# OT: Pistons/Pacers Suspensions (Merged)



## Chicago N VA (Oct 31, 2003)

*Suspensions for Wallace, Artest, Oneal & Jackson*

Suspensions handed down  

Wow


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## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Detroit's Rasheed Wallace was also in or near the stands trying to break up the fights.


Wow. Thats impressive. Who would have thunk the "Bad" Wallace would be breaking up the "Good" Wallace's fight?

Anyways, this is just the way it should be. I can't forsee Artest playing again this season. And Jackson and O'Neal shouldn't get less then 20 games. Wallace, about 5-8.

This is indeed a sad day for the NBA. Hopefully other teams beef up security in the wake of this unfortunate incident....


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Wow is all I have to say


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

I have been and still am a HUGE artest fan and am still bitter we traded him. But that in mind he is looking at at least a 20 game suspension, period. He attacked a poor fan who was doing nothing but drinking a beer and started punching him.

O'Neal did a running punch and hit some poor fan who was in the process of standing up and hit him in the face. He could have killed him. O'Neal gets 15 games and likely arrest for assult. Not to mention that both O'Neal and Arest are looking at big time law suites in the range of several million.

Jackson runs into the stands and starts hitting some guy. Jackson gets a 10 games suspension but i think no law suite.

Ben wallance gets one game.

david


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## TheWindyCityBallers (May 19, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>giusd</b>!
> I have been and still am a HUGE artest fan and am still bitter we traded him. But that in mind he is looking at at least a 20 game suspension, period. He attacked a poor fan who was doing nothing but drinking a beer and started punching him.
> 
> O'Neal did a running punch and hit some poor fan who was in the process of standing up and hit him in the face. He could have killed him. O'Neal gets 15 games and likely arrest for assult. Not to mention that both O'Neal and Arest are looking at big time law suites in the range of several million.
> ...


Oh please. Poor fan? I am ashamed to say that I live in Detroit (I'm a Bulls fan originally from Chicago) and am very embarassed by this display by my fellow Michiganians. Beer is mainly to blame for this entire mess, and had those idiots never gotten drunk, we wouldn't have seen crazy ron wailing on people in the stands. THe fans provoked and the ones that got hit got exactly what they deserved. Take away the beer at games, and maybe take away a few of their season tickets and I guarantee something like this never happens again.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

I totally agree the fans were awful. But the fan that artest punched did not throw any beer at anyone, he was just standing there. Is this some kind of collective punishment. 

Mark my words artest at least 20 games and since my last post i am thing stern is really going to stick it to him. Out for the rest of the year. O'neal is going to be charged with assult. Not to mention the guy he hit went to the hospital.

Now i can stand the piston fans, along with the pacer fans they are the worst. I remember the (pacers) cheering when jordan hurt himself one game. But the players are professionals and there is no, and i mean no excuse for running into the seats and start punching fans, period.

david


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>giusd</b>!
> .... Now i can stand the piston fans, along with the pacer fans they are the worst. I remember the (pacers) cheering when jordan hurt himself one game. But the players are professionals and there is no, and i mean no excuse for running into the seats and start punching fans, period.
> 
> david



Absolutely agree, plus they are on the Bulls most wanted list :yes:


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## Ice Nine (Apr 3, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>giusd</b>!
> Mark my words artest at least 20 games and since my last post i am thing stern is really going to stick it to him. Out for the rest of the year. O'neal is going to be charged with assult. Not to mention the guy he hit went to the hospital.


What's your source on the hospital story? And what's the type & severity of the injury?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>giusd</b>!
> O'Neal did a running punch and hit some poor fan who was in the process of standing up and hit him in the face. He could have killed him. O'Neal gets 15 games and likely arrest for assult. Not to mention that both O'Neal and Arest are looking at big time law suites in the range of several million.
> 
> Jackson runs into the stands and starts hitting some guy. Jackson gets a 10 games suspension but i think no law suite.





> <I>Oakland County prosecutor David Gorcycka told ESPN Radio on Saturday that charges could be slow in coming.
> 
> "*You can literally count everytime a punch is thrown and that would constitute an assualt and battery*," he told ESPN Radio. "Now, whether or not some of them are justifiable under law remains to be seen. Some players could state they were coming to the defense of, say, Artest when he entered the stands area, but this is all going to have to be straightened out and there are going to be voluminous reports from people on press row, who were there just rows in front it, player personnel, the players themselves, coaches, referees, fans, literally hundreds of reports to review."</i>


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1927380


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ice Nine</b>!
> 
> What's your source on the hospital story? And what's the type & severity of the injury?





> David C. Gorcyca, the Oakland County prosecutor, said in a telephone interview that *the players and fans involved* in the melee could be charged with a number of crimes, ranging from misdemeanor assault and battery to felonious assault, which carries a *maximum four-year prison term*.
> 
> He added that he does not expect the players to help with the investigation. "I'd be very surprised if they cooperate with us," he said. "I suspect that they will take the Fifth Amendment, and on the advice of counsel, not make any statements."
> 
> Wilson said *nine fans were treated for injuries at the arena on Friday night* and, according to Chris Allman, a spokesman for *Pontiac Osteopathic Hospital, four men and one woman were treated for minor injuries* and released. Wilson added that at least *one member of the Palace security staff broke fingers trying to break up the fight*.


http://nytimes.com/2004/11/21/sport...&en=94b5657d47c5c943&ei=5094&partner=homepage


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> "You can literally count everytime a punch is thrown and that would constitute an assualt and battery


That's all fine and good. I just hope they extend the same thoroughness and interpretation of the law to the chair-throwers, the bottle-throwers, and the fans who threw punches as well.

(Anyone here been to a game at the Palace lately, and if so do you know if plastic-bottled water, soda, beer etc. is sold with the cap on? A full bottle of water thrown from the upper deck warrants attempted murder charges if so, imo)


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

(second forum post since suspensions are being discussed here)


However, Ben Maller and Chris Landry of Fox Sports Radio have learned from Pistons play-by-play man Fred McLeod that the NBA plans to suspend Ron Artest for 30 games.

Additionally, Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson will both get 20-game suspensions. Ben Wallace, on the other hand, will miss just five games.

Artest, O'Neal and Jackson - who all threw punches at spectators in the stands or on the court at the end of the nationally televised Pacers-Pistons game - were to begin serving their suspensions Saturday night, when Indiana hosted Orlando.

