# Question About UCONN and R. Gay



## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

Within the past 10-12 years, when hasn't a UCONN hyped product turned out to be A stud?

Ray Allen- Multiple All-Star and one of the best pure scorers in the game
Rip Hamilton- One of the best all-around players in the L, and an all-star calibur player
Ben Gordon- ROY (iirc), 4th quarter clutch player and a great scorer
Emeka Okafor- Great rebounder, solid rookie year, nice defender
Charlie V- One of the best rookies from last years class, very much like Gay because he seemed to play without a cause but maybe it was UConn's system?

Rudy Gay could be a stud, I don't want to pass on him because we don't think he's got it all upstairs, just look at CV and UConns track record....pretty amazing.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

MAS RipCity said:


> Within the past 10-12 years, when hasn't a UCONN hyped product turned out to be A stud?
> 
> Ray Allen- Multiple All-Star and one of the best pure scorers in the game
> Rip Hamilton- One of the best all-around players in the L, and an all-star calibur player
> ...


ah..the old "track record' argument...It's why we can't trade Travis, because look at what happened to Jermaine!! 

anyways, here's a list of Uconn players (via bballreference.com). I deleted the players before 1990's.

Allen, Ray 1996-2004 
Burrell, Scott 1993-2000 
Butler, Caron 2002-2004 
El-amin, Khalid 2000-2000 
George, Tate 1990-1994 
Gordon, Ben 2004-2004 
Hamilton, Richard 1999-2004 
Knight, Travis 1996-2002 
Marshall, Donny 1995-2002 
Marshall, Donyell 1994-2004 
Okafor, Emeka 2004-2004 
Ollie, Kevin 1997-2004 
Robinson, Clifford 1989-2004 
Smith, Chris 1992-1994 
Villanueva, Charlie 2005- 
Voskuhl, Jake 2000-2004 

Outside of that list, only 2 are really "can't miss" players, and one of them took a while to get there (Hamilton) in the eyes of the average NBA fan.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SMiLE said:


> Outside of that list, only 2 are really "can't miss" players, and one of them took a while to get there (Hamilton) in the eyes of the average NBA fan.


Cliff Robinson and Donyell Marshall have been solid NBA players, Okafor, Gordon and Villanueva are all talented young players in the NBA and Ray Allen and Rip Hamilton are good to star level players.

It's a very impressive history. Doesn't mean much regarding Rudy Gay, though since he's not very similar to any of those players except maybe Villanueva.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

Wow. That is a very impressive list. Nearly every UConn player drafted high has turned out to be a quality NBA starter.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Yes they have turned out ok. Just don't bring up how those Gonzaga players drafted in the first round have done because Zags and Smile get testy


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

mediocre man said:


> Yes they have turned out ok. Just don't bring up how those Gonzaga players drafted in the first round have done because Zags and Smile get testy


not true. I don't care about what former gonzaga players did (or didn't do). Comparing how a player did to former players, is kind of fruitless. You have those who say it matters, and make comparisons and those who say it doesn't, and say those comparisons are faulty.

Richie Frahm sucking and being 1 dimensional (and not that good at it) has 0 bearing on how Morrison will do, just as John Stockton being great had no bearing on how good Dickau was.

One has nothing to do with the other. How Caron Butler does in the NBA doesn't mean anything to how Rudy Gay will or won't do.


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## Tince (Jul 11, 2004)

UConn and UNC players usually do well in the pros, and I think it has something to do with the systems those teams run. Compared to Duke, UNC used to run a more pro-style offense which could give scouts a sneak peak at how a players game would transfer into the NBA level. Now, I wouldn't take a UConn guy just because they've had a good past, but I think it could play a small weight into making a pick. If I were a scout and I couldn't tell who was better between a guy who went to UConn or UNC, vs a guy who went to Gonzaga or played in Europe, I'd go with the UConn/UNC guy. 

I'd lump Rudy Gay in the category of 4-5 players who aren't worthy of a #1 pick, but one of them will land in that spot.


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## handclap problematic (Nov 6, 2003)

SMiLE said:


> not true. I don't care about what former gonzaga players did (or didn't do). Comparing how a player did to former players, is kind of fruitless. You have those who say it matters, and make comparisons and those who say it doesn't, and say those comparisons are faulty.
> 
> Richie Frahm sucking and being 1 dimensional (and not that good at it) has 0 bearing on how Morrison will do, just as John Stockton being great had no bearing on how good Dickau was.
> 
> One has nothing to do with the other. How Caron Butler does in the NBA doesn't mean anything to how Rudy Gay will or won't do.



