# Questions from a Blazer fan.



## BenDavis503 (Apr 11, 2007)

What is the status of your PG situation?

Are you getting rid of either Calderon or Ford?

Would you take Outlaw and our #13 draft pick for Calderon? If not, what more would it take?

Jose will never start as long as Ford is around... what is the probability that Jose will be traded?

Thanks guys! Just wondering what you think of these topics. We REALLY would love to have Jose on our team.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

No to outlaw and your scabby pick.


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## RX (May 24, 2006)

BenDavis503 said:


> What is the status of your PG situation?
> 
> Are you getting rid of either Calderon or Ford?
> 
> ...


Jose isn't the one who will be traded


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

BenDavis503 said:


> What is the status of your PG situation?
> 
> Are you getting rid of either Calderon or Ford?
> 
> ...


the status is tj ford coming off his byc status june 30th, and jose calderon becoming a restricted free agent this summer that will be retained. the probability of him being traded is very slim. 

last night, in under 25 minutes, jose gave us 18 points, 13 assists, 7 rebounds, shooting 6 of 11 and 4 of 8 from 3. the 19,800-strong crowd was literally singing his name. he's a top-flight pointguard and our emotional leader. portland would have to send brandon roy or greg oden, meaning, he will not be traded to portland regardless of jason quick's opinion.

however, many in toronto feel that one of our pointguards will be traded and that that pointguard's name is tj.ford.

outlaw is a nice young athlete and a solid role roleplayer. and there's a good chance the 13th will yield a good rotation player as well. but to keep this in context, last summer, collangelo refused josh childress and the 11th pick for jose even as we looked fully committed to ford. since then jose has engendered himself exponentially. 

but i think you're looking in the right direction. a starting quality pointguard should be priority 1 for the blazers. that guard needs to be vast improvement on blake/jack/rodruiguez.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

RX said:


> Jose isn't the one who will be traded


The problem is, with TJ's contract, start-me-or-else selfish attitude and injury history, who would possibly want to acquire him in a trade? Whether you want him or not, I think you guys are pretty much stuck with TJ Ford. He's not a bad player, but his contract and injury history make him pretty much untradeable.

And, since Colangelo has pretty much said the PG situation can't continue as it is, that means the more popular Calderon MIGHT be available, for the right price. I have no idea what that right price would be, but the Blazers have a ton of cheap, young talent, a big expiring contract, and a lottery pick. That's exactly the kind of package that got Kevin Garnett from Minnesota. So, I wouldn't say Calderon is unavailable, but given his popularity and the way he's been playing in the play-offs the Blazers may have to overpay to get him. I'm sure there will be many conversations between Kevin Pritchard and Brian Colangelo in the coming months. Who knows what will be offered and if anything will get done, but I'd love to be a fly on the wall during those conversations.

BNM


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

I'd give up TJ for Blake Outlaw and your Pick

put in fillers and make it work.

We could even swap picks. dont care.


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## gogreen (May 24, 2006)

spuriousjones said:


> the status is tj ford coming off his byc status june 30th, and jose calderon becoming a restricted free agent this summer that will be retained. the probability of him being traded is very slim.
> 
> last night, in under 25 minutes, jose gave us 18 points, 13 assists, 7 rebounds, shooting 6 of 11 and 4 of 8 from 3. the 19,800-strong crowd was literally singing his name. he's a top-flight pointguard and our emotional leader. portland would have to send brandon roy or greg oden, meaning, he will not be traded to portland regardless of jason quick's opinion.
> 
> ...


Wow, Greg Oden or Brandon Roy for Jose ? Is there anything else you want ? I mean Jose is a nice player and extremely underated, but Brandon is 23 years old, ALL-STAR, can play 3 postions, etc..

Greg oden for Jose C. No comment other than to say before the 07 draft Pritchard was offered numerous offers of established ALL-STARS for the pick. At the time he said he would only consider LBJ as the only player in the league he would trade the pick and even then he woulld not do it.

Jose is a good player but he would be the 4th best player on the Blazers at this time. Outlaw, Webster, Rudy Fernandez are 23 and have huge potential. When these 3 are 27 they have the potential to be ALL-STARS, something Calderon hasn't acheived as of yet.

Good luck vs Orlando


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

The point he was making is that Jose is basically untouchable.

Calderon was close of making the all stars though. With TJ out of the line up, don't be surprised if he does make the ASG.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Dee-Zy said:


> I'd give up TJ for Blake Outlaw and your Pick
> 
> put in fillers and make it work.
> 
> We could even swap picks. dont care.


Don't want TJ. That's probably the same exact answer you would get from any GM in the league. He's selfish, has a big contract and a bad injury history.

BNM


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Dee-Zy said:


> With TJ out of the line up, don't be surprised if he does make the ASG.


And with TJ in the line-up (as a starter, since he flat out refuses to come off the bench), Calderon could end up being the highest paid back-up PG in the league. What if a team that's under the cap offers Calderon a 6-year deal starting at $8 - 9 million and going up from there? Will Colangelo match, or let him walk away for nothing? Will he match and then look for a sign-and-trade that would get you some useful pieces? Do you really want $17+ million tied up in your PG rotation over the next 3 years?

If you think TJ Ford is going anywhere, you're in for a big surprise. If you were any other GM in the league, would you want that contract, that attitude and that injury history?

As a Blazer fan this is my dream scenario as it would force Toronto to make a decision, either match the offer and have a fortune tied up in two PGs that both should be starters (or one that should be and the other that INSISTS he should be), or work a sign-and-trade what would at least get you fair value, in pieces that aren't redundant, for Calderon.

BNM


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

Boob-No-More said:


> The problem is, with TJ's contract, start-me-or-else selfish attitude and injury history, who would possibly want to acquire him in a trade? Whether you want him or not, I think you guys are pretty much stuck with TJ Ford. He's not a bad player, but his contract and injury history make him pretty much untradeable.
> 
> And, since Colangelo has pretty much said the PG situation can't continue as it is, that means the more popular Calderon MIGHT be available, for the right price. I have no idea what that right price would be, but the Blazers have a ton of cheap, young talent, a big expiring contract, and a lottery pick. That's exactly the kind of package that got Kevin Garnett from Minnesota. So, I wouldn't say Calderon is unavailable, but given his popularity and the way he's been playing in the play-offs the Blazers may have to overpay to get him. I'm sure there will be many conversations between Kevin Pritchard and Brian Colangelo in the coming months. Who knows what will be offered and if anything will get done, but I'd love to be a fly on the wall during those conversations.
> 
> BNM


its important to look at the situation. toronto is not well served by trading quality for quantity. quite the opposite actually.

ford is not as valueless as many suggest. his contract is very favourable when compared to starting pointguards. off the top of my head, i can't think of any starting pointguards that are not on rookie contracts that earn what he does.

the general public should not be expected to have a firm understanding of spinal stenosis. it is not the threat that messageboard typists often claim it is. there is a "stinger" issue that will continue to be present. however, that is not a career threat. (it should be noted that the stinger suffered by tj from the hard flagrant that horford did and that would down most anyone was responsible for only part of tj's lost time--a wrist injury claims the rest.) tj's "condition" makes him less susceptible to serious injury as compared to "normal" than greg oden's does.

regarding the garnett deal, i think you are vastly underrating al jefferson. i encourage you to examine big al's game, perhaps against lamarcus aldridge as a touchstone.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

Boob-No-More said:


> The problem is, with TJ's contract, start-me-or-else selfish attitude and injury history, who would possibly want to acquire him in a trade? Whether you want him or not, I think you guys are pretty much stuck with TJ Ford. He's not a bad player, but his contract and injury history make him pretty much untradeable.
> 
> And, since Colangelo has pretty much said the PG situation can't continue as it is, that means the more popular Calderon MIGHT be available, for the right price. I have no idea what that right price would be, but the Blazers have a ton of cheap, young talent, a big expiring contract, and a lottery pick. That's exactly the kind of package that got Kevin Garnett from Minnesota. So, I wouldn't say Calderon is unavailable, but given his popularity and the way he's been playing in the play-offs the Blazers may have to overpay to get him. I'm sure there will be many conversations between Kevin Pritchard and Brian Colangelo in the coming months. Who knows what will be offered and if anything will get done, but I'd love to be a fly on the wall during those conversations.
> 
> BNM


this is probably the wrong time for raps fans to be thinking about this. heck, i've even been guilty of it myself. as we saw last night, 48 minutes of point guard domination can win games and tire opponents, especially when the franchise player is not one of said point guards. we will ride through this playoff season on the backs of our two floor generals.

