# We NEED A Center ...



## Dynasty Raider

*We NEED A Center ... (BUMP)*

Damn ... will Kaman wake up this season?

I don't want to hear about the supposed injuries that may be hindering him. this is the same guy that came in after appendic (sp?) surgery and produced. Now, he mops around 'injured' UNTIL he got the contract he wanted and NOW, he can't play half as good as he has in the past.

I've always questioned his abilities ... he has always lost focus on the court, turning in circles, losing his place, mis-timing his jumps, getting outplayed by smaller centers/guards. What has always gotten to me the most, was his seeming propensity to lose all perspective when away from home: doesn't know which basket to defend, etc.

You may feel sorry for him ... but I content the time given Kaman should have ALWAYS gone to Wilcox.

Just look at the money going down the drain ... wait, STOP ... it's early in the season and he's looking good. He will return to turning circles in the other direction soon, making occasional dunks and they I can eat my words.

Geez ... Damn, with a center to play Mehmet, we could have won this game. Well, hopefully we get to play them again on their court. We MUST win there with this team.


----------



## AK-47

Memo is just a better center than Kaman. Plus, there arn't much better centers out there that you would be able to trade for to get more than kaman. Centers are hard to come by.


----------



## bootstrenf

AK-47 said:


> Memo is just a better center than Kaman. Plus, there arn't much better centers out there that you would be able to trade for to get more than kaman. Centers are hard to come by.



i don't think okur is out and out better, just got the better of him last night...give the kid a chance...


----------



## yamaneko

> I don't want to hear about the supposed injuries that may be hindering him. this is the same guy that came in after appendic (sp?) surgery and produced. Now, he mops around 'injured' UNTIL he got the contract he wanted and NOW, he can't play half as good as he has in the past.


Its not just a matter of coming back from an injury. Hes coming back from months off. Its not like, you stub your toe, youre out for a couple games midseason, then come back. You probably dont lose anything. If you notice with Kaman, its his timing is just way off, and shot ever so off. This is the kind of thing you work out during preseason practice, that he didnt have a chance too. And id imagine its even multiplied for the fact he has ADD. (who knows if the ball has anything to do with it as well...not sure if the ADD will affect him having to play with a new ball).

He is playing half as good as he did last year. Other players on the clippers are not putting up the same numbers as they did last year either, some are doing more. We do not need a center. There is no one we can get right now for the minimum that will do even half as good as kaman is doing now, nor could give us what aaron williams can. What we need is our center Kaman to get into mid season form, what we need is our backup Rebraca to get healthy. 

Okur is not even close to being a better CENTER than Kaman. Okur however is a MUCH M UCH better PF/C Combo since he plays so much on the outside. Kaman wouldnt be able to play PF if his life depended on it, and wouldnt be able to play on the perimeter, even half as well as okur, if his hair depended on it. 

Okur/Kaman was NOT the difference in the game, he did not personally make sure that the jazz were going to win by 25. No one could guard okur in the game. Actually the only time i saw him get really stopped defensively was when MOBLEY was guarding him on a switch....i had said before the game, mobley should guard okur like he did against dirk. 



> but I content the time given Kaman should have ALWAYS gone to Wilcox.


I dont think so. Wilcox would disappear. Kaman always has put in the effort whether he had success or not. There will always be wilcox fans out there, but i dont think many would have preferred giving the contract to wilcox over kaman to be our center of the future.



> Just look at the money going down the drain .


Remember, Injuries, offseason aside, kaman is only making 3.5 million or so this year. How many teams in the league would not pay a center who gets 7 and 5 over 6 games 3.5 million?


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

yamaneko said:


> Okur is not even close to being a better CENTER than Kaman. Okur however is a MUCH M UCH better PF/C Combo since he plays so much on the outside. Kaman wouldnt be able to play PF if his life depended on it, and wouldnt be able to play on the perimeter, even half as well as okur, if his hair depended on it.
> 
> Okur/Kaman was NOT the difference in the game, he did not personally make sure that the jazz were going to win by 25.
> 
> I dont think so. Wilcox would disappear. Kaman always has put in the effort whether he had success or not.
> 
> Remember, Injuries, offseason aside, kaman is only making 3.5 million or so this year. How many teams in the league would not pay a center who gets 7 and 5 over 6 games 3.5 million?


Wow, so much garbage in one post.

Who cares what you call Memo a center, a power forward, a combo.. bottom line he whooped on Kaman offensively and frustrated him on defense so bad he made horrible offense fouls out of frustration.
Ah yes Memo was the key to that game, he kept them around all game, or else we would've had a nice lead all game.
You say Wilcox dissapeared, but if you look at Kaman's birth certificate his middle name reads inconsistent. And lately he has improved on that... he's consistently bad.
Oh now your going to justify his bad play because he hasn't started his new contract.... whats next?


----------



## Dynasty Raider

It never cease to amaze me --- all of the excuses you all give for this guy.

IF Centers are far and few between, then we don't need one either, ESPECIALLY if the one we have doesn't make a difference in our advantage. He does, however, make a difference in our opponents favor.

He doesn't measure up to the teams that do have Centers, so what's he good for? I say, play Aaron and let Kaman learn along side Shaun.


----------



## leidout

yamaneko said:


> I dont think so. Wilcox would disappear. Kaman always has put in the effort whether he had success or not. There will always be wilcox fans out there, but i dont think many would have preferred giving the contract to wilcox over kaman to be our center of the future.
> 
> Remember, Injuries, offseason aside, kaman is only making 3.5 million or so this year. How many teams in the league would not pay a center who gets 7 and 5 over 6 games 3.5 million?


Wilcox got paid and hasn't disappeared for Seattle yet, he's outplaying Kaman so far. I blame 100% of that situation on Dunleavy, just like i'll blame him when we eventually ship off Maggette and he tears it up. I would've liked to see Dunleavy give Wilcox a chance to become our C/PF, theres no reason at all he couldn't have averaged 25 minutes per game being the #1 option behind Brand/Kaman. (or simply unseating Kaman when he enters one of those ADD-months)

Don't say i'm a wilcox fan either, because i hated the guy, but i don't care if Kaman is mildly retarded or not, we had a good quality center basically getting DNPs every other game due to Dunleavy's idiocy. The same thing is happening to Maggette/Singleton/Korolev now.

Ignoring the $52 million is simply childish, he's covered for the next 6 years even if he does nothing but play nintendo instead of practicing. You may keep making excuses for his ADD, but it's just like being injury prone, you have to consider it a constant problem that will not go away.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

leidout said:


> Wilcox got paid and hasn't disappeared for Seattle yet, he's outplaying Kaman so far. I blame 100% of that situation on Dunleavy, just like i'll blame him when we eventually ship off Maggette and he tears it up. I would've liked to see Dunleavy give Wilcox a chance to become our C/PF, theres no reason at all he couldn't have averaged 25 minutes per game being the #1 option behind Brand/Kaman. (or simply unseating Kaman when he enters one of those ADD-months)
> 
> Don't say i'm a wilcox fan either, because i hated the guy, but i don't care if Kaman is mildly retarded or not, we had a good quality center basically getting DNPs every other game due to Dunleavy's idiocy. The same thing is happening to Maggette/Singleton/Korolev now.
> 
> Ignoring the $52 million is simply childish, he's covered for the next 6 years even if he does nothing but play nintendo instead of practicing. You may keep making excuses for his ADD, but it's just like being injury prone, you have to consider it a constant problem that will not go away.


Great post. 

I AM a Wilcox fan, so are the ones that don't want to give him credit; it's too much like right. And no one wants to eat crow.


----------



## Weasel

Is Brand eating crow though? He did say Wilcox never gave effort in practice. He must of seen something that we didn't. 

I think Kaman will be fine. No need to worry right now. Not even Brand is play up to his standards. I think for the most part Kaman needs to get his head into the game. I agree is playing very poorly but I think he will bounce back to normal soon.


----------



## bootstrenf

Weasel said:


> Is Brand eating crow though? He did say Wilcox never gave effort in practice.
> 
> I think Kaman will be fine. No need to worry right now. Not even Brand is play up to his standards. I think for the most part Kaman needs to get his head into the game. I agree is playing very poorly but I think he will bounce back to normal soon.


agreed...


to kaman's credit, he has improved every single season he has been with the clippers...he's off to a slow start, but like weasel said, so is brand...


does anyone find it hilarious that we are 5-2, sitting atop the pacific, and yet we are still unhappy?


----------



## Dynasty Raider

Weasel said:


> Is Brand eating crow though? He did say Wilcox never gave effort in practice.


How motivated would YOU be if you were treated like crap and NOTHING you did for the team mattered. Play well ... benched the next day ... make one mistake, pulled from the game and benched. Show up Kaman and by default Dunleavy for not playing him and you're benched and traded.

Just how motivated would you be.

AND, another thing ... you always throw in that comment by Brand. Brand is a management guy ... has never been put in that position and basically calls his own shots. I lend no credibility to that statement from Brand at all.


----------



## bootstrenf

Dynasty Raider said:


> How motivated would YOU be if you were treated like crap and NOTHING you did for the team mattered. Play well ... benched the next day ... make one mistake, pulled from the game and benched. Show up Kaman and by default Dunleavy for not playing him and you're benched and traded.
> 
> Just how motivated would you be.
> 
> AND, another thing ... you always throw in that comment by Brand. Brand is a management guy ... has never been put in that position and basically calls his own shots. *I lend no credibility to that statement from Brand at all.*



okay, brand is a liar?


----------



## Weasel

Dynasty Raider said:


> How motivated would YOU be if you were treated like crap and NOTHING you did for the team mattered. Play well ... benched the next day ... make one mistake, pulled from the game and benched. Show up Kaman and by default Dunleavy for not playing him and you're benched and traded.
> 
> Just how motivated would you be.
> 
> AND, another thing ... you always throw in that comment by Brand. Brand is a management guy ... has never been put in that position and basically calls his own shots. I lend no credibility to that statement from Brand at all.


He didn't take a shot at Jaric when he was traded. You play hard in practice to EARN minutes in the game. Also how do you know Wilcox was treated like crap? Just because he was unhappy? Wilcox was a talented player but he wasn't right for this team. It could be that Dunleavy didn't like him but there were no reports of it. Only evidence was in his lack of playing time. Kaman has been yanked off when he screws up this year does it mean Dunleavy doesn't like him? You may believe what you want but I will believe in the bread and butter of the team in Mr. Elton Brand. He hadn't said anything negative about anyone before in his duration in the league.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

bootstrenf said:


> okay, brand is a liar?


He certainly doesn't walk on water ... no one is beyond exaggerating or expressing their own opinions. But, their opinions don't make it truthful --- just their opinion.


----------



## qross1fan

Dynasty Raider said:


> How motivated would YOU be if you were treated like crap and NOTHING you did for the team mattered. Play well ... benched the next day ... make one mistake, pulled from the game and benched. Show up Kaman and by default Dunleavy for not playing him and you're benched and traded.
> 
> Just how motivated would you be.
> 
> AND, another thing ... you always throw in that comment by Brand. Brand is a management guy ... has never been put in that position and basically calls his own shots. I lend no credibility to that statement from Brand at all.


Can you prove Wilcox was treated like crap? And don't say it was the lack of playing time, because the bottom line is, if you don't put in any effert during practice, how the hell do you expect to get into a game? If not putting effert into practice has nothing to do with playing time, then yes, Wilcox would've played 25 minutes per playing behind Elton and Chris, but practice matters. And the bottom line still remains that there is no way in hell that you can prove that Chris Wilcox was treated like crap, he never told reporters that he was treated like crap, the chemistry wasn't bad in the locker room, just because you are unhappy in a situation does not mean you are treated like crap. Wilcox did not fit what Dunleavy wanted to do. 

I'd have prefered keeping Melvin Ely over Chris Wilcox still.


----------



## yamaneko

> bottom line he whooped on Kaman offensively and frustrated him on defense so bad he made horrible offense fouls out of frustration.
> Ah yes Memo was the key to that game, he kept them around all game, or else we would've had a nice lead all game.


You can bottom line things, but thats not what i was saying. I was comparing okur to kaman as a center. What point are you trying to prove? Okur scored at will on brand as well during the game, does that make him a better PF than brand? You cant call someone a key to a game when the score turns out 25 or so in favor of someone. Was he important, did he help the jazz win? Yes. But people on here are making it seem like the ONLY reason the jazz won was okur, and the ONLY reason he did so well was because he played against kaman. (remember, how many minutes was kaman actulaly on him? 10? 15? ) Okur played 40 minutes. 



> You say Wilcox dissapeared, but if you look at Kaman's birth certificate his middle name reads inconsistent. And lately he has improved on that... he's consistently bad.
> Oh now your going to justify his bad play because he hasn't started his new contract.... whats next?


Kaman has always been fairly consistent with his numbers, steadily improving, has good stretches of games, has some bad, but throughout the year last year, if you noticed, his numbers improved for the most part, even though his role would GREATLY change game to game depending on Dunleavvy's offensive strategies. (and dont call this an "excuse" just watch tapes of last years games to see how it varied game to game the plays called for kaman). Who said I am "justifying" his bad play. I directly referred to the comment made that "Just look at the money going down the drain. " And i replied, yeah, who is complaining about paying someone 3 million for what kaman is doing now? Dont try and twist what I said. If youre going to refute it, refute why you think kamans numbers isnt worth 3 million. If we were in the middle of next season, and kaman was getting 10 million, trust me, id sound a lot different now. But i cant see how ANYONE can say "money down the drain" when were talking about kaman this year. 



> all of the excuses you all give for this guy.


Thats like saying an "excuse" for someone being dead is that he was murdered. Things are what they are. Its not an excuse to say that someone has not played most of the summer, and missed preseason. Its just a fact. Thats why there is a preseason, and one of the reasons why starters play little minutes, theyre just not ready, and arent "in sync." Did you guys see how bad some of the clippers played in the russia and other preseason games? Exactly how kaman is playing now. Personally, i WOULDNT be starting kaman now if i was dunleavvy, id start thomas or possibly paul davis. Beacuse we cant use the regular season for kaman's preseason. Let him get his timing back in practice i say. Now, when we were winning, it didnt really matter. But if we start suffering because dunleavvy insists on playing kaman when hes not ready, i dont think thats cool. 



> He doesn't measure up to the teams that do have Centers, so what's he good for? I say, play Aaron


If you are saying aaron williams is better than kaman, then you have just lost what little crediblity you had with your posts. Now, if youre AGREEING with me in that kaman isnt ready at this time due to his injuries and lack of practice, OK. WE AGREE. WILLIAMS should start until kaman is back. BUT, you just crtisized me for making "excuses" for Kaman, so I dont see how you can be arguing both sides of the argument here. So it seems like youre almost saying Aaron should start no matter what over Kaman which i dont think anyone here would agree with.


