# Shaq Is Great Mourning A Disgrace



## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

To be quite frank with you I'm less and less of a basketball fan thanks to people like Mourning.The man is representative of the self absorbed modern day athlete who is void of any semblance on integrity. I am a huge fan of Shaq because he is in many ways a throw back to a time when athletes deserved respect and admiration ; he has integrity , a sense of humour and a love of the game - you are very lucky to have him. Mourning on the other hand is the anti-shaq. He should be ashamed of himself...If he had a shred of decency (which I know he does not) he would send all those millions he STOLE from Toronto back to the Toronto Fans.He is probably the victim of a poor moral upbringing but even someone with basic moral fibre knows what a FRAUD he really is.Mouring you are not worthy of wearing the same uniform of Shag let alone playing on the same court. No wait a minute , your suffering from a horrible career threatening injury , yeah right. You are a dishonest , disgraceful personification of what is wrong with the modern day athlete. Prove me wrong , return your buy out money...or prove me right ( keep it and laugh all the way to the bank).My guess is , I'm right..
Don't get me wrong people , I have to cheer for Miami because I love the people there and I think Shaq is just a very genuine human being but on the other hand I would not be heart broken if Mourning did not win a championship.


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

Well don't expect Heat fans to share your sentiments. The vast majority of Heat fans love Zo, including myself. He's done some great things for this organization and the fans of Miami. He has donated his entire salary this year to charity, so he's not completely heartless. He's not Kobe Bryant. :biggrin:

I am aware that Zo pretty much screwed Toronto. But you'll have to excuse me because I could care less about that. I could care less about Toronto.


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## Heatmagic84 (Apr 22, 2005)

That's fine that's your opinion.

I however disagree.

What's wrong with the NBA these days are the young kids that come in and dog it through the regular season because they are frustrated and feel the season is over. They get paid top dollar and absolutely give up on the season.

Zo has always been the exact opposite. He has always been a warrior. The guy that fights night in and night out no matter what the circumstance is. A good example of this was the last game of the season this year. The game really meant nothing but you would never know with him in the game. I saw him tip a ball and as it was bouncing out of bounds he started screaming CHRISTIAN GET THE BALL!! GET THE BALL CHRISTIAN DAMNIT! If you've seen Christian, dude is hobbled and there was no way he was going to get it lol. Everyone else realized it except Zo, he started smiling later but that's just him being him.

This was a man that had years of his career shaved off and almost his life. He has never wanted anything more than to win, every night this man gave you the same intensity if you kept up with his career, an absolute pitbull. His love for the game and will to win forced him to make some poor decisions, but who can blame him. He deserves a chance to win.


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

Please dont misunderstand me ..I think I was quite clear that I like Miami and in particular Shaq... Its all well and good that he is giving money to Charity ( thats very nice )...But would it not be FAIR that he donate that money to the team he ripped off... And yes I know you don't care for Toronto..I dont share the sentiment when it comes to Miami... I think it was a FRAUD.......I think it was wrong and dishonest....I share your philosophy re. Koby ....But I think, Mourning quite frankly ,is cut from the same modern day athlete cloth...Its not a slight against you guys its a slight against FRAUD and the lack of integrity of Mourning... Take it in that vain ....My guess is the Charity stuff is all smoke and mirrors ; Donate the salary hes getting from the Heat for the rest of the year while he collects interest on the money he made off Toronto(the interest alone is probably more than we make in a year)....Suffice to say I don't think he will be lining up at any soup kitchens anytime soon....


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

I disagree with almost everything you've said, I think you're generalizing Zo from alot of false statements from Toronto. Anyways, it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it...


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> I disagree with almost everything you've said, I think you're generalizing Zo from alot of false statements from Toronto. Anyways, it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it...


Ok , I'll play along .....Which "False Statements"....The fact that he was traded to Toronto in the Carter deal then claimed due to health reasons that he could not play? The fact that he took a buy out of several million dollars?,the fact by some miracle his health made a sudden turn for the better to the point that he could play basketball at a playoff level (of course not until after getting his money and getting the team of his choice -forget those silly contracts).......???? 

You may be quite right and the media may have a biased slant in Toronto..I'm more than happy to be corrected ( and no I'm not being sarcastic)


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

Who cares, we got him, we are deeper team, screw the Raptors. Is all about the Heat.


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

DWadeistheTruth said:


> Who cares, we got him, we are deeper team, screw the Raptors, Is all about the Heat.


Thats a mature and intelligent response..... This sensitive little girl is 6'4 and 220 lbs........There may be a generation gap here... In my generation integrity, honesty and fairness are not "stupid things"......,for perhaps then you might have noticed that I actually like the Heat....


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

in a way, i don't like zo for refusing to play for TO and yet still take so much money from them.. but when it comes down to it, Zo is just doing his business, and the ones at fault are the people in the Toronto organization for ever settling for that trade. they knew what they were getting and they still did it. i dont think it should come as a surprise that he got money for not playing.. a buyout is a buyout, and toronto should have known better.


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## nickrock23 (Mar 28, 2004)

whoever started this thread go away and never come back


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

c_dog said:


> in a way, i don't like zo for refusing to play for TO and yet still take so much money from them.. but when it comes down to it, Zo is just doing his business, and the ones at fault are the people in the Toronto organization for ever settling for that trade. they knew what they were getting and they still did it. i dont think it should come as a surprise that he got money for not playing.. a buyout is a buyout, and toronto should have known better.


I cant argue with that one ...Raptor management is not exactly overflowing with basketball savy... At least they managed to get a former Raptor and a quasi former Raptor into the playoffs.... What say you guys package Shaq up for us...We will send you the two Williams and a couple of conditional 1st round picks.... Ok , we'll throw in 5 basketballs...come on , its a great deal...PLEASE.... :biggrin:


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## Joker (Aug 7, 2002)

imadruid said:


> To be quite frank with you I'm less and less of a basketball fan thanks to people like Mourning.The man is representative of the self absorbed modern day athlete who is void of any semblance on integrity. I am a huge fan of Shaq because he is in many ways a throw back to a time when athletes deserved respect and admiration ; he has integrity , a sense of humour and a love of the game - you are very lucky to have him. Mourning on the other hand is the anti-shaq. He should be ashamed of himself...If he had a shred of decency (which I know he does not) he would send all those millions he STOLE from Toronto back to the Toronto Fans.He is probably the victim of a poor moral upbringing but even someone with basic moral fibre knows what a FRAUD he really is.Mouring you are not worthy of wearing the same uniform of Shag let alone playing on the same court. No wait a minute , your suffering from a horrible career threatening injury , yeah right. You are a dishonest , disgraceful personification of what is wrong with the modern day athlete. Prove me wrong , return your buy out money...or prove me right ( keep it and laugh all the way to the bank).My guess is , I'm right..
> Don't get me wrong people , I have to cheer for Miami because I love the people there and I think Shaq is just a very genuine human being but on the other hand I would not be heart broken if Mourning did not win a championship.


Maybe it's just me, but I think in more practical terms than you do. It takes two parties for a handshake, and Toronto knew that if Zo refused to play for NJ, wanted to play for a contender, as well as a buyout, he would do the same in Toronto. Almost everyone would agree he got the best of the deal, but it is in no way his fault. Boozer did a nasty thing in the last off season, but the ones to blame are the Cavs management... Celtics also did a smart business move in Feb when they got Walker for free. Vince forced a trade to New Jersey and tanked the whole season prior to that, Dampier finally plays like a star on his contract year and then does nothing after that, Mutombo got his buyout of how many millions before signing with New York a couple of years ago?

Also, since you love Shaq so much, he also forced a $30M salary on LA or Miami. That's just business... if you find someone to agree to your demands then you have yourself a deal.

Zo not only donated the 300k from this season he's also raised and donated $1.5 million before that... no one ever forced him to do such a thing.

I think you have a very biased opinion about Zo because you just don't think the deal he got was fair... it's true but that does not reflect at all Zo's personality.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Toronto knew that making the deal for Zo, he would not show up. They knew what they were trading for, and they didn't care. Zo's fault? I think not.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

To the originator of the thread, thank you for stating your opinion is a reasonable and respectful way. 

Most Heat fans will not agree with you though. We have seen nothing but a Zo who gives his all every night and gives a lot of time and money back to the community. He has been a sports icon in Miami, and what he did to other teams really doesnt affect me at all. Zo will always be one of my favorite players


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

thanks guys....I have vented and I must say I have been very impressed with the vast majority of points( with two childish exceptions). You have proven to me that the fact that I have always liked the Heat was not a bad choice because they have very classy fans.Having said that I will say this, had Mourning said "I will not play for Toronto , waive me and I too will waive the buyout clause so I can play for Miami" I would have respected him considerably more ; in fact I would have admired him........The way he went about it was WRONG....I would not teach my 3 year old to surrender his integrity for the almighty buck......Because when its all said and done , its all a man really has left is his integrity.... Mourning has made enough Millions over his career ; he could have closed off with a statement of character.....


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

imadruid said:


> Thats a mature and intelligent response..... This sensitive little girl is 6'4 and 220 lbs........There may be a generation gap here... In my generation integrity, honesty and fairness are not "stupid things"......,for perhaps then you might have noticed that I actually like the Heat....


