# Derrick Rose to Knicks



## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/745696405860270081

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/745697701723987968
Ah, so...


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Ho. Lee. Shit.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

It isn't that it was totally unexpected, it just still seems surreal. The end of an era, even if the MVP D-Rose left us a while ago.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

Woj also now reporting that we're in talks to trade Butler to Heat (3-way with Raps).


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## 29380 (Feb 23, 2009)

King Joseus said:


> Woj also now reporting that we're in talks to trade Butler to Heat (3-way with Raps).


Fake account KJ


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

King Joseus said:


> Woj also now reporting that we're in talks to trade Butler to Heat (3-way with Raps).


Link?


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

Parody account got me. Stupid twitter.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

29380 said:


> Fake account KJ


Yeah, saw that.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

When analyzing a trade you have to look at what the goal for the team is.

Does this trade, alone, represent a clear move to "win later?" No. If the goal was to blow this team up, this is a step in the wrong direction, given the Lopez contract.

Does this trade, along, represent a clear move to "win now?" No. Even if we replaced Rose from last season with Lopez that won't move the needle in a meaningful way.

What does it actually accomplish for management?

It gets them off the hook for having to make a very hard decision next off-season regarding Derrick Rose, especially since he's going to be going balls-out to have a great season in his contract year, assuming the fire in his belly for such things still exists. And if Rose had a great season, it would be a management nightmare decision.

They also had a somewhat tough call regarding Noah. This move gets them off the hook on not bringing back a popular player.

The Bulls are not currently markedly better now then they were this morning. The Bulls might be worse off for this upcoming season, if Rose did have one monster contract year season left in the tank. But if that happened, management had an impossible choice.

Management now doesn't have to make that choice. That's why this trade was made.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

If anything, I would say this greatly decreases the likelihood of a Jimmy Butler trade and increase the likelihood that they bring back Pau.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

RollWithEm said:


> If anything, I would say this greatly decreases the likelihood of a Jimmy Butler trade and increase the likelihood that they bring back Pau.


It could. What to do with Robin though? Didn't they learn from their mistake from Gasol / Noah last season?


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## aleanguiano (Jun 22, 2016)

will derrick rose be able to reach the same level of play that he was at in his first years at chicago?


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

aleanguiano said:


> will derrick rose be able to reach the same level of play that he was at in his first years at chicago?


I would be shocked at that.

I would not be surprised to see a much more aggressive Rose willing to sacrifice his body this season, in order to secure another big contract. I'm unsure if that fire inside him exists anymore though, or if his body could hold up to that abuse.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

K4E said:


> It could. What to do with Robin though? Didn't they learn from their mistake from Gasol / Noah last season?


Don't you mean, didn't they learn from their mistake of Niko/Gasol last season?


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

RollWithEm said:


> Don't you mean, didn't they learn from their mistake of Niko/Gasol last season?


No. The Noah / Gasol mistake was having two starting caliber centers on the team at the same time when neither can really play the 4.

Also, the Bulls coach made a mistake in publicly saying Noah was cool coming off the bench when he wasn't.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

K4E said:


> No. The Noah / Gasol mistake was having two starting caliber centers on the team at the same time when neither can really play the 4.
> 
> Also, the Bulls coach made a mistake in publicly saying Noah was cool coming off the bench when he wasn't.


They didn't do that last year. They tried to go with shooting and spacing... and they did even worse than with Gasol/Noah starting together.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

RollWithEm said:


> If anything, I would say this greatly decreases the likelihood of a Jimmy Butler trade and increase the likelihood that they bring back Pau.


0.0% chance that they "bring back" Pau. The only way he comes back is if he exercises his option, which is exceedingly unlikely given he has said he will not.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> 0.0% chance that they "bring back" Pau. The only way he comes back is if he exercises his option, which is exceedingly unlikely given he has said he will not.


I don't follow. Why wouldn't they want to resign him after he opts out? He's been their second best player the last 2 seasons.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

I feel like this also paves the way for Dwight Howard to end up on the Knicks.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

I like the move quite a bit. The real question is this: Are you okay chewing up ~$14 million of cap space next season (while still projecting to have a max slot and then some) in order to lock down a good (but not great) starting 5 for 3 years for reasonable money and to get Jerian Grant? To me, that seems reasonable. Though it does have an impact on the 2017 cap, I would think that the Lopez contact is going to be thoroughly moveable once we see what Biyombo, Noah, etc. get this offseason.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> 0.0% chance that they "bring back" Pau. The only way he comes back is if he exercises his option, which is exceedingly unlikely given he has said he will not.


