# Is Jason Kidd the worst defensive point guard in the league?



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I mean Kidd was great...but every time I see the box score quick PGs give him crazy numbers...and he can't replicate it. I know stats aren't the end all be all...but they are a significant piece of evidence when they're consistently one sided.

We saw what Paul did to him last year..Rondo recently..quick point guards destroy him.

So I ask, is there a worse starting defensive point guard in the league? Ok, I'll go besides Steve Nash because at least Kidd does fare decently with shooting guards and big point guards.

We're entering the territory with Kidd where the good he does offensively is literally negated or trounced by what he gives up defensively, considering how important the PG matchup is to a game.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Dre™ said:


> I mean Kidd was great...but every time I see the box score quick PGs gives him crazy numbers...and he can't replicate it. I know stats aren't the end all be all...but they are a significant piece of evidence when they're consistently one sided.
> 
> We saw what Paul did to him last year..Rondo recently..quick point guards destroy him.
> 
> ...


Yeah, he's really slipped; I don't know if he's worse then Fisher, Bibby, and Beno Udrith though, but he's certainly on the way to being that bad.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

I am a Raptors fan.
And I can tell you that Jose Calderon is pretty bad himself.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

-James- said:


> I am a Raptors fan.
> And I can tell you that Jose Calderon is pretty bad himself.


I completly forgot about him, throw him on my list aswell.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Damn, only Sacramento has opposing PG's averaging a higher PER than Dallas. Sacramento 19.2 and Dallas 18.9.

The PG position is starting to become like running back in football with the short lifespan. The game is just too quick for old PG's to defend.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

Dre™ said:


> I mean Kidd was great...but every time I see the box score quick PGs give him crazy numbers...and he can't replicate it. I know stats aren't the end all be all...but they are a significant piece of evidence when they're consistently one sided.
> 
> We saw what Paul did to him last year..Rondo recently..quick point guards destroy him.
> 
> ...


Are we talking starters only? If not I nominate Chris Quinn


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## Chan Ho Nam (Jan 9, 2007)

Calderon, Iverson, Derek Fisher, Farmar are pretty bad


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

does Ben Gordon qualify?


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Kidd hasn't been able to defend quick players for a long time and since that adjective applies to most point guard he was having problems years ago when the nets fans were claiming that he was an incredible defender.You can blame a lot of what Paul did to him on Avery Johnson,because he should have never had him on Paul for a millisecond.That's just suicidal.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

He's bad but not Fisher bad.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Fisher would be a terrible defender,but for some reason the refs let him grab his man constantly and then reward him for being the biggest flopper in the history of american basketball players.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Diable said:


> Fisher would be a terrible defender,but for some reason the refs let him grab his man constantly and then reward him for being the biggest flopper in the history of american basketball players.


Pretty ironic coming from a Chris Paul fan.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Kidd isn't a great defender anymore, but I think it's fair to point out he doesn't get a lot of help behind him. Big scoring games from point guards are usually the result of poor team defense - not just the guy checking them. If you don't have a big guy who can hedge the pick and roll there isn't much you can do.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Well of course that's the larger issue...we've never had a credible defensive Center...


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

Dre™ said:


> Well of course that's the larger issue...we've never had a credible defensive Center...


Not just the larger issue but it's the main issue. Not just quick PGs but any All-Star SGs kill us on consistent basis, and that's against average defenders in Wright and Howard.


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## SetShotWilly (Jan 19, 2006)

He doesn't guard quick PGs anymore, because he is not able to keep up with them. But he is far from the worst defensive PG in the league. He is actually a very good defender as long as he is defending someone, who can't blow by him


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

Kidd has lost quickness to the point where smaller, younger, quicker players can embarrass him. I wouldn't say that he is the worst defender at his position because he is still a highly intelligent, competitive player and an excellent team defender - sadly, his team's defense sucks, so that is little consolation.


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

Kidd got a lot of help defense in Jersey that masked his inability to guard point guards. 
With a slower game tempo it was easier to help Kidd, I'm not sure Dallas can do the same with the faster pace of the WC.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

Iverson, Kidd, Nash, Barbosa, Brooks.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

OK...I have to be fair and give him props. He had two very good defensive possessions last night on D-Wade.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Dre™ said:


> OK...I have to be fair and give him props. He had two very good defensive possessions last night on D-Wade.


It was a foul!:curse:

Btw, don't you just love how all the people who cry about Wade getting foul shots and say he always gets the call were coincidentally silent after last night's game?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

VanillaPrice said:


> Pretty ironic coming from a Chris Paul fan.


