# lebron , best player in the nba how long?



## SamTheMan67

2-3 years IMO


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## Captain Obvious

> Originally posted by <b>SamTheMan67</b>!
> 2-3 years IMO


I'm pretty sure it'll take longer than that. However, in 2-3 years he should easily be a top ten player, and he'll probably be top five.


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## HKF

Not for a while. As I have said many times, his competition is much better than people are going to admit. 

Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Yao Ming, Andre Kirilenko, Carmelo Anthony, Lamar Odom, Amare Stoudemire, Elton Brand, Dirk Nowitzki, Jermaine O'Neal, Ron Artest, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, Tyson Chandler, Mike Dunleavy Jr., Mickael Pietrus, Gilbert Arenas, Richard Jefferson, Michael Redd, Richard Hamilton, Stephon Marbury, Mike Bibby, Baron Davis, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson...

Quite a few of these guys are going to step in Lebron James' way to the top. If he steps up and dominates the league and becomes the best player in the league, then that means one of two things, a) the stars at the top of the league, weren't as good as we thought they were or b) Lebron James is really the chosen one so to speak.

I am still of the opinion that as good as he is, he will not be the best player in the NBA for at least 5-8 years, if ever. Usually, when someone can bet on the field over one favorite, their odds are immense. I'll go with my odds.


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## futuristxen

I see him being better than Kobe and T-Mac within 2 years max. He'll have to win championships to get ahead of KG, Duncan, and Shaq though.

And those guys will probably retire before Lebron's got a championship team around him. But you never know. Maybe Luke Jackson and Verajao are the start of a future championship nucleus.


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## Blazer Freak

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Not for a while. As I have said many times, his competition is much better than people are going to admit.
> 
> Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Yao Ming, Andre Kirilenko, Carmelo Anthony, Lamar Odom, Amare Stoudemire, Elton Brand, Dirk Nowitzki, Jermaine O'Neal, Ron Artest, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, Tyson Chandler, Mike Dunleavy Jr., Mickael Pietrus, Gilbert Arenas, Richard Jefferson, Michael Redd, Richard Hamilton, Stephon Marbury, Mike Bibby, Baron Davis, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson...
> 
> Quite a few of these guys are going to step in Lebron James' way to the top. If he steps up and dominates the league and becomes the best player in the league, then that means one of two things, a) the stars at the top of the league, weren't as good as we thought they were or b) Lebron James is really the chosen one so to speak.
> 
> I am still of the opinion that as good as he is, he will not be the best player in the NBA for at least 5-8 years, if ever. Usually, when someone can bet on the field over one favorite, their odds are immense. I'll go with my odds.


The 05-06 season. I think he will put up about 25-7ppg/7rpg/7apg. Hell, he could average 25/7/10 in 2 years. Jackson and Gooden will both be better and could score better, meaning more assists. This guy is gonna be great. 

:fire: :fire:*Zips up flame suit*:fire: :fire:

BFreak.


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## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>Blazer Freak</b>!
> The 05-06 season. I think he will put up about 25-7ppg/7rpg/7apg. Hell, he could average 25/7/10 in 2 years. Jackson and Gooden will both be better and could score better, meaning more assists. This guy is gonna be great.
> 
> :fire: :fire:*Zips up flame suit*:fire: :fire:
> 
> BFreak.


Hells yeah. That's what I'm talking 'bout!

Rock on BFreak.


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## shazha

You know when he first came into the league i really thought he could be somethign special, now i have my doubts about bron being the best in the league.

Heres why.

1) They dont play him to his strengths. Silas is trying to push him into the 2guard kobe/michael role. Bron is so much more than a perimeter scorer. Hes so much bigger and more court aware.

I think they should shift him back to that point forward role. Get him into the post more and tell him to focus on his rebounding. With his skill set he should be helping his teamates so much more in all other aspects of basketball. I hate the whole play him at 2 to conserve his energy crap. 

Keep his minutes to 34 a game, keep him fresh, and make him play 110% for those whole 34. Let him push the break, rebound with energy and get everyone involved. Silas is pushing Lebron to be too much of a scorer, and who knows maybe thats what lebron wants as well. 

But he could be SO much more. It would be a shame to see lebron end up being a scoring title holder on a losing team.


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## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> You know when he first came into the league i really thought he could be somethign special, now i have my doubts about bron being the best in the league.
> 
> Heres why.
> 
> 1) They dont play him to his strengths. Silas is trying to push him into the 2guard kobe/michael role. Bron is so much more than a perimeter scorer. Hes so much bigger and more court aware.
> 
> I think they should shift him back to that point forward role. Get him into the post more and tell him to focus on his rebounding. With his skill set he should be helping his teamates so much more in all other aspects of basketball. I hate the whole play him at 2 to conserve his energy crap.
> 
> Keep his minutes to 34 a game, keep him fresh, and make him play 110% for those whole 34. Let him push the break, rebound with energy and get everyone involved. Silas is pushing Lebron to be too much of a scorer, and who knows maybe thats what lebron wants as well.
> 
> But he could be SO much more. It would be a shame to see lebron end up being a scoring title holder on a losing team.


I agree with this. He should not be playing close to 40 minutes a game. Give him 34 and tell him to go balls out, making things happen for his teammates. 

Silas will be fired before Lebron ascends to that level.


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## Blazer Freak

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Hells yeah. That's what I'm talking 'bout!
> 
> Rock on BFreak.


:headbang: :headbang: Thats my pre..dic..ti..on..!

Bron, 25PPG/10APG/7RPG in 05-06.

BFreak.


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## shazha

I really dont think bron will ever average more than 6.5 assists, which is still a decent figure. Even 6 would be great, its not a knock on his passing ability, its just if hes going to be scoring so much, he'd need alot of shots. 

And on top of that, if hes going to be dishing out so many dimes, well damn, they'd have to run EVERY play through him and that makes the team way too predictable. Not to mention makes other team mates go cold.

Thats one of the reasons orlando does so bad, thats why decent players on the magic cant his a jump shot off a Tmac dish, because they all stand around cold as ice. Run a motion, run more screens get everyone involved with the passing now thats good basketball. Not just standing around watching one person make it happen.

I think brons rebounding figures could really skyrocket, especially now that boozer is gone. Silas has told bron to hit the boards harder this year i heard. 

22.5 points 6.7 boards and 5.9 assists sounds good for a second year player. I'd be very happy with that if they can rack up more wins.


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## Blazer Freak

You know you all wanna join my club  If you wanna PM me with the color you want your name.

BFreak.


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## futuristxen

Of course we all want to join your club.

Shazha, I think you're overstating Lebron's role as a scorer.

Here's why Lebron can get the higher assist numbers:
Fast...BREAK!

If he commits to the defensive glass, there's no reason he can't become like Jason Kidd in ripping down rebounds and getting steals and getting it out into the open floor.

This of course, will all be helped once Z is moved out to pasture and you get a big man like Diop...or if they could somehow get Sam Dahlembert from Philly.

I would expect Silas to find more ways to use Lebron than he did last year. It's an adjustment for him too. Lebron's not an easy player to coach, just because there hasn't been anyone like him before for most coaches. Finding the best way to maxamize his talents and maxamize the team by proxy is definitely a challenge, and nothing to be sneered at.

But expect since Snow and Mcinnis are now going to be play with Lebron, that Lebron gets more consistent touches in the offense. Those two guys know where their bread is buttered. It won't be like how Kevin Ollie was, where he wouldn't even look for Lebron.

And as far as the minutes, I think there's no reason he can't go between 36-38 minutes a night depending on the situation. Kid has amazing stamina.


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## BigMike

End of next season. Take it to the bank.


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## guyinabox

Never


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Of course we all want to join your club.
> 
> Shazha, I think you're overstating Lebron's role as a scorer.
> 
> Here's why Lebron can get the higher assist numbers:
> Fast...BREAK!
> 
> If he commits to the defensive glass, there's no reason he can't become like Jason Kidd in ripping down rebounds and getting steals and getting it out into the open floor.
> 
> This of course, will all be helped once Z is moved out to pasture and you get a big man like Diop...or if they could somehow get Sam Dahlembert from Philly.
> 
> I would expect Silas to find more ways to use Lebron than he did last year. It's an adjustment for him too. Lebron's not an easy player to coach, just because there hasn't been anyone like him before for most coaches. Finding the best way to maxamize his talents and maxamize the team by proxy is definitely a challenge, and nothing to be sneered at.
> 
> But expect since Snow and Mcinnis are now going to be play with Lebron, that Lebron gets more consistent touches in the offense. Those two guys know where their bread is buttered. It won't be like how Kevin Ollie was, where he wouldn't even look for Lebron.
> 
> And as far as the minutes, I think there's no reason he can't go between 36-38 minutes a night depending on the situation. Kid has amazing stamina.


Its funny that you mention that. I could never understand for the life of me how Ollie would look ANYBODY off, much less Lebron


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## BEEZ

personally i dont think he will be the best in the league for some time. Top 5 no doubt, but I think he will be the "SPECIAL PLAYER" in the league. But he defintiley will be the most MARKETABLE player in the league. No doubt about that


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## Johnny Mac

Its hard to say he'll undoubtedly be the best player in the league when hes only 19 now, but I think he'll be a legit MVP candidate in about 4-5 years. If everything goes perfect, it could be 2-3 years. I expect a rocky season or two though, and usually those are the type of seasons essential to the overall growth of a player.


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## Cap

Depends how he does this year. If he only improves incrementally this season (when he'll be 20 years old), I don't think he'll ever be the best player in the league. Of course this is all very difficult to predict, but my belief is that physically he's already as mature as he's going to be, or close to it. Today's great guards and forwards weren't physically mature when they entered the league unless they entered in late (and "late" nowadays is 22 years old). Most great players in league history have gotten better as they aged because they physically matured. And a lot of them also got better with increased minutes. LeBron played 40 mpg last season and is already about as physically mature as he's going to be (any bigger and he'd be a PF).


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## Benedict_Boozer

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Depends how he does this year. If he only improves incrementally this season (when he'll be 20 years old), I don't think he'll ever be the best player in the league. Of course this is all very difficult to predict, but my belief is that physically he's already as mature as he's going to be, or close to it. Today's great guards and forwards weren't physically mature when they entered the league unless they entered in late (and "late" nowadays is 22 years old). Most great players in league history have gotten better as they aged because they physically matured. And a lot of them also got better with increased minutes. LeBron played 40 mpg last season and is already about as physically mature as he's going to be (any bigger and he'd be a PF).



THe only thing about this is that his numbers are already incredible, 21ppg 6boards near 6assists how much better can they reasonably be without putting him into top 5 player status next year?

The top 2 guards in the league Kobe/Tmac are right around those numbers with more scoring (and more shots). So if he maintained the 6 & 6 but put up slightly more scoring he would already be in Tmac/Kobe status in his 2nd season out of highschool which would be unprecedented...

His defense will be what I think could show how great he will or will not become, for his shortcomings he is great in the passing lanes and showed in the olympics he can lock down and press. To be the best, he will have to play both sides IMO.


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## hobojoe

> Originally posted by <b>Benedict_Boozer</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> THe only thing about this is that his numbers are already incredible, 21ppg 6boards near 6assists how much better can they reasonably be without putting him into top 5 player status next year?
> 
> The top 2 guards in the league Kobe/Tmac are right around those numbers with more scoring (and more shots). So if he maintained the 6 & 6 but put up slightly more scoring he would already be in Tmac/Kobe status in his 2nd season out of highschool which would be unprecedented...
> 
> His defense will be what I think could show how great he will or will not become, for his shortcomings he is great in the passing lanes and showed in the olympics he can lock down and press. To be the best, he will have to play both sides IMO.


LeBron has to worry about passing Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, etc. before he can think about reaching and surpassing Kobe and T-Mac.


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## Nevus

I don't buy the physical maturity argument... I don't see how being bigger and stronger as a 19 year old than Tracy or Kobe are right now counts against him. And look at Tracy, he's still relatively skinny. But he's a much better shooter now.

Some guys come into the league undermuscled and have to adjust, but that's not the same thing as improving your game. All players have to get used to the physicality of the NBA game and LeBron James is no different, even though physically he's dishing it out more than he's taking the hits.

There isn't really a good model in the past of how LeBron might develop... you just can't compare him well to the other guys. But he doesn't even need to improve physically, he's already one of the best athletes in the NBA. How much he improves is going to be related to how much he improves his scoring skills and his defense.


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## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>Benedict_Boozer</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> THe only thing about this is that his numbers are already incredible, 21ppg 6boards near 6assists how much better can they reasonably be without putting him into top 5 player status next year?
> 
> The top 2 guards in the league Kobe/Tmac are right around those numbers with more scoring (and more shots). So if he maintained the 6 & 6 but put up slightly more scoring he would already be in Tmac/Kobe status in his 2nd season out of highschool which would be unprecedented...
> 
> His defense will be what I think could show how great he will or will not become, for his shortcomings he is great in the passing lanes and showed in the olympics he can lock down and press. To be the best, he will have to play both sides IMO.


Yeah, I think you hit the nail square on the head with that last paragraph. What separates Tmac/Kobe from LeBron is that last season, LeBron was a below average defender, average at best. LeBron has the perfect body to be an elite defender (think Pippenesqe), arguably better than Kobe/Tmac have now. If you'll recall, when Tmac and Kobe were 20 they were already very very good defenders, even when they shared the offensive load. Knowing how physically underdeveloped Kobe/Tmac were when they were 20, compared to LeBron, it's clear he has a lot of work to do defensively to catch those two. 

Of course, this mentions nothing about how superior Tmac/Kobe are as scorers. Their eFG% and scoring efficiency last season were much better than LeBron's, and both are far superior jump shooters. LeBron can obviously improve on those things, but not in a summer, no way. And again, if you'll remember, Kobe and Tmac were by no means poor jump shooters when they were 20. LeBron is a poor (mostly inconsistent) jump shooter, plain and simple. 



> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> I don't buy the physical maturity argument... I don't see how being bigger and stronger as a 19 year old than Tracy or Kobe are right now counts against him. And look at Tracy, he's still relatively skinny. But he's a much better shooter now.
> 
> Some guys come into the league undermuscled and have to adjust, but that's not the same thing as improving your game. All players have to get used to the physicality of the NBA game and LeBron James is no different, even though physically he's dishing it out more than he's taking the hits.


Tmac is a lean strong, he's not skinny. But that really wasn't my main point. My point was that LeBron's body at 19/20 has clearly *naturally* matured much more than either Kobe or Tmac at 19/20. His natural body development is further along than any NBA player at his age we've ever seen. That wasn't the case with Kobe/Tmac at his age. 



> There isn't really a good model in the past of how LeBron might develop... you just can't compare him well to the other guys. But he doesn't even need to improve physically, he's already one of the best athletes in the NBA. How much he improves is going to be related to how much he improves his scoring skills and his defense.


Maybe, we'll see.


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Depends how he does this year. If he only improves incrementally this season (when he'll be 20 years old), I don't think he'll ever be the best player in the league. Of course this is all very difficult to predict, but my belief is that physically he's already as mature as he's going to be, or close to it. Today's great guards and forwards weren't physically mature when they entered the league unless they entered in late (and "late" nowadays is 22 years old). Most great players in league history have gotten better as they aged because they physically matured. And a lot of them also got better with increased minutes. LeBron played 40 mpg last season and is already about as physically mature as he's going to be (any bigger and he'd be a PF).


I agree with you. I think that the physical maturity argument is perfectly valid if he doesnt improve a lot next season. If he doesnt show a lot of improvement, I see no reason to believe he will show a lot of improvement in the seasons after that.

If he does show a ton of improvement next season, then thats a different story, and would almost completely wipe out the physical maturity thing. 

Its all dependant on next year. Seeing how a guy improves from one season to the next is critical at his age.


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## SamTheMan67

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree with you. I think that the physical maturity argument is perfectly valid if he doesnt improve a lot next season. If he doesnt show a lot of improvement, I see no reason to believe he will show a lot of improvement in the seasons after that.
> 
> If he does show a ton of improvement next season, then thats a different story, and would almost completely wipe out the physical maturity thing.
> 
> Its all dependant on next year. Seeing how a guy improves from one season to the next is critical at his age.


