# Krause says no more Hoops



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...20910bullskrause.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

What does everyone think of the article?

Personally, there's probably more involved here than two injuries in two consecutive seasons to Bulls players. There seems to be a deeper issue involving MJ vs. Jerry K if you ask me.

My two cents is that its good for the young players to play at Hoops. I would rather have our young players play in consistent pick-up games with proven NBA stars in a controlled environment than having our kids play 3 on 3 drills against the likes of Fred Hoiberg and Dalibor Bagaric all summer.

These same summer workouts w/ MJ have improved 'Toine Walkers game greatly and given young Crawford tons of confidence. Our young kids can learn a lot more from it than daily scrimmages at the Berto.



VD


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

I think there are pluses and minuses to working out at the Berto or hoops. At the Berto, Bulls players get to play and "gel" with their own teamates. Also, they have their trainers and coaches there to observe which can help determine who plays. Having the training staff on hand also means that there are folks there prepared to deal with an injury. Hoops probably has personell available to do that very same thing, but they aren't in the Bulls orginization. At Hoops players get to play against current NBA stars, which IMO can only elevate their respective games (something the Bulls could use too). Also, Hoops has referees which could actually help prevent injuries if they are calling the game right. But, players from oppossing teams get to see Bulls players and get a feel for their strengths and weaknesses, something they can use against them in the regular season.

All in all, I can fully understand why the players want to play at Hoops. Playing devils advocate for JK, I can see how he might not want someone considered his nemesis to a point getting inside the young kids heads. Also, practicing at the Berto with the rest of the team would seem to be the ticket from an orginizational standpoint.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

As I said in another thread this was a completely specious decison by Krause. 

He still continues to amaze me.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> As I said in another thread this was a completely specious decison by Krause.
> 
> He still continues to amaze me.


Specious? Stellar verbiage my friend. I like it.

I'm still in the court of the players being able to play at Hoops. I mean they are grown men, millionaires, and they should be able to play wherever they want to improve their games.

Next thing you know, celebrity fundraisers will be banned too.

Eh.



VD


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

I think perhaps we are assuming that JK is "banning" play at Hoops a little to quickly. I have never seen a statement from him trying to ban any players from playing there. It seems from the media reports that he has a preference. Trent Hassell's comments could be interpreted as a banning, or, Trent may be making a request seem like an order. I really don't know at this point. I do know that the media forms an opinion and runs with it, often taking statements out of context to support their suppossitions. Perhaps that is what is happening here.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> I think perhaps we are assuming that JK is "banning" play at Hoops a little to quickly. I have never seen a statement from him trying to ban any players from playing there. It seems from the media reports that he has a preference. Trent Hassell's comments could be interpreted as a banning, or, Trent may be making a request seem like an order. I really don't know at this point. I do know that the media forms an opinion and runs with it, often taking statements out of context to support their suppossitions. Perhaps that is what is happening here.


http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bull11.html

Another link, w/ quote from Marcus Fizer. Its a done deal folks.


VD


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## Krazy!!! (Jul 10, 2002)

I don't think that there's an issue between Krause and Jordan. More to the point is the fact that this team has over the last few years in the post-Jordan era has been besiged with injuries of one kind or another. So the fact that in back to back years we have a PG/SG who got hurt while playing over at Hoops was enough to galvanize Krause into banning anyone from playing over there.


Kudos for Krause for doing this.


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## Krazy!!! (Jul 10, 2002)

If Crawford completed his rookie season in the NBA mostly healthy, then I wouldn't have any problem with him playing with/against MJ during the offseason.

But if I remember correctly..JC got hurt the tail end of the 2001 season which caused him to miss the final month of the season (a leg injury if I'm not mistaken)...so if he was supposed to spend the summer rehabbing his leg injury so that he would be 100% ready to play the 2001-2002 season or close to it...why did he turn around and decide to play with/against MJ which further aggravated his leg injury to the point where he missed nearly the entire 2001-2002 season. Other than the fact that that experienced matured Crawford, I was pretty upset with him that he decided to say "punk it" and push his injury as recklessly as he did last summer.

And it seems that Roger Mason (from what I read) suffered the same bullheadedness as well. If a player has either a history of getting hurt or has recently received a significant injury....then it would be wise if they listened to Krause and take precautions to better take care of their bodies.

But as we all know it's up to the player if he wants to take care of his body or not. THAT'S why I support Krause.

Remember..."one bad apple spoils a whole bunch" (GOD I hate that Osmonds song).


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Great, this exact issue is what initially caused the split between Jordan and Krause. Jordan broke his foot, felt that he recovered and wanted to play. Krause, of course, knew better and placed restrictions on Jordan which MJ greatly resented. 

So again, Krause knows better than his players what's in their best interest in terms of their health and career and declares an edict. 

Personally, I feel the players are men whom such be treated as such. If understanding Krause's concern, they decide that playing at another Gym is their best chance to improve in the off-season, so be it.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> Personally, I feel the players are men whom such be treated as such. If understanding Krause's concern, they decide that playing at another Gym is their best chance to improve in the off-season, so be it.


....and they should relinquish their rights to any payment during the time they are sidelined by injuries sustained during unsanctioned work-outs.

Can't have it both ways. If they want their millions, they have a responsibility to the team to remain healthy.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> As I said in another thread this was a completely specious decison by Krause.
> 
> He still continues to amaze me.


Couldn't agree more. This is junior high Vice Principal type stuff.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> 
> 
> ....and they should relinquish their rights to any payment during the time they are sidelined by injuries sustained during unsanctioned work-outs..


First, that's not what Krause said. Rather than giving the players a choice, he dictated based upon the newspaper accounts. 

Second, is this really workable? Are the players not to work out except at the Berto? So if Rose needs to spend time in LA or Indiana, he shouldn't get on a basketball court? Does Krause need to hire 15 trainers to supervise each player?

Here's a compromise, Krause could dispatch a trainer to Hoops when one of his guys goes there to play. Nah, too reasonable.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

You know what I found to be the most humerous about these articles. The keep saying "what young player wouldn't want to play against Ray Allen and Antoine Walker." Didn't Ray Allen sit out of the World Games due to injury? Now, I realize that they probably use Allen as an example since he's played there in the past and it doesn't necessarily mean he's played there recently. I just thought it was funny.

Here's my thoughts - if the guys get injured at Hoops knowing that management aka Krause will be upset then that's a chance they take. Look what happened to Crawford last season. Had he not torn his acl playing w/ MJ I'm guessing he would, in fact, be the pg of the future. Instead he is going into season 3 with Jay Williams primed and ready to take his spot. He has yet to develop himself into the PG that we've heard he is. Had he played last season and shown flashes, Krause may very well have traded that #2 pick and stuck with Crawford. We don't know for certain, of course, but why would Krause committ to a guy who has yet to play a full season? Especially when you have a shot at Williams? Way too risky.

Mason really f'd up. He had a shot at playing which is rare for 2nd round picks. Krause wasn't rushing to sign another PG. By next season the Bulls will have another 1st round pick or a shot at a "full-boat" free agent to take his spot w/o him getting a chance to play.

I look at playing at Hoops or Rucker or any other unsanctioned game the way I look at seatbelts and helmet laws. Why give a ticket to someone for not wearing a seatbelt?We all know they help save lives. If you're dumb enough to not wear it then it's your problem. If you're dumb enough to play pick-up games w/ the bosses enemy - don't be surprised if you're traded to Utah.


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## Krazy!!! (Jul 10, 2002)

The point I'm trying to make is if young unproven players (such as Mason and Crawford) either have history of getting hurt (Mason) or are recovering from an injury (in this case a seson ending injury such as the once Crawford experienced) then they have no business risking further injury by getting themselves hurt.

The Jordan comparison is nice except for the fact that Jordan rehabbed his injury to the point where it was healed enought for him to play (so shame on Krause for not having enough confidnece in Jordan to let him play more minutes). Crawford on the other hand was STILL less than 100% when he decided to play alongside MJ last summer (so shame on JC for recklessly injuring himself the way he did and therefore retarding his NBA progress).


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## BamaBull (Jun 24, 2002)

*Is this a possible "Oxymoron?"*



> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> Specious? Stellar verbiage my friend. I like it.
> ...


While practice is good for anyone at any level of any chosen field, this line has always bothered me. as long as our World Basketball competitors will continue to prove this to us, practice is not doing any good at all when they are only practicing their dunking abilities.

Them having to be millionaires, grown men or sissies for that matter, has absolutely nothing to do with it. They are those millionaires because they are expected to perform in all aspects of basketball skills far above you or I. As I and many others have said many times already this summer, we will hold our skepticisms or beliefs of Hoops or any other similar type functions worth, after this season. 

My personal belief on this matter is, why show others what you have until it is time on the court? Why not bond, gel, get along with(or whatever you want to call it) with your OWN players? They could take this lesson from the many european players that whipped their butts like a red-headed step child so recently! 

:grinning:


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!Mason really f'd up.


Seems like Mason's shoulder could have given way at any time. Maybe it's best if he gets it truely fixed before we depend upon him in the rotation.



> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>
> I look at playing at Hoops or Rucker or any other unsanctioned game the way I look at seatbelts and helmet laws.


Krause's biggest complaint about Hoops that I have heard is that players *might* not fully warm up. Hoops has trainers and referees. Sounds like a pretty controlled envirnoment. 



> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>
> If you're dumb enough to play pick-up games w/ the bosses enemy - don't be surprised if you're traded to Utah.


Now we are getting to the real issue!!


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## Krazy!!! (Jul 10, 2002)

*Bahma Bull...*

That was a nice argument that you present. Impressive.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Bama,

You are trying to equate what went on during the World Championships to working out in the summer at Hoops the Gym?

You take way too many liberties with presenting as fact your opinion on what type of training US players are doing as well as how Euro's are training.

Lets just put this out there, MJ is training at Hoops the Gym. You want to question his work ethic? Enjoy.


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## Krazy!!! (Jul 10, 2002)

If players are relatively healthy and want to play alongside/against MJ then I have no problem with any NBA player/rookie wanting to play at Hoops.

Jamal and Mason on the other hand had NO business playing over there, and as a result, he made things tough for the rest of the Bulls players who want to play at Hoops the Gym.

Youth sometimes brings about recklessness and stupidity, which was/is the case with Crawford and Mason.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Krazy!!!</b>!
> If players are relatively healthy and want to play alongside/against MJ then I have no problem with any NBA player/rookie wanting to play at Hoops.


Well, that's exactly the point - Krause has such a problem with this that he has banned the entire team from playing there.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

it well within Krause's right as vp to say where and when the bulls can play and it always has been(except for a time when a certain chi-town baller had a love of the game clause inserted in his contract)

he wants his players to play where he trust the right steps will be made to keep his players healthy

i have a hard time villifying him for that in light of mason jr. and crawford's injuries at hoops the gym 

and since the players complain of not getting any run at the berto now that they cant play at hoops this problem should be handled


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Another little point or two. First, scrimmaging is NOT the only way to practice your bball skills, in fact, it is not the best way at all. Players love to scrimmage because they get to run and play and so on and so forth. US players could learn from the euro's to stop scrimmaging so much all of the time and learn through some fundamental individual and team drills. It's not as much fun for the player, but they learn iportant things when they do that. 

Second, the Bulls orginization should be certain that on most days there are enough players in teh Berto to scrimmage if thats what is needed that day. There is no reason why Ronnie Fields or whoever shouldn't be on the Bulls "practice" squad to give the Bulls some foils to play against when the time comes. Just my thoughts for what they are worth.


