# How can you as Raptor fans be satisfied with this crap...



## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

We are .500 at best and there is no way up from here. Some say get free agents or make good trades. Here we go...

1) The best offer the Raptors can make to a free agent is the mid-level exception. So, you cannot sign a premier player with $4.5 to $5.5 million per year. Period. You can sign the Juwan Howards of the world...Yuck!!

2) You have very few tradeable commodities. Lets look at the roster contracted past this year.

Vince - Brittle yet popular star who has become too perimeter oriented. Still must have value but will not yield a superstar in return given the above.

Marshall - Solid 3rd option on a team. Only makes $5 million but is only signed thru next year. Worth: Not much on his own.

Bosh - A promising but thin PF. Way out of place at center. Probably untouchable.

Alvin - $6 million thru 2008 for a combo guard with 2 bad wheels and a big heart. Worth: Less than none. Would have to give picks to get someone to take him.

Murray - Gimme a break, $5 mill thru 2006. Wasted money. No one wanted him at the deadline and that was after his trade request.

Jalen - A nice player but his D is suspect and he earns $14 mill per thru 2007. (Arg!) Raps and Bulls traded headache for headache. He has no trade value. You would have to give up picks just to offload him if you could find someone.

Mo P - If anybody wants him this summer they can sign him and the Raps will not match. He will stay for the qualifier.


So it looks pretty bleak Raptor fans. You can't build around Vince with FAs or Trades. The pick this year will be between 9th and 14th overall which could yield a decent player but no star.


What do you do? Stay the course? No point guard. No center. No bench depth at all!!


I am inviting you to leave the dark side. Come with me where there will be hope for 50+ win seasons. 

Believe that the best thing for the future of the team is to trade Vince Carter. Not because we don't like him or because we don't believe in him, but because this is as good as the current team will ever be and his value in a trade is the key to unlocking a brighter future for the Raptors.

It is time to rebuild.


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## MadFishX (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 1) The best offer the Raptors can make to a free agent is the mid-level exception. So, you cannot sign a premier player with $4.5 to $5.5 million per year. Period. You can sign the Juwan Howards of the world...Yuck!!
> 
> ...


[strike]you're stupid[/strike]
GG said that we have 10 mil to spend in the off season.
n dun get me started on marshall, prolly the best playa on the raps(until last week). [strike]ur so dumb[/strike]


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

Rebuilding is pointless when you already got a rebuilt team.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

$10 million comes off of the payroll keeping them below the luxury tax. We still will have no cap room to spend. 

Sorry Matt sanity. I meant rebuild through the draft and a core of young players not other teams' problems and rejects like Rose, Moiso, Blount, Glover etc.


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## macro6 (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> We are .500 at best and there is no way up from here. Some say get free agents or make good trades. Here we go...
> 
> 1) The best offer the Raptors can make to a free agent is the mid-level exception. So, you cannot sign a premier player with $4.5 to $5.5 million per year. Period. You can sign the Juwan Howards of the world...Yuck!!


Again, I still believe we're a few pieces away from being good.



> 2) You have very few tradeable commodities. Lets look at the roster contracted past this year.
> 
> Vince - Brittle yet popular star who has become too perimeter oriented. Still must have value but will not yield a superstar in return given the above.
> 
> ...



Vince - Hes our superstar. The best player on this team. He is injury prone though. Next year, its make or break season, its time for Vince to step up. He'll either have a breakout season or suffer another knee injury. Everything will depend on how VC will hold up next year. We should give VC one more season to prove doubters wrong, if not, trade him for lotter picks and rebuild around BOSH.

Marshall - Hes our most consistant Raptor this year. Hes also our most valuable in terms of trade value. If we can bring in a Centre like Dampier for Marshall, i would do it in a heartbeat.

Bosh - Our future. In time his body will develope and when he does.... look out!

Alvin - Huge overpaid contract. Virtually untradable now that hes breaking down. Still has heart.

Murray - Untradeable. Buy him out or something.

Rose - We got rid of AD for Rose. Questionable defense. But hes our vocal leader on and off the court. No complaints here.

Mopete - I'd keep him for cheap. Hes valuable, though inconsistant. Our best perimeter defender.





> So it looks pretty bleak Raptor fans. You can't build around Vince with FAs or Trades. The pick this year will be between 9th and 14th overall which could yield a decent player but no star.
> 
> 
> What do you do? Stay the course? No point guard. No center. No bench depth at all!!
> ...


I think we should give this current Raptors team ONE more chance next season b4 we blow it up.


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## MadFishX (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> [strike]You are dumb Mad fish[/strike]. $10 million comes off of the payroll keeping them below the luxury tax. We still will have no cap room to spend. [strike]Ignoramous[/strike].
> 
> 
> Sorry Matt sanity. I meant rebuild through the draft and a core of young players not other teams' problems and rejects like Rose, Moiso, Blount, Glover etc.


hey mr.basketball

GG SAID THAT WE HAVE 10 MILLION TO SPEND. SPEND. SPEND.SPEND.SPEND.SPEND.
and why do u say we can';t trade marshall unless we add sumffin to the deal? cooome on


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

If the cap is about $50M for next season, Toronto will be about $5M under the cap. Giving us $5M in cap space + our MLE, which totals around $10M.

BUT, we need money to sign our first and second-round picks and to fill-out our roster, so it's not like we can blow it all on one player.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Mad Fish please do some research. Check the cap number then check our salaries. One is higher than the other. He was talking about the Luxury Tax. But I don't know if you know the difference.


You are entitled, Macro. I have waited long enough though. 

Do a Denver. Do a Memphis/Vancouver when they traded Shareef.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Sorry. The cap is more like $40 million not $50 million.

We have the MLE at the high end. Don't confuse the cap threshold with the tax threshold. As fans only concern yourself with the cap.


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## macro6 (Jul 23, 2002)

The current NBA salary cap is at $43.84 million.

Its expected that the cap will increase to 47 million? by next year


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> The current NBA salary cap is at $43.84 million.
> 
> Its expected that the cap will increase to 47 million? by next year


I am expecting it to go a little higher than that, even. But we have to wait and see.

But then again, I'm just hopeful. There is a good chance the cap will only increase slightly, to around $45M. It gets announced some time in July.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i think i agree with the above assessment- i mean, i'm not *sure* yet, but i've been leaning progressively more to the "blow it up" idea since the beginning of this season.

however, although many of the points raised above are valid, i don't think the "this is as good as the team will ever be (with vince)" assertion is fair. in fact, i think the precise argument that follows that point of view is why grunwald has been stuck on the fence for so long. 

a player like vince carter has no ceiling (imo). that is not to suggest that he will lead you to the nba title automatically (i mean, he may never again even lead this team to the _playoffs_), only to say that he CAN. players like that don't grow on trees. 

it's just that at the end of the day, the irony remains: just because he CAN doesn't necessarily mean that he WILL. the anguish we feel as fans is probably derived therein: we'll never be sure as to whether rebuilding this team would be the most rewarding alternative. you can't tell the future- and with vince, it's ever more perplexing, considering his boundless potential as a professional ballplayer. with michael curry, for example, at least you can surmise a decent _guess_ at his future; with vince, you can't even do _that_.

in the same breath, i'm starting to think that the time has indeed come to move in another direction. you'll never know what vince is gonna do- one way or the other. it's just that i think he's been given ample chance to show the world whether he's on the road to fulfilling his vast potential- and hasn't. i'm sure that he still CAN, but maybe it's time for this franchise to put on its "proactive" hat instead of waiting to involuntarily have the operation blown up in its face. 

maybe it IS time to move on, start over. personally, i think this team will never win the title as currently comprised, and think that _that_ goal should be the primary objective for any team in professional sports. 

but maybe that's the operative question: do the fans want a title here- or do they just want easy entertainment? let's face it, rebuilding would entail several years of poor basketball- can the fans take it? can the market endure? will the fans be able to watch as tracy mcgrady and (potentially) vince carter build hall-of-fame careers in other cities while all the raptors have is "promise"? maybe not. at this stage, maybe this team moves with vince- and maybe it moves OUT with vince. maybe vince is essential to the franchise's basic survival; and maybe the 35-50 wins he gives us is all we're ever gonna get- with or without him- because _without him_, maybe we don't get any wins (or losses) at all. 

the point is that _rebuilding the raptors_ should not be a choice made as a knee-jerk reaction to anything. it should be an approach taken as the result of objective analysis, patience & time, considerable research (in various areas) and third-party forecasts. 

i don't envy grunwald for having to make that decision. 

peace


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Raps have 43 million tied up in 6 players under contract for next year
Alvin
Vince
Jalen
Marsh
Bosh
Murray

So our cap room to sign FA's is pretty limited.

Now if we get Charlotte to take Murray that brings us down to 38 mill and leaves us with maybe 7-9 mill in cap space to sign an impact player or two.

