# Postgame Thread: Bulls can't take the Heat/Gordon unhappy with lack of touches



## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

It's a lot more fun to do this after a win but here they are:


So far, so close 

Marlene writes:



> MIAMI -- No matter the opponent, no matter the stakes, the Bulls always come back. They are never intimidated by deficits that balloon like gas prices.
> 
> Monday night, when 20,214 crazed Heat fans took a victory for granted—and no one could blame them with the Heat leading by 20—Kirk Hinrich began to will the Bulls back in Game 2 of their first-round playoff series.
> 
> ...


Miami twice: Bulls return home down 2 

Brian writes:




> "Anytime you allow a team to get 68 points in a [first] half, it's going to be a long night,'' Bulls guard Ben Gordon said. "We were fighting from behind the whole night. We got it close, but we really had no cushion. We just allowed them to do whatever they wanted. That pretty much dictated how the game would be played.''
> 
> The Bulls talked about being better against Shaquille O'Neal.
> 
> ...



Heat gets to Bulls  

Mike writes:




> MIAMI — As a vacation kingdom, Miami is a place to kick back, relax and maybe enjoy some nice weather on the beach.
> 
> The Bulls did not find anything close to paradise Monday night on their visit to American Airlines Arena for Game 2 of the playoff series with the Miami Heat.
> 
> ...


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: because we all care too much: The game stories*

This is a sight and sound story from the Sun-Times:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-sights25.html



> About two hours before Game 2, TNT's Craig Sager was standing between Steve Kerr and Marv Albert, holding an old poster of the Luvabulls, but the three weren't just leering at cheerleaders. Sager's wife, Stacey Strebel of Arlington Heights, is a former Luvabull and will give birth to the couple's second child today. *Strebel was a Luvabull during the dynasty days, and Sager had a poster from the 1994-95 season. ''Kerr told me he spent more time looking at the Luvabulls than he did playing,'' Sager said. *


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: because we all care too much: The game stories*

Fred Mitchell in the Trib:


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...lsside,1,6056056.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

"


> We were able to take their punches when they went up 10 and 20 and were able to fight back and make it a ballgame," Bulls guard Chris Duhon said.
> 
> The Bulls, who led the league in defensive field-goal percentage during the regular season, saw Miami connect on 52.4 percent of its shots (44 of 84).
> 
> ...


And another story from Fred:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...chell,1,5008598.column?coll=cs-home-headlines



> Bulls general manager John Paxson said he had an inkling before Monday night's game that Wade would not be slowed significantly by the leg injury.
> 
> "Players like Wade are similar to Michael Jordan," Paxson said. "They tend to focus a little more and understand what it takes to get ready to play. The great ones tend to thrive on those type of things. So maybe that's a disadvantage for us."


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: because we all care too much: The game stories*

Payton just one problem for Gordon 




> Having Gary ''The Glove'' Payton defending you is one thing. Not getting a hand from your teammates or the game plan is something else.
> 
> 
> It sure sounded as if Ben Gordon felt the former was not nearly as big a reason as the latter for his 5-for-16 shooting Monday night.
> ...




just one more from the sun times about gordon not happy with the amount of touches he got last night.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: because we all care too much: The game stories*

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/251sd4.htm



> MIAMI — The Bulls lost Game 1 of their playoff series against Miami, but the way head coach Scott Skiles figured it, it was a lesson best chalked up to experience.
> 
> With savvy 37-year-old veteran Gary Payton in a lead role, the Heat put the clamps on the Bulls in general and guard Ben Gordon in particular in the decisive fourth quarter.
> 
> "It's another step for Ben," Skiles said of the 23-year-old guard. "Gary is a Hall of Fame player who routinely has been on All-Defensive Teams and those kinds of things. It's another challenge for Ben to get around that."



http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/251sd1.htm




> *If the Bulls intend to win even one game, they better find their defense.*
> 
> Two days after the Heat burned them for 61 points in the first half, the visitors were toasted for a ridiculous 68 points this time around. The output was the most allowed in one half by the Bulls this season.
> 
> ...


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: because we all care too much: The game stories*

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...sbrite,1,1200669.story?coll=cs-home-headlines



> It would be understandable for Kirk Hinrich to be gassed and let up on offense, given his huge responsibility on defense throughout the Bulls' first-round playoff series against the Heat—guarding Dwyane Wade.
> 
> *"A lot of times, competing against a guy like that and trying to do a good job, it gets me going," Hinrich said. "It kind of fuels my offense."*
> 
> ...


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

Why does it take a playoff series to get better quality reporting all around? There's so much stuff out there today that's good.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

Getting the offense started with Kirk Hinrich instead of Ben Gordon reminds me of how USC went with Lendale White instead of Reggie Bush in the Rose Bowl this year, particularly on the last few plays.

Lendale White was sufficient, but Reggie Bush was the real gamebreaker. They went to Lendale White all game because he was doing alright. They went to him on 4th and 1.

In case you've been off in expedition, USC lost to Texas, ending its 35 game winning streak.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

Observations from Ira Windeman:

http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_basketball_heat/



> -- Watching Dwyane Wade defensively track Ben Gordon, you can appreciate Wade's cramping. Then again, it's certainly a good tune-up for tracking Richard Hamilton.





> -- The Bulls seemed to have caught on to the fact the Heat does not have an answer for Luol Deng. Still, he should be getting the ball even more.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Narek said:


> This is a sight and sound story from the Sun-Times:
> 
> http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-sights25.html
> 
> ...