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## BamaBull (Jun 24, 2002)

*I agree with the principle...*



> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> You know what I found to be the most humerous about these articles. The keep saying "what young player wouldn't want to play against Ray Allen and Antoine Walker." Didn't Ray Allen sit out of the World Games due to injury? Now, I realize that they probably use Allen as an example since he's played there in the past and it doesn't necessarily mean he's played there recently. I just thought it was funny.
> 
> Here's my thoughts - if the guys get injured at Hoops knowing that management aka Krause will be upset then that's a chance they take. Look what happened to Crawford last season. Had he not torn his acl playing w/ MJ I'm guessing he would, in fact, be the pg of the future. Instead he is going into season 3 with Jay Williams primed and ready to take his spot. He has yet to develop himself into the PG that we've heard he is. Had he played last season and shown flashes, Krause may very well have traded that #2 pick and stuck with Crawford. We don't know for certain, of course, but why would Krause committ to a guy who has yet to play a full season? Especially when you have a shot at Williams? Way too risky.
> ...


....but in regards to where a player can practice or where they can't must be dictated by the GM, as when they get hurt in a car crash, THEY, are the only ones getting injured....if a player on a "team" gets injured, it certainly affects the whole organization. :grinning:


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## RealFan (Jun 12, 2002)

I fully support Krause's decision. If I watched the "assets" of my corporation get "damaged" in a repeatable manner, I, too, would see to it that it doesn't happen again. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. In this case, Krause let it go on longer than I would have.

And for those of you who think that men should be allowed to make their own decisions, I totally agree but for basketball related activities. They can party, stay out late, ... but these guys are PROFESSIONAL basketball players. If the boss says you have to do something a certain way, that's what they should do.

After two season ending injuries suffered by two Bulls players, I find it hard to believe that any true Bulls fan would question Krause's desire to keep the roster healthy.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> As I said in another thread this was a completely specious decison by Krause.
> 
> He still continues to amaze me.


just like mike wouldnt let kwame play with his friends tyson and eddy right?


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## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

Originally posted by BCH!
As I said in another thread this was a completely specious decison by Krause. 

He still continues to amaze me. 




> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> just like mike wouldnt let kwame play with his friends tyson and eddy right?


Now now, Johnny, I'm sure the Kwame thing was a totally different set of circumstances and that MJ was doing the right thing by not letting Kwame play...


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

What exactly are you referring to?

I seem to recall some restrictions placed on Curry or Chandler around the time of the Big Man's camp, not the other way around.


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## higginj44 (Jul 18, 2002)

Blurb from Dallas Forth Worth News web site

Sam Smith Article Dated June 24, 2002

_No room in the gym: There was some great fun at the Berto Center recently when Wizards rookie Kwame Brown was in town and asked to work out with Bulls players there. He did and Jordan was not happy and reportedly ordered Brown to stay away. Can't we all just be friends?_ 

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/basketball/3531557.htm


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## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>higginj44</b>!
> Blurb from Dallas Forth Worth News web site
> 
> _No room in the gym: There was some great fun at the Berto Center recently when Wizards rookie Kwame Brown was in town and asked to work out with Bulls players there. He did and Jordan was not happy and reportedly ordered Brown to stay away. Can't we all just be friends?_
> ...


I think *that's* what he was referring to.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> What exactly are you referring to?
> 
> I seem to recall some restrictions placed on Curry or Chandler around the time of the Big Man's camp, not the other way around.


it was a blurb on an article on chicagosports.com where kwame came by either the berto center or hoops to play with tyson and eddy, mj got angry and told kwame to IMMIDIATELY leave, the title of the paragraph was "*cant we all just get along?*"

this was around the time before the draft


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Though I think the reasons may be different, MJ's concern being more in line with who Kwame was working out with, rather than where, I would have to agree, MJ should let him practice where he wants. Especially since all NBA facilities are open to all NBA players during the offseason.

However, you are trying to draw a parallel between Krause using two injuries to ban all workouts at Hoops the Gym with MJ not wanting Kwame to work out with Curry and Chandler?

Though somewhat similar, I don't see the speciousness involved with what Krause is doing, in what MJ is doing.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

As I said in another thread this was a completely specious decison by jordan. 

He still continues to amaze me. :gbanana:


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## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

Oh Please BCH.

What your talking about here is a big red, 3 lb apple in my left hand and a big red, 3 lb apple in my right.

Two Identical actions by a GM and you praise one and are "specious" of the other?

Completely Asinine.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

I see what you're saying about Krause being specious about it. He made it seem like the injuries were the reason for them not to play and that it had nothing to do with the fact that the guys want to play with Jordan. Where as it's clear that Jordan didn't want Kwame at the Berto Center b/c it's the Bulls facility and Krause is there.

So...

Krause = Specious

Jordan = Outright dick

They both are using each other as the reason not to attend certain games. They are both being babies.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> 
> 
> So...
> ...


i second that :yes:


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## higginj44 (Jul 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> I see what you're saying about Krause being specious about it. He made it seem like the injuries were the reason for them not to play and that it had nothing to do with the fact that the guys want to play with Jordan. Where as it's clear that Jordan didn't want Kwame at the Berto Center b/c it's the Bulls facility and Krause is there.
> 
> So...
> ...


:yes:

But ya gotta appreciate BCH's ability to maintain such a narrow focus that he is able to keep to his agenda without coming back and acknowledging the "_core issues_" that appear to be pretty clear to everyone else.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RealFan</b>!
> After two season ending injuries suffered by two Bulls players, I find it hard to believe that any true Bulls fan would question Krause's desire to keep the roster healthy.


I don't question his desire to keep the roster healthy. I can't say the same about his management abilities. 

For some aspects (captology, long range vision) of the job, he is excellent. For other aspects, primarily managing personal and media, he is not nearly as strong. 

Of course, a GM can dicate to the team given their power, but a good leader would get the team to buy into what best for them or come up with a compromise (i.e. Bulls trainers at Hoops or let others into Berto) with the players that would not be newsworthy. 

Lastly, I wouldn't take our time to bring this up if not for past patterns and my ongoing concern that Krause has not learned from his own history.


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## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> Lastly, I wouldn't take our time to bring this up if not for past patterns and my ongoing concern that Krause has not learned from his own history.




.....Past Patterns? 
........History? 


Oh, like that whole multiple championship thing....?




I should hope damn well that he's familiar with his past success and continues the stellar work.


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## higginj44 (Jul 18, 2002)

I agree with J-297; this is a questionable method of dealing with this kind of situation. Krause is clearly disregarding the obvious benefits of his players getting the opportunity to get some run with players outside of the Bulls organization. I also agree with some of the points brought up by other posters such as Ace who pointed out that perhaps some of the young players on the Bulls should be spending more time working on drills with asst. coaches. However, IMO,you are probably blind if you don't see how much Fizer could improve his defense by defensing Antoine Walker at Hoops as opposed to working out against Corie Blount at the Berto center.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jim Ian</b>!
> .....Past Patterns?
> ........History?
> 
> Oh, like that whole multiple championship thing....?


On the same note, Donnie Walsh had some great quote about the how the Bulls keep winning championships while hating each other and the Pacers keep losing despite harmony.

I would wager that if as much anomosity builds again that the cost will be much higher than the last time. But only time will tell...


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

I think Jordan was much more upfront about it.

Krause goes about it in such a way that he tries to make it look like he is doing them a favor by banning them from playing. Instead of it being in their best interests, he makes no doubt that it is in his best interests instead. Johnston797 brings up Krause's past dealingts with MJ over injuries, and he makes a point.

Krause is being specious. Jordan is being somewhat blunt, but he has been that straightforward in his dealings in the past with other teammates. 

One thing you won't see Krause banning is Krsipy Kreme from the Berto.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>higginj44</b>!
> 
> 
> :yes:
> ...


You are saying that the core issue is not Krause's speciousness?

It seems to me that everytime I have a valid criticism, someone tries to sidetrack the issue by making some inane MJ/Wizards comparrison. It makes you wonder that I _am_ able to keep my focus where it should be, on the _core issues_.

Krause is once again bumbling his way through things. Hassel and Fizer have already spoken out about the games. Crawford had praise for them as well last year. So you have players that enjoy working out with MJ and other Pros and a GM who makes an excuse about injuries to ban them from participating. These games are in Chicago, with NBA refs, and Tim Grover around as one of the top trainers for NBA players. If Krause needs to have a Bulls trainer there, it could easily be arranged. The guy amazes me.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> I think Jordan was much more upfront about it.
> 
> Krause goes about it in such a way that he tries to make it look like he is doing them a favor by banning them from playing. Instead of it being in their best interests, he makes no doubt that it is in his best interests instead. Johnston797 brings up Krause's past dealingts with MJ over injuries, and he makes a point.
> ...


I don't think Krause has the luxury of being straightforward. If he said that he didn't want the guys playing at Hoops with MJ because he dislikes MJ then the media would have an absolute field day. It's better he be specious about things than be blunt. If it were Jerry West he would be able to say anything and people would listen.

MJ can say he doesn't want Kwame playing at the Berto and no one will question it.


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## higginj44 (Jul 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> 
> 
> You are saying that the core issue is not Krause's speciousness?
> ...


That's YOUR CORE POINT, and that is fine. However, as has been pointed out, the action is essentially the same by both GMs, but YOUR PHILOSOPHY seems to be that MJ's childish behavior is acceptable because he is more straightforward about it, and JK's is not acceptable because he is less straightforward. If YOU want to give MJ points for "keeping it real", I guess that is your business, but everyone doesn't see it that way. Some people simply see TWO grown men acting like babies. THAT is the "core issue" that others here seem to see. And, I am certain that I have seen you do the "comaparison thing" a time or two yourself.


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## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> I think Jordan was much more upfront about it.
> 
> Krause goes about it in such a way that he tries to make it look like he is doing them a favor by banning them from playing. Instead of it being in their best interests, he makes no doubt that it is in his best interests instead. Johnston797 brings up Krause's past dealingts with MJ over injuries, and he makes a point.
> ...




BCH, Why does it always have to end with a Kruase fat-joke?
Seriously, it's old. Uncalled for. Extremely Juvinile.

That being said... The fact of the matter is, the way YOU percive a GMs actions has little to do with the fact they did the SAME THING. Since I'm doubting you saw with your own eyes Krause tell Fizer & Chandler they were no longered allowed at Hoops, or that you heard with your own ears Jordan tell Kwame that he could not be at Berto... How can you possibly infer thier intentions or who they are looking out for???

Personally, I think Krause and Jordan are both in the right. An NBA players 1st responsibility is to his team. Players should be with thier teamates. Geling, working out, running the offense, drilling, getting to know each others game, watching film, shooting, shooting, shooting, polishing post moves, practicing Defense.... the list goes on forever. 

Playing pick-up games helps with NONE of this. I've seen the games. They are like all star games. NO D. All dunks and 3's. It's no wonder they get hurt. And refs? Please... you think they are going to call anything that doesn't knock someone down? You think they are going to call touch fouls? Oh please.


Bottom Line: This is the correct desision. Period. Krause is being vilified for what in other cities would be considered a "no-brainer" call.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

higginj44,

My issue is the duality of what Krause is doing. I never said what MJ did was ok. In fact I said it was wrong. But Krause is making this decision seem like he is helping the players out by banning them. The core issue is not MJ versus Krause. The core issue is the fact that I said Krause was being specious. Someone then tries to make a parallel, and I correctly point out the differences. It does not change the core issue.

The only thing I can recommend to you is to read the thread and read what I wrote.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jim Ian</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The end does not justify the means. Though what MJ and Krause effectively accomplished is similar, it was Krause's speciousness on the matter that is what I am pointing out. You should probably go look up the word because I doubt you get the meaning.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't think Krause has the luxury of being straightforward. If he said that he didn't want the guys playing at Hoops with MJ because he dislikes MJ then the media would have an absolute field day. It's better he be specious about things than be blunt. If it were Jerry West he would be able to say anything and people would listen.
> ...


So once again Krause's past affects his ability to administer to hsi duties as GM? Is that what you are saying?


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jim Ian</b>!
> Playing pick-up games helps with NONE of this. I've seen the games. They are like all star games. NO D. All dunks and 3's.


Ric Bucher and Rick Telander saw the games too.

