# As much as I hate the Lakers...



## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

is anyone secretly hoping they do very well over the next couple of years and make the rivalry that much bigger. I would love for the Blazer-Laker rivalry to be bigtime, and to be the upstart kids that give the vets in their prime trouble while taking the throne away from them.

I really don't want this to be just a fan rivalry, and that's what's made it so exciting to me that our guys get up to play them and there's even been some near fights with them the last couple of years. The acquisition of Gasol was moderately exciting to me too, seeing as how he's a player I hate, and now I have more reason to hate him and the Lakers. I really hate Odom for all his bullying, and I can't stand Kobe for all of the obvious pretty boy arrogant whiny reasons everyone else can't stand him.

But in saying all this, I'm glad they're good, because a Blazer-Laker rivalry is just much more fun than a Blazer - Clipper, Warrior, Spur, Warrior, Jazz rivalry.

Already you have some obvious rivalry factors:
Lamarcus - Pau (two finesse bigs)
Oden - Bynum (two big youngsters, if either get healthy)
Odom - major douchebag bully
Kobe - league wide *****

but I'm secretly hoping that the Lakers are able to pick up Calderon this summer...

he fits the triangle perfect as a big guard who can hit the three, he's great friends with Pau, he wants to be on a championship contendor, and his role in Toronto is murky already.

If we could get Rudy over this would set up a Spanish rivalry to play into all these others also!

However, I think Rudy will come, but not play much and be very restrained just as Sergio has become. It could become a big problem in the KP - Nate relationship, I hope as a preemptive strike KP gets rid of Jack, kind of forcing Nate to play either Sergio or Rudy at least in stretches.

Don't you think this could be fun?

Roy/Rodriguez
Fernandez/Jones
Webster/Outlaw
Aldridge/Frye
Oden/Pryzbilla

vs

Calderon/Farmar
Kobe
Odom
Gasol/Walton
Bynum/Turiaf


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Join the winning side while you can! :biggrin: :cheers:


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## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

DaRizzle said:


> Join the winning side while you can! :biggrin: :cheers:


I'm already a blazer fan.

I anticipate over the next couple years you guys will win a few more battles than us (perhaps a title or two also) and infuriate me at multiple points, but that will makes things so much sweeter when we win the championship 4-6 out of the next 8 years afterward as your players (Kobe, Odom, Gasol) age into garbage.

We'll win the war.


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## LameR (Jan 4, 2004)

darkhelmit54 said:


> but I'm secretly hoping that the Lakers are able to pick up Calderon this summer...
> 
> he fits the triangle perfect as a big guard who can hit the three, he's great friends with Pau, he wants to be on a championship contendor, and his role in Toronto is murky already.
> 
> If we could get Rudy over this would set up a Spanish rivalry to play into all these others also!


....?

The Lakers are already going to be good. Very good. You don't need Calderon to make them more of a hurdle for us to enhance a rivalry that Laker fans don't always even acknowledge at this point.


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## GOD (Jun 22, 2003)

I wouldn't mind knocking them off their perch next year. This should become a very good rivalry. 


I too hate Kobe and especially odom, but I do have one embarrassing dirty little secret, I like Bynum. I wish they would trade him so I could go back to hating all things lakers (except DaRizzle).


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

darkhelmit54 said:


> ...but I'm secretly hoping that the Lakers are able to pick up Calderon this summer...
> 
> he fits the triangle perfect as a big guard who can hit the three, he's great friends with Pau, he wants to be on a championship contendor, and his role in Toronto is murky already.
> 
> If we could get Rudy over this would set up a Spanish rivalry to play into all these others also!


I see what you're trying to do but wow, you don't *want* the Lakers to pick up Calderon.. :laugh:


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

I hope they break the Bulls record for regular season wins and we play them in the playoffs next year and beat them in Game 7 of the Western Conference Finals. It would be oh so sweet.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

zagsfan20 said:


> I hope they break the Bulls record for regular season wins and we play them in the playoffs next year and beat them in Game 7 of the Western Conference Finals. It would be oh so sweet.


..and then you lose to the Miami Heat - 2009 NBA Champions! :banana::rock::smoothcriminal::rock::banana:

eace:


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

darkhelmit54 said:


> is anyone secretly hoping they do very well over the next couple of years and make the rivalry that much bigger.


No. I hope the Lakers get blown out by the Blazers for the next 10 years. But maybe that's just me. :yay:


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

NewAgeBaller said:


> ..and then you lose to the Miami Heat - 2009 NBA Champions! :banana::rock::smoothcriminal::rock::banana:
> 
> eace:


Are the other 14 teams in the Eastern Conference going to fold, and the best players left go to Miami?


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## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

Circle this date on your calendar.

You see, I agree with Talkhard. Amazing, my fingers didn't fall off when I typed that.

I don't secretly or overtly want the Lakers to be good, great, or even mediocre. I want them to be terrible. I want them to go 0-82. I want them to be blown out and to lose one point heartbreakers. I want them to lose in every way it is possible to lose a basketball game. I want them to play before small crowds. I want them to be booed mercilessly on their home court. I don't want a rivalry of equals, I want a butt-kicking. I even would be OK with them having off-court issues as long as they don't involve hurting others (dope charges OK, rape charges not OK).

The only thing I don't wish for is injuries, because even a Laker is covered by my humanism. I don't want to see any human physically harmed. Kicked out of office, yes, maybe put on trial but not harmed. (So maybe Talkhard and I don't agree. The world is still on its axis.)


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## B-Roy (Feb 12, 2008)

ZOMG, no Iggy/Miller!


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## LameR (Jan 4, 2004)

B-Roy said:


> ZOMG, no Iggy/Miller!


