# In BC we trust? Not any****ingmore



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

http://www.charlotte.com/140/story/688312.html


:azdaja::azdaja::azdaja::azdaja::azdaja::azdaja::azdaja::azdaja:


Are you kidding me!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!


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## chocolove (Apr 4, 2006)

dang, that sucks. G-Wallace woulda helped immensely


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## george (Aug 8, 2003)

**** and we would've kept our pick.


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## undefined_playa (Oct 23, 2005)

wow...Gerald Wallace is one of my favorite players in the league. i can't believe i'm saying this but BC blows


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

Wallace injury history worse than TJ I like the oneal deal better filling the hole down low better than getting a wing it should be obvious after this season and the playoffs, the raps issues down low stood out like a sore thumb


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## Onions Baby (Mar 12, 2007)

Eh, I'd rather have JO. 17th pick isn't that big of a deal as it most likely will just be a role player at best, easy hole to fill.

Jermaine O'Neal is as healthy as Gerald Wallace is..

Wallace doesn't fit our offense to well.. sure he can slash but he in no way is a good shooter, nor is he close to it. I prefer JO to this.


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## King Bosh (Jan 23, 2008)

Jermaine O'neal is a better fit for our team. Our biggest issue last season was obviously defense and rebounding. Acquiring O'neal changes all that with only one player. Yes Wallace can score and get some steals, but O'neal will be a better fit for our organization. I still beleive in BC.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

also like to add that Wallace makes 

$8,287,500

$9,075,000

$9,862,500

$10,650,000

$11,437,500

over the next 5 years , terrible don't wanna be stuck with that and a contract like that takes us right out of the 2010 sweepstakes out of all the FA years thats the year you DON'T want to miss


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

you guys have got to be kidding me...

JO and his contract is worth more than Crash+Rasho+Ford+17 any day of the week. Stop being enamored by stats or mediocre depth and realize that quality talent and flexibilty wins in this league.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

Wallace is a murderer on the court. wish he was here. i don't see why we couldnt have pulled the deal & recieved the 20th.. (we were probably asking for the 9th). maybe even got that 2nd & kept the 17th.

G.Wallace still one of my favourite player, still got my favourite player in the draft going to charlotte (Ajinca) so guess i'll be keeping an eye on them boys.


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## george (Aug 8, 2003)

Hopefully BC brings in guys like Devon Jefferson, Richard Roby, Jamont Gordon, and Will Daniels to work out. Some decent guys who didn't get drafted.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

trick said:


> you guys have got to be kidding me...
> 
> JO and his contract is worth more than Crash+Rasho+Ford+17 any day of the week. Stop being enamored by stats or mediocre depth and realize that quality talent and flexibilty wins in this league.


Right on!


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Would've been happy with either trade.


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## MrkLrn13 (Mar 1, 2006)

I like the Gerald Wallace trade a bit more. It would've allowed us to have more playing time for Bargs.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

MrkLrn13 said:


> I like the Gerald Wallace trade a bit more. It would've allowed us to have more playing time for Bargs.


He's had enough "unearned" playing time already. It's time he goes to the bench and try for real.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

I also would of liked either but Gerald wouldn't have helped address our biggest weakness rebounding & man to man D in the post.
Keeping Rasho & starting Bargs would of been praying that Andrea adapt quickly and play like a regular C does box out, rebound and score a bit.
Adding O"Neal adreses interior D & man to man D.
Wallace addresses perimeter D & adds a true slasher.


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## Balzac (Jun 29, 2006)

Also, we don't really know the exact details of what the offer was. I love G. Wallace as well, don't get me wrong. Either deal would've been a good trade for us.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Jose
AP
G Wall
Bosh
Rasho

Bench:
Kapono
Bargnani
Hibbert
Moon
Ukic
Humphries


Plus financial Flexibility


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Dee-Zy said:


> Jose
> AP
> G Wall
> Bosh
> ...


lol, mediocre depth...i like it. [/sarcasm]

Gerald Wallace's contract is atrocious for a man of his skillset. 5 more years with his continuous injury riddled seasons for a guy who puts up good stats but has not brought a team he has played for in the post season. I mean, talent-wise they should be able to beat out atlanta for that last playoff seed but nevertheless continue year after year to draft around the 8-10 range.

