# Isiah Thomas In Retrospect....



## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

I think we're starting to reach a point now where we can look back on Isiah Thomas' tenure and judge it a little more accurately. Most consider his time here as some of the darkest days in Knick history but when you consider the cards he was dealt and what came of it afterward, you got to cut him some slack especially considering how certain players have developed. 
1.) Jamal Crawford and Zach Randolph have been receiving all-star considerations and currently have their teams on the brink of being top-tier. 
2.) Jared Jefferies has emerged as one of the best defenders in the entire league.
3.) Channing Frye has developed into one of the better role playing centers in the league.
4.) David Lee is one of the best big men in the entire league.
5.) Wilson Chandler is developing into a nice complimentary player.
6.) And Nate Robinson is one of the best 6th men in the league.

Of course Isiah has had a few drawbacks during his time in New York such as Eddy Curry and Jerome James. That, however, is something to be expected since no executives track record is untarnished. When you consider those moves in light of everything else he did, I can not really see how anyone would regard his time here as being negative. Had we kept his team together, we would have been contenders in the East.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

TwinkieFoot said:


> I think we're starting to reach a point now where we can look back on Isiah Thomas' tenure and judge it a little more accurately. Most consider his time here as some of the darkest days in Knick history but when you consider the cards he was dealt and what came of it afterward, you got to cut him some slack especially considering how certain players have developed.
> 1.) Jamal Crawford and Zach Randolph have been receiving all-star considerations and currently have their teams on the brink of being top-tier.
> 2.) Jared Jefferies has emerged as one of the best defenders in the entire league.
> 3.) Channing Frye has developed into one of the better role playing centers in the league.
> ...


contenders? you really think if zach randalph and jamal crawford were on this team that this team would be able to win a championship? i don't think so. some of these players are decent but come on, the knicks are still one of the worst teams in the league.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I think Isiah has always been praised for his ability to identify talent. He is better used as a scout rather than GM due to his lack of understanding of team chemistry.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

c_dog said:


> contenders? you really think if zach randalph and jamal crawford were on this team that this team would be able to win a championship? i don't think so. some of these players are decent but come on, the knicks are still one of the worst teams in the league.


I never called the Knicks contenders in the league but just contenders in the East. I don't think the Knicks would have been close to winning a championship with that squad but they sure could have given any team in the East a run for their money with the exception of Cleveland. I mean the Grizzlies are in the playoffs out West with Randolph being there most productive player and the Hawks are beating teams left and right in large part due to Jamal Crawford. With the existing squad the Knicks have now, I can't imagine how those guys couldn't have a similar impact. Just to put things into perspective, the Knicks were 6-6 with Jamal Crawford and Zach Randolph before they were traded. Imagine how effective they could be if they were allowed time to become better acclimated to D'Antoni's system and draft picks.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> I think Isiah has always been praised for his ability to identify talent. He is better used as a scout rather than GM due to his lack of understanding of team chemistry.


Thats the things, I don't think Isiah assumed these guys would mesh. His agenda from day one had been stated as improving the teams talent level. You really can't improve teams if you have no assets, which is why it appeared he was more concerned with hording talent than adding fits. Isiah is still pretty young, so he could have benefited from mentorship from a more seasoned executive but the guy IMO is needlessly and unjustly criticized when his skills make him a valuable commodity if used properly.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

TwinkieFoot said:


> I never called the Knicks contenders in the league but just contenders in the East. I don't think the Knicks would have been close to winning a championship with that squad but they sure could have given any team in the East a run for their money with the exception of Cleveland. I mean the Grizzlies are in the playoffs out West with Randolph being there most productive player and the Hawks are beating teams left and right in large part due to Jamal Crawford. With the existing squad the Knicks have now, I can't imagine how those guys couldn't have a similar impact. Just to put things into perspective, the Knicks were 6-6 with Jamal Crawford and Zach Randolph before they were traded. Imagine how effective they could be if they were allowed time to become better acclimated to D'Antoni's system and draft picks.


