# Hot Rumour: VC & JR to Portland for SAR & DA?



## mediocre man

*Toronto-Portland trade in the works*

It's been reported down here on Portland radio sation 1080 The Fan that a deal is in the works between Toronto and Portland

Toronto sends Carter and Rose to Portland for Abdur-Rahim and ......this is the sticking point they say either Derek Anderson or Nick Van Exel. Toronto they say want van exel so they would get two expiring contracts, but Portland wants to include Anderson becasue of his contract.

I'm not making this up it really has been reported. I'm not sure it's true, but they are the sports radio station here in portland. Some things they say are true, and some well never happen. 

All they said was a deal is in the works ................... From a sourse close to the team


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## mook

yup, he's telling the truth. here's a link from Portland's Oregonian (newspaper) Blog:

http://www.oregonlive.com/weblogs/blazersblog/



> "Multiple league sources" confirm Toronto has offered the Blazers Vince Carter and Jalen Rose in exchange for Shareef Abdur-Rahim and Derek Anderson. An additional player would have to be included on Portland's end in order to satisfy the conditions of the collective bargaining agreement.


the radio station it references doesn't have the most reliable reputation, though.


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## trick

thanks for the report guys...

and i don't really care as much on who else is the filler. vc has hurt this team so bad that as long as we can get players who can help the team more than vc has, that's good enough for me.

i'll welcome either derek or nick, regardless of their contracts.


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## Theberge43

That would be additition by substraction ... 
Without Rose and Carter ... we would suck for sure, but it would give more PT for young players and team Chemistry might be better .,... except for the fact that SAR doesn't want to play SF which he would have to do with that trade !


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## SkywalkerAC

I'll take on Anderson if I get the draft pick, Outlaw, and Monya. Otherwise, this deal makes no sense. The value from Toronto's end, has to come in the fillers. Ha Seung-Jin might not be a bad filler either. I'd rather stay away from Woods but you never know if he could contribute for us. 

SAR and NVE would make us a player in free agency. Bring the Stro show back to Canada! however, I'd still want Monya and draft pick.


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## mo76

This is a ****Y trade for TO if it is true.
Why do the raptors want SAR?:???\ Aren't we trying to develop bosh??? Will shareef play the 3?? Will bosh play the 5?? WTF. NO THANKS

Oh ya, and Nick Van Excell. How old is he? 47??? Come on. 
I didn't even look at that article cause I am pretty sure it is bs.


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## mo76

This is a ****Y trade for TO if it is true.
Why do the raptors want SAR?:???\ Aren't we trying to develop bosh??? Will shareef play the 3?? Will bosh play the 5?? WTF. NO THANKS

Oh ya, and Nick Van Excell. How old is he? 47??? Come on. 
I didn't even look at that article cause I am pretty sure it is bs.

Oh ya, and don't tell me this is for cap space cause imo the raps are a playoff ****ing team,.......NOW.


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## Theberge43

Well fan590 also is reporting this .... 
Chuck and Eric talked about it at 3:35 PM 

I'm reporting this from another board .. haven't heard it myself ..


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## CrookedJ

> Originally posted by <b>mo76</b>!
> Oh ya, and don't tell me this is for cap space cause imo the raps are a playoff ****ing team,.......NOW.


WEll not if we trade Rose too :no: 

I would really love to keep Jalen. I guess I would accept the portland deal though, VC must go. DA is an OK player and lineup of Woods/Bosh.SAR up front would be aight. Bosh as SF?


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## Theberge43

> Originally posted by <b>mo76</b>!
> This is a ****Y trade for TO if it is true.
> Why do the raptors want SAR?:???\ Aren't we trying to develop bosh??? Will shareef play the 3?? Will bosh play the 5?? WTF. NO THANKS
> 
> Oh ya, and Nick Van Excell. How old is he? 47??? Come on.
> I didn't even look at that article cause I am pretty sure it is bs.
> 
> Oh ya, and don't tell me this is for cap space cause imo the raps are a playoff ****ing team,.......NOW.


Wow calm down man ! We are probably a playoff team, but I also think it's not going to be a Championship team ever ... it's time to blow it all up and rebuilt around Bosh and Arujo ... if we get SAR and NVE we have more than 26 millions off the books ... we have to take a decision : loosing in the 1st round for ever or missing the playoffs 2 or 3 years in a row and buildin a new team !


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## Turkish Delight

I'd like to keep Jalen aswell, he actually has some heart, and likes getting the ball when the game is on the line, but I would do this trade.


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## mo76

> it's time to blow it all up and rebuilt around Bosh and ARUJO


Ya let's start building our team around Arujo.
Step one, trade a proven superstar and a solid savy veteron for 2 aging journey men. This will solve all the raptors problems.


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## trick

> Originally posted by <b>mo76</b>!
> 
> 
> Ya let's start building our team around Arujo.
> Step one, trade a proven superstar and a solid savy veteron for 2 aging journey men. This will solve all the raptors problems.


i can see how hard it is for you...espeically considering that you're waiting for vc to break out this season


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## Theberge43

> Originally posted by <b>mo76</b>!
> 
> 
> Ya let's start building our team around Arujo.
> Step one, trade a proven superstar and a solid savy veteron for 2 aging journey men. This will solve all the raptors problems.


All I'm saying is that Vince is starting to look like a Cancer on that team .... his value is going down fast ... getting two solid veterans (journeymen if you prefer) isn't bad for Vince ... we give them like 25 millions in bad contracts and get 26 millions in expiring contracts ! I say it's better than having VInce pullup 3000 other stupid fade aways ! 

Anyways ... would give flexibility to TO cap situation and we could start rebuildong next year ... we have to get in our head that the only superstar in TO future for now is Bosh ...


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## SkywalkerAC

Screw that. If you can trade jalen for an expiring contract you do it. It would be nice to have a veteran "leader" after Vince leaves but I'm not looking for wins this season, I'm looking to see our team built from the ground up.

In a perfect world we'd trade Vince and Jalen for SAR, NVE, Monya, Ha, and a first rounder (2005). I'd like Outlaw too but that would require sending them another player or cutting one. 

Starting lineup for this season:

Rafer
Mo Pete
SAR
Bosh
Woods

I expect this team to miss playoffs (quite handily) and give us another lotto pick.

Muhahahaha. Let the good times roll:yes: We should go from absolutely zero young talent (before Bosh), to a roster comprised solely of young talent with a few solid vets.


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## Numbed One

Vince Carter for Derek Anderson and cap space? :| 

Better yet, VC for cap space alone...

You think SAR will be useful to the Raptors, ANOTHER TWEENER?! Just what this team needs. We already have Donyell. Plus Bonner, and Bosh are begging for minutes.

Yup, we need another tweener :|

I also don't like giving up Rose. He is the closest thing to a leader this team has.

If this story is indeed true, Babcock is panicking. Not a good sign from a rookie GM.

It is too early to give up on this team, IMO.


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## Yao Mania

well the thing is Mitchell hasn't exactly been utilizing Rose and Carter that much anyway. Obviously Portland will be getting waaay more talent in return, but T.O. will be getting some big time contract relief, and a fresh start with SAR and DA/NVE.

I'd of course rather see Vince and Rose play like they're in their prime and lead the Raps to being Eastern Conference contenders, but right now I think this is a pretty good offer for the long run.


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## djmyte

> It is too early to give up on this team, IMO.


No offense, but Im glad you're not our gm. This team is clearly going nowhere fast. Vince does not want to be here and if you deal Vince for lesser talent than you better find a way to dump Jalen as well so the team can finally put itself in a decent financial situation and build for the future. 

I'd do the deal if we indeed are getting some younger players/picks as well.

I wonder what NVE would think about coming to a Carterless T.O? Could be trading one cancer for another. Ah well, at least he has an ending contract.


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## RP McMurphy

I think there's almost no chance that Portland trades an expiring contract for Jalen Rose. Derek Anderson would be the guy Toronto gets, not Nick Van Exel.

*Vince Carter* and *Jalen Rose* for *Shareef Abdur-Rahim*, *Derek Anderson*, and *Qyntel Woods* (salary filler, waived immediately by Toronto after the trade).

I think we'd see Donyell Marshall move back into the starting lineup if this happened, and Chris Bosh move back to center. Bosh at center was a disaster when Marshall was the PF, but with a true PF in Shareef I don't think it would be that bad.

PG: Rafer Alston (36 MPG)
SG: Morris Peterson (28 MPG)
SF: Donyell Marshall (32 MPG)
PF: Shareef Abdur-Rahim (36 MPG)
C: Chris Bosh (36 MPG)

Backups: Derek Anderson (28 MPG), Lamond Murray (20 MPG), Milt Palacio (12 MPG), Loren Woods (12 MPG)

If Rafael Araujo improves, he'd take Woods's spot in the rotation.

That's a terrific trade for the Raptors, as far as I'm concerned. Carter needs to go, and if you can find a team dumb enough to take Rose's contract too, make the trade right away!


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## McFurious

This is a good trade for Toronto... not only do we get a Roses contract off the books but we get some decent role players along with expiring contracts.

Remember with these salaries coming off the books we could land a big free agent in the summer. So we lose Carter but in the end we could land a better player.

SG Jalen Rose $48.5 2yrs
SF Vince Carter $42.2 3yrs

PF Shareef Abdur-Rahim $49.0 0yrs
PG Nick Van Exel $40.0 1yrs 

We need a backup point gaurd and we get that plus we free up $48.5 million dollars... with that money we could get a nice free agent plus Shareef and Van Exel arent too bad of players in the meantime and add some decent prospect fillers I like this trade. Remember Vince is'nt as great as he was in 99/00 and cap room is just as valueable as getting a player in the NBA today.

If Babcock does this trade he'll be lookling for the future of the Raptors and remember Bosh is going to get the max .. no doubt.


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## Numbed One

> Originally posted by <b>djmyte</b>!
> 
> 
> No offense, but Im glad you're not our gm. This team is clearly going nowhere fast. Vince does not want to be here and if you deal Vince for lesser talent than you better find a way to dump Jalen as well so the team can finally put itself in a decent financial situation and build for the future.


That is just the thing... while I don't think Carter can still be the Carter of old, he can definetly be better than he is playing right now.

