# Optimistic Knick-Fans



## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

Being optimistic about your Favorite or HomeTeam each season is good. But betting your money on a consistent losing team is DUM.

*Those who want David Lee traded from this Knick Team seem very confident in the new coach D'Antoni making winning players of a frontline rotation of players C-Jerome James, C-Curry, PF-Zach, and so-call PF-Jefferies & PF-Gallinari, which is a "JOKE" to me know matter how long I look at it. But I'm not going to knock the next member optimiscism.* 

The Knicks picking players like OJ Mayo, Westbrook, Bayless, and Gordon in the draft would've meant that they were getting better decision making combo-guards then Jamal Crawford whom rookie Ben Gordon put to shame replacing him in the Bulls rotation. Getting rid of Crawful meaningless talent would've been a start at rebuilding. 

*The big rumor of trading the Knicks best rebounder, hustler, and chemistry player David Lee makes no sense at all, especially when the Knicks drafted a SF with their 6th pick.* 

The Knicks big trading rumors this offseason after they drafted a SF are supposed to be on trading SF-Q.Richardson, SF-Jared Jefferies, SF-Malik Rose, SF-Balkman, or SF-Chandler. 
*Does'nt that make more sense?* 

The Knicks second best rebounder Zach Randolph have to average 35 mpg to average 10 rebounds per game. And Zach overall talent is worth $14 million a year, when you compare that to David Lee overall talent (at making his teammates talents better) how much money should David Lee ask for if he have to be on a roster with Zach, Curry, James, and Jefferies? 

Being a long time Knick-Fan from the 1970's that does make friendly bets on the Knick game, rather than just be a fan (put your money where your mouth is), one become very skeptical about the Knicks after the tours of Layden, Isiah, and Walsh draft night. It is enough reason to be undecisive about betting one cent (Penny) on the Knicks winning a game. 

The Knicks could still be your optimistic team but when it comes to making a friendly bet on a NBA team with family, friends or in your neighborhood Bar the Knicks are not the one to bet on (Most Knick Fans would make a bet on the Lakers vs Celtics game rather than bet on the Knicks vs Nets game on a Sunday afternoon). 
*Just some friendly advice...*


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*First....*

I don't believe anyone WANTS Lee traded. I have said MANY times that I think he would be very good in an uptempo game. If he can guard 3s, I think he should stay. If not, there just won't be any room for his coming contract IF DG turns out to be good. Offensively, the two players could co-exist very nicely. Defense is the issue. What I find odd is your automatic revulsion for Gallinari before you have even seen him play. This young man has heart, has skills, and has brains. He isn't the athlete Lee is, but he has many of the same qualities with a higher upside. Will he be real good? I don't know but it isn't his fault if Lee gets traded. This team is NOT going to be a good team this year. I didn't expect them to be. We are in rebuilding mode and it is going to take a couple of years. Offensively, Gallinari is EXACTLY the kind of player you said you like. He's the kind of player that can co-exist with anyone and help make them better. If he was a great rebounder, he'd be so much better than David Lee it isn't funny. I want Lee but I cannot fathom paying him 10m + per year. That is much to high for a puzzle piece. That being said, is it possible all this trade talk with Lee is a ploy to get him to sign for less? Just curious Kiyaman, what do you think he should be paid?


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

I think we should form a "David Lee-Knicker Bocker for Life" club! No one wants to see him gone, rather I want to trade Jeffries, Richardson, Marbury, Randolph, and James if possible. Honestly, the Knicks are better with out them (maybe not Richardson, but his injuries worry me). 

Honestly, Jeffries is not "versatile" at all as Isiah claimed, after having watched him, one can easily see what poor offensive awareness he has. As for Marbury, as consistent of a producer he is, his ego's over-inflated by his mediocrity and his personal agenda blinds himself from seeing what he really is. Randolph's, just a lazy-chucker, who while may look good on the stat sheet like Marbury, is in it for his own personal agenda as well. And... let's not even get started with James, overall, we're just a team blinded by greed, personal agenda, and selfishness. 

I don't believe it will be any better with D'Antoni on the team, he won't be able to make our players see. I actually had higher hopes when the rumors were circulating about Mark Jackson being the coach, but right now I just feel like the Knicks are in a never-ending fiasco of doom. Every year I pray and hope that things will get better, to be honest, it's tiring to be a Knick fan. It's been like 7-8 years since the last time we were good, how much longer can I wait? Let's hope this season is not another dismal season, frankly, I wouldn't get my hopes up.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

LOL, look on the bright side Gotham. If we're absolutely terrible then we'll have something to look forward to next time this year, LOL. Maybe this time around we could definately land a franchise player.


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

TwinkieFoot said:


> LOL, look on the bright side Gotham. If we're absolutely terrible then we'll have something to look forward to next time this year, LOL. Maybe this time around we could definately land a franchise player.


