# Rank these Euro PF/C Prospects



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

I'm just starting to look at the 2nd and 3rd tier Euro Bigs in the upcoming draft and was wondering about others opinions on this group.

Vladimir Veremeenko
Erazem Lorbek
Johan Petro
Andrea Bargnani
Angelo Gigli
Uros Slokar


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> I'm just starting to look at the 2nd and 3rd tier Euro Bigs in the upcoming draft and was wondering about others opinions on this group.
> 
> Vladimir Veremeenko
> Erazem Lorbek
> ...


Bargnani - don't know much about him, but he's supposedly a talent; I'm looking forward to seeing more of him
Petro - i've read in one place he's lazy, another he's a fiery competitor; regardless, he's huge, athletic, and would be a nice project; I hope he's available when PHX picks
Veremeenko - seems to be in the mold of the solid, but unspectacular, finesse Euro combo Fs (VladRad, Hedo, Zarko)
Gigli - see 'meenko
Lorbeck - seems to be in the mold of the solid, but unspectacular, finesse Euro PF/Cs (Songalia, Medvedenko)
Uros Slokar - see Lorbeck


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## Matiz (Jun 5, 2003)

by potential:
Petro
Veremenko
Bargnani
Lorbek
Gigli
Slokar

the way they're playing right now:
Lorbek
Gigli
Veremenko
Bargnani
Petro
Slokar


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Are all of these pretty slim, or do any of them have NBA ready bodies?


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## ballstorm (Nov 30, 2003)

Petro is a 6'11-7'0 Center , 245 lbs approximately . He can put on 20-30 lbs without problem. But physically speaking , I would not be surprised if he was the best player in this list . Now he has not played very well this year but his team (pau-orthez , France) disappointed as a whole and it is always more difficult for a young player to play well when the team is not well-structured . Petro needs to work alot on his game , but what arguably needs the most of work is his ability to maintain a good level of concentration throughout a game . Right know , he is still very raw and most of the guys in the list are certainly better . 

It's almost impossible to rank the players , since most of them play in different leagues.. IMO , Veremenko is better than Gigli (rail thin) . 

Lorbek
Veremenko
bargagni
gigli


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Yeah, I like what I'm reading on Petro. Good length and shot blocker, always good in my book. If Atlanta were to trade down, or Petro were to slip, I would love for us to grab him. Could develop into a defensive presence on the post, and we could get one step closer to monopolizing the NBA market in France with Diaw and Petro.  France is the future.


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## ballstorm (Nov 30, 2003)

TheATLien said:


> Yeah, I like what I'm reading on Petro. Good length and shot blocker, always good in my book. If Atlanta were to trade down, or Petro were to slip, I would love for us to grab him. Could develop into a defensive presence on the post, and we could get one step closer to monopolizing the NBA market in France with Diaw and Petro.  France is the future.


sure  .... And you have not heard yet of the best young french prospects... Ian MAHINMI (6'10 1986) for instance....Watch for him in the forthcoming hoop summit...


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

cpawfan said:


> I'm just starting to look at the 2nd and 3rd tier Euro Bigs in the upcoming draft and was wondering about others opinions on this group.
> 
> Vladimir Veremeenko
> Erazem Lorbek
> ...


Verekmeenko has been a guy I've tried to keep track of because he was predicted to go around Seattle's pick. He seems like he could be very solid. Like someone else said, he has Turkoglu, Radmanavic type of potential. I really am looking forward to see what he does.


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## MagnusPinus (Aug 27, 2003)

Andrea Bargnani lately is becoming a factor..he is hitting almost every shoot he takes... Pay attention that if he continues this way he will declare and will be in the lottery no doubt... He is the closest thing to Dirk(of course talking about potential..because he is not Dirk yet :biggrin: )


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## Genjuro (Jul 17, 2002)

I'm gonna use Matiz's system:

By potential:
Johan Petro / Andrea Bargnani
Angelo Gigli
Vladimir Veremeenko / Erazem Lorbek
Uros Slokar

By current playing:
Erazem Lorbek
Vladimir Veremeenko / Angelo Gigli
Andrea Bargnani
Uros Slokar
Johan Petro

How I would draft them:
Andrea Bargnani
Angelo Gigli / Johan Petro / Vladimir Veremeenko / Erazem Lorbek
Uros Slokar


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## ballstorm (Nov 30, 2003)

I just read some profiles concering Gigli and have not been very impressed . He plays alot in one of the best league though , so his talent is indisputable . Still , he seems to be extremely thin and his potential position in the league is uneasy to determine . He is too frail to play in the paint and his ballhandling is not reported to be very good so I'm not sure that he can play forward ...I would take Lorbek over him .


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## MagnusPinus (Aug 27, 2003)

ballstorm said:


> I just read some profiles concering Gigli and have not been very impressed . He plays alot in one of the best league though , so his talent is indisputable . Still , he seems to be extremely thin and his potential position in the league is uneasy to determine . He is too frail to play in the paint and his ballhandling is not reported to be very good so I'm not sure that he can play forward ...I would take Lorbek over him .


Gigli is a strange player to me.. He came out of no where and now is one of the most exciting players of the league.. it's true that he has no real position and his body is not an Nba body(but that is not a problem...we all know what an Nba training program can do!).. His talent is a bit raw..he is not superfluid..his shoot is not fantastic to watch..the best thing about him is probably the footwork.. He is super super quick in the movements and on defense.. To me is a nice prospect with lot of potential... Late first round-early 2nd... Could turn into an energy player a-la Varejao..

I've seen Erazem Lorbek lots of times this year... Lately he has become a nice player.. great movements in the post..beautiful shoot from any range.. but lacks athletism...his feet are slow..Plus he lacks completely aggressiveness..i see him more like a star in Europe... In the Nba would be a defensive liability...and i don't know if in the Nba he could do what he does here offensively..


