# Jay Williams



## bballin (Jun 3, 2003)

The Bulls are known to be down on a Williams/Crawford backcourt, any feelings on trading for Williams? I know his rookie year was pretty average, but points usually take time to develope.

any thoughts?


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

I'd love to see that done, but I don't particularly care for the odds. We don't have nearly enough to get the guy. I doubt Chicago would take either of our picks for him and they might even reject both picks for him. And they'd be taking some filler from us too, which they probably wouldn't want either.


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## bballin (Jun 3, 2003)

What about brown, maybe with a pick (not necessarily this year)? Salaries would match wouldn't they?


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

Are you guys crazy? Bremer is better. Another dump of a HUGE drafting mistake. He can't play d and he can't make free throws. Chicago can keep him. I wouldn't trade a second round pick for him.


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## bballin (Jun 3, 2003)

I didn't say I was in favour of trading for Williams, just wondering what the conventional wisdom is on such a move:|


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## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

*Jay Williams in Boston*

I do not see this happening. I do not think the Bulls would get the best deal from the Celtics. Anyway, I also do not think that the Bulls are ready to give up on Williams and admit that they were wrong to draft him.

It would be great for Williams if he came to Boston. He is used to playing a smaller role on better teams. Boston makes it easier on the point with so many other players bringing it down, creating their own shots and making plays for other players. Williams would thrive in Boston like Bremer did. Williams value is very low at this time. Chicago would be crazy to trade him right now. 

Personally I do not think that fans are being fair with Williams. It is very difficult for most rookies to play the point in the NBA. Most take time to develop (unless your nick name is Magic).

The Bulls are a young team and it is going to take time for them to develop. If management is patient and lets them grow together they may be very tough in the future. Williams may become a big part of them being tough. I remember Jay Williams in college as very talented. He still is. He just needs to learn the NBA game.


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## bballin (Jun 3, 2003)

He also wouldn't have to play in the triangle with the C's, although he would probably have to launch a few 3's 

I wonder if the Celtics wouldn't be better off finding the point in free agency rather than the draft as points usually do struggle to begin with. We don't want to waste PP and Walker's prime in developing a new PG


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Are you guys crazy? Bremer is better. Another dump of a HUGE drafting mistake. He can't play d and he can't make free throws. Chicago can keep him. I wouldn't trade a second round pick for him.


I've watched both players, and I can assure you that Bremer is not better. Don't get me wrong- Bremer is a fine player- but Jay has got some skills that are gonna make him an excellent pg in this league. He will never realize that potential in Chicago because the Bulls already have a better pg in Jamal Crawford- but in a place like Boston, Jay could really blow up. I'm not quite sure that Boston would have enough to pry Jay away as of right now, but if you somehow did get him, I think he'd be great for this team. He is one of the quickest players in the league not named A.I., he is a natural born playmaker, he has absolutely sick handles, he's rather strong for his size, and his jumpshot is underrated. He struggled badly with his shot the first half of the year, but towards the end of the year it was really coming around, both from midrange and from three-point land. He also seems to have a knack for making big plays at the end of games. I'd like to see him end up in a place like Boston- a veteran playoff team without all the young egos the Bulls have.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

Bremer is a much better defender. 

Why is it that fans from every team under the sun come to this forum proposing to give us their drafting and trading mistakes? They all say, have I got a deal for you. Why have the Celtics become their target dumping ground?

The guys from Cleveland want to do us a favor by giving us Darius Miles and Desagna Diop, two of the biggest busts in NBA drafting history. They'll even throw in Smush Parker for good measure. As if someone would actually trade useful players on a 45 win team for guys who stank up the floor or couldn't even get playing time on a 17 win team.

The guys from Chicago think Jay Williams would be a "great fit" in Boston. We've seen this guy play, remember? He doesn't defend and his big plays at the end of games usually consist of missed free throws. Williams was a huge mistake and the Bulls have to pay him BIG GUARANTEED MONEY for the next two years-- and for what? For a guy who isn't as good as Jamal Crawford. Jamal who? Forget it.

Earlier it was the Atlanta fan who wanted to do us a favor by reluctantly parting with Abdur-Rahim or Glenn Robinson in exchange for Antoine Walker. And they'll throw in Dion Glover just to show they are serious. Guys, the Hawks are the no. 1 candidate for NBA contraction. They have no one who plays defense, a bloated payroll, serious luxury tax liability and a half- empty arena every night. No one wants any of your players, except possibly Jason Terry (who is a FA) or Nazr Mohammed. Your are stuck. That's just the way it is. Learn golf.

And why in so many mock drafts is Boston the preferred landing place for every slow, unathletic white klutz with no hops or lateral mobility? We don't want them. We want athletic players who can defend. We don't want guys that you have to hide in a zone.