It is still VERY early in the season. I would still give Carter a few weeks to try to get his game back on track. If he doesn't, I'm guessing this deal is STILL on the table. Nothing lost.

This is pure panic from Babcock and co. Shareef for Carter is going to be on the table AAAAALL year (or atleast until someone else makes a stab at Reef). And I would rather have Rose than Derek Anderson.

Pure panic move.

EDIT: If it was for NVE instead of Anderson, the deal looks a bit better, but it would be hard to get them to give up NVE with Rose going the other way, like has been mentioned.


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## SteveHartfiel

I dont mind this trade either. However I hope Babcock entertains others offers as well and doesnt rush unless he has to. We all have to remember that this years FA market is pretty disgusting. People say we should sign Stro... Why? Now if Im not mistaken we have a future C in Hoffa, he just needs to be exposed more. If this trade does go through then I hope Araujo gets a lot mroe minutes on the floor.. get him developed.. If we sign a FA this year I hope its not a 4 or 5 cause we really dont have then need for one just yet.. Hoffas a BIG guy, if he develops well then that gives us a nice big front court. Just my thoughts


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## SkywalkerAC

*WAKE UP!! Vince AND Jalen to be traded*

Babcock is really cleaning house here if he gets this deal with Portland done. Who knows how long it takes but I think it's going to go through. He's dedicated to building this team from the ground up and I for one am very excited. I wasn't cognisant that he'd demand Rose's inclusion in any trade but I'll be impressed if he can pull it off...and still get the best out of the deal.

I'll be somewhat upset if Babcock doesn't come through with regards to Portland's young players. Nash will be hesitant to give them up, as they might be essential in landing Kidd. Babs has to pry lose at least two prospects- Monya and Outlaw or a pick.

So what do you think of losing our two highest paid players? Any chance this team will improve with their departure? Will Toronto be a major player in free agency? 

How will Vince and Jalen do in Portland? It is a team looking to win now- is that all it takes to get these guys on the top of their games? 

I wish VC was going out on a high note...maybe he'll leave us something to remember him by if he gets to play a few more games at home.

Get posting. This is the biggest Raptor news we've ever had.


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## trick

there's already a thread about this


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## djmyte

> I would still give Carter a few weeks to try to get his game back on track.


Have you been watching the games? Vince does not want to be here and contrary to what some may believe he is definitely not playing up to his abilities on purpose. He just doesn't give a damn about this team anymore.

How do I know he's doing it on purpose? I've seen almost all of his games as a Raptor and after all these years I can tell the difference between a Vince that is trying and a Vince that isn't. He hasn't put in an honest effort in any game this season and I don't think that is going to change as long as he is here.


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## charlz

I smell a fire sale.

NHL strike means leaf revenues are not there and MLSE does not want to loose money even for a second.

this is what we get for the last home game being lowest in franchise history.

MLSE sux.


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## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> there's already a thread about this


I know. This is just a call to arms. Get people talking about it. If they're merged, so be it.


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## chewgum

Some of you guys are forgetting that Rahim in the East at the PF position is a monster. He is a 20/10 guy in the East. Bosh has the potential to do better in a few years, but for now, Rahim would still take Bosh to school at the PF position.

Alston, Peterson, Marshall, Rahim, Bosh would make the Playoffs. However, getting out of 1st round is 50-50, but would be exciting to watch.

TO will not be a lottery team. And even then, lottery picks are not guaranteed success (see Clippers).


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## djmyte

There's already a .... oh, nevermind.


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## Numbed One

Bottom line is, this year's FA crop SUCKS SUCKS SUCKS. IMO anyways... Big Z is not what we need... Ray Ray at the max? Yeah right...


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## HKF

I would do the deal if I was the Raptors.

But I would want both expiring contracts. Whether it was Rahim and Damon/NVE so be it. That way Toronto can fill their holes in the off-season, with actual cap room.

Even with that deal, Portland would need to include a pick.


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## djmyte

I can't see Babcock agreeing to take on Anderson. He does nothing for our team now or in the future except take up cap space. It has to be Shareef and NVE as far as Im concerned.


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## Odomiles

If this trade was to go through, wouldn't it be nice to have Andre Iguodala there to step in? If Bosh moves back over to the 5 and you've got Jerome Moiso and Loren Woods to back him up then there will be even less time for Rafael Araujo. I'm not kicking sand in your face or anything, but this trade would make even more sense if Iguodala was there to come in at SG. There's no point in getting into a "what if" dispute though, so I'll leave it at that.

Anyways, I love this trade. Even if the Raptors decide not to use the cap space this summer coming up there will be a lot more guys available in 2006. By then you'll have a better idea of where Bosh stands as the franchise player, and what kind of pieces he'll need around him to be the most effective. And if you struggle this season and next it'll just mean higher draft picks (ie. guys that will enter their prime at essentially the same time as Bosh).


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## kirk_2003

> Originally posted by <b>Odomiles</b>!
> If this trade was to go through, wouldn't it be nice to have Andre Iguodala there to step in? If Bosh moves back over to the 5 and you've got Jerome Moiso and Loren Woods to back him up then there will be even less time for Rafael Araujo. I'm not kicking sand in your face or anything, but this trade would make even more sense if Iguodala was there to come in at SG. There's no point in getting into a "what if" dispute though, so I'll leave it at that.
> 
> Anyways, I love this trade. Even if the Raptors decide not to use the cap space this summer coming up there will be a lot more guys available in 2006. By then you'll have a better idea of where Bosh stands as the franchise player, and what kind of pieces he'll need around him to be the most effective. And if you struggle this season and next it'll just mean higher draft picks (ie. guys that will enter their prime at essentially the same time as Bosh).


where u get IGGY from?


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## Odomiles

> Originally posted by <b>kirk_2003</b>!
> 
> 
> where u get IGGY from?


Well, you _could have_ gotten him with the 8th pick in the draft. I wasn't suggesting that there was any way you'd be able to get him now, if that's what you're asking.


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## butr

NVE or bust.

See if they'll throw in a young punk too. Preferably a CSKA grad.


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## SkywalkerAC

VC and Rose

for 

SAR, NVE, Monya, and Outlaw 

Would make me a happy boy. Monya and Outlaw are not going to play for Portland but they could be very useful for us. 

My Raptors for next year:

Rafer/Ray Felton
Mo Pete/Monya
Murray/Outlaw
Bosh/Bonner/Sow 
Stromile/Araujo

Plus another free agent of some kind.


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## SteveHartfiel

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> Would make me a happy boy. Monya and Outlaw are not going to play for Portland but they could be very useful for us.


See Outlaw the other night 11 points in 10 mintues with 5-6 shooting, couple boards a block and assist..WOW... the kid needs to be exposed and the raps have the lineup to do it..


He played a total of like 20 minutes last year and into a few games this year... thats disgusting


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## lucky777s

If it happens we won't suck this year.

Rafer and Nick could work well as a combo just like Nash and Nick did. Nick is a clutch guy who is in a contract year. Should be motivated.

We're still loaded at the 2/3 with Nick, MoP, LM, Mason, and Bosh/Reef/Bonner/Donny.

This trade also sets up the move to trade Donny since Reef replaces his scoring and boards fairly well.

Only question is if Bosh and Shareef can play together and if either can guard the SF spot.

Our salaries drop to about 30 mill in the summer which gives us lots of flexibility, not just with FA's but with trades. Cap space is tradeable too.


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## speedythief

I want expiring contracts. I don't want Derek Anderson.

I don't think Portland will trade DA because him and Vince are friends, and they would work well together in Portland. The Blazers could use an infusion of good chemistry!

Rose/Carter for SAR/NVE would be great. It would leave us with $26,786,960 in committed money next year. Factor-in a first round draft pick (lottery) at say $2M, Bonner and Sow together for $1.5M, and Donyell resigned for $6M, and we have...

$36,286,960 in committed salaries. Assuming the salary cap is $44M (?), it leaves us with just shy of $8M to work with.

Or, if we let Donyell go, $14M. Enough for a max-money player, though they are few and far between in the 2005 crop of free agents.

Samuel Dalembert... Joe Johnson... there are some interesting players. Though whether they are worth the max (which they will push for if we have it) has yet to be seen. Both of the aformentioned players are restricted free agents, but the Suns are already committed to $43M and they need to think about resigning Amare in 06. The Sixers are way over the cap and if they have a bad season, we could steal Dalembert.

A lot to think about.

PS I don't think a frontline of Swift and Bosh would be too good. I'd rather have somebody formidable in the middle than another athletic tweener.


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## Mr_B

dumb trade I woulden't pull it


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## -James-

outlaw will be very good i think... if we can pry him from portland i think we would make out winners in this trade by a mile. alotta fans prolly wont like the idea but its what we need to do to improve. we'll prolly make the playoffs with reef anyways but after we let him go if he doesnt sign for a lot less, we will suck hard for a year or two. a pair of rookies, and a big free agent later we should look very good. just my 2 cents...


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## RP McMurphy

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> I would do the deal if I was the Raptors.
> 
> But I would want both expiring contracts.





> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> NVE or bust.
> 
> See if they'll throw in a young punk too. Preferably a CSKA grad.


I just don't understand how Toronto can afford to be that picky. Portland is the only team in the league that has enough expiring contracts to trade for both Carter and Rose. So if I were Portland's GM, I'd be saying to Rob Babcock, "Why should I give you something that no other team in the league has to give you?" Derek Anderson has a bad contract, but it's not even *close* to as bad as Rose's. I think it's totally fair for Toronto to take Anderson back.

What happens if Toronto holds out for Van Exel, and Portland says no? The Raptors have already wasted three seasons in a row waiting for Vince Carter to stay healthy and deliver, and with him totally mailing it in, they're teetering on the verge of Wasted Season Number Four. I will say that if Toronto holds out for Van Exel, and Portland turns them down, then in two months if Carter gets injured, Babcock will be kicking himself for not caving in.


