# Rudy Fernandez Statistical Rankings in Spain



## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Ok Here is how Rudy Ranks in his league which is considered the 2nd best league in the world. They actually have a ton of stats I don't understand so I only posted the ones that are pertinent as well as the overall ranking.

Enjoy

Looking at the league Leaders Here are Rudy's rankings (number in parenthesis indicates league leaders numbers)

Overall
#2 @22.4 (#1 24.7)

Scoring
#1 @18.1ppg 

Assists
#5 @4.24apg (#1 4.88)

3pt attempts per game
#1 @ 2.69

Free Throw Attempts per Game
#3 @ 4.62 per Game (#1 5.13)

Free Throw Percentage
#3 @ 96.8% 60 of 62 (#1 100% 35 of 35)

Fouls Drawn
#8 @ 66 (#1 106)


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

BTW THe Assist numbers in Europe are way lower than in the NBA here is their guideline for how and when to score assists

ASSISTS
•
Give an Assist ONLY after a successful shot. Shot is missed then no Assist
•
Only the last pass counts for an Assist. Credit Assist to last passer before the score
•
Only one Assist per score
•
Not every last pass before a score counts as an Assist
•
An Assist does not have to be a spectacular pass
•
Every spectacular pass is not automatically an Assist
CRITERIA FOR ASSISTS
•
If the pass creates the score = Assist
•
If the shooter creates the score = No Assist
•
The scorer cannot be credited with an Assist – a pass must lead to the score
•
The scoring shot must be made directly from the pass
•
No other significant action by the Scorer can take place eg fake, drive etc
•
If the scorer dribbles once or twice before an open lay-up or dunk, then an Assist can
still be credited to the passer (eg on a fast-break, or long outlet pass leading directly
to a score


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## crowTrobot (Jun 24, 2005)

where does he rank in dunks by a guard? :biggrin:


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## yuyuza1 (May 24, 2006)

Schilly said:


> Scoring
> #11 @18.1ppg (#1 24.7)


This says he ranks #1 in scoring. I think the 24.7 value is Marc Gasol's efficiency or "Ranking" as they have it. I'm looking at the "Máximo anotador" stats for points. Rudy ranks #1 at 18.1, and the second best is Jaka Lakovic, at 16.6.


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## HispanicCausinPanic (Jul 2, 2005)

How can Rudy....BRoy.....Travis....and Baby Kobe survive together? Are there enough minutes?


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

yuyuza1 said:


> This says he ranks #1 in scoring. I think the 24.7 value is Marc Gasol's efficiency or "Ranking" as they have it. I'm looking at the "Máximo anotador" stats for points. Rudy ranks #1 at 18.1, and the second best is Jaka Lakovic, at 16.6.


My Typo on that one he is leading the league in scoring


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## yuyuza1 (May 24, 2006)

Schilly said:


> My Typo on that one he is leading the league in scoring


No big deal! Great work on the stats and assist info.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

HispanicCausinPanic said:


> How can Rudy....BRoy.....Travis....and Baby Kobe survive together? Are there enough minutes?


I think if you consider that Rudy is #5 in the league in assists getting 4.24 per game, and then factor the assist scoring method he probably is closer to 7 or 8 per game by NBA standards, you can take the Distributing nature of Both Rudy and Roy and start them together. Basically we have 2 combo guards that are very good distributors of the ball unlike most combo guards. Roy excels in breaking down and offense Rudy excels at catch and quick release shooting as well as breaking to the basket without the ball.

You start Roy and RUdy in the back-court with Martel at the 3. Travis comes off the bench at the 3 and 4. Blak comes in off the bench in a 3 guard rotaiton for ROy, Rudy, Blake with our other younge guys getting spot minutes like they do now.


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## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

HispanicCausinPanic said:


> How can Rudy....BRoy.....Travis....and Baby Kobe survive together? Are there enough minutes?


if we get rid of worthless Jarret Jack. I really like the idea of an awesome package with Jack and Travis who's value is extremely high to move up for someone like Eric Gordon in the draft, but I know that wouldn't be everyone's favorite deal or anything. 

Blake/Sergio
Roy/Fernandez
Webster/Outlaw


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## LameR (Jan 4, 2004)

darkhelmit54 said:


> if we get rid of worthless Jarret Jack. I really like the idea of an awesome package with Jack and Travis who's value is extremely high to move up for someone like Eric Gordon in the draft, but I know that wouldn't be everyone's favorite deal or anything.
> 
> Blake/Sergio
> Roy/Fernandez
> Webster/Outlaw


For someone who's worthless, he sure has been huge in at least 5 or so of the wins in the last month. We don't win the Chicago game without his D on Gordon (shut him down in OT), and clutch plays on O. I'm not a huge fan, but give credit where credit is due. Jack is far from worthless. 

Just because you think Sergio and Martell deserve more minutes doesn't mean Jack is worthless and Travis should be traded.


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

LameR said:


> For someone who's worthless, he sure has been huge in at least 5 or so of the wins in the last month. We don't win the Chicago game without his D on Gordon (shut him down in OT), and clutch plays on O. I'm not a huge fan, but give credit where credit is due. Jack is far from worthless.
> 
> Just because you think Sergio and Martell deserve more minutes doesn't mean Jack is worthless and Travis should be traded.



I agree.

When and if Rudy joins the team he may well take Jack's role. He might even be the starter with Blake moving to the bench. I'm content to let KP burn that bridge when he comes to it. For now, Jack is earning his minutes.

As for Outlaw vs Webster....I have been cautious, even skeptical about Outlaw's improvement. Nonetheless, I see no evidence that Webster is the superior player. People have referenced the fact that Webster is developing faster than Outlaw did - but given their relative draft positions, I would bloody well hope he is! On top of that, they aren't really in competition. Outlaw is a 4/3, while Webster is a 3/2. Webster wants to start, while Outlaw prefers coming off the bench. What's the problem?


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## pablinho (Sep 8, 2006)

I will translate for you


RANkING ACB = efficiency ranking ACB > Leader > Marc Gasol 24,7 Rudy Fernandez > #2 22,4
Maximo Anotador = Max scorer > Leader > Rudy Fernandez 18,1 Rudy Fernandez > #1
Máximo reboteador = Max rebounder > Leader > Borchardt, Curtis 9,9 Rudy Fernandez > 2,9
Asistencias = assists > Leader Rodríguez, Javi 4,8> Rudy Fernandez > #5 4,4
Tapones = blocks > Leader > Asselin, Josh 2,0 Rudy Fernandez > 0,1
Recuperaciones = steals > Leader > Ricky Rubio 2,4 Rudy Fernandez > #4 2,0 
Tiros de 3 = Three FG > Leader > Rudy Fernandez 40% Rudy Fernandez> #1 with 2,63 threes per game
Tiros de 2 = Two FG > Leader > Douglas, Rubén 69% Rudy Fernandez> 56%
Tiros libres = FT > Leader > Marc Gasol 71 % with 5,13 FTs made per game Rudy > #3 96% with 4,62 FTs made per game
Perdidas = TO > Leader > Thomas, Chris 3,5 Rudy Fernandez > 1,7



These are the important stats


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## aaabbbccc (Aug 26, 2006)

Schilly said:


> Ok Here is how Rudy Ranks in his league which is considered the 2nd best league in the world. They actually have a ton of stats I don't understand so I only posted the ones that are pertinent as well as the overall ranking.
> 
> Enjoy
> 
> ...


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

I can't wait for Rudy. I think he will be a great replacement for Jack. 



As for the Chicago game, Blake plays as good of defense if not better than Jack. Saying he was the difference in that game is incorrect. In fact it was James Jones who stole the ball from Gordon at the end. Jack simply botched the fast break attempt and was fortunately fouled and made the free throw.


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## Iwatas (Aug 3, 2003)

I am very excited about Rudy on this team! Sure is going to make Jack redundant and unhappy, though....

iWatas


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

So, if you put Jack or Blake on Rudy's Spanish team, do they put up Rudy type stats? I don't think so.

