# Elton WHO?



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/donyell_marshall/index.html?nav=page

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/elton_brand/index.html?nav=page

*elton*________*marshall*
15.7ppg_____*16.0ppg*
*12.8rpg*_____10.5rpg
*3.10bpg*_____1.00bpg
1.10spg_____*1.30spg*
48.8FG%____*51.9FG%*
0% 3FG%____*44.4% 3FG%*
63.9%FT%___*64.5%FT%*
*2.6spg*______1.0apg
38.7mpg_____*30.8mpg*
MAX(soon)___*MID-LEVEL*
3-7_________*4-6*

again.. Elton WHO?


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

Oh common Johhny B.

Elton's stats from last night -

19 points
16 boards (9 offensive)
4 asssists
4 blocks

Elton's averages include the first game of the season which he shouldn't have tried to play in.

Plus - look at the stats you have bolded in Marshalls favor, they are BARELY better than Brands (they would be worse if it weren't for that 1st game). And the more important stats steals, blocks, rebounds and in reality points are all in favor of Elton.
I really like Marshall, but I gaurantee 9 out of 10 GM's would take Elton.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> I really like Marshall, but I gaurantee 9 out of 10 GM's would take Elton.


Even with 1 at $5M per year and the other at $10M per year?

OT: What is wrong with the Clippers? Do you expect them to start playing better ball?


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

elton is earlier in his career putting up numbers far beyond what Donyell did back in the day. for this reason he'll get more money. but donyell gives you an inside outside game that elton doesn't because of his range, and he's a more flexible player in that he can play the 3-5. 

i love the fact that we have donyell at a bargan price. he also doesn't strike me as the type of player who will gripe about a lot of off-court issues, like his pay. (although I guess he did kind-of in Utah, still his performance this year shows what a mistake Utah made in not keeping him) great pick-up Krause!!


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Marshall is a pretty different player than Brand, other than the fact they both work hard on the boards and can pull down a ton on any given night.

Marshall's post game is pretty different than Brand's. Marshall has much more confidence in jumpers and shots away from the rim, whereas Brand is more conventional and sticks to his extremely solid game within 10 feet. This is what qualifies Brand to fill in at center often times.

Nevertheless, I think that it is appropriate to say that Marshall makes up for a lot of the rebounding that left our team when Brand was traded. And he's certainly one of the best bargains of the team.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

I agree 100% with Showtyme's post. I would add that I'm not certain that Donyell will be keeping up this pace throughout the course of the season (though I hope he does, of course).

He's a career 12/6 man, playing with "6th man" minutes. We'll see if he can sustain his pace at 30+ minutes (he did last year...). Also recall that Donyell has only played in 65+ games in a season twice in his 9 year career.

I can't say "Elton who?" But I do like Donyell an awful lot, like his versatility and am glad he's around.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> I would add that I'm not certain that Donyell will be keeping up this pace throughout the course of the season


Well, his numbers are actually very similar to last season at Utah. The main difference is the 3 extra rebounds in the same amount of minutes. 

Switching to the east and playing a little more 4 as opposed to 3 next to Karl had to help the rebounding numbers.

My main concern is that he stays healthly! I am knocking on wood as i type.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Like I said, I hope he keeps it up like last season. That was his best year. As of 2001, he was more like a career 11.5 ppg guy -- not shabby, not great for a PF.

Not coming down on Donyell. Just showing EB a little love.


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## BigMike (Jun 12, 2002)

*Numbers are down because Olowakandi is playing better.....................*

nm


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> OT: What is wrong with the Clippers? Do you expect them to start playing better ball?


OT: one word - Olowakandi.:sigh:


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## Agent911 (Jul 11, 2002)

Brand is currently second in the league in blocked shots. Is that an indication of a rededication to defence - is his position D better as well? What a great work ethic he has! I wish only the best for him.


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## BamaBull (Jun 24, 2002)

*Why Not?*



> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> I agree 100% with Showtyme's post. I would add that I'm not certain that Donyell will be keeping up this pace throughout the course of the season (though I hope he does, of course).
> 
> He's a career 12/6 man, playing with "6th man" minutes. We'll see if he can sustain his pace at 30+ minutes (he did last year...). Also recall that Donyell has only played in 65+ games in a season twice in his 9 year career.
> ...


Why can't he keep this up all season? and as far as elton goes...living in the past will get those results...living in the past. Bulls are a better team for it...I think.:grinning:


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> OT: one word - Olowakandi.:sigh:


I dont see it as Kandis fault as much as I see the Clips untilizying him incorrectly. Its almost like the Clips are going through there teenage years. 

They Clips no longer merely run and gun youngins throwing up shots and bringing energy. They are also not prepared to run an effective half court offense. The Clips look weak when they slow the game down even though their players may be better suited in this situation. I see Elton and Kandi and in some respect Dre being better in a more controlled offense. 