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## ballstorm (Nov 30, 2003)

Thanks for sharing your opinion MagnusPinus . I read that Gigli was not a good rebounder so I am not sure that the comparison to Varejao is is valid . The Bresilian plays mainly in the paint and he is one of the best offensive rebounder of the league . (per minute) . Gigli appears to be more of an oversized forward who can venture in the paint once in a while . A sort of Zarko Cabarkapa may be ?


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## Genjuro (Jul 17, 2002)

I agree with MagnusPinus. And keep always in mind that Gigli is a power forward, and no small forward (more power forward than Cabarkapa).

The Varejao comparation could serve to a certain extent, but has some flaws. The most noticeable is that Gigli's basketball IQ is dramatically higher than Varejao's.


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## ballstorm (Nov 30, 2003)

Second point worth noting IMO is that Gigli can't play PF in the League since he is only 205-210 lbs , which is by far insufficient to hold is own againt the NBA big men . Certainly he will be able to add some weigh but not much ( or his quickness would be hurted) . This is an intriguing prospect ... Looks a bit like Giacomo Galanda no ?


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## MagnusPinus (Aug 27, 2003)

If Gigli had Giacomo's shoot from three he would be a top 10 player... unfortunately he has not..but fortunately is a more complete player..I've to admit that Galanda is a fantastic cluch shooter but is a bit limited.. To me the weight problem does not exist..I mean..I take for example Krstic that was almost a skeleton and now has put weight..
The comparison with Zarko is not bad at all..but probably Zarko has a better shooting touch.
Gigli on my mind is a 4.. His rebounding is average...5 in 26 minutes..not that bad but keep in mind that Varejao in Europe was not known to be a monster on the boards... It's strange how players change,or seem different in different contest...

For example Charlie Smith... in San Antonio was considered a good defender but an horrible offensive player...now with the Scavolini is the best(or one of the best) scorer in the Euroleague..and is an incredible defensive liability..
Anyway now I'm more impressed with Bargnani..If u saw the last 5-6 games he made...My god.. in few minutes he had monster impact..a superb shooter from 3..but also from midrange...and a wonderful penetrator..at 7-0( he has grown up...he is taller than Marconato).. He is also starting to take rebounds!!!! :biggrin: Offensively an Nba player TOMORROW...on defense..well.. :biggrin: he has a long way to go..but I'm very optimistic he could shift for himself..


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## Genjuro (Jul 17, 2002)

I agree again with MagnusPinus. I think Gigli will add enough weight to be able to play power forward in the NBA. Of course he never will be a physical monster, and he will need some time, but there's no way he plays as a small forward.

I really like this guy. And even if I have put him in the same boat with Petro, Veremeenko and Lorbek, if I had to choose one right now, I would probably go with Gigli.

Bargnani, that's another dimension of a player. The sky is the limit for him.


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## ballstorm (Nov 30, 2003)

This is besides the point , but as long as I know , Charles Smith was not considered as a bad offensive player in San Antonio . His relations with Pop were bad and that is why he got canned .

Regarding Bargagni , he seems to be for sure a great prospect . He has the size , the shoot , I'm really looking forward to seing him . I hope he will get the opportunity to develop patiently his game under the coaching of Ettore Messina .

This is again beyond the point , but what do you think of Paccelis Morlende . Do you know if he will stay in Treviso next year ? Messina appreciates the player or not? He does not play much , so I'm wondering wether evereything is fine for him in Italy or not..

Thanks in advance .


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## MagnusPinus (Aug 27, 2003)

ballstorm said:


> This is again beyond the point , but what do you think of Paccelis Morlende . Do you know if he will stay in Treviso next year ? Messina appreciates the player or not? He does not play much , so I'm wondering wether evereything is fine for him in Italy or not..
> 
> Thanks in advance .


In the beginning of the year Paccelis played more..Since Benetton signed Bluthental the french playmaker is no more an important player of the rotation...because Soragna is now playing the point guard position when Bulleri is out... Morlende is a decent player for me..not more... decent shooter,average playmaker...good athlete.. Can bring some energy from the bench..but lately he is not doing it..because Messina has now different rotations.. Morlende is no longer necessary to benetton in my opinion..Should change team this summer.. and keep improving to become a day an important european player... Anyway I don't see him in the Nba..never..


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## ballstorm (Nov 30, 2003)

Thanks MagnusPinus . I agree with you on Morlende . Good athlete , strong body but not an outstanding playmaker . The main problem with him is that he is injury prone and his development has been seriously slowed down because of the injuries . He should have left Dijon earlier but his first attempt to sign in Italy (in bologna if I'm right) was canceled because -again- of an injury . Too bad he does not play much in Treviso...but it's still a great experience for him to play in a top euroleague team . May be he will get a proposition from another Italian team this summer ...


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## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

cpawfan said:


> I'm just starting to look at the 2nd and 3rd tier Euro Bigs in the upcoming draft and was wondering about others opinions on this group.
> 
> Vladimir Veremeenko
> Erazem Lorbek
> ...


First of all...
The only PF/Cs in this list are probably Lorbek and Slokar (both more PF than C), while Petro is a pure C and Veremeenko, Bargnani and Gigli are SF/PF...

Besides this we can make 2 charts: one based on potential and another based on ready-to-contribute.

Potential

1) Bargnani all the way. I agree with Genjuro when tells "sky's the limit"...

2) Nobody (I'd put Splitter or Vazquez if they were on the list). 

3) Petro. Good defensive center who can develop in something but he's raw right now.

