# Merged: Tmac to Houston finalized.



## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

*Tmac to Houston finalized.*

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1825839


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

Not quite finalized, not until the expansion draft is complete.


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MJG</b>!
> Not quite finalized, not until the expansion draft is complete.


ahhh! I guess I posted this too early then, you can delete if you want.


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

*Re: Tmac to Houston finalized.*



> Originally posted by <b>HallOfFamer</b>!
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1825839


<i>"spoke to Carroll and it was not a done deal," Fried told the paper. "It's close. It's subject to a few contingencies."</i>

Those contingencies, meaning the Bobcats don't claim Howard or Cato or Mobley - then it will get done.

I don't see how the Bobcats could pass up Mobley.


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HallOfFamer</b>!
> 
> 
> ahhh! I guess I posted this too early then, you can delete if you want.


Nope, it can stay, as some of us are looking forward to any draft day trades & also to the Bobcat draft, tomorrow, right?


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## Like A Breath (Jun 16, 2003)

I didn't even know that Houston left Mobley unprotected...what's his contract look like?


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> Nope, it can stay, as some of us are looking forward to any draft day trades & also to the Bobcat draft, tomorrow, right?


Yeah tomorrow, I have no idea if its gonna be broadcasted on ESPN/TNT. It might not even be shown at all.


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## J Blaze (Jun 21, 2004)

Neither Cato nor Mobley are unprotected. I believe the trade centers on if the Bobcats select Juwan Howard. Is that likely? I highly doubt it....


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## KrispyKreme23 (Dec 22, 2003)

Magic GM = idiot


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## BBallFan (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KrispyKreme23</b>!
> Magic GM = idiot


How quick everyone is to sour on Francis. He was a lock for roughly 20/6/6 every year before the team started to transition do a different pace on offense. That the team is trying to transition to Yao Ming is because they want to develop a dominant bigman, not because Francis isn't a star as well.

Flash back to 2000-2001. Francis led the Rockets to 45 wins as a second year player. The next year, 2001-2002... the Rockets start out pretty decent before Francis goes down. They go something like 2-18 without him. Facts remain, Steve Francis is still an elite player. If this trade happened with a a 2001 Francis, would anyone have complained Orlando didn't get as close to fair value as possible for a player that's already stated he wants to leave?

That being said, I think talentwise they should be a lock for the playoffs next year assuming they add Okafor next year and stay healthy. Sadly the worst coach in the NBA might have some say it what happens for them.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BBallFan</b>!
> 
> 
> How quick everyone is to sour on Francis. He was a lock for roughly 20/6/6 every year before the team started to transition do a different pace on offense. That the team is trying to transition to Yao Ming is because they want to develop a dominant bigman, not because Francis isn't a star as well.


If his scoring ebbed, that would be one thing. Yao should have some effect on that. The fact that Francis' assists and shooting percentage went down has really hurt his value.


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## roastedtoaster (Mar 16, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> If his scoring ebbed, that would be one thing. Yao should have some effect on that. The fact that Francis' assists and shooting percentage went down has really hurt his value.


he was 9th in the league in assists. and has never averaged more or less than 6 apg. i dont see how that means his assists went down...

as for his shooting %. he had a bad year from the field. but even this being his worst year shooting wise, he still shot .403, thats still better than bdiddys, iversons, arenas, billups


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> Nope, it can stay, as some of us are looking forward to any draft day trades & also to the Bobcat draft, tomorrow, right?


Tomorrow night at 7 ET, I don't know if it's the kind of thing that gets televised or not. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens tomorrow, it should be interesting. Do you think that Charlotte, knowing what they know about the T-Mac trade, would select Mobley just so that the trade can't happen? I mean, if they feel that the trade would benefit the Magic then they should take Mobley so it can't happen, after all Orlando and Charlotte are in the same division. Do you think this could actually have an effect on their picks tomorrow?


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## Conley2385 (Sep 2, 2002)

The Expansion Draft will be on NBA-TV at 7:00 est tomorrow.


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## Kyle (Jul 1, 2003)

Francis brought up a good point by saying that "he thought they had a good thing going in Houston". After making it to the playoffs this year, it's hard to understand why they would trade Francis and Mobely for someone who has never played with Yao Ming and would have to spend a year trying to fit in with the Rockets and their system. 

If I'm not mistaken wasn't Francis getting close to triple doubles in the playoffs? What else can he do?


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kyle</b>!
> 
> If I'm not mistaken wasn't Francis getting close to triple doubles in the playoffs? What else can he do?


There's nothing more that he can do... and that's the point... he is what he is, and he's just not good enough. T-Mac can do more.


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## Kyle (Jul 1, 2003)

I believe T-Mac has been to the playoffs once and Francis has been to the playoffs once. I don't remember T-Mac nearing triple doubles in every game?


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## roastedtoaster (Mar 16, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Kyle</b>!
> 
> 
> If I'm not mistaken wasn't Francis getting close to triple doubles in the playoffs? What else can he do?


he averaged 19 8 8. 

got a tridub in game 2.


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## Kyle (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> There's nothing more that he can do... and that's the point... he is what he is, and he's just not good enough. T-Mac can do more.


If he averaged 19, 8, 8 and "there's nothing more he can do", I think I would be pretty damn happy with the effort he's giving :laugh:


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## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kyle</b>!
> I believe T-Mac has been to the playoffs once and Francis has been to the playoffs once. I don't remember T-Mac nearing triple doubles in every game?


T-Mac was in the playoffs with the Magic three times and averaged over 30 points a game each time.


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## KrispyKreme23 (Dec 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by *hobojoe*!
> Do you think that Charlotte, knowing what they know about the T-Mac trade, would select Mobley just so that the trade can't happen? I mean, if they feel that the trade would benefit the Magic then they should take Mobley so it can't happen, after all Orlando and Charlotte are in the same division. Do you think this could actually have an effect on their picks tomorrow?


I don't see why Mobley is unprotected to begin with. He has a tiny contract and is a solid role player guard. With his contract, if I were the Bobcats, I would have taken him even if these trade talks never started between the Magic and Rockets. Having a player like Mobley could be the difference between a 10-15 win season (turning fans away) and a 20-30 win season which is pretty decent for a franchise just starting.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kyle</b>!
> 
> 
> If he averaged 19, 8, 8 and "there's nothing more he can do", I think I would be pretty damn happy with the effort he's giving :laugh:


It's not a problem with his effort or his stats, it's a problem with his style of play. I'm glad you find it so funny.


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## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

Mobley is protected. So is Cato. It hinges on Juwan Howard not being picked.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Kyle</b>!
> If I'm not mistaken wasn't Francis getting close to triple doubles in the playoffs? What else can he do?


Passing it to Yao once in a while would have helped.


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## KrispyKreme23 (Dec 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by *ian*!
> Mobley is protected. So is Cato. It hinges on Juwan Howard not being picked.


That's what I thought. Espn wrote that they weren't though. They annoy me.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ian</b>!
> Mobley is protected. So is Cato. It hinges on Juwan Howard not being picked.


That is what I said.


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## KrispyKreme23 (Dec 22, 2003)

This trade is pretty much done then since nobody in their right mind would want Juwon Howard on their team. I think Francis will be better in Orlando. He plays better when he is the main offensive option as shown by his first few seasons in the league and in the playoffs this year. He's gonna need to pass to Okafor but he does not need to be spoonfed like Yao does at times. I expect people to change their opinions on Francis soon and realize he isn't that bad. He just isn't the type of guy you pair with Yao.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KrispyKreme23</b>!
> This trade is pretty much done then since nobody in their right mind would want Juwon Howard on their team. I think Francis will be better in Orlando. He plays better when he is the main offensive option as shown by his first few seasons in the league and in the playoffs this year. He's gonna need to pass to Okafor but he does not need to be spoonfed like Yao does at times. I expect people to change their opinions on Francis soon and realize he isn't that bad. He just isn't the type of guy you pair with Yao.


if Bobcats get J Howard, the gm needs to have medicine.