Right now the problem in LA is ineffective coaching. They need a good X and Os man to create and teach a real half court ball movement orientated/motion offense. I pair the Clips with teams like Houston-- All the right talent tunning in circles like chickens with their heads cut off.

Would you agree Clip's show???


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## BamaBull (Jun 24, 2002)

*I had heard on espn just the other day*



> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> OT: one word - Olowakandi.:sigh:


that he was having a good year...thought thats what they were saying anyways...


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Agent911</b>!
> Brand is currently second in the league in blocked shots. Is that an indication of a rededication to defence - is his position D better as well? What a great work ethic he has! I wish only the best for him.


He has had really great timing so far. He has been able to wait until the right moment to leave his feet and has been a much better defensive presence than in the past.


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## BamaBull (Jun 24, 2002)

*what happened to the Bulls record in your sig?*



> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> He has had really great timing so far. He has been able to wait until the right moment to leave his feet and has been a much better defensive presence than in the past.


or was the bet you lost over with? just wondering. thought it was for the whole season.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

One last question, Clips Show-- Elton looks like a different person this year, phisically. He looks like he has lost a lot of weight and muscle bulk. Do you think this change in body shape has effected his game??


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## bmckay (Jul 15, 2002)

If you don't think reality is gonna hit for Marshall you're nuts


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## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

*AHEM* 



> Elton's stats from last night -
> 
> 19 points
> 16 boards (9 offensive)
> ...


I think its obvious that Brand is a better player, but if you want to compare numbers, Marshalls stat line from his last game was:

31 points
17 boards
3 steals
2 assists
36 min

:rbanana: :rbanana: :rbanana:


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> I dont see it as Kandis fault as much as I see the Clips untilizying him incorrectly. Its almost like the Clips are going through there teenage years.
> ...


You MIGHT be right about the coach's ability, however it really appears to be Kandi's decision making with the ball. He is not a good passer and even worse when the double comes. He just isn't a good decision maker. One of the many other problems I see with his game is that he is in love with the left block, in fact he almost goes there exclusively (funny thing is his best moves I've ever seen come from the right block). When he throws up that right handed baby hook, there is absolutely no one there for a rebound. So when his shots aren't falling the offense grinds to a hault.
This is why I believe Wang is a better fit. He is a threat on the pick and roll and can shoot. The clips already have numerous post up players such as Brand, Maggette, miller, Q, and don't forget about Odom. When all those players are on the court Olowakandi's game just doesn't work, he doesn't move well enough when he doesn't have the ball, and can't camp out behind the arc cause he aint got no shot. I really believe WANG is the future. He even has shown some awesome post up moves in his few minutes this year, and he plays with passion and not a whinning look like Mike. 

Last thing, Kandi's stats are very decieving. He gets all the rebounds that you would excpect any big man to get (easy defensive rebounds). He isn't a very intimidating shot blocker or defender. He turns the ball over more than you can freakin imagine, everytime the ball goes in to him I get ready to curse!!!:dead: 
Let him get his FA stats and go and ruin somebody else's team. HE IS NOT PASSIONATE about the game, HE IS NOT a team player, and HE WILL NOT be a clipper next year.
Thanks for listening to me vent guys.... trust me I don't a miss a minute of any clipper basketball game.
Lamar Odom will be back in about a month.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

*Re: what happened to the Bulls record in your sig?*



> Originally posted by <b>BamaBull</b>!
> 
> 
> or was the bet you lost over with? just wondering. thought it was for the whole season.


Oh yeah... you noticed :laugh: I'm gonna put the bulls record back up... I was in a moment of temporary depression upon reflection of the first 10 games. My bet with Johhny B. is up and I was reminded NEVER BET ON A PRESEASON GAME:laugh: :grinning:


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> One last question, Clips Show-- Elton looks like a different person this year, phisically. He looks like he has lost a lot of weight and muscle bulk. Do you think this change in body shape has effected his game??


Your definately correct he has toned down. The thing is about Elton, is that on the boards and post, he is so intelligent and fundamentally sound, not to mention aggressive, that too much physical bulk doesn't really give him to much of an advantage. He is IMO definately quicker off his feet this year and he looks great. He is blocking shots better and it hasn't effected his ability to rebound or post up so far. Also watching him play 40+ minutes the guy has the energy of a PG not a PF and I believe his new figure might have something to do with that.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

yes, olowakandi definately takes away from elton's touches, kandiman is a blackhole who is causing problems that the bulls felt would occur with brand/curry some day in the future, i just felt this post would stir some nice conversation here  

i have no idea why wang isnt getting any minutes, they should give him a chance to show what he's worth, why would Gentry go and HELP kandiman raise his market value? if i were him i would reduce kandi's minutes just to spite him and then play wang about 18mpg

something else i conveniently left off was that elton missed training camp and had surgery that is probably hurting his game right now, il give him another month or so to get readjusted and he should be back to the 20 points scorer that he is

right now id rather have marshall simply for the 2 facts that he is playing for the mid-level exception and he dosent demand touches, he scores his points off garbage play, just like a good bigman should do imo


