# If its another ACL injury. How do we blow this up?



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I'm not as concerned as 2 seasons ago, since he did not collapse in pain after his knee gave out, but still, non contact knee injuries is a very scary thing. 

With that being said, *IF* Rose suffered another devastating injury, what are some moves that should be made in order to rebuild as quickly as possible?


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Via Nick Friedell twitter


> Rose walks out of trainer's room in crutches


Ugh, this could be bad.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Mentioned in the other thread, but you blow up a lot of pieces. I say keep Noah and Butler. Trade Deng, make getting a 1st rounder in return as well as no bad salaries a priority. Also trade Boozer who is really having a good year. Make sure the incoming salaries are not longer than him and get a 1st in return. Start Teague and Snell. We should be guaranteed a top 10 pick that way. If we get the Bobcats pick that's just a bonus.

I'm hopeful though. Rose knows how it is to tear your ACL. Chances are he would have known if he tore the other knee and would probably have just given up and lied on the floor rather than limp it off to the bench.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Trade Deng. Trade Boozer if you can. Would like to keep Butler, but not at all costs.


----------



## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Trade Deng. Trade Boozer if you can. Would like to keep Butler, but not at all costs.


Agree with this. Also trade Hinrich and Dunleavy before Thibodeau breaks them due to overuse.

I'd like to keep a core of Noah, Gibson, Butler and Rose going into 2014-15.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

transplant said:


> Agree with this. Also trade Hinrich and Dunleavy before Thibodeau breaks them due to overuse.
> 
> I'd like to keep a core of Noah, Gibson, Butler and Rose going into 2014-15.


This. Start Teague and Snell too. Best case scenario, one of them is now good enough to contribute next season, while we got a top 5 pick in the process.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

If this is another serious knee injury I think keeping Noah honestly makes no sense. If its another ACL, Rose has shown us that he will take his time. We could be talking about him losing not only this season, but probably even next season. No point in holding on to a player like Noah. For what we are paying him and the fact that hes just a complementary player, I just don't see the point in keeping him on a re-building team. 

If Orlando would be open to trading Vucevic I would look into a package of Deng and Noah for Vucevic, Nelson and Hedo's expiring. I highly doubt Orlando would do this, but their owner wants to win games and while its a stretch, I think this trade gets Orlando into the playoffs. They have enough young talent to improve going forward and could opt to keep Deng as their veteran leader. The Bulls in return would get a young and offensively competent big man to pair with stretch 4 Mirotic if he comes over next season.


----------



## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Too depressed to type anythi...


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

thebizkit69u said:


> If this is another serious knee injury I think keeping Noah honestly makes no sense. If its another ACL, Rose has shown us that he will take his time. We could be talking about him losing not only this season, but probably even next season. No point in holding on to a player like Noah. For what we are paying him and the fact that hes just a complementary player, I just don't see the point in keeping him on a re-building team.
> 
> If Orlando would be open to trading Vucevic I would look into a package of Deng and Noah for Vucevic, Nelson and Hedo's expiring. I highly doubt Orlando would do this, but their owner wants to win games and while its a stretch, I think this trade gets Orlando into the playoffs. They have enough young talent to improve going forward and could opt to keep Deng as their veteran leader. The Bulls in return would get a young and offensively competent big man to pair with stretch 4 Mirotic if he comes over next season.


Orlando is trying to tank for one more year, they won't try to win now.

Noah anchors the defense and at the rate current big men are going for, his contract is completely reasonable. 

I think Rose would be back next season, without taking too much time.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

> @WojYahooNBA: Chicago star Derrick Rose is still a couple of hours away from getting the MRI on his right knee in Los Angeles.


...


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Basel said:


> ...



And so we wait.


----------



## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> If this is another serious knee injury I think keeping Noah honestly makes no sense. If its another ACL, Rose has shown us that he will take his time. We could be talking about him losing not only this season, but probably even next season. No point in holding on to a player like Noah. For what we are paying him and the fact that hes just a complementary player, I just don't see the point in keeping him on a re-building team.
> 
> If Orlando would be open to trading Vucevic I would look into a package of Deng and Noah for Vucevic, Nelson and Hedo's expiring. I highly doubt Orlando would do this, but their owner wants to win games and while its a stretch, I think this trade gets Orlando into the playoffs. They have enough young talent to improve going forward and could opt to keep Deng as their veteran leader. The Bulls in return would get a young and offensively competent big man to pair with stretch 4 Mirotic if he comes over next season.


IMO, Noah's a different case than Boozer, Deng, Dunleavy and Hinrich. These latter 4 are assets you should be looking to trade...best offer gets them. Noah, and all of the rest of the team's assets for that matter, should be available, but only for the right kind of value in return. Put another way, by season's end, Boozer, Deng, Dunleavy and Hinrich should all be gone. The rest of the players may or may not still be Bulls.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

transplant said:


> IMO, Noah's a different case than Boozer, Deng, Dunleavy and Hinrich. These latter 4 are assets you should be looking to trade...best offer gets them. Noah, and all of the rest of the team's assets for that matter, should be available, but only for the right kind of value in return. Put another way, by season's end, Boozer, Deng, Dunleavy and Hinrich should all be gone. The rest of the players may or may not still be Bulls.