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>KrispyKreme23</b>!
> This trade is pretty much done then since nobody in their right mind would want Juwon Howard on their team. I think Francis will be better in Orlando. He plays better when he is the main offensive option as shown by his first few seasons in the league and in the playoffs this year. He's gonna need to pass to Okafor but he does not need to be spoonfed like Yao does at times. I expect people to change their opinions on Francis soon and realize he isn't that bad. He just isn't the type of guy you pair with Yao.


It's not Steve Francis the player that's bad, it's Steve Francis the person that's bad. For you Orlando fans out there, I really hope Francis will finally mature and play to his potential with your guys. If not... well get ready for some periodic whining and selfish poor play.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kyle</b>!
> What else can he do?


Play within the damn system and throw the ball to the potentiallly dominating, 7'6 dude sitting in the paint. 

Fine, Francis put up 19 8 8 in the playoffs. Who cares? Anyone who watched him in the playoffs knows he killed that team with his selfish and immature play. There's no doubt that the guy has the talent to be a top five player in the league. Unfortunately, he can't get over himself and play with a little maturity. I don't think Van Gundy was asking Francis to completely change his game. But I do think he was asking Francis to make some better decisions with the ball and dump it down to Yao a little more often, rather than hogging it. This guy needs to grow up. That's all there is to it.


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## Hollis (Jun 4, 2002)

Um, wasn't Francis one of the only bright spots for Houston during the playoffs? Or is my memory doing some weird things?


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## Tobias (Aug 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hollis</b>!
> Um, wasn't Francis one of the only bright spots for Houston during the playoffs? Or is my memory doing some weird things?


No, you're memory is serving you quite right. Francis played _very_ well for the Rockets in the playoffs. I was quite impressed. He nearly won one of the games for them but missed the last shot (cant remember which game). Francis is getting bashed in excess a bit here. I began to think to just get a PG and slide Francis to 2 and Houston's probs were solved. 
However, one can't deny a T-mac+Yao duo.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

People keep thinking that T Mac/Yao is going to be similar to Shaq/Kobe. Personally, I have no fear of a T Mac/Yao combination being uncontainable and they will be in my teams division.

I want even go into the fact that the Rockets will have no depth, Yao has poor conditioning and McGrady has back problems...but it's all love.

PS. However, they will be hell on NBA2K:grinning:


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## SKiP (Jan 28, 2004)

The Houston Rockets don't have a starting point guard for next year. Mark Jackson is too old and they don't pick until #56 in the draft.


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b><< SkipToMyLou >></b>!
> The Houston Rockets don't have a starting point guard for next year. Mark Jackson is too old and they don't pick until #56 in the draft.


two words: Free Agency


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Terrible trade. This is pretty upsetting. I find it hard to believe Orlando couldnt have gotten something better. And to make matters worse, Francis doesnt want to go to Orlando and we all know what a stink he makes when he doesnt want to go somewhere.

Extremely disappointing. I think John Gabriel could have made a better deal.

Unless Orlando has something else up their sleeves, looks like Orlando fans need to be ready to be stuck deep in mediocrity for quite awhile.


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## BioxHazard1 (Mar 23, 2003)

Tyronn Lue is their temporary point guard now. I doubt he will start on opening night though


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## patticus (Jan 4, 2004)

It will be very interesting to see (assuming the deal goes through) how Houston gels. Is TMac the first Banana, Yao #2 ?

Could this be the next Kobe-Shaq? (yes I am jumping the gun, but its not a stretch of a comparison based on potential)

I do believe however, that IF stevie reports to orlando (I wouldnt' put it past him to pout it out)
orlando will be quite solid if not simply much improved.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BioxHazard1</b>!
> Tyronn Lue is their temporary point guard now. I doubt he will start on opening night though


They better hope not.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>patticus</b>!
> It will be very interesting to see (assuming the deal goes through) how Houston gels. Is TMac the first Banana, Yao #2 ?
> 
> Could this be the next Kobe-Shaq? (yes I am jumping the gun, but its not a stretch of a comparison based on potential)
> ...


It doesnt take much to improve from last season. But Orlando could have been just as improved by keeping Tmac, drafting Okafor, signing a decent FA, and maybe trading Drew Gooden for a mid-level PG.


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## Hollis (Jun 4, 2002)

I'd like to see Derek Fisher in Houston...

And I think TMac and Yao can get along better than Shaq/Kobe...Tmac isn't nearly as selfish as Mr. Bryant...


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

I think that orlando is getting a better deal out of this. They get francis, cat, and cato. Those are all very good players. If francis doesn't want to stay than let that be so and trade him to a team that is desperate for a pg. On the other side houston is getting a superstar but they're giving too much for him. I like tmac but howard won't help them and neither will lue. Peace


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## Hollis (Jun 4, 2002)

> If francis doesn't want to stay than let that be so and trade him to a team that is desperate for a pg.


I don't think a team desperate for a PG would trade for Stevie..:laugh: 



> like tmac but howard won't help them and neither will lue. Peace


O contrare...I think Howard steps into the 4/5 rotation quite nicely...


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hollis</b>!
> I don't think a team desperate for a PG would trade for Stevie..:laugh:


I would if I was a GM. 



> Originally posted by <b>Hollis</b>!
> O contrare...I think Howard steps into the 4/5 rotation *quite nicely*...


I guess we'll have to wait and see about that.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hollis</b>!
> 
> O contrare...I think Howard steps into the 4/5 rotation quite nicely...


Sure he does, look what a huge help he was to the Magic this year or the Nuggets the season before that. :no:

Howard is a no-hustle, no-defense loser who always plays on underachieving teams and as long as he is a key member of the Rockets rotation then the Rockets will underachieve as well.

On the other hand, if they bench him and his fat contract, and get some nice role players, they may be a championship caliber team within two or three years.


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## Hollis (Jun 4, 2002)

> Sure he does, look what a huge help he was to the Magic this year or the Nuggets the season before that


I didn't watch the Magic much this season....but was he a starter? Play 35+ mpg? I think if he plays behind Mo Taylor he'd be decent...


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hollis</b>!
> 
> but was he a starter? Play 35+ mpg?


He was a starter and he sucked. Was part of the reason that orlando lost so many games and didn't make the playoffs.


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## Kyle (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RoddneyThaRippa</b>!
> 
> 
> Play within the damn system and throw the ball to the potentiallly dominating, 7'6 dude sitting in the paint.
> ...


Francis was averaging 19, 8, 8. If he was getting 8 assist a game that means in some games he was getting over 10 assist. He was having to get the ball the Yao in order to get assist. Francis can't make Yao make every shot. Just becuase Yao wasn't dropping 20-30 everynight has nothing to do with Francis not getting him the ball. It has to do with Shaq's defense and whether or not Yao was making his shots. I'm sure if you keep Francis and Yao together long enough the relationship on the court will evolve even more. Now if T-Mac is brought in, T-Mac has to adjust to the new system and adjust to a big man that he's going to have to get the ball to when he hasn't been used to passing up shots before.


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

Ughh. Derek Fisher makes perfect sense.

JNice knows the score. Mediocrity.

In last year's playoffs they were good enough to challenge Detroit. Then they got Howard and things went very wrong. Now they've gone wrong again, IMO.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Derek Fisher, Steve Nash and Carlos Arroyo are the only FA PGs out there it looks like.

With Nash and Arroyo staying for more than the MLE with their teams I think it is likely that Fisher might get more than the MLE from some team or even the Lakers.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Jim Gay also reported that Mobley and Cato were left unprotected.

I could definately see Mobley being picked up by Charlotte. Maybe other teams would even bribe Charlotte to take Mobley?


