# 16 Knicks with contracts, who goes?



## MavericksFan (Jul 20, 2003)

I was watching the Spurs/Knicks game last night(those of you with League Pass, DirectTV seems to have 1 or 2 games every night lately) and noticed Matt Carroll playing well...I decided to see what his chances of making the roster were. 

Well, they aren't very good, and the Knicks have too many guys with promised deals, it appears. Who goes? Below was copied and pasted for NBA.com's Knicks roster..I subtracted Tommy Adams and Carroll. I assume the Knicks want to keep Slavko since hes young and they dont want to loose his rights, and he's probably the only guy with a cheap contract to cut. Anyone see a 2 for 1 trade in the future?

49 Shandon Anderson G-F 6-6 210 12/31/73 Georgia '96 7 
51 Michael Doleac C 6-11 262 6/15/77 Utah '98 5 
4 Howard Eisley G 6-2 180 12/04/72 Boston College '94 9 
32 Othella Harrington F-C 6-9 235 1/31/74 Georgetown '96 7 
20 Allan Houston - C G 6-6 200 4/20/71 Tennessee '93 10 
44 Travis Knight C 7-0 235 9/13/74 Connecticut '96 7 
6 Maciej Lampe F 6-11 240 2/05/85 Poland R 
34 Antonio McDyess F 6-9 245 9/07/74 Alabama '97 7 
55 Dikembe Mutombo C 7-2 265 6/25/66 Georgetown '91 12 
50 Mike Sweetney F 6-8 260 10/25/82 Georgetown '04 R 
40 Kurt Thomas F 6-9 235 10/04/72 Texas Christian '95 8 
2 Keith Van Horn F 6-10 240 10/23/75 Utah '97 6 
29 Slavko Vranes C 7-5 260 1/30/83 Serbia-Montenegro R 
21 Charlie Ward G 6-2 185 10/12/70 Florida State '94 9 
35 Clarence Weatherspoon F 6-7 270 9/08/70 Southern Mississippi '92 11 
30 Frank Williams


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## Jmonty580 (Jun 20, 2003)

From a winning standpoint we should get rid of the player that is least needed. With that being said you gotta toss, Travis Knight, Othella Harrington or Clearance Wheaterspoon. We have just to many powerforwards so I would chose for one of these guys to take a hike.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

This is what makes stupid Layden's signing of Mutombo strange. Knight, Harrington & Weatherspoon, they need to get rid of them.


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## Starbury03 (Aug 12, 2003)

Knight or Vranes


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

The Knicks want to keep Carroll.

Obviously they are trying to make a trade to rid the glut at PF. Knight is in a contract year, so they can just waive him if they choose.


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## Northpole (Aug 31, 2003)

Keeping Carrol is a must. He's good right now and will get better and is a suitable backup for Houston who has Anderson, who also backups Van Horn. THis gives a good balance to the Knicks. I think they want him bad for rebuilding purposes and to be a spark off the bench. He also has gotten more time than Adams and Blackseer has already been waived.

Knight needs to go and they should buyout Vranes and just promise to resign him in 3 years. He won't be any stronger till then and he can still work on his game. 

FInd anyone who'd take a Thomas, C-Spoon trade. I like KT but hes the only player teams might be interested in ad he could rid us of this guy.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Northpole</b>!
> Keeping Carrol is a must. He's good right now and will get better and is a suitable backup for Houston who has Anderson, who also backups Van Horn. THis gives a good balance to the Knicks. I think they want him bad for rebuilding purposes and to be a spark off the bench. He also has gotten more time than Adams and Blackseer has already been waived.
> 
> Knight needs to go and they should buyout Vranes and just promise to resign him in 3 years. He won't be any stronger till then and he can still work on his game.
> ...


There is no need to buyout Vranes. He was 2nd round pick. All they would have to do is renounce his rights. I personally would send him to the NBDL to get PT. Now this is what the NBDL should be for.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

Whats wrong with spoon? hes a great rebounder and solid defender.......i say get rid of eisley and knight


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## Jmonty580 (Jun 20, 2003)

Theres no way they get rid of Vranes, they just signed him. We should waive either spoon or harrington, which will leave us with 15 spots. Then if we want to pick up carrol we can trade thomas and ward for some player or we can just buyout ward as well and add matt caroll, because we need a back up sg.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Get rid of Slavko Vranes??? What the hell are you talking about?

