# Simmons on theoretical Love trade to Chicago



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

This comes about in his annual trade value column, where he pegs Love at #20. Simmons seems to be a big proponent of this idea:



> Tough love for Love! He already lost the 2013 Mokeski to David Lee; now he's bungee-jumping 16 picks from last year's lofty no. 4 spot to this year's semi-insulting no. 20 position, which normally wouldn't happen to a 24-year-old franchise star unless he was arrested with two underage girls and three and a half pounds of molly. Just know that he didn't drop 16 spots because of that twice-broken hand. If we're measuring players by trade value, we're really measuring them by the probability that they'd ever be traded. And Kevin Love WILL be traded. It's inevitable. It might happen this summer, it might happen during next season, but it's going to happen.
> 
> And here's why: Before the 2011-12 season started, Minnesota could have locked Love up to a five-year max extension that he wanted to sign. Incredibly, the T-Wolves decided it would be dumb to lock up a 23-year-old franchise guy for as long as humanly possible; they wanted to save that "max" extension slot for Ricky Rubio. Love signed a lucrative four-year extension with a player option for Year 4 (after 2014-15) that may as well be called "Kevin Love's Get Out of Jail Free Card." He's been bitter ever since. You would be too.
> 
> ...


http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9203345/nba-trade-value-part-2


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Well, glad I got in here before Hoodey writes a novel on this, but the opportunity to upgrade the Boozer-to-Mirotic future at power forward to Kevin Love is too enticing _not_ to do, regardless of where you think Love ranks among the top players in the game. Noah and Gibson alleviate some of the defensive concerns that come along with Love, and Chicago would be a dominant rebounding squad. I've been saying for a while that two or three years from now Kevin Love will be playing in Chicago, Houston, or OKC. Or, you know, the Lakers will get him for an expiring contract and a bag of rocks.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

It's alot to give up. Though I guess in part the rationale would be to unload and upgrade Boozer. 

Boozer, Jimmy, & Bobcats pick would be a no brainer....but it's throwing Mirotic into the fray that we may end up regretting. For starters the guy is a stud, arguably the best player in Euroball and at a young age to boot. There is no reason his style would not adapt to the NBA. Imagine Bargnani with better ball skills and alot more toughness, and that is essentially Mirotic in a nut shell. And not only that, Mirotic may very well have greater value to the Bulls than he does as a trade chip. I say that because I am not sure other teams have scouted him enough to fully appreciate his talents (why would they, the Bulls own his rights), and more significantly there is no guarantee he even comes over at all. Reportedly he is very excited about joining the Bulls in a few years and pairing up with Rose, however to join a team like Minnesota may be far less appealing. Add this all together and I'm not too thrilled about including Mirotic in a trade at this point. That said, I would gladly take Kevin Love if there are other ways to make the deal happen. Maybe bring a 3rd team into the deal to make it happen.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

First of all, I'm not giving up that much, especially when teams like the Lakers don't even come close to giving up that much for players they want. The way I look at it, Kevin Love isn't going to be ok just being traded to just any team, so I would imagine there is a list of 2-3 teams that he would sign an extension with, that means the Bulls don't necessarily have to give up a ton. Its not like they will be competing against 20 other teams. 

You offer them Boozer and or Deng, the Charlotte pick, Jimmy Butler and 2 conditional future first round picks. Heck the Lakers got Dwight Howard for what amounted to be a conditional first round pick in 2017, a couple second rounders, an injury prone Bynum, Christian Eyenga and Josh McRoberts for gods sake. The only snag I can see is if Miami or Indiana gets involved, I could easily see Miami trying to rebuild around Lebron and Love, using Chris Bosh who is a much better player than his stats in Miami suggest, as trade bait. Indiana could be bold and trade Roy Hibbert and Granger to Minnesota for Love, Luke Ridnour and another bum. I think the one big thing on our side is that Love likes Chicago, he likes Rose and he likes Thibs. Also, I doubt the Wolves would trade him in conference... Cause If I'm the Thunder, I'm trading Westbrook for Love in a second.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> First of all, I'm not giving up that much, especially when teams like the Lakers don't even come close to giving up that much for players they want. The way I look at it, Kevin Love isn't going to be ok just being traded to just any team, so I would imagine there is a list of 2-3 teams that he would sign an extension with, that means the Bulls don't necessarily have to give up a ton. Its not like they will be competing against 20 other teams.
> 
> You offer them Boozer and or Deng, the Charlotte pick, Jimmy Butler and 2 conditional future first round picks. Heck the Lakers got Dwight Howard for what amounted to be a conditional first round pick in 2017, a couple second rounders, an injury prone Bynum, Christian Eyenga and Josh McRoberts for gods sake. The only snag I can see is if Miami or Indiana gets involved, I could easily see Miami trying to rebuild around Lebron and Love, using Chris Bosh who is a much better player than his stats in Miami suggest, as trade bait. Indiana could be bold and trade Roy Hibbert and Granger to Minnesota for Love, Luke Ridnour and another bum. I think the one big thing on our side is that Love likes Chicago, he likes Rose and he likes Thibs. Also, I doubt the Wolves would trade him in conference... Cause If I'm the Thunder, I'm trading Westbrook for Love in a second.