I agree. Every player is a completely different case. You really can't just look at what players from a certain school has done, or you will end up pigeon-holing yourself. And, I don't think scouts look at it either. They look at that individual player and his merits. If put a lot of stock in school draft history, then NBA teams might have stopped taking Duke players so high, but you still see them taken every year regardless of Duke's history of high draft picks. 
Speaking if Caron Butler. Does he remind anyone else of a young Bonzi Wells (without the craziness factor)? I have been watching him in the playoffs and I really can't help being reminded of Bonzi. 
Prunetang


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Tince said:


> UConn and UNC players usually do well in the pros, and I think it has something to do with the systems those teams run. Compared to Duke, UNC used to run a more pro-style offense which could give scouts a sneak peak at how a players game would transfer into the NBA level.


Very good point. In both college basketball and college football, some teams use pro-style offenses and some use gimmicky or simplified offenses that allow players to pile up numbers that they wouldn't in a real offense.


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## Tince (Jul 11, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Very good point. In both college basketball and college football, some teams use pro-style offenses and some use gimmicky or simplified offenses that allow players to pile up numbers that they wouldn't in a real offense.


 Exactly!!!


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> Very good point. In both college basketball and college football, some teams use pro-style offenses and some use gimmicky or simplified offenses that allow players to pile up numbers that they wouldn't in a real offense.


yep. thats true of noah, morrison, redick, gay, and others (including bargani).

the opposite is also true of all those guys too.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

One thing I haven;'t really seen mentioned a whole lot is Rudy's teammates.

UCONN will have 
2 probably Lotto picks (Gay, Wiliams)
1 mid rounder (Armstong)
1 Late 1st (Boone)
1 top half 2nd (Brown)
1 late 2nd rounder (Anderson)

Balance = Less individual stats


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Schilly said:


> One thing I haven;'t really seen mentioned a whole lot is Rudy's teammates.
> 
> UCONN will have
> 2 probably Lotto picks (Gay, Wiliams)
> ...


looks like UNC last year. They had what, 6 players taken? I'm not sure what that "proves", in the long run.


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## Nightfly (Sep 24, 2002)

It may just show how good of a college team these schools had, but not much more.


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## ebott (Jan 7, 2003)

Everyone on your list actually did something to prove their use when they played at UCONN. Rudy did not.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

ebott said:


> Everyone on your list actually did something to prove their use when they played at UCONN. Rudy did not.


Wow, that's weird. I could have sworn he was a starter at UConn. That he was the leading scorer of the Huskies this year as a 19 year-old sophomore. That he was second on the team in minutes played, had twice as many steals a game as anyone else on his team, and was pretty much his team's best player.

But he didn't prove his use?

What are you smoking?

Mas's original question is a good one: who is the last UConn flop?

Ed O.


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## Tince (Jul 11, 2004)

double post


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## Tince (Jul 11, 2004)

Ed O said:


> Wow, that's weird. I could have sworn he was a starter at UConn. That he was the leading scorer of the Huskies this year as a 19 year-old sophomore. That he was second on the team in minutes played, had twice as many steals a game as anyone else on his team, and was pretty much his team's best player.
> 
> But he didn't prove his use?
> 
> ...


 co-sign

I guess if you only watched the tournament you might think he was worthless, but that was only 3 games.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SMiLE said:


> yep. thats true of noah, morrison, redick, gay, and others (including bargani).


Yes. Some colleges play pro-style offenses, some don't. That's true of everyone...and those who played in a more pro-style set, like Gay, are more projectable.

Bargnani plays in neither a gimmick offense, nor an NBA-style pro offense. His numbers are actually _depressed_ by the European style. So he's in somewhat of a different category.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> Yes. Some colleges play pro-style offenses, some don't. That's true of everyone...and those who played in a more pro-style set, like Gay, are more projectable.
> 
> Bargnani plays in neither a gimmick offense, nor an NBA-style pro offense. His numbers are actually _depressed_ by the European style. So he's in somewhat of a different category.


they play like the suns I thought. no defense, spreading the offense. inflated #'s.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SMiLE said:


> they play like the suns I thought. no defense, spreading the offense. inflated #'s.


Can you substantiate that they don't play defense and that they have inflated numbers? They spread the ball around, but that doesn't mean inflated numbers. In fact, it means deflated numbers for the best players like Bargnani. They also have shorter games, further deflating per-game numbers.

If Bargnani got fed the ball, like top players in college and the NBA, and played in 40 minute games, like players in college, his numbers would be much higher.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> Can you substantiate that they don't play defense and that they have inflated numbers?


sure, when you can substantiate what you said.


