# Blockbuster Trade between Suns and Knicks



## Stevie B

Marbury and Hardaway going to NYK for Eisley/McDyess/Vujanic/Ward. Big contracts coming to NY.

Reported by WFAN in NY.


----------



## Johnny Mac

Is this for real? I seriously doubt it. SERIOUSLY. Why would the Suns trade Marbury? Mcdyess?

This makes no sense, if its true...which I have a feeling its not.


----------



## Johnny Mac

I apologize to the thread starter for claiming it was false.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1700818

I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS. 



> " The Knicks acquire Marbury and Penny Hardaway from Phoenix for Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, the rights to Milos Vujanic, two first-round draft picks, and cash, ESPN.com has learned. "


----------



## rebelsun

Ooh, interesting. The Suns are drowning right now. The Suns loved McDyess when he was there. If they take Penny's contract, it might be worth it for the Suns.


----------



## TrailofDead

here's the link:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040105/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bkn_suns_knicks_trade_1


----------



## rebelsun

Marbury in NYC, I think that is a perfect fit.


----------



## rebelsun

The Suns get Vujanic and 2 1st round picks also!!

Bryan made a gutsy move. The Suns were going nowhere. I can't believe they moved Penny's deal. Only in NYC.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> The Suns get Vujanic and 2 1st round picks also!!
> 
> Bryan made a gutsy move. The Suns were going nowhere. I can't believe they moved Penny's deal. Only in NYC.


Yea the picks will be useful, but you've got to wonder how well the Knicks could start doing with Marbury. They've got one of the best backcourts in basketball now, probably THE best backcourt in basketball behind GP/KB. Not to mention Mutombo is playing well. Losing McDyess doesnt hurt, and they basically upgraded their PG by 20x. 

Suns usually do a good job in the draft though, so we'll see. I'm sure this was a calculated risk and the Suns GM knows what hes doing.


----------



## arenas809

Wow Isiah is doing some work....


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Why would the Suns trade Marbury? Mcdyess? This makes no sense, if its true...which I have a feeling its not.


The Suns were drowning, and need cap space. Penny's contract was a nightmare and were lucky to get rid of it. I'm sad to see Marbury go, but this move is good for the Suns franchise. They get Vujanic, 2 picks, and McDyess in his last year. They will be in good shape, cap-wise next year.


----------



## MagnusPinus

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> The Suns were drowning, and need cap space. Penny's contract was a nightmare and were lucky to get rid of it. I'm sad to see Marbury go, but this move is good for the Suns franchise. They get Vujanic, 2 picks, and McDyess in his last year. They will be in good shape, cap-wise next year.


u are right.. but damn... STEPH!!!! is a phenomen... this trade is HUGE for the Knicks!!!! They have now a superstar... at the point!!! WOW:..


----------



## rebelsun

Knicks Starters

PG - Marbury
SG - Houston
SF - Van Horn
PF - Thomas
C - Mutombo

That is a very solid starting 5.


----------



## Johnny Mac

Are the Suns looking to get Kobe possibly?


----------



## Arclite

..

I think it is WAY too soon for Phoenix to pull the trigger on a deal like this. Yeah we're losing, big deal, we're having major injury problems, and at the beginning of the year our second best player (who is now our best) was having big time problems adjusting to the 15 lbs on muscle he put on during the offseason, and was playing about half as well as he is now.

Yeah it's good for cap next year I guess, but at the cost of moving arguably one of the top two points in the game? Why break up the best young nucleus in the NBA? Meh. 

First impressions anyway.


----------



## Stevie B

At first, everyone thinks this is a steal. But the Knicks won't be able to improve for the next three years. Without draft picks and with 60 mil a year in Penny, Marbury, Houston, KVH they are even more salary stuck. Suns have to draft well though.


----------



## Amareca

Barbosa was really impressive when he played.

They must have given up on the season and decided to finally get rid off Penny.

Suns get McDyess, Googs and Ward off of their cap.


The Suns now also have the Knicks pick this year which might be in the lottery and their own plus conditional first round picks of the Cavs and Knicks.

Time for Amare to be THE MAN when he comes back I guess. Marbury was fantastic and definately top2 PG when he was here but the one thing he didn't do well was getting the ball to Amare in the post or the pick and roll.


----------



## zerotre

WOW, crazy trade...I don't understand why Phx would do this trade but it sounds like they aren't content with an average team so they want to blow it up and start over. I dont think any of the players the suns picked up are going to be any use, the main reason they were picked up is because the contracts are expiring. My question to NY is how much money does the owner have? My gawd this guy keeps buying up players, do you really think this move is going to win a championship? I dont think so, its just another bandaid.


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> Barbosa was really impressive when he played.


Yeah, time to pick up Barbosa on your fantasy teams. He's already better than Ward and Eisley, IMHO, aside from being a turnover machine. One of the bright spots of the trade will be Leandro's increased PT. He averages over 5 steals per 48..


----------



## Zach

Only good thing out of this is 2 first round picks


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> ..
> 
> I think it is WAY too soon for Phoenix to pull the trigger on a deal like this. Yeah we're losing, big deal, we're having major injury problems, and at the beginning of the year our second best player (who is now our best) was having big time problems adjusting to the 15 lbs on muscle he put on during the offseason, and was playing about half as well as he is now.
> 
> Yeah it's good for cap next year I guess, but at the cost of moving arguably one of the top two points in the game? Why break up the best young nucleus in the NBA? Meh.
> 
> First impressions anyway.


It seems drastic bro, but w/ Marbury, Penny, and Matrix on board, the Suns would not be in a position to re-sign Amare when his rookie deal expires. The Suns will likely have to max him out, and were in cap hell. The more I think about it, the more I like the move. The Suns were going nowhere, fast. 

Kudos do Thomas for making bold moves and shaking up that lethargic franchise.


----------



## MagnusPinus

> Originally posted by <b>Zach</b>!
> Only good thing out of this is 2 first round picks


and Vujanic... i think a Barbosa and Milos backcourt could be funny to watch... (next year of course)


----------



## Johnny Mac

My Question is: 

With Pennys contract gone, and Mcdyess's contract expiring, and them no longer paying anyone big money, do they have enough money for Kobe? 

I think that its a brilliant move if they can get Kobe next season. That would give them Kobe, Marion, Amare, Knicks draft pick, their own draft pick, Joe Johnson, Barbosa, Zarko....

This trade may help both squads out bigtime.


----------



## Amareca

I don't think they have enough for Kobe yet but they are getting close to offer a max contract.

Who else is FA if they opt out?

Kobe? TMac?


----------



## Arclite

Ok, after some calculating it looks like the Suns are going to have $32,010,000 worth of players under contract next season. Considering the cap this year was around 42 mill, that could possibly be enough to land Kobe, especially if Phoenix can make another move involving White, Voskuhl, or Eisley.. Will Kobe want to though? 



Eisley's contract is a killer..


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> My Question is:
> 
> With Pennys contract gone, and Mcdyess's contract expiring, and them no longer paying anyone big money, do they have enough money for Kobe?
> 
> I think that its a brilliant move if they can get Kobe next season. That would give them Kobe, Marion, Amare, Knicks draft pick, their own draft pick, Joe Johnson, Barbosa, Zarko....
> 
> This trade may help both squads out bigtime.


I don't know if Kobe is in their plans, regardless, they were losing big time while paying guys huge salaries. The Suns are in rebuilding mode, and w/ picks and Vujanic in the trade, they have helped their future immensely.

Looks like JJ will be the man at 2 for the Suns now. Its all up to him; at least this season.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>Stevie B</b>!
> At first, everyone thinks this is a steal. But the Knicks won't be able to improve for the next three years. Without draft picks and with 60 mil a year in Penny, Marbury, Houston, KVH they are even more salary stuck. Suns have to draft well though.


they're already in one now, at least they're more talented. I think there's more draft picks and stuff invovled, those mentioned so far are just the principles. first reported on WFAN 660, mike and the mad dog time


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> Looks like JJ will be the man at 2 for the Suns now. Its all up to him; at least this season.


Agreed, he's going to have to step up big time, but he's been playing so much better under D'Antoni. I just feel like a dolt for dealing Barbosa in the Keeper League .


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> Ok, after some calculating it looks like the Suns are going to have $32,010,000 worth of players under contract next season. Considering the cap this year was around 42 mill, that could possibly be enough to land Kobe, especially if Phoenix can make another move involving White, Voskuhl, or Eisley.. Will Kobe want to though?


It might take Matrix to land Kobe, but if those numbers are true, it looks like PHX may be an option up there w/ the Clipps.


----------



## knickstorm

I think macej lampe is part of the trade too, NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


----------



## MightyReds2020

This is something nobody saw it's coming. I agreed with Sovereignz. It is waaaaay too soon to pull a trade like this. I can understand if they traded Marion or Stoudamire instead but Marbury? Now the Suns are without a PG and a C. They are either really high on Vujanic, or they see something special on Barboso. Colengelo really has a loooooong plan.


----------



## MagnusPinus

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> I think macej lampe is part of the trade too, NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


Nooooo.. U sure??? I think the Suns have already received a lot and this trade was made also to launch Sweetney and Lampe


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> I think macej lampe is part of the trade too, NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


What makes you say that? If that's true, the Suns will have four of the best young foreign prospects in the league.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> I think macej lampe is part of the trade too, NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


Do you have a link?


----------



## HoustonHoopa33

WOW..Great trade for the Knicks. Suns are rebuilding, but I thought they had a nice nucleus of Marbury/Stoudemire. But man, Isaiah is making some serious moves.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you have a link?


reported on WFAN 660 , everyone know Mike and the Mad Dog is THE SPORTS SHOW in NYC to lsiten to for the last 15+ years, and both of them are evaluating the trade and saying Lampe is part of the deal


----------



## MightyReds2020

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> Ok, after some calculating it looks like the Suns are going to have $32,010,000 worth of players under contract next season. Considering the cap this year was around 42 mill, that could possibly be enough to land Kobe, especially if Phoenix can make another move involving White, Voskuhl, or Eisley.. Will Kobe want to though?
> 
> 
> 
> Eisley's contract is a killer..


Did you count the 2 salary cap-hold for first-rounders?


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>MightyReds2020</b>!
> 
> 
> Did you count the 2 salary cap-hold for first-rounders?


They aren't going to have enough to sign Kobe unless they can deal Jahidi White or Howard Eisley most likely.


----------



## Richie Rich

I'm in shock, Isiah has the balls Layden couLdn't grow.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> 
> 
> reported on WFAN 660 , everyone know Mike and the Mad Dog is THE SPORTS SHOW in NYC to lsiten to for the last 15+ years, and both of them are evaluating the trade and saying Lampe is part of the deal


I really hope Lampe is part of the deal.


----------



## rebelsun

I've heard that Thomas really wants Artest. I wonder if he has enough value left to get him.


----------



## Amareca

Time for Amare to be the man.

The only knock on Marbury was that he wasn't pushing the tempo enough and didn't do a good job getting Amare the ball in the post and on the pick and roll.

They could have been Stockton and Malone 2k.


----------



## MagnusPinus

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> I've heard that Thomas really wants Artest. I wonder if he has enough value left to get him.


 I don't know about the contracts...but maybe Mcdyees, Williams and take in echange big contracts like Croshere...Can the Knicks away other future picks??


----------



## Coatesvillain

Now a question, does this mean Isiah is working on trying to trade Frank Williams? I remember reading that teams were interested in him, but Zeke wasn't willing to part with him because he was a better option at point than Eisley or Ward.

If Isiah wants Artest to help out the defensive intensity, would Williams be something that Indiana would be interested in? I know Cleveland wanted him for Darius Miles, but that would be a huge steal in favor of the Cavs.

I don't know if Zeke has guts that Layden didn't, it's just Isiah is a ton smarter than Layden and is offering teams something they might be interested in getting.

-Tim


----------



## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> I really hope Lampe is part of the deal.


On the bottomline on ESPN, it just showed Lampe was part of the deal.


----------



## RoyWilliams

> Stephon Marbury would return to his hometown as part of a multiplayer trade tentatively agreed to Monday by the New York Knicks and Phoenix Suns, sources told The Associated Press.
> 
> The Knicks would acquire Marbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybanski from Phoenix for Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Maciej Lampe, the rights to Milos Vujanic and cash, according to a source who is close to one of the players and spoke to the AP on condition of anonymity.
> 
> Two other sources close to the teams confirmed the tentative deal.


This is from yahoo and i dont see any picks mentioned.

link


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> On the bottomline on ESPN, it just showed Lampe was part of the deal.


see told ya


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Stevie B</b>!
> At first, everyone thinks this is a steal. But the Knicks won't be able to improve for the next three years. Without draft picks and with 60 mil a year in Penny, Marbury, Houston, KVH they are even more salary stuck. Suns have to draft well though.


The Knicks were already in a "can't-improve" situation. Yet, somehow Thomas moved some of his garbage (other than the picks) to Phoenix for their superstar.

I'm sorry, but for Phoenix, how many times does it have to be repeated? You don't move superstars for cap space. Exactly how many teams have made "We'll generate lots of cap space and build a winner with that!" work?

Chicago? Nope. Denver? Maybe...but they didn't deal a superstar to do it. Orlando? Nope, failed twice at it. Cleveland? Nope. (Their turn-around, if it comes, will be entirely due to one LeBron James...in the '90s, they tried the tank and rebuild and failed miserably.)

Maybe Phoenix will do it, but they're looking at a strategy that has pretty much killed franchises for years.

Colangelo made a terrible deal. He got too impatient and blew a fantastic core. Marbury, Marion and Stoudemire was probably the best young core in the game. Sure it wasn't working this season...but they've had injuries and coaching issues. You don't blow it up so quickly.

I think Isaiah Thomas has turned in a brilliant move and Phoenix has blown what could have been a championship contender in a few years (when Stoudemire rounded into a real player).


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> On the bottomline on ESPN, it just showed Lampe was part of the deal.


Wow. Zarko, Barbosa, Vujanic, Lampe.. and of course.. Trybanski.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> On the bottomline on ESPN, it just showed Lampe was part of the deal.


WOOHOO!!


----------



## RoyWilliams

But no picks right?


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> The Knicks were already in a "can't-improve" situation. Yet, somehow Thomas moved some of his garbage (other than the picks) to Phoenix for their superstar.
> 
> I'm sorry, but for Phoenix, how many times does it have to be repeated? You don't move superstars for cap space. Exactly how many teams have made "We'll generate lots of cap space and build a winner with that!" work?
> 
> Chicago? Nope. Denver? Maybe...but they didn't deal a superstar to do it. Orlando? Nope, failed twice at it. Cleveland? Nope. (Their turn-around, if it comes, will be entirely due to one LeBron James...in the '90s, they tried the tank and rebuild and failed miserably.)
> 
> Maybe Phoenix will do it, but their looking at a strategy that has pretty much killed franchises for years.
> 
> Colangelo made a terrible deal. He got too impatient and blew a fantastic core. Marbury, Marion and Stoudemire was probably the best young core in the game. Sure it wasn't working this season...but they've had injuries and coaching issues. You don't blow it up so quickly.
> 
> I think Isaiah Thomas has turned in a brilliant move and Phoenix has blown what could have been a championship contender in a few years (when Stoudemire rounded into a real player).


now now, milos and lampe arent garbage, wards not great, but not garbage either. EIsley is garbage and mcdyess is off the books after this year, now phoenix has 2 first rounders this year including their own lottery.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>RoyWilliams</b>!
> But no picks right?


no i still think the picks are there.


----------



## RoyWilliams

The link from yahoo doesnt even mention the picks.


----------



## junh

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> I've heard that Thomas really wants Artest. I wonder if he has enough value left to get him.


Yeah, Artest will be a PERFECT fit for the Knicks with his bruising, take-no-prisoners defensive style!

If this trade finalizes, this will make the Knicks-Nets cross town rivalry even more intense and dramatic since three former Net players (Marbury, Van Horn, Mutombo) are now starting for the Knicks! Marbury will no doubt want to prove that he BELONGS in NYC since this IS his hometown and he will no doubt want redemption against the Nets!

Playoffs anyone?


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> The Knicks were already in a "can't-improve" situation. Yet, somehow Thomas moved some of his garbage (other than the picks) to Phoenix for their superstar.
> 
> I'm sorry, but for Phoenix, how many times does it have to be repeated? You don't move superstars for cap space. Exactly how many teams have made "We'll generate lots of cap space and build a winner with that!" work?
> 
> Chicago? Nope. Denver? Maybe...but they didn't deal a superstar to do it. Orlando? Nope, failed twice at it. Cleveland? Nope. (Their turn-around, if it comes, will be entirely due to one LeBron James...in the '90s, they tried the tank and rebuild and failed miserably.)
> 
> Maybe Phoenix will do it, but their looking at a strategy that has pretty much killed franchises for years.
> 
> Colangelo made a terrible deal. He got too impatient and blew a fantastic core. Marbury, Marion and Stoudemire was probably the best young core in the game. Sure it wasn't working this season...but they've had injuries and coaching issues. You don't blow it up so quickly.
> 
> I think Isaiah Thomas has turned in a brilliant move and Phoenix has blown what could have been a championship contender in a few years (when Stoudemire rounded into a real player).


I believe the trade was worth it alone to rid them of Penny's contract. They need cap space, badly. Now they might have a shot at Kobe. They were not a championship team with everyone healthy, they were above-average, but realistically, could they win a championship? A move would have to be made sooner or later when Amare needs to be resigned.

The experiment failed. Time to start over. Great way to start over too. Vujanic, Lampe, 2 1st rounders. I'll take this one.


----------



## Stevie B

Lampe also? That wasn't reported at first but Mike and Dog have been including him. They sure did give away alot in this deal. Vujanic/Lampe/2 1st rounders? THats alot.


----------



## DetBNyce

Didn't Marbury and KVH have a little rift between them a few years back after Marbury got traded from the Nets?


----------



## rebelsun

What's the latest?

Is Lampe a replacement for the picks?


----------



## Arclite

There had better be some picks. That could be the most essential part of the package.

Phoenix is hands down the best drafting team in the history of the NBA. If you can find a team-by-team draft history, look at some of the players Phoenix has drafted from the 9-27 spot over the years. Off the top of my head - Marion, Amare, Nash, Finley, Person, Jayson Williams, Oliver Miller, Larry Nance, Thunder Dan, and Barbosa and Zarko look to be great picks as well.


----------



## RoyWilliams

Right now i think there are two trades being reported.

ESPN:The Knicks and Suns finalized a blockbuster trade Monday that will return Stephon Marbury to his hometown.


New York acquired Marbury and Penny Hardaway from Phoenix for Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, the rights to Milos Vujanic, two first-round draft picks, and cash, ESPN.com has learned.


The trade still requires NBA approval. The Suns will get the Knicks' first-round pick in the 2004 draft and a future conditional first-rounder.

and then 

Yahoo:-- Stephon Marbury would return to his hometown as part of a multiplayer trade tentatively agreed to Monday by the New York Knicks and Phoenix Suns, sources told The Associated Press. 

The Knicks would acquire Marbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybanski from Phoenix for Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Maciej Lampe, the rights to Milos Vujanic and cash, according to a source who is close to one of the players and spoke to the AP on condition of anonymity. 

Two other sources close to the teams confirmed the tentative deal


----------



## MagnusPinus

can u give me a link about Lampe that is included in the trade?


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>junh</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, Artest will be a PERFECT fit for the Knicks with his bruising, take-no-prisoners defensive style!
> 
> If this trade finalizes, this will make the Knicks-Nets cross town rivalry even more intense and dramatic since three former Net players (Marbury, Van Horn, Mutombo) are now starting for the Knicks! Marbury will no doubt want to prove that he BELONGS in NYC since this IS his hometown and he will no doubt want redemption against the Nets!
> 
> Playoffs anyone?


i dont want marbury coming here trying to be the man. I dont want to see him drive down the lane through 5 defenders and put up a lay up, i want to see him drive and kick it out to houston for 3, i dotn think that'll happen much if he just tries to prove he's the best thing thats happened since Ewing.


----------



## rebelsun

On ESPN Radio they just said Trybanski was part of it, Lampe also, but did not mention picks.


----------



## XStitchesX

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> I really hope Lampe is part of the deal.


Yep! he is....

The Knicks acquire Marbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybanski from Phoenix for Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Maciej Lampe, the rights to Milos Vujanic and cash

Who has a year left in their contract Ward or Eisley or Both?

and Ain't this the last season for Tom Gugliotta? I don't really know hardly anything cause I don't follow the Suns but if Ward,Eisley,Googs and Penny contracts end this season next, Suns can have alittle spree.


----------



## RoyWilliams

This is the link to yahoo:Link


> Stephon Marbury would return to his hometown as part of a multiplayer trade tentatively agreed to Monday by the New York Knicks and Phoenix Suns, sources told The Associated Press.
> 
> The Knicks would acquire Marbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybanski from Phoenix for Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Maciej Lampe, the rights to Milos Vujanic and cash, according to a source who is close to one of the players and spoke to the AP on condition of anonymity.
> 
> Two other sources close to the teams confirmed the tentative deal


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>XStitchesX</b>!
> The Knicks acquire Marbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybanski from Phoenix for Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Maciej Lampe, the rights to Milos Vujanic and cash
> 
> Who has a year left in their contract Ward or Eisley or Both?
> 
> and Ain't this the last season for Tom Gugliotta? I don't really know hardly anything cause I don't follow the Suns but if Ward,Eisley,Googs and Penny contracts end this season mext, Suns can have alittle spree.


Googs, Ward, and McDyess are in their last season, I believe; Eisley has a couple more years left.


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>XStitchesX</b>!
> 
> and Ain't this the last season for Tom Gugliotta? I don't really know hardly anything cause I don't follow the Suns but if Ward,Eisley,Googs and Penny contracts end this season mext, Suns can have alittle spree.


Gugliotta, McDyess, Ward, and Williams all come off. Eisley, unfortunately, is signed long term.


----------



## rebelsun

I would probably rather have 2 1st rounders, but I'll take Lampe if it'll get the deal done.