You would think this season would totally amplify the idea that quality talent over mediocre depth would win 9 times out of 10 (but 1 time being the exception, as in the case all general rules have exceptions  ). Toronto and it's mediocre depth could hardly do any damage in the post season where as you have Boston who won the championship based on their 3-star power and making smart moves to fill out the roster. 

but hey, Gerald Wallace does bring some flashy moves to the ACC...get 'er done BC... :nonono:


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## A_wildstabatanything (Jun 18, 2003)

Rebounding wasn't the team's biggest weakness last year. I'd actually put it right behind the team's dire need for a goto player on the wing. As a group Toronto's wings were dead last in every single category except for two (shooting percentages + rebounding) and their perimeter D was terrible all year long.

Heading into next season it looks like Parker, Graham, Moon, Kapono, and & a minimum contract will makeup the 2 & 3 positions as Delfino appears to be moving on. Unless Colangelo can find a way to upgrade those positions with very few assets at his disposal they're not going to make the playoffs.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

A_wildstabatanything said:


> Rebounding wasn't the team's biggest weakness last year. I'd actually put it right behind the team's dire need for a goto player on the wing. As a group Toronto's wings were dead last in every single category except for two (shooting percentages + rebounding) and their perimeter D was terrible all year long.
> 
> Heading into next season it looks like Parker, Graham, Moon, Kapono, and & a minimum contract will makeup the 2 & 3 positions as Delfino appears to be moving on. Unless Colangelo can find a way to upgrade those positions with very few assets at his disposal they're not going to make the playoffs.


Not making playoffs despite adding Jermaine O'Neal to a core of players who have made the playoffs the previous 2 years? ... You crazy

I do agree we have very mediocre choices on the wing. I really liked what Jason Kapono brought in the playoffs though, hopefully that was a sign of things to come.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

A_wildstabatanything said:


> Rebounding wasn't the team's biggest weakness last year. I'd actually put it right behind the team's dire need for a goto player on the wing. As a group Toronto's wings were dead last in every single category except for two (shooting percentages + rebounding) and their perimeter D was terrible all year long.
> 
> Heading into next season it looks like Parker, Graham, Moon, Kapono, and & a minimum contract will makeup the 2 & 3 positions as Delfino appears to be moving on. Unless Colangelo can find a way to upgrade those positions with very few assets at his disposal they're not going to make the playoffs.


No offense but how many Raptor games did you watch lat year?


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

I don't believe that for one second. Crash is on a whole different talent level.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Ruff Draft said:


> I don't believe that for one second. Crash is on a whole different talent level.


as in Ford is on an upper level?


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

i would have liked gerald wallace over o'neal if he was indeed available, but i still think jermaine is a great addition. gerald wallace gives us that athletic defensive wing player who knows how to finish on the break, and for the cheap price of just tj injury prone ford.

people need to stop looking at o;neal's flaws though and see what he brings to the table. yeah, he's not durable, but whenever he plays, he's one of the best defensive players in the league. he does take a lot of jumpers, but when he does get the ball down low, if you think he's not going to destroy you, think again. jermaine has quickly become the most underrated bigman in the league. i think jermaine can resurrect his career here, much like baron davis did in golden state and vince carter when he first got to NJ.


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## DWADE4 (Aug 18, 2006)

Dee-Zy said:


> http://www.charlotte.com/140/story/688312.html
> 
> 
> :azdaja::azdaja::azdaja::azdaja::azdaja::azdaja::azdaja::azdaja:
> ...


I've been posting about Gerald Wallace since last season. That the Raptors should go and try to get a trade for this guy, but MANY of posters here on this board were replying by saying "oh we don't need him", "his salary is too high or long", "he wouldn't help this team" etc, but now since you heard we could've had him some like to change their minds.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

I always was for Crash in TO but never thought it was possible.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

oh wow...gerald wallace is like some kind god-like entity around here.

:uhoh:


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## CrookedJ (May 8, 2003)

The way I see it, JO is a much better pickup for this team. In Moon we have a poor man's Wallace, at a much better price. He is not a creator offensively, and he cannot defend C's. 

Injury wise they are a wash - and with Wallace's contract running for so long that becomes a major hindrance. If JO gets banged up again, we at least have the expiring next year. 