Wallace's suspension will start at home Sunday night against Charlotte, the next game for the reigning NBA champion Pistons

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3179442


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

And I'll repost my hope that some sort of fine or punishment is forthcoming for the Detroit front office/ownership. A sizable cash fine, or maybe even giving up a few home games to a neutral venue.

They failed to provide appropriate security for an NBA game while at the same time overserving alcohol to a large number of fans. I'm guessing both of these could be construed as criminal offenses as well.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> And I'll repost my hope that some sort of fine or punishment is forthcoming for the Detroit front office/ownership. A sizable cash fine, or maybe even giving up a few home games to a neutral venue.


It would have to be the owner, similer to the way Cuban gets fined.


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## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

Am i the only person here whos going to defend the pacers? Yes its inexcusable for charging into the stands and punching fans, but what example will this set if they severly punish the players.

So fans can pretty much do whatever they want and provoke players into losing their tempers. We might see more of this type of behaviour from fans to eject opposing stars. 

This has got nothing to do with being suspended from NBA games in my oppinon. Let the law deal with it. Sure hand out some suspensions for the wallace and artest scuffle, but riot should be delt with the law, full stop.

All this talk about 20-30 game suspensions is ridiculous. Yes i saw it live on tv and it was shocking, but whats done is done, they will probably have assult charges against them. Their names are tarnished. They will probably have civil law suits against them. 

Why make it worse and suspend them for lengths that long. I dont get it. Its not good for the NBA and for all the pacers fans. Man if i were trying to calm myself down and walk away from a fight, laying there calming myself down. While doing that if some punk thew a bottle at me, i know i'd snap as well. 

I dont blame artest for losing his cool. I cant speak for Jax or O'neil, I guess they were just backing up their team mate, but still. Let the law deal with it. Thats my oppinion.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> 
> All this talk about 20-30 game suspensions is ridiculous. Yes i saw it live on tv and it was shocking, but whats done is done, they will probably have assult charges against them. Their names are tarnished. They will probably have civil law suits against them.
> 
> Why make it worse and suspend them for lengths that long.


Because some things are more important than basketball.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

dont give any big money to the fans who were punched. they deserved them. also, if they start giving up easy money, it will make more fans want to get involved in a fight with NBA players. its the fastest way to become a millionaire.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Because some things are more important than basketball.


I'm disappointed in you. I'm sure if a fan stabbed a player like Monica Seles got stabbed, you would say we should wait and see what happened. 

I'm not condoning Artest's actions, but you seem to be absolving the fans of any responsibility. You seem to be like those who hold these players to unrealistic expectations. If I threw a drink in your face, I'm sure you would just walk away and go cool off, rather than try to take my head off. 

I'm not so forgiving.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

It's a bit sketchy, but this link suggests:

Artest: 30 games
Jackson and O'Neal: 20 games
Wallace: 5 games

*Not an official announcement. Read a little farther down in the article.

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3179442


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm disappointed in you. I'm sure if a fan stabbed a player like Monica Seles got stabbed, you would say we should wait and see what happened.
> ...


Artest started it when he pursued a banned activity: going into the stands 

Yes...the fans have responsabiliy. I hope they are arrested and fined, much like Artest will be fined.

But it started with Artest.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> It's a bit sketchy, but this link suggests:
> 
> Artest: 30 games
> ...


Come to think of it, I'd be shocked if the suspensions are this long. 

It would effectively gut the Pacers and probably ruin their season. The Simons are among Stern's favorite owners and no one in the game is more liked and respected than Donnie Walsh. 

I know O'Neal, Artest, and Jackson deserve punishment, but the Simons and Walsh might be a big mitigating factor.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

You know what this all means? 
The Bulls could be looking at their first win on Dec 18th  or not.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

*Fox Sports speculates on suspensions for Pacer/Pistons players*

The exact length of the suspensions could be announced by the league as early as Sunday night, but Maller and Landry have learned from Pistons play-by-play man Fred McLeod that the NBA plans to suspend Ron Artest for 30 games. Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson are both expected to receive 20 game suspensions, while Pistons forward Ben Wallace will only miss five.

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3179442



:jawdrop:


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Wow those 20 games are gonna be tough for the Pacers. But wow I think we got a brand new rivalry in the NBA, cause you know Pistons vs Pacers is gonna be a blood-feud from now on like Lakers-Kings for those three years.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> Come to think of it, I'd be shocked if the suspensions are this long.


Shocked?


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

espn news reporting that *ron artest has been suspended FOR THE SEASON - 72 games! *

stephen jackson for 30 games

jermaine o'neal for 25 games

ben wallace for 6 games

anthony johnson for 5 games

...


david stern news conference at 6:30pm eastern

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1928540


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)




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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> espn news reporting that *ron artest has been suspended FOR THE SEASON - 72 games! *
> 
> stephen jackson for 30 games
> ...


Huh?

No announcement yet?


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

tune in...right now...

they are reading stern's statement. 

artest suspended for the rest of the season.

wow.


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## remlover (Jan 22, 2004)

Well Fox's sources were wrong.

Artest gone for the year.


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

Ya, holy ****!!! http://espn.go.com/


The year!!!


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Just the season...not playoffs?


All-star game for O'Neal?


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

no mention of the all-star game.

suspension of artest is presumed (by espn anchor) to include the playoffs.

david stern coming on espn news in two minutes.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Det/Ind Suspensions Handed Down*

Artest - season
Jackson - 30 games
O'Neal - 25 games
B Wallace - 6 games
A Johnson - 5 games
Campbell - 1 game
Billups - 1 game
Miller - 1 game
Coleman - 1 game

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1928540


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Artest should and will sue and appeal. If the courts get involved, which I suspect, Artest will be back before you know it.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

I see most of this info is in another thread. Feel free to ignore what you are reading here and forget you ever saw this.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Pistons and Heat *BOTH* raising a banner to the guy who thre the first cup!


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

"the decision to suspend artest was unanimous - one nothing - the decision was mine."

david stern

"we have to make the point there are boundaries in the game...players cannot lose control and go into the stands"

EDIT: the "history" of ron factored into his decision.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> "The message the league sent was so powerful to players that they'll never do that again," Pistons CEO Tom Wilson said.
> --
> "I'm sick about that for Indiana. I'm devastated for them," Pistons coach Larry Brown said. "And we lost our heart and soul."


