# Webber



## Zuca (Dec 4, 2003)

I've writed in Sac Forum...

Is a good idea?


New York trades: PF Mike Sweetney (4.3 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 0.3 apg in 11.8 minutes) 
C Kurt Thomas (11.1 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 1.9 apg in 31.9 minutes) 
SG Allan Houston (18.5 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 2.0 apg in 36.0 minutes) 
New York receives: SG Doug Christie (10.1 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 4.2 apg in 33.9 minutes) 
PF Chris Webber (18.7 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 4.6 apg in 36.1 minutes) 
Change in team outlook: -5.1 ppg, -1.7 rpg, and +4.6 apg. 

Sacramento trades: SG Doug Christie (10.1 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 4.2 apg in 33.9 minutes) 
PF Chris Webber (18.7 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 4.6 apg in 36.1 minutes) 
Sacramento receives: PF Mike Sweetney (4.3 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 0.3 apg in 42 games) 
C Kurt Thomas (11.1 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 1.9 apg in 80 games) 
SG Allan Houston (18.5 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 2.0 apg in 50 games) 
Change in team outlook: +5.1 ppg, +1.7 rpg, and -4.6 apg. 

TRADE ACCEPTED

Due to New York and Sacramento being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. New York and Sacramento had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.


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You have been assigned Trade ID number 1836221


With Christie, there's no need to play Crawford at PG (Christie is a better passer)... Webber is still a force, and can dominate..

In Sac side, Houston has 1 year less in his contract, and Kurt/Sweetney can helps too (Especially if Sweetney live up his big potential)


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

take Sweetney out of the deal,otherwise you can keep Webber.Layden no longer runs the Knicks


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## Dr. J (Jul 12, 2002)

I agree, no Sweetney. We have to have someone there to play when Webber is out.


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## Zuca (Dec 4, 2003)

I was rethinking and you guys are right... Sweetney has a good future...

So, without Sweetney (Webber and Christie for Kurt Thomas and Allan Houston), is a good move for both teams, huh?!

Hey, it can works... Is a talent downgrade for Kings, but it means 10 millions less in salaries combined...


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I would move H20,Kt,Naz,but would like to keep the core of TT,Sweetny,JC,and Marbury intact for at least one season...

What we really need is a defensive presense at center..


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## Peja Vu (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Zuca</b>!
> I was rethinking and you guys are right... Sweetney has a good future...
> 
> So, without Sweetney (Webber and Christie for Kurt Thomas and Allan Houston), is a good move for both teams, huh?!
> ...


Try again...


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

That deal would never happen,but in all honesty even if it could,Webber is not what we need..


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## Zuca (Dec 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Peja Vu</b>!
> 
> 
> Try again...


Ok, Chris Crawford for Bobby Jackson?    

JUST KIDDING!


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

I don't get why everyone is so obsessed with Mike Sweetney. Newsflash, he's going to have to be dealt if the Knicks want to dump a bad contract like Houston.

Webber might have a bad contract, but he's a much better player than Houston.

Who plays when Webber is out? How about the other 5 PFs on the team? Like Vin Baker.

I doubt Sacramento would do the deal anyway, since Webber/Christie >>>>>>>>> Thomas/Houston


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> I don't get why everyone is so obsessed with Mike Sweetney. Newsflash, he's going to have to be dealt if the Knicks want to dump a bad contract like Houston.


Dealing Sweetney is not the end of the world.Dealing him for a guy who is often injured is IDIOTIC...

And Webber is not the answer to the Knicks problems as you said yourself.We have 5 power fowards...We need a center,preferably with a defensive presence who isnt 45..

Unless we get a player who can take us to the promised land,why trade our youth???


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

BTW,h20's contract isnt BAD..It may be the WORST in the NBA..courtesy of.whats his name


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> And Webber is not the answer to the Knicks problems as you said yourself.We have 5 power fowards...We need a center,preferably with a defensive presence who isnt 45..


Theres a difference between 5 PFs and 1 very good PF with 4 PFs. The Pacers for example, employed these 5 PFs last year. Jermaine O'Neal, Jeff Foster, Al Harrington, Austin Croshere, and Jonathon Bender. Take away Jermaine O'Neal and replace him with Kurt Thomas, and do you really think the Pacers win 60 games?