----------



## DetBNyce

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/basketball/nba/01/05/bc.bkn.suns.knickstrade.ap/index.html



> The Knicks would acquire Marbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybanski from Phoenix for Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, *Maciej Lampe*, the rights to Milos Vujanic and cash, according to a source who is close to one of the players and spoke to the AP on condition of anonymity.


This link doesn't say anything about draft picks.


----------



## knickstorm

dont like the trade. Penny is a horrible clubhouse presence , just ask brian hill. I will not trade Lampe, vujanic, 2 first round picks for stephon. now frank williams who has emerged, goes back to the bench.


----------



## Arclite

Right now I'm torn between wanting Lampe or the picks. The pick this year will probably be from 15-18, but Maciej was a projected top 7 up until the draft.


----------



## RoyWilliams

Are people missing my post about the differences in the two trades.


----------



## rebelsun

This shows that the Colangelos will not tolerate hitting the salary cap and being the worst team in the conference. Injuries or not, something had to be done.


----------



## Starbury03

Yes no Starbury is out of crappy Phoneix and will be in the finals in a couple of years. This trade is finallly a trade where the East got the better of side of talent. The Suns are really stupid for this trade and their previous trade with Bo Outlaw. Suns will be in the cellar for a couple more seasons.


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>RoyWilliams</b>!
> Are people missing my post about the differences in the two trades.


I guess.. hard to read all three pages of info before you post perhaps. It is starting to look more like Lampe is coming instead of two first rounders.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>RoyWilliams</b>!
> Are people missing my post about the differences in the two
> trades.


No, I saw it bro. I hope the trade is finalized so we can see the final players, picks, etc.


----------



## MagnusPinus

> Originally posted by <b>RoyWilliams</b>!
> Are people missing my post about the differences in the two trades.


i read it... i think Lampe shouldn't be traded by the Knicks buy Isiah has already demonstrated that didn't like the guy,,
We will see what happens.. anyway 2 first round pick + lampe would be too much... maybe they can take only a pick + lampe..


----------



## Arclite

ESPN is reporting that it is both Lampe and two first rounders.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1700818


----------



## Starbury03

Van Horn better get traded now Marbury was talking about how he couldnt handle New York when Horn got traded there he the next to go Marbury doesnt like him.


----------



## MemphisX

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> dont like the trade. Penny is a horrible clubhouse presence , just ask brian hill. I will not trade Lampe, vujanic, 2 first round picks for stephon. now frank williams who has emerged, goes back to the bench.


So would not trade 4 unknowns for one of the best PGs in the league? You guys robbed them, there was no way NY was ever going to be under the cap anyways. Hopuston and Van Horn were $30 + million on the cap then add in Eisley, Norris and Shandon Anderson....they were never going to get under the cap.

NY quite possibly has enough to win the East right now....

PG Marbury, Williams
SG Houston, Penny
SF Van Horn, Anderson
PF Thomas, Sweetney
C Mutombo, Harrington


----------



## gdog

Marbury and KVH together again? That'll be interesting.


----------



## rebelsun

Here is ESPN's updated story - 

New York would acquire Marbury, Penny Hardaway, and Cezary Trybanski from Phoenix for Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Maciej Lampe, the rights to Milos Vujanic, and cash.


The Suns also would receive two first-round draft picks -- the Knicks' first-round pick in the 2004 draft, which is unprotected, and a future conditional first-rounder, ESPN.com has learned.

Yes! Lampe and 2 1st rounders! I hope this one is true.

Trade


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>Starbury03</b>!
> Yes no Starbury is out of crappy Phoneix and will be in the finals in a couple of years. This trade is finallly a trade where the East got the better of side of talent. The Suns are really stupid for this trade and their previous trade with Bo Outlaw. Suns will be in the cellar for a couple more seasons.


the cellar? thats what colangelo hoping. he's willing to have his team go to the hell hole and hopefully get a high pick. if marbury was so good he wouldnt have been traded so much. bucls got rid of him on draft day, he couldnt live with garnett in minn, vanhorn and calipari and scott hated him of course he hated them too. and now he's been shipped out of Phoebix. if the deal included lampe and 2 first roudners and milos, i say the knicks are gonna have this really backfire.


----------



## RoyWilliams

Here is what i have seen so far.

Sportsline and yahoo have this.

The Knicks would acquire Marbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybanski from Phoenix for Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Maciej Lampe, the rights to Milos Vujanic and cash, according to a source who is close to one of the players and spoke to the AP on condition of anonymity. 

Two other sources close to the teams confirmed the tentative deal

ESPN has this:New York would acquire Marbury, Penny Hardaway, and Cezary Trybanski from Phoenix for Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Maciej Lampe, the rights to Milos Vujanic, and cash.


The Suns also would receive two first-round draft picks -- the Knicks' first-round pick in the 2004 draft, which is unprotected, and a future conditional first-rounder, ESPN.com has learned.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> Here is ESPN's updated story -
> 
> New York would acquire Marbury, Penny Hardaway, and Cezary Trybanski from Phoenix for Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Maciej Lampe, the rights to Milos Vujanic, and cash.
> 
> 
> The Suns also would receive two first-round draft picks -- the Knicks' first-round pick in the 2004 draft, which is unprotected, and a future conditional first-rounder, ESPN.com has learned.
> 
> Yes! Lampe and 2 1st rounders! I hope this one is true.
> 
> Trade


yea thats what wfan said from the get go, isiah definately overpaid, i can live with milos and 1 first rounder, i can live with lampe and 1 first rounder, i can live with 2 first rounders, not all 3 of em


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> 
> 
> So would not trade 4 unknowns for one of the best PGs in the league? You guys robbed them, there was no way NY was ever going to be under the cap anyways. Hopuston and Van Horn were $30 + million on the cap then add in Eisley, Norris and Shandon Anderson....they were never going to get under the cap.


What is the Knicks cap situation now? Marbury and Stephon must push it even further through the roof.


----------



## Amareca

If the Suns can use the 2 conditional picks from New York and Cleveland now to turn Jahidi White back into capspace or Eisley this will be a steal because they can offer TMac or Kobe a max contract this offseason.


----------



## Amareca

Marbury makes only little less money than Garnett if you look at it.

In the last years of his contract he will make 20+M$ per season.


----------



## RoyWilliams

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> What is the Knicks cap situation now? Marbury and Stephon must push it even further through the roof.


Marbury and Houston you mean? Not to mention KVH.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> If the Suns can use the 2 conditional picks from New York and Cleveland now to turn Jahidi White back into capspace or Eisley this will be a steal because they can offer TMac or Kobe a max contract this offseason.


Is T-Mac unrestricted after this year? He can't be happy in Orlando.


----------



## Arclite

NY is going to be paying about 75 million to their 7 highest paid players. Plus at least five other dudes. Most of them are signed long term.


----------



## Arclite

McGrady is not a free agent this year.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>RoyWilliams</b>!
> 
> Marbury and Houston you mean? Not to mention KVH.


Whoops. I meant the Penny and Marbury contracts. The Knicks are absolutely handcuffed cap-wise now.


----------



## Amareca

Yes he is , he will most likely opt out and test the market like Kobe.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> Marbury makes only little less money than Garnett if you look at it.
> 
> In the last years of his contract he will make 20+M$ per season.


That last extension he signed was huge salary-wise.


----------



## XStitchesX

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> Whoops. I meant the Penny and Marbury contracts. The Knicks are absolutely handcuffed cap-wise now.


Not to mention Mutombo's also since Knicks pick him off the waviers which means they also pick up his contract but I have no clue when it ends should be short.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>XStitchesX</b>!
> 
> 
> Not to mention Mutombo's also since Knicks pick him off the waviers which means they also pick up his contract but I have no clue when it ends should be short.


With their disregard for the cap, they should pursue Grant Hill!


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> Yes he is , he will most likely opt out and test the market like Kobe.


T-Mac and Hill are both signed through 2007, two years longer than Kobe's deal. I can't imagine there being an opt-out clause in his contract 3 years before it's up. 

I remember reading something on SI where he was thinking about leaving after next year, not this year.


----------



## schub

> Originally posted by <b>XStitchesX</b>!
> 
> 
> Not to mention Mutombo's also since Knicks pick him off the waviers which means they also pick up his contract but I have no clue when it ends should be short.


Knicks did not pick up Mutombo's existing contract. The Nets bought out that contract before the Knicks signed him:

"signing Mutombo to a two-year, $9 million contract that includes a team option for a third year."


----------



## rebelsun

Looks like the bottom line of this trade is Marbury finally playing at home and Suns preparing themselves to make a run at Kobe or T-Mac.


----------



## futuristxen

Holy **** or something. Isiah coming in and making the big deal right off the bat. Stephon at MSG everynight.... 

And for the Suns. Well this is waving the white flag. But they should be really good down the road.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> 
> 
> So would not trade 4 unknowns for one of the best PGs in the league? You guys robbed them, there was no way NY was ever going to be under the cap anyways. Hopuston and Van Horn were $30 + million on the cap then add in Eisley, Norris and Shandon Anderson....they were never going to get under the cap.
> 
> NY quite possibly has enough to win the East right now....
> 
> PG Marbury, Williams
> SG Houston, Penny
> SF Van Horn, Anderson
> PF Thomas, Sweetney
> C Mutombo, Harrington


4 unknowns for one of the best pg's???? gimme a break, if your one of the best players at your position, you are not traded 4 times by the time your 26. yea i bet thats what they said about the eddie griffin trade, 1 potential superstar for 3 unknowns, look how that turned out. THe point it you dont trade them just because their unkown. Last i checked, milos kicked our *** along with his boys in 2002. Van horn and marbury cannot co-exist. This trade will hurt the knicks in teh next few years. yea you said knicks cannot get under salary cap, so their way to improve the team is draft, now they cant even do that.


----------



## XStitchesX

> Originally posted by <b>schub</b>!
> 
> 
> Knicks did not pick up Mutombo's existing contract. He cleared waivers before they signed him to a new contract:
> 
> "signing Mutombo to a two-year, $9 million contract that includes a team option for a third year."


Oh my mistake...I thought they pick up off the waviers, Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Holy **** or something. Isiah coming in and making the big deal right off the bat. Stephon at MSG everynight....
> 
> And for the Suns. Well this is waving the white flag. But they should be really good down the road.


They cleaned out their roster, got good young players, picks, and cap space. I'd say the Suns did well.

I think Marbury will be awesome in NYC. I think Thomas believes in him, and a confident, comfortable Marbury is a scary player.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>schub</b>!
> 
> 
> Knicks did not pick up Mutombo's existing contract. The Nets bought out that contract before the Knicks signed him:
> 
> "signing Mutombo to a two-year, $9 million contract that includes a team option for a third year."


i recall watching msg and they listed top nba salaries, mutombo was right under garnett at liek 15 mill i think


----------



## RoyWilliams

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> 
> 
> i recall watching msg and they listed top nba salaries, mutombo was right under garnett at liek 15 mill i think


Wasnt that before he got bought out. The knicks arent paying him much now. They signed him, they didnt get him off waivers.


----------



## KokoTheMonkey

This trade came from absoultely no freakin where. Unbelieveable. I can't believe the Suns already tanked this season, and just dealed off their best player. Wow. And as for the Knicks, I think this is a great trade for them. Stephon will be loved in New York, and now the Knicks have their superstar to be a contender in the East. Unbelieveable. 


This has been one of the wackiest seasons/offseason ever. So many trades, so many players.


What's next, Kobe being traded for scraps?


----------



## schub

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> 
> 
> i recall watching msg and they listed top nba salaries, mutombo was right under garnett at liek 15 mill i think


well, the Nets are still paying him this year. If you saw that after he signed with the Knicks, it included the money he is getting from New Jersey.


----------



## The_Franchise

UNBELIEVABLE! There goes my Sheed to new york theory... Phoenix gets around $20 million expiring, Maciej lampe and Milos Vujanic this could definitely pay off for them in the future. Marbury wasn't going to be resigned after his contract expired next year so the Suns did the smart thing by getting young talent for him as well as dealing away Penny's horrendous contract. I can tell you one thing though, the Knick fans are loving Isiah right now. This doesn't automatically make New York a power in the East... they still lack alot of interior defense and Allan Houston/KVH are just too soft... maybe they can bring in a couple of enforcers now.


----------



## The_Franchise

It was fun while it lasted... the Rockets new arch-rivals should be the Nuggets.


----------



## Starbury03

thers a rumor on the bulls boards where the knicks get Sheed for Van Horn and Williams.


----------



## schub

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> UNBELIEVABLE! There goes my Sheed to new york theory...


Van Horn and Harrington for Wallace works.

or Van Horn and Norris.


----------



## rynobot

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was fun while it lasted... the Rockets new arch-rivals should be the Nuggets.


hmmm, the only reason the Suns and ROckets were rivals because of Marbuary and Francis being the top PG in the west and Amare and Yao being the top rookies. If the Rockets want a new rival it should include a good PG and a young big man to match up against Yao. Nene is a good young player but he won't be matching up against Yao.


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> Marbury wasn't going to be resigned after his contract expired next year


Marbury was extended long-term, through 2009 I believe.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> 
> 
> Marbury was extended long-term, through 2009 I believe.


He is signed a 3 or 4 year extension this summer.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was fun while it lasted... the Rockets new arch-rivals should be the Nuggets.


Yeah it was, but it didn't work out. Time to move on. No more Marbury, Matrix, and 'Mare. The future of the Suns may be the Milos and Maciej show; and hopefully Kobe


----------



## el_Diablo

> Originally posted by <b>Starbury03</b>!
> thers a rumor on the bulls boards where the knicks get Sheed for Van Horn and Williams.





> Originally posted by <b>schub</b>!
> Van Horn and Harrington for Wallace works.
> 
> or Van Horn and Norris.


if one of these trades happens, I'll just quit. even nash can't do something like this...


----------



## The_Franchise

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> 
> 
> Marbury was extended long-term, through 2009 I believe.


Yes, sorry about that, in the 2006-07 season the Knicks will be paying Allan Houston and Stephon Marbury $20 million each. That's the entire Clipper/Nugget/Jazz payroll for 2 players.


----------



## hobojoe

T-Mac can NOT opt out of his contract until after next year.


----------



## rebelsun

Suns players under contract next year - 

PG - Barbosa, Vujanic (if he leaves), Eisley
SG - JJ, Jacobsen
SF - Matrix
PF - Amare, Zarko, Lampe
C - White, Voskuhl

If they land Kobe or T-Mac, and can draft a quality post player (they may have 2 1st rounders and could trade up), the Suns could be a very good team next year, pretty early return for trading their best player.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> T-Mac can NOT opt out of his contract until after next year.


They could possibly trade if T-Mac demands it. The Suns will have lots of young talent and future picks = nice trade bait.


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> If they land Kobe or T-Mac, and can draft a quality post player (they may have 2 1st rounders and could trade up), the Suns could be a very good team next year, pretty early return for trading their best player.


They actually could have up to 3 first rounders, but if they want to clear enough space to go after Kobe they're probably going to have to ship off one or two of them to get rid of Jahidi and/or Eisley.


----------



## The_Franchise

I think the Suns would rely on drafting Gordon, Felton or even a Duhon/Devin Harris for their point guard problems... it is a very strong class for point guards this year, they can score the distribute. I think they want a proven inside presence like Mehmet Okur who they will likley sign in the offseason...


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> 
> 
> They actually could have up to 3 first rounders, but if they want to clear enough space to go after Kobe they're probably going to have to ship off one or two of them to get rid of Jahidi and/or Eisley.


I bet Dallas would have interest in a huge banger/rebounder like Jahidi. I don't know who would want Eisley.


----------



## Starbury03

but their rookie and wont bring that much next year.


----------



## macro6

great deal for PHX.

they get a unprotected first round pick

and their own, which may as well end up top 3 pick.


So PHX should be winnning again by next year.





i dunno understand why new york doesnt rebuild.....


----------



## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> great deal for PHX.
> 
> they get a unprotected first round pick
> 
> and their own, which may as well end up top 3 pick.
> 
> 
> So PHX should be winnning again by next year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i dunno understand why new york doesnt rebuild.....


New York can't really rebuild, because noone wants to take on those horrible contracts and now that the've added Marbury, I doubt that their pick will be that high now.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> I think the Suns would rely on drafting Gordon, Felton or even a Duhon/Devin Harris for their point guard problems... it is a very strong class for point guards this year, they can score the distribute. I think they want a proven inside presence like Mehmet Okur who they will likley sign in the offseason...


I think the Suns should go big. They traded a future 1st rounder for Barbosa, and now have Vujanic. I hope the Suns go big...about 7'5, 300lb big  

If they can land Kobe, I think Pavel is worth the risk. He wouldn't have much asked of him - just to defend early. I think at worst he will be a 7'5 Sagana Diop (if healthy, that is.)


----------



## reHEATed

what an unexpeced trade....milos, lampe and 2 firsts is pretty good compensation...not enough imo though...at least u got rid of penny


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> great deal for PHX.
> 
> they get a unprotected first round pick
> 
> and their own, which may as well end up top 3 pick.
> 
> 
> So PHX should be winnning again by next year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i dunno understand why new york doesnt rebuild.....



No rebuilding in NYC. You have to win, and you have to win now.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> what an unexpeced trade....milos, lampe and 2 firsts is pretty good compensation...not enough imo though...at keast u got rid of penny


Penny's deal was a huge anchor that was hurting the franchise. The trade is worth it almost alone to remove his contract. The Suns are in a great position now. Great job, Bryan.


----------



## The_Franchise

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> I think the Suns should go big. They traded a future 1st rounder for Barbosa, and now have Vujanic. I hope the Suns go big...about 7'5, 300lb big
> 
> If they can land Kobe, I think Pavel is worth the risk. He wouldn't have much asked of him - just to defend early. I think at worst he will be a 7'5 Sagana Diop (if healthy, that is.)


Potential that big doesn't drop out of the top 3, and I doubt Phoenix will be able to trade up to get someone of Pavel's calibre (A Dwight Howard or Okafor). Getting Gordon with their first pick would be great, and then maybe a Ha Seung Jin with a mid-first rounder.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> 
> 
> Potential that big doesn't drop out of the top 3, and I doubt Phoenix will be able to trade up to get someone of Pavel's calibre (A Dwight Howard or Okafor). Getting Gordon with their first pick would be great, and then maybe a Ha Seung Jin with a mid-first rounder.


It is wishful thinking, but you gotta remember Pavel is very unpolished, he is much closer to Sagana Diop skill than Yao Ming skill. I hope the Suns could land him; Okafor would be a nice consolation pick. He would make them win very soon, but he does not have the unbelievable potential of Pavel.

You also gotta remember where the Suns are now. They are terrible and will likely not improve a whole lot. They may win the lottery with their own pick!

If they don't win the lottery and are unable to trade up, I wouldn't mind Gordon and Ha.


----------



## The_Franchise

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> No rebuilding in NYC. You have to win, and you have to win now.


Exactly... with untradeable contract's such as Allan Houston and $100 million of cap 'cloggage' (Shandon Anderson, Othella Harrington, even KVH), Isiah didn't come to New York so he could reset the franchise. Knick fans have been suffering for a long time and bringing in a superstar like Marbury creates plenty of interest, and the average fan is very happy with their owner. David Aldridge was absolutely wrong when he said New York could expect to rebuild and in 2 or 3 years be a contending force... did they expect to just play bad basketball and stockpile young talent while KVH and Houston's contract expired... and it's just a matter of time before Chaney is gone.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> No rebuilding in NYC. You have to win, and you have to win now.


besides dolan wouldnt allow it. He doesnt care about winning, he cares about the dollars. He just wants done whatever makes him money, and rebuilding takes time that doesnt give you any profits.


----------



## Big John

I'll repeat what I already posted on the Celtics forum: this is an absolute steal for Phoenix. Oh sure, they give up Marbury, but they weren't winning with him anyway. And look at the Suns' long-term prospects. They have TWO huge expiring contracts at the end of this year (McDyess and Gugliotta) plus they get another chunk of cap space by exercising the buyout on Ward's contract-- which they will presumably do shortly. They have acquired the rights to the best pg in Europe, plus they can now develop Barbosa at pg with Eisley as an experienced backup. Next year they can build around Stoudamire, Zarko and Barbosa-- all of whom cost almost nothing-- plus Marion and whatever free agents they want to pick up. Plus they have two uprotected first round picks-- and to top it all off, they have unloaded Hardaway's horrible contract. This is a textbook example of how to rebuild a team.

If Phoenix can pry Vujanic away from Skipper Bologna they will have an outstanding young backcourt with Vujanic and Barbosa. It is also being rumored that Lampe is part of the deal. If so, it is even more of a steal.

The Knicks, meanwhile, get better in the short run and may make the playoffs, but they have no cap space, no draft picks, no promising young players and a potentially large luxury tax bill-- and even with Marbury, they are probably not good enough to get past the Nets.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> I'll repeat what I already posted on the Celtics forum: this is an absolute steal for Phoenix. Oh sure, they give up Marbury, but they weren't winning with him anyway. And look at the Suns' long-term prospects. They have TWO huge expiring contracts at the end of this year (McDyess and Gugliotta) plus they get another chunk of cap space by exercising the buyout on Ward's contract-- which they will presumably do shortly. They have acquired the rights to the best pg in Europe, plus they can now develop Barbosa at pg with Eisley as an experienced backup. Next year they can build around Stoudamire, Zarko and Barbosa-- all of whom cost almost nothing-- plus Marion and whatever free agents they want to pick up. Plus they have two uprotected first round picks-- and to top it all off, they have unloaded Hardaway's horrible contract. This is a textbook example of how to rebuild a team.
> 
> If Phoenix can pry Vujanic away from Skipper Bologna they will have an outstanding young backcourt with Vujanic and Barbosa. It is also being rumored that Lampe is part of the deal. If so, it is even more of a steal.
> 
> The Knicks, meanwhile, get better in the short run and may make the playoffs, but they have no cap space, no draft picks, no promising young players and a potentially large luxury tax bill-- and even with Marbury, they are probably not good enough to get past the Nets.


