# Drafting a Center



## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

Unless there is a SF in the draft that is really knocking Pritchard's socks off, I think the blazers will be looking to draft a center in this years draft. Joel is injury prone, Magloire probably won't be re-signed and Lamarcus is going to need some help. Some would argue that he is a Power Forward playing out of position. The blazers had to bring in Luke Schinser (sp) this year even with Mags playing. Without Mags the situation gets worse. I'm thinking the blazers will draft a big and trade for a SF. With that in mind, which of the center prospects will best fit our needs?
Let's leave Oden out of the picture for discussion purposes. He would be the obvious choice if we got the 1st pick, which we probably won't. The other prospects are:

Roy Hibbert
Hasheem Thabeet
Spencer Hawes
Joakim Noah... a PF that might be able to play some center in a pinch.
Yi Jianlian... same as Noah in an even more serious pinch.
Brandon Wright... I'm assuming he will be gone by the time the blazers pick.

What say You?


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

I hear you about the need for help at the center position, but I'm still on the "take the best player available" bandwagon. Players can be added any number of ways and if Aldridge starts at center next year, that's already one position where the Blazers are better than more than half the rest of the league. Given that Randolph can play center in a small line-up, that the team's likely to get at least something from Pryzbilla and/or LaFrentz next year, and that guys like Hamilton can be found relatively easily, it just doesn't seem that urgent to me -- or at least not as urgent as getting the best talent they can out of the draft.


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

Thabeet is too far from actually contributing, Hibbert is a nice offensive player in a half court game but he's not a very uptempo defensive guy. Outside of Oden, Noah would be the best option for center. High energy, long, athletic, great ball handler, great passer, high IQ, defensive guy who causes havoc to the opposition. Oden would obviously be the #1 option, but after that I think Noah fits the bill best. Only concern you'd have think about with Noah is his ability or lack of to put on weight due to his narrow shoulders. Wright is a PF, at 6-9. Hawes is a nice offensive player, but we can only have so many offensive options on the floor. Jianlian is the same, but a very interesting prospect, in the vein of Bargnani. Still, this team needs a defensive force at center with high IQ, Noah fits that. You might look at Horford but that would cause Aldridge to play the center position since Horford is listed at 6-9. 

Reason I see us going after a big man is because Zach won't fetch us a big man, but I'm sure he'll get us a small forward. So get your big man now, and get your 3 by trading Zach.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

It seems hugely unlikely because the whole league saw what happened last year, but maybe Pritchard will manage two picks again. The same kind of logic works -- there aren't a lot of great PGs in this draft and arguably the Blazers could part with one. Maybe Danny'd be ready to swap LaFrentz and Jack for Ratliff, Telfair, and their pick?



More seriously though, if they could somehow land both another big and a wing player in the draft, it'd be a mighty young team but awfully interesting, too. And yeah, Sambonius, while there are certainly players I'd take ahead of Noah, it does seem like he'd be a decent fit on this team in terms of skill set -- something like a larger version of Roy, minus some of the offensive skills.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

graybeard said:


> Unless there is a SF in the draft that is really knocking Pritchard's socks off, I think the blazers will be looking to draft a center in this years draft. Joel is injury prone, Magloire probably won't be re-signed and Lamarcus is going to need some help. Some would argue that he is a Power Forward playing out of position. The blazers had to bring in Luke Schinser (sp) this year even with Mags playing. Without Mags the situation gets worse. I'm thinking the blazers will draft a big and trade for a SF. With that in mind, which of the center prospects will best fit our needs?
> Let's leave Oden out of the picture for discussion purposes. He would be the obvious choice if we got the 1st pick, which we probably won't. The other prospects are:
> 
> Roy Hibbert
> ...


I think Thabeet is flat out horrible. He's a bust.
Hawes is a probable bust in my opinion, due to lack of athleticism.
Noah is a PF/SF, not a center.
Jianlian is a SF, not a center.
Brandan Wright would be nice. Horford would be nice as well. But neither are true centers. 

Hibbert would be my selection if we do go for true center.


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## SheedSoNasty (Dec 31, 2002)

If we draft Joakim Noah, I will hurt somebody.

Hibbert wouldn't be a bad selection. In fact, he's compared to Joel Przybilla in his nbadraft.net profile.


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## Samuel (Jan 1, 2003)

PorterIn2004 said:


> I hear you about the need for help at the center position, but I'm still on the "take the best player available" bandwagon. Players can be added any number of ways and if Aldridge starts at center next year, that's already one position where the Blazers are better than more than half the rest of the league. Given that Randolph can play center in a small line-up, that the team's likely to get at least something from Pryzbilla and/or LaFrentz next year, and that guys like Hamilton can be found relatively easily, it just doesn't seem that urgent to me -- or at least not as urgent as getting the best talent they can out of the draft.


Although I usually agree with the "BPA... Always" strategy, I think one can make a slight exception with centers. The fact of the matter is, acquiring guys that size through trades and free agency sucks because they are almost always high-priced AND mediocre (IE teams that have good centers only let them get away if you're giving up arms/legs for them). Also it's tough to know if you're getting a stud or a dud. This is why Seattle has been drafting bigs and keeping them in low cost storage so that they don't have to pay a premium for them down the road.

The problem is, guys with that size are either unathletic stiffs, or athletic Freshmen/Sophs. So if you're a GM and you decide to draft a guy who'll become a good C, you are almost always going to be taking a player who isn't 'the best available' because bigs are never the best available at ages 19-20-21-22. They usually are much less developed than 1's 2's 3's and even 4's.

I think the trick is to draft a C in a year when there are more good ones than usual so you don't have to pick in the top 3 just to get one in a weak draft year. But really, there's no trick and a great deal of luck is involved.

What does this mean for Portland? This year, I think BPA is the best bet. If that's a big, even better.


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## gambitnut (Jan 4, 2003)

I agree that there are other ways for us to get a SF and I would prefer a veteran there. I like Yi and Noah, but I agree with Fork that they might be able to play C for a bit, but there are probably like Aldridge in that they are better suited to play PF, or maybe even SF. I'd like to get Aldridge more minutes at PF, especially if we trade Zach, so I want a true C in the draft. Thabeet could be good, and if the front office thinks he's worth taking a chance on if he comes out I'd be fine with that, but he's nowhere near ready. To me the real choice, assuming we don't get one of the top two picks, is between Hibbert and Hawes. Hawes is better on offense and Hibbert is better on defense. With his talent on offense, I can't help but wonder if he will be a taller Zach. The extra height would reduce many of the weaknesses we see in Zach, but we already have Zach, so we don't need another one unless we have decided to definitely trade the one we have. We could use Hibbert's defense wether we trade Zach or not. I'm one of the fewer and fewer people willing to keep Zach and I think Zach, Aldridge and Hibbert would be a nice big man rotation.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

> Hibbert wouldn't be a bad selection. In fact, he's compared to Joel Przybilla in his nbadraft.net profile.



nbadraft.net thinks he's going to be a one dimentional injury prone center? Wow, sucks to be him. Why is it we would want that?


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## xray (Feb 21, 2005)

Take Sam Bowie!!!

...wait, never mind. :chill:


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

PorterIn2004 said:


> I hear you about the need for help at the center position, but I'm still on the "take the best player available" bandwagon. Players can be added any number of ways and if Aldridge starts at center next year, that's already one position where the Blazers are better than more than half the rest of the league. Given that Randolph can play center in a small line-up, that the team's likely to get at least something from Pryzbilla and/or LaFrentz next year, and that guys like Hamilton can be found relatively easily, it just doesn't seem that urgent to me -- or at least not as urgent as getting the best talent they can out of the draft.


Yes. We could use another good big man, but not at the expense of passing on a more talented prospect at a different position to make it happen. If we're picking in lotto range, it's BPA all the way.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

dudleysghost said:


> Yes. We could use another good big man, but not at the expense of passing on a more talented prospect at a different position to make it happen. If we're picking in lotto range, it's BPA all the way.



