# andrew bogut



## rainman

after his performance against lsu this week supposedly some nba types think he could be the #1 pick in this years draft. i've seen him play twice this year and he is looking bigger and stronger than last year, he has always had a high skill level and now seems to need only to get stronger. if he can hold his own in the post on the defensive end i think he will be a top pick. it will all depend on who is picking where. teams like milwaukee,suns(pick from bulls), atlanta and new orleans have a desperate need for help in the middle.


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## BigMike

I think he should be a really, really high draft pick. He's slow, and not all that athletic...but he's INTENSE (a huuuuge thing for a big man these days) rebounds absolutely everything and once he catches the ball in the post, he scores. Period.


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## ChrisCrossover

There is no way he's going to be the number 1 overall selection. Just think of the kind of players he would have to leave behind him: Aleksandrov, Taft, perhaps Andriuskevicius. I just don't think that will happen, and Bogut surely isn't good enough, not even in this draft.

Don't get me wrong, I like the Aussie very much, and I'm impressed with the quality of his game, but with his mediocre speed and athleticism plus rather little upside (compared to the aforementioned players), even theoretically he's a #5 pick at best. I expect him to go no higher than # 8, and more than likely he won't make it past the low lottery positions. I expect him to be a good pro, though.


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## BigMike

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3302798

Read the blurb about Bogut in the gray...certain NBA guys think he's the #1 guy...


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## Geaux Tigers

I saw him play in Baton Rouge last year and he didnt overly impress me then but I still saw that he was very fundamentally sound. Hes having a great year this year and I think hes a top 10 pick if he comes out...


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## Nimreitz

> Originally posted by <b>BigMike</b>!
> I think he should be a really, really high draft pick. He's slow, and not all that athletic...but he's INTENSE (a huuuuge thing for a big man these days) rebounds absolutely everything and once he catches the ball in the post, he scores. Period.


Ok, but as a Bucks fan what I get from this is that Bogut is a less athletic, better scoring, probably worse defending, Gadzuric. Gadz is untouchable in terms of intensity too. So while I love Gadzuric, I don't think he'd ever go in the lottery even if he was as in shape comming out of college as he is now.

Why is Bogut a better prospect than Gadz if his best attribute is intensity? And if this sounds dumb forgive me, but I haven't seen him play.


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## Geaux Tigers

> Originally posted by <b>Nimreitz</b>!
> 
> 
> Ok, but as a Bucks fan what I get from this is that Bogut is a less athletic, better scoring, probably worse defending, Gadzuric. Gadz is untouchable in terms of intensity too. So while I love Gadzuric, I don't think he'd ever go in the lottery even if he was as in shape comming out of college as he is now.
> 
> Why is Bogut a better prospect than Gadz if his best attribute is intensity? And if this sounds dumb forgive me, but I haven't seen him play.


No this kid is no Gadzuric. He has more size and better fundamentals and a more all around game. He can even step out and shoot around 15 feet with some regularity. Gadz has more athleticizm but Bogut is very knowledgeable. Bogut also has enough handles to take his man off of the dribble within reason.


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## ChrisCrossover

> Originally posted by <b>BigMike</b>!
> http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3302798
> 
> Read the blurb about Bogut in the gray...certain NBA guys think he's the #1 guy...


I did, and with all due respect, I don't buy into that. He is no #1 pick, not even in such a weak draft. In case I'm wrong, I promise to add a humble sentence of some kind to my signature and keep it there till draft day in 2006.


