# Strong Johnson



## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

With his thickness through the trunk and his length - plus his strength and balance , JJ should have a post up role on this team 

When you also take his passing game into account he could be _the_ guy we use to play inside / out 

JJ as our post man ? 

Could he deliver ?

Discuss


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

If he's playing a significant role in our offense, then either he is just a phenom, or someone is really disappointing us. 

I can dream about what he might be, but I just can't expect that he'll be ready to do something in a reliable fashion from the get go. 

Derrick is Derrick. And Elton was Elton. I don't think Mr. Johnson is at that level now, when he wasn't even close to there in College. But, no harm in dreaming....


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

He definitely should have a post-up game. If he doesn't already, he must develop one.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

yodurk said:


> He definitely should have a post-up game. If he doesn't already, he must develop one.


But we didn't see one in Summer League, and he said on media day that what we saw in Summer League is his game.

Could this be why he didn't stand out more in College, since what you wanted from him because of his size, he didn't have?


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Now I know why your called the sausage king of Chicago.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Now I know why your called the sausage king of Chicago.


:rotf:


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Now I know why your called the sausage king of Chicago.


I'm afraid you're right. I wasn't reading his original post correctly.

But I take a certain amount of pride in that, really....


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

Good Hope said:


> If he's playing a significant role in our offense, then either he is just a phenom, or someone is really disappointing us.
> 
> I can dream about what he might be, but I just can't expect that he'll be ready to do something in a reliable fashion from the get go.
> 
> Derrick is Derrick. And Elton was Elton. I don't think Mr. Johnson is at that level now, when he wasn't even close to there in College. But, no harm in dreaming....


I dunno Hope ...

I think we will have a really short rotation this year and Johnson will be a big part of it 

*

Noah
Thomas
Deng
Salmons
Rose

6th : Hinrich
7th : Miller
8th Johnson

*

Minor minutes Pargo, Gibson and Gray

Johnson is going to play . And probably for around 22mpg. 

Playing these minutes he is going to have some significance within our offense. 

If he says " Summer League is my game " then he may need to re-think this statement ( if he was intending to be literal ) . Why ? Whilst he showed a nice ability to push the ball and create for others his own jumper was not super reliable , and , we already have multiple options of players that will handle and dictate the the pace of the offense and the creation of opportunities of others. Its a nice skill for him to have - but we don't especially need him for that 

We need him to be the first forward reserve - across both the 3 and the 4 and we need him to be versatile where the match ups warrant - and it will mainly be in structured half court sets.

And , given we don't have a post threat and his physical tools and abilities make him the most logical candidate - if we occasionally require an inside / outside option then I would hope JJ sets his big trunk/*** in the post and uses this long arms to create some post offense or use the option of his passing game that he has shown us to swing it back outside for the shot if its there.

We can't be running push tempo pick up Summer League style during the regular season


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

Eighth man playing 22 minutes a game? That's a lot, no? 

And while I agree with you and Yodurk that he must develop a post game, I take his comments about Summer league to mean that he doesn't have one right now -- not really.

So, VDN will have to pick his spots when to play him and how to fit him in.

Agreed that his passing game will be a plus.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

I see minutes thusly:

Noah : 32
Tyrus : 32
Deng : 36
Salmons :33
Rose : 38

Hinrich 25
Miller 22
Johnson 22

Pargoo, Vaj and Vanilla Thunder will only be playing accidentally or if there are injuries or to give some of the guys in the rotation a rest


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Regarding post play - I'm not saying he won't be able to go to it a few times against other 3's, but I wouldn't expect him to develop into an anchor down there... I'd be happy if he filled the Nocioni role offensively with a bit more efficiency and ball control.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

Dornado said:


> Regarding post play - I'm not saying he won't be able to go to it a few times against other 3's, but I wouldn't expect him to develop into an anchor down there... I'd be happy if he filled the Nocioni role offensively with a bit more efficiency and ball control.


Hmm, that's an interesting perspective on where he'll fit in. 

But he's not going to be shooting threes, I hope. 

I think they'll have to be creative with him. He has some possibilities, for sure, but I keep coming back to the problem that the things you want him to be able to do, he doesn't do that well. He does other things pretty well, but is he the guy you want doing those things? And maybe, that sums up "Nocioni-like"?


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

SausageKingofChicago said:


> I see minutes thusly:
> 
> Noah : 32
> Tyrus : 32
> ...


