# I'm Sorry, But...



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

We are not championship contenders right now. And we won't be until we learn how to play just an OUNCE of defense.


----------



## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

Basel57 said:


> We are not championship contenders right now. And we won't be until we learn how to play just an OUNCE of defense.


Sadly, I don't think we'll get any better until Bynum comes back. He covered up alot of our flaws. PGs can penetrate at will against us. Bynum's presence kept many players from driving to the hoop. Additionally, he was a good defender against big men, something Gasol is not. Until he comes back, we'll be a sieve against any team with a quality PG and big men that can score in the paint.


----------



## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Basel57 said:


> We are not championship contenders right now. And we won't be until we learn how to play just an OUNCE of defense.


Is this some more classic Basel pessimism? :raised_ey

I agree that we've got some issues to sort out. Fact is, Bynum is a big key to our defense. Hopefully he can get back and help.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

madskillz1_99 said:


> Is this some more classic Basel pessimism? :raised_ey
> 
> I agree that we've got some issues to sort out. Fact is, Bynum is a big key to our defense. Hopefully he can get back and help.


It's not pessimism. It's the fact that we are not Championship-caliber right now, and everyone needs to see it. I'm done getting my hopes up until I see Bynum back on the court, and making an impact.


----------



## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Basel57 said:


> It's not pessimism. It's the fact that we are not Championship-caliber right now, and everyone needs to see it. I'm done getting my hopes up until I see Bynum back on the court, and making an impact.


What team IS championship calibre then? We laid an egg tonight. It's unfortunate, but it happens.


----------



## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

unfortunately, i think it has to do more with the blazers than laying an egg
this is great i just lost 200 ****ing dollars


----------



## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

madskillz1_99 said:


> What team IS championship calibre then? We laid an egg tonight. It's unfortunate, but it happens.


It's been happening way too often.


----------



## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

I though LA used to play decent defense the past few years, what happened?


----------



## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Cris said:


> It's been happening way too often.


I agree. But even PJ has diagnosed it as a common ailment. The "good" news is that we are losing to non-playoff teams. Of course, I'd still like to see them realize that every game is huge, and it sucks that we wasted a New Orleans loss tonight, but I think we are still right there as a contender in the West.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

No loss is "good" news.


----------



## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Basel57 said:


> No loss is "good" news.


Hence the quotation marks. But surely you realize that this loss doesn't mean as much as a loss to the Spurs or Hornets or Suns. Do you really think the Blazers are a better team? No? Would they have any chance of winning a 7 game series? No. It's just a letdown, and a freak thing that apparently happens whenever we play in Portland. 

I thought you learned your lesson last time you threw a hissy fit!? Just calm down and let it go. Chances are we'll blow out the Hornets on Friday night. Although we may struggle against the Clips on Thursday...


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

lets relax guys! Honestly i think our defensive woes will improve tremendously when Bynum gets back. Just be patient fellas...


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

madskillz1_99 said:


> What team IS championship calibre then? We laid an egg tonight. It's unfortunate, but it happens.


Its been the same story, as dynamic as Gasol makes the offense, he stinks on defense. And when your inside stinks on D, you're in for a long night when your perimeter doesn't feel like playing defense. 

Until Bynum gets back, this team will just be like the old Mavs or Kings team that were just not good enough defensively to beat more balanced teams in the playoffs.


----------



## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

I got home and before I checked the forums I went and looked at the box score.. The second I saw the 20 points + for all the starters, and the high shooting percentage I knew we went into the game with no heart.

Honestly, defense can only be taught so much. It comes down to wanting to be the person who makes the stops. And lot of times this team is just waiting for whoever gets to take the next three pointer. 

Defense wins championships, just ask the Spurs... I believe a lot of the holes will be filled when Bynum gets back.. But honestly our back court needs to step up more. Kobes not playing the defense he started the year with. Neither is Fisher..

I'm not saying Fisher was a great defender ever, but this season he was decent up until the all star break. Now we just look lazy. 

Hopefully we get it together, or it's going to be a long off season.


----------



## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

Yeah our defense is a big concern right now, and Kobe is playing a major factor in it. He needs to stop his one man zone defense, and not allow his man to get wide open shots. He just coasts in the middle of nowhere usually and wonders off.


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

To me the game is not a cause of concern for LA. Its bad loss, sure, but its the Blazers at the Rose Garden where we lost 6 straight. For now, lets thank god Portland is not in the playoff race.