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Showtyme</b>!
> Marshall is a pretty different player than Brand, other than the fact they both work hard on the boards and can pull down a ton on any given night.
> 
> Marshall's post game is pretty different than Brand's. Marshall has much more confidence in jumpers and shots away from the rim, whereas Brand is more conventional and sticks to his extremely solid game within 10 feet. This is what qualifies Brand to fill in at center often times.


actually their game is very similar, marshall just has more range and dosent really demand many touches, marshall lead the league in FG% the past 2 years, not because of his range, but because he plays SOOOOO good under the basket which is also where elton plays


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## BamaBull (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: what happened to the Bulls record in your sig?*



> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh yeah... you noticed :laugh: I'm gonna put the bulls record back up... I was in a moment of temporary depression upon reflection of the first 10 games. My bet with Johhny B. is up and I was reminded NEVER BET ON A PRESEASON GAME:laugh: :grinning:


lol....thanks, I mean, if I forget what their record is, I could always look at one of your posts! lol:grinning:


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> http://www.nba.com/playerfile/donyell_marshall/index.html?nav=page
> 
> http://www.nba.com/playerfile/elton_brand/index.html?nav=page
> ...


Has Donyell Marshall had to recover from surgery?


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> yes, olowakandi definately takes away from elton's touches, kandiman is a blackhole who is causing problems that the bulls felt would occur with brand/curry some day in the future, i just felt this post would stir some nice conversation here
> 
> i have no idea why wang isnt getting any minutes, they should give him a chance to show what he's worth, why would Gentry go and HELP kandiman raise his market value? if i were him i would reduce kandi's minutes just to spite him and then play wang about 18mpg


Blackhole is a perfect word for Kandi.
I think / hope Wang will get plenty of minutes as soon as he's fully adjusted. I would also reduce Kandi's minutes just to spite him, he's a cancer just not an obvious one.


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## BamaBull (Jun 24, 2002)

*DUHHHHHHHH....lol*



> Originally posted by <b>bmckay</b>!
> If you don't think reality is gonna hit for Marshall you're nuts


I was not sure what to expect from yell...but I figure his numbers WILL go down some, once jay and jalen begin to play better with each other, along with chandler, curry and hassell regaining some confidence and begin playing better..especially trent...:grinning:


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> Blackhole is a perfect word for Kandi.
> I think / hope Wang will get plenty of minutes as soon as he's fully adjusted. I would also reduce Kandi's minutes just to spite him, he's a cancer just not an obvious one.


I know this is way off topic, but what in the hell happened to Wang Zhi Zhi. Last year he was this non-entity chucking up threes and this year, he disses China, and all the sudden he is all over the court. He moves so well without the ball-- totally unexpected. He hasn't quite figured out the whole box out thing (very similar to a baby center in Chicago) but you gotta think thats comin... mark me down as a believer. I don't know how Dallas let him go.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

*Re: Re: Elton WHO?*



> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> Has Donyell Marshall had to recover from surgery?


This is a good point, you might not miss Brand now, or next year but from games 20-80 of this season, you will most likely see him out play Marshall.

-Petey


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Elton WHO?*



> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> 
> 
> This is a good point, you might not miss Brand now, or next year but from games 20-80 of this season, you will most likely see him out play Marshall.
> ...


I think the non-Bulls fans are missing the point. Feel free to compare last year's stats for both players. Both players are not so far off of these marks.

Marshall is producing in a similar if somewhat reduced fashion to Brand. And he is a heck of a lot cheaper. And TC may yet become a monster.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

I for one love Brand. I miss his steady play. I also miss Elton's offensive boards. 

To see posters say a guy has peaked at 24, makes me laugh. Elton will continue to work at his game, he'll get better. He has that kind of work ethic. I wouldn't be surprised to see that 20/10 average become a 22/12 average in a year or two. With the NBA drafting teenages, I guess it's easy to think guys are old at 24. 

I miss Brand but thanks to the dish, I can watch Elton play after the Bulls games. I'll follow Elton next season, where ever he ends up playing.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> Oh common Johhny B.
> 
> Elton's stats from last night -
> ...


Elton Brand is without question the league's best offensive rebounder. He's a tireless worker and the weight he's shed since the trade has helped him become a much better defender. 

That being said, Elton had problems in the fourth quarter as a Bull. A lot of it was due to defenses collapsing on him since he was our only option, but a lot of it is the way he plays and the one thing he'll never be able to change--his height.

Last night's game vs. Seattle was Elton in microcosm--he put up absurd numbers and drove them out to a 15 point lead. But he committed two big turnovers as LA frittered away its lead, missed two huge free throws, and failed to convert on a couple of bunnies that could have staved off Seattle's rally.

Granted, Andre Miller's 3 for 98 shooting was the real culprit here, but Elton didn't help matters. His excellence at offensive rebounding only underscores how average he is at cleaning the glass on the defensive end, and even more so in the fourth.

