# Concerned about Love being a foulcoholic?



## Mateo

I am. Young bigs have a tendancy to overfoul anyways. What makes it worse for Love is that he's not very quick and doesn't have a good vertical jump. I'm afraid that he's going to be spending too much time on the bench. Even if he is as good on offense as we all hope, we need him doing more than Craig Smith minutes in his rookie year. We need him getting 30mpg but I'm afraid fouling won't allow that.


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## luther

Yes, I am also worried about his fouling. It's difficult, in that I think he's going to be a better defender on centers than on power forwards, who are more likely to be able to face up on him and take him in space. But against centers, he's significantly undersized a lot of the time. I think you're wrong on his vertical leap, though. Didn't he measure at like 37" or something, according to the Wolves during the post-draft press conference? He's not Michael Jordan--I'm not kidding myself--but as a PF/C prospect, I don't think he's as bad an athlete as his reputation says. Honestly, I believe that he's getting the same treatment most white guys get. Just as every European is a soft, sweet-shooting player in many people's eyes, every white American is a bad athlete. (I'm not saying you in particular are falling into that; you consistently show really good judgment, in my opinion. I am just venting on the general perceptions.)


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## Mateo

Well I don't watch college basketball but in the little I've seen I never saw him jumping high. Maybe can jump though, I don't watch college basketball.


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## luther

Here are his Orlando camp measurements/workout/drill numbers. 35" max vertical, which is the same as Michael Beasley's. As for his quickness, in the lane agility drills, the only big guys with better times were Beasley and Richard Hendrix. In the 3/4 court spring, he was certainly nothing special, but beat such allegedly superior athletes as DeAndre Jordan, Anthony Randolph, Davon Jefferson, Darnell Jackson and Keith Brumbaugh. Again, I don't pretend he's a great athlete by NBA standards, but for his position and size I think he's going to be just fine, especially if he continues to work on his conditioning and body. Link: http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre...ge=&year=2008&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=0&sort=9


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## Mateo

Well, you said that you were concerned about him fouling... so if you don't think athleticism is the culprit then what is..?


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## luther

His athleticism is limited: he's no top-flight NBA athlete at any position. I just don't think he's an awful athlete. And from what I've seen, he's not a particularly good defender anyway. As a rookie, he's pretty much going to get killed regardless. Then, being just under 6-10 in shoes, he's shorter than a lot of guys he'll be against. As I said, I think a lot of PFs would be able to face him up, and centers will be able to post him up. I am hopeful he's going to be able to become a competent defender, but this season, I'm not optimistic on that front.


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## LionOfJudah

luther said:


> His athleticism is limited: he's no top-flight NBA athlete at any position. I just don't think he's an awful athlete. And from what I've seen, he's not a particularly good defender anyway. As a rookie, he's pretty much going to get killed regardless. Then, being just under 6-10 in shoes, he's shorter than a lot of guys he'll be against. As I said, I think a lot of PFs would be able to face him up, and centers will be able to post him up. I am hopeful he's going to be able to become a competent defender, but this season, I'm not optimistic on that front.


He must be playing in 2" heels cause I thought he measured 6'8" and some change. :laugH:

Either way I think his conditioning plays a part into his foul troubles in addition to his average athleticism. Love can work on his conditioning but bigs playing tired and sloppy in college can translate into a ton of bench time in the NBA. Write it down, Love's 1st NBA poster will be of someone dunking on his tired *** not for anything he does on the offensive end.


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## Mr. Hobbes

He's lost a lot of weight since the college season, and nobody has seen him play since. It's unfair to judge his athleticism until summer league.


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## LionOfJudah

Chan said:


> He's lost a lot of weight since the college season, and nobody has seen him play since. It's unfair to judge his athleticism until summer league.


He'll have to show up after loosing weight to play with men his size and probably stronger than him on a consistent basis for the 1st time in his career. I can't judge his athleticism at this point but I can tell you I was far from impressed only a few months ago. When facing better athletes Love looked weak and there's only going to be more of that in the NBA, hopefully just early in his career. His (recent) dedication is impressive but you can't expect the world in only 4 months when he's play players with that type of dedication their entire careers. It'll be a rough rookie season but lucky for him he has someone else who will help shoulder the load in the paint with Al Jefferson. We'll see how it plays out but he really was the last person I would of wanted to end up with early in the draft. At least the Twolves have more to show from the draft than just Love.