:clap::lol:


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

crandc said:


> Circle this date on your calendar.
> 
> You see, I agree with Talkhard. Amazing, my fingers didn't fall off when I typed that.


I've see this happen before... ya'll do share a common interest!


> The only thing I don't wish for is injuries, because even a Laker is covered by my humanism. I don't want to see any human physically harmed. Kicked out of office, yes, maybe put on trial but not harmed.


yeah, I hate them when the game is on, but I'm truly sad to see Bynum suffering serious injuries and setbacks. It reminds me of all the other great young talents that had their promising careers derailed (Sabas, Bowie, Walton, Sampson, David Thompson, etc...). 

STOMP


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Hap said:


> Are the other 14 teams in the Eastern Conference going to fold, and the best players left go to Miami?


Nah, you can have em. Stern'll find another way.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

No!!!!!!!


**** the Lakers and their fans. I hate that team and hope they flounder in their piss colored uniforms. 

The only thing worse than the pornographic avatars of some people are the Laker ones


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## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

The Lakers finished first in the tough western conference and are making a very real championship run without their budding young star center . . . and you hope they get better?

The Blazers will have a tough enough time trying to knock off the Lakers as it is . . . if anyone needs Calderon(or some young solid PG) it is the Blazers not the Lakers.


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## SodaPopinski (Aug 10, 2004)

**** the Lakers. I want them to lose every game they play in. I don't need them to be good to enhance the rivalry. I hate them with a passion and always will.

-Pop


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## GrandpaBlaze (Jul 11, 2004)

The Lakers are already very good. As I look at the Western conference over the next few years, I see two top-tier teams that will likely stay that way right now; the Lakers and Hornets and I believe the Jazz are not far off that level and Houston if they can manage to keep both TMax and Yao healthy for an entire year (or at least for the playoffs).

The Blazers have quite a hill to climb to get into Lakers/Hornets territory and I hope, but don't necessarily expect, them to be in the Jazz/Rockets category next year.

What scares me about the Lakers is how well they are doing now without Bynum who is quite the talent and will make them an even better team. Looking our big 3 vs. the Lakers big 3, I'd give the Lakers the advantage at every position.

Kobe vs. Roy - Advantage Kobe
Bynum vs. Oden - Advantage Bynum (he's proven himself, Oden is unknown)
this may change but for now, I'd give Bynum the edge
Pau vs. LMA - Pau is more established and polished. Again, it may change
but for now, Pau has the edge

Should be good over the next few years.

Gramps...


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## chris_in_pdx (Jul 11, 2004)

I'll never NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER root for the Lakers, under any circumstances.


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## SabasRevenge! (Apr 20, 2008)

A great rivalry would be fun but it would be even more fun if the L*kers missed the playoffs every year for the rest of their existence, Bynum turned into Jerome James, and Kobe pulled a Marbury.

If Toronto is stupid enough to trade Calderon for Odom I hope Calderon plays so terribly the L*ker fans yearn for Smush Parker. Oh wait, if the Lakers are losing most of their fans will go into hiding until they're contenders again anyways...


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

This thread is awesome


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

GrandpaBlaze said:


> Looking our big 3 vs. the Lakers big 3, I'd give the Lakers the advantage at every position.
> 
> Kobe vs. Roy - Advantage Kobe
> Bynum vs. Oden - Advantage Bynum (he's proven himself, Oden is unknown) this may change but for now, I'd give Bynum the edge
> *Pau vs. LMA - Pau is more established and polished. Again, it may change but for now, Pau has the edge*


not based on their head to head matchups he doesn't. They met up 5 times this year... 3 times since Pau became a Laker

LA averaged 40 MPG, 24 PPG on 53%, 8.6 RBs, 1.2 ASST, 1.8 STLS, 1.4 BLKS 
PG averaged 37 MPG, 17 PPG on 52%, 10.0 RBs, 2.6 ASST, 0.2 STLS, 1.0 BLKS 

and you don't make a convincing argument for Bynum. Others are free to form their own opinions and all, but Oden is hardly unknown to most of us. Given health for both, I'm pretty positive this will be the overwhelming view come this time next year. Greg is a freak of nature with the strength and explosiveness to make Bynum look average. 

STOMP


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

STOMP said:


> Greg is a freak of nature with the strength and explosiveness to make Bynum look average.


amazes me how some blazer fans have such low of an expectation for oden. this is a guy that many agreed was the best big man prospect to come into the nba in years. 

bynum played well for a month and a half, and he wasn't even dominating. he played well for a month and a half. he's not much more proven than oden.

i don't think it will be quite the same as when shaq dominated sabonis, but oden will make bynum's life hell any time they meet. i'd bet on it.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

crandc said:


> Circle this date on your calendar.
> 
> You see, I agree with Talkhard. Amazing, my fingers didn't fall off when I typed that.
> 
> ...


The NBA would never let that happen.


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

darkhelmit54 said:


> but I'm secretly hoping that the Lakers are able to pick up Calderon this summer...


you're crazy. 

without adding calderon, who's absolutely a stud at pg, the lakers are already the better team. they have great depth as well. if you actually want a real rivalry between us and the lakers, you'd be wishing to add calderon on our team.


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## angrypuppy (Jul 5, 2005)

Assuming they'll both make successful recoveries, Oden will be the better of the two on defense, perhaps even a dominant defender. Bynum is a good defender, but what separates them is that Bynum is more skilled on offense. Prior to injury, he was showing back to the basket moves, as well as sound decision-making, court vision and passing.