Sounds like Strebel is qualified to be GM of the Bulls!


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

John Hollinger in the Daily Dime 




> *So let me get something straight. The Bulls led the league in field-goal percentage defense this year . . . Right? We're sure that wasn't a typo? Because in the first two games of their Eastern Conference playoff series, Chicago's allegedly tough defense has surrendered one easy basket after another to Miami.*
> 
> After scoring 111 points in Saturday's win, the Heat redoubled their efforts on Monday. Miami scored 95 points in the first three quarters en route to a 115-108 victory, shooting 52.4 percent from the floor while landing all five starters in double figures.
> 
> ...


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

I think when you get 15 touches and you only hit 5 of them it is pretty clearly just not your night to make shots and if Ben would have gotten more touches he just would have likely had more misses.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> I think when you get 15 touches and you only hit 5 of them it is pretty clearly just not your night to make shots and if Ben would have gotten more touches he just would have likely had more misses.


C'mon if you're gonna be a star player you have to be allowed to work out of a slump. That's the problem with how they handle Gordon, because he's a player that no matter what he's shooting, he needs the ball in the 4th.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Chops said:


> C'mon if you're gonna be a star player you have to be allowed to work out of a slump. That's the problem with how they handle Gordon, because he's a player that no matter what he's shooting, he needs the ball in the 4th.



I understand that shooters have to shoot themselves out of slumps but Ben has historically had some nights that he has brought it and other nights that he hasn't. He took 4 shots in the 4th and missed all of them a pretty good indicator that for this particular playoff game someone else needed to be the designated hoister.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

ace20004u said:


> I understand that shooters have to shoot themselves out of slumps but Ben has historically had some nights that he has brought it and other nights that he hasn't. He took 4 shots in the 4th and missed all of them a pretty good indicator that for this particular playoff game someone else needed to be the designated hoister.


And some nights he might just score 21 points in 6 minutes.


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## Philomath (Jan 3, 2003)

I understand Ben was frustrated, but 16 shots isn't nothing. Hinrich had 18, everybody else, including the guy who shot 87% and scored 30 points, had less. Should we have taken some shots away from Red Bull? Or was it Hinrich, who had two more attempts and 5 more makes? I didn't get the sense he was ignored or "in the corner". He just needs to keep his chin up, Skiles has to look at ways to free him up (adjustments!) and Ben should get ready to be assertive and score 50 if the opportunity presents itself. Nobody puts Baby Ben in the corner.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> C'mon if you're gonna be a star player you have to be allowed to work out of a slump.


I sort of agree, we just seem to ignore him for the whole game if he's cold. But one thing Gordon needs to realise if his J isn't falling, attack the rim.
That's just one aspect he seems to show off once in a blue moon though.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

maybe ben should worry more about the amount of touches jason williams is getting.




:|


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

mizenkay said:


> maybe ben should worry more about the amount of touches jason williams is getting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ron Adams just said Ben had a mediocre game. He spent a lot of time on the floor though.

He did mention that Shaq's seen every defensive scheme in the world and knows how to deal with 'em.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> I understand that shooters have to shoot themselves out of slumps but Ben has historically had some nights that he has brought it and other nights that he hasn't. He took 4 shots in the 4th and missed all of them a pretty good indicator that for this particular playoff game someone else needed to be the designated hoister.


But when you watch the game, it's not just 15 FGA's with 5 makes. It's Gordon not getting the ball in the flow of the offense. Plays weren't being run for him all that much.

He needs to free up and get more touches in the flow of the offense, and Skiles acknowledges that. I give Hinrich a lot of credit, because he tried to put the game on his shoulders. And when Ben gets the last surprise kick in a penetration-and-kick or a scrappy pass out of a broken play, he SHOULD be able to make that shot. That's something Jason Williams was doing all night, and something Rip Hamilton has been doing all season. 

Gordon knows how to run off the screen or move when there's several screens being set for him, but he's not that great at just finishing plays as an optional guy. He needs to be in the flow of the offense to be effective, and that's just difficult to do when Hinrich dominates the ball.

But the fact is, Gordon is still growing as a player and he needs to get better defensively first and foremost, then learn how to take that pull-the-trigger jumper. Those are both skills that are acquired through the first few years of an NBA player's career.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

The 6ft Hurdle said:


> Getting the offense started with Kirk Hinrich instead of Ben Gordon reminds me of how USC went with Lendale White instead of Reggie Bush in the Rose Bowl this year, particularly on the last few plays.
> 
> Lendale White was sufficient, but Reggie Bush was the real gamebreaker. They went to Lendale White all game because he was doing alright. They went to him on 4th and 1.


During the fourth quarter last night, Hinrich was 7-10 from the field (17 points) and had 2 assists (for a total of 21 points he either scored or assisted). Gordon was 1-5 from the field (2 points) and 1 assist (totaling 5 points he either scored or assisted).

Look -- Gordon has it some nights, Hinrich has it others. We have no other options at this point.


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## bre9 (Jan 8, 2006)

Kirk seems to ignore Ben in the corner alot Kirk will go over to ben then he'll go away and take the shot for his self. Ben shouldn't let that worry him cause he's the best shooter on the team. Time will show and he'll be a star in about two years from now.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

I have it on good authority that Kirk's pay is docked $1,000 every time he passes the ball to Ben. This fine is increased to $5,000 every time Kirk passes the ball to Ben in the corner. Additionally, these fines are doubled in the playoffs.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

VincentVega said:


> I have it on good authority that Kirk's pay is docked $1,000 every time he passes the ball to Ben. This fine is increased to $5,000 every time Kirk passes the ball to Ben in the corner. Additionally, these fines are doubled in the playoffs.