I thought so too, but Gar supposedly just said that Calderon gets along with Pau well, so who knows.

But your point... now that I read what you wrote  ... is that he won't exercise his option... so that does seem unlikely. Odd that they mentioned him. They can't think Calderon might induce Pau to stay?


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## aleanguiano (Jun 22, 2016)

K4E said:


> I would be shocked at that.
> 
> I would not be surprised to see a much more aggressive Rose willing to sacrifice his body this season, in order to secure another big contract. I'm unsure if that fire inside him exists anymore though, or if his body could hold up to that abuse.


excatly my thoughts. maybe the knicks will re-ignite fire within or will rose continue to play the way he has been lately?


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

RollWithEm said:


> I don't follow. Why wouldn't they want to resign him after he opts out? He's been their second best player the last 2 seasons.




They will have zero interest. None. Seriously. Local media does not treat it like it's even a remote possibility.

Pau doesn't defend. He plays away from the basket. The Bulls' stated mission is to get "younger and more athletic." Pau ain't that. He will also likely be fairly expensive, unless he's ring-chasing.

Pau seems like a great dude and he could be a nice piece for a team making a title run. That's not the Bulls anymore. They're a team in transition.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

RollWithEm said:


> I feel like this also paves the way for Dwight Howard to end up on the Knicks.


How about Jo Noah? Go to NY, reunite with Derrick, etc. I can easily see it.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> I thought so too, but Gar supposedly just said that Calderon gets along with Pau well, so who knows.
> 
> But your point... now that I read what you wrote  ... is that he won't exercise his option... so that does seem unlikely. Odd that they mentioned him. They can't think Calderon might induce Pau to stay?


Gar also said they were going to sit down with Noah to discuss a new deal on 7/1. Do you think that's really true in any meaningful sense?


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> Gar also said they were going to sit down with Noah to discuss a new deal on 7/1. Do you think that's really true in any meaningful sense?


I would think not.

Well, they might discuss a deal. But it probably won't be one that Noah wants to sign.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> They will have zero interest. None. Seriously. Local media does not treat it like it's even a remote possibility.
> 
> Pau doesn't defend. He plays away from the basket. The Bulls' stated mission is to get "younger and more athletic." Pau ain't that. He will also likely be fairly expensive, unless he's ring-chasing.
> 
> Pau seems like a great dude and he could be a nice piece for a team making a title run. That's not the Bulls anymore. They're a team in transition.


Fair enough.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> I like the move quite a bit. The real question is this: Are you okay chewing up ~$14 million of cap space next season (while still projecting to have a max slot and then some) in order to lock down a good (but not great) starting 5 for 3 years for reasonable money and to get Jerian Grant? To me, that seems reasonable. Though it does have an impact on the 2017 cap, I would think that the Lopez contact is going to be thoroughly moveable once we see what Biyombo, Noah, etc. get this offseason.


If the goal is to perhaps make the 1st round of the playoffs and get off the hook on tough decisions on Rose and Noah, this is a good move.

I think, based on what I think managements' goals are, its a good move.

If you are a Bulls fan interested in seeing the Bulls win the NBA Championship, its not really much of a move.

There is no doubt that Lopez seems like a good contract.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> How about Jo Noah? Go to NY, reunite with Derrick, etc. I can easily see it.


I guess he would be much cheaper, but I think Dwight has quite a bit more juice left.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> If the goal is to perhaps make the 1st round of the playoffs and get off the hook on tough decisions on Rose and Noah, this is a good move.
> 
> I think, based on what I think managements' goals are, its a good move.
> 
> ...



What would be the better course of action vis a vis Derrick Rose if the goal is to win a championship?


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Gar calling this a retooling lol wtf. It's like replacing name brand cereal with the generic brand.

I'm so sick of this franchise, all the bullshit they feed to the fanbase. Just be honest and say that rose was traded for the obvious fucking reasons, instead they spin it like they are making the team better. 

Trade Jimmy, fire everyone. I'm ready for new ownership.


