# Elite Team: The Toronto Raptors



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Discuss whether or not the Toronto Raptors are, or will be, an elite team in the 2006/2007 NBA season.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

define elite? top 10 team? 50+ wins?


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

I don't know if the Raptors will be 1337 this year. In fact I know that they probably won't be. But the focus this season is on getting better (a ten win improvement on last season would be great) and continuing to develop our young talent for the future.


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## martymar (Jan 5, 2006)

SkywalkerAC said:


> Discuss whether or not the Toronto Raptors are, or will be, an elite team in the 2006/2007 NBA season.


baby steps, we can't run until we learn how to crawl...raptors hasn't made the playoffs since 02 so definitely will not be even be classified as an elite team


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

*Horrible - Bad - Decent - respectable - good - really good - elite*

^ I believe these are the stages of perception around the league

last year we floated between Bad and Decent, IMO

If we can reach respectable to good status this year, I think it will be an achievement


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## Timbaland (Nov 18, 2005)

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I wish we were an elite team, but not just yet, first steps are of course just improving like people said and trying to contend for a playoff spot.


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

as much as i am love your Pre-Season optimism Sky, i dont think we are anywhere close to being an elite team, we arent even considered a lock for the playoffs by many of the raptors faithful around these parts. I think the first step is becomign a lock for the playoffs by not only our fans but fans league-wide. The next step after that will be to be a team that people say, damn were playing the Raptors i dont liek our chances, but it will be a good game. Right now people look at us and laugh, at what we are, an up and coming team, but dont really pose a serious threat to them. Then after we gain that status we can rise to becoming he Elite team, i think well gain that status after this upcoming season, i think we can get to step 1 and 2 by the end of the season.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

No


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Dee-Zy said:


> define elite? top 10 team? 50+ wins?


I guess one has to define elite for oneself. 

Personally, I think division champions are fairly elite. I also think that elite teams should be defeating and consistantly competing against other elite teams.


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## Pnack (Aug 23, 2005)

I'm hoping they make the playoffs, which I think is reasonable.


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## chocolove (Apr 4, 2006)

I think Raptors will be a respectable team this year at best but thats still a lot better than last year


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I think you have to make way for the *possibilty* of greatness this year. We will have to wait on this team a little, gaining valuable NBA experience playing together, but I don't think we'll have to wait for them to be good. Once they get on a good roll there's a definite possibility that we'll be on the same level of competitiveness with some of the other best teams in the league.

I think there is going to be enormous parity in the league this year. I don't expect the league's best teams to be winning many more games than those lower down in the playoff race. 

I'm not saying I believe the Raptors will have a great (50+) win total this year. That too is possible but not the real issue here. For me, the real issue is whether or not we'll be playing great, or elite level, basketball this season. We may not play at that level for the entire duration but I fully expect it to be reached sooner or later.

What kind of team usually results when you've got a great point guard and a great frontcourt with good wings and personel that fits the style of play? I think you get a pretty damn good one.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Plus right now it's very difficult to define the league's elite. Some teams are going to be moving into it, some out. And the line will blur.

Is detroit an elite team? Were the Twolves an elite team when they almost made the Finals? Are the Nets an elite team or are they even going to win the Atlantic over the Raptors?


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

Pnack said:


> I'm hoping they make the playoffs, which I think is reasonable.


it will be huge if we make the playoffs. if we make it and get swept in the 1st round, this season will be a success.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Benis007 said:


> it will be huge if we make the playoffs. if we make it and get swept in the 1st round, this season will be a success.




I feel bad for your draft, did you try to create the most talented injury prone team as possible?


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

Yall didn't even make the playoffs last season. yall can't go from a non-playoff team one year, and an elite team the next. I think toronto has the potiential to be an elite team, but it will all depend on the development of Andrea Bargnani.


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

Dee-Zy said:


> I feel bad for your draft, did you try to create the most talented injury prone team as possible?


this is nene's breakout year.

isn't this a contract year for maggette?


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> Yall didn't even make the playoffs last season. yall can't go from a non-playoff team one year, and an elite team the next. I think toronto has the potiential to be an elite team, but it will all depend on the development of Andrea Bargnani.



can u say phoenix? not saying were gonna do that, well im not saying we arent..but you get my drift.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Not yet... I think we're a couple steps away from that.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

Not a chance in hell of the Raptors being an elite time in the '06/'07 season.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

No...where...close.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

trick said:


> No...where...close.


They don't fit with your definition of elite but do you think they could be competing for the division title this season?


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

SkywalkerAC said:


> They don't fit with your definition of elite but do you think they could be competing for the division title this season?


I have a hard time believing they'll be competing for the division title _late_ in the season, unless we stay healthy and everyone else gets injured.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

SkywalkerAC said:


> They don't fit with your definition of elite but do you think they could be competing for the division title this season?


 No man. The division is pretty much in the Nets' hands already. We have nice depth, but that alone doesn't win divisions, let alone contend for championships.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> No man. The division is pretty much in the Nets' hands already. We have nice depth, but that alone doesn't win divisions, let alone contend for championships.


 I will say this though. If our bench can live up to its billing and take care of the opposing team's second unit on a consistent basis, we'll have a great shot at taking 2nd place in the division. Because more than just depth, we have a pretty balanced team with young guys and vets, and none of the other three teams fighting for #2 can say that.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> No man. The division is pretty much in the Nets' hands already. We have nice depth, but that alone doesn't win divisions, let alone contend for championships.



yeah, Nets are pretty good. I don't think we'll be too far behind though, nor do I think us overmatched, when we do play.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

And please don't think that I see the Raptors an elite team right now. I simply wanted to spark discussion on the topic. Who are the elite teams and are we far behind heading into the season and how much will we close the gap as the season progresses? I definitely expect us to play some elite NBA basketball this season, competing consistantly with the best teams in the league. I expect a good number of wins, around the 40 mark one way or the other. 