but i mean, come on, tj ford is untradeable? fiction. teams all over the league are clamouring for starting point guards, regardless of risk, so to say he's untradeable: 1) will likely be proven untrue this summer; 2) sounds like wishful thinking from a team that appears to need a point guard, and a team's fan who appears to prefer jose calderon.  

i'm not saying the raptors can get full value for the man given his injury history, but that has been overlooked many times by many teams. but now ford's contract ($8.5 million for the next three years) is an albatross/anchor? this is not ben wallace- and even ben wallace was successfully moved this season.

i don't think you would've said that ford was untradeable even 24 hours ago. then he goes out and scores 21 pts in limited minutes, punishes carlos arroyo (and jameer nelson) with active defense and a stretch of dominating offensive control, and somehow he's now untradeable? what else could have happened? oh yes, jose calderon had a fantastic game, too, and an "untradeable" tj ford would be convenient for the sake of acquiring jose calderon.  gotcha. 

yes, the blazers need a point guard. yes, the raptors will be looking to move one of their stars to fortify another position. but just as tj ford was byc in 07/08, jose calderon will almost certainly be byc in 08/09, and thus cannot be moved in any deal short of a sign & trade, which in itself would be complicated.

there's a lot more to say on this subject, some of which would be wishful thinking on my part, some of which would be undisputable fact, but i'd rather not. suffice it to say that i believe jose calderon is- for a variety of reasons- many, many times more untradeable than tj ford. 

peace


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

gogreen said:


> Wow, Greg Oden or Brandon Roy for Jose ? Is there anything else you want ? I mean Jose is a nice player and extremely underated, but Brandon is 23 years old, ALL-STAR, can play 3 postions, etc..
> 
> Greg oden for Jose C. No comment other than to say before the 07 draft Pritchard was offered numerous offers of established ALL-STARS for the pick. At the time he said he would only consider LBJ as the only player in the league he would trade the pick and even then he woulld not do it.
> 
> ...


re-read my post. i did not write, imply, nor even loosely allude to those players as equivalent value.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

ballocks said:


> this is probably the wrong time for raps fans to be thinking about this. heck, i've even been guilty of it myself. as we saw last night, 48 minutes of point guard domination can win games and tire opponents, especially when the franchise player is not one of said point guards. we will ride through this playoff season on the backs of our two floor generals.
> 
> but i mean, come on, tj ford is untradeable? fiction. teams all over the league are clamouring for starting point guards, regardless of risk, so to say he's untradeable: 1) will likely be proven untrue this summer; 2) sounds like wishful thinking from a team that appears to need a point guard, and a team's fan who appears to prefer jose calderon.
> 
> ...


forderon is a massive advantage. 48 minutes of superior pointguard play gets the most out of the entire roster.

and if anyone knows that PG is the key and willing to pony up the dollars for it its the guy that paid for kidd, starbury, and nash. even with a massive raise, jose would have to get >12MM$ for he and tj to total the same salary -- and that's before taking their backups into consideration.

the neoconservatives are correct about one thing: the masses love to join in against a common enemy. for much of this season, tj has played that role. much of it has been unjustified. toronto fans are famous for gang hate.

there's a gentleman's agreement in sport that one does not lose one's starting role because of injury. yet that is what happened in toronto where fickle fans forget how much tj carried the team. we can only guess how the situation would have played out if tj lost his role by simply being outplayed.

there aren't many people that would happily accept being replaced because of injury. in most situations, its an illegal act by employer.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)




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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

spuriousjones said:


> ford is not as valueless as many suggest. his contract is very favourable when compared to starting pointguards. off the top of my head, i can't think of any starting pointguards that are not on rookie contracts that earn what he does.


Umm... let me think... OK, how about Steve Blake, a veteran starting PG that made $4.25 million this year and has a team option for $4.75 next year. No, I'm not claiming Blake is on the same level as TJ, but he's a starting PG that is paid half as much (and didn't miss 31 games due to injury, either). Rafer Alston is the starting PG on a team that won 22 games in a row and is in the play-offs. He made $4.55 million this year. Earl Watson, $5.8 million. Jamaal Tinsley, $6.3 million. Anthony Carter in Denver, $1.1 million. I could go on. There are several veteran PG starting in the NBA who make substantially less than TJ Ford, don't have his injury history, and don't have his selfish me-first attitude. For a guy who averaged 12 ppg and 6 apg, Ford is overpaid.



spuriousjones said:


> the general public should not be expected to have a firm understanding of spinal stenosis. it is not the threat that messageboard typists often claim it is. there is a "stinger" issue that will continue to be present. however, that is not a career threat. (it should be noted that the stinger suffered by tj from the hard flagrant that horford did and that would down most anyone was responsible for only part of tj's lost time--a wrist injury claims the rest.) tj's "condition" makes him less susceptible to serious injury as compared to "normal" than greg oden's does.


That's all well and good, but the fact remains the guy has been in the league five years, had had two spine injuries, has only played more than 55 games twice in five years and has never played more than 75. He has a history of injuries and whether or not the general public understands spinal stenosis is irrelevant. His injury history is enough to scare many GM's away. Combined with his contract and his attitude, it makes his a very undesirable trading asset.



spuriousjones said:


> regarding the garnett deal, i think you are vastly underrating al jefferson. i encourage you to examine big al's game, perhaps against lamarcus aldridge as a touchstone.


I'm not underrating Al Jefferson at all. He put up big numbers on a very bad team. We used to have a guy just like that here in Portland. Al's a solid big man, but getting Garnett for him (plus fillers) was a HUGE steal for Boston. Just look at how much better Garnett made Boston and Minnesota is even worse than they were before the trade. I get that they were rebuilding and wanted youth, cheap players and expiring contracts. Toronto isn't rebuilding and would want equal value (or greater) for Calderon. The Blazers could easily come up with such a package. The question is how much will Colangelo want for Calderon, and would the Blazers be willing to give it to him?

BNM


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

spuriousjones said:


> and if anyone knows that PG is the key and willing to pony up the dollars for it its the guy that paid for kidd, starbury, and nash. even with a massive raise, jose would have to get >12MM$ for he and tj to total the same salary -- and that's before taking their backups into consideration.


But, Brian Colangelo didn't overpay any of those guys. Ironically, it was Rod Thorn in New Jersey that gave both Marbury and Kidd their huge megadeals that they are still cashing in. When Kidd was with Phoenix he made between $5.2 and $7.6 million. Marbury got his huge deal from the Nets, before he came to Phoenix (where Colangelo got rid of him as soon as Isiah became GM of the Knicks), and Nash's current contract in Phoenix started at a very reasonable, for an MVP, $8.75 million and paid him $11.3 million this year. Colangelo has a history of acquiring top PGs, but he doesn't have a history of overpaying them. Do you think he's willing to have TWO overpaid PGs on the same roster at the same time?

BNM


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

Boob-No-More said:


> Umm... let me think... OK, how about Steve Blake, a veteran starting PG that made $4.25 million this year and has a team option for $4.75 next year. No, I'm not claiming Blake is on the same level as TJ, but he's a starting PG that is paid half as much (and didn't miss 31 games due to injury, either). Rafer Alston is the starting PG on a team that won 22 games in a row and is in the play-offs. He made $4.55 million this year. Earl Watson, $5.8 million. Jamaal Tinsley, $6.3 million. Anthony Carter in Denver, $1.1 million. I could go on. There are several veteran PG starting in the NBA who make substantially less than TJ Ford, don't have his injury history, and don't have his selfish me-first attitude. For a guy who averaged 12 ppg and 6 apg, Ford is overpaid.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


how could i forget about skip? the guy's been amazing.

i don't see the point of an argument about player X not being as good nor earning as much money as player y. and i'm sure their are players on the team you follow whose stats don't fairly represent their quality.

i think you're sleeping on jefferson. that kid is very good.

and like i wrote before, what collangelo "will" want for calderon the blazers are not willing to give.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

Boob-No-More said:


> But, Brian Colangelo didn't overpay any of those guys. Ironically, it was Rod Thorn in New Jersey that gave both Marbury and Kidd their huge megadeals that they are still cashing in. When Kidd was with Phoenix he made between $5.2 and $7.6 million. Marbury got his huge deal from the Nets, before he came to Phoenix (where Colangelo got rid of him as soon as Isiah became GM of the Knicks), and Nash's current contract in Phoenix started at a very reasonable, for an MVP, $8.75 million and paid him $11.3 million this year. Colangelo has a history of acquiring top PGs, but he doesn't have a history of overpaying them. Do you think he's willing to have TWO overpaid PGs on the same roster at the same time?
> 
> BNM


pheonix signed nash as a free agent for only 8.75million? wow! his max was still something like 12million then wasn't it? cuban looks even worse to me now. i'd love to see historical salaries if you have a link.

and kidd for less than 8million! bc's had an even better eye for super quality and value at the point that i realized.

is "Do you think he's willing to have TWO overpaid PGs on the same roster at the same time?" a trick question? if you're asking if the raptors would be willing to have forderon for a max salary? yes, i think so. 

if there's one position where it makes sense to me to have a max salary investment, its the pg position. superior pointguard play is a massive advantage in the nba.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

spuriousjones said:


> pheonix signed nash as a free agent for only 8.75million? wow! his max was still something like 12million then wasn't it? cuban looks even worse to me now. i'd love to see historical salaries if you have a link.