That is my understanding as well. Further, there are incentives built into Kirk's contract to discourage him from having any assists at all. His pay is further adversely affected by every win. It's to his financial benefit to freeze Ben out at all costs.....

.....don't blame Kirk. It's in the contract. I'm tired of Kirk not fulfilling the terms of his contract!


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

VincentVega said:


> During the fourth quarter last night, Hinrich was 7-10 from the field (17 points) and had 2 assists (for a total of 21 points he either scored or assisted). Gordon was 1-5 from the field (2 points) and 1 assist (totaling 5 points he either scored or assisted).
> 
> Look -- Gordon has it some nights, Hinrich has it others. We have no other options at this point.


We were down by 17 and we never got closer than 4. He shot a great percentage, but hey so did Eddy Curry, for a whole season over Shaq, and it didn't really mean that we were any closer to winning. He took a lot of wide-open shots. The comeback was nice, but we weren't fooling anyone. There was a lot of hesitation in it. Miami just came right back and answered without ANY hesitation.

The difference is that when Gordon has it on and is controlling the ball, most of everyone on the team will probably have a good game as well. 

With BG at point, even Kirk after a bad half still got his 19 points on 6/14 shooting. 

Half of the credit is to Kirk's own shooting, but it's also because he had the opportunity because of the fast-moving, ball-swinging (haha, for you prepubescent and prepubescent-minded folks) offense; he wasn't over-handling the ball, but he was actually shooting. He wasn't trying to do too much, like he usually is. *I think it's best for an overthinker like Kirk to be relegated to have that one purpose every time he touches the ball and have the guy who makes more definite and calculated moves handle the ball.*

In the meanwhile, Gordon needs to have the ball and NOT just to take shots. He's really mediocre if we relegate him to this role, and is the player that people refer to when they have to cite negative things. I don't think we have much chance if Skiles keeps him there, especially if this denial of the ball to him keeps up as is into our fourth quarters.

Like Showtyme and a gang of people have already said, though more mildly, Gordon's game operates within the flow of the offense, and it's not just shooting.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Trade Kirk! Fire Skiles! Blow up the team!


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

I think both Kirk and Noc have had good/great series' so far, but watching the guys play against the Heat, I think there might be an important psychological difference in how they play compared to Ben Gordon.

It seems like most of our team, although it is playing really hard and competitive, seems to be operating with a built in inferiority complex that the Heat are better than them, and sort of do things with the tacit understanding that they more or less deserve to be behind in the score, and once they catchup, it almost seems as if they're relieved and start to let up a little bit, almost as if they don't feel like they deserve to be in the lead and they're just on borrowed time. 

From what I can tell, Ben Gordon, in this series in particular, and throughout the past two years in general, seems to be the only guy who honestly plays with a confidence that gives the impression that he actually thinks he's better than the guy that's guarding him, and when the game's in the balance, actually shoots to make it, and instead of just trying to 'not miss it' like Kirk and Noc seem to do a lot. 

This isn't meant to be a knock on Kirk or Noc, as I like both guys a lot, and I'll take them on my team any day of the week, but it seems like they operate like this a lot. Against good teams, they're more comfortable being behind than being ahead.

It's never a good idea to abandon team ball, but in games like this, I think it'll usually be a good idea to sort of do a 'heat check' with Ben in the fourth quarter just to see if he can get it going on, because as good as guys like Kirk, Du, and Noc are, even when they're playing well, I don't think a singular performance by them is capable of installing fear/respect in the opposing team as a red hot Ben Gordon can.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

rosenthall said:


> I think both Kirk and Noc have had good/great series' so far, but watching the guys play against the Heat, I think there might be an important psychological difference in how they play compared to Ben Gordon.
> 
> It seems like most of our team, although it is playing really hard and competitive, seems to be operating with a built in inferiority complex that the Heat are better than them, and sort of do things with the tacit understanding that they more or less deserve to be behind in the score, and once they catchup, it almost seems as if they're relieved and start to let up a little bit, almost as if they don't feel like they deserve to be in the lead and they're just on borrowed time.
> 
> ...


Must spread rep to others before giving to Rosenthall again.

Thank you. Your point about this psychological difference between Ben and the rest of the team is the point that I have been trying to get at when I said that "Kirk and others not named Ben can do a good job of bringing us back to games, but they never can win it." 

That confidence really counts for a lot and as a result you don't see him making as many critical mistakes in the clutch.

But it makes you wonder why this confidence is either not known, took a long time to be known, or gap even consciously being brought down by Skiles ? 

I mean, WHY do we keep giving the ball to Kirk and Noc in these pressure situations when they've messed up more than their fair share of times ? Think about it, we almost LOST that Washington game (and erased BG's 9/9 performance) because of nervous/scared play from those two down the stretch. 

Yet Skiles seems determined to keep giving those two more than their fair share of opportunities when they have proved very little (other than they can get us back into the game when we have absolutely nothing to lose). 

