# isaiah's last chance?



## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

should this be isaiah's last year if we arent in the playoffs next spring? i think we got way too caught up with how bad the layden era was, and we dont realize that with isaiah, we arent much better if at all.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

It all depends on who is coaching this team next season. If he can land a big namer he might buy himself some more time.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

it depends on his approach. if he trades the expiring contracts for longer ones, and we dont make the playoffs, then can him. if he just lets the team suck, and let contracts expire ill still give him a chance


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

he has come to the fork in the road and this is the year he has to choose one path....

If he somehow manages to move Penny and/or TT for long term contracts he must go deep in to the playoffs....and i dont mean a 4 game sweep(loss)

If he chooses the path of rebuild thru the draft and 2007 free agency,he deserves a pass.....Part of that process is hiring a solid coach with a system,drafting the best talent available,possibly lettting TT and Penny walk, the big decision to move marbury for an expiring contract/picks and going after Kwame....
I have no problem with Zeke realising his initial plan isnt going to work and making the necessary adjustments..In fact I think that is an important quality for a leader to have.... 

But this is the year he must choose a clear path and stick with it...


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

the thing is nothing in isaiahs recent past with the knicks leads me to believe he's interested in building through the draft. he just wants to keep trading until he thinks he's got something. we have to have roster space to build through the draft.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I think its a bit different this time as he is either going to succeed or flop in the most visable arena in basketball...

Also,he has gone down the trade expiring contracts and all it has landed him is two point guards who really dont complement one another....

Above all he is very close to clearing major cap space especially if he can move marbury for a player with a 2 year deal..That would rid us of every contract over 10 million by 2007..TT,Penny,H20 and marbury would be history,and with an assist from Nike King james could be the future..

Until then,if we can sign Kwame for the MLE,draft Greene and get someone like Z for years we would have a competitive lineup,while still building...To me its the only way to go


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## Keith Closs (May 13, 2003)

isiahs trading those expiring contracts for bigger contracts in return like he did with steph and crawford..

the owner does not care about the long term future of the knicks he will try to get to the playoffs at any cost even if it means mortaging any future or cap space..


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I really dont think Zeke is going to trade expiring contracts for long term deals...if he does,its gonna be for a big....

any names come to mind???


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

well the only guys we can realistically deal are hardaway and/or tim thomas. and who is gonna take them that will give up a franchise big man? the only guy i can think of is randolph. and he isnt a franchise big man.


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## Keith Closs (May 13, 2003)

Debt Collector said:


> well the only guys we can realistically deal are hardaway and/or tim thomas. and who is gonna take them that will give up a franchise big man? the only guy i can think of is randolph. and he isnt a franchise big man.


wh wouldnt isiah do soemthing like that it would stay consistent with what hes done so far plus he can use the excuse that randolph is young..

i just dont see the owner letting isiah have a 3 or 4 year plan..i think the owner wants to make the playoffs next year at any cost to sell lhose extra seats and make money and isiah knows that..

i hope im wrong..


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

nah i hear you keith...

i just think that if we use our high draft pick wisely and keep the guys we have now, we might be better off making a deadline deal, especially if they gell. it depends as well on who is coaching this team.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I think if the prize is lebron,while staying competitive,Dolan is onboard...

The key is you have to free up cap space and get a large assist from Nike...

And freeing up cap space means moving marbury...hes the only 10 mill contract that is on the books past H20...

Gamble on Kwame,play Ariza,start JC,draft green or taft and get a real coach


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*LJ is probably not realistic..*

'Melo is more realistic given he was originally from NY and he still is going to be a franchise player. Everything I've read about James behavior and attitude out of the spotlight concerns me. 'Melo is what he is....he will mature. I am also intrigues with the possible availability of Darko. I don't see him getting serious burn unless somebody goes down and he has said he will demand a trade if he doesn't get some serios PT.