Duds is 100% correct. You HAVE to draft Best Player Available if you are the Blazers. Luckily the players available in this draft near the top of the lottery happen to be SF's and PF/C's which are what the Blazers need more than anything. I will seriously be astonished if Zach is here next season, and I imagine he will be sent away for a SF and change. Hibbert while decent isn't the player the Blazers should be focusing on with their own pick. If we aquire a pick in a deal towards the lower lottery and he's still here, depending on who we picked with our own choice he woiuld be a nice selection. 

The Blazers flat out need talented basketball players. Right now they have 2-3 all around talented players. Everyone else is sorely missing in one or more areas.


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## TLo (Dec 27, 2006)

There won't be a "decent" center available after the first 5 picks.


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## Samuel (Jan 1, 2003)

xray said:


> Take Sam Bowie!!!
> 
> ...wait, never mind. :chill:


Only if Roy Tarpley is off the board.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

Just about everybody knows that you draft the best available player (see Sam Bowie). This draft is supposed to be very deep in big men, so which one is the best for our team?


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## smeedemann (Jul 16, 2003)

I agree with the majority of you, draft the best player available. The only sure center worth drafting is Greg Oden.

I live in the bay area and was listening to 680 AM sports talk radio yesterday. They were talking to a draft scout and he said that if a team wanted Noah they could get the equivilant talent with a 2nd round pick. He felt that Anderson Varejo could be had for a 2nd round draft pick and had the same game as Noah. Al Horford is the best player on that team, Noah haa the benefit of playing next to him on a good team.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

smeedemann said:


> I agree with the majority of you, draft the best player available. The only sure center worth drafting is Greg Oden.
> 
> I live in the bay area and was listening to 680 AM sports talk radio yesterday. They were talking to a draft scout and he said that if a team wanted Noah they could get the equivilant talent with a 2nd round pick. He felt that Anderson Varejo could be had for a 2nd round draft pick and had the same game as Noah. Al Horford is the best player on that team, Noah haa the benefit of playing next to him on a good team.


 Noah's stats will be lower because he plays on a very talented team. There are only so many rebounds in a game... and he has to share them with Horford. The same with offense, there is only so many shots in a game. With talented team mates you have to share. 
And the line about Noah being a 2nd rounder is pure poppycock.. same with Varejo.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Trade Zach for a combo of either Jefferson or a S/T for Lewis, then hope we can land Hibbert (who is the best Center outside of Oden) or Hawes (this coming from someone who despises everything Husky). If we can't unload Zach, draft Jeff Green or Al Thornton.

Scenario 1 future lineup:

PG- Sergio
SG- Roy
SF- Jefferson/Lewis
PF- Aldridge
C- Hibbert/Hawes

Scenario 2:

PG- Sergio
SG- Roy
SF- Green/Thornton
PF- Zach
C- Aldridge


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> Scenario 2:
> 
> PG- Sergio
> SG- Roy
> ...


If Zach's not moved, surely you'd start him at PF, Aldridge at center, and bring Joel off the bench, yes?


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## smeedemann (Jul 16, 2003)

> Noah's stats will be lower because he plays on a very talented team. There are only so many rebounds in a game... and he has to share them with Horford. The same with offense, there is only so many shots in a game. With talented team mates you have to share.


I agree that there is only so many shots and rebounds to go around. I just don't see Noah getting many shots on his own, part of a bad team. The guy is a hustle player and does not really have an offensive game to speak of. On defense he does ok, but is often out of position. In the NBA he will get pushed around by heavier players, espcecially when he is playing man defense. I don't think his numbers are that impressive either. 12.2 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.5 to, 1 stl, 1.8 blk

I am sure that a team will draft him high, I just hope it's not Portland.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

PorterIn2004 said:


> If Zach's not moved, surely you'd start him at PF, Aldridge at center, and bring Joel off the bench, yes?


Yeah, thats what I'd do. I was watching TV while I did that so I was paying complete attention to what I was doing.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

graybeard said:


> Noah's stats will be lower because he plays on a very talented team. There are only so many rebounds in a game... and he has to share them with Horford. The same with offense, there is only so many shots in a game. With talented team mates you have to share.


I don't care about Noah's stats; I care about the fact that he has nothing in his game that I consider elite and potentially dominant at the NBA level. It's great that he hustles and makes faces, but I feel his effectiveness at the college level is purely based on being significantly larger than his competition. At the NBA level, where all of his competition will be huge, I think he's going to be a pretty mediocre player.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> Trade Zach for a combo of either Jefferson or a S/T for Lewis, then hope we can land Hibbert (who is the best Center outside of Oden) or Hawes (this coming from someone who despises everything Husky). If we can't unload Zach, draft Jeff Green or Al Thornton.
> 
> Scenario 1 future lineup:
> 
> ...


 Zags, I like both your scenarios. However, I think that if the sonics are to cheap to re-sign Lewis, they're to cheap to deal with Zach's contract... And, do you think Ainge is going to let Pritchard bend him over again? Even if a Zach for Jefferson trade would help Boston, I think Ainge would be gunshy.

:biggrin: Anyhow, I appreciate you and the others that have the balls to step up and name names instead of copping out with "take the best player available" line.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

We wouldn't have to deal with Ainge. I was referring to Richard Jefferson, not Al.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> I don't care about Noah's stats; I care about the fact that he has nothing in his game that I consider elite and potentially dominant at the NBA level. It's great that he hustles and makes faces, but I feel his effectiveness at the college level is purely based on being significantly larger than his competition. At the NBA level, where all of his competition will be huge, I think he's going to be a pretty mediocre player.


 Yo Minstrel! Hey ol' buddy, weren't you saying just about the same thing about Brandon Roy last year? Nothing outstanding. Say what you want, but big men with a well rounded game are hard to find. Sure, Noah's shot is ugly... but he has a post game and the rest of his game is pretty good too. Run the floor, play defense, post scoring, block a few shots, passing... and one of his strongest suits is leadership, something this team sorely needs.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> We wouldn't have to deal with Ainge. I was referring to Richard Jefferson, not Al.


 My bad.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

I think Hibbert is a very good option around picks 8-10. He is not anything like Joel Pryzbilla or Greg Ostertag. Neither of those players led their teams to the final 4. Granted, Jeff Green is not bad but take Hibbert off of Georgetown and they are not even a Sweet 16 team. Offensivley, he is very effective and uses his body well for someone of his size. He is not fast by any means, but I dont see this team turning into Phoenix any time soon. 

Having LaMarcus/Hibbert down low gives us two players with complementary offensive games and a potentially elite defensive duo.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

graybeard said:


> Yo Minstrel! Hey ol' buddy, weren't you saying just about the same thing about Brandon Roy last year? Nothing outstanding.


Yes, I did. And I still don't think Roy has anything dominating about his game, but it seems likely his all-around skills are enough to potentially make him a star. That's not the type of thing I generally like to bet on, though, especially when fishing for a star/superstar.



> Say what you want, but big men with a well rounded game are hard to find. Sure, Noah's shot is ugly... but he has a post game and the rest of his game is pretty good too. Run the floor, play defense, post scoring, block a few shots, passing... and one of his strongest suits is leadership, something this team sorely needs.


I mistrust prospects who's best attribute is "leadership."  I don't think he has a very good post game, actually. His passing is okay and I agree he can run the floor. His defense is fine but not great. Maybe I'm underrating his intangibles, but his tangibles don't impress me when we're trying to get a superstar to put us over the top.


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## Spoolie Gee (Feb 3, 2005)

How about this trade idea from RealGM. 

Dickua and #8 pick for Danny Granger.