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## rainman

> Originally posted by <b>ChrisCrossover</b>!
> There is no way he's going to be the number 1 overall selection. Just think of the kind of players he would have to leave behind him: Aleksandrov, Taft, perhaps Andriuskevicius. I just don't think that will happen, and Bogut surely isn't good enough, not even in this draft.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I like the Aussie very much, and I'm impressed with the quality of his game, but with his mediocre speed and athleticism plus rather little upside (compared to the aforementioned players), even theoretically he's a #5 pick at best. I expect him to go no higher than # 8, and more than likely he won't make it past the low lottery positions. I expect him to be a good pro, though.



you may be right but the 3 guys you mentioned have proven nothing yet, comparisons i've seen for all 3;alexandrov-rich mans keith van horn,taft-chris wilcox,martynas-zydrunas ilgauskus. we get so much hype with some of these guys that we start falling for it after awhile. bogut to me looks like a young vlade divac and his work around the glass reminds of tim duncan. lets keep in mind its billed as a weak draft so anyone from the top to the mid lottery could be on someone's radar. lets throw in chris paul,marvin williams and especially tiago splitter. all have been mentioned as potential #1's at one time or another. all i'm saying is bogut is in that mix.


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## BigMike

> I did, and with all due respect, I don't buy into that. He is no #1 pick, not even in such a weak draft. In case I'm wrong, I promise to add a humble sentence of some kind to my signature and keep it there till draft day in 2006.


:laugh: 

No need at all...personally, I disagree as well...and that says something, check the avatar...


...just thought I'd throw it out there though.


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## ChrisCrossover

> Originally posted by <b>rainman</b>!
> you may be right but the 3 guys you mentioned have proven nothing yet, comparisons i've seen for all 3;alexandrov-rich mans keith van horn,taft-chris wilcox,martynas-zydrunas ilgauskus. we get so much hype with some of these guys that we start falling for it after awhile. bogut to me looks like a young vlade divac and his work around the glass reminds of tim duncan. lets keep in mind its billed as a weak draft so anyone from the top to the mid lottery could be on someone's radar. lets throw in chris paul,marvin williams and especially tiago splitter. all have been mentioned as potential #1's at one time or another. all i'm saying is bogut is in that mix.


I respect your opion. At this point, this is a guessing game, so there is no "right" and "wrong" to it. All we can do is check each player's chances to make it to the top, and in all likelihood, I don't see Andrew Bogut going #1. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong, and seeing a proven veteran as the leading pick would be a good thing, but to me, it just doesn't fit the character of NBA drafts, where "upside" is pretty much everything. So I think, if either Taft or Andriuskevicius is in the draft, they will be chosen ahead of Bogut, unproven as they may be.


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## Nimreitz

Well, according to renound NBA insider, and part time Mountain West announcer on Big Monday, Jimmy *****, Bogut could go #1. I'll check out this game and edit the post with what I think of the kid.


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## JNice

Number one is really up for grabs for a lot of guys. Bogut would certainly seem a candidate.


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## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>Nimreitz</b>!
> Well, according to renound NBA insider, and part time Mountain West announcer on Big Monday, Jimmy *****, Bogut could go #1. I'll check out this game and edit the post with what I think of the kid.


Jimmy ***** tends to be a tad biased when it comes to the MWC. Just a tad. The last couple of years he kept campaigning for multiple teams from the MWC and every year all the teams lose in the first round.


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## ChrisCrossover

And what's your take on the "Bogut for #1" matter? I'm sure you have an opinion as well.


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## The Mad Viking

I predict that Bogut will go #1 on draft day.

He doesn't need to have super leaping ability or great quickness to go number one. He is a legit center, with all the skills needed to play PF as well.

What he brings:
A true post scorer in a 7-footer who loves to play inside.
Possibly as good a set of hands on a big man as there has EVER been. (Keep in mind he is still a kid.)
Excellent rebounder.
Good shot blocker.
Great ball thief for a big man. 
Sick awareness on the court, particularly on offense.
Passes like a European center - think Vlade or even Sabonis.
Great attitude!
Still young, played very well as a freshman, played very well internationally, and is now dominant as a sophomore.
Could score even more if the team was more efficient getting him the ball.
Could put up better numbers if his teammates were better.

Downsides:
Not a great leaper.
Needs to improve defence.

I just don't see anybody with an overall package like his, as young as he is. 

