# Mark Jackson Says Kobe Will Be The Greatest Ever!



## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

Mark Jackson during halftime of the Suns @ Lakers game said that Kobe will go down as the greatest basketball player ever & Pippen was beside him & took offense to that.


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## magic_bryant (Jan 11, 2004)

He still could be. 

But what I found the most hilarious thing was that Pippen was truly offended. His best friend was being attacked by Jackson and Pippen was really pissed. haha


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

I shut the TV off at halftime. What did Mark and Pip say?


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

I doubt he was too serious.


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## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

It's a great topic to debate but those half-time crew made it SO boring..


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## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

ABC/ESPN sucks balls. They made that so stupid. 

Give TNT all TV rights for the NBA, please.


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

haha that was hilarious when dan patrick said hes leaving and pippen said he was leaving too. 

i love dan patrick


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Him and Lebron will both surpass whoever you think is the greatest ever. History is now.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

dannyM said:


> It's a great topic to debate but those half-time crew made it SO boring..


 I agree, there were so many ways they could have discussed that, but it was just a horrible segment to watch.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

SPMJ said:


> I shut the TV off at halftime. What did Mark and Pip say?


Mark: Kobe is a better shooter, a better ball handler and overall a better scorer. Jordan was just a better defeinder.

Pippen: I'm leaving now. Lets go Dan Patrick.


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## bah51 (Apr 5, 2006)

he made no case what so ever, he lost alot of credability for making such a bold statement.


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## Fray (Dec 19, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Him and Lebron will both surpass whoever you think is the greatest ever. History is now.


First of all I :rofl: at your statement...Now that I got that out of my system, Mark Jackson shouldn't be taken too seriously.


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## Intense Enigma (Oct 22, 2005)

Oh man..........Mark and his jokes. :rotf: 

For those who watch the Nets games regularly(YES Network),will understand what im saying

He's very funny "Deng" :rofl:


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

At this point and time people just do not even have the depth of thought to even consider any player will be better than Jordan. People can't even comprehend the concept. 

IMO it is quite easy to see that Kobe will be better than Jordan and LeBron will in turn be better than Kobe barring injury. You have to be real ignorant to think there will not be a player better than Jordan, it is the nature of athletics.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

MemphisX said:


> At this point and time people just do not even have the depth of thought to even consider any player will be better than Jordan. People can't even comprehend the concept.
> 
> IMO it is quite easy to see that Kobe will be better than Jordan and LeBron will in turn be better than Kobe barring injury. You have to be real ignorant to think there will not be a player better than Jordan, it is the nature of athletics.


MJ > All.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Kobe COULD HAVE been the GOAT had not his ego, personality, and selfishness stopped him. The only thing that prevented him from being the GOAT, was himself.

Im telling you, had that LA team from 2000-2003 stayed together without the Kobe/Shaq bickering, i bet they would have had a lot more then just 3 rings...Its sad how two great players ego's crash, stopping what could have been a powerful dynasty


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

MemphisX said:


> At this point and time people just do not even have the depth of thought to even consider any player will be better than Jordan. People can't even comprehend the concept.
> 
> IMO it is quite easy to see that Kobe will be better than Jordan and LeBron will in turn be better than Kobe barring injury. You have to be real ignorant to think there will not be a player better than Jordan, it is the nature of athletics.


Good post. And it's true. As of right now though, Mike still has 6 rings and stands as the GOAT. Let Kobe and Bron's careers fully pan out, then we can evaluate.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

i actually agree with mark jackson on "kobe is the better ball handler, better shooter and better scorer"


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Kobe Bryant is under 30 years old. You have to have a powerful legacy well into your 30's to even be in the discussion. He just isn't there. 

That said, he is the best player in today's game and is leading his team to a strong finish. Averaging 43 or so in April, and his team is 10-3 in the last 13 games. That's what is happening right now. I don't even know how you can begin to call a player under 30 years old the best player of all-time without purely speculating. Not even Jordan himself was considered the greatest of all-time at 27-28 years old.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Kobe Bryant is under 30 years old. You have to have a powerful legacy well into your 30's to even be in the discussion. He just isn't there.
> 
> That said, he is the best player in today's game and is leading his team to a strong finish. Averaging 43 or so in April, and his team is 10-3 in the last 13 games. That's what is happening right now. I don't even know how you can begin to call a player under 30 years old the best player of all-time without purely speculating. Not even Jordan himself was considered the greatest of all-time at 27-28 years old.


Exactly. Where is my props?


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Kobe's a fantastic player(Top 25) but GOAT or being Top 5-10 is all abt awesome stats, multiple MVPs and leading ur team to championships as its undisputed best player. Only players who have the combination of all 3 is Bird, Wilt, Russell, MJ and Magic. Kobe's got a long way to go.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Sith said:


> i actually agree with mark jackson on "kobe is the better ball handler, better shooter and better scorer"


Truth.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Did PIP like literally get pissed when Jackson said that?


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## iverson101 (Mar 4, 2006)

Only an ignorant fool dropped on their head as a baby would question Michael Jordans dominance. Looks like there are a few of those around here.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

I remember when Jordan was coming up in the League and people were saying "All Jordan can do is score. He is a ballhog. Comparing him to Magic, Oscar, Bird is a disgrace to league." That's how short-sited people were/are. People don't realize that 20 years from now, when MJ and Kobe are just distant memories, there will be people saying "Wow, Kobe once scored 81 points. How did he do that? He also had 3 championships. Don't even compare _____ to Kobe."


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## 23 (Apr 23, 2005)

MemphisX said:


> At this point and time people just do not even have the depth of thought to even consider any player will be better than Jordan. People can't even comprehend the concept.
> 
> IMO it is quite easy to see that Kobe will be better than Jordan and LeBron will in turn be better than Kobe barring injury. You have to be real ignorant to think there will not be a player better than Jordan, it is the nature of athletics.



:rofl: 


As LB would say

This is what gives Kobe issues...

Trying to compare him to the all time greats.

Once Kobe can simply distinguish himself from his peers as far as results (with his own team) or individual statistics (birdies of efficiancy) we can talk.

Jordan was top 3 (in a generation of Bird's Magics Barkleys' Dream, Malone etc.) 9 times in his career in Birdies and efficiency as a player.

Kobe has YET to break the top 3.

Not once.

Again, not ONCE!

The players that HAVE done it MORE often than any other players in history involve:

Wilt
Jabbar
Russell
M. Malone
Jordan
West
Magic
Bird
Shaq

You would be hard pressed to figure any of these guys out of the top 10 players (Moses Malone MAYBE) of all time.

The point of course... is that these guys CONSISTENTLY outplayed their peers. And thats the only realistic comparison one can do.

If we are going to argue that Kobe even approaches the Jordan, Magic, Bird territory then we MUST sumise that KG, Duncan etc. have ALL surpussed those players.

Again, the only reasonable way to compare is to see how much those players seperated themselves from their peers.

Kobe doesn't do it. His best year (2003) he was #5 in the leauge. Thats BY FAR the closest he has ever come to accomplishing what those other players did TIME AND TIME AGAIN against their peers.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Post edited per post below. Jordan has some credentials that Kobe will not be able to accomplish due to time not being on his side, unless he gets his Scottie Pippen.


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

LW said:


> I remember when Jordan was coming up in the League and people were saying "All Jordan can do is score. He is a ballhog. Comparing him to Magic, Oscar, Bird is a disgrace to league." That's how short-sited people were/are. People don't realize that 20 years from now, when MJ and Kobe are just distant memories, there will be people saying "Wow, Kobe once scored 81 points. How did he do that? He also had 3 championships. Don't even compare _____ to Kobe."


I'm no fan of Jordan at all, but you can't argue with 6 championships, 5 MVP's, and I think 6 Finals MVP's, not to mention the 10 NBA first teams, all while being unquestionably the first option on the team.

I think Kobe has half the championships (while being the second option on the team.....at least it's debatable he was), 3 NBA first teams (although that number will increase by one after this season), and no MVP's (although again, that number may increase by one after this season). He has a long, long way to go before he's in Jordan's league.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

The criticism of Jordan was heavy. Jordan also played on some bad teams until he was paired with another HOFer AND an all star third wheel. Kobe is winning with Lamar Odom and Kwame Brown...come on people. 

I am not saying Kobe is the greatest yet but it does not take a leap of faith to see that he is headed that way. He _should_ be collecting his first MVP this season but his legacy will start next week in the playoffs. It is the same thing with Jordan. He was downplayed until he put the whammy (63) on the beloved Celtics in the playoffs even then there were people saying he would NEVER win a championship.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

23 said:


> Kobe doesn't do it. His best year (2003) he was #5 in the leauge. Thats BY FAR the closest he has ever come to accomplishing what those other players did TIME AND TIME AGAIN against their peers.


You're using MVP voting to distinguish "best" years? After Iverson won it over Shaq? After Nash won it over Shaq? After Shaq robbed JKidd? The award is a joke.

Saying Kobe doesn't distinguish him from his peers is 1) a tribute to how talented the NBA is (Duncan, Shaq, Wade, LeBron, Tmac, Kobe all having their shine) and 2) a lie. Kobe has always been considered as the best perimeter player. There were years when people had their doubts like when TMac was playing Jordanesque, or last year when he failed to lead the Lakers. This year the monster known as LeBron has thrown in his challenge with 31/7/7. Kobe has so much competition that didn't really exist in Jordan's time and he still proves doubters wrong.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Nate505 said:


> I'm no fan of Jordan at all, but you can't argue with *6 championships, 5 MVP's, and I think 6 Finals MVP's*, not to mention the 10 NBA first teams, all while being unquestionably the first option on the team.


The 6 championships usually says it all for Jordan vs. Kobe, but it's deceiving. You have to remember Russell had 11 or something ridiculous like that. Elgin Baylor never won a championship. Jerry West never won an MVP. Jerry West, in fact, got his Finals MVP after losing in the finals. Sorry, but those numbers are only a fraction of how great a player is. I think Wilt only had 1 championship, but he is arguably the GOAT alongside Jordan. Kobe with 3 championships is in a solid position, hate it or love it.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

LW said:


> The 6 championships usually says it all for Jordan vs. Kobe, but it's deceiving. You have to remember Russell had 11 or something ridiculous like that. Elgin Baylor never won a championship. Jerry West never won an MVP. Jerry West, in fact, got his Finals MVP after losing in the finals. Sorry, but those numbers are only a fraction of how great a player is. I think Wilt only had 1 championship, but he is arguably the GOAT alongside Jordan. Kobe with 3 championships is in a solid position, hate it or love it.


That is true on some levels, but Kobe leading the Lakers to a championship without Shaq would go along way towards his legacy and I am sure Kobe would admit the same.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

LW said:


> You're using MVP voting to distinguish "best" years? After Iverson won it over Shaq? After Nash won it over Shaq? *After Shaq robbed JKidd?* The award is a joke.
> 
> Saying Kobe doesn't distinguish him from his peers is 1) a tribute to how talented the NBA is (Duncan, Shaq, Wade, LeBron, Tmac, Kobe all having their shine) and 2) a lie. Kobe has always been considered as the best perimeter player. There were years when people had their doubts like when TMac was playing Jordanesque, or last year when he failed to lead the Lakers. This year the monster known as LeBron has thrown in his challenge with 31/7/7. Kobe has so much competition that didn't really exist in Jordan's time and he still proves doubters wrong.


Shaq never robbed Kidd. Shaq had by far a better season than Kidd the yr he won which was in 2000. Kidd was allegedly robbed by Duncan for MVP in 2002. Just correcting you is all. Understandable mistake.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Remind me how many championships Jordan had by 27?
I forgot how many times Jordan scored 81 points.

You guys honestly don't think at some point in the next 15 years the lakers aren't going to put a decent team around Kobe and he's not going to win a few more championships?

Kobe isn't just on pace to surpass Jordan. He's on pace to trounce Jordan.

Kobe is already more skilled than Jordan ever was at any one point in his career. Jordan could never shoot it like Kobe can. And Kobe is just as good a slasher as Jordan. Same level of passer. Both are good defenders. Both have good ball handling skills. Everything Jordan can do, Kobe can do. Someone post that video with their highlights. Kobe's been doing things that Jordan couldn't do until he was in his 30's for a few years now.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Yep MVP voting is stupid. Karl Malone is running around with one of Jordan MVPs and one of Duncans.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

It's going to get harder to use MVP awards as proof of anything. The writers have really tried to get too creative in establishing a criteria. 

If Chauncey Billups can realistically win an MVP over LeBron James and Kobe Bryant, what does that really say about the award? John Stockton could win an MVP over Charles Barkley or Hakeem Olajuwon nowadays, as long as his team is 5-10 wins better. People associate the MVP with the best player in the league for the year, but that's hardly what it means anymore.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Remind me how many championships Jordan had by 27?
> I forgot how many times Jordan scored 81 points.
> 
> You guys honestly don't think at some point in the next 15 years the lakers aren't going to put a decent team around Kobe and he's not going to win a few more championships?
> ...


You're such a Kobe homer!


