# Ben Wallace on Artest winning DPOY



## froggyvk

“Congratulations to those guys,” Wallace said, *“they put on a hell of a campaign.” *

*“I probably would have voted for him if it was about campaigning. If it’s about the numbers, the numbers don’t lie." *

*“They campaigned hard for him and I guess they got what they wanted.* But I think everybody knows that ain’t what it’s about. It ain’t about going out and campaigning, it’s about going out and playing and letting the numbers speak for themselves.” 

NOTE: Wallace, who was the only player in the league to finish in the top 10 in rebounds, blocked shots and steals.

As long as Ben is pissed and plays on showing Artest who the real DPOY is in the ECF, I'm happy. You can campaign for DPOY, but you can't campaign for a championship ring.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>froggyvk</b>!
> “Congratulations to those guys,” Wallace said, *“they put on a hell of a campaign.” *
> 
> *“I probably would have voted for him if it was about campaigning. If it’s about the numbers, the numbers don’t lie." *
> 
> *“They campaigned hard for him and I guess they got what they wanted.* But I think everybody knows that ain’t what it’s about. It ain’t about going out and campaigning, it’s about going out and playing and letting the numbers speak for themselves.”
> 
> NOTE: Wallace, who was the only player in the league to finish in the top 10 in rebounds, blocked shots and steals.
> 
> As long as Ben is pissed and plays on showing Artest who the real DPOY is in the ECF, I'm happy. You can campaign for DPOY, but you can't campaign for a championship ring.


This pretty much sums it up for you:











I can make it in avatar form if you'd like


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## nmuman

> Originally posted by <b>froggyvk</b>!
> 
> 
> *“I probably would have voted for him if it was about campaigning. If it’s about the numbers, the numbers don’t lie." *


BOOM-SHAK-A-LAK!!!

You tell em Ben!


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## reHEATed

damn, i never thought Ben was the whiner type...guess i was wrong


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## nmuman

Certainly doesn't sound like crying or whining to me. He was stating facts. Since when does that parlay into whining?


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## reHEATed

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> Certainly doesn't sound like crying or whining to me. He was stating facts. Since when does that parlay into whining?


what facts..i should of won and he shouldnt of. Thats opinion


he only won cus he compaigned. Its not right..bo ho ho

the whole thing is whining. 

especially when Carlisle capmpaiged for him a couple years ago as well. I kno not to Artests extent, but they still campaigned. He should just give Artests his props, and come out and win it next year. Ben should just accept it, and beat up on the pacers in the ecf

And i want to respond about his numbers statement. Defense isnt only about numbers. Its about shutting down your opponent, and Artest is the BEST shutdown defender in the league


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> damn, i never thought Ben was the whiner type...guess i was wrong


I know, I used to have a huge amount of respect for him, comming so far from being undrafted, and he used to be one of my favorite players, but now he's not.


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## Ghost

I like the way Ben Plays but Ron Artest derserved this award a lot more than ben did this year, Ben guards Power Foward and Centers while Ron Artest Guards Small Foward and Shooting Guards, They are a lot harder to guard in most cases than Power Fowards/Centers(their are exceptions like Shaq and Elton Brand) he also played a lot better off ball defense like Bruce Bowen does. If Rick Carlsile(sp?) did campaign for Ron Artest is just seems to me like the same thing he did with Ben Wallace the first year he won Defensive Player of the Year.


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## Tragedy

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> damn, i never thought Ben was the whiner type...guess i was wrong



for real.... very disappointing...

i wonder where are all the guys who love screaming that you can affect the game with more than just filling up a stat sheet.


bout time Artest got his due.


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## froggyvk

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> I know, I used to have a huge amount of respect for him, comming so far from being undrafted, and he used to be one of my favorite players, but now he's not.


Dude, why do you even post in the Pistons forum? Your posts brings nothing to the discussion, and every one has to do with bashing of the Pistons in some way.


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## jvanbusk

You guys have got to be kidding me. Are we forgetting the way your beloved Ron Artest acted last year after he didn't win? Honestly.


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## reHEATed

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> You guys have got to be kidding me. Are we forgetting the way your beloved Ron Artest acted last year after he didn't win? Honestly.


well everybody already knows how he acts. Its different for Ben to act this way


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## froggyvk

Well Ben's asked what he thinks about Artest winning DPOY, what's he going to say? "I love Ron Artest, I love the Indiana Pacers, Ron Artest is the best defensive player in the history of western civilization." Right...Ben Wallace knows he's the best defensive player, he's going to speak out. You expect him to keep it inside, or to say he thinks Artest is better? Please.


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## jvanbusk

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> well everybody already knows how he acts. Its different for Ben to act this way


He's not whining, he's telling it like it is.


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## reHEATed

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> He's not whining, he's telling it like it is.


heres part of his quote



> It ain’t about going out and campaigning


so if he thinks this, should his 2 DPOY not have occured because Carlisle compaigned for him as well. 

and how is this not whining. Hes basically saying he should of won, and artest shouldnt have, bringing in numbers even though defense isnt about numbers, and critisizng the same thing that Carlisle basically did for him (as i said before, not on the same level. I undertsand that).