Spending is a relative term. And GG is a lawyer and a corporate executive. So defining what he means by 'spending' can be tricky.

Does he include re-signing MoP in that 10 mill? Does he include paying for the number 8 through 14 men on our roster. That could be 5 to 7 mill right there.

And our draft pick will earn 1-2 mill as well.

So that would just leave the MLE to use, if that, unless Charlotte takes a salary off our hands.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Macro. Dampier is and unrestricted FA. Even if we had space as some people incorrectly suggest we do, there are several teams that are better than Toronto that will have significant cap room. So we can't sign him. 

As for someone like Dampier for Marshall in a trade, like I stated before, Marshall has only one year left and as good as he is at what he does, Dampier-like players are more rare and thus far more valuable. I.e. no chance.



Ballocks: I hear where you are coming from. I love Vince but I think he has peaked. I also don't know quite yet if GG will be the one to make the decision on the direction this franchise takes. Some will say this team was just "rebuilt" but really it was rebuilt from the point at which Damon Stoudamire was traded. Its been 6 years with one playoff win. Time for a change I think.


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> Macro. Dampier is and unrestricted FA. Even if we had space as some people incorrectly suggest we do, there are several teams that are better than Toronto that will have significant cap room. So we can't sign him.
> 
> As for someone like Dampier for Marshall in a trade, like I stated before, Marshall has only one year left and as good as he is at what he does, Dampier-like players are more rare and thus far more valuable. I.e. no chance.
> ...


the team is 9 years old 

4 ROTY
3 Playoff Appearances
1 Series Win

i think that is pretty damn good


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## macro6 (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> Macro. Dampier is and unrestricted FA. Even if we had space as some people incorrectly suggest we do, there are several teams that are better than Toronto that will have significant cap room. So we can't sign him.
> 
> As for someone like Dampier for Marshall in a trade, like I stated before, Marshall has only one year left and as good as he is at what he does, Dampier-like players are more rare and thus far more valuable. I.e. no chance.



Warriors have stated they want expiring contracts in return of Dampier. Plus, Dampier wants to play in th East. 

Marshall & Montross for Dampier  

I can only dream


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>madman</b>!
> 
> 
> the team is 9 years old
> ...



Really? You don't pay for tickets, do you? 

This team has been going down hill since Vince missed that 3 in Philly. That's 3 years of setbacks.

By the way please name the 4 ROTY and state how many are currently with the team other than Vince Carter.

Thank You


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## DAllatt (Jun 13, 2003)

Ok this thread is clearly an example of fan frustration...not logical thinking.

I'm not a huge fan of VC. But the guy is good. There just hasn't been the right pieces around him yet. If you look at any of the major stars in the NBA the ones that are on successful teams are surounded with talented players. But you look at guys like mcgrady or iverson...there is no support around them, just a great player and a bad team. 

Look this team doesn't need to be blown up, we just need depth. And we're almost there.

I've said it before. Vince can't handle being the leader, the go to guy...the man. 

Vince is a scorer. Plain and simple. Now we have a good leader in Jalen, and a star on the verge in bosh. Decent depth with AW, Strick, Mopete, currie. 

If we move donyell for an impact centre, get a decent player out of the draft this team will be at the top of the EC standings. And successful teams attract FA's. 

Screw I can't type all this anymore...I've said it all multiple times this season. The pieces are comming together. If you can't see that....well that's why you aren't GM's, just impatient fans


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DAllatt</b>!
> Ok this thread is clearly an example of fan frustration...not logical thinking.
> 
> I'm not a huge fan of VC. But the guy is good. There just hasn't been the right pieces around him yet. If you look at any of the major stars in the NBA the ones that are on successful teams are surounded with talented players. But you look at guys like mcgrady or iverson...there is no support around them, just a great player and a bad team.
> ...


Curry's about to retire.

Mo P has one year left with the raps and he will not be back after that unless he is very reasonable with his $ demands.

Strick could have been added by the team at the beginning of the season if GG had wanted, he was free.

No GM in the league will give up a center for Marshall. Think of a deal please so we can shoot it down. Yeah, Brad Miller for Marshall and Murray.  :krazy: 

Alvin is all heart and no legs.


This is not only fan frustration. If you see the pieces coming together you are halucinating. Does anyone on this team besides Bosh have significant upside? NO!! 

So they get better with FAs. Yeah! 'Cause even if we had space Kobe, Kenyon et al would have Toronto at the top of their list. Right.

All those guys you saw coming together are about to retire or about to be let go or have broken down. Really now, what evidence is there that this team is coming together?

I'm not whining about the team this year. Its been a 3-year slide folks. We've been dining off of that Philly buzzer beater miss by Vince for all this time. 

Have it your way, let the patch job continue.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

rebuilding isn't really an option with the salaries that we have. trading vince still leaves us with a ton of unwanted salaries. trading for expiring contracts does not intrigue me at all because it won't be enough in the face of our other contracts and we aren't a popular free agent destination, especially without vince. i'd like to stock up on draft picks but there is little chance any of them will turn out like vince carter or sign a good contract if they do.

we have plenty of money to spend to fill up our roster. we don't need "premier" players with jalen, yell, vince, and bosh. the type of players that KO needs aren't high profile guys. our draft pick will likely be able to contribute right away, as most of the high-potential youngsters will get snapped up in the first round.

the obvious course of action is to stay the course. see how the draft and free agency turn out and how this team plays together as the season begins. if we're truly floundering then we might want to entertain vince trades to see if we could come out with an awesome package. 

bottom line, this is an EXTREMELY difficult team to rebuild right now, i just don't see it working. should get easier as our big contracts come closer to expiry but right now i don't think it's feasible. which is why i wanted to lose the remainder of our games to earn a shot a marquee player in the lottery.


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## DAllatt (Jun 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> Curry's about to retire.
> ...


Be more angry  

this will be my last response to you until you can post a calm rational arguement...not emtional out bursts. You're smart...use it

You can criticize our roll players all you want...but you can do that to any other team in the league. that's why they are only roll players not stars. AW is a very good back up. Mopete will not demand anymore than we can pay him 2-3million max. Dion glover is also a great bench player to have on our roster. Strick is an excellent PG to tutor a young draft pick

I meant Corie, not currie...my bad.

I never said miller...don't put words in my mouth. I said an impact centre. A big body who can play defense and rebound. There are a few out there (Jerome james, Dampier, etan thomas even) Lots of teams are interested in donyell and a package of DM and moisio would be VERY attractive to some. :drool: 

We don't need kobe or kenyon we need depth and roll players. You said it yourself. 

As for players with upside...last time I checked Carter, and Rose were still decent players in this league. Maybe a little over paid. But I think they are still pretty decent  

And if you are looking for evidence of this team comming together. You have to look no further than the game against NO. If that can continue...my friend this team is onto great things.

Now I'm done with you. I'd rather go drinking with mattsanity then engage you in another power struggle. you will get nowhere on this board if you just attack everyone.


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First of all i have probably been to more raptor games then you have and yes i bought all the tickets

2 years ago year was filled with injuries they still made the playoffs and where do you think this team would be without Bosh?? I dont like watching a **** team but sometimes + come out of it. 

OK my bad there were 2 but still Damon and VC


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> This is not only fan frustration. If you see the pieces coming together you are halucinating. Does anyone on this team besides Bosh have significant upside? NO!!
> 
> Have it your way, let the patch job continue.


Are you angry at the franchise, or at people that aren't as mad as you are? You're coming-off like you want everyone here to be foaming at the mouth about this team. Not everybody feels that way.

Although my confidence in Vince is slight, I do believe that a team core of Rose-Carter-Marshall-Bosh is solid. Another good player through the draft and another good player in free agency and we are going to be significantly better next year. Plus, our boys will be more experienced playing together, and Bosh will be improved.

There are positives if you're willing to see them.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

this was a big turnaround year for the raps, losing some muscle but picking up some pretty decent players. the new players fit in fairly well but don't have the right supporting cast. this cast will be addressed as early as next year. we WILL get some new big and we WILL get some new perimeter players. 

to think that someone wouldn't get excited about a lineup like this:

Ben Gordon
VC
JR
Bosh
Adonal Foyle

with 
Marshall
AW
Bonner
Strickland
and others coming off the bench.

I realize that Foyle hasn't played much this year but that actually allows us to compete for him at a lower price. He was starting over Dampier last year and putting up good numbers- 5.5 ppg, 6 rpg, 2.5 bpg (!), in 22 mpg, at 54% from the field. i don't really know why he's dropped off this year but we may want to stay away from him, i don't really know. he's a veteran, legit big man and would probably improve our big man rotation quite a bit. 

the point is that we CAN address our needs throuh free agency and the draft. 

this team can't rebuild in the manner that phoenix is...think more chicago bulls but laden with bad contracts.


