# is carter still one of the greats



## quick (Feb 13, 2004)

If he is a starter in an all star game then that means he must be performing in a way that a great player should.I don't care what anyone wants to say about vince in my opinion he is still one of the top 5 wingman in the league.My question is is he still capable of being one of the best players in the league? How will he and will he avoid many injuries in this next season? I really don't want to see him share the same fate as penny and grant.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

i think he is capable of being great but he has to revert to the ways of his rookie year, always driving and trying to dunk on anyone and everyone. since hes learned that jumpshot, its all been downhill. but as of now, there is no way in hell he is a top 5 wingman in the league... he's prolly behind kobe, tmac, bron, ronron, and ray allen not to mention guys who can play the 2 like kg, baron, and stevie franchise (well not so much steve but u get what i mean)


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## Dakota (Aug 18, 2002)

I still think he is a great player, but his inujuries are really killing his rep right now. He is going through Ken Griffey Jr. syndrom right now, but the only thing different with that theory is that Carter didn't dominate the league during the time where he was injury free. I don't think he will ever completely dominate the league by himself, but I do feel that he can achieve All-NBA First Team status soon enough. He just needs to play free of injury for a couple of years. He also needs to get his rep up again. He needs to either join the dunk contest next season, or he has to do something spectacular in the All-Star game next season. Fans still love Vince Carter, but will critics and coaches still like him? That is the real question.


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## Kezersoze (Mar 3, 2004)

Top 5 Swingman:
1. Kobe
2. Tmac
3. Carmelo 
4. Lebron
5. Vince


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## open mike (Jan 3, 2003)

I cant beleive people are putting lebron and carmello over carter... carter got off to a shaky start but since the allstar break he was pretty dominant.

Number after the all star break go like this
27 ppg, 5rpg, 5 ast, 1 steal and 1 block on 46% shooting and 40% from 3 point range.... those are all star starter numbers...

I can only hope that he carries those numbers onto next season.. and dont nobody bash his injury prone-ness cuz he played more games than Kobe, AI, and a few other high profile players.
I'll admit tho at times vince can look like hes made of glass... 

uhm ya vince carter is my favourite player =\


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

he has to stop taking jumpers and drive in more.....he did that in his rookie season, but now seems to be in love with mid range jumpers and some 3's

he could easily be dominant, just needs to work on conditioning and going back to his old style.


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## open mike (Jan 3, 2003)

Originally posted by <b>open mike</b>!
I cant beleive people are putting lebron and carmello over carter... carter got off to a shaky start but since the allstar break he was pretty dominant.

Number after the all star break go like this
27 ppg, 5rpg, 5 ast, 1 steal and 1 block on 46% shooting and 40% from 3 point range.... those are all star starter numbers...

I can only hope that he carries those numbers onto next season.. and dont nobody bash his injury prone-ness cuz he played more games than Kobe, AI, and a few other high profile players.
I'll admit tho at times vince can look like hes made of glass... 

I can also think of at least 5 or 6 times this year that carter has made key defensive plays late in games... blocking possible game winners and whatnot. He does still seam to be a lazy defender at times, and there isnt a player in the league with a fadeaway jumper like him.

I still regard carter as a top 5 swingman in the league when hes not rusty.

Kobe
Tmac
Allen
Carter
Peirce

Id put peja somewhere in there but not sure where... would be easier had he not dissapeared in the play offs like hes done before.
uhm ya vince carter is my favourite player =\


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2004)

he is still good, the only reason the team isn't doing too well is because of his injuries and the rest of team. get a mediocre player on the team and they could at least beat a few people.


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

I don't know about a top 5 swingman, maybe a top 5 2 guard...

Swingmen: Kobe, TMac, LeBron, Carmelo, Peja, Pierce, Allen, Artest, Marion, Jefferson, Odom, Mashburn (though injured), hell, Joe Johnson had a great season by all accounts.

Two-Guards: Kobe, TMac, LeBron, Allen, Pierce

They are all up there in one giant mess, after Kobe, then TMac, then everyone else pretty much.


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## RunToFreeForFly (Jul 16, 2003)

better question: What is the definition of being great?


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## Blazer Boy (Mar 17, 2004)

Carter is very much capable of getting back to greatness. Dude only had an off year... the Raptors also have had 2 bad year. If the Raptors could just get a little better supporting cast then Carter could answer his critics!!


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## Vermillion (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>quick</b>!
> If he is a starter in an all star game then that means he must be performing in a way that a great player should.


That's due more to his popularity than his skills though.

I see him as a top-6 SG:

1.Kobe
2.TMac
3.Iverson
4.Pierce
5.Allen
6.*Carter*


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## Devestata (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RunToFreeForFly</b>!
> better question: What is the definition of being great?


Being one of the best at your position, making the players around you better, clutchness, and probably even popularity are the bigger factors.


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## Vermillion (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Devestata</b>!
> 
> 
> Being one of the best at your position, making the players around you better, clutchness, and probably even popularity are the bigger factors.


Winning helps too.


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## dork (Mar 21, 2004)

carter- top 5 swingm an in the league.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Carter playing on the raps isnt helping a lot either, unless they get a better team he will still be doing the same thing he has been doing. He needs other players to take the load of him, to compare Lebron and Carmelo to VC right now is nothing but travesty, what have they ever done. Vince is d raptors, without him that team would not hold, he makes the players on his team better, I can recount many clutch moments from him, he can defend when he has to and he his a great passer. I'd definitely put him in the top 5 wingmen in the game today.


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## Captain Kool (May 18, 2004)

Look, most of you say Carter should go back to his old style of playing ( More driving, less shooting )...

But you forgot something. When he was a Rookie, Zone defense was prohibited. That means that driving was easier, because there was no big man who could play "helpside".

Today it's a different story...

As soon as he drives into the key, he's surrounded by 3 players, so he has to rely on his jumpshot.

I think that Zone defense was only introduced to preserve Jordans status as "Greatest of all time" (Which he not even is). With Zone Defense allowed, there will never be a wingman as dominant as Jordan. Just imagine T-Mac and Kobe in their primes without Zone defense. They would be at least as dominant as Jordan was.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

It's not like Jordan was guarded by one defender because zone defense was prohibited. He was more than collapsed on when entering the lane.


