# SL Game 4 vs Grizzlies



## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Today at 3:00 PM Pacific and it will be on NBAtv so I can finally watch a game :yay: :clap2: :clap: :azdaja:


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

Nice, I think the games that they show on NBAtv have commentators for the online feed.


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## hutcht02 (Sep 22, 2006)

I'm anxious to see Diaz play D on Conley. If he does a decent job keeping him under control, I can't imagine he'll be passed up when it comes to guarenteeing contracts. Same goes for Jordan, but like we learned from the Conroy experiment: Passing is great, but we also need our PG's to be an offensive threat to be effective. I'm just not sure how much of an offensive threat Jordan is yet.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

Haha Clipper Darrell is at the game and representing.


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## dmilesai (Jul 19, 2002)

Kaman looking good like he should.


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Oh god, Joel Meyers is announcing the game? He killed it...I want to see some of Korolev damnit

Same with Radenovic


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## PAIDNFULL23 (Jul 9, 2005)

I thought the game was on NBAtv? So why no commentators on the online feed?


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

PAIDNFULL23 said:


> I thought the game was on NBAtv? So why no commentators on the online feed?


Thats what I am wondering as well.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

Lag is killing me.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

Too much lag for me, I can't watch anymore...


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## dmilesai (Jul 19, 2002)

I hate when people (mostly commentators) say they're surprised Abukar has range. All the guy did in college was shoot jumpers and he always shot NBA range 3's, which is the big reason why his 3 % wasn't too high.


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## dmilesai (Jul 19, 2002)

Two North San Diego county players in this game in Rod Benson and Mohamed Abukar. Both were fun to watch in high school although Benson was a late bloomer.


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

*Two Best Players:*

Al Thornton: 14/5 on 6-9 shooting. May have 5 turnovers, but he has played well, mainly on the defensive end. I'm loving the pick of Al now, more then ever

Jared Jordan: 2/4 with 0 turnovers. Jordan seees the floor really well and hasn't turned it over, with 4 dimes. He might not be a high flyer, but he isn't slow either. 


Everyone else is so/so. Davis is showing off, as are Conroy and Diaz, but not at the level of JJ and Al.

But the MVP thus far is Clipper Darrell!! 

Let's go Clippers, Let's go! :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :lol:


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

dmilesai said:


> Kaman looking good like he should.




are you serious??? just wondering...i am dying to see some improvement in the big fella...


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## PAIDNFULL23 (Jul 9, 2005)

For those who are watching the game on NBA TV, what are the commentators saying about the Clippers?


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## dmilesai (Jul 19, 2002)

bootstrenf said:


> are you serious??? just wondering...i am dying to see some improvement in the big fella...


He was looking good in the first two minutes...Since then not so much.

Davis with a nice dunk on the putback.

EDIT: Kaman looking good again.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

dmilesai said:


> He was looking good in the first two minutes...*Since then not so much*.
> 
> Davis with a nice dunk on the putback.
> 
> EDIT: Kaman looking good again.



hahaha...thanks for the update...

shouldn't a $50 million caliber player be dominating freakin *summer league*???


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## PAIDNFULL23 (Jul 9, 2005)

Diaz with a high flying dunk


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

dammit, i wish i could watch the game...


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## PAIDNFULL23 (Jul 9, 2005)

Kamen blows another easy layup


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## PAIDNFULL23 (Jul 9, 2005)

Wow. Thornton with the sweet spin and the jam on the fast break. That will be on Sportscenter


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## PAIDNFULL23 (Jul 9, 2005)

Thornton is a beast!


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

PAIDNFULL23 said:


> For those who are watching the game on NBA TV, what are the commentators saying about the Clippers?


Not much, but I hated it when Dun was being interviewed by Joel Meyerz, it was is if Joel was attempting to subtly put the Clippers down


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

PAIDNFULL23 said:


> Thornton is a beast!


