# Is Kareem the greatest player of all-time?



## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

-6 championships
-6 MVPs
-most career points
-decorated college player
-longevity

I've always thought Jordan was the greatest, but I've been reading about Kareem Abdul Jabbar and people have said he deserves more recognition by being considered the greatest.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

no


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

You could certainly make an argument. He's one of a few guys that I wouldn't argue for or against.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Luke said:


> You could certainly make an argument.


Oh really.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Nobody can hold Jordan's jockstrap! Scoring titles!


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Great argument.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

I just can't put him ahead of Wilt or MJ. Can't do it.


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

OH, so no one called this a troll thread? lol Do I suspect favoritism for certain posters? I'm quite sure if a no-name poster posed this same question, he or she would quickly be labeled troll. lol 

Anyway, in case the original poster is not trolling, I would like to know why would you factor in "championships?" 

If we factor in championships, then doesn't that put Robert Horry in the discussion of greatest of all time?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

JBKB said:


> OH, so no one called this a troll thread? lol Do I suspect favoritism for certain posters? I'm quite sure if a no-name poster posed this same question, he or she would quickly be labeled troll. lol
> 
> Anyway, in case the original poster is not trolling, I would like to know why would you factor in "championships?"
> 
> If we factor in championships, then doesn't that put Robert Horry in the discussion of greatest of all time?


How could this be considered a troll thread? Tons of people smarter than
you and I would call him the greatest. 


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

Jamel Irief said:


> How could this be considered a troll thread? Tons of people smarter than
> you and I would call him the greatest.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Well I question if it is a troll thread because pretty much everyone considers Michael Jordan to be the greatest of all time. For that reason alone, it makes readers question whether or not this poster is serious, or is he just trying to get a huge reaction out of die-hard Jordan fans while he sits back laughing and eating a buttery bowl of popcorn. 

Anyway, I have noticed that certain posters can make threads that could be questioned as troll threads and get away with it simply because they are more popular than others. No big deal though. 

Back to the question at hand. You're right! I never understood myself why Michael Jordan is greatest of all time without a thorough debate. Michael Jordan himself even considered his brother Larry Jordan to be far better than him. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even in his prime, Michael Jordan never once beat Larry Jordan in a one-on-one game. 

Larry Jordan could have easily been an NBA player, but a life of basketball was simply a lifestyle he was not interested in pursuing.


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

I also think Jordan is the greatest, but I just wanted to incite a discussion. There was no hidden agenda with this thread.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Mattsanity said:


> -6 championships
> -6 MVPs
> -most career points
> -decorated college player
> ...


If one considers also his College career (which, IIRC, is the greatest amongst the 4, 5 players people talk about being the GOAT) then yes, he is in the discussion as the Greatest Ever.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

JBKB said:


> Well I question if it is a troll thread because pretty much everyone considers Michael Jordan to be the greatest of all time. For that reason alone, it makes readers question whether or not this poster is serious, or is he just trying to get a huge reaction out of die-hard Jordan fans while he sits back laughing and eating a buttery bowl of popcorn.
> 
> Anyway, I have noticed that certain posters can make threads that could be questioned as troll threads and get away with it simply because they are more popular than others. No big deal though.
> 
> ...


thats not true at all 

michael couldn't beat his brother until he had his growth spurt after that MJ always won.

and larry did pursue a career in basketball but he was 5'8 or so , he did make that league for short guys in the early 90's


> "For his prize, he got to go to Mickey Owens baseball camp," Larry said. "Then, when I was 13 and Michael was 12, our Little League baseball coach got us involved on our first organized basketball team."
> 
> But the one-on-one battles continued.
> 
> ...


there is no such thing as a perfect basketball player so there is room for debate among Kareem , rusell,wilt lebron and MJ , those 5 are clearly on another level from other great players.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/columns/story?columnist=isaacson_melissa&id=4457017


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## Squatch (Feb 6, 2013)

Jordan was obviously great on the court (best ever imo) but it was his impact on the game of basketball, the culture, nike, etc... He changed the game, popularized the game, and made the NBA what it is today. Kareem was obviously great as well but he just didnt have the impact on the game of basketball that Jordan did which that combined with this game on the court, makes MJ the greatest of all time


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Squatch said:


> Jordan was obviously great on the court (best ever imo) but it was his impact on the game of basketball, the culture, nike, etc... He changed the game, popularized the game, and made the NBA what it is today. Kareem was obviously great as well but he just didnt have the impact on the game of basketball that Jordan did which that combined with this game on the court, makes MJ the greatest of all time


no one had the impact that wilt had simply because they had to change some rules to deal with his dominance.

but it is worth noting they had to outlaw dunking from the college game because of kareem's arrival

and he had to wear goggles because opposing players felt the only way to stop was to poke him in the eyes.

no one ever felt the need to go that far to stop Jordan...in fact the rule were changed during his time that aided him in scoring.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

They didn't change the rules to stop Jordan, but teams built entire defensive philosophies around beating him up (the Pistons, among others) or chasing him around the floor.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Dornado said:


> They didn't change the rules to stop Jordan, but teams built entire defensive philosophies around beating him up (the Pistons, among others) or chasing him around the floor.


while the pistons team agenda was to rough MJ up whenever he got away from dumars or rodman, jordan's era was built around lessening physical play on offensive players...while doing nothing to prevent offensive players from being rough...and jordan was easily the most physical guard of his time on offense.

most notably handchecking was outlawed in 1994 and increased penalties for flagrant fouls in 1990(with the pistons in mind obviously)

there was also using the forearm against players facing the basket in 1997, all helping jordan's and later kobe's post up game to flourish because it allowed them to be more physical with their defenders , than their defenders were allowed to be with them.



> In 1999, the league eliminated contact by a defender with his hands and forearms both in the backcourt and frontcourt, except on offensive players who caught the ball below the free throw line extended. Defenses were also prohibited from "re-routing" players off the ball. This freed up perimeter players who used screens to get open. Nor were defenders able any more to grab or impede offensive players setting screens. In 2001, the defensive three-second rule eliminated defenders camping out in the lane away from their offensive man to help.


http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/david_aldridge/04/22/aldridge.defenses/


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## The Big Dipper (Oct 23, 2012)

PauloCatarino said:


> If one considers also his College career (which, IIRC, is the greatest amongst the 4, 5 players people talk about being the GOAT) then yes, he is in the discussion as the Greatest Ever.


His college career is such a myth, James Worthy was the star on that NCAA championship winning team. Kareem had a far better college career, maybe it was because he was at UCLA but still that 82 team was James Worthy not MJ.

EDIT: NVM I thought you were talking about MJ.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

The Big Dipper said:


> His college career is such a myth, James Worthy was the star on that NCAA championship winning team. Kareem had a far better college career, maybe it was because he was at UCLA but still that 82 team was James Worthy not MJ.


He WAS talking about Kareem.


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## The Big Dipper (Oct 23, 2012)

I can't say 1 is the GOAT but if there were Tiers Id have Tier AAA - Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Shaq, Malone, Isaiah Thomas etc Tier AA - Bird, Magic, Russell Tier A - Wilt, Kareem and MJ, I would even put Russell here.

say what you will about Kareem and MJ but Wilt Chamberlain was a better scorer Kareem and IMO a better scorer than MJ, and even if not he was just as good, he had better defense than both, better rebounding, averaged 1 less assist a season than Jordan, hold something like 60 NBA records 

MINUTES
Most seasons leading league:	8
Most consecutive seasons leading league:	5
Highest average per game, career:	45.8
Highest average per game, season:	48.5
COMPLETE GAMES
Most, season:	79
Most consecutive, season:	47
SCORING
Most cons. seasons leading league:	*7
Most points, season:	4,029
Highest average, season:	50.4
Most points, rookie, season:	2,707
Highest average, rookie, season:	37.6
Most points, game:	100
Most points, rookie, game:	58
Most games, 50 or more, career:	118
Most games, 50 or more, season:	45
Most cons.e games, 50 or more points:	7
Most games, 40 or more, career:	271
Most games, 40 or more, season:	63
Most cons. games, 40 or more points:	14
Most cons. games, 30 or more points:	65
Most cons. games, 20 or more points:	126
Most points, one half:	59
FIELD-GOAL PERCENTAGE
Most seasons leading league:	**9
Most cons. seasons leading league:	5
Highest, season (qualifiers):	.727
Highest, game (min. 15 FG):	***1.000
Most field goals, no misses, game:	18
FIELD GOALS
Most cons. seasons leading league:	*7
Most, season:	1,597
Most cons., no misses, season:	35
Most, game:	36
Most, one half:	22
FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS
Most cons. seasons leading league:	7
Most, season:	3,159
Most, game:	63
Most, one half:	37
Most, one quarter:	21
FREE THROWS MADE
Most, game:	28
FREE THROW ATTEMPTS
Most seasons leading league:	9
Most cons. seasons leading league:	6
Most, season:	1,363
Most, game:	34
REBOUNDS
Most seasons leading league:	11
Most, career:	23,924
Highest average, career:	22.9
Most, season:	2,149
Most, rookie, season:	1,941
Most seasons, 1,000 or more:	13
Highest average, season:	27.2
Most, game:	55
Most, rookie, game:	45
DISQUALIFICATIONS
Lowest percentage, career:	****0.00
POINTS, PLAYOFFS
Most by rookie, game:	53
MINUTES, PLAYOFFS
Most, 3-game series:	144
Most, 4-game series:	195
Most, 6-game series:	296
FIELD GOALS, PLAYOFFS
Most, 7-game series:	113
Most made, game:	24
Most attempts, game:	28
Most attempts, half:	25
FIELD GOAL ATTEMPTS, PLAYOFFS
Most, 3-game series:	104
Highest field goal percentage (minimum, 8):	1.000*****
REBOUNDS, PLAYOFFS
Most, 5-game series:	160
Most, 6-game series:	171
Most, 7-game series:	220
Highest average, per game, series:	32.0
Most, game:	41
Most, half:	26
Most by rookie, game:	35
MINUTES, FINALS
Most, 5-game series:	240
REBOUNDS, FINALS
Most, 6-game series:	171
Most, half:	26
NOTES
*Tied with Michael Jordan
**Tied with Shaquille O'Neal
***Three times (15/15, 16/16, 18/18)
****Tied with several others, but played most games of any
*****Tied with 12 others
Updated as of 2005-06 season

1 or 2 of those may have been broken.

Talk about team players or team success all you want but as far as an individual goes Wilt takes the cake, if I was forced to vote for GOAT it would be WILT.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

The Big Dipper said:


> His college career is such a myth, James Worthy was the star on that NCAA championship winning team. Kareem had a far better college career, maybe it was because he was at UCLA but still that 82 team was James Worthy not MJ.


Jordan was a freshman in '82... no shame in Worthy being the bigger factor on that team. The next two years Jordan was 1st team all-american, and a Wooden award winner in '84. I don't think Jordan's college career was a 'myth'... nor do I think people really hype his college career that much. 

Nobody's college career really compares to Jabbar/Alcindor. I'm pretty sure UCLA was 88-2 in his three years there.


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## The Big Dipper (Oct 23, 2012)

Dornado said:


> Jordan was a freshman in '82... no shame in Worthy being the bigger factor on that team. The next two years Jordan was 1st team all-american, and a Wooden award winner in '84. I don't think Jordan's college career was a 'myth'... nor do I think people really hype his college career that much.
> 
> *Nobody's college career really compares to Jabbar/Alcindor*. I'm pretty sure UCLA was 88-2 in his three years there.


I hear hype about it often, and yeah you are right


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> no one had the impact that wilt had simply because they had to change some rules to deal with his dominance.
> 
> but it is worth noting they had to outlaw dunking from the college game because of kareem's arrival
> 
> ...


Good post!

When it comes to "impacting" the *game * of basketball, Wilt is in a tier of his own.

Going back to Kareem: can any basketball player in history rival Kareem's individual 10 year span from 1966-1967 to 1976-1977? 

During that period he was:
- 3 times NCAA Champ (and 3 times Final Four MOP);
- Rookie of the year;
- All-Nba 1st team (once 2nd, once not selected);
- All-D 2 times (4 times second team);
- One championship and 1 Finals VMP award;
- 5 times MVP;
- Led the league (per game) twice in scoring, once in rebounding, twice in blocks and 6 times in PER;


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## l0st1 (Jul 2, 2010)

JBKB said:


> OH, so no one called this a troll thread? lol Do I suspect favoritism for certain posters? I'm quite sure if a no-name poster posed this same question, he or she would quickly be labeled troll. lol
> 
> Anyway, in case the original poster is not trolling, I would like to know why would you factor in "championships?"
> 
> If we factor in championships, then doesn't that put Robert Horry in the discussion of greatest of all time?