I think our starting guards will be Roy and Rudy. They will raise all kinds of hell and mismatches in the nba.


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## moldorf (Jun 29, 2007)

It may be premature to 'put' Rudy in a Blazer's uniform next season.

While it seems rather likely, it's not a done deal. And there are reports that 2 or 3 European teams planning on offering him 3 or 4 times the money that he'd make on a rookie scale contract in the NBA. 

He's 22 and his mind could still be changed by that kind of money.


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

Great stuff Schilly. Thanks!

I hope Rudy plays on our summer league team this offseason.


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## Resume (Jul 17, 2007)

Iwatas said:


> I am very excited about Rudy on this team! Sure is going to make Jack redundant and unhappy, though....
> 
> iWatas


Good. I hope Jack wants to be traded then. Jack and our 1st round pick for a lottery pick.


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## LameR (Jan 4, 2004)

Resume said:


> Good. I hope Jack wants to be traded then. Jack and our 1st round pick for a lottery pick.


I don't know if getting even younger is a great idea. Also, given this draft, I don't know if that would get us a lotto pick.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

I really want to see Rudy here as well. The big question I have, is how effective he is without the ball in his hands. If you look at his all-around stats - who does it remind you of? For me it screams "Brandon Roy"...

So, the big question is - is he effective without the ball in his hands? If so - he is the perfect 2nd guard next to Brandon. This leaves us to think who we want to man the 2nd team? 

Sergio and Blake will work very well if Sergio can become an offensive threat and shoot properly, he will handle the ball, break the defense and Blake can hit the long-ball. If he can not - we have no real penetration and Jack should be the 2nd team penetrating guard next to either Blake or Sergio. We have seen that Jack and Blake can work effectively together (during pre-season), and Sergio and Jack can work well together as well (as they have done multiple times in the 2nd team.

Now, backtrack and think what happens if Rudy, like Roy, is not nearly as effective without the ball in his hands. In this case - we can continue with the starting unit of Roy/Blake - but the question is - will Sergio be effective in the 2nd unit without the ball in his hands? It does not seem to work very well with Roy - so why would it work with Rudy?


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

LameR said:


> I don't know if getting even younger is a great idea. Also, given this draft, I don't know if that would get us a lotto pick.


But we won't be getting younger. Every other player on the team, with the exception of the hypothetical lottery pick, will be a year older, and more importantly, wiser. :biggrin: Heck, if we were to draft a senior, he would be older than several of our current players. 

With Rudy coming in Jack is probably expendable. Trading Jack with our pick for a better pick would be a good solution, IMO. Even if the pick is in a future draft. Or maybe we just trade out of the draft all together if there is no one left Pritchard deems worthy of displacing a current player.

But there is a lot of time for Pritchard to figure all that out.

:cheers:


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## Iwatas (Aug 3, 2003)

I feel certain that Rudy will sign over the summer with Portland. Money is money, but the Blazers will be contending for the NBA championship in the next few years, and any fool can see that the team is a LOT of fun to be on right now. I'd be shocked if Rudy would not take a haircut to be a part of it.

iWatas


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

yeah, Rudy likely can make more money next year in Europe. 

but he's probably going to look a little at the big picture. the sooner he gets to the NBA, the sooner he starts on his NBA rookie contract. the sooner that contract is over, the sooner he can start making the serious NBA cheddar. 

if he stays in Europe every year, he'll probably make at most $3-$4 mil. over a 12 year career, that's potentially $40-$48 million. 

Darius Miles will make more than that, if he hasn't already, if he quit today. Roy, Oden and Aldridge could easily double, maybe triple that money (if not more) by the time their careers are over. 

if Rudy is like most hyper-competitors, he probably feels like he's just as good as Wade or Carmello, and wants to get making the serious dough those guys are making as fast as possible. (obviously, I don't think he's anywhere that good. but what I think doesn't matter. it's what he thinks that does.) 

if it comes down to just money, and Rudy doesn't have any health issues where he needs to think short-term, I don't see why he'd stay in Europe. it's the same calculus that has guys like Ginobili, Khryapa and Kirelenko here. the NBA is where the money is.

oh, and it doesn't hurt to go work for one of the richest men on the planet.


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## Stepping Razor (Apr 24, 2004)

For what it's worth, somewhere I saw Sergio quoted as saying that Rudy is desperate to play in the NBA and will definitely come over as soon as he can, regardless of the money. Hopefully that's true.

Stepping Razor


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## gatorpops (Dec 17, 2004)

andalusian said:


> I really want to see Rudy here as well. The big question I have, is how effective he is without the ball in his hands. If you look at his all-around stats - who does it remind you of? For me it screams "Brandon Roy"...
> 
> So, the big question is - is he effective without the ball in his hands? If so - he is the perfect 2nd guard next to Brandon. This leaves us to think who we want to man the 2nd team?
> 
> ...


Have you seen Rudy and Sergio as quards together on the Spanish National team? They were at times sensationl. There is absolutly no reason to think they couldn't work excellent together. 

gatorpops


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

gatorpops said:


> Have you seen Rudy and Sergio as quards together on the Spanish National team? They were at times sensationl. There is absolutly no reason to think they couldn't work excellent together.


There are a lot of differences between the international play and the NBA play - so I am not ready to take this experience and project it on the very different NBA game. Remember, Sergio is not known for his D and Rudy is a lightweight that could struggle with this as well. Do you really want to play 2 guards against the big, strong guards of the NBA that are questionable in their defense? No disrespect to these guys, since I am a fan and want to see them succeed, but this could be the 2nd coming of the Randolph/Curry pairing - only on the perimeter... 

Remember, if we were able to project international basketball success on the NBA - Sarunas Jasikevicius would have been an NBA MVP (instead of the leading cheerleader on the Golden States bench - and that's his most memorable success from a rather sad 3 or 4 year NBA career).


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

Sergio, Rudy, Jones/Travis/Frye and Joel will annhilate other teams' second units. That's my rose-colored vision, and I'm sticking to it. :biggrin:


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## gatorpops (Dec 17, 2004)

andalusian said:


> There are a lot of differences between the international play and the NBA play - so I am not ready to take this experience and project it on the very different NBA game. Remember, Sergio is not known for his D and Rudy is a lightweight that could struggle with this as well. Do you really want to play 2 guards against the big, strong guards of the NBA that are questionable in their defense? No disrespect to these guys, since I am a fan and want to see them succeed, but this could be the 2nd coming of the Randolph/Curry pairing - only on the perimeter...
> 
> Remember, if we were able to project international basketball success on the NBA - Sarunas Jasikevicius would have been an NBA MVP (instead of the leading cheerleader on the Golden States bench - and that's his most memorable success from a rather sad 3 or 4 year NBA career).


Two years ago what happened to the USA "team" in international competition? They lost. That Spanish Team was better. Sergio was wonderful and so was Rudy. I think he will translate to the NBA. I believe that Rudy is about Steve Blakes size, or maybe Rick Hamilton. They do fairly well and Rudy has more skills and athletisism than both I think.

gatorpops


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

gatorpops said:


> Two years ago what happened to the USA "team" in international competition? They lost. That Spanish Team was better. Sergio was wonderful and so was Rudy. I think he will translate to the NBA. I believe that Rudy is about Steve Blakes size, or maybe Rick Hamilton. They do fairly well and Rudy has more skills and athletisism than both I think.


Rudy is taller and lighter than Steve Blake. The Spanish and USA teams played international basketball using international rules. I hope it will translate to the NBA as well - but I am not sure that keeping both of them on the court at the same time, until they improve their defense, is a smart thing to do. Time will tell - but it seems to me that most of the optimism about Rudy is based on his offense (pretty much the same with Sergio) - and we already see that Sergio struggles with NBA defense - so pairing him with another rookie that might struggle on D is something that can be a real issue.