I think we're composed like an elite team. From the starters to the bench I love our composition. I love our balance of vets, roleplayers, and youngplayers. I like our defensive and offensive potential. I like the style of ball we're going to be playing. We have an allstar with a VERY good supporting cast at the other positions. 

What we don't have is a lot of experience playing together as an entire team. How much does that matter when you have the right ingredients (assuming Mitchell to be adequate)? We'll watch the season and find out I guess but I think the potential is there for the Raps to catapult into the league's elite this year. 

In my opinion this is the best team we've ever had; that doesn't mean a better record, as I also believe the league is better, but it's got to count for something.


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## Pain5155 (May 28, 2006)

raptors will be lucky to hit 40 wins, this team has 2-3 years away from making an impact in the NBA.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I honestly do think that we are composed like an elite team that has the potential to gel very rapidly. 

Is our starting lineup at all lacking? How about our bench? 

All very early but I have high hopes for these guys. When we're hitting our shots we're going to outscore the best teams in the league.


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## Real (Aug 3, 2005)

I think the Raptors will make the playoffs, and finish second or third in the Atlantic. A decent/good team.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i'm reaching the point where it's feeling really good to follow this team... really good. i haven't seen any of the preseason affairs, i've just been reading accounts (including yours- thanks for that), and i was expecting to see differing viewpoints on everything, but all that does is invigorate me with more excitement.

change is always exciting, if not terrifying, but i've come to appreciate the mountains of change we climbed over the summer. quite frankly, i don't think there remains a single player on the roster whom i don't look forward to seeing this year, and i can't remember the last time that happened. i don't think that ever happened.

i mean, 1 through 15 is like a gift under the christmas tree for me. 

1) chris: i love him as a basketball leader, i love him as our focal point, he's the perfect silent gem. whether he takes his game (stats-wise) to another level is not important. i think his personality will rub off on the team and will take _us_ to a higher level.

2) tj: it's hard for me to contain my enthusiasm for this guy. charlie was great, but tj is awesome for the raps (imo). like i said, i have yet to see any games so i'm just going on what i've seen him do elsewhere, but man, he's a leader, he's a wizard, he's passionate, he's smart, he's engaging, he's my ultimate floor general for this team. i understand how people are siding with calderon these days, what with his great performance at the worlds and some added maturity to his game, but tj will win over hearts in this country, i reckon. it might take some time, it might take some failure, but it'll happen. i can't wait for the ride.

3) mop: it shocks the hell out of me but he _is_ the *toronto raptor*. i don't know how he made it to this point, he's weathered every storm, and yet he's none the worse for wear (imo). i love his ability to slide into the background when necessary, while i totally appreciate his confidence in assuming more vital roles as well. in the modern day, i see morris peterson as the categorical role player, the model for the position. just having him on this team should steady the ship while we coast over new waves of change in the coming months.

4) rasho: haven't heard a thing about him yet. i like that. i'd want him to become the stapler for this team- not being on the pages, just tying it all together. he might play hoffa minutes + ~5 this year, but that's good enough. simply having him available for key junctures is enough for me. i love the fact that we acquired him from a great team, as well. it's just another piece from another pie, helps to diversify our pool of assets.

5) bargnani: i've almost forgotten that he was the number one overall pick in june. i still can't recall the last time the number one- from a relatively 'weak' draft no less- came in to such mild expectations. it's perfect. my knowledge of his game is still youtube'd, but those videos speak for themselves. reading comments from... everywhere this preseason has only confirmed my perception of his game: he's a confusing piece. some might love him, others may not, that's great. that tells me that his type has rarely been seen in the past and the people don't yet know how to react. he will write a story for himself by the time it's all said and done, i think.

6) garbajosa: eating good press from everyone, is he? i find that somewhat amusing. i don't know what he's going to bring but i wouldn't mind if he continued to shoulder the lion's share of attention around this team. there are a lot of players who need space, in my opinion, and having a p/r magnet like jorge can afford them that space. i'm intrigued to see how his outside jumper will add to our offense, while i'm also excited to see him line up across from the tyson chandlers of the league, but i think his value behind locker room doors could very well trump his positive contributions on the court.

7) parker: wasn't long ago that we heard him labeled as "one of the best players in the world" (nba included). that was a little bizarre. i didn't really understand. it just told me that his world overseas must've been fantastic- both in the way that it was brought on him, and the way he must've created it himself. i'm fascinated by his prospects as a raptor. the quality of his interviews to date has been second to none, and in their wake i'm dying to see him play a major role in our first tight game of the season. i think it could be a very revealing moment. 

8) calderon: good for him. you can't help but like this guy... although you could probably hold the same for every player we have. still, he brings another dimension to this team, i think, at least in terms of its approach and mentality and mood. it's comforting to know we have him- as a "veteran", can you believe it- behind tj to run the show and bring sam mitchell to the floor. i don't think jose's too important for us, but i certainly don't mind him being here. he's our team's "pina colada", if you will. he's refreshing. 

9) jones: to be honest, i've never really been a big fan of fred's game. but i'll tell you what, he does what i expect jorge will do: he'll distract our team from distraction. he'll stand out quite often unless he's changed over the summer, and that would be enough for me. his offensive weapons are numerous, i think- especially with chris and tj on this team- and his sheer presence might clear the path for some of our other pieces (like parker and mop and bargnani) to get theirs. at any rate, i'm glad we got him instead of john salmons, and i like how that situation was handled. it could've been an embarrassing twist for the team and yet it seems like he's won over hearts and eyes already (prior to game one). that's distraction # 1, i think, and i see it as being a good one. the "nobody wants to come to toronto" myth has been forgotten. that's crucial.