Wow... I can not remember the last time I was edited....Loyalbull , at the very least , I hope I got a smile out of you with my retort ......I really just responded to the source.......... :biggrin:


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## Takeit2dahouse00 (Jun 12, 2002)

Sounds to me like someone is bitter that Mourning didn't want to be in Toronto and back home where he spent the majority of his career.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

I think Joker stated it perfectly when he said: "It takes two people for a handshake", or something like that. He didn't screw the Raptors though, the Raptors screwed themselves more than Zo.


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## Joker (Aug 7, 2002)

gian said:


> I think Joker stated it perfectly when he said: "It takes two people for a handshake", or something like that. He didn't screw the Raptors though, the Raptors screwed themselves more than Zo.



:cheers:


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

Takeit2dahouse00 said:


> Sounds to me like someone is bitter that Mourning didn't want to be in Toronto and back home where he spent the majority of his career.


Just a point , I would not define myself as bitter....Especially in view of the fact that I don't really think of myself as a Raptor fan.....Not to be redundant , but I like the Heat..... I JUST DON'T LIKE THE WAY MOURNING WENT ABOUT IT......Like I said, had he just said "look , I don't want to pay for Toronto , or New Jersey ...I want to go HOME and end by career in Miami.. Release me and I will wave the buy out because it FAIR to all concerned".... I think that would have been a statement of Character...Its clear that alot of fans hold him in high regard and I don't deny that they have valid reasons for their opinion ....BUT , I think if he had done it differently he would have retired as a gentleman beyond reproach..... Heres to you guys sweeping Jersey Though ( I dont have many things to say in a positive light when its comes to Carter aka Glass man)..... :biggrin:


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## IwishIwasAlilbittalla (Aug 14, 2004)

Well he didn't give the millions back to the toronto fans, but he did donate his entire year's salary to underpriviledged youth and Kidney disease charities. 
Zo's illness may have not been life threatening to him, but it is to many others and he has made a major contribution to help them out. 
Seems like a pretty classy move to me. 

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nba/story/8408181


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> I am a huge fan of Shaq because he is in many ways a throw back to a time when athletes deserved respect and admiration ; he has integrity , a sense of humour and a love of the game - you are very lucky to have him.


:whofarted

Seriously?


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## Dwyane Wade (Oct 12, 2004)

Dude you have no idea what your talking about, after all that ZO's been through, he knows his time is short and he wants a championship, and like others said he donated his Salary, and you call him selfish??....I DON'T THINK SO...Oh yes and by the way When the Raptors traded for him they knew what they were getting, and knew that that was likely to happen, AND if it weren't for ZO V.Carter wouldnt be on the nets now b/c zo's sallary balanced out the Trade...


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Toronto fans aren't bitter about Mourning not playing for us. That wasn't expected. But there are plenty of reasons to be mad at him.


My question to Zo would be:

*"Do you feel like you were entitled to the $10M paid to you by the Raptors?"*

That contract was for you to help the Nets win a championship. When things started going downhill you balked on that contract and used your health concerns to your advantage. The contract itself was uninsurable and the Nets took a big risk to sign you to it knowing your problems. They were one of very few teams interested in doing so. They took a chance on you and you told them to **** off when the Nets vehicle wasn't headed straight to the Finals.

Then you got your wish and were traded out of New Jersey. Not only were you unwilling to give Toronto the time of day, you forced General Manager Rob Babcock to come visit you in Miami to negotiate with you. You couldn't get out of New Jersey fast enough. You weren't even willing to take the one-hour plane ride to Toronto to express your concerns to the team. You ****ed straight off and planted yourself where you wanted to be.

So not only didn't you earn any additional money from the Nets, you certainly didn't earn any from Toronto, who you ignored in a most unprofessional manner. I'm more than willing to blame Babcock for giving you an offer of any amount, but the notion that you in any way deserved that money is both ludicrous and despicable.


And for Heat fans who think Zo is a charitible and amiable human being--he may very well be. But not in this situation. Before you rush to his defense, ask yourself: "If Alonzo had been traded to the Spurs/Pistons/Suns, would he have demanded a buy-out?" Probably not. I don't think he's giving back to Miami so much as he's just looking for anyone to piggyback him to the Finals.

You can be generous to charity and still be a selfish liar. And it's not like there aren't any benefits for rich people that give to charity, either.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> Toronto knew that making the deal for Zo, he would not show up. They knew what they were trading for, and they didn't care. Zo's fault? I think not.


I suppose he didn't even owe Toronto fans an explanation, either, right?

Like it would've been such a strain for him to issue a statement to Raptors fans. Or not take our money.

But I guess ignoring us and taking our money is pretty classy, in it's own way.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

I can understand why Heat fans love that he came back 'home' and did so to win. Imagine if he had left the Nets or Heat with MUCH less money, and went home for 1 last run. How much would he be the hero of others all about?

-Petey


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## AirBonner (May 28, 2005)

I don't like Mourning because I think he dishonored his contract to the teams and fans of NJ and Toronto. I hope that somehow the new CBA can prevent this sort of abuse in the future. Its just unfortunate that the league should have to put regulations on things like this because of the lack of integrity of multimillion dollar pre-madonna athletes.


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## JL2002 (Nov 30, 2003)

All this talk is simply professionalism....if you can't play, u are still suppose to show up, you are contracted to the Raptors. Rather taking a flight to Toronto, you took a flight to Miami and watched a Heat's game?....we're weren't complaining about that, then you tell the Raptors that you were unable to play and stayed to do check-up and other BS....sure watever.... then you told our GM to fly to where you were at that time (Miami?) and request a 10M buyout? .....arrghh.....Toronto is not New York, but we will take the discount..... then you're all OK again and starts to play for the Heat.... yes, i agree he has hearts with the Heats....but he could have dealt with this issue better than that. he should've did what Jimmy Jackson did, state that you don't want to help a rebuilding team, and you want to play for the championship and even though he's fined, he still made his case clear. Zo was just avoiding fines stating that he has medical problems and requested a buyout to join another team....we probably would've did the same thing paying him 10M buyout, but hey don't be an *** and say you want to play for the Heats and not the RAPTORS!


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## Jesus_Walks (Jul 11, 2004)

Heated said:


> He's not Kobe Bryant. :biggrin:


you sneaky little *******


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## WSU151 (Mar 13, 2005)

Geezus, imadruid, shut up!!!! Toronto was more than happy to buy Zo out. Why?? Well first of all, by trading for Zo, they were able to unload Vince Carter's contract, which is worth $29 million over the next two seasons -- plus whatever was owed him this past season at the time of the trade. Add that Carter contract to Zo's contract he signed with the Nets ($12 million over next two years), and, in the end, the ~ $8 million buyout of Zo saves the Raptors $30 TO $40 MILLION OVER THE NEXT TWO YEARS. Make sense? _They drop a $29 million dollar contract and pay 2/3 of a $12 million dollar contract. _ They no longer have to worry about his salary or Carter's salary! Tell me, would you rather have Zo around, pay him 10s of millions of dollars for him to potentially sit on the bench for a horrid team?? Or would you pay him a fraction of his total contract cost, and get rid of him, and save $4 to $8 million?? Would you rather pay a little to save a lot, or just spend all of it and get nothing in return?? 

Before people go sh!t piling Zo about the Toronto situation, please remember that Toronto was acting in its own self interest when they bought him out. It's all about the dollar. Hell, Toronto knew when they traded for Zo that he wasn't going to play for them. Why did they trade for Zo, then? To get rid of Vince's contract. They weren't hostage to the situation. It was the clear cut answer to a bad situation.



gian said:


> He didn't screw the Raptors though, the Raptors screwed themselves more than Zo.


No!! No!! No!! The Raptors didn't screw themselves at all!! Not in the long run!! They are going to come out so far ahead, it's unbelievable!! 



Here's a couple articles for those who have just slaughtered the history of the trade/buyout:

http://www.kotv.com/main/home/stories.asp?whichpage=1&id=77738

http://au.sports.yahoo.com/050211/3/3bgp.html


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## WSU151 (Mar 13, 2005)

speedythief said:


> I'm more than willing to blame Babcock for giving you an offer of any amount,


WHY WHY WHY?? Babcock made two great moves by getting rid of Vince's contract, and paying a fraction of Zo's contract. If Zo wasn't in the Raptors plans at all, why pay him his full contract amount?? Babcock most certainly did the right thing - he knew he was going to take a loss by buying out Zo, but the Raptors will SAVE FOUR TIMES THAT AMOUNT by getting rid of both players. Lose a nickel, gain a quarter...only on a scale of literally 100 million times bigger...how is that a bad deal??

You whiners have no business savvy whatsoever, or have just been so consumed by one side of the story that you are completely unable to see the whole picture. 

This isn't rocket science.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Don't make Shaq out to be angel, he has the biggest ego in basketball history.


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## MacDanny 6 (Jun 7, 2002)

Do Heat fans forget that Zo bailed on Miami a few years ago to go join the Nets and try to win a championship? If it wasn't for Shaq coming to Miami, Zo wouldn't give a crap about anything involving this franchise. If Wade or Shaq went down with an injury in the regular season and the team had a losing record, Zo would be complaining about how bad he wants to leave the team and join a contender.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

WSU151 said:


> WHY WHY WHY?? Babcock made two great moves by getting rid of Vince's contract, and paying a fraction of Zo's contract. If Zo wasn't in the Raptors plans at all, why pay him his full contract amount?? Babcock most certainly did the right thing - he knew he was going to take a loss by buying out Zo, but the Raptors will SAVE FOUR TIMES THAT AMOUNT by getting rid of both players. Lose a nickel, gain a quarter...only on a scale of literally 100 million times bigger...how is that a bad deal??
> 
> You whiners have no business savvy whatsoever, or have just been so consumed by one side of the story that you are completely unable to see the whole picture.
> 
> This isn't rocket science.