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## Keith Closs (May 13, 2003)

*Re: LJ is probably not realistic..*



alphadog said:


> 'Melo is more realistic given he was originally from NY and he still is going to be a franchise player. Everything I've read about James behavior and attitude out of the spotlight concerns me. 'Melo is what he is....he will mature. I am also intrigues with the possible availability of Darko. I don't see him getting serious burn unless somebody goes down and he has said he will demand a trade if he doesn't get some serios PT.


i think a player like darko or kwame coming to the knicks and somehow developing is the only way the knicks could possibly get back to there 90's sucess soemwhat quickly without totally rebuilding..

usually in the nba u have a window and if u miss that window without a title i.e. the knicks jazz blazers the way the nba is constructed it takes along time to get back there..

the only team that made a quick transition without having to totally rebuild and go through tons of losing years was the pacers because of good drafting i.e. aretest and getting jermaine oneal who did ntohinh wit the blazers but developed with the pacers..


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> the only team that made a quick transition without having to totally rebuild and go through tons of losing years was the pacers because of good drafting i.e. aretest and getting jermaine oneal who did ntohinh wit the blazers but developed with the pacers


how would you view the Suns??They stunk last year,paid up for Nash,signed Q,moved Amare to center, Matrix to PF,and most importantly believed in Dantonis system..That was a phenomenal turnaround...

I cant emphasis how important it is to have a coach with a vision,a system and the right players to operate in that system...

To me,that is our biggest problem...our team as it is assembled makes no sense...


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## Keith Closs (May 13, 2003)

truth said:


> how would you view the Suns??They stunk last year,paid up for Nash,signed Q,moved Amare to center, Matrix to PF,and most importantly believed in Dantonis system..That was a phenomenal turnaround...
> 
> I cant emphasis how important it is to have a coach with a vision,a system and the right players to operate in that system...
> 
> To me,that is our biggest problem...our team as it is assembled makes no sense...


 that true but talking about the teams that had suces for a decade and were perennial title contenders every year who at the end of there run have to rebuild and get bad again before they can get good like the jazz blazers and knicks even though the knicks have been reluctant too rebuild..

pacers were the only team that at the end of there run with the liked of old players like the davises smits millers etc.. didnt have to totally rebuild like the other teams and have some bad years they got good again right away with some good decisions..


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

the most important thing is having a plan. i dont know if isaiah has a plan. his track record in NY seems to indicate that he doesnt. like he only wants to do well enoug to save his job. knicks fans deserve better.


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## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

I think IT is building for the future. He has two 1st rd picks this year and two next year. I think whatever he does, the first thing is to make this team competitive now while stockpiling talent for the future. I can see what he is trying to accomplish. I''m just surprised of how small a window people are giving him to accomplish his goals...heck Scott Layden had 4 whole years to ruin this team and people actually expect his mess to cleaned up yesterday. IT has only been on the job 16 months and I think he has bought much excitement back to the franchise. I've always paid attention to the offseason, but this year I can't wait until October to see a WHOLE NEW Knick team assembled. I really do think that this team will be competitive. A new found emphasis on defense stemming from the head coach (whoever he is), and a new offensive system emphasizing ball movement. Believe me, this team will be taller and more athletic team than any Knick team we've ever seen.


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## Keith Closs (May 13, 2003)

Tapseer said:


> I think IT is building for the future. He has two 1st rd picks this year and two next year. I think whatever he does, the first thing is to make this team competitive now while stockpiling talent for the future. I can see what he is trying to accomplish. I''m just surprised of how small a window people are giving him to accomplish his goals...heck Scott Layden had 4 whole years to ruin this team and people actually expect his mess to cleaned up yesterday. IT has only been on the job 16 months and I think he has bought much excitement back to the franchise. I've always paid attention to the offseason, but this year I can't wait until October to see a WHOLE NEW Knick team assembled. I really do think that this team will be competitive. A new found emphasis on defense stemming from the head coach (whoever he is), and a new offensive system emphasizing ball movement. Believe me, this team will be taller and more athletic team than any Knick team we've ever seen.


u seem pretty confident allot of changes will be made on a team with not much flexibility to move any of the players..


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

if you really believe Zeke is building towards the future,Marbury will be traded..No none in their right mind would consider marbury a franchise player..

Get all the mega contracts off the books by 2007,and be a player in free agency,the prize bein lebron..unless you like the thought of paying a 30 y.o+Starbury, with decreaing athletic ability a ton of money..