Great post, well thought out ideas. I would accept the offer of Boozer, Jimmy, Charlotte pick, and condition future 1st rounders in exchange for Kevin Love. IMO, that "should" be enough to get Minnesota to bite and we still keep Mirotic. Boozer is a short term stop gap with similar salary, Jimmy is a solid young ready-to-play prospect, Charlotte pick is their lottery ticket for a potential star down the road, and future 1sts are the sweetner. Sure there is no guarantee star for them in the deal but there is good meat there for both short-term and long-term planning. Plus the inevitable Love saga will end early so it doesn't drag on and become a distraction like the Melo, Dwight, Lebron sagas.

For the Bulls we end up Noah, Taj, Love, and Mirotic once the 2014-15 season starts as our frontcourt rotation. It's a bit on the small side but that is some really nice talent and our best offensive frontcourt in years.


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## FutureBullsDr (Apr 17, 2012)

If we added Love to this team without losing anyone we still would lose to the Heat... with a healthy Rose. 

Kevin Love is not the answer


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

FutureBullsDr said:


> If we added Love to this team without losing anyone we still would lose to the Heat... with a healthy Rose.
> 
> Kevin Love is not the answer


This is not true. 

Miami is easily the best team in the NBA, but they have also feasted on a historically BAD Eastern Conference, which have inflated them greatly. The Bulls defense with Love added to this team AS IS and with a healthy Rose would eliminate the Heat. But, the sad reality is that we would never be able to get a guy like Love without losing anything.

On paper, a Love trade is an upgrade over Boozer, but I can see how people can say its not a title winning move, but look beyond the PPG and Rebounds. Kevin Love's ability to stretch a defense beyond the 3 and his amazing ability to crash the boards from the 3 point line is something you all should take into serious consideration. This means a guy like Bosh *can't * cheat off his man in order to meet Rose at the rim when he drives to the basket. It creates a much tougher defensive assignment in the pick and roll, with Boozer a pick and roll usually meant he was either going left or right for a fade away 15 footer and NOT a drive to the basket. A defender could either give Boozer that shot but at the same time still cheat towards Rose's side and collapse on him if needed. With Love you got a guy who can STEP back and hit a 3 in your face, that alone creates more opportunities for Rose to drive and for Noah to pick up some garbage points. 

I think the mentality in a Love trade should not be, "Well we got Love, its time to win a title!" instead it should be "Lets build a title winner around Love and Rose". I really think a Love trade brings the Bulls closer to a title, he brings so much versatility to a very predictable Bulls team.


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## Firefight (Jul 2, 2010)

Biz and Yodurk hit this on the head already. Love helps Chicago and the price does not have to be incredibly high. Boozer, Butler, the Charlotte pick is more than enough, and arguably, too much. While Love is a good player, (when healthy), he does not command that price. Butler's value has grown incredibly this past year, he is no longer a throw in. The Charlotte pick gains more value with each passing day. 
If I'm the Bulls, I start with Boozer, Butler and some of our picks. When push comes to shove, I agree to the Charlotte pick and get the deal done.

(on a side note, I'm not saying this is the answer, but I definitely would make the deal as I see it making the Bulls a better team.)


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Carlos Boozer + Luol Deng

for

Kevin Love and Andrei Kirilenko


Noah/Nazr
Love/Gibson
Kirilenko
Butler/Belinelli
Rose/Hinrich/Teague

Can pretty much use the MLE to sign the best guy available. and cover the rest of the depth with minimum contracts.


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

Rhyder said:


> Carlos Boozer + Luol Deng
> 
> for
> 
> ...


That would never happen. I don't think they would even trade Love for

Boozer Deng and Noah.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

doctordrizzay said:


> That would never happen. I don't think they would even trade Love for
> 
> Boozer Deng and Noah.



Then they are complete idiots. Which, I know Kahn was historically, but now he's out.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Rhyder said:


> Carlos Boozer + Luol Deng
> 
> for
> 
> ...



That's a lot of salary moving around, but interesting. I always figured it would be one of Deng or Boozer (with Minny preferring Deng) + a young rookie asset like Jimmy Butler + a draft pick. That still leaves the Bulls with a pretty stout roster, but I have a hard time seeing how they afford long term deals for Deng, Love, Rose, and Noah simultaneously.

With Deng + Boozer, I assume Minny would still require a kicker like a draft pick or young rookie deal player.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> That's a lot of salary moving around, but interesting. I always figured it would be one of Deng or Boozer (with Minny preferring Deng) + a young rookie asset like Jimmy Butler + a draft pick. That still leaves the Bulls with a pretty stout roster, but I have a hard time seeing how they afford long term deals for Deng, Love, Rose, and Noah simultaneously.
> 
> With Deng + Boozer, I assume Minny would still require a kicker like a draft pick or young rookie deal player.


I am operating under the assumption that Love will be traded by next offseason at the latest due to rifts over his contract extension and complaining in the media. They were a 31 win team pretty much without him, so a tank job does not like a very reliable route if they are getting any playable talent back.

Adding Deng and Boozer would give them:

Pekovic/Stiemsma
Boozer/Williams/Cunningham
Deng/Gelabale
Ridnour/Shved
Rubio/Barea

They would have ~$61 million payroll assuming Pekovic is re-signed to a ~$10 million starting deal. They should have plenty of money to re-sign Deng and Rubio going forward. That looks like a team that could be competing for the #6-8 playoff spots in the West before even using their #9 pick. I would assume that Minnesota would want to be relevant as soon as possible if they do part ways with Love.

And you're right. If we trade for Love, we will not be able to pay all of Rose, Love, Noah, and Deng, so you pretty much have to choose who will be in your long term plans between Noah or Deng.