But, this is not really about cutting down their opportunities as much as giving more opportunity to BG. I really wonder sometimes how any other coach would handle and utilize his abilities. I tend to think that he'd be slightly better and averaging close to 19 or 20 points a game, and wouldn't have his abilities questioned just about every game.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

Skiles comments on Gordon's off night 





> If Ben Gordon wants more touches, he can start with the poke he received Tuesday from coach Scott Skiles.
> 
> After a 13-point, 5-of-16 shooting night in Game 2 of the playoffs against Miami—on the heels of a 35-point Game 1— the Bulls guard suggested he didn't get enough touches offensively and that the play-calling limited how effective he could be.
> 
> ...


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

LOL. If there is a winner at every level in this team is Nocioni. Even when he first got here he got to the playoffs. So that inferiority thing, respect, fear, "______________", doesnt apply to Nocioni. He is used to play with a lead, to defend it. 

What makes Gordon look as if he is in a different level psychologicaly? Thats news to me.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Scott Skiles said:


> "[Monday] night, for whatever reason, he just kind of stayed at the same speed. That plays into their hands, especially with a guy like [Miami guard Gary] Payton, who's very adept at keeping the ball out of a player's hands."http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...llsbits,1,529223.story?coll=cs-home-headlines


I mentioned this in the post game 1 observations thread. At the end of that game, the Heat figured out that they could get somewhere by denying Ben the ball. 

That was bad, but it's certainly a failure on our part that the Heat were able to do it so effectively in game 2. I mean Gary Payton's a defensive freak and all, but he's just shy of his 50th birthday. All the credit shouldn't go to him, or the Heat's good defense in general. 

Good defense is one thing, but even top flight defense typically doesn't completely shut down top-level offensive players. I think a significant share of the blame has to go to Gordon, the other Bulls, and the coaches for not getting the ball in his hands.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Mikedc said:


> I mentioned this in the post game 1 observations thread. At the end of that game, the Heat figured out that they could get somewhere by denying Ben the ball.
> 
> That was bad, but it's certainly a failure on our part that the Heat were able to do it so effectively in game 2. I mean Gary Payton's a defensive freak and all, but he's just shy of his 50th birthday. All the credit shouldn't go to him, or the Heat's good defense in general.
> 
> Good defense is one thing, but even top flight defense typically doesn't completely shut down top-level offensive players. I think a significant share of the blame has to go to Gordon, the other Bulls, and the coaches for not getting the ball in his hands.


Several things regarding the whole Gordon situation right now:

1. In the game thread yesterday I suggested that letting Gordon take the ball up the court would be a good way to nulify Payton's D - which is based on denying Ben the ball in the half court - he's too slow for Gordon once Ben gets the ball. For a good part of the second quarter Gordon brought the ball up and was very effective. He was scoring and dishing nicely to the rest of the guys.

2. Eventually we went away from this. I'm NOT criticizing that move. Hinrich had the hot hand in the 4th quarter. I trust Skiles' in game decisions (with the exception of Pargo usage) implicitly and I think he might have gone back to the Ben initiating strategy had Kirk not been on fire in the 4th. Given that Kirk was on fire, whatever. Go with the hot hand.

3. The headline in the Tribune today - "Gordon's off night - as Skiles sees it" is absolutely ridiculous. As far as I can tell, Skiles made one relatively innocuous comment about Ben not being as effective as he sometimes is - he certainly said nothing juicy and yet that's a headline? Wow. Inflammatory nonsense. Let's ignore it.

4. Please, please, please let's not have Ben Gordon become the next Eddy Curry of this board. His bad game was 13, 4 and 4. It's fun for Barry Rozner and writers of his ilk to suggest that there's some massive rift between Gordon and Skiles. Bottom line, that's a load. Gordon's scored 48 points over 2 playoff games, and Skiles did a dynamite job getting the squad to the post season. I really hope that frustration over dropping a series to the Heat (and we probably will, as damn near every 7 does to every 2) doesn't get everybody so worked up that they can't see that Skiles has done and excellent job this year and that Gordon has made big strides as a player.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

jbulls said:


> 3. The headline in the Tribune today - "Gordon's off night - as Skiles sees it" is absolutely ridiculous. As far as I can tell, Skiles made one relatively innocuous comment about Ben not being as effective as he sometimes is - he certainly said nothing juicy and yet that's a headline? Wow. Inflammatory nonsense. Let's ignore it.


In the papers defense, theres a history here. Is it all but certain that Ben had his agent lobby the press to start this season? The fact that tension are coming up again in the playoffs is a pretty big story, and not"inflammatory nonsense." I agree though. Could have picked a better title.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

such sweet thunder said:


> In the papers defense, theres a history here. Is it all but certain that Ben had his agent lobby the press to start this season? The fact that tension are coming up again in the playoffs is a pretty big story, and not"inflammatory nonsense." I agree though. Could have picked a better title.


I'm not naive enough to dismiss the idea of player's "people" providing information and trying to sway public opinion, but in this case I don't think that comes into play. Ben DID start initially this season, and Skiles was effusive in his praise of him all off season and training camp...

Personally I don't think "tensions" are coming up, as far as I can tell Gordon's made ONE commentl and a fairly benign one at that - that he would've liked more touches in game two. To me that's hardly worthy of that headline. Of course Ben's frustrated. I'm GLAD he said that. I want Ben Gordon to want the ball in this series. I dig Kirk. I dig Noc. I dig Deng. But for us to win this thing Ben's going to have to go nuts.