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kyle</b>!
> 
> 
> Francis was averaging 19, 8, 8. If he was getting 8 assist a game that means in some games he was getting over 10 assist. He was having to get the ball the Yao in order to get assist. Francis can't make Yao make every shot. Just becuase Yao wasn't dropping 20-30 everynight has nothing to do with Francis not getting him the ball. It has to do with Shaq's defense and whether or not Yao was making his shots. I'm sure if you keep Francis and Yao together long enough the relationship on the court will evolve even more. <b>Now if T-Mac is brought in, T-Mac has to adjust to the new system and adjust to a big man that he's going to have to get the ball to when he hasn't been used to passing up shots before. </b>


TMac has tried valiantly to feed either Patrick Ewing the year before, and this last season Andrew deClerq, Howard, and Hunter. That is probably why he always lead his team in assists instead of the Point Guard, ya think?

Maybe you didn't watch every single game TMac played, as I did.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Can't Payton still opt out from the Lakers? And he's going to be undervalued based on this last season in a system that fit him poorly. He might take an exception.

Also, Brent Barry will be available and he's competent at either guard position. An upgrade on Lue, for sure.


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## Ice (Jun 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RoddneyThaRippa</b>!
> 
> 
> Play within the damn system and throw the ball to the potentiallly dominating, 7'6 dude sitting in the paint.
> ...


I think he played quite well within the system. As much as he could anyway. The reason the rockets were as succesful as they were this past season was because Francis was able to atleast partly play the role that Van Gundy wanted him too. Frankly it was what the team needed and Francis was the only one able to do it. Van Gundy had him playing a role which i think totally goes against his mentality. Francis isn't a point by any means, he's a pure wing. Along the lines of a Kobe, Vince, Iverson, and McGrady. Just because he's only 6-3 and has highly developed point guard skills doesn't make him a point guard. He's a scoring guard who's a good playmaker as well but certainly not a point. Like i've said before he neither has the temperament nor the mentality to play the point. Van Gundy had him playing a role which he will never really excel at. Van Gundy though did the right thing Francis was the only one capable of doing that for his team and he did it the best he could. Van Gundy did actually improve other parts of his game mainly his defense which i think is much improved and actually quite solid. His ability to tone down his game and get his teammates involved to an extent has improved also. If this deal is really gonna go down than Orlando is really getting a player in my estimation. As long as they don't expect him to to be like jason kidd and run the show. If they let him play "his" game then i think they will be very pleased indeed!


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Can't Payton still opt out from the Lakers?


I _think_ Payton has until this Wednesday to opt out.


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## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Can't Payton still opt out from the Lakers? And he's going to be undervalued based on this last season in a system that fit him poorly. He might take an exception.
> 
> Also, Brent Barry will be available and he's competent at either guard position. An upgrade on Lue, for sure.


Payton isn't going to opt out. He'll be a focal point of the Lakers in a brand new system and make a lot more money than he would if he went to free agency.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Can't Payton still opt out from the Lakers? And he's going to be undervalued based on this last season in a system that fit him poorly. He might take an exception.


I'm not sure, but I doubt he'd opt out to come to Houston, because the Rockets are one of the few teams where he'd be even worse of a fit than he was with the Lakers. Gary Payton trying to fit into Jeff Van Gundy's system? :dead:

When you have a dominant center like Shaq or Yao you need to surround him with role players who can hit open jump shots and that's why guys like Derek Fisher and Robert Horry were such great fits in Los Angeles. If you have too many guys whose game is attacking the basket then you clog the lane so guys like Payton and Francis are bad fits for this kind of a team.

I think this is why so many people are suggesting Derek Fisher come to Houston and I think it's a great idea. Brent Barry would be a nice fit also but as old as Barry is I'd honestly prefer Fisher. Don't forget about Troy Hudson, either. I bet the Rockets will get one of these guys since they should be an attractive free agent destination for guys like this. Plenty of playing time and the chance to be part of something really special.

As for Payton he needs to sign on with a faster-paced team like the Clippers or the Warriors, they could really use him and he'd have a great year with either of them. Unfortunately I doubt they're willing to pay him what it would take so he might stay a Laker.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

I posted this in a different "Tmac to Houston" thread, but I'll post it again I guess: 

They will transform into a title contender overnight. Tmac is a better defender than either Francis or Mobley, and assuming the Rockets defense is as good as it was this past season, Tmac's scoring will make the Rockets VERY formidable. Don't be surprised if they get to the WCF next year, barring injury.

Of course, I'm assuming Tmac handles the pressure the way a superstar is supposed to. I have a feeling he will, for the most part. Though, I doubt Yao+Tmac wins the title in 2005, but I think they can get quite deep.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DaUnbreakableKinG</b>!
> 
> 
> I think that he has already opted out. :whoknows:
> ...


Payton, not Fisher.


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Payton, not Fisher.


 I know.  

I delete it.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> They will transform into a title contender overnight.


Doubtful. I probably think more highly of Yao's future than almost anyone else on this site, but he's just not there yet so unless multiple West teams have a huge and unexpected decline, these Rockets look like another first-round loser to me. Besides, their depth will be horrible and they will have no playoff experience together.

San Antonio and Minnesota should still be quite a bit better than Houston next year. Either Dallas or Memphis is going to get Shaq and catapault themselves into the elite, too. Or, if the Lakers keep Shaq and Kobe, they'll still be an elite team. And the Kings are always in the mix. I don't see Houston finishing any better than fourth in the West next year and even that is a stretch.


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## chapi (Apr 4, 2003)

if this trade goes thru and kobe and shaq stay in la it would be the worst thing that could happen to this board

20 kobe/shaq vs t-mac/yao threads after every game :dead:


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## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

I guess were finding out who the true Magic fans are (t-mac fans)


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> Doubtful. I probably think more highly of Yao's future than almost anyone else on this site, but he's just not there yet so unless multiple West teams have a huge and unexpected decline, these Rockets look like another first-round loser to me. Besides, their depth will be horrible and they will have no playoff experience together.


Their depth remains to be seen. If they pickup Fisher, I don't see depth as a problem, as they still have a nice collection of playes without Francis, Mobley and Cato. Though, Cato may be hard to replace. 



> San Antonio and Minnesota should still be quite a bit better than Houston next year. Either Dallas or Memphis is going to get Shaq and catapault themselves into the elite, too. Or, if the Lakers keep Shaq and Kobe, they'll still be an elite team. And the Kings are always in the mix. I don't see Houston finishing any better than fourth in the West next year and even that is a stretch.


Assuming Shaq is traded, and barring some miracle Jermaine/Al/Bender trade for him to the Lakers, the Lakers probably aren't going to be more than a lower seed playoff contender. That leaves Minny, SA, and the Kings. Assuming the Spurs, Twolves, and Kings don't lose any significant parts of their core this summer (only the Kings look like they'll be broken up, specifically Bojax, though maybe not more than that), I can see a Tmac-Yao team beating all 3 of those teams. Remember, JVG is coaching them and they have some great defensive players in general. With a consistent defense, an explosive scorer in Tmac, and some good spot up shooters around them (Fish, and others possibly), I can definitely see them going far. 

We'll just have to wait for the final rosters, it's a bit too early to be talking about this really.


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## Torim (Jun 22, 2004)

Francis averaged 7.6 assists, combined with *4.2 turnovers*.
He might be an exciting player to replace Tmac at least a bit, but he is one huge tunrover machine.


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## carayip (Jan 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>chapi</b>!
> if this trade goes thru and kobe and shaq stay in la it would be the worst thing that could happen to this board
> 
> 20 kobe/shaq vs t-mac/yao threads after every game :dead:


LOL :laugh:


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Francis' agent has said that if Steve is traded to Orlando, he will immediately request a trade. Who is available that the Magic could get, and who wants Francis?


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## #1SUNFAN (Jul 17, 2002)

Maybe the Clippers? Their pick and Maggete for Francis?


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

The CLippers are likely getting Ben Gordon at #4.

Nobody in their right mind would trade Ben Gordon for Steve Francis. Let alone Maggette and Gordon.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

I agree that Francis' showing in the playoffs has little to do with his value. The problem with Francis is that he is undersized but wants to play the Kobe/MJ/TMAC role. He has the hops, but he is not as good of a player as Kobe or TMAC. He is pretty close, but his size hurts him. He hasn't developed the consistenty yet, which is what makes those players so deadly. If he turns his attitude around this trade might not be so bad in the long run. To be honest, I don't see him and Mobley ever being as good as Tmac.


