# T-Mac...isn't a leader yet?????



## tone wone

this is my boy, but I come to the conclusion that he isn't a leader yet or (is still learning how to lead)......

..lets go back to the beginning of '00-'01 season......when they Had Hill and Tmac.....Tracy wasn't expected to carry this team...no one in their wildest dreams saw being the leader either, hell he was just getting started......but Hill never recovered and the whole francise was thrown into Tmac's lap.....

.....shortly after, the whole got to see how this youngster is and could be......but you gotta think this whole leader thing never really entered Tmacs mind when he signed on the dotted line

.....I say this because (I dont want to start a Kobe vs. Tmac bull)
look at Kobe when I see him I see a cat that has groomed himself to the "man" somewhere......

I dont tracy wanted that...because if he did he would've signed with the Bulls instead of the Magic....remember not only did they sign Hill along with Tmac.....they were very close to getting Duncan as well


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## Johnny Mac

He has a tendency to not be aggressive enough in getting the ball in his hands during certain stretches of the game. Thats my only bone to pick with him. Hes been the most clutch player in the league this year without question.


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## rainman

i'll take the good with the bad with mcgrady.he just doesnt have a good supporting cast there,they had a little something going with him and miller along with darrell armstrong but they proceded to break that group up.here's the real question.do they look to move t-mac now before he leaves on his own or do you try to build around him?matching salaries limits your ability to get a good deal for a guy but i would move him.i dont think he would buy into drafting a young kid to rebuild with him.that could take a few years more than he would like.what could you get for him?i think a taker could be an underachieving team like the bulls.i would think a deal for a tyson chandler and maybe a jamal crawford or a kirk hinrich may be a good deal for both sides,of course filler may have to be added to make the numbers work but what do you have to lose on either side.if he walks you get nothing.


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## Johnny Mac

I agree^^

I would love to have Tmac in Chicago, and would be willing to deal Fizer/Curry/JC for it. That would give the Magic a solid PG ready to break out, a 4/5 combo in fizer and Curry and they would still have a top 3 draft pick most likely. That is much more balanced and very talented. Bulls would solve some of the confusion on who should start and they'd have the primetime player they've been missing.


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## rainman

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> I agree^^
> 
> I would love to have Tmac in Chicago, and would be willing to deal Fizer/Curry/JC for it. That would give the Magic a solid PG ready to break out, a 4/5 combo in fizer and Curry and they would still have a top 3 draft pick most likely. That is much more balanced and very talented. Bulls would solve some of the confusion on who should start and they'd have the primetime player they've been missing.


i know you have a handle on the bulls,do you think they would want to part with chandler or curry,who is the more expendable?


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## Fromthasouth

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> He has a tendency to not be aggressive enough in getting the ball in his hands during certain stretches of the game. Thats my only bone to pick with him. Hes been the most clutch player in the league this year without question.


How has he been the most clutch guy in theleague?? What are you talkin about, theyve lost 11 in a row. I thought clutch meant coming through under pressure LAY OFF THE BOOZE MAN!! The only win they have is beating the Knicks,they are 0 - 7 against the West and 5 of those teams from the west werent even in the playoffs last year :laugh: Wait til the kings and the other good teams get a hold of this soft team.!!


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Fromthasouth</b>!
> How has he been the most clutch guy in theleague?? What are you talkin about, theyve lost 11 in a row. I thought clutch meant coming through under pressure LAY OFF THE BOOZE MAN!! The only win they have is beating the Knicks,they are 0 - 7 against the West and 5 of those teams from the west werent even in the playoffs last year :laugh: Wait til the kings and the other good teams get a hold of this soft team.!!


Coming through under pressure is what Tmac has done. He hit two huge shots against the knicks, three huge shots against the nuggets, three huge shots against the clippers, and two clutch shots against the suns. All in the final 4 minutes of the 4th quarter in each game. That is not coming through?


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## Fromthasouth

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Coming through under pressure is what Tmac has done. He hit two huge shots against the knicks, three huge shots against the nuggets, three huge shots against the clippers, and two clutch shots against the suns. All in the final 4 minutes of the 4th quarter in each game. That is not coming through?


Tracys fg% is down offensive and defensive rebounds down, steals are down, turnovers are up, points are way down, The magic are 1 - 10 and ( including the postseason like 2 - 19, which Tracy shot maybe 35% in) .. i think its kind of conicedental??


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Fromthasouth</b>!
> Tracys fg% is down offensive and defensive rebounds down, steals are down, turnovers are up, points are way down, The magic are 1 - 10 and ( including the postseason like 2 - 19, which Tracy shot maybe 35% in) .. i think its kind of conicedental??


We got 2 threads goin here, haha. Okay I'm not talking about his overall performance this year, I'm talking about down the stretch in games. I've seen 4 games this year where he just started draining jumpers and finding open teammates with ease in the final 2-3 minutes. If thats not clutch, I dont know what it is. Hes putting his team in a position to win, coming through in the clutch but his teammates just are not following.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>t_blazer03'</b>!
> this is my boy, but I come to the conclusion that he isn't a leader yet or (is still learning how to lead)......


He still doesn't have good enough teammates to make the Magic a great team, which would magically add leadership to McGrady in people's perception.

Jordan really didn't change his mindset a whole lot except being willing to get his teammates involved, which T-Mac also does. However, Jordan was also called a "scorer but not a leader" until Pippen showed up and the Bulls became a top team.

The simple fact is that most people really don't know how to find or evaluate leadership. So they go for the only three things they can see: *A.* talent, *B.* outspoken attitude, and *C.* *winning*.

Take an uber-talented player and give him the attitude, but a horrible team. What is his label? "Mouthy" not "leader."

Add him to a great team that wins the next seven championships and the *same* guy is the greatest leader in the game, and it's blasphemy to say otherwise.

Take that same player, leave him on the great team, but take away the outspoken attitude, and now he's just a talented part of the team, but not a leader.

None of us know what the stars are saying in the locker room, what they're saying or teaching in practice, whether they're calling guys in the off-season to keep them honing their skills. Or how involved they are in keeping guys spirits up.

In other words, we don't know who shows *real* leadership. So, many people try to invent such knowledge from incredibly superficial indicators, like winning. I.e. if the team doesn't win, clearly no one can be showing any leadership...otherwise, they'd win, talent irregardless.

I think such indirect and imprecise measures are a bad idea.


