# Bernstein firing away on "The Right Way" on THE SCORE



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Listen in!

http://www.670thescore.com



"To wrap yourself in this high-minded message of culture change is kinda hinkey."

"I want to make sure the ultimate goal is trophies."

"I think Skiles and Paxson are proud of themselves for being 'NBA Culture Warriors'"


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

"The goal of winning a championship should not be eclipsed by the goal of changing culture."

"For a professional basketball team the stated goal is to win NBA Championships."

"The Bulls goal to change culture is becoming independent of making a championship run."

"If Paxson wants to say he’s more likely to win a NBA Championionship with a clean culture, then I’d like to hear it." 

"I don’t want the primary goal to be to have a team full of nice guys."


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

Yeah, and if we're the Blazers or the Bengals(?)/Browns(?) then everyone is screaming about the kids and about Paxson not having control of his franchise.

It's something to talk about on a slow sports news Friday.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Did I miss something? Was Pau not traded for because he's considered a bad apple?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

“What I need to be assured of as a fan is that the mission of being NBA Culture Warriors has not eclipsed the goal of winning the NBA Championship.”

“It may be mission creep.”

“The stated goal initially was to win titles with nice guys. Then you receive plaudits for playing “the right way.” Next thing you know the mission has changed.”


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

TripleDouble said:


> Did I miss something? Was Pau not traded for because he's considered a bad apple?



No, its about Paxson wanting his type of people in the organization.

Again, thats a Reinsdorf call. The GM does it at the permission of the owner/managing partner.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Soulful Sides said:


> Yeah, and if we're the Blazers or the Bengals(?)/Browns(?) then everyone is screaming about the kids and about Paxson not having control of his franchise.
> 
> It's something to talk about on a slow sports news Friday.


There's also this big, broad place called the middle ground.

Your comment reminds me of all the horrified cries of "I don't want to be like the Knicks!" that accompany any suggestion of the Bulls dipping their toes into the luxury tax for a year or two.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

Question:

What evidence is there that Paxson has become a fanatic...a zealot...a unthinking, unreasoning devotee to "The Right Way"?


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

And now Boers and Bernstein are ripping on Illinois basketball. Those two are the biggest hypocrites.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

narek said:


> And now Boers and Bernstein are ripping on Illinois basketball. Those two are the biggest hypocrites.


Like ScottMay said, there's a middle ground.

And they should be ripping on Illinois basketball.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

Soulful Sides said:


> Question:
> 
> What evidence is there that Paxson has become a fanatic...a zealot...a unthinking, unreasoning devotee to "The Right Way"?



ok. maybe not the direct answer to your question (hyperbole, much?), but one of the first quotes i've seen from pax clears up why deng wasn't traded - and, guess what, it's cause of the CULTURE. 






> _CLEVELAND -- As the Bulls' John Paxson left the general managers' meeting in Las Vegas on Saturday, he placed a call to Gar Forman.
> 
> The Bulls' director of player personnel asked Paxson to guess which player was on the Berto Center practice court, sweating profusely, spending his All-Star break doing anything other than relaxing.
> 
> ...




and to the point of this thread, and the point B&B were making, i think that the business of this business is to _win CHAMPIONSHIPS_? no? 


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...2bulls,1,7559925.story?coll=cs-home-headlines 

{hadn't seen this version of the article posted yet}


and whether pax realizes it or not, i think he's just place the "franchise tag" on luol, and frankly on "the core" and while he's not "in love" with this players like this (i imagine his voice nearly breaking upon hearing about luol in the gym over ASB) but come on, sorry, but i'm still a little incredulous. 

at some point he's going to have to grow a set and trade one of them.

IMO.


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## dougthonus (Jul 18, 2006)

I am not listening to the interview, but based on these comments and previous experience I would speculate that when I shaved the hair clippings left in the sink probably had more knowledge of the Bulls than these guys.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

This is sort of a complex issue for Bernstein...

I'll start by saying that I really enjoy the show. 

But I think some of this may be driven by Bernstein's stated opinion of Deng as much as Skiles and Paxson. 

Over the past few years, these guys have been very supportive of Paxson and Skiles, so these comments sort of caught me by surprise. But when you take into consideration that Deng was allegedly the sticking point in negotiations (whether another of the core 4 was demanded or not) Bernstein's comments aren't as surprising.