> Originally posted by <b>froggyvk</b>!
> Well Ben's asked what he thinks about Artest winning DPOY, what's he going to say? "I love Ron Artest, I love the Indiana Pacers, Ron Artest is the best defensive player in the history of western civilization." Right...Ben Wallace knows he's the best defensive player, he's going to speak out. You expect him to keep it inside, or to say he thinks Artest is better? Please.


i expect him not to whine, and take it out on artest and the pacers when they match up later on.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> He's not whining, he's telling it like it is.


Exactly. Ron has been whining since this time last year. The only thing that shut him up about it was his winning it yesterday. Think about it, everytime Ron was on TV somebody was talking about how he deserves the DPOY award. Even though Ben was the reigning champ, it was Ron's award to lose from the beginning.

And the numbers don't lie. Ben almost equals Ron in steals, but Ben also chimes in with 3 blocks per game. This knock on him that he isn't a good man to man defender is getting old too.


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## jvanbusk

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> heres part of his quote
> 
> 
> 
> so if he thinks this, should his 2 DPOY not have occured because Carlisle compaigned for him as well.
> 
> and how is this not whining. Hes basically saying he should of won, and artest shouldnt have, bringing in numbers even though defense isnt about numbers, and critisizng the same thing that Carlisle basically did for him (as i said before, not on the same level. I undertsand that).
> 
> 
> 
> i expect him not to whine, and take it out on artest and the pacers when they match up later on.


Each year his numbers have been the best, including this year. I don't know what you guys expected him to say, he spoke what was on his mind. He didn't take a shot at Artest, the defender, he simply stated that he thinks he should have won the award. After having the season he had, he has every reason to say what he said.

But, you're getting your shots in on the Pistons/Wallace, so I'm sure you are happy (along with Pacersguy).


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## jvanbusk

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly. Ron has been whining since this time last year. The only thing that shut him up about it was his winning it yesterday. Think about it, everytime Ron was on TV somebody was talking about how he deserves the DPOY award. Even though Ben was the reigning champ, it was Ron's award to lose from the beginning.
> 
> And the numbers don't lie. Ben almost equals Ron in steals, but Ben also chimes in with 3 blocks per game. This knock on him that he isn't a good man to man defender is getting old too.


Do you think Ben will ***** about it for the next year?

I doubt it.


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## DetBNyce

Every good defensive player thinks they should win the award. If you go across the league and ask Artest, Wallace, Bowen, etc. who is the best defensive player I'm pretty sure they will all say themselves. Saying he should've won instead of Artest (which he didn't say by the way) is not whining.


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## nmuman

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> what facts..i should of won and he shouldnt of. Thats opinion



You show me how this is "opinion"!

He is the first player since Hakeem to finish in the top 10 in blocks, steals, and rebounds. He became the 1st player in NBA history to record 4 1000 board, 100 block, and 100 steal seasons. He also anchored the most dominant defense in the 50 years since the shot clock was invented.


What do you have to say to that <del>chump</del>?

No need for namecalling or attacing other posters, no matter their opinion on the issue. - Det


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## hobojoe

What's up with Ben? Since when do the stats tell the whole story about players, especially on the defensive end of the court?


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## DetBNyce

Ben Wallace:



> The big surprise wasn’t so much that Indiana’s Ron Artest beat out Ben Wallace for the NBA’s Defensive Player of the Year award. It was that the vote wasn’t close.
> 
> Artest’s award had been rumored for days, but he won in a landslide, receiving 476 of a possible 605 points. He also got 80 of 121 first-place votes from a league-selected panel of basketball writers and broadcasters.
> 
> Wallace, who had won he award the past two seasons, had 325 votes and 26 first-place votes.
> 
> *“I thought that trophy had my name on it,” Wallace said after practice Monday. “I’ll just have to get mine (trophy) another way.”*


This ends all talks of him whining. He has moved on. Looks like his "whining" has stopped already.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> What's up with Ben? Since when do the stats tell the whole story about players, especially on the defensive end of the court?


How many of these panelists and experts do you think sit down and actually watch all or even most of the games these guys play?

It's not possible to sit down and watch these guys play. I great game here or a subpar game here and they could write off the guy for the whole year. They don't have a whole lot more to go on but stats and reputation.


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## froggyvk

Ben Wallace

2002-03: 15.4 rpg, 3.2 bpg, 1.4 spg
2003:04: 12.4 rpg, 3.0 bpg, 1.8 spg

Ron Artest
2002-03: 5.3 rpg, 0.7 bpg, 2.3 spg
2003-04: 5.3 rpg, 0.7 bpg, 2.1 spg

Looks to me like if you're giving it to Wallace in 02-03, you give it to him in 03-04 too.


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## reHEATed

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> But, you're getting your shots in on the Pistons/Wallace, so I'm sure you are happy (along with Pacersguy).


why should i be happy......uve guys been whining taking shots at artest since this was announced a couple days ago. And contrary to popular beleif i dont hate the pistons (i kno thats a shocker to some of you ). You guys are my favorites to win the east, and the only time I say things bad about the pistons is when they face the heat, and when fans whine about things like this. 



