# The Buzz is back



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

All the naysayers may be 100% back,and the Knicks will be no better than last year...BUT

For pure entertainment value,watching Ariza,JC,Marbs and even Sweets is alot better than anything we have had in the last 5 years..

And wait until we get Eddie Robinson:heart:


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## inapparent (Jul 2, 2003)

We've got to find a way to dump TT that brings back draft picks that cd turn into big men. as far as I can see we're set for years at 1, 2, and 4 and need Zeke to tweak both 3 and 5 in the direction of youth and athleticism. given that we'll make the playoffs no matter what this year and given that we can't win a championship no matter what, I think Zeke needs to retool further, on the fly, to put us in great position for next year. Just think if we had a Dalembert or even a Blount how many Crawford misses wd turn into 2nd chance buckets


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> as far as I can see we're set for years at 1, 2, and 4 and need Zeke to tweak both 3 and 5 in the direction of youth and athleticism


The 3???????
I think you are ovelooking Trevor Ariza..

We are set at the 1,2,3,4...We desparately need a 5


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> I think you are ovelooking Trevor Ariza..


No, you're just overhyping him again.

Who would back up Ariza anyway? Did you overlook that? The Knicks are far from set at the 3.

I guess the Hornets are set at SG with JR Smith.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> No, you're just overhyping him again.


No,you are seriously underhyping again..

And if anything we are just as weak at the 1 and the 2 than the 3..Unless you like Moochie as a back up...Or did you suddenly fall in love with Penny???

I assume you are saying we are weak if we trade TT for a 5..

Do you think TT is going to be traded??


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## NYKFan123 (Sep 26, 2004)

If TT can get us a QUALITY center(hard to find in today's NBA), then trade him. If not, then there's no point.


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## inapparent (Jul 2, 2003)

I wasn't overlooking Ariza--I like what I've seen so far and feel he has promise, but I'm not anointing him a year in year out starter at the 3 spot yet


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## SPIN DOCTOR (Oct 31, 2002)

Truth,

If Erob is playing for his basketball life, then buh ya grab him quick. He is still an athletic freak, and has a very effective (read; very ugly but it goes in) mid-range game. Can also provide good D at times, but hates working through screens.

BUT, BUYER BEWARE! Every time he stubs his toe or gets a sniffle, he is out for 2 weeks. If he was mentally tough and wanted to prove something, he could be real good for the Knicks


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

This team is set at the 3. TT is a legit starter and Ariza is going to be great.

The 5 is a problem, but let's face it, there's hardly any teams that has a decent 5. Most teams get away without having one.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> This team is set at the 3. TT is a legit starter and Ariza is going to be great.


If the Knicks are set at the 3 then I guess
Houston is set at the 4
Lakers are set at the 1
Minnesota is set at the 5
Toronto is set at the 1

And so on.

Tim Thomas is not a top 15-20 SF in the league, and neither is Ariza. How the Knicks could be viewed as "set" at the 3 is beyond me.

Peja Stojakovic
Ron Artest
Andrei Kirilenko
Carmelo Anthony
Shawn Marion
Lamar Odom
Rashard Lewis
Richard Jefferson
Corey Maggette
Antawn Jamison
Jerry Stackhouse
Grant Hill
Glenn Robinson
Jalen Rose
Keith Van Horn
James Posey
Wally Szczerbiak
Al Harrington
Ricky Davis

I will take all 19 of those guys over Tim Thomas.

This is not including Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Paul Pierce, Lebron James, and Vince Carter who play SF for a decent portion of their minutes.

Nor does it include players who are debateably better than TT (rather than clearly better, like the players I listed above).

Toni Kukoc
Desmond Mason
Mike Dunleavy
Shane Battier
Tayshaun Prince
Hedo Turkoglu
Jim Jackson
Caron Butler
Luol Deng


Seriously, why are/were people so high on TT when there are so many players as good or better out there?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Add Andre Iguodala to the list.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

now now rashidi, tim sucks, but not as bad as some of those guys.

robinson, hill, rose, wally, harrington, and ricky davis are not better then him.

you gotta be kidding me with hedo turkoglu...

still its arizas time to start, tim is better as a 6th man, thats where his best years came from anyways..

ariza is averaging(not including today game)

7.5 points on 50 percent shooting
4 boards
2.5 assists
21 mins.

today trevor the 43rd pick had 15 points on 5-9 shooting, 8 boards, 3 dimes, 2 steals, 0 turnovers in 21 minutes.

today iguodala the lottery pick had 
13 points on 4-7,7 boards,2 dimes,2 steals, 3 turnovers.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> robinson, hill, rose, wally, harrington, and ricky davis are not better then him.


Robinson is a better scorer.

Hill is a better passer and team player. Probably still a better rebounder (bad ankle and all) and defender too.