The Knicks don't need a center as much as they do a legit post presence. Look at the east teams who made the playoffs this year. Jeff Foster, Ben Wallace, Jason Collins, Brian Grant, Jamaal Magloire, Brian Skinner, Nazr Mohammed, and Mark Blount manned the center positions. Who were the successful teams? The ones with good PFs. Indiana had Jermaine, Detroit had Rasheed, Jersey had Kenyon, Miami had Odom. It's no secret that they were the top 4 PFs in the east. Kenyon and Odom are gone. A diminished Webber is no worse than Rasheed, and a revitalized Webber is as good as Jermaine.



> Unless we get a player who can take us to the promised land,why trade our youth???


You could say the same about the Marbury trade. You know, when the Knicks dealt 20 million in cap room AND youth, as opposed to two vets with ugly contracts (Houston/Thomas).

Of course, the main reasoning people seemed to have for justification of dealing away all the quality trading assets for one player was "Who was the last PG as good as Marbury to play for the Knicks?" Well, I'll pose that question right now - Who was the last PF as good as Webber to play for the Knicks?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> BTW,h20's contract isnt BAD..It may be the WORST in the NBA..courtesy of.whats his name


James Dolan?


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> James Dolan?


Why do you think the owner, who acknowledges he knows little to nothing about the sport, would play a greater role in salary negotiations than his "expert" GM?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> You could say the same about the Marbury trade. You know, when the Knicks dealt 20 million in cap room AND youth, as opposed to two vets with ugly contracts (Houston/Thomas


You could but you would be incorrect,,here is why

the Marbury trade worked out huge in our favor....There were two factors which worked in our favor..

1,we made the playoffs,so our first round pick pick was garbage
2,vaporknick became vapor sun....

so we gave up lampe,eisly,dyss,ward and a conditional pick for penny and Marbury...Thats a joke,bordering on steal.Keep in mind,the Suns cleared usable cap space..Coangelo is no whatshisname.

The error in your logic from a business/bball perspective is the Knicks wont be under the cap till the H20/whatshisname fiasco is finally over.So taking penny on for one more year is NO big deal.As far as i am concerned you can overpay anyone for the next 2 years,and only young talented guys for longer

I agree,jermaine Oneal is better that 5 avg power fowards..Hes young and durable..Ill trade all 5 for him..

But we are talking about Webber,not JO....Webber is injury prone,not the best guy in the clubhouse,and really doesnt take over at the end of games...Most importantly he keeps getting hurt

Sweetney may become that low post presense


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Rashidi,when we do our pool,I am curious to see what stats you put down for Sweetney


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Sweetney may become that low post presense


Huh? Webber is one of the top 5 PFs of the last decade. Sweetney will be lucky if he is ever even top 5 for one season. I am wondering what exactly is seen in this guy that will make him anything more than a Spoon or Boozer-lite. Your prediction of 11 rpg is interesting, considering the number of players that have even averaged 10 in the last 3 years is rather low.

The biggest "knock" against Webber is that he isn't a winner. Has it been so long since Sacramento got screwed out of a championship by the refs?



> 1,we made the playoffs,so our first round pick pick was garbage


*BLINK*

Garbage?

15. Al Jefferson - Taken with the Knick pick, he impressed a lot in the Summer league, and it's debateable whether Sweetney will be better than him.

16. Kirk Snyder - I'll take him over Crawford.

17 - 19. Josh Smith, JR Smith, Dorrell Wright - Let's just say that I'd be more excited about them than Trevor Ariza

20. Jameer Nelson - Hey look, the college player of the year. If the Marbury trade isn't made, he's most likely the player the Knicks take. Either that or Telfair never gets that merchandising deal in Portland, he gets the deal in NY, which means Portland takes Nelson instead of Telfair. In either case, the Knicks get a PG to look forward to.

21. Pavel Podzolkine - Ooh, a center with offensive skill. To hell with Pavel, we have Bruno Sundov, right?



> so we gave up lampe,eisly,dyss,ward and a conditional pick for penny and Marbury...Thats a joke,bordering on steal.


