# Is this Convincing Enough?



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

December 11, 2006

Phoenix Suns at Orlando Magic




> Phoenix Suns (pk)
> Orlando Magic (pk)


LINK





> Enigma said:
> 
> 
> > Howard with 6 fouls, I believe all of them were on the offensive end and loose ball fouls. I wonder if that is some kind of record? Fouling out with no defensive fouls.
> ...


LINK




> Arena:
> Amway Arena, Orlando, FL
> Officials:
> *#21 Tim Donaghy* , #45 Joe Forte , #64 Eli Roe
> ...


LINK


Even line, seems pretty obvious to me that the easiest way to ensure a Suns victory would be to take Dwight Howard out of the game completely. I understand this game meant absolutely nothing in the long run and I'm not trying to stir up some conspiracy against the Magic by Donaghy or try to complain about the Magic getting screwed or anything like that. I just think there's a very good chance he had something to gain from a Suns victory that night. You convinced?


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## JT3000 (Nov 3, 2004)

Obviously. That was utterly ridiculous.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

First of all, why would the refs need to intervene in a game the Suns were going to win anyway?

Second, what makes this game so important?

Third, maybe, possible, Dwight actually did foul out on his own? 

These conspiracy theories are ridiculous.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Jizzy said:


> First of all, why would the refs need to intervene in a game the Suns were going to win anyway?
> 
> Second, what makes this game so important?
> 
> ...


Your blatant misunderstanding of everything involved is hilarious, but not surprising because you just wanted to come in here and troll. 

To answer your first question, why was it given the Suns were going to win this anyway? The Magic were 15-6 and leading the Eastern Conference going into the game and at home, that's why the line was even for the game smart ***. 

Secondly, you completely misunderstand the situation to think Donaghy would only affect games that are important. Last time I checked you can bet on games that aren't "important", am I right? 

Finally, your point about Dwight actually fouling out on his own is just a misinformed attempt at a shot at him because you don't like him. But here are some FACTS. Dwight played 94 total games last season, and fouled out exactly TWO other times, but somehow managed to foul out in 19 minutes in this game? Not ONE of the foul calls against Dwight was defensive, not ONE. All of his calls were away from the ball and offensive. It was ridiculous, if you had watched the game you would know that. 

And this is not some crazy conspiracy theory, and I made that pretty obvious that I don't think anyone was out to get the Magic, or Dwight Howard, or the Bulls, or the Clippers, or anyone else that people are claiming around here -- There was a ref who, in my mind, undoubtedly affected games in which he refereed to win money gambling and to help acquaintances win money as well. Is that so hard to understand? I'm just saying looking at the facts in this game, I have a strong feeling something was up and he needed the Suns to cover, which in this case meant they had to win. It was a 2 point game at the half, but Dwight picked up a quick 3rd and 4th foul away from the ball to start the 2nd half (and a technical because of how ridiculous and blatant the terrible officiating was) and was on the bench for the rest of the 3rd quarter as the Suns outscored the Magic 30-14 to ensure victory. 

Tell me I'm being unreasonable and this doesn't sound like there's any way it could be true.


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## X-Factor (Aug 24, 2004)

I`ll buy into that. It`s most definitely a very peculiar coincidence if Donaghy didn`t have something to do with the outcome. The league is looking into things like this, and I wouldn`t be surprised if your observation came out as having merit.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Jizzy said:


> First of all, why would the refs need to intervene in a game the Suns were going to win anyway?
> 
> Second, what makes this game so important?
> 
> ...


lol .. unintentional comedy is great.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

> Your blatant misunderstanding of everything involved is hilarious, but not surprising because you just wanted to come in here and troll.



Not trolling, just questioning.



> To answer your first question, why was it given the Suns were going to win this anyway? The Magic were 15-6 and leading the Eastern Conference going into the game and at home, that's why the line was even for the game smart ***.



Doesn't mean ****. The Suns were going to wi that game and you know it. The Magic got off to a hot start, good for them but the rest of the season and the playoffs brought the truth out of them.



> Secondly, you completely misunderstand the situation to think Donaghy would only affect games that are important. Last time I checked you can bet on games that aren't "important", am I right?