Agreed.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Another thing about Noah, is that I don't think his presence on the team will effect our record anyways. If we well blow it up and tank, Noah isn't going to win us any games on his own, so I can live with keeping him on the roster.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

thebizkit69u said:


> Another thing about Noah, is that I don't think his presence on the team will effect our record anyways. If we well blow it up and tank, Noah isn't going to win us any games on his own, so I can live with keeping him on the roster.


Exactly. I think Noah is important to have when the building blocks are in place. Unlike traditional rebuilding methods, we'd have the pieces as early as next season. Mirotic comes over, we'll have a lottery pick(hopefully closer to top 5 than in the 10-14 range), we may have Charlotte's draft pick, and Rose would come back.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

There's hope... From that Coach Nick guy on YouTube

BBALLBREAKDOWN ‏@bballSource 1m
Word on the street in the NBA trainer circles here in LA is that Derrick Rose most likely has a knee contusion.


----------



## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

That's awesome. I really hope it's nothing serious 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Another thing about Noah, is that I don't think his presence on the team will effect our record anyways. If we well blow it up and tank, Noah isn't going to win us any games on his own, so I can live with keeping him on the roster.


Noah may not concern you, but you may want to consider your alternatives with regard to Thibodeau. Just between us, if Thibodeau is still breathing, he's a threat to what you seem to have in mind.


----------



## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

mvP to the Wee said:


> There's hope... From that Coach Nick guy on YouTube
> 
> BBALLBREAKDOWN ‏@bballSource 1m
> Word on the street in the NBA trainer circles here in LA is that Derrick Rose most likely has a knee contusion.


I thought i rwad it was a non contact injury. How do you get a contusiôn when nothing hits your knee? (I havent actually seen the footage so i dont know what really happened)


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

From KC Johnson

Rose has torn his meniscus. Unknown if he will miss the season, surgery is required.

I thought Westbrook needed 6-8 weeks?


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Yeah its a torn meniscus. 

I'm going out on a limb here and say hes taking off the whole season. Its not as serious as an ACL but if last year is any indication of how team Rose is going to tackle injuries, I don't expect Rose to be back this season. 

Now there is still a possibility that he comes back in the second half of the season or even the playoffs. So this could really effect if we blow this up or not. Tough choice.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Sorry guys, that's rough news. 

Feel sorry for the fans. You guys must be ready to pull your hair out.


----------



## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

Yeah, the torn meniscus diagnosis is better than it might have been, but may make things less clear for Bulls management. Rose could be healthy enough to lead the team in the 2014 playoffs...or not.

Unlike last season's Bulls, this team is not designed to be successful without a fully-functioning Derrick Rose. What this means is that even if Rose may be ready to play come playoff time, what's left of this team may not be good enough to make the playoffs.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

It could be 4-6 months if they cannot repair the meniscus. We'll find out more post surgery.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

transplant said:


> Yeah, the torn meniscus diagnosis is better than it might have been, but may make things less clear for Bulls management. Rose could be healthy enough to lead the team in the 2014 playoffs...or not.
> 
> Unlike last season's Bulls, this team is not designed to be successful without a fully-functioning Derrick Rose. What this means is that even if Rose may be ready to play come playoff time, what's left of this team may not be good enough to make the playoffs.


You can't take any chances. Garpax needs to KNOW for sure how Team Rose is going to play this injury. They can't continue the season struggling with this team as is with the hope that Rose comes back late in the season for a playoff push, they need to make the executive decision for whats best for this team in the long run. 

Maybe even take this out of Rose's hands and say hes shut down for the remainder of the season.


----------



## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Still feel bad for everyone involved, including Bulls fans, but hey, at least it's just a meniscus issue. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Firefight (Jul 2, 2010)

I've never bought into the term "injury prone", especially when it's different injuries, but Damn. This sucks. 

And I had hopes of posting a big "I told you so" to RStar on the Indiana board after the Bulls won the division. (although I will admit, Indiana looks better than I expected, so not sure Rose would of mattered).

Here's to hoping the team stays afloat while Rose is out, and he comes back this year to make a run of it... But I'm not banking on anything anymore.

Where's Mirotic?


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Firefight said:


> I've never bought into the term "injury prone", especially when it's different injuries, but Damn. This sucks.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


This x10000000

Why is Boozer not getting injured anymore? Because the bad luck left him. When it is a reoccurring problem such as the same knee or shoulder, then it's injury prone IMO; however when you keep on getting different kinds of injuries all unrelated one to another, well that's just really bad luck.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

My take on this:

1) Positives first -- this is not going to make or break Rose returning to a superstar level at some point. I'd be far more worried if it was the same knee as last year, but it's the other knee and a less severe injury. He rehabbed the ACL repaired knee great, so no reason to think he won't get this other knee back to 100% or better.

2) Neutral thoughts second -- wondering if this is related to a subtle overcompensation (right knee absorbing more impact than his left knee), or his body still adjusting to itself. I read somewhere the hamstring injury the other week might've been a similar thing where his quads were stronger than they needed to be, and caused the hamstring to absorb that extra power when pushing off. Speaking of the hamstring...wonder if that played a role in this? If it was still sore and he was favoring it, that may have been putting extra pressure on that right side of his body. Then again I'm not a doctor (but did stay at Holiday Inn Express last night).