Scroll down to the bottom of this page. For salary data on the remainder of Nash's deal, try this one. It tops out with a $13.1 team option in 2009-10. 



spuriousjones said:


> is "Do you think he's willing to have TWO overpaid PGs on the same roster at the same time?" a trick question? if you're asking if the raptors would be willing to have forderon for a max salary? yes, i think so.
> 
> if there's one position where it makes sense to me to have a max salary investment, its the pg position. superior pointguard play is a massive advantage in the nba.


Depending on how much Calderon gets, TJ + Jose could be greater than a single max. contract. That's kind of my point, how much is too much. Colangelo has been real frugal in the past - that's kind of been his strength as a GM, getting the most player for the least money. Is he willing, (or more importantly, is the Toronto ownership) willing to overpay to keep the Ford/Calderon combo. In Phoenix, his hands were somewhat tied by ownership that would absolutely not cross the luxury tax threshold. That's how the Blazers got Sergio Rodriguez and Rudy Fernandez from them for nothing but a little of Paul Allen's pocket change. Is the Toronto ownership willing to dip into luxury tax land to keep both Ford and Calderon - if it comes to that? 

BNM


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

Boob-No-More said:


> Scroll down to the bottom of this page. For salary data on the remainder of Nash's deal, try this one. It tops out with a $13.1 team option in 2009-10.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


basketball reference is amazing. thanks. (too bad they don't have salaries in spreadsheets like hoopshype). looks like the toronto huskies sucked. almost as much as cuban does for nash go for that amount. wow. that's a fireable goof for an employee. nash wasn't just some 3rd-best-on-the-team guy with potential, he was the key to their whole personality (although their subsequent success could say otherwise). and now he's paying kidd around double.

toronto's paid the luxury tax before and claim they will in the future if warranted. me, i would hope they would do it for forderon. but smoke signals have been pointing to tj being moved.

thinking about jj and the hawks... bc wanted to keep him and they were willing to match salary but jj *****ed his way out. at that time, jj was what, the 4th most important player on their team? its not a great guide because joe was the obvious starter at his position and i don't know what the backup investment and quality was, but i would peg jose as a more valuable pointguard than joe was a shootingguard.

jose would be great in portland but i just don't think there's a realistically doable deal that gets him there.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

BC overpaid Marcus Banks though and I would consider TJ's deal overpaid as well.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

First of all the only way some team would get Jose off a signing is if they offer him a ridiculous contract, like 11-12 mil a year. If the Blazers are willing to spend that much money on Jose, then they can have him. I know that Paul Allen is rich, but that's a lot of money to pay especially when you have to sign Roy/Aldridge/Oden to close to max money somewhere down the line. Also I don't think the Blazers have that much money under the cap. 

Colangelo has said multiple times that he will definitely re-sign Jose, and has also said that he will re-evaluate the PG situation and determine if a trade is needed. I may be wrong, but I'm taking that as a hint that Ford would be the one getting moved. I don't think he would repeat himself that many times about his willingness to keep Jose if he's planning on signing him and dealing him out right after. I mean, he has been basically reassuring the fans that their favorite player wouldn't be moved.

Regarding Ford, I do think he's overpaid but he's nowhere near someone that's untradeable. At the worst case scenario the Raptors would get another player that is also overpaid similar to what the Cavs got for Larry Hughes (Ben Wallace). Again, I'm not looking for the Raptors to make a killing with the Ford trade. If we can trade him for someone that can fill another position we lack (sg/sf/c), I don't mind if we get lesser talent in return. So in short ideally I would be looking for a role player with a shorter contract for Ford. Because PG of Ford's ability is rare, I am sure that there will be teams that are willing to make a gamble for him especially if the price is what I've just mentioned.

I'm not closing the doors on trading Jose either, but Outlaw+13th probably won't get it done now because Jose's stock has gone up and may go higher after these playoffs. It's not that the offer sucks, it's just that there will probably be better offers on the table. I can think of many teams that can use someone like Jose.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

before tj got hurt, it looked like bc had pulled off another steal. tj's really underrated around here and/or people's memories are short. where is this bounty of young pointguards as good or better than him?


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

spuriousjones said:


> before tj got hurt...


Which time? Hasn't he been injured every year he's been in the league?

BNM


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> First of all the only way some team would get Jose off a signing is if they offer him a ridiculous contract, like 11-12 mil a year. If the Blazers are willing to spend that much money on Jose, then they can have him. I know that Paul Allen is rich, but that's a lot of money to pay especially when you have to sign Roy/Aldridge/Oden to close to max money somewhere down the line. Also I don't think the Blazers have that much money under the cap.


No, the Blazers won't be under the cap this off season. That's why I said it would take some team under the cap to offer Calderon a ridiculous contract that would force Colengelo to either let him walk for nothing, overpay him for a LONG time, or start exploring sign and trade options.

Money won't be an issue. Luxury tax be damned. All our young guys are currently on cheap contracts. Thanks to Darius Miles' league approved medical retirement, we are below the luxury tax threshold this year and will be significantly under the cap next year (unless we pick up a big contract this summer in a sign and trade). When the Blazes won the lottery last June, Allen said he'd spend whatever it takes to win a championship - and he's by far, the richest owner in sports. He could buy Mark Cuban about 10 or 15 times. Money isn't the obstacle, the collective bargaining agreement is. But it's also what will let us offer our young guys more money than anybody else once their cheap rookie contracts are up. So, no complaints. We also have a ton of tradeable assets, from a huge expiring contract, to a surplus of cheap, young talent, to draft picks. So, I'm sure Kevin Pritchard will be able to get what he wants in some way or another.



seifer0406 said:


> I'm not closing the doors on trading Jose either, but Outlaw+13th probably won't get it done now because Jose's stock has gone up and may go higher after these playoffs. It's not that the offer sucks, it's just that there will probably be better offers on the table. I can think of many teams that can use someone like Jose.


That would probably be Portland's STARTING offer. I'm sure if a bidding war started, Kevin Pritchard would be willing to sweeten the pot. Also, no guarantee our lottery pick will be no. 13. Odds are it will be, but we beat the odds last year and got no. 1. Who knows, some luck with the ping pong balls and a top 3 pick would change everything.

BNM


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

Boob-No-More said:


> Which time? Hasn't he been injured every year he's been in the league?
> 
> BNM


you've made your point about tj's health record. everyone here knows his history.

tj was playing terrific ball this fall and winter before horford knocked him out. if it weren't for tj's performance during chris bosh's fall injury, toronto would be awaiting pingpong balls.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Yeah, I don't really think TJ's health will be the breaking point of any type of trade discussion. People know the risk and know what they are getting into. When BC goes to negotiate the injury concerns will already be factored in. As I said, it's going to be a gamble for teams because if TJ weren't injured, theres no way that a team can acquire him with some of the offers that people are throwing around out there. It's going to be a trade where some teams are willing to part with role players or players with potential in order to acquire someone who may pay big dividends for them if he stays healthy.