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## aleanguiano (Jun 22, 2016)

would you rather start noah or gasol? both have playoff expereince. one has championships. finals game 7 who would you start?


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

thebizkit69u said:


> Gar calling this a retooling lol wtf. It's like replacing name brand cereal with the generic brand.
> 
> I'm so sick of this franchise, all the bullshit they feed to the fanbase. Just be honest and say that rose was traded for the obvious fucking reasons, instead they spin it like they are making the team better.
> 
> Trade Jimmy, fire everyone. I'm ready for new ownership.


Listening to Gar talk is like listening to a really shitty corporate middle manager prattle on.

Many transparent lies / half-truths coming out of his mouth.

As a Bulls fan, you can't take what he says at face value.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> When analyzing a trade you have to look at what the goal for the team is.
> 
> Does this trade, alone, represent a clear move to "win later?" No. If the goal was to blow this team up, this is a step in the wrong direction, given the Lopez contract.
> 
> ...


I think the bolded portion is pretty far off the mark. They just traded the most beloved Bull since MJ. In no way whatsoever did this get the front office "off the hook" for anything. They now have their necks stuck out there if Rose blows up this season.

The same is somewhat true if they let Noah walk.

This is very much the Bulls saying "we're moving on from these guys." The way they protect themselves with the fans is to take no action and have Rose/Noah move on for greener pastures, allowing the FO to say "we tried."


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## aleanguiano (Jun 22, 2016)

new to this forum how do i check my replies? would be greatly appreciated?


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> I think the bolded portion is pretty far off the mark. They just traded the most beloved Bull since MJ. In no way whatsoever did this get the front office "off the hook" for anything. They now have their necks stuck out there if Rose blows up this season.


Right, but they would have been in even worse shape if he blew it up this season for the Bulls.

That would have been a nightmare scenario and an impossible choice for GarPax.

Now they don't have to make it.

And they don't really like dealing with BJ / Reggie / Team Rose.

But you are right, if he blows up on the Knicks, they may catch some heat.




> This is very much the Bulls saying "we're moving on from these guys." The way they protect themselves with the fans is to take no action and have Rose/Noah move on for greener pastures, allowing the FO to say "we tried."



Not if Rose wanted to earn that 2nd monster deal this season and had one more season in him. Letting him walk makes them look terrible. Resigning him for market value is probably something they didn't want to do. 

If Rose was still meh Rose, you are right, then they had their out by letting him walk. Bulls would have been better off for the rebuild most likely as well, with increased cap space.

Lopez is a good contract, but doesn't really help you tank or win something of note.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

aleanguiano said:


> new to this forum how do i check my replies? would be greatly appreciated?


You should see it in the "Your Notifications" thing under your username at the top right of the screen.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> What would be the better course of action vis a vis Derrick Rose if the goal is to win a championship?


Can you think of any other way these Bulls can acquire a superstar other than high lotto picks?

They have not shown the ability to trade for one or acquire one via FA.

That leaves getting high lotto picks either by trade or losing.

But, given GarPax are calling the shots and lucked into the Rose pick and didn't realize how much of the winning they trumpet was due to Thibs, it really might not matter. 

Its going to be really hard to luck into another #1 pick and have a cabinet member give the owner a hot tip on a world-class coach again.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> Right, but they would have been in even worse shape if he blew it up this season for the Bulls.
> 
> That would have been a nightmare scenario and an impossible choice for GarPax.
> 
> ...


What are the chances Rose plays at a very high level this year? Not great, based on the last four seasons. Is it really the better move to just watch him walk in free agency, particularly given reports that Rose did not want to stay? To me, it'd be irresponsible to do anything other than deal him for the best possible return.





> Not if Rose wanted to earn that 2nd monster deal this season and had one more season in him. Letting him walk makes them look terrible. Resigning him for market value is probably something they didn't want to do.
> 
> If Rose was still meh Rose, you are right, then they had their out by letting him walk. Bulls would have been better off for the rebuild most likely as well, with increased cap space.
> 
> Lopez is a good contract, but doesn't really help you tank or win something of note.


Lopez is good enough to be the 5 on a competing team, but not good enough to carry anyone. Basically, he's a fit whether you're in team tank or team compete. His deal is also cheap enough that it can be moved if better options come along.

Would you rather just roll with Felicio next year? You do have to put out some sort of roster.