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It's going to get harder to use MVP awards as proof of anything. The writers have really tried to get too creative in establishing a criteria.
> 
> If Chauncey Billups can realistically win an MVP over LeBron James and Kobe Bryant, what does that really say about the award? John Stockton could win an MVP over Charles Barkley or Hakeem Olajuwon nowadays, as long as his team is 5-10 wins better. People associate the MVP with the best player in the league for the year, but that's hardly what it means anymore.


ralaw's daily shot at Dirk and the MVP award------>Which is why Dirk shouldn't be in contention for the award. :biggrin:


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Because Kobe WILL be the greatest player to ever play.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

neoxsupreme said:


> Shaq never robbed Kidd. Shaq had by far a better season than Kidd the yr he won which was in 2000. Kidd was allegedly robbed by Duncan for MVP in 2002. Just correcting you is all. Understandable mistake.


Thanks for the correction.


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## SlamJam (Nov 27, 2004)

MemphisX said:


> . IMO it is quite easy to see that Kobe will be better than Jordan


 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Intense Enigma (Oct 22, 2005)

iverson101 said:


> Only an ignorant fool dropped on their head as a babywould question Michael Jordans dominance. Looks like there are a few of those around here.



Classic :rofl: 

Repped


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Lots of :rofl:, not many arguments. I know Kobe vs. Jordan has been done to death, but :rofl: doesn't really make me say "oh, snap, you're right."


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

Mark Jackson's arguments were pathetic.

He just pointed to 81 and 62 as proof Kobe will be better.

Well MJ had 63 in the playoffs against the Celtics. He had back-to-back 50 point games in the playoffs.

Kobe has six 50 point games this season. MJ has 38 for his career (Kobe has 11).

Kobe will win the scoring title this season. MJ won it 10 times including 7 straight. 

Kobe might win the MVP this year. MJ has 5 and 6 Finals MVPs.

Pippen was right it is still to early to say Kobe will surpass MJ. One out of this world season isn't enough of a sample to claim Kobe will surpass MJ. MJ's greatness was the fact that he maintained a high level for a long time. He was the undisputed best player in the league for awhile. Kobe is just getting that recognition now although his talent has never been questioned. I mean where were these arguments last year? I bet you if Kobe drops back to 28 ppg next year nobody will say this stuff. 

Kobe is a great player. It is arguable that he is more talented than MJ but he isn't MJ's greatness level yet and he isn't even close to surpassing it. Let Kobe win a few more scoring titles and lead the Lakers to several rings with him as a leader then this argument makes more sense.


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## FreeSpeech101 (Jul 30, 2004)

Gilgamesh said:


> Mark Jackson's arguments were pathetic.
> 
> He just pointed to 81 and 62 as proof Kobe will be better.
> 
> ...


You are correct, sir. We can have this discussion after Kobe wins a few more titles and hits 30 or so more game winners. See you all in 2012.


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## FreeSpeech101 (Jul 30, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Remind me how many championships Jordan had by 27?
> I forgot how many times Jordan scored 81 points.
> 
> You guys honestly don't think at some point in the next 15 years the lakers aren't going to put a decent team around Kobe and he's not going to win a few more championships?
> ...


Wrong. Late 80's Jordan was the most dominant force on a basketball court I've witnessed in the 20 or so years I have been watching the game. Not only does the video evidence back me up, but the shooting stats blow your argument out of the water. Have you seen the videos of the circus shots Jordan could make while slashing? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMAm7EpLk3k...l Jordan 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xijuO-Wk5K0...l Jordan 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUuJEeXBBCs...dan jazz (Prime Jordan) 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40Ys-MrAFD8...s Jordan (Here are, oh 20+ or so of his game winners) 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QlQpHUXJ3s...s Jordan (Dunks that put Kobe/LEbron/Wade/fill in the blank to shame) 

Watch the third one/fouth videos, it show you all you need to know about the GOAT.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

The difference is when people rate Jordan they talk about career accomplishments. Awards. Rings. When people talk about Kobe, they talk about raw skills, ability to score, and such.

When people talk about Kobe > MJ or Kobe = MJ, they are obviously talking about the latter. Whether or not Kobe is really as good as MJ, I don't know, but I'll trust Tex Winter's assessment. If he says Kobe can create and make shots better than MJ, that's what I'll go with. Plenty of coaches have said it around the league. Let's not forget that MJ's fg% only blows Kobe's out of the water because he played 18ft and in, whereas Kobe is literally shooting missiles from all over the floor.

In terms of career achievement, Jordan is obviously greater than Kobe. But then Bill Russell would be GOAT, not Jordan.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

FreeSpeech101 said:


> Wrong. Late 80's Jordan was the most dominant force on a basketball court I've witnessed in the 20 or so years I have been watching the game. Not only does the video evidence back me up, but the shooting stats blow your argument out of the water. Have you seen the videos of the circus shots Jordan could make while slashing?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMAm7EpLk3k...l Jordan
> 
> ...


You're using Youtube to prove a point now? Please, there is enough youtube material on Kobe to put all of that to shame. If youtube proves anything about the NBA, it's that highlights only get better.


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## WhoDaBest23 (Apr 16, 2003)

Gilgamesh said:


> Mark Jackson's arguments were pathetic.
> 
> He just pointed to 81 and 62 as proof Kobe will be better.
> 
> ...


Great post.

I bet Scottie just wanted to burst out when Jackson was making his arguments. He really seemed uncomfortable and I found it pretty funny.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

If you want to go by skill set to determine the G.O.A.T. then Oscar would be the greatess easily.

To me the G.O.A.T. mantle is determined by a number of factors including skills and career achievements.



LW said:


> The difference is when people rate Jordan they talk about career accomplishments. Awards. Rings. When people talk about Kobe, they talk about raw skills, ability to score, and such.
> 
> When people talk about Kobe > MJ or Kobe = MJ, they are obviously talking about the latter. Whether or not Kobe is really as good as MJ, I don't know, but I'll trust Tex Winter's assessment. If he says Kobe can create and make shots better than MJ, that's what I'll go with. Plenty of coaches have said it around the league. Let's not forget that MJ's fg% only blows Kobe's out of the water because he played 18ft and in, whereas Kobe is literally shooting missiles from all over the floor.
> 
> In terms of career achievement, Jordan is obviously greater than Kobe. But then Bill Russell would be GOAT, not Jordan.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Remind me how many championships Jordan had by 27?
> I forgot how many times Jordan scored 81 points.
> 
> You guys honestly don't think at some point in the next 15 years the lakers aren't going to put a decent team around Kobe and he's not going to win a few more championships?
> ...


Seriously, stop!


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Gilgamesh said:


> If you want to go by skill set to determine the G.O.A.T. then Oscar would be the greatess easily.
> 
> To me the G.O.A.T. mantle is determined by a number of factors including skills and career achievements.


I agree. To this day I feel Oscar Robertson does not get his share of GOAT talk. Obviously basketball was not a mass market when he played and symbols like "Air" about a black person would probably not be accepted anyway. Jordan really benefitted from the boom of the NBA in the late 80s and his name took off like crazy.

It's obvious that to this day we have Jordan zombies that are really just 15 year old kids who barely saw him play. To them the idea of LeBron, or even worse, Kobe, having a chance to claim GOAT status and invalidating their thousands of dollars of "Air" merchanise is unacceptable.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

LW said:


> I agree. To this day I feel Oscar Robertson does not get his share of GOAT talk. Obviously basketball was not a mass market when he played and symbols like "Air" about a black person would probably not be accepted anyway. Jordan really benefitted from the boom of the NBA in the late 80s and his name took off like crazy.


There are severall players who could get some share of GOAT talk. Oscar is one of them. IMHO, and because i value level of play + achievments while talking about the subject, Oscar's innability to lead his team to greatness is a big knock. The fact that he only got like one MVP award is another. But yes, he was great.



> It's obvious that to this day we have Jordan zombies that are really just 15 year old kids who barely saw him play. To them the idea of LeBron, or even worse, Kobe, having a chance to claim GOAT status and invalidating their thousands of dollars of "Air" merchanise is unacceptable.


Thing is, these guys:
a) Don't care with what came before Jordan;
b) Rely on stats too much;
c) Don't understand how the game has changed since Jordan's days.


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## alex (Jan 7, 2003)

Gilgamesh said:


> Mark Jackson's arguments were pathetic.
> 
> He just pointed to 81 and 62 as proof Kobe will be better.
> 
> ...



Great post!

It's absolutely insane to think that Braynt's gunna be better after this very very dominant season. What were people saying about him last year after his team lost (I think) 44 games, and he scored 27 ppg (which is obviously good, but he had a low field goal percentage and had, like he does this season, relatively low rpg and apg)? He's a top two player--probably number one--for THIS season. He was always considered top five, but never the undisputed best, and frankly, you could make a very valid argument for LBJ as the numero uno. Michael Jordan was better then every player he played against for at about ten seasons. Bryant has had that disctinction once. Just once . . . 

Bryant needs to sustain such regular season success WHILE becoming an intergral part of title winning teams. There are four consecutive seasons in the early part of MJ's career that stretch from 1986-87 and end in 1989-90 that are better than Kobe's current one. His team never was dominant--like the actual Lakers--but the individual numbers certainly were there.

And future . . . MJ was a faaaaaar better penetrator. His quickness and athleticism were unparalleled, and they left Kobe Bryant's in the dust. He was also a much better defender. Most importantly, Jordan did this for a decade and a half, Bryant's been at this stratospheric level just for this season. . .


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

kobe doesn't have the determination to win like so many of the greats did if he did the lakers would easily be in the playoffs if he did because he has more the enouh talent to be the greatest but lets see how he can perform in the playoffs without shaq like the great players usually perform best at playoff time he had alot of clutch perfomances but i want to see him do it when it counts for something


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> Thing is, these guys:
> a) Don't care with what came before Jordan;
> b) Rely on stats too much;
> c) Don't understand how the game has changed since Jordan's days.


Right on cue. Here's one right now. ^^


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

LW said:


> When people talk about Kobe>MJ or Kobe = MJ, they are obviously talking about the latter.


I've never seen anyone say Kobe=MJ, much less Kobe>MJ. Nobody talks abt it because people know Kobe neither has the accomplishments or that level of skill.



> Whether or not Kobe is really as good as MJ, I don't know


You don't? :laugh:



> but I'll trust Tex Winter's assessment. If he says Kobe can create and make shots better than MJ, that's what I'll go with.


When exactly did he say this? Can you please provide a link. 



> Plenty of coaches have said it around the league.


Name one, and not someone who works for LA.



> Let's not forget that MJ's fg% only blows Kobe's out of the water because he played 18ft and in, whereas Kobe is literally shooting missiles from all over the floor.


Kobe has NEVER sniffed MJ's FG% even when he wasn't 3pt obsessed like he has been the last couple of years. And MJ played 20 ft and in because he's the greatest combination of slashing+finishing+mid-range shooting the league has ever seen. Kobe does all 3 pretty well, but clearly well short of MJ's level. 



> In terms of career achievement, Jordan is obviously greater than Kobe. But then Bill Russell would be GOAT, not Jordan.


Aside from 3pt shooting, there isn't a single thing Kobe does better then MJ on a basketball court.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

The same thing can be said that there are Kobe and Lebron zombies.

MJ's claim as the GOAT can definitely be disputed. Wilt, Oscar, Russell, Kareem, all have legitmate claim to that mantle.

That is why I don't think MJ is the _undisputed_ GOAT.

But I also think it is flawed to judge a player's greatness by only using their skillset. To me when we talk about GOAT we have to factor in a lot of criterions.

If we talk about raw talent it is definitely arguable that Kobe is better than MJ at least offensively. It's even arguable that Lebron is better than MJ. 

It's also arguable that David Robinson is better than Shaq by just using that criteria but I don't know many people who would place teh Admiral above Shaq in an all-time greatess list. 



LW said:


> I agree. To this day I feel Oscar Robertson does not get his share of GOAT talk. Obviously basketball was not a mass market when he played and symbols like "Air" about a black person would probably not be accepted anyway. Jordan really benefitted from the boom of the NBA in the late 80s and his name took off like crazy.
> 
> It's obvious that to this day we have Jordan zombies that are really just 15 year old kids who barely saw him play. To them the idea of LeBron, or even worse, Kobe, having a chance to claim GOAT status and invalidating their thousands of dollars of "Air" merchanise is unacceptable.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

alex said:


> Bryant needs to sustain such regular season success WHILE becoming an intergral part of title winning teams.


I agree. It's too early to prop Kobe over Mike.



> There are four consecutive seasons in the early part of MJ's career that stretch from 1986-87 and end in 1989-90 that are better than Kobe's current one. His team never was dominant--like the actual Lakers--but the individual numbers certainly were there.


That was a different league, then. It was a high scoring league.
In 1988 (Jordan's first MVP), only ONE team didn't crack 100ppg. Last year, only 6 did. Last year, Suns led the offensive charge with 110.4ppg. 6 teams did better than that in 1988.

In 1991 (Jordan's second MVP) Only 3 teams didn't crack 100ppg. And so, and so.