Over the past 2 seasons, Bernstein has endlessly argued that Deng will never be better than a decent player. Even this season--as Deng has provided much evidence to the contrary--Bernstein has more or less maintained this position. His comments have altered slightly; now he says Deng will never be a superstar and that he's a good mid-range jump-shooter, but he still significantly discounts Deng's impact on the team.

So now, when Deng is supposedly the sticking point in a trade for Gasol, Bernstein starts in with the rant against the "right way." If this is a genuing concern of his, don't you think it would have surfaced before now? This seems to me to be evidence of Bernstein's unwillingness to admit he may be wrong about Deng.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Soulful Sides said:


> Question:
> 
> What evidence is there that Paxson has become a fanatic...a zealot...a unthinking, unreasoning devotee to "The Right Way"?


Sorry, but post search is currently limited to 500 posts.

http://www.basketballforum.com/search.php?searchid=381368

:bsmile: :bsmile: :bsmile: :bsmile:


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

The Truth said:


> This is sort of a complex issue for Bernstein...
> 
> I'll start by saying that I really enjoy the show.
> 
> ...


He doesn't like to admit he's wrong about anything. He doesn't like it when people point it out, or point out that he's changed his position.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

Welcome to two years ago.

I thought KC Johnson, mindful of the human beings involved and uber plugged-in on the local beat, reported Paxson had interest in Bonzi Wells. There's not too many bigger penises than Bonzi Wells. 

And we've been successfully baited again...


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

narek said:


> He doesn't like to admit he's wrong about anything. He doesn't like it when people point it out, or point out that he's changed his position.


The problem is usually that when people try to call him out for being wrong, they misrepresent his position, and then rather than admit that he's wrong, he defends himself against the misrepresentation.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

narek said:


> He doesn't like to admit he's wrong about anything.


I think that pretty much gives a summary of the board vs. Paxson arguments that have been here since I've started posting.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> And now Boers and Bernstein are ripping on Illinois basketball. Those two are the biggest hypocrites.


imo, there are *no two bigger morons *in the history of radio than the pompous, has-been hack of a journalist, terry boers and the untalented, pseudo-intellectual and arrogant dan bernstein. for those who listen, i'd only hope that your head hurt after listening to them for 10 minutes minimum, lord knows i can't.....

adding their opinion to *any *argument/discussion weakens *whatever* point that's trying to be made......

now back to your regularly scheduled inquisition.:thumbdown:


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

He also said " "I know [Gasol] would fill a need," Paxson said. "But Lu at 21 has an upside that I would like to see through. His skill level will get better. I've said from Day One, whatever his potential is he's going to reach it because he's so conscientious." "

I'll repeat my question in a different way: Is there ANY room for consideration of culture and the effect a player has on it in personnal decisions, or should it be completely and utterly thrown away?

In other words, if Rae Carruth, Ron Artest, Eddie Griffin, Jayson Williams, Ruben Patterson, and Qyntel Woods are acquirable and can guarantee Paxson a championship, should he stare only at the athletic talent in front of him?

Paxson talks about 'the culture' a lot. But I don't think it's his only concern. He's never said that. He's also talked about upgrading the talent. Toronto and Portland had concerns about their culture too. Clippers too. You need a mix.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Sorry, but post search is currently limited to 500 posts.
> 
> http://www.basketballforum.com/search.php?searchid=381368
> 
> :bsmile: :bsmile: :bsmile: :bsmile:



I don't get it.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

You guys better be careful in criticizing Boers or Bernstein, otherwise your comments might just be completely written off as blindly "attacking the source."


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

BULLHITTER said:


> imo, there are *no two bigger morons *in the history of radio than the pompous, has-been hack of a journalist, terry boers and the untalented, pseudo-intellectual and arrogant dan bernstein. for those who listen, i'd only hope that your head hurt after listening to them for 10 minutes minimum, lord knows i can't.....
> 
> adding their opinion to *any *argument/discussion weakens *whatever* point that's trying to be made......
> 
> now back to your regularly scheduled inquisition.:thumbdown:


IN MIKE NORTH WE TRUST!


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

Frankensteiner said:


> And we've been successfully baited again...


Careful, or they'll give you 'points'.