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Yes, I did. And I still don't think Roy has anything dominating about his game, but it seems likely his all-around skills are enough to potentially make him a star. That's not the type of thing I generally like to bet on, though, especially when fishing for a star/superstar.


I don't think there IS a star outside of the top 3 or 4 picks. If we get one of those picks, then great but if not, you find the guy who would contribute most to your club and be the best fit. I think Noah is a legitimate candidate for the guy who would fits the bill. 




> I mistrust prospects who's best attribute is "leadership."  I don't think he has a very good post game, actually. His passing is okay and I agree he can run the floor. His defense is fine but not great. Maybe I'm underrating his intangibles, but his tangibles don't impress me when we're trying to get a superstar to put us over the top.


Leadership is a good thing, but when you're basing a guy's whole playing ability on then yea, I agree. I think you're selling Noah short almost intentionally if you're saying his passing is just "okay." His passing ability and ball handeling is phenomenol for a guy his size, I don't think that can be denied much. 

I don't think he's a superstar, then again people didn't seem to think Buck Williams was a supstar when we acquired him and he put us over the top in the western conference. Just something to think about...


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## Darkwebs (May 23, 2006)

Nbadraft.net currently has us picking Roy Hibbert with the 8th pick. Noah is taken with the 7th pick.


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## RedHot&Rolling (Jun 26, 2004)

Yes, we should look at Centers in the draft. But, we must take BPA. There are still so many questions, lottery position, trade scenarios, etc. that thinking about this very seriously is hard.

Yes, the team is thin at Center. I consider Aldridge a PF not a center. Joel and Raef were injured almost all season. What are the chances of that happening again? OK - about 50%!!! Mags will probably sign or be traded elsewhere. 

Our frontcourt will be Joel, LaMarcus, Zach, Raef. Possibly add Travis as b/u PF here. It's wafer thin.


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## Utherhimo (Feb 20, 2005)

I want a sf, pf, pf/c or c I would prefer to get one of each be it two hire lotto picks, one high and low 1st or one high lotto + a veteren stud. 

THE BPA when we are picking will most likely be one of those!


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

Pipe dream time...

Lets say Boston ends up with a pick between 4-6. We trade Zach for Ratliff, Powe and the pick. 

Trade Dickau and our 1st rounder for Danny Granger. 

Draft Joakim Noah or Hawes with the Boston pick.

PG- Jack/Rodriguez
SG- Roy/Udoka
SF- Granger/Webster
PF- Aldridge/Outlaw/Powe
C- Noah or Hawes/Joel


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

ThatBlazerGuy said:


> Pipe dream time...
> 
> Lets say Boston ends up with a pick between 4-6. We trade Zach for Ratliff, Powe and the pick.
> 
> ...



Like the idea of trading Zach for the pick to get Noah but our top pick is worth more than Danny Granger. Granger is a nice player but our top pick should be far more valuable than him.


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## Samuel (Jan 1, 2003)

ThatBlazerGuy said:


> Pipe dream time...
> 
> Lets say Boston ends up with a pick between 4-6. We trade Zach for Ratliff, Powe and the pick.


Can you imagine Al Jefferson and Zach Randolph on the floor together? Blech! (for them)


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

> our top pick is worth more than Danny Granger. Granger is a nice player but our top pick should be far more valuable than him.


I guess it kinda depends on where we end up. I feel Granger is going to be as good as any other SF in this draft besides Durant and much sooner. I would trade a pick below 8 for him. Maby we could pull off a Jack and top 5 protected 08' pick for Granger.


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## Spoolie Gee (Feb 3, 2005)

Sambonius said:


> Like the idea of trading Zach for the pick to get Noah but our top pick is worth more than Danny Granger. Granger is a nice player but our top pick should be far more valuable than him.


I dont think the #8 pick or beyond is worth more then Granger. We're talking about guys like Brewer, Hibbert, Splitter, etc. You don't think Granger is worth one of those players?


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## ehizzy3 (Jun 12, 2006)

i like granger alot, but with that being said i want a draft pick in this draft, so if we trade our original one away for danny, we better be getting another one somehow


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## Spoolie Gee (Feb 3, 2005)

rose garden pimp said:


> i like granger alot, but with that being said i want a draft pick in this draft, so if we trade our original one away for danny, we better be getting another one somehow


What players do want in the late lottery range that make you not willing to trade the pick?


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## ehizzy3 (Jun 12, 2006)

Spoolie Gee said:


> What players do want in the late lottery range that make you not willing to trade the pick?


well with the 8th pick, horford could be there, hawes could be there, and green could be there....but i guess it really depends where we finish the rest of the season, if we have the 8th pick than i dont want to trade it. if we have a 9th or later id trade it for granger.


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

Spoolie Gee said:


> I dont think the #8 pick or beyond is worth more then Granger. We're talking about guys like Brewer, Hibbert, Splitter, etc. You don't think Granger is worth one of those players?


Even if we do get the 8th pick, I find it likely that we could move up at least a few spots by trading it along with one of our assetts in Jack, 2nd rounders, or Freeland. If we pick at #8, one of Noah, Jianlian, or Hawes would have a pretty good chance of being available, and I think any of those 3 would add to our team more than Granger.


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## Yega1979 (Mar 22, 2003)

I'm still trying to figure out why Noah is considered a top 10 pick. To me, he seems like a Jeff Foster type. A career bench player, good defender, contributes slightly on offense.


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

Yega1979 said:


> I'm still trying to figure out why Noah is considered a top 10 pick. To me, he seems like a Jeff Foster type. A career bench player, good defender, contributes slightly on offense.


Watch his games and then comment. It's almost obvious that if you're comparing him to Jeff Foster you haven't seen him much. Varajeo isn't a bad comparison but with much better passing ability, better ball handles, more energy down and up the court, and probably better defensively and slightly offensively. He does lots of little things that make up a lot.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

Anyone care to compare Hibbert to Magloire?


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

I think Hibbert is more mobile in the post with better overall post moves. Especially when it comes to explosiveness, Hibbert is much better. Watching the Georgetown/UNC game their was a play where Hibbert spun around his man in the post and threw it down in one fluid motion. Magloire simply cant do that.


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## Spoolie Gee (Feb 3, 2005)

Sambonius said:


> Even if we do get the 8th pick, I find it likely that we could move up at least a few spots by trading it along with one of our assetts in Jack, 2nd rounders, or Freeland. If we pick at #8, one of Noah, Jianlian, or Hawes would have a pretty good chance of being available, and I think any of those 3 would add to our team more than Granger.


I cant comment on Jianlian since I havent seen him play but I don't think either Noah or Hawes would even start for us. I definitely wouldn't trade Jack and our pick to move up and take anyone other then the obvious two and Brandan Wright.


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## wizmentor (Nov 10, 2005)

A slight disagreement with the BPA idea.
I really think we need the BNGA - the best non-guard
available. The highest nbadraft.net currently
has a guard going is Nick Young at #11. I think
we'll draft higher than that, but we really want
BNGA not BPA.


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

Spoolie Gee said:


> I cant comment on Jianlian since I havent seen him play but I don't think either Noah or Hawes would even start for us. I definitely wouldn't trade Jack and our pick to move up and take anyone other then the obvious two and Brandan Wright.


They would if we trade Zach Randolph. Chances are if they do draft either one, they'll be looking to shop Randolph. I haven't seen much of Hawes, but I have seen a good amount of Noah and I'm thinking he'll start for the team that drafts him, outside of maybe Phoenix.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Sambonius said:


> I don't think there IS a star outside of the top 3 or 4 picks.


This draft is supposed to be one of the deepest in a long time, and plenty of stars and superstars have been found outside of the top-3/4 in other drafts. I can virtually guarantee that there will be at least one player outside the top-four who will emerge as a star.



> Leadership is a good thing, but when you're basing a guy's whole playing ability on then yea, I agree. I think you're selling Noah short almost intentionally if you're saying his passing is just "okay." His passing ability and ball handeling is phenomenol for a guy his size, I don't think that can be denied much.


