# Toronto Interested in Matt Barnes



## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

From Hoopshype.com-rumors:
As of late Sunday, according to a source, the Cavs were still in the running for Barnes -- though their opposition was formidable, with the Lakers, Celtics and Heat, along with Toronto, all making strong pitches. NBA.com

http://hoopshype.com/rumors/tag/toronto_raptors

Barnes would be a good addition, but I wonder how much would the contract offer be? It would also create a huge congestion in the wings. I'd probably just let Weems/Kleiza play it out, and try to sign an all-star with the capspace next year, or the TPE. 

Calderon / Jack / Banks
Derozan / Barbosa / Bellineli
Barnes / Weems / Kleiza
Johnson / Davis / Dorsey?
Bargnani / Evans / Alabi?

ps - if you keep reading the rumors, there was one for us looking into Adam Morrison. Heck no please don't even get near there BC.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

I'm indifferent either way. We sign him great, he's a decent player. If we don't, I'm not gonna cry 'cos adding Barnes isn't going to drag us to the playoffs. 

If were not going to make a big move for a superstar, nothing will matter. I won't be interested in role players we bring in because I'm already invested in the Young Gunz.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

he is a very good defender and can play up tempo would easily replace Wright as prime perimter defender.
Sign him

Trade Jose for a back up PG and a back up C

we should of went after barnes instead of Hedu.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

This would be a bad move imo. We already have Kleiza, Weems, Belli, Barbosa, DeRozan at the 2/3, theres no space for another mediocre wing.

This is what the Raptors should do for the rest of the summer and year. Try to dump Calderon's contract for guys with shorter contracts, 1-2 years preferably. Tank for the season (not really an option because we're going to lose either way), draft a point guard or trade the pick for Ricky Rubio and then go from there.


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## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

seifer0406 said:


> This would be a bad move imo. We already have Kleiza, Weems, Belli, Barbosa, DeRozan at the 2/3, theres no space for another mediocre wing.
> 
> This is what the Raptors should do for the rest of the summer and year. Try to dump Calderon's contract for guys with shorter contracts, 1-2 years preferably. Tank for the season (not really an option because we're going to lose either way), draft a point guard or trade the pick for Ricky Rubio and then go from there.


probably agree more than i disagree. Barnes is not an elite player, and will command MLE type of money for a number of years. I'd prefer saving up for 'big fish'.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Barnes is signed. 2 year deal for about 9 mil with player option on year 2. Don't really like the signing as he will take away minutes from Weems/DeRozan.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

He's a solid player, but he's a journeyman. Agreed that he wasn't required if you plan on developing Weems, which you should be.

He's not gonna get you to the playoffs. Still, he will add outside shooting and some much need toughness.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Overpaid


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

It's reported to be a sign&trade. I guess I'll reserve opinion until I see the big picture. For all I know this could involve Calderon, I doubt it though.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

BC is proving more and more to be a moron. looks like he just got lucky with steve nash.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

lol the deal might be dead

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5393637



> Veteran swingman Matt Barnes, one of the most coveted free agents left on the open market, announced Monday night that he is headed to the Toronto Raptors.
> 
> But the limited sign-and-trade options available to Orlando -- Barnes' last team -- could scuttle the deal, according to sources close to the situation.
> 
> Under the impression that he would be receiving a two-year contract in the $10 million range, Barnes thanked Magic fans via his Twitter feed and said that he'll be "playing for the Toronto Raptors" next season.


This is too funny. Unlike the Chandler deal this might be good for us.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Colangelo really need to calm down and actually think about what he's doing. I don't think a lot of effort was put into this move if they can't even calculate the salary correctly to make this work. Seems like Colangelo is desperate and is making moves for the sake of making them.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

This was/is a short contract for a vet player that could teach our young wings a few things going forward. I think having a guy who has played deep in the playoffs, has been with both bad and good teams, who is a solid defender, and who is a good rebounder from the small forward spot could be a nice mentor for the young kids. All of Hedos minutes are available as well as Wrights, thats 50 minutes right there, playing time will be available for Weems and Derozan no question.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Just looks like more of the same old BC to me. Rushing into signings without a plan, other than 'flexibility'. Embarrassing moment for Raps FO to not conduct proper due diligence on financial side of deal. And yet another PHX tie with Barnes - big surprise. BC left his brain in PHX - every decision in TOR has a PHX connection to it. Even the disrespect of draft picks that was blamed on Sarver.

Our young guys need PT. You learn by playing against the best. And the organization needs to see them play big minutes to make informed decisions about them going forward. What good is Barnes for 2 years when you will have to replace him and start over again, perhaps losing a Weems in the process if he feels held back this year and next.

Top 5 in the East is locked down by MIA, CHI, ORL, BOS, and ATL in some order. MIL is a solid 6. So the best possible outcome for a 'retooled' Raps team is 7/8 seed. You don't sacrifice development for that. Not much good being in the playoffs if your young pieces are not even playing important minutes in those playoffs.