I think the trade was very good for both teams. The Knicks finally get a quality PG, and look to be contenders to win the East. The Suns are in a great situation w/ young players, picks, cap space, etc. I don't think this was bad for the Knicks, because it is the most demanding market in the country, and they are putting together a team that can win. Everywhere else, the cap situation would make this trade redicuous, but NYC is different.


----------



## CAnthony15

In the short term, the Knicks win they get Marbury to team up with Houston in the backcourt. The Knicks now have a solid team and even if they dont make the playoffs, they at least have earned the respect of the league

In the long term, the Suns win. They get 2 draft picks, probably one which will be a lotto pick and a great young player in Lampe plus 2 building blocks in Stoudmare and Marion


----------



## knickstorm

lol no one else has had enough to get past the nets the last 2 years. Sorry i cant give up 2 first rounder, lampe and milos., i'd do prolly 2 out of those 3, but not all of em, i would've thrown sweetney at them instead of lampe. sweetney's another michael wright.


----------



## KokoTheMonkey

> This is a textbook example of how to rebuild a team.


It would be textbook only if the Suns didn't give up their top PG.


----------



## Big John

> Originally posted by <b>CAnthony15</b>!
> The Knicks now have a solid team and even if they dont make the playoffs, they at least have earned the respect of the league


Are you kidding? If they don't make the playoffs after completely mortgaging their future in order to acquire Marbury, both Isaiah and the Knicks will be the laughingstock of the league. I, for one, will be laughing my head off.


----------



## Starbury03

Marbury will prove eveyone wrong about this trade like he did about the Kidd trade watch and see. He is gonna make the Suns look like the biggest ****ing idiots ever.


----------



## 1/2man-1/2incredible

i guess Marion will be stepping up and taking conrtol considering it will be his team now... stoudemire should get his big contract also... McDyess is a free agent at teh end of the year


----------



## el_Diablo

> Originally posted by <b>Starbury03</b>!
> Marbury will prove eveyone wrong about this trade like he did about the Kidd trade watch and see. He is gonna make the Suns look like the biggest ****ing idiots ever.


new jersey nets, eastern conference champions 2002, 2003


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>Starbury03</b>!
> Marbury will prove eveyone wrong about this trade like he did about the Kidd trade watch and see. He is gonna make the Suns look like the biggest ****ing idiots ever.


how??? with him phoenix has worse records than the jazz and clips, how is he gonna make them look like idiots? turn knicks into a 500 team?


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you kidding? If they don't make the playoffs after completely mortgaging their future in order to acquire Marbury, both Isaiah and the Knicks will be the laughingstock of the league. I, for one, will be laughing my head off.


exactly, we gave up too much young talent, just like the new york rangers. Sacracfice future cuz playoffs churn cash and thats what they want. when is someone gonne start fireisiah.com? after al firelayden.com does seem to be completely quiet now.


----------



## The_Franchise

How much do you want to bet that the 3rd most sold jersey behind LeBron and Carmelo for next week will be the Marbury Knicks' uniform? Wooo I'm gettin me one


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> How much do you want to bet that the 3rd most sold jersey behind LeBron and Carmelo for next week will be the Marbury Knicks' uniform? Wooo I'm gettin me one


do tehy keep track of just teh authentic jersey sales? or do they include replicas, swingman ones too


----------



## macro6

dont blame isiah. blame your owner, hes the one that didnt want to rebuild.


----------



## Big John

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> dont blame isiah. blame your owner, hes the one that didnt want to rebuild.


Hitting the nail on the head.


----------



## Showtyme

Great trade for both sides. The key here is that in two years, Lampe may blow up into a Nowitzki type player, and be the real seal on the deal. Vujanic is a great pick-up too. 

And if the Suns are enabled to get Kobe, then we see yet another team get on the rebuilding wagon about a million times faster than the Bulls.

If the Suns tank the season (easy to do in the West) and get their hands on a guy like Okafor, or worse yet, Pavel... the league is in trouble.

Vujanic/Barbosa (incredible Euro-style fast-paced combo will shock many)
KOBE BRYANT/Joe Johnson
SHAWN MARION/Casey Jacobsen
Amare Stoudemire/Zarko Cabarkapa
Pavel/Little Jake/Jahidi

This is an incredible lineup... super fast and in the style of the Sacramento Kings.

They would definitely need to draft Pavel, though, or acquire a top center via trade. I wouldn't be surprised if they nabbed someone like Kandi, whose salary is not excessive but can provide some interior strength, in exchange for some of the stockpiled draft picks that Minnesota has been hungry for and maybe a package like Casey Jacobsen + Little Jake.

But this team could turn it around in ONE OFF-SEASON and be contending in the West. It's a good time to be a Suns fan.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> Hitting the nail on the head.


that doesnt constitute trading 2 first rounders, milos and lampe. nto rebuilding constitutes us never getting a high draft pick. it was still isiah that traded too much for marybury and penny. should've thrown sweeteny at them instead of lampe.


----------



## The_Franchise

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> 
> 
> do tehy keep track of just teh authentic jersey sales? or do they include replicas, swingman ones too


Yes... those merchandised through the NBA.

Jersey sales as of December 2


----------



## MemphisX

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> 
> 
> that doesnt constitute trading 2 first rounders, milos and lampe. nto rebuilding constitutes us never getting a high draft pick. it was still isiah that traded too much for marybury and penny. should've thrown sweeteny at them instead of lampe.


man these things are nothing, Lampe hasn't done squat and neither has Milos and I know they are young but so is Marbury. The only way this trade is bad is if the Knicks miss the playoffs. It becomes a huge blunder if that happens and they win the draft lottery.:grinning:


----------



## Big John

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> 
> 
> that doesnt constitute trading 2 first rounders, milos and lampe. nto rebuilding constitutes us never getting a high draft pick. it was still isiah that traded too much for marybury and penny. should've thrown sweeteny at them instead of lampe.


Dolan hired Isiah. As I said at the time, Dolan fired the worst GM in the league and hired the worst possible replacement.

Dolan doesn't want to rebuild. He cares more about CATV revenues than about winning a championship. This trade will never bring a championship, because when Mutombo finally ossifies the Knicks will have neither the cap space nor the draft picks to acquire the front court stud that every championship team requires.

As for Sweetney, who would take him? He can't play.


----------



## bl611

I'm sre this was mentioned somewhere before in the previous 50 pages of this thread, but Steph and Van Horn together again? The E! reality show can't be far off.....


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>bl611</b>!
> I'm sre this was mentioned somewhere before in the previous 50 pages of this thread, but Steph and Van Horn together again? The E! reality show can't be far off.....


I'm sure they are aware of this. I bet they are trying to package him and Frank Williams to get Artest.


----------



## rebelsun

I am gonna order my orange PHX Vujanic jersey today with Vujanic and a ? in place of the #.


----------



## Mattsanity

Present: Advantage Knicks
Future: *Most Likely* Advantage Suns


----------



## DetBNyce

If Isiah can get Artest for KVH and Frank Williams, he needs to be tried for robbery.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> 
> 
> now now, milos and lampe arent garbage, wards not great, but not garbage either.


Garbage is relative. For a Marbury, that's all crap. Also, Lampe wasn't originally reported as part of the deal.

Is there a link confirming Lampe, because the latest Yahoo story says this:



> Two weeks after becoming the Knicks president of basketball operations, Thomas reportedly has acquired Stephon Marbury and injury-plagued guard Penny Hardaway from the Phoenix Suns for forward Antonio McDyess and point guards Howard Eisley and Charlie Ward.
> 
> WFAN Radio in New York is reporting the Suns also received the rights to Yugoslavian point guard Milos Vujanic, a first-round pick in 2004 and another conditional first-rounder in the deal.


And Vujanic may indeed be worthless because rumours are starting to suggest he may never come and play in the NBA.

Eisley, Ward, McDyess and a questionable Vujanic is mostly garbage talent-wise, it only offers cap room. And I detailed in my last post why I think cap room is a silly return on a superstar.

You trade cap room for a superstar. That's the ideal. You should never trade a young superstar for cap room. Foolish.


----------



## Amareca

IF the Suns could manage to trade Marion+White and fillers to make it work for Rasheed Wallace which seems to be a good trade for Portland.

They could offer Kobe AND TMac max contracts probably even resign Dice for cheap

Plus a lottery pick and the Knicks pick could be lottery as well.

C-McDyess
PF-Amare
SF-Zarko
SG-TMac
PG-Kobe

Plus: Joe Johnson, Barbosa, Lampe, Vujanic, maybe Okafor, Iguodala, Voshkul...........

Offseason should be interessting!


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> Present: Advantage Knicks
> Future: *Most Likely* Advantage Suns


The Suns have a shot at Kobe and are in good position to rebuild quickly and effectively. The Knicks (barring a miracle trade) will not be able to sign significant free agents for a long time. They will only be able to acquire talent through draft and trade. You gotta win in NY, and they have team that can. Even after this, I don't know if Thomas is done dealing. Thomas has put together a team that can win now, and for a few years, but the draft picks will hurt them. They are pretty much stuck with the nucleus they have for a while, unless they trade.


----------



## Crossword

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> Yes he is , he will most likely opt out and test the market like Kobe.


No he isn't. He's got an opt-out after next year, not this one.

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/orlando.htm


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> IF the Suns could manage to trade Marion+White and fillers to make it work for Rasheed Wallace which seems to be a good trade for Portland.
> 
> They could offer Kobe AND TMac max contracts probably even resign Dice for cheap
> 
> Plus a lottery pick and the Knicks pick could be lottery as well.
> 
> C-McDyess
> PF-Amare
> SF-Zarko
> SG-TMac
> PG-Kobe
> 
> Plus: Joe Johnson, Barbosa, Lampe, Vujanic, maybe Okafor, Iguodala, Voshkul...........
> 
> Offseason should be interessting!


I wish bro, but I don't think Kobe would go to a team w/ T-Mac. He wants to be the man.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Budweiser_Boy</b>!
> 
> 
> No he isn't. He's got an opt-out after next year, not this one.
> 
> http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/orlando.htm



Regardless when his opt-out clause is, T-Mac can demand a trade whenever he wants to. If PHX offers Matrix, plus a combination of picks and young players, they might entertain that. That is, if T-Mac wants to leave Disneyworld.


----------



## bl611

BigAmare: I can't even begin to tell you whats wrong with that


----------



## sheefo13

knicks loose alot of depth and that vujanic guy they were all goin crazy about, but why go crazy about him when you got marbury!?


there is really no more depth for the knick now, penny isnt very consistent now, and i guess frank williams is ok.........


for the suns, i dont think it was a bad trade, this team is clearly building around marion, stodimire and sort of johnson. now pheonix has tremendous depth with picks to blow, maybe even a couple lotery picks now, 
*what does the future hold.................?* 

knicks could make the playoffs this year with now a solid starting lineup, but if anyone of the starters get injured, i think its over for the knicks. plus after this year, they will officaily suck, they have no first round pick, no mulos vulanic, no depth, but one thing they do have------- old guys. that is also why they will suck after this year.


as for pheonix, you can call this a rebuilding season, knowing they wont make the playoffs with how solid the west has become. so they look towards the future with the picks they got. they are for sure going for a point guard and a scorer, whether that be felton, jack, jj redick, deng, ect............ this team is really going to look sharp in the future, johnson, marion, stodimire, lampe, vujonic, and who ever they pick right now.... just watch out, they have cap room too................


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>sheefo13</b>!
> *what does the future hold.................?*


Hopefully Kobe or T-Mac in an orange uniform.


----------



## Crossword

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless when his opt-out clause is, T-Mac can demand a trade whenever he wants to. If PHX offers Matrix, plus a combination of picks and young players, they might entertain that. That is, if T-Mac wants to leave Disneyworld.


Why would the Magic want to trade T-Mac? I love Marion but he's nowhere near T-Mac in terms of dominance, all-around game, or superstardom. If they're going to trade McGrady they're getting a player of superstar status for him (aka has a high-selling shoe, a high-selling jersey, is an all star starter, is widely known by average americans, etc.)


----------



## Minstrel

Phoenix stands to gain about $6 million of cap room (and lose their mid-level exception, since that's for teams over the cap). They would be at about $10 million, but first round draft picks should eat up about $4 million of that.

The mid-level exception is around $5 million. Phoenix will have maybe a little over a million bucks more than most teams to play with.

Unless they find a lot more cap room through other deals, they're not signing Kobe (or T-Mac, the following yrar *if* he opts out).


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Budweiser_Boy</b>!
> 
> 
> Why would the Magic want to trade T-Mac? I love Marion but he's nowhere near T-Mac in terms of dominance, all-around game, or superstardom. If they're going to trade McGrady they're getting a player of superstar status for him (aka has a high-selling shoe, a high-selling jersey, is an all star starter, is widely known by average americans, etc.)


It's not if the Magic want to trade T-Mac, it is if T-Mac is unhappy. Superstars like that have a lot of power, and if unhappy, he can be traded if he really wants to. 

Kobe wants to leave LA so he can prove he can win on his own. Does it make sense for him or the Lakers to leave. Not really, its just something Kobe wants to do. Come time, the Lakers will probably do a sign-and-trade to grant Kobe's wish. Or else he will likely walk and leave the Lakers with nothing to show for it.

Superstars like these write their own tickets. It's just a matter of what they want.


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>Budweiser_Boy</b>!
> 
> 
> Why would the Magic want to trade T-Mac? I love Marion but he's nowhere near T-Mac in terms of dominance, all-around game, or superstardom. If they're going to trade McGrady they're getting a player of superstar status for him (aka has a high-selling shoe, a high-selling jersey, is an all star starter, is widely known by average americans, etc.)


It could be POSSIBLE if he lets them know that it's 100% sure he's going to leave. See: Grant Hill's last year in Detroit. Otherwise, T-Mac will remain Magic. Or is it a Magic?


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Phoenix stands to gain about $6 million of cap room (and lose their mid-level exception, since that's for teams over the cap). They would be at about $10 million, but first round draft picks should eat up about $4 million of that.
> 
> The mid-level exception is around $5 million. Phoenix will have maybe a little over a million bucks more than most teams to play with.
> 
> Unless they find a lot more cap room through other deals, they're not signing Kobe (or T-Mac, the following yrar *if* he opts out).


The difference between "maybe a little over a million bucks more than most teams have to play with" and having enough money to sign a max FA is a first round draft pick and Jahidi white for an expiring contract trade away. The other difference is other teams aren't 10 million under the cap.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Phoenix stands to gain about $6 million of cap room (and lose their mid-level exception, since that's for teams over the cap). They would be at about $10 million, but first round draft picks should eat up about $4 million of that.
> 
> The mid-level exception is around $5 million. Phoenix will have maybe a little over a million bucks more than most teams to play with.
> 
> Unless they find a lot more cap room through other deals, they're not signing Kobe (or T-Mac, the following yrar *if* he opts out).


I doubt they are done dealing, though. I think this was just the first step. They can always do a sign and trade also. I'm sure the Colangelos have gone through more Kobe scenarios already than we will ever think of. I don't know if Kobe is the ultimate goal of these moves, but I very much doubt he wasn't a big part of them.


----------



## Crossword

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> It's not if the Magic want to trade T-Mac, it is if T-Mac is unhappy. Superstars like that have a lot of power, and if unhappy, he can be traded if he really wants to.
> 
> Kobe wants to leave LA so he can prove he can win on his own. Does it make sense for him or the Lakers to leave. Not really, its just something Kobe wants to do. Come time, the Lakers will probably do a sign-and-trade to grant Kobe's wish. Or else he will likely walk and leave the Lakers with nothing to show for it.
> 
> Superstars like these write their own tickets. It's just a matter of what they want.


If T-Mac really, HONESTLY, gets upset to the point where he really demands a trade and is truly unhappy in Orlando - which I don't think will happen, then there are other players the Magic can trade for. If Amare turns out to be the game-changing player that BigAmare says he will be, that's the player they'll try to get on the Suns, not Marion. And if the Suns don't want to give up Stoudemire, the Magic will either keep McGrady and not trade him at all or trade him to another team for an unhappy SUPERSTAR or a superstar on a losing team.

Unhappy superstars want out of the team. They don't make the trades. No way is Marion equal value to T-Mac.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Budweiser_Boy</b>!
> 
> 
> If T-Mac really, HONESTLY, gets upset to the point where he really demands a trade and is truly unhappy in Orlando - which I don't think will happen, then there are other players the Magic can trade for. If Amare turns out to be the game-changing player that BigAmare says he will be, that's the player they'll try to get on the Suns, not Marion. And if the Suns don't want to give up Stoudemire, the Magic will either keep McGrady and not trade him at all or trade him to another team for an unhappy SUPERSTAR or a superstar on a losing team.
> 
> Unhappy superstars want out of the team. They don't make the trades. No way is Marion equal value to T-Mac.


I think Stoudamire is almost untouchable to the Suns right now, except for the elite young players - LeBron, Duncan, etc. 

I didn't say Marion was of equal value, thats why I said trade Marion and a combination of players and/or picks for T-Mac. Tracy is top 5 player, Marion is probably somewhere in the top 20-25.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Budweiser_Boy</b>!
> If T-Mac really, HONESTLY, gets upset to the point where he really demands a trade and is truly unhappy in Orlando - which I don't think will happen


He said he was close to never playing again, he was so unhappy with his situation. He almost quit basketball playing for the Magic.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> 
> The difference between "maybe a little over a million bucks more than most teams have to play with" and having enough money to sign a max FA is a first round draft pick and Jahidi white for an expiring contract trade away.


Sure, if they want to give up a high first round draft pick (it would have to be theirs, since the Knicks' pick isn't going to be good enough to induce teams to trade a valuable expiring contract for Jahidi White) for the honour of courting, and likely not getting, Bryant...that's their perogative.

I'm not sure how many teams have to fail at the "stockpile cap room and draft picks and build a champion" strategy before it loses its sparkle for fans. As it stands, fans seem to think it's the cleverest scheme in the world, even though it's yet to produce anything of note.


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Sure, if they want to give up a high first round draft pick (it would have to be theirs, since the Knicks' pick isn't going to be good enough to induce teams to trade a valuable expiring contract for Jahidi White) for the honour of courting, and likely not getting, Bryant...that's their perogative.


You don't think Utah would go for Jahidi White and NY's 2004 first for Keon Clark? It looks like Clark might not even be back for a couple of months, and Utah's big men are so injured that on top of already having two of the biggest scrubs in the NBA in Jarron Collins and Michael Ruffin, they had to sign Ben Handlogten and Paul Grant, a 1997 draft pick who hasn't played in the NBA since then, and has career averages of .7pts and .7 rebounds.

The Jazz are going to have 28 million in cap room, and Jahidi's deal is done in 2005, and right now they desperately need a (healthy) big man. Can you tell me which high caliber 2004 free agents Utah is going to spend 28 million on? As far as I can tell, this years FA crop is almost pitiful, aside from the possibility of Bryant.

That's just my opinion anyways.


----------



## Crossword

Stoudemire is as untouchable to the Suns as McGrady is to the Magic. Top 5 players don't grow on trees.

Quite honestly, Marion and a pick, maybe a player too, for McGrady is very close talent wise. Especially considering Marion is in the west. But T-Mac's offense is leagues ahead of Marion's, and so is his superstardom. You ever rarely trade superstars for anything other than superstars. And I don't consider Marbury a superstar, although he's damn close to it. The superstars in this league are Shaq, Kobe, T-Mac, Duncan, Garnett, Iverson, James, Carter, Yao, and maybe Dirk. All of those players are damn near un-tradeable, of course no player is but those are pretty close.


----------



## Big John

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> I'm not sure how many teams have to fail at the "stockpile cap room and draft picks and build a champion" strategy before it loses its sparkle for fans. As it stands, fans seem to think it's the cleverest scheme in the world, even though it's yet to produce anything of note.


San Antonio seems to have done pretty well.


----------



## Crossword

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> He said he was close to never playing again, he was so unhappy with his situation. He almost quit basketball playing for the Magic.


Yes, that's why I said really and honestly meant it. What he said early on in the season was just to a) get attention and b) try to motivate his team-mates. Nobody in their right mind says that and actually means it 8 games into the season.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Sure, if they want to give up a high first round draft pick (it would have to be theirs, since the Knicks' pick isn't going to be good enough to induce teams to trade a valuable expiring contract for Jahidi White) for the honour of courting, and likely not getting, Bryant...that's their perogative.
> 
> I'm not sure how many teams have to fail at the "stockpile cap room and draft picks and build a champion" strategy before it loses its sparkle for fans. As it stands, fans seem to think it's the cleverest scheme in the world, even though it's yet to produce anything of note.


This was an very good business decision for the Suns, and I very much believe it is positive for the well-being of the franchise. Their cap situation was terrible. Penny was eating up millions while contributing very little. It may seem like a drastic move, but I believe this was the right thing to do. I love the Suns, but I realistically didn't think they could seriously contend w/ the Lakers, Spurs, Kings in the playoffs w/ this roster. They fought hard last year, were very lucky, and came up short. Amare will warrant a max contract in a couple of years, and they are not about to let him go. I have a feeling Matrix won't see the end of next season in Arizona, either.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Budweiser_Boy</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, that's why I said really and honestly meant it. What he said early on in the season was just to a) get attention and b) try to motivate his team-mates. Nobody in their right mind says that and actually means it 8 games into the season.


Regardless of whether he meant it, a superstar goes where the superstar wants. If he is truly unhappy, he can force a trade if he really desires, that's all I'm saying. Will T-Mac be in PHX next year? Unlikely, but it's not impossible.


----------



## Crossword

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> Regardless of whether he meant it, a superstar goes where the superstar wants. If he is truly unhappy, he can force a trade if he really desires, that's all I'm saying. Will T-Mac be in PHX next year? Unlikely, but it's not impossible.