With this years changing of rules, MAYBE Michael Jordan could put up 37.5ppg in over .500FG%. But not in the last 4 or 5 years, IMHO.



> Most importantly, Jordan did this for a decade and a half, Bryant's been at this level for just a year stratospheric level just for this season. . .


I think that's it. ONLY if Kobe can consistently stay at this level of play can he be argued with Jordan.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

SPMJ said:


> Kobe has NEVER sniffed MJ's FG% even when he wasn't 3pt obsessed like he has been the last couple of years. And MJ played 20 ft and in because he's the greatest combination of slashing+finishing+mid-range shooting the league has ever seen. Kobe does all 3 pretty well, but clearly well short of MJ's level.


I would like to add more to this. The 3 ball is a HUGE part of Kobe's current game. You can't say his FG% is low because of that and then go on to say he's equivalent to MJ as a scorer because of his PPG this season. He wouldn't be averaging 35 ppg if he wasn't attempting close to 7 a game.



> Aside from 3pt shooting, there isn't a single thing Kobe does better then MJ on a basketball court.


MJ was actually a pretty strong 3pt shooter once he decided to add it to his arsenal. He shot over 35% 5 times in his 13 year career as a Bull. Kobe has only done it twice in 10 years(rookie year&02-03).

*Bottom line:* For Kobe to be MJ's equal or come close to that level he'll have to maintain his current level of play for a good 4-6 year stretch while winning MVPs and leading his team to championships.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Gilgamesh said:


> Mark Jackson's arguments were pathetic.
> 
> He just pointed to 81 and 62 as proof Kobe will be better.
> 
> ...


In fairness to Mark Jackson he did said at the end of the day (Kobe's Career) when all is said and done, Kobe will be greater than Mike. I really dont see a reason why you guys would even doubt that and say that its never going to happen. Kobe is 27 and he already has 3 championship rings, and has been named numerous times to All defensive team just like Mike, his offensive game is already slightly better than Mike and his work ethic equals that of the legend, but you cant just look at personal achievements and accomplishments alone if that was the case then Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul Jabbar are greater than MJ himself.

Kobe is writing another chapter of greatness, in due time amidst of the negativity that surrounds him if he overcomes all of this with a championship ring or two, People's perception may change seeing how he overcame adversity.


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## JoeOtter15 (Apr 22, 2005)

:rotf:

on the nets game on right now, mark jackson and marv albert have been discussing this topic. Mark said that he got tons of emails saying your crazy. One email was from Charles Barkley, asking if he had been drinking. Mark said that he was trying to get in touch with him for a while, and Charles never responded back to his calls. Mark said, "It took me to say something crazy to get Charles to talk to me? I say a lot of crazy things, like Charles Barkley is very handsome."


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> but you cant just look at personal achievements and accomplishments alone if that was the case then Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul Jabbar are greater than MJ himself.


Why do people say this? MJ has more RS MVPs, Finals MVPs and overall championships then both. Also has a better career ppg. You can't f*** with MJ's numbers or how much he won. That's why he's the GOAT. Call me when someone playing right now comes close to matching that.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

Seriously I don't even think Kobe is close to surpassing MJ yet.

Like many people and myself have now said we need to see Kobe do what he is doing consistently for several more seasons before this argument can even be really brought up _legitimately_.

Can Kobe end up better than MJ? Sure. Can Lebron? Sure. Can Oden? Sure.

But the NBA is almost like a fad league where fans jump on the bandwagon. Yes Kobe has been a very good player for many years but only this year has he played to this type of level. The question now is how long can he sustain it? MJ sustained a very high level almost his entire career. You don't win 10 scoring titles and 11 regular season and postseason MVPs if he didn't. 

If Kobe goes back to 28 ppg next year will anybody really dare to make a _concrete_ claim like Mark Jackson (who shouldn't really be taken seriously anyways) that Kobe _will_ not _might_ surpass MJ?

Right now Kobe is still at the beginnings of a _might_ stage he is still far from a _will_ stage.

MJ also had adversity. Did people forget his father was murdered during the prime of his career?



KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> In fairness to Mark Jackson he did said at the end of the day (Kobe's Career) when all is said and done, Kobe will be greater than Mike. I really dont see a reason why you guys would even doubt that and say that its never going to happen. Kobe is 27 and he already has 3 championship rings, and has been named numerous times to All defensive team just like Mike, his offensive game is already slightly better than Mike and his work ethic equals that of the legend, but you cant just look at personal achievements and accomplishments alone if that was the case then Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul Jabbar are greater than MJ himself.
> 
> Kobe is writing another chapter of greatness, in due time amidst of the negativity that surrounds him if he overcomes all of this with a championship ring or two, People's perception may change seeing how he overcame adversity.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

I look at it like this:

There can be no true, definitive G.O.A.T. By labeling someone "G.O.A.T." it adversly dis-credits others who for a time were known as the "G.O.A.T.". It's a touchy and difficult subject because you are comparing era's, and players continue to grow in body and skill level. It's like, do you really think Wilt Chamberlain can do the things he did in his time, within the current NBA? Hell No.. It was a super-athletic 7ft Center, playing up against what now would be like High School level players of today. He was so far ahead of his time. He was the prototype for the Centers from the '80's and on. Do you think Wilt could score 100 against an Alonzo Mourning, or with today's advanced defensive schemes that have become so intergal to the game since the early 90's? I say there are MANY G.O.A.T.s One for each era. No true definitive G.O.A.T. because its too difficult to compare era's and context of the leagues. Get what I mean? It's too hard to label one person as the Greatest Of All Time. Especially since elder generations are forgot, and people always remember the most recent, greatest player to play the game. Kobe and LeBron will most likely join that status.


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

LW said:


> The 6 championships usually says it all for Jordan vs. Kobe, but it's deceiving. You have to remember Russell had 11 or something ridiculous like that. Elgin Baylor never won a championship. Jerry West never won an MVP. Jerry West, in fact, got his Finals MVP after losing in the finals. Sorry, but those numbers are only a fraction of how great a player is. I think Wilt only had 1 championship, but he is arguably the GOAT alongside Jordan. Kobe with 3 championships is in a solid position, hate it or love it.


It's not just the championships, and believe me, as Stockton and Malone fan I don't believe Championships alone justifies greatness. But with Jordan, it was the Championships, the MVP's, the all first teams, the Finals' MVPs, the dozen or so all star games, the scoring average, the defense, the unstoppable fadaway jumper, and the clutch shooting that put him in a class of his own, that Kobe doesn't have. Does that mean Kobe will never get there? No, but I wouldn't bet on his career accomplishments equlling Jordan's.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

SPMJ said:


> Why do people say this? MJ has more RS MVPs, Final MVPs and overall championships then both. Also has a better career ppg. You can't f*** with MJ's numbers or how much he won. That's why he's the GOAT. Call me when someone playing right now comes close to matching that.


Pick up the phone, Kobe scoring only MJ ever did throughout the entire season is calling you.


too much hate is bad for you...it makes you blind.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

SPMJ said:


> *Bottom line:* For Kobe to be MJ's equal or come close to that level he'll have to maintain his current play for a good 4-6 year stretch while winning MVPs and leading his team to championships.


I believe Kobe can win 2-to-3 MVPs till he calls it quits (he should be winning his first this season). Leading his team to championships is the tricky part. Kobe is 27. Let's say he has 6 prime years left. IF the Lakers can field a championship-caliber team around Kobe, the best case scenario would be after next season (cap hell). That would leave, at best, 5 years to try and make it.

What would be the absolute best case scenario, regarding team success?


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

LW said:


> The difference is when people rate Jordan they talk about career accomplishments. Awards. Rings. When people talk about Kobe, they talk about raw skills, ability to score, and such.


Jordan also had the raw skill and ability to score. He was also one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time. If Kobe starts to score more efficiently _and_ becomes the best defender in the league, then you can say he's about as good as Jordan. I don't see it happening.



> Let's not forget that MJ's fg% only blows Kobe's out of the water because he played 18ft and in, whereas Kobe is literally shooting missiles from all over the floor.


Why not look at TS%, then? That takes into account the extra value of three-pointers. Jordan's TS% was much better than Kobe's in his prime.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Pick up the phone, Kobe scoring only MJ ever did throughout the entire season is calling you.


What?



> too much hate is bad for you...it makes you blind.


Saying Kobe has a long way to go to get on MJ's level is hating now? :laugh:. Kobe groupies like you need to take their heads out of his a** and take a good long look at reality first.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

That is why GOAT is subjective just like opinions.

There might be popular opinions but there is no real consensus that MJ is the GOAT. For every ten people I know that say MJ is the greatest there will be one that will say Wilt, Russell, Oscar, Kareem, Magic, Bird, and etc.

MJ wins the popular vote as GOAT but he is *not* the _undisputed_ GOAT. You have to be ignorant or a homer I think to claim that.



The MAMBA said:


> I look at it like this:
> 
> There can be no true, definitive G.O.A.T. By labeling someone "G.O.A.T." it adversly dis-credits others who for a time were known as the "G.O.A.T.". It's a touchy and difficult subject because you are comparing era's, and players continue to grow in body and skill level. It's like, do you really think Wilt Chamberlain can do the things he did in his time, within the current NBA? Hell No.. It was a super-athletic 7ft Center, playing up against what now would be like High School level players of today. He was so far ahead of his time. He was the prototype for the Centers from the '80's and on. Do you think Wilt could score 100 against an Alonzo Mourning, or with today's advanced defensive schemes that have become so intergal to the game since the early 90's? I say there are MANY G.O.A.T.s One for each era. No true definitive G.O.A.T. because its too difficult to compare era's and context of the leagues. Get what I mean? It's too hard to label one person as the Greatest Of All Time. Especially since elder generations are forgot, and people always remember the most recent, greatest player to play the game. Kobe and LeBron will most likely join that status.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Gilgamesh said:


> Seriously I don't even think Kobe is close to surpassing MJ yet.


I dont either, for people to think that he is close to surpassing MJ is just flat out hallucinating.



Gilgamesh said:


> Like many people and myself have now said we need to see Kobe do what he is doing consistently for several more seasons before this argument can even be really brought up Yes Kobe has been a very good player for many years but only this year has he played to this type of level. The question now is how long can he sustain it? MJ sustained a very high level almost his entire career.


And he has since the 00-01 season up to this point he has been averaging 28.4 pts per game and thats playing second fiddle (except this season) to LA's main focal point of offense. Most people here downplays Kobe's other season and wonder if Kobe can maintain at this pace. Matter of fact Kobe's best season is not even this season, it just made the most noise. His overall best season is in 2002 where he averaged 30.0 ppg 6.9 rpg 5.9 apg 2.2 spg.






Gilgamesh said:


> If Kobe goes back to 28 ppg next year will anybody really dare to make a _concrete_ claim like Mark Jackson (who shouldn't really be taken seriously anyways) that Kobe _will_ not _might_ surpass MJ?.


Barring injury, I dont see Kobe averaging less than 30 ppg in his prime, I can honestly say he can come close to this years performance next year..I seriously do not doubt his work ethic and desire to be great...


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## 23 (Apr 23, 2005)

23 said:


> :rofl:
> 
> 
> As LB would say
> ...


Even against current competition, Kobe isnt that greatest


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

The MAMBA said:


> I look at it like this:
> 
> There can be no true, definitive G.O.A.T. By labeling someone "G.O.A.T." it adversly dis-credits others who for a time were known as the "G.O.A.T.". It's a touchy and difficult subject because you are comparing era's, and players continue to grow in body and skill level. It's like, do you really think Wilt Chamberlain can do the things he did in his time, within the current NBA? Hell No.. It was a super-athletic 7ft Center, playing up against what now would be like High School level players of today. He was so far ahead of his time. He was the prototype for the Centers from the '80's and on. Do you think Wilt could score 100 against an Alonzo Mourning, or with today's advanced defensive schemes that have become so intergal to the game since the early 90's? I say there are MANY G.O.A.T.s One for each era. No true definitive G.O.A.T. because its too difficult to compare era's and context of the leagues. Get what I mean? It's too hard to label one person as the Greatest Of All Time. Especially since elder generations are forgot, and people always remember the most recent, greatest player to play the game. Kobe and LeBron will most likely join that status.


This pretty much sums up my thoughts. 

Kobe and Lebron would need astronomical numbers and incredible team success to be able to surpass Jordan without significant argument. And even Jordan isn't considered by all the to be greatest. But I do think eventually Kobe and Lebron could certainly warrant being part of the discussion.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

SPMJ said:


> What?
> 
> 
> 
> Saying Kobe has a long way to go to get on MJ's level is hating now? :laugh:.


Its sad you cant even grasp your own personality that you try to establish in this board, you admitted numerous times you hate Kobe then quickly dissolves the fact that you're not hating now.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

if kobe refrains from retiring and ruining the potential of his career, he will, in the end, be better than Jordan


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

Lamest Argument Ever...