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## Johnny Mac

*Re: Re: T-Mac...isn't a leader yet?????*



> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> He still doesn't have good enough teammates to make the Magic a great team, which would magically add leadership to McGrady in people's perception.
> 
> Jordan really didn't change his mindset a whole lot except being willing to get his teammates involved, which T-Mac also does. However, Jordan was also called a "scorer but not a leader" until Pippen showed up and the Bulls became a top team.
> 
> The simple fact is that most people really don't know how to find or evaluate leadership. So they go for the only three things they can see: *A.* talent, *B.* outspoken attitude, and *C.* *winning*.
> 
> Take an uber-talented player and give him the attitude, but a horrible team. What is his label? "Mouthy" not "leader."
> 
> Add him to a great team that wins the next seven championships and the *same* guy is the greatest leader in the game, and it's blasphemy to say otherwise.
> 
> Take that same player, leave him on the great team, but take away the outspoken attitude, and now he's just a talented part of the team, but not a leader.
> 
> None of us know what the stars are saying in the locker room, what they're saying or teaching in practice, whether they're calling guys in the off-season to keep them honing their skills. Or how involved they are in keeping guys spirits up.
> 
> In other words, we don't know who shows *real* leadership. So, many people try to invent such knowledge from incredibly superficial indicators, like winning. I.e. if the team doesn't win, clearly no one can be showing any leadership...otherwise, they'd win, talent irregardless.
> 
> I think such indirect and imprecise measures are a bad idea.


EXACTLY. We win.


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## IV

Tracy should never have refuted John Thompson's interview the other night. A lot of what Coach said is true. Tmac is to defensive. If he would just internalize these comments, and learn from them or prove everyone wrong through his play, he would mature into the leader they need in Orlando.


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## jokeaward

He's a leader. To an extent. Who else do they want taking shots? Garrity? Gooden? Please. And it's not like Ricky Davis or Z being a go-to guy on a 17 win team. They were decent and almost advanced in the playoffs.

He obviously thinks about his teammates. He isn't a selfish slouch for assists.

If they win, he'll lead them by sometimes going on his own runs and also playing good D.

Maybe OT: Gasol is the best Grizz, but he's not necessarily a leader at all. I don't really know, but I doubt it. The Magic can rally around T-Mac, or at least they're supposed to be able to. They aren't that good, though.


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## Fromthasouth

so it was tracy who led them to the playoffs? But its his teammates that have led them to this god awful record.. i see where your coming from !


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## jazzy1

Tmac is a baby, he's a joke he Came to Orlando because he wanted to be the man on his own team niow he's feeling sorry for himself and whining about it. What Coach thompson said I've been saying for years now its just coming to fruition is all. 

Tmac needs to SHUT UP and play ball. Score 50 every night if he has to and carry the team. He's not in management and can't worry about what the team doesn't have. He has to do his job . 

He's getting caught up in things he can't control we all understand that his team is crappy but let others say that for you. Don't devalue your team or coach make them feel better about themselves by remaining positive. 

Last nights game against the Suns Tmac was playing like he had quit trying hard. 

He has to realize that no reasonable person is gonna hold him responsible for the teams failures if he lays it on the line and plays hard. 

I think Tmac is a great great player but mentally he's very immature. 

.*THIS IS WHY THESE STRAIGHT TO PRO'S GUYS NEED TO ATTEND COLLEGE.* .


Kobe, Tmac, KG , are all sufferiing with theiir immaturity KG was whining about the same things when Barkley talked about him last season. Going to college humbles guys and lets you mature alittle before entering the adult world so why physically they're capable of playing in the NBA mentally they aren't even close.


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> *THIS IS WHY THESE STRAIGHT TO PRO'S GUYS NEED TO ATTEND COLLEGE.* .


I agree, I made a thread about that awhile back and people completely laughed it off. 

I said 3 of the best 5 players in the NBA came straight from HS, but ALL of them suffer from lack of leadership in one way or another. And people just said oh Kobe has titles, KG doesnt have a good team and Tmac doesnt have the talent around him. 

I see Pierce, Iverson, Duncan, Kidd all showing great leadership qualities even though they are not as talented as KG, Kobe and Tmac. They all went to school for a couple years or more.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> I see Pierce, Iverson, Duncan, Kidd all showing great leadership qualities even though they are not as talented as KG, Kobe and Tmac. They all went to school for a couple years or more.


Oh, I don't know that I'd give Iverson the maturity/leadership edge on any of the players being discussed here. Blowing off practices, feuding with your head coach, etc. Those don't make me think "brilliant leader."

Ivy definitely has great heart and toughness. But he can be knocked for leadership if KG, McGrady and Bryant can be.


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## Fromthasouth

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Tmac is a baby, he's a joke he Came to Orlando because he wanted to be the man on his own team niow he's feeling sorry for himself and whining about it. What Coach thompson said I've been saying for years now its just coming to fruition is all.
> 
> Tmac needs to SHUT UP and play ball. Score 50 every night if he has to and carry the team. He's not in management and can't worry about what the team doesn't have. He has to do his job .
> 
> He's getting caught up in things he can't control we all understand that his team is crappy but let others say that for you. Don't devalue your team or coach make them feel better about themselves by remaining positive.
> 
> Last nights game against the Suns Tmac was playing like he had quit trying hard.


Post of the year!!!


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## Fromthasouth

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh, I don't know that I'd give Iverson the maturity/leadership edge on any of the players being discussed here. Blowing off practices, feuding with your head coach, etc. Those don't make me think "brilliant leader."
> 
> Ivy definitely has great heart and toughness. But he can be knocked for leadership if KG, McGrady and Bryant can be.


So kobe isnt a leader becuz he had relations with another girl?? Im guessing Michael Jordan wasnt then either?? Magic ?? Hell even our president!!! Kobe just has an odd personality, he likes to do things alone, instead of goin to strip clubs etc, kobe would rather be doin other things, no biggie!!


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## jokeaward

Ahh, yes, the magical college system. Kenyon Martin's such a great leader. Glenn Robinson, too.


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## Fromthasouth

Dont forget Jalen Rose.. Hes proven that he is a true leader..


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## Johnny Mac

Its unfair to say players dont have leadership if they dont have enough talent to be a leader (Rose, Grob, Martin). But KG, Tmac and Kobe have unlimited talent yet have been questioned on their leadership. I think college builds discipline and leadership skills that a lot of these high school kids arent getting by riding the pine for a couple years in the NBA.


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## Fromthasouth

Why isnt kobe a leader?? what has he done?? Please explain it, the 2 guys who havent lead their team would be KG and TMAC, and at least KG doesnt complain about it


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## Johnny Mac

edit - not worth it.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Fromthasouth</b>!
> 
> So kobe isnt a leader becuz he had relations with another girl?? Im guessing Michael Jordan wasnt then either?? Magic ?? Hell even our president!!! Kobe just has an odd personality, he likes to do things alone, instead of goin to strip clubs etc, kobe would rather be doin other things, no biggie!!


What the heck are you talking about? I never said anything about Kobe Bryant being a leader or not, nor did I make a single reference to his rape case.

I said that if Bryant, McGrady and KG can be knocked for lack of leadership, so can Iverson.

My post was about Iverson, entirely. Your response was utterly bizarre...it had nothing whatever to do with what I said.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Tmac is a baby, he's a joke he Came to Orlando because he wanted to be the man on his own team niow he's feeling sorry for himself and whining about it. What Coach thompson said I've been saying for years now its just coming to fruition is all.