Yes he is, I'm the newest member on the Thornton bandwagon. Deal Maggette to give us something at least, Thornton can pick it up easily. May have been SL, but he was all over Gay and played well all around.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

I'm unable to watch the game, but it's nice to see that some eyes are being opened to Thornton's skills.


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## PAIDNFULL23 (Jul 9, 2005)

qross1fan said:


> Not much, but I hated it when Dun was being interviewed by Joel Meyerz, it was is if Joel was attempting to subtly put the Clippers down


Yeah that Laker announcer is a major Laker d***rider. He's easily the biggest homer I have ever heard.


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

PAIDNFULL23 said:


> Yeah that Laker announcer is a major Laker d***rider. He's easily the biggest homer I have ever heard.


Yes he is, and he is painfully boring. I was bored out of my mind with his raspy voice, only reason I had the volume up was to hear some good ol Clipper Darrel chants, which I did.

Thornton is *SICK*


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

PAIDNFULL23 said:


> Yeah that Laker announcer is a major Laker d***rider. He's easily the biggest homer I have ever heard.



stu lance(sp?) that fool is a homer too...i can't stand kcal broadcasts...


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

Most announcers are these days, just the way it is. The Clippers though do have the best regular season announce team, gotta love Ralph & Mike.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

bootstrenf said:


> stu lance(sp?) that fool is a homer too...i can't stand kcal broadcasts...


Lantz...just for the record.:biggrin:


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

Showtime87 said:


> Lantz...just for the record.:biggrin:



thank you...


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## Starbury03 (Aug 12, 2003)

Thornton played very good and I am very happy with the pick now. Kaman played well but still finish's too weak, DUNK THE BALL! Same with you Paul Davis. Diaz looked okay but shot a low percentage and Jordan played decent.


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## shaunliv (Sep 12, 2005)

qross1fan said:


> Yes he is, and he is painfully boring. I was bored out of my mind with his raspy voice, only reason I had the volume up was to hear some good ol Clipper Darrel chants, which I did.


Hey, as much as I love our announcers (Lawler & Smith), even i will admit that they are homers just as much as the Lakers announcers!


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

shaunliv said:


> Hey, as much as I love our announcers (Lawler & Smith), even i will admit that they are homers just as much as the Lakers announcers!



not really...ralph is as unbiased as you can get, and mike seems to always like the other team's star more than ours...

the biggest homers are the celtic announcers...if anyone has time and nbatv, watch a celtics broadcast...they are *bad*...


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## TakingitbyStorm (Jul 1, 2007)

Now that is what I've been waiting to see. They actually played with intensity and purpose. This is what I saw:

Thornton: Played good as far as scoring and D goes, his turnovers were pretty bad. I chalk them up to not playing with players that he can trust in the past. He has to get used to passing at this level and the next, but overall played well.

Kaman: Best game so far, and he actually admitted that he wasn't in shape after the game. His main barrier seems to be mental. 
My advise to Kaman would be to work on the things you set out to improve; jumpshot and passing that way you wont get slaughtered by onlookers like myself...hey, it's only summerleague.

Davis: Played well and showed more hustle getting back. Good positioning and rotation. This one is short, but in a good way.

Jordan: Played to his strengths. He took some key shots, which is what I was looking to see from him in the previous games. 
Still appears to be playing his cards, but who can blame him. 
Also I think he is the second best ballhandler on the team next to CASSELL. Livingston's dribble has always been shaky because he is tall. I think he would be a good fit here since we run a quasi-zone defense like the Suns.

Diaz: Hit some big baskets and I have to give him propers on D. The ball is in his court now as I think that Elgin has/will lobby for him to get all the chances in the world to make the team. 
Note to Diaz: Your scoring is your strength, but you can easily solidify this spot by showing that you can distribute the ball somewhat. Establish that aspect first, then concentrate on getting your shots.

Conroy: Did a solid job...unfortunately, solid is not going to cut it in the summer league. If we want solid, we can always sign Hart. Anyone should see now that the main event at the pg position is Conroy vs. Jordan.