I would love to see him drop to the Raptors, but no way is that going to happen.


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## Tom

Bogut wasn't unathletic when i saw him. He is agressive. His shoulder are a bit narrow and hunched and that concerns me a bit.

If the refs don't label him as a foul guy in there meeting...he may have a chance to be a consistent 10 and 7 guy.

He will be better than luc longley


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## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>ChrisCrossover</b>!
> And what's your take on the "Bogut for #1" matter? I'm sure you have an opinion as well.


No.1 no, I don't think he'll be No.1. His lack of quickness will be a problem for some teams, even if he is a 5 (although they would be stupid, because a 5 man with basketball skills is something you should want). I think he goes in the top 7, and right now I say to Milwaukee (if things hold), because I expect the PG's (Jack, Paul, Felton, Williams), Martynas and Taft to go ahead of him.


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## ChrisCrossover

Deron Williams as a top-6 selection? Wouldn't he be a point guard version of Bogut? A rather slow and unathletic player with great basketball skills and smarts and the ability to play the next higher position?

Deron ending up anywhere near the top-10, not to mention top-6, would absolutely surprise me. Plus, your list would also mean that Aleksandrov would be the #8 selection at best. Just my two cents, not criticism intended.


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## HKF

NBA scouts know the score on Williams. They've seen him for 3 years run the USA under team's offense flawlessly. He will be a high pick.


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## rainman

mad viking had a pretty good rundown of bogut but i'm not quite as sold on him. lets frame this whole draft by all agreeing there is no lebron......... out there. like i've said i've seen 7 differant guys projected over the last several months as #1 picks. i think there may be one pg in that mix but i dont think you will see more than that. as for bogut, he seems to be getting better on top of getting bigger and stronger. is there such a thing as a point center? i think in the end its going to be a need draft so whoever goes #1 shouldnt shock anyone.


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## Greg Ostertag!

> Originally posted by <b>rainman</b>!
> i think in the end its going to be a need draft so whoever goes #1 shouldnt shock anyone.


I think this is true. The #1 pick will be determined by whichever team gets the pick...

Lots of teams need centers


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## Nimreitz

Alright, after last night's game I do have a few observations about Bogut.

He's a tremendous leader on the offensive end, he completely directs the offense, so he knows the strengths and weaknesses of everyone on the court. I don't think that's going to fly with someone like Steve Francis or Baron Davis (telling them where to go), but as long as he doesn't come in and assume he's the man, that can be an asset.

He passes very well, and he isn't selfish with the ball. When he's doubled he looks for the cutter comming in or the shooter outside and he usually makes a good pass.

He moves without the ball well and rebounds well both offensively and defensively. He's not tremendously athletic, so it's probably due to his footwork, position, and technique.

He shows great intensity on the offensive end and really gets amped up after a big score.

He has significant negatives though, and I think I'd agree with maybe a 7-12 pick for him.

First of all, his hands just did not seem as good as they've been billed. They were ok, but I wasn't impressed by any means.

He does not bring the same intensity to defense that he brings to offense, he gets shot over by much smaller players and hesitates to step out on shooters. His best attribute on the college level as a defender is that he is 7 feet tall and it's hard to shoot over him. While that does translate to the NBA a little too, I don't think he's going to be able to defend good scoring big men.

Secondly, the stuff he does well now in terms of rebounding is all stuff that can be taught. Footwork, position, etc can all be improved, ditto for passing out of the middle. So while they are certainly attributes, I don't know why he is rated ahead of someone like Taft who is an athletic freak, intense on both ends, and can learn to do a lot of the things Bogut does well now.

He didn't do much scoring last night, so I couldn't rate his post moves or shot, but his awareness of his teamates when he gets doubled is impressive, but there were times when he was just a little slow to kick it out and perhaps if it's two nba players doubling him, the delay would cost him.

All in all he's a good player, but I don't think he has as much upside as other players and he has some weaknesses that should keep him out of the top 3 realistically, but I would probably keep him out of the top 5 or 6 if I had one of those picks.


