# Penny Hardaway



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

remember how freakin good he was?

i mean, it has to be the biggest fall-out in sports history. much moreso than even ken griffey jr.

penny was the best PG in the league for a couple years, and would've been the best guard period if it wasn't for a little someone named MJ.

we haven't seen the likes of penny since then, and we may not for a long time. a 50%+ shooting 20+ ppg scoring slashing PG with solid passing ability and with the size, speed and skill to defensively lock down most any PG, SG and SF?

to tell you the truth, i miss watching him. it's a shame what happened.

i miss lil penny too. he was cool.


----------



## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

You're overrating him just a tad bit, but he was the best PG we ever had.


----------



## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> we haven't seen the likes of penny since then, and we may not for a long time. a 50%+ shooting 20+ ppg scoring slashing PG with solid passing ability and with the size, speed and skill to defensively lock down most any PG, SG and SF?


That could be Lebron James in a few years (50% shooting part).

Not taking anything away from penny, but one of the reasons for his high shooting percentage was that most of the point guards in his era were typical point guard heights (6 feet and under). Nowadays there are many 6'5 combo guards/point guards. Which would make that baseline penny fade away a little less effective. 

None the less he was as good as advertised. i agree with ur post, penny was the bomb.

I think thats why Lebron is so hyped up, because never before since penny or magic, has there been a 6'7" ish point guard, who can pay multiple positions, see the floor and have such athletitism.


----------



## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> You're overrating him just a tad bit, but he was the best PG we ever had.


I think he meant, best point guard, in the league at that time, not in history.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> You're overrating him just a tad bit, but he was the best PG we ever had.


how am i overrating him?

penny WAS the best 1-guard in the league during his prime. sadly, his "prime" only lasted about 3 years, but you can't deny what he did during that span.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: Re: Penny Hardaway*



> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> 
> 
> That could be Lebron James in a few years (50% shooting part).
> ...


lebron could one day average a triple double, but i don't think he'll ever average 50% FG shooting in a season.

i can see him hovering around the 45% mark, as most elite guards in the league do these days.


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

The Penny of old could slash much better than the guys like James, and T-mac. But Penny still would play in the flow, let the game comes to me and using picks here and there. That's why he shot at 51.2% and 51.3% for both years. He didnt do it like what Sam Cassell is like he is ON for basically the whole year because he did things much closer to the rim than Sam does this year.


----------



## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> lebron could one day average a triple double, but i don't think he'll ever average 50% FG shooting in a season.
> 
> i can see him hovering around the 45% mark, as most elite guards in the league do these days.


It depends on how much he takes his game inside... he has the physical advantages and the inside touch to score a lot in the post. If he would take the majority of his shots in the post and driving to the basket, instead of jump shooting, he could get to 50%.

I don't know that he'll ever the the jumpshooter that Kobe and T-Mac are, but I don't think he has to be that good at it... just needs to be more consistent. He can physically dominate people around the basket like few others.


----------



## therealdeal (Dec 24, 2003)

> I think thats why Lebron is so hyped up, because never before since penny or magic, has there been a 6'7" ish point guard


And still there isn't one because Lebron is not a point guard.
Why do you think Cavs were forced to trade for a real point guard.

Lebron can't even play a shooting guard. He's just another small forward who can't shoot.


----------



## tdizzle (Apr 12, 2003)

First Four Seasons:

1993-1994: 16.0 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 6.6 APG (82 games)
1994-1995: 20.9 PPG, 4.4 RPG, 7.2 APG (77 games)
1995-1996: 21.7 PPG, 4.3 RPG, 7.1 APG (82 games)
1998-1997: 20.5 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 5.6 APG (59 games)


Last Four Seasons:

2000-2001: 9.8 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 3.8 APG (4 games)
2001-2002: 12.0 PPG, 4.4 RPG, 4.0 APG (80 games)
2002-2003: 10.6 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 4.0 APG (58 games)
2003-2004: 9.2 PPG, 3.8 RPG, 2.3 APG (75 games)


Anfernee Hardaway:


----------



## afireinside (Jan 8, 2004)

Penny and Larry Johnson -- Fallout Players of the 90's


----------



## Pumpkin_Escobar (Jun 8, 2003)

Larry Johnson was awesome...

