# OT: Watching Deng Play Tonight...



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Trade the pick.


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Trade the pick.


You are basing it after watching this game or have you followed Luol's short carrer at Duke?


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## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

Hey blinky boy, how about defending your guy


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

I'm not a big fan of Deng. He's pretty smooth, but not anywhere near the player he's often compared to in Grant Hill. Deng also has average- to below-average athleticism for the NBA three spot. Great kid though.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Yeah I've yet to be blown away by Deng. Maybe with a few extra years at Duke he could be a little better than Battier.

A lot of the highly touted guys after Okafor just aren't as exciting as last years talent.

I think this draft is going to be fairly pedestrian.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> A lot of the highly touted guys after Okafor just aren't as exciting as last years talent.


If you think Okafor is the premiere pick in this draft..... well then it just doesnt matter who else you think will be good in the draft...


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Deng never passes the ball. I don't know why but he just keeps shooting and shooting and shooting. :no:


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Deng never passes the ball. I don't know why but he just keeps shooting and shooting and shooting. :no:


Scorers tend to do just that, shoot. Cause really I do not think he is good for much else besides that, that is his only strength for Duke.


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

i swear arenas...sometimes...its like you shooting hoops in my head

i was thinking the exact same thing...like man...this kid isnt that good...kinda overrated

he hustles..yeah..but..he won't help us as much as some think...

i'm not sold


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Deng's an oddity--one night he looks like a rock star the next night, he's sweeping up elephant crap. You really have to watch a couple games to get a feel for what he is capable of... but, it's not as if the suckage isn't there. Still, if he was available I wouldn't think twice about drafting him.

I feel the same way about Okafor, to an extent. Despite stretches of absolute brilliance, I have seen him look flat out bad.

Bottom line, there is no Carmelo Anthony/Lebron James sure thing in this year's draft. The more I watch Deng and Okafor the more I am convinced Jameer Nelson is going to be picked high...


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JarvisHayes24</b>!
> 
> 
> If you think Okafor is the premiere pick in this draft..... well then it just doesnt matter who else you think will be good in the draft...


It really doesn't right now. I don't start watching College Basketball until the last minute anyways. It bores me to tears. I like to watch professionals go to work.

Why. Who is the guy to get in this draft?


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## tpb2 (Oct 23, 2003)

"Deng is this year's Anthony"  

I heard some commentators say that at the start of the season. He's good, but he's not great. He is not athletic, his ball handling is not that good, he has poor shot selection, his shot is not that great, and he's not quick. He's a pretty strong kid for college, and I guess he seems to always be in the right place. However, I dont see him in the top 10 right now. I wouldnt pick him in the top 20.


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

Deng really struggled shooting from the floor tonight. 

Somewhat off the topic, but what the hell happened to Shavlik Randolph and Chris Duhon? IIRC, these two were both top 5 players in their classes coming out of high school. I believe Randolph was the consensus #1 player after his junior year. I really expected Duhon to be a much more dominating player at the college level. Dare I say it but I believe playing on some star studded teams at Duke may have really hurt his NBA chances. Am I way off base here? I don't really watch much college basketball anymore so maybe these two are better than I think?

.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Okafor is the best college prospect, point blank. I guess you could say that high school guy is possible #1, or maybe theres a foreign player I'm not aware of. But after this last draft, I think the college game will be respected much more than the other two places to get players (foreign and high school). Melo, Bosh, Hinrich, Wade, Howard, Ford should be proof of that.

I havent been impressed with Deng either. I just dont see the Grant Hill in him. I was just watching the Duke game, and they kept saying it was his worst game so maybe thats why, but he was just backing guys down Barkley style and forcing shots and missing. He wont be able to do that in the NBA.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Okafor is the best college prospect, point blank. I guess you could say that high school guy is possible #1, or maybe theres a foreign player I'm not aware of. But after this last draft, I think the college game will be respected much more than the other two places to get players (foreign and high school). Melo, Bosh, Hinrich, Wade, Howard, Ford should be proof of that.
> 
> I havent been impressed with Deng either. I just dont see the Grant Hill in him. I was just watching the Duke game, and they kept saying it was his worst game so maybe thats why, but he was just backing guys down Barkley style and forcing shots and missing. He wont be able to do that in the NBA.


Then you needed to see the Duke-Florida State game on Sunday. He is just not that good period. He never passes the ball. 

Shavlik Randolph is a guy who peaked as a Junior in HS. Duhon I think will be a better player in the pros than college. Coach K ruined his confidence in his jumpshot if you ask me. After his freshman year, Duhon was a lotto pick, and now he is a 2nd rounder. How else can anyone explain that?


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Okafor is the best college prospect, point blank. I guess you could say that high school guy is possible #1, or maybe theres a foreign player I'm not aware of. But after this last draft, I think the college game will be respected much more than the other two places to get players (foreign and high school). Melo, Bosh, Hinrich, Wade, Howard, Ford should be proof of that.
> 
> I havent been impressed with Deng either. I just dont see the Grant Hill in him. I was just watching the Duke game, and they kept saying it was his worst game so maybe thats why, but he was just backing guys down Barkley style and forcing shots and missing. He wont be able to do that in the NBA.


I take back my quote earlier that we should draft him. I keep waiting for him to demonstrate to me even once, that he can beat his man off the dribble and get all the way to the hoop, and you know what? After watching 20 games this year of Duke, I am still waiting.:no:


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Then you needed to see the Duke-Florida State game on Sunday. He is just not that good period. He never passes the ball.


Yea, I've seen three total games from him, including two of his "worst games" and one of his better ones. Even in his better one, he just doesnt strike me as a top prospect YET. Hes only a freshman though, I hope he stays at Duke and develops his game. He could be a very good player down the line, especially with a few years in the Duke system.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> Duhon I think will be a better player in the pros than college. Coach K ruined his confidence in his jumpshot if you ask me. After his freshman year, Duhon was a lotto pick, and now he is a 2nd rounder. How else can anyone explain that?


I could see Duhon becoming a legit starter in the NBA. I still remember him in the McDonalds All-American game three point contest. His stroke was absolutely ridiculous. I don't know what happened to him at Duke. Still, he's a good defenders; good handler and floor general; and not really all that small. I agree that he'll stick.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Duhon will be in the NBDL...maybe drafted 2nd rd....


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## tpb2 (Oct 23, 2003)

After watching Duhon simply to see his skills, I think he has a shot to be a really good NBA PG. Duhon is very fast with the ball, and he's an excellent passer and defender. Also, he's quick enough to move close to the hoop for better shots. At Duke, he never really got a chance to show big time offense game after game, but it's there (even though he is a pure PG first). I think his stats at Duke may be a little deceiving. I wasnt always sold on Duhon, but he's a smart kid that knows how to run a team (he really does, this isnt just a cliche' here). That's got to count for something. I think he could be a steal, maybe like his buddy Boozer.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>tpb2</b>!
> After watching Duhon simply to see his skills, I think he has a shot to be a really good NBA PG. Duhon is very fast with the ball, and he's an excellent passer and defender. Also, he's quick enough to move close to the hoop for better shots. At Duke, he never really got a chance to show big time offense game after game, but it's there (even though he is a pure PG first). I think his stats at Duke may be a little deceiving. I wasnt always sold on Duhon, but he's a smart kid that knows how to run a team (he really does, this isnt just a cliche' here). That's got to count for something. I think he could be a steal, maybe like his buddy Boozer.