3) Negatives last -- frankly I think this season is now down the tubes. Rose very much needed a good 3-4 [healthy] months to work his way back to form (18 months off will do that to a person). But now instead of working his way back, there's another long layoff to deal with and the rust is just going to build back up again. Say he comes back in February or March, I still don't think there's any chance he returns to MVP level Derrick Rose by the playoffs. More likely he's the "barely starting caliber PG" material that we've seen in 10 games thus far. And really TBH, I expect Rose will take the conservative surgery (repairing the meniscus) and take the full 6-month window to recover, thus missing the season. 

4) Summing it up -- while I do think Rose will return strong at some point, and this doesn't take away his superstar potential necessarily, my larger concern is when will this spiral end? This is THREE SEASONS lost in a row due to his non-stop injuries. When he returns, what's to stop him from getting another tear? This was in many ways the crux of my argument last year when I thought he needed to return when medically cleared. These things can happen no matter how much time you take off. Rose took 18 months to rehab an ACL when most athletes take only 9-10 months, and yet here we are with another big injury after only 10 regular season games. Now the clock resets again with nothing to show for all that extra time off, except for the fact that Rose's prime years are slipping away from him.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

As for blowing the team up...

I think the Bulls need to let the dust settle on this first, and that will take a few months. Fortunately there is plenty of time before the trade deadline.

That said, I don't think we're getting anything worthwhile for Deng or Boozer in trades. So I'm hard pressed to see the point in that. Trades would require we take back equal salary, so likely we end up with worse players making similar money, with at best a 2nd rounder thrown into the mix. Might as well just let them expire and try to do something with cap space.

It pains me to say this, but they may need to dangle Noah, Taj, and Dunleavy. All 3 of those guys can net legitimate value (all on reasonable contracts, productive, and non-expiring yet not long-term deals). I'm concerned about all 3 slipping over the next few years.

If we need to get under the tax (I'd be in favor of that if Rose does sit the season, given the repeater tax will limit flexibiliyt), may want to consider amnestying Boozer later in the season. 

The interesting piece in all this is, what will happen with Tom Thibodeau? Thibs is arguably our most important asset after Rose. Yet you can bet the farm he won't be happy if we're trading away his favorite players. Might be enough to where he quits and takes a gig somewhere else. Is that worth it?


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

1) I'm relieved it isn't an ACL tear. He can recover from this meniscus tear. Hopefully it needs a minor procedure, otherwise he should avoid getting it removed and take the 4-6 month route or 3-4 months however long it takes. 

2) If it's 6-8 weeks, he'll be back and we can still make a playoff run, where there's enough time for him to regain his old form before the playoffs start. Seeding is irrelevant.

3) If he's out several months, I guess I can say I'm somewhat excited for a rebuild. Deng will be the first one out. Take a draft pick for him and expirings, or a young asset. Boozer should go too. See if you can get a contender to drop a solid young player or draft pick along with contracts that don't go past the amount of years he has.

4) Establish your core. Keep Noah, centers like him are valuable(anchors Thibs' defense) and his contract looks really good compared to what they're being paid these days. I'd also keep Gibson around. For a 3rd big his contract is fair value. Butler is a keeper as well. One thing I'd really look into would be moving Rose permanently to SG. He no longer needs to worry about getting everybody involved, as well as getting the right amount of scoring. I thought he was getting the perfect balance early in 2012, but that's some time ago. Have him strictly focus on scoring. A bigger PG capable of guarding SG's would be beneficial. Michael Carter Williams would be perfect but he's obviously not going anywhere. Being able to draft Dante Exum would be awesome, but it'd be hard for us to expect a top 4 pick. Maybe Marcus Smart, though I'm not sure he'll be able to guard 2s. Anyways the way I see it:

PG-?
SG-Rose
SF-Butler
PF-Mirotic
C-Noah
Bench-Gibson, Dunleavy?, Snell, Teague?

We would have maybe 2 first rounders to help complete this team, so maybe a PG and a 6th man kind of guy, as well as the assets we get from a Boozer and/or Deng deal.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

If GarPax decide to do an accelerated rebuild, I would be OK with it at this point, but it would not be a pretty execution no matter how you slice it.

I'd be very concerned about what Thibs decides to do in response to that decision. IMO, that would be the breaking point between him and the front office, and he'd opt to bolt. And if Thibs goes, that increases the odds Rose will leave at his next FA unless we hit it out of the park with the rebuild and bring in a coach he loves. 

So how much do you all value Thibs?

Also worth considering, it might be worth keeping 1-2 of our vets around which can help greatly with youth development. That could be any of Deng, Taj, Noah, Booz, Hinrich, or Dunleavy. 

Maybe the Bulls make a public announcement of, hey everyone is on the trading block, make us your best offer, and see what they come up with.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

there is no blowup as long the bulls keep rose ....but the logical thing would be to keep noah too....everyone else is rather easily replaced.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> there is no blowup as long the bulls keep rose ....but the logical thing would be to keep noah too....everyone else is rather easily replaced.


Wait, if everyone else is easily replaced and lets just say the Bulls do that. Isn't that a blowup?


