# OT: Cleveland is a mess right now.



## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Varejao and Pavlovic are still holding out after being lowballed by the Cavs. Doesn't look like they will report to camp. 

Lebron is busy hosting Saturday Night Live instead of preparing for the season. 

Ilgauskis is 32 this year and Donyell is 34 and Eric Snow is 34.

$13M / year Hughes is vastly overrated and often injured.

Gooden is decent but also overrated.

Newble and Damon Jones are busts.

They have $62M+ in cap spaced tied up with Lebron, Hughes, Gooden, Z, Donyell, Snow, Damon Jones this year and next (what was Ferry thinking?).

They just traded for Cedric Simmons (supposed cover for Anderson Varejao) and signed Devin Brown (supposed cover for Sasha Pavlovic).

If they don't sign AV and Pavlovic, they are going to be hurting big time. Gonna start reminding me of Garnett in Minnesota for Lebron.


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## Mr.Montross (Sep 24, 2005)

lougehrig said:


> Varejao and Pavlovic are still holding out after being lowballed by the Cavs. Doesn't look like they will report to camp.
> 
> Lebron is busy hosting Saturday Night Live instead of preparing for the season.
> 
> ...


I'd be surprised if Cavs make it to the Finals again, but don't underestimate Lebron.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Mr.Montross said:


> I'd be surprised if Cavs make it to the Finals again, but don't underestimate Lebron.


I think Cleveland was widely considered one of the worst Finals teams in NBA history. I can't see them making it too far with that geriatric lineup. They are going to burn Lebron out. Remember he is only signed for another 3 years and can opt out in the summer of 2010.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

lougehrig said:


> Varejao and Pavlovic are still holding out after being lowballed by the Cavs. Doesn't look like they will report to camp.
> 
> Lebron is busy hosting Saturday Night Live instead of preparing for the season.
> 
> ...


No offense, but you clearly don't know very much about the Cleveland Cavaliers. 

The free agents were not lowballed. Have you been paying attention to the situation at all?

Of the older players you mention, only Ilgauskas plays a major role for the team. Hughes has actually been working on his shot all summer, so while he was really bad last year, it's possible he could significantly improve that part of his game this year (even though I'm skeptical). 

But seriously, you should learn more about the negotiations between the Cavs and their free agents before you criticize the organization for the fact that they haven't been signed.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Brandname said:


> But seriously, you should learn more about the negotiations between the Cavs and their free agents before you criticize the organization for the fact that they haven't been signed.


So why don't they just sign those guys for $5M / year (SP) and $10M / year (AV)? Oh because their cap spaced is consumed with players like Marshall, Snow, Gooden, Hughes, Z, Damon Jones. Who signed those players to those contracts? Wasn't it the organization? Wasn't it Ferry?

AV asking for $10M / season is consistent with young bigs with potential like Curry, Nene, Chandler, Dalembert, etc. Why should be take less? 

All I know, this is first time I've heard NBA players threaten to go to Europe while being a restricted free agent. That tells me the Cavs organization has some responsibility for this happening.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

I'd be surprised if they don't win around 50 games again. I suspect Verajao and Pavlovic will be suited up opening night and Ilgauskus is the only guy whose age concerns me.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

What teams are in a position to bid on Varejao and Pavlovic (assuming both are asking for more than the MLE)? Why haven't they made the offers already?

My guess is the that the worst case scenario for Cleveland is that Pavlovic signs for the qualifying offer and becomes an unrestricted free agent next year. The problem for Varejao, is that apparently no other NBA team is willing to offer him what he is asking, 

If by some miracle Cleveland fails to sign one or both players and they leave without compensation, I agree that they are screwed. Otherwise, Cleveland will still be a tough team to beat this season, and is probably the Bulls main competition for top seed in the east.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

lougehrig said:


> I think Cleveland was widely considered one of the worst Finals teams in NBA history.