Please remember that I was one that called the Zach trade a good value because I believed (and still do) that Rudy is the best piece we got from this trade (not that I do not like JJ and Frye) - and I know that the current success of the team can change everyone's expectations - but reality has a way to catch you sooner or later - and while I hope that the Blazers go undefeated from here until Mr. Oden chooses to retire since he ran out of fingers, toes, nostrils and belly buttons to keep all his rings - I do expect Rudy to struggle with defense when he comes over - and while I have a lot of hope that Sergio can become a good shooter, aggressively getting to the line and playing better defense - so we can enjoy his court vision and ball handling gifts - I am willing to admit that it might not happen...


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## gatorpops (Dec 17, 2004)

andalusian said:


> Rudy is taller and lighter than Steve Blake. The Spanish and USA teams played international basketball using international rules. I hope it will translate to the NBA as well - but I am not sure that keeping both of them on the court at the same time, until they improve their defense, is a smart thing to do. Time will tell - but it seems to me that most of the optimism about Rudy is based on his offense (pretty much the same with Sergio) - and we already see that Sergio struggles with NBA defense - so pairing him with another rookie that might struggle on D is something that can be a real issue.
> 
> Please remember that I was one that called the Zach trade a good value because I believed (and still do) that Rudy is the best piece we got from this trade (not that I do not like JJ and Frye) - and I know that the current success of the team can change everyone's expectations - but reality has a way to catch you sooner or later - and while I hope that the Blazers go undefeated from here until Mr. Oden chooses to retire since he ran out of fingers, toes, nostrils and belly buttons to keep all his rings - I do expect Rudy to struggle with defense when he comes over - and while I have a lot of hope that Sergio can become a good shooter, aggressively getting to the line and playing better defense - so we can enjoy his court vision and ball handling gifts - I am willing to admit that it might not happen...


I don't know what coaches are say what, but someone on the coaching team is coming up with some good ideas to play defense now and inparticular, "keeping the guys infront of you" concept and it has been working. I believe that in the last several games we have done a good job of that and strange as it may seem, the out side shooting of many players that are supposed to be excelent outside shooters have had very poor games. IMO Rudy can do that even better than SB and JJ. He is longer and quicker. I do believe it will take a few to maybe half a season for Rudy to get there. But it will help to have a big guy inside that can help if he fails. Sometimes you have to play a better offensive player becasue he just produces so much more than he gives up in defense. (Actually I believe that Sergio might be that kind of player also. Of course it does depend on the match ups. Anyway, we agree that Rudy was a great "find" for Zack along with Jones and Frye. That trade will IMO go down as a very significant benifit for the years of Blazers success in furture years. Go Blazers.
Wow, a guy could get all excited if he keeps thinking on these kind of things.:clap2:
gatorpops


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

gatorpops said:


> IMO Rudy can do that even better than SB and JJ. He is longer and quicker.


JJ's defense of Ben Gordon won us the Chicago game. I doubt Sergio could do that at this point and I suspect it will take Rudy a while to be able to do that as well.



gatorpops said:


> I do believe it will take a few to maybe half a season for Rudy to get there. But it will help to have a big guy inside that can help if he fails.


Help against penetration? Yes (as long as he stays out of foul problems). Help against good outside shooting (where Ben Gordon, for example, does most of his damage) - no.



gatorpops said:


> Sometimes you have to play a better offensive player becasue he just produces so much more than he gives up in defense.


The same could be said about Zach, I suppose...

More seriously, you are right. Sometime a player's offensive contributions are worth some lacks of his defense (once again, Ben Gordon is a very example of this) - but can you consistently do it with 2 defensive liability guys? All I am saying is that anyone that thinks that a Sergio/Rudy pairing is a sure thing should really wonder if they can co-exist for long stretches of time until their Defense improves.



gatorpops said:


> Anyway, we agree that Rudy was a great "find" for Zack along with Jones and Frye. That trade will IMO go down as a very significant benifit for the years of Blazers success in furture years. Go Blazers.


Yes, it would. I just hope that Rudy can be effective without the ball in his hands - so he can play extended minutes next to Roy. If this does not happen - Sergio could see problems with his play-time as much as Jack does, despite the euphoria that Jack haters thinks Rudy's arrival will do to his minutes...


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## gatorpops (Dec 17, 2004)

andalusian said:


> More seriously, you are right. Sometime a player's offensive contributions are worth some lacks of his defense (once again, Ben Gordon is a very example of this) - but can you consistently do it with 2 defensive liability guys? All I am saying is that anyone that thinks that a Sergio/Rudy pairing is a sure thing should really wonder if they can co-exist for long stretches of time until their Defense improves.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it would. I just hope that Rudy can be effective without the ball in his hands - so he can play extended minutes next to Roy. If this does not happen - Sergio could see problems with his play-time as much as Jack does, despite the euphoria that Jack haters thinks Rudy's arrival will do to his minutes...


Two things: The JJ I was reffering to was Jack, not Jones as you were reffering to. Sorry about that. 
Secondly, the Rudy I have seen play (in IN ball) is very caplable of playing without the ball and is one of the cheif reasons that I like him so much. He just is an all around player. 

I do agree that if he works on his strength where his body is similare to Roy's he will be a phonminal player. In all the playing that I have seen of him he does not have an egocntric bone in his body and should fit marvelously with this team.

gatorpops


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## decapod (Dec 11, 2006)

gatorpops said:


> Two years ago what happened to the USA "team" in international competition? They lost. That Spanish Team was better. Sergio was wonderful and so was Rudy. I think he will translate to the NBA. I believe that Rudy is about Steve Blakes size, or maybe Rick Hamilton. They do fairly well and Rudy has more skills and athletisism than both I think.
> 
> gatorpops


More skills than Hamilton?! No way. He is a poor's mans Hamilton, and yes, he plays very well off the ball.

If Pritchard thinks slashing ability is a must in the second unit, I think he could keep Jack, stronger than Rudy, or trade for a slashing forward that fits that bill. I have my doubts about Rudy getting to the rim in the NBA. He had problems doing that in spanish league last years in a regular basis, due to frailness and not superb-dribling skills (NOT BAD, anyway), although he has improved and this season has evolved into a force. Also, he is probably a better passer than JJ.

Sergio compared him somewhere to Kevin Martin, and that's not a bad comparison.

Nevertheless, that option (keeping Jack) would be detrimental for the development of Sergio, and it has to be seen if that role is more important than off- the ball game & sharp-shooting, although Webster provides some perimeter shooting. 

Rudy is far ahead Sergio in terms of defensive skills. He is a decent defender at NBA level at the very least.

It's pretty interesting to see what Prichard is going to do in the offseason regarding to the guard position.

And I don't see Rudy becoming stronger anytime soon. But Reggie Miller, Kevin Martin, Rip Hamilton and Tayshaun Prince are/were not flukes in the league. 

Sorry for my poor english.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

That's perfectly fine English, Decapod, not to worry.

I'm really enjoying this discussion about Fernandez and how and where he's likely to struggle and excel. Some questions for those who've followed him more closely than I've been able to:

1. He clearly works well with the ball in his hands. Is it too much of a stretch to think that he might be able to play PG in the second unit (with someone like Webster at SG, as opposed to a combo guard like Jack) or should we be thinking of him fairly exclusively as a 2 with good ball-handling skills?

2. Expanding from question #1, what about keeping both Roy and Fernandez as "point" SGs, so they both handle the ball a lot but keep Blake starting with Roy and Jack starting with Fernandez?

3. Some people have talked about him potentially playing SF. Myself, I don't see it -- he seems too small. Am I wrong?


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## Ukrainefan (Aug 1, 2003)

Actually, Decapod,your English is great. Much better than my Russian.


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## gatorpops (Dec 17, 2004)

decapod said:


> More skills than Hamilton?! No way. He is a poor's mans Hamilton, and yes, he plays very well off the ball.
> 
> If Pritchard thinks slashing ability is a must in the second unit, I think he could keep Jack, stronger than Rudy, or trade for a slashing forward that fits that bill. I have my doubts about Rudy getting to the rim in the NBA. He had problems doing that in spanish league last years in a regular basis, due to frailness and not superb-dribling skills (NOT BAD, anyway), although he has improved and this season has evolved into a force. Also, he is probably a better passer than JJ.
> 
> ...


