# Game Thread: Blazers Vs Sacramento



## Blazerfan024 (Aug 15, 2003)

HERE IT IS 


Does there look like there are more kings fans then Blazers at the game...


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

Oh there are plenty King fans..


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

I know it's not Blazers but it's always pleasant news.
Lakers down by 11 with minutes to go..



Denver up by 8 in the 3rd quarter.

Blazers look very lively,lots of passing..
too early to get a bead on the game yet.


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## Backboard Cam (Apr 29, 2003)

How do they get seats in the 100 level? I thought the lower tier was all corporate and season tickets. What self-respecting Blazers fan would sell their seat to a Kings fan?


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

Miles get so many second chance points !!

Very good defense tonight !!

Stoudamire 6 for 10


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

Yeah backboard,they are down front,but it sounds like all over.


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## Backboard Cam (Apr 29, 2003)

Yeah, I'm watching the game.


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

Now this is a fun game !!

everybody moving.

Theo and Ruben are just fantastic tonight


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## loyalty4life (Sep 17, 2002)

*Line of the night -- Courtesy of Wheels!*

Hilarious stuff! Theo blocks a shot during the second quarter, falls down to the floor. Then Brad Miller goes up for the dunk while Theo is just getting back up. Theo goes for the block but was too late. 

Wheels: "Now Miller is staring down Theo! What type of crap is that!!"

Wheels has such a passion for the game!


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

I adore him.


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## Backboard Cam (Apr 29, 2003)

I hate to say this, but I always mute the tv when Schonz comes on. He was great in the day, but I get embarrased for him these days. He was interviewing a local female hoops player, and he said something like she was one of the best players around, "woman-wise." Woman-wise? 

He is an old guy, and he isn't as quick as he used to be. He isn't a person I want to hear talk about basketball anymore. 

Still, he is a Blazers legend, and I do have respect for his history.


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

oh god love him,he won't here that much longer. 
You have to have the Schonz involved somewhere.

Schonz and the great Chick Hearn gave us so many great years.

I agree tho,it was a bit ackward.


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

Rahim looks good tonight,Miles is like Spiderman.

He looks like a spider the way he weaves around.


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

This is a dream game,hope most of you are seeing this !


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## Backboard Cam (Apr 29, 2003)

BLOCK BLOCK BLOCK BLOCK!!


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

I wish I could be watching it, but Im over here in San Diego. It's too bad they likely won't make the playoffs, I wish they would cuz I dont want to see the streak end but I just don't know.


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

Typical Kings-Blazers. We own the Kings. This one is easier than most cuz Webber is back.


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## BlazerBeav (Jul 31, 2003)

I turned the game on just as ZR stole the ball from Webber, and have been pleased with the effort ever since. I haven't caught many games since the big trade, but I really like the defensive precense Theo brings to the game. I also like Miles agility and energy. THIS kind of action is the type that will fill the Garden once again.


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

Damon back to back turnovers


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

Own them??
Gosh I hate to hear any fan say that.
It usually comes back to bite the team.

I have never seen a team win anything that says that before the playoffs by the way.
And Sac is out of their minds in the playoffs.

It is just sooo different in the postseason.

But no doubt they look good tonight !!


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

The Blazers have a year's worth of energy tonight.

windmill dunk after dunk by Miles!!
I love this guy !!

Miles has to be one of the biggest pickups by the Blazers
in years !!
This guy is something else.

How on earth he got buried on the bench by the Cavs is beyond me.


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## Backboard Cam (Apr 29, 2003)

Ratliff is three blocks away from a triple-double and the franchise blocks record. :yes: :yes: :yes:


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## QRICH (Feb 2, 2004)

This team is so much fun to watch when they bring their A game!!! 11 dunks in the game!!


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

Theo is out of his mind tonight:yes:


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## loyalty4life (Sep 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> I adore him.


Wheels is too much fun to listen to!!!  



BOOOOOM CHAKA-LAKA!!!


OHHHHH, THAT WAS NAAAASTY!!!

:laugh:


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

Kings within 6..


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## loyalty4life (Sep 17, 2002)

My recommendation to anyone in Oregon watching the game: Mute the TV and turn on the radio while watching the game. It's Wheels at his finest!

(Nothing against Snapper and MB... They do a good job too!)


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## Webster's Dictionary (Feb 26, 2004)

Win or lose this game, if we continue to play team basketball, we will make the playoffs, hands down.


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## BlazerBeav (Jul 31, 2003)

Has anyone in the history of the NBA aged more quickly than Dale Davis? He was servicable at the beginning of the season, but now his play is just atrocious.

/end Bill Walton voice.


CHEEKS: STICK WITH THE HOT LINEUP!


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## Backboard Cam (Apr 29, 2003)

I really like Wheels, but I can't stand the delay. Wheels screams while the shot is still in the air, since the tv is seconds behind.