MJ > Kobe

10 All nba 1st team > 3 All NBA 1st Team

10 Scoring Titles > 1 (2006)

9 All-NBA Defensive Teams > 1 All-D Tram

1 DPOTY > 0

Jordan 33.4 Playoff PPG (#1 OVerall)

Jordan 30.1 PPG Career (#1 Overall)

Jordan FG% > Kobe FG%

5 time NBA MVP > 0

6 Times NBA Finals MVP > 0

6 Rings > 3 rings

MJ has higher averages than Kobe in every single career stat including playoffs except three point shooting which is only .1% less. MJ was also a higher percentage in 3 point shooting in the playoofs. 

MJ>>>>Kobe 

I dont see how Mark Jackson can even claim something so stupid. Do Kobe Lovers even think that Kobe can get 5 NBA MVPs, and 8 more 1st Team Defense awards, 10 scoring titles, etc.?


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Its sad you cant even grasp your own personality that you try to establish in this board, you admitted numerous times you hate Kobe then quickly dissolves the fact that you're not hating now.


What does me hating Kobe have to do with saying something as obvious as Kobe has a LONG way to go to be on MJ's level? 

Seriously, it seems like you have a bigger problem with me then what I've go to say. Can you kindly point out when I've "hated" on your crush in this thread?


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

That season can certainly be argued to be his best overall season but this season is his MVP season. 

Same thing as MJ. He had his best overall and statistical seasons before when many people claim to be his prime.

Kobe is out of this world this season and I won't dispute with you that 2002 was his best overall season. 

Fact still is many people are basing the argument that Kobe will surpass MJ solely on his achievements this year. Like Mark Jackson who repeatedly said 81 and 62. I need to see a few more seasons where Kobe is almost the undisputed best player in the league to claim the argument that he will surpass MJ. If Kobe had went 28-6-6 this season and even if the Lakers made the playoffs will anybody really make this argument? I really don't think so. Kobe's out of this world play this season has resurfaced and for some _confirmed_ those arguments made back in 2002. Like I said, the NBA is almost a fad league. If for some reason, Kobe becomes a 28-6-6 player next year and the Lakers miss the playoffs or end up with less than 45 wins I bet people like Mark Jackson would jump off his nuts. 



KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> And he has since the 00-01 season up to this point he has been averaging 28.4 pts per game and thats playing second fiddle (except this season) to LA's main focal point of offense. Most people here downplays Kobe's other season and wonder if Kobe can maintain at this pace. Matter of fact Kobe's best season is not even this season, it just made the most noise. His overall best season is in 2002 where he averaged 30.0 ppg 6.9 rpg 5.9 apg 2.2 spg.


Kobe's work ethic is incredible. I don't doubt either that he can repeat this kind of performance next year. But your first two words in the next quote is another reason why it is still premature to make this kind of argument. I agree with Pippen that it is still too early to say for sure that Kobe will surpass MJ. Can he? Of course. I won't argue against that at all. I don't think Pippen would either and that is why he said what he said. He never said that Kobe can't surpass MJ even though Pippen is MJ's buddy. HE simply said it is still too early. Mark Jackson on the other hand is like you said...hallucinating.



KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Barring injury, I dont see Kobe averaging less than 30 ppg in his prime, I can honestly say he can come close to this years performance next year..I seriously do not doubt his work ethic and desire to be great...


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

SPMJ said:


> What does me hating Kobe have to do with saying something as obvious as Kobe has a LONG way to go to be on MJ's level?


normal human reaction, a dislike to one person will only equate to a non positive reaction. facts of life mam. dont be too sensitive.




SPMJ said:


> Seriously, it seems like you have a bigger problem with me then what I've go to say.


Problem with you? Sorry, i dont take things personally in the internet. I Apologize if thats what it may seem to you and may have hit a sore spot there. Plus even if that is the case...



I have bigger fish to fry than SPMJ-KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Gilgamesh said:


> That season can certainly be argued to be his best overall season but this season is his MVP season.
> 
> Same thing as MJ. He had his best overall and statistical seasons before when many people claim to be his prime.
> 
> ...


Good post, I may not totally agree but you have some valid points.


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

Gilgamesh said:


> That season can certainly be argued to be his best overall season but this season is his MVP season.
> 
> Same thing as MJ. He had his best overall and statistical seasons before when many people claim to be his prime.
> 
> ...


During the Nets game, Broadcasters Marv and Mark Jackson were debating about this topic as well and Marv pretty much made Mark Jackson eat his words. Also, Vince came to the scorers table at a timeout and basically just told Marv that he disagreed. Also, Mark said Barkley called him and asked Mark Jackson if he was drunk.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

Mark Jackson is learning from Walton.

They are great _colour_ commentators and not to be taken seriously.



DaBigTicketKG21 said:


> During the Nets game, Broadcasters Marv and Mark Jackson were debating about this topic as well and Marv pretty much made Mark Jackson eat his words. Also, Vince came to the scorers table at a timeout and basically just told Marv that he disagreed. Also, Mark said Barkley called him and asked Mark Jackson if he was drunk.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Like I have said all year, get it all out of your system ASAP because Kobe is going to win you over. This season brought some into the fold, this post season will bring more, and it will go on from there...

As one of the biggest Jordan fans ever, I know how it works. Some of these older journalist that used to write for SI use to destroy MJ before they fell into the fold. Even after the 1st title runs, he was not widely considered the GOAT, so I understand it will take awhile.

However, what I find funny is that people hold Kobe's early years against even though it is obvious if he had a team built around him he would definitely be on the Jordan track right now, gaudy stats and little team success. However, he sacrificed his game for the sake of winning. Isn't it more understandable why he wanted the team, he could never even make a run at the title as GOAT with Shaq and there was no guarantee that they would even win another title either (look at Miami). However, he has had a chance to put up some individual numbers...now he has a good 6 years until LeBron, OJ and Greg Oden take over the league.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> I look at it like this:
> 
> There can be no true, definitive G.O.A.T. By labeling someone "G.O.A.T." it adversly dis-credits others who for a time were known as the "G.O.A.T.". It's a touchy and difficult subject because you are comparing era's, and players continue to grow in body and skill level. It's like, do you really think Wilt Chamberlain can do the things he did in his time, within the current NBA? Hell No.. It was a super-athletic 7ft Center, playing up against what now would be like High School level players of today. He was so far ahead of his time. He was the prototype for the Centers from the '80's and on. Do you think Wilt could score 100 against an Alonzo Mourning, or with today's advanced defensive schemes that have become so intergal to the game since the early 90's? I say there are MANY G.O.A.T.s One for each era. No true definitive G.O.A.T. because its too difficult to compare era's and context of the leagues. Get what I mean? It's too hard to label one person as the Greatest Of All Time. Especially since elder generations are forgot, and people always remember the most recent, greatest player to play the game. Kobe and LeBron will most likely join that status.


Fantastic post. 

Human evolution is the curveball in all of this. What if Wilt couldn't do near what he did in his own time, in today's game? Does that take away from what he did in his time? In my opinion, it can't, because then when we have to start speculating about well Michael Jordan didn't play against zone defenses, was guarded by 6'4 shooting guards, and defensive strategy has come a long way since the 80's. You can't speculate about how every great player would have done in every different era. It's just not worth it. 

So you have two choices: 
1. Don't compare players from different eras, and evaluate the great players from each era individually and leave it at that. 
2. Compare players based on how they dominated their own era. 

For me, a players legacy should be 100% based on what he did in his own time. Any speculation about what a player would have or would not have done in another era is pure speculation that would weave too big of a tangled web to make any progress in determining who is better among great players from different eras.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

SPMJ said:


> I've never seen anyone say Kobe=MJ, much less Kobe>MJ. Nobody talks abt it because people know Kobe neither has the accomplishments or that level of skill.


Wow, you don't see people posting this kind of stuff all the time? You're missing out on the chaos 



> When exactly did he say this? Can you please provide a link.


I'll find the quote and edit this sentence.

EDIT:



> Kobe: Tex says Kobe has stunned him with his play this season, that he has clearly exceeded Jordan as a shot-maker. Kobe still has some trouble with the team game, with involving his teammates. That's not because he doesn't understand. Kobe has long understood every facet of the triangle offense. Kobe wants to do the right thing every time. But he's just so impulsive, Winter said, that Kobe will sometimes do the wrong thing out of impulse.


This was by Lazenby in the LA Times commenting on his interview with Tex Winter. Basically confirming that Kobe comparable or better scorer than MJ while being much weaker mentally. This is what every reasonable person will tell you.



> Name one, and not someone who works for LA.


Dunleavy. After the Lakers whooped on the Clippers. He basically said Kobe's offensive game is better than Michael's but needs to involve teammates. No surprise.



> Kobe has NEVER sniffed MJ's FG% even when he wasn't 3pt obsessed like he has been the last couple of years. And MJ played 20 ft and in because he's the greatest combination of slashing+finishing+mid-range shooting the league has ever seen. Kobe does all 3 pretty well, but clearly well short of MJ's level.


So you're going to compare Jordan's best with Kobe's best yet to come? Okay. That's actually fair, no sarcasm, since Kobe has played 10 years.



> Aside from 3pt shooting, there isn't a single thing Kobe does better then MJ on a basketball court.


Ball handling and scoring. Both by a hair.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

Just read my sig...


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

Not only does the game change, people will cling to whoever was best in their era. Maybe it'll be different with Jordan since there's so much footage that's still being shown, but with the way the media promotes the current best player as the best it's possible.

When there's no actual connection to the player, that generation will more freely name someone else the best.


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## abwowang (Mar 7, 2006)

surprised the camera men didnt say anything.

That's way too bold of a statement to make without some sort of backlash.

If I were pippen I woulda just punched mark jackson.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

MemphisX said:


> Like I have said all year, get it all out of your system ASAP because Kobe is going to win you over. This season brought some into the fold, this post season will bring more, and it will go on from there...
> 
> As one of the biggest Jordan fans ever, I know how it works. Some of these older journalist that used to write for SI use to destroy MJ before they fell into the fold. Even after the 1st title runs, he was not widely considered the GOAT, so I understand it will take awhile.
> 
> However, what I find funny is that people hold Kobe's early years against even though it is obvious if he had a team built around him he would definitely be on the Jordan track right now, gaudy stats and little team success. However, he sacrificed his game for the sake of winning. Isn't it more understandable why he wanted the team, he could never even make a run at the title as GOAT with Shaq and there was no guarantee that they would even win another title either (look at Miami). However, he has had a chance to put up some individual numbers...now he has a good 6 years until LeBron, OJ and Greg Oden take over the league.


It seems only true Jordan fans understand Kobe. Not these kids who didn't even watch Jordan play. I remember when I had to defend Jordan. Friends would tell me "Jordan is a jerk! Magic will always be greater" and I would say his cocky attitude would make him the greatest ever. I was young and stupid, but it became true. Jordan became one of the best. As he was winning rings, friends would tell me "Jordan is a ball hog." I would tell them to shut the **** up, because I'll take any ball hog that wins championships.

Well guess what? The same thing is happening with Kobe and I find myself defending him all the time. Once again people are being short-sited, not realizing they are watching greatness. Anyone who tells me Kobe is no where near Jordan needs to watch some basketball. It's the only cure for hate.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

LW said:


> It seems only true Jordan fans understand Kobe. Not these kids who didn't even watch Jordan play. I remember when I had to defend Jordan. Friends would tell me "Jordan is a jerk! Magic will always be greater" and I would say his cocky attitude would make him the greatest ever. I was young and stupid, but it became true. Jordan became one of the best. As he was winning rings, friends would tell me "Jordan is a ball hog." I would tell them to shut the **** up, because I'll take any ball hog that wins championships.
> 
> Well guess what? The same thing is happening with Kobe and I find myself defending him all the time. Once again people are being short-sited, not realizing they are watching greatness. Anyone who tells me Kobe is no where near Jordan needs to watch some basketball. It's the only cure for hate.


I like this person.


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## TwiBlueG35 (Jan 24, 2006)

Air Fly said:


> MJ > All.



Although I totally respect Michael Jordan, I can't agree with you. On paper Kobe Bryant is very very close to MJ's best numbers, if not already surpass them. I think the numbers don't lie, and they are the most objective way to look at how a player does on court. I say MJ ~ KB.


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

TwiBlueG35 said:


> Although I totally respect Michael Jordan, I can't agree with you. On paper Kobe Bryant is very very close to MJ's best numbers, if not already surpass them. I think the numbers don't lie, and they are the most objective way to look at how a player does on court. I say MJ ~ KB.


Numbers? Wut?

MJ > Kobe

10 All nba 1st team > 3 All NBA 1st Team

10 Scoring Titles > 1 (2006)

9 All-NBA Defensive Teams > 1 All-D Tram

1 DPOTY > 0

Jordan 33.4 Playoff PPG (#1 OVerall)

Jordan 30.1 PPG Career (#1 Overall)

Jordan FG% > Kobe FG%

5 time NBA MVP > 0

6 Times NBA Finals MVP > 0

6 Rings > 3 rings


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> I like this person.