10) graham: he's got the world in his hands. i must be his most vocal supporter, i mean, look what i just said. i believe in joey graham and i think his contributions here will gain momentum as the season moves along. i think he'll surprise us with what he can do, what he feels comfortable doing, and the times at which he does them. i don't know that for a fact but i'll be watching. this kid's slow burn has _got_ to erupt this year.

11) humphries: i love it. like i mentioned above, we have such a diversified portfolio of talents that we couldn't possibly lose... could we? we have guys like humphries who add yet another layer: major potential. he might not develop into anything... but he might also develop into something special. we just don't know. the fact that he's in his contract year and knows his role should serve both the team and kris himself, respectively. i expect more 'mistakes' from humphries than virtually any player, to be honest- but i expect the mistakes to be exciting, to keep things interesting, to give our team a reason to rally around each other and trample adversity. i might be making a mountain out of a molehill here but that's exactly what it is with our team overall: we have a lot of mountains that _look_ like molehills here. i look forward to kris redeeming our 2004 first-round draft pick.

12) tucker: i like what i've read, like the clips i've seen, he might surprise me. i wasn't the biggest fan of his game as a longhorn but, to be honest, i didn't see very much of it. the fact that he's got a longhorn treasure in tj ford to help him handle the professional game, as well as another texas kid in chris bosh to do the same, is another reason for me to wonder how we fell on all this good luck over just one summer. the fact that we have composure with chris, jorge, parker and rasho, and blatant passion with mop, bargnani, calderon, ford and now tucker, tends to refuel my tank over and over and over. we have a bit of everything but not too much of anything. something tells me that tucker will carve out a niche for himself on this roster and make a seamless transition to the pros. and we're talking about the 12th man listed here, it's unreal.

13) martin: the proverbial _13th_ man. if we're lacking in anything in terms of the players we have, it could be veteran leadership. to me, vet leadership isn't all-important but having it in the body of darrick martin could be highly valuable. the guy doesn't demand any time on the floor, number one, he watches from the bench attentively as our most spirited cheerleader (which cannot be underestimated, imo), and he's apparently teaching himself the art of coaching (his next career) which leads him to be especially positive in the development of young players around him (his students). this guy is my favourite benchwarmer in the history of the franchise, and while he won't be bringing much to the court himself, i see his value as being in line with even more than a "rotation guy" (which he is not); i see him as being like a 6th _starter_ for us and he won't even _play_. there's a microcosm for our entire team.

14) slokar: no idea. i have ~ no idea. uhh... just about no idea. approximately... no idea. 

15) sow: i'll tell you what, we have some quotable bodies on this team. even slokar struck me as an interesting bloke during summer league 05. sow's the same for me. he's a mature young man and he understands the game of p/r. if nothing else, he does that. and while he recovers from his neck injury, his presence will still be felt. he's like a tornado when he's on the floor, really, even at practice, and players like that have a tendency to keep things interesting during the most dull points of the year. i see calderon as being the same. these guys would go at 100% if they were playing american with you on your driveway, and while that rubs some players the wrong way, i think it only rubs the wrong _players_ the wrong way.

...

in the end, this team is giving me a lot to get excited about. i understand low expectations for them out of habit, but the intangibles around the acc these days are as healthy as they've _ever_ been, imo- easy. i think this team is bound to outperform almost anyone's expectations this year. just remember, when next may rolls around and you begin to hear all this talk about the "most surprising team in the nba this season", it won't really be all that surprising for _everyone_. i can't wait for the ride, it'll be a lot of fun. elite team? you'd better believe it... at least i _want_ to believe it. and i think i can.

i know i do.

peace


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

And even Slokar can be used to illustrate the great makeup of this team. 

Slokar:

1) Professional Experience

2) LOVES Toronto

3) We have a former teammate, GM, and national team teammate of his.

4) He just seems like the type of guy that will enjoy being here, practicing, bonding with the team, and even playing in the D-league (which he will).

5) Probably has the ability to excel in the D-league. He can shoot, rebound, and score inside. 

6) His round cherub-like face.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

And thank you ballocks for pointing out the potential of Kris Humprhies. I have been viewing him as a piece to the puzzle, having seen very little of him, but as a role-player in the current system. Based on skill set, athleticism (running and strength esp), work ethic, and youth, he may project into a vital role alongside B&B and off the bench down the road. My opinion of his work ethic is based on his preseason play (with the Jazz he also came in ready to play, in great shape) and I see a lot of character and a healthy in his face and demeanor. I think he will mesh very well.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

1) chris: 

Offense: Excellent
Defense: Above Average
Intangibles: Excellent

2) tj: 

Offense: Above Average
Defense: Above Average
Intangibles: Average

3) mop: 

Offense: Average
Defense: Average
Intangibles: Above Average

4) rasho: 

Offense: Below Average
Defense: Above Average
Intangibles: Average

5) bargnani: 

TBD

6) garbajosa: 

TBD

7) parker: 

TBD

8) calderon: 

Offense: Below Average
Defense: Above Average
Intangibles: Above Average

9) jones: 

Offense: Below Average
Defense: Above Average
Intangibles: Average

10) graham: 

Offense: Average
Defense: Above Average
Intangibles: Average

11) humphries: 

Offense: Bad
Defense: Average
Intangibles: Below Average

12) tucker: 

TBD

13) martin: 

Offense: Above Average
Defense: Above Average
Intangibles: Good

The Raptors have one bankable star, one noticeably above average player, a bunch of guys who are average, and a bunch of unknowns. The good news is that the bench is now full of average guys, rather than the stiff we used to roll out in previous years. But unless those unknowns turn into good/great players, this team won't be elite. And the odds of those unknowns turning into good/great players in one year are very, very low.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I think TJ's intangibles as a point guard will be shown to be above average. Playing at his tempo, it's been said again and again that he makes the players around him better.