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

V. Carter was never one of the greats IMO. He could jump out the gym........and that's it. He never had the heart of a champion ala Iverson, he could never stay healthy ala Kobe, and he couldn't be the best scorer ala TMAC. Vince Carter was all hype b/c he could dunk better than everybody. I could name 10 wing player who are better than Vince off the top of my head.......maybe 15


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## Captain Kool (May 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> V. Carter was never one of the greats IMO. He could jump out the gym........and that's it. He never had the heart of a champion ala Iverson, he could never stay healthy ala Kobe, and he couldn't be the best scorer ala TMAC. Vince Carter was all hype b/c he could dunk better than everybody. I could name 10 wing player who are better than Vince off the top of my head.......maybe 15


...Hater...


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Kool</b>!
> 
> 
> ...Hater...


Am I lying though? There are at least 10 better wing platyers than Vince in the NBA. Tell me if I was lying.


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## Captain Kool (May 18, 2004)

Yes, you are lying...


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Kool</b>!
> Yes, you are lying...


What part was I lying about.......explain yourself. I gave reasons why I feel the way I do.....Support your answer.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

Vince is still in the top 30 players in the league.. but the problem is that Dwyane Wade dunks more than him.. that's not right.. he should dunk more, stop laying it up and elevate dude..


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## pizza man (Jun 1, 2004)

Kenny the Jet needs to change VC's nickname to "Half Man/Half a Season."


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>quick</b>!
> If he is a starter in an all star game then that means he must be performing in a way that a great player should.I don't care what anyone wants to say about vince in my opinion he is still one of the top 5 wingman in the league.My question is is he still capable of being one of the best players in the league? How will he and will he avoid many injuries in this next season? I really don't want to see him share the same fate as penny and grant.


Once you've reached great status you're always great! A player can never lose that. Is he still one of the top wingmen in the league? Maybe. But only time will tell if he can stay healthy and get his team back to the position they once were in.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

So people are saying because Vince doesnt drive and dunk as much as his earlier seasons that makes him a bad player. Do u understand that everytime this man tries to dunk he is triple teamed, but besides this fact he can still score 30 and 40. I dont think its anything bad to be able to drop 30 or 40 points on jumpshots. Whoever thinks Carter has no heart must not have seen this man play, yes he gets injured but who doesnt. I have said it and will continue to say it, surroud him with a better cast and you will see him do wonders.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> V. Carter was never one of the greats IMO. He could jump out the gym........and that's it. He never had the heart of a champion ala Iverson, he could never stay healthy ala Kobe, and he couldn't be the best scorer ala TMAC. Vince Carter was all hype b/c he could dunk better than everybody. I could name 10 wing player who are better than Vince off the top of my head.......maybe 15


I doubt anyone in all of BBB has traded VC more times than I. However, none of my trades were motivated by VC himself.

As someone who has seen the majority of his games there is no doubt that the zone has made collapsing easier and isolating harder.

Is Vince the greatest dunker of All-time? Yes. Unequivocally, Yes. Do I mean Dunking contest dunker? No. His most impressive dunks have come in games over competiton and in traffic anticpating putbacks.

His shot is fantastic. His FG% has gone down but I argue that they have gone down because he is forced into taking bad shots and last second SC shots due to his poor surrounding cast. 

Remember in what was it, Game 2 v philly in the playoffs when he went for 50 and some record number of 3's. That was no fluke. 

By no means is he without his faults but he is certainly a top wing man.


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## Ben1 (May 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>pizza man</b>!
> Kenny the Jet needs to change VC's nickname to "Half Man/Half a Season."


:laugh:

Okay, VC may not seem like a top 5 wing player right now, especially with the Raptors' dismay season and other wing players' teams excelling, but he is capable of being "one of the greats" again if he is surrounded with proper talent and not suffer another serious injury. So in other words, he has the talent, but it depends very much on the status and ability of his team and also "luck" (in regards to the injuries).


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## ToddMacCulloch11 (May 31, 2003)

If you mean "one of the greats" currently in the league, I could understand that argument. He was a few years ago, but injuries have caused a drop off. Don't get me wrong, he's still good. its just there are a lot of people before him on the list.


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

Vince definitely still has the talent to be one of the greats... he just needs to stay injury free.. and this season was a good first step... I expect him to be much more dominant come next season.... 

you recall that during the Sydney olympics.. he was the best player on that team... a team that included garnett, kidd, etc etc... he was the guy they went to in the clutch.. 

they also had a little one and one within the team... the final was carter vs garnett and vince won (I think 14-7)... garnett's comments after was something like "he's on a different level than everyone else"... 

so I really don't think you can close the book on the guy just yet... he has a ways to go.. but let's all hope he gets there cuz let's face it... the league is so much more exciting with him around playing the way he can... (playoffs have been so boring this year)


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> As someone who has seen the majority of his games there is no doubt that the zone has made collapsing easier and isolating harder.



I have seen more than 20 Toronto games this year myself. In those games, I have seen Vince get hurt (not injured) at least 15 times. He is very soft.

As far as the zone defense, I am not a fan of the zone.......but every other player has adjusted to it. Why can't Vince. You can't use that as an excuse for why he has played at a mediocre level.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Yes its not an excuse, but you also forget that Vince played under a defense first oriented coach, Kevin O'Neill wasn't good at running offensive sets for Vince. The raps were bottom in the league in scoring but were one of the best defensive teams in the league. He might be soft but didnt he play 74 or 75 games this year


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> Yes its not an excuse, but you also forget that Vince played under a defense first oriented coach, Kevin O'Neill wasn't good at running offensive sets for Vince. The raps were bottom in the league in scoring but were one of the best defensive teams in the league. He might be soft but didnt he play 74 or 75 games this year


Yeah, he played in 73 games, but that's not something he should get praise for. That should be an every year thing. Don't make an excuse for the man. He was the only option on the team so what are you talking about. His coach ran all the offensive stes through him. It's not the coaches fault that Vince was in the top ten in turnovers this year.