4) Gigli, Veremeenko and Lorbek. Good talents that lack something (strenght for Gigli, footwork for Lorbek, etc).

5) Slokar. Decent late 2nd rounder but not more.

Ready-to-contribuite:

1) Lorbek. Lately has been consistent in offense with good PT in Euroleague.

2) Bargnani. This guy is more ready than you think... but he should find the right situation and team.

3) Gigli and Veremeenko. They're playing well but both have to play in Euroleague for better opponents (especially Veremeenko).

4) Petro. Very young but had a couple of good games in Euroleague. Needs time to develop.

5) Slokar. Lately has been decent playing for Snaidero Udine in Italy's 1st division but he's far from a ready player.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Today on a newspaper Gigli says ...

"La NBA è sempre in cima ai suoi pensieri?
-Beh, diciamo che le offerte continuano ad arrivare e se sarò chiamato tra i primi 15-20 (Phoenix, Houston e Portland al momento sono le squadre più interessate a lui ndr) andrò sicuramente in America. Tra l’altro giovedì sarò intervistato in diretta da una televisione americana. Mi sto preparando i bigliettini perché io con l’inglese sono un disastro..."

"The NBA is always on the top of your thoughts ?
- Well, we say that the offers continue to arrive and if I will be called between the first 15-20, I'll go surely in America. And on Thursday I will be interviewed live from an American television. I am getting ready myself some small cards (_with some english words_) because I am a disaster with the English :biggrin: "


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## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

HoopsHype interview to Bargnani ("I feel no pressure"): http://www.hoopshype.com/interviews/bargnani_sierra.htm.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Interesting article, thanks Toxi

Luckly all our 4-5 young NBA prospects seem to be really intelligent and mind-balanced.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

Can someone give a little scouting report on BArgnani? And not something I can read off of NBADraft.NET?

I have heard that he will declare for the draft this year. Where would he fall in the draft? Top 10? Top 5? I assume at this point he is more of a SF? or PF?

thanks


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Kmurph said:


> Can someone give a little scouting report on BArgnani? And not something I can read off of NBADraft.NET?
> 
> I have heard that he will declare for the draft this year. Where would he fall in the draft? Top 10? Top 5? I assume at this point he is more of a SF? or PF?
> 
> thanks


Hi Kmurph

I think that Andrea will declare for the 2006 draft.
He's surely a top 10 pick.
He's a 7 foot PF, but he's able (and he's working for it) to play the 3 spot too.

Comparison ? kinda Kukoc or Nowitzki, to understand.


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## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

I copy & paste another profile on Bargnani (from ************, not active since last september):

*NBA Comparisons*: 

Optimistic Outlook: Keith Van Horn 
Pessimistic Outlook: Martin Muursepp 

*Strengths*: Great body and very good athleticism for a player of his size. Very skilled offensive player with a lot of solutions to score: shoots well from any distance, hit the three with good accuracy, can beat his defender off the dribble and finish a fast-break after running the court well. Fluid shooting mechanics. Has a quick release. Can play NBA SF position due to his great ball-handling qualities and very good speed. Smart moves in front of the basket: he likes to start out at the 3pt line, beat his defender with his first step and finish with a one-hand slam. Patient offensively, knows when to make the pass and when to take the shot. On defence he's a good shot-blocker under the basket. Hard worker and determined player. 

*Weaknesses*: Needs to gain some more weight to play PF. Not a very good rebounder despite his height so he has to improve his skills. Does not get good postition while rebounding. Is too weak to get good position under the basket. Needs to improve his low post moves. Has to improve his defence on small forwards. He gets beat off the dribble easily by quicker players. Needs to play focused all the time. 


A good profile, except the comparison...

In my opinion, although he has a very good ball-handling (like Kukoc) he doesn't have excellent passing abilities and creativity like the croatian... While the Nowitkzi comparison is suitable. 

Indeed he could become a good mix between Gasol (body, athleticism) and Nowitzki (shoot, ball-handling for his size). We'll see!


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## Sigma (Apr 26, 2003)

Toxicity said:


> A good profile, except the comparison...


yeah, from the little i have seen Bargnani. Muursepp is good defender, good post moves and is stronger than he looks, Bargnani is more SF than a PF.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Today quite good game by Andrea Bargnani vs. Rome

In 17 minutes 12 points, 7 rebounds, 2 blocks, 4 steals and 2 assist(euro index rating 24)


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

This evening stats of Angelo Gigli .vs Air Avellino

32 minutes
15 points 
6-8 fg (3-4 from 3)
6 rebounds
1 block
3 assist
1 steal
o turnovers


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

if one reads between the lines, and thats about all you can do with some of these guys, bargnani is probably going to be in this draft and he is probably going in the top 5. he sounds like about as close to dirk nowitzki as you're going to get.


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## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

rainman said:


> if one reads between the lines, and thats about all you can do with some of these guys, bargnani is probably going to be in this draft and he is probably going in the top 5. he sounds like about as close to dirk nowitzki as you're going to get.


Here's what Chad Ford thinks about Bargnani's draft situation:

"Internationally, it looks as though Italian big man Andrea Bargnani is going to be in the draft. But he'll have an unusual draft strategy. After watching fellow Benetton big man Nikoloz Tskitishvili fail, his agents want to make sure Bargnani goes to a team that really will develop him and agree to keep him in Europe at least one more season. 

To do that, expect Bargnani to go through only three or four private workouts with teams his agents believe are international-friendly. Teams such as the Phoenix Suns, Memphis Grizzlies and San Antonio Spurs make a lot of sense. All three will be picking in the mid-to-late first round, meaning Bargnani might be limiting where he goes in the draft. However, it appears he already has learned that being drafted by the right team is more important than being drafted at a certain number."