Some more huge games coming up this week. In retrospect, Lakers always plays well against top tiered teams, so im still pretty confident that we have what it takes to beat any teams in the West. I would like to see how they make adjustments to beat the Spurs and Hornets. If we bag two wins agains them, everything will be fine.


Boston scares me though. If we reach the Finals, I think we'll lose in 6.


----------



## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

KDOS said:


> To me the game is not a cause of concern for LA. Its bad loss, sure, but its the Blazers at the Rose Garden where we lost 6 straight. For now, lets thank god Portland is not in the playoff race.


Correct. And Kobe agrees with us too: 

"I don't think this game is that detrimental. In the playoffs, you're going to be playing against top teams anyway, so it doesn't really matter," Bryant said. "We just don't like losing."


----------



## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

i think i said this about 2 months ago, and it wasn't too well received.

it's funny how we don't play good defense and yet win games... and no one says anything.

but then we start losing, and everyone's like "omg our defense sux"


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

The fact of the matter is, you will be hard pressed to find a great defensive team with the new rules if they don't have a defensive anchor down low. It is virtually impossible to deny penetration, and our bigs are hardly defensive stalwarts. What really bothers me is that the energy level of the team has progressively went down as the season advances for the past multiple seasons. I understand that injuries play a role in that, but I see this with nearly everybody. Lacking in vitality during the stretch run is not a characteristic of Phil Jackson led teams. What's the deal?


----------



## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

I don't really understand. I mean, I never played organized basketball, so I'm I don't know too much about the phrases and expressions regarding defense, but I feel like they're capable of playing solid (not great, Detroit, Boston, San Antonio-like, mind you) D ... I think that most recently that was seen in the Portland game last week (only 15 or something points allowed in the 3rd, 42 total in the 2nd half after a 50 point 1st half), they had good 2nd half D against Dallas, after 27 points in the 1st against Sacto, they allowed a total of 67 in the next 3. It's just that they seem lost out there a lot of the time and some look disinterested in playing D. When they come out strong, and they get a few stops, they usually tighten up and play better D (this especially happens after Time outs and quarter breaks; I'm guessing Phil gives them hell). The problem is they start games off very sloppy too often and get down by double digits. Then all of the effort is on the offensive end to cut down the lead and so back and forth. I really don't know what to think anymore at this point. Okay, we have 2 of our top3 defenders still out and it also hurts that the guy who could offer a lot on D can't do **** on offense (Newble), but still, I'd expect them to figure it out by now, especially with the way Phil and other constantly bash their defensive effort. It's not like we're the friggin Warriors who never seem to keep their opponents under the century mark. I for one believe that defense can be taught, if only players have the will. Unfortunately for us it seems quite some lack the defensive mindset. 

All in all, this is very puzzling to me, especially because they've shown that they can play solid D. Honestly, I don't know how much Bynum can help this year, considering he'll probably be rusty and not too keen on contesting every shot because of his knee and I also fear that they can't transform into a great defensive team with the playoffs 10 days away... this should be the number one priority for next year. Defense, defense and once again defense. I love how Odom's played the past 2 and a half months, but I probably wouldn't be opposed to trading him + filler for a Gerald Wallace type of player. We have all the offense in the world right now and I don't want them to end like the Suns, who haven't won jack since Nash&D'Antoni's run and gun.

Meh.


----------



## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Plastic Man said:


> I don't really understand. I mean, I never played organized basketball, so I'm I don't know too much about the phrases and expressions regarding defense, but I feel like they're capable of playing solid (not great, Detroit, Boston, San Antonio-like, mind you) D ... I think that most recently that was seen in the Portland game last week (only 15 or something points allowed in the 3rd, 42 total in the 2nd half after a 50 point 1st half), they had good 2nd half D against Dallas, after 27 points in the 1st against Sacto, they allowed a total of 67 in the next 3. It's just that they seem lost out there a lot of the time and some look disinterested in playing D. When they come out strong, and they get a few stops, they usually tighten up and play better D (this especially happens after Time outs and quarter breaks; I'm guessing Phil gives them hell). The problem is they start games off very sloppy too often and get down by double digits. Then all of the effort is on the offensive end to cut down the lead and so back and forth. I really don't know what to think anymore at this point. Okay, we have 2 of our top3 defenders still out and it also hurts that the guy who could offer a lot on D can't do **** on offense (Newble), but still, I'd expect them to figure it out by now, especially with the way Phil and other constantly bash their defensive effort. It's not like we're the friggin Warriors who never seem to keep their opponents under the century mark. I for one believe that defense can be taught, if only players have the will. Unfortunately for us it seems quite some lack the defensive mindset.
> 
> All in all, this is very puzzling to me, especially because they've shown that they can play solid D. Honestly, I don't know how much Bynum can help this year, considering he'll probably be rusty and not too keen on contesting every shot because of his knee and I also fear that they can't transform into a great defensive team with the playoffs 10 days away... this should be the number one priority for next year. Defense, defense and once again defense. I love how Odom's played the past 2 and a half months, but I probably wouldn't be opposed to trading him + filler for a Gerald Wallace type of player. We have all the offense in the world right now and I don't want them to end like the Suns, who haven't won jack since Nash&D'Antoni's run and gun.
> 
> Meh.