And TJ was healthy for the majority of last season and the season before that. He had some bumps late in the season but they weren't nearly as serious as the Horford incident. And as I keep saying, that Horford incident is severe enough to be considered a freak accident. If it was anyone else other than TJ that got their neck bent backwards by a 6-10 260 lb player, chances are he will be out for quite some time as well. Just because TJ has a history, people just assume that it's because the accident happened to him that's why it was so severe. Theres a reason why NBA gives out suspensions when players are hit in the face. It is a dangerous area and guys do get injured when they get hit in the head.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

unfortunately, tj ford is absolutely injury-prone. as seifer mentioned, that would clearly hurt his stock. i fully expect the man to get injured again and again. i don't want him to, but what can you do. imo, he probably will.

that said, teams have been fooled countless times in the past and will continue to be fooled again, especially when it comes to players like tj ford who are 25 yo and under. 

but tj ford does not deserve to be thrown into the category of, oh i don't know, steve francis or stephon marbury or zach randolph (or any other player on the knicks) as a "selfish, me-first" type. it's one thing to be what tj is, whose teammates still adore the guy in spite of the fact that he hasn't handled calderon's near-stardom the way that someone like, oh i don't know, jose calderon would have; it's quite another to be one of the abovelisted.

but let's put all that aside for the sake of argument: even if tj ford _was_ the biggest hole known to the nba _and_ was made further untradeable by the league's miraculous discipline and newfound reluctance in taking on medium-sized contracts of injury-prone stars, *why would that make toronto more likely to shop jose calderon on the trade market*? would that not make it _less_ likely?  "we're going to put our team in the hands of a player who nobody likes around the league and nobody believes can stay healthy, while we endeavour to become an elite team for years to come with a roster full of players in their collective prime right now. we will thus choose to move a player whose league-wide stock has never been higher, the same player we publicly committed ourselves to re-signing all season long. goodbye, jose calderon. but don't fret, fans- the portland trailblazers have antied up with players they don't really want." 

we'll see if it happens!

peace


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## Gepetto (Apr 26, 2008)

This is all very close to what happened and what was said in Phoenix a fews years ago when Joe Johnson was a RFA. Brian Colangelo worked than out pretty well and many fans in Phoenix were pretty surprised. I think he made the right choice then and he will now too, even if that means trading Calderon to fill holes.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

travis outlaw is raw, even tho he really developed this season. he'd really improve if he'd take it to the hole more, good outside shot.

it really looks like ford will be gone before calderon.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

i don't think the Raps owners would blink to spend into the luxury tax if they were convinced it'd make them money.

this is the same group that make a boat load of cash of the Leafs and a will soon, off of the FC.

i'm sure the Raps pay for themselves and the city is desperate for a winner. first to the championship gets claim to the city's hearts.


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## Yega1979 (Mar 22, 2003)

Porn_Player said:


> No to outlaw and your scabby pick.


Ok then, I guess we'll just have to sign him next season when we have over 20 million in cap room. I sure he wouldn't mind coming to play with his Spanish buddies, Sergio Rodriguez and Rudy Fernandez.

It may be a situation where you take something instead of lose him for nothing.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Yega1979 said:


> Ok then, I guess we'll just have to sign him next season when we have over 20 million in cap room. I sure he wouldn't mind coming to play with his Spanish buddies, Sergio Rodriguez and Rudy Fernandez.
> 
> It may be a situation where you take something instead of lose him for nothing.


And how are the Blazers going to do that? Pull what the Bobcats did to the Cavs?

I seriously doubt Calderon will do what Varejao did, and Colangelo isn't exactly the same as the retard that surrounded Lebron James with scrub.

Also the Raptors have some cap space after next year as well. Probably not as much money as the Blazers, but it's more than enough to keep Calderon.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Portland is as good a trade partner for one of the point guards as you're going to find. They need a good PG and they've got tradeable assets. Jose and Garbo packaged perhaps? I really do want another pick in this draft and while the Blazers have to be looking to move their's, trying to get more veteran leadership on the team.

Or maybe you do TJ and get Rudy Fernandez and other pieces to up our Spanish contingent.

How does this BYC contract trading work again? Is Calderon really considered a BYC contract player in a sign and trade? How can contracts match if you can only take back half the player's value?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I would be happy if we get either Outlaw or Przybilla for TJ Ford. Probably throw in one of their backup points in there so we get a backup.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

I would do Ford for Jack a scrub and a first rounder...


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

I'd do a Jose deal for Outlaw and Rudy Fernandez, maybe add Jack/Blake - I think either of those two guys could become our future secondary scorer on the wings and then with Jack/Blake we get a backup guard who can start if needed.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

NeoSamurai said:


> I'd do a Jose deal for Outlaw and Rudy Fernandez, maybe add Jack/Blake - I think either of those two guys could become our future secondary scorer on the wings and then with Jack/Blake we get a backup guard who can start if needed.


Outlaw is a solid young player.....how is his "D"? Is a an upgrade over Moon, he does score better, but nothing else seems to be that great.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

billfindlay10 said:


> Outlaw is a solid young player.....how is his "D"? Is a an upgrade over Moon, he does score better, but nothing else seems to be that great.


Well, we will always be a poor defensive team until we can find an anchor inside that doesnt force us to always cheat on a post play or at least alter shots in the lane. With that said, Im higher on picking up Outlaw and Fernandez NOW and then looking to find a banger inside in free agency/via draft than trading for one like Przybilla who is a known and solid commodity but wont take us to the next level. Both Outlaw and Rudy could develop into strong secondary scorers (if not more) and if you can get Jack to help out as a backup for Ukic next year, I think you set yourself up nicely for a serious runs a year or two down the line.


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## BenDavis503 (Apr 11, 2007)

Porn_Player said:


> No to outlaw and your scabby pick.


And your a Mod? What class and professionalism you display for this fine site.



seifer0406 said:


> I'm not closing the doors on trading Jose either, but Outlaw+13th probably won't get it done now because Jose's stock has gone up and may go higher after these playoffs. It's not that the offer sucks, it's just that there will probably be better offers on the table. I can think of many teams that can use someone like Jose.


Good points. Other teams will try harder, but KP will step his game up when he sees something he wants, and we definitely have the assets.

Thanks to all for answering my question. Most of you seem very insightful, respectful and well spoken. Looks like Toronto has some great fans! I appreciate your feedback and not telling me something like the great mod Porn_Player said.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> I would be happy if we get either Outlaw or Przybilla for TJ Ford. Probably throw in one of their backup points in there so we get a backup.


Przybilla is EXACTLY what you need. He's a GREAT rebounder (4th in the entire NBA in REB/40) and plays excellent interior defense. He's way below average offensively, but knows his limits and doesn't try to do too much. He gets most of his points off put backs and dunks off the pick and role. He improved his FT shooting to a "respectable" 68% this year so that Nate wasn't terrified to actually have him on the court in the 4th quarter. He would be a great fit next to Bosh on your front court.

However, I'm not sure you'll be able to get him. He loves Portland and Portland loves him. He will be the ideal back-up to Greg Oden, and given that we're not 100% sure yet that Oden will be healed from his microfracture surgery, Joel is our insurance. As a rookie, Oden will also probably be in foul trouble. So, having a capable back-up like Przybilla is a good thing. Our other option at back-up center would be Channing Frye. Long term, Frye is expected to back-up Aldridge at power forward. He has similar size and a similar offensive game. With Oden out for the season, he was forced to play most of his minutes at center this year. He's a much better offensive player than Przybilla, but not as good defensively or off the glass (although he did show great improvement in these areas late in the season). With Oden and Aldridge starting and Przybilla and Frye as back-ups, Portland's big man rotation is set for years to come. That doesn't mean Joel (or Channing) are untradeable, and I'm not trying to overvalue them. However, when trading big for small, you want to make sure it's THE right deal.

And, I'm not sure TJ is the RIGHT deal. Yes, Portland needs an upgrade at starting PG, and TJ would be an upgrade. However, even if you ignore his contract, his injury histroy and his selfish start-me-or-else attitude, I'm not sure he's what Kevin Pritchard is looking for in a PG. Pritchard likes big players, and he likes unselfish players. TJ is undersized and really needs to dominate the ball to be his most effective. 

That's why Calderon is a better fit for the Blazers. But, it would take more than Przybilla or Outlaw to get Calderon. Przybilla AND Outlaw for a re-signed Calderon would be interesting.

Outlaw is a much better offensive player than anyone on your team not named Bosh. He would be a HUGE upgrade offensively over Moon. He average 13.3 PPG coming off the bench in Portland - which would have made him your 2nd leading scorer. He has a nice jump shot that is impossible to block. He is also a clutch shooter with the game on the line. He hit a couple game winners this year and even though he didn't start, he was almost always on the court in the 4th quarter. With Oden injured, Nate had a tendency to play Outlaw most of his minutes at the back-up 4 (since Frye was playing most of his minutes at the back-up 5). Small forward is DEFINITELY Outlaw's best position. He's undersized (skinny) for a 4, but has good size and freakish athleticism for a 3. With Rudy coming, Outlaw's role as number 1 scoring option off the bench is in jeopardy. Also, with Oden (hopefully) starting at center, Frye will probably get more of his minutes at his natural power forward spot. So, this all adds up to fewer minutes and fewer touches for Outlaw. He's only 23 and had a break-out season, but with so many other young players on the team (with the addition of Oden, Rudy and possibly a lottery pick), I'm not sure where he would get his minutes long term on this Blazers team. Toronto has a definite need for scoring from the wing, and Outlaw would give you that.