How quickly people have forgot the '99 Knicks.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

lougehrig said:


> So why don't they just sign those guys for $5M / year (SP) and $10M / year (AV)?


because they aren't worth that much and there is no other team(in the nba or anywhere else in the world) that would be willing to pay them that much.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> because they aren't worth that much and there is no other team(in the nba or anywhere else in the world) that would be willing to pay them that much.


Not true. There isn't any teams with available cap space that are willing to pay that much. Why should they accept a contract that is considerably less because there isn't any other offers coming in? Why not pay their fair market value regardless of competition. That's what good organizations do.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

lougehrig said:


> Not true. There isn't any teams with available cap space that are willing to pay that much. Why should they accept a contract that is considerably less because there isn't any other offers coming in? Why not pay their fair market value regardless of competition. That's what good organizations do.


market value for varejao is not 10 mil. market value for pavlovic isn't 5 mil.

if the cavs give me long term deals worth that much, it's just going to be the same thing they already have with the huge deals for hughes and ilguaskas. they've hopefully learned from those mistakes and aren't going to repeat them here.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Varejao is worth what the Cavs are offering him,six million.Pavlovic isn't as good as Devin Brown and the only reason that Cleveland cares about him is that their backcourt was so horrible last year.He'll be lucky if Cleveland doesn't retract the QO.Not a chance in hell anyone else pays him 2.8 million for next season.It's not happening because he's not worth that much.


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## Mr.Montross (Sep 24, 2005)

lougehrig said:


> I think Cleveland was widely considered one of the worst Finals teams in NBA history. I can't see them making it too far with that geriatric lineup. They are going to burn Lebron out. Remember he is only signed for another 3 years and can opt out in the summer of 2010.


So, I see, you are very willing to underestimate Lebron.

Let's see what comes out in the Stern-controlled wash.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

I think Ferry is doing the right thing in waiting it out and not overpaying. He has the leverage, so why not use it? There might be bad feelings for a while, but having cap-friendly, tradeable contracts is worth that.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

lougehrig said:


> So why don't they just sign those guys for $5M / year (SP) and $10M / year (AV)? Oh because their cap spaced is consumed with players like Marshall, Snow, Gooden, Hughes, Z, Damon Jones. Who signed those players to those contracts? Wasn't it the organization? Wasn't it Ferry?
> 
> AV asking for $10M / season is consistent with young bigs with potential like Curry, Nene, Chandler, Dalembert, etc. Why should be take less?
> 
> All I know, this is first time I've heard NBA players threaten to go to Europe while being a restricted free agent. That tells me the Cavs organization has some responsibility for this happening.


EDIT Because they're not worth that much.

You complain about bad contracts and then bash the Cavs' unwillingness to hand out more bad contracts.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Brandname said:


> EDIT? Because they're not worth that much.
> 
> You complain about bad contracts and then bash the Cavs' unwillingness to hand out more bad contracts.


EDIT? I'm not complaining. Honestly I could care less about the Cavs'. Just pointing out the obvious. It's one day before camp start and 2 of their top 8 players aren't in camp. That's called a mess in my book. So they are compounding their past bad contracts by being gun shy when it comes to offering young players new contracts. Pavlovic is 23 and Varejao is 25. That seems alot more compatible with Lebron's 22. So the end result is that in 3 years, Z, Gooden, Snow, Damon Jones, Hughes, Varejao, Pavlovic will all be gone. Then Lebron won't feel bad when he goes to New York as a free agent.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

lougehrig said:


> EDIT? I'm not complaining. Honestly I could care less about the Cavs'. Just pointing out the obvious. It's one day before camp start and 2 of their top 8 players aren't in camp. That's called a mess in my book. So they are compounding their past bad contracts by being gun shy when it comes to offering young players new contracts. Pavlovic is 23 and Varejao is 25. That seems alot more compatible with Lebron's 22. So the end result is that in 3 years, Z, Gooden, Snow, Damon Jones, Hughes, Varejao, Pavlovic will all be gone. Then Lebron won't feel bad when he goes to New York as a free agent.


compounding their mistakes of the past would be continuing to make those mistakes now. by instead offering varejao and pavlovic reasonable deals(that are pretty much what they are worth) the cavs are trying to not make those same mistakes again. this is a good thing for lebron and the cavs. sign them to the deals you suggest and the chances of lebron leaving would be greater because it would be hard for the team to ever improve with 15 mil a year tied up in those two players.