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## JuX

I have seen Love play (once in high school and few times at UCLA) only a couple times and it was pretty too early to pass judgment on him and his ability to play the defense with his level of athleticism. I hate for young players to excessively foul others, it's truly a pain in the *** but they will learn.


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## jokeaward

Some of the best PFs ever are 6'9" (Karl), Duncan who doesn't need much lift, and Barkley who was 6'6" on a good day.


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## LionOfJudah

jokeaward said:


> Some of the best PFs ever are 6'9" (Karl), Duncan who doesn't need much lift, and Barkley who was 6'6" on a good day.


:lol:

Love shouldn't even be mentioned in the same thread as Duncan and Barkley.


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## luther

stevemc said:


> :lol:
> 
> Love shouldn't even be mentioned in the same thread as Duncan and Barkley.


Of course he should, in that case, because he was talking about heights. And it's entirely relevant. Just like I can say that Michael Jordan and Doug West were both about 6-6.


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## Mateo

Well this thread is really about whether Love will foul too much, not about his physical characteristics.


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## Dre

He's going to foul even more if he has to play Centers nightly.

And physical characteristics have a lot to do with it. Most players overfoul because they're athletically/physically inferior and try to make up for it by being physical on defense.


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## jokeaward

stevemc said:


> :lol:
> 
> Love shouldn't even be mentioned in the same thread as Duncan and Barkley.


How good were they at 19?

You'll need as much or more NBA evidence to show Love is so bad than that he's that good, based on what he's done so far.

And before last year David West was "LOL" vs Timmy maybe, but now look at it.


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## LionOfJudah

jokeaward said:


> How good were they at 19?
> 
> You'll need as much or more NBA evidence to show Love is so bad than that he's that good, based on what he's done so far.
> 
> And before last year David West was "LOL" vs Timmy maybe, but now look at it.


If Love is starting after 3 years in the league it's better than I expected honestly. I judge players when they actually play talent not on potential and (great white) hype. Like I said earlier, he's about to face players how have show their dedication to their bodies and conditioning longer than 4 months. There's more players like Memphis' Dorsey in the league to make him look slow and out of shape than people want to remember. I'll make the haterific claim that the kid is going to smell like jock strap sweat from being posterized so much his rookie season. 

BTW, I'll come over to your house and give you a ZJ if Love ever gets mentioned in serious MVP talks almost every other year like Tim Duncan. It's not going to happen. I'm usually one not to make outlandish claims but seriously theres optimistic and full of... Once Timmy and other All-Stars were mentioned this thread left optimistic.


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## luther

That "great white" comment is bull****. I am so ****ing sick of race-based comments regarding sports. Yeah, all black athletes are athletically superior but natural athletes, not intelligent ones. White guys are smart, but slow footed. Euros are good shooters. South Americans are floppers. Chinese guys are all soft. Africans are like black Americans, only more so--no skill, all raw talent. Jesus ****, so damn boring.


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## jokeaward

I never said he would be as good as Tim Duncan, I said he can be physically mentioned with him for doing basketball things. A lot of guys can do those things, they just can't do them consistently. Eddy Curry can make those hook shots and post moves, and physically he could defend if he had the drive.

Nowitzki and Tom Chambers can barely move, right?

Kevin Love gets a lot of hype because he score a lot of points and gets a lot of rebounds. Aside from that he's apparently the Pillsbury Doughboy or at least Tractor Traylor.

I'd say at this point he gets as much or more of the biased hate because he will never do a 360 dunk or what have you.


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## LionOfJudah

luther said:


> That "great white" comment is bull****. I am so ****ing sick of race-based comments regarding sports. Yeah, all black athletes are athletically superior but natural athletes, not intelligent ones. White guys are smart, but slow footed. Euros are good shooters. South Americans are floppers. Chinese guys are all soft. Africans are like black Americans, only more so--no skill, all raw talent. Jesus ****, so damn boring.