If what Chad Ford wrote is true, are you agree with italian 7-footer? 

He could be drafted easily in the first 5 picks and earn much more money... 

Gasol was a 3rd pick and played a lot of minutes his first season in the league: i think Bargnani could do the same if drafted very high...


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## Genjuro (Jul 17, 2002)

Toxicity said:


> Gasol was a 3rd pick and played a lot of minutes his first season in the league: i think Bargnani could do the same if drafted very high...


I'm not so sure. For starters, Bargnani still isn't nowhere near where Gasol was at the end of the 2000/01 season. He has the potential, though.

Anyway, I doubt Bargnani wants to be picked in the second half of the first round to spend one year in Europe if he can go top-5. He could always not declare for this draft and wait until next year. His stock would likely be even better, but surely no worse than a first round pick.


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## ballstorm (Nov 30, 2003)

I agree with Genjuro . To begin with , Bargagni has the heck of a talent but still needs to work a lot in order to become a dominant player in Italy first . Even if the franchise he is drafted by appears to be "European friendly" , he won't play as long as he won't be able to contribute . 

So My opinion is that he should patiently wait at least one more year and gain confidence , developp his skills , put on weight . Next year or even in 2 years from now , he will be drafted probably higher than he would be if he declared for the next draft .

As a matter of fact , the stock of European players have probably been hurted by some old picks than turned out to be bad ( Tskitishvili , Milicic?) and in the mean time , young European players have realized that it was not worth being selected if it meant staying all the year long on a bench . 

For instance , Bellinelli declared :

Hoopshype interview



> Any option that you declare for the NBA draft this season?
> 
> MB: No. And, honestly, I haven't thought about it. Not because I don't have an answer, but because I'm focused on Fortitudo and this season. I just think about being important here and improving in this club.
> 
> ...


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Thursday 28th Angelo Gigli will be interviewed on NBA TV during "Basketball International".


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Bologna .vs Treviso

Stefano Mancinelli 
21 minutes
17 points
5-6 from 2 (2 dunks)
2-2 from 3
3 rebounds
1 block
1 steal
3 assist

Marco Belinelli
15 minutes
4 points
1-3 from 3
2 rebounds
5 steals
3 assist

Andrea Bargnani
28 minutes
12 points
4-9 from 2 (3 dunks)
1-2 from 3
2 rebounds
3 steals

*Mancinelli*

























He'll be the 2nd round steal at the next Draft ...


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## MagnusPinus (Aug 27, 2003)

I don't exclude a 1st round for Mancinelli... Guys like Planinic have been chosen in that range...so could Mancio.. In his last game he showed a good shoot off the dribble..If he has also that move..well..he is a complete player..


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## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

MagnusPinus said:


> I don't exclude a 1st round for Mancinelli... Guys like Planinic have been chosen in that range...so could Mancio.. In his last game he showed a good shoot off the dribble..If he has also that move..well..he is a complete player..


I agree with MagnusPinus... Mancio could be picked as late 1st rounder like Monya last year and remain in Bologna for at least another one year to develop fully his skills.

Gigli lately is struggling a lot... He said he's tired but with Reggio Emilia he played about 30 games while in NBA there are 82 games!!!


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

As time goes on and on, I want to see Bargnani drafted by the Raptors more and more. I was skeptical at first when people are saying we should draft him at #7, because I didn't think he could play SF. But he is pretty quick and agile for his size (from the little ive seen from him), as is Bosh, so not many teams would give them troubles except teams with really athletic SF's. And with Bosh getting stronger, we could always move him the the C spot for 15 minutes a game, and let Andre play the PF spot. 

So pretty much, if Green isn't there at 7, Bargnani better be ours! Would be great to have an italian in the nba as well, especially in a multicultural city like Toronto! Represent!


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## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

vigilante said:


> Would be great to have an italian in the nba as well, especially in a multicultural city like Toronto! Represent!


If Bargnani enters the draft, Italy will have 3 players picked this year (Gigli and Mancinelli the others) and all of them could be 1st round pick (more realistic: two 1st rounders and one 2nd rounder)! :clap: 

Not bad for a country with no-nbaers now... :biggrin: 

Anyway Bargnani could enter 2006 and not this year draft... we'll see.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

vigilante said:


> As time goes on and on, I want to see Bargnani drafted by the Raptors more and more. I was skeptical at first when people are saying we should draft him at #7, because I didn't think he could play SF. But he is pretty quick and agile for his size (from the little ive seen from him), as is Bosh, so not many teams would give them troubles except teams with really athletic SF's. And with Bosh getting stronger, we could always move him the the C spot for 15 minutes a game, and let Andre play the PF spot.
> 
> So pretty much, if Green isn't there at 7, Bargnani better be ours! Would be great to have an italian in the nba as well, especially in a multicultural city like Toronto! Represent!


I'd be worried about the Bucks grabbing him but hopefully they'll go for more of a true big man.


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## Drazen Petrovic (Apr 30, 2005)

Hi guys, I`m new on the forum...