*If* I'm underselling Noah, it's not intentional...I have no reason to undersell him. I simply have not been impressed by him, and I've seen a fair amount of his games the last two years. I think his passing and ball-handling are overrated. Yes, they're good for his position, but he's not Chris Webber. He's not an impact-maker with his passing, that's my belief. Or with any other part of his game.


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## Samuel (Jan 1, 2003)

wizmentor said:


> A slight disagreement with the BPA idea.
> I really think we need the BNGA - the best non-guard
> available. The highest nbadraft.net currently
> has a guard going is Nick Young at #11. I think
> ...


If the BPA is a guard, we should definitely take him. But I doubt that management will come to the conclusion that the BPA at our spot is a G. This is one of the weaker guard classes in recent memory.


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## GOD (Jun 22, 2003)

a Center prospect that everyone is leaving off the list but should get a lot of consideration is Josh McRoberts. As a freshman last year and as a HS senior he would have been a lock for a top ten pick, but this year he has not played as well as many had hoped, and Duke has played poorly. But this does not change the fact that josh is still a very talented and very athletic big man who could become a great player at the NBA level. He is not a star, stand alone player who will be able to carry a tram on his back, but I really think he could be an excellent player on the Blazers and play very well with the team concept. This year his numbers are pretty good all around, just star quality. in35 min he is scoring 13 points, 8 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 2.5 blocks and 1.2 steals. 

Hibert I don't want for the Blazers because he is always the last back up the court and seems slow although his feet are fast around the basket. I just don't want the Blazers to have a plodding center for years to come. Noah, Hawes and McRobberts are all much quicker and can play at a faster pace. 

What I would like to see the Blazers do get an additional pick by tradeing. I would like to end with a center prospect and a SF prospect, although BPA always overrules. But using the 8-10 pick of the Blazers on Jeff Green and trading Outlaw and a couple second rounders for pick in the 14-18 range and grabbing McRobberts would be sweet if you ask me. Two team players who will mesh well with Roy and Aldridge and will raise the overall talent level of the Blazers for years to come.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

graybeard said:


> Just about everybody knows that you draft the best available player (see Sam Bowie). This draft is supposed to be very deep in big men, so which one is the best for our team?


I agree that this looks like a good draft for "big men" but I'm not seeing many centers that do much for me, after Oden, of course, and Wright (who's listed as a PF at 6'10" and 210). Hawes scares me for some reason, at least in part because he seems stronger offensively than defensively. Jianlian intrigues me rather a lot, but it's hard for me to imagine what position will work best for him in the NBA, though a team like Portland (with guys like Aldridge, Roy, and Outlaw able to play multiple positions around him) might be as good a fit as any.

Honestly though, while I wouldn't call this a weak draft for centers, it's not standing out to me as a particularly good one. That said, it might be worth getting a solid PF. Ideally a PF who could reasonably play at least some meaningfully at either the 3 or the 5, but, with the growing probability that Randolph will be moved (probably for a SF or smaller player), getting a really pure 4 might be fine. And, even if Zach _does_ stick around, it's not like the Blazers have power forwards coming out their collective ears -- it's entirely possible that Randolph, Aldridge, and Outlaw are the only guys currently on the roster who'll see any meaningful time at that position if the Blazers (figuring Joel and Raef, if they play next year at all, will both be logging their minutes at center).


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## Samuel (Jan 1, 2003)

McRoberts is a toughie. 

Considering his ridiculous talent (McDonalds pedigree), it was assumed that he'd step up in the absence of JJ Redick. Well that didn't happen, not by a longshot. 

He's got a nice outside shot, and has a few offensive moves, but I'm wondering how he translates as a player. Unless he bulks up to David Lee type proportions (both former skinny white dudes who challenged for the McDonalds dunk contest title), I'm wondering where he fits in the NBA. 

Is he a 3? No, he's not quick enough.
Could he play 5? No way, he's only 6-10 and has more of a perimeter/penetration game than a post game.

PF is the only position for him at the NBA level, but he has the wrong skillset. My guess is he'll stick around in the NBA for a long time, but as a glue guy off the bench. I wouldn't mind McRoberts as our 'other' 1st round pick, but I don't see him being the answer.


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## ehizzy3 (Jun 12, 2006)

after oden and b.wright, i want horford


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

Samuel said:


> If the BPA is a guard, we should definitely take him. But I doubt that management will come to the conclusion that the BPA at our spot is a G. This is one of the weaker guard classes in recent memory.


I agree on both counts. Roy's the only guard I have full confidence in on the roster, and the next two are both best off playing PG. While I like Jones as a combo guard off the bench, I don't want to see him on the floor for long stretches, especially at SG (unless he and Brandon are swapping roles, offense to defense). Webster may or may not pan out but I'm thinking even if he does he's got better than even odds of proving to be more of a SF than a SG.

One of my big hopes for this off-season is that management finds at least one new addition who's legitimately able to swing either 2/3 or 3/4, just for the added flexibility in the line-up. As the saying goes, if you've got a utility infielder but no second baseman, then you don't have a utility infielder. That is, I think the team will get more out of both Roy and, to a lesser extent Aldridge, Outlaw, and Webster, if there's even one more impact player who can handle at least two of those middle positions.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

> a Center prospect that everyone is leaving off the list but should get a lot of consideration is Josh McRoberts. As a freshman last year and as a HS senior he would have been a lock for a top ten pick, but this year he has not played as well as many had hoped, and Duke has played poorly. But this does not change the fact that josh is still a very talented and very athletic big man who could become a great player at the NBA level. He is not a star, stand alone player who will be able to carry a tram on his back, but I really think he could be an excellent player on the Blazers and play very well with the team concept. This year his numbers are pretty good all around, just star quality. in35 min he is scoring 13 points, 8 rebounds, 3.5 assists, 2.5 blocks and 1.2 steals


I agree 100%. This kid is going to be a bargain in this big man heavy draft. He is decently fast, better than Hibbert and Hawes but not as good as Noah, and very athletic for a PF/C. The form of his shot is very good, but somehow he misses them. He is not a banging big man, but knows how to rebound. I would love to find a way to move up to the 1st round and get him using 2nd round picks/Fred Jones/Maby Travis Outlaw. I agree that he is no star, but I think he is a legit rotation player in the NBA and spot starter, and our team needs a young big man like that.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

ThatBlazerGuy said:


> I agree 100%. This kid is going to be a bargain in this big man heavy draft. He is decently fast, better than Hibbert and Hawes but not as good as Noah, and very athletic for a PF/C.


I don't see how he can play the 5 in the NBA... he's just too small. 

Ed O.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

Ed O said:


> I don't see how he can play the 5 in the NBA... he's just too small.
> 
> Ed O.


It's funny. While every site I've seen has agreed within a few pounds that he's 240, they have him ranging from 6'9" to 6'11". I'm used to some variation but, unless you're talking about a guy like Damon (and really even then), 2" seems like a lot.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Passing ability for a big man in the NBA is overrated when the player can't hit a jump shot to begin with. The defenders will be playing the passing lanes like crazy making his passing ability a non factor. Ball handling is the same, unless your a team like Phoenix where you want a every player to be able to handle the ball. I think Noah would flourish in Phoenix and with the current 5 pick, I think its a likely destination.


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

beside oden, the best pure center in this draft is Hibbert. i think Thabeet has bust written all over him. i wouldn't use a 1st round pick on him. Hawes is a skilled big man, but his defense and rebounding still leaves a lot to be desired.

Hibber has improved his game drastically. he's just not big and strong, but now possesses some definate skills on offense.