----------



## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

maybe a 3 way trade with another team we dont know?


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

I don't have insider and haven't read it today but I am hearing that Chad Ford is reporting that the deal is far from being completed and that Orlando is still talking with other teams..


----------



## Hollis (Jun 4, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> I don't have insider and haven't read it today but I am hearing that Chad Ford is reporting that the deal is far from being completed and that Orlando is still talking with other teams..


Could Chad Ford be trying to cover his *** because he 'reported' that Phoenix was one of the leaders, not Houston? Maybe?

And BTW, Jim Gray is making things up (again) when he said Mobley and Cato are unprotected...


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hollis</b>!
> And BTW, Jim Gray is making things up (again) when he said Mobley and Cato are unprotected...


I was wondering if that was true, because as far as I knew Juwan Howard was protected as well. Last I heard, the Magic left Reece Gaines, Zaza Pachulia, Britton Johnsen and DeShawn Stevenson unprotected. It didn't make any sense to me why Houston would leave Mobley unprotected.



> I don't have insider and haven't read it today but I am hearing that Chad Ford is reporting that the deal is far from being completed and that Orlando is still talking with other teams..


I can only hope so...*cough*_Indiana_*cough*


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## josht (Jun 15, 2004)

*Tmac sandwich*

can TMac handle being a team player w/ houston? i think it'll be an awesome aqcuisation for them, but is it what they need?


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> When you have a dominant center like Shaq or Yao you need to surround him with role players who can hit open jump shots and that's why guys like Derek Fisher and Robert Horry were such great fits in Los Angeles. If you have too many guys whose game is attacking the basket then you clog the lane so guys like Payton and Francis are bad fits for this kind of a team.


I agree, there are much better fits...I just thought Payton was a better option than Lue, if they fail to land one of those better options.



> I think this is why so many people are suggesting Derek Fisher come to Houston and I think it's a great idea. Brent Barry would be a nice fit also but as old as Barry is I'd honestly prefer Fisher.


The problem I'd have with Fisher, if I were the Rockets, is his poor defense, which is why LA thought they were getting a big upgrade in Payton. As it turned out, Payton is no longer any better at staying in front of quick guards than Fisher...but he's still a better post-defender than Fisher.

I don't know if Van Gundy will want as big a defensive liability as Fisher, especially as he's taking a defensive hit at the power forward position.

Offensively, Fisher is a great fit.

Troy Hudson is a very good idea.


----------



## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

Troy Hudson would drive Van Gundy INSANE. Even Flip got kind of fed up with him, and Flip has had Chauncey, Sam, TB, and other shooting PGs.

The Rockets need Charlie Ward. Van Gundy would wet himself if he came in and just fed it to the better players. Chris Duhon and Rod Strickland are possibilities as well.


----------



## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

*Re: Tmac sandwich*



> Originally posted by <b>josht</b>!
> can TMac handle being a team player w/ houston? i think it'll be an awesome aqcuisation for them, but is it what they need?


T-Mac is extremely unselfish, and you'll find that most Magic fans and people who have seen him play a lot will agree with me that he will play very well with Yao.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1828991



> One major hurdle to the deal -- Francis' opposition to heading to Orlando -- may be dissipating.
> 
> ESPN's Jim Gray reports that Francis and Magic general manager John Weisbrod talked early Friday morning and the Rockets guard came away feeling much better about the deal.
> 
> ...





> McGrady is still insisting he'll only sign a long-term contract extension with the Rockets. Because McGrady can opt out of his contract at the end of this season, teams are insisting that he waive his opt-out clause or sign an extension before trading for him.


Seems like strong indications that the trade will still go through. If McGrady simply sticks to his unwillingness to sign anywhere but Houston, Orlando really has no choice unless they want to lose him for nothing.


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1828991
> 
> Seems like strong indications that the trade will still go through. If McGrady simply sticks to his unwillingness to sign anywhere but Houston, Orlando really has no choice unless they want to lose him for nothing.


After all these rumours I don't know what to believe anymore... I'll just pretend T-Mac's not coming so that if he does go anywhere else I won't be so disappointed...


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

PG: Jameer Nelson
SG: Tracy McGrady
SF: Grant Hill/Keith Bogans
PF: Drew Gooden
C: Dwight Howard

Notable Bench Players:
Juwan Howard ( try to trade him)

I'd stay if i was Tmac in their easy division

or after the Tmac trrade

PG: Jameer Nelson
SG: Steve Francis
SF: Hill/Bogans
PF: Gooden
C: Dwight Howard

Notable bench players
Cuttino Mobley
Kelvin Cato


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Troy Hudson is a very good idea.


In Houston?! Another shoot first PG, no thanks.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

At this point, If we do the Houston trade, I'd look into packaging Cuttino Mobley and maybe someone else for Caron Butler. I know it's a very undersized backcourt, but I'd like to see us start Jameer Nelson and Steve Francis in the backcourt together. The rumor I've been hearing is Cuttino Mobley and Drew Gooden for Caron Butler, but that's way too much in my opinion, especially if the Houston trade goes down, Gooden is our starting PF until Dwight Howard takes over the reigns, which probably won't be this season. Assuming we can get Butler without including Gooden, I pull the trigger.

Jameer Nelson
Steve Francis
Caron Butler
Drew Gooden
Kelvin Cato

Bench: Grant Hill, Keith Bogans, Dwight Howard


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: Re: Tmac sandwich*



> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> 
> 
> T-Mac is extremely unselfish, and you'll find that most Magic fans and people who have seen him play a lot will agree with me that he will play very well with Yao.


There is a huge misconeption about if a player is seflish or not. A player considered as unselfish is when he is willing to go for winning even though when the player is not involved in the play.

I meant, there are plently of players NEED the ball in his hands will find people when he sees they are open. In many fans eyes, the player is unselfish.

But the player would be unhappy when he doesnt have the ball in his hands. And when the player is not happy with not getting the ball, and get frustarted. The player IS STILL CONSIDERED AS SELFISH!


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## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

I'm starting to get reluctant about this trade going down, Francis doesn't want to play in Orlando, and I don't think Orlando will trade a disgruntled player for another one


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>sboydell</b>!
> I'm starting to get reluctant about this trade going down, Francis doesn't want to play in Orlando, and I don't think Orlando will trade a disgruntled player for another one


I dont care if Francis is disgruntled or happy as a little kitten, I dont want him either way.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> I dont care if Francis is disgruntled or happy as a little kitten, I dont want him either way.


Well, reportedly Larry Bird's going to make a push to trade for T-Mac today, offering Artest, Harrington AND Bender. Orlando wanted Tinsley, but now that we have Nelson I think we'll be more willing to do a trade like this. We can only hope...


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, reportedly Larry Bird's going to make a push to trade for T-Mac today, offering Artest, Harrington AND Bender. Orlando wanted Tinsley, but now that we have Nelson I think we'll be more willing to do a trade like this. We can only hope...


I wouldnt mind that so much. Although if we did that I would keep Harrington and Bender and trade Artest for other pieces. Thats just me though.


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## Sir Magic (Jul 14, 2003)

> But the player would be unhappy when he doesnt have the ball in his hands. And when the player is not happy with not getting the ball, and get frustarted. The player IS STILL CONSIDERED AS SELFISH



Kobe


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Well Phoenix GM said on the radio that they weren't out of the mix for Tmac and that he thinks Phoenix is on TMacs short list of teams.

However on that show the rumor was apparent that Phoenix is not going to give up Joe Johnson to get TMac in any case and would rather drop out of the race and shift their attention to free agents if Orlando keeps insisting on Johnson, Marion and a pick.

Well looks like the Kobe race is next for Phoenix. Probably a reason they were reluctant to give up much for TMac.