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...41121/ap_on_sp_bk_ne/bkn_pacers_pistons_brawl


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

<b>Professionalism and self-control</b>. These players got what they deserved and hopefully criminal assault charges will follow for both the fans involved and the players.



> "The actions of the players involved wildly exceeded the professionalism and self-control that should fairly be expected from NBA players," NBA commissioner David Stern said in a statement, adding that the league must not "allow our sport to be debased by what seem to be declining expectations."
> 
> The NBA also has to "redefine the bounds of acceptable conduct for fans attending our games and resolve to permanently exclude those who overstep those bounds," Stern said.
> 
> He added that security procedures in all NBA arenas will be reviewed and rules need to be added to prevent a repeat of what happened at Auburn Hills, Mich., on Friday.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Eddy Curry only got a 2 game suspension for something much worse then Artest did.


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## LuolDeng (Feb 22, 2004)

VOTE RON ARTEST FOR THE 2005 NBA ALL STAR GAME!


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KHinrich12</b>!
> VOTE RON ARTEST FOR THE 2005 NBA ALL STAR GAME!


Never.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Someone said Artest is losing 5.5 of his 6 mill due this season.

At least he still has a job. I would have lost mine.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

I'm glad to see the league took this seriously. If this is appealed and reduced I think I may have to end my loyalty to the NBA.

Peace.


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## LuolDeng (Feb 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> I'm glad to see the league took this seriously. If this is appealed and reduced I think I may have to end my loyalty to the NBA.
> 
> Peace.


It lost a lot of mine with what happend today.


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## airety (Oct 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> I'm glad to see the league took this seriously. If this is appealed and reduced I think I may have to end my loyalty to the NBA.
> 
> Peace.


I'm the exact opposite. You just rewarded the city of Detroit for their absolutely disgusting and revolting behavior.

The NBA has broadcast a message loud and clear-taunt our players, throw beer on our players, call our players racial words. If they retaliate, we'll make sure to cripple their team.

Utterly sickening. The NBA proves again it's nothing more than a whore to the almighty dollar. I hope the player's association strikes next contract negotiations, I hope David Stern loses his job. And I wish nothing but the worst luck to the Detroit Pistons and even moreso any and all of the fans involved in that disgusting display of inhumane action.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Suspended players are not paid, and cannot practice or sit on the bench during games.

Meanwhile, Oakland County prosecutors said Sunday that criminal charges are imminent in the now infamous Pistons/Pacers brouhaha.

“You never say never, but I can’t conceive that were won’t be at least some charges coming out of this,” said James Halushka, a deputy Oakland County prosecutor in charge of warrants and investigations.

Who will be charged and when the charges will hit remains undetermined. 



http://www.freep.com/news/latestnew...96_20041121.htm


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>airety</b>!
> The NBA has broadcast a message loud and clear-taunt our players, throw beer on our players, call our players racial words. If they retaliate, we'll make sure to cripple their team.
> 
> Utterly sickening.


Did you read Sterns statement?



> ``The message the league sent was so powerful to players that they'll never do that again,'' Pistons CEO Tom Wilson said.
> --
> The NBA also has to ``redefine the bounds of acceptable conduct for fans attending our games and resolve to *permanently exclude those who overstep those bounds*,'' Stern said.


That includes Pistons fans.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_y...slug=ap-pacers-pistonsbrawl&prov=ap&type=lgns


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

What about put up like in a Hockey game the glass that seperates fans from players.


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## airety (Oct 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Did you read Sterns statement?


I watched the entire press conference. It's talk. Complete and utter talk. I also noticed he didn't fine the Pistons' organization a single penny. Those courtside seats are going nowhere. The amount of money you spend on your seats will still dictate whether you're going to be disciplined for taunting players. And with the extremely high costs of courtside seats, and the most audible taunts coming from those courtside seats, it means nothing is going to be done.

Honest to God, if I'm the player's association and some of those fans are not convicted to lengthy prison sentences and denied any rights to sue the players, I'd rain hell on the NBA. Absolute hell.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Are roster spots opened up for the suspended players?

Maybe they'll sign Rodman.


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## MagillaGorilla (Jul 8, 2004)

Waaay too harsh for Ron-Ron. The dude reacted the way anybody would react if someone threw a beer in their face/ also taking into account that h was just punked by Ben Wallace, the fan who's responsible incited all of this. Criminal charges against him should be filed too, then, for inciting a riot. 

In a perfect world we would all keep our cool. That fan knew what he was doing when he threw the beer. He knew Ron would charge him. 

(but i think Ron got the wrong guy- which messes thngs up more).

35-40 game suspension okay, but this is over the top considering the circumstances.


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## airety (Oct 29, 2002)

Protective barriers don't make me happy. Those courtside seats are great, and could be great for fans of the game if they weren't allowed to get away with everything. Baseball has the right system. If you jump onto the field, security pummels you and you are thrown in jail for at least the night. You do not get on TV. You are not discussed by the media. And if you go near a player, that player will beat you senseless. 

You can look to the Yankees vs Sox game 6 where A-Rod was called out for whatever and the fans were furious. Even as a Yankees fan, when they started throwing cups, batteries and whatever else on the field, that was totally uncalled for. Fans were arrested, removed, and a contigent of police dressed in RIOT GEAR were immediately out there ready to prevent any altercations.

I think it's sad I'm going to say this, but MLB proved to be a professionally run organization in this regard, and the New York Yankees organization should be applauded. The NBA and the Detroit Pistons should be jeered and absolutely ashamed.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MagillaGorilla</b>!
> Waaay too harsh for Ron-Ron. The dude reacted the way anybody would react if someone threw a beer in their face/ also taking into account that h was just punked by Ben Wallace, the fan who's responsible incited all of this. Criminal charges against him should be filed too, then, for inciting a riot.
> 
> In a perfect world we would all keep our cool. That fan knew what he was doing when he threw the beer. He knew Ron would charge him.
> ...


If Artest just went in there for verbal abuse a year would be understandable. The man got a ****in beer thrown in his face, way to harsh. Half the season should of been the extremist of punishment that happened. 

Lets put Stern in a small room and throw loads of popcorn, beer, and soda at him. Then for a finally throw a chair at him.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

Some of you really amuse me. He is justified for going into the stands and throwing punches because he had a beer thrown in his face? Um, have any of you guys been to one of these Chicago clubs? Having beer spilled on you is inevitable, yet you don't see riots breaking out at every club. 