The Duke system is not good for creating pro players. It is a system built to win on the college level. Coach K uses motivational tactics to get the most out of his players rather than player development.


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## tpb2 (Oct 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> The Duke system is not good for creating pro players. It is a system built to win on the college level. Coach K uses motivational tactics to get the most out of his players rather than player development.


Yeah, that's very impressive to me - the way Coach K does things. Well, at least it's impressive in college.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Duhon will be in the NBDL...maybe drafted 2nd rd....


Completely disagree. As much as Duhon has been overrated in college, he has a very good pro game. Even at Duke, his pacing and floor vision is underutilized. I see him as an Eric Snow-type player, but with better court vision and defense.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Theres a lot of bad pgs out there who find playing time: Kevin Ollie, Kenny Anderson, Travis Best, Byce Drew, Mike James, Tyronn Lue, Milt Palacio, Jamal Tinsley. Jesus. If these guys can find a minutes theres a spot for Duhon. I'm not saying Chris is an all-star, but he does everything well and always seems to come up money down the stretch... I could see him becoming a better pro contributor then he is in college.

Just think about how much he could have contributed to a team like the Wizards or the Heat this season.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> Theres a lot of bad pgs out there who find playing time: Kevin Ollie, Kenny Anderson, Travis Best, Byce Drew, Mike James, Tyronn Lue, Milt Palacio, Jamal Tinsley. Jesus. If these guys can find a minutes theres a spot for Duhon. I'm not saying Chris is an all-star, but he does everything well and always seems to come up money down the stretch... I could see him becoming a better pro contributor then he is in college.
> 
> Just think about how much he could have contributed to a team like the Wizards or the Heat this season.


I have been saying this for years.

Chris Whitney
Shammond Williams
Howard Eisley
Damon Jones
Jason Hart
Doug Overton
Robert Pack
Moochie Norris
Dan Dickau
Jannero Pargo
Jacque Vaughn

I mean if these guys can get on a roster, so can Duhon. Man there are some crappy back-up PG's in the league for sure.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Rick Brunson.


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## Benny the Bull (Jul 25, 2002)

I haven't watched the game yet, but in all the games I've seen Deng (about 7-8 games), he has been unselfish, so to say he doesn't pass the ball is strange.

He had a bad shooting game. Judge him over other games as well.

He isn't Melo, and I don't think he is Grant Hill. I think the comparisons with Hill come from the fact they both went to Duke, and they are smart players. He plays more like Jamal Mashburn, but will likely be a better defender.

Just when we need a superstar prospect, we get another dud draft, just like in 2000.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Benny the Bull</b>!
> Just when we need a superstar prospect, we get another dud draft, just like in 2000.


Aint that the truth. Imagine if we had 4 and 7 in this last draft. We would have Hinrich and Bosh, which is a 1-2 punch in itself for many years in the future. Instead we get Crawford and Fizer, yuck. 

I would have loved to see Melo in a Bulls uniform as well, even though I really like Hinrich. I think Hinrich could be a real real important piece of a championship puzzle. Maybe we can trade the pick+chandler for a superstar? Pierce? Tmac? I can only pray...or maybe trade Chandler for one of the many solid small forwards in the league, then draft Okafor. I'm a huge fan of Tayshaun Prince, too bad Pistons would never take Chandler for Prince since Wallace does everything Chandler does well but better.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Deng never passes the ball. I don't know why but he just keeps shooting and shooting and shooting. :no:


Deng is actually an excellent passer.

Against GA Tech, he kept trying to take it hard to the hole. Usually he gets to the line when he does it, but they weren't calling the fouls last night. 

Last night's game was a poor indicator of his ability.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dkg1</b>!
> Deng really struggled shooting from the floor tonight.
> 
> Somewhat off the topic, but what the hell happened to Shavlik Randolph and Chris Duhon? IIRC, these two were both top 5 players in their classes coming out of high school. I believe Randolph was the consensus #1 player after his junior year. I really expected Duhon to be a much more dominating player at the college level. Dare I say it but I believe playing on some star studded teams at Duke may have really hurt his NBA chances. Am I way off base here? I don't really watch much college basketball anymore so maybe these two are better than I think?
> ...


Actually, Duhon was the 4th rated pg coming out of high school behind Omar Cook, Marcus Taylor, and Andre Barrett. Some rated him higher than Barrett. Although he failed to live up to expectations last year, Duhon is having a great year this year. he's not like Jason Williams in that he will take over a game by scoring, but he plays incredible defense, is a steady leader, and has hit clutch shot after shot this year.

Randolph was top 5 after his junior year, but slipped way down during his senior year. He just has to get stronger. Lately it seems he gets the ball stripped away every time he has it. His potential is limitless if he can just figure out how to play physically.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Then you needed to see the Duke-Florida State game on Sunday. He is just not that good period. He never passes the ball.
> ...


Can you please explain how coach k ruined his confidence in his jumpshot?


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

Wow, I got into this conversation late. Sorry for the multiple posts, just have a lot to say.

This whole topic is basically meaningless. The fact is Deng is a freshman with some flaws in his game. From all indications he loves college and is in no hurry to leave. If he was in a hurry to get to the NBA, he would have gone straight from high school. He's a smart kid, and he understands he needs to continue improving his game in college.

There is no way Deng leaves after this year.


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## Benny the Bull (Jul 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Truth</b>!
> Wow, I got into this conversation late. Sorry for the multiple posts, just have a lot to say.
> 
> This whole topic is basically meaningless. The fact is Deng is a freshman with some flaws in his game. From all indications he loves college and is in no hurry to leave. If he was in a hurry to get to the NBA, he would have gone straight from high school. He's a smart kid, and he understands he needs to continue improving his game in college.
> ...


I agree. To be judging a guy on one game is ridiculous.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Truth</b>!
> Wow, I got into this conversation late. Sorry for the multiple posts, just have a lot to say.


*The Truth*, where you been my man? Please keep posting on the Bulls board when you get a chance, you definitely know your stuff. :yes:


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Imagine if we had 4 and 7 in this last draft. We would have Hinrich and Bosh, which is a 1-2 punch in itself for many years in the future. Instead we get Crawford and Fizer, yuck.


Ya, Crawford sucks...


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

No it is true, that Deng doesn't pass. You may be a Duke fan, but I have watched all their games, even with ESPN Full Court. He may have good court awareness, but what good is court awareness if you don't use it.

