# Payton and Walker: Oden will not help this team!



## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> April 06, 2007
> Payton: Oden no savior
> By Gary Dzen, Boston.com Staff
> 
> ...


Encouraging words from ex-Celtics.

Link


----------



## Vivaldi (Nov 12, 2006)

> according to Payton, there’s only one way to make the Celtics a winner.


I wonder what that is.


----------



## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Vivaldi said:


> I wonder what that is.


Well he continues...



> "Go out there and get some veterans,” said Payton. “If you get some veterans in here to play with Paul (Pierce), then you’re going to have a basketball team. You can’t have seven young players on a team and expect to win. That doesn’t happen. It’s just like when we were here. He had veterans and we won the division and we went to the playoffs."


----------



## Vivaldi (Nov 12, 2006)

Oh, didn't see the link.

Payton does make sense, any good team needs some veterans to keep the young guys in check. However, I think it's nonsense that Oden won't help the Celtics. You guys should go after him with everything you got.


----------



## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

Of course Oden would help A LOT but I think his point is you have to have veterans, teams that win have vets. It's true. It's time to unload the young guys that are not keepers.


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Oden is better than Paytong and Walker combined.


----------



## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Premier said:


> Oden is better than Paytong and Walker combined.



yes...but that still doesnt make what they are saying wrong...



> You can’t have seven young players on a team and expect to win. That doesn’t happen. It’s just like when we were here. He had veterans and we won the division and we went to the playoffs.


thats 100% right...hes stating the truth...just like with the clippers they hoarded top draft picks and sucked until they traded for veterans...just because its a harsh reality doesnt mean we should rag on payton and walker...they are right when they say all the celts want to do is make money and put butts in the seats...they dont care about winning games and they have proved that...there is no evidence to the contrary


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Adding Oden makes the Celtics a playoff team.


----------



## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Me: Gary Payton's a washed up, senile old megalomaniac.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Well, they're right...in the short term anyway. You have to realize players think about the "now"...otherwise T-Mac would still be in Orlando, and VC would still be a Raptor.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

In fairness to Payton & Walker they're probably factoring in Boston's resident General Mismanager. They'll have Oden in training camp, and struggle through the exhibition season, and then during the last week of training camp Danny will announce a trade of Paul Pierce, Delonte West & Minnesota's first to the T'wolves for Marko Jaric, Trenton Hassell, Troy Hudson and a conditional second round pick. All on the grounds that their games "just fit better" with Oden and Jefferson. When the team still doesn't play well he'll tell us that Hudson is poisoning the clubhouse and package him along with Ryan Gomes & Tony Allen to acquire Brian Cardinal. Then by season's end, with Wally averaging 24 points on 32 FGA/g, we still won't be doing anything despite Oden's presence. :bsmile:


----------



## Smithian (Apr 3, 2006)

ehmunro said:


> In fairness to Payton & Walker they're probably factoring in Boston's resident General Mismanager. They'll have Oden in training camp, and struggle through the exhibition season, and then during the last week of training camp Danny will announce a trade of Paul Pierce, Delonte West & Minnesota's first to the T'wolves for Marko Jaric, Trenton Hassell, Troy Hudson and a conditional second round pick. All on the grounds that their games "just fit better" with Oden and Jefferson. When the team still doesn't play well he'll tell us that Hudson is poisoning the clubhouse and package him along with Ryan Gomes & Tony Allen to acquire Brian Cardinal. Then by season's end, with Wally averaging 24 points on 32 FGA/g, we still won't be doing anything despite Oden's presence. :bsmile:


I started laughing.

Then I realized it is pretty close to what would happen if the Celtics got Oden.


----------



## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

Premier said:


> Oden is better than Paytong and Walker combined.


Not 10 years ago. Gary Payton is a hall of fame point guard who knows the game inside and out. You definetly need some veterans to have a good team.


----------



## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

Premier said:


> Adding Oden makes the Celtics a playoff team.


This perhaps could be true, depending on how ready he is for the NBA. Even Lebron James had his critics when he was drafted by the Cavaliers. Telfair (Give him a chance already) Green Pierce Jefferson Oden is a lineup that I think would work perfectly if the team had patience in them.