Where was EdDavis going to get minutes behind Bargs, Amir, Chandler. Bosh was thrown to the wolves as a rook and developed quickly. That is how it works. Guys on short leashes don't develop as quickly

Barnes and Kleiza are signings we needed 2 or 3 years ago, not today. If we went that route instead of Parker/Garbo we would have been on a proper path to building something instead of temp fixes with older non-nba players.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i don't know what colangelo is doing anymore. it seems out of control. he might be on the brink of a nervous breakdown. not seriously but... seriously. 

peace


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

BC is not a Gzm that will put a team out to just tank it, qith Barnes it gives us a good athetlic wing that can play good Defense, it will be good for Weems, DD to watch him play and learn.
Barnes is the type of player we need to build with in 2 years our perimter D would be better and with him we have a shut down defender.
They are still trying to make it work most likely we will hear something tonite or tomm on where they stand.


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## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

Kleiza hasn't been formally introduced for a reason ... maybe working a sign and trade. This would prevent the use of the full MLE, and use it to get Barnes. 

Calderon(9M) + TPE(6M) for Kleiza(5M) + Nene(11M)

Sign Barnes with MLE

Jarret Jack / Leandro Barbosa
Demar Derozan / Sonny Weems
Matt Barnes / Linas Kleiza
Andrea Bargnani / Ed Davis
Nene / Amir Johnson

Helps our capspace long-term, we become more athletic.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

changv10 said:


> Kleiza hasn't been formally introduced for a reason ... maybe working a sign and trade. This would prevent the use of the full MLE, and use it to get Barnes.
> 
> Calderon(9M) + TPE(6M) for Kleiza(5M) + Nene(11M)
> 
> ...


apart from nene, i think this is exactly what's happening: negotiating a kleiza S&T to bring barnes in by MLE.

we already had too many players in the rotation last year and it seems like we're just adding more and more:

1: jack, calderon, banks
2: derozan, barbosa, belinelli
3: weems, kleiza, barnes
4: bargnani, davis, evans
5: amir, alabi, dorsey 

*+TPE*

i mean, i wouldn't even know who's starting (or where to start). calderon's probably gone but... who knows? and when it comes to the wing, how many minutes are available? the league still plays 12:00 quarters, right? still one ball? are we planning to play 7 on 5?

there is something to be said for depth. but this is not depth; this is confusion and wild ass guessing to fill a huge hole (chris bosh).

do we really need to use kleiza and barnes- both?!- to acquire the other? it just feels like we're grasping at straws. we needed to refine our rotation and our needs haven't changed... at all. i think barbosa (without calderon) is a good fit but the rest of these guys are just hoping to stick somewhere. it's a recipe for disaster, quite honestly.  and while i like triano, he's the last coach on earth i'd hire to piece this puzzle together. it's not like he has a reputation that can sell his confused players on colangelo's peculiar roster logic.

carlesimo may already be sharpening his pencil because colangelo's (imo) setting up jay triano to be his goat.

this summer has been... unforgettable, let's just say that.

peace


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

Im alright with looking to sign Barnes. Sure, he duplicates a lot of the other things that Kleiza, Weems, and Demar may look to do on the court, but the kicker for me is that hes another body who plays the brand and style of basketball that BC wants to play. 

I may not have agreed with all the decisions that BC has made since his first season as Raps GM, but he does have a decent track record of winning and now with Bosh gone, he has more leeway to work the roster around to play basketball the way he sees fit. We're seeing his fingerprints all over this roster now. 

Everyone can run and is athletic. We have (outside of Bargnani), guys who will scrap and claw and get up and down the court. Guys who can grab a rebound and start a break, which wasnt something you could do with Bosh who was more adjusted and played better in a half court set. You cant adopt a system that just doesnt work with the best player on your team. With Bargnani, he will be that trailer who can spot outside for a 3ball so a running game can work with him, unlike with Bosh. You run at Bargs and he drives by you; if you dont take the shot away, he pops it.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Barnes absolutely loves the Raps and MLSE.

When he heard they were run by a pension fund he figured that was perfect for a guy looking to retire with a good income. So he jumped at the chance. Apparently Turk told him all the good drinking spots and how to fake a legit illness when he is hungover.

Shame he won't be here next year. Maybe next year BC can grab him with a 5yr/35mill offer. After all he played for PHX and the Raps have not completed the PHX collection yet.

Old guys chasing money on a lotto team always ends badly. BC doesn't get it.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

lucky777s said:


> Barnes absolutely loves the Raps and MLSE.
> 
> When he heard they were run by a pension fund he figured that was perfect for a guy looking to retire with a good income. So he jumped at the chance. Apparently Turk told him all the good drinking spots and how to fake a legit illness when he is hungover.
> 
> ...


Well to be fair the original deal with a 2 year deal for 9 mil. Barnes would've likely gotten that sort of money elsewhere but he decided to come to Toronto. Perhaps he felt that we are a bad team and he can put up some good numbers or perhaps he has a relationship with BC, but I doubt money was a key factor in this.

Barnes is the type of guy we needed last year. He's a good wing defender and a decent scorer, something that we desperately needed for years. However now that we're developing our young players there really is no need for him in Toronto. I have no interest in turning this team into the Warriors of the North and have a lineup of 4 guards and Bargnani. Hopefully this isn't BC's direction.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

we need a legit SF, for weems to play more at SFhehasgot to beable to hit 3's.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

weems can hit the 3. he may not hit that many in games yet but he really hasn't had a whole lot of oppurtunity. guy can shoot the 3. if he starts taking attempts next year, his career 3p% will go up. he can definitely shoot around 35% clip at least.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

c_dog said:


> weems can hit the 3. he may not hit that many in games yet but he really hasn't had a whole lot of oppurtunity. guy can shoot the 3. if he starts taking attempts next year, his career 3p% will go up. he can definitely shoot around 35% clip at least.