I don't totally agree , it will depend on the next ~~ 4 years on how they develop .. you cant just judge on 1 year that would be like flipping a coin and saying heads comes out 100 percent


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## futuristxen

The physical maturity arguement is patently ridiculous. Is this basketball or is it weight lifting? You don't improve just by bulking up. Basketball is a game of skill more than just strength. The olympics underscored that.

It's an advantage to come in as the most athletic and imposing guard for a rookie. It takes nothing away. It's just something that will always accentuate his skill development.

Lebron showed in the olympics and at times last season that he is capable of being a lockdown defender. If he can play both ends of the floor that will put him above Kobe and T-Mac, neither of which play as hard defensively as they do offensively, if only because they physically can't (but with Lebron's stamina and athletic ability, there's no reason if you cut his minutes back to 36 that he can't play all out on both ends the whole time and that's what will make him great). When you can take the game over on both ends that's when you're getting into Jordan territory.

Lebron is far and away beyond T-Mac and Kobe at this same stage of their development. I think he's shown a maturity that neither Kobe or T-Mac had. And as Lebron's game matures, and he learns more how to take advantage of his strengths, then I think he will develop a nice chasm between himself and Kobe and T-Mac.

He's already on Paul Pierce's level. In case you didn't know. Which is pretty impressive for a guy who is still developing his J.


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## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> The physical maturity arguement is patently ridiculous. Is this basketball or is it weight lifting? You don't improve just by bulking up. Basketball is a game of skill more than just strength. The olympics underscored that.


We aren't just talking about strength though, we're talking about a person's body growing and maturing. LeBron's body is far more mature than Kobe and Tmac's were at the same age. We're not talking weights, we're talking nature. 



> It's an advantage to come in as the most athletic and imposing guard for a rookie. It takes nothing away. It's just something that will always accentuate his skill development.


It limits how much you can improve compared to other great players who played in the NBA at the same age. That's not really hard to understand. 



> Lebron showed in the olympics and at times last season that he is capable of being a lockdown defender.


Er, when? For five minutes at a time, and against who? :laugh: LeBron showed last season that he is an average defender and often a sorry defender. He has tons of work to do to become a great defender. 



> If he can play both ends of the floor that will put him above Kobe and T-Mac, neither of which play as hard defensively as they do offensively, if only because they physically can't (but with Lebron's stamina and athletic ability, there's no reason if you cut his minutes back to 36 that he can't play all out on both ends the whole time and that's what will make him great).


Wishful thinking, nothing more. You have no idea if LeBron can play both ends of the floor at full throttle for 36 mpg. He certainly couldn't do it last season. Remember, defense is mostly effort, and LeBron often didn't show any effort defensively last season. And he wasn't exactly dropping 30 ppg or playing against the best defenses in the league night in and night out. 



> Lebron is far and away beyond T-Mac and Kobe at this same stage of their development.


A common myth among Cavs fans/LeBron jockers. Both Tmac and Kobe had better jump shots and were better defenders when they were 20. LeBron's biggest advantage comes with his bball IQ, which makes him a much better passer than either Tmac or Kobe were at 20. Oh, and his athleticism. Of course, athleticism isn't a skill.



> He's already on Paul Pierce's level. In case you didn't know. Which is pretty impressive for a guy who is still developing his J.


No he isn't.


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## TyGuy

those kobe fans sure fight ot the death on why LeBron cant possibly be as good as their boy. 

Saying t-mac and kobe had better jumpers then Lebron at his age is rubbish, their first season out of the nba they were not good shooters by any standards, Lebron is 19 not 20.


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## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>TyGuy</b>!
> those kobe fans sure fight ot the death on why LeBron cant possibly be as good as their boy.


:boohoo:



> Saying t-mac and kobe had better jumpers then Lebron at his age is rubbish, their first season out of the nba they were not good shooters by any standards,


Did you watch the NBA in 1999 or 2000? Kobe and Tmac were not bad jump shooters the way LeBron is. 



> Lebron is 19 not 20.


LeBron is 19 years and 9+ months not 19.


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## BEEZ

No what I find it hard to understand is why posters dont want to understand or realize that whomever they're favorite player is or whoever they think the best palyer may be. Someone will come along and surpass them. Its not inconceivable that Lebron will be better than Kobe, Tmac or even Jordan. Its also not inconceivable that he wont be much better than he already is now. You have to wait and see. Also is it hard for you guys to give credit to your favorite players without tearing other players down.


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## futuristxen

Revisionist history at work here. Neither Kobe nor T-Mac came into the league with jump shots. Kobe was shooting airballs from time to time, just like Lebron was. And defensively, well it's hard to say what kind of defenders Kobe and T-Mac were when they first came into the league. Neither guy played much, because neither guy was good enough, or smart enough to get on the floor.

What we do know is that Lebron in high school, was never compared with Kobe by basketball experts, he was compared to Alcindor as possibly the greatest prep player of all-time.

Kobe when he came out wasn't even on KG's level. And T-Mac was REALLY rough around the edges. T-Mac looked like a bust at first. He was more like Ebi than Lebron.

His improvement didn't come from bulking up, it came from getting a jumpshot and learning how to play the NBA game.

I just don't understand how the work Lebron has put in on his body is some how an indictment on his ability to improve. Clearly he has an insane work ethic to get that body. It seems like people who are using that as a negative can't see the forest for the trees.

His physical attributes do mean that he is going to be a better player faster than either Kobe or T-Mac, but it doesn't mean his ceiling is somehow lower than those two players. Basketball is still a skill game, and it's 99 percent mental at the highest level. You have to learn how to use those physical abilities, just having them doesn't mean much, otherwise Eddie Robinson would be an all-star. As Lebron figures out more and more what he can do with his advantages, he will get better and better.

He's already at 19 bigger, stronger, and faster than every perimeter player in the league. Once he learns how to abuse the smaller players in the post(like Kobe), and then utilize his quickness and driving ability against the bigger but slower players, that's going to really up his game.

It's amazing that some of you think Lebron is the only 19 year old who can't possibly get any better.

Oh well. I guess you're just going to be in for a suprise next season and the seasons afterwards.


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Oh well. I guess you're just going to be in for a suprise next season and the seasons afterwards.


I think EHL has the stance that if Lebron doesnt make big improvements next season, then his theory about his physical maturity looks to be true. 

I'm not expecting Lebron to improve or not improve. If he shows big improvements, then I think he is well on his way to becoming an MVP in a couple of years. If he doesnt show improvement, I'll be a bit skeptical of expecting him to make big improvements in the seasons after that. I dont know how anyone couldnt be skeptical about his improvement in the following seasons if he doesnt improve a lot next season. 

I think the physical maturity thing is legit though, it could go either way at this point. Lebron was obviously more ready to use his skills than McGrady and Kobe were. They also werent high picks in the draft, so they werent coming onto a bad team where they'd get a lot of playing time.


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> I think EHL has the stance that if Lebron doesnt make big improvements next season, then his theory about his physical maturity looks to be true.
> 
> I'm not expecting Lebron to improve or not improve. If he shows big improvements, then I think he is well on his way to becoming an MVP in a couple of years. If he doesnt show improvement, I'll be a bit skeptical of expecting him to make big improvements in the seasons after that. I dont know how anyone couldnt be skeptical about his improvement in the following seasons if he doesnt improve a lot next season.
> 
> I think the physical maturity thing is legit though, it could go either way at this point. Lebron was obviously more ready to use his skills than McGrady and Kobe were. They also werent high picks in the draft, so they werent coming onto a bad team where they'd get a lot of playing time.


Raptors were a horrible team when they selected McGrady at 9 and Charlotte wasnt that great either. But great post


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## Nevus

LeBron does not need to improve as much as Kobe or McGrady did from this point; I saw a projection once that if he improves that much, he will average 32, 13, and 11 in his prime. Obviously nobody seriously believes that is going to happen. Even if he doesn't improve as much, he won't need to in order to be as good as Kobe or better. 

But you can't count a guy's athletic ability against his potential anyway; when a guy has an athletic advantage, every new skill element he adds is worth more. 

LeBron already has the strength to post up any perimeter player in the league. If he learns a few more moves it will be a big step forward in his game. 

He has the strength, size, and quickness to be a top notch defender; if he learns the same defensive technique that other young players learn in the first few years, it will be a big step forward in his game.

I don't think he'll ever be as good of a shooter from long range as Kobe or McGrady but I don't think he needs to be. If he can be average from long range and work on his midrange and post up games, he'll be great.

Etc.


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## futuristxen

EHL--Jamal Mashburn and Allan Houston both were shut down last season after they were scorching the Cavs, Silas moved Lebron over, and he answered the challenge. When he locks in he can be a terrific defender. What we saw in the Olympics was him locking in, not just for a few plays, but for a few weeks. That has to be encouraging.

Lebron has the tools to get into Ron Artest territory on defense. He just has to want to do it. And I think he does. He looked quicker laterally in the olympics, and he said that was something he was going to work on this summer, so it looks like he is up to the challenge.

This kid's growth is off the charts. He's such a fast learner and he's the type that improves his game every time he plays. The Sky is the limit.


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## Cap

futuristxen,

No, both Kobe and Tmac had better jumpers than LeBron had at the same age. Unless LeBron improves his jumper noticeably this year, that’ll continue to be the case. Maybe the difference wasn’t huge, but it’s there. And I can’t see how defense can be argued, Tmac and Kobe were without a doubt better defenders at the same age. And the “they weren’t good enough to get minutes” argument is moot for both players; both played behind established All Stars. LeBron plays behind….no one. Give Tmac and Kobe 40 mpg at 19 years old and they’ll put up impressive stats. Not 20-6-6, but probably something like 17-6-3. 



> EHL--Jamal Mashburn and Allan Houston both were shut down last season after they were scorching the Cavs, Silas moved Lebron over, and he answered the challenge. When he locks in he can be a terrific defender.


Mashburn and Houston? Mashburn had no cartilage in his knee last season and may never play again. Houston missed how many games last year as a result of complications from microfracture knee surgery? Put ANY fast, athletic player on those guys last season and they’d still get shut down. 

And again, I don’t doubt LeBron _can_ become a great defender (he has the physical attributes of a Pippen or Artest), but defense isn’t just about your body, it’s about your attitude and mentality. LeBron hasn’t shown anything near that kind of defensive mindset. Someday he may, but there’s NO reason to believe he will, except wishful thinking. 



> What we saw in the Olympics was him locking in, not just for a few plays, but for a few weeks. That has to be encouraging.


For a few weeks? I’m not sure what your point is. Derek Fisher can come off the bench and be a great spark defensively for a few minutes a game for a few weeks over the summer against quick international guards too. I’m not sure what your point is. 

Look, as I’ve said before, this season will be very telling about how LeBron grows for the rest of his career. Assuming no injuries, if LeBron can’t make significant strides with his jumper and with his defense this season, that’ll be the first indication that he’s not a surefire MVP or GOAT within 2 years, as you claimed.


----------



## Cap

Nevus,

I agree with you on most of your points, but you’re still assuming LeBron has the work ethic, attitude, and mentality to dominate ala Kobe or Tmac, let alone Jordan. Can you honestly say you've seen strong indications that LeBron has those player's psychological strengths, especially Kobe or Jordan's? I certainly haven’t seen any such indications. 

But hey, it could certainly happen. I know I’ll enjoy every minute of a LeBron James with a Jordan/Kobe mindset.


----------



## TyGuy

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Nevus,
> 
> I agree with you on most of your points, but you’re still assuming LeBron has the work ethic, attitude, and mentality to dominate ala Kobe or Tmac, let alone Jordan. Can you honestly say you've seen strong indications that LeBron has those player's psychological strengths, especially Kobe or Jordan's? I certainly haven’t seen any such indications.
> 
> But hey, it could certainly happen. I know I’ll enjoy every minute of a LeBron James with a Jordan/Kobe mindset.


EHL could you say you saw those same things after one year of t-mac and kobe in the league? For goodness sake man, his sophomore season hasnt started yet and you are already trying to burry bron, because a lot of people think he will be better than your boy. Okay so you think Kobe and t-mac were better defenders, why dont you try and prove it? You keep saying they were better and this and that but you dont bring us any stats or some kind of indication that these things you are saying are true. Stop trying to convince yourself bron will never be better than Kobe, it will only drive you mad


----------



## Pure Scorer

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Nevus,
> 
> I agree with you on most of your points, but you’re still assuming LeBron has the work ethic, attitude, and mentality to dominate ala Kobe or Tmac, let alone Jordan. Can you honestly say you've seen strong indications that LeBron has those player's psychological strengths, especially Kobe or Jordan's? I certainly haven’t seen any such indications.
> 
> But hey, it could certainly happen. I know I’ll enjoy every minute of a LeBron James with a Jordan/Kobe mindset.


I can not understand how you could possibly think lebron doesn't have that mindset. Did you watch any of his highschool games? Did you watch his games for the cavs? The olympics even? You can see flashes of it every time he plays. He has the will to win. He wants it. In my opinion, that's what's going to set lebron apart from kobe/tmac. He is going to be much better on the defensive end because a) he's more athletic b) he has/will have a better basketball iq c) he wants it more.

You can see it in kobes game that what he wants is the spotlight, to be the main guy, to have the ball. Lebron wants the ball. He doesn't want to "have" it, he just wants it. And when he gets it he doesnt need to hang on to it like kobe does. He likes passing as much as, if not more then scoring. That's the mental difference. 

I think he will be considered a top 5-8 player after next season. 
(behind garnett/kobe/tmac/lebron/shaq/duncan)
And the only thing stopping him from being the best player in the league in 2005-2006 or 2006-2007 is a)clevelands performance/record b) kevin garnett.

Assuming Garnett will be averaging his ridiculous 25/15/5/2/1 (if he could create better off the dribble and finish in the clutch i would say there is not much hope for lebron being better than him) on a minnesota team which should be pretty decent. If minnesota and cleveland have equal records (which'd be tough) then lebron would need 27/8/8/1/2 to be considered equal to garnett. 

I think lebron, by 2006-2007, could put up those numbers, and maybe even better numbers defensively. 1.5-2 bpg, 2.5-3 spg isn't out of the question imo. 

Next year i expect lebron to average: 23 ppg, 7 rpg, 6 apg, 2 spg, 1 bpg.. It doesn't look like a huge improvement. But i also expect his fg+ to raise to about 44-45%, and about 2.5 to/pg, basically to become a more efficient player.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>TyGuy</b>!
> EHL could you say you saw those same things after one year of t-mac and kobe in the league? For goodness sake man, his sophomore season hasnt started yet and you are already trying to burry bron, because a lot of people think he will be better than your boy. Okay so you think Kobe and t-mac were better defenders, why dont you try and prove it? You keep saying they were better and this and that but you dont bring us any stats or some kind of indication that these things you are saying are true. Stop trying to convince yourself bron will never be better than Kobe, it will only drive you mad


Oy, barely worth a response, but OK; prove to me that Pippen was a better defender than Jordan. You can't, can you? Jordan has the DPOY, Pippen doesn't. Jordan has as many (maybe more?) All Defensive selections than Pippen. I can't prove it, but everyone agrees, Pippen was a better defender than Jordan. 

Your other comments don't deserve a response.



> I can not understand how you could possibly think lebron doesn't have that mindset. Did you watch any of his highschool games? Did you watch his games for the cavs? The olympics even? You can see flashes of it every time he plays. He has the will to win. He wants it. In my opinion, that's what's going to set lebron apart from kobe/tmac. He is going to be much better on the defensive end because a) he's more athletic b) he has/will have a better basketball iq c) he wants it more.


High School is a totally different type of basketball, and it's ludicrous to think it's even remotely relevant. Does anyone care how great Gerald Wallace was in HS? 

The Olympics? What did LeBron do besides play some good defense in spot minutes against slower international guards off the bench this summer? Why are people high on his Olympic defense this summer. Devean George can play great defense in spot minutes off the bench at the Olympics, so I don't see why you're high on LeBron's defensive performance this year. Lots of quick, fast and athletic players can be great defenders playing very few minutes off the bench against slower international guards. 

And yes, I watched him with the Cavs. 



> You can see it in kobes game that what he wants is the spotlight, to be the main guy, to have the ball. Lebron wants the ball. He doesn't want to "have" it, he just wants it. And when he gets it he doesnt need to hang on to it like kobe does. He likes passing as much as, if not more then scoring. That's the mental difference.