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## TLo (Dec 27, 2006)

The only guys other than Oden that might be decent centers are Noah and Hawes. Hibbert has size, but he's a klutz. Noah doesn't get nearly enough credit on this board. He is the main cog to that Florida team that has a chance at winning its 2nd consecutive national championship.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

smeedemann said:


> I agree with the majority of you, draft the best player available. The only sure center worth drafting is Greg Oden.
> 
> I live in the bay area and was listening to 680 AM sports talk radio yesterday. They were talking to a draft scout and he said that if a team wanted Noah they could get the equivilant talent with a 2nd round pick. He felt that Anderson Varejo could be had for a 2nd round draft pick and had the same game as Noah. Al Horford is the best player on that team, Noah haa the benefit of playing next to him on a good team.


LMAO at Varejao for a second rounder... this "scout" has no credibility after making such a statement.


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

TLo said:


> Hibbert has size, but he's a klutz.


i used to think the same. it really suprises me how much he has improved though. i think he's a lotto pick now and the 2nd best center after oden.



> Noah doesn't get nearly enough credit on this board. He is the main cog to that Florida team that has a chance at winning its 2nd consecutive national championship.


i think noah was overrated last year being projected as a #1 pick, but where he's projected to go this year is just about right. i also agree with you that he's the best player on his team, but i think the beter pro player will be his teammate, Horford.


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## Spoolie Gee (Feb 3, 2005)

Sambonius said:


> They would if we trade Zach Randolph. Chances are if they do draft either one, they'll be looking to shop Randolph. I haven't seen much of Hawes, but I have seen a good amount of Noah and I'm thinking he'll start for the team that drafts him, outside of maybe Phoenix.


I hear ya. If we trade Zach it would totally change my thinking on the draft and moves we should make.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

The best true center after Oden is definatley Hibbert. There are a few reasons I take Hibbert over Noah, and rate him just about equal to Hawes...

1) AGE: Here are the birth dates, according to draftexpress.com. 
Joakim Noah(2/25/1985, currently 22)
Spencer Hawes(4/28/1988, currently 18)
Roy Hibbert(12/11/1986, currently 20)
and for fun, Hasheem Thabeet(2/16/87, currently 20; 3 months older than Roy Hibbert but 3 years behind him when it comes to Baketball)

Why I Like Hibbert...

Roy has the size to be a true, absolute center. I do not think Joakim Noah, even in the up tempo pace that is getting more popular, is big enough to play center. The guy is skinny, skinnier than Mikki Moore. I think he is going to be a decent big man off the bench, but no starter. Spencer Hawes has good size, but is still not very built and already pretty slow. Roy Hibbert is huge, not only is he 7'2 but he is very coordinated and proportional. He is by no means fast up and down the court, but he is no worse than Yao Ming or many other larger centers in todays game. Hawes is a bit faster than Hibbert, but the overall difference in strength and speed between the two is in Hibbert's favor. Noah is definatley the fastest of the 3, but once again he is not a center either. Both are better passers than Hibbert, but Roy is definatley not a terrible center. In the end, Roy makes the alrgest impact in the NCAA(After the Oden and Durant of course) right now. He has lead his team to the Final 4. I know Jeff Green is good, but take Hibbert off this team and it is not even half as good. Take Green off and they probably just would have not gotten to the Elite 8. If we want a real, true center so we can move Aldridge to PF he is our man. Having a C who is both a defensive threat and a threat to play w/ his back to the basket would be awesome.


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

I haven't seen Hibbert for myself but his size and offensive touch is a definite intrigue. Couple things I'd like to know is about him on the defensive end and if management thinks he can work in an up-tempo game if that is the direction this team chooses to go with, especially with Sergio Rodriguez at the point. It's nice that he has a well developed offensive game, but I am more interested to know about him on the defensive end along with his ability or lack there of to play in an up tempo game with the likes of Sergio Rodriguez and LaMarcus Aldridge. His size, age, and offensive game definitly make him something to consider. I hope to catch a game of his soon.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

> Couple things I'd like to know is about him on the defensive end


He is definatley a below average transition player. That being said, he is a tereffic shot blocker(2.5 in 26.5mpg), a very physical man-to-man defender(who can fall victim to quicker moves) and a great help defender for his size. 



> if management thinks he can work in an up-tempo game if that is the direction this team chooses to go with, especially with Sergio Rodriguez at the point.


I think Sergio is definatley the future PG of this team. But, a slower big man like Hibbert is not going to ruin our running chances. The only teams in this league with 5 players who are very fast for their size are Phoenix and Golden State. Many teams that run are not running all 5 players as hard as they can, that is a rare gameplan that has not succeded in a long time, if ever. Hibbert can make a good outlet pass and our 4 other players can run. When we go half court(which will happen 40-50% of the time even on a running team), he would be a beast.


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## porkchopexpress (May 24, 2006)

ThatBlazerGuy said:


> Spencer Hawes has good size, but is still not very built and already pretty slow.



I'm not saying we should pick Hawes, but him 'not very built' might have something to do with losing 20 lbs. during the season due to illness.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

I'm not sure if Noah is a super-star, but from what I've seen he would be a really nice complement to Aldridge down low.

I think a big, athletic, talented player with heaps of energy can add a whole lot to any team.

Aldridge doesn't seem to have an aggressive mentality or killer instinct, so pairing him with someone up front who has that could help push Aldridge and make us a more hard nosed, aggressive team.

I think if you take Zach out of the lineup today and replace him with a player like Noah, things get very interesting.

Maybe there's a better pick, but I wouldn't at all be disappointed if they walked away with Noah.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

One more thing...

As to whether or not Noah is a true C, he's probably not. But he seems enough like a PF/C.

So is Aldridge.

If you put two PF/C's on the court together, do you really need a true C?

I think two PF/C's is even better...


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

I am not sure why there is so much hate for Noah. I, for one, will be happy to see him in red and black. The guy is a proven winner that offers leadership qualities and gets the crowd excited. He could serve the role of someone like Brian Grant in the late 90s/early 2Ks for this team. He might not be the best prospect in terms of talent - but the team seems to have a very good core of talent in Roy, Aldridge and possibly Sergio - An emotional leader that connects to the community and does a lot of the little things would not be a bad thing to have.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

andalusian said:


> I am not sure why there is so much hate for Noah. I, for one, will be happy to see him in red and black. The guy is a proven winner that offers leadership qualities and gets the crowd excited. He could serve the role of someone like Brian Grant in the late 90s/early 2Ks for this team. He might not be the best prospect in terms of talent - but the team seems to have a very good core of talent in Roy, Aldridge and possibly Sergio - An emotional leader that connects to the community and does a lot of the little things would not be a bad thing to have.


I don't hate Noah, but I don't think he's worth a top 5 pick, because there are more talented guys out there. Brian Grant was a hustle guy as well, but he was also strong enough to play C, which I don't think Noah is. I also don't think that NBA teams should go around trying to draft a "leader" or someone who has the most hype, because it's too hard to predict who will emerge as a leader at the next level and who will really connect with the community. That said, if our pick is in the 8th to 12th range, and Noah falls to us, we should take a look.


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

Blazer Ringbearer said:


> I'm not sure if Noah is a super-star, but from what I've seen he would be a really nice complement to Aldridge down low.
> 
> I think a big, athletic, talented player with heaps of energy can add a whole lot to any team.
> 
> ...



I agree completely. I think Noah would be an excellent compliment to not only Aldridge but the rest of the team with his energy, ball handling, and passing ability. He's just a smart basketball player who frustrates the opposition. Will he be a guy who has his own shoes or posters? Probably not but I think it's likely that he will improve any team he goes to greatly. Same could have been said for Buck Williams, Horace Grant, Marcus Camby, etc. Those players were integral parts to their teams.


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

dudleysghost said:


> I don't hate Noah, but I don't think he's worth a top 5 pick, because there are more talented guys out there. Brian Grant was a hustle guy as well, but he was also strong enough to play C, which I don't think Noah is. I also don't think that NBA teams should go around trying to draft a "leader" or someone who has the most hype, because it's too hard to predict who will emerge as a leader at the next level and who will really connect with the community. That said, if our pick is in the 8th to 12th range, and Noah falls to us, we should take a look.