Gansey: Don't want to say anything negative here...you gave Diaz a couple of good breathers.

Sy: Solidified the game from the FT line, and hit a clutch shot when the lead was going back and forth. I wish there were room for him because he brings a good D presence to the floor.

Abukar: Played decent, but the other aspect(or lack thereof) of his game were exposed in this one.

The team as a whole played better and Dun just happened to be attending this game? They all still need to work on getting back in transition, but overall this was much easier on the eyes.

Anyone I didn't mention, not to worry, you got paid.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

bootstrenf said:


> not really...ralph is as unbiased as you can get, and mike seems to always like the other team's star more than ours...
> 
> the biggest homers are the celtic announcers...if anyone has time and nbatv, watch a celtics broadcast...they are *bad*...


Agree 100%. Tom Heinsohn is the absolute biggest homer in any sport. He's completely nauseating....

I don't see Ralph or Mike being very biased either. Of course they want the Clippers to do well, but they're always fair in terms of calling it as it is.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Man, I thought I liked Al Thornton -- those announcers on NBATV were talking about him like he's the best thing since sliced bread. I love the one part when they were talking about how good he is and pulls up for a jumper and misses it and the one guy is like, "he even looks great on that miss!" and went on and on for another couple minutes. 

Now in my opinion he played really well today, he had a couple instances where tunnel vision killed him and forced him into turnovers I saw coming from a mile away. He did feed the post (Kaman mostly) very well. That one spin move on the fast break was sick, and I love how he did it so confidently after picking up a charge with the same exact move a couple minutes prior. He takes the ball to the rim so hard in the open court I honestly hold my breath every time he hits that next gear. One thing I've noticed about him is that his catch and shoot ability looks much improved from his days at Florida State. He was much more of a threat to drill a jumper off the dribble than off a pass in college. He was coming off screens and drilling jumpers with defenders right on him. His defense on Gay was superb today, really no other way to put it. He made the best and most accomplished player on the other team a non-factor. Good game from Al, he needs to work on a few things of course that I mentioned, but he's looking really good out there.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Still not sold on thornton being a good fit for the team. Hes doing about how i thought he would, slightly worse considering his featured role on this team. Again, not to say he wouldnt be all rookie first team on a team like seattle or charlotte or something, but summer league is all about exposing weaknesses. Bellineli...shows what happens when your a chucker (isnt he like 10 of his last 35 shots or something?) Oden, learning about the foul calling, and playing with guys your size. Durant, learning about being out muscled. Kaman and coaches using summerleauge to work on his negative things, and teach him new roles.

With thornton, we all know the positives. Great athleticsm, ok midrange game, gets after boards. Being the superstar on your college team, not a lot of your potential NBA weaknesses are shown, thats what the summer league is for. And so far his weaknesses are almost all exactly the pet peeves of dunleavvy. Bad decision making, leading to a grip load of TO's each game, giving dunleavvy deja vu of maggette. Not a consistent outside shot, again a thing that dun has against maggette. Too many fouls. Not many handles. All the things that dunleavvy hates about guys like maggette, and previous players who have been jettisoned from the team (right or wrong).

I think thorntons defense is already better than maggette's is, thats something new to me, i wasnt sure how he would be at defending the 3. However, he also does not have the efficiency of maggette as far as points/FG attempts. Like this game, it was like 19 attempts for 19 points, or something.

So basically, as i had stated all along, he is very similar to singleton and maggette so far. Singleton had a better summerleague, yet i think thornton has a slight edge in all around game due to his faster lateral movement. Hes not showing me anything that is going to take minutes away from thomas and maggette. Has he shown anything to you guys that convinces you he will be taking minutes away from those two guys?

Im convinced that we need to trade maggette, and trade him fast so that we can properly utilize him and not have another wasted pick. Id like some salary cap relief, lets trade him to a team that has one of those trade exceptions so that we dont have to take on any, or at least very little salary.