First two years...

91-92 19.2ppg 11rpg 
92-93 22.1ppg 10.5rpg


----------



## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

Baron Davis is putting up better stats than Penny's best year. The difference is the fg%, Penny has the excellent 50%.


----------



## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

notice how his good years were when he was playing with Shaq. Now without Shaq, he is a mediocre player. 

This is what is going to happen with Kobe. He looks great with Shaq by his side, but put him on a team without Shaq and he becomes a high volume shooter with a low FG%. Just like Penny. 

When Kobe leaves the Lakers, his play will rapidly decline. Mark my words.


----------



## RocketFan85 (Jun 8, 2003)

Grant Hill was the gratest fall out player ever. Damn he was good. Then just like that he was traded to Orlando and the rest is history.


----------



## B Dizzle (Apr 3, 2004)

Yeah, Penny was great! He used to be my favourite player! I think his role is just different right now. He made space for other youngsters to step up.


----------



## spursfaninla (Sep 13, 2003)

*penny and grant hill duh*

No one mentioned that both of these guys had chronic injuries that have really limited them; obviously moreso for grant hill, but penny has never been the same since he lost all the cartalege in his knee...


----------



## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

This is a question I asked on these boards a long time ago... I'd like to know what people think now: If Grant Hill were somehow able to come back from his injury and play next season, would he be better than Penny is right now?


----------



## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

I was the biggest Penny fan growing up, (I have Little Penny sitting next to me now), but I will be the first to admit, SHAQ is what helped Penny play so well. It is similar to the way Kobe is with Shaq now.. Without Shaq, the Lakers just dont win. Same way with Orlando. Shaq wasnt there anymore to draw double teams and cause teams to adjust their defense.


----------



## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> This is a question I asked on these boards a long time ago... I'd like to know what people think now: If Grant Hill were somehow able to come back from his injury and play next season, would he be better than Penny is right now?


When Grant attempted a comeback a few years ago, he was averaging 16 pts 8 rebs or somewhere near that, so I guess he didn't really suck as badly as Penny. But Penny has been getting better recently, hopefully he can bounce back and someday be a steady guy.


----------



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

this could have drastic implications on cwebb's return...penny had the same exact injury as him and is only a shadow of his former self.


----------



## maKINGSofgreatness (Aug 17, 2003)

I loved Penny growing up too, my room is still covered in posters and banners from the glory days. It was so sad, after he had a good game in Phoenix a reporter asked him about it and he said "you know, I used to be really good at this game." Brought a tear to my eye...


----------



## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

> If Grant Hill were somehow able to come back from his injury and play next season, would he be better than Penny is right now?


He still played great on his last comeback try. He wouldn't even bother if he couldn't still play well. I don't consider what Penny is doing now playing well. He's just average. And it's not a matter of whether Hill can get over his injury. He would have tried playing the end of this season, but they wouldn't let him. He's already ready. The question is whether he can keep playing an entire season.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ThatBlazerGuy</b>!
> notice how his good years were when he was playing with Shaq. Now without Shaq, he is a mediocre player.


Are you kidding, or unaware that Penny has suffered multiple knee injuries that have removed pretty much all of his athletic burst? Once one of the best slashers and finishers, now he can barely jump or generate any type of first step, and hasn't been able to for years.


----------



## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

*Re: Re: Penny Hardaway*



> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> 
> 
> That could be Lebron James in a few years (50% shooting part).
> ...


The point guards of the 90's aren't too different today! 

You had Payton, Kidd, Stockton, Derek Harper, Jalen Rose, Mark Jackson, Terell Brandon, Mark Price, etc.

