# Merged: Ron Artest DPOY



## Pay Ton

ESPN just announced it. 

How are they getting this info?


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## kcchiefs-fan

Artest is a helluva self-promoter.


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## Nevus

Rick Carlisle was promoting him pretty hard too. They showed that stat earlier that the Pacers kept track of, where they found that guys Artest was guarding averaged 9 shots and 8 points per game against him over the course of the season.


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## MLKG

:no: 

Ben Wallace got screwed.

Carlisle sends his assistants looking for something they can use, and if any reporters actually let his findings factor into their decision then frankly they are morons. For one, there is absolutely no basis of comparison for the stats they found, without comparison, you can't even tell if they are good or bad. Two, the people doing the research had a predetermined conception that they were looking to prove, rather than drawing a conclusion from the data they collected. You know as they sat in that room watching all the game tapes they gave Artest the benefit of the doubt on every possible play and did whatever possible to make sure their data supported their already established conclusion.

Shameless self promotion looks like it has done him a lot of good.

Ron Artest does one thing better than everyone else, and that is deny people the ball. Once they get the ball in their hands, he is no better a defender than your Bruce Bowen's and Doug Christie's of the world. 

Yes he is an outstanding perimeter defender, but his total defensive impact doesn't even come close to that of Ben Wallace or even Andre Kirilenko.

All week I've been reading these asinine articles by voting members of the media saying Artest can shut down the best player on the floor no matter the position. This is just utterly stupid. No, Artest can not guard centers, power forwards, or even point guards with any sort of effectiveness relative to average to good defenders natural to the position. He is NOT Dennis Rodman.

All things considered, Ben Wallace has had the best defensive season of his career this year. 2nd in rebounds, 2nd in blocks, 7th in steals, and he anchored one of the best defenses in NBA history.

Ron Artest won the award this year simply because people didn't feel like voting Ben Wallace 3 years in a row.


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## Zach

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> :no:
> 
> Ben Wallace got screwed.
> 
> 
> 
> Ron Artest won the award this year simply because people didn't feel like voting Ben Wallace 3 years in a row.


Ne he didn't. Artest has bigger defensive responsibilities by guarding quick guards where Ben just waits for people to drive and then he tries to block their shot. That last sentence you wrote is just flat out stupid.


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## PacersguyUSA

> All things considered, Ben Wallace has had the best defensive season of his career this year. 2nd in rebounds, 2nd in blocks, 7th in steals, and he anchored one of the best defenses in NBA history.


So When stats are used to prove Ben Wallace the defensive player of the year, that is okay, but when they are used to prove that Tinsley is better than Billups "stats don't matter" ?


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## MJG

*Re: Okay again LOL... Ron Artest DPOY*



> Originally posted by <b>Pay Ton</b>!
> 
> How are they getting this info?


Heh that's what I was thinking. I'm just waiting for "ESPN has learned that the 2003-2004 NBA champions will be the Minnesota Timberwolves in six. Congrats T'Wovles fans!"


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## Amareca

Ben Wallace isn't a very good man-to-man defender either.

He is really a good team defender but not man-to-man.


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## Spriggan

ron artest is well overdue for DPOY. i can't believe some people are complaining about it.


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## Priest

I'm glad artest won..but wallace doesnt get any justice on this board:no:


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## reHEATed

Ben Wallace deserves it, but Artest deserved it even more. I think Artest is a better defender. Just my opinion. 

Ben gets those blocks usually not on his man, and rebounds dont count as defense, or KG would be defensive player of the year. Big Ben is excellent, but this was Artest's year


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## MongolianDeathCloud

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> Ben Wallace isn't a very good man-to-man defender either.
> 
> He is really a good team defender but not man-to-man.


I disagree, Ben Wallace is a very good individual defender. However, he's an _excetional_(Edit: haha, "exce*p*tional") help defender so he's known for this rather than his individual defense. I've seen him isolated before, although it's uncommon because it's not effective, and he does as well as anyone.

If he was anything less than a very good individual defender he would get abused repeatedly by his man because he nearly always gives up height in his matchup. Further, he's quick enough to not be abused by pick and rolls or be lost on the perimeter.

Not to take anything away from Artest.


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## Lope31

I'd like to see Artest try to matchup with Kobe Bryant just so we can show all the nut-lovers that his bad boy image has blown his reuptation through the roof. People that say Ben Wallace only guards forwards obviously haven't watched any Pistons games. Last year in the Philly/Detroit series Ben Wallace even guarded Allen Iverson at times. They think he is only a big man defender but they seem to forget that Ben Wallace is the same height as a guard and started out playing the shooting guard spot (training camp with Boston ALONG time ago) He can guard guards and he is strong enough to guard forwards. If Ben Wallace walked around like a psychopath on the loose then maybe he would get it again who knows.


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## Yyzlin

Personally, I believe Duncan was better than both Wallace and Artest this year. If they did have to choose someone else though, I agree that Artest is the pick.


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## froggyvk

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> So When stats are used to prove Ben Wallace the defensive player of the year, that is okay, but when they are used to prove that Tinsley is better than Billups "stats don't matter" ?


Stats _don't_ prove Tinsley is better than Billups.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> Ben Wallace isn't a very good man-to-man defender either.
> 
> He is really a good team defender but not man-to-man.


Just because he does most of his defense off the ball doesn't mean he isn't a good man defender. He's a great man defender, but for some reason everybody refuses to believe this.

Before Rasheed Wallace came, Ben always checked the opposing teams best post player, and Detroit still had a top 5 defense. It's no secret he does his best work off the ball, and Detroit didn't claim the #1 defense until Sheed came, but that shouldn't take anything away from Ben.

And how does Artest have a bigger defensive responsiblity because he covers guards? Ben Wallace guards ENTIRE TEAMS with his help defense. He blocks any shot a guard tries bringing inside and does an incredible job denying big guys the ball by tipping and stealing entry passes.

The whole Ben Wallace can't play man defense is getting out of control. He completely shut down Jermaine O'Neal two weeks ago, where he, not Rasheed Wallace, checked JO the entire game. Earlier this year he checked Tim Duncan the whole game and forced him into 6 turnovers and when Tim tried backing him down for the game winner he sent the shot back in his face. Two games later he checked Kevin Garnett the whole game and held him to 35% from the field and blocked KG's shot with about 30 seconds left to set up that infamous Chauncey Billups offensive foul. 

I don't want to get into the whole who did what in what game thing, but Ben proved time and time again this season that he is one of the elite man post defenders in the league. To suggest anything otherwise is a complete myth unfounded in reality.

If a team is having problem with Artest, you can simply go to somebody else. There is nothing you can do to escape the defensive influence of Ben Wallace. 

And besides, the last time I checked it wasn't called the "Man Up Defender of the Year" award. DPOY is for the player who has the greatest defensive impact on the game. The only guy you can even make a case for having the same impact as Ben is Kirilenko- and even then it would only be a token case as Ben is clearly better.


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## statsguy7

Ron Artest is a dang good defender but I don't see how they can justify Ben Wallace not getting the award. Ben has won the award in the past, and then this year he had a better defensive year than those other years when he won it, yet he doesn't now?


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## Pacers Fan

> Originally posted by <b>KABI</b>!
> If Ben Wallace walked around like a psychopath on the loose then maybe he would get it again who knows.


First off that's one of the most ignorant statements i have ever seen on this board. The reason Artest *did not* get DPOY last year was because of his antics, this year, he got a suspension for almost no reason and has mostly controlled his temper. You of all people, with recent pacers vs pistons topics should know that Artest has controlled his temper this year.


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## PacersguyUSA

> I'd like to see Artest try to matchup with Kobe Bryant just so we can show all the nut-lovers that his bad boy image has blown his reuptation through the roof.


Artest easily has his way with McGrady, who plays the same style as Kobe, but is better. 




> Stats don't prove Tinsley is better than Billups.


When I made the argument last season, Tinsley led Billups in a majority of the statistical categories, and he fit in with the Pacers well. According to me, and apparently Mike Luvs KG, that makes Tinsley the point guard.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> When I made the argument last season, Tinsley led Billups in a majority of the statistical categories, and he fit in with the Pacers well. According to me, and apparently Mike Luvs KG, that makes Tinsley the point guard.


No, you just made a bunch of asinine statements using retarded logic.

For anyone unfamiliar with PacersguyUSA's Tinsley-Billups argument. He determined Tinsley was a better player because he lead Billups in more statistical categories. In his argument he weighted Tinsley's .25 bpg to .10 bpg lead over Billups to be just as valuable as Billups 16.2 ppg to 7.8 ppg lead over Tinsley. There were other equally ridiculous comparison's as well.

At first read, you'd think the whole thing was joke but he's continually brought it up over the past year to the point where there is no question he is actually serious.