I'm still trying to understand how I scored. I just know its a bad thing.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

It seems to me that this disastrous offseason folks are belly aching about siginified a departure from the right way, botton down joe college prototype of the past. 

Drafting a corn-rowed international player. Drafting the upside college player with multiple red flags about his attitide and maturity over the more polished, humble collegian. Signing the primadonna free agent superstar with a history of coach clashing instead of a Roy Williams Kansas boy like Gooden. 

Maybe Paxson shouldn't have departed from the right way so drastically this summer. Judging by the posts in the Fire Pax thread, it seems like the torchbearers demand more right way, while Paxson is offering less.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> IN MIKE NORTH WE TRUST!


:lol: 

Throw in his partner Fred Huebner, and there's your two bigger morons.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-070222bulls,1,7559925.story?coll=cs-home-headlines



> "Really, though, the bottom line is I didn't want to part with Luol Deng," Paxson said.


I wonder what deals would make Paxson consider trading Deng, or Gordon. If Gasol isn't that name, I can only assume the biggest names would be the ones that makes Pax consider giving him up. KG comes to mind, whom Pax loves. I do not feel KG is the right move, but I have to think a guy of his caliber would make Pax think twice about Luol or Ben.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

theanimal23 said:


> http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-070222bulls,1,7559925.story?coll=cs-home-headlines
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what deals would make Paxson consider trading Deng, or Gordon.



Kobe Lebron Dwight Howard Yao Ming


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Jeez, I just thought it was interesting to hear some of these comments over the airwaves.

Boerrs is mailing it in and has been for years.

I've always thought Bernstein is a solid guy when it comes to discussing basketball, both in his role as a talk show host and when he was on the beat back in the MJ days.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Will there be a pod-cast available? I'd love to hear this clip, and any of Pax regarding this trade deadline.

Thanks.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> As the Bulls' John Paxson left the general managers' meeting in Las Vegas on Saturday, he placed a call to Gar Forman.
> 
> The Bulls' director of player personnel asked Paxson to guess which player was on the Berto Center practice court, sweating profusely, spending his All-Star break doing anything other than relaxing.
> 
> ...


I have to admit I find it slightly disturbing that gym time and culture change are what's on Paxson's mind when he's in Vegas "trying" to hammer out a deal with West FOR PAU GASOL.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> Will there be a pod-cast available? I'd love to hear this clip, and any of Pax regarding this trade deadline.


Doubtful. They usually only offer podcasts for certain interviews and segments.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> It seems to me that this disastrous offseason folks are belly aching about siginified a departure from the right way, botton down joe college prototype of the past.
> 
> Drafting a corn-rowed international player. Drafting the upside college player with multiple red flags about his attitide and maturity over the more polished, humble collegian. Signing the primadonna free agent superstar with a history of coach clashing instead of a Roy Williams Kansas boy like Gooden.
> 
> Maybe Paxson shouldn't have departed from the right way so drastically this summer. Judging by the posts in the Fire Pax thread, it seems like the torchbearers demand more right way, while Paxson is offering less.


TOUCHE`



> IN MIKE NORTH WE TRUST!


double touche`!!! (lol):worthy:


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Soulful Sides said:


> I don't get it.


perhaps just as well.


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## dougthonus (Jul 18, 2006)

> and whether pax realizes it or not, i think he's just place the "franchise tag" on luol, and frankly on "the core" and while he's not "in love" with this players like this (i imagine his voice nearly breaking upon hearing about luol in the gym over ASB) but come on, sorry, but i'm still a little incredulous.
> 
> at some point he's going to have to grow a set and trade one of them.


Sure, if it improves the team. However, maybe trading a 21 year old guy averaging 18.5/7 for a 26 year old guy averaging 20/9.5 who's had 2 major foot injuries in the past year (plantar facsciitis and a broken foot) might not do that. Especially if you have to give up other significant assets along with the 21 year old guy as was the case in this trade.

Some people seem to argue that the Bulls would rather lose than trade away their players. I think that's a silly view to take. The Bulls make trades on what they feel gives them the best chance to win. I don't think they decided that we just really like Luol Deng too much to trade him for Gasol because he's got such a nice smile and is really friendly. They decided that keeping Luol Deng, 1st round picks, and other good players gave them a better chance to win than Gasol did. 