None of those seem to be in the 6 feet and UNDER category you seem to think was the norm just 10 years ago.


----------



## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you kidding, or unaware that Penny has suffered multiple knee injuries that have removed pretty much all of his athletic burst? Once one of the best slashers and finishers, now he can barely jump or generate any type of first step, and hasn't been able to for years.


I don't recall Penny ever having to go under the knife. His "surgeries" were all done by laser, which does not entail major surgery, as I recall.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> I don't recall Penny ever having to go under the knife. His "surgeries" were all done by laser, which does not entail major surgery, as I recall.


They prevented him from playing large parts of seasons and clearly robbed him of a lot of athleticism, so they seem pretty major.

The Penny Hardaway that emerged from those injuries was a shadow of the Hardaway that averaged 30 ppg without Shaq in a first-round series against the heavily-favoured Miami Heat.


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> They prevented him from playing large parts of seasons and clearly robbed him of a lot of athleticism, so they seem pretty major.
> ...


I am a Penny homer, but the Penny who scored 30 points a game in the heat series was already damaged of course noit to the extend today.

I know Lenard was small and it's very hard to beat him off the dribble back then, but if it was for Penny of 95-96, Penny didnt have to use the "step back"jumpers and spin moves against Lenard to get his 40 points back to back. Penny could have scored 40 points for the series and went for back to back 50 points if it wasnt for the injuries which took so much away from his first step at that time.

The guy in 95-96 made Jordan and Pippen werent even there defensively. And people have to know that Penny didnt have a midrange jumper to compliment his first step and slashes.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> I am a Penny homer.


Yes you are. :yes:


----------



## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes you are. :yes:


IN this case, "homer" is an understatement. John is approaching "jockrider" levels here.


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> IN this case, "homer" is an understatement. John is approaching "jockrider" levels here.


jockrider or not, Penny is my fav player. I am not some loser jump off the brandwagon once he fades.


----------



## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> jockrider or not, Penny is my fav player. I am not some loser jump off the brandwagon once he fades.


Im with you John!


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> jockrider or not, Penny is my fav player. I am not some loser jump off the brandwagon once he fades.


Penny rocked. Plus he had so much handsome.


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Penny rocked. Plus he had so much handsome.


I wonder who got the better nose between Pinball and yourself since you are both Indian? One thing I can be for sure that beither of you get the "Bulls" Nose. That nose defines what ugly is.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> I wonder who got the better nose between Pinball and yourself since you are both Indian? One thing I can be for sure that beither of you get the "Bulls" Nose. That nose defines what ugly is.


You forgot the "PS I'm not a racisict." 

F!


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> You forgot the "PS I'm not a racisict."
> ...


I loss, the guy knows that I am not racist against Indian. I loss.


----------



## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> The point guards of the 90's aren't too different today!
> ...


Rifleman, u missed the point. The seasons that are being looked at here are the 1993-1997 seasons, i should have mentioned that. Because they were pennys only productive years. Basically comparing his productive years, to now his not so productive ones and trying to find things that are different.

Jalen Rose? he wasnt even starting in the early 90's for Denver. He only became a Full time starter in the 1999-00 season for indiana, where he averaged 18ppg. Thats where his career finally lifted. one good season in the 90's (1999) is hardly worth of being labled a point guard of the 90's

Stockton, and Mark Price are 6'1. IF that, listed nba sizes are always an inch or two overstated. DUDE Terrell Brandon is 5'11!!! . The point is Penny Had a HUGE height advantage, which he wouldnt today. 

Mark Jackson, gary payton and Jason kidd and Derek Harper are the only points of the 90's that are basicaly over 6 feet. And theres still 24 point guards left. Hence the emphasist on MOST of them were 6 and uner and not ALL. The point is that the average height of point guards have increased from the 90's to the 00's. 

