# I Don't Care How Homer This Sounds, I Believe It



## Onions Baby (Mar 12, 2007)

*List doesn't include combo guards such as AI, Gordon, Barbosa, etc;

*Top PGs In The League:*
1-4. Nash, Kidd, Gilbert, Tony Parker (no order)
5. Jose Calderon
6-12. Deron, CP3, Billups, Baron, Bibby, TJ, Hinrich (no order)

Don't judge the list as much as where Jose Calderon ranks on it. I know this may shock some people when they look at it, and they might just call it a biased ranking, but I believe that Jose should be considered an elite point guard in the league, because IMHO he is.

Games where Jose Calderon has played +35 MPG (6-Game Average) --

15.5 PPG
10.0 APG
1.3 SPG
2.2 TOPG
4.5 A/T Ratio (4.5 Would Be #1 In The League)
19-24 FT (79.1%)
35-58 FG (60.3%)
4-7 3PT-FG (57.1%)

He performs when given the opportunity. I know everybody here fell in love with him when he took over for TJ - little to no mistakes, played flawlessly at point.

Call me a homer, but I believe it.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait... hold it. Is that actually reading that Calderon is better then Deron Williams, CP3, and Baron Davis?


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Damn, I gotta agree with Jizzy on this one. You're out to lunch.


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

He must be #4, if he's worth either Josh Smith and the 11th pick, or Josh Childress and the 3rd pick.


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## icehawk (May 30, 2003)

*Re: Jose Calderon Is The 5th Best PG In The League*

You're basing this off SIX games.

Raptor homerism at its finest.


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## undefined_playa (Oct 23, 2005)

more playing time and another solid year or 2 could justify this post...but one good year and assumptions just don't do it for me


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## Onions Baby (Mar 12, 2007)

I'll re-make this thread at the end of this year, from his 08 stats. More of the same will come of this.


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## BaLLiStiX17 (Mar 27, 2005)

Too much dude

Also, Arenas isn't a combo guard?


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## Balzac (Jun 29, 2006)

Greetings, all. I've been reading BBforums (especially the Raptors board) for a long time but haven't contributed with posting. I guess I should've done this sooner because I've been a bball fan for most of my life and I just love talking about the sport. Anyway, here are my thoughts on Calderon:

Calderon is a solid PG who could start on many teams, but I wouldn't quite put him in the top 10 just yet. I mean, if he is better than Deron Williams, Chris Paul or Chauncey Billups, would he even be backing up TJ Ford (note: I am not saying that Ford is better than Calderon)? Have to also remember that Calderon, although he came from a Euroleague and needed adjustment, does not have much room to develop anymore (refer to his age). His primary weapon last season, including the playoffs, was his drive to the basket. If he was starting on a regular basis, I suspect teams would guard him better and make him take the 3, which he is adept at, but does not excel. His PO 3pt % was very respectable, but I am not sold on his long range game. 

Toronto's PG situation is very intriguing to me. First off, the team has two very respectable PGs in a time when the NBA is lacking talent at this position (situation could change in a few years, though). TJ Ford seems like the PG with more potential, as he's quicker and younger. However, Calderon is the type of PG you could really rely on, with a low turnover ratio and a much more controlled game. I am not convinced TJ Ford has the ability to learn to run the offense and control the tempo, nor am I sold on his pure passing ability. Maybe I am wrong, but I cannot recall a great team using a 2 PG system. Going foward this season, I think it's crucial for BC to make a decision on who he wants to run his team's offense. I think two crucial factors to consider are 1) which one is going to help young players develop more, and 2) Will TJ show improvement in his PG skills. 

Sorry for the long post and going off topic, and I hope I made some sense.


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

^^^Make sure to check out the hawks forum!

and my forum as well, link at the bottom.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Calderon might be an elite guard some day, but 6 games is just not enough to say..


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

This isn't homerism, this is a man-crush on Calderon.


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## BaLLiStiX17 (Mar 27, 2005)

Balzac said:


> Greetings, all. I've been reading BBforums (especially the Raptors board) for a long time but haven't contributed with posting. I guess I should've done this sooner because I've been a bball fan for most of my life and I just love talking about the sport. Anyway, here are my thoughts on Calderon:
> 
> Calderon is a solid PG who could start on many teams, but I wouldn't quite put him in the top 10 just yet. I mean, if he is better than Deron Williams, Chris Paul or Chauncey Billups, would he even be backing up TJ Ford (note: I am not saying that Ford is better than Calderon)? Have to also remember that Calderon, although he came from a Euroleague and needed adjustment, does not have much room to develop anymore (refer to his age). His primary weapon last season, including the playoffs, was his drive to the basket. If he was starting on a regular basis, I suspect teams would guard him better and make him take the 3, which he is adept at, but does not excel. His PO 3pt % was very respectable, but I am not sold on his long range game.
> 
> ...


