# Dirk > KG?



## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Is the Diggler better than the all-mighty Kevin Garnett? I am making this thread, to tell you that Dirk is better and is a better player to have on your team.

Let's start in the playoffs, before I bring out the stats lets speak about team success. In 8 years, KG has led his team out of the first round *ONCE*, une, uno, eins. As everyone loves to say on this board, stats dont really matter it's the team success . KG is 17-28 in the playoffs! Thats pathetic. Dirk has led his team from rags to riches, from the lotto to the WCF. He really steps it up in the playoffs, where it matters MOST, so could someone tell Mr. Garnett that

2000/2001: Second round (including a defeat of KG's wolves)
2001/2002: Second round
2002/2003: WCF (another defeat of KG's wolves)
2003/2004: First round

Kevin Garnett: 
1996/1997: First Round
1997/1998: First Round
1998/1999: First Round
2000/2001: First Round
2001/2002: First Round
2002/2003: First Round
2003/2004: WCF

See a pattern?

Now getting to the stats:

Dirk is a more efficient scorer in the playoffs, he gets 3 more points in just under the same time and they are shooting the same percentage. Where the offensive advantage kicks in, is in other points. In the playoffs, Dirk is money from the freethrow line shooting 4% better than he does in the regular season at 89%. 

Rebounding, KG has a slight edge over Dirk

KG also leads Dirk in assists, however this is made up for as Dirk has over a turnover (1.38 to be exact) less than Kevin. If you have the ball in your hand so much, you need to be more effect with it.

Now, lets get onto the series where it was Dirk vs KG. Dirk was absolutely dominant there, and made KG look like his *****. This All-NBA defender, couldn't guard Dirk if his life depended on it. In the 3 game sweep against the Wolves, Dirk averaged 33.3 points per game, 15.7 rebounds per game, 1.3 blockes per game and 3 steals per game. Oh yeah, while shooting 53% FG, 73% 3PT and 89% FT

*Game 1:* _pts, rebs, stls, blocks, asts_ 
Dirk Nowitzki: 30/15/2/3/0
Kevin Garnett: 19/21/1/2/6
EDGE: Dirk Nowitzki, fairly easily

*Game 2:* 
Dirk Nowitzki: 31/15/4/1/2
Kevin Garnett: 31/18/2/3/4
EDGE: Kevin Garnett, only justs

*Game 3:* 
Dirk Nowitzki: 39/17/3/0/0
Kevin Garnett: 21/17/2/0/5
EDGE: Dirk Nowitzki, by a landslide

Dallas won the series by an average off around 10.5 points per game, while KG was "contained" to "only" 24 points per and on 43% shooting. Another stat...Dirk only averaged 2 turnovers a game, KG averaged 4!

Then, there's been the Wolves as of late. Last season, KG *finally* made it out of the first round and KG was thought to of been the best player in the game. This season, KG has been re-exposed. Without Sam-I-Am and Spreewell backing KG up, the Wolves have struggled. They are just above .500, just above .500, just above .500 (just letting it sink in). KG has been shown that he can't lead his team, he is a big case of stats being misleading. He's getting his stats, but the team is losing. Thats what seperates KG from TD and Dirk. Look at this quote from Dirk 



> "It's about winning, not scoring," Nowitzki said. "You do whatever it takes to win. Whether it's score 40 points or 20 points, winning is what matters."


Dirk gets respect from teammates, and doesn't get beefs with them, unlike KG. The offensive mismatches Dirk create are amazing, no one player can guard him, as shown time and time again in the playoffs and regular season. 

Him and Duncan sit atop of the PF list imo, with KG next. They've shown that they can lead their team well, and get them into and out of the first round


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> Hold up, didnt finish it yet


:laugh: 

We're waiting.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Not a chance in hell. Remember, KG is All NBA D, dirk, if I can even put a D in his name, is nowhere near close to that. Hes at best average at D ( and I dont even think hes average at it)

Ask every team in the NBA, every team, including Dallas, would take the Big Ticket.


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## Real McCoy (Oct 17, 2003)

I saw what you wrote and I think it can be argued that you make good points. Dirk has proven more come playoff time and that is where the stars are supposed to come out.


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> Not a chance in hell. Remember, KG is All NBA D, dirk, if I can even put a D in his name, is nowhere near close to that. Hes at best average at D ( and I dont even think hes average at it)
> 
> Ask every team in the NBA, every team, including Dallas, would take the Big Ticket.


I'll take Dirk because he's not an a****** like KG. Acting like gangsta and **** and the time. 

:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: 

Pretty good reasons huh??

Also he shoots way better and when he got his thing going on noone and I mean noone can stop him.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> Not a chance in hell. Remember, KG is All NBA D, dirk, if I can even put a D in his name, is nowhere near close to that. Hes at best average at D ( and I dont even think hes average at it)
> 
> Ask every team in the NBA, every team, including Dallas, would take the Big Ticket.


If KG is all NBA defense, how come he can't come close to stopping the Diggler?

And KG turning 30 this year, Dirk turning 27 this year


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## Greater Levitator (Dec 29, 2004)

Nobody can stop Dirk.


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)




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## Real McCoy (Oct 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> 
> And KG turning 30 this year, Dirk turning 27 this year


Not quite. He turns 29 in May. 10 years in the NBA already. Wow.


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Real McCoy</b>!
> 
> 
> Not quite. He turns 29 in May. 10 years in the NBA already. Wow.


Kobe 7 or ???


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Real McCoy</b>!
> 
> 
> Not quite. He turns 29 in May. 10 years in the NBA already. Wow.


Oops, damn maths deceiving me

It's May 19th aswell

Dirk turns 27 on June 19th


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## Volcom (Mar 28, 2004)

Dirk has JT, Finley, Josh Howard, Stackhouse, Dampier, Marquis Daniels to take pressure off him..

KG has Szcerbiak :sour: and old worn out versions of Cassell and Sprewell.

Put KG on Dallas in place of Dirk and its over.


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Volcom</b>!
> Dirk has JT, Finley, Josh Howard, Stackhouse, Dampier, Marquis Daniels to take pressure off him..
> 
> KG has Szcerbiak :sour: and old worn out versions of Cassell and Sprewell.
> ...


Dirk is better. 


Join me to your rasskassisill thing.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Volcom</b>!
> Dirk has JT, Finley, Josh Howard, Stackhouse, Dampier, Marquis Daniels to take pressure off him..
> 
> KG has Szcerbiak :sour: and old worn out versions of Cassell and Sprewell.
> ...


Wow, have things changed

Last season the old worn out players were near all-stars who formed to be the best trio in the league

Wally > Stackhouse
Hudson = Daniels
Cassell = JT
Wally < Josh Howard
Olowakandi < Dampier
Griffin > Henderson


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> 
> 
> Wow, have things changed
> ...


Yep, almost everyone here called them the best trio and now they're worn out.


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## MagnusPinus (Aug 27, 2003)

Offensively i pick Dirk without a doubt...but Kg brings rebounds, more defence, more assist... In any case is not easy to pick one of the 2 but if I have to choose I take Dirk, because he demonstrated that he can be a monster in the playoffs.. and is unstoppable on offense..:yes:


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## MagnusPinus (Aug 27, 2003)

Offensively i pick Dirk without a doubt...but Kg brings rebounds, more defence, more assist... In any case is not easy to pick one of the 2 but if I have to choose I take Dirk, because he demonstrated that he can be a monster in the playoffs.. and is unstoppable on offense..:yes:


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## Volcom (Mar 28, 2004)

Theo = BigDirk


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Volcom</b>!
> Theo = BigDirk


or Dirkey (Cyprus has been half invaded by Turkey)


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

KG is more talented, he is Mr-I-want-to-do-it-all.

But Dirk is solely a freaking offensive machine. He has his role... as perimeter big man who occasionally plays inside.... mismatch problems. He doesnt need to play point guard to show how good he is.  