Me too. Kid knows his stuff. And he really hits home with "Only true Jordan Fans, understand Kobe." And it's true. If you're a baller, and you play basketball or understand the game, you should be able to recognize and realize the greatness of Kobe Bryant playing out in front of our eyes.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

DaBigTicketKG21 said:


> 9 All-NBA Defensive Teams > *3 * All-D Team


It hardly matters but I thought ill correct it anyways.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> Me too. Kid knows his stuff. And he really hits home with "Only true Jordan Fans, understand Kobe." And it's true. * If you're a baller, and you play basketball or understand the game, you should be able to recognize and realize the greatness of Kobe Bryant playing out in front of our eyes.*


Truth


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

Why do we continue to use these dumb award to judge players, hey look at this:

Finals MVP

Billups 1
Malone, Payton, Drexler, Pippen, Stockton, Iverson, Barckley, Garnett, Nowitzki, Kidd = *0*

These awards only take into consideration the year they got the award you can't compare on season's awards to another, for example. Kobe has had a better career then Nash so far, and has easily been the better player, but if you only count awards Nash would be up 1-0 on Kobe for the past 10 years. Which isn't really true, so you either watch the games or compare stats, but please no awards.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

DaBigTicketKG21 said:


> Numbers? Wut?
> 
> MJ > Kobe
> 
> ...


[/COUGH] i think he was talking about this years numbers[/COUGH]


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## ChiSox (Jun 9, 2004)

Kobe reminds me of the thirty three year old Jordan. Kobe could do a lot of the things a thirty three year old Jordan could do. Kobe can't score or impact the game like a twenty seven year old Jordan could. Sure Kobe shots from the outside better than Jordan, so what. Ray Allen, Steve Kerr, Reggie Miller etc... shoot better from the outside too. Heck Patrick Ewing shoots better from the outside than Shac but I don't think he was a better player or scorer. Jordan didn't have to shot from the outside much. The biggest difference between Kobe and Jordan is the 1st step. Jordan 1st step was a quick as Iverson's 1st step when he was in his twenties. If Kobe was as quick as Iverson would he shoot as many jump shots? As a two guard Jordan lead the league in dunks. This is because of he quickness, speed and jumping ability. Kobe may be able to jump as high or higher than Jordan but he isn't nearly as fast or quick. I truly believe if Jordan would have played with Shaq, he would have won more than three titles. To me, Shaq is way better than any player Jordan has played with. 

I like Kobe. As a scorer and player he doesn't measure up to Mike at the same age.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

In all honesty... Kobe is super-athletic, but he isn't even close to being on the level of MJ athletically. No one has been on that level since MJ left. The body control, the effort less nature of his moves, the explosion to the rim... all are in favor of Mike.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

TwiBlueG35 said:


> Although I totally respect Michael Jordan, I can't agree with you. On paper Kobe Bryant is very very close to MJ's best numbers, if not already surpass them. I think the numbers don't lie, and they are the most objective way to look at how a player does on court. I say MJ ~ KB.


Jordan has Kobe beat in awards/honors & stats. Jordan's more efficient @ scoring which his shooting % & PPS (points per shot) should indicate. He has better all around #s in his prime & better defensive #s.


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## CbobbyB (Feb 16, 2006)

Carbo04 said:


> ABC/ESPN sucks balls. They made that so stupid.
> 
> Give TNT all TV rights for the NBA, please.


:clap:


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

Kobe has all the skills of Jordan, I will not deny that. However, Kobe is playing in the wrong era. Magic and Bird saved the NBA from the drudge of the late 70s. Jordan brought the NBA to a new level. He spurred the beginning of globalization of basketball as well as being the pioneer to the vast commercialism of professional athletics. He singlehandly raised Nike from the ashes and into the top echelon of sports apparel. Even in the incipient days of globalism, Michael Jordan was the second most recognized name after Jesus Christ. He was a legend, a symbol of something greater than the game of basketball. Kobe Bryant simply does not have the opportunity to play the savior of the sport. NBA is already arguably the number three sport in this nation. Global basketball progression is only gaining momentum. Unless some player projects the NBA past MLB or NFL in popularity, he simply cannot have the same magnificence and influence that Jordan had. 
I remember when my cousin, who lived in China, asked me to send him as many Jordan clippings from magazines as possible. Everytime I see a Jordan picture, I would cut it out and send it to him. When I eventually took a trip to China and dropped by his apartment, I saw that all my newspaper/magazine images were posted on his wall. To my amazement, he has never seen a televised Bulls game. Michael Jordan was a legend to him, a name that carried the grandeur of everything he imagined the powerful and affluent United States would be. In his rundown apartment building and with his hole-filled basketball shoes, he can only dream of a place where everyone lived better lives than he. He can only dream of a land where men can fly...


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## alex (Jan 7, 2003)

LW said:


> Right on cue. Here's one right now. ^^



Uhhh, no . . . 

I'm using dominance over his peers, which is partially measured by statistics. Bryant has not reached that level for more than one season. 

I have seen Jordan play on ESPN Classic, and while those are often his best games, he still was a superior player to Bryant.

And Paolo, teams did score more back then, but, why couldn't anyone else light the league on fire, alla MJ?

And for the record, I don't believe in "The Greatest of All-Time" argument. It's impossible to compare someone today to someone that played in the fifties and sixties. I, however, do believe in the "greatest of a generation". MJ clearly was in his, while Kobe Bryant is probably behind TD, Kevin Garnett, and Shaq (although Shaq acts kinda as a bridge between MJ's gen and Bryant's gen).


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

alex said:


> And Paolo, teams did score more back then, but, why couldn't anyone else light the league on fire, alla MJ?


Dominique Wilkins, Karl Malone, Bernard King, George Gervin, Larry Bird, Hakeem Olajuwon, Adrian Dantley, David Robinson, Alex English, Mark Aguirre...

The key word here is consistency.

A bunch of people scored like crazy back then. Guys like Tom Chambers, Michael Adams, Kiki Vandweghe, Pat Ewing, Charles Barkley, and severall others had monster years, scoring-wise. But only a few could do it consistently.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

The question isn't (or shouldn't be) whether Kobe has achieved the title of great of all time but whether he's as good or better offensively than Jordan. Kobe has a truly amazing offensive repetoire and is now a deadeye shooter from anywhere on the court. This shouldn't be a question of legacy and overall greatness, it should be who is the more talented and skilled scorer.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

alex said:


> Uhhh, no . . .
> 
> *I have seen Jordan play on ESPN Classic*, and while those are often his best games, he still was a superior player to Bryant.


Thanks for disproving yourself. You are using HAND PICKED games to compare to Kobe's everyday game? You realize Kobe's best performances like 50/8/8 or 81/x/x will be on ESPN classic as well right?


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

SkywalkerAC said:


> The question isn't (or shouldn't be) whether Kobe has achieved the title of great of all time but whether he's as good or better offensively than Jordan. Kobe has a truly amazing offensive repetoire and is now a deadeye shooter from anywhere on the court. This shouldn't be a question of legacy and overall greatness, it should be who is the more talented and skilled scorer.


Agreed.

And like I said, I love Jordan, but he played in an era where people didn't put an emphasis on defense. He torched guys like Craig Ehlo and John Starks night in and night out. These are guys who had a fraction of Jordan's athleticism and pales in comparison to guys who play the game today. Games back then were high scoring and easily avged over 100ppg (don't have the numbers with me now). Basically if you want to know what Kobe can average back in the 90s, just see what Kobe can score vs. the Phoenix suns, because they have a comparable ppg and defensive philosophy. Hand-checking, while allowed, is hardly as great a factor as people are making it out to be (watch the Bulls vs Celtics when Jordan got his 63. He was getting floaters and jump shots all night)

Like I said many times in this thread, certain coaches have come to agree that Kobe has surpassed Jordan in shot making. I'm sure they understand all the intricacies of comparing across eras more than any of us, especially Tex Winter, who worked with both MJ and KB.

While I truly believe MJ will remain as the GOAT even after Kobe retires, there is no denying that Kobe has surpassed Jordan in certain facets of the game, career achievements notwithstanding.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

Kobe's career is MJ's career in reverse


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

LW said:


> Agreed.
> 
> And like I said, I love Jordan, but he played in an era where people didn't put an emphasis on defense.



What!?! Ever hear of the Pistons and the bad boys where they committed harder fouls? DId you also mention the Knicks frontline in the back were Patrick Ewing and Charles Oakley, both great help defenders? Nobody could shut down Jordan and it was an era was an emphasis on defense. You also forget Jordan put an emphasis on defense; he was once defensive player of the year. I think they believed in the phrase "defense wins championships".


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

pippen hates kobe....i remember them going at it when blazers were going against LA in the playoffs i think.......


but yea i agree.............KOBE CAN BE THE BEST TO EVER PLAY THE GAME....





jordans time is over....... just like dr.j's time was.....just like magic and birds time was...........and jordan will soon fall back and kobe will take reign...........lebrons got a good chance at it too


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

ChosenFEW said:


> pippen hates kobe....i remember them going at it when blazers were going against LA in the playoffs i think.......
> 
> 
> but yea i agree.............KOBE CAN BE THE BEST TO EVER PLAY THE GAME....
> ...


yah whenever there is/was a "best player ever" somebody seemed to take the reigns in the next 10 years after they retire.
Russel - Wilt - DrJ/Kareem - Magic/Bird - MJ - Kobe/Lebron?


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

f22egl said:


> What!?! Ever hear of the Pistons and the bad boys where they committed harder fouls? DId you also mention the Knicks frontline in the back were Patrick Ewing and Charles Oakley, both great help defenders? Nobody could shut down Jordan and it was an era was an emphasis on defense. You also forget Jordan put an emphasis on defense; he was once defensive player of the year. I think they believed in the phrase "defense wins championships".


I'll give you Detroit, they played defense. That still doesn't make up for the fact that most of league played under "the best defense is a good offense" philosophy. After having been dominated by Lakers/Celtics of the 80s which were two teams that emphasized more on offense than defense, the league was simply higher scoring than today's league. I will qualify this post by saying that I know little about the early 80s, and I am going on historical numbers and evidence, but to tell me the late 80s and early 90s was about team defense is absurd.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

I think a vital part to this whole argument will be what happens when Kobe loses a little bit of his athleticism, like Jordan did in his last three seasons in Chicago. 

That will go a long way in determining if Kobe is even *close* to being as good as Jordan.

Jordan altered his game brilliantly as he got older with age. It was uncanny how he matched up against the younger uber athletic players in his last years as a Bull.

I think that's a part that gets lost in this whole debate. People are too busy comparing prime Jordan to Prime Kobe, but who cares? Let's see how Kobe continues to do in his prime, and even more important how he then transitions his game as he gets older. I think that was essentially the icing on the cake of Jordan's career.

I do, however, think that when it's all said and done. Kobe won't be nearly as great as Jordan was.

But I still do think that somebody will be soon. I just don't think it's Kobe.

Maybe Lebron. He's got a great chance if he continues the way he is.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Please, Kobe is not even the best player of his generation cuz Shaq and Duncan have that locked.


Silly comment by a rookie announcer.


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## Lynx (Mar 6, 2004)

Air Fly said:


> Silly comment by a rookie announcer.


You might have different tone had Mark Jackson (Nets announcer) said Vince Carter. :bsmile:


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Lynx said:


> You might have different tone had Mark Jackson (Nets announcer) said Vince Carter. :bsmile:


Nope, i'd email him with a "**** you" if he mentioned him.


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

Steve Nash is the greatest basketball player that has ever lived.


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## KingOfTheHeatians (Jul 22, 2005)

Kobe isn't nor will he ever be on Jordan's level. There isn't a single thing he does better than Jordan. Saying Kobe is a better shooter is laughable considering the disparity in field goal %. And let's not confuse being a streaky 3-point shooter with being a great 3-point shooter. Kobe is NOT a great 3-point shooter, just a pretty good one. He has a chance this year to shoot 35% from the 3-point line, which would be the third time in 10 years he's done that. Jordan also did it three times in his first 10 seasons and even shot 42% one year. 

Jordan was a better defensive player (Do you honestly believe Bryant will sniff a DPOY in his career?), a better passer and a better rebounder. Bryant just doesn't have the same level of explosiveness that Jordan had. No one has ever had a better mix of athleticism, intelligence, competitiveness and mental toughness than Jordan. The only guy I can see with the potential to surpass Jordan is Lebron. He can physically dominate in his own way the same way Jordan did. Jordan was quicker but Lebron is much stronger and bigger. 

BTW, teams scored more in the 80s because there were fewer teams and fewer early entries, thus the talent pool wasn't as diluted, not because teams didn't play defense.


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## TP3 (Jan 26, 2003)

Very well said, King! I couldn't agree more.


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## D.J. (Mar 9, 2006)

Mark Jackson needs to get his head out of his ***. First of all, Kobe is not a team player. He chucks constantly and if he only scores 25, the Lakers lose. With Mike, even if he scored 25, he had 8 or 9 rebounds and 7 or 8 assists. Even Wilt Chamberlain was more dominant than Kobe will ever be.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

D.J. said:


> Mark Jackson needs to get his head out of his ***. First of all, Kobe is not a team player. He chucks constantly and if he only scores 25, the Lakers lose. With Mike, even if he scored 25, he had 8 or 9 rebounds and 7 or 8 assists. Even Wilt Chamberlain was more dominant than Kobe will ever be.