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Wait, if everyone else is easily replaced and lets just say the Bulls do that. Isn't that a blowup?


a reshuffling.

at the end of it all if you keep thibs, noah and rose the team's identity stays the same.

they wont pay deng what he wants to stay 
boozer is rumored to be an amnesty casualty 
butler due to his low salary will likely be dealt for a pick

its just doing what needs to be done sooner than later 

i am trying to think of a guard who has been this snake bit and stayed dominant...almost all great guards who had long careers avoided having more than 1 serious injury in their prime.

but if the bulls are going to really build around rose and apparently mirotic, they are going to have to build a team that relies on him less....possibly a PnR offense like in houston.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Da Grinch said:


> there is no blowup as long the bulls keep rose ....but the logical thing would be to keep noah too....everyone else is rather easily replaced.


Try telling Tom Thibodeau that Luol Deng is easily replaced.

I think Butler will be an adequate replacement personally, and for probably half the price, which is why I'm OK letting Deng go in FA. And most Bulls fans say he is easily replaced. But Thibs is such a big fan of the guy. Just more reason for him to leave at the earliest possible opportunity if we lose Deng. And then there is this big ripple effect b/c we all know Derrick Rose thinks the world of Thibs.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

yodurk said:


> Try telling Tom Thibodeau that Luol Deng is easily replaced.


I think its safe to say that this Rose injury and depending on which route hes taking in terms of whether he chooses to repair or remove the meniscus, could be the beginning of the end of this era of Bulls basketball. 

I think Thibs would be a great re-building coach, if we can bring in young players via the draft and trades. I think Thibs can do wonders with willing players. The question I have is Thibs willing to coach a rebuilding team? Obviously with Deng, Rose and Noah on the court Thibs chooses to go with his vets over rookies 90% of the time, but if we take away those options, maybe he will be more wiling to coach these guys.

Listen, I completely understand fans wanting to keep this team as is right now and hope for mid seed in the playoffs, but in order for that to happen, Thibs will have to play Noah, Boozer, Deng and Buttler HUGE minutes to stay competitive in games... is this really the best course of action for this franchise? 

I think its in the best interest to change the makeup of this team for the betterment of this franchise going forward. Maybe trading Deng to Houston for Asik a draft pick and Donatas Montejunas is the right kind of move to make. Sure it hurts us short term, but it adds depth to a depleted team for next season. 

Make some moves, get some draft picks and who knows what can happen next season. If losing in the short term equals Marcus Smart, Glenn Robinson III and Mirotic next season.... I kinda find it kinda hard to call it a bad scenario.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

thebizkit69u said:


> I think its safe to say that this Rose injury and depending on which route hes taking in terms of whether he chooses to repair or remove the meniscus, could be the beginning of the end of this era of Bulls basketball.
> 
> I think Thibs would be a great re-building coach, if we can bring in young players via the draft and trades. I think Thibs can do wonders with willing players. The question I have is Thibs willing to coach a rebuilding team? Obviously with Deng, Rose and Noah on the court Thibs chooses to go with his vets over rookies 90% of the time, but if we take away those options, maybe he will be more wiling to coach these guys.
> 
> ...


Thibs has a contract to fulfill and he's not going to quit. If Rose just needs minor arthroscopic procedure, keep this team in tact, otherwise, call it the end of this era. We were already getting rid of Deng and/or Boozer this off-season. Speed up the process and see if you can get any pieces for them since a championship run wouldn't happen if he's out 3-6 months.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

mvP to the Wee said:


> Thibs has a contract to fulfill and he's not going to quit. If Rose just needs minor arthroscopic procedure, keep this team in tact, otherwise, call it the end of this era. We were already getting rid of Deng and/or Boozer this off-season. Speed up the process and see if you can get any pieces for them since a championship run wouldn't happen if he's out 3-6 months.


I'm fairly certain Rose is taking the 3-6 month route, nothing about the way his handlers have handled injuries tells me that hes taking the quick route.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

thebizkit69u said:


> I'm fairly certain Rose is taking the 3-6 month route, nothing about the way his handlers have handled injuries tells me that hes taking the quick route.


From what I understand there are 3 different options.

1) It just needs a minor arthroscopic procedure because the tear is minimal. 6-8 weeks.

2) They remove the ligament. 6-8 weeks, but could have long term knee concerns.

3) They re-attach the ligament. 3-6 months out but won't cause concerns long term.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

mvP to the Wee said:


> From what I understand there are 3 different options.
> 
> 1) It just needs a minor arthroscopic procedure because the tear is minimal. 6-8 weeks.
> 
> ...


Yeah, its crazy how some of these time-frames vary so dramatically. 



> Clippers All-Star forward Blake Griffin suffered a medial meniscus tear in July 2012 that kept him out of the London Olympics, but he was ready for training camp in October 2012 and he reported feeling “100 percent” less than two months after the surgery. In April, then-Lakers forward Metta World Peace returned just 12 days after meniscus surgery. And, in a decision that has been second-guessed repeatedly, former Blazers All-Star guard Brandon Roy played in a 2010 postseason game just eight days after meniscus surgery.


I'm still fairly ceartain hes done for the season. Why would Reggie and BJ allow Rose to come back when he has another excuse to sit out another year.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Kinda moving forward with the topic in hand, here is a trade I think could be useful. 