Ron had a ****ing beer thrown at him and tbat would've been the extent of the damage if he kept his cool and allowed security to arrest the perpetrator. Instead he took matters into his own hands and attempted to make someone pay. Excellent job David Stearn by hitting the players where it hurts - their wallet. These actions are inexcusable and the parties involved should be disciplined to the fullest extent of the law.

You need to pick your fights with caution. You fight when your life, or the lives of your loved ones are at risk. You don't start fighting because someone damaged your sensitive ego. 

Be a man and know what your responsibilities as a <b>HUMAN BEING</b> and <b>PROFESSIONAL</b> are.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> I'm glad to see the league took this seriously. If this is appealed and reduced I think I may have to end my loyalty to the NBA.
> 
> Peace.





> Originally posted by <b>airety</b>!
> 
> I watched the entire press conference. It's talk. Complete and utter talk. I also noticed he didn't fine the Pistons' organization a single penny. Those courtside seats are going nowhere. The amount of money you spend on your seats will still dictate whether you're going to be disciplined for taunting players. And with the extremely high costs of courtside seats, and the most audible taunts coming from those courtside seats, it means nothing is going to be done.
> 
> Honest to God, if I'm the player's association and some of those fans are not convicted to lengthy prison sentences and denied any rights to sue the players, I'd rain hell on the NBA. Absolute hell.


I think you two are usually pretty sharp, but I think these two pretty opposite opinions are equally wrong.

Wynn- If the suspensions are appealed and reduced, I don't see how the NBA would be to blame for that, and how, therefore, they would be less deserving of their support.

I mean, that'll be through some kind of arbitration or legal process which the NBA won't have much choice but to accept.

Similarly, Airety, how is it right for the NBAPA to react against the NBA based on what happens in the criminal process against the guys who assaulted the players. Unless I missed something, the state of Michigan's judiciary isn't a branch of the NBA.

Point is, I think you guys are going a bit overboard and beginning to lose some perspective here about what the league can and cannot do.

The league can and should punish the players for their ridiculous behavior, but there are legal limits to what they can do. You can rest assured, unfortunately, that Artest will challenge exactly what that legal limit is.

At the same time, just because they announced these penalties on the players, I don't see why that excludes any changes to the way security is dealt with at games. But that's also not the kind of thing you can just call up a news conference and announce. Just as with dealing with the players, there are realistic limits as to what can be accomplished. That doesn't mean, however, that they aren't things that can be done and that nothing will be done.

Thus, I really don't quite understand the need to sanctify either group in this mess. There's plenty of blame to go around and plenty to do on both sides to make things right.


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## MichaelOFAZ (Jul 9, 2002)

Wow! I just heard the news regarding the suspensions. And I must say that I am totally suprised. The suspension on Artest has Larry Bird written all over it. I wouldn't be suprised if Bird and Stern had an off-the-record conversation where Bird suggested to Stern that he send a message by suspending Artest for the rest of the season. Bird was probably looking to dump Artest at his first opportunity, but after this incident, Artest was probably untradeable. Suspend him for the rest of the season and the Pacers don't have to pay him. Stephen Jackson was probably a patsy (so it doesn't look like they're picking on Artest) in this whole matter and the rest of the suspensions were probably more appropriate. In one way, I applaud Stern for making the statement, but I still think the suspension for Artest was too harsh. If he would have went into the stands and punched a fan for saying something to him (ala Vernon Maxwell), then I would have said the punishment fits the crime. But he retaliated because a fan threw something at him. Suppose the fan threw something and hit Artest in the eye and injured him for life? Would hitting a fan be appropriate then? I know that as an NBA player you have to keep your cool and walk away. But sometimes that just doesn't happen and you make bad decisions. But suspending for a whole season is kind of harsh.

Stern is also sending another message as well. Which is, "You can throw or threaten the leagues players as you wish and if you can get them to retaliate, we will suspend them." I realize that Stern said that fans would be banned for life, but come on, how do you govern that? How do you prevent a fan from never seeing an NBA game live? Do you have their faces plaster all over the walls of every stadium like the FBI's Most Wanted list? What prevents them from sneaking in, sitting in a different seat, or wearing a disguise. Besides if I could get one of the best players from my team's arch rival suspended for the rest of season ... I might consider it (Actually I wouldn't, but you get the point).


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>sp00k</b>!
> Some of you really amuse me. He is justified for going into the stands and throwing punches because he had a beer thrown in his face? Um, have any of you guys been to one of these Chicago clubs? Having beer spilled on you is inevitable, yet you don't see riots breaking out at every club.
> 
> Ron had a ****ing beer thrown at him and tbat would've been the extent of the damage if he kept his cool and allowed security to arrest the perpetrator. Instead he took matters into his own hands and attempted to make someone pay. Excellent job David Stearn by hitting the players where it hurts - their wallet. These actions are inexcusable and the parties involved should be disciplined to the fullest extent of the law.
> ...


See you're looking at this way too logically. While most of us law abiding, family rearing sports fans don't condone what Sprewell, Artest, Jackson, O'Neal, Kermit Washington, Vernon Maxwell, etc. have done that doesn't speak to the fan who is so tied up into idolizing these punks that they can never do any wrong in their minds. Personally, I would have approved of draconian style punishments for Artest, Jackson and O'Neal. Indy is lucky I'm not the commissioner because they'd all be done for the year. The Jermaine O'Neal incident was easily the most cowardly act of the night. According to Stern he would have gotten a bigger suspension were it not for his being restrained from entering the stands. What seems to be lost in the translation is one knothead in the crowd set off Artest. Artest then set off the arena and much of what was attributed to the fans happened as the Pacers were exiting the tunnel. But, I don't want to be seen as making excuses for anyone. They were all to blame. Guilty as sin. Everyone was to blame and the videotape should lead to criminal prosecution for players and fans alike. But, to find the ongoing fan worshipping for their fallen "idols" like the dozen or so people who had to rush down to the airport to show their support for the returning Pacers just tells me there are too many people with some seriously twisted priorities in life. Its a game. Laws and civility prevail. Not how some knothead felt about getting a beer tossed on him.

