# Skiles must go.



## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

I've had it.

I'm not going to elaborate, but anyone who was at the United Center and payed attention to Skiles and his "coaching" technique can probably follow me.

The fact that the 4th quarter was Hinrich, Pargo, Jeffries, Dupree and Johnson did not help matters. You cannot play those five for an entire quarter and hope to get back into the game.

Skiles cannot handle this job and it was painfully obvious last night. He had no interest in the game. He should have been booed out of the stadium. 

That said, I will not purchase another ticket or buy any more merchandise until Skiles is no longer a member of this organization.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

So are you saying that if Skiles turned it around next year and the Bulls actually snuck into the playoffs, you still would be on your boycott? 

Come on, I know you're pissed, but no need to count yourself out for the future.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Please elaborate.


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## Kramer (Jul 5, 2002)

I think we've gone through enough coaches to see where the blame really belongs. Our starters are the ones who let the pathetic Hawks get a huge lead on us. Our lineup should be able to compete every night whether our coach is Phil Jackson or the blow-up pilot from airplane. Skiles should stay... trade the players who can't compete hard every night.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Every team that has been good of late with the possible exception of the Spurs has rehabbed a guy that has been trouble.

Lakers - Horry (threw towel at Ainge)
Kings - Webber
Dallas - NVE

And these type of teams built up the trade value of other troubled players till they could get equal or better value such as the Kings and Jason Williams.

Given that we will have the least talented squad in the NBA if you truly only consider Curry and Hinrich to be core and assuming we miss on Okafor, Paxson and Skiles are going to have to figure out a way to create some value.

I sure don't see it so far.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> So are you saying that if Skiles turned it around next year and the Bulls actually snuck into the playoffs, you still would be on your boycott?
> 
> Come on, I know you're pissed, but no need to count yourself out for the future.


I do not see a future as long as Scott Skiles is coaching this team. I do not feel as if Skiles has what it takes to be a successful NBA head coach.

1) Poor game managment - I was absolutely dumbfounded by his lack of energy. On top of that, when we cut the lead in the 3rd and also when they went on runs, Skiles sat on his hands when he could have stopped the bleeding.

2) Poor substitution patterns - The 4th quarter lineup had me silent. I sat on my hands the entire 4th, which was especially troublesome after we cut the lead in half in the 3rd. 

3) Poor people skills - This is just my guess, but I don't think he works well with others. I didn't see him off the bench but a couple of times for timeouts. He didn't jockey the refs, he didn't interact with the players, he just "sat" there whereas Terry Stotts was all over the place.

I just can't, in good faith, continue attending Bull games and buying merchandise when the organization has committed to whom I consider a waste for a coach. 

At first, I thought he would be a good coach because of his brief stint in Phoenix, but I now fully realize that he had that good season because of the players he had, not because of himself.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kramer</b>!
> I think we've gone through enough coaches to see where the blame really belongs. Our starters are the ones who let the pathetic Hawks get a huge lead on us. Our lineup should be able to compete every night whether our coach is Phil Jackson or the blow-up pilot from airplane. Skiles should stay... trade the players who can't compete hard every night.


Skiles is the wrong coach for this squad. He is a "disciplanarian," or at least he claims to be as I didn't see him interact with ANY of the players last night. 

What this team needs is a student of the game who can teach and instruct them. This is not Scott Skiles. Our team is just too young and too green for him to handle, but they are DEFINITELY a talented bunch. 

The Hawks got the lead because they were absolutely ON FIRE during the entire first half. I believe they had to easily be shooting 60-70% in the first quarter and were at 56% at halftime, according to the scoreboard. I didn't matter what they threw up, who was guarding them or where they were at on the floor, it just went in. 

Our team also was playing hard in the first half, aside from Jamal. He just didn't seem into the game and didn't really come around until the 3rd quarter when we made our run. Benching Curry for the entire 4th and AD for most of the 3rd and the 4th just flabbergasted me, especially since they had no answer for either.


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

Enough with this crap of blaming our coaches for the failures of Curry, Chandler, Crawford and co. I mean, we wouldnt be in the Playoffs with Phil Jackson or Sloan for that matter. 
And dont forget that Skiles didnt have a preseason camp with this Bulls. I think he did a good job overall. 
So Chandler "wasted" this past offseason because of Skiles? Skiles gave Pippen the MLE instead of signing Posey?