Carlos Boozer to Charlotte for Bismack Biyambo and Ben Gordon. I think the Bobcats do it because they are surprisingly in the middle of the horrendous Eastern Conference and could make a playoff push for a franchise that is starving for some sort of success. I think Charlotte is good enough to be out of the top 10 picks, so maybe they will be willing to take a shot at improving via winning. 

Why I see the Bulls doing it, it saves them an amnesty option. They can let Ben Gordon walk away for nothing next season and hold on to the amnesty just in case the worst scenario happens and Rose just flat out gets injured again. If Rose gets injured again, I find it very hard justifying paying Rose this much money to basically never play. Biyombo also gives them a big body and defensive big to backup Noah.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

thebizkit69u said:


> Kinda moving forward with the topic in hand, here is a trade I think could be useful.
> 
> Carlos Boozer to Charlotte for Bismack Biyambo and Ben Gordon. I think the Bobcats do it because they are surprisingly in the middle of the horrendous Eastern Conference and could make a playoff push for a franchise that is starving for some sort of success. I think Charlotte is good enough to be out of the top 10 picks, so maybe they will be willing to take a shot at improving via winning.
> 
> Why I see the Bulls doing it, it saves them an amnesty option. They can let Ben Gordon walk away for nothing next season and hold on to the amnesty just in case the worst scenario happens and Rose just flat out gets injured again. If Rose gets injured again, I find it very hard justifying paying Rose this much money to basically never play. Biyombo also gives them a big body and defensive big to backup Noah.


Rose isn't amnesty eligible. He signed his contract after the lockout agreement.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Try telling Tom Thibodeau that Luol Deng is easily replaced.
> 
> I think Butler will be an adequate replacement personally, and for probably half the price, which is why I'm OK letting Deng go in FA. And most Bulls fans say he is easily replaced. But Thibs is such a big fan of the guy. Just more reason for him to leave at the earliest possible opportunity if we lose Deng. And then there is this big ripple effect b/c we all know Derrick Rose thinks the world of Thibs.


deng is a good player and yes even a good person but he isn't worth quitting a 7 figure gig you have spent the last 20 years trying to reach .

thibs is devoted to his guys , but he's not crazy. if he quits it wont be over deng.

my thing is this if deng is so good why not get something good for him....the bulls are supposedly a good front office ( i personally find them average) could you name a good front office that would allow a 28 yr. old 2 time all star to walk away for nothing and in all likelihood knew this was coming for some time..

the same thing for boozer , if you know you dont want him , but he is playing well and has value why is there even talk of amnestying him , 

my impression of good front offices are the ones who are proactive , able to assess and then make what needs to happen ....happen .


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> deng is a good player and yes even a good person but he isn't worth quitting a 7 figure gig you have spent the last 20 years trying to reach .
> 
> thibs is devoted to his guys , but he's not crazy. if he quits it wont be over deng.
> 
> ...


Agreed, which is why I can see fringe teams like the Cavs and bobcats willing to show interest at deng and boozer.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

thebizkit69u said:


> Agreed, which is why I can see fringe teams like the Cavs and bobcats willing to show interest at deng and boozer.


Boozer is never going back to Cleveland so there's that.

Maybe Waiters+salary filler(Bynum?)+top 5 protected 1st for Deng?


----------



## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

thebizkit69u said:


> I'm fairly certain Rose is taking the *3-6 month *route, nothing about the way his handlers have handled injuries tells me that hes taking the quick route.


We also know that it will be longer than that from the way he's handled injuries in the past


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

LeGoat06 said:


> We also know that it will be longer than that from the way he's handled injuries in the past


He always rushed back from injuries, which people says led to him overcompensating leading to an ACL tear. He only takes his time with possibly the most serious injury in basketball. I expect him back within the timeframe. Probably somewhere right in the middle.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

mvP to the Wee said:


> Boozer is never going back to Cleveland so there's that.
> 
> Maybe Waiters+salary filler(Bynum?)+top 5 protected 1st for Deng?


That's a ton for deng imo., but if it's even remotely possible, that's a deal I jump on right away. Boozer has no say in where he goes but if you are saying that Cleveland will not trade for him because he bolted for Utah, well it's been a while since that happened.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

thebizkit69u said:


> That's a ton for deng imo., but if it's even remotely possible, that's a deal I jump on right away. Boozer has no say in where he goes but if you are saying that Cleveland will not trade for him because he bolted for Utah, well it's been a while since that happened.


Take out Waiters if needed. I guess it depends if Bynum stays a bum, if he does I could definitely see them do Bynum+top 5 protected 1st for Deng.

PG-Irving
SG-Waiters
SF-Deng
PF-Thompson
C-Varejao

Bench-Bennett, Jack, Gee, Clark, Miles.

They also have no use for Boozer.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I've heard that Cleveland is not very happy with Waiters these days. And I could definitely see them being interested in Deng; just the type of player they need. If he agrees to an extension beforehand I could possibly see a Waiters + filler for Deng trade. But not really convinced our front office thinks highly of Waiters.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Via the Tribune.



> Thibodeau said how long Rose is out won't be determined until Cole performs the surgery. But two sources close to the process indicated Rose and other decision-makers want his meniscus reattached.