Like Duncan..

But KG is better defender and better athelete no contest there.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Nah. I think you could argue that Dirk is the 3rd best player in the league quite easily. He is in the class with Kobe and Shaq. However, the top two are set in stone as it is right now, Duncan and Garnett. 

Dirk can light anyone up. He is the best and most unstoppable scorer in the league. He is a seven footer with a "ridirkulous" touch from outside, and has a post game on top of it. He is just amazing as a scorer. He is also one of the best rebounders this year too. 

If the NBA ever allowed zone, Dirk would be better than KG, and would arguably be the best player in the league. Zone not only favors shooters, but can allow Dirk to be part of zone, where he is actually a pretty good defender.


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## dastrey (Dec 30, 2003)

I'd call it even. KG is an all around impact player. He is very good on both sides of the ball. Dirk isn't as good defensively but he is a monster on offense.


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## Real McCoy (Oct 17, 2003)

If I'm not mistaken, the NBA has zones now. Teams don't play zone against Dallas, because it would be a shooting gallery. 

They may zone a team like the Knicks however. The Knicks zoned Dallas a few weeks back and got annihilated. That's why you can't zone on a regular basis in the NBA, because if you do, that's going to happen.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Its not allowing zone with that stupid 3 in the key rule, thats more like allowing traps. Half the time I see a team play zone in the NBA, they get an isolation run on them and end up getting 3 in the key, which results in a free throw and the ball back. Let teams play a real zone and see how well an isolation works with anyone but guys like Dirk.


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## Real McCoy (Oct 17, 2003)

If 3 in the key is no longer called and a real zone could be played, then you would see ball and player movement have to return to be effective.

Although, I still don't like seeing zone defense. You can have player movement against man to man, it just takes playing like a team to do it and guys being committed to the system. 

Although, if your team only plays halfcourt basketball, there is no way guys are going to be committed to expending that much energy and never seeing the ball. See if you fastbreak, you give more touches out there and guys feel more involved.

Kind of how Phoenix, Dallas and Sacramento play.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*please lenny no*



> Originally posted by <b>Real McCoy</b>!
> The Knicks zoned Dallas a few weeks back and got annihilated.


lenny


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Real McCoy</b>!
> If 3 in the key is no longer called and a real zone could be played, then you would see ball and player movement have to return to be effective.


Hell yeah. 



> Originally posted by <b>Real McCoy</b>!
> Although, I still don't like seeing zone defense. You can have player movement against man to man, it just takes playing like a team to do it and guys being committed to the system.


I think its the coaches too. In man to man, coaches and players become obsessed with matchups. Why move the ball around when player A can never guard player B, so clear a side for him. In zone, there is no matchups. Its team A trying to score on team B, and player A can't score on team B alone, it has to be a team effort.


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## jaja (Jan 4, 2005)

KG is better in every category. KG is almost like the oscar robertson, but 7 feet tall. you cant beat that


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

Dirk is a better scorer than KG, but KG is better than Dirk at literally everything else, while still being an excellent scorer himself.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> Its not allowing zone with that stupid 3 in the key rule, thats more like allowing traps. Half the time I see a team play zone in the NBA, they get an isolation run on them and end up getting 3 in the key, which results in a free throw and the ball back. Let teams play a real zone and see how well an isolation works with anyone but guys like Dirk.


I agree with this. Fans would enjoy watching the NBA more, I think, if real zone was allowed. The highlight real slashers who can't shoot would go away, but team play would increase and I think this would bring in my hardcore fans. The game is kind of ridiculous to watch sometimes, when there is a stoppage of play every minute or so for fouls. I don't think watching foul shots is a very fun thing to do.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> Is the Diggler better than the all-mighty Kevin Garnett? I am making this thread, to tell you that Dirk is better and is a better player to have on your team.


First Dirk is better than JO, now Garnett? No to both.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

In the past I would have said KG well over Dirk but this year it seems like Dirk is playing for the German National Team every NBA game.

Dirk's not a great defender but he isn't bad. He's rebounding is close to but not quite at KG's level. KG has more assists but has more turnovers as well. Then on the offensive end, Dirk is just a freakin matchup nightmare.

Dirk seems to pick it up in the playoffs a bit more then Garnett and has outplayed KG when their teams have matched up.

It will be interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out but I could easily see Dirk winning the MVP this year and deserving it too


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

can i have them both on my team. i think k.g.'s game is a little decieving, he comes across as this tough guy out there but when you watch his game he's a little soft. add to that he has to have things go his way or he's always mouthing off about something. dirk's major flaw is his defense but when you look at the +- of the guys he goes against his numbers usually dwarf his opponent. i would take dirk because his ego doesnt get in the way of his teams success. its like picking between a couple of supermodels. do you want blonde or brunette.


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> 
> 
> Wow, have things changed
> ...


Actually, yes, things have changed, and I really don't see how you can ignore that.

Last year, Spree and Sam played very well to compliment KG, and the team would have gone to the NBA Finals had Cassell not gotten hurt.

This year, Spree and Sam are *****ing, playing like crap, and generally not caring and the TWolves are fighting for a playoff spot.

What's so hard to understand about that?


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## mff4l (Dec 31, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Matt85163</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually, yes, things have changed, and I really don't see how you can ignore that.
> ...



all this offseason all people said that dirk would suffer cause nash isn't there. even though the mavs are last in the league in dimes dirk is still top three in scoring. he's getting to the line (2nd in the league at that) and is doing it every night. There have been games where dirk has carried this team to wins. So don't GIMME THAT. 

the mavs have the fourth best record in the west even with daniels not being healthy all year, finley missed 15 games, stack missed five, dampier is just now getting healthy, same for terry. This team is STILL NOT HEALTHY because daniels is hurt. Yet they are being kept afloat by dirk. At one point and time the mavs were starting 3 guys who had less than 6 years of nba experience combined. That was until the past 8 games and they have stilled outplayed the wolves. 

Heck the wolves only managed to beat the mavs by a POINT WITHOUT DIRK AND FINLEY. that's pathetic.

Then dirk plays (finley didn't) and the mavs led all game. in the second game this year.

You act like the mavs didn't have a shot at beating the spurs with dirk 3 years ago dude. Dirk missed the final 3 games. Bradley was hurt. Eshmeyer was hurt and raef was the tallest mav on the court at 6 10 battling drob down low while walt williams was guarding duncan. 

Both of these guys are great players but dirk is ten times the player kg is in the playoffs. 

Every year the media gives kg a pass for his off the court antics, on the court antics, and failure to STEP UP AND BE A LEADER.


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

Wow..."No COMPARISON"

Garnett:
All-Star MVP
NBA MVP
7 All-NBA 
4 All-NBA 1st Team
6 Time All-Defensive
Only Player to ever average 20, 10, 5,1 1 for 6 seasons
9 Time NBA All-Star
Rebound Champ 04

Dirk:
3 Time All-NBA 2nd Team and 3rd Team
3 Time All-Star


now you tell me who won? They see KG, they run. 

DIRK HASNT EVEN BEEN ALL-NBA 1st Team!


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## mff4l (Dec 31, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBigTicketKG21</b>!
> Wow..."No COMPARISON"
> 
> Garnett:
> ...


how many times has dirk been outta round 1 compared to kg again?


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

Nobody is saying Garnett sucks...its just that more and more people are realizing Dirk is a little better...


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>mff4l</b>!
> 
> how many times has dirk been outta round 1 compared to kg again?


So when does getting outta the first round determine if a player is better? Michael Finley is better than T-Mac? Baron is better than Lebron? Besides they have both gotten to the WCF with a supporting cast. Has Dirk ever lead his team by himself to the Playoffs in his second season?