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## Mr.Montross (Sep 24, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> compounding their mistakes of the past would be continuing to make those mistakes now. by instead offering varejao and pavlovic reasonable deals(that are pretty much what they are worth) the cavs are trying to not make those same mistakes again. this is a good thing for lebron and the cavs. sign them to the deals you suggest and the chances of lebron leaving would be greater because it would be hard for the team to ever improve with 15 mil a year tied up in those two players.


Offering AV a contract starting at $6 mil is reasonable. 

Sasha accepting a QO of $2.8 mil is reasonable.

And underestimating Lebron is a mistake, NBA marketing-wise.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

lougehrig said:


> WTF? I'm not complaining. Honestly I could care less about the Cavs'. Just pointing out the obvious. It's one day before camp start and 2 of their top 8 players aren't in camp. That's called a mess in my book. So they are compounding their past bad contracts by being gun shy when it comes to offering young players new contracts. Pavlovic is 23 and Varejao is 25. That seems alot more compatible with Lebron's 22. So the end result is that in 3 years, Z, Gooden, Snow, Damon Jones, Hughes, Varejao, Pavlovic will all be gone. Then Lebron won't feel bad when he goes to New York as a free agent.


I'm not trying to argue that things are wonderful. In fact, Cornstein and Fegan have been nothing short of a pain in the *** throughout this whole process. But from a Cavs fan's perspective, I am glad that the organization isn't giving in to the ridiculous demands. They are offering reasonable contracts for both players, which is all I can ask for. 10 million is way too much for a guy like AV (Nene, coincidentally also a client of Fegan, is way overpaid as well). Presumably he guaranteed the same type of deal to AV and now he can't deliver. Whether we were 20 million under the cap or 20 million over the cap, we aren't going to give Varejao 10 million dollars per year. He's just not worth that much.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Mr.Montross said:


> Offering AV a contract starting at $6 mil is reasonable.
> 
> Sasha accepting a QO of $2.8 mil is reasonable.
> 
> And underestimating Lebron is a mistake, NBA marketing-wise.


right.

he said varejao 10 mil and pavlovic 5 mil. those are not reasonable.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Brandname said:


> I'm not trying to argue that things are wonderful. In fact, Cornstein and Fegan have been nothing short of a pain in the *** throughout this whole process. But from a Cavs fan's perspective, I am glad that the organization isn't giving in to the ridiculous demands. They are offering reasonable contracts for both players, which is all I can ask for. 10 million is way too much for a guy like AV (Nene, coincidentally also a client of Fegan, is way overpaid as well). Presumably he guaranteed the same type of deal to AV and now he can't deliver. Whether we were 20 million under the cap or 20 million over the cap, we aren't going to give Varejao 10 million dollars per year. He's just not worth that much.


Varejao is a key part of your team. I'm sure the Cavs could sign him for 5 years $40M if they wanted to. But they are holding out for $6M / year. Why? The guy will be starting before you know it and averaging 10 ppg / 10 rpg in no time. 

Pavlovic is also important, IMHO. He averaged 12.4 ppg in 31+ minutes after the all-star break last year. The guy is 23 years old and going to become a better defender. Surely he is worth $4-5M a year. If MoPete can get $23M over 4 years, surely this guy can.

