# Pistons off-season



## DetBNyce

Obviously this isn't the best time to start this as we're coming off a game 7 loss, but I see some talk of next year already...

What moves do we ned to make?

Will Larry be back?

More time for Darko next year?

Who won't be returning?

I know e have a MLE for next season, which we used on Dice this past off-season, so if we can get another bench player to go along with him I think we'll be in fine shape for next year.


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## Lope31

CJ said:


> Obviously this isn't the best time to start this as we're coming off a game 7 loss, but I see some talk of next year already...
> 
> What moves do we ned to make?
> 
> Will Larry be back?
> 
> More time for Darko next year?
> 
> Who won't be returning?


The off-season is a very exciting time of year. I want to fire up NBA Live and start my franchise...the only thing is I would have to make the rookies...

We need to draft Hodge or an absolute stud on defence, preferably a guard. Somebody that can be the Mike James to Lindsey Hunter.

My money is on Larry not coming back, but I wouldn't hate it if he did, contray to what I used to believe.

Definitley more time for Darko next year, this summer had better be a big one.


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## pcboy213

Lope31 said:


> The off-season is a very exciting time of year. I want to fire up NBA Live and start my franchise...the only thing is I would have to make the rookies...
> 
> We need to draft Hodge or an absolute stud on defence, preferably a guard. Somebody that can be the Mike James to Lindsey Hunter.
> 
> My money is on Larry not coming back, but I wouldn't hate it if he did, contray to what I used to believe.
> 
> Definitley more time for Darko next year, this summer had better be a big one.


*edited*


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## kamego

I think Hunter is going to retire and be replaced by Paulding.

I would expect Delfino to either be in the NBDL or traded. Just a gut feeling on how badly his knee situation went all year.

I think it's important to get Darko playing all summer and get him ready to be used next year.

We need to make sure we draft a player to replace Delfino, in case he can't play again. We got hurt not having another scoring option off the bench many times this year.

I think LB is done coaching us but I am not against bringing him back if he wants it.

I don't see any major hole we need to use the MLE on yet, we just need 2 good bench players and we will be fine.


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## kamego

pcboy213 said:


> *edited*


Wow this guy needs to be stoped.


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## DetBNyce

I for one hope LB comes back. I don't buy into all this talk of the players being able to coach themselves. All we have to do is look back at our "experience" of having Gar Heard coach us.

I really think we need a guy who can create mismatches off the bench ala Corliss, or at least we need a banger who willing to do some work in the paint. I'd love to get Hodge or Gomes in the draft 9preferably a player who has some collegiate experience).

I'm willing to give Delfino another shot to see if watching the playoff run can light a fire under him and show him what teamwork can do. He's a good player, he just needs to get his head straightened out.


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## PacersguyUSA

I really hope Brown doesn't return.


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## kamego

PacersguyUSA said:


> I really hope Brown doesn't return.


Thats a waste of a post.


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## kamego

We need a shooter off the bench. (Someone like a Jon Barry) I wouldn't draft another banger because we don't need to clog up minutes that Darko should get. Unless we want to draft a project banger and send him to the NBDL. I wouldn't mind seeing us take advantage of that one


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## Lope31

Salim Stoudamire would likely be available for us with our first rounder. It might be a bit of a stretch but the guy is an amazing shooter. Could be just what we need.


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## ian

I don't think Brown will return. As good as he is at Xs and Os, motivating players, teaching them, his health is poor. He also stinks at substitutions and is a distraction 

Delfino will be back
Darko will get at least 10 minutes a game, and I think he'll handle it fine

Need a 3 point shooter, maybe Salim Stoudamire with a 2nd rounder. All we'd need from him is spot shooting. Julius Hodge would be a great fit but I don't think he'll be there. Ryan Gomes? I wouldn't be against Stoudamire in the 1st if that's what it took, at all.

I don't know who would coach. I'm not very high on Flip Saunders and Nate McMillian's style doesn't fit this team at all. Bill Laimbeer could actually be the best fit :clown: A young talented assistant would be another candidate


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## DetBNyce

*Starters* *Current age besides players*

B. Wallace 30
R. Wallace 30
T. Prince 25
R. Hamilton 27
C. Billups 28

------------*Bench*

Arroyo 25
McDyess 30
Milicic 20
Dupree 24
Delfino 
*Draft pick

------------------*Maybe's*

Campbell
Hunter
Ham
Paulding


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## DetBNyce

ian said:


> and is a distraction


That's really my only worry. It's does get very annoying to hear where he's going from week to week, but hopefully a return would finally squash those rumors.


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## DetBNyce

kamego said:


> I wouldn't draft another banger because we don't need to clog up minutes that Darko should get. Unless we want to draft a project banger and send him to the NBDL. I wouldn't mind seeing us take advantage of that one



Good point. I almost forgot about him... I just really miss what Colriss brought to this team physically and mentally. We do need someone willing to do some work in the paint, whetehr that's Darko or someone else. Hopefully Dice and Sheed.


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## DetBNyce

One thing we do know -- complacency shouldn't be a problem next year.


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## kamego

CJ said:


> *Starters* *Current age besides players*
> 
> B. Wallace 30
> R. Wallace 30
> T. Prince 25
> R. Hamilton 27
> C. Billups 28
> 
> ------------*Bench*
> 
> Arroyo 25
> McDyess 30
> Milicic 20
> Dupree 24
> Delfino
> *Draft pick
> 
> ------------------*Maybe's*
> 
> Campbell
> Hunter
> Ham



Don't forget Ricky Paulding on our list of Maybe's. He has rumored to have said he will be in detroit this year for the summer league. We hold his draft rights just like an overseas player right now.


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## DetBNyce

kamego said:


> Don't forget Ricky Paulding on our list of Maybe's. He has rumored to have said he will be in detroit this year for the summer league. We hold his draft rights just like an overseas player right now.



Done. Any news on him?


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## kamego

Lope31 said:


> Salim Stoudamire would likely be available for us with our first rounder. It might be a bit of a stretch but the guy is an amazing shooter. Could be just what we need.


I wouldn't be upset if we took him in the first round. I think we could also make a move for him if we wanted to trade up to an earlier spot in the 2nd round. He didn't impress me in the NCAAs this year but his stats are flat out what we need. His ability to hit 3s would be a welcome to the team. He has been mentioned to be an headcase but he is trying to shake that, I heard he shaved his head.