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## macro6 (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> Ben Gordon/or Chris Paul/Sabastien Telfiar
> VC
> ...


I like this lineup  

Bosh should be stronger next season and Adonal Foyle can provide tough interior defense. Donyell will come off the bench to provide a spark.  Not a bad frontcourt.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DAllatt</b>!
> Ok this thread is clearly an example of fan frustration...not logical thinking.
> 
> I'm not a huge fan of VC. But the guy is good. There just hasn't been the right pieces around him yet. If you look at any of the major stars in the NBA the ones that are on successful teams are surounded with talented players. But you look at guys like mcgrady or iverson...there is no support around them, just a great player and a bad team.
> ...


the only smart thing said in this thread that exactly how I would of said it


and for the record the team pay roll is $61,955,170

see for yourself http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/toronto.htm




yall ppl ain't real fans man


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

VC is defiantly going to stay for the rest of his career.. He's proving it to everyone right now that he is an all-star and he deserves all the hype that he has been getting ever since he got drafted.. Last 11 games hes been averaging over 28 PPG.. He's been leading this team night in and night out.. It's obvious too he is getting pretty banged up out there.. Even tonight vs one of the premier teams in the West, the raptors only lost by 9 despite having their swingman Jalen Rose ejected.. The Raps need Vince.. Anyone who cannot see that is ignorant and impatient.. Give the guy some time.. Next year we'll have some more cap space and Bosh will be a lot better.. We'll see what happens..


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> 
> 
> the only smart thing said in this thread that exactly how I would of said it
> ...


more importantly we'll be dropping down to around $45,000 this offseason. we don't have THAT much money to spend but many teams aren't looking to spend at all. we have to spend- and get some good production out of low salary guys.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

You are right. I am mad that this team does not get criticised as it should in this city. The passion for the Toronto Maple Leafs in this city is unbelievable and so is the criticism. The new GM of the Leafs was barely hired before the media ripped on him. The team has been consistently in the playoffs often going deep and has had a very high pay roll. The Raps have produced nothing and only a few people in the media call them out on it. 

I don't mean to insult anyone here because we are all Raptor fans and are here because we care. 

No more words in people's mouths. But my responses have not been irrational. Its just that fans everywhere create trade or free agent scenarios that make little sense. There are three assets on this team Bosh, Marshall and Vince. Talk of any other Raptor in a trade for reasons other than cap fodder is not relevant. 

I do want depth but not from the dreggs of the free agent market. The likes of Blount, Strickland and Glover are players that could not contribute on teams worse than the Raps and were signed out of desperation. Vince and Jalen are "pretty decent." By my count we have 4 of decent caliber. As you saw tonight a deep team has 9 or 10 in Memphis and they will win 50+.

Skywalker you are right in that it will be a difficult process to get rid of the contracts but it can be done. See Atlanta and Denver of recent years. I know it will be a process. But If you can create a talent base large enough through the draft, in time those contracts will be off the books in time to sign FAs and resign your own guys. 

I'm not going to change your minds. That's fine. But with no malice in the way I ask, if the current rate of success continues this year, do you bring GG back this offseason given that his trade record is OK but his draft record is questionable? (Bosh was the consensus #4 anyway. Vince was a great pick but there were others like Dirk and Pierce taken later) The harder choices further down were failures. The Jeffries and Bradley picks were astonishingly bad. Check yourselves on who they missed in 2001 and 2002.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

another obtainable lineup:

Rose
Vince
Iguodala
Marshall
Bosh

with
Traylor
AW
Charlie Ward
Rodney White
Bonner
and others coming off the bench

does this look like a team to give up one?


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

you know what sucks were still paying Hakeem Olajuwon & lenny willkins but alot of our guys are gonna be free agentsbetween hakeem & wilkins we will shave 7 mill off the cap after this season then throw in the free agents this team will have more than 10 mill to spend


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> another obtainable lineup:
> 
> Rose
> ...


I hope you don't plan on drafting a center in this year Weak draft better trade for one


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## macro6 (Jul 23, 2002)

Coaches dont count agasint the salary cap. 

And we dont have to pay Lenny cause' the Knicks just signed him.


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## macro6 (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> another obtainable lineup:
> 
> Rose
> ...


I dun like that lineup all.

Bosh and Donyell frontcourt? :uhoh: :uhoh:


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> another obtainable lineup:
> 
> Rose
> ...



This is what I mean. You don't have a center. You don't have a point guard. But you have a wildcat with no jumper and some more cast offs.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> this was a big turnaround year for the raps, losing some muscle but picking up some pretty decent players. the new players fit in fairly well but don't have the right supporting cast. this cast will be addressed as early as next year. we WILL get some new big and we WILL get some new perimeter players.
> 
> to think that someone wouldn't get excited about a lineup like this:
> ...



If the raps stayed the course that would be an upgrade. But beware that Foyle is as brittle as Vince and Gordon while talented is not a true point but more like Steve Francis, but some people like Francis. I do not. Gordon is a player though and we will have a shot at him. Remember that when Phx traded Marbury they also sent old Penny Hardaway as a near Max guy. That was quite a lot of youth and cap relief they got in the deal, even if the Suns sent most of it to Utah. It is not impossible.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

bosh will come off the bench next year if we get a legit center but don't draft a center is a weak draft just trade the pick plus a player for one...and heres what I don't get raptor fans when they win everything gravy but when they lose its all "fire this guy" "trade this guy talk" I understand being upset but try to be real while your at it


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> you know what sucks were still paying Hakeem Olajuwon & lenny willkins but alot of our guys are gonna be free agentsbetween hakeem & wilkins we will shave 7 mill off the cap after this season then throw in the free agents this team will have more than 10 mill to spend


wilkins doesn't count against the cap and i think hakeem came off before this year. it's montross and all the scrubs that we'll be dropping this year.

BTW, as Alvin is phased out and has more and more problems with injury, i really can't see him keeping us on the hook for his last 13 million which REALLY hurts the franchise. i'd like to see him renegotiate his contract if he does decide that he needs to keep playing.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

d


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## macro6 (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> bosh will come off the bench next year if we get a legit center


:whofarted


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jcintosun911</b>!
> VC is defiantly going to stay for the rest of his career.. He's proving it to everyone right now that he is an all-star and he deserves all the hype that he has been getting ever since he got drafted.. Last 11 games hes been averaging over 28 PPG.. He's been leading this team night in and night out.. It's obvious too he is getting pretty banged up out there.. Even tonight vs one of the premier teams in the West, the raptors only lost by 9 despite having their swingman Jalen Rose ejected.. The Raps need Vince.. Anyone who cannot see that is ignorant and impatient.. Give the guy some time.. Next year we'll have some more cap space and Bosh will be a lot better.. We'll see what happens..



Vince is not the culprit. One player does not a team make. See AI, see T-Mac. But lets be patient, Grunwald has only had six years to construct a winning team.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> 
> 
> :whofarted


its the truth just look

PG Willams
SG Rose
SF Mo Pete(Yes I think we will resign him)
PF Marshall
C _____a legit center



bosh-bench/6man


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> its the truth just look
> 
> PG Willams
> ...


Very unlikely. Marshall is made to be a 6th man.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I mean. You don't have a center. You don't have a point guard. But you have a wildcat with no jumper and some more cast offs.


Bosh is already a better center than Jeff Foster in Indiana. Bosh is going to be one of the top centers in the league next year, if we keep him starting at that position (which is fairly likely i think). He needs a bulky backup and traylor is better than anything we currently have but Etan Thomas, Mark Blount and others would be better.

Iguodala would fit in very nicely but probably does have to work on his jumper. He'd be a great defender under O'neill and we need his athleticism. He's a better prospect than Richard Jefferson than Jefferson coming into the league and should have just as large an impact. PG or not- Jalen, VC, and Iguodala is a wicked backcourt.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> its the truth just look
> 
> PG Willams
> ...


VC and Bosh not in the starting lineup? you call that the truth?


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## xpossey (Jul 20, 2003)

Believe that the best thing for the future of the team is to trade Vince Carter. Not because we don't like him or because we don't believe in him, but because this is as good as the current team will ever be and his value in a trade is the key to unlocking a brighter future for the Raptors.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU WITH TRADING VINCE THIS IS HOW GOOD CAN WE GET WITH VINCE.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Center? You must be joking. Bosh is not a center. No one in there right mind would put him at center. Even if he adds weight in the summer he will not be big yet. It takes time. Please get away from this center idea. He is there because we have only 2 tall guys.

And if you want to win now why draft another swing player. You still don't have a point guard. You have clashing philosophies.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> i'd like to see him renegotiate his contract if he does decide that he needs to keep playing.