You misunderstood my contention. Not that Rudy and Hamilton and Blake, are similar style of players, but that they are similar in size and their size has not been a detriment to their playing in the NBA. 
They compensate for their lack of weight and strength with speed or quickness, and in Hamilton's case, persistence. Their coaches use them to their strengths and that makes them good. 

Rudy would do the same and he brings I believe, a different aspect to the team. The abillity to play off the ball, much like Bobby Gross did in the Championship year. This gives the Blazers the "back door threat" that they seldom use now and "lobs to the rim" that they do not get with either Blake or Jack. I think Rudy will get to the rim, not like Roy, with strenght and quickness, but by 6moving without the ball and giving Roy and others another target to hit for the easy score. Manu does that for SA because he looses his man and is in position to score. I think Rudy will do that as well. They will have to respect him for the outside shot and that allways makes it easier to lose your man and get to the rim.

By the way, your English is just fine, better than mine and your spelling is better too. Thanks for posting.

gatorpops


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

decapod said:


> Sergio compared him somewhere to Kevin Martin, and that's not a bad comparison.


really nice post. that's an interesting comparison. it's pretty easy to imagine a Kevin Martin playing next to Roy. in fact, he could be just about perfect. 

the parallels between the Billups/Hamilton back court and a Roy/Rudy back court seem pretty obvious. Billups is shorter and has a far better perimeter shot than Roy, but aside from that it looks very, very familiar. 

man, I hope Rudy just lives up to the Euro stats.


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## alext42083 (Nov 7, 2003)

The one quality that Jack provides that I don't think Sergio/Rudy/Blake provide is his defense on those big scoring guards like Billups, Gordon, Deron, Chris Paul, AI, Baron.

That is why I think Nate goes to him so much in the fourth quarter instead of Blake. If the Blazers do get rid of Jack, they better make sure they get a guard who can D up. I'm not so sure how much a defender Rudy is.
And you don't Brandon Roy having to spend all his energy on defense.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

My thoughts on Rudy.

I think he will struggle for the first half of the season in the NBA. Adjusting to how fouls are called, speed of the game, and the language will take a while.

That being said, i think after the all-star break, Rudy will have earned his starting spot. The guy is a phenominal shooter in any league, a very smart and underrated defensive player, and really good away from the ball, and a phenominal passer. You can't hold him down for long. 

I really hope he doesn't take away from Jack's minutes though, i really really want to resign everyone on the team, and not bring in and Draft picks, FA, or trades...

in my opinion, our future lineup will look like this.. one of the 2.

Roy | Blake | Sergio
Rudy | Jack | Roy
Webster | Outlaw | Jones
Aldridge | Frye | Outlaw
Oden | Pryzbilla

or

Blake | Sergio | Jack
Roy | Webster | Jack
Fernandez | Outlaw | Jones
Aldridge | Frye | Outlaw
Oden | Pryzbilla

I really feel halfway through the season Rudy will have earned his starting job, so barring injuries i feel one of those will be our line ups. If we keep this team together, liek i've said many times before, a championship will be here within 3-4 years. With teams gettin' older, and our youngest team in the NBA staying together, gelling, getting better... it is unavoidable.

GO BLAZERS!


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## decapod (Dec 11, 2006)

PorterIn2004 said:


> That's perfectly fine English, Decapod, not to worry.
> 
> I'm really enjoying this discussion about Fernandez and how and where he's likely to struggle and excel. Some questions for those who've followed him more closely than I've been able to:
> 
> ...



1&2&3


Well, he has the ability to create off the dribble and feed the open teammate or the big man using pick'n rolls, and his court vision is awesome for a shooting guard, but he is a shooting guard. He has never been used playing point guard, and sometimes he played the three position (more in spanish NT than DKV Joventut), although I think he could be more suited to play next to a big guard like Roy more than small forward at NBA level. In that last case I think Roy would be switched to the three. With Roy playing combo guard I think Rudy would fit very well . All in all, his primary role is shooting guard.

There would be a little hole on D, because Rudy is a good defender, but it's probably to much for him to defend the speedy point guards in the league, and Roy don't have to put all his effort at the defensive end, but at the end you have Oden, Przybilla, Aldridge, and some other sevenfooters that hopefully develop into quality defensive players (.:thinking2: McBobb, Channing, Freeland) to patrol the paint.

As I stated the previous post, he is no Ginobili-esque slasher. Ginobili is stronger, and by far a more creative ball handler. By the way I think Roy is the most ginobili-esque player in Portland.


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## gatorpops (Dec 17, 2004)

decapod said:


> 1&2&3
> 
> 
> Well, he has the ability to create off the dribble and feed the open teammate or the big man using pick'n rolls, and his court vision is awesome for a shooting guard, but he is a shooting guard. He has never been used playing point guard, and sometimes he played the three position (more in spanish NT than DKV Joventut), although I think he could be more suited to play next to a big guard like Roy more than small forward at NBA level. In that last case I think Roy would be switched to the three. With Roy playing combo guard I think Rudy would fit very well . All in all, his primary role is shooting guard.
> ...


I agree, Roy is the most like Ginobili. 

A question for you Decapod, do you get to watch very many NBA games in Spain? We don't get many Euro games here. 


gatorpops


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## decapod (Dec 11, 2006)

gatorpops said:


> I agree, Roy is the most like Ginobili.
> 
> A question for you Decapod, do you get to watch very many NBA games in Spain? We don't get many Euro games here.
> 
> ...


We can see one game daily (suscribing), and one game weekly televised in national TV (free). In both cases, specially the last, the games are more frequently grizzlies-vs (choose the opponent) or raptors vs(choose the opponent. Spanish players followers are a important piece of TV-cheese. Hell!!, I follow closely Sergio and the blazers :biggrin:

The timing for watching live the broadcast is not good if you have to work or study next morning. If you watch live the daily NBA game in a regular basis your life could become something disfunctional. Nevertheless, we got a lot of basketball freaks in Spain . I believe I see more NBA games than ACB (spanish league) games. I see about 35 NBA games per season (usually not live). In TV, the NCAA Final Four live is also broadcasted live, and the *ENTIRE* March Madness can be watched during the summer (not in March but it's something :biggrin.

Also, you can see the games through internet streaming.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

decapod said:


> We can see one game daily (suscribing), and one game weekly televised in national TV (free). In both cases, specially the last, the games are more frequently grizzlies-vs (choose the opponent) or raptors vs(choose the opponent. Spanish players followers are a important piece of TV-cheese. Hell!!, I follow closely Sergio and the blazers :biggrin:


I imagine that with Rudy coming over and Sergio possibly getting a bigger role, you might be seeing more of blazers-vs (choose opponent).


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## pablinho (Sep 8, 2006)

gatorpops said:


> I agree, Roy is the most like Ginobili.
> 
> A question for you Decapod, do you get to watch very many NBA games in Spain? We don't get many Euro games here.
> 
> ...



dude we also have internet massively, like 90 % spanish population have internet, and its not hard find some pages hacking NBALP, you know what i mean, in the end we can see all the Portland games in the next day of game.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

decapod said:


> We can see one game daily (suscribing), and one game weekly televised in national TV (free). In both cases, specially the last, the games are more frequently grizzlies-vs (choose the opponent) or raptors vs(choose the opponent. Spanish players followers are a important piece of TV-cheese. Hell!!, I follow closely Sergio and the blazers :biggrin:
> 
> The timing for watching live the broadcast is not good if you have to work or study next morning. If you watch live the daily NBA game in a regular basis your life could become something disfunctional. Nevertheless, we got a lot of basketball freaks in Spain . I believe I see more NBA games than ACB (spanish league) games. I see about 35 NBA games per season (usually not live). In TV, the NCAA Final Four live is also broadcasted live, and the *ENTIRE* March Madness can be watched during the summer (not in March but it's something :biggrin.
> 
> Also, you can see the games through internet streaming.