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## ChrisCrossover

Let me give you credit for this great review. It pretty much confirms the impression I got from Bogut. Low top-10 pick should be alright.


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## The Mad Viking

I suppose the best comparables are Vlade Divac and Brad Miller. 

But Bogut is putting up much better numbers as a soph than Miller did as a Senior. Of course, Miller was never drafted...

To me Bogut is a better athlete than either of these two, but already displays a lot of the savvy. He has Miller's intensity, with a much better inside game.


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## rainman

i look at taft and i keep seeing kwame brown and chris wilcox. a lot of players do alot of things very well and nothing really outstanding. bogut is an outstanding passer and an outstanding rebounder. we'll see how good his defense is at the next level because a lot of bigmen dont go after a lot of shots in college because they want to stay on the court. what's going to help him is the nba scouts international ball(we dont have access to a lot of that) and he has excelled for the australian national team. in other drafts he wouldn't be talked about as being the #1 pick but if you're atlanta or new orleans and you're sitting there needing a center you will look long and hard at bogut. no matter what, he's going pretty high.


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## BigMike

> First of all, his hands just did not seem as good as they've been billed. They were ok, but I wasn't impressed by any means.


I agree with a lot of your report, but this part is incorrect. Maybe that's the only game you saw him, in which case it makes sense you're not impressed with his hands or scoring, but his hands are very bit as good as advertised...he catches absolutely everything, and nothing is ever ripped away from him.


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## ChrisCrossover

> Originally posted by <b>The Mad Viking</b>!
> I suppose the best comparables are Vlade Divac and Brad Miller.
> 
> But Bogut is putting up much better numbers as a soph than Miller did as a Senior. Of course, Miller was never drafted...


Miller peaked very late in his development, so these two are hard to compare. I think for Bogut, a lot will depend on his ability to play the NBA center position, where he seems to be headed to. If he can convince the scouts that he has the abilities necessary to compete against NBA centers, his chances to be the top overall pick will increase dramatically.


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## The Mad Viking

Even if he can't play NBA center, what do you have? A Pau Gasol with better passing and rebounding. Not too shabby...

I don't believe there is ANY chance he falls past the Jazz. Which is #4 right now...

Centers go #1. PGs have to be perfect. Or better. And they still go #3 or later...

Taft is not going ahead of Bogut. He is simply not productive. Fine athlete, but it is a concern that he is outrebounded by lots of SFs. Product of the NY hype machine.

The group of PGs makes it much less likely that any one of them goes 1st overall. Because the 4th one taken could end up the best, and the 1st one taken could end up the 4th best. You don't pass a one-of-a-kind 7-footer for that.

I still think he will go #1.


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## ChrisCrossover

Gasol is way ahead athletically. After all he used to be a Nowitzki-like combo-forward back in Spain (and on the international level) before he was forced into playing center in Memphis. Bogut is another Troy Murphy, if that, with better understanding of the game but still less athleticism. Do you take a bet? I say that Taft will be drafted ahead of Bogut. Are we in agreement?  

BTW: Concerning "productivity doesn't count", may I remind you of the 12 points, 7 rebounds a game that made Chris Wilcox the #8 selection in a much stronger class of 2002?


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## Nimreitz

Yeah, I don't think a comparison to Wilcox is a bad thing either. If Chris plays in the East he could be one of the top 3 power forwards in the conference.


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## The Mad Viking

I'll take that bet. :twocents: 

Mike Dunleavy Jr. went 3rd that year...

It will ultimately depend on several factors, though:

1. How MUCH difference there is in their performance at the combines.

2. A team more interested in defence would be more inclined to Taft. Scoring = Bogut.

3. If you have more immediate needs, you would be more inclined to Bogut. If you can wait a year or two, Taft becomes more desirable.