The "mental difference" I was talking about was defensively and in the clutch. LeBron hasn't shown anywhere near what Kobe, Jordan or Tmac have in that regard. Especially Jordan or Kobe.



> I think he will be considered a top 5-8 player after next season.
> (behind garnett/kobe/tmac/lebron/shaq/duncan)
> And the only thing stopping him from being the best player in the league in 2005-2006 or 2006-2007 is a)clevelands performance/record b) kevin garnett.
> 
> Assuming Garnett will be averaging his ridiculous 25/15/5/2/1 (if he could create better off the dribble and finish in the clutch i would say there is not much hope for lebron being better than him) on a minnesota team which should be pretty decent. If minnesota and cleveland have equal records (which'd be tough) then lebron would need 27/8/8/1/2 to be considered equal to garnett.
> 
> I think lebron, by 2006-2007, could put up those numbers, and maybe even better numbers defensively. 1.5-2 bpg, 2.5-3 spg isn't out of the question imo.
> 
> Next year i expect lebron to average: 23 ppg, 7 rpg, 6 apg, 2 spg, 1 bpg.. It doesn't look like a huge improvement. But i also expect his fg+ to raise to about 44-45%, and about 2.5 to/pg, basically to become a more efficient player.


As I said before, I'll wait and see how he does this season before I start saying he'll become a top 5/8 player by 2005-2006. It could happen, but I'm going to wait until the end of this regular season to make my judgment.


----------



## SoCalfan21

> Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Yao Ming, Andre Kirilenko, Carmelo Anthony, Lamar Odom, Amare Stoudemire, Elton Brand, Dirk Nowitzki, Jermaine O'Neal, Ron Artest, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, Tyson Chandler, Mike Dunleavy Jr., Mickael Pietrus, Gilbert Arenas, Richard Jefferson, Michael Redd, Richard Hamilton, Stephon Marbury, Mike Bibby, Baron Davis, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson...


these guys are all still better


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## RP McMurphy

> Originally posted by <b>TyGuy</b>!
> EHL could you say you saw those same things after one year of t-mac and kobe in the league? For goodness sake man, his sophomore season hasnt started yet and you are already trying to burry bron, because a lot of people think he will be better than your boy.


I agree, when a player is just 19, it's way too early to tell how good he'll be, you have to wait and see. Which is exactly what you're not doing, because you're already on here guaranteeing that LeBron will be the best player in the NBA in a couple of years.


----------



## Wagner2

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Not for a while. As I have said many times, his competition is much better than people are going to admit.
> 
> Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Yao Ming, Andre Kirilenko, Carmelo Anthony, Lamar Odom, Amare Stoudemire, Elton Brand, Dirk Nowitzki, Jermaine O'Neal, Ron Artest, Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, Tyson Chandler, Mike Dunleavy Jr., Mickael Pietrus, Gilbert Arenas, Richard Jefferson, Michael Redd, Richard Hamilton, Stephon Marbury, Mike Bibby, Baron Davis, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson...
> 
> Quite a few of these guys are going to step in Lebron James' way to the top. If he steps up and dominates the league and becomes the best player in the league, then that means one of two things, a) the stars at the top of the league, weren't as good as we thought they were or b) Lebron James is really the chosen one so to speak.
> 
> I am still of the opinion that as good as he is, he will not be the best player in the NBA for at least 5-8 years, if ever. Usually, when someone can bet on the field over one favorite, their odds are immense. I'll go with my odds.


I sincerley hope you are joking.

Lamar Odom?? Elton Brand?? Dwyane Wade?? Chris Bosh???? TYSON CHANDLER?!?!? DUNLEAVEY???? ARENAS???? MARBURY??? REDD???????? JOE f'n JOHNSON?? PIETRUS?????????????????????????!!!!!!!!
LeBron is better than all of those players right now, and I don't see him looking back. How can you bring Pietrus, Joe Johnson, Chris Bosh, etc. into this conversation. How did their names get mentioned in a conversation of the best players in the NBA? LeBron averaged 21/6/6 straight out of HS. He's a tremendous players who makes everyone around him better -- and he's still learning.


----------



## Johnny Mac

Lebron is definitely not better than Elton Brand right now. He is probably a top 25 player in the league though, which is amazing for a 19 year old.


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## futuristxen

Here's kind of what I think about the physical maturity arguement--I kind of agree with it, so far as I think Lebron will be able to reach his ceiling quicker than the high schoolers before him, his improvement is mostly going to be non-physical things that come with experience, and so I think his growth as a player should be very quick--but where I disagree with people who argue this is that just because Lebron can get to his ceiling quicker, doesn't mean he won't be better than those that came before. His ceiling IS higher than T-Mac and Kobe--possibly even KG. He's already bigger, faster, and stronger than T-Mac and Kobe--he's possibly the fastest player in the league, as well as the strongest perimeter player in the league. It won't take much for him to figure out how to use that advantage better.

When Lebron gets his post game going, he will be devestating on the offensive end. His advantage on the block against other guards is the same as Shaq's against other centers. Teams will have to guard him with power forwards, which will wreck rotations. And Lebron will just take 4's and run them off the court.

T-Mac and Kobe have to hit far more difficult shots than Lebron should have to hit in a year or so. Lebron doesn't need to hit hanging fadeways. He can just drop step and dunk on his man.

Imagine if he had actually grown to 6-10. Ha.

All of this is why Lebron is at most 2 years away from taking the throne. It's not going to take him 5 years to figure all of these things out. When Lebron will really get even greater will be once he's the experienced player in his prime playing against younger guys.


----------



## Amareca

The best players in the league will always be big guys with very few exceptions.
Lebron might win a MVP or two but he will probably never be considered the best player in the league.

Look at Kobe, he wasn't even close to being considered the best over Shaq, Duncan or Garnett...

Oh and Joe Johnson schooled Lebron at Gund last season. :yes:


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## TyGuy

> Originally posted by <b>RP McMurphy</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree, when a player is just 19, it's way too early to tell how good he'll be, you have to wait and see. Which is exactly what you're not doing, because you're already on here guaranteeing that LeBron will be the best player in the NBA in a couple of years.


What you're not doing is paying full attention to my posts. I never said a date and time when he will be, you are just assuming.

By the way ehl stop your my posts are better than yours and I shouldnt waste time doing this but i do anyway crap. Nothing is more obnoxious than someone like you who thinks he is above people, especially coming from a messageboard. Everything that comes out of your rectum you pass as fact, while trying to put down people by assuming you are better than them.


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## tpb2

I think some people here are mixing muturity of physical appearance with actual athletic output. In exercise science, these things are separate. There are other genetic factors that determine physical output than how one's body looks. Two men could look exactly the same in terms of build, but one could still be able to lift significantly more weight or jump significantly higher. Even if LeBron doesn't change his build, other more obsure factors could improve his athleticism. Males usually reach the peak physical output in the twenties. Thus, if the LeBron of today (in terms of physical build) was contrasted with the LeBron at 25 (with same physical build), most likely, the 25 year old LeBron will be able to out-perform today's LeBron. LeBron being well built now should in theory only enhance the the genetic factors at their peak.


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## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Here's kind of what I think about the physical maturity arguement--I kind of agree with it, so far as I think Lebron will be able to reach his ceiling quicker than the high schoolers before him, his improvement is mostly going to be non-physical things that come with experience, and so I think his growth as a player should be very quick--but where I disagree with people who argue this is that just because Lebron can get to his ceiling quicker, doesn't mean he won't be better than those that came before. His ceiling IS higher than T-Mac and Kobe--possibly even KG. He's already bigger, faster, and stronger than T-Mac and Kobe--he's possibly the fastest player in the league, as well as the strongest perimeter player in the league. It won't take much for him to figure out how to use that advantage better.
> 
> When Lebron gets his post game going, he will be devestating on the offensive end. His advantage on the block against other guards is the same as Shaq's against other centers. Teams will have to guard him with power forwards, which will wreck rotations. And Lebron will just take 4's and run them off the court.
> 
> T-Mac and Kobe have to hit far more difficult shots than Lebron should have to hit in a year or so. Lebron doesn't need to hit hanging fadeways. He can just drop step and dunk on his man.
> 
> Imagine if he had actually grown to 6-10. Ha.
> 
> All of this is why Lebron is at most 2 years away from taking the throne. It's not going to take him 5 years to figure all of these things out. When Lebron will really get even greater will be once he's the experienced player in his prime playing against younger guys.


A lot of what you say could or could not happen, and you know that. You could say some of the same things about Francis in his rookie year; that once he "learns" how to use his incredible athleticism and quickness, he'll be a lock down PG. Once he "learns" how to see the court and make better decisions, he'll be a great passing PG. Once he "learns" to play in the post with his strength, he'll have no problem scoring at will. 

Again, all of this is speculation. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if LeBron never develops an unstoppable post game or becomes an elite defender. Sometimes players are as good as they're going to be in their rookie seasons. Sometimes they improve a lot and become some of the greatest players of all time. You seem to be all hung up on LeBron's athleticism and his good court instincts as if it guarantees he'll learn how to use them at an MVP level someday. But Lamar Odom was once an athletic 20 year old with good court sense. He's now 24, and certainly not a top 5 player.



> Originally posted by <b>TyGuy</b>!
> By the way ehl stop your my posts are better than yours and I shouldnt waste time doing this but i do anyway crap. Nothing is more obnoxious than someone like you who thinks he is above people, especially coming from a messageboard. Everything that comes out of your rectum you pass as fact, while trying to put down people by assuming you are better than them.


I put down jockers who can't see past their "boy" and who like to tell others posters to support their argument when they fail to do that very same thing. It wreaks of hypocrisy and poor schooling.


----------



## TyGuy

> I put down jockers who can't see past their "boy" and who like to tell others posters to support their argument when they fail to do that very same thing. It wreaks of hypocrisy and poor schooling.


Lets get things straight here, I never in this thread said if and when I thought lebron would bet he best. All I did was comment on some things I disagreed with. It seems to be a common thing among Kobe fans to bash lebron and t-mac. The reason for this is because those two players challenge Kobe. 

So again you resort to attacking character, labeling people here that back lebron a "jocker" well same can be said about you and Kobe but I wont stoop to that level. There are ways of getting your point across without insulting or belittling people. You obviously have a major problem with that.

As for your comment about pippen, heres my answer. Statistically they were pretty close, however Jordan had a knack for coming up with an insane amount of steals. Pippen however was a better man on man defender than Jordan because he was taller and longer and thus was more diverse defensively. He was very quick latteraly so he could guard guys a little smaller and quicker, plus he could guard guys with bigger size like Magic.

So if we are going by stats Lebron actually burries t-mac and Kobe in their first season and actually keeps up with those two at teh current level. If you saw Lebron in the olympics, you saw a guy much quicker latteraly and more focused defensively. Will the carry over to a full NBA season? Who knows but i do know he has the tools to be possibly the best defensive wingman in the league.

Now just for kicks lets go to stats, Lebron actually led both players in blocks and was very close to Kobe in steals averaging 1.65. As for career highs after one season, LeBron registered 5 blocks twice! Kobe has only done that three times in his entire career. Kobe has had 4 6 steal nighs, while Lebron has already matched that career high in one season. Also mentioned in this thread are the lock down performance on Jamal Mashburn.

Ok so now you want to talk shooting, Kobe was a better shooter at the same age :laugh: I'll use Kobes third season as a marker since that’s when he really started seeing more minutes and of course he was older than a current Lebron. Kobe shot .267 from three point land in a 101 attempts, while Lebron on the other hand shot .290 with 217 attempts on the season. I know it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure this out but im going to go with Lebron being the better outside shooter at 19 :grinning:


----------



## RP McMurphy

> Originally posted by <b>TyGuy</b>!
> What you're not doing is paying full attention to my posts, I never said a date and time when he will be, you are just assuming.


You're right, I got you mixed up with SamTheMan67 again. I'm always getting you two confused, because you both have the same avatar, you both always post about LeBron, and you both struggle with punctuation. I'll try to not to get you mixed up again, sorry.

But still, if you're going to yell at people for making predictions about LeBron's career when he's just 19, at least be even-handed about it. When one guy just says he *probably* (not even definitely) won't be as good a defender as Kobe Bryant, you jump all over him. But a bunch of people here are saying he will *definitely* be the best player in the league in two or three years, and you haven't said a word to any of them. You're obviously too biased for your tirades to be taken seriously.


----------



## TyGuy

> Originally posted by <b>RP McMurphy</b>!
> 
> 
> You're right, I got you mixed up with SamTheMan67 again. I'm always getting you two confused, because you both have the same avatar, you both always post about LeBron, and you both struggle with punctuation. I'll try to not to get you mixed up again, sorry.
> 
> But still, if you're going to yell at people for making predictions about LeBron's career when he's just 19, at least be even-handed about it. When one guy just says he *probably* (not even definitely) won't be as good a defender as Kobe Bryant, you jump all over him. But a bunch of people here are saying he will *definitely* be the best player in the league in two or three years, and you haven't said a word to any of them. You're obviously too biased for your tirades to be taken seriously.


Just because we have the same avatar doesnt make us the same person. I also don’t always like to like to proof read posts like many people. This isnt an english class, and as long as my point is getting across and people understand, its all good.

As for the second part of your post, I dont see how this makes me biased? There is nothing wrong with not making any predictions, I chose not too because I honestly have no clue. I will tell you that i do think one day, possibly soon, he will be the best player in the nba. So just because i don’t attack certain people I’m biased? I'm not familiar with all your post activity, however im willing to bet you don’t attack everybody in an argument when siding with player a or b.


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## TyGuy

NP


----------



## SamTheMan67

> Originally posted by <b>RP McMurphy</b>!
> 
> 
> You're right, I got you mixed up with SamTheMan67 again. I'm always getting you two confused, because you both have the same avatar, you both always post about LeBron, and you both struggle with punctuation. I'll try to not to get you mixed up again, sorry.
> 
> But still, if you're going to yell at people for making predictions about LeBron's career when he's just 19, at least be even-handed about it. When one guy just says he *probably* (not even definitely) won't be as good a defender as Kobe Bryant, you jump all over him. But a bunch of people here are saying he will *definitely* be the best player in the league in two or three years, and you haven't said a word to any of them. You're obviously too biased for your tirades to be taken seriously.


go away troll


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## Nevus

I don't think there's any question that some posters in this thread don't like LeBron and some of them do. Please don't get personal or I'll close this thread. Thanks.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>TyGuy</b>!
> Lets get things straight here, I never in this thread said if and when I thought lebron would bet he best. All I did was comment on some things I disagreed with. It seems to be a common thing among Kobe fans to bash lebron and t-mac. The reason for this is because those two players challenge Kobe.
> 
> So again you resort to attacking character, labeling people here that back lebron a "jocker" well same can be said about you and Kobe but I wont stoop to that level. There are ways of getting your point across without insulting or belittling people. You obviously have a major problem with that.


Christ, are you really this dense? Here's the first sentence of your first post in this thread (http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=1525033#post1525033):



> those kobe fans sure fight ot the death on why LeBron cant possibly be as good as their boy.


You come out of nowhere and tell me that my "boy" Kobe is threatened by LeBron. Completely off topic, and if anything suggests you have issues with Kobe, Kobe fans, or some other weird problems. This wasn't even about just Kobe, I've made Jordan, Pippen and Tmac references. If you start pleasant conversation with me, I'll return the favor 100% of the time. If not, then I probably won't. 



> As for your comment about pippen, heres my answer. Statistically they were pretty close, however Jordan had a knack for coming up with an insane amount of steals. Pippen however was a better man on man defender than Jordan because he was taller and longer and thus was more diverse defensively. He was very quick latteraly so he could guard guys a little smaller and quicker, plus he could guard guys with bigger size like Magic.


So in other words, you admit my point is valid. That I can't "prove" Kobe or Tmac were better defenders at 19/20, like I can't prove Pippen was a better defender than Jordan, when it's obvious that Pippen was the superior defender throughout his career. 



> So if we are going by stats Lebron actually burries t-mac and Kobe in their first season


Already addressed by me a few posts ago. Give Tmac or Kobe 40 mpg at the same age and they wouldn't have averaged 5-3-3 or whatever the heck they averaged their first seasons. 



> If you saw Lebron in the olympics, you saw a guy much quicker latteraly and more focused defensively.