Assuming the scenario plays itself out the way I see it, I would not offer more than Teague or our 1st round pick unless you start adding more guys to the deal (Cunningham or Williams, for example). Hinrich would actually be perfect for that lineup, but I doubt management does that to Kirk again. I was just trying to lay it out there in principle.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Rhyder said:


> I am operating under the assumption that Love will be traded by next offseason at the latest due to rifts over his contract extension and complaining in the media. They were a 31 win team pretty much without him, so a tank job does not like a very reliable route if they are getting any playable talent back.
> 
> Adding Deng and Boozer would give them:
> 
> ...



Thanks. Love the analysis.

My thinking is that if you're making a move for a guy like Love, if you believe he's that 2nd star that can take you over the hump, you should never let pieces like Teague or a low-ish 1st round pick get in the way. I will happily include sweeteners like that if that's what it takes to get the deal done. This is especially true for Teague, given that we have a star point guard right now. It makes more sense to sign veteran backup PGs rather than try to develop a project behind Derrick. 

From a long-term salary perspective, I could see dealing Deng + pieces for Love and amnestying Boozer if Minny does not want to take on Boozer salary. 

At that point, you would have Rose, Love, and Noah on long-term, big-money deals. You have Butler who is on his rookie deal (but at this rate should be in line for a decent payday once that is up). You bring Mirotic over on an MLE-level deal. You have a hole at the 2 or 3, depending where you put Jimmy.


Rose
SG??? (Belinelli?)
Jimmy Buckets
Love
Noah

That's a pretty interesting starting 5 to me. Defensively, it's a step back from where we are now, but offensively it's a big upgrade. Rebounding should be just as good. You have a lot of guys there that can hit a three and space the floor, which would be welcome.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

simply put its way too much , ''you give up cap relief and quality picks or you give equal talent , but no way on earth do you give up both quality picks/youth and equal talent for a guy who is not a true blue superstar.

and love is not .

his play has never translated into significant wins , last season his team won 31 games and that was more than any other love team and he hardly played and when he did play , he didn't play well.

more importantly he's not a good defender and as an offensive player he isn't in the elite level of player who makes his teammates better like for instance rose with whom boozer deng and noah were significantly more efficient playing alongside him than without him...on the t'wolves that guy is actually rubio...nor is he an extremely efficient offensive player himself, he's good but not great. a significant step below what is normally a sidekick on a title contending team.

so he is just not worth it, i'd save that all-in package for a guy who can get you over the hump someone like dwight howard who is proving himself the last couple years to be a guy of great talent but you probably can't win it all with him as franchise guy.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

I would see if they're interested in Deng, Mirotic, Charlotte pick, and a future 1st (and Teague but don't think they'd want him) of ours for Love. Then do something like Boozer for Humphries and Brooks. Bring back Nate Robinson for MMLE.

PG-Rose/Hinrich/Teague
SG-Brooks/Robinson/Hinrich
SF-Butler/Korver?
PF-Love/Gibson/Humphries
C-Noah/Gibson/Draft pick

We may even be able to flip Humphries' expiring for a few role players.


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## PD (Sep 10, 2004)

First, I can't see MIN letting Love go. The guy was averaging 25/14 and shooting 3s like a guard. Although, I am not sure if he is the right fit with Rubio. Imagine Rubio with a guy like Griffin. 

Either way, thats why GMs earn their livings. They have to find the right pieces.

If Min is willing to trade him to us, I would expect they want picks and young talents. Mirotic, Butler, Charlotte's pick, and Bulls future 1st will likely be asked. A high salaried player like Deng and Boozer will be added to make the salary work. If i were them, I would ask for Deng, who is a leader and great role player next to Rubio. Min will then depend on Williams to take over that PF position.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

I think Rubio is key. If he can establish himself as Minnesota's clear franchise player, they'll probably listen to him push for his countryman Mirotic. Didn't he do the same for a Gasol-Love trade?


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

I'd be real hesitant to add Mirotic as a sweetener. I think he has the most value out of Mirotic, the Bobcat pick, and Jimmy Butler.

If they would prefer the long term contract of Taj over the shorter Boozer contract, I wouldn't mind that either. Boozer can play the backup PF/C role and gobble up every minute Noah and Love aren't playing. Plus, we still have the option of amnestying him if a SG or SF option presents themselves next offseason.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Rhyder said:


> I'd be real hesitant to add Mirotic as a sweetener. I think he has the most value out of Mirotic, the Bobcat pick, and Jimmy Butler.
> 
> If they would prefer the long term contract of Taj over the shorter Boozer contract, I wouldn't mind that either. Boozer can play the backup PF/C role and gobble up every minute Noah and Love aren't playing. Plus, we still have the option of amnestying him if a SG or SF option presents themselves next offseason.


There is no guarantee that Mirotic is even coming over to play and there is even less of a guarantee that he will be anywhere near as good as a Carlos Boozer replacement, let alone a much needed second superstar.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

supposedly mirotic would be a lotto pick if allowed in this draft to me that makes him plus lets say boozer , more than enough for love , in reality their production is similar although love is more productive , plus you are adding a lottery pick in a year or so for about the 21st pick salary and with the seasoning he is getting in europe he should be productive right away.

rubio is their franchise guy , and he isn't even a top 10 pg right now , so love while pretty good isn't anywhere near that package simmons suggested, i say if the wolves can get that kind of value from some fool , it shouldn't be GarPax.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> supposedly mirotic would be a lotto pick if allowed in this draft to me that makes him plus lets say boozer , more than enough for love , in reality their production is similar although love is more productive , plus you are adding a lottery pick in a year or so for about the 21st pick salary and with the seasoning he is getting in europe he should be productive right away.
> 
> rubio is their franchise guy , and he isn't even a top 10 pg right now , so love while pretty good isn't anywhere near that package simmons suggested, i say if the wolves can get that kind of value from some fool , it shouldn't be GarPax.