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

Directv is behind but comcast is perfect..
I have two tv's with sound down on the delay one.


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

Ruben is keeping the Blazers in this game.


Kings have just escalated their game so high !!


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

Cheeks never should have had Miles sit so long.

Zach just doesn't play any D:no:

You basketball players out there..
do you think they can school him all summer on that??

Is that teachable or is it just natural??

where are the shooters for Portland??


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

anderson 2 for 11

Blazers shooting 4 for 16 in the quarter

theo is our superstar !!!!!!!!!

2 point lead with 49 seconds

This would have been a blow out with better shooting by Blazers.

they did it !!!!!!!!


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

Zach doesn't play D?

His two steals were CRITICAL.


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## Blazerfan024 (Aug 15, 2003)

I HAVE TO SAY IT!!!



RIP CITY!! 




Sorry this win FELT good!


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

8 blocked shots by theo

I will tell you something tho.
This game was almost lost twice in the closing minute.

A 3 pointer missed and a putback at the end just missed the clock.


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

Two bobbled balls that he stole to me don't indicate his D.

They were pretty much going right around him to score.
He seems slow on D..
literally slow.

You don't see that??


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

Nice game !!

The Blazers are the only team to beat them 3 times.
ooh,wish this was the playoff stat.

Sac really played their guts out down the stretch.
Portland really faltered on shooting.

But D won the game !!


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

Jackie- didn't you earlier say that we would lose in the playoffs cuz we struggle against the kinds of teams we would play?

Well, we're 5-2 against the Kings and Wolves combined!

Bring it on!!


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## loyalty4life (Sep 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Backboard Cam</b>!
> I really like Wheels, but I can't stand the delay. Wheels screams while the shot is still in the air, since the tv is seconds behind.


Well, when you're watching the game locally, the radio and TV are synchronized PERFECTLY.


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## Samuel (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Loyalty4Life</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, when you're watching the game locally, the radio and TV are synchronized PERFECTLY.


there's no way to watch sunday's game


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

"Jackie- didn't you earlier say that we would lose in the playoffs cuz we struggle against the kinds of teams we would play?"

Yup..that's what I said.

Tonight for example.
Down the stretch Kings got 3 pointers,hard shots,and Portland's
13 point lead=poof.

Thank god Theo had a good game..
because without D tonight,this game would have been lost.
No shooting in the 4th.

As I am typing this the guy on 910 just said the exact thing i said.

"poor offensive night for Portland"

"but good D"

I have watched so much basketball,I assume you have??
The playoffs are just so different.

I myself don't think that once the playoffs start the regular season means grass as to how many times you beat them.

Take the Lakers tonight..
they looked horrible.
But for 3 years they haven't looked horrible in the playoffs.

Portland needs to prove themselves to me.

This was a wonderful win,but lets see it consistantly.

Sac will beat the Blazers with their shooting.
Portland will give them fits with their D.
But I still think Sac will outgun them in the postseason.
I had said earlier in the thread..
wow,with good shooters tonight it would be a blowout.

Gosh Nathan do you really have the need to dispute every post??


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

Now you change your tune.

Before, you were saying we couldn't beat the good teams in the playoffs cuz we couldn't beat them in the reg season.

NOW, you're saying that the reg season doesn't matter.

Make up your mind!!!

As for the Lakers, they looked pretty horrible to me last year. They played ONE must win game last year. And it was at Staples. They lost by 28. No heart.

You don't have dispute every post either, Jackie.

Why do you insist that the Blazers can't accomplish anything while you continue to praise the Grizzlies?

The Blazers can win the championship THIS YEAR cuz there are no dominant teams in the NBA. You just saw the team with the best record tonight and we showed that with a little hustle, they are an easy win. If DA had an average shooting game and Cook played smart, we would have won by 20.

There are no scary teams in the NBA. Esp to the Blazers.

We're 3-1 vs the Kings, 2-1 vs Wolves, 1-0 vs Pacers, 2-0 vs Nets.

Spurs playing without Robinson (or Duncan lately), Lakers have too many distractions.

There is no big bad wolf. We are 8-2 vs the current division leaders.

I bet we win in Minnesota on Sunday too.


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

Nathan.
You can't be serious..
I have been saying the same thing all year...
I have never changed from the opening tip off.
This is not a championship team.

Maybe a couple dead eye shooter..who knows.

How long have you been watching basketball??

You twist my posts to suit your comments.

and to give you a goodnight kiss.. 




How bout those Grizz ????.. seven in a row.


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## loyalty4life (Sep 17, 2002)

Here's a picture of Theo blocking C-Web, courtesy of *ahem* another Blazer community:










Theo is too much fun to watch!


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

Great picture.