While many here talk of all this bravado how these players have to "defend" themselves from this embarrassment of having beer tossed at them or being called names and how they'd react like an irrational child in response as well, I wonder what your stance is on the Marine who killed the insurgent. I see many media outlets who want this guys head. Insurgents feining dead, dead insurgents booby-trapped, now thats a risk and one that needs a defense. A beer tossed on you? You've got to be kidding. Stand up like a man and point the guy out. Well, I guess he couldn't have done that since he apparently had no clue who did it. Now what if the Marines received fire and it came from the general direction of a yard with woman and children in it? Kill them all right? Close enough right? Marines life was on the line right? Gotta defend yourself right? Um, no. Unacceptable. If firing on civilians in the general direction from which you're taking fire is unacceptable - even with your own life on the line, I'm having a hard time accepting the notion that going into the stands to beat innocent bystanders senseless because someone threw a beer at you ain't gonna cut it either. If Kermit Washington could almost kill Rudy T, think Jermaine O'Neal could have killed that fan who was trying to get off the floor? Thats ok though right? He was just "defending" himself too.

The bottom line - and I almost find it hard to believe there isn't a consensus on this - is that no punishment could have been too severe. If nobody else agrees with me here, at least it appears David Stern does.


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## Qwst25 (Apr 24, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> If Artest just went in there for verbal abuse a year would be understandable. The man got a ****in beer thrown in his face, way to harsh.


I don't really understand this. After every Soccer game I've played, I have usually been hot, sweaty, and exhausted. If someone had thrown some beer on me, I can't imagine myself ever getting mad. I might even find it kind of refreshing. :yes: 

Now if I was walking down the street in regular clothes and someone had thrown some been on me, then I might be a little angry. But this wasn't the situation that took place.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

While we are mention moments of violence in the NBA, let's not forget what could have been a very bad scene when Shaq threw a sucker punch at the back of Brad Miller's head. The only reason Shaq is not thought of as a complete thug is because he has bad aim.


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## MichaelOFAZ (Jul 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TripleDouble</b>!
> While we are mention moments of violence in the NBA, let's not forget what could have been a very bad scene when Shaq threw a sucker punch at the back of Brad Miller's head. The only reason Shaq is not thought of as a complete thug is because he has bad aim.


Great point! Let's also not forget that Shaq is a much bigger draw than lowly Ron Artest. Stern knows where his bread is buttered.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>MichaelOFAZ</b>!
> 
> but I still think the suspension for Artest was too harsh. If he would have went into the stands and punched a fan for saying something to him (ala Vernon Maxwell), then I would have said the punishment fits the crime. But he retaliated because a fan threw something at him. Suppose the fan threw something and hit Artest in the eye and injured him for life? Would hitting a fan be appropriate then?


And since you're playing hypotheticals, what should happen if the fan threw a plastic cup of beer on Artest and Artest went into the stands and killed the fan with an incredibly forceful blow to his head delivered by a superior and physically imposing professional athlete? And then you find out it wasn't even the fan who threw the plastic cup of beer. 

That gonna square up with everyone since the fan "started it"? Would the fan still get what he deserves for embarrassing poor Ron Ron?

They both crossed the line. Thats what laws are for. Looks like Ron Ron got NBA justice today and it will be interesting to see what happens with the Michigan judicial branch of the NBA when they meter out their form of justice.


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## MichaelOFAZ (Jul 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> 
> 
> And since you're playing hypotheticals, what should happen if the fan threw a plastic cup of beer on Artest and Artest went into the stands and killed the fan with an incredibly forceful blow to his head delivered by a superior and physically imposing professional athlete? And then you find out it wasn't even the fan who threw the plastic cup of beer.
> ...


I simply said that the punishment would have been more appropriate had Artest initiated the confrontation. I never said that he shouldn't have been punished. Of course he should have. And since you're playing hypotheticals ... I'll answer your question. If a fan throws something at a player and the player, in the process of protecting himself and others goes to stop the fan by punching him and the fan dies in the process, then I guess fan won't throw anything again and other fans around him might think twice before they do. Please don't use the "imposing professional athlete" argument. It obviously didn't come into play when the fan decided to throw something at Artest. 

Please keep in mind, I'm not defending Artest. I'm not a fan of his. Never have been and never will be. You can check every post from the last 5 years and you'll be hard pressed to find one where I had something nice to say about him. My opinions are about this particular case. Nothing else. It's not about whether he should have been punished, it's about the degree to which he was.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>MichaelOFAZ</b>!
> 
> I'll answer your question. If a fan throws something at a player and the player, in the process of protecting himself and others goes to stop the fan by punching him and the fan dies in the process, then I guess fan won't throw anything again and other fans around him might think twice before they do.


So, if Artest singled out the right fan instead of the wrong fan as he did and killed him you are okay with this?

I'm speechless.

Fan gets killed because Ron Artest got plastic cup of beer thrown on him.

I'm sorry, but thats insane.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

I was in fact surprised Tinsley did not get suspended as well. You can see him in the tunnel with the broom/dustpan. Accounts have it that he went into the tunnel to get it to use as a weapon in the fracas. So if players who left the bench got the mandatory one game suspension even though they didn't do anything, how does a player who goes into the tunnel to grab something he can use as a weapon escape untouched?

I'm pretty sure he didn't have helping clean up the debris on his mind.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

*NBA like Bulls, hits low*

So whose marketing campaign rings the most hollow?

2003 - Bulls
Everything can change in the blink of an eye / No Excuses

2004 - NBA
NBA Action - It's Fantastic!


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MichaelOFAZ</b>!
> 
> 
> Stern is also sending another message as well. Which is, "You can throw or threaten the leagues players as you wish and if you can get them to retaliate, we will suspend them." I realize that Stern said that fans would be banned for life, but come on, how do you govern that? How do you prevent a fan from never seeing an NBA game live?


You'd be surprised at how scarily good the face recognition software that the casinos in Vegas to keep the "professionals" that they don't want at the casual tables out. 

From the moment they walk in they are tagged.

I say that to say...the technology is there.

Another weapon is to legally ban them and threaten them with prosecution if they are caught attending another NBA game. That would be deterrant enough for 90% of fans.


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## Qwst25 (Apr 24, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>MichaelOFAZ</b>!
> I simply said that the punishment would have been more appropriate had Artest initiated the confrontation.