----------



## AK-47

bootstrenf said:


> i don't think okur is out and out better, just got the better of him last night...give the kid a chance...


Okur had 18/9 last year
kaman had 12/9.5 last year

But really, you guys are giving up on him just because of his poor start. He is a good player that just hasn't shown up so far in this year.


----------



## yamaneko

> Wilcox got paid and hasn't disappeared for Seattle yet, he's outplaying Kaman so far.


So you are going to compare playing alongside the likes of mohomaed sene, and johan petro to playing alongside elton brand? Wilcox on that team should b eaveraging 20 and 8. What about all of the talk before the season from seattle how dissapointed they were with wilcox so far and his efforts? But lets get this straight. Wilcox hasnt dissappeared for seattle...hes playing with some of the weakest centers in the league, and hes averaging a whopping 4 points and 2 rebounds per 48 minutes more than Kaman. yet kaman has dissapeared, and is money down the drain (even though he plays with brand), not to mention that wilcox is making DOUBLE what kaman does this year.


----------



## yamaneko

Lets not forget, that apart from injuries, time off, etc. Kaman has proven himself to be a slow starter (which means how much MORE he needs the presseason). Last year, his best year, when he ENDED up averaging 12 poitns, 10 rebounds, how did he do his first....not 8 games, but FIFTEEN GAMES? 7 points 7 rebounds...about what he has now. 

Lets take 2004-2005 when he ENDED up averaging 9 points, 7 rebounds. What was he averaging, not after 8 games, but after SIXTEEN first games? About 3 poitns, 4 rebounds. Even his rookie year, his first 15 games were about 20% down compared to what he ended up averaging. 30% down from the rest of his months by themselves. So to write him off as worse than aaron williams, or as a complete waste of money, because of 8 games, REGARDLESS of injury or any other factual situations, is just crazy.


----------



## mmmdk

yamaneko said:


> Lets not forget, that apart from injuries, time off, etc. Kaman has proven himself to be a slow starter (which means how much MORE he needs the presseason). Last year, his best year, when he ENDED up averaging 12 poitns, 10 rebounds, how did he do his first....not 8 games, but FIFTEEN GAMES? 7 points 7 rebounds...about what he has now.
> 
> Lets take 2004-2005 when he ENDED up averaging 9 points, 7 rebounds. What was he averaging, not after 8 games, but after SIXTEEN first games? About 3 poitns, 4 rebounds. Even his rookie year, his first 15 games were about 20% down compared to what he ended up averaging. 30% down from the rest of his months by themselves. So to write him off as worse than aaron williams, or as a complete waste of money, because of 8 games, REGARDLESS of injury or any other factual situations, is just crazy.


Nice post - Kaman will avg. 12/9 in mid december. Barring injury; I promise.


----------



## ElMarroAfamado

you guys are bashing on Kaman so early in the season...you fail to realize STILL what we need is a PG....people seem to be oblivious to the fact that Livingston ******* sucks.....whats gonna happen when Sam leaves??? the C position wont matter at all if we dont have a PG who can get him the damn ball......or make a shot if he is left WIDE OPEN......


----------



## ElMarroAfamado

i read a couple posts about this...and i dont want to hear the argument that Wilcox is better than Kaman...cmon now....if it werent for the million dunks a game Wilcox gets with Seattle he wouldnt be much more than a bench player.....so calm down now...


----------



## Dynasty Raider

ElMarroAfamado said:


> you guys are bashing on Kaman so early in the season...you fail to realize STILL what we need is a PG....people seem to be oblivious to the fact that Livingston ******* sucks.....whats gonna happen when Sam leaves??? the C position wont matter at all if we dont have a PG who can get him the damn ball......or make a shot if he is left WIDE OPEN......


Seriously, WHAT does Kaman do when he does HAVE the ball and is right at the basket?


----------



## ElMarroAfamado

Dynasty Raider said:


> Seriously, WHAT does Kaman do when he does HAVE the ball and is right at the basket?


haha well, like times past, drops it, loses it , bounces off his foot haha the works, but ...one difference is Livingstons job is to HANDLE THE BALL WELL....and he loses it as much as Kaman :curse: :curse: , give Kaman a break atleast hes a damn centerthey can be prone to lose the ball...


----------



## leidout

Weasel said:


> Is Brand eating crow though? He did say Wilcox never gave effort in practice. He must of seen something that we didn't.
> 
> I think Kaman will be fine. No need to worry right now. Not even Brand is play up to his standards. I think for the most part Kaman needs to get his head into the game. I agree is playing very poorly but I think he will bounce back to normal soon.


Practice isn't a reason to give up on the guy entirely and force feed Kaman into the lineup. Dunleavy has got a certain way of coaching that once you're in the doghouse, you're never going to get out. Would Iverson have been treated the same way? All that matters is what happens during gametime, and on a per minute basis, Wilcox was superior to Kaman on the clippers. 

The bottom line is, when a player gets one of those big contracts, 1 of 2 things happen: they either continue to bust their *** every night and try to earn that money or.... they don't focus as much as before, don't try as hard and simply collect those fat paychecks. At this point, Kaman is looking like the latter of those two.


----------



## leidout

yamaneko said:


> So you are going to compare playing alongside the likes of mohomaed sene, and johan petro to playing alongside elton brand? Wilcox on that team should b eaveraging 20 and 8. What about all of the talk before the season from seattle how dissapointed they were with wilcox so far and his efforts? But lets get this straight. Wilcox hasnt dissappeared for seattle...hes playing with some of the weakest centers in the league, and hes averaging a whopping 4 points and 2 rebounds per 48 minutes more than Kaman. yet kaman has dissapeared, and is money down the drain (even though he plays with brand), not to mention that wilcox is making DOUBLE what kaman does this year.


So you're saying Kaman would be a far superior player without Brand? HAHAHAHA

Do you watch much basketball? Kaman gets slightly inflated stats *because Brand gets double-teamed constantly!* Think about it, Wilcox is playing with crappy centers, so who is the defense focusing on? Come up with a quality argument instead of a quantity one next time.


----------



## Number2

^ ^^^


----------



## AK-47

I thought livingston was supposed to be a great player? That is all I heard about the kid, about how he is the future of the NBA at the PG position...


----------



## yamaneko

> All that matters is what happens during gametime, and on a per minute basis, Wilcox was superior to Kaman on the clippers.


Thats not a factual statement. Did Wilcox show flashes of things kaman cant do? Yes, but kaman did the same thing. Wilcox though did dissapear on the defensive end too much, and thats important to Dunleavvy. Kaman the last 3 years for his size, is an incredible help defender, working off of the picks, etc. His feet on that facet of defense is like that of a 6'9 230lbs guy. No way do other 7 footers likee shaq, yao, curry, or even smaller guys like brad miller, etc. have the quickness to cut off the pick like kaman does. Even Wilcox, being a much more athletic guy was always too late, and would pick up way more silly fouls in that situation than kaman. Some people might argue, that "per minute" Singleton is "better" than Q Ross. But we know thats not true either since dunleavvy decides what is better for the team. 



> The bottom line is, when a player gets one of those big contracts, 1 of 2 things happen: they either continue to bust their *** every night and try to earn that money or.... they don't focus as much as before, don't try as hard and simply collect those fat paychecks. At this point, Kaman is looking like the latter of those two.


Incredible .Completely igoring the facts? The last three years kaman has started this way, or WORSE, yet was that because he had just signed a contract? You REALLY think Kaman's play is because of his contract? That he puts an extra effort to miss shots barely that used to go in? Kaman still hustles on offense and defense out there, for you to say he is not trying hard is insane. How many times has kaman actually been the FIRST person on the fast break, hustling? This is the 7 foot center, beating everyone else down the floor. There is absolutely NO SIGN of kaman slacking off...if anything ive seen him try more. He just seems a step slower, out of syncc, and cant hit the broad side of a barn. If he was lethargic, youd see him just stand in one place and completely disappear like wilcox would do at times. At least when kaman blows a defensive assignemtn, its because he was trying to guard anothe rperson, or is doubling someone, etc. 



> So you're saying Kaman would be a far superior player without Brand? HAHAHAHA


No, im saying kaman would be putting up ridiculous numbers on a team with a front line that has the likes of mohamed sene starting, an offense that designs him to be the focal point down low. Last year, near half of his points that he scored were on offensive rebounds for putbacks, or other plays where the main play to be run was not to look for him in the post. I used to count how many times a game a play would actually be run for him. Sometimes it would be 3-4 times the entire game. Now im NOT faulting that at all....why run plays for him when you have brand on the team? BUT, on other teams with weak front court players, kaman would be like the brand on the team, in that he would get 10-15 plays run for him a game down there. Does that make him a superior player? No, but that certainly would give him superior numbers.

Case-in-point. Look at the phoenix suns. They are made up of lots of players who were afterthoughts on their teams. Put them on the suns, they have new roles, and plays run for them, and they get career highs. Did boris diaw all of a sudden get the magic touch and become three times the player he was over summer? no, he was pretty much the same player as he was with atlanta, just used tons more, and differently. 



> Do you watch much basketball? Kaman gets slightly inflated stats because Brand gets double-teamed constantly!


What? Do YOU watch must basketball? How many times does Brand get doubled teamed, and he throws the ball to Kaman? If brand is in the post, kaman is on the opposite side of the basketball. The only way kaman would get the ball out of a brand double team is if kaman was on the perimeter, and he made the entry pass. Count how many kaman points come from him being open due to brand being double teamed, and report back here each game. Again, Kaman rarely gets plays run for him, i was shocked last year that a player on the same front line as brand, and with a formidable backcourt, could still average a double double. Lately ive seen something strange, and kaman is actually getting MORE plays run for him. This I do not agree with. Im assuming dunleavvy is doing it, trying to get him up to speed faster, but i really dont think thats the way to do it , when hes so out of sync still. 



> Think about it, Wilcox is playing with crappy centers, so who is the defense focusing on? Come up with a quality argument instead of a quantity one next time.


Well using your argument, Brand is playing with a crappy center, so defenses must always be focusing on him, so by definition, brand should be putting up last season and this only about 12 and 9 rebounds like wilcox eh? Kobe is in a crappy back court, so he must not be able to do anything since defenses just focus on him? Shaq is gone on the lakers, so kobe's numbers must have gone down since he was the focus of the defense? Nope, kobe, since he was surrounded by crap players turned in the most productive points in the NBA in what 20 years? 

When you play with an all star or superstar player in the same position as you, you dont usually have two guys putting up huge numbers. Whats the most a center has averaged playing alongside tim duncan? Whats the most a center has averaged playing along side kevin garnett? Look at erick dampier who averaged 12 and 12 playing next to his grandfather, cliff robinson in the warriors. Move him to the mavs playing next to dirk and how does he do? 20-30% drop each year after. 

Who starts opposite yao ming? Juwan howard and chuck hayes? They must be able to put up 10 and 10 like kaman too since defenses focus on yao? No, they average about 4 points and 3 rebounds between them. 

Chris bosh's front court mate. He too must be able to do much better than kaman's 12 and 10 since he can benefit from the double teams, right? Well, Rasho is averaging an astonishing 2 points and 4 rebounds. 

The list goes on. Can you even name the starting guy or at least say that he comes close to averaging 10 poitns, the one who starts opposite, zach randloph, Dirk, Garnett, Jamison, etc.? About the only "twin tower" duo thats doing well right now is utah and boozer and okur, on a team where the front court has to do almost everything since the back court and bench are not that spectacular.


----------



## yamaneko

> I thought livingston was supposed to be a great player? That is all I heard about the kid, about how he is the future of the NBA at the PG position...


Livingston has continued to regress over the past 20 months or so since the last month of his rookie year. About the only thing he has improved on is his jump shot, but who knows if thats an improvement since now he relies less on his spectacular drives that he did in the past. Hes still young, many superstars have been late bloomers, but livingston hasnt shown that hes going to be spectacular yet.


----------



## leidout

yamaneko, seriously, try to make your posts fit in one page unless pictures are involved, nobody is going to read that.


----------



## yamaneko

Translation : "Dang, didn't think about those things. I better quit while I'm behind."

Everyone can have their own opinion on here, but dont try to call me out people on things attacking opinions, or trying to twist facts. If you think wilcox was better than kaman, more power to you, just dont say things like wilcox WAS better for the team, or wilcox statistically is a better player, etc. etc. Dont say things like Kaman only averaged a double double because he benefited from brand's double teams. 

Just stick to facts, and everyone will be alright, and if you have an opinion, preface it by saying, "I think," "I feel", etc. etc. and the world will be a happier place.


----------



## leidout

yamaneko said:


> Translation : "Dang, didn't think about those things. I better quit while I'm behind."


No, i didn't read it at all because i've got better things to do than read & respond to an essay about the clippers. if you can't summarize your thoughts in a more compact manner, don't expect a response. you've had many discussions here, but you'll notice after you break the "can't fit the post on my screen barrier", most people stop bothering. 

just because your arguments are incredibly long-winded does not make them anymore valid than others. we had a pretty lively discussion here and you killed it.


----------



## MR. VADA

shut up!!!...<strike>yamchop</strike>, get off tha <strike>"shullbit"</strike>...wii know you think your smart, wii all think you think your smart. leidout is right, you type to much, wilcox and kaman are both retarts. aint no reason to get angry over opinions...how long have you been a clippers fan?...vada

*Don't try to reverse words that aren't allowed, nor change a users name. ~ Q*


----------



## bootstrenf

MR. VADA said:


> shut up!!!...vada



can't we(clipper fans) all just get along?


----------



## MR. VADA

hell to the no we cant all get along, i thought rodney king proved that years ago...by the way
do any of you play nba 2k7 on xbox live...im mr. vada, i would greatly enjoy beating any one of your "assets" especialy yamchop's then maybe he can go write a book about how good i am...j.k.
...vada


----------



## MR. VADA

i just love the way you took your little marker and tagged over my post...keep up the good work...but i dont think "shullbit" is a bad word...vada


----------



## MR. VADA

how about shut the fizzle izzle...vada


----------



## ElMarroAfamado

AK-47 said:


> I thought livingston was supposed to be a great player? That is all I heard about the kid, about how he is the future of the NBA at the PG position...


haha i think Clipper fans who defend him and say he will be anything in this league are just being optimistic...but im being a realist when i say...once again ..Livingston aint the future of ****
haha to laugh that people compared him to Magic...

Ak47...next time they play the Jazz or the Clippers are televised nationally..check out the game...and you will see if he is a "great player" .......


----------



## ElMarroAfamado

yamaneko...your lengthy posts are fine...i say it helps prove whatever point he is trying to prove...
but yeah... like Rodney would say "Cant we all just get along" ....
we are still 5-2 if we lose like 5 in a row cuz of Kamans wack play or Livingstons horrible play...then we may have something on your hands haha :biggrin:


----------



## yamaneko

> No, i didn't read it at all because i've got better things to do than read & respond to an essay about the clippers. if you can't summarize your thoughts in a more compact manner, don't expect a response. you've had many discussions here, but you'll notice after you break the "can't fit the post on my screen barrier", most people stop bothering.