Some may disagree with that, and that's fine. I think it was a close issue. I think the Bulls debated it quite a bit as well. I agree with the side the Bulls ultimately chose based on my best guess of what it would have actually taken to land Gasol, but I can see where other people are coming from who disagree. What I find surprising is the amount of people who think this was an absolute no brainer and Paxson should be taken to the woodshed for not doing this. It's like people have given Gasol this Tim Duncan like status which he clearly does not have.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Jeez, I just thought it was interesting to hear some of these comments over the airwaves.
> 
> Boerrs is mailing it in and has been for years.
> 
> ...


FWIW, I'm interested in hearing what he had to say. Thanks for sharing.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Frankensteiner said:


> I thought KC Johnson, mindful of the human beings involved and uber plugged-in on the local beat, reported Paxson had interest in Bonzi Wells. There's not too many bigger penises than Bonzi Wells.


Exactly what I was going to say. There was also talk that we were willing to put up with Randolph.


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## dougthonus (Jul 18, 2006)

> Exactly what I was going to say. There was also talk that we were willing to put up with Randolph.


I don't think such talk ever held any water. In one interview I remember, Paxson said flat out that he would not add Randolph to the team.


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## RageofDaBulls (Feb 2, 2007)

Soulful Sides said:


> Question:
> 
> What evidence is there that Paxson has become a fanatic...a zealot...a unthinking, unreasoning devotee to "The Right Way"?



*JR SMITH!!!! NUFF SAID*


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> I have to admit I find it slightly disturbing that gym time and culture change are what's on Paxson's mind when he's in Vegas "trying" to hammer out a deal with West FOR PAU GASOL.



I see your point. I think this post perfectly shows the disconnect between our perspectives. When I read that Paxson quote, I can see why he gushes over Luol. An extremely talented 21 year old driven to bust his butt and improve his game? A guy who has improved greatly over his first few years? Someone with a burning desire for success? That's the guy you want on his team.

However, I'd imagine (and I don't mean to put words in your mouth), that you see a GM who values an undertalented player who is a "gym rat" with "good jib" who is inherently doomed to mediocrity over perhaps a less hard-working but more talented player at a position of greater scarcity.

Anyway, it's an interesting anecdote for illustrative purposes.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

For the record, I think Bernstein is the best of any of the Score crew when it comes to talking hoops.


And Mike Murphy is a bigger idiot than any 6 people combined on the face of the earth.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

RageofDaBulls said:


> *JR SMITH!!!! NUFF SAID*



For those of you that continue to harp on JR Smith, you all should be forced to watch that bone head play. He has skills but has no understanding on how to play the game. He is truely a maddening talent.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> who's had 2 major foot injuries in the past year (plantar facsciitis and a broken foot) might not do that.


This is what turned me off to the idea of trading Deng and Gordon for Pau, 7 footers who have foot injuries tend to have more foot injuries later in their career. Pau is one more foot problem to turning into Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Pax rolled the dice with Ben Wallace and PJ Brown and frankly Pax's trades have not been so great, so I'm not too depressed about us comming away from the deadline with nothing.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

L.O.B said:


> For those of you that continue to harp on JR Smith, you all should be forced to watch that bone head play. He has skills but has no understanding on how to play the game. He is truely a maddening talent.


Instead we are forced to watch Tyrus Thomas perform these bone head plays, with even less talent.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

This whole thread is ludicrous.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

dougthonus said:


> It's like people have given Gasol this Tim Duncan like status which he clearly does not have.


The guy is the closest approximation to Duncan as exists in the NBA today -- a high-efficiency, primarily post-oriented player who can pass.

Check out their numbers:

http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2007/jh_ALL_PER.htm

Check out Mike McGraw:



> Pro: Gasol’s stat line compares favorably to Tim Duncan’s. Gasol is averaging 20.2 points, 9.2 rebounds and 2.3 blocks, compared to 20.4 points, 10.7 rebounds and 2.3 blocks for Duncan. Gasol has the higher field-goal and free-throw percentage of the two players.
> 
> The Barcelona, Spain, native is a smart, unselfish player who usually looks to pass or drive to the basket before launching one of his unsightly one-handed jumpers. Gasol could conceivably provide a low-post scoring option for the Bulls and make life easier for the perimeter players.
> 
> Gasol, 26, isn’t the greatest rebounder or defender, but he would be playing next to Ben Wallace. To get someone with those credentials, the Bulls will have to give back something significant.


http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/story.asp?id=281595

Nope, Gasol isn't as good as Duncan, particularly on the defensive end. But it is not at all a stretch to describe him as "Duncanlike."