Ron Artest DID initiate the confrontation. The guy in the black shirt certainly didn't, we've all seen the tape. Ron Artest attacked a fan who did nothing to him.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> "The penalties issued today deal only with one aspect of this incident - that of player misconduct," Stern announced, clearly livid about this fiasco. "The actions of the players involved wildly exceeded the professionalism and self-control that should fairly be expected from NBA players. We must affirm that the NBA will strive to exemplify the best that can be offered by professional sports and not allow our sport to be debased by what seems to be declining expectations for behavior of fans and athletes alike."
> 
> *Notice that Stern said that his ruling - enforced unilaterally, he stressed - involved player misconduct. According to two league sources, in the event of an appeal by the National Basketball Players Association, which you can expect Monday, it means almost little to nothing because the collective bargaining agreement stipulates that Stern himself will ultimately serve as the arbitrator. *
> 
> ...



Steven A Smith


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Stern cares only for the NBA as an organization. This is disturbing, because while that is his main duty, it need not be his only one.

Circumstances that should have mitigated the punishment:

1. The fans are downright awful. There should be no doubt in anyone's mind that if anyone started this fight, it was them. Proximate cause, they call it in law school; their duty of care was breached FIRST.

2. Artest has serious emotional problems. Suspending him for the rest of the season is fine, but Stern should have shown a little bit more compassion for the specific scene, rather than doling out policy from his high and mighty chair. If he had mandated anger management for Artest or other forms of counseling, I think it would have shown a bit of sensitivity and awareness of the situation, rather than looking at it from afar. 

3. The lack of security, granted. I don't know what to say about that, though, since the need for security at most sporting events isn't really foreseeable.

4. The refs, though adhering properly to protocol for a fight, have an additional burden as an expert in attitude control, etc., to get these players off the court BEFORE something like this escalates. Seriously, even if a fight didn't break out, did they really think that the fans would just STOP? They kept throwing stuff. They weren't going to stop. Though the actions that took place weren't foreseeable to the refs, they still had some cause-in-fact and should bear a burden in the responsibility too.

David Stern went to law school, and he worked at a very decent law firm. I don't know where his head is in this one-man adjudication... how is he going to oversimplify this situation?

By the same token, I'm sick of hearing about this on the media. ESPN, obviously, has to make this into a super-human interest story, but I also know that it'll become old news quick. To me, it already is.


By the way, as a law student, I've become a little obsessed with looking people up and checking their pedigrees and credentials. And just for the record, Bill Hunter (representative of the NBPA as quoted by Steven A.) has a much more respected background than Stern. I can't find a reasonable profile of David Stern, but he went to Columbia Law (a great school), then he worked at Proskauer Rose, a reputable New York law firm, working as outside counsel for the NBA. Then he basically made his way up the ranks in the NBA.

Bill Hunter worked in the DA's office, a job that provides a LOT more seasoning. He was then appointed a U.S. Attorney, which is an INCREDIBLY difficult position to get.


> He was appointed as United States Attorney by President Jimmy Carter in 1977, where he supervised the prosecution of members of Jim Jones' People's Temple, the Hell's Angels, and the Church of Hakeem, and advised the President on the pardon of Patricia Hearst. He has been active in local and national politics, serving as a member of the Oakland Board of Port Commissioners, and running for the U.S. Congress in 1990. From 1984 until his appointment with the Players Association, he managed his own law practice specializing in municipal finance, entertainment law, white-collar criminal defense, and other high-profile civil litigation.


http://www.nbpa.com/aboutus/execdirector.html

Maybe no one else finds that interesting, but Bill Hunter is the real star among professional basketball execs, in my book.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Showtyme,

There is some decent biographical information on Stern contained in David Halberstam's "Playing for Keeps". 

But Stern's entire professional career is his tenure at Proskauer Rose and various jobs in the NBA. It seems he got most of his training and knowledge while serving as Larry O'Brien's deputy.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Showtyme</b>!
> Stern cares only for the NBA as an organization. This is disturbing, because while that is his main duty, it need not be his only one.
> 
> Circumstances that should have mitigated the punishment:
> ...


So in your analysis the players did nothing wrong and everyone else including Stern did????????


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Showtyme</b>!
> Stern cares only for the NBA as an organization. This is disturbing, because while that is his main duty, it need not be his only one.


Stern is a god among sports execs, and has arguably done as much to expand the popularity of the sport beyond the diehard traditional fans as any of it's players have done.

While Hunter may have a more prestigious background...Stern <I>has the results</i>.

Every 5, 10, 50, and 100 million contract is due to the popularity he (and MJ) built into the business. 



The last thing he wants is for the soccer moms and evangelicals to attack the NBA the way they attack...say, mtv. And to that end, tough actions are called for.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Oakland County Prosecutor David Gorcyca said he repeatedly viewed a videotape of the melee at Friday night's game. He said authorities have identified and questioned a fan who they say threw a cup that hit Indiana's Ron Artest and started the brawl.
> 
> A resident of West Bloomfield Township confirmed in a telephone conversation with Auburn Hills police that he is that fan, Gorcyca said today. However, he failed to show up for a scheduled in-person interview, and authorities have lost contact with him.
> 
> ...


http://www.indystar.com/articles/8/196706-2628-092.html


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> 
> 
> So in your analysis the players did nothing wrong and everyone else including Stern did????????


It's not so much that as looking at the issue from a purely legal perspective. If this goes to any sort of outside legal arbitration (as it did with the Latrell Sprewell mess), then these are exactly the sort of points the league is going to have to defend against.

I personally think a lot of that stuff if bull****, but once you commit to that process and understand that you're going to be judged under it, you need to be able to justify your decisions at every turn.

It could, of course, go the other way, but I think Showtyme has a pretty solid footing for his points from a legal perspective. Administrative law, arbitration, and that stuff are somewhat inherently regimented and bureaucratic decision-making vehicles. Thus, they're prone to 1) take a somewhat middle position no matter what, 2) throw out or modify un-precedented decisions. I don't like it, but that's the way it is.


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## Dan Rosenbaum (Jun 3, 2002)

.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1929362



> Asked if Artest could claim self-defense, Gorcyca said: <b>"Even if someone did throw water, you don't have a license or privilege to punch him."</b>
> 
> John Green of West Bloomfield Township was the fan who threw the cup at Artest, Gorcyca said. The prosecutor identified Green -- a former next-door neighbor -- by repeatedly watching footage of the brawl.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> It's not so much that as looking at the issue from a purely legal perspective. If this goes to any sort of outside legal arbitration (as it did with the Latrell Sprewell mess), then these are exactly the sort of points the league is going to have to defend against.