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## aleanguiano (Jun 22, 2016)

jnrjr79 said:


> You should see it in the "Your Notifications" thing under your username at the top right of the screen.


thank you!


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> Can you think of any other way these Bulls can acquire a superstar other than high lotto picks?
> 
> They have not shown the ability to trade for one or acquire one via FA.
> 
> ...


I reject the idea that the Bulls can only rebuild through the draft, so yes, I don't find this particularly compelling. But let's accept your premise. You should be for this deal. The only downside of this deal is potentially long-term cap space, which you contend is not an asset. Do you really think that Lopez, Grant, and Calderon prevent tank aspirations next season? Heck, getting a 2nd year first round pick PG and giving him big minutes is exactly what a team would do if trying to tank and build around young guys.

If you want high picks, the only option is to move Jimmy. And that's fine, but that has nothing to do with whether the Rose deal was good or bad.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> I reject the idea that the Bulls can only rebuild through the draft, so yes, I don't find this particularly compelling.


What evidence do you have that GarPax or Pax have the ability to land the needed 1A talent by other means?




> But let's accept your premise. You should be for this deal. The only downside of this deal is potentially long-term cap space, which you contend is not an asset. Do you really think that Lopez, Grant, and Calderon prevent tank aspirations next season?


I'm not really for it or against it. I have little faith they will hit in FA, so the cap space isn't worth much. But its a chance. Lopez isn't a real difference maker one way or the other. They will probably just overpay a Ryan Anderson or Harrison Barnes type.

Its just sad really, to see what happened with the insane luck of getting the Rose pick and actually getting a MVP level player, and have it all fall apart.

Sad day to see the book closed on Rose.

Its not a bad trade for what management wants to do with the team.



> If you want high picks, the only option is to move Jimmy. And that's fine, but that has nothing to do with whether the Rose deal was good or bad.


High picks via trade or losing. I have little faith in this management team making trades or landing free agents to land a superstar.

This roster might make the 1st round of the playoffs and finish above .500. That's the goal and they very well might get back there.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> What are the chances Rose plays at a very high level this year? Not great, based on the last four seasons. Is it really the better move to just watch him walk in free agency, particularly given reports that Rose did not want to stay? To me, it'd be irresponsible to do anything other than deal him for the best possible return.


I don't really know. He has diminished physically, but I never knew how much of his decline was "want to."

Is he going to try to make the violent cuts and take the nightly beatings he took during his MVP season again to earn another big deal? I don't know.

If he reaches maximum "want to" again, can he be a top NBA guy physically? I don't know.






> Would you rather just roll with Felicio next year? You do have to put out some sort of roster.


Yah, either way, they are not contending for a title.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Jimmy Butler for Kevin Martin and Andre Miller plus a future top 30 protected first rounder. Get it done garpax.


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## aleanguiano (Jun 22, 2016)

its a longshot but what if by some divine miracle the bulls were able to pick up kevin durant?


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Grade for Knicks B+

Dump Robin Lopez to Diaper bag 

Grade for Bulls F

Find the Bulls Sxxt in the diaper bag

Robin is worth 4 million, Knicks paid him 54 Mil.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> What evidence do you have that GarPax or Pax have the ability to land the needed 1A talent by other means?


If you believe the reports, their presentations to LBJ and Carmelo were much better received than others bidding for their services. Obviously, the big fish have not been landed, though, so I agree there is no real guarantee there. But I'm not down for a scenario where the Bulls just give up 2 of the 3 methods of team building. I think we're both in agreement that a new FO is called for at this point, but we also know it's not coming this year.




> I'm not really for it or against it. I have little faith they will hit in FA, so the cap space isn't worth much. But its a chance. Lopez isn't a real difference maker one way or the other. They will probably just overpay a Ryan Anderson or Harrison Barnes type.


That scenario is my biggest concern and would be a big mistake.



> Its just sad really, to see what happened with the insane luck of getting the Rose pick and actually getting a MVP level player, and have it all fall apart.
> 
> Sad day to see the book closed on Rose.


I agree. Rose's injury luck has been hugely unfortunate.



> Its not a bad trade for what management wants to do with the team.


I know that's a dig, but the fact is it's "not a bad trade" for anyone, not just what this FO wants to accomplish, which you seem to acknowledge because you do not suggest they should have done anything differently in this particular instance.