I'm assuming you didn't watch Wally outplay TT, his shooting and passing are way better than TT's.

Rose is a better paser and scorer.

Harrington was 6th man of the year (TT would not be if he resumed a bench role), and can score inside, something TT is allergic to.

Davis finishes inside better than anyone (a 70% success rate, according to 82games.com). He is also a better defender and passer than TT.

Did you forget that TT has very little passing skill? All of the players listed above are a lot more likely to either have a 20/10 game or get a triple double than he is.


If TT is really better than Wally (a former all-star), then I'm sure Minnesota would have no problem dumping his contract on us for TT's more favorable contract (expires next year). But they don't have that interest, because I don't think there is anybody in the league that considers Tim Thomas better or more valuable than Wally Szczerbiak.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Hedo Turkoglu 03-04
9.2 ppg
*4.5 rpg
1.9 apg*
1.0 spg
0.4 bpg
*1.2 tpg
25.9 mpg*
.406 fg%
.419 3pt%

Tim Thomas 03-04
14.7 ppg
*4.8 rpg
1.9 apg*
1.0 spg
0.3 bpg
*1.8 tpg
31.7 mpg*
.446 fg%
.376 3pt%

Hedo Turkoglu 04-05
13.7 ppg
4.0 rpg
2.0 apg
0.6 tpg
.516 fg%
23.3 mpg

Tim Thomas 04-05
6.5 ppg
3.0 rpg
0.5 apg
2.5 tpg
.273 fg%
24.0 mpg


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## BigNasty (Nov 10, 2004)

Hill is not better than tim thomas


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
lmfao


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

im not gonna defend tim thomas cause he sucks. i just think he is better then them in terms of talent. he just doesnt care at all. when other guys dive for loose balls, hes fixing his nails. instead of boxing out on free throws, hes at the 3 point line talking to the guy on the other team while iverson grabs his miss. he just needs some motivation. we just need his 15 and 5. and 15 and 5 is better then most of those bums.

glenn robinson? theres a reason hes stashed on the IL. Labelled a team cancer basically everywhere. he was the reason the big three was broken up in milwaukee he stinks now.

some of the others like rose, hill and harrington ill agree with. i cant argue for tim, he just has to bring it. 

softest player of the year award????


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Hill right now is averaging 15.3 ppg (by far his career low).
TT's career high is 14.7 ppg.

Hill right now is averaging 3.0 rpg (by far his career low).
TT's career high is 4.9 rpg.

Hill right now is averaging 2.7 apg (by far his career low).
TT's career high is 2.1 apg.

Granted it's just 3 games in for Hill, but he's a lot more likely to maintain these numbers than TT is to break them.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Add Andre Iguodala to the list.


Perhaps a better question is, is Iguodala better than Ariza?

Tonight:

Ariza: *21 min*, 14 pts, 8 rebs, 3 asts, 2 stls, 5-9 FG, 4-6 FT 

Iggy: *35 min*, 13 pts, 7 rebs, 2 asts, 2 stls, 4-7 FG, 4-6 FT


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Iggy is very talented and has one advantage over Ariza..His body is much more developed..Give Ariza time,hes going to be an all star...


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

I didn't see the whole game but I saw 3 of Ariza's shots were dunks, including two assisted on the fast break. Iguodala's shots seemed to be more from the actual offense than off of a turnover. I don't think Ariza is significantly better than him on the break, he just got to show it more tonight.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> I didn't see the whole game but I saw 3 of Ariza's shots were dunks, including two assisted on the fast break. Iguodala's shots seemed to be more from the actual offense than off of a turnover. I don't think Ariza is significantly better than him on the break, he just got to show it more tonight.


I'll give you that, Iguodala's got the better shot at the moment. He's probably the better half court scorer. But those dunks for Ariza are a consistent part of his game, he always seems to get them. And at least one or two of them were from the baseline, or from following shots in (IOW, not within a break).

Ariza's jumper is also coming along, his form looks good and he seemed in a better rhythm tonight.

Defensively Iggy is a bit stronger and might be the better post defender but Ariza is better at playing the passing lanes. It sure seemed to me he had more than 2 steals. I think he was involved in some on a double team where the other guy got the credit.

In any case, I think they will both be significant players, and Ariza may well keep pace with him. Not bad when one is a lottery pick and the other a 2nd rounder.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Iggy is much more physically developed and has a better all around offensive game.Its not even comparable at this point.Iggy stroked the 3 and has nice post moves.However,Trevor is taller,longer and has greater upside..You ae talking about a 6'8" kid,who does not have an NBA body,no post game and a shot that will only get better..Ariza is taller,more of a slasher,better passer and reminiscent of a young Scottie Pippen..