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## TakingitbyStorm (Jul 1, 2007)

Yam, I think you have a good accessment of Al, but I still don't agree with trying to bundle him with Singleton. This is why I think you will probably be always dissapointed with the move. Hi lateral movement and ability to create his shot are the two main things that actually compliment each other, but also are reasons that I prefer him or Singleton on this team. Just MO.

I would also like to add that trading Maggettte right at the moment I think could make us have to work a bit harder at sealing a playoff season. At the moment with the way it appears the roster will be looking, I feel that we will definitely make it, but I know that not everyone feels the same. If Maggs is traded, I would think it would be sometime right before the deadline. Who knows, maybe he will make himself irreplaceable with his play?


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

What you say about maggette again is why again i feel thornton was the bad selection. If there was a Sf/PF like a brandon wright, jeff green, or kevin durant that we had drafted, it would have been a different story as theres not much drop off between maggette and them as much as there is between thornton and maggette. Youre right, if we lose maggette for just nothing, while long term its a good move, immediately we lose offense since were not taking anything back, and thornton is not close to maggette overal. 

If we would have drafted a SG/SF, we would NOT have had to trade maggette just to give the guy PT, and at the same time, we had someone who could take over for maggette next year if he left as well. 

Lose lose situation as i always have said. I was hoping thornton would show me different things that made me believe that dunleavvy would use him, but i just dont see it. He gets after boards and hustles on Defense more than maggette, but not even CLOSE enough to deserve taking even 1 minute away from maggette. The rebounding is a plus, but i dont think thornton is as good a rebounder as singleton, and we see that rebounding didnt get singleton many minutes with dunleavvy.

The only chance thornton has at playing time this year, (barring trade,injury, holdouts, etc.), is if dunleavvy has a sudden reversal of preference, and completely benches ross, not wanting to offset cassells lack of defense like the last 2 years. If that happens, then i can see thornton getting ross's minutes. But hes not such a great 3 point shooter that he takes thomas minutes, hes not bringing more to the table than maggette, so hes not taking maggette's minutes, Ross's minutes is about the only chance he has to take, and even still, it would take a complete reversal of dunleavvys history for that to happen, and were talking like 10 minutes a game.


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## livingstononefour (Jun 19, 2006)

qross1fan said:


> Not much, but I hated it when Dun was being interviewed by Joel Meyerz, it was is if Joel was attempting to subtly put the Clippers down


yeah, he started asking dunleavy about the players he passed up on in the draft (stuckey, javaris c) and was asking what players he liked from other teams like dunleavy really gives a damn. lakers fans are nervous!


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## TakingitbyStorm (Jul 1, 2007)

> What you say about maggette again is why again i feel thornton was the bad selection. If there was a Sf/PF like a brandon wright, jeff green, or kevin durant that we had drafted, it would have been a different story as theres not much drop off between maggette and them as much as there is between thornton and maggette. Youre right, if we lose maggette for just nothing, while long term its a good move, immediately we lose offense since were not taking anything back, and thornton is not close to maggette overal.



We didn't have a shot at Durant or Green, and I don't think that Wright will be a better player than Thornton, but maybe you do.

I would be saying the same thing unless we drafted Durant, and even then it's a crapshoot when you're dealing with rookies. 
It took many years for Maggette to establish the reputation that he has in the L. I think that Thornton is already as good a scorer as Maggette as far as his perimeter shooting is concerned. All these guys would have the same hill to climb even if it were a sg/sf or a sf/pf. Since we can only go by summer league play, you would have to show me how these other players are so much less of a drop off than Al. The age and upside thinkg is getting old. Durant is the only one out of the bunch that may get a bit more special treatment because of his name. 

I am a big Maggette fan, but at the same time I don't think he wants to be here anymore, nor do I think that major money should be tied up in retaining him. We might have made one mistake already with Kaman, I don't want to make another commitment to a player unless it's an impact player.