I'd rather have a true big man to play beside Bosh. We can get a lot of the things that Wallace brings from Moon.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

well said. Wallace injuries are a direct product of how hard he plays, i can see G.dub playing 70+ games nextseason under larry brown & MJ.

still my favourite player in the league next to Josh Howard.


i remember the season before last when Wallace was a FA, we were very interested but he was out of our price range. Yeah his contract is heavy, but he was signed the same season as Rashard Lewis was to a much greater contract. IMO i'd take gerald over Lewis any day.

either trade i'll be happy with. we needed a guy like Jermaine

& bottom line is, we also need a guy like Gerald Wallace to complete our lineup & become a championship contender. he;s that slasher/perimeter defender/get to the line player player we're missing


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## a_i_4_life (Dec 24, 2004)

southeasy said:


> well said. Wallace injuries are a direct product of how hard he plays, i can see G.dub playing 70+ games nextseason under larry brown & MJ.
> 
> still my favourite player in the league next to Josh Howard.
> 
> ...


i'd trade for Wallace right now, Bargnani and next years 1st round pick, i don't know if the salaries match though


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

If Bargnani was truly for real. I mean guaranteed all-star. Raps could conceivably have done the JO trade and then shipped out Bosh, yes Bosh, to DEN for Carmelo.

All-stars at the SF, PF, and C positions with Calderon at the PG. Just need a defensive wing at the other spot.

I think DEN would have done that trade in a heartbeat.

That would have been exciting. Unfortunately Bargs is a huge question mark right now.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

or we could trade Bargnani+ for Gerald Wallace & filler while concievably getting an all-star caliber small forward in the East that we don't really have the need for shooting jumpshots. our team would consist of 2 defensive game changers we we;re missing that have a tendency to put their body on the line, maybe too often.


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

straight up i dont whats the infatuation around a player like Gerald Wallace..
good player and all but i will never label him a "star" 
a good defensive player.. can give you a a couple of highlight plays each night..
but his he doesnt have the takeover ability like great wings do.. he can make a defensive play for you, but would you want him to take a game winning shot? Moon practically does the same thing at a cheaper price like crooked mention..


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

If Wallace had a 2 year deal like JO's then I do it. But since hes tied up for 5 years, Im happy we passed. Look, we have JO for the next two years with Calderon and Kapono likely to be the 3rd and 4th main cogs on this team. We see how far that core can take us and if it doesnt work out, then we tweak again in 2010 when JO and 22 million comes off the books and a great FA class comes into the fold. 

Not only that, but Im no more confident in Wallace's ability to take us to the next level that JO. Again, if JO's healthy, its a steal and we are major players in the conference, if not we reload in 2010.


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## DWADE4 (Aug 18, 2006)

If this does not work out, then even in 2010 we will need a player like JO who can score down low/rebound/interior D and be a consistent 2nd scorer behind Bosh, AND a 3rd quality player at the 3 who can slash to the basket and help out on the perimeter D.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

> If this does not work out, then even in 2010 we will need a player like JO who can score down low/rebound/interior D and be a consistent 2nd scorer behind Bosh, AND a 3rd quality player at the 3 who can slash to the basket and help out on the perimeter D.


This is exactly the point that everyone seems to miss. Its not like we will still have our star PF and a quality C, with money to fill out the wings. We will need everything except PG and PF. And all the guys that helped our big turnaround: Parker, Garbo, Rasho, even Ford all gone. And no young picks being groomed right now either.

BC is keeping the flexibility to re-tool but I don't see a championship plan in place. Just keep us competitive enough to be in the playoffs. Maybe BC just hopes to get lucky with the right FA popping up like Gasol for the Lakers at the right time to make a run.

We need to add another quality player NOW in order to make some noise. But it seems that will not be happening based on what Doug Smith and others write.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

I just don't understand the direction BC is heading towards. Are we trying to win it all now? Build for the future? His plan is confusing unless he has more moves lined up. 

The move for JO indicates we want to win now, as I see it we gave up to young assets (TJ and Draft Pick) for an old one. What I would've also then expected is to trade someone like Bargs for lets say RJ. We could've given NJ Bargs, Parker, Garbo (I don't know why he was bought out, an expiring contract is an asset). 