Why on earth would we do that, we haven't even seen him start to develop.

Look we got two expiring contracts one with a buyout clause. Look for both of them to be traded away to get our starting point guard.


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## Priest (Jun 24, 2003)

i swear the knicks have players that wouldnt play on any other team in the league (ward)


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> i swear the knicks have players that wouldnt play on any other team in the league (ward)


What are you talking about? Ward is one of the best backup PGs in the league. He can hit a three, is a good defender (takes A LOT of charges), and has a nice A/T ratio, as well as assists per minute ratio. I'd definitely play him over Frank Williams.


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## Priest (Jun 24, 2003)

so can a lot of other guards in the nba...i feel his time is overdue in the league


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> so can a lot of other guards in the nba...i feel his time is overdue in the league


Feel free to name this monster list of backup PGs who are clearly superior to Charlie Ward.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

That would make an interesting thread Priest, I think you should do it.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Feel free to name this monster list of backup PGs who are clearly superior to Charlie Ward.


I'll do it for him.

Darrell Armstrong
Travis Best
Earl Boykins
Anthony Carter
Speedy Claxton
Antonio Daniels
Tony Delk
Derek Fisher
Troy Hudson
Anthony Johnson
Jeff McInnis
Moochie Norris
Kevin Ollie
Earl Watson
Maurice Williams
Rafer Alston
Kenny Anderson


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Darrell Armstrong, Derek Fisher, Kevin Ollie, and Moochie Norris, I don't think are superior to charlie ward.


Derek Fisher is just an insult.


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## Pistolballer (May 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> I'll do it for him.
> ...


Ward is better than Carter, Johnson, Norris and Williams IMO


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Darrell Armstrong, Derek Fisher, Kevin Ollie, and Moochie Norris, I don't think are superior to charlie ward.
> 
> 
> Derek Fisher is just an insult.


you got to be kidding me. I'll give you Norris but thats it Armstrong and Fisher are CLEARLY better than Ward and its not even close


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> you got to be kidding me. I'll give you Norris but thats it Armstrong and Fisher are CLEARLY better than Ward and its not even close


No if I was kidding you I'd say my butt smells and I am a moron and I like to smell my own butt.


But I am not instead I'll state the ward is a better passer is JUST as good of a three point shooter, is infintely better at handling and pushing the ball forward, and is a much better defender than Derek fisher.

Darrel Armstrong isn't as strong of a defender, and isn't as good of a free throw shooter though he is slightly quicker. You know what I am saying !!

Am I saying it CLEARLY or CLOUDY haha seriously though you really think D fish, the biggest reason the lakers where vulnerable to a full court press, is better than Ward, I mean ward doesn't suck that bad have you seen him play?


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

You also didn't comment about Kevin Ollie


I have my suspcioinoinonononoinoinoinoiniis about Anthony Carter too. What's your take?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Anthony Carter


Please explain. Ward is a better shooter and defender, and he has a similar assist per minute ratio.



> Antonio Daniels


He plays more SG than PG.



> Derek Fisher


Ward is a better defender and also shoots a similar 3pt%. Ward would have the same production if he had Shaq.



> Anthony Johnson


Johnson can't pass or hit a 3.



> Jeff McInnis


Please explain.



> Moochie Norris


See above.



> Kevin Ollie


You're really gonna have to explain this one to me.



> Earl Watson


What does he do besides get steals?



> Maurice Williams


That's funny. He's a 2nd round pick that is a 3rd string PG on the team that is weakest at PG in the league.



> Rafer Alston


That's a joke. Alston can't play D, and he commits turnovers like crazy. Not qualities you want from a backup PG.



> Kenny Anderson


Not last year. Besides, he'll probably be starting this year for Indiana if he gets healthy.



> Darrel Armstrong isn't as strong of a defender, and isn't as good of a free throw shooter though he is slightly quicker. You know what I am saying !!