Even if they 6'3 or so, penny would still have a huge height (hes 6'7!! advantage. He exploited his height and his athletic ability to get open for numerous mid range j's and he was unstoppable going to the rack. Ubelievable speed and size, thats why he was so good. Guys like Tim hardaway, KJ, Wesley, Price, Stockton, Armstong, Hunter, Strictland, or any other point guard, no matter how awsome they were offensively or how quick they were, Penny just shot right over the top of them. 

Nowadays, you have guys like Lebron (who IMO is a PG, or will be one in the future-please lets not argue this), Jason Terry, Payton (still), Kidd, Baron, Stevie, Larry Hughes, Arenas, Wade, theres just so many. These guys are so athletic, and are all 6'3 and over. 

Dont get me wrong i think penny's downfall is totally due to injuries. But basicallly, you cant argue that he would face much tougher competition these days. The point guards of today are generally bigger, and more athletic. Back then many were around the 6 feet mark, ofcourse there were a few that were over. But the prototype point guard has changed.


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

That's it, I need to fight John. Where in HK do you live?


----------



## Kunlun (Jun 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> 
> Dont get me wrong i think penny's downfall is totally due to injuries. But basicallly, you cant argue that he would face much tougher competition these days. The point guards of today are generally bigger, and more athletic. Back then many were around the 6 feet mark, ofcourse there were a few that were over. But the prototype point guard has changed.


But, let's not forget that Penny could have improved if he didn't get injured and he may have adjusted well to the taller competition.


----------



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

its amazing how horrible he is now. Its too bad he had to get injured like that. Injuries have killed many careers i hope it doesnt happen to a guy like LeBron or something.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> its amazing how horrible he is now. Its too bad he had to get injured like that. Injuries have killed many careers i hope it doesnt happen to a guy like LeBron or something.


Yeah he is pretty pathetic now. It's sad watching him miss shot after shot. He is really bad.


----------



## #1SUNFAN (Jul 17, 2002)

I remember in Marbury's first season in Phoenix, Penny averaged about 20ppg the first two months of the season. That was the best I've seen him play in a Phoenix uniform. I think he will average around 10ppg the rest of his career.


----------



## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> jockrider or not, Penny is my fav player. I am not some loser jump off the brandwagon once he fades.


same here


even though i have been a suns fan all my life... penny always caught my attention. He isnt my very favourite player.. But he is top 3.

Its just a shame on what happened to him...


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> 
> 
> Rifleman, u missed the point. The seasons that are being looked at here are the 1993-1997 seasons, i should have mentioned that. Because they were pennys only productive years. Basically comparing his productive years, to now his not so productive ones and trying to find things that are different.
> ...


Let me break down what you imply for the nowadays point guards you mentioned for you.

1) Lebron James couldnt be able to run the point on a halfcourt set. He gets his assists in fast freak situation, ocassionally pick and roll plays for the cheap assists here and there. He would be having a tough time guarding Penny. The guy when was healthy not only have the 2 guard speed, he has the point guard speed. Did you see how Kobe had to back himself down against Jason Kidd in the NBA finals while Penny of old only had to use his 2 hesisitation moves to get by him.

2) The rest of the 6'4", 6'5" guards you mentioned. You know what Penny serperates himself from the so called elite swingmans today? It's his footworks in the post plus his quick leaping ability. You think those second tier players you mentioned are as good as Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan??? Penny was worn out injuries wise since game 2 of the series they played against the Bulls. But in the regular season games, when Shaq was Penny. Penny torched the Bulls for 36 points/13 assists/8 rebounds, sure Leborn 41/13/8 was impressive as well. But Penny was playing aginst the greateste team of all time, the 72-10 Bulls.


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>#1SUNFAN</b>!
> I remember in Marbury's first season in Phoenix, Penny averaged about 20ppg the first two months of the season. That was the best I've seen him play in a Phoenix uniform. I think he will average around 10ppg the rest of his career.



Yeah. his knees couldnt last for 2 months. He could be 25 points a game if u watch Marbury was taking away his game during the time he scored 20s.