The whole "Tmac left because he wanted to be the man" argument is so unfounded. Tmac left because he wanted to go home, he got a max contract offer (in a state with no income tax mind you) and because he was going to get the opportunity to play with Grant Hill and possibly even Tim Duncan.

You think honestly Tmac was going to Orlando with the mindset he was going to be the man right away with Grant Hill on the team?

Raptors were not powerhouse team themselves and although Vince and Tmac are friends, they have never been as close as some seem to believe.





> Tmac needs to SHUT UP and play ball. Score 50 every night if he has to and carry the team. He's not in management and can't worry about what the team doesn't have. He has to do his job .


He did score 50 and the team still couldn't win. Management has made the team younger and less experienced every season. Dealing with that and the Grant Hill situation, Tmac has every right to be frustrated.




> He's getting caught up in things he can't control we all understand that his team is crappy but let others say that for you. Don't devalue your team or coach make them feel better about themselves by remaining positive.


Tmac has not de-valued his team or teammates. Tmac has been known as a great teammate since he came to Orlando and has always gotten along with his teammates.




> Last nights game against the Suns Tmac was playing like he had quit trying hard.
> 
> He has to realize that no reasonable person is gonna hold him responsible for the teams failures if he lays it on the line and plays hard.
> 
> I think Tmac is a great great player but mentally he's very immature.


Tmac never looks like he is playing hard, that is just the way he plays. That is why everyone is always saying he is lazy and this and that because of his demeanor. Tmac didn't have a chance to do a lot last night because it was obvious that Phoenix was going to make the others guys beat them. Go back and watch the tape and see how many times his teammates blew easy plays he created. 


Tmac is struggling, no doubt (and still getting 25 ppg) and the whole team is struggling. Now it is everyone's chance to jump on his case ... which is expected. He'll bounce back, no doubt.


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## Fromthasouth

The Magic suck!!


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Fromthasouth</b>!
> The Magic suck!!


What a revelation .. good for you.


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## shobe42

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> Tmac has not de-valued his team or teammates. Tmac has been known as a great teammate since he came to Orlando and has always gotten along with his teammates.


dont make things up.

after baron davis schooled tmac in there playoff series 2 years ago.

tmac said "hes not a better player than me. look at my teammates and look at his."

if thats not devaluing his teamates wat is?


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## The MAgiC

> Originally posted by <b>Fromthasouth</b>!
> The Magic suck!!


What extraordinary maturity! Grizzo, anyone? 

And I agree with Dee Bo. If you are going to say T-Mac came to Orlando to be "the man", or that he's responsible for his team playing horribly, don't even bother posting because you obviously don't know what you're talking about and are just like the other haters that spew their filth on this board.


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## Mattsanity

T-mac's the leader in possessions, but he isn't the leader in desire and determination period


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## Mulk

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> T-mac's the leader in possessions, but he isn't the leader in desire and determination period


And you know this how? He plays in a lazy way, he talks in a lazy way, that is just the way he is, laid back. If he lacked determination and desire he wouldn't be a top 5 player, he wouldn't improve his game and body each year and there is no way in hell he would have been able to average 32 points a game last year on good shooting if he lacked desire and determination every game.


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## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>Mulk</b>!
> 
> 
> And you know this how? He plays in a lazy way, he talks in a lazy way, that is just the way he is, laid back. If he lacked determination and desire he wouldn't be a top 5 player, he wouldn't improve his game and body each year and there is no way in hell he would have been able to average 32 points a game last year on good shooting if he lacked desire and determination every game.


What are you talking about? His desire and determination has nothing to do with him averaging 32 PPG last season and being a top 5 player. I'm talking about the lack of poise to win a game and he doesn't have the poise a.k.a. desire and determination to win a game. Look who's 1-11? Oh well, that officially makes him have no desire and determination.


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## Idunkonyou

> Originally posted by <b>Fromthasouth</b>!
> 
> 
> Post of the year!!!


More like joke of the year. McGrady knew full well coming to Orlando that Hill would be the man.


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## Idunkonyou

I also find it funny when the haters call McGrady a selfish player. He averages 6 assists per game, at the SG spot, on the worst shooting team in the league. 

From what I have seen this year, McGrady isn't selfish enough. 

The only thing that really bothers me about McGrady is that it seems he has lost a lot of that cocky attitude that made him a great player. He needs to get that back and in a hurry.


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## Fromthasouth

With the first pick in the draft the Orlando Magic select..


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## Idunkonyou

> Originally posted by <b>Fromthasouth</b>!
> With the first pick in the draft the Orlando Magic select..


Hopefully they will get the 1st pick. More talent to surround McGrady would be great.


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## jokeaward

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> 
> What are you talking about? His desire and determination has nothing to do with him averaging 32 PPG last season and being a top 5 player. I'm talking about the lack of poise to win a game and he doesn't have the poise a.k.a. desire and determination to win a game. Look who's 1-11? Oh well, that officially makes him have no desire and determination.


They won 40 last year. So they were just 40 flukes?


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## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> 
> 
> What extraordinary maturity! Grizzo, anyone?


Ohhh maan.. I didn't even think of that.. You are right maybe. Can an admin trace his IPs and see where both Grizzo was from and where fromthasouth is from?

Back on topic though,

How can you blame Mcgrady for not being able to lead a team who can't run simple plays and miss wide open layups and shots while he is being double teamed? A team that only 3 out of 5 people play true defense while the youngins just let the offense fly by them or the magic players leave a guy on the wing wideee open for the 3..... It must be frustrating when you are doing all the work on the team and the team isn't doing simple things that make the game count.. And then why even bring Kobe into this? He is not a leader, he is just incredibly atheletic and an amazing player with 3 allstars around him. Last year he had Shaq as well, the most dominant player in the league and SHAQ even said to him "This is MY team" which is so true... We won't know if Kobe can lead a team or not but when Shaq was out last season, he Kobe sure led his team 


Also, on the news T-mac said he is going to stay in orlando for 5 years, if the management doesn't get him what they need to go to the ECC, he may opt out..


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> 
> What are you talking about? His desire and determination has nothing to do with him averaging 32 PPG last season and being a top 5 player. I'm talking about the lack of poise to win a game and he doesn't have the poise a.k.a. desire and determination to win a game. Look who's 1-11? Oh well, that officially makes him have no desire and determination.


First off, desire and determination has nothing to do at all with poise. They are completely different things even though you are tryig to relate them.

Second, who are you to question Tmac's desire and/or determination? Desire and determination have nothing to do with him averaging 32 ppg last season? How about the desire and determination to improve his body and work on his game over the summer? You act as though 32 ppg scoring is no big feat. And Orlando needed every bit of that 32 ppg to have the record they had.


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## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> First off, desire and determination has nothing to do at all with poise. They are completely different things even though you are tryig to relate them.
> 
> Second, who are you to question Tmac's desire and/or determination? Desire and determination have nothing to do with him averaging 32 ppg last season? How about the desire and determination to improve his body and work on his game over the summer? You act as though 32 ppg scoring is no big feat. And Orlando needed every bit of that 32 ppg to have the record they had.