That deserves a bump.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

Our defense is rediculous, holding the Wolves to 79 and the Kings to 81...crazy crazy,. It baffles the mind how in the hell scouts for Dallas,etc did not pick up on Theo and make a trade for him. Defensive player of the year, hands down! He makes us soo much better,and DMiles and RUben play solid peremiter D.....DMiles was out of his mind on some of those dunks... I love watching this team play..when they just PLAY!


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## RW#30 (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> 
> How long have you been watching basketball??
> ]


You can be serious? Do you have to point this out in everyone of your post?

I hate agree with Speed but he is right. 

Just got back from the game and Zbo played a great game. Against Webber and Miller he played as good of a D as you can aspect. 
As for our record against playoff teams, I think our record speak for it self. Those darn Clippers/GS/Den games bug the heck out of me. 

Theo was amazing. His 2nd block on CW was the best I've seen. After that he stayed out of the paint. I love his game.


Theo for President 

We really missed Wes Person tonight. We need a SG so bad. It would make SAR's and Zbo's job so much easier. DA played a good all around game but his shooting was awful.

I thought SAR played quite well. He had9 points and 2 critical offensive rebounds. I feel for the guy. He sacrifices so much for the team. He was a great pick up. With training camp next year and with the change is we'll make (if he is part of the future) he will be a crucial part of this team.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RW#30</b>!
> 
> 
> You can be serious? Do you have to point this out in everyone of your post?
> ...


Next year my friend,we will be lethal to deal with in 04-05...bring back wes ..and it will all fall into place.


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

I watch more Blazer ball than Jackie. I know this for a fact, cuz she watched the Grizz.

SAR did have two hugs offensive boards but he's still too timid when we give him the ball to score. He always seems so afraid he'll mess up, so he does.

Our D was actually better with Sheed at center, MAS. We held the Kings to 32% shooting in their building and we held the red hot Grizz to 31% shooting in their building. We also held the Jazz to 34% in their building.

And I don't see how you can say that Theo is hands down the defensive player of the year when he doesn't get 7 boards a game, doesn't get many steals, and is pretty bad one-on-one post defender.

He is an excellent shotblocking specialist, but if you want to talk "Defensive Player of the Year," I don't see how Theo is even in the Top 3.

I got Ben Wallace, Ron Artest, and Andrei Kirilenko.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

Blocks are SO much more vitale then steals(gambling puts your team vunerable)..Theo's blocks help us so much, it is usually a basket saving block that leads to a fast break alley-OOP!


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: Line of the night -- Courtesy of Wheels!*



> Originally posted by <b>Loyalty4Life</b>!
> Wheels: "Now Miller is staring down Theo! What type of crap is that!!"
> 
> Wheels has such a passion for the game!


holy mother of pearl..did wheels really say that??


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

Sorry, MAS-

Going for blocks can leave you just as vulnerable. People can fake you in the air and dunk on your or pass off for an easy dunk. PLUS, shotblockers tend to send their opponents to the free throw line a lot, thus also putting themselves in foul trouble.

Theo doesn't rebound enough or guard anyone in the post one on one very well to be considered a Def Player of the Year.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

A steal is almost certainly more valuable than a blocked shot. Steals lead directly to a possession for your team, while blocked shots are often recoved by the offensive team.

Of course, when you get 8 of either one, it's pretty darn impressive.

Ed O.


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## loyalty4life (Sep 17, 2002)

*Re: Re: Line of the night -- Courtesy of Wheels!*



> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> 
> holy mother of pearl..did wheels really say that??


Mother of pearl?? :rofl: I haven't heard that expression since 7th grade! And the guy that said it was in my math class - he was an absolute crack up! Good stuff. 

And yes - Wheels did say that! I was speechless.... err... well if you don't count the laughing. :angel:


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

Exactly Ed.

Steals automatically send you to a fast break.

Blocks don't necessarily result in turnovers.

Well, that's what you said. lol

For instance, Theo got that one block, but Brad Miller still dunked on us anyway.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Exactly Ed.
> 
> Steals automatically send you to a fast break.
> ...


what about the shot that he stopped late in the game by Bibby? Or the several dunks/close shots by Webber he blocked? It makes players think twice about going into the lane, and generally take harder shots.

Harder shots = lower percentage. Lower percentage = more likely a loss.

I hope you aren't discounting his blocks due to the 1 time he didn't get a blocked shot. 

think about it this way, the 8 blocks is potentially 16 fewer points for the Kings.

It's silly to compare a steal as more valuable than a block, just as it's silly to suggest the opposite. Each is important, in their own special way. 

But considering that teams used to waltz in the lane against the Blazers, having a guy who blocks shots and therefore stop guys from waltzing in, is *IMPORTANT*.