While I'll wholeheartedly agree that Paul grabs like a Kennedy and flops like an Uwe Boll picture, The Fish is worse.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

he hacked Wade.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

2 complaints about the fouls, and both from Heat fans. I think it was a fantastic defensive play. Threw off his timing and momentum, and made him bring the ball up from a lower point than usual.


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

...


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Dre™;5883644 said:


> I mean Kidd was great...but every time I see the box score quick PGs give him crazy numbers...and he can't replicate it. I know stats aren't the end all be all...but they are a significant piece of evidence when they're consistently one sided.
> 
> We saw what Paul did to him last year..Rondo recently..quick point guards destroy him.
> 
> ...


You ever watch the games and not look at the box scores? Barea and Terry guard the PG's... Kidd spends more time guarding even SFs than he does PGs.

I thought you were a Mavs fan?


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

You have to be blind with monstrous amounts of hatred for Wade to say that the last possession wasn't a foul.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Is that why just about everyone in the thread agreed with me before you showed up a month later?

And what other reason is a PG guarding bigger players other than him being lit up by players at his own position?


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

Dre where are you going with this? He's 36, what do you expect? 
And you should watch more Mavericks games before you comment in this thread again because he is far from the worst defensive PG in the league or a bad defender if that.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

This thread is a month old...I bump it to praise him...and I catch **** for it. OK.

And age probably has a lot to do with it but that doesn't mean I can't comment on him looking awful against quicker players.


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

The problem is you comment on him looking awful against quicker players by looking at stats. I don't deny the fact that quick PGs always kill us because they do. I just think our help defense and Dirk... should take some blame for that.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> Is that why just about everyone in the thread agreed with me before you showed up a month later?
> 
> And what other reason is a PG guarding bigger players other than him being lit up by players at his own position?


They are all wrong as well. I don't know what else to say. Probably don't have league pass I'm guessing and are just box score surfers as well.

You can say Kidd can't guard PG's, but it's not his fault PG's are blowing up the Mavs because he isn't the one checking him.

I will watch the Mavericks next game in its entirety and we can sit here and compare notes about how often Kidd was matched up one-on-one with the opposing PG.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

Worst defensive PG is either Steve Nash or Andre Miller.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> They are all wrong as well. I don't know what else to say. Probably don't have league pass I'm guessing and are just box score surfers as well.
> 
> *You can say Kidd can't guard PG's*, but it's not his fault PG's are blowing up the Mavs because he isn't the one checking him.
> 
> I will watch the Mavericks next game in its entirety and we can sit here and compare notes about how often Kidd was matched up one-on-one with the opposing PG.


I do believe that was my initial point...that Kidd can't affect the PGs destroying us because not only is he diminished offensively (and therefore can't properly neutralize), he can't even stop them himself. His *own* position.

I also added this:



> Ok, I'll go besides Steve Nash because at least Kidd does fare decently with shooting guards and big point guards.


And no thanks to your offer


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Coatesvillain said:


> Worst defensive PG is either Steve Nash or Andre Miller.


Did you forget about Derek Fisher & Jordan Farmar?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Dre™;5924822 said:


> I do believe that was my initial point...that Kidd can't affect the PGs destroying us because not only is he diminished offensively (and therefore can't properly neutralize), he can't even stop them himself. His *own* position.
> 
> I also added this:
> 
> ...


Yes but is it so bad that he can't defend PG's when the Mavs have two scoring guards in Barea and Terry that can't defend two's? You made it seem like Kidd was no longer an asset because he was a liability on one end when in fact he's not (he guard's two and threes quite well). His lack of defensive versatility does hurt the team because they can't assign him to a PG to shut them down anymore, but a Jason Kidd defensively in your lineup is a good thing to have still.

It's like when you called the Lakers a horrible defensive team based on their opponents points per game.

When did you stop becoming a mavs fan? Is this like when futuretexan stopped becoming a bulls fan because they wanted to DNA testing on Eddy Curry?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Yes but is it so bad that he can't defend PG's when the Mavs have two scoring guards in Barea and Terry that can't defend two's? You made it seem like Kidd was no longer an asset because he was a liability on one end when in fact he's not (he guard's two and threes quite well). His lack of defensive versatility does hurt the team because they can't assign him to a PG to shut them down anymore, but a Jason Kidd defensively in your lineup is a good thing to have still.


He's still a liability in theory, but he's lucked out by the fact that we have two small guards that can guard point guards for him. If we had regular sized 2s, he'd be put in a spot where he'd have to guard PGs and he'd get outquicked ever time, which was the point of my thread.