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBigTicketKG21</b>!
> 
> 
> So when does getting outta the first round determine if a player is better? Michael Finley is better than T-Mac? Baron is better than Lebron? Besides they have both gotten to the WCF with a supporting cast. Has Dirk ever lead his team by himself to the Playoffs in his second season?


KG didnt lead that year...Marbury did...


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## mff4l (Dec 31, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBigTicketKG21</b>!
> 
> 
> So when does getting outta the first round determine if a player is better? Michael Finley is better than T-Mac? Baron is better than Lebron? Besides they have both gotten to the WCF with a supporting cast. Has Dirk ever lead his team by himself to the Playoffs in his second season?


so jordan didn't win six ships with A SUPPORTING CAST? lol 

do i need to pull up who was the mavs leading scorer and rebounder in the playoffs the past four years?

Sam I am hit mad clutch shots and scored 40 two times last year.


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>mff4l</b>!
> 
> 
> so jordan didn't win six ships with A SUPPORTING CAST? lol
> ...


Did he win without one in his first 6 seasons? Thought so.


Go Vikes!


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

I am glad that people are starting to question KG. It's about TIME people. 

In the beginning of the year, if you post Dirk > KG, you'll see 8 out of 10 people chose KG because KG just won the MVP with all his beautiful STATS. 

The most obvious reason that people don't pick Dirk over KG is Nash. Nash was the one that controls the floor and Dirk was being set up as a shooter. I don't think Nash is negative to Dirk but Dirk is more than capable to carry the whole team himself. He did that on that sucky German team. He is the leader and he plays like one. 

Now Nash is gone. No more "Dirk is good because of Nash" kind of BS. Of all the Mavs players, Dirk is the MOST consistent players in the playoff. He is the reason why Mavs is not a 6-year 1st Round exit team. 

Say all you want about KG's teammates. Blame everybody BUT KG. The truth will reveal in the end. KG is not suitable to be a leader. The more I look at him, the more I think he is a great Supporting player like Pippen. There's nothing wrong with that because I don't think MJ would have won 6 rings without Pippen. Somebody are meant to be a leader and somebody are meant to be a helper. You can't have everything. And KG is trying to HAVE EVERYTHING. That's why Wolves is failing. You can say KG is too greedy or the Wolves' organization is hurting KG. 

Did people expect MJ to grab 15+ rebounds? No
Did people expect Duncan to have +6 assist? No


Dirk is valuable to the team (just like Duncan is) because Dirk gets his priority straight. Remember, Dirk, Duncan and KG are Power Forwards. Get your priority straight. Don't act like a PG when you don't need to. KG had Marbury and now he has Cassel. I don't know why he acts like he has to shoulder everything. It's unnecessary and it's kinda stupid. 

And this post is not about KG SUCKS. It's about who would bring more success to his team and I pick Dirk. 

KG can have all the stats he wants but he may never even reach WCF, as sad as it sounds. 

Jimmy


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jibikao</b>!
> 
> 
> KG can have all the stats he wants but he may never even reach WCF, as sad as it sounds.
> ...


I am not even reading the post just because you worte that. Know the player first before you talk about him. Man, you arent even legitimate.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBigTicketKG21</b>!
> 
> 
> I am not even reading the post just because you worte that. Know the player first before you talk about him. Man, you arent even legitimate.


He meant NBA finals, and you read it and there's not too much you can say to refute his statements. Your just using that as a cop out


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## Zach (May 11, 2003)

I would have said KG > Dirk atthe beginning of the year. (And I am a huge Mavs Fan) But Theo has a point. Dirk was killing it with his PG and KG was killing it with his PG. KG's is washed up and it is affecting his game. Dirk has a new PG and he is still killing it with better stats than last year. So I say:


Dirk > KG


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> 
> 
> He meant NBA finals, and you read it and there's not too much you can say to refute his statements. Your just using that as a cop out


He wrote WCF. He will never even reach WCF (western Conference Finals). If you dont understand english, then you might think he worte NBA Finals. I could say the same thing about Dirk.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBigTicketKG21</b>!
> 
> 
> He wrote WCF. He will never even reach WCF (western Conference Finals). If you dont understand english, then you might think he worte NBA Finals. I could say the same thing about Dirk.


It's not that hard to understand that maybe it was a typo, I doubt a poster like jibikao would make that big of a mistake

Dirk has a much better chance of making it this year, than KG does. Dirks team are 8-1 since we put in Terry, and we are averaging 11 points per game, and only giving up around 96

and Dirk's been hitting lately aswell, got his PPG upto 27 with Tez


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> 
> 
> He meant NBA finals, and you read it and there's not too much you can say to refute his statements. Your just using that as a cop out


No, I meant Western Conference Final.  

You can't reach NBA Final without passing WCF... and sadly, I don't think KG can even reach WCF unless Wolves does something quick. 

It's a sad truth... 

And I did watch KG's game.  

Jimmy


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mff4l</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> all this offseason all people said that dirk would suffer cause nash isn't there. even though the mavs are last in the league in dimes dirk is still top three in scoring. he's getting to the line (2nd in the league at that) and is doing it every night. There have been games where dirk has carried this team to wins. So don't GIMME THAT.


That's why they play the games, bucko. Nobody thought the Mavs would stay as much of an offensive machine as they were without Nash. They were wrong. People thought Spree and Cassell would continue to play well. They were wrong. There have been nights where KG has carried his team to victory to. But neither Dirk nor KG can do it totally by themselves. Jordan never did it by himself. Chamberlain never did. Duncan never did. The closest thing I can even think of is the year the 76ers made it to the finals, but even still he had a very solid supporting cast. This year KG has none.




> the mavs have the fourth best record in the west even with daniels not being healthy all year, finley missed 15 games, stack missed five, dampier is just now getting healthy, same for terry. This team is STILL NOT HEALTHY because daniels is hurt. Yet they are being kept afloat by dirk. At one point and time the mavs were starting 3 guys who had less than 6 years of nba experience combined. That was until the past 8 games and they have stilled outplayed the wolves.


The fact that they can be just as good as they are with all of these players show just how deep the Mavs are. They still are able to put a team of Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse, John Howard, Calvin Booth, and Erick Dampier, all of whom started on NBA teams last year, with Dirk out. 

Top to bottom, the Mavs are a far better team than the TWolves, so I don't know how team success is really factoring into who is better right now.



> Heck the wolves only managed to beat the mavs by a POINT WITHOUT DIRK AND FINLEY. that's pathetic.
> 
> Then dirk plays (finley didn't) and the mavs led all game. in the second game this year.


In the second game, KG put up 32 on 63% shooting, with 12 rebounds and 5 assists. Sczerbiak had a good game with 18. Griffin had 14 off the bench. That was it. The point guard spot shot a combined 6-23, and they didn't have their 3rd best player.

Keep in mind, when the Mavs are missing their third best player they have another cog to throw into the machine. When the TWolves miss their 3rd best player, who are they going to throw in. Ah, I see Mark Madsen is still in the league...



> You act like the mavs didn't have a shot at beating the spurs with dirk 3 years ago dude. Dirk missed the final 3 games. Bradley was hurt. Eshmeyer was hurt and raef was the tallest mav on the court at 6 10 battling drob down low while walt williams was guarding duncan.


Three years ago, sure. But for all of you people arguing about recent history putting Dirk ahead of KG, this was a mere 8 months ago.



> Both of these guys are great players but dirk is ten times the player kg is in the playoffs.


In 42 career playoff games, Garnett averages 22.3/13.4/5/2/1.

In 40 career playoff games, 25.6/11/2/1/1 for Dirk. 

In one of those years, Garnett had a team that was somewhat close to was Dirk had, and he made the WCF.



> Every year the media gives kg a pass for his off the court antics, on the court antics, and failure to STEP UP AND BE A LEADER.


His off court stuff is the stuff I dislike the most about him, so no argument there. But the year he finally gets a supporting cast worth a damn (early in his career with Marbury and Googs he was WAY too immature), he gets to the WCF. 