HILARIOUS. You realize that it takes half the time to read what i wrote than the time you posted that. Its ok, I dont blame you, if i were you how could i argue with what was posted? Its hard to argue unadulturated logic. Same as most of the time when people try to call me out, you cant win, because I dont argue things that are just opinions, i only argue about the facts. 



> no reason to get angry over opinions


Was my small 3 sentence post too much to read for you too? Did you not see i posted that there is NOTHING wrong with opinions? If you say Keith Closs is your favorite player of all time, and you loved the way he played defense more than any other clipper, hey, go ahead. its an opinion. Just dont do like some, and try to twist things around like its a FACT that closs is the best defensive player around. 

Also, you are at strike two with your posts of cuss words backwards. Qross warned you by deleting your word, yet you posted it again. One more time and the moderators will just delete your posts. If you have a problem with that, send a PM to the moderator who edited your post.


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

Lets look at their numbers this year:

PPG 7.4 
RPG 6.0 
APG .7 
SPG .57 
BPG .71 
FG% .375 
FT% .727 
3P% .000 
MPG 24.1 

PPG 12.0 
RPG 9.8 
APG 1.9 
SPG 1.11 
BPG .67 
FG% .551 
FT% .688 
3P% .000 
MPG 31.8 


I wonder which one is which....The numbers are there. This doesn't even show the turnovers or fouls either which Kaman dominates in.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

Now you know, the lovers will say .... 'but Wilcox plays more minutes and has played more games'. Prepare yourself for that argument, which is why I'm not a believer in stats. 

Stats didn't tell how Dunleavy actually treated Wilcox, it took the Sonics coach (and others) actually watching our games --- not the stats.

But, thanks again for providing them. Be prepared ...


----------



## PFortyy

u can can take adonal foyle.....we dont want him


----------



## yamaneko

I actually liked adonal coming out of college. I remember a big ESPN special on him as he was coming up as this "unknown" from colgate. But, not even the market was an excuse to give him the contract he got. That was crazy.


----------



## ElMarroAfamado

ronna_meade21 said:


> u can can take adonal foyle.....we dont want him


adonal foyle??? 

:laugh:


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*Something to Ponder ...*

I copied the post below from another board, re: Kaman. Although I disagree with his comments re: Wilcox, his post does offer something to be pondered.

****

"I've heard he sometimes takes medication and sometimes doesn't. Don't know what the deal with that is. If I were the Clippers I wouldn't hand out a contract to someone with a medical condition without a policy on how the condition should be treated.

He's sluggish because he's not paying attention and therefore slow to react. All the athleticism in the world won't help you if you don't have your mind on the game.

Wilcox had plenty of chances here. He's not that great. He doesn't have to compete with Brand for boards in Seattle. He's 6'10 235 and playing PF in Seattle, and doesn't play good defense. The answer to this team's problems isn't Wilcox playing center for us.

The boneheaded move that will cripple the franchise for the next few years (once Cassell retires) is trading Okafor for Livingston. Okafor was a proven college player and an NBA-ready big man and we traded him away. We gave up big and got small, we gave up NBA-ready and got NBA-may-never-be-ready. Players like Okafor are rare, look at who's starting at center around the league. I'd like to see someone actually get a shot off against a Brand/Okafor frontcourt.

THAT was our chance at a bright future. Okafor could've beaten out Kaman for the starting job instantly and we wouldn't be saddled with Kaman's big contract now. Kaman is now in the same category as Magloire and LaFrentz. Stiffs with 8-figure salaries. Maybe we can trade him to the Blazers. Maybe the Knicks will take him off our hands if we're lucky.

We have never had to live with Baylor's mistakes before. We just let them walk and started over. I'd actually prefer that. Think DTS is going to spend 20 million more than he would have to make up for this blunder (10 million more for a player, 10 million more on luxury tax) plus lose out on receiving luxury tax payments? No way. Kaman or some other loser is going to take up between 1/5 and 1/6 of our payroll for the next five years. With DTS as owner you can't afford to screw up with a huge long term contract, and Baylor and Dunleavy did just that.

I'm sure enjoying watching the Sam Cassell show, but when that's over this team is really in bad shape. 

**********

Your Thoughts?


----------



## cadarn

Dynasty Raider said:


> I'm sure enjoying watching the Sam Cassell show, but when that's over this team is really in bad shape.


Honestly, there will be trouble unless livingston vastly improves.


----------



## alexander

yup, our future doesn't look any good
Kaman allready stinks, Livingston is not getting any better, Cassell is not getting any younger, our recent draft picks(Davis, Ewing...) will be mediocre at best, Rebraca is almost done, Maggette will probable be traded, Mobley is going downhill....just not good  

unless, of course, Livingston becomes...meh, it's not gonna happen


----------



## bootstrenf

alexander said:


> yup, our future doesn't look any good
> Kaman allready stinks, Livingston is not getting any better, Cassell is not getting any younger, our recent draft picks(Davis, Ewing...) will be mediocre at best, Rebraca is almost done, Maggette will probable be traded, Mobley is going downhill....just not good
> 
> unless, of course, Livingston becomes...meh, it's not gonna happen



and brand is already starting to decline, right?


----------



## qross1fan

alexander said:


> yup, our future doesn't look any good
> Kaman allready stinks, Livingston is not getting any better, Cassell is not getting any younger, our recent draft picks(Davis, Ewing...) will be mediocre at best, Rebraca is almost done, Maggette will probable be traded, Mobley is going downhill....just not good
> 
> unless, of course, Livingston becomes...meh, it's not gonna happen


Kaman stinks? Wow, he's having a slow start and he suddenly stinks? Hey, let's trade him for Adonal Foyle! Foyle makes less money them him. Livingston is 3 years removed from High School, he could have been a rookie this year coming off his sophmore season in college at Duke and would have been the best PG in the draft. He's barely 20 for god's sake and your making the statement he won't get better? Cassell's swagger on the bench as an Assistant Coach will be great, our recent draft picks(Ewing, Diaz, Davis) were all 2nd rounders, hardly ever are 2nd rounders better then mediocre. Rebraca is done, reason for the Davis selection, Maggette won't be dealt until the off-season at the earliest. Mobley is starting to decline, but he's getting old. One thing about Mobley though, his numbers are close to his career averages. 


But yes, Chris Kaman + Shaun Livingston for Adonal Foyle + Monta Ellis? We save money and Ellis has shown more then Livingston, pull the trigger Elgin! Pull the trigger! I'm sure Warriors would love a starting unit of Davis - Richardson - Pietrus - Murphy - Kaman with Biedrins, Livingston, Dunleavy Jr. off the bench while Clippers will just have one legit bench player in Monta Ellis! *Gasp* How can we pass up on a roster of Cassell - Mobley - Ross - Brand - Thomas! With Ellis and Foyle off the bench, just give us the championship!


----------



## ElMarroAfamado

*Re: Something to Ponder ...*



Dynasty Raider said:


> The boneheaded move that will cripple the franchise for the next few years (once Cassell retires) is trading Okafor for Livingston. Okafor was a proven college player and an NBA-ready big man and we traded him away. We gave up big and got small, we gave up NBA-ready and got NBA-may-never-be-ready. Players like Okafor are rare, look at who's starting at center around the league. I'd like to see someone actually get a shot off against a Brand/Okafor frontcourt.


yeah...im glad people are starting to realize that Livingston is not going to take this franchise anywhere....and if they depend on him to...we are in deep trouble....unless atleast Daniel Ewing can become a Sam Cassell type player that can score consitently but also dish the ball.....and about Kaman, i think he will start playing better he is just off to a sluggish start....if he is not average 15+ by the all star break then yeah...something is up.....

but still....Livingston man.....damn the day that Sam Cassell retires, what will be of the Clippers?


----------



## ElMarroAfamado

wow Monta Ellis would be great....but at this point i would welcome ANY POINT GUARD that can make a shot and dish a couple assists a game..


----------



## yamaneko

Hidsight is always 20/20 they say. So many shoulda coulda wouldas. But at the time, almost NO ONE in the Clipper organization, or even any fans really wanted okafor or howard. Remember, we had brand, drafted kaman in the lottery, had wilcox, and a plethora of other big men. It made no sense. In a perfect world, if they could go back in time, im sure the clippers instead of trading down, would have traded their number 2 pick plus a good player and/or a future 1, to get dwight howard. 

And if we were trading down, we should have traded WAY down, being able to pick up something more than lionel chalmers (part of the livingston deal), and still been able to pick up a telfair, delonte west, Jameer nelson, etc. 

But again, AT THE TIME, the clippers seemed to do the right thing. Who knows, maybe it still will turn out right. Personally i think were fine with kaman as the center of our future, but i will not even think about giving livingston 50 million dollars at this point in time.


----------



## Roscoe_Clipps

Hey, Yam, can you explain how Lionel Chommos was a part of the Livingston deal? (Just interested... didn't know he was part of it?)


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*Re: Something to Ponder ...*



Dynasty Raider said:


> ... I'm sure enjoying watching the Sam Cassell show, but when that's over this team is really in bad shape.


I don't know, after watching tonight's game against the 6ers, we might be doing Shaun and OURSELVES a disservice by not allowing him to play through his slump/learning process/Dunleavy's inabiity to coach.

Either Sam was playing 'drunk' (afterall it is his birthday), OR we could be in more trouble with him rather than Shaun.

We (including me) must be careful what we wish for. (although, getting rid of Dunleavy as a coach is not a wrong wish.)


----------



## yamaneko

*Re: Something to Ponder ...*



> Hey, Yam, can you explain how Lionel Chommos was a part of the Livingston deal? (Just interested... didn't know he was part of it?)


Clippers traded to move down in the draft, and the only extras they got out of it was 2 2nd round draft picks, one of which was used on Chalmers, the second, im not sure if it was ewing or Paul davis.


----------



## ElMarroAfamado

*Re: Something to Ponder ...*

"Either Sam was playing 'drunk' (afterall it is his birthday), OR we could be in more trouble with him rather than Shaun."
cmon now dont be silly....Sam shot the ball bad but he still had 9 assists today against the 76ers as opposed to Livingstons 3!!! *and thats all he is supposed to do and cant even do that.....
and once again ill mention it since no one in the game thread mentioned Livingstons horrible play once again....6 TO to 3 assists??? cmon now....he cant make a shot, more TO's than assists...cmon now....what did he do now????? geesh....i know he is a Clipper and you guys probably dont wanna badmouth him cuz of it but you cant deny the fact that...he was already bad before...and now he is getting worse.....**** can they trade him for a pick or something anything damnit :curse: 

i think this thread should be changed to "we need a backup PG"


----------



## Weasel

*Re: Something to Ponder ...*

At least Kaman had a flash of him old self tonight. Unfortunately that flash was for about 2 minutes. A good minutes but still not up to par. Baby steps I guess...


----------



## qross1fan

*Re: Something to Ponder ...*



yamaneko said:


> Clippers traded to move down in the draft, and the only extras they got out of it was 2 2nd round draft picks, one of which was used on Chalmers, the second, im not sure if it was ewing or Paul davis.


Actually, Clippers delt the 2nd pick for the Bobcats 4th and 4th overall in the 2nd round(Chalmers) and then in a later deal, they dealt Melvin Ely and Eddie House for two future 2nd rounders(Davis and Ewing)


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*Re: Something to Ponder ...*



ElMarroAfamado said:


> "Either Sam was playing 'drunk' (afterall it is his birthday), OR we could be in more trouble with him rather than Shaun."
> cmon now dont be silly....Sam shot the ball bad but he still had 9 assists today against the 76ers as opposed to Livingstons 3!!! *and thats all he is supposed to do and cant even do that.....
> and once again ill mention it since no one in the game thread mentioned Livingstons horrible play once again....6 TO to 3 assists??? cmon now....he cant make a shot, more TO's than assists...cmon now....what did he do now????? geesh....i know he is a Clipper and you guys probably dont wanna badmouth him cuz of it but you cant deny the fact that...he was already bad before...and now he is getting worse.....**** can they trade him for a pick or something anything damnit :curse:
> 
> i think this thread should be changed to "we need a backup PG"


I think we should TRADE DUNLEAVY before we trade Shaun. 

When given a chance to stay in the game long enough to get into rhythm, Shaun looked good in the latter part of the 3r and 4th. Did you watch? It is Dunleavy who constantly yanks players for making a mistake and staying with the ones he like, regardless of what they do. We NEED a Coac.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

Wilcox had 15 boards in 30 minutes against Philly, yet Dunleavy was playing him behind Mikki Moore. Nice coaching job.


----------



## bootstrenf

damn, livingston did have 6 to's, but it was also livingston who was in the game during the 4th, when the clippers took the lead...i realize his numbers don't look pretty, but he is the one who controlled the flow of the game during the 4th...wasn't it livingston who got the steal off the inbound at the end of the game? it wasn't him that deflected it, but he is the one who recovered it...the numbers will come, but livy just needs to experience the tight games, and he needs the time to be able overcome his mistakes...


----------



## Dynasty Raider

bootstrenf said:


> damn, livingston did have 6 to's, but it was also livingston who was in the game during the 4th, when the clippers took the lead...i realize his numbers don't look pretty, but he is the one who controlled the flow of the game during the 4th...wasn't it livingston who got the steal off the inbound at the end of the game? it wasn't him that deflected it, but he is the one who recovered it...the numbers will come, but livy just needs to experience the tight games, and he needs the time to be able overcome his mistakes...


Like I've said throughout these threads ... he needs to feel good about his game and he can't do that as long as Dunleavy is yanking him after a mistake, not allowing him to get into the flow or develop chemistry with his teammates. (Shades of Wilcox?) Shaun is toooo young to have a coach do this to his confidence. EITHER PLAY THE GUY or let him go; don't destroy him or his game!!!! You can't be screaming at the guy along the sidelines while he is trying to run the team. How can he have his head in the game when you want him looking at your mug continuously. Like any sane person, soon, Dunleavy will be tuned out (ala Wilcox), and the player shuts down (ala Wilcox).


----------



## cadarn

Kaman actually got booed during the game.


----------



## yamaneko

Yup. Shows again how expectations change on the clipper team. Kaman started out the same or worse his first three seasons, his first 15 games, and he never got booed. But now that people know how good kaman can be, he gets booed. Similar to the clippers as a whole. 2 years ago if we would have started the season 6-2, clipper fans would be going crazy and changing religions theyre so happy. BUt this year, when were expected to do well, were 6-2, and all we see is negativity about coaching, players, etc. etc. 

Personally i like this new expecations on our players, and team. It means we no longer have a negative or loosing philosophy surrounding our team.