I'm not saying NJ would accept that offer, but its worth a shot. Again I have no idea what BC's direction is for this team.

If we make those trades we have lineup of:

PG: Calderon
SG: Delfino
SF: Jefferson
PF: Bosh
C: O'neal


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

maybe BC is still high on Bargs.. im definately still am.
BC thinks Barg > RJ.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

these current set of moves probably has BC going into a different direction than what he had sought from the beginning. 

TJ Ford's departure + Bargs regression this past season proves his initial plan of building around Ford/Bosh/Bargs was a total wash, so move onto other ventures and see what transpires from there. Some of it was just bad luck (Garbo's injury) and some of it just blew up in his face (the PG controversy/no idea what Calderon would bring to the table). All this is probably leading up to the stacked FA class of 2010 where the 'real' plan will kick in place, but until then hold the fort and continue building a competitive ball club to keep the fans (and media) happy. Not surprising enough that BC has stopped stockpiling young assets and is in a mini "win-now" attitude.

In any case I'm happy for the time being. If I'm right, BC knows that the team was headed on a downward spiral hard and fast and needed to right the ship into the right direction. Which adds on to the fact that BC knows when he's done wrong and doesn't wait around to do something about it.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

BC had pretty big cap space when he came in, along with the number 1 overall pick. No GM could ask for more. He even had way more time to ease into the job than any GM I can remember. He was in a position to set the franchise up for many years.

All he could manage were some older Euro vets who may or may not have panned out if you look at recent history. They did, and the Eastern conference imploded, thus BC looked like a genius. 

But today we now have a team with only a two year window to try and build an entirely new offensive and defensive identity. And he has blown up almost every move he made in his first season. BC's backcourt is now an all Babcock PG platoon.

But hey, the East is very weak. Even but weak. It would not be out of the question for the Raps to make the conference finals if Sam can figure out how to use two all-star bigs together. We could jump right ahead of WAS and ORL as contenders in the East.

Or we could miss the playoffs altogether if MIA and CHI turn things around. CHI was supposed to be a title contender last year and just drafted the #1 pick.

No point really guessing until after the FA season is done but you have to think that:

BOS, DET, ORL, CLE, and WAS are all locks for playoff spots unless WAS can't resign its guys.

CHI could return to form. That would make six spots.

Leaves TOR fighting with PHI, ATL, for the last 2 spots. Long athletic teams that give the Raps fits.

Maybe MIL has a nice year. IND has some chance if the rooks, both NBA ready in Rush and Hibbert, can help right away. And who knows what D'Antoni can do with a bunch of talented misfits in NY. If MIA gets Diop they could be reloaded very fast.

Only NJ and CHA seem to have little to no hope in my mind right now.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

we've already got Moon starting at the 3; it's not like Crash is a hugely different kind of player. i don't even know which has the better jumpshot. 

listen, acquiring JO changes the identity of this team for the better in a way that a wing like Wallace or Maggette never could.

no, we might not win a championship or even win our division but we can surely take a run at it. we can make a run for it and our future isn't ****ed. not many teams can say that. we need to develop/sign talent on the cheap, like the Spurs and Pistons have but you win games with your 8 man rotation and ours can play with anyone on both ends.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

trick said:


> these current set of moves probably has BC going into a different direction than what he had sought from the beginning.
> 
> TJ Ford's departure + Bargs regression this past season proves his initial plan of building around Ford/Bosh/Bargs was a total wash, so move onto other ventures and see what transpires from there. Some of it was just bad luck (Garbo's injury) and some of it just blew up in his face (the PG controversy/no idea what Calderon would bring to the table). All this is probably leading up to the stacked FA class of 2010 where the 'real' plan will kick in place, but until then hold the fort and continue building a competitive ball club to keep the fans (and media) happy. Not surprising enough that BC has stopped stockpiling young assets and is in a mini "win-now" attitude.
> 
> In any case I'm happy for the time being. If I'm right, BC knows that the team was headed on a downward spiral hard and fast and needed to right the ship into the right direction. Which adds on to the fact that BC knows when he's done wrong and doesn't wait around to do something about it.


Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the deal. I would rather go all out and try to win now, like the Celts. That's why I would deal Bargs for someone who can help us win now. 