----------



## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> Let me break down what you imply for the nowadays point guards you mentioned for you.
> ...


Read my posts again. IVe already stated how good and UNIQUE penny was. Thats got nothing to do with point guards in the 90's or today. 

I have mentioned that penny would still probably be as good as the 90's if healthy, because of his unique combination, of skill, height, speed and athletic ability. Footwork and footspeed are part of this.


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

I know what you are saying, but you are too caught up with thinking the nowadays combo guards are as quick as Penny desipte they have the height

He wont have any problems shooting 50% FG still.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ThatBlazerGuy</b>!
> notice how his good years were when he was playing with Shaq. Now without Shaq, he is a mediocre player.
> 
> This is what is going to happen with Kobe. He looks great with Shaq by his side, but put him on a team without Shaq and he becomes a high volume shooter with a low FG%. Just like Penny.
> ...


Oh really? So if Penny were teamed with Shaq again he would become a 20 ppg scorer again?

Care to explain why Van Exel, Jones, Nick Anderson and Rice all had better stats playing away from Shaq?


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jamel Irief</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh really? So if Penny were teamed with Shaq again he would become a 20 ppg scorer again?
> ...


Well Jemel, Kobe wasnt shooting the best fg% with the scoring options he has around him. 

I guess Penny was so speical interms of picking his spots to score.


----------



## Like A Breath (Jun 16, 2003)

Some of these arguments are crazy. Penny in his prime would be the best point guard out there today. The Magic had to slow down their team for Shaq and the shooters but he'd also be one of the best transition players in the league. His advantage wasn't his height(he abused Jordan, Pippen, Payton, anybody) it was his quickness, post play, and court vision. A 20+ 50% guard is a rare commodity, that's why I like Dwayne Wade's potential so much.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> Penny was worn out injuries wise since game 2 of the series they played against the Bulls. *But in the regular season games, when Shaq was Penny.*


I love this game. Because of John.


----------



## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

:Cough: Shaun Livingston :Cough:


----------



## ivo_krka (Jan 29, 2004)

Penny was great. If he played a few seasons like he did in mid-90s he would have locked HOF spot by now. 

But unfortunatelly injuries stopped him. And everyone who's saying his game was that good because of Shaq is wrong. And we can judge that only by the games he played in Orlando without Shaq before a series of injuries. In beggining of the 95-96 season Shaq was injured so Penny took the game in his hands and averaged 25+8 for the first 20-25 games in the season and Magic were second in East behind Bulls. 

And in 96-97 he showed he could lead his team to the Playoffs without Shaq (although missing more than 20 games). He was a great shooter and a great passer. He had it all and would have been the best player in his generation by far in front of C-Webb and others.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

wow, a couple of you are vastly underrating how good penny really was.


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> I love this game. Because of John.


lol, I mean when Shaq was OUT instead of saying when Shaq was Penny, LMAO!


----------



## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ThatBlazerGuy</b>!
> notice how his good years were when he was playing with Shaq. Now without Shaq, he is a mediocre player.


Were you serious when you made this post? Penny's first year without Shaq in 96/97 he averaged 20.5 points, 5.6 assists and 4.5 rebounds. But that was the beginning of the end for Penny, he missed 23 games to injury that year, than he missed 63 games the following year and hasn't been the same since. I'm guessing the injuries had a bit more to do with Penny's decline than Shaq leaving, considering he still put up AS #s without Shaq before the injuries.


----------



## Jordanisagoat (Oct 28, 2021)

ThatBlazerGuy said:


> notice how his good years were when he was playing with Shaq. Now without Shaq, he is a mediocre player.
> 
> This is what is going to happen with Kobe. He looks great with Shaq by his side, but put him on a team without Shaq and he becomes a high volume shooter with a low FG%. Just like Penny.
> 
> When Kobe leaves the Lakers, his play will rapidly decline. Mark my words.


？？？


----------