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> Every team that has been good of late with the possible exception of the Spurs has rehabbed a guy that has been trouble.
> 
> Lakers - Horry (threw towel at Ainge)
> ...


I agree with this, but his personal dislike of players will probably never let this happen. 

Last night, Eddie Robinson could have matched up with Stephen Jackson or Chris Crawford much more favorably then Lint, Dupree and Jeffries. He should have been on the floor. Fizer should have also seen time against a very height challenged Hawks team... that is exactly the kind of team Fizer could have scored 30 on.


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree with this, but his personal dislike of players will probably never let this happen.
> ...


And do you know why Fizer and E-Rob arent getting playing time?


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 
> I do not see a future as long as Scott Skiles is coaching this team. I do not feel as if Skiles has what it takes to be a successful NBA head coach.
> ...


pretty grim take on the situation retro. step away from the ledge. 

i did see him giving the refs a hard time regarding a hinrich foul (of course) and while the 4th quarter line-up had me confused as well, who else could he play? jamal "i didn't feel like trying" crawford? or how about eddy "uh you mean i have to jump to get a rebound" curry? e-rob? please. fizer was sick. jyd is done. gill is done. pip never was this season. 

he doesn't have the players. the only guy who tries hard is a rookie. what do you expect. there are three games left. thank GOD. 

you know, skiles was quoted in the press before the game saying he would hope the team would show up and be professionals and actually make an effort. but they didn't. so what is he supposed to do? run along the sidelines like a freakin' lunatic crazy man screaming and yelling at them? i think not. 

give him the off-season and the player moves that will happen this summer, a full training camp and _then_ you can call for his head on a platter, or a stick, or a pitchfork, or whatever serving device you so desire. 

just my 3 cents.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> 
> 
> And do you know why Fizer and E-Rob arent getting playing time?


It doesn't matter. There is no reason they should not be playing... I don't care if they talked smack about Skiles mama. If Pargo, who doesn't play defense, can play extended minutes, they should get on the floor as well.


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter. There is no reason they should not be playing... I don't care if they talked smack about Skiles mama. If Pargo, who doesn't play defense, can play extended minutes, they should get on the floor as well.


It does matter. There is a reason. Its not like Skiles says "I want to lose, so its on the Bulls best interest to sit Fizer and E-Rob".


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter. There is no reason they should not be playing... I don't care if they talked smack about Skiles mama. If Pargo, who doesn't play defense, can play extended minutes, they should get on the floor as well.


well e-rob sure looked to be having a giggle when he walked behind coach myers as gail the sideline reporter was interviewing him on live tv and e-rob flashed the peace sign over his head. what a complete tool.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> 
> 
> pretty grim take on the situation retro. step away from the ledge.
> ...


Curry played hard last night. He was helping on defense, cutting off the lane and rebounded when the ball was in his area. I watched his movements last night and he was picking and rolling hard and setting down screens.

He had a couple defensive mental lapses, but nothing major. When he was in the game, the Hawks kept the game on the perimeter. When they didn't, he made them pay a couple times including that nasty block on Bobby Sura. There were also a couple times when he was a second too late on getting over on the help but if anyone needs a finger there, it is the Golden Boy.

On offense, Eddy was unstoppable. He got the ball in the paint and went hard to the hoop. When he didn't get it down low, he bullied his way to the hoop and got the foul a couple of times as well. When he was our only post presence, you don't sit him, especially when he was 7-11 from the field. 

Jamal, like I said, was MIA in the 1st quarter. Didn't get any burn in the 2nd or 4th and in the 3rd he was very active. Skiles didn't give him a chance to succeed there. When he did finally get hot and started distributing the ball in the 3rd, Skiles pulled him. What in the....

That moves me on to the Golden Boy, Kirk Hinrich. Sure, he had 29 points last night but his defense was ABSOLUTELY ATTROCIOUS. He got beat so many times on defense, I quit counting at 7 in the first half. I was so disturbed, I started downing jalepeno peppers like they were going out of style.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> 
> well e-rob sure looked to be having a giggle when he walked behind coach myers as gail the sideline reporter was interviewing him on live tv and e-rob flashed the peace sign over his head. what a complete tool.


I'd be doing the same thing. He's collecting his money, so why be down on the situation. I'd also trying to do everything I could to get out of this hellhole too.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> 
> 
> pretty grim take on the situation retro. step away from the ledge.
> ...