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## MentalPowerHouse

> Originally posted by <b>Odomiles</b>!
> If this trade was to go through, wouldn't it be nice to have Andre Iguodala there to step in? If Bosh moves back over to the 5 and you've got Jerome Moiso and Loren Woods to back him up then there will be even less time for Rafael Araujo. I'm not kicking sand in your face or anything, but this trade would make even more sense if Iguodala was there to come in at SG. There's no point in getting into a "what if" dispute though, so I'll leave it at that.
> 
> Anyways, I love this trade. Even if the Raptors decide not to use the cap space this summer coming up there will be a lot more guys available in 2006. By then you'll have a better idea of where Bosh stands as the franchise player, and what kind of pieces he'll need around him to be the most effective. And if you struggle this season and next it'll just mean higher draft picks (ie. guys that will enter their prime at essentially the same time as Bosh).


Sad but ture, that is why teams should draft by talent, not needs, cause your needs change.


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## SteveHartfiel

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> Screw that. If you can trade jalen for an expiring contract you do it. It would be nice to have a veteran "leader" after Vince leaves but I'm not looking for wins this season, I'm looking to see our team built from the ground up.
> 
> In a perfect world we'd trade Vince and Jalen for SAR, NVE, Monya, Ha, and a first rounder (2005). I'd like Outlaw too but that would require sending them another player or cutting one.
> 
> Starting lineup for this season:
> 
> Rafer
> Mo Pete
> SAR
> Bosh
> Woods
> 
> I expect this team to miss playoffs (quite handily) and give us another lotto pick.
> 
> Muhahahaha. Let the good times roll:yes: We should go from absolutely zero young talent (before Bosh), to a roster comprised solely of young talent with a few solid vets.


people if they trade vince and jalen for cap space (SAR and NVE) they'll just be rent-a-players for the season which means they will NOT play their future core out of position. Bosh will continue to play the 4 and rafer the 1. Donyell would start at the 3 over SAR in my opinion.


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## MentalPowerHouse

> Originally posted by <b>RP McMurphy</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just don't understand how Toronto can afford to be that picky. Portland is the only team in the league that has enough expiring contracts to trade for both Carter and Rose. So if I were Portland's GM, I'd be saying to Rob Babcock, "Why should I give you something that no other team in the league has to give you?" Derek Anderson has a bad contract, but it's not even *close* to as bad as Rose's. I think it's totally fair for Toronto to take Anderson back.
> 
> What happens if Toronto holds out for Van Exel, and Portland says no? The Raptors have already wasted three seasons in a row waiting for Vince Carter to stay healthy and deliver, and with him totally mailing it in, they're teetering on the verge of Wasted Season Number Four. I will say that if Toronto holds out for Van Exel, and Portland turns them down, then in two months if Carter gets injured, Babcock will be kicking himself for not caving in.


I'd rather have Rose and his contract than Anderson and his contract. The only point to lose payroll is to get under the cap enough to be able to use it, if we just barely get under the cap that does nothing and I'd rather keep Rose.


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## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>SteveHartfiel</b>!
> 
> 
> people if they trade vince and jalen for cap space (SAR and NVE) they'll just be rent-a-players for the season which means they will NOT play their future core out of position. Bosh will continue to play the 4 and rafer the 1. Donyell would start at the 3 over SAR in my opinion.


and on top of that what if they don't re-sign


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## Numbed One

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> and on top of that what if they don't re-sign


That is the refinition of "rent-a-player." That is the whole point.


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## madman

Bad idea, we dont need a pf we need a C


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## Odomiles

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> and on top of that what if they don't re-sign


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## CrookedJ

The Star has a story on the rumor but no word yet . . .

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...970081593064&DPL=IvsNDS/7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes


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## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>Odomiles</b>!
> 
> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: is right


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## Mr_B

but hold up didn't NVE say he wanted to be traded to a texas team in the offseason so why bring him here "we don't nobody that don't want to be here" ...right trick


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## speedythief

The idea wouldn't be to resign them, Mr. B. It would be to let their contracts expire and then let them go elsewhere, so we can spend our money on more attractive things.


To RP McMurphy:


Toronto isn't desperate to trade, though. Vince's value now is about equal to what it will be by the trade deadline, and in the summer, etc.. If Portland wants to give us Derek Anderson, maybe we could swing a Rose/Carter/Marshall for SAR/NVE/DA/1st instead. But I don't see Toronto eating a contract when the point of this trade would be to clear as much space as possible.


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## onecooljew

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> VC and Rose
> 
> for
> 
> SAR, NVE, Monya, and Outlaw
> 
> Would make me a happy boy. Monya and Outlaw are not going to play for Portland but they could be very useful for us.
> 
> My Raptors for next year:
> 
> Rafer/Ray Felton
> Mo Pete/Monya
> Murray/Outlaw
> Bosh/Bonner/Sow
> Stromile/Araujo
> 
> Plus another free agent of some kind.


If that deal went through..that would be a 4 for 2...who would we cut..or who would we toss in? Cuz we have a full roster rite now


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## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> The idea wouldn't be to resign them, Mr. B. It would be to let their contracts expire and then let them go elsewhere, so we can spend our money on more attractive things.


like who whos avalible on the FA market...were shoulden't even be talking about FA at this point of the season\


and I don't like SAR hes been a underachiver his whole career


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## Numbed One

> Originally posted by <b>onecooljew</b>!
> 
> 
> If that deal went through..that would be a 4 for 2...who would we cut..or who would we toss in? Cuz we have a full roster rite now


I don't think Monya is under contract right now... we would be trading for his rights. And I would think Mason Jr. would be the cut, without question.


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## Numbed One

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> like who whos avalible on the FA market...were shoulden't even be talking about FA at this point of the season
> 
> and I don't like SAR hes been a underachiver his whole career


If this deal went through, it would be the Raptor's management admitting the season is a wash. They would be looking to build for the future, which would make this offseason's FA market EXACTLY what they would be thinking about.

And it wouldn't matter that SAR is an underachiever... cap space can't underachieve (well I guess it can, depending on who we picked up, but it obviously wouldn't be SAR's fault).


----------



## speedythief

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> like who whos avalible on the FA market...were shoulden't even be talking about FA at this point of the season\
> 
> and I don't like SAR hes been a underachiver his whole career


I don't like SAR either, but we aren't going to be stuck with him.


FA's include:

SAR, Nick Van Exel, Damon Stoudamire, Jason Terry, Antoine Walker, Glen Robinson, Ray Allen...

RFA's include:

Tyson Chandler, Eddy Curry, Joe Johnson, Samuel Dalembert...


Take a gander at the other thread going right now to get a sense of the upcoming FA market.


----------



## adhir

u guys must be crazy....like i really think u all r.....can u think of one good free agent that we can sign this year? WHO CAN WE SIGN THAT WILL DO US GOOD???? there isnt a good free agent out there this summer....we will suck for another 2 years if this happens...and who is gonna want to come to toronto...until bosh become a star...nobody is gonna want to come to toronto to play..VC was the only high point where somebody would even consider coming here...give him up and toronto has the same faith that Vancouver has....if we trade carter we need another big time player to come back...or else thats it for the Raptors..in a few years theyll be moved....the beginning of the end if u ask me....


----------



## trick

two packages that would make me a happy are:
SAR
NVE
filler
pick

or

SAR
DA
Telfair
pick


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't like SAR either, but we aren't going to be stuck with him.
> 
> 
> FA's include:
> 
> SAR, Nick Van Exel, Damon Stoudamire, Jason Terry, Antoine Walker, Glen Robinson, Ray Allen...
> 
> RFA's include:
> 
> Tyson Chandler, Eddy Curry, Joe Johnson, Samuel Dalembert...
> 
> 
> Take a gander at the other thread going right now to get a sense of the upcoming FA market.


be realistic for a sec do you honestly think any of these guys are willing to come to canada and on top of that most of these guys are gonna demand a similar contract that vince has right now so what does that really do for us I'am cool with trading vince but I don't see how this move helps at all


----------



## trick

players vince has convinced to come to tor:
Hakeem Olajuwon
Milt Palacio


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> players vince has convinced to come to tor:
> Hakeem Olajuwon
> Milt Palacio


point being?


----------



## kirk_2003

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> players vince has convinced to come to tor:
> Hakeem Olajuwon
> Milt Palacio


:laugh:


----------



## kirk_2003

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> point being?


not a good attractor...


----------



## trick

> Originally posted by <b>kirk_2003</b>!
> 
> 
> not a good attractor...


for players or (as proof of this season) home fans


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>kirk_2003</b>!
> 
> 
> not a good attractor...


nobody told glen to sign em


----------



## Numbed One

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> nobody told glen to sign em


:uhoh:


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>Numbed One</b>!
> 
> 
> :uhoh:


lol...I'am not gonna lie though I did like the hakeem signing I thought it would put us over the hump


----------



## Crossword

This isn't a good trade... cap space is over-rated. But after thinking about it, it's not <i>awful</i>. Especially if the premise is Vince & Rose for SAR & NVE. The Blazers are clearly getting the better end of this deal, so they'll prolly throw in extras (1st rounder, cash, filler).

If it goes down, I'll be devastated to see Vince AND Rose gone in the same trade (I was hoping to keep Rose a Raptor), but it's time to move on.... too bad it has to be like this.


----------



## djmyte

Any trade where you don't get equal(or better value) back is technically a "bad" trade. The key is for the Raps to try and get potential. It may not be equal now but at least when potential is involved you have the opportunity to come out on top or at least break even in the future. Hopefully Babs is a slick negotiator.


----------



## crimedog

vince is f-d. they have to trade him right now. i can't even stand watching him out there. i've never seen so little effort from a player. trade him right now, because i think you might be witnessing the biggest fall from grace ever. the way he's going right now, this could be VC's last year as a starter, let alone STAR. 


TRADE VINCE! and if we can get rid of jalen's contract, trade him too. the fans can take rebuilding, it's this wishy washy high spending, underachieving business that has everyone so disinterested.


----------



## madman

Rafer
Anderson
Bosh
Rahim
Woods

would be our line up if we got DA 


How does this improve our team??