Great post, keep them coming


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## TiMVP2 (Jun 19, 2003)

lol


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

He's probably as good as Bibby was last year,but then Bibby sucked out loud last year and is more of a combo guard.

If you think he's anywhere close to Chris Paul or Deron Williams it's time to put the bong down.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Everybody here knows I am the biggest (or atleast one of the biggest) Calderon suppporter on this board, but I have to dissagree.

Billups, Baron (although you could consider him a combo guard), CP3 and Deron are better. Call me a homer but I think that He is either on par or a hair close to Hinrich... Kirk's D is better than Jose's but his offensive skills (minus shooting) is far behind Jose. Now I think Hinrich will be better in the future because he is younger, and the only reasons Jose could be ranked higher than B-diddy is because he is less injury prone, thus more consistent and isn't as old as Bibby.

Nevertheless, as much as I believe Jose is better than TJ now and might be for the next 3 years, I do not think he is that high.

Parker is still better than Jose, although Jose can get to Parker's level by developping a shot because Parker isn't as good as Jose in creating (arguably because he doesn't need to, thus you can say that he is the product of a system), nevertheless he stands on his own right. I believe he deserves the Finals MVP.

I think Jose is better than most ppl believe because of he is a pure pass first PG, which is very rare in the league today...


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Thing is that Calderon is legitimately VERY good. He isn't a flash in the pan. He's a very good point guard that I take over (say) Damn Stoudamire any day of the week. He is, perhaps, the most comparable young point guard to Steve Nash? oh wait, check that, the impressive young Deron Williams has the lead.


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## neltron3030 (Jun 30, 2006)

This isn't homerism, it is mental retardism.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Dee-Zy said:


> Everybody here knows I am the biggest (or atleast one of the biggest) Calderon suppporter on this board, but I have to dissagree.
> 
> Billups, Baron (although you could consider him a combo guard), CP3 and Deron are better. Call me a homer but I think that He is either on par or a hair close to Hinrich...* Kirk's D is better than Jose's but his offensive skills (minus shooting) is far behind Jose. Now I think Hinrich will be better in the future because he is younger,* and the only reasons Jose could be ranked higher than B-diddy is because he is less injury prone, thus more consistent and isn't as old as Bibby.
> 
> ...


Jose is younger then Kirk....Kirk was born in January of 81...Jose in September. I also think that we undervalue Jose as a defender at his position. He may not handle 2 guards that well, but I think he is better then average at guarding the point position. 

Without question guys like Kidd, Nash, Paul, Williams, Parker and Gilbert are above Jose right now. I think that if the starting role was handed over to Jose(and I would if I were coach) that he would be locke dinto the top 10 and pushing up the ladder. He fits in T.O. and that is all that metters to me.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

billfindlay10 said:


> Jose is younger then Kirk....Kirk was born in January of 81...Jose in September. I also think that we undervalue Jose as a defender at his position. He may not handle 2 guards that well, but I think he is better then average at guarding the point position.
> 
> Without question guys like Kidd, Nash, Paul, Williams, Parker and Gilbert are above Jose right now. I think that if the starting role was handed over to Jose(and I would if I were coach) that he would be locke dinto the top 10 and pushing up the ladder. He fits in T.O. and that is all that metters to me.



Really? They are the same age? I didn't know that, in that case, I don't expect Hinrich to get better than him at all, it's a crapshoot, depending on how they work, either of em can be better.


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> He must be #4, if he's worth either Josh Smith and the 11th pick, or Josh Childress and the 3rd pick.


good luck in the lottey. 

this thread is ridiculous....i'm obsessed with calderon and couldn't dream of putting him ahead of paul, williams, baron or chauncey. 

i hope he proves you right...but for now, you're out to lunch.