> You show me how this is "opinion"!


fact- something known to be true: something that can be shown to be true, to exist, or to have happened

opinion-personal view: the view somebody takes about a certain issue, especially when it is based solely on personal judgment

so saying who should win is a opinion. If I say Artests should of won, its opinion not fact. So be Wallace stating that he should win, its his personal opinion. Theres no fact in that.



> He became the 1st player in NBA history to record 4 1000 board, 100 block, and 100 steal seasons. He also anchored the most dominant defense in the 50 years since the shot clock was invented.


why what he does 3 years ago matter. Sheed also has helped a lot. Did u notice the streak of games under 70 points occured after wallace came.  . 



> What do you have to say to that chump?


why is this needed. Im stating my opinion, just like Wlaace and u guys are stating yours.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> So be Wallace stating that he should win, its his personal opinion. Theres no fact in that.


You're reaching for things that aren't there. Where did Ben say he should have won?

:wait:


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## MLKG

When I read that article yesterday I didn't get the impression he was whining at all.

Things he said:



> They put on a nice campaign. I probably would have voted for him if it was about campaigning.


This is true. The first time Ben won it, Rick called reporters and told them they should vote for him. For Artest, Rick put over 200 man hours of labor into breaking down film trying to find a stat to support Ron's case. That's pretty unprecendented for trying to win an individual award.



> They campaigned hard for him and I guess they got what they wanted. But I think everybody knows that ain’t what it’s about. It ain’t about going out and campaigning, it’s about going out and playing and letting the numbers speak for themselves.


This is his view on the matter. He's doesn't need to campaign for himself and he would rather let his play on the court speak for itself. He could have easily sent guys into a film room to find an overwhelming stat on how many shots he changes in a game, how many loose balls he runs down, how many charges he takes, or how many passes he deflects. But he would rather let his play speak for itself.

No whining there. I didn't interpret that as him saying "look at how good my numbers are". In fact I took it as the opposite. I think the "let the numbers speak for themselves" line is in reference to Artest and Carlisle 'speaking for the numbers' if you will. I took it has him saying he doesn't care about finding fancy stats because his numbers will take care of themself and he just has to worry about going out and playing hard.



> I thought that trophy had my name on it. I’ll just have to get mine another way.


Here he just says he thought he was going to win, but isn't too concerned because his focus is on a championshiop, not an individual award.

I don't see how he is whining. All he said was it isn't his style to go out and promote himself like that. He thought he was going to win, and probably thinks he should have won (although he never said that), but isn't dwelling on it because his concern is with winning games, not awards.


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## reHEATed

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> You're reaching for things that aren't there. Where did Ben say he should have won?
> 
> :wait:


sorry to keep u wiating to long:uhoh: 

u and I both kno he implied it throughout the entire article, and the article u just posted it said



> “I thought that trophy had my name on it,” Wallace said after practice Monday.


cmon...what did u think he meant...

and as a side note, it seems like most of the people voting agreed with Artest being deserving. The vote wasnt even close. What does that tell u? Mostly all the unbiaed ones who vote say Artest, and fans of Detriot are saying Wallace. hmm......


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## reHEATed

heres another question I have that hasnt been answered yet

didnt Carlisle campaign for Ben the 2 years he won it? What makes him campaigning then right, and now that he is campaingning for a non piston player its wrong? (again, I know he campaigned heavier with Artest)


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> sorry to keep u wiating to long:uhoh:
> 
> u and I both kno he implied it throughout the entire article, and the article u just posted it said
> 
> cmon...what did u think he meant...


The guy who just posted definitions on what an opinion is and what a fact is, should know better. That's an *opinion of yours* that Ben was implying that he should've won. In no way is that a fact.

Even worse you said that he said that he should've won which was a flat out lie and that's a fact.





> and as a side note, it seems like most of the people voting agreed with Artest being deserving. The vote wasnt even close. What does that tell u? Mostly all the unbiaed ones who vote say Artest, and fans of Detriot are saying Wallace. hmm......


It's not about Artest being deserving, it obviously is since he was given the award. Which by the way is another *fact*. Tell us something new.

This whole conversation came from some people calling Ben a whiner, which is an *opinion*. Noone is disputing that Ron won the award.


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## DetBNyce

Calling voters is a thing a lot players and front office men would do for "their guy". Breaking down film and looking up stats that make your case better (for 50 or 60 man hours) is something that probal hasn't been done before.


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## KokoTheMonkey

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> You're reaching for things that aren't there. Where did Ben say he should have won?
> 
> :wait:




Saying he thought his name was on the trophy isn't saying he should have won?


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> and as a side note, it seems like most of the people voting agreed with Artest being deserving. The vote wasnt even close. What does that tell u? Mostly all the unbiaed ones who vote say Artest, and fans of Detriot are saying Wallace. hmm......


That is why I find the situation strange.

Last year Ben beat Artest in a landslide. This year Ben had the best season of his career, and Artest is basically the exact same defender he was last year, but somehow Artest won in a landslide this year. He didn't add any new element to his game that has made him more deserving than he was last year, but for some reason the vote took a huge swing in his favor.