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## Grant_Hill (Jun 16, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>sboydell</b>!
> I'm starting to get reluctant about this trade going down, Francis doesn't want to play in Orlando, and I don't think Orlando will trade a disgruntled player for another one


Francis talked to Weis on the phone last night and said he would welcome a trade to Orlando...his initial reactions were just caused by him being attached to Houston, since he has played there his whole career...he got over it, just like some people on this board said he would(me).


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> 
> Jameer Nelson
> Steve Francis
> ...


That lineup is awful.

There is no way Jameer is an honest 6' no matter what the official Chicago camp measures say.

Steve Francis is short at SG.

Caron Butler is a little short at SF.

Drew Gooden is a tweener forward.

Kelvin Cato isn't a true center either. And look on that bench. Grant Hill IF he is healthy, a 2nd round pick in Bogans who is average at best and Dwight Howard...

That team is still going to be the worst in the league.

But it will probably happen since Weisbrod seems to have a crush on Francis for some reason.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> I wouldnt mind that so much. Although if we did that I would keep Harrington and Bender and trade Artest for other pieces. Thats just me though.


As far as team needs go, I'd prefer just to trade for Artest, Bender and Foster. Sure in terms of talent, this trade is worse, but Foster is a very serviceable center who can defend, rebound, and occassionally put the ball in the hoop. If we get Harrington, Bender AND Artest we just find ourselves in the same situation as Indy, with a logjam on the wing. With Foster instead of Harringto, we could have a lineup like this:

Jameer Nelson/Tyronn Lue/Reece Gaines
Jonathan Bender/Keith Bogans
Ron Artest/Grant Hill/Pat Garrity
Juwan Howard/Drew Gooden/Dwight Howard
Jeff Foster/Andrew DeClercq

This team lacks a dominant, go to scorer, but Artest is capable of putting up 20 ppg, we all know Juwan and Gooden can put the ball in the bucket, Bender is a wildcard with his talent and potential, and Jameer Nelson is a good scoring point guard, and I don't think that'll change in the NBA. Off the bench we'd have some shooting with Lue, Garrity and Bogans, we'd have another wildcard in Grant Hill, who's main issue is obviously health and we'd have Dwight Howard to play the Darko role. The only downside I see to this is that Howard wouldn't play much and develop unless he plays some center, which I don't see happening right away. Maybe some time down the road, but not right away. Hopefully if we do that we can trade away Juwan Howard so that Gooden and Dwight can both get playing time and develop.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> There is no way Jameer is an honest 6' no matter what the official Chicago camp measures say.


It's a conspiracy, the people there don't know how to measure. 



> Steve Francis is short at SG.


So, he's just as tall as Mobley, who would be our SG otherwise.



> Caron Butler is a little short at SF.


Not really, and he's a good rebounding and defensive SF anyway, so it doesn't really matter what his actual height is.



> Drew Gooden is a tweener forward.


No, that's just flat our wrong. Gooden is a power forward, and nothing else. A natural power forward, can't play small forward, he's a power forward, period. 



> Kelvin Cato isn't a true center either.


Yes he is, he was playing out of position last season. He's a 7-footer, he's definitely a true center.



> And look on that bench. Grant Hill IF he is healthy, a 2nd round pick in Bogans who is average at best and Dwight Howard...


Who cares if Keith Bogans was a 2nd rounder, he's a good shooter and perimeter defender who rebounds very well for his height, and always gives 100% when he's out there. Dwight Howard, he's obviously horrible, he was just picked #1 Overall for no reason. Who's to say given the minutes of high schoolers such as, say Amare Stoudemire he won't put up decent stats? Who's to say he won't be better than Amare Stoudemire next season? After all, Amare was picked 9th Overall, Howard is #1. Who's to say Howard won't be the second best high schooler(behind LeBron of course) in his rookie season? I doubt any of that happens, but you say his name like he's garbage or something. He was picked #1 Overall for a reason you know.



> That team is still going to be the worst in the league.


Doubtful.



> But it will probably happen since Weisbrod seems to have a crush on Francis for some reason.


It's a conspiracy against the Suns I tell you, everyone's out to get them!


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## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

If we did the Rockets' trade I'd do Gooden for Butler and Malik Allen so we'd have this lineup:

Francis, Nelson
Mobley, Stevenson, Bogans
Butler, Garrity, (Hill)
D. Howard, Allen
Cato, DeClercq

If we did the Indiana trade I too would prefer Artest, Bender, and Foster. I'd trade Gooden to Seattle for Daniels and Evans. This lineup would be:

Daniels, Nelson, Lue
Artest, Stevenson, Gaines
Bender, Bogans, (Hill)
Howard, D. Howard, Evans
Foster, DeClercq

I'd be satisfied with either team.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> 
> It's a conspiracy, the people there don't know how to measure.
> 
> ...


Cato is 6'11, not 7'. http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kelvin_cato/index.html?nav=page

Butler is officially listed at 6'7 but he is more like 6'6. I know from first hand experience because he is shorter than Shawn Marion when you see them on the court together and even Marion is a bit short for a SF considering there are more and more 6'9+ SFs.

Butler measured in at 6'5 1/4 without shoes and 6'6 1/2 with shoes...

Jay Bilas or whoever it was pointed out last night that Jameer Nelson was only 5'11.
Why do you think he slipped? Obviously concerns about his size.
He must have worn 5 pairs of socks or something.

Mobley is 6'4... Francis is 6'3.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/steve_francis/index.html?nav=page
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/cuttino_mobley/index.html?nav=page

I haven't seen Gooden ever playing anymore like a PF than Antawn Jamison did a few years ago. He is absolutely a tweener. Not really a SF but not a PF either.
On top of it Gooden probably hasn't seen a shot he didn't like in his entire life.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> 
> Well looks like the Kobe race is next for Phoenix. Probably a reason they were reluctant to give up much for TMac.


And Phoenix is likely to lose that one, too, as LA is willing to give Bryant pretty unprecedented (and quite possibly ridiculous) concessions: let him pick his coach, his players *and* give him an ownership stake. If both Jackson and O'Neal are out the door to keep Bryant happy, I think LA will certainly hold onto Bryant.

Maybe LA will get D'Antoni to come to the Lakers, and buy out his Phoenix contract. They are such great friends, Kobe and D'Antoni, you know.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Well all this TMac trade speculation probably shows us something..

I don't think many NBA teams value Tracy McGrady nearly as much as we fans and media do. 
Everybody knows he is a superstar, but I don't think they consider him on the same level as some of these other guys. A while back I remember hearing some guy who covers the NBA on the radio.
He said that general managers and he has talked to don't consider Tracy McGrady close to the same level as Kobe Bryant. They all wonder if he's so good, why did his team only win 21 games last year. They also questioned his health.

If he is traded to Houston for a package of only Francis , Mobley and a bad contract in Cato it is probably proving that because I heard Colangelo himself say that he think Phoenix was on TMac's short list of teams that he would want to go to but they don't want to give up Marion and Johnson to make it happen. They would only make a good deal if it is out there.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Why didn't suns want to get Shaq?


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> I haven't seen Gooden ever playing anymore like a PF than Antawn Jamison did a few years ago. He is absolutely a tweener. Not really a SF but not a PF either.
> On top of it Gooden probably hasn't seen a shot he didn't like in his entire life.


Say what you want about Gooden, but he is absolutely NOT a tweener. Take it from me, I watch the guy play every game, he is as natural a power forward as they come. He may not be the best power forward in the world, but he's definitely a power forward, and definitely not a small forward, there's absolutely no debating that. Anyone that's watched him play knows that he's a power forward, period.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

BigAmare dislikes any PF except BigAmare.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballscientist</b>!
> Why didn't suns want to get Shaq?


Because there is no way the Lakers would trade him to Phoenix without getting Amare who is untouchable.

Do you think the Lakers would be interessted in facing a Shaq/Amare frontcourt in their OWN division?
Even if it was just for 3 years until Shaq is done I can't believe they would do it even it meant that Phoenix wouldn't be an option for Kobe anymore or they couldn't get a better deal that Marion, some fillers and cap relief.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> Well all this TMac trade speculation probably shows us something..
> 
> I don't think many NBA teams value Tracy McGrady nearly as much as we fans and media do.
> Everybody knows he is a superstar, but I don't think they consider him on the same level as some of these other guys.


