# Best 10 PGs in the NBA today



## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

What's your list right now? I'm talking about how good they are this instant in terms of what they do to help their teams win.

For the record, I'm considering Monta Ellis and Tyreke Evans as SGs. Include them in your list if you feel otherwise.

1) Chris Paul
2) Deron Williams
3) Chauncey Billups
4) Steve Nash
5) Rajon Rondo
6) Derrick Rose
7) Russell Westbrook
8) Jason Kidd
9) Tony Parker
10) Aaron Brooks

I'm sure some of you think I put Rondo and Billups too high, but if I'm picking a PG to run my team for one season, this is my order of preference.

Next tier: Baron Davis, Andre Miller, Brandon Jennings, Mo Williams, Jameer Nelson, Stephen Curry


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

Parker is too low, based on this season yes but he has been battling a lot of injuries
Id put him above Kidd for sure


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

Nice you're no longer putting Jennings at 5 :laugh:


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## PerfectionAJ (Feb 15, 2010)

1) Deron Williams
2) Chris Paul
3) Steve Nash
4) Chauncey Billups
5) Derrick Rose
6) Rajon Rondo
7) Tony Parker
8) Jason Kidd
9) Russell Westbrook
10) Jameer Nelson 

That'd be how I rank them personally though could probably be called a bit biased putting Rose in the top 5 but hey he's awesome.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

1) Deron Williams
2) Chris Paul
3) Chauncey Billups
4) Steve Nash
5) Derrick Rose
6) Baron Davis
7) Rajon Rondo
8) Jason Kidd
9) Tony Parker
10) Russell Westbrook


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Lebron James then:

1) Chris Paul - He is injured but ignoring that he's easily the best PG in the game.
2) Steve Nash - Holy ****, he's well over 30 years old and is putting up over 17+ points, 11 assists, on 50% shooting? Thats awesome.
3) Deron Williams 
4) Chauncey Billups
5) Rondo
6) Tyreke Evans - Already averaging a better PER than Rose
7) Rose
8) Parker - Despite all the injuries; 16.8 pts/5.9 assists/.48FG% in 32 minutes still isn't too shabby.
9) Jason Kidd - One of the main reasons why the Mavs did/are well but also one of their biggest exploitable weaknesses
10) Westbrook


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Parker isn't too low on any list. If you base it upon how good he's been this year Parker isn't better than Raymond Felton


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

1 - Chris Paul
2 - Deron Williams
3 - Steve Nash
4 - Rondo
5 - Ty Evans
6 - Billups
7 - Rose
8 - Westbrook
9 - Jennings
10 - Steph Curry


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## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

1 - Williams
2 - Paul
3 - Nash
4 - Billups
5 - Parker
6 - Rose
7 - Evans
8 - Kidd
9 - Rondo
10 - Curry

It's always easy to forget just how great of a year Paul had and he's averaging a very solid 20 10 but apart from that one season where the Hornets finished second in the West I don't think he's shown as strong a resume as Deron Williams.


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## Vuchato (Jan 14, 2006)

Deron Williams
Chris Paul
Steve Nash
Tony Parker
Chauncey Billups
Aaron Brooks
Devin Harris
Lou Williams
Stephen Curry
Andre Miller


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

gi0rdun said:


> It's always easy to forget just how great of a year Paul had and he's averaging a very solid 20 10 but apart from that one season where the Hornets finished second in the West I don't think he's shown as strong a resume as Deron Williams.


Those aren't Paul's averages. Look again. What are Deron's averages? Maybe you're confused...Well you obviously don't remember that Deron's never had one season where he was even as good as Paul. He certainly isn't this year either. If you like Deron better that's fine, but you should make an argument you can back up. Which one of those seasons was Deron better than Paul? He has had a better team around him his entire career, but that's the end of it.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Deron
Paul
Steve
Big Shot
Tyreke
Monta
Tony
Russell
Derrick
Rajon


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Monta Ellis and Tyreke Evans aren't point guards. They are shooting guards. They don't run any kind of offense out there.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Anybody putting Deron number one mind explaining their logic in doing so? Because I can't see it...