DAMMIT, how many, better-luck-next-year's do we have?!?! I'm seriously annoyed by our half-assed rebuilding process. If we're gonna rebuild, then let's effing rebuild, if we're not going to rebuild, let's pull a Danny Ainge! ENOUGH OF THIS CRAP.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

I know the feeling but this is what rebuilding is like. A slow-tedious process where you sometimes never see the fruits of your labor. This is why I was against it in our situation where we had the prospects with potential, talent and youth to move a few bad eggs and put a respectable team on the floor. We would have built up there trade value at the very least which doesn't sound like a terrible plan to me. Hopefully the wait will see the kind of excitement we should expect with a D'Antoni offense.


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

TwinkieFoot said:


> I know the feeling but this is what rebuilding is like. A slow-tedious process where you sometimes never see the fruits of your labor. This is why I was against it in our situation where we had the prospects with potential, talent and youth to move a few bad eggs and put a respectable team on the floor. We would have built up there trade value at the very least which doesn't sound like a terrible plan to me. Hopefully the wait will see the kind of excitement we should expect with a D'Antoni offense.


Rebuilding doesn't even have to be a hard process, there are two ways to go: Blazers or Celtics. Choose either/or, I was just on the Blazers board... they have 86 viewers in there forum 47 are GUESTS and 39 were members... We're a deadbeat team, can't we just start a fresh? This needs to get done, FAST.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Gotham2krazy said:


> Rebuilding doesn't even have to be a hard process, there are two ways to go: Blazers or Celtics. Choose either/or, I was just on the Blazers board... they have 86 viewers in there forum 47 are GUESTS and 39 were members... We're a deadbeat team, can't we just start a fresh? This needs to get done, FAST.


..yeah, the Blazers have rebuilt so well that I'm excited and jealous of them at the same time; excited because they'll be a great watch and inspiration for us as we rebuild but jealous of the fact it seemed to come so quickly for them. 

Oden is a big part of why we think so highly of them (not often you get a no.1 pick and talent of his caliber). The thing that kills me though is that this guy hasn't even played yet and they still looked pretty damn good despite being the youngest team in the league in one of the toughest conferences in decades. 

*Then on top of that, they just added BAYLESS, a talent that was thought to be top 5 in this draft.* As much as he might not be a pure PG, the Blazers have the personnel (Brandon Roy's all-around game) that make up and compliment this fact. Your talking of a team of lottery picks that seemed to be put together over the course of 3 seasons, which is unheard of.

I just don't understand how we've missed out on executives like the Kevin Pritchard's (Blazers) and Jeff Bower's (Hornets) of the world when we have so much cash at our disposal. Donnie Walsh obviously have an extensive resume, so we'll have to wait and see what he does but I doubt he gets things turned around as quick or as effectively as those guys.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

LOL Kiya is on a roll...go head with your bad self!


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

*It bothers me when I read or hear someone say this or that player is untradeable.* 
That sentence has always been proven wrong 8 times out of 10 in Pro-sports, and it becomes a contradictable statement. 
*Everyone of the Knicks Players can be traded with a persistent and determined G.M., President, or Owner. Even Jerome James can be traded.* 

What Knick Players that are under contract next season dont fit into coach D'Antoni system? lets see 
Does players like James, Curry, Zach, Malik, Q.Rich (whom he had traded), Jefferies, Crawford, and Marbury (whom he had traded), fit into coach D'Antoni's uptempo system? 
All of the above eight-players have big flaws in their talents and skillz at playing in an uptempo system. 

Throughout Marbury & Crawford NBA career they have always walked the ball upcourt 85% of each NBA game they have played. This have never fitted into any of their NBA coaches shemes. This is a known factor throughout the NBA scouts. And adding Raymond Felton to the backcourt with these two players on the roster is supposed to be an improvement because he fits into D'Antoni system. 
I'm not buying it. 

*The Knicks were supposed to make some serious roster changes on draft night, even if it meant giving up the 6th pick.* 

Maybe that is the reason why Walsh did not hire Mark Jackson as the coach. Mark Jackson is more affiliated with this Knick roster and would've had Donnie Walsh "WORK" day and night three weeks before draft night on having these so-call untradeable players traded on that night with the 6th pick.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

*Alot of Knick-Fans, B-Ball Fans, and NBA commentators during this Knick regular season will start to question coach D'Antoni's winning record in Phoenix.* 

Knick Fans will question celebrity Head Coach D'Antoni NBA career? 