From

http://msn.espn.go.com/magazine/vol4no21jordan.html

"And Jordan knows this. As I watched him play at Hoops through the months, adding real NBA refs and better and better players -- guys like Penny Hardaway, Tim Hardaway, Antoine Walker, Michael Finley, Jerry Stackhouse, Quentin Richardson, Jamal Crawford, Juwan Howard, Corey Maggette, Tyson Chandler and, yes, even the shaved-headed blob Barkley -- I could see Jordan filtering everything and finding his place."

From:

http://msn.espn.go.com/magazine/telander_20010802.html

"Yeah, it's true there was some basket-hanging and not everyone was in shape -- ahem, Chuckie -- and there wasn't the urgency of, say, a Bulls-Jazz 1998 Game Six. But only winners stayed on, and even NBA guys in pickup games don't like to lose. But Jordan wanted to lose less than anyone.

He was playing with Jamal Crawford, and the two of them couldn't be beat. Crawford is the skinny, now almost 6'7" second-year point guard for the Bulls, and his long-range shooting and court decisions clearly pleased Jordan"

--------------------------------------------------
Read the 2 articles.

Sounds a bit more serious than glorified run and gun.


----------



## higginj44 (Jul 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> higginj44,
> 
> My issue is the duality of what Krause is doing. I never said what MJ did was ok. In fact I said it was wrong. But Krause is making this decision seem like he is helping the players out by banning them. The core issue is not MJ versus Krause. The core issue is the fact that I said Krause was being specious. Someone then tries to make a parallel, and I correctly point out the differences. It does not change the core issue.
> ...


BCH - Krause is specious because he is not being straightfoward about his motivation for ordering players not to play at Hoops

Other Posters - Yeah, but MJ also ordered Kwame not to play with TC and EC at Berto

BCH - HUH, what are you talking about???

LINK Provided

BCH - OH, well uhhh, Yeah but MJ was not specious when he did it.

Other posters - Specious, Precious... Who cares?? They were both being childish

Higginj44- Yeah, but give BCH credit for "limiting the discussion" to only the points that he wants to make.

BCH - Why do you people have to make JK/MJ comparison? I ONLY WANT TO TALK ABOUT KRAUSE'S SPECIOUSNESS. THAT IS THE CORE ISSUE. 

Higginj44- Point noted, but others here see another "Major Theme" despite how YOU characterize the methods in which they went about being really rather silly..

BCH- LOOK HIGGINJ44, I TOLD YOU ONCE BEFORE. THE ONLY THING that I want to discuss IS THE SPECIOUSNESS OF KRAUSE. OTHER posters think it is important to point out that MJ has been just as childish. I have acknowledged that MJ was wrong, but again, the CORE ISSUE (BECAUSE I SAID SO) is that KRAUSE WAS SPECIOUS. 

I recommend that you read my posts.

Higginj44- Recommendation Noted :grinning:


----------



## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> 
> 
> So once again Krause's past affects his ability to administer to hsi duties as GM? Is that what you are saying?


Yes it does. Because there are people who will think the worst of him whatever his motives are. For example, he and MJ both ban players from playing in a certain forum and Krause is lambasted by some people b/c the way he went about it whereas Jordan is not.

What I'm saying is - the guy could donate 1 million dollars to charity and some people would rip on him for not donating 2 million. In general there are a lot of people who will find fault in everything he does. In this case, I don't agree with his choice but it's his choice to make. They're his employees.

ETA - not so much his ability to do his GM duties but the way he does them. I think he would have made the same decision but has changed the way he says it due to his "popularity."


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Higginj,

You are the one that mentioned core issue. I think the core issue was my observation. I was immediately and specifically asked if this was what MJ was when he told Kwame he couldn't play at the Berto. I didn't recall, but when provided the link, quickly showed how one instance is one of Krause being specious and MJ not.

Of course now since I have already shown that MJ was being straightforward and not specious, then it shifts to being specious is not the point, the point is the are babies. Wrong. The point was Krause was specious. The comment on that was MJ was too. The revuttal to that was, Krause was and MJ was not. This is the point at which you make your "core issues" comment. 

Your little conversation example is worfully inadequate and merely shows you did not read, or follow, the topic and conversation. While it was indeed amusing to see you try to piece it all back together again, it is there for everyone to see.


----------



## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes it does. Because there are people who will think the worst of him whatever his motives are. For example, he and MJ both ban players from playing in a certain forum and Krause is lambasted by some people b/c the way he went about it whereas Jordan is not.
> ...


I will reiterate that the only resolution to Krause's popularity problem is to start being upfront about things. He purposefully goes about his business in a fashion that continually allows these sorts of criticisms.


----------



## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> 
> 
> The end does not justify the means. Though what MJ and Krause effectively accomplished is similar, it was Krause's speciousness on the matter that is what I am pointing out. You should probably go look up the word because I doubt you get the meaning.


The meaning of speciousness? Well.. since such a word does not exsist in the english language, i'll presume you mean suspiciousness. Please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.

You skipped around one important point, BCH. WHAT makes you suspicious of Kruase? The way he said his players were not longer allowed to play at... oh, wait.. you didn't hear him say that. So all your "suspicions" are based on a 3rd hand news-report? 

Oh well... as long as we are all clear now....


----------



## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> 
> 
> I will reiterate that the only resolution to Krause's popularity problem is to start being upfront about things. He purposefully goes about his business in a fashion that continually allows these sorts of criticisms.


I have a feeling that most of the people I talk to (and pretty much all of them hate Krause) could care less how he presented things. He could say "I don't want these mofo's playing at Hoops b/c Jordan might be putting a bug in their ears and telling them to leave Chicago," and folks would say "Quit being a jerk, Krause."

His popularity problem will not be fixed if he starts turning into Fletcher Reed from Liar Liar. If he was more upfront he'd be faced with a whole new set of criticisms. I think since the "orginizations win championships" speech at Grant park he is decidedly careful about what he says.


----------



## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> Ric Bucher and Rick Telander saw the games too.
> ...





I've read the articles. I read them last summer when they were written, and I still don't see anything that distinguishes these games from your typical East/West All-Star Game. 

Winners Stay on? Basket-Hanging? Not Everyone was in Shape?

Hmmm... Yeah, I'll stick by every word I said. They Are Glorified "All-Star" Games. 

That's why players are pulling up lame in bunches.


----------



## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> 
> 
> I will reiterate that the only resolution to Krause's popularity problem is to start being upfront about things. He purposefully goes about his business in a fashion that continually allows these sorts of criticisms.


Some people have the gift of gab and that gets them somewhere in life regardless of ability.

Sometimes an ignorant owner can pick a hall of fame player to be GM under the mistaken assumption that the ability to do one thing, makes you good at a totally different thing as in the "The Peter Principle."

Krause is just good at being a GM, evaluating talent, managing the cap, making astute trades, etc. He does not have the gift of gab and is sorely lacking in the ability to spew popular BS. That is PR, that has little to do with what needs to be done in the real work of a GM. These are skills he does not posses nor will he ever posses them and he doesn't bother.

There is no resolution to Krause's popularity problem. Not with the masses putting a premium on packaging over content.

With the donut jokes and your "MJ uber alles" no matter what attitude, you are slipping BCH. Blind loyalty to a fault is a huge fault in and of itself and by the way, since MJ is supposed to be an active player, isn't it a major conflict of interest for him to be making any kind of management decisions?


----------



## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Songcycle</b>!
> 
> With the donut jokes and your "MJ uber alles" no matter what attitude, you are slipping BCH. Blind loyalty to a fault is a huge fault in and of itself and by the way, since MJ is supposed to be an active player, isn't it a major conflict of interest for him to be making any kind of management decisions?



*Excellent Post Songcycle*


But c'mon? MJ???? Conflict of Interest?  
Illegal Dealings? Now C'mon, lets be real here...


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jim Ian</b>!
> The meaning of speciousness? Well.. since such a word does not exsist in the english language, i'll presume you mean suspiciousness. Please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.


Jim, I'll save you from a worst bashing by responding first.

-------------------------------------

Pronunciation: 'spE-sh&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, visually pleasing, from Latin speciosus beautiful, plausible, from species
Date: 1513
1 obsolete : SHOWY
2 : having deceptive attraction or allure
3 : having a false look of truth or genuineness : SOPHISTIC
- spe·cious·ly adverb
- spe·cious·ness noun 

Synonyms FALLACY , casuistry, deception, deceptiveness, delusion, equivocation, sophism, sophistry, spuriousness

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I must say that I am dubious of posters that use language repeatedly that is tenebrous when other better known synonyms exist.


----------



## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> Jim, I'll save you from a worst bashing by responding first.
> ...



Johnston, thanks for the quick English lesson. 
Though from your definition, neither I nor BCH used our word(s) properly. 
Oh, isn't English Fun...

But Language aside, that was not really the point of my post at all. I am not usually one to make fun of others language skills (or lack thereof), but I felt BCHs crack was out-of-line backpedalling. In hindsight, the language crack was probably made against my better judgement....

And My question remains unanswered...


----------



## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jim Ian</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mmm hmmm. semi sanctioned hood ball jimmy ? Interesting and a possibility I do not doubt. 

Does the style of ball they play here improve individual's flash n trash skills ? Perhaps. 

Does the style of ball they play improve an individual's capacity to play within a cohesive unit and develop telepathy with the players that they will be running with during the regular season . I would say not 

Does Marcus crack a fat because Antoine isolates him and tries putting a spin move on him but discovers he can't spin past Marcus's substantial girth quick enough to get the leverage he needs to clear him and flush it on him ? Does Marcus draw confidence from this ? Perhaps. But this is someone's physicaility - not an improvement of defensive skill - whatever

Based on what you say Jimmy , if you have seen what you claim , is this not what some is claiming is wrong with home grown ball right now ? The focus on the individual at the expense of team 

There is no "I" in team 

The solution is simple ( tongue planted firmly in cheek ) 

Contract the Yugo, Spainard, Brazilian and Argy Nat sides for the next 2 - 3 summers to hang at the Berto and hand out some basketball lessons similar to what was handed out at the WBC - so we may employ such lessons against the ill discliplined Sodom and Gomarah sinner ballers during the regular season . Learning how to play the game in the way that it is meant to be played with the on court tutelage of such national teams should see us back contending for a ring in 2 - 3 years by leapfrogging da hoops mafia posse


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Songcycle</b>!
> Krause is just good at being a GM, evaluating talent, managing the cap, making astute trades, etc. He does not have the gift of gab and is sorely lacking in the ability to spew popular BS. That is PR, that has little to do with what needs to be done in the real work of a GM. These are skills he does not posses nor will he ever posses them and he doesn't bother.


It shows that Krause doesn't bother. Perhaps a computer programmer doesn't need people skills. A GM does.



> Originally posted by <b>Songcycle</b>!
> ... since MJ is supposed to be an active player, isn't it a major conflict of interest for him to be making any kind of management decisions?


Here we go again. I suggest that you go start a thread about this on the Washington board are truly interested in discussing this.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>higginj44</b>!
> 
> 
> BCH - Krause is specious because he is not being straightfoward about his motivation for ordering players not to play at Hoops
> ...


:laugh: 

That's funny higgs


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## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> It shows that Krause doesn't bother. Perhaps a computer programmer doesn't need people skills. A GM does.
> ...


You don't have a clue.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Sometimes you guys really make me laugh.

Songcycle - I said MJ was wrong. I guess that sort of ruins your "MJ uber alles" theory. Though I am sure you can make it out I am wrong about other things.

Jim Ian - If you can't take specious and apply it to Krause telling the BUlls players that can't play at Hoops the Gym because of fear of injury, I can't help you.

Considering you didn't even understand my original point, I guess there is nothing left to discuss. I'll try and use more common words from now on.