I posted this a littler earlier in the thread and I've heard it said elsewhere:



> "The penalties issued today deal only with one aspect of this incident - that of player misconduct," Stern announced, clearly livid about this fiasco. "The actions of the players involved wildly exceeded the professionalism and self-control that should fairly be expected from NBA players. We must affirm that the NBA will strive to exemplify the best that can be offered by professional sports and not allow our sport to be debased by what seems to be declining expectations for behavior of fans and athletes alike."
> 
> Notice that Stern said that his ruling - enforced unilaterally, he stressed - involved player misconduct. According to two league sources, in the event of an appeal by the National Basketball Players Association, which you can expect Monday, it means almost little to nothing because the collective bargaining agreement stipulates that Stern himself will ultimately serve as the arbitrator.


That said, the NBA doesn't have to protect itself against any arbitration. If true, Stern has already had the last word.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Showtyme</b>!
> Bill Hunter is the real star among professional basketball execs, in my book.


Here's an article you may enjoy...and might change your mind...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=wojnarowski_adrian&id=1929028



> There isn't another sport where the commissioner commands such a respect out of the union rank and file, brings such a presence to it all like David Stern does with the National Basketball Association.
> --
> The NBA had to take its hits, but there was Stern swinging back, beginning with running Artest out of the game, with the courage to crush a franchise's championship hopes with these sweeping suspensions.
> 
> ...


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dan Rosenbaum</b>!
> .


I've always wondered what this means when someone posts just a period. Could you or one of the other guys who does this enlighten me?

Not being sarcastic, I truly have no idea.



> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> 
> 
> I posted this a littler earlier in the thread and I've heard it said elsewhere:
> ...


I don't think it's as air-tight as that. I hope it is, but I'm not sure. From what I've read, this is based on interpretation of the Commissioner's powers under Article XXXI, Section 8 of the CBA. It outlines the circumstancers where the commisioner is the arbiter, as opposed to the "special master" style arbitration used in other places in the CBA. It says:



> Section 8. Special Procedure with Respect to Player Discipline.
> 
> 
> (a) Any dispute involving (i) a fine or suspension imposed upon a player by the Commissioner (or his designee) for *conduct on the playing court* (regardless of its financial impact on the player), or (ii) *action taken by the Commissioner (or his designee) concerning the preservation of the integrity of, or the maintenance of public confidence in, the game of basketball* resulting in a financial impact to the player of $25,000 or less, shall be processed exclusively as follows:
> ...


However, if I was an NBAPA attorney, I'd be focused on the bolded part (my emphasis). It offers two circumstances under which the NBA can use the commissioner as arbiter.

1. Conduct on the court. This doesn't seem to apply since, literally speaking, most of the important misconduct didn't take place on the court. Of course this is literalist to the point of obscurantism, but there's a case to be made that the "letter of the law" is "on the court. That is, the commissioner's purview is that of regulating the average infractions and fights that happen in basketball games, not out and out riots that spill into the stands, and since this is the case, the commissioner doesn't have final say.

2. "Integrity of the game" doesn't seem to apply here. I'd look up the history of that phrase as a term of art, and I wouldn't be surprised that it largely deals with betting scandals, cheating and stuff like that, not fights.

I wouldn't be surprised if these issues themselves weren't possible matters for arbitration as precursors to an attack on the ruling itself. That is, the union would have to first attack on these grounds, and then use a favorable ruling to proceed on the suspensions themselves.

I don't at all think it's an open and shut case that the League would lose, but I do see how it's a case they could lose.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> I've always wondered what this means when someone posts just a period. Could you or one of the other guys who does this enlighten me?
> ...


I posted a pic earlier, and the hosting site pulled it. That came up.

Also, sometimes I post things, think better of it, and just delete the text and leave a placemarker in it's place. I can't delete my posts (is it this way with everyone, or just me?).


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Right... regular users can't delete posts, because if it's a thread starting post then it also has the effect of deleting the whole thread (that'd be a system "feature" of the VBB system that I guess we haven't been able to do anything about yet).


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Thank you for the answer Mike. I've asked a couple of times.

I think, except in Indiana, that this brawl stuff is starting to die down.

At least until Stern refuses to budge on the suspensions and they start carping about his power.

He may budge on one of the others just to be fair.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> In New York, the chief executive of the National Basketball Association's players union, Billy Hunter, said he intended to appeal the length of the league's suspensions of the Indiana Pacers' Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson. He also said that the union would request arbitration for <b>an independent review of the commissioner's unilateral power of suspension</b>
> --
> Sprewell was able to go to arbitration only because the choking incident occurred in practice and not on the court.
> 
> ...


I think Hunter is posturting and is setting the stage for the coming labor negotiations.



> Gorcyca said that Green was a former neighbor of his and also said, according to The Associated Press, that footage showed that when Artest was in the stands, Green grabbed him from behind and punched him. <B>Green, a season-ticket holder, has been barred from the Palace.</b> Green told reporters, however, that he did not throw the cup, The Associated Press reported.


Does he get a refund?

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/23/sports/basketball/23brawl.html?oref=login


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 1. Conduct on the court. This doesn't seem to apply since, literally speaking, most of the important misconduct didn't take place on the court. Of course this is literalist to the point of obscurantism, but there's a case to be made that the "letter of the law" is "on the court. That is, the commissioner's purview is that of regulating the average infractions and fights that happen in basketball games, not out and out riots that spill into the stands, and since this is the case, the commissioner doesn't have final say.


Obviously neither of knows for sure, but I've listened to talking heads today who aren't taking it quite so literally. The misconduct occurred during the game so that clause would seem to apply. I think it would become a grayer area if something happened on the way to a locker room. We've seen a parking garage certainly doesn't count courtesy of 'Sheed. I think Stern is on firm ground, but I guess we'll all find out soon enough.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

http://www.clickondetroit.com/sports/3938054/detail.html

Report: Fan In White Hat Has Criminal History

Man Accused Of Throwing First Cup Speaks To Police

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. -- Police continue to identify all of the fans involved in Friday night's brawl at The Palace of Auburn Hills, while the man accused of throwing the cup that sparked the incident speaks to Local 4.