You run with what you have until you can add to your team. At least that's what I think. As coach, you don't sit around waiting for the "ideal" players to come to your team cause they won't (especially when your team loses a lot). You try and create a united force (Especially when your team has no overriding talent to take control).

Skiles' style of coaching opens itself for this resistance by players. He's got double standards that he doesn't acknowledge. He highlights divisions and consistencies. When you're a team, I think it's in the best interest to hide those inconsistencies and come together as a team.

This is Kirk's rookie season, and from the get-go he's been enthusiastic about it. He's also been singled out and positively reinforced by our coach throughout the season. It may be true that he's the only one doing any and everything, but all that does is create a division between "Kirk" and "other." How does that unify the team ?


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Gee, Corie Blount might have helped out last night.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>E L D R U H M A I</b>!
> 
> You run with what you have until you can add to your team. At least that's what I think. As coach, you don't sit around waiting for the "ideal" players to come to your team cause they won't (especially when your team loses a lot). You try and create a united force (Especially when your team has no overriding talent to take control).
> 
> ...


Excellent points here.

Skiles also puts Kirk up on a pedistal when he has the same issues (namely defense and poor decision making) as everyone else on the team. Kirk didn't sit last night when he made mistakes, so why did everyone else?


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> Gee, Corie Blount might have helped out last night.


Nah, but Antonio Davis and Eddy Curry would have.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

*All I have to say is...*

Join the Club (tm)

ditto everything RetroDreams had to say.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I belong in both clubs. 

I think Retro and Johnson's points are very well taken. 

This was one of those games... and I've seen a few now, where it looks like Skiles has called it in as much as anyone else.

And I totally agree with Johnson's remark. At this point, can anyone imagine us taking a troubled player and "turning him around"? It happens all the time in reality, and what it tells me is that coaches have to figure out how to motivate their players.

In the more tangible elements in the game, you need to have a system that can fit the players' talents, and there's always some trade-offs to be made. Do you make the change the system to fit the players or the players to fit the system?

In reality, of course, the answer depends on who you're talking about. How good are the players, how far are they from the system. How much derivation can the system tolerate?

Some systems are very good (perhaps better than others) if you've got the right guys, but are very hard to run with the wrong guys.

I bring all of this up because I think it's also true of dealing with players off the court. A thought process on how coaches and players should interact is a system too. And with the Bulls, I what I see is a very inflexible system taking hold. It will work probably quite well if you can fill it up with players that are on the same page with it, but those players are very hard to come by and the system doesn't appear to make very good allowances for any deviations.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> 
> 
> pretty grim take on the situation retro. step away from the ledge.
> ...


Does he not have the players ?Or do players just not want to play for him ? :whofarted 

It seems to me part of the problem is that its gone from hey Skiles is trying to win games and hes gonna teach us something to hey Skiles is playing lineups everyone knows cant win and now is handing out punishments. :no: 

All of Skiles comments to the media has been heading him and his team to this exact point .The moment where you realize he is full of BS.The very fact that Erob is not playing and Fizer has sat for really no reason and then come in and played well when he was forced into the lineup.

A real coach would have never let the Erob situation get this far or try proving points with nbdl players when its a players league .Its one thing to sit them for vets who have accomplished something but when youre trying to prove a point by using guys who are only in the league because of you it will backfire .

I dont blame Pax and Skiles for everything. The players have a part in this mess as well but Skiles and pax's motto shouldve been to Ill do whatever it takes to win and I expect you to do the same .Instead we have some scandal involving rumored scuffles,missed deadlines,nbdl players ,and a team that never actually loses it just doesnt play hard .


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 1) Poor game managment - I was absolutely dumbfounded by his lack of energy.


Maybe he's focusing on being more of a players coach.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> Kirk didn't sit last night when he made mistakes, so why did everyone else?


Because Kirk makes mistakes going full speed and giving full effort. Coachspeak, sure, but such a phrase is not a cornerstone of coachspeak for nothing.


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## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!
> Because Kirk makes mistakes going full speed and giving full effort. Coachspeak, sure, but such a phrase is not a cornerstone of coachspeak for nothing.


_
Spin, Spin, Spin, Spin.

You Spin Me Right Round Baby Right Round, Like a Record Baby....

Spin, Spin, Spin. _


A missed 3 is the same as a missed dunk or a missed pair of free throws. All result in 0 points.

Letting a guy drive past you for a dunk is the same as buying on a pump fake and giving a guy an open jumper that he nails. They result in giving the other team 2 points.