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

He was deadly from behind the arc, better than MJ, so he should still shoot jumpers but also drive to the hoop.


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## open mike (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen more than 20 Toronto games this year myself. In those games, I have seen Vince get hurt (not injured) at least 15 times. He is very soft.


Thats a flat out lie and you know it right there. Hes played more games than AI this year and they played almost the same last year but all i hear about AI is how much of a soldier he is.

VC is a top 5 swingman in the league next year you can book it.


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>open mike</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats a flat out lie and you know it right there. Hes played more games than AI this year and they played almost the same last year but all i hear about AI is how much of a soldier he is.
> ...



Vince played in more games this year......but A.I. played in all 82 games last year. Iverson gives you more points and steals; he gives you one less rebound but over 2 more assists. I'll take Iverson any day


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## open mike (Jan 3, 2003)

and carter gives u much much better shooting efficeincy and more blocks than AI.. i take that over the + a few assists per game.. hes not a point gaurd hes not gonna get 8 apg..


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jokeaward</b>!
> He was deadly from behind the arc, *better than MJ, *


That's nothing to rave about.


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## PoorPoorSonics (Mar 20, 2004)

Give me a break, dont you realize what a ridiculous statement it is when you say... "all Vince needs to do is stay healthy"...thats the problem, he cant, hes soft. Iverson is a soldier. This is the first time in his career he has missed a significant amount of games, and hes way smaller than Carter. Carter misses a decent amount of games every year.

Maybe Carter would be great IF he stayed healthy, but thats a big IF.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought having a bad surrounding cast made it easy to put up bigger numbers, ala Shareef AR...especially when you are the teams main offensive weapon...or in carters case the only?


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PoorPoorSonics</b>!
> Give me a break, dont you realize what a ridiculous statement it is when you say... "all Vince needs to do is stay healthy"...thats the problem, he cant, hes soft. Iverson is a soldier. This is the first time in his career he has missed a significant amount of games, and hes way smaller than Carter. Carter misses a decent amount of games every year.
> 
> Maybe Carter would be great IF he stayed healthy, but thats a big IF.
> ...


he did put up big numbers... either way, he does look pretty soft sometimes, i have to admit that. i remember when carter and bosh both sprained their ankles in the same game. bosh played the next day while carter was out two weeks. i understand carter's sprain was more severe than a usual one but two weeks is a lot...


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## patticus (Jan 4, 2004)

i think it comes down to - if he's putting up his regular numbers, he PLAYS the majority of the season, and the raptors win (winning season maybe at least 2nd rd playoffs), he'll re-earn that rep. top5 / all-nba


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

Vince played more games then T-mac who shut down his season cause his team was going nowhere, Vince on the other hand continued to play(although not very much) in the last game of the year which meant absoultly nothing. He put up all-star numbers and he was benched by Carlisle in the entire 2nd half. If he lead the east in votes that means that people want to see him play. he has been extremly clutch on both sides of the floor execpt in 2 or three games. having a good defensive coach who knows abouslutly nothing about offense does make a difference. KO had no idea how to coach the entire team other then Micheal Curry, look at when Vince performed at his best the raptors where not a half court team they would always look to push the ball, maybe because the zone but the last 2 coaches have both been half court coaches. another why Vince seems like he has not been getting up for those crazy dunks and ally-ops are because the raptors have not had a true PG since Chris Childs was on the raptors which was the first year that Vince got hurt and they made that crazy push for the playoffs. The argument that Vince could never be the top scorer in the league is b.s. Vince would rather average 20 ppg and win then get 30 and not make it past the first round. Vince is not right now a top 5 guard but he could be if the raptors surround him with the right coaches and players


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## LeBronisnumba1 (May 11, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>quick</b>!
> If he is a starter in an all star game then that means he must be performing in a way that a great player should.I don't care what anyone wants to say about vince in my opinion he is still one of the top 5 wingman in the league.My question is is he still capable of being one of the best players in the league? How will he and will he avoid many injuries in this next season? I really don't want to see him share the same fate as penny and grant.


 
I think he will do pretty good next year. But all he needs to do is work hard. Like all the other greats.


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## dork (Mar 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>madman</b>!
> Vince played more games then T-mac who shut down his season cause his team was going nowhere, Vince on the other hand continued to play(although not very much) in the last game of the year which meant absoultly nothing. He put up all-star numbers and he was benched by Carlisle in the entire 2nd half. If he lead the east in votes that means that people want to see him play. he has been extremly clutch on both sides of the floor execpt in 2 or three games. having a good defensive coach who knows abouslutly nothing about offense does make a difference. KO had no idea how to coach the entire team other then Micheal Curry, look at when Vince performed at his best the raptors where not a half court team they would always look to push the ball, maybe because the zone but the last 2 coaches have both been half court coaches. another why Vince seems like he has not been getting up for those crazy dunks and ally-ops are because the raptors have not had a true PG since Chris Childs was on the raptors which was the first year that Vince got hurt and they made that crazy push for the playoffs. The argument that Vince could never be the top scorer in the league is b.s. Vince would rather average 20 ppg and win then get 30 and not make it past the first round. Vince is not right now a top 5 guard but he could be if the raptors surround him with the right coaches and players


well i guess the basketbal gods are punishing rick carlisle for bennching vince carter/


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Am not too sure about the carlisle thing though, I know he's pretty good friends with Kevin O'Neill and Vince at the time had some sort of injury, Kevin O'Neill prolly told Carlisle he needs more rest and the team needs him more than the All star game, but heck thats just my opinion.


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dork</b>!
> 
> 
> well i guess the basketbal gods are punishing rick carlisle for bennching vince carter/



Was Carter a top 5 guard this year?

Kobe 
TMac
Kidd
B. Davis
Cassell
Francis
LeBron


IMO all were better guards than Vince *this year* .


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> 
> 
> As far as the zone defense, I am not a fan of the zone.......but every other player has adjusted to it. Why can't Vince. You can't use that as an excuse for why he has played at a mediocre level.