That cant be done in the NBA


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## Slasher (Jul 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> That cant be done in the NBA


Sure it can. In the contract place that if he misses 60+ games in a season, that the team has the right to reformat the contract.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Slasher</b>!
> 
> 
> Sure it can. In the contract place that if he misses 60+ games in a season, that the team has the right to reformat the contract.



The players association would never allow that. If that was the case dont you think Grant Hill's contract would have been renegotiated by now. I will look for exact wording and post it later


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## ABC (Nov 4, 2002)

Blowtheraptors,

I agree with your post. It is ashame that so many raptors fanatics disagree with your post. The fact that many fans here are arguing with emotions rather than debate intelligently tell me that most fans are between 13-19 years old. 

Having said that, I also do believe It is time to rebuild. There are ways to go about this, such as trade vince carter. Beside Bosh, carter is the only guy on the team you can trade for without adding draft picks or another roster player. Since he came back, he's been playing very well and thus increase his trade value. 

Remember once upon a time, there was an all-star in Detroit named Jerry Stackhouse. They build the team around him, it didn't work, they kept on hyping him up, finally traded him and rebuild their team. Now detroit is not only competitve, but are a legitimate contender for the title.

I am not satisfy with just barely making the playoffs and getting swept and losing a lottery pick.


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## RapsFan (Feb 4, 2003)

Well, what if every team below us took on this philosophy of just tanking the rest of the season? Then we would stay in 9th or 10th place in the East. Not quite good odds for getting a good pick. What if we end up getting the 13th, 14th or 15th pick? Is that so much better than this team getting playoff experience and more revenue from playoff ticket sales?

Do not say that this scenario will not occur, because if tanking is in the best interest in this franchise, why would it not be for every team below us?

Also, it is sending the players on the team a message saying when things get rough, do not try to play out of it, just quit trying so we can continue to get high picks. As the Clippers have demonstrated, that has not been the best strategy. 

Yes, I think this team needs to be reconstructed. However, I know it will not happen right away. I believe we should take on the methods that Detroit has adopted. Such as getting cheaper, younger talent and not overpaying for anyone. Trade high, buy low. When players become too pricy to keep, continue the cycle. Build a team that trusts each other and will go to battle for one another. Make no one player bigger than the team. Assign every player a specific role on both offense and defense. Winning teams like Detroit, New Jersey, Memphis, San Antonio, Lakers and Sacramento do this. 

In conclusion, I would like this team to blown up to bring in players with a better attitude and will to win. However, I do not believe tanking the season to get a higher pick will magically solve everything. It will take time. New Jersey and Dallas used to be two of the crappiest teams in the league. Atlanta and the Knicks used to be good teams. Things will change. Some things will not. Hopefully the Raptors are a team that changes for the better in the future.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ABC</b>!
> Blowtheraptors,
> 
> I agree with your post. It is ashame that so many raptors fanatics disagree with your post. The fact that many fans here are arguing with emotions rather than debate intelligently tell me that most fans are between 13-19 years old.
> ...


Thank You!


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

uhh, news flash dude, NO ONE is satisfied with this team. i can bet you that everyone here is vouching for some change one way or another.

however, i'm a fan of the toronto raptors. i will cheer for them during games, and support the team when they're down. i will still watch them all season long and hope they will make a turnaround and fight for a strong push for a playoff berth.

what kind of fan would i be if i don't cheer for them? what kind of fan would i be if i wished for the raps to lose each game? what kind of fan would i be if i stopped watching their games just because they're not achieving a 45-50 win season? 

i'm not satisfied with this team. i know they can do a heck of a lot better. but i'm still gonna cheer and show my support for them.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

If you read the entire thread you will see that several people want to stay the course, add the draft pick to the current roster and fill holes with FAs using the little money we will have. 

Every offseason has been about some change with this team. This thread is about a complete overhaul.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

complete overhaul becuase...

we're not winning 60 games / season? 
our team isn't tops in all statistical categories?
you, youself, can not stand to watch games?

if we keep making changes, it'll just fluctuate our team even more and more into adapting to the changes, and *when* that doesn't work out, then we'll go on a spiraling loop for more changes until we hit the jackpot. 

i'd rather they keep en route now and fill any holes (and there aren't that many) to compensate the mistakes. to my understanding, all we really need is a PG, C, and better talent scouting. this does not merite a complete overhaul.

if you take the time and look at our core, it doesn't look too bad.
Vince
Bosh
Rose
Marshall

and with the money we're getting right, we could add some depth at the positions we're lacking, such as resigning:
Strickland
Glover
or signing a FA:
Foyle
Etan
etc.

and don't forget the draft where we can obtain some players who could really contribute right away, or our overseas players (Bonner, Maceo) that could really strengthen our team depth-wise.

we can still make the playoffs, but just because we aren't winning a championship we shouldn't have to blow up the team completely. it takes time for teams get to where they're at right now.

do you remember the mid-nineties Mavericks? 
how bout the numerous lottery picks the Grizz got because of their failed seasons?
Pistons was so mediocre while they had Grant Hill
NJ was nowhere until Kidd was signed (and even then they didn't go into a complete overhaul into getting to where they're at now)
Houston was lucky (and i mean lucky) to get a number one pick and acquire Yao in 2002. if HOU never had that pick, they'd still be eacting dirt with Francis leading the fold


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> bosh will come off the bench next year if we get a legit center but don't draft a center is a weak draft just trade the pick plus a player for one...and heres what I don't get raptor fans when they win everything gravy but when they lose its all "fire this guy" "trade this guy talk" I understand being upset but try to be real while your at it


There is no way Bosh will come off the bench next season.. If you look at all the other rookies picked in the top five(Other than Darko) they all are a starter.. Why minimize Bosh's development by getting him to come off the bench.. That would hurt our future.. I think we all care more about the future than the present.. If anything they'd trade away Marshall to get a center and keep bosh in that lineup..


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ABC</b>!
> 
> 
> Remember once upon a time, there was an all-star in Detroit named Jerry Stackhouse. They build the team around him, it didn't work, they kept on hyping him up, finally traded him and rebuild their team. Now detroit is not only competitve, but are a legitimate contender for the title.
> ...


For godsakes.. Stackhouse doesn't even relate to Carter.. Carter can score 30 points in a game without even playing close to his potential.. He's been playing great of late.. Why trade him? Get a draft pick and what not and a young star.. Who cares.. No team is gonna give up that much for him anyways since everyone says hes so injury prone.. We should just work through it.. Keep him and Bosh.. Rose and Marshall are a very nice peice of the puzzle too.. We just need a couple of other role players.. Big men who can help night in and night out.. 

You people are all too impatient.. The team struggles so you just want to go for a quick fix... Just work through it.. And wait.. I know it's been awhile since we've made the playoffs but I think the players want to get there even worst than we do.. So give them a god damn chance..


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> That cant be done in the NBA


couldn't they reach some kind of agreement for him not to take his player option and the team resign him for a lesser amount?


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

That would defeat the whole point of the salary cap, Sky.

If that could be done then every team in the league would be able to get out of their horrible contracts by making side deals.

"Void your contract and I'll make sure you get endorsement deals to cover the difference." or "We'll give you another job in the organization." 

Nope. Can't happen.

Only way it could even be possible is if they give him a 6 year extension for slightly more than the money remaining on the current deal. Then the league can't say anything about it.

So instead of 12 mill over 2 years we would pay him 2.2 mill over 6 years. Helps a little in the short term but long term holds us back a little.

Could help Alvin's tax situation as well.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Actually jcintosun, hoping to add a couple of pieces around Carter is the impatient approach. It assumes we are close to being a championship contender with the current core group.

Trading Carter is not a quick fix. It is a committment to re-building the team around a younger, more athletic core. It would mean taking a step or 2 backwards to be able to truly challenge for a title in 3-5 years.

We have VC under contract for 4 more years? So any fix you do with him on the team had better be quick. I can't see the Raps risking a 5 year max contract on VC after this contract expires.

Neither approach is THE correct one. Just two valid ways to build the club into a winner. All depends on whether you believe VC can stay healthy for 4 more years and play at least 70 games per year.

We will never know which approach would turn out better (unless we win a championship) because we can only choose one in the end. No way to tell how the other way would turn out.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> That would defeat the whole point of the salary cap, Sky.
> 
> If that could be done then every team in the league would be able to get out of their horrible contracts by making side deals.
> ...


i know players in the past have renegotiated their contracts although i don't know exactly how it works. 

the thing with alvin is his player option. if he so chooses, his contract is over and done with and would be free to resign for a new (more affordable) contract, with us or another team. if a player feels that he still wants to play for a team but doesn't want to burden said team with his current contract, there is no reason he couldn't opt out and sign a new contract. 

there may be some problems with the negotiations but if both parties were trusting of one another and both wanted this resolution, it could be obtained. ie Alvin trusts that the raptors will resign him if he opts out, and therefore opts out.

of course you can offer a player another job in the organization if his contract is over.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> the thing with alvin is his player option. if he so chooses, his contract is over and done with and would be free to resign for a new (more affordable) contract, with us or another team. if a player feels that he still wants to play for a team but doesn't want to burden said team with his current contract, there is no reason he couldn't opt out and sign a new contract.