Of course it's not impossible, but Marion won't cut it. Sure Phoenix doesn't want to lose a potential beast in Amare, but you think Orlando will give up T-Mac for Marion just because he wants out? Like I said, it'll take a superstar coming back to Orlando in my opinion.

Anyway that's just me... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> San Antonio seems to have done pretty well.


How so? They had a champion before they got cap room, and their cap room stockpiling was pretty disappointing...they targeted a superstar and got Nesterovic.

San Antonio's success comes from the fortune to have the #1 pick TWICE when dominant big men were available. Most years, a Hall of Fame big man is not available. *Both* times the Spurs happened to have the top pick, future Hall of Fame big men were available.


----------



## The True Essence

thank god for isaiah thomas. Now my favorite player is on my favorite team


----------



## Big John

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> San Antonio's success comes from the fortune to have the #1 pick TWICE when dominant big men were available. Most years, a Hall of Fame big man is not available. *Both* times the Spurs happened to have the top pick, future Hall of Fame big men were available.


Yes, that's true. But the point is that staying mediocre will never bring a championship. You have to get bad enough to have at least a shot at the top pick.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Budweiser_Boy</b>!
> 
> 
> Of course it's not impossible, but Marion won't cut it. Sure Phoenix doesn't want to lose a potential beast in Amare, but you think Orlando will give up T-Mac for Marion just because he wants out? Like I said, it'll take a superstar coming back to Orlando in my opinion.
> 
> Anyway that's just me... I guess we'll have to agree to disagree...


I'm just talking hypothetical bro, I doubt T-Mac is going anywhere, but its just an option to be explored.


----------



## Lope31

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> thank god for isaiah thomas. Now my favorite player is on my favorite team


Who's your favourite player?


LOL J/K


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> thank god for isaiah thomas. Now my favorite player is on my favorite team


I think Marbury will finally be comfortable there, and think Penny will thrive in the spotlight of MSG. Penny has lost some speed, but he can still play.


----------



## Arclite

Check your private messages, RebelSun..


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> I'm not sure how many teams have to fail at the "stockpile cap room and draft picks and build a champion" strategy before it loses its sparkle for fans. As it stands, fans seem to think it's the cleverest scheme in the world, even though it's yet to produce anything of note.


If you are thinking about Gabriel in Orlando, don't forget he banked a great deal on signing Tim Duncan, but failed. That was a huge blow for them. Gabriel was great at acquiring picks, but that doesn't mean anything if you're picking Jeryl Sasser and Steven Hunter. It's quality not quantity; the Suns always make the best of their drafts, and are great businessmen. They will likely make a run at Kobe and draft well. I seriously doubt the Suns will be in rebuilding mode after next year.


----------



## MagnusPinus

Now I can say it was a good trade for both team... but if really Isiah wanted to take Artest he hadn't to give all that to the Suns.. He could at least handle a pick...


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> Check your private messages, RebelSun..


Gotcha, wrote you back.


----------



## rebelsun

Does anyone know if it has been finalized?

If the Suns are getting Lampe and the picks? The last Sportscenter on the radio said the "picks" are still an issue or something to that degree.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> If you are thinking about Gabriel in Orlando, don't forget he banked a great deal on signing Tim Duncan, but failed.


Teams that rely on cap room and picks bank a great deal, in general. It's Gabriel after Shaq left, Gabriel when he, several years later, cut away everything he could to go after Duncan/McGrady/Hill, Chicago after Jordan/Pippen/Rodman/Jackson left, Cleveland for years...

It's not been a winning strategy. Could the Suns be successful? Sure, maybe. But so far, the evidence suggests it doesn't work as rosily as expected.


----------



## Tobias

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> How so? They had a champion before they got cap room, and their cap room stockpiling was pretty disappointing...they targeted a superstar and got Nesterovic.
> 
> San Antonio's success comes from the fortune to have the #1 pick TWICE when dominant big men were available. Most years, a Hall of Fame big man is not available. *Both* times the Spurs happened to have the top pick, future Hall of Fame big men were available.


Well, the Spurs back in the day had the year where Robinson, Elliott (signed rookies) and Cummings (free agent) came in; which inevitably led to championships (only bump in the road was the Duncan-yielding Admiral-less year)


----------



## Tobias

Speaking of picks and the Spurs, does anyone know what the conditionns for the pick phx gave up for Barbosa, and could the Spurs use that pick this draft?


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>Tobias</b>!
> Speaking of picks and the Spurs, does anyone know what the conditionns for the pick phx gave up for Barbosa, and could the Spurs use that pick this draft?


It's a "conditional future first", which means it is likely a) not a lottery pick, and b) at Phoenix's discretion.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Teams that rely on cap room and picks bank a great deal, in general. It's Gabriel after Shaq left, Gabriel when he, several years later, cut away everything he could to go after Duncan/McGrady/Hill, Chicago after Jordan/Pippen/Rodman/Jackson left, Cleveland for years...
> 
> It's not been a winning strategy. Could the Suns be successful? Sure, maybe. But so far, the evidence suggests it doesn't work as rosily as expected.


I agree w/ you, but the Suns already have their franchise player - - Amare, will make a run at Kobe, but I doubt the Colangelos will not have a contingency plan if he doesn't get to PHX. The Suns want to win, and were tired of paying their 2 guards $25m to be last place in the conference. They obviously won't tolerate losing with that payroll, and things needed to be shaken up. They just got, what, $70 mil off their books, maybe more? Yes, they are in rebuilding mode right now, but don't expect the Colangelos to get to cozy w/ that attitude. They want to win, and won't go through a rebuilding process for nothing.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Tobias</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, the Spurs back in the day had the year where Robinson, Elliott (signed rookies) and Cummings (free agent) came in; which inevitably led to championships (only bump in the road was the Duncan-yielding Admiral-less year)


As I said, Robinson and Duncan were the key. Draft #1 in years where you'd get a Stackhouse-type or an Olowakandi-type and the Spurs have no titles.

I'm not saying that the Spurs did nothing outside of being fortunate to get those guys. But Hall of Fame big men are pretty much 99% of the importance.


----------



## rebelsun

Minstrel - I hope you're not confusing Colangelo w/ Sterling. Phoenix wants to win. The Suns, that is, not the Cardinals.


----------



## bl611

So I guess there goes the whole " It wasn't Scott layden's fault he has untradeable players" theory, huh?


----------



## PhatDaddy3100

Yeah, after hearing this at first, i was like WTF. But after anlyzing this, it sucks for us not, but Its good for the future, we could maybe have a top 3 pick this year and a mid rounder.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>bl611</b>!
> So I guess there goes the whole " It wasn't Scott layden's fault he has untradeable players" theory, huh?


He just made unrealistic offers thats all. I think he was much too conservative for NYC.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree w/ you, but the Suns already have their franchise player - - Amare


The Suns lost their franchise player, the proven, young superstar.

They *hope* Amare Stoudemire can be a franchise player, but he certainly isn't yet. They *hope* Vujanic will come to the NBA and, if he does, they *hope* he pans out into something. They *hope* Barbosa pans out into something. They *hope* Lampe (who took an incredible fall in the draft) pans out into something.

That's a tremendous amount of hopes. If they come true, great. I'd say the chances are below 50% on each of those hopes except for Stoudemire...but he's certainly not 100% sure to become a superstar.

Basically, the Suns traded the best piece of a core that had the talent to be championship-worthy for a longer window of oportunity and a huge amount of added risk.

I don't like the decision. Considering they made the decision, they did a good job of extracting prospects from New York. But it was still a bad decision, IMO.


----------



## bl611

You won't have a top 3 pick, the Knicks aren't that bad, especially now


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>PhatDaddy3100</b>!
> Yeah, after hearing this at first, i was like WTF. But after anlyzing this, it sucks for us not, but Its good for the future, we could maybe have a top 3 pick this year and a mid rounder.


It's never easy to trade your best player or an all-star, but I really believe this is best for the franchise.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> Minstrel - I hope you're not confusing Colangelo w/ Sterling. Phoenix wants to win. The Suns, that is, not the Cardinals.


I didn't even bring up the Clippers, due to ownership. But Jerry Krause wanted/wants to win, just as much, I imagine.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>bl611</b>!
> You won't have a top 3 pick, the Knicks aren't that bas, especially now


I think he meant the Suns' own pick. They could be in the top 3 this season.


----------



## bl611

Ok that might work.....


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> I didn't even bring up the Clippers, due to ownership. But Jerry Krause wanted/wants to win, just as much, I imagine.


The Suns haven't had a dominant big man since Barkley, I doubt they would have let go Brand. Krause traded away an under-25 20-10 PF. I think that was a little rash. Brand just went 30-15-6assists and 5 blocks in win over Lakers. The Bulls went with a much more dramatic rebuild, and they are still struggling to find a core.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

Ugh, I don't care how the future now looks for the Suns...there is no way that they should've traded Stephon Marbury.


----------



## NYKBaller

05' draft, knicks should get a wing player...


----------



## rebelsun

The latest from ESPN - 

The Knicks acquired Marbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybanski from Phoenix for Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Maciej Lampe, the rights to Milos Vujanic, two first-round draft picks and cash, Suns owner Jerry Colangelo confirmed.

Interesting note: Dr. Jack Ramsey thinks Marbury is the 2nd best PG in the league (behind Kidd, of course.)

Trade

"This is a big picture kind of move, and a bold move," Colangelo said. "We didn't have flexibility under the cap, and we were hamstrung by some contracts. This allows us to be a player in free agency if we choose to. This is not a talent-for-talent deal."

"No matter how long you play in this league, there's still things that come up that are surprising, and this is definitely one of them," Van Horn said. "Personally we never had any problems. On the court we didn't win, and I think that was the biggest problem that Stephon and I had."


----------



## jokeaward

What post did I post on about 2:15 ET in this forum? I don't think I saw my post merged in here.

Thank you, Minstrel.

What an occurence after you sign a big extension. Traded in January after the deal.

Why did Colangelo even sign him to one? He sure didn't stick with him too long.

How far will they tank? A functioning center plus Amare/Marion/Barbosa would be good enough, but also Vujanic, Lampe, and Zarko. Scary. Team "1 college alumnus". lol

Well, the other post looked at how NY was going for now and an electrifying PG like Kidd or Marbury will be welcomed in MSG.

And looking near the bottom fo the list, getting Vujanic (Vuljanic?) AND Lampe AND two 1st(!) rounders, they got out really well, the better of the deal.

LOL, maybe T-Mac will become a Knick. Marbury-KVH + McGrady-Penny


----------



## PhatDaddy3100

Yeah, we could draft Dwight Howard or Emeka Okafor to go in our frontcourt with Amare in this draft with our pick, and then i think the knicks will probablyhave artound an 18 and the suns should get someone like ricky paulding.


----------



## Tobias

> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> Ugh, I don't care how the future now looks for the Suns...there is no way that they should've traded Stephon Marbury.


At first thought, Marbury is the last of their "big 3" that I would have traded. But, they werent making the playoffs this year anyhow, and in the long run, with that configuration, the best they could have done would be 5th seed and losing in the 2nd round.

With this they get 2 potentially big cogs in Milos and Lampe, and 2 first rounders, plus their own which will most likely be a high pick. Theyve got a lot of nice trade bait with those picks that NY gave them (their 2004 wont be that high anyway). 
Phoenix won huge in trading their superstar.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>PhatDaddy3100</b>!
> Yeah, we could draft Dwight Howard or Emeka Okafor to go in our frontcourt with Amare in this draft with our pick, and then i think the knicks will probablyhave artound an 18 and the suns should get someone like ricky paulding.


I would actually settle for Iguodala and Paul Davis in the draft.


----------



## PHXSPORTS4LIFE

> Originally posted by <b>Budweiser_Boy</b>!
> 
> 
> If T-Mac really, HONESTLY, gets upset to the point where he really demands a trade and is truly unhappy in Orlando - which I don't think will happen, then there are other players the Magic can trade for. If Amare turns out to be the game-changing player that BigAmare says he will be, that's the player they'll try to get on the Suns, not Marion. And if the Suns don't want to give up Stoudemire, the Magic will either keep McGrady and not trade him at all or trade him to another team for an unhappy SUPERSTAR or a superstar on a losing team.
> 
> Unhappy superstars want out of the team. They don't make the trades. No way is Marion equal value to T-Mac.


did the pistons get a superstar in return for grant hill? no. sometimes the team has to take what it gets. we acquired penny, then thought to be a superstar, for garrity and two first round picks. i wouldn't be suprised to see us get tmac (if he made a lot of noise about eventually opting out) for nothing more than lampe or zarko and 2 or 3 first rounders (which we could easily afford now that we have two of ny's and one of cleveland's). it could happen.


----------



## PHXSPORTS4LIFE

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Sure, if they want to give up a high first round draft pick (it would have to be theirs, since the Knicks' pick isn't going to be good enough to induce teams to trade a valuable expiring contract for Jahidi White) for the honour of courting, and likely not getting, Bryant...that's their perogative.
> 
> I'm not sure how many teams have to fail at the "stockpile cap room and draft picks and build a champion" strategy before it loses its sparkle for fans. As it stands, fans seem to think it's the cleverest scheme in the world, even though it's yet to produce anything of note.


i don't disagree with you. however, that said, rarely do the suns misgamble. the lockout year and maybe longley being the lone exceptions. they have a long term plan up their sleeve and i don't think they'd have done this without some certainty in their minds that things were gonna fall out in a certain manner.


----------



## Arclite

The deal with the Pistons and Magic was a bit different as it was a sign and trade..

Check your PM's again Rebel.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>Tobias</b>!
> 
> 
> At first thought, Marbury is the last of their "big 3" that I would have traded. But, they werent making the playoffs this year anyhow, and in the long run, with that configuration, the best they could have done would be 5th seed and losing in the 2nd round.
> 
> With this they get 2 potentially big cogs in Milos and Lampe, and 2 first rounders, plus their own which will most likely be a high pick. Theyve got a lot of nice trade bait with those picks that NY gave them (their 2004 wont be that high anyway).
> Phoenix won huge in trading their superstar.


doesnt phoenix owe san antonio their frist round pick from the barbosa trade? what are the conditions of its protection?


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> 
> 
> doesnt phoenix owe san antonio their frist round pick from the barbosa trade? what are the conditions of its protection?


post #201 in this thread.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> 
> 
> post #201 in this thread.


That's how rare a trade for a true superstar, who is still youthful, is.

It generates this much discussion.

And the fact that he's landing in New York doesn't hurt the interest.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>bl611</b>!
> So I guess there goes the whole " It wasn't Scott layden's fault he has untradeable players" theory, huh?


what are you talking about??? who has isiah traded that was deemed untradeable? weatherspoon? norris does make some money. Eisley then?? well they took penny and 120 mill in salaries in today's trade.


----------



## PHXSPORTS4LIFE

> Originally posted by <b>bl611</b>!
> You won't have a top 3 pick, the Knicks aren't that bad, especially now


no, but the suns are and will be. our pick may be the top 3 pick. the additional pick we get from the knicks will either be lottery or mid-teens that can be used in a trade or for a "steal" like the suns always seem to find.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> The Suns lost their franchise player, the proven, young superstar.
> 
> They *hope* Amare Stoudemire can be a franchise player, but he certainly isn't yet. They *hope* Vujanic will come to the NBA and, if he does, they *hope* he pans out into something. They *hope* Barbosa pans out into something. They *hope* Lampe (who took an incredible fall in the draft) pans out into something.
> 
> That's a tremendous amount of hopes. If they come true, great. I'd say the chances are below 50% on each of those hopes except for Stoudemire...but he's certainly not 100% sure to become a superstar.
> 
> Basically, the Suns traded the best piece of a core that had the talent to be championship-worthy for a longer window of oportunity and a huge amount of added risk.
> 
> I don't like the decision. Considering they made the decision, they did a good job of extracting prospects from New York. But it was still a bad decision, IMO.


come on now, i wouldnt say phoenix took a huge amount of risk. Milos is the best PG in europe in right now. Sure lampe might not be a star, but as a 2nd round pick a descent player would do. YOu guys cleared a whole lot of cap, which is the best thing. Suns weren't going anywhere anyway.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>sheefo13</b>!
> knicks loose alot of depth and that vujanic guy they were all goin crazy about, but why go crazy about him when you got marbury!?
> 
> 
> there is really no more depth for the knick now, penny isnt very consistent now, and i guess frank williams is ok.........
> 
> 
> for the suns, i dont think it was a bad trade, this team is clearly building around marion, stodimire and sort of johnson. now pheonix has tremendous depth with picks to blow, maybe even a couple lotery picks now,
> *what does the future hold.................?*
> 
> knicks could make the playoffs this year with now a solid starting lineup, but if anyone of the starters get injured, i think its over for the knicks. plus after this year, they will officaily suck, they have no first round pick, no mulos vulanic, no depth, but one thing they do have------- old guys. that is also why they will suck after this year.
> 
> 
> as for pheonix, you can call this a rebuilding season, knowing they wont make the playoffs with how solid the west has become. so they look towards the future with the picks they got. they are for sure going for a point guard and a scorer, whether that be felton, jack, jj redick, deng, ect............ this team is really going to look sharp in the future, johnson, marion, stodimire, lampe, vujonic, and who ever they pick right now.... just watch out, they have cap room too................


well of cours eif the trade was vujanic and some picks for marbury we wouldnt go crazy, but it isnt. we were told this guy is the real deal and one day he's gonna make an impact and now if this guy does make an impact it wont be for the knicks.. just cuz we get marbury it doenst mean knick fan shouldnt be upset at losing vujanic, after all, why not toss frank williams in too since we're getting marbury anyway.


----------



## PHXSPORTS4LIFE

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> The deal with the Pistons and Magic was a bit different as it was a sign and trade..
> 
> Check your PM's again Rebel.


true, but it's similar in that the magic, like the pistons before them, would be in a position where they may lose a player without realizing compensation in return, unless they accept that fact and accept less than fair market value for him.


----------



## MagnusPinus

this is one of the best trades I have ever seen.


----------



## PhatDaddy3100

the suns Pick this year is top 20 protected.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> The Suns lost their franchise player, the proven, young superstar.
> 
> They *hope* Amare Stoudemire can be a franchise player, but he certainly isn't yet. They *hope* Vujanic will come to the NBA and, if he does, they *hope* he pans out into something. They *hope* Barbosa pans out into something. They *hope* Lampe (who took an incredible fall in the draft) pans out into something.
> 
> That's a tremendous amount of hopes. If they come true, great. I'd say the chances are below 50% on each of those hopes except for Stoudemire...but he's certainly not 100% sure to become a superstar.
> 
> Basically, the Suns traded the best piece of a core that had the talent to be championship-worthy for a longer window of oportunity and a huge amount of added risk.
> 
> I don't like the decision. Considering they made the decision, they did a good job of extracting prospects from New York. But it was still a bad decision, IMO.



It's definitely not good for the present, but it is very good for the future. I think they realized that w/o Amare, this team is hopleless, and Marbury, as much as the Suns wanted to believe it, cannot carry the team by himself, let alone w/ Marion. I seriously doubt that team could win a championship w/ the window they would have had w/ those players. This was primarily an economic move. Half of the deal is just getting rid of Penny's contract. Marbury is a great talent, but he can't win all by himself, and the Suns (Colangelos) aren't going to sit around waiting for it to correct itself. This was a good move for the Suns. It was either now or later.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>MagnusPinus</b>!
> this is one of the best trades I have ever seen.


Isn't it though?


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> 
> 
> come on now, i wouldnt say phoenix took a huge amount of risk. Milos is the best PG in europe in right now.


Rumours also suggest Milos may not even come to the NBA. If he doesn't, he could be ten times better than Michael Jordan and it wouldn't matter.



> Sure lampe might not be a star, but as a 2nd round pick a descent player would do. YOu guys cleared a whole lot of cap, which is the best thing.


Nothing suggests cap room is "the best thing." If the Suns net a superstar anywhere near as good as Starbury, I'll be stunned.



> Suns weren't going anywhere anyway.


Not this year. Not with Stoudemire hurt and coaching uncertainties.

But this young core was incredible:

Stephon Marbury
Shawn Marion
Amare Stoudemire
Zarko Cabarkapa

There's no team that had a better foursome of young talent than that. No team had any young foursome anywhere *near* as talented as that.

Trading away the most irreplacable piece of that core because of a bad one-third of a season defines hastiness. And hastiness with talent is often a franchise-killer.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> But this young core was incredible:
> 
> Stephon Marbury
> Shawn Marion
> Amare Stoudemire
> Zarko Cabarkapa
> 
> There's no team that had a better foursome of young talent than that. No team had any young foursome anywhere *near* as talented as that.
> 
> Trading away the most irreplacable piece of that core because of a bad one-third of a season defines hastiness. And hastiness with talent is often a franchise-killer.


Chicago has Curry, Chandler, Hinrich, and Crawford - that's a good foursome for talent.

Cleveland has LeBron, Darius, Boozer, Dajuan, and Diop.

Clipps have Q, Brand, Kaman, Maggette, Jaric.

The fact of the matter is, they where getting annihilated, and the Colangelos had the guts to right the ship. Yes, Amare was injured, but there is no excuse for how poorly they played and the lack of heart they showed.


----------



## MagnusPinus

They have also to change the logo of basketballboards in which there are Steph, Matrix and Amare... together


----------



## MagnusPinus

> Originally posted by <b>MagnusPinus</b>!
> They have also to change the logo of basketballboards in which there are Steph, Matrix and Amare... together


No.. i made a mistake.. is Penny+Marbury+Matrix...


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> Chicago has Curry, Chandler, Hinrich, and Crawford - that's a good foursome for talent.


That group pretty much rests entirely on Curry being great. If he busts, that foursome is only decent. And yes, the same could be said of Amare, but Marion and Marbury were already proven stars and Amare seemed to be progressing more, cutting his bust potential.



> Cleveland has LeBron, Darius, Boozer, Dajuan, and Diop.


That's not close. That's a one-some, a bust (Miles), a role-player (Boozer) and two totally unproven players.



> Clipps have Q, Brand, Kaman, Maggette, Jaric.