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

angrypuppy said:


> Bynum is a good defender, but what separates them is that Bynum is more skilled on offense. Prior to injury, he was showing back to the basket moves, as well as sound decision-making, court vision and passing.


even in his older years, sabonis was also more skilled than shaq on offense, but that didn't stopped shaq from dominating sabonis. athletically, bynum is nowhere near oden, imo. like shaq, i think oden will use his strength and athleticism to overwhelm his defenders rather than using refined offensive moves.


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## maxiep (May 7, 2003)

My position is that it is my hope we're the last team the Lakers play season in and season out, and without our existance, they would have won 15 championships in a row. Except we do exist, and they have to live with being second best.

I'm an old dude, and I can still remember how sweet it was to sweep the Lakers (I've been warned I can't call them the Fake Show, which blows my mind) in 1977 when they were the #1 seed. On the flip side, I remember 1991 like it was yesterday and I can't even begin to write about 2000. Nothing stings like second place.

We seem to have the Lakers' number without Oden. I look forward to a decade and a half of excuses why they can't get by us.


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## angrypuppy (Jul 5, 2005)

BuckW4GM said:


> even in his older years, sabonis was also more skilled than shaq on offense, but that didn't stopped shaq from dominating sabonis. athletically, bynum is nowhere near oden, imo. like shaq, i think oden will use his strength and athleticism to overwhelm his defenders rather than using refined offensive moves.




I don't see Oden and Shaq as near comparables, not in terms of projected strength for Oden, and certainly not in terms of skill on the low post. Shaq had great footwork, Oden does not. That doesn't mean Oden can't get there... but you could say that for many promising big men.


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## blazerboy30 (Apr 30, 2003)

angrypuppy said:


> but what separates them is that Bynum is more skilled on offense. Prior to injury, he was showing back to the basket moves, as well as sound decision-making, court vision and passing.


Hmmm. I don't know about this. Greg has been pretty impressive with his post skills, footwork, and array of moves. He also has an amazing left hand that he developed for an entire year in college. He has a great shooting touch, as shown by his great free throw shooting. 

It will be fun to watch, that's for sure.


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## ebott (Jan 7, 2003)

Hell no!!!!!!!!!!

Just like I was happy when I heard Magic Johnson had the HIV I will be happy at every negative thing that happens to the Lakers. The more the better. If there was a terrorist attack on the Staples center during a Lakers game I would be overjoyed. Especially in this series. It would be great to see the Jazz go down with them.

There is no Lakers / Blazers rivalry.

What there is, is a long history of them kicking our ***.

A rivalry needs to be two sided.

What we have is us hating them. That doesn't count as a rivalry. We're not even in the same division any more. That's how little the NBA thinks of the rivalry. If there was a real rivalry we would have stayed in the same division.


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## GrandpaBlaze (Jul 11, 2004)

BuckW4GM said:


> amazes me how some blazer fans have such low of an expectation for oden. this is a guy that many agreed was the best big man prospect to come into the nba in years.
> 
> bynum played well for a month and a half, and he wasn't even dominating. he played well for a month and a half. he's not much more proven than oden.
> 
> i don't think it will be quite the same as when shaq dominated sabonis, but oden will make bynum's life hell any time they meet. i'd bet on it.


I don't disagree that Oden will be great and will likely dominate Bynum. Bynum was pretty darn raw when he came into the league and I've seen tremendous improvement in him and I think he will be pretty darn good. As good as Oden? I seriously doubt it but until Oden has done more than be hyped, Bynum, to me, is more of a proven commodity.

Gramps...


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

darkhelmit54 said:


> is anyone secretly hoping they do very well over the next couple of years and make the rivalry that much bigger.


No.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

BuckW4GM said:


> *amazes me how some blazer fans have such low of an expectation for oden.* this is a guy that many agreed was the best big man prospect to come into the nba in years.
> 
> bynum played well for a month and a half, and he wasn't even dominating. he played well for a month and a half. he's not much more proven than oden.
> 
> i don't think it will be quite the same as when shaq dominated sabonis, but oden will make bynum's life hell any time they meet. i'd bet on it.


:lol::lol::lol::lol: So is this your first post on this POR forum or amazing sarcasm?


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

BuckW4GM said:


> even in his older years, sabonis was also more skilled than shaq on offense, but that didn't stopped shaq from dominating sabonis. athletically, bynum is nowhere near oden, imo. like shaq, i think oden will use his strength and athleticism to overwhelm his defenders rather than using refined offensive moves.


You never saw Shaq at 19 or 20 if you're seriously comparing Oden to him as an athlete or in terms of strength, hands, or even skillset (foot work, touch). Shaq at 20 was physically unequaled in all of NBA history (including Oden), save for maybe The Stilt himself.


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## B-Roy (Feb 12, 2008)

DaRizzle said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol: So is this your first post on this POR forum or amazing sarcasm?


Isn't it a bit hypocritical for a Laker fan to be saying this?


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Maybe, but it doesnt make it any less true for you guys...If you have followed what people here usually think then you know that comment is the furthest thing from the truth.
At least Laker fans that pump up Bynum (like myself) at least have actual NBA play by Bynum to somewhat justify it.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

EHL said:


> You never saw Shaq at 19 or 20 if you're seriously comparing Oden to him as an athlete or in terms of strength, hands, or even skillset (foot work, touch). Shaq at 20 was physically unequaled in all of NBA history (including Oden), save for maybe The Stilt himself.


Shaq wasn't exactly that great at footwork or touch when he first came into the league. He used brute strength more than anything else. It wasn't until after he got abused by Hakeem that he altered his game to include more than just barreling into players.

Their freshman #'s are actually similar, cept that Oden scored more and rebounded (a lot) less.