This is not the same as some of your threads/posts. If you don't see the difference then you are a lost cause. 

Hell in this very thread your argument against Michael Jordan is that he lost to his brother in one-on-one games as a kid. Seriously?

Most of your threads are fine, it's your posts/opinions/reasoning that has people labeling you a troll. No favoritism, just logic.


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## jaw2929 (Dec 11, 2011)

Kareem is easily top 5 of all time. Greatest? No. Jordan has that & always will. But I would put Abdul-Jabbar over Chamberlain all day long.


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## The Big Dipper (Oct 23, 2012)

jaw2929 said:


> Kareem is easily top 5 of all time. Greatest? No. Jordan has that & always will. But I would put Abdul-Jabbar over Chamberlain all day long.


How can Jabbar be over Chamberlain when Chamberlain should be above Jordan?

In what way are Kareem and Jordan better players than Wilt? Wilt is just 
as good a scorer as MJ (probably better)and a better scorer than Kareem a better
defender than both, and averages 1 less assist per game than MJ and 1 more than Kareem.

DAMN ROOKIES
:rant:


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## jaw2929 (Dec 11, 2011)

The Big Dipper said:


> How can Jabbar be over Chamberlain when Chamberlain should be above Jordan?
> 
> In what way are Kareem and Jordan better players than Wilt? Wilt is just
> as good a scorer as MJ (probably better)and a better scorer than Kareem a better
> ...



You alright there Dipper?

How am I a "rookie" when I joined the board before you & have more posts than you?


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## The Big Dipper (Oct 23, 2012)

jaw2929 said:


> You alright there Dipper?
> 
> How am I a "rookie" when I joined the board before you & have more posts than you?


You gonna respond to the point of my post or just the rookie part?


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## jaw2929 (Dec 11, 2011)

The Big Dipper said:


> You gonna respond to the point of my post or just the rookie part?


It's all subjective anyway. I like how you try to "belittle" me by calling me a "rookie" because you disagree with what I said. That was real mature.


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## The Big Dipper (Oct 23, 2012)

jaw2929 said:


> It's all subjective anyway. I like how you try to "belittle" me by calling me a "rookie" because you disagree with what I said. That was real mature.


"I" "like" "it" "too." 

Ahhh the famous "it's all subjective" cop out line, cool dude take care.


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## jaw2929 (Dec 11, 2011)

The Big Dipper said:


> "I" "like" "it" "too."
> 
> Ahhh the famous "it's all subjective" cop out line, cool dude take care.


Famous, because it's true?


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## The Big Dipper (Oct 23, 2012)

jaw2929 said:


> Famous, because it's true?


sure.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

Naw - Top Five


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## jaw2929 (Dec 11, 2011)

The Big Dipper said:


> sure.


Thought so, rookie.


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## The Big Dipper (Oct 23, 2012)

jaw2929 said:


> Thought so, rookie.


:mrt:


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

And Lebron is obviously going to take that crown in 5 years anyway. But Kareem was amazing


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## jaw2929 (Dec 11, 2011)

doctordrizzay said:


> And Lebron is obviously going to take that crown in 5 years anyway. But Kareem was amazing



I don't get how people can say this. How do you know what he'll have accomplished (or not accomplished) in 5 years?


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

jaw2929 said:


> I don't get how people can say this. How do you know what he'll have accomplished (or not accomplished) in 5 years?


Because he's a troll that's how.


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

Be careful stating which NBA player is best. Some players played under different rules and fiercer competition than others. That alone makes the discussion difficult. Also, if number of championships is a criterium, then lets not exclude Robert Horry!


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

l0st1 said:


> Hell in this very thread your argument against Michael Jordan is that he lost to his brother in one-on-one games as a kid. Seriously?


Michael Jordan himself said his brother Larry Jordan was his toughest opponent ever. In fact, according to ESPN, their father James Jordan said *"Larry had the real basketball talent in the family." *

Oh, here is the ESPN source for the James Jordan statement. Also, it can be deduced from the article that Larry Jordan was defeating Michael Jordan not only as a kid, but even in Michael Jordan's adulthood. 

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/columns/story?columnist=isaacson_melissa&id=4457017


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

JBKB said:


> Michael Jordan himself said his brother Larry Jordan was his toughest opponent ever. In fact, according to ESPN, their father James Jordan said *"Larry had the real basketball talent in the family." *
> 
> Oh, here is the ESPN source for the James Jordan statement. Also, it can be deduced from the article that Larry Jordan was defeating Michael Jordan not only as a kid, but even in Michael Jordan's adulthood.
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/columns/story?columnist=isaacson_melissa&id=4457017


So in the article Larry Jordan says...


> "I won most of them until he started to outgrow me," said Larry, "and then that was the end of that."


and you say "it can be deduced from the article that Larry was defeating Michael Jordan not only as a kid, but even in Michael Jordan's adulthood."

You do realize that the statement "that was the end of that" would lead a reasonable person to deduce the opposite of what you said, right? What's crazy to me is that someone already pointed this out to you, and yet you re-posted this nonsense.


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

These are not my words, but very interesting words indeed: 

* "Michael Jordan idolized his older brother Larry who wore 45. He thought he had half his skills. His brother wore 45. Half of that is 22.5. Round that off and that's 23. When Jordan came back to the Bulls after his first retirement, he briefly wore the number 45 before going back to #23 in the 1996-97 season. Michael wanted to be half the man Larry was so he divided 45 by 2 and rounded it up to 23." *


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

This has got to be the first documented case of a kid looking up to his big brother ever.


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## l0st1 (Jul 2, 2010)

Dornado said:


> So in the article Larry Jordan says...
> 
> and you say "it can be deduced from the article that Larry was defeating Michael Jordan not only as a kid, but even in Michael Jordan's adulthood."
> 
> You do realize that the statement "that was the end of that" would lead a reasonable person to deduce the opposite of what you said, right? What's crazy to me is that someone already pointed this out to you, and yet you re-posted this nonsense.


Thanks for saying that for me.



JBKB said:


> These are not my words, but very interesting words indeed:
> 
> * "Michael Jordan idolized his older brother Larry who wore 45. He thought he had half his skills. His brother wore 45. Half of that is 22.5. Round that off and that's 23. When Jordan came back to the Bulls after his first retirement, he briefly wore the number 45 before going back to #23 in the 1996-97 season. Michael wanted to be half the man Larry was so he divided 45 by 2 and rounded it up to 23." *


Wait.... what? What does this have to do with anything? Assuming this is actually true and now some ridiculous opinion filled babble, it says half the MAN not PLAYER. So it really has nothing to do with this thread. But way to sidestep Dornado's point.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

JBKB said:


> These are not my words, but very interesting words indeed:
> 
> * "Michael Jordan idolized his older brother Larry who wore 45. He thought he had half his skills. His brother wore 45. Half of that is 22.5. Round that off and that's 23. When Jordan came back to the Bulls after his first retirement, he briefly wore the number 45 before going back to #23 in the 1996-97 season. Michael wanted to be half the man Larry was so he divided 45 by 2 and rounded it up to 23." *


I don't see what you're trying to prove with that statement...it doesn't discredit anything that anyone's said it's just more pointless jibberish from you.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Back to Kareem: will anybody provide any *meaningfull *info why he should/shouldn't be regarded as GOAT material?


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

I know I made this thread, but these are why I think KAJ isn't the greatest: 

-Kareem was the finals MVP only twice. That's significant because that means he played second fiddle to Magic for several championships. 
-He had a 9 year drought before winning his 2nd title with the help of Magic's classic game. He still should've won the 1980 finals MVP though. 
-The Bucks lost at home in the 1974 finals. Jordan didn't go to 7 games but I doubt he would've let a championship slide in the last game. 
-Kareem has the most career points but only 2 scoring titles. Jordan has 10, which proves he was the more dominant scorer.
-He has one more MVP than Jordan, but Jordan should've won the award in 1993 and 1997. 
-His teams were 6/10 in the NBA finals. That's equal to Jordan's rings, but he went 6/6. It's like saying a player shooting 6/10 from the free throw line is better than a player who shoots 6/6 from the line. Rings are obviously a team accomplishment, but Jordan's 6 titles seem more impressive since his team won in clusters of 3 straight. 

I won't use the argument of playing in a weak era. Both players dominated their eras because that's simply when they were playing.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Mattsanity said:


> I know I made this thread, but these are why I think KAJ isn't the greatest:
> 
> -Kareem was the finals MVP only twice. That's significant because that means he played second fiddle to Magic for several championships.
> -He had a 9 year drought before winning his 2nd title with the help of Magic's classic game. He still should've won the 1980 finals MVP though.
> ...


Don't you think player's College career should matter regarding the over-all career?


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> Don't you think player's College career should matter regarding the over-all career?


I'm a little biased towards the NBA but college certainly does matter. Kareem's college career trumps Jordan's, but I just feel like Jordan's accomplishments as a pro are second to none.


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## l0st1 (Jul 2, 2010)

MVP award is such a sketchy qualifier. I mean honestly if we are talking the GOAT shouldn't they have gotten EVERY MVP during the tenure in the league?


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

l0st1 said:


> MVP award is such a sketchy qualifier. I mean honestly if we are talking the GOAT shouldn't they have gotten EVERY MVP during the tenure in the league?


yeah, I know what you mean. Lebron should've been the MVP like 5 straight seasons since 2009, including this season


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## JBKB (Jan 12, 2013)

There are far too many variables to put together a formula of who is the GOAT. 

If we go by championships, then Bill Russell is GOAT. Do we determine GOAT by great offense or defense, or must the GOAT possess both? Does offense carry more wait than defense, or is it a tie? What about era? How do we measure competition across eras? What about health, training and equipment? Surely training equipment has become more advanced over the years, and the healthcare of today benefits today's players far more than the healthcare of the past did for yesterday's players. 

If GOAT were a fact, then there would be no disagreement about who is GOAT. GOAT is simply an opinion that cannot be proven right nor wrong. There are hardcore Wilt Chamberlain fans who say Wilt is GOAT. I've also heard some say Magic is the GOAT. In fact, I've even heard some argue why Larry Bird is the GOAT. Who is right and who is wrong? Well, we don't know because it's all just an opinion. Someone can technically put forth an argument that Luke Walton is among the greatest players to ever play the game, and I personally have a wonderfully written article that outlines Luke's amazing talent during his Lakers tenure.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

Not to knock or discredit anyone, but its hard for me as a older gentleman to see 16-25 year olds proclaim Jordan the best when you have never seen other greats play. This age bracket even caught the tail end of MJ "Dominance" as a player. I dont know if there is a specific GOAT. But there is a triumvirate IMO of Wilt, Kareem, MJ in no particular order and then its the next tier. There have been so many GREAT players through time, Magic, Oscar Robertson, Tim Duncan, Bill Russell. Too much talent. Michael Jordan making basketball relevant has no bearing on what happens on the court and that gets blurred to often in this goat discussion. It is whats happened on the court and thats it. Kareem makes a case, Wilt makes a case and so does Jordan. When I see people say no one will ever supplant Jordan, that makes no sense. Its called the circle of life and at some point someone else will come along better. It may have been Kobe, it may be Lebron or Durant, or some young boy thats sitting on the bench in AAU just awaiting his turn.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

l0st1 said:


> MVP award is such a sketchy qualifier. I mean honestly if we are talking the GOAT shouldn't they have gotten EVERY MVP during the tenure in the league?


Sir Charles and The Mailman both got MVP awards during Mike's prime so what's that worth? No one has gotten every MVP award, it's too subjective - it's an easy argument to make that Kareem was jobbed out of a couple in 70s just like Mike was in the 90s


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

e-monk said:


> Sir Charles and The Mailman both got MVP awards during Mike's prime so what's that worth? No one has gotten every MVP award, it's too subjective - it's an easy argument to make that Kareem was jobbed out of a couple in 70s just like Mike was in the 90s


That's why Kareem's 6 MVP's can't be argued against Jordan. This is like saying Nash > O'Neal because he won 1 more MVP.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Mattsanity said:


> That's why Kareem's 6 MVP's can't be argued against Jordan. This is like saying Nash > O'Neal because he won 1 more MVP.


or you could say that Kareem should have 8 MVP awards - he was the most dominant player in the 70s in the same way that Mike was the most dominant in the 90s - and that + voter fatigue swayed by nice narrative is about all you can take away in either case


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Or you could just ignore MVP awards, since they're meaningless.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Floods said:


> Or you could just ignore MVP awards, since they're meaningless.


except that they're not meaningless - they're flawed and subjective but not entirely meaningless - they're usually close to right despite odd exceptions and if you know a thing or two contextually (like say Sir Charles got traded and the Suns were suddenly relevant etc) then you can kind of decipher what was happening in the voters minds

your real problem here is that there is really no objective metric at all when it comes to comparing two different players from different eras, especially players at different positions with vastlyy different roles and responsibilities and in fact it's a phrase like "the greatest of all time" that is ultimately meaningless


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

They're entirely meaningless. Because they're not earned, they're given. It's based entirely on the opinions of a select group of subjective people who don't even try to hide their bias. That's a bullshit award if there ever was one. The credentials of the people holding these votes don't mean dick, because they're doing an awful job. I don't care who they are.