Why penny pinch? Why piss off Lebron by trying to save a few million in luxury cap money. Doesn't Lebron's presence alone warrant tens of millions of dollars in extra annual revenue? Why risk that by not resigning your core? If they don't take care of a core of players around Lebron, he can leave in 3 years. The best player in the game, the biggest draw, the biggest revenue maker can be a free agent in 3 years. That's reason enough to slightly overpay to keep your young guys and absorb luxury tax payments.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

lougehrig said:


> Varejao is a key part of your team. I'm sure the Cavs could sign him for 5 years $40M if they wanted to. But they are holding out for $6M / year. Why? The guy will be starting before you know it and averaging 10 ppg / 10 rpg in no time.
> 
> Pavlovic is also important, IMHO. He averaged 12.4 ppg in 31+ minutes after the all-star break last year. The guy is 23 years old and going to become a better defender. Surely he is worth $4-5M a year. If MoPete can get $23M over 4 years, surely this guy can.
> 
> Why penny pinch? Why piss off Lebron by trying to save a few million in luxury cap money. Doesn't Lebron's presence alone warrant tens of millions of dollars in extra annual revenue? Why risk that by not resigning your core? If they don't take care of a core of players around Lebron, he can leave in 3 years. The best player in the game, the biggest draw, the biggest revenue maker can be a free agent in 3 years. That's reason enough to slightly overpay to keep your young guys and absorb luxury tax payments.


Other players get more money than they are worth because there are multiple teams bidding for their services. This is not the case with AV or Pavs because they are restricted.

It would be pointless for the Cavs to give them more money because they'd just be bidding against themselves. It would be REALLY dumb for AV to try to take the QO this year and become a UFA next year. Not only would he be missing out on about 5 MM that he'd make this year, he'd also risk injury during the season with a 1 yr contract. 

Just because we happen to have a young phenom on our team that we want to keep does not justify overpaying players 4 million dollars PER YEAR to keep them. That will only make the future situation worse.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Brandname said:


> Just because we happen to have a young phenom on our team that we want to keep does not justify overpaying players 4 million dollars PER YEAR to keep them. That will only make the future situation worse.


Let me ask you this? Would Lebron be happier if they signed Varejao and Pavlovic to 5 year extensions? Would Lebron be more apt to stay in Cleveland? If the answer is yes, then I'd say it's worth an extra $4M per season. Surely Lebron will make the Cavs organization 10 times that amount if you convince him to stay.

I think New York is on course for $20M in cap space in 2010.

They should be trying to dump other players like Marshall or Z or Gooden or Damon Jones instead. That's a way to save money they can pay these guys.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

If anyone else wants to pay these guys that sort of money all they have to do is speak.Cleveland would certainly match if someone offered AV the MLE,and they'd likely match if someone offered Sasha a reasonable deal.Noone has said a peep.Noone seems interested in working out a S&T for these guys at the prices they are looking for.

That would be strange if anyone reasonable thought their value approached what their agents are looking for.If you don't think they are worth that then you can understand perfectly well why noone is all that interested in a S&T.

I don't see anyone showing the least bit of interest and I'm completely nonplussed since I wouldn't expect anyone to get excited about paying above average basketball players twice what they are worth.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

lougehrig said:


> They should be trying to dump other players like Marshall or Z or Gooden or Damon Jones instead. That's a way to save money they can pay these guys.


no one wants those players(except maybe gooden). just like no one wants varejao or pavlovic for the deals they are asking for.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> no one wants those players(except maybe gooden). just like no one wants varejao or pavlovic for the deals they are asking for.


Lebron does. Mike Brown does.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

lougehrig said:


> Lebron does. Mike Brown does.


lebron doesn't. if they give varejao 10 mil a year, it is worse for lebron. that means they have less money to use to surround lebron with good players. it's best for lebron if these players sign for reasonable deals.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

lougehrig said:


> Let me ask you this? Would Lebron be happier if they signed Varejao and Pavlovic to 5 year extensions? Would Lebron be more apt to stay in Cleveland? If the answer is yes, then I'd say it's worth an extra $4M per season. Surely Lebron will make the Cavs organization 10 times that amount if you convince him to stay.
> 
> I think New York is on course for $20M in cap space in 2010.
> 
> They should be trying to dump other players like Marshall or Z or Gooden or Damon Jones instead. That's a way to save money they can pay these guys.