I'm getting tired of these threads.. I think I'm not going to respond to them anymore because all the posters say the exact same thing and they dont even KNOW him. I don't KNOW him.. All I know is that he plays hard every night and is frustrated at the losses when he is doing his part. If every player on the magic did THEIR part, the magic would be winning most of the games... He has a DESIRE to win, he knows he wants to have a ring by the time he retires but with what Gabe has given him to work with so far..things are looking bad... I really think they should have brought someone else other than Howard....


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## shobe42

IS EVERBODY JUST GOING TO IGNORE ME:

quote: 
Originally posted by Dee Bo!
Tmac has not de-valued his team or teammates. Tmac has been known as a great teammate since he came to Orlando and has always gotten along with his teammates.



dont make things up.

after baron davis schooled tmac in there playoff series 2 years ago.

tmac said "hes not a better player than me. look at my teammates and look at his."

if thats not devaluing his teamates wat is?


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## Dre

We can't use that against him two years later. That was almost a completely different set of teammates. He could've matured since then, he could be encouraging all his teammates for all we know. But we don't. But I can say he doesn't make his teammates better on the court. He scores his points, but he doesn't really try to get his teammates involved.


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## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>dre1218us</b>!
> We can't use that against him two years later. That was almost a completely different set of teammates. He could've matured since then, he could be encouraging all his teammates for all we know. But we don't. But I can say he doesn't make his teammates better on the court. He scores his points, but he doesn't really try to get his teammates involved.


Posts like this are the only reason I'm replying.

You are a straight up LIAR. You have never watched a Magic game in your life. 

How many times do I have to say it... He is passing up the ball more this season than ever and his teammates are missing the shots.. He isn't... Mac isn't going for scoring title this year, he's going for the ECC and the wins... but obviously doesnt seem like its going to happen this year..


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>dre1218us</b>!
> We can't use that against him two years later. That was almost a completely different set of teammates. He could've matured since then, he could be encouraging all his teammates for all we know. But we don't. But I can say he doesn't make his teammates better on the court. He scores his points, but he doesn't really try to get his teammates involved.


Thats just not true. Tmac is the only guy on the team that creates shots for other people.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> IS EVERBODY JUST GOING TO IGNORE ME:
> 
> quote:
> Originally posted by Dee Bo!
> Tmac has not de-valued his team or teammates. Tmac has been known as a great teammate since he came to Orlando and has always gotten along with his teammates.
> 
> 
> 
> dont make things up.
> 
> after baron davis schooled tmac in there playoff series 2 years ago.
> 
> tmac said "hes not a better player than me. look at my teammates and look at his."
> 
> if thats not devaluing his teamates wat is?


That was a long time ago. And at the time, the truth. There wasn't any negative feedback from his teammates either.


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## shobe42

who cares when he said it u said he never had a problem.

not too mention how horace grant used to rip on him saying that after playing with Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant he said that Tmac isnt on their level competitive wise or as a LEADER.


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## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>jokeaward</b>!
> 
> 
> They won 40 last year. So they were just 40 flukes?


I said all that according to this year and the 3 first round playoff series ('01,'02,'03).


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## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> First off, desire and determination has nothing to do at all with poise. They are completely different things even though you are tryig to relate them.
> 
> Second, who are you to question Tmac's desire and/or determination? Desire and determination have nothing to do with him averaging 32 ppg last season? How about the desire and determination to improve his body and work on his game over the summer? You act as though 32 ppg scoring is no big feat. And Orlando needed every bit of that 32 ppg to have the record they had.


How are they completely different things? I know my vocabulary dude, so don't try redefining it. 

Desire and Deterimination has to do with getting out of the first round series basically translating to: have Desire & Determination to win a game, not the PPG you average. you should know despite scoring 30+ points last season in a few games, he lost them so how does the points you average effect your desire and determination?


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> 
> How are they completely different things? I know my vocabulary dude, so don't try redefining it.
> 
> Desire and Deterimination has to do with getting out of the first round series basically translating to: have Desire & Determination to win a game, not the PPG you average. you should know despite scoring 30+ points last season in a few games, he lost them so how does the points you average effect your desire and determination?


Well, there are 1000 different ways to look at or measure someone's desire or determination, so there is no sense in arguing about it. I just think it is funny that someone like yourself feels as though you have the ability to measure someone's desire and/or determination, someone you see on TV for 2 hours every once in awhile.

Might want to go back and check your vocab book again _dude_, because neither desire nor determination has anything to do with poise.


----------



## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, there are 1000 different ways to look at or measure someone's desire or determination, so there is no sense in arguing about it. I just think it is funny that someone like yourself feels as though you have the ability to measure someone's desire and/or determination, someone you see on TV for 2 hours every once in awhile.
> 
> Might want to go back and check your vocab book again _dude_, because neither desire nor determination has anything to do with poise.


:yes:


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> who cares when he said it u said he never had a problem.
> 
> not too mention how horace grant used to rip on him saying that after playing with Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant he said that Tmac isnt on their level competitive wise or as a LEADER.


Please do not put Kobe and Jordan in the same boat as a leader because Kobe is just as unproven as a LEADER as Tmac is. I dont care if you say Kobe is better than Tmac, or Kobe is more competitive than Tmac but Jordan was head and shoulders above them both as a leader, player, defender, scorer, winner and they are PRODUCTS of the Jordan era.


----------



## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Please do not put Kobe and Jordan in the same boat as a leader because Kobe is just as unproven as a LEADER as Tmac is. I dont care if you say Kobe is better than Tmac, or Kobe is more competitive than Tmac but Jordan was head and shoulders above them both as a leader, player, defender, scorer, winner and they are PRODUCTS of the Jordan era.


 I have to agree with most of the stuff you say there John...


----------



## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, there are 1000 different ways to look at or measure someone's desire or determination, so there is no sense in arguing about it. I just think it is funny that someone like yourself feels as though you have the ability to measure someone's desire and/or determination, someone you see on TV for 2 hours every once in awhile.
> 
> Might want to go back and check your vocab book again _dude_, because neither desire nor determination has anything to do with poise.


Damn Tmac fan. Can't see the truth since your blinded by biasness.


----------



## Nevus

I don't think either Kobe or T-Mac are strong leaders at this point in their careers. Kobe is independent and aloof, and he plays with a sort of angsty chip on his shoulder... although his teammates clearly admire his skills, I think Kobe is too willing to "do his own thing" to inspire resolve or confidence in his teammates. T-Mac doesn't give the impression of any intensity... he is so laid-back and casual, even when he's on fire. I don't think that's leadership either.

That's why I think that although they are great players of this era, as of now their places in history are not as high as some people think, especially in Kobe's case.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> 
> Damn Tmac fan. Can't see the truth since your blinded by biasness.


I'd really like to know what "truth" I am blinded from.