That is the only way it could be conceivable. IF a player renounced his player option and then resigned with his team at a lesser salary but almost no agent would allow a player to do that


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

would anyone dislike Alvin (or dislike moreso) if Alvin does not opt out of his contract for the betterment of the team?


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> That is the only way it could be conceivable. IF a player renounced his player option and then resigned with his team at a lesser salary but almost no agent would allow a player to do that


if he's basically incapable of playing, i don't think it's too unreasonable. i would hate him for screwing over the franchise but i don't really think he's that kind of person. plenty of guys have taken salary cuts for the benefit of the team.


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## xpossey (Jul 20, 2003)

helllllll no!I ain't satisfied with this ****!


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

JC and Trick you are the worst kind of homers that are so loyal that you fail to see the faults of your team. 

Patience is for a youthful team that needs time to mature. Why does this team deserve patience? Where is the upside that justifies patience other than Bosh? You just keep saying be patient. But how patient do fans in this city have to be? Grunwald has had 6 years to accumulate assets. Where are they?

Look at Atlanta back with Dominique, Smith, Deke and Blaylock. They made the playoffs every year but did nothing beyond that. They retooled with Ratliff and Shareef and only now have decided to rebuild. Its been a decade for ATL. How long should we wait? What happens when this team is in the same spot next year and the year after that?

You want to fill the holes. How about Jelani McCoy? Wait no, Maceo Baston. No, Lindsay Hunter. Better yet we could use what little money we have to resign the stiffs we have.

     

We all watch the games and are all fans.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

how does one propose that we rebuild then? simply trading away our franchise player is going to solve everything? most teams jettison their big players for expiring contracts. how does this magically address our biggest problems? are we going to get a franchise center in return? how do you acquire all the talent and youth necessary to make this deal a good one? 

i'd rebuild if i thought we were in good shape to do so. i'm afraid we're not boys and girls. to strip down a team like ours it could take years. but hey, i'd love the high lottery picks we got in the mean time. i would like to acquire another young prospect or draft pick but this doesn't require destroying our team.

we already know that vince doesn't have to jump 40 inches to be a great player. right now the guy has average hops at best and still makes one of the biggest impacts in the nba.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

my point here is that you can't just say "rebuild". it's not as easy as that, nor is it as easy as making proposals. it's an EXTREMELY difficult process that most GMs struggle at mightily. there's a big difference between rebuilding and shopping your players on the open market. we're definitely not in a "must rebuild" phase in our franchise's existence. however, that doesn't mean we shouldn't look to improve ourselves.

would i entertain trades for vince carter? you bet your *** i would, were they good enough. 

for example:

VC and scrub 

for

Stro Swift (sign and trade for 6 mill)
James Posey
Troy Bell
First Round Pick

let's also pretend we could package Yell and Murray for Ricky Davis and Yogi Stewart. 

Sign Jake Tsakalidis and Stephen Jackson. 

Draft Chris Paul or Telfair. Again, let's assume the former. With the grizz pick (assume they still have it) take Ha Seung Jin.

And there you have it: A rebuilt team.

Chris Paul/Troy Bell/Strickland
James Posey/Steven Jackson
Jalen Rose/Ricky Davis
Stro Swift/Bonner
Chris Bosh/Ha Seung Jin/Tsakalidis

There you go! Depth, youth, potential and we might even make playoffs next year!!! Isn't it easy?


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

we shouldn't trade VINCE¡¡¡¡

there other option to IMPROVE NOT "REBUILD" this team

first of all we need look our weak points *PG* and *C* 

IT'S VERY dificult pick a great Center in the draft specially with the 10-15 pick the good ones come in the top 5 so our best option is pick a PG who can help us since the first year. Let's pretend we get Gordon not great passing skills but a great scorer plus we have players who can contribuite with 6+ apg 

now let's pretend we get Robert Swift with the second pick a HS project for develop .

F.A. 

we don't have a lot of money so the best scenario is sign ethan thomas and adonal foyle..

Thomas already show great rebounding skills and Foyle is a decent back up

Re-sign:

Mo.P
Rod
Arch
Glover

LINE-UP:

PG-Gordon/Alvin/Rod
SG-Vince /MO.P./Glover
SF-Rose/Donyell/Lamond
PF-Bosh/Moiso/Arch
C-Thomas/Foyle/Swift

IL-Arch/lamond

Great and deph line-up
with donyell as 6 man MO.P and Alvin coming with energy from the bench and moiso and foyle in the froncourt


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## Slasher (Jul 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> we shouldn't trade VINCE¡¡¡¡
> 
> there other option to IMPROVE NOT "REBUILD" this team
> ...


Haha you just don't want Vince traded because then your name wouldn't be so cool around the Raptors boards. :laugh:


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

> Haha you just don't want Vince traded because then your name wouldn't be so cool around the Raptors boards.


OF COURSE THAT'S ANOTHER FACTOR


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

i'm a homer because i don't think this team needs to blow up and rebuild?

yea, i know where this convo is heading...


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> we shouldn't trade VINCE¡¡¡¡
> 
> there other option to IMPROVE NOT "REBUILD" this team
> ...


Now are you sure that these players you want are naturally smart? God, does this current team have some dumb players.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

The problem with re-building is that cap space and draft picks are a crap shoot. You can't really KNOW what kind of players you will end up with. The Bulls and Clips haven't been trying to be such bad teams.


The problem with adding a couple of pieces to our current line-up is that it relies so heavily on the health of Vince Carter, which is a very risky foundation to build on. 

And while Vince has shown us what he is capable of in the last week or so, you have to wonder where this passion and leadership were in November, December, and January when our team began its freefall. Just like last game where VC scored 20 points in the last 15 minutes, but waited until the Grizz had dominated the 2nd and 3rd quarters and built a 21 point lead to turn it on.


I favour re-building by moving VC to Charlotte for their #4 pick.

That clears up about 15 mill in cap space and gives us the #4 and #7-10 pick.

Becomes possible to sign a Dampier and Stephen Jackson, while drafting both a C and PG.

Bring in Bonner to work with Marshall and see what he has.

PG: Alvin, #8 pick
SG: Rose, Mason Jr
SF: SJackson, Murray
PF: Bosh, Marshall, Bonner
C: Dampier, #4 pick, Moiso

That gives us 1 young guy and 1 Vet at every position. Team has balance, and can hold it together during an injury or two.

Marshall walks after next season. Rose in 3 seasons. Allows us to re-sign all our young talent and build around that core for a championship run. Bosh should be an all-star and one of our lotto picks should become an all-star level talent.

I just don't want to gamble our next 4 seasons on the health of VC when he has some serious knee problems.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> The problem with re-building is that cap space and draft picks are a crap shoot. You can't really KNOW what kind of players you will end up with. The Bulls and Clips haven't been trying to be such bad teams.
> 
> 
> ...






See now here at least someone is thinking. I really don't like making up trades because we are not GMs and don't know what other GMs are looking for. Although I do have my own thoughts about possible trades that appeal to all parties.

Remember that the Clips are owned by a cheapskate and that most NBA players shunned the Bulls because of the way Jerry Krause treated MJ and Pippen. Krause believed that GMs not player win championships. That is why they could not get any FAs of substance.

So while they are examples of rebuilding flops, I tend to want to lean toward Denver. They got rid of all their big contracts for expiring ones and picks. They have drafted OK but their rep as a good organisation + caproom has landed them Andre Miller and will land them another great FA this year to go with he and Melo.

It is not impossible to move big contracts just look back at the Marbury deal. 

Remember that once you decide to really rebuild, it should take time. You should be at the bottom of the league for at least 2-3 years to have a shot at the top 3 picks each year.

Unfortunately, we could not build proberly the first go around because of all the restrictions the NBA put on us and a CBA that let Rookies leave unrestricted after only 3 years. Now you have them locked for 5 if you like them.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> my point here is that you can't just say "rebuild". it's not as easy as that, nor is it as easy as making proposals. it's an EXTREMELY difficult process that most GMs struggle at mightily. there's a big difference between rebuilding and shopping your players on the open market. we're definitely not in a "must rebuild" phase in our franchise's existence. however, that doesn't mean we shouldn't look to improve ourselves.
> 
> would i entertain trades for vince carter? you bet your *** i would, were they good enough.
> ...




Get real. Why would at team like the Grizz mess with what they have. Be realistic.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Seriously though, for those of you that want this team to make the 8th spot, why are you hoping for such a thing?

I mean we are all fans here, but what do you have to gain from doing such a thing? You know you will just get smoked in 4 or 5 by Indy or Detroit, right?