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## Lope31

I think I am going to go looking for a list of free agents. What's your cap room like...froggy?


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## kamego

CJ said:


> Done. Any news on him?


He played PG all season overseas and rumor has it the Pistons believe he can become a Hunter like type of player. He has all the skills, hench the reason he would have been a lottery pick after his junior year. He just needs to get his head ready and his game set to play PG. I would expect him to come over for the summer league and at worest replace Horace Jenkins on the reserve list. He might be on our NBDL team also. Either way I don't see a reason why we don't bring him over since we know have spots for him somewhere.


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## Lope31

kamego said:


> He might be on our NBDL team also. Either way I don't see a reason why we don't bring him over since we know have spots for him somewhere.


Whoa, whoa, whoa...we have our OWN NBDL team? Did I miss something? Like a minor league?


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## Lope31

TOP CURRENT NBA FREE AGENTS / Updated April 16, 2005 

POINT GUARDS: Kenny Anderson, Jamison Brewer, Smush Parker, Junior Harrington, Brandon Armstrong, Jay (Jason) Williams, Yuta Tabuse, Troy Bell, Darrick Martin, J.R. Bremer, Kareem Reid, Matt Maloney, Emanual Davis, Randy Livingston, Tito Maddox, Marcus Hattan, Brandin Knight. 

SHOOTING GUARDS: Dion Glover, Ricky Minard, Felipe Lopez, Kirk Penney, Kendall Gill, Derrick Dial, Roger Mason, Joe Forte, Jeff Trapagnier, Desmon Farmer, Mitchell Butler, Maurice Carter, Carl English, Jeryl Sasser, Corey Benjamin, Jimmy Hunter, Isaiah Rider, 

SMALL FORWARDS: Kedrick Brown, Courtney Alexander, Eddie Robinson, Tremaine Fowlkes, Britton Johnson, Awvee Storey, Tang Hamilton, Chris Jefferies, John Wallace, Kaniel Dickens, Walt Williams, Glen Rice, Terence Morris, Donny Marshall, Chris Porter, Darius Rice, Tommy Smith 

POWER FORWARDS: Jerome Moiso, Marcus Haislip, Derrick Coleman, Corie Blount, Lonny Baxter, Donnell Harvey, Jerome Beasley, Keon Clark, Gary Trent, Rick Rickert, Antonio Meeking, Kirk Haston, Matt Freije, Jason Caffey, Sam Clancy, Dennis Rodman, Ousmane Cisse, Lawrence Funderburke, Popeye Jones, Cherokee Parks, Charles Oakley, Reggie Slater 

CENTERS: Jahidi White, Vladimir Stepania, Jelani McCoy, Oliver Miller, Mangke Bateer, Amal McCaskill, Ruben Boumtje Boumtje, James Lang, Chris Marcus, Nate Huffman, Peter Cornell, Roy Tarpley, Leon Smith, Eric Chenowith, Keith Closs, Travis Knight, Olden Polynice, Soumalia Samake

InsideHoops.com 

...now to find the ones that are on teams.


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## Lope31

A quick first glance at 2005 NBA free agency. Later in June, we'll have a complete NBA free agency look, including team needs, exact lists of players in free agency, complete rankings both overall and by position, and more. 

1) Ray Allen (Seattle Sonics) - Wants big money. The Sonics might offer close to it - but no cigar. However, there aren't many good teams out there with lots of cap room.

2) Larry Hughes (Washington Wizards) - Had an incredible season on both the offensive and defensive end and deserves money somewhere in between what Ray Allen and Michael Redd will get.

3) Michael Redd (Milwaukee Bucks) - Player option, so he's expected to enter NBA free agency. Wants big money. But he's not considered the top of star that carries a team to lots of victories, and if he aims for superstar money, he won't get it.

4) Zydrunas Ilgaukas (Cleveland Cavaliers) - Health used to be a problem for Big Z. But not lately. It sounds like Ilgauskas is seeking a reasonable contract, which is rare. Every single team in the league should try to sign him. He could stay, or go. It's anyone's guess.

5) Joe Johnson (Phoenix Suns) - Restricted free agent. He had a ball playing with the Suns and will probably stick around. It's possible that someone will throw more money at him than Phoenix wants to spend. But he'd like to stay where he is.

6) Tyson Chandler (Chicago Bulls) - Restricted free agent who the Bulls plan on keeping, unless another team offers silly money. Even though it feels like Chandler's been in the league for a long time and some may have given up on his upside, he still has true star potential.

7) Eddy Curry (Chicago Bulls) - Restricted free agent who the Bulls only want to keep if it appears his heart/health problems aren't going to really be a problem. If they are, he'll get paid second or third string backup money. But if Curry's health will be fine, every team in the league would want him. Though, rumor has it he wants insane money. Join the club. Anyway, we weren't quite sure where to rank him because the health stuff is still in the air.

8) Samuel Dalembert (Philadelphia 76ers) - Restricted free agent who didn't get his fair due under coach Jim O'Brien, but will probably have a real chance to shine now that Maurice Cheeks is in charge. Expect the Sixers to keep him and play him tons of minutes, as he's wanted for a while now. But of course, the constant disclaimer applies: If another team offers absurd money, he's probably gone.

9) Shareef Abdur-Rahim (Portland Trail Blazers) - He's been in the league for years, yet still no one is sure what his ideal forward position is. He's not the banger you want as a power forward, and he isn't the versatile do-it-all type talent you want at the three-spot. Still, with that aside, he's definitely talented. It sounds like he's definitely gone from Portland.

10) Stromile Swift (Memphis Grizzlies) - Everyone knows Stro can run and jump, but he's rarely gotten big minutes for more than a few games and really hasn't the chance to show the league what his true value is. Swift wants out of Memphis and a chance to be a permanent starter somewhere else.