I didn't know that Johnson, Horford, Bibby and Smith were the role players and Crawford was the star. Channing Frye is having his one good season and will be overpaid next year by another team. While Randolph is being the man in Memphis, his help is better than anyone on the Knicks' roster.

Isiah sucked it up, traded great picks, took on a ridiculous amount of salary, and overpaid the role players that he had. It was hotly debated whether Curry would be worth his salary when he was signed and now it's apparent as one of the worst signings the Knicks have made.

EDIT: Here's Top 10 recap of the terrible moves Isiah made as GM of the Knicks


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> I think Isiah has always been praised for his ability to identify talent. He is better used as a scout rather than GM due to his lack of understanding of team chemistry.


^^^This. He knew good scoring ability when he saw it, but never appreciated the little things in players like unselfishness, defense, etc. Plus, he spent money like nobody's business. Bad mixture when you're dealing with luxury tax and a poor sense of chemistry where pieces need to get moved around frequently.


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## eddymac (Jun 23, 2005)

His mistake was trying to rebuild on the fly, we all know the rule that you cant rebuild in NY, so he made moves to be competitive and it always backfired. I was rooting for Isiah but it's hard to defend him and his bad moves. Dealing Ariza for Steve Francis, and trading KVH who was a better fit for that Knick team than Tim Thomas, and signing guys like Jerome James and Jefferies (who has FINALLY played well after all these years), the Curry signing was not bad at first as he was productive and was even in consideration for the All Star game in 07. I think Seifer summed it up and that he doesn't understand chemistry, but he is a good talent evaluater.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Hyperion said:


> I didn't know that Johnson, Horford, Bibby and Smith were the role players and Crawford was the star. Channing Frye is having his one good season and will be overpaid next year by another team. While Randolph is being the man in Memphis, his help is better than anyone on the Knicks' roster.
> 
> Isiah sucked it up, traded great picks, took on a ridiculous amount of salary, and overpaid the role players that he had. It was hotly debated whether Curry would be worth his salary when he was signed and now it's apparent as one of the worst signings the Knicks have made.
> 
> EDIT: Here's Top 10 recap of the terrible moves Isiah made as GM of the Knicks


The Hawks last year were not considered a legitimate title contending team in the East. This year, they are arguably the 2nd best team in the East and could give Cleveland a run for their money. Considering that no player showed any significant improvement on the former team, you would have to assume that Jamal Crawford has been a major part of their success. In fact, behind Johnson, he may be their most important player; an opinion that both Kenny Smith and Chris Webber share.

Channing Frye has actually had 2 good seasons (his first with the Knicks and this one), while the seasons in between have either been meered by injuries or a lack of playing time behind a talented cast of centers. He also has a 2nd year on his contract after this season, so I guess there goes your theory.

Randolph's help is better than anyone on the Knicks roster? You mean the same help that had such a poor record they got the no.2 pick just the year before (who has made no impact)?

While Isiah has traded away great picks, he's also made some great picks at positions most people would give up on. He took on ridiculous salaries but certainly no more ridiculous than the salaries he was already dealing with. He overpaid Jerome James but actually got him at market value for any big man that had any NBA-skills (see Dan Gadzuric, Adonal Foyle, Erick Dampier, Mark Blount, Shawn Bradley, etc). Even Eddy Curry had a reasonable contract considering the day of overpaying centers. When you consider the guy was damn near an all-star, a draft pick was of little consequence especially when the guy would have been Tyrus Thomas. Wilson Chandler, who also went in that same draft was a solid consolitory prize.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

The Steve Francis move was on Larry Brown.

Zeke deserves blame for a lot of the moves he made, but Francis had Brown all over it.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

yodurk said:


> ^^^This. He knew good scoring ability when he saw it, but never appreciated the little things in players like unselfishness, defense, etc. Plus, he spent money like nobody's business. Bad mixture when you're dealing with luxury tax and a poor sense of chemistry where pieces need to get moved around frequently.