I`m just somewhat suprised, even stunned that noone has yet mentioned one talent promising to overshadow all those previously described on this thread....NEMANJA ALEKSANDROV, namely. 6-11 (power) forward who despite his height can easily outrun, oumaneuver and outscore any of his contemporaries, older ones included. And, unlike Darko Milicic whose crave for money and overnight fame :brokenhea has glued him indefinetely to the bench in Pistons, this kid is smart enough to wait 2-3 years before embarking on something big in the NBA. :biggrin: :banana:


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Today performances of our 3 "wonder-boyz" 

Mancinelli
26 minutes
11 points
4-5 from 2 (1 dunk)
1-1 from 3
6 rebounds
4 turnovers
1 steal
3 assist

Gigli
30 minutes
16 points
6-8 from 2 (2 dunks)
1-2 from 3
5 rebounds
5 turnovers
3 steals
1 assist

Bargnani (coming from a flu)
15 minutes
7 points
1-1 from 2 (1 dunk)
1-2 from 3
4 rebounds
1 block
2 turnovers
3 steals
2 assist


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## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

Drazen Petrovic said:


> Hi guys, I`m new on the forum...
> 
> I`m just somewhat suprised, even stunned that noone has yet mentioned one talent promising to overshadow all those previously described on this thread....NEMANJA ALEKSANDROV, namely. 6-11 (power) forward who despite his height can easily outrun, oumaneuver and outscore any of his contemporaries, older ones included. And, unlike Darko Milicic whose crave for money and overnight fame :brokenhea has glued him indefinetely to the bench in Pistons, this kid is smart enough to wait 2-3 years before embarking on something big in the NBA. :biggrin: :banana:


First of all, this thread is regarding Euro PF/Cs while Aleksandrov (like Bargnani and Gigli of course) is more a PF/SF...

Beside this, i consider him a great talent but i prefer Andrea Bargnani as the "new Nowitzki"... 

plus Aleksandrov is so young and has time to become a great player (not only a prospect like now)...


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Good article of Simone Sandri on NBA.com

Great Time for Italian Basketball

It is certainly a great time for Italian basketball!
The summer brought an incredible run at the Olympics which ended with a silver medal. Just prior to the Olympic Games Italy knocked off the United States in convincing fashion; defeating the perennial powerhouse by 17 points. Now Italy is ready to take the next step; sending players to the NBA via the draft. Finally the scouts are sitting at games in Italy not only to take a look at the foreign talent, but also to keep an eye on some hot Italian prospects.

Italian basketball has improved so much that Italy could fill a lineup with young NBA hopefuls. The frontline of this hypothetical team (hypothetical to a point since it will most likely be the Italian National team for the next decade) is extremely intriguing. Angelo Gigli would be the leader ofthis pack.

The 6-11, 21-year-old from Rome who stars for Bipop Reggio
Emilia has made extraordinary improvement during the past season. He can do it all: battle under the boards, take his game to the perimeter and hurt opponents with a very soft shot. He's also a hard worker who is constantly improving his range. I am convinced that he will be a late first round pick this June.

Andrea Bargnani is younger (20-years-old), and has immense potential. He is probably the most scouted Italian prospect ever. He will likely wait until next year to declare for the draft, but by then he certainly will be a top-10 pick. He plays well in the post and is also comfortable on the perimeter. He's also getting great experience in the Benetton system.

Another forward who is on many NBA teams' draft boards this year is Climamio Bologna's Stefano Mancinelli. He's probably a middle of the second round pick right now, but Mancinelli could surprise people with his skills and maturity. He could be this year's version of Anderson Varejao, a second round pick who's getting a lot of playing time in his rookie year and is impressing the coaching staff in Cleveland.

The backcourt of this "Italian prospect team" consists of a pair of players who are a couple years away from NBA consideration, but the potential is certainly there. The two guard Marco Belinelli is a smooth shooter who has nice size, great fundamentals, good ball-handling and is not afraid of taking the big shots. At the point is Olimpia Milano's Daniele Cavaliero, a guy that I like to call "the Italian Steve Nash." With some experience he could become Italy's top playmaker for years to come.

On the bench of this team is a couple of NBA prospects who are young, but could turn into NBA stars of the future. They are Siena's Luigi Datome and, of course, Danilo Gallinari, who is arguably the best 16-year-old in Europe right now.

And who would coach this team? Ettore Messina of Benetton and Charlie Recalcati, who splits time between Montepaschi Siena and the Italian National Team. Both are basketball gurus who I am convinced could do well leading this team or even an NBA squad.
Posted by Simone Sandri - Apr 12 2005 4:51PM

http://www.nba.com/blog/blog20.html


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> I'm just starting to look at the 2nd and 3rd tier Euro Bigs in the upcoming draft and was wondering about others opinions on this group.
> 
> Vladimir Veremeenko
> Erazem Lorbek
> ...


Without looking at any other responses...

1. Bargnani - very young, has Dirk written all over him.
2. Petro - also young, raw, but is simply a frightening athlete. True 5.
3/4 Veremeenko / Lorbek. Both solid PF types who could contribute.
5. Slokar - has decent size and skills, but a step below Vlad and Erazem, IMO, really a stretch for the NBA.
6. Gigli - a SF. I really haven't seen him for more than a couple of minutes, but he is clearly a tall SF. Plus turn 22 years old in a month, and is still playing in the Italian league. I certainly wouldn't use a first round pick on him.


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## Genjuro (Jul 17, 2002)

The Mad Viking said:


> 6. Gigli - a SF. I really haven't seen him for more than a couple of minutes, but he is clearly a tall SF. Plus turn 22 years old in a month, and is still playing in the Italian league. I certainly wouldn't use a first round pick on him.


Man, you're killing me. Gigli a SF? No way.

And where would you like him to be playing right now?. I mean, Kukoc, Ginobili, Jaric or Nesterovic were playing in Italy at the age of 22. I don't see any problem at all here.

I love how people jump to conclusions having watched a guy just for two minutes.


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## Matiz (Jun 5, 2003)

MagnusPinus said:


> I don't exclude a 1st round for Mancinelli... Guys like Planinic have been chosen in that range...so could Mancio.. In his last game he showed a good shoot off the dribble..If he has also that move..well..he is a complete player..


man, you can't compare Planinic and Mancinelli??!?
Planinic was a starter in euroleague at the age of 18, he choosed the wrong time for entering NBA (right after an injury)... but anyway, these two players aren't comparable from any standpoint, and especially not regarding the talent :boohoo:


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## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

The Mad Viking said:


> Without looking at any other responses...
> 
> 1. Bargnani - very young, has Dirk written all over him.
> 2. Petro - also young, raw, but is simply a frightening athlete. True 5.
> ...