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## PacersguyUSA

And I also took into consideration Tinsley's large lead in assists per game and his better assist to turnover ratio, but yeah you can completely ignore that if you'd like. 

And I also said that Tinsley's more assists help the Pacers more than Billups lead in scoring.

Remember last season.

By the way, retarded means delayed, and I seem to remember responding with my logic quite quickly, but what does speed of response have to do with it regardless?


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## "Matt!"

> Originally posted by <b>statsguy7</b>!
> Ron Artest is a dang good defender but I don't see how they can justify Ben Wallace not getting the award. Ben has won the award in the past, and then this year he had a better defensive year than those other years when he won it, yet he doesn't now?


Speaking of retarded logic, here's an example. Say Tim Duncan won the MVP last year with 21/12/3, and this year he has 25/13/4. Say Kevin Garnett leads his team to just as good a record, but averages 29/15/5, does Duncan still deserve MVP because he put up better stats than last year?

Also, I don't know where any of you get this idea that either Artest or Wallace can't guard on the ball. They are both tremendous man and team defenders, and both were equally deserving of the award. Stick Artest on any guard, he's done. Stick Wallace in the paint, nothing gets by. Artest denies the ball well, and stays in front of his man with quickness and freakish strength. Wallace hangs around weakside, and simply uses his wide, strong frame to get good position when a shot goes up. How many guys you seen get AROUND Ben Wallace?


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## Chicago76

I just got back to Chicago from watching the game Pacers-Celtics game. 

A sampling of what Artest did today for those who didn't see the game:

He blocked two Pierce shots in one on one isolation situations w/ the clock running down to force turnovers. His defense with 8 seconds or so on the shot clock forced two horrible shots on one on ones with Pierce and I forget who that lead to 24 second violations. He created 2 or 3 turnovers from either stripping a man on a double team or tipping a ball that wound up in a teammate's hands. So in 39 minutes of play, the guy created 6 or 7 turnovers, not to mention hounding guys into throwing other bad passes resulting in TOs. So in one out of at least every 12 or so Boston possessions he was on the court, he forced a turnover. 

Pierce, while getting 20 pts and 10 rebounds, was forced to earn every point on 18 shots and 8 turnovers. Crunching the numbers, Paul Pierce was 25% less effecient scoring than the average NBA player today and Artest was the primary reason. If your go to guy is having this kind of trouble, your team is in trouble. Sure, it's one game, but Artest has been doing this all year. 

He deserves the award as much as anyone.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Matt85163</b>!
> 
> Speaking of retarded logic, here's an example. Say Tim Duncan won the MVP last year with 21/12/3, and this year he has 25/13/4. Say Kevin Garnett leads his team to just as good a record, but averages 29/15/5, does Duncan still deserve MVP because he put up better stats than last year?


No, but in this (hypothetical) case, Garnett has improved his game significantly more than Duncan.

Ben Wallace has improved his game, with Larry Brown's 3/4 court press, Ben has been very effective playing like a free safety using his quickness and vertical to pick off long passes. He's still the same blocking and rebounding monster he was last year, but now he's also wrecking havoc in the passing lanes. Minus the temper problems, Artest is the exact same player he was last year. Yes he has matured, but his improvement has been on the offensive end. He lost in a landslide then, what has suddenly made the overwhelmingly popular choice now?

In my opinion, it's a combination of the little fit he threw last year, and the feel good vote for cleaning up his act.

I'm not trying to knock Ron Artest here. I actually thing he is pretty underrated as basketball player on the whole. I just don't think he is the best defensive player in basketball.


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## -33-

Artest is very underrated....he's just one of those guys that will always be labeled as a nutcase (eventhough he sorta is still) but he's a very very good player who I'd bet any coach would like to have....


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## vadimivich

Someone please for god's sake mention Andrei Kirilinko in this thread. If anyone got robbed, it was him and not Ben Wallace. 

AK47 is probably the best on the ball defender of the 2-4 spots on the floor, not to mention a terrific shot blocker AND creator of turnovers.


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## Zach

> Originally posted by <b>vadimivich</b>!
> Someone please for god's sake mention Andrei Kirilinko in this thread. If anyone got robbed, it was him and not Ben Wallace.
> 
> AK47 is probably the best on the ball defender of the 2-4 spots on the floor, not to mention a terrific shot blocker AND creator of turnovers.




Somewhat true, but Ron Artest shoulda won last year. This is his turn.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> Artest easily has his way with McGrady, who plays the same style as Kobe, but is better.


What? In two meetings this season with the Pacers Tmac had 43 one game and 21-11-6 in the other.

Hardly Artest having his way.


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## Lope31

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> First off that's one of the most ignorant statements i have ever seen on this board. The reason Artest *did not* get DPOY last year was because of his antics, this year, he got a suspension for almost no reason and has mostly controlled his temper. You of all people, with recent pacers vs pistons topics should know that Artest has controlled his temper this year.


Look me in my Basketballboards.Net eyes (right here > :|) and try to tell me that Ron Artest's wacky reputation did nothing to help his cause. You can't, it's impossible. He may have calmed down as far as intentional fouls go but people remember this is an act put on by a not so mentally stable person. (Hell of a player but not a mentally stable person). Artest is a great player but he isn't the defensive monster he is made out to be, it's just the nut-hugging media trying to promote his "out-there"-ness.


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## Priest

> Originally posted by <b>vadimivich</b>!
> Someone please for god's sake mention Andrei Kirilinko in this thread. If anyone got robbed, it was him and not Ben Wallace.
> 
> AK47 is probably the best on the ball defender of the 2-4 spots on the floor, not to mention a terrific shot blocker AND creator of turnovers.


til he faces kg, duncan, and even gasol


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## Spriggan

who cares people?

why all the arguing?

bruce bowen didn't win, and that's really all that matters. you wanna talk about overrated? look no further than bowen.


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## MarioChalmers

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> Ben Wallace isn't a very good man-to-man defender either.
> 
> He is really a good team defender but not man-to-man.


It might be obvious... but the fact that he alters shots changes everything. I mean, imagine Kobe Bryant driving inside and asking himself "where's ben and how do I avoid him this time?"


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## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>Priest</b>!
> 
> 
> til he faces kg, duncan, and even gasol


As a Memphis fan, I'll tell you that Gasol sucks eggs against Kirilenko. It's just embarassing when we play the Jazz because either Andrei just has his way with Pau or Gasol plays like a chump when he sees purple.

In three games in which Pau played Kirilenko, he shot 11/31 and scored a total of 33 points. This includes a memorable 1-9 performance in which he scored just 10 points, his lowest output of the year. In fact, Kirilenko held Pau to 10 _twice_ this year, his first _and_ second lowest.

Memphis was 1-2 in those games.

That being said, Artest had a fantastic year. But Kirilenko is obviously next in line to get the award.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>vadimivich</b>!
> Someone please for god's sake mention Andrei Kirilinko in this thread. If anyone got robbed, it was him and not Ben Wallace.
> 
> AK47 is probably the best on the ball defender of the 2-4 spots on the floor, not to mention a terrific shot blocker AND creator of turnovers.


Now that, I can agree with.


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## reHEATed

I agree with Ak being second as well. Steals, blocks and nobody scores on him, and is so versatile on the defensive end


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## Pay Ton

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> who cares people?
> 
> why all the arguing?
> 
> bruce bowen didn't win, and that's really all that matters. you wanna talk about overrated? look no further than bowen.


that's funny.

Kobe doesn't seem to think so.


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## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Pay Ton</b>!
> 
> 
> that's funny.
> 
> Kobe doesn't seem to think so.


yes, bowen is the true kobe-stopper. kobe only averages a 30 spot on him, but damn does bowen try hard to stop him.


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## MLKG

I agree Kirilenko is second.... only he should be second to Ben Wallace.

I don't really know how you could make a case for him over Wallace. Ak47 is basically Ben Wallace Lite. He does the same things as Ben only not as well.

I think the DPOY award should be for the player with the greatest total defensive impact- in which case Ben Wallace, AK47, and Tim Duncan should have been the top 3 with Ben winning it. All 3 of those guys are hell on entire teams. Artest can only effect one guy at a time.


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## Scott

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> I agree Kirilenko is second.... only he should be second to Ben Wallace.
> 
> I don't really know how you could make a case for him over Wallace. Ak47 is basically Ben Wallace Lite. He does the same things as been only not as well.
> 
> I think the DPOY award should be for the player with the greatest total defensive impact- in which case Ben Wallace, AK47, and Tim Duncan should have been the top 3 with Ben winning it. All 3 of those guys are hell on entire teams. Artest can only effect one guy at a time.