How paranoid you are. I'm sur there are bigger games and bigger bets on the table then who wins a Suns-Magics game. CMon, honestly man.




> Finally, your point about Dwight actually fouling out on his own is just a misinformed attempt at a shot at him because you don't like him. But here are some FACTS. Dwight played 94 total games last season, and fouled out exactly TWO other times, but somehow managed to foul out in 19 minutes in this game? Not ONE of the foul calls against Dwight was defensive, not ONE. All of his calls were away from the ball and offensive. It was ridiculous, if you had watched the game you would know that.


Wait, wait, wait, wait, Dwight fouling out two other times makes him inept to picking up quick fouls and having one short night? Shocking!



> And this is not some crazy conspiracy theory, and I made that pretty obvious that I don't think anyone was out to get the Magic, or Dwight Howard, or the Bulls, or the Clippers, or anyone else that people are claiming around here -- There was a ref who, in my mind, undoubtedly affected games in which he refereed to win money gambling and to help acquaintances win money as well. Is that so hard to understand? I'm just saying looking at the facts in this game, I have a strong feeling something was up and he needed the Suns to cover, which in this case meant they had to win. It was a 2 point game at the half, but Dwight picked up a quick 3rd and 4th foul away from the ball to start the 2nd half (and a technical because of how ridiculous and blatant the terrible officiating was) and was on the bench for the rest of the 3rd quarter as the Suns outscored the Magic 30-14 to ensure victory.
> 
> Tell me I'm being unreasonable and this doesn't sound like there's any way it could be true.


This isn't a conspiracy theory? Are you sane?


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

It's games like this that he probably fixed to try and be undetectable. Even line, a game that anyone expects the Suns to have success in. Perfect game to bet on and try to make it seem as if nothing is planned to fix it. That was probably Donaghy's plan, to try and divert attention.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Jizzy said:


> Not trolling, just questioning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Seriously bro-ha ... you need some edumacation.


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## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

This is the first game that Magic fans thought of when the Donaghy thing broke. If you actually watched the game, the officiating was beyond terrible. This game was also mentioned in a national article about games that might have been influenced by Donaghy, so it's not just "paranoid" Magic fans who think something was odd.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Captain Obvious said:


> This is the first game that Magic fans thought of when the Donaghy thing broke. If you actually watched the game, the officiating was beyond terrible. This game was also mentioned in a national article about games that might have been influenced by Donaghy, so it's not just "paranoid" Magic fans who think something was odd.


NO! Phoenix was going to win anyway! And nobody cared about that game! Who the hell would bet on an Orlando game? Dwight Howard suxors!


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## MickyEyez (Aug 25, 2006)

Jizzy said:


> *Doesn't mean ****. The Suns were going to wi that game and you know it. The Magic got off to a hot start, good for them but the rest of the season and the playoffs brought the truth out of them.
> 
> 
> 
> How paranoid you are. I'm sur there are bigger games and bigger bets on the table then who wins a Suns-Magics game. CMon, honestly man.*


i'm guessin you dont know much about sports betting... line movements, trends, etc...

doesn't matter how big the game is... the fact is there are millions and millions flying around in vegas everyday. he was involved with the mob and he obviously got his fat chunk of change for throwing these games towards one result so that the they could make some $$$...

simple as that...


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Jizzy said:


> Doesn't mean ****. The Suns were going to wi that game and you know it. The Magic got off to a hot start, good for them but the rest of the season and the playoffs brought the truth out of them.


Actually, no I don't know it. What does the rest of the season have to do with anything? The game was played in December when the Magic were playing great and Phoenix was still recovering from their horrific start. The Magic had a better record at the time and were at home. That's why the line for the game was even, because not everyone knew the Suns would win. They weren't even favored.





> How paranoid you are. I'm sur there are bigger games and bigger bets on the table then who wins a Suns-Magics game. CMon, honestly man.


How paranoid am I? The question is how stupid are you? Do you really think it makes sense to only fix the "important" and "big" games. You know, the ones where more people pay attention and would thus be more likely to pick up on something like this. Do you even believe what you're writing, because it's so illogical and so stupid I can't even fathom the thought process you must be going through to write this crap. 