As for the "unknowns", I don't think they're actually that unknown at all. They're closer now to proven commodities than they are to unknowns.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

SkywalkerAC said:


> I think TJ's intangibles as a point guard will be shown to be above average. Playing at his tempo, it's been said again and again that he makes the players around him better.


Admittedly intangibles is a pretty broad category, but TJ's injury history knocks him down to an average in my mind, at least until he's shown to be completely recovered for a sufficient length of time.



SkywalkerAC said:


> As for the "unknowns", I don't think they're actually that unknown at all. They're closer now to proven commodities than they are to unknowns.


Until somebody has played in the NBA for a full year, give or take, they remain an unknown, in my opinion. Any speculation you might make about how they'll play in the NBA is exactly that, speculation.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I know it's only preseason but I feel like I have a pretty good feel for their composition. Like Jack was saying last night, these guys aren't going to be giving up on plays, they hustle. They're going to be coming at you all night and on every loose ball. We are going to be giving hard fouls. We're also going to be making smart plays and taking smart shots; I love the basketball IQ on this team now. I think we'll shoot a good percentage, rebound the ball, challenge shots, force turnovers, and get out on the break. 

Is it going to work perfectly right out of the gate? No but no teams are going to be error-free to start the season. Is or has this team already gelled? Yes, I think it's pretty certain that they have. I think we're going to suprise some teams to start the season, whether they prepare for us thoroughly or not, and we're going to get better with time. 

I see no reason why the Raptors won't be fighting for the Atlantic Division title this season. Think Kidd will have an easy time trying to keep up with TJ? Think Carter will have an easy time contesting all our shots while we throw physical defenders on his all game long? Collins and Krystic better be in pretty good shape or they're going to get left behind by Bosh and Bargnani.

haha, this is fun. bring on the elite


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

bump


Raps have gained significant momentum into the all-star break and are well on their way to becoming a great team.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

i think that we're about 2 players away from becoming an elite team...we need an additional athletic defensive wing player (someone similar to AP but younger) and an athletic defensive 4/5 to alter shots and rebound for us...

with that said, i think that the 06/07 season, we can consider ourselves as a "good" or "very good" team...


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

NeoSamurai said:


> i think that we're about 2 players away from becoming an elite team...we need an additional athletic defensive wing player (someone similar to AP but younger) and an athletic defensive 4/5 to alter shots and rebound for us...
> 
> with that said, i think that the 06/07 season, we can consider ourselves as a "good" or "very good" team...



we don't need any of that stuff.. another defensive player like ap but younger??? lol Worry about that in 3 years. All the Raptors need is time.. i like the team but it's young and mature beyond their years. Bargnani and Ford are the core along with bosh and they are 21, 22 and 23 respectively. The style the raptors play is original and I consider it elite making the toronto raptors elite.. my point will be proven in the next 10 games barring injury


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

The elite teams are the legit Championship contenders. Teams that are proven winners in the regular season and have advanced in the playoffs.

That means Miami, SanAnt, Detroit, Dallas, Phoenix

Then you get a bunch of pretenders who seem pretty good on paper and look good sometimes but still haven't proven anything. You expect them to make the playoffs but that's it.

Teams like Chicago, Utah, Cleveland, Lakers, Washington, Houston, Clips, and Denver. It would take a miracle run for any of these teams to win a championship this year.

Everyone else is struggling just to get into that second tier of pretenders right now, including Toronto. We are riding high right now, but are only a few games up on the 8th seed and overall record in the conference is how you judge us.

I look at Washington and Cleveland as benchmarks. These are teams that are supposed to be much better than us. They have good balance inside and out, more interior muscle than us, and lots of bigtime players on the perimeter. But something is missing from both these clubs. They are flawed. They don't have the chemistry and team play of Toronto. They don't play consistently hard like the Raps. So overall it doesn't look like we are far behind these guys even though they have clear advantages over us in key areas. Part of that is they don't have big name coaches to keep their stars in cheque. There is no Pat Riley, Larry Brown, Phil Jackson, Chuck Daly type of coach to control the big egos. They also don't run strong systems and have no real identity beyond being Gilbert and Lebron's teams. That's coaching too.

The next few weeks will tell the story. If the Raps finish strong then they go into next year as part of that second tier you expect to make the playoffs.

But as much as I like what the club is doing right now I can't help but feel they have run into a perfect storm situation with Eastern teams imploding and underachieving all around them. Miami, NJ, Indiana, Milwaukee, Boston, Philly, have all been big disappointments in the East while even Chicago, Washington, and Cleveland have been far less than impressive.

Is this a fluke year for those teams or will they continue to be mediocre?

Raps still have lots to prove just to move into the second tier. We may even take a step back next year before we really move forward with a complete team. A NJ rebound and a healthy Milwaukee team could be all it takes to knock us out of the playoffs next year. Hard to judge where we stand right now.

We are on the right path and that is all that counts.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by *lucky777s !*
> 
> But as much as I like what the club is doing right now I can't help but feel they have run into a perfect storm situation with Eastern teams imploding and underachieving all around them.


this is what I think many people are a failing to realize, that the Raptors "success" of late can in part be attributed to the pitiful state of the east.

NJ, Washington, Millwaukee, Miami are teams that would be a lot better if they were healthy and would all but elimate the Raps from playoff contention.

I think that the Raps have overachieved and I think that as teams now prepare for us more, I think this team will come back down to earth, which is fine with me, cause we are a young team that is still building.

The future is bright for this team, but at this time I think Fans and media alike, have gotten a bit ahead of themselves.


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## TJ Ford (Dec 16, 2006)

I agree that we have overachieved a bit this season. But look on the bright side, at least we are finding ways to win. That's what is important.