*Did the Phoenix Suns winning system come from coach D'Antoni?* 

Or was it from the old plays and running-style of Phoenix Star-Players Marion and Jason Kidd? inwhich PG-Kidd replacement PG-Steve Nash (the Mavs Dirk & Nash combination) passing talent improved by 60% with a scoring Bigman machine Amare Stoudemire on one side and Captain Marion on the other side? 
And having a Star Combo-Guard at SG-Joe Johnson who Defense vs Offense was hard to compare which was better (TOP-5 SG in the league) played a big important role in making the Phoenix uptempo (seven second) system work sufficient. Which automatically made PG-Steve Nash a MVP in one season for fitting into this "Joe, Marion, and Amare" system 110% like he was the last fingers in the glove. 
*Marbury long dribbling, lack of creative passing skillz on a break, and forever walking the ball upcourt slowed Marion skillz down from his defensive-rebounding and pushing the ball upcourt with Jason Kidd.* 

For as long as I can remember the majority of the teams in the Western Conference became Fast Uptempo Running Teams since 1976 when the ABA was combined with the NBA. 
Very few coaches did well when changing from the West Coast to the East Coast half court defense.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

maybe its just me but to me there is no player or players better than the team,

what this team has as steadying forces are management, head their overall plan and the system in which they play.

imo david lee is not a starter in today's nba the way he plays , he is a power forward who doesn't protect the lane , or his teammates , the next hard pick he sets will be his 1st , he doesn't score alot , he is a reluctant jumpshooter nor is he a standout defender .

what he does do is hustle , rebound and hit a good % of the opportunities that he does take, thats not enough , my issues with him are mostly mentality , outside of scoring which takes actual skill, everything he could do in his next game with no practice.

to me its simple he has value around the league of a starter , but for the knicks he just isn't one...that being said if his talents worked out fine for what the knicks need , no one would ever want him and he could be a knicks fixture his whole career.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

Da Grinch said:


> maybe its just me but to me there is no player or players better than the team,
> 
> what this team has as steadying forces are management, head their overall plan and the system in which they play.
> 
> ...



The reason why David Lee is a Starter is because he is ambidextrous and can change his form of style with the different Knick oposition starting lineups so the Knicks wont fall behind in points in the first quarter (which the Knicks have a habit of doing in the first quarter with Davis, Frye, and Zach as starters alongside of C-Curry). 
David Lee finding an opening to take the ball to the basket two to four times in the first quarter is also a great help in putting oposition starters in early foul trouble along with him getting position for the rebound.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

The optimistic Knicks look like they are ready to make some roster changes after July 1st. So far PG-Duhorn is the big talk. 
*Who is the Knicks G.M.? *
I am not one who likes to make numerous trades over the offseason but..... the no-chemistry Knicks for the last several seasons has to make some huge roster changes before training camp begins this offseason. 
*Here's the Knick roster:* 

Robinson, Nate G- 5.9 180 "Keeper" 

Crawford, Jamal G- 6.5 190 

Collins, Mardy PG- 6.6 220 "Keeper" 

Marbury, Stephon PG- 6.2 205 

Richardson, Quentin GF- 6.6 235 

Jeffries, Jared GF- 6.11 240 

Chandler, Wilson GF- 6.8 220 "Keeper" 

Gallinari, Danilo SF- 6.8 210 

Balkman, Renaldo F- 6.8 208 "Keeper" 

Rose, Malik F- 6.7 255 

Randolph, Zach PF- 6.9 260 

Lee, David FC- 6.9 240 "Keeper" 

Curry, Eddy C- 6.11 285 

James, Jerome FC- 7.1 285 

It may look bad as an old time Knick-Fan that out of the 14 players on the roster I only picked 5 players as "Keepers", my reason is these 5 players have chemistry in an uptempo or halfcourt game, plus they play relentless on both sides of the court. 

What players do you think on this roster could help the Knicks win 41 games next season?


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Really, Kiyaman....*

What on earth do you have against Gallinari? It would seem that the reality is that you can have no idea what he will bring. How do you know he isn't a keeper? I am not sold on either Collins or Nate. Nate has a low Bball IQ and doesn't play defense, and Collins has shown NO ability to do anything well. His handle is suspect and he was terrorized by opposing PG pressure into turnovers numerous times last year. His shooting is not good at all and his defense (which is SUPPOSED to be his strong point) was not impressive.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

Um... Mardy Collins a keeper? Really? He was argumentatively the worst guard in the league last year and he was such under garbage minutes.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Kiyaman said:


> The reason why David Lee is a Starter is because he is ambidextrous and can change his form of style with the different Knick oposition starting lineups so the Knicks wont fall behind in points in the first quarter (which the Knicks have a habit of doing in the first quarter with Davis, Frye, and Zach as starters alongside of C-Curry).
> David Lee finding an opening to take the ball to the basket two to four times in the first quarter is also a great help in putting oposition starters in early foul trouble along with him getting position for the rebound.



thats not really something that translates to winning .

in the 14 games that zach didn't start the knicks were 0-14.

http://aol.nba.com/playerfile/zach_randolph/season_splits.html

ultimately what happens is the knicks still fall behind with lee starting , but without him as an energy player in the 2nd unit , the knicks dont come back usually and when they do it is never enough(0-14).