Armstrong is a better FT shooter. Armstrong is a better scorer. Most importantly, Armstrong is a former 6th man of year, and started for a while. Armstrong is clearly better.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

I dunno about the other guys I was gonna defend skip but I am to tired 

However earl watson, is orders of magnitude more atheletic,is a great leader, a better passer ( and that says A LOT), has a better midrange game, is a better slasher. He gets a large amount of rebounds for his position and play time 2.10 in 17.3 minutes!


Earl Watson is just a better all round player except for shooting threes. If you ever have a chance to see this kid play you should in my opinion he is the best back up pointguard in the league next to Bobby Jackson, and yes, that includes Troy hudson.


I hope Beez comes back to defend this list it should be a good read.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> I hope Beez comes back to defend this list it should be a good read.


I'm back I'll post it in a minute


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## bballer27 (Aug 21, 2003)

Frank Williams


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm back I'll post it in a minute



How do you keep an idiot in suspense?

:grinning:


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lol here you go each player and there comparison to Charile Ward IMO good or bad



> Darrell Armstrong- Armstrong is/has clearly been the better athlete. He has scored at higher clip in his career, hes been a better FT shooter, FG shooter although not by much a better rebounder, more assists, played better D and has been able to stay healthy much more than Ward and not get DNP-CD. I cant believe this was even an issue





> Travis Best- This is a better comparison but I still choose best here. He has scored more, shot better from the line and the 3. Ward is actually a better defender but I still rather have a quick best harrasing my opposing point than Ward





> Earl Boykins- The new millenium Spud Webb but with a jumpshot. Can anyone stay in front of him or keep up and keep him from getting into the lane. I'd rather have boykins





> Anthony Carter- OK I got beside myself here but, Carter is better offensively-See a trend starting





> Speedy Claxton. If the Knicks were so happy with Ward Speedy wouldnt have been on you guys wish list this offseason. All I have to do is point to the finals to show why hes better than Ward





> Antonio Daniels more of a 2, but even if I had to keep him as a point, I'd rather have him. Bigger, longer more athletic.





> Tony Delk-better score and defender bar none.





> Derek Fisher- While Fish is the beneficiary of playing with 2 of the top 5 players in the league, simple fact of the matter hes one of the better man to man points in the league the only other point that takes charges better is Snow. Hes a better 3 point shooter and I'd rather have Fisher.





> Troy Hudson- last years regular season and post season. This guy should be starting.





> Anthony Johnson. Hes terrible I know. Ward wins here





> Jeff McInnis- A couple years ago this was a young PG on the rise. Look what a season in Portland does. Much more potential than Ward ever had





> Moochie Norris-better shooter, pentrator





> Kevin Ollie-even to slight Edge to Ward but I would rather have Ollie because of his size





> Earl Watson-reasons stated above is good enough for me





> Maurice Williams-Potentially better than Ward. Not right now





> Rafer Alston-He showed what he could do given time last year and thats all he needs. Ward could get 30 mins and still get the same amount of points and assits as if he played 15





> Kenny Anderson -See Darrell Armstrong


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

I have to grade a bunch of #)(%*#@)(% midterms this week so I won't be able to get to this post for a while, I am sure somoene around here will pick up the slack though. 


I just gotta go after the easiest target, Dfish. Dfish is laterally slow and is not that good a ball handling, ever wonder why the full court press used to work against the lakers so well? It's dfishes lack of handles and lateral speed that make him so vulnerable to a trap it isn't funny. He has awful court vision, no real midrange game, and cannot for the life of him creat his own shot.

All he can do is be a spot up shooter, that's it. He is a pointguard that relies on other people to do his work for him. Ward is the better passer ball handler defender, He can get his own shot off if he is covered, his court vision is excellent ( Heisman trophy candidate good ) He is a great 3 point shooter but, has not been prolific as Dfish because he simply does not get the open looks. The bottom line is he is better than Dfish at everything because fish absolutely cannot be a creator while ward can.


The rest of the guys I'll be back for if someone doesn't take it up. Except Skip, Best, Huson, Watson, Delk and Andersen. Though kenny is really debatable.


Also what made you come around on Moochie?


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## ewing336 (Dec 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> I'll do it for him.
> ...