The double standard truly is puzzling. In addition to getting Marbury, the Knicks are saddled with taking *Penny Hardaway, a washed up injury prone player who is making as much as Webber is, yet isn't even half as effective on the court*. What a steal, eh? Yet if the Knicks were to upgrade in talent, they SHOULDN'T because of one young player? Make up your mind already. Win now, go young, pick one already. If the Knicks aren't going to win a championship with Webber, they damn sure aren't going to win one with Sweetney.

You know what kills me? The Knicks trade all of their assets for not one, but TWO shoot first PGs, and the moment there's an opportunity to improve a position that actually needs improving, everyone has cold feet.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

PAVEL?????????????please,dont go there

Spoon???thats whatshisnames signing..dont go there.....

as for # 14 ,15,16 if the knicks wanted any of them Zeke could have got them...

Zeke clearly feels JC is going to be great,and no matter what you say,or I say,time will tell

Just make sure you remember that you picked K Snyder of JC.We will revisit this later...




> The double standard truly is puzzling. In addition to getting Marbury, the Knicks are saddled with taking Penny Hardaway, a washed up injury prone player who is making as much as Webber is, yet isn't even half as effective on the court. What a steal, eh? Yet if the Knicks were to upgrade in talent, they SHOULDN'T because of one young player? Make up your mind already. Win now, go young, pick one already


Rashidi,it is you who cant make up your mind..Marbury is YOUNG..Penny was a throw in to accomadate the trade.It was salary we had to take.And his contract expires at the same time as H20's..Its not a 5 year contract.You are missing the logic from a financial viewpoint..

If you think about it Zeke traded Lampe for Marbury...VaporKnick vapored again,Dyss is whatshisnames biggest blunder,Eisly is garbage and along with ward cancels out penny....

Your biggest fallacy is thinking that Webber is YOUNG.He is NOT.Marbury is young..Webber is 31 and has injured thruout his career.In 11 seasons,he has stayed injury free 5 times...5!!!!

Last year he played in 23 games..Thats it..3 years ago,he played in 54 games...The guy is ALWAYS hurt...You arent making any sense whatsoever....

You want to trade H20 for Webber,lets do it....But dont tell me a 31 year old always injured Webber with 3 years left on his contract is the same as a healthy,younger Marbury....Think about it


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Your prediction of 11 rpg is interesting, considering the number of players that have even averaged 10 in the last 3 years is rather low.


Ill answer that..,as a fat,out of shape rookie,plus his dad just died Sweetney avg 15.3 rebounds per 48 minutes ...BTW,that is 7th in the league behind KG,Duncan,Wallace,Damp,Boozer and Camby

As a FAT ROOKIE!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Zuca (Dec 4, 2003)

Oh well.. It seems like a move for Webber with Sweetney (H20, Thomas and Sweetney for Webber and Christie) is a bad move for the most part of Knicks fans, and the simple move (H20 and Thomas for Christie and Webber) seems like a bad move for Kings... So, we can find some middle-term to make this proposal works good for both teams...

The advantages for both teams I've said (Webber can be injury-prone, but he is still a great PF, and he can help NY a lot, Christie can backup Crawford, or even start... With Crawford, you guys don't need H20... In Kings side, it's good financially, and Thomas is a good PF too.. also, with Kings trading Webber, maybe Peja stays in Sacto)


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Webber is super talented...If he wasnt 31 and very injury prone,trading away our youth may be worth it......

Webbers next injury will more than likely be his last


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*One small correction, Truth....*

We actually gave up (2) 1st round draft picks in that trade...next years #1 as well. It was a helluva lot to give. Check out how the guys we could have had are doing in 2-3 years and see how you feel. I never liked the trade. I feel it was to much to give up for an erratic, non-winning pg with very good pg STATS. Funny thing is, he played his best ball for us when he was teamed up with KVH, a guy he disdained in NJ. Not making any player comparisons but I think we were a better team pre TT trade. The chemistry was really god. Whether or not the team can reclaim that chemistry is probably the single biggest factor of the teams future success.(IMHO)


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

A BIG CORRECTION ALFA..