Actually, I'm tired of white kids acting interested in basketball again just because some white college player is getting mad media hype. (see: Adam Morrison)

It's not a stereotype that he's unathletic, it's what played out in front of a national audience vs Memphis' athletic bigs. 




Anyway, I hear you JW. I think Love's ceiling is a Brad Miller type player minus the D. Maybe more like an old CWebb. Crafty with the ball for his size but always a defensive liability against any superior athletes. Which isn't a terrible thing.


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## luther

stevemc said:


> Actually, I'm tired of white kids acting interested in basketball again just because some white college player is getting mad media hype. (see: Adam Morrison)


So white kids weren't interested in basketball all along, and they're acting now? Jordan wasn't an icon to them? My white basketball-loving friends were frauds, I guess. I'm a little pissed that I was lied to.


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## jokeaward

2000 posts in this forum now.


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## LionOfJudah

luther said:


> So white kids weren't interested in basketball all along, and they're acting now? Jordan wasn't an icon to them? My white basketball-loving friends were frauds, I guess. I'm a little pissed that I was lied to.


If they've been fans all along why would they pick up a sudden interest in basketball again? It's cool if you haven't seen or know what I'm talking about but it's out there. It's the same type fans who stopped watching basketball after Jordan over took Bird as an NBA icon.


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## luther

stevemc said:


> If they've been fans all along why would they pick up a sudden interest in basketball again? It's cool if you haven't seen or know what I'm talking about but it's out there. It's the same type fans who stopped watching basketball after Jordan over took Bird as an NBA icon.


Whoever those people may be, I've never noticed them, probably because I only discuss and play basketball with people who like it. Not racist idiots.


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## bruno34115

stevemc said:


> If they've been fans all along why would they pick up a sudden interest in basketball again? It's cool if you haven't seen or know what I'm talking about but it's out there. It's the same type fans who stopped watching basketball after Jordan over took Bird as an NBA icon.


Wtf are you talking about man? lol


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## Mr. Hobbes

stevemc said:


> If they've been fans all along why would they pick up a sudden interest in basketball again? It's cool if you haven't seen or know what I'm talking about but it's out there. It's the same type fans who stopped watching basketball after Jordan over took Bird as an NBA icon.


You're saying people stopped watching basketball during the mid-80s, and started watching again because of Adam Morrison and Kevin Love. That's really, really stupid.

I don't see anything wrong with people liking the great white hype. Same deal with what Yao did for China, Morrison/Love/Hansbrough could bring more fans into the league. There's something wrong with you if you're 'tired' of it. And by something wrong, I mean your discriminatory view about white players.


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## nets1fan102290

i think love will be a foulcoholic for a little bit untill he gets used to all the athletic players


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## ballocks

my opinion doesn't matter but i feel the wolves had a tough draft. i'm just not a big kevin love fan. i'm always skeptical of players who vault up the draft ladder after the season has ended. i mean, what has changed? i think he will be a disappointment. the last mock draft any manager should bother viewing is the one done after the final four, imo. the changes seen in april, may and june are often driven exclusively by hype- and hype kills. 

i wouldn't have necessarily agreed with oj mayo either, but i do agree that he has the much-ballyhooed 'upside'. still, i wouldn't necessarily have been happy with him either.

i believe the wolves had a real opportunity to solidify their frontcourt for at least 5 years with brook lopez. i think brook's drop to 10 had as much to do with robin as it had to do with himself- the longer we got from the ncaa's, the more we forgot just how different these players were and, in the end, managed to somehow group them together in the mid-first.

there were others who missed brook, of course, it wasn't just the wolves, but the fact that minnesota walked away from the no.3 pick with only kevin love on their hands is tough. i like mike miller, i would've normally seen that as a coup, but minnesota (imo) needs to lay a foundation- and miller's not that kind of player. i think said foundation would've been laid with a jefferson/lopez frontcourt, which would have given them the flexibility to make a variety of other moves in the future. instead, they got yet another swingman (miller) and a "post threat" who, imo, will have trouble translating his game to the nba. and i mean, he wasn't exactly a dominant post presence to begin with. and the loss of flexibility is key- if they underachieve now, they'll be in a much tougher position to begin anew than if they had underachieved with brook lopez.

if minnesota can make it work with this group, i'll be surprised. i think they wasted an opportunity- and coming from toronto, you know i've seen my share of missed opportunities. 

peace


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## LionOfJudah

Chan said:


> You're saying people stopped watching basketball during the mid-80s, and started watching again because of Adam Morrison and Kevin Love. That's really, really stupid.