That's on the money with what I'd expect, save for one thing -- Hinrich should, and probably will, get 30-32 minutes per game. Those extra minutes will come from Deng primarily (32, instead of 36) since Salmons will still play some SF minutes. IMO, of course.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Good Hope said:


> Hmm, that's an interesting perspective on where he'll fit in.
> 
> But he's not going to be shooting threes, I hope.


JJ likely won't shoot or make many threes as a rookie, however you can tell he has a very smooth, high-arching jumper with decent form overall. It's the type of jumper that looks like he can develop a good 3-pt shot eventually. 

And yes, I don't think he has much of a post game right now. I expect coaches will press him to develop it over time, as many bigger wing players do. 

Btw, great title SausageKing.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Good Hope said:


> Hmm, that's an interesting perspective on where he'll fit in.
> 
> But he's not going to be shooting threes, I hope.
> 
> I think they'll have to be creative with him. He has some possibilities, for sure, but I keep coming back to the problem that the things you want him to be able to do, he doesn't do that well. He does other things pretty well, but is he the guy you want doing those things? And maybe, that sums up "Nocioni-like"?


I guess I'm speaking more generally, in terms of providing an offensive spark/scoring from the bench, and being a versatile offensive player near the hoop and on the perimeter - not necessarily emulating every aspect of Nocioni's game, or sharing the exact strengths and weaknesses.... for example, I don't care if it is a 3 pointer or an 18 foot jump shot.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

JJ will play. Can he post up? I dont know. I know he can really push the ball and slash. He can probably out run a lot of the pfs in the league! 

I agree Sausage, that JJ will play and get 20 plus minutes a game. 

My main concern about his game is his shooting! He can really stink it up at times, but his ability to get to the foul line will be a plus!


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

I'm looking for some hype about Johnson from camp. Anybody hear or see anything?

Like when Duhon said that Tyrus is going to be a major player 15 games into the season...Duhon was a jokester like that.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

Good Hope said:


> I'm looking for some hype about Johnson from camp. Anybody hear or see anything?
> 
> Like when Duhon said that Tyrus is going to be a major player 15 games into the season...Duhon was a jokester like that.







re: Duhon


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

My wish is KC's command!!!!



> "We've already put in probably three or four times more than they did in summer league," coach Vinny Del ***** said. "He's going to make mistakes, and he has to work through them."
> 
> That doesn't sound like it will be an issue with Johnson, who Del ***** said arrives at each practice looking "like a kid the night before Christmas."
> 
> ...


Cmon, I want to hear that he's tearing Deng up!

Well, it sounds like it's going to take some time for him to find his place.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

Good Hope said:


> Hmm, that's an interesting perspective on where he'll fit in.
> 
> But he's not going to be shooting threes, I hope.
> 
> I think they'll have to be creative with him. He has some possibilities, for sure, but I keep coming back to the problem that the things you want him to be able to do, he doesn't do that well. He does other things pretty well, but is he the guy you want doing those things? And maybe, that sums up "Nocioni-like"?


This deserves a bump for the title alone, I guess.

But in the midst of the frenzy of speculation regarding free agents, we have one rookie at the All-Star festivities, but it's the wrong one!

In his article about Taj, Sam comes back to the issue of what has happened with Johnson so far.



> His answer surprised me.
> 
> “It’s been my fault,” he said. “I never want to get time when some one goes down. But if you are going to lose go out there and compete and lose with some dignity. You gotta come out there and want to be a pro and work like a pro, pay attention. I didn’t. Some of my immature ways, I let it go out the window. Ever since then I’ve been more focused and willing to learn and it’s been paying off some and I’ll just do what I do.”


Sam's point is that Taj doesn't have as much athletically, but is starting over Tyrus and James because...he pays attention, works hard and wants to help the team. 

Jib rules.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Taj is definitely a "jib" guy (ahh... good old jib) but I hope we don't lose perspective on the relative ceilings of these guys... Taj is old enough to be James Johnson's dad.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

Dornado said:


> Taj is definitely a "jib" guy (ahh... good old jib) but I hope we don't lose perspective on the relative ceilings of these guys... Taj is old enough to be James Johnson's dad.


JJ is going to be 23 in a week. Not exactly a young rookie. Gibson is 24.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Hopefully a couple of trades gives Johnson some playing time but if not he needs to work on his game in the D-League, no reason to have him rot on the bench.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Hopefully a couple of trades gives Johnson some playing time but if not he needs to work on his game in the D-League, no reason to have him rot on the bench.