Now his supporting cast sucks again, and his team hovers in somewhat mediocrity.

Dirk plays on one of the best *TEAMS* in the league, and does well in the playoffs when there's other threats on the court. Just like KG.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

All offseason, people said Dirk would struggle without Nash. When in fact, Nash and Finley were the ones feeding off him.

Look at the records this year, KG's team may not even make the playoffs. They are a game infront of the Clippers! (No offence Clippers fan (if there are any), I like your team)


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

Your team's success is definitely correlated to how good you are. 

And I am sure most people here didn't say KG is not good. In fact, he is definitely one of the best. 

But can he lead his team to WCF/Final, we'll shall see this year. 


And the thing about Mavs having a better team. Well, this is what I hate about this back-and-forth argument. Most people didn't even think Mavs is "elite" anymore without Nash. Very few people compliment on how good a "team" Mavs is. The only thing I heard is Dirk is the leader now. Terry and Dampier were trashed so badly on mavs board and people want to ship Stackhouse to another team because he just can't quite shooting. And all of sudden the argument becomes Dirk's team has better success because Dirk has a BETTER "team"??? Why can't you just give credits to Dirk? PLEASE... I am begging you. 

Anybody who watches the game knows Wolves is a deeper team. They "had" two great veterans on the team who played at all-star level. Exactly why they've been failing is not the topic of this thread and I don't intend to go into that. 

Jimmy


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jibikao</b>!
> 
> 
> No, I meant Western Conference Final.
> ...


Funny thing is he proved you wrong himself. Dont talk for some1 else unless you are sure. Point proven.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBigTicketKG21</b>!
> 
> 
> Funny thing is he proved you wrong himself. Dont talk for some1 else unless you are sure. Point proven.


:greatjob:


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

:yes:


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jibikao</b>!
> But can he lead his team to WCF/Final, we'll shall see this year.


Dude, if you keep saying that, your opinions on this subject hold very little water.



> Anybody who watches the game knows Wolves is a deeper team. They "had" two great veterans on the team who played at all-star level. Exactly why they've been failing is not the topic of this thread and I don't intend to go into that.
> 
> Jimmy


Anyone who watches the game and is slightly retarded may think the Wolves are deeper, yes. 

And if we're going to discuss team success, it is absolutely FOOLISH of you to turn a blind eye as to why the TWolves have been failing. If you're going to trash KG for not having a good team record right now, you have to look at the whole team, not just KG. 

They currently play 3 disgruntled players for about 80 minutes a night. Cassell and Spreewell no longer play defense, Szczerbiak never could play defense. Eddie Griffin can block shots but doesn't play great defense man-to-man. Olowakandi, well, we all know his story. Hoiberg is old and slow, Madsen is pure hustle, Trenton Hassell is a good defender but you're playing 4 on 5 when you have the ball. 

They are a team that can't fast break, and can barely play defense. This is like saying that Ray Allen is better than Kobe Bryant because the Sonics are better than the Lakers.


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## mff4l (Dec 31, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Matt85163</b>!
> 
> 
> That's why they play the games, bucko. Nobody thought the Mavs would stay as much of an offensive machine as they were without Nash. They were wrong. People thought Spree and Cassell would continue to play well. They were wrong. There have been nights where KG has carried his team to victory to. But neither Dirk nor KG can do it totally by themselves. Jordan never did it by himself. Chamberlain never did. Duncan never did. The closest thing I can even think of is the year the 76ers made it to the finals, but even still he had a very solid supporting cast. This year KG has none.
> ...


lol let's not try that man. The mavs have won games without finley out there. he's missed 15 games. The mavs won games with daniels, terry, stack, and dirk all playing with injuries. 

This is DIRK'S TEAM POINT BLANK

the mavs have lost 10 games

in eight of those losses dirk failed to score at least his season average of 26 points. Not surprisingly the mavs lost those games.

Dirk has scored at least 30 in 12 of the mavs 32 games. 
he's scored 40 in at least 2 games
he's scored 50 in at least 1 game

when dirk doesn't score the mavs lose. But dirk will always score. because he's not just a "jumpshooting player" anymore

he's second in the league in freethrow attempts. 

people predicted the wolves to finish first and the mavs to miss the playoffs. now that it's not the case "kg's supporting cast sux"


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

Opinions are always welcome. 

I'll admit that I didn't know KG made it to WCF. Which year? Was it before Dirk becomes a Mavs or during Dirk's rookie seasons? 


All I know is Wolves has been failing in playoffs ever since I started really watcing NBA. 


You can trash my opinion but the result will tell the truth. Dirk will just shine more and more without Nash and with more responsibility assigned to him. Will KG bring his team to another elite stats? 


And yes, Wolves does "seem" to have a deeper team than Mavs. Even the coach said they are the most under-achieving team right now with all the talents they have.

And I like I said, I am glad more and more people have raised their opinions about KG. 

PS: Theo! thanks man. I didn't know if KG made it to the WCF or not. I made that as a sacrastic statement. You can't blame me because Wolves has been 1st round exit for so many years... 

Jimmy


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

DIRK is BETTER than KG...

KG is a underachieving All-NBA...
Dirk is the strenght thak keeps Dallas overachieving...


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jibikao</b>!


He made it last year man


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## mff4l (Dec 31, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jibikao</b>!
> Opinions are always welcome.
> 
> I'll admit that I didn't know KG made it to WCF. Which year? Was it before Dirk becomes a Mavs or during Dirk's rookie seasons?
> ...


yea the wolves made it to the wcf last year man. was you sleep or something all of last year?


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## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

Dirk can't pass the ball and he can't defend. That right there doesn't even put them on the same court.
KG can shoot, he can rebound, he can pass, he can do everything.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Lets play some Fact or Fiction

"Dirk doesn't make his teammates better, Dirk doesnt play defense, Dirk was only good because of Nash, Dirk can't rebound"

Many things that have been said about Dirk, I just pointed out a few of them

1) Dirk doesn't make his team mates better:
Fiction: As shown by this year, Jason Terry is having a great year. His shooting percentage is up, and is leading the Mavs well with his passes. Pretty good for someone who ISN'T a real PG. People were saying that the Mavs were going to suck this year without Nash, yet we are actually doing *BETTER* 

2) Dirk doesnt play defense
Fiction: Yes he does play defense, it's not All-NBA defense but it's not Zach Randolph defense either. He's an above average defender, and anyone who says other is just going by what everyone else is saying. Although, it is a fact that Dirk was a horrible defender when he came into the league. 6 YEARS AGO! He's changed, and the impressions since then are everlasting. Nash and Walker/Jamison were the flaws in Dallas' defense last year. Check out a game this year, Dampier allows Dirk to get out of the post and defend, which is were he;'s better

3) Dirk was only good because of Nash
Fiction: Thats fairly obvious, as he's increased on his best ever (scoring-wise) season. Now with Tez, he has 27 ppg shooting at near 50%. He's also shown that he can create for himself, and he doesn't need a top notch PG to get him the ball. Dirk is 3rd in the league in scoring, on the worst passing team in the league

4) Dirk can't rebound
Fiction: Yes he can rebound. He is averaging 10 rebounds, only 11 people in the whole entire NBA are doing that. He's also second in the league in defensive rebounding, which stops the other team from second chance points


*Yawn*, this is getting old people. When will you start giving Dirk the credit he deserves. First he'll miss the playoffs without Nash and Minny are predicted champs. Now he's currently in the playoffs above Minnys team, and the Mavs are a better team?


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

As much as I love Nowitzki and he's really been tearing it up this year, he is no Kevin Garnett. 

Let's clear a few things out of the way first. Nowitzki is the better scorer. He's scoring 26.9 PPG so far on a 1.16 PPFGA. Garnett is at 23.8 PPG with a 1.11 PPFGA. Pretty significant difference. But other than that, everyone _is_ right. Garnett does everything else better. 