Do you think there are so many "basketball freaks" in Spain because basketball has become a very popular sport long-term in Spain as in the U.S., or is it mostly because Spain has had such a freakin awesome national team recently?


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

Masbee said:


> Do you think there are so many "basketball freaks" in Spain because basketball has become a very popular sport long-term in Spain as in the U.S., or is it mostly because Spain has had such a freakin awesome national team recently?


interesting question. I wonder how much of an impact the Barcelona olympics had too.


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## Spud147 (Jul 15, 2005)

LameR said:


> For someone who's worthless, he sure has been huge in at least 5 or so of the wins in the last month. We don't win the Chicago game without his D on Gordon (shut him down in OT), and clutch plays on O. I'm not a huge fan, but give credit where credit is due. Jack is far from worthless.
> 
> Just because you think Sergio and Martell deserve more minutes doesn't mean Jack is worthless and Travis should be traded.


Thank you LameR! Given that the team is 16 and 1 in the last 17 why do people want to touch this team right now?!? 

Jack may not be Jason Kidd but he's certainly a huge part of this amazing team chemistry. He knows his role and is doing it without complaining. 

Getting more "talent" isn't necessarily an upgrade in this case! Did we learn nothing from the Whitsett experiment?


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## Spud147 (Jul 15, 2005)

mediocre man said:


> I can't wait for Rudy. I think he will be a great replacement for Jack.
> 
> 
> 
> As for the Chicago game, Blake plays as good of defense if not better than Jack. Saying he was the difference in that game is incorrect. In fact it was James Jones who stole the ball from Gordon at the end. Jack simply botched the fast break attempt and was fortunately fouled and made the free throw.


This is another one of those times where I feel like I'm watching a completely different player! To me, Jack was huge in that double OT win and it wasn't just one play at the end. It was a bunch of plays (especially on the defense) at the end! I don't think the Blazers would have won that game without him.


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## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

andalusian said:


> There are a lot of differences between the international play and the NBA play - so I am not ready to take this experience and project it on the very different NBA game. Remember, Sergio is not known for his D and Rudy is a lightweight that could struggle with this as well. Do you really want to play 2 guards against the big, strong guards of the NBA that are questionable in their defense? No disrespect to these guys, since I am a fan and want to see them succeed, but this could be the 2nd coming of the Randolph/Curry pairing - only on the perimeter...
> 
> Remember, if we were able to project international basketball success on the NBA - Sarunas Jasikevicius would have been an NBA MVP (instead of the leading cheerleader on the Golden States bench - and that's his most memorable success from a rather sad 3 or 4 year NBA career).


Sergio and Rudy have excellent chemistry together on give and go's and Rudy is incredible at cutting in position to score and be passed to. He also loves to cut backdoor. Rudy plays with Ricky Rubio right now and he's as much of a ball-dominating player as anyone. You guys are getting way too hung up on "needing the ball", it's not that big of a deal if the player can shoot, then he has something to offer in floor spacing when he doesn't have it.

I will play two small guards anytime with Oden, Aldridge or Pryz behind them. Rudy, Sergio, and Pryz are the backbones of our new white unit that throttles the pace and outquicks the opposition with extremely aggressive play after they're worn down by our steady and calculated starters. I think we could give them twenty minutes of burn together (10 in first, 10 in second), with roy playing a little more passive at three when in, Martell getting some minutes at 3, and Outlaw in there at 3/4 with em. As far as the Zach and Eddy BS, these guys are not baseline players, they run all over the court wreaking havoc, positioning and floor space are the least of their worries.

As far as Sarunas goes he was too slow for the NBA game, fairly simple. He wasn't effective executing or defending pick and rolls and wasn't used to his strengths, Rudy and Sergio are both more than quick and athletic enough.


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## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

andalusian said:


> JJ's defense of Ben Gordon won us the Chicago game. I doubt Sergio could do that at this point and I suspect it will take Rudy a while to be able to do that as well.


James Jones? He was the guy playing good defense out there. Jarret played decent D but Gordon still got his, he just ran out of gas at the end. Get real.




andalusian said:


> Help against penetration? Yes (as long as he stays out of foul problems). Help against good outside shooting (where Ben Gordon, for example, does most of his damage) - no.


I'll take my chances with a team shooting outside jumpers on us all day w/o penetration. Our guards will be able to play pretty close and gamble a lot on steals because we have Aldridge, Oden, Pryzbilla, and Outlaw behind us who are all quick enough to get to players in the mid-range game.



andalusian said:


> More seriously, you are right. Sometime a player's offensive contributions are worth some lacks of his defense (once again, Ben Gordon is a very example of this) - but can you consistently do it with 2 defensive liability guys? All I am saying is that anyone that thinks that a Sergio/Rudy pairing is a sure thing should really wonder if they can co-exist for long stretches of time until their Defense improves.


Whatever dude, I'd rather have the steals and quickness of a weaker backcourt that can run on the swings around the perimeter, than some big slow old 2-guard that's a good shooter but can barely move. Do we really need physical 2-guards to bang guys on the outside, no one's gonna try posting us up with Oden and Aldridge and Pryz underneath.



andalusian said:


> Yes, it would. I just hope that Rudy can be effective without the ball in his hands - so he can play extended minutes next to Roy. If this does not happen - Sergio could see problems with his play-time as much as Jack does, despite the euphoria that Jack haters thinks Rudy's arrival will do to his minutes...


He plays with Rick freaking Rubio right now! Get over your favorite phrase "ball in his hands". I'm really surprised you didn't work in a Ben Gordon comparison here. (who needs the ball in his hands and probably wouldn't work with Roy)


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

darkhelmit54 said:


> As far as Sarunas goes he was too slow for the NBA game, fairly simple. He wasn't effective executing or defending pick and rolls and wasn't used to his strengths, Rudy and Sergio are both more than quick and athletic enough.


True, but using the same token, Rudy is a lightweight and might not be strong enough for a while in the NBA.

Granted, strength is something that is much easier to add (to a degree) than becoming faster - but at the start of his NBA career Rudy could face some hurdles that people are ignoring and should not.

I love that we got Rudy, I love his potential - but there are no short-cuts in the NBA and with very few exceptions (LeBron) - it takes some time to get up to speed as we have already seen with guys like Webster, Outlaw and definitely Sergio. I expect both Rudy and (to a lesser degree) Greg to take some time to get up to speed.

More on international basketball - it is still very hard to say that someone that is very successful there will be equally successful here. If you do not like the Saras example - look at Anthony Parker. Parker was, during his time in Tel-Aviv, as close to an MJ like dominant SG as Europe has seen. He is a good player and works pretty well for Toronto - but he is not even close to being the same dominant, athletic SG as he was in Europe. You have to remember that Parker has a much more "NBA body" than Rudy does and more experience than Rudy in the NBA. On the other hand, Rudy is younger, so hopefully he will find it easier to adjust.


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## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

andalusian said:


> True, but using the same token, Rudy is a lightweight and might not be strong enough for a while in the NBA.
> 
> Granted, strength is something that is much easier to add (to a degree) than becoming faster - but at the start of his NBA career Rudy could face some hurdles that people are ignoring and should not.
> 
> ...


Rudy has excelled in a wide variety of ways and at a wide variety of levels while being very young, unlike Webster and Outlaw, he's been playing against older and more experienced players for a long time, unlike Webster, Outlaw, Roy, Oden, Aldridge, and almost everyone else on the team so that basic phase of adjustment he's used to. This is harder for a traditional NBA player because they've always "been the best", Rudy is used to working his way in. He was the MVP of Kings Cup at 18 and has contributed a lot in the olympics and other very big competitions and has been on the draft radar for years. He is a great basketball player, there will be an adjustment period but there's no reason to think he won't work here. He is a better cutter and shooter than Jack and with bigs like Oden and Aldridge you need as many cutters/shooters as you can have to maximize their space and put them in position to succeed. JACK DOES NOT MOVE W/O THE BALL. Have you ever seen Rudy highlights? Half of them are highlights of him going backdoor and catching and shooting, PERFECT. Rudy is great on the break too. Jack would probably do well in international play as he could outmuscle other players and draw fouls, but what we're needing in a player is Rudy's strengths. The international players that don't do well normally are just more athletic or bigger than the other Euros and score cheap buckets because of it then get to the NBA against athletic and bigger players and struggle, this is not the case with Rudy.