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

jnrjr79 said:


> For the record, I think Bernstein is the best of any of the Score crew when it comes to talking hoops.
> 
> 
> And Mike Murphy is a bigger idiot than any 6 people combined on the face of the earth.


The fact that Mike Murphy and Mike North have sports radio shows says all that's wrong with sports radio. Mulligan and Hanley are the only two who spend most of their radio time talking about sports.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> I see your point. I think this post perfectly shows the disconnect between our perspectives. When I read that Paxson quote, I can see why he gushes over Luol. An extremely talented 21 year old driven to bust his butt and improve his game? A guy who has improved greatly over his first few years? Someone with a burning desire for success? That's the guy you want on his team.
> 
> However, I'd imagine (and I don't mean to put words in your mouth), that you see a GM who values an undertalented player who is a "gym rat" with "good jib" who is inherently doomed to mediocrity over perhaps a less hard-working but more talented player at a position of greater scarcity.
> 
> Anyway, it's an interesting anecdote for illustrative purposes.


This is an old, old theme...

See the thread and one of the posts 

K4E is a flair man, through and through. 

And, I think its always legitimate to question whether or not Paxson is keeping his eyes on the prize. I don't think his refusing to trade Deng for Gasol is evidence that he has become overly concerned about "jib". I think he believes in Deng's potential to be a great player and his desire to realize that potential. Who can argue with that?


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> It seems to me that this disastrous offseason folks are belly aching about siginified a departure from the right way, botton down joe college prototype of the past.
> 
> Drafting a corn-rowed international player. Drafting the upside college player with multiple red flags about his attitide and maturity over the more polished, humble collegian. Signing the primadonna free agent superstar with a history of coach clashing instead of a Roy Williams Kansas boy like Gooden.
> 
> Maybe Paxson shouldn't have departed from the right way so drastically this summer. Judging by the posts in the Fire Pax thread, it seems like the torchbearers demand more right way, while Paxson is offering less.


It's certainly true that Paxson took several big gambles this summer and they have not worked out as well as everyone expected. Maybe that's why he was so reluctant to deal for Gasol?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Good Hope said:


> K4E is a flair man, through and through.


I would not categorize myself that way at all. While I think some of the beauty of basketball is captured in the spontaneously brilliant and winning play of players like Pistol Pete, Magic and MJ I also appreciate the robotic yet efficient and masterful play of a guy like John Stockton. 

I would not write a player off just because he plays the game with flair. If he can do it while playing a winning brand of basketball, then I enjoy that kind of player. On the other hand, you would never see me watching the AND1 tour on television or anything like that.

If the Bulls could win the NBA Championship with a team of Stockton like players, I'd be happy.



> I think he believes in Deng's potential to be a great player and his desire to realize that potential. Who can argue with that?



Fine, but does he think that Deng will ever be a better basketball player than Pau Gasol?

I don't know.

All I know from KC's article and Paxson's quotes is that he respects his work ethic and that he was instrumental in the great "culture change" Paxson brought about.

The closest I see in KC's article is this....



> "I know [Gasol] would fill a need," Paxson said. "But Lu at 21 has an upside that I would like to see through. His skill level will get better. I've said from Day One, whatever his potential is he's going to reach it because he's so conscientious."


See, Paxson, yes, Gasol obviously fills a need, that goes without saying since you dumped Curry and Chandler, but he'd also instantly be the best player on your basketball team and will likely be so for the next 4 years!!!!

Does Paxson really think that having Luol Deng on this roster over Pau Gasol makes the Bulls more likely to win the NBA Championship?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> I see your point. I think this post perfectly shows the disconnect between our perspectives. When I read that Paxson quote, I can see why he gushes over Luol. An extremely talented 21 year old driven to bust his butt and improve his game? A guy who has improved greatly over his first few years? Someone with a burning desire for success? That's the guy you want on his team.
> 
> However, I'd imagine (and I don't mean to put words in your mouth), that you see a GM who values an undertalented player who is a "gym rat" with "good jib" who is inherently doomed to mediocrity over perhaps a less hard-working but more talented player at a position of greater scarcity.