If the award had any real credibility, then Jordan would have won it every single year from 87-88 through 97-98, excluding his two retirement years. After Jordan's second retirement, Shaq should have won it the next five seaons, up until 03-04. But he didn't, despite _clearly_ being the most dominant force in the league. LeBron should be working on his fifth straight MVP right now. But he's not, Shaq didn't, and Jordan didn't, because the MVP voters have the attention spans of ADHD schoolgirls and always want the _new_ people to win it. They only care about novelty.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Floods said:


> They're entirely meaningless. Because they're not earned, they're given. It's based entirely on the opinions of a select group of subjective people who don't even try to hide their bias. That's a bullshit award if there ever was one. The credentials of the people holding these votes don't mean dick, because they're doing an awful job. I don't care who they are.
> 
> If the award had any real credibility, then Jordan would have won it every single year from 87-88 through 97-98, excluding his two retirement years. After Jordan's second retirement, Shaq should have won it the next five seaons, up until 03-04. But he didn't, despite _clearly_ being the most dominant force in the league. LeBron should be working on his fifth straight MVP right now. But he's not, Shaq didn't, and Jordan didn't, because the MVP voters have the attention spans of ADHD schoolgirls and always want the _new_ people to win it. They only care about novelty.


on this i agree , they should go back to letting players vote for the award.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Da Grinch said:


> on this i agree , *they should go back to letting players vote for the award*.


all of Kareem's came from 79-80 or before so I guess that makes his more legit

you dont like the MVP, you cant count on all start balloting because fans bias that vote, titles are a team achievement, entry in the hall is mitigated by standards having to do with factors outside performance in just the NBA, stats across different eras are problematic so what's left?


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Da Grinch said:


> on this i agree , they should go back to letting players vote for the award.


I don't care what they do about the award itself, I just want people debating basketball to stop bringing it up like it does anything for their argument.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Kareem's were voted on by the players so they do have more meaning than Mike's

and there is nothing to debate using your reasoning, awards dont have meaning, stats are problematic, titles are a team acheivement - there's no way to compare the players - especially two players who play at different positions


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

e-monk said:


> all of Kareem's came from 79-80 or before so I guess that makes his more legit
> 
> you dont like the MVP, you cant count on all start balloting because fans bias that vote, titles are a team achievement, entry in the hall is mitigated by standards having to do with factors outside performance in just the NBA, stats across different eras are problematic so what's left?


level of play, how you perform under different circumstances , the only things that really matter.

everything else is controlled by other factors ...but the level you play at is something only that person controls, and how you handle the events presented to you speaks to your ability as well. 

mvp's are often given to the best story and media darlings .(nash, rose even k.malone and barkley)

titles are usually to the stars with the best supporting cast .

HOF appointments come with college and international accomplishments as well.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Look, everyone has agreed that the level of athleticism today is much greater than it was back then. Everyone has agreed on this. The greatest attribute that these guys gave was to solidify the league and progress African Americans in society. These guys paved the way for every subsequent athlete, but in no way was that league as talented as this league.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Hyperion said:


> Look, everyone has agreed that the level of athleticism today is much greater than it was back then. Everyone has agreed on this. The greatest attribute that these guys gave was to solidify the league and progress African Americans in society. These guys paved the way for every subsequent athlete, but in no way was that league as talented as this league.


really? did they? I missed that meeting - I wonder if anyone brought up the fact that David Thompson had the same vertical as Mike

and fyi Mike doesnt play 'today' either but his vertical as well as a number of other 'unatheletic' former players is still better than most anyone playing today (and while we're at it have a look at my avatar)

to Da Grinch's point who was Mike's competition? what SGs did he face that compare historically to Walton or Lanier or Wilt or Parish or Moses or Cowens or Unseld etc?

as Roger Murdock once said: The hell I don't! LISTEN KID! I've been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA. I'm out there busting my buns every night. Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

Kareem isnt the greatest at all. Ppl talk about college but so what? We talking greatest of all times in the nba in which is jordan bar none. Kareem was dominated an awesome scorer but he only had 2 scoring titles. Sure he got 6 regular season mvp but he only had 2 finals mvp in his 6 rings. And kareem wasnt always the teams best player. Wilt was a flat out scorer no doubt but he only had 2 rings, 7 scoring titles. Yes the game change cause of wilt with the 3 point line but mj wasnt even known as a great 3 point shooter anyway lol. Mj is the greatest not only cause of 6 rings but 6 finals mvp, 5 regulae season mvp, 10 scoring titles, defensive player of the year, rookie of the year. And people seem ignored but wilt and jordan are tired in career points pergame in 30.1 but thats in a regular season in which look at the playoffs jordan average 33.4 to wilt 22.5.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

my point is that it's close enough (and much closer than some MJ fan boys realize) to have a reasonable debate between KJ, MJ and Wilt - I actually voted no in the poll but all this 'bar none' and 'hands down' talk is nonsense


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

e-monk said:


> my point is that it's close enough (and much closer than some MJ fan boys realize) to have a reasonable debate between KJ, MJ and Wilt - I actually voted no in the poll but all this 'bar none' and 'hands down' talk is nonsense


Its close between kareem and wilt but it isnt close to mj as the greatest. Ppl can make the excuse about different eras, change rules and others stuff. You ppl act like mj was in a weaker era in which in fact he wasnt. Mj wasnt known as a 3 point shooter. He's known to dunk on ppl, drive in, fadeaway, 2 point jumpshot and oh well he can fly. Mj was a flat out an awesome scorer in which edvidence of him winning 10 scoring titles. Mj has done it all basically in his career. Again look at his accomplishment, 6 rings, 6 finals mvp, 10 scoring titles, defensive player of the year, rookie of the year. Look at career points pergame in which in regular season he tied with wilt. But look in playoffs career points pergame 33.5. <<<Which player not name jordan has average that in their playoffs career?


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

e-monk said:


> really? did they? I missed that meeting - I wonder if anyone brought up the fact that David Thompson had the same vertical as Mike
> 
> and fyi Mike doesnt play 'today' either but his vertical as well as a number of other 'unatheletic' former players is still better than most anyone playing today (and while we're at it have a look at my avatar)
> 
> ...


Who was jordan's competition? lol really? In the 90's was easily one of the toughest eras. Who did jordan face in the sg position? Hmm so you saying guys like drexler, richmond, miller, starks, dumar was a bunch of scrubs? LMFAO!!


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

rayz789 said:


> Its close between kareem and wilt but it isnt close to mj as the greatest. Ppl can make the excuse about different eras, change rules and others stuff. You ppl act like mj was in a weaker era in which in fact he wasnt.


yeah he totally was, sorry but you're flat out wrong and biased on that, 6 expansion teams in 6 years and the effects of a capped salary structure are facts say what you like


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

rayz789 said:


> Who was jordan's competition? lol really? In the 90's was easily one of the toughest eras. Who did jordan face in the sg position? Hmm so you saying guys like drexler, richmond, miller, starks, dumar was a bunch of scrubs? LMFAO!!


lmfao!!? = tiresome, maybe use a smiley next time for more effective debate strategy...

yes, compared to the centers Kareem faced someone like Jon Starks is a ****ing scrub and the rest arent much better

and see my post above about the 90s - it's totally valid that it be your _favorite_ era but just because you lived through it doesnt make it the best - the 80s were much more competitive as were most of the 60s pre ABA split as is today's era (maybe, arguably)


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

e-monk said:


> lmfao!!? = tiresome, maybe use a smiley next time for more effective debate strategy...
> 
> yes, compared to the centers Kareem faced someone like Jon Starks is a ****ing scrub and the rest arent much better
> 
> and see my post above about the 90s - it's totally valid that it be your _favorite_ era but just because you lived through it doesnt make it the best - the 80s were much more competitive as were most of the 60s pre ABA split as is today's era (maybe, arguably)


Are you kidding? lol the 90's was just as competitive. The bad boys pistons in 90-91, ewings knicks, mourning heat, miller pacers, paytons sonics, malone jazz, hakeem rockets, david spurs, barkley suns i can go on and on but i'm proving the 90's era was very tough point blank. Shit in the 90's era had one of the best centers in shaq, ewing, hakeem, mourning, mutumbo in which jordan dunk on. Sure jordan face in the sg are not the level of who kareem face in the center position but so what? lol really? Again jordan isnt known as a 3 point shooter anyway. Jordan mostly had to pass by dominate centers to dunk or layups in which he mostly does. And look jordan's team compare to kareem? Again kareem 6th rings, he wasnt the best player in all 6th ring in which proves my point. Remember kareem's last 6 ring he was 40 years old in which he didnt even come close of playing like a dominate center at all. Hell kareem 2nd ring he didnt even play in game 6 vs the sixers in philly in which thanks to magic playing as a center, kareem got his 2nd ring. In all 6th ring jordan won, he always was the bulls number 1 best player and won all 6 finals mvp and never lost in the finals and jordan in the finals never went to game 7. Say what you want but the prove is in the pudding.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

rayz789 said:


> Who was jordan's competition? lol really? In the 90's was easily one of the toughest eras. Who did jordan face in the sg position? Hmm so you saying guys like drexler, richmond, miller, starks, dumar was a bunch of scrubs? LMFAO!!


MJ threw up his best stats in 87-88 according to PER

11 team conference , these are his opposing starting 2 guards in the eastern conference

jeff malone
dumars 
ainge
g. wilkins
albert king
otis birdsong
john long
randy wittman
alvin robertson
ron harper

1 HOF in 10

now kareem's in his best year according to PER and the starting centers in his conference

tom boewinkle
neal walk
bob lanier
abdul-aziz
schlueter
nate thurmond
elvin hayes
wilt

4 HOF's in 8 

you can make the same case with finals opposition 
jordan faced byron scott, jeff hornecek, hersey hawkins clyde drexler and dan marjerle
1 in 5 HOF's 0 past the age of 30

, moses malone cowens, darryl dawkins, robert parrish, wes unseld bill lambeer caldwell jones 

thats 4 out of 7 in the hall of fame.
2 in his 20's, 2 in his 30's

its only natural to wonder what jordan's legacy would be like if he had to face hall of famers in their prime late 20's like parish and malone while he is in his 30's and on his athletic downside. like kareem did.

if he had his flu game had to guard a 28 year old kobe or wade instead of a 34 yr. old jeff hornacek...would the game and conversely the common view of jordan be different?

clearly kareem is going up against better competition and that has to be weighed in any comparison.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

rayz789 said:


> Are you kidding? lol the 90's was just as competitive..


you're uneducated, allow me to make a simple case

Karl Malone + Jon Stockton (in their physical primes) + 2 time DPoY + all else equal or arguably better (than later) = 2nd round out

vs

Karl Malone + Jon Stockton (in their mid 30s) + Ostertag = take the opportunity afforded to you to listen to people who know what they're talking about and you will learn something

here's to your education.... you're welcome


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

e-monk said:


> you're uneducated, allow me to make a simple case
> 
> Karl Malone + Jon Stockton (in their physical primes) + 2 time DPoY + all else equal or arguably better (than later) = 2nd round out
> 
> ...


I'm having deja vu... are you doing that thing again where you combine all of the best parts of the Jazz teams from the 80's to make them seem like they were as good/better than those Jazz teams of the mid-90's?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Dornado said:


> I'm having deja vu... are you doing that thing again where you combine all of the best parts of the Jazz teams from the 80's to make them seem like they were as good/better than those Jazz teams of the mid-90's?


in 88-89 Eaton was reigining DPOY at the same time Stockton and Malone were 26/27 and Thurl Bailey (at age 28) was better than anyone not named Stockton or Malone on the later teams and they won 51 games and didnt get out of the first round, the season after that with Stockton/Malone aged 27/28 they won 55 games and were subsequently bounced in the first round - which part is confusing to you?


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

e-monk said:


> in 88-89 Eaton was reigining DPOY at the same time Stockton and Malone were 26/27 and Thurl Bailey (at age 28) was better than anyone not named Stockton or Malone on the later teams and they won 51 games and didnt get out of the first round, the season after that with Stockton/Malone aged 27/28 they won 55 games and were subsequently bounced in the first round - which part is confusing to you?