It really doesn't make a lot of sense.

I think a lot of the voters had pretty much made up their mind early in the season that they were going to pick a perimeter defender this year. And hey, this isn't the first time that's happened. Gary Payton won the award in '96 even though Dikembe was the current DPOY and had the best season of his career. The next two years were Deke's worst since his rookie year but somehow he won the award those years, but not in his best year.

Artest got a lot of make up votes this year for being snubbed for 1st team last year. Next year he will probably have just as good a year defensively as this year, but I bet the voters turn on him. No matter how good a season he has I doubt they give him an honest look. Just like they didn't give Ben an honest look this year. Same thing happened with MJ and Payton. They get DPOY once just to recognize them as the best perimeter in the game, then go back voting for the big guys until someone else steps up as the best perimiter defender.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!
> 
> Saying he thought his name was on the trophy isn't saying he should have won?


It's saying he thought he was GOING to win. Of course he thinks he should have won, how else is he going to think. But that's not really what he said.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saying he thought his name was on the trophy isn't saying he should have won?


No. He could think it's his award to lose. Nowhere will you find him saying he should've won and Ron shouldn't have won. Like I said earlier ask Artest, Wallace, Bowen, etc. who they think is the best defender and they will all say themselves. Until Ben Wallace says those words it's a matter of opinion on whether or not he thinks he should've won and Ron should've lost.



> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> It's saying he thought he was GOING to win. Of course he thinks he should have won, how else is he going to think. But that's not really what he said.


And as Mike's post shows, it's all a matter of opinion in determining what Ben is thinking by making these comments, but stating that he said he should've won is not true.


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## KokoTheMonkey

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> That is why I find the situation strange.
> 
> Last year Ben beat Artest in a landslide. This year Ben had the best season of his career, and Artest is basically the exact same defender he was last year, but somehow Artest won in a landslide this year. He didn't add any new element to his game that has made him more deserving than he was last year, but for some reason the vote took a huge swing in his favor.
> 
> It really doesn't make a lot of sense.
> 
> I think a lot of the voters had pretty much made up their mind early in the season that they were going to pick a perimeter defender this year. And hey, this isn't the first time that's happened. Gary Payton won the award in '96 even though Dikembe was the current DPOY and had the best season of his career. The next two years were Deke's worst since his rookie year but somehow he won the award those years, but not in his best year.
> 
> Artest got a lot of make up votes this year for being snubbed for 1st team last year. Next year he will probably have just as good a year defensively as this year, but I bet the voters turn on him. No matter how good a season he has I doubt they give him an honest look. Just like they didn't give Ben an honest look this year. Same thing happened with MJ and Payton. They get DPOY once just to recognize them as the best perimeter in the game, then go back voting for the big guys until someone else steps up as the best perimiter defender.




The main reason why Artest was thrusted into the DPOY was the combined sucess of the Pacers, and his better management of his attitude (I guess). The main reason is the former. 


The Pacers had one of the best records in the league all year long, and Artest's defense was part of that, just as Wallace was a big part of his team's sucess. 


I personally think it could have gone either way, but I'm satisfied with Artest winning it. Of course you guys aren't (Pistons fans), but that's how it goes sometimes. 


The bottom line is that Wallace should be making statements about winning the championship, not the DPOY situation.


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## reHEATed

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> The guy who just posted definitions on what an opinion is and what a fact is, should know better. That's an *opinion of yours* that Ben was implying that he should've won. In no way is that a fact.
> 
> Even worse you said that he said that he should've won which was a flat out lie and that's a fact.


what else could what he said means. He obviously implied that he should of won. It isnt a fact because it cant be proven, but its obvious. 



> It's not about Artest being deserving, it obviously is since he was given the award. Which by the way is another *fact*. Tell us something new.
> 
> This whole conversation came from some people calling Ben a whiner, which is an *opinion*. Noone is disputing that Ron won the award.


What Ben said in his second quote is what he should've been saying all along

"I’ll just have to get mine (trophy) another way.” 

The first one with the campaigning and talking about that imo(yes opinion) is whining. Something i said i wouldnt expect from him because i always considered him to be better than imo (yes opinion) whining about awards


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## froggyvk

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> Calling voters is a thing a lot players and front office men would do for "their guy". Breaking down film and looking up stats that make your case better (for 50 or 60 man hours) is something that probal hasn't been done before.


And I don't even know if I believe those stats. I mean, what'd they say, he's holding them to what, 12 ppg? In the East you're guarding some pretty good scorers.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> I personally think it could have gone either way, but I'm satisfied with Artest winning it. Of course you guys aren't (Pistons fans), but that's how it goes sometimes.


I think most Pistons fans did move on, but the majority of this conversation came from Ben being called a whiner. Without looking back over the posts in this thread I would venture to say that a very small percentage of them actually disputed whether or not Ben should've won.


The bottom line is that Wallace should be making statements about winning the championship, not the DPOY situation. [/QUOTE]



> “I’ll just have to get mine (trophy) another way.”
> 
> Such as winning the Eastern Conference championship, perhaps?


Already done...


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## KokoTheMonkey

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> It's saying he thought he was GOING to win. Of course he thinks he should have won, how else is he going to think. But that's not really what he said.







> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> No. He could think it's his award to lose. Nowhere will you find him saying he should've won and Ron shouldn't have won. Like I said earlier ask Artest, Wallace, Bowen, etc. who they think is the best defender and they will all say themselves. Until Ben Wallace says those words it's a matter of opinion on whether or not he thinks he should've won and Ron should've lost.





IMO, saying your name is on the trophy is pretty much saying you deserve to win. Why go out of your way to say that? My interpretation of that statement is that he is indirectly saying he should have won the DPOY. Wallace had to believe he was deserving the DPOY, or he wouldn't have made a deal about this at all. He didn't directly say "I should have won the Defensive Player of the Year", but he did indirectly say that by saying he thought his name was on the trophy. That's my opinion, and I'm not trying to cause more bickering. I respect both of your opinions, so just because I disagree doesn't mean I don't respect it. (I wanted to clearify that, because opinions tend to get insulted when talking about something highly debateable, like this situation is)


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>froggyvk</b>!
> 
> 
> Dude, why do you even post in the Pistons forum? Your posts brings nothing to the discussion, and every one has to do with bashing of the Pistons in some way.


See you don't like it either. That's I feel when the Piston fans do that in the Pacers forum. My work here is done.

If you feel others are baiting you on the Pacers board, take it up with a mod via PM. Don't do it in other boards.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly. Ron has been whining since this time last year. The only thing that shut him up about it was his winning it yesterday. Think about it, everytime Ron was on TV somebody was talking about how he deserves the DPOY award. Even though Ben was the reigning champ, it was Ron's award to lose from the beginning.
> 
> And the numbers don't lie. Ben almost equals Ron in steals, but Ben also chimes in with 3 blocks per game. This knock on him that he isn't a good man to man defender is getting old too.


Nobody said Ron Artest didn't whine, <del>but Ben seemed like a classy guy, so I'm suprised.<del>


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!
> IMO, saying your name is on the trophy is pretty much saying you deserve to win. Why go out of your way to say that? My interpretation of that statement is that he is indirectly saying he should have won the DPOY. Wallace had to believe he was deserving the DPOY, or he wouldn't have made a deal about this at all. He didn't directly say "I should have won the Defensive Player of the Year", but he did indirectly say that by saying he thought his name was on the trophy. That's my opinion, and I'm not trying to cause more bickering. I respect both of your opinions, so just because I disagree doesn't mean I don't respect it. (I wanted to clearify that, because opinions tend to get insulted when talking about something highly debateable, like this situation is)


That's fine. I respect others' opinions too. It can just as easily mean that he thought he was going to win the award and had nothing to do with him implying that he should've won. It's all a matter of opinion. If you feel otherwise, I disagree, but that doesn't mean I don't respect where you're coming from.


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## KokoTheMonkey

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> That's fine. I respect others' opinions too. It can just as easily mean that he thought he was going to win the award and had nothing to do with him implying that he should've won. It's all a matter of opinion. If you feel otherwise, I disagree, but that doesn't mean I don't respect where you're coming from.




Wow, a disagreement without insults, it must be a first.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Last year Ben beat Artest in a landslide. This year Ben had the best season of his career, and Artest is basically the exact same defender he was last year, but somehow Artest won in a landslide this year. He didn't add any new element to his game that has made him more deserving than he was last year, but for some reason the vote took a huge swing in his favor.


If Artest wasn't a "**** head" last year to put it crudely, he probably would have won to. Thus, since he elminated this problem this year, he won.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Nobody said Ron Artest didn't whine, <del>but Ben seemed like a classy guy, so I'm suprised.<del>


Please, explain that edit. It really is unwarrented. PM or something.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, a disagreement without insults, it must be a first.


 good job guys, keep it up.:yes:


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## jvanbusk

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Please, explain that edit. It really is unwarrented. PM or something.


Because it is baiting, which for some reason you've already admitted you've been doing in this thread.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Please, explain that edit. It really is unwarrented. PM or something.


Like Jvanbusk said you've already admitted to baiting. Therefore that posts could be considered baiting. Since you bait so much on the Pistons board I have no idea whether or not you are serious with this claim or if you are baiting. As you can see I took the safe rout.


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## PacersguyUSA

I didn't say anyone else should feel the same way as me regarding Ben Wallace's classiness, but I'm honored that my opinion matters that much to you and makes that big of an impression on you.


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## jvanbusk

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> I didn't say anyone else should feel the same way as me regarding Ben Wallace's classiness, but I'm honored that my opinion matters that much to you and makes that big of an impression on you.


What?

No offense but your opinion means about zero, zip, zilch to me.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> See you don't like it either. That's I feel when the Piston fans do that in the Pacers forum. My work here is done.
> 
> If you feel others are baiting you on the Pacers board, take it up with a mod via PM. Don't do it in other boards.


It's not considered baiting when I supply evidence to back my claims. It's not just comming in and bad mouthing the Pistons. I make legitiment cases. 

I have PMed TomBoerwinkle#1, should I expect a response?