Who knew that 22, 5 and 5 was mediocre? Especially when the team has no post presence and no one else on the team can make a shot.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PoorPoorSonics</b>!
> 
> Also, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought having a bad surrounding cast made it easy to put up bigger numbers, ala Shareef AR...especially when you are the teams main offensive weapon...or in carters case the only?


When you are the sole focus of a team like VC is, you get double and triple teamed on a night in and night out basis. How often does SAR see double and triple teams? When no one else can make a shot (the whole Raps roster) you would rather leave 2 people open than leave Vince 1 on 1 or even 1 on 2.


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> When you are the sole focus of a team like VC is, you get double and triple teamed on a night in and night out basis. How often does SAR see double and triple teams? When no one else can make a shot (the whole Raps roster) you would rather leave 2 people open than leave Vince 1 on 1 or even 1 on 2.


Last time I checked, Jalen Rose could hit a shot. Donyell Marshall and Mo Pete can hit shots as well. It's not like Vince doesn't have other scorers on his team.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> 
> 
> Last time I checked, Jalen Rose could hit a shot. Donyell Marshall and Mo Pete can hit shots as well. It's not like Vince doesn't have other scorers on his team.


Then you don't watch enough Raptor games or know how they performed as a team offensively.

Points per game 85.44 - Ranked 29th
FG% .418 - Ranked 28th
Asts per game - 19.20 Ranked 27th

They are decent at the 3pt% with .356, ranked 8th, but that does not overcome the rest of their deficiencies.


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> Then you don't watch enough Raptor games or know how they performed as a team offensively.
> ...


I have watched over 20 Raptor games this year. Now, all I said was that they have scorers, I didn't say they were scoring. It's ironic that Vince and TMac are cousins b/c they have the same effect on thier respective teams. They score but really don't get the other players involved. TMac has it a little worst b/c he doesn't have any other scorers on his team. The Raptors would often get one shot per possession b/c Vince would take the long jumper as oppose to taking it to the rack and at least frawing the foul. Maybe it's the offense, but Vince should get his teammmates involved a lil more. They tend to play better as a team in his absence.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> 
> 
> The Raptors would often get one shot per possession b/c Vince would take the long jumper as oppose to taking it to the rack and at least frawing the foul. Maybe it's the offense, but Vince should get his teammmates involved a lil more. *They tend to play better as a team in his absence. *


Interesting. VC gets injured feb 18 coming down on Bowen's foot from a J. The Raps then go 0 and 6 without him losing badly, or to bad teams, or both.

NJ 91-72
Sac 96-81
@NJ 86-74
DC 76-74
@Bos 88-75
Bos 91-82


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

33 must have seen some old games of Carter's cuz basically Carter is the one that makes his team better. The only way Donyell Marshall and Mo Pete can score is because they benefit from the triple and double teams Vince gets. When he was out for 6 games, and teams began focusing on them, they couldnt do anything, teams they could have beaten with Vince in the lineup. To say Vince doesnt get his teammates involved is a travesty.


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## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

Has anyoe noticed that carters outside shot is looking quite ugly now?

Like he doesnt have as much lift in his legs as he used to but hes still shooting the same technique/form. To me it kinda looks like hes hoisting the shot.

as for top 5? nah, theres kobe and tmac, i think ray allen is elite, brons up there and AI. Carter comes in at 6th imo.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

It's absurd, really.

When a team does poorly, everyone blames the star.

The problem is rarely the star. Its the SCRUBS.

Vince is a premier player. When he is on the court, the Raps are an above average team. When he is off the court, they are simply terrible.

Dan Rosenbaum did the most advanced set of statistical analyses ever completed for basketball. He took +/- stats for every player for every shift and was able to program out the effects of teammates.

He also took these results and "solved" for the impact of conventional stats, in order to weigh conventional stats in a way that measures the actual effect on game scores and winning. 

Guess what?

Vince came out top 10 using either criteria.

Incidentally, KG fans and detractors, Garnett turned out as hands-down, the premier player in the NBA.

Lebron will almost certainly be better than Vince, but right now, he has a long way to go. Franchise is finally learning to play team ball, but it is a painful process and ugly to watch. He is still learning.

T-Mac is way better; Kobe is better; Ray Allen is a little better, Baron Davis is even; Kidd is a little behind.


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## quick (Feb 13, 2004)

3 seasons ago and before carter was better than both kobe and mcgrady but since he has been inured alot and they ascended their levels more than carter you can compare him to them.Now as for the other wingmen that has been mentioned they are debatable.

mcgrady:no

kobe:no

iverson:debatable

pierce:debatable

artest:debatable

allen:debatable

hamilton yes


So nope I still think carter is one of the best sg or sf.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>quick</b>!
> 3 seasons ago and before carter was better than both kobe and mcgrady but since he has been inured alot and they ascended their levels more than carter you can compare him to them.Now as for the other wingmen that has been mentioned they are debatable.
> 
> So nope I still think carter is one of the best sg or sf.


I don't agree that Carter was better than TMac or Kobe 3 seasons ago. I'd say he was on par with them. Now, he's a few notches below them. Carter's best season was 2000-2001. Compare their stats:

*Vince Carter* 
PPG-27.6
FG%-46.0%
3PT%-40.8%
FT%-76.5%
RPG-5.5
APG-3.9
SPG-1.52
BPG-1.09
TPG-2.23

*Tracy McGrady* 
PPG-26.8
FG%-45.7%
3PT%-35.5%
FT%-73.3&
RPG-7.5
APG-4.6
SPG-1.51
BPG-1.53
TPG-2.57

*Kobe Bryant* 
PPG-28.5
FG%-46.4%
3PT%-30.5%
FT%-85.3%
RPG-5.9
APG-5.0
SPG-1.68
BPG-.63
TPG-3.24

If anything, Vince was even with them a few years ago. You act like he has somehow descended to Kobe and TMac's level. Vince was no better than they were when he was healthy.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> Has anyoe noticed that carters outside shot is looking quite ugly now?
> 
> Like he doesnt have as much lift in his legs as he used to but hes still shooting the same technique/form. To me it kinda looks like hes hoisting the shot.
> ...