I never said anything about losing Maggette for nothing. I said that it should not be immediately unless it were a situation that we couldn't pass up.

Cutting to the point, all the guys that you named were off the board when we picked, which goes back to I guess your back-up plan...Nick Young. I still feel we will have to wait and see if he is really going to be an impact player at the 2. I don't think many people realize how difficult it is for a player of his size to play the 3. Ross did okay, but he's had his problems with bigger players. We don't have a single player on the roster other than Maggette that we know can play that position on a full time basis. I think the FO was just being proactive, something we all have been begging for, for years. I think they should be commended.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

yamaneko said:


> Still not sold on thornton being a good fit for the team. Hes doing about how i thought he would, slightly worse considering his featured role on this team. Again, not to say he wouldnt be all rookie first team on a team like seattle or charlotte or something, but summer league is all about exposing weaknesses. Bellineli...shows what happens when your a chucker (isnt he like 10 of his last 35 shots or something?) Oden, learning about the foul calling, and playing with guys your size. Durant, learning about being out muscled. Kaman and coaches using summerleauge to work on his negative things, and teach him new roles.
> 
> With thornton, we all know the positives. Great athleticsm, ok midrange game, gets after boards. Being the superstar on your college team, not a lot of your potential NBA weaknesses are shown, thats what the summer league is for. And so far his weaknesses are almost all exactly the pet peeves of dunleavvy. Bad decision making, leading to a grip load of TO's each game, giving dunleavvy deja vu of maggette. Not a consistent outside shot, again a thing that dun has against maggette. Too many fouls. Not many handles. All the things that dunleavvy hates about guys like maggette, and previous players who have been jettisoned from the team (right or wrong).
> 
> ...


Decent assessment of his game, I just have one gripe. I don't think he showed poor decision making at all, I think his turnovers were mostly from having poor vision (which he definitely DOES have) and sloppy plays. I think he had pretty good shot selection and made some nice post feeds to Kaman.

Just another note, I think the poor efficiency is just a fluke and part of his adjustment. I don't expect it to stay as low as it is. He never shot under 50% from the floor in college. I think he's suffering from not touching the ball enough, not getting very many easy buckets due to being the main scoring option on the team and some of the other guys forcing things in an attempt to impress coaches and scouts. The whole lack of a team element to the Summer League is not more obvious in any team more so than the Clippers. Too many guys out there playing for themselves and forcing things. Al looks like he feels he needs to attack and take the first shot he can get when he touches the ball because he knows if he gives it up he's likely not getting it back. He'll score efficiently.

And I agree, Maggette should be traded. I still think Miami's a good potential trade partner.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> We didn't have a shot at Durant or Green, and I don't think that Wright will be a better player than Thornton, but maybe you do.


I never said we did have a shot at durant or green, im just giving you the situation in which it would have not been such a boneheaded decision to draft someone of that position. In other words, i dont want you to think that im trying to say, no matter who is available, you dont draft SF/PF because of need....of course if a durant is there, you do it. Im saying thornton obviously isnt in that league. As far as brandon wright goes, no one has a crystal ball, but analyzing only facts, yes, you would have to bet on wright being a better player. You look at his size, and then compare what he did at the age thornton was averaging 2 points for FSU, and of course you have to project that he will be better, which is why 95% of mock drafts had wright as top 3-5, while thornton was anywhere from 7-15. But like i said, no one can accurately predict something like this, so you just try to base it off of facts and different things, and hope youre right. For every chris paul, there is a shaun livingston. But for every dirk, there is a T****ishvili. It goes both ways.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> It took many years for Maggette to establish the reputation that he has in the L. I think that Thornton is already as good a scorer as Maggette as far as his perimeter shooting is concerned.