I think Charlie Ward is better than Travis Best, Earl Boykins, Anthony Carter, Speedy Claxton, Antonio Daniels, Derek Fisher, Anthony Johnson, Moochie Norris, Kevin Ollie, Earl Watson, and Maurice Williams. 

LOL.. but that is just me...


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ewing336</b>!
> 
> 
> I think Charlie Ward is better than Travis Best, Earl Boykins, Anthony Carter, Speedy Claxton, Antonio Daniels, Derek Fisher, Anthony Johnson, Moochie Norris, Kevin Ollie, Earl Watson, and Maurice Williams.
> ...



Dont jsut say it, post why. Everyone has posted reasons to why the agree or disagree.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Dont jsut say it, post why. Everyone has posted reasons to why the agree or disagree


Correct me if I'm wrong, but everyone has NOT posted reasons. You didn't give any reasons either.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but everyone has NOT posted reasons. You didn't give any reasons either.


Please go read. I gave a very detailed response. Everyone who had mentioned the players names have given reasons


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Ok, found them.



> Anthony Carter- OK I got beside myself here but, Carter is better offensively-See a trend starting


Anthony Carter's FG%
99-00: .395
00-01: .406
01-02: .342
02-03: .356
Career FG%: .383
Career 3pt%: .111 (10-90, and 1-27 over the last 2 years)
Career FG%: .671
Career ppg: 5.5 (4.1 ppg last year)

If anything, Carter is very much on the decline, and wasn't too good to begin with.

He is Ward without a 3pt shot.



> Speedy Claxton. If the Knicks were so happy with Ward Speedy wouldnt have been on you guys wish list this offseason.


The Knicks made no attempt at Claxton. He is faster than Ward, that's it. Ward is a better defender, better passer, and better shooter. Like Carter, Claxton has no 3pt range (4-44 in his career, including 0-11 last year)



> "All I have to do is point to the finals to show why hes better than Ward


Why? Like Ward hasn't had a good playoff series before?

In the 99-00 playoffs Ward averaged 9.4 ppg with a .504 FG% and .396 3pt% with 4.3 rpg, 4.1 apg, and 1.4 spg.

Claxton had a whopping 2 good games in the finals. Backup PGs always make names for themselves in the playoffs (see Anthony Carter). That doesn't mean they're that good (again, see Anthony Carter).



> Antonio Daniels more of a 2, but even if I had to keep him as a point, I'd rather have him. Bigger, longer more athletic.


And a lot more turnover prone.



> Tony Delk-better score and defender bar none.


Definitely not a better defender, and not a better passer. You seem to value points from your PGs more than assists and turnovers.



> simple fact of the matter Fisher's one of the better man to man points in the league the only other point that takes charges better is Snow.


Ward is as good or better at taking charges.



> Hes a better 3 point shooter and I'd rather have Fisher.


Charlie Ward shoots 3's at a 38% rate WITHOUT Shaq's post presence. Put Ward in the same role as Fisher, and you'd see similar results from 3pt range.




> Jeff McInnis- A couple years ago this was a young PG on the rise.


A couple years ago, he was a stat padder on the Clippers. Points don't impress me from a PG, because PGs don't get points on a team that has better scorers (Portland). McInnis may be a better scorer, but if you stuck Ward on Portland in the same role McInnis is in, he'd be putting up the same production.



> Moochie Norris-better shooter, pentrator


Better shooter? Norris has no 3pt range. He's a career .286 (92-322, 7 seasons, including 11-45 last year). 

Additionally, last year was the worst year of Norris' career. 4.4 ppg and 2.4 apg.




> Kevin Ollie-even to slight Edge to Ward but I would rather have Ollie because of his size


Ollie is 6'4, 195 lbs. Ward is 6'2, 190 lbs. That's a pretty flimsy reason, especially since Ward is just as strong given his similar weight.



> Maurice Williams-Potentially better than Ward. Not right now


Right, potential. Lots of players have potential to be good, unfortunately it doesn't translate to the present. Right now, Ward is better. When Williams realizes his potential, Ward might not be in the league anymore, he'll have retired already. Potential doesn't make a player better. Lebron has potential, but that won't buy him a jumpshot this year.