Peace:bsmile:


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

I do not believe that this team has over-achieved this season. I think we are a good team. IF we were overachieving we would not beat the lakers, or the bulls. We are beating these teams because we are playing as a cohesive unit, a team. And i dont see how the Bucks or Orlando would ever beat us out of a playoff position when we are the better team then both, if anything Orlando was the one that was overachieving and have not come back to earth, because their main player, Dwight Howard is not yet ready to take that team to the next level. As for Milwaukee, we beat them in the second game of the season, in convincing fashion as well, they were also very healthy at that time

This team is finally winning the games its should win, putting them in that unique breed of teams, that you just know are going to make the hop to elite status sooner, i don't think their is another team like that, other then us, because we will internally get better next season, with Parker/Garbo/Ford all growing and getting more accustomed to and mature with age(in TJ's case). And finally the emergence of our next star in Andrea. and lets not forget that our main guy Mr. Bosh just keeps getting better and better, and who knows how good he will be next season. 

To sum up, Elite team? Not yet. Very good team, yep. But the raptors are coming, and coming fast


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

While the rest of teh east has sucked as much as my spelling in this post, I don't think the Raptors are overachieving. This just reminds me of all the times we would look at the roster in the past, and then see our team show flashes but to proceed to suck, and complain about the team's underachieving. And I legitimately believe we underachieved, with or without Vince. This is what our team could have been then, but is now. It's not overachieving, it's just achieving.

I think the problem is our losing mentality. We're so used to failure and underachievement, that any success is overachievement. Don't let that drag down the team or your perception of it though. We're a good team right now, and not entirely due to circumstance, and like Lucky said we're on the right track, and that's the most important thing.


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> I think the problem is our losing mentality. We're so used to failure and underachievement, that any success is overachievement. Don't let that drag down the team or your perception of it though. We're a good team right now, and not entirely due to circumstance, and like Lucky said we're on the right track, and that's the most important thing.


good looking out...repped

EDIT: You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Budweiser_Boy again.

ill get at you


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

3rd in the East. Soon to be Atlantic Division Champions. We've showcased our depth and star power (or potential) all season. We hit shots and we get after it as a team. And we're just getting started.

We're good. Elite? I guess we'll leave that up to the playoffs to decide. Like I said before the season, I think we've got elite composition and that we should come together reasonably quickly. Have they played with each other enough and learned how to win enough to be an elite, contending playoff team? 

It sure is going to be fun finding out.


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## Divine Spammer (Jul 11, 2005)

TRON said:


> this is what I think many people are a failing to realize, that the Raptors "success" of late can in part be attributed to the pitiful state of the east.
> 
> NJ, Washington, Millwaukee, Miami are teams that would be a lot better if they were healthy and would all but elimate the Raps from playoff contention.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of what have been said here. 
The east is so weak... some teams are tanking this season for a high draft pick and a better shot at Oden/Durant, but other teams are just bad. 
However, I don't think the east is going to be a lot stronger in the next few years. Let's see what's happening now in some other teams in the eastern confrence, that were considered strong until this season or are still considered strong:
*Wizards*- the Arenas-Jamison-Butler trio has proven to be a success, but they are still lacking depth and some scoring from their big men. 
They have good talent in the backcourt, but their frontcourt is full of carpenters, which is a nice Israeli expression for a player who knows to put a body and take some boards on the defensive end, but has little or no talent for offensive game. They must add some talent in those areas in oreder to be a contender. If not, they'll continue to be mediocre and they will depend more and more on Gilbert's moods.

*NJ* is similar but they're worse. They have absolutely no depth, and they're aging. Kidd is the engine of this team, and the years cover him with rust. 
Carter isn't getting young either, and he might not stay there after the summer. Carter's scoring is vital for NJ, a team that even at their best were lacking a scorer like Vince, and were driven by strong defensive play and Kidd's ability to make plays for the rest of the team. 
Krstic isn't a player you can build around, and RJ has a lot to prove. 
Other then that they have nothing. And they're not bad enough at the moment, so they will continue to go to nowhere until they rebuild.

*Indy* must rebuild or at least shake their roster, and that takes time.

*Miami*- They're an old team. If their youngs (Wright, Barron) don't start to shine, they'll find themselves in troubles. Shaq is still dominant, but his time is short. They have Wade of course, but it may not be enough to be an elite team for a long period of time. 

*Detroit* isn't as dominant as they used to be with Wallace. They have a veteran team, and they need to make some moves if they want to stay on top.

As I see it, the rising forces in the east are Chicago, Milwaukee (if they make some right moves this summer) and the Raps. Lebron's Cavs will continue to improve, but they're too flawed to be a real contender.
Other than that, most of the teams will continue to be mediocre or at the bottom of the league (see- Atlanta). Maybe Boston would turn strong with Oden/Durant and a decent management. 

The Raptors are looking good and have a young core. We overachieved this season, but for next years our stars should return better and team cheimestry should even improve because there won't be big changes.
With this possitive trend in our roster and a prudent move or two in the summer, we can reach 50+ wins in a probably stronger east. 
In the year after we need to be at the con' finals. 
Our core will be entering their prime in the following year, and if we really want to be a contender we must make another step forward...


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

shookem said:


> I have a hard time believing they'll be competing for the division title _late_ in the season, unless we stay healthy and everyone else gets injured.


Damn, when I saw these thread was brought back I was kinda worried.
I can live with what I said though, it's kinda true.


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## chocolove (Apr 4, 2006)

shookem said:


> Damn, when I saw these thread was brought back I was kinda worried.
> I can live with what I said though, it's kinda true.