And BTW Anthony Parker was not as close to Jordan as you could get, that's a load of crap. He was well thought of but there would of been all tons of hype on him if that was the case. Anthony Parker was a good player, playing in Europe, against inferior competition. And he never usually averaged about 15 a game over there, Jordan...right. Check out his profile page:
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/anthony_parker/bio.html


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

darkhelmit54 said:


> James Jones? He was the guy playing good defense out there. Jarret played decent D but Gordon still got his, he just ran out of gas at the end. Get real.


We must have seen other games out there. Let's see what BlazersEdge had to say about Jarret on this game:

"--Jarrett Jack really came on strong in the fourth period and overtime and helped save this game for us. You all saw the steal and three-point layup conversion. He was the only guy scoring for us in the lane all night."

Yup, that's the same guy I saw. He was playing good defense on Ben Gordon that lead to him running out of gas at the end while still working his tail on the offense.



darkhelmit54 said:


> Whatever dude, I'd rather have the steals and quickness of a weaker backcourt that can run on the swings around the perimeter, than some big slow old 2-guard that's a good shooter but can barely move. Do we really need physical 2-guards to bang guys on the outside, no one's gonna try posting us up with Oden and Aldridge and Pryz underneath.


How can a slow old 2-guard like Jarrent be such a good penetration machine? Do all the players that guard him become slower when he attacks the basket? Maybe he is not as slow as you try to pretend he is. 

Also - why do opposing 2-guards need to post, all they need to do is blow by our none-defensive perimeter guys and force Oden, LaMarcus and the like come to cover them. This will more often than not result in fouls for our bigs or the opposing team's bigs being left open for a pass from the penetrating guy. It is as if you do not watch out own team and see how Roy is so effective because he can get in the lane and force the defense to collapse on him.

Having Oden and company is great since they can fix some of the mistakes of the perimeter guys and they can provide good help defense, but it is clear that even a team like the Spurs that have a fantastic defensive big man holding the fort put premium on perimeter defense and employ a guy like Bruce Bowen... 

If both of your guards are not good defensive players - it will be an open season for penetration for the opposing team and will put our big guys in a real bind. What good is Oden if he has to sit for 24 minutes of every game because of foul problems?


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

darkhelmit54 said:


> And BTW Anthony Parker was not as close to Jordan as you could get, that's a load of crap. He was well thought of but there would of been all tons of hype on him if that was the case. Anthony Parker was a good player, playing in Europe, against inferior competition. And he never usually averaged about 15 a game over there, Jordan...right. Check out his profile page:
> http://www.nba.com/playerfile/anthony_parker/bio.html


Actually, thanks to lucky timing, I was able to see AP and company win 2 Euroleague titles in the final four. I was on a business trip to Israel when they won the final four there and to Russia when they won the final four there, and AP was great against the best that Euroleague had to offer on the biggest stage.

In 6 years in the Euroleague AP won 3 titles (he made it to 4 title games and lost one). That's as good as San Antonio's recent run (3 championships in the last 6 years) of the NBA. No disrespect to Rudy, but he has never won the Euroleague championship, nor has he ever made it to the final four. I am not sure he even made it in at all.

Now, 15 ppg (actually 15.8 ppg, 5.7 rpg and 1.6 spg) in the Euroleague's 40 minutes (not 48, as we have in the NBA) is not bad, but you have to look at his performances in the big Euroleague games to see how dominant he was. He was the Euroleague MVP for 2 years running (Yep, Steve Nash like individual recognition) and in the final four in 2004 he averaged 24ppg (again, shorter games, remember). He also won the Fina Four MVP at least once (maybe twice, I am not certain about it - I know he won it once).

I am sorry, but during this period of time AP was dominant in the Euroleague and gained the highest honors you can get there, so trying to claim his achievements there were not outstanding is ignorant at best. With all due respect to Rudy - he has not done anything as significant as AP has done in European basketball. Not to say that he will not be a better player at his peak - but AP was an elite player in Europe.


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## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

andalusian said:


> We must have seen other games out there. Let's see what BlazersEdge had to say about Jarret on this game:
> 
> "--Jarrett Jack really came on strong in the fourth period and overtime and helped save this game for us. You all saw the steal and three-point layup conversion. He was the only guy scoring for us in the lane all night."
> 
> Yup, that's the same guy I saw. He was playing good defense on Ben Gordon that lead to him running out of gas at the end while still working his tail on the offense.


 MIN FGM-A 3PM-A	FTM-A REB	AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
Jan 08	vs. NYK	34	8 - 16 3 - 4	2 - 2	1	1	2	1 0 0 2 21
Jan 05	vs. SAC	35	5 - 14 2 - 7	8 - 8	2	0 4	0 0 4 3 20
Jan 03	vs. POR	46	15 - 27 1 - 5	1 - 1	0	5	3	1 0 4 1 32

yeah yeah, Jack really threw him off his game. Is it the 60% shooting that gave you this idea?



andalusian said:


> How can a slow old 2-guard like Jarrent be such a good penetration machine? Do all the players that guard him become slower when he attacks the basket? Maybe he is not as slow as you try to pretend he is.
> 
> Also - why do opposing 2-guards need to post, all they need to do is blow by our none-defensive perimeter guys and force Oden, LaMarcus and the like come to cover them. This will more often than not result in fouls for our bigs or the opposing team's bigs being left open for a pass from the penetrating guy. It is as if you do not watch out own team and see how Roy is so effective because he can get in the lane and force the defense to collapse on him.
> 
> ...


1. He's not that great of a penetration machine, or he'd average more points and FT's than he does, he's decent at it and it's his strength, but it's not as if he's wonderful.

2. Roy passes out to 1 of 4 players who can hit an outside shot. How often does he go against two athletic 7 footers? And how much does he penetrate against Jones? How many players are as good at faking the defense as Roy? How many penetraters have the mid-range pull up game of Roy? If we're saggin a little in on defense no one's getting by us, and we're quick enough they won't be getting by unless we're playing zone anyways (in which case they're staring GO and LMA in the face).It's just the face up deadly big shooters that would bother us.

3. Oden will deal with fouls early, every big in the NBA does until they're a star and get star calls. If he's not in fould trouble early in his career, he's not playing hard simple as that. SA has one fantastic big man by the way, and he's not nearly as quick or athletic as either of our two!


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## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

andalusian said:


> Actually, thanks to lucky timing, I was able to see AP and company win 2 Euroleague titles in the final four. I was on a business trip to Israel when they won the final four there and to Russia when they won the final four there, and AP was great against the best that Euroleague had to offer on the biggest stage.
> 
> In 6 years in the Euroleague AP won 3 titles (he made it to 4 title games and lost one). That's as good as San Antonio's recent run (3 championships in the last 6 years) of the NBA. No disrespect to Rudy, but he has never won the Euroleague championship, nor has he ever made it to the final four. I am not sure he even made it in at all.
> 
> ...


He did all of this IN HIS PRIME after four years of college seasoning and some NBA time, much different that Rudy who is college age now and putting up much better stats than Parker ever did. Parker was a good college player, a good international player, and then came into the NBA, with quite a bit of experience and seasoning and is a fairly good NBA player. He averaged 30 mpg and 13 ppg his first season back which is down a whole what 2 or 3 points from his euroleague stats. Your argument sucks, get over it.

And the reason I was littling his acheivements is because you compared him to Jordan, which was a far cry comparison deserving or ridicule. Jordan averaged over 30 a game in the NBA in his prime, compared to Parker averaging in the high teens in Euroleague during his prime.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

darkhelmit54 said:


> MIN FGM-A 3PM-A	FTM-A REB	AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
> Jan 08	vs. NYK	34	8 - 16 3 - 4	2 - 2	1	1	2	1 0 0 2 21
> Jan 05	vs. SAC	35	5 - 14 2 - 7	8 - 8	2	0 4	0 0 4 3 20
> Jan 03	vs. POR	46	15 - 27 1 - 5	1 - 1	0	5	3	1 0 4 1 32
> ...