Until Elton develops a trusty outside shot or some other go-to move that doesn't require him to expend so much energy, expect the fourth-quarter flame-outs to continue, and expect him to stay pretty much around 20-10 until his physical skills decline. 20-10 is wonderful, but more or less replaceable.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

Valid points. However it was Brand who made the block on either Garrity or Millers three at the end of their victory in Orlando. IMO Kandi is the real kulprit for all the reasons I've already listed.

Its funny a bulls poster was discussing the trade for chandler and one of the things that was commented on was Elton's size and his inability to block shots. And now look the 2nd best shotblocker in the league. You might not have the physical assets but you can make that up with intelligence and desire. IMO


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> Valid points. However it was Brand who made the block on either Garrity or Millers three at the end of their victory in Orlando. IMO Kandi is the real kulprit for all the reasons I've already listed.
> 
> Its funny a bulls poster was discussing the trade for chandler and one of the things that was commented on was Elton's size and his inability to block shots. And now look the 2nd best shotblocker in the league. You might not have the physical assets but you can make that up with intelligence and desire. IMO


Good point.

I love Elton and miss the guy badly. The <b>one knock</b> on Elton is that he's too short, and will never be a force on the defensive end. Blah,blah, blah. They said he'd never develop an all around offensive game or an outside jumper. Blah, blah blah. Elton works hard and HAS improved all aspects of his game.

Elton looks great, he dropped a ton of weight and looks chiseled out of stone (he must be staying away from In-N-Out burger I guess). Better yet, he looks A LOT quicker off his feet. Couple that with his long arms (7'3" wingspan if I remember correctly) and Elton has been a force on the defensive end this season. Congrats to Elton. He'll get his *bling bling somewhere, in LaLa or somewhere else next offseason.



VD


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## LoaKhoet (Aug 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> http://www.nba.com/playerfile/donyell_marshall/index.html?nav=page
> 
> http://www.nba.com/playerfile/elton_brand/index.html?nav=page
> ...


Elton Brand?? That's my final answer.


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## bmckay (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: DUHHHHHHHH....lol*



> Originally posted by <b>BamaBull</b>!
> 
> 
> I was not sure what to expect from yell...but I figure his numbers WILL go down some, once jay and jalen begin to play better with each other, along with chandler, curry and hassell regaining some confidence and begin playing better..especially trent...:grinning:


Agreed. You can look at it this way, every player on the Bulls besides Marshall and Rose are only going to get better. And I think it is very fair to say that Rose gets better when those around him do so, where the same isn't quite true for Marshall.


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## JoeF (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: DUHHHHHHHH....lol*



> Originally posted by <b>bmckay</b>!
> Agreed. You can look at it this way, every player on the Bulls besides Marshall and Rose are only going to get better. And I think it is very fair to say that Rose gets better when those around him do so, where the same isn't quite true for Marshall.


Why can't Marshall continue to improve? Because he is 29? His turnovers are down. His scoring is up. His shooting percentage has improved over the last three years. His three point percentage is way up over last year and his career. It appears he has worked on his outside shot. He can still improve some parts of his game. If he can keep up his current pace I think he deserves some consideration for Most Improved Player


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

Last nights stats: 25 points, 13 boards and 5 BLOCKS!!!!!

Elton is the league LEADER in blocks now averaging better than 3.5 per game and had three absolute monster swats against the Heat last night. I am drafting yet another thank you card to mister Krause. 

Just HAD to bump this up, elton brand is the man!:clap: If we don't resign him I honestly don't think we will ever be a good team.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> Last nights stats: 25 points, 13 boards and 5 BLOCKS!!!!!
> 
> Elton is the league LEADER in blocks now averaging better than 3.5 per game and had three absolute monster swats against the Heat last night. I am drafting yet another thank you card to mister Krause.
> ...


Keep bumping this thred Clips SHow... nothing short of outrage is going to change anything for this team. Read this next sentence in the voice of Bill Walton: I think the moment when the Bulls switched to the zone (which they have no clue how to play), and the Cavs didn't know what to run might have been one of the worst in the history of the NBA. 

We need to boo and boo loudly.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Aha, the beloved voice of Bill Walton sounding down from the heavens last night, might have sounded something like this:

The defensive showing by the Bulls may be the worst in the history of not only professional basketball, but basketball at any level. Richard Jefferson and Jason Terry played much better defense while still in the womb.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Elton WHO?*



> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> I think the non-Bulls fans are missing the point. Feel free to compare last year's stats for both players. Both players are not so far off of these marks.
> 
> Marshall is producing in a similar if somewhat reduced fashion to Brand. And he is a heck of a lot cheaper. And TC may yet become a monster.


What does it matter if a player is cheaper? Not much in the world of this Salary Cap... on the current cba.

-Petey


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

hey i can take a beating like a man!

Elton B is Awesome BABY!

"Pike for the Trifector!!

misses.... E Train for the offensive rebound BABY!