The second pick is conditional out to 2010 or something like that...

so you are half right....i left it out as a conditional pick is no big deall


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

So Alfa,you do not like trading Eisly,Ward,Dyss,Lampe,Vapor ,the knicks pick and a conditional pick for Stephon marbury and Penny...

I couldnt care less about those picks..Conditional picks are garbage as they are lottery protected and as I said before,teams traded their picks for expiring contracts.Zeke clearly felt JC was better than any pick out there..

I cant imagine you liked Ward and Eisly at the point...maybe you do..And would you have wanted to resign McDyss for 3 more years like Detroit did??

Eisly,Ward and Mcdyss vs Penny is a wash salary wise.One may argue that there is a chance MacD comes back,but thats a long shot..

As for vapor,he is just a distant memory of the illustrious Layden legacy..He is still a no show..

So you essentially traded lampe for marbury and took on longer duration cap space,which is irrelavant as we were #$^&ed duel to the H20 deal...

If you are telling me you HATE Marbury and love lampe,I could go along with that..

But the mandate from the Dolans is to put a competitive product on the floor,and that trade was a step in the right direction...Unless you forgot what it was like with Eisly at PG and laydumb at gm


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Spoon???thats whatshisnames signing..dont go there.....


I'm talking about the young Spoon.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Truth...*

conditional or not, they are first round picks....2! of them. There are lots of reasons teams trade 1st rounders and not all of them indicate a lack of talent. With todays cap problems teams are reluctent to sign guys to a guaranteed contract if they don't have a real need for them.

No, I did not like Ward or Eisley. Yes, I did like FW and think he would have ended up solid for us. I also liked the probable lotto pick we would have had after h2o went out. Its all speculation but FW and Snyder would be a nice backcourt, don't you think? Add Lampe at center, VH at PF, and you have the makings of a POTENTIALLY very good young team with lots of money coming off the books in a couple of years plus drat picks. We had 2 big holes before the trade...3(or4) and 5. We still have a huge hole at the 5 and the 3 is undetermined as of yet, but now we have no picks or incoming cap room. Sweetney would have filled the 4 if you like VH at the 3(I didn't). No matter..its done.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I will admit, in spite of all the energy I put into defending the Marbury trade, there are many days I wonder what else might have been...

But I'd have been willing to give up the two picks, even if we got NO ONE for them, just to get rid of Laysuck. So even on my worst days I still feel we came out well ahead.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Yes...*

Layden was a big problem ...Amen


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Oak,on the record,i dont even think hes a great true point guard..But the trade makes sense considering the knicks were/are in cap hell,and they made the playoffs,which lessened the impact of giving up a really good pick.

i am not saying that was the trade i would have liked to have seen.But I am saying they got the better of that deal..

I was one of the founding fathers of Dump layden,Nuke the Knicks..So you know my thoughts..

I think we are all forgetting how horrible it was to watch the Knicks for a while..It was brutal


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Right, I'm off the Marbury band wagon. There are games I curse him and hate him. But the only other likely scenarios where to trade our expiring contracts for the likes of Sheed. And with all of Marbury's faults I do think he's at least as much an impact player as Rasheed, and with less baggage.

We did okay. I'm rooting for rather than against these guys again. That's important.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I am with you and Alfa..Amen to layden being yesterdays news,and I still want to see Marbury make his team mates better,and stop dribblint the $%%$% ball..

I dont mind not getting rasheed,though he is leaps and bounds over KT..I remember arguing that last year:upset: 

Remember we had Doleac and Deke last year...I could live with that...I could Live with Van Horn...H20 getting hurt killed us,and JC is great insurance.

What I couldnt bear ever again is watching Howard Eisly play...

Going after Steph was the right move..That was our glaring weakness


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

i didnt like the van horn trade either. Doleac and Van horn were two of our best players during our winning streak with marbury here. after the trade, the chemistry was gone, and we played terrible the rest of the year. we still won games, but we had the easiest possible schedule the last two months. i believe we only played like 5 playoff teams in those two months.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

didnt kurt thomas not miss a shot for like 5 games during that stretch..in hindsight Zeke really Fukked Van Horn..:no:


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