I would suggest that you all go over to the Knicks forum and offer Jay Williams to them. They need him much more than we do.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*We don't have enough to get him*

The Bulls won't take anything we have. To get JWilliams, you'd have to give up BOTH picks, and Kedrick, minimum. And they wouldn't want Kedrick because they have Robinson. And they don't need draft picks. They're looking to trade down and get a good SF that can start. So you can table this discussion, although I am intrigued at the prospect, and yes, sorry to say, Jay Williams, while a bust at #2 overall, will be a much better pro than JR.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: We don't have enough to get him*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> The Bulls won't take anything we have. To get JWilliams, you'd have to give up BOTH picks, and Kedrick, minimum. And they wouldn't want Kedrick because they have Robinson. And they don't need draft picks. They're looking to trade down and get a good SF that can start. So you can table this discussion, although I am intrigued at the prospect, and yes, sorry to say, Jay Williams, while a bust at #2 overall, will be a much better pro than JR.


1. Maybe Williams will be better than JR, maybe not. Time will tell. 

2. Kedrick for Williams doesn't work under the CBA, so it's all just useless blather anyway.

3. The deal Chicago really wants to do is Jalen Rose and Williams for Walker. That is just another example of people trying to dump their problems on the Celtics.

4. Chicago wouldn't want Kedrick because they have Robinson? Say what? Robinson is six years older than Kedrick and has no upside. 

5. Chicago has #7 in the draft so they can get Lampe or Jarvis Hayes if they need a small forward.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

Why would the bulls want walker he sucks. The last thing the bulls need is another power forward and especially one who is soft. Please. As for williams he is not going anywhere. no one trades a first year player with the talent that williams has. Well memphis traded Bibby. Enought said.

david


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>giusd</b>!
> Why would the bulls want walker he sucks. The last thing the bulls need is another power forward and especially one who is soft. Please. As for williams he is not going anywhere. no one trades a first year player with the talent that williams has. Well memphis traded Bibby. Enought said.
> 
> david


What the Bulls need is a few players who are good enough to get them out of the lottery. Eddie Curry is developing nicely, and Rose, although completely overpaid, can play the game when he wants to. But that's only two-- you need three or four more.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*Getting out of the lottery...*

Doesn't take much in the East...What do we have, exactly? Two studs and a great coach. My point about Robinson is that he is about the same player Kedrick is. As for Kedrick's upside, have you seen improvement in him? I haven't. I think he's done. And there's no way I deal either of our players for a guy like Jalen Rose. Forget that. And there's no SF at #7 worth what they could get in trade for #7 and Williams. Maybe they can get Jamison or somebody in a package deal. But a rookie Euro? That's not what they want. I'd be shocked if they kept this pick. And oh, here's what most Celtic fans think about Bremer... and here's what most GMs think about him... Gimme Jay any day of the week and twice on Sunday...That said, I don't trade him to Cleveland, that's for sure.


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## KA (Apr 21, 2003)

*Re: Getting out of the lottery...*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> Doesn't take much in the East...What do we have, exactly? Two studs and a great coach.
> 
> I'd be shocked if they kept this pick. And oh, here's what most Celtic fans think about Bremer... and here's what most GMs think about him... Gimme Jay any day of the week and twice on Sunday...That said, I don't trade him to Cleveland, that's for sure.


I'm amazed at the people who think that O'Brien is a great coach. Out of all the games I watched this year (which is admittedly a small number because I'm in Nets/Knicks territory), I never once saw anything that resembled a good offensive set. It's always five guys standing around the perimiter, holding the ball until there are 7 seconds left on the shot-clock and then someone (usually Pierce of Walker) taking a bad shot.

I'f the C's had a real coach, that actually created plays for his team to run Walker and Pierce would probably add 30% to their offensive production. O'Brien is no Patino, but he certainly isn't a great coach.

As far as Bremer goes. Everyone talks about how hard it is for a rookie to play PG, and how much of a learning there is involved with it. Everyone is sure that Jay Williams will come around, but nobody ever mentions that JR will also improve. I'll agree that the jury is still out on who will become the better player, but judging by the first season (and what else do we have to judge by), I'll stick with JR.


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## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>giusd</b>!
> Why would the bulls want walker he sucks. The last thing the bulls need is another power forward and especially one who is soft. Please. As for williams he is not going anywhere. no one trades a first year player with the talent that williams has. Well memphis traded Bibby. Enought said.
> 
> david



WaLker sux? WoW, pLease do not come to a CeLtics forum and express pointLess hatred toward a pLayer that iz better than practicaLLy your whoLe team, thanx........