If you really had seen Veremeenko and Gigli for at least 2-3 games you'd say russian guy is more SF than italian one! 
However, if you'd be right, a tall SF isn't always bad anyway! 

But i agree with Genjuro: Angelo Gigli is a mobile PF that can play for some minutes at the 3 spot but he remains clearly a PF even without too muscles and strenght...

He's older but more mature than some younger prospects... Fran Vazquez has the same age but he's projected in lottery pick! Plus Italian league is the best (together with Spanish one) out of NBA. Ginobili and Jaric played here untill the age of 24/25 so what's the problem?

I think Gigli will be picked at the end of the 1st round...


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## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

Matiz said:


> man, you can't compare Planinic and Mancinelli??!?
> Planinic was a starter in euroleague at the age of 18, he choosed the wrong time for entering NBA (right after an injury)... but anyway, these two players aren't comparable from any standpoint, and especially not regarding the talent :boohoo:


Yes, we can't compare them in terms of offensive talent... but Planicic was starter at the age of 18 because of the Cibona lack of money while Fortitudo Bologna is a powerhouse! 

Anyway Mancinelli is 2-3 steps ahead him athletically and plays in another role so we can't compare them 1on1.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Times have changed. The best players are more likely to be recruited for a Euroleague team now.

I'm not talking about where they play today. This is an NBA draft Forum, not a Euroleague Forum.

That said, I am very appreciative of posters like Genjuro who have seen these guys ten to 100x more than us, and share their insights with us. 

My points on Gigli are- 

1. He is like 60th in scoring in the Italian League. Okay, but not great.
2. He couldn't box out a lamp post. (He does seem to have nice instincts on the offensive boards.)
3. *IN THE NBA*, he will simply have to play SF. He does not have the build or strength to be a PF. While his skillset is more PF, he does, IMO, have the athleticism to play SF. I think his handles are better than people might think, he just doesn't get that role to play. 

Vlad has some muscle on him and is an aggressive rebounder. I don't see great handles on the kid, but I see a guy who can block shots inside. Maybe he can shoot the trey better than Gigli, but Veeremenko projects to a PF in the NBA.


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## Genjuro (Jul 17, 2002)

The Mad Viking said:


> Times have changed. The best players are more likely to be recruited for a Euroleague team now.
> 
> I'm not talking about where they play today. This is an NBA draft Forum, not a Euroleague Forum.
> 
> ...


Many Euroleague teams have attempted to recruit Gigli during the season. If I'm not mistaken, Tau Vitoria (in the Final Four) offered something like 600,000 euros. Other top Spanish and Italian teams are looking for adding him too. He hasn't been recruited before because he's a late bloomer.

Answering to your points:
1. Despite being already 22 years old, he's not totally mature and has some decent potential. Besides, it's not all about numbers. Take Udrih for example. He was 22 too. He was playing in a non-Euroleague team. He averaged 10.8 points last year in Italy, while Gigli has averaged 10.9 this one. And Gigli is 6-11.
2. You're probably right, but he has work to do with his body.
3. IN THE NBA he will simply have to get bigger to play PF. He will never be really strong, but other guys where really skinny too (Gasol) and they have survived. What he probably needs is another season or two in Europe playing Euroleague.

I don't think Veremeenko is any more agressive than Gigli. If you talk about blocking shots, Gigli leads the Italian league this season.

One thing I do agree with: Veremeenko will play PF too.


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## MagnusPinus (Aug 27, 2003)

Matiz said:


> man, you can't compare Planinic and Mancinelli??!?
> Planinic was a starter in euroleague at the age of 18, he choosed the wrong time for entering NBA (right after an injury)... but anyway, these two players aren't comparable from any standpoint, and especially not regarding the talent :boohoo:


I was not comparing the players...that are different...that is obvious...but I believe Mancio would be a better player right now in terms of impact...I mean..if they picked Plaininic in that position I believe Mancio should also..If I'm a general manager and I need a player I take Mancio over Planinic 4ever.. I've read Mancio could give a varejao type of impact...Totally agree(of course they are different players)..


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Genjuro said:


> Many Euroleague teams have attempted to recruit Gigli during the season. If I'm not mistaken, Tau Vitoria (in the Final Four) offered something like 600,000 euros. Other top Spanish and Italian teams are looking for adding him too. He hasn't been recruited before because he's a late bloomer.
> 
> Answering to your points:
> 1. Despite being already 22 years old, he's not totally mature and has some decent potential. Besides, it's not all about numbers. Take Udrih for example. He was 22 too. He was playing in a non-Euroleague team. He averaged 10.8 points last year in Italy, while Gigli has averaged 10.9 this one. And Gigli is 6-11.
> ...


Good points, Genjuro. And Gasol seems a vaild comparison. I suppose Gigli could be a similar player.

But then there's Skita...


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## Genjuro (Jul 17, 2002)

The Mad Viking said:


> But then there's Skita...


There will be always Skita....

Other players fit better with a Skita comparation. Bargnani, for example. Now, I'm sure the Italian will be a better player, but in many ways he's really similar to Nikoloz (team, skills, stats, size, athleticism, physical profile). It's a bit of scary.

Anyway, perhaps the most accurate could be Andriuskevicius, who I'm afraid has a huge risk of becoming a bust, particularly if he jumps right away to the NBA.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

I wouldn't touch Martynas with a 7'-3" pole... or a lottery pick, for that matter.