Thurl Bailey had decent touch but was an average defender and a terrible rebounder for a guy his size... Jeff Hornacek was without a doubt a better all-round player (and, incidentally, helped bounce the Jazz out in '90). Anyway, that 88-89 team had shit for depth and switched coaches (Layden to Sloan) in November/December. The reason they got swept by Golden State was that they just weren't that good. They could defend, but they were only average in terms of offensive efficiency... as Stockton and Malone stayed together with Jerry Sloan and they added better talent those teams got more and more efficient, to the point where they had one of the best offenses in the league by 1996. The Jazz did get better over time... the product of Stockton/Malone and Sloan all getting better and smarter as they aged, as well as the benefit of continuity under one system. The Jazz were much better by the mid-90's, I think those watching basketball at the time pretty much universally recognized that. Hell, in '97-'98 they went through Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan, David Robinson and Shaquille O'Neal on their way to the finals. 

This stuff about the 90's being less competitive is only ever trotted out there by people trying to take shots at MJ. It is nonsense. Usually I hear people tie this argument to expansion, but if you look at the history of the NBA it is one marked by almost constant expansion... you'll be hard pressed to find a time when the league wasn't growing:

'66-'68 - the league went from 9 to 14 teams... guess we'll have to discount everyone that played in the late 60's/early 70's, right?

'70 - league adds 3 more teams (Braves/Clippers, Cavaliers and Trail Blazers) (17 total)

'74 - add the Jazz... (18)

'76-'77 - +Spurs, Nuggets, Pacers, Nets... (22) 

(Aside from expansion... don't we have to put asterisks next to anyone who played post ABA creation/pre-merger, since the league was watered down? Sorry Kareem.) 

'88 - Charlotte Hornets, Miami Heat (24)

'89 - Orlando Magic, Minnesota Timberwolves (26)

'95 - Grizzlies, Raptors 

'04 - Bobcats

So if the expansion of the late 80's and 90's watered down the 90's then the 80's were certainly watered down by the rapid expansion of the late 60's/'70's. In any event... it is kind of a silly argument with regard to Michael Jordan... since he played against the best guys in the '80's and '90's and took them all to school. Had MJ strolled onto a playoff team like Magic did in the 80's we probably wouldn't have had to wait very long for him to pick up his first title.

Anyway, to actually answer your question - I'm confused as to why anyone who actually watched these teams play (and maybe that is the source of my confusion) could think that the Jazz were better in 1988-1990 than they were in '96-'98.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Dornado said:


> Thurl Bailey had decent touch but was an average defender and a terrible rebounder for a guy his size... Jeff Hornacek was without a doubt a better all-round player (and, incidentally, helped bounce the Jazz out in '90). Anyway, that 88-89 team had shit for depth and switched coaches (Layden to Sloan) in November/December.


Bailey at age 28 was superior to Hornacek at age 34, sorry (Dunkenstein is probably the better hornacek cognate for those teams), Eaton vs Ostertag is a joke and the mid 90s Jazz depth was no better and we're talking about the difference between a first round out and back-to-back finals appearances




> This stuff about the 90's being less competitive is ....
> 
> 
> ....(Aside from expansion... don't we have to put asterisks next to anyone who played post ABA creation/pre-merger, since the league was watered down? Sorry Kareem.)


I actually mentioned this myself and agree




> ...So if the expansion of the late 80's and 90's watered down the 90's then the 80's were certainly watered down by the rapid expansion of the late 60's/'70's...


let me answer your question with a question, what happened to all the ABA players when the league folded? give that a moment to sink in (it'll come to you)
ps (you forgot to mention the salary cap)


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## Larry Legend (Aug 8, 2013)

Mattsanity said:


> -6 championships
> -6 MVPs
> -most career points
> -decorated college player
> ...


Jordan also won 6 championships and with 6 finals MVP,
Got 5 regular season MVP`s, 
And he is one of the best defenדe players of all time, and one of the best offense players of all time.
And Kareem is not a better leader and winner.

Jordan is the best of all time with no questions!

Jabbar also was not better than Magic and Bird that could both play great in all positions and were the best basketball geniuses, Wilt that was better defender and passer and not less in offense, and Russel that have 11 championships and could be several times the finals MVP that started only from 1969.


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

Jordan is GOAT. I hated him back then, I can't stand him now. But imo Jabbar had a bit more flaws. 

1--- Jabbar had huge problems with Moses Malone. If Jabbar is GOAT- how do they lose that series to the Rockets when a mediocre Rocket team of Moses/Robert Reid/Calvin Murphy etc beat BOTH Magic and Kareem? Jordan for example would lose to Pistons until Pippen and others matured. There was no player during Jordan's run that ever outplayed him in the playoffs. 

2--- Jabbar had problems with bulk- with Moses. Willis Reed did pretty well against him before his injuries- though Jabbar was "Alcindor" - young then. 

3-- same with someone such as Thurmond frustrating him. Who frustrated Jordan? It took the entire Piston team. They still didn't "stop him."


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

hoopfan101 said:


> Jordan is GOAT. I hated him back then, I can't stand him now. But imo Jabbar had a bit more flaws.
> 
> 1--- Jabbar had huge problems with Moses Malone. If Jabbar is GOAT- how do they lose that series to the Rockets when a mediocre Rocket team of Moses/Robert Reid/Calvin Murphy etc beat BOTH Magic and Kareem? Jordan for example would lose to Pistons until Pippen and others matured. There was no player during Jordan's run that ever outplayed him in the playoffs.
> 
> ...


jordan really never faced any players of moses malone's caliber 

malone was a 3 time mvp he was the best player in the league then in his prime , jordan never faced any player at that level in his prime , closest was facing a 23 yr old kobe when MJ was 40 (kobe dropped 55 on him in their last meeting)


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

certainly not at his own position - are Drexler, Richmond or Reggie considered in the same light as Moses? because those guys were amongst the best players at Mike's position during his prime


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Shaquille O'Neal, Magic Johnson, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Gary Payton, Isiah Thomas, Dennis Rodman, Joe Dumars, Patrick Ewing, Dominique Wilkins, James Worthy, are some of the hall of famers that Michael Jordan had to beat in the playoffs... and that's not even counting Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Chris Mullin and others that were getting up there in years.... or guys like Alonzo Mourning, Tim Hardaway, Chris Webber, Dikembe Mutombo etc...

Not a ton of 2 guards on the list, but some great wings... and a lot of talent.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Dornado said:


> Shaquille O'Neal, Magic Johnson, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Gary Payton, Isiah Thomas, Dennis Rodman, Joe Dumars, Patrick Ewing, Dominique Wilkins, James Worthy, are some of the hall of famers that Michael Jordan had to beat in the playoffs... and that's not even counting Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Chris Mullin and others that were getting up there in years.... or guys like Alonzo Mourning, Tim Hardaway, Chris Webber, Dikembe Mutombo etc...
> 
> Not a ton of 2 guards on the list, but some great wings... and a lot of talent.


yeah , but its not nearly the same going up against greats at your own position, the simple truth is the shooting guard spot was changed by MJ when jordan was drafted 6'3 and 6'4 2 guards were pretty common 

jeff malone , andrew toney, sidney moncrief otis birdsong were starting 2 guard's in jordan's conference, not scrubs who are stopgaps , good players.

but now you have this 6'6 long armed high jumping extremely skilled , extremely focused force of nature and future all time great to deal with .

when jordan retired in 98 he wasn't even that big for a shooting guard anymore , there was reggie miller , steve smith , doug christie jerry stackhouse all at least 6'6 all also in the eastern conference...it was now somewhat rare to have a 6'3 or 6'4 shooting guard of note , they tended to try to make those guys point guards where their size would be an advantage.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Dornado said:


> Shaquille O'Neal, Magic Johnson, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Gary Payton, Isiah Thomas, Dennis Rodman, Joe Dumars, Patrick Ewing, Dominique Wilkins, James Worthy, are some of the hall of famers that Michael Jordan had to beat in the playoffs... and that's not even counting Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Robert Parish, Chris Mullin and others that were getting up there in years.... or guys like Alonzo Mourning, Tim Hardaway, Chris Webber, Dikembe Mutombo etc...
> 
> Not a ton of 2 guards on the list, but some great wings... and a lot of talent.


much of that list (and many of them in more of their prime/peak seasons) + a bunch others = same for Kareem


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Da Grinch said:


> jordan really never faced any players of moses malone's caliber
> 
> malone was a 3 time mvp he was the best player in the league then in his prime , jordan never faced any player at that level in his prime , closest was facing a 23 yr old kobe when MJ was 40 (kobe dropped 55 on him in their last meeting)


Maybe he didn't face all that many 3x MVPs because he was the MVP and they couldn't EVER justify giving another player TWO MVPs over Jordan. Back then, people voted against Jordan because they didn't want him to get it every year. Had Jordan dominated the league today like he did then, he would be an 8 or 9 time league MVP. Also, he'd be at least a 3x DPOY as well.


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

Da Grinch said:


> jordan really never faced any players of moses malone's caliber
> 
> malone was a 3 time mvp he was the best player in the league then in his prime , jordan never faced any player at that level in his prime , closest was facing a 23 yr old kobe when MJ was 40 (kobe dropped 55 on him in their last meeting)


you're right. There still is no excuse when you have Magic as teammate to lose to Moses and a bunch of scrub in Houston. 

Secondly, you play your competition. Jordan never had a letdown. Jabbar vs. Rockets led by Moses was huge. 

When Jordan was rolling he got taken to 7 games twice. Once was a blowout.

Jordan at 40 is irrelevant.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

what about Mike's first 6 seasons?


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Hyperion said:


> Maybe he didn't face all that many 3x MVPs because he was the MVP and they couldn't EVER justify giving another player TWO MVPs over Jordan. Back then, people voted against Jordan because they didn't want him to get it every year. Had Jordan dominated the league today like he did then, he would be an 8 or 9 time league MVP. Also, he'd be at least a 3x DPOY as well.


actually ....larry bird was a 3 time mvp when jordan faced him in the playoffs and got swept.although its not quite the same because they dont play the same position

the point of course is that Kareem was no longer in his prime and he was facing a great player who was and he got beat.

the same happened to jordan in 86 who got beat by bird before his prime.

and its not clear how many mvp's jordan could win nowadays with Lebron running around


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

Jordan the Jerk was incredible in his first 6 seasons. Incredible. Seasons 87-88, 88-89, and 89-90 he was just sick. 

His second year - going against what I feel is GOAT Team of all-time Celts - game 3 they got him. But games 1 and 2. Sick. 

At the time Jordan couldn't shoot 3's at all - you had DJ guarding him with rim protection Parish, McHale and Walton. He did have fresh legs though. Just sick.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

and yet by your own terms he failed


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

You mean "he failed" because his team didn't win?


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Kareem won titles and MVP's like Jordan, dominated statistically like Wilt, had the longevity of a Karl Malone yet he always seems to be mentioned 4th or 5th on most people's lists. I dont think its a slap in his face that some consider guys like Wilt,Russell and Magic ahead of him, but I dont think he gets the respect he deserves. Everything about his resume says that only MJ is better


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

that's what you've been talking about right?


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

Nope.


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

For example- nowhere do I call Kareem a failure for losing to Celts of 83-84 or losing to Dave Cwons/Hondo Celts. Or losing to Walton's Blazers.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

or Mike losing to the Magic?


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

Sure monk if YOU want to consider that. That's your opinion. But when I started I said -. *There still is no excuse when you have Magic as teammate to lose to Moses and a bunch of scrub in Houston.* 

I consider Jordan's year of comeback "an excuse." All of his advanced stats were at near career lows. I don't consider that a refection of what he was when he played an entire season. It's like a player that is hurt.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

e-monk said:


> or Mike losing to the Magic?


*after spending most of the year playing baseball


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

hoopfan101 said:


> Sure monk if YOU want to consider that. That's your opinion. But when I started I said -. *There still is no excuse when you have Magic as teammate to lose to Moses and a bunch of scrub in Houston.*
> 
> I consider Jordan's year of comeback "an excuse." All of his advanced stats were at near career lows. I don't consider that a refection of what he was when he played an entire season. It's like a player that is hurt.


which year was that again? was it the one Magic missed like 45 games? the one where Moses and a bunch of scrubs (like Calvin Murphy and Robert Reid) also beat the Spurs and Kings and went to the finals? is that the season you keep harping about?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Dornado said:


> *after spending most of the year playing baseball


no no - there's no context here, context is not allowed


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## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

Luke said:


> Nobody can hold Jordan's jockstrap! Scoring titles!
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


I find it funny that most NBA fans are so dumbed down. Everything in the fan mind is made up of rings, and individual stats. That being said MJ, I want you to meet the one man that has to have three hands to wear his rings. I give you Big Bill.....:twoguns:


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## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

Russel
Kareem
Wilt

That's a class of it's own at that position.