E Train for the Power dunk.... BOOM! BABY!"


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Elton WHO?*



> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> 
> What does it matter if a player is cheaper? Not much in the world of this Salary Cap... on the current cba.
> 
> -Petey


Petey, my boy.

It matters.

Ask Celtics fans whom will not sign a FA for the next few years b/c of Vin Baker.

Watch GSW get screwed and lose Arenas this off-season b/c of all of their bloated contracts.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Why can Elton's teams never win games?*

Yea, I know. Elton is a stud.

But, ESPN had an article making the case that he is playing next to the #2 Center in the league and his PG is considered top 6-8.

So why have the Bulls and the Clipps sucked so bad?

Swap Chandler for Brand & we are still not making the playoffs this year IMHO.


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## local_sportsfan (Jul 24, 2002)

*Re: Why can Elton's teams never win games?*



> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> Swap Chandler for Brand & we are still not making the playoffs this year IMHO.


I'd take that bet.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Why can Elton's teams never win games?*



> Originally posted by <b>local_sportsfan</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd take that bet.


OK, winner becomes GM of the Bulls and gets to pick the next coach.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Olowakandi the second best center in league...

alright I know reading is a skill: Espn said Olowakandi was second best not Johnson 787 but somebody deserves to be ***** slapped none the less.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> Olowakandi the second best center in league...
> 
> alright I know reading is a skill: Espn said Olowakandi was second best not Johnson 787 but somebody deserves to be ***** slapped none the less.


Exactly, Kandi is nowhere near 2nd best, not even top 10. Espn's assesment was a joke. Look what happened last night without Kandi, we got of to a good start and led by more than 20 and never trailed. If I were Gentry I would just bench him the rest of the season, better yet not allow him near the team like Sprewell was told.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: Why can Elton's teams never win games?*



> Originally posted by <b>local_sportsfan</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd take that bet.


so would I. you guys miss enough elton would be averaging 30 -20 and 5 blks


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly, Kandi is nowhere near 2nd best, not even top 10. Espn's assesment was a joke. Look what happened last night without Kandi, we got of to a good start and led by more than 20 and never trailed. If I were Gentry I would just bench him the rest of the season, better yet not allow him near the team like Sprewell was told.


Its always amazing to see how a person with that much skills and athletic ability can contribute so little.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Elton WHO?*



> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> Petey, my boy.
> 
> It matters.
> ...


You are in a different boat, I have heard that The Bulls will go into Luxury Tax area to field a winning team. I think you would have some loot. Celtic owners... well they are cheap.

-Petey


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Elton WHO?*



> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> 
> You are in a different boat, I have heard that The Bulls will go into Luxury Tax area to field a winning team.
> -Petey


Not a winning team. Reinsdorf said this about a championship team. But point taken.

This has gone a little off-track, but this is my own bottom line. If I was building a new roster from scratch, I would prefer Chander & Marshal to Brand given their current contracts.

But, I do understand why others would prefer Brand. He is clearly, hands-down, without a doubt the best player right now.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

Well you know how alot of people rave about Ben Wallace? Brand is putting up similar stats and scoring... He is more then the best player of the combo you mentioned. He is slowly becoming among the elite pf, not just the best. Also you have to remember with Brand, you could still have signed Marshall. Or perhaps another FA. There are a few that were interesting, that took smaller deals.

-Petey


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The Devil's Advocate position is:

Brand wasn't going to re-sign with the Bulls under any circumstances.

Brand is clearly elite, but never going to be THE guy to lead a team to the finals.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> The Devil's Advocate position is:
> 
> Brand wasn't going to re-sign with the Bulls under any circumstances.
> ...


There could have been an attempt to extend him this past off-season, and if not trade him this offseason. Perhaps the Rockets would have been interested in Brand over the 1st pick.

What I do know is that the Wizards are kicking themselves for passing upon this guy for their pick.

-Petey


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> [Brand] is more then the best player of the combo you mentioned. He is slowly becoming among the elite pf, not just the best. Also you have to remember with Brand, you could still have signed Marshall.
> 
> -Petey


Well, the origin of the thread was comparing Marshall to Brand, not Chandler to Brand. Not Brand & Marshall. 

This is my last post about Brand in this thread in part b/c I can see how the other side (e.g. Petey or Clipshow) would think it is ridulous for any Bulls fan to say we don't really need Brand at the same time that he is playing so much better than our best player right now and is miles ahead of Chandler.

I love Brand's motor and think the Clips should max him out. However, I still don't think he is even close to the Webber\Duncan class of 4s. I don't think a team can win if Brand is your best post scorer. A team will also be in trouble if he is their best post defender - no matter how many shots he is blocking. IMHO.

This is really OT for this thread, but when I project Chandler 5 to 7 years from now, he has the potential to be the best post player on both O and D for a championship team. Of course, again, this is just my opinion.

Out.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> However, I still don't think he is even close to the Webber\Duncan class of 4s.
> ...