I don't understand why some people try to spin 1-14. He has been having games like this all season. A good game here and a bad game there. And Yet nbadraft.net has him as a top 5 pick. If he is a top 5 pick, this is the weakest draft yet. Did anyone see Muhammed slamming the ball down on his head? I mean I know he is a freshman, but you are supposed to be the best freshman other than Lebron and he has gotten outplayed in the last two ball games against FSU and GT.

Oh and Shavlik Randolph, please. More Duke homerism. What more does this guy have to show to prove that he is the next Greg Newton, Chris Burgess, Joey Beard, Taymon Domalzski. Just another big white stiff to come through Duke's hallowed halls. This guy is trash. A McDonald's All American that is getting less minutes than Nick freaking Horvath, and Duke needs more from their interior. I have never seen a 6'10 guy go up more weakly and get blocked more than him. 

Please take off the blinders.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> No it is true, that Deng doesn't pass. You may be a Duke fan, but I have watched all their games, even with ESPN Full Court. He may have good court awareness, but what good is court awareness if you don't use it.
> 
> I don't understand why some people try to spin 1-14. He has been having games like this all season. A good game here and a bad game there. And Yet nbadraft.net has him as a top 5 pick. If he is a top 5 pick, this is the weakest draft yet. Did anyone see Muhammed slamming the ball down on his head? I mean I know he is a freshman, but you are supposed to be the best freshman other than Lebron and he has gotten outplayed in the last two ball games against FSU and GT.
> ...


Haha...great post.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Ya, Crawford sucks...


You said it, not me.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> No it is true, that Deng doesn't pass. You may be a Duke fan, but I have watched all their games, even with ESPN Full Court. He may have good court awareness, but what good is court awareness if you don't use it.
> 
> I don't understand why some people try to spin 1-14. He has been having games like this all season. A good game here and a bad game there. And Yet nbadraft.net has him as a top 5 pick. If he is a top 5 pick, this is the weakest draft yet. Did anyone see Muhammed slamming the ball down on his head? I mean I know he is a freshman, but you are supposed to be the best freshman other than Lebron and he has gotten outplayed in the last two ball games against FSU and GT.
> ...


More Duke haterism.

Did you not read that I said all of this talk about next year's draft is meaningless because Deng isn't going to leave?

Deng is an excellent passer, but you must remember, he is playing the power forward position right now. How many power forwards do you see racking up assists?

As far as Randolph, "white stiff" is the last thing Randolph is. Randolph is one of the quicker big men in the ACC. If you've seen all the Duke games I'm sure you've seen his crossover and spin moves. The problem is strength and confidence, plain and simple. 

I'm still waiting for an explanation for how Coach K ruined Duhon's confidence in his jumpshot.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Truth</b>!
> 
> 
> More Duke haterism.
> ...


 Yawn. All this typing and you aren't saying anything. How do you know Deng isn't going to leave? You are all the way in the Midwest. People are projecting this guy has a top 10 pick, you are telling me and everyone else that there is no chance he goes. I am not saying he should be a top 10 pick, but he sure seems projected to be one. 

Randolph sucks dude. He was a top ten HS player in 2002 and supposedly good enough to come out of HS into the NBA, yeah right. This was the Number 1 HS player as a Junior in a class that had Carmelo Anthony and Amare Stoudemire. :laugh: :laugh: 

He is going to be a bust. He is soft, just accept it. Why doesn't he have confidence? Because he is soft, that's why. No toughness whatsoever. Getting his shot blocked every single game by little guards and undersized big men in the ACC. 

As for Duhon, coming out of Slidell, LA, he was the top shooter in HS. Perfect form and textbook rotation. After his freshman year he was a lottery pick (Marty Blake said so). He came back to school and promptly began to regress to the point of being a 2nd round pick. A guy with his talent and athleticism should never be a 2nd round pick. I know the alcohol problems were also a factor but Duhon's regression all goes back to Coach K's motivational techniques over skills development. 

You can't tell me that Boozer looks anything like the same player he was at Duke. Boozer is shooting the perimeter shot, making moves off the bounce and finishing with authority. This is was his M.O. coming out of HS and yet we rarely saw this when he played for Duke, why? The guy is using more of his talents now then he ever got to showcase at Duke, other than making layups off of Jason Williams/Duhon passes.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> The Duke system is not good for creating pro players. It is a system built to win on the college level. Coach K uses motivational tactics to get the most out of his players rather than player development.


Oh, and Elton Brand, Corie Maggette, and Carlos Boozer didn't develop while at Duke? And they're not all really really good now? And they don't continue to be extremely motivated pros?

 

Duke is putting out excellent pros in the class of most other top tier basketball school (Arizona, UConn, UNC, etc). Let alone that three great pro prospects have had their careers shortened and limited by injuries (Hurley, Hill, Jay Williams). 

Yep, they just aren't producing enough NBA prospects over there at Duke.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh, and Elton Brand, Corie Maggette, and Carlos Boozer didn't develop while at Duke? And they're not all really really good now? And they don't continue to be extremely motivated pros?
> ...


DMD, you must not understand. 

When Duke players are busts, its because of Coach K.

When Duke players are good NBA players, its despite Coach K.

I've been fighting this fight for way too long.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Yawn. All this typing and you aren't saying anything. How do you know Deng isn't going to leave? You are all the way in the Midwest. People are projecting this guy has a top 10 pick, you are telling me and everyone else that there is no chance he goes. I am not saying he should be a top 10 pick, but he sure seems projected to be one.
> ...


I agree with you on Randolph. I said he has no confidence and he is too weak. My only point was that he's not a "white stiff."

Duhon's struggles last year had nothing to do with Coah K and more to do with unrealistic expectations. Look back at his stats during his freshman and sophomore years. There was no indication at all that he would be all-america and lottery worthy.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh, and Elton Brand, Corie Maggette, and Carlos Boozer didn't develop while at Duke? And they're not all really really good now? And they don't continue to be extremely motivated pros?
> ...


How did Duke develop Maggette for a year? What was a developed when he came into the league? Brand was a polished prospect, period. I should know, I saw him play on TV all the time when he played for Peekskill. Brand was always a stud. 

Okay answer me this question then, 

Are the games that Boozer, Brand and Maggette display similiar to those they displayed in the NBA? These guys had to improve while in the NBA. 

Where is William Avery? Where is Trajan Langdon? Where is Nate James? Where is Chris Carrawell? Where is Casey Sanders?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

i find all this Deng bashing laughable really. I mean, he is doing a ton more then Maggette did as a freshman and all of a sudden Deng is a bust? And I am sure all the people who think Deng is a bust really like Maggette. So whats the point? Give Deng about 2 or 3 years (itll take him about half as long as it took Maggette) he will emerge as a great pro, like Maggette as.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh, and Elton Brand, Corie Maggette, and Carlos Boozer didn't develop while at Duke? And they're not all really really good now? And they don't continue to be extremely motivated pros?
> ...


Well Mags was there 1 year...

Brand 2...

Boozer 3...

All left early...

Mags has totally developed in the NBA. He was basically nothing but athleticism coming out and now he's got it all...Coach K has almost nothing to do with his success...

Brand was going to be good regardless...