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

e-monk said:


> which year was that again? was it the one Magic missed like 45 games? the one where Moses and a bunch of scrubs (like Calvin Murphy and Robert Reid) also beat the Spurs and Kings and went to the finals? is that the season you keep harping about?


1--Look at Magic's 80-81 season. We can look at that year and compare vs. his career average and see 80-81 he exceeded nearly every regular stat. Yet you wanted to bring up Jordan when he came back? If you think his injury - Lakers excusable to be beat -that's your opinion. 

2-- Sorry - but The Lakers team of Jabbar/Magic/Nixon/Copper/Wilkes losing to a 40-42 team with players you highlight of Robert Reid and Old Man Murphy is unacceptable. 

3--- Nice try monk. So the great Robert Reid. Way to go and try to take me literally but I must say Robert Reid is a sure-fire household name with MANY all-star appearances. I see many people in that legends game really went after this supreme player. Ok sarcasm off. He gaurded Bird tough for a time. But was he an impact player? Nope. His career defensive rating is 108. What was he? A three year tough minded defensive player that wasn't a knock down shooter but a "nice player." You're coming after me because Read was a "nice" player and I called him a scrub? Really? No all-star appearances. Nothing that good on offense. And other than 3 years on defense- not good at all. The Rockets were 40-42. The Lakers were a machine. 

4-- And way to go and mention "the name" Calvin Murphy. You mean "the great Calvin Murphy" of 80-81with already 10 years in the NBA? 

5--- And what does going to the finals supposed to mean? The sixers team of 00-01 got to NBA Finals. What would they have done if they were in the West?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

QUACK!!!!!!!!!!!


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## dreamwarrior (Jul 1, 2013)

I saw Kareem play his last two years of his career. To be honest he was pretty ineffective on the floor. He started every game he ever played and that was just out of respect. So I didn't get much of an impression of him, though old games and clips show a center who revolutionized the position much like Hakeem did. To be honest he wasn't exactly dominant on the floor. He wasn't a rebounding machine like Wilt. In the beginning of his career he was an in your face scorer but after moving to the Lakers it was all about finesse. I like Wilt better as the GOAT because he could do it all. His numbers only show how well he rebounded, but he was a good passer when asked to pass and obviously the greatest scorer of all time when asked to score. And I say specifically he scored when asked to because he had potential to score much more than he did. Not to mention his career seemed to be cut short despite putting up great numbers in his last years. As far as skills and achievements go, Wilt was the GOAT. It's hard to win rings in basketball because one player cannot completely influence a game unlike they can in baseball, football, soccer, hockey, etc. where all it takes is one run/point to win.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

hoopfan101 said:


> 1--Look at Magic's 80-81 season. We can look at that year and compare vs. his career average and see 80-81 he exceeded nearly every regular stat. Yet you wanted to bring up Jordan when he came back? If you think his injury - Lakers excusable to be beat -that's your opinion.
> 
> 2-- Sorry - but The Lakers team of Jabbar/Magic/Nixon/Copper/Wilkes losing to a 40-42 team with players you highlight of Robert Reid and Old Man Murphy is unacceptable.
> 
> ...


Regarding the 1980-1981 season and Lakers vs Rockets:

1- Moses was, obvioulsy, a beast, and one of the best players in the league (won MVP the following 2 seasons). And eventhough he wasn't surrounded by a great cast, both Reid and Murphy were valuable players. In fact, they went for 19.3 and 25.4ppg in the WCFinals against the Spurs. 
No, they weren't all-nbaers, but Murphy was a 20ppg player till that season. And if he didn't get injured in the Finals maybe the Rockets would provide a better fight against the Celtics.
Oh, and regarding the Finals: one of the losses was by 3 points (1s game), in the 4th game the Rockest only suited up 6 players (and still won).

2- The Lakers were the favourites againts the Rockets, sure. But was KAJ the most to blame for the defeat (the Lakers lost by 4, 5 and 3 points)?
KAJ averaged 26.7/16.7/4/2.7 against Mo (although shooting .462FG%).
Wilkes, who was a 22.6ppg regular season player, averaged 18ppg against the Rockets, on .438FG%. Even Magic (17ppg) shot .388FG%...
If you want to point fingers at KAJ, i don't think that this series is a good basis to do it...
Oh, and Magic was injured most of the season (as e-monk already stated) and the Coach got the boot 11 games into the following season...

That being said, and considering the thread is about KAJ and GOAT status, i'll trade you the 1980-1981 season for the 1985-1986 season (38 old KAJ's last All-Nba 1st team)...


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

dreamwarrior said:


> I saw Kareem play his last two years of his career. To be honest he was pretty ineffective on the floor. He started every game he ever played and that was just out of respect. So I didn't get much of an impression of him, though old games and clips show a center who revolutionized the position much like Hakeem did. To be honest he wasn't exactly dominant on the floor. He wasn't a rebounding machine like Wilt. In the beginning of his career he was an in your face scorer but after moving to the Lakers it was all about finesse. I like Wilt better as the GOAT because he could do it all. His numbers only show how well he rebounded, but he was a good passer when asked to pass and obviously the greatest scorer of all time when asked to score. And I say specifically he scored when asked to because he had potential to score much more than he did. Not to mention his career seemed to be cut short despite putting up great numbers in his last years. As far as skills and achievements go, Wilt was the GOAT. * It's hard to win rings in basketball because one player cannot completely influence a game unlike they can in baseball, football, soccer, hockey*, etc. where all it takes is one run/point to win.


You have this backwards - the NBA is actually the pro sports league where an individual player/superstar has the most impact.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

dreamwarrior said:


> I saw Kareem play his last two years of his career. To be honest he was pretty ineffective on the floor. He started every game he ever played and that was just out of respect. So I didn't get much of an impression of him, though old games and clips show a center who revolutionized the position much like Hakeem did.


I wouldn't say KAJ was "pretty ineffective" on the floor.
Let's keep in mind that in his last 3 seasons (ages 39, 40 and 41) he was the starting center for 2 championship teams (the first franchise to win it back-to-back since the Dinasty Celtics), went to 3 straight Finals and was a somewhat efficient scorer (only in his last season he shot below .500FG%).
Obvioulsy, he was not the rebounder he once was.
Regarding his starting status, only in his last season would i say it would be "out of respect". Till then , he still scored, and his experience was irreplaceable... 



> To be honest he wasn't exactly dominant on the floor. He wasn't a rebounding machine like Wilt. In the beginning of his career he was an in your face scorer but after moving to the Lakers it was all about finesse.


I would say that, eventhough KAJ had much success in his Lakers tenure, that team didn't play exactly to KAJ's strengths... He was NOT a fastbreak player. He as still a vital cog to the team, but the way they played suited much more Magic's and Worthy's (and Scott's) style of play than KAJ's... 



> I like Wilt better as the GOAT because he could do it all. His numbers only show how well he rebounded, but he was a good passer when asked to pass and obviously the greatest scorer of all time when asked to score. And I say specifically he scored when asked to because he had potential to score much more than he did. Not to mention his career seemed to be cut short despite putting up great numbers in his last years. As far as skills and achievements go, Wilt was the GOAT. It's hard to win rings in basketball because one player cannot completely influence a game unlike they can in baseball, football, soccer, hockey, etc. where all it takes is one run/point to win.


Yup. Wilt is the GOAT.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I consider Kareem the GOAT. I feel like he has the best overall resume and longevity. I also believe his scoring record is probably the greatest record in the game right now. You basically have to be a superstar (25ppg) for 20 years to approach that record. Kobe is a perfect example of that. He has cemented himself as a ruthless scorer with (in my opinion) the most versatile scoring skillset ever, and even he is 7k points short right now after playing 17 seasons at 25ppg. LeBron has a chance later on his career if he sustains for another decade, but that's a long ways off and a tall order. There is really nobody even on the radar other than that. It's an impressive record. 

Also, every great player has lost playoff series' including Jordan as has been demonstrated in this thread. That's really not a factor for me.


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I consider Kareem the GOAT. I feel like he has the best overall resume and longevity. I also believe his scoring record is probably the greatest record in the game right now. You basically have to be a superstar (25ppg) for 20 years to approach that record. Kobe is a perfect example of that. He has cemented himself as a ruthless scorer with (in my opinion) the most versatile scoring skillset ever, and even he is 7k points short right now after playing 17 seasons at 25ppg. LeBron has a chance later on his career if he sustains for another decade, but that's a long ways off and a tall order. There is really nobody even on the radar other than that. It's an impressive record.
> 
> Also, every great player has lost playoff series' including Jordan as has been demonstrated in this thread. That's really not a factor for me.


irParctwokr- where I disagree with your interpetation from posters or maybe even me- of "everyone loses a playoff series." I don't believe that was the point others made and it wasn't mine. Of course every one loses. But just as every player/team that wins a title- they are not equal when determining which team is greatest- the same with the player- the GOAT. Not every loss or win in comparing one vs another-- is equal. 

Jabbar had a big letdown. IMO if you are GOAT- you come to play every night. Now some nights of course you just don't have it. But in a playoff series, you could never say "jordan had a let down" until he was "done/over the hill." His comeback as well- he wasn't ready. With Jabbar and Magic - they got "ambushed." A GOAT doesn't get "ambushed." IMO part of the charcteristic of a GOAT is that they should be ready to play - in particular in a playoff series. The Lakers and their 2 superstars should NOT have let that Rocket team beat them. And it's upon the superstar(s) to see 40-42 teams don't beat their far superior talented team. 

And frankly, Kobe was much worse with his display vs Pistons. I realize he was huge vs Spurs in prior series. But his freezing out Shaq is nowhere near what we should expect.


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

*- Moses was, obviously, a beast, and one of the best players in the league (won MVP the following 2 seasons). And even though he wasn't surrounded by a great cast, both Reid and Murphy were valuable players. In fact, they went for 19.3 and 25.4ppg in the WCFinals against the Spurs. *

By the way- don’ take offense to my posts. Anyhow- first off- I think Jabbar’s teammates were far superior to Malone’s. Secondly, what Reid and Murphy do vs the Spurs is irrelevant imo. We are talking Lakers vs Rockets. Lakers had a far superior team. SO if Jabbar was GOAT and we know how great Magic is/was and we know both make their teammates much better- Moses Malone shouldn’t be able to make Reid and Murphy greater than the combo of Jabbar and Magic can make Wilkes, Cooper, and Nixon etc. 

*No, but they weren't all-nbaers, but Murphy was a 20ppg player till that season. And if he didn't get injured in the Finals maybe the Rockets would provide a better fight against the Celtics.*

But Wilkes AND Nixon were terrific players. Wilkes WAS an all-star that specific year. If you mention the year before with Murphy I’ll mention the year after with Nixon when he was nba all-star. Magic and Jabbar’s ability especially together should have separated them

*maybe the Rockets would provide a better fight against the Celtics. Oh, and regarding the Finals: one of the losses was by 3 points (1s game ), in the 4th game the Rockets only suited up 6 players (and still won).*

We’re going to talk “maybes” now? Since I’ve watched from 69-70 – the league has been filled with “maybe” scenarios. If you choose to accept that “maybe” as relevant- that’s your opinion. Bernard King is my favorite player ever. I would have loved to see him play on a real team instead of Rory Sparrow as the pg, erratic Ray Williams, an over-the-hill Truck Robinson, and in 84-85 no Cartwright. 

*2- The Lakers were the favourites against the Rockets, sure. But was KAJ the most to blame for the defeat (the Lakers lost by 4, 5 and 3 points)?*

We’re on a thread talking about GOAT. We’re talking of GOAT. The candidate “Jabbar for GOAT” also had Magic. And had an all-star and HOF player in Wilkes. Had a productive Nixon and a young Cooper. A GOAT may not be “to blame” but a GOAT doesn’t ALLOW the series loss. How often do you hear superstars say “I have to find ways to get my teammates involved?” Moses did it much, much, much better in relation to their respective talent imo. 

Final point- you are using the word “blame.” Blame isn’t the right word. This thread is about GOAT. GOAT. A GOAT doesn’t allow a 40-42 team in which he has he far superior teammates and talent to lose. Especially when the opposing player on the other team is the prime weapon playing the same position against him. I’m not saying Jabbar played bad. I’m saying he played unacceptable for a GOAT in which he had superior talented teammates.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

again, as Paulo pointed out Kareem's teammates crapped the bed in that series so it doesn't really matter if they were 'superior' historically because they weren't in that series


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

e-monk said:


> again, as Paulo pointed out Kareem's teammates crapped the bed in that series so it doesn't really matter if they were 'superior' historically because they weren't in that series


They crapped in the bed becuase Moses was outplaying Kareem- thus allowing his teammtes eaiser opportunities. Kareem was unable to get his teammates going. Moses was able to get Murphy and Reid etc going. 