Why?

Because what incentive did we have to offer Zo a buy-out? Zo had no leverage. He wants to compete for a championship.

Had Babcock refused to negotiate a buy-out, he could've put pressure on Zo to cancel the contract altogether. Zo would've had to sit for this year and the next two seasons if he was unwilling to ditch the money. His window of opportunity for playing and competing isn't exactly huge. And with the limited action he's seen in the last few seasons, by the time his Raptors contract expires, he would've been on the shelf for the majority of five or so years--certainly not somebody a championship caliber team would want.

I think Babcock should've put the screws to him and forced him to leave the whole contract behind. He didn't earn it, anyways. THAT is business savvy.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Franco 5 said:


> Do Heat fans forget that Zo bailed on Miami a few years ago to go join the Nets and try to win a championship? If it wasn't for Shaq coming to Miami, Zo wouldn't give a crap about anything involving this franchise. If Wade or Shaq went down with an injury in the regular season and the team had a losing record, Zo would be complaining about how bad he wants to leave the team and join a contender.


 he didnt bail on Miami, Miami bailed on him. We wanted to start a new slate, and his contract/age wasn't part of the picture. BIG misunderstanding by many fans, even Heat fans about the Zo leaving for NJ times.


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

imadruid said:


> The man is representative of the self absorbed modern day athlete who is void of any semblance on integrity. Mourning on the other hand is the anti-shaq. He should be ashamed of himself...If he had a shred of decency (which I know he does not) he would send all those millions he STOLE from Toronto back to the Toronto Fans.He is probably the victim of a poor moral upbringing but even someone with basic moral fibre knows what a FRAUD he really is.Mouring you are not worthy of wearing the same uniform of Shag let alone playing on the same court. No wait a minute , your suffering from a horrible career threatening injury , yeah right. You are a dishonest , disgraceful personification of what is wrong with the modern day athlete. Prove me wrong , return your buy out money...or prove me right ( keep it and laugh all the way to the bank).My guess is , I'm right..
> Don't get me wrong people , I have to cheer for Miami because I love the people there and I think Shaq is just a very genuine human being but on the other hand I would not be heart broken if Mourning did not win a championship.


Wow after reading this i believe its one of the most idiotic things ive heard someone say about such a good guy. Ive been to his charity events, talked to him, and listened to his speeches. He is a very passionate man with what he does off the court in terms of helping the community and the underprivalaged. The man represents how a nba player should act off the court. If you knew what hes done for the community, and what he continues to do, youd be embarrased at what all you just said about him.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

ding ding ding

It's easy to make statements about someone when you don't know half the truth, anyone who knows or has been around Alonzo would laugh at your statements. It's not a bias, it's just stating the facts.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

RoyWilliams said:


> Wow after reading this i believe its one of the most idiotic things ive heard someone say about such a good guy. Ive been to his charity events, talked to him, and listened to his speeches. He is a very passionate man with what he does off the court in terms of helping the community and the underprivalaged. The man represents how a nba player should act off the court. If you knew what hes done for the community, and what he continues to do, youd be embarrased at what all you just said about him.


What did you think about Karl Malone going to the Lakers last year? What would you had thought if Karl Malone asked the Jazz to pay him while playing for the Lakers last year?

-Petey


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Petey said:


> What did you think about Karl Malone going to the Lakers last year? What would you had thought if Karl Malone asked the Jazz to pay him while playing for the Lakers last year?
> 
> -Petey


 Petey--

Your team paid him all that money, with all those years with all those question marks about his health...if you didn't, he woulda been in Detroit/San Antonio/Houston/Dallas and not in New Jersey in the first place. You overpaid for him to take a risk and put your team over the hump. It didn't work out unfortunately.

You traded him to Toronto and got VINCE CARTER, you got one hell of a deal. Why be bitter?


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## WSU151 (Mar 13, 2005)

speedythief said:


> Had Babcock refused to negotiate a buy-out, he could've put pressure on Zo to cancel the contract altogether. Zo would've had to sit for this year and the next two seasons if he was unwilling to ditch the money. His window of opportunity for playing and competing isn't exactly huge. And with the limited action he's seen in the last few seasons, by the time his Raptors contract expires, he would've been on the shelf for the majority of five or so years--certainly not somebody a championship caliber team would want.
> 
> I think Babcock should've put the screws to him and forced him to leave the whole contract behind. He didn't earn it, anyways. THAT is business savvy.


I see the whole point about trying to get something out of such an investment, but things like this happen all the time in the business/sports world. It's all about costs vs. benefits... 

In you scenario, Hold on. You're telling me that if Babcock is hard and doesn't negotiate a buyout, and Zo doesnt back out of the deal (...in that hypo situation, why would he? he's getting paid regardless), then you think it's smart for Babcock to pay the full contract and get nothing in return??

If Zo doesn't cancel the deal, why would Babcock want to pay him his full contract if Zo just sat and didn't play? Assess and cut your losses, pay a fraction of the total cost, and get rid of the guy. Toronto HAD NO PLANS FOR MOURNING - WHY KEEP HIM ON THE TEAM?? Zo is/was not going to get a huge contract anyway after the current one, so what good would it be to hold onto him so he doesn't get paid? Babcock was more worried about saving money for the team in the long run rather than Mourning's situation. The buyout helped both the Raptors and Mourning in the end. Anyone that's ever done "game theory/prisoner's dilemma" understands that both Toronto and Mourning ultimately made the choice that benefits both the most.


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

Petey said:


> What did you think about Karl Malone going to the Lakers last year? What would you had thought if Karl Malone asked the Jazz to pay him while playing for the Lakers last year?
> 
> -Petey


That has nothing to do with what i was talking about. I was talking about him bashing Zo and saying what a horrible person, etc. When in reality, he is a class act pro. He does things off the court that others should model after.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

RoyWilliams said:


> That has nothing to do with what i was talking about. I was talking about him bashing Zo and saying what a horrible person, etc. When in reality, he is a class act pro. He does things off the court that others should model after.


Things done on the court have no bearing on what type a human being someone is? Rasheed Wallace does plenty of charity himself, but the way he carries on and had in the past should have no bearing? TO and what he is doing to the Eagles should have no bearing on his character?

Honestly, I would have wanted the money too if I were in Zo's shoes, I'm only human, and I'm sure others would fall into the same boat. But just like how you say he is not a horrible person, he is no saint.

-Petey


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

Petey said:


> Things done on the court have no bearing on what type a human being someone is? Rasheed Wallace does plenty of charity himself, but the way he carries on and had in the past should have no bearing? TO and what he is doing to the Eagles should have no bearing on his character?
> 
> Honestly, I would have wanted the money too if I were in Zo's shoes, I'm only human, and I'm sure others would fall into the same boat. But just like how you say he is not a horrible person, he is no saint.
> 
> -Petey


If you read the post that starts the thread he states this. 



> The man is representative of the self absorbed modern day athlete who is void of any semblance on integrity.
> 
> He is probably the victim of a poor moral upbringing but even someone with basic moral fibre knows what a FRAUD he really is.
> 
> You are a dishonest , disgraceful personification of what is wrong with the modern day athlete.


And i said that hes wrong with the statements he made. Hes an all-pro off the court, and more people should act like him. Just because he had a buyout makes him a bad guy? So Emmitt Smith is a bad guy because he held out to get money? I wouldnt say so.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

RoyWilliams said:


> If you read the post that starts the thread he states this.
> 
> And i said that hes wrong with the statements he made. Hes an all-pro off the court, and more people should act like him. Just because he had a buyout makes him a bad guy? So Emmitt Smith is a bad guy because he held out to get money? I wouldnt say so.


Baseball and Basketball contracts are guaranteed, while football is not. I don't have a problem with it in football. In baseball and basketball yes. They are bad and evil!

I'm serious.

-Petey


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

RoyWilliams said:


> Wow after reading this i believe its one of the most idiotic things ive heard someone say about such a good guy. Ive been to his charity events, talked to him, and listened to his speeches. He is a very passionate man with what he does off the court in terms of helping the community and the underprivalaged. The man represents how a nba player should act off the court. If you knew what hes done for the community, and what he continues to do, youd be embarrased at what all you just said about him.



wow - he is pretty generous as he collects interest on 10 million dollars he did nothing to earn...Oh , he donated his salary to charity - The 10 million???????of course not his accountant told him to give up the funds he made playing for Miami and write it off against the interest he makes on 10 million......PS ; thanks PETEY.............


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

Oh yeah : if I had just made 10 million bucks for doing nothing I'd give 5 to charity plus my time....I would seriously - I'm a great guy arnt I????????? :biggrin:


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

WSU151 said:


> In you scenario, Hold on. You're telling me that if Babcock is hard and doesn't negotiate a buyout, and Zo doesnt back out of the deal (...in that hypo situation, why would he? he's getting paid regardless), then you think it's smart for Babcock to pay the full contract and get nothing in return??