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> I didn't say anyone else should feel the same way as me regarding Ben Wallace's classiness, but I'm honored that my opinion matters that much to you and makes that big of an impression on you.


Believe me, it doesn't. I only responded because you asked for one.


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## jvanbusk

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> Like Jvanbusk said you've already admitted to baiting. Therefore that posts could be considered baiting. Since you bait so much on the Pistons board I have no idea whether or not you are serious with this claim or if you are baiting. As you can see I took the safe rout.


I would say that since he said pretty much the exact same thing on page 1, that the second time would be considered baiting regardless.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> What?
> 
> No offense but your opinion means about zero, zip, zilch to me.


Well, all I said was that I'm suprised Ben Wallace wined because I thought he was a classy guy. This is my personal belief, and thus if it offensive to you, which it must have been, it therefor must mean something greater than zero, zip, zilch to you.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> It's not considered baiting when I supply evidence to back my claims. It's not just comming in and bad mouthing the Pistons. I make legitiment cases.
> 
> I have PMed TomBoerwinkle#1, should I expect a response?


I already know you PMed TB#1 and the proper actions have taking place. Whether or not he responds to you directly is his discretion. But, the issue has been taken care of.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> I already know you PMed TB#1 and the proper actions have taking place. Whether or not he responds to you directly is his discretion. But, the issue has been taken care of.


Ok, thanks. Good luck against the Bucks, I'm officially out the Pistons board.


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## Jwick

One thing that really makes me really mad about Ront Artest is how he thinks he should also be a MVP Canidate. It was on PTI I think and they were talking to him and they asked him about O'Neal being a MVP Canidate and wether he should win it. Well Artest's response was...."Why can't I be a MVP Canidate, I did the same thing as Jermaine". Wow the guy also thinks that he was the best player in the league too. Artest is nothing more than a hot tempered, conceited punk. Don't get me he's a good player...but I think he's to full of himself. Also glad he got suspended!


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>Jwick</b>!
> One thing that really makes me really mad about Ront Artest is how he thinks he should also be a MVP Canidate. It was on PTI I think and they were talking to him and they asked him about O'Neal being a MVP Canidate and wether he should win it. Well Artest's response was...."Why can't I be a MVP Canidate, I did the same thing as Jermaine". Wow the guy also thinks that he was the best player in the league too. Artest is nothing more than a hot tempered, conceited punk. Don't get me he's a good player...but I think he's to full of himself. Also glad he got suspended!


Most people say that Artest is as valuable as Jermaine.


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## Jwick

I disagree with that one pretty big. Is Ron Artest the player that leads a team like Jermaine O'Neal? I don't think so. He gets suspsended, Whines about not getting awards that he feels he should get (Last yr) and seems to always have a bad attitude. I dont think Ron Artest could do the same as Jermaine O'Neal...Anyone else?


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>Jwick</b>!
> I disagree with that one pretty big. Is Ron Artest the player that leads a team like Jermaine O'Neal? I don't think so. He gets suspsended, Whines about not getting awards that he feels he should get (Last yr) and seems to always have a bad attitude. I dont think Ron Artest could do the same as Jermaine O'Neal...Anyone else?


They both add about the same amount although in different areas to the Pacers, the team with the best record and the best team sans the Lakers in my opinion. Pacers never lost with Jermaine out of the lineup. They lost twice without Artest. 
Artest is generally more consistent as well. If AK47 can be considered as MVP, surely Artest can.

By the way, can I have a link to where Artest complained about the award last year. I just never or don't remember hearing that.


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## nmuman

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Ok, thanks. Good luck against the Bucks, I'm officially out the Pistons board.



Well that didn't last long


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## Lope31

Okay, okay, okay, I'm here! :grinning: J/K!

I think that Ben Wallace should have won. I think Ben Wallace thinks Ben Wallace should have won. And I think Ben Wallace is aloud to think that way.

Take ALL of Ron Artests controversial actions away and Ron Artest is just an average defender. The link on NBA.com says he held 'some of the best NBA players to 8 ppg (not exact quote)'. Mmmm vagueness :drool: 

People that say Ben Wallace guards PF's and C's *do not watch games!* It is as simple as that. *cough* #1Stunna *cough*. 

Sure Ben Wallace could have said congratulations and left it at that, even if he didn't agree. I think that would have been a good thing to do. Proove it on the court, but Wallace retaliated, probably out of frustration and that is fine to. I am going to defend him. He didn't say anything negative about Artests game. He didn't make anything up. He just pointed out the obvious campaiging that was done to get Artest the award. Not only by Carlisle but Artest himself. *Artest is a hype machine* looking out for himself. Remember the All-Star game shoe incident? He is not of 'normal people' material.

So what can be taken of this? Artest is the Defensive Player of the Year. Nothing can change that. Ben Wallace probably should have just backed off but he didn't. He reacted, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Like I said before Ben didn't say anything to put down Artest game. I think the league wanted to reward Artest for his 'out there' attitude but didn't dare think about giving it to somebody who got flagrant fouls as frequently as Jenna Jameson gets tested for STD's. Now that Artest calmed down his 'violence problems' the league has the green light. BAsically they got bored of Big Ben. Oh well. CRUSH EM IN THE PLAYOFFS!