You can't have it both ways about super supreme players. Give them a ton of credit for making their teammates better when they win but when they don't it all the teammates fault. This isn't like LeBron's 08-09 Cavs team. It shouldn't take as large a push to get Magic and Wilkes going. It is a lot harder to get Old Man Murphy and young kid Robert Reid than these guys.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

well if you say so


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## buduan (Jun 10, 2002)

I've always felt Kareem was far and away the GOAT. I don't know if this has been mentioned because I just don't have the time to read through 8 pages of posts. Kareem in HS got national attention that was pretty unheard of at the time. He grabbed national headlines without the benefit of ESPN or the internet. He stepped onto the UCLA campus as a freshman and was not allowed to play for the defending national champion Bruins because freshman were ineligible at the time. He led the freshman team to a 15 point victory over those defending national champs who went on to win the national championship again.

The following 3 years of his college career he went on to become the hands down greatest college player ever.

Fast forward to his NBA career and the numbers speak for themselves. He was the best center in a time when the league was built around centers. 6 titles, 6 MVP's, all time scoring leader, etc, etc, etc....

While a guy like Jordan was dominating players who were smaller and/or less athletic than him (Starks, Dumars, Ainge, Richmond, Miller, etc...) Kareem was doing it against all time greats (Unseld, Reed, Chamberlain, Lanier, etc..

It's always the latest and greatest with this society. Pretty soon we'll all be hearing how Lebron is the GOAT. 

Puke.


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

e-monk said:


> well if you say so


emonk- I hope Im not coming across badly. If others want to put KJ 1 - okay - mor epower to 'em. DOn't take offense to my posts.


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## buduan (Jun 10, 2002)

hoopfan101 said:


> irParctwokr- where I disagree with your interpetation from posters or maybe even me- of "everyone loses a playoff series." I don't believe that was the point others made and it wasn't mine. Of course every one loses. But just as every player/team that wins a title- they are not equal when determining which team is greatest- the same with the player- the GOAT. Not every loss or win in comparing one vs another-- is equal.
> 
> Jabbar had a big letdown. IMO if you are GOAT- you come to play every night. Now some nights of course you just don't have it. But in a playoff series, you could never say "jordan had a let down" until he was "done/over the hill." His comeback as well- he wasn't ready. With Jabbar and Magic - they got "ambushed." A GOAT doesn't get "ambushed." IMO part of the charcteristic of a GOAT is that they should be ready to play - in particular in a playoff series. The Lakers and their 2 superstars should NOT have let that Rocket team beat them. And it's upon the superstar(s) to see 40-42 teams don't beat their far superior talented team.
> 
> And frankly, Kobe was much worse with his display vs Pistons. I realize he was huge vs Spurs in prior series. But his freezing out Shaq is nowhere near what we should expect.


If you're going to downgrade Kareem's case for GOAT for '86 (which is silliness at its finest) then you have to do the same for Jordan when he quit on his team in the '89 playoffs.


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

buduan said:


> I've always felt Kareem was far and away the GOAT. I don't know if this has been mentioned because I just don't have the time to read through 8 pages of posts. Kareem in HS got national attention that was pretty unheard of at the time. He grabbed national headlines without the benefit of ESPN or the internet. He stepped onto the UCLA campus as a freshman and was not allowed to play for the defending national champion Bruins because freshman were ineligible at the time. He led the freshman team to a 15 point victory over those defending national champs who went on to win the national championship again.
> 
> The following 3 years of his college career he went on to become the hands down greatest college player ever.
> 
> ...


budan- On these lists I only count ABA and NBA. I'm sure most others do too. You bring up a great point- Alcindor at Power Memorial was amazng as well at UCLA. I don't count that. I will agree with you Alcindor/Jabbar number 1 if counting h/s and college. But in part I don't know what others were known for in high school. 

You heard about how the amazing Coach Wooten from DeMatha H/S beat Lew Alcindor, didn't you? Fabulous little story.


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

buduan said:


> If you're going to downgrade Kareem's case for GOAT for '86 (which is silliness at its finest) then you have to do the same for Jordan when he quit on his team in the '89 playoffs.


1--I wasn't referring to Jabbar of 86. I was referring to Jabbar of 80-81. 

2-- More details please on Jordan quitting in 89. I see he got 32 points on 16-32 shooting in the final game. He played 42 minutes. Was it in his book he said he quit trying to win?


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## buduan (Jun 10, 2002)

I took greatest player of all time to mean just that. Not just NBA. My apologies for that. Even with that considered I still have Kareem as no. 1. I think the problem is people only remember Kareem from the last half of his career where he was a shell of himself. If you saw him in the 60's, 70's, and first half of the 80's you got a clearer picture of his dominance and greatness.

I have not heard the story of coach Wooten or Dematha. I'll have to dig it up, thanks for the heads up.


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## buduan (Jun 10, 2002)

hoopfan101 said:


> 1--I wasn't referring to Jabbar of 86. I was referring to Jabbar of 80-81.
> 
> 2-- More details please on Jordan quitting in 89. I see he got 32 points on 16-32 shooting in the final game. He played 42 minutes. Was it in his book he said he quit trying to win?


Ah I see. My bad. I'm at work right now I'll have to address that later. Keep in mind Moses was considered the greatest center of the 80's And was closer to his prime than Kareem. Moses was 25 in that series whereas Kareem was already 33. There were other issues and challenges facing that Lakers team that had nothing to do with Kareem.

Do a quick Google search using keywords (Jordan quit pistons) you should find it. It was big news when it happened and he really cost the Bulls in that series in a pivotal game just to prove a point.


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

buduan said:


> I took greatest player of all time to mean just that. Not just NBA. My apologies for that. Even with that considered I still have Kareem as no. 1. I think the problem is people only remember Kareem from the last half of his career where he was a shell of himself. If you saw him in the 60's, 70's, and first half of the 80's you got a clearer picture of his dominance and greatness.
> 
> I have not heard the story of coach Wooten or Dematha. I'll have to dig it up, thanks for the heads up.


Please don't apologize. And I am "assuming" most just counted NBA/ABA. So maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe it was the OP's intention and for that I apologize. 

I saw Alcindor live in Madison Sqaure Garden when my Knicks were still among the elite teams. The Knicks were able to handle the bucks becuuase of team. But Alcindor/Jabbar was still a force. I was there when at end of game Knicks won the fans began a chant "Goodbye Lewie." 

I also saw Garden yell out every time he walked. As a Kid I finally saw what he was doing or it was explained to me. He'd catch the ball on right side a bit away from baseline in order to shoot his hook. He'd move his right foot slightly looking for cutters over his right houlder. If he found no one he'd then take a step with his left foot shooting his sky hook. He had two pivot feet. It was all so darn smooth. Hell - all tehs epros- they do thigns so fast- they carry, Jordan would walk. Offensive rebounders push off etc. Nate Thurmond said Celts would cheat like tug down pants.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

hoopfan101 said:


> They crapped in the bed becuase Moses was outplaying Kareem- thus allowing his teammtes eaiser opportunities. Kareem was unable to get his teammates going. Moses was able to get Murphy and Reid etc going.
> 
> You can't have it both ways about super supreme players. Give them a ton of credit for making their teammates better when they win but when they don't it all the teammates fault. This isn't like LeBron's 08-09 Cavs team. It shouldn't take as large a push to get Magic and Wilkes going. It is a lot harder to get Old Man Murphy and young kid Robert Reid than these guys.


It's only a validation to KAJ's candidacy (sp?) to GOAT status that you bring up ONE series in his 18 seasons of playoff play 

A series that, mind you, was "best of 3" (hence more favourable to upsets), saw the Lakers lose the clincher by 3 points and had Kareem outplay Mo by 9 points (32-23) 

Buy i'm interested to see your imput regarding KAJ's 1985-86 season (All-Nba 1st at age 38) or the 1984-85 Finals, where KAJ, at age 37, was MVP against a prime DJ/Ainge/Bird/McHale/Parish team... (in comparison, what were guys like Wilt, Magic, Jordan or Russell doing at age 37?)


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

hoopfan101 said:


> emonk- I hope Im not coming across badly. If others want to put KJ 1 - okay - mor epower to 'em. DOn't take offense to my posts.


do you see the poll results above? you can click on them and see which way I (and 28 others voted) 

it's your argument that one series should define a 20 year long career or that the series in this case is even a failure that are the main points of contention


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

PauloCatarino said:


> It's only a validation to KAJ's candidacy (sp?) to GOAT status that you bring up ONE series in his 18 seasons of playoff play
> 
> A series that, mind you, was "best of 3" (hence more favourable to upsets), saw the Lakers lose the clincher by 3 points and had Kareem outplay Mo by 9 points (32-23)
> 
> Buy i'm interested to see your imput regarding KAJ's 1985-86 season (All-Nba 1st at age 38) or the 1984-85 Finals, where KAJ, at age 37, was MVP against a prime DJ/Ainge/Bird/McHale/Parish team... (in comparison, what were guys like Wilt, Magic, Jordan or Russell doing at age 37?)


Do you have the data for Jabbar's playoffs in 71-72 and 72-73? I know over those 17 games overall he shot extremely lousy. In 72-73 can't you say Thurmond shut him down over a 6 game series? Heck- leading into that series, Lakers had won 14 in a row. Can you ever say Jordan was ever shutdown with the exception of his comeback year? 

The rules were best of 3. They got beat. I'm not supposed to count them? 

Fanatstic for Jabbar at 37 and 38. Which is why for me the top 4 of Jordan/Russell/Wilt/Jabbar will go unmatched imo for an extremely long time. I just never saw Jordan get shutdown. Jabbar did over a 6 game series vs GSW and had no buisness losing in 80-81. For me, as stated before, give me the guy that every time come money-time- is't going to get shutdown. If Jordan shoots 41% - he still is going to find a way ft line for example to get 27. Jabbar averaged 17 in the series. That was a year he averaged a bit over 30. How can his team overcome such a drop? This was when Jabbar was 25.


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

e-monk said:


> do you see the poll results above? you can click on them and see which way I (and 28 others voted)
> 
> it's your argument that one series should define a 20 year long career or that the series in this case is even a failure that are the main points of contention


huh? The poll results show what I am saying, don't they? He's up there but not GOAT imo. Are oyu getting from this that I'm "defining" his carer because I don't think he is GOAT or better than Jordan? 

I just gave you another example I sent to Paulo above. ANd my point has been you don't have any examples to throw back at me with Jordan, do you? Please do. I'm not being arcastic or mean- I just never have had anyone to convince me and I wish they could. 

I despise Jordan. Whether him and even now I hate LeBron too. I gotta give them their props.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

hoopfan101 said:


> huh? The poll results show what I am saying, don't they? He's up there but not GOAT imo. Are oyu getting from this that I'm "defining" his carer because I don't think he is GOAT or better than Jordan?


the poll results should suggest to you that most people including me don't have him up there so maybe just maybe if you and I are arguing it might be about something else 



> I just gave you another example I sent to Paulo above. ANd my point has been you don't have any examples to throw back at me with Jordan


and my point would be that your argument is flawed so why should I replicate your fallacy? if you're looking for an argument about Jordan it might be that he didn't have his title run until after the super teams of the Bird/Magic era started breaking down and that especially in the latter 3peat he was working in a watered down league


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## buduan (Jun 10, 2002)

hoopfan101 said:


> huh? The poll results show what I am saying, don't they? He's up there but not GOAT imo. Are oyu getting from this that I'm "defining" his carer because I don't think he is GOAT or better than Jordan?
> 
> I just gave you another example I sent to Paulo above. ANd my point has been you don't have any examples to throw back at me with Jordan, do you? Please do. I'm not being arcastic or mean- I just never have had anyone to convince me and I wish they could.
> 
> I despise Jordan. Whether him and even now I hate LeBron too. I gotta give them their props.


Your example is just as flawed as the previous one. Kareem had a poor shooting playoff series early in his career? So did Jordan. Any negative you can muster about Kareem the same argument can be made against Jordan. Nitpicking little failures in a players career can be done to any player. No player is immune to that.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

hoopfan101 said:


> Do you have the data for Jabbar's playoffs in 71-72 and 72-73? I know over those 17 games overall he shot extremely lousy. In 72-73 can't you say Thurmond shut him down over a 6 game series? Heck- leading into that series, Lakers had won 14 in a row. Can you ever say Jordan was ever shutdown with the exception of his comeback year?


You can try basketball-reference.com. They have plenty of data (although it's very incomplete regarding things like FG%, etc.). In those 2 playoff seasons the Bucks' KAJ averaged 33.7 against Wilt Chamberlain in the playoff series (lost). The followinf year, yeah, he played very sub-par against the Warriors (22.8ppg).



> The rules were best of 3. They got beat. I'm not supposed to count them?