IMO, Ben needs to bring the ball up the court A LOT in game three. We can't have guys denying him in half court sets, he's made good decisions when he's initiated the offense, and Hinrich is a better shooter coming off screens and shooting from 18 to 20 feet. Can't see why anyone would argue otherwise...


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

jbulls said:


> I'm not naive enough to dismiss the idea of player's "people" providing information and trying to sway public opinion, but in this case I don't think that comes into play. Ben DID start initially this season, and Skiles was effusive in his praise of him all off season and training camp...
> 
> Personally I don't think "tensions" are coming up, as far as I can tell Gordon's made ONE commentl and a fairly benign one at that - that he would've liked more touches in game two. To me that's hardly worthy of that headline. Of course Ben's frustrated. I'm GLAD he said that. I want Ben Gordon to want the ball in this series. I dig Kirk. I dig Noc. I dig Deng. But for us to win this thing Ben's going to have to go nuts.
> 
> IMO, Ben needs to bring the ball up the court A LOT in game three. We can't have guys denying him in half court sets, he's made good decisions when he's initiated the offense, and Hinrich is a better shooter coming off screens and shooting from 18 to 20 feet. Can't see why anyone would argue otherwise...


I thought Gordon made a comment after game 1 that was a borderline shot at hinrich/nocioni and skiles.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

El Chapu said:


> LOL. If there is a winner at every level in this team is Nocioni. Even when he first got here he got to the playoffs. So that inferiority thing, respect, fear, "______________", doesnt apply to Nocioni. He is used to play with a lead, to defend it.
> 
> What makes Gordon look as if he is in a different level psychologicaly? Thats news to me.



LOL, thats exactly what I am thinking. What is someome here capable of giving these guys psych evaluations based on their facial expressions? I'm impressed! I like Ben Gordon but the bottom line here guys is he DID not have it last game, thus the 5-16 shooting, thats why he wasn't taking the big shots down the stretch...period.


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## Bulls4Life (Nov 13, 2002)

Chops said:


> C'mon if you're gonna be a star player you have to be allowed to work out of a slump. That's the problem with how they handle Gordon, because he's a player that no matter what he's shooting, he needs the ball in the 4th.


I agree!


Look at Wade in game 1. Lousy for 3 quarters but all-world in the 4th.

Bottom line is Ben is the go-to guy on this team and he needs to be given the ball.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Bulls4Life said:


> I agree!
> 
> 
> Look at Wade in game 1. Lousy for 3 quarters but all-world in the 4th.
> ...



I don't think this team has, needs, or wants a "go to guy", I think they want to play team basketball and that means that on any given night anyone could be the "go to guy".


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

El Chapu said:


> LOL. If there is a winner at every level in this team is Nocioni. Even when he first got here he got to the playoffs. So that inferiority thing, respect, fear, "______________", doesnt apply to Nocioni. He is used to play with a lead, to defend it.


There's no question about that. . .on DEFENSE. The other players cling tightly to that partly because it is important but probably also because they don't trust in their abilities on offense.



> What makes Gordon look as if he is in a different level psychologicaly? Thats news to me.


On offense, "in the clutch" when he and the others except Ben, are handling the ball they are really prone to make mistakes. Hinrich, Duhon, and Deng have a tendency to throw the ball away, Noc has the tendency to shoot too soon. They are all absolutely shook when it comes to offense unless they are down by 10 with 5 minutes to go when basically we have nothing to lose. But come within 2 points or tie the game, they become a lot less effective. 

Built-in inferiority complex --- always thinking that it's Miami's or another team's game to win. They probably are running with the mindset that they are lucky to have a lead. They've maxed out their abilities. They've done all they can, and all we can do is hang-on. As a result after they get a lead they play ultra-conservatively on offense. 

That's when Ben comes in. 

What goes through his mind ?

Not sure, but from what he says after successful games, he's just filling a need. He just has this confidence that he has what the Bulls need and that he can do it whenever we need it. His actions mirror that, as he doesn't force any passes or shots (unless it's with little time on the clock). Like Rosenthall said, he shoots to make the shot (as opposed to "not missing it), which means that he'll keep scoring regardless of who he plays as opposed to the other guys who are likely to be "over- aware"/overthink of what the other team is doing.

That's what makes him different.

Like I said, Ben comes in and usually we don't take the lead till he makes a shot or touches the ball in some capacity that leads to a hoop. 

I mean in game 1, we didn't take the lead until Ben had that missed driving lay-up which Tyson dunked home. HE was on fire --- he scored 7 points just 6 minutes into the quarter and I don't particularly remember Kirk being on fire.


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## unBULLievable (Dec 13, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> I thought Gordon made a comment after game 1 that was a borderline shot at hinrich/nocioni and skiles.


I think you read too much into it.

Of course that happens when you hate white players so much


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> *I don't think this team has, needs, or wants a "go to guy"*, I think they want to play team basketball and that means that on any given night anyone could be the "go to guy".



The fact that we are down 0-2 to the heat disgrees with your first statement.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> The fact that we are down 0-2 to the heat disgrees with your first statement.