InsideHoops.com


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## Lope31

Detroit Pistons Date # of total 
Player signed years salary misc FA
Elden Campbell ........ 3/4/05 1 minimum '05
Darvin Ham ............ 8/9/04 1 minimum '05
Horace Jenkins ........ 8/4/04 1 minimum '05
Ronald Dupree ......... 7/21/04 2 minimum '06
Lindsey Hunter ........ 8/13/04 2 $3.36 million '06
Tayshaun Prince ....... 9/2/02 4 $4,541,153 rc t-opt '06
Ben Wallace ........... 8/3/00 6 $30 million '06
Chauncey Billups ...... 7/17/02 6 $33.7 million p-opt '07
Antonio McDyess ....... 7/14/04 4 $22.5 million p-opt '07
Darko Milicic ......... 9/12/03 4 $16,815,062 rc t-opt '07
Carlos Arroyo ......... 7/14/04 4 $16 million '08
Carlos Delfino ........ 7/14/04 4 $4,776,941 rc t-opt '08
Richard Hamilton ...... 8/12/03 7 $62 million p-opt '08 
Rasheed Wallace ....... 7/22/04 5 $60 million '09

InsideHoops.com


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## kamego

Lope31 said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa...we have our OWN NBDL team? Did I miss something? Like a minor league?


The new CBA says that every 2 teams will be sharing one NBDL team. So we get roughly 6 roster spots in the NBDL for any player thats in his first or second year in the league or accepts assingment there.


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## Lope31

Could other teams steal our players? I wouldn't think so. Ah well this is great. Who is our team?


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## Sixerfanforlife

Off-seaosn, if I was a piston fan I would dread for this Off-season not to come, Look at yourselves Larry may retire or be a knicks coach or be a Gm, Jim O'brien's not going to come on your door-step due to the fact that you've been to the finals 2 times and I know if anything else if you dont make it a third time the critisium will be higher then it was in Philadelphia. And there aren't any legitmate free agents that would make your players do anything different then it was during the gar heard experiament.


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## kamego

Sixerfanforlife said:


> Off-seaosn, if I was a piston fan I would dread for this Off-season not to come, Look at yourselves Larry may retire or be a knicks coach or be a Gm, Jim O'brien's not going to come on your door-step due to the fact that you've been to the finals 2 times and I know if anything else if you dont make it a third time the critisium will be higher then it was in Philadelphia. And there aren't any legitmate free agents that would make your players do anything different then it was during the gar heard experiament.


I am not dreading this at all. If Larry leaves Gar Heard will not be the replacement nor will O'Brien. I would be looking at Bill Laimbeer for sure  I hope we get something for Larry since he has 3 years left on his deal. I can't complain if that happens.


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## kamego

Lope31 said:


> Could other teams steal our players? I wouldn't think so. Ah well this is great. Who is our team?


As far as I know you can assign players there, so if you have them under some sort of contract they can't be stolen. Nothing has been said about where are minor league team will play or what other team we are sharing with.


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## Sixerfanforlife

kamego said:


> I am not dreading this at all. If Larry leaves Gar Heard will not be the replacement nor will O'Brien. I would be looking at Bill Laimbeer for sure  I hope we get something for Larry since he has 3 years left on his deal. I can't complain if that happens.


Oh Like Laimbeer's going to come into an eastern conference that when completely healthy has so many North carolina tar heel's defense will be practically impossible. I'm going to school (13 years old) with a Spurs championship Hat, Shirt pants to match! SAN ANTONIO BASKETBALL!!!


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## pcboy213

Lope31 said:


> Detroit Pistons Date # of total
> Player signed years salary misc FA
> Elden Campbell ........ 3/4/05 1 minimum '05
> Darvin Ham ............ 8/9/04 1 minimum '05
> Horace Jenkins ........ 8/4/04 1 minimum '05
> Ronald Dupree ......... 7/21/04 2 minimum '06
> Lindsey Hunter ........ 8/13/04 2 $3.36 million '06
> Tayshaun Prince ....... 9/2/02 4 $4,541,153 rc t-opt '06
> Ben Wallace ........... 8/3/00 6 $30 million '06
> Chauncey Billups ...... 7/17/02 6 $33.7 million p-opt '07
> Antonio McDyess ....... 7/14/04 4 $22.5 million p-opt '07
> Darko Milicic ......... 9/12/03 4 $16,815,062 rc t-opt '07
> Carlos Arroyo ......... 7/14/04 4 $16 million '08
> Carlos Delfino ........ 7/14/04 4 $4,776,941 rc t-opt '08
> Richard Hamilton ...... 8/12/03 7 $62 million p-opt '08
> Rasheed Wallace ....... 7/22/04 5 $60 million '09
> 
> InsideHoops.com



Help me, I'm stupid

*As told to Lope31


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## froggyvk

The Pistons are over the cap so we'll have the MLE and LLE next year. They are around $5 million and $1.6 million respectivelly. We have an owner who is willing to spend and wants to see our team improve, so I'd figure we'll use the MLE for sure. We could either sign one guy (such as we did with McDyess) or break it up into multiple parts (any way totaling $5 million or less) and try to have a ton of depth last year. 

The thing with the MLE is, as far as the Pistons go, who do we target? A guy like Donyell Marshall could be great, but he's a SF/PF and I wouldn't want him playing any significant minutes at PF, especially if it means Darko won't play. It'd be nice to sign a guard, but I like both Arroyo and Delfino and don't want to write them off completely. 

It will get much clearer after the draft -- please, please Francisco Garcia -- that is for sure.


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## kamego

pcboy213 said:


> PARKER SU#KS VERY UNDERRATED. Duncan MVP GETS ME MAD AND VERY UPSET.......HORRRRRRRRRRRRRY IS THE MVP OF THE SERIES AND EVERYONE KNOWS THIS EVEN DUNCAN. Duncan sucks big time he is lucky to win three MVP like SHAQ AND JORDAN. pistons........IT WAS A FLUKE.........THEY WRESTLE INSTEAD OF PLAYING BALL...hahah they suck and the LAKERS RULE...........babe.
> 
> PISTONS IT WAS A FLUKE AND WILL NEVER WIN ANOTHER NBA TITLE AGAIN MARK MY WORDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :banana:



I don't think you needed to send me this in a PM. It has nothing to do with the Pistons offseason.