No. You SHOULD count them. All i said was a shorter series favours upsets.



> Fanatstic for Jabbar at 37 and 38. Which is why for me the top 4 of Jordan/Russell/Wilt/Jabbar will go unmatched imo for an extremely long time. I just never saw Jordan get shutdown. Jabbar did over a 6 game series vs GSW and had no buisness losing in 80-81. For me, as stated before, give me the guy that every time come money-time- is't going to get shutdown. If Jordan shoots 41% - he still is going to find a way ft line for example to get 27. Jabbar averaged 17 in the series. That was a year he averaged a bit over 30. How can his team overcome such a drop? This was when Jabbar was 25.


Please keep in mind that i don't consider KAJ the GOAT. I think Wilt is. Heck, KAJ is #4 in MY list.
Regarding KAJ, it's pretty obvious it's his amazing longevity that makes people put him into the discussion. Yes, he had bad series. But he also had extraordinary seasons at an age NOBODY will ever match.

KAJ was an amazing player. Not the GOAT. I only though you were nitpicking on a series (1980-1981) that KAJ was less to blame then guys like Magic and/or Silk.


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

*the poll results should suggest to you that most people including me don't have him up there so maybe just maybe if you and I are arguing it might be about something else*

1--- Really? How can I tell that? I’m a newbie here. I look at the other thread about top ten all-time and most have him in top 5 don’t they? When I was a member of ESPN and for a while cbs it was rare to see him below 5. 

I thought I saw you are a Wilt guy by the way. Not important. 

*and my point would be that your argument is flawed so why should I replicate your fallacy?*
Then why do you keep replying to me on this subject? You know my point. I don’t believe it to be a fallacy therefore I will continue to ask the same question. I believe the question legit. It’s not like my opinion of Jordan being GOAT is a very small minority, right? It doesn’t make it right but imo I am right. 

If I think my opinion is right, then I would certainly believe your opinion on GOAT is made up of some fallacy (or fallacies) if it's not Jordan, right?


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

*You can try basketball-reference.com. They have plenty of data (although it's very incomplete regarding things like FG%, etc.). In those 2 playoff seasons the Bucks' KAJ averaged 33.7 against Wilt Chamberlain in the playoff series (lost). The followi nf year, yeah, he played very sub-par against the Warriors (22.8ppg).*

I know they don’t have is fg percentages. You were able to come up with some on another reply to me – so I thought by chance you might have with this. 

Interesting about Jabbar averaging 33.7 vs. Wilt in 71-72. Jabbar averaged 28.7 in the playoffs. It meant Thurmond held him per basketball-reference.com to approx. 22/23 per game. Which meant more than likely Jabbar’s fg% of 43.7 was mainly due to Thurmond. Which means for 2 consecutive years Thurmond held Jabbar in check. Nobody is doing that to Jordan. 

I have Jabbar 4 as well. Though for me his number 4 is tentative with Russell and Wilt. IMO I could switch those 4 based on any additional info that is passed that I think important.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

hoopfan101 said:


> *the poll results should suggest to you that most people including me don't have him up there so maybe just maybe if you and I are arguing it might be about something else*
> 
> 1--- Really? How can I tell that? I’m a newbie here. I look at the other thread about top ten all-time and most have him in top 5 don’t they? When I was a member of ESPN and for a while cbs it was rare to see him below 5.
> 
> I thought I saw you are a Wilt guy by the way. Not important.


you learn that from actually reading what I've posted - at no time did I say KAJ was the GOAT - I attacked your point re: the series against the Rockets



> *and my point would be that your argument is flawed so why should I replicate your fallacy?*
> Then why do you keep replying to me on this subject? You know my point. I don’t believe it to be a fallacy therefore I will continue to ask the same question. I believe the question legit. It’s not like my opinion of Jordan being GOAT is a very small minority, right? It doesn’t make it right but imo I am right.


are you asking why the internet exists?



> If I think my opinion is right, then I would certainly believe your opinion on GOAT is made up of some fallacy (or fallacies) if it's not Jordan, right?


no, here's a definition of the word 'fallacy' in the way I'm using it :



> invalid argument: an argument or reasoning in *which the conclusion does not follow from the premises*


your premise is wrong, your structure doesn't add up to the conclusion you are trying to draw and your examples are wrong - all of which equals an argument that is both logically invalid and unsound


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## buduan (Jun 10, 2002)

hoopfan101 said:


> *You can try basketball-reference.com. They have plenty of data (although it's very incomplete regarding things like FG%, etc.). In those 2 playoff seasons the Bucks' KAJ averaged 33.7 against Wilt Chamberlain in the playoff series (lost). The followi nf year, yeah, he played very sub-par against the Warriors (22.8ppg).*
> 
> I know they don’t have is fg percentages. You were able to come up with some on another reply to me – so I thought by chance you might have with this.
> 
> ...


I think what was more likely is that Kareem didn't have to do as much to dispatch the Warriors. They won the series pretty easily.

In the next series he raised his level of play based on need.


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

buduan said:


> Your example is just as flawed as the previous one. Kareem had a poor shooting playoff series early in his career? So did Jordan. Any negative you can muster about Kareem the same argument can be made against Jordan. Nitpicking little failures in a players career can be done to any player. No player is immune to that.


Find me series in which Jordan was held down like he was with Thrumond to just 17 ppg. For 11 games it must be around 20. Plus Jabbar was a prohibitive favorite to win like Jabbar of 72-73 and 80-81 yet still lost. 

My opinion can be changed. 

My opinions were changed with Russll over Wilt. ANd with Celts 85-86 team I didn't think they were but changed to best team ever.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

hoopfan101 said:


> Find me series in which Jordan was held down like he was with Thrumond to just 17 ppg. For 11 games it must be around 20.


What about series where Jordan shot .436FG% or .417FG%? 



> Plus Jabbar was a prohibitive favorite to win like Jabbar of 72-73 and 80-81 yet still lost.


Upsets happen all the time (more recently, Heat vs Dallas  )


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

PauloCatarino said:


> What about series where Jordan shot .436FG% or .417FG%?
> 
> 
> 
> Upsets happen all the time (more recently, Heat vs Dallas  )



I have to go- but the 41.7%. You speaking of Seattle? He averaged 27ppg. Jabbar averaged 17 ppg. Big difference. 

Iknow upsets happen all the time. I'm not talking a mild upset but a prohibitive one. What prohibitive one did Jordan lose?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

how prohibitive is it when you lose to the team that ultimately makes it to the finals? - and what share of blame appends to you when your teammates who presumably are the reason your team was the favorite in the first place all play like shit?


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## buduan (Jun 10, 2002)

hoopfan101 said:


> Find me series in which Jordan was held down like he was with Thrumond to just 17 ppg. For 11 games it must be around 20. Plus Jabbar was a prohibitive favorite to win like Jabbar of 72-73 and 80-81 yet still lost.
> 
> My opinion can be changed.
> 
> My opinions were changed with Russll over Wilt. ANd with Celts 85-86 team I didn't think they were but changed to best team ever.


I think it's a mistake to make the assumption he was held down. Maybe he just didn't want to jack up forced shots under duress the way Jordan did. 

I'll give you the series where the TEAM did not live up to expectations. But if we're considering TEAM as a reason to elevate one player over the other please reference the respective players team record improvement each player was responsible for their rookie year. Please also make note of how much immediate success the Bucks enjoyed after drafting Alcindor. Also please make note that it took Jordan 4 seasons to muster a winning record with the Bulls. And acquiring certain players had just as much to do with if not more than Jordan's play.

While Jordan led Bulls may have never lost a series they were favored in, they also never won jack till all the super teams and superstar players of the 80's faded out and they were left with a expanded watered down league.


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

*how prohibitive is it when you lose to the team that ultimately makes it to the finals? –*
Again you bring up the Finals. Again my counter is Sixers went to Finals in 00-01. What would they have done in the West that year? 


*and what share of blame appends to you when your teammates who presumably are the reason your team was the favorite in the first place all play like shit? *
They are used to having their stud superstar not shoot 46.5%but more importantly not get beat up overall. If he was GOAT, which this thread is about and the context I am speaking, he would be able to see to it that those bum HOF players (sarcasm) on his team (Magic and Wilkes) won’t play like shit vs. a 40-42 team.


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

*I think it's a mistake to make the assumption he was held down. Maybe he just didn't want to jack up forced shots under duress the way Jordan did. *
In 72-73 this is how Jabbar played. He stopped getting to the ft line much. Probably taking his hook more. Once he stops shooting – he stops playing the way his team is accustomed to all year. IMO it is too hard to change significant roles in the playoffs. For Jabbar to stop is a slow death for his team imo. 

But most importantly, look at Jabbar’s ft attempts that year. He only gets to the line just above 6 times. Take away Jordan's worst years getting to the line with Washington it exceeds Jabbar’s 72-73 year in which he got shutdown. The point is, even though Jordan bricks on occasion, his team still plays their same roles because Jordan is still attacking. He shoots lousy he can still get to the line. Thus if they are much superior, less likely to get knocked off because they haven’t been forced away from their style. Role players still doing same things they did all year. Once Jabbar stops attacking his team is forced to have players step up over a series in which they not accustomed to doing. This is why I refer to that as a slow death. 

*I'll give you the series where the TEAM did not live up to expectations. But if we're considering TEAM as a reason to elevate one player over the other please reference the respective players team record improvement each player was responsible for their rookie year. Please also make note of how much immediate success the Bucks enjoyed after drafting Alcindor. Also please make note that it took Jordan 4 seasons to muster a winning record with the Bulls. And acquiring certain players had just as much to do with if not more than Jordan's play.*
I don’t agree with the relevance of these questions. For example, Jordan’s rookie year he would have been a sr in college. Secondly, Jabbar’s era had fewer teams. Thus Jabbar’s pool of quality players he played with was higher. One player impacts the game in an enormous way. When you give that one player ample talent, they rise astronomically because both players help each other.

Look at the Mavs of 10-11. Individually did they match up to other teams? They had small pieces that fit extremely well. Mark Cuban made a comment about this about how advanced metrics can’t tell as much of the story in basketball as others. 

If you think these are relevant points for your decision, okay. Mine is different. For example, I would choose Jordan over LeBron. LeBron becomes too timid for my tastes. Others will look at his superior passing and give LeBron the nod someday. 

*While Jordan led Bulls may have never lost a series they were favored in, they also never won jack till all the super teams and superstar players of the 80's faded out and they were left with a expanded watered down league. *
I would put at 95-96 among the tops ever. As well as 91-92. Note: I have NOT gone after Jabbar or Bird etc for losing to the Lakers and vice-versa. And as stated above, as the league gets watered down, it’s harder for the superstar to have an impact when for example he passes the ball. But with Jabbar he had a tremendously talented team. 

Again if you think these are relvant points. Okay we disagree. That's okay.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

You should use the quote button so that we know who you're answering without having to look for it.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

hoopfan101 said:


> I have to go- but the 41.7%. You speaking of Seattle? He averaged 27ppg. Jabbar averaged 17 ppg. Big difference.


Against the Celtics in 1987.
Jordan scored 35.7ppg in those series, justi in case you're interested . I see you give more importance to points per game than the way a player gets them. For me, if a player is shooting .417FG%, he is not having a great series, no matter how many points he gets.



> Iknow upsets happen all the time. I'm not talking a mild upset but a prohibitive one. What prohibitive one did Jordan lose?


"Prohibitive one"? If you are comparing the competition KAJ faced to the one Jordan faced, let me see if Jordan ever faced in the Eastern Conference a player like Moses Malone... Hmmm... Nope (keep in mind i'm thinking about the "winning" Bulls teams, not the one that were getting swept when they faced another All-Time Top-10 player (at the time).

You see, you are clinging to a series where the Lakers lost 2-1, when the last game was lost by 3 points (on a questionable Magic Johnson's last possetion (sp?)) and when KAJ in fact outplayed Moses Malone in that last game to the Bulls championship years, who i think it's not very fair.
Not only the Bulls faced (much) inferior competition to win, but they (and Jordan) had difficult series against inferior teams as well. Jordan had bad (or subpar) shooting series being guarded by scrubs like Gerald Wilkins, John Starks and Craig Ehlo. They even lost 3 games (1992) to a Knicks team that had P-Ew (a much lesser player than Mo) and a bunch of role players when the Bulls were already the best team in the League...
Oh, and yes, it would be hard to lose a series when you have the best player around and the best SF in the league...


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

MJ should have let Ewing win one so that people would think of him more highly apparently... worked for Jabbar.

Edit to add: Also... Starks had an entire team full of plus defenders to help him guard MJ and still got beaten like a drum (look at TS% to get a real sense) and Ehlo and Wilkins both gave up like 36 and 32 ppg respectively against MJ on solid percentages in their playoff careers. Odd examples to use.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

you might not want to mention Starks if you're trying to jock Mike - I mean level of competition is meaningful right?