Guys his size typically have so many injury problems... he is a looooooooong way from being NBA ready. Look how long it took Ilgauskas to become a solid contributor - then look at Aleks Radejovic. 

He could be another Z - and maybe even a little better. But he could have chronic foot problems and never play in the NBA.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Angelo Gigli news: 
- around may 20-22 he'll be in America doing tests for some franchises
- between june 3-9 he'll be in Chicago for the pre-draft


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## cheezdoodle (May 25, 2003)

italianBBlover said:


> Angelo Gigli news:
> - around may 20-22 he'll be in America doing tests for some franchises
> - between june 3-9 he'll be in Chicago for the pre-draft


1. Have they said who his agent is yet? I know there were a lot of guys fighting to get him...I just never heard who won. I'd love to go check him out. 

2. SWEET! We'll be there.


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## Genjuro (Jul 17, 2002)

cheezdoodle said:


> 1. Have they said who his agent is yet? I know there were a lot of guys fighting to get him...I just never heard who won. I'd love to go check him out.


His Italian agent is Gianluca Duri. I don't know if he has another in USA.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Genjuro said:


> His Italian agent is Gianluca Duri. I don't know if he has another in USA.


If I'm right, in the U.S. Angelo is associated with a quite famous agency (but at the moment I don't remember the name).


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## cheezdoodle (May 25, 2003)

Interperformances? (Herb Rudoy)

SFX? (David Bauman)

Pinnacle Hoops? (Marc Cornstein)

Entersport? (Marc Fleisher)


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

cheezdoodle said:


> Interperformances? (Herb Rudoy)
> 
> SFX? (David Bauman)
> 
> ...


It seems to me one of the first 2 (maybe SFX).


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## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

italianBBlover said:


> It seems to me one of the first 2 (maybe SFX).


I know for sure SFX represents Stefano Mancinelli but i'm not sure it represents Gigli too...

May 14th should be the deadline for entering the 2005 draft: what will Bargnani do??


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Treviso vs. Naples 
Game 1 of quarter of final
Italian A1 league Play Off

Andrea Bargnani
19 minutes
13 points
4-7 from 2 (1 dunk)
1-2 from 3
6 rebounds
4 steals
1 block 

:clap:


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## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

italianBBlover said:


> Treviso vs. Naples
> Game 1 of quarter of final
> Italian A1 league Play Off
> 
> ...


Plus 0 turnovers! :clap:


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## MagnusPinus (Aug 27, 2003)

Toxicity said:


> Plus 0 turnovers! :clap:


And more important he played great D... He moved his feet like never before..If he continues this way in the playoff he is gonna declare and go in the first 10 of the draft


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## Ryoga (Aug 31, 2002)

The Mad Viking said:


> Look how long it took Ilgauskas to become a solid contributor


how long?
Ilgauskas's rookie season:

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/zydrunas_ilgauskas/index.html

YEAR TEAM G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
97-98 CLE 82 81 29.0 .518 .250 .762 3.40 5.40 8.80 .9 .63 1.65 1.78 3.50 13.9

 Selected to the 1997-98 Schick All-Rookie First Team
 Ranked 2nd among rookies in 1997-98 in rebounds (8.8 rpg), field-goal percentage (.518) and double-doubles (35), 3rd in blocked shots (1.65 bpg) and 4th in scoring (13.9 ppg)
 Led the Cavaliers in 1997-98 in field-goal percentage and blocked shots, ranked 2nd in reobunds and 3rd in scoring
 Named MVP of the Schick Rookie Game, totaling a game-high 18 points and 7 rebounds, during the 1998 NBA All-Star Weekend in New York
 Recorded a rookie season-high 32 points (12-14 FG, 8-9 FT) and 13 rebounds against the Detroit Pistons on 1/31/98
 Posted 16 points and 16 rebounds, in his NBA debut, against the Houston Rockets on 10/31/97
he injured his foot again the year after, but he was a player since day one.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Is Bargnani in the draft or what? I keep hearing he pulled out, or that he never even declared, but I don't know if thats right.


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## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

vigilante said:


> Is Bargnani in the draft or what? I keep hearing he pulled out, or that he never even declared, but I don't know if thats right.


It's not clear yet but it seems (rumors) he'll enter 2006 draft to be selected in Top 5.

And tonight he scored another 13 points (like in 1st game) on 5/7 from the field (with 3 rebounds and 1 block in 22') in 2nd game of quarter of final... Good game, Andrea! :clap:


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Another very good performance by Andrea Bargnani 

Game 3 Treviso .vs Naples

Bargnani
20 minutes
10 points
4-6 from 2 (1 dunk)
0-1 from 3
2-2 free th.
5 rebounds
1 block
3 steals
0 turnovers
1 assist


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## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

italianBBlover said:


> Another very good performance by Andrea Bargnani
> 
> Game 3 Treviso .vs Naples
> 
> ...


Bargnani is showing great maturity for a 19 year old in these 3 playoff games... if he doesn't enter 2005 draft and wait till 2006 i'll be a little disappointed...


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Ryoga said:


> how long?
> Ilgauskas's rookie season:
> 
> http://www.nba.com/playerfile/zydrunas_ilgauskas/index.html
> ...


My bad. :clown: 

I did not recall such a strong rookie campaign prior to all the injuries.
And he was 22 at the time. Pretty impressive.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Stefano Mancinelli during game 3 of Bologna .vs Roseto

23 minutes
11 points
3-3 from 2 (1 dunk)
1-1 from 3
2-4 f.t.
3 rebounds
2 blocks
4 steals
1 turnover
1 assist


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

I don't even know if Bargnani has declared for the draft.. I thought he had declared a while ago, but neither nbadraft.net or draftcity have them on there mock. Do international players have more time to declare or something?