I'll take a shot blocker over a guy who steals the ball 7 days a week, and twice on sunday. Both are important, but a block shot IS a missed field-goal, and intimidation.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

I disagree, Ed. I think that early in a game blocks are much more important. they force an opponent to be more tenative in driving to the basket. nobody is really intimidated early in a game by steals. otherwise Allen Iverson would be known as a great defensive player. 

late in a game steals have a greater importance than blocks. by then, the flow of the game has already been established and every possession becomes much more important. 

you're not likely to make a good low post player tentative in the fourth quarter by blocking him a couple of times, especially after he's established a couple of good quarters of shooting. you CAN make that guy a little more tentative in the first quarter though. 

ideally, you want the majority of your blocked shots to occur early in a game and the majority of your steals late in a game. rarely works out that way, though.


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

the bottom line is Theo is not the Def Player of the Year, I don't believe.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> the bottom line is Theo is not the Def Player of the Year, I don't believe.


I dont know who said he should be, but I agree. He shouldn't be. Nor should he be considered it. B Wallace does blocks, rebounds and steals. he's a cinch.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

whats one of the things we complain about Zach (and now SAR)?

His shot being *blocked*.

why? Because it's a missed point.


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

MAS said Theo was Def Player of the Year hands down.


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## RG (Jan 1, 2003)

Just as a steal can result in a _possible_ 2 points, a block saves 2. With this team, I'm glad to see an inside presence finally. I also think you'll get more steals when you have the threat of a shot blocker. It has a tendency to make guys force a bad pass rather than having their shot fed to them.


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

> think about it this way, the 8 blocks is potentially 16 fewer points for the Kings.


And how exactly does that differ from the effect of 8 steals?



> whats one of the things we complain about Zach (and now SAR)?
> 
> His shot being *blocked*.
> 
> why? Because it's a missed point.


We complain at least as much about his turnovers (in effect steals) ... which coincidentally hurt us in the missed points department just as much.

You can try different angles until you're blue in the face, but you'll eventually come back to the simple fact that a steal and a block have the same statistical effect. (There's no more guarantee a block saved 2 than did a steal. Dunks and layups are still missed from time to time.)

But back on topic, great win tonight. One of the most entertaining games I've seen in a couple years. Theo was an animal. You could see him thinking as he hawked the ball (no pun intended) on plays, getting into position and deciding whether to go after the shot. Darius complemented him extremely well, and Ruben did a good job chipping in as needed. Damon was strong throughout, but DA looked like he was trying to shoot the game away toward the end... Not a bad showing for Zach and SAR, but they remain pretty much an either/or. It's looking like Mo has given up on trying to work them into the game together. Only a couple minutes here and there, and mostly as a PF/C combo (which brings its own share of problems). Nice to see Ruben enthusiastically hugging Zach after the game. Too bad Ruben didn't see Omar's pass on the break... Our guys aren't used to unselfish play like that. I just hope they get accustomed to it before Omar picks up bad habits and stops passing the ball.

Dan


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Sorry, MAS-
> 
> Going for blocks can leave you just as vulnerable. People can fake you in the air and dunk on your or pass off for an easy dunk. PLUS, shotblockers tend to send their opponents to the free throw line a lot, thus also putting themselves in foul trouble.
> ...


No way,not even close. Blocks can be vunerable,but not hardley as much,going for a steal leaves your man on an island all by himself,at least on a block you have pretty close help side D. Theo's blocks mean more,that may sound "stupid" but they do.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>dkap</b>!
> 
> And how exactly does that differ from the effect of 8 steals?
> 
> ...


Theo's 8 blocks lead to so many easy fast break buckets,so he takes away 16 pts from teh kings and lets say gives us at least 8 points..thats about a 24 pt swing just because of the RATTLER!


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

And your point is??? Steals have the exact same statistical effect, all else being held equal.

Dan


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

I don't see any player getting 5+ steals a game on a regular basis,yet Theo gets that on Blocks,he is the DPOY....how could it not be...his Defense is so valueable to our team's success.


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

Fine, if you'd rather change the topic than answer the question...

If anything, that illustrates how much more difficult it is to get a steal than a block, which in a sense makes the steal a more valuable commodity.

I'm loving what Theo brings to the table, but his blocks are not that much ahead of Ben's, and his rebounding and man defense are not quite up to that standard. Ben is clearly a better defensive player.

Dan


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dkap</b>!
> 
> And how exactly does that differ from the effect of 8 steals?


easy. With a blocked shot, you change the players mentality of a shot. They don't drive the lane as much (generally an easier shot) and then take a tougher shot. Tougher shots mean you miss more shots (generally speaking). Missing more shots mean less chance to score rebounds.

A blocked shot can also save someone else defensivly. Say DA or Damon gets blown by. Their man used to be able to drive to the hoop because our C spot was either DD, or non existent. Now, they can't do that without having to first think about passing, or changing their shot.