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

John Starks was a borderline all-star and a fiesty defender back in the day... and as I mentioned, the Knicks had a team full of defenders they used to try to control MJ. And they couldn't.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Dornado said:


> MJ should have let Ewing win one so that people would think of him more highly apparently... worked for Jabbar.
> 
> Edit to add: Also... Starks had an entire team full of plus defenders to help him guard MJ and still got beaten like a drum (look at TS% to get a real sense) and Ehlo and Wilkins both gave up like 36 and 32 ppg respectively against MJ on solid percentages in their playoff careers. Odd examples to use.


Sorry, but i don't understand. Does this have anything to do to what i was saying (honest question)?


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Yes.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Dornado said:


> Yes.


Alright then.


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

*Jordan scored 35.7ppg in those series, just in case you're interested . I see you give more importance to points per game than the way a player gets them. For me, if a player is shooting .417FG%, he is not having a great series, no matter how many points he gets*.

The difference is that Jordan got to the line an average of 13 times in that series. So 41.7 isn't as important. Thus Jordan's TS% was higher. Jordan got to the line over double the times Jabbar gets there. After Jabbar's 1st three years, Jabbar's free throw attempts took a huge drop. How often is Jabbar getting doubled at the right baseline? 
Jordan on the other hand, just Google "The Jordan Rules." Nearly every position on the court he is being doubled. Jordan gets to the line a ton. Thus fg% not as important of Jabbar vs. Jordan after Jabbar's 1st 3 years. 

Final point, in 09-10 look at Kobe's shot in playoffs vs. Thunder with 4.6 seconds left. He gets a half-step on his man; Collision breaks off for potential help. Ibaka loses sight of Gasol, Gasol gets into the lane virtually untouched and hits game winning layup. The moment Kobe got the half-step - the opposing team lost defensive integrity. With KAJ's hook, how often do defenses lose their integrity? How often do you see slashers beat their man, throw up a brick, only to have someone like "Chandler" dunk? All the slashers gets for that is a missed fga. These types of slashers, they create ft's and can create mayhem in the paint. In this case, Jordan's TS% is higher. 

*"Prohibitive one"? If you are comparing the competition KAJ faced to the one Jordan faced, let me see if Jordan ever faced in the Eastern Conference a player like Moses Malone... Hmmm... Nope (keep in mind I’m thinking about the "winning" Bulls teams, not the one that were getting swept when they faced another All-Time Top-10 player (at the time).*

Okay- for you that is important. That's okay. We can disagree. BTW- I am not trying to change your opinion. Anyhow, for me, competition is important but so is beating who you are supposed to beat. In Jordan's 6 year run, he got taken to 7 games just twice. And once my Knicks weren't even a threat. Thus Jordan's team got pushed to the limit once in those 6 years. Incredible. I never felt like my Knicks had a chance. 

*You see, you are clinging to a series where the Lakers lost 2-1, when the last game was lost by 3 points (on a questionable Magic Johnson's last possetion (sp?)) and when KAJ in fact outplayed Moses Malone in that last game to the Bulls championship years, who i think it's not very fair.

Not only the Bulls faced (much) inferior competition to win, but they (and Jordan) had difficult series against inferior teams as well. Jordan had bad (or subpar) shooting series being guarded by scrubs like Gerald Wilkins, John Starks and Craig Ehlo. They even lost 3 games (1992) to a Knicks team that had P-Ew (a much lesser player than Mo) and a bunch of role players when the Bulls were already the best team in the League...

You say "clinging." I say "telling." We could do "what if's" all day. What if Bill Bradley hits that shot on the baseline 15 feet away vs. Washington in 70-71? My Knicks did a number on the Bucks that year, and I firmly believe we'd have beaten them. - Matchups. Then KAJ doesn't win and Oscar never wins a title. My Knicks win 3 titles in 4 years. How would History look upon them if Bradley hit the jumper and how would Oscar be looked at? What if Memphis wasn't in Lakers pocket and Kobe never got Gasol? 

Secondly, I've heard how KAJ's teammates let him down. Yet what happened in game 1? They lost 111 to 107. Malone had 38. Jabbar had 21. KAJ got whipped. Not just beat. And I question after game 1, or maybe during, if the Lakers defense had to change allowing Old Man Murphy etc prime opportunities. 

Oh, and yes, it would be hard to lose a series when you have the best player around and the best SF in the league...[/QUOTE]*

I've put together a top 20/21 list on another thread. Other sites I have done it for years. Pippen isn't on. IMO Pippen had the great fortune of playing with Jordan. The year MJ retired, it was Pippen's prime year. And he already won titles. He didn't feel pressure after he won like Ewing or Malone that never did. Look how he melted down because he didn't get the ball on last shot vs. Knicks. What would he be like if he never won and no MJ? IMO Jordan made Pippen become the stud (Pippen is a stud) he wound up to be. That's what GOAT's do. They make players better. That's why even Magic said after he retired; "Jordan is GOAT."


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

so your argument is that the referees showing their typical favoritism (hell yes he pushed Russell) is somehow proof of something?


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

e-monk said:


> so your argument is that the referees showing their typical favoritism (hell yes he pushed Russell) is somehow proof of something?


Ohhh please. Superstars get calls. The aggressors gets calls. Jim Morrison is not alive. 

I was in a camp one time and Darly Dawkins would desribe how he was fouling Jabbar as much as possible and on tv it looks like nothing. In the Jordn Rules, you have Chuck Daly, the Coach, speaking of how his defense when Jordan comes off a pick was to "pop him." 

That Piston team - that era, the dirtiest team ever. Or rmaybe it was my Knicks. They had limited skill. Don't tell me these teams didn't get away with a lot of crap.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

so then what's your point? that Mike got to the line a lot and you're acknowledging he was the beneficiary of favoritism? I think that might be counter productive to your argument don't you? I mean if you think that teams like the Pistons or the Knicks got away with a lot in the 90s you would have loved the 70s


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

I'm done going at Jabbar. Damn imo he is number 4 all-time. And could be as high a 2. As another poster said - count h/s andcolege he woul be GOAT imo.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

you tapped a dead thread that said as much - congrats


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Russell's momentum did most of the work on that play... Jordan just gave him a nudge in the right direction.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

sure it did


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

hoopfan101 said:


> *The difference is that Jordan got to the line an average of 13 times in that series. So 41.7 isn't as important. *Thus Jordan's TS% was higher. Jordan got to the line over double the times Jabbar gets there. After Jabbar's 1st three years, Jabbar's free throw attempts took a huge drop. How often is Jabbar getting doubled at the right baseline?
> Jordan on the other hand, just Google "The Jordan Rules." Nearly every position on the court he is being doubled. Jordan gets to the line a ton. Thus fg% not as important of Jabbar vs. Jordan after Jabbar's 1st 3 years.


Jordan had 14.5FTA/p in his first playoff series (shooting .436FG%), 13FTA/G in his second (shooting .505FG%) and 13FTA/G in the series we are talking about (87 playoffs).
Against the same team, with the same amount of FTA/G, a drop from .505 to .417FG%



> Final point, in 09-10 look at Kobe's shot in playoffs vs. Thunder with 4.6 seconds left. He gets a half-step on his man; Collision breaks off for potential help. Ibaka loses sight of Gasol, Gasol gets into the lane virtually untouched and hits game winning layup. The moment Kobe got the half-step - the opposing team lost defensive integrity. With KAJ's hook, how often do defenses lose their integrity? How often do you see slashers beat their man, throw up a brick, only to have someone like "Chandler" dunk? All the slashers gets for that is a missed fga. These types of slashers, they create ft's and can create mayhem in the paint. In this case, Jordan's TS% is higher.


It's of little to no relevance regarding KAJ, considering he shot well above .500FG% over his entire career. Defense "losing integrity" or not, he couldn't be stopped .
Oh, and keep in mind that, contrary to some othe greats like, say, Moses Malone, KAK was not a black hole in offense (getting to the point where he averaged 5apg 3 times)...



> Okay- for you that is important. That's okay. We can disagree. BTW- I am not trying to change your opinion. Anyhow, for me, competition is important but so is beating who you are supposed to beat. In Jordan's 6 year run, he got taken to 7 games just twice. And once my Knicks weren't even a threat. *Thus Jordan's team got pushed to the limit once in those 6 years. Incredible*.


Exactly my point. 



> I never felt like my Knicks had a chance.


They never really did.
The only significant win of the P-Ew-led Knicks (who were a bunch of scrubs surrounding Ewing) was in the 1990 first round of the playoffs. 



> You say "clinging." I say "telling." We could do "what if's" all day. What if Bill Bradley hits that shot on the baseline 15 feet away vs. Washington in 70-71? My Knicks did a number on the Bucks that year, and I firmly believe we'd have beaten them. - Matchups. Then KAJ doesn't win and Oscar never wins a title. My Knicks win 3 titles in 4 years. How would History look upon them if Bradley hit the jumper and how would Oscar be looked at? What if Memphis wasn't in Lakers pocket and Kobe never got Gasol?


I'm not talking about "what if's". This all started with you saying you couldn't consider KAJ as GOAT material due, essencially, to the 1980-81 playoffs loss against the Rockets.
i tried to counter with (i) what actually happened that series (ii) it was one playoff season in 18 career playoff series (iii) other greats have had subpar playoff series (iv) upsets happen.



> Secondly, I've heard how KAJ's teammates let him down. Yet what happened in game 1? They lost 111 to 107. Malone had 38. Jabbar had 21. KAJ got whipped. Not just beat. And I question after game 1, or maybe during, if the Lakers defense had to change allowing Old Man Murphy etc prime opportunities.


They "let him down" because guys like Silk and Magic shot like crap thorough the whole series.
Yeah, Mo beat KAJ badly in the first game. And KAJ beat Mo in the 3rd



> I've put together a top 20/21 list on another thread. Other sites I have done it for years. Pippen isn't on. IMO Pippen had the great fortune of playing with Jordan. The year MJ retired, it was Pippen's prime year. And he already won titles. He didn't feel pressure after he won like Ewing or Malone that never did. Look how he melted down because he didn't get the ball on last shot vs. Knicks. What would he be like if he never won and no MJ? IMO Jordan made Pippen become the stud (Pippen is a stud) he wound up to be.


I agree Pippen is arguably NOT a Top-20 All-time player. But he didn't have to be. All it was needed was for him to be one of the best (if not the best) SF of his prime. Wich he was. Therefore the Bulls were playing with the best SG and best SF in the league.
And about lists: times a great player (yeah, i know teams win championships, not individuals, but just bear with me for a second) has won the championship WITHOUT having another All-Nba player alonside him (since 1979-1980):
Kareem: 1;
Magic: 3;
Larry: 2;
Jordan: 1;
Hakeem: 2;
Duncan: 4;
Wade: 1;
Dirk: 1.



> That's what GOAT's do. They make players better. That's why even Magic said after he retired; "Jordan is GOAT."


Magic never said that! 

After all, young grasshopper, we are not in disagreement: none of us claim KAJ is GOAT (NBA career only). Good exercize, nonetheless. Props


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

e-monk said:


> so then what's your point? that Mike got to the line a lot and you're acknowledging he was the beneficiary of favoritism? I think that might be counter productive to your argument don't you? I mean if you think that teams like the Pistons or the Knicks got away with a lot in the 90s you would have loved the 70s


Not much going on on these threads and I got some time. As long as we stay away from Jabbar. My value of a GOAT is different than others just as yours is. Not like my opinion of Jordan GOAT is a big minority though. 

Anyhow my point has been superstars not just Jordan get away calls. You seemed to only pick on Jordan even though I clearly referenced "superstars." So if I reference "superstars" how is that counter productive for Jordan when I speak in general terms? Jordan was an aggressive player like an agressive boxer like an agressive offensive rebounder that gets away pushing off or big guy for lowering his shoulder to displace/get space before he takes a shot. I give Jordan credit for getting away with walks. If your game allows you an advantage- more power to you. 

I saw the 70's. The 90's of Pistons and Knicks were much dirtier. Guys overall are stronger/quicker/faster. You can counter with a few players like Wilt etc. But overall you can't. Very hard to catch what they are doing with their athelticism/power and speed. Nowadays they don't let you use the forearm as much but crafty superstars ca get away with it. What my Knicks would do the Bulls sometimes was almost criminal. Though at the time I hated the Bulls so much . . . 

I even see now LeBron bump Tony Parker. LeBron is 6'8 240. He sticks out his forearm just a bit and makes contact with a small guy like Parker it's an advantage. It can be a foul. Refs aren't going to call those tic-tacs often on LeBron. More power to him.


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