Stopped watching Pro Basketball and have taken to College Basketball due to the increased role of white players until the recent over 19 rule is what I meant.



> I don't see anything wrong with people liking the great white hype. Same deal with what Yao did for China, Morrison/Love/Hansbrough could bring more fans into the league. There's something wrong with you if you're 'tired' of it. And by something wrong, I mean your discriminatory view about white players.


Discriminatory isn't the word, realistic view of players is more like it. Inflating a players value/skill/worth whatever because he's white is discriminatory. Liking a player for his ethnic background is technically racist by definition. 

It's obvious that no one here is from the South where ignorance I've been describing still runs wild. Watching a player for his skin color is racist no matter what color it is. You haven't heard the things said at bars where people still call basketball 'N' ball swearing Dirk or Ginobli are the greatest "real" basketball players in the league and Bird is still better than Jordan. :sour:

It's hard not to be sour over people hyping up white players when racist people in Texas do it enough for everyone.

This is way of subject, let's get back on subject.. Everyone says draft bigs over guards since talent guards are a dime a dozen in the league. How many of those bigs even pan out tho? How about undersized bigs?


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## luther

ballocks said:


> my opinion doesn't matter but i feel the wolves had a tough draft. i'm just not a big kevin love fan. i'm always skeptical of players who vault up the draft ladder after the season has ended. i mean, what has changed? i think he will be a disappointment. the last mock draft any manager should bother viewing is the one done after the final four, imo. the changes seen in april, may and june are often driven exclusively by hype- and hype kills.


I don't think Love was an example of extreme last-second climbing. Sure, he got some good press for losing weight, but he had been projected as a 5-10 type pick most all season long. And he went 5th. This isn't a Patrick O'Bryant / Nikoloz Tskitishvilli / Dontae Jones / Bryce Drew situation. (Or for that matter, an Alexis Ajinca, who climbed late due to great workouts--not in-game play. And I think he'll prove to have been taken too high.)


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## luther

stevemc said:


> It's obvious that no one here is from the South where ignorance I've been describing still runs wild.


Nope. I recommend moving north. I don't know how a guy could make it 10 minutes without getting his *** kicked by some dumb *******. Sure, we have our share of idiots, too, but it's not anything even remotely like what you're talking about. Not even close. And hell, come to Minneapolis in summer and maybe you'll be comfortable in the 90 degree heat ... then ease into those subzero winters.


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## Mr. Hobbes

stevemc said:


> Stopped watching Pro Basketball and have taken to College Basketball due to the increased role of white players until the recent over 19 rule is what I meant.
> 
> 
> Discriminatory isn't the word, realistic view of players is more like it. Inflating a players value/skill/worth whatever because he's white is discriminatory. Liking a player for his ethnic background is technically racist by definition.
> 
> It's obvious that no one here is from the South where ignorance I've been describing still runs wild. Watching a player for his skin color is racist no matter what color it is. You haven't heard the things said at bars where people still call basketball 'N' ball swearing Dirk or Ginobli are the greatest "real" basketball players in the league and Bird is still better than Jordan. :sour:
> 
> It's hard not to be sour over people hyping up white players when racist people in Texas do it enough for everyone.


That isn't as big of a niche as you think it is. And watching a player for his skin color is only racist when it is discriminatory. China rooting for Yao isn't racist.



> This is way of subject, let's get back on subject.. Everyone says draft bigs over guards since talent guards are a dime a dozen in the league. How many of those bigs even pan out tho? How about undersized bigs?


Love isn't your typical Corliss Williamson/Marcus Fizer type undersized big. No 'undersized big' has had his skillset before.