Man that first post you had was really spot on


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

SkywalkerAC said:


> 3rd in the East. Soon to be Atlantic Division Champions. We've showcased our depth and star power (or potential) all season. We hit shots and we get after it as a team. And we're just getting started.
> 
> We're good. Elite? I guess we'll leave that up to the playoffs to decide. Like I said before the season, I think we've got elite composition and that we should come together reasonably quickly. Have they played with each other enough and learned how to win enough to be an elite, contending playoff team?
> 
> It sure is going to be fun finding out.


Well Sky, I gotta say this thread is equivalent to Chuck Swirsky bringing out the "salami and cheese" before halftime hits. 

:bowdown:


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

chocolove said:


> Man that first post you had was really spot on


When I'm right, I'm right but when I'm wrong brother ... Let's just say we would've picked AMMO, yikes!


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

Benis007 said:


> it will be huge if we make the playoffs. if we make it and get swept in the 1st round, this season will be a success.


not that i won't be disappointed if we get swept, but i still back my statement from august.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

You could certainly point to the team having the best record in the East since the New Year (29-15) as a reason for calling them an elite team.


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

This my friends is an ELITE TEAM. We have now taken on all the characteristics of an elite team. After the win tonight in Minnesota, i am saying here and now (not really a bold prediction) But this Raptors team is in a league of its own, not at the level of a Phoenix/Dallas/San An, but a notch below. Next year, beware, the Raptors are going to be in VERY VERY good company. 

Why do i say were elite? Well we are now beating teams we are supposed to beat, regardless of situation. Earlier this season, and hell even a month ago, we wouldve never beaten Minnesota on the tail end of a back-to-back. Not only did we win on a back-to-back, but after playing a tough Chicago team. 

We are now hearing more phrases like, the Raptors won a statement game. Chicago was a statement game, and we handled it. We now have what Charles Barkley calls "winning time", a sense of urgency that all DOMINANT teams have. We saw it in the Mavs when they beat us. It doesnt matter what happens for 36 minutes in the (the first 3 quarters today) when the Mavs realize that they needs this game, they turn "it" on. Which leads to an extended run that not only puts us in a position to win, but also absolutely deflates the other team. We did that today, as well as yesterday. Last night winning time hit us when we were down by 11, we made the right plays and went on a run, that saw us go up by 18 points, which put us in a position to win, and totally unraveled the Bulls, and made them make mental errors, while we sat back and played good defense and made the right plays. I dint watch the game today (24 was pretty hardcore) but a 38 point 4th quarter outburst leads me to believe that we made another extended run. 

Forget the standings, forget what the experts are saying, this Toronto team has arrived. I'm saying it here and now, the raptors are a FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH. Nobody should want to play this Raptor team in the playoffs. Take it in fellas, we are damn good, very damn Good.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

*Raptors move 1 game behind Bulls, Cavs for 2nd in East*
Toronto improved to 32-15 since Jan. 1 -- the best record in the Eastern Conference.


HOW SICK IS THAT!?!?!?!?!?

Suddenly, my habs lost doesn't feel so painful...


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

bump. 

i know we're a long way starting this next season but if we couldn't look at the Raps as an elite team heading into (and maybe only i could), we certainly can next year.

at the heart of it all we simply have an awesome starting 5 (and yes, i'm going to assume that Andrea is take his game to another level and will be our starting center) and we have perhaps the best depth in the league.

with bargnani in year 2 and bosh in year 5, we have one of the very best starting 4/5 combinations in the league, and they're in the right system to flourish. 

ford and calderon should form the best point guard rotation in the league; outside phoenix anyway. their ability to hit jumpers (and they are going to be proficient in this area, make no mistake) is going to make this team unguardable. 

we are going to get money looks at the basket every time up the court and since our shooting will be improved (Andrea starting, improvement from CB4, TJ, Jose, and addition of Kapono) we're going to run and get a lot of them (more than last year). 

we've got savvy vets, hungry hustle players looking for contracts, an allstar that demands double teams,a team that will punish you for doubling or playing zone, and an unstoppable pick and roll game. 

i bump this thread now because i think we're pretty much ready for the season. we'll add our third point guard and the gang will continue their offseason training regiments but i think this is how we'll go into training camp.

because this is an elite team. this is how a team is supposed to be composed. we're savvy and confident and versatile. we've got a complete team, for the first time ever really, 1-15. 

are we on the same level as Dallas, Detroit, Houston, Cleveland, Phoenix, and San Antonio? i certainly think we are.


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

I think you're being very optimistic - let's just say I don't think a non-raptors fan would place you in the Pistons/Spurs/Suns category.

To be honest, if they're completely healthy, i wouldn't even place you on the same level as Houston. A healthy T-Mac and Yao should beat raptors.

Obviously, you know your own players strengths best, but what exactly are you expecting from Andrea? That he's gonna become a 20/10 player? (this year)

I agree with quite a lot of what you said though:



> we've got savvy vets, hungry hustle players looking for contracts, an allstar that demands double teams,a team that will punish you for doubling or playing zone, and an unstoppable pick and roll game.


That's all true (though who are these hungry hustle players looking for contracts? Humphries is like the 4th or 5th big, right? I don't think players on that level count, even if it is contract year..)


Don't get me wrong, I'm expecting a second round appearance, with at least 1 or 2 wins, out of the Raptors, but even that depends on match-ups - now that Boston has improved, and with New Jersey perhaps healthier this year, you can't guarantee the Celtics win the Atlantic. And if they don't, they could be facing the Pistons, Bulls, Cavs, Heat/Wizards in the first round, which would obviously be tough.

I think Toronto fans have reason to be optimistic though. You have 2 good young bigs, an excellent point guard rotation, and a host of decent wing players, as well as Colangelo.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Elite means legit championship contenders to me. You can't put the Raps in that category until they at least win a playoff series. 

Right now you can almost put the Raps in the 2nd tier of teams that SHOULD make the playoffs, but nothing more. Let's see how Kapono and Delfino pan out first, and what improvement we get out of Bargs, Bosh, TJ, etc.