No way in hell Weems hits 35% from 3 this year or next. He needs to develope range, but he is not a 3point shooter, he needs to keep teams honest, but he will never be considered a 3 point shooter, and 35% puts you in that range.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

that idea with Denver would be great, if we cant use the tpe 4.4 on Barnes and than try to trade jose for a back up vet C like a haywood, Dalembert. I dont think our staff wants to move bargs to PF he would be better say with a C like Dalembert to help with the dirty work.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Weems averaged about 20% from 3pt land during the summer league. He can not hit the three at the rate required. 

Where in the world do you pull this stuff from c-dog?


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

I don't think Barnes had any offers even close to what TOR offered. That is why he is now faced with the choice of going to a contender for 1 mill or a crap team for around 2 mill per. I dont' think he is still considering TOR for that same 2 mill that other teams are offering.

As for Weems shooting, how many 3's did he even attempt in SL. I doubt the sample size is large enough to have any significance. Even great shooters can have a bad stretch of 4-5 games.

To me his mid range shot is so solid that I don't believe adding the range will be a huge issue if he puts in the time. 35% is good but 40% is the new benchmark for 3pt shooting. That is where the best shooters are now, so 35% is very attainable. Heck, he would still be missing 65% of them to put it in perspective. I think Kap was even 50% for a season wasn't he?


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## Raptor (Feb 26, 2004)

Any update about Matt Barnes, I just heard that Scola go to Toronto, not sure it is true or not.
with Barnes and Scola Wow looking good


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Raptor said:


> Any update about Matt Barnes, I just heard that Scola go to Toronto, not sure it is true or not.
> with Barnes and Scola Wow looking good


Scola didn't say that he's going Toronto. He said he might have been a Raptor if Bosh decided to go to Houston via sign&trade.

Barnes deal is dead as far as I know. The Raptors are competing with the rest of the teams that are interested in him and likely have less money to offer than the rest of them.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Scola doesnt fit in now here , we need a athlethic wing, maybe bring Wright back but just play him at the 3, thier cant be a big market for Wright a 2 yr 7 mill deal sounds reasonable if we can get hium back as it seems BC is having a real hard time trying to move Jose maybe just retain wright and get Dalembert for Jose.
Or make commuincation with Paul, who has to realize that list of teams he gave last nite none are gonna pay big to aquire him, maybe NYK trades Felton and picks for Paul, we all know thier FO draft is whack.

We have the fin flexibility the Hornets want to get rid of Paul as well as draft picks.
If BC wants to save his job he should try to get Paul.
Overpaying for Barnes will not help in our retooling process,m I hate how BC always says retools at this point it should just be rebuilding!.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

Porn_Player said:


> Weems averaged about 20% from 3pt land during the summer league. He can not hit the three at the rate required.
> 
> Where in the world do you pull this stuff from c-dog?


from watching weems play and from having faith in weems. the guy seems to have good mechanics on his jumpshot and is a good midrange shooter, which is definitely encouraging. and he did shoot .366% in college and .370 his second year there

http://www.hogstats.com/players/player.php?id=248

the nba 3 is farther out, but i have faith that he can do it.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

looks we are outta the barnes sweepstakes so whats plan C for SF

A was Diaw
B was Barnes
C leave it with Klieza and Weems
D sign insert name here_______ T-Mac


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

We can go into the next season with our current roster and I wouldn't have a problem with it. 

imo unless you can get some young talent/pick I would only consider trading Calderon for now.

As of now our lineup is

Bargnani/Amir/Dorsey
Ed Davis/Reggie Evans
Kleiza/Weems
DeRozan/Barbosa
Calderon/jack

Even if we don't trade Calderon I'm ok with this lineup. This will guarantee us a 25 win season and a high lottery pick.

If we can't trade Calderon now it's not that big of a deal. We can wait until midseason and perhaps a team will lose their PG to injury and they'll be looking for a quick fix. Calderon also becomes more trade-able next year when theres only 2 yr instead of 3 left on his contract.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Funny, ended up working out for you guys!


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> Bargnani/Amir/Dorsey
> Ed Davis/Reggie Evans
> Kleiza/Weems
> DeRozan/Barbosa
> Calderon/jack


this is the lineup i want. of course i would rather that we didn't sign kleiza and just make sure that weems get plenty of burn at sf, but it's too late to complain about kleiza at this point.

i'm glad we didn't get barnes. i never wanted him near the team at all. taking minutes away from weems and derozan is the last thing we need.

i rather we keep bellineli or something... even that is better than barnes because at least we know who the starter is.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

he toke the easy route at signing for 2 yrsa 3.1 mill when us ands the cavs were willing to pay him 4+ mill, looks like he replaces Powell who they dont intend to retain. Looks like Barnes will back up Kobe and Artest maybe he plays 20 MPG not much more.

I have been reading Doug Smith expects something big to some extent to happen withen the next week.
It is expected he adds a C.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

I was indifferent when we were rumoured to sign him, I'm now relieved he went with the Lakers. Decent player we have no need for.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

if we had him we would have a shutdown defender at the 3 what the team really needs, and With Barnes D we possibly could hgave been a 50 caliber team the guy brings it on both ends and with a young team we  would really need a vet to help close out games, thier is no doubt we will have plenty of scorers.
I think if BC and Jay are fine with Klieza and Weems than BC needs to add a C like Dalrembert and get rid of jose go with a unit of:
Jack Barbosa Weems Bargnani Dalembert Jhonson Davis Klieza Banks Alabi

Run n gun team if Bargnani steps up could be 500 caliber.