Boozer is definitely a different NBA player than he was at Duke, I'm going to agree with Hong on this one...

Duke is a place where you go and play great college ball, you're put in a system where you can be successful as a team moreso than individually.

Duhon, had he left 2 seasons ago would have been a lotto pick...

Now he's definitely a 2nd rounder at best...


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Truth</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree with you on Randolph. I said he has no confidence and he is too weak. My only point was that he's not a "white stiff."
> ...


Marty Blake said in the year 2001 after Duke won the title that Duke had 3 lottery picks. Jason Williams, Shane Battier and Chris Duhon. There is a reason why Duhon dominated on that Team USA team in the Summer of 2001. He has skills and talent. I think he has regressed under Coach K. 

I also want to know how Coach K can take credit for Maggette when he was only there for a season. I'll even give you Brand and Boozer. 

Battier is a role player. Jason Williams (I loved the guy, he was a rock at St. Joseph's (Metuchen)) but that injury is going to be tough to come back from.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> Where is William Avery? Where is Trajan Langdon? Where is Nate James? Where is Chris Carrawell? Where is Casey Sanders?


Of the guys you mention, how many of them actually have NBA bodies and NBA athleticism?

Avery, perhaps, but you can't blame his failure on Coach K.

Langdon is an unathletic undersized shooting guard with no knees.

Casey Sanders is the most uncoordinated player to ever play for Coach K.

Nate James was a power forward in a shooting guard's body, and had major injury problems.

Coach K maximized Chris Carawell's ability as much as anyone he's ever coached. Chris was a guy that did a lot of things well, but did not really excel at anything. He was a good shooter, rebounder, passer, defender, but not great at anything. He was a decent athlete, but not a great leaper and not quick.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

You know what, this isn't even worth arguing. 

I just said that Deng is not as good as people think. People were saying he was Carmelo Anthony, which is a joke. He will be good but his ball-handling needs to improve, jumper needs to improve, shot selection needs to improve and his athleticism needs to get better. 

He has a lot of intangibles, but I have a feeling that he will come out looking like Battier if he were to stay at Duke for 4 years. He is no where near the athlete or physical speciman Maggette is/was period.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> :You are all the way in the Midwest. People are projecting this


One more thing, what does me being in the midwest have to do with anything?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Truth</b>!
> 
> 
> Of the guys you mention, how many of them actually have NBA bodies and NBA athleticism?
> ...


Okay, I'll even give you all of those. What about this so called Super Six Class.

What are the NBA prospects of JJ (one trick pony) Redick? Shelden Williams? Shavlik Randolph? Lee Melchionni? Michael Thompson? Sean Dockery? 

Thank god Thompson transferred. He was getting screwed PT wise. Lee Melchionni shouldn't have went to Duke either. Why don't they ever play him. You can't tell me that a top 100 player in America can't get on the court for more than garbage time and he even walked on for a season to help Duke out. Matt Walsh was not that much better than him at Germantown Academy.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Well Mags was there 1 year...
> ...


Ah, so let's absolve Coach K of all credit. I mean, Maggette went there for only one year, so it's basically as if he didn't go at all, right? So Carmelo came into the league out of high school then?

No, I'm going to assume the one year was important. 

My argument for Coach K is actually even better served if we take for example a player like Shane Battier. This guy looked like an average college player, but improved steadily over his four years to the point where he was just about the best player in college basketball by his senior year. And he has turned out to be a decent pro who will probably contribute more on his next team where he gets more minutes. 

How one could claim that Coach K's teaching has not contributed to the career of a substantial number of fine NBA players is totally beyond me.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Truth</b>!
> 
> 
> One more thing, what does me being in the midwest have to do with anything?


You said Deng won't go pro. How do you know? What makes you so sure? I'm not saying he is going, but I'm not saying he is staying either. No one knows what he is going to do, when the green is flashed in his face.


----------



## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Okay, I'll even give you all of those. What about this so called Super Six Class.
> ...


I agree with you about Thompson and Melchionni. I thought Thompson should have played more, and he probably would be playing more right now if he hadn't transferred. Randolph was playing well at the beginning of the year, but with his recent struggles, I think Thompson would have played more.

I think Lee should play more. He should have played last night when they were struggling so badly on offense. 

As far as the sophomore class, its hard to tell. Williams will play in the NBA. Redick will too, in some capacity. Shav looks terrible now, but he does still have two years to turn it around. Dockery is a defensive role player, and will probably never play in the NBA. Lee won't play in the NBA.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Battier was a TOP TEN player in the 1997 HS class and a McDonald's All-American. He was a great prospect.

It's not like Coach K molded chop liver.


----------



## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> You said Deng won't go pro. How do you know? What makes you so sure? I'm not saying he is going, but I'm not saying he is staying either. No one knows what he is going to do, when the green is flashed in his face.


I still don't know how my being from the midwest has anything to do with it. I guess just more condescension.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Truth</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree with you about Thompson and Melchionni. I thought Thompson should have played more, and he probably would be playing more right now if he hadn't transferred. Randolph was playing well at the beginning of the year, but with his recent struggles, I think Thompson would have played more.
> ...


Of your players coming in now, Livingston is obviously an NBA player but so is DeMarcus Nelson, if Coach K works on his PG skills. He is a great scorer but he can be an Isiah Thomas type PG if he fixes his handles and shooting off the dribble. Are you confident that Coach K can do this with DeMarcus? I won't even talk about David McClure. He is a role player.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Ah, so let's absolve Coach K of all credit. I mean, Maggette went there for only one year, so it's basically as if he didn't go at all, right? So Carmelo came into the league out of high school then?


Seriously DMD, I wouldn't give any credit to Coach K in regards to Mags...

Mags has become a player while being in the league, he came into the league purely on athleticism.

He now has handles, a J, and is a lockdown defender.

The player he is today right this second, has come from his work while he's been in the league, not from his year at Duke.

In regards to Carmelo, I'm sure Boheim had some influence on him, but I wouldn't say Carmelo is the player he is today because of Boheim, that's ridiculous.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Redick is Trajan Langdon Part II....


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Truth</b>!
> 
> 
> I still don't know how my being from the midwest has anything to do with it. I guess just more condescension.


Meaning that you are nowhere near Duke and yet you assume that he is staying because you are a Duke fan, especially when there is evidence to the contrary that could influence him to come out and be drafted this year. 

You have no inside knowledge to why he would be staying other than your fandom.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Meaning that you are nowhere near Duke and yet you assume that he is staying because you are a Duke fan, especially when there is evidence to the contrary that could influence him to come out and be drafted this year.
> ...


If I lived in Durham I would still read the same publications, watch the same television, and listen to the same radio. How does me living in the midwest have any affect on this opinion?

And what evidence to the contrary is there?


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Redick is Trajan Langdon Part II....


No.

If Jason Kapono, Kyle Korver, and Casey Jacobsen can get burn in the NBA, so will Reddick. There is always, always room for outside shooters in the L.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Seriously DMD, I wouldn't give any credit to Coach K in regards to Mags...
> ...