If this McGrady speculation is showing you that, you are apparently ignorant of a rather important fact: McGrady is a free agent after next season. Which means, unless he offers to sign an extension with the acquiring team, he's a one-year rental. And McGrady has said he only wants to go to a few teams.

So yes, one-year rentals don't fetch huge prices. *One* year of Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan wouldn't fetch huge prices, either.



> He said that general managers and he has talked to don't consider Tracy McGrady close to the same level as Kobe Bryant. They all wonder if he's so good, why did his team only win 21 games last year.


Sounds like a McGrady-hater, who doesn't realize that teammates matter to winning, putting his own words in mouths of "NBA general managers."



> If he is traded to Houston for a package of only Francis , Mobley and a bad contract in Cato it is probably proving that


If McGrady signed with Phoenix, you'd immediately start up the engines on McGrady being the best player in the NBA (vying only with Amare Stoudemire, as soon as you felt he could even be argued). Since it seems very likely he doesn't want to go to Phoenix, McGrady is clearly not a very good player that no one particularly wants. Not very hard to figure out which way the winds blow with you, BigAmare.

Again, all this chill market proves is that a single year of any player isn't worth trading away a team's best players for. If McGrady were signed for the next five years, teams would be ponying up king's ransoms.


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## A Seal Clubber (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> Well all this TMac trade speculation probably shows us something..
> 
> I don't think many NBA teams value Tracy McGrady nearly as much as we fans and media do.
> ...


Sounds like sour grapes.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)




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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> Sounds like a McGrady-hater


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!


Lack of logical coherence usually signals a hater. Implying that teammates are irrelevant to team wins lacks logical coherence.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> 
> 
> That lineup is awful.
> ...


Heres another reason why people argue with you. You will constantly in arguments in the past about Amare's height being what it because he was measured at the Chicago camp, but now all of a sudden its wrong because Jameer Nelson was measured?


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Small picture but look at the difference between Harris/Gordon and Nelson alone...

I have seen Amare in over 100 games next to players who are also listed at 6'10 or 6'11 to say that Amare IS 6'10.

Lets see Jameer Nelson in a NBA game and you will probably see that he is small. Even if he is 6' that is still rather small among starting PGs.

Parker 6'2
Kidd 6'4
Barbosa 6'3
Davis 6'3
Francis 6'3
Snow 6'3
Bibby 6'1
Billups 6'3
Nash 6'3
Miller 6'2
Williams 6'1
Terry 6'2
Marbury 6'2


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> If we did the Rockets' trade I'd do Gooden for Butler and Malik Allen so we'd have this lineup:
> 
> Francis, Nelson
> ...



Am I missing a trade here? Caron plays for Miami and not Orlando. I have seen more than a few posts on this thread naming Caron as a Magicman.....so i either missed that trade - OR - people are confused.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So these guys are 1-3 inches taller so its going to make that much a difference. He heavier than most of the guys on that list and its muscle so, sorry the height wont be a defenciency


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## Hollis (Jun 4, 2002)

Who the hell cares if Nelson is small? He's a playmaker, and a damn good one at that...



> , but I'd like to see us start Jameer Nelson and Steve Francis in the backcourt together.


Ironic, seeing as how this is the backcourt I've wanted for the Rockets all year.:laugh: I think Francis would excel playing off the ball...


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Am I missing a trade here? Caron plays for Miami and not Orlando. I have seen more than a few posts on this thread naming Caron as a Magicman.....so i either missed that trade - OR - people are confused.


The first sentence of his post:


> If we did the Rockets' trade I'd do Gooden for Butler and Malik Allen so we'd have this lineup


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> The first sentence of his post:
> quote:
> If we did the Rockets' trade I'd do Gooden for Butler and Malik Allen so we'd have this lineup
> ...


Thanks for clarifying that, hobojoe. Maybe Riles would do a trade like that, as it does improve the height of the Heat.


----------



## roastedtoaster (Mar 16, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> 
> I have seen Amare in over 100 games next to players who are also listed at 6'10 or 6'11 to say that Amare IS 6'10.


amare said it himself he was 6'9"


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

Jay Williams 6'1"!!!!!! A lot of people were going crazy because he wasn't taken _#1_. People who say Nelson got screwed aren't complaining because we think he was a top 3 pick or anything, we're just saying that he was a lottery pick.

You can't tell me that height matters that much when a guy who's only 1 inch taller went second in a much stronger draft 2 years ago.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Lets see Jameer Nelson in a NBA game and you will probably see that he is small. Even if he is 6' that is still rather small among starting PGs.


Telfair is shorter. He is a high schooler without a jumpshot. He went before the college player of the year. It's not about size.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>roastedtoaster</b>!
> 
> 
> amare said it himself he was 6'9"


yeah without shoes


----------



## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> Jay Williams 6'1"!!!!!! A lot of people were going crazy because he wasn't taken _#1_. People who say Nelson got screwed aren't complaining because we think he was a top 3 pick or anything, we're just saying that he was a lottery pick.
> 
> You can't tell me that height matters that much when a guy who's only 1 inch taller went second in a much stronger draft 2 years ago.


What are you talking about?

People were going crazy over the Rockets taking Yao Ming instead of Jay Williams, when they already had Steve Francis at PG?

:whofarted

When was this?


----------



## Hollis (Jun 4, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> 
> 
> What are you talking about?
> ...


Lance Fabrie . Yao sucks!!*!$&!$#&!!

Oh, and welcome to the board Pan Mengtu. Finally someone with a little sense


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

Can someone explain to me why this thread exists? I can't figure it out myself. There has been no finalizing going on.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> Can someone explain to me why this thread exists? I can't figure it out myself. There has been no finalizing going on.


I can, for the homers like you? Sorry, am I too "straight" here?


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

I have no idea what the hell you just said. Can you repeat that? In English this time? If you wanna call me a homer, go ahead. That's what I am. That's what every sports fan should be. If you don't root for your home team and ONLY your home team, there's something wrong with you.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> I have no idea what the hell you just said. Can you repeat that? In English this time? If you wanna call me a homer, go ahead. That's what I am. That's what every sports fan should be. If you don't root for your home team and ONLY your home team, there's something wrong with you.


okay okay, you win. But T-mac will not stay in Magic next year. hahah. Want to hit my face?***Edited***


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> okay okay, you win. But T-mac will not stay in Magic next year. hahah. Want to hit my face? ***Edited***


Can you say... BAN?


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> 
> 
> Can you say... BAN?


Why ban?
I just let my frustrations out. I mean, I asked if he wanted to hit me. it's not like I am insulting him in words. And I simply told him to hit himself because we are too physically far apart from each other.


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## RunToFreeForFly (Jul 16, 2003)

John to the world, and all these crap, and all, racing.


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> Why ban?





> Originally posted by <b>John</b>
> 
> ***Edited***


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## roastedtoaster (Mar 16, 2004)

trade will be announced tommorrow. courtesy of cf.net's best insider.


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## Grant_Hill (Jun 16, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>RunToFreeForFly</b>!
> John to the world, and all these crap, and all, racing.


Agreed.


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>roastedtoaster</b>!
> trade will be announced tommorrow. courtesy of cf.net's best insider.


Okayyyyyy "In lil john's voice"


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Grant_Hill</b>!
> 
> 
> Agreed.


\


Grant Hill, You sux, as a player I meant.


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> 
> 
> Okayyyyyy "In lil john's voice"


Yeeeaaaahhh.


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## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

Deal done


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## J Blaze (Jun 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>NYKBaller</b>!
> Deal done


Can you say FINALLY! I'll believe it when I see it announced on ESPN tho because we've all seen articles like this one before. But if it IS true then.....:clap:


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

*Washington Post: T-Mac/Francis is done deal*

The prospect of playing alongside high school star Dwight Howard and an easier road to the playoffs were enough to persuade Houston Rockets guard Steve Francis to drop his objections to a trade that would send him to the Orlando Magic for NBA leading scorer Tracy McGrady, according to his agent.