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

GregOden said:


> Anybody putting Deron number one mind explaining their logic in doing so? Because I can't see it...


Big physical guard who creates more matchup issues. Alot of PG's can keep up with CP3's scoring, but Deron's game seems to wear guys down alot more and take other PGs off a their game. Idk, just my opinion i guess.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

gi0rdun said:


> 1 - Williams
> 2 - Paul
> 3 - Nash
> 4 - Billups
> ...


^^^Pretty close to how I'd rank them. However, hard to deny Chris Paul the #1 spot. When he's healthy, there's nobody better at the position all around. Flip him & Deron, and we're in business. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks Rondo is overrated.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

To echo previous statements, Evans and (to a lesser extent)Ellis cannot be included on these lists, as they're clearly score-first shooting guards. If they're eligible, then I see no reason that Brandon Roy or Dwayne Wade shouldn't be on these lists either. Also, Rondo's better than Kidd.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

CP3 is without question the best point guard in the league.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Anybody who doesn't think Rondo is a Top 5 PG is kidding themselves.


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## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

Bogg said:


> To echo previous statements, Evans and (to a lesser extent)Ellis cannot be included on these lists, as they're clearly score-first shooting guards. If they're eligible, then I see no reason that Brandon Roy or Dwayne Wade shouldn't be on these lists either. Also, Rondo's better than Kidd.


Trying to argue basketball positions is seriously one of the most pointless arguments that you can. For arguments sake, I think with the exception of Ginobili, anyone that is capable of making a 'Top 10' List is a starter so I just go by their position as a starter. Someone like LeBron James can play the role of any position at any given play.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

Blue Magic said:


> Big physical guard who creates more matchup issues. Alot of PG's can keep up with CP3's scoring, but Deron's game seems to wear guys down alot more and take other PGs off a their game. Idk, just my opinion i guess.


Seconded. He's also a better defender and shooter than Paul.

Furthermore, Deron Williams out-plays Chris Paul almost every time they play, if someone could find the stats that'd be great but I'm pretty sure I'm on point when I say that Deron Williams owns Chris Paul head to head.

Since their play-making skills are both so strong, I think it's really a matter of opinion and matchups with these two. You can go for D-Will's combination size and strength, while still being one of the quicker, more explosive players in the league or CP3's sheer speed and athleticism.


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## Vuchato (Jan 14, 2006)

GregOden said:


> Anybody who doesn't think Rondo is a Top 5 PG is kidding themselves.


Rondo is super overrated. He's not a good shooter, but he's playing next to two great ones that help clear the paint for him, and also having all the great players around him increase his assist numbers. He's not a very good defender, he gets steals, but he gambles a lot. He's a solid rebounder, but I don't care much about a PGs rebounds.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I'd like to know how Deron Williams is a better shooter than Chris Paul. Which one of these guys is shooting over 50% from the floor? Which one is shooting 42% on three pointers? In fact right now Deron's shooting percentage is the same as Paul's career shooting percentage...In fact none of his numbers this year are better than Paul's career numbers. How the hell can you be better than someone when their whole career is better than your season?


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Yea, ignoring injury CP3 is easily better than D-Will. They're both great but stat-wise the only areas D-Will wins is height and weight...