Even though Nowitzki is the better scorer, Garnett is just as good of an offensive player as Nowitzki. Because Nowitzki plays so much on the perimeter and possesses average rebounding skills, he's almost a non-factor on the offensive boards. Whereas Dirk grabs a platry 3.7% of his teams offensive boards, Garnett grabs 10.4%. 

Secondly, KG draws more defensive attention than Dirk, which makes sense. What's really the point of doubling a 7 foot jump shooter? He's still going to get off his shot relatively easy no matter what. Because of that, Garnett is much better at creating open looks for his teammates, and thus more assists. 6.2 APG for Garnett to 2.8 APG for Nowitzki. In addition, as to this point, there hasn't been a real difference in the turnover numbers. Nowitzki turns the ball over on 11.1% of his possessions, while Garnett turns the ball over on 13.8% of his possessions. 

Of course, in the areas of rebounding and defense, there really is no argument to be made. Garnett is better in both. Other than the offensive rebounding numbers, which I mentioned earlier, KG grabs 31.5% of defensive rebounds compared to Nowitzki's 23.9%. In defense, Garnett is still better although Nowitzki has made many improvements. The difference isn't as large as people may think and personally, I think Garnett has taken a slight step back from last year in terms of defensive focus and effectiveness. I think a large part of it may be due to the totally matador defense the rest of his team plays, but some of the defensive blame has to fall on his feet.


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

West Conference Final.. wasn't it Lakers and Spurs?  

Ok, I am confused. 

Jimmy


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jibikao</b>!
> West Conference Final.. wasn't it Lakers and Spurs?
> 
> Ok, I am confused.
> ...


Nope. Check this out

http://www.nba.com/playoffs2004/bracket.html


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## mavsman (Jun 11, 2003)

Here is my take on this argument.

Who Cares?

Garnett is a great player and Nowitzki is a great player. But last time I checked the NBA was a 5 on 5 game. Why we constantly have to have these threads that drone on and on about which player is better than another, I have no idea.

Garnett overall gets better stats than Dirk. Good for him.

The only thing I care about is how good the Maverick team is and how far they will make it in the playoffs. Fortunately for Mav fans we have one of the best playoff performers in the entire NBA. Dirk always brings his A game when the playoffs come around and because of that I love Dirk as player.


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mff4l</b>!
> 
> people predicted the wolves to finish first and the mavs to miss the playoffs. now that it's not the case "kg's supporting cast sux"


What are you not understanding?

KG's supporting cast is SEVERELY underacheiving. It doesn't matter how much talent you have, it matters what you're doing with it.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> As much as I love Nowitzki and he's really been tearing it up this year, he is no Kevin Garnett.
> 
> Let's clear a few things out of the way first. Nowitzki is the better scorer. He's scoring 26.9 PPG so far on a 1.16 PPFGA. Garnett is at 23.8 PPG with a 1.11 PPFGA. Pretty significant difference. But other than that, everyone _is_ right. Garnett does everything else better.
> ...


Another good post supported by stats by Yyzlin. Thanks for saving us the trouble. 



> Originally posted by <b>mff4l</b>!
> 
> how many times has dirk been outta round 1 compared to kg again?


How many more championships does Derek Fisher have than Dirk? 

Stupid questions deserve stupid answers.



> people predicted the wolves to finish first and the mavs to miss the playoffs. now that it's not the case "kg's supporting cast sux"


That's because they HAVE sucked this year. Do you even watch Twolves games? Cassell can't guard anyone and isn't having nearly as good a year as last season (look up his stats if you like). Same with Spreewell. Flip has had to depend on Wally and Hudson because their two old man cancers are mailing it in to get contract extensions.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was Derek Fisher the number 1 guy on those teams? No

Are Dirk and Kevin the number 1 guys on their teams? Undisputedly

OT: Add me to the club


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> 
> 
> Was Derek Fisher the number 1 guy on those teams? No
> ...


The point has been made though; supporting casts matter.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by EHL!
> 
> 
> The point has been made though; supporting casts matter.


Yet, whenever KG's team loses it's due to his supporting cast and it's not his fault. Dirk's supporting cast changes year in and year out and this year he has a _major lineup shakeup this year_ and his team hasn't missed a beat. KG has had the same team and they still struggle? Really, it's never KG's fault ther's always a cop out. He's like the total opposite of Kobe, no-one blames KG really


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

http://www.nba.com/statistics/2004/...rs/LeagueLeadersEFFQuery.html?topic=0&stat=27

KG edges out Dirk according to this but they are the 2 best players in the league going by this also...


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

I think they need to revise the efficency, doesn't involve Wins/Losses.


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> Yet, whenever KG's team loses it's due to his supporting cast and it's not his fault. Dirk's supporting cast changes year in and year out and this year he has a _major lineup shakeup this year_ and his team hasn't missed a beat. KG has had the same team and they still struggle? Really, it's never KG's fault ther's always a cop out. He's like the total opposite of Kobe, no-one blames KG really


I still don't understand how that makes Dirk better than KG. I mean, wow, what is the guy supposed to do? Play defense for them? Make wide open shots for them? He's just one person. 

And do you really think knowleagable basketball fans are blaming Bryant for the modest performance of the Lakers? The only people I see doing that are haters.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by Yyzlin!
> 
> I still don't understand how that makes Dirk better than KG. I mean, wow, what is the guy supposed to do? Play defense for them? Make wide open shots for them? He's just one person.


Dirk steps it up in crunch time in the playoffs. KG doesn't. before KG's 47 pointer this year? wally had the franchise high with 44 points and he's been there half as long as kg has. Kg will never carry a team anywhere. The bullseye was on his team after last years success and he obviously can't handle the pressure

Walker was a cancer on the Mavs last year yet they still won 52 games. Stackhouse was considered to be an offseason cancer yet he's not taking shots away from dirk. Whoever plays with Dirk seems to be happy no matter what their role is and he doesn't sucker punch his teammates in the face or make war comments either



> Originally posted by Yyzlin!
> 
> And do you really think knowleagable basketball fans are blaming Bryant for the modest performance of the Lakers? The only people I see doing that are haters.


What I mean is, people will try to find something wrong when Kobe does something good (Check out that thread on ebb) and people will try to find goodness in KG's wrongdoing..make sense?


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> Dirk steps it up in crunch time in the playoffs. KG doesn't. before KG's 47 pointer this year? wally had the franchise high with 44 points and he's been there half as long as kg has. Kg will never carry a team anywhere. The bullseye was on his team after last years success and he obviously can't handle the pressure.


Over the last three postseasons, Garnett has averaged 24.9 PPG on .464 FG%, 15.3 RPG, and 5.1 APG. That doesn't seem too shabby to me. I guess you can say that Garnett doesn't simply explode and go off very much, but he rarely falters either. He's about as consistent as you can get. You can pretty much book 20 PPG, 15 RPG, and 5 APG for him every day. 

Also, I hope you are aware that you seriously contradicted yourself. You said he obviously can't handle the pressure after last years success. So how exactly did they have success last year if their best player folded under the pressure? I don't know. Do you?



> Walker was a cancer on the Mavs last year yet they still won 52 games. Stackhouse was considered to be an offseason cancer yet he's not taking shots away from dirk. Whoever plays with Dirk seems to be happy no matter what their role is and he doesn't sucker punch his teammates in the face or make war comments either


Oh come on, Walker may be a cancer, but when he's your 5th option on your team, that's a damn good cancer to have. Oh, and yeah. 
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1845597

And I don't find Stackhouse to be a cancer. He was a bit of a ball hog early in his career, but he has since learned to move the ball around. He's just not that great of a player, which some people don't realize. It's OK for the Mavericks though, since they have Daniels, Finley, Howard, and Terry who can all play the off guard position, and better too. 