----------



## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Premier said:


> Adding Oden makes the Celtics a playoff team.



what...a number 8 seed in the east??? the only reason we _would_ be a playoff team is that there are 6ish good teams in the east and the last 2 spots are reserved for the teams that are 8 games under .500 and are in the playoffs by default...oden does not bring this team anywhere close to being a contender...a playoff team?? yea maybe...but we wont be close to being a .500 team and we'll get swept in the first round...there needs to be other drastic changes made, immediately


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

knicksfan said:


> Not 10 years ago. Gary Payton is a hall of fame point guard who knows the game inside and out. You definetly need some veterans to have a good team.


 Payton and Walker are fractions of their former selves.


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> what...a number 8 seed in the east??? the only reason we _would_ be a playoff team is that there are 6ish good teams in the east and the last 2 spots are reserved for the teams that are 8 games under .500 and are in the playoffs by default...oden does not bring this team anywhere close to being a contender...a playoff team?? yea maybe...but we wont be close to being a .500 team and we'll get swept in the first round...there needs to be other drastic changes made, immediately


We'll finish above .500 with Oden. Obviously changes need to be made [trading Al for a perimeter-oriented power forward, acquiring a better perimeter defender, etc.], but you're underestimating the value of Oden's defensive presence.


----------



## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Premier said:


> We'll finish above .500 with Oden. Obviously changes need to be made [trading Al for a perimeter-oriented power forward, acquiring a better perimeter defender, etc.], but you're underestimating the value of Oden's defensive presence.



no...you are overestimating the value of odens defensive prescence...at least in his rookie year...if you think oden equals a 20-plus game improvement for this team in his rookie year then im sorry to say youre very mistaken...oden is not david robinson in his prime...maybe someday he will be but next year hes going to be a rookie adjusting to the life of the nba (assuming he comes out)...he is not a 4-year player like duncan was in college...he will not take the nba by storm like duncan did either...it will take him time if he eventually does that...talk to me in 3 years if oden decides to stay in college the entire time and ill tell you that _that_ year he will come out and be an immediate force


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

With Pierce, the Celtics are a 20-25 team, translating to 36 wins over the regular season, not considering the injuries of Wally Szczerbiak and Kendrick Perkins which may add a win or two. Adding Oden to a 37-38 win team will increase the win total to 42-45 wins. Oden is already an above-average interior defender, especially if he can man the low post [which means trading Al at his highest value]. He isn't an offensive slouch either. He will be among the top ten centers in the league during his rookie season. Basically, add an '05-'06 Chris Kaman to a healthy '06-'07 Celtics.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Premier said:


> With Pierce, the Celtics are a 20-25 team, translating to 36 wins over the regular season, not considering the injuries of Wally Szczerbiak and Kendrick Perkins which may add a win or two. Adding Oden to a 37-38 win team will increase the win total to 42-45 wins. Oden is already an above-average interior defender, especially if he can man the low post [which means trading Al at his highest value]. He isn't an offensive slouch either. He will be among the top ten centers in the league during his rookie season. Basically, add an '05-'06 Chris Kaman to a healthy '06-'07 Celtics.


The injuries to Wally Szczerbiak actually _added_ victories to the Celtics total (by forcing him to the bench and a better defender into the starting ).


----------



## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

I don't know why it has to be an either/or situation. If we get Oden, I think we still have enough desirable players to trade for some veterans. The veterans don't have to be studs. Solid, smart veterans who know their role can do wonders. They just have to be healthy. We'd have to give up some players with potential, but if we improve, it would be worth it. The two players I'd really like to keep are Jefferson and Rondo, because I think they'd be hard to replace. Jefferson has proven he can be something special, and Rondo has abilities that are hard to find. I like the other guys, but I don't think what they bring to the table would be as hard to replace. I'd just be sad if Green was traded and ended up being a perenniel All-Star, but it would be hard to make him untouchable based on what he's done so far.


----------



## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

mrsister said:


> I don't know why it has to be an either/or situation. If we get Oden, I think we still have enough desirable players to trade for some veterans. The veterans don't have to be studs. Solid, smart veterans who know their role can do wonders. They just have to be healthy. We'd have to give up some players with potential, but if we improve, it would be worth it. The two players I'd really like to keep are Jefferson and Rondo, because I think they'd be hard to replace. Jefferson has proven he can be something special, and Rondo has abilities that are hard to find. I like the other guys, but I don't think what they bring to the table would be as hard to replace. *I'd just be sad if Green was traded and ended up being a perenniel All-Star, but it would be hard to make him untouchable based on what he's done so far.*


The only way for this to win is to give up some young talent. 