> They spread the ball around, but that doesn't mean inflated numbers. In fact, it means deflated numbers for the best players like Bargnani. They also have shorter games, further deflating per-game numbers.


and the college game is longer?



> If Bargnani got fed the ball, like top players in college and the NBA, and played in 40 minute games, like players in college, his numbers would be much higher.


you don't know that. and you don't know if his #'s would be up near what morrison (or redick, or whoever the hell was 3rd) would be.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SMiLE said:


> sure, when you can substantiate what you said.


Substantiate what?



> and the college game is longer?


Yes.



> you don't know that.


You're being disingenuous if you're really trying to suggest that he wouldn't have better numbers with more touches and playing more minutes.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> Substantiate what?
> 
> Yes.


european ball is shorter than 40 minutes?


> You're being disingenuous if you're really trying to suggest that he wouldn't have better numbers with more touches and playing more minutes.


not enough to justify the excitement people get for him.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SMiLE said:


> european ball is shorter than 40 minutes?


That's what I thought our Italian friends said.



> not enough to justify the excitement people get for him.


That's awfully subjective.  I don't think Morrison plays well enough in college to justify the excitement his fans have for him. So I guess that goes both ways.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> That's what I thought our Italian friends said.


weird. this box score suggets 200 minutes for 5 starters.

thats 40 minutes available per starter.

hm...you not knowing this seems to scream "I actually don't know much about european basketball and how to read their stats". 



> That's awfully subjective.  I don't think Morrison plays well enough in college to justify the excitement his fans have for him. So I guess that goes both ways.


no ****.

here are, if I understand it right, the seasons stats.

http://www.euroleague.net/stats/statsTeam.jsp?id=TRE


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SMiLE said:


> hm...you not knowing this seems to scream "I actually don't know much about european basketball and how to read their stats".


I don't read their stats. As I said in my previous post, I thought that's what the two Italian posters said.



> no ****.


Don't make a meaningless observation if you bridle at being told it goes both ways, Sherlock.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> I don't read their stats. As I said in my previous post, I thought that's what the two Italian posters said.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't make a meaningless observation if you bridle at being told it goes both ways, Sherlock.


ive been saying it goes both ways for a while. you are the one who said that the "NBA system" type games that college teams play skews the stats and not the europeans leagues...because they don't play the same amount of time as college teams do.

so the argument is the european teams play less and he scores more...which isn't true.

so whats your next subjective argument about european league basketball that "can't" be made about the college teams? :angel:


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## Samuel (Jan 1, 2003)

SMiLE said:


> ive been saying it goes both ways for a while. you are the one who said that the "NBA system" type games that college teams play skews the stats and not the europeans leagues...because they don't play the same amount of time as college teams do.
> 
> so the argument is the european teams play less and he scores more...which isn't true.
> 
> so whats your next subjective argument about european league basketball that "can't" be made about the college teams? :angel:


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SMiLE said:


> you are the one who said that the "NBA system" type games that college teams play skews the stats and not the europeans leagues...


That's not what I said, actually.



> because they don't play the same amount of time as college teams do


No, that was only one thing I said and completely independant from the issue of pro-style college offenses versus gimmick or simplified college offenses (an issue which has nothing to do with European leagues).


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## Samuel (Jan 1, 2003)

_Age Group: 
Born between Fall of 86 and Summer of 87_

*Martell Webster, HS*
*Rudy Gay, UConn So*
Gerald Green, HS
Marvin Williams, UNC Fr
Tyrus Thomas, LSU Fr
Josh McRoberts, Duke So
Johan Petro, Euro
Martynas Andriuskevicius, Euro
Louis Williams, HS
Andray Blatche, HS
Ian Mahinmi, Euro
Amir Johnson, HS
Cenk Akyol, Euro
CJ Miles, HS
Ersan Ilyasova, Euro
Jordan Farmar, UCLA So
Julian Wright, Kansas So
Marcus Williams, Arizona So
Ante Tomic, Euro
Jeff Green, Georgetown Jr
Luc Richard Mbah a Moute, UCLA So
Roy Hibbert, Georgetown Jr
Malik Hairston, Oregon Jr

*Maybe we should be a little less expecting of Rudy Gay and take a chance on the guy. After all, he's the same age as Martell Webster.*


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Ed O said:


> Wow, that's weird. I could have sworn he was a starter at UConn. That he was the leading scorer of the Huskies this year as a 19 year-old sophomore. That he was second on the team in minutes played, had twice as many steals a game as anyone else on his team, and was pretty much his team's best player.
> 
> But he didn't prove his use?
> 
> ...