A Turnover is a Turnover. 
A Miss is a Miss.

*A mistake is a mistake, regardless of speed or effort.*


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: All I have to say is...*



> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> Join the Club (tm)
> 
> ditto everything RetroDreams had to say.


Feel free to add me to the fire Skiles club. I'll give Paxson this draft and offseason


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

When he give Skiles the players he wants and the team still sucks, THEN it's time to considering a coaching move.


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## thunderspirit (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> I've had it.
> 
> I'm not going to elaborate, but anyone who was at the United Center and payed attention to Skiles and his "coaching" technique can probably follow me.
> ...


Retro, you've put your opinion out there and pledged to stick to it. for that you deserve kudos.

but, to paraphrase Dan Ackroyd, "Retro, you ignorant misguided slut." 

Skiles and Pax have repeatedly said they want their players to play the game the right way. if you think that's all running and dunking, maybe you don't remember the championship years too clearly anymore. yeah, those teams ran and dunked, but they also played defense like a pack of wolves and cared -- passionately -- about winning the game. 

what Skiles is trying to get out of this group is effort and passion. when he sees it, he rewards that player with court time. when he doesn't, that player sits. it's the only weapon a coach has in the Age of the Guaranteed Contract with players who just don't give a damn...like E-Rob, for starters.

the rules are very simple under Skiles: you play hard, you play. you don't play hard, you sit. that's why KH is a "teacher's pet" and why E-Rob is public enema #1.

when all JC wants to do is shoot, Skiles sits him because he shows no passion for any other part of the game.

when EC breaks out his matador defense again, he sits.

KH (and to a lesser extent, JP) get more rope because of their experience in the league, or lack thereof. EC, JC, and the rest get less because they've been in the league long enough to know what a good shot is and isn't, and what good defense is and isn't.

or should, anyway.

kramer makes excellent points: this is coach #3 for the Cs, and they still don't bring it every night or get why they are made to sit. that tells me _it's not the coach that's the problem._

you've had it with Skiles? i've had it with our millionares who refuse to be professionals.


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## thunderspirit (Jun 25, 2002)

dp


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## MiSTa iBN (Jun 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Too bad Hubie Brown's already taken, was Fratello the choice? Boy this team sucks with any coach anyways


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Re: Skiles must go.*



> Originally posted by <b>thunderspirit</b>!
> 
> Retro, you've put your opinion out there and pledged to stick to it. for that you deserve kudos.
> 
> ...


The Bulls didn't play as good as you think for the first 5 years (or so) that Jordan was a pro. They actually ran, dunked, played little D, and stood around watching Jordan take on opposing teams 5 on 1 a LOT.

Heck, one of Jordan's early teammates was a guy named Orlano Woolrige (NO D), of all people.

The Bulls only got their reputation for D when they got Grant, BJ, and Pip and unleashed the dobermans (full court press with those young legs). And they began to really stress the D when they'd made it to the playoffs a few times, only to lose to the Pistons who did play great team D.

Peace!


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## thunderspirit (Jun 25, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Skiles must go.*



> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> The Bulls didn't play as good as you think for the first 5 years (or so) that Jordan was a pro. They actually ran, dunked, played little D, and stood around watching Jordan take on opposing teams 5 on 1 a LOT.
> ...


oh, i haven't forgotten the early Jordan years -- Woolridge, Quintin Dailey, David Green, Ennis Whatley (ENNIS freaking WHATLEY?) -- i'm actually likening this collection of players to that group.

and certainly i'm not comparing anyone here to Jordan in terms of talent. but it took a while to clear out that roster, and it'll take some time to clear out this roster. then we might have a notion as to whether Skiles is the right guy or not.

as i see it, Retro (and everyone else) can believe Skiles isn't. that's certainly his right. i simply choose to lay the blame on the same cast i've watched play the same way for three years.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> "If you're worth anything as a coach or a teacher, you better be evaluating yourself every day, every halftime," Skiles said. "What did we do? What do we need to do? It should be constant, I think, if you do it right. Even at our staff meetings every day, we're constantly evaluating what we think we may have done wrong and what we need to do better.
> 
> "I'm not demoralized by anything. I've seen signs where this could be a great situation. Right now it's not, though. The wins and losses don't lie. You can't try to cover it up. My gut [feeling] is that has been done a little too much around here [in the past]."
> 
> ...


how do ya like 'dem apples? doesn't sound like he is going anywhere. 