He wants to play basketball, that's why. Nobody would want a player, even one as highly regarded as Mourning, who's played 30 games in five seasons and has a severe kidney disability. If Mourning *ever* wanted to play again, it would be in his best interest to cancel the contract.



> If Zo doesn't cancel the deal, why would Babcock want to pay him his full contract if Zo just sat and didn't play? Assess and cut your losses, pay a fraction of the total cost, and get rid of the guy. Toronto HAD NO PLANS FOR MOURNING - WHY KEEP HIM ON THE TEAM?? Zo is/was not going to get a huge contract anyway after the current one, so what good would it be to hold onto him so he doesn't get paid? Babcock was more worried about saving money for the team in the long run rather than Mourning's situation. The buyout helped both the Raptors and Mourning in the end. Anyone that's ever done "game theory/prisoner's dilemma" understands that both Toronto and Mourning ultimately made the choice that benefits both the most.


The buy-out only helps the Raptors if you say the alternative would be to pay Alonzo in full. It hurts the Raptors if another route would be to pay him nothing.

If Babcock had some brass ones he could've put Zo's feet to the fire. "Want to win a championship? Walk. Want to waste the last years of your career? Sit on that contract."

It isn't "the best for everyone" because it ****s us out of $10M, puts us right up to where the luxery tax threshold might be (discouraging us from spending our MLE), justifies Mourning's selfish bull****, and sets the precedent that any veteran player can bail on a team if he says he wants to win a championship.

If Babcock got Mourning to drop that paper he would've been a hero among League GM's. Instead he's another schill.


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

imadruid said:


> Oh yeah : if I had just made 10 million bucks for doing nothing I'd give 5 to charity plus my time....I would seriously - I'm a great guy arnt I????????? :biggrin:



No I would ,seriously .....I would ...Please feel free to talk about how wonderful I am....No . Actually I'd give 7 million to charity and donate 3 days - 40 hours a week to charity for 2 years.... God , I am so nice..... :biggrin:


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## Dumpy (Jan 6, 2005)

Look, I was thrilled when the Nets signed Mourning; I thought he'd be the missing piece to the team's championship hopes. And when his illness returned, well, that was just bad luck, and stuff happens. And then he wanted to try to come back and play, against all common sense, and I gave him a lot of credit for that. But then . . . the Nets' ownership had a little hiccup, and due to a strange set of circumstances and terrible timing, KMart was allowed--some would say forced--to leave as a free agent. The Nets also either traded or declined to resign a few other key components of their team, such as Kerry Kittles, Lucious Harris, and Rodney Rogers, although at the time Nets management insisted that their departures were solely personnel decisions, not financial ones, and history has since proven them to be correct ones. Jason Kidd, who underwent surgery at around the same time, was pretty disgruntled by the whole thing, although he eventually agreed to wait and trust Rod Thorn to fix things. Regardless, Zo immediately began a one-man campaign to rip the entire Nets organization, from ownership, management, down to the fans. Every day it was the same old story: Zo was firing away at whoever's name came to the lips that day. It was a shame, too, because I believed that even without KMart, Kittles, Harris, and Rogers, and happy and healthy Zo could have led this team to the division title. Alas, it was not to be. Mourning made it clear day after day that he didn't want to be a Net, that he wanted nothing to do with the organization. And it was more than just his words, which were pretty damning. It was his play, too. He wanted nothing to do with his teammmates. Zo refused to pass the ball. He was a black hole; every time he got the ball, he would drive to the hoop. The result? As many turnovers as field goals through the first month of the season (no joke). Yet Zo did not stop his campaign, continuing to blast team management and ownership. As a fan, I found his behavior juvenile and insulting. He wanted out, wanted to be released, bought out, traded, whatever, just so long as he didn't have to play for . . . that . . . New Jersey . . . team anymore. He wanted to play for someone else, anyone else, that had a better chance of reaching the finals. You see, Zo didn't want to be a major cog--he wanted to ride someone else's coattails to a ring. The Nets agreed to buy him out, and send him on his way, and offered him money to just go away. But that wasn't enough for Zo--for the Nets didn't offer him enough money! No, when it came right down to it, when given the chance to leave, become a free agent, and go where he wanted, he refused--BECAUSE THE NETS WOULDN'T PAY HIM ENOUGH TO DO SO. Read that again, so it sinks in. What was Zo really after, anyway? There really was only one answer: He wanted to stroke his ego. He wanted his money AND to play for another team where other players would win him a championship. And until it happened, he would continue to publicly insult the Nets organization on a daily asis. It reached the point where I publicly stated that, if I was in a position to do so, I would happily give away a first round pick for nothing in return, if some team would just agree to take Zo also. Unfortunately, I didn't have such power, and the CBA wouldn't allow it, anyway.

How could I go from being squarely in Zo's court to so fervently against him in just a few short months? It was solely due to his arrogant, petulant behavior. Now, I know that as Heat fans, you want to root for all your players, and try to find reasons to root for them. We all do; that's what makes us fans. But I submit that if there was ever a time when you could look past the laundry (i.e., the uniform), and see the person beneath, warts and all, and see that the Emperor has no clothes, this should be that time. Great, Zo gives money to charity. I'll bet Kenneth Lay did, too, and just about every other millionaire, despite what is in their hearts. And Zo showed his true colors by the way he acted towards Nets management and the fans. I've never despised a player in any sport. Until now, and you'll never get me to change my mind. Zo deserves our contempt, and nothing more.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> I disagree with almost everything you've said, I think you're generalizing Zo from alot of false statements from Toronto. Anyways, it's your opinion, and you're entitled to it...



Your right, Toronto are the bad guys. 

Oh wait, Zo's a god damn punk.


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

Dumpy said:


> Look, I was thrilled when the Nets signed Mourning; I thought he'd be the missing piece to the team's championship hopes. And when his illness returned, well, that was just bad luck, and stuff happens. And then he wanted to try to come back and play, against all common sense, and I gave him a lot of credit for that. But then . . . the Nets' ownership had a little hiccup, and due to a strange set of circumstances and terrible timing, KMart was allowed--some would say forced--to leave as a free agent. The Nets also either traded or declined to resign a few other key components of their team, such as Kerry Kittles, Lucious Harris, and Rodney Rogers, although at the time Nets management insisted that their departures were solely personnel decisions, not financial ones, and history has since proven them to be correct ones. Jason Kidd, who underwent surgery at around the same time, was pretty disgruntled by the whole thing, although he eventually agreed to wait and trust Rod Thorn to fix things. Regardless, Zo immediately began a one-man campaign to rip the entire Nets organization, from ownership, management, down to the fans. Every day it was the same old story: Zo was firing away at whoever's name came to the lips that day. It was a shame, too, because I believed that even without KMart, Kittles, Harris, and Rogers, and happy and healthy Zo could have led this team to the division title. Alas, it was not to be. Mourning made it clear day after day that he didn't want to be a Net, that he wanted nothing to do with the organization. And it was more than just his words, which were pretty damning. It was his play, too. He wanted nothing to do with his teammmates. Zo refused to pass the ball. He was a black hole; every time he got the ball, he would drive to the hoop. The result? As many turnovers as field goals through the first month of the season (no joke). Yet Zo did not stop his campaign, continuing to blast team management and ownership. As a fan, I found his behavior juvenile and insulting. He wanted out, wanted to be released, bought out, traded, whatever, just so long as he didn't have to play for . . . that . . . New Jersey . . . team anymore. He wanted to play for someone else, anyone else, that had a better chance of reaching the finals. You see, Zo didn't want to be a major cog--he wanted to ride someone else's coattails to a ring. The Nets agreed to buy him out, and send him on his way, and offered him money to just go away. But that wasn't enough for Zo--for the Nets didn't offer him enough money! No, when it came right down to it, when given the chance to leave, become a free agent, and go where he wanted, he refused--BECAUSE THE NETS WOULDN'T PAY HIM ENOUGH TO DO SO. Read that again, so it sinks in. What was Zo really after, anyway? There really was only one answer: He wanted to stroke his ego. He wanted his money AND to play for another team where other players would win him a championship. And until it happened, he would continue to publicly insult the Nets organization on a daily asis. It reached the point where I publicly stated that, if I was in a position to do so, I would happily give away a first round pick for nothing in return, if some team would just agree to take Zo also. Unfortunately, I didn't have such power, and the CBA wouldn't allow it, anyway.
> 
> How could I go from being squarely in Zo's court to so fervently against him in just a few short months? It was solely due to his arrogant, petulant behavior. Now, I know that as Heat fans, you want to root for all your players, and try to find reasons to root for them. We all do; that's what makes us fans. But I submit that if there was ever a time when you could look past the laundry (i.e., the uniform), and see the person beneath, warts and all, and see that the Emperor has no clothes, this should be that time. Great, Zo gives money to charity. I'll bet Kenneth Lay did, too, and just about every other millionaire, despite what is in their hearts. And Zo showed his true colors by the way he acted towards Nets management and the fans. I've never despised a player in any sport. Until now, and you'll never get me to change my mind. Zo deserves our contempt, and nothing more.


Wow!!!!! and I felt bad after I started this post....Well put......Yuh know Heat fans , there are alot of us who would have liked to see Miami Win BUT not with Mourning in the line-up.....