> Wait, wait, wait, wait, Dwight fouling out two other times makes him inept to picking up quick fouls and having one short night? Shocking!


My point was that he fouled out a little over 2% of the other games that he played in, playing over 35 mpg, yet on this night with the corrupt ref he fouled out on SIX non-defensive fouls in 19 minutes on the court. That doesn't seem in the least bit suspicious to you? And I'm not even talking about the actual calls, I really wish I had the video of this game to show you his fouls and then have you try to tell me something wasn't going on.


And Captain Obvious, do you have the link to that story? I'd like to take a look at it.


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## JT3000 (Nov 3, 2004)

This guy is hurting the overall IQ level of our board. Someone throw him out.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Jizzy said:


> First of all, why would the refs need to intervene in a game the Suns were going to win anyway?
> 
> Second, what makes this game so important?
> 
> ...


Point spread dummy, go back to the your Jim Jones fan club , moron.


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## lw32 (May 24, 2003)

Jizzy said:


> First of all, why would the refs need to intervene in a game the Suns were going to win anyway?
> 
> Second, what makes this game so important?
> 
> ...


Enjoy fishing Jizzy?


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## MickyEyez (Aug 25, 2006)

Jizzy aint comin back... what a tool. i was hopin he would have more to add.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

MickyEyez said:


> Jizzy aint comin back... what a tool. i was hopin he would have more to add.


I just wish he made any sense at all.


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## MickyEyez (Aug 25, 2006)

hobojoe said:


> I just wish he made any sense at all.


too many people out there are either: B. naive B. don't know anything outside of their bubble and can't understand how this world is C. retarded D. all of the above

Jizzy just sounds like he is: D


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Anyone got a video of that game? I think a lot still depend on who made those calls. If it was the other 2 that called all those fouls on Howard,it still wouldn't be enough proof of him manipulating something more than point spread.


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## MickyEyez (Aug 25, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> Anyone got a video of that game? I think a lot still depend on who made those calls. If it was the other 2 that called all those fouls on Howard,it still wouldn't be enough proof of him manipulating something more than point spread.


Hobo already explained this... he said that he couldn't find a video and wishes he could (not surprising it's not online, because it would violate copyright laws as footage is property of the NBA). 

The point isn't whether or not Donaghy called all of those ridiculous fouls (i'm sure he called a lot of them)... the point is that the game wasn't legit and it was OBVIOUS that there were WAY too many calls on Dwight, let alone the fact that they were all either off the ball fouls, or offensive. i'm not saying that donaghy took it into his own hands to take Dwight out (because he couldn't unless he ejected him) and i'm not saying that Dwight didn't deserve any of those calls... but the fact that he fouled out within 19 minutes, which just makes it obvious that the fix was on in this game. 



> it still wouldn't be enough proof of him manipulating something more than point spread.


What else would he be manipulating??  

that is what this discussion is about, that is EXACTLY what he is being interrogated for.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

MickyEyez said:


> Hobo already explained this... he said that he couldn't find a video and wishes he could (not surprising it's not online, because it would violate copyright laws as footage is property of the NBA).


Because hobo is the only guy that has access to nba videos?

I have more than 50 Raptors games on hard drive from last year, because I'm a raptor fan. I was hoping that someone here might have the same.

And NBA game videos are online, welcome to 2007. Lol @ your believe at copyright laws. I want to thank you on behave of the music industry, gaming industry, video industry, etc. It's people like you that keeps us from shrinking even faster.

If the other 2 referees called these fouls, then you can't really say that Tim Donaghy altered the game outcome because the outcome of the game was mostly decided by Howard getting tossed. What Donaghy could've done was altered a 8 point game and turn it into a 13 point game or something like that with or without Howard being on the floor. A lot of fans are interested to know whether or not Tim Donaghy had enough influence or willingness to change a loss to a win for certain teams. So far, from the stats at nba.com they have only shown that the games that Donaghy officiated the point totals were higher.