EDIT: Actually D-Will also is averaging more turnovers this season compared to CP3 (3.3 versus 2.5). His career average is 3.0 compared to CP3's career average of 2.6.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Paul plays in an offense geared around him holding the ball practically the entire game. It's not a coincidence that Collison is putting up the same exact numbers (with more turnovers). Deron outplays every single time, he's more durable and he's lead his team further than Paul has. Deron will also have a longer career than Paul.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

That's a completely bogus argument, but it's one you've worn out. You know perfectly well that systems which inflate stats inflate all stats. That is to say if the system made Pauls assists higher it would also make his turnovers higher...Like Deron's. Instead people persist will this nonsense. It doesn't hold a drop of water. When Nash's assists went up so did his turnovers. When you look at Magic's numbers, his turnovers are always proportionate to the pace he played at. Somehow Paul plays in a system which magically inflates all his numbers except the bad ones.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Vuchato said:


> Deron Williams
> Chris Paul
> Steve Nash
> Tony Parker
> ...



Derrick Rose objects:


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Vuchato said:


> Rondo is super overrated. He's not a good shooter, but he's playing next to two great ones that help clear the paint for him, and also having all the great players around him increase his assist numbers. He's not a very good defender, he gets steals, but he gambles a lot. He's a solid rebounder, but I don't care much about a PGs rebounds.


.....says the guy who had Devin Harries, Lou Williams, and Andre Miller as top 10 point guards. Rondo's a top 10 point guard, top 5 might be a stretch. Rondo's an excellent defender(second team all-NBA defense last year), although recently he's developing a tendency to get a bit lazy on that end. No, he's not a good shooter, but he's also one of the Celtics two best players this season and is helping to prop up Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen, who have slipped much more than their numbers show this year. Every aspect of his game is good to great, with the exception of his shooting.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

GregOden said:


> Anybody who doesn't think Rondo is a Top 5 PG is kidding themselves.


It's not a no-brainer. I understand why some think so, but I personally disagree. Since we're talking right now, not taking age & contract into consideration, I can name 6 point guards who I'd rather have (assuming good health):

1 - Paul
2 - Williams
3 - Nash
4 - Billups
5 - Parker
6 - Rose

I admit the Rose pick is a homer thing (I just appreciate the mega role he's played in getting the Bulls where they are). But even taking Rose out, that's still 5 that I'd personally rather have. 

Tony Parker when healthy is every bit as quick as Rondo, and is an even more dangerous threat with the ball. 

Rondo's steals numbers don't fool me, steals are such an overrated stat. There are many great defenders who don't get steals, and some very mediocre and even bad defenders that get alot of steals.


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

Diable said:


> That's a completely bogus argument, but it's one you've worn out. You know perfectly well that systems which inflate stats inflate all stats. That is to say if the system made Pauls assists higher it would also make his turnovers higher...Like Deron's. Instead people persist will this nonsense. It doesn't hold a drop of water. When Nash's assists went up so did his turnovers. When you look at Magic's numbers, his turnovers are always proportionate to the pace he played at. Somehow Paul plays in a system which magically inflates all his numbers except the bad ones.


Good point. Assists per game alone is not a good indicator of play-making. CP has the best A/TO this season and given how much he handles the ball, it is remarkable.
It doesn't make sense to say that Collison can be compared to Paul just because he's had multiple double-digit assist games.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

I wish there was a stat that showed how other PG's perform against a said player, compared to their normal avgs... I feel like the way Deron plays, he takes other PG's off of their game. Granted, you cant argue against Paul's #s, but if it is a head-to-head matchup and I could chose any PG, i'd probably take Deron.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

1. Paul
2. Williams
3. Nash
4. Rose
5. Billups
6. Parker
7. Kidd
8. Rondo
9. Davis
10. Curry

Evans is a 2 guard.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

After the last few months, is there really any answer that's not Lebron James? What point guard out there is matching 30/11/7 on over 50 percent shooting, while winning what...13 straight? The man might be the best point guard, small forward, AND power forward in the league.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

^^^LBJ is best player in the world, IMO, but when it comes to being a point guard, there are plenty others I would choose over him.

That is to say, LBJ is not the best (might not even be top 10) when it comes to running point guard duties. Does he facilitate ball movement better than these other guys? Does he break presses? Does he defend the position well (i.e., other point guards)?