It's not even about the money. Dan Gilbert has billions of dollars, and he's already committed to spending whatever it takes to get the team a title. 

However, this isn't MLB. You don't just sign players to massive contracts because you have the money. You have to keep the team flexible with regards to the cap. If we have all of our players being overpaid, we have no cap flexibility in the future, when our other highly-paid players come off the books. 

As a fan of another team, it's probably easy to just say, "Just pay them whatever they want!" but that's just not how the NBA works. I'm a Cavs fan. I want Sasha and AV to be back so bad I can't even tell you how bad it could be to lose them (especially AV). But I am 100% behind what the organization is doing here, because it's the smart thing to do. You can't just give in to the ridiculous demands of big-ego agents if you are in this situation. 

Keep in mind that reports indicate that Fegan is asking for *MORE THAN* 10 million a year for AV.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

lougehrig said:


> Lebron does. Mike Brown does.


Where did they say this? Do you really think that Lebron and Mike want those players back at that price? They're both quite familiar with CBA regulations.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> that means they have less money to use to surround lebron with good players.


Like?

You'd be hard pressed to tell Lebron that 2 of the teams top 5 players are worth overpaying for in order to maintain continuity.

Bulls fans will tell you. It's hard enough to build assets and get good players.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

lougehrig said:


> Bulls fans will tell you. It's hard enough to build assets and get good players.


Especially if you're hamstrung with ridiculously overpaid players.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

I have heard reports indicating that Fegan asked for 12 million/year for AV from the Cavs.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Brandname said:


> Especially if you're hamstrung with ridiculously overpaid players.


So you're saying the Cavs are reach a rebuilding point where they won't pay anybody above market value even at the expense of team success? That's fine. I don't have a problem with that. I just don't think Lebron or the team or fans will likely be so accepting of this.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

lougehrig said:


> So you're saying the Cavs are reach a rebuilding point where they won't pay anybody above market value even at the expense of team success? That's fine. I don't have a problem with that. I just don't think Lebron or the team or fans will likely be so accepting of this.


No. That's actually not what I was saying at all.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Varejao at $12/M a year is plain old ridiculous. Beyond that, the guy is an RFA. Cleveland doesn't have to do anything at the moment with them. He rates a nice contract, but that's way out of reach for him.

Pavlovic, nice, but not a guy I'd pay huge cash to.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Brandname said:


> No. That's actually not what I was saying at all.


So the Cavs have reached a cross roads. Lebron is going to be a free agent in 3 years. They just made it to the NBA finals. They have two good young players who were crucial to this success and who will only get better and better. What's the Cavs plan? Are they going to commit to building a championship winner 100%? Or are they only going to do it half way and keep just enough decent players to keep Lebron content and to win 50 games a year?


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

lougehrig said:


> So the Cavs have reached a cross roads. Lebron is going to be a free agent in 3 years. They just made it to the NBA finals. They have two good young players who were crucial to this success and who will only get better and better. What's the Cavs plan? Are they going to commit to building a championship winner 100%? Or are they only going to do it half way and keep just enough decent players to keep Lebron content and to win 50 games a year?


Yes, they are committed to building a championship winner 100%. Their current course of action is a better way of doing that than way overpaying their two RFAs. 

As a Bulls fan, I can see how you would want us to become the Knicks. But the organization is making a conscious effort to try to be smart with our money.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

MikeDC said:


> Varejao at $12/M a year is plain old ridiculous. Beyond that, the guy is an RFA. Cleveland doesn't have to do anything at the moment with them. He rates a nice contract, but that's way out of reach for him.
> 
> Pavlovic, nice, but not a guy I'd pay huge cash to.


Yep.

Presumably he started at 12 million/year so he could negotiate the salary "down" to 10 million a year, which is what he's seeking.

But that's almost just as ridiculous, and the Cavs aren't going to do it. I can't blame them.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Brandname said:


> Yep.
> 
> Presumably he started at 12 million/year so he could negotiate the salary "down" to 10 million a year, which is what he's seeking.
> 
> But that's almost just as ridiculous, and the Cavs aren't going to do it. I can't blame them.