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...lsbits,1,7436919.story?coll=cs-home-headlines


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> 
> 
> how do ya like 'dem apples? doesn't sound like he is going anywhere.
> ...


Fire Paxon. Another GM will bring in a good coach.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

*Re: Re: Skiles must go.*



> Originally posted by <b>thunderspirit</b>!
> 
> Retro, you've put your opinion out there and pledged to stick to it. for that you deserve kudos.
> 
> ...


Very good points. 

I'm not quite ready to throw Paxson or Skiles overboard just yet. I am getting there on the three C's and the rest of the roster. 

This team needs a healthy dose of professionalism. Most of the posters seem most willing to kill the messenger (Skiles/Paxson) instead of the recipient(s) who all too often refuse delivery.

Patience Ladies and Gentleman, patience. Neither Paxson nor Skiles are going anywhere any time soon with one year and less than one year under contract.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: Re: Skiles must go.*



> Originally posted by <b>thunderspirit</b>!
> 
> Retro, you've put your opinion out there and pledged to stick to it. for that you deserve kudos.
> 
> ...


And you are entitled to your opinion... but Skiles is the slut here. 

If you want your players to respect and play balls out for you, the first thing you need to do is be fair. These double standards that Skiles has in place ruin any street cred he had. Our guys do not want to play for him, Kirk included. 

He needs to go.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*I am of the opinion that Pax was not a good hire*

and that skiles being installed is the move of a weak, impatient man who was trying to make his stamp on a franchise when it wasn't needed . But in the nba you get no where with a turnstile either on the court or in the front office so i think the bulls are stuck with both until at least the start of next season and most throughout the season. Pax made a good pick in Kirk but in all honesty look at the draft , where could he have gone wrong the next 5 picks were Ford Sweetney Hayes Pietrus and ridnour , the bulls had no need for a power player (although sweetney is looking great) but out of the other 4 could the bulls really have fared too badly , the sonics and bucks look like the have aquired 10 year mainstays at pg just like the bulls and Jarvis and Mickael are also very good players, so all the hooey about pax's great find when he was the highest rated player left and there was no way he could have messed it up unless he went for an absolute reach at pg with banks (even bell looks good in his limited min.) is just an attepmt to boost Pax in other people's eyes the test of Pax's eyes were in the 2nd round and he failed that as none of them(there were 3) made the roster on a 22 win team . I cant fault skiles completely for the bulls season because he was miscast here , you cant have a new relatively inexperienced coach come in and try to revamp things without benefit of a training camp, its a no win situation, especially with such a young team. The smart move was to not fire cartwright or if he was dead set on firing mr. bill he should have had the set to fire him around the 2003 draft , he basically sank the team right there on dec.1st . the bulls offense which was at the top of the league last year in points in the paint has to be near the bottom now even with Curry down there . To me it seems skiles just doesn't know how to run a low post game , he knows how to run one as a pg and that isn't what this team needs and it shows woth the product we are forced to bear and if next nov. the offense is still running through Kirk instead of Curry on x-mas eve, Pax and skiles should be executed on the bulls logo at center court. 

enough of this rant you all get the point .


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

God, grant them the serenity to accept the things they cannot change, the courage to change the things that they can, and the wisdom to know the difference


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

yea, yea, serenity now , serenity now


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## dsouljah9 (Jul 9, 2002)

*OH!!! NOW I GET IT!!!*

When a team plays bad,you fire the coach despite the fact that team has gone through three coaches in three seasons. You're right,it's the coaches fault 

And after we fire Skiles and we bring in another coach and the team plays badly, we fire him too. It's not their fault that they aren't playing to their potential, it's the coaches fault.

Silly me, thanks for clarifying that for me.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: OH!!! NOW I GET IT!!!*



> Originally posted by <b>dsouljah9</b>!
> When a team plays bad,you fire the coach despite the fact that team has gone through three coaches in three seasons. You're right,it's the coaches fault
> 
> And after we fire Skiles and we bring in another coach and the team plays badly, we fire him too. It's not their fault that they aren't playing to their potential, it's the coaches fault.
> ...


The Championship Bulls went through several coaches before settling on PJax. In fact, Collins was fired after taking the Bulls to the playoffs and after having a darn good W/L record as coach.

The Lakers had Kobe and Shaq and Eddie Jones and failed to win a championship. The Lakers went through a number of coaches before PJax was hired.