As for 2010, it seems every team in the league is clearing cap room for 2010, as a result I don't see quality free agents flocking to TO. In fact teams are clearing room to make a run at Bosh, I would just be happy in 2010 if we can keep Bosh in a Raptors jersey. 

I really don't see us attracting any stars to TO. The last time we had cap room, we got Parker, Garbo, Baston?


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

lucky777s said:


> BC had pretty big cap space when he came in, along with the number 1 overall pick. No GM could ask for more. He even had way more time to ease into the job than any GM I can remember. He was in a position to set the franchise up for many years.


BC didn't have significant cap room. didn't he pretty much have to split the mle between Garbo and AP (2 impact players for us let's not forget)?


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

No, he had cap room. Some of it was used to absorb Rasho's deal I believe with Bonner and EWill going out? Another move first tried by Babcock but Spurs were not ready to give up on their big C's just yet, plus he used the pieces Babs assembled to do it.

I think we had something like 12 mill to 15 mill in space that summer as I recall. 4 mill for Parker, 4 mill for Garbo, and maybe 4-5 mill for Rasho trade used it up. Would we have been better off getting a stud wing for 12+ mill and using the MLE in following years to get the other 2-3 pieces we need? Plus drafting correctly.


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## A_wildstabatanything (Jun 18, 2003)

A_wildstabatanything said:


> Rebounding wasn't the team's biggest weakness last year. I'd actually put it right behind the team's dire need for a goto player on the wing. As a group Toronto's wings were dead last in every single category except for two (shooting percentages + rebounding) and their perimeter D was terrible all year long.
> 
> Heading into next season it looks like Parker, Graham, Moon, Kapono, and a minimum contract will makeup the 2 & 3 positions as Delfino appears to be moving on. Unless Colangelo can find a way to upgrade those positions with very few assets at his disposal they're not going to make the playoffs.





Porn_Player said:


> Not making playoffs despite adding Jermaine O'Neal to a core of players who have made the playoffs the previous 2 years? ... You crazy





Mr_B said:


> No offense but how many Raptor games did you watch lat year?



:wave:


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Nice job A_wildstabatanything .

I loved those two replies to your post.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

I always thought that Marion was a perfect fit for this team. Gives athleticism on the wing, can shoot the three, defend and rebound the ball. The problem is that Marion hasn't been the same in Miami so if Raps are getting the MIA Marion, they are ****ed. If they get the PHX Marion and Gnani continues to put up his starting stats, Raps might actually have the biggest turn around in the League if everybody is healthy.

I just think that BC pulled down his pants, turned around and bent over. Giving up Moon is not so bad because he is redundant with Marion here but giving up a first round AND take in Banks' contract?

are you ****ing kidding me??????? I am glad I gave up on the raps.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Dee-Zy said:


> Jose
> AP
> G Wall
> Bosh
> ...



Hah, Raps should of kept Hibbert.

I ****ing told you so. 4 ****ing years ago.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

We didn't even draft Hibbert you ignorant slut. Indiana told us to pick him as part of the trade. Colangelo probably would've taken Ajinca.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Just wait until our Lithuanian Shaq gets here.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Don't call the slut a slut speedythief or I'll have to mod you.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

This trade ended up being one of the worst deals in franchise history but I don't necessarily think BC is a fool for this one. At the time, it made a lot of sense and could've been great.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

It's too hard living in the Raptors' present, so complaining about the past is the only option.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

The idea behind the trade was akin to the Bender-for-Davis deal that worked out perfectly for us. You can't always have that kind of luck.


BTW, Bender made about $31-million in the NBA. Good to be a 7-footer.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

seifer0406 said:


> Just wait until our Lithuanian Shaq gets here.


Eh, all he really needs to do is rebound and play defense and it'll be huge for Toronto.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

anyone know what Val's current weigh is and what he by the team is expected to weigh entering Toronto. Listed as 6"11 240, I think if he can come in the summer around 260 its a good start. I would love if Mags returns for another year if not then keep Gray and ur C PT is Amir 25 Gray/Mags 10 Val 13.
What we need the most is a shutdown defender or a SF that can grab boards pitch in a bit offensively but is there more so for D, I would love if we can get Ak 47 for the MLE.


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