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Dumpy said:


> Look, I was thrilled when the Nets signed Mourning; I thought he'd be the missing piece to the team's championship hopes. And when his illness returned, well, that was just bad luck, and stuff happens. And then he wanted to try to come back and play, against all common sense, and I gave him a lot of credit for that. But then . . . the Nets' ownership had a little hiccup, and due to a strange set of circumstances and terrible timing, KMart was allowed--some would say forced--to leave as a free agent. The Nets also either traded or declined to resign a few other key components of their team, such as Kerry Kittles, Lucious Harris, and Rodney Rogers, although at the time Nets management insisted that their departures were solely personnel decisions, not financial ones, and history has since proven them to be correct ones. Jason Kidd, who underwent surgery at around the same time, was pretty disgruntled by the whole thing, although he eventually agreed to wait and trust Rod Thorn to fix things. Regardless, Zo immediately began a one-man campaign to rip the entire Nets organization, from ownership, management, down to the fans. Every day it was the same old story: Zo was firing away at whoever's name came to the lips that day. It was a shame, too, because I believed that even without KMart, Kittles, Harris, and Rogers, and happy and healthy Zo could have led this team to the division title. Alas, it was not to be. Mourning made it clear day after day that he didn't want to be a Net, that he wanted nothing to do with the organization. And it was more than just his words, which were pretty damning. It was his play, too. He wanted nothing to do with his teammmates. Zo refused to pass the ball. He was a black hole; every time he got the ball, he would drive to the hoop. The result? As many turnovers as field goals through the first month of the season (no joke). Yet Zo did not stop his campaign, continuing to blast team management and ownership. As a fan, I found his behavior juvenile and insulting. He wanted out, wanted to be released, bought out, traded, whatever, just so long as he didn't have to play for . . . that . . . New Jersey . . . team anymore. He wanted to play for someone else, anyone else, that had a better chance of reaching the finals. You see, Zo didn't want to be a major cog--he wanted to ride someone else's coattails to a ring. The Nets agreed to buy him out, and send him on his way, and offered him money to just go away. But that wasn't enough for Zo--for the Nets didn't offer him enough money! No, when it came right down to it, when given the chance to leave, become a free agent, and go where he wanted, he refused--BECAUSE THE NETS WOULDN'T PAY HIM ENOUGH TO DO SO. Read that again, so it sinks in. What was Zo really after, anyway? There really was only one answer: He wanted to stroke his ego. He wanted his money AND to play for another team where other players would win him a championship. And until it happened, he would continue to publicly insult the Nets organization on a daily asis. It reached the point where I publicly stated that, if I was in a position to do so, I would happily give away a first round pick for nothing in return, if some team would just agree to take Zo also. Unfortunately, I didn't have such power, and the CBA wouldn't allow it, anyway.
> 
> How could I go from being squarely in Zo's court to so fervently against him in just a few short months? It was solely due to his arrogant, petulant behavior. Now, I know that as Heat fans, you want to root for all your players, and try to find reasons to root for them. We all do; that's what makes us fans. But I submit that if there was ever a time when you could look past the laundry (i.e., the uniform), and see the person beneath, warts and all, and see that the Emperor has no clothes, this should be that time. Great, Zo gives money to charity. I'll bet Kenneth Lay did, too, and just about every other millionaire, despite what is in their hearts. And Zo showed his true colors by the way he acted towards Nets management and the fans. I've never despised a player in any sport. Until now, and you'll never get me to change my mind. Zo deserves our contempt, and nothing more.



One of the best posts I've read all year, I couldnt agree more.

I used to be a huge Zo fan and thought he was a class act. Its almost scary how wrong you can percieve a player from watching him on TV and reading about him. Zo gives to charity? Wow, guess he can do whatever he wants now and we should all forget what hes now done to 2 teams. Either that or we can see him for what he is, an arrogant, childish baby, who only cares about himself.


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

Where were you guys when I was fighting this battle solo???? :biggrin: But I'm glad your here...You have made me feel less guilty about this post....Heat fans for the most part were pretty classy about it........I would have been cheering for them were it not for Mourning....


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## Dumpy (Jan 6, 2005)

Yeah, I like Shaq (other than the double standard on fouls thing) and Wade, and in baseball I like a bunch of Marlins, too. And I'm down there a lot to visit my mother-in-law, who lives in Ft. Lauderdale, if that counts for anything. Seriously, though, the Mourning thing just cuts it for me.


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

imadruid said:


> Where were you guys when I was fighting this battle solo???? :biggrin: But I'm glad your here...You have made me feel less guilty about this post....Heat fans for the most part were pretty classy about it........I would have been cheering for them were it not for Mourning....


What battle, the battle of you pretending to know what kind of person Alonzo is? The battle where all you know is from what you read? You have never met the guy or saw with your own eyes what he does for the community. Ive done both, and im not a Heat fan, and im saying first hand he is a great guy. More athletes should be like him off the court. So go ahead and take your whining somewhere else because youll never convince me he is a bad guy for getting paid.


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## Dumpy (Jan 6, 2005)

Roy, more athletes should be like Mourning? I'm confused. Do you mean that more athletes should violate their contractual duty to perform their personal services at the level that was expected when the contract was entered? Do you mean that more athletes should publicly insult team ownership and management to the greatest possible extent? Do you mean that more veterans athletes should adopt the view that they "deserve" a championship, and conspire to manipulate the system in a way that will enable them to do so, even if it reduces the competitve balance and level playing field that must be in place for sports leagues to operate fairly? Do you mean that fewer athletes should place value in playing their entire career for one organization, through thick and thin, and instead show no respect or loyalty to a team or its fan base--or for that matter, teammates? Please elaborate.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

there are two Alonzo Mournings in this thread

1. The real Alonzo -- which is being portrayed by people who KNOW Alonzo. Not just things they think are true from newspapers and TV.

2. The fake Alonzo -- which is being portrayed by people who have some reason to hate Alonzo, whether he left your team or never showed up to your team, and want to make him look bad for that.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Guy there's only one Alonzo, and the Alonzo that held charity events and that you and Roy have met, is the same Alonzo that didn't respect the terms of his contract and tried piggybacking his way to a title like a little *****. It's easy to ruin whatever good reputation you had by making a ***** move like that.

Roy, you wanna talk about whining? I'd ask your boy Zo about that first.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

I don't think you understand man....

I know Alonzo personally. I'm blessed b/c he's done alot for me and provided me with alot of things and opportunities that I would never dream of doing without him. That's the Alonzo you guys don't know. And you can say whatever you want, but you don't learn about a players character from a newspaper. They make stories to sell papers, it's not always the truth, and I know this b/c I hear things before the papers sometimes, and they report things that just aren't true. You can say things about Alonzo all you want, and I'll continue to try and tell you the truth, you're entitled to your opinion, but the truth is, that Alonzo isn't the guy alot of you want to think he is.....


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> there are two Alonzo Mournings in this thread
> 
> 1. The real Alonzo -- which is being portrayed by people who KNOW Alonzo. Not just things they think are true from newspapers and TV.
> 
> 2. The fake Alonzo -- which is being portrayed by people who have some reason to hate Alonzo, *whether he left your team or never showed up to your team, and want to make him look bad for that.*


How is that a fake Alonzo if he did those 2 things?

-Petey


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

RoyWilliams said:


> What battle, the battle of you pretending to know what kind of person Alonzo is? The battle where all you know is from what you read? You have never met the guy or saw with your own eyes what he does for the community. Ive done both, and im not a Heat fan, and im saying first hand he is a great guy. More athletes should be like him off the court. So go ahead and take your whining somewhere else because youll never convince me he is a bad guy for getting paid.


If more players were like him, we would never have a season because they would all be too busy whinning and screwing teams over to actualy get a season done.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> there are two Alonzo Mournings in this thread
> 
> 1. The real Alonzo -- which is being portrayed by people who KNOW Alonzo. Not just things they think are true from newspapers and TV.
> 
> 2. The fake Alonzo -- which is being portrayed by people who have some reason to hate Alonzo, *whether he left your team or never showed up to your team, and want to make him look bad for that.*


That alone DOES make him bad Caron. I know that your probably the biggest Zo fan here, so I dont expect you to hear the other side, hell, I wouldnt if it was about Miller.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

R-Star said:


> That alone DOES make him bad Caron. I know that your probably the biggest Zo fan here, so I dont expect you to hear the other side, hell, I wouldnt if it was about Miller.


 ...but the problem is, like I've told Petey atleast 5 times, is that you guys don't know half the story when it comes to the signing with NJ, the "bickering" in NJ, and the trade/negotiations with Toronto. I'm not out here making things up to make Alonzo a candidate to be the next pope. I'm telling you things I know from my own personal experiences, and from sources alot more credible than any newspaper/TV/magazine you are reading. You can believe what you want, but the truth isn't in those sources most of the time.


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

Dumpy said:


> Roy, more athletes should be like Mourning? I'm confused. Do you mean that more athletes should violate their contractual duty to perform their personal services at the level that was expected when the contract was entered? Do you mean that more athletes should publicly insult team ownership and management to the greatest possible extent? Do you mean that more veterans athletes should adopt the view that they "deserve" a championship, and conspire to manipulate the system in a way that will enable them to do so, even if it reduces the competitve balance and level playing field that must be in place for sports leagues to operate fairly? Do you mean that fewer athletes should place value in playing their entire career for one organization, through thick and thin, and instead show no respect or loyalty to a team or its fan base--or for that matter, teammates? Please elaborate.