----------



## qross1fan

Dynasty Raider said:


> Wilcox had 15 boards in 30 minutes against Philly, yet Dunleavy was playing him behind Mikki Moore. Nice coaching job.


Kaman had a 20/20 game, something Wilcox will never sniff and Dunleavy is a :curse: idiot for not playing Wilcox ahead of him. *shakes head*


----------



## afobisme

yamaneko said:


> Yup. Shows again how expectations change on the clipper team. Kaman started out the same or worse his first three seasons, his first 15 games, and he never got booed. But now that people know how good kaman can be, he gets booed. Similar to the clippers as a whole. 2 years ago if we would have started the season 6-2, clipper fans would be going crazy and changing religions theyre so happy. BUt this year, when were expected to do well, were 6-2, and all we see is negativity about coaching, players, etc. etc.
> 
> Personally i like this new expecations on our players, and team. It means we no longer have a negative or loosing philosophy surrounding our team.


so much is expected of chris because he makes 10.5 million/year for god's sakes! and he's averaging like points and a few boards..


----------



## ElMarroAfamado

i mean...i say Wilcox play alot, and it seemed his game was limited to just dunking he showed some other stuff in his arsenal other times but rarely...he wasnt very saavy....he was kinda like Kwame Brown except Wilcox could dunk haha 

and well...so you guys think with Dunleavy out Livingston will get how much better??? or mediocre???
Mike does have some stupid calls alot and i dont think him leaving would impact this team that much...boy i wonder if Baylor has pondered the idea...once Sam retires...head coach???? :biggrin: 
you never know...!


----------



## yamaneko

> so much is expected of chris because he makes 10.5 million/year for god's sakes! and he's averaging like points and a few boards..


Not yet. Hes making 3.5 million dollars at this time.


----------



## qross1fan

*bookmarks thread to bring up in the offseason when Wilcox goes back to his 10/7 and Kaman gets his stats to 15/9


----------



## yamaneko

as much as wilcox was not a good fit at all for the clippers, id say hes GOT to get at least 16/11 in seattle. Before, when he was starting with the likes of petro and sene, but now that seattle has gone small ball, and hese the only C/PF starting, how can he not get 10-15 rebounds each game if he plays minutes?


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

qross1fan said:


> Kaman had a 20/20 game, something Wilcox will never sniff and Dunleavy is a :curse: idiot for not playing Wilcox ahead of him. *shakes head*


Not trying to make you look bad Qross1fan, but Wilcox put up 26/24 last year against the rockets. Heres the link http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2006040425.

Kaman :curse:


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

yamaneko said:


> as much as wilcox was not a good fit at all for the clippers, id say hes GOT to get at least 16/11 in seattle. Before, when he was starting with the likes of petro and sene, but now that seattle has gone small ball, and hese the only C/PF starting, how can he not get 10-15 rebounds each game if he plays minutes?


Are you serious... how many players in this league average 12+ boards a game? How can he not... How can Kaman not shoot 40% is a more sensable (sp) question.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

THE'clip'SHOW said:


> Not trying to make you look bad Qross1fan, but Wilcox put up 26/24 last year against the rockets. Heres the link http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2006040425.
> 
> Kaman :curse:


*WOOHOO!!!!!!  * That didn't take long at all!!! Go CWilcox.


Thanks for the info ... many of us (ME), don't look up stats.


----------



## qross1fan

THE'clip'SHOW said:


> Not trying to make you look bad Qross1fan, but Wilcox put up 26/24 last year against the rockets. Heres the link http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2006040425.
> 
> Kaman :curse:


Oh well, Wilcox had a 20/20, but still, that accomplishment is no where near what Kaman did. I mean, when the second highest rebounder gets only 5, then yes, as the MAIN big man, you should get 15+, but when your team mate also gets 20 boards, that leaves you with a slim chance to get 20, doesn't it?

Like I said, you guys want to get rid of Kaman and Livingston bad, let's deal them to the Warriors for Foyle, to the Raptors for Nestorovic, Wolves for Blount, Mavs for Dampier or Cavs for Illgauskus. I'm sure we can even get Big Ben for them


----------



## leidout

qross1fan said:


> Oh well, Wilcox had a 20/20, but still, that accomplishment is no where near what Kaman did. I mean, when the second highest rebounder gets only 5, then yes, as the MAIN big man, you should get 15+, but when your team mate also gets 20 boards, that leaves you with a slim chance to get 20, doesn't it?
> 
> Like I said, you guys want to get rid of Kaman and Livingston bad, let's deal them to the Warriors for Foyle, to the Raptors for Nestorovic, Wolves for Blount, Mavs for Dampier or Cavs for Illgauskus. I'm sure we can even get Big Ben for them


You're right, Wilcox's accomplishment was nowhere near Kamans... it was much better. Kaman's game against the bobcats had both starting bigmen Okafor & Voskuhl injured, while Wilcox was playing against.... Yao Ming & Juwon Howard. No comparison there.

And not many reasonable people who are fed up with Kaman/Livingston want to trade them away for junk, the smart thing to do is create a package of maybe Maggette or Mobley + Kaman/Livingston and make a run at an all-star in need of a change of scenary. I hear Jermaine O'Neal isn't happy in Indiana anymore...

The same guys who were screaming all last year about trading Maggette away seem to be giving Kaman a pass, what's up with that?


----------



## qross1fan

leidout said:


> You're right, Wilcox's accomplishment was nowhere near Kamans... it was much better. Kaman's game against the bobcats had both starting bigmen Okafor & Voskuhl injured, while Wilcox was playing against.... Yao Ming & Juwon Howard. No comparison there.
> 
> And not many reasonable people who are fed up with Kaman/Livingston want to trade them away for junk, the smart thing to do is create a package of maybe Maggette or Mobley + Kaman/Livingston and make a run at an all-star in need of a change of scenary. I hear Jermaine O'Neal isn't happy in Indiana anymore...
> 
> The same guys who were screaming all last year about trading Maggette away seem to be giving Kaman a pass, what's up with that?


So it's a bigger accomplishment being the only one getting 20/20, as opposed to one player getting 20/20? If that's the case, how many 20/20 games have we had, as opposed to team mates having 20/20? 

Ok, let's trade Kaman and Mobley for let's say, Eddie Jones expiring and then deal Livingston for Lue, he is playing well. And in two years, when the team has no real youth and not a player for the future, we'll go back to a good 10 years or so of rebuilding. Maggette was hurt and was out for a while and it was mid-season, Kaman is coming off an injury and is having a slow start and people want to hang him. I hear Warriors don't like Foyle, we can use some of this:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/XOE-bbkTNfM"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/XOE-bbkTNfM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

and

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lkoNgq-O3R4"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lkoNgq-O3R4" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


----------



## universal!

I'd feel embarassed to play with him- actually I'd be embarassed to play as him...
though I believe the Warriors bought him out.

Trading Kaman is different than trading Maggette. The trade value of Maggette is much higher- i.e., Clips could get a better return on the trade.


----------



## yamaneko

Didnt brand get a 20/20 in the game that kaman Did? If so, thats incredible. I believe only happened like once since the 1970's? Its amazing that kaman averages what he does with brand, but to even be able to pull things like that off when brand does it, is just flabbergasting. 



> Are you serious... how many players in this league average 12+ boards a game?


Not sure, but if he gets at least 11 like i said, there is precendent. Just generally speaking, if you play on a weak rebounding front court, you should be getting the boards. Garnett had 13 last year...who was starting opposite him? The "big time" rebounders, Blount, Kandiman, and Griffin, all of whome averaged about 4, 5 rebounds a game. Dwight howard averaged about 13..thanks in part to the center who started all 82 games on that team not being a great rebounder..he averaged 5. 

Sean Marion is a great example of what happens when youre on a team with no dominant bigs. he gobbled up 12 boards a game on a team where their center was a former Guard. Ben Wallace got 11 rebounds on a team where he had to compete with only rasheed who got 6 boards a game. 

Tim Duncan got 11 boards a game last year, again, week front line...the other starting centers, mohammed and rasho only averaged about 5 boards a game. Even troy murphy was able to average double digits rebounds, since foyle was only able to pick up about 5 a game.

Now, wilcox has rebounding abillity. Whether he brings it every night, thats another story since that was his problem here, his diasspearing act at times, and its been reported he was doing similar things at times in the preseason this year. But if he does bring it most of the nights, i dont see why he shouldnt average 11 rebounds a game when his new front court running mate, rashard lewis has averaged 5 boards in his career. The other part time starter there petro, is still raw he hasnt even had more than 6 boards in any game this year. Ray allen lifetime is about a 4 board a game guy, you cant count on the PG to get boards. I really dont see how its not reasonable to conclude that wilcox should be getting 10-11 boards a game on this team.

If robert swift were still playing then a different story, because if i remember correctly he really came on as a rebounder late in the year..ended up averaging about 13-15 per 48 minutes....


----------



## ElMarroAfamado

qross1fan said:


> So it's a bigger accomplishment being the only one getting 20/20, as opposed to one player getting 20/20? If that's the case, how many 20/20 games have we had, as opposed to team mates having 20/20?
> 
> Ok, let's trade Kaman and Mobley for let's say, Eddie Jones expiring and then deal Livingston for Lue, he is playing well. And in two years, when the team has no real youth and not a player for the future, we'll go back to a good 10 years or so of rebuilding. Maggette was hurt and was out for a while and it was mid-season, Kaman is coming off an injury and is having a slow start and people want to hang him. I hear Warriors don't like Foyle, we can use some of this:
> 
> <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/XOE-bbkTNfM"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/XOE-bbkTNfM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
> 
> and
> 
> <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lkoNgq-O3R4"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lkoNgq-O3R4" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>





ahahahahahhoh man oh man hahahah 
i cant stop laughing at that hahahaha maaanahahaha
:laugh:


----------



## ElMarroAfamado

man you guys are jumping the gun too quick on Kaman....if he averages like 6 pts 8 rebounds for the next year or two ...then we should worry..but its REALLY REALLY early in the season...cmon now :biggrin:


----------



## yamaneko

> You're right, Wilcox's accomplishment was nowhere near Kamans... it was much better. Kaman's game against the bobcats had both starting bigmen Okafor & Voskuhl injured, while Wilcox was playing against.... Yao Ming & Juwon Howard. No comparison there.


That is a very subjective argument. Wilcox got to play when swift had a terrible rebounding night of 4. Actually the only other sonic to have more than 4 rebounds was wilkins with 5. And was wilcox taking a lot of rebounds away from ming and howard? Not really, they BOTh had 10 each, and even the backup, Hayes, had 7 in only 23 minutes. Kaman on the other hand got 22 rebounds on a night when his running mate, Brand had 20 rebounds. How did kaman do against the big men of the bobcats? Brezec was only able to get 6 rebounds, Melvin Ely 3 rebounds. 



> the smart thing to do is create a package of maybe Maggette or Mobley + Kaman/Livingston and make a run at an all-star in need of a change of scenary. I hear Jermaine O'Neal isn't happy in Indiana anymore...


What all star that would work on this team only makes about 9-13 million for the deal to work out? Just curious, i cant think of all of them. The only all stars id want right now would be superstars like pierce or allen, redd, etc. all of whom make too much money for those deals to work, or else, the deal would not be wanted by the other team. 



> The same guys who were screaming all last year about trading Maggette away seem to be giving Kaman a pass, what's up with that?


Its just logic, pure and simple. People wanted Artest for Maggette. Cant argue with that. Others figured that if maggs was going to be permanently in the dog house, and if we needed money to resign players under the cap, and if we were going to lose maggs for nothing after next season, why not consider a trade for the betterment of the team? Cant argue with that. Now, we have Kaman, who is starting just the way he always has in his career, our only (semi)healthy true center on the roster, and youre saying we should talk about trading him? Who in the world could we get in a trade (who makes 3.5million) to replace him at center, that a team would want to give up?


----------



## yamaneko

> Trading Kaman is different than trading Maggette. The trade value of Maggette is much higher- i.e., Clips could get a better return on the trade.


Well of course, like i said, maggs has a contract of 8 million plus, kaman only 3.5 million. Who are we going to get?


----------



## The_Franchise

leidout said:


> You're right, Wilcox's accomplishment was nowhere near Kamans... it was much better. Kaman's game against the bobcats had both starting bigmen Okafor & Voskuhl injured, while Wilcox was playing against.... Yao Ming & Juwon Howard. No comparison there.


He was playing against Juwan Howard, who has the lowest rebounding rate in the league for a PF. Also one of the best at giving up offensive rebounds. I'd take Kaman.


----------



## THE'clip'SHOW

Why dont you tell me what Charlotte's shooting percentage was in that game? How many shots did they miss?

I found it.. they shot 37% and missed 10 freethrows.. thats alot of easy boards. They were 30-81 and with there big men injured you know they were all jumpers with no big men to rebound.


----------



## yamaneko

So most of the 10 free throws missed were the second free throw, and then kaman got most of those missed free throws? Check your facts. of the "a lot of easy boards", kaman got a whopping two rebounds from missed free throws. And of the other missed shots from the Bobcats, how do you know they were easy boards? And you do realize that of the bobcats missed shots, brand by himself got 11, let alone other clippers. I dont care how easy they are, 19 deffensive rebounds is ridiculously impressive. 

And if rebounds were SOOOOO easy to come by, why could wilcox only pick up 2 rebounds in the 10 minutes he played? By the way, the 2 rebounds that wilcox got, came in the first 26 seconds he was on the court...one was one of the "easy boards" from a free throw, the other was rebounding his own missed layup at the first half buzzer. 

Which big men were injured other than okafor? Wasnt brezec and ely their starters for a lot of the year?


----------



## DaFranchise

Seriously, you guys need to relax on Kaman. The guy had an injury all pre season and its gonna take awhile to get back in the flow. He will be just fine.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

DaFranchise said:


> Seriously, you guys need to relax on Kaman. The guy had an injury all pre season and its gonna take awhile to get back in the flow. He will be just fine.


His injuries doesn't count .. few wanted to give Corey slack for his pre-season AND season long injuries last year --- REMEMBER? 

Remember, trade him or put him at the end of the bench? What's the difference this time.


----------



## bootstrenf

Dynasty Raider said:


> His injuries doesn't count .. few wanted to give Corey slack for his pre-season AND season long injuries last year --- REMEMBER?
> 
> Remember, trade him or put him at the end of the bench? What's the difference this time.


maggette is an expendable commodity...we only have one, read it, *one* good center...many replacements available for maggs...


----------



## yamaneko

> His injuries doesn't count .. few wanted to give Corey slack for his pre-season AND season long injuries last year --- REMEMBER?