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## MickyEyez (Aug 25, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> If the other 2 referees called these fouls, then you can't really say that Tim Donaghy altered the game outcome because the outcome of the game was mostly decided by Howard getting tossed. What Donaghy could've done was altered a 8 point game and turn it into a 13 point game or something like that with or without Howard being on the floor. A lot of fans are interested to know whether or not Tim Donaghy had enough influence or willingness to change a loss to a win for certain teams. So far, from the stats at nba.com they have only shown that the games that Donaghy officiated the point totals were higher.


you my friend... have no clue on how sports betting works...

if stats from nba.com tell you that they usually just scored more when Donaghy was officiating, why is the mob involved? how is he making his money? the fact is that there are lines for EVERYTHING in vegas. It could've been easily something as small as who scores more: Dwight or Amare? the obvious in this game would've been amare. let's go a little higher to the 1st half line and total, that can be altered by ONE referee that blows his whistle on the most important player early in the game... in the first 19 min?? $$ would follow first half and the game line, and it would be extremely EASY $$$$$. I'm going to ignore the fact that you even said that it wouldn't have matter all that much with Dwight being in the game.

He didn't foul out dwight, but he obviously had a hand in it. it's a very simple scenario.. NBA ref wants lots of $$ and does it by doing his part to try to make sure it happens. How many "bad calls" have you seen? i'm assuming a lot, so imagine if all those calls really WERE bad calls, but you didn't know there was a reason behind those calls... is that so hard to believe?

its stupid to think that taking out dwight that early in the game AND putting them in foul trouble on makes a 5 point difference. it makes no sense to have vegas set the line at PK and "ironically" Dwight fouls out and they end up losing by 14. 

Vegas has very very rich professionals that are DAMN good at making sure that Vegas wins money by setting the lines. They are more often than not within 3-5 points of the line that is set. those lines are set for the "public" so that they can make $$, they do that by making a certain team look attractive so they can make even more money. Bottom line, these guys are goooood, and it makes no sense for orlando to lose at home by 14 after losing dwight that early in the game... in a game that was set at PK (pick em, which you also probably didn't know). 

Donaghy, like all referees in the NBA, have the power to break the vegas bank (which is why the mob cut him a fat check).



hobojoe said:


> Dwight played 94 total games last season, and fouled out exactly TWO other times, but somehow managed to foul out in 19 minutes in this game? Not ONE of the foul calls against Dwight was defensive, not ONE. All of his calls were away from the ball and offensive. It was ridiculous, if you had watched the game you would know that.


That pretty much sums it up.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

MickyEyez said:


> you my friend... have no clue on how sports betting works...


You my friend, can't read.

When I say altering outcome, I am talking about whether a team will lose or win because of Tim Donaghy. From looking at this particular game, Dwight Howard getting tossed would be the main reason to why the Magic lost the game. If most of Howard's fouls were called by the other 2 officials, you can't really blame this losing factor on Tim Donaghy. The important part here is, "Did Tim Donaghy blow fouls on Dwight Howard? How many fouls did he blow on him?" If the other 2 refs blew 5 fouls on Dwight and Donaghy blew 1, how do you prove that Donaghy altered the game?

From the reports, it has already been statistically proven that the point totals from Tim Donaghy refed games were higher than regular ones. If I am not mistaken, the thread starter wanted to show that Tim Donaghy tossed Dwight Howard on purpose in order to alter the game win/loss result. And I am curious as to whether or not Donaghy actually called these fouls on Howard. But because nobody has a video of that game, we really can't tell.


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## MickyEyez (Aug 25, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> You my friend, can't read.
> 
> *When I say altering outcome, I am talking about whether a team will lose or win because of Tim Donaghy. From looking at this particular game, Dwight Howard getting tossed would be the main reason to why the Magic lost the game.* If most of Howard's fouls were called by the other 2 officials, you can't really blame this losing factor on Tim Donaghy. The important part here is, "Did Tim Donaghy blow fouls on Dwight Howard? How many fouls did he blow on him?" If the other 2 refs blew 5 fouls on Dwight and Donaghy blew 1, how do you prove that Donaghy altered the game?
> 
> From the reports, it has already been statistically proven that the point totals from Tim Donaghy refed games were higher than regular ones. If I am not mistaken, the thread starter wanted to show that Tim Donaghy tossed Dwight Howard on purpose in order to alter the game win/loss result. And I am curious as to whether or not Donaghy actually called these fouls on Howard. But because nobody has a video of that game, we really can't tell.