<IMG ALIGN=LEFT SRC=http://images.ibsys.com/2004/1122/3937972.jpg>John Green, of West Bloomfield, was caught on tape throwing his cup of beer onto Indiana Pacers player Ron Artest, Local 4 reported. The act sent Artest into a rage in the stands, where players and fans then fought during the game between the Pistons and the Pacers.

Local 4 learned that Green has a criminal history, which includes the following offenses:

* 2003 -- Operating under the influence of liquor/operating while visibly impaired (second offense)
* 1989 -- Assault with intent to do great bodily harm less than murder
* 1989 -- Escape from prison
* 1986 -- Carrying concealed weapons
* 1986 -- Uttering and publishing, which is using a false, forged, altered or counterfeit record, deed or instrument to injure or defraud.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=576&u=/nm/20041123/sp_nm/nba_artest_dc_3&printer=1

Artest Expresses Regret Over Brawl with Detroit Fans

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Indiana Pacers forward Ron Artest has admitted that he regrets charging into the stands to fight Detroit Pistons (news) fans last Friday, sparking an ugly brawl that led to his suspension for the rest of the season.

In an interview published in People magazine on Monday, Artest said: "I just wish the situation hadn't turned out the way it turned out. I hope some of the Detroit fans I was interacting with before the game could come to my defense.

"(I'd) just like people to know how much I appreciate fans. You know, you've got fans, and 99.9 percent of them are great and 0.1 percent are jerks."

Artest made the comments a day after NBA commissioner David Stern gave the forward a 73-game suspension that is expected to cost the player close to $5 million in lost salary. 

"I'm trying to be positive. I'm a big fan of the Nobel Peace Prize."

:laugh:


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Thats a step in the appeals process.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

*More Trouble for Jermaine O'Neal*



> Jackson has no defense and probably got off comparatively lightly, as did Jermaine O'Neal, whose most egregious work might not have been captured on videotape. O'Neal, according to sources familiar with the ongoing criminal proceedings in suburban Detroit, is being investigated for allegedly having hit a police officer during the brawl. So just because the NBA gave O'Neal 25 games doesn't mean that's all he might get for his role in the melee.


Washington Post


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> 1. Conduct on the court. This doesn't seem to apply since, literally speaking, most of the important misconduct didn't take place on the court. Of course this is literalist to the point of obscurantism, but there's a case to be made that the "letter of the law" is "on the court. That is, the commissioner's purview is that of regulating the average infractions and fights that happen in basketball games, not out and out riots that spill into the stands, and since this is the case, the commissioner doesn't have final say.


Well, you're right about that  



> Union sources say it will contend the incident took place in the stands, not on the court.The players will also contend the Pistons were negligent in providing security, which could result in lawsuits.


LA TIMES


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Qwst25</b>!
> 
> 
> Ron Artest DID initiate the confrontation. The guy in the black shirt certainly didn't, we've all seen the tape. Ron Artest attacked a fan who did nothing to him.


check spongy fungy's avatar (sp) you'll see the guy was yelling something , it i doubt it was flattering , we take for granted that yelling at an nba player is something to be overlooked .

but there aren't many forums were a man can have a seat can yell obscene things at another man and the one being yelled at is expected to just ignore it and go about his job.

try doing it to a bus driver while you are riding or something of that nature.

basically i'm saying the guy didn't throw the cup of beer , but he wasn't exactly innocent either.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Damn, maybe I shouldn't have quit law school 

(Not a chance, economics is way more fun)


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

I don't think the "In the stands/out of the stands" will wash. He *left* the court...and he punched a non-player *on the court* after being ordered off of it by the police.

Maybe for the other two players though.


Did anyone see his interview on the Today show this morning?

Creepy. Ron was on meds, or out of his mind...or else there really isn't anything up there.

He had on his Tru Warier shirt, hat, and no less than three times did he raise the CD he's promoting to the screen to wave it to the camera. He was never really serious, and gave no impression that he won't being playing basketball for the next 10 months. He said that this was the third time he had been assaulted by fans, once in Boston and more recently in Cleveland (said he was "slimed" there) and said that was sorry it happened but he was just trying to keep it positive (raised the cd and waved it). When asked about the child that was crying he said that he had 4 children too, and there was a recent death in his family...but he was just trying to keep it positive (raised the cd and waved it).

Said David Stern was "cool" and had done a lot of good things for him but he was wrong to say he couldn't play basketball until next year, and that *he wanted to come back in time for playoffs, because that would be fair.*

Waved the cd one last time before saying goodbye.

I think that Ron is going to crack. Seriously.

I think when the CD doesn't do as well as he hopes...and that it sinks in that he's got nothing to do until 9/05 and no paycheck to boot...that we're going to see some bizarre behaviour.

Trying to get into the Pacers facility to practice with the team. Showing up at the all-star game demanding to play. Showing up in NY demanding to speak to Stern.

And maybe thats what Stern wants. To slowly allow him to purge himself from the league.

Anyone seen Isaiah Rider?


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## MichaelOFAZ (Jul 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> 
> 
> So, if Artest singled out the right fan instead of the wrong fan as he did and killed him you are okay with this?
> ...


It's been a while since I've read this thread, so bear with me as I catch up on this particular exchange.

There are couple of different issues as I see it. 

When I initially responded to this thread, I did not know that Artest hit the wrong guy. Moveover, I didn't know that the fan only threw beer on the Artest. I heard (at the time) that the fan threw a water bottle at Artest and he retaliated. So first and foremost, I should have gotten the facts straight. 

The case, as I know it today, is much clearer. Artest, who was not in any eminent danger, left the court and entered the stands to hit someone who was not involved in the conflict. That is obviously wrong on so many levels. 

I will say though, that fans need to be accountable as well. If those crazy white sox fans who attacked the first base coach for the Royals a while back were killed by a coach or another player, I wouldn't feel sorry for them and I wouldn't hold the player or coachable accountable for his death. A player has the right to protect himself at all costs. If a fan comes on to the field in a threatening manner, throws or shoots something on to the field in the direction of a player that could cause serious injury to the player, then the fan needs to be stopped immediately. If the fan happens to die in the process, so be it. Ultimately it was the fans choice to do what he did. However, the scenario that I just described does not pertain to the incident at hand.


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