Yes, and look how much he has regressed of late (not saying its his fault), and youre still stuck with the fact that i doubt there is one person on this board that will say thornton deserves to take minutes away from maggette. Not even i say that, and everyone swears im a maggette hater. Its impossible to say that thorntons offense is on par with maggette. He hasnt shown equality in anything, in the limited time we have seen him at the NBA level, other than on defense. You also cant base someones offense only on one aspect of it. Thats like saying, well Tim thomas is a much better scorer than Peja stoyakavic on the inside. Thats meaningless, since peja is a near superstar when hes healthy, based on his overall game. Maggette is no shooter, but thornton has shown us zero to make us say hes a better nba perimeter shooter than maggete. 



> I never said anything about losing Maggette for nothing. I said that it should not be immediately unless it were a situation that we couldn't pass up.


But thats what im saying...the only deal that would make sense at this point (assuming we DO get francis) is if we trade him for cap space or draft picks. Either that or perhaps part of a deal with portland to get like przbilla and jack or something, but then no francis. If we trade him for matching salary, that actually is worse for us since at least maggette has an expiring deal. If were trading him for matching salary it better fill a big need for us. 



> Cutting to the point, all the guys that you named were off the board when we picked, which goes back to I guess your back-up plan...Nick Young. I still feel we will have to wait and see if he is really going to be an impact player at the 2. I don't think many people realize how difficult it is for a player of his size to play the 3. Ross did okay, but he's had his problems with bigger players. We don't have a single player on the roster other than Maggette that we know can play that position on a full time basis. I think the FO was just being proactive, something we all have been begging for, for years. I think they should be commended.


Young should have been the number 1 plan, not the backup plan. The backup plan should have been stuckey perhaps. Then fernandez, bellineli, crittenton, a number of players i think would have met our immediate and future needs more. The thing is, it doesnt matter what the players and up as. Doesnt matter if thornton miraculously becomes a superstar, or young becomes the next harold minor. The thing is, AT THE TIME, the clippers made the wrong decisision. If it works out for them in the future, that doesnt mean it was the logical choice at the time. Take Utah...williams is working out for them decently, but it still was the wrong decision not to take chris paul. Atlanta should have chosen one of those points, instead of sheldon williams and marvin williams. No matter if either turns out to be a star, AT THE TIME, it was the wrong decisision. 

What did you mean by at that size? You do realize that young and thornton are identical in height, right? Tim Thomas can do fine at SF. Ross was the starter most of the year at that position. We HAD singleton on draft day still. Mobley can be forced to play in a pinch, We were going to resign korolev. Thats 6 guys who can, and have played the position of SF. PF i doubt anyone will argue that brand and thomas are fine there. Ross was starting usually not to guard bigger players, but to guard the opposing teams PG when it was someone cassell couldnt handle, or to just guard the best player on the other team because of his lateral quickness. Ive said thornton is better than maggette IMO at lateral quickness on defense, but hes no where near ross level.

I dont see how you can view this move as proactive when we drafted a guy who played our deepest of 5 positions. Proactive to me means a guy who should compete for a starting position right away..a guy that plays the style the coach wants. A guy who would at worst be the first backup at that position.


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

qross1fan said:


> Yes he is, and he is painfully boring. I was bored out of my mind with his raspy voice, only reason I had the volume up was to hear some good ol Clipper Darrel chants, which I did.
> 
> Thornton is *SICK*


i wonder where Clipper Darrel lives cuz he passes by my house atleast once a week hmmm i wonder if he lives in Compton (i live to a city next to compton and i doubt he lives in my city)


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## TakingitbyStorm (Jul 1, 2007)

> _Yes, and look how much he has regressed of late (not saying its his fault), and youre still stuck with the fact that i doubt there is one person on this board that will say thornton deserves to take minutes away from maggette. Not even i say that, and everyone swears im a maggette hater. Its impossible to say that thorntons offense is on par with maggette. He hasnt shown equality in anything, in the limited time we have seen him at the NBA level, other than on defense. You also cant base someones offense only on one aspect of it. Thats like saying, well Tim thomas is a much better scorer than Peja stoyakavic on the inside._