Successful Trade Scenario
Congratulations on a successful trade.
Due to Toronto being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Toronto had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.
Trade ID
Trade ID #5637513



Toronto Trade Breakdown
Change in Team Outlook: -5.6 ppg, +3.7 rpg, and -5.4 apg. 
Incoming Players 
Samuel Dalembert
6-11 C from Seton Hall
8.1 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 0.8 apg in 25.9 minutes 
Outgoing Players 
Jose Calderon
6-3 PG from Spain (Foreign)
10.3 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 5.9 apg in 26.7 minutes 
Reggie Evans
6-8 PF from Iowa
3.4 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.3 apg in 11.1 minutes 
Sacramento Trade Breakdown
Change in Team Outlook: +5.6 ppg, -3.7 rpg, and +5.4 apg. 
Incoming Players 
Jose Calderon
6-3 PG from Spain (Foreign)
10.3 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 5.9 apg in 26.7 minutes 
Reggie Evans
6-8 PF from Iowa
3.4 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 0.3 apg in 11.1 minutes 
Outgoing Players 
Samuel Dalembert
6-11 C from Seton Hall
8.1 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 0.8 apg in 25.9 minutes 


Read more: http://www.realgm.com/src_tradechecker/3/#ixzz0uWYcR8Z6


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

^ Dalembert gets a lot of hate over on the Sixers forum. Alot of the gripes seem to be about his on court focus, he really drifts in and out of games. I like bringing in a defensive C, is there nobody out there better than Dalembert?

Oh and did you really think adding Barnes would have turned us into a 50 win team? You're about as crazy as c-dog if so.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

No way in hell that the Kings trade Delembert for Calderon. The reason they traded for Dalembert is to shed salary. They gave up Nocioni and Spencer Hawes for the guy, why would they just turn around and trade him for more salaries? The Kings are happy with Beno Udrih as their PG. They have to use him because he has 3 years at 7 mil per left, which is kind of like a mini Calderon type contract. 

I've followed some of your trade ideas and so far none of them made a lick of sense. Both teams have to benefit from a trade. You can't just make up stuff where the Raptors make out like bandits and the other team just takes it from behind.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Since we're on the Jose topic, I've looked through all the teams rosters quite a few times and these are the only possibilities that I see right now.

1. Calderon to Bobcats for Boris Diaw

I wouldn't do this because Diaw's contract is only a year shorter than Jose's and we would be short a PG because of the trade. Unless Bobcats give us more this wouldn't help our team

2. Calderon + Reggie Evans to Dallas for Jason Terry and Ajinca

Dallas wants some insurance for Kidd because of his age plus they have other options at SG with Stevenson and Beaubois. Toronto gets a nice C prospect in Ajinca and Terry's contract is 1 yr shorter and the guy imo is a better player than Calderon.

3. Calderon to Indiana for Dunleevy or Troy Murphy

Probably makes the most sense for both teams. Indiana needs a PG and have better options for both players(Granger at SF for Dunleevy, Tyler Hansbrough for Murphy). Whoever Toronto gets become a trade chip or simply allow his contract to expire at the end of the year.

Beyond these 3 I don't really see any good possibilities. BC will have to add the TPE and take on a much overpaid player and I don't think that's any good for us.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

Porn_Player said:


> Oh and did you really think adding Barnes would have turned us into a 50 win team? You're about as crazy as c-dog if so.


this team couldn't make the playoffs with bosh. even if the young gunz improve and we add barnes, i don't think this team can make the playoffs either.

and i may be crazy but i'm always right. i was right about weems and derozan being valueable assets to the team(nobody believed weems was a player last summer except me), and i was right about andrea sucking. you can keep being complacent with andrea but i'm so sick of him.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)




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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Calderon for Dunleavy JR do that


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

There is no great C to sign as a back up I was loking at a list and Haywood I think would be best to sign, younger than Rasho decent on the glass would bring plenty of experience to help Amir and Davis.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Calderon for Troy Murphy do it and go with
Jack Barbosa Murphy Jhonson Bargnani Derozan Davis Klieza Weems Banks Evans 

I dont know if that is a 25+ win team if anything Bargnani will have to become consistent and Amir has got to be a force, I am thinking numbers wise if this team say with Murphy to win more than 25 games and be around 500 we would likely need:
Bargnani 21 PPG 7 RPG Barbosa 16 PPG Jhonson 15 PPG 8 RPG Weems 9 PPG 4 RPG 2 SPG

to be a 500 team or something close to that this team needs a vet to bring the team close together, lets see if BC can move jose Kliezastill has not been introduced something has got to be up.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

JYD i think it's safe to say that weems will be averaging more points than barbosa. i would be mad if barbosa ends up with more minutes than weems.

weems will average double digits next season. maybe around 12-14 points depending on his minutes. barbosa will average around 8-10 off the bench. amir if he gets starter minutes should get around 12ish as well.

the key next season is to just let the young guys get better. if by some luck they make drastic improvement we might see them fight for a playoff spot. but with our franchise player just bolting on the team i think even fighting for the playoffs is a bit optimistic. it'll be a fun team to watch though, with calderon finding the young guys.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