First you say Kobe is a chucker (which he isn't), than you say If Kobe scores less than 25 the Lakers lose. I'm not getting your logic here. You say Kobe will never be more dominant than Wilt, is that supposed to be a bad thing?


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## gorilla_unlt (May 6, 2005)

:laugh: @ Mark JAckson


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## STUCKEY! (Aug 31, 2005)

Mark Jackson is a idoit


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Mark Jackson is right and if you don't believe it now, you will eventually.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

IV said:


> Mark Jackson is right and if you don't believe it now, you will eventually.


Notice how everyone who is dogging on Kobe is holding on to something? Something they deem precious? They defend Jordan with their blind lives. 

At first it was pointing out Jordan statistics - entire posts littered with accomplishments and hard numbers posted to trump any efforts by Kobe. 3 rings at age 24 was compared to 6 rings at age 35, 81 was compared to 63, Pippen was compared to Odom.

Now that Kobe is turning heads regardless, they instead choose to trash on Kobe. Forget about Jordan, they just go straight for the insults. He's a chucker. He makes his teammates worse. He is selfish. He broke up a dynasty. He can't do this. He won't do that. And at the end of the day, they know none of it is true.

It was the same way when Jordan was coming up back in the 80s.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

Kobe's legacy will depend on whether or not he wins a championship without the Big Fella.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

LW said:


> Notice how everyone who is dogging on Kobe is holding on to something? Something they deem precious? They defend Jordan with their blind lives.
> 
> At first it was pointing out Jordan statistics - entire posts littered with accomplishments and hard numbers posted to trump any efforts by Kobe. 3 rings at age 24 was compared to 6 rings at age 35, 81 was compared to 63, Pippen was compared to Odom.
> 
> ...


Real Talk

and like the guy who posted behind you said, Kobe's legacy will depend on the titles. It's like that for all players, should Kobe go on to win another 3 titles and match Jordan's total, I think it will be a great debate, at that point, as to who is the greatest of all time.


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## alex (Jan 7, 2003)

LW said:


> Thanks for disproving yourself. You are using HAND PICKED games to compare to Kobe's everyday game? You realize Kobe's best performances like 50/8/8 or 81/x/x will be on ESPN classic as well right?


I said "while those might be his best games . . ." so I take those performances with a grain of salt . . . anyhow, not all of those games are shown because Jordan dominated, but because they simply were great games.

I also remember him from his later Bulls days, and him at 34-36 was at a very very similar player to Kobe Bryant today.

Paolo . . . you're absolutely correct, there where many great scorers, but none at MJ's level (consistently above thirty point per game). I think we agree on this.


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## Jorbroni (Nov 24, 2004)

> Now that Kobe is turning heads regardless, they instead choose to trash on Kobe. Forget about Jordan, they just go straight for the insults.


That because Kobe/Laker fans like yourself are always trashing MJ legacy just to make Kobe look better. How many times have we heard Kobe fans say that Kobe was better than MJ in scoring, ball handling, pissing, break dancing, etc. Then you guys will try to down grade MJ scoring accomplishments by attacking the defense played in his era. It gets really irritating because alot of kobe fans are very young and will not be able to appreciate MJ's game like alot of us did. 



> He's a chucker. He makes his teammates worse. He is selfish. He broke up a dynasty. He can't do this. He won't do that. And at the end of the day, they know none of it is true.


What part is not true?
*He's a chucker* = Kobe has been giving the freedom to shoot at will, and that he did. 
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Field Goal Attempts(2147.0)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Points Per 48 Minutes(41.3)
Ranks #3 in the NBA in Three-Point Field Goal Attempts(508.0)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Field-Goal Attempts Per 48 Minutes(31.73)

*He makes his teammates worse* = Well he sure in hell did not make them better. How many times have you watch a game and heard a commentator say the lakers look timid when Kobe is on the floor but play at a better flow when he is not. (Steve Kerr, Doug Collins)

*He is selfish* = Read Phil Jackson book.

*He broke up the Dynasty* = Read Phil Jackson book. 

For those who don't know who Phil Jackson is, he is the coach of the lakers... :biggrin: 




> It was the same way when Jordan was coming up back in the 80s.


Actually no it is not. MJ listen to Phil and he did what he ask. Can you even recall how many times MJ broke a play to show boat. Also, MJ help build a dynasty while Kobe help destroy one.


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## Unique (Apr 13, 2005)

Jorbroni said:


> That because Kobe/Laker fans like yourself are always trashing MJ legacy just to make Kobe look better. How many times have we heard Kobe fans say that Kobe was better than MJ in scoring, ball handling, pissing, break dancing, etc. Then you guys will try to down grade MJ scoring accomplishments by attacking the defense played in his era. It gets really irritating because alot of kobe fans are very young and will not be able to appreciate MJ's game like alot of us did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Im a Kobe fan and i dont trash MJ, And you sir are wrong about the dynasty being broken up .Im not even sure YOU read the book. Shaq wanted more money...Owner wouldnt give...End of story.


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

Mark Jackson offered no validity when he made that claim. as far as i can tell, Mark Jackson has no point at all.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Jorbroni said:


> That because Kobe/Laker fans like yourself are always trashing MJ legacy just to make Kobe look better. How many times have we heard Kobe fans say that Kobe was better than MJ in scoring, ball handling, pissing, break dancing, etc. Then you guys will try to down grade MJ scoring accomplishments by attacking the defense played in his era. It gets really irritating because alot of kobe fans are very young and will not be able to appreciate MJ's game like alot of us did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would be the last one to piss on MJ's legacy. But to deny that Kobe has surpassed Jordan in certain aspects of the game is just blindness. Oh and 27 shots looks pretty tame compared to 28 don't you agree?

Face it, Jordan was known as a chucker (although the word didn't exist at that time, IIRC).

Also, please read the ****ing book before you say ****. Once again you think you do the research but you don't know anything about what you spew.

I bet you don't know the book is in Diary format do you? do you know Jackson wrote the book on a daily basis, with almost no revision? Do you know he would diss Kobe on one page and praise him in the next? He called Kobe a "callous gunner" but he admitted it was based on the mood he was in.

Is it okay to talk random **** without knowing anything these days?


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

i mean Jordan was great but i dont know...everyone seems to think he is the best of all time....


i think it has to do more with the whole ora that he brought to the game...entertainment

and all that ****...movies...the "Air Jordans" his popularity was huge and even today with his shoes...


someone knows what im ttrying to way....just word it more eloquently someone please!!! hahah


as for Kobe....if Kobe wins more titles than Jordan....why should he not be considered the best 

of all time...???


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

Lakermike05 said:


> Im a Kobe fan and i dont trash MJ, And you sir are wrong about the dynasty being broken up .Im not even sure YOU read the book. Shaq wanted more money...Owner wouldnt give...End of story.


good point man


:clap: :cheers:


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Since this is a Kobe thread, I'll elaborate on what happened with the Shaq ordeal for those are you who are just media zombies.

It started back in 2001-2002 I believe, when Shaq showed up for the season fat and out of shape. Kobe, who was determined to get 3-in-a-row got into it throughout the season with Shaq for not working out. This was really a case of black and white - Kobe worked out during the summer, 6 hours a day minimum starting at 5AM everday and was in the best shape of his life. Shaq was a partygoer and used the excuse of being MDE to relax his way through the summer. The Lakers struggled a bit through the playoffs as a result - Kobe carried them through the Western Conference playoffs and Shaq's dominance was being questioned throughout LA. When the Nets were trumped 4-0, Shaq's dominance was once again seen as unquestionable, resulting in a Finals MVP for Shaq, which arguably should have been Kobe's Finals MVP for carrying them to the finals.

2002-2003-2004 were subsequent disasters. Shaq was even fatter and even slower. His decline had already started but the world knew little about it as the Lakers did a good job of covering in his stead. The Payton/Malone side-show always turned attention from the fact that Shaq was no longer his former self. Kobe frequently got into verbal fights with Shaq, complaining about his lack of leadership and his horrible conditioning. As you all know, Kobe is a gym-rat and could not coexist with anyone lazier than him (unfortunately, everyone is lazier than him)

2 Straight seasons without a ring was enough for the Lakers. When Shaq demanded a contract (shouting "Give me my money mother****er" to the owner in public) entailing $30 million dollars per year until he was age 38. Jerry Buss was furiated. 

Meanwhile, Kobe was through playing with Shaq. He realized the Lakers would never win another ring with Shaq and subsequently annouced free agency. He wanted to stay in LA, however, and preferred going to the Clippers (or the Bulls because he wanted to go to Chi-Town). When Jerry Buss learned of this, he was in shock. He understood the root of Kobe's frustration was Shaq. He also realized Shaq was in decline and would never bring another ring to LA (look at Miami's troubles). He made a choice to keep Kobe and kick out Shaq putting LA into rebuilding mode prematurely.

Did Kobe ruin the Dynasty? The better question is "did Shaq ruin the dynasty?".


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## Jorbroni (Nov 24, 2004)

LW said:


> I would be the last one to piss on MJ's legacy. But to deny that Kobe has surpassed Jordan in certain aspects of the game is just blindness.


You have never once heard me say that Kobe never did anything better than MJ. I said it once and I will say it again, he is a better 3 point shooter and ball handler. What I was addressing was the fact that *many* of you Kobe fans tend to cloak Kobes weaknesses and cloak MJ strengths when comparing the two and thats not right.



LW said:


> Also, please read the ****ing book before you say ****. Once again you think you do the research but you don't know anything about what you spew.
> 
> I bet you don't know the book is in Diary format do you? do you know Jackson wrote the book on a daily basis, with almost no revision? Do you know he would diss Kobe on one page and praise him in the next? He called Kobe a "callous gunner" but he admitted it was based on the mood he was in.
> 
> Is it okay to talk random **** without knowing anything these days?


What your ****ing point. Who gives a **** if he said negative things about Kobe when he was in bad mood. Apparently, something trigger him to say these things about Kobe. I don't think he just wakes up on certain days in a bad mood and just want to piss on Kobe. And where the **** do you come off insulting me. You don't know what I read or what I know. I've been watching the NBA for 20 years. I was able to see MJ play as well as your boy Kobe. I live in LA, so I get to hear alot of **** that you don't. 

If you want backup information for my post I can provide it for you. But don't piss on me because I don't want to wait in line behind you to [strike]toss Kobe's salad.[/strike] _that's inappropriate
_
:kissmy:


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Jorbroni said:


> If you want backup information for my post I can provide it for you. But don't piss on me because I don't want to wait in line behind you to toss Kobe's salad.


Dude, you said not one person picked Lakers to out of the playoffs. You said you did research. I called you out, showing 8/12 ESPN analysts picked Lakers out of the playoffs.

You claim Kobe broke up the dynasty. I provided a story for why he didn't.

You claim Kobe jockers are pissing on Jordan's legacy. You keep bringing up how "no one can even compare". I'm sorry I had to bring up evidence why Kobe "does compare"

I'm not jocking anyone, I just swing at whatever fastballs you're trying to throw. Unfortunately, you're pitching real slow and all your logic is opinion based - not fact.

BTW, This is a Kobe thread. Is it weird that I'm talking about Kobe? So if I talk about Kobe in a Kobe thead I'm a Kobe homer huh? I see how it works.


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## Jorbroni (Nov 24, 2004)

LW said:


> Dude, you said *not one person* picked Lakers to out of the playoffs. You said you did research. I called you out, showing 8/12 ESPN analysts picked Lakers out of the playoffs.


You are so far off from what I said. If you go back to that post, you will see that I clearly said "I could not find one preseason power ranking that had the Lakers not making the playoffs". Which is true, I did not see one, I also provided you the links to my reference. If you want to prove me wrong of this statement then you are more than welcome to go find your source to prove me wrong. Thats what this board is for.



LW said:


> You claim Kobe broke up the dynasty. I provided a story for why he didn't.


I read your post and it made me laugh. Its amazing how you made Kobe look so innocent during the whole thing. You made it look like all Kobe wanted was what was best for the team. You failed to mention how Kobe would just break the offense that Phil wanted to run to go and do his own thing. Payton didn't want to play with him, Shaq didn't want to play with him, Fisher didn't want to play with him. The only people that wanted to play with him was Karl Malone and he turned his back on him because of some childish BS with Karl and Kobe's wife.



LW said:


> You claim Kobe jockers are pissing on Jordan's legacy. You keep bringing up how "no one can even compare". I'm sorry I had to bring up evidence why Kobe "does compare"


There is no comparison to MJ career. I say this all the time, compare their careers when both careers are done.



LW said:


> I'm not jocking anyone, I just swing at whatever fastballs you're trying to throw. Unfortunately, you're pitching real slow and all your logic is opinion based - not fact.


What facts are you basing your logic on. Your previous statement above is opinion base. 90% of your posts are opinion base. Also, for some reason you like to mis read my quotes.