He was probably moving quicker laterally because Brown was on his butt about defense. LeBron didn't magically develop lateral mobility over a few weeks during the summer. 



> Will the carry over to a full NBA season?


Will what? He was showing off his defensive "prowess" and lateral mobility for spot minutes off the bench against slower international guards. It's pretty easy for any NBA player to do that off the bench. 



> Who knows but i do know he has the tools to be possibly the best defensive wingman in the league.


Agreed.



> Now just for kicks lets go to stats, Lebron actually led both players in blocks


Yeah, by 0.2, it's negligible.



> and was very close to Kobe in steals averaging 1.65.


Why are we talking about steals (or blocks for that matter) as if they really tell you much about a defender? Allen Iverson is an annual pick pocketer and he has never been considered more than a decent defender his entire career. Great defense is *a lot* more than steals or blocks. 



> As for career highs after one season, LeBron registered 5 blocks twice! Kobe has only done that three times in his entire career. Kobe has had 4 6 steal nighs, while Lebron has already matched that career high in one season.


And? 



> Also mentioned in this thread are the lock down performance on Jamal Mashburn.


That was also already addressed. 



> Ok so now you want to talk shooting, Kobe was a better shooter at the same age :laugh: I'll use Kobes third season as a marker since that’s when he really started seeing more minutes and of course he was older than a current Lebron. Kobe shot .267 from three point land in a 101 attempts, while Lebron on the other hand shot .290 with 217 attempts on the season. I know it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure this out but im going to go with Lebron being the better outside shooter at 19 :grinning:


Good lord. :laugh: I guess Jordan was a pretty sorry jump shooter in 98 when he shot 23.8% from the arc? :uhoh:


----------



## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> He was probably moving quicker laterally because Brown was on his butt about defense. LeBron didn't magically develop lateral mobility over a few weeks during the summer.
> 
> 
> 
> Will what? He was showing off his defensive "prowess" and lateral mobility for spot minutes off the bench against slower international guards. It's pretty easy for any NBA player to do that off the bench.
> 
> :


No Lebron didn't magically develop lateral mobility over a few weeks during the summer. More like a few months. And as already stated, that was one of his stated goals for the offseason. So it's no suprise that he is addressing it. This of course also speaks to your questions about Lebron "wanting it" on defense.

And then as for your last point, if you watched the olympics, you would have noticed that those "slower" international guards, were routinely blowing by all of our other perimeter defenders not named Wade or Lebron. Both of those guys got after it defensively and for you to try to wrestle a negative out of that, only underscores the lengths at which you are currently going to try and tear at Lebron...on a Cavs board no less. ha.


----------



## PauloCatarino

> Originally posted by <b>SamTheMan67</b>!
> 2-3 years IMO


Hmmm... don't know about that.

Considering someone "The best" is highly subjective, IMHO. afterall, KG won the last MVP (the greatest individual award possible) and still many people will put him below Tim Duncan... But i digress...

Let's see... who are the game's top players ?
there's Duncan, KG, Shaq, Kobe and T-Mac (in no particular order, although i believe the trio of TD-KG-Shaq ate above).

In a couple of years Shaq won't be his dominating self.
T-Mac and Kobe, although tearing up the league in the last couple of seasons, weren't recognized as "the best"...

So i'm tempted to say *the most likely bet * will be LBJ as "the best" when Duncan's, KG's, Kobe's and T-Mac's respective games start deteriorating... and that seems like way more than 2-3 years...
And this because i don't see anyone with LBJ's *potential* to be in that group in the near future...


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> No Lebron didn't magically develop lateral mobility over a few weeks during the summer. More like a few months. And as already stated, that was one of his stated goals for the offseason. So it's no suprise that he is addressing it. This of course also speaks to your questions about Lebron "wanting it" on defense.


That doesn't really address LeBron "wanting it on defense" when he wasn't playing any games we could see between the regular season and Olympics. 



> And then as for your last point, if you watched the olympics, you would have noticed that those "slower" international guards, were routinely blowing by all of our other perimeter defenders not named Wade or Lebron.


Please name those perimeter defenders. Oh right, the renown for his defense Stephon Marbury and who else? Exactly. 



> Both of those guys got after it defensively and for you to try to wrestle a negative out of that, only underscores the lengths at which you are currently going to try and tear at Lebron...on a Cavs board no less. ha.


What it illustrates is that you see what you want to see. You ignore the fact that LeBron averaged less than 10 mpg (not including the Angola game, which was a blowout). You'd like to forget that LeBron really wasn't playing defense for more than a few minutes at a time (he was fresh off the bench, wasn't asked to do anything offensively), and you'd like to ignore that the USA Team had no one else to turn to because they had to rely on Marbury for defense most of the time; a player that has never been more than an OK defender. At least Wade played some actual minutes, though even then, no one here is going to tell you that Wade is suddenly an amazing defender because of his play in the Olympics. 

Believe what you want to believe furturistxen. Just don't be surprised when this is bumped if you're wrong.


----------



## Cap

PauloCatarino, in some of these Cavs' fans minds, LeBron's already better than Paul Pierce. I'd say there's little point in asking them to be rational about how good LeBron is going to be in the future.


----------



## futuristxen

EHL, what more do you want to see? Lebron saying he wants to increase his lateral quickness so he can be better on defense, and then coming out as laterally quicker on defense, is pretty strong evidence. You just refuse to recognize anything that Lebron does, you're living in your own little bubble world...but you're right about one thing, this thread will get bumped.

You've been talking down to Cavs fans through the whole thread, so don't be suprised if Karma doesn't come back and bite you in the *** this season.

Don't try and piggy back on PauloCatarino's post just because he's a fellow laker fan, his post is what yours should have aspired to.

If you've got a stated problem with Cavs fans, then you're in the wrong place.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>RP McMurphy</b>!
> When one guy just says he *probably* (not even definitely) won't be as good a defender as Kobe Bryant, you jump all over him. But a bunch of people here are saying he will *definitely* be the best player in the league in two or three years, and you haven't said a word to any of them. You're obviously too biased for your tirades to be taken seriously.


This seems to be the theme of the thread. There is no way EHL can be wrong, because he never said Lebron *wont* be this or that, but the Cavs fans are saying he is *definitely* going to improve a whole lot and leapfrog into the top 10 by next season, and be the best by the season after that. 

Its possible that Lebron is just a freak who has peaked early, and what we've seen from him is most of what he'll be as a final product. Its also possible, like tbp2 pointed out, that he'll continue to mature into his body and become a legend within 5 years. To me, each scenario seems very possible at this point, which is what RP McMurphy, EHL and Paulo are saying I think. Its foolish to assume when we're talking about how a 19 year old will develop. Its up in the air.


----------



## Nevus

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> This seems to be the theme of the thread. There is no way EHL can be wrong, because he never said Lebron *wont* be this or that, but the Cavs fans are saying he is *definitely* going to improve a whole lot and leapfrog into the top 10 by next season, and be the best by the season after that.
> 
> Its possible that Lebron is just a freak who has peaked early, and what we've seen from him is most of what he'll be as a final product. Its also possible, like tbp2 pointed out, that he'll continue to mature into his body and become a legend within 5 years. To me, each scenario seems very possible at this point, which is what RP McMurphy, EHL and Paulo are saying I think. Its foolish to assume when we're talking about how a 19 year old will develop. Its up in the air.


That's reasonable... thank you. The point that needs to be made here is that there's no good in belittling other people for their predictions. We're all just guessing... nobody knows how LeBron is going to turn out.

However, in my opinion, predicting that a 19 year old player has nearly reached his ceiling, just one year out of High School, is taking quite a chance.


----------



## SamTheMan67

Yes I could also find out the cure to aids tomorow. This thread was created for cav fans just to mess around and make some crazy predictions so in a couple years we can bump them and see what happens , but of course certain posters always seem to show up in this forum to state their opinion and there certainly is nothing wrong with that , but we know you think we are homers and sometimes rightly so but you dont have to state your opinion against lebron every minute of the day.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> However, it's my feeling that predicting that a 19 year old player has nearly reached his ceiling after one year out of High School, is taking quite a chance.


Yes, that is foolish to predict that. Its not foolish to think that its perfectly possible for it to happen, in the same way that its perfectly possible that it doesnt happen.


----------



## SamTheMan67

I really hate it when people come into team forums and call us homers in our own threads .. What do you expect?? its a team forum..


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> EHL, what more do you want to see? Lebron saying he wants to increase his lateral quickness so he can be better on defense, and then coming out as laterally quicker on defense, is pretty strong evidence. You just refuse to recognize anything that Lebron does, you're living in your own little bubble world...but you're right about one thing, this thread will get bumped.[/
> 
> I'm not sure why you continue to ignore that:
> 
> 1) LeBron played 40 mpg in the NBA and less than 10 mpg in the Olympics against somewhat slower international players.
> 
> 2) Because of his vastly decreased minutes, LeBron was able to play with much more energy.
> 
> 3) Larry Brown asked him to devote himself to defense, and push the ball (when Brown put out the athletic squad) on offense.
> 
> Those three things greatly contributed to LeBron's seemingly quicker mobility. I'm not saying the guy didn't improve his lateral quickness this summer, I'm saying you're exaggerating his improvement by ignoring the above 3 facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've been talking down to Cavs fans through the whole thread, so don't be suprised if Karma doesn't come back and bite you in the *** this season.
> 
> 
> 
> No, mostly I've been talking down to a Cavs fan who randomly starting talking about Kobe as my "boy" and to you when you refused to believe LeBron would be anything but the best player in the NBA in 2 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't try and piggy back on PauloCatarino's post just because he's a fellow laker fan, his post is what yours should have aspired to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Paulo has been saying things that most people (including myself) have been saying for months and what you don't want to believe. Remember, you think LeBron will be the best player in the NBA in two years, while Paulo believes it's more likely that he'll be the best when today's best players start exiting their primes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you've got a stated problem with Cavs fans, then you're in the wrong place.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The only problem I have with Cavs fans are the ones that have already anointed a 19 year old as the best player in the NBA in no more than 2 years.
Click to expand...


----------



## Cap

Mac, yes, ditto.


----------



## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> The only problem I have with Cavs fans are the ones that have already anointed a 19 year old as the best player in the NBA in no more than 2 years.


Well deal with it. I'm not going anywhere. I'm thoroughly convinced about this kid. And I know I'm far from alone. Most folks with a basketball eye for talent agree with my assessment in general, though they may disagree some, on the amount of years it will take, give or take. Larry Bird said by year 5. I say it will happen even quicker after seeing how fast the kid improves and works on his game.

I've never seen any player learn things and correct weaknesses as fast as Lebron. It's my belief that we are in on the ground floor of something VERY special, a true genius of the sport. It's your loss if you're going to miss it because you're too hung on to your boy Kobe Bryant. Kobe and T-Mac don't give me anything new, Lebron brings something new. That intangible greatness that makes you watch him every moment you can because you know you're going to see something incredible that you've probably never seen before. I remember as a kid seeing Jordan do things that I didn't think were humanly possible, and after Vince Carter I thought I'd seen it all. But Lebron has raised the bar yet again, and it's just the beginning.

You just hope he can stay healthy. Having Michael Vick stolen from us last year was bad enough. Hopefully the same doesn't happen to Lebron.


----------



## futuristxen

> Those three things greatly contributed to LeBron's seemingly quicker mobility. I'm not saying the guy didn't improve his lateral quickness this summer


Then what are you arguing about? If you believe he increased his lateral quickness at all, then you have no grounds to continue to say he didn't. The reason it's important in the big picture that he did as even you admit, increase his lateral quickness, is that that was one of his stated goals going into the offseason(I don't know how often you read the Cavs board, but we had a thread earlier where Lebron had said what his goals were this summer) and for him to follow through on that, as well as show some interest in defense is very exciting. Yes it was only for a limited time, but now that Silas sees he can do it, he's not going to let Lebron get by with not doing it. If Silas can get Lebron's minutes down to 36 this year, he should be able to play both ends effectively. One of his big strengths is his stamina...


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Well deal with it. I'm not going anywhere. I'm thoroughly convinced about this kid. And I know I'm far from alone. Most folks with a basketball eye for talent agree with my assessment in general, though they may disagree some, on the amount of years it will take, give or take. Larry Bird said by year 5. I say it will happen even quicker after seeing how fast the kid improves and works on his game.


Larry Bird is probably one of the more optimistic LeBron supporters, and yet he still says at least 5 years. What does that say about your 2 year prediction?



> I've never seen any player learn things and correct weaknesses as fast as Lebron. It's my belief that we are in on the ground floor of something VERY special, a true genius of the sport. It's your loss if you're going to miss it because you're too hung on to your boy Kobe Bryant.


Well, me being "hung up" on a far better and more proven player is certainly better than riding an All Potential First Team 19 year old, no?



> Kobe and T-Mac don't give me anything new, Lebron brings something new.


The only thing new that LeBron has given anyone that isn't a Cavs fan, is amazing athleticism. I'm not sure what you find so novel about LeBron. If he was 28 years old no one would care. You're all hung up on his age. 



> That intangible greatness that makes you watch him every moment you can because you know you're going to see something incredible that you've probably never seen before.


Maybe *in the future*, LeBron certainly has the bball IQ, physique and youth to be something special. Whether he has the determination of a leader, ability under pressure, or the mindset of a defender is totally up in the air. 



> I remember as a kid seeing Jordan do things that I didn't think were humanly possible, and after Vince Carter I thought I'd seen it all.


The fact that you were hung up on Vince Carter pretty much proves my point; you're hung up on athleticism, dunks and youth more than anything else. 



> Then what are you arguing about? If you believe he increased his lateral quickness at all, then you have no grounds to continue to say he didn't.


No, my point from the beginning was that you were being so myopic about LeBron's lateral improvement this summer that you ignored other contributing factors (the three I listed).



> The reason it's important in the big picture that he did as even you admit, increase his lateral quickness, is that that was one of his stated goals going into the offseason(I don't know how often you read the Cavs board, but we had a thread earlier where Lebron had said what his goals were this summer) and for him to follow through on that, as well as show some interest in defense is very exciting. Yes it was only for a limited time, but now that Silas sees he can do it, he's not going to let Lebron get by with not doing it. If Silas can get Lebron's minutes down to 36 this year, he should be able to play both ends effectively. One of his big strengths is his stamina...


Oh sure, I agree. I'd love to see Silas use LeBron's improved lateral quickness to its maximum this year to see if it helps improve his D significantly, if at all.


----------



## SamTheMan67

I think it is realistic 3-4 years


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>SamTheMan67</b>!
> I think it is realistic 3-4 years


Yes, it is. *Never* is also realistic.


----------



## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, it is. *Never* is also realistic.


So is this year. If you're going to take that route.



> Larry Bird is probably one of the more optimistic LeBron supporters, and yet he still says at least 5 years. What does that say about your 2 year prediction?


Why is Larry Bird probably one of the more optimistic Lebron supporters? Because he disagrees with your probably never sentiment? I think the standard company line is 4 years. Which would put Bird as pretty conservitive, and my 2 year idea as optimistic. But only by 2 years. And I would imagine that if you asked Bird today, he would probably shorten those 5 years down, after having a chance to see him play for a season. Remember, Bird made his comments when Lebron was playing poorly in the preseason.

EHL, it's no biggie if you can't spot greatness. Some people can see it, some people can't. You probably think Sebastian Telfair is all hype too. That's okay. There are others like you. Our friend RP for instance, is also quite the naysayer when it comes to any young player.

And look. I was able to respond to you without abusing the quote button? Yay me.


----------



## Johnny Mac

When Tim Duncan was 19, nobody assumed he would be the best player in the league. Ditto with Shaq, ditto KG. It was a very good possibility, as it is with Lebron, but the assumption is what gets me. 

Elton Brand came into the league as a 20 year old, and hasnt really made substancial improvements statistically since then despite being very athletic, very strong and a very hard worker when he came into the league. He was just developed sooner. 

Stephon Marbury came into the league as a 19 year old. He has polished game and improved some, but not huge improvements. He went from 16 and 8 in 34 minutes as a rookie, to 22 and 8 in 40 minutes his best season. Thats because despite being young, he was developed physically when he came into the league. 

Its possible that Lebron is not like these guys, its also possible that he is.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> Why is Larry Bird probably one of the more optimistic Lebron supporters? Because he disagrees with your probably never sentiment?