That isn't close either, in my opinion.



> The fact of the matter is, they where getting annihilated, and the Colangelos had the guts to right the ship.


First, they were getting annihilated for one-third of a season. Big deal.

Second, remains to be seen if Colangelo "righted the ship." The Suns will certainly be terrible this season, and they've pinned all their hopes on a bunch of total gambles.


----------



## MLKG

Well, now the East is REALLY stacked with guard talent.

Iverson
McGrady
Kidd
Pierce
Marbury
Davis
Carter
Lebron

They can't ALL make the all-star team, can they?

And that's not even mentioning guys like Billups, Hamilton, Houston, Stackhouse, and Arenas.


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Trading away the most irreplacable piece of that core because of a bad one-third of a season defines hastiness. And hastiness with talent is often a franchise-killer.


That is the biggest reason I'm unimpressed with this trade.. I believe Phoenix pulled the trigger way too quickly. Now that Marion is back up to snuff after a dismal first month and a half, if Amare came back and they were STILL being hosed, I could understand a blockbuster deal..

But for Phoenix to be at their best, they needed all three of those guys at their best, which simply hadn't happened yet this year. There was speculation after Shawn immediately picked up his game when Amare got injured that they just don't fit together (I never saw it that way, he put on 15 pounds of muscle and needed to adjust in my mind), so if Marion's level of play drops off AGAIN, don't be surprised to see Matrix shipped as well, as RebelSun suggested..


----------



## rebelsun

You guys gotta remember the cap situation they were in. They have been desperate to move Penny's contract, and if Marbury had to go to make it happen, I'm sure they didn't hesitate. Even with Amare down, they still have 2 all-stars and are last in the conference. There is no excuse.


----------



## Bad Bartons

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> But this young core was incredible:
> 
> Stephon Marbury
> Shawn Marion
> Amare Stoudemire
> Zarko Cabarkapa
> 
> There's no team that had a better foursome of young talent than that. No team had any young foursome anywhere *near* as talented as that.
> 
> Trading away the most irreplacable piece of that core because of a bad one-third of a season defines hastiness. And hastiness with talent is often a franchise-killer.


Exactly!

Phoenix has just been fleeced!

New York has just resurrected interest and hope into an organization that has not had either for a few years.

Unbelievable! 

Maybe the draft picks will turn into stars.
Maybe the Suns will be able to sign Kobe.
Maybe the guys that the Suns got will help the team to be better.
And maybe the Earth will collide with the Sun and burn to nothing.

I do not know what the Suns are thinking.

Stephon Marbury is a superstar in this league.
He is improving every year.
He is still young.
You do not find players like this very easily and when you do you keep them if you can.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Bad Bartons</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly!
> 
> Phoenix has just been fleeced!
> 
> New York has just resurrected interest and hope into an organization that has not had either for a few years.
> 
> Unbelievable!
> 
> Maybe the draft picks will turn into stars.
> Maybe the Suns will be able to sign Kobe.
> Maybe the guys that the Suns got will help the team to be better.
> And maybe the Earth will collide with the Sun and burn to nothing.
> 
> I do not know what the Suns are thinking.
> 
> Stephon Marbury is a superstar in this league.
> He is improving every year.
> He is still young.
> You do not find players like this very easily and when you do you keep them if you can.



Just like Colangelo said - This is a big picture move. This is not a talent for talent deal.

This move is in the best interest for the Suns.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them trade Matrix for Sheed somehow to get his contract off. The Suns want Kobe.


----------



## Greg Ostertag!

The East finally gets one back on the West (probably)... A sign of the times?

The Knicks now become one of, if not, the most interesting franchises in the league. I'll certainly be getting a Marbury jersey.


----------



## PhatDaddy3100

the suns must pray for two things, the Knicks to lose, and Cavs to win, if the cavs dont make the playoffs, the suns could get their pick. So they could potentially have 3 picks this year.


----------



## rebelsun

Chad Ford on Suns' Cap and Kobe - 

How? McDyess' $13.5 million, Ward's $6 million (the Suns will buy out Ward this week, saving another $3.6 million) and Tom Gugliotta's $11.7 million all come off the books at the end of the season. Add in the $6.4 million Eisley is slated to make next season and the Suns are looking at around $36 million in guaranteed salaries next season. Add in cap holds for the two first-round draft picks they own, and that number swells to $39 million. Sources in Phoenix claim, however, the Suns are probably not done dealing. The team will try to move a pick or two along with a salary to get closer to that $35 million number. 

If the cap comes in at around $45 million next year, and the Suns are $10 million under, the Suns are suddenly right in the middle of the hunt to land Kobe. 

And at first glance, they'd have to be the odds-on favorites. Kobe has been hinting that he wants out of L.A., but before today's trade, his best option appeared to be the Clippers. While the Clippers aren't a bad option for him if Donald Sterling is willing to pay, the Suns would be better. Combined with Amare Stoudemire and Shawn Marion, along with young players like Joe Johnson, Zarko Carbarkapa, Lampe and Milos Vujanic, the Suns would have as formidable of a team as any in the league. Phoenix has always been a premier free-agent destination because of the weather and the way the Colangelos run a first-class organization. Having Italian coach Mike D'Antoni couldn't hurt things either. 

Exerpt from Vujanic scouting report - 

At first glance, his game is eerily reminiscent of Steve Nash's, with one or two differences. Both players are fantastic shooters (Vujanic goes 4-for-9 from beyond the arc tonight). They both love to push the ball up the court, and always keep their cool even under pressure. Vujanic, however, is a better athlete and a tougher defender. 

The NBA's best point guards all have one thing in common -- the ability to split defenders and get the ball to the basket. Jason Kidd is the master of this, and Vujanic isn't far behind. 

One second he's shooting 3s. The next he's pushing the ball on the break and dishing a perfect behind-the-back pass to a trailing teammate for the jam. The next time down, he's battling for offensive rebounds, and then he's flinging himself into the stands for a loose ball. Vujanic has a killer jump stop and can pull up on a dime and sink the open jumper. 

CSKA has no answer for him. At times they triple-team him, but he always makes them pay. He is putting on a show tonight. Of all of the players we've seen on the trip, he is by far the best. His stat line at the end of the game tells most of the story: 28 points on 7 of 14 shooting, seven assists, three rebounds and three steals in 36 minutes. Most important, Partizan scores a huge upset over CSKA. 

ESPN Insider


----------



## kawika

Just a few thoughts, though tons of good points have already been made. Despite what everyone keeps saying, Marbury is NOT "young". He'll be twenty-seven next month. He is at or near his peak now. 

Other thing, what do those real-estate guys always say?: Location, location, location. The West will be won by The Lakers, Kings, Spurs and maybe Dallas or even Houston for the next four years, I guarantee it. If your goal is to get to the finals out of the west and you're not one them, you need to think real long term anyway. Phoenix was very smart to roll the dice and stockpile young talent, picks and caproom dealing their best player at his max trade value. 

In NY, they've been bad for so long and 
the east is so weak that by having a decent-to-good starting five you're in the playoffs immediately, maybe ECF or even the finals NOW, which will feed the monster that is the New York fan base and press. But they will never win the title with this crew and have mortgaged their chance of winning one so far into the future LeBron may be retired by then.


----------



## Natty Dreadlockz

We'll considering that Payton's playing at 30+, I would consider Marbury a youngin.. 27 is hardly a peak year for an quality NBA point.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Rumours also suggest Milos may not even come to the NBA. If he doesn't, he could be ten times better than Michael Jordan and it wouldn't matter.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing suggests cap room is "the best thing." If the Suns net a superstar anywhere near as good as Starbury, I'll be stunned.
> 
> 
> 
> Not this year. Not with Stoudemire hurt and coachin uncertainties.
> 
> But this young core was incredible:
> 
> Stephon Marbury
> Shawn Marion
> Amare Stoudemire
> Zarko Cabarkapa
> 
> There's no team that had a better foursome of young talent than that. No team had any young foursome anywhere *near* as talented as that.
> 
> Trading away the most irreplacable piece of that core because of a bad one-third of a season defines hastiness. And hastiness with talent is often a franchise-killer.


in the west that core is nothing. if you dont have shaq duncan or kg for the next 3-5 years your not winning a title unless they go down hurt. simple as that. Milos does want to come i dont know how old your rumors are, he would've came earlier except the knicks stiffed him with a garbage contract, and he took more money to play in barcelona. with marion getting the max, they better have enough to give stoudemire the max. as far as foursome young talent, i'd say artest, jermaine o neal, al harrington, and jamaal tinsley is up there with them. 

what about memphis?
Jason WIlliams
Mike Miller
Pau Gasol
Stromile Swift
Bonzi Wells
heck even james posey

seattle?
ray allen
collision (hurt now but at this stage you cant say zarko is far ahead of him)
rashard lewis
ronald murray
ridnour

Miami
Butler
Odom 
Wade
whoever they take this year in the lottery

Toronto
Carter
Bosh
Peterson


clips?
QRich
Brand
Maggette
Kaman
Wilcox
Jaric

warriors?
JRich
Dunleavy
Murphy
Pietrus



thats pretty solid young talent. Those young talent aren't gonna win you jack until you have a dominant big men, of course jordan era was an exception. I think you got a better chance of vujanic coming here and producing, and lampe producing combined, than stoudemire turning into a big man who can carry you to a title. I'd say you'd be very please with the trade this time next year.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Natty Dreadlockz</b>!
> We'll considering that Payton's playing at 30+, I would consider Marbury a youngin.. 27 is hardly a peak year for an quality NBA point.


27 is around or just before peak for a guard. Over 30 is over the hill by NBA standards.


----------



## sologigolos

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> 
> 
> That is the biggest reason I'm unimpressed with this trade.. I believe Phoenix pulled the trigger way too quickly. Now that Marion is back up to snuff after a dismal first month and a half, if Amare came back and they were STILL being hosed, I could understand a blockbuster deal..
> 
> But for Phoenix to be at their best, they needed all three of those guys at their best, which simply hadn't happened yet this year. There was speculation after Shawn immediately picked up his game when Amare got injured that they just don't fit together (I never saw it that way, he put on 15 pounds of muscle and needed to adjust in my mind), so if Marion's level of play drops off AGAIN, don't be surprised to see Matrix shipped as well, as RebelSun suggested..



i don't think the trade was necessarily a trade in response solely to this year's losing record. In the Wild Wild West, Marbury+Amare isn't enough to win. It comes down to whether the Suns wanted to simply contend, or go for the broke. 
So blow it up and start over. Like Ainge did with the Celtics, and like the writers suggested Thomas do when he took over the team (although he's done a lot better than that, apparently). Not saying whether it's a good move or not, or whatever--but that was the direction that Colangelo wanted to go. 

And as far as that goes, Colangelo did pretty damn well. He stocked up on the first rounders--and even if they end up being in the 20s, Colangelo is one of the smartest drafters in the league, and has consistently made good choices late in the first round. Vujanic and Lampe are immensely unproven, and they can turn out to be complete busts, but that's essentially getting two skilled first rounders in the positions that they need--front court and point guard. Lampe was projected as high as a 5th overall pick before the draft, and Vujanic is hyped to be the best PG in the league. Joe Johnson's been looking like he can step in and play a big role, and Barbosa has been playing pretty well when he's been on the court. 

IN NO WAY AM I SAYING THAT Barbosa = Marbury, or that Lampe and Vujanic WILL BECOME SUPERSTARS! They have potential, and that's what the Suns went for, not current talent. But all is not lost with the Suns. 

Eisley will definitely be a pain in the butt, but they have placed themselves in a very good situation for this year's FA class.

Knicks came out winners like crazy. But it's not that the Suns or Colangelo was victimized. This is what they intended to do.


----------



## Natty Dreadlockz

Nah.. I disagree.. There really is no peak year's for point's.. If they've got the skill's and are still in shape they'll get the job done.


----------



## Greg Ostertag!

Miami and Seattle had probably the closest you could get to Phoenix's outstanding young nucleus, before the trade. But make no mistake, Phoenix line-up of young guns was leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the competition.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>Bad Bartons</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly!
> 
> Phoenix has just been fleeced!
> 
> New York has just resurrected interest and hope into an organization that has not had either for a few years.
> 
> Unbelievable!
> 
> Maybe the draft picks will turn into stars.
> Maybe the Suns will be able to sign Kobe.
> Maybe the guys that the Suns got will help the team to be better.
> And maybe the Earth will collide with the Sun and burn to nothing.
> 
> I do not know what the Suns are thinking.
> 
> Stephon Marbury is a superstar in this league.
> He is improving every year.
> He is still young.
> You do not find players like this very easily and when you do you keep them if you can.


keep them if you can?? the dudes been traded 4 times already!!!! when was the last time a scoring type pg's team was even in the nba finals?? i'm sure the nets twolves, and bucks are crying about trading away stephon. One you guys get vujanic next year you'll forget all about starbury. Geez you treat those maybe's like winning the lottery, your odds arent that bad. Look at teh depth in this years draft, even a mid rounder right now on nbadraft.net you can nab a raymond felton or anderson varejo.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Greg Ostertag!</b>!
> Miami and Seattle had probably the closest you could get to Phoenix's outstanding young nucleus, before the trade. But make no mistake, Phoenix line-up of young guns was leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the competition.


But they were also leaps and bounds behind them in the win column.


----------



## Greg Ostertag!

How much would Zeke love to take the Van Horn deal back (despite not making it). Sprewell + Marbury? Street cred, brotha!


----------



## jokeaward

> Originally posted by <b>kawika</b>!
> Other thing, what do those real-estate guys always say?: Location, location, location. The West will be won by The Lakers, Kings, Spurs and maybe Dallas or even Houston for the next four years, I guarantee it.


I wouldn't guarantee that. But I can't REALLY fault you for saying it.

The big three and Houston were already down-the-road contenders.

Old? Kidd's 31 or so and he was the main FA this offseason. PGs break down later. Stockton was 40+ and was still arguably better than Fisher and Parker.


----------



## Bad Bartons

*Steph is young*

Stephon at 27 is still young. 

Look at Kidd, Payton.

Look at what Stockton did in his 30s.

Even guys like Mark Jackson and Dennis Johnson had great careers well into their 30s.

I do not think that Stephon has peaked. He has gooten better every year in the NBA. This move to NY may put him over.

I think he has at least three more years before he starts to plateau in terms of physical skill. Then he may become like the others I have mentioned in that he gets wiser as he ages.


----------



## rebelsun

I don't think you can compare Steph w/ Stockton. John's court awareness was off the charts. Steph's game is much different.


----------



## Bad Bartons

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> 
> 
> keep them if you can?? the dudes been traded 4 times already!!!! when was the last time a scoring type pg's team was even in the nba finals?? i'm sure the nets twolves, and bucks are crying about trading away stephon. One you guys get vujanic next year you'll forget all about starbury. Geez you treat those maybe's like winning the lottery, your odds arent that bad. Look at teh depth in this years draft, even a mid rounder right now on nbadraft.net you can nab a raymond felton or anderson varejo.


I still think that losing Stephon and gambling on the uncertainty of draft picks or getting Kobe is a bad decision.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> But they were also leaps and bounds behind them in the win column.


not indiana, not clips anymore, seattle's young core finally has allen, miami has butler and wade go down, carters been out. those young cores were hurt too just like phoenix was this year.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> 
> 
> in the west that core is nothing. if you dont have shaq duncan or kg for the next 3-5 years your not winning a title unless they go down hurt. simple as that.


Wrong. You have to have an excellent big man, which Phoenix was developing in Amare Stoudemire. Having a brilliant point guard and wing player would definitely have made them one of the best in the West when/if Stoudemire become a star.

On top of the Cabarkapa had the making of a legitimate center. Star-quality if lucky, but high likelihood of being solid, which would have been impactful enough.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>Bad Bartons</b>!
> 
> 
> I still think that losing Stephon and gambling on the uncertainty of draft picks or getting Kobe is a bad decision.


by trading stephone you gave yourself 6 gambles

lampe
vujanic
1st round pick of knicks
1st roudn pick of knicks next year
landing a FA
pretty much ensuring doing nothing for the rest of the year to get more ping pongf balls

thats a pretty good gamble in my estimation


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> On top of the Cabarkapa had the making of a legitimate center.


Bro, have you ever seen him play? He is a 235lb perimeter player. His game is on the outside. He is closer to SF than to C.


----------



## Bad Bartons

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> I don't think you can compare Steph w/ Stockton. John's court awareness was off the charts. Steph's game is much different.


True.

I was just using Stock as an example of a great point guard that played great well into his 30s.

Stephon is not in the same category as John Stockton (who is a top 3 all time point guard). 

I do consider Stephon young still. And what he will lose in youth he will make up for in experience. I have seen his game maturing so much the past couple of seasons and he may be even better back home.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> You guys gotta remember the cap situation they were in. They have been desperate to move Penny's contract


Why so desperate? It expires in two years (hardly long-term crippling) which is about when one can expect Stoudemire to be where Phoenix needs him to contend.

To me, in fact, if getting rid of Penny's deal was the impetus, then this was *really* a foolish deal. Penny's deal would have expired at about the time the team would have been looking towards the title. In a year, in fact, the team may have been able to deal Penny as an *asset*, an expiring contract.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> 
> 
> by trading stephone you gave yourself 6 gambles
> 
> lampe
> vujanic
> 1st round pick of knicks
> 1st roudn pick of knicks next year
> landing a FA
> pretty much ensuring doing nothing for the rest of the year to get more ping pongf balls
> 
> thats a pretty good gamble in my estimation


What wasn't a gamble was the fact that they are overpaying players to be in last place. That team would not win a championship w/in 3 years. Amare would have to be resigned and they are better off trading Marbury now, while he is relatively young and his stock is high. It was either now or later, and the Colangelos had the guts to pull the trigger now. They had the forsight to scream uncle, and start over again. This was a good team, but we weren't gonna beat the Lakers or Spurs in the playoffs.


----------



## AstheFranchiz2K2

IM GONNA BE AT THE GAME!!!!!!


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> Bro, have you ever seen him play? He is a 235lb perimeter player. His game is on the outside. He is closer to SF than to C.


Rick Smits was a perimeter center. Yao Ming is currently a perimeter center.

You can be a legitimate center and be a shooter. I never said he looked like a post monster. Just that he looks like a good talent at the center position.

Stoudemire is the one the Suns need to become a monster in the post.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Wrong. You have to have an excellent big man, which Phoenix was developing in Amare Stoudemire. Having a brilliant point guard and wing player would definitely have made them one of the best in the West when/if Stoudemire become a star.
> 
> On top of the Cabarkapa had the making of a legitimate center. Star-quality if lucky, but high likelihood of being solid, which would have been impactful enough.


gimem a break, here you are telling me all these hopes of vujanic and lampe etc and then your arguement for keeping marbury is
Hoping stoudemire becomes a star
and
Hoping Cabarkapa is a legit center. Sorry but your ideal situation calls for marbury taking a back seat to amare, that would have never happened.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> To me, in fact, if getting rid of Penny's deal was the impetus, then this was *really* a foolish deal. Penny's deal would have expired at about the time the team would have been looking towards the title. In a year, in fact, the team may have been able to deal Penny as an *asset*, an expiring contract.


Are you saying keep Penny around so they can deal a 35 y/o G thats making 12 mil. The Colangelos are smart enough to realize this group wasn't getting the job done. The attendance was dwindling, and their play was decreasing. I believe this was a necessary business move. You gotta remember this is a business, and they aren't going to pay people millions of dollars to not contribute to winning. Good businessmen don't fall in love w/ employees. If they are not doing the job, changes need to be made. Changes were made.

And guys, you have to gamble in this league. You don't want to gamble, then you take Shane Battier #1 overall.


----------



## WhoDaBest23

WOW is all I have to say. I can't believe that the Suns traded Marbury, but at least they get those 2 first round draft picks. This should make NY a playoff team in the weak east, pending injury. Marbury should thrive under the New York spotlight..

Marbury V.S. Kidd rivalry!


----------



## KIMCHI

EXCELLENT TRADE FOR THE SUNS !!!!!!


you guys just watch how knicks fans kill zeke in execution style when playoffs begin, basically knicks throw away their future for the present, they take a even bigger gamble than phoenix, basically they got stock with their current lineup, stuck with huge salary, no future pick (NO FUTURE) !!!!!!, basically theres no way out, they are not giving themselves a chance.
its either playoff or DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
win or lose, either way it will be bad for the knicks since they lose all their future pick anyway, and one of those picks might turn out to be a superstar in making.

on the other hand, for phoenix, with or without starbury is not going to make any major difference, they cant go deep in the playoff either way, and he is getting older, yes, older, while retain younger guys with much much more upside in amare and matrix in the same time getting another superstar from one of knicks first round pick (one of them might be lottery), as well as development of some younger guys like milos vujanic and marcej lampe (is lampe part of the deal ??)


basically you trade away your future and young players with scary upside for an esteblished star who isnt necessisary gonna help your team in the long term (dude is in his 8th year in the league, he was not a high schooler when he enter the draft back in 96, so its not like hes still a spring chicken)

chances of suns getting one of their young players and top picks into superstar is a lot higher than starbury helping the franchise in the long run.

foundation of building a successful franchise rely on draft pick
and smart trade rather than a couple of established star (in this case, just one esteblished star), its extremely idiotic to trade away the future for present.
look for knicks to sink for a long.....long time
even if knicks make the playoff....so what ??
you better make sure starbury take the team into playoff
every year, coz with a current payroll like this, they dont have
any flexibility to improve themselves through trade, especially they are stuck with no draft pick left.

advantage present

knicks : 60
suns : 40

advantage future

knicks : 10
suns : 90

a win-win situation for the suns and lose-lose situation for the knicks


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Rick Smits was a perimeter center. Yao Ming is currently a perimeter center.
> 
> You can be a legitimate center and be a shooter. I never said he looked like a post monster. Just that he looks like a good talent at the center position.
> 
> Stoudemire is the one the Suns need to become a monster in the post.