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## kamego

froggyvk said:


> The Pistons are over the cap so we'll have the MLE and LLE next year. They are around $5 million and $1.6 million respectivelly. We have an owner who is willing to spend and wants to see our team improve, so I'd figure we'll use the MLE for sure. We could either sign one guy (such as we did with McDyess) or break it up into multiple parts (any way totaling $5 million or less) and try to have a ton of depth last year.
> 
> The thing with the MLE is, as far as the Pistons go, who do we target? A guy like Donyell Marshall could be great, but he's a SF/PF and I wouldn't want him playing any significant minutes at PF, especially if it means Darko won't play. It'd be nice to sign a guard, but I like both Arroyo and Delfino and don't want to write them off completely.
> 
> It will get much clearer after the draft -- please, please Francisco Garcia -- that is for sure.


I have seen Garcia play many teams while in college and I never came away impressed. He has moments where he does fine but then he has moments where he looks lost and confused. I wouldn't be mad if we took him but I wouldn't be jumping for joy either. Just my thoughts on him.


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## kamego

Sixerfanforlife said:


> Oh Like Laimbeer's going to come into an eastern conference that when completely healthy has so many North carolina tar heel's defense will be practically impossible. I'm going to school (13 years old) with a Spurs championship Hat, Shirt pants to match! SAN ANTONIO BASKETBALL!!!


Whats your hat shirt and pants have to do with our coach? Last time I looked we both had 3 championship banners?


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## Sixerfanforlife

Last I checked those two were 14+ years ago.
OWNED


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## Midnight_Marauder

Sixerfanforlife said:


> Last I checked those two were 14+ years ago.
> OWNED



Dude your 13 years old......nothing you can say will have any merit with any poster here at all......not a single one of us care what you have to say....Why are you doing this to yourself?.....And oh yeah....why are you suddenly a Spurs fan when your S/N is sixerfanforlife?.....Well anyways..go clean up your room before your mom finds out you are on the internet and not cleaning up the "sticky socks" from under your bed


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## kamego

Sixerfanforlife said:


> Last I checked those two were 14+ years ago.
> OWNED


A championship is a championship...Last time I checked the age of a banner never matter...


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## Lope31

Ahem...free agency. What other good players are coming off contracts, I try and find some more.


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## The Enigma

A FA I really think the Pistons should go after is Raja Bell.

He fits the Piston mold plus he has a quality needed off the Piston's bench (he can shoot the 3).

He is 6'5" (28 years of age) and he can defend both the 2 and the 3 positions. He is an above average on the ball defender and he tends to get under the skin of opponents with his physical "budget Bowen" type defensive tactics. 

He is accustomed to coming off the bench and he is productive in short stints. The best thing about him however is that half the MLE just might do it.

He is a type of player that irritates and annoys other players (he is a bit of dirty player), the Pistons could use a player like that (call him a "budget Bowen" if you like). He is also a proven bench producer, which is important. With the Wallace's pushing 31 the Pistons cannot risk the uncertainties of a draft pick, a Delfino, or a gamble Dupree type signing.

Spurt offence and outside shooting is a must off the Pistons bench (adequate defense and toughness would be plus). Raja Bell can provide all of that (IMO).


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## kamego

Bell isn't a bad name to toss around but we can toss around Finley now too.

We have lots of options with our MLE if we want to go that route.


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## Copper

I would take Finley over Bell, even with Finley declining, we can use him in bursts off the bench when we hit our typical scoring drought.He can only help our bench.


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## Lope31

Good suggestion Enigma, I never realized Bell was a free agent this year. Shows how much I pay attention to those other 28 teams (Don't forget I'm including Toronto).

I like Bell, I've seen him play a few times and wouldn't mind a player like that to come here and bring some great intense defence. You can never have enough prospective free agents to look at...

So far our list is Finley and Bell. Not bad for a days worth of work.


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## MLKG

Would

PG: Billups/Hunter/Arroyo
SG: Hamilton/Delfino
SF: Prince/Dupree
PF: Wallace/McDyess
C : Wallace/Milicic

I'm going to assume Lindsey will want to stay, Elden will retire, and we'll part ways with Darvin.

The #1 need for next season is a swingman who can come off the bench and score some points. It's a need I think we should address in both free agency and the draft.

In the draft I want Francisco Garcia. We really need another shooter, and he's a good one. He's the a shooting guard version of Tayshaun Prince. Multi talented, smart player, very very long.

These are the realistic MLE targets I see in free agency that I think could come in and get good minutes:

Kerry Kittles
Bonzi Wells
Bobby Simmons
Latrell Sprewell
Kyle Korver

Not a great list. Age and character issues would scare me away from 3 of them, I don't think Bobby Simmons really fits, and I don't think Kyle Korver is worth the full MLE which he will probably command. Kind of a tough crop for what we are looking for.

What will really be big is the new CBA provision that allows teams to save themself from the luxary tax by cutting a player.

Michael Finley would be a GREAT pick up if he is out and Dallas.

Other names that I wouldn't be surprised to see make a surprise visit to free agency:

Allan Houston
Tim Thomas
Grant Hill
Jalen Rose
Derek Anderson

Now we're starting to get into some names that would be worth taking a look at. I think Allan Houston, Grant Hill, and Jalen Rose would all embrace an opportunity to play in Detroit again, and the winning veteran atmosphere would be a strong drawing point for guys like Finley.

We'll have to wait and see what goes down.


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## bananas

The only SG/SF players worth the MLE in that crop would be Jalen or Grant and they both would be a perfect fit coming off the bench to play 20-25 a night. Though I would take Houston for the minimum.

Quite the solid frontcourt rotation: Ben, Sheed, Dyess, Darko
as well as perimeter: Tay, Rip, Chauncey, CarlosX2, Grant/Jalen, Hunter

where to go from there, well the signing of either Hill or Rose would make Arroyo expendable and to be honest I am not a big fan of his. Then we have to factor in all of the drafted players that Detroit will have for the roster and NBDL. It is possible two out of the four picks make it to the Pistons roster (especially with the new CBA , 14 man rosters) and the other two go to the NBDL.

It is a tad early to contemplate all of the possible paths Dumars can go. I'll have to wait till after the draft and the start of free agency to begin to elaborate.


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## kamego

Jalen would be a good fit because I think he would get his act in gear if he came home. Similar to how Rasheed responded to playing in Detroit.

Grant Hill would be a great pickup if he was willing to come off the bench. My only worry with him is he might not be able to play 50 games a season any more. Unlike Dice, we wouldn't have complete confidence in his ankle ever.