Why was the team so much better with Sabonis in the middle? Because he was a mountain of a man who changed shots.



> You can try different angles until you're blue in the face, but you'll eventually come back to the simple fact that a steal and a block have the same statistical effect. (There's no more guarantee a block saved 2 than did a steal. Dunks and layups are still missed from time to time.)


True, I know they basically have the same stat, but I used the 8 fg's missed because the block shot was being downplayed. And just because layups and dunks are misse time to time, doesn't take away from the importance of a blocked shot/intimidation factor. 

Plus, I think it's safe to say that a steal doesn't turn into a made FG for the team that stole the ball more often then a blocked shot didn't cause a made FG to be missed.

It's easier to adjust to a steal (unless you're Qyntel Woods or Kevin Duckworth) than it is to a blocked shot.


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

Theo does NOT get 5+ on a regular basis. If he did, he'd be AVERAGING 5+. But he's not even averaging 4. That means, on some nights, he doesn't block many shots. And since he doesn't really rebound, or score, or guard anyone very well one on one, well..... there's not much there.

Theo had a GREAT game yesterday, no doubt. He is a shotblocking specialist who is helping this team win.

Also, in comparing steals- let's say it once again. STEALS always result in a change posession. BLOCKS don't. You can get three blocks on one play and the team still scores on that posession.

So, in general, 4 steals can be more helpful than 8 blocks.

Last night was a BIG exception in which almost all of Theo's blocks sent us out on the break. That is not always the case.

Steals ALWAYS hand you possession of the ball.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RG</b>!
> Just as a steal can result in a _possible_ 2 points, a block saves 2.


No. A steal definitely denies an opponent's opportunity at 2 points. A block MIGHT deny an opponent's opportunity at 2 points. There's still a chance that the shot would be missed. And when the shot is missed the other team occasionally gets the ball back.

A blocked shot basically causes a missed FG, while a steal causes a TO. The latter is simply more valuable on average than the former.

Now, I wouldn't argue that steals are *twice* as valuable as blocks, because defensive rebounding percentage is higher than 50%, which means that a blocked shot ends up about as "good" as a steal over half the time.



> With this team, I'm glad to see an inside presence finally. I also think you'll get more steals when you have the threat of a shot blocker. It has a tendency to make guys force a bad pass rather than having their shot fed to them.


I agree with all of this...

Ed O.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

it was a great, great game. especially if you happened to watch the Kings/Mavs game the other night. the Kings ran backdoor cut after backdoor cut that just destroyed the Mavs. Dallas looked like a patsy to Sactown's Globe Trotters. I kept waiting for Webber to yank down one of the ref's pants. 

say what you want about steals vs blocks, but it was Ratliff's ability to completely erase virtually every backdoor cut that was the huge difference maker in this game. without him, we lose by 20 just like Dallas did. 

if we can nab a top 10 guard over the summer for SAR or Randolph, this is going to be a damned fun team to watch next year.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

the scary thing about Sacramento is that Portland completely took them out of their offensive game, virtually elliminating cuts to the hoop and clogging the high post offense, and yet they still were a shot away from taking it to overtime and winning on the opponent's court. 

between Webber, Bibby, Peja and Christie they have so many lethal shooters who can bail them out when the offense has completely stalled. if thing go wrong and the passing falls apart for the night, they can STILL stay in games by playing Dallas-style one-on-one jumpshot offense. 

I really, really hope the Kings and Wolves face off in the WCF. they just symbolize everything that is fun about the game of basketball.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theWanker</b>!
> I disagree, Ed. I think that early in a game blocks are much more important. they force an opponent to be more tenative in driving to the basket. nobody is really intimidated early in a game by steals. otherwise Allen Iverson would be known as a great defensive player.


I hear what you're saying, Wank, but I don't think that the intimidation factor is really THAT big of a deal.

The Kings got 8 shots blocked by Theo last night. Why? Because they kept driving to the hoop. Does an intimidated team keep driving to the hoop?

"Intimidation" undoubtedly occurs occasionally when a player changes his shot, but a similar effect can be felt with double-clutched passes that result in turnovers when they know a player is excellent at playing the passing lanes.

I would be interested to know the effects of "intimidation"... maybe I'm underplaying it. It seems that someone could take team opponents FG%'s and, removing blocked shots as FGA's, see how their opponents shot with their remaining shot attempts... and whether it was much better than the league average. Maybe someday when I learn to stretch the days to 27+ hours I can look into that...

Ed O.


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

> Q: And how exactly does that differ from the effect of 8 steals?
> 
> A: easy. With a blocked shot, you change the players mentality of a shot.