Bro, his ideal NBA position is PF if he puts on weight. He is out playing the 3, because he can't bang yet. His NBA position is not C. Just because he is 6'11, doesn't automatically make him a C. Vlad Rad is not a C. Toni Kukoc is not a C. Tim Thomas, etc.


----------



## Bad Bartons

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> 
> 
> by trading stephone you gave yourself 6 gambles
> 
> lampe
> vujanic
> 1st round pick of knicks
> 1st roudn pick of knicks next year
> landing a FA
> pretty much ensuring doing nothing for the rest of the year to get more ping pongf balls
> 
> thats a pretty good gamble in my estimation


Good points. But still a huge gamble at even GETTING talent like Stephon. Let alone being able to develop it before it is gone.


----------



## jokeaward

Well maybe he isn't Stockton, but he sure isn't a 7-footer that might wear down and break, and that huge, long contract might bite you.

Will new Suns be at tonight's game? I doubt it, but he seems excited.

OT: I think the Kidd-Marbury trade was in Yahoo front-page headlines and this isn't. FWIW, which is little.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>jokeaward</b>!
> Will new Suns be at tonight's game? I doubt it, but he seems excited.


If they aren't the Suns may not hit 60 pts.


----------



## PhatDaddy3100

yep.


----------



## PHXSPORTS4LIFE

*Re: Steph is young*



> Originally posted by <b>Bad Bartons</b>!
> Stephon at 27 is still young.
> 
> Look at Kidd, Payton.
> 
> Look at what Stockton did in his 30s.
> 
> Even guys like Mark Jackson and Dennis Johnson had great careers well into their 30s.
> 
> I do not think that Stephon has peaked. He has gooten better every year in the NBA. This move to NY may put him over.
> 
> I think he has at least three more years before he starts to plateau in terms of physical skill. Then he may become like the others I have mentioned in that he gets wiser as he ages.


look, i love steph, and i'm sad to see him leave, but gotten better every year? he's already less athletic than when he first came. the few surgeries he's had have limited his formerly amazing hops. and really, he's played worse this year than last. throw out stats, i've watched him over the past two years. he's still amazing and entertaining, but he ain't pulling out close victories as he did last year. he's not getting any better. he's one of the top 3 pgs for sure, but he's at his peak.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> 
> 
> gimem a break, here you are telling me all these hopes of vujanic and lampe etc and then your arguement for keeping marbury is
> Hoping stoudemire becomes a star
> and
> Hoping Cabarkapa is a legit center.


It relies very little on Cabarkapa. Cabarkapa is just gravy.

And Stoudemire represents a *much* better prospect than Lampe *or* Vujanic. Stoudemire has shown not only flashes of greatness but also the *desire* and aggression to play inside. That's a hugely important characteristic.

A top big man, a top point guard and a top small forward is very much a championship contender. It rides on Amare becoming a top big man, but his NBA production compared to age bodes very well for him.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> EXCELLENT TRADE FOR THE SUNS !!!!!!
> 
> 
> you guys just watch how knicks fans kill zeke in execution style when playoffs begin, basically knicks throw away their future for the present, they take a even bigger gamble than phoenix, basically they got stock with their current lineup, stuck with huge salary, no future pick (NO FUTURE) !!!!!!, basically theres no way out, they are not giving themselves a chance.
> its either playoff or DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
> win or lose, either way it will be bad for the knicks since they lose all their future pick anyway, and one of those picks might turn out to be a superstar in making.
> 
> on the other hand, for phoenix, with or without starbury is not going to make any major difference, they can go deep in the playoff either way, and he is getting older, yes, older, while retain younger guys with much much more upside in amare and matrix in the same time getting another superstar from one of knicks first round pick (one of them might be lottery), as well as development of some younger guys like milos vujanic and marcej lampe (is lampe part of the deal ??)
> 
> 
> basically you trade away your future and young players with scary upside for an esteblished star who isnt necessisary gonna help your team in the long term (dude is in his 8th year in the league, he was not a high schooler when he enter the draft back in 96, so its not like hes still a spring chicken)
> 
> chances of suns getting one of their young players and top picks into superstar is a lot higher than starbury helping the franchise in the long run.
> 
> foundation of building a successful franchise rely on draft pick
> and smart trade rather than a couple of established star (in this case, just one esteblished star), its extremely idiotic to trade away the future for present.
> look for knicks to sink for a long.....long time
> even if knicks make the playoff....so what ??
> you better make sure starbury take the team into playoff
> every year, coz with a current payroll like this, they dont have
> any flexibility to improve themselves through trade, especially they are stuck with no draft pick left.
> 
> advantage present
> 
> knicks : 60
> suns : 40
> 
> advantage future
> 
> knicks : 10
> suns : 90
> 
> a win-win situation for the suns and lose-lose situation for the knicks


thank yOU!!! this guy gets it.!!! actually from knicks front office side its a win cuz they're about getting people in teh seats, they could care less about championships and the future. As long as they have enough to keep peopel buzzing and buying tix


----------



## KIMCHI

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> 27 is around or just before peak for a guard. Over 30 is over the hill by NBA standards.


for guards

over 40 - 144 years old for human standard

37 - 39 - great grandpa

35 - 37 - very very old and near the end of career

33 - 35 - decling rapidly

31 - 33 - showing sign of decling

over 30 - over the hill


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> Bro, his ideal NBA position is PF if he puts on weight. He is out playing the 3, because he can't bang yet. His NBA position is not C. Just because he is 6'11, doesn't automatically make him a C. Vlad Rad is not a C. Toni Kukoc is not a C. Tim Thomas, etc.


With Stoudemire locking up the power forward spot for years to come, if Cabarkapa shows any ability, he *will* play center, just to get him on the court.

He's not a banger-type. He's a perimeter-oriented type of center. It's not ideal, but still puts you ahead of the majority of teams that play stiffs at center.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> It relies very little on Cabarkapa. Cabarkapa is just gravy.
> 
> And Stoudemire represents a *much* better prospect than Lampe *or* Vujanic. Stoudemire has shown not only flashes of greatness but also the *desire* and aggression to play inside. That's a hugely important characteristic.


Stoudamire is the man in PHX right now, I don't know if anyone is arguing that. Milos should be very good, and Lampe is more of a project.


----------



## PHXSPORTS4LIFE

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> On top of the Cabarkapa had the making of a legitimate center. Star-quality if lucky, but high likelihood of being solid, which would have been impactful enough.


zarko is not, and never will be, a center. he's far too slight of build. his game is also not suited for the post, even the high post.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you saying keep Penny around so they can deal a 35 y/o G thats making 12 mil. The Colangelos are smart enough to realize this group wasn't getting the job done. The attendance was dwindling, and their play was decreasing. I believe this was a necessary business move. You gotta remember this is a business, and they aren't going to pay people millions of dollars to not contribute to winning. Good businessmen don't fall in love w/ employees. If they are not doing the job, changes need to be made. Changes were made.
> 
> And guys, you have to gamble in this league. You don't want to gamble, then you take Shane Battier #1 overall.


or jay williams


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> Are you saying keep Penny around so they can deal a 35 y/o G thats making 12 mil.


For the good of the team, yes. You don't trade away Marbury just to get rid of an overpaid player who you might even be able to trade for something useful in a year, as an expiring contract.

It has nothing to do with business. They'll pay just as much this season, paying McDyess a lot to "not help the team win."

Next season, they'll save, but they probably could have saved his salary for most of the season by trading him to a team who wants him as an expiring contract.

Business-wise, this still doesn't seem all that brilliant. Plus you lose Marbury, and all his marketing appeal.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> With Stoudemire locking up the power forward spot for years to come, if Cabarkapa shows any ability, he *will* play center, just to get him on the court.
> 
> He's not a banger-type. He's a perimeter-oriented type of center. It's not ideal, but still puts you ahead of the majority of teams that play stiffs at center.


He is a big man, but that does not automatically make him a C. When Z comes into the game w/ Amare, Amare slides to C or PF, while Z goes to the 3 or 4. Its not right to call him a C, he plays 3 positions, ideally PF.


----------



## PHXSPORTS4LIFE

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Rick Smits was a perimeter center. Yao Ming is currently a perimeter center.
> 
> You can be a legitimate center and be a shooter. I never said he looked like a post monster. Just that he looks like a good talent at the center position.


you cannot even begin to compare zarko with smits and ming. those two had solid bases from which to work, zarko is narrow all the way down. he'd have zero chance bodying up centers on defense. now smits and ming aren't monster defenders, but they could hold ground. zarko will never be able to do so. take a look at zarko (who btw is 6'11) and see if he compares to smits (who btw was 7'4) and ming (who btw is 7'5).


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> He is a big man, but that does not automatically make him a C. When Z comes into the game w/ Amare, Amare slides to C or PF, while Z goes to the 3 or 4. Its not right to call him a C, he plays 3 positions, ideally PF.


It may be that he'll slide around, but that's orthogonal to my point, which is: The Suns had four talented young players for five positions.

Then they traded away the best and most irreplacable one, in my opinion. For a couple of prospects who represent serious risks.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> For the good of the team, yes. You don't trade away Marbury just to get rid of an overpaid player who you might even be able to trade for something useful in a year, as an expiring contract.
> 
> It has nothing to do with business. They'll pay just as much this season, paying McDyess a lot to "not help the team win."
> 
> Next season, they'll save, but they probably could have saved his salary for most of the season by trading him to a team who wants him as an expiring contract.
> 
> Business-wise, this still doesn't seem all that brilliant. Plus you lose Marbury, and all his marketing appeal.



Keeping a broke Penny at 12mil a year is best for the team? I understand that trading Penny's contract was part of the deal, but it certainly wasn't the entire reason for pulling the trigger. The Suns need cap space and, quite frankly, these two handsomely paid guards were not getting the job done. 

Bro, you just don't pay someone $40 to play mediocre ball for 3 years just so you can trade their expiring contracts. I think you are heavily overestimating the value of expiring contracts. That is not good business. 

They may lose temporary marketing appeal, but if they land Kobe, which they have a very good chance at doing, they will start selling out the AWA.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> It may be that he'll slide around, but that's orthogonal to my point, which is: The Suns had four talented young players for five positions.
> 
> Then they traded away the best and most irreplacable one, in my opinion. For a couple of prospects who represent serious risks.


Do you honestly believe that those guys could win a championship w/in 3 years? Honestly, they may win a series here or there, but they weren't title-caliber. The Colangelos don't play to lose.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> It relies very little on Cabarkapa. Cabarkapa is just gravy.
> 
> And Stoudemire represents a *much* better prospect than Lampe *or* Vujanic. Stoudemire has shown not only flashes of greatness but also the *desire* and aggression to play inside. That's a hugely important characteristic.
> 
> A top big man, a top point guard and a top small forward is very much a championship contender. It rides on Amare becoming a top big man, but his NBA production compared to age bodes very well for him.


LOL!!!!! first off you include zarko in your "suns have best 4some" schpleel now your calling him gravy? ahahha top point guard is NOT!!! i repeat NOT necessary for the title. You need a guy to run the point, but by no means does he have to be a superstar!!!! Tony Parker and Speedy CLaxton werent top PG's, neither was avery johnson, neither was derek fisher. Sure they have payton now, but they were a contender without him. When the lakers creamed the sixers who was their pg? ERic Snow.

A top big man makes you a title contender regardless of whether or not you have a top PG. back when the knicks had 50 win season who was their pg? rivers, harper, greg anthony. a top big man an ok supporting cast is now enough to be a title contender, the question is if you cant have the top big man where are you going to find help, marbury himself isnt the answer. even if amare needs anotehr 2 years to develop into a top big man, marbury would be nearing 30


----------



## The_Franchise

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you honestly believe that those guys could win a championship w/in 3 years? Honestly, they may win a series here or there, but they weren't title-caliber. The Colangelos don't play to lose.


Well atleast you included Marion and Amare in your sig... the *assumption* of Kobe and Pavel being Suns, Vujanic being capable of starting as an NBA PG, would that would be enough to win a championship?


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> 
> 
> Well atleast you included Marion and Amare in your sig...


My sig is very wishful. If Kobe heads to PHX, I really don't think Matrix will be there too.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> 
> 
> Well atleast you included Marion and Amare in your sig... the *assumption* of Kobe and Pavel being Suns, Vujanic being capable of starting as an NBA PG, would that would be enough to win a championship?


Yes it is part assumption, but they realistically have a decent chance at having Kobe Bryant play for the Phoenix Suns. Pavel is wishful thinking. 

I certainly like that starting 5 over this year's.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> 
> 
> LOL!!!!! first off you include zarko in your "suns have best 4some" schpleel now your calling him gravy?


Yes. Your point? They *did* have the best foursome, with Cabarkapa included, but they did not *need* Cabarkapa. He's just a nice fourth talent to have.



> ahahha top point guard is NOT!!! i repeat NOT necessary for the title. You need a guy to run the point, but by no means does he have to be a superstar!!!!


Wow. Through all those exclamation points, did you happen to actually read my post? I never said a superstar point guard is *required* to win a championship. However, a top player at three positions (one of them happening to be point guard) is a very good route to a title.



> A top big man makes you a title contender regardless of whether or not you have a top PG. back when the knicks had 50 win season who was their pg? rivers, harper, greg anthony.


And how many championships did those Knicks win? Somewhere in the vicinity of zero?

A top big man (which Stoudemire hopefully can be) also needs other great talent, which the Knicks never found for Ewing. The Suns had it in Marbury and Marion.

You spent about a thousand words refuting a point I never made, that a top point guard is necessary. The point is that you need a top big man and *other excellent players to surround him*. The Suns had that in development. Now, they have to pray Vujanic comes to the NBA and becomes a star.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> They *did* have the best foursome, with Cabarkapa included, but they did not *need* Cabarkapa. He's just a nice fourth talent to have.


Bro, if they didn't need anyone else, why didn't they win the championship last year? Why are they the worst team in the West this year? Marbury is reaching his physical peak, how much better can he get?


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes. Your point? They *did* have the best foursome, with Cabarkapa included, but they did not *need* Cabarkapa. He's just a nice fourth talent to have.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. Through all those exclamation points, did you happen to actually read my post? I never said a superstar point guard is *required* to win a championship. However, a top player at three positions (one of them happening to be point guard) is a very good route to a title.
> 
> 
> 
> And how many championships did those Knicks win? Somewhere in the vicinity of zero?
> 
> A top big man (which Stoudemire hopefully can be) also needs other great talent, which the Knicks never found for Ewing. The Suns had it in Marbury and Marion.
> 
> You spent about a thousand words refuting a point I never made, that a top point guard is necessary. The point is that you need a top big man and *other excellent players to surround him*. The Suns had that in development. Now, they have to pray Vujanic comes to the NBA and becomes a star.


the knicks got further than marbury has ever taken a team. You find teh big man then you surround him with players. You dont surround a potential big man with players.


----------



## PHXSPORTS4LIFE

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> 
> 
> Well atleast you included Marion and Amare in your sig... the *assumption* of Kobe and Pavel being Suns, Vujanic being capable of starting as an NBA PG, would that would be enough to win a championship?


if we got kobe and pavel was even an adequate center (12 pts and 10 rebs) we'd be championship contenders. even with just a caretaker at pg.


----------



## Amareca

Well Marbury is the best or 2nd best PG right now but he is still overpaid.

The Suns needed to extent him because otherwise he could have opted out.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> Bro, if they didn't need anyone else, why didn't they win the championship last year?


Because Stoudemire was not a star last year. He's merely a budding star. I said that when/if Stoudemire becomes a star, that's a championship core.

Even with Stoudemire as a rookie, the Suns still gave the eventual champion Spurs a hefty run for their money. That means a lot more than a weak one-third of a season.

They needed an excellent coach...not to trade away their best player.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Because Stoudemire was not a star last year. He's merely a budding star. I said that when/if Stoudemire becomes a star, that's a championship core.
> 
> Even with Stoudemire as a rookie, the Suns still gave the eventual champion Spurs a hefty run for their money. That means a lot more than a weak one-third of a season.
> 
> They needed an excellent coach...not to trade away their best player.


so your telling me you dont want marbury traded for lampe, vujanic, 2 first rounders, and a higher 1st round pick for yourself this year because of the simple fact your hoping amare turns into a superstar before marbury gets too old?


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Because Stoudemire was not a star last year. He's merely a budding star. I said that when/if Stoudemire becomes a star, that's a championship core.
> 
> Even with Stoudemire as a rookie, the Suns still gave the eventual champion Spurs a hefty run for their money. That means a lot more than a weak one-third of a season.
> 
> They needed an excellent coach...not to trade away their best player.


Bro, do you understand the salary cap? In just a couple years, the Suns are going to have to resign Amare, likely to a max deal. It was either now or later. They are playing awful right now; I think it was the perfect time. They were fortunate enough to move Penny's deal. They get picks and young players to either keep or use as trade bait. They are in a spot to land a top 5 player next year. The Suns were going nowhere awfully fast. 

What better coach was available? D'Antoni is highly regarded around the league and almost was hired in Milwaukee.

So even if they are in last place, your best player (who is probably not a top 10 player) is untouchable?

No offense bro, but I would not want you as my GM. You want to coast along like Layden? Not in this league; not if you want to win. Not if you want to keep your fans.


----------



## JNice

The more I look into this, it looks like Phoenix really got the best of this. If they actually get Vujanic to come to the NBA and Lampe ever turns into anything ... and if they can sign Kobe, which at this point you have to think if Kobe is ready to leave LA, Phoenix might now be the front-runner ...

I know Isaih is trying to move quickly, but he certainly isn't helping that team's cap flexibility ... and taking on an extremely talented PG who has never shown the ability to carry a team ...

I think NY will end up being very sorry about this trade ...


----------



## JNice

D'Antoni as a former Italian league coach might have the inside track on Kobe .. if that hasnt already been mention. I'm not going to read through this whole thread.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> D'Antoni as a former Italian league coach might have the inside track on Kobe .. if that hasnt already been mention. I'm not going to read through this whole thread.


One more reason for optimism in PHX.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> One more reason for optimism in PHX.


Well, if your sig comes true, with Lampe, Zarko, and Barbosa coming off the bench ... man .. i'd would be optimistic too.

It might come down to if Kobe wants to play with Q, Maggette, Brand, Kaman ... or Vujanic, Marion, Stoudemire, and Pavel (if that happens) ... If so, Phoenix's organization would almost definitely win over Sterling's clips.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> It might come down to if Kobe wants to play with Q, Maggette, Brand, Kaman ... or Vujanic, Marion, Stoudemire, and Pavel (if that happens) ... If so, Phoenix's organization would almost definitely win over Sterling's clips.


That's the hope. I think he may want to leave L.A. all together. PHX is basically LA with dirt instead of ocean.


----------



## Amareca

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> What better coach was available? D'Antoni is highly regarded around the league and almost was hired in Milwaukee.


Milwaukee interviewed Iavaroni not D'Antoni.

Anyway I don't think D'antoni is a long term solution. But the best thing is to hire a head coach in the offseason because it gives him much more time to prepare.

Go for Riley, Tomjanovic someone like that.

Chad Ford said something on the radio about D'Antoni having some sort of connection to Kobe.

Bryan Colangelo also said something about potentially other deals to get more capspace.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> 
> 
> Milwaukee interviewed Iavaroni not D'Antoni.
> 
> Anyway I don't think D'antoni is a long term solution. But the best thing is to hire a head coach in the offseason because it gives him much more time to prepare.
> 
> Go for Riley, Tomjanovic someone like that.
> 
> Chad Ford said something on the radio about D'Antoni having some sort of connection to Kobe.
> 
> Bryan Colangelo also said something about potentially other deals to get more capspace.


My bad, I got the names mixed up. Kobe used to live in Italy, probably right around the time D'Antoni was a star there. They probably met when Kobe was a kid or something. I think Kobe wouldn't mind a familiar face in a new atmosphere after this trial.


----------



## Vinsanity

holy ****


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> Bro, do you understand the salary cap? In just a couple years, the Suns are going to have to resign Amare, likely to a max deal. It was either now or later.


Your obvious point about having to re-sign Stoudemire had nothing to do with knowledge of the cap. I have an excellent understanding of the cap.



> They are playing awful right now


Wow, that's definitely a great GM principle. We're playing "awful" right now. End of that. Time to rebuild.



> What better coach was available?


Rudy Tomjanovich. If he wasn't interested, someone else later. I didn't say they already should have that coach in place. I was saying that their focus should have been on a championship-caliber coach to pair with their future championship-caliber core, not on trading their franchise player.



> So even if they are in last place, your best player (who is probably not a top 10 player) is untouchable?[/QUOE]
> 
> He probably is top-ten. And no one is untouchable, but they didn't get near his worth, in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No offense bro, but I would not want you as my GM. You want to coast along like Layden? Not in this league; not if you want to win. Not if you want to keep your fans.
> 
> 
> 
> No offense, "bro," but it's a bit simplistic to not realize that there's something in between "Layden" and "dealing away a rare superstar just to shake things up."
> 
> Don't try to lecture me on what has proven to not work in the league. Trading away your talent to get under the cap and get draft picks has never worked.
> 
> Fans naturally have little patience. One bad stretch and it's clear that core is worthless.
Click to expand...


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> The more I look into this, it looks like Phoenix really got the best of this. If they actually get Vujanic to come to the NBA and Lampe ever turns into anything ... and if they can sign Kobe, which at this point you have to think if Kobe is ready to leave LA, Phoenix might now be the front-runner ...
> 
> I know Isaih is trying to move quickly, but he certainly isn't helping that team's cap flexibility ... <b>and taking on an extremely talented PG who has never shown the ability to carry a team ...</b>
> 
> I think NY will end up being very sorry about this trade ...


In my years of watching this great game, I can think of <b>only ONE PG</b> who carried his team, was the one who lead his team without looking like he did. In other words, he let another BIG man on his team think he was "The Man", when Magic was "The Man" on his team.

I think Great pgs are necessary to a winning team - IF that team does not employ the triangle offense.