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## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

Marbury might not be a franchise player, but he is still very good. Also, as far as flexibility goes; you have two expiring conracts and a glut of PF's most of whom have value and manageable contracts. Another thing I like to add is if you are just biding your time until Lebron James is available, who is going to play with him when he finally gets here. Take advantage of this year's draft and next year's. Patience, give IT a moment.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Me personally i dont care , but zeke thomas has been running around basically putting his rep on the line about having 2 ending deals , draft picks to make some big deals.

thats why he traded for malik and mo to up the talent base and aquire picks ....to make deals surrounding TT and penny.

I think only penny should have to go , but Isiah thomas has boxed himself in a corner that if Timmy is on the roster this time next year , the knicks have to be so much better, by way of his deals or he's failed.

If TT plays a whole year avg. 16 points 5-6 boards shooting 45% fg and 40 from 3 , then at least offensively he is a perfect fit for marbury, because he is a moderate post up threat who can really hit 3's....but the small forward spot is Ariza's past next year(he almost took his spot this past winter anyway) so having him really doesn't matter.

Penny is gone , and he should be , he quit on the team and his ending deal should bring in something really good, especially with the 2 extra 1st rounders.

I think they are just filling their holes from a big jump ...just a jumpshooter and a real big man...they have everything else , depth , experience , a legitamite closer when he has a team around him(marbury).

there are teams out there who have big men to spare(wizards, celtics,Pacers to name a few) the knicks just have to aquire one of them , shooting guard is a smaller matter, if ariza can shoot 3's like he did the last couple of games of the season...not lights out , just well enough to convert on open looks, if not a shooter is still easier to get than a big man around the league.

Thomas cant start next season without a healthy true 2 guard or a center on the roster , not named bruno. In that sense this is his last chance because once the media gets into a guy like they did layden , basically there is nothing you can do that will be good enough.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Guys,I like what Zeke has done so far.I think marbury is a top 4 "point" guard,though I dont really like the way he runs the offense.And he isnt really a leader and doesnt have the respect of his teamates.It appears they tolerate him....Just my 2 cents...


We will soon find out what Zekes vision is by the players he drafts,the trades he goes for, and what he does with the contracts of TT and Penny.I for one do not want to let those contracts go for a long term contract with a bad rep and attitude..And at all costs,no players with knee injuries..


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I have to disagree with the notion that we just need to plug a couple of holes to be good. Their is a popular notion that if we can just get a PF who can dunk and a center who can block shots we're, like, there. Oh and maybe a better spot up shooter too. Well first of all that's a lot of holes, all that really says is that we have a PG and a SF and a bench (which lacks a BU PG). 

My feeling is that unless 2 of those "fillers" are bonafide studs I could care less about them. I'm just really disinterested in stop gap hole fillers so that we can save face and make the playoffs. It's almost universally aknowleged that Marbury is not a franchise caliber player, so why are we dikking around like he is. What are we going to do to address our real problem, which is that we don't have a legitimate difference maker?

Getting a bigman stud requires stinking a few more years so as to shed payroll and mine the draft I'm all for it. I'd rather plummet to the depths of the abyss for a shot at a couple of studs than be mediocre for a decade. People talk about how long it takes to rebuild properly, but Kiki has shown us that good management can make a competitor in 4 years (and they are still under the cap as we speak). Meanwhile we've spent the same 4 years running away from a rebuild and we're hardly better to show for it.

Sure a pinch of this and a dash of that will get us to the 7th or 8th seed. We'll be able to play with teams like Philly and Boston. But so what? I don't want to get better, I want the quantum leaps. People say give Zeke time. I've got all the time in the world for a method I believe in, but endless horizontal moves, and the continued trading of payroll relief for reclamation projects is gonna get old fast.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Getting a bigman stud requires stinking a few more years so as to shed payroll and mine the draft I'm all for it


I agree and i somewhat agree...After watching Fratello,Karl,Dantoni,nate Macmillan and then our teams coaching,its clear we are leaderless,systemless and boredering on clueless.That is our utmost priority.

There are some interesting situations that with a little luck could turn the ship around..Darko and Kwame...I would guess that they both can be had..Darko is more of a mystery,but its pretty obvious he would give his left nut to get out of there...Detroit doesnt need our PF's,they are already all world..However,Ariza or JC and the #30 may be appealing...

With a little luck Kwame or Darko could be another J Oneal story.....

We desparately need a coach..scrath that...a quality coach....I personally do not like marbury,but recognise his talent..KT is a very solid PF...JC???The jury is out..I am very high on Ariza...