I don't think so at all. Remember we are playing the 2 seed and probably the best or second best team in the EC and we are staying right with them. Once we add some decent frontcourt help and maybe a 2 guard with some size & athleticism like John Salmons possibly, we will be able to truly compete with the Miami's & Detroits of the world IMO and we will be doing it without a "star" player, kind of like Detroit.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> *Let the truth be known, Ben Gordon is a playmaker, simply because he literally goes out there and make his own plays. I don't understand why Scott Skiles does not run multiple picks in order to get Gordon the ball, especially when he is scorching like in Game 1. Down the stretch, although many will not admit, Ben got open without the picks but Hinrich and Nocioni were doing their best impression of the Stockon/Malone high-pick-and-roll ONLY passing it to each other which made the plays more like Bibby/Webber choke-and-roll. --Gary Young, Bedford Heights, Ohio*
> 
> _Don't fool yourself. Ben makes it look easy when he's scoring because he's so effortless and economical. But as you saw in Game 2, you can make some adjustments on him and cause him problems because of his size. The Heat had long James Posey on him as well and it frustrates him. Plus, that is not the way the Bulls play and I commend Skiles. You get an open shot, you take it. I hate teams that run sets for one player time and again. Get everyone involved if you can. It's different if you have a Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant, but the Bulls don't. I like Ben in his role._




Sam Smith Q&A 4/26


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> After scoring 35 points in Game 1, he finished with 13 on 5-for-16 shooting on Monday. Then, he bemoaned a gameplan that he said limited his involvement in the offense.
> 
> *Skiles took issue, saying the Bulls "constantly" run plays for Gordon.
> 
> ...



http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/basketball/nba/golden_state_warriors/14435301.htm


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

"We have more plays in our offense (for Ben) than any team has in their offense for any player in the league."


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

jbulls said:


> Several things regarding the whole Gordon situation right now:
> 
> 1. In the game thread yesterday I suggested that letting Gordon take the ball up the court would be a good way to nulify Payton's D - which is based on denying Ben the ball in the half court - he's too slow for Gordon once Ben gets the ball. For a good part of the second quarter Gordon brought the ball up and was very effective. He was scoring and dishing nicely to the rest of the guys.
> 
> ...


Heh.... I expected Ben to be the next whipping boy from the moment Crawford left. Turns out I was late in my prediction, but I think there was some pretty significant movement toward that end this year. Not that I wanted to see it, it's just that I think that's what happens when you have a guy with Ben's skills and with our expectations on a team that, for most of the year didn't meet most folks' expectations. Obviously that'll change when we have unexpected success, no one needs a scapegoat when you're winning 

Anyway, thankfully what happens on this board, or in the papers, isn't necessarily what Skiles thinks. I wasn't trying to say that either Skiles or Gordon haven't performed well this year. But I do think it's worth attaching some importance to how the playoffs unfolds. For one thing, Ben's series against the Wiz last year started off pretty well and went progressively downhill. Remember he had 30 points in the first game last year too. And 44 after the first two.

Say it's Ben, say it's Skiles, say it's his teammates, I think there's room for a bit of improvement on all fronts. Ben isn't a statue, but he isn't exactly Rip Hamilton when it comes to moving off the ball either. Even in the half-court, one would think he could shake a 35 year old Gary Payton over the course of a game. And his teammates... I don't think they've done horribly, but they haven't done anything special in terms of looking for him either, I don't think. Skiles... I dunno... I tend to think he's put about the right tactics in place, but your tactics are only as good as they're implemented.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

Skiles says it's time for Gordon to stop his grumblings... 






> CHICAGO - *In dealing with the latest chapter of Ben Gordon's "Tips On How To Run A Team," Bulls coach Scott Skiles said he made his feelings "very clear" to the openly frustrated guard.
> *
> Thus Skiles' response to Gordon's grumblings about too few offensive touches was as blunt as a two-by-four to the skull.
> 
> "I've heard similar things throughout the course of the year," Skiles said after preparing his team for Thursday night's Game 3 at the United Center against the Heat in the NBA's Eastern Conference playoffs. "It's something he's going to have to get over. He needs to face the personal responsibility of what he needs to get done. ... It's an opportunity for him to learn a good lesson at this time of year."







> *Assuming this soap opera has been put on hiatus with the Bulls down 2-0* in their first-round series, the issue becomes how Gordon can revert to his form in Game 1 - in which he blistered the Heat for 35 points - after shooting 5 of 16 in Game 2.
> 
> *"They're pretty much just face-guarding me and being very physical," Gordon said. "They're fighting over screens, so I just have to work on getting open and using screens better to try and get the ball."*
> 
> ...




:sfight: :makeout:


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> Skiles says it's time for Gordon to stop his grumblings...
> :sfight: :makeout:


On the other hand... that was a bit more of a response than I expected :|


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> On the other hand... that was a bit more of a response than I expected :|


Since you quoted the headline, realize that the headline was not a Skiles quote. Skiles has always been about constructive criticism, and that goes for every player on the team the past two seasons.

It almost seems that the media wants there to be a Skiles/Gordon feud. I have not seen quotes from either party indicating that such is so.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Rhyder said:


> Since you quoted the headline, realize that the headline was not a Skiles quote. Skiles has always been about constructive criticism, and that goes for every player on the team the past two seasons.
> 
> It almost seems that the media wants there to be a Skiles/Gordon feud. I have not seen quotes from either party indicating that such is so.


Yeah, but I only quoted that from the convenience of it. I thought this was pretty telling:


> "I've heard similar things throughout the course of the year," Skiles said after preparing his team for Thursday night's Game 3 at the United Center against the Heat in the NBA's Eastern Conference playoffs. "It's something he's going to have to get over. He needs to face the personal responsibility of what he needs to get done. ... It's an opportunity for him to learn a good lesson at this time of year."