So the Cavs are locked in at $62M / year (which they are now w/o AV and SP). How can they improve if the remaining players are aging quickly around Lebron? Isn't that guaranteeing that Lebron will leave? Is an $80M payroll for two years worth keeping Lebron James for another 10 years? I think it is.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

lougehrig said:


> So the Cavs are locked in at $62M / year (which they are now w/o AV and SP). How can they improve if the remaining players are aging quickly around Lebron? Isn't that guaranteeing that Lebron will leave? Is an $80M payroll for two years worth keeping Lebron James for another 10 years? I think it is.


It's amazing how absolutely positive everyone is that Lebron is leaving Cleveland. 

He just got an extension on his contract. Nobody in Cleveland is panicking right now. We're building the team in a smart way so that we're not overloaded with bad contracts in the future. Lebron isn't going anywhere for a long time.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

lougehrig said:


> So the Cavs are locked in at $62M / year (which they are now w/o AV and SP). How can they improve if the remaining players are aging quickly around Lebron? Isn't that guaranteeing that Lebron will leave? Is an $80M payroll for two years worth keeping Lebron James for another 10 years? I think it is.


lebron is on the cavs for at least three more years and at this point there is no reason to expect him to leave. everything the cavs do right now should not be in an attempt to please lebron and make him want to stay. it should be in attempt to win a championship. you don't win championships by paying guys like varejao 10 mil a year or paying guys like pavlovic 5 mil a year.

the cavs are better off not having those guys than ridiculously overpaying them.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

rocketeer said:


> lebron is on the cavs for at least three more years and at this point there is no reason to expect him to leave. everything the cavs do right now should not be in an attempt to please lebron and make him want to stay. it should be in attempt to win a championship. *you don't win championships by paying guys like varejao 10 mil a year or paying guys like pavlovic 5 mil a year.*
> 
> the cavs are better off not having those guys than ridiculously overpaying them.


Exactly. And Lebron knows this, too.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

If AV and Pavlovic were on the Bulls right now in the same situation, Pax and co. would probably be doing the same thing........and they'd be right. Grossly overpaying mediocre players is not a good way to build a contender. And given that they're RFA's and no one else is making offers to them, Cleveland is right not to outbid themselves.

AV is a good guy. Pavlovic, honestly, I think is pretty replaceable, although he's not too bad. Cleveland can probably afford to give them both a little more than what they are asking for, but their current offers are more reasonable than what the players agents' are asking for.

If Cleveland wants Lebron to stay, then the best thing they can probably do is to make sure they have as competitive a team as possible in his contract year, which is 3 years away. Signing both of these guys to grossly overbloated contracts would almost certainly hinder that effort, whereas signing both of these players to reasonable, tradeable contracts would be a good step in that direction.

I don't blame Cleveland for what they are doing.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

Fegan's not having a good year as an agent. Yi was drafted and signed by the Bucks despite Fegan's efforts to get him somewhere else, he thwarted the trade between the T'Wolves and Suns (and no one's going to give Marion 20 mill a year if Marion opt sout of his current contract). And Matt Barnes fired him this summer when he failed to get him an offer - and Barnes had fired his original agent to sign with Fegan.

I don't think Fegan's really good at reading the market.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

Yeah I think rosentahll is right on. The Cavs may just have to take a step back in order to take two steps forward. It would be painful for Cavs fans going to the Finals, losing, then coming back with a lesser team. But Lebron got them there with mediocre help, one good offseason move in the next year or two alone could make the Cavs very scary.

That said I doubt either of these guys leaves Clevland this year, wouldn't be surprised if they both take the QO.

As for the Cavs losing James, doubt it. They would be wise to not sign any ridiculous contracts and just save the money for when Lebron is a free agent. Why? Because as of right now they will have nobody on the books Lebrons next contract year.

Looking at Miami, you have to think Wade is more likely to leave. And Clevland may just have plenty of money for him. James and Wade signed their 3 year contracts at the same time, coincidence?