I never said "probably never". Come on now, reading comp. 



> I think the standard company line is 4 years. Which would put Bird as pretty conservitive, and my 2 year idea as optimistic.


Bird has been openly positive about James, more than most, and the media generally believes LeBron will be the best player by the time he hits his prime. You don't hear many people in the media saying he'll probably be the best player in the NBA at 23. 



> And I would imagine that if you asked Bird today, he would probably shorten those 5 years down, after having a chance to see him play for a season. Remember, Bird made his comments when Lebron was playing poorly in the preseason.


Maybe, who knows. 



> EHL, it's no biggie if you can't spot greatness. Some people can see it, some people can't. You probably think Sebastian Telfair is all hype too. That's okay. There are others like you. Our friend RP for instance, is also quite the naysayer when it comes to any young player.


I'll be sure to bump this if his greatness isn't achieved. For your sake, I hope you're right, otherwise I'll be putting this in my sig. 



> And look. I was able to respond to you without abusing the quote button? Yay me.


You also failed to address several points, which I assume was because you were either too lazy or just admitted defeat. So no, boo you.


----------



## RP McMurphy

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> EHL, it's no biggie if you can't spot greatness. Some people can see it, some people can't. You probably think Sebastian Telfair is all hype too. That's okay. There are others like you. Our friend RP for instance, is also quite the naysayer when it comes to any young player.


Yes, and more often than not, I'll be right and you'll be wrong. It happens all the time that a kid comes into the league and people get all worked up about him. Usually he doesn't end up being as good as people think he'll be. If LeBron ends up being the GOAT, and I end up being "wrong" about him, that's OK with me, because there will be dozens of Jamal Crawfords where I was preaching patience when other people said he'd be a 28 PPG scorer.

I wouldn't call myself a naysayer about *every* young player, only the ones who I feel are overhyped. When people call a player like Darko, Kwame, or Chandler a bust, I'm first in line to tell people that the book on these guys isn't finished yet. I try not to get caught in the stampede to judge a very young player, whether it's good things or bad things that are being said about him.


----------



## Cap

> I try not to get caught in the stampede to judge a very young player, whether it's good things or bad things that are being said about him.


Good thinking, I think I'll take that approach in one way or another.


----------



## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>RP McMurphy</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, and more often than not, I'll be right and you'll be wrong. It happens all the time that a kid comes into the league and people get all worked up about him. Usually he doesn't end up being as good as people think he'll be. If LeBron ends up being the GOAT, and I end up being "wrong" about him, that's OK with me, because there will be dozens of Jamal Crawfords where I was preaching patience when other people said he'd be a 28 PPG scorer.
> 
> I wouldn't call myself a naysayer about *every* young player, only the ones who I feel are overhyped. When people call a player like Darko, Kwame, or Chandler a bust, I'm first in line to tell people that the book on these guys isn't finished yet. I try not to get caught in the stampede to judge a very young player, whether it's good things or bad things that are being said about him.


1) Jamal Crawford isn't done yet.  Marbury is very excited to play with him and has already said he's giving Jamal his point guard spot and wants to play an up tempo game, which plays to Jamal's strengths. Jamal is going to be a very good player for the Knicks. The Bulls have a nice track record of players leaving and becoming good to very good on someone else's watch.

2) Being anti-hype just for the sake of it, is as bad as buying into the hype just because. It's just the other end of the same stick.

And EHL, you're welcome to the quote. I think you should put it in your sig right now if you're so confident. Maybe make a little club out of it?


----------



## Mongolmike

After all this, I'd like to add my 2 cents worth.....:twocents:


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> And EHL, you're welcome to the quote. I think you should put it in your sig right now if you're so confident. Maybe make a little club out of it?


This is exactly the kind of comment that makes me believe you've been reading what you want to read. No one can know if LeBron is going to be the best player in the game by 2006. But you claimed that 2 years would be the max amount of time it would take. Quite different than saying "I could see LeBron doing it in 2 years, but 5 or 6 years is more likely", like most sane basketball fans have been attempting to convey to you. But I guess we can't see greatness. Heck, after seeing things you've never seen before from the great Vince Carter, surely LeBron will turn out to be the superior player. Let me guess, you were saying Vince Carter would be the best player in the game by about now, eh?


----------



## futuristxen

EHL, you can't deny that Vince stretched what you thought was possible. But I never thought he was going to be great. Ever. I'm an AI fan, always have been. I was merely talking about the ability of a player to do something that's never been done before on the court.

But I know this isn't something you care about, since you're a Kobe fan and Kobe can't think up anything he hasn't already seen Jordan do.

And I don't know why you're splitting hairs about how many years I think it will take, since you don't think it will ever happen. I could say 6 years and we still wouldn't be on the same page. But you just keep coming back for more. Don't worry, I'll keep serving it up for you too.
I take care of my Laker fans.

Respek.


----------



## SamTheMan67

Kobe will NEVER be the best player in the league ... i know its ot but hey


----------



## Hov

> Originally posted by <b>SamTheMan67</b>!
> Kobe will NEVER be the best player in the league ... i know its ot but hey


BLASPHEMY!


----------



## futuristxen

Who knew there were so many secret Laker lurkers on here. 

Jemel, I know you're out there. SHOW YOURSELF!!!


----------



## tpb2

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Who knew there were so many secret Laker lurkers on here.
> 
> Jemel, I know you're out there. SHOW YOURSELF!!!


They're checking up on LeBron. You know, preparing for his take-over of the NBA.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> EHL, you can't deny that Vince stretched what you thought was possible.


Hey, you live for dunks, we all understand.



> But I never thought he was going to be great. Ever. I'm an AI fan, always have been. I was merely talking about the ability of a player to do something that's never been done before on the court.


LeBron hasn't done anything that hasn't already been done on the court. Name something special he's done. What's that? Get really high in the air? Get up and down the court really fast? 



> But I know this isn't something you care about, since you're a Kobe fan and Kobe can't think up anything he hasn't already seen Jordan do.


Not many people can do things Jordan couldn't. Certainly, LeBron hasn't done a single thing that Jordan wasn't able to do. 



> And I don't know why you're splitting hairs about how many years I think it will take, since you don't think it will ever happen. I could say 6 years and we still wouldn't be on the same page.


Again, reading comp. Pay for a course, stand in on one, something. Clearly everything's been going over your head. 



> But you just keep coming back for more. Don't worry, I'll keep serving it up for you too.
> I take care of my Laker fans.
> 
> Respek.


Yeah, I can't wait to hear what you'll tell Laker fans next. Last year's "Spurs in 4 *****es!!!" prediction was pretty accurate.


----------



## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Hey, you live for dunks, we all understand.
> 
> * You bet I do old man. I'm what's wrong with basketball fans today. Be afraid.*
> 
> LeBron hasn't done anything that hasn't already been done on the court. Name something special he's done. What's that? Get really high in the air? Get up and down the court really fast?
> 
> * Whether it's a pass, a dunk, getting out on the break--no body has ever done it with as much speed, strength, and ability that Lebron has. There are only two other passers in the league on Lebron's level, Telfair and Kidd. *
> 
> Not many people can do things Jordan couldn't. Certainly, LeBron hasn't done a single thing that Jordan wasn't able to do.
> 
> * At 19 Jordan couldn't do half of the things Lebron can do.*
> 
> Again, reading comp. Pay for a course, stand in on one, something. Clearly everything's been going over your head.
> 
> * Maybe you should take a few writing courses, because if you're not communicating your meaning to me, then that's on you, not me. I've definitely got the educational background to decipher ****, but your writing isn't even getting to that level apparently. I love ya baby.*
> 
> Yeah, I can't wait to hear what you'll tell Laker fans next. Last year's "Spurs in 4 *****es!!!" prediction was pretty accurate.
> 
> * Yeah but I was right about your wack *** team going out like the ***** made suckers they are. Go cry to Mommy, but don't forget to tell her who sentchya.*


Damn we're bored.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Damn we're bored.


Haha, you gotta love it when someone loses an argument so badly that they resort to ebonics in a (failed) attempt to be funny.


----------



## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Haha, you gotta love it when someone loses an argument so badly that they resort to ebonics in a (failed) attempt to be funny.


Do you even know what Ebonics is? There's nothing Ebonics about "Damn we're bored". You gotta love it when someone has their head up their *** so far they've got no connection with the reality of their words.

I don't know how you think I've lost an arguement that is being waged upon the most subjective of grounds possible. 

Well actually I do know why you think that. Because it fits into your ******* air of superiority you've tainted this thread and this board with. The only reason anyone(especially me), is even bothering with you is because it's a slow couple of days. You're merely expressing fringe opinions as if they are somehow even approaching fact, which would be okay, I mean, I certainly type with an air of authority as well sometimes--but the fact that you are taking the next step and talking down to some pretty cool people on this board is a tad annoying. I feel bad for stooping to your asanine level of arguementation, because this is a good board, and we usually don't have these sorts of interactions--so with that said, say your last little petty barb, I won't respond to it, and we can let this board continue to rock on.


----------



## SamTheMan67

do you have any idea what ebonics is smartass? ...... please leave now


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you even know what Ebonics is? There's nothing Ebonics about "Damn we're bored". You gotta love it when someone has their head up their *** so far they've got no connection with the reality of their words.
> 
> I don't know how you think I've lost an arguement that is being waged upon the most subjective of grounds possible.
> 
> Well actually I do know why you think that. Because it fits into your ******* air of superiority you've tainted this thread and this board with. The only reason anyone(especially me), is even bothering with you is because it's a slow couple of days. You're merely expressing fringe opinions as if they are somehow even approaching fact, which would be okay, I mean, I certainly type with an air of authority as well sometimes--but the fact that you are taking the next step and talking down to some pretty cool people on this board is a tad annoying. I feel bad for stooping to your asanine level of arguementation, because this is a good board, and we usually don't have these sorts of interactions--so with that said, say your last little petty barb, I won't respond to it, and we can let this board continue to rock on.


LeBron = bust.



> Originally posted by <b>SamTheMan67</b>!
> do you have any idea what ebonics is smartass? ...... please leave now
> 
> 
> 
> It's not my fault you don't know what ebonics is.
Click to expand...


----------



## tpb2

"Reading Comp" ?!?!? 

Since when does futuristxen need a reading comp course? Why? As an educated person myself, it's not very difficult for me to sense intelligence in others. He is easily within the top tier of literacy on bbb.net, no doubt.


----------



## tpb2

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> LeBron = bust.


Obviously, you know this is not true.



> It's not my fault you don't know what ebonics is.





> ebonics
> 
> n : a nonstandard form of American English spoken by some Black people in the United States [syn: Black English, Black English Vernacular, Ebonics]


Can you specifically cite futuristxen's use of ebonics and how it affected the objective interpretation of what he was communicating?


----------



## Mongolmike

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Haha, you gotta love it when someone loses an argument so badly that they resort to ebonics in a (failed) attempt to be funny.


Dude... ebonics is a failed new age method of spelling words as they sound, I believe.

"Damn we're bored" would be spelt lik this: "dam weir bord". Sounds the same when you read it. I may be wrong on this, but that is my understanding of ebonics. What's yours?


----------



## SamTheMan67

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> LeBron = bust.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not my fault you don't know what ebonics is.


EHL = Bust(ed) on by futuristxen bam bam


----------



## Johnny Mac

He was probably referring to this as the ebonics: 



> Yeah but I was right about your *wack* *** team going out like the ****** made suckers* they are. Go cry to Mommy, but don't forget to tell her who *sentchya.*


I'm surprised so many people missed that, in EHL's defense.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> He was probably referring to this as the ebonics:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm surprised so many people missed that, in EHL's defense.


Yup, exactly.



> EHL = Bust(ed) on by futuristxen bam bam


:drool:


----------



## tpb2

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> He was probably referring to this as the ebonics:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm surprised so many people missed that, in EHL's defense.


But he quoted a specific line that did not even feature slang let alone ebonics. 



> Originally posted by EHL!
> 
> 
> Haha, you gotta love it when someone loses an argument so badly that they resort to ebonics in a (failed) attempt to be funny.


And using slang (like "yup") has no connection with losing a debate.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>tpb2</b>!
> But he quoted a specific line that did not even feature slang let alone ebonics.


Thats because futuristxen replied within the quote, then typed the small message at the bottom.


----------



## RP McMurphy

Wow, this thread sure went downhill in a hurry. I thought this was one of the best LeBron discussions in awhile, but apparently some people disagreed, so they turned it into a diatribe against certain posters, and an argument about what ebonics is.

Don't take it so personally that some people don't like LeBron. Sports wouldn't be any fun if everyone rooted for the same team.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>tpb2</b>!
> 
> 
> But he quoted a specific line that did not even feature slang let alone ebonics.
> 
> 
> 
> And using slang (like "yup") has no connection with losing a debate.


"Yup" isn't the same as "wack", "sentchya", "***** made suckers", etc. I think it's pretty obvious futuristxen gave up, and that's fine.



> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats because futuristxen replied within the quote, then typed the small message at the bottom.


Exactamento. 



> Originally posted by <b>RP McMurphy</b>!
> Wow, this thread sure went downhill in a hurry. I thought this was one of the best LeBron discussions in awhile, but apparently some people disagreed, so they turned it into a diatribe against certain posters, and an argument about what ebonics is.
> 
> Don't take it so personally that some people don't like LeBron. Sports wouldn't be any fun if everyone rooted for the same team.


Yeah, it's too bad. I don't know why it's so difficult to believe LeBron won't be the best player in the NBA in 2 freaking years. Or why it's so hard to believe he has physically peaked.


----------



## tpb2

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Or why it's so hard to believe he has physically peaked.


That's just plain wrong. You don't even know the science behind it. I read pages on physical development every day have actually asked this as a question to a professor. Please explain this new science you've discovered that changes what is established. The truth is that there are genetic factors involved that increase athleticism. LeBron could have exactly the same build as today, but when he's 25, there will be other factors involved that help LeBron use his build better. Thus, he will not change at all in appearance, but his physical athletism (strength, quickness, speed) will improve. There are many things going on beneth the surface.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>tpb2</b>!
> 
> 
> That's just plain wrong. You don't even know the science behind it. I read pages on physical development every day have actually asked this as a question to a professor. Please explain this new science you've discovered that changes what is established. The truth is that there are genetic factors involved that increase athleticism. LeBron could have exactly the same build as today, but when he's 25, there will be other factors involved that help LeBron use his build better. Thus, he will not change at all in appearance, but his physical athletism (strength, quickness, speed) will improve. There are many things going on beneth the surface.


I do know the science behind it, and one indicator of physical development IS build (appearance), and of course quickness and athleticism. Knowing that LeBron is a freak at the NBA level at just 19 (nearly 20), it's by no means outrageous to assume he might be as physically mature as he's ever going to be. Remember, not everyone stops maturing at 25, that's simply an average.

And yes, of course he may mature more. We really don't know.


----------



## tpb2

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> I do know the science behind it, and one indicator of physical development IS build (appearance), and of course quickness and athleticism. Knowing that LeBron is a freak at the NBA level at just 19 (nearly 20), it's by no means outrageous to assume he might be as physically mature as he's ever going to be. Remember, not everyone stops maturing at 25, that's simply an average.
> 
> And yes, of course he may mature more. We really don't know.


You are not separating what LeBron looks like from what is going on inside his body. Even if LeBron doesn't change his physical appearance (what you're judging him by) at all, he will most likely be more athletic later in life. For example, the size of a muscle is not the only thing that determines how strong it is. Many other factors that you can not possibly see will factor in heavily to determine how strong the muscle is. Even if LeBron does not change the size of his muscle at all, scientific research says that he will still be stronger later (for normal healthy males).


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>tpb2</b>!
> 
> 
> You are not separating what LeBron looks like from what is going on inside his body. Even if LeBron doesn't change his physical appearance (what you're judging him by) at all, he will most likely be more athletic later in life. For example, the size of a muscle is not the only thing that determines how strong it is. Many other factors that you can not possibly see will factor in heavily to determine how strong the muscle is. Even if LeBron does not change the size of his muscle at all, scientific research says that he will still be stronger later (for normal healthy males).


Yes, but still, build is one indicator. Speed and quickness are other indicators. LeBron already has those three things in spades. He may not internally mature, since he's hardly a normal male. But he may, who knows.