True and false. First off, injuries always count. But, on the other hand, regardless of if Kaman is/was injured, why arent we expecting this slow start from him when he has started like this his entire career? Few wanted to give Corey slack? We had a chance to trade him for the best defender of the NBA in recent memory, WHILE HE WAS INJURED. Thats like if Kaman got injured now, was out for a while, and we had a chance to get Yao ming. Do you think if the salaries matched up, people wouldnt trade kaman for a yao, or perhaps one of those hybird centers like an amare, dwight howard, etc.? Let alone if kaman was injured at the time.


----------



## yamaneko

PS, what happened to the people who were talking crap on kaman's game against the bobcats? Im curious to see your rebuttle to the facts shown.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

bootstrenf said:


> maggette is an expendable commodity...we only have one, read it, *one* good center...many replacements available for maggs...


We don't need a Center if he can't do his job against teams without Centers. Get over it! The majority of the league plays without a so-called Center.

EDIT: How many times have Corey led our stagnant a**es to victory this season and you still want to say he is expendable? Boy, that crow is hard to even look at, I know because I've eaten it before. Imagine when it comes time for YOU to EAT IT.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

yamaneko said:


> PS, what happened to the people who were talking crap on kaman's game against the bobcats? Im curious to see your rebuttle to the facts shown.


A good game here and there does not a GOOD Center make, and certainly not one that can be publicly defended.

What crucial games have Kaman showed up for? He wasn't there for Phoenix in the Playoffs. I know there has to be some, but nothing that stands out.

Do you really want to brag about his efforts against the BOBCATS WITHOUT EMEKA? Really? Come on. I'd say you're grasping at straws.

Kaman is DUNLEAVY-MADE at the expense of Wilcox just to prove he (Dunleavy) knew what he as doing. Kaman, injuries or not, has got to show a lot, and show it soon. Because, at this point, he has made a fool out of Dunleavy and DTS.


----------



## yamaneko

> A good game here and there does not a GOOD Center make, and certainly not one that can be publicly defended.


Thats not what I was referring to. Im referring to the people (not you) who were saying things like, the reason he had 22 rebounds was because there were a lot of "easy boards" and because of all of the "missed free throws". Not to mention the ones who also were questioning if he really had to work hard to take rebounds away from the other guy, and saying how the wilcox 20/20 was much more impressive, ultimately saying wilcox>Kaman. Also curious as to what they say about wilcoxes rebounding performance in the same game against the bobcats supposedly weak front line. 

If you would like to jump in on that mini debate, go ahead. Do I want to brag about his efforts against the bobcats without emeka? By all means. Here is my line of thinking on this, please let me know yours:

1. Okafor didnt play, so what? He didnt play in 57 of the 82 games all last year, how many others got 20/20's against the bobcats?
2. How many players in the last 30 years have been able to get 20/20 the same time their teammate does?
3. How many players the last 5 years have gotten 19 deffensive rebounds in one game? NBA? NBDL? Division 1? Division 1-AA? Euroleague? Summerleague?
4. Okafor wasnt there, yet Brezec/Wallace/Ely who started at times, and started in that game averaged 18 boards between them. 
5. Bottom line is, 20/20 is ALWAYS something to brag about. Wilcox's 20/20 is something to brag about, anyones 20/20 is. However, i also feel that Kaman's 20/20 was more impressive than wilcox's performance that night.


----------



## yamaneko

> What crucial games have Kaman showed up for? He wasn't there for Phoenix in the Playoffs. I know there has to be some, but nothing that stands out.


ALL of the games. Thats the point. Kaman "shows up" to play all the time, whether the stats work in his favor or not. Thats one of the reasons Dun didnt like wilcox, because sometimes at games, and practice, wilcox wouldnt "show up" Now, if you really mean "have a good statistical game," then I dont understand your point. Did you expect Kaman to have a monster series in Phoenix when dunleavvy has proven time and again he prefers to play small ball to match up? And is Kaman paid to "show up" or in your possible definition, "have a great statistical game" and be like the leader of the team or something? No, hes just expected to get his 10 poitns or so, 8 rebounds or so over the year. 



> Kaman is DUNLEAVY-MADE at the expense of Wilcox just to prove he (Dunleavy) knew what he as doing. Kaman, injuries or not, has got to show a lot, and show it soon. Because, at this point, he has made a fool out of Dunleavy and DTS.


What? The player Kaman is today, and the reason Wilcox was shipped off was just to prove Dunleavvy knew what he was doing. People know im not a big dunleavvy supporter, but honestly...thats quite a reach. How has he made a fool out of Dunleavvy and DTS? Again, for the 100th time, why are you shocked Kaman has started out this year the same as he has his entire career?


----------



## Dynasty Raider

yamaneko said:


> ...
> If you would like to jump in on that mini debate, go ahead. ...


No thank you; clipshow held his own. Besides, you don't seem to read other's posts with complete comprehension. Maybe another time.


----------



## yamaneko

Clipshow held his own? How so? Was it by posting erroneous information, or by not even bothering to follow up in the debate?

Are you at least going to have the decency to continue in the debate that you started in post 94? Come on, no one has to agree on here, but if youre going to call out people with your posts, and post really off the wall things, have the decency to back up what you say after the debate is continued. Otherwise, why make that initial post at all calling people out?


----------



## mmmdk

yamaneko said:


> ALL of the games. Thats the point. Kaman "shows up" to play all the time, whether the stats work in his favor or not. Thats one of the reasons Dun didnt like wilcox, because sometimes at games, and practice, wilcox wouldnt "show up" Now, if you really mean "have a good statistical game," then I dont understand your point. Did you expect Kaman to have a monster series in Phoenix when dunleavvy has proven time and again he prefers to play small ball to match up? And is Kaman paid to "show up" or in your possible definition, "have a great statistical game" and be like the leader of the team or something? *No, hes just expected to get his 10 poitns or so, 8 rebounds or so over the year. *
> 
> 
> What? The player Kaman is today, and the reason Wilcox was shipped off was just to prove Dunleavvy knew what he was doing. People know im not a big dunleavvy supporter, but honestly...thats quite a reach. How has he made a fool out of Dunleavvy and DTS? Again, for the 100th time, why are you shocked Kaman has started out this year the same as he has his entire career?


I'm very curious about this statement: _No, hes just expected to get his 10 poitns or so, 8 rebounds or so over the year. _ Are you saying that Kaman is expected to avg. just 10 points and 8 rebounds over the season???? *Kaman had an 11.9 points avg. & 9.6 rbs avg. last season. Kaman should better those stats - not regress.* I expect more from Kaman than that (10 points, 8 rebounds)but he is a slow starter plus he has been injured. Maybe you meant something else? Just a question.


----------



## elcap15

I cant believe so called Clippers fans are so quick to dismiss Kaman. He is just having a slow start! Give him a couple of weeks before you burn him at the stake. He has size, decent footwork, and can use both hands well, things that are hard to come by in big men. He has a lot of value.

It is obvious that he isnt having the best year so far, but there are a lot of games left in the season, and all that matters is who is playing well in April, not in November.

Edit: Next year the Lakers pay Kwame $9 million. Wanna swap?


----------



## leidout

elcap15 said:


> I cant believe so called Clippers fans are so quick to dismiss Kaman. He is just having a slow start! Give him a couple of weeks before you burn him at the stake. He has size, decent footwork, and can use both hands well, things that are hard to come by in big men. He has a lot of value.
> 
> It is obvious that he isnt having the best year so far, but there are a lot of games left in the season, and all that matters is who is playing well in April, not in November.
> 
> Edit: Next year the Lakers pay Kwame $9 million. Wanna swap?


Kaman was "hurt" the entire off-season until he had a miraculous recovery within a few days of signing his extension. He did not practice, did not play and began the season completely out of shape, he's even more foul prone then usual and faaaaarrr from his capability he showed last year. 

He obviously has value, but the thing is... once he got paid for that value, he stopped playing hard. Happens all the time in the NBA, guaranteed money encourages complacency.



yamaneko said:


> Clipshow held his own? How so? Was it by posting erroneous information, or by not even bothering to follow up in the debate?
> 
> Are you at least going to have the decency to continue in the debate that you started in post 94? Come on, no one has to agree on here, but if youre going to call out people with your posts, and post really off the wall things, have the decency to back up what you say after the debate is continued. Otherwise, why make that initial post at all calling people out?


Remember what i told you midway thru this discussion about how a QUANTITY argument doesn't equal a QUALITY argument? From #80 to #98 you've posted 9 times, that's 50% YOU, 50% everyone else... people simply stop caring rather than carry on an endless conversation with you which you obviously refuse to lose.

A simple question... _do you think you've ever been wrong about something you've posted here?_ (and try to keep the response under 1000 words, please)


----------



## yamaneko

> I'm very curious about this statement: No, hes just expected to get his 10 poitns or so, 8 rebounds or so over the year. Are you saying that Kaman is expected to avg. just 10 points and 8 rebounds over the season????


Thats personally what I expect him to do, and id assume many others as well. Note i said "or so." "or so" to me is 10,11,12,13 and 8, 9, 10. I really cant believe kaman got 11.9 and 9.6 in a year that brand did so well. And even more so this year now that we have a guy like thomas for the whole year who will play some center. Thats why i only expect him to do about how he did last year. If others expect more from him, good on them, nothing wrong with expecting more from a guy, its all personal opinion.


----------



## yamaneko

> Edit: Next year the Lakers pay Kwame $9 million. Wanna swap?


Hehe, good point. Lots of teams could say the same thing, dampier, foyle, jerome james, etc. 



> Kaman was "hurt" the entire off-season until he had a miraculous recovery within a few days of signing his extension. He did not practice, did not play and began the season completely out of shape, he's even more foul prone then usual and faaaaarrr from his capability he showed last year.


Miraculous recovery eh? What was so miraculous about it? Did he not either get injured, or have it aggrevated during the first Russia game? And he was completey out of shape? Are you quoting some media source on this? If so, please post it. Personally id think anyone injured might be out of shape, but we dont know what kind of conditioning kaman did while injured, unless you have some information that we dont. Faaaar from the capability shown last year? Injury aside, how different is his current first 9 games than the first 15 games last year? Not very. This year hes averaging 8 and 6 through 9. Last year, through 15 he averaged 8 and 5.5.


----------



## yamaneko

> He obviously has value, but the thing is... once he got paid for that value, he stopped playing hard. Happens all the time in the NBA, guaranteed money encourages complacency.


This is why you are wrong so much, because you try and pass opinions off as facts. First off, is anyone on the clippers or media saying that Kaman has stopped playing hard? No, you should know that the moment kaman stops playing hard, dunleavvy will bench him just like wilcox. Also, Kaman HASNT been paid yet. And now you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. At first you said that Kaman had a miraculous recovery when he signed his contract, and started playing again. But now you are saying that he "STOPPED" playing hard when he signed his deal, inferring that he was playing at a hard level right before then, then suddenly stopped once the deal was done. Which is it?



> Remember what i told you midway thru this discussion about how a QUANTITY argument doesn't equal a QUALITY argument? From #80 to #98 you've posted 9 times, that's 50% YOU, 50% everyone else... people simply stop caring rather than carry on an endless conversation with you which you obviously refuse to lose.


Well, theres two reasons behind that, which im shocked you could not figure out on your own. First of all, im posting with about 4 different people, those people posting with me, so right there im having to do 4 times as many posts since were in about 4 debates. Second of all, you have mentioned in the past, that you at times are unable to read very long posts, so I have tried to split it up for you and any others who might have the same problem. People stop caring? No, its that they cant reply vs. facts. At least they should admit it though...thats what I would do. 



> A simple question... do you think you've ever been wrong about something you've posted here? (and try to keep the response under 1000 words, please)


Of course. Didnt you see my post from yesterday in the laker game thread how i said that that was actually one of the FEW times my prediction was right? USUALLY my game predictions are always off. If im ever wrong, ill either admit it, but of course someone will have to bring it up, or prove it wrong...its not like i will purposely post a wrong thing. But look at the type of things i post. Most of it is not a matter of being right or wrong, its just facts. Like when i post kaman's statistics, that cant be right or wrong, it just is.


----------



## leidout

I'm not the type to dig up media sources, you've got a website dedicated to that, i'm sure it's already there. He was "injured" at the beginning of the preseason, didn't practice or play, waited to sign a big extension contract, and got healthy immediately after that... and ended up way out of shape because of this... sorry if you can't read between the lines there, but obviously Kaman cares about the money more than you've stated before. And please for god sakes stop saying he hasn't gotten paid yet... it's GUARANTEED, if he averages 2/2/0 the for the next 6 years he still gets paid at least 50+ million! THATS A FACT! 

While i'm on the subject, please stop trying to say you "only post facts", that's just pure BS, we've all got opinions on the stats, we all *interpret* them differently though... 20+ rebounds against Yao Ming/Juwon Howard seems like a bigger deal to me than 20+ rebounds against some back-up scrubs. It's a freakin' opinion, you think the opposite, so what?... but it's not a fact.

Yeah... you've been wrong on predictions, what a cop out answer... i've been wrong many times, this isn't exactly a science here... I guess we ought to just lock the threads as soon as yamaneko bestows upon us his indisputable logic.... how about the *"we should trade Maggette for Miles"* or *"the clips need an asian player (cuz i'm an ethnocentric asian)"* threads?


----------



## yamaneko

> I'm not the type to dig up media sources, you've got a website dedicated to that, i'm sure it's already there. He was "injured" at the beginning of the preseason, didn't practice or play, waited to sign a big extension contract, and got healthy immediately after that... and ended up way out of shape because of this


Yes, and i dont remember anything about him having a fake injury, or him holding out playing beacuse he wanted a contract done. Thats why i asked you where you got that information because it certainly wasnt in any media I saw. Perhaps you talked to the team doctors who admitted it was a fake injury? I swear, its kerry kittles all over again. Remember how people used to say kerry kittles was faking his injuries because he didnt want to play here? Well turns out his injuries caused him to retire. 

And Kaman was out of shape? Like i said, id imagine anyone coming back from injury would be, but right off the bat he was starting and playing minutes, and I dont ever remember him being pulled out of a game because he was winded, or out of breath, etc.


----------



## yamaneko

> While i'm on the subject, please stop trying to say you "only post facts", that's just pure BS, we've all got opinions on the stats, we all interpret them differently though... 20+ rebounds against Yao Ming/Juwon Howard seems like a bigger deal to me than 20+ rebounds against some back-up scrubs. It's a freakin' opinion, you think the opposite, so what?... but it's not a fact.


Exactly, people try to miscue the facts. I post facts on here, i also post opinions. Neither are wrong, because A. its a fact, or B. my own opinion is my own opinion. I was disputing wrong facts that were given (not by you), such as kaman had easy rebounds because of a lot of missed free throws, etc. If you think wilcox's performance was better than kaman's, of course thats your perrogative. But like with the others, Im just curious as to why because 1. Kaman/Brand did something no one had done on any team in the NBA in 20-30 years, two 20/20 guys in one game. 2. Kaman was actually keeping rebounds away from the other "twin towers" who had started, they were held to very few rebounds, while wilcox's opponents both had above season average rebounds, 10, 10, and even 7 for the backup. 3. Wilcox wasnt competing with his own team much for rebounds, i dont think anyone in the front court even had like 7 boards in that game. And again, if a set of players are so bad, why do opposing centers only average about 7 rebounds a game against them, and why didnt other guys get 20 rebounds? Thats just my opinion, what things make you think wilcox's was better?