Personal comment removed. - BCH


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> 
> 
> I will reiterate that the only resolution to Krause's popularity problem is to start being upfront about things. He purposefully goes about his business in a fashion that continually allows these sorts of criticisms.


so lets see you ar sayin that becase of JK's usual unsavy way about the media 

the times he makes a conscoius decision to be a little smart in the way he chooses to go about his job and in fact not piss off the media 

now bear in mind he could actually be telling the truth as he endorsed bulls players going there last year even after JC got hurt to the point of arranging rides between the berto center and hoops the gym

he is being specious 

crystal clear 

and since we are expanding our vocabulary in this thread today i'll enter a new word 

delusions-false beliefs about reality that have no basis in fact


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

happygrinch,

You are right. Krause is banning the Bulls players from playing at Hoops the Gym because he is afraid they are going to get injured. That is all this is about. He really is afraid that Hoops the Gym is a bredding ground for injury for Bulls players and Bulls players only, hence the ban.


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## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> Sometimes you guys really make me laugh.
> 
> Songcycle - I said MJ was wrong. I guess that sort of ruins your "MJ uber alles" theory. Though I am sure you can make it out I am being somehow anti-semetic.
> ...


You expect someone in their 60's to develop new skills they haven't been able to come close to at this point in life.


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## higginj44 (Jul 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> Higginj,
> 
> You are the one that mentioned core issue. I think the core issue was my observation. I was immediately and specifically asked if this was what MJ was when he told Kwame he couldn't play at the Berto. I didn't recall, but when provided the link, quickly showed how one instance is one of Krause being specious and MJ not.
> ...


BCH,

Here is a snippet from the thread by Vin Diesel that kicked off this thread



> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...20910bullskrause.story?coll=cs-home-headlines
> 
> What does everyone think of the article?
> ...


That is what I believe to be the true "core issue", and not this stuff about Krause being specious. I would be real curious as to who specifically you feel tried to seriously argue that MJ was being specious. You said that someone commented that MJ was specious too. Who made that statement?


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Post by Johnny_Bravisimo right after my post.


***


> > quote:
> > Originally posted by BCH!
> > As I said in another thread this was a completely specious decison by Krause.
> >
> ...


***

Vin Diesel's post also directly refers to the speciousness I am talking about. It is not about MJ telling Kwame not to play with the Bulls kids. If Krause really is intending for the Bulls players not to play with MJ then he should come out and say it, pretty much like MJ did. The only person that has even touched this issue is Lizzy who made a very valid point that he would be lambasted by the media if he did so. I agree with her, and I draw the conclusion that the reason for this is due to how he has acted in the past.


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## higginj44 (Jul 18, 2002)

Here is Lizzy's entire post,



> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> I see what you're saying about Krause being specious about it. He made it seem like the injuries were the reason for them not to play and that it had nothing to do with the fact that the guys want to play with Jordan. Where as it's clear that Jordan didn't want Kwame at the Berto Center b/c it's the Bulls facility and Krause is there.
> 
> So...
> ...



Perhaps Lizzy did touch on the whole "Krause is again being dishonest" theme that you like to focus on, but in reading her original post on this thread, it seems to me that at least she saw through the "_Krause is specious_" stuff, and really got down to the true "core issue".

Perhaps we are interpreting JB's question diffrently, but I really don't think that he was trying to say that MJ was being specious. I believed it to be a sarcastic response that poked a little fun at your use of the word. If he was trying to argue that MJ was being specious, then why would he have agreed with Lizzy's 

Krause = Specious

Jordan = Outright dick

assessment?


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## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

Title of the thread is: *Krause says no more Hoops.* That has nothing to do with the words you called a poster here. Please focus on the theme and not the poster!!  

Disagee all you want. But please do not belittle the person with a different view. truebluefan


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

I am not saying he didn't come around on the issue. I am saying I was responding to that issue. Look at the timeline, you still attempt to make it seem as if I am taking away this conversation from its "core issues" when in fact I did nothing of the sort. 

Look, there is room for interpretation of what JB said, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt for understanding my point, and corrected him when he made the comment, "just like mike...."


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## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think "Delusions" has already been covered in its capacity as a synonym by Professor johnston007 who was trying to let down another poster lightly

Perhaps the word of the day should be "compulsive" or "irritating"


Word 

Eh ( Sorry Vin - I hope you don't mind me borrowing this one )


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I have a question. If so many of the Bulls fans have "moved on" from the time MJ was a member of the team, how come you are utterly incapable of:
1) Seeing a post by a Wizards fan (on an unrelated topic)
2) A criticism of Krause

without invoking MJ.

You're obsessed. Get over it. It's both tiresome and tedius, and it leads to posts that do nothing but make me feel dumber for having read it.


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## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

I have to say that I think none of this has anything to do with MJ and Jerzy 

While its an interesting speculative subplot that adds a few suds to the conversation piece - IMO Jerzy's edict to his players at Hoops and Mike's to Kwame are all about protecting their assets and feeling vulnerable as to their ability to do so , when they are not in a monitored situation with representatives ( trainers/physios etc ) from their own ballclub 

Whist I think it is reasonable to argue the merits of control and how far it should extend and in what circumstances - I really think it to be completely unreasonable to label Krause as deceptive with some deep dark ulterior motive that is personally rooted and passing it off in the way he has stated it ( as to why ) 

Krause stated he didnt want them there and stated his reasons and MJ stated he didnt want him there and didnt state his reasons - Krause would have copped more of a bashing if he gave no reasons - but MJ gives no reasons and the press - mindful of throwing a spin cycle to generate maximum suds in the soap opera saga turn it into an MJ and Jerzy thing . What crap.

When you have lost two players two summers in a row - this should on the face of it represent sufficient reason to draw the line and protect your assets better 

I think free will and determination v organisational responsibility to those that pay you and who are investing you is a more worthwhile discussion and one that you could have equally in addressing Jerzy and MJ's decisions to pull the reigns in on the occasions they have exercised their authority to do so


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Actually MJ has no authority to make decision about where Kwame plays. Krause has more of a right to invoke GM authority to prohibit players from playing at Hoops the Gym.

Of course we are speculating on a single report about MJ ordering Kwame on what to do, which I do not doubt in the least, and we have fairly conclusive evidence about the directive Krause gave.

SO any parallel is going to be mostly supposition.


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>F.Jerzy</b>!
> 
> 
> I think "Delusions" has already been covered in its capacity as a synonym by Professor johnston007 who was trying to let down another poster lightly
> ...


Haha, no problem FJ.

Whew. I go to a Cubs game, come home and pass out on the couch, and find out this thread has simply exploded. Hey.

Jerry Krause made an executive decision to not allow his players to play at Hoops the Gym, on the west side of Chicago. This decision was well within his realm of authority. Do I agree with the decision? Simply put, no.

My original point was that I found it a bit peculiar that Jerry K would make such a decision, especially in light of the fact that these young players stand to gain good experience from these scrimmages. Don't believe me? If you read the quotes from Fizer, Hassell, and know the fact that Crawford has been a dedicated Hoops baller even post-injury... shows that it was a definite desirable locale to play hoops in the offseason. If I'm a young, mostly unproven player in the NBA, its a forgone conclusion that I want to prove my game against NBA stars and the best ever in MJ.

Injuries were involved here, and that does give some credence to Krause's decision. But for the sake of argument, Crawford needed a summer w/ MJ to improve his confidence after a shaky (remember Pink?) first season. Its unfortunate he was injured, but those game w/ MJ improved his game. Its doubtful if 3 on 3s w/ Hoiberg and Dolly would have done the same. With Mason, I have no idea why he would try dunking on Juwana Mann HOward. But that shoulder injury was recurring and may have well occured during the season or practice.

All in all, there is something involved here greater than just 2 injuries in 2 years. If I've learned anything after posting here a few months, its that Jerry K threads are the most passionate and divided around. Inevitably, and unfortunately, these same Jerry K debates turn into a Jerry vs. MJ thread. This time though, I will stay out of it for the most part and just say that its a shame this decision occurred. The young BUlls players stand to gain a lot from these scrimmages.

Peace.


VD


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## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

Thanks for deleting an honest opinion


----------



## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

I don't have a clue what you deleted and why. The post I thought you would have deleted when I saw this, you didn't. I am not sure which one you did, in any event, I am starting to wonder about you. Maybe I need to leave. Could you pm me with the original post and what I did wrong. If not, bye.

Soncycle, you called him a name that was not needed. I would have edited the same way if it was reversed. truebluefan


----------



## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Songcycle</b>!
> 
> 
> Thanks for deleting an honest opinion.
> ...


Excuse me, you are really coloring things inappropriately, I did not call him an idiot, a moron, stupid or another insulting term. I was civil and accuarate and I didn't stoop to the level you seem to be be accusing me of dipping to. You owe me an apology.

I called him a homer, which means someone who defends his team or position no matter what. This is especially true of someone who is a fan of another team who posts on another teams board defending his team at the expense of ours no matter what because it is his home team. This is appropriaite and not an insult at all. It is accurate. I can't believe you did this trueblue. I thought you were better than this.


----------



## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> Sometimes you guys really make me laugh.
> 
> Jim Ian - If you can't take specious and apply it to Krause telling the BUlls players that can't play at Hoops the Gym because of fear of injury, I can't help you.
> ...


BCH- I know how you _intend_ the word to be used. I understand what you are trying to say in 99% of your posts, little sense as they make most of the time. But I don't agree with you in the slightest, as is my right.

Now let's not turn this into a pissing contest. I do not, under any circumstances, want, nor need, your help. I am in serious doubt that you of all people need to use more common words for me. Using them in a better context would help, for starters. They are only impressive if used properly. And even then....



Now as for you basis of this thread. BCH has started much of this arguing with his "speciousness" of Krause. Yet he has... an article in the paper to go on? No facts, no basis, just a hunch he defends vehemently. 




It is the posters on this board right to disagree, but the fact is that 99% of GMs would make the same call as Krause to protect thier players and not be called on it. GMs HAVE in the past made the SAME decision and not a word has been spoken. This is just another case of people looking for reasons to rip into Jerry, And I think it's a very sorry attempt...


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

How can you say you understood what I was saying when you though speciousness was suspiciousness? I am talking about something reported in several news outlets with quotes from Krause, Hassel, and Fizer. Other GMs make decisions without having to give a "specious" reason.


----------



## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> How can you say you understood what I was saying when you though speciousness was suspiciousness? I am talking about something reported in several news outlets with quotes from Krause, Hassel, and Fizer. Other GMs make decisions without having to give a "specious" reason.


How could I possibly know what you talking about when even you don't??



And you dodge the question yet again. 

What is it you find so specious?

Is it the fact the games are rough and injuries occur semi-often? I just don't see where you come from at all on this. You have what, 2 quotes to go on? And you draw aaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll this from that?

.......?


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

I have clearly explained in a couple posts what was specious.


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## higginj44 (Jul 18, 2002)

OK, OK, new word alert.

This thread is now officially hebetudinous.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>higginj44</b>!
> OK, OK, new word alert.
> 
> This thread is now officially hebetudinous.


Holla.


Its dictionary.com time baby.

heb·e·tude Pronunciation Key (hb-td, -tyd) n.

Dullness of mind; mental lethargy.



VD


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## higginj44 (Jul 18, 2002)

Main Entry: heb·e·tude 
Pronunciation: 'he-b&-"tüd, -"tyüd
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin hebetudo, from hebEre to be dull; akin to Latin ***** dull
Date: circa 1621
: LETHARGY, DULLNESS
- *heb·e·tu·di·nous* /"he-b&-'tü-d&n-&s, -'tyü-/ adjective 

Just to keep us all honest


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## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> I have clearly explained in a couple posts what was specious.
> 
> In Variuos BCH Posts:I think Jordan was much more upfront about it.
> ...


I see many assumtions and cliches about Krause... But little... in fact NO... actual proof. 


Now the only quotes I can find directly from Krause is this: "We've had two injuries there, and that makes me unhappy,'' Krause said. "We've had two there and none here [at the Berto Center].

"Everything is set for you here. You stretch, and there's a trainer. I don't know what they have there. I know it's very controlled and supervised here.''

(From http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bull11.html)



I think thats pretty cut and dried and fairly direct. He's doing it in the best players of the players THAT WORK FOR HIM.