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## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

vigilante said:


> I don't even know if Bargnani has declared for the draft.. I thought he had declared a while ago, but neither nbadraft.net or draftcity have them on there mock. Do international players have more time to declare or something?


In the official NBA list his name isn't present so he'll wait till 2006 draft. I hope next year will be "his" year... 

Maurice Evans (Sacramento Kings; last year he played in Benetton Treviso and practised with Bargnani) about Andrea Bargnani: "He's extremely athletic, he can shoot the heck out of the ball, he reminds me of a young Dirk. He has that type of potential. If he gains weight and continues to progress, that's the level he'll be on one day. He's a 7 foot guard." :clap:


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## Mr.McGrady (May 21, 2005)

IMO, Petro is the only one of those prospects that will make an impact at some point in his career. I seem him turning out to be like Rasheed Wallace if he can polish his defensive skills.


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## MagnusPinus (Aug 27, 2003)

Mr.McGrady said:


> IMO, Petro is the only one of those prospects that will make an impact at some point in his career. I seem him turning out to be like Rasheed Wallace if he can polish his defensive skills.



C-mon...Petro's talent is no where near Sheed's... especially on offense..Petro can turn into a good defensive player, but offensively now he sucks..Sheed is a prince.


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## Mr.McGrady (May 21, 2005)

MagnusPinus said:


> C-mon...Petro's talent is no where near Sheed's... especially on offense..Petro can turn into a good defensive player, but offensively now he sucks..Sheed is a prince.


Well if Petro is picked by an offensive-minded franchise, he could turn out to be Sheed.


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## Genjuro (Jul 17, 2002)

Mr.McGrady said:


> Well if Petro is picked by an offensive-minded franchise, he could turn out to be Sheed.


There's no way that Petro manages to become a Rasheed type of player. He might become a good scorer, but it would be on a different way, using more his physical gifts. He will never be as skilled as Wallace.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Genjuro said:


> There's no way that Petro manages to become a Rasheed type of player. He might become a good scorer, but it would be on a different way, using more his physical gifts. He will never be as skilled as Wallace.


Yea, then Petro is more a pure C, while Rasheed is a PF (and a PF with outside shot)


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

On thursday, Angelo Gigli will fly to the U.S. for a month of pre-draft try-outs.

The first one in Seattle for the Sonics.

Go Angelo !


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Angelo Gigli's try-out

Seattle
Portland
Golden State
Utah
Clippers

Plus other 8 teams

He wants be around the 20th-30th spot (where are franchises like Seattle, Detroit, Utah, San Antonio, Denver, Miami and Phoenix)

The guy is very determining to be in the NBA the next year ...


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## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

Bargnani is continuing his good moment after put 8 points on 3/5 FGs, 5 rebounds (4 OR) in just 18' against Armani Milano in 1st game of Italian Semi Final...

Beyond the stats, he's been a solid defensive presence inside for Benetton Treviso (against Milano's big men, Blair and Singleton) and helped his team to take a great lead in the 3th quarter...

By now he could be definitely considered an important player from the bench for the rest of Italian Playoff and this is a great new considering he suffered a lot of little injuries this year. Go Andrea!


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Stefano Mancinelli during Bologna-Rome

21 minutes
11 points
4-4 from 2 (2 dunks)
1-2 from 3
2 rebounds
3 blocks
3 assist
:clap:


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Stefano Mancinelli's videoclip 

http://www.webalice.it/matthew80/manciodunks.mpg

The quality isn't high, but anyway ... enjoyble


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Jeez ... Andrea Bargnani .vs Armani Milan

*16 minutes*
14 points
5-5 from 2 (2 dunks)
1-3 from 3
4 rebounds
1 block
1 assist
2 steals
0 turnovers

"The wizard" strikes again 

:twave: :twave:


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## Scinos (Jun 10, 2003)

italianBBlover said:


> On thursday, Angelo Gigli will fly to the U.S. for a month of pre-draft try-outs.
> 
> The first one in Seattle for the Sonics.
> 
> Go Angelo !


According to Chad Ford (take it for what it's worth), the Sonics are high on Gigli and are giving him serious consideration with the #25 pick. 

I like what I read in the scouting reports on him, Gigli could provide some much needed athleticism and shot blocking in the frontcourt. Although, I think he needs to bulk up from 205lbs to play PF in the NBA. He would most likely be left with Bipop for another season anyway, so he would have some time to improve.


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## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

italianBBlover said:


> Jeez ... Andrea Bargnani .vs Armani Milan
> 
> *16 minutes*
> 14 points
> ...


What a game for Andrea in just 16'!!! :clap: 

His entry has changed the game both in offense (9 consecutive points in 2nd quarter!) and defense (has shown a great and improved footwork against smaller opponents)... and what about the reverse dunk (plus foul received) he made in 3rd quarter? Amazing... 

He's already the best 6th man in all the Playoffs... the next step will be starting for Benetton (i hope soon)!


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## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

There's an Angelo Gigli interview by Hoopshype at http://www.hoopshype.com/interviews/gigli_sierra.htm.

Look at the final question: "*Which NBA player would you compare yourself to? Some people say Andrei Kirilenko. * 

AG: Yes, Andrei Kirilenko. I think that's good. And Dirk Nowitzki. That's the most complete player I've ever seen. But I like Kirilenko too, because he does a lot of things although he's not as powerful as Nowitzki."

He isn't neither Kirilenko neither Nowitzki... he's crazy?? :biggrin:


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## ItalianStallion (Jun 8, 2005)

does anybody know how gigli did in his workouts? i heard he was really good in detroit and kinda sucked in phoenix but i can't find any more details. can anybody help me?


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