The man is great, but not so great that he plays that role better than guys who dedicate their full craft into the position.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Yeah I mean besides Paul, dont see any other point guard mentioned in this thread that dominates the ball as much as Bron.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

14.1 ppg (51.7% FG), 9.8 apg (4th in the NBA), 4.4 rpg, 2.5 spg (1st in the NBA), PER - 19.9 (highest on the Celtics)

Rondo is not a perfect basketball player, but he is a top 5 point guard.


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> After the last few months, is there really any answer that's not Lebron James? What point guard out there is matching 30/11/7 on over 50 percent shooting, while winning what...13 straight? The man might be the best point guard, small forward, AND power forward in the league.


Really? That's like saying Wade is a better PG than Billups because he's got more apg.

For one, LeBron's A/TO ratio is only 23rd in the league.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

1.) Chris Paul
2.) Deron Williams
3.) Steve Nash
4.) Chauncy Billups
5.) Derrick Rose
6.) Rajon Rondo
7.) Tony Parker
8.) Jason Kidd
9.) Russell Westbrook
10.) Stephen Curry


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

VanillaPrice said:


> 1.) Chris Paul
> 2.) Deron Williams
> 3.) Steve Nash
> 4.) Chauncy Billups
> ...


This is probably the closest to a list that I completely agree with. Paul, Williams, Nash and Billups have to be in the top four in some order. Rose and Rondo are about as close as two vastly different players that play the same position can be, so they're interchangeable on this list IMO. Parker and Kidd are still very good, but I don't think they can be put above the six guys listed ahead of them. Westbrook's been excellent this year(16, 8 and 5) but his shooting percentages(41%/24%) prevent him from being any higher than eighth. Curry I'm not sold on, because the GS system inflates stats and I get the feeling he'd be best suited playing with a two-guard who can facilitate the offense, but putting him tenth is defensible.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

GregOden said:


> 14.1 ppg (51.7% FG), 9.8 apg (4th in the NBA), 4.4 rpg, 2.5 spg (1st in the NBA), PER - 19.9 (highest on the Celtics)
> 
> Rondo is not a perfect basketball player, but he is a top 5 point guard.


I admit Rondo has impressed me this year with his leadership, and poise... But that said i still dont know if he is 5, I put him around #7 or so... My updated list:

Deron
Paul
Steve
Big Shot
Derrick
Rajon
Curry
Tony
Russell
Miller


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## Vuchato (Jan 14, 2006)

GregOden said:


> 14.1 ppg (51.7% FG), 9.8 apg (4th in the NBA), 4.4 rpg, 2.5 spg (1st in the NBA), PER - 19.9 (highest on the Celtics)
> 
> Rondo is not a perfect basketball player, but he is a top 5 point guard.


even with that fg percentage Rondo isn't that good of a scorer, due to bad shooting and not getting to the line much. I could care less about rebounds from a point guard, and his steals are because he gambles a lot. Assists are nice but he does have a lot of guys who can knock down shots well. Besides, getting a lot of assists is overrated anyway.


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

Andre Miller over Kidd, seriously?


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Vuchato said:


> Besides, getting a lot of assists is overrated anyway.


How so?


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## Vuchato (Jan 14, 2006)

Bogg said:


> How so?


The last time a guy averaged a lot of assists and won a title was Isaiah Thomas in the 80s. Since then, only one player has averaged over 7 assists per game during the season and won a title, Avery Johnson averaged 7.4 in the 90s for the Spurs. Its better to have good team movement than one guy really dominating the ball that much. I prefer three point shooting, defending, and general scoring out of my point guards.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

So you want a point guard who's the fifth best player on his team. Let's rank point guards by their ineffectiveness then.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Vuchato said:


> The last time a guy averaged a lot of assists and won a title was Isaiah Thomas in the 80s. Since then, only one player has averaged over 7 assists per game during the season and won a title, Avery Johnson averaged 7.4 in the 90s for the Spurs. Its better to have good team movement than one guy really dominating the ball that much. I prefer three point shooting, defending, and general scoring out of my point guards.