Lee starting doesn't help the knicks win because he doesn't do what is needed from him to be a starter .

he isn't a scorer , but he isn't a defender either , he doesn't do any of those pyhsical intangibles that power forwards do that win games like stand up for teammates , set hard picks , give hard fouls , defend the lane, he is still a reluctant jumpshooter despite being a decent shooter for a 4 , which makes his Fg % sky high but its a bit hollow if he doesn't shoot jumpshots when they come to him, if he isn't going to shoot them he shouldn't be out there to recieve passes .

he is a good player but as it stands now he isn't ready .


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: Really, Kiyaman....*



alphaorange said:


> What on earth do you have against Gallinari? It would seem that the reality is that you can have no idea what he will bring. How do you know he isn't a keeper? I am not sold on either Collins or Nate. Nate has a low Bball IQ and doesn't play defense, and Collins has shown NO ability to do anything well. His handle is suspect and he was terrorized by opposing PG pressure into turnovers numerous times last year. His shooting is not good at all and his defense (which is SUPPOSED to be his strong point) was not impressive.


Collins showed a lot of substance at the end of his rookie year and then his knee needed surgery. After coming back, I felt like his confidence was shattered due to inconsistent rotation by Zeke (because of the Marbury situation) and the lack of touches since Crawford was always bringing up the ball. I think that caused him to be really shaky and I just think he still deserves to show what he's got, bust or not. Hopefully, he'll do really well during summer league this year. I really like his style.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

*Here is my clarity for the reason I picked the 5 "Keepers". *
They have some raw athletic talent that makes them Great Role-Players that could come off the bench and score off of their hustling-defense and ball-pressure. 
These 5 players has lacked a NBA "system-plan" and the playingtime to improve their offense/defense talents. 
*David Lee ambidextrous switch-up style and Nate early pressure on the ball are probably the only Starters & Finishers out of the 5 "Keepers", but they are chemistry role-players that could use two athletic star players in their starting line-up.* 

I give 6.6 PG-Marty Collins a pass for this past season performance after having a Knee-Surgery in the offseason (The majority of athletes needed a season off after having any kind of surgery done to their knee) . 
I know personally how bad a person confidence level can drop when pain stirs up at doing things you regularly do with ease and comfort. 
If Mardy Collins dont show a huge improvement early nextseason than "FIRE" his *** too. 
6.6 Collins & 5.9 Nate raw performance together was supposed to team-up to knock the clown show of "Marbury & Crawford" out of the playingtime box. 

Throughout Crawford and Marbury NBA career the two guards has not showed any chemistry with each other or any of their teammate guards on this team or other teams. Which is a Fact that members keep letting pass. 
It becomes very hard to beat any team that has two co-existing guards that will consistently team-up together with a chemistry plan to make their other teammates talents better. 

*Here are some tandem guards who chemistry together has improve their teammates performance:* Billup & Rip, Iverson & Snow, Kidd & Kittles, Parker & Ginobli, Nash & Joe Johnson, Fisher & Kobe, Baron Davis & J.Richardson, and Rondo & Ray Allen. I could go on as far as Seattle "Gus Williams & Dennis Johnson" and how they made their center Webster look like a Star.

After four (4) seasons together the "Marbury & Crawford" Tandem should have chemistry in their performance together, but they dont. They make their teammates performance look bad with their selfish decision making. 
And Crawford is worst than Marbury. Crawford let his homeboy Eddy Curry have another bad season while he ran the offense on this team. Some may say its all Curry fault which it is, but when your Homeboy see you lacking its his job as your close friend to pick you up and put you up to date. 
Both players (Marbury & Crawford) should not be on the Knicks roster next season after having four Knick coaches fail from their poor floor leadership...


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

*July 8th 2008*

Was Walsh a big mistake when Kiki Vandeweigh was available when Isiah Thomas was found guilty in the Annucha Trail. 
Larry Bird already turned the Indiana Pacers back into a Postseason team after just the 3 months departure of Walsh. 

The Spurs and the Boston Celtics WON their Championships off of pure DEFENSE! D'Antoni got FIRED because the last 3 years he refuse to add DEFENSE.

Under Walsh and D'Antoni the Knicks now have 
*PG-Duhorn, 
PG-Marbury, 
PG-Nate, 
PG-Collins, 
and a so-call SG-Crawford* who only talent is being a selfish scoring PG that luvs to dribble the ball. 
*The Knicks have FIVE (5) PG on their roster*. 