If you are going to change coaches, you at least want the next coach to take the team/players to a somewhat better/higher level. The urgency to fire Skiles is exactly for this reason - he's taken them to a lower level, and to a point where Pax is likely to get rid of our talented players so he can bring in Skiles' kind of players - JYD and AD.

Some coaches don't get fired. Their teams simply play good, no matter who the players are. Sloan, for example.


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## Benny the Bull (Jul 25, 2002)

I'm willing to give Skiles the offseason and next season to see what he can do. In theory (you never know with Paxson), he will hopefully have an improved squad. I think next season will be a better evaluation of his ability as a coach, when NBDL squad isn't getting regular minutes.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

i'm sure the Bulls will follow all the demands and conditions laid out in this thread. They don't want anybody who posts on this board to bust a vein in their heads. They are getting right on this stuff fellas. You can just imagine the Bulls front office scrambling now


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> i'm sure the Bulls will follow all the demands and conditions laid out in this thread. They don't want anybody who posts on this board to bust a vein in their heads. They are getting right on this stuff fellas. You can just imagine the Bulls front office scrambling now


Right or wrong, the Bulls have not had to do anything since the season ticketholders keep renewing.

What's the date to get the deposit in for next year?

If it goes like I expect, you might be surprised where they look for anwsers the next day.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> Right or wrong, the Bulls have not had to do anything since the season ticketholders keep renewing.
> ...


they'll be a fresh group of butts in all the seats next season, and another case of playoff fever this summer. You know this.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> 
> they'll be a fresh group of butts in all the seats next season, and another case of playoff fever this summer. You know this.


Don't be so sure.

Looking around the stadium, I would say it may have been 60-70% full at the Hawks game. The last game I was at was similar as well. 

I probably spend about $1500-$2000k a year on Bulls tickets, merchandise, donations and the like. If they don't want it, that's fine with me... the Bears probably could use it.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

maybe. But that was the case last year too i think. As long as the team is choke full of "upside" and /or "hope"
They will sell the tickets, or enough tickets. I'll believe the rebellion when it happens


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> maybe. But that was the case last year too i think. As long as the team is choke full of "upside" and /or "hope"
> They will sell the tickets, or enough tickets. I'll believe the rebellion when it happens


Well, judging from the posters here at least, I don't see people too full of hope going into next year. In fact, it's the least amount of optimism I've seen yet.


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## lorgg (Dec 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 
> Skiles is the wrong coach for this squad. He is a "disciplanarian," or at least he claims to be as I didn't see him interact with ANY of the players last night.
> ...


They are all ****!
except Hinrich

lazy ****ing leeches!


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## lorgg (Dec 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, judging from the posters here at least, I don't see people too full of hope going into next year. In fact, it's the least amount of optimism I've seen yet.


Oh this team is ****....these young guys got taught well...coulda been mentored by Jordan....


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Wow think of Eddy Curry as a player that came out of high school as a sophomore last summer, dang he is a top rookie in that retrospect. Crawford comes out as a high school senior, wow better than Big Kirk aint he. Jeez, does anyone understand Krause's *genuis* plan. He picked 2 great talent player, and than a defensive stopper. These are young players that could have been coming out of their sophomore, and senior years of college if they stayed in. You take young players than you let them develop. Then the Luol Deng or Josh Smith will compliment them even more. Let the kids develop. But on a side not fire paxson for his boneheaded trades, and if it takes the 3 C's to win than we have to play them so also fire Skiles. Fire the medics that didnt find Jalen Rose's broken hand. Jalen Rose has been excellent since he sat out to let it heal. Donyell Marshall has been great 2.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

I like what we have... the core at least. They need to stay together and keep playing. They also need a better coach.

Nice lineup tonight... Skiles needs to go.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

anything you want Retro


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> anything you want Retro


Nope, if that were the case, we'd still have Elton Brand here in Chicago.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> maybe. But that was the case last year too i think. As long as the team is choke full of "upside" and /or "hope"
> They will sell the tickets, or enough tickets. I'll believe the rebellion when it happens


What team are you watching? Our hope and upside has been steadily diminishing at an astonishing rate since Paxson took the healm.

He effectivelly gutted all the hope from the team.

Baxter
Austin
Mason Jr.
We lost JWill
Drafted another point guard so that we can:
Lose Jamal
Lose Fizer

Lost Marshall and Rose for Davis and JYD...

There's nothing hopefull about the team that Paxson is putting together. It's just a bunch of no talent low level grinders.