That's just fine and dandy, but like MAS, it's a change of subject in lieu of answering the question... Here's what you originally wrote that I asked the question of:

"think about it this way, the 8 blocks is potentially 16 fewer points for the Kings."

Nothing there about the mental edge of shot blocking. If you want to argue that angle, you also have to consider what knifing into the passing lanes a few times does for tentative passing.



> Why was the team so much better with Sabonis in the middle? Because he was a mountain of a man who changed shots.


That's a stretch. Sabonis was big, but hardly a shot blocker. We were a much better team because of his passing, shooting, decent rebounding, and overall basketball intelligence. Shot blocking was right up there with mobility in terms of strengths of his game.



> True, I know they basically have the same stat, but I used the 8 fg's missed because the block shot was being downplayed.


Maybe others are downplaying them (I didn't really get that feeling), but not I. Very important aspect of the game, but no moreso than steals, in my opinion.



> I think it's safe to say that a steal doesn't turn into a made FG for the team that stole the ball more often then a blocked shot didn't cause a made FG to be missed.


Huh? That's a hard sentence to follow, but I believe you're comparing apples and oranges, so to speak. You're comparing blocks' effect on the opponent scoring to steals' effect on our guys scoring, whereas the real comparison should be two-fold:

1) saved basket: blocks' effect on the opponent scoring vs. steals effect on the opponent scoring (roughly the same)

2) made basket: blocks' effect on the our guys scoring on gained possession vs. steals effect on the our guys scoring on gained possession (roughly the same)

Dan


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

Wanker- Why do you want to see the Kings and Wolves in the WCF?

We own both of them. Don't you want to see US in the WCF? I thought we were pretty fun to watch last night.

The Wolves and Kings both failed to take down the defending champion Lakers despite having home court advantage. They're chokers. Webber missed a couple chances to basically win the game for the Kings last night. A wide open dunk and a jump shot wouldn't go down for him. Then, Christie iced it with his trademark choke.

I want to see the BLAZERS in the WCF. Now THAT would be fun. I really think we can get there too. Who is gonna stop us?


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dkap</b>!
> 
> That's just fine and dandy, but like MAS, it's a change of subject in lieu of answering the question... Here's what you originally wrote that I asked the question of:
> 
> ...


cept in the same post, and others, I mentioned how it changes how a team plays offensively. Infact, in my first post regarding blocked shots, I mention how it's nice having a guy who can block shots stopping guys from waltzing in the lane. 

And for the love of god, I never discounted steals! I just said I'd rather have a guy who block shots than gets steals. 


> That's a stretch. Sabonis was big, but hardly a shot blocker. We were a much better team because of his passing, shooting, decent rebounding, and overall basketball intelligence. Shot blocking was right up there with mobility in terms of strengths of his game.


ugh...what was one thing most players didn't do when sabonis was in the game? Drive the lane with no one there trying to stop them! Sabonis was HUGE. He was a mountain of a man! His size alone intimidated smaller players (and bigger players). 

man...schilly was right..


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> ugh...what was one thing most players didn't do when sabonis was in the game? Drive the lane with no one there trying to stop them! Sabonis was HUGE. He was a mountain of a man! His size alone intimidated smaller players (and bigger players).


I never saw much intimidation when I watched opponents play against Sabonis. Really, just about the only time I saw intimidation with Sabas was when he played Shaq (and it ran the wrong way for my liking).

Sabonis was big, and good, and a nice rebounder, and smart and excellent offensively. But an intimidating defender? I wouldn't say that was the case at all. He was not a physical player and he did not block shots. Compare his best shotblocking year (84 in 69 games) to a player like Mark Eaton, who had similar limited mobility (so he's a different type of shot blocer from, say, Ben Wallace or Theo) at a similar age nd that's clear as day:

Mark Eaton 1988-89 (age 32): 315 blocks in 2914 minutes (one block every 9.25 minutes)

Arvydas Sabonis 1996-97 (age 32): 84 blocks in 1762 minutes (one block every 20.98 minutes)

I guess it's POSSIBLE that Sabonis was so intimidating people just didn't drive the lane against him, but considering how Eaton was a known shotblocker, it doesn't seem the "Sabas effect" would reduce his blocked shots more than the "Eaton effect" would Mark's.

Ed O.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> I hear what you're saying, Wank, but I don't think that the intimidation factor is really THAT big of a deal.
> ...


Webber was certainly intimidated,once he went in and got his ish sent back,he was never near Theo and the paint for the rest of the game.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MAS RipCity</b>!
> 
> Webber was certainly intimidated,once he went in and got his ish sent back,he was never near Theo and the paint for the rest of the game.


Theo blocked three of Webber's shots; I don't know why the third one would be more intimidating than the first two, although I guess it's possible that it was.