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>crimedog</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> TRADE VINCE! and if we can get rid of jalen's contract, trade him too. the fans can take rebuilding, it's this wishy washy high spending, underachieving business that has everyone so disinterested.


no we can't just look at the this board *****es over 1 loss


----------



## Turkish Delight

> Originally posted by <b>RP McMurphy</b>!
> I think there's almost no chance that Portland trades an expiring contract for Jalen Rose. Derek Anderson would be the guy Toronto gets, not Nick Van Exel.
> 
> *Vince Carter* and *Jalen Rose* for *Shareef Abdur-Rahim*, *Derek Anderson*, and *Qyntel Woods* (salary filler, waived immediately by Toronto after the trade).
> 
> I think we'd see Donyell Marshall move back into the starting lineup if this happened, and Chris Bosh move back to center. Bosh at center was a disaster when Marshall was the PF, but with a true PF in Shareef I don't think it would be that bad.
> 
> PG: Rafer Alston (36 MPG)
> SG: Morris Peterson (28 MPG)
> SF: Donyell Marshall (32 MPG)
> PF: Shareef Abdur-Rahim (36 MPG)
> C: Chris Bosh (36 MPG)
> 
> Backups: Derek Anderson (28 MPG), Lamond Murray (20 MPG), Milt Palacio (12 MPG), Loren Woods (12 MPG)
> 
> If Rafael Araujo improves, he'd take Woods's spot in the rotation.
> 
> That's a terrific trade for the Raptors, as far as I'm concerned. Carter needs to go, and if you can find a team dumb enough to take Rose's contract too, make the trade right away!


There is no way Bosh will play center this season. This year he has finally been putting some points on the board, and who knows, maybe he can end up averaging 16 or 17 PPG at the 4. He won't be able to do that playing center, even in the Eastern Conference.


----------



## crimsonice

man.. there's just gotta be a better trade out there than the portland one...

if we're looking for just cap space.. why not trade him to Philly for Robinson and Igulada + a draft pick.. at least we get some potential in return... with the portland trade, we get nothing but cap space.. it's not like we'll attract big free agents here...

plus it was be good to see Vince and AI on the same team. Damn.. that would be great.


----------



## Turkish Delight

Right now I think the Portland trade would be the fairest one available. We could have gotten a lot more this summer, but since then VC's value has dropped dramatically. Hopefully Babcock can get this deal done soon, if not, I would love to see a deal involving Chicago in December, a trade involving the likes of Ben Gordon?


There's just one thing I don't get, say we get Van Exel and Reef in here. What will our lineup be? I really can't see Bosh playing at the 5 this season.


----------



## ballocks

i don't know whether this is legit or not, but rob babcock is beginning to disappoint me on a consistent basis. 

this is not the time to deal vince carter. his value is as low as it's _ever_ been- ever- and the raptors are dealing from a pretty desperate position in the wake of their 1-5 road trip. you just don't make the trade now- you can't. it doesn't matter whether it's a good trade or not; you sit on your assets and wait.

i've never been a fan of knee-jerk reactions and thus i'm not really a fan of this rumour. i don't necessarily even care who's coming in from portland- this is not the time to move vince carter.

you _wait_.

peace


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>crimsonice</b>!
> 
> if we're looking for just cap space.. why not trade him to Philly for Robinson and Igulada + a draft pick.. at least we get some potential in return..


never trade in your division thats one of the worst things u can do


----------



## Numbed One

> Originally posted by <b>ballocks</b>!
> i don't know whether this is legit or not, but rob babcock is beginning to disappoint me on a consistent basis.
> 
> this is not the time to deal vince carter. his value is as low as it's _ever_ been- ever- and the raptors are dealing from a pretty desperate position in the wake of their 1-5 road trip. you just don't make the trade now- you can't. it doesn't matter whether it's a good trade or not; you sit on your assets and wait.
> 
> i've never been a fan of knee-jerk reactions and thus i'm not really a fan of this rumour. i don't necessarily even care who's coming in from portland- this is not the time to move vince carter.
> 
> you _wait_.
> 
> peace



:yes: 

Thank you ballocks. Maybe now that a well known and respected poster has said this people will listen.


----------



## Ballyhoo

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> never trade in your division thats one of the worst things u can do


Not if you get the best of the trade. The "never trade in your division" rule of thumb is for teams that routinely get fleeced on every deal they make. Was the Artest, Mercer, Brad Miller and Kevin Ollie for Jalen Rose,Travis Best, Norman Richardson a bad trade for the Pacers because it was in the division?


----------



## SteveHartfiel

Ok first of all with not disrespect but mr_b you have to have legit points for anyone to take you seriosly. Not saying your a bad poster etc but saying that toronto's not goign to attract anyone is ridiculous. Players love Canada, why wouldnt they? With the exception of Steve Francis most players enjoy it here, we are in no way going to lose the fan base when we trade Vince and the talk of a move from toronto doesnt make sense. The raptors have a great attendance record, perhaps not as good lately but still amoung the top in the league, Toronto is to much of a market for the NBA, they have to have Canada represented by a team now, there will be no move. 

If the raptors trade they should very strongly consider pushing for outlaw... like I said hes a potentially great sf that we could very much use. He played great the other night and just needs to showcase his talents.

As for who would play the 4, Bosh no question, SAR has no choice in the matter, sure cry if you want but the fact of the matter is its contract time at the end of the season and without playing time hes only hurting himself, not the raptors. He will be well aware that the raptors only want him for cap space, and the issue of him refusing to play wouldnt even really be a big care for the raptors, hes there for money. 


As for free agents there are several RFA that we could go for Redd and Wallace would be 2 that come to mind, if we dont get them and the offers are matched we lose nothing and we can wait for next year.


----------



## speedythief

> Originally posted by <b>ballocks</b>!
> i don't know whether this is legit or not, but rob babcock is beginning to disappoint me on a consistent basis.
> 
> this is not the time to deal vince carter. his value is as low as it's _ever_ been- ever- and the raptors are dealing from a pretty desperate position in the wake of their 1-5 road trip. you just don't make the trade now- you can't. it doesn't matter whether it's a good trade or not; you sit on your assets and wait.
> 
> i've never been a fan of knee-jerk reactions and thus i'm not really a fan of this rumour. i don't necessarily even care who's coming in from portland- this is not the time to move vince carter.
> 
> you _wait_.
> 
> peace


Well, who knows what the actual situation is. If we're talking about unloading our worst contracts in one shot, getting capspace for the summer, and possibly some young talent in the process, I don't think there is ever a bad time for negotiations.

With the way Carter has been playing, I think there have probably been a few GM's to inquire about Vince--not because Vince's play is down, but because they think fresh-faced Babcock is ready to hit the eject button.

The problem with passing on a good deal and waiting on a great deal is that the great deal is currently non-existent. The great deal could never happen should Vince get an injury, or should Jalen suffer an injury (with Alvin also on the IR, the chances of Carter being traded go way down because we cannot unload one of our bad contracts in the process with both players injured). Also, the risk of Carter's value continuing to depreciate is considerable. Just because he's playing poorly now doesn't mean he will play better next week, or next month.

Honestly, even if Vince starts to play like last year again, I doubt that an ideal trade would present itself. The difference between Vince's value now and Vince's value at 24/5/5 is probably a first-round draft pick, either chosen (like Monya) or for the future. GM's around the league know what they would/could/might be getting in Vince whether he is in a slump or on the up-and-up.


This is the kind of deal that we would've considered before the beginning of the season. In fact, we talked at length about some similar cap-oriented deals in the "vince carter trade ideas thread", but the notion was that Portland was looking to keep their cap space to themselves. Doesn't seem like the case anymore.

The ESPN-reported rumour is bogus, IMO. It suggests that Vince, Jalen, and a couple of other Raptors of low salary players (meaning Roger, Jerome, Loren, Matt, or Milt; Bonner and Woods cannot be traded until December 15th) will be traded for Abdur-Rahim, Derek Anderson, Vladmir Stepania, and filler (Qyntel?). I doubt Babcock would jump on that one.



To me, the "ideal" trade is to:

- Move Carter out of our Division, preferably our Conference;
- Dump bad contract(s);
- Get cap space now or when we need to resign Bosh;
- Get young talent or draft picks;
- Improve our frontcourt.


Trading Carter to Portland satisfies the first requirement. Trading Jalen in the process satisfies the second, though moving A-Dub would also be nice (but it seems like an impossibility). Cap space to the tune of $14M (just SAR) or $29M (SAR+NVE) is huge, especially considering the deep 05 free agent market, so the third requirement is fulfilled, too. Young talent can possibly be had in one of the CSKA players, or in signing a young stud in the offseason. SAR would deepen our frontcourt like the ocean should this trade happen, too. At least for the season. Then we can make a run at a good young big in the offseason to compliment Bosh, or a couple of mid-level guys.

Depending on the variation of this trade, it could either be a tough pill to swallow (SAR, Anderson, etc.) or a huge bonus (SAR and Van Exel, or young guys).

I wouldn't write-off Babcock just yet.


----------



## Numbed One

Kinda OT, but...

The Blazers board is a train wreck. They have about 10-15 topics started in the last few hours on basically the same subject (the trade).

It makes you appreciate the posters and good moderating we have on the Raptors board...


----------



## bigbabyjesus

I like this trade, but i'm not estatic over it.

We get enough cap room, but I don't like the free agent class next year at all, except for a few guys. And I wouldn't be able to wait another year, and I don't think any other fans would be able to either. 

And if we do the trade, I honestly don't think we'd be that much worse then we are now. Shareef is a useful post player and would help big time with his rebounding. NVE can be counted upon in the clutch and would provide a nice spark off the bench. 

I still think they need to add a first rounder also, but I'd LOVE it if they added Telfair.


----------



## arenas809

Well Nash and Babcock must have heard the conversation I had early this morning with HKF about this, and basically HKF suggested the trade, except this is not good for Toronto if you take back Anderson.

If I'm Toronto I want NVE, Outlaw, and Reef, or I'm hanging up the phone.