Because Boeheim sure developed Billy Owens, Lawrence Moten, Preston Shumpert, Damone Brown, John Wallace, Jason Hart, Pearl Washington, and the list goes on and on.

Rony Seikaly and Derrick Coleman at least had serviceable careers.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> No.
> ...


Redick is Trajan Langdon Part II...


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Truth</b>!
> 
> 
> If I lived in Durham I would still read the same publications, watch the same television, and listen to the same radio. How does me living in the midwest have any affect on this opinion?
> ...


You're not close to the program so you have no inside knowledge and yet you are stating things like *Deng is staying* as fact. It's not true, he could very easily go to the league.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> You're not close to the program so you have no inside knowledge and yet you are staying things like *Deng is staying* as fact. It's not true, he could very easily go to the league.


I'm still waiting on the "evidence to the contrary."

Three years ago, EVERYONE assumed that Boozer and Williams would bolt for the league. It didn't even seem to be a possibility that they would come back for their junior season.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Truth</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm still waiting on the "evidence to the contrary."
> ...


What about Dunleavy? What were you saying when he left? And Avery, Brand and Maggette?


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> In regards to Carmelo, I'm sure Boheim had some influence on him, but I wouldn't say Carmelo is the player he is today because of Boheim, that's ridiculous.


You know whose the greatest developer of NBA tallent:

Steve Smith.

Over a 100 Division I players and 18 NBA athletes out of Oak Hill. 

Carmelo Anthony Syracuse Denver Nuggets 2003
Steve Blake	Maryland	Washington Wizards	2003
DeSagana Diop	—	Cleveland Cavaliers	2001
Venson Hamilton	Nebraska	Houston Rockets	1999
William Avery	Duke	Minnesota Timberwolves	1999
Makhtar Ndjaie	North Carolina	Vancouver Grizzlies	1998
Steve Jackson	Arizona	Phoenix Suns	1997
Ron Mercer	Kentucky	Boston Celtics	1997
Ben Davis	Arizona	Phoenix Suns	1996
Jeff McInnis	North Carolina	Denver Nuggets	1996
Jerry Stackhouse	North Carolina	Philadelphia 76ers	1995
Junior Burrough Virginia Boston Celtics 1995
Cory Alexander	Virginia	San Antonio Spurs	1995
Alex Blackwell	Monmouth	Los Angeles Lakers	1995
Sean Green	Iona	Indiana Pacers	1991
Rod Strickland	DePaul	New York Knicks	1988
Mike Jones	Auburn	Milwaukee Bucks	1988
Calvin Duncan	VCU	Chicago Bulls	1985


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> What about Dunleavy? What were you saying when he left? And Avery, Brand and Maggette?


I thought Dunleavy would stay, but was not sure.

It was no secret or surprise that Brand was leaving.

Avery was a surprise, and a mistake. I would hardly compare Will Avery to Deng. 

Maggette was unexpected, but I didn't think he ever bought into the team. The only reason he was even offered a scholarship by Duke is because Dane Fife shocked everyone and went to Indiana.

From all indications, Deng is much more level-headed than Avery or Maggette.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Seriously DMD, I wouldn't give any credit to Coach K in regards to Mags...
> ...


I would never give more credit to a coach than the player himself in terms of development. In the end, the player deserves the most credit, of course. But coaches do matter, and from what I can see Coach K has done a good job preparing any number of his players from reaching their potential in the league. 

Sure, maybe Duhon isn't currently reaching his full potential under Coach K, but you could say the same about Steve Francis under Van Gundy. Let's see how Duhon turns out as a pro before claiming the Coach K ruined him.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Because Boeheim sure developed Billy Owens, Lawrence Moten, Preston Shumpert, Damone Brown, John Wallace, Jason Hart, Pearl Washington, and the list goes on and on.
> ...


I'm just defending Coach K, who for some reason needs to be defended. I think Jim Boeheim is a great coach as well. But is Duke's list is comperable, with Grant Hill, Christian Laetner, Cherokee Parks, Elton Brand, Mike Dunleavy Jr., Shane Battier, Bobby Hurley, Jay Williams, etc. I don't get it. That's a bunch of productive pro players with some injuries thown in there. Definitely more good pro players than the Syracuse list, which is not a knock on Boeheim.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Redick is Trajan Langdon Part II...


I'm not quite sure about this, actually. Here's a perfect player to confuse me as a talent scout. He's 6'4", is not a big leaper or anything, but he's more than just a shooter. He moves very well without the ball and even slashes to the hoop some. He can dribble and get himself a better shot. He certainly doesn't have point guard skills yet.

Perhaps the best thing he could do for his NBA potential is to see if Coach K would play him at pg to see if he could develop on that front. Then he could be a top notch prospect. But I feel that he's too short with not enough top level skills besides shooting to be a starting NBA shooting guard. 

Let's say he surprised everyone and entered the draft this year. As of now, you couldn't take the guy in the lottery like Langdon (big mistake), but you could gamble and take him toward the end of the first round or at the beginning of the second.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Redick needs to brush up on his handles big time. He doesn't handle well at all.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Redick needs to brush up on his handles big time. He doesn't handle well at all.


I agree. His passing is also very inconsistent. In one game he can set up his teammates for easy shots with great passes, and then the next he will drive to the basket, get stuck, and throw the ball away.

However, he is only a sophomore and has plenty of time to improve.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

Back to the Deng topic. We don't know if deng is going to be better by returning to college for 1 or 2 more years. I'm thinking about the Duke system, I don't know if it's the best sytem to develop player. Like Maggette, will he be this good had he stayed in college? 

So my point is, drafting Deng out of his freshmen year might not be a bad idea. This is if we consider that the Duke system really is bad for developing players (I'm not saying that it is really bad, but I'm just assuming). In other word, let's not let Coach K touch Deng for anymore than one year. Let Deng be like Maggette. Let Deng develops his game in the league. Deng is a better prospect coming out of high school than Maggette.

I do agree that Deng is far from Carmelo's level. Deng won't be an instant star if he enters the league this coming draft. But his talent is worth keeping. And let's just hope he develops his game like Maggette did.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RSP83</b>!
> Back to the Deng topic. We don't know if deng is going to be better by returning to college for 1 or 2 more years. I'm thinking about the Duke system, I don't know if it's the best sytem to develop player. Like Maggette, will he be this good had he stayed in college?
> 
> So my point is, drafting Deng out of his freshmen year might not be a bad idea. This is if we consider that the Duke system really is bad for developing players (I'm not saying that it is really bad, but I'm just assuming). In other word, let's not let Coach K touch Deng for anymore than one year. Let Deng be like Maggette. Let Deng develops his game in the league. Deng is a better prospect coming out of high school than Maggette.


Why even assume this? I'm so confused. Please give me a list of players that Coach K has progressively ruined. After all, all of his players get worse each year they stay at Duke. 

Guys, nobody has gotten worse at Duke. Sometimes great HS prospects look like they're going to dominate in college and maybe the pros. You project them to get much better, but then they don't. 