----------



## shobe42

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Please do not put Kobe and Jordan in the same boat as a leader because Kobe is just as unproven as a LEADER as Tmac is. I dont care if you say Kobe is better than Tmac, or Kobe is more competitive than Tmac but Jordan was head and shoulders above them both as a leader, player, defender, scorer, winner and they are PRODUCTS of the Jordan era.


i didnt say it Horace Grant did

i dont think he was necc. putting kobe and mike on the same level
ithink he ws just puttin em ahead of mcrady


----------



## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd really like to know what "truth" I am blinded from.


I'd like to know that as well..


----------



## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> 
> 
> i didnt say it Horace Grant did
> 
> i dont think he was necc. putting kobe and mike on the same level
> ithink he ws just puttin em ahead of mcrady


Find the quote.. I don't see it anywhere


----------



## jokeaward

Oh, yeah, the '03 series was a travesty. He only dropped about 40+ the first two games against the best defensive team in the East. If he had much help, they'd have gone 2-0. Nevertheless, his team only went 2-0 in the next 2 after that against the 1 seed. :no:

And Detroit COULD win games, so if the Magic wasn't such a good all-around team, they might win 4/7 or even 3/3, and that's what happened.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> i didnt say it Horace Grant did
> 
> i dont think he was necc. putting kobe and mike on the same level
> ithink he ws just puttin em ahead of mcrady


alright, my mistake.


----------



## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd really like to know what "truth" I am blinded from.


lol!! What kind of a comment is that? 

The truth is that McGrady isn't a leader yet in every aspect of the game exept for obviously, the offensive side.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> 
> lol!! What kind of a comment is that?
> 
> The truth is that McGrady isn't a leader yet in every aspect of the game exept for obviously, the offensive side.


What kind of comment? Sorry, didn't think it would be that difficult for you to understand.

McGrady has been leading Orlando since he got there, if you can't see that, that is fine with me.


----------



## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> What kind of comment? Sorry, didn't think it would be that difficult for you to understand.
> 
> McGrady has been leading Orlando since he got there, if you can't see that, that is fine with me.


McGrady's the # 1 option on the offensive side, but how does that make him a leader? A leader consists of everything Jordan was so don't try comparing his leadership to Jordan's.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> 
> McGrady's the # 1 option on the offensive side, but how does that make him a leader? A leader consists of everything Jordan was so don't try comparing his leadership to Jordan's.


McGrady has led a bunch of scrubs into the playoffs the last three years. And most of those three seasons he led the team in just about every major statistical category, or close to it.

I wasn't comparing McGrady's leadership to Jordan's. There isn't anyone in the league, besides maybe Duncan, that I would compare to Jordan's leadership.

Lets not forget also that it wasn't until Jordan started winning championships that he became known as a leader. He was considered an incredibly selfish player to begin with and was not liked by many of his teammates. It wasn't until about the age of 27/28 when that time came.


----------



## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> McGrady has led a bunch of scrubs into the playoffs the last three years. And most of those three seasons he led the team in just about every major statistical category, or close to it.
> 
> I wasn't comparing McGrady's leadership to Jordan's. There isn't anyone in the league, besides maybe Duncan, that I would compare to Jordan's leadership.
> 
> Lets not forget also that it wasn't until Jordan started winning championships that he became known as a leader. He was considered an incredibly selfish player to begin with and was not liked by many of his teammates. It wasn't until about the age of 27/28 when that time came.


So I guess this thread is a waste since you and many other people think he's a leader but has a crap supporting cast so people like the thread starter doesn't see him as a leader? 

In my opinion, Jordan was a leader before he won the championships because not only was he the # 1 offensive option, he was also the best defender on his team which lead to having unrealistic statistics. It doesn't make sense to say he was incredibly selfish before the championship reigns when he averaged 8 assists in a season while averaging around 5 assists after he won the championships?


----------



## shobe42

u know wat this topic is dumb.

its obvious that TMac is being kinda a whiny baby rite now.
whether its his fault or his teamates or w/e is up to debate and there are good points for evrybody.

but wat do u guys want from them. to deebo and whoever else
they arent going to just say yea ur rite TMac is a b****. thats theyre boy they are going to and should defend him

when shaq is says some of the retarded things he says i defend him and when kobe wanted to be traded i defended him.

its wat there expected to do.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> 
> when shaq is says some of the retarded things he says i defend him and when kobe wanted to be traded i defended him.
> 
> its wat there expected to do.


So maybe the lesson to be learned here is that lots and lots of players do things that can be criticized and creating five new threads to attack them for it, so that the fans of the team that player plays for can all argue it back, is pointless?

How many more "T-Mac's not a leader," "Kobe's not a leader" threads do we need? Kobe's going to say something about Shaq, Shaq's going to snipe back, McGrady may say something about how tough life is. Feel free to let it go and analyze on-court play.


----------



## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> In my opinion, Jordan was a leader before he won the championships because not only was he the # 1 offensive option, he was also the best defender on his team which lead to having unrealistic statistics. It doesn't make sense to say he was incredibly selfish before the championship reigns when he averaged 8 assists in a season while averaging around 5 assists after he won the championships?


McGrady is the best defender on the Magic. McGrady avg 5.6 assist per game this season.. It should be like 8 assist per game or higher considering his teammates are missing wide open shots and layups.. You didn't see the game where there was like 6 seconds left, someone on the magic screwed up and its the other teams ball and mcgrady runs slaps the ball off of the offense's hand and gets the ball back with 1 second left on the clock..if thats not AMAZING defense...what is?? It gave the magic a second oppurtunity to tie up the game...


----------



## Fromthasouth

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> McGrady has led a bunch of scrubs into the playoffs the last three years. And most of those three seasons he led the team in just about every major statistical category, or close to it.
> 
> I wasn't comparing McGrady's leadership to Jordan's. There isn't anyone in the league, besides maybe Duncan, that I would compare to Jordan's leadership.
> 
> Lets not forget also that it wasn't until Jordan started winning championships that he became known as a leader. He was considered an incredibly selfish player to begin with and was not liked by many of his teammates. It wasn't until about the age of 27/28 when that time came.


A bunch of scrubs?? Are you kidding me?? Hes had more than a solid team, every year, Dee Bo every year you have the same excuse they dont have enough players. Who are you hoping for Dream Team 1?? Did you hear vince complain or AI?? Whats the problem this year in Orlando?? I guess the reason Tmac went 6 for 17 was his teammates fault?? I mean Tyronn Lue scored as many points as him, hell darius songalia almost outscored the great Tmac. Orlando Magic needs to show some pride, they are a disgrace to the NBA!! I mean if they would watch Utah play and learn to play with that kind of heart then maybe they wouldn't lose by 30 to the Kings!!! :yes: I kind of hope The magic continue this way, and we can listen to Tracy talk about retiring :laugh:


----------



## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>Fromthasouth</b>!
> 
> A bunch of scrubs?? Are you kidding me?? Hes had more than a solid team, every year, Dee Bo every year you have the same excuse they dont have enough players. Who are you hoping for Dream Team 1?? Did you hear vince complain or AI?? Whats the problem this year in Orlando?? I guess the reason Tmac went 6 for 17 was his teammates fault?? I mean Tyronn Lue scored as many points as him, hell darius songalia almost outscored the great Tmac. Orlando Magic needs to show some pride, they are a disgrace to the NBA!! I mean if they would watch Utah play and learn to play with that kind of heart then maybe they wouldn't lose by 30 to the Kings!!! :yes: I kind of hope The magic continue this way, and we can listen to Tracy talk about retiring :laugh:


I hate to break it to you but uhh...Tracy Mcgrady isn't retiring. He will retire on top after getting a ring or few at a later age..he's too young..