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>nmuman</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Well that didn't last long


Who said it would? I was out. Then I came back.


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## Jwick

> I think the league wanted to reward Artest for his 'out there' attitude but didn't dare think about giving it to somebody who got flagrant fouls as frequently as Jenna Jameson gets tested for STD's.




HAAAAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## PacersguyUSA

On a side note, I'd like to see an Artest-Wallace fight. Wallace has the brawn on his side, but Artest could fight dirty. They should have this on pay per view or during the ECF.


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## Yyzlin

It's odd that Ben Wallace defenders simply toss away the man-to-man argument like it is nothing. Man-to-man composes the majority of defense is and ignoring it is a huge mistake. Wallace is a fantastic help defender, there is no question. But, on individual matchups, Wallace is not a top-tier defender. 

http://82games.com/03DET14C.HTM


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## the wall

> On a side note, I'd like to see an Artest-Wallace fight. Wallace has the brawn on his side, but Artest could fight dirty. They should have this on pay per view or during the ECF.


I wouldn't mind seeing that...anyone can fight dirty if they want, only a limited number can bench press in excess of 450 pounds. I can't see Artest coming out of that one at full strength...


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## jvanbusk

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> It's odd that Ben Wallace defenders simply toss away the man-to-man argument like it is nothing. Man-to-man composes the majority of defense is and ignoring it is a huge mistake. Wallace is a fantastic help defender, there is no question. But, on individual matchups, Wallace is not a top-tier defender.
> 
> http://82games.com/03DET14C.HTM


Wallace is one of the best man-to-man defenders in the NBA, and his help side defense puts him over the top. What's funny is people actually throwing out arguments of the people that actually <b>watch</b> the games.


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## froggyvk

Ask Kevin Garnett if Ben Wallace is a good man-to-man defender. And look up "Clutch defender" in the dictionary and there's a picture of Ben Wallace. How many games did he win us with a clutch block at the end?


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## DetBNyce

I've see at least 90% of the Pistons games this year and I'll believe my eyes over stats any day. Computers *can't* interpret common sense and what actually goes on on the court.

EDIT: can't instead of can.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>froggyvk</b>!
> Ask Kevin Garnett if Ben Wallace is a good man-to-man defender.


Ask Tim Duncan if Jeff Foster is a good man to man defender. Do you think Foster deserves an award?



> I've see at least 90% of the Pistons games this year and I'll believe my eyes over stats any day. Computers can interpret common sense and what actually goes on on the court.


That's what a lot of us are saying about Artest.


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## froggyvk

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> Ask Tim Duncan if Jeff Foster is a good man to man defender. Do you think Foster deserves an award?


Good one!


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> It's odd that Ben Wallace defenders simply toss away the man-to-man argument like it is nothing. Man-to-man composes the majority of defense is and ignoring it is a huge mistake. Wallace is a fantastic help defender, there is no question. But, on individual matchups, Wallace is not a top-tier defender.
> 
> http://82games.com/03DET14C.HTM


Seriously. Layoff of 82games.com. Every post I'ver ever seen you make on these boards you reference that site.

There is some interesting stuff on there, but a lot of their stats don't really mean anything.

I'll take watching Ben Wallace give guys trouble every night man to man over some bizarre statistical analysis. He's not an elite man to man defender in the post because of his major height disadvantage, but he still does a better than good job.


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## Petey

I don't think Wallace airing his comments will help him next year. By saying the voters were influenced by these things and voted incorrectly, well they could hold it against him.

-Petey


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> That's what a lot of us are saying about Artest.


Like I said, I'm not disputing whether or not Artest should've won. I was "arguing" against those calling Ben a whiner.


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## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>froggyvk</b>!
> 
> 
> Good one!


How insightful  

Care to elaborate?

Foster played Duncan superbly. Therefore, Duncan would say Foster is a good defender. Duncan is equal, if not greater a player than Garnett. Because the purpose of your post was to prove that Ben Wallace deserves the award, you are, by the same logic and the substitution property, saying that Foster deserves the award.

Since it is obvious that Foster does not deserve the award, I was showing the flaw in your logic.

Your turn, but I'm out for the night, Pacers won.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> I don't think Wallace airing his comments will help him next year. By saying the voters were influenced by these things and voted incorrectly, well they could hold it against him.
> 
> -Petey


Artest whined like crazy last year and it certainly didn't hurt his case.


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Artest whined like crazy last year and it certainly didn't hurt his case.


It could also be argued that it helped his cause since he made such a big deal out of it.


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## Auggie

> Originally posted by <b>froggyvk</b>!
> Ben Wallace
> 
> 2002-03: 15.4 rpg, 3.2 bpg, 1.4 spg
> 2003:04: 12.4 rpg, 3.0 bpg, 1.8 spg
> 
> Ron Artest
> 2002-03: 5.3 rpg, 0.7 bpg, 2.3 spg
> 2003-04: 5.3 rpg, 0.7 bpg, 2.1 spg
> 
> Looks to me like if you're giving it to Wallace in 02-03, you give it to him in 03-04 too.


stats arent everything.. ben wallace should know that too..