I think Deng is a talented player. I would not call him "under talented" at all.

And I respect his work ethic and that he's a professional. All things being equal, I would prefer a player with a work ethic like Deng's.


I think that Deng spending a lot of time in the gym and his role in Paxson's "culture change" should not be on the forefront of Paxson's mind when he's in Vegas with a chance to land Gasol.

Deng is the best player on this team, IMO, and will likely be a very, very good NBA basketball player for years to come. I would be surprised if he ever reached a level of production like Gasol has. And, you can play Gasol at the 4/5, a position we currently have a need for and we’ll have even more of a need for as Wallace ages, while Nocioni can play the 3.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

dougthonus said:


> The Bulls make trades on what they feel gives them the best chance to win.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

They make trades based upon salaries and not much else.

The only guys they've traded for with big salaries were expiring ones. Hinrich hasn't made it through a year of his big new contract yet, but we saw what happened to Chandler after just 1 year of his.

In fact, there hasn't been a deal Pax has made where we actually got a quality player back (well, JR Smith, but who knew - who was supposed to know!).


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

Luol Deng is my favorite player on the Bulls, and yet even I can respect the Bernstein line of logic here. if you have a chance to add a big, and sacrifice a starter where you have depth.... it adds up.

I'm not saying we should have gotten Gasol at all costs, but I understand people who would have given up a lot. 


I will propose this though: more than just writing this off as 'Paxson was in love with keeping Deng'....... lets also keep in consideration that Deng is the only guy on this team who can guard big athletic SFs. who takes LeBron last night if Luol doesnt? Noc? VK? Please. and TT is not ready for any big minutes either.

Luol fulfills just as big a role on this team as Gasol would have by being added. just as necessary a role, if you ask me.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Dan Bernstein has been the jewel of the Score for the last 10 years. He's freaking hillarious, and he knows a lot about sports. What a combination.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> For the record, I think Bernstein is the best of any of the Score crew when it comes to talking hoops.
> 
> 
> And Mike Murphy is a bigger idiot than any 6 people combined on the face of the earth.


I can't believe Mike Murphy has a job.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

From the Chicago Tribune:



> *The Bulls were willing to abandon their organizational philosophy of avoiding players with character questions if the Rockets had bit on a Michael Sweetney-for-Bonzi Wells offer. The Bulls envisioned posting up Wells in smaller lineups and running offense through him.
> 
> But the Rockets declined.*


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> In fact, there hasn't been a deal Pax has made where we actually got a quality player back


Deng for Jackson Vromaine & Nate Robinson

Duhon for Matt Bonner


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Good Hope said:


> This is an old, old theme...
> 
> See the thread and one of the posts
> 
> ...


I can't wait to see how this entire outlook changes this summer during contract negotiations. If I am Deng's agent, I put a MAX contract offer out there and take nothing less. :smile:


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## eymang (Dec 15, 2006)

I can't stand Bernstein. He thinks he's the world's leader or something, just because he graduated from Duke; and he comes from the 'if you don't agree with me you're an idiot' school. He points out a lot of the obvious as far as basketball analysis goes IMO, he just trys to lay out thinking he sounds like a genius.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> I can't wait to see how this entire outlook changes this summer during contract negotiations. If I am Deng's agent, I put a MAX contract offer out there and take nothing less. :smile:


I doubt Deng gets the max, but I bet he gets more than Kirk or Tyson did (per year). Maybe 5 years, 60 mil.

What's the figure for a five year max deal these days?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

SALO said:


> Deng for Jackson Vromaine & Nate Robinson
> 
> Duhon for Matt Bonner


Paxson didn't trade for Deng or Duhon. He drafted both. The significance is a big one.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

...


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

eymang said:


> I can't stand Bernstein. He thinks he's the world's leader or something, just because he graduated from Duke; and he comes from the 'if you don't agree with me you're an idiot' school. He points out a lot of the obvious as far as basketball analysis goes IMO, he just trys to lay out thinking he sounds like a genius.


i dont like arrogance or Duke, but you have to admit he's more intelligent than most of the sports news people in this town. i dont know if thats saying tons, but he just is.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

DengNabbit said:


> i dont like arrogance or Duke, but you have to admit he's more intelligent than most of the sports news people in this town. i dont know if thats saying tons, but he just is.