The pieces are there..We just need someone to assemble it....


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## Keith Closs (May 13, 2003)

son of oakley said:


> I have to disagree with the notion that we just need to plug a couple of holes to be good. Their is a popular notion that if we can just get a PF who can dunk and a center who can block shots we're, like, there. Oh and maybe a better spot up shooter too. Well first of all that's a lot of holes, all that really says is that we have a PG and a SF and a bench (which lacks a BU PG).
> 
> My feeling is that unless 2 of those "fillers" are bonafide studs I could care less about them. I'm just really disinterested in stop gap hole fillers so that we can save face and make the playoffs. It's almost universally aknowleged that Marbury is not a franchise caliber player, so why are we dikking around like he is. What are we going to do to address our real problem, which is that we don't have a legitimate difference maker?
> 
> ...



i dont think ownership will alow isiah to rebuild because he cares more about selling out the garden then making the knicks title contenders..

he is gonna want isiah to do anyhtign in his power to make the knicks perennial borderline playoff caliber team even if that measn being a 7 or 8 seed for the next 5 years which the knicks seem to be reaching for..

those expirign cotnracts will be used to get soemwhat talented but flawed players from othre teams that may push the knicks into the 7 or 8 seed but no more..


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

son of oakley said:


> I have to disagree with the notion that we just need to plug a couple of holes to be good. Their is a popular notion that if we can just get a PF who can dunk and a center who can block shots we're, like, there. Oh and maybe a better spot up shooter too. Well first of all that's a lot of holes, all that really says is that we have a PG and a SF and a bench (which lacks a BU PG).
> 
> My feeling is that unless 2 of those "fillers" are bonafide studs I could care less about them. I'm just really disinterested in stop gap hole fillers so that we can save face and make the playoffs. It's almost universally aknowleged that Marbury is not a franchise caliber player, so why are we dikking around like he is. What are we going to do to address our real problem, which is that we don't have a legitimate difference maker?
> 
> ...


i think its could be a cycle .

the knicks have big ending deals not just this season , but the next year and the year after that . and those deal dont include players the team is apparently building around(marbury Crawford,sweetney and ariza ) everyone else is essentially trading fodder anyway. 

do the knicks have a star among stars ...no but marbury in the right situation can be close.

the mavericks for instance continually reshuffle around fringe pieces into better players , as long as they are getting better players for their trouble.

they let the league mvp go for nothing and improved 6 games because of other moves, i think the knicks are starting to go on a similar track, in fact i think they already started last trade deadline .

malik rose 2 first rounders and mo taylor is alot better in terms of talent than what they sent away ...even if it did deal away the only semblance of centers on the roster, nazr and vin baker...plus moochie.

also son of oakley the best stat i know of to determine how good an offense is ..the offensive efficiency stat, which basically tells how much a team scores per possesion. , by comparison in order the top 5 were, 1 pho. 2. mia. 3.sea. 4.sac. 5.dall., the knicks finished 16th(scoring 103 per 100 pessesions), between houston and det. the difference being in teams is that detriot and houston are excellent defensive teams(finishing 3rd and 4th in def. eff.) while the knicks are among the worst in the nba (giving up 106 per 100 per possesion, finishing 26)


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

disgruntledKNICKfan said:


> do the knicks have a star among stars ...no but marbury in the right situation can be close.
> 
> the mavericks for instance continually reshuffle around fringe pieces into better players , as long as they are getting better players for their trouble.


I agree that is Isiah's approach, and I agree isiah will improve the Knicks, what I question is our ceiling.

And the difference with Dallas is they have their franchise bigman in Dirk, and we don't have one. When you have your stars in place the rest are easy to shuffle. It's the ability to get premium stars that concerns me. Isiah's approach is primarily trade based, but teams typically hold onto the best players. I understand there are exceptions to the rule, but if the strategy is geared toward pulling off a mega-trade for T-Mac, or to trade KT for Jermaine O'Neal, I believe it's a low percentage of success strategy. I just think our odds would be better thru the draft and under the cap free agency.