At least Krause's approach kept us drinking the Kool-Aid.

Look at the Game threads these days. If they don't pull off a miracle in the offseason, then this team will be dead in the water on and off the court.

We could still delude ourselves when the roster was full of draft picks. Now that it's full of overpaid aged grinders and NBDLers...hope is just a memory.


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## Jim Stack (Sep 4, 2003)

good point paxson and skilles must go neither has the skills to get the job done both are inexperinced. Here is to a few more sucky years.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jim Stack</b>!
> good point paxson and skilles must go neither has the skills to get the job done both are inexperinced. Here is to a few more sucky years.


This is one of the biggest points to the whole equation. Paxson and Skiles are as inexperienced and skilled at their jobs as our players are at theirs, yet they have not once placed any blame on themselves.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 
> This is one of the biggest points to the whole equation. Paxson and Skiles are as inexperienced and skilled at their jobs as our players are at theirs, yet they have not once placed any blame on themselves.


Oh come on. I've read at least a half dozen times over the last couple of weeks where Pax is _quoted_ as taking ALL the blame for this season. Hate 'em if you want but at least be accurate in your statements.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh come on. I've read at least a half dozen times over the last couple of weeks where Pax is _quoted_ as taking ALL the blame for this season. Hate 'em if you want but at least be accurate in your statements.


And that is simply lip service.

You know what I'd like to hear... how about an apology for doing the Toronto trade. Paxson set our franchise back nicely making that deal.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 
> And that is simply lip service.
> ...


You stated he's never taken the blame for this season. He's gone on record publically and taken the entire blame for this seasons failures. Isn't that what you wanted? Now you say it's lip service. In your view it really doesn't matter what he does. You've acted as Judge, Jury and Executioner. Again, that's all well and good. I just find it interesting that you make a statement referred to above about Pax not accepting blame. It's pointed out to you that he has and then you come back with "it's lip service". Seems to me he did exactly what you wanted and it's not good enough. Now you come back with something that won't happen just to justify your position.

Your entitled to your opinions and it's obvious that you feel strongly about Pax and Skiles. Countering a statement that you yourself expressed with and off-the-cuff "it's lip service" isnt' right. I've read enough of your stuff to know that you're one sharp cookie.

Personally, my view is that everyone is to blame. Players, coaches, management. Everyone. I don't think our record would have been all that drastically different if Krause were still GM. If Carwright were coach and Rose and Marshall were still on board. We might have hit 30 wins again this season.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

Been away for a while.

Interesting exchange. My 2 cents:

- I liked the Skiles hire. I was afraid we'd pick up some old retread or another guy who had never coached in the NBA. Skiles had won some in the NBA, was still young, eats-drinks-sleeps hoops and was a different personality type than Cartwright.

- I liked Skiles early with the Bulls. He didn't coddle, stressed defense and held players accountable.

- As the season became a lost cause, I found I could relate to Skiles very well. He looked as frustrated and discouraged coaching the games as I felt watching the games.

The last point is not a compliment. It's the opposite. It's OK for me as a fan to become disgusted, throw up my hands and say, "Oh! Who gives a ****." It's not OK for the head coach to do it, and I saw some of this in Skiles, not only from his bench demeanor, but also from some of his bizarre player deployments.

I haven't given up on Skiles, but like his players, he better spend the offseason getting himself a lot tougher emotionally and mentally or I can see myself joining Retro's tar and feathers crew.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> Personally, my view is that everyone is to blame. Players, coaches, management. Everyone. I don't think our record would have been all that drastically different if Krause were still GM. If Carwright were coach and Rose and Marshall were still on board. We might have hit 30 wins again this season.


I don't see why this isn't a more common view. Why make excuses for certain people when the entire product, from top to bottom, stunk to high heaven this year?

Paxson's first year stunk. The Toronto trade didn't help us (didn't help them either, but that's irrelevant). The Pippen signing was a disaster. He didn't do anything at the trade deadline. We're stuck with no tradeable assets except for our "core". 

Skiles's tactics stunk. His offense was so plain that a basketball serf like me could tell what shot they were trying to get at the 21 mark on the shot clock. His motivational tactics wore thin after the first couple months. There isn't always consistency between his comments and his actions regarding PT and the "doghouse". The team quit on him some nights just like it quit on Bill and Floyd.