----------



## TyGuy

When people have to resort to saying somewhat is too physically gifted early on to make an argument against someone, you know they really don’t have much of an argument.

Like Bill walton said, if lebron wasn’t a freak athletically, he would still be a great basketball player. His court vision is un rivaled at the wing position, his basketball IQ is through the roof, he has handles, a good attitude and always wants to get better. People also make the mistake of calling him a bad shooter, he isn’t bad but rather inconsistent.

He has great rotation and touch on his ball, its his balance when he raises up for a jumper, that most of the time throws him off. I think its time to give it up ehl, you are bringing physical science into the equation to judge a basketball player. I don’t think I have seen you mention LeBrons mental abilities on the court. Larry Bird was a great basketball player but was not brought up in a discussion of the perfect specimen


----------



## tpb2

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, but still, build is one indicator. Speed and quickness are other indicators. LeBron already has those three things in spades. He may not internally mature, since he's hardly a normal male. But he may, who knows.


Build is not separate from speed and quickness. It helps determine them. 

In medical terms, LeBron is a normal male. He is healthy and doesn't have any disorders. When I said normal, it had nothing to do with him having an average physical make-up or not. That really doesn't matter actually.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>tpb2</b>!
> 
> 
> Build is not separate from speed and quickness. It helps determine them.


What's your point? 



> In medical terms, LeBron is a normal male. He is healthy and doesn't have any disorders. When I said normal, it had nothing to do with him having an average physical make-up or not. That really doesn't matter actually.


OK, average male then. LeBron is no average human male.


----------



## tpb2

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> What's your point?


Build may not improve. If build simply stays the same, speed and quickness will improve because the genetics of aging. Build is not used during a basketball game, but speed, strength, quickness, etc. are. 



> OK, average male then. LeBron is no average human male.


LeBron's dimensions are not average. They are far from average. But studies have shown that it doesn't matter. In all humans without genetic disorders their genetics will continue to increase performance athleticism years beyond LeBron's age.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>tpb2</b>!
> 
> 
> Build may not improve. If build simply stays the same, speed and quickness will improve because the genetics of aging. Build is not used during a basketball game, but speed, strength, quickness, etc. are.


Build gives you an idea of how strong you are, they're tied into each other. But yes, you learn to use your strength differently (better) as you age, I understand that completely. 

But as far as your quickness/speed comments, that's my point; can LeBron get any faster or quicker, or has he maxed out? If he did get quicker and faster, that would be a player the NBA has never ever seen before, so how likely is it that he'll improve his speed and quickness as he ages?



> LeBron's dimensions are not average. They are far from average. But studies have shown that it doesn't matter. In all humans without genetic disorders their genetics will continue to increase performance athleticism years beyond LeBron's age.


Those studies aren't conclusive, from what I've read (correct me if you've seen a recent study that proves otherwise). From what I've read, "performance" growth is wholly dependent on the individual (but an average can be attained of course) and highly unpredictable, and not necessarily tied to genetic defects or disorders just because some may stop growing at a young age. And really, do we even know if LeBron doesn't have genetic disorders that make him such a special human specimen? With his body at his age, it wouldn't surprise me.


----------



## Amareca

> Originally posted by <b>TyGuy</b>!
> 
> Like Bill walton said, if lebron wasn’t a freak athletically, he would still be a great basketball player. His court vision is un rivaled at the wing position, his basketball IQ is through the roof, he has handles, a good attitude and always wants to get better. People also make the mistake of calling him a bad shooter, he isn’t bad but rather inconsistent.


Bill Walton was probably one of the guys who said Penny Hardaway would still be great even without his athleticism and Penny had better court vision, passing skills etc than Lebron has right now.

Right now Lebron would be above average maybe without all that athleticism. Midrange game and defense just like overall shooting need major work still for him.


----------



## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>Amareca</b>!
> Penny had better court vision, passing skills etc than Lebron has right now.


Maybe to you he did. That's definitely not fact. Was Penny making the passes that Lebron already makes at 19? I think not. Lebron's athleticism is a very exciting add on to an already very exciting base.

There's a Michael Jordan comparison in that too. It wasn't until Jordan finally started losing his athleticism that people began to appreciate just how much mastery over the fundementals Jordan had developed. I think Athleticism both accentuates and masks skill. It's all in how you want to look at it.

It does have to be said though, you go through the injuries repeatedly that Penny went through, it's going to change who you are as a player. I don't think Penny ever recovered mentally from his injuries. So it's hard to say whether Walton was right or wrong. Because we're not even talking about the same person at this point.


----------



## Nikos

Penny's passing was incredible in the open floor. He wasn't a traditional PG in the sense of setting up the half court offense real quickly and passing like a John Stockton. 

But the one thing that distinguished Penny was passing creativity in the open floor. I would say his passes had a bit more flair than Lebron's did this season. But thats not to say Bron isn't an exceptional passer. For some reason I just remember Penny having a little more flair in that regard.


----------



## sheefo13

he is going to be a great dominate force. i will say from the age of 23 till about 31, he will be more than likely one of the top players, about half of that he will be the best. But we dont know yet. I cant imagine lebron being 30 years old. it just seems weird


----------



## Kapono2Okafor

3 years he will be the best!


----------



## JT

I give him 4 years to get these things accomplished-

1-Win MVP award and First Team honors.
2-Lead Cavs to championship and win Finals MVP there
3-Average 27/8/8

This is what the hype demands, but first he has to get his team into the playoffs. That's the first real challenge for him. If he does get the Cavs into the playoffs this year, he gets props. If not, he'll fall by the wayside, and people like futuristxen and Nevus will just have to look for the next superbly athletic guard to jock.


----------



## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>sherako</b>!
> I give him 4 years to get these things accomplished-
> 
> 1-Win MVP award and First Team honors.
> 2-Lead Cavs to championship and win Finals MVP there
> 3-Average 27/8/8
> 
> This is what the hype demands, but first he has to get his team into the playoffs. That's the first real challenge for him. If he does get the Cavs into the playoffs this year, he gets props. If not, he'll fall by the wayside, and people like futuristxen and Nevus will just have to look for the next superbly athletic guard to jock.


You still think this is all just about hype don't you?


----------



## SamTheMan67

too bad hes better than carmelo still huh sherakO?


----------



## tpb2

> Originally posted by <b>sherako</b>!
> If not, he'll fall by the wayside, and people like futuristxen and Nevus will just have to look for the next superbly athletic guard to jock.


This is always a good way to "argue"  . We can't predict the future, but it's people like futuristxen and Nevus that were right on LeBron before. I think the people that have a good record predicting LeBron's play have a better chance of predicting his play in the future.


----------



## SamTheMan67

Hmm i wonder what kind of dent he will put in the league this year and mabye crack the top 10


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

I think LBJ is top 10 right now for sure.


----------



## Nevus

Okay... so for the people who were saying that LeBron needs to show a big step forward this year to convince them that he's going to reach that level eventually, have you seen the big step forward so far that you were looking for?


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> Okay... so for the people who were saying that LeBron needs to show a big step forward this year to convince them that he's going to reach that level eventually, have you seen the big step forward so far that you were looking for?


Absolutely. Only 74 more games to go.


----------



## Pioneer10

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Absolutely. Only 74 more games to go.


Only 74 games for his FG% to drop into 30's so he can be just like Kobe Ooh he should try to more like that guy playing with Shaq instead. He seems to be the one actually making clutch shots this year.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> 
> 
> Only 74 games for his FG% to drop into 30's so he can be just like Kobe Ooh he should try to more like that guy playing with Shaq instead. He seems to be the one actually making clutch shots this year.


More like clutch shot, singular. 

FYI, don't hold it against me when I bump this thread. Seriously.


----------



## Pioneer10

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> More like clutch shot, singular.
> 
> FYI, don't hold it against me when I bump this thread. Seriously.


Actually two free thows to tie the game and one to win it would make that shots, which would be plural.

Plus, I can't really hold it against you since Nevus bumped the thread. Seriously.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually two free thows to tie the game and one to win it would make that shots, which would be plural.


Meh, one game then. 



> Plus, I can't really hold it against you since Nevus bumped the thread. Seriously.


Less than two weeks into the season? Yeah, seriously.


----------



## Pioneer10

Sorry, but the two week argument is weak in this situation. It's obvious Lebron has improved in nearly every facet in the game this year to . He might not be the best player in the league and he might not be able to play quite at the amazing level he is right now but the question that bumped this thread was whether Lebron has shown you anything that indicates he's on his way to be the best player in the league in the next few years. At the very least, he has shown everybody that he hasn't peaked even in physical terms (Charlotte dunk) which you tried to push in previous posts and that doesn't even take into account his skills (jump shot, etc.) which have improved.

Sorry for touching a nerve, by the way, didn't think pointing Kobe's poor FG% would put you into enough of a huff that you would post two erroneous comments


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> Sorry, but the two week argument is weak in this situation. It's obvious Lebron has improved in nearly every facet in the game this year to . He might not be the best player in the league and he might not be able to play quite at the amazing level he is right now but the question that bumped this thread was whether Lebron has shown you anything that indicates he's on his way to be the best player in the league in the next few years. At the very least, he has shown everybody that he hasn't peaked even in physical terms (Charlotte dunk) which you tried to push in previous posts and that doesn't even take into account his skills (jump shot, etc.) which have improved.
> 
> Sorry for touching a nerve, by the way, didn't think pointing Kobe's poor FG% would put you into enough of a huff that you would post two erroneous comments


Ha, don't kid yourself, your point still hasn't been close to proven. Two weeks in, still can't deny it doesn't prove anything, as my original contention was always how much of a leap LeBron would make during the _season_, as in a period of time spanning more than 13 days. 

Oooooh, such good bump material.


----------



## SamTheMan67

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Ha, don't kid yourself, your point still hasn't been close to proven. Two weeks in, still can't deny it doesn't prove anything, as my original contention was always how much of a leap LeBron would make during the _season_, as in a period of time spanning more than 13 days.
> 
> Oooooh, such good bump material.


Yeah when lebron keeps up a steady 25/6/8 on a good percentage while kobe is fighitng to shoot 40 percent


----------



## Pioneer10

It's funny that in this limited time, Lebron has looked like a better player then Kobe w/o Shaq. It most be really gnawing at EHL


----------



## Cap

Why would it gnaw at me when pretty much everyone outside of Clevland agrees Kobe is the better player by lightyears. 

*Pray* LeBron is your savior. Sit at the altar, and just pray.


----------



## Pioneer10

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Why would it gnaw at me when pretty much everyone outside of Clevland agrees Kobe is the better player by lightyears.
> 
> *Pray* LeBron is your savior. Sit at the altar, and just pray.


It is must gnaw at you, since you come into the Cleveland section for heaven's sake and try to goad Cleveland fans for praising the outstanding play of their first real superstar since Jim Brown. Also facts are facts so far this year Lebron has IMO played better then Kobe. This just isn't being noticed in Cleveland when writers on ESPN, CNNSI have all commented on well Lebron is playing and is a dark horse for MVP right now. I haven't heard any Kobe for MVP talk even being mentioned in the LA papers. So I don't think I have to "pray" to anybody when I can watch how good a player Lebron is already. Kobe maybe is better then Lebron just because he has playoff experience and is a better defender but your "lightyears" comment shows how much of a homer you are. There is no way Kobe is lightyears ahead of Lebron right. In fact he is not light years ahead of Wade, T-mac, or Ray Allen judged by his play so far without Shaq. 4 of 5 are leading their teams to better records then the Lakers while putting up comparable statistics to Kobe.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> 
> 
> It is must gnaw at you, since you come into the Cleveland section for heaven's sake and try to goad Cleveland fans for praising the outstanding play of their first real superstar since Jim Brown.


I've visited plenty other team forums. Sorry, you guys aren't that special. Of course, the only reason I'm posting here is because of LeBron, and I don't see what's wrong with that. I don't care for much of anyone else on Cleveland, except Snow, as players. 



> Also facts are facts so far this year Lebron has IMO played better then Kobe.


Debatable, but probably true. Of course, I've never even denied this, so again your statement becomes relatively pointless. 



> This just isn't being noticed in Cleveland when writers on ESPN, CNNSI have all commented on well Lebron is playing and is a dark horse for MVP right now.


That's besides the point really. Lots of national sportswriters were saying before last season that Melo would have the better rookie season and career, based on what he did in college. Clearly, that's hardly the case at this point (though of course, there's still lots of time for Melo to reach LeBron's level). 



> I haven't heard any Kobe for MVP talk even being mentioned in the LA papers.


I haven't heard Duncan for MVP talk in SA papers (or message boards) either. Is LeBron better than Duncan too Pioneer?



> So I don't think I have to "pray" to anybody when I can watch how good a player Lebron is already. Kobe maybe is better then Lebron just because he has playoff experience and is a better defender but your "lightyears" comment shows how much of a homer you are.


No, it's quite easily lightyears. Kobe has been playing at a certain level for years, in the regular season _and_ postseason. LeBron's best string of games in his career is arguably the first two weeks of this season. Unfortunately for "Cavs" fans, Kobe's been playing at that level since 2000. 

If at the end of the season LeBron is averaging what he's averaging now and then makes the playoffs and does the same thing, then we can start talking about LeBron being close to Kobe's level. And while a season like that from LeBron at age 20 would be absolutely spectacular and beyond my expectations, it _still_ wouldn't prove he can do it consistently. If careers were made in one or two seasons, we'd be talking about Kemp being the best 90's PF. 



> There is no way Kobe is lightyears ahead of Lebron right. In fact he is not light years ahead of Wade, T-mac, or Ray Allen judged by his play so far without Shaq.


Tmac? Ray Allen? Both these guys have proven far more than Wade or LeBron. You don't get it, do you. 



> 4 of 5 are leading their teams to better records then the Lakers while putting up comparable statistics to Kobe.


Haha, look at their schedules and the teams they've played. Two games against the sorry Bobcats for the Cavs, and Eastern conference fodder for both the Cavs and Heat, with a recent buzzer beater in OT by Wade. Hardly setting the world on fire. 

And we're still talking about *9-10* games into the season. Is Seattle better than the Spurs too, Pioneer?

Boy, you are really asking to get owned with all this garbage. The fact that you would even suggest that Wade or LeBron have proven as much as players like Tmac or Kobe is beyond ridiculous. There's no point in having a conversation with you if you believe otherwise.


----------



## Pioneer10

The point EHL which you don't seem to be getting is that Kobe is playing without Shaq for the FIRST time. This is the first time a lot of us can get to judge exactly how good a player he is. If you don't think Shaq has benefited Kobe's performance significantly over the years and if I have to "prove" that to you then you aren't worth much as a poster. 

Do you really have trouble this much with understanding other people's posts? My point was clearly that this year SEVERAL sg's/sf's have played at Kobe's unapproachable "lightspeed" level this year. Kobe as I've pointed out has as much to prove as anybody else since the Lakers are his team for the first ime

I actually have looked at the team's people have played bright guy. The Laker's wins have been against the Clippers, Houston (without T-mac), Denver (early season before they started gelling), New Orleans, and Atlanta. No wins against an above .500 team. Very impressive. If you want to claim you owned somebody you better come up with better argument then what you've been putting out


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> The point EHL which you don't seem to be getting is that Kobe is playing without Shaq for the FIRST time. This is the first time a lot of us can get to judge exactly how good a player he is. If you don't think Shaq has benefited Kobe's performance significantly over the years and if I have to "prove" that to you then you aren't worth much as a poster.


Except there's no way you can prove it. You see, your theory, so far, falls flat on its face when we all know (or, at least informed fans know) that Kobe's statistics without Shaq have went up across the board when Kobe played without Shaq during their tenure with the Lakers. So far this season, Kobe's stats are up across the board, especially in FTs, with FG% the only thing that's down so far. In fact, the same case you make for FG% can be applied to Shaq; so far Shaq is shooting 3.4% below his career average. But he's injured, right? So is Kobe. 

I'm betting Kobe's FG% will be very close to his career average of over 45%, if not higher, by the end of the season. You were probably the same person that said in 94 that Pippen would suffer without Jordan's presence on the court. And we all know how Pippen played in 94.