Who cares if he was _supposedly_ the best player on his team (btw, thats the first time I've heard that and if you go to a UCONN message board they'd tell you it was Marcus Williams)....Brian Scalebrine was the best player on his team when he was at USC...I guess you could say well yea, but UCONN's a top 5 team, they are, and they also were one of the leading scoring teams in the nation that had all 5 of their starters scoring in double figures and a bench players scoring in double figures...

If were talking about leading the nation in scoring, thats another thing.

Being a starter and leading your team in scoring has diddly-poo to do with being a good NBA player.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

zagsfan20 said:


> Being a starter and leading your team in scoring has diddly-poo to do with being a good NBA player.


you've set yourself up for a whopper there.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

SMiLE said:


> you've set yourself up for a whopper there.




Ummmmm yeah, what smile said.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Ed O said:


> Mas's original question is a good one: who is the last UConn flop?


Khalid El-Amin.

I guess that's not fair: although he was a star at UConn, people more-or-less knew he wouldn't work in the NBA and he wasn't drafted high (was he drafted at all?)

If you want a UConn star drafted high, then Donyell Marshall is your man. Yes, he's still in the league, but he was drafted, what, 4th? And never worked out for the Wolves. He was seen as flopperoony until people forgot he was a high pick.

(Better players taken after him in 1994:
Juwan Howard
Brian Grant
Eddie Jones
Jalen Rose
Voshon Lenard
and of course, Dontonio Wingfield.)


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Samuel said:


> _Age Group:
> Born between Fall of 86 and Summer of 87_
> 
> *Martell Webster, HS*
> ...


Thanks, but I'd rather take a chance on the fifth player on your list.


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## Backboard Cam (Apr 29, 2003)

meru said:


> Khalid El-Amin.
> 
> I guess that's not fair: although he was a star at UConn, people more-or-less knew he wouldn't work in the NBA and he wasn't drafted high (was he drafted at all?)


Beat me to it. He was drafted, in 2000, and another UCONN player was drafted by the same team (Bulls) one pick before him- Jake Voskuhl


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

meru said:


> Khalid El-Amin.
> 
> I guess that's not fair: although he was a star at UConn, people more-or-less knew he wouldn't work in the NBA and he wasn't drafted high (was he drafted at all?)


Yeah, I don't consider him a flop; he and Voskuhl were both second round picks.



> If you want a UConn star drafted high, then Donyell Marshall is your man. Yes, he's still in the league, but he was drafted, what, 4th? And never worked out for the Wolves. He was seen as flopperoony until people forgot he was a high pick.


Hrm... I suppose he could be considered a flop. Relative to players like GRob and LMurray, though, he's been a pretty good player.



> (Better players taken after him in 1994:
> Juwan Howard
> Brian Grant
> Eddie Jones
> ...


While I will concede Wingfield (naturally), I think that Marshall's had a very similar career to all of those you've listed (except Lenard, who's been worse IMO, and Grant, because of his injuries).

The busts of that draft are players like Sharone Wright, Eric Montross, Carlos Rogers and Khalid Reeves... each of whom were drafted in the top 12. 

Marshall is a bust insofar as he didn't fulfill expectations of where he's picked, but if he's a "bust" then we need to have another term for players like those I just listed who are either out of the league or have trouble sticking because they can't play at a high enough level.

Ed O.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Marshall never panned out the way people thought he might, but developing into a solid player isn't a bust, in my opinion. All players have a range of possibilities for their talent, and someone like Marshall could legitimately have had a range of "solid player" to "star player." Developing into a solid player isn't ideal and it may be the lower end of his potential, but it's not outright failure.

When you draft a player in the top-five, you're (hopefully) buying a higher floor, not just a higher ceiling.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> Marshall never panned out the way people thought he might, but developing into a solid player isn't a bust, in my opinion. All players have a range of possibilities for their talent, and someone like Marshall could legitimately have had a range of "solid player" to "star player." Developing into a solid player isn't ideal and it may be the lower end of his potential, but it's not outright failure.
> 
> When you draft a player in the top-five, you're (hopefully) buying a higher floor, not just a higher ceiling.


so you won't consider bargani, morrison or gay a "bust" (as a blazer) if he has a donyell marshal type career?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SMiLE said:


> so you won't consider bargani, morrison or gay a "bust" (as a blazer) if he has a donyell marshal type career?