The problem with all of this is that who knows when Mirotic will to play in the NBA. I guarantee you the Wolves would laugh at the idea of making Mirotic the center piece of any trade. The guy realistically won't even be wearing an NBA jersey until 2016, which makes the idea of Mirotic as a future Bulls savior as one of the dumbest things I have ever heard Bulls fans say.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> The problem with all of this is that who knows when Mirotic will to play in the NBA. I guarantee you the Wolves would laugh at the idea of making Mirotic the center piece of any trade. The guy realistically won't even be wearing an NBA jersey until 2016, which makes the idea of Mirotic as a future Bulls savior as one of the dumbest things I have ever heard Bulls fans say.



i don't hold out mirotic to be a savior of anything , i am just speaking about value .

at the end of the day love is the kind of guy just good enough to get you beat , he's a 3rd guy on offense because he doesn't create for others and isn't extremely efficient on shots created for him (like lets say a howard or guy like dirk)

top teams dont have guys like him for a reason and if by some miracle they do they cant pay 15 mil. for them....unless they of course come with in a package with lebron james.

to me love is worth a good player and a good pick, the mirotic pick has extra value for the wolves because mirotic is one of rubio's teammates on real madrid, and since that is whom they are building around , it makes sense.

from what i hear mirotic is more of a antawn jamison/ryan anderson type a stretch 4/big 3 whose scoring should translate well in the nba but by no means a superstar...a good player whom they'll have whenever he gets there for 5 years at a bargain rate.

bringing in a players who should blend in well with rubio is never going to be a bad idea whenever they come plus having rubio already only helps them in bringing in mirotic and having nicola only helps them in keeping rubio.

its the kind of move that gets equal value before the league knows you have to trade love away or get nothing for him ... a day fast approaching btw.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> There is no guarantee that Mirotic is even coming over to play and there is even less of a guarantee that he will be anywhere near as good as a Carlos Boozer replacement, let alone a much needed second superstar.


I simply said that I value Mirotic higher than the Bobcat pick or Jimmy Butler.

There is no guarantee that our 2013, 2015, 2017, 2019, 2021, 2023 and 2025 picks will be better than Carlos Boozer, our second superstar, or even an NBA capable player. Lets trade all of them for Love as well.

Point being, every asset has value. You seem to be downplaying the rights to Mirotic as simply a throw-in. My whole point is saying anything is that I believe he has higher value than as simply a throw-in. I'm not saying hanging on to the rights to Mirotic is a dealbreaker, but he should be appropriately valued.

What do you need to win championships besides a second superstar? Guys who are more valuable to the team than their contracts. If we lock Mirotic up to a MLE deal when he can come over, he is very likely to exceed that production. There is also a smaller chance that he could greatly exceed that production. He mentioned before he was drafted that Chicago was one of his top destinations. I doubt with as conservative as GarPax are, that we would have drafted him without fully expecting him to come over.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Rhyder said:


> I'd be real hesitant to add Mirotic as a sweetener. I think he has the most value out of Mirotic, the Bobcat pick, and Jimmy Butler.
> 
> If they would prefer the long term contract of Taj over the shorter Boozer contract, I wouldn't mind that either. Boozer can play the backup PF/C role and gobble up every minute Noah and Love aren't playing. Plus, we still have the option of amnestying him if a SG or SF option presents themselves next offseason.


personally i'd rather butler who projects into a 3 and D guy along the lines of an aaron afflalo/jared dudley/shane battier etc. space the floor, hit a shot when open but also capable of making plays on defense 

those guys are important to have , i kind of see mirotic and the bobcats pick at about the same level at or about 10th pick in the draft level guys which is nice but the bulls should be at a level where they wont have time to work guys in and develop them, they will have to be useful to get on the court and butler already is useful.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> i don't hold out mirotic to be a savior of anything , i am just speaking about value .


Unless you are a team that has no plans to be any good anytime soon, his value is pretty low. Not because of his talent, but because he has a horrible contract and there is no guarantee that he will ever play in the NBA. Would Mirotic even want to play for a team like the T-Wolves? Lets just say hes fine with that, I would then have to wait till 2014 or 2015 to even negotiate a buyout, or even wait till 2016 in hopes that his player option isn't picked up. THEN, we would have to wait another year or 2 for him to get acclimated to the NBA game... So we probably would not see a return on the investment till hes 26 or 27... Not worth it IMO.



> at the end of the day love is the kind of guy just good enough to get you beat , he's a 3rd guy on offense because he doesn't create for others and isn't extremely efficient on shots created for him (like lets say a howard or guy like dirk)


Could it be that his efficiency is a product of being the #1 guy on a team with NO #2 or #3 option?