I said that already... that is the point, "Dwight Howard getting tossed would be the main reason to why the Magic lost the game"... NO S#!T!! thanks for repeating exactly what i said.

you just dont get it.

you are right about one thing though, nobody knows who blew all the whistles on dwight... but THAT was the point of the thread starter... its extremely ironic that in a game that Donaghy officiated, Dwight fouled out in 19 min. We don't know who blew those whistles, but that is the theory... that Donaghy being one of the officials, probably played a large part in getting dwight fouled out. 

that stat you keep trying to throw out about the games he officiated being a higher total than others is absolutely POINTLESS. we do not care about that stat here and it has no relevance to this topic. You didn't mention that it has also been reported that they are looking back to all of their footage and other things to really find out how he changed the games. That is why the FBI is getting involved as well. Stern has stated that the NBA is going to cooperate with the FBI to find out exactly what Donaghy was doing and how he was altering the game's outcome.

i remember watching that game. It was absolutely ridiculous how Dwight was getting called for the offensive fouls just going up to the basket... The suns flopped a few times, but there were times the suns shuffled their feet a bit after dwight was bodying them up and dwight would get called. I remember dwight's reactions and i remember how even the suns were surprised by some of the calls. 

bottom line: it was a fixed game... that is the topic at hand. it was a loss for the Magic and it was set up to be that way... you still haven't taken a firm stance on what you are babbling about (rule #1 of a debate).


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

:no:

You are the one that doesn't get it.

Point totals matter because Donaghy games averaged more than 15 points than the average scored predicted in Vegas last year. That was the only thing they were able to prove statistically.

I am baffled to how you can repeat what I wrote and still come up with a fixed game conclusion.

If Donaghy didn't blow those fouls on Howard, then he didn't "alter" the game outcome. If he didn't alter the game outcome, he did not "fix" the game. He may have alter the point score at the end, make a 10 point game into a 15 point game or something like that, but he did not do something that would've changed the win/loss. That is what matters most to a NBA fan, and that is what I wanted to know.



> you still haven't taken a firm stance on what you are babbling about (rule #1 of a debate).


hmm....

The thread title is asking whether this is convincing enough. I asked for game video at the very beginning because it isn't convincing enough if the other 2 refs blew all those fouls on Howard. If Donaghy was the one that blew those fouls, then you can make an argument, until then, one can only be suspicious. Yet, common logic tells me that it's likely the fouls were mostly called by the other refs. If Donaghy went berserk on Howard and tossed Howard in 19 minutes all by himself, the other 2 refs would've found that suspicious rightaway and someone from the NBA would've noticed that.

Again, I don't understand how you could've missed my point after your huge replies. Do you even read what people write or you just say what's on your mind?


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## MickyEyez (Aug 25, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> :no:
> 
> You are the one that doesn't get it.
> 
> Point totals matter because Donaghy games averaged more than 15 points than the average scored predicted in Vegas last year. That was the only thing they were able to prove statistically.


so why don't you tell me what that means? explain how he made money then? they just took the over for all the games he adjusted? thats my point that i've tried to get across that TIME AND TIME again you simply dont get it. you have no idea how sports betting works, and that's why you are just making yourself sound more and more clueless.




seifer0406 said:


> I am baffled to how you can repeat what I wrote and still come up with a fixed game conclusion.
> 
> If Donaghy didn't blow those fouls on Howard, then he didn't "alter" the game outcome. If he didn't alter the game outcome, he did not "fix" the game. He may have alter the point score at the end, make a 10 point game into a 15 point game or something like that, but he did not do something that would've changed the win/loss. That is what matters most to a NBA fan, and that is what I wanted to know.


you are retarded.





seifer0406 said:


> hmm....
> 
> The thread title is asking whether this is convincing enough. I asked for game video at the very beginning because it isn't convincing enough if the other 2 refs blew all those fouls on Howard. If Donaghy was the one that blew those fouls, then you can make an argument, until then, one can only be suspicious. Yet, common logic tells me that it's likely the fouls were mostly called by the other refs. If Donaghy went berserk on Howard and tossed Howard in 19 minutes all by himself, the other 2 refs would've found that suspicious rightaway and someone from the NBA would've noticed that.


still not getting anywhere with that statement. i feel like a broken record, so i wont even repeat myself on this.



seifer0406 said:


> Again, I don't understand how you could've missed my point after your huge replies. Do you even read what people write or you just say what's on your mind?


what point? you still haven't made one... i'm waiting.

unless of course your point is that its not cause of donaghy that dwight fouled out in 19 min. even after we found out that Donaghy was involved in a betting scandal.