No, I wouldn't. I'd be disappointed that they didn't reach the star levels that they had a chance at, but all top prospects won't be stars. I don't consider all those who don't reach stardom to be busts. As I said, I think top prospects have a reasonable range connected to their talent levels, with solid player at the bottom of that. If they don't even end up as that, then I see them as a bust.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

The Rudy Gay backlash is really quite ridiculous...

Yeah, Gay has some question marks, namely centered around his effort...

But he could very well end up as the best NBA player to emerge out of this draft...

As a player has has everything you look for in terms of measureables, athleticism & skillset. I don't see how anyone who has watched UConn or Gay play would refuse to acknowledge that...

Rudy Gay is a perfect example of ridiculous expectations placed on a player, and then fans and media judging him negatively b\c he failed to reach those lofty expectations that were ridiculous in the first place....

By far the biggest question mark with Gay is his effort and intensity level...He definitely seems to just float in some games, and this is a very fair & reasonable concern to have....

What I would like to know is how much of his hot\cold play was a result of his own personality or b\c of the team he played on....

The problem with UConn and how it COULD have possibly affected Gay's play is manyfold IMO...Their offense was dominated by seniors (Rashad Anderson, Denham Brown, Hilton Armstrong), and was almost ENTIRELY run through the hands and DECISON MAKING of Marcus Williams, and it was Williams who seemed to benefit most from that in the NCAA tourney...

Gay as a Sophmore was one of the youngest players who saw any meaningful time for UCONN (Both Boone & Williams are Juniors)

The team was loaded with talent (up to SIX players may be drafted in 2006...4 of those likely in the 1st round...keep that in mind) and Coach Calhoun shuttled players in\out with a pretty high frequency, leaving one to wonder if that could disrupt a players' ability to get into the flow of the game...

Add that to Calhoun pulling no punches and his willingness to pull a player for a single error and sit him on the bench for awhile..and I think it is reasonable to wonder if it wasn't playing on such a talented and older UCONN team (which he still lead in scoring BTW) that had more to do with his uneven effort than Gay himself...

My guess would be a little bit of both...

Remember too, that Calhoun publically stated how he thought Gay was nowhere near ready for the NBA, and he has previously stated how he hates the whole underclassmen to the NBA process in particular...in fact I thought I read somewhere where he has told prospective recruits he doesn't want them to come to UCONN unless they are willing to commit to the program for MORE than 2 years...Gay flirted with the NBA last year, and all but stated near the beginning of the season that he was coming out this year...and you don't think that this could have had something to do with Gay's play as well?

I certainly do....

Also interesting of note was how quickly both Gay & Boone declared for the NBA draft after UCONN's season was done...I don't think that was just a coincidence...both have continually flirted with the NBA & both players play was sporadic at times...and I wouldn't put it past ANY coach, particularly Calhoun to use minutes as a way to send a player a message...as in, your not ready for the NBA kid...

I think if you are POR you really have to take a long look at Rudy Gay and...in particualr see where his head is at, if you can...b\c he could really blow up in the NBA, when he isn't as restrained as he was in college IMO...

I look at him as a risky pick...b\c question marks about a players head\heart are usually always hard to gauge...but he probably has the biggest upside in the draft IMO, but for a team that has suffered from Wallace and Miles failure to live up to their "upside" would NAsh & co. take that risk?

My guess is they will not...


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> Who cares if he was _supposedly_ the best player on his team (btw, thats the first time I've heard that...


No it's not. Just a couple weeks back you were throwing out similar indignation towards me for stating the same exact thing about Gay being the best player on the Huskies. The same contention has been stated in other threads by some in this thread many times. 

He's not your guy... we get it.

STOMP


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

zagsfan20 said:


> Being a starter and leading your team in scoring has diddly-poo to do with being a good NBA player.


Since no-one else did I can't miss the opportunity....And did we mention Conferances?


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

I feel sorry for whoever the Blazers draft.

Things are so damn polarized, there will be a large block of fans openly rooting for the kid to fail - no matter who it is. 

It is just damn sad.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Schilly said:


> Since no-one else did I can't miss the opportunity....And did we mention Conferances?


well I did address it, in a subtle way.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Oldmangrouch said:


> I feel sorry for whoever the Blazers draft.
> 
> Things are so damn polarized, there will be a large block of fans openly rooting for the kid to fail - no matter who it is.
> 
> It is just damn sad.


it's like that every draft. last year it was green vs....hm..who was the other guy?