----------



## yamaneko

> Yeah... you've been wrong on predictions, what a cop out answer... i've been wrong many times, this isn't exactly a science here... I guess we ought to just lock the threads as soon as yamaneko bestows upon us his indisputable logic.... how about the "we should trade Maggette for Miles" or "the clips need an asian player (cuz i'm an ethnocentric asian)" threads?


Are you saying I was wrong to want my favorite player back on my favorite team? I thought you just got done giving me a speach on opinions? Whats wrong with that? Many people became clipper fans because of darius miles...how can it be wrong to want your favorite player on your favorite team? 

And never once (despite me giving everyone the opportunity) could anyone prove something wrong that I said about the two asian players I said we should pick up. I called it that year that we should not have kept the scrub overton or whoever it was, and we should have kept the crowd favorite tabuse for on and off court reasons. Sure enough, overton stunk it up, and we had nothing else to show for it. I had always maintained that we needed more of a sparkplug PG instead of an old retread, and even if we were talking about the 15th man, tabuse worst case scenario would have brought in marketing dollars. But again, tabuse just plain outplayed overton in the preseason. Even dunleavvy admitted that he picked him because he likes veterans with experience. 

I also mentioned id rather have ha seung jin sitting on the bench as opposed to an injured rebraca, or an Ndong. 1. because rebraca is injured too much, and 2. there was more upside with a 19 year old jin, than a 28 year old ndong, and again 3. Worst case scenario, if none of them sniff the court, we rake in marketing dollars in probably the largest korean community outside of korea. These are all facts, how are they wrong? Are you going to say overton outplayed tabuse in the preseason? Are you going to say overton didnt get cut by the clippers due to him stinking? Are you going to say that tabuse has no marketing potential? Are you going to say rebraca doesnt get injured? That ndong has more upside than jin? That we wouldnt sell any more tickets by having jin on the team? 

By the way, do you follow baseball? Why did boston pay 50 million dollars just to TALK to the Japanese pitcher? Because they did a marketing analysis of other guys and their marketing impact like nomo, matsui, etc., and realized that it doesnt matter if they end up paying 150 million to this guy, they will still be making money, not to mention hes a better option than other pitchers around. How is that different than what i said? Tabuse was a better option than overton. Jin sitting on the bench is no downgrade over rebraca or ndong sitting on the bench.


----------



## yamaneko

> but obviously Kaman cares about the money more than you've stated before. And please for god sakes stop saying he hasn't gotten paid yet... it's GUARANTEED, if he averages 2/2/0 the for the next 6 years he still gets paid at least 50+ million! THATS A FACT!


Again, youre trying to say something is a fact, when its pure, and unbased speculation. Do you KNOW kaman? If not, then dont try to tell other people what he cares/doesnt care about like its fact. And yes, of course its a fact he has a guaranteed contract. But thats not what you keep saying. Because the fact is, he does not have 10 million, and wont start seeing those paychecks for another year. Thats just a fact. HE HAS NOT GOTTEN PAID. Hes just collecting his 3.5 million. And so hes worth every penny the clippers are paying him now. 

Personally, if he gets 10-13 and 9-11 boards next year, with steady defense, id say hes worth the 10 million that hes going to get in todays market for centers. Thats just my opinion though. If you expect more for 10 million next year than 13 and 11, again, thats your perrogative.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

Well ...... now we hopefully have a Center ... Kaman should return to form.


With the signing of Dumbleavy, we now know WHY Kaman didn't play UNTIL he got HIS contract and THEN suspiciously came up with an ankle tweak that will require more missed games than the average baller SINCE Dumbleavy hadn't been signed.

Let's see how quickly that ankle heals now.


This "sloppy" plotting makes it really hard to enjoy the game and does nothing to discourage conspiracists like me. 

I've got to admit ... THIS ONE GOT PAST ME ... It never crossed my mind this was a ploy.


----------



## yamaneko

Youre just being sarcastic, right? Youre not actually serious?


----------



## Dynasty Raider

BUMP ...

Another appropriate one from November 2006.


----------



## yamaneko

Yes, just like i said, it was only a matter of time for kaman to get more on track which he did like usual after the first couple months. Hes almost at his 06 numbers now, even though there are upgrades across the board on points/rebounds by other guys, and even though brand is too almost back to his normal self.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

yamaneko said:


> Yes, just like i said, it was only a matter of time for kaman to get more on track which he did like usual after the first couple months. Hes almost at his 06 numbers now, even though there are upgrades across the board on points/rebounds by other guys, and even though brand is too almost back to his normal self.


I forget ... is this a PRO-Kaman comment?


----------



## yamaneko

Depends on how you look at it...its an Anti-this thread comment. No one (except cassell maybe) is saying kaman is/should be an all star. He is what he is, and does what the clippers want of him for the most part. But at the same time, theres no point in saying "we NEED a center" when kaman has been mentioned as untouchable, and is not exactly hurting the team. Also pointing out how exactly what i said was true which was kaman always has slow starts, then picks it up as the season progresses which is what happened. how he finishes the season is anyones guess..


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*Re: We NEED A Center ... (BUMP)*

(BUMPED) Because this situation remains unchanged. IF we make it to the Playoffs and don't advance, Kaman will be the reason why unless we play small without him and TT & Elton covering the Center position.

GO Clippers ... we cannot lose any of the remaining games.


----------



## yamaneko

Youre kidding right? I dont know where we would be without kaman now. Thomas can play zero defense against bigs, and his post game consists of 15 food fade away prayers. Without kaman, thomas would be forced to play out of position on offense AND defense, thus limiting thomas three point shooting, length, etc. Hes fine for spurts, but not as a full time Center. 

Kaman is one of the reasons of our recent success. Kaman and maggette stepping up lately is a huge reason for our recent winning trends. In April, kaman is averaging season high (for a month) on points (12), rebounds (9), blocks (2.3), assists (2.3!!!). 

Correct, the situation remains unchanged. Kaman remains one of the best true centers in the league, and its good that we have him, especially since rebraca has been out the whole year.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

yamaneko said:


> Youre kidding right? I dont know where we would be without kaman now. Thomas can play zero defense against bigs, and his post game consists of 15 food fade away prayers. Without kaman, thomas would be forced to play out of position on offense AND defense, thus limiting thomas three point shooting, length, etc. Hes fine for spurts, but not as a full time Center.
> 
> Kaman is one of the reasons of our recent success. Kaman and maggette stepping up lately is a huge reason for our recent winning trends. In April, kaman is averaging season high (for a month) on points (12), rebounds (9), blocks (2.3), assists (2.3!!!).
> 
> Correct, the situation remains unchanged. Kaman remains one of the best true centers in the league, and its good that we have him, especially since rebraca has been out the whole year.




You can't honestly believe what you wrote above, not after watching the Clippers all season.

This little tidbit was just written by Jason Reid for this last game only ... and there have been SEVERAL just like it. You know ... you have to know that it is YOU that has chased once regular posters from this site. Unbelievable that you would post that ...



Jason Reid:

"Center Chris Kaman's disappointing season could end this week. 

*Kaman missed five of eight shots and scored six points with six rebounds and no blocked shots in 21 minutes. He played only eight minutes in the second half — none in the fourth quarter. *

In 73 games, Kaman is averaging 10.1 points and 7.9 rebounds. He's shooting only 45.1% from the field. 

Kaman begins a five-year, $52.5-million contract next season." 



WE NEED A CENTER and it can't be Elton and TT.


----------



## clips_r_teh_wieners

yamaneko said:


> Youre kidding right? I dont know where we would be without kaman now. Thomas can play zero defense against bigs, and his post game consists of 15 food fade away prayers. Without kaman, thomas would be forced to play out of position on offense AND defense, thus limiting thomas three point shooting, length, etc. Hes fine for spurts, but not as a full time Center.
> 
> Kaman is one of the reasons of our recent success. Kaman and maggette stepping up lately is a huge reason for our recent winning trends. In April, kaman is averaging season high (for a month) on points (12), rebounds (9), blocks (2.3), assists (2.3!!!).
> 
> Correct, the situation remains unchanged. Kaman remains one of the best true centers in the league, and its good that we have him, especially since rebraca has been out the whole year.


wat a ****ing joke...now even elton brand's calling him out. he's pretty much the highest authority on what makes or breaks the clippers, so you could not be more wrong


----------



## yamaneko

Cant honestly believe what I wrote? Its not about believing, its a fact, and yes, ive seen all clipper games other than maybe 2 or 3 this year. Dang straight I have chased once regular posters away from the site, thats what the moderator's job is to do...to chase away and discourage people who mainly bring a negative influence on the board, such as profanity laced tirades, personal attacks, etc. 

And whats your point about the article? Jason Reid, unlike you, posted "just the facts." Kaman had a "dissapointing" season in that it didnt eclipse nor match last season's totals. He also mentioned his stats and minutes from the game, all available in the box score. What does that have to do with what I posted? Kaman still is one of the best true centers in the game (a dying breed, but still there are probably 40 in the league, kaman being top 5 depending on how you define true center), and kamans good play of the month of april and end of march. to that point was a big factor in the clippers wins, and keeping close even in the losses. Now, dunleavvy doesnt play kaman much during tonights game for some odd reason, and all of a sudden that negates that? I guess since maggette stunk it up tonight too, that negates the positive effect maggette has had with his play overall the last month?

It seems as if youre trying to debate, but youre not even arguing the topic.


----------



## yamaneko

> wat a ****ing joke...now even elton brand's calling him out. he's pretty much the highest authority on what makes or breaks the clippers, so you could not be more wrong


And he mentioned kaman in which article? Youre the one who could not be more wrong (although in this situation it would be pretty difficult to be more wrong than dynasty). 1. did brand mention kaman in the reid article? 2. What makes you think he even referred t okaman? Was not the article about effort? Kaman was not pulled tonight for lack of effort, thats for sure. Look at the lineup sacramento threw out there, how long have we known dunleavvy that instead of trying to go big against small teams, he matches up with them. I dont know what brand was thinking any more than you do, but brand would be a hypocrite if he tries to call out kaman tonight because of lack of effort. Because the only negative from kaman tonight was missing about 4 shots close up none of which can be attributed to effort. Brand himself missed about 8 shots (including and 1 misses) from close up, does that mean brand didnt have effort?


----------



## clips_r_teh_wieners

yamaneko said:


> And he mentioned kaman in which article? Youre the one who could not be more wrong (although in this situation it would be pretty difficult to be more wrong than dynasty). 1. did brand mention kaman in the reid article? 2. What makes you think he even referred t okaman? Was not the article about effort? Kaman was not pulled tonight for lack of effort, thats for sure. Look at the lineup sacramento threw out there, how long have we known dunleavvy that instead of trying to go big against small teams, he matches up with them. I dont know what brand was thinking any more than you do, but brand would be a hypocrite if he tries to call out kaman tonight because of lack of effort. Because the only negative from kaman tonight was missing about 4 shots close up none of which can be attributed to effort. Brand himself missed about 8 shots (including and 1 misses) from close up, does that mean brand didnt have effort?


i dont think i have met anyone that has been more homerific about kaman than this guy. CHRIS KAMAN OF ALL PEOPLE. possibly the most unworthy player to defend. 

first off, who else could be blamed? take a look at the boxscores. that answers most of your questions right there: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2007041512. elton brand didn't even miss 8 shots IN TOTAL. in fact, that was quite an efficient game for elton. 9-14 FG, 29 points, 14 boards, 7 ast, 3 blk, 2 stl for brand compared to 3-8 FG, 6 points, 6 reb for kaman. no scratch that, they're WORLDS APART. has it never occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, mike dunleavy sat kaman simply because....he's incompetent and reluctant to try?? 

so much so that even Brand was scolding him. here's another account of a Clipper fan who was actually at the game, sat behind the team bench, and witnessed brand going off on kaman: http://www.clippertalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=1963. the passage says:
"Just got back from the game. Sat upper deck first half, horrible. Snuck down to the first row behind the clipper bench in the 2nd half. Me and my friend were yelling at Dunleavy and Kaman the whole time. I really did not like how Kaman was joking around with Brad Miller at halftime when the team is down by 20+ points. Kaman looks like he has no passion for the game at all. During timeouts, he wasn't with the team, wasn't showing any emotion. EB got really pissed at him after the game, IDK why. I really don't know what to say about this team. A must-win game on your home floor and you get demolished. I don't even care that we came back against them. We should be able to beat their "B" team." first-hand evidence. NOW who do you think was on elton's mind the entire time he was talking with the reporter? 

now that i've realized, i don't even know why i'm wasting my time with someone as thickheaded and clueless as you are. i mean REALLY, YOU'RE DEFENDING KAMAN. that says enough. forget it, i'm not even going to bother reading your ridiculous blocks of text that accomplishes nothing but make kaman blush. and please don't ever compare brand's effort to kaman's. i don't see how you can call yourself a clipper fan if you did.


----------



## yamaneko

> first off, who else could be blamed? take a look at the boxscores. that answers most of your questions right there: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2007041512.


This just shows the level of your argument. You, like dynasty rider, are completely straying from the point. Since when does the box score determine who had effort? Someone could maybe go 0-10 in a game, but that wouldnt meant they werent trying. Effort is determined by a players actions, body language, hustle, etc. on the floor, is it not? And, even still, yes, lets look at the box score. 6 points, 6 rebounds in 21 minutes...yeah, that was the worst performance on the team last night......NOT. 



> elton brand didn't even miss 8 shots IN TOTAL.


Did you read my post? I said, including And1's which do not show up on the box score. Did I say im blaming brand for that? No, because EVERYONE Misses a lot of "easy" shots during the game, but i was proving the point that it would have been quite disturbing if THAT was what brand was calling kaman out for, when brand missed even more "easy" shots. 



> has it never occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, mike dunleavy sat kaman simply because....he's incompetent and reluctant to try??


How? What showed in the game that he was incompetent and reluctant to try? Oh yeah, i forgot, the box score tells the whole story right? Well, you must think dunleavvy is illiterate, because kaman in the game was averaging about/more points and rebounds a minute in the game than his season averages. 

As far as your post there about the other supposed eye witness account. Lets play devil's advocate, and take that at 100% truth. Kaman joking with miller NOT during the game. Big wow. You realize that kaman has ADD right? Its the same reason why in a very close game, kaman rarely chokes because of nerves, as smith and lawler point out, hes in his own world, and the pressure doesnt get to him? As far as generally joking around (if it really was a joke, how can a fan 30 feet away hear the words), im sure none of us have ever seen mobley, cassell, etc. joke around while were down. Yeah, that really shows effort. And what is that guy saying, that immediately after the game, while everyone was still on the court, he saw brand get mad at kaman? Again, how is that related to the basketball court, when the coach didnt even play kaman most of the 2nd half?