The Knicks were already loaded at the SF position with 5 players that like to play at the SF position. Adding SF-Gallinari to roster that have a 
*SF-Q.Richardson *a player that divides the lockerroom, 
*SF-Jefferies *that cant get any of his teammates to help him defend with his poor defensive method, 
*SF-Balkman *who thinks Isiah is a clown, SF-Chandler who is looking foward to playing in an uptempo system, 
*SF-Lee *which like to switch positions from SF to PF depending on the oponent, 
*SF-Malik *who mastered playing alongside of both of the Spurs Bigmen (Robinson & Duncan) in the starting lineup. 
*The Knicks have 7 SF on their roster.* 

The Knicks have 5 PG's and 7 SF's which add up to 12 players on their roster with three big jokes as Bigmen name Zach, Curry, and Jerome James.

When are the Great Walsh and D'Antoni going to make some trades for a Starting Center, a Starting PF, and a Starting and backup SG??????


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Kiyaman said:


> *July 8th 2008*
> 
> Was Walsh a big mistake when Kiki Vandeweigh was available when Isiah Thomas was found guilty in the Annucha Trail.
> Larry Bird already turned the Indiana Pacers back into a Postseason team after just the 3 months departure of Walsh.
> ...


1.) Kiki Vandewegh has been one of the most overrated execs in the league. He got lucky in the draft with Carmelo Anthony, who was 3rd on his draft card behind LeBron James and....Mr.Darko Milicic himself. He's been a terrible evaluator of young talent otherwise, drafting busts like Nikolay Tskitasevthili (I know I spelt his name wrong). He was also responsible for overpaying on overrated players like Kenyon Martin and I believe Nene, who have nearly missed as many games as they've played and still on the cap for another 3-4 years. Not surprisingly so, the Nuggets have not made it past the first round of the playoffs since 2003.

2.) The 2008-2009 NBA season has not started yet, so unless you got a crystal ball, Larry Bird did not turn the Pacers into a postseason team. Last I checked, they traded a near expiring contract attached to an injuried all-star big man and got back a talented young PG whose injuries may in fact be career threatening, who still has 4 more years left on his contract. I would not exactly call that a stroke of genius on Larry's part especially when you still have Troy Murphy and Mike Dunleavy (which was his bright idea) on the payroll for another 3 years; vastly overpaid no less. *Isiah Thomas ironically followed a similar game plan (but just better IMO) and you criticized him for it, so why not Larry.*

3.) Mike D'Antoni actually left the Suns under his own accord and did not get fired like you mentioned. *Defense wins games and D'Antoni said it best that on average for 58 games during the regular season, his team did play the better defensive game. Imagine that in the Eastern Conference.*

4.) Danilo Gallanari is going to be groomed to play the 4 position and not the 3. Randolph is on the block so realistically it's only him and Gallanri at that position in the future.

Marbury is not going to be on the team come training camp, so your essentially down to just Duhon, Nate and Collins at the point; Crawford plays off guard. Considering that there are 15 spots on a roster, and 5 positions, 3 players at any position is considered to be good balance. Duhon may be no star but certainly is necessary considering that neither Nate or Mardy have been full-time PG's.

5.)Malik Rose was never a 3 in his career. He played behind Duncan and Robinson, not along side of them. David Lee was experimented at the 3 spot by both Thomas and Brown but proved to not be his best position; he can play spot minutes there but certainly is not a fit there.

6.) We have one of the best scoring big men in the league with Eddy Curry. He's certainly a starter at the 5 spot despite his obvious flaws. 

Jamal Crawford can fill in as our starting 2 guard, although I think he's better served coming off the bench as a 6th man. Crawford, however, could turn out to be one of the top SG's in a system like D'Antoni's because of his unique skill set. 

Whatever happened to David Lee starting at the 4 spot? You complained all year long about how he was the best option and now all of a sudden we don't have a guy capable of starting at the 4 spot?


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

7.) Enough with Danilo already. Have you seen him play? What if he turns out to be the best forward on our team? Would you not want him because there are multiple players that can play his position on the team?


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

D'Antoni does not emphasize defense, which makes him a non-championship type of coach. He will get you wins in the regular season by outscoring you to death, but it all boils down to a team playing adequate defense. He got pist when the Suns decided to bring in a defensive assistant coach. Look at the past few teams who have won the chip, take off the rosy glasses people, defense wins championships: Spurs, Celtics, Miami, Detriot, what do they all have in common? Jeez....

We need a shot blocker bad (center), I have to check out the list of potential candidates. I wouldn't mind trying to get Camby back. I think Walsh is going to be making more moves, it's just too early to panic and wonder what is taking so long. I was disappointed he didn't do anything during the draft, but I'm a wait until the end of July before I start calling for his head.