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Hustle said:


> Looking at Miami, you have to think Wade is more likely to leave. And Clevland may just have plenty of money for him. James and Wade signed their 3 year contracts at the same time, coincidence?


Please don't do that to me. lol


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Brandname said:


> Exactly. And Lebron knows this, too.


And Lebron also knows you don't win championships by pinching pennies and not keeping your young talent. That's why he'll be in New York in 3 years on a team with a $100M payroll.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

lougehrig said:


> Varejao and Pavlovic are still holding out after being lowballed by the Cavs. Doesn't look like they will report to camp.


Neither is worth the money they're asking for, and the market has determined that.



> Lebron is busy hosting Saturday Night Live instead of preparing for the season.


And Peyton Manning's off filming 500 commercials instead of preparing to win a Super Bowl.



> Ilgauskis is 32 this year and Donyell is 34 and Eric Snow is 34.


Yeah, they all suck.



> $13M / year Hughes is vastly overrated and often injured.


He's not overrated anymore. Everyone knows he's horrible.



> Gooden is decent but also overrated.


Actually, he's also horrible.



> Newble and Damon Jones are busts.


Busts? That'd imply they had potential. I think the word you're looking for is..."horrible."



> They have $62M+ in cap spaced tied up with Lebron, Hughes, Gooden, Z, Donyell, Snow, Damon Jones this year and next (what was Ferry thinking?).


Yeah, he's been a pretty horrible GM so far.



> They just traded for Cedric Simmons (supposed cover for Anderson Varejao) and signed Devin Brown (supposed cover for Sasha Pavlovic).
> 
> If they don't sign AV and Pavlovic, they are going to be hurting big time. Gonna start reminding me of Garnett in Minnesota for Lebron.


Pavlovic has just barely risen above "dime-a-dozen" status. He's no loss. Varejao gave them that X-Factor, but on no planet is he worth $10M per year. Let guys like that no-show and sit-out and sulk instead of giving them what they want.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

lougehrig said:


> And Lebron also knows you don't win championships by pinching pennies and not keeping your young talent. That's why he'll be in New York in 3 years on a team with a $100M payroll.


:lol:

And all this time I thought you were serious. You had me going *the whole time*. 

props


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Brandname said:


> :lol:
> 
> And all this time I thought you were serious. You had me going *the whole time*.
> 
> props



Direct quote from Lebron:

LeBron James: "Definitely. I need Sasha and Andy on my team for us to be successful. Not just one of them. I need both of them. I'm very positive about the situation. I would think the organization knows we need those guys."

Hmm....doesn't like Lebron cares about the salary cap.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

lougehrig said:


> Direct quote from Lebron:
> 
> LeBron James: "Definitely. I need Sasha and Andy on my team for us to be successful. Not just one of them. I need both of them. I'm very positive about the situation. I would think the organization knows we need those guys."
> 
> Hmm....doesn't like Lebron cares about the salary cap.


him saying he wants those guys on his team does not mean that he wants those guys to get the ridiculous salaries that you are proposing.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> him saying he wants those guys on his team does not mean that he wants those guys to get the ridiculous salaries that you are proposing.


I see no mention of money or salaries or fiscal responsibility in any of his comments. He knows the organization is making tens of millions on him, why wouldn't he expect them to reinvest that in the one thing he wants? He's not saying Sasha and Andy need to be smarter and sacrifice for the team, he's saying the organization needs to step up and make the necessary commitment to keep those guys.

He says it "The organization knows we need those guys." You can't debate the guy's own words.


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## veve130 (Aug 29, 2007)

yup but it doesnt seem lyk d organsation thinks they need dem as much as lebron does so interesting to see the cavs next year, a team with lebron is always a contender but now da d east is buffing up im not so sure


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

lougehrig said:


> I see no mention of money or salaries or fiscal responsibility in any of his comments. He knows the organization is making tens of millions on him, why wouldn't he expect them to reinvest that in the one thing he wants? He's not saying Sasha and Andy need to be smarter and sacrifice for the team, he's saying the organization needs to step up and make the necessary commitment to keep those guys.
> 
> He says it "The organization knows we need those guys." You can't debate the guy's own words.