And don't act like he's just always on twos, because I remember pretty clearly Chris Paul running him ragged in a playoff series. Chances are yes he will guard the best wing player in platoon with Howard, but he's incapable of guarding PGs. 

What happens if Terry and Barea move..or he moves to a team with regular sized personnel in the backcourt? Will you agree then that this thread has merit?



> It's like when you called the Lakers a horrible defensive team based on their opponents points per game.


And no, it wasn't based solely on their PPG, it was based on Fisher (does he guard 2s and 3s quite well), the absence of Bynum, and the softness of Gasol and Odom in the post.



> When did you stop becoming a mavs fan? Is this like when futuretexan stopped becoming a bulls fan because they wanted to DNA testing on Eddy Curry?


Never stopped being a fan, don't know exactly what you're talking about.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Basel said:


> Did you forget about Derek Fisher & Jordan Farmar?


and Mike Bibby. I guess there are a lot of weak defenders at the position.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Have to agree with whoever said Fisher would be an even worse defender than he already is, if the refs didn't let him get away with all the reaches, etc.

I'll also nominate Chris Quinn, though he doesn't get enough minutes to be the worst anything.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

well kidd was never a great man to man defender.
His whole thing has been gambling his entire career(plus rebounding)...

Nowdays he isnt quick enough to still get back to his man while gambling...but he still does a good job of going for steals and rebounding...so I wouldnt say the worst by any means


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

fjkdsi said:


> well kidd was never a great man to man defender.
> His whole thing has been gambling his entire career(plus rebounding)...
> 
> Nowdays he isnt quick enough to still get back to his man while gambling...but he still does a good job of going for steals and rebounding...so I wouldnt say the worst by any means


Huh? Kidd was a terrific man defender in his prime.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

ok he had his moments but I didn't really word it correctly meaning that most of the time he was always gambling and trying to work the boards ...I have seen him clamp up on a few guys even Kobe at a certain point if I remember correctly


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

Dirk is such an underrated player I dont think people realise. How he has kept the Mavericks in the race for a playoff spot is amazing.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

hroz said:


> Dirk is such an underrated player I dont think people realise. How he has kept the Mavericks in the race for a playoff spot is amazing.


He isn't having a great season by his standards though, the main difference is the decline of his shooting ability. Maybe it's just temporary knowing that this team has no shot at winning a championship, but it could also be a natural decline.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Damn...I make those Tupac threads...those topics that's always gonna be relevant..touchin the hearts and souls...


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

not the best barometer, considering monta ellis is one of the best scorng guards in the league and jason kidd is gonna be 37 years old in a month. I will agree with the overall premise that Kidd can't stay with point guards anymore, but thats because these kids are just too damn quick.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Andre Miller before him, what was that about?

When I make threads like this it isn't based off one night or situation, these are trends.

Now of course he isn't the absolute worst, but he's got to be in the bottom half, and given that he's nothing but a passer at this point it makes you wonder about where his overall impact levels out.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

When you have Dirk, Howard, Terry, Marion etc... you shouldn't need anymore scoring. All you need is a passer. The best teams are those with only two or three scorers and two role players.

His job is to inspire and urge the team to success. Not numbers. Getting the ball to the right person at the right time is worth it.

Sixers for example, have lots of scoring guards but, let Miller go, the one guy who knows how to pass. and look at them now .


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Not even close, frankly.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> Andre Miller before him, what was that about?
> 
> When I make threads like this it isn't based off one night or situation, these are trends.
> 
> Now of course he isn't the absolute worst, but he's got to be in the bottom half, *and given that he's nothing but a passer at this point* it makes you wonder about where his overall impact levels out.


The guy is shooting over 40% from 3.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

No Jason Kidd is not the worst defensive point guard in the league, yes he is still a good defender.

Dwight Howard couldn't guard Monta Ellis either.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Ask Dwayne Wade if Kidd is the worst defensive point guard in the league.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

OOOOOOOOH! You got me



















:sarcasm:



> *He's still a liability in theory, but he's lucked out by the fact that we have two small guards that can guard point guards for him. If we had regular sized 2s, he'd be put in a spot where he'd have to guard PGs and he'd get outquicked ever time, which was the point of my thread.*
> 
> And don't act like he's just always on twos, because I remember pretty clearly Chris Paul running him ragged in a playoff series. Chances are yes he will guard the best wing player in platoon with Howard, but he's incapable of guarding PGs.