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

STOMP said:


> No it's not. Just a couple weeks back you were throwing out similar indignation towards me for stating the same exact thing about Gay being the best player on the Huskies. The same contention has been stated in other threads by some in this thread many times.
> 
> He's not your guy... we get it.
> 
> STOMP


I'm talking about actual Connecticut Husky fans not just some Gay pollyanna....


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Schilly said:


> Since no-one else did I can't miss the opportunity....And did we mention Conferances?


He lead the _nation_ in scoring...and nearly doubled Gay's points per game.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

zagsfan20 said:


> I'm talking about actual Connecticut Husky fans not just some Gay pollyanna....


gay pollyanna? 

they're called lesbians zagsfan. jeesh.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

SMiLE said:


> gay pollyanna?
> 
> they're called lesbians zagsfan. jeesh.


 :biggrin:


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## Tince (Jul 11, 2004)

zagsfan20 said:


> He lead the _nation_ in scoring...and nearly doubled Gay's points per game.


 I wonder what Gay would do on a mid-major team two years from now when he's 21.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Tince said:


> I wonder what Gay would do on a mid-major team two years from now when he's 21.


Probably disappear like he does now.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Tince said:


> I wonder what Gay would do on a mid-major team two years from now when he's 21.


 Yeah, we'll never know because, unlike Morrison, he's talented enough to enter the NBA, as a high draft pick, at a younger age.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Yeah, we'll never know because, unlike Morrison, he's talented enough to enter the NBA, as a high draft pick, at a younger age.


Many people thought Morrison was going to enter the draft after his sophmore season....In fact, a lot of people thought he was stupid not to because he was being predicted as a lottery pick...

But nice attempt at 'pot shotting' Morrison my savior :angel: , even though you're actually wrong.


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## Tince (Jul 11, 2004)

zagsfan20 said:


> Probably disappear like he does now.


 Come on ZagFan, you know enough about basketball that you shouldn't be saying silly things like that.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

zagsfan20 said:


> Many people thought Morrison was going to enter the draft after his sophmore season....In fact, a lot of people thought he was stupid not to because he was being predicted as a lottery pick...


He was predicted as a low lottery pick or out of the lottery altogether. That's almost surely why he went back to school. His sophomore season wasn't all that impressive and he raised his stock tremendously with his 2005-06 season.

Rudy Gay is going to go as high as Morrison will _now_, despite being younger and having yet to play as a more advanced player.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Speaking of disappearing acts, look at these stats. This guy doesn't show up at ALL.

4 pts on 2-11 shooting against Arizona.
5 pts on 1-6 shooting with only 3 assists against Richmond.
3 pts on 0-3 shooting against NC State
8 pts on 2-11 shooting against Georgia Tech (The guy he guarded got 23 pts, 8 rebounds, 6 assists)
8 pts against Miami.

That's Chris Paul's stats last year playing for Wake Forest.

So...performing poorly in a handful of games isn't neccesarily such a horrible thing after all, is it? Especially when you're not the only decent pro prospect on a team.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> I'm talking about actual Connecticut Husky fans not just some Gay pollyanna....


huh? I guess I got confused when you said... _"thats the first time I've heard that"_ in response to Rudy being the said to be the best player on the Huskies team. You then seemed to say that UCONN fans on some chatsite claim otherwise. 

my bad 

STOMP


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## Tince (Jul 11, 2004)

Fork said:


> Speaking of disappearing acts, look at these stats. This guy doesn't show up at ALL.
> 
> 4 pts on 2-11 shooting against Arizona.
> 5 pts on 1-6 shooting with only 3 assists against Richmond.
> ...


 Chris Paul will be a bust, you heard it here first!!!


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> He was predicted as a low lottery pick or out of the lottery altogether. That's almost surely why he went back to school. His sophomore season wasn't all that impressive and he raised his stock tremendously with his 2005-06 season.
> 
> Rudy Gay is going to go as high as Morrison will _now_, despite being younger and having yet to play as a more advanced player.


His sophomore season he put up better numbers than Gay's so how could you say that it wasn't impressive?

and people always beat to death the whole age thing...It isn't like Morrison is going to be a 30 year old rookie...and its not like you wouldn't have taken older rookies like Sabonis, Nocioni and Duncan just because there older than other players...

I find the age thing a lame excuse.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

STOMP said:


> huh? I guess I got confused when you said... _"thats the first time I've heard that"_ in response to Rudy being the said to be the best player on the Huskies team. You then seemed to say that UCONN fans on some chatsite claim otherwise.
> 
> my bad
> 
> STOMP


Yea, the people who follow Rudy Gay's every game and know more than anyone else about UCONN and particularly Gay.