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

EHL said:


> You never saw Shaq at 19 or 20 if you're seriously comparing Oden to him as an athlete or in terms of strength, hands, or even skillset (foot work, touch). Shaq at 20 was physically unequaled in all of NBA history (including Oden), save for maybe The Stilt himself.


you're right, i did not see shaq played when he was a freshman and sophomre at lsu. i did saw him played a few times as a junior.

looking at their measurement numbers, shaq is 2 inches taller than oden. shaq weighed in at 303 lbs. in his predraft measurement, after he came out of lsu as a junior. as a freshman, oden played at 275 lbs. in his final month at osu. so the numbers favor shaq in term of size. i would also give the edge to shaq in term of strength, but not by much. watching the video clips when shaq played at lsu, especially during his freshman season, their size looks very similar to me. as far as athleticism, i'd say they're very comparable.

looking at both of their stats as a freshman, oden's stats compare favorably to shaq's as well. this is after oden played his entire freshman season with his right hand in a cast.

i'm not saying i'm expecting oden to be as good as shaq. although, i'm betting that oden will be closer to shaq than bynum to oden.


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

DaRizzle said:


> :lol::lol::lol::lol: So is this your first post on this POR forum or amazing sarcasm?


i have no idea why you find it to be so amusing. i was responding after i read a couple of portland posters thought that rudy fernandez (24th pick last season) will have more of an impact than oden will in their rookie season. another poster thought that bynum would have an edge over oden.

i disagreed on both accounts. i think that is selling oden way short.


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

Hap said:


> Shaq wasn't exactly that great at footwork or touch when he first came into the league. He used brute strength more than anything else.


exactly! shaq's game was all bruth strength earlier on. he didn't even developed an effective hook shot until his 3rd season, iirc. oden already can use the hook with both hands. as far as having better touch around the basket, that easily goes to oden, imo.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

BuckW4GM said:


> i have no idea why you find it to be so amusing.


People on here think he is the second coming of Jesus, they might be right, who knows...

Maybe he didnt get pumped up in this particular thread but overall the story on him is the 2nd coming of Jesus


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

DaRizzle said:


> People on here think he is the second coming of Jesus, they might be right, who knows...


i didn't see that, so you'll have to excuse me.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

no prob :cheers:


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

DaRizzle said:


> People on here think he is the second coming of Jesus, they might be right, who knows...
> 
> Maybe he didnt get pumped up in this particular thread but overall the story on him is the 2nd coming of Jesus


Good point, everyone knows the 2nd coming of Jesus was Kobe.


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## B-Roy (Feb 12, 2008)

DaRizzle said:


> *People on here think he is the second coming of Jesus, they might be right, who knows...*
> 
> Maybe he didnt get pumped up in this particular thread but overall the story on him is the 2nd coming of Jesus


This quote is inherantly wrong. Jesus never came the first time.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

^Yeah, thats another can of worms Im not about to go into


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## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

DaRizzle said:


> People on here think he is the second coming of Jesus, they might be right, who knows...
> 
> Maybe he didnt get pumped up in this particular thread but overall the story on him is the 2nd coming of Jesus


Well, I'm Jewish, so that's one thing for sure I don't think!

BTW, NO, I was NOT happy when Magic Johnson got HIV. That is not someone I wish on anyone.

Look, I'd be happy if the Lakers never win another game and Kobe Bryant is mercilessly booed on his home floor. But I don't want Bryant thrown in prison and tortured for a crime he did not commit, I don't want his wife raped, his kids starving. OK? There is a difference between "sports hate" and really wishing serious ill on someone and please, let's keep some perspective. 

Just go 0-82 and I'm happy.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

DaRizzle said:


> Maybe, but it doesnt make it any less true for you guys...If you have followed what people here usually think then you know that comment is the furthest thing from the truth.
> At least Laker fans that pump up Bynum (like myself) at least have actual NBA play by Bynum to somewhat justify it.


my opinion of Greg didn't change when Portland won the lotto and trust me there were lots of posters here who were adamant believers based on seeing him destroying college ball as a freshman with limited use of his dominant hand. There were also lots of the so called "experts" comparing him to legends like Shaq and Russell while he was in HS where he was the two time national player of the year. 

If you want to hang your hat on only NBA games thats fine, but I'm very comfortable calling it as I see it based on what I've seen and know about him. I know he's huge, fast, and explosive like few Bigs in the history of the game. I know he's got soft hands and good coordination. I know he has had solid coaching growing up and great all around fundamentals in place including shooting. I know he's got great feel for blocking shots. I know he's been working his butt off. 

I'll stick to my comparison of Daugherty and Hakeem for these two talented young Bigs.

STOMP


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## GOD (Jun 22, 2003)

DaRizzle said:


> People on here think he is the second coming of Jesus, they might be right, who knows...











...


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

game set match :lol: ....too good


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

BuckW4GM said:


> you're right, i did not see shaq played when he was a freshman and sophomre at lsu. i did saw him played a few times as a junior.
> 
> looking at their measurement numbers, shaq is 2 inches taller than oden. shaq weighed in at 303 lbs. in his predraft measurement, after he came out of lsu as a junior. as a freshman, oden played at 275 lbs. in his final month at osu. so the numbers favor shaq in term of size. i would also give the edge to shaq in term of strength, but not by much. watching the video clips when shaq played at lsu, especially during his freshman season, their size looks very similar to me. as far as athleticism, i'd say they're very comparable.
> 
> ...


Shaq at LSU was a monster as a teenager. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ih2EnUeCyU 

At the age of 18 and 19 years old he was averaging 26ppg/14rpg/2apg/4bpg at LSU. Oden averaged a respectable 16ppg/10rpg/1apg/3bpg, nowhere near Shaq's LSU numbers. The numbers, in this case, tell the story. 