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## Yyzlin

I simply quote 82games.com frequently in defensive arguments because it is the only site that actually provides any measure of defensive stats. No, they are not "bizarre", or biased, so I don't know why people would simply ignore them. The site records statistics for your oppositions offensive performance and allows a basis for comparison. Subjective observation does not. Claiming I simply don't watch games is silly. I do watch games, and Wallace has had trouble defending larger and more athletic opponents on an individual basis. I don't know how you can continue to deny this.


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## Midnight_Marauder

Who really cares? It is only the DPOY.....not the NBA Championship.......


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>reisedogg</b>!
> Who really cares? It is only the DPOY.....not the NBA Championship.......


Obviously everyone one that posted.


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## Midnight_Marauder

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> Obviously everyone one that posted.


I know.........I just havent been big on awards......


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## jvanbusk

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> I simply quote 82games.com frequently in defensive arguments because it is the only site that actually provides any measure of defensive stats. No, they are not "bizarre", or biased, so I don't know why people would simply ignore them. The site records statistics for your oppositions offensive performance and allows a basis for comparison. Subjective observation does not. Claiming I simply don't watch games is silly. <b>I do watch games, and Wallace has had trouble defending larger and more athletic opponents on an individual basis.</b> I don't know how you can continue to deny this.


More athletic opponents? They must be pretty damn athletic, to be <b>more</b> athletic than Ben Wallace.

I agree that bigger opponents cause some problems, but come on: athleticism? That's Ben's forte. That's how he is able to be the defender he is.

And this with the claim that you watch games. Seems to me if you watched games, you would have a drastically different opinion.


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## Yyzlin

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> More athletic opponents? They must be pretty damn athletic, to be <b>more</b> athletic than Ben Wallace.
> 
> I agree that bigger opponents cause some problems, but come on: athleticism? That's Ben's forte. That's how he is able to be the defender he is.
> 
> And this with the claim that you watch games. Seems to me if you watched games, you would have a drastically different opinion.


Perhaps I mistated in saying "more" athletic opponents. Although they are more athletic players than Wallace, it is rare. Similarly athletic players would be a more correct assessment, so sorry. Here's my correct statement. Larger and similarly athletic opponents give Wallace trouble. 

OK, see admission is step one. Wallace has trouble playing against bigger opponents. Bingo. As great as Wallace is inch for inch, pound for pound, a large proportion of Wallace's opponents are larger than he is. His athleticism is his forte and it shows tremendously in press and help defense situations, but it isn't as useful in post defense, and that is Wallace's weakness. Face it, to be a top tier defensive C or PF, you need a top tier post defense. Wallace lacks that. 

Why would I have a drastically different opinion? I see the games and I see Wallace having trouble with larger opponents. It seems very black and white to me.


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## PistonFAN81

its funny when i looked at this post at first I was like wow, there were so many things that ben could have said to be a real ***, but he didn't. then I read something about ben whining? WHINING??? yeah thats funny the only people that say that are all the haters out there! I mean ben is the most feared competitor that I have seen in a long time, im sure that when people play artest they are thinking oh man where is artest at on the floor? NOPE, they are actually thinking where is ben at? or maybe I should shoot from the outside so I don;t come near him. I think that all this talk will be decided where it should be...on the court


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## Petey

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Artest whined like crazy last year and it certainly didn't hurt his case.


Artest did whine, but did he whine to the point where he said that voters were influenced / fooled by irrelvant stats, and made a mistake?

-Petey


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## froggyvk

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> How insightful
> 
> Care to elaborate?
> 
> Foster played Duncan superbly. Therefore, Duncan would say Foster is a good defender. Duncan is equal, if not greater a player than Garnett. Because the purpose of your post was to prove that Ben Wallace deserves the award, you are, by the same logic and the substitution property, saying that Foster deserves the award.
> 
> Since it is obvious that Foster does not deserve the award, I was showing the flaw in your logic.
> 
> Your turn, but I'm out for the night, Pacers won.


Your "Ask Tim Duncan if Jeff Foster is a good defender" is like me saying "Ask Tracy McGrady if Darvin Ham is a good defender." It's not on topic, and it's stupid.


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## el_Diablo

> Originally posted by <b>froggyvk</b>!
> “Congratulations to those guys,” Wallace said, *“they put on a hell of a campaign.” *
> 
> *“I probably would have voted for him if it was about campaigning. If it’s about the numbers, the numbers don’t lie." *
> 
> *“They campaigned hard for him and I guess they got what they wanted.* But I think everybody knows that ain’t what it’s about. It ain’t about going out and campaigning, it’s about going out and playing and letting the numbers speak for themselves.”


if that's not whining, I don't know what is. he is essentially saying that artest won, not because he was the best defender, but because carlisle influenced the voters.


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## PacersguyUSA

> im sure that when people play artest they are thinking oh man where is artest at on the floor? NOPE,


That's cause Artest is right in their face!



> Your "Ask Tim Duncan if Jeff Foster is a good defender" is like me saying "Ask Tracy McGrady if Darvin Ham is a good defender." It's not on topic, and it's stupid.


Go take a class on analogy.


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