BNM


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

i like both joel and outlaw a lot. but even i think its a stretch to say that either of them is "exactly" what we need (in the contexct of them costing calderon/ford). imo, neither are large enough upgrades to justify trading a top young pointguard.

billa, when healthy, brings impressive rebounding and solid interior d for the minutes he can keep his hustle going. its pretty amazing how well the bucks have been in finding rebounding machines. he's also a good character. and his contract, like tj's, already incorporates his injury discount.

travis is a very athletic guy that improved a lot this year--more than i thought he would. i like him more than martell (still can't believe they traded away chris paul or even deron williams to get him). i think he's best when playing power forward and he's able to take advantage of his quickness against slower competition. he may become a legit fulltime starting 3--he has the tools to do so--in toronto, he might even be able to beat out moon in that role, but as of right now, there are not a lot of teams he would start on (then again, neither would moon). i don't have a lot of confidence that his basketball iq will grow enough to take him to the level that his body suggests he can reach. 

sf is the second biggest need point for the blazers. pg being the first, of course. however, will a legit point, a two-headed martell-outlaw sf may be all that's needed. to put it in perspective, i think udoka would still be starting.

its hard to look at a team through boxscores and such and deduct needs. yes, toronto suffers from an overall lack of rebounding and the gap between our highest and second highest scoring player is large, but that's too simplistic. might as well just say if we scored more than the other team we'd win.

like i said, i do like both billa and outlaw but i don't think they're substantial difference makers from what is already on-roster for toronto in what matters: winning. and its important to temper the gains of incoming players with the loss of outgoing, especially when that player is a pointguard and will take with him the value a true pointguard adds to the entire bench.

imo the best trading piece for portland is rudy fernandez. he's a solid young prospect having a really great year. their are questions about his size, strength, and ablity to go to his off-side, but i think he'll succeed. contract issues aside, he good chance at being a good player in the league. as in toronto with the pointguards, but to a lesser degree due to the respective importance of their positions, his projected role as a backup to brandon roy creates a situation where a reshuffling of asset distribution (to facilitate the acquisition of a starting pointguard or small forward) can bring the biggest return for the loss given up. that's not because rudy is a not valuable or anything like that, its because of who stands in front of him at his position.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

If I had to pick one between Outlaw and Przybilla, I would go with Przybilla. Although Outlaw is an upgrade at the SF, the Raptors are looking more towards the Corey Maggette type that has the ability to get to the line. Outlaw is atheletic but his offense is more of the jump shooter type, and I don't know if we need another jump shooter on our team.

Regarding TJ, I actually feel that he would fit the Blazers quite well, at least better than the PGs that they currently have. The only downside for him is that he doesn't have 3pt range, however his jumpshots have improved since he joined the Raptors and have become even better this year working with John Lucas. He has pretty good form on his jump shot and I think should become consistent from around 20 feet in.

The reason I feel why TJ can be effective on the Blazers is because of his superior pass vision (which I feel is above Calderon's), his defense, and his ability to drive inside. TJ and Calderon are both very good at getting their big men easy baskets. If TJ can make Rasho Nesterovic look as good as he did in the latter part of the regular season, he should do it even better with Greg Oden underneath. TJ is arguably also better paired with Bosh than Calderon with Bosh because of TJ's ability to drive and kick, so I think that he should fair well with Aldridge since he plays a similar game as Bosh. Some of the PGs in the Western conference might be too fast for Calderon defensively. TJ when he puts his mind to it has shown the ability to stay in front of pretty much anybody.

Lastly about TJ being selfish. I don't think he's a selfish player at least from what I've seen out of him since he was a Raptor. On a team with limited offensive options, like when Bosh was out with injury, TJ might try to do too much on his own. But when our team is healthy, TJ has always shared the ball. The Blazers have more offensive capabilities than the Raptors, therefore I don't think this will be a concern if he does go there. TJ did average around 7.5 assists last season in under 30 minutes and was on pace to break 8 assist this year before he got smacked by Horford. His assist/to ratio although not as good as Calderon's is still a respectable ~3.

Again, injuries will always be a risk with TJ and I doubt he will ever play a full 82 game season in his career. But if he stays healthy for 65-75 games, he is a good starting point guard and is someone that can play on a winning team.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

spuriousjones said:


> its hard to look at a team through boxscores and such and deduct needs. yes, toronto suffers from an overall lack of rebounding and the gap between our highest and second highest scoring player is large, but that's too simplistic. might as well just say if we scored more than the other team we'd win.


You're right. I don't watch every Raptors game. I catch a handful during the regular season, and then watch them (and everybody else) in the play-offs. So, maybe I miss some subtleties during the regular season, but in the play-offs, the reasons you can't get past the first round are glaringly obvious - poor rebounding and weak interior defense. It was obvious last year against the Nets and it's obvious this year against the Magic. I know it's a cliche', but defense and rebounding wins games - ESPECIALLY in the play-offs.

In your last 10 play-off games (6 games last year against the Nets and the first 4 in this current series against the Magic), you haven't out rebounded your opponents once (you tied the Nets twice) and you've lost the points-in-the-paint battle ALL TEN times - more often than not by double digits. Last year against the Nets, you gave up an average of 37 points-in-the-paint per game. This year in the first four games against the Magics, you're giving up a whopping 44 points-in-the-paint per game. You simply can't win in the play-offs when you give up that many easy baskets. Over your last 10 play-off games, you've been outscored in the paint 396 to 254 - by an average of 14.2 PPG. You're interior defense is beyond weak. Combine that by the fact that you are also getting beat on the boards in every game means more first round exits until you correct these two glaring weaknesses. Nothing subtle going on here. Even a dolt like me is capable of spotting such glaring weaknesses.

So, Joel Pryzbilla may not be THE perfect player for you, but he sure would help address the two biggest reasons why you keep getting bounced in the 1st round.

BNM


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

And, true to form, you're about to get bounced in the first round again, because you're getting killed on the boards and in the paint - for the 11th consecutive play-off game.

BNM


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## BenDavis503 (Apr 11, 2007)

Trade Calderon now!!! You guys lost in the first round!!! You need Joel and Outlaw for Jose.

ehhehe :devil2:


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Ya because look where you guys are....west or not! Is Joel any better than Rasho? As far as I know Outlaw is no lock down defender either. We need a true impact player, not more bench guys.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

billfindlay10 said:


> Ya because look where you guys are....west or not!


FYI, this year's Blazers were not just this year's youngest team, they were the 3rd youngest team in the entire 50 year history of the NBA. The two younger teams won 15 and 16 games. So, for a team this young to win 41 games is totally without precedent. And, they did it without Greg Oden, their No. 1 over all draft pick - as you mentioned in the highly competitive Western Conference. Where we're at is a couple years ahead of where most "experts" thought we'd be WITH Oden. So, add Oden AND Rudy Fernandez AND a lottery pick and I think we'll be just fine.



billfindlay10 said:


> Is Joel any better than Rasho?


Offensively, no. But in the areas you need help, defense and rebounding, Joel is WAY better than Rasho. Joel was 4th in the entire NBA in reb/40. Rasho didn't even break the top 50 (he was 54th). If you guys had Joel he'd be your starting center - like he was for the Blazers this year. He would instantly improve your rebounding and interior defense - your two weakest areas. He be an excellent complimentary player to Bosh.



billfindlay10 said:


> As far as I know Outlaw is no lock down defender either.


He's a decent defensive player and a better all around player than anybody you currently have playing the wing. He averaged 13.3 PPG coming of the bench in Portland. That's more than all of your starters not named Bosh. If he played for Toronto, he'd be your starting 3. And, he's only 23 and still improving. He also gives you something else you need - a wing who can create his own shot. He's WAY better at this than Moon and Kapono. Outlaw can get his shot off against anyone. He's got a much better, more consistent jump shot than Moon and you don't have to run him off endless screens like Kapono to get him open.



billfindlay10 said:


> We need a true impact player, not more bench guys.


Yes, well good luck with that. Last I checked, Calderon was a "bench player". So, you'd be trading a back-up for two starters.

BNM


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## RX (May 24, 2006)

Boob-No-More said:


> Yes, well good luck with that. Last I checked, Calderon was a "bench player". So, you'd be trading a back-up for two starters.


I'm pretty sure we can get more for Calderon then Outlaw and Pryzbilla...that would be a really stupid deal for us and doesn't address our primary needs. Outlaw is nice, but is just another jump shooter which we DO NOT NEED. Pryzbilla would be really nice yes, but he ain't worth a starting calibre point guard.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

RX said:


> I'm pretty sure we can get more for Calderon then Outlaw and Pryzbilla...that would be a really stupid deal for us and doesn't address our primary needs. Outlaw is nice, but is just another jump shooter which we DO NOT NEED.