Hap said:


> Shaq wasn't exactly that great at footwork or touch when he first came into the league. He used brute strength more than anything else. It wasn't until after he got abused by Hakeem that he altered his game to include more than just barreling into players.
> 
> Their freshman #'s are actually similar, cept that Oden scored more and rebounded (a lot) less.


Just the opposite actually happened, though; Shaq was slender coming into the league compared to what he was in, say, the late 90's early 00's, when he did nothing but barrel and use his great agility for his size to get his points. Just the opposite when he was younger; lots of good change of direction, his footwork was still superb as a young guy, and he absolutely had touch around the basket. Hakeem had nothing to do with any change in Shaq's game. Shaq got bigger and stronger at the behest of Phil Jackson during the summer of 1999.


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

EHL said:


> Shaq at LSU was a monster as a teenager. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ih2EnUeCyU


thanks for the link to that youtube video, but i've seen it. would you like me to link you to a video of oden being a monster at osu?



> At the age of 18 and 19 years old he was averaging 26ppg/14rpg/2apg/4bpg at LSU. Oden averaged a respectable 16ppg/10rpg/1apg/3bpg, nowhere near Shaq's LSU numbers.


why did you ignored the part where i compared *oden's freshman stats* to *o'neal's freshman stats*? that's the only stats that can be compared since oden stayed only 1 year at osu.

o'neal's stats as a freshman at lsu: 13.9 pts, 12 rebs, 3.6 blks. like i said, very comparable to oden's stats as a freshman at osu. with oden's good hand in a cast for almost the entire season..

here's the link to o'neal's freshman stats for you:
http://www.lsusports.net/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=5200&ATCLID=174841



> The numbers, in this case, tell the story.


no, the numbers, in this case, shows that your argument is weak and you're misrepresenting the numbers to help argue your point.


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

EHL said:


> Just the opposite when he was younger; lots of good change of direction, his footwork was still superb as a young guy, and he *absolutely had touch around the basket*. Hakeem had nothing to do with any change in Shaq's game.


if you mean dunking the ball, then yes, shaq had great touch around the baskets when he entered the league. please. shaq couldn't make a shot any time he was 8 feet and out of the basket area. he later developed an effective hook, but early on it was dunks and layups.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

When the **** did this become a Laker forum?


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

There are obviously a lot of comparable things about young Shaq and Greg... Oneil was bigger while Greg is a better run/jump athlete but they were/are both physically dominating beasts on the low block. But one important aspect of their games is not comparable at all. Shaq's Achilles Heal has always been his pathetic FT shooting... he's shot 52% for his career. Greg shot 65% percent as freshman at OSU using his left hand... 80% as a senior in HS using his right. 

Imagine what Shaq would have averaged in his career if he was an 80% FT shooter. Not only would he have made all those FTs he missed, but his team would have been able to pass him the ball in tight games in the 4th... heck they might have had him converting Sheed's T's :biggrin: 

STOMP


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

BuckW4GM said:


> i have no idea why you find it to be so amusing. i was responding after i read a couple of portland posters thought that rudy fernandez (24th pick last season) will have more of an impact than oden will in their rookie season. another poster thought that bynum would have an edge over oden.
> 
> i disagreed on both accounts. i think that is selling oden way short.


So DaRizzle, I don't know if you'll find this one but, I'm one of those posters to whom Buck's referring regarding Oden and Fernandez. The core of my argument had been that I thought (and think) that Fernandez will be more of an improvement over Jack than Oden will be over Frye or Przybilla, at least in the first half of the season. Buck and others mostly convinced me otherwise, pointing out that the team's three greatest needs are points in the paint, defensive around the basket, and rebounding, all of which Oden should improve.

Comparing Oden to Howard, Oden's already a much better free-throw shooter, even with his off hand. Because of points like that, I'm optimistic that Oden may well be a better player than Howard eventually, though clearly Howard is better now and there's decent odds that he remains better over their careers.

And, as several other posters have said recently, it seems to me that all the player movement we've seen the last decade plus weakens the game, particularly when it's big names moving so relatively regularly. With that, it also seems like some posters ask "would you trade X for Y?" when at least part of what they mean is "do you think X is a better player than Y?" or something like that. I'm pretty well at the point where my default is to say no on trades not so much because I'm "over-valuing" current Blazers as because I'm tired of all the roster movement. Does that make sense to you? Do others feel similarly?

As for the thread topic, I can see both sides. I like a good rivalry but, as others have pointed out, it's not really much of a rivalry unless: A) both teams are pretty good in the same windows and B) both win it all (or at least against each other) pretty regularly. Much as I hate to say it, the Lakers have pretty well owned the Blazers since, oh... the late 70s? I'm hoping that's about to change.

It also seems like the Lakers are something like the Yankees in baseball. Both teams have a lot of advantages over other teams in terms of free agency and the like. Likewise, both win far too often.  So from that perspective, I'm largely with Cran, TH, MM, and the others in looking forward to down times for the Lakers (without wishing injury to anyone, Lakers players, fans, etc. included).

That said, that seems like a prett fruitless wish, and, while I'd _prefer_ the Blazers main rivals over the next decade plus be teams like the Jazz and Hornets, I'll take my good rivalries where I can find them, and that's almost certain to be with the Lakers. Hopefully we can hold up our end better this decade than we have in the last several. :cheers:


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

EHL said:


> Shaq at LSU was a monster as a teenager. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ih2EnUeCyU
> 
> At the age of 18 and 19 years old he was averaging 26ppg/14rpg/2apg/4bpg at LSU. Oden averaged a respectable 16ppg/10rpg/1apg/3bpg, nowhere near Shaq's LSU numbers. The numbers, in this case, tell the story.
> 
> ...


Shaq is Dead.

Long Live Oden.