So again I await your next avoidance of my question...
(or as you call it, a "clear explantaion")


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Jim,

Krause maintaining he doesn't know what is going on there is off-the-charts hilarious. It would take about 5 minutes of talking to one of his players to figure it out. What we know about Hoops the Gym is that it is where Tim Grover is located. It hires NBA refs full-time to ref the games, and several NBA players, including MJ, use it to workout during the summer.

If he wants to send a trainer to Hoops the Gym he is perfectly capable of doing it. He also hasn't banned players from working out elsewhere, just Hoops the Gym.


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## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>
> Jim,
> 
> Krause maintaining he doesn't know what is going on there is off-the-charts hilarious. It would take about 5 minutes of talking to one of his players to figure it out. What we know about Hoops the Gym is that it is where Tim Grover is located. It hires NBA refs full-time to ref the games, and several NBA players, including MJ, use it to workout during the summer.
> ...


BCH,
How would Jerry know what goes on there. He's probobly not welcome there.

I think it's more of an expression, as in: "what the hell is going on there?" An expression used to explain the rash of injuries. Fact is he's right in using it, as some people wonder the same thing... 

Enough about Grover. God could be the trainer, fact is people are still getting hurt. Young and old players in particular.

Again i say, there are NBA refs in an All-Star game, how is this significantly different.


Why are Bulls players asked not to play at Just HOOPS?
A) I don't see players playing anywhere but there and Berto (due to proximity mostly)
B) I don't see players getting hurt elsewhere on a regular basis.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Jim,

Please understand that I think it is within Krause's rights to tell his guys they can't play there. I may not agree with it, just as I don;t agree with MJ banning Kwame. My only contention is how it was announced by him. If his reasons are solely based on preventing injury because he does not know what goes on there, then he is by default limiting his players to working out solely in places he has given prior approval to.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> Holla.
> ...


 LMAO... man vin, i think you should add a "Holla!" somewhere in your siggy, LOL.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> Jim,
> 
> Please understand that I think it is within Krause's rights to tell his guys they can't play there. I may not agree with it, just as I don;t agree with MJ banning Kwame. My only contention is how it was announced by him. If his reasons are solely based on preventing injury because he does not know what goes on there, then he is by default limiting his players to working out solely in places he has given prior approval to.


but its not like jerry just up and decided not to let them play at hoops for no reason, roger mason just got seiously injured there, thats two almost season-ending injuries in two years, if that isnt a good reason, then i dont know what is

i dont see how jerry is being deceptive in his motives at all, a guy just got injured playing there, thats it, plain and simple, he has a legit reason, its only speculation at this time that jerry dosent want them around mj


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## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> Jim,
> 
> Please understand that I think it is within Krause's rights to tell his guys they can't play there. I may not agree with it, just as I don;t agree with MJ banning Kwame. My only contention is how it was announced by him. If his reasons are solely based on preventing injury because he does not know what goes on there, then he is by default limiting his players to working out solely in places he has given prior approval to.


BCH, honestly I'm getting sick of arguing. I need my beauty sleep.  

But seriously. HOW did he say it? He said all the right things in my opinion. YES, he is allowing players to play only in places he approves. Players are more then players, they are investments of sorts. He obviously does not want his players injured, and he's doing the best for the bottom line of both the Bulls franchise and it's players. 

HOOPS is not the safest place, that cannot be argued. Is keeping players healthy more important then allowing them to openly scrimmige with more experianced players? I say yes.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

I think it has been mentioned by johnston797 how this idea of a player as property was the beginning of Krause's issues with MJ.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> I think it has been mentioned by johnston797 how this idea of a player as property was the beginning of Krause's issues with MJ.


the problem is that krause isnt doing anything different then what GMs have been doing for years


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> the problem is that krause isnt doing anything different then what GMs have been doing for years


I don't disagree with the end results of what he is doing. I have mostly contended it has been how he goes about it.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

*Songcyle*

sorry for coming on to you in public. As i look back i think i should have just pmed you. Im human. I make mistakes. Looking back it does seem a bit harsh. I just didnt want something started and instead thats what i did. I will pm you next time if needed. Pm me if you want to discuss it any further


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## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

*Re: Songcyle*



> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> sorry for coming on to you in public. As i look back i think i should have just pmed you. Im human. I make mistakes. Looking back it does seem a bit harsh. I just didnt want something started and instead thats what i did. I will pm you next time if needed. Pm me if you want to discuss it any further


How about un-deleting his post, that would be a start...


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## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

*Re: Songcyle*



> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> sorry for coming on to you in public. As i look back i think i should have just pmed you. Im human. I make mistakes. Looking back it does seem a bit harsh. I just didnt want something started and instead thats what i did. I will pm you next time if needed. Pm me if you want to discuss it any further


Trueblue, I don't mind a public rebuke, I publish a paper, have an award winning weekly TV show and my critics rip me on a daily basis. Sometimes all I have to do is walk out of the house to get cursed, big deal, that I don't mind, to me that is part of daily life. The pm is no big deal compared to the board, The repeated warnings BS from MikeDC who I don't like is a different matter that has no basis in fact or history.

*Frankly, I don't care whether you like me or not. What I do care about is making this a good place. And you taking over every thread to wage this battle does not further that goal and will not be tolerated.

MikeDC
*

What I don't get is how calling someone a homer gets me deleted, expecially when it is accurate and in my mind, not an insulting term but a real description as opposed to saying firetruck to him which stays on the board and is perfectly fine and we all know what that means. If someone called me a homer when it comes to the Bulls or the Bears it would have some accuaracy and I would not consider it an insult.
For future reference, if you want to rebuke me, do it publicly, PMs are BS. Maybe that makes me a homer. Apologize if you truly think you are wrong, I think this is totally absurd.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Enough of this!!! I apologized to you song. Enough!! And yes i will pm you if i feel the need to. The reason why i did it was, i told you what does that have to do with the thread? Nothing!! You take jabs at BCH all the time. What does that have to do with the thread. If you cant accept my apology then why go on and on about it on the board! What good are you doing? What purpose does it serve and what does it have to do with the bulls in general? 

Bullsnews!! What have i done to you you to deserve a threatening e-mail and all the ranting your doing at BCH? You get mad at BCH and threaten to take everyone with you. This makes three times you have done that. Twice at realgm and once here. Again what did i do?


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

The thread has been reopened to talk about the subject at hand, that is, one of the following:

Hoops the Gym
The Berto Center
Why Jerry Krause has a hit out on anything Jordan-like

Hebetude is a tangent, unfortunately, but feel free to use the word, as well as other illustrious vocabulary, to brighten up the normally vernacular postings.


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## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

MikeDC, I haven't posted here for 4 or 5 days before today and I very much mind your writing your moderator crap in my post after the fact as opposed to a seperate post while quoting me. 

I have made my peace with trueblue. You are on ignore and it is only occasions like today that I noticed you.

If you honestly thing your over moderation and the privilege you took by posting the way you did makes this a better place as you claimed you were doing, you are sadly mistaken.
I was at peace here, now I am not, hit my post with a quote and rip me all you want, that is fair, getting to change my post and spewing your nonsense and editing at will... The ***** are coming and they spell their name MikeDC.

What's ironic about your whole diatribe here is that I hadn't actually edited anything in your post. I didn't change or remove a single word you wrote. Until now, that is, and your slur towards me. I'd think someone who goes out of his way to defend his heritage would have more sense than that.

In this response response, you show that you really didn't mean any apology you made. by further going even further off the basketball topic. If you sincerely want to talk about basketball, then I suggest you apologize to me and then go about talking hoops. *MikeDC*


[This is an example of PM material, not public domain. I can't find a good reason for this to be in here.. -Showtyme]


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Showtyme</b>!
> The thread has been reopened to talk about the subject at hand, that is, one of the following:
> 
> Hoops the Gym
> ...


fine i'm back on the topic

JK did nothing wrong he acknowledged it was a great place for bulls to get experience last year in fact had made it easier for them to get to hoops he gym by setting up transportation for manyof the players 

the only player he didn't want playing last year was JC because he was having leg trouble 

and boom JC get lost for most of the year playing alongside Jordan 

this year he again had no problem with hoops the gym til Mason jr messed up his shoulder 

2 players in 2 years geting hurt at the same place says something about the safety issues of working and playing out there


now others may not see that due to their manic need to discredit a man and the organization that he represents 

but the facts back jerry krause up 

and since there are no facts forthcoming from the side railing against him on this one I feel inclined to disregard them 


IMO Krause was well within his authority and was being responsible for the health of his players

i believe Krause does not like MJ but i also believe krause would never cost himself something over personal feelings and until i see proof to the contrary i'm going to keep that belief


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## Krazy!!! (Jul 10, 2002)

Good morning truebluefan!!!!


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## Krazy!!! (Jul 10, 2002)

After reading today's article regarding Hoops...I'm more at ease with Bulls players playing over there and will now back off of my argument from yesterday.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bull12.html

Interesting article. More fuel for the flames.




VD


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## Nater (Jul 10, 2002)

*I wasn't online yesterday, so here's my entry into this fine discussion...*

This argument is absurd!!! 

Did Krause just begin to dislike MJ in the past few months???

No? Then why did he wait so long to ban players from Hoops and Jordan's evil influence?

If Krause's secret motivation was simply to keep players away from MJ, *he would have placed Hoops the Gym off-limits LAST YEAR!* If he just wanted to be specious, he would have used the first available opportunity (Crawford's injury) to execute his personal vendetta.

Two serious injuries to two promising players in two summers... and people think Krause needs hidden motivation. Please. :uhoh:


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

Krause better start treating his players like grown me instead of children. By not allowing gym rats to play basketball w/ players the want to play against, he's not helping his ability to sign the better free agents. When money is identical, players start looking for the intangibles when deciding a new club. 

If Grove was correct about Mason's shoulder, maybe we should start questioning the Bulls medical staff instead of safety issues at Hoops. 

Krause has never been a favorite of mine, so I could be biased. But IMO we still aren't attractive to quality free agents, Krause's Hopps edict is just another mark against him.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Krazy!!!</b>!
> Good morning truebluefan!!!!


Good morning krazy!!


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>L.O.B</b>!
> Krause better start treating his players like grown me instead of children. By not allowing gym rats to play basketball w/ players the want to play against, he's not helping his ability to sign the better free agents. When money is identical, players start looking for the intangibles when deciding a new club.
> 
> If Grove was correct about Mason's shoulder, maybe we should start questioning the Bulls medical staff instead of safety issues at Hoops.
> ...


I agree 100%

From 
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...s/cs-020911bulls.story?coll=cs-home-headlines


> Krause defended his decision to make Hoops The Gym off-limits, despite the high-caliber NBA competition there.
> 
> "It's nice to play in the summer, but it's not the most important thing," Krause said.


 Is this a joke?

BTW - Grove is the guy that took Curry and put him on a plan that replaced the kid's baby fat with a whole lot of muscle.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree 100%
> ...


Too add to this....

[from today Sun-Times article]
"C'mon, does anybody in basketball not know who [Grover] is?" Cowen asked. "He's worked with three of the Bulls' last five draft picks: Eddy Curry, Hassell and Mason.

"Everything is set for you here. You stretch and there's a trainer.''

...

Cowen said there wasn't any negligence involved in Mason's injury.

"I can understand [Krause's] frustration, but [Grover] told Roger he should have shoulder surgery when he was working him out in March and April,'' Cowen said. "This was not falling on the floor. This was just the force of making a dunk.

"In addition to [Grover], we have someone from Accelerated Rehabilitation. And there are four Chicago-based NBA refs, and three of them ref our games and were reffing the game when Roger got hurt. It couldn't possibly be more supervised. Why would Jamal come back this summer after last year's injury if he didn't think it was well-organized and supervised?''

Cowen won't be financially affected by Krause's boycott because he allows NBA players to scrimmage for free, but he doesn't want the boycott to create a perception that his gym is unsafe.