Please get some good arguments people.


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## Benny the Bull (Jul 25, 2002)

I finally watched Deng against Georgia Tech and that would have to have been the worst I've seen him play all season. He was awful. Just one of those days. In saying that, it doesn't change my thinking towards him. I'd take him if he was available.


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## LoyalBull (Jun 12, 2002)

Of the recent notables from Duke, only Bobby Hurley and Jay Williams have seen signifigent struggles.

Both were rookie point guards (toughest to adjust too in the pro game) and both had life threatening accidents.

The list of notables is pretty well documented.

From Brand to Magette, Dunleavy to Boozer, these kids have gotten better at the pro level.

Battier is the only one of recent high acclaim that hasn't produced to what you would expect someone of his draft standing to produce at and that is partly situational sharing the position with Posey, Mike Miller and Bonzi Wells.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LoyalBull</b>!
> Of the recent notables from Duke, only Bobby Hurley and Jay Williams have seen signifigent struggles.
> 
> Both were rookie point guards (toughest to adjust too in the pro game) and both had life threatening accidents.
> ...


Yes, obviously Brand, Mags, Dunleavy, and Boozer got better at the pro level, but who doesn't these days? It's not like the latest generation of Dukies to the NBA went to four years of school. I think only Boozer and Battier went to school for all four years, and I might even be wrong about Boozer.

Anyhow, I don't undersand why Duke is singled out for having players that develop in the pros. Seriously, when was the last time there was a fully developed player coming out of college? Tim Duncan?

Given proper context, this is not a valid criticism of the Duke program. Still waiting for a good arguement to the contrary.


----------



## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, obviously Brand, Mags, Dunleavy, and Boozer got better at the pro level, but who doesn't these days? It's not like the latest generation of Dukies to the NBA went to four years of school. I think only Boozer and Battier went to school for all four years, and I might even be wrong about Boozer.
> ...


Yeah, Boozer left after his junior year, but he got his diploma.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Deng looks better tonight, but I'm not seeing the Grant Hill comparison...not at all...

I think he needs at least another year in college...

If we don't get Okafor, still feel we should trade the pick...


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Deng looks better tonight, but I'm not seeing the Grant Hill comparison...not at all...
> 
> I think he needs at least another year in college...
> ...


I don't think he's a good of a prospect of Carmelo right now, but I don't have a problem taking him at #2 if that's what we get. I also don't have much doubt Pax would take him after his comment about Deng. 

It's nice to see Deng face up at the 3pt line, break some ankles, and take guys off the dribble twice.


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## Scuall (Jul 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Why even assume this? I'm so confused. Please give me a list of players that Coach K has progressively ruined. After all, all of his players get worse each year they stay at Duke.
> ...


I would say that is probably the only one. Was lost in the Duke system and started to stagnate, but a transfer to Vanderbilt helped him greatly. Even Coach K was upset to lose him...

http://www.dukeupdate.com/Alumni/billy_mccaffrey.htm


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

I think he's going to be a good player, but I think he's far from being a Carmelo type player...

We need impact guys, not guys that are going to take a couple years to develop, and Deng could use at least another year at Duke...

He's not quick enough to break ankles at the NBA level, I see his game, and it's not a Grant Hill game like some people want to advertise it as being.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

Deng looks pretty good tonight. I barely watch Duke games, and when I do, he never shows up. It's always reddick or duhon. He looks like the type of scorer we need. That behind the back dribble was great!


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LoyalBull</b>!
> Of the recent notables from Duke, only Bobby Hurley and Jay Williams have seen signifigent struggles.
> 
> Both were rookie point guards (toughest to adjust too in the pro game) and both had life threatening accidents.
> ...


how soon they forget trajan langdon and will avery...both of whom dissappointed in the pro's


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

That last lay-up by Duhon shows the kind of athleticism he really has, even if he hasn't got the chance to show it while playing for Duke that much.

Just wish he was more aggressive minded when it comes to scoring. Just a little more.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

Danny Ferry (no. 2) never justified his draft position. Laettner (no. 3)

Grant Hill has also struggled with injuries.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

Chris Carrawell


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Even though he got a career high, he still didn't really knock my socks off.

Melo was so much better for Syracuse last year. From day one. And it's not like there wasn't other talented players on the Cuse.

I don't know who we should draft, but I don't expect Deng to come in and turn things around next season.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Even though he got a career high, he still didn't really knock my socks off.
> 
> Melo was so much better for Syracuse last year. From day one. And it's not like there wasn't other talented players on the Cuse.
> ...


He didn't knock your socks off?

He scored 25 points on 12-16 shooting.

He took the game over when Duke was struggling in the first half.

What does it take to impress?

I guess haters are just going to hate.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

It's not haters, you're talking about one game...

You weren't talking haters when he was 1-14 against GT the other night...

He's a little inconsistent, but he's young so that's understandable, he had a good game, but he didn't dominate, and he's not a Carmelo type player..

He's a good player, but let's not act like he has bums playing with him and he's carrying their asses...


----------



## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

*We're thinking about "the 3" all wrong*

Talk of Paul Pierce as a possible trade candidate , whilst pleasing in thought , is not that realistic 

Upon reflection over the last couple of weeks its a concept that is fraught with as much downside as there is upside 

Outside of a marquee name like Paul Pierce there has been a desire for one of the Sonics perimeter men , either Ray Allen or Rashard Lewis - depending on where your preferences lie 

There is also a loyal camp for Hedo Turkoglu in free agency , and this in isolation has its merits too.

The fervour for Caron Butler has receded with concerns over his knees.

All of these guys .. with varying degrees of chances , who may be available are all scorers 

We have our scorers. 

Our chief scorer, Eddy Curry, despite his bad rap is still probably the best big man prospect since Jermaine O'Neal , and , if this season has taught him anything let's hope it has taught him about the importance of preparation . Because with it , he does not need to breathe fire and pass bolts of lightening from his buttocks to play the role of gangsta thug.. he is too talented and will succeed anyway rather than having to overcompensate with persona to mask genuine raw talent as too many pro ballers are prone to do

Just prepare Eddy .. that's all and everything else will take care of itself 

Our chief perimeter scorer , Jamal Crawford , needs to be retained and needs to grow into the changed role he undertook this season . He is still the best long range shooting option on our team 

We need "our 3" to be a defender/scorer... a player that with Kirk Hinrich flanks Jamal Crawford at the other perimeter spot , and with Tyson Chandler , flanks Eddy Curry at Center 

The names that come to mind are Ron Artest , Shawn Marion and Shane Battier 

With regard to Ron Artest , he is a piece that is Rodman like , in that his true effectiveness can only be realised and appreciated on a fully developed team - you take a chance with him because of his talent on a team like that but on a young up and coming team with the inherent issues that it has , a guy like Ron Artest can hurt you as much as he can help you - which ultimately runs a greater risk to get the full benefit of his contributions

Shawn Marion ? Not for sale . Not even for the #1 pick I would not think 

Which leaves us with Shane Battier and the question :