As for Mardy Collins, I'm sorry Gotham, he is not the answer. We need to move on and close that chapter.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

USSKittyHawk said:


> D'Antoni does not emphasize defense, which makes him a non-championship type of coach. He will get you wins in the regular season by outscoring you to death, but it all boils down to a team playing adequate defense. He got pist when the Suns decided to bring in a defensive assistant coach. Look at the past few teams who have won the chip, take off the rosy glasses people, defense wins championships: Spurs, Celtics, Miami, Detriot, what do they all have in common? Jeez....
> 
> We need a shot blocker bad, I have to check out the list of potential candidates. I wouldn't mind trying to get Camby back. I think Walsh is going to be making more moves, it's just too early to panic and wonder what is taking so long. I was disappointed he didn't do anything during the draft, but I'm a wait until the end of July before I start calling for his head.
> 
> As for Mardy Collins, I'm sorry Gotham, he is not the answer. We need to move on and close that chapter.


I'm so rediculously tired of this asinine and blatantly false excuse. He does preach defense. The Suns were tenth in the league last year in opponent points per end of possession at a 1.166. In a game played at the pace of the Knicks circa last season, that equates to 96.184 points per 48 minutes. Take the Knicks offense and play it at the pace of the Suns and it equates to 101.053 points per 48 minutes. Keep in mind that the Suns defensive efficiency went down after the O'Neal acquisition and before that they were as high as seventh in the league in opponent points per end of possession. You can argue that the tempo of the game needs to be adjusted, but not the defense.

As for the Spurs, Celtics, Heat, and Pistons and what they all have in common, the Spurs, Celtics, and heat all had at least two of the top fifteen players in the league at the time of their championship victories. The Celtics obviously have Garnett and Pierce. The Spurs have Ginobili, Duncan, and Parker. The Heat had Wade and O'Neal. This is the way it works. Talent wins championships. The Pistons were an anomaly championship team seen only two times during the history of the N.B.A. where the team did not have a top ten talent groomed by the organization or did not acquire an already proven championship caliber player. You would have to go back all the way to 1977 to find the last instance of it happening.

As for Walsh, he's looking like an imbecile already. The draft made sense in a way, but at the same time it made no sense at all. They had the worst small forward tandem in the league last year and it wasn't even close. They went out and drafted a small forward. That makes sense. Improve upon your biggest weakness.

However, the guy that they drafted made no sense. I know people have been ranting about giving Gallinari a chance and I will. He probably will become the Knicks best three, but that's more of a condemnation to the small forwards they already have than an endorsement of Gallinari. Sure he has plenty of intangibles, but he isn't taunted as an athletic player. Generally people with high intangibles and low athleticism don't really have much ceiling. He'll start off well, but won't really improve much. I see him as being a rich man's Luke Walton at best. He could have addressed all these issues by simply showing up at the combine, but he didn't participate, so I will be forced to go with the initial reports. Additionally draft sites had him dropping from sixth to low as sixteenth in the draft after he didn't participate in the combine and the Knicks still picked him up at sixth. Generally people with high intangibles and low athleticism don't really have much ceiling unless they're a super elite shooter, and he doesn't fit that category.

I would have preferred to take a guy in the draft that had the proven athletic ability, particularly Joe Alexander. I have a feeling he's going to be Amare Stoudemire all over again for the Knicks. If they weren't going to draft that athletically proven guy, then the shouldn't have drafted at all. Hey, you want the sixth pick? All you have to do is consume Jared Jeffries, Jerome James, and Quentin Richardson. Maybe they wouldn't have gotten rid of everyone, but house definitely needs to be cleaned and the Knicks did absolutely nothing to help themselves thus far. Being that the draft didn't really help them, they should have done it there.

As for the Duhon signing, congratulations on overpaying. He's going to start? Really? You put your best foot forward, and Robinson is the better foot. Duhon fell out of favor pretty fast with Chicago and now he's another overpaid schmuck from Chicago that's now on the Knicks. They need to go out, sign Frank Williams and Michael Sweetney and rename themselves the Bulls Rejects. As for Duhon, he won't be Jeffries bad or certainly not James bad, but he's a mediocre player and six million could have gotten the Knicks much, much more.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

urwhatueati8god said:


> I'm so rediculously tired of this asinine and blatantly false excuse. He does preach defense. The Suns were tenth in the league last year in opponent points per end of possession at a 1.166. In a game played at the pace of the Knicks circa last season, that equates to 96.184 points per 48 minutes. Take the Knicks offense and play it at the pace of the Suns and it equates to 101.053 points per 48 minutes. Keep in mind that the Suns defensive efficiency went down after the O'Neal acquisition and before that they were as high as seventh in the league in opponent points per end of possession. You can argue that the tempo of the game needs to be adjusted, but not the defense.