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Unless you are a team that has no plans to be any good anytime soon, his value is pretty low. Not because of his talent, but because he has a horrible contract and there is no guarantee that he will ever play in the NBA. Would Mirotic even want to play for a team like the T-Wolves? Lets just say hes fine with that, I would then have to wait till 2014 or 2015 to even negotiate a buyout, or even wait till 2016 in hopes that his player option isn't picked up. THEN, we would have to wait another year or 2 for him to get acclimated to the NBA game... So we probably would not see a return on the investment till hes 26 or 27... Not worth it IMO.


i agree he's not worth it for the bulls which is why i say they should include him in a deal, the bulls want to be good now if not great . so it makes sense for the bulls to use the pick/player to upgrade one of their positions.

the wolves are still building themselves up so if in 3 years they get a lottery pick type talent , its great they may be out of the lottery and it will be like a gift player or not and they will have an additional lottery talent on their roster, they are drafting in the lottery this year and in all honesty probably next year too.




> Could it be that his efficiency is a product of being the #1 guy on a team with NO #2 or #3 option?


what's rubio? pekovic?

rubio is their franchise guy at this point and pekovic is pretty good , but love shot 35% from the field this year when he played with them so i'm saying no, i'm saying Love isn't good enough to be the best player on a good team or even the 2nd best on most good teams.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> i agree he's not worth it for the bulls which is why i say they should include him in a deal, the bulls want to be good now if not great . so it makes sense for the bulls to use the pick/player to upgrade one of their positions.
> 
> the wolves are still building themselves up so if in 3 years they get a lottery pick type talent , its great they may be out of the lottery and it will be like a gift player or not and they will have an additional lottery talent on their roster, they are drafting in the lottery this year and in all honesty probably next year too.


I agree, but going back to value, I just don't see how ANY team in the NBA can give up a player of Loves quality for a guy with relatively no real value unless he decides to play here. 



> what's rubio? pekovic?
> 
> rubio is their franchise guy at this point and pekovic is pretty good , but love shot 35% from the field this year when he played with them so i'm saying no, i'm saying Love isn't good enough to be the best player on a good team or even the 2nd best on most good teams.


Rubio is not a quality scorer in this league, he is the primary ball distributor who is a very inefficient scorer and at this point cant even shoot. As for Pekovic he has had a breakout season, his first real season playing starter minutes. Since Love has been out for the majority of the season, its quite possible that Pekovic can be that third or second option, but we just have to wait and see once everyone is healthy over there.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> There is no guarantee that Mirotic is even coming over to play and there is even less of a guarantee that he will be anywhere near as good as a Carlos Boozer replacement, let alone a much needed second superstar.



It seems you're not really paying attention to the situation then.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> The problem with all of this is that who knows when Mirotic will to play in the NBA. I guarantee you the Wolves would laugh at the idea of making Mirotic the center piece of any trade. The guy realistically won't even be wearing an NBA jersey until 2016, which makes the idea of Mirotic as a future Bulls savior as one of the dumbest things I have ever heard Bulls fans say.



2016 is not the contemplated timeline. It's one more season and then he comes over.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> 2016 is not the contemplated timeline. It's one more season and then he comes over.


Mostly correct. 2014-15 is the season where it becomes about financially break-even to come over and play. This is when the Bulls can offer him a MLE deal and his buyout lessens. It will be financially advantageous for him to come over in 2015-16, and his contract is up after that.

He probably has a 60% chance of coming over in 2014-15, a 30% chance in 2015-16, and 10% outside of that window or not at all. He will be 23 if he comes over in the 2014-15 season.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Rhyder said:


> Mostly correct. 2014-15 is the season where it becomes about financially break-even to come over and play. This is when the Bulls can offer him a MLE deal and his buyout lessens. It will be financially advantageous for him to come over in 2015-16, and his contract is up after that.
> 
> He probably has a 60% chance of coming over in 2014-15, a 30% chance in 2015-16, and 10% outside of that window or not at all. He will be 23 if he comes over in the 2014-15 season.


This is where I was drawing my information from:

http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-b...umbers-behind-the-mirotic-contract-situation/

That shows that Mirotic would take a $5+ million hit if he came over next year, but a $2+ million gain if he comes over in 2014. So, for Mirotic, that seems better than simply hitting the break-even point.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> It seems you're not really paying attention to the situation then.


Really, where is the guarantee that hes coming over here? 

As recently as January he gave an interview and AGAIN stated that his priority is with Real Madrid and that the NBA isn't even on his mind right now. 



> "everyone would like to play there and that someday it *may *happen"


You got to remember that this guy is getting paid a ton of money over there and playing in a place that he absolutely loves. He has the potential to be the highest paid player in Europe after this current deal. And for those who say "Well the MLE would make him more money." you aren't even taking into consideration that the club pays for his house/apartment as well. 

So you would basically be asking Mirotic to give up a sweet deal, pay out of pocket a buy out and travel to play for less money? Sure, if he plays like a stud he could make a ton more money, but that's way down the line right now. 



> "I can't tell you right now when, but for sure I want to be totally ready when I take that step,'' Mirotic told the Tribune. "Currently I have a contract with Real Madrid and personal and team goals that I'd like to achieve. I want to improve as a player, and to get this goal (of playing for the Bulls), it's not advisable to go fast.''


Mirotic has interest in playing the NBA, but it doesn't sound like hes in a rush or honestly really itching to go to the NBA. Rubio was a different story, the guy WANTED to play in the NBA really badly.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> This is where I was drawing my information from:
> 
> http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-b...umbers-behind-the-mirotic-contract-situation/
> 
> That shows that Mirotic would take a $5+ million hit if he came over next year, but a $2+ million gain if he comes over in 2014. So, for Mirotic, that seems better than simply hitting the break-even point.