3. Some scouts value athleticism more, others skill.

Look at some of the Utah games. Bogut hits 60% 80% sometimes 100% of his FGs, and the rest of the team, 33%. He is easily the best passer on his team. And they need to get HIM the ball MORE and have him take more shots!


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## Bron_Melo_ROY

Alls I know is that the 1st overall pick in the 2005 NBA Draft is up for grabs and unlike the past years, this no. 1 overall pick will be based on each teams needs.


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## BigMike

> Alls I know is that the 1st overall pick in the 2005 NBA Draft is up for grabs and unlike the past years, this no. 1 overall pick will be based on each teams needs.



Which helps Bogut greatly...who doesn't need a center?


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## The Mad Viking

:yes: BigMike.

12 points on 5/6 shots in 23 minutes b4 sitting in blow-out of Wyoming. 8 boards, 3 assists, block, steal. Hit his trey attempt, now at 37.5%. 

His FG% is now 63.9, he has only had ONE game this year where he has not been over 50% (4/9, 44.4).


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## BigMike

25 and 18 tonight against another quality big man in Matt Nelson.

10/21 shooting though...rather un-Bogutesque, but at least he's taking a lot of shots.


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## The Mad Viking

In the showdown against Mountain West rival New Mexico, (who unlike Utah did receive some votes for National Ranking) Bogut did more than dominate.

24 points on 11/14 shooting, 20 rebounds and 3 blocks, leading the Utes to a 69-58 win and establishing them as the top team in Mountain West. 

Bogut held his check, the 6-9 240 lb Dave Chiotti, to 9 points on 3/10 shooting, forced 2 turnovers, and limited him to just *2* rebounds! 

Tonight, they take on Air Force and try to extend their win streak to 12. They will probably have to run the table to get into the rankings...


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## HKF

He's playing incredibly well.


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## rainman

i really like bogut but his being mentioned as #1 is proof we're talking a weak draft, i know this has been mentioned but its looking weaker and weaker as the draft approaches and its usually the other way around.


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## ivo_krka

I think Bogut is very underestimated. I think he has the biggest basketball inteligence of all the players out in this year's draft, is very underestimated and is easily going to be an All star and one of NBA's top rebounders in next 10 years or so.


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## ThatBlazerGuy

Bogut reminds me of a white Tim Duncan. He isnt as good a defender, but his smarts, post moves, underrated mid ranged game and variety of blocks, passes and steals are very Duncan esque. He also plays quietly, much like TD. People underrate him because he cant jump over a house and he doesnt have awesome dunks.


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## jdg

Another nice game for Bogut tonight. 25 pts, 9 reb, and a win against Air Force.

Also of note, the Utes are making their appearance in the top 25 this week.


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## BigMike

Andrew Bogut

:allhail:

This guy is so good it's disgusting. And I'm not just saying that because I'm a biased Ute fan. He's the best player in the history of the U, probably the Mountain West, and up there with the MWC/WAC. He is far and away the best big man in the country, and I'd definetely take him top 3 in the draft. He's the best rebounder in the nation bar none, I don't care what stats say (although he boards like a maniac, he might be leading the country) and every single time he touches it in the post, he scores. ALWAYS. Once he catches it, you can't defend him. He's too big, too strong, too tough, and has too soft a touch. I guess you could just triple team him, but that would make him even more effective.

I haven't seen a player in the country as good as Bogut, and I don't think I will. He should absolutely be a first team AA, and should make a push for the Wooden Award.


There will be no stopping the Utes until early April, IMO.


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## ChrisCrossover

Boy, is this guy dominant. The last college post player I've seen on a roll like this was Emeka Okafor - and he was a top-3 slection, after all. 

Call me stubborn but I still don't believe Bogut will go first, for the same reason Okafor didn't - lack of upside. Some talented youngster will probably be taken ahead of him. But as it stands, Bogut is top-5 for sure. I'm really looking forward to seeing how he fares against quality competition.


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## Geaux Tigers

Well regardless of where Bogut goes he has a few things that I find valuable in a pro.