I'm so tired of the support posts for a coach who hasn't won anything on an NBA level, but people drool and fascinate over him anyway, based on his offensive mind. As you well know, numbers mean nothing to me, I watch the game and make my points off of that. I was never big on numbers because they can be very deceiving. Now explain why the Suns failed to get over the hump when it came down to the post season, when teams increase their defense the Suns just stood idle and thought outgunning their opponent would actually result into a championship. Also tell me why the Suns organization felt the need to bring in a defensive specialist without D'Antoni's support? Did they feel that the Suns weren't playing ample defense, and that D'Antoni was weak in that area? Explain why his practices were only less than an hour? Who does that, besides Isiah? I personally love his offense, don't like his lay back attitude, and think he is too much of a player's coach and will not discipline his players if he needed too.I peeped that in his coaching during the post season when he was wired up by TNT, he treats everyone with kid gloves, when he needed to tell his Suns players to grow some balls and get out their and fight. But of course, _some _of this is all my opinion, as the season starts we sha'll see who is accurate with their assesments. 



urwhatueati8god said:


> As for the Spurs, Celtics, Heat, and Pistons and what they all have in common, the Spurs, Celtics, and *heat all had at least two of the top fifteen players in the league at the time of their championship victories.* The Celtics obviously have Garnett and Pierce. The Spurs have Ginobili, Duncan, and Parker. The Heat had Wade and O'Neal. This is the way it works. Talent wins championships. The Pistons were an anomaly championship team seen only two times during the history of the N.B.A. where the team did not have a top ten talent groomed by the organization or did not acquire an already proven championship caliber player. You would have to go back all the way to 1977 to find the last instance of it happening.


How much talent did the Suns have? Did they win anything, without guarding anybody? Yes, part of your arguement is accurate, but talent + defense=championships. Doc River's teams preached defense through out the entire season and that proved to be the key in winning the chip. Try asking Pop, Riles, Doc, and Larry Brown if they felt they could have won the championship without emphaszing defense, and let's see what kind of answer you get. 



urwhatueati8god said:


> As for Walsh, he's looking like an imbecile already. The draft made sense in a way, but at the same time it made no sense at all. They had the worst small forward tandem in the league last year and it wasn't even close. They went out and drafted a small forward. That makes sense. Improve upon your biggest weakness.
> 
> However, the guy that they drafted made no sense. I know people have been ranting about giving Gallinari a chance and I will. He probably will become the Knicks best three, but that's more of a condemnation to the small forwards they already have than an endorsement of Gallinari. Sure he has plenty of intangibles, but he isn't taunted as an athletic player. Generally people with high intangibles and low athleticism don't really have much ceiling. He'll start off well, but won't really improve much. I see him as being a rich man's Luke Walton at best. He could have addressed all these issues by simply showing up at the combine, but he didn't participate, so I will be forced to go with the initial reports. Additionally draft sites had him dropping from sixth to low as sixteenth in the draft after he didn't participate in the combine and the Knicks still picked him up at sixth. Generally people with high intangibles and low athleticism don't really have much ceiling unless they're a super elite shooter, and he doesn't fit that category.
> 
> ...


The rest of your rant I can agree with, but I'm not so sure about giving the reins to Nate Robinson. His maturity has still come into question. I can't predict how we are going to do until Walsh does something witih this roster, if we keep the same people we are indeed doomed. In order for D'Antoni to succeed (in terms of improving our record from last year) he will need players that will fit in his offense. Right now on paper, we have maybe 4 players that fit that description. Let's resume the first part of this debate in reference to D'Antoni's lack of defense around the All-Star break in 2009, we sha'll also see who changes their tune then. If I was a betting girl, I will say it won't be me.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Whew.....*

1) D'Antoni's style certainly CAN win titles. He was a couple of horrible calls away from taking out the Spurs. When healthy, his teams competed very well in the ultra difficult West. His Suns team would have been in the Eastern Finals every year since they have been under D'A. Possibly not the first but in all subsequent years.

2) Maybe Gallinari will play small forward but Walsh and D'Antoni both have called him the PF.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: Whew.....*

With all due respect, by reading some the posts in this thread it supports Kiya's intial arguement. I think if Walsh would have hired Stu Jackson some of you would have be singing his sweet praises. I'm disgruntled and it won't change until I see the results on the court change. Call me a bitter fan all you want, but I call it like I see it. We haven't done anything in close to a decade and have been the laughing stock of the NBA for years, so why should I get all giddy like a school girl, thinking we are going somewhere. Again, D'Antoni is a coach that will get you to the post season, if that's what you are striving for, I applaud you, but if you want to win the big one in the next few years, _in my opinion_ he is not your answer.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

in a perfect world Nate would be the pg , but it isn't and he isn't a starter only because he has yet to embrace being a point guard , still trying to score too much and not doing all the things that duhon brings to a team that lacks intangibles that the point guard spot is supposed to have.

when he played a style of game where he set up his teammates consistently , he was excellent , not just for himself but for his team , but those moments didn't last and thats why he ultimately will need to come off the bench.