> What I mean is, people will try to find something wrong when Kobe does something good (Check out that thread on ebb) and people will try to find goodness in KG's wrongdoing..make sense?


OK. So you agree with me that KG shouldn't be blamed for the TWolves slow start?


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He doesn't deserve all the blame, but as a star player if your team isn't doing that well you need some blmae aswell


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Come playoff time, I want Dirk.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

The only stat in which KG goes up in the playoffs, is turnovers. Everything else goes down: Points, Rebounds, Assists, FG%

Playoffs make or break star players and KG hasn't quite made himself "fantastic" in the playoffs. That said, it's not like KG _stinks_ in the playoffs.

If your the supposed best player in the league, you need to:
- Step up in the playoffs
- Lead your team to a dazzling record

KG doesn't do either, Tim Duncan does.

Put TD on the Wolves, he also gets monster stats but...he leads his team to a better record


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

To be brutally frank I think the T-wolves would be worse with Dirk.


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> The only stat in which KG goes up in the playoffs, is turnovers. Everything else goes down: Points, Rebounds, Assists, FG%


Where the hell are you getting that?



> If your the supposed best player in the league, you need to:
> - Step up in the playoffs
> - Lead your team to a dazzling record


KG did both last year. He hasn't led his team to a dazzling record, but the year isn't over. And the playoffs aren't here yet. Boy! I can't wait!


> KG doesn't do either, Tim Duncan does.


Cause Duncan really stepped it up against the Lakers last year? Gotcha.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Theo, you really haven't made any legitimate arguments other than Dirk is the better scorer and he steps it up in the playoffs. Everytime someone points out how much better Garnett is in every other facet of the game (lightyears ahead in passing, rebounding and defense) you respond by repeating your same two arguments. Do you agree then that Garnett is much better than Dirk at every aspect of basketball minus scoring?


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> 
> Where the hell are you getting that?
> *NBA.com, if you check KG's stats from when he has turned into a complete player and compare them to his playoff stats. He goes down
> ...


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> Theo, you really haven't made any legitimate arguments other than Dirk is the better scorer and he steps it up in the playoffs. Everytime someone points out how much better Garnett is in every other facet of the game (lightyears ahead in passing, rebounding and defense) you respond by repeating your same two arguments. Do you agree then that Garnett is much better than Dirk at every aspect of basketball minus scoring?


KG is just above Dirks level, AS A PLAYER. For me, Dirk comes ahead in the playoffs and leadership ability. I don't see why I shouldn't be saying this if it's true.

A great player is measured by his perfomance in the playoffs, why should we have this argument saying "except the playoffs" when thats the ultimatee goal in the end.

KG "chokes" in the playoffs, but when he finally makes it out of the first round he's hailed as the number one guy. TD got his team 2 championships and Dirk has got him team out numerous times

Even legends such as Charles Barkley and Magic Johnson have critised (sp?) KG for his inability to get his team out of the first round. 

Check this *article out *



> Teams have. Wilt Chamberlain was traded. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was traded. Charles Barkley was traded. The common thread running through all the deals was that the team that traded them usually didn't recover for years. And the team that got them usually went on to a championship, or at least the NBA Finals.
> 
> But what made those deals successful for the teams getting the stars was that they had stars. That's the problem -- if you can call it one -- with Garnett. He's not Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson or Larry Bird. Not that they did it all themselves, but Garnett is not a finisher. He's more like Grant Hill, who is trying to regain his luster with the Orlando Magic. And he has a chance to now that he's with a player, Tracy McGrady, who can finish the game for him.
> 
> ...


Look at Karl Malone, he's prolonged retiring so he can get a ring. He knows that the scoring championship is nothing without a ring. All of his acclompishments will put him in the HoF, but you can tell he'd prefer a ring

In the end, it's: Who would you want in your team going into the playoffs? The easy answer is Dirk


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> NBA.com, if you check KG's stats from when he has turned into a complete player and compare them to his playoff stats. He goes down


The last three years, his regular season averages are 21 PPG, 23 PPG, and 24 PPG. In the postseason they rise to 24, 27, and 24 PPG. His rebounding goes from 12,13,14 RPG to 18,16, 15 RPG. So yeah, I'm not sure what you are talking about. 



> It's funny, you take the one series where Duncan failed to win everything but don't speak about the 8 or so years when KG only makes it out of the first round once. TD has two titles with 0 all-stars. KG has one WCF appearance with Sam Cassell (AS), Wally (was a AS), Latrell (near-AS), Googs (near-AS).


Wow. Let's see. Garnett had Googs for the first three years of his career. That last year, Garnett was all of 21 years old. Man, shame on Garnett that he couldn't lead his team further into the playoffs as a 21 year old. Really. And guess what, last year was the first year he had Cassell, Wally, and Latrell. And guess what? He took them to the WCF, where without Cassell, they lost to the Lakers in 6 games. It's kind of tough to advance in the playoffs when your best teammate was Wally Szczerbiak for so many years.


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> 
> 
> A great player is measured by his perfomance in the playoffs, why should we have this argument saying "except the playoffs" when thats the ultimatee goal in the end.
> ...


Well, hey there big guy, the ultimate goal isn't performing well in the playoffs, it's winning a championship. Which Dirk hasn't done yet either. 

But anyways, if you're so focused on how well Dirk is doing THIS YEAR, and how great the team is THIS YEAR with Dirk at the helm, blah blah, and you're so obsessed with recent performances for Dirk, why are you completely ignoring the MOST RECENT playoffs, where KG lead his team to the WCF?


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> 
> 
> Yet, whenever KG's team loses it's due to his supporting cast and it's not his fault. Dirk's supporting cast changes year in and year out and this year he has a _major lineup shakeup this year_ and his team hasn't missed a beat. KG has had the same team and they still struggle? Really, it's never KG's fault ther's always a cop out. He's like the total opposite of Kobe, no-one blames KG really


Fact of the matter is that since KG got a good supporting cast (last season), they won 57 games in the West and made the WCF. They're not doing well this year because the supporting cast is playing like crap. Look up their stats (PER in particular), Cassell and Spree are stinking it up. Dirk's team is _good_, they have a nice combination of everything; youth, athleticism, shooters, scorers, and even a little defense. 

And all that said, why isn't Dirk being blamed for last year's first round flameout? Who's fault is that?


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> Check this *article out *


That article was written all of two years ago. Things change. Garnett has improved greatly over those two years, and he has taken a much more aggressive approach to the game. 



> In the end, it's: Who would you want in your team going into the playoffs? The easy answer is Dirk


Just a hunch, but I'm pretty sure that's not how they build teams. I think most of them realize there's this whole like regular season thing. 

PS: To answer your question, depends. If I have another scorer on the team, KG. If I don't, Dirk.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> And all that said, why isn't Dirk being blamed for last year's first round flameout? Who's fault is that?


It is a small part Dirk's fault, but it was mainly his teammates. Dirk consistenly put up amazing playoff numbers, but Fin and the rest of the supporting cast stunk it up

We shot 38% not including Dirk in that series


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> 
> 
> It is a small part Dirk's fault, but it was mainly his teammates. Dirk consistenly put up amazing playoff numbers, but Fin and the rest of the supporting cast stunk it up
> ...


KG's supporting cast did just as poorly in year's past, and they were always far worse than the supporting cast Dirk had last postseason when he was bumped in the first round. 

See, there's really nothing to the team argument, it's all about supporting cast.


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## FlyingTiger (Aug 4, 2002)

2003 dallas could of easily won the nba championship. dirk got hurt vs the spurs in the wcf. ask portland about dirk:

game 1
46 pts 10 boards

game 2 
25/9 

game 3
42/10 

game 4
26/11

game 5
35/11

game 6
4/0 blow out game rested for game 7

game 7
31/11

dirk playoff stats
25.6 pts .455 fg .889 ft .420 3ptfg 11.0 boards

dont get me wrong KG is great, but dirk is better. =)


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## 7M3 (Aug 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> Even legends such as Charles Barkley and Magic Johnson have critised (sp?) KG for his inate ability to get his team out of the first round.