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## blazerboy30 (Apr 30, 2003)

EHL said:


> Shaq at LSU was a monster as a teenager. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ih2EnUeCyU


Did you link to that to prove Shaq is a lot better than Oden? If it weren't for the jersey, that may have well been Oden.




EHL said:


> At the age of 18 and 19 years old he was averaging 26ppg/14rpg/2apg/4bpg at LSU. Oden averaged a respectable 16ppg/10rpg/1apg/3bpg, nowhere near Shaq's LSU numbers. The numbers, in this case, tell the story.


I can compare apples to oranges too...

Shaq averaged 13 ppg and 9 rpg this year. Clearly Oden will be the better player. :biggrin:


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

PorterIn2004 said:


> And, as several other posters have said recently, it seems to me that all the player movement we've seen the last decade plus weakens the game, particularly when it's big names moving so relatively regularly. With that, it also seems like some posters ask "would you trade X for Y?" when at least part of what they mean is "do you think X is a better player than Y?" or something like that. I'm pretty well at the point where my default is to say no on trades not so much because I'm "over-valuing" current Blazers as because I'm tired of all the roster movement. Does that make sense to you? Do others feel similarly?


Great post. Good points, I thought the paragraph above was well thought out and I agree with it.


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## TLo (Dec 27, 2006)

I'd rather see the Sonics stay in Seattle.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

Thanks DaRizzle. And yeah, TLo, it'll be a huge bummer if the Sonics actually leave, if for no other reason that it would mean that _all_ of the Blazers road games would involve significant travel, as opposed to, say, the California-based teams.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

BuckW4GM said:


> why did you ignored the part where i compared *oden's freshman stats* to *o'neal's freshman stats*? that's the only stats that can be compared since oden stayed only 1 year at osu.
> 
> o'neal's stats as a freshman at lsu: 13.9 pts, 12 rebs, 3.6 blks. like i said, very comparable to oden's stats as a freshman at osu. with oden's good hand in a cast for almost the entire season..


Nope, age and ability matter far more than experience and at the same age Shaq was by far the better player without question. Oden won't sniff those numbers, college or NBA. 

And you can't use the injury excuse, as Oden has been very injury-prone his entire young career, while Shaq wasn't. That's a huge disadvantage for Oden in comparison to Shaq, who was very healthy during his college career and his first few years in the NBA. 



> no, the numbers, in this case, shows that your argument is weak and you're misrepresenting the numbers to help argue your point.


Not if you're a thinking fan.



BuckW4GM said:


> if you mean dunking the ball, then yes, shaq had great touch around the baskets when he entered the league. please. shaq couldn't make a shot any time he was 8 feet and out of the basket area. he later developed an effective hook, but early on it was dunks and layups.


Oden can't make anything outside of 8 feet on a consistent basis so I'm not sure what your point is there. It's OK to admit you're a kid, you obviously never saw the dude play with the Magic. Hell, his first NBA basket was a fade-way jumper near the FT-line. He absolutely had touch early; you don't need to be a jump shooter to have touch.


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## Sonny-Canzano (Oct 20, 2007)

Oden is a different player than Shaq. He's all about defense. He's more of a Nate Thurmond/Bill Russell type of Center. 

Oden's freshman year is very comparable to Shaq's, btw. Greg also put up those numbers with a hard cast on his shooting hand for a majority of the season. We saw what Oden can do with both hands in the National Title game, where he made Noah/Horford look like little children.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Sonny-Canzano said:


> Oden is a different player than Shaq. He's all about defense.


:thand:

Talk to the hand. Yes Shaq was dominant on offense...just like he was on D. I have no idea how Shaq never won DPOY...
:cheers:


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

EHL said:


> Oden can't make anything outside of 8 feet on a consistent basis so I'm not sure what your point is there. It's OK to admit you're a kid, you obviously never saw the dude play with the Magic. Hell, his first NBA basket was a fade-way jumper near the FT-line. He absolutely had touch early; you don't need to be a jump shooter to have touch.


what a load of bleep. Thinking fan? Admit you're a kid? Can't make a shot outside of 8'... not only insulting but ignorant. How far is the free throw line again? You're in for a real eye opening experience next season.

This board is filled with young and old and plenty of both are taking issue with your nonsense. Personally I saw many of Shaq's college games... _all dude did was dunk_ isn't true of every shot he took, but was 90+% of the shots he made. 

STOMP


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## blazerboy30 (Apr 30, 2003)

EHL said:


> Hell, his first NBA basket was a fade-way jumper near the FT-line. He absolutely had touch early


That's too bad he completely lost his "touch" after his first NBA basket.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

STOMP said:


> what a load of bleep. Thinking fan? Admit you're a kid? Can't make a shot outside of 8'... not only insulting but ignorant. How far is the free throw line again? You're in for a real eye opening experience next season.
> 
> This board is filled with young and old and plenty of both are taking issue with your nonsense. Personally I saw many of Shaq's college games... _all dude did was dunk_ isn't true of every shot he took, but was 90+% of the shots he made.
> 
> STOMP


That's nice, I wasn't just talking about Shaq's college career, I was responding to someone else's claims about his abilities in a Magic uniform early in his career. Follow the conversation closely.


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

EHL said:


> Nope, age and ability matter far more than experience and at the same age Shaq was by far the better player without question.


shaq was a whole 10 months younger than oden as a freshman. 

you have to play to produce. the only year oden played at the collegiate level was during his freshman year at osu. as freshmen, shaq's and oden's productions were equal.

since there isn't a whole lot of difference in their age, productions at the same competitive level and experience is a lot more telling to me.