Duhon does it all the time , he can hit the trey ok , he can get in the lane ( no mid randge game really) he defnds and he does all the little things a point guard is supposed to do , he is a leader , he keeps people involved , he has that "it " that real point guards have. the knicks will have a head out there at the end of quarters unlike years past...they will be more cohesive...he isn't a great talent at all , in fact he is a marginal talent really , but he'll make a real differnce for the knicks.

i dont see why danilo is disliked , he is just a 19 yr. old rook who hasn't done so much as played a summer league game, he will in time i think be a decent 4 if he can be played with a frontcourt that has some bulk to it and some toughness, he should be something like a detlef schrempf in time a versatile sweet shooting player who can score in a variety of ways...i dont see dirk there.

zach must go ...i think Lee should be cashed in too (hopefully for a bruiser in the nene mold or an upgrade at one of the positions) and flank Galinari with guys like balkman and chandler 2 guys who play both frontcourt spots , are active and have skillsets that get alot done without the ball in their hands like getting steals , defensive stops , blocks, rebounds etc.

i'd like to see if JC can get with the program and be more high % in his shots , he never got to play with duhon in chicago basically the closest he has had to a true point guard on his roster has been marbury , he does better when he can play pg and create his own shots with that kind of pg help, Duhon might help....nate until he embraces a more point guard oriented role will probably just be a sparkplug type player , which is not bad but he is really capable of more.

mardy needs to be able to make some shots , if he could get himself to an avery johnson type 18 fter , he could be a 10 year starter in the league ...but he has no shot at all at this point so his future may well be in doubt , outside of darrell walker i cant remember a starting point guard so poor at shooting from anywhere , and walker if memory serves avg. like 8 boards a game at least once so he compensated somewhat for it.

i have hope that jared might be able to be more effective in an up an down game and be able to use some of his veratility .

the knicks have alot of diverse skillsets starting with 2 guys in the frontcourt who can at least inconsistently grab a board and start a break with their own handle in balkman and jeffries , guys who can usae their legnth and leaping ability to cause turnovers in balkman jeffries and chandler , guards who can take people off the dribble and get in the lane when they are so inclined, but too many of these guys cant shoot so i'm sure trades are coming


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

I am not going to D'Antoni a HOF coach but c'mon now . Was there any season he was supposed to win a title?

i didn't see it .

i never thought they had a good enough team to beat the spurs during the D'Antoni era.

Amare is great but Duncan may go down as the best player of this era and possibly the best 4 of all time, not being able to get past the suns is not a deathnell to a coach's abilies , the only coach i've seen do it twice in a row or with any type of consistency was Pjackson who has a resume that may be the best of all time when all is said and done.

nash is really good but magic johnson or i.Thomas he isn't and as a point guard its really hard to be the guy who steamrolls teams to a title and nash is good ...but he isn't that good.

but we'll see how good they are w/o D'Antoni soon enough , if he even made a difference while watching his new team and his old team .


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Grinch....*

You know who Gallinari reminds me of? A less athletic Tom Chambers with better handling and passing skills. I also think this kid is more athletic than we think. I saw a video of him catching an oop with both elbows at rim height. 

Kitty...I hated Stu Jackson as a coach. That being said, I'm not so much a fan of D'Antoni (I'm not that familiar with him yet) as I am with his style of offense, which I really like.


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

urwhatueati8god said:


> I would have preferred to take a guy in the draft that had the proven athletic ability, particularly Joe Alexander. I have a feeling he's going to be Amare Stoudemire all over again for the Knicks. If they weren't going to draft that athletically proven guy, then the shouldn't have drafted at all. Hey, you want the sixth pick? All you have to do is consume Jared Jeffries, Jerome James, and Quentin Richardson. Maybe they wouldn't have gotten rid of everyone, but house definitely needs to be cleaned and the Knicks did absolutely nothing to help themselves thus far. Being that the draft didn't really help them, they should have done it there.


Yeah, I feel you, I definitely like that kid Alexander, he's my dark horse for ROY. He might create the Amare situation all over for us again, but he definitely plays more D than Amare. I feel like the sky's the limit with this kid, I feel like he can be a high flying Ron Artest.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

Gotham2krazy said:


> Yeah, I feel you, I definitely like that kid Alexander, he's my dark horse for ROY. He might create the Amare situation all over for us again, but he definitely plays more D than Amare. I feel like the sky's the limit with this kid, I feel like he can be a high flying Ron Artest.


And his combine numbers, my God.

No step vertical of 32.5 inches
Maximum vertical of 36.5 inches
24 bench press repetitions
Lane agility in 11.33 seconds
3/4 court sprint in 2.99 seconds!


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

joe alexander has no handle really , you dont see many star small forwards who cant beat their man off the dribble.

and yeah alpha i saw the youtube clip when he caught that alley oop. he is really a good athlete not quite at alexander level but good enough to get some things done at the nba level because he has a good handle and some hops.

i dont see the knicks sorry they didn't get alexander unless galinari completely flops...and even then he should be able to hit an open J.


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