I am surprised at this trade and have yet to digest it all. My first thought was how much money the Suns will have to get either a Kobe or a TMac next year.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> The more I look into this, it looks like Phoenix really got the best of this. If they actually get Vujanic to come to the NBA and Lampe ever turns into anything ... and if they can sign Kobe, which at this point you have to think if Kobe is ready to leave LA, Phoenix might now be the front-runner ...


*chuckle* Kind of like "if we get Duncan, and if McGrady becomes a superstar and if we draft well, we'll be a great team" or "if Curry and Chandler become Shaq and KG and if Jamal Crawford becomes a star, look out for the Bulls."

I have to say...it's amazing how many times this plays out: Team gets rid of proven talent, bottoms out, gets cap space and draft picks, fans talk about how great the team is going to be (all they need is a superstar to come via free agency, and the team is always amazingly the front-runner) and then a whole lot of nothing is the result.

Even if the Suns fail *also*, rest assured that the next team that comes up with this brilliant, new idea will be hailed as the next dynasty in the making.

It's like a willowisp...it's obviously illusion, yet people keep following it.


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> 
> 
> You don't think Utah would go for Jahidi White and NY's 2004 first for Keon Clark? It looks like Clark might not even be back for a couple of months, and Utah's big men are so injured that on top of already having two of the biggest scrubs in the NBA in Jarron Collins and Michael Ruffin, they had to sign Ben Handlogten and Paul Grant, a 1997 draft pick who hasn't played in the NBA since then, and has career averages of .7pts and .7 rebounds.
> 
> The Jazz are going to have 28 million in cap room, and Jahidi's deal is done in 2005, and right now they desperately need a (healthy) big man. Can you tell me which high caliber 2004 free agents Utah is going to spend 28 million on? As far as I can tell, this years FA crop is almost pitiful, aside from the possibility of Bryant.
> 
> That's just my opinion anyways.


Not trying to gloat, but the Bulls announcers just mentioned as soon as White checked in that there were rumors he would be shipped to Utah within the next few days.

It is clear what Phoenix's agenda is.


----------



## jokeaward

If the Suns have cap space, here's a rough FA list. There might be missing extensions.

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/memphis.htm

Kobe, doy
Vlade
Troy Hudson
Jason Terry
Mike Miller
Kukoc
Adonal Foyle
Rashard Lewis
Brent Barry
Traylor, Maggloire, Rooks
Ron Mercer
Garrity and Giricek
Eric Williams
JR Bremer
Ostertag
Lenard
J Barry
Rodney White
Chris Whitney


----------



## Arclite

That list is not accurate.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> 
> It is clear what Phoenix's agenda is.


Oh, I agree. But I don't think Phoenix is getting Bryant and then what? McGrady?

Have you looked at how many superstars have actually changed teams during free agency *since* the new CBA?

The odds are highly against the Suns replacing Marbury with a free agent superstar. The Lakers can offer Bryant the most and almost assuredly will. For all the talk that Bryant wants to the "the man" somewhere else, I seriously doubt he's doing to turn down the biggest money, best market, and one of the best teams just to be the Man on a rebuilding project.

McGrady, at least, won't have the "best team" inducement, but he'll still be looking at the most money in Orlando plus the fact that Orlando (among NBA cities) is essentially his home town.

If this deal assumed Bryant or McGrady in orange and blue, I think someone didn't pay enough attention to history.


----------



## PhatDaddy3100

I think Magloire is a FA, and if he is, we should definetly go and get him.


----------



## jokeaward

Oops, I linked to Memphis. http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

Well I know Ostertag will be available. He can board and serve his role. Williams, too.

T-Hud might be an option. It's certainly possible for him to end up in PHX.


----------



## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>PhatDaddy3100</b>!
> I think Magloire is a FA, and if he is, we should definetly go and get him.


*Resigned for 3 or 4 more years*


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> 
> 
> Not trying to gloat, but the Bulls announcers just mentioned as soon as White checked in that there were rumors he would be shipped to Utah within the next few days.
> 
> It is clear what Phoenix's agenda is.


At guard, for your Phoenix Suns, #8...Kobeeeeeee Bryyyyyyyyaaaant.


----------



## HallOfFamer

I woke up at 3:30 PM this afternoon and at first I was like  . then I turn on Sportscenter and I hear about this trade I was like . At first I thought it was a steal for the Knicks, now Ive read this whole thread and Im convinced that this is an even better deal for the Suns.


----------



## HallOfFamer

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> At guard, for your Phoenix Suns, #8...Kobeeeeeee Bryyyyyyyyaaaant.


NOOO! please, I really hope that doesnt happen.:no: :no:


----------



## RR 823

Wow, I just heard about this trade, busy all day  . 

I'd say it's a good trade by both teams. Phoenix, right now last in the West, free up some cap space, gain decent veteran talent through McDyess, Eisley, and Ward, and also get a young prospect in Lampe. 

New York, on the other hand, gets veteranship as well, and of course a superstar in Marbury. With Marbury and Houston in the backcourt, they're easily the second most talented1 and 2 in the league behind GP/Kobe. Marbury will fit well in NY, mainly because of his And 1 background.


----------



## Amareca

I definately think that the Suns will offer Kobe the max. They will ship Jahidi most likely to get that much more cap space.

Kobe would probably wear #33 though because that is his original number


----------



## Amareca

Starbosa

Wow he can make Colangelo look like a genius.


He still can't speak english very well, he is young, he starts his first game at PG after the leader and superstar of the team is traded, the team was stuck in Milwaukee in a snow storm and got to Chicago with a bus today and what is he doing?

Leads his team in scoring at the half!

I told you.


----------



## Minstrel

Well, anyway, I wish the Suns well, even though I think I don't like this deal. 

I kinda like the Suns (though Marbury was part of that). Hopefully, it works out for them.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Well, anyway, I wish the Suns well, even though I think I don't like this deal.
> 
> I kinda like the Suns (though Marbury was part of that). Hopefully, it works out for them.


I like the trade even if we can't get Kobe. We have much greater options now.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Don't try to lecture me on what has proven to not work in the league. Trading away your talent to get under the cap and get draft picks has never worked.
> 
> Fans naturally have little patience.


Oh, I'm sorry Mr. Colangelo. I forgot you're not a fan, rather an NBA executive.

If you're not an NBA executive, you have no business saying any of those comments w/ any realistic confidence.


----------



## rebelsun

Marbury's first game will be Thursday at 7 ET on TNT. It is not only his and Penny's debut, but also the return of Van Gundy to NY. It should be entertaining to say the least.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> If you're not an NBA executive, you have no business saying any of those comments w/ any realistic confidence.


Certainly I can. You don't have to be a GM to pay attention to the history of the league and what has worked and what hasn't.

What the Suns are doing hasn't worked. Maybe they'll be the first. Good for them, if they are.

And I find it ironic that you bristle at my post after airily telling me how to operate in today's NBA (remember your post comparing me to Layden, of all people?).

I may not be a GM, but I've been right a lot more than I've been wrong in evaluating how certain things are going to work out. It doesn't matter to me a whit whether you believe me, but I'm not going to stay silent about my opinion just because you don't want to consider the possibility that the Suns may have made a mistake.

And the reason I didn't include myself in "impatient fans" was mostly because I'm not a serious fan of the Suns, so I'm not directly biased towards them.


----------



## MLKG

I'm kind of surprised at how receptive Suns fans are to this deal. I guarantee if I had suggested it to any of them yesterday they would be absolutely repulsed at the idea.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> I'm kind of surprised at how receptive Suns fans are to this deal. I guarantee if I had suggested it to any of them yesterday they would be absolutely repulsed at the idea.


*Fans* generally overvalue their own players...until the players are dealt, then what they get back, if it can be rationalized at all, was always better.

And no, I'm not saying this is true for all Suns fans defending this deal. But I'm also dead sure that if a Knicks fan had floated this deal on a Phoenix board, as a proposal, he'd have been laughed off the board.


----------



## Yyzlin

Look at it this way, Minstrel. Phoenix is a lower tier playoff team in the Western conference. With this current roster, that's all they are. They didn't have the cap space to manuever much, roster wise, so with a few additional late first rounders here and there and some few minor free agent additions and departures in the future years, they were pretty much "stuck" with a core of Stoudemire, Marion, and Marbury. You may think otherwise, but I have to agree with the others. That core is and will be a tough shot to penetrate the upper echolon of the West. So Colangelo takes a risk, while Marbury's stock is at his highest, and well, gets a rich bounty in return. It gives him the flexibility to make significant roster additions in the free agency market. They may not get Kobe, but if the opportunity presents itself, they will certainly be able to as well as any other free agent. Add that to two very promising prospects in Lampe and Vujanic and two future first round picks, and you will have a wealth of youth to build upon. The Suns already have a young PG groomed to replace Marbury. Sure, he will most likely not be an equal, but if he has able to replace a good amount of Marbury's production then the trade has more than compensated for the rest of the production with Vujanic, Lampe, and the two draft picks. Its impossible to tell until several years later, but I think this trade is great for the Suns. Then again, you may be right as well Minstrel. We won't know for a while.


----------



## Arclite

27 points, 4 assists, 3 boards, 2 steals and 1 to tonight for Barbosa, despite this being the first time he's gotten big minutes for Phoenix in his career.

That will definitely help ease the pain.. for now, at least . Looks like another late first round steal for the Suns..


----------



## Yyzlin

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Certainly I can. You don't have to be a GM to pay attention to the history of the league and what has worked and what hasn't.
> 
> What the Suns are doing hasn't worked. Maybe they'll be the first. Good for them, if they are.


Yes, it has worked before. The Orlando Magic cleared cap space before the 2000-2001 season and landed a superstar and a budding superstar in Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady. It isn't the Magic's fault they didn't forsee Hill's multiple injuries.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> 27 points, 4 assists, 3 boards, 2 steals and 1 to tonight for Barbosa, despite this being the first time he's gotten big minutes for Phoenix in his career.
> 
> That will definitely help ease the pain.. for now, at least . Looks like another late first round steal for the Suns..


Very impressive.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

You know what this trade reminds me of? When the Cowboys got the Vikings' entire draft in the early 90's for Herschel Walker. The Vikes got a solid running back that never took the team to the next level, and the Cowboys got the core of a championship dynasty. I don't know if things will work out that dramatically, but I like what the Suns did. The Colangelos certainly aren't afraid to make a move.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> *chuckle* Kind of like "if we get Duncan, and if McGrady becomes a superstar and if we draft well, we'll be a great team" or "if Curry and Chandler become Shaq and KG and if Jamal Crawford becomes a star, look out for the Bulls."
> 
> I have to say...it's amazing how many times this plays out: Team gets rid of proven talent, bottoms out, gets cap space and draft picks, fans talk about how great the team is going to be (all they need is a superstar to come via free agency, and the team is always amazingly the front-runner) and then a whole lot of nothing is the result.
> 
> Even if the Suns fail *also*, rest assured that the next team that comes up with this brilliant, new idea will be hailed as the next dynasty in the making.
> 
> It's like a willowisp...it's obviously illusion, yet people keep following it.


Orlando had a plan that nearly worked to perfection. They once had a near dynasty until Shaq left and then realized Penny himself wasnt enough to make the team more than mediocre. So they tore the team apart looking to free agency and accumulating draft picks.

If Hill had come back healthy Orlando would more than likely have made at least one Finals appearance. Had David Robinson not broken off his vacation to go convince Duncan to stay, Orlando would more than likely have had a few titles by now.

It was a great plan that nearly worked. Much like Orlando, I think a lot of players would view Phoenix as a nice warm weather destination to go to. You have to take risks to become a championship team and you need some luck. The Phoenix team as it was was never going to be more than middle of the pack in the West for quite awhile. They are taking a risk betting on getting Vujanic to the US, hoping maybe Lampe turns into something, and possibly signing Kobe. With the players that they have, if those things can happen for them then they can be a championship team.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see if it happens.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Certainly I can. You don't have to be a GM to pay attention to the history of the league and what has worked and what hasn't.
> 
> What the Suns are doing hasn't worked. Maybe they'll be the first. Good for them, if they are.
> 
> And I find it ironic that you bristle at my post after airily telling me how to operate in today's NBA (remember your post comparing me to Layden, of all people?).


You are a casual NBA fan bro. You have about as credit in predicting the impact of transaction as anyone on this board. It is not your job. What do you have to prove that your opinion is superior? 

Ok, history has dictated trading draft picks and clearing cap room has not always produced glorious results, but teams that do this have a plan. The reason the Magic did it was to attempt to lure Tim Duncan, and the Suns are going to attempt to lure Kobe (which they have decent chance at.) If they don't land Kobe, they are still under the cap to sign other free agents, have young talent, and extra picks. 

With their current situation, they were stuck. They are handicapped with their payroll, and are tumbling out of control. Fans are growing spiteful, and are losing interest. A move had to be made. Harvey and White are obviously not enough.

You want to stick w/ these guys? You want to keep Amare? If you wanted to re-sign Amare, a move on Marbury, Penny, or Marion had to be made. They decided to make the move now. They made a dent in the playoffs last year, and were so excited they extended Marbury and re-signed Voskuhl? What did that produce? The worst record in the West. 

This is a business Minstrel. I cannot believe you would keep Penny *and pay him $40 million just so you can trade an expiring contract.* Do you realize how rediculous that is? Are you really saying that is worth it?

The worst part is your unbelievable arrogance and rigidness regarding the topic. You are a Layden if you want to sit around and pay $70 mil to guards and likely not get out of the first round, if in the playoffs at all. 

*Your opinion is no more valid than anyone else.*

You're obviously not interested in winning a championship; you appear to be content limping into the playoffs. If thats what you want, then yes, this trade was bad. However, if you are interested in the well-being of the franchise, this trade was positive.


----------



## jokeaward

I thought Milwaukee would draft Barbosa with their high pick. I was only off by about 20 picks. 

He averaged like 32 PPG in Brazil! Darko averaged like 5 or 10!

It's all relative, but that's still a lot of scoring!


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, it has worked before. The Orlando Magic cleared cap space before the 2000-2001 season and landed a superstar and a budding superstar in Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady. It isn't the Magic's fault they didn't forsee Hill's multiple injuries.


There's always one reason why it didn't work somewhere. The point is, it hasn't worked. It's entirely possible that leaning on such a strategy leaves you vulnerable if anything goes wrong. You clean out all depth in the pursuit of two big pieces. One of those pieces goes down, your plans are done.


----------



## The_Franchise

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> There's always one reason why it didn't work somewhere. The point is, it hasn't worked. It's entirely possible that leaning on such a strategy leaves you vulnerable if anything goes wrong. You clean out all depth in the pursuit of two big pieces. One of those pieces goes down, your plans are done.


Not only are you right, but so is your avatar. Absolutely stunning.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> There's always one reason why it didn't work somewhere. The point is, it hasn't worked. It's entirely possible that leaning on such a strategy leaves you vulnerable if anything goes wrong. You clean out all depth in the pursuit of two big pieces. One of those pieces goes down, your plans are done.


Yes it may leave them vulnerable, but don't you see that the Suns had the foresight to see that they could see where this was going, and they stopped the bleeding. 

Was it rash? Possibly, but it is clear the Suns are after Kobe, and should they not land him, they have cap space, young talent, and extra picks. Colangelo has his sights on a championship, and I credit him for making a bold move. Only time will tell the fate of this deal. 

Bottom line, the Suns have options now, somethings they haven't had in years.


----------



## Yyzlin

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> It's entirely possible that leaning on such a strategy leaves you vulnerable if anything goes wrong. You clean out all depth in the pursuit of two big pieces. One of those pieces goes down, your plans are done.


Funny, I thought that was how the LA Lakers won three consecutive NBA Championships.


----------



## The_Franchise

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> 
> 
> Funny, I thought that was how the LA Lakers won three consecutive NBA Championships.


But Kobe and Shaq were healthy... *both* pieces.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> You are a casual NBA fan bro. You have about as credit in predicting the impact of transaction as anyone on this board. It is not your job. What do you have to prove that your opinion is superior?


I never said my opinion was superior. That's entirely in your own head.

What makes your opinion superior? Why did you tell me how you have to do things in the NBA to be successful and then get all annoyed when I told *you* how to be successful?



> Ok, history has dictated trading draft picks and clearing cap room has not always produced glorious results


No. Has not *ever* produced glorious results.



> This is a business Minstrel. I cannot believe you would keep Penny *and pay him $40 million just so you can trade an expiring contract.* Do you realize how rediculous that is? Are you really saying that is worth it?


What you don't seem to be able to understand is that Phoenix *got back just as much salary for this season*. Next season, yes, some of those contracts are gone, but next season is also when Phoenix could have *traded* Hardaway as an expiring contract for a useful player and thus gotten rid of dead weight anyway.

It's not as simplistic as you try to make it, where either you waste money or you don't. You can manage resources better such that, for the same waste, you strengthen the team more.



> The worst part is your unbelievable arrogance and rigidness regarding the topic.


Arrogance and rigidness? Would you like to play the part of the pot or the kettle? Exactly where have you been flexible? I have my opinion and you have yours. Sadly, you also have a persecution complex whereby if I don't agree with you, I'm being "arrogant." Unbelieveable.

Why are you even on a discussion board if you can't deal with disagreement?



> You're obviously not interested in winning a championship; you appear to be content limping into the playoffs.


You seem to have trouble reading for comprehension. Considering I've called Marbury/Marion/Stoudamire a "*championship* core" about a million times, yes, obviously I have no interest in winning a championship. 

Want to get back to me when you've chosen to actually read my posts rather than make things up?



> However, if you are interested in the well-being of the franchise, this trade was positive.


You see only what you want to see.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> 
> 
> Funny, I thought that was how the LA Lakers won three consecutive NBA Championships.


The Lakers didn't get rid of all their talent to land the two pieces. They had players like Van Excel and Eddie Jones and Elden Campbell that they dealt for supporting cast.

Had Kobe been injured early on, never to play again, the Lakers probably keep Eddie Jones, for example.

The Magic had no fall-back because they *gutted* their team to get McGrady and Hill.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> 
> 
> Not only are you right, but so is your avatar. Absolutely stunning.


Thanks. It's Jayne Mansfield.


----------



## Yyzlin

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> The Lakers didn't get rid of all their talent to land the two pieces. They had players like Van Excel and Eddie Jones and Elden Campbell that they dealt for supporting cast.
> 
> Had Kobe been injured early on, never to play again, the Lakers probably keep Eddie Jones, for example.
> 
> The Magic had no fall-back because they *gutted* their team to get McGrady and Hill.


Yes, but the Lakers *did* eventually gut their team to allow Kobe Byrant and Shaquille O'Neal to be the centerpieces. If either of those players were to be injured any season after the 97-98 one, they too would be in a predicament similar to the Magic. You are correct in that the Lakers had a better plan. They had a one year insurance plan in the 97-98 season. You don't realize though that the Lakers had a FAR better team to work with the Magic. The Magic had an oft injured Penny and Nick Anderson as their two best players in the 98-99 season. They traded both and many others to clear cap space and succeeded in getting both Hill and McGrady. I guess you could say Hill was a risk, being injured the year before in Detroit, but Penny was just as injury prone. There isn't a GM who wouldn't make that tradeoff. From what they had in 98-99, to what they had in 00-01, its hard to deny that the Magic worked wonders.


----------



## 1 Penny

I swear, I have both my NBA Live and ESPN Baskteball with Penny Hardaway traded to Knicks... along with LeBron James playing point.  



But Marbury??

I'm shocked and amazed on how Marbury was supposed to be the saviour one minute... then expendable the next.

But this is business afterall, we fans see it from our hearts and different perspectives... the GMs see it not as just fans but from a business standpoint and the long-term success of the team.


I sorta understand why Colangelo did it, but I also feel that it was a rushed and "panicked" decision.


But guess we suns fans will have to look forward to next season to see if this trade pays off...

Good luck for Penny and Marbury... them 2 should tear it up in the EAST... well most likely Marbury anyways... he should suit the NY crowd and life-style...

again... this is a shock... But Suns all of a sudden just looks like a Euro Team.... cant be that bad.


----------



## Chef

I like the trade a lot for the Suns. They get 2 1st round picks, and Lampe and Vujanic (who I think they won't be superstars, but veru good roleplayer)

So we have...

-Amare
-Marion
-Barbosa
-Joe Johnson
-Zarko
-2004 Suns Lottery pick (probably)
-2004 New York 1st round pick (I hope its lottery, sorry Stephon and Penny)
-Lampe
-Vujanic
-Cap space for signing a superstar...

That's a huge amount of european talent, along with 2 stars (Amare and Marion), along with Barbosa, along with more good player (the picks) and along with Kobe (I doubt he would say no, if Suns get 2 strong players in the 2004 draft)

As for the Knicks, Stephon is back home, and he will bring a lot of emotion to the NY fans... 

Great trade for the Suns. Congrats Brian


----------



## Greg Ostertag!

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> No. Has not *ever* produced glorious results.


Denver.


----------



## The OUTLAW

This is a great trade for the Knicks in the short term. However, I would definitely be concerned about what they gave up. Lampe, Vujanic and 2 1st rounders. In addition they added salary. I guess that they don't think that their will be a luxury tax in a few years.


----------



## PHXSPORTS4LIFE

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> *chuckle* Kind of like "if we get Duncan, and if McGrady becomes a superstar and if we draft well, we'll be a great team" or "if Curry and Chandler become Shaq and KG and if Jamal Crawford becomes a star, look out for the Bulls."
> 
> I have to say...it's amazing how many times this plays out: Team gets rid of proven talent, bottoms out, gets cap space and draft picks, fans talk about how great the team is going to be (all they need is a superstar to come via free agency, and the team is always amazingly the front-runner) and then a whole lot of nothing is the result.
> 
> Even if the Suns fail *also*, rest assured that the next team that comes up with this brilliant, new idea will be hailed as the next dynasty in the making.
> 
> It's like a willowisp...it's obviously illusion, yet people keep following it.


but what you're discounting is the fact that marion remains. and though he's not a superstar, he's still an all-star-type player. and amare remains, and he's a stud waiting to happen. in other words, we've only given up 1/3 of our "franchise" and get to try to rebuild (if that word is accurate) around them. we haven't really "bottomed out" in terms of talent.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> You see only what you want to see.