If I remember correctly Joe Dumars has made very hard attempts to sign Tim Thomas in the past. If Joe still sees the same thing in him, I could see some type contract being done.


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## Lope31

I'm a big fan of Jalen Rose. He's been great for Toronto. I love his attitude and he brings great leadership. He realizes that people are going to peg most of the problems on him because he gets paid so much but he's really done a great job handling the Vince Carter trade and all the rumours that involve his name. I've gained nothing but respect for the dude over the last year.


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## DetBNyce

*From the Detroit News:*

_The Pistons plan on making pass / fail assessments on 2004 draft pick Rickey Paulding and 2003 pick Andreas Glyniadakis during the summer league in Las Vegas. Dumars said the team will either keep them after watching them work out or release their rights. 

"It is not fair to them or us to keep them for an extended amount of time," Dumars said. 
_


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## kamego

Andreas Glyniadakis was not a name I was expecting to hear this offseason. I don't think he is ready but that might be the point. Joe Dumars might be thinking NBDL for 2 years. Which I would like to see since he has a very nice shot.


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## DetBNyce

Just watching the news and it was reported that Dumars had a talk with Michael Finley today.

Stay tuned...


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## kamego

I am glad he listend to our board


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## yavoon

kamego said:


> Jalen would be a good fit because I think he would get his act in gear if he came home. Similar to how Rasheed responded to playing in Detroit.
> 
> Grant Hill would be a great pickup if he was willing to come off the bench. My only worry with him is he might not be able to play 50 games a season any more. Unlike Dice, we wouldn't have complete confidence in his ankle ever.
> 
> If I remember correctly Joe Dumars has made very hard attempts to sign Tim Thomas in the past. If Joe still sees the same thing in him, I could see some type contract being done.


I disagree that rasheed has gotten his act together. he has played harder, sort of. had he played anywhere NEAR his talent or w/ any semblance of desire or stability the pistons would have won the finals. he completely collapsed in game 7, is still leading the league in technical fouls and still decides if he really wants to show up, still floats on the perimeter on a team that desperately needs him as a low post threat.

u may think thats rehabilitated, and to some extent he isnt dogging it as bad as in portland, but make no mistake, rasheed has not changed stripes.


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## yavoon

CJ said:


> Just watching the news and it was reported that Dumars had a talk with Michael Finley today.
> 
> Stay tuned...


finley is busted, its sad we couldn't get raja bell. that is a great complimentary player.


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## kamego

yavoon said:


> I disagree that rasheed has gotten his act together. he has played harder, sort of. had he played anywhere NEAR his talent or w/ any semblance of desire or stability the pistons would have won the finals. he completely collapsed in game 7, is still leading the league in technical fouls and still decides if he really wants to show up, still floats on the perimeter on a team that desperately needs him as a low post threat.
> 
> u may think thats rehabilitated, and to some extent he isnt dogging it as bad as in portland, but make no mistake, rasheed has not changed stripes.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Rashed the ONLY one who kept us alive in the 4th quarter of game 7? No one else did anything but him, so don't hate on him.


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## kamego

yavoon said:


> finley is busted, its sad we couldn't get raja bell. that is a great complimentary player.



Finley > Bell


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## yavoon

kamego said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Rashed the ONLY one who kept us alive in the 4th quarter of game 7? No one else did anything but him, so don't hate on him.


rasheed came off the bench eventually and jacked up shots and god amazes has the talent to make shots. look rasheed is probably the most talented PF in the league, ahead of duncan and garnett. but his mental makeup and desire are near the bottom. so ok u be happy that he completely implodes for 3.5 quarters then sinks 2-3 baskets in the fourth in desperation. if thats ur standard for a good performance by someone as talented as rasheed then obviously u r easily satisfied.

like I said, larry can get rasheed to improve over his portland performances, but its not like the guy is the heart and soul of anything and honestly mcdyess did every bit as well with more desire and a better overall chemistry.


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## yavoon

kamego said:


> Finley > Bell


maybe several years ago, they are going in opposite directions. finley can't shoot anymore, has chronic injury issues and isnt a good defender at his age.

bell is a good defender, and can shoot. the only thing finley can still do better is he is a beter scorer, when not injured of course.

finley is a broken down superstar, bell is a solid roleplayer, I'd rather have the latter.


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## DetBNyce

Just keeping tabs on some moves our E.C. rivals have made as well as some other teams.


Cleveland:

Agrees to terms with Larry Hughes

Milwaukee:

Agrees to terms with Bobby Simmons
" " " with Michael Redd

Miami: Agrees to terms with Haslem


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## kamego

yavoon said:


> maybe several years ago, they are going in opposite directions. finley can't shoot anymore, has chronic injury issues and isnt a good defender at his age.
> 
> bell is a good defender, and can shoot. the only thing finley can still do better is he is a beter scorer, when not injured of course.
> 
> finley is a broken down superstar, bell is a solid roleplayer, I'd rather have the latter.


finley is a better score as you say and what are we looking for?


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## The Enigma

yavoon said:


> I disagree that rasheed has gotten his act together. he has played harder, sort of. *had he played anywhere NEAR his talent or w/ any semblance of desire or stability the pistons would have won the finals.*


Baseless speculations and idealist assumptions being used as revisionist fact was the pastime of choice once upon a time. However, minor technological innovations such as _logic_ have recently curtailed the use (credibility) of such claims.

For good times sake (however) I will engage you in some *ifs* of my own.
If Rasheed had been able to play more of the game (particularly during the 3rd quarter Prince PF experiment) without the abundance of touch calls the Pistons would have won game seven.

If Rasheed had not made the most ridiculous late game mental mistake I can recall in game 5 the Pistons would have won in 6.

If Rasheed had not produced numerous clutch offensive and defensive plays down the stretch of game 6 of the finals the Pistons would have lost in 6.

If a meteor had crashed into the Spurs team bus before game 5 severely spraining the ankle of Robert Horry the Pistons would have won in 6.

If the desperate housewife would leave the little Frenchman alone and allow him to concentrate during big games the Spurs would have won in 4.

If Wade took more vitamins and better utilized Yoga and Palates techniques to loosen up his rib muscles the Pistons would have lost to Miami.
...These sure are fun.



> he completely collapsed in game 7


...The only Piston to show up in the deciding 4th quarter of an NBA finals game 7. 