* If we accept that the way to build is to persevere and build through the draft rather than upset the development of this dynamic through the trading of guns for hire ,  is Shane Battier worth a top 5 pick for what this team needs ? *

I'll follow that up with :

* Could Shane Battier be had with a top 5 pick ? * 

Shane Battier is the guy who could compete with Kirk Hinrich as being the best defender on the team and who is as adept on the perimeter as he is in taking an attacker on inside . A good passer , solid , if not spectacular shooter and scorer, here is a guy with Kirk Hinrich can let Jamal Crawford be Jamal Crawford - the player he should be . Let Jamal play to his strengths and surround him with the right balance of players . Same goes with Eddy Curry and Shane Battier together with a more mature Tyson Chandler allows Eddy Curry to play to the strengths of the basketball player he is 

So I officially go on record and call for :

1. Shane Battier and Troy Bell and Memphis's #22 pick for say the #3 pick - and with their #22 pick select Oregon's Luke Jackson 
2. Hedo Turkoglu for the full MLE 
3. Anthony Johnson for the vet minimum - assuming Jay Williams does not make it back as a Bull 
4. Eddie Robinson to be cut 
5. Scottie Pippen and Kendall Gill to be convinced to retire 
6. Marcus Fizer to be let go ( that's a given ) 
7. Sign Andre Emmett with our 2nd round pick 

*

Curry
Chandler
Battier
Crawford
Hinrich

bench

Davis
Williams
Turkoglu
Jackson
Bell

the 3'rd stringers 

Paul Shirley
Mario Austin
Ronald Dupree
Andre Emmett
Anthony Johnson

*


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Sorry, I'm not trading away a top 5 pick for a role player...

Battier is good, but he's not top 5 pick good...

I want to trade the pick away if we're not getting Okafor, but Battier's name better not be mentioned unless I'm hearing it after the name Gasol...


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## Benny the Bull (Jul 25, 2002)

I like Battier, but not a top 5 pick. If the pick was between 8-12, I would consider trading it for Battier.

I think people have come to the realisation that unless we give up Curry, or we trade our pick with Chandler, we aren't going to get a top player.

While people can say trade the pick, it depends on what the pick will get back. Last year, the 3rd pick, if traded likely gets you back a very good player, since the team with the pick gets Milicic or Anthony. This year, we will have a better idea at draft time, but with so much raw talent available, I don't see teams willing to trade future stars so they can get their hands on raw, inexperienced talent with 'upside'. I don't see any GM's doing Brand for Chandler type deals.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

No offense, but I don't think Hedo Turkoglu would sign with the Bulls for the MLE just to come off the bench. I think he would most likely go to a team where he could start. Just my :twocents:


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Truth</b>!
> 
> 
> He didn't knock your socks off?
> ...


I don't hate Deng. I really could care less about him one way or another. Which is part of the problem, and part of what I'm saying. Usually when I see a special player they will spur on some sort of excitement or a reaction one way or another...Deng is just kind of blah right now. Like I said, he was knocking everything down tonight, and it still didn't look like an absolutely dominating performance. I was more impressed with the guts and grit of Felton on the floor tonight than I was with Deng. And Reddick...wow...there's a guy I'd like to add to the Bulls with a late first round pick. Especially if we lost Crawford. He plays defense, knows how to knock down the three, hits his free throws, seems like a perfect fit for a team trying to build around a center, with Hinrich already in place.

As far as Battier, I'd rather keep the pick and just trade Chandler almost straight up for Battier. Then draft a power forward or try and sign Stromile Swift.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> And Reddick...wow...there's a guy I'd like to add to the Bulls with a late first round pick. Especially if we lost Crawford. He plays defense, knows how to knock down the three, hits his free throws, seems like a perfect fit for a team trying to build around a center, with Hinrich already in place.


Reddick is Trajan Langdon revisited...

He doesn't create his own shot, has no quicks or good ball handling skills...

Duhon makes that team go and even he will be a 2nd rd. pick at best...

Will agree with you on Felton, he's a damn player, great PG...


----------



## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> No offense, but I don't think Hedo Turkoglu would sign with the Bulls for the MLE just to come off the bench. I think he would most likely go to a team where he could start. Just my :twocents:


*

Curry
Crawford
Turkoglu
Battier
Hinrich

Crawford - 6th 

*

Hedo will miss out in San Antonio with Ginobili being resigned 

He's an MLE player 

There is 144 minutes at the 1 through to 3 spots with 4 players playing at least 126 of those minutes 

Starts Schmarts


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Benny the Bull</b>!
> I like Battier, but not a top 5 pick. If the pick was between 8-12, I would consider trading it for Battier.
> 
> I think people have come to the realisation that unless we give up Curry, or we trade our pick with Chandler, we aren't going to get a top player.
> ...


Which is exactly why with an "upside" top 5 why you won't get a supastaw but you can get pieces that help you improve and address needs as a team 

Can you deny that Shane Battier would help this team and balance a lot of needs ?

That Troy Bell could be the spark guard from the bench as he proved in his time at Boston College ?

Because so much more so in recent times the draft has become such a crapshoot with the lottery being diluted of real talent and full of fool's gold .. and with value picks that actually contribute further down the order .. I really have a tough time in a one dimensional nominal consideration of "Oh I would not trade him for #5 .. but I would trade him for a few picks lower "

I mean .. come on !

And the top half of this draft looks eerily similar to a 2000 - 2001 fusion for me - a KMart type in Okafor and then half a dozen high schooler hail Mary's 

If the league has learnt anything ( and I doubt it ) apart from the true exceptions such as Lebron James and Kevin Garnett ( who was still drafted into an OK Wolves outfit way back when ) high schooler picks need to be developed in a stable franchise where they ( the players ) are not flapping around in the flux tunnel

Battier, Bell and Jackson ( at Memphis's #22 ) is not sexy enough for a #3 pick .. but that's all that it is - lack of sex appeal and the constant stream of hope that gets further muddied year by year 

Battier's stats aren't sexy enough to deem it worthy . but I honestly don't think Jerry West would deal him anyway 

For those that can seperare the sizzle from the sausage.. they realise that Battier is a basketballer who knows how to play the pro game and just so happens to fit a need in his style of what this team desperately needs

We have our studs ( supposedly ) 

We keep saying that this franchise is on the C Eunuchs and Eddy Curry in particular .. well the more we hide them with quick fixes or chop and change with dealing Chandler or letting Crawford go because we are worried about our cap when there will be no luxury tax and we won't be a player in free agency anyway .. the further we halt their development . 