When you joined this topic, i thought it would be at least an interesting debate, but youre just as bad as dynasty. Completely going off topic. Now youre saying that im comparing brand's effort to Kaman? Read again what i said (if youre not intentionally changing the meaning). I said that if brand was saying kaman didnt show effort because he missed a couple of close shots, then it would be hypocritical, since brand missed just as many. If brand was referring to effort, it must be something different, something that we didnt see, because i dont think any of us saw a lack of effort from kaman as far as offensive and deffensive hustle.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

You're too much ...

Amazing that you can even dare to post, even more amazing that you honestly believe what you're posting.

Hasn't it even occured to you that of the few remaining posters here, NONE have sided with you?


----------



## yamaneko

I never have the fear to post facts. It shouldnt be hard for me to believe what im posting, because bottom line, they are facts. 

Has it ever occured to you that you are the only one who every now and then tries to ressurect this thread? So that must mean that youre wrong, right? No, thats silly logic, so dont use it. 

In debate, whomever presents facts is the victor, end of story. If you want to refute the fact that Kaman is one of the best true centers in the game, give me some proof. Tell me who other than Yao, Shaq, Curry, and maybe Camby (if you consider him a true center), is better than kaman? This year, i think hes surpassed even ilgauskas whose age seems to be catching up to him.


----------



## PAIDNFULL23

yamaneko said:


> I never have the fear to post facts. It shouldnt be hard for me to believe what im posting, because bottom line, they are facts.
> 
> Has it ever occured to you that you are the only one who every now and then tries to ressurect this thread? So that must mean that youre wrong, right? No, thats silly logic, so dont use it.
> 
> In debate, whomever presents facts is the victor, end of story. *If you want to refute the fact that Kaman is one of the best true centers in the game, give me some proof. Tell me who other than Yao, Shaq, Curry, and maybe Camby (if you consider him a true center), is better than kaman? This year, i think hes surpassed even ilgauskas whose age seems to be catching up to him.*


You keep talking about how you speak facts, but the statement that Kamen is one of the best centers in the league is an opinion, not a fact. 

By the way, I side with Wieners and Dynasty, Kamen simply sucks, if he gives all the effort that you think that he is giving, than it is useless if it doesn't amount to much. If someone is giving all the effort that they have and it still doesn't amount to much, then it still doesn't excuse them from not producing to the level that they should. This is the NBA, not elementary school, where an A for effort and a D for exectution doesn't cut it. And I don't believe that Kaman is giving near the amount of effort that you say he is.


----------



## yamaneko

> but the statement that Kamen is one of the best centers in the league is an opinion, not a fact.


Statistically speaking, and analytically speaking (considering his points/rebounds come besides one of the best PF's in the game), he is one of the best centers in the league. Im not talking "opinion" based things such as hes the best looking, hes the ugliest, he has the most upside, etc. etc., just the facts which can be seen from the stats.



> Kamen simply sucks, if he gives all the effort that you think that he is giving, than it is useless if it doesn't amount to much. If someone is giving all the effort that they have and it still doesn't amount to much, then it still doesn't excuse them from not producing to the level that they should.


Again, if youre going to side on such an opinion, back it up with facts. How does someone "suck", yet still, in his supposed "off year" still putting up better numbers then most true centers, and even a lot of the hybrid PF/C's of the league? All of this when a certain front court teammate happens to be one elton brand. Really, its a pscyhological thing. I read it on another board recently, and that guy hit the nail on the head. I had a similar discussion of this a few months ago. Kaman subconsiously is just another "big white stiff" it seems to people. Throw in his ADD, his goofy mannerisms, and what happens is, any mistakes he makes is blown up over anyone else. 

People talk about his turnovers. So what? Everyone turns the ball over on the clippers. Hes only 4th in TO's per game on the clippers, and 4th in overall turnovers on the team. But game in and game out, all you hear about is kaman's 1.95 turnovers as if it were the end of the world. Are turnovers good? No, but if youre going to critisize one guy, critisize others. People say kaman zones out..again the pcyhology of how "goofy" he looks out there. One of the biggest things you look for of people falling asleep or zoning out are a couple of things: 1. Deffensive 3 second violation, 2. offensive 3 second violation, 3. not boxing out your man. Kaman, surprisingly almost NEVER does those things. Watch him off of the ball. For someone who has ADD, and suppoedly sleeps on the court, he always seems to make sure he takes care of doing/not doing those 3 things. If youre going to say that kaman doesnt give effort, then at least back it up with cases. When i say he does give effort, is because hes always hustling. When you miss shots, its not because of lack of effort. To me, lack of effort is not even taking shots...not boxing out...not double teaming when youre suppoed to, not hustling for loose balls...what does effort mean to you?

But the bottom line is, even in his "terrible" year, hes still putting up better numbers than most of his peer group. Thats a fact.


----------



## bootstrenf

we do need another center...i agree with the mob...nothing personal...


----------



## Dynasty Raider

yamaneko said:


> Statistically speaking, and analytically speaking (considering his points/rebounds come besides one of the best PF's in the game), he is one of the best centers in the league. Im not talking "opinion" based things such as hes the best looking, hes the ugliest, he has the most upside, etc. etc., just the facts which can be seen from the stats.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, if youre going to side on such an opinion, back it up with facts. How does someone "suck", yet still, in his supposed "off year" still putting up better numbers then most true centers, and even a lot of the hybrid PF/C's of the league? All of this when a certain front court teammate happens to be one elton brand. Really, its a pscyhological thing. I read it on another board recently, and that guy hit the nail on the head. I had a similar discussion of this a few months ago. Kaman subconsiously is just another "big white stiff" it seems to people. Throw in his ADD, his goofy mannerisms, and what happens is, any mistakes he makes is blown up over anyone else.
> 
> People talk about his turnovers. So what? Everyone turns the ball over on the clippers. Hes only 4th in TO's per game on the clippers, and 4th in overall turnovers on the team. But game in and game out, all you hear about is kaman's 1.95 turnovers as if it were the end of the world. Are turnovers good? No, but if youre going to critisize one guy, critisize others. People say kaman zones out..again the pcyhology of how "goofy" he looks out there. One of the biggest things you look for of people falling asleep or zoning out are a couple of things: 1. Deffensive 3 second violation, 2. offensive 3 second violation, 3. not boxing out your man. Kaman, surprisingly almost NEVER does those things. Watch him off of the ball. For someone who has ADD, and suppoedly sleeps on the court, he always seems to make sure he takes care of doing/not doing those 3 things. If youre going to say that kaman doesnt give effort, then at least back it up with cases. When i say he does give effort, is because hes always hustling. When you miss shots, its not because of lack of effort. To me, lack of effort is not even taking shots...not boxing out...not double teaming when youre suppoed to, not hustling for loose balls...what does effort mean to you?
> 
> But the bottom line is, even in his "terrible" year, hes still putting up better numbers than most of his peer group. Thats a fact.


*HOW CAN YOU GO ON AND ON ABOUT NOTHING?*

TO: Yama and his followers (if any). Here's is what is said on other sites since it appears you're out of touch. I don't think Yama can comprehend, but hopefully his followers will. It can't feel good being that disconnected from reality.

"____, you want to blame Elton Brand for this disaster of a season? The guy plays his heart out every night. He isn't an extremely vocal leader, and never has been. That shouldn't be necessarry on a veteran team where guys have been there and done that, are playoff tested. Elton almost willed this team back with his effort against Sacramento in the second half along with Q and Corey.

No, the problem with this team doesn't lie with Elton Brand. Nor does it lie with the injuries to Livingston or Cassell, this team was playing .500 basketball with both of those guys healthy through the majority of the season. This team could easily be a contender and one of the top teams in the league, but I'll give you the two reasons why they more than likely will miss the playoffs, which is absolutely unfathomable for a team with this talent level:

1.Dunleavy
2.Kaman

I don't know how many of you have noticed that every team has figured out how to beat the Clippers, and the gameplan is really this simple: GO AT KAMAN. Teams now involve Chris Kaman in every single offensive set they run, whether they go right at him with a 1 on 1 iso or involve him in the pick and roll. His half-fast, clueless "show and recover" on the ball ultimately leaves the Clippers defense in scramble mode which inevitabely leads to open shot after open shot. In all my years of watching basketball, I can't recall a greater defensive liability than Chris Kaman. This board has more than covered how demoralizing his missed chippies on the offensive end can be and how he ruins this team's spacing.

Where does Dunleavy come in to play?

1.That's his boy that he demanded get a huge extension or he was gone.
2. That's his strategy that he imlements and teaches to Chris Kaman to defend the pick and roll, and he hasn't adjusted it or taught Kaman to play solid, protect-the-rim defense in what is now Kaman's 4th year. Team's have caught on and it's being exposed.
3. Don't get me started on how he kept one of the most dynamic players in the league glued to the bench for a year and a half and tried to trade him for his sorry *** unathletic son.
4. He tried to make a 6'7, lanky, blazing fast point gaurd with amazing court vision a half-court player and NEVER let him run and play to his strengths because he only knows his way to coach, despite the fact they could have easily surrounded him with an athletic lineup (Liv, Mobley, Maggette, TT, Brand) and run and gun away.

*For those of you who don't believe my "Kaman theory", *let me give you facts. Hornets game: Clippers build an 11 pt. lead with Kaman on the bench. He starts the second half, the Clippers get outscored by 15 pts. He is taken out of the game, the Clippers re-build the lead.

Denver game: The Clippers build a 15 pt lead w/ the Tim Thomas lineup in the game. He comes out with an injury, Kaman is forced to play the rest of the game in which the Clippers blow the lead and lose the game.

Laker game: w/Kaman in the game: -24
w/Kaman out of the game: +29 

The Clippers come back from 18 with Kaman watching from the bench. Watch the tape of the game those are pretty much accurate stats

Kings game: With Kaman playing the whole 1st quarter, the Clips get down by 13 w/ Brad Miller going for 10 pts in the 1st quarter and Kaman's cluelesness on defense leading to open shot after open shot. The Kings literally involve Kaman in 90% of their offensive sets.

-Kaman comes out, Clips stay even in the 2nd quarter

-Kaman comes back in the second quarter, lead is pushed to 18

-Kaman comes out, Clips stay even.

-Kaman back in, lead pushed to 21.

-3rd quarter: Kaman blows demoralizing chippie layup, Kings push lead up to 21 again.

-Kaman comes out, Clips cut lead from 21 to 4.

Those are facts, cold hard facts. Teams go at Kaman and we can't stop anybody with him in the game.

With Kaman out of the game, the Clippers are strong and versatile defensively, forcing the opposition to score on contested jumpers and drives. With him in, the Clippers only chance at stops are that the opposition happens to miss easy shots. 

With Kaman out, the Clippers space the court beautifully around Elton Brand and the offense flows smoothly with great ball movement. With Kaman in, the Clippers inexplicably run their offense through him and the ball movement is stagnant along with the spacing bad.

Does anybody remember game 2 against Phoenix last year, when Kaman was hurt and the Clippers blew the Suns off their home-court?

Yet Dunleavy continues to start him and run the offense through him either because he knows he is solely responsible for the mega-contract he recieved, or worst yet he actually thinks the Clippers are a better team with Kaman on the court.

I'm ____, a dejected die-hard Clipper fan who realizes a championship caliber, veteran team is doomed to be anchored to the floor by two insurmountable liabilities known as Kaman and Dunleavy. Here's hoping I'm wrong, go Clips and go Dallas tommorrow."

*WE NEED A CENTER AND A COACH!!!!*


----------



## yamaneko

Hahaha. Thats usually the best sign when you know youve been beat. Start having to quote 100% other people's posts. But first of all, note how not one person here who says we suppoesdly need another center has mentioned any names. Again, thats because Kaman IS one of the best true centers in the league. Who else could fill his shoes? Youre not going to get a better center than he on the trading block, becuase yao, shaq, curry, are all pretty untouchable. Now, you could say, lets get a PF/C hybrid guy, but thats a completely different argument. So even the guys who suppoesdly say we need "another center" cannot even give a suggestion of who that would be, and how we would be better with that person.

The Dunleavvy offense needs a true 7 foot center with his intricate half court sets. Its why wilcox didnt work out here (besides his lack of effort), its why thomas doesnt start. Am I saying i 100% agree with the dunleavvy philosophy? No, of course not. But it is what it is. Kaman overachieves if anything from the way you guys describe him. If he is as bad as everyone says he is, its amazing he averaged double double last year, and near double double this year, playing with a 23 and 10 PF in brand. Look around the league and you can see. Wilcox, with a non existant rest of the front court, barely averaged better numbers than kaman, when he was the only man in the middle. Bynum who everyone is on his jock, again, even worse front court situation than seattle, he was the man, and yet, he averaged even worse than kaman. 

Back to your original quote from someone else, the great majority of that stuff is absolutely false. Im not going to go into it all, its quite ridiculous you cant come up with your own argument. But for example, on certain runs he was describing, it had very little to do with kaman, just as little as the runs that the CLIPPERS went on in the last few games WITH kaman in the game (notice how he left that out). Notice how one of his "points" is, "kaman misses layup, thus kings go up by 21." So one missed shot was the reason of the kings 21 point lead? Point after point is wrong, he just posted it beacuse most people who just hate kaman will take his word for granted, and not look at the tivo tapes like i do to analyze if its true or not.

Not everything he said was false. Some things were things i have been saying. Such as dunleavvy leaving kaman in the game when he is struggling for some odd reason. Dunleavvy's missuse of shawn livingston, etc.

But some of this guys stuff is down right laughable, no wonder you want to post it. "With Kaman out of the game, the Clippers are strong and versatile defensively, forcing the opposition to score on contested jumpers and drives. With him in, the Clippers only chance at stops are that the opposition happens to miss easy shots. " Yeah, thomas really is a defffensive threat down low. Thomas is also a very poor rotator. Kaman is superior in both of those, let alone blocking shots. Oh yeah, when kaman is in the game, the only stops are when the opponents miss easy shots...yeah, thats a real factual comment. 

And the clippers offense is run through kaman when he is in the game? Please. 

Try to come up with your own argument please.