I don't see much reason to put Allen over VC, they're pretty even IMO but I'd take VC if we were picking teams for an impromtu game this summer.

VC's 3-pointer did seem a little off at times this year but especially after spraining his ankle on an attempt. He's still one of the better shooters in the league and should prove so next year. Vince likes pulling up off the jab step but he often didn't have the freedom to create his own perimeter shots unless the clock was ticking down. 

VC drove and collapsed the defense all season long, making excellent passes to the perimeter that often lead directly to assists. He also played the best defense of his career, better than most of his offensive-minded peers.

One on one, VC is one of the best to have ever lived. If he has room to work and good players to pass to him (which he hasn't really had much with the raps) he's pretty much unstoppable. He has become a much better passer and was one of the best point forwards in the league (also defending larger players on a nightly basis) last year. 

Vince still has what it takes to put up over 27 ppg, the question is whether the raps will have the players to facilitate that. If the raps were to pick up Ben Gordon, however (fingers crossed), i would expect 24 ppg (not playing slow ball) but career high assists. On the right team, yes, VC (still) has what it takes to be considered a great. He needs to continue improving (along with the team), getting stronger to achieve any lasting measure of greatness because the players of the league are young, hungry, and are growing up quick.


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## quick (Feb 13, 2004)

> I don't agree that Carter was better than TMac or Kobe 3 seasons ago. I'd say he was on par with them. Now, he's a few notches below them. Carter's best season was 2000-2001. Compare their stats


 Your opinion but in mines carter was better than them that year and the carter who was able to lead the raptors to their wins in his better days.If you think not then who was the better out of the three when they first came to the league?



> If anything, Vince was even with them a few years ago. You act like he has somehow descended to Kobe and TMac's level. Vince was no better than they were when he was healthy.


 Theres a reason you say that and it might be because kobe and tmac were getting better that year but still what I'm saying remains.A healthy carter was better than them at those times especially when they weren't as good as today and the last two seasons.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what about Kidd and the other top point guards of the league? i'd advise that you compare apples to apples, and oranges to oranges. on top of this, while VC is better at SG, last season he was playing (point) small forward.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Matter of fact Vince plays more at small forward now, I wonder why people dont consider him a small forward


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## ufm19 (Jun 7, 2004)

another young phenom, just like Penny who seems like he's burning out.

I think he won't be like Hill, where his career is over after his best year, I think he will play a few more years, but I don't think he will be a topflight star. He will be a pretty good player, one of the two or three best on his team, but not a star. He has never taken the spotlight. He's a starter at the allstar game simply because everyone loved his huge dunks a few years ago and still remember them. It's as simple as that. He's still a good player, but I don't think he will ever be in Kobe/T-Mac's league.:yes:


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ufm19</b>!
> another young phenom, just like Penny who seems like he's burning out.
> 
> I think he won't be like Hill, where his career is over after his best year, I think he will play a few more years, but I don't think he will be a topflight star. He will be a pretty good player, one of the two or three best on his team, but not a star. He has never taken the spotlight. He's a starter at the allstar game simply because everyone loved his huge dunks a few years ago and still remember them. It's as simple as that. He's still a good player, but I don't think he will ever be in Kobe/T-Mac's league.:yes:


I totally agree.

Carteris a modern day Dominique.........all flash and no substance....well, Nique had some substance.


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## ufm19 (Jun 7, 2004)

nique was probly one of the top 50 players ever

he was a much better scorer than carter he had both flash and substance carter had a great 2001 he could be called a great player even though he's an offensive soloist... now the injuries screwed him up


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> 
> what about Kidd and the other top point guards of the league? i'd advise that you compare apples to apples, and oranges to oranges. on top of this, while VC is better at SG, last season he was playing (point) small forward.


If I asked you to name the top five guards, then your list would look similar to this. I wasn't breaking it down by PG SG SF PF and C

I just named the top five guards.......I could do the same if you said VC was a forward. There are probably 10 better than him at the Foward position.


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## ufm19 (Jun 7, 2004)

i'll name the better forwards

Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Amare Stoudemire, Rasheed Wallace, Karl Malone, Paul Pierce, Chris Webber, Peja, Jermaine O'Neal, Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, Carmelo Anthony, and possibly Andrei Kirilenko, a few other players i'm not in the mood


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ufm19</b>!
> i'll name the better forwards
> 
> Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Amare Stoudemire, Rasheed Wallace, Karl Malone, Paul Pierce, Chris Webber, Peja, Jermaine O'Neal, Kenyon Martin, Richard Jefferson, Carmelo Anthony, and possibly Andrei Kirilenko, a few other players i'm not in the mood


I agree with the point you all are making but do you really think RJ, Kirilenko, Malone, and Melo are all better than a healthy Vince Carter? I don't


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## ufm19 (Jun 7, 2004)

Kirilenko probably isnt

but Carter was healthy a lot this year and he was nothing special picking him at #17 was one of the worst fantasy decisions i ever made


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

You all are seriously kidding me, telling me that Vince is one of the two or three best players on his team, telling me that there are ten small forwards better than him. The only reason people are even putting most of this players ahead of him is because his team didnt make the playoffs. When they were without injuries werent they 5th in the East. The fact that he has lost some of his explosiveness does that make him any worse, he has adjusted to the fact and greatly improved his jumpshot. Lets see what a true point guard and a good center will do to really see if Vince is one of the best or not.


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> You all are seriously kidding me, telling me that Vince is one of the two or three best players on his team, telling me that there are ten small forwards better than him. The only reason people are even putting most of this players ahead of him is because his team didnt make the playoffs. When they were without injuries werent they 5th in the East. The fact that he has lost some of his explosiveness does that make him any worse, he has adjusted to the fact and greatly improved his jumpshot. Lets see what a true point guard and a good center will do to really see if Vince is one of the best or not.


Vince is not a top tier player anymore.....and I really question whether he was ever a top tier player. If Vince isn't dunking the ball, what is he god for? He doesn't play defense, he doesn't hit the glass, and he is too fragile to depend on when the season is winding down.