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## sov82 (Nov 5, 2003)

Not sure where you got some of your information but...

Calhoun fully supports Gay in his decision to go to the NBA. I can only think of one situation where a player has "left" UCONN w/o Calhoun's support and that was Bynum last year. Calhoun didn't think Bynum was going to be picked as high as he was. After he was, Calhoun said he didn't think Bynum was ready but congradulated him on being a lottery pick. Calhoun doesn't put a "time table" on anyone. He tells you to leave when you are ready. Whether thats after 2 years or 4, he tells it as it is.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

zagsfan20 said:


> His sophomore season he put up better numbers than Gay's so how could you say that it wasn't impressive?


Because Rudy Gay's numbers weren't impressive either. Rudy Gay isn't being drafted so highly based on his college numbers.

Although, Gay put up his numbers on a team with several other top players and playing in a tougher division. So they are still more impressive than Morrison's soph numbers.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

sov82 said:


> Not sure where you got some of your information but...
> 
> Calhoun fully supports Gay in his decision to go to the NBA. I can only think of one situation where a player has "left" UCONN w/o Calhoun's support and that was Bynum last year. Calhoun didn't think Bynum was going to be picked as high as he was. After he was, Calhoun said he didn't think Bynum was ready but congradulated him on being a lottery pick. Calhoun doesn't put a "time table" on anyone. He tells you to leave when you are ready. Whether thats after 2 years or 4, he tells it as it is.



Yeah...and that is why Calhoun publically called out that Gay wasn't ready to go to the NBA this year...but hey, he is supportive...


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

sov82 said:


> Not sure where you got some of your information but...
> 
> Calhoun fully supports Gay in his decision to go to the NBA. I can only think of one situation where a player has "left" UCONN w/o Calhoun's support and that was Bynum last year. Calhoun didn't think Bynum was going to be picked as high as he was. After he was, Calhoun said he didn't think Bynum was ready but congradulated him on being a lottery pick. Calhoun doesn't put a "time table" on anyone. He tells you to leave when you are ready. Whether thats after 2 years or 4, he tells it as it is.


I remember watching a conference after UCONN lost to Syracuse in the Big East tournament and Calhoun said he thought Gay should stay


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

zagsfan20 said:


> He lead the _nation_ in scoring...and nearly doubled Gay's points per game.


Dude he plays in the same conferance as Portland State, University of Portland, Univiersity of San Fransisco, etc etc....

on top of that on Gonzaga only 3 players average double figures, and their 4th leading scorer averages 6ppg....Compare that to UCONN, who plays in a much more difficult division, wher 5 players average in double digits, and a 6th averages 9ppg.

Now lets factor in the "stats don't tell us enough" which is always trumped out here, if thats the case, then Adam Morrison drops way off. Why? Well he's a great scorer, but what about the other intangibles? He's decent on the ball defender, but man on help D he sometimes looks like he wouldn't even notice a freight train going by 1 foot to the left. 

Hey JJ Reddick scored nearly as well on a better team, how is he any different?


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Schilly said:


> Dude he plays in the same conferance as Portland State, University of Portland, Univiersity of San Fransisco, etc etc....
> 
> on top of that on Gonzaga only 3 players average double figures, and their 4th leading scorer averages 6ppg....Compare that to UCONN, who plays in a much more difficult division, wher 5 players average in double digits, and a 6th averages 9ppg.
> 
> ...


Portland State isn't in their conference.

What does how many players scoring in double figures really have to do with it?...It just means a teams scoring is more spread out and they don't really have a superstar that they can go to like UCON has had in years past.

I've never brought up the stats don't tell it all thing.

Adam Morrison is a superior player to Rudy Gay and its pretty obvious, it will definitely be shown who the GM's and scouts think will be the better player come June 28th....and who the better player really is throughout their careers....

For now, I'm tired of discussing and analyzing things between prospects...We will just wait and see until then.


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## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

I don't follow individual college players closely, but I think there is something in saying that some schools regularly turn out good pros while others do not. I have commented before that Duke, while a very good college program, does not turn out solid pros. So often Duke players underachieved in the NBA (Bobby Hurley, Christian Laettner, Mike Dunleavy to give a few examples.) Then you look at North Carolina and you see a ton of NBA stars. So it is not a stretch to say some colleges do tend to turn out more successful pros than others. It is one factor to keep in mind, while also realizing each case is unique. IMO, if it was a choice between two equally talented and sane players, one from a school that turns out a lot of pros and one from a school whose players tank in the NBA, I'd go for Door #1.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Schilly said:


> Dude he plays in the same conferance as Portland State, University of Portland, Univiersity of San Fransisco, etc etc....


he also averaged more *out* of conference than *in* conference (and the team had a tougher out of conference SOS than Uconn did..by *far*. 223 for Uconn, out of conferecen SOS, vs 19 for Gonzaga.)