I agree I listen to Boers and Bernstein because the level of discourse is a bit more intelligent than most of the sports talk radio out there.... but i have to say the fact that they're reasonably intelligent makes it even more annoying when they're intentionally petulant, rude, or hard headed... 

Bernstein has often gone on about how "everything is for the ring"... most annoyingly so in the context of the Bears or Bulls tanking late season games to get high draft picks... (I can't stand tihs argument... you need a culture and a team chemistry built around winning... and not taking late season games seriously because you're already eliminated does exactly the opposite...)


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> I can't wait to see how this entire outlook changes this summer during contract negotiations. If I am Deng's agent, I put a MAX contract offer out there and take nothing less. :smile:


Let's first see what Deng does this season with this obvious show of support. I think it'll mean a lot to him, and Gordon for that matter. And I think it'll motivate him to take the lead, and do more of what he did last night. And if that's what he does...., no arguments from me about his asking for what he's worth, which would be about the max. 

*This is a gamble on Pax's part, no doubt. He has anointed Deng as the leader of this team....Let's see what Deng does with it.*

And K4E, you're not a flair man? Come on, be honest  But I'm not saying you don't care about winning, I know you do, and I respect that. But I think you see victory through wild and sometimes unharnessed talent as more likely than through "hard work, dedication, grit, and a plan." And we both know that it takes both for victory to be sustained.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

I can't stand Bernstein. I think he's a contrarian just for the sake of it. He sometimes oversimplifies arguments just for the effect , ie. "Chris Harris is just bad at football" but it just comes across as disingenuous. In their eyes you can make the dumbest argument as long as you sound smart doing it. 
Their show is a bunch of audio drops and random thoughts. I won't even get into Boers. The true talent on the score are the younger guys.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

spongyfungy said:


> Their show is a bunch of audio drops and random thoughts.


That's really what I listen to the show for. I think it's pretty funny.

I certainly don't listen to it for quality sports discussion. Hell, half the time they admit to not even watching the games they discuss.

I don't know really know of many sports radio shows that are good sources of intelligent and thoughtfull sports discussion.

However, I do like it when Boerrs and Bernstein take a hard-lined stand on ethical issues (i.e. the Jamar Smith incident, Pierre Pierce, etc.) and really go after some of the people who try to justify their actions simply because they play for their favorite team.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

The Truth said:


> That's really what I listen to the show for. I think it's pretty funny.
> 
> I certainly don't listen to it for quality sports discussion. Hell, half the time they admit to not even watching the games they discuss.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying the audio drops are not funny. I crack up pretty hard when I hear them but it's the equivalent to "that's what she said" Everyone's afraid of slipping because you know they'll play it on the show. I had to pull over the side of the road when they played buffone's "peanus tillman" but if I want to hear solid sports talk I'll listen to Hanley and Mulligan. 

They do go after the stereotypes such as the "blue collar work ethic" they hate so much and they cringed when someone asked about it to Ben Wallace but this city does love hard working athletes and I think the "right way" falls under that"


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*maybe what B&B are wondering, and i am wondering as well, is when does the conversation move from "the culture" and start becoming "our goal is to contend/win it all"?*



i mean we all know the culture was broken and that pax and skiles have a certain (if not rigid) belief system. ok. i get it. no headbands. hard work. practice, practice, practice. 

but when does "the need" (ie: a frontcourt scorer) as pax said, actually get filled? i'm all for a rasheed type deal where we get something for nothing, but that's fantasy really. and pax knows it.

at least skiles is talking about home court advantage in the playoffs and not some namby pamby culture stuff. hopefully the bulls actually make it out of the first round this year. that would be progress. 

wow. i really am embracing the dark side, aren't i!? i think it's a good look for me. 



:cheer:


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Well, I really do think by now that the converation isn't about "culture."

Whatever needed to be fixed with that was fixed long ago.


I do think the conversation in Paxson and Skiles' world IS about contending and winning it all.

There does remain a glaring need for low post scoring, however.

Paxson does deserve criticism for his failure to have addressed this need by now.

I'm just saying that THAT criticism is at this point a completely and totally different conversation from the "culture/right way/jib" repairs.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Well, I really do think by now that the converation isn't about "culture."
> 
> Whatever needed to be fixed with that was fixed long ago.
> 
> ...