I had not seen that article. Good stuff.

I had manually calculated the 2014-15 salary in another thread before, and calculated he would make $650k over the first three years under my set of assumptions. This article seems to indicate that number is actually $1.4 million over 3 years.

2015-16 I assumed about 900k over two years. The article assumed 1.08M over two years.

Assuming these numbers are more accurate than mine, his per/year differential is almost identical whether he comes over in 14-15 vs. waiting any longer. It does strengthen the case that 14-15 is the most likely year he comes over, unless Chicago is paying the tax that year and can only offer the mini MLE.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Really, where is the guarantee that hes coming over here?


Let's think about this for a sec, Ted. Why would somebody put a guarantee on a box? Hmmm, very interesting. 

Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box 'cause he wants you to feel all warm and toasty inside. 

Course it does. Why shouldn't it? Ya figure you put that little box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, Ted? 

The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? Building model airplanes says the little fairy; well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser, and your daughter's knocked up. I seen it a hundred times. 

Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of shit. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> I agree, but going back to value, I just don't see how ANY team in the NBA can give up a player of Loves quality for a guy with relatively no real value unless he decides to play here.


its not just mirotic , but him and boozer , and my point with love is all teams have players in specific roles .

Love doesn't create offense , and he generally doesn't create for himself as much as he is used as a finisher of plays ...when he gets the ball he is supposed to shoot it and he does which is why he avg. so few assists .

Love is not a good defender , not very good on his man not so good in the team concept either .

for a team to feature a player with these 2 attributes is usually very unwise unless they are an unstoppable scorer , which he is not or at least an extremely efficient scorer which he also is not ...and this fact is proven in his won loss record , he's been a perennial loser his entire time in the league 





> Rubio is not a quality scorer in this league, he is the primary ball distributor who is a very inefficient scorer and at this point cant even shoot. As for Pekovic he has had a breakout season, his first real season playing starter minutes. Since Love has been out for the majority of the season, its quite possible that Pekovic can be that third or second option, but we just have to wait and see once everyone is healthy over there.


why do we have to wait and see , the t'wolves have seen enough, they are building around rubio who according to you cant even shoot.

the simple truth is this if his game as a star player translated into winning basketball it would be obvious by now he's been in the league 5 years , the 3 seasons before this season his teams lost at a rate of 60 losses a season .

what real #1 option goes through that? 

could you see lebron , wade , durant , kobe, dirk, duncan , chris paul, rose being relatively healthy have a 3 year stretch like that even in their 1st 3 years or in love's case 2-4?

no of course not and its because they are so much better than he is , which is why he's not a real #1 guy , a real superstar who is healthy should never lose 50 let alone 65 or more which love has done twice.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> its not just mirotic , but him and boozer , and my point with love is all teams have players in specific roles .
> 
> Love doesn't create offense , and he generally doesn't create for himself as much as he is used as a finisher of plays ...when he gets the ball he is supposed to shoot it and he does which is why he avg. so few assists .
> 
> ...


Fair enough, but don't you think playing with a Rose and Noah, would make Love a more efficient player. And, while Boozer is atrocious on defense its not like his presence is hurting Tom's style of team defense all that much. I would also not be so critical of his teams win loss records, Kevin Durant din't have a stellar record until Westbrook, Green and Harden starting developing. 




> why do we have to wait and see , the t'wolves have seen enough, they are building around rubio who according to you cant even shoot.


Well hes a career 35% shooter, so lets not act like I'm insulting the guy. Also, the reason they are building around Rubio is because they fear Love is leaving and Derrick Williams is an unknown. 



> the simple truth is this if his game as a star player translated into winning basketball it would be obvious by now he's been in the league 5 years , the 3 seasons before this season his teams lost at a rate of 60 losses a season .


Have you seen those rosters? Have you seen the idiotic moves Kahn has made and busts that were drafted? Dont forget that they are playing in the West as well. 



> what real #1 option goes through that?
> 
> could you see lebron , wade , durant , kobe, dirk, duncan , chris paul, rose being relatively healthy have a 3 year stretch like that even in their 1st 3 years or in love's case 2-4?


Maybe because Love is not a #1. I never said hes a legit #1, but thats the role he plays out of need and hes put up some fantastic numbers doing so. 

The counter point could be that these guys are better players and have had better talent around them. Lebrons record his first 3 seasons vs the west was 38-50, Durant was on 2 sub 25 win teams his first 2 years. The truth is Love is an often injured player who has improved yet has played on some truly awful teams. He would come to Chicago as the #2 option, which is a role I think he would flourish in.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Really, where is the guarantee that hes coming over here?
> 
> As recently as January he gave an interview and AGAIN stated that his priority is with Real Madrid and that the NBA isn't even on his mind right now.


Nice moving of the goalposts/setting up of a strawman. I didn't say there was a guarantee. But you are painting with too strong a brush when you indicate that there is a whole lot of doubt he'll be over here.

And good lord, of course he's going to say that Real Madrid is his priority. He knows he's not coming to the NBA for more than another year. And you absolutely have to make a platitudinous response like that when asked a question about the NBA. It's no different than asking an NBA player to opine about the next series when they haven't won the current one or asking them about free agent destinations while still under contract. 