I agree with your post but I think it is important to distinguish Isiah the GM from Isiah the coach. Isiah the GM did what was expected of any good GM; to bring in talent to use at the coach's own discretion and develop chemistry. Isiah the coach was the one that failed because he allowed so many sheningans to go on in his locker room like playing favorites, pitting players against one another and playing his most talented rather than his best rotation.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

eddymac said:


> His mistake was trying to rebuild on the fly, we all know the rule that you cant rebuild in NY, so he made moves to be competitive and it always backfired. I was rooting for Isiah but it's hard to defend him and his bad moves. Dealing Ariza for Steve Francis, and trading KVH who was a better fit for that Knick team than Tim Thomas, and signing guys like Jerome James and Jefferies (who has FINALLY played well after all these years), the Curry signing was not bad at first as he was productive and was even in consideration for the All Star game in 07. I think Seifer summed it up and that he doesn't understand chemistry, but he is a good talent evaluater.


Someone brought this up earlier but the Ariza deal was all-Larry Brown. Keith Van Horn was a better player than Tim Thomas but you also got to understand we got a double-double center in Nazr Mohammed out of the deal. Besides, what did KVH end up doing after his time with the Knicks? I can't argue with the rest of your post but will reiterate that the final product we ended up with, assuming Mike D'Antoni would be coach it, was not too bad.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

TwinkieFoot said:


> The Hawks last year were not considered a legitimate title contending team in the East. This year, they are arguably the 2nd best team in the East and could give Cleveland a run for their money. Considering that no player showed any significant improvement on the former team, you would have to assume that Jamal Crawford has been a major part of their success. In fact, behind Johnson, he may be their most important player; an opinion that both Kenny Smith and Chris Webber share.


Chris Webber? Really? No doubt Crawford has been useful on the Hawks team, but to say that he's anywhere near as good as the top 5 is silly. He's a chucker who shoots 40% career from the field. They just need him to not shoot too much. Fortunately he's shooting a career high this year in FG% at an incredibly 46%. 


> Channing Frye has actually had 2 good seasons (his first with the Knicks and this one), while the seasons in between have either been meered by injuries or a lack of playing time behind a talented cast of centers. He also has a 2nd year on his contract after this season, so I guess there goes your theory.


it's a one and one deal. The second year is a player option and I am pretty sure he's going to opt out and demand more money.



> Randolph's help is better than anyone on the Knicks roster? You mean the same help that had such a poor record they got the no.2 pick just the year before (who has made no impact)?


yes.



> While *Isiah has traded away great picks*, he's also made some great picks at positions most people would give up on.* He took on ridiculous salaries* but certainly no more ridiculous than the salaries he was already dealing with. *He overpaid Jerome James* but actually got him at market value for any big man that had any NBA-skills (see Dan Gadzuric, Adonal Foyle, Erick Dampier, Mark Blount, Shawn Bradley, etc). Even Eddy Curry had a reasonable contract considering the day of overpaying centers. When you consider the guy was damn near an all-star, a draft pick was of little consequence especially when the guy would have been Tyrus Thomas. Wilson Chandler, who also went in that same draft was a solid consolitory prize.


Ok, so I guess you just didn't expect the Knicks to make the playoffs once during the 2000's decade? Is that the mark of a decent GM? I don't doubt that he tried, but he was stupid with every move he made. He crippled the Knicks for 5 years with Marbury and Hardaway's contracts that he turned into a clone of marbury and a clone of Curry. He never went to compliment the positions, but rather went for the best players available and never questioned why they were being unloaded without regard to getting talent back.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

The "Isiah inherited a horrendous roster" excuse sort of died about 5 years ago. I don't care what kind of roster you take on you should be able to at least make progress record wise in 3-4 years. The fact that at the end of Isiah's tenure the Knicks still have 2-3 years of futility left just proves that almost everything he did has failed.

I don't buy into the idea that coach should take the blame when the team fails to build chemistry when it is the GM's job to hire the correct coach. Therefore no matter how you slice it at the end of the day the GM should take the entire blame if a team fails.

Randolph or Crawford may be good players now but for whatever reason they couldn't make it work in New York. You blame the GM for not building an environment for things to work out.


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