# Marbury+Crawford or Crawford+Vince?



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

This is inspired by Penny's critique of the Team USA games, but I thought it worthy of it's own thread.

Haven't seen Team USA play yet, but I must say, having originally been against it, I've changed my mind regarding Marbury's participation in these games. It's clear he needs a lot of work in his gamesmanship, and what better way to get it than under Brown. Fortunately Marbury is still young enough that maybe when he's thirtysomething he'll have some wisdom, but he's not there yet. 

When he doesn't know what to do he dribbles, then chucks or dishes to someone else with little time for them to do anything but chuck or choke. He doesn't control tempo well and doesn't really move all that well with or without the ball. He is a good passer, a good penetrator, and sometimes a potent shooter (ie, streaky) but he's not a great floor general.

Crawford is said by some to be more of a PG than a SG. That said, he's also not a great decision maker. Assuming his trade should come to pass it will be interesting to see how he and Marbury relate in the backcourt. Neither is a spot up jumpshooter, they both need to have the ball in their hands to be productive. That may even be more true for Jamal than Marbury. It's possible when on the floor together that Marbury will play the 2 more than Crawford.

Which brings me to a subject that may be sacreligeous to some here, and the Toronto Vince worshipers. If we get Crawford should we trade Marbury for Vince Carter? Let me first say that I like Marbury better. I think he's healthier, tougher, just as skilled, and more NY than Vince. I also think it would be devastating to trade him now. Devastating to Marbury, to NY fans, and to Isiah's reputation. Isiah would lose credibility with players interested in signing here. And it's just schmucky to make a hometown hero your new franchise player and then trade him 6 months later for what some consider to be eye candy. However, I do think that Crawford/Vince/ TT makes a functionally more effective trio than Marbury/Crawford/TT.

Above I alluded to some of the possible issues between Crawford and Marbury. My feeling is that Vince at the 2 is a better spot up shooter than either Marbury or Crawford. And when he wants to be he's a far better penetrator and finisher than both of them. Crawford, in spite of his size and handle, really doesn't take it to the hole and doesn't go to the line, much to the consternation of his coaches and fans.

Crawford may actually have a better handle than Marbury. If we'd trade marbury for Vince, I envision Crawford working the perimeter and having Vince on the arch and TT on the high blocks. Vince is first option, Crawford's first look is to him. If Vince has an open look he can pop, or he can penetrate. If he puts the ball on the floor and he's got a clear path he takes it in, but if he needs to dish off he's got TT on the blocks for a midrange pop, or TT is slashing to the hoop from the foul line, or he kicks out again to Crawford.

With Crawford and Marbury together I just don't know who handles, who's got the better shot, who's the better decision maker. They are too similar in many of those ways. I also don't know who the first option is, or who the go-to guy is. They'd be dynamic but perhaps illogical and helter skelter. I see confusion. Crawford dribbles, then kicks to Marbury who dribbkles. If Marbury kicks back out to Crawford he thinks and dribbels again and the process repeats itself ad nauseum until one pops a 25 footer with 1 sec on the clock. Yes Marbury is a good penetrator, but that's against PGs, not taller SGs. And Crawford barely penetrates at all, nor is he a lethal spot up shooter.

Most critics don't consider Marbury a good "running" point guard. He's best in a half-court pick and roll, or penetrate and dish offense, yet Isiah continues to amass players with more athleticism than shooting skills. Yes our current guys can shoot, but none are the pure shooters Marbury feeds off of. At this point KT might be the closest to that, yet many suspect he's the next player scheduled for delivery elsewhere. So how is Marbury being supported here? Is another dribble and shoot player like Crawford what he needs?

Conversely, if any of you think the best option would be to play Crawford at PG and Marbury at the SG, why not just use F-Will at the point and use our expiring assets elsewhere? Frank might turn out to be the best pure PG of the three, he'd be a lot cheaper, and he's easily the best defender.

So again, do I think IT should actually trade Marbury for VC? No, ethically I couldn't do it and I just don't feel the love for Vince. Do I think we'd be a better team if he did? Probably so.


----------



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

Just say no to Vince. I like Vince, but hes an injury waiting to happen. then we look like dumbasses for trading him for stephon. We look like dumbasses even if we do get him without getting injured. Crawford should never start unless someones injured. Crawford to me is a career sixth man. a Q Rich type of guy.

and Marburys better then Vince anyway. Vince fell off. Knock him down once hes shooting jumpers all day. Vince is not as good a ball handler as kobe and tmac, and his left hand is ATROCIOUS! Not to mention that hes a bad defender, even when he tries. i dont give a damn if he averaged a steal and block, thats not defense, thats flashy defense. the offense blows by this guy so bad. and he is terrible at rotating to other players if his teamate gets beat off the dribble.

Marbury sucks at making his teammates better. But hes better then 90 percent of the point guards in the league. Imagine that. So do this, surround him with jumpshooters. Marbury likes to penetrate and dish, or just shoot. he dominates the ball, so instead of having other players who need the ball in their hands to succeed, get chuckers. Allan, Tim, And kurt fit this good enough. Good. all we need now is a star forward..........ummmmmmm okay were screwed. one star wont cut it on a team with lenny father time wilkins coaching. so were screwed either way.

Id rather trade Marbury for Elton Brand or someone like that, and possibly steal someone else from them........they are the clippers you know. but we wont get past the first round either way. its a lost cause.

REBUILD!