Ariza has that special intangable quality where he always seems to get a hand on the ball,be it defensively or going for a rebound.Thats why you always see him scoring on the break..His defense leads to fast breaks

He has huge upside.


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## Jeff van Gumby (Feb 22, 2003)

Iguodala isn't a good shooter. He shot 20% in college. I don't think he became a completely new player in one summer.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

you may be 100% right as i am just judging him by last nights game..but he is better all around on the offensive end,but i think Arizas cieling is much much higher...


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Igudala was like 29% on college 3's last year, but he's currently 4-8 from NBA range. Could be Iverson is getting him better looks (28.8 ppg and 7.5 apg), or that many of his college shots were bailouts or forced in comparison. Or it could be Jim O'Brien is coaching, and he seems to heavily favor the 3pt shot and is among the best at getting good looks for it.

Iverson is 7-20
Green is 4-12
Iguodala is 4-8
Korver is 8-20

When is the last time 4 Philly players combined to hit 23 3's in a 4 game stretch? That's almost 6 3's per game from this group. Last year Philly only averaged 4.1 3's per game

Kenny Thomas is even 0-2 in 4 games, compared to 1-5 in 74 games last year (people forget he took the shot a lot in his first 2 years, but looks like they might try to utilize it a bit).

So it looks like Philly is gunning it from 3pt range this season ala the Pierce/Walker Celtics. They'll probably play better defense than that team did.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Iggy is much more physically developed and has a better all around offensive game.Its not even comparable at this point.Iggy stroked the 3 and has nice post moves.However,Trevor is taller,longer and has greater upside.


How the hell does Ariza have a higher upside? Iguodala is only one year older than Ariza. You're talking like he's a college senior or something.

Will Ariza even get to the level Iguodala is at by next year? Why do you think one was a lottery pick and one was a second rounder?

Seems to me the only reason you think Ariza has such a high upside is he's in a Knick uniform. No doubt you'd be singing the other way if Iggy was in a Knick uniform instead.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

.


> Seems to me the only reason you think Ariza has such a high upside is he's in a Knick uniform. No doubt you'd be singing the other way if Iggy was in a Knick uniform instead.





> How the hell does Ariza have a higher upside? Iguodala is only one year older than Ariza





> Will Ariza even get to the level Iguodala is at by next year? Why do you think one was a lottery pick and one was a second rounder




Assuming you can read,I said Iggys offensive game and body is more developed than Arizas...If you look at the comparitive number after 3 games,and I am only doing this to shut you up,you will see that they are almost identical except Iggy plays 29% more than Trevor...So,Trevor is producing at a higher rate than Iggy...TODAY..In the present!!

So you should be asking will Iggy ever get to Arizas level..

And why do i think he has more upside???Because he is 6'8" and only 200 pounds..He is taller than Iggy and his body is way less developed,yet he still has better numbers than Iggy..When he fills out,and refines his game a bit,he will be that much BETTER tha IGGY....

And the reason Ariza was a second round pick is because there are enough people like you out there who cant judge talent..


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Interesting post Regarding the 3's Rashidi,



> So it looks like Philly is gunning it from 3pt range this season ala the Pierce/Walker Celtics. They'll probably play better defense than that team did.


Argh, so it was O'Brien that created the Walker 3-pt monster? One can only wonder what might have been if he'd spent his formative years under a low post/defensive taskmaster.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

LOL..that is quite the revolutionary theory he came up with regarding 3 point shooting...:yes:


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> .
> 
> Seems to me you hit every branch on the dumb tree when you fell to earth:dead:
> ...



Ouch!

I hope we never disagree.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> I hope we never disagree.


The guy just gets under my skin..he NEVER takes a stand or clearly states his opinion,ala The knicks vs Boston and as soon as I make a statement regarding Ariza's potential vs Iggys,he says the most ridiculous things..



> Seems to me the only reason you think Ariza has such a high upside is he's in a Knick uniform. No doubt you'd be singing the other way if Iggy was in a Knick uniform instead


Th simple fact is he was bashing Ariza before he ever saw him play and the only reason he never says anything good about him is because he wears a Knick uniform and Zeke picked him..I mean the guy supports ShanDone and trashes Ariza????


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Rashidi,why is it guys on the Bulls thread start posts like this,and you cant see the forest thru the trees??



> Trevor Ariza is going to be the steal of this draft. He is just an amazing prospect. Last year, before the draft, I was lucky enough to catch his east coast workout. And he showed the athletic ability to be in the pros, but not much else. One guy with a reputation openly asked him why was he hurting himself? Then the summer league came. I remember Arenas and myself just being blown away by this kids versatility. He has handles, a smooth stroke and can get to the bucket. Say what you want about Isiah, but Ariza at 30 whatever was just a great pickup


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