A healthy Miami squad and Detroit are still tops in the East. And DAL/SAN/PHX are powerhouse teams with proven track records so you can't put the Raps in that category.

Raps can arguably be put on the same level as the Wiz, Bulls, Jazz, Nets, Rockets, and even the Cavs who were lucky to get to a Final and aren't a vastly superior team but we still need to prove that last year was for real.


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

Personally, I expect the Raptors do to worse that last year. The East has gotten better/tougher, healthier (for now) and the Raptors' schedule, if everyone remembers, was quite weak. 
They played alot of a sub .500 ball clubs. I think their schedule won't be as easy, therefore making it hard for them to do well.
Call me pessimist, but I'm seriously under that impression. Quote me on it actually if you'd like.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Winning the division was a tremendous step in our progression towards championship contenders, but elite status requires consistency, I suppose. Do it again and elite is the right word, IMHO.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Elite team should not be used to describe the Raps yet. We should see a team that is a consistant playoff team, but we do need to take the step that KG and the T-wolves could not....get out of the first round and make some noise!

I like the make-up of this team and feel we have the pieces to be a top 4 team in the East. Bosh, Ford, and Parker are my locks to start. I feel they will preform very well. Bosh will be an Allstar again, Ford should be close as well. With a full year under his belt with the squad look for his numbers to rise a litte. Parker is a great 2 way player and is an important glue guy for this team. I expect Bargnani to start at the 5 spot, and if he improves even only slightly we have a great option at that position. Andrea should be better rebounder this season just by default! Add his shot blocking and scoring ability and he (as we all know) will be a match-up nightmare. The 3 spot is still the question as to who will start, will Garbs come back from his injury, will Joey's time with the team prove to be the advantage early in the year, or will Kapono show off a more complete game then what we feel he has? I am not sure, but I like the options we have.

I hope the team gets off to a faster start then they have in the last few seasons. I believe that if we can start the 2007/08 season with a 7-3 record after the first 10 we will be ready for a very good season. I hope for nothing less then 6-4.


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

When you say top 4, do you mean in wins/talent, or in seed?
As getting a top 4 seed doesn't mean you necesarrily have a top 4 record.

In the Central, I'd imagine the Bulls, Pistons and Possibly Cavs all to have better records.
Then one of either Miami or Washington is gonna be ahead of you, seeding wise.

so..


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## icehawk (May 30, 2003)

:lol: @ Elite.

But seriously, I think we're respectable now barring any injuries.

We have a great point guard rotation with Ford and Calderon, both capable starters IMO.

We're a bit weak when it comes to post D and rebounding at the big man spots, but with Bargnani and Bosh there should be no absence of scoring. Considering the many terrible centers in the East, I don't think Bargnani will do so bad. Also, have Garbs and Rasho off the bench is a big plus.

The main problem we have is at wing. We really need an all-star there. We got Parker, who's solid but unspectacular, and three would-be-back-ups competing for the 3 spot. 

I think once we get our wing and Bargnani, along with Ford, reach their full potential, we should be contenders.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

We certinly can match last season's record or be better but alot of the weaker teams really upgraded so thier will be less cakewalks now in the East, maybe just Philly.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

From a pessimistic point of view, I don't think the Celtics improved much. They still don't have a point guard to make Allen and Pierce better. And the Knicks just added one of the most troubled players in the league, who is going from Oregon to NYC--no problems there, nope, can't see what might go wrong in that situation. I also don't like the idea of an immature player like Randolph playing for one of the most immature coaches in NBA history.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

You really think Barg is going to start at C? Now THAT'S optimistic. I'd rather see Bosh at C and Barg at PF if anything.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

GregOden said:


> You really think Barg is going to start at C? Now THAT'S optimistic. I'd rather see Bosh at C and Barg at PF if anything.


Bosh is already a bit broken down from being overused in the post early in his career. After investing max money in him I don't think we want to keep pushing him in that direction.

Mitchell plans on starting Mago at centre this season, and in turn Mago has been working on rebounding and playing in the paint this summer instead of playing for the national team.

Mago is bigger than Bosh so hopefully it works out better for him.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

speedythief said:


> From a pessimistic point of view, I don't think the Celtics improved much. They still don't have a point guard to make Allen and Pierce better. And the Knicks just added one of the most troubled players in the league, who is going from Oregon to NYC--no problems there, nope, can't see what might go wrong in that situation. I also don't like the idea of an immature player like Randolph playing for one of the most immature coaches in NBA history.


Rondo is going to be fine as the point next to Ray Ray and Paul - it actually works well for them - he does not need to shoot much to be effective with all the perimeter shots these two should be taking. Boston is going to do just fine (barring injuries) in the nest 2-3 years.

As for Randolph in NY - the real issue is that they now have 2 black holes low post players clogging the lane. If Isiah has any idea about what he is doing - Curry should be moved for whatever they get for him. A Lee/Randolph pair will work great - Randolph is an upgrade on Curry in terms of scoring and rebounds. Like Curry he is not great on D and passing out of the post - but just putting Randolph instead of Curry in there will make them a more proficient low-scoring offense and a much better rebounding team.

NY should be better this year. Even if they keep both Randolph and Curry - they will get at least one good low-post scorer for 48 minutes of the game - something they did not have last year whenever Curry went to the bench.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Again, I think it comes down to composition. I think we've got elite team composition (thank you Mr Colangelo), right up there with Detroit's and better than Miami's and Cleveland's. We've got the reining coach of the year and he's got all the pieces he needs to succeed. Team's are simply not going to be able to stop us. 

As for our hungry muscle, we've got Hump and Joey. Both could find themselves languishing on the bench (thanks to our outstanding depth) but both could also earn substantial minutes. Don't forget that Hump is still very young and is the best rebounder on the team, aside from Bosh.