Magic Johnson won five titles averaging over 7 assists per game(most of them well over 7), Mo Cheeks averaged 6.9 on the '83 Sixers squad that won the title, and Nate Archibald averaged 7.7 assists on the '81 Celtics. The '92 Bulls had Pippen average 7.0 apg playing point-forward, which counts. From 1980-1992 nine of the thirteen title teams had a player average over 7 assists per game and three of the four that didn't had a player in the high sixes(Bird at 6.6 and 6.8, Mo Cheeks at 6.9). 

The only team in recent history to win a title with a scoring point guard who shot a lot of threes was the Pistons upsetting the Lakers in '04, so having a high-level facilitator in the offense is actually much more proven than a scoring, perimter-oriented point guard. The fact of the matter is you can build a championship team with either a ball-dominating distributor or a high-scoring guard running the offense depending on who you surround them with. Claiming assists are irrelevant by setting an arbitrary line at 7pg as a determinant of success when 18 of the last 19 NBA champions have been built around either Jordan, Kobe, or a top big man(Olajuwon, Duncan, Shaq, or KG) is intellectually dishonest at best. Those Spurs and Lakers teams would have been just as successful, and likely more so, had you substituted Nash or Kidd for their starting points.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Boom.


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## Vuchato (Jan 14, 2006)

Bogg said:


> Magic Johnson won five titles averaging over 7 assists per game(most of them well over 7), Mo Cheeks averaged 6.9 on the '83 Sixers squad that won the title, and Nate Archibald averaged 7.7 assists on the '81 Celtics. The '92 Bulls had Pippen average 7.0 apg playing point-forward, which counts. From 1980-1992 nine of the thirteen title teams had a player average over 7 assists per game and three of the four that didn't had a player in the high sixes(Bird at 6.6 and 6.8, Mo Cheeks at 6.9).


you may or may not be aware, but things change over time. Thats why I was going with recent history. As far as Pippen, I said over 7, he got exactly 7. 7 isn't even that much for a point guard to get, 9 are averaging that much this year. 6 is pretty much average.



Bogg said:


> The only team in recent history to win a title with a scoring point guard who shot a lot of threes was the Pistons upsetting the Lakers in '04, so having a high-level facilitator in the offense is actually much more proven than a scoring, perimter-oriented point guard. The fact of the matter is you can build a championship team with either a ball-dominating distributor or a high-scoring guard running the offense depending on who you surround them with. Claiming assists are irrelevant by setting an arbitrary line at 7pg as a determinant of success when 18 of the last 19 NBA champions have been built around either Jordan or a top big man(Olajuwon, Duncan, Shaq, or KG) is intellectually dishonest at best. Those Spurs and Lakers teams would have been just as successful, and likely more so, had you substituted Nash or Kidd for their starting points.


I'm not talking those great players, I'm talking Rondo here. He's a guy that pretty much all he's above average at are his assist numbers. I'll take a guy like Parker who can score or a guy like Fisher who could shoot over him.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

How many of you guys have watched Parker play this year? There's a Spurs fan in this thread. Look for Parker in his top ten.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Vuchato said:


> you may or may not be aware, but things change over time. Thats why I was going with recent history. As far as Pippen, I said over 7, he got exactly 7. 7 isn't even that much for a point guard to get, 9 are averaging that much this year. 6 is pretty much average.


True, but those 80's teams all fit modern championship molds. They had dominant big men(Moses, Kareem, McHale/Parish), excellent swingmen(Bird, Dr. J, Wilkes/Worthy), top five talents(Bird, Magic, Moses, Kareem), as well as supporting casts featuring all-star/borderline all-star talents. That's a modern blueprint to a championship. You can't just dismiss those teams because they don't conform to your argument. 