I think you need to go back and re-read what you just said. You claimed that Thornton's defense looked to be better than Maggette's at this point to YOU...yet in the same breath you claim that WE can't claim that Thornton has a better perimeter shooting arsenal than Maggette. I never said that he would be more efficient, I never said that he would be equal to him on offense, I never said that he would be taking minutes from Maggette, I merely said that he has shown the ability to score from the perimeter at least as good as Maggette. If we need to take it a step further then let's. Maggette has a slow release on his shot, his feet need to be set, and he doesn't utilize his athletism when shooting. That's another point, Maggette is very athletic also, but he has to gather himself to use it. I think it comes from his triple jump training but anywho it obvious. Thornton is just the opposite, quick off his feet, but able to elevate superiorly over most defenders. It takes a lot more awareness and depth perception when you are shooting from you highest vantage point and most of the time you are guarded. 
This is my assesment of Thornton's perimeter game vs. Maggette's and I come to that conclusion from playing, watching basketball, and my knowledge of body mechanics. I would hope that if you feel that you can come to an educated conclusion about Thornton's defensive capabilities before he steps on an NBA court then I can make an assesment also...and I never said he was flat out a better shooter.






> _But thats what im saying...the only deal that would make sense at this point (assuming we DO get francis) is if we trade him for cap space or draft picks. Either that or perhaps part of a deal with portland to get like przbilla and jack or something, but then no francis. If we trade him for matching salary, that actually is worse for us since at least maggette has an expiring deal. If were trading him for matching salary it better fill a big need for us._


I don't know why we are still discussing this. You do realize that this decision is not ultimately up to the Clippers. There will be plenty of deals come trade deadline time like there are every season, but I would actually like to get Jack and Pryz because I feel the chemistry would be better. I am just behind the Francis thing because it's a bold move, and vets carry more clout in this league.





> _Young should have been the number 1 plan, not the backup plan. The backup plan should have been stuckey perhaps. Then fernandez, bellineli, crittenton, a number of players i think would have met our immediate and future needs more_.


Againg this is your feeling, which should be realize by now is not the feeling of the whole and not even the majority. So it sound to me that you are saying that you have some kind of superior knowledge than anyone else including people who get paid to do this, and I'm not just talking about the Clippers. Add in the fact that you have admitted to being a homer of Young, and the fact that the other players you mention have not been so spectacular to this point that anyone could say that we made the wrong decision...I would call this conjecture. 



> _The thing is, it doesnt matter what the players and up as. Doesnt matter if thornton miraculously becomes a superstar, or young becomes the next harold minor. The thing is, AT THE TIME, the clippers made the wrong decisision. If it works out for them in the future, that doesnt mean it was the logical choice at the time. Take Utah...williams is working out for them decently, but it still was the wrong decision not to take chris paul. Atlanta should have chosen one of those points, instead of sheldon williams and marvin williams. No matter if either turns out to be a star, AT THE TIME, it was the wrong decisision_.


Wrong to whom? We are not rebuilding. You have yet to recognize that vets win championships. None of those guys were going to put us over the top, THE WHOLE REASONING BEHIND DRAFTING THE MOST NBA READY PLAYER IN THE DRAFT.



> _What did you mean by at that size? You do realize that young and thornton are identical in height, right? Tim Thomas can do fine at SF_.


Size, yes, I never said height. Size includes at least both common factors. Ross is light in the ***, and has trouble keeping SF off the block. Ross is able to play this position mainly because of our frontline shotblockers, yet it's hardly perferable. 



> _We HAD singleton on draft day still. Mobley can be forced to play in a pinch, We were going to resign korolev. Thats 6 guys who can, and have played the position of SF.[/_QUOTE]
> 
> I addressed this in the previous post when I stated "full time". I shouldn't have to break down each one of their flaws at this point because it has already been shown that the consensus is that this was the desired, and correct pick.
> 
> ...


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