John Paxson said:


> "But one of the things in this business is *changing the culture* of your team around, and that can be difficult to do. We've been able to do that, and Luol is a big reason why."



no. he can't shut up about it!


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> no. he can't shut up about it!


OK. Score one for the Miz.

But saying Deng was a big part of changing the culture is still not exactly the same as the insinuation that Culture Wars is what has kept Pax from finding us a big.


I think Pax deemed Deng untouchable because he is our best player and getting better, not because his jib is spit shined and polished (even if it is).


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

spongyfungy said:


> I can't stand Bernstein. I think he's a contrarian just for the sake of it. He sometimes oversimplifies arguments just for the effect , ie. "Chris Harris is just bad at football" but it just comes across as disingenuous.


You probably could have found a better example than this, since the Chris Harris thing really does speak for itself.

also, B&B do go with the majority sentiment on a lot of issues... especially big ones like steroids and unfair college coaching practices.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> OK. Score one for the Miz.
> 
> But saying Deng was a big part of changing the culture is still not exactly the same as the insinuation that Culture Wars is what has kept Pax from finding us a big.
> 
> I think Pax deemed Deng untouchable because he is our best player and getting better, not because his jib is spit shined and polished (even if it is).


Do you think Deng is going to be a better player than Gasol in the next 7 years? 

That quote that mizenkay posted might be the most disturbing declaration I've ever read from Paxson. He did not say that Deng was going to be better than Gasol. He knows that Gasol would fill a need. But the only rationale he gave for not trading Deng was that Deng's work ethic would enable him to reach his ceiling. 

Okay. 

It's certainly possible that the Grizzles wanted too much. It's possible that the article was a fluff piece intended to make Deng feel better. But I've seen an emphasis on hard work influence almost every single move in the past 4 years and I'm wondering how big a role it played in this situation.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

rwj333 said:


> Do you think Deng is going to be a better player than Gasol in the next 7 years?



I think that's entirely possible, yes.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Question is, by better, do we mean stats or impact, or both? 

With the way our team is assembled, it's tough to say who would have a better impact, Deng or Gasol. Gain Gasol's post offense and passing, but you lose Deng's D. 

I wish the deal did could have been done without the Big 3. But that won't happen unless the NYK pick turns out being Gold.


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## LIBlue (Aug 17, 2002)

It is funny. When I see Paxson talking about changing the culture, I assumed it was changing the "culture of losing". Losing is a mindset, and Deng has helped change that on the Bulls.

Pau Gasol = Tim Duncan? Come on. Gasol has never lead his team to a victory in a playoff series. He is not a perrenial all-star. he is not an NBA first team all-defense player. He is not leading his team this year, even after returning from injury.

Plus, it was not Deng for Gasol. It was Deng + Gordon or Hinrich + PJ Brown + a 1st round pick + financial inflexibility due to a max contract, all for a very good, but not superstar player, who has injury problems this year.

So, a team of:

Hinrich, Duhon
Sefolosha, Griffen
Nocioni, Kryhapa (sp)
Gasol, Thomas, Sweeney
Wallace, Allen

is clearly superior to:

Hinrich, Duhon
Gordon, Sefolosha
Deng, Nocioni, VK
Brown, Thomas, Sweeney
Wallace, Allen

I guess I do not see it, especially if a top ten pick this year nabs a good player, which is likely.

Now trading Chandler looks like a bad move, but gutting a franchise for a "Duncan-like" big man (insert sarcasm here) makes little sense.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

LIBlue said:


> It is funny. When I see Paxson talking about changing the culture, I assumed it was changing the "culture of losing". Losing is a mindset, and deng has helped change that on the Bulls.
> 
> Pau Gasol = Tim Duncan? Come on. Gasol has never lead his team to a voctory in a playoff series. He is not a perrenial all-star. he is not anNBA first team all-defense player. He is not leading his team this year, even after returning from injury.
> 
> ...


Good post, though I disagree on your assessment of Gasol. I believe that Gasol is not very far below Duncan's level at all. Your point about Duncan leading his team to a championship is well taken, though, and I really can't argue against you. I'm not sure if dealing for Gasol would've been the right move or not (though I wanted to for the right price), but I don't feel bad about our situation now at all...


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