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>SteveHartfiel</b>!
> Ok first of all with not disrespect but mr_b you have to have legit points for anyone to take you seriosly. Not saying your a bad poster etc but saying that toronto's not goign to attract anyone is ridiculous. Players love Canada, why wouldnt they? With the exception of Steve Francis most players enjoy it here, we are in no way going to lose the fan base when we trade Vince and the talk of a move from toronto doesnt make sense. The raptors have a great attendance record, perhaps not as good lately but still amoung the top in the league, Toronto is to much of a market for the NBA, they have to have Canada represented by a team now, there will be no move.
> 
> If the raptors trade they should very strongly consider pushing for outlaw... like I said hes a potentially great sf that we could very much use. He played great the other night and just needs to showcase his talents.
> 
> As for who would play the 4, Bosh no question, SAR has no choice in the matter, sure cry if you want but the fact of the matter is its contract time at the end of the season and without playing time hes only hurting himself, not the raptors. He will be well aware that the raptors only want him for cap space, and the issue of him refusing to play wouldnt even really be a big care for the raptors, hes there for money.
> 
> 
> As for free agents there are several RFA that we could go for Redd and Wallace would be 2 that come to mind, if we dont get them and the offers are matched we lose nothing and we can wait for next year.


*sighs*

#1 when the last time we landed a free agent not just a any free agent a MAJOR free agent

#2 attendance wouden't decline? take note when did toronto attendance started to rise? it was when vince started getting popular

#3 Outlaw? come on now this guy is wack if anything hes just a rebounder has no offensive game and coulden't hit a freethrow to save his life

overall this trade is garbage serves the team no purpose and a trade like this shows that the team already given up on the season portland completly ripping off toronto in this one and no don't come at me with something different cuz nuttin gonna change my mind compare portland posible line up with ours then match our roster up with the rest of the division


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> I like this trade, but i'm not estatic over it.
> 
> We get enough cap room, but I don't like the free agent class next year at all, except for a few guys. And I wouldn't be able to wait another year, and I don't think any other fans would be able to either.
> 
> And if we do the trade, I honestly don't think we'd be that much worse then we are now. Shareef is a useful post player and would help big time with his rebounding. NVE can be counted upon in the clutch and would provide a nice spark off the bench.
> 
> I still think they need to add a first rounder also, but I'd LOVE it if they added Telfair.


co sign


----------



## Sambonius

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> 
> #3 Outlaw? come on now this guy is wack if anything hes just a rebounder has no offensive game and coulden't hit a freethrow to save his life


Have you even seen Outlaw play? He has a silky smooth jump shot and doesn't rebound well, so in actuality he plays exactly the opposite of what you described, dude do yourself a favor and don't comment on players you haven't seen play.


----------



## Numbed One

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> *sighs*
> 
> #1 when the last time we landed a free agent not just a any free agent a MAJOR free agent
> 
> #2 attendance wouden't decline? take note when did toronto attendance started to rise? it was when vince started getting popular
> 
> #3 Outlaw? come on now this guy is wack if anything hes just a rebounder has no offensive game and coulden't hit a freethrow to save his life
> 
> overall this trade is garbage serves the team no purpose and a trade like this shows that the team already given up on the season portland completly ripping off toronto in this one and no don't come at me with something different cuz nuttin gonna change my mind compare portland posible line up with ours then match our roster up with the rest of the division


#1 You're right

#2 What happened when the Raptors started getting popular? They started WINNING. It is important to differentiate the two. The Raptors start winning consistently again, I guarantee sellouts galore.

#3 :laugh: We're talking about Travis Outlaw, not Bo Outlaw


----------



## arenas809

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> #3 Outlaw? come on now this guy is wack if anything hes just a rebounder has no offensive game and coulden't hit a freethrow to save his life


Gotta love guys who don't really know much about players and yet still have comments.


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>Numbed One</b>!
> 
> 
> #1 You're right
> 
> #2 What happened when the Raptors started getting popular? They started WINNING. It is important to differentiate the two. The Raptors start winning consistently again, I guarantee sellouts galore.
> 
> #3 :laugh: We're talking about Travis Outlaw, not Bo Outlaw


whoops lol


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Gotta love guys who don't really know much about players and yet still have comments.


gota love em


----------



## speedythief

It should be noted that the current attendance is down _with_ Vince Carter. That's with him healthy, and with most people buying tickets before the supposed slump began.


----------



## McFurious

Anyway we could ring back Damon (mighty mouse) back to TO?

Trade Idea

To Portland: 
PF Donyell Marshall 
SF Vince Carter 
SG Jalen Rose 

To Toronto: 
PF Shareef Abdur-Rahim 
PG Damon Stoudamire 
SF Travis Outlaw 

TRADE ACCEPTED


----------



## Crossword

> Originally posted by <b>McFurious</b>!
> Anyway we could ring back Damon (mighty mouse) back to TO?
> 
> Trade Idea
> 
> To Portland:
> PF Donyell Marshall
> SF Vince Carter
> SG Jalen Rose
> 
> To Toronto:
> PF Shareef Abdur-Rahim
> PG Damon Stoudamire
> SF Travis Outlaw
> 
> TRADE ACCEPTED


That's the worst proposal I've heard all night.


----------



## EBP2K2

> Originally posted by <b>McFurious</b>!
> Anyway we could ring back Damon (mighty mouse) back to TO?
> 
> Trade Idea
> 
> To Portland:
> PF Donyell Marshall
> SF Vince Carter
> SG Jalen Rose
> 
> To Toronto:
> PF Shareef Abdur-Rahim
> PG Damon Stoudamire
> SF Travis Outlaw
> 
> TRADE ACCEPTED


why bring Damon back? one expensive backup unless he's contract is expiring...
Rafer 's game is 10 times better than Damon's


----------



## Numbed One

> Originally posted by <b>EBP2K2</b>!
> 
> 
> why bring Damon back? one expensive backup unless he's contract is expiring...
> Rafer 's game is 10 times better than Damon's


His contract is expiring, just like NVE and Shareef.


----------



## McFurious

> Originally posted by <b>Budweiser_Boy</b>!
> 
> 
> That's the worst proposal I've heard all night.





> Originally posted by <b>EBP2K2</b>!
> 
> 
> why bring Damon back? one expensive backup unless he's contract is expiring...
> Rafer 's game is 10 times better than Damon's



Yes.. his contract is expired after the season.:sigh: 

You guys have totally missed the boat on this trade havent you?


----------



## Crossword

> Originally posted by <b>Numbed One</b>!
> 
> 
> His contract is expiring, just like NVE and Shareef.


Oh for real? I take back that comment then.... although I'd much rather have NVE.


----------



## Crossword

> Originally posted by <b>McFurious</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.. his contract is expired after the season.:sigh:
> 
> You guys have totally missed the boat on this trade havent you?


Yeah my bad I didn't check the contract...


----------



## madman

ok so we get cap back so what who are we going to sign? 

Ray Allen - going to be expensive if he keeps playing this way

Tyson Chandler - Do we want to take the risk?

Eddy Curry - Read above

Zydrunas Ilgauskas - Why would he want to leave a team with LBJ?

Stromile Swift - Flashy player but a PF and we need more size

Samuel Dalembert - No reason why Phili wont match whatever we offer

Kwame Brown - Another CB4 almost 

Honestly i dont see who we plan on signing that would make our team so much better then they are now


----------



## Sánchez AF

I'm agree madman

Ray Allen - we probably want the max for 6-7 yrs and thats too much

Tyson Chandler - Do we want to take the risk? and he's more a PF than a center

Eddy Curry - +++ risk

Zydrunas Ilgauskas - Also he want the max would somebody give him the max ?

Stromile Swift - Awesome dunks but not a great powen in the paint 

Samuel Dalembert - No reason why Phili wont match whatever we offer - so true

Kwame Brown - Another CB4 almost and big risk too 

Michael Redd - He want be in TO ? if the clippers offer a big contract he probably would take it and he dont deserve the mex either


----------



## Turkish Delight

> Originally posted by <b>madman</b>!
> ok so we get cap back so what who are we going to sign?
> 
> Ray Allen - going to be expensive if he keeps playing this way
> 
> Tyson Chandler - Do we want to take the risk?
> 
> Eddy Curry - Read above
> 
> Zydrunas Ilgauskas - Why would he want to leave a team with LBJ?
> 
> Stromile Swift - Flashy player but a PF and we need more size
> 
> Samuel Dalembert - No reason why Phili wont match whatever we offer
> 
> Kwame Brown - Another CB4 almost
> 
> Honestly i dont see who we plan on signing that would make our team so much better then they are now


I'd go for Tyson, he played well in the beginning of last year before he got injured. He's playing okay this season aswell. He has a lot of potential, and I think he would be good with our up tempo system.


----------



## Crossword

Michael Redd? You didn't give any explanation for why we can't get him...


----------



## McFurious

With cap room we are free from the shackles which Glen Grunwald put us in. We have many options:

1. Sign a free agent
2. Can take on cap relief making it more flexible for us to make trades with other teams.
3. Wait for the class of 06 and sign us a major free agent.

If you can in one trade can create 30 million in cap room which would of taken you 5 seasons to create... you do it!!

Let us not forget that Marshall is coming off the books as well. I feel like a kid in a candy store... since when was the last time Raps were in a position to free up some cap space let alone 30million.

**BUT WAIT THERES MORE**

BABCOCK IS BRILLANT!!!!!!

By leaking this trade to the media it sends a msg to others teams around the league that Vince is coming off the market so get your trade proposals in. So there is still a chance a team like Chicago, New Orleans, or Dallas will step in with a better offer.


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>Numbed One</b>!
> Kinda OT, but...
> 
> The Blazers board is a train wreck. They have about 10-15 topics started in the last few hours on basically the same subject (the trade).
> 
> It makes you appreciate the posters and good moderating we have on the Raptors board...


speaking as a former mod for the blazers fourm, when you have the # of posters, the # of total posts, the # of trolls coming into your forum because it's the ****, and # of outsiders continually coming into your own forum that have nothing to do with your team (and not just when it's involving trade rumors with your team) as we do, than you can act like we don't have good posters or good moderators.

all that said, I personally think this trade isn't going to happen. We're totally taking it to the Raptors with the trade.


----------



## madman

> Originally posted by <b>Budweiser_Boy</b>!
> Michael Redd? You didn't give any explanation for why we can't get him...


well ok

Micheal Redd - will want a lot of money and we wont be able to sign him and a decent C at the same time, the question is who would you rather have redd and a season without a C again or a C and have Mo start?