As I predicted it sounds like team rose is taking the 6 month meniscus re-attachment route.

The season is over.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

At this point you can't really blame him if the other choices could shorten his career. Better safe than sorry. 

Now if he's cleared to play again in the playoffs and refuses to play for his team, that's different. But if he just wants the best surgery to hopefully come back 100%? Can't fault him there.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

He's still really young. It only makes sense for him to undergo the best long-term surgery, even if it means a longer recovery window. If we're talking Shane Battier gearing up for one last playoff run? Different story.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Bulls announce Rose out for season.


----------



## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

@mvP to the Wee Really sucks I was looking forward to the 3 team race in the East


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Damn, it really sucks we're missing out on Rose's prime years in the NBA.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

It is now time to engage in Operation Blow It Up.

I would like to see Deng, Boozer, Kirk, and Dunleavy dealt if at all possible.


----------



## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

jnrjr79 said:


> It is now time to engage in Operation Blow It Up.
> 
> I would like to see Deng, Boozer, Kirk, and Dunleavy dealt if at all possible.


Any possibility they make as much cap space as possible, tank, get a top pick plus possibly go after LeBron or Melo in the offseason


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Not only is this season lost, but you better believe that bulls confidence in derrick as a franchise player who will lead us to a title is significantly going to be questioned.

Not only do we have to blow this team up now, we have to start making plans on how to bring in another superstar incase rose is a shell of himself.

This means everyone is available, Noah, Taj and butler can't be considered untouchables anymore. If it means we lose Thibs along the way, so be it. The spurs lost David Robinson for a season, blew it up and came out with Duncan and popovich.


----------



## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

I'd love to keep Thibodeau, but I agree that everyone else is expendable at this point. It is sad, but true... you've got some assets (though nobody can seem to agree on their value)... I'd be inclined to shake things up to try to create a new core that isn't Rose-dependent. 

Bleh.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

LeGoat06 said:


> Any possibility they make as much cap space as possible, tank, get a top pick plus possibly go after LeBron or Melo in the offseason



I believe there is a _chance_, but something tells me they've learned a lesson from the last time they tried that. If they could get enough picks in return for their current players, though, it's worth considering.


----------



## Firefight (Jul 2, 2010)

Move Deng, Boozer, Dunleavy... I wouldn't move Butler or Noah, only because we would instantly be looking to replace them.

Next year have Rose/Butler/Mirotic/Noah and whatever we get from trades, FA, or draft

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Firefight said:


> Move Deng, Boozer, Dunleavy... I wouldn't move Butler or Noah, only because we would instantly be looking to replace them.
> 
> Next year have Rose/Butler/Mirotic/Noah and whatever we get from trades, FA, or draft
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


The issue I have with the don't trade Noah and butler approach is that you need to start finding Noah's full time backup/replacement sooner than later and this year's draft has a bunch of players that can easily be better than buttler.

I'm still not sold on the idea that butler is a legit starter, but I'm also pretty excited to see what butler can do if he becomes the #1 option if we blow it up.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> The issue I have with the don't trade Noah and butler approach is that you need to start finding Noah's full time backup/replacement sooner than later and this year's draft has a bunch of players that can easily be better than buttler.
> 
> I'm still not sold on the idea that butler is a legit starter, but I'm also pretty excited to see what butler can do if he becomes the #1 option if we blow it up.



Re: Noah, he is only 28 years old or whatever. In the NBA, you normally don't do this sort of backup/grooming thing. The Bulls do not need to find his replacement "sooner than later." One presumes he can go another 6 seasons or thereabouts. A replacement should not be on the radar (other than taking a center because he is BPA).

In terms of drafting a backup, sure, that is definitely a position of need.

From a macro view, I think Noah and Butler are guys you want to keep, as opposed to the others discussed who you would actively shop. However, I agree with the "nobody is untouchable" attitude at this point in time. If a deal makes sense, it makes sense.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> Re: Noah, he is only 28 years old or whatever. In the NBA, you normally don't do this sort of backup/grooming thing. The Bulls do not need to find his replacement "sooner than later." One presumes he can go another 6 seasons or thereabouts. A replacement should not be on the radar (other than taking a center because he is BPA).


The point is Noah is a decent player on a contending team, this team as is, is not going to contend. Hes turning 29 in February and will be turning 30 when Rose returns next season and would be playing on a team that who knows what will look like. If Boozer is gone like most expect, who is going to give you scoring in the front court? Mirotic? For one we don't know for sure if hes coming over next season and second, its unfair to expect him to be the offensive punch in the front-court in his very first year in the league. 

Noah is not getting any better, hes injury prone and has conditioning problems. Also, hes not good enough to warrant a "Lets just let him play into his mid 30's" mentality. 



> From a macro view, I think Noah and Butler are guys you want to keep, as opposed to the others discussed who you would actively shop. However, I agree with the "nobody is untouchable" attitude.


This is my point, I'm not saying we HAVE to deal Noah and Butler, but I also think we dont HAVE to keep them either. If the right deal is presented, you gotta do whats best for the franchise. These guys aren't franchise players.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

From Jerry Reinsdorf



> “Despite Derrick’s absence, this is still a good team. I know from last year, this team and coaching staff will continue to make our fans proud.”