Vuchato said:


> I'm not talking those great players, I'm talking Rondo here. He's a guy that pretty much all he's above average at are his assist numbers. I'll take a guy like Parker who can score or a guy like Fisher who could shoot over him.


He's good to great in every department aside from his shooting. He's an excellent ball-handler, finishes around the rim very well for a point guard, a very good rebounder for his size, is a good to great defender depending on how focused he is that night, and shows good shot selection(hence his FG% despite the inability to shoot). He could easily average 16-20 ppg this year if he was focused less on getting everyone involved, but it's not in the teams best interest to do so. I mean honestly, other than his jump shot, what else is left to be desired?

Also, in regards to Fisher, he's not a good shooter anymore, and his career percentages are good-but-not-great for someone who mostly took open jumpshots. Fisher was a useful player, but at no point was he someone you took over a game-changer(in a vacuum, he was a better fit on the Shaq-Kobe Lakers though).


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

lol fisher over rondo. :laugh:


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Vuchato said:


> He's a guy that pretty much all he's above average at are his assist numbers. I'll take a guy like Parker who can score or a guy like Fisher who could shoot over him.


And yet here is your list:



> Deron Williams
> Chris Paul
> Steve Nash
> Tony Parker
> ...



You prefer a scoring PG to one who doles out assists, yet you have Andre Miller ahead of Derrick Rose, arguably the best scoring PG in the league.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Thank goodness most people have stopped overrating Devin Harris


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## Vuchato (Jan 14, 2006)

Dornado said:


> And yet here is your list:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lmao, Rose is not a very good scorer, he just takes a lot of shots.

^for Fisher over Rondo, i didn't mean this year, i meant in the past when he was knocking down 3's twice a game at a .400 clip. 

For Rondo, his bad shooting and defense make it tough to have him on the floor. You need at least 2 guys who can threes down, and 3-4 good defenders in a lineup. He's lucky to have had 2 of the best shooters in the game, and one of the best defensive teams of all time around him.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Vuchato said:


> lmao, Rose is not a very good scorer, he just takes a lot of shots.
> 
> ^for Fisher over Rondo, i didn't mean this year, i meant in the past when he was knocking down 3's twice a game at a .400 clip.
> 
> For Rondo, his bad shooting and defense make it tough to have him on the floor. You need at least 2 guys who can threes down, and 3-4 good defenders in a lineup. He's lucky to have had 2 of the best shooters in the game, and one of the best defensive teams of all time around him.


That Rose comment is just beyond stupid, I'm not even going to counter it with an arguement.

Fisher is/was statistically inferior in literally every single category and is a *far* better defender then Fisher ever was. Now, don't get me wrong, I love Fish and appreciate everything he's done for the Lakers, but he's simply never played at a level even remotely close to what Rondo is doing right now. Oh, and this isn't 2008 anymore. This Celtics team is good defensively, but it's certainly nowhere near the level that it once was.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Vuchato said:


> lmao, Rose is not a very good scorer, he just takes a lot of shots.


You are killing yourself in this thread.

Derrick Rose shoots a respectable 48% from the field... he is not a chucker, and does not "just take a lot of shots". 

My recommendation would be to spend less time on the message board and more time watching basketball games.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Vuchato said:


> lmao, Rose is not a very good scorer, he just takes a lot of shots.
> 
> ^for Fisher over Rondo, i didn't mean this year, i meant in the past when he was knocking down 3's twice a game at a .400 clip.
> 
> For Rondo, his bad shooting and defense make it tough to have him on the floor. You need at least 2 guys who can threes down, and 3-4 good defenders in a lineup. He's lucky to have had 2 of the best shooters in the game, and one of the best defensive teams of all time around him.


A) Rondo is, at worst, a good defender. He was second-team NBA all-defense last year, alongside Battier, Artest, Wade, and Duncan. The fact that you're suggesting a team needs to hide Rondo defensively calls into question your ability to speak on him knowledgeably at all. 