They've criticized him for his inborn ability to get his team out of the first round?


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>7M3</b>!
> 
> 
> They've criticized him for his inborn ability to get his team out of the first round?


Possessed as an essential characteristic; inherent

Did I use the word wrong? Tips please


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## 7M3 (Aug 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> 
> 
> Possessed as an essential characteristic; inherent
> ...


Well, it would seem to contradict your argument. If he possesses an inherent ability to get his team out of the first round, why would he be criticized for it? It would mean he is naturally talented at getting his team out of the first round.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>7M3</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, it would seem to contradict your argument. If he possesses an inherent ability to get his team out of the first round, why would he be criticized for it? It would mean he is naturally talented at getting his team out of the first round.


Ok, I used it wrong then. Thanks for pointing that out


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## mff4l (Dec 31, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> And all that said, why isn't Dirk being blamed for last year's first round flameout? Who's fault is that?


dirk has lost in round 1 once. every team loses in round 1 eventually but when you do it eight years in a row? i'm sorry it's not all the supporting cast. It has something to do with the player the supporting cast is built around. Why is duncan able to lead his team to ships with far less talent than kg?

you don't even get to the playoffs with just ONE GUY. so why is all the credit given to kg when they win but he's not the one to take the blame when his team loses?

nash and finley haven't played that great in the postseason. a few years finley has even been hurt and dirk has been carrying this team for years. 

last year finley was playing hurt in the kings series. same with jamison. josh howard was playing hurt too. and then nash proves how unclutch he is once again. 

But this wolves team was predicted to compete for a top seed. They are 7th in the west. I don't buy it.


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

KG heavily relies on athleticism for his game so while he flames out a player lets say like duncan who uses very little athleticism will be a 20/10 player till hes 60 while kg will be injury prone late career ..


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mff4l</b>!
> Why is duncan able to lead his team to ships with far less talent than kg?


WHAT?!?!?

Are you seriously ****ting me? The Spurs have had some very VERY good roleplayers on their championship teams, and everyone on those teams knows their roles thanks to great coaching and great general managing. I don't know where you pulled this argument out of (your *** seems like a logical location), but this is COMPLETE, TOTAL, UTTER BULLCRAP!



> But this wolves team was predicted to compete for a top seed. They are 7th in the west. I don't buy it.


What part of this don't you understand?

Kevin Garnett's supporting cast is not playing as well as they were expected.

Let's break down that sentence, shall we?

Kevin Garnett: The man you really don't like for some reason.

's supporting cast: The players who play around a superstar to a certain role to acheive victory.

is not playing as well: Meaning they are not performing at a high level.

as they were expected: The level they were expected to be playing at is not being reached.

THE PLAYERS AROUND GARNETT ARE SUCKING!
¡LOS JUGADORES ALREDEDOR DE GARNETT CHUPAN! 
ИГРОКИ ВОКРУГ GARNETT СОСУТ!
I GIOCATORI INTORNO GARNETT SUCCHIANO! 

If you would like another language, I'll be happy to give it to you.


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> Theo, you really haven't made any legitimate arguments other than Dirk is the better scorer and he steps it up in the playoffs. Everytime someone points out how much better Garnett is in every other facet of the game (lightyears ahead in passing, rebounding and defense) you respond by repeating your same two arguments. Do you agree then that Garnett is much better than Dirk at every aspect of basketball minus scoring?


Exactly


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

*More pics of DIRK for guys that still think that KG is the man....*


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## thegreatnero (Jan 8, 2005)

It's true that KG is a better one on one player. But it's also true that some type of players games' don't fit well with a 5 man team. Maybe KG is this type? After all he's had a ton of different teamates who were all brought in to fill roles around him and blend with his game, and yet only one of those combinations appeared to work for only one year. On the other hand players like Shaq, Duncan, and Dirk have games which seem to blend with any tom, dick, and harry you throw out there. Sure maybe KG has just been incredibly unlucky and is always forced to play with scrubs, who knows.


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

Why do all analysts say that TD, KG, and Shaq are at the top level in the NBA, its because they are. The only legitimate argument Dirk fans can say are he is a playoff performer. Both players step up in the playoffs so that argument is declined. Both players got to the WCF with a supporting cast. 

If u had a fantasy draft for one season, it is most likely Garnett, Duncan, and Shaq would be the top 3.

It is very easy to see the difference between an honest Dirk fan, and a Dirk fan that hates on KGbecause he knows Garnett is that much better.


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thegreatnero</b>!
> It's true that KG is a better one on one player. But it's also true that some type of players games' don't fit well with a 5 man team. Maybe KG is this type? After all he's had a ton of different teamates who were all brought in to fill roles around him and blend with his game, and yet only one of those combinations appeared to work for only one year. On the other hand players like Shaq, Duncan, and Dirk have games which seem to blend with any tom, dick, and harry you throw out there. Sure maybe KG has just been incredibly unlucky and is always forced to play with scrubs, who knows.


If you get 50 wins and dont think the players fit the star, then that is still pretty damn good. He also makes them better too.


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## mff4l (Dec 31, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBigTicketKG21</b>!
> Why do all analysts say that TD, KG, and Shaq are at the top level in the NBA, its because they are. The only legitimate argument Dirk fans can say are he is a playoff performer. Both players step up in the playoffs so that argument is declined. Both players got to the WCF with a supporting cast.
> 
> If u had a fantasy draft for one season, it is most likely Garnett, Duncan, and Shaq would be the top 3.
> ...


actually in fantasy leagues dirk prolly has more value than anyone else excluding amare. here's why. in most games he's rated as a pf/c same with amare. You can plug dirk at center and get a solid pf and not have to get shaq or another top center with the first pick.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBigTicketKG21</b>!
> It is very easy to see the difference between an honest Dirk fan, and a Dirk fan that hates on KGbecause he knows Garnett is that much better.


:laugh:

I just made this thread to get people riled up, I'd say I did fairly well aswell 

:laugh:


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> ...


:laugh: 

:greatjob:


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>mff4l</b>!
> 
> 
> actually in fantasy leagues dirk prolly has more value than anyone else excluding amare. here's why. in most games he's rated as a pf/c same with amare. You can plug dirk at center and get a solid pf and not have to get shaq or another top center with the first pick.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH...anyone on this board could tell you that KG is the best fantasy player their is. I think even Theo could, but he probably wouldnt say it cuz he hates on KG too much. Look at effeiciecy. 1st (KG) 34.6 compared to 2nd (Props) 28.5 (Dirk). Thats a big difference between 1st and 2nd and no one even expected Dirk to do this good, but for KG it was expected.


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## mff4l (Dec 31, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Matt85163</b>!
> 
> 
> WHAT?!?!?
> ...


drob had a moving disc in his back. parker put up 16 points (second leading scorer) then jax and rose put up 12 and 10 a game respectively. last year spree put up 17 a game and was the wolves 3rd leading scorer. kg was first followed by sam I am who put up 20 a game. 

matter of fact sam and spree averaged the same amount of points as malik rose, drob and parker combined. 

duncan has never had another player named as an allstar during his ship winning years. kg has played with 2. he's even played with an nba finals mvp. and a ROY and googs in his prime. regardless of all of that kg has sniffed round 2 once in his career.


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## thegreatnero (Jan 8, 2005)

> If you get 50 wins and dont think the players fit the star, then that is still pretty damn good. He also makes them better too.