> Do you really have trouble this much with understanding other people's posts? My point was clearly that this year SEVERAL sg's/sf's have played at Kobe's unapproachable "lightspeed" level this year. Kobe as I've pointed out has as much to prove as anybody else since the Lakers are his team for the first ime


You have no idea how ridiculous you sound. You basically just said that Kobe's entire 8 year career doesn't prove much more than what several players have done 10 games into this season and the season before that. I suggest you read what you wrote again, I hope you simply miswrote something.



> I actually have looked at the team's people have played bright guy. The Laker's wins have been against the Clippers, Houston (without T-mac), Denver (early season before they started gelling), New Orleans, and Atlanta. No wins against an above .500 team. Very impressive. If you want to claim you owned somebody you better come up with better argument then what you've been putting out


My argument, so far, has been well ahead of anything you've been able to come up with. Because so far, you're claiming that playing with Shaq invalidates 8 years of excellence while 1.1 seasons of basketball without a great player (and 10 games of great play) proves that other player (Kobe) isn't that much better.


----------



## Pioneer10

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Except there's no way you can prove it. You see, your theory, so far, falls flat on its face when we all know (or, at least informed fans know) that Kobe's statistics without Shaq have went up across the board when Kobe played without Shaq during their tenure with the Lakers. So far this season, Kobe's stats are up across the board, especially in FTs, with FG% the only thing that's down so far. In fact, the same case you make for FG% can be applied to Shaq; so far Shaq is shooting 3.4% below his career average. But he's injured, right? So is Kobe.
> 
> I'm betting Kobe's FG% will be very close to his career average of over 45%, if not higher, by the end of the season. You were probably the same person that said in 94 that Pippen would suffer without Jordan's presence on the court. And we all know how Pippen played in 94.
> 
> 
> 
> You have no idea how ridiculous you sound. You basically just said that Kobe's entire 8 year career doesn't prove much more than what several players have done 10 games into this season and the season before that. I suggest you read what you wrote again, I hope you simply miswrote something.
> 
> 
> 
> My argument, so far, has been well ahead of anything you've been able to come up with. Because so far, you're claiming that playing with Shaq invalidates 8 years of excellence while 1.1 seasons of basketball without a great player (and 10 games of great play) proves that other player (Kobe) isn't that much better.


I actually have said in other posts that Lebron is not likely at Kobe's level because of his defense and his lack of movement w/o the ball. The question was asked how much till Lebron could be considered the best player in the game. I have no idea but I've been impressed (even with his lackluster game against the Knicks) that he is following a frightening trajectory of progression. He likely won't play at this high level but the progression has definitely impressed me and hasn't changed my mind that some point he will be considered the best player in the league.

The point I'm trying to get across to you is about Kobe is that not he is a great player. He is and I would be foolish to argue that. What I am arguing is I and you have no idea how truly great a player he is. The best perimeter players of this generation Vince, T-mac, Paul Pierce, even Grant Hill have all seen their performance and their bodies worn down playing the lone gunmen role. Penny never looked the same after Shaq and his body also wore down. I think Wade likely worked real hard at his game but he looks damn good with Shaq. 

Interesting you bring up Pippen I think Pippen was an outstanding player but how high can you rate him as a player. I have no problem rating him as one of 50th greatest of all time but is he better then other SF's from his era who didn't have Jordan: for example Bird, Worthy, or even 'Nique. Kobe now has the chance in his prime to show he should be amongst the greatest. He's played well but how much better has he played then other SG's/SF's? I definitely don't think he's played so well to consider that he is "lightyears" ahead of other top SG/SF's of which I consider Lebron definitely one even with his limited time.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> 
> 
> I actually have said in other posts that Lebron is not likely at Kobe's level because of his defense and his lack of movement w/o the ball. The question was asked how much till Lebron could be considered the best player in the game. I have no idea but I've been impressed (even with his lackluster game against the Knicks) that he is following a frightening trajectory of progression. He likely won't play at this high level but the progression has definitely impressed me and hasn't changed my mind that some point he will be considered the best player in the league.
> 
> The point I'm trying to get across to you is about Kobe is that not he is a great player. He is and I would be foolish to argue that. What I am arguing is I and you have no idea how truly great a player he is. The best perimeter players of this generation Vince, T-mac, Paul Pierce, even Grant Hill have all seen their performance and their bodies worn down playing the lone gunmen role. Penny never looked the same after Shaq and his body also wore down. I think Wade likely worked real hard at his game but he looks damn good with Shaq.


Honestly, I wouldn't doubt it at all that LeBron could be the best player in the league _someday_. And certainly, his play right now is sick, and arguably better than Kobe's, which by itself is just crazy. The only problem I have with your argument is that you're not putting enough weight on career accomplishments. Consistency is what makes most great players great. Guys like Kemp were great for a few seasons, but couldn't keep it up because they just didn't have it upstairs. We've yet to see if LeBron has what it takes upstairs to maintain a level of excellence over a long period of time. 

Also, I don't buy the argument that Kobe will breakdown now that Shaq is gone. The guy has played far more games throughout his career than all the perimeter players you mentioned, most of those coming in the postseason where play is extremely physical. He might be more prone to injury without Shaq than with him because he'll see more defensive attention than ever before, but he's a tough guy and in better shape than basically everyone in the league. If he breaks down, then I was wrong. So far he hasn't. 



> Interesting you bring up Pippen I think Pippen was an outstanding player but how high can you rate him as a player. I have no problem rating him as one of 50th greatest of all time but is he better then other SF's from his era who didn't have Jordan: for example Bird, Worthy, or even 'Nique.


Oh definitely, he was better than Worthy and Nique. Bird? No. His defensive abilities do not, IMO, make up for his inferior scoring, shooting and passing (passing less so, but still) to Bird's scoring, shooting and passing abilities. He also didn't have Bird's incredible killer instinct. But still, the guy is arguably the greatest defender of all time among defenders who played the 1, 2, and 3. That's saying a lot right there. Add in his very very respectable scoring efficiency (20 ppg on 48% shooting) and elite passing ability (6.0 apg) in his prime years, and you have a top 25 player of all time. 

And he was still able to do all those things without Jordan in 94 and without Jordan for most of 95. Look up his stats and awards those years, the guy didn't make a living off Jordan, he had game without him. 



> Kobe now has the chance in his prime to show he should be amongst the greatest. He's played well but how much better has he played then other SG's/SF's? I definitely don't think he's played so well to consider that he is "lightyears" ahead of other top SG/SF's of which I consider Lebron definitely one even with his limited time.


He's not lightyears ahead of guys like Tmac. Tmac's proven what he can do over an equally long period of time as Kobe. Hasn't proven it in the playoffs except for 2003, but still, the guy's proven, solid, and consistent like Kobe. Ray Allen too, he's still proven, solid and consistent like Kobe and Tmac, but obviously on a lower tier in terms of ability and production. 

Guys like LeBron, Wade, etc. are just not proven. They haven't played more than 1.1 seasons. We'll know a lot more about them after this season, and a good deal more after their 3rd season. Right now, all you can say about them is that they've had 10 great games at the beginning of the regular season. Because they haven't done what Kobe (and Tmac) have done over a period of several years, they indeed are lightyears behind those guys. Remember, Kobe and Tmac have averaged roughly 27-28/6/6 on 45% shooting for 4-5 seasons straight, including the playoffs. Wade and LeBron have done that for 10 games.


----------



## felka

LeBronze will never be the best anywhere. Since when bronze is better than gold?


----------



## Johnny Mac

Lebron has been playing well, but he obviously isn't close to the level Kobe is at. Lebron's numbers in 10 games look similar to the numbers Kobe put up in 2002-2003 for all 82 games. Its not about stats once you're that good, which is why I've always thought Duncan is better than Garnett. Duncan does so much that doesn't show up in the box scores, and I'm starting to see that in Kobe this year. I haven't seen so much of that from Lebron, yet, and I don't expect to for another couple years. Thats something that takes young guys years to understand. Lebron's biggest improvements this year have been him becoming more comfortable on the floor and that will continue.


----------



## Pioneer10

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> Lebron has been playing well, but he obviously isn't close to the level Kobe is at. Lebron's numbers in 10 games look similar to the numbers Kobe put up in 2002-2003 for all 82 games. Its not about stats once you're that good, which is why I've always thought Duncan is better than Garnett. Duncan does so much that doesn't show up in the box scores, and I'm starting to see that in Kobe this year. I haven't seen so much of that from Lebron, yet, and I don't expect to for another couple years. Thats something that takes young guys years to understand. Lebron's biggest improvements this year have been him becoming more comfortable on the floor and that will continue.


What exatcly are you not seeing from Lebron? He still has a few holes in his games but let's see if there are some questions that his performance so far can answer: Can he put a team on his back in crunch time to eeck out a win: Check. Can he score a ton of points: Check. Can he keep everyone involved at the same time because he has terrific court vision: Check. Can he improve his game during the off season: Check. Does he display an all around type of game that elevates the performance of his team and the other players around him: Check.


----------



## SamTheMan67

Pioneer just give it up man these Kobe jockers and Melo jockers will never budge no matter what bron does and us the same wont budge on our stance on bron so let the things play out and dont get riled up if John or EHL or someone else doesnt think lebron is good after a 15-22 night and his team beating the world champs by 20 pts


----------



## futuristxen

Lebron James is the best perimeter player in the game right now. Kobe Jockers ESPN have confirmed this.


----------



## Nevus

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Lebron James is the best perimeter player in the game right now. Kobe Jockers ESPN have confirmed this.


Right now, he is. If he keeps it up, and Kobe and T-Mac don't do something about it, it could stay that way.

We'll see how they all do in the playoffs... if Kobe even makes the playoffs.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Lebron James is the best perimeter player in the game right now. Kobe Jockers ESPN have confirmed this.


Yeah, too bad they forgot about defense. Hard to overlook the fact that the dude has allowed an average eFG of 53% to his defensive assignments so far this season, while Kobe has allowed an average eFG of 38%, AK 39.8%, Bowen 42.2%, and Wade 43%. 

Olay! :laugh:


----------



## Nevus

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, too bad they forgot about defense. Hard to overlook the fact that the dude has allowed an average eFG of 53% to his defensive assignments so far this season, while Kobe has allowed an average eFG of 38%, AK 39.8%, Bowen 42.2%, and Wade 43%.
> 
> Olay! :laugh:


Haha, sorry, did that actually make you laugh when you wrote that?


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> Haha, sorry, did that actually make you laugh when you wrote that?


Indeed it did my dear Nevus. Matador = olay.


----------



## Cap

And funny how stats like that speak for themselves. Not really much to say. 

But hey, the dude has the perfect body to become an elite defender, anything could happen. Hopefully he's not just the next Nique.


----------



## Captain Obvious

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, too bad they forgot about defense. Hard to overlook the fact that the dude has allowed an average eFG of 53% to his defensive assignments so far this season, while Kobe has allowed an average eFG of 38%, AK 39.8%, Bowen 42.2%, and Wade 43%.
> 
> Olay! :laugh:


Those stats are incorrect.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> 
> 
> Those stats are incorrect.


No, they're not, look them up.


----------



## Captain Obvious

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> No, they're not, look them up.


I did. Kobe's eFG% allowed is 41%. He plays 98% of minutes at the 2, giving up an eFG% of 41%. The other 2% of his minutes his eFG% allowed is 36%. You can't just average the two numbers like you did. When the percentages are properly weighted it works out to 41%. Also, Kirilenko's would be 38%. The others are relatively close.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> 
> 
> I did. Kobe's eFG% allowed is 41%. He plays 98% of minutes at the 2, giving up an eFG% of 41%. The other 2% of his minutes his eFG% allowed is 36%. You can't just average the two numbers like you did. When the percentages are properly weighted it works out to 41%. Also, Kirilenko's would be 38%. The others are relatively close.


This is eFG _against_ you're using, correct? Kobe's eFG against is actually 40.7%, not 41% (I know, that's picky). Add in the 35.7% from the minimal time he guarded 3's, and that's about 40% on average (less than 40.7%). 82games gives team percentages a player was on the floor, not actual per minute splits, so it's impossible to calculate exactly (unless I missed something). 

But point taken.


----------



## Pioneer10

Did anyone think Lebron would improve this quickly? I actually would be surprised now if he didn't average a triple double in a season in the future. Hell he might be considered the best player in the NBA at the end of this year. 

From Benedict Boozer post: his average over the last 6 games

27.7ppg 10apg 9.2rpg 2.5stls 53%fg 53%3pt


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> Did anyone think Lebron would improve this quickly? I actually would be surprised now if he didn't average a triple double in a season in the future. Hell he might be considered the best player in the NBA at the end of this year.
> 
> From Benedict Boozer post: his average over the last 6 games
> 
> 27.7ppg 10apg 9.2rpg 2.5stls 53%fg 53%3pt


No one could have imagined he would improve that much in 1 year...especially the shooting.

The real question is how much more is he going to improve? Offensively there isn't much left, maybe shooting but he's already very effective and you don't want him relying on the jumper too much. I'd also say he needs to get to the line more often (even with the lack of calls). 

Man-to-man defense seems to be the last hurdle for James. If he masters that at the same insane improvement curve, your talking legend status.


----------



## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> It's amazing that some of you think Lebron is the only 19 year old who can't possibly get any better.
> 
> Oh well. I guess you're just going to be in for a suprise next season and the seasons afterwards.


Boo yakasha. You guys suprised?


----------



## The OUTLAW

This is kinda off topic but people complain about the amount of hype that LeBron receives and use that as a reason to dislike him. But could you imagine the amount of press he'd recieve if he were in NY, Chicago or LA. It would be pure madness. If he played the same way in any of these places and the newspapers would go absolutely bonkers. I'm just glad we've got him.


----------



## SamTheMan67

Wow I forgot about this its so fun to read all the old posts


----------



## The OUTLAW

Whats so fascinating is that I always think I've seen what he can do and almost every game he gives you a little bit more. Not to mention you can still see spots where he can improve, which is what makes it even that much more astounding. He's this good and he still has room for improvement.


----------



## BigMike

> End of next season. Take it to the bank.



I am The Oracle.


----------



## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>Blazer Freak</b>!
> The 05-06 season. I think he will put up about 25-7ppg/7rpg/7apg. Hell, he could average 25/7/10 in 2 years. Jackson and Gooden will both be better and could score better, meaning more assists. This guy is gonna be great.
> 
> :fire: :fire:*Zips up flame suit*:fire: :fire:
> 
> BFreak.


LOL thats this year.


----------



## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> I really dont think bron will ever average more than 6.5 assists, which is still a decent figure. Even 6 would be great, its not a knock on his passing ability, its just if hes going to be scoring so much, he'd need alot of shots.
> 
> And on top of that, if hes going to be dishing out so many dimes, well damn, they'd have to run EVERY play through him and that makes the team way too predictable. Not to mention makes other team mates go cold.
> 
> Thats one of the reasons orlando does so bad, thats why decent players on the magic cant his a jump shot off a Tmac dish, because they all stand around cold as ice. Run a motion, run more screens get everyone involved with the passing now thats good basketball.  Not just standing around watching one person make it happen.
> 
> I think brons rebounding figures could really skyrocket, especially now that boozer is gone. Silas has told bron to hit the boards harder this year i heard.
> 
> 22.5 points 6.7 boards and 5.9 assists sounds good for a second year player. I'd be very happy with that if they can rack up more wins.


Shame on you


----------



## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> 
> 
> LeBron has to worry about passing Paul Pierce


Check


> Vince Carter,


Check


> Allen Iverson,


As great as AI has been playing, hes having a better season than him


> [Kobe and T-Mac.


Hes getting there


----------



## The OUTLAW

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> LeBron = bust.


It is pretty remarkable that even before this season began people were saying that LeBron was a bust. I don't really know what LeBron they were seeing but it is pretty hilarious to look back at this stuff.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> 
> 
> It is pretty remarkable that even before this season began people were saying that LeBron was a bust. I don't really know what LeBron they were seeing but it is pretty hilarious to look back at this stuff.


What’s more hilarious is that you actually took that statement seriously. :laugh:


----------



## Pioneer10

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Why would it gnaw at me when pretty much everyone outside of Clevland agrees Kobe is the better player by lightyears.
> 
> *Pray* LeBron is your savior. Sit at the altar, and just pray.


I actually think you have plenty of memorable lines in this thread. As EHL also stated in this thread 


> Oooooh, such good bump material


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> 
> 
> I actually think you have plenty of memorable lines in this thread. As EHL also stated in this thread


That's good bump material? Come on, at least quote something I got wrong. Er wait, what was it again?