But, he is a jump shooter who can create his own shot - and that you DO need.



RX said:


> Pryzbilla would be really nice yes, but he ain't worth a starting calibre point guard.


So, a starting caliber center who addresses your two biggest needs (rebounding and interior defense) is not worth a starting caliber point guard? How far did your two starting caliber point guards get you in the play-offs? 11 play-off games in two years - outscored in the paint in every single one - by an average of 14 points. And you didn't out rebound your opponent once. Orlando I can understand, because they have Dwight Howard, but you couldn't out rebound New Jersey and allowed them to score 37 points in the paint per game - and they didn't even have a legitimate low post scorer - that was their guards and small forward driving the lane at will on your "bigs".

Having two starting caliber point guards is a luxury. If you want to get past the first round in the play-offs, rebounding and interior defense are necessities.

BNM


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## RX (May 24, 2006)

Boob-No-More said:


> But, he is a jump shooter who can create his own shot - and that you DO need.


No, nO, NO...we need a slasher who can create his own shot...no more jumpshooters PLEASE




Boob-No-More said:


> So, a starting caliber center who addresses your two biggest needs (rebounding and interior defense) is not worth a starting caliber point guard? How far did your two starting caliber point guards get you in the play-offs? 11 play-off games in two years - outscored in the paint in every single one - by an average of 14 points. And you didn't out rebound your opponent once. Orlando I can understand, because they have Dwight Howard, but you couldn't out rebound New Jersey and allowed them to score 37 points in the paint per game - and they didn't even have a legitimate low post scorer - that was their guards and small forward driving the lane at will on your "bigs".
> 
> Having two starting caliber point guards is a luxury. If you want to get past the first round in the play-offs, rebounding and interior defense are necessities.
> 
> BNM


Don't get me wrong, I like both Pryzbilla and Outlaw...but I do not think they are good enough to get us over the hump, especially with the loss of Calderon like you are proposing. 

We'll have to just agree to disagree here.


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## RX (May 24, 2006)

For all you Blazers fans...I'm sorry but the only guys on the Blazers we'd want are Oden and Roy...and that is not happening.

Everything else you have would be a marginal upgrade at best for what we'd have to give up. Unless we trade pure garbage for garbage...in which case the impact will be marginal as well.

You can argue about need and this and that and filling in our gaps...but our gaps are your team's biggest strengths which you are not trading away.

We need a big strong defensive C...yes Pryzbilla could fit the bill, but NO he isn't worth Jose Calderon
We need a slasher who can create his own shot...someone in the mold of the following: Ginobili, Turkoglu, Joe Johnson, Brandon Roy, etc...GUESS What?! Travis Outlaw AINT IT!


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

RX said:


> We need a big strong defensive C...yes Pryzbilla could fit the bill, but NO he isn't worth Jose Calderon
> We need a slasher who can create his own shot...someone in the mold of the following: Ginobili, Turkoglu, Joe Johnson, Brandon Roy, etc...GUESS What?! Travis Outlaw AINT IT!


And you think you're going to get BOTH of those for your BACK-UP point guard? Good luck with that. You'll be lucky to get one or the other, but no way will you get BOTH a big, strong defensive center AND an all-star caliber wing.

BNM


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## RX (May 24, 2006)

Boob-No-More said:


> And you think you're going to get BOTH of those for your BACK-UP point guard? Good luck with that. You'll be lucky to get one or the other, but no way will you get BOTH a big, strong defensive center AND an all-star caliber wing.
> 
> BNM


I didn't say we were going to get both, i just said what we needed.

The moves you are suggesting are lateral at best and will have marginal impact...when dealing someone like jose we need to be careful and make sure its going to clearly make us better...something that the deal proposed here doesn't do


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

RX said:


> The moves you are suggesting are lateral at best and will have marginal impact...


Adding a great rebounding, defensive minded center like Przybilla is NOT a lateral move and it would have more than marginal impact - especially in teh play-offs where you get KILLED on the glass and in the paint.



RX said:


> when dealing someone like jose we need to be careful and make sure its going to clearly make us better...something that the deal proposed here doesn't do


Adding Przybilla alone addresses your two biggest weaknesses - especially in the post season. Until you improve your rebounding and defense, you'll never get past the first round. Giving up 42 points in the paint AND getting out rebounded in EVERY game is a guaranteed recipe for failure in the play-offs. And, it wasn't just Dwight Howard. In the last two games of the series, Rashard Lewis looked like the second coming of Dennis Rodman and Hedo was driving down the lane without fear and dunking on you guys.

Outlaw may not be the all-star wing you desire, but you're not going to get one for Calderon. He's an upgrade over anyone you currently have playing the wing and he's still young and improving.

The package of the two is probably better than anything else you'll get offered. In fact, I'm not sure Portland would do it. We still don't know if Oden is going to be fully recovered, and as a rookie, he'll probably be in foul trouble. So, Przybilla still has a role on this team - and he's well liked and likes it here - and he has a reasonable contract.

If the asking price is too high for Calderon, I'm sure the Blazers will look elsewhere for a PG. Steve Blake is a more than adequate back-up and Brandon Roy usually runs the point late in close games anyway. What we really need to a good defensive PG that can bring the ball up against pressure. Roy can handle the the distribution duties, but can't guard small, quick PGs (but then, neither can Calderon).

BNM


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## RX (May 24, 2006)

We'll just have to disagree then...I think with Outlaw and Pryzbilla...minus Calderon...this team barely makes the playoffs and is a 1st round exit again at best. That is why I wouldn't do the deal.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

gotta love the passion of the blazer fans. delusional or not, they love their players, and ours 

anyone know where i can see team stats for points in the paint?


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

RX said:


> We'll just have to disagree then...I think with Outlaw and Pryzbilla...minus Calderon...this team barely makes the playoffs and is a 1st round exit again at best. That is why I wouldn't do the deal.


Yes, I disagree, but your scenario without Calderon sounds EXACTLY like what happened this year with him. In fact unless you improve your rebounding and interior defense, you'll never get past the first round no matter how many "great" point guards you have. These weaknesses were magnified against the Magic because of Dwight Howard, but the same thing happened last year (out rebounded and out scored in the paint) against the Nets with no dominant big men. Right now you're a team that can score enough to win enough regular season games to get into the play-offs, but has ZERO chance of making it past the first round. Sorry, that's the reality of play-off basketball - you need defense and rebounding to advance.

That's why, in spite of worse regular season records and tougher opponents, ATL and PHI are still playing and you're not. The 76ers actually have a slight advantage in both rebounding and points in the paint over the Pistons. And the Hawks have pretty much matched the Celtics in both categories (rebounds tied at 156, Boston has a 1 ppg advantage in points in the paint). Those teams have what you lack - rebounding and interior defense, and are therefore, better built for the play-offs. Will the 76ers and Hawks pull off the big upsets? Who knows, at least they are hanging in there and have a chance.

Your GM has already said he will address the PG situation in the off season, that it can't go on like it has with the controversy over who's starting. Most people took that to mean he's looking to trade TJ. With Calderon an RFA, I'm not sure that will end up happening. It all depends on what other teams offer Calderon. If some team under the cap makes a ridiculous long term contract offer, the best option for BC might be to start looking at sign-and-trade offers. Again, until something happens it's all speculation, but I'm sure BC will at least consider offers that may help upgrade your rebounding and interior defense.

BNM


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## RX (May 24, 2006)

Look, I'm not disagreeing with you and i think the team is going nowhere without some big changes...but you don't seem to get it. The point is, the offer discussed in this thread is not going to make us good enough to get past the first round. That is the only point I am trying to make.

You keep ignoring this and ranting about how we suck and we aren't going to make it anywhere without change and blah blah blah...but if you hadn't noticed, most people are agreeing with you so you're just arguing with yourself.


And you got to be KIDDING me with regards to comparing Toronto to Philly and Atlanta...they are both exactly the opposite of us...they have superb atheletes at the Forward and C spots

Philly: Andre Iguodala, Samuel Dalembert, Thaddeus Young, 
Hawks: Josh Smith, Al Horford, Marvin Williams

There is no WAY Pryzbilla and Outlaw are even remotely close to any of the above. 


So let me ask you a question...do you think if all remained the same, and the Raptors traded Calderon for Outlaw and Pryzbilla...that they would get past the 1st round next year?


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

spuriousjones said:


> anyone know where i can see team stats for points in the paint?


You might be able to find a summary elsewhere, but the points-in-the-paint totals for each game can be found on the "Game Final" page for each game at nba.com.