----------



## bootstrenf

Dynasty Raider said:


> *HOW CAN YOU GO ON AND ON ABOUT NOTHING?*
> 
> TO: Yama and his followers (if any). Here's is what is said on other sites since it appears you're out of touch. I don't think Yama can comprehend, but hopefully his followers will. It can't feel good being that disconnected from reality.
> 
> "____, you want to blame Elton Brand for this disaster of a season? The guy plays his heart out every night. He isn't an extremely vocal leader, and never has been. That shouldn't be necessarry on a veteran team where guys have been there and done that, are playoff tested. Elton almost willed this team back with his effort against Sacramento in the second half along with Q and Corey.
> 
> No, the problem with this team doesn't lie with Elton Brand. Nor does it lie with the injuries to Livingston or Cassell, this team was playing .500 basketball with both of those guys healthy through the majority of the season. This team could easily be a contender and one of the top teams in the league, but I'll give you the two reasons why they more than likely will miss the playoffs, which is absolutely unfathomable for a team with this talent level:
> 
> 1.Dunleavy
> 2.Kaman
> 
> I don't know how many of you have noticed that every team has figured out how to beat the Clippers, and the gameplan is really this simple: GO AT KAMAN. Teams now involve Chris Kaman in every single offensive set they run, whether they go right at him with a 1 on 1 iso or involve him in the pick and roll. His half-fast, clueless "show and recover" on the ball ultimately leaves the Clippers defense in scramble mode which inevitabely leads to open shot after open shot. In all my years of watching basketball, I can't recall a greater defensive liability than Chris Kaman. This board has more than covered how demoralizing his missed chippies on the offensive end can be and how he ruins this team's spacing.
> 
> Where does Dunleavy come in to play?
> 
> 1.That's his boy that he demanded get a huge extension or he was gone.
> 2. That's his strategy that he imlements and teaches to Chris Kaman to defend the pick and roll, and he hasn't adjusted it or taught Kaman to play solid, protect-the-rim defense in what is now Kaman's 4th year. Team's have caught on and it's being exposed.
> 3. Don't get me started on how he kept one of the most dynamic players in the league glued to the bench for a year and a half and tried to trade him for his sorry *** unathletic son.
> 4. He tried to make a 6'7, lanky, blazing fast point gaurd with amazing court vision a half-court player and NEVER let him run and play to his strengths because he only knows his way to coach, despite the fact they could have easily surrounded him with an athletic lineup (Liv, Mobley, Maggette, TT, Brand) and run and gun away.
> 
> *For those of you who don't believe my "Kaman theory", *let me give you facts. Hornets game: Clippers build an 11 pt. lead with Kaman on the bench. He starts the second half, the Clippers get outscored by 15 pts. He is taken out of the game, the Clippers re-build the lead.
> 
> Denver game: The Clippers build a 15 pt lead w/ the Tim Thomas lineup in the game. He comes out with an injury, Kaman is forced to play the rest of the game in which the Clippers blow the lead and lose the game.
> 
> Laker game: w/Kaman in the game: -24
> w/Kaman out of the game: +29
> 
> The Clippers come back from 18 with Kaman watching from the bench. Watch the tape of the game those are pretty much accurate stats
> 
> Kings game: With Kaman playing the whole 1st quarter, the Clips get down by 13 w/ Brad Miller going for 10 pts in the 1st quarter and Kaman's cluelesness on defense leading to open shot after open shot. The Kings literally involve Kaman in 90% of their offensive sets.
> 
> -Kaman comes out, Clips stay even in the 2nd quarter
> 
> -Kaman comes back in the second quarter, lead is pushed to 18
> 
> -Kaman comes out, Clips stay even.
> 
> -Kaman back in, lead pushed to 21.
> 
> -3rd quarter: Kaman blows demoralizing chippie layup, Kings push lead up to 21 again.
> 
> -Kaman comes out, Clips cut lead from 21 to 4.
> 
> Those are facts, cold hard facts. Teams go at Kaman and we can't stop anybody with him in the game.
> 
> With Kaman out of the game, the Clippers are strong and versatile defensively, forcing the opposition to score on contested jumpers and drives. With him in, the Clippers only chance at stops are that the opposition happens to miss easy shots.
> 
> With Kaman out, the Clippers space the court beautifully around Elton Brand and the offense flows smoothly with great ball movement. With Kaman in, the Clippers inexplicably run their offense through him and the ball movement is stagnant along with the spacing bad.
> 
> Does anybody remember game 2 against Phoenix last year, when Kaman was hurt and the Clippers blew the Suns off their home-court?
> 
> Yet Dunleavy continues to start him and run the offense through him either because he knows he is solely responsible for the mega-contract he recieved, or worst yet he actually thinks the Clippers are a better team with Kaman on the court.
> 
> I'm ____, a dejected die-hard Clipper fan who realizes a championship caliber, veteran team is doomed to be anchored to the floor by two insurmountable liabilities known as Kaman and Dunleavy. Here's hoping I'm wrong, go Clips and go Dallas tommorrow."
> 
> *WE NEED A CENTER AND A COACH!!!!*


as lawler would say, "BINGO!!!"

and the uptempo thing is what i have been saying all along: run the goddam fast break...



> 4. He tried to make a 6'7, lanky, blazing fast point gaurd with amazing court vision a half-court player and NEVER let him run and play to his strengths because he only knows his way to coach, despite the fact they could have easily surrounded him with an athletic lineup (Liv, Mobley, Maggette, TT, Brand) and run and gun away.


livy, mobley, maggette, brand and thomas *can* run if you give them a chance...then as change of pace, bring in cassell and kaman to slow things up as they are both a better fit for the halfcourt sets...


----------



## yamaneko

> and the uptempo thing is what i have been saying all along: run the goddam fast break...


Yup, which is why ive said all along how i wish we would adopt SOME sense of the phoenix offense. Were not high flying, but still with people like maggette, mobley, thomas, and above average athletic big guys in brand and kaman, im sure we could do a lot more fast breaks. Funny thing is, when hart first came to the team, and didnt know the offense, did you notice how he would push the ball a lot, and get more breaks? Now that hes been here a while it seems as if dunleavvy might have limited his running because i dont see the ball pushed as much anymore. 

But we digress. The topic supposedly is about us needing an upgrade at center, and for those who are saying we do, im still waiting to hear who in the world we are suppoesd to get that would be an upgrade at center.


----------



## bootstrenf

yamaneko said:


> Yup, which is why ive said all along how i wish we would adopt SOME sense of the phoenix offense. Were not high flying, but still with people like maggette, mobley, thomas, and above average athletic big guys in brand and kaman, im sure we could do a lot more fast breaks. Funny thing is, when hart first came to the team, and didnt know the offense, did you notice how he would push the ball a lot, and get more breaks? Now that hes been here a while it seems as if dunleavvy might have limited his running because i dont see the ball pushed as much anymore.
> 
> But we digress. The topic supposedly is about us needing an upgrade at center, and for those who are saying we do, im still waiting to hear who in the world we are suppoesd to get that would be an upgrade at center.


good points in the first part...we can't run the fast break phx style because we are limited by our personel, but selectively running would've been very beneficial to our team...

to your second question about who to get to replace kaman, it wouldn't matter...we should just try to trade kaman for an expiring contract and a mid-late first rounder, and with that first rounder we could pick up a center throught the draft...plus thomas would fill next year at the 5...the biggest problem in my eyes is not kaman's level of play...it is the fact that starting next year, he will be receiving around 10 mil per year...in terms of value, that contract sucks...my main reason for moving kaman is not that he sucks outright, but he is not giving us enough for the money the clippers will be paying him...

if i had a choice, then of course i would try to move thomas and/or mobley, but what team in their right minds would want to take on those contracts??? kaman is still regarded as one of the better pure centers in the league, and teams would probably have interest in him...we need cap flexibility, and he would be the only one who could give us that through a trade...


----------



## yamaneko

> we should just try to trade kaman for an expiring contract and a mid-late first rounder, and with that first rounder we could pick up a center throught the draft...plus thomas would fill next year at the 5...


There arent many teams that have an expiring contract, and none that we could get for even close to kaman's value. The only way that would ever work, where we could actually improve our team by trading kaman, is that one i suggested a while back when gasol was on the block. Even though gasol isnt a natural center, hes a superstar, so it wouldnt matter that he doesnt fit dunleavvys style per ce. Thoas filling in at 5 is a big no no, as he has no defense for big guys, or even PF's. (remember how brand ate him up last year). Hes good for instant offense, but he will never be able to defend to dunleavvy's needs. 

Who in the middle of the draft in the world could we get that could hold kamans jockstrap? LOok at the draft history of centers drafted around there. Heck, go all the way up to the 12th pick to the 25th pick. I stopped looking at 2002. Unless you get extremely "lucky" as they say, there arent a lot of true centers who would fit on the clippers coming out in the draft, especially at those draft places. 

If I was the GM, i would have waited to give kaman the contract, until i had to match it. However, i do feel, and others on different message boards, that there probably woul dhave been a team that wouldd have given him 50 million. You can just look at center contracts the last 3-4 years and come to that conclusion. Im not sure that the clippers figured kaman would be getting 15 and 12 by next year, i dont see how they can figure someone can get that playing next to brand, so in my mind, 50 million to them must be what kaman got last year. So lets see what kind of numbers he puts up next year to see if hes going to give the clippers the value they wanted when they signed him. 

It would b ehard to trade for kaman next year, bcause hes going to have that byoc stipulation or whatever its called on guys in their first year of new contracts, making it hard to match salaries. And outside of gasol, or another superstar player, there isnt really anyone i would trade him for.


----------



## leidout

Simple truth most people haven't realized here.

The "true" center is virtually unnecessary in today's NBA, due to the limitations put on big men and the liberties given to guards, a plodding, back to the basket center is not nearly as valuable as one of the new PF/C players like Gasol, Okafor, Howard, Brand, Duncan, Amare, Bosh, Okur, J.O'neal, etc.

Yao, Shaq, Camby, Kaman, Zydrunes (sp) are just holdovers from another era where strength & size were important in big men instead of athleticism. Of course a few players can survive in this style because they are good basketball players, but the vast majority of the playing time and success goes to the PF/C players who are quicker and have a decent range to shoot from.

Look at the "center" in the top teams in the NBA (above .600):
Dallas - Diop & Dampier
Phoenix - Amare & Diaw 
San Antonio - Elson & Duncan
Detroit - Webber & Mohammed
Utah - Boozer & Okur
Houston - Yao 
Chicago - Wallace

The only players who even come close to the "true" center mold are Elson, Mohammed & Yao, and of those 3, only one makes an actual impact on whether his team wins or loses. 

So with that said, we don't need Kaman, many of us have seen the clippers use Brand as a PF/C and been even more effective than trying to use a "true" center in our scheme.


----------



## swift88

I don't know what's wrong with Kaman, he has all the skills to be a good center. All he needs is loose a little bit of weight, work on his hop, and have the will to dominate like Zo


----------



## yamaneko

> The "true" center is virtually unnecessary in today's NBA


I dont know if its "unncessary." I think its just that there arent that many decent bigs left around. Barely any come out of high school, barely any really good products out of college. This years draft has a lot of big men, oden of course being a once in a decade talent, but im not even sure how many of those guys will make an impact. I think instead of it being "uncessary", its just teams having to change up offenses, because there just arent that many true centers who are any good anymore. 

But still, the big guys get HUGE HUGE HUGE contracts, which shows that teams still value such players. Nene, dalembert, curry, foyle, dampier, blount, etc. Then you look at even the "scrub" big guys and how they get way over what a scrub othe rposition guy would get like jerome james, etc. 

We are one of the teams who DO need someone like kaman, because brand has shown that while he can be effective at times, he cant play even half a game at center, and be totally sucessful. Brand is a great defender, but i dont know if its people getting position on him or what. But watch tonights game, watch the majority of the games this year, brand gets scored on, one on one, way more than kaman or thomas, yet brand is the best defender. Thats something i really cant explain nor understand. Maybe because even when kaman is out there, he much of the time guards the opposing teams center, i dont know. 

If we had the phoenix or golden state offense, id be like, hey, lets give kaman 30 million, and if he rejects, trade him....because, yes we wouldnt need a big center. But as long as dunleavvy is coach here, we will always need a big body in the middle. Otherwise (aside from effort), dont you think they would have chosen Wilcox as the guy to extend over kaman? Dont you think they would have chosen mikki moore as the guy to keep instead of rebraca? Dont you think they would have chosen finesse big man like pittsnoogle in the draft instead of davis? Dunleavys offense requires big bodies.


----------



## yamaneko

> I don't know what's wrong with Kaman, he has all the skills to be a good center. All he needs is loose a little bit of weight, work on his hop, and have the will to dominate like Zo


I dont remember the specifics, but i thought i read somewhere at one of those combines, he actually had better vertical leap than a lot of guys...he was above average. I dont understand why he doesnt use it to dunk the ball...maybe his timing is just off, i have no idea. but then again if his timing is so off, why can he time blocks so well? Zo is an interesting comparison potentially. I think its a lot more accurate than people saying hes a white tim duncan.


----------



## joe shmoe

swift88 said:


> I don't know what's wrong with Kaman, he has all the skills to be a good center. All he needs is loose a little bit of weight, work on his hop, and have the will to dominate like Zo




Kamen frustrates the hell out of me. why doesn't he dunk the ball when he's right under the basket? instead he goes for a simple soft bank shot that he ends up missing 75% of the time  :curse: he's got all the skill, size and power but he rarely uses it.


----------



## B_&_B

Maggette for Magloire? :biggrin:


----------



## yamaneko

that would be terrible.


----------



## B_&_B

yamaneko said:


> that would be terrible.


Terrible? I think thats going a little to far. Compare Kaman and Magloires stats for the month of April. Magloire has a slight edge.

A resigned Magloire and a 2nd round pick for Maggette? :wink:

Everyone knows the Clippers have to trade Maggette... that lowers his value.


----------



## qross1fan

B_&_B said:


> Terrible? I think thats going a little to far. Compare Kaman and Magloires stats for the month of April. Magloire has a slight edge.
> 
> A resigned Magloire and a 2nd round pick for Maggette? :wink:


Make it Magloire + Outlaw + 09 1st and you got it .


----------



## B_&_B

qross1fan said:


> Make it Magloire + Outlaw and you got it .


Outlaw has been a stud the last few games. I'm curious to see what kind of offers he gets this offseason.


----------



## yamaneko

> Terrible? I think thats going a little to far. Compare Kaman and Magloires stats for the month of April. Magloire has a slight edge.


Youre completely missing the point. Why would we trade a weak position for us, guard/wing for a position where we have 36 million a year tied up in? (thomas/brand/kaman). Who is going to be our rotation for guard next year? If we trade maggette, its got to be for another wing player, or else a nice draft pick of someone ready to play the position. it would be idiotic to trade for our 4th bigman, and pay him 8 million or whatever he wants to get. And if magloire, on one of the weakest teams around, plus a team without its good bigs, can barely make the numbers that kaman makes in his "worst year" playing along side brand, then magloire might be finished. (as a top echelon big man)


----------



## yamaneko

off topic, but since were talking about trading maggette, wonder if theres any possibliity of sign and trade to get gerald wallace. He seems like a guy who would do well in the dunleavvy offense.


----------