LW said:


> BTW, This is a Kobe thread. Is it weird that I'm talking about Kobe? So if I talk about Kobe in a Kobe thead I'm a Kobe homer huh? I see how it works.


 :thand:


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

Both their egos ruined it.



LW said:


> Did Kobe ruin the Dynasty? The better question is "did Shaq ruin the dynasty?".


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Jorbroni said:


> There is no comparison to MJ career. I say this all the time, compare their careers when both careers are done.


I'll buy the rest of your post. You're right that you said you couldn't find anything - but that's not called research. Research is supposed to be CREDIBLE.

Also I did make Kobe seem innocent, but that's only because it's such a 180 from what the media likes to tell you. Are you going to tell me the media doesn't exaggerate things to get a story?

I never say Kobe's CAREER achievements outweight Jordans. In fact, I said once I believe Kobe will never win 6 rings and 5 MVPs. Jordan's career will always be greater than Kobes.

You have to understand that there is more to a player than their numbers. I'm talking about watching what Kobe does and how his shot-making is clearly surpassing Jordan's. It's something no one thought possible. 

Just because someone doesn't have the numbers doesn't mean they're not great. Just ask Elgin Baylor. 0 Championships, 0 MVPs, 0 Finals MVPs. But ask any knowledgeable NBA fan and they will tell you he was the pioneering black swingman playing back in a time where being black automatically took 5ppg off your stat sheet. He probably faced adversity that made Kobe's trials seem like summer camp. If anything, there would be no Jordan if there were no Elgin. Respect that. Respect the fact that you can be great without an army of "Air" zombies. Also, respect the game and what people today are doing to entertain us. 

Stop taking shots at our current players just because you hold Jordan so highly.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

LW said:


> I'll buy the rest of your post. You're right that you said you couldn't find anything - but that's not called research. Research is supposed to be CREDIBLE.
> 
> Also I did make Kobe seem innocent, but that's only because it's such a 180 from what the media likes to tell you. Are you going to tell me the media doesn't exaggerate things to get a story?
> 
> ...


You are impressive, LW. Repped.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Michael Jordan can have the greater career than Kobe, but why does that mean Kobe can't become a better player?


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Spriggan said:


> Michael Jordan can have the greater career than Kobe, but why does that mean Kobe can't become a better player?


Thank you Spriggan. That's the exact point I always try to make.

And Thanks to PC for the rep.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Just wanted to chime in briefly here... Mark Jackson is from the Bill Walton school of broadcasting. Thank you.


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## Lynx (Mar 6, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> Just wanted to chime in briefly here... Mark Jackson is from the Bill Walton school of broadcasting. Thank you.


Bill Walton is ****ing great. :bsmile: You're welcome!


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## Jorbroni (Nov 24, 2004)

LW said:


> I'll buy the rest of your post. You're right that you said you couldn't find anything - but that's not called research. Research is supposed to be CREDIBLE.
> 
> Also I did make Kobe seem innocent, but that's only because it's such a 180 from what the media likes to tell you. Are you going to tell me the media doesn't exaggerate things to get a story?
> 
> ...


1)  Once again, let me explain. I said that I did some research and I could not find any Preseason Power Rankings that had the lakers out of the playoffs. That doesn't mean that none existed, it just means that *I* couldn't find it. The two major references were ESPN, and yahoo sports with Steve Kerr doing the ranking. Both whom I believe are very credible.

2) I never said that the media wasn't one sided. But I personally believe Kobe had more to do with the destruction of the dynasty than Shaq did. Be realistic, the reason why all the major center pieces of the lakers left was centered around Kobe whether you like it or not. 

3) You say that there is more to a player than their numbers but yet lakers fans talk about how Steve Nash winning the MVP will be a discrace because he average only 19 ppg. :naughty: Hypocracy to the fullest.

4) I have much love for Elgin Baylor, I don't even know why my respect for him was even questioned. As far as the game today ditto. Kobe is a great superstar no doubt about it. I may not like him personally, but you would be a fool not to love his game. However, I do have a problem with people saying he will be greater than MJ. You are giving him a paycheck before he earn it. I have no problem with anyone saying he can be, which is true. Hell Lebron, Wade, Mayo, Gay they all can be greater than MJ but like with KObe you just don't know yet. 



> Stop taking shots at our current players just because you hold Jordan so highly.


What shots have I taken. I personally think that LBJ has *the most potential* to be the GOAT and he is the youngest out of all the young superstars.


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## Jorbroni (Nov 24, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> Michael Jordan can have the greater career than Kobe, but why does that mean Kobe can't become a better player?


Because what you accomplish in your career defines your greatness as a player. Would we be having this conversation if Kobe never won any rings. That was the major factor in seperating Mcgrady and Kobe in terms of being the better player. Kobe won at a higher level.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

I agree that it's both Shaq AND Kobe's fault that the dynasty crumbled. However, I just think Kobe had more to do with that meltdown than Shaq. Not that Shaq isn't childish sometimes, but most players who played with him like him as a person. He's a 7,1 320 pound teddy bear. You don't get movie roles as lovable genies with Kobe's image. I think if you respect Shaq, he will respect you back. Dwayne Wade is a perfect example. Dwayne is mind-boggling in his modesty. Shaq loved Dwayne right away and had no problems whatsoever deferring a large part of the offense to him. I'm sure if Kobe showed HALF of the modesty and level-headedness that Dwayne showed, Shaq would have been happy to stay.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Jorbroni said:


> Because what you accomplish in your career defines your greatness as a player. Would we be having this conversation if Kobe never won any rings. That was the major factor in seperating Mcgrady and Kobe in terms of being the better player. Kobe won at a higher level.


it's possible to be a better player for a shorter period of time and have a lesser overall career.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

bronx43 said:


> I agree that it's both Shaq AND Kobe's fault that the dynasty crumbled. However, I just think Kobe had more to do with that meltdown than Shaq. Not that Shaq isn't childish sometimes, but most players who played with him like him as a person. He's a 7,1 320 pound teddy bear. You don't get movie roles as lovable genies with Kobe's image. I think if you respect Shaq, he will respect you back. Dwayne Wade is a perfect example. Dwayne is mind-boggling in his modesty. Shaq loved Dwayne right away and had no problems whatsoever deferring a large part of the offense to him. I'm sure if Kobe showed HALF of the modesty and level-headedness that Dwayne showed, Shaq would have been happy to stay.


Kobe sacrificed a lot during their championship era, Tex Winter confirmed this...the last year they played together The whole coaching staff asked Shaq to let Kobe takeover and Shaq refused. A lot of talk about Kobe and Shaq feuding, the bigger feud is Shaq and LA management yelling and embarassing at your team's owner doesnt help either especially if he handsomely paid you throughout your career as a Laker.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Jordan will have the better career, but Kobe is a better baller.


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## STUCKEY! (Aug 31, 2005)

The only thing Kobe does better then Jordan is three point shooting...
Ha! Now i will leave this thread before the Kobe Lovers attack me muahahahaha


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## Arti (Nov 6, 2004)

Until Kobe is the clear first option on a dynasty team, I'm placing Jordan ahead of him. Kobe's seflishness isn't earning him points either...


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## Tyrellaphonte (Feb 21, 2004)

Kobe is already as good of a scorer and defender that Jordan was, and a better three point shooter... all it takes is time and he'll get the fame and recognition that he deserves.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Kobe can't lock down an elite NBA player like Jordan could. Hence Jordan's DPOTY award. Not to mention all the All NBa 1st defensive teams Jordan made. Kobe isn't nearly as efficient shooting the basketball as Jordan was. Also keep in mind that one great season for Kobe via stats dosen't make him a better offensive player than Jordan. Jordan did what Kobe is doing this season a whole truck load of times. Let's wait another 10 years, and see how Kobes career comes to an end before we start annointing him or anyone else the greatest of all time. It would be a bit premature to say so. Guys like Bryant, LeBron, or Wade could go down with a serious injury, and then game over.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

23AJ said:


> Kobe can't lock down an elite NBA player like Jordan could. Hence Jordan's DPOTY award. Not to mention all the All NBa 1st defensive teams Jordan made. Kobe isn't nearly as efficient shooting the basketball as Jordan was. Also keep in mind that one great season for Kobe via stats dosen't make him a better offensive player than Jordan. Jordan did what Kobe is doing this season a whole truck load of times. Let's wait another 10 years, and see how Kobes career comes to an end before we start annointing him or anyone else the greatest of all time. It would be a bit premature to say so. Guys like Bryant, LeBron, or Wade could go down with a serious injury, and then game over.


 :yes:


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

Man, I think some people forget how great MJ was.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

1 season where Kobe is finally living up to his fans hype and we see him being regarded as better than the GOAT.

Foolish.

I am not saying Kobe isnt comparable, but his first MVP-type season, people are all over his jocks. He is no doubt today's best scorer, but if you have to compare him to MJ's 10+ years of 30+ ppg and basically being the best player unanimously during most of that time... then its simply a no brainer.

Kobe a better three pointer, thats about it. In every facet, Jordan is better, again, Jordan demolished good teams. People will bring up 81 points again and again, but Jordan didnt have to score 81 to prove how much he dominated. Just watch Jordan demolish *good* teams time and time again.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/index

When Kobe Bryant's playing career is over, he will be recognized as better than Michael Jordan.

True 22%
False 78%

Love me or Hate me.

California 47% True 53% False


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## wwl (Apr 18, 2006)

thug_immortal8 said:


> Why do we continue to use these dumb award to judge players, hey look at this:
> 
> Finals MVP
> 
> ...


muhahaha, very funny example


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

people really did forget the impact Jordan had not only on the game, but the world. nothing is comparable to what he has accomplished for himself, his franchise, and basketball. 

It was MJ who popularized the word "clutch" in sports. MJ did to the chicago bulls what no single man has ever done for a franchize before. even today when people think bulls, they think MJ. MJ gave the world a reason to watch. Magic said it best to the effect of "even if he goes 1 for 30...you would watch because that one he hit would probably be the best play you ever seen in your life." nobody is a better shot maker than MJ. ppl make circus shots today every now and then. michael made then every game. no one demands fear and respect like mike does when he walks on the basketball court with his hands on his hips, chewing gum with that look in his eyes. 

ive known people who stopped wacthing basketball when jordan retired. they said the game wasn't the same. who else can make a shot on the brink of playoff elimination at the buzzer, thus killing...literally KILLING a franchize for almost a decade? i'm not even talking numbers in this arguement, because the numbers alone would kill it. im talking about the impact he had on the game. 

yes he had haters, but he was without a doubt the best, and everyone knew it. just like shaq had his haters, but everyone knew he was the man. The difference between kobe and michael is their impact on their teammates too. like someone said, mike built a franchise, not destroyed it. when the bulls broke up, all his teammates still spoke highly of him. they are forever bonded by his personality and his impact on them. thats why pip was offended at marc jacksons comments. thats why Kerr still speaks highly of mike. Kobe's teammates from the threepeat either dont like him, dont care, or dont wanna play with him. he has a negative impact on his teammates and coaches. 

like someone said, michael jordan was basketball. just imagine how the game would be if there was no mike...there would be no vince, no kobe, no t-mac, no lebron, no wade. there would be no basketball.

if kobe was a better scorer than jordan then why doesn't he score more points? thats what it boils down to. michael scores more, at a better fg%, while doing the intangibles. 

plus, marc jackson only said that because MJ jumped right over him to thrown down an alley-oop with the foul...there is an MO to the hate people.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

thug_immortal8 said:


> Why do we continue to use these dumb award to judge players, hey look at this:
> 
> Finals MVP
> 
> ...


thats not a very good arguement. the reason why it looks bad when you do it, is because you only use the MVP award to judge those players up there. but the other people were using all the awards that each has attained. one award may not tell how great or not someone is in relation to another...but the accumulative total of different awards does say something. so while someone who winds MVP may not be a better player than someone who hasn't won one (like Nash and Kobe)...someone who has won multiple MVPs, DPOYs, All defensive teams, all NBA teams, finals MVPs, and other accolades is absolutely better than someone who has not


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## Leviathon1121 (Jan 28, 2005)

I am still trying to figure out what aspects of the game Bryant is better that. People say he is a better shooter, on what basis? Jordan was primarily a jumpshooter later in his career just like Bryant is now, and he still shot it at a higher percentage. Why does Jordan get penalized because he was smart enough to get himself better shots rather then jacking up a contested three? Jordans faded on his shots A LOT more then Bryant ever has, anyone who watched an aging Jordan knows he would fall down and slide on the ground after a lot of his shots because he faded back at such an extreme angle. When is the last time we saw Bryant do that? Yet, Bryant fans are always quick to try and point out that their boy takes tougher shots in some retarded attempt to excuse his FG%.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

1 Penny said:


> I am not saying Kobe isnt comparable, but his first MVP-type season, people are all over his jocks.


This is his first MVP type season, yes, but it's not the first year he has been an MVP type player. It was a popular opinion for a long time that Shaq and Kobe were the best two players in the league. They kept each other from winning MVP's, and that's why they only have one between them. Jordan had Chicago in his pocket from day one. Kobe didn't have that. He came up alongside one of the best three players in the game every year. 