Here's a summary of points-in-the-paint for the TOR/ORL series:

Game 1:
ORL = 40
TOR = 26

Game 2:
ORL = 50
TOR = 26

Game 3:
ORL = 44
TOR = 28

Game 4:
ORL = 42
TOR = 38

Game 5:
ORL = 38
TOR = 34

Total:
ORL = 214
TOR = 152

Average:
ORL = 42.8
TOR = 30.4

Differential = -12.4

Here's a summary of last year's series against New Jersey:

Total:
NJN = 220
TOR = 136

Average:
NJN = 36.7
TOR = 22.7

Differential = -14.0

Past two post seasons:

Total:
OPP = 434
TOR = 288

Average:
OPP = 39.5
TOR = 26.2

Differential = -13.3

BNM


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

RX said:


> So let me ask you a question...do you think if all remained the same, and the Raptors traded Calderon for Outlaw and Pryzbilla...that they would get past the 1st round next year?


It would depend on the 1st round match-up. Add those two, at their current level of play to your roster and you would have definitely beaten the Nets last year, but probably still lost to the Magic this year (although it would have gone more than five games, IMHO, likely a 7 game series).

And while Pryzbilla and Outlaw have been mentioned that's not all Portland has to offer. It was just a first swag at one possible trade that helps address some of your weaknesses. You would definitely be a better post season team with those two than you are today. At least you wouldn't get killed in every game on the glass and in the paint.

Let's look at this from the other direction. Name any other possible trade involving EITHER Ford or Calderon that would get you past the first round next year. Your current roster isn't built for the play-offs. It can't be fixed with one magical trade. It will take multiple moves. Przybilla + Outlaw for Calderon is a start in the right direction, but it's not a total fix.

BNM


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## RX (May 24, 2006)

I'd like to think that some combo of Bargnani + TJ/Jose + Kapono/Delfino/Parker/Garbo + Rasho Expiring can get us a better deal then Outlaw/Pryzbilla. 

Popular choices are:
Maggette (most likely one imo)
Marion
Artest
Miller
Pietrus
Azubuike

To be honest, I don't think we're going to get better anytime soon and will prob wallow for the next few years


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## RX (May 24, 2006)

triple post


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## RX (May 24, 2006)

triple post


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

RX said:


> I'd like to think that some combo of Bargnani + TJ/Jose + Kapono/Delfino/Parker/Garbo + Rasho Expiring can get us a better deal then Outlaw/Pryzbilla.
> 
> Popular choices are:
> Maggette (most likely one imo)
> ...


Even if you get one of those guys, you'd still have a huge gaping hole in the middle. If you trade both Bargnani and Rasho, who's your starting center? Marion or Artest would help with your perimeter defense, but not your weak interior defense. None of the other guys on the list are exceptional defenders or rebounders. Picking up one of these guys would be nice, but you'd still be a poor rebounding team with no interior defense.

BNM


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

Boob-No-More said:


> You might be able to find a summary elsewhere, but the points-in-the-paint totals for each game can be found on the "Game Final" page for each game at nba.com.


thanks anyway. i've tried looking on nba.com and such for a team-by-team ranking of points in the paint. i'd imagine the raptors are inhabiting the cellar, or a floor nearby. that's just not our style of offense. even cb4 is primarily mid-range jumpshooter. but i'd like to see how they compare to other teams and especially to what i'm being lead to believe is a points in the paint powerhouse like portland.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

Boob-No-More said:


> Even if you get one of those guys, you'd still have a huge gaping hole in the middle. If you trade both Bargnani and Rasho, who's your starting center? Marion or Artest would help with your perimeter defense, but not your weak interior defense. None of the other guys on the list are exceptional defenders or rebounders. Picking up one of these guys would be nice, but you'd still be a poor rebounding team with no interior defense.
> 
> BNM


it may seem hard to believe but interior defense is not really our problem. both rasho and bargnani are good defenders at the 5. where we fail is perimeter defense. part of that are the individual perimeter defenders we have and part of that is the method which we deploy our perimeter defense.

anthony parker, jamario moon, carlos delfino, tj.ford, are all pretty good defenders. even kapono, while a poor man-to-man guy, was referred to by pat riley as the heat's best help defender. (i've yet to really see that). so if those guys are actually fair-to-good defenders, its got to be the system within which they're playing, isn't it?

we regularly get killed over helping and expose open shots in the process.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

spuriousjones said:


> thanks anyway. i've tried looking on nba.com and such for a team-by-team ranking of points in the paint. i'd imagine the raptors are inhabiting the cellar, or a floor nearby. that's just not our style of offense. even cb4 is primarily mid-range jumpshooter. but i'd like to see how they compare to other teams and especially to what i'm being lead to believe is a points in the paint powerhouse like portland.


Actually, it's giving up too many points in the paint that is your biggest problem. That's just too many easy points for the other team. Most other teams in this year's play-offs are giving up about 34-35 points in the paint per game. You gave up 42.8.

So, while you are poor at scoring in the paint, the real problem is your weak interior defense.

Portland also was poor at scoring in the paint this year. I don't have any stats, but I seem to recall they were last in the league in scoring in the paint. Oden will help address that issue.

BNM


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

spuriousjones said:


> it may seem hard to believe but interior defense is not really our problem. both rasho and bargnani are good defenders at the 5. where we fail is perimeter defense. part of that are the individual perimeter defenders we have and part of that is the method which we deploy our perimeter defense.


You just lost a series where you gave up an average of almost 43 points in the paint per game. That's WAY too many easy points for your opponents. Yes, your perimeter defense is part of the problem, but with no shot blocker in the middle other teams guards and forwards drive the lane without fear once they beat their man on the perimeter. Last year the Nets killed you with their guards and small forward driving the lane. There's more to good interior defense than just guarding the other teams center (something your bigs didn't do exceptionally well, either). Dwight Howard didn't score all of those 43 points in the paint per game. Guys like Hedo and Jameer Nelson were driving the lane without fear against you. Why wouldn't they? Your two centers combined to block a total of five shots in the entire five game series.

BNM


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

Boob-No-More said:


> You just lost a series where you gave up an average of almost 43 points in the paint per game. That's WAY too many easy points for your opponents. Yes, your perimeter defense is part of the problem, but with no shot blocker in the middle other teams guards and forwards drive the lane without fear once they beat their man on the perimeter. Last year the Nets killed you with their guards and small forward driving the lane. There's more to good interior defense than just guarding the other teams center (something your bigs didn't do exceptionally well, either). Dwight Howard didn't score all of those 43 points in the paint per game. Guys like Hedo and Jameer Nelson were driving the lane without fear against you. Why wouldn't they? Your two centers combined to block a total of five shots in the entire five game series.
> 
> BNM


with all due respect, you're only half-right. spurious is bang on. sure, the interior defense looks disgusting right now, the raps' defensive rebounding is awful, but man-on-man, bosh and bargnani (and nesterovic) are not the primary problem. if the perimeter defense were passable, they wouldn't have to _be_ shotblockers/erasers on every possession. yes, for this team right now with its current lot of matador wings and guards, they need an eraser down low. but one shotblocker (at 1bpg) inside wouldn't necessarily solve the problem, either- it would only conceal it somewhat. the price the team already pays from its constant calls for help defense and rotations would not change much. 

what's more, i certainly don't think adding a shotblocker to come _off the bench_ would address anything (which is what would happen if the raptors stayed with their plan to develop bargnani on the inside). to his credit, kris humphries is already a decent defender- not a shotblocker in przybilla's league, no, but not rafael araujo or andrea bargnani either. he's also far more athletic than joel przybilla and is certainly more of an offensive threat. and yet he doesn't change anything when he comes in the game. the interior defense is just as bad with kris as it is without him. hell, you could put hakeem olajuwon in there and i really don't know how much of a change it would bring.

and listen, you're talking about joel przybilla and travis outlaw like they're widely coveted players.  i've heard more than i want to know about these two, to be honest. the raptors do not need more depth- which is what they would bring. the raptors need stars, at least one more. they have redundancy on the wing already while przybilla is hardly a difference-maker (as you know all too well). you can't change that by simply _wanting_ to believe it. as far as the raptors as concerned, jose calderon's dog is worth more than those two because they don't need them!  

whether premature or not, the raps consider calderon a 'star' player, something outlaw and przybilla certainly are not (to say nothing of joel's injury history). for a team that needs stars, it would be asinine to trade one of their only two (calderon) in exchange for two rotation pieces from a team that missed the playoffs.

you're trying to make a case, i give you credit. but whenever one feels it necessary to *make a case*, chances are that it will never happen in reality. calderon for przybilla/outlaw sounds good to one person on this board- part of that has to do with our homerism, but i think most of it has to do with yours.

peace


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

we where outscored in the paint against a team lead by D-HO?