 Not close?
IMHO Webber = slightly overrated..... ONLY BECAUSE Both Webber and Duncan have had premier centers playing with them, which has allowed their games to take off. I would like to see Webber play with a bunch of scrubs, from everything I see he doesn't have much of a post up game. Teams could zero in on his top of the key shot, and no one would be making those awesome cuts like Jackson does, however webber is a great passer and rebounder and would still be a great player.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> Not close?
> IMHO Webber = slightly overrated..... ONLY BECAUSE Both Webber and Duncan have had premier centers playing with them, which has allowed their games to take off. I would like to see Webber play with a bunch of scrubs, from everything I see he doesn't have much of a post up game. Teams could zero in on his top of the key shot, and no one would be making those awesome cuts like Jackson does, however webber is a great passer and rebounder and would still be a great player.



Webber did play with a bunch of scrubs in Washington, and he wasn't half the player he is now. If you want to talk about poor D, Webber is the guy to talk about. If you want to talk about someone that disappears in the 4th quarter, Webber is the guy to talk about. Webber is THE WORST defending power forward in the league (solely because of his inexcusable laziness), and he disappears down the stretch. Everything that makes Elton Brand great holds Webber back from being the absolute best.

Tyson Chandler has all the physical ability in the world. He has all of the PHYSICAL potential to be the best power forward in the league. However, what will hold him back from being among Duncan, Brand, Garnett, etc. (or better) is his head. I know he's young, but he just doesn't seem to possess the intelligence that these other guys do. He just doesn't seem to have a clue.

I would much rather have Brand.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Elton just put up 26/17 on KG (who had 19/14) to <b>beat</b> the Wolves tonight. Wow.




VD


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> I know he's young, but he just doesn't seem to possess the intelligence that these other guys do. He just doesn't seem to have a clue.


How could you possibly know how intelligent Chandler is? Do you just assume that because he yells after dunks he is not smart? Youthful exuberance and lack of intelligence are not the same thing.


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## local_sportsfan (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Truth</b>!
> 
> Webber did play with a bunch of scrubs in Washington, and he wasn't half the player he is now.


Juwan Howard was averaging 18 and 7 that season. Rod Strickland was averaging 15 and 10. Not really scrubs numbers IMO.

I will agree with you on one thing...he wasn't half the player he is in Sacto. 



> Tyson Chandler has all the physical ability in the world. He has all of the PHYSICAL potential to be the best power forward in the league.


I think you are severely overating Chandler's "physical gifts". Yes he's 7'1, but he's much more than an improved basketball IQ away from being a physically dominant player. I'm sure Lonnie Baxter pushes him around in practice everyday. 




> I would much rather have Brand.


True dat.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> Elton just put up 26/17 on KG (who had 19/14) to <b>beat</b> the Wolves tonight. Wow.
> 
> 
> ...


Garnett's a small forward, so Brand put those #s up against some combination of Joe Smith and Gary Trent.

I didn't see any of this one, but apparently Tremaine Fowlkes got the game ball. 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=221207012


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> Garnett's a small forward, so Brand put those #s up against some combination of Joe Smith and Gary Trent.
> ...


Garnett didn't gaurd Brand too much cause of foul trouble, but when he did Brand took em to the cleaners! 
Tremaine played awesome D on Garnett even when he didn't get help, and nailed almost everything he threw at the rim, including a sick alley oop.

Elton and Garnett both had there moments, but the difference between the two I saw in this game was Elton's ability to pass when the D converged on him. The clips' D confused and frustrated Garnett, while Elton was able to pass out of doubles and find the cutter more often, I think he had 5 assists and 3 blocks!


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Yeah, Garnett's had a lot of problems passing the ball in his career.  

I (heart) Elton Brand. But let's not kid ourselves--Elgin Baylor would trade Elton and one of his own nads for Kevin Garnett faster than you can say "Sven Nater."


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> Yeah, Garnett's had a lot of problems passing the ball in his career.
> 
> I (heart) Elton Brand. But let's not kid ourselves--Elgin Baylor would trade Elton and one of his own nads for Kevin Garnett faster than you can say "Sven Nater."


That is until Mr. Sterling would get word about KG's mega contract... only to veto the deal.




VD


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> Yeah, Garnett's had a lot of problems passing the ball in his career.
> 
> I (heart) Elton Brand. But let's not kid ourselves--Elgin Baylor would trade Elton and one of his own nads for Kevin Garnett faster than you can say "Sven Nater."


 I'm talking about LAST NIGHT. Garnett did not play and pass well against the zone LAST NIGHT!


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## Salvaged Ship (Jul 10, 2002)

Brand's stats: 

18.4 pts
12.1 Rebs
3.4 blks

Also has 29 pts so far tonight.

Traded him for a high schooler at a time when he was putting up the same numbers for us.

Some people said he couldn't carry a team so he needed to go. Some said he wouldn't improve.