_What an implosion..._

...Purposely went out of his way to attain touch fouls including one phantom (which drastically limited his floor time).

_What a collapse..._

------

I suppose one can come out, toss up and make a few (which only out of the graces of supreme talent is possible) and collapse all in the same breath.



> ...still floats on the perimeter on a team that desperately needs him as a low post threat.


On a team in which he is also one of the top outside shooting options…

Truth be told Rasheed Wallace's threat to make outside shots is just as (if not more) valuable to this particular Pistons team then his (diminishing) post up ability.

For one, it takes one of the opposing teams top rebounders, interior defenders and shot blockers away from the basket. This leaves the lane less congested for cutters and curlers.

It also allows the Pistons to utilize one of Rasheed's strengths (post entry passing and spot up shooting threat) to post Billups or Prince.

------

Fans drastically undervalue what the luxury of having an elite low post individual defender (able of defending all 3 frontcourt positions) who is capable of pulling defenders away from the basket is.

- Can you name the F/C's in the league capable of doing this?
- Can you list the career winning percentages and post-season appearances of those players?



> u may think that’s rehabilitated, and to some extent he isnt dogging it as bad as in portland, but make no mistake, rasheed has not changed stripes.


Rasheed's numbers in Portland were better across the board and he was in better physical condition. What I see now is that the quality of player’s surrounding him has changed (along with the willingness of officials to assess that second technical foul) not that he has changed in any way (matured yes, changed no).


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## ian

wrong thread


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## DetBNyce

Cavaliers add Donyell Marshall, with the possibility of still adding Jaskevicius(sp?). Shaping up to be a good team over there.

New Jersey and SAR finally have agreed to terms.


Detroit

Boston
Chicago
Cleveland
Indiana
Miami
Milwaukee
New Jersey


Orlando?
Philly?
Washington?

It will be some solid teams and a lot of competition in the East next year.


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## froggyvk

I think the East has slowly but surely been getting better and now after these signings I think the two conferences as a whole are fairly equal. You've got Miami, Detroit and Indiana who are the best three teams in the East, but you've also got teams like Cleveland and New Jersey that have the chance to be up there with their offseason moves. And let's not forget teams like Milwaukee, who didn't make the playoffs last year but have had a great offseason so far. Also, we can't count out teams like Philadelphia, Chicago, and Washington -- playoff teams last year that have the potential to get better.

Kidd-Carter-Jefferson-SAR-Krstic...

That is one scary starting five. I said our starting five was the best in the NBA last year but that could give the 04-05 Pistons a run for their money, benches not included. SAR has been a 19 & 9 guy on average in his career, Krstic developed nicely last season, and we all know how good the other three can be. I don't like Jefferson's game, but I can't deny that the results are there for him.


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## froggyvk

To add to my last post about the competition in the East, I'd say the Central is the toughest division in the NBA now. Detroit and Indiana are the top two teams in the East, Chicago has such a good future and made the playoffs last year, and Cleveland and Milwaukee have improved themselves drastically this offseason. We now beat out the Southwest for the toughest division in the league.


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## DetBNyce

Headlines:

1. Sarunas to Cleveland for three years.

2. Antonio Daniels to Washington for 5 years at the MLE

3. SAR considering an offer from Sacramento.


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## kamego

If the Pistons land someone with the MLE I can't see how the Central isn't the hardest division next season.


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks

kamego said:


> Finley > Bell


Yes. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly doesn't know who micheal finley is. If Detroit gets him well all I can say is that you guys will pleasently surprised with what he can do.


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## DetBNyce

Jeff McInnis has signed a teo year $7 million deal with the NewJersey Nets. They're also looking at Wesley Person.


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## Brian.

CJ said:


> Jeff McInnis has signed a teo year $7 million deal with the NewJersey Nets. They're also looking at Wesley Person.


I have read the nets board and some of the general board. Net fans seems to be falling all over themselves with this signing. I don't get it I realize he will come off the bench for them but I think he is garbage.


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## Brian.

One of the best decisions Joe has made as a gm was signing Billups. The pistons were after Mcinnis and Billups thankfully Joe picked Billups. Here is a blast from the past

http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1938&highlight=Jeff+McInnis


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## Midnight_Marauder

What we need to get is somebody who can come off the bench and flat out score.....I wonder what World B. Free is doing these days? Put him in a Pistons uni....ha ha


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## the wall

I heard from a source that there is a trade that is being heavily discussed right now between the Pistons, T-Wolves, and Knicks. At this point there is just talk, but apparently the teams are getting pretty serious. 

Pistons woudl be giving up Sheed and Delfino
I don't know what the Knicks are giving in the trade
And the TWolves would send Garnett to the Pistons.

Apparently Sheed really wants to be in NY and really wants to be with LB. 
Garnett wants to be with Flip and Chauncey in Detroit.
Again, no idea on what NY gives up or receives.

I heard this from an extremely credible source; not saying it's gonna happen, but it's definitely a possibility.


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## DetBNyce

I don't see anything on either team that the T'Wolves would want, and I think to get him here at least Rip would be leaving town. Not shooting down your rumor, but I don't see anything happening. You've been pretty on point in the past though.


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## Brian.

the wall said:


> I heard from a source that there is a trade that is being heavily discussed right now between the Pistons, T-Wolves, and Knicks. At this point there is just talk, but apparently the teams are getting pretty serious.
> 
> Pistons woudl be giving up Sheed and Delfino
> I don't know what the Knicks are giving in the trade
> And the TWolves would send Garnett to the Pistons.
> 
> Apparently Sheed really wants to be in NY and really wants to be with LB.
> Garnett wants to be with Flip and Chauncey in Detroit.
> Again, no idea on what NY gives up or receives.
> 
> I heard this from an extremely credible source; not saying it's gonna happen, but it's definitely a possibility.


I hope your right. I love what sheed has brought to this team and I believe he was the missing piece. That being said if we can get KG for him I am all for it. I am pretty sure we would have to trade Darko also. I would be willing to send Delfino, Sheed and Darko plus a #1 if it lands us KG.


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## MLKG

I'm guessing under that scenario Rasheed would go to New York, Darko to Minnesota, and then New York would likely be sending Marbury to Minnesota as well, with the possiblity of maybe McCants going to be with the North Carolina guys as well.