I could see the Celtics trading some young talent for a good PG. I also think that West and Telfair will be gone and probably Perkins or Gomes (if we do get Durant/Oden). 

Obviously this won't be one deal, it'll have to be multiple.


----------



## Pain5155 (May 28, 2006)

this is why payton and walker will never be on the management side of the nba. Oden will make one hell of an impact.


----------



## ZWW (Jan 17, 2004)

Premier said:


> Adding Oden makes the Celtics a playoff team.


*nods*


----------



## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Wow..another Oden wont come around for years. Payton and Walker obviously dont realize how rare a big guy with that skill comes around.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Pain5155 said:


> this is why payton and walker will never be on the management side of the nba. Oden will make one hell of an impact.


Payton doesn't have the patience for the other side, but Walker was always good with younger players, and convincing his teammates that they're better than they really are (the same way he convinced himself). So he'll probably be a better coach than he ever was a player; not that that would be a difficult task.


----------



## AmericanGod (Jul 29, 2006)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> what...a number 8 seed in the east??? the only reason we _would_ be a playoff team is that there are 6ish good teams in the east and the last 2 spots are reserved for the teams that are 8 games under .500 and are in the playoffs by default...oden does not bring this team anywhere close to being a contender...a playoff team?? yea maybe...but we wont be close to being a .500 team and we'll get swept in the first round...there needs to be other drastic changes made, immediately


Call me crazy, but getting in the playoff is getting in the playoffs. And why wouldn't Oden make us .500 team; LeBron is the only reason Clevland is any good and Oden will have the same impact, if not more than LeBron did in Clevland. I'll take .500 and a seven seed over picking 11th in the draft every year.


----------



## BostonBasketball (Jan 10, 2005)

Is there a reason why this doesn't draw a fine? 

I guess only complimenting obvious skill gets a fine in the nba...


----------



## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

AmericanGod said:


> Call me crazy, but getting in the playoff is getting in the playoffs. And why wouldn't Oden make us .500 team; LeBron is the only reason Clevland is any good and Oden will have the same impact, if not more than LeBron did in Clevland. I'll take .500 and a seven seed over picking 11th in the draft every year.



so that was ainges 5 year plan??? take a ECF team and in 5 years turn them into a number 8 seed??? if thats the plan then woohoo i cant wait...and oden will not have anywhere near the impact that lebron did his first couple of years...its gonna take oden a while to get used to playing with people his size and ability...lebron was just a freak of nature that we wont see again for quite some time


----------



## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> so that was ainges 5 year plan??? take a ECF team and in 5 years turn them into a number 8 seed??? if thats the plan then woohoo i cant wait...and oden will not have anywhere near the impact that lebron did his first couple of years...its gonna take oden a while to get used to playing with people his size and ability...lebron was just a freak of nature that we wont see again for quite some time


You're just the devil, aren't you? 

A month ago you said you'd do anything to just get into the playoffs, now when someone suggests it you're taking his head off.


----------



## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

aquaitious said:


> You're just the devil, aren't you?
> 
> A month ago you said you'd do anything to just get into the playoffs, now when someone suggests it you're taking his head off.



incorrect...i said that tanking the season is a joke and we shouldnt be rooting for our team to lose...

if the plan is to be a close-to-.500 team and make it as the 8the seed and get swept in the playoffs next year...which leaves us with the mid-teen picks and mediocre team as all of you hate...then danny ainge should be out the door...just getting oden or durant is not the answer...making trades to make this team better than a .500 team is the answer...and ainge is too stupid to know how to handle it...just look at his track record with trades...he'll trade jefferson for robert swift and claim that swift is our savior and we'll suck for ANOTHER year...ainge needs to be gone...now


----------



## BleedGreen (Jun 24, 2002)

This is either going to make or break our team. If ainge messes this up he needs to go.


----------



## DaBosox (Apr 10, 2007)

Ainge needs to go regardless of the result of May 22nd. Engineering the greatest number possible of ping pong balls is not an accomplishment by any means. Getting the top pick will be all well and good, however the road that got us to this point should NOT be accepted by an owner. If Danny was in any other industry he'd be looong gone by this point. It's a good thing his boss is clueless.