Yeah, it's "constructive" criticism, but it's also sort of a confirmation that it's been an ongoing issue with Ben, not simply some media construction. I'm sure someone will try to parse that meaning away, but it's not like Skiles said it's something the media is going to have to get over... he directed it clearly at Ben and said Ben needs to step up and take responsibility.

Put another way, he needs to move better without the ball in his hands and get open.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> Yeah, it's "constructive" criticism, but it's also sort of a confirmation that it's been an ongoing issue with Ben, not simply some media construction. I'm sure someone will try to parse that meaning away, but it's not like Skiles said it's something the media is going to have to get over... he directed it clearly at Ben and said Ben needs to step up and take responsibility.
> 
> Put another way, he needs to move better without the ball in his hands and get open.


I don't think there is any need to parse the meaning away. I think it has been obvious since Skiles keeps flip-flopping Ben in and out of the starting lineup. Ben has acknowledged that he has to do things better every time he has been asked about being moved back to the bench.

I really do like the way Skiles has been grooming Ben, moreso than any other player on the team. If anything, Skiles has proven he is a great teacher of guard play. Bigs are a different story, or we have yet to see what Skiles can do to improve our frontcourt game. I think he sort of gets a waiver on our frontcourt development this year at least, because our frontcourt consists of our least skilled guys without a veteran to teach the youngins outside of offensive role-player Othella.


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## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

> The paper reported a Gordon sighting at the trendy nightclub Prive late Saturday night,


Ben has good taste.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Mikedc said:


> Yeah, but I only quoted that from the convenience of it. I thought this was pretty telling:
> 
> 
> Yeah, it's "constructive" criticism, but it's also sort of a confirmation that it's been an ongoing issue with Ben, not simply some media construction. I'm sure someone will try to parse that meaning away, but it's not like Skiles said it's something the media is going to have to get over... he directed it clearly at Ben and said Ben needs to step up and take responsibility.
> ...


Yeah, not the world's most encouraging article. Still, Skiles' words aren't exactly damning. The headline writers are the Tribune are getting a little carried away, IMO.

I agree that Gordon needs to move more without the ball and get open etc. I will be very interested to watch Gordon's moving without the ball in game three, and whether or not Skiles has him take the ball up court and initiate the offense more - which I think has been an extremely effective strategy thus far. All griping aside, Skiles has played Ben more than any other player this series. And, as my avatar has informed us, Skiles' policy is "if you won't do it, your damn substitute will". Gordon can't be totally dogging it without the ball and log 40 minutes in consecutive contests.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

jbulls said:


> Yeah, not the world's most encouraging article. Still, Skiles' words aren't exactly damning. The headline writers are the Tribune are getting a little carried away, IMO.
> 
> I agree that Gordon needs to move more without the ball and get open etc. I will be very interested to watch Gordon's moving without the ball in game three, and whether or not Skiles has him take the ball up court and initiate the offense more - which I think has been an extremely effective strategy thus far. All griping aside, Skiles has played Ben more than any other player this series. And, as my avatar has informed us, Skiles' policy is "if you won't do it, your damn substitute will". Gordon can't be totally dogging it without the ball and log 40 minutes in consecutive contests.


I agree there! My concern isn't so much with Skiles losing patience with Ben as Ben losing patience with Skiles. Skiles is playing him. Ben seems dangerously close to thinking he's better than he is at the moment. That is, he's good, but he seems to chafe at the reins pretty consistently and not realize how far he's actually come.

I actually don't think there's too much "danger" here. I mean, I think it's pretty typical for top flight players to think they're better than they are. I can live with complaining and an ego if he produces, and largely Ben does. But I'm not sure that's true for other fans who get ticked when they see something like this. Especially if the team isn't winning... regardless of whether it's the player's "fault" or not.



Rhyder said:


> I don't think there is any need to parse the meaning away. I think it has been obvious since Skiles keeps flip-flopping Ben in and out of the starting lineup. Ben has acknowledged that he has to do things better every time he has been asked about being moved back to the bench.
> 
> I really do like the way Skiles has been grooming Ben, moreso than any other player on the team. If anything, Skiles has proven he is a great teacher of guard play. Bigs are a different story, or we have yet to see what Skiles can do to improve our frontcourt game. I think he sort of gets a waiver on our frontcourt development this year at least, because our frontcourt consists of our least skilled guys without a veteran to teach the youngins outside of offensive role-player Othella.


I agree with most all of this except that I see lots of folks losing patience over time as they see the wash-rinse-repeat of Ben starting, getting benched, complaining, listening, starting, getting benched, complaining... etc.

It does seem like he is getting better. He does move better off the ball, and he's getting significantly better at making decisions with the ball in his hands. His PG skills, in my mind, at least, have been his most dramatic area of improvement. He's pretty competent at bringing the ball up - something that definitely wasn't true even at the beginning of the year in my opinion.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Ya know, the bulls really do have more plays for gordon than for anyone else.

There's the one where he is given the ball at the top of the key and he scores and the one where he gets the ball in the corner via a pass.

Then there's the bulls other play, which is to watch Hinrich dribble the ball all over the court, through the lane, back to the top of the key, and eventually he passes it to someone for a 3pt attempt in the corner.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

jbulls said:


> I will be very interested to watch Gordon's moving without the ball in game three, and whether or not Skiles has him take the ball up court and initiate the offense more - which I think has been an extremely effective strategy thus far.