The players stunk. Blame the management all you want for their mistakes, but it's still the players that went out there and lost almost 60 times. they stunk. Jamal, talented though he is, couldn't string together more than 2 or 3 good games in a row. Curry's effort oscillated from possession to possession. chandler's an uncoordinated toothpick who is better at injuring himself on chairs than he is at shooting a jumper. Hinrich's shot was often as hot and cold as Craw's, and there were stretches, esp. early on, where he was a walking foul/turnover. AD is old and too slow to rotate defensively. JYD isn't skilled. Pip is 79 years old and seems content to steal 5mil from us next year. ERob can stick a midrange jumper but can't do anything else and apparently doesn't work hard enough to get on the court.

There's blame to go around here, fellas (and Lizzy). Is it just human nature to try to pin the failings of entire organizations (and countries) on one or two people? (Pax/Skiles for this season, Dub for 9/11)


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> You stated he's never taken the blame for this season. He's gone on record publically and taken the entire blame for this seasons failures. Isn't that what you wanted? Now you say it's lip service. In your view it really doesn't matter what he does. You've acted as Judge, Jury and Executioner. Again, that's all well and good. I just find it interesting that you make a statement referred to above about Pax not accepting blame. It's pointed out to you that he has and then you come back with "it's lip service". Seems to me he did exactly what you wanted and it's not good enough. Now you come back with something that won't happen just to justify your position.
> ...


Paxson and Skiles aren't criminals, but they are constantly on trial in the court of public opinion.

The risk of keeping Paxson as GM is that he's got the power to pull the trigger on trades. Given all his past personnel moves, and I'm talking action over rhetoric here, this is NOT a risk I want to take. If the Rose/Marshall trade, cutting of Hassell, signing of Pippen, loading the roster with NBDL caliber players, etc., are an indication of what we can expect in the future, I want NO PART OF IT. If any of our core young players are to be dealt, I want someone else besides Paxson to make the call. Paxson has devastated the roster and bound our hands with really bad players with big contracts. He's made this franchise much worse than it was when he took over.

The risk of keeping Skiles as coach is that he doesn't play our best players, whatever the Bulls call an offense isn't much of an offense, and he's going to encourage Paxson to pull the trigger on deals that will further damage the franchise. Skiles is damaging the franchise with his very management style (the invisible doghouse, etc.). I don't know why ANY NBA player would want to come here for MLE or (other FA type situation) or through trade to play for Skiles. I don't know why a player already here who might develop into something pretty good will want to stay when the FA opportunity comes.

For those who think that discipline is what the team needs, consider the evidence: the more discipline, the worse our record. It's painfully obvious that LESS discipline is the approach to try before blowing of half a decade of lotto picks for NBDL talent.

Tar and feathers? Hell no. I loved Skiles as a player. I loved Paxson as a player. They are just the wrong men for the job.

It is a matter of time before Paxson and Skiles are gone. If you think Krause (who I like only slightly better than Paxson as GM) left a mess when he left, Pax is going to leave this franchise in a very deep hole that is going to take a decade to get out of.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 
> This is one of the biggest points to the whole equation. Paxson and Skiles are as inexperienced and skilled at their jobs as our players are at theirs, yet they have not once placed any blame on themselves.


Pax has said many times that he's made mistakes.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 
> And that is simply lip service.
> ...


 

No, *really*:


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> I want NO PART OF IT.


Cya.


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## outlook1 (Mar 17, 2004)

Excuse for the interuption but I just laugh at this pic of Skiles playing in Greece. Notice that guy in white shirt in the lower left corner. Yes, it's Peja Stojakovic who was his team mate and later Skiles coached him in Greece. Maybe he could entice Peja to join him in Chicago in 2 or 3 years .


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

no matter what anyone says, Paxson and Skiles are tied at the hip. When Pax is removed as GM, and my guess is that he has a year to show something, then Skiles will be gone. Pax wont fire Skiles. Skiles might quit however, and I think he was already breaking down by seasons end. at the end of the day, Pax really screwed the pooch. And while I am no SKiles fan, I want to see what he could do with real players before sending him to pasture. Let me just add that for the GM job of the Chicago Bulls, JR, who is as much to blame as anyone, hired a guy with no experience and didnt bother even interviewing anyone else. Paxson turned around and hired a guy without even interviewing anyone else. We can blame the players all day, and they deserve a ton to, all 15 of them or whatever, but the corporate culture at the top sets the tone. And there are not enough stones being turned up there, not enough work being done, and too many people getting a free ride off of what I consider the greatest fans in the NBA.


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