Artest doesn't effect teams? So taking out the best perimeter scorer doesn't hurt entire teams? It does. And if it were not for Cliff Robinson's post D the previous two seasons Wallace may not of been far in away the best defensive player. And Wallace would not have as much of a case this season if Rasheed didn't come over and help the pistons to the best D (tied with San Antonio and one point a game ahead of Indy). Look at the numbers of good post players against the the pistons before Rasheed came over. Ben is not a great individual post defender.

Not only does Artest hound the best perimeter players in the game but he also quite possibly leads the league in deflections which lead to turnovers (a stat that is not kept) and he does a great job of switching when the Pacers front the post.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Scott</b>!
> 
> Not only does Artest hound the best perimeter players in the game but he also quite possibly leads the league in deflections which lead to turnovers (a stat that is not kept) and he does a great job of switching when the Pacers front the post.


He also quite possibly isn't.

Jerry Sloan has been keeping deflection stats for years and he said Kirilenko averages far more than even Stockton did in his prime. Ben Wallace is also constantly deflecting passes and tipping rebounds to teammates.


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## Minstrel

I'm not even convinced Ben Wallace is the best defender on his team. Rasheed Wallace is a superior man defender and a very good help defender.

Andrei Kirilenko is a lock-down man defender, he's versatile as a defender and he's as good a help defender as Ben Wallace. It may not all be as blocked shots, but also swiping balls away or just forcing a pass back out.

I think Kirilenko should have won it, if Kevin Garnett is not going to be considered.


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## froggyvk

Ron Artest stops an individual players. Ben Wallace stops _teams._


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> I'm not even convinced Ben Wallace is the best defender on his team. Rasheed Wallace is a superior man defender and a very good help defender.


Watching them play side by side for 20 or so games, there is no question in my mind Ben is the better defender. Sheed is better at stretching out to the perimeter to guard guys, but Ben gives up very little to him in terms of low post man to man defense.


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## Pay Ton

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> yes, bowen is the true kobe-stopper. kobe only averages a 30 spot on him, but damn does bowen try hard to stop him.


I think you misunderstood the point of my post. I *never* said Bowen was a Kobe stopper, nobody is. So I would appreciate it if you don't put words in my mouth. 

What I actually meant by "Kobe doesn't think so" is that he, himself, has said Bowen is a great defender, and you can tell when Kobe plays him, he gets that fire. He knows about Bowens superior defense and wants to challenge it.

So what I meant was that even Kobe agrees that Bowen is a great defender. Your all, loving, mighty, Kobe, who if someone said something which just had his name mentioned in it, you would take it the wrong way and completely babble nonsense to defend your case.


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## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Pay Ton</b>!
> 
> 
> I think you misunderstood the point of my post. I *never* said Bowen was a Kobe stopper, nobody is. So I would appreciate it if you don't put words in my mouth.
> 
> What I actually meant by "Kobe doesn't think so" is that he, himself, has said Bowen is a great defender, and you can tell when Kobe plays him, he gets that fire. He knows about Bowens superior defense and wants to challenge it.
> 
> So what I meant was that even Kobe agrees that Bowen is a great defender. Your all, loving, mighty, Kobe, who if someone said something which just had his name mentioned in it, you would take it the wrong way and completely babble nonsense to defend your case.


why don't you re-read what you wrote, and how you wrote it, genius?


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## Pay Ton

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> why don't you re-read what you wrote, and how you wrote it, genius?


OK, I did.

And...?


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## reHEATed

> Originally posted by <b>froggyvk</b>!
> Ron Artest stops an individual players. Ben Wallace stops _teams._


so Rasheed Wallace, Tayshuan Prince and others have nothing to do with that. BW doesnt stop teams, the pistons stop teams


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## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Pay Ton</b>!
> 
> 
> OK, I did.
> 
> And...?


i'm going to go out on a limb and say that english isn't your first language.


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## Nevus

I would rather have Duncan for team defense than Ben Wallace.


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## Pay Ton

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> i'm going to go out on a limb and say that english isn't your first language.


Ok, buddy.

Let's *break down* my old post for your sake, shall we?



> Kobe doesn't seem to think so.


Now, lemme see. Hmmm... 

By saying Kobe doesn't seem to think so, It's obvious what I REALLY mean is "Bruce Bowen is the Kobe Stopper, and he locks down on Kobe, and Kobe plays like garbage because Bowens defense is almighty." Wow. I guess you're right.

OR it could simply mean "Kobe doesn't agree with you that Bowen is an overrated defender" hence the statement, (which I will put in bold for you) *Kobe doesn't seem to think so.*.

But that CAN'T be what I meant.


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## PacersguyUSA

> I think the DPOY award should be for the player with the greatest total defensive impact- in which case Ben Wallace, AK47, and Tim Duncan should have been the top 3 with Ben winning it. All 3 of those guys are hell on entire teams. Artest can only effect one guy at a time.


And guess what happens when you shut down the Magic's McGrady, the Cav's James, the Celtic's Pierce, the 76er's Iverson, the Raptor's Carter, the Hawk's Terry Dallas's Nowitzki, Denver's Anthony, Golden Stat's Richardson, Houston's Francis/Mobley, the Clipper's Maggette, the Laker's Kobe, Miami's Odom, Minnesota's Sprewell, New Orleans's Mashburn, Phoenix's Marion, and Seattle's Allan/Lewis etc.?

That's right, they lose and that is why the Paces are 62 and 21.


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## reHEATed

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> Miami's Odom,


Artest didnt guard Odom, JO did in all of our games

on another note, sinced BW stops the entire team, Sheed and Prince and Billups and Hamilton should all sit out today and lets watch the great Wallace stop the entire Bucks all by himself like piston fans are makin it out to be


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## Priest

Why all the hate on Wallace????? he is a playeer that comes to work everyday he isnt a nut case or a dirty player...you never hear anything bad about wallace so why all the *****ing...give him his due...6''8 center...and who in the league thats a post player stops another all star post player??? no one!!!!


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## Yyzlin

Ben Wallace is NOT the defensive player of the year. He's simply not the exceptional man-to-man defender that the other players that are in consideration are. Kirilenko is worthy of the award, but Garnett has been a better defender and just as versatile, yet is curiously ignored.


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## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Pay Ton</b>!
> 
> 
> Ok, buddy.
> 
> Let's *break down* my old post for your sake, shall we?
> 
> 
> 
> Now, lemme see. Hmmm...
> 
> By saying Kobe doesn't seem to think so, It's obvious what I REALLY mean is "Bruce Bowen is the Kobe Stopper, and he locks down on Kobe, and Kobe plays like garbage because Bowens defense is almighty." Wow. I guess you're right.
> 
> OR it could simply mean "Kobe doesn't agree with you that Bowen is an overrated defender" hence the statement, (which I will put in bold for you) *Kobe doesn't seem to think so.*.
> 
> But that CAN'T be what I meant.


sigh... looks like i actually have to explain it. how sad.

kobe and bowen have a backstory, particularly in the playoffs. they don't like each other. bowen has been called the "kobe-stopper". i assume you already know this.

i called bowen an overrated defender. you replied that, of all people, KOBE "doesn't seem to think so". common sense would indicate that what you meant is that bowen isn't overrated because he is the supposed "kobe-stopper". not to mention that i've never heard kobe say anything good about bowen. the complete opposite, in fact.

am i getting through to you yet?


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## reHEATed

> Originally posted by <b>Priest</b>!
> Why all the hate on Wallace????? he is a playeer that comes to work everyday he isnt a nut case or a dirty player...you never hear anything bad about wallace so why all the *****ing...give him his due...6''8 center...and who in the league thats a post player stops another all star post player??? no one!!!!


im not hating at all. Just responding to posts saying BW does it all and stops entire teams. That means he thinks Ben is the only reason for the pistons having the best defense, not counting the great defense of Rasheed and Tayshuan. Ben doesnt stop entire teams, the psitons do. Ben doesnt do everything. He is great, but doesnt stop entire teams


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## Yyzlin

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> sigh... looks like i actually have to explain it. how sad.
> 
> kobe and bowen have a backstory, particularly in the playoffs. they don't like each other. bowen has been called the "kobe-stopper". i assume you already know this.
> 
> i called bowen an overrated defender. you replied that, of all people, KOBE "doesn't seem to think so". common sense would indicate that what you meant is that bowen isn't overrated because he is the supposed "kobe-stopper". not to mention that i've never heard kobe say anything good about bowen. the complete opposite, in fact.
> 
> am i getting through to you yet?


Bowen is not overrated as a defender. The Spurs give up 4.9 PTS less per 100 possessions when he is on the floor, and that is very significant considering the players often replacing him are high quality defenders as well such as Ginoboli and Turkoglu.


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## Pay Ton

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> sigh... looks like i actually have to explain it. how sad.


Good. Seeing as how that's usually one of the things people do to rationalize their opinion. I know this all might seem new to you.



> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> kobe and bowen have a backstory, particularly in the playoffs. they don't like each other. bowen has been called the "kobe-stopper". i assume you already know this.
> 
> i called bowen an overrated defender. you replied that, of all people, KOBE "doesn't seem to think so". common sense would indicate that what you meant is that bowen isn't overrated because he is the supposed "kobe-stopper". not to mention that i've never heard kobe say anything good about bowen. the complete opposite, in fact.
> 
> am i getting through to you yet?


Question. You asked if English was my first language. Now I ask you, is English even part of your vocabulary?

Of all people, I said Kobe? Yeah so what. Would you want me to say T-Mac instead? You answered your own question. Why did I say Kobe? Well because, as you said, Kobe and Bowen have a history in the playoffs. So what other way should I illustrate my point, than to point out that one of Bowen's biggest foes seems to think he is a good defender? 

Your common sense is strange. Are you trying to say that by me saying "Kobe doesn't seem to think so." That you were able to determine that I meant Bowen isn't overrated because he is the "Kobe stopper"? No, that doesn't seem like common sense to me at all. It's funny that you were able to determine all that from one simple statement. 

Also, does their dislike for one another mean that there's NO WAY that Kobe would say something good about Bowen? I'm surprised, for someone who is quick to defend Kobe, (even though I wasn't even bashing him) you seem to think Kobe is stubborn enough to not acknowledge an opponent just based on the fact that he's Kobe's enemy. News flash, Kobe's acknowledged several of his enemies. 

Are you getting through to me? No, not really. But if that's what you're trying to do. Don't bother. It will be a hopeless effort.


----------



## Nevus

> And guess what happens when you shut down the Magic's McGrady, the Cav's James, the Celtic's Pierce, the 76er's Iverson, the Raptor's Carter, the Hawk's Terry Dallas's Nowitzki, Denver's Anthony, Golden Stat's Richardson, Houston's Francis/Mobley, the Clipper's Maggette, the Laker's Kobe, Miami's Odom, Minnesota's Sprewell, New Orleans's Mashburn, Phoenix's Marion, and Seattle's Allan/Lewis etc.?
> 
> That's right, they lose and that is why the Paces are 62 and 21.


When did Artest ever shut down LeBron James? LeBron did well against the Pacers and Artest all season. He actually did a lot better against Ron than almost anybody because Ron can't overpower him physically.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Pay Ton</b>!
> 
> 
> Good. Seeing as how that's usually one of the things people do to rationalize their opinion. I know this all might seem new to you.
> 
> 
> 
> Question. You asked if English was my first language. Now I ask you, is English even part of your vocabulary?
> 
> Of all people, I said Kobe? Yeah so what. Would you want me to say T-Mac instead? You answered your own question. Why did I say Kobe? Well because, as you said, Kobe and Bowen have a history in the playoffs. So what other way should I illustrate my point, than to point out that one of Bowen's biggest foes seems to think he is a good defender?
> 
> Your common sense is strange. Are you trying to say that by me saying "Kobe doesn't seem to think so." That you were able to determine that I meant Bowen isn't overrated because he is the "Kobe stopper"? No, that doesn't seem like common sense to me at all. It's funny that you were able to determine all that from one simple statement.
> 
> Also, does their dislike for one another mean that there's NO WAY that Kobe would say something good about Bowen? I'm surprised, for someone who is quick to defend Kobe, (even though I wasn't even bashing him) you seem to think Kobe is stubborn enough to not acknowledge an opponent just based on the fact that he's Kobe's enemy. News flash, Kobe's acknowledged several of his enemies.
> 
> Are you getting through to me? No, not really. But if that's what you're trying to do. Don't bother. It will be a hopeless effort.


i can tell it's a hopeless effort. you seem to have very little understanding of the intricacies of the english language, which is why i won't even bother anymore.

also, please point me to a link where kobe says anything good about bowen. i'd appreciate it.

don't worry though, i make up things when i'm stuck in an argument too. what will you say next? that ray allen respects bowen? that vince carter respects bowen? i'm honestly curious.


----------



## Yyzlin

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> i can tell it's a hopeless effort. you seem to have very little understanding of the intricacies of the english language, which is why i won't even bother anymore.
> 
> also, please point me to a link where kobe says anything good about bowen. i'd appreciate it.
> 
> don't worry though, i make up things when i'm stuck in an argument too. what will you say next? that ray allen respects bowen? that vince carter respects bowen? i'm honestly curious.


Read my post above then. Does that convince you that Bowen is a good defender?


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> 
> Read my post above then. Does that convince you that Bowen is a good defender?


i never said bowen wasn't a good defender. i just said he's overrated. he's certainly a better defender than most players, but he also has the privilege of having duncan sitting in the paint.

you could make that same argument about kobe, since he has shaq, but kobe has shown time and again that he can completely lock down his opponent when necessary. bowen has yet to prove that. bowen has the ability to slow most players down, but he can't consistently shut down a player like artest or even kirilenko. people seem to want to put bowen in their league when it comes to defense. some even hyped him up as the DPOTY this year. that's why i think he's overrated.

plus, i simply neither like nor respect players that only show up on one end of the court. the only exception is ben wallace, but that's only because he's an absolutely overwhelming defensive presence.

but the other "defensive stoppers" such as bowen, ruben patterson, trenton hassell etc... i simply don't respect. but that's just me.


----------



## Yyzlin

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> i never said bowen wasn't a good defender. i just said he's overrated. he's certainly a better defender than most players, but he also has the privilege of having duncan sitting in the paint.
> 
> you could make that same argument about kobe, since he has shaq, but kobe has shown time and again that he can completely lock down his opponent when necessary. bowen has yet to prove that. bowen has the ability to slow most players down, but he can't consistently shut down a player like artest or even kirilenko. people seem to want to put bowen in their league when it comes to defense. some even hyped him up as the DPOTY this year. that's why i think he's overrated.
> 
> plus, i simply neither like nor respect players that only show up on one end of the court. the only exception is ben wallace, but that's only because he's an absolutely overwhelming defensive presence.
> 
> but the other "defensive stoppers" such as bowen, ruben patterson, trenton hassell etc... i simply don't respect. but that's just me.


There is no relevance whether Bowen has Duncan on his team or not. The team on a whole give up less points when Bowen is on the floor in relation to when he is on the floor. It's not as if Bowen only plays when Duncan is on the floor, and sits down the exact time Duncan sits down. 

And it doesn't matter whether or not Bowen shows up on both sides on the court or not. The topic in discussion is the Defensive Player of the Year. Not the Player of the Year. It makes no sense to penalize Bowen for something that doesn't relate to the subject on hand.


----------



## Pay Ton

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> i can tell it's a hopeless effort. you seem to have very little understanding of the intricacies of the english language, which is why i won't even bother anymore.


Dido.



> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> also, please point me to a link where kobe says anything good about bowen. i'd appreciate it.


Gladly. http://www.sportspages.com/content/blog.php?p=914&more=1 

Yeah, your hero IS admitting that Bruce makes it tough for Kobe to get off shots and score points. That he makes him work. Apparently Kobe isn't as blind as you are.



> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> don't worry though, i make up things when i'm stuck in an argument too. what will you say next? that ray allen respects bowen? that vince carter respects bowen? i'm honestly curious.


Do you, really? I don't. But it's not my character to lie, I guess it's yours. Your argument is quickly fading. You are grasping for something to use against me. First, you say I need to re-read what I wrote. When that didn't work, you ask for a link. So I give you one. What else do you want? You seem to be hanging on by a thread. And you're comments about ray allen and carter acknowledging bruce make this apparent. You don't have to be curious. Unlike you, I'm not gonna move on to something else to try and win this argument. I'm sticking with what I've said. Your arguments are getting tired. Vince Carter? Ray Allen? Please. Spare yourself the embarassment.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> 
> There is no relevance whether Bowen has Duncan on his team or not. The team on a whole give up less points when Bowen is on the floor in relation to when he is on the floor. It's not as if Bowen only plays when Duncan is on the floor, and sits down the exact time Duncan sits down.
> 
> And it doesn't matter whether or not Bowen shows up on both sides on the court or not. The topic in discussion is the Defensive Player of the Year. Not the Player of the Year. It makes no sense to penalize Bowen for something that doesn't relate to the subject on hand.


once again, i didn't say bowen wasn't a good defender, but you can't honestly tell me having duncan in the paint doesn't make him a good deal more effective. of course having bowen on the floor will make the spurs a better defensive team. he's a good defender. but duncan still plays the majority of the game. how long is bowen usually on the floor without duncan? very little. you'll notice bowen wasn't as effective when duncan was injured. i seem to remember finley torching him until bowen decided to lay him out.