Consistency - I believe he will be able to put up consistent numbers without much fluctuation in play.

Durability - I see him being able to play tough and not miss game due to injury. I also see him having a long career due to his passing ability, much like Vlade Divac. He can use his finesse skills when he's older.

Contribution - He will be able to contribute right away like Emeka Okafor. He will have a normal rookie season but he will learn quickly and be able to help out.


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## The Mad Viking

Finally, the love coming in for Bogut... 



Of note - he had ONLY 9 rebounds against Air Force - in a game where there were only *31* missed FGs! His 9 was just 1 less than the ENTIRE AIR FORCE TEAM!



Watching the mockboards...

Over at nbadraft.net he crept up 1 spot to 9th, still behind a couple of stringbean European forwards who are, or claim to be, 17 years old.

DraftCity has him at...
...ta-da
#1 overall.
As would befit a Tim Duncan clone. Thanks, ThatBlazerGuy.

Still 10th at HoopsHype.  
Behind Shelden Williams (5) Ike Diogu (3!) and Kosta Perovic (7).


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## jazzy1

Please get off the hype train. Last season at MSG he looked terrible against UCon's athlete's and thats what he'll see every night in the league. 

He is very Divac-ish. I think if he became like Divac he'd be doing well fo himself. 

LOL at the Duncan comparison not even in the vicinity of being close. He's real slow, not that athletic really and seems to struggle against quicker players. 

Bogut is an improving offensive player and if he goes number 1 it will have been a bad draft.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> LOL at the Duncan comparison not even in the vicinity of being close. He's real slow, not that athletic really and seems to struggle against quicker players.


Not saying he will be Duncan, but I remember hearing a lot of the same stuff said about Duncan. And not explosive enough, too passive, not enough emotion, blah, blah, blah ...


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## BigMike

Not enough emotion? Bogut?

He's the most intense guy on the court, every night. Just watch him play...he's very emotional.


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## SeaNet

Only two things I haven't seen mentioned in this thread. He played very well in international competition, both on the junior level where he was absurdly dominant, and in the Olympics where all reports indicated he played Tim Duncan very tough and put up good numbers as well. And for those who saw him last year struggle a bit against the athletes of UConn as someone wrote, he shed some weight since then and apparently has improved his quickness considerably. And as a last note, I don't think his hands can be understated. They are amazing, and a big man w/ great hands is something that every team (esp. those who watch great passes bounce off their center's and pf's hands) in the NBA would would kill for the opportunity to get.


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## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>BigMike</b>!
> Andrew Bogut
> 
> :allhail:
> 
> This guy is so good it's disgusting. And I'm not just saying that because I'm a biased Ute fan. He's the best player in the history of the U, probably the Mountain West, and up there with the MWC/WAC. He is far and away the best big man in the country, and I'd definetely take him top 3 in the draft. He's the best rebounder in the nation bar none, I don't care what stats say (although he boards like a maniac, he might be leading the country) and every single time he touches it in the post, he scores. ALWAYS. Once he catches it, you can't defend him. He's too big, too strong, too tough, and has too soft a touch. I guess you could just triple team him, but that would make him even more effective.
> 
> I haven't seen a player in the country as good as Bogut, and I don't think I will. He should absolutely be a first team AA, and should make a push for the Wooden Award.
> 
> 
> There will be no stopping the Utes until early April, IMO.


This is the most biased tripe I've ever read. I'll forgive you're ignorance because you're only 16, but to say he is the best Ute ever means you never got to see Keith Van Horn in college. Van Horn graduated in 1997 (which would put you at around 8-9 when he was playing), but he was better than Bogut, no question about it. Van Horn was a wooden candidate for 3 straight years. Don't hold his pro career against him, where he turned into a sissy mary. That still doesn't take away his flat out dominance on the college level. 

Please drop the hyperbole. The Mountain West is a weak conference, please don't fail to neglect that. I like Bogut too, but when you start spewing out nonsense, I gotta