Like I said in here earlier Kidd was guarding the 2 because he can't keep up with PGs. You think he would've been on Rose? Rondo?

Get over yourself. Dudes gassed your head up with that "archivist" bull****. Aren't you like 35 getting giddy about proving a 20 year old wrong, like I'm not still learning about basketball every day. I say plenty of stuff I no longer agree with so whatever.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

And Wade averaged 26 points on 53 % shooting and was the primary reason the Heat stayed in it so what are you saying. Or did you really need me to engage you that bad. 

Do you need me to put a gif so you can complain about that?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

I love you too. Is there a gif of a 35 year old making out with a 20 year old? Please post it.

Remember, pests can only be pests if you let them bother you or something.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> I love you too. Is there a gif of a 35 year old making out with a 20 year old? Please post it.
> 
> Remember, pests can only be pests if you let them bother you or something.


Well said. Peace


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

I'm just saying bro that was some rant. Can you get laid tomorrow night to ease that stress and anger?


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## MarionBarberThe4th (Jul 7, 2005)

Rondo is the worst defensive PG in the league


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

LOL Kidd defended amazingly against Wade. It was predominately the others who got lit up by him.

But yeah saying PGs are faster than a guy with the nickname Flash really???????


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## Ghost (Jun 21, 2002)

hroz said:


> LOL Kidd defended amazingly against Wade. It was predominately the others who got lit up by him.
> 
> But yeah saying PGs are faster than a guy with the nickname Flash really???????




I believe a lot of that Flash stuff came from Shaq being Superman


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

Best job Kidd did in the playoffs defensively was against Durant... hand down.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

It's just funny because Dre acts like such a know-it-all and talks down to people on this site all the time. He comes into threads with his one-liners and mocking gifs and expects the thread to be over because he has spoken. The irony of course being he doesn't know what he's talking about and doesn't have original thoughts. Then he starts crying because his BS gets called out, when he's posted plenty of times in the last few weeks alone about things he's supposedly "called" happening.

:2ti:


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I know for some reason you can't wait to try and insult me...I'm still not sure what the reason is yet.

But I know just about as much if not more than most people on this site about what the **** I'm talking about. I don't really need your e-cosigns

Especially when this thread isn't a backfire. Why bump a thread about a guy not being able to guard PGs when he probably hasn't guarded one since the thread was created. Like what's the point. Nobody got called out on anything in here

And my favorite original thought about the Heat is especially great because they'll run the NBA for the next 6 years, and they established the blueprint that'll have Dwight out of Orlando in two years and you can release more pent up anger at 28 win seasons at my expense

























































*know it all GIF*


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Dre said:


> I know for some reason you can't wait to try and insult me...I'm still not sure what the reason is yet.


Pretty sure I just spelled out why. You talk down to people as if you have some authoritative voice on that site, for what reason God only knows.



> But I know just about as much if not more than most people on this site about what the **** I'm talking about. I don't really need your e-cosigns


No, you don't.



> Especially when this thread isn't a backfire. Why bump a thread about a guy not being able to guard PGs when he probably hasn't guarded one since the thread was created. Like what's the point. Nobody got called out on anything in here


Then why are you crying and begging for mercy from the big, bad 35-year-old just a few posts up?



> And my favorite original thought about the Heat is especially great because they'll run the NBA for the next 6 years, and they established the blueprint that'll have Dwight out of Orlando in two years and you can release more pent up anger at 28 win seasons at my expense


There ya go, attack my team. Got me! :2ti:


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

You sound like R-Star right now. Whatever man


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

kidd is still an amazing defender for SG/SF's apparently. i think all the quick pg's still blow past him with ease but it's barea/terry's job to guard pg's. kidd takes the swingman and he does an excellent job.


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

good seat


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

ChosenFEW said:


> good seat


Best use of a gif I've ever seen.

Not saying much though.


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

This thread was actually made. Amazing. Even better are the people earlier in this thread that claimed Kidd was never a great on-ball defender.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Tersk said:


> Best use of a gif I've ever seen.
> 
> Not saying much though.


LOL, that's like going to a club and complementing a ****** on best use of a pink shirt.



> But I know just about as much if not more than most people on this site about what the **** I'm talking about.


In all honesty this was not that great of a bump except to say Kidd clearly isn't a bad defender. Your orginial premise stated he was guarding PG's when he never was.

Now threads like that Collison one where you claimed you WOULd bump the thread when right and never did are a different story.

And who the hell is 35? *angry black guy gif*


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> LOL, that's like going to a club and complementing a ****** on best use of a pink shirt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


how is that 1 :clown:


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