as for bowen not showing up on the offensive end, i didn't take that into account when discussing his D. it's merely a personal preference of mine.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Pay Ton</b>!
> 
> 
> Dido.
> 
> 
> 
> Gladly. http://www.sportspages.com/content/blog.php?p=914&more=1
> 
> Yeah, your hero IS admitting that Bruce makes it tough for Kobe to get off shots and score points. That he makes him work. Apparently Kobe isn't as blind as you are.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you, really? I don't. But it's not my character to lie, I guess it's yours. Your argument is quickly fading. You are grasping for something to use against me. First, you say I need to re-read what I wrote. When that didn't work, you ask for a link. So I give you one. What else do you want? You seem to be hanging on by a thread. And you're comments about ray allen and carter acknowledging bruce make this apparent. You don't have to be curious. Unlike you, I'm not gonna move on to something else to try and win this argument. I'm sticking with what I've said. Your arguments are getting tired. Vince Carter? Ray Allen? Please. Spare yourself the embarassment.


my god, that link you gave me even STATES kobe saying "he can't guard me." i'm pretty sure if kobe respected bowen's D, he wouldn't have said that, now would he? he then goes on to emphasize it: "individually, he can't guard me", obviously referring to the fact that bowen has duncan sitting in the paint.

but thanks for proving my point. 

the only reason i mentioned ray allen and VC is because they both have one thing in common with kobe: they have openly complained about bowen's dirty defense. but yeah, you're right, kobe respects bowen. my bad.

speaking of embarrassment, what the hell is dido? that singer? i'm assuming you meant "ditto", but then again, english isn't your first language. you are forgiven.


----------



## Yyzlin

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> once again, i didn't say bowen wasn't a good defender, but you can't honestly tell me having duncan in the paint doesn't make him a good deal more effective. of course having bowen on the floor will make the spurs a better defensive team. he's a good defender. but duncan still plays the majority of the game. how long is bowen usually on the floor without duncan? very little. you'll notice bowen wasn't as effective when duncan was injured. i seem to remember finley torching him until bowen decided to lay him out.
> 
> as for bowen not showing up on the offensive end, i didn't take that into account when discussing his D. it's merely a personal preference of mine.


Once again, on my part, having Duncan on his team doesn't reflect on his +/- defensive rating. The statistic measure the maount of points the Spurs give up when Bowen is on the floor, compared to when he is not. I don't think Bowen's replacements play with Duncan any less than Bowen does. Instead, as you can see, it is the players that replace him that O reflect on the stat, and considering Ginoboli and Turkoglu usually are the ones who interchange positionally with Bowen, that is an even greater implication of Bowen's defensive prowess. There's no question in my mind that Bowen is among the very few top perimeter defenders in the league. If he's overrated, then you might as well consider Artest overrated as well. They are extremely comparable defensively.


----------



## Pay Ton

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> my god, that link you gave me even STATES kobe saying "he can't guard me." i'm pretty sure if kobe respected bowen's D, he wouldn't have said that, now would he? he then goes on to emphasize it: "individually, he can't guard me", obviously referring to the fact that bowen has duncan sitting in the paint.


Wow. You honestly don't have a good understanding of things, do you? Yes, Kobe said he can't guard me. So. Who can? Tell me. He also acknowledged that Bruce makes things hard for him. Hmm... sounds like a positive comment to me. Now what kind of defender can make things hard for an UNGUARDABLE superstar? A good one. Face it, your reading what you want to read. 



> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> but thanks for proving my point.


What point? That your stubborness makes you refuse to believe that Kobe realizes Bowen is a good defender? Ok, well then you're welcome.



> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> the only reason i mentioned ray allen and VC is because they both have one thing in common with kobe: they have openly complained about bowen's dirty defense. but yeah, you're right, kobe respects bowen. my bad.


LMAO. If Kobe DID complain about Bowen's dirty defense, than it is obviously because he respects him. LOL. It's not like the Ruben Patterson situation where he self proclaimed he's the "Kobe stopper" and Kobe just brushed it off. THAT IS NO RESPECT. 



> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> speaking of embarrassment, what the hell is dido? that singer? i'm assuming you meant "ditto", but then again, english isn't your first language. you are forgiven.


:laugh: Classic.

I'll give you props for that. I'm not as stubborn as you and I realize when I've made a mistake. That's the only thing you've been right about all day.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Pay Ton</b>!
> 
> Wow. You honestly don't have a good understanding of things, do you? Yes, Kobe said he can't guard me. So. Who can? Tell me. He also acknowledged that Bruce makes things hard for him. Hmm... sounds like a positive comment to me. Now what kind of defender can make things hard for an UNGUARDABLE superstar? A good one. Face it, your reading what you want to read.


once again, you're wrong. what was the first thing i said? "bruce bowen is overrated". you said "kobe doesn't think so". what does what kobe said have ANYTHING to do with bowen being overrated or not? not only that, but that column that "quoted" kobe is obviously anti-kobe. try as i may, i couldn't find those same comments kobe made on bowen ANYWHERE else, so who knows if he even said it? how does it make any sense that kobe would say that bowen makes shots tough for him, then it the next sentence say that bowen can't guard him? guarding someone doesn't mean stopping them. it means... making shots tough for him. many defenders make kobe take tough shots. look at cuttino mobley. he guards kobe well. finley usually covers kobe well. same with doug christie. does that automatically make them superstar defenders?



> LMAO. If Kobe DID complain about Bowen's dirty defense, than it is obviously because he respects him. LOL. It's not like the Ruben Patterson situation where he self proclaimed he's the "Kobe stopper" and Kobe just brushed it off. THAT IS NO RESPECT.


do you even read what you write? he compains about bowen's *DIRTY* defense. you think if someone calls bowen dirty, they RESPECT him? dirty means he cheats on defense. i wouldn't consider that a compliment.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> 
> Once again, on my part, having Duncan on his team doesn't reflect on his +/- defensive rating. The statistic measure the maount of points the Spurs give up when Bowen is on the floor, compared to when he is not. I don't think Bowen's replacements play with Duncan any less than Bowen does. Instead, as you can see, it is the players that replace him that O reflect on the stat, and considering Ginoboli and Turkoglu usually are the ones who interchange positionally with Bowen, that is an even greater implication of Bowen's defensive prowess. There's no question in my mind that Bowen is among the very few top perimeter defenders in the league. If he's overrated, then you might as well consider Artest overrated as well. They are extremely comparable defensively.


consider this: defensively speaking, what would be the change in the spurs and pacers were artest and bowen interchanged?

do you honestly believe the pacers would be as good defensively with bowen replacing artest?

jermaine o'neal is a nice defensive player, but i think artest would be a perennial DPOTY if he had duncan in the paint.


----------



## PacersguyUSA

> jermaine o'neal is a nice defensive player, but i think artest would be a perennial DPOTY if he had duncan in the paint.


Actually, Artest is better off with JO in the paint because JO is a better help defender than Duncan is. If and rarely a player gets around Artest, Jermaine is 98% of the time there to rejec the shot.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually, Artest is better off with JO in the paint because JO is a better help defender than Duncan is. If and rarely a player gets around Artest, Jermaine is 98% of the time there to rejec the shot.


duncan doesn't just stand there, you know. if a player gets around bowen, duncan is there. duncan is probably the best interior defender in the game. how do you think people feel about going up against bruce bowen when they know duncan will be there waiting for them when they get by bowen? if duncan isn't blocking shots, he's intimidating people.


----------



## Pay Ton

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> once again, you're wrong. what was the first thing i said? "bruce bowen is overrated". you said "kobe doesn't think so". what does what kobe said have ANYTHING to do with bowen being overrated or not?


Your ignorance frustrates me. Ok, here we go. Kobe is a respected SUPERSTAR and one of Bowen's BIGGEST FOES. I just wanted to state the simple fact that Kobe thinks Bowen is a fine defender, and that if Bowen has the respect of fellow superstars, he must not be as overrated as you think. But you know what, let me feed your ego. I'm wrong. Your right.



> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> not only that, but that column that "quoted" kobe is obviously anti-kobe.


Yes, I could tell. No argument here.



> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> try as i may, i couldn't find those same comments kobe made on bowen ANYWHERE else, so who knows if he even said it? how does it make any sense that kobe would say that bowen makes shots tough for him, then it the next sentence say that bowen can't guard him? guarding someone doesn't mean stopping them. it means... making shots tough for him. many defenders make kobe take tough shots. look at cuttino mobley. he guards kobe well. finley usually covers kobe well. same with doug christie. does that automatically make them superstar defenders?


One, you basically just copied your argument from the anti-Kobe article. Two, I never said anything about superstar defenders. Three, you're never satisfied are you? You ask me to post a link. I do. Then you question the validity of my source. I'm sorry that the article is anti-kobe, I really am. Now, you want to see another article?



> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> do you even read what you write? he compains about bowen's *DIRTY* defense. you think if someone calls bowen dirty, they RESPECT him? dirty means he cheats on defense. i wouldn't consider that a compliment.


Really? You wouldn't? How bout I post another link. 

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/columnists/mmonroe/stories/MYSA07.05C.p5c_mike_monroe_column040704.4c6373b.html 

Read Carlisle's comments around the middle of the article. He seems to think of it as a compliment. He even mentions respect. I've continued to show you things to back up my opinion. What have you done? Now, I'm not going to insult your character like you did to me (you accused me of making up those comments about Kobe acknowledging Bruce). I won't stoop that low. However, just so I know. Can you post me a link of Kobe calling Bowen a dirty defender? I've already seen Carter and Allen's comments. I just want to see Kobe's. Again, I'm not implying that you're lying. I just simply want to see the link.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Pay Ton</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your ignorance frustrates me. Ok, here we go. Kobe is a respected SUPERSTAR and one of Bowen's BIGGEST FOES. I just wanted to state the simple fact that Kobe thinks Bowen is a fine defender, and that if Bowen has the respect of fellow superstars, he must not be as overrated as you think. But you know what, let me feed your ego. I'm wrong. Your right.
> 
> 
> 
> he has the respect of fellow superstars eh? ray allen, vince carter, kobe bryant and mike finley would disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really? You wouldn't? How bout I post another link.
> 
> http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/columnists/mmonroe/stories/MYSA07.05C.p5c_mike_monroe_column040704.4c6373b.html
> 
> Read Carlisle's comments around the middle of the article. He seems to think of it as a compliment. He even mentions respect. I've continued to show you things to back up my opinion. What have you done? Now, I'm not going to insult your character like you did to me (you accused me of making up those comments about Kobe acknowledging Bruce). I won't stoop that low. However, just so I know. Can you post me a link of Kobe calling Bowen a dirty defender? I've already seen Carter and Allen's comments. I just want to see Kobe's. Again, I'm not implying that you're lying. I just simply want to see the link.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i don't want to register to read that article. i could care less what carlisle thinks. don nelson has gone on record as saying bruce bowen is dirty. what then? who's opinion is more valid?
> 
> and when did i insult your character? did YOU write that article? if not, i have no idea what the hell you're talking about. if so, then it would explain a lot.
> 
> and what exactly have you shown me? some article some kobe-hater WROTE "quoting" kobe? how come i can't find kobe saying that about bowen anywhere else? kobe was frustrated with everyone saying bowen is a kobe-stopper, you really think he'd have something good to say about him. jesus dude, did you even watch basketball during the lakers 3-peat?
> 
> 
> why do you think everyone started wondering whether or not bowen is dirty this season? because respected stars with integrity on the court started calling him out on it. i don't know if kobe ever used the word "dirty" to describe bowen, but he certainly has never had anything good to say about him. this has been well-documented, going back a few years in the playoffs.
> 
> notice how no one calls artest dirty (not this year, at least) and he's a better defender than bowen. why is that?
> 
> that's the same guy that pulled down paul pierce's shorts to distract him, yet he isn't called dirty, and bowen is. why is that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no, you're right. bowen isn't dirty.
Click to expand...


----------



## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> duncan doesn't just stand there, you know. if a player gets around bowen, duncan is there. duncan is probably the best interior defender in the game. how do you think people feel about going up against bruce bowen when they know duncan will be there waiting for them when they get by bowen? if duncan isn't blocking shots, he's intimidating people.


He's not better at it than Jermaine though.


----------



## Tersk

*Re: Okay again LOL... Ron Artest DPOY*



> Originally posted by <b>Pay Ton</b>!
> ESPN just announced it.
> 
> How are they getting this info?


----------



## Pay Ton

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> he has the respect of fellow superstars eh? ray allen, vince carter, kobe bryant and mike finley would disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> i don't want to register to read that article. i could care less what carlisle thinks. don nelson has gone on record as saying bruce bowen is dirty. what then? who's opinion is more valid?


So he doesn't have the respect of superstars? Have all four of those superstars you named clearly said "I don't respect Bruce Bowen."? Because if they just talked about him being dirty, and complained about his play, then they DO respect him. As for the article, here's the quote.



> Artest and Bowen share another trait: Their ability to irritate foes. Both have been involved in numerous incidents with opponents unaccustomed to having their offensive skills negated by their inability to even get their hands on the ball. Some call both of them dirty defenders.
> 
> "It's a show of respect," Carlisle said, "that people complain about both these guys."


Hmm... Now is that not what I have been saying? They comlain about him because they respect him. Ewing and Mourning use to bash each other all the time. Did they respect each other? Hell yes. Your simple mind, however, seems to think that if a player complains about another players style of play, than there's no respect. So what if Nelson complained about Bowen? Don't you think that maybe that means...gasp!... that maybe Nelson respects Bowen too!




> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> and when did i insult your character? did YOU write that article? if not, i have no idea what the hell you're talking about. if so, then it would explain a lot.





> also, please point me to a link where kobe says anything good about bowen. i'd appreciate it.
> 
> don't worry though, i make up things when i'm stuck in an argument too.


There it is. There's your own words. Accusing me of making things up. I gave you a link. I wasn't lying about what I said. Even if the link wasn't valid, that's not my fault. I just posted what I've read. 



> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> and what exactly have you shown me? some article some kobe-hater WROTE "quoting" kobe? how come i can't find kobe saying that about bowen anywhere else? kobe was frustrated with everyone saying bowen is a kobe-stopper, you really think he'd have something good to say about him. jesus dude, did you even watch basketball during the lakers 3-peat?


I've shown you two links. Whether one of them is valid or not, nobody can be sure. However, what have you done? I asked you politely to show me a link on Kobe. Where is it? Stop attacking me, because you are failing. Focus on defending yourself. Yes, I did watch ball during the Lakers three peat, in fact, I've watched even earlier than that. You know there was basketball BEFORE the Lakers were three time champions, don't you?



> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> why do you think everyone started wondering whether or not bowen is dirty this season? because respected stars with integrity on the court started calling him out on it.*i don't know if kobe ever used the word "dirty" to describe bowen* , but he certainly has never had anything good to say about him. this has been well-documented, going back a few years in the playoffs.


LOL. So you're not even sure if Kobe's has called Bruce "dirty". And your whole argument revolves around the fact that by calling Bruce "dirty", Kobe doesn't respect him. Well something is obviously wrong with your reasoning then, isn't it? Ok, well if he doesn't have anything good to say about Bowen, can you at least show me a link so I can read it?



> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> notice how no one calls artest dirty (not this year, at least) and he's a better defender than bowen. why is that?
> 
> that's the same guy that pulled down paul pierce's shorts to distract him, yet he isn't called dirty, and bowen is. why is that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no, you're right. bowen isn't dirty.


Wow! Look at that kick! Anyways, yeah that was a dirty move (even though it wasn't intenional). That doesn't mean he's a dirty PLAYER. Is Kobe a dirty player for punching Reggie Miller? No, he's not. And instead, of showing me a clip that's been overplayed so many times. Why don't you show me a link? I'm asking politely. Please. I just want to see what he had to say that's all.


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## Pay Ton

*Re: Re: Okay again LOL... Ron Artest DPOY*



> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> why the **** do u hafta ruin it, sum ppl wanna find it out for real, sum *edited* did the LBJ23 one n i was pissed, dont write it in here


woah, calm down there guy. I don't know what the hell's the difference between knowing now or later. It's not like it's a supsense movie, where I've told you the ending.


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## Minstrel

*Re: Re: Okay again LOL... Ron Artest DPOY*



> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> 
> 
> why the **** do u hafta ruin it, sum ppl wanna find it out for real, sum *edited: No personal attacks* did the LBJ23 one n i was pissed, dont write it in here


Perhaps you missed noticing, but this is a *basketball message board*. Any information people learn about the game will be posted here.

Please don't be insulting for people using this board as it's intended.


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## madman

*Artest DPOY*

Artest received 476 points (out of a possible 605 points), including 80 of 121 possible first-place votes, from a panel of sportswriters and broadcasters throughout the United States and Canada. Players were awarded five points for each first-place vote, three points for each second-place vote and one point for each third-place vote received. Two-time Defensive Player of the Year Ben Wallace of the Detroit Pistons (2001-02, 2002-03) finished second with 325 points and Portland’s Theo Ratliff finished third with 90 points. 

Runner-up to Wallace for Defensive Player of the Year in 2002-03, Artest averaged career-bests in points (18.3), rebounds (5.3) and assists (3.7) this season. Artest sparked the Pacers to the best record in the league (61-21) by spearheading an aggressive defense that held opponents to 85.6 points per game, third best in the league. 