C dog I dont want Calderon finding the young kids I think and most rap fans will agree his D is just dismall and when rebuilding he is the wrong type of PG to have here.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

Junkyard Dog13 said:


> C dog I dont want Calderon finding the young kids I think and most rap fans will agree his D is just dismall and when rebuilding he is the wrong type of PG to have here.


that's the wrong consensus among these boards. jose calderon will be in all-star form next season playing with these guys. for the first time in his career he may be on the floor with 4 athletes who can catch lobs from anywhere on the offensive end. he can bring the best out of this team.

jarret jack is a veteran and has become a good scorer but he doesn't have the passing ability of calderon.

i don't think calderon's D is that bad(it was decent under sam mitch but triano does not preach defense as much as he should). and really, if you want to develop the young guys you need somebody who can feed them and mentor them. we're going to lose games even with the best defense guard in the league anyway. you think rondo will be able to save this team from winning much more than 25 games?


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

passing wise he may have a year like 06-07 when he like avg 11 assists backing up TJ.
D wide man to man he is jus terrible , I rather have a rugged guy like Banks as the back up,m the hustle and intensity Jack and Barbosa & Banks would bring I rather have.
Cdog any wlite PG like Nelson, Rondo, Paul will eat Jose. Jose's awareness is not good on the D end as to antcipating things, his pick up is poor.
Can have a steady play of Jack as the Starter and than go 4 run n gun with Barosa Belilni Weems Davis Jhonson


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

Junkyard Dog13 said:


> passing wise he may have a year like 06-07 when he like avg 11 assists backing up TJ.
> D wide man to man he is jus terrible , I rather have a rugged guy like Banks as the back up,m the hustle and intensity Jack and Barbosa & Banks would bring I rather have.
> Cdog any wlite PG like Nelson, Rondo, Paul will eat Jose. Jose's awareness is not good on the D end as to antcipating things, his pick up is poor.
> Can have a steady play of Jack as the Starter and than go 4 run n gun with Barosa Belilni Weems Davis Jhonson


you rather have banks playing over jose? that is just ridiculous. every single in the executive would play jose over bank, it's not even a question. and the 0.01% that would prefer banks get fired. that is a ridiculous statement.

and sure, you can prefer nelson, rondo, and paul(who wouldn't prefer paul), but with the exception of paul neither nelson or rondo can make this team much better next year. his D may be worse than these guys but offensively he would be a clear #2 among these guys with his passing. like i said, if you're worried about developing about the young guys and less worried about winning games, then jose is perfect because he's the perfect mentor who would have a field day on offense with the guys that we have.

and jarrett jack would not help us win more basketball games than calderon. offensively he's just doesn't have the passing ability. he would be one of the worst starters in the nba if he were to start and the bottom 3 pg in passing.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I actually think Jack would be better than Calderon next year for us because of his ability to penetrate and score 1 on 1. Granted he's not the best guy at doing such the Raptors just don't have anyone else to dump the ball to late in the shotclock. Jose is a good PG when he has a lot of offensive options on the team but on a team like ours there just aren't that many. He is going to be stuck playing pick and roll with Bargs or Amir and though he can throw lobs to the young guns, that's not something you can rely on to score. When Calderon was most effective it was off pick and rolls and finding shooters like Parker/Kapono/Wright and we just don't have those guys any more. 

One more thing about Barbosa, don't be surprised if you see him average 16+ next year. He is in a contract year and playing on a losing team with nothing to play for gives him the green light to just jack up shots.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Jack is not scared to take charges or drive hard. had it not been for MJ we would of made out like Bandits, whats mj gonna do rely on Livingtston thats smart.
Maybe MJ still wants to dump Diaw He cant think a duo of Livingston and Augestine
if so he is still a lousy evaluator at talent, Bobcats will prob be worse than us.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

see this is what i don't understand. you guys are fine with BC overprotecting a young guy like bargnani underachieving--playing uninspiringly and not rebounding, and yet you guys are so tough on calderon who aside from an injury plagued season has played with a lot of fire and intensity. he has great chemistry with the young guys on the team and they seem to enjoy playing together. and you guys still want him gone? his poor D is even in part magnified by bargnani's inability to contest any shots inside.

@seifer: i've said jarret jack has become a good scorer so your point of him being 1 on 1 doesn't not counter the point of him being a poor play maker and among the worst passing starting pg's if he were to start. he can score but he can't pass. we need someone to feed amir johnson so he can play up to his contract and fill in the void at pf. we need someone to boost the confidence of weems and derozan by giving them encouragement and easy looks during games.

@JYD: i'm very glad mj pulled that trade. jack would make sense if we had bosh where our offense was basically giving the ball to bosh. a monkey can pass the ball to bosh, you don't need to be an elite passing pg. his ability to score creates a lot of space on offense for us too. but bosh is gone, there is no go to guy on offense, so you need someone who can make plays happen and that's calderon.

time and time again last year the first unit was flat, then in comes calderon for 15 minutes and he was finding amir johnson, derozan, and weems for easy dunks all over the place. it would be refreshing if we had that for 30+ minutes instead of just 15 minutes next season.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I want Calderon gone because he is clearly not our guy for the future and theres no point paying him 9-10 mil a year if theres a chance that we can get something back for him either through trade or through the cap space he creates when he's gone.