----------



## Pioneer10

Well let's here are some of you're lines

I believe you were trying to make the case that Lebron has peaked athletically



> my belief is that physically he's already as mature as he's going to be, or close to it


I believe you were saying Lebron wasn't even Kobe's class


> Why would it gnaw at me when pretty much everyone outside of Clevland agrees Kobe is the better player by lightyears.


In regards to Kobe:



> I'm betting Kobe's FG% will be very close to his career average of over 45%, if not higher





> Also, I don't buy the argument that Kobe will breakdown now that Shaq is gone


First plantar fasciitis and now the ankle


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> Well let's here are some of you're lines
> 
> I believe you were trying to make the case that Lebron has peaked athletically


And how has this been disproven?



> I believe you were saying Lebron wasn't even Kobe's class


Yes, that was 2 weeks into the season. And? He still can't really play defense and still has quite a bit of season left, in addition to the playoffs.



> In regards to Kobe:


And? He'd need to shoot about 47-48% after the All Star Break to get back to his career 45% average. He nearly averaged that FG% post-ASB last season.



> First plantar fasciitis and now the ankle


Uh, he developed plantar fasciitis a couple weeks into the season. You don't suddenly break down a few weeks into the season because Shaq isn't on your team. Kobe has played a couple months in his career without Shaq. And he landed on someone's ankle, that has nothing to do with wearing down without Shaq. 

Were you really being serious with all that? :uhoh:


----------



## Kekai

He will be the best until he is 40 years old.


----------



## Nevus

Is anybody still not convinced that LeBron has made the big step forward in his second year that the skeptics were demanding?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Defense is the only thing keeping Lebron out of the top 5 at this point. I said before the season that he would edge close to the top 10 players in the league (like top 12 or something) and I'd say he is anywhere from 7th to 12th on that list for me. So he is a little better than I thought he would be. 

*Checklist:*
1. Lead team to playoffs
2. Get out of 1st round
3. Get out of 2nd round
4. Get out of 3rd round
5. Make finals
6. Win title
7. Win MVP
8. 1st team selection

Lebron needs to check off some of those things above before we start talking about him as the best. Some guys in this league have done those things several times. 

I think Lebron, as well as Amare, are on a fast track to becoming MVP type players, but I just hate when people try to hurry it along. Their list of accomplishments is still pretty short. I mean, rookie of the year, and that's about it for both guys.


----------



## Pioneer10

^ Let's see I can see people making an argument for the following players ahead of Lebron and I think could make a reasonable case:

TD, Dirk, KG, Kobe, Tmac, and Shaq. 

So that would place Lebron at 7. But after that considering the numbers Lebron is putting up moving him any lower would be harsh. Putting him at number 12 seems to me ludicrous.

I just don't get you're harshness towards young players. You've complained in other posts about Kobe getting too much attention when he was younger. It seems to me his career since he got hyped early has justified that attention. Sure player fall from grace (Vince Carter comes to mind) but certain players are special and from every indication Lebron is. If you don't like other people's hyping him just look at the stats. Only two other players I believe have averaged more then 20/7/7 over an entire season I believe. It's also interesting in another post you said you were convinced 100% about Wade but not about James. Your opinion doesn't seem very kosherto me


----------



## Geaux Tigers

> Originally posted by <b>Sir Patchwork</b>!
> Defense is the only thing keeping Lebron out of the top 5 at this point. I said before the season that he would edge close to the top 10 players in the league (like top 12 or something) and I'd say he is anywhere from 7th to 12th on that list for me. So he is a little better than I thought he would be.
> 
> *Checklist:*
> 1. Lead team to playoffs
> 2. Get out of 1st round
> 3. Get out of 2nd round
> 4. Get out of 3rd round
> 5. Make finals
> 6. Win title
> 7. Win MVP
> 8. 1st team selection
> 
> Lebron needs to check off some of those things above before we start talking about him as the best. Some guys in this league have done those things several times.
> 
> I think Lebron, as well as Amare, are on a fast track to becoming MVP type players, but I just hate when people try to hurry it along. Their list of accomplishments is still pretty short. I mean, rookie of the year, and that's about it for both guys.


I really agree with your checklist. However I dont believe he needs to do all of those to be considered. I think if he gets to the playoffs and gets a first team selection then you can defenitly make a case for him.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> I just don't get you're harshness towards young players.


What you call harshness, I call being fair to guys who have done it better and longer. I could easily flip it and say "I just don't get your willingness to boost young players" 



> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> You've complained in other posts about Kobe getting too much attention when he was younger. It seems to me his career since he got hyped early has justified that attention.


ESPN used to say Kobe Bryant is the best player in the league. Was he ever the best player in the league? Hell no, in my opinion, he is as close as he ever was to being that this year. 



> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> Sure player fall from grace (Vince Carter comes to mind) but certain players are special and from every indication Lebron is.


So Kobe has fallen from grace? That's ridiculous, unless you consider "grace" being praised by ESPN constantly, in which case, who cares? Vince is a guy who lost all will to attack the basketball, lost his athletic ability, and was never as good as advertised in the 1st place. 



> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> It's also interesting in another post you said you were convinced 100% about Wade but not about James. Your opinion doesn't seem very kosherto me


Are people making threads about how many years it will take Wade to be the best player in the league? No. If Lebron had the same expectations as Wade, I'd be absolutely convinced about Lebron too. Everyone isn't saying that Wade is the chosen one, the MVP, and all that despite the fact that he having a year pretty similar to Lebron. 

If Lebron's expectations are being a top 10 player, hell I'm convinced, because he is that already. Those are Wade's expectations, so yes I'm convinced about him. Lebron's expectations by fans, media, reporters, etc is being the best player in the league, and even all time. No, I'm not convinced he'll be that. I'm not saying he won't be that, I'm just not willing to commit that quick to a 20 year old.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

> Originally posted by <b>Jsimo12</b>!
> I really agree with your checklist. However I dont believe he needs to do all of those to be considered. I think if he gets to the playoffs and gets a first team selection then you can defenitly make a case for him.


1st team + playoff berth is about the same as what McGrady has done, and he isn't a top 5 player to some people, and if he is, he is 4th or 5th. If Lebron does those two things, you'll be able to make a case for him as much as you can McGrady, for being the best player in the league. I don't see a lot of people saying McGrady is the best player in the NBA.


----------



## Geaux Tigers

> Originally posted by <b>Sir Patchwork</b>!
> 
> 
> 1st team + playoff berth is about the same as what McGrady has done, and he isn't a top 5 player to some people, and if he is, he is 4th or 5th. If Lebron does those two things, you'll be able to make a case for him as much as you can McGrady, for being the best player in the league. I don't see a lot of people saying McGrady is the best player in the NBA.


Yes but its not predicated JUST on those two things. With LeBrons game and those two things then you could make a case for him is what Im saying...

Mcgrady would need more off of that list with this game being down this year and primarily scoring.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

> Originally posted by <b>Jsimo12</b>!
> Yes but its not predicated JUST on those two things. With LeBrons game and those two things then you could make a case for him is what Im saying...


Obviously that's just an opinion. I think McGrady has just as much game as Lebron this year, if not more. So with the same accomplishments, same calibur game, comes a similar placement.


----------



## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>Sir Patchwork</b>!
> 
> 
> Obviously that's just an opinion. I think McGrady has just as much game as Lebron this year, if not more. So with the same accomplishments, same calibur game, comes a similar placement.


McGrady's impact this year as well as he has been playing is not the same as Lebron no matter how you want to look at it. The thing I will say that has impressed me by leaps and bounds this year is Tracy's defense. outside of that

Lebron has done this
2004-05 Statistics 
PPG 25.0 
RPG 7.4 
APG 7.6 
SPG 2.39 
BPG .85 
FG% .497 
FT% .739 
3P% .373 
MPG 41.2 

while Tracy has done this
2004-05 Statistics 
PPG 25.6 
RPG 6.3 
APG 5.7 
SPG 1.69 
BPG .86 
FG% .425 
FT% .770 
3P% .329 
MPG 42.3 

Tracy is playing more minutes and his Eff is -5 worst, so help me out with what you have said above.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> Tracy is playing more minutes and his Eff is -5 worst, so help me out with what you have said above.


If you think efficiency is the end all to deciding the best players in the NBA, then I think you're perfectly in line to say Lebron is a top 2-3 player and better than McGrady. Of course, stats are situational, and Jeff Van Gundy has been holding back McGrady statistically. McGrady, in 02-03, led his team to the playoff while putting up 32/7/6 on 46% from the field. McGrady made the 1st team and made the playoffs. Some young guys that are now established superstars have also had monster seasons statistically early in their careers, but have come back down to earth. It's just a little perspective.


----------



## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>Sir Patchwork</b>!
> 
> 
> If you think efficiency is the end all to deciding the best players in the NBA, then I think you're perfectly in line to say Lebron is a top 2-3 player and better than McGrady. Of course, stats are situational, and Jeff Van Gundy has been holding back McGrady statistically. McGrady, in 02-03, led his team to the playoff while putting up 32/7/6 on 46% from the field. McGrady made the 1st team and made the playoffs. Some young guys that are now established superstars have also had monster seasons statistically early in their careers, but have come back down to earth. It's just a little perspective.


I dont think its an end all be all of at all. Many use it here, Im not one of them. but we are talking about this season and he has played better to date. I totally understand where you are coming from, that why I just threw that out there


----------



## knickstorm

never, even today as we speak there is no consensus "best player in the nba" kg is the most versatile, duncan the bes fundamentals. 

LeBron will never have everyone say "hands down he's the best" but he'll be in the "ohh he's the best all around" or "most versatile". but as long as there's someone like duncan and there will be, who isnt nearly as flashy, but gets the job done and wins, it will always be up for debate.


----------



## Nevus

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> never, even today as we speak there is no consensus "best player in the nba" kg is the most versatile, duncan the bes fundamentals.
> 
> LeBron will never have everyone say "hands down he's the best" but he'll be in the "ohh he's the best all around" or "most versatile". but as long as there's someone like duncan and there will be, who isnt nearly as flashy, but gets the job done and wins, it will always be up for debate.


I understand your logic but I disagree. I think unlike anyone in the league today, LeBron will eventually be recognized as the hands-down best player in the league. I think he'll win 4-5 MVPs.


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## Sir Patchwork

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> I understand your logic but I disagree. I think unlike anyone in the league today, LeBron will eventually be recognized as the hands-down best player in the league. I think he'll win 4-5 MVPs.


Lebron will have to be winning titles (more than one) to be considered hands down the best player in the game. That just doesn't happen that often.


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## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>Sir Patchwork</b>!
> 
> 
> Lebron will have to be winning titles (more than one) to be considered hands down the best player in the game. That just doesn't happen that often.


That's why he said eventually. It's his second year so he hasn't yet had the opportunity to rake in multiple championships. The team is still growing up around him.


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## Pioneer10

I think this thread deserves a bump: Lebron has been incredible this year


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## Benedict_Boozer

Yes he's putting up the numbers AND the wins thus far this year. If we can fight Detroit for the Central lead all year and finish with a top 2/3 record in the East I see him as the frontrunner for MVP.

Toughest comp likely will be Duncan as you know the Spurs will have a 60 win season.


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## KingoftheCourt23

I say he will be in top 5 for a while and then in 5-6 years he will be the one people say are the best. He wont be the best even in my eyes until he improves his D. once he gets the sweet stroke consistant and plays better D he will be the best. I say it happens in five.


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## DetroitDiesel

I think it will be hard for anyone to unseat AI in my book for a long time. Dude never takes a night off, plays with a passion that I've seen noone else play with in a long time.


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## Pioneer10

Now?


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## LBJthefuturegoat

Pioneer10 said:


> Now?


 :cheers:


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## Benedict_Boozer

He's certainly playing like it right now.


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## SamTheMan67

yep i was right


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## futuristxen

I still say the 30/6/6 year was the year he actually ascended. So I was right 

Remember when HKF was talking about Lamar Odom standing in Lebron's way to greatness? And Amareca was talking about Joe Johnson schooling Lebron. Man. If ever there was a sure thing, it was Lebron. But some people really like to be contrarian.


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## SamTheMan67

lol the lebron choking cavs suck thread makes me laugh even more. but ya the 31/6/6 year he shoulda won mvp by far


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## Pioneer10

lol forgot about this thread: what's amazing is that a guy whose playing a notch above everybody else and has freakin PER over 30 still has potential. While the jumper has improved he's still got room to grow in the post and becoming more consistent from midrange. Plust that FT% should be closer to 80+ percent rather then 70.


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## BlazerFan22

knickstorm said:


> never, even today as we speak there is no consensus "best player in the nba" kg is the most versatile, duncan the bes fundamentals.
> 
> LeBron will never have everyone say "hands down he's the best" but he'll be in the "ohh he's the best all around" or "most versatile". but as long as there's someone like duncan and there will be, who isnt nearly as flashy, but gets the job done and wins, it will always be up for debate.


I hate to say it but the best all around player in the NBA is Koby Bryant.:cheers:


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## Pioneer10

BlazerFan22 said:


> I hate to say it but the best all around player in the NBA is Koby Bryant.:cheers:


Ric Bucher is in the house


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## futuristxen

Where's Skip Bayless to tell us that Lebron is the worst player in the NBA and the Cavs would have a championship without him?


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## Pioneer10

^ Frankly, Bayless has nothing on Bucher's hagiographic like poorly thought out writing:



> Bucher: LeBron is bigger, faster and arguably stronger with every skill imaginable. But he doesn't have Kobe's fire or anything close to his ability to adjust at a moment's notice and general knowledge of the game. This whole comparison is at least a year and maybe two, too early


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=Roundtable-KobeLeBron

So let's see Lebron is bigger, faster, as skilled (not to mention scores as much as Kobes with just as much efficiency plus more assists, more rebounds, less TO's and wins with less) but somehow Kobe is still better because of some mystical qualities that don't show up in anything remotely measurable


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## futuristxen

Reading that it still amazes me that somehow Kobe has a better rep than Lebron as a defensive player. I have no idea where the idea that Kobe was a great defender came from. But at any rate, if I need a big play on the defensive end to win a game, I'm going with Lebron. He gets blocks, charges, steals. If he knows who the player you are going to is, and is allowed to lock in on him, that guy is flat out not scoring the ball. And defensive rebounding is a huge part of team defense, and Lebron obviously is better than Kobe at that too. Lebron does everything on the court that Tayshaun Prince does defensively. I wonder when the national media will start giving him credit for it?


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## Brandname

futuristxen said:


> Reading that it still amazes me that somehow Kobe has a better rep than Lebron as a defensive player. I have no idea where the idea that Kobe was a great defender came from. But at any rate, if I need a big play on the defensive end to win a game, I'm going with Lebron. He gets blocks, charges, steals. If he knows who the player you are going to is, and is allowed to lock in on him, that guy is flat out not scoring the ball. And defensive rebounding is a huge part of team defense, and Lebron obviously is better than Kobe at that too. Lebron does everything on the court that Tayshaun Prince does defensively. I wonder when the national media will start giving him credit for it?


When tools like Bucher and Bayless lose their jobs. So maybe never.


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## Pioneer10

NBA reporting is lot like political reporting. It doesn't matter how flip-floppy a guy like John McCain actually is on issues but because the DC "Village" of reporters likes him he is called a straight talking maverick. A member of the Village has to break with the pack or be told directly by someone the Village respects (i.e. Phil Jackson not Mike Brown) then things will change. The only other way is to win a title because the Village automatically believes that somehow makes you special. It's ironic if you read a guy like Bucher that the effect of a prime Shaq who at his peak was at a Jordan/Wilt level is somehow not even _mentioned_ with regards to Kobe. Part of the reason Kobe wanted to Shaq after all was he wanted to the be the main guy which he never was with Shaq.

Another way to look at this is how guys like Stein and Bucher and Bayless don't even try to engage with a guy like Hollinger on any point he makes based on the numbers on any player. He's a statiscian and not a reporter so the traditional Village reporters tend to simply ignore him (Read the article again, the rest of the dudes for the most part don't mention _any_ stats AT ALL). They've been taught to report stories that sell newspapers to the masses (i.e. heart, fire, will) who don't really understand the difference btw per game and per possession numbers or efficiency, etc. etc.


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