I don't think it's a talent issue, I think it's that Noah would be a great fit to this team. He does the little things that make everyone play better. It's pretty hard to find those type of guys who do the little things so well like pass, handle the ball for a guy his size, defend, play with heart, frustrate the opponent, play with passion and energy. Those things are pretty rare, that's why Noah is so highly regarded and I bet if Phoenix has a chance to take the guy, they will because he would be such a great fit to their team as well.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

dudleysghost said:


> I don't hate Noah, but I don't think he's worth a top 5 pick, because there are more talented guys out there.


Fair enough. I do not have any issues with this statement. It is the people that claim that Noah will be a bust or they will hate it if the Blazers select him.

Personally, I did not watch enough College BB to evaluate him against other C/PF candidates that will be around the 8th place where Portland is currently projected to draft.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

Sambonius said:


> I don't think it's a talent issue, I think it's that Noah would be a great fit to this team. He does the little things that make everyone play better. It's pretty hard to find those type of guys who do the little things so well like pass, handle the ball for a guy his size, defend, play with heart, frustrate the opponent, play with passion and energy. Those things are pretty rare, that's why Noah is so highly regarded and I bet if Phoenix has a chance to take the guy, they will because he would be such a great fit to their team as well.


Heart, passion and energy you say? I've heard a similar argument before ... who did people say that about a million times last year ... it was ...

Adam Morrison. How well do his heart and passion serve him in the NBA now?

I'm all for players who play with a balls-out attitude, but if the guy doesn't have an NBA game to back it up, then it doesn't matter how passionate he is. Mark Madsen may play like a mad dog, but he still isn't good.

Noah does have some skills, but I think that, like some in here have said, a lot of his game seems to be predicated on having a size and/or quickness advantage over his opponents in college, and playing in the league is going to be much harder for him. I like his passing, his handles and his generally high activity level too, which is why I said he might be a good pick around 10th if he's still there, but he's going to struggle to make the transition from college more than many of his peers, and he's never going to be a star at this level. I think the Varejao comparison is somewhat apt (not just because they look similar!), and I wouldn't think of using a top 5 pick on him, although he clearly should have been drafted much earlier than the second round.

Also, Aldridge and Noah together is a terrible combination. They are both undersized for the C position, and combined they have nobody who is strong enough to guard the post. Garnett, Duncan, Yao, Brand, Boozer etc... these guys can all overpower Aldridge, and Noah looks to be even weaker. Both are actually good defenders overall IMO, but they both use length and quickness to defend. Sometimes however, you need to have a post defender with strength or you are going to end up getting pushed around right in the heart of your own defense. Aldridge is going to keep adding strength, and maybe someday it will be enough so that he can play next to a skinny guy like Noah, but I wouldn't bet a low pick on it.


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

dudleysghost said:


> Heart, passion and energy you say? I've heard a similar argument before ... who did people say that about a million times last year ... it was ...
> 
> Adam Morrison. How well do his heart and passion serve him in the NBA now?


But that's my point, if that's the only thing going for a player then it wouldn't be wise to acquire them. Adam Morrison's only attribute was shooting, Noah can do several things well. 



> I'm all for players who play with a balls-out attitude, but if the guy doesn't have an NBA game to back it up, then it doesn't matter how passionate he is. Mark Madsen may play like a mad dog, but he still isn't good.


Again, I agree. Attitude or leadership shouldn't be the only requirement for picking a player, but if it is one of many other skills, then why not? Madsen and Morrison are examples of guys who have good attitudes but only one true skill set, rebounding or shooting. Noah has shown several skills. 



> Noah does have some skills, but I think that, like some in here have said, a lot of his game seems to be predicated on having a size and/or quickness advantage over his opponents in college, and playing in the league is going to be much harder for him. I like his passing, his handles and his generally high activity level too, which is why I said he might be a good pick around 10th if he's still there, but he's going to struggle to make the transition from college more than many of his peers, and he's never going to be a star at this level. I think the Varejao comparison is somewhat apt (not just because they look similar!), and I wouldn't think of using a top 5 pick on him, although he clearly should have been drafted much earlier than the second round.


Your concerns are definitly legitmate, but if Prichard is confident that he's our guy, he has my blessing. 



> Also, Aldridge and Noah together is a terrible combination. They are both undersized for the C position, and combined they have nobody who is strong enough to guard the post. Garnett, Duncan, Yao, Brand, Boozer etc... these guys can all overpower Aldridge, and Noah looks to be even weaker. Both are actually good defenders overall IMO, but they both use length and quickness to defend. Sometimes however, you need to have a post defender with strength or you are going to end up getting pushed around right in the heart of your own defense. Aldridge is going to keep adding strength, and maybe someday it will be enough so that he can play next to a skinny guy like Noah, but I wouldn't bet a low pick on it.


I couldn't disagree more. Both are long, athletic, smart, good passers. Aldridge is already getting stronger and I think Noah will get stronger too. I don't think Noah is our only option but we'd have to be fools to not consider him.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

Sambonius said:


> But that's my point, if that's the only thing going for a player then it wouldn't be wise to acquire them. Adam Morrison's only attribute was shooting, Noah can do several things well.


I think you are remembering those guys' college careers myopically. That's all those players are in the NBA, but in college they could do a lot more. Madsen was a great rebounder who could also score, defend and he was a leader on a very good Stanford team. Morrison at Gonzaga wasn't just a one-dimensional _shooter_, he was a _scorer_, with the ability to hit from distance or drive or use an array of nifty moves to clear room for himself or draw fouls. Morrison's one-dimension wasn't shooting, it was offense, which is a much bigger dimension.

The problem with those guys isn't that they are one-dimensional, it's that the things that made them stars in the college game just didn't translate well to the NBA. That's what I'm afraid will happen with Noah as well. He will be a useful NBA player, but probably always a marginal starter/6th man caliber player, and I'm hoping to get more than that out of our pick if it's a low one.



Sambonius said:


> Again, I agree. Attitude or leadership shouldn't be the only requirement for picking a player, but if it is one of many other skills, then why not? Madsen and Morrison are examples of guys who have good attitudes but only one true skill set, rebounding or shooting. Noah has shown several skills.


Madsen was a decent scorer and a great defender in college, and Morrison was a good passer and scored with a very rare dynamism, but their methods just didn't work in the pros. What exactly are Noah's true skills? He's going to have a tough time rebounding in the NBA and defending the post. His handles and passing are good, but how are they even going to be utilized by an NBA team other than Phoenix? He doesn't have the skills to be a low post player in the pros, and he doesn't have the jumper and the driving ability necessary to be a high post player. What can he even do in a structured offense? Like Madsen and Morrison, he will probably also end up being a fairly one-dimensional guy in the pros, and that dimension is called "garbageman".

That's why his attitude and supposed leadership doesn't matter. Nobody follows the leadership and example of a rookie who doesn't have the talent to be a dominant player. Brandon Roy can talk, and other guys will listen. Adam Morrison, for all his heart and passion, probably doesn't get the same deference from his Bobcat teammates.




Sambonius said:


> Your concerns are definitly legitmate, but if Prichard is confident that he's our guy, he has my blessing.


Hey, after seeing how great the 2006 draft turned out, I'm not going to question Pritchard much either. If he drafts Noah, then I'll believe you that Noah will be a better NBA player than I'm expecting. I wouldn't be surprised though, that if we somehow end up with the #4-#7 pick, that Pritchard will pass on Noah. Will KP have your blessing if he thinks Noah isn't our guy?



Sambonius said:


> I couldn't disagree more. Both are long, athletic, smart, good passers. Aldridge is already getting stronger and I think Noah will get stronger too. I don't think Noah is our only option but we'd have to be fools to not consider him.