His defense has improved alot. And he is carrying the Clippers. He may be better as a second guy, but is Chandler going to carry a team?

Sorry to be negative, but that trade was awful. Chadler is never going to be as good as Brand.

That trade set this franchise back several more years, and Krause continues on.

Krause will tell you he will do that trade again today without thinking about it.

Krause is a bufoon and he needs to go.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>sinkingship</b>!
> Sorry to be negative, but that trade was awful. Chadler is never going to be as good as Brand.


Hey, I glad that it's so obvious to you about the long term potential of a 20 yr old, 7'2" freak of an athelte. I guess that there is no chance in hell that he is as good as one of the 5 best PFs in the league.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> Hey, I glad that it's so obvious to you about the long term potential of a 20 yr old, 7'2" freak of an athelte. I guess that there is no chance in hell that he is as good as one of the 5 best PFs in the league.


So far Tyson hasn't played like a freak of an athlete, he only seems like he scores when theres a blown defensive assignment or is left ungaurded. How old is Elton again? not far off..


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> So far Tyson hasn't played like a freak of an athlete, he only seems like he scores when theres a blown defensive assignment or is left ungaurded.


You are proving my point. Any guy that can score at a reasonable clip (7.5ppg in 19 min) and shoot a high % (49%) with no goto moves & without a consistant jumper is a pretty damn good athelte. Sorta like Darius Miles. 




> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> How old is Elton again? not far off..


3.5 years older & 5+ inches shorter. 

Brand had an NBA body from the start. Chandler's will take at least 5 years to grow into his.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> You are proving my point. Any guy that can score at a reasonable clip (7.5ppg in 19 min) and shoot a high % (49%) with no goto moves & without a consistant jumper is a pretty damn good athelte. Sorta like Darius Miles.
> ...


Points taken, however 7.5 points is close to 4 FG's a game, but how many of those 4 come in "garbage time". For that matter is he played by the opposing teams better defenders - no - do they double him like Elton?...... and how has his defense been this season, from everything i've seen he is extremely foul prone, while Elton's leading the league in blocks even though he is 5 inches shorter.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Plain and simple, until Tyson <i>produces</i> near the level of Elton on a consistent basis, this trade is still greatly in favor of the Clippers. Believe me, I love Tyson as a player, but Elton has worked himself into the elite class of power forwards, arguably the top 2-3 in the league right now.

The height and youth argument isn't a great one. Its like saying Jamal Crawford will be a better player than Andre Miller b/c he's 4 inches taller and 3 years younger. Not a perfect parallel, but you get the picture.....

Elton is a stud, and is missed. He will be a great one for many years to come. Hopefully Tyson will as well.



VD


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> Points taken, however 7.5 points is close to 4 FG's a game, but how many of those 4 come in "garbage time". For that matter is he played by the opposing teams better defenders - no - do they double him like Elton?...... and how has his defense been this season, from everything i've seen he is extremely foul prone, while Elton's leading the league in blocks even though he is 5 inches shorter.


Well for most of the season, Chandler has been starting. I estimate that more than 1/2 of his minutes this year have been from the very start of the game. No garbage minutes there. And being foul prone is correctable.

I have only seen limited Clippers action this year, so I have a few questions for you: 

Could Elton be the best post player on an NBA championship team?

Including Dirk and Garnett, where would you rank Brand if you could select a C or a PF in building a team?

Do teams avoid going to the player that Elton is guarding b/c of the blocked shots?


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> Elton has worked himself into the elite class of power forwards, arguably the top 2-3 in the league right now.


Top 2 or 3? I think he is clearly one of the 10 best 4s in the game. He is closer to #11 than #1.

Duncan
Garnett
Webber
Dirk
--------------------< Brand
O'Neil
Gasol
B. Wallace
R. Wallace
Walker
-----------------------
Abdur-Rahim
Jamison
PJ Brown
Marshall




> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> 
> The height and youth argument isn't a great one. Its like saying Jamal Crawford will be a better player than Andre Miller b/c he's 4 inches taller and 3 years younger. Not a perfect parallel, but you get the picture.....


*re AGE:* VD, in your wildest dreams, in what year did you expect a HS kid, 2nd picked in his draft, to put up as consistant #s as Brand? 

*re HEIGHT:* I have already seen Chandler use his height to great advantage on both O and D and do things that Brand can not do. TY just needs to add some weight and become more consistant. 

I can't say the same about Jamal and if I had to pick one would have no second thoughts about taking our rooke PG whom is about 4 inches shorter.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) yes, if there was another player like T-Mac or Kobe, or AI with him (even with Odom if he continues to improve). Remember your question asked if he could be the best POST PLAYER, he could be as long as the other scorer is a gaurd or even SF, thats why Kandi sucks, he is a blackhole who takes away from elton's touches and effectiveness.