"If it's unsafe, then why did Bulls assistant Pete Myers bring over a bunch of young guys to play several times last year?'' Cowen said. "And B.J. [Armstrong] has called to ask if he could bring over some players.''



VD


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

I'm sitting here, eating lunch (man, I still think McDonalds has the best fries!) taking in all the arguments on this thread...

My question is this: Has Krause actually banned the players from Hoops, or has he "strongly suggested they play at the Berto Center"? There's a big difference between the two statements. Personally, I don't think he has the right to ban a player from playing at Hoops, or any other place, unless it is expressly written into that players contract. He is well within his right to express his displeasure that in two consecutive summers, he has lost two young players to injuries and that he would much prefer to have his players work out at the Berto Center.

The injuries to both Crawford and Mason were, to an extent, pre-existing. Crawford sat out the last portion of the 2000-01 season with a bum knee. I believe the official diagnosis was a hyperextended knee. He simply aggravated an already existing condition. Same thing with Mason. He had a bum shoulder and he made it worse.

Now, is working out at Hoops really that beneficial to a young player? I mean, cmon, how much serious basketball is really taking place as much as it is a lot of 1-on-1, playground-type ball being played there? We've all seen recently how much better the playground style of basketball is as compared to the team-orientated style of, say, Yugoslavia, Argentina, or Spain. (note that last statement was sarcastic) If I'm in Krauses' shoes, I want my players at my facility, working out with my trainers and working on their games with their own teammates. I don't think that's too unreasonable. I'd much rather my player spend his time lifting weights, working on his conditioning and practicing the fundamentals of the game with his teammates rather than working on his latest windmill dunk or killer crossover. I'd much prefer if my guys could make a friggin free-throw once in a while!


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> I'm sitting here, eating lunch (man, I still think McDonalds has the best fries!) taking in all the arguments on this thread...
> 
> ....
> ...


This is not a simple case of gymrats wanting to play some ball at the YMCA. This is young NBA players trying to prove themselves against NBA stars and the best ever (MJ). Sorry but this has nothing to do with team-oriented style of basketball in Yugoslavia, Argentina, or Spain. That topic is another thread all by itself.

You are implying that by these young players playing at Hoops, they are worsening their fundamentals. Therein, you are also implying that playing 3 on 3 drills at the Berto w/ scrubs will improve their fundamentals. Both are entirely untrue.

VD


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> We've all seen recently how much better the playground style of basketball is as compared to the team-orientated style of, say, Yugoslavia, Argentina, or Spain. (note that last statement was sarcastic) If I'm in Krauses' shoes, I want my players at my facility, working out with my trainers and working on their games with their own teammates. I don't think that's too unreasonable. I'd much rather my player spend his time lifting weights, working on his conditioning and practicing the fundamentals of the game with his teammates rather than working on his latest windmill dunk or killer crossover.


First, if we really want to emulate the European leagues, then the league and the players association need to get a new agreement that allows for extended practice in the summer time. Other than a few mini-camps and summer league, there are restrictions on the interaction between players and coaches during the offseason. Same applies in high school and NCAA as well.

Second, despite the above, based upon various accounts, the coaches are able to spend some time with the players on the court for instructional purposes during the summer. But it ain't the same.

Third, no one is arguing against a good bulk of the time in the summer should be spent weight training and working on individual skills at Berto.

Fourth, at a minimum, full court basketball is great cardio work which is needed. If Krause feels like all cardio work should be done on a machine (bike, stepper) to limit injury, he should say so. 

Fifth, while I am *speculating* to some extent, I see no reason to think that good solid play is not rewarded at Hoops the Gym. Winners stay on. A twelve foot jumper counts for as many points as windmill. Jordan plays a lot and his game is almost all mid-range jumpers at this point. Jordan & Crawford were a legend last summer and I have never seen Craw dunk. Therefore, ball at Hoops, at a minimum is good cardio and will likely improve baskeball skills as well.

So maybe Krause has good reasons for banning the play most of which he has yet to disclose and will work to make Berto an even better envirnment for the Bulls. Or maybe Krause is exerting his power without it making a heck of a lot of sense unless one considers his personal grudges.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Yeah. And like the Euro leagues lets take 15 year olds and make them pros and train them year round, so that they have "all the fundamentals". johnston, i know you are advoctaing this, I am just venting at nothing in particular.

I am sick of hearing that. It is much like the internation system for soccer. The European model is to baskically take talented chicldren and make the de facto pros as soon as possible. There are full time schools set up by pro teams and the talent is sifted to find the kds good enough. If a system like that were set up in the US it would cause a riot. Think, Tennis in the US with Bolliteri, and that is what it is like in Europe. I lived there for years so, yes, I do have first hand knowledge.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

To get back on topic, I think Krause is going to adamant in his decision to not have his guys at Hoops. I don't think anything is going to change that. I feel those guys can get a lot of confidence there, and to me that is integral in the success of an NBA player.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> This is not a simple case of gymrats wanting to play some ball at the YMCA. This is young NBA players trying to prove themselves against NBA stars and the best ever (MJ). Sorry but this has nothing to do with team-oriented style of basketball in Yugoslavia, Argentina, or Spain. That topic is another thread all by itself.
> ...



Fascinating. FIrst of all, I did not state that playing pickup games at Hoops worsens their fundamentals. What I did say was that it certainly doesn't help. Given a fixed amount of time that a player has, they will improve their game far more if they spend their time in the gym working on the form of their shot. Shooting free throws until their arms hurt. Working on their conditioning. Running drills. Moreso than playing in pickup games - even if those games are with proven NBA players. Sure, working on the form of your shot may not have the glitz and glamour (or as you like to state it, the *blingbling*) of playing against the likes of MJ and Ray Allen, but in the end the time spent actually working on the basics of the game will serve a young player better than trying to beat the MJ's and Ray Allens of the world in isolation.

And forgive me if I'm wrong, but working on fundaments of the game should be required for all players. Running 3 on 3 drills with your teammates can be very effective. The point of the drills isn't the level of the player your facing as much as it is learning how to fill lanes, how to set picks and free up a player. How to box out to get a rebound and how to make a proper outlet pass. Getting familiar with your teammates - THE BASICS.

How you arive at the at these untruths is, as I said, amazing. Apparently you enjoy a sloppy, playground, ESPN highlight filled game as opposed to the way the game was intended to be played. I suppose that is your perrogative.

No need to take potshots at another poster, Flash. We've had enough bad blood on this thread. Besides, you know better. Thanks, TB#1


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> Yeah. And like the Euro leagues lets take 15 year olds and make them pros and train them year round, so that they have "all the fundamentals". johnston, i know you are advoctaing this, I am just venting at nothing in particular.


I am not adocating a complete change to the European way of training ballers. I am only pointing out (as you have as well) that the differences in the US vs. international programs are much more profound and will not be solved by having the Bulls youngsters run full-court or play 3 on 3 at Berto instead of Hoops during the off-season.


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## Kramer (Jul 5, 2002)

Just a side note... Did anyone notice the article about Hoops that mentioned Crawford hadn't practiced at the Berto Center at all since he returned from Summer League? That's about a 1 1/2 months of NOT working out at the Berto Center. What's up with that? He only was healthy for like 2 months last year... Doesn't he WANT to get familiar playing alongside Tyson, Eddy, Erob, etc.? Although it's kind of ridiculous that playing at Hoops had to be banned, I'm glad Krause did it. Maybe if people like him actually worked out at the Berto Center a few times a week and went to Hoops only a couple times, it wouldn't have been banned. I'd much rather have Crawford learn how to play in the triangle with his teammates than running-and-gunning with random All-Stars.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

It's sometimes hard to believe how the great players of the past became as great as they were without Hoops the Gym to play at over the summer.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

I think a small part of it is becuase credit is being given to Grover and to MJ for players improving while playing at Hoops. I heard a lot of talk about Antoine Walkers summer commitment there and how hsi game imporved from it, and you have Crawford saying how much better he got playing there with MJ.

If you were Krause, would you find that acceptable?

And Kneepad, the thing is, you have the Greatest there, so it sort of gives it instant credibility.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Congratulations Flash. 

Like so many other posters here, you were personally insulted by the simple fact that someone here disagrees with your opinion. Fine.

I am trying to argue that fact that the certain young Bulls players benefit more from summer sessions at Hoops, versus a summer at the Berto. This is from:

1) Bulls' player quotes - Fizer and Hassell
2) Bulls' player improvement - most notably Crawford, who even after last summer's injury would frequent the gym; the fact is the confidence he gained last summer running w/ MJ improved his game
3) Other NBA players improvement - two good examples are Artest and Walker; both enjoyed their best years last season... Artest improved after a summer of guarding MJ and Walker ran with MJ the whole summer
4) Coaches opinions - sans Jerry K, other staff w/in the organization (Myers and BJ) are not averse to bringing their players there
5) Organization at Hoops - there are always games there w/ good players, its a known fact that full court games of any sort are hard to come by at the Berto
6) Trainers at Hoops - Tim Grover is not only MJ's trainer, but that of 3 Chicago Bulls

Per your fundamentals argument, of course young players need to be taught such things. Free throw shooting, team D, offensive spacing & system, etc. But a summer full of drills and 3 on 3 will not help the young kids as much running at Hoops. Though a case can be made for the likes of Dolly, Curry, and Chandler (who are all in need of footwork, positioning, and post moves)... I don't see the same with Fizer and Crawford. They WANT to play at Hoops. And considering they are grown men who are free to make such a decision, then I find it extremely unfortunate that they are not given the choice to do so.


VD


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> I think a small part of it is becuase credit is being given to Grover and to MJ for players improving while playing at Hoops. I heard a lot of talk about Antoine Walkers summer commitment there and how hsi game imporved from it...


I _know_. Makes one wonder why every NBA players isn't beating a path to bask in the aura of Grover and The Greatest. It's obviously been proven it's the only way to improve one's game over the summer.

Of course, nevermind that Antoine Walker's summers prior to last were likely spent laying on the couch playing video games.



> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> ... and you have Crawford saying how much better he got playing there with MJ. If you were Krause, would you find that acceptable?


It's all relative. Crawford strikes me as a somewhat immature, naive, kid who couldn't help but have been star-struck playing with Michael Jordan. Crawford is young enough to probably have had MJ's poster on his bedroom wall growing up. And then to have MJ actually single out his play-- well, the kid's head had to be in the clouds. What'd you expect him to say?

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that players can't improve playing at Hoops. But I think veteran players are more liable to benefit than most of the young Bulls players who need instruction and drilling (yes, drilling) in fundamentals.

On a side note... someone earlier in this thread I believe indicated that their was some limit on the time NBA players could spend working with coaches. I am aware of such limits in college, but not in the NBA. Someone please set me straight if I am misinformed.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Kneepad,

Grover has proven that he can help. MJ has proven his work ethic. Players don't have to do it that way to improve, but it is an option. Why eliminate that option all together? Krause isn't giving them the choice in the matter though, now is he? As time goes on, Krause's backhanded insult at Hoops the Gym, when he said that he had no idea what goes on there but the Berto has trainers and is controlled, looks more ridiculous.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> Grover has proven that he can help. MJ has proven his work ethic. Players don't have to do it that way to improve, but it is an option. Why eliminate that option all together?


The biggest reason has been given over and over in this thread, but you refuse to accept it. For whatever reason, there are quite a few injuries that have occured at the place. Not little things, either, but things like torn ACL's, blown out shoulders, and broken ribs. Maybe the competition gets a little too intense for players who are not in in-season shape? Maybe it's just dumb luck. Who knows?

I believe that Krause has considered more than one factor in making this decision (contrary to what many here seem to believe, it is possible to consider all evidence available in making a decision.) Call that specious if you will, but I consider it to be just evaluating all the facts.

I believe that Krause never liked Bulls players playing at Hoops, but tolerated it in an effort to appease his players who obviously liked playing there. If I were Krause, I too would have been hesitant about letting my very young, very impressionable players be exposed to a guy who has shown a decided lack of class and respect for his former employer. Who knows what MJ might attempt to fill a young players head with? Added on top of that you now have the injury issue, which I think may have simply been the straw that broke the camel's back.