> also son of oakley the best stat i know of to determine how good an offense is ..the offensive efficiency stat, which basically tells how much a team scores per possesion. , by comparison in order the top 5 were, 1 pho. 2. mia. 3.sea. 4.sac. 5.dall., the knicks finished 16th(scoring 103 per 100 pessesions), between houston and det. the difference being in teams is that detriot and houston are excellent defensive teams(finishing 3rd and 4th in def. eff.) while the knicks are among the worst in the nba (giving up 106 per 100 per possesion, finishing 26)


I'm not terribly familiar with the offensive efficiency stat. Where can I see the ranking and a description of it's elements? If it really boils down to how much a team scores per possession, you have to keep in mind that we are at a disadvantage out of the gate, as Marbury rarely pushes tempo. So even though we have a mediocre efficiency per possession, I'd venture that's compounded by having fewer possessions per game than up-tempo teams.

And yes, our D sucks. And while Kurt is our only starter who plays any, he's at the top of most lists of players to be traded first.


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## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

Believe me IT has vision. TT's contract becomes more desireable the closer we move to next season's trading deadline. If, we're not happy with him next season (being that IT couldn't trade him over the summer) we can always trade him. We're not as bad as me people make it out to be. We're going to be all right next season.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

Tapseer said:


> Believe me IT has vision. TT's contract becomes more desireable the closer we move to next season's trading deadline. If, we're not happy with him next season (being that IT couldn't trade him over the summer) we can always trade him. We're not as bad as me people make it out to be. We're going to be all right next season.



very good and rational post.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

son of oakley said:


> I'm not terribly familiar with the offensive efficiency stat. Where can I see the ranking and a description of it's elements? If it really boils down to how much a team scores per possession, you have to keep in mind that we are at a disadvantage out of the gate, as Marbury rarely pushes tempo. So even though we have a mediocre efficiency per possession, I'd venture that's compounded by having fewer possessions per game than up-tempo teams.
> 
> And yes, our D sucks. And while Kurt is our only starter who plays any, he's at the top of most lists of players to be traded first.


offense eff.

http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/teamseasonsearch.htm

def. eff.

http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/teamseasonsearch.htm

i couldn't find anything explaining it on the site 

to me slow pace , fast pace, it doesn't matter as long as its enjoyable basketball to watch ... the nuggets of 1990 or so were just a horrible team to watch , but they played that loyola maramount(sp?) offense and ran it up and down the court.

both teams will still get the same # of possesions , more assists mean nothing if they dont score more points than the other team by either outgunning them or outdefending them, a team identity would be very useful, they actually on offense play like most defensive teams with a ball control mentality, but then dont buckle down on defense.


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## nyk4ever (May 13, 2005)

I think Isiah should have 2 1/2 more seasons to do his job. He thought that if he took underachieving athletes(t.thomas, n.mohammed) and gave them a change of pace he could have a contender.He gambled on Nazr committing less fouls,H2O's knees holding up, and Tiny Tim reclaimming the mojo that he never had in the first place, and lost. He seems like he's willing to rebuild. Let's see what he can do. He has a keen eye for talent. After all he drafted rookie of the year Damon Stodamire, Marcus Camby, and T-Mac. And he would've taken KG if he was still on board 11 years ago. If Ariza had stayed in school, he could've been a lottery pick. Let's see what he fetches with his other 6 draft picks.


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## Cager (Jun 13, 2002)

nyk4ever said:


> I think Isiah should have 2 1/2 more seasons to do his job. He thought that if he took underachieving athletes(t.thomas, n.mohammed) and gave them a change of pace he could have a contender.He gambled on Nazr committing less fouls,H2O's knees holding up, and Tiny Tim reclaimming the mojo that he never had in the first place, and lost. He seems like he's willing to rebuild. Let's see what he can do. He has a keen eye for talent. After all he drafted rookie of the year Damon Stodamire, Marcus Camby, and T-Mac. And he would've taken KG if he was still on board 11 years ago. If Ariza had stayed in school, he could've been a lottery pick. Let's see what he fetches with his other 6 draft picks.


Where has Isiah been successful besides playing basketball ?? Why would anybody in their right mind extend Kurt Thomas so that he is no longer tradeable. Why would anybody waste the expiring contract s to bring in a Jamal Crawford ? The Knicks are actually in worse shape than when he started because there are less options than when Isiah started. Who brought in Stephon anyway ? One more year is more than generous for Isiah.


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