----------



## Turkish Delight

I still don't understand, if we do this trade where will Reef play? Putting Bosh on C will be a waste.


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>jcintosun911</b>!
> I still don't understand, if we do this trade where will Reef play? Putting Bosh on C will be a waste.


we in Portland have been lead to believe he plays the small forward position.


----------



## madman

> Originally posted by <b>jcintosun911</b>!
> I still don't understand, if we do this trade where will Reef play? Putting Bosh on C will be a waste.


exactly, it is saying to the fans we know we cant compete this year so let's tank it and see what happens


----------



## trick

i don't understand how you guys would think babcock and co. would be shouting 'tank' if this trade does go though.

the raps, without rose and carter, have proven they can still compete for wins. how can reef make things worse?


----------



## madman

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> i don't understand how you guys would think babcock and co. would be shouting 'tank' if this trade does go though.
> 
> the raps, without rose and carter, have proven they can still compete for wins. how can reef make things worse?


trading 2 star players for 2 expiring contracts hmmm seems kinda obvious


----------



## trick

> Originally posted by <b>madman</b>!
> 
> 
> trading 2 star players for 2 expiring contracts hmmm seems kinda obvious


funny, since when has carter shown he's still a star this season? and it took rose like what, 7 games before he actually turned around? even then, he wasn't a factor in any of the raps wins.

stop comparing rose and carter to what they were, but how they are now.


----------



## Primetime23

Jalen actually played well last game, dropped 30, but i cringe every time i see his contract plus he still has a coupl years left on it.

I've been lobbying for carter to get traded for years now i would be ecstatic if we could get rid of him. This guy is the most overrated player in the league and now he's just sulking on the court, his play and attitude have become detramental the team.

I like the idea of getting free of Rose and Carter's contracts, both are overpaid and most likely their best days are behind them.

Really, what kind of hope do we have if we hold onto both of these guys? we might squeek into the playoffs and lose in the first round. Personally, i would rather have some kind of cap space and a shot at building a team that has a better shot at competeing a couple years down the road. 

If we make this trade (hopefully) the raptors will be in a position like the Jazz and Nuggets were last year with a boatload of cap room to bring in some talent.


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> funny, since when has carter shown he's still a star this season? and it took rose like what, 7 games before he actually turned around? even then, he wasn't a factor in any of the raps wins.
> 
> stop comparing rose and carter to what they were, but how they are now.


funny thats what u been doing from day 1


----------



## bigbabyjesus

> Originally posted by <b>madman</b>!
> 
> 
> well ok
> 
> Micheal Redd - will want a lot of money and we wont be able to sign him and a decent C at the same time, the question is who would you rather have redd and a season without a C again or a C and have Mo start?


If we get Shareef, NVE.. plus we have Marshalls expiring deal.. I'm pretty sure thats around 30 million + right now..

We could sign two max players if im not mistaken.


----------



## MangoMangoMango

1. The trade won't happen
2. even if it did..I can guarentee SAR will start on the bench


----------



## AReallyCoolGuy

> Vince get an injury


Don't make me laugh, you have to play hard to get an injury, and we know that's not going to happen anytime soon. We just have to worry that BOsh won't hit him in the head again during the introductions.

I like the basis of the deal. I think if the right deal comes along you take it, and I think this is the right type of deal for the Raps. It would almost completely remove us from the Grunwald Era and all those bad contracts. 

we'd have cap flexibility for the first time in a long time. We don't have to throw it all away in one year, I'd prefer to try stay around or under the capp all the time. 

Basically I like this deal because it lets us rebuild, and we can do it much more effincently.


----------



## TRON

People on this board are seriously undervaluing VC because of his most recent lackidasical efforts...I like getting Jalen's contract off the books, but this trade, even with NVE included seems a little one sided

Portland 
Pg-Damon
Sg-VC
Sf- Jalen
pf- Zach Randolf
C- Ratliff
 

I understand the implications of salary cap space, but with the way players are getting overpaid these days, wouldn't we be trading an overpaid player now for an a future player that we can then overpay...If we are into a salary cap dump, can we atleast find something currently more servicable

screw this trade, let VC rot till he can he increase his trade value...I know it was like a year ago but talks of an AI/VC trade was concievable a year ago, and now all he is, is a combined salary cap dump, I think we can do better, I hope Babcock can be patient because we can prolly do this trade anytime B4 the trading deadline so let's see if Vince can snag us a Center(Ratliff) or some much needed size


----------



## ozzzymandius

*I love this idea !!! Get them gone*

Ok .. first of all I'm not a VC hater ... I love the guy. And I watch almost all the games hoping that he'll turn in a miracle performance like we all know he can. But truth is ... he's just simply not the player he used to be. He's not even all that good at what he's doing right now with the jump shot. 


The past nine games have shown one thing ... This team can easily play without him and he's now nothing but a bench player. He should be coming of the bench... not a starter!

So what are we losing here then ? ... a bench player in Vince and a sometimes good but inconsistent backup in Jalen. Throw in the idea of the expiring contracts and we are suddenly in a very good place.

So now, what are we getting in return. Two or three decent players who bring some consistency and effort to their games. That's it ... not superstars per se ... but some guys who are going to bring on the energy and some work ethic.

Remember the lesson we had with the NBA finals last year... you don't have to have an excessive amount of talent on your side to win. But you do have to have consistent and solid effort from all your guys when crunch time comes. And where was Vince in the last few games during crunch time ? Warming up the damn bench !! Not where a marquis player is supposed to be by any stretch of the imagination.... AND why was he there ??? Cause the team actually plays better with him not there... its simple.


No one really wants to see the kid leave ....but we can't allow or stomach a less than lackluster performance and higly questionable commitment either.


AND ... I'll tell you all what Rob saw that I also saw last night. Kenyon Martin taking it to the basket, falling back on Bosh and Vince, who looked very apologetic and already into his 'I'm sorry speech' when Kenyon pushed him away like a stumped up chump !! Tossed his sorry butt aside like he was a first year rook .. DISGUSTING! ... I expected VC to step it up after that and show KM what he was made of ... instead we saw VC by the commentator's table looking like he was ready to cry.


If THAT didn't spark VC into action ... nothing wil
... and our hero is dead folks. It hurts me too ..but its over. 


No hating going on here... but its time to call it quits and move on.

Bring on the newbies !!! And lets get the wheels back on.


Oz


----------



## TRON

I just thought about how similar last years Phoenix deal was to this proposed deal...so let's compare the two

Phoenix looked like theives...basically replacing Marbury and Penny with Nash and Q, but will be paying Nash a **** load of money when he is in mid-30's....so for now it was a great move and they do look great, but Nash has got to slow down eventually?

Toronto doesn't look as bad as Phoenix last year as we would be getting back some expiring talent, but how about the F.A market next year...that has to be the biggest factor in all of this, because the whole salary cap proposal in based on the mad offers to F.A that we would be pursuing in the off season

people have been mentioning...Ray "max" Allen, Big Z ect
considering the money they will be getting, ouch!

2006 will be better so, why not wait a year, how can it hurt T.O


----------



## butr

If it goes NVE and SAR, I would compare this deal to the SAR, Ratliff - Rasheed et al deal, in terms of value.

All Atlanta got was capspace directly from that deal. Who knows maybe we can flip either guy like ATL did with Detroit.


----------



## TRON

> Originally posted by *ozzymandius !*
> The past nine games have shown one thing ... This team can easily play without him and he's now nothing but a bench player. He should be coming of the bench... not a starter!


how 9 games changes everthing...personally I think the bench has overachieved and VC has underachieved causing the situation to be skewed dramatically. Vince is not a bench player, but is currently playing like one, does that mean he will forever be, I don't think so

He is one of the few go-to guys that can produce in the clutch, as shown last week with a game winning 3-pointer against Portland, that has got to be worth something in the NBA


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> 
> 
> If we get Shareef, NVE.. plus we have Marshalls expiring deal.. I'm pretty sure thats around 30 million + right now..
> 
> We could sign two max players if im not mistaken.


 Toronto is actually above the cap. So if they remove this and are left with ~$20 million on the books it's approximately 22-24 million in space (43-44 mil cap).


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>TRON</b>!
> People on this board are seriously undervaluing VC because of his most recent lackidasical efforts...I like getting Jalen's contract off the books, but this trade, even with NVE included seems a little one sided
> 
> Portland
> Pg-Damon
> Sg-VC
> Sf- Jalen
> pf- Zach Randolf
> C- Ratliff
> 
> 
> I understand the implications of salary cap space, but with the way players are getting overpaid these days, wouldn't we be trading an overpaid player now for an a future player that we can then overpay...If we are into a salary cap dump, can we atleast find something currently more servicable
> 
> screw this trade, let VC rot till he can he increase his trade value...I know it was like a year ago but talks of an AI/VC trade was concievable a year ago, and now all he is, is a combined salary cap dump, I think we can do better, I hope Babcock can be patient because we can prolly do this trade anytime B4 the trading deadline so let's see if Vince can snag us a Center(Ratliff) or some much needed size


this man speaks the truth


----------



## ozzzymandius

> Originally posted by <b>TRON</b>!
> 
> 
> how 9 games changes everthing...personally I think the bench has overachieved and VC has underachieved causing the situation to be skewed dramatically.



My point exactly ... he has been woefully underachieving ....and like the coach says, 'Those who play well deserve to play' hnce why he found himself on the bench while the bench players were on the court during clucth time. 

The point here now is that Vince has become a one dimensional player. Even when he has clear paths to the basket, he's still taking jump shots. If he was a Dell Curry i would be fine, but he's not. Despite the winning three his stats on the jumpers are just horrible. And being one dimensional means everyone knows exactly what you're going to do and how to stop it. And you'll end up getting 16 points on the night.


I'd love to hang with him too, but his production is seriously bad in light of what we know he can do.


----------



## -inVINCEible-

if portland would give him up, id definitely take a chance on darius miles

a) prolly has some untapped potential
b) can put asses in the seats


----------



## mook

I'm surprised at how unenthusiastic Raptors fans are at the prospect of starting SAR at small forward. 

you do realize he's started all season for Portland at that position, and is averaging 15 points, 7 boards and 52% shooting in just 32 minutes a game. those are all better numbers than Rose is averaging this year. 

if we had any kind of guards playing next to Zach/Theo/SAR, we'd probably have no more than two losses this season. 

if he can do this playing next to Zach, why can't he do this next to Bosh?