Our starting players all have Defensive problems/habits that will probably never change.

*Fisher* always gambles but now he is a slow gambler with his foot injury and has become a severe liability on the floor. 

*Kobe* gambles alot because as far as he is concern, he is good at it and every steal is available. he also plays a one-on-one zone that causes guard penetration putting a lot on the helpers. 

*Odom* always has his eyes on the paint even when he is guarding a perimeter shooter. He rotates to the paint even if there's already a helper there that rotated. 

*Gasol* is constantly out muscled on rebounds and can't guard any Big one-on-one. He also likes to play zone during pick and roll screens, which he is very bad at doing so and it gives the impression of him not playing with effort when the roll man keeps catching the ball in positions to score. 

*Vlade* can guard one-on-one with most Bigs and deny penetration with most guards. He can rotate well to the paint and to the perimeter. He is also a reliable blockeer. So what's his problem? He takes games off. Some games he is one of their best defenders and other games he is completely disinterested and unaware. Vlade may have a problem like the Clippers center did with ADD a may need to get it checked out.

It's a shame that right now Sasha is our best defender - his only problem is that he gets too close to the defender sometimes and gets called for fouls.


----------



## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

Thanks, that's a very interesting summation. Some of the stuff has flown by me, I must admit it. Usually I'm just satisfied with saying:"Man, does our D suck." when we get some easy baskets and one of those +30 point quarters, instead of looking at the problems and putting more thought to it.

I do appreciate good defense, since the game here is much more based on it (and flopping yeah, before someone brings that up ) than offense, so I really hope they manage to get better at this part of the game. Or at least try to look like they're trying more often...

Perhaps bringing in a defensive minded assistant coach like Thibodeau (though I don't know how signing staff works and if anyone similar is available) for example would help during the off season? 

I mean who wouldn't want to read stuff like this about the Lakers and their coaching staff:"Thibodeau, who came to the team from the Houston Rockets, is known throughout the NBA as one of its finest defensive coaches. Thibodeau had helped the Rockets rank among the top five in the NBA in scoring defense and field goal percentage defense in each of the past four campaigns. In his now 17 NBA seasons, Thibodeau has helped his team finish in the NBA's Top 10 in team defense 14 times."?


----------



## Silk D (Feb 6, 2006)

Can always count on one of these threads after a bad loss. Lol, bi-polar laker fans.

I don't know what it is about the Rose Garden that makes us play so poorly. More importantly, I don't know what it is about the Lakers that makes the Blazers play out of their minds. My goodness, I think I saw them miss maybe one open look. Why they can't focus like that against other teams is beyond me. 

Don't expect our D to get any better w/o Ariza and Andrew. Pau is downright terrible on D, and that's the main reason I was against trading Andrew for him last year.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Basel57 said:


> We are not championship contenders right now. And we won't be until we learn how to play just an OUNCE of defense.


Who said we were?

The best starting unit for the lakers appears to be Fisher/*Kobe*/Odom/*Pau/Bynum *(anything less shouldn't be considered "championship contenders"). They haven't played a game together yet. And EVEN if Bynum returns in time for the playoffs, will he and Pau be able to adjust on the fly? And would Odom?

Post play is of major importance in the playoffs. BOTH sides of the ball. Right now, the Lakers have capable offensive players in Odom and Gasol. But neither plays above-average defense (to say the least).

IMHO, and with the Lakers roster as it is, i would say an healthy Fisher/Kobe/Ariza/Gasol/Bynum starting five would give us the best chance to compete. that won't happen this year.