Did you totally miss the part where i said off the court, as in what he does for the community? I dont really care how he has "screwed fan, ownerships, etc" over. In a few years none of that will even matter. What does matter is how he is out in the community helping the poor families or children out there, the abused or neglected children, creating youth homes, and sports centers which will benefit the community for years to come.

To me that outweighs what you claim he did. Thats where i make my statement that he is a great character athelete, and why others should model after, because ive been there and watched with my OWN eyes what he does.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> ...but the problem is, like I've told Petey atleast 5 times, is that you guys don't know half the story when it comes to the signing with NJ, the "bickering" in NJ, and the trade/negotiations with Toronto. I'm not out here making things up to make Alonzo a candidate to be the next pope. I'm telling you things I know from my own personal experiences, and from sources alot more credible than any newspaper/TV/magazine you are reading. You can believe what you want, but the truth isn't in those sources most of the time.


Like I said, if I knew Miller and he told me, "nah man, me and Spike Lee get along fine, the media is lying." Then I would trust him too, but I wouldnt expect the rest of the world to.

Its easy for Zo to tell people hes close to that it wasnt his fault.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> ...but the problem is, like I've told Petey atleast 5 times, is that you guys don't know half the story when it comes to the signing with NJ, the "bickering" in NJ, and the trade/negotiations with Toronto. I'm not out here making things up to make Alonzo a candidate to be the next pope. I'm telling you things I know from my own personal experiences, and from sources alot more credible than any newspaper/TV/magazine you are reading. You can believe what you want, but the truth isn't in those sources most of the time.


Yes you have told me a few things about the situation a few times... but when it comes down to it, does it really matter?

Why is this an issue of he said, she said, media said? Look at the facts.

Facts:
*Zo signed a 4 year contract.
*Zo got hurt, Nets paid him.
*Zo gets better, wants out.

All true right? So even when he was hurt, a team honored their deal by paying him.

So when he is better he wants to break the terms of the deal and take all the money? True too.

Lets look at some more facts:
*Nets strip their team.
*Kidd possible asks out.

All true right? Yes, but should that matter one bit? NO, Zo has his contract - money coming.

Do I blame him? No. Like I said I would do the same. Is it the right thing to do? I don't think so.

-Petey


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> ...but the problem is, like I've told Petey atleast 5 times, is that you guys don't know half the story when it comes to the signing with NJ, the "bickering" in NJ, and the trade/negotiations with Toronto. I'm not out here making things up to make Alonzo a candidate to be the next pope. I'm telling you things I know from my own personal experiences, and from sources alot more credible than any newspaper/TV/magazine you are reading. You can believe what you want, but the truth isn't in those sources most of the time.


In all fairness, since there are two sides to every story, do you not think that you are hearing Zo's side?

I mean, there is nothing wrong with that, but hypothetically speaking, if my source was Rod Thorn or Babcock...would I also be telling the "truth"?


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## JL2002 (Nov 30, 2003)

RoyWilliams said:


> What battle, the battle of you pretending to know what kind of person Alonzo is? The battle where all you know is from what you read? You have never met the guy or saw with your own eyes what he does for the community. Ive done both, and im not a Heat fan, and im saying first hand he is a great guy. More athletes should be like him off the court. So go ahead and take your whining somewhere else because youll never convince me he is a bad guy for getting paid.


I don't get it, there's two side of the story? Good side and bad side!? what does charity and you knowing ZO and listened to his already prepared speech has to do with him not showing up in Toronto and asking for the 10M buyout to play for you guys? So you're trying to say that Babcock forced him to take the 10M while he is watching a Heats game? Seriously answer this, what will you say if Shaq stayed in LA after the trade lets say and Pat flew over there and came back paying him 15M out of his 20M contract. Then Shaq jumped back to LA again. He is a good guy off the court, but what does that tell you?


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## Dumpy (Jan 6, 2005)

How does one measure the heart of a man? Roy, it seems as though you are taking limited personal interaction in carefully choreographed public appearances, along with the fact that he gives away some of his money to good causes, and using it to make broad inferences about Mourning's character. If all it took to be a "great character" person was giving some money to charity and performing some public service, then I submit that I and many of my friends and coworkers should be revered as heroes. To me, it takes more than that. The fact that a person contributes to charity and gives away some of his time does not make him or her a great person. If so, think he easy it would be for the most vile and dispicable person in this world to rehabilitate his image! All you are saying is that he has some redeeming qualities, and I don't think that anyone is saying that he doesn't. He's not a monster--just a selfish, self-absorbed, petulant man who is not a team player and who believes that the world owes him something. I'd even submit that pretty much everyone has some number of redeeming qualities. Speaking of which, Shaq Diesel, it seems as though you feel you owe Mourning a debt of gratitude for something he did for you, or someone you know. That's great, and there's nothing that should take that away from you. But please understand, that your experience--and your debt--should not lead you to conclude that he has not acted selfishly and unfairly to others in other contexts. All the evidence suggest otherwise. And, for the record, I agree wholeheartedly with Charlie Brown, and I'm glad he beat me to it. Apparently you have heard one side of the story. That does not make it any more or less true than any other side. We just ask that you weigh all the evidence in a fair manner. For instance, you've stated that "I'm telling you things I know from my own personal experiences, and from sources alot more credible than any newspaper/TV/magazine you are reading. You can believe what you want, but the truth isn't in those sources most of the time." Are you saying that newspapers and reporters intentionally publish untrue, misleading, or incomplete statements? That seems to be rather unfair of you. You find me a reporter that has told you that they published a misleading or incomplete picture of the dispute, and I'll change my tune. But until then, you are just relying on something you've heard from Mourning's camp, and obviously, they have their own agenda, and their own perspective, which may or may not be supported by the facts. And, as a former professional mediator, I can assure you that everyone always has their own view of the facts; that doesn't make it correct, or even reasonable. Usually, it comes down to emphasizing the points that are in your favor, and diminishing the importance of facts that stand against you. But I digress.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Dumpy said:


> How does one measure the heart of a man? Roy, it seems as though you are taking limited personal interaction in carefully choreographed public appearances, along with the fact that he gives away some of his money to good causes, and using it to make broad inferences about Mourning's character. If all it took to be a "great character" person was giving some money to charity and performing some public service, then I submit that I and many of my friends and coworkers should be revered as heroes. To me, it takes more than that. The fact that a person contributes to charity and gives away some of his time does not make him or her a great person. If so, think he easy it would be for the most vile and dispicable person in this world to rehabilitate his image! All you are saying is that he has some redeeming qualities, and I don't think that anyone is saying that he doesn't. He's not a monster--just a selfish, self-absorbed, petulant man who is not a team player and who believes that the world owes him something. I'd even submit that pretty much everyone has some number of redeeming qualities. Speaking of which, Shaq Diesel, it seems as though you feel you owe Mourning a debt of gratitude for something he did for you, or someone you know. That's great, and there's nothing that should take that away from you. But please understand, that your experience--and your debt--should not lead you to conclude that he has not acted selfishly and unfairly to others in other contexts. All the evidence suggest otherwise. And, for the record, I agree wholeheartedly with Charlie Brown, and I'm glad he beat me to it. Apparently you have heard one side of the story. That does not make it any more or less true than any other side. We just ask that you weigh all the evidence in a fair manner. For instance, you've stated that "I'm telling you things I know from my own personal experiences, and from sources alot more credible than any newspaper/TV/magazine you are reading. You can believe what you want, but the truth isn't in those sources most of the time." Are you saying that newspapers and reporters intentionally publish untrue, misleading, or incomplete statements? That seems to be rather unfair of you. You find me a reporter that has told you that they published a misleading or incomplete picture of the dispute, and I'll change my tune. But until then, you are just relying on something you've heard from Mourning's camp, and obviously, they have their own agenda, and their own perspective, which may or may not be supported by the facts. And, as a former professional mediator, I can assure you that everyone always has their own view of the facts; that doesn't make it correct, or even reasonable. Usually, it comes down to emphasizing the points that are in your favor, and diminishing the importance of facts that stand against you. But I digress.


 ok....for example,

In recent weeks, there were talks that Ike Diogu (I believe it was) got a promise to be drafted by the Suns. When in fact, the Suns had never even worked him out. Those are "stories" made by the newspaper to sell papers, and draw interest. 

I also recall reading things during the Zo-NJ-Toronto saga about Alonzo going to Toronto or NJ to talk contracts, when he was in Miami the whole time (for the most part). People make up things to add to the story, and if you don't know better, you believe it. 

That's my point. The newspapers aren't a great credible source when it comes to sports rumors/insight.


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## Dumpy (Jan 6, 2005)

I see your point, but I'm not sure you chose the best examples. As for Diogu, I read those blurbs, too, but I wasn't under the impression that they were presented as facts, more that they were prefaced by "word on the street is that . . . " or "sources close to Diogu say that . . . ." In other words, rumor. So as the reader, we're on notice that it may not be accurate.

As for Mourning, I think what you are referring to must have happened when he was a member of the Raptors, and I don't know anything about any of that. As a Net, he played through December 7; then missed the next three games due to a collection of nagging injuries, and then was traded before the December 17 game. So if he was in Miami while a Net, then he has a heck of a doppelganger. My beef with him has to do with his behavior as a Net, not a Raptor. I personally believe that the Raptors were well aware that Mourning would never play or even report to them, but he needed to be included in the trade because of the silly salary-matching rule.