We shall see if a trade or two puts him on the court. If not, yes! D-league cant hurt. I am for that.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Yeah, I've been disappointed with JJ so far, but dude got so much talent and is cool as hell to talk to.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Still the best thread title ever.

IMO, JJ does have jib. Taj has "more jib", but JJ seems to have a good attitude and cares about the team. 

He has really had difficulty adjusting to the pace of NBA games. His decisions are rushed. And his jumper and finish ability are not up to snuff yet.

His athleticism still looks very good though, and I can't deny those ballhandling abilities.

JJ seems like one of those guys who could go from crappy to very good in a very short amount of time. It won't happen this season. One good off-season of conditioning and honing his shooting touch could do wonders. I'm hoping he hangs out with Derrick and Joakim this summer.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

Yeah, I'm not completely down on him. But I had my doubts, because tweener spells second rate at a lot of things unless the person is super dedicated and gifted. Tyrus is one of the many living examples. JJ needs to lock in on making himself above average at some aspect of the game, and then build from there.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I'm not sure JJ is a tweener to be honest. 

At first I wanted him here to play PF, so he could mismatch opponents. But man, the guy just looks way too small to play PF out there. And he looks plenty athletic to play SF; considerably more athletic than Deng, IMO. 

If he's ever to be successful, I've concluded that he REALLY needs to focus on being a SF. 

His build and athletic ability isn't too unlike Carmelo Anthony. So maybe he should just emulate Melo to some degree (minus all the shot attempts). He could be a very good player just by bullying opponents at the 3 spot. Kinda like how Derrick is starting to do at the 1, JJ could do those sorts of things at the 3. Why the heck not? He's got the size, strength, speed, and handles to be a real brute there.

His problems are 90% mental. He typically doesn't play within the flow of the game. He doesn't "see" things happening the way he should. And even when he does, his confidence is not there to knock down shots and finish at the rim. 

My main concern with JJ is, how well can the Bulls teach JJ these mental aspects? It's a really big problem...but if he ever gets it, the league better watch out! Good news is that I don't think JJ has any attitude problems and he seems willing/open to learn (that's the difference with him and Tyrus). Bad news is that a true understanding of the game needs to come pretty naturally and that is not the case for him at all.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Per the Carmelo Anthony comparison (from a physical standpoint mostly...), I looked at draft express and these guys are nearly physical clones of each other on paper. 

- Within 0.5 inch on height measurement (JJ is a hair taller)
- Exact same wingspan and standing reach
- Melo was clearly in better shape at draft time (230 lbs, 8% body fat), whereas JJ was apparently out of shape at the time as I recall (250 lbs, 12% body fat)...I think JJ dropped alot of that weight.
- Exact same standing jump (30")
- Pretty close running jump (JJ a hair better at 35", Melo was a bit over 33")
- Pretty close agility scores (JJ a hair better)
- Pretty close 3/4 court times (Melo a hair better)

At the very least, it helps confirm the suspicion that JJ should focus on being a "power 3", rather than a smallish 4.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

But a power 3 is a tweener. 
He's not a good enough shooter to roam around the perimeter. 

He can drive and dish, but is not really the guy you want to run your offense through because of his poor decision making. 

But I agree, he probably needs to focus on his three skills. He isn't big enough to make it as a power forward. Step by step.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

JJ has talent no question about it. But the knock on him if I remember correctly was the intangibles. Teams tend to overlook things like that when drafting guys and just pick for talent. As we all should realize by now sometimes the mental aspect of the game is tougher to overcome than a lack of top end athleticism.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Good Hope said:


> But a power 3 is a tweener.
> He's not a good enough shooter to roam around the perimeter.
> 
> He can drive and dish, but is not really the guy you want to run your offense through because of his poor decision making.
> ...


Well, I disagree on the definition of tweener; or at least the negative connotation of a tweener does not apply to JJ. The classic 3/4 tweener is too slow to be a SF and too small to be a PF. e.g., Kenny Thomas. JJ fits the SF profile from a physical standpoint every bit as much as Melo. Plenty of size, plenty of athleticism. I guess you're just referring to skills?

That said, I think we're reaching the same conclusion. JJ needs to focus on being a SF. If he's gonna thrive anywhere in this league, it will be at that position.

Agreed he doesn't have the decision making or shooting skills yet. IMO, the shooting skills will come first. That's just repetition and JJ has good form and a soft high-arching shot. Plus he hit plenty of 3-balls in college. 