The measure of success is the playoffs, not the regular season. I always thought KG had tremendous potential and would lead a group to the championship, but eventually you have to start reconcilling your theories with reality. I'm starting to seriously doubt whether his game is compatible with team play. At least I know Dirk's is, even though it's not as spectacular. I can easily see the current Mavs becoming a better team and winning a championship next year. Not the same for the wolves, and I don't see what type of player they will get that will make them a contender, because they've already had every type you can imagine.

As for that fantasy comment, who the **** cares, we might as well talk video games.


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Theo!</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> ...


:laugh: I actually thought u thought Dirk was better than KG. :laugh: Good One


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## mff4l (Dec 31, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBigTicketKG21</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH...anyone on this board could tell you that KG is the best fantasy player their is. I think even Theo could, but he probably wouldnt say it cuz he hates on KG too much. Look at effeiciecy. 1st (KG) 34.6 compared to 2nd (Props) 28.5 (Dirk). Thats a big difference between 1st and 2nd and no one even expected Dirk to do this good, but for KG it was expected.


you're not understanding value. the flexibility of being able to put a guy like dirk at sf, pf or center is huge. And right now marion is ranked 1st in damn near every fantasy league you can play in. Does that mean hes the best player in the league? LOL


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBigTicketKG21</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh: I actually thought u thought Dirk was better than KG. :laugh: Good One


Interchangeable


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thegreatnero</b>!
> 
> 
> The measure of success is the playoffs, not the regular season. I always thought KG had tremendous potential and would lead a group to the championship, but eventually you have to start reconcilling your theories with reality. I'm starting to seriously doubt whether his game is compatible with team play. At least I know Dirk's is, even though it's not as spectacular. I can easily see the current Mavs becoming a better team and winning a championship next year. Not the same for the wolves, and I don't see what type of player they will get that will make them a contender, because they've already had every type you can imagine.
> ...


I was replying to his post. Read his post next time.


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>mff4l</b>!
> 
> 
> you're not understanding value. the flexibility of being able to put a guy like dirk at sf, pf or center is huge. And right now marion is ranked 1st in damn near every fantasy league you can play in. Does that mean hes the best player in the league? LOL


The funny thing is that Dirk isnt even listed as C-PF. Even Ask one of your Dirk lovers. I play Yahoo! Fantasy. Garnett is known for being able to play out of position. I'm out. 

Still laughing :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## mff4l (Dec 31, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBigTicketKG21</b>!
> 
> 
> The funny thing is that Dirk isnt even listed as C-PF. Even Ask one of your Dirk lovers. I play Yahoo! Fantasy. Garnett is known for being able to play out of position.


really? now i know you're lying. I'm in 2 yahoo fantasy leagues and in one i have amare at center and in another i have dirk at center. amare plays pf/c in yahoo and dirk plays sf/pf/c in yahoo.


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mff4l</b>!
> 
> 
> drob had a moving disc in his back. parker put up 16 points (second leading scorer) then jax and rose put up 12 and 10 a game respectively. last year spree put up 17 a game and was the wolves 3rd leading scorer. kg was first followed by sam I am who put up 20 a game.
> ...


I really don't understnad what you're trying to prove here?

You keep taking stats and whatnot from the YEAR HE MADE IT TO THE WCF!

You know, when the number two scorer on the team had to get hurt before the Lakers (with three HoF'ers on the court) beat them. 

So he had Googs in his prime, and when Googs was there Garnett was still a teenager-young 20's. He wasn't the leader yet. 

Chauncy Billups straight wasn't that good when he played with KG.

Not only that, but for the Spurs scoring was never the issue, because they were a defensive-minded team who could grind out 81-75 games with no problems.

I give up on you, you're simply a lost cause.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBigTicketKG21</b>!
> Why do all analysts say that TD, KG, and Shaq are at the top level in the NBA, its because they are.


I actually really agreed with those analysts also.. except the more i think about it... Its really only Duncan and O'Neal that should be on that level.

Stat wise Garnett has been magnificent but so were those other 2 elite players. Charles Barkley's reasoning for picking TD, Shaq and KG the only 3 legit players to make their *team mates better*, but is that entirely true.

Last season Wolves had there best season since KG entered the league coincidently, thats when Sam and Latrell joined the club. KG had slightly improved numbers from 2003, but i believe Sam Cassell had his best season last season also, well on a winning team atleast. He even made all-star.

Sam and spree having contract problems and injury woes also... coincidently Wolves.... are very inconsistent and struggling to string wins. KG has improved his stats also this season. 

What im getting at is that Tim and Shaq has been consistent from the very beginning. Tim has rings and has led Spurs to have the best record in ALL-Sports the last 5 years.... Shaq has 3 rings also and is currently leading an average team like Miami to the best record in the east by a huge margin... although in the east (lesser competition).. they are legit contenders.

This leaves KG, out of the 3 supposed elite players, he is the one person, who outside of personal stats, does NOT have the same achievement as the other 2... you can argue teammates, lack of superstar team mates.. but KG hasnt been totally helpless. Last season was his best chance to join the winners circle and by the looks of things he will further wait to join the winner's circle.

whats this gotta do with Dirk?...

Nothing, except maybe Dirk might join winner's circle sooner than KG.. Dirk has come close and been very consistent the last 3-4 seasons and is having an MVP run this season. The one thing Dirk has in common with Tim and Shaq is.. that they dont compare to KG in terms of doing *everything* night in and night out.

Thats the problem with KG imo... he should stop being the *do everything* guy and just be a straight-out dominant.


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## mff4l (Dec 31, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Matt85163</b>!
> 
> 
> I really don't understnad what you're trying to prove here?
> ...


billups averaged 22 points 6 dimes and 5 boards in the playoffs for the wolves

wally averaged 20 points and 7 boards that same y ear. 

kg has never been a leader. sam I am was the wolves leader last year dropping 30 and 40 point games consistently. You can overlook it and blame the "supporting cast" if you want but shaq, dirk, and duncan have changed core guys from time to time (dirk's changes damn near every year) and they still win. *shrugs*


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

IMO the only thing dirk does better is the 3pt shot. KG does everything else better. everybody say dirk is an offensive machine but so is KG. KG can score too you know.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I didn't plow through this thread a whole lot, but Theo brought up some great points--saying what some of us were too scared to say.

I think he's right, Dirk is better. It does come down to winning, and Dirk is a winner, KG is kind of a loser. I think Dirk is a better teammate, and his game in general just promotes a better overall team attitude. I think if they switched places, Minny would be a little better off, just because I think you could play Hassell, Cassell, Wally, Dirk, and Kandiman, and be good to go. I think Dirk would make that unit really go, without the problems they are having this year. You wouldn't need Spreewell, because Dirk has the attitude of "I'm the man" at this point in his career, he's not going to fall into the background, he'll more likely push Spree out of the picture.

I really think Minny's problems right now are with KG's leadership skills, and Spreewell. They need to trade Spreewell, and KG needs to get his troops in order.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

If you are talking about " help the team to win" then Dirk is a lot better.

If you are talking about stats, then KG is ..............


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballscientist</b>!
> If you are talking about " help the team to win" then Dirk is a lot better.
> 
> If you are talking about stats, then KG is ..............


This sums it all up. 

KG has better stats but that doesn't mean he's the better player. 

When MJ played Malone was I think 2 years MVP of the year but that didn't mean that he was the best player in the league IMO.


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaUnbreakableKinG</b>!
> 
> 
> This sums it all up.
> ...


Who is saying KG is better solely because of stats? Everyone is pretty much saying the same thing: Dirk is an offensive powerhouse, but KG is still really good on offense, and far more of a power on defense.


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## Baron Davis (Apr 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>1 Penny</b>!
> 
> 
> I actually really agreed with those analysts also.. except the more i think about it... Its really only Duncan and O'Neal that should be on that level.
> ...


Nice post. Couldn't have said it better myself.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> I didn't plow through this thread a whole lot, but Theo brought up some great points--saying what some of us were too scared to say.


Thank you


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