My impression is that these days newspapers take great pains to make it clear when they are talking about fact, vs. rumour or opinion, after the various reporting scandals over the past few years. I wouldn't be surprised if there are still lazy and/or sloppy journalists out there--after all, there are lazy and sloppy people working in every profession--but I really had the impression that they had the story correct, or at least mostly correct, in this case. For if Mourning was not using the press as his mouthpiece, to get his opinion heard, he could have easily called them on it or stopped talking to them, and he did neither. He just increased the level of his vitriol. I felt all along that it was a symbiotic relationship: Zo wanted out, and the reporters wanted a good story, so they used each other to get what they wanted. 

Again, don't get me wrong: I WANTED to like Zo. I WANTED to root for him. But in the end, he abandoned his team, his teammates, and the fans in order to achieve his own aims. Now, maybe that's normal behavior these days--you know, everyone looking out for number one, and everyone else be damned, and all that. But I can't condone it, because it violates every tenet that sports stands for, or should stand for. I'm happy to hear that you've got a good relationship with him, and that he does have all these good qualities, too, but it isn't surprising. Most people are pretty complex that way. But again, to me, merely giving away some money and a little time does not make one a great individual or a hero. Anyone can do that, maybe to a different extent based on the limits of their own resources, but anyone can do it. 

Do you watch the show "Lost?" Who are the great individuals on that show? Who are the heroes? Who are not? Would your answer change if you found out that they provided a public service or gave money to charity before the plane crash? Why or why not?


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## JL2002 (Nov 30, 2003)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> ok....for example,
> 
> In recent weeks, there were talks that Ike Diogu (I believe it was) got a promise to be drafted by the Suns. When in fact, the Suns had never even worked him out. Those are "stories" made by the newspaper to sell papers, and draw interest.
> 
> ...


those Diogu's stuff are rumours, unless ZO and/or Babcock tells us that ZO never received 10M buyout, otherwise the story really is a no brainer....Even a kid could make up a reasonable story about why ZO was in Miami the whole time and never reported to Toronto, and at the end got 10M buyout.....


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

Dumpy said:


> How does one measure the heart of a man? Roy, it seems as though you are taking limited personal interaction in carefully choreographed public appearances, along with the fact that he gives away some of his money to good causes, and using it to make broad inferences about Mourning's character. If all it took to be a "great character" person was giving some money to charity and performing some public service, then I submit that I and many of my friends and coworkers should be revered as heroes. To me, it takes more than that. The fact that a person contributes to charity and gives away some of his time does not make him or her a great person. If so, think he easy it would be for the most vile and dispicable person in this world to rehabilitate his image! All you are saying is that he has some redeeming qualities, and I don't think that anyone is saying that he doesn't. He's not a monster--just a selfish, self-absorbed, petulant man who is not a team player and who believes that the world owes him something. I'd even submit that pretty much everyone has some number of redeeming qualities. Speaking of which, Shaq Diesel, it seems as though you feel you owe Mourning a debt of gratitude for something he did for you, or someone you know. That's great, and there's nothing that should take that away from you. But please understand, that your experience--and your debt--should not lead you to conclude that he has not acted selfishly and unfairly to others in other contexts. All the evidence suggest otherwise. And, for the record, I agree wholeheartedly with Charlie Brown, and I'm glad he beat me to it. Apparently you have heard one side of the story. That does not make it any more or less true than any other side. We just ask that you weigh all the evidence in a fair manner. For instance, you've stated that "I'm telling you things I know from my own personal experiences, and from sources alot more credible than any newspaper/TV/magazine you are reading. You can believe what you want, but the truth isn't in those sources most of the time." Are you saying that newspapers and reporters intentionally publish untrue, misleading, or incomplete statements? That seems to be rather unfair of you. You find me a reporter that has told you that they published a misleading or incomplete picture of the dispute, and I'll change my tune. But until then, you are just relying on something you've heard from Mourning's camp, and obviously, they have their own agenda, and their own perspective, which may or may not be supported by the facts. And, as a former professional mediator, I can assure you that everyone always has their own view of the facts; that doesn't make it correct, or even reasonable. Usually, it comes down to emphasizing the points that are in your favor, and diminishing the importance of facts that stand against you. But I digress.


Yup your right, what you have read in the papers definately makes you right to call him a selfish guy who is only out for himself.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

RoyWilliams said:


> Yup your right, what you have read in the papers definately makes you right to call him a selfish guy who is only out for himself.



Then please, just tell us why we are wrong? All I've heard is, "Those are just stories from the papers. I KNOW Zo, hes a great guy, gives to charity, yadda yadda yadda." 

Why not tell us what you think happened in the situation then? Because continualy saying its just the papers making up lies isnt going to sway anyone. You've poster here more than long enough to know that.


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## Dumpy (Jan 6, 2005)

Newspapers are on the business of educating and informing, so yeah, I will rely on them. If not from there, where would you get any news or information you trust? After all, we do have freedom of the press here, so that americans can trust the content in newspapers to be fair and accurate. Freedom of the press also means that Mourning or anyone else is free to explain why he thinks he has been unfairly portrayed. He could even file suit if he believes that he has been slandered or defamed. Until he does so, I'll continue to trust that the papers reported this story accurately.


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

R-Star said:


> Then please, just tell us why we are wrong? All I've heard is, "Those are just stories from the papers. I KNOW Zo, hes a great guy, gives to charity, yadda yadda yadda."
> 
> Why not tell us what you think happened in the situation then? Because continualy saying its just the papers making up lies isnt going to sway anyone. You've poster here more than long enough to know that.


No im saying that all people do is read the papers and thats how they are basing their peception of him. The original poster made some comments on him based on what he has read. Ive said it before and ill say it again, whatever happened with him and the teams is minor to me. Yes its what the majority of people see, but im saying thats not just what you should base your perceptions of him as a person are. Maybe he is a shrewd business man, but that doesnt make him a selfish, whatever else name he called him, person. What matters to me is what ive seen first hand, from talking to him myself, working at his charity events, listening to others and himself talk about what he has done, and seeing the results of what he has done. Ive seen the people he has helped and the buildings he has helped put up for others.


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## Dumpy (Jan 6, 2005)

RoyWilliams said:


> No im saying that all people do is read the papers and thats how they are basing their peception of him. The original poster made some comments on him based on what he has read. Ive said it before and ill say it again, whatever happened with him and the teams is minor to me. Yes its what the majority of people see, but im saying thats not just what you should base your perceptions of him as a person are. Maybe he is a shrewd business man, but that doesnt make him a selfish, whatever else name he called him, person. What matters to me is what ive seen first hand, from talking to him myself, working at his charity events, listening to others and himself talk about what he has done, and seeing the results of what he has done. Ive seen the people he has helped and the buildings he has helped put up for others.


That's great. So, why couldn't he do that as a Raptor?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

RoyWilliams said:


> No im saying that all people do is read the papers and thats how they are basing their peception of him. The original poster made some comments on him based on what he has read. Ive said it before and ill say it again, whatever happened with him and the teams is minor to me. Yes its what the majority of people see, but im saying thats not just what you should base your perceptions of him as a person are. Maybe he is a shrewd business man, but that doesnt make him a selfish, whatever else name he called him, person. What matters to me is what ive seen first hand, from talking to him myself, working at his charity events, listening to others and himself talk about what he has done, and seeing the results of what he has done. Ive seen the people he has helped and the buildings he has helped put up for others.


I dont know man, I dont get to talk to the man like you do, or see what he does outside of the game, so I have to go by what I see and here as a person not close to him.

I dont think I'd be as upset as I am if I didnt like the guy to begin with. I was a huge Zo fan, but from the past year, it just scars the image of him I had in my head prior to these events.


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

R-Star said:


> I dont know man, I dont get to talk to the man like you do, or see what he does outside of the game, so I have to go by what I see and here as a person not close to him.
> 
> I dont think I'd be as upset as I am if I didnt like the guy to begin with. I was a huge Zo fan, but from the past year, it just scars the image of him I had in my head prior to these events.


Im not close to him, ive seen him each of the last three years at his events, and occasion get to go his house with a few other posters and get the chance to talk to him.


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

imadruid said:


> thanks guys....I have vented and I must say I have been very impressed with the vast majority of points( with two childish exceptions). You have proven to me that the fact that I have always liked the Heat was not a bad choice because they have very classy fans.Having said that I will say this, had Mourning said "I will not play for Toronto , waive me and I too will waive the buyout clause so I can play for Miami" I would have respected him considerably more ; in fact I would have admired him........The way he went about it was WRONG....I would not teach my 3 year old to surrender his integrity for the almighty buck......Because when its all said and done , its all a man really has left is his integrity.... Mourning has made enough Millions over his career ; he could have closed off with a statement of character.....


His actions have left many people questioning his character.......Its easy to be generous when you have just made 10 million for doing nothing other than refusing to honor your contract.....He could have closed off with class and proven some of you right - fact is he did not...He did not win a championship and many are happy for that fact...Sorry guys , despite the fact that some of you think hes a great guy - WHAT HE DID WAS W R O N G!!!!-There is no argument......What do you expect under the circumstances?????Toronto and NJ fans to say what a great Guy???He tarnished his own reputation- FACT


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

imadruid said:


> He tarnished his own reputation- FACT


Opinion


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

RoyWilliams said:


> Opinion


Based on actions that can not be denied.....................