----------



## :TorontoRaptors:

> Originally posted by <b>theWanker</b>!
> I'm surprised at how unenthusiastic Raptors fans are at the prospect of starting SAR at small forward.
> 
> you do realize he's started all season for Portland at that position, and is averaging 15 points, 7 boards and 52% shooting in just 32 minutes a game. those are all better numbers than Rose is averaging this year.
> 
> if we had any kind of guards playing next to Zach/Theo/SAR, we'd probably have no more than two losses this season.
> 
> if he can do this playing next to Zach, why can't he do this next to Bosh?


It's not that we're unenthusiastic about getting Reef, it's more like we're enthusiastic about seeing VC go.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

PLEASE let us get at least 2 prospects out of this deal. CMON BABCOCK!

Starting Reef at the 3 would be great for this team, helping so much in the rebounding department and giving us a second scorer in the low post (that works well with Bosh's perimeter game). Reef's all business and is dying to get the playoffs. I'm not really but he'll have his chance. Starting him at power forward would be ludicrous. He'd also be great coming off the bench. 

I think Vince is going to be money with the Blazers. They're in win now mode and will be trying their best to get Jason Kidd (for Damon and Telfair I would think). Vince needs to be in the right situation at this point in his career, that much he's made obvious. He'll be taking over games and will have Portland in the playoffs if this/these trades go through.


----------



## HOWIE

*Portland's other basketball team lost.*

Ouch, wrong thread!


----------



## pspot

Now i just heard on the fan that a deal for VC for SAR is option 1 and the larger deal including Rose is on the back burner
as much as i dont want to see Rose go, and the Raps would really struggle losing both VC and Rose, the only chance you are going to have to dump Roses salary is bundled with trading Vince, so its really now or never. and from what i understand, if trade Vince and not Rose you really arnt creating that much cap room and that raps wont be able to sign any big name FA. 

So i guess im trying to say you need to go with the second deal, but I really hope its not this one, maybe other teams will panic and we can get some other serious offers.


----------



## Theberge43

Link

The Toronto Star is reposrting that also
SAR makes more than Vince, so the Raps would need to add another contract ... 
They talk about adding AW but his salary is more than the difference between Vince and SAR .... so the TB would have to add othe players too ... 

I really think that for the trade to make sense for TOR, we need to dump Rose contract also, but it might block the trade ... 

NE ways we'll see


----------



## CrookedJ

> Originally posted by <b>pspot</b>!
> Now i just heard on the fan that a deal for VC for SAR is option 1 and the larger deal including Rose is on the back burner
> as much as i dont want to see Rose go, and the Raps would really struggle losing both VC and Rose, the only chance you are going to have to dump Roses salary is bundled with trading Vince, so its really now or never. and from what i understand, if trade Vince and not Rose you really arnt creating that much cap room and that raps wont be able to sign any big name FA.
> 
> So i guess im trying to say you need to go with the second deal, but I really hope its not this one, maybe other teams will panic and we can get some other serious offers.


Interesting, I was started to wonder if its goingto happen at all. Its just rare that a deal "breaks" and then gets talked about for 12 hours without happening, or teams announcing a press conference.

I would prefer to keep Jalen - we'd still have significant cap space next year - SAR/Marshall expiring, and we 'd still be competetive.


----------



## Theberge43

We won't have cap space is we don't trade Jalen ... we are well over it right now ... 

We would lose 18 $ at the end of the year from Marshall and SAR .... 

Probably enough to get what ? 5-6 millions under ?


----------



## Junkyard Dog13

my propsal

Toronto sends
Carter
Rose

Recieves 
Abdur-Rahim
Anderson
Van Excel
Carlisle

Vladimir Stepania is another young C we already have one in Arauja, and we claimed him off waivers in the begining of the 2000 camp and he did not make the team and looking at his numbers he has not done much Carlisle seems like a good prospect, Stephanie has been in the leauge for 6 years not a prospect, I personally dont think we need him.

I think at the moment this is a decent deal for us, Babs should of pulled the Allen deal in the summer but its to late for that VC would have to go on a monstor hot streak to get his value equivalent to Allen's and I dont it will happen he is not taking advantage of Mitchell's up tempo offence one would think being the most athletixc player he would drive/dunk often but eithier A) he has committed himself asa perimter player b/c he fears driving due to contact or B he is being a stubborn a$$ and not doing anything good for the team b/c management did'nt get on thier knee's and suck his Coc^ in the summer during the GM, Head Coach search.

new lineup
PG Alston
SG Anderson
SM Abdur-rahim
PF Bosh
C Woods

Bench rotation
Peterson
Van Excel
Marshell (when healthy)
Moiso
Carlisle
Arauja
Mason/Palacio

Good question will be who will mitchell run isolation plays in crunch time in the 4th qtr A.A.R has been noturious for fading in the 4th qtr I think between Anderson/Van excel/Peterson if this deal goes through.


----------



## pspot

The only way the Raps take Anderson is if Port takes Rose and AW, otherwise it really doesnt do anything for us, cap space wise


----------



## lucky777s

This trade is all about Rose and VanExel.

If those two are involved its a good deal for Toronto. Good for this year, and good for our future.

If Rose doesn't go (or more accurately his contract) OR we take DerekAnderson back instead of VanEx then the deal is bad.

Letting POR get their way in subbing DA for Nick should mean Toronto gets one of their young prospects (Woods, Outlaw, Monya, Khryapa) or a draft pick. Or they take Alvin as well for RPatterson or something.

No Jalen, no trade.

No picks or prospects, no DerekAnderson.


----------



## CrookedJ

> Originally posted by <b>Theberge43</b>!
> We won't have cap space is we don't trade Jalen ... we are well over it right now ...
> 
> We would lose 18 $ at the end of the year from Marshall and SAR ....
> 
> Probably enough to get what ? 5-6 millions under ?


Thats right I forgot how much over the cap we were- I was just looking at the salary being removed.


----------



## Zuca

In my opinion, if this trade happens (I don't like it, I think it's better to trade Carter for Ray Allen), maybe Philadelphia will try to trade Big Dog with a draft pick to TO for Abdur-Rahim (cuz he is a PF, and Robinson is a SF)


----------



## speedythief

> Originally posted by <b>Zuca</b>!
> In my opinion, if this trade happens (I don't like it, I think it's better to trade Carter for Ray Allen), maybe Philadelphia will try to trade Big Dog with a draft pick to TO for Abdur-Rahim (cuz he is a PF, and Robinson is a SF)


That is a good follow-up trade. We don't need a PF, they don't need an SF. It makes a lot of sense for both sides.

We could send the pick we owe to Charlotte and still keep a first-round choice.

Then we'd have a lottery pick and big cap space next summer. Upgrade time!


----------



## CrookedJ

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> 
> 
> That is a good follow-up trade. We don't need a PF, they don't need an SF. It makes a lot of sense for both sides.
> 
> We could send the pick we owe to Charlotte and still keep a first-round choice.
> 
> Then we'd have a lottery pick and big cap space next summer. Upgrade time!


A few thing' bout that . . .
I've heard NO is looking at making a trade for Big Dog.

Why do we owe a pick to Charlotte - is that the cleveland pick that we owe that got moved or is it a different one.

If we're doing that, Which I would be OK with, we should move Yell at the dealine for a prospect or a first rounder.


----------



## speedythief

> Originally posted by <b>CrookedJ</b>!
> A few thing' bout that . . .
> I've heard NO is looking at making a trade for Big Dog.
> 
> Why do we owe a pick to Charlotte - is that the cleveland pick that we owe that got moved or is it a different one.
> 
> If we're doing that, Which I would be OK with, we should move Yell at the dealine for a prospect or a first rounder.


Charlotte via Cleveland, the pick was transferred but the protection remains.

As for NO looking at the Dog, they need a scorer, not just a swing. We could potentially look to send them Marshall.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>Zuca</b>!
> In my opinion, if this trade happens (I don't like it, I think it's better to trade Carter for Ray Allen), maybe Philadelphia will try to trade Big Dog with a draft pick to TO for Abdur-Rahim (cuz he is a PF, and Robinson is a SF)


Big Dog is getting no time right now for good reason. If you do this deal, you have to keep Jalen. That's the point of the Portland deal, get out from under his deal.

Can you imagine the D?

Jalen AND Big Dog


----------



## Playmaker0017

> Originally posted by <b>jcintosun911</b>!
> There is no way Bosh will play center this season. This year he has finally been putting some points on the board, and who knows, maybe he can end up averaging 16 or 17 PPG at the 4. He won't be able to do that playing center, even in the Eastern Conference.


Who cares if he averages 16-17 points? It's about winning. 

You put the best lineup on the floor. Reef can get 20-26 per night if given the shots. I like TOs new coach and I think he can get Reef/Bosh shots in the post. 

You plug Reef in at PF and Bosh in at SF (as weird as that is) and anyone at C. 

You have a long front court. 

You have specific calls to get Bosh the ball on the post 10+ times a game. But, with this trade, the only legit scorer this team will have is Shareef. Make no mistake about it.

The shot distribution would look something like this:
Alston - 10-12
SG (either Rose or DA, depending on which trade) - 10-12
Bosh - 12-14
Reef - 16-18
Center - 3-6

Whether or not Bosh is the future of the franchise (I don't see it, but regardless) he isn't ready to shoulder the offensive burden. Reef is a FAR more accomplished scorer. You have to play him.

Play.


----------



## Playmaker0017

> Originally posted by <b>crimsonice</b>!
> plus it was be good to see Vince and AI on the same team. Damn.. that would be great.


That would be one of the worst teams EVER assembled. 

Have you watched the olympics? Egos don't mesh well together. Two "me-first" players ... that would be disgusting.

Play.


----------



## Playmaker0017

> Originally posted by <b>ballocks</b>!
> i've never been a fan of knee-jerk reactions and thus i'm not really a fan of this rumour. i don't necessarily even care who's coming in from portland- this is not the time to move vince carter.