> You got to remember that this guy is getting paid a ton of money over there and playing in a place that he absolutely loves. He has the potential to be the highest paid player in Europe after this current deal. And for those who say "Well the MLE would make him more money." you aren't even taking into consideration that the club pays for his house/apartment as well.
> 
> So you would basically be asking Mirotic to give up a sweet deal, pay out of pocket a buy out and travel to play for less money? Sure, if he plays like a stud he could make a ton more money, but that's way down the line right now.


His earning potential is massively greater here. His MLE deal would make him more money, and then a 2nd deal, in his mid-twenties, could earn him a boatload of money. This isn't really even controversial.

I can't help you though if you think simply the appeal of living in Spain would make him stay. Chicago is not Spain, sure.



> Mirotic has interest in playing the NBA, but it doesn't sound like hes in a rush or honestly really itching to go to the NBA. Rubio was a different story, the guy WANTED to play in the NBA really badly.



Ehh, whatever. There aren't many Euro players who can come to the NBA and earn more money and elect not to. I'm just of the mind that it is more likely than not that he'll come over. It's what virtually anyone who can does.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Rhyder said:


> I had not seen that article. Good stuff.
> 
> I had manually calculated the 2014-15 salary in another thread before, and calculated he would make $650k over the first three years under my set of assumptions. This article seems to indicate that number is actually $1.4 million over 3 years.
> 
> ...



Right. It would seem Chicago has to ensure they are not a taxpayer that year, and the mini MLE probably won't be good enough. So, be ready for the pitchforks and torches that year when the Bulls slip under the tax threshold!


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Rhyder said:


> Let's think about this for a sec, Ted. Why would somebody put a guarantee on a box? Hmmm, very interesting.
> 
> Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box 'cause he wants you to feel all warm and toasty inside.
> 
> ...


Well played, sir.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> Nice moving of the goalposts/setting up of a strawman. I didn't say there was a guarantee. But you are painting with too strong a brush when you indicate that there is a whole lot of doubt he'll be over here.
> 
> And good lord, of course he's going to say that Real Madrid is his priority. He knows he's not coming to the NBA for more than another year. And you absolutely have to make a platitudinous response like that when asked a question about the NBA. It's no different than asking an NBA player to opine about the next series when they haven't won the current one or asking them about free agent destinations while still under contract.


Its one thing to feel this way if your the Bulls or another major market team. But, if your the T-Wolves you got lucky that Rubio really wanted to play in the NBA, but nothing so far has told me that Mirotic really feels the same way or would be willing to even play in Minnesota. 



> His earning potential is massively greater here. His MLE deal would make him more money, and then a 2nd deal, in his mid-twenties, could earn him a boatload of money. This isn't really even controversial.


I agree about his earning potential. As for the MLE, it really depends on how much the MLE will be when its time to bring him over. The MLE right now is what? 3.5 million a year for taxed teams and 5 million for teams under the luxury tax? Hes making 3.5 million Euro now, thats roughly 4.5 million? So unless hes willing to pay out of pocket the massive 2.5 million Euro buy out, I find it very hard to believe that he will be here before his contract is up. 



> Ehh, whatever. There aren't many Euro players who can come to the NBA and earn more money and elect not to. I'm just of the mind that it is more likely than not that he'll come over. It's what virtually anyone who can does.


Unless he makes even more money staying home. Who's to say Real Madrid or CSK Moscow doesn't make him the highest paid player in Euroleague. Either way, it looks like 2015-2016 is the more realistic date.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Fair enough, but don't you think playing with a Rose and Noah, would make Love a more efficient player. And, while Boozer is atrocious on defense its not like his presence is hurting Tom's style of team defense all that much. I would also not be so critical of his teams win loss records, Kevin Durant din't have a stellar record until Westbrook, Green and Harden starting developing.


durant won 50 by his 3rd season and its not just durant any superstar even when their team is so bad they get the 1st pick and were the worst team in the league the year before they were drafted....the thunder were intentionally bad and it didn't last 3 years with a superstar talent on their roster.

and its worth noting the bulls are much better defensively when boozer is not out there and i assume the same would be the case is you swapped out boozer for love, it wouldn't cripple them defensively but they wouldn't be as good...







> Have you seen those rosters? Have you seen the idiotic moves Kahn has made and busts that were drafted? Dont forget that they are playing in the West as well.


when he got there they had al jefferson who is winning substantially more in utah ....his 2nd best player paul milsap his 3rd option is gordon haywood . last year he carried his team to the playoffs and he won 39 this season , busts or no busts Love should be doing better especially since he is supposed to be better than jefferson.

so you can talk about his help til you are blue in the face but is milsap a real 2nd option is he so much better than pekovic and rubio?

is it an excuse for jefferson to lose 50 or more times a season?





> Maybe because Love is not a #1. I never said hes a legit #1, but thats the role he plays out of need and hes put up some fantastic numbers doing so.
> 
> The counter point could be that these guys are better players and have had better talent around them. Lebrons record his first 3 seasons vs the west was 38-50, Durant was on 2 sub 25 win teams his first 2 years. The truth is Love is an often injured player who has improved yet has played on some truly awful teams. He would come to Chicago as the #2 option, which is a role I think he would flourish in.


no gaudy numbers are fantastic if it doesn't lead to winning, he's been in the league 5 years . he has had more than enough time to prove himself a player who impacts games at a star level. and the truth is players like him dont win titles not as a top 2 guy anyway.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> durant won 50 by his 3rd season and its not just durant any superstar even when their team is so bad they get the 1st pick and were the worst team in the league the year before they were drafted....the thunder were intentionally bad and it didn't last 3 years with a superstar talent on their roster.