I guess there are two types of fans. Those that see what's right in front of their face and cheer it always. And then there is the fan that loves his team but realises that the true goal is unattainable now but might be in the future, so he roots for taking the strategy that will allow that furure vision to come to fruition.


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## Bigballershotcaller (Apr 25, 2003)

Vince Carter will not be traded,I repeat Vince Carter will not be traded he is one of the only reasons people even show up to the game


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## Goku (Aug 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> Seriously though, for those of you that want this team to make the 8th spot, why are you hoping for such a thing?
> 
> I mean we are all fans here, but what do you have to gain from doing such a thing? You know you will just get smoked in 4 or 5 by Indy or Detroit, right?
> ...


Indy is beatable without Jermaine. Does anyone know how long he is gone? 

But lotto is where its at. 15th pick looks ok, but there is so much better out there. Maybe a Marshall trade could move us up if we do get into the playoffs (which would still suck even if we upset Indy. Just my opinion)


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> Seriously though, for those of you that want this team to make the 8th spot, why are you hoping for such a thing?
> 
> I mean we are all fans here, but what do you have to gain from doing such a thing? You know you will just get smoked in 4 or 5 by Indy or Detroit, right?
> ...


:sigh:, there really is no getting through to you.


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## RapsFan (Feb 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> Seriously though, for those of you that want this team to make the 8th spot, why are you hoping for such a thing?
> 
> I mean we are all fans here, but what do you have to gain from doing such a thing? You know you will just get smoked in 4 or 5 by Indy or Detroit, right?
> ...


Just because we finish in the range of 7-10 for the lottery does not mean we will have a pick there. What if the lottery works out that we end up getting the 13th or 14th pick anyways? Then we would be almost in the same situation as if we went to the playoffs. I do not think we will get totally blown out by Indiana or Detroit. We may not win, but we have shown we can battle with these teams pretty well. 

I just do not think it is a good message to send to players to just tank seasons in order to get high draft picks. How many lottery picks have the Clippers had and look where they are? They are owned by a cheapskate, but so are we. MLSE is not exactly a free spender. Especially when it comes to the Raptors. 

Plus, we will get playoff experience and revenue. Also, we will still keep our pick since if we do make the playoffs it will be as the 8th seed which is still in the bottom 18 of the league. 

I want the players to have an attitude to want to win every game. Not just give up midway through because it will help get lottery balls come June.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Go check where the Raps are in Pay Roll. They are anything but cheapskates. Over 60 million bucks. Several teams spend millions less and make the playoffs and will compete at the top level.

There is no getting through to you. How many years would you like to be mediocre?

Playoff experience? Here we go..."Hey it was a good experience to get killed in four games. I really learned that we need better players and that Vince is all alone out there. I learned that I should hit my shots instead of miss them. I also learned that I need to increase my lateral quickness so I can play defense better. I also learned that I need to penetrate more and grow a few inches taller."

Playoff experience is for young teams. Hello. Anybody home? Jalen Rose needs playoff experience? Yeah. How 'bout VC. Yeah. 

Where do you guys get this? Oh wait these are the guys that want to re-sign Dion Glover and Corie Blount because they will give us a deep bench.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :hurl:


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

8th in spending out of 29. 

Penny-pinchers.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RapsFan</b>!
> I just do not think it is a good message to send to players to just tank seasons in order to get high draft picks. How many lottery picks have the Clippers had and look where they are? They are owned by a cheapskate, but so are we. MLSE is not exactly a free spender. Especially when it comes to the Raptors.
> 
> Plus, we will get playoff experience and revenue. Also, we will still keep our pick since if we do make the playoffs it will be as the 8th seed which is still in the bottom 18 of the league.
> ...


exactly.

by some ppl's mentality, what's the point of teams battling it out for the final playoff seed? they're not gonna make a big noise come playoff time (Cleveland, Miami, Nuggets, Houston), so what's the point of fighting for a playoff push that would exclude them from having a lotto pick?

how about teams outside the current bracket (Boston, Philadephis, Utah, Portland, etc.)? what would they gain by just making it into the playoffs? wouldn't they get deeper if they just tank right now and lose every game?

how would it look to the majority of the fans (mostly non-hardcore ones) if this team tanks just because we don't get homecourt advantage?

it's all about the identity a team gives throughout the league that they'll do anything to win. we wouldn't look good to other FA's that we'd want to come here if all we're doing is tanking seasons just for draft picks that would land us a couple of spots up top abd that aren't really insured to bring success to a team. 

whatever happened to being committed into doing something and staying committed?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> Go check where the Raps are in Pay Roll. They are anything but cheapskates. Over 60 million bucks. Several teams spend millions less and make the playoffs and will compete at the top level.
> 
> There is no getting through to you. How many years would you like to be mediocre?
> ...


2 years ago we were the 7th seed facing DET in the first round. 

how many games did we take them into? 

more importantly, how much of a threat did we pose upon them despite us being a 7th seed?

in the 5th game we were only down by 3 but unfortunately Childs chuck up a meaningless 3 pointer that because he thought we were down by 4.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries.htm
> 
> 8th in spending out of 29.
> ...


we're not paying full salaries on Montross and Hakeem.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> Where do you guys get this? Oh wait these are the guys that want to re-sign Dion Glover and Corie Blount because they will give us a deep bench.



ok wise guy, if Dion Glover and Corie Blount don't make a bench deeper on your team, then who are your ideal candidates (realistic ones) that could deepen our team?


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## Goku (Aug 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> it's all about the identity a team gives throughout the league that they'll do anything to win. we wouldn't look good to other FA's that we'd want to come here if all we're doing is tanking seasons just for draft picks that would land us a couple of spots up top abd that aren't really insured to bring success to a team.
> ?


nobody expects us to just give up, and start playing our scrubs, and have the league investigate and probably reprimand us, and have fans go crazy and players resent us. 

The 'haters' or whatever just want some hard-fought losses for the good of our future (which doesn't look bright to me personally. I don't see Etan Thomas vaulting us into the elite)


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

A) You get deep with time the way memphis has. Be bad, bad for a while.

B) Houston, Memphis, Denver, and Cleveland WILL benefit from a playoff spot because they have accumulated a young core with no playoff experience. Yao, Franchise and Mobley, all of Memphis, all of Denver and Lebron and the core group in Cleveland have never been in the playoffs. Save for Bosh, the Raps are old, and have been in the playoffs with varying degrees of success. The playoff experience argument has no weight. I'm sorry. It's a cliche that has been applied incorrectly here. It was valid back when we played the Knicks for the first time still with T-Mac.

C) As for not paying Montross and Hakeem, that is true. However because they have been over the cap how could they add salary? As it is they are at or over the luxury tax. Those that go over the tax, well, pay the tax. But more important, they do not get a split of the tax payout. All teams that don't pay the tax get an equal share of the gravy that NY and portland and the likes have been paying for years. That's MLSE losing on millions in revenue + added costs.


Please for all of you out there. I am not a Vince Basher. In fact quite the opposite. It is that he is alone out there for the most part that I hold these views. Bosh will be great. One day. Not now. 

The impact makers you hope for through free agency are a pipe-dream. Forget about the Dampier's of the world. He makes 8 million this year and is looking for a raise. We could not afford him even if he want to come.

And I am not advocating playing our scrubs. I would suggest that with the full complement of players currently on the roster, they will miss out on their own. Check the sked. Roger Mason Jr need not apply.


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## RapsFan (Feb 4, 2003)

Okay, well you have the players tank and get high draft picks who will leave after their rookie contract so they can go to a winner. We will have a team salary of 30 million and make lots of revenue since casual fans will continue to go to games so they can cheer for us to lose. 

I can hear the fans now....

"Vince! Why did you make that game winnign shot?!! Don't you know we are losing lottery balls every game we win?!!"

"Yes! Another loss!! I just love watching this team play to lose since we are guarenteed a high draft pick at the end of the year!"

"Boo! What are you guys playing defense for? You're stopping the other team from scoring."

And Kevin O'Neill

"Okay guys, we're in this game. This is not where we want to be. Now stop playing well and play like the losers you and I both know we are."

"We're down by 1 and this is our last possession. Here is the play. CB you are going to make the inbounds pass. The rest of you just pretend to run around with some purpose. CB while you pretend to be looking for someone to pass to, make it seem like the ball is to heavy for you to pass to one of us and let them intercept it. Okay on 3...1,2, 3...lottery!!"

And potential free agents

"I'm between two teams right now. The favourite is Toronto because they have such a young, athletic team and they are always in contention for the top lottery pick. It's going to be great hanging out with only players age 18-23. No old guys to ruin our fun."


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> A) You get deep with time the way memphis has. Be bad, bad for a while.


it took MEM 9 years to get to where they're at. not only that, but it also cost them a franchise home in the process as well.