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ufm19</b>!
> nique was probly one of the top 50 players ever
> 
> he was a much better scorer than carter he had both flash and substance carter had a great 2001 he could be called a great player even though he's an offensive soloist... now the injuries screwed him up


Nique is not one of the top 50 players ever. He wasn't when they put the list out in '96, and with guys like Duncan, KG, Kobe, etc.....he will never be.


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree with the point you all are making but do you really think RJ, Kirilenko, Malone, and Melo are all better than a healthy Vince Carter? I don't


Actually, AK47 brings a lot more to the table than Vince. AK47 can rebound, play man defense, get steals and blocks. Vince is a better scorer and that's it.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Its comments made by 33 that actually irks me, you say if he doesn't dunk he is not good for anything. You say he doesnt defend, he doesnt hit the glass, last time I checked Vince was 6'6 not 6'11. He is not the best defender, but he is not the worst also. He has made numerous key defensive plays this past season. Because he doesnt dunk makes him a bad player, I'll let you know that he is a better shooter than Kobe, but instead of getting into that arguement, I also read AK47 brings a lot more to the table than Vince, on the defensive end maybe? What about offense, passing, taking over a game. I dont realize a time where AK47 has ever taken over a game and I have nothing against him. If the raps make the playoffs next year, we will see if this discussion exists at the end of the year


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> Its comments made by 33 that actually irks me, you say if he doesn't dunk he is not good for anything. You say he doesnt defend, he doesnt hit the glass, last time I checked Vince was 6'6 not 6'11. He is not the best defender, but he is not the worst also. He has made numerous key defensive plays this past season. Because he doesnt dunk makes him a bad player, I'll let you know that he is a better shooter than Kobe, but instead of getting into that arguement, I also read AK47 brings a lot more to the table than Vince, on the defensive end maybe? What about offense, passing, taking over a game. I dont realize a time where AK47 has ever taken over a game and I have nothing against him. If the raps make the playoffs next year, we will see if this discussion exists at the end of the year


Do you play ball at all? You can take over a game.......defensively. Just look at Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman, Pippen, Jordan. Vince is a better shooter than Kobe? HAHA I'm not a Kobe fan at all but I know that Kobe is a bettershooter than Vince. I said that AK47 doesn't give you the points that Vince can get. What about Vince's passing? He is not known for doing any passing. 

It irks me that people bring the fan point of view to this site instead of an optimistic pointof view. I have never heard a Kobe fan point out the negatives in his game. I have yet to hear a Vince fan (over 21, not those little kids that stuff the ballot so they can see dunks instaed of All-Star caliber basketball) say what Vince can't do along with what they seen him do. Lets be real.....who's softer: Tim Duncan or Vince Carter?


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## open mike (Jan 3, 2003)

33 you dont make any sense at all, your saying because vince doesnt dunk anymore hes not a good player, he still averages 22ppg, shoots a better percentage from the field and 3 pt line that most other top tier sg/sfs, he averaged almost the same number of assists as kobe on a team where nobody can hit an open shot.

Your saying vince isnt a good passer... not true
Your saying vince is lazy on the glass, which he may be at times but hes not expected to grab 10 boards a game hes a sg/sf he gets 5 boards a game.. no biggie and hes a great shooter so what really is your knock on carter besides that hes been injury prone in the past?

Hes a top 10 tier player next year if his knees stay healthy, book it.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Yup 33 just proved how ignorant he is, anyone can takeover a game...sure!!! I totally agree, maybe thats one of the reasons why players dont all earn the same amount of money. Did you say Vince cant pass, are you kidding me. He makes everyone on his team better when he's on the floor, and to think Kobe is a better shooter than Vince is quite debatable cuz most of Kobe's points come off drives, Vince has turned to a jumpshooter and this is due to injuries. If Kobe took as many jumpshots as Vince, his FG% would be terrible, if am right isnt Kobe shooting under 20% from the 3pt range in the playoffs. And genius what is allstar caliber, I'd rather see Vince start than Redd or Artest, who cares about 3point shots or defense in an allstar game.


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## ufm19 (Jun 7, 2004)

well i was siding with 33 earlier

but then he got a bit out of line

Carter is a great player not a star. He's not a Top 10 player in the league, if he was in 2001. He's a great scorer and a good passer, but u are on crack if you honestly think he's a better shooter than Kobe. Kobe is a much better shooter, an underrated one at that. Look at all the insane ugly fadeaways he makes. CArter can take it to the hole but is soft. He's also not good on defense; he's an offensive soloist. At this point he's probly better than AK47, but he's not an amazing player, not a cant-miss player. He probably won't get past the realm of 22-23 points per game.
What I meant was not that he was the top 2-3 players on his team but that on a good team that will be his legacy.

And the 50 Greatest Players list was retarded. If you want a real list for the most part get MR. Stat's "Who's Better, Who's Best". Some of his rankings are dumb (for instance he has Shaq #1 and Duncan #9) but he analyzes every little thing about a player and uses logic. Nique was #49 on the list.


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## uscback2back (Jun 6, 2004)

Has vince accomplished more than tracy throughout his career so far?


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## open mike (Jan 3, 2003)

ufm19 carters game pretty much consists of fadeaways nowadays.. at which he shoots 46% from... i dont think its out of the question to think that carter is a better shooter than kobe is.


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>open mike</b>!
> ufm19 carters game pretty much consists of fadeaways nowadays.. at which he shoots 46% from... i dont think its out of the question to think that carter is a better shooter than kobe is.



........you mean it's not out of the question to think that Carter takes more jumpers. I know that if we were to start a fantasy league, Vince wouldn't get picked in the top 20....or maybe the top 30.


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ufm19</b>!
> well i was siding with 33 earlier
> 
> but then he got a bit out of line
> ...



Where did I get out of line? When I said that if Vince isn't dunking then he isn't effective, it's true. People used to have a certain fear of Vince when he got the ball. They just knew he was about to do something spectacular. Now, they know he is too soft to drive down the lane so that fear factor is gone. If I'm on the opposing team, I want Vince shooting fade away threes when the lane is wide open. I never see Vince hitting the offensive glass. And why doesn't he drive and kick to Donyell or Mo Pete for the three. The Raptors could be more successful than they are right now. There is pretty much nothing you can tell me that will convince me to believe that Vince is a superstar these days. I can name 10 forwards and 10 guards that I would rather have on my team than Vince. I could name at least 3 centers that i would take rather than picking Vince.......that makes him a top 24 player in my book.......