They had 2 superstar talents, 1 star talent in Harden, 1 good talent in Green and then one defensive superstar in Ibaka only a few years later. You are under the assumption that a superstar is automatically an all time great. When you talk about Kobe, Durant, Lebron and Dirk when comparing Love, you are talking about 4 sure Hall of Fame players and all time greats. You can be a superstar and not be considered an all time great, T-Mac for example. 



> and its worth noting the bulls are much better defensively when boozer is not out there and i assume the same would be the case is you swapped out boozer for love, it wouldn't cripple them defensively but they wouldn't be as good...


They were much better defensive last year when their bench played more, but it dint do jack either. 



> when he got there they had al jefferson who is winning substantially more in utah ....his 2nd best player paul milsap his 3rd option is gordon haywood . last year he carried his team to the playoffs and he won 39 this season , busts or no busts Love should be doing better especially since he is supposed to be better than jefferson.


Whats the point? When Jefferson was with the T-Wolves they were a 20 win team as well. Heck, Kevin Garnets last 2-3 years in Minnesota were nothing to be proud of either. You don't think if Love was fully healthy this year, they would have not won 31 games this season? 




> so you can talk about his help til you are blue in the face but is milsap a real 2nd option is he so much better than pekovic and rubio?
> 
> is it an excuse for jefferson to lose 50 or more times a season?


You are talking as if 2 guys make a team. The Wolves as a team are not as good as the Jazz who aren't even that good of a team. You wan't to put all those loses on ONE guy then fine. I just think its silly to put all the blame on the only guy on that team who averages double digit rebounds, score over 20ppg, can get you close to 9 fta a game and is probably their best 3 point shooter as well.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> They had 2 superstar talents, 1 star talent in Harden, 1 good talent in Green and then one defensive superstar in Ibaka only a few years later. You are under the assumption that a superstar is automatically an all time great. When you talk about Kobe, Durant, Lebron and Dirk when comparing Love, you are talking about 4 sure Hall of Fame players and all time greats. You can be a superstar and not be considered an all time great, T-Mac for example.


i hate to break it to you but if you are talking about 2nd bananas on title teams they are almost always all time greats and if they aren't that they are sure fire hall of famers, 

so yes he needs to be that type of talent or player if you are going to tout love for the job ...unless you are banking on a major set of unforeseeable upsets happening.






> Whats the point? When Jefferson was with the T-Wolves they were a 20 win team as well. Heck, Kevin Garnets last 2-3 years in Minnesota were nothing to be proud of either. You don't think if Love was fully healthy this year, they would have not won 31 games this season?


jefferson despite being considered an inferior player consistently winning more with similarly crappy supporting casts . you were blaming rubio and pekovic for the wolves crummy record , but jefferson's 2nd and 3rd best player aren't really any better. thats the point.





> You are talking as if 2 guys make a team. The Wolves as a team are not as good as the Jazz who aren't even that good of a team. You wan't to put all those loses on ONE guy then fine. I just think its silly to put all the blame on the only guy on that team who averages double digit rebounds, score over 20ppg, can get you close to 9 fta a game and is probably their best 3 point shooter as well.


1 or 2 guys dont make a team but you only go as far as your top players take you ....you can put out all the gaudy numbers you want, its your contribution to winning that counts most.

its not just a right now fact it a historical one i could throw up bob mcadoo's 1st 5 year stats which are even more impressive than love's whats his contribution to winning? , its not about your stats because you cant bring them with you. if it doesn't work out you aren't going to hear john paxson say " well he avg 26 points in minny."

its about what your contributions are to the bulls if he were to come there...because the whole point of bringing him to chicago would be to win a title...right?


which is to say yet again he is a very good basketball player and definitely an upgrade over boozer and if i were the bulls i would certainly attempt to trade for him but no , he would be on the bulls less than that elite co-star for rose or 2nd guy who gets the bulls over the top and because of that i would never send all the bulls assets mentioned by bill simmons in a trade for him.


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## Ragingbull33 (Apr 10, 2005)

Amen! I know they're just board postings and fantasy articles, but everytime the bulls are mentioned in a trade they have us giving up waaaay more than any other team in actual trades




thebizkit69u said:


> First of all, I'm not giving up that much, especially when teams like the Lakers don't even come close to giving up that much for players they want. The way I look at it, Kevin Love isn't going to be ok just being traded to just any team, so I would imagine there is a list of 2-3 teams that he would sign an extension with, that means the Bulls don't necessarily have to give up a ton. Its not like they will be competing against 20 other teams.
> 
> You offer them Boozer and or Deng, the Charlotte pick, Jimmy Butler and 2 conditional future first round picks. Heck the Lakers got Dwight Howard for what amounted to be a conditional first round pick in 2017, a couple second rounders, an injury prone Bynum, Christian Eyenga and Josh McRoberts for gods sake. The only snag I can see is if Miami or Indiana gets involved, I could easily see Miami trying to rebuild around Lebron and Love, using Chris Bosh who is a much better player than his stats in Miami suggest, as trade bait. Indiana could be bold and trade Roy Hibbert and Granger to Minnesota for Love, Luke Ridnour and another bum. I think the one big thing on our side is that Love likes Chicago, he likes Rose and he likes Thibs. Also, I doubt the Wolves would trade him in conference... Cause If I'm the Thunder, I'm trading Westbrook for Love in a second.


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