2003-04 NBA DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR RESULTS 

1st 2nd 3rd Pts 
Ron Artest, 80 20 16 476 
Ben Wallace, 26 61 12 325 
Theo Ratliff, 8 10 20 90 
Bruce Bowen, 4 10 26 76 
Andrei Kirilenko, 2 12 21 67 
Kevin Garnett, 0 7 15 36 
Tim Duncan, 0 1 5 8 
Clifford Robinson, 1 0 0 5 
Kenyon Martin, 0 0 2 2 
James Posey, 0 0 1 1 
Kobe Bryant, 0 0 1 1 
Shaquille O’Neal, 0 0 1 1 
Earl Watson, 0 0 1 1


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## The True Essence

who votes in these things? How did Cliff Robinson get a first place vote? Earl Watson?


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## Petey

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> who votes in these things? How did Cliff Robinson get a first place vote? Earl Watson?


Most likely a guy from California and Denver... showing one of their own some love.

-Petey


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## nmuman

That is an absolute travesty! Anyone that would rather have Artest defensively than Big Ben is smoking some serious $hit!


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## Nevus

I thought Kirilenko would get more votes.


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## cjtownjc

cliffy is widely regarded around the league as one of the best defensive players. kg himself called him the best defender. as for watson, he doesn't get a lot of pub because he plays in memphis and is a bench player, but he's a very tough defender. despite his small stature he's a pest on defense.


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## Tersk

*Re: Artest DPOY*



> Originally posted by <b>madman</b>!
> 2003-04 NBA DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR RESULTS
> 
> 1st 2nd 3rd Pts
> Ron Artest, 80 20 16 476
> Ben Wallace, 26 61 12 325
> Theo Ratliff, 8  10 20 90
> Bruce Bowen, 4 10 26 76
> Andrei Kirilenko, 2 12 21 67
> Kevin Garnett, 0 7 15 36
> Tim Duncan, 0 1 5 8
> Clifford Robinson, 1 0 0 5
> Kenyon Martin, 0 0 2 2
> James Posey, 0 0 1 1
> Kobe Bryant, 0 0 1 1
> Shaquille O’Neal, 0 0 1 1
> Earl Watson, 0 0 1 1


MY top 6 list

Ben Wallace
AK47
Artest
Ratliff
KG
Bowen


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## Pay Ton

> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> 
> 
> Most likely a guy from California and Denver... showing one of their own some love.
> 
> -Petey


Are you thinking of Earl Boykins? Doesn't Earl Watson play in Memphis?


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## Peja

Great to hear that. He deserved it.


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## Pacers Fan

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> That is an absolute travesty! Anyone that would rather have Artest defensively than Big Ben is smoking some serious $hit!


I don't smoke ****, so then what am i smoking? Knowledge. I'd rather have Artest than Ben Wallace.:grinning:


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## nmuman

Artest is a solid defender. No argument there. However, so is Ben. As for which of them is better, well, that's an argument that is very subjective. So, how to decide then? Well Ben was 2nd in the league in rebounds, 2nd in the league in blocked shots, and 7th in steals. Artest was 3rd in steals. Yep, that's it. So, while Ben finished top 10 in all three defensive categories, Artest only finished top 10 in one of them. What else did Artest finish tops in that got him the award? Public relations. The bottom line is Ben got robbed. This award should have been his hands down, and I hope he holds a grudge if these teams should meet later in the Playoffs.


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## MLKG

This was a fashion pick this year.

Rick Carlisle and Ron Artest campaigned for this award pretty heavily and ended up getting it. I just find it funny how they had to resort to digging through hours upon hours of film to attempt to find justification for the award. I find it equally funny how these voting writers ate up everything Rick gave them when, for all we know, he could have completely made up those stats he was sending around. Nobody is going to go through the tapes and call him on it. I'm not saying he made them up, but I seriously question the integrity of these statistics. Even if they are completely legit and Artest's campaign team was completely unbiased in recording the results, there is still the rather large matter of these stats having absolutly NO basis of comparison.

In my mind there is no question that Ben Wallace has the greatest defensive impact of any player in the league. In fact, it's not even close.

Great job Ron, you are a great perimeter defender, but you don't even come close to affecting a game the way Ben Wallace does. 

I'm just surprised that this isn't blatantly obvious to anyone who has ever watched Ben Wallace play.

Imagine if Ben averaged 18 points a game like Artest does, he would be top 3 in MVP voting every year.


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## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't smoke ****, so then what am i smoking? Knowledge. I'd rather have Artest than Ben Wallace.:grinning:


i would too... along with being the best perimeter defender in the game, artest actually shows up on the offensive end too. and quite effectively, i might add.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> artest actually shows up on the offensive end too.


Ben was averaging a double double before Sheed came, he also scored 17 points in Detroit's first playoff game- more than anyone on Milwaukee's team.

No, he's not as good an offensive player as Artest. But he has actually been an above average offensive player compared to other centers around the league.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> Imagine if Ben averaged 18 points a game like Artest does, he would be top 3 in MVP voting every year.


And if you took Ben Wallace, improved his man defense a lot, enabled him to defend any position, had him average about 24 points a game as well as 4 assists per game, you'd have Kevin Garnett.  

Garnett is a far superior defender but seemingly gets no true consideration on the rationale that truly great all-around players should be ranked behind players known mostly for defense...regardless of who is actually better on defense.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> Garnett is a far superior defender


Than Ben Wallace? Please. I think Kevin is the best player in the league, but there is just no way in hell he is a better defensive player than Ben.

I remember hearing from Blazers fans how Sheed was a better defender than Ben too. Watching them play side by side, Sheed is a great defender, but Ben is still clearly better.

Ben's man to man defense is very good. This misconception that all he does is block shots seems to get bigger and bigger every year.


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## RP McMurphy

*Way to go, Ron!*


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> I remember hearing from Blazers fans how Sheed was a better defender than Ben too. Watching them play side by side, Sheed is a great defender, but Ben is still clearly better.


Rasheed is *far* better as an individual post defender. He's even defended Shaq capably in a playoff series. Ben Wallace would be *killed* as a primary defender of Shaq.

Ben Wallace is a better weak-side shot-blocker, but Rasheed Wallace is still a very good team defender, minimizing Ben Wallace's advantage there.

And Kevin Garnett is even better than Rasheed Wallace, as he can defend every position, while Wallace can only defend 3-5 and Ben Wallace can only defend 4 (and non-elite 5s).



> Ben's man to man defense is very good. This misconception that all he does is block shots seems to get bigger and bigger every year.


That's because it's not a misconception. Wallace is not a top-tier individual defender. He's not a bad individual defender, but there are various players superior to him in that regard.

This is why Rasheed Wallace upgraded the Pistons' defense hugely: he gave the Pistons what they didn't have already, a shut-down post defender. Rasheed Wallace is the reason the Pistons have some credibility in a possible Finals...they have someone who can defend elite power forwards or Shaq in Rasheed, with Ben Wallace as a weak-side help defender.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Rasheed is *far* better as an individual post defender. He's even defended Shaq capably in a playoff series. Ben Wallace would be *killed* as a primary defender of Shaq.


I agree Sheed is better individually, but I wouldn't use the word 'far', and I definately wouldn't put it in bold.



> Ben Wallace is a better weak-side shot-blocker, but Rasheed Wallace is still a very good team defender, minimizing Ben Wallace's advantage there.


Ben is just as good a man defender as Sheed is help side. Both are very capable at doing each. Remember, even before Sheed came to Detroit, when Ben was paired with Okur who is a below average defender- they still had a top 5 defense in the league, and that was with Ben guarding the opposing teams best post player man up every night. It's no secret he is more effective when he can come help side to block shots, play the passing lanes, and trap guys. But he is still every bit as good as a guy like Kenyon Martin man to man.

Ben is perhaps the most active defender in the league. If a guy gets the ball down low on him, there usually isn't a lot he can do because of his size disadvantage. But he is excellent at denying guys the ball, and does a very good job of preventing people from ever getting the ball in good position to score.

And being a help defender means more than just blocking shots. He took 5 or 6 charges against Milwaukee yesterday, and was constantly harassing outlet passes to facilitate the press and prevent the Bucks from running.



> And Kevin Garnett is even better than Rasheed Wallace, as he can defend every position, while Wallace can only defend 3-5 and Ben Wallace can only defend 4 (and non-elite 5s).


That's nice and everything, but who really cares? Both Ben and Sheed can cover swing men well enough not to be hurt on pick and roll switches, that's all you really need. Garnett may be able to run around with 2 guards, but why would he ever want to? He's still going to loose something when he steps out on guards and being a force in the middle is far more valuable than being a force on the perimeter. KG is the most versatile defender in the league, but versatile doesn't necessarily mean best.

It's like if a guy can shoot 30% 3's out to 35 feet. It's real nice and impressive and all, but it's kind of pointless.