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

nash,baron,parker ...............the rest 

thats how the pg situation ranks 

calderon at 5 ???.........please contact your doctor ASAP


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## lucc19 (Feb 24, 2005)

I'm Gettin Really Sick of these caldron fans, who dont know jack about basketball, its people like u. that are makin me start to really dislike this guy, for the Last Time, TJ is better NOW!!!! and always will be better, ok... caldron is a backup PG, he play's VS backups, ya he is better then alot of the people he plays, but at the same time. he would not be able to handle a full 82 games... now i hear this trash that jose is at Kirk H level... give me a F-ing Break. u stupid caldron fans dont know sht about basketball. caldron is not even in the top 20 for PG's in the nba. he has not done anything to show that he should even start, u people say he's soo good because of 10 maybe 15 games, where he did not play better then TJ in any, and then because of all u stupid fans, in the playoffs we have jose at the end of the game, where he gives RJ the Ball. when we should have had TJ ford out, not only because he was ripping it that game, but because thats the man who should run the Team, u caldron fans make me want to kill myself. with all the junk u talk, i said it before and i will say it again, everyone hates on TJ cuz he's Black, cuz ford played great all year, and in the playoffs he was the only guy that came hard each game. so forget caldron, guy is nothing more then a good back up PG. peace out


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

lucc19 said:


> I'm Gettin Really Sick of these caldron fans, who dont know jack about basketball, its people like u. that are makin me start to really dislike this guy, for the Last Time, TJ is better NOW!!!! and always will be better, ok... caldron is a backup PG, he play's VS backups, ya he is better then alot of the people he plays, but at the same time. he would not be able to handle a full 82 games... now i hear this trash that jose is at Kirk H level... give me a F-ing Break. u stupid caldron fans dont know sht about basketball. caldron is not even in the top 20 for PG's in the nba. he has not done anything to show that he should even start, u people say he's soo good because of 10 maybe 15 games, where he did not play better then TJ in any, and* then because of all u stupid fans, in the playoffs we have jose at the end of the game*, where he gives RJ the Ball. when we should have had TJ ford out, not only because he was ripping it that game, but because thats the man who should run the Team, u caldron fans make me want to kill myself. with all the junk u talk, i said it before and i will say it again, everyone hates on TJ cuz he's Black, cuz ford played great all year, and in the playoffs he was the only guy that came hard each game. so forget caldron, guy is nothing more then a good back up PG. peace out


and there's the other side of the coin...u also don't know what you're talking about. surely there is somewhere between jose beeing the 5th best point guard in the league and him being a scrub who only played in crunch time in the playoffs because of the fans (because mitchell is widely known to take polls from the fans sitting behind the bench as to who should play down the stretch)


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## Flush (Jul 25, 2005)

lucc19 said:


> everyone hates on TJ cuz he's Black


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

lucc19 said:


> I'm Gettin Really Sick of these caldron fans, who dont know jack about basketball, its people like u. that are makin me start to really dislike this guy, for the Last Time, TJ is better NOW!!!! and always will be better, ok... caldron is a backup PG, he play's VS backups, ya he is better then alot of the people he plays, but at the same time. he would not be able to handle a full 82 games... now i hear this trash that jose is at Kirk H level... give me a F-ing Break. u stupid caldron fans dont know sht about basketball. caldron is not even in the top 20 for PG's in the nba. he has not done anything to show that he should even start, u people say he's soo good because of 10 maybe 15 games, where he did not play better then TJ in any, and then because of all u stupid fans, in the playoffs we have jose at the end of the game, where he gives RJ the Ball. when we should have had TJ ford out, not only because he was ripping it that game, but because thats the man who should run the Team, u caldron fans make me want to kill myself. with all the junk u talk, i said it before and i will say it again, everyone hates on TJ cuz he's Black, cuz ford played great all year, and in the playoffs he was the only guy that came hard each game. so forget caldron, guy is nothing more then a good back up PG. peace out


Ya your right.....why would the guy who helped Spain to the championship be good at all. TJ may be better, but Jose runs the team better, because of that I would like him to be the starter. But what do I know about basketball.....I guess 20 years of following and coaching the sport turned me into a moron.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

IT's TJ fans like you that make me sick. Anybody who knows basketball and actualy WATCHES the TOR games knows that Calderon is better NOW. TJ has a shot at being better later, but for now, his contract and the CV trade are the only things justifying him as the starter.

Jose has proven again and again that he is a better leader. He doesn't run around at full speed like a chicken with his head cut off and knows when to push the tempo. He also has a greater Assist to Turnover ratio.

Who won the finals MVP when spain won the gold? I forgot, was it Garbo? I know Calderon and Garbo stepped up like crazy when Pau went down.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

crimedog said:


> and there's the other side of the coin...u also don't know what you're talking about. surely there is somewhere between jose beeing the 5th best point guard in the league and him being a scrub who only played in crunch time in the playoffs because of the fans (because mitchell is widely known to take polls from the fans sitting behind the bench as to who should play down the stretch)


say hi to my ignore list.