> B) Houston, Memphis, Denver, and Cleveland WILL benefit from a playoff spot because they have accumulated a young core with no playoff experience. Yao, Franchise and Mobley, all of Memphis, all of Denver and Lebron and the core group in Cleveland have never been in the playoffs. Save for Bosh, the Raps are old, and have been in the playoffs with varying degrees of success. The playoff experience argument has no weight. I'm sorry. It's a cliche that has been applied incorrectly here. It was valid back when we played the Knicks for the first time still with T-Mac.


playoff experience give the mentality of what it takes to win in games for a team. not only that, but it gives us fans the pleasure of watching high-heated, 'win or die trying' attitude from the players as well, which is much needed for Bosh.

and we're not as old as you think, our oldest players are Strickland, Curry and Blount. a huge dropoff comes to Marshall and Rose at 30. that's 3 35+ yr old players, 2 30 yr old players, and 10 below 30 players.



> C) As for not paying Montross and Hakeem, that is true. However because they have been over the cap how could they add salary? As it is they are at or over the luxury tax. Those that go over the tax, well, pay the tax. But more important, they do not get a split of the tax payout. All teams that don't pay the tax get an equal share of the gravy that NY and portland and the likes have been paying for years. That's MLSE losing on millions in revenue + added costs.


i believe insurance deal with the added salary on Montross and Hakeem, which equal to 10 mil in itself. 



> Please for all of you out there. I am not a Vince Basher. In fact quite the opposite. It is that he is alone out there for the most part that I hold these views. Bosh will be great. One day. Not now.
> 
> The impact makers you hope for through free agency are a pipe-dream. Forget about the Dampier's of the world. He makes 8 million this year and is looking for a raise. We could not afford him even if he want to come.


and please, for all of _you_ out there, just because we're committed on a team and do not want to rebuild does not make us homers, or ignorant.

that's the point i (and others included) are trying to get.

once again, NO ONE is satisfied with this team but just because we have different views of changes does not make another person less ignorant or knowledgeable in a sense.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RapsFan</b>!
> Okay, well you have the players tank and get high draft picks who will leave after their rookie contract so they can go to a winner. We will have a team salary of 30 million and make lots of revenue since casual fans will continue to go to games so they can cheer for us to lose.
> 
> I can hear the fans now....
> ...


exactly.
just look at the sad state in ATL for example...


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

The players don't need to tank the games to lose. They are already losing. Are you paying attention? They are trying to win and can't. I am rooting against them, they are not trying to tank. 

Please go over the Memphis roster and tell me how many of them are from the original Stu Jackson years? Come on you can count to ZERO. The rebuilding there has been since just before Jerry West came aboard. 

The fans in this city go to see Vince huh. OK. I agree somewhat. But if you have not noticed there are a lot of empty seats this year where there were not before. Vince is still here. But the wins have decreased in number. And its only going to get worse if things don't change. 

Would fans not be excited to see a handful of young players added to the team to grow with Bosh?

If you can't sell wins you gotta sell hope.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> i believe insurance deal with the added salary on Montross and Hakeem, which equal to 10 mil in itself.


What does that mean? Just because you have insurance it does not mean your cap situation changes. It just means MLSE does not pay the cheques.


And this is NBA guys not NHL. When was the last time a 7 or 8 seed beat a 1 or 2? Its even tougher now because you have to win best of 7.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> And potential free agents
> 
> "I'm between two teams right now. The favourite is Toronto because they have such a young, athletic team and they are always in contention for the top lottery pick. It's going to be great hanging out with only players age 18-23. No old guys to ruin our fun."


So why did that old fart Andre Miller want to go to Denver? Why did that greybeard Corey Maggette sign an offer sheet with Utah (with no Mailman or Stockton)? And why would that old Lamar Odom sign with that championship caliber Miami Heat.

The answer: They are young stars who wanted to get paid and wanted to add themselves to a young core. 

You are all blind.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> The players don't need to tank the games to lose. They are already losing. Are you paying attention? They are trying to win and can't. I am rooting against them, they are not trying to tank.
> 
> Please go over the Memphis roster and tell me how many of them are from the original Stu Jackson years? Come on you can count to ZERO. The rebuilding there has been since just before Jerry West came aboard.
> ...


the only players that aren't from the Stu Jackson days are Dahntay Jones, Troy Bell, and Mike Miller. everyone else was from the Stu Jackson days.

and we're still top 10 in attendance. we're not as sold as we used to be but we're still packed on most nights. not sellouts-wise but close-to-sellouts wise.

and there is hope, even if you don't like to see it or not. i see hope in that if we get a real C, we'll be that much tougher. if we can get a staring PG, we'll be that much smoother.

and how many times do i have to say it:


> Originally posted by *trick*!
> once again, NO ONE is satisfied with this team but just because we have different views of changes does not make another person less ignorant or knowledgeable in a sense.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> So why did that old fart Andre Miller want to go to Denver? Why did that greybeard Corey Maggette sign an offer sheet with Utah (with no Mailman or Stockton)? And why would that old Lamar Odom sign with that championship caliber Miami Heat.
> ...


no, it was all about M O N E Y.

i think you're the one that's blind.


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## RapsFan (Feb 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> So why did that old fart Andre Miller want to go to Denver? Why did that greybeard Corey Maggette sign an offer sheet with Utah (with no Mailman or Stockton)? And why would that old Lamar Odom sign with that championship caliber Miami Heat.
> ...


Miller went to Denver because he was being ridiculed in LA and wanted to get out. Out of the teams that were interested in him, Denver could give him the most money with their cap space. Enabled him to still be a starter. Plus, he had already played for crappy teams in Cleveland so he might have as well continued the losing team trend. 

Maggette signed the offer sheet because Sloan is still a very respected coach even without Mailman and Stockton. It also guarenteed him money. If Clippers declined, he gets payed by Utah, if Clippers accept, he gets paid by them. A win-win situation. He would be a starter and main contributor on either team. 

Pat Riley said from the beginning that he wanted Odom on Miami. A lot of GM's questioned his character and health. Having the coach's/gm's full confidence is a good motivator to sign with the team. Plus, the money they offered him didn't hurt.


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## RapsFan (Feb 4, 2003)

Oh, and we'll see how long Memphis can keep their depth when attendance isn't spectacular and like you said there are not many upsets in the NBA so it will be hard for Memphis to beat on of the Western Conference powerhouses to advance to the second round. 

We'll see if they can hang on to Swift or are able to pick up Bonzi's team option for 8,000,000 next year. Or the year after that with Gasol and Battier free agents. Then they will have to overpay to keep them and get into cap problems. Like we did to keep Vince around.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RapsFan</b>!
> Oh, and we'll see how long Memphis can keep their depth when attendance isn't spectacular and like you said there are not many upsets in the NBA so it will be hard for Memphis to beat on of the Western Conference powerhouses to advance to the second round.
> 
> We'll see if they can hang on to Swift or are able to pick up Bonzi's team option for 8,000,000 next year. Or the year after that with Gasol and Battier free agents. Then they will have to overpay to keep them and get into cap problems. Like we did to keep Vince around.


don't forget the expansion draft with the Bobcats


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> the only players that aren't from the Stu Jackson days are Dahntay Jones, Troy Bell, and Mike Miller. everyone else was from the Stu Jackson days.
> ...



Nope. Jackson was out in May of 2000.

Don't get me wrong we support or team at the gate more than they deserve relative to their performance. Especially when you consider what other teams draw like Atlanta. But things have declined. We were top 2 or 3 behind only Lakers and Knicks for sellouts. Those days are gone 

You have identified the holes but as I have said before. You cannot really address them. Everything we have added over the past few seasons in free agency have been stop gap solutions and that will not change this year.

If these guys we signed were really good would they have been free to sign with us as they were during the season. Wouldn't they be sought by San Antonio who had big money to spend? I mean you can't play for Chicago or Atlanta... but you can play for Toronto?


Identify a center and point guard who you think would want to come to this team. Are they another stop gap or are they a real contributor? Be discerning but simultaneously, be realistic.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> don't forget the expansion draft with the Bobcats


Yes isn't it a nice problem to have? They have to find a way to protect as many as possible. How many would you protect on the Raps. I would Beg Charlotte to take everyone but VC, Bosh and Marshall. Everyone else is overpaid, underproductive or hurt. 

They can match any offer on Swift. Besides anyone who would offer stupid money for him would try for others first. He is not a focal point but rather a good building block.

Bonzi loves it there. He credits Jerry West and Hubie for his turn around.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Nope. Jackson was out in May of 2000.


Jackson's last move was trading for Gasol during the draft. so everything before hand was Jackson's transactions.