The Magic is expected to announce the trade, which was held up a week after Francis balked at playing for the last-place team, on Wednesday, according to a source with knowledge of the deal. Francis, a three-time all-star, is flying to Orlando today to meet with the Magic's management, including President John Weisbrod, the man who persuaded Francis to move to Orlando.

Under the terms of the trade, the Magic will send guard McGrady, forward Juwan Howard and guard Tyronn Lue to the Rockets for Francis, guard Cuttino Mobley and center Kelvin Cato, said the source.

Upon hearing news of the pending trade, Francis initially said he disliked the idea of playing for a team that was rebuilding. His representatives began making inquiries about which teams would be interested in swapping for Francis in the event he was traded to the Magic.

But in a Thursday-night phone conversation, Weisbrod sold Francis on the team's draft acquisitions, playoff chances and appreciation of his talents, according to Jeff Fried, Francis's agent.

"They could have got anyone for Tracy McGrady," Fried said. "That impressed Steve about how highly the Magic thought of him."

McGrady finished this past season with a 28-point scoring average, tops in the NBA, and Francis averaged 16.6 points, 5.5 rebounds and 6.2 assists to join Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson and Grant Hill as the only players in NBA history to average at least 15 points, 5 rebounds and 5 assists in each of their first five seasons.

Francis, an all-American at the University of Maryland, also was impressed with the players Orlando has obtained since the end of last season.

The Magic chose Atlanta high school sensation Howard, a 6-11 power forward, with the first pick in the draft. Scouts say Howard, a skilled scorer, shot blocker and rebounder, has the talent to become an NBA star.

The Magic also obtained St Joseph's guard Jameer Nelson, the NCAA's player of the year last season, from the Denver Nuggets.

The addition of Francis, Howard and Nelson could help the team compete in the realigned NBA next season. The Magic will be in the same division, what many predict will be the league's weakest, with the Washington Wizards, Miami Heat, Atlanta Hawks and expansion Charlotte Bobcats.

Of the five teams, only the Heat made the playoffs last season.


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

*MAGIC and Rockets trade:: Who got the better deal?*

Orlando 
T Mac 
Howard 
Lue
Gaines 

Houston 
Francis 
Mobley 
Cato 

_______________________________________________

The only positive thing about this trade from my standpoint is that we got rid of the hidden 'worst 2 players on our team'...tyron lue and juwan howard.

Tmac>francis as a star by far
Mobely/Cato>Howard/lue/gaines

I guess it works good for both teams..but who do you think got the better deal. I just want to know if I'm the only one who thinks the Magic got robbed?

I am really hoping that a 3rd team is involved and we ship gooden/mobely/cato out to make this trade worth it.


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## Kunlun (Jun 22, 2003)

Did this trade officially go down already?


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>KL Dawger</b>!
> Did this trade officially go down already?


basically..local sports radio reporting its sealed... most likely announced tomorrow :yes:

at least now us magic fans know our roster...unless they have more trades after this one..which I hope they do


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>KL Dawger</b>!
> Did this trade officially go down already?


Not technically I don't think, but it's been agreed to and there's supposed to be a press conference possibly tomorrow to announce it.


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## roastedtoaster (Mar 16, 2004)

orlando didnt get shafted. they got a couple solid players and 1 allstar in return. however, as in most cases with trades, the team that got the best player usually the winner.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

my one vote:

50% on 1
50% on 2


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## thrillhouse (Apr 18, 2003)

i dont think orlando got screwed, but i think there were better deals out there


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

> MAGIC and Rockets trade:: Who got the better deal?


The team that got T-Mac!!!


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Now on the front page of NBA.com

JVG is going to love choosing between the 2 underperforming former Wolverines to start next to Yao.


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## Ghost (Jun 21, 2002)

Houston Rockets got a more verstile Kobe and Shaq


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## Ice Nine (Apr 3, 2004)

Orlando got robbed. Especially if Indiana was really offering Artest, Harrington, & Bender...


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

right now the voting is 18 for the Rockets, 1 for Orlando. 

who the hell voted for Orlando? 

they could've got so much more.


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## Sir Magic (Jul 14, 2003)

*Tmac is in Houston, how would the future of the rockets be?*

Now tmac is in houston with ming how will this workout during the regular season and in if possible the playoffs


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Chad Ford on Insider:

_If you're the Rockets, how do you counter the dynamic duo of the best center and best two guard in the league -- Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant?

You get the league's *second best* at each position and hope like hell the Lakers implode. It looks like the Rockets are set on both fronts._ 

Well, it looks like we know Chad Ford's stance on Kobe/T-Mac. 

Great trade for Houston, I very much look forward to seeing how Yao Ming and Tracy McGrady play together. When Kobe re-signs, it'll be Kobe vs. T-Mac 4 times a year!:yes:


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

They are too young.
Yao, 23 years old
T-Mac 25 in May

Step 2: find a FA point guard

Step 3: trade for a PF (J Howard is not that bad)


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> Great trade for Houston, I very much look forward to seeing how Yao Ming and Tracy McGrady play together. When Kobe re-signs, it'll be Kobe vs. T-Mac 4 times a year!:yes:


Kobe doesn't resign but it will still be Kobe vs TMac 4 times a year.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe doesn't resign but it will still be Kobe vs TMac 4 times a year.


Haha, I knew you would say that.

But yeah, I don't see T-Mac and Yao being TOP contenders next year, maybe not even the year after that. However, they should be poised to make a title run pretty soon. I still think they're missing key components of a championship team.

1) Veteran leadership from guys who have won titles before
2) Starting PG
3) Good bench

They certainly have the one-two punch and a few other nice role players (Jim Jackson, Juwan Howard, Maurice Taylor). Their future success could also depend on the development of Bostjan Nachbar and Reece Gaines.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Put Nash there, they will be immidiate title contender.

Nash is FA.


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## jdg (Jun 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballscientist</b>!
> They are too young.
> Yao, 23 years old
> T-Mac 25 in May
> ...


Tracy can play some point forward in my opinion. Tyronn Lue might even work out as their starting PG, although I would probably agree they need some upgrading in that area.

Past Yao and TMac, this team is in desparate need of some size. tyhey don't got anyone over 6'9 except for Yao...


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## vadimivich (Mar 29, 2004)

> (J Howard is not that bad)


I can't believe someone just seriously posted this.

Yes, he is THAT bad, and even worse ...


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## Hollis (Jun 4, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballscientist</b>!
> Put Nash there, they will be immidiate title contender.
> 
> Nash is FA.


I like the way you think.


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## Hollis (Jun 4, 2002)

Oh come on it's not THAT bad...you've got 2 guards that are capable of scoring 20 a night and a Center who will probably make the damn All-Star team...:angel:


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

orlando DID get robbed because shawn marion, joe johnson and #whatever pick from phoenix was an infinitely better deal.


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## Hollis (Jun 4, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> orlando DID get robbed because shawn marion, joe johnson and #whatever pick from phoenix was an infinitely better deal.


That's a better deal but it wasn't offered!


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## kg_mvp03-04 (Jul 24, 2003)

THe magics gm is a friggin moron, this trade was a ripp off for orlando, Francis is a crybaby ballhog, cato is decent and mobley is decent. The magic should of waited to see if there were any batter deals out there. the magic should of at least pryed some draft picks out of houston.


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## CP26 (May 8, 2003)

When I saw the Washington I was thinking Arenas for Francis deal done :|


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## vadimivich (Mar 29, 2004)

The only one screwed in all this is Howard ... he gets to play the post with Francis and Mobley the two biggest gunners in the league.

Francis is actually a nice player if he's going to play SG, but by shipping him and Mobley (who's overated as all hell as a starter) they've pretty much guarenteed he's going to play a lot of point again. Unless they play Nelson at PG and Francis at SG and Mobley as 6th man, Orlando is basically Houston of the past several years and that team sucked.