> Rafer Alston-He showed what he could do given time last year and thats all he needs.


Yes, he showed he could put up the worst A/T ratio in the league. Putting up numbers on crap teams is not difficult.



> Ward could get 30 mins and still get the same amount of points and assits as if he played 15


Ward
15.6 pp48m
5.8 rp48m
10.0 ap48m
2.6 sp48m
0.4 bp48m

Alston
17.9 pp48m
5.2 rp48m
9.4 ap48m
1.9 sp48m
0.7 bp48m

You stand corrected.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Ok, found them.
> 
> 
> ...


Nice reply. You cant use the Shaq argument because you will never know what it would be like if Ward had Shaq and Fisher didnt, all you can go by is career numbers. No I dont value a scoring point more than a passing one but obviously they need to score. Also Norris is a better shooter. Shooting doesnt just entail the 3. Ollie is longer than ward. I'd personally rather have Ollie defensively than Ward. It wasnt a weight issue. 2 inches taller and a much wider wing span. Also that last statement I made wasnt a comparison of Ward to Alston but just Ward in General. that per 48 minute argument is trash. That holds 0 weight with me.


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## Jmonty580 (Jun 20, 2003)

I ant believe its even argued that Fisher was better than Ward. :laugh: I just gotta laugh at that one. Either you've never seen both of them play or your blind, and just rank Fisher higher because your a lakers fan. 

Fisher is by far the worst starting pg in the league, if the lakers didnt get payton they should have drafted any rookie pg to take fishers place. The guy cant pass, cant run, cant shoot, and cant defend. Charlie Ward can run laps around Fisher and he wouldnt even have enough time to let his brain know what was going on. If your the point guard on the Lakers you have to get assists, if you dont then you should die. 

Alot of the player on the list are better than ward in many areas, but lack the overall experience and well roundedness that ward brings to the floor. Ward isnt a speed demon, but he can penetrate if your focus isnt on him. He isnt a great passer like Kidd, but he gets the ball to the players he's supposed to without throwing it away often. He's a decent ball handler, he's not flashy like AI, but he gets the ball up the court without it getting stolen, he's very fundamentally sound which alot of these other guy arent. He's a solid jump shooter, if you leave ward open for the shot he will probably knock it down. 

Is ward going to come in off the bench and make other teams affraid? No. But he will come in and hold things down while the starter gets some minutes resting on the bench. The thruth is Ward is an above average back up pg.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> The guy cant pass, cant run, cant shoot, and cant defend.


Can't pass? He is among the leaders in A/T ratio.

Can't shoot? Have you watched the Lakers the last 5 years?

Can't defend? Fisher is among the best in basketball at drawing charges. His defense is always knocked because other PGs do well against him, but it's because Shaq is unwilling to guard the pick and roll. Fisher is essentially guarding two players because Shaq is insistent on not moving out of the paint.:devil:


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jmonty580</b>!
> I ant believe its even argued that Fisher was better than Ward. :laugh: I just gotta laugh at that one. Either you've never seen both of them play or your blind, and just rank Fisher higher because your a lakers fan.
> 
> Fisher is by far the worst starting pg in the league, if the lakers didnt get payton they should have drafted any rookie pg to take fishers place. The guy cant pass, cant run, cant shoot, and cant defend. Charlie Ward can run laps around Fisher and he wouldnt even have enough time to let his brain know what was going on. If your the point guard on the Lakers you have to get assists, if you dont then you should die.
> ...


JMONTY I am neither a Lakers fan nor a Knicks fan but the fact of the matter is, is that Ward would not run circles around Fisher and the fact that 2 years ago when the Lakers played the Knicks on national TV if I am not mistaken wasnt Ward sticking Fisher when he hit those 4 3's in a row in the first quarter. If anything all of the PG's that I mentioned are not as one dimensional as ward. Also the fact that you said Fisher cant shoot diminishes your argument. His career 41% FG doesnt tell me hes that great a shooter while FG% doesnt mean hes not good its just an indication hes not that great if you follow me. Also if you know the Lakers offense, its not the PG's main job to get assists. The Triangle offense being ran throughout its history the PG has never had high assist numbers.


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