What are you trying to show me? That he scored against Jack and company at the same rate he did against other NBA teams (about 1 point for every 1.5 minutes he is there)? (adjusted for time). What is wrong with it? He is a fantastic scorer and the #1 option for his team. If you can get him to work for his shots, which Jack did, while putting some pressure on him on the other side, that is a good thing. Do you think we would have been better off if we put Sergio on him? So he could shoot at a higher rate without working so hard?

Really, I am not sure what you are trying to imply. Jack is a strong defender that plays pretty decent one on one defense and this is why he was in the game at the end to slow down Ben Gordon (who was hot in these games). That's all you want to do - keep making the hot guy for the other team work for his shots. It is exactly what was done and exactly why we won the game. They did not get any easy shots in the 2nd half

For some reason your hate of Jack clouds your ability to see that the game is played on both sides of the court. It is clear that the hottest teams in the NBA (Portland, Detroit, the Celtics) are aware of the fact that defense is important.



darkhelmit54 said:


> 1. He's not that great of a penetration machine, or he'd average more points and FT's than he does, he's decent at it and it's his strength, but it's not as if he's wonderful.


He is 2nd best on the team after Roy at penetration. As for his points and FT - he is #1 on the team in TS% - ahead of Blake, Roy and Sergio - so I am not sure what you want more from him. He is a good penetration player - and the only one other than Roy that can put some pressure on the opposing team. Can he be better, sure, but he is still pretty good. If you look at his TS% - the man is an efficient scoring machine, better than Kobe, Ben Gordon and Roy. He is not a star, but what he needs to do - he does very efficiently. 



darkhelmit54 said:


> 2. Roy passes out to 1 of 4 players who can hit an outside shot. How often does he go against two athletic 7 footers? And how much does he penetrate against Jones? How many players are as good at faking the defense as Roy? How many penetraters have the mid-range pull up game of Roy? If we're saggin a little in on defense no one's getting by us, and we're quick enough they won't be getting by unless we're playing zone anyways (in which case they're staring GO and LMA in the face).It's just the face up deadly big shooters that would bother us.


Duh. Portland does not have any real interior threat - so he has to pass to guys like Jones on the perimeter. But think what would happen if Oden will need to leave Bynum because he has to rotate to stop Kobe from going in the lane at will. Who will get the ball? It will either be Oden getting a foul trying to move into Kobe's path or Bynum getting a free pass. The same will be said of any other team that can break a non-existent perimeter defense.



darkhelmit54 said:


> 3. Oden will deal with fouls early, every big in the NBA does until they're a star and get star calls. If he's not in fould trouble early in his career, he's not playing hard simple as that. SA has one fantastic big man by the way, and he's not nearly as quick or athletic as either of our two!


The trouble will be that he will be in foul trouble if he has to spend most of his time guarding his own man and the guys that blew off our none-existent perimeter defense. Why do you want to put him in this situation?


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

darkhelmit54 said:


> He did all of this IN HIS PRIME after four years of college seasoning and some NBA time, much different that Rudy who is college age now and putting up much better stats than Parker ever did. Parker was a good college player, a good international player, and then came into the NBA, with quite a bit of experience and seasoning and is a fairly good NBA player. He averaged 30 mpg and 13 ppg his first season back which is down a whole what 2 or 3 points from his euroleague stats. Your argument sucks, get over it.


So, you are saying that AP in his prime (much better achievements than Rudy now) was the dominant player on his team, won championships, MVP and dominated the opposition but found it harder in the NBA as a role player and the #3 or #4 option on his team, but Rudy will not? Color me confused... Something is not working with your arguments, especially when you consider that Rudy has never made it to the big games in the Euroleague. The Spanish league might be the best domestic league in Europe, but the quality of competition there is not as high as the Euroleague. Just to give you an example, the last time a Spanish team won the Euroleague championship was 2003. Rudy's averages in the Spanish league are not comparable to the Euroleague competition - where the best teams from each country play. Just to give you an idea, since 1993, more Italian teams won the Euroleague than Spanish teams - so while, in the domestic environment, the Spanish league is better than the Italian one - it does not mean that playing against Spanish teams (many of them never win enough to get to the Euroleague) is anywhere near playing the best Italian team in Euroleague. Or Maccabi Tel-Aviv (a European powerhouse), or Panathinaikos or CSKA Moscow (ditto). 

Parker was the go-to guy on the best team in Euroleague and he could not match this output in a longer game as the #3 or #4 option on a team that did not make it past the first round of the Playoffs. How hard is it to understand that success in international play is not even close to a guaranteed success in the NBA?



darkhelmit54 said:


> And the reason I was littling his acheivements is because you compared him to Jordan, which was a far cry comparison deserving or ridicule. Jordan averaged over 30 a game in the NBA in his prime, compared to Parker averaging in the high teens in Euroleague during his prime.


Parker, in his prime, was the dominant SG of the Euroleague and won the championship 50% of the time he was there, getting to the finals 66% of the time he was there. That is Jordan like achievement (championship percentage is actually higher than Jordan). If you never saw Parker doing what he did in Euroleague you have no clue what you are talking about, which is clearly the case if you compare Rudy's averages in the Spanish league to Parker's averages in Euroleague and conclude that Parker was a good player but not a dominant one.


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## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

andalusian said:


> Parker was the go-to guy on the best team in Euroleague and he could not match this output in a longer game as the #3 or #4 option on a team that did not make it past the first round of the Playoffs. How hard is it to understand that success in international play is not even close to a guaranteed success in the NBA?


How hard is this for you to understand: RUDY IS YOUNGER AND HAS MORE POTENTIAL THAT ANTHONY PARKER HAS. He succeeded in tougher leagues with older men at a younger age and is nowhere near his prime right now, plus he has an ice in his veins mentality rare for someone his age. He is used to coming off the bench in big games (world games, olympic stuff, FIBA) and playing with big players who are older (Gasol, Navarro, Calderon), and he's doing all this at 21. Parker didn't have success in Euroleague until he was way more seasoned and had way more experience playing against players HIS AGE IN COLLEGE FOR 4 YEARS. Parker was very good in Euroleague as the first option on his team, IN HIS PRIME. In the NBA he wasn't good enough to be the first option but still put up good stats, he just had a tough time adjusting to his role, like almost every college player, high school player, or NBA player who goes from a bad to good team where they're not the first option! Rudy won't have to make as much of a mental transition as he already plays with older players regularly when playing for the national team. HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND?!?!?!!?!?




andalusian said:


> Parker, in his prime, was the dominant SG of the Euroleague and won the championship 50% of the time he was there, getting to the finals 66% of the time he was there. That is Jordan like achievement (championship percentage is actually higher than Jordan). If you never saw Parker doing what he did in Euroleague you have no clue what you are talking about, which is clearly the case if you compare Rudy's averages in the Spanish league to Parker's averages in Euroleague and conclude that Parker was a good player but not a dominant one.


Parker was fantastic over there and now is good over here. Rudy is great over there and for his age fantastic, and will come over here with a similiar role and grow and progress as a player with lots of potential. He isn't an accomplished Euro player in or past his prime with no room to improve, he's not always a first option over there and has to get used to that, and he doesn't depend on his athleticism or size to dominate over there! The players who bust from Europe normally are big men projects or over the hill players, or...Sergei Monia. I agree no such thing is a sure thing, but Jack is right now a mediocre player who's very emotionally unstable, and is almost at full potential. Rudy is younger and more accomplished, more athletic, quicker, a better shooter, better without the ball, and more clutch. Jack is just bigger!