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

imadruid said:


> Based on actions that can not be denied.....................


Do you honestly think you can make an opinion a fact. Everyones views in this thread are an opinion.

Im going to keep saying he is a good guy for what he does and others will say something different for what he did to other teams. Thats whats great about message boards. You can argue for days on subjects that will never be answered.


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

RoyWilliams said:


> Opinion


So , what was the point of your reply????????????????????????????????????


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

imadruid said:


> So , what was the point of your reply????????????????????????????????????


That its an opinion, not a fact, see my post above.


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

RoyWilliams said:


> That its an opinion, not a fact, see my post above.



Sneaky Roy - you changed it - that 2nd paragraph did not exist when I responded..... :biggrin:


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

imadruid said:


> Sneaky Roy - you changed it - that 2nd paragraph did not exist when I responded..... :biggrin:


You quoted a totally different post. :raised_ey 

There two, the one you quoted and then the one i changed to add more.


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

You are correct sir - but I was referring to the one you added to.....vis a vis the 2nd paragraph


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## Dumpy (Jan 6, 2005)

Well, I can see that you (plural) do not want to engage me in this debate, so I'll be leaving. I can see, though, that you've already made up your minds that his behavior in the community trumps his behavior towards teams, teammates, and fans. Personally, I fail to see why the two aren't mutually exclusive, and he couldn't continue to do all these wonderful things while performing happily for the Nets and/or Raptors. But, hey, I guess that's what makes him a professional athlete, and me just someone who has devoted his professional career to public service.


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

Dumpy said:


> Well, I can see that you (plural) do not want to engage me in this debate, so I'll be leaving. I can see, though, that you've already made up your minds that his behavior in the community trumps his behavior towards teams, teammates, and fans. Personally, I fail to see why the two aren't mutually exclusive, and he couldn't continue to do all these wonderful things while performing happily for the Nets and/or Raptors. But, hey, I guess that's what makes him a professional athlete, and me just someone who has devoted his professional career to public service.


I suspect its just like being convicted of a criminal offence - As long as you do the required hours of "community service" the actions no longer matter...Except in this case the subject is filthy rich and made 10 million dollars fo doing nothing other than refusing to honor his contact......I'm serious folks - if I made 10 million for doing nothing , I'd give 7 million to charity and commit to two years of solid community service - I'm serious - I would.....I'm a great guy.....


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

Dumpy said:


> How does one measure the heart of a man? Roy, it seems as though you are taking limited personal interaction in carefully choreographed public appearances, along with the fact that he gives away some of his money to good causes, and using it to make broad inferences about Mourning's character.


And your taking what you read about what he does in his business life, and making inferences to what he is as a person. And when you are talking to someone in there house that just met you, its hard to be choreographed.


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

Having said all this - I think you guys should know that I'm sorry you guys are done.....BUT theres alot to be said for the old saying "what goes around comes around"....I like the fans in Miami but I think all the negative Karma surrounding Mournings actions hurt you....Void of Mourning I would have been cheering for you....Once hes gone I think you guys will win ( as long as you keep Shaq and hes healthy)


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

RoyWilliams said:


> And your taking what you read about what he does in his business life, and making inferences to what he is as a person. And when you are talking to someone in there house that just met you, its hard to be choreographed.


No its not. I could make up a lie about myself right now, and tell everyone I meet in the next few weeks I work as a buisnesman for some big company. How would it be hard for me to tell you that? I could come up with many small details to make you belive me, and how would you know I was lying to your face?


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

RoyWilliams said:


> And your taking what you read about what he does in his business life, and making inferences to what he is as a person. And when you are talking to someone in there house that just met you, its hard to be choreographed.


Everything you do in your life defines you what type of person. Lets say a drug dealer treats his family well and donated money to the community (like Pablo Escobar), does that make him a great person because you can split his profession and his at home life?

-Petey


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

Petey said:


> Everything you do in your life defines you what type of person. Lets say a drug dealer treats his family well and donated money to the community (like Pablo Escobar), does that make him a great person because you can split his profession and his at home life?
> 
> -Petey


Big difference there and you know your just being petty by using a drug dealer as an example.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

RoyWilliams said:


> Big difference there and you know your just being petty by using a drug dealer as an example.


Actually it was the only example I could think of off the top of my head, as I used Pablo Esobar as an example. He had donated MILLIONS to Columbia and that is part of why they never helped the US go after him.

But what about the people who collect for charity and keep the money, or steal money in other ways?

How can you justify what he does for a living is NOT *part* of what defines him as part of a person?

-Petey


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

Petey said:


> How can you justify what he does for a living is NOT *part* of what defines him as part of a person?
> 
> -Petey


I lie all the time at work, does that make me a bad character person?


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

RoyWilliams said:


> I lie all the time at work, does that make me a bad character person?


Yes.

If you were caught lying, would there be actions taken against you? Possibly... because it is the WRONG thing to do.

And the simple fact you have to ask if lying is wrong in any type of situation sheds light on to why you don't think Zo has done wrong.

Lets say you knew the owner of the Raptors, and a player did what he did to Zo, would you think poorly of that player?

I'm just curious.

-Petey


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

Petey said:


> Yes.
> 
> If you were caught lying, would there be actions taken against you? Possibly... because it is the WRONG thing to do.
> 
> ...


Should the players think poorly of the organization after they are cut.

No actions wouldnt be taken, because you say things to get stuff done. If a company is late on a bill, i tell them if i dont get a check in a few days that i will have to file for collection. Will i actually do it if i dont get it in a few days? No but you lie to get things done. Thats business.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

this thread is gonna go down as one of the best ever on the Heat board....I can see it now...


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## Dumpy (Jan 6, 2005)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> this thread is gonna go down as one of the best ever on the Heat board....I can see it now...


Escobar is a great example, actually. His public service is part of a well-orchestrated plan to change the perception of him in the local community, so he is protected and safe. Many large-scale criminals do this; it is in their best interests. Think for example of Butch Cassidy, who was absolutely adored for similar reasons.

For me, the best way to discover what type of person someone is to to watch and see how they act and react when faced with difficult circumstances. When everything is going well in your life, and you have alot of money, everyone can act magnaminous. It is those other times that matter. To go back to my earlier example that no one seems interested in, if Mourning was one of the Lost survivors, how would he act? That would go a lot farther to defining who he is, and what type of person he is, then how much money he gives to various charities. Would he be the type that would hunt and fish for the group? Would he provide aid and comfort to tohers? Or would he sit around and sulk, and just care about himself? We'll never know the answer. Those of us in my camp believe that his actions towards the nets and heat indicate that he would probably do the latter; while you believe that giving money to charity and making a few public speeches would put him in the former group. We'll obviously never reach agreement here, but what is disappointing to me is that you are keeping your minds closed, and cannot even see that his actions towards the Nets, Raptors, his former teammates and the fans of those teams were selfish and dispicable. Again, no one here has said that he couldn't also have some redeeming qualities--as I've said, pretty much everyone in the world is complex in that way. But performing those community activities does not convert him into a saint, or make all of his decisions the right ones.

As for lying--like everything else, it all depends on the context. You'd be hard-pressed to find someone who will readily admit that they made bad decisions. As humans, we're wired to justify our actions and behavior after the fact, because we all believe, at heart, that we are good people. We can't all be right.


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## ghoti (Jan 30, 2005)

I was instructed by my pal Dumpy to come here and post my opinions on Zo until Heat fans believe he's a tool.

I don't need to do that.

Just wait until that shiftless, selfish, preening, egotistical knucklehead screws you over, too.

Of course, his ludicrous contract came in very handy.

(And like other Nets' fans have said, I actually like the Heat. I love Wade. I have always been a big Shaq fan. I bet all of my Ucash points on game 7 and lost. I just hate Zo, and you probably will too, someday.)


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## Dumpy (Jan 6, 2005)

I got to say, I enjoyed the discussion. It's really quiet here, though. Please feel welcome to visit the Nets board--it is very active, even in the off-season (at least we consider it the off-season by this point).


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

Zo rules, he's very nice, and very generous. I blindly believe this, and I hope I piss all you Zo haters off by doing so.


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## imadruid (Apr 27, 2005)

gian said:


> Zo rules, he's very nice, and very generous. I blindly believe this, and I hope I piss all you Zo haters off by doing so.


Not at all......You are free to blindly believe anything you like...I admire the loyalty of many of the fans here - BUT I have not changed my opinion...The Heat fans are a pretty classy lot...They have shown it through this whole thread ( for the most part)...Like I've said a few times , I like the Heat , I just think MOURNING IS A DISGRACE for what he did with New Jersey and Toronto.....And as I said before ; If I made 10 million dollars for doing nothing other than not honoring my contract , I would be amazingly generous also... :biggrin:


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

imadruid said:


> Having said all this - I think you guys should know that I'm sorry you guys are done.....BUT theres alot to be said for the old saying "what goes around comes around"....I like the fans in Miami but I think all the negative Karma surrounding Mournings actions hurt you....Void of Mourning I would have been cheering for you....Once hes gone I think you guys will win ( as long as you keep Shaq and hes healthy)


Without Zo we don't make it to game 7.


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