I hope this is just lip service to the fans and that he truly doesn't feel this way. I think keeping this team as is would do more harm than good. Also, any gm with half a brain knows that this team is better off tanking it.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Tony Snell potentially starting tonight so we may be pulling the tank out of the garage


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

mvP to the Wee said:


> Tony Snell potentially starting tonight so we may be pulling the tank out of the garage


Eh, if Teague starts that's the true sign of a tank in progress.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Its taking 40+ minutes from Deng and Boozer, a 13-2 FT advantage in the fourth and some horrible coaching by Tyrone Corbin, just to stay competitive against a team with 1 win.... Welcome to the Post Derrick Rose era of "We have enough to win."


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Great news, the tanking only gets easier from here


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Marcus Teague is sooo bad.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

thebizkit69u said:


> Marcus Teague is sooo bad.


I know it's great. Once Kirk gets his usual injuries, we'll hopefully get some looooooong losing streak going.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

mvP to the Wee said:


> I know it's great. Once Kirk gets his usual injuries, we'll hopefully get some looooooong losing streak going.


I was begging the Bulls to trade down a spot or two to get Perry Jones or Tony Wroten... Just sickening how shitty Teague has been. Heck the dude drafted first in the second round is light years more productive than Teague.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

thebizkit69u said:


> I was begging the Bulls to trade down a spot or two to get Perry Jones or Tony Wroten... Just sickening how shitty Teague has been. Heck the dude drafted first in the second round is light years more productive than Teague.


Apparently the Bulls never scouted him. They didn't like anybody who was available and had heard Teague was suppose to be drafted higher so they went for the risk.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

It's looking like the Bulls might not need to make any trades for a tank job, LOL. This is actually the best possible scenario under the circumstances b/c Thibs can't complain about the front office dumping all their vets. Blame it 100% on injuries.

Chances are that Hinrich won't stay healthy all year too, so yeah it's going to get ugly b/c Teague and James aren't going to get it done if they're running the offense for 48 minutes.

If ever there is a year for this to happen, I guess this is it given the strength of the draft.

Even so, it's sad to witness. The Bulls look defeated and you can't blame them after a 3rd straight year of this crap.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

yodurk said:


> It's looking like the Bulls might not need to make any trades for a tank job, LOL. This is actually the best possible scenario under the circumstances b/c Thibs can't complain about the front office dumping all their vets. Blame it 100% on injuries.
> 
> Chances are that Hinrich won't stay healthy all year too, so yeah it's going to get ugly b/c Teague and James aren't going to get it done if they're running the offense for 48 minutes.
> 
> ...


In terms of psyche, it must be a tremendous blow to the rest of the team to have Derrick go out again. They all put up with so much last year, especially given how the situation was handled in terms of keeping Derrick's potential return a possibility until the bitter end.

Anyway, it was great to see them lose to Utah last night, in a sick way. The Bulls' first inclination might not be to tank, but if you start losing to the Utahs of the world, maybe the FO's thinking will realign.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I just can't imagine the front office being ok with having to play Deng, Boozer and Noah nearly 40 minutes a game to stay competitive in a horrible eastern conference. 

Stop the madness, let's blow this shit up.


----------



## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

3 team trade

Bulls receive Heat first round pick/Rockets first round pick

Houston receives

Chris Bosh
Deng

Miami Receives
Omar Asik
Chandler Parsons


----------



## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

I put that together in about 10 seconds. Don't judge me


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

There are 2 guys that I think the bulls can seriously get from two contending teams. Harrison Barnes from golden state and Steven Adams from okc.

I think it takes Noah to get a decent package of Perry Jones, Adams and we gotta take back Perkins. But, I think this would be a great deal for both teams.

As for Harrison Barnes, I think they have to decide on who to re sign, klay Thompson or Barnes. I think a package built around butler and Taj can pull it off.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

LeGoat06 said:


> I put that together in about 10 seconds. Don't judge me



You might want to run it through trade checker first. The Bulls aren't receiving any salary there, so my rudimentary knowledge on the subject would indicate that this trade is not possible.


----------



## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

jnrjr79 said:


> You might want to run it through trade checker first. The Bulls aren't receiving any salary there, so my rudimentary knowledge on the subject would indicate that this trade is not possible.


You get a cigar. I believe the picks would be valued at 3 million each, but I am not sure if you can count that as salary for cap purposes. It seems like you could likely not do it. At any rate that trade is not going to be acceptable.


----------



## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

jnrjr79 said:


> You might want to run it through trade checker first. The Bulls aren't receiving any salary there, so my rudimentary knowledge on the subject would indicate that this trade is not possible.


Trade checker doesn't let you trade picks


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

For years I have been telling everyone on here about this front offices lack of vision and for years you guys have been defending these clowns. Now that most Bulls fans agree with the idea of blowing up the team, we get this little gem from Gar Foreman.