Rose was a mistake ( for all of the young players because they had their accountability delayed ) .. Jay was a mistake ( for Crawford's development ) 

You want vets .. but vets who aren't going to be your main go to guys and you want young talent but we need role players now where our needs are and where we need to fill in the holes around who we have

Studs upon Studs in a stack em and rack em pecking order .. particularly when none of them have had to earn their stripes anywhere and who frequently are more blinded by peripheral distractions which slows their development in the pro game .. is not ideal 

We've been there and done that .. players climbing over the top of each other to best their team mate ( which can be good ) but also can be disasterous on a young developing team that hasn't learn how to win yet ( see Jamal and Jay etc ) 

As to the theory that "You can never have too much talent " well sooner or later you have to crap or get off the pot - meaning courage in any organisation starts from management . Be accountable . And as it relates to the development of this team this whole throw "blender" approach has been nothing short of an unmitigated disaster.

By now you know ( outside of maturity issues and personal development issues ) who can play and who can't from a pure talent perspective . If they can't play deal them or cut them but don't keep drafting multiple young "talent " for the same position . It undermines and devalues everything ..which ultimately effects what happens on the floor 

You want a stalking horse and want to make them earn it ? Fine. Get a vet . Preferably one who isn't 83 or one that gives good head or one who isn't in line for Rotatarian of the year in their local chapter. No... get one  who is reasonably in his prime , has some modicum of talent , and who understands the pro game .. doesn't have to be a supastaw.. just a guy who understands and knows how to play pro ball 

In a draft where upside is about as far as how far you will permit your erection to project .. College Seniors who have come into the pro game or who will get opportunity in the pro game such as Shane Battier Troy Bell and Luke Jackson - all of whom have complementary skills where our team needs them could be the smartest move to make 

A line of thinking of " not for a top 5 pick " particularly in a lottery draft such as this ensures we remain the NBA equivalent of the ignorant poor ad infintim 

And unfortunately , in life , its the people who continue to gamble being motivated by hope of the payoff that can least afford it .. the ignorant poor.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Battier is worth any 5th pick we can get - and certainly in turms of what we need.
Battier is underrated badly and its better this way (West doesn't underrate him if he refused a Battier and RFA Swift for Dampier - a C Grizz badly need)
and we might get less than a role player in the 5th - a non contributer - so i'd go for him,to play some D with Kirk unlike the rest of our backcourt.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

anybody who doesnt think Deng is going to be a star given time in the NBA is off his/her rocker

The fact is, why sacrifice that for a player who can help you win a couple of games more now, such as Battier? Again, only if Kobe shows up in chicago for the MLE, is our team going to make the playoffs next year. And its not going to happen. We are rebuilding. And Deng has been damn good this year, outside of ONE game against GT. Last night, I see he was brilliant, in the biggest game of the year. The kid is just an awesome talent. He is a world better then Brand or maggette were as freshman. and since he hasnt been playing basketball for long, his ceiling is much higher. No way do you trade Luol Deng away for a guy who maybe takes you from 25 wins to 30. Thats just assanine


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't hate Deng. I really could care less about him one way or another. Which is part of the problem, and part of what I'm saying. Usually when I see a special player they will spur on some sort of excitement or a reaction one way or another...Deng is just kind of blah right now. Like I said, he was knocking everything down tonight, and it still didn't look like an absolutely dominating performance. I was more impressed with the guts and grit of Felton on the floor tonight than I was with Deng. And Reddick...wow...there's a guy I'd like to add to the Bulls with a late first round pick. Especially if we lost Crawford. He plays defense, knows how to knock down the three, hits his free throws, seems like a perfect fit for a team trying to build around a center, with Hinrich already in place.
> ...


Are you kidding about Felton? You were more impressed with Felton's performance than Deng? 

Guts and grit? The guy is a *****. Why did he sit out the last five minutes of the first half? He had a freaking BRUISED HIP. He came back in at the beginning of the second half, so why did he have to sit on the sidelines at the end of the first?

If you want to talk about grit and guts, talk about the hardest working and gritiest player in the ACC, Chris Duhon.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> It's not haters, you're talking about one game...
> 
> You weren't talking haters when he was 1-14 against GT the other night...
> ...


I agree, you can't judge him on one game. I said the same thing after the GT game.

The point I was disputing was that he wasn't impressive AGAINST UNC. I thought it was unreasonable to say that his 25 point 12-16 performance wasn't impressive.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> anybody who doesnt think Deng is going to be a star given time in the NBA is off his/her rocker
> 
> The fact is, why sacrifice that for a player who can help you win a couple of games more now, such as Battier? Again, only if Kobe shows up in chicago for the MLE, is our team going to make the playoffs next year. And its not going to happen. We are rebuilding. And Deng has been damn good this year, outside of ONE game against GT. Last night, I see he was brilliant, in the biggest game of the year. The kid is just an awesome talent. He is a world better then Brand or maggette were as freshman. and since he hasnt been playing basketball for long, his ceiling is much higher. No way do you trade Luol Deng away for a guy who maybe takes you from 25 wins to 30. Thats just assanine


You miss the point


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## MiSTa iBN (Jun 16, 2002)

Man Deng played a great game against good athletes out there for UNC. He hit an impressive 25 points against UNC, not a quiet 25. Roy Williams also said that Deng's one of the best in college basketball period, not just freshmen, so what does that tell you non believers? I guess people missed the times when he took it to the rack strong, or the time when he made Mcants fall with the behind the back dribble. He's the real deal, and I don't even want him for the scoring, I want him for his defense and rebounding abilities. He can also pass the ball, damn it's like some of you forget that he's a freshman, I remember James White being touted as a lottery pick out of High School, but he still isn't as effective as Deng on the court and he's a junior.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MiSTa iBN</b>!
> Man Deng played a great game against good athletes out there for UNC. He hit an impressive 25 points against UNC, not a quiet 25. Roy Williams also said that Deng's one of the best in college basketball period, not just freshmen, so what does that tell you non believers? I guess people missed the times when he took it to the rack strong, or the time when he made Mcants fall with the behind the back dribble. He's the real deal, and I don't even want him for the scoring, I want him for his defense and rebounding abilities. He can also pass the ball, damn it's like some of you forget that he's a freshman, I remember James White being touted as a lottery pick out of High School, but he still isn't as effective as Deng on the court and he's a junior.


Deng has the full package - maybe not a Mello type of scorer we need badly,but he does some things even better than Mello.
the thing is I'm not sure he won't return to Duke next season.
If out and available - yeah,we should pick him - but thats a big IF.
If he leaves Duke.
If we get a pick 1-3 - Don't think he'll be out there at 5th+ pick.
If we don't get 1st - where we probably pick Okafur who's just the best player in this draft IMO.

he's got some areas to improve - but i think he'd be a semi star - like a rich mans Posey,and that is not so bad........


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Where is our good friend The Truth? Deng and Livingston in the draft with agents probably going back to back. 

HAHA. :laugh:


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

:rofl:


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

IMO, we desperately need to fill one (as minimum) of two so-called vacancies (SG and SF) not just only with solid young player, but he has to be a “Gladiator”. We cannot compete in the league, without that kind of player 6’ 7-8” 220-230 lb aggressive, fearless hustler with above-average skills, who can play on both ends. I don’t see that Deng or anybody in that draft can turn to be that guy. 
So, we need to do some trade or FA or …who knows what, to get that player for SG or SF position.


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