Not saying Kobe is better, as good or even close to being as good as Jordan, but their situations are entirely different and should be treated as such. I don't even like comparing anyone to Jordan. It gets old. I'd rather compare Kobe to Jerry West, the man responsible for getting him a Lakers uniform to begin with.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Leviathon1121 said:


> I am still trying to figure out what aspects of the game Bryant is better that. People say he is a better shooter, on what basis? Jordan was primarily a jumpshooter later in his career just like Bryant is now, and he still shot it at a higher percentage. Why does Jordan get penalized because he was smart enough to get himself better shots rather then jacking up a contested three? Jordans faded on his shots A LOT more then Bryant ever has, anyone who watched an aging Jordan knows he would fall down and slide on the ground after a lot of his shots because he faded back at such an extreme angle. When is the last time we saw Bryant do that? Yet, Bryant fans are always quick to try and point out that their boy takes tougher shots in some retarded attempt to excuse his FG%.


I'll be quick with this because I have a feeling it's been repeated several times. FG% and stats don't tell the whole story. When you watch the game and see how Kobe creates his shots inspite of certain factors, you get the idea that Kobe is a better shot-maker.

To compare, Kobe has adopted Old Bull's game, not Young Bull's game, which DWade is now sporting. Old Bull shot: .411, .495, .486, and .465. The dramatic increase from .411 to .495 was when Jordan perfected the fadeaway and got back to tip-top NBA shape. Even though Jordan was the best shooter he ever was in his career at this point, he still averaged a lower % than Young Bull. Why? Was it because he sucked? No it's because he played his position in the triangle with a little more to his repetoire. He was less headstrong and more patient with the game. He drew less fouls, he made less dunks/layups, but he was really effective despite low FG% because he was able to do it without going freelance and messing up the spacing. This was because he commanded his sweet spots so well, even at age 32. These are reasons why a player's game cannot be summarized into a number.

But to continue, Kobe's numbers have always been around .460 as an initiator. This is his FIRST year playing Jordan's position (depsite what Steve Kerr keeps telling the public) in the triangle and Lamar is now playing Kobe's old position. Kobe, so far is shooting .450. Not as good as Jordan, but lots of his shots come from the three. Also, because he has no one to dish to, Kobe is frequently calling for shots with less than 4 seconds left on the clock (a big basketball no-no) and it kills his percentage. Basically, the reason why people are saying Kobe Bryant is a better scorer than MJ is because 1) He commands a wider arsenal of attacks, 2) He's able to balance that with an OK but not ideal fg%, 3) He is able to do it without Pippen/Kerr/etc. and 4) Because people who have worked with both Jordan and Kobe are saying it (who I'd trust over any internet poster like me).

I'll conceed that it's what you can call "excuses". If you're a hard numbers guy, Kobe's stats won't jump out at you. But then again, in pure numbers, Shawn Marion this year is greater than MJ because he gets his 20 ppg to go along with 10 rpg at 52% fg and almost 33% 3s. Since players don't live in vacuums, I'll trust what I see on the court over what I see on paper.


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## aNgelo5 (Oct 24, 2005)

neoxsupreme said:


> Mark Jackson during halftime of the Suns @ Lakers game said that Kobe will go down as the greatest basketball player ever & Pippen was beside him & took offense to that.


Yeah I know I heard him say that he was going to be a better player than Jordan I don't know will just have to see about that...


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## Jorbroni (Nov 24, 2004)

LW said:


> I'll be quick with this because I have a feeling it's been repeated several times. FG% and stats don't tell the whole story. When you watch the game and see how Kobe creates his shots inspite of certain factors, you get the idea that Kobe is a better shot-maker.
> 
> To compare, Kobe has adopted Old Bull's game, not Young Bull's game, which DWade is now sporting. Old Bull shot: .411, .495, .486, and .465. The dramatic increase from .411 to .495 was when Jordan perfected the fadeaway and got back to tip-top NBA shape. Even though Jordan was the best shooter he ever was in his career at this point, he still averaged a lower % than Young Bull. Why? Was it because he sucked? No it's because he played his position in the triangle with a little more to his repetoire. He was less headstrong and more patient with the game. He drew less fouls, he made less dunks/layups, but he was really effective despite low FG% because he was able to do it without going freelance and messing up the spacing. This was because he commanded his sweet spots so well, even at age 32. These are reasons why a player's game cannot be summarized into a number.
> 
> ...


For starters that season when his FG% was .411 was when he came back from retirement playing baseball. And that was only 17 games. Second, Jordan perfected his fadeaway way before 95-96 season. You can go back to their second championship season when he really perfected that fadeaway. As the years went by His FG% started decreasing because of age. He didn't have the lift like he use to when he was young. Kobe is 27 years old shooting 45% what will he be shooting at 32 when he start loosing his speed and jumping ability? You say that Kobe was a better 3 point shooter, this might be true but we don't know besause MJ focus more on his mid range game then standing outside shooting three. He left that to his assasins Paxson, Hodges, Armstrong, Tucker, and Kerr. For his career he shot 33% from three which is very good. He just didn't shoot as many as Kobe. (Kobe career Avg 3 att 237 per year; MJ 118 per year)

Jordan is the only player I know that can adapt to any defensive situation. Game one of the 1992 finals when they gave MJ the three, look what happen there. I believe he hit 6 three pointers in a row in the first half. Also, you have to acknowledge that MJ's hangtime was so great, defenders couldn't match up with him because they would simply come back down to earth before MJ would release his shot. 

His fadeaway was more superior to Kobe because MJ's vertical was so high that it made it unstoppable. MJ was by far better at scoring in the post than Kobe was. I think that he was better at attacking the rim then Kobe. Alot of people this season talk about the cup cake punishment that Kobe endure this season. Man, you guys really should have seen the punishment Jordan was getting when he attack the rim. Keep in mind this is before flagrant fouls were enforce. You use the excuse that Jordan had Pippen, Kerr to defer to. Well if you recall, pippen didn't come into his own until the season they played the lakers in the finals. Remember the migraine headaches Pippen got in the detroit series? Beside Kobe had Shaq, Horry, Fisher, and Shaw for most of his career and he still took crazy shots while shooting only around 44%. I know I heard many say that he is only 27 that will change. Well I disagree, if you have a 10 year vet who been coach by the best all his career and played in 4 NBA finals still making really bad shot selections then that is never going to change.

One more thing, I agree with you when you say that you will trust people who work with Jordan and Kobe opinion over any poster. But why can't we trust Pippen's opinion over Marc Jackson. I agree with you when you say that stats do not tell the whole story but why when Kobe fans bring up debates like this they always focus on the 81 point game, the 63 points in 3 quarters, the 40 points over nine games? Isn't that just the same? You are completely right when you say stats don't tell the whole story. That is why I feel that This new genration of Kobe fans will never be able to appreciate MJ career because they never seen him play in his prime. The only Jordan they can recall is the Wizard's Jordan.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Kobe can't lock down an elite NBA player like Jordan could. Hence Jordan's DPOTY award. Not to mention all the All NBa 1st defensive teams Jordan made.



Kobe made a few first team all nba defensive teams, and he was locking down players like Allen Iverson. Kobe once shut him down for an entire half of basketball, don't think he can't lock down cause he can.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

IV said:


> Kobe made a few first team all nba defensive teams, and he was locking down players like Allen Iverson. Kobe once shut him down for an entire half of basketball, don't think he can't lock down cause he can.


 When? Are you sure it wasn't the rat himself, Mr. Lue?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

f22egl said:


> When? Are you sure it wasn't the rat himself, Mr. Lue?


Not sure which year, but it was during the dynasty and no it wasn't ratboy. Ratboy played admirable defense on Iverson in the Finals, but AI still cooked him. Kobe held him scoreless.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Jorbroni said:


> For starters that season when his FG% was .411 was when he came back from retirement playing baseball. And that was only 17 games. Second, Jordan perfected his fadeaway way before 95-96 season. You can go back to their second championship season when he really perfected that fadeaway. As the years went by His FG% started decreasing because of age. He didn't have the lift like he use to when he was young. Kobe is 27 years old shooting 45% what will he be shooting at 32 when he start loosing his speed and jumping ability? You say that Kobe was a better 3 point shooter, this might be true but we don't know besause MJ focus more on his mid range game then standing outside shooting three. He left that to his assasins Paxson, Hodges, Armstrong, Tucker, and Kerr. For his career he shot 33% from three which is very good. He just didn't shoot as many as Kobe. (Kobe career Avg 3 att 237 per year; MJ 118 per year)
> 
> Jordan is the only player I know that can adapt to any defensive situation. Game one of the 1992 finals when they gave MJ the three, look what happen there. I believe he hit 6 three pointers in a row in the first half. Also, you have to acknowledge that MJ's hangtime was so great, defenders couldn't match up with him because they would simply come back down to earth before MJ would release his shot.
> 
> ...


fg% has become an irrelevant measure of scoring efficiency because of the 3 point shot.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

IV said:


> Not sure which year, but it was during the dynasty and no it wasn't ratboy. Ratboy played admirable defense on Iverson in the Finals, but AI still cooked him. Kobe held him scoreless.


Lindsay Hunter spent time defending him in that finals series I think.


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## STUCKEY! (Aug 31, 2005)

Lindsey Hunter Is the Best Defending pg in the Nba still to this day


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

SHEED! said:


> Lindsey Hunter Is the Best Defending pg in the Nba still to this day


Maybe not *the best* but yes I agree that he is 1 of the better defenders @ his position. Very underrated defensive player. He can keep up w/ the quickest point guards in the league & @ his age is pretty admirable.


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Jorbroni said:


> One more thing, I agree with you when you say that you will trust people who work with Jordan and Kobe opinion over any poster. But why can't we trust Pippen's opinion over Marc Jackson. I agree with you when you say that stats do not tell the whole story but why when Kobe fans bring up debates like this they always focus on the 81 point game, the 63 points in 3 quarters, the 40 points over nine games? Isn't that just the same? You are completely right when you say stats don't tell the whole story. That is why I feel that This new genration of Kobe fans will never be able to appreciate MJ career because they never seen him play in his prime. The only Jordan they can recall is the Wizard's Jordan.


Hey Jorbroni, glad to see you're still fighting on 

Pippen agreed with Marc Jackson off the air btw. This was made clear on ESPN Radio.

Pippen said he thought Kobe had a very good chance to surpass Jordan, but he also made it clear he would not commit to it on the air, on national tv, for obvious reasons.


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## Leviathon1121 (Jan 28, 2005)

Good posting LW, but KFLO just basically responded with what irritates me. He has his mind set that Bryant is a better offensive player, no matter how badly Jordan's numbers beat Bryant's, simply because he can throw out the excuse "Bryant shoots a lot of threes." In my opinion that is a horrible arguement.
It penalizes Jordan for being a more efficient, hence better offensive player. I am sorry, but taking difficult shots that you really should not be taking does not make you a better offensive player, it detracts from it.

Even IF bryant is on the same level as Jordan as for as outside shooting, Jordan's post game was far superior, and his ability to finish in the paint on drives with contact was also far superior. These are part of an offensive game, and are part of being a scorer, which in my opinion makes it impossible for Bryant to be considered a better offensive player at this point in time.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Leviathon1121 said:


> Good posting LW, but KFLO just basically responded with what irritates me. He has his mind set that Bryant is a better offensive player, no matter how badly Jordan's numbers beat Bryant's, simply because he can throw out the excuse "Bryant shoots a lot of threes." In my opinion that is a horrible arguement.
> It penalizes Jordan for being a more efficient, hence better offensive player. I am sorry, but taking difficult shots that you really should not be taking does not make you a better offensive player, it detracts from it.
> 
> Even IF bryant is on the same level as Jordan as for as outside shooting, Jordan's post game was far superior, and his ability to finish in the paint on drives with contact was also far superior. These are part of an offensive game, and are part of being a scorer, which in my opinion makes it impossible for Bryant to be considered a better offensive player at this point in time.


my point wasn't to ignore efficiency, just to use a better measure, which would be ts%. everything else you read into my post simply wasn't there.


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## Jorbroni (Nov 24, 2004)

LW said:


> Hey Jorbroni, glad to see you're still fighting on
> 
> Pippen agreed with Marc Jackson off the air btw. This was made clear on ESPN Radio.
> 
> Pippen said he thought Kobe had a *very good chance* to surpass Jordan, but he also made it clear he would not commit to it on the air, on national tv, for obvious reasons.


 :laugh: Hey I'm stubborn. That was confirm by my wife.

Anyway. There is a big difference between someone saying that a player has *a very good chance *and a player *will be*. Let put it another way. Suppose Marc Jackson said that Lebron will be the greatest ever? You will have a problem with it...why??? But let say that Jackson said that Lebron has a very good chance of surpassing Jordan. You wouldn't have a problem with that right? The point I making is that Pippen didn't have a problem with him saying he has a chance, but he did have a problem with him saying he will be the greatest.

I said it before and I'll say it again, he's right. Kobe has a very good chance but so does LBJ, Wade, Gay, Mayo, etc...


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