If this lineup works well with Jack then great, if not then we're in a better position in terms of pingpong balls. We're not going anywhere with Calderon at PG anyway, even if he's better we're talking about the difference between a 25 win team and a 28-30 win team, who cares?

The most important thing in my books when it comes to Jose vs. Jack is that Jack brings in a new hardnosed attitude that is different from the Bosh era. We're going to lose regardless who's at the point next year but with Jack at least we would lose because we can't score, with Calderon it would be because the team doesn't guard anybody. Scoring problem can be solved much more easily than having a team that plays soft and I much rather carry Jack's way of play into next year than Jose's.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> I want Calderon gone because he is clearly not our guy for the future and theres no point paying him 9-10 mil a year if theres a chance that we can get something back for him either through trade or through the cap space he creates when he's gone.
> 
> If this lineup works well with Jack then great, if not then we're in a better position in terms of pingpong balls. We're not going anywhere with Calderon at PG anyway, even if he's better we're talking about the difference between a 25 win team and a 28-30 win team, who cares?
> 
> The most important thing in my books when it comes to Jose vs. Jack is that Jack brings in a new hardnosed attitude that is different from the Bosh era. We're going to lose regardless who's at the point next year but with Jack at least we would lose because we can't score, with Calderon it would be because the team doesn't guard anybody. Scoring problem can be solved much more easily than having a team that plays soft and I much rather carry Jack's way of play into next year than Jose's.


are we watching different teams here? how is calderon soft? this is a guy who refuses to take crap from kevin garnett, only one of the biggest douches in the nba. and whenever he stepped on the court he always brought so much energy to the court. he is white but he is not a soft player, that's almost a racial stereotype. i do agree that jack brings a good attitude, but jose's attitude is excellent in his own right. jose is one of the guys that made these last couple of seasons bearable to watch.

and yes we will lose either way, but with jose we're at least developing the young guys. i keep having to say it because i can't seem to knock that idea into your heads but we need him to develop derozan, weems, and johnson. jack can't do it quite as well. and with jack, we'll be losing not just because of inability to score but inability to play D as well. i mean come on now, you can say his D is better than jose's but fact is even jack will be letting opposing pg's have a field day. overall we're talking a major downgrade at the pg position and that may make us as bad as the nets from last year. it's one thing to get more lottery balls and another to be the embarrassment of the entire nba.

and this "soft" attitude around the team, that does not start with calderon because he is one of the most competitive guys on the team. list instances where calderon was afraid to step up to the challenge. bargs if way softer, like mashimaro soft and you're okay with him staying. heck even BC seems to be more like the cause for this team's soft mentality for letting andrea be like that.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

c_dog said:


> are we watching different teams here? how is calderon soft? this is a guy who refuses to take crap from kevin garnett, only one of the biggest douches in the nba. and whenever he stepped on the court he always brought so much energy to the court. he is white but he is not a soft player, that's almost a racial stereotype. i do agree that jack brings a good attitude, but jose's attitude is excellent in his own right. jose is one of the guys that made these last couple of seasons bearable to watch.


It has nothing to do with him being white or purple or pink it has more to do with him bringing in a lack of defensive intensity. I like how you list his altercation with KG as an example. Notice he doesn't guard KG, he guards Rondo and Rondo ate him up. Jack plays physical and gets in people's grill on defense and that's the type of attitude that we need for our young guys. Especially for guys like Weems/DeRozan who are not necessarily projected to be stud scorers but rather guys that should be solid defensively.



> and yes we will lose either way, but with jose we're at least developing the young guys. i keep having to say it because i can't seem to knock that idea into your heads but we need him to develop derozan, weems, and johnson. jack can't do it quite as well. and with jack, we'll be losing not just because of inability to score but inability to play D as well. i mean come on now, you can say his D is better than jose's but fact is even jack will be letting opposing pg's have a field day. overall we're talking a major downgrade at the pg position and that may make us as bad as the nets from last year. it's one thing to get more lottery balls and another to be the embarrassment of the entire nba.


I fail to see how it is essential to have Calderon in order to develop our young guys. If that's the case don't you think his trade value will be higher than it is now? Shouldn't teams with young talent be knocking on our doors to get him? He's like the yeast that starts the leavening process, we can't develop guys without him.

Look, Calderon is good if you want to run pick and rolls in a half court offense. That's not what the Raptors are looking to do next year. With the roster that we have right now a lot of the offense will have to come from fastbreaks. There won't be that much difference in terms of offense between Calderon and Jack because our team lacks the pieces to fully utilize Calderon's passing skills. 



> and this "soft" attitude around the team, that does not start with calderon because he is one of the most competitive guys on the team. list instances where calderon was afraid to step up to the challenge. bargs if way softer, like mashimaro soft and you're okay with him staying. heck even BC seems to be more like the cause for this team's soft mentality for letting andrea be like that.


Calderon is not the source of the soft attitude but he is definitely part of it as is Bargnani. If the Raptors truly want to change their brand of basketball they need to get rid of both but because Bargnani is more talented than Calderon we should start with Calderon.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> It has nothing to do with him being white or purple or pink it has more to do with him bringing in a lack of defensive intensity. I like how you list his altercation with KG as an example. Notice he doesn't guard KG, he guards Rondo and Rondo ate him up. Jack plays physical and gets in people's grill on defense and that's the type of attitude that we need for our young guys. Especially for guys like Weems/DeRozan who are not necessarily projected to be stud scorers but rather guys that should be solid defensively.


i happen to think weems and derozan should develop into good defenders because of their pride. it's good that jack can set an example for them, and jack will still be able to set plenty of example playing backup to calderon. just because jack brings something good to the table doesn't mean we should get rid of calderon.