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## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

andalusian said:


> What are you trying to show me? That he scored against Jack and company at the same rate he did against other NBA teams (about 1 point for every 1.5 minutes he is there)? (adjusted for time). What is wrong with it? He is a fantastic scorer and the #1 option for his team. If you can get him to work for his shots, which Jack did, while putting some pressure on him on the other side, that is a good thing. Do you think we would have been better off if we put Sergio on him? So he could shoot at a higher rate without working so hard?
> 
> Really, I am not sure what you are trying to imply. Jack is a strong defender that plays pretty decent one on one defense and this is why he was in the game at the end to slow down Ben Gordon (who was hot in these games). That's all you want to do - keep making the hot guy for the other team work for his shots. It is exactly what was done and exactly why we won the game. They did not get any easy shots in the 2nd half
> 
> For some reason your hate of Jack clouds your ability to see that the game is played on both sides of the court. It is clear that the hottest teams in the NBA (Portland, Detroit, the Celtics) are aware of the fact that defense is important.


Just get off of his jock-strap dude. I don't know if you have a crush on him or what but he's just not a great defender. He's not terrible but he's not great and I don't know what makes you think he is. He had a good overtime, and was lucky to get fouled on that break because there was no way he was beating guys down the court for an easy bucket or passing for one, but it's one ninth of a game man and he didn't do a whole lot on offense. The fact remains half his points come in the last five minutes of games when we hand him the ball and people foul him in close games and that's a lot of the reason his efficiency numbers are so skewed, a lot of players on the team could be making those free throws.



andalusian said:


> He is 2nd best on the team after Roy at penetration. As for his points and FT - he is #1 on the team in TS% - ahead of Blake, Roy and Sergio - so I am not sure what you want more from him. He is a good penetration player - and the only one other than Roy that can put some pressure on the opposing team. Can he be better, sure, but he is still pretty good. If you look at his TS% - the man is an efficient scoring machine, better than Kobe, Ben Gordon and Roy. He is not a star, but what he needs to do - he does very efficiently.


Do you really think Jack would have anywhere near the same type of efficiency numbers if he took another ten or fifteen shots a game. He only takes wide open shots, drives the lane when people are already glued to Roy and Lamarcus and is generally the fourth option out there. He better make the most of his opportunitys and be open because if he's not then Roy or Aldridge should take the shot.

Penetration won't be the problem with Sergio and Rudy on D, it's physical D that disrupts shots on the outside that would be more lacking....Most lockdown players in the league are called that because they don't do anything else. Bruce Bowen's greatest asset to the spurs (besides D) is staying out of everyone elses way on offense, we don't need that.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

darkhelmit54 said:


> Do you really think Jack would have anywhere near the same type of efficiency numbers if he took another ten or fifteen shots a game.


No. He is not that good.



darkhelmit54 said:


> He only takes wide open shots, drives the lane when people are already glued to Roy and Lamarcus and is generally the fourth option out there. He better make the most of his opportunitys and be open because if he's not then Roy or Aldridge should take the shot.


No argument. But why are you so bitter than a role player on this team does exactly what you want him to do. Smart player, takes the shots he can make and hits them at a good clip, plays good defense. Sounds like the perfect role player to me.



darkhelmit54 said:


> Penetration won't be the problem with Sergio and Rudy on D, it's physical D that disrupts shots on the outside that would be more lacking....Most lockdown players in the league are called that because they don't do anything else. Bruce Bowen's greatest asset to the spurs (besides D) is staying out of everyone elses way on offense, we don't need that.


I do not understand that. For a team with great offensive fire-power like Roy, Aldridge and (hopefully) Oden a guy that can hit the shots he is open efficiently (as Jack does) and play reasonably good defense to keep the bigs out of foul trouble - sounds fantastic. Add the fact that he seems to be a good leader in the locker room and hard worker - and it is unclear to me why you hate him so much. Did he step on your toe by mistake and forgot to say sorry?


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## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

andalusian said:


> I do not understand that. For a team with great offensive fire-power like Roy, Aldridge and (hopefully) Oden a guy that can hit the shots he is open efficiently (as Jack does) and play reasonably good defense to keep the bigs out of foul trouble - sounds fantastic. Add the fact that he seems to be a good leader in the locker room and hard worker - and it is unclear to me why you hate him so much. Did he step on your toe by mistake and forgot to say sorry?


You would want a guy who helps making his other teammates better. Jack doesn't keep anyone honest with his penetration, he just goes for it every once in a while. Martell & Jones stretch the defense, Oden and Aldridge will bang down low and demand double teams, Roy creates and is a good shooter, Sergio creates and could really cause disruptions in opposing defenses if he finished better and is very young so he could develop into a good shooter, Rudy moves very well w/o the ball and is a very goo backdoor cutter, you need to pair that with your bigs.

How is he such a leader, all I hear is him talk about being a leader while playing extremely passive 75% of the time on the floor? I don't hate him, I just don't think he's a valuable component who brings a lot to the team, I don't think he has a high ceiling, and he's in his third year so I have stricter expectations for him, I just don't like that he has such a longer leash than Webster, Sergio, or Frye. Why do you defend him so much? Do you think he's cute?

BTW Quick said in his chat today it's just obvious Jack doesn't really fit with the future direction of the team and he thinks he'll be moved this offseason for sure with Fernandez coming over.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

darkhelmit54 said:


> I just don't like that he has such a longer leash than Webster, Sergio, or Frye. Why do you defend him so much? Do you think he's cute?


I defend him because he does something that no one else (other than Roy) on this team does - penetrate hard seeking contact. I like players that play tough and do not cry - and Jack, for all of his shortcomings, does that. Add the fact that he plays decent defense - and as a role player, I think he is valuable for this team.

I am also not sure why you think he gets a longer leash than others. Nate has the following to say about him:

"I have been hard on him, really hard on him," McMillan said. "But he has responded each time, and I like that. I can get on him, and he doesn't take it personally. He doesn't go into his shell. It's almost like he says 'OK, I'll prove it to you.' "

I appreciate this kind of behavior. I appreciate that he won the hardest working player award in the off-season. I appreciated it that when Odom ran at LaMarcus last year in the LA game, it was Jack which is much shorter and smaller than him that got between them to get pressure off LaMarcus. I appreciate that as a rookie, when Darius was dogging it in practice and everyone else on the team was not willing to take him to task - it was Jack that confronted him. I appreciate that despite the fact that Sergio competes for minutes with him - he has nothing but good things to say about him:

--
Jack also admires the play of Portland's backup point guard, Sergio Rodriguez. "Sergio has shown so far that he can do pretty well at his young age, and small stature," Jack said. "He's extremely talented, with great court vision for finding people open, but I think he would do even better if he were a little more selfish and shot the ball more."
--

I liked the way he was talking when he was miked up in the Chicago game. Every team needs some tough guys - and it is harder to find one that is somewhat smaller in size as Jack is - so I appreciate it.

As for do I find him cute? No I do not. I am not sure what you are try to imply, but I do not really care much about cuteness of basketball players.



darkhelmit54 said:


> BTW Quick said in his chat today it's just obvious Jack doesn't really fit with the future direction of the team and he thinks he'll be moved this offseason for sure with Fernandez coming over.


Well, Quick has been trying to sell this line for a couple of years now - and if Rudy becomes as good as we hope he does, I can see it happen if Sergio progresses - but Quick also told us that Marc Iavaroni will be the Blazer's coach - so to be honest with you, while he does a fine job of reporting on this team - I do not really think that KP calls him in the middle of the night to ask for his advice on roster moves. 

I have no doubts that Jack is not going to be a star on this team. I also do not think that Sergio deserves minutes ahead of him at this time and I do not have any doubts that Jack would be a an asset that other teams could, especially if Rudy works well for us in the long run, be very interested to get. It just seems to me that at this point in time, and possibly in the long time if the team comes to the conclusion that Sergio will not really flourish on this team, Jack will be successful and is a good contributer to the success of the team.


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## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

Jack had a great game tonight, actually my entire section was booing at Jack after each of his six turnovers. 24 minutes, 1-5 shooting, 2 points, 5 assists, 6 turnovers.


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