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## MickyEyez (Aug 25, 2006)

hobojoe said:


> I just wish he made any sense at all.


i'm not even going to post in this thread anymore, because i know what you were saying... and i agree with you...

i'm tired of trying to explain to all of the clueless people out there how this all ties together and how sports betting works.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

You know what, I give up. Send me a PM when you decide to read. I don't know how I can break down my post even more clearly.

You should send a mail to FBI to tell them to halt investigation. Since you seem to have sufficient proof right here. Give me a break.



> so why don't you tell me what that means? explain how he made money then? they just took the over for all the games he adjusted? thats my point that i've tried to get across that TIME AND TIME again you simply dont get it. you have no idea how sports betting works, and that's why you are just making yourself sound more and more clueless.


Ever heard of Over/Under scores? I thought you are some sort of sports betting guru. Want to shed some light on what happens when the referee has a preference on the total amount of points scored in the game? As I've said for the thousandth time, this is the only thin they can prove statistically at this point. It is not the only thing he can/want to change, but theres no proof. To show one weird game and say that it's all him isn't convincing anybody. And yes, there were signs where big money were poured into over right before the games to the point where odds were shifted. Go read the reports before we have another conversation, it's not going anywhere.



> you are retarded.


I am going to take the high road here. Not going to stoop to your level of throwing insults.


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## deanwoof (Mar 10, 2003)

hey guys.. nobody knows what he betted on or what the mob betted on. it could be over under, 1st half points, 2nd half points, or like what was mentioned amare vs dwight, if sideshow bob showed up at the game or not, if the announcers would pronounce it "turk-o-lu or "turkey-glue", if grant hill would shatter his ankle again, or if travis diener would take a shot. 

fact is, it doesnt make any sense of either of you to say the other is wrong. you very well both could be right, but i think we can all agree that the game was fishy and the fact that he reffed the game, made it even fishier and more likely that he fixed it in some form or another. 

peace out.


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## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

We were involved in three of the seven games that the NY Post thinks were possibly fixed.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/0722200...amilton__brett_cyrgalis_and_howard_kussoy.htm


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## MickyEyez (Aug 25, 2006)

Captain Obvious said:


> We were involved in three of the seven games that the NY Post thinks were possibly fixed.
> 
> http://www.nypost.com/seven/0722200...amilton__brett_cyrgalis_and_howard_kussoy.htm


great read... I'm sure they will find plenty more.

:clap:


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## deanwoof (Mar 10, 2003)

i was at that game vs portland. amazing game. now that i was thinking about it, orlando had the lead pretty much most of the game, and a string of random calls and missed shots kept portland in the game. didnt know about the extra time added on there though for hill's layup (and if anything, i think there was a moving pick on that last play where the blazer player got sandwiched for a sec which allowed hill to get in the lane to catch the alley).


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Captain Obvious said:


> We were involved in three of the seven games that the NY Post thinks were possibly fixed.
> 
> http://www.nypost.com/seven/0722200...amilton__brett_cyrgalis_and_howard_kussoy.htm


Why would Donaghy have affected those games? It is obvious the team that was going to score more points was going to win! None of those games were even important and all those teams suxors!


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## MickyEyez (Aug 25, 2006)

JNice said:


> Why would Donaghy have affected those games? It is obvious the team that was going to score more points was going to win! None of those games were even important and all those teams suxors!


games don't have to be important for donaghy to make $$$.


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## deanwoof (Mar 10, 2003)

JNice said:


> Why would Donaghy have affected those games? It is obvious the team that was going to score more points was going to win! None of those games were even important and all those teams suxors!


and that is probably why those games were fixed - small games, less media attention/hype, less viewers, etc....


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