----------



## Fromthasouth

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> 
> 
> I hate to break it to you but uhh...Tracy Mcgrady isn't retiring. He will retire on top after getting a ring or few at a later age..he's too young..


I hope this prediction is a little bit better than the one you made about the Magic this season


----------



## The MAgiC

Wanna hear my prediction? Someone will be RE-banned by the end of the week. 

And Dee Bo... for christ sake, stop arguing with a kid. It's obvious he doesn't actually have a single clue what he's talking about, he's just spouting off random nonsensical hatred towards a player he probably never even sees play except for the few times he plays against his team. Hating T-Mac and doing it in the most immature, FALSE manner possible seems to have become the new fad here. Don't bite the bait.

And Matt, go do your homework!!!!!


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> Wanna hear my prediction? Someone will be RE-banned by the end of the week.
> 
> And Dee Bo... for christ sake, stop arguing with a kid. It's obvious he doesn't actually have a single clue what he's talking about, he's just spouting off random nonsensical hatred towards a player he probably never even sees play except for the few times he plays against his team. Hating T-Mac and doing it in the most immature, FALSE manner possible seems to have become the new fad here. Don't bite the bait.
> 
> And Matt, go do your homework!!!!!


Yea, theres a few posters here who feel the need to totally hate on Tmac because of their love for Kobe, fromthasouth is quickly becoming one of them judging from his new thread in the forum. "when will the world realize tmac sucks and kobe is the greatest basketball player ever?" ... They cant be argued with because even an intelligent man looks foolish arguing with ignorance.


----------



## The MAgiC

I think there are in fact intelligent Kobe fans in this world.... just not many on this board. It's such a shame they give themselves such a bad name here. I really do think South has the dreaded Grizzo Virus. :sour: Come on, where's the IP check?


----------



## Johnny Mac

No doubt, I can think of a few intelligent Kobe fans I've debated with on this board. It seems that the less professional ones who name call are the ones who post more frequently so it gives them a bad name.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Fromthasouth</b>!
> 
> A bunch of scrubs?? Are you kidding me?? Hes had more than a solid team, every year, Dee Bo every year you have the same excuse they dont have enough players. Who are you hoping for Dream Team 1?? Did you hear vince complain or AI?? Whats the problem this year in Orlando?? I guess the reason Tmac went 6 for 17 was his teammates fault?? I mean Tyronn Lue scored as many points as him, hell darius songalia almost outscored the great Tmac. Orlando Magic needs to show some pride, they are a disgrace to the NBA!! I mean if they would watch Utah play and learn to play with that kind of heart then maybe they wouldn't lose by 30 to the Kings!!! :yes: I kind of hope The magic continue this way, and we can listen to Tracy talk about retiring :laugh:


Yes a bunch of scrubs, no doubt. And management has made the team younger and less experienced every single season.

I dont deny Tmac gets some of the blame for the record so far this season, but so does everyone else on that team. Most of the guys on the team are barely shooting 31% so far this season.

I find it curious that you know what I say every year but you have only been registered since this month ... nice .. welcome back Grizzo.


----------



## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> Wanna hear my prediction? Someone will be RE-banned by the end of the week.
> 
> And Dee Bo... for christ sake, stop arguing with a kid. It's obvious he doesn't actually have a single clue what he's talking about, he's just spouting off random nonsensical hatred towards a player he probably never even sees play except for the few times he plays against his team. Hating T-Mac and doing it in the most immature, FALSE manner possible seems to have become the new fad here. Don't bite the bait.
> 
> And Matt, go do your homework!!!!!


Hahaha, like I said to Dee Bo, you can't see the truth since your blinded by biasness.


----------



## BallBiologist

Welcome back grizzo, I asked an admin to do a IP check earlier and no response. Oh well.. We will all know you are grizzo or somehow related to him

Only grizzo would have a name like 'fromthasouth'...

BTW, I don't know why Kobe fans hate on Tmac and tmac fans... You dont go around hearing Tmac fans degrading Kobe as a player.. I think Kobe fans are just jealous


----------



## The MAgiC

I called it first! :laugh:


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> 
> Hahaha, like I said to Dee Bo, you can't see the truth since your blinded by biasness.


Of course, you have no way to back up your own point but with your own opinions, then say other people are blinded by truth by their bias. It sounds very intelligent, too bad it isnt.


----------



## The MAgiC

I'm blinded from the truth? A 16 yr old prophet. :laugh: I'd ask you what "truth" it is you're ranting about, but it's clear YOU don't even know what you're saying. The truth is that you're just a sad, jealous Raptors fan with scorn for the superstar that didn't want to play for your team. :laugh: It's called the past. Let go of it. Someone get him a tissue.


----------



## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> Of course, you have no way to back up your own point but with your own opinions, then say other people are blinded by truth by their bias. It sounds very intelligent, too bad it isnt.


I haven't backed up my points but my own opinions? Did you actually read my posts? Its clear that you and The MaGiC love Tmac so much it makes all the Bulls fans loving Eddy Curry nothing.


----------



## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> I'm blinded from the truth? A 16 yr old prophet. :laugh: I'd ask you what "truth" it is you're ranting about, but it's clear YOU don't even know what you're saying. The truth is that you're just a sad, jealous Raptors fan with scorn for the superstar that didn't want to play for your team. :laugh: It's called the past. Let go of it. Someone get him a tissue.


Are you 12 years old? 'cause what you said sounds like one. Crap, how did you know I'm jealous because the player you crave decided not to play with us? Pfft, your wrong. I never gave a damn when he left and still don't.


----------



## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you 12 years old? 'cause that sounds like one. Crap, how did you know I'm jealous because the player you crave decided not to play with us? Pfft, your wrong. I never gave a damn when he left and still don't.


"Man, if only we had T-mac on the Raptors.... we would have won 3 titles by now"

"Imagine the duo, V-Cat and Mcgrady doing all sickening dunks in the same game all the time"


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> 
> I haven't backed up my points but my own opinions? Did you actually read my posts? Its clear that you and The MaGiC love Tmac so much it makes all the Bulls fans loving Eddy Curry nothing.


"T-mac's the leader in possessions, but he isn't the leader in desire and determination period"

Forgot about this one, sorry, solid facts here.