> Don't get me wrong we support or team at the gate more than they deserve relative to their performance. Especially when you consider what other teams draw like Atlanta. But things have declined. We were top 2 or 3 behind only Lakers and Knicks for sellouts. Those days are gone


the ACC houses 19,800...ok, i'm willing to bet we're around the 17-18 thousand range, and that's still pretty good considering winning teams with lower attendance rates than us.



> You have identified the holes but as I have said before. You cannot really address them. Everything we have added over the past few seasons in free agency have been stop gap solutions and that will not change this year.


the difference between this offseason and last offseason was that we didn't have the money to spend. now we do have the money to get effective roleplayers that could really help us out.



> If these guys we signed were really good would they have been free to sign with us as they were during the season. Wouldn't they be sought by San Antonio who had big money to spend? I mean you can't play for Chicago or Atlanta... but you can play for Toronto?


last season's acquisistions consisted of Moiso, Palacio and Mengkee. all 3 are not being paid over 2 mil. what were you expecting?



> Identify a center and point guard who you think would want to come to this team. Are they another stop gap or are they a real contributor? Be discerning but simultaneously, be realistic.


PG: Hudson, Dooling, Watson, Knight. 
C: Foyle, Thomas, Blount


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## ABC (Nov 4, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jcintosun911</b>!
> 
> 
> For godsakes.. Stackhouse doesn't even relate to Carter.. Carter can score 30 points in a game without even playing close to his potential.. He's been playing great of late.. Why trade him? Get a draft pick and what not and a young star.. Who cares.. No team is gonna give up that much for him anyways since everyone says hes so injury prone.. We should just work through it.. Keep him and Bosh.. Rose and Marshall are a very nice peice of the puzzle too.. We just need a couple of other role players.. Big men who can help night in and night out..
> ...


They have, and it's not working. What if you can score 30 ppg? Is your team winning and are you making other players play better?

He can avg 40 ppg for all I care, but if the team don't win you gotta really think about blowing the whole thing up


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ABC</b>!
> 
> 
> They have, and it's not working. What if you can score 30 ppg? Is your team winning and are you making other players play better?
> ...


Yup!:greatjob:


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

i just don't believe that we're in at "must blow up" point in our history. losing and acquiring lottery picks? we're already there and should be ready to rebound. this is a team that should be tinkered with, not necessarily destroyed. 

take a look at the other teams in our division. new york looks like the strongest and they're struggling mightily. another trip to the lottery and we should have the jump on them, ready to win our division.

one tempting issue in a minor "blow up" is a return to the lottery next season, stiffing cleveland on our pick again. i really don't want to give that pick up but if we're good enough to win our division then we'll stiff them anyways.

take a look at our team after the draft and free agency and see if we still need to blow it up. we are NOT a team on the decline, relative to our division. however, it is the young teams in the east that worry me. speaking of which, i think the bucks really would have benefitted from another lottery pick. i also don't think ainge was planning on competing for the playoffs, he actually stated that a high lottery pick would be better for the health of the franchise. 

we already blew up our team this year, to some extent. if we're going to be competing for home court advantage next year with bosh and another stud from the lottery....where is the incentive to blow it up and start again?


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> i just don't believe that we're in at "must blow up" point in our history. losing and acquiring lottery picks? we're already there and should be ready to rebound. this is a team that should be tinkered with, not necessarily destroyed.
> 
> take a look at the other teams in our division. new york looks like the strongest and they're struggling mightily. another trip to the lottery and we should have the jump on them, ready to win our division.
> ...


If you wait past those points you have to wait another year to blow it up. By Blow it up i don't mean another big trade - your headache for my headache as with Jalen for AD, I mean wipe the slate clean and build through the draft. Use what assets you have to get several picks. As ABC said, it does not seem to matter how good VC is we just lose.

If this is your opinion on the Raps then I assume were you a sixer or magic fan, you would not trade AI or T-mac to start over again either. Believe me, those teams will be thinking about it long and hard this summer. The situations are nearly parallel.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> Jackson's last move was trading for Gasol during the draft. so everything before hand was Jackson's transactions.
> ...


Foyle is more injury prone than VC. Dooling, Watson and Knight are fringe NBAers. Which Thomas? Kurt? just re-upped with NY. Blount sux. More patch jobs.

The only one I like there is Troy Hudson but I would suggest he would cost our entire MLE.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> If you wait past those points you have to wait another year to blow it up. By Blow it up i don't mean another big trade - your headache for my headache as with Jalen for AD, I mean wipe the slate clean and build through the draft. Use what assets you have to get several picks. As ABC said, it does not seem to matter how good VC is we just lose.
> ...


to the contrary, we have a pretty respectable win record with Vince Carter, despite the weak supporting casts he has been forced to play with (due largely to our success with him in the lineup IMO). 

i truly believe that our lineup next season will be the raptors' strongest to date. it will also have the biggest upside (assuming our current knowledge that tmac would leave). 

"wiping the slate clean" requires inducing other teams to take our contracts off of us. carter is the exception of course but you need to take ogive UP draft picks and young prospects to get other teams to n players like AW, Rose, and Murray. 

i've already stated that you make a trade if a sweet deal comes along. that's the way it works. if trading VC gives us the potential to vault to the top of the eastern conference, then go ahead and do it. whether that means going with a full on youth movement or not, who knows?

the same goes for Tmac and AI. however, i think both teams, like ours, have the opportunity to rebuild through the draft. it really does depend on the team though. is grant hill's contract coming off the books (has it been 2 years since he has played) or might he make a comeback? Philly is ****ed with their salary situation so they might be forced to make a move. Orlando is in the same boat as us, they are just a lot worse and will probably be getting a higher pick. we have a lot of roster space to fill. that makes superstar trading (ie 1 for 3 players) attractive.

seriously though, with the atlantic division composed of the nets, knicks, sixers, and celtics and the hornets being replaced by the bobcats, i am very excited about this team headed into the 2004/05 season.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> Foyle is more injury prone than VC. Dooling, Watson and Knight are fringe NBAers. Which Thomas? Kurt? just re-upped with NY. Blount sux. More patch jobs.
> ...


as for Foyle, if he can become more healthier (much like what VC has done this season) he can really help Bosh out, especially with his big frame. plus, he doesn't have to over-exert himself. play around 25-30 mpg shoudn't be too much to ask for.

Keyon Dooling will in fact walk, and can still provide much to the team as McInnis is doing for the Cleveland Cavaliers.

Watson is a gem and if you can't see the talent before him, then i question your knowledge of the game.

Knight, though injury prone, is a very serviceable backup to commend a drafted PG (assuming we do go after one). 

Thomas, as in Etan Thomas, would be of great support to Bosh, considering everyone just overpowers him. he fits into the big bruiser type of players i'd like to have next season.

Blount, as in Mark Blount, is having a career year and doesn't look like he'd like to stay in BOS. heck, even Corie Blount is a good big to come off the bench. he provides some offense with his jumpers, as well as a good rebounder considering the minutes he gets.

if these guy don't peak your interest to have on a team for deepness purposes, i really question your NBA knowledge.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Watson is Ok if he's your 9th guy. Mark... Blount is having a career year yes, also his contract year. Just like Dampier. 

They are good depth guys (not Dampier, he's a starter). Watson makes Memphis deeper. Mark would command most or all of our exception.

I accept your premise that these are good depth players, but by definition, their best role is off the bench or pinching in for injuries, but we still would not have starter at either C or PG.

You see thats why I start this thread. How can a capped out team add a center that it needs, a better than decent PG and the depth you outlined.

I too like Etan, but I submit that he too is a depth player.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

with a core like:
VC
Rose
Marshall
Bosh
all you really need is role players to compiment them, and it is possible seeing as how we can draft a PG and a C, and afford to bring over a couple of free agents, ideally Foyle and Knight, as well as resign Strickland, Mo Pete and Glover to small contracts.

it is possible, and realistic, and would make this team that much better next season.


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## Slasher (Jul 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> with a core like:
> VC
> Rose
> ...


All the role players we get KO ruins their careers. Why isn't Glover playing at least 10-15 MPG???? KO is terrible............


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Slasher</b>!
> 
> 
> All the role players we get KO ruins their careers. Why isn't Glover playing at least 10-15 MPG???? KO is terrible............


yea, my only knack with KO is his substitution patterns. but players i've listed are ones that work hard with their minutes so i'm guessing KO would not find it difficult to give them PT and a role.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> with a core like:
> VC
> Rose
> ...



Wow. OK. Good luck to you. You are putting your confidence in league castoffs. You are just continuing with the patch job but God bless your loyalty. I can't say I agree with anything you say.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Any trade for VC will not bring instant returns. Period.

If you build through the draft these days, you need to have more than one pick per year because the guys coming out will take a while. Darko, Curry and others take years. This is why you can't build around AI, TMAC of VC this way. It will take years until they are in their prime. Vince will be over 30 by then. At least if you trade vince for a bunch of picks you can form a group that can grow together.


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