Do I think it's unfortunate that it came to this? Yes. Do I mind? No. I have complete confidence that Bulls players will be able to develop to their full potential without playing at Hoops.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Good post.



> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> If I were Krause, I too would have been hesitant about letting my very young, very impressionable players be exposed


However, again, these are grown men who will make their own decisions ultimitely. With Hoops being banned, is a guy like Crawford more or less likely to look upon Krause favorably. More or less likely to be open to suggestion that Krause does not have their best interests at heart.

IMHO, one could argue that freedom is more likely to lead to the truth than censorship.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

specious
1 obsolete : SHOWY
2 : having deceptive attraction or allure
3 : having a false look of truth or genuineness : SOPHISTIC

I'm getting pretty much "specious-ed" out here.

Hoops the Gym is the best place in Chicago to play extremely high level basketball. There's nothing wrong with the gym itself...it's a tremendous gym. Bulls' players keep getting broken there.

These are facts. Now for my opinions.

I think Krause overreacted. It wouldn't surprise me if Reinsdorf overreacted first...maybe something like, "Jerry K, if I read in tomorrow's paper that Jalen, Tyson or Eddy got seriously injured at Hoops, I might get angry. That place has chewed up enough of my money."

Personally, I don't mind the decision, though I would rather the prohibition be against ALL non-Berto high impact pick-up games. Training camp is getting very close and we need our guys to stay healthy.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bull12.html
> 
> Interesting article. More fuel for the flames.
> ...


well consider the source when you read whose talking 

is Cowen going to say 

"my gym is a deathtrap for bulls guards" 

no he's going to say whatever to defend the reputation of his place of business

to me it all boils down to security JK doesn't feel all that secure with his players under the watchful(or negligent as is being argued) eye of the man considered his nemisis in MJ 

watch out comic book reference coming up

would batman send his kids to the Joker's sleepaway camp even if he knew the camp was considered the best by some after a couple of batman's kids caught scurvy or got beatup by a crazed dog


i dont think so


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> Congratulations Flash.
> ...


How about this one Vin (apparently, this is kinda like football and basketball, where the person who could have caused the trouble gets off and the person who responds is the one to get called for the foul/penalty/whatever)...

You can disagree with my opinion till the cows come home and I won't take exception to it. In fact, I embrace it. What I do take excpetion to is your asserting that my _opinion_ is untrue. Tell me you don't agree. Call me off my rocker for my views - that's fine. It's impossible to label someones opinion as untrue if that person truly believes it. Besides that, you acknowledge that players benefit from off season training other than pickup games... I get kinda touchy about those sort of things. My apologies. I will curtail any snyde and overtly sarcastic responses in the future...

Rant over...

Onto the subject... I'm not discounting pickup games as being an essential part of a players development. You get better by playing against those better than you. I suppose it's more a question of individual work ethic. 

I don't necessarily agree with Krauses' banning of the players from hoops if that is truly what he has done. As part of an off-season training program, playing pickup games is helpful. It's not everything though. Jordan can still play at a high level not simply because he's Michael Jordan. He's worked his *** off to get where he is. He took his God-given talent and improved upon it. If you look at most every great athlete in any sport you'll find an individual who was tremendously blessed with physical skills, but beyond that, they have a drive to excel, to be the best. Jordan, Jerry Rice, Walter Payton, Emmit Smith - they are all workout nuts.

Frankly, I would think Krause should embrace the fact that his players are trying to go against the best. But I would also think that Krause wants them to be working on other aspects of the game and not just playing pickup games at Hoops all the time.

In the end, I suppose this isn't really and either/or situation as much as it is an "and".


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> ...
> 
> In the end, I suppose this isn't really an either/or situation as much as it is an "and".


Totally agree.

Its too bad the players will no longer have such a choice though. But what's done is done, and we move on.


VD


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## Kramer (Jul 5, 2002)

I think most everyone would agree that a combination of actually playing games along with practicing fundamentals is what would be best for most of the players. One reason why the rest of the world is catching up to U.S. players is because they're working on fundamentals while our kids are playing non-stop on AAU teams. I wish players like Crawford would've shown more dedication to the Bulls team by making some appearances at the Berto Center before this. But, now that our guys can't go to Hoops, maybe they can invite MJ and the gang over to the Berto for a game??? That would solve everyone's problem... not like JK would exactly love the idea though...


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## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kramer</b>!
> ...maybe they can invite MJ and the gang over to the Berto for a game??? That would solve everyone's problem... not like JK would exactly love the idea though...


I can't see MJ being to open to the idea either, lol!


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> Actually MJ has no authority to make decision about where Kwame plays. Krause has more of a right to invoke GM authority to prohibit players from playing at Hoops the Gym.


MJ may have no technical or legitimate authority but has the authority nonetheless in practical terms which equals that of the legitimate authority that Krause may exercise by virtue of his position

Authority and control is such regardless of how it is rooted


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## Kullervo (Sep 12, 2002)

Howdy, all.

Tough ruling by Krause, but I don't see anything wrong with it. Sure, Hoops is an outstanding operation, and the players have all the support they or Krause could ask for in terms of training staff and officiating; the Hoops staff deserves praise for going to the lengths they do. It's a top-notch outfit, and I haven't seen Krause publicly disagree with that.

But who knows what _really_ goes on there amongst NBA players? Maybe the combination of first-rate competition and zero oversight from coaches or team brass is enough for some young players to take unneccessary risks. Maybe they even make friendly wagers (with Jordan there? You think?), which provides extra incentive for overly aggressive play. I don't know. Neither, really, does Hoops. Nor does Krause, which would be enough for me, if I were in his shoes, to say "cool your jets." To put it another, sillier way, if in two straight years two young stars broke their hands applauding Daniel Barenboim, I'd think seriously about issuing a ban on concerts at the CSO.

And who knows how long the ban will last? It's just possible that, after his point is made, Krause will let guys return to Hoops. This just seems like the best way to ensure that they do so with their heads screwed on straight.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

*I, too, find Krause deceptively attractive.....*

.....In all this Krause-bashing and MJ glorifying, we are starting to run short on facts and long on speculation:

*Fact:* Last summer, Crawdad skipped summer leagues to recover from knee injury, but was spotted playing full court games all day long with MJ instead at HOOPS, the Gym.

*Fact:* This summer, Mason knew of his shoulder injury, but played full contact ball despite that fact.

*Fact:* Jordan has -- in the past -- taken advantage of every possible opportunity to bad-mouth Krause and denigrate the Bulls organization.

*Fact:* Fizer, Crawford, and Artest (three Bulls known to frequent Hoops, the Gym) are well known by Bulls fans to be pig-headed when it comes to following the training program the Bulls recommend. Bulls want Artest for "D", he trains at HOOPS to be an offensive juggernaught. Bulls want Fizer to slim and quicken, he continues to bulk up. Bulls want Crawford to beef up and play "D", he continues to shoot skinny mid-range jumpers and flake out on the other end of the court. Pattern? You be the judge. Possibly Jordan has bent the ears of our impressionables with the serpant's tongue of false glory and has undermined their faith in Jerry?

*Fact:* Torn ACL, ruptured shoulder, broken rib.

*Fact:* The Bulls still must pay these players, despite their lack of production.

*Fact:* Call it ownership if you like, but these players are the only assets in Jerry's business. If they are damaged, his business suffers. The money they get paid certainly gives the payer the right to decide to limit the liability of damages rendered outside his company's walls.

This is not a case of civil liberties being violated, folks! It's a matter of grown men refusing to take their responsibilities to their bosses seriously. Unless the next CBA allows that a team is not required to pay the contract of a player who is injured outside the work-place, then Jerry has every right to expect that players who are told not to practice stay away from HOOPS, the Gym. Or any other gym, for that matter.

As for Jerry's "speciousness"... Often -- when the full story is revealed -- it turns out that Jerry has omitted certain information to protect the character of individuals involved. Jordan -- a beneficiary of this policy as regards his gambling habits, womanizing, and poor player relationships -- is one of those who most frequently take every opportunity to bash Krause publicly.

There are too many of us who judge our books by their pretty faces and fail to see the dry-rot inside for lack of opening the binding.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Re: I, too, find Krause deceptively attractive.....*



> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> .....In all this Krause-bashing and MJ glorifying, we are starting to run short on facts and long on speculation:
> 
> *Fact:*
> ...


I bet Krause sees it about the same way.

If not for Jordan, my draft selections of Fizer & Crawford would have really payed off.

If not for Jordan, Mason's chronically injured shoulder would fully heal with just a little rest.

If not for me protecting Jordan, he could not advertise for KMART.

If not for Jordan, this town would love and respect me.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

Excellent post Wynn

I was thinking of making a reply based on what you said but literally took the words right out of my mouth 

Props


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

There is no "I" in team


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Nice post Wynn!!


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## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

*Fact:* Great post Wynn.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> There is no "I" in team


Sure there is... Itz all 'bout tha tizeam foo! Now do you see where AI gets it? 

Practice? We're talkin' 'bout practice? Not even a game... practice? We're talkin' 'bout practice? Practice man. Practice.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Nice post Wynn. Well said.

I agree that Jerry K was acting well within his authority as GM to not allow his players to go to Hoops.

You did however mix in your opinion w/ some of your facts though.

Cases in point:


> Jordan -- a beneficiary of this policy as regards his gambling habits, womanizing, and poor player relationships -- is one of those who most frequently take every opportunity to bash Krause publicly


While this may be true, it is not the case in this situation. Jordan has not publically stated anything. Tim Grover and Cowens (Hoops owner) however have issued statements.



> b]Fact:[/b] Fizer, Crawford, and Artest (three Bulls known to frequent Hoops, the Gym) are well known by Bulls fans to be pig-headed when it comes to following the training program the Bulls recommend. Bulls want Artest for "D", he trains at HOOPS to be an offensive juggernaught. Bulls want Fizer to slim and quicken, he continues to bulk up. Bulls want Crawford to beef up and play "D", he continues to shoot skinny mid-range jumpers and flake out on the other end of the court. Pattern? You be the judge. Possibly Jordan has bent the ears of our impressionables with the serpant's tongue of false glory and has undermined their faith in Jerry?


Artest improved his defense after one summer w/ MJ. He accidentally broke MJ's rib, not the other way around. So if Artest doesn't play last summer w/ MJ and improve his game and confidence (both defensively and offensively)... there's no Jalen Rose at trade deadline. Yes Artest is at times atrocious on the offensive end, but his game did improve this season.

Crawford bulked up last offseason putting on 10lbs of muscle. Jerry K proclaimed him a 'new player' and said 'he now has muscles'. I will still argue that running w/ MJ and 'Toine all summer improved his confidence after a shaky first season.

Fizer has a questionable work ethic as it is. But he did try to 'slim down and quicken' his rookie year while trying to play the 3, which was a disaster. And his progression as a player has nothing to do w/ Jordan somehow undermining his game. Puh-lease.

I agree with many of your points Wynn, I really do. But to suggest that Jordan is trying to undermine current Bulls' players and impede their development is garbage. Jordan has at time spoken out against management, and yes unfairly at times against Jerry K, but I have yet to see any of this ire be directed at the Bulls' players themselves. That is your opinion, and cannot be judged as remotely factual.


VD


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

*Vin!*

Nicely and fairly played! Thank you.



> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> Nice post Wynn. Well said.
> 
> I agree that Jerry K was acting well within his authority as GM to not allow his players to go to Hoops.
> ...


Yes. You are right. This is one of the reasons I find it so interesting that much of this discussion has centered around the strained relationship between Jerry and Michael. To my knowledge, Michael is not involved at all specific to this incident. I only mention Michael's undermining Jerry (not the players -- I truly believe he wants to help them and then lure them to the Wiz) in public as background for why Jerry may already be inclined against Hoops, the Gym.