> This is why Rasheed Wallace upgraded the Pistons' defense hugely: he gave the Pistons what they didn't have already, a shut-down post defender. Rasheed Wallace is the reason the Pistons have some credibility in a possible Finals...they have someone who can defend elite power forwards or Shaq in Rasheed, with Ben Wallace as a weak-side help defender.


Sheed has helped the Pistons defense about as much as one player could. But when talking about what has made their defense so special since the trade deadline, you can't ignore what Lindsey Hunter and Mike James have done. Just look at the Milwaukee game, the Bucks were playing Detroit pretty tight until those two got in the game, and then they just started forcing a flood of turnovers and literally ran away with the game.

Sheed has been huge, but he isn't the only addition Detroit's made to their defense in the past month and a half.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> That's nice and everything, but who really cares? Both Ben and Sheed can cover swing men well enough not to be hurt on pick and roll switches, that's all you really need. Garnett may be able to run around with 2 guards, but why would he ever want to? He's still going to loose something when he steps out on guards


Except you're wrong on that. Tracy McGrady has been quoted as saying the defender who gives him the most trouble is Kevin Garnett.

It doesn't get any better for guards than McGrady, so if Kevin Garnett is capable of bothering elite guards of that caliber, it's clearly of *huge* value and dismissing it as essentially worthless doesn't make sense.


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## MLKG

But if Garnett is guarding McGrady who is guarding Garnett's guy? If a 4 is matching up on a 2 or 3 that means a 2 or 3 has to be matching up on a 4. It doesn't really matter when playing Orlando because the team is so terribly put together, but against real teams Garnett is forced to spend the majority of his minutes guarding big guys because that is where it is most needed and most valuable.

For example, when Minnesota plays the Lakers, Garnett can't just go off and guard Kobe, no matter how effectively he could do so, beause he is needed a lot more in the middle. 

Back to the previous example, it's great to be able to hit 35 footers with semi-consistancy, it stretches the defense like crazy, but there are a lot more usefull things you can be doing with your time than shooting 35 footers- so it kind of negates that skill because in most situations, it just isn't practical to do.

It's good to have the versatility, but at the same time, unless you can clone 5 Garnett's, it's practical use is limited.


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## Petey

> Originally posted by <b>Pay Ton</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you thinking of Earl Boykins? Doesn't Earl Watson play in Memphis?


Yup yup, my bad, sorry.

-Petey


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> But if Garnett is guarding McGrady who is guarding Garnett's guy?


Who cares? You're saying who matches up with Gooden worries you more than playing great defense on McGrady, when up against Orlando?

The point is Garnett has the ability to drop some great defense on whoever's the other team's best player. Ben Wallace can't.



> If a 4 is matching up on a 2 or 3 that means a 2 or 3 has to be matching up on a 4.


If a team only had 5 players, yes. Or you could put your backup power forward in the game to defend the other team's power forward.

The point is, he gives you *options*. If the you're playing the Spurs, you want Garnett defending Tim Duncan. If you're playing a team with a great guard, well, you won't have KG guarding the guard all game long, but he can do it during key moments, when that guard can have big effect.



> For example, when Minnesota plays the Lakers, Garnett can't just go off and guard Kobe, no matter how effectively he could do so, beause he is needed a lot more in the middle.


All you're really saying here is that Garnett can't clone himself and defend multiple people. True. Against a team with good players at every position, his versatility is less valuable. But against a team with a great power player, he can defend that power player. If playing a team with a great guard and no great power player, he can harrass the guard. 

That's *obviously* a big positive. Wallace is not as useful against teams with a great guard.



> It's good to have the versatility, but at the same time, unless you can clone 5 Garnett's, it's practical use is limited.


Only in certain situations, like the Lakers, who have two good power players and two good guards. Most teams are not like that, and Garnett can impact the game more by defending the other team's best player in crucial situations, whether that's a center, power forward, small forward, shooting guard or point guard, whereas Ben Wallace cannot do that.


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## OZZY

Artest is a amazing defender

But what about *Kevin Garnett*?


19th in Steals
1st in defensive rebounds
1st in rebounds per game
1st in total rebounds
9th in blocks

Averages 2.17 bpg (highest in his career) 13.90 rpg (highest in his career) and only 2.50 fouls per game.


Oh and the best scorer in the league Tracy McGrady says KG is the hardest person he ever went up against.


Should he have won? Who knows, but no way should be not even be in the top 3.

I guess rebounding is not defense though, even though without rebounding you would be on defense all game long. 



Again Artest is wonderful and should have won considering last years bull**** with Kobe Bryant. But KG should be top 3.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> That's *obviously* a big positive. Wallace is not as useful against teams with a great guard.
> 
> Only in certain situations, like the Lakers, who have two good power players and two good guards. Most teams are not like that, and Garnett can impact the game more by defending the other team's best player in crucial situations, whether that's a center, power forward, small forward, shooting guard or point guard, whereas Ben Wallace cannot do that.


I disagree with this because a great team defender like Ben Wallace IS usefull and effective against great guards, even if he's not checking them 1 on 1. Ben takes away the paint from opposing guards, he forces them to become jump shooters which limits their game a lot. Take away a lot of these superstar guards ability to drive inside and get to the free throw line, and they turn into very manageable players.

The other thing a great team and helpside defender does is establish a great deal of trust with teammates. Billups, Hamilton, and Prince are able to severely overplay their man because there is so much trust that Ben will be their to save them if they get beat. 

So while he is not directly covering guards, he takes away their inside game, and when that happens, life on the perimeter gets a lot harder as well.

Kevin Garnett's versatility to check swing men is impressive. But he is much better served to stay in the paint and let Hassle and Sprewell handle the perimiter D.

Just like a great point guard like Jason Kidd can make everybody better on offense. A great center can make make everybody better on defense. Look at Rip Hamilton. In Washington he was considered a major defensive liability. But since he started playing with Ben Wallace, he's actually looked like an above average defender.

Ben changes games with his defense more than anybody in the league. He won the award two years in a row, and then went on to have the best season of his career this year, but could barely get any first place votes. It doesn't make any sense from a consistancy standpoint.

Every 6 or 7 years they like to give the DPOY to a perimeter defender as a sort of life time achievement award. It's almost like they get it in their mind that they won't be giving it to a big man that year, no matter the season they have. Perfect example is Gary Payton in 96'. He was a great perimeter defender and had a great year, but Deke averaged 12 boards and 4.5 blocks that year- the best season of his career, and there was no way he shouldn't have won the award. Then his next 2 seasons in Atlanta are the worst since his rookie year, but somehow he wins the award in both of those.

Giving it to a perimeter defender seems to be something they just do every once in awhile when they get board with the big guys as a one time deal sort of thing. Artest didn't really do anything this year that he didn't do last year defensively, yet this year he is DPOY and last year he wasn't even 1st team? I think a lot of guys had it in their mind that they would vote for Artest even before the season started.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Artest is a amazing defender
> 
> But what about *Kevin Garnett*?
> 
> 
> 19th in Steals
> 1st in defensive rebounds
> 1st in rebounds per game
> 1st in total rebounds
> 9th in blocks
> 
> Averages 2.17 bpg (highest in his career) 13.90 rpg (highest in his career) and only 2.50 fouls per game.


Ben Wallace

7th in steals
2nd in rebounds
2nd in blocks
2.00 fouls a game

Garnett's a great defender and an amazing player, but I would still put him behind Wallace, Artest, Kirilenko, and Duncan.


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## OZZY

Maybe behind Artest and Wallace but that *is it!*

Kirilenko and Duncan have nothing, absolutely nothing against KG.


P.S. Why is Big Ben behind KG in rebounding? Heck its not like he is using his energy on offense. I know Big Ben is great but still why doesn't he lead the league in rebounding?


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## Spriggan

heh, KG is a much better defender than kirilenko. it's not even close.


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## nmuman

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. Why is Big Ben behind KG in rebounding? Heck its not like he is using his energy on offense. I know Big Ben is great but still why doesn't he lead the league in rebounding?


Two guys named Rasheed and Memo


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## Yyzlin

http://82games.com/03DET14C.HTM

Look at the the opposition's numbers against Wallace. He is not a good man-to- man defender. Here are Garnett's and Duncan's numbers in comparison. 

http://82games.com/03MIN12C.HTM - Garnett
http://82games.com/03SAS15C.HTM - Duncan


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## PacersguyUSA

> Rick Carlisle and Ron Artest campaigned for this award pretty heavily and ended up getting it. I just find it funny how they had to resort to digging through hours upon hours of film to attempt to find justification for the award.



Remeber how Carlisle has the reputation of not getting along with his players? Did you ever stop to think that Carlisle is not doing this to "justify" anything, but he just want to have a good relationship with his player?

I guess you're just a pessimist, or a huge Piston's homer, likely the latter.


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