> on top of that on Gonzaga only 3 players average double figures, and their 4th leading scorer averages 6ppg....Compare that to UCONN, who plays in a much more difficult division, wher 5 players average in double digits, and a 6th averages 9ppg.
> 
> Now lets factor in the "stats don't tell us enough" which is always trumped out here, if thats the case, then Adam Morrison drops way off. Why? Well he's a great scorer, but what about the other intangibles? He's decent on the ball defender, but man on help D he sometimes looks like he wouldn't even notice a freight train going by 1 foot to the left.
> 
> Hey JJ Reddick scored nearly as well on a better team, how is he any different?


check the % of shots that he took that were 3 pointers, and get back to the board and report what you found. That little stat SCREAMS a huge difference.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

I like Morrison a lot, and b\t the two I would hope POR drafts Adam, b\c I do think he has a lot of other very intriguing qualities about him, that many players don't have...and I am personally more inclined to choose the guy with lesser athletic gifts, but who maximizes them every night to the guy who has superior athletic talent but doesn't maximize it or "bring it" every night...

As the years go by, I am becoming more and more convinced that EFFORT is one of if not THE most critical aspect of a player...Now it doesn't make up for a guy who clearly isn't talented enough to play in the NBA...but it is enough IMO to make up the difference for a slightly lesser talented player, particulary athletically...

Morrison fits this category IMO...and that is why I would primarily choose him over Gay...Having said that, if POR selected Gay over Morrison, while I would be dissapointed I would certainly understand their reason, and hope that Gay's uneven performances and apparent lethargy during games at times, would not follow him to the NBA....

They are both good players IMO

Morrison takes unfair criticism over his lack of athleticism and defense
and Gay takes unfair criticism over his uneven effort and tendency to float in games...

IMO they are among the best three players in this draft, with the enigmatic Bargnani being the 3rd...


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## riehldeal (May 11, 2003)

people are citing the number of quality players on UCONN with Gay as a reason why he is better than he showed

well at the same time i would argue that the absence of those same players on Morrison's team is why he is every bit as good as advertised.....the dude is the ABSOLUTE FOCUS of the opponent's defense and he got the job done at a nation leading clip....impressive, you bet

i have not read all the posts in this thread but i am sure this has been brought up....but the thing that puts Morri over the top for me is the number of intangibles he naturally possesses

he is also a great passer (not always shown in GU due to nobody he can trust to pass to besides JP)...


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## sov82 (Nov 5, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> I remember watching a conference after UCONN lost to Syracuse in the Big East tournament and Calhoun said he thought Gay should stay


"This is the time for a tremendously talented guy to take advantage of a tremendous opportunity," Calhoun said. "I see nothing but greatness ahead for him. There's no question that Rudy will fulfill the promise that those people who draft him have in him."

"Gay's future appears bright. UConn coach Jim Calhoun said he expects Gay to be taken between No. 3 and No. 5 in the upcoming draft, and that it would be hard to pass that up.

"If he was going to be drafted 20, 25 or something of that nature," Calhoun said, "he and I, and mom and dad might have had a different discussion. But this is a different kind of opportunity."


Calhoun talks to his players all the time during the season about what the "NBA guys are saying". When his players aren't playing as well as he would like, he says things that are meant to motivate them. Calhoun does his job during the season doing the best he can to motivate the kids and after the season he tells them to leave if they are projected in the first half of the draft.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

sov82 said:


> "This is the time for a tremendously talented guy to take advantage of a tremendous opportunity," Calhoun said. "I see nothing but greatness ahead for him. There's no question that Rudy will fulfill the promise that those people who draft him have in him."
> 
> "Gay's future appears bright. UConn coach Jim Calhoun said he expects Gay to be taken between No. 3 and No. 5 in the upcoming draft, and that it would be hard to pass that up.
> 
> ...



Thats not the conference I was talking about...The one I remember was him criticizing the NBA because it sucks up players like Gay that should stick around and complete their game...


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

sov82 said:


> "This is the time for a tremendously talented guy to take advantage of a tremendous opportunity," Calhoun said. "I see nothing but greatness ahead for him. There's no question that Rudy will fulfill the promise that those people who draft him have in him."


Ignore the facts. Drink the Kool-Aide!

Ed O.


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