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> WaLker sux? WoW, pLease do not come to a CeLtics forum and express pointLess hatred toward a pLayer that iz better than practicaLLy your whoLe team, thanx........


Let's try and stay on topic, and not focus on the other posters- thanks.
And for the record, the Bulls have at least 5 players that I would not trade for Walker straight up (Rose, Curry, Crawford, Fizer, Chandler). Not because they are all necessarily "better" than Walker skill-wise, but because they are not soft and, in my opinion, stupid players like Walker. Eddy Curry alone has more value than Walker, and as many problems as there are with Rose's game, I'd take him over Walker in a heartbeat.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: Getting out of the lottery...*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> Doesn't take much in the East...What do we have, exactly? Two studs and a great coach. My point about Robinson is that he is about the same player Kedrick is. As for Kedrick's upside, have you seen improvement in him? I haven't. I think he's done. And there's no way I deal either of our players for a guy like Jalen Rose. Forget that. And there's no SF at #7 worth what they could get in trade for #7 and Williams. Maybe they can get Jamison or somebody in a package deal. But a rookie Euro? That's not what they want. I'd be shocked if they kept this pick. And oh, here's what most Celtic fans think about Bremer... and here's what most GMs think about him... Gimme Jay any day of the week and twice on Sunday...That said, I don't trade him to Cleveland, that's for sure.


1. Right, it doesn't take much in the East, and the Bulls haven't even managed that.

2. So what could they get for #7 and Williams? Remember it has to work under the CBA. I doubt if they can get anyone as good as Jamison unless they are willing to give up Tyson Chandler. I personally think that would be no great loss (talk about guys who haven't developed) but I don't think the Bulls have the cohones to do it.

3. I'm not in love with Bremer. He has his strengths (defense) and weaknesses (poor distributor in the half court offense) just like any other player. The Celtics need a point guard to share the position with Bremer other than Delk, who is simply not the answer. But neither is Williams.

4. And for the umpteenth time, any deal involving Bremer and guys like Miles or Williams who make $3.5 M per year-- ten times what Bremer makes-- has to involve other players. Somebody else has to go to balance the salaries. 

5. I saw improvement in Kedrick until he got hurt earlier in the year. When he came back, he had regressed. However, I'm not willing to give up on him until I've seen him get 25-30 minutes a game for about ten straight games. This kid is now a college senior in terms of maturation. How long did it take McGrady to become a star? How long did it take Jermaine O"Neal?


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> Let's try and stay on topic, and not focus on the other posters- thanks.
> And for the record, the Bulls have at least 5 players that I would not trade for Walker straight up (Rose, Curry, Crawford, Fizer, Chandler). Not because they are all necessarily "better" than Walker skill-wise, but because they are not soft and, in my opinion, stupid players like Walker. Eddy Curry alone has more value than Walker, and as many problems as there are with Rose's game, I'd take him over Walker in a heartbeat.


I'll give you Curry. Chandler- maybe. Crawford- maybe. But Fizer? Come on, you honestly wouldn't pull the trigger on a Walker/Fizer deal? Walker's a much better player. And Rose is not the team player Walker is either, nor is he as well-rounded.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> And oh, here's what most Celtic fans think about Bremer... and here's what most GMs think about him... Gimme Jay any day of the week and twice on Sunday...That said, I don't trade him to Cleveland, that's for sure.they want. I'd be shocked if they kept this pick.


 :clap: Thank you.
Not that I don't like Bremer- he is a fantastic athlete and a decent jump shooter, and can be a pretty good player in this league, IMO. But other than being bigger and stronger than Jay, I just haven't seen what makes him special. He does not seem to have the handles or the playmaking ability that Jay has (the two staples of a good pg), and I haven't seen the same ability to penetrate and finish out of Bremer that I've seen from Jay. Bremer's shot is certainly better, and Big John is definitely right about him being an excellent defender at the point, but he seems to lack the certain "point guard instincts" that seperate average pgs from good ones. I believe that Jay has a bigger upside, but that is just my opinion. One thing I _know_ though- Jay will never realize his potential with the Bulls. Boston would be an ideal situation for him.


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## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> I'll give you Curry. Chandler- maybe. Crawford- maybe. But Fizer? Come on, you honestly wouldn't pull the trigger on a Walker/Fizer deal? Walker's a much better player. And Rose is not the team player Walker is either, nor is he as well-rounded.



I dunno if I wud even do that, but we are obviousLy arguing w/ a BuLLS fan here, no point in continuing........


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## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> That is true.
> 
> ...


Big John- take care of this guy pLease, you aLwayz kno the right thing to sey, especiaLLy about the Last part...jeez........


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