----------



## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Ainge did not engineer injuries to TA, Wally, over 20 games lost with Pierce etc. But the timing was fine. Ainge has overall, given what he had to work with, done a fine job.


----------



## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

sorry causeway, but there is absolutely NO evidence that shows that ainge has done anything close to a "fine job"...what he has done is turned us into the second worst team in the league...when you trade for wally you know hes gonna be injured half the season...so that is on him, when you tell pierce to sit for 20 games with a hacking cough so we can get the #1 pick that is on you as well...he has turned us into the laughingstock of the league...fine job? no


----------



## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> sorry causeway, but there is absolutely NO evidence that shows that ainge has done anything close to a "fine job"...what he has done is turned us into the second worst team in the league...when you trade for wally you know hes gonna be injured half the season...so that is on him, when you tell pierce to sit for 20 games with a hacking cough so we can get the #1 pick that is on you as well...he has turned us into the laughingstock of the league...fine job? no


This offseason will either make or break Danny's career with the Celtics, maybe not with the owners, but with the fans.

I say we give him a little more time.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I'd prefer we gave him a little more rope. And a nice sturdy ceiling beam to tie it to. :bsmile:


----------



## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> sorry causeway, but there is absolutely NO evidence that shows that ainge has done anything close to a "fine job"...what he has done is turned us into the second worst team in the league...when you trade for wally you know hes gonna be injured half the season...so that is on him, when you tell pierce to sit for 20 games with a hacking cough so we can get the #1 pick that is on you as well...he has turned us into the laughingstock of the league...fine job? no


My good friend #1AW...we've been round and round on this one. We'll have to agree to disagree (well, that is until you come around and see the light ). But yes, based on what Ainge started with, he has done at least a fine job. Who says the Celtics are the laughing stock of the league? I'd give the Knicks that title. Yes we have the 2nd to worst record in the NBA. But that is only one way to look at a team, the most obvious way. It does not nearly tell the whole picture. I would list all the positives I see but, but I've done that many times.

Ainge has done a fine job.


----------



## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

I expect the trades created by drafting Oden/Durant to bring the Celtics to the playoffs, but not either one of the young guys. A point guard sure would be nice. I can see Gomes/Perkins being shipped off depending on what of the two is drafted in green.


----------



## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Antoine's always been on crack, but hearing this from GP surprises me. How can someone say Greg Oden, best center in the game once Shaq is done, won't help a team like this?


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

David_Ortiz said:


> Antoine's always been on crack, but hearing this from GP surprises me. How can someone say Greg Oden, best center in the game once Shaq is done, won't help a team like this?


Because we have one of the worst GMs in basketball? If his last name were Pitino people would be shrieking (and justifiably so).


----------



## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

> Considering its [Celtics] long-term future when Ainge took over in 2003 (two good players, no cap room, no quality young players under 25 years-old, no chips to trade other than future first-rounders), he deserves credit for building the foundation


Exactly.


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

It is a poor foundation. Every GM will realize improvement. Ainge has not made the right moves. He has made mediocdre moves that seem to contradict each other. He has shown no aptitude for trading or free agency and has drafted well, but he has been afraid of trading away his young players; keeping them far too long while their value diminishes.


----------



## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

I'd say we have plenty of trade value right now in our young players. 



> Every GM will realize improvement.


Not true.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Premier said:


> It is a poor foundation. Every GM will realize improvement. Ainge has not made the right moves. He has made mediocdre moves that seem to contradict each other. He has shown no aptitude for trading or free agency and has drafted well, but he has been afraid of trading away his young players; keeping them far too long while their value diminishes.


His biggest problem is that he's in way over his head. He has a very poor grasp of managing the payroll within his salary restrictions, which leads to bad personnel moves. His biggest problem, however, is his belief that he's smarter than everyone else. He convinced the owners that he could turn up all stars with marginal draft picks (20-60), and confidently announced that when he took the job. And he's pretty well missed every near all-star available with his low draft picks. If he were as good as he thinks he is, we'd be fine. Unfortunately he's no Geoff Petrie. If he were aware of that the Celtics would be fine. But he isn't.


----------



## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

David_Ortiz said:


> Antoine's always been on crack, but hearing this from GP surprises me. How can someone say Greg Oden, best center in the game once Shaq is done, won't help a team like this?


Payton is the greatest trash talker in modern NBA...


----------