VC is considered a bit of a pariah. He's constantly having reasons for not playing up to his level and he's a bit of a primadonna (to say it kindly). 

That already brought his trade value down. Heck, look at the big name players this past year -- no one could really unload them for anything of worth. 

These, so-called superstars are ESPN-made superstars. Their popular and fill a building but they don't do much to make their teammates better. Back in the day, you made a trade for Jordan or any of the big names - and they made the TEAM better. These new-age superstars don't seem to have that potential. 

I don't see his value going up ... even if he catches fire. Who are you REALLY going to get?

Play.


----------



## RP McMurphy

> Originally posted by <b>Playmaker0017</b>!
> Who cares if he averages 16-17 points? It's about winning.
> 
> You put the best lineup on the floor. Reef can get 20-26 per night if given the shots. I like TOs new coach and I think he can get Reef/Bosh shots in the post.
> 
> You plug Reef in at PF and Bosh in at SF (as weird as that is) and anyone at C.


That is not putting the best lineup on the floor. If you are a team like Toronto that has no center, you have two choices. Either you can waste your minutes on a worthless player like Loren Woods or Rafael Araujo, or you can play small ball. I can't imagine any scenario where you'd rather have the terrible Woods on the floor than Donyell Marshall.


----------



## Apollo

> Originally posted by <b>Playmaker0017</b>!
> 
> 
> That would be one of the worst teams EVER assembled.
> 
> Have you watched the olympics? Egos don't mesh well together. Two "me-first" players ... that would be disgusting.
> 
> Play.


Did you watch any of the All-Star games where Iverson and Vince played together? Or when they played together on the qualifying team? There's just as much chance of them being amazing as there is of them not playing well together...all anyone knows is that the few times they've played together, they've been good...

Frankly, I think Vince would be a perfect 2 man to any other superstar, especially one like AI who actually drives the basket...it's all speculation anyways.


----------



## ozzzymandius

*The biggest clue yet !!*

The Raptors have always had a staunch supporter and practically their biggest apologist ever in Chuck Swirsky (sp?) ... This guys loves everybody associated with the Raps ..including VC ... and has always stood behind the underperformer.

So all of a sudden I'm getting a VERY different vibe from the Swirsk on his daily broadcast on the FAN ... all of a sudden he's PRO trade !! Says he's a Raptor fan first and foremost ... and so if VC has to go ....he has to go !!

That's a stunner of a position and a huge turnaround coming from the Swirsk (he'd never admit to that, but it is) So all that makes me say ...hmmmm ... he must have some insight on what's going on here ... I'm thinking VC should be gone by the end of next week at the latest!!!


----------



## Playmaker0017

> Originally posted by <b>RP McMurphy</b>!
> That is not putting the best lineup on the floor.


Then what is?

I'm not saying any of the centers are worth a grain of salt. In fact, I'd even move Bosh to center - since the only centers worth a dang are Shaq, Big Z and Yao. Bosh can hold his own with the rest.

You get Reef on the floor - no question. This team doesn't have any consistant scorer outside of Reef. Marshall is okay, but hardly consistant. Unless you are talking about getting Marshall minutes at the C, which would be scary.

Play.


----------



## Playmaker0017

> Originally posted by <b>Apollo</b>!
> Did you watch any of the All-Star games where Iverson and Vince played together?


Did you just offer up a performance at an All-Star game as proof of anything?

The all-star game is a JOKE. 



> There's just as much chance of them being amazing as there is of them not playing well together...


Except that on every team Iverson has been on that had any other scorer ... things have been AWFUL.



> Frankly, I think Vince would be a perfect 2 man to any other superstar, especially one like AI who actually drives the basket...it's all speculation anyways.


If only AI were a real superstar and not just some ESPN created hype kid #1. He's actually a terrible basketball player. He shoots a terrible percentage and his teammates are all but left out in the dark. His team used to win because they had Iverson and a BUNCH of roleplayers. Carter is hardly a roleplayer.

Play.


----------



## RP McMurphy

> Originally posted by <b>Playmaker0017</b>!
> Then what is?


Read my post on Page 2 of this thread.



> I'm not saying any of the centers are worth a grain of salt. In fact, I'd even move Bosh to center - since the only centers worth a dang are Shaq, Big Z and Yao. Bosh can hold his own with the rest.


Exactly, putting Bosh at center is what I mean by small ball. Small ball isn't the worst thing in the world when teams like Phoenix and Seattle are using it and are at the top of the standings right now. It's a much better idea than giving major minutes to a scrub, just because he's tall.


----------



## Playmaker0017

> Originally posted by <b>RP McMurphy</b>!
> Read my post on Page 2 of this thread.


I would definitely think this lineup has potential. 

What I don't understand is the people who honestly think Reef should come off the bench. This team doesn't have a legit scorer like Portland did when they got Reef. 

The others I don't get are the one's that call Reef a "role player". After the trade, it wouldn't even be close - Reef would be the most talented player on the Raps. 

I said that about Portland too - and I still believe it. 



> Exactly, putting Bosh at center is what I mean by small ball. Small ball isn't the worst thing in the world when teams like Phoenix and Seattle are using it and are at the top of the standings right now. It's a much better idea than giving major minutes to a scrub, just because he's tall.


The good thing is that Bosh seems like a team player. He seems like a kind of guy that would be willing to shift over if a better player came along. He seems very unselfish.

Play.


----------



## CrookedJ

> Originally posted by <b>RP McMurphy</b>!
> 
> 
> Read my post on Page 2 of this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, putting Bosh at center is what I mean by small ball. Small ball isn't the worst thing in the world when teams like Phoenix and Seattle are using it and are at the top of the standings right now. It's a much better idea than giving major minutes to a scrub, just because he's tall.


Woods / Moiso / Aruajo haven't been getting a ton of minutes anyway. They start Woods, but he's usually out of the game for Marshall or Bonner ( with Yell on the IR) within 6 minutes or so. 
Marshall has been getting about 23 MPG while Woods gets 18 even though he's starting. Woods is basically getting a ew minutes to see if he's on, if he is his played well, of not he usually picks up a couple quick fouls and sits down for along time.

I think they would start Woods/Bosh/SAR at the 5/4/3 and then sub in Marshall or Moiso for Woods early and Bosh plays five for a bit until he needs a break. They have had stretches with Bonner/Marshall at the 4/5 and they were OK - really stretches the D.

Raps fans are already OK with Bosh at C sometimes, its just starting him at C against people that outweigh him by 40 -60 pounds every night takes its toll, even if he is more skilled than they are.


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## Theberge43

Link

I got that on ESPN from Mark Stein 


> It's up to Portland, sources indicate, whether to accept or reject Toronto's offer of Vince Carter and Jalen Rose (and parts) for Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Derek Anderson and Vladimir Stepania. But the same sources say that the Blazers aren't interested in Rose. Portland's preference is dealing Abdur-Rahim and a future draft pick for Vinsanity. . . .


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## whiterhino

> Originally posted by <b>Theberge43</b>!
> Link
> 
> I got that on ESPN from Mark Stein


If you don't get Sergei Monya, Viktor Khryapa, or Travis Outlaw from this deal then this was very stupid for the Raps...if you are going to get rid of Vince you are in rebuilding mode, if you are in rebuilding mode you grab good young talent...one of those 3 is a nice grab.


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## TRON

Looks like the trade talks will prolly fizzle out unless a third team can be involved...Portland doesn't want Rose's contract and Tor is adament about him being involved in a deal involving VC

I hated this deal anyway so I'm happy

Babcock better be working the phone to see if New Orleans wants in, he should do whatever he's got to do to get Magloire in a Raps uni


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## pspot

you know the deal is dead when we start getting into proposed deals that work
so ill start it off

New Orleans trades: Jamal Mashburn (No games yet played in 2004/05) 
C Jamaal Magloire (13.0 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 1.7 apg in 31.6 minutes) 
PG Darrell Armstrong (9.6 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 4.0 apg in 24.1 minutes) 
New Orleans receives: Vladimir Stepania (No games yet played in 2004/05) 
PF Shareef Abdur-Rahim (15.1 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 0.9 apg in 32.6 minutes) 
Qyntel Woods (No games yet played in 2004/05) 
Change in team outlook: -7.5 ppg, -5.2 rpg, and -4.8 apg. 

Portland trades: Vladimir Stepania (No games yet played in 2004/05) 
PF Shareef Abdur-Rahim (15.1 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 0.9 apg in 32.6 minutes) 
Qyntel Woods (No games yet played in 2004/05) 
Portland receives: PG Milt Palacio (5.2 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 2.6 apg in 15.0 minutes) 
PF Jerome Moiso (2.3 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 0.0 apg in 14.0 minutes) 
SF Vince Carter (15.0 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 3.6 apg in 30.2 minutes) 
Roger Mason (No games yet played in 2004/05) 
Change in team outlook: +7.4 ppg, +3.8 rpg, and +5.3 apg. 

Toronto trades: PG Milt Palacio (5.2 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 2.6 apg in 15.0 minutes) 
PF Jerome Moiso (2.3 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 0.0 apg in 14.0 minutes) 
SF Vince Carter (15.0 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 3.6 apg in 30.2 minutes) 
Roger Mason (No games yet played in 2004/05) 
Toronto receives: Jamal Mashburn (No games yet played in 2004/05) 
C Jamaal Magloire (13.0 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 1.7 apg in 31.6 minutes) 
PG Darrell Armstrong (9.6 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 4.0 apg in 24.1 minutes) 
Change in team outlook: +0.1 ppg, +1.4 rpg, and -0.5 apg. 

TRADE ACCEPTED


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## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>whiterhino</b>!
> 
> 
> If you don't get Sergei Monya, Viktor Khryapa, or Travis Outlaw from this deal then this was very stupid for the Raps...if you are going to get rid of Vince you are in rebuilding mode, if you are in rebuilding mode you grab good young talent...one of those 3 is a nice grab.


That's the fight right now. It seems like Babcock is struggling to get these prospects AND NVE for Jalen. With VC for Reef and no Jalen, I would expect 2 prospects in the deal. I want Outlaw and Monya. Mitchell's system is based around depth and that isn't usually obtained all too easily on the free agent market, you want players on their rookie contracts.


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