----------



## KoBeUrself (Mar 28, 2008)

until bynum gets back, our defense is going to hinge on the number of boards and the presence that odom establishes. he's played extremely well lately, but last night he was no where to be found

i love pau, but he is known for his offense, not his defense
having a consistent big man inside to control the paint and effectively corral rebounds will put the lakers back into championship contention

i think we are in the discussion b/c of kobe/gasol, but until we get bynum back we won't be considered one of the top 3/4 teams, namely boston, detroit, new orleans, and san antonio


----------



## ceejaynj (Oct 9, 2005)

I think we can go deep in the playoffs...but no cigar this year. Our defense does need work...no doubt about that. I just think the overwhelming injuries this season might be too much to overcome. By the time we are healthy again, it might just be too late. It was written that we have had only THREE games this year with a healthy roster...THREE!!! Plus...we have key players not "injured"...but are playing hurt. I think that Kobe's shot has definitly suffered because of his finger injury, Fish has not been the same with his ankle (?) injury, Luke with various injuries all year, Chris Mihm still out, and so on. We have had to make daily adjustments and sign scrubs to 10-day contracts just because of the injuries. Plus, over the last two dozen games...we have played with no heart many times, or with the "flip the switch only when necessary" attitude. IMO, recent losses to teams like Sacramento, Atlanta, Charlotte and Memphis are a concern this late in the season. We have to bring it mentally as well as physically. Our bench should be beating these teams!!! However, next season will be a different story!!!


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

^^^ We never lost to Toronto.


----------



## ceejaynj (Oct 9, 2005)

Basel57 said:


> ^^^ We never lost to Toronto.


Woops...I meant Sacramento!


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Plus two Lakers' who has a penchant for defense are out (Ariza,Bynum) I swear when both were healthy, the Lakers I must say are just scary defensively. Bynum is such a force down low and Ariza,Kobe and Vujacic can give oppsong perimeter players nightmares.


Again, Portland lost was no biggie. We have been losing there at a disturbing rate even when we we're a championship team, I mean Frye and Aldridge we're killing us beyond the arc, how unusual is that? for a slight comparisons sake, the Celtics as good as they are seems to have their own kryptonite when playing the Wizards or the Bobcats, even the Timberwolves gives them fits, so from an optimistic point of view, losing from much inferior teams are sometimes a part of the game. 



Pau Gasol,Derek Fisher have no clue how to apply suffocating defense, Kobe is too much of a gambler, Luke,Radmanovic are no studs either on the defensive end, Farmar? same story, most of these guys have no consistent intensity when it comes to stopping their man, at least Odom bothers someone from time to time with his length but he's too dense to get a grasp of how to execute a simple yet effective D. About the only players who does gets A+ for effort are Vujacic and Ronny Turiaf and uhm DJ, but Mbenga fouls at a rate of 1 per minute, so better luck next time. 




So you see it is sad and there's no way of curing this in a short span because realistically the players we have desires offense more than the other end. We can win the West, as long as we get AB back, Ariza would help a bit too, but Im not sure when we face the Celtics because our rotations defensively sucks, and they have a lot of perimeter players who can dissect our defensive plan.


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Silk D said:


> Can always count on one of these threads after a bad loss. Lol, bi-polar laker fans.


I agree, have to say though for the most part everyone is guilty of this from time to time. I know i was when we lost to the Cats and Grizz back to back. I swear, i wanna line up all of them, starting from the top (Phil) all the way to the bottom of the food chain (not sure if its Luke or Coby at this point) and slap the living **** out of them.


----------



## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

Nevermind. Delete please.


----------



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

to me this was apparent when the lakers got pau, they were beating teams with scoes like 115-110. bynum will definitely help them down low, but the issue isn't really that either. it is one of intensity. the lakers weren't playing any d at all against these blazers and still were only down three with one minute to go. I've also seen similar lethargy against the Kings.

why expend more effort than needed against mediocre teams, this close to the playoffs?


----------



## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

blaming our lack of defense on the fact that we don't have a shotblocker downlow is just wrong. even without a defensive anchor, a good defensive team would still be decent (look at the spurs). andrew will help the team quite a bit, but it doesn't change the fact that we show a lack of energy in marking defensive rotations.. or good communication.

we just get beaten on pick and rolls way too often due to laxed defense and poor communication.


----------



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

people seem to think bynum will be some sort of panacea defensively. the game doesn't work like that, especially with him having to recover his timing.


----------