That said, New York is hugely underrated. They've got pretty good composition too. If IT can get them playing with a winning swagger, watch out.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

I wouldnt say we're ELITE yet (defintely elite in the East though), we have a way to go with defense and rebounding.

In a couple years, yes.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

As ballocks said, the time is now. This team has been put together to compete for a championship right now. 

If you believe that Andrea is going to be playing on a very high level - and I think he's going to be playing at a borderline allstar level - you've got to consider us to be one of the top teams in the league. We were last year when he only started to hit his stride. I guess we'll see how far he's come when he hits the floor with the Italian National team and don't be suprised if he dominates the competition in that tournament.

No we're not one of the best rebounding or defensive teams but we're going to have one of the best offenses in the league. I guess even Raptor fans don't see the progression our team has made since last year, as it hasn't been made in dramatic fashion. 

This is a really good team. I like our starting five more than the defending champions' and I like our bench more too. Is Bosh on Duncan's level? Not quite but he's not all that far behind either. Is TJ on Parker's level? How about AP and Bowen? Bargnani and Oberto?

No the game isn't played on paper but this team isn't a bunch of individuals. It is better than the sum of its parts, just like the Spurs. I just happen to like our parts, even better than theirs. 

Call me a homer, I just think that people forget that A) despite gelling very quickly this team was only just learning to play together last year and B) how much our young players should improve this offseason.


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## Brenton (Nov 1, 2006)

I didn't view this entire thread because I can only imagine what type of posts some Net's fans have possibly made.

To answer the question though: No, I don't think the Raptors are an elite team yet. We'll see what this season brings... but I still think the elite teams are out west. The Spurs and Suns are the only real elite teams in my estimation.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

damn, i just erased some great work! 

oh well. 

raptors are going to be sweet next year. that is all.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Again, with the first reports of our 2007/2008 squad coming out, the more and more I see this team as a contender, and I suppose that should be the most important criteria when judging a team's competitiveness. 

Contender for what? Most regular season wins. Championship.

Is this team to young or inexperienced to compete for these titles? I don't think they are. 

Sure it's easy to sit back and say "wait until we get past the first round, then we can talk about the next step." Why temper your enthusiasm for this team? 

I'm not advocating overrating your team and blindly spewing that the championship is locked down, or other such ignorance. I'm merely stating that when I imagine this finely crafted team hitting its stride this season, I see championship-calibre ball being played. There are going to be a number of other teams playing in the same range but I don't foresee any strata above the level we should fall at.

Dallas ran away with the league last year. They absolutely killed it. They got knocked out in the first round. 

The Champions from the previous year were kicked on last season. The Spurs are a Tim Duncan injury away from the same fate. The championship is up for grabs.

Many project the Bulls to be the best team in the Eastern Conference. I partially buy into that, to tell you the truth, but do any of you think that we aren't going to be running with the Bulls all season?

The NBA has never seen a squad like ours. Our overall shooting ability is off the charts. We've got the play makers and the finishers. We've got the man power.

So why not forecast it?

We're contenders. Right now - contenders. Here we come.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I know it's just one game but our Raps definitely looked elite tonight. And they did it in stride. That margin of victory was no fluke against the Nets. If you don't play at an elite level vs Toronto, you're usually going to get stomped.

Bosh had 15 and 5 and we slaughtered a rival. Elite.


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## Chan Ho Nam (Jan 9, 2007)

^ Nets dont count as good competition

if we can win more than lose against the better teams : Suns / mavericks / spurs / pistons / celtics etc you know those ones then i would consider Raptors to be one of the emerging potentially Elite teams

The raptors were very close in beating some of those Elite teams last year though, remember the Mavericks game at home? the Suns game? the Pistons game? i do vividly

what the Raptors lack is a good low post presence, a banger, everything in the backcourt is perfect


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

we know this team can score, but if they Defend like they did last night then this team could easily be considered elite......I'm not totally convinced yet, but much more optimistic.


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

if we are an elite team, we aren't one that anyone cares about. not one of the major sports website (ie. espn, yahoo, cnnsi, etc.) even mentioned the results of the game last night in any of their headlines. headlines like 'Sharpton won't protest Knicks home games' and 'Cavs F Marshall to miss game vs. Suns' were apparently more interesting.


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## Chan Ho Nam (Jan 9, 2007)

^ LOL really?

Rick Kamla gave props to the Raptors for destroying the supposedly best backcourt in the NBA, LOL, he acknowledges that no one is giving the Raptors much credit


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/preview?gid=2007110428


Is Boston playing themselves tomorrow?


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

Rick Kamla has been pumping the Raps since training camp when most "experts" had little to say.

Boston is the hot story across the league, so it's not surprising that the Raps have taken a back seat to them. 

I think the oversight of the Raps on the part of US media is a good thing. The team has to prove itself to the league all over again, and that should provide motivation and hopefully avoid complacentcy on their part.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

chairman5 said:


> ^ LOL really?
> 
> Rick Kamla gave props to the Raptors for destroying the supposedly best backcourt in the NBA, LOL, he acknowledges that no one is giving the Raptors much credit


Umm didnt this same team send you guys packing in the playoffs. Shouldnt this present Raps team win a playoff series FIRST before handing them elite status title. Winning a game in November is meaningless as compared to the larger goal.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> Umm didnt this same team send you guys packing in the playoffs. Shouldnt this present Raps team win a playoff series FIRST before handing them elite status title. Winning a game in November is meaningless as compared to the larger goal.


This thread was obviously made by an very optimistic raptor fan, it was indicated by around the 4th post like more than a half year ago. But thank you for stating the obvious, I'm sure nobody saw this coming.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

^You do know my post was in response to the guy who thinks the Nets are a JV team right lol.


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