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

Jose Caldron= Most overrated player on BBF


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

lucc19 said:


> I'm Gettin Really Sick of these caldron fans, who dont know jack about basketball, its people like u. that are makin me start to really dislike this guy, for the Last Time, TJ is better NOW!!!! and always will be better, ok... caldron is a backup PG, he play's VS backups, ya he is better then alot of the people he plays, but at the same time. he would not be able to handle a full 82 games... now i hear this trash that jose is at Kirk H level... give me a F-ing Break. u stupid caldron fans dont know sht about basketball. caldron is not even in the top 20 for PG's in the nba. he has not done anything to show that he should even start, u people say he's soo good because of 10 maybe 15 games, where he did not play better then TJ in any, and then because of all u stupid fans, in the playoffs we have jose at the end of the game, where he gives RJ the Ball. when we should have had TJ ford out, not only because he was ripping it that game, but because thats the man who should run the Team, u caldron fans make me want to kill myself. with all the junk u talk, i said it before and i will say it again, everyone hates on TJ cuz he's Black, cuz ford played great all year, and in the playoffs he was the only guy that came hard each game. so forget caldron, guy is nothing more then a good back up PG. peace out



Excellent post.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> Jose Caldron= Most overrated player on BBF



Yup.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> Jose Caldron= Most overrated player on BBF


To bad no one wants to talk about anything with you on your teams forum....who do you have at the point to debate over?


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

billfindlay10 said:


> To bad no one wants to talk about anything with you on your teams forum....who do you have at the point to debate over?



The hawks forum is just as active as this one.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> The hawks forum is just as active as this one.


Another great and accurate post....Hawk's board 10,700 posts....Raptor's board 177,000! You are correct the Hawk's board is just as active as this one. 

Come back when you have something worth posting.


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

How 'bout SOME Raptors fan, overrate their player too much!


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> How 'bout SOME Raptors fan, overrate their player too much!


Every team has fans that vastly over rate their players, I thought you having a sig like that should help you remember that fact, but I was wrong.

And someone just complimented Lucc's post. So I guess there are 2 people on bbf that thinks people hate TJ Ford because he's black. At least only 1 of the idiots belong on the Raps board.


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

billfindlay10 said:


> Another great and accurate post....Hawk's board 10,700 posts....Raptor's board 177,000! You are correct the Hawk's board is just as active as this one.
> 
> Come back when you have something worth posting.


settle down bill,he`s a 16yo kid and also quite an active poster on this board 

At your age u should be able to control your emotions better

ps...what level is your coaching experience in the uk?? i have many contacts/friends in the pro game here and might even know you

regards


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## icehawk (May 30, 2003)

You guys are hilarious.

I know all fans overrate their own players but this is ridiculous.

Hinrich or Calderon is a crapshoot :lol:


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## Kid Chocolate (Jun 17, 2005)

Why isn't Darrell Armstrong in your top 10? That's the real travishamockery here.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

Onions said:


> *List doesn't include combo guards such as AI, Gordon, Barbosa, etc;
> 
> *Top PGs In The League:*
> 1-4. Nash, Kidd, Gilbert, Tony Parker (no order)
> ...


What about devon harris?
I think your list is **** btw. :azdaja:


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

CocaineisaHelluvaDrug said:


> settle down bill,he`s a 16yo kid and also quite an active poster on this board
> 
> At your age u should be able to control your emotions better
> 
> ...


bill ?


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

lolol..

Jose better than Baron, Paul, Deron, Billups.

wow.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

CocaineisaHelluvaDrug said:


> settle down bill,he`s a 16yo kid and also quite an active poster on this board
> 
> At your age u should be able to control your emotions better
> 
> ...


I will have to look back at my post....I have never coached in the UK...did not mean to make it seem like I did. My coaching has mainly been on the high school level, I also worked with a provincial development program. It does appear tht this year I will be able to be active with a local college team as an assistant.


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

ok i see,think must have got our wires crossed,hope the coaching gig works out for you also 

regards


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

not one person, whether Raptor fan or not agreed with the "top 10 list" 

so lets not label all Raps fans as homers, just the thread starter


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## lucc19 (Feb 24, 2005)

i'm not even going to waste my time, on these clowns. i take my post back, i'm ripping u, cuz what ur sayin is pure trash, if jose was on some other team, u guys(billfindly10) would say he sucks. even if he started all the games, he would not be a top 10 PG, not even top 20. soooooo talk all the stuff u want about caldron, i'm not even going to waste my time anymore, u know what i will help u, jose caldron is the best player in the nba, remember that one time he hit a jump shot, and then he played some D... how about the time he started some games, and played very well. he is the next jason kidd, no wait thats disrespect to jose, hahahhahahahahhahahah have fun inappropriate. 