> Oden won't sniff those numbers, college or NBA.


we know what is for certain: oden won't ever sniff those numbers in college. why? it's because oden only played 1 year in college. it took shaq more than a year of college ball to get those numbers.

so why again are we comparing apples to oranges? 

another thing we know for certain: shaq won't ever take his college team to the finals of the ncaa tournament.

does that apple taste the same as an orange to you?



> And you can't use the injury excuse, as Oden has been very injury-prone his entire young career, while Shaq wasn't. That's a huge disadvantage for Oden in comparison to Shaq, who was very healthy during his college career and his first few years in the NBA.


it's not an excuse. the fact is: oden produced those numbers while being limited in using his good hand. 

we are trying to compare shaq's and oden's skill set at the collegiate level. it's important to note that oden could not use his good hand fully.

i never argued that shaq wasn't more durable than oden in his early years, or that durability is not an advantage. quit using strawman to argue your points.



> Oden can't make anything outside of 8 feet on a consistent basis so I'm not sure what your point is there.


wow.

at what point, in that quote that you quoted me, did i said anything about *oden* making shots outside of 8 feet? my point was simply: early in his career, shaq's offense was all very close in the basket area. nothing outside of 8 feet. as of now, oden's offense is the same way. they are/were both athletic freaks that overwhelmed their defenders with size, strength, and superior athletic ability on offense rather than refined offensive skills.



> It's OK to admit you're a kid, you obviously never saw the dude play with the Magic.


in my 30's, and i watched quite a few of the magic's games when shaq played there. 

it's ok to admit that you're full of it and simply quit this debate already, though. in any case, i'm ashamed of myself for wasting the time debating you. i'm done after this.



> Hell, his first NBA basket was a fade-way jumper near the FT-line. He absolutely had touch early; you don't need to be a jump shooter to have touch.


shaq made a 3 pointer, too. should we say that he had range out to the 3 point line?


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

BuckW4GM said:


> shaq made a 3 pointer, too. should we say that he had range out to the 3 point line?


Come now, Buck, we all know that Shaq was and _is_ as dangerous from the three point line and the foul line as from anywhere else on the floor. The only question is dangerous for which team.


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## Sonny-Canzano (Oct 20, 2007)

Back to the topic at hand. anyone else think Bynum could have lingering knee problems because he has extremely knocked knees? This is the first knee cap dislocation I've seen in the NBA in a long time and first time I can remember happening to a 7-footer. His knees are knocked the same way Manute Bol's were.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

BuckW4GM said:


> shaq was a whole 10 months younger than oden as a freshman.
> 
> you have to play to produce. the only year oden played at the collegiate level was during his freshman year at osu. as freshmen, shaq's and oden's productions were equal.


At the same age Shaq's numbers dwarfed Oden's. This is fact you'll have to deal with. 



> since there isn't a whole lot of difference in their age, productions at the same competitive level and experience is a lot more telling to me.


Not if you're honest and admit that Oden wasn't going to be putting up 26/15/2/5 like Shaq did. 



> we know what is for certain: oden won't ever sniff those numbers in college. why? it's because oden only played 1 year in college. it took shaq more than a year of college ball to get those numbers.
> 
> so why again are we comparing apples to oranges?
> 
> ...


If team success were relevant we'd be talking about Oden's rookie season in the NBA, where he took his team nowhere by playing zero games. Is it getting through yet or is crayon necessary?



> it's not an excuse. the fact is: oden produced those numbers while being limited in using his good hand.
> 
> we are trying to compare shaq's and oden's skill set at the collegiate level. it's important to note that oden could not use his good hand fully.
> 
> i never argued that shaq wasn't more durable than oden in his early years, or that durability is not an advantage. quit using strawman to argue your points.


Your injury statement is pure, 100% excuse-making _because_ Oden has never been healthy his entire collegiate or professional career. Not for one full season, ever. Unlike Shaq. I'd buy your reasoning of Oden's bad hand at OSU if Oden were ever actually healthy. But he hasn't been, so we have zero reason to believe he'll kick the injury bug until he proves otherwise. That's why it's an excuse. 



> wow.
> 
> at what point, in that quote that you quoted me, did i said anything about *oden* making shots outside of 8 feet?


If you had read carefully and thoroughly you would have noticed nowhere did I claim you said any such thing. 



> my point was simply: early in his career, shaq's offense was all very close in the basket area. nothing outside of 8 feet. as of now, oden's offense is the same way. they are/were both athletic freaks that overwhelmed their defenders with size, strength, and superior athletic ability on offense rather than refined offensive skills.


Except Shaq was dominant beyond belief and far more skilled and, yes, athletically gifted/strong than Oden has ever been. The sooner you accept this the better you'll look come the 2008-2009 season when Oden proves me right. Of course, Oden can still be a fantastic player. He just won't ever be Shaquille O'Neal. 




> i'm done after this.


You were done the moment you compared Oden to Shaq. 



> shaq made a 3 pointer, too. should we say that he had range out to the 3 point line?


Nope, it was an off-hand comment that you can ignore if you like.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Sonny-Canzano said:


> Back to the topic at hand. anyone else think Bynum could have lingering knee problems because he has extremely knocked knees? This is the first knee cap dislocation I've seen in the NBA in a long time and first time I can remember happening to a 7-footer. His knees are knocked the same way Manute Bol's were.


Probably not, he played a full 82 game season and had played 100+ straight games before his dislocating it. Plus he never had any issues with his knees in the NBA before that.


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

EHL said:


> At the same age Shaq's numbers dwarfed Oden's. This is fact you'll have to deal with.


don't know why i bother anymore, but what the hell...

here's fact for you:
shaq's stats as a freshman and being *10 months younger * than oden: 13.9 pts, 12 rebs, 3.6 blks
oden's stats as a freshman and being *10 months older* than shaq: 15.7 pts, 9.6 rebs, 3.3 blks

i don't know how i can make it more simpler for you, but this is _all_ the numbers that we have to compare oden to o'neal so far.

at THIS point during their careers, even taking in the 10 months difference in age, how you can say that o'neal is the "much better player without question" is beyond me.