> I fail to see how it is essential to have Calderon in order to develop our young guys. If that's the case don't you think his trade value will be higher than it is now? Shouldn't teams with young talent be knocking on our doors to get him? He's like the yeast that starts the leavening process, we can't develop guys without him.
> 
> Look, Calderon is good if you want to run pick and rolls in a half court offense. That's not what the Raptors are looking to do next year. With the roster that we have right now a lot of the offense will have to come from fastbreaks. There won't be that much difference in terms of offense between Calderon and Jack because our team lacks the pieces to fully utilize Calderon's passing skills.


i like the chemistry between calderon and the young gunz. amir johnson plays so much better when he has calderon on the floor with him. there's no denyin that because the evidence is there when you watch the games.

and calderon's trade value is low because he's coming off a bad season that's plagued with injuries. nba execs have short term memory and can't remember things that happen more than 3 months ago(much like some fans), so all they remember is him being injured all the time and being paid 10+million. and calderon is not just good with pick and roll. and i disagree that this team doesn't have the pieces to utilize calderon because we have so many athletes now. we have 4 guys on this team who can score double digits just by catching lobs.



> Calderon is not the source of the soft attitude but he is definitely part of it as is Bargnani. If the Raptors truly want to change their brand of basketball they need to get rid of both but because Bargnani is more talented than Calderon we should start with Calderon.


i'm not even sure if bargnani is more talented. certainly he's bigger. but his mentality is one of the worst in raptors history. and if we're trading calderon because he's a part of the "soft" attitude then you basically have to trade the entire team.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Good debate guys, you both are making arguments and trying t back it up with believed facts.

I would like to see Jose start at PG at the beginning of the season so that he can play hard and prove his value. Jose has been one of my most favorite Raptors of all time, but I feel his time has come, a good start to the year could go a long way in finding a trade for him that benefits the team going forward. 

Jose will get the offence started very well in the early part of the game, he can run the pick and pop with Andrea, pick and roll will Amir, and throw lobs to DeRozan and Weems cutting baseline or getting out on the break. 

By mid season I expect Jack to be the starter as Jose will be gone, I am sure he can wait for 25 games or so to let this happen.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

C dog if you are thinking I am fine with BC overpaying Bargs you are wrong, I dont like Bargs that much, I think he is to soft and inconsistent and if he does not live up to the his salary this year and we have a terrible terrible year with very little hope assuming Weems and Dd dont emerge how this board is expecxting the strides from them than. I think it might be safe to say BC will be canned and once he is Bargs will not get a free ride, which ever GM would take over wont be scared to trade Bargs. This year we must see Bargs reach 20 PPG status and hopefully 8 boards and tougher on the glass. I see him right now very similar to P.Gasol when he was in Memphis just a finesse scorer we need him to develop into the Gasol that Pau is now numbers could remain the same but as long as he would play more intnse on D that would be fine.
Wish we took Roy instead but BC and Gherideni kept on raving how Andrea's cieling is so high , I personally dont think he will reach Dirk's status at C, if we can add a C like Gortat or Hibbert he would get plenty of help for the dirty things.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I don't really know what Calderon is good for except pick and roll. He certainly doesn't penetrate as much as he used to and his jumpshot(which usually comes off a pick and roll) hasn't been deadly since his contract year. He's not a draw and kick guy and he doesn't run fastbreaks particularly well because of his speed as well as his lack of steals(because of his poor defense).

I don't know how many lobs you expect him to throw a game but I can tell you right now alley-oops aren't something that you rely on every game because teams are going to catch on when they realize you can't do anything else. With Jack at least we have someone attacking the hoop and freeing up other guys that can't create themselves.

The Jose/Amir pick and roll combo is vastly overrated. It might be good against 2nd units, I don't see it work throughout a game against starters. Amir himself is in a battle for starting role. Just because he got a big contract doesn't mean he figured out how to stay on the court without fouling every minute. For all we know Ed Davis could win the starting job from him or even start the season as a starter.

I believe Calderon will be gone either the start of the season or mid season. BC has made it clear that he wants to trade 1 of Jack/Calderon since the end of last season and the Bobcats failtrade shows that Calderon is the one that's getting the hook.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

seifer0406 said:


> I don't really know what Calderon is good for except pick and roll. He certainly doesn't penetrate as much as he used to and his jumpshot(which usually comes off a pick and roll) hasn't been deadly since his contract year. He's not a draw and kick guy and he doesn't run fastbreaks particularly well because of his speed as well as his lack of steals(because of his poor defense).
> 
> I don't know how many lobs you expect him to throw a game but I can tell you right now alley-oops aren't something that you rely on every game because teams are going to catch on when they realize you can't do anything else. With Jack at least we have someone attacking the hoop and freeing up other guys that can't create themselves.
> 
> ...


you are 100% right, but maybe jose will get one more chance.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Doubt he gets 1 more chance and Bc did trade him just Charlotte pulled out no thanks to MJ, That clearly shows BC wants to unoad Jose and prefers Jack.
withen the next 2 weeks Jose will be gone.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

i think jose is the man for point. and i can't make you guys recall all the good things he does on the offensive end of the floor. his is very good at pick and pop but he does much much more than that. even in limited minutes last year i thought he looked to be in pretty good form most times(when he wasn't injured that is).

i dont care if BC wants him gone because BC has proven to be quite a stubborn donkey. he's overrated and his stint with the raps exposed him for what he is, which is a blind squirrel who managed to find a nut(steve nash). just because BC wants jose gone does not mean jose isn't the best pg for this team.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Colangelo is also the guy who gave Calderon the contract and traded Ford away in order to give way to Calderon. Can't have it both ways here, if he's dumb enough to trade Calderon away he was dumb enough to sign him in the first place.