And if that Indiana rumor was for real, the Orlando GM needs to be shot for taking this pile of poop instead.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> orlando DID get robbed because shawn marion, joe johnson and #whatever pick from phoenix was an infinitely better deal.


It wasn't on the table. They offered Marion, Jacobsen and #7. Still a lot better than the 3 Rockets outcasts imo.

But obviously the hockey guy has some sort of fascination with Francis...


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kg_mvp03-04</b>!
> THe magics gm is a friggin moron, this trade was a ripp off for orlando, Francis is a crybaby ballhog, cato is decent and mobley is decent. The magic should of waited to see if there were any batter deals out there. the magic should of at least pryed some draft picks out of houston.


I couldn't have said it better.


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

I have always liked TMac's game, from the first time I saw him in Toronto in a game against the Suns. He came in off the bench, blocked a shot, got an assist, then a steal, and a bucket, all in the first 2/3 minutes.

Houston has a great coach and a true center, now they have a true swing man who won't have to lead his team in assists, along with scoring, not to mention, rebounds in more games than a sg should be expected to rebound.

Orlando has their pg of the future, and Stevie will make a good eastern shooting guard.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

I think the deal works out in the end for both teams.

Orlando will get rid of Juwan, freeing up more time for Gooden and Howard. They get rid of Gaines who was a failure, they no longer wanted, and probably wasnt going to play anyway. And they get rid of Lue who was a failure as well.

Orlando loses Tmac, a superstar and top 5 player, but should come out with a much deeper and more balanced team.

And Tmac gets to go where he wants and gets to team up with Yao which should be very interesting.

I think a lot of the deals people say were "better" werent necessarily ever offered, including the Phoenix and Indiana deals. And if what is reported is true, that Tmac said he will only re-sign in Houston, then Orlando really didnt have much choice than to deal with Houston.

This is a rare deal that, in the end, could work out well for both teams.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

people saying the magic got screwed should remember how bad they were last year. howard's trade value was negative, and lue is a negative.

the downside of this is that they really didn't get much better on the boards, which was their glaring weakness, although cato's an improvement, and he'll certainly improve their interior defense.

orlando got better in this deal. better than they were at least. houston wins as well, of course.

it's a win-win trade. francis will certainly have a better year than he had last year.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jdg</b>!
> 
> 
> Tracy can play some point forward in my opinion. Tyronn Lue might even work out as their starting PG, although I would probably agree they need some upgrading in that area.
> ...


I've read that the Rockets will try and get Eric Snow. He'd be the perfect Van Gundy PG for that team. They would be pretty good defensively with Snow, Tmac, Jackson, and Yao on the court ... unfortunately it looks like they'll have Juwan the Matador starting at PF, which they will need to upgrade to be a really good team.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> Chad Ford on Insider:
> 
> _If you're the Rockets, how do you counter the dynamic duo of the best center and best two guard in the league -- Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant?
> ...


Thats great Ford has a stance on Tmac/Kobe. Now that Tmac looks to be going to a much better team/coach and Kobe is looking to be sans Shaq, this just might be the year where all the Kobe lovers are proven wrong.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> people saying the magic got screwed should remember how bad they were last year. howard's trade value was negative, and lue is a negative.
> 
> the downside of this is that they really didn't get much better on the boards, which was their glaring weakness, although cato's an improvement, and he'll certainly improve their interior defense.
> ...


Very true. Howard and Lue can be looked at as negatives, as jut throw ins. And maybe Houston believes in Gaines, but after his first season, not many others probably would.

Orlando didnt get too much better rebounding, *but*, that being said, Cato will still probably be the best center Orlando has had since Shaq left as average a player as he is. And there will be more PT for Drew Gooden and the additions of Howard and Varejao could be good. Their frontcourt at least has the potential to be much better.


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

Whoever got Tmac is the one that gets the better deal.

damn sad to see another great SG go to the West.

now Kobe and Tmac are going to play together in the allstars game.


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MiamiHeat03</b>!
> Whoever got Tmac is the one that gets the better deal.
> 
> damn sad to see another great SG go to the West.
> ...


NOOOO i didnt even think of that


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## SKiP (Jan 28, 2004)

The West will be unstoppable in the All-Star game...

G - Kobe
G - McGrady
F - Garnett
F - Duncan
C - Yao / Shaq


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b><< SkipToMyLou >></b>!
> The West will be unstoppable in the All-Star game...
> 
> G - Kobe
> ...


kobe/mcgrady on the same team??? I can't see this !!! hahahaha


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> 
> 
> kobe/mcgrady on the same team??? I can't see this !!! hahahaha


That's strange, as I can see the 2 of them having a ball in the all star game! :yes:

Now, the west has Kobe, TMac, and Ray Allen. They are excellent swingmen. The East still has Vince, Pierce, and LeBron - and they are excellent!


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## J Blaze (Jun 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>MiamiHeat03</b>!
> Whoever got Tmac is the one that gets the better deal.
> 
> damn sad to see another great SG go to the West.
> ...


Wow, I didn't think of that either! Interesting it will be! (Yes, I know I used broken english there) :laugh:


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

now the west has the 3 best shooting guards AND damn near every elite power forward in the game.

the west also has the 5 best players in the NBA.


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## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> now the west has the 3 best shooting guards AND damn near every elite power forward in the game.
> 
> the west also has the 5 best players in the NBA.


and the best team in the league!

err...


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Great trade for the Magic. Not so sure for the Rockets? They still need a PG, a SF and a real PF. 

Maybe in a few years the Rockets can add the players they need around McGrady and Yao to make them into a power house.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

Jim Jackson is a rich man's Pat Garrity, he should thrive alongside Tracy McGrady. Mo Taylor and Juwan Howard are 2 of the most versatile scoring PF's in the game, and for a team struggling to find offense all last season, they will now be looking for players like Adrian Griffin and defensive FA signings to step up off the bench and make key defensive stops. 

Remember, the Rockets went on their biggest losing streak of the season when Cato was injured. This guy is going to do wonders in Orlando, quote me on that. Francis and Mobley won 45 games IN THE WEST 4 years ago when everyone was healthy, what makes you think they can't do that in the east with D Howard, Jameer Nelson, Gooden and Cato? If the Magic don't trade Gooden, he could have a huge impact coming off the bench, as he is an energy player. And Mobley was never meant to play 40 mpg, this guy is a 6th man and will become a more consistent offensive and defensive player if he comes off the bench (and Nelson proves he can keep the starting PG spot). Francis is one of the best defensive guards in the game, and Mobley can stop any guard in the NBA when he doesn't play like a bum. The Magic have a strong defensive core to work with, the only defensive liability is Jameer Nelson.


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

> Mo Taylor and Juwan Howard are 2 of the most versatile scoring PF's in the game


You almost became guilty of murder right there. I almost died of laughter!  Juwan isn't one of the most versatile anythings. Versatile isn't in his vocabulary. I'm surprised he even scores at all with that shot being so ugly. And defense? The man resembles a turnstyle. He must get real dizzy by the end of the game.

And we got royally screwed in the biggest screwing of all time, but what else is new?


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## Hollis (Jun 4, 2002)

> And we got royally screwed in the biggest screwing of all time, but what else is new?


Wait a second, according to you Reece Gaines and Juwan Howard are pretty much the 2 worst players in the league...so which one is true?


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

They had to have gotten a better offer. I think this month will be remembered later on as a month of mistakes and missed opportunity for Orlando, including Okafor.

Bold prediction: Phoenix will have a better record than Houston in 05-06.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ian</b>!
> 
> 
> and the best team in the league!
> ...


probably.


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hollis</b>!
> 
> 
> Wait a second, according to you Reece Gaines and Juwan Howard are pretty much the 2 worst players in the league...so which one is true?


Both. We could have gotten better players for T-Mac than we did, the players we sent to Houston with him were filler simply to get them the hell away from us.


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