"I'm talking about the lack of poise to win a game and he doesn't have the poise a.k.a. desire and determination to win a game."

This was another good one. "poise a.k.a. desire and determination" ... lol

"Look who's 1-11? Oh well, that officially makes him have no desire and determination."

Another good fact. Yes, just because the team is 1-11, it has nothing to do with the play of the team as a whole, it all goes back to Tmac's desire and determination (aka poise). 

"you should know despite scoring 30+ points last season in a few games, *he* lost them so how does the points you average effect your desire and determination?"

Again, I guess those games were 5 on 1. I guess it doesn't matter that Tmac basically had to score 30+ points for Orlando to be able to win.

"Damn Tmac fan. Can't see the truth since your blinded by biasness."

Yet another excellent point.

"The truth is that McGrady isn't a leader yet in every aspect of the game exept for obviously, the offensive side."

Looks like an unproven opinion to me.


Did *you* read your own posts? You basically said a whole lot of nothing. If your whole argument is your own measurement of Tmac's desire and determination (aka poise), then sorry, it is an opinion. Maybe you have your own biases to deal with.


----------



## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> "T-mac's the leader in possessions, but he isn't the leader in desire and determination period"
> 
> Forgot about this one, sorry, solid facts here.
> 
> "I'm talking about the lack of poise to win a game and he doesn't have the poise a.k.a. desire and determination to win a game."
> 
> This was another good one. "poise a.k.a. desire and determination" ... lol
> 
> "Look who's 1-11? Oh well, that officially makes him have no desire and determination."
> 
> Another good fact. Yes, just because the team is 1-11, it has nothing to do with the play of the team as a whole, it all goes back to Tmac's desire and determination (aka poise).
> 
> "you should know despite scoring 30+ points last season in a few games, *he* lost them so how does the points you average effect your desire and determination?"
> 
> Again, I guess those games were 5 on 1. I guess it doesn't matter that Tmac basically had to score 30+ points for Orlando to be able to win.
> 
> "Damn Tmac fan. Can't see the truth since your blinded by biasness."
> 
> Yet another excellent point.
> 
> "The truth is that McGrady isn't a leader yet in every aspect of the game exept for obviously, the offensive side."
> 
> Looks like an unproven opinion to me.
> 
> 
> Did *you* read your own posts? You basically said a whole lot of nothing. If your whole argument is your own measurement of Tmac's desire and determination (aka poise), then sorry, it is an opinion. Maybe you have your own biases to deal with.


When I said he lost them, I was referring to the whole team. Why are you making small errors such a big deal?

Just to let you know, I spoke my "opinions" as you would call it after watching him play. If I never saw him play, I would of never said all that. 
If you think what I said were opinions, I guess everything you said are opinions too.... Wait, everything you said were facts because you have watched more Magic games than me and know more about your idol more than me right? Pffft. 

In my honest opinion backed up with proofs (watching games etc.), he doesn't have desire and determination on a consistent basis. If you think he has desire and determination, prove it.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> "Man, if only we had T-mac on the Raptors.... we would have won 3 titles by now"
> 
> "Imagine the duo, T-mac and Mcgrady doing all sickening dunks in the same game all the time"



Tmac and Mcgrady huh? WHAT A DUO! :grinning:


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> When I said he lost them, I was referring to the whole team. Why are you making small errors such a big deal?
> 
> Just to let you know, I spoke my "opinions" as you would call it after watching him play. If I never saw him play, I would of never said all that.
> If you think what I said were opinions, I guess everything you said are opinions too.... Wait, everything you said were facts because you have watched more Magic games than me and know more about your idol more than me right? Pffft.
> 
> In my honest opinion backed up with proofs (watching games etc.), he doesn't have desire and determination on a consistent basis. If you think he has desire and determination, prove it.


I don't have to prove it, i'm not putting it into question. I try not concern myself with trying to question mental things that have to do with players.

I hardly ever state anything as fact and that is for a reason.

That is great for you that you came up with your _opinions_ by watching him play a couple games, but yeah, I have seen probably 75% of the games the last three years .. so I would think I could be considered a better authority on Tmac as player than you.

Again, all you are doing is questioning something you have no basis to question, desire and/or determination.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> In my honest opinion backed up with proofs (watching games etc.), he doesn't have desire and determination on a consistent basis. If you think he has desire and determination, prove it.


If "watching games" counts as "proof" for your opinion, why doesn't that count as "proof" for his opinion?

Which only goes to show that there's absolutely nothing to be "proven" here. You both watch the same player and games and come to entirely different opinions. Not provable conclusions.


----------



## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't have to prove it, i'm not putting it into question. I try not concern myself with trying to question mental things that have to do with players.
> 
> I hardly ever state anything as fact and that is for a reason.
> 
> That is great for you that you came up with your _opinions_ by watching him play a couple games, but yeah, I have seen probably 75% of the games the last three years .. so I would think I could be considered a better authority on Tmac as player than you.
> 
> Again, all you are doing is questioning something you have no basis to question, desire and/or determination.


I guess no one can measure his leadership since no one is him? But I thought this thread was created to have an argument if he's a leader or not aka if he has desire and determination or not? Or was it created for the person that has better authority on tmac than anyone else (which is you) to answer the thread title?


----------



## Johnny Mac

*Re: Re: T-Mac...isn't a leader yet?????*



> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> He still doesn't have good enough teammates to make the Magic a great team, which would magically add leadership to McGrady in people's perception.
> 
> Jordan really didn't change his mindset a whole lot except being willing to get his teammates involved, which T-Mac also does. However, Jordan was also called a "scorer but not a leader" until Pippen showed up and the Bulls became a top team.
> 
> The simple fact is that most people really don't know how to find or evaluate leadership. So they go for the only three things they can see: *A.* talent, *B.* outspoken attitude, and *C.* *winning*.
> 
> Take an uber-talented player and give him the attitude, but a horrible team. What is his label? "Mouthy" not "leader."
> 
> Add him to a great team that wins the next seven championships and the *same* guy is the greatest leader in the game, and it's blasphemy to say otherwise.
> 
> Take that same player, leave him on the great team, but take away the outspoken attitude, and now he's just a talented part of the team, but not a leader.
> 
> None of us know what the stars are saying in the locker room, what they're saying or teaching in practice, whether they're calling guys in the off-season to keep them honing their skills. Or how involved they are in keeping guys spirits up.
> 
> In other words, we don't know who shows *real* leadership. So, many people try to invent such knowledge from incredibly superficial indicators, like winning. I.e. if the team doesn't win, clearly no one can be showing any leadership...otherwise, they'd win, talent irregardless.
> 
> I think such indirect and imprecise measures are a bad idea.


Everyone read this and let this topic rest.


----------



## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> If "watching games" counts as "proof" for your opinion, why doesn't that count as "proof" for his opinion?
> 
> Which only goes to show that there's absolutely nothing to be "proven" here. You both watch the same player and games and come to entirely different opinions. Not provable conclusions.