By Michael belittling and publicly feuding with Jerry, he forces players to split their loyalties. We're all aware of Michael's charisma, and Jerry's lack. The players' lack of respect for Jerry's wishes is shown in the undertones of their off the court actions in their training schedules and interviews.



> Artest improved his defense after one summer w/ MJ. He accidentally broke MJ's rib, not the other way around. So if Artest doesn't play last summer w/ MJ and improve his game and confidence (both defensively and offensively)... there's no Jalen Rose at trade deadline. Yes Artest is at times atrocious on the offensive end, but his game did improve this season.


Yes. Artest did the breaking. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. just that in two summers we have heard of these three injuries. Also, Artest *did* improve -- offensively *and* defensively. How much can be attributed to Hoops, the Gym and Micheal? We'll never know. How much did Artest respect Jerry? ...... 



> Crawford bulked up last offseason putting on 10lbs of muscle. Jerry K proclaimed him a 'new player' and said 'he now has muscles'. I will still argue that running w/ MJ and 'Toine all summer improved his confidence after a shaky first season.


As I remember, Crawford began to bulk only *after* the torn ACL, when Jerry had a captive, sedentary, and thoroughly chastised child on his hands. I think losing Tim Floyd had more to do with his boost in confidence, but that's opinion. I do know that Jerry has consistently referred to JC as a "Guard", while Crawford maintained "point guard" status for himself until the Jay Williams signing became imminent. I'm surprised JC hasn't re-injured the ACL from all the back-pedaling he's been doing since.

Needless to say, I'm not a fan of Crawford's maturity level, though I think he has very good skillz.



> Fizer has a questionable work ethic as it is. But he did try to 'slim down and quicken' his rookie year while trying to play the 3, which was a disaster. And his progression as a player has nothing to do w/ Jordan somehow undermining his game. Puh-lease.


You're welcome. Fizer definitely devoted verbage to the slim-and-quicken, but never produced. Meantime, his game never modified itself. Again, I apologize if I implied Jordan undermined Fizer's game. I did not intend to. Rather, hanging with Michael may have undermined Fizer's respect for Jerry. This is a very different thing.



> I agree with many of your points Wynn, I really do. But to suggest that Jordan is trying to undermine current Bulls' players and impede their development is garbage. Jordan has at time spoken out against management, and yes unfairly at times against Jerry K, but I have yet to see any of this ire be directed at the Bulls' players themselves. That is your opinion, and cannot be judged as remotely factual.
> 
> 
> VD


A misunderstanding. I agree that for Michael to undermine the player development is a ridiculous notion. However, his very presence undermines the authority Jerry has with his players. Jerry says "don't play", MJ says "what can it hurt?". Jerry says "Crawford needs to work on fundamentals and defense", MJ implies that JC is the next sliced bread.

I will admit a personal dislike for MJ. The way that he, Pippen, and Jackson referred to Floyd as Pink Floyd (among other things) showed his enormous ego and lack of respect for others. I'll admit he's the hardest working ball-player I've ever seen, but to elevate him to hero status based on basketball talent alone is a mistake in my book. I still hold that triumvirate responsible for the rapid decline of the Bulls. These are all opinions. I was just trying to point out the facts....

Of the Bulls I've heard rumored to be at HOOPS, the Gym, I only see Hassell in the long-term plans. The fact that JC has not been at Berto for a month and a half sours me even more on this kid. Frankly, it seems the guys are going because they chafe under the regime of Krause's work-outs. Artest, JC, and Fizer all represent a class of player who could elevate to all-star level if they focused on solid fundamentals and team ball. All three seem unable to subjugate their egos for the betterment of the team.

Is this what is fostered by playing at HOOPS, the Gym? I guess we need to see if Hassell turns into a guy with a much higher opinion of himself than his play merits....

_Thanks to all others for your kind words... _


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> ....
> 
> Of the Bulls I've heard rumored to be at HOOPS, the Gym, I only see Hassell in the long-term plans. The fact that JC has not been at Berto for a month and a half sours me even more on this kid. Frankly, it seems the guys are going because they chafe under the regime of Krause's work-outs. Artest, JC, and Fizer all represent a class of player who could elevate to all-star level if they focused on solid fundamentals and team ball. All three seem unable to subjugate their egos for the betterment of the team.
> ...


Wynn, off the hook once again.

As a pure basketball player, MJ has no equal. As a person, MJ leaves much to be desired. But I will credit him based on the former, and tolerate his hubris for the most part b/c he is the greatest ever. This being said, his 'unkind words' for Jerry K are garbage, and its sad that there is no acceptable level of respect between a great player and a very good GM.

I am in complete agreement that only Hassell (of the aforementioned players) fits in to the Bulls' long term plans. As much as I've grown a bit attached to the Bulls' young players... in reality we certainly cannot keep all of them. Hassell has shown humility, maturity, and a complimentary (team-oriented) game which puts some of our young pouters to shame. I hope we keep him around for a long time.

Peace brotha.


VD


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> He also hasn't banned players from working out elsewhere, just Hoops the Gym.


Hoops the gym is the only place in Chicago where NBA players are regularly playing summer ball.

It's also the only placee where two players he was counting on have been injured.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> As time goes on, Krause's backhanded insult at Hoops the Gym, when he said that he had no idea what goes on there but the Berto has trainers and is controlled, looks more ridiculous.


I think thats because your on the Bulls board to keep trouble stirred up and seeing things that way helps your cause.



Wouldn't this be a more peaceful board without him?? I'm stunned that the mods can't see what he's here for.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

gettinbranded,

I made the claims before Hoops the Gym responded. Is it my fault he is using the same logic I am using? I remember similar claims when I blasted the signings of Oakley and Anthony. When I was proven right in those instances, I was told that I would be a poor sport to rub it in, and I didn't. I think once again as more facts about this are brought out, especially what Hoops does offer, I will be proven right in my claims again.


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## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> gettinbranded,
> 
> I made the claims before Hoops the Gym responded. Is it my fault he is using the same logic I am using? I remember similar claims when I blasted the signings of Oakley and Anthony. When I was proven right in those instances, I was told that I would be a poor sport to rub it in, and I didn't. I think once again as more facts about this are brought out, especially what Hoops does offer, I will be proven right in my claims again.


Say what you want about Oakley, but as I wrote last December, IMHO Krause brought him in to run his mouth. Oak's ramblings turned the team against Floyd and got him to quit, which definitely helped the team.

And reporters flocked to Oak last season, keeping them away from Tyson and Eddy. There was one well-documented instance last season when a reporter asked Eddy a question and Oak jumped in and said "don't ask him that".

Say what you want, but Krause *obviously* didn't have a problem with Oak's actions- if he did, why the hell has Oak been a regular at the Berto this summer, even though he's no longer under contract with the Bulls?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, players are not allowed to workout with coaches on their team until training camp begins. I know I have read this somewhere before, I can't cite where it's from, coaches can watch players but technically aren't suppossed to "coach" until training camp. I suspect however that this rule gets about as much respect as the old "a player has to be injured to be on the ir" that was changed this year. One also has to wonder if this rule applies to someone like Bill Wennington who is a "mentor" and not a coach.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> Yes, players are not allowed to workout with coaches on their team until training camp begins. I know I have read this somewhere before, I can't cite where it's from, coaches can watch players but technically aren't suppossed to "coach" until training camp.


Thanks Ace. Not that I doubt your word, but I would still like to see this cited somewhere (if anyone comes across a link please post it). It seems to be a very unforceable rule as you point out. And what about the rookie camps and summer leagues? Assistant coaches usually coach the summer leagues, do they not?

I could see mandatory practices or workouts not being allowed due to the CBA, but voluntary ones as well? Doesn't make sense to me.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

I think the logic of it is this.

You will see more and more coaches trying to make it a year round thing. The Players Union probably set it up so that coaches could not force players into working out over the summer. The best way to do that and get rid of voluntary contact, which may not be all that voluntary, is to ban head coaches from working with their players period.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> 
> Thanks Ace. Not that I doubt your word, but I would still like to see this cited somewhere (if anyone comes across a link please post it). It seems to be a very unforceable rule as you point out. And what about the rookie camps and summer leagues? Assistant coaches usually coach the summer leagues, do they not?
> 
> I could see mandatory practices or workouts not being allowed due to the CBA, but voluntary ones as well? Doesn't make sense to me.


I actually have a copy of the CBA (sick, i know) and took a quick look. (PM me if anyone wants a PDF copy)

A few notes:

* Players can not be paid for off-season workouts beyond a 2 week skills and conditioning session
* Summer league is tightly defined. (ex. A team can have a max of 3 vets on the team. A vet is defined. The vet needs to sign a waiver indicating voluntary participation.)

As for off-season voluntary workouts, I couldn't find any specific prohabitions despite, like Ace, seeming to hear this in the past. And I certainly could have missed the wording as well - it's over 200 pages.

I do wonder if it is allowed and would be tolerated by the players association, why aren't some teams holding "voluntary" practices year-round?


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> I do wonder if it is allowed and would be tolerated by the players association, why aren't some teams holding "voluntary" practices year-round?


A possible explanation is that many teams, especially veteran teams, would not find it beneficial. There is something to be said for allowing players to get away from the game a bit over the summer to avoid burn-out.

That is not to say I believe players don't need to work on their games year-round, because I do. But there's a difference between working individually and as a team.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BullsNews</b>!
> 
> 
> Say what you want about Oakley, but as I wrote last December, IMHO Krause brought him in to run his mouth. Oak's ramblings turned the team against Floyd and got him to quit, which definitely helped the team.
> ...


Awesome rejoinder.


---------

It's just not right...


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## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>gettinbranded</b>!
> 
> 
> Awesome rejoinder.
> ...


Thanks, GB- I'm still awaiting someone's explanation as to how Oak was such a (nuisance, distraction, waste of money, you pick the word), yet Krause still has him working at the Berto Center this summer? 

It kind of lends a little credence to the article I wrote the day Floyd quit...

http://www.insidehoops.com/nba/articles2001/nba122701.shtml


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BullsNews</b>!
> 
> 
> Thanks, GB- I'm still awaiting someone's explanation as to how Oak was such a (nuisance, distraction, waste of money, you pick the word), yet Krause still has him working at the Berto Center this summer?
> [/url]


IMHO using roughly $6M of our cap space last summer on Oakley was a waste of money and could have been used more wisely. (e.g. see Pistons getting Cliff R)

And I don't see how Oakley's gym of choice effects this.


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## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

Well, I guess you missed my point.

If Krause viewed Oak as such a problem last season, why is he working out with the Bulls this summer? 

My point is that although many Bulls fans (and certain Bulls haters) thought Oak was a huge distraction last season, but obviously Krause doesn't see it that way, or Oak wouldn't be working out at the Berto, would he? 



I would hardly call it Oak's "gym of choice"- it's the BULLS facility, don't you think that the Bulls decide who works out there?


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BullsNews</b>!
> Well, I guess you missed my point.


I was just trying to oblige your request...



> Originally posted by <b>BullsNews</b>!
> I'm still awaiting someone's explanation as to how Oak was such a (nuisance, distraction, *waste of money*, you pick the word), yet Krause still has him working at the Berto Center this summer?


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BullsNews</b>!
> Well, I guess you missed my point.
> 
> If Krause viewed Oak as such a problem last season, why is he working out with the Bulls this summer?
> ...


BullsNews,

Krause couldnt stop Oak from working out at Berto even if he wanted to. All NBA facilities are open to NBA players during the offseason.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> 
> 
> BullsNews,
> ...


I'm assuming that's a CBA provision, but does it apply even to players not under contract?


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Applies to FA I am sure. A player is not a pariah while looking for a team. Maybe if Krause renounced his rights.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Well, that's reason #8982984 why it's great to be an NBA player, then.


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## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> 
> 
> BullsNews,
> ...


That *may* be true, but I don't believe for one second that Oak would be spending his summer at the Berto if Krause wanted him to not be there.


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