He was out for about half of the 4th quarter... that is probably one reason he didn't take it to the basket. Further, he was hitting the jumper, and on a night where Webber seemed to be lolly-gagging it a bit (only 4 rebounds all night; none offensive) I wasn't surprised to see him take the easy way out.

Ed O.


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

> cept in the same post, and others, I mentioned how it changes how a team plays offensively.


As do steals...



> I never discounted steals! I just said I'd rather have a guy who block shots than gets steals.


That's not discounting them?



> what was one thing most players didn't do when sabonis was in the game? Drive the lane with no one there trying to stop them! Sabonis was HUGE. He was a mountain of a man! His size alone intimidated smaller players (and bigger players).


As Ed explained, your recollection of the matter differs dramatically. Sabonis' major weakness was how easy it was to drive on him. Mobile centers tortured him. Anyone that drove was likely to get a layup or a trip to the foul line. What made Sabonis fairly effective on D was the help he got from the rest of the "Ninja Defense" (as Ainge called it): Pippen, Rasheed, Augmon, Anthony, etc. Made it a lot tougher to dance around him with those guys dropping down.



> Webber was certainly intimidated,once he went in and got his ish sent back,he was never near Theo and the paint for the rest of the game.


That must explain why he tried several times to dunk on Theo.  

Dan


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> 
> I want to see the BLAZERS in the WCF. Now THAT would be fun. I really think we can get there too.
> 
> ...


Ourselves.


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## blazerboy30 (Apr 30, 2003)

I DEFINATELY saw intimidation out there when Theo was near. 
I know of 2 clear instances off the top of my head where Bibby was right near the hoop, wide open and he just flicked up a shot, short armed it and missed. It was clearly because he was worried as Theo was coming over to get the block. 

Blocks cause MUCH more distraction to the other team mentally, especially those blocks where the Kings were going to throw down a dunk and got denied. That is a huge psychological advantage to us.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> I hear what you're saying, Wank, but I don't think that the intimidation factor is really THAT big of a deal.
> ...


I'm not surprised you don't hold much credance to the "intimidation" factor. your opinions on many subjects lean toward the tangible and the quantifiable. for example, you've fairly consistently discounted the idea of "chemistry" while espousing the value of Wells in our lineup. 

I'm not saying this to be accusatory. from what I've seen, it's just your general outlook and many times I think it's 100% correct. in this case, i think it isn't. 

mathematically, you are correct if you compare a guy who makes 4 blocks vs a guy who makes 4 steals: 

four steals result in 6-8 points (as not all steals result in fast break points), and around 4 or 5 points your opponent DOESN'T score because you've taken away his opportunity.

four blocks result in 2-4 points (figuring the blocking team gets at least half the blocked balls and is able to score most of the time they get them), and around 5 or 6 points your opponent doesn't score because you've taken away his opportunity. (blocked shots usually come from at closer, higher percentage range, so it's more likely the opponent was going to score.) 

however, math gets thrown out the door when you compare the real world impact of steals vs blocks. 

the Kings clearly did NOT make plays they'd normally make against most teams. holding them to under 85 points is proof of this. Ratliff was so effective at stifling anything in the middle that they just stopped running most of the plays that took the ball inside. you can't assign a number value to the impact this has on a team. 

it's much, much rarer to see a great stealer completely dominate an opponent like Ratliff did last night. I remember years ago when Greg Anthony really got in the head of John Stockton and completely demoralized Utah, but it stands out in my mind because it was so exceptional. 

we used to be dead last in the entire NBA in opponent FG% (47%). in just 15 games he has pushed our team up ahead of Dallas, the Clippers and Orlando, and has us sitting at .453. in another ten games we could easily climb to the middle of the pack. (you could argue that Miles has also had some hand in this, but in many ways his defense is only replacing that of Bonzi and Sheed.)

you just don't see that kind of quick, drastic improvement in defense as a result of the addition of a good steals guy. 

all else being equal, i'll take a guy who averages 4 blocks a game over a guy who averages 4 steals a game every time. there's no way to prove my reasons except by inference and not simple mathematics, but it is so.


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## Leroy131 (Mar 11, 2004)

A blocked shot is not any more valuable than a steal, but a *shot blocker* is tremendously more valuable than a guy who can steal the ball. A guy like Ratliff totally changes the complexion of a game. Not only is he blocking shots, but he's making guys shy away from taking the ball inside. There were a few times where Kings players either missed shots or passed up easy ones jsut because of Theo's presence. While not necessarily always the case, a good ball hawk (take Bonzi Wells for example) gets his fair share of steals by playing the passing lane, but he also costs a team some easy points on those attempted steals where he gets out of position and his man cuts to the front of the basket.

Something else I've noticed is that they're getting a lot better about anticipating Theo's blocks and rotating on defense so that blocks aren't turning into easy layups by Theo's man like they were a couple of weeks ago...