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## ballocks

luther said:


> I don't think Love was an example of extreme last-second climbing. Sure, he got some good press for losing weight, but he had been projected as a *5-10 type pick most all season long*. And he went 5th. This isn't a Patrick O'Bryant / Nikoloz Tskitishvilli / Dontae Jones / Bryce Drew situation. (Or for that matter, an Alexis Ajinca, who climbed late due to great workouts--not in-game play. And I think he'll prove to have been taken too high.)


for the sake of your wolves, i hope you're right. but i think love was generally #10-20 all year (at least on nbadraft.net)... and i honestly can't remember him being above 15. i seem to recall him starting (or maybe _finishing_) the tournament at #16 or something... and from there it began.

i guess it doesn't matter now. hopefully i'm full of it!

peace


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## LionOfJudah

Chan said:


> That isn't as big of a niche as you think it is. And watching a player for his skin color is only racist when it is discriminatory. China rooting for Yao isn't racist.


 By definition it's a decision determined by race which can be deemed 'racist'. Being Chinese and only rooting for Yao and Yi (don't forget the 7' Wang either heh) would be racist. Just like a white guy only rooting for white players. 




Chan said:


> Love isn't your typical Corliss Williamson/Marcus Fizer type undersized big. No 'undersized big' has had his skillset before.


Biggest issue is that he's probably going to be playing center for the Wolves. Corliss and Fizer were both undersized for by PF standards which is a big difference, even if there's fewer real centers in the league. Off the top of my head I can only recall one center to make it in recent years under 6'10" would be Emeka. Okafor may not have the crafty ball handling or range but he plays like a man in the paint.


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## LionOfJudah

luther said:


> Nope. I recommend moving north. I don't know how a guy could make it 10 minutes without getting his *** kicked by some dumb *******. Sure, we have our share of idiots, too, but it's not anything even remotely like what you're talking about. Not even close. And hell, come to Minneapolis in summer and maybe you'll be comfortable in the 90 degree heat ... then ease into those subzero winters.


If I make it that far North I'm going to keep going, eh? 

Living in Austin (the little liberal ******* of Texas, as some call it), it's not as bad as other areas but not everyone is in the Austin mindset who lives here.


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## jokeaward

Minnesota needs players, not just young players.

How many great foundations just from drafted players have there been recently? Odom, Butler, and Wade? They cashed in for Shaq. Boston cashed in once it wasn't PP, Oden/Durant, and Jefferson. Marbury and KG? Ha. They had Googs anyway. VC and T-Mac? Marbury, Amare, and Marion?

Detroit only drafted Prince (for major players, and Okur if he counts).

KG's best teams are with Cassell, Sprewell, Allen, and Pierce, all in their first years together. Jefferson isn't KG but I would rather just put players around him and not bank on the team gelling from a core that's intact for 4 years.


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## Ruff Draft

He's going to get rookie fouls just like they always do. I expect the bigger/old players to have their way with him here and there, but he is too smart to let something like that bring his game down. He's going to adjust for the best of his career.


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## luther

jokeaward said:


> Minnesota needs players, not just young players.
> 
> How many great foundations just from drafted players have there been recently? Odom, Butler, and Wade? They cashed in for Shaq. Boston cashed in once it wasn't PP, Oden/Durant, and Jefferson. Marbury and KG? Ha. They had Googs anyway. VC and T-Mac? Marbury, Amare, and Marion?
> 
> Detroit only drafted Prince (for major players, and Okur if he counts).
> 
> KG's best teams are with Cassell, Sprewell, Allen, and Pierce, all in their first years together. Jefferson isn't KG but I would rather just put players around him and not bank on the team gelling from a core that's intact for 4 years.


You know that Odom wasn't drafted by Miami and Marbury wasn't drafted by either Minnesota (although close enough) or Phoenix, right? Your examples of cores that were drafted by a team doesn't really work. But your point is legit and one I've been saying elsewhere: you can't count on just building your own team from the ground up because players don't stick around that long anyway.


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## jokeaward

I don't count being drafted by the Clippers, that's just a prison sentence other than 05-06.

Marbury.... okay that was a reach, but those three were supposed to be "triplets" especially after testing the Spurs and boom, they trade him for McDyess and filler, Joe Johnson plays PG and they sign Nash later.

The Mavs didn't draft Nash or Finley but they were still a unit with Dirk.