> Not if you're honest and admit that Oden wasn't going to be putting up 26/15/2/5 like Shaq did.


i can be completely honest and say that i don't know if oden would put up those numbers or not had he stay another year in college.

obviously, shaq's numbers improved a lot from his freshman to sophomore year. but if you somehow have the power to know that oden wouldn't have been able to improve the same way as shaq did, you'd be better off focusing your power predicting next week powerball numbers. 



> If team success were relevant we'd be talking about Oden's rookie season in the NBA, where he took his team nowhere by playing zero games. Is it getting through yet or is crayon necessary?


now you're just rambling on...

but since you seem to have the power to manipulate space-time, imagine this scenario: oden accomplished what he accomplished during his freshman year at the same timeframe as shaq's freshman year.

you're looking at oden's stats (16, 10, 3), being the best player on a team that went to the finals of the ncaa tournament. shaq's stats (14, 12, 4), being the best player on a team that went nowhere in the ncaa tournament. shaq is 10 months younger than oden and is 2 inches taller. athleticism is about the same.

if they both declare for the draft that year, who would go ahead of who? at best, my guess is slight advantage to shaq going ahead of oden. certainly not as you suggest that o'neal was the much better prospect at the time. 



> Your injury statement is pure, 100% excuse-making _because_ Oden has never been healthy his entire collegiate or professional career. Not for one full season, ever. Unlike Shaq. I'd buy your reasoning of Oden's bad hand at OSU if Oden were ever actually healthy. But he hasn't been, so we have zero reason to believe he'll kick the injury bug until he proves otherwise. That's why it's an excuse.


what part of injury and ability can't you differentiate? 

if kobe broke his hands and can't use it for a period of time, does it mean he totally lost his shooting ability and that some random schmuck is a better shooter? sure, for the time that he can't use his hands kobe would be one of the worst shooter on the planet. but his ability to shoot would still be there once his hands are completely healed.

we know that oden's good hand is his right hand. for almost his entire freshman season, his right hand was in a cast and he had to shoot with his left hand. he was able to fully use his right hand during his final game, and he put up great numbers against a frontline of 3 nba lottery prospects.

oden injured his hand is not the same as if his hand was chopped off. got it?



> If you had read carefully and thoroughly you would have noticed nowhere did I claim you said any such thing.


right. then my point was simple enough for you to understand, yet you asked what point i was making. i said shaq's offense was non-existence outside of 8 feet. this had nothing to do with oden. i never said oden's offense was differently.



> Except Shaq was dominant beyond belief and far more skilled and, yes, athletically gifted/strong than Oden has ever been.


fine, if that's what you see. 

as for shaq being a "much better player without question" at the (approx.) same age, i believe i've already made a solid case why that isn't true. 



> The sooner you accept this the better you'll look come the 2008-2009 season when Oden proves me right. Of course, Oden can still be a fantastic player. He just won't ever be Shaquille O'Neal.


i'm more interested if you can prove to me you can predict next week powerball numbers. how's bout it?

as for will oden ever be as good as shaq, i already said i doubt that he will. any big man prospects, no matter their physical ability and skills, are unlikely to be as good as shaq. it takes too many things to go right, including luck, to have a career like shaq.

this does not mean that oden doesn't have shaq-like potential.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

This is gonna be an interesting thread to come back to in a year's time.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

EHL said:


> At the same age Shaq's numbers dwarfed Oden's. This is fact you'll have to deal with.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One of the worst posts in a long time.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

> don't know why i bother anymore, but what the hell...
> 
> here's fact for you:
> shaq's stats as a freshman and being 10 months younger than oden: 13.9 pts, 12 rebs, 3.6 blks
> ...


exactly. LOL. at least he is trying...


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## GOD (Jun 22, 2003)

The only thing that EHL seemed to have right is that even though Oden is extremely athletically gifted, Shaq was a tad more gifted. I am drawing this conclusion based on pre-draft measurements. Shaq had a max vert of 35 compared to 34 for Oden, but weighed 46 more pounds. That 35" vert is simply amazing considering he weighed a whopping 303lbs. But, there is no player in the recent past that more closely resembles Odens ability than Shaq, and even though I think Shaq was a tad better at the time and was an incredible player in his prime, Oden also has a few things in his favor that Shaq did not. Oden has a better FT% by a mile, and word is that this year in practice his shooting sroke was really nice out to 15'. Also, Oden has not shown the propensity to be fat like shaq did. For example, in the pre-draft measurements, shaq's body fat % was 12.2, but Oden's was a very low 7.8. I think it is likely that Oden will never be as good as Shaq, but I do think that he will be close. Oden will still be a monster and the best center in the NBA if he can stay healthy.


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

GOD said:


> The only thing that EHL seemed to have right is that even though Oden is extremely athletically gifted, Shaq was a tad more gifted. I am drawing this conclusion based on pre-draft measurements. Shaq had a max vert of 35 compared to 34 for Oden, but weighed 46 more pounds. That 35" vert is simply amazing considering he weighed a whopping 303lbs. But, there is no player in the recent past that more closely resembles Odens ability than Shaq, and even though I think *Shaq was a tad better at the time* and was an incredible player in his prime, Oden also has a few things in his favor that Shaq did not.


that was my contention all along. there is not a doubt that shaq was a freak of nature and likely, no player has matched his physical ability. but oden comes close, very close. to say that shaq was a "much better player without question" is ridiculous if you look back at what each players accomplished during the same period of their careers.


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