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## Iwatas (Aug 3, 2003)

*great* post, Wanker. I remember those games where the Blazers would be stopped by a shot-blocker on a mission, and the announcers would point out, time and again, that the Blazers feared the shotblocker in question, and altered their shot or otherwise chose to take a poorer one.

Pity about you moniker, though. I live in the UK, and "wanker" is hardly a term of endearment, or a flattering noun. Suffice it to say that the editors would erase my translation of the word.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

what part of England do you live in? my wife is from a little town in Kent called Edenbridge. it was once a Roman pig farm, and is a few miles from the tiny castle Anne Bollin (sp?) lived in. 

my moniker is actually a little pet name of hers for me, as in "Oy yew wanker, when will you bugger off that sodding machine and give me a cuddle?" 

my understanding is that it translates roughly into "one who listens well and comprehends many things." i think she thinks of me as something of a renaissance man.


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## Iwatas (Aug 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>theWanker</b>!
> what part of England do you live in?


London.



> my moniker is actually a little pet name of hers for me, as in "Oy yew wanker, when will you bugger off that sodding machine and give me a cuddle?"
> 
> my understanding is that it translates roughly into "one who listens well and comprehends many things." i think she thinks of me as something of a renaissance man.


ROTFLMAO!!!!

To those not au fair with the Queen's English...A "wanker" is one who, um, pleasures himself. "Sod" is a nice way to say "plow". And I think everyone already knows what "bugger" means. And I don't mean in the Ender's Game sense of the word. Don't believe me? http://www.cybamall.com/nomadsrealm/english.htm

W--ker, thanks for the laughs! Your wife clearly has a typically English sense of humour. But I do wish you'd chage your moniker, as this is a family site!


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## RG (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>A blocked shot basically causes a missed FG, while a steal causes a TO. The latter is simply more valuable on average than the former.


A steal can also simply be an interuption of a potential turnover, it's all perspective.

You like the steal, normally I do too. But i"m sooooo tired of watching other teams do lay-up drills on the Blazers that I think the blocked shot is a bigger deal at this time.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RG</b>!
> 
> A steal can also simply be an interuption of a potential turnover, it's all perspective.


That's true, but then we need to point out that a blocked shot is often just a disruption of a shot that's bound to be missed 




> You like the steal, normally I do too. But i"m sooooo tired of watching other teams do lay-up drills on the Blazers that I think the blocked shot is a bigger deal at this time.


I hear what you're saying... I don't mean to argue that the Blazers would be better than they are if they had a guy who got as many steals as Theo got blocks (although they might be; I dunno). I'm just arguing that an average steal is inherently more valuable than an average blocked shot.

Ed O.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Iwatas</b>!
> But I do wish you'd chage your moniker, as this is a family site!


well, I have to admit when I first adopted the handle (on Fanhome, where most of the regulars here first migrated from) many moons ago I thought it might be a bit borderline. however, no mods kicked up a fuss at the time then, and none have since I joined this sight. 2000 posts into it now, it's hard to give up on. 

the way I look at it, there was a movie called "The Jerk", yet it could be interpreted similarly to "The wank". just like you probably say "sod George W Bush" all the time, yet never really actually contemplate sodomizing the President of the United States. 

(well, maybe you do. he does have a nice butt. for a guy. if you are into that sort of thing. which I most definitely am not. *eyes dart nervously*. ahem.) 

if it makes it any easier for your family-oriented sensibilities, imagine when you see my name that I'm actually intending to call myself "theSpanker" in tribute to my tendencies toward corporal punishment of those who misbehave. that should make everything much better. :yes:


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

RW#30...
did you see why I said that to him??
Better read back to see how that statement came about.
I don't comment to you,so let me be .


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

Nathan that is insane to call that missed shot a choke.
You mean to tell me missed shots are now called chokes??

Wow..we better have the hospital on standby then,because the Blazers sure missed(choked) alot of shots away in the 4th.

Actually that was a very good shot he missed and the tip in was good also.
Pretty classy to call a terrific team like that chokers. wow.


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

Blocks are to dunks as steals are to assists. Highlight material vs. sound basketball fundamentals. Neither is measurably more valuable than the other, just different.

Dan


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

Webber's choking goes back to his college days, Jackie. I should know. I went to college with the guy.

We DIDNT't choke because we WON.

Webber has never had a big game in his life. I mean never. He misses the big shots most of the time. I think he actually has hit ONE game winner, but it was a big time exception. Christie is a classic choker. There isn't enough space on this board for me to chronicle all of his choking.


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

so either you win or you choke???
that's a new one.

There is no getting beaten on that night by that team.
Any loss is a choke?
That is just an incredible way to look at sports.

wow..too bad.

Golly,hope that philosophy is not handed down to a child.


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