This guy has the talent to be a solid starter without question. But without the decision making and feel for the game, you've gotta wonder if he will even crack the rotation?

Amazing how important a good basketball IQ is to excel in this league. That will ultimately be the deal breaker for JJ's career.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I will also say, it's ashame JJ hasn't shown more basketball IQ. If he did, then maybe we'd be more open to trading Deng for expirings.

How good of a core would we have with Rose, Noah, mentally capable JJ, and Taj? All on cheap rookie contracts, enough cap room for 2 max free agents. Oh well, we'll roll with what we got.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Well, I disagree on the definition of tweener; or at least the negative connotation of a tweener does not apply to JJ. The classic 3/4 tweener is too slow to be a SF and too small to be a PF. e.g., Kenny Thomas. JJ fits the SF profile from a physical standpoint every bit as much as Melo. Plenty of size, plenty of athleticism. I guess you're just referring to skills?
> 
> That said, I think we're reaching the same conclusion. JJ needs to focus on being a SF. If he's gonna thrive anywhere in this league, it will be at that position.
> 
> ...


This discussion comes up again in the Alexander vs. Johnson thread. McGraw says "Tweener!" about Johnson. 



> Johnson has brought an immensely popular personality to the Bulls' locker room. On the court, he has some intriguing skills, but it's difficult to tell if he'll ever fit well into one of the forward spots. Johnson might turn out to be a classic 'tweener, someone not quite fast enough to excel at small forward, and not tall enough to survive as a power forward.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

Did someone say strong johnson? 

:groucho:


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## dsouljah9 (Jul 9, 2002)




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## Reignman (Feb 15, 2005)

In Summer League, it seemed that his big strength is to blow by opposing players off the dribble. But in the regular season, a rookie won't get the ball enough for such a point forward role. The few times he did, he tried to do too much and turned the ball over a lot, seemingly overwhelmed by the pace of the game. On D he tends to rack up fouls within a few minutes - which indicates that he's (a) too slow to stay in front of threes, or (b) trying to do too much in limited minutes, risking too much and being exploited by savvy veterans.

On the other side, James has all the physical tools to excel in that game. His powerful dunks and eye-popping blocks resemble Tyrus Thomas' athletic ability a lot. I think he's got a good chance to adjust to NBA pace and start to produce. Based on his strenghts, he shoult be at the 3 rather than the 4 early in his career. If only he can survive on perimeter D, he can do great things for this team, from timely blocks, penetration and passing to the occasional threepointer.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

I thought Johnson played pretty well against Atlanta. He shutdown Evans and made him take a shot OVER the backboard which he somehow hit. He forced Smith into a 24 second violation with smothering defense. His man defense is obviously pretty good, his rotation and team defense is still a work in progress. Offensively he made some really nice passes, hit a couple of open jumpers, had a nice dunk. All the things you want to see, he sort of reminded me of another #16 draft pick for the Bulls, Ron Artest (minus the crazy).

ACE


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

ace20004u said:


> I thought Johnson played pretty well against Atlanta. He shutdown Evans and made him take a shot OVER the backboard which he somehow hit. He forced Smith into a 24 second violation with smothering defense. His man defense is obviously pretty good, his rotation and team defense is still a work in progress. Offensively he made some really nice passes, hit a couple of open jumpers, had a nice dunk. All the things you want to see, he sort of reminded me of another #16 draft pick for the Bulls, Ron Artest (minus the crazy).
> 
> ACE


Yeah I thought he played well. I don't know what the stats were from that game but the only knock on JJ i had was that it seemed like he was part of the problem as far as team rebounding went. Other than that I liked his game.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

A little snippet about JJ from Fred Mitchell. This is his chance to get some minutes in and start making progress at the game time level. Here's hoping for the best.

According to Vinny, the Bulls are going to junk it up. Might be what the doctor ordered for JJ.



> Johnson says he knows his place in the Bulls pecking order.
> 
> "I'm a rookie and we have guys who score and deserve the touches they get," he said after Wednesday's practice. "I'm not looking to take shots. I take my open shots. Other than that, I'm aggressive, make the open play and I'm not hurrying up to be an All-Star. My time will come. … It's a grinding process."


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

And Johnson delivers with a nice performance. 8-11 for 20 pts! First 20 pt game. Keep it coming, JJ!


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

This dude got a lot of game. He doesn't even seem to be trying that hard, imagine when he's giving it his all.


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