Then why not give them both max contracts?

That would ensure their return, and I'm sure that Lebron would be thrilled that we are so proactive in getting them back on the team.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

lougehrig said:


> I see no mention of money or salaries or fiscal responsibility in any of his comments. He knows the organization is making tens of millions on him, why wouldn't he expect them to reinvest that in the one thing he wants? He's not saying Sasha and Andy need to be smarter and sacrifice for the team, he's saying the organization needs to step up and make the necessary commitment to keep those guys.
> 
> He says it "The organization knows we need those guys." You can't debate the guy's own words.


in general players usually don't speak about the salaries of other players and teammates especially when the players are in contract negotiations. you don't mess with another guy's money.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Article from TruHoop about this topic:

"Sobering thoughts as camp opens for the Cavaliers. The Cleveland roster is not great, agreed? I know, I know, I know, they just made the NBA Finals. But is anyone expecting them to make it back without help? James himself -- an extremely politic man -- is unabashed about his disappointment. And when you factor in the free agents they still need to sign (Varejao, Pavlovic) the cap situation is not great in the years to come. Cavalier fans will point out that the team has three years to straighten things out before James is a free agent. I would point out that if he can be a free agent in the summer of 2010, you need to to wow him with a great roster by the summer of 2009. Because if you're going to get anything in return for him -- and you can't let a player like that walk for nothing -- you'll have to trade him before he's a free agent. So that's two or two-and-a-half seasons to wow James before the trading deadline in February 2010. And this is one of them. And the roster so far is no better than last year. One other point: I have been caught in the trap of thinking that only teams with massive cap room will be able to vie for his services in 2010. That'll be a select group, no doubt. But consider this: he makes his main money from endorsements, right? If his NBA salary is not the nut he's counting on, and he's really all about titles, isn't it at least possible that he would sign for the mid-level exception on the team of his choice? (As Brian Windhorst explains, the full mid-level exception is now considered a pretty big contract.)"

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-28-113/Monday-Bullets.html


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

I am JUST SICK about the Cavs troubles. Lebron deserves better...shame he's not going to get it.

Kobe's unhappy about his supporting cast and they're big market. Cleveland is, well, Cleveland. In the immortal words of Super Chicken, "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it."

Seriously, the Cavs are beginning to look very similar to the KG-led T-Wolves. KG cashed a lot of huge checks and was a good soldier for the franchise for a long time. Lebron may find himself in the same position. Maybe he won't be as good a soldier, but this might not help him much...he signed the paper and will have to live with it for a few years.

Superstars are important, but they can't do it alone...just ask Kobe.

Again, my heart bleeds for Lebron and the Cavs.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I've not seen anything to suggest Lebron has Kobe's work habits.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

> *Training camp starts today for Cleveland Cavaliers, probably without Sasha Pavlovic and Anderson Varejao*
> 
> Monday, October 01, 2007*
> 
> ...


Now you know why they haven't been signed yet.

Let me just repeat that: *65 MM over 5 years*.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

That's what I'm asking also...But they knew I was joking.I think that everyone is laughing at Fegan though.Ten million a year for Varejao is hilarious enough.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

I think people are inaccurately trying to look at the Cav's roster on paper. A much better way of looking at the team on paper would be to examine their performance the last two seasons with a more or less identical roster. The biggest thing that seems to be overlooked is that Cleveland ranked 4th in the NBA in defensive efficiency last season. Again, there are few reasons to expect this team to get worse outside of presuming that Varejao will sit out all season and I think that assumption is probably misguided.

If they stagnate or finish a few games worse than last season then they obviously shouldn't be considered the Eastern Conference favorites by any stretch of the imagination but that doesn't mean they're not similar to the same above average team they've been the past couple seasons.


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