As do you, my friend.


----------



## PHXSPORTS4LIFE

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> *Fans* generally overvalue their own players...until the players are dealt, then what they get back, if it can be rationalized at all, was always better.
> 
> And no, I'm not saying this is true for all Suns fans defending this deal. But I'm also dead sure that if a Knicks fan had floated this deal on a Phoenix board, as a proposal, he'd have been laughed off the board.


as a suns fan i can admit that your statements here are probably right on. at first i was quite taken aback by the trade. i just really thought we weren't gonna break up the big three, but after really examining the trade and the possibilities i think it's okay. is it great? no. but i don't think we got ripped off either. 'specially after going to the ny board and seeing them crying over all that they gave up.


----------



## PHXSPORTS4LIFE

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> There's always one reason why it didn't work somewhere. The point is, it hasn't worked. It's entirely possible that leaning on such a strategy leaves you vulnerable if anything goes wrong. You clean out all depth in the pursuit of two big pieces. One of those pieces goes down, your plans are done.


you said clearing out space to land fa's doesn't work. it obviously did. and to pin your argument on hill's injury and saying "see, it doesn't work" is like my saying, if marbury gets hurt, keeping him doesn't work. that's a weak argument. you've made better throughout this thread.


----------



## PHXSPORTS4LIFE

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> The Lakers didn't get rid of all their talent to land the two pieces. They had players like Van Excel and Eddie Jones and Elden Campbell that they dealt for supporting cast.
> 
> Had Kobe been injured early on, never to play again, the Lakers probably keep Eddie Jones, for example.
> 
> The Magic had no fall-back because they *gutted* their team to get McGrady and Hill.


yes, but likewise, the suns haven't gutted their franchise either. they've still got amare and marion and jj, and now added two young prospects and draft picks. i'd take all of that over van exel, eddie jones and elden campbell.


----------



## rebelsun

Chad Ford ESPN Insider - 



In a league where things like the luxury tax, salary cap and long-term financial obligations really matter, the Knicks agreed to send roughly $16.8 million in guaranteed contracts to Phoenix while agreeing to take on *roughly $123 million in salaries from two players.* When Suns GM Bryan Colangelo calls those numbers "staggering," he's not kidding. I did a quick search through trades over the past five years and *could not find a trade even close to that $100+ million disparity.* 

That also means that the Suns are on the verge of one of the *biggest cap-clearing jobs in NBA history.* Before Monday's trade, their payroll stood at around $66 million this year and was projected to fall at around $58 million in 2004. Currently their cap number is $61 million (once they dump Charlie Ward), and in the summer of 2004 it could be as low as $36 million. Add in the cash the Knicks threw in, and the Suns netted roughly $10 million extra from the trade this season, and slashed $22 million from payroll next year.

That leaves the Suns as, in my mind at least, the best alternative to the Lakers if Kobe decides to bolt. No, the Suns won't sign him if he's still enmeshed in his legal woes. But if his name is cleared by then, I think the Colangelo's won't balk. Kobe had a spotless past before the latest incident. If he can prove he was set up, I think it's pretty safe to say that he won't be causing in more problems. 

If Kobe doesn't come to Phoenix, the other free-agent options out there aren't nearly as attractive. The Suns made this move with the idea that it would give them the flexibility to make a move or two to put them in contention for an NBA title. If they can't land a player of Kobe's caliber, however, I'm not sure that a core of Amare Stoudemire and Shawn Marion and a number of nice role players will be enough to get them there anytime soon. 


"It was really a fantasy trade for us," Colangelo said. "Losing Stephon is hard and means will likely take a step back this year, but when you look at the numbers and the financial flexability the trade really gave us, it was staggering. *Combine that with all of the young prospects we received and it was a once in a lifetime deal. I honestly believe that our future is now brighter than it has ever been.

*ESPN Insider


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> In a league where things like the luxury tax, salary cap and long-term financial obligations really matter, the Knicks agreed to send roughly $16.8 million in guaranteed contracts to Phoenix while agreeing to take on *roughly $123 million in salaries from two players.* When Suns GM Bryan Colangelo calls those numbers "staggering," he's not kidding. I did a quick search through trades over the past five years and *could not find a trade even close to that $100+ million disparity.*


Minstrel - This was a bad business move?


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Greg Ostertag!</b>!
> 
> Denver.


Denver has hardly had *glorious* results. In fact, there are doubts as to whether they will even remain in the playoff picture by some.

But yes, there's certainly a chance that Denver, after the last few years of being terrible, will be around where the Suns were last year. A good team in the lower bracket of the playoffs.

If that's "glorious results," fine. But until they win a title or get close, they don't count for me.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>PHXSPORTS4LIFE</b>!
> 
> 
> yes, but likewise, the suns haven't gutted their franchise either.  they've still got amare and marion and jj, and now added two young prospects and draft picks. i'd take all of that over van exel, eddie jones and elden campbell.


The Lakers didn't trade away a franchise player to open up room for the one player they went after in free agency. They primarily traded Divac (and even that was to get Kobe Bryant, who Jerry West was sold on) in order to get the room.

Divac was a good player, but hardly a franchise superstar.

LA didn't follow the model of getting rid of talent in order to bottom out, get great picks and plenty of cap space. They made basically *one* surgical strike where they dealt a non-franchise player for a potentially much better player (Kobe Bryant) and, *at the same time* opened up cap space for O'Neal.

We could argue for days on whether what LA did was the same or not. In my opinion, the spirit of LA's move was not the same. Colangelo himself said it wasn't value-for-value. I think West believed Kobe was equal or better value for Divac.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> As do you, my friend.


How so? If anything, I like the Suns. I certainly have no affection for the Knicks. So how is seeing this as a bad deal for the Suns, "seeing what I want to see"?

Further, you never did address how *I* was being "rigid" and "arrogant" while you were the sole of flexibility and humbleness.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>PHXSPORTS4LIFE</b>!
> 
> 
> as a suns fan i can admit that your statements here are probably right on. at first i was quite taken aback by the trade. i just really thought we weren't gonna break up the big three, but after really examining the trade and the possibilities i think it's okay. is it great? no. but i don't think we got ripped off either. 'specially after going to the ny board and seeing them crying over all that they gave up.


My take on the trade, summed up:

It was a hasty and poor decision to deal a superstar point guard based on one-third of a season gone wrong. *Considering that they made that decision*, the Suns did all right in extracting a nice parcel of prospects from the Knicks. That doesn't mean I think the original decision was correct, but it also means I don't think the Suns were killed, or anything. I think they went from a better situation to a much more risky one.

So maybe we aren't *that* far apart in opinion on the deal.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Don't try to lecture me on what has proven to not work in the league.


I'm sorry, I forgot that you are an NBA GM and have successfully built champioship teams. And I never "lectured" you. That is arrogance, sir. You are basically saying "I know what works in this league and you do not, so don't believe you know whats right."



> Fans naturally have little patience. One bad stretch and it's clear that core is worthless.


The Suns would be strapped finacially for a long time if a move wasn't made. They committed a lot of money to that core, and it produced a last place team so far. It is a miracle they were able to move Penny's contract. 

Oh, and are you not a fan of the NBA? Would you rather call yourself a casual observer? Give me a break pal. Are you saying you above being a fan?


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> Minstrel - This was a bad business move?


I never said it was a "bad" business move. I said it wasn't such a gain on the business end of things that it was worth making the deal.

First of all, those numbers are misleading. Much of that is Stephon Marbury. *A.* he earns his money, he's not some overpaid mediocrity and *B.* he earns so much due to a contract extension the *Suns* just gave him. So, in some respect, the Suns could only make this "good business move" due to their own "bad business move."

So that leaves the rest of the money in Hardaway's hands. The Suns will pay as much as they would have paid Hardaway *this year*, since salaries have to match in a trade.

Next year is where they stand to save a huge amount on Penny's salary...except next season is also when they could have *traded* him as a valuable expiring contract, removing much of the dead weight, by getting some useful stuff back in return.

To me, that would have been a much better move, both from a business standpoint *and* a team strength standpoint. You'd still have what I consider a championship core when/if Stoudemire becomes elite and you'd have some other good player(s) picked up in the Hardaway dump.

Heck...the Knicks got Marbury by being willing to dump expiring contracts. The Suns could have gotten something decent for an expiring Hardaway.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> I think they went from a better situation to a much more risky one.


Welcome to professional sports! If you have a chance to get a top 5 player in the league, you take it. They will still be in great shape for the future should they not land Kobe.

It hurts to lose Marbury, but make no mistake, the economics of this deal make it completely worth it.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> So that leaves the rest of the money in Hardaway's hands. The Suns will pay as much as they would have paid Hardaway *this year*, since salaries have to match in a trade.


Yes, but they saved probably $80mil through the course of their contracts!



> Next year is where they stand to save a huge amount on Penny's salary...except next season is also when they could have *traded* him as a valuable expiring contract, removing much of the dead weight, by getting some useful stuff back in return.


That is with the assumption that you keep Penny and limp along while losing games. 



> To me, that would have been a much better move, both from a business standpoint *and* a team strength standpoint. You'd still have what I consider a championship core when/if Stoudemire becomes elite and you'd have some other good player(s) picked up in the Hardaway dump.


Who is going to pay $12mil for a 36 y/o broken Penny? Nobody wants or has ever wanted a piece of Penny's contract until now. He is a anchor to the team right now. The Suns are not going to pass up an opportunity to trade him now (with multiple years no less) to keep him for the specific purpose of trading him in his expiring year. 



> Heck...the Knicks got Marbury by being willing to dump expiring contracts. The Suns could have gotten something decent for an expiring Hardaway.


The Knicks also gave up 2 very good young players and 2 1st round picks. They basically have to win with who they have now. They were in terrible cap shape before. Now they are in the 7th circle of fiscal hell.


----------



## Minstrel

I've already addressed *both* these points. But since you've chosen to ignore that, I'll address them again.



> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> I'm sorry, I forgot that you are an NBA GM and have successfully built champioship teams. And I never "lectured" you. That is arrogance, sir.


Of course you lectured me. Here's your blurb telling me what doesn't work in the NBA (and comparing me to a disgraced GM in the process):



> No offense bro, but I would not want you as my GM. You want to coast along like Layden? Not in this league; not if you want to win. Not if you want to keep your fans.


All those "not"s sure strike me as a lecture of what *not* to do.

I did the same thing to you (without the potshot of calling you "Layden") and you called me "arrogant." Don't be so hypocritical.

I don't at all have a problem with taking risks for a championship. My point was that the Suns *already had a championship core* once Stoudemire developed more. It's foolish to trade away the biggest part of what could already be a championship core.

You keep failing to understand that, thinking I "just want to make the playoffs" or something ridiculous like that.



> Oh, and are you not a fan of the NBA? Would you rather call yourself a casual observer? Give me a break pal. Are you saying you above being a fan?


No, and I already told you what I meant when I said "Fans are impatient, etc." *I* am not a serious fan of the *Suns* (I'm a bit of a well-wisher because a friend of mine is a Suns fan and I enjoyed watching them play). Therefore, I am not impatient when it comes to them. I'm much more objective about them than a Suns fan or a Suns-hater.

I *am* a fan of the Blazers. Maybe I'm impatient when it comes to them. Who knows.

So, no, I'm not above being a fan. But it matters *who* you're a fan of.

So, are you going to again ignore my explanations and continue calling me arrogant? If so, I'll just have to assume you're intentionally being baiting, and therefore not capable of civil conversation, since I've clearly explained my comments and they have nothing to do with being "better than you."


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> Welcome to professional sports! If you have a chance to get a top 5 player in the league, you take it.


Probability has to be weighed in, also. The Jazz also "have a chance at a top-five player" as do the Clippers. Chances of them getting Bryant? Tiny to nill.

Chances of the Suns getting him are only slightly higher, due to the economics, due to team qualities, due to the markets. The Lakers can offer him the most, the Lakers are in the more glamorous and watched market and the Lakers are the better team.

Plus, Kobe knows that he will definitely be around a lot longer than Shaq, so the Lakers *will* be unquestionably his team at some point.

The chances that Kobe, based on all of that, will choose to leave LA are pretty miniscule.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Probability has to be weighed in, also. The Jazz also "have a chance at a top-five player" as do the Clippers. Chances of them getting Bryant? Tiny to nill.
> 
> Chances of the Suns getting him are only slightly higher, due to the economics, due to team qualities, due to the markets. The Lakers can offer him the most, the Lakers are in the more glamorous and watched market and the Lakers are the better team.
> 
> Plus, Kobe knows that he will definitely be around a lot longer than Shaq, so the Lakers *will* be unquestionably his team at some point.
> 
> The chances that Kobe, based on all of that, will choose to leave LA are pretty miniscule.



Let's be realistic. Do you think Kobe will move to Utah? He's definitely not going to Colorado. It basically leaves the Lakers, Clippers, and Suns at this point.

Phoenix is a very eligible place to land Kobe. They have the cap room, they have the best young talent to surround him with, he has ties to the PHX coach, the weather and atmosphere is much like L.A. The Suns have a legit shot at getting him. It is definitely not a sure thing, but it is worth the shot to acquire a top 5 player.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> That is with the assumption that you keep Penny and limp along while losing games.


That's no different than keeping McDyess and Eisley and limping along while losing games. *This season* the Suns aren't saving anything. In fact, they're paying the same amount as before for *less* production with no Marbury.

So, stop using the fact that Penny would be unproductive for a high cost this season. McDyess nicely fills that role for this season.



> Who is going to pay $12mil for a 36 y/o broken Penny?


Someone who wants to clear $12 million from their cap.



> They were in terrible cap shape before. Now they are in the 7th circle of fiscal hell.


Hardly. Marbury is worth his scratch. Hardaway expires season after this one. If Hardaway's contract went on for years and years, I'd agree with you. They were going to be over the cap with or without Hardaway. Waiting a little under two seasons for Hardaway's contract to be gone is worth getting a superstar with plenty of top years left.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Hardly. Marbury is worth his scratch. Hardaway expires season after this one. If Hardaway's contract went on for years and years, I'd agree with you. They were going to be over the cap with or without Hardaway. Waiting a little under two seasons for Hardaway's contract to be gone is worth getting a superstar with plenty of top years left.



The Knicks are not in a bad cap situation, is that what you are saying?

Minstrel, bottom line, do you still believe this trade was bad for PHX?


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> Let's be realistic. Do you think Kobe will move to Utah?


If you read my post, I said Utah and the Clippers have basically no chance. And Phoenix has only slightly better than no chance.



> Phoenix is a very eligible place to land Kobe. They have the cap room, they have the best young talent to surround him with, he has ties to the PHX coach, the weather and atmosphere is much like L.A. The Suns have a legit shot at getting him.


Weather is no issue. LA has equally nice weather, great beaches, etc. LA can also offer him *more money than the Suns* (as per the CBA and the 15% salary increases), LA has a *championship-caliber team* (while Phoenix is a rebuilding project) and LA is in a *much better market* (which matters for visibility, commercials, etc).

If you think knowing the coach from long ago is going to overturn those enormous factors, fine by me.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> If you think knowing the coach from long ago is going to overturn those enormous factors, fine by me.


Superstars aren't always the most stable personalities. After the trial, he may want to leave LA. Who knows?


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> The Knicks are not in a bad cap situation, is that what you are saying?


No. Here's a tip: I'll *say* what I'm saying. I never said the Knicks are not in a bad cap situation. What I said was that their cap situation was only worsened by this deal for a couple of seasons. That's worth it to get Marbury, especially when you consider the Knicks would be over the cap even without Hardaway.

If you're over the cap, you're over the cap. You have little flexibility to sign free agents whether you're $1 over the cap or $100 million over the cap. The Knicks shot their cap figure higher for two seasons. In return, they got a superstar that they'd have been hard-pressed to get in free agency.

Until they can get Houston off their books, the Knicks are screwed anyway. From a *team strength* standpoint, they really suffer no loss having a higher and higher cap figure until Houston is gone. It's more expensive for the owner, certainly but it doesn't hurt the team on the floor.

Now, when Houston comes off the books, they'd better not *then* be committed to long-term bad deals. If they are, they're toast.



> Minstrel, bottom line, do you still believe this trade was bad for PHX?


Just one page ago I said this:



> My take on the trade, summed up:
> 
> It was a hasty and poor decision to deal a superstar point guard based on one-third of a season gone wrong. Considering that they made that decision, the Suns did all right in extracting a nice parcel of prospects from the Knicks. That doesn't mean I think the original decision was correct, but it also means I don't think the Suns were killed, or anything. I think they went from a better situation to a much more risky one.


That's, bottom line, what I believe. Not a good deal for Phoenix, but not disastrous.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> Superstars aren't always the most stable personalities. After the trial, he may want to leave LA. Who knows?


Fair enough. I wouldn't want to stake things on, "Maybe he's unstable." But if that's a good enough chance for you, fine.


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> That's, bottom line, what I believe. Not a good deal for Phoenix, but not disastrous.


OK, why don't we just agree to disagree on this one. I apologize if the tone turned hostile, but I liked the trade so much I just wanted to get your reasoning. No harm no foul


----------



## Amareca

Look there are several indications as to why Kobe could chose to go to Phoenix

1. His connection to Mike D'antoni

2. Him and Amare show great respect to each other

3. He was almost drafted to Phoenix. His parents already agreed on details with Colangelo or something like that.

4. Colangelo has been as high on Kobe as he has been on anyone.

5. Kobe might want to leave Shaq behind him and all that trouble with him.

6. Kobe might want to leave the media jungle of LA after all of this.

7. Phoenix is a young team with as much talent as anyone.


If Kobe would go to Phoenix the media would have their next Jordan/Pippen thing going immediately just that they have Amare to throw in.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> OK, why don't we just agree to disagree on this one. I apologize if the tone turned hostile, but I liked the trade so much I just wanted to get your reasoning. No harm no foul


Good enough. Good discussing it with you, in general. I hope it works out as you hope.


----------



## jokeaward

Maybe you can rip me to shreds, but it seems like the Orlando gutting worked. No, Shaq anymore, just Penny and Anderson? Go ahead and gut it, then woo FAs like Hill and T-Mac. It's not the GM's job to keep Hill from getting injured. He certainly didn't look like he'd crash and burn due to injury. At least one of the FAs worked, and Orlando improved and was more exciting than some remnant team from the early to mid 90's.

Denver's had pretty great results, especially with Camby as their highest paid player. $38 M payroll, a young star, and a winning team. If they plummet to earth and tragically (  ) get Okafor or someone to go with Carmelo, they'd still be under the cap, not even considering expiring contracts. The team's already young and winning, so they'd be decent if the payroll was $55 M.

But I can see what you're saying. Don't just start dumping good players for some pot of gold. But sometimes teams just get bad, pick high, and get new stars.


----------



## PhatDaddy3100

Minstrel, Pennys contract lasts two more years after this, while mcdyess ends after this year. And after next year, we are going to have to give Stoudemire a contract extension. So that would be 4 players with a max contract and payroll around 80 million. teh Colangelos can not afford 80 million dollars a year. The suns dont get that much publicity or anything like that. Also, The suns havent had a bad draft in the past 8 years. If it was any other team, i would be worrying. But with the Colangelos and their history, you have to believe them and just sit back a wait.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>jokeaward</b>!
> 
> Denver's had pretty great results


Denver, after several years of horrific records, has rebounded. You have to ask whether all teams are bound to rebound sometime and is this a clear success for the strategy or just random variance (some teams are just bound to succeed due to luck)?

Because, honestly, not even Vandeweghe, as far as I've seen quotes from him, expected this. The Nuggets are getting bumps upward from players that were fill-ins, not targeted free agents for the rennaissance. Players like Boykins, Lenard and Andersen are all happy surprises, not the result of major free agent strikes due to cap room...all three players (except Andersen due to not being a free agent) could have been picked up by capped-out teams with exceptions.

We'll see how Denver does. Carmelo Anthony, Nene, Andre Miller are all rewards of the "strategy." If they form a championship-contender core, then I'll agree Denver represents one success for the strategy.

As far as Orlando goes, remember that the point of this strategy is to bottom out such that you can build a champion, a power...not just a playoff team (there are more playoff teams than not, so that's hardly amazing success). *Even if* Grant Hill had not been injured, do you see Hill and McGrady winning a title with no big man of *any* note? I don't. I see them being a good Eastern team, a perennial playoff team...but *Tim Duncan* was supposed to be the championship payoff of the strategy and they failed to get him. Ever since then, they've failed to put good players, or even one good big man, around McGrady. So they likewise would have failed to do it around McGrady and Hill (in fact, they would have had even worse draft picks to blow).

That's my perspective.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>PhatDaddy3100</b>!
> Minstrel, Pennys contract lasts two more years after this


Two more? I see, I thought it was one more after this season. In that case, it's a better trade. It still weakens the team, in my opinion, but it's a stronger business decision for the Colangelo's pocketbook.


----------



## PhatDaddy3100

Yeah, Penny has an opt out after next year, ,but when your making 13 million $ a year and not performing that well, why would you?


----------



## Amareca

Penny won't opt out he already stated that several times.


----------



## Amareca

Funny funny...

The Suns look much better despite the losses after the trade and the Knicks are absolutely getting PUNKED tonight.

Maybe there is some truth to Marbury not being able to help the teams game with all his talent and stats.


----------



## Big John

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> Funny funny...
> 
> The Suns look much better despite the losses after the trade and the Knicks are absolutely getting PUNKED tonight.


Yes indeed lol. The Garden crowd is chanting "Fire Cheney." I wonder when they will start chanting "Fire Isiah."

The Knicks' perimiter defense is just horrible. If you give Francis, Mobley and Jim Jackson one uncontested 3 after another, you aren't going to win. The Knicks have no low post offense either.

Marbury looks terrible, quite frankly. Maybe he's still suffering from jet lag.


----------