> High picks via trade or losing. I have little faith in this management team making trades or landing free agents to land a superstar.
> 
> This roster might make the 1st round of the playoffs and finish above .500. That's the goal and they very well might get back there.


I agree there isn't much reason to believe this FO can get it done. Having Gar stand up there today and brag about how many above .500 seasons they've had was incredibly grating. I don't think many people give a shit about that level of "success."


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Ballscientist said:


> Grade for Knicks B+
> 
> Dump Robin Lopez to Diaper bag
> 
> ...



Wonderful analysis. Thanks for contributing.


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## Ma Baker (May 12, 2015)

Stupidest thing we have ever done ! He served this team for years and they just got rid of him for 34 years old Calderon and Lopez and whatever!


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Trade is what it is. I'm just done with the front office. They fully believe that rose was the reason nobody took Fred Hoiberg serious. 

If only the Bulls and ownership would put as much effort into winning and talent development as they did when they wrote up a letter aimed at their former coach...


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

thebizkit69u said:


> Trade is what it is. I'm just done with the front office. They fully believe that rose was the reason nobody took Fred Hoiberg serious.
> 
> If only the Bulls and ownership would put as much effort into winning and talent development as they did when they wrote up a letter aimed at their former coach...



It seems like many people in this town are pretty negative on GarPax at this point.

If they thought their machinations would make them come out of dumping Thibs, Rose and Noah and replacing them with Hoiball looking good, they thought wrong.

They are still collecting checks though and the head coach isn't showing them up anymore. They have bought time. More checks. 

GarPax are started to be hated in this town by more than just a minority. Thibs is universally respected around the league.

If they can get these Bulls actually contending again though, they will look OK. They thought they were better than Thibs. Now they have to prove it with having a contending team again.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> I know that's a dig, but the fact is it's "not a bad trade" for anyone, not just what this FO wants to accomplish, which you seem to acknowledge because you do not suggest they should have done anything differently in this particular instance.


The other options were to keep Rose. Or hold off for another offer.

There is a percent chance he's going to have a good year wanting that next contract. Perhaps they catch lightning in a bottle for this one season.

If it doesn't work out, let him walk and you have more Cap Space to sign 2 FAs. 

They didn't have to trade for a guy that eats into Cap Space for next season. Lopez is a good value contract, but he's not a guy that really moves the needle.

There are / were other options.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

Asumming Pau walks, this team will have some cap space to make a move.


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## RyanNiel (Jun 23, 2016)

I think that if the Knicks can get Pau or Dwight, they will be contenders next year for the East.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Trade is what it is. I'm just done with the front office. *They fully believe that rose was the reason nobody took Fred Hoiberg serious. *
> 
> If only the Bulls and ownership would put as much effort into winning and talent development as they did when they wrote up a letter aimed at their former coach...


Do they?


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> The other options were to keep Rose. Or hold off for another offer.
> 
> There is a percent chance he's going to have a good year wanting that next contract. Perhaps they catch lightning in a bottle for this one season.
> 
> ...


Yes, and it's pretty obvious you are not endorsing either of those options as superior.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

You don't trade him for scraps if you believed that he was a fit with Hoiberg and Butler. You can't have 2 guys ignoring their coach at the same time, now they just have one.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> You don't trade him for scraps if you believed that he was a fit with Hoiberg and Butler. You can't have 2 guys ignoring their coach at the same time, now they just have one.


You trade him because he sucks at basketball and was leaving next year anyway. I don't really see this as as Hoiberg fit issue, as such.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> Yes, and it's pretty obvious you are not endorsing either of those options as superior.


At some point, you have to trust the highly paid front office to make the right calls. They certainly have much more access to information than I do.

We'll know if they made the right call here soon enough.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> At some point, you have to trust the highly paid front office to make the right calls. They certainly have much more access to information than I do.
> 
> We'll know if they made the right call here soon enough.


Lol, amazing.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> You trade him because he sucks at basketball and was leaving next year anyway. I don't really see this as as Hoiberg fit issue, as such.


Well he doesn't suck. So let's stop that nonsense. 

This was not a basketball related move per say. It had more to do with fit. The relationship with Rose and his camp eroded to a point of not being salvageable.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> Lol, amazing.


That GarPax are still collecting checks? Yah.


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