This is pretty much the only scenario I would ever think it a good idea to trade Darko and Sheed in.


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## kamego

Mike luvs KG said:


> I'm guessing under that scenario Rasheed would go to New York, Darko to Minnesota, and then New York would likely be sending Marbury to Minnesota as well, with the possiblity of maybe McCants going to be with the North Carolina guys as well.
> 
> This is pretty much the only scenario I would ever think it a good idea to trade Darko and Sheed in.


I am pretty sure Rasheed is gone within the next year but I don't think we make this trade until we get Ben and Prince locked up with new deals. KG would be putting us in luxury tax land next season.


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## Midnight_Marauder

the wall said:


> I heard from a source that there is a trade that is being heavily discussed right now between the Pistons, T-Wolves, and Knicks. At this point there is just talk, but apparently the teams are getting pretty serious.
> 
> Pistons woudl be giving up Sheed and Delfino
> I don't know what the Knicks are giving in the trade
> And the TWolves would send Garnett to the Pistons.
> 
> Apparently Sheed really wants to be in NY and really wants to be with LB.
> Garnett wants to be with Flip and Chauncey in Detroit.
> Again, no idea on what NY gives up or receives.
> 
> I heard this from an extremely credible source; not saying it's gonna happen, but it's definitely a possibility.


I heard the same thing but I heard it is Sheed, Tayshaun and Delfino...


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## froggyvk

I don't think there's any chance KG is traded. The Pistons might have the resources to trade with the T-Wolves without a third team getting involved, but KG is the franchise there. Why would they trade him?

Sheed going to the Knicks is why I think the rumor is bogus. So we're making it a 3-team trade, sending Sheed to the Knicks, then what in the heck would the Knicks send to Minnesota? Isiah probably wants to keep Marbury-Crawford-Richardson in tact, so is Minnesota going to settle for Mike Sweetney and picks for KG? Other bad contracts? Please.


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## Brian.

froggyvk said:


> I don't think there's any chance KG is traded. The Pistons might have the resources to trade with the T-Wolves without a third team getting involved, but KG is the franchise there. Why would they trade him?
> 
> Sheed going to the Knicks is why I think the rumor is bogus. So we're making it a 3-team trade, sending Sheed to the Knicks, then what in the heck would the Knicks send to Minnesota? Isiah probably wants to keep Marbury-Crawford-Richardson in tact, so is Minnesota going to settle for Mike Sweetney and picks for KG? Other bad contracts? Please.


Marbury does not play the LB way. I wouldn't be suprised if they are shopping him.


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## kamego

Crawford-Marbury-Q all don't play the LB way


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## DetBNyce

The thing is like Froggy said is what do the Knicks have to give up? Even if Zeke was willing to part with Marbury does anyone think they would send out KG to bring a player like Marbury back in. Besides that being a terrible trade it would be a PR nightmare. A lot more players would have to be involved and I think we would have to give up more than Darko, Delfino, and Sheed to land KG. It has to have another high impact player involved like Tay or Rip, IMO, to get anything done.


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## kamego

If anyone remembers, they were trying to swing a trade with KG in it to land Darko before he was drafted. I am assuming someone in their GM department thinks very highly of him but I doubt they do anything that would kill the PR department.


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## scapegoat

No way to I think that this will actually happen, because you just don't smash up the core of a team that came within a few points of a back-to-back chip. But it works under the cap, so...

Minnesota gives: Kevin Garnett, Ndudi Ebi
New York gives: Trevor Ariza, Stephon Marbury
Detroit gives: Tayshaun Prince, Darko Milicic, Carlos Arroyo, Rasheed Wallace

Minnesota gets: Tayshaun Prince, Darko Milicic, Stephon Marbury
New York gets: Ndudi Ebi, Rasheed Wallace, Carlos Arroyo
Detroit gets: Kevin Garnett, Trevor Ariza

#2515776 at realgm.com.


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## kamego

If we didn't lose Prince I would be haappy to do that kind of deal. Ariza would be a welcomed addition but that's just to much for us to lose.


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## MLKG

Darko and Sheed I would let go for KG. Tayshaun would be too much.

The whole spirit of the 3-way deal though is we send Sheed to New York if the Knicks can convince Minnesota to send KG to us. So it's not like we have to come up with all the value for him from our roster.

I think a combination of players like Marbury, Darko, Tim Thomas, Arroyo, etc... and some draft picks could at least get Minnesota thinking about it.


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## scapegoat

I think that if anyone, New York's getting really hosed in that deal. So it'll require a lot of work. But then again, Isiah's the GM, so...

Edit: the above trade still works if New York throws in Malik Rose to Detroit. Malik's getting a lot of money for four more years, so maybe that'd make the Knicks happier.


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## slyder

If a deal were to take place involving just Detroit and Minnesota, Carlos Arroyo would be involved. Troy Hudson is a nice player, but I have a feeling the TWolves would desperately like to cut him. Dude is making a ton. I don't think the Pistons would have to include Tayshaun to get this thing done. 

Rasheed, Darko, Arroyo, and a future 1st for Kevin Garnett.

If they can find a way to move Sam Cassell, this trade nets them a top power forward, a young starting calibar point guard, Darko Milicic, and the added flexibility of a 1st rounder, which doesn't necessarily need to be used by the Wolves to grab a low draft pick. 

And if they want the junk that the Knicks can offer, something could be worked out there too.


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## The Enigma

The summer months are apparently taking their effect as heat induced delusions are running wild on BBB's. 

Rasheed Wallace as the centerpiece of a deal is not going to land you Kevin Garnett.

What is it with this rumor (?)… 

Sheed for Garnett rumors (in some form or another) have been circulating for the better part of 6 years now. It did not happen when Rasheed was twice the player he is today but it will somehow happen now (?).

For one, Garnett is in my opinion the best player in the NBA and some ridiculous package of Rasheed, Darko and Arroyo is simply not going to get it done. Second, even if the Knicks are involved it does not mean that they are going to sweeten Detroit’s package without wanting something substantial in return (say a Rip Hamilton). 
Now looking at the above proposed scenarios for this deal can someone honestly explain to me why the team giving up the best player outside of Garnett, the only other perennial all-star caliber talent in the deal (Marbury) not want Garnett for themselves? After all they are coughing up the biggest piece (are they not). Why allow the Pistons to acquire Garnett for what essentially amounts to Rasheed and some bubble rap (aka Darko and Delfino)? 