Maybe because since he knows more about Tmac than me and is a crazy fan of his while i'm just a quiet fan of his, thats probably why he obviously has different opinions than mine?


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> I guess no one can measure his leadership since no one is him?


Yes. There is no one here who could accurately determine how good of a leader Tmac is. That would be a judgement that could probably only be made by the guys he shares a lockerroom with.



> But I thought this thread was created to have an argument if he's a leader or not aka if he has desire and determination or not? Or was it created for the person that has better authority on tmac than anyone else (which is you) to answer the thread title?


I disagree with this type of thread as a whole, but I particularly disagreed with what you said, thus, this argument. I think you need to tone down your *aka*s, because now you've got desire=determination=leadership=poise ... none of which are the same thing.


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## BallBiologist

Can we get a mod to close this thread. It is going no where.

John, about T-mac Mcgrady duo, you know what I meant..but imagine 2 T-macs on the same team!!!


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## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> I think you need to tone down your *aka*s, because now you've got desire=determination=leadership=poise ... none of which are the same thing.


I think in Tmac's case, the 4 words mean the same?


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> Can we get a mod to close this thread. It is going no where.
> 
> John, about T-mac Mcgrady duo, you know what I meant..but imagine 2 T-macs on the same team!!!


Why would it be closed? There is an ongoing discussion and the discussion has not become un-civil and no one is breaking any rules. I could close the thread, but I see no reason to. Of course this post alone will probably kill the thread.


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## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> Why would it be closed? There is an ongoing discussion and the discussion has not become un-civil and no one is breaking any rules. I could close the thread, but I see no reason to. Of course this post alone will probably kill the thread.


Oh yes, there are many purposes of this board but theres 1 main purpose of this board: to have arguments so it can get interesting hehe


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> 
> I think in Tmac's case, the 4 words mean the same?


I would disagree (surprise). I think Tmac has excellent desire and determination, good leadership at this point, and average poise in late game situations. So I wouldnt say they are the same.


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## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> I would disagree (surprise). I think Tmac has excellent desire and determination, good leadership at this point, and average poise in late game situations. So I wouldnt say they are the same.


You finally changed you rmonkey avator..i like the new one a lot..

He's just going to say that you are a blind T-mac fan as a reply to what you just stated above...


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## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> He's just going to say that you are a blind T-mac fan as a reply to what you just stated above...


Nope, 'cause its just going to make him "throw more daggers" at me consisting of some proven Tmac facts like things he already mentioned above


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## Mattsanity

Hmm, does this say anything about Tmac?


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> Hmm, does this say anything about Tmac?


No. But it does speak worlds about your maturity.


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## The MAgiC

It speaks volumes about you Matt, not him. Can we get an age requirement on this board please? 

This thread should have been closed when it was made because it is a worthless topic considering we don't know how good of a leader he is, only his teammates do. 

And for intelligent discussion to be going on, both people involved have to be discussing it intelligently. Obviously not the case here. 

Matt, you think Dee Bo's opinions mean less than yours because according to you, your opinions are fact. This is called i-m-m-a-t-u-r-i-t-y. Say it with me now. You also think your opinion is more accurate because Dee Bo is a "biased T-Mac lover". Don't give us this quiet fan BS Matt. You're not a fan AT ALL. You're what's commonly known as a hater, plain and simple. You can't deny it after this joke of a thread. You are much more biased in the opposite direction than Dee Bo is towards the Magic and T-Mac. Which makes your comments about bias pretty hilarious. Your opinions are just that, opinions. And while Dee Bo has his own opinions, he has watched a HELL of a lot more Magic games than you, therefore, whether you like it or not, his opinions and thoughts on the way a Magic player plays ARE MORE VALID THAN YOURS. You're digging yourself a deeper hole by replying with stupid pictures like that. Your immaturity has shown through clearly, and I suggest you stop posting on the subject BEFORE you become the laughing stock of the board.


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## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> No. But it does speak worlds about your maturity.


When was I ever immature?


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## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> It speaks volumes about you Matt, not him. Can we get an age requirement on this board please?
> 
> This thread should have been closed when it was made because it is a worthless topic considering we don't know how good of a leader he is, only his teammates do.
> 
> And for intelligent discussion to be going on, both people involved have to be discussing it intelligently. Obviously not the case here.
> 
> Matt, *you think Dee Bo's opinions mean less than yours because according to you, your opinions are fact.* This is called i-m-m-a-t-u-r-i-t-y. Say it with me now. *You also think your opinion is more accurate because Dee Bo is a "biased T-Mac lover". *Don't give us this quiet fan BS Matt. *You're not a fan AT ALL. You're what's commonly known as a hater, plain and simple.* You can't deny it after this joke of a thread. *You are much more biased in the opposite direction than Dee Bo* is towards the Magic and T-Mac. Which makes your comments about bias pretty hilarious. Your opinions are just that, opinions. And while Dee Bo has his own opinions, he has watched a HELL of a lot more Magic games than you, therefore, whether you like it or not, his opinions and thoughts on the way a Magic player plays ARE MORE VALID THAN YOURS. You're digging yourself a deeper hole by replying with stupid pictures like that. Your immaturity has shown through clearly, and I suggest you stop posting on the subject BEFORE you become the laughing stock of the board.


Can everyone say The MAgIC, The Guardian Of Dee Bo And The Hater Of All Raptor Fans?



Also, I think the words printed in bold summarizes into 1 word: *Lies*


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## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> 
> When was I ever immature?


well, you never were mature so... that would make it..all the time..


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## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> 
> 
> well, you never were mature so... that would make it..all the time..


When was I never mature? To be honest, the majority of my posts are mature while some of them aren't because theres something every human has done in their life and that is to have fun and joke around, especially on a social board right?


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> 
> When was I never mature? To be honest, the majority of my posts are mature while some of them aren't because theres something every human has done in their life and that is to have fun and joke around, especially on a social board right?


Posting that stupid picture of Tmac's face on a baby is pretty immature, especially if you took the time to make it yourself, then it becomes pathetic.


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## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> Posting that stupid picture of Tmac's face on a baby is pretty immature, especially if you took the time to make it yourself, then it becomes pathetic.


Oh yes, all 682 posts of mine were very immature just because of 1 post mocking Tmac. 

And no, I didn't modify the picture. I got it from www.rickbrunson.com , the most funniest Raptor bashing site ever made by people who have too much time on their hands... But the exact URL is http://www.rickbrunson.com/news/112003/11192003.html to find the picture.


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## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh yes, all 682 posts of mine were very immature just because of 1 post mocking Tmac.
> 
> And no, I didn't modify the picture. I got it from www.rickbrunson.com , the most funniest Raptor bashing site ever made by people who have too much time on their hands... But the exact URL is http://www.rickbrunson.com/news/112003/11192003.html to find the picture.


P.S. The magic shouldn't of cut Rick Brunson.


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