----------



## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> Just say no to Vince. I like Vince


Hmmmm.. doesn't sound like you like him too much from your post.

Either way, Toronto wouldn't trade Vince for Marbury anyways. My opinion is that Vince has a bigger impact than Marbury does. You can knock on him about being injured all you want, but he actually played more games than most of the other top wings in the league and he makes everyone around him much better.

Vince does take lots of jumpers, but guys like Tmac, Pierce all take way more 3s than he does. His defense is much better now as well.

if you want a good analysis.. take a look at this:

http://www.uncg.edu/bae/people/rosenbaum/NBA/winval2.htm


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Holy **** that post is long and I need go running.


However quick response. Hell no. Steph might have flaws but he loves to ball. He wants to play.

Vince want's to play video games and relax.


Steph wants to come back from injuries and recoup.


Vince wants to take his time and avoid contact/and surgeries.


Steph wants to be a star.


Vince wants to go home to his playstation.



Points to conisder when thinking about giving up anything good for VC.


----------



## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Just say no to Vince. Sincerely.


----------



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*makes no sense right?*

I'd welcome Vince on the Knicks only if he got fitted with bionic legs.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Oak your post made me want to puke and not cause it was a bad post or i didnt agree..It was a nasty dose of reality,but KBF did say one thing that we can not underestimate.Stabury has heart,and i really think he wants to be a winner.I think it bugs him knowing that he is by far the second best point guard in the Metro area.

There was a stretch when marbury passed first and dribbled less.
I think we are all delusional if we think H20 is gonna be playing much.He has degenerative cartlidge in both knees which is why he has not had surgery.I can not imagine him playing much more than 15 minutes per...

I think this team is stacked offensively...

However,I think our D will bite the big one


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> However,I think our D will bite the big one


We really need a defensive guru as an assistant coach, like Dick Harter (careful how you say that in public) with Riley.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

you want us to do what with riley????:laugh:


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Easy or that homophobe raptor fan will come back. White hood and all.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Easy or that homophobe raptor fan will come back. White hood and all.


LMFAO....I can not believe i am posting this,but you may be my favorite poster..:yes: 

And its not necessarily for you basketball content


----------



## 22ryno (Mar 17, 2003)

Carter is a #2 option. That is his mentality and if you don't have a number 1 guy who really wants to be star you will never win with Carter. Although he has to ability of say a Kobe Bryant he doesn't have the drive to be the best. Marbury does have that heart and this year with more talent around him he will prove that to everyone. So my answer is Marbury + Crawford. ps You don't have to worry about Marbury getting injured(knock on wood).


----------



## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Give us Marbury and K.Thomas and we then ship Starbury for Allen.

VC's defence sucks he is like these NFL WR's [Randy Moss, Plexico Burresss, Terrell Owens, they play to full potential when they want to rest of the time they are lazy a$$es]

Aqquire VC it will be Ishiah's funueral asa GM shortly after.:mrt:
:twocents:


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Aqquire VC it will be Ishiah's funueral asa GM shortly after.


wow,thats some strong words coming from a raptors fan


----------



## Dr. J (Jul 12, 2002)

Doesn't anyone watch the games, or even now during the Olympics? Marbury is an awful defensive player. He is short, so he can be taken down low. You can't do anything about that. But he is a quick player and he obviously doesn't work hard at D. He is continually burned on the pick and roll, he won;t fight through it. 

Also, for the poster who say Marbury is young, that is true only in the sense that he is not old. Marbury is not young, he is 27 and I don't see him getting better.

If the Knicks could trade him for Carter, it would be a great deal.


----------



## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> wow,thats some strong words coming from a raptors fan


I dont like VC anymore this pasy year has been a soap opera with his work ethic, poor leadership.
Isiah as a GM when he wants someone badly will give in.
U guys want him propose a good offer
Marbury
Nazr

for Carter+Filler

that could give us a chance to get Pierce Marbury for him swap

I think Seattle is the team the Raps should deal with to unload VC for Ray Allen.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Vince's lack of leadership is a good issue, because it brings up this entire squad's lack of leadership.

Will Steph become the leader? It would be nice but there is nothing in his history to have us assume he will. Houston? I think we've been there, done that. JC? Nothing in his history to suggest. Kurt? Maybe if he sticks around, Sweets, maybe, but not before he starts. Nazr? Not if we get Damp and he's re-reduced to a role player. Penny? Sure if he were the Penny of old, but as the 8th man in the rotation in what is likely to be his last year here?

I dunno. Not sure how many teams actually do have strong emotional leaders. What usually suffices in their absence are great work-ethic role models, like Patrick, Starks and Oak. Steph is partially that, with his 40 mins per game, unless some see those as selfish stat padding minutes. And his lack of defensive effort doesn't show up great on what is basically a soft team. Kurt used to be our hardworker, but that fell apart last year with the pinky... and after the contract extension. Still, he and JYD are all we've got on D.

It's going to be a very interesting season. Our bench is stocked, Lenny has a good 10-12 guys he can play, or leave to fester and gripe. I think Isiah may need to move a vet for some speculative youth, just to avoid tension. We already saw it with Shandon and his coaches decision, and Othella demanding out. The situation hasn't been made any better yet. At least one bad or redundant contract has to be dropped before more can be brought on. Moochie, Shandon, Kurt or JYD, Penny. None of those guys are so good, but only Moochie deserves the IR. The rest will suffer.

Another pointless ramble brought to you by me.


----------