For the ball to begin rolling on such a trade (be it two teams or three teams) you are looking at:

Richard Hamilton (Prince), Rasheed Wallace and Darko Milicic (one proven perimeter player, one proven post player and an unknown commodity who could potentially swing the verdict of the deal heavily in your favor)...

...at the minimum (I suspect draft picks to also be included). The big decision would be whether it is Prince or Hamilton included to make the deal work.

I personally believe that teams would rather have Hamilton due to the fact that he is a more consistent and proven commodity, and is already locked up long term at a reasonable rate. Prince though he is younger and a bit more intriguing (in some respects) is a player who potentially could command interest in free agency a few seasons from now. The team who holds his rights would have to up his salary considerably thus making the economical balance of the deal unappealing (taking Prince in a package on his rookie salary scale then resigning him means that the other team could ultimately be taking in more contract then they are giving out). To balance this out the team receiving him would probably want immediately expiring filler players to be included on their end or one or more bloated contracts coming off their books (making any such deal more complicated).

-----------

Just because Flip Saunders is the new coach of the Detroit Pistons does not mean that Garnett all of a sudden becomes a possibility. It seems quite easy for the common fan to plug two and two together but in actuality this has little to no base in reality. Seemingly whenever a team signs a new coach rumors begin floating (of the reliable sources variety) about the coaches new team looking to acquire a player (typically a star player) that has been associated with that coach. Now this make for great off season debate and warm fuzzy feelings but how often does it actually happen? Did Pippen follow Phil to LA (that was a hot rumor back then)? Did Daniels fallow McMillan to Portland (which was a rumor earlier this summer)? 

So now Rasheed wants to go to NY because of LB and Garnett wants to go to Detroit to rejoin with Flip (the same Flip that a team led by he gave up on last season) and Billups...

Now is it just me or is this just a bit too fuzzy wuzzy to be believable. In the NBA people are being paid copious sums of money to do what is in the best interest for their respective teams. Not to align the stars and bring to fruition the good feeling wishes of players (particularly KG type players who mean so much to their franchise).

To say the least I simply do not see it happening. KG has more value then that. 

_...Would Indiana not be willing to part with packages starting with J. O'Neal or Artest for Garnett? Would Orlando not entertain packages starting with Frances and Howard for Garnett? How about Joe Johnson and Marion? How about Dirk Nowitzki?_


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## MLKG

All good and true in a perfect world, but in reality teams rarely if ever get equal value when trading a superstar.

Vince Carter for Eric and Aaron Williams, Baron Davis for Speedy Claxton, Rasheed Wallace for Chucky Atkins.

Now I don't see why Minnesota would ever want to deal Garnett, but I also don't know why LA ever wanted to deal Shaq.

I don't think this is going to happen, I don't think anyone else really thinks it's going to happen. But if Minnesota wanted to start over, I think Marbury and Darko would be a realistic starting point for a deal. Not saying it would happen, but it could at least be talked about.


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## The Enigma

Mike luvs KG said:


> All good and true in a perfect world, but in reality teams rarely if ever get equal value when trading a superstar.


Equal value is relative to perception. To some teams equal value could be assessed to the cap space freed up by a particular deal. One team may value talent for the here and now while another may value cap relief for the future. The success of such deals usually cannot be assessed until many years have passed.



> Vince Carter for Eric and Aaron Williams, Baron Davis for Speedy Claxton, Rasheed Wallace for Chucky Atkins.


Every one of those trades were consummated under the assumption of wiping the slate clean and starting over via young talent and or expiring contracts. Under such a scenario one can acquire talent exceeding that which they supplant if the motive of one of the trading partners is to dump salary in preparation for a free agent wooing bonanza or promising lottery down the road.



> Now I don't see why Minnesota would ever want to deal Garnett, but I also don't know why LA ever wanted to deal Shaq.


Well unlike Garnett an aging Shaq on the negative side of 30 was demanding a massive contract extension.



> I don't think this is going to happen, I don't think anyone else really thinks it's going to happen. But if Minnesota wanted to start over, I think Marbury and Darko would be a realistic starting point for a deal. Not saying it would happen, but it could at least be talked about.


If the Timberwolves held Darko in extremely high regard then I could understand them shipping Garnett to land him in a package comprised of Darko and a few serviceable players on expiring contracts. Essentially indicating that they are in full salary dump mode and attempting to start over.

Marbury and Darko may be a good starting point (though I do believe there to be better options legitimately available to Minnesota) however it brings me back to my original quandary.

What specifically does NY stand to gain by sweetening Detroit’s package to such an extent?

Rasheed Wallace???

_- Hamilton (Prince), R. Wallace... now your talking. 
- Rasheed Wallace and the pips simply will not get it done._


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## kamego

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it can't happen


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## DetBNyce

I'm with enigma on this one, there's no way get KG without giving up 2 starters. and the only options (besides Sheed) really appear to Rip or Prince.


As a side, Vince is a different scenario. Besides Toronto wanting to start over, apparently he pretty much was dogging it during his last few months there. They unlike Minnesota had a reason for trading Vince other than what seesm like to put KG in a better situation.


At the end of the day teams (most teams) are going to do what's best for them and not the player.


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## MLKG

The Enigma said:


> What specifically does NY stand to gain by sweetening Detroit’s package to such an extent?


This is the only reason I think this rumor has any legs at all. Isiah Thomas is involved. Seemingly all of his moves are knee jerk and irrational- and Larry Brown is coming to town.

If through a combination of Brown considering Rasheed one of the best big men in the game, Brown considering Marbury a bad fit for their squad, Isiah being high enough on Nate Robinson, and low enough on their front court- then yes, I think it is absolutely plausible that the Knicks would be willing to give up more than they get in order to redistribute their balance of talent more evenly, because as they currently stand, they are very backcourt heavy.

The whole crux of a deal would not be how much we are willing to give up for Garnett, because we're not going to move more than one starter, but how much New York is willing to give up for Sheed.

Do I think it will happen? No. I still don't see any reason for Minnesota to trade Garnett for any package. And this wouldn't even be being discussed if it wasn't for the fact that absolutely nothing has happened with the Pistons this offseason and there is nothing else to talk about.


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