Konichiwa Bi*ches


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I don't know if someone used the N word, but moderators should use the b word on you right about now.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

lucc19.....if you took the time to read my posts never had I said that Jose is a better player then TJ. Ford has a great game and has shown an improved jump shot. I happen to like how Jose runs the team better. That does not make me an idiot or some of the more juvenile ways you put it. Not every player on a team has to have allstar potential. John Paxton played a role as well as Bill Cartwright....yes we don't have Mike, but it is an example. Bosh and Bargs should be our major pieces, it is filling out a roster to play with them that will make Toronto a championship contending team. It is for that role that I prefer Jose. Is that so wrong that you have to get personal about your post. I can honestly say that it is the fans such as you that make me shake my head. Why can people not have an opinion, it may not match yours, but it is not a crime. Jose is not a top 5 point in the NBA...if he was a starter I can see him in the top 10. I would be glad to list the reasons why if you would like me to...if not just continue to rip people for an opinion with what is mostly unjust anger.

Bill


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

1) winning Gold at a competition on the international stage means A LOT in terms of basketball.

in terms of NBA? No it does not, but if you will argue that it doesn't mean anything in terms of basketball, then you should yell at the wall's paint for not drying faster.

2) Rather than throwing insults about how others don't know anything about basketball, why don't you try by rebutting the arguments that were made.

I will give it to you, TJ is more skilled than Calderon, he would most likely beat Jose 1 on 1. Unfortunately, bball is a team's sport. 

Now let's look at some of my arguments as to why Ford is actually not better than Calderon.

1.1. He runs arounds uncontrolably full speed like a chicken with his heads cut off:

Ford drives to the basket 3 time out of 5 at full speed on a half court offense, just to run on the baseline and turn right back at the top of the arc where he would often pass it out to the next player who is on the perimeter, just so that he gets the ball passed back. I will most likely get an aneurysm in the next 2-3 years if Ford is still on the Raps and still does that.

1.2.1 Jose is a better leader

In reference to 1.1., Jose controls the tempo of the game, he pushes the break when the other team is slacking on transition D or when they expect it least. Ford just runs as fast as he can into a 1 on 3 or 1 on 4, how many times have we seen that? I remember watching one game (was it Atl?) where he kept on doing it over and over, the first few times he was lucky and he didn't get stripped, neither did he score, but after 2-3 times, Ford kept on doing it (although it obviously was not going anywhere) and eventually, he would get stripped everytime. Ford is not as good at getting everybody involved. Running ful speed into a 1 on 4 is an example, yes, he's fast, but it is pointless if you can push the ball in the same movement as the rest of the team, by doing what he does, it breaks the flow of the offense. Moreover, how many times did he go into his god damn Mike James impersonation just to fail miserably? I think he only succeeded 1 time out of 3. He moves the ball half court, then jacks. None of the Raps big men had position for a rebound either. Not only is his shot not good, he has very poor shot selection, call it what you want, "trying to take over games, performing under pressure", truth is, if you don't have a good shot, you cannot be relied on to "take over games" or "performing under pressure" if you don't even perform (we are talking about shooting here) that great when there is even less pressure. The difference with Mike James, was that he was at least shooting at a great clip. I wanted to pull my hair out and would nearly lose my voice watching the raps, BECAUSE HE HAD BAD SHOT SELECTION. TJ's shot selection is quite similar to James.

Need I go more?

Seriously dude, the more you are talking about how other people don't know jack **** about basketball, the more you just look like you don't know jack **** about ball.

Let me guess, you played like div 2 or 3 (Does that even exist?) ball in HS or what? Or was it intramurals? Oh, I guess you were the star player of your phys ed class huh?

Geee, who are we to question you about basketball.


Bottom line is Jose IS better, because he is a better PG, TJ is a more skilled bball player, but he is not the better PG. Not now anyways, he def has the tool to be the better player and PG in the future, but I think Jose will still be better than him for the next 3 years or so BECAUSE HE IS A BETTER PG.


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## icehawk (May 30, 2003)

So you're saying TJ is a better baller overall but Jose is a better play-maker? I can deal with that.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Pathetic thread, thumbs down.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

lucc19 said:


> Konichiwa Bi*ches


Konichiwa means good afternoon you silly tot.

I think you meant Sayonara.


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