It's hard to predict how strong a guy can eventually get, but you can make a good guess by looking at his frame. Noah is almost Keon Clark thin, and he's got the kind of narrow frame that is just difficult to add muscle to. He's got good definition, kind of like Morrison clearly did last season, so you can tell he works out hard, but it's just genetics. Aldridge is somewhat the same way, but to a much lesser degree. Someone still has to guard the post and be able to box out strong guys. You'll notice that, despite all the talk about the demise of the center and the new NBA, almost every top team in the league has at least one tough guy in the front court, and I think there is a reason for that.


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## 2k (Dec 30, 2005)

Noah is about 235. Twenty more pounds and he is the typical NBA center. I don’t see why size is an issue unless you think he is going to be the next Sean Bradley as someone who cant gain weight or muscle no matter how much they eat or train.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

2k said:


> Noah is about 235. Twenty more pounds and he is the typical NBA center. I don’t see why size is an issue unless you think he is going to be the next Sean Bradley as someone who cant gain weight or muscle no matter how much they eat or train.


20 lbs can be difficult for some people to add, such as those with very thin frames. But it isn't size I'm worried about, it's strength, and the fact that his game and his body don't look like they are of the type that will succeed in the NBA.

Looking at the stat sheet for Florida, I notice that Horford and Noah are very similar in just about every category. Yet now, the consensus seems to be that Horford should and will get picked ahead of Noah, probably in the 4th slot. Why do you Noah fans think that is?


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## 2k (Dec 30, 2005)

dudleysghost said:


> 20 lbs can be difficult for some people to add, such as those with very thin frames. But it isn't size I'm worried about, it's strength, and the fact that his game and his body don't look like they are of the type that will succeed in the NBA.
> 
> Looking at the stat sheet for Florida, I notice that Horford and Noah are very similar in just about every category. Yet now, the consensus seems to be that Horford should and will get picked ahead of Noah, probably in the 4th slot. Why do you Noah fans think that is?


Strength is easier to develop than size but strength is a little overrated anyway. Most guys get overpowered in the post because they don’t have a low base or they play soft to avoid foul trouble. Noah bends his knees in the post real well. There are only a few guys in the NBA who can overpower him and Shaq is getting old. To me the big question about Noah is rebounding. Is he going to be a great rebounder or a good rebounder? Its hard to gauge Noah’s rebounding because he plays with Horford, Green, and Brewer. He also misses a lot of minutes playing on a dominant team. 

Horford has moved up on Noah because he is scouted as the perfect NBA PF. With the way he became a go to guy in the tournament its hard to see any real flaws. Noah has obvious flaws. You can watch three Florida games and not see him take a jump shot. With a smaller mobile center you want some midrange game. Its true some guys just don’t gain weight but Noah was a lot skinnier. Most guys that just cant put on weight are skinny for life. My point is the guy only needs 25 pounds and if hustle can make Ben Wallace a successful 6’8 center it could do the same for Noah. He might not be as strong as Wallace but he has a lot of physical tools that most centers in the NBA lack.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

2k said:


> Strength is easier to develop than size but strength is a little overrated anyway. Most guys get overpowered in the post because they don’t have a low base or they play soft to avoid foul trouble. Noah bends his knees in the post real well. There are only a few guys in the NBA who can overpower him and Shaq is getting old. To me the big question about Noah is rebounding. Is he going to be a great rebounder or a good rebounder? Its hard to gauge Noah’s rebounding because he plays with Horford, Green, and Brewer. He also misses a lot of minutes playing on a dominant team.
> 
> Horford has moved up on Noah because he is scouted as the perfect NBA PF. With the way he became a go to guy in the tournament its hard to see any real flaws. Noah has obvious flaws. You can watch three Florida games and not see him take a jump shot. With a smaller mobile center you want some midrange game. Its true some guys just don’t gain weight but Noah was a lot skinnier. Most guys that just cant put on weight are skinny for life. My point is the guy only needs 25 pounds and if hustle can make Ben Wallace a successful 6’8 center it could do the same for Noah. He might not be as strong as Wallace but he has a lot of physical tools that most centers in the NBA lack.


Ok, there's no way to prove this, but I can tell you with certainty that there are a lot more guys in the NBA that can overpower Joakim Noah than just Shaq. I'm aware that a low base helps a player play tough in the post, but nearly every post defender in the NBA knows those kinds of fundamentals, and if they do get overpowered it is usually because they aren't strong enough to hold the spot.

You can say that strength is overrated, but you didn't answer my question about it. If it is so overrated, why does almost every good team in the league still have a tough guy on the team, ususally in the starting lineup? Why did Dallas pay so much for Erick Dampier? Why did Detroit go out and sign Nazr Muhammad and Dale Davis? San Antonio went and got Fabricio Oberto, to play next to Tim Dunan, who is also very large. Washington has Haywood and Thomas, Cleveland has Ilgauskas, LAL has Kwame and Bynum, LAC has Brand and Kaman, Phoenix has Stoudemire, CHI has Ben Wallace, Toronto went out and traded for Rasho Nesterovic, there's Carlos Boozer, Nene, Dwight Howard ... and that's not even mentioning Shaq and Yao.

So you have to ask yourself, if strength isn't important, why does just about every decent team in teh league start a big strong guy in the front court? The only exception I can find is Detroit, who starts Wallace and Webber, but that's only an exception if you overlook the fact that Rasheed Wallace is actually much stronger than you might think by looking at his frame. Also ask yourself why it is that Kevin Garnett, Jermaine O'Neal and Chris Bosh have both publicly asked their GMs to get them a big burly center to play with, if such a thing is so unimportant.

Ben Wallace doesn't get by in the NBA with hustle, he gets by because he is strong, and because he has very long arms and decent athletecism. When you say Noah "might not be as strong as Ben Wallace", I think you are really understating the problem. There's no "might" about it, Ben Wallace is one of the strongest big men in the NBA, and Noah would be one of the weakest. Aldridge gets pushed around in the post now, and Noah looks even weaker. Both will add muscle, but I'm afraid Noah will never be able to toughen up enough to not get pushed around under an NBA basket. No way he adds 25 pounds to that frame, unless he quits basketball and starts eating doughnuts.


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## 2k (Dec 30, 2005)

There are barely any players that use power moves in the post. Most guys that can score use quickness. You have Ilgauskas, Stoudemire who’s quickness is just as deadly, Shaq, occasionally Duncan and Yao, after that there are maybe a couple other guys who can consistently muscle points but that’s about it. 

Strength is overrated in regards to post defense at least from what I see and you are right there is no way to prove it. When I see a guy get overpowered by a player like Ilgauskas its usually because they are standing too high. They are afraid of getting shot over and they aren’t quick enough to stay low and still contest the shot. Noah has great fundamentals in the post. Brewer has some great defensive fundamentals too. They are constantly bending their legs. Noah even gets low against people that cant score and he springs out of his stance to contest shots knowing when to commit to the block and when not too. 


With rebounding I would say being able to hold your ground is important, but than so is quickness, hustle and stamina which is why rebounding is the big question mark for me. I’m not worried about Noah’s post defense. I saw Oden give up more points in the post in one game against Illinois than I have seen Noah give up in the 10 or so games I have seen him play.


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

The times of having to worry about a monster center in the middle are over for now. Shaq is hardly the threat he used to be. Yao isn't that physical for a guy his size. Maybe when Oden comes into the league. But right now, most of the teams in the league have a guy in the middle that most power forwards can guard, or is just really a power forward playing out of position. Look at how many teams have legitimate big guys in the middle. Shaq in Miami. Curry in NY. Kaman in LA. Yao in Houston. Out of those 4, a power forward can guard 2 and maybe 3 of them easily enough. Considering that covers 98% of a teams seasonal games, I think we could get away with a "thinner" center.