B) Rondo is doing a lot to prop up Ray Allen and KG, who are strictly jump-shooters at this point. While it's true you need two or three good jumpshooters in the lineup for a team to really succeed with Rondo, it works both ways. You can get away with playing multiple guys who can't create their own shot and compete at a high level because Rondo gets other players open shots and layups as well as anyone in the league. Switch Rondo and Jameer Nelson and Orlando would be a much, much more dangerous team. 

C) Fisher hit 3s twice a game at a .400 clip exactly once in his career(01-02). For his career he's averaged 1 three-pointer made per game while shooting 37 percent from three. For a guy who's never averaged 44% from the field(overall, not from three), and only shot above 40% from 3 three years out of the fourteen he's been in the league, you're rating him awfully highly as a shooting point guard. Steve Kerr he's not.


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## TheVincanity (Sep 27, 2009)

1) Steve Nash
2) Deron Williams
3) Chris Paul
4) Rajon Rondo
5) Chris Paul
6) Derrick Rose
7) Russell Westbrook 
8) Jason Kidd
9) Monta Ellis
10) Brandon Jennings


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

I don't know what's worse, having Nash at number 1 or having Chris Paul at 3 _and_ 5.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

GregOden said:


> I don't know what's worse, having Nash at number 1 or having Chris Paul at 3 _and_ 5.



What he's trying to say is that Chris Paul is so good, he can play multiple games simultaneously, chess-master style. It's just hard to play up to your full ability when your attention is divided.


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## TheVincanity (Sep 27, 2009)

my fault billups at 5. 
this just my opinion. steve has averaged 18 n 10 the same he had during his MVP years, and hes 36. 
Deron stepped up this year and gone to dallas as well as improving the jazz record.
Chris Paul gone down with injuries this season and i just dont think of him as the guy i want to lead my team.

STEVE all the way


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

You guys gotta give more love to Andre Miller; his reputation has been raised almost as much as Bullups' has been since he's returned to the Nuggets. Look at how terrible the 76ers have been this season, and how surprisingly the Blazers' wheels haven't fallen off despite all their injuries. He's just another example of a PG whose value goes far beyond his numbers.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

GregOden said:


> 1 - Chris Paul
> 2 - Deron Williams
> 3 - Steve Nash
> 4 - Rondo
> ...


I guess I'll exclude Ty Evans from my list and add J Kidd there at the 10 spot.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

1. Paul/Deron
3. Nash
4. Rondo
5. Billups
6. Rose
7. Westbrook
8. Kidd
9. Parker
10. Miller


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

GregOden said:


> I don't know what's worse, having Nash at number 1 or having Chris Paul at 3 _and_ 5.





Bogg said:


> What he's trying to say is that Chris Paul is so good, he can play multiple games simultaneously, chess-master style. It's just hard to play up to your full ability when your attention is divided.


Worse he has Rondo over one of the Pauls...


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

ehmunro, post your top 10. I'm curious where you'd have Rondo at.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

Bogg said:


> What he's trying to say is that Chris Paul is so good, he can play multiple games simultaneously, chess-master style. It's just hard to play up to your full ability when your attention is divided.


:laugh:


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Bogg said:


> Magic Johnson won five titles averaging over 7 assists per game(most of them well over 7), Mo Cheeks averaged 6.9 on the '83 Sixers squad that won the title, and Nate Archibald averaged 7.7 assists on the '81 Celtics. The '92 Bulls had Pippen average 7.0 apg playing point-forward, which counts. From 1980-1992 nine of the thirteen title teams had a player average over 7 assists per game and three of the four that didn't had a player in the high sixes(Bird at 6.6 and 6.8, Mo Cheeks at 6.9).
> 
> The only team in recent history to win a title with a scoring point guard who shot a lot of threes was the Pistons upsetting the Lakers in '04, so having a high-level facilitator in the offense is actually much more proven than a scoring, perimter-oriented point guard. The fact of the matter is you can build a championship team with either a ball-dominating distributor or a high-scoring guard running the offense depending on who you surround them with. Claiming assists are irrelevant by setting an arbitrary line at 7pg as a determinant of success when 18 of the last 19 NBA champions have been built around either Jordan, Kobe, or a top big man(Olajuwon, Duncan, Shaq, or KG) is intellectually dishonest at best. Those Spurs and Lakers teams would have been just as successful, and likely more so, had you substituted Nash or Kidd for their starting points.