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## ufm19 (Jun 7, 2004)

i agree that vince is no longer a great

but he is still a good offensive player even without his dunking and driving. Not nearly as good as before but you can't say he's ineffective because he can set up his teammates or hit the fadeaway, just not as well as kobe.
;
kobe takes the ugliest shots ever but somehow they go in. kobe's a better shooter than carter there's no question in my mind.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>open mike</b>!
> I cant beleive people are putting lebron and carmello over carter... carter got off to a shaky start but since the allstar break he was pretty dominant.
> 
> Number after the all star break go like this
> 27 ppg, 5rpg, 5 ast, 1 steal and 1 block on 46% shooting and 40% from 3 point range.... those are all star starter numbers...


I don't know where you got those numbers from, but they're not right. Vince averaged 25.2 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 4.8 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.8 bpg on 42.6% shooting and 38.7% from 3-Point range.


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't know where you got those numbers from, but they're not right. Vince averaged 25.2 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 4.8 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.8 bpg on 42.6% shooting and 38.7% from 3-Point range.


read his post that is his total year averages what he wrote was his post-allstar game numbers


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

and 33 who told you Vince doesnt make open passes to Donny and Mo pete, if you knew anything about the raps you would know how inconsistent Mo pete has been. And Donyell Marshall occasionally knocks down one or 2 threes, when Vince is of the court, he is very limited.

The fact that you would take 10 or 20 guards ahead of Vince in your fantasy league doesnt make them any better than him. Please 33 tell me how many Vince games that you saw this year and the lane was open and he didnt drive, if am right he more than often gets triple teamed, if you knew your math right that doesnt make any space for the open lane. Heck why am I even arguing you will only believe what you want to believe.


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## ufm19 (Jun 7, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> and 33 who told you Vince doesnt make open passes to Donny and Mo pete, if you knew anything about the raps you would know how inconsistent Mo pete has been. And Donyell Marshall occasionally knocks down one or 2 threes, when Vince is of the court, he is very limited.
> 
> The fact that you would take 10 or 20 guards ahead of Vince in your fantasy league doesnt make them any better than him. Please 33 tell me how many Vince games that you saw this year and the lane was open and he didnt drive, if am right he more than often gets triple teamed, if you knew your math right that doesnt make any space for the open lane. Heck why am I even arguing you will only believe what you want to believe.


for once i have to agree. i still don't think carter is an elite player but everything u said there make sense

that being said i still think he's not one of the top 10 players in the league but i don't think he has fallen as far as 33 says he has

he's probably one of the top 15 or 20 in the league i love this post tho hbwoy props and i will give you a 5-star rating


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

If carter wouldn't have gotten injured then he could have been like kobe/tmac type of player. Now?? He's nowhere near. He'll never be. I hope he proves me wrong but I've seen that with G.Hill.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

Heard Carter didnt work hard in the offseason as tleast so far.

Another 25/5/5 at 45%fg season at best assuming injury free!


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>madman</b>!
> 
> 
> read his post that is his total year averages what he wrote was his post-allstar game numbers


No, the ones I just posted were his post all-star game numbers, the ones he posted were nothing. I did read the post, I don't where those numbers came from because they're not right.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

The answer to all this prolly lies in the fact that Carter's team didnt make the playoffs, reputations are made or broken in the playoffs. If the raptors make the playoffs next year, and barring injuries they should, Vince will be on everyone's lips once again


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

i am just waiting for him to tear up the league and watch everyone's attitude change


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

I didnt read the rest of the thread, but it seems the title of the thread is flawed. When was Carter one of the greats? The word "still" implies he was at some point.


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## open mike (Jan 3, 2003)

You must be ridiculous if you think carter wasnt regarded as one of the best players in the league, just 3 years ago it was when most peoples list of top 5 players in the league included vince carter, now just 2 injury plagued seasons and a mediocore one after that (20,5,5,1,1 season being mediocore) everybody forgets that the man still has talent he just needs to stay relatively healthy throughout the year 75games+. He was a freak before at dunking but saying the only thing the man could do was dunk is ridiculous for an almost 30ppg season. Hes shoots a great percentage, a good passer in the lane and can draw the fouls once again.

Clearly hes not at that level anymore but he cant have dropped far.

Im with some other of you fellow raptors fans il just wait for vince to tear it up next year.


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## Derrex (Jul 21, 2002)

Na, vince carter is no longer the old vince carter. Injuries took its toll not only physically, but also mentally.


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

just cause he cant dunk dosent mean that he sucks


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> I didnt read the rest of the thread, but it seems the title of the thread is flawed. When was Carter one of the greats? The word "still" implies he was at some point.


I agree. He _was_ one of the top players in the league at one point, but he was never considered a "great" player.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>madman</b>!
> just cause he cant dunk dosent mean that he sucks


True, but I dont believe he said he sucks. He said he wasn't the same player.

Much of Carter's prowess from his early days was predicated on his amazing athleticism. If you take that away, then all you've got left is an above average player.

And I am not Vince hater either. I've been a fan of his since Mainland HS.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> True, but I dont believe he said he sucks. He said he wasn't the same player.
> ...


True, and if we get away T-mac's freedom on the offense set, we will get an above average player as well, BUT I AM A T-MAC HATER, SO TAKE IT TO WHAT IT'S WORTH HERE!


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

But how can u be an above average player when your the 7th top scorer in the league, at one point in the season averaging 27ppg, 5apg, 5rpg, 1stl and 1blck., shooting over 40% from 3pt range and over 45% from the field, I just dont get it


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> But how can u be an above average player when your the 7th top scorer in the league, at one point in the season averaging 27ppg, 5apg, 5rpg, 1stl and 1blck., shooting over 40% from 3pt range and over 45% from the field, I just dont get it


When was this one point in the season that he put up those stats? Over a two or three game period? That's one of those BigAmare stats that are completely meaningless.