If BC can't find a taker for Calderon I have no problem with him on the team. I just don't want to see us run the same pick and roll play every time down and not attacking like we should.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

I like Jose although his limitations have certainly been exposed over the last 2 years. There are some things he does that go unnoticed, such as hitting guys in rhythm and in their shooting pocket, that other guards like TJ and JJ fail at. Also his shooting percentage, while lower, was still very good. 48% and 40% is not exactly crap. They are right around JJ's career *best*.

Also, when Jose does drive he usually ends up with a traditional layup that leaves you wondering how he got that big a driving lane. JJ looked good last year but he was really just putting his head down, bulldozing his way to the rim and making some pretty darn difficult looking shots that I have my doubts will continue to fall. They may keep falling. I know I was continually amazed that he made such a high percentage of them. But this was usually late in the 4th when the other team was protecting a medium sized lead. And it could not be called a good offensive set for the Raps. It was desperation.

Something was off with Jose last year though. His FT% tells you that. Going from 90%+ for two straight seasons down to 78 means his stroke or concentration or something was not right. Was it the fans getting on him? If so, will that change?

JJ made a big step up in his shooting % last year despite similar total attempts from deep. He has always been around 35% from 3 and made 41% this past year. Will that continue? If not he starts to look a lot more ordinary and his equally bad D will get much more scrutiny if Jose is shipped out.

Really they are both 24mpg players and should work in a platoon. We just don't have star PG production despite investing 14 mill into the position so we are playing from behind in that sense. at 9 or 10 mill combined they would be pretty good value.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jack is a career 45% FG shooter, not necessarily Steve Nash out there but he has shown to be an efficient scorer. He also shot over 40% from 3s though he only takes about 2 a game.

I just don't see anything wrong with making him our starter at least through the transition years. He's cheap, he's durable, he's a good leader, and lastly if you haven't watched the youtube videos, he has a great relationship with our young gunz.

That's all I have to say about our PG situation. For all the good things you guys say about Jose the guy will end up pulling his groin 20 games into the season anyway. Whether he's a starter or not he will end up on the bench because of injuries. If it's up to me I much rather just use him off the bench so at least we aren't changing our offense mid season to accommodate him. It makes all the sense to trade him, but it looks like we're stuck with the guy because no team will want a 2nd string PG making that sort of dough.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Here is the thing about Jack. He may have shot 40% this year from 3 but he has always been around 35% in previous years taking a very similar amount of shots. If IND thought he was starting quality they would have matched the reasonable offer he got. POR also did not think enough of him to keep him around. Now maybe he has found his nba game and is in his prime now. That is possible. but more likely he reverts to the norm.

You can't praise his FG% and then slam Jose for regressing to those very levels.

Does it matter who plays PG for us this year? Not really. We are likely in that 23-35 win range depending how Bargs/DD/Weems do this year. So I don't think playing Jose for a trade and switching JJ back to a starter in Feb is going to matter one bit in the long run. If anything I think Jose can get the young guns into the game a little better and force them into creator roles.

I doubt Jack is our starting PG in 2-3 years.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

i'm with lucky on this one. we need calderon. and i much rather overpay slightly for calderon than to trade him for the sake of trading him. boris diaw would have been a horrible fit on this team and created a logjam at pf. and the thought of even starting jack gives me nightmares.

if all goes well, and we get lucky, the raps may actually be competitive enough to win 35 games and be a lot of fun to watch. there's pretty much no chance of that with jack.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

lucky777s said:


> You can't praise his FG% and then slam Jose for regressing to those very levels.


I'm not slamming jose's shooting at all, I'm only stating that Jack isn't as bad offensively as you guys are making him up to be. What I *am* slamming Jose for is his lack of aggression on offense. Like you said, when Jose does attack the basket he gets layups, however the problem is he doesn't do it on a regular basis. Jack on the other hand is constantly attacking and his aggressiveness does wear off on other players. With Calderon often times you fall into the typical Raptor offense where guys camp out and shoot jumpers off Calderon's pick and roll. And I don't even know if I want Calderon attacking the basket. With the injuries he's had the past 2 years god knows how long he'll last if he goes all out.

I'm just tired of that brand of basketball. I much rather we lose a game attacking the basket than fluke a game when we happen to shoot an insane percentage. How many times in the past have we seen the Raptors look like world beaters when they're hitting everything and then the next night look like the Nets when they're hitting nothing? I'm sick of that sort of inconsistency and fool's gold where our team looks good for stretches during the season and then have BC proudly announces that the team has turned the corner.

The Raptors are not going to win 35 games next year with Calderon or Jack. Like I said, you either start with Calderon and make the switch to Jack midseason when Calderon gets injured or you start with Jack and give him an entire season as a starter to figure things out.


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