2) Tough one.............3rd on the PF list (Elton's not a C)............. why? Dirk is my first pick, TD my second but KG is just toooo damn expensive and isn't a proven leader, IMHO he's overpaid, but great nonetheless. With that money you could sign two allstars at least. I take Brand over Webber, Wallace, Gosol and all other PF's.

3) That player's impact definately diminishes, so I'd have to say yes, he turns into a passer, not looking to put up a shot.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> *re HEIGHT:* I have already seen Chandler use his height to great advantage on both O and D and do things that Brand can not do.


Like what? Examples.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

Top 5 PF's

Duncan
Garnett (isn't he a SF)
Dirk
ELTON
O'neil

2nd tier:

Wallace
Webber
Gasol
B. Wallace
A. Walker

Why did you put Marshall on the top 10 list of PF's??????


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Could Elton be the best post player on an NBA championship team?*



> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 1) yes, if there was another player like T-Mac or Kobe, or AI with him (even with Odom if he continues to improve).


And that's why Krause decided he needed to trade Brand. The Bulls did not have that #1 option. After striking out in Free Agency, Krause decided to do it in the draft. I am not a Krause fanantic by any stretch of the imagination, but I understand why he took this calculated risk and am optimistic that it may still turn out well for the Bulls.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> Why did you put Marshall on the top 10 list of PF's??????


I had Marshall in a 3rd tier just outside the top 10. This was done to illustrate IMHO that there is too great a drop off in quality from Brand to #15 or so.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> Top 2 or 3? I think he is clearly one of the 10 best 4s in the game. He is closer to #11 than #1.
> 
> ...


Those rankings aren't bad at all. KG seems to play the 3 more than the 4 these days alongside Smith and Nesterovic. Heck, KG can and does play all 5 positions at times. I rank Elton ahead of Webber, that's just my opinion. Webber has never impressed me with his defense.



> *re AGE:* VD, in your wildest dreams, in what year did you expect a HS kid, 2nd picked in his draft, to put up as consistant #s as Brand?


Hmmm... lets see... Elton came out after his sophomore year in college and put up 20/10 his rookie year. I think it is reasonable to expect TC to put up consistent numbers by year 3 out of HS. Elton certainly did. I remain optimistic about TC.



> *re HEIGHT:* I have already seen Chandler use his height to great advantage on both O and D and do things that Brand can not do. TY just needs to add some weight and become more consistant.


Hey I agree that TC is very athletic. He's a better dunker than Elton and may one day become a better defender. His length really does distract opposing players.

Per the height argument, Elton measured a 7'6" wingspan before the NBA draft, a 9'3" standing reach (which incidentally matched some 7 footers in the '99 draft like Evan Eschmeier) and has huge huge hands. I don't stand for the 'Elton is 6'8" so he'll never be great' argument. The kid produces, is athletic, and has shown the work ethic to improve his game.

Tyson is one of my favorite players to watch. But until proven otherwise, this trade is still greatly in favor of the Clips. 




Vd


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Chandler uses his height to great advantage on both O and D*



> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> Like what? Examples.


Jump hooks
Turn around jumpers
Alley oops
Blocking fadeaway jumpers
Tipping rebound

As an example, Brand can and does shoot turn arounds, Chandler is starting to do this with a release point that much higher than a 6'8" player.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> Per the height argument, Elton measured a 7'6" wingspan before the NBA draft, a 9'3" standing reach (which incidentally matched some 7 footers in the '99 draft like Evan Eschmeier) and has huge huge hands. I don't stand for the 'Elton is 6'8" so he'll never be great' argument. The kid produces, is athletic, and has shown the work ethic to improve his game.
> Vd


FWIW, seems to me that Brand in the past got a lot of his shots blocked and Chandler definetely does not. 

The trade is in the past. Brand is much better right now. Everything else is projection and speculation.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

*Re: Chandler uses his height to great advantage on both O and D*



> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> Jump hooks
> ...


I guess I have to keep stating it : Brand = league LEADER in blocks. He has the ability to block fadeaway jumpers.

Elton is the best Offensive Rebounder in the league and your saying he doesn't/can't tip rebounds. He probably gets three buckets a game off O-tips.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> FWIW, seems to me that Brand in the past got a lot of his shots blocked and Chandler definetely does not.
> ...


Cause he was only scoring option and was doubled.

You're right!!!!!!!!!!!


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Chandler uses his height to great advantage on both O and D*



> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> Elton is the best Offensive Rebounder in the league and your saying he doesn't/can't tip rebounds. He probably gets three buckets a game off O-tips.


I didn't mean to imply that Brand could not do those things like tip balls.

*I am saying is that Chandler b/c of his supeior height, reach & hops has the ablity to impact the game in ways that a shorter player can not... *

IF he continues gets stronger
IF he continues to add some pounds
IF he continues to work on his game
IF he gets smarter

AND I have seen enough signs both last year and this year to believe that it is more likely to happen than not happen.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Chandler uses his height to great advantage on both O and D*



> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> I didn't mean to imply that Brand could not do those things like tip balls.
> ...


:cheers:


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