I don't even know why we went away from that. It was pretty damn effective last time for everyone involved. We actually had a chance to win the game, then Kirk and Noc started trying to play hero. I think moving him from that spot was the main source of Bens' struggle, and it will continue if he doesn't touch the ball. 

Quick, can anyone name a reason of how or why that makes sense ?

Now's not the time to be teaching life lessons, Scott Skiles. Jeezeiss. For all these claims that he's some kind of strategic genius, he doesn't appear to be an eccentric cause-and-effect kind of guy, more of an eccentric blind faith coach who makes odd decisions especially pertaining to pressure situations. Are we here to win or are we here to teach Ben Gordon some lessons ?

This whole battle feels like Cinderella with Scott being the evil stepmom and Kirk and Duhon the evil stepsisters. 

Hmm. Photoshop opp.


> All griping aside, Skiles has played Ben more than any other player this series. And, as my avatar has informed us, Skiles' policy is "if you won't do it, your damn substitute will". Gordon can't be totally dogging it without the ball and log 40 minutes in consecutive contests.


I guess the substitute, Duhon, will also rally us back and make the game-winning shot. Or that can be totally left to Kirk and Noc, I mean we did get to within 4 after being down 17 to start the 3rd quarter. Wade did answer back with a yawn, but we showed heart at least and showed the nation that we are not backing down. That was quite the nailbiter until Ben couldn't be aggressive enough in catching that intercepted pass from Duhon.

We don't need Mr. Me Me Me or that ability to score 21 points in 6 minutes in important must-win games. The 'clutch' is overrated anyway. This is a team game that you play for 48 minutes, not the last 5 minutes. If you don't play well all game, you probably don't deserve a chance to win. I'm sorry the game doesn't begin in the 4th quarter. You may determine who wins or loses during this period, but while we may pull out about 10-15 games because of strong fourth quarters by Ben, it hides a lot of the mistakes that we, particularly he, still has. We might as well see his weaknesses not masked by chance 4th quarter rallies. It's tough luck, but Ben needs to learn that it's part of the game if he's going to stay around. 

And if that's not enough for you rugged individualists out there, we have a guy who's too good to play for USA basketball that he rejected the opportunity and the Argentinian Ron Artest to carry us. Those two are our real stars. Ben's just been hogging the ball in the "clutch." Sure Noc and Kirk have made a few mistakes, like throwing the ball away against Washington and nearly losing the game or pulling the trigger too early before anyone gets in position to rebound, but Skiles needs to have faith in them. They are young players, but they are our leaders. I don't understand how you guys put so much pressure on these two, you need to give them time and space to relax and be leaders.

I mean, you can't really argue the results of last game, cutting the lead down to 4 and all. We did the best we can, especially considering that this is the #2 seed. At the very least Ben is increasing his trade value so we can finally nab the next Chris Webber, except his last name is Bosh, and a tall defensive shooting guard that'll let Kirk Hinrich play his natural position and go off on teams like absolutely showed Miami last game. With that line-up, we may only win 41 games again, but we'll be a more solid 41 win team because we'll also be set for the future.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> Ya know, the bulls really do have more plays for gordon than for anyone else.
> 
> There's the one where he is given the ball at the top of the key and he scores and the one where he gets the ball in the corner via a pass.
> 
> Then there's the bulls other play, which is to watch Hinrich dribble the ball all over the court, through the lane, back to the top of the key, and eventually he passes it to someone for a 3pt attempt in the corner.


What team do you coach?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

VincentVega said:


> What team do you coach?


Now that's funny.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

It's a serious question. I'm interested in knowing how we even made the playoffs with only three variations of the same wrinkle in our playbook.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

VincentVega said:


> It's a serious question. I'm interested in knowing how we even made the playoffs with only three variations of the same wrinkle in our playbook.


I played enough organized ball in my life to recognize offensive and defensive sets on the court. My coach in high school was Jeff Bzdelik, who recently coached the Nuggets.

The Bulls' sets too frequently end up with Deng or Gordon or Duhon taking shots in the corners. So much so, that I've commented that the way to stop the bulls is to simply put a defender in each of the corners and play 3 men in a zone.

Anyone with half a brain and who watches the Bulls can see that hinrich dribbles the ball an awful lot, he can basically go anywhere with the ball he wants, and he frequently drives the lane and passes up layups to keep dribbling back out of the lane.

Heck, in the last Heat game, Hinrich got a mismatch with Walker guarding him. He blew by walker and had a clear path to the basket. He must have freaked out because he didn't continue to the basket for the layup and passed it right away. Probably to a defender.

How did we make the playoffs? We made a lot of 3 point shots.

EDIT: and in the big games at the end of the season, Gordon played PG.


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## taurus515th (Oct 13, 2005)

i think the media just wants to mess this team up. why is it that the media said we should trade gordon or he doesnt get any touches. he only had 4 less shot attempts against wade and wade played more minutes so wuts the big deal. i think the media just wants to cause trouble with gordon so that paxson will be high on trading him. i think gordon is a good player and will be even better next year and the media doesnt want to c that happen. why is it that the only time you here the media say something about the bulls it is something negative? 

think about how good this team will be when paxson makes the right moves this offseason. :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

VincentVega said:


> It's a serious question. I'm interested in knowing how we even made the playoffs with only three variations of the same wrinkle in our playbook.


A pitcher's only got three pitches - curveball, slider, and fastball - is a pretty good pitcher if
1) they can pitch each well
2) they know when to pitch each one


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