> "We're not going to make rash decisions. *We feel we have a bright future ahead* and we're positioned well. We have good players in their 20s, Derrick is going to come back, we're positioned well with draft picks into the future and we have some level of flexibility which we haven't had under this new CBA."
> 
> Forman said the experience the players gained from being without Rose last season and still taking the Miami Heat to five games in the second round of the playoffs gives the organization confidence that the "team culture," led by coach Tom Thibodeau, gives it a chance to be *competitive in the postseason again.*


Its just madness. Combine this with what Reinsdorf said, this freaking team is going to do nothing. They are fine with competing for an 8th seed in an AWFUL Eastern Conference and then will just let Deng walk away for nothing, after playing him 40 minutes a night. 

All the while the Bulls actively play themselves out of one of the greatest drafts in the history of the NBA.

Only the Bulls, Only the Bulls...Only the one and only indeed.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

thebizkit69u said:


> For years I have been telling everyone on here about this front offices lack of vision and for years you guys have been defending these clowns. Now that most Bulls fans agree with the idea of blowing up the team, we get this little gem from Gar Foreman.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't see why you would take this seriously, what do you want him to say? That he's going to blow it up? Additionally if he says that, he's diminishing the value of every player by letting teams know they're available. Play hardball and you'll get a little extra out of their trade offers.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

mvP to the Wee said:


> I don't see why you would take this seriously, what do you want him to say? That he's going to blow it up? Additionally if he says that, he's diminishing the value of every player by letting teams know they're available. Play hardball and you'll get a little extra out of their trade offers.


Agreed. There's nothing else the GM can say. If, after the season, no moves have been made, then there will be plenty of reason to be pissed off. For now, these comments are only window dressing.


----------



## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Keep thibs, Noah, and butler, everyone else is expendable. Tank this year, or at least get a solid pick, draft a wing that's offensively inclined, bring mirotic over, and pray Rose returns to MVP level. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

One thing I'd consider is keeping Boozer. Let's just say we don't get too lucky in the draft lottery and get maybe a 8-9 pick rather than top 5, the T-Wolves and Blazers may be inclined to accept Boozers expiring+ one of those picks if either Love or Aldridge is unhappy at the time. Hell, maybe we can work a Boozer+pick sign and trade for Carmelo Anthony.


----------



## Ronny (Jan 12, 2013)

jnrjr79 said:


> Trade Deng. Trade Boozer if you can. Would like to keep Butler, but not at all costs.


I would like to see Boozer parting ways with the Bulls .


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

mvP to the Wee said:


> I don't see why you would take this seriously, what do you want him to say? That he's going to blow it up? Additionally if he says that, he's diminishing the value of every player by letting teams know they're available. Play hardball and you'll get a little extra out of their trade offers.


Because not being aggressive is the what the bulls do. When Gar, Reinsdorf and thibs say that they can win, I really think they fully believe that. If they stay together there is no doubt they back into a low playoff seed, this conference is terrible. 

Hardball? I don't know about that, every team out there knows that the bulls must clean house, it's common sense. 

I really think these guys are buying what they are telling us. I really hope I'm wrong, and maybe losing more games will open up their eyes. But, it's scary and damaging if they think they can compete right now.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/6364019

bulls trade kirk mike dunleavy and mike james 2 2nd rounders for steve nash and a protected 1st rounder

for the lakers kirk is the prototypical caretaker pg need to play alongside a ball dominant 2 like kobe...and the know it they have tried to acquire him in the past.

for the bulls nash is considering retirement which will take him off the books...if he comes back rose is hurt the pg spot is open for him. and the 1st rounder.

luol deng sign and trade for eric gordon, they have evans and no decent sf and gordon doesn't want to be there and he is from chicago. a fit for both teams considering deng is a pending FA but is almost assuredly worth less money than gordon is getting

then trade boozer to the raptors for amir johnson , landry fields and a 2nd round pick.

if nash retires there is the possibility of dealing taj to a team with cap space to get out of the luxury tax


----------



## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

What about Evan Turner as an accessible trade target? You could take a shot at resigning him.. if he walks, he walks.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Dornado said:


> What about Evan Turner as an accessible trade target? You could take a shot at resigning him.. if he walks, he walks.


Philadelphia as is just might win the horrid Atlantic division lol. They can be players, so I doubt they will trade Turner for the sake of it. Plus, they owe their first round draft pick to Miami (top 14 protected) but they do have the pelicans top 5 protected pick. They have the option to either tank for 2 good picks or have their core win a division and lose a mid round pick to the heat. 

Philly can be bold if they want to. They can trade Nerlens Noel and Jason Richardson to us for Deng straight up. This makes the Sixers a top 4 seed imo and still keeping cap flexibility going forward.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Sam Smith is also on the stay pat we have enough to compete delusional way of thinking.

Looks like the organization from top to bottom is sticking to embracing mediocrity.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

thebizkit69u said:


> Sam Smith is also on the stay pat we have enough to compete delusional way of thinking.
> 
> Looks like the organization from top to bottom is sticking to embracing mediocrity.


We needed OT to score 83 points on the 1-14 Jazz. We may have just enough to successfully tank without a trade.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

mvP to the Wee said:


> We needed OT to score 83 points on the 1-14 Jazz. We may have just enough to successfully tank without a trade.


The east is sooooo bad though. I would feel way more comfortable if we traded a piece or two.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

thebizkit69u said:


> The east is sooooo bad though. I would feel way more comfortable if we traded a piece or two.


We're about to drop out of playoff contention and into a top 8 pick.


----------