I'm thinking the last time it really, really worked drafting players really closely was Kemp and GP. Then Horace and Pippen for Chicago.


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## Redeemed

jokeaward said:


> Some of the best PFs ever are 6'9" (Karl), Duncan who doesn't need much lift, and Barkley who was 6'6" on a good day.


duncan is 6'11-7'0


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## rocketeer

stevemc said:


> It's obvious that no one here is from the South where ignorance I've been describing still runs wild. Watching a player for his skin color is racist no matter what color it is. You haven't heard the things said at bars where people still call basketball 'N' ball swearing Dirk or Ginobli are the greatest "real" basketball players in the league and Bird is still better than Jordan. :sour:


what are you talking about?


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## LionOfJudah

rocketeer said:


> what are you talking about?


Racist sports fans. If you haven't seen them yourself call yourself lucky.


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## rocketeer

stevemc said:


> Racist sports fans. If you haven't seen them yourself call yourself lucky.


i've lived in texas my whole life and haven't seen any of the things you are talking about.


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## jokeaward

DienerTime said:


> duncan is 6'11-7'0


6'9" (Karl Malone)
or
6'9" - Karl Malone
Doesn't get much lift - Duncan. Yes he's 7'. He CAN get a bit of lift but often doesn't use it. Usually there's a foot or two on the ground.
6'6" ish - Barkley

Sorry for confusion.

If Duncan had the same technique and a bit less size, he'd be great anyway. Now it's up to Love. He definitely won't be young Karl Malone or Amare, but he won't be Stro Swift or Tyrus Thomas either with plenty of athleticism but only glimpses of elite play.


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## LionOfJudah

rocketeer said:


> i've lived in texas my whole life and haven't seen any of the things you are talking about.


Question, is what part? I've lived all over rural central Texas growing up and have heard similar things from various hicks.


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## Mateo

he confirmed our fears about this last night.


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## roux

Mateo said:


> he confirmed our fears about this last night.


relax, Yi had like 9 fouls or something ridiculous in his first summer league game, he ended up not being a hack, and Love is a much better player than Yi in my opinion.


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## LionOfJudah

Still summer league... only a fraction of these players will see regular season PT so it's really hard to judge anything outside of a player being clearly better than the rest of the competition. Only thing we really find out is if a player is good enough to be on the bench in the NBA. Everything else is just more speculation. 

Has Love had a taste of any real NBA bigs yet or have they all been guys trying to make a team?


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## luther

stevemc said:


> Has Love had a taste of any real NBA bigs yet or have they all been guys trying to make a team?


It's only been one game, so there isn't a large sample to go by. It was against Dallas, whose starting center was former NBA player Pape Sow. The starting forwards were Shan Foster and James Singleton--both really wings. Charles Rhodes (rookie, Miss. St.) and Reyshawn Terry (former UNC) were the bigger reserves. So while he wasn't exactly matched up against NBA-quality post players, he actually probably had some matchup issues, going against a lot of natural wing players.


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## Mateo

stevemc said:


> Still summer league... only a fraction of these players will see regular season PT so it's really hard to judge anything outside of a player being clearly better than the rest of the competition. Only thing we really find out is if a player is good enough to be on the bench in the NBA. Everything else is just more speculation.
> 
> Has Love had a taste of any real NBA bigs yet or have they all been guys trying to make a team?


Shouldn't it be easier to avoid foul trouble against scrubs than against good NBA quality players who, you know, have talent and quickness and such?


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## luther

Mateo said:


> Shouldn't it be easier to avoid foul trouble against scrubs than against good NBA quality players who, you know, have talent and quickness and such?


That's what I'm thinking. But a lot of players have the same issue, including guys who have already been in the NBA. So we can't read all THAT much into one game. And regardless, as we've talked about, it's probably safe to say that he's going to have foul trouble at least early this regular season, if not throughout. Young bigs almost always do. But I like some of his quotes, that he was talking to refs to ask about specifics of fouls and vowing to learn from his mistakes. That's encouraging, as opposed to a "what? I didn't foul him. F you" attitude, which would just lead to more fouls.


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## LionOfJudah

It's funny we never hear about a Laker or Spur player being a "foulaholic"

:whoknows:


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