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## RedHot&Rolling (Jun 26, 2004)

smeedemann said:


> I agree with the majority of you, draft the best player available. The only sure center worth drafting is Greg Oden.
> 
> I live in the bay area and was listening to 680 AM sports talk radio yesterday. They were talking to a draft scout and he said that if a team wanted Noah they could get the equivilant talent with a 2nd round pick. He felt that Anderson Varejo could be had for a 2nd round draft pick and had the same game as Noah. Al Horford is the best player on that team, Noah haa the benefit of playing next to him on a good team.



If true, I'd send them a 2nd round pick for Varejo TODAY!!


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## RedHot&Rolling (Jun 26, 2004)

Because I believe we'll continue to slide in the standings a bit more until the end of the season - we're going to be drafting a big in most cases.

I have the potential draftees listed in this (IMO) order:

1. Oden
2. Durant
3. B Wright
4. Horford
5. Hibbert
6. Noah
7. Green
8. Brewer
9. Hawes
10.Jianlian

If I were GM the only change from this order would be I'd take Green over Noah. Otherwise, I'd pick 'em like the list. Every one of these players could help the Blazers with the exception of #9 (too raw) and #10 (too unknown).

There are others lower in the draft that'd be worthy of picking, Fernandez, Gasol, Afflalo.

For me, Hibbert had a great tournament, played right up with Oden, is bigger and has decent skills. I could easily see him playing C next to Aldridge or Zach (still hoping for a trade). The top 15 players are all solid. But, only 2 are Superstars, and the rest are a notch lower.

I'm hoping we have a Hoyas draft party!!! Either one fill a need and are BPA at our probable slot.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

Ok, let's think about some of the big men in the league.

Thinking of guys with strong back to the basket games:

Zach Randolph, Carlos Boozer, Elton Brand, Nick Collison, Drew Gooden, Eddy Curry, Tim Duncan, Pau Gasol, Kevin Garnett, Dwight Howard, Big Z, Yao, Shaq

If you're a skinny 6'11" kid trying to guard one of these guys, what's going to happen? Can anyone honestly say with a straight face that strength isn't that important? If you are weak, these guys will destroy you, plain and simple. That's 13 teams, almost half the league, and I'm sure someone else could think of more, so every other game we have to face someone with that ability.

But that's not all. Oh no. Strength is also required to guard guys like Rasheed Wallace, Chris Bosh and Jermaine O'Neal, who are supposed softies. Why? Because when they post up, they use a bump to create space for their turnaround jumpers. If you get too low, they shoot over you. If you can't stand tall and absorb the bump, you are pushed backwards and they shoot right in your face. Kenyon Martin could guard Rasheed Wallace, but Robert Horry couldn't, for that reason.

But it's still not over. What else do you need strength for? Rebounding! On a regular night in the NBA, as a big man, you might face one of these guys:

Reggie Evans, Nene, Udonis Haslem, Andris Biedrins, Jackie Butler, Andrew Bynum, Tyson Chandler, Sam Dalembert, Erick Dampier, Dale Davis, Jeff Foster, Al Jefferson, Chris Kaman, Nazr Muhammad, Zo Mourning, Troy Murphy, Emeka Okafor, David Lee, Sean May, Paul Millsap

When the ball goes up for a shot, these guys try to get into position to rebound it, and it's your job to stop them and get better position. Strength not that important? Can you imagine trying to fight for a spot with one of these guys? How can you possibly say that?

For all the talk about the changes in the NBA, almost every team in the league has one of these big bruising guys. I guess the actual NBA didn't get the memo about how it was supposed to be going small now.

IMO though, we could get away with either a skinny C or a skinny PF, but not both. The positions are blending a bit, and are someone interchangeable. But someone has to stand strong in the post, and someone has to fight those burly rebounders for boards, and if our frontline is Aldridge and Noah, then we are going to have a tough time doing either.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

dudleysghost said:


> Ok, let's think about some of the big men in the league.
> 
> Thinking of guys with strong back to the basket games:
> 
> ...




Playing devils advocate here because I think it's important to have strength. Might those players have a hard time guarding someone as quick as either Aldridge or Noah. Also, Duncan said that Aldridge played defense on him pretty well...especially for a rookie. 

I also think Aldridge comes in next year with 15-20 more lbs on him. That would put him at 6'11" 265-270


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## 2k (Dec 30, 2005)

dudleysghost said:


> Ok, let's think about some of the big men in the league.
> 
> Thinking of guys with strong back to the basket games:
> 
> ...



You are naming a lot of guys that any young player would have problems with. I don’t think Oden could walk into the league and guard Randolph and Howard either. Oden is great off the ball but his post defense is stiff and he bites on movement. I would take Noah’s post defense over any center in the drafts with one exception. Maybe I would take Hibbard over the guys I named yesterday and Howard who is someone I forgot. I personally feel the league has gotten smaller not because of the style of play but because of the retirement of guys like Olajuwon, Robinson, and Ewing. Teams decided that its better to play the best player available at the 5 and not just some decent big guy. If Noah slipped to 7 or 8 I would not take him because of some ‘new style’ of play I would take him because he is the bpa. Some guys his size and smaller put up great rebounding numbers. If he is one of those guys he is a great upgrade over what the Blazers have at center now


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

2k said:


> You are naming a lot of guys that any young player would have problems with.


Young players are notoriously bad defenders. The guys I named though also give problems to NBA veterans though as well, especially if those veterans aren't strong enough. You are right that age is a good predictor of post defense and rebounding ability, but you are wrong if you think that somehow means that strength isn't also an important predictor.



2k said:


> he is a great upgrade over what the Blazers have at center now


Right now we have LaMarcus Aldridge starting at center, with Joel Przybilla likely backing him up next year. Noah wouldn't beat out either of them. He'd be lucky to beat out a healthy Raef LaFrentz for the backup PF minutes. Maybe you think Zach will get traded and Aldridge will slide to PF, and that Joel P and Raef will still be injured. If that's the case, then I'll agree that if we have enough big men injured or traded away, we'll eventually come to the point where Noah is the best remaining alternative.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

mediocre man said:


> Playing devils advocate here because I think it's important to have strength. Might those players have a hard time guarding someone as quick as either Aldridge or Noah. Also, Duncan said that Aldridge played defense on him pretty well...especially for a rookie.
> 
> I also think Aldridge comes in next year with 15-20 more lbs on him. That would put him at 6'11" 265-270


I agree that Aldridge can be, or eventually will be, a tough cover for plodding big men. That's true. Noah however ... not so much. He needs skills to be a reliable scorer in the NBA. There are big men, like Dirk Nowitzki and Amare, who require a high degree of quickness to guard. It's good if the guys on the roster have the capability to guard both types of player, and we already have one skinny/quick guy in Aldridge. Usually if a team has a Dirk in the starting lineup, there's also a Dampier next to him.

As for Duncan saying Aldridge played good defense on him; I didn't catch that. I didn't see the last game against the Spurs, but in the previous one Tim Duncan went right through Aldridge when they were matched up. All he did was give him a little bump, and Aldridge was moved from his spot. It was only a few times during the game, but each time Duncan either scored or drew a foul. It wasn't good.

And there's no way he puts on 15-20 lbs in the summer. Maybe 10 if he works very hard, although over the course of this year since the draft he has added some already. It's not really about pounds though, but rather strength. Aldridge will get stronger, but do we want him to be the banger in the lineup? Do we want him to be the one fighting for rebounds against the Dampiers of the league? Kevin Garnett, Chris Bosh and Jermaine O'Neal are all relatively slight big men who can abuse slow defenders, but all three have publicly requested of their GMs that they get a big banger center to play with them. One might accuse them of being pusses that don't want someone else to do the dirty work, but all three are very competitive and want to win, and I doubt they would make that request unless they thought it would make the team better.


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