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## dork (Mar 21, 2004)

I belive he put up those stats over the second half.
Vince is great, but his vert has dropped considerably.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

When was this one point in the season that he put up those stats? Over a two or three game period? That's one of those BigAmare stats that are completely meaningless.

that one point was more like the last 40 games of the season, go figure that out


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## quick (Feb 13, 2004)

Carter isn't good because he doesn't dunk or drive much? Are you seriously that foolish?


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Don't you have to desire and come out on top in playoff seriers before you are considered one of the greats?


I haven't seen carter dominate in one aspect of the game, so I say no.


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Don't you have to desire and come out on top in playoff seriers before you are considered one of the greats?
> 
> 
> I haven't seen carter dominate in one aspect of the game, so I say no.


obviously you didnt watch the toronto/phily series VC and AI when back and forth with 40 and 50+ games and he set the record for most 3s in the first half in a playoff game (still standing right?) had he made that shot in game 7 i think that we could have beten milwakee and gone to the finals and gotten swept and everyone would thought that he was the best player in the league not 3-5 (at the time)


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> When was this one point in the season that he put up those stats? Over a two or three game period? That's one of those BigAmare stats that are completely meaningless.
> 
> that one point was more like the last 40 games of the season, go figure that out


Ummm, no. 

The stats you posted: 27ppg, 5apg, 5rpg, 1stl and 1blck., shooting over 40% from 3pt range and over 45% from the field

Vince Carter's stats Post All-Star Break: 25.2 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 4.8 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.8 bpg on 42.6% shooting and 38.7% from 3-Point range.

You got the points and the shooting way off. 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/stati...se&season=2004&seasontype=2&pos=all&split=141


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>madman</b>!
> 
> 
> obviously you didnt watch the toronto/phily series VC and AI when back and forth with 40 and 50+ games and he set the record for most 3s in the first half in a playoff game (still standing right?) had he made that shot in game 7 i think that we could have beten milwakee and gone to the finals and gotten swept and everyone would thought that he was the best player in the league not 3-5 (at the time)


I did. I saw Vince miss. I saw who went on to the finals.Obviously you missed my point.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Well still those stats look pretty darn good to me, looks like something a 'great player' would put up


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Don't you have to desire and come out on top in playoff seriers before you are considered one of the greats?
> 
> 
> I haven't seen carter dominate in one aspect of the game, so I say no.


you haven't seen VC dominate offensively? you've missed out but he'll be back next season to continue doing so.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Bottomline, Carter is right there behind Tmac and Kobe as one of the best perimeter players in the league. And I would argue he's not as far behind as many think. He's right there with Paul Pierce, Allen Iverson, and Ray Allen and I think you could argue all those guys are pretty "great". 

No he didn't dunk a lot last season but he had never been such a good playmaker or defender. His vert has dropped off a little (although if you look at his dunks from his team USA play last summer you can see he's still one of the better jumpers around) but why does no one mention that kobe's has done the same? 

Carter has a lot to prove but by no means is he uncapable of doing so at this point in his career. He might benefit greatly from a change of scenery but I think he will be given more freedom to score on a revamped Raptors team next season.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Why doesnt Kobe dunk everytime he gets the ball, he won the dunk championship too, does that make him any less a player. When you get triple teamed constantly how in the world are you going to get into the lane, if anyone has been watching the lakers or pistons series you would see how difficult it is for Kobe to get his drives


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i prefer kobe to carter for many reasons, but those who suggest that bryant is a better _creator_ than vince are (imo) fooling themselves.

kobe can create for himself, but he often seems lost when the holes plug up and he's forced to find the open man. vince has many flaws, but in terms of finding _open teammates_, he is fantastic. in that regard, i'd choose vince over t-mac, kobe and pierce almost every time. i think only iverson and lebron have similar natural gifts to create from the 2. 

in fact, that vince can create so easily may be holding back his development as a team leader. he's a frustrating player to follow when he isn't selfish enough, when he doesn't look to finish his own plays. i guess he embodies the other extreme on the kobe bryant continuum. 

peace


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ballocks</b>!
> i prefer kobe to carter for many reasons, but those who suggest that bryant is a better _creator_ than vince are (imo) fooling themselves.
> 
> kobe can create for himself, but he often seems lost when the holes plug up and he's forced to find the open man. vince has many flaws, but in terms of finding _open teammates_, he is fantastic. in that regard, i'd choose vince over t-mac, kobe and pierce almost every time. i think only iverson and lebron have similar natural gifts to create from the 2.
> ...



A lot of it is due to the lack of finding open space hismelf for a shot. 

That kid post said Vince is the best interms of finding open men, I think Vince is the best giving intangible impacts along with Iverson. James just looks for pass, Vince and Ivy passes when they are crowded by massive defense, which helps scrub to score.

Slashing in the paint and find open 3 point shotters doesnt mean you are a great creator. Shaqs, Duncans, those can create far more than just free up 3 point shooters.

Anyway, Vince will no be able to put up 30 a game because he isnt willing to put time training his kness. Vince can be a 25/5/5 at 45%fg come and season at beast.

Alvin Williams healthy, Raps even no changes will make the playoffs!


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

And besides people whining about himnot going to the rack., Vince has learned to do stop and pop jumpers here and there. Although his shots arent as consistent as Kobes and T-Macs, Vince still is one of the best shooting guards in the game. If guys think Pierce or even Ray Allen are as good, LMAO!


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## quick (Feb 13, 2004)

Like someone else was saying right after kobe and mcgrady carter isn't that far from being 3rd place of the best sg/sf.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

People just dont understand that Vince is a more matured player, you think he cares about a dunk anymore, no not really, its just 2 points to him. Unlike some notable players who care about stats and being scoring champions, VC would prefer to make his teammates better, watch raptors game and see how much difference is on the team when he's on or off the floor. The kid is only 27, sure he has had 2 injury filled seasons but is that the end of the world. All the raps need right now, is a good center and I wont be suprised if they make the playoffs next year


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