Wow, what a shock.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

shookem said:


> we where outscored in the paint against a team lead by D-HO?
> 
> Wow, what a shock.


Yeah, and last year you were out scored in the paint by an even wider margin and sent home by a team with a Jason Collins and Mikki Moore starting front court.

But hey, keep thinking rebounding and interior defense aren't problems. 

BNM


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

ballocks said:


> what's more, i certainly don't think adding a shotblocker to come _off the bench_ would address anything (which is what would happen if the raptors stayed with their plan to develop bargnani on the inside).


If that's the plan, you better hope you draft the next Michael Jordan or you'll never make it out of the first round. Andrea Bargnani is the weakest rebounding starting center in the last 20 years. Given your weak interior defense and poor rebounding, any sane coach would start Joel over Bargnani. Joel had 26 rebounds in a game just over a month ago. When was the last time a Raptor had 26 rebounds in a game? NEVER! You'd have to add up Bargnani's rebounds for his last 10 games to get to 26. If Bargnani is your answer at center there is no hope of getting beyond the 1st round.



ballocks said:


> jose calderon's dog is worth more than those two because they don't need them!


So, it's better to have TWO starting caliber point guards than a good rebounding, defensive minded starting center and a wing player who averaged more points off the bench than anyone on your team not named Chris Bosh? Did you miss that part where you keep getting bounced in the play-offs because you get killed on the glass and in the paint? Of course, you might want to hold onto Calderon's dog. He could probably pull down more rebounds than Bargnani.

BNM


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

everybody knows one of toronto's weakness is rebounding/shot blocking & inside scoring.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

Boob-No-More said:


> If that's the plan, you better hope you draft the next Michael Jordan or you'll never make it out of the first round. Andrea Bargnani is the weakest rebounding starting center in the last 20 years. Given your weak interior defense and poor rebounding, any sane coach would start Joel over Bargnani. Joel had 26 rebounds in a game just over a month ago. When was the last time a Raptor had 26 rebounds in a game? NEVER! You'd have to add up Bargnani's rebounds for his last 10 games to get to 26. If Bargnani is your answer at center there is no hope of getting beyond the 1st round.


well, i didn't say i agreed with it. just the way it is. if they choose to hold onto bargnani, przybilla would serve no purpose. trading for przybilla would, in my hypothetical world, probably force the team to deal bargnani, too. and they haven't shown a willingness to do that yet. that was sort of the point.



> So, it's better to have TWO starting caliber point guards than a good rebounding, defensive minded starting center and a wing player who averaged more points off the bench than anyone on your team not named Chris Bosh? Did you miss that part where you keep getting bounced in the play-offs because you get killed on the glass and in the paint?


a lot of conjecture there.  never said it's better to have tj and jose. i think it's accepted that tj's gone in july. just meant that i wouldn't deal either of them for joel & outlaw because that wouldn't address what ails the team to the extent that it would justify the trade. 

but you do love stats! cool. i'm not a stats hound myself. mike james was a 20 ppg scorer but we let him walk and replaced him with a 14 ppg scorer who led our team to 47 wins and a division title. hmm. i'm not one to care whether outlaw averaged half a point more than four of our players or joel pulled down 26 rebounds one night (or charlie villanueva scored 48). those are oversimplified #'s that make them look good but i'd rather see the entire package (as you do well when you talk about bargnani). as far as i'm concerned, przybilla is an injury-prone half-starter who doesn't do much but rebound the basketball. outlaw is a five-year veteran who's getting better but i mean, will never attract all-star consideration like jose calderon.

and if przybilla's contract is "reasonable" while tj ford's is "untradeable", i'll have to ask whether you have a middle ground anywhere at all.

the blazers may yet find a pg to take their team to the next level. but it won't be easy to find him by peddling players who appear to be of no clear value to the blazers themselves. heck, the raptors acquired rasho nesterovic for matt bonner- matt bonner- and when you consider the mass balance on durability, offense, defense, leadership and experience, rasho is in many ways superior to joel. that the raptors might need joel more than rasho given the rest of their team is irrelevant when it comes to the trade market. 

but i mean, if the raptors did have to overpay to acquire joel przybilla just because they could really use a shotblocker (if only by reputation), i can only imagine what the blazers would have to part with to acquire a pg like tj ford or jose calderon. luckily, the nba doesn't work like that.

peace


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

the point i believe most are trying to make is that some blazers's fans are looking at the raps roster and think jose or tj are the only pieces that are available in a trade.

i'm a huge joel prz fan, i wanted them to sign him when there was a window of opportunity. in fact, i'm probably in favour of trade of this flavour but beating a dead horse online does nothing to get jose into a blazers uni.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Boob-No-More said:


> If that's the plan, you better hope you draft the next Michael Jordan or you'll never make it out of the first round. Andrea Bargnani is the weakest rebounding starting center in the last 20 years. Given your weak interior defense and poor rebounding, any sane coach would start Joel over Bargnani. Joel had 26 rebounds in a game just over a month ago. When was the last time a Raptor had 26 rebounds in a game? NEVER! You'd have to add up Bargnani's rebounds for his last 10 games to get to 26. If Bargnani is your answer at center there is no hope of getting beyond the 1st round.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Holy sh!t you don't get it, yes we need to upgrade.....Joel is not the guy. He was a starting center who played less than 24 minutes per game, he will be 30 years old heading into the 09 season and has injury history...not a good thing with a big. Outlaw and Joel would be a step...but that step would end with a very short journey. If we trade Jose we will need to get something better, if that means we give up our pick in a deep draft and add Kapono or Delfino so be it. As far as Outlaw and Joel go they are not going to be any team's savior. We can afford to make a package for a star player, we have Roko and and a Greek player to fill out a roster if we move a point guard, pick, and filler to bring in a high quality player not named Joel.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

billfindlay10 said:


> Holy sh!t you don't get it, yes we need to upgrade.....Joel is not the guy. He was a starting center who played less than 24 minutes per game, he will be 30 years old heading into the 09 season and has injury history...not a good thing with a big. Outlaw and Joel would be a step...but that step would end with a very short journey. If we trade Jose we will need to get something better, if that means we give up our pick in a deep draft and add Kapono or Delfino so be it. As far as Outlaw and Joel go they are not going to be any team's savior. We can afford to make a package for a star player, we have Roko and and a Greek player to fill out a roster if we move a point guard, pick, and filler to bring in a high quality player not named Joel.


Who? What team is going to trade you a "star" that isn't well past his prime and overpaid? Seriously, who is this savior you speak of and how are you going to get him? Curious minds want to know. You think you're going to get a star without giving one up? How's that going to work? You have the 17th pick in a mediocre draft, an undersized, selfish, injury prone PG, and possibly Rasho's expiring contract (there goes the one almost decent big man on your roster). And you think you're going to somehow turn this into a star player? Good luck with that.

BNM


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Boob-No-More said:


> Who? What team is going to trade you a "star" that isn't well past his prime and overpaid? Seriously, who is this savior you speak of and how are you going to get him? Curious minds want to know. You think you're going to get a star without giving one up? How's that going to work? You have the 17th pick in a mediocre draft, an undersized, selfish, injury prone PG, and possibly Rasho's expiring contract (there goes the one almost decent big man on your roster). And you think you're going to somehow turn this into a star player? Good luck with that.
> 
> BNM


So Jose in a sign and trade along with the 17th in a more than mediocre(contrary to what you say)draft, the leagues #1 3 point shooter coming off a very good playoffs, along with Rasho's expiring contract can't get us anything close to a star?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

If Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittiton and some picks can get you Pau Gasol, Jose Calderon/Rasho Nesterovic (same amount of expiring contract) along with a pick should also get you someone useful. I'm not saying Colangelo can pull something like that, but I don't see how you rule it out when it just happened about 2-3 months ago.

As I said, Jose Calderon is one of the hottest trade commodity this offseason. Instead of ridiculing the Raptors players, perhaps you should go back and look at your offer compare with some of the potential offers from other teams. Calderon can be considered an upgrade at PG for 2/3 of the teams. If you package him with 8 mil worth of expiring contract how is that not a package that will get you a potential all-star?



Boob-No-More said:


> selfish, injury prone PG


Who is saying that we're trading TJ for a star? This OP asked for Calderon and most of the discussion has been about Calderon. If it's TJ Ford you guys want then Outlaw and/or Przybilla is certainly a valid offer.


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## HurraKane212 (Aug 2, 2007)

You know when you're in a bar and your friend is drunk and starts to get on the "raving" side?

Come on BNM, you've had enough, lets go back over to the Blazers forum... :whistling:


J/K

;-)


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