I'm going to have to disagree with you here. And kind of agree with Vuchato. Magic is one of the three greatest players ever to enter the NBA, and using Magic, Bird, and Pippen is far more disingenuous than anything he did. His point's actually pretty good, you want the ball in the hands of great players. Point guards that need to dominate the ball, but aren't top five players are as oft as not a detriment to winning. Rondo's usage rate reduces everyone else's utility, and he does it while being, barely, an Eastern Conference all star (and only because the position sucks on this side of the Mississippi). 

Good team passing is actually a lot more important. And while I'll agree that the Spurs would have won if they had an all-time great like Jason Kidd playing for them, I'm disagreeing on Nash. Mostly because Nash causes, for his own team, terrible defensive matchups. He's wrong to the extent that teams have won titles with Dwyane Wade averaging nearly 7 assists per game, but that's the point. Dwyane Wade earns his usage rate by being (when healthy) one of the five best players on the planet. Rondo will never get there, and his usage rates are a problem.



GregOden said:


> ehmunro, post your top 10. I'm curious where you'd have Rondo at.


I'm not sure people would like mine because I wouldn't limit my list to guys playing the 1. James and Wade run their respective offenses, and are finishing well ahead of Rondo. Bryant is the primary ballhandler out in LA (as much as anyone is the principal in the tri), so I'd probably include him, as well.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

E.H. Munro said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with you here. And kind of agree with Vuchato. Magic is one of the three greatest players ever to enter the NBA, and using Magic, Bird, and Pippen is far more disingenuous than anything he did. His point's actually pretty good, you want the ball in the hands of great players. Point guards that need to dominate the ball, but aren't top five players are as oft as not a detriment to winning. Rondo's usage rate reduces everyone else's utility, and he does it while being, barely, an Eastern Conference all star (and only because the position sucks on this side of the Mississippi).
> 
> Good team passing is actually a lot more important. And while I'll agree that the Spurs would have won if they had an all-time great like Jason Kidd playing for them, I'm disagreeing on Nash. Mostly because Nash causes, for his own team, terrible defensive matchups. He's wrong to the extent that teams have won titles with Dwyane Wade averaging nearly 7 assists per game, but that's the point. Dwyane Wade earns his usage rate by being (when healthy) one of the five best players on the planet. Rondo will never get there, and his usage rates are a problem.



See, it's not so much an argument over Rondo as it is the idea that assists are overrated and a scoring/shooting point guard(or in the case of Bird/Pippen, a forward that runs the offense) is more likely to produce a championship than an offense with a dominant distributor at the point(or in the case of Bird/Pippen, a forward that runs the offense). My point was that a successful championship contender can be built using either model, depending on what type of players and style of basketball your team features. It's no more disingenuous to point out that Magic Johnson dominated the ball for the Lakers and Bird for the Celtics than to point out that the Bulls and Shaq/Kobe Lakers featured low-usage, floor-spacing point guards because Jordan and Shaq/Kobe dominated the ball for their particular teams. Remember, I never compared Rondo to Magic or said that Rondo would be the featured player on a title team, but rather that it's foolish to largely write off assists when evaluating point guards just because the Bulls, Lakers, and Spurs didn't have one dominant distributor. Someone like Deron Williams or Chris Paul could lead a team to a title today averaging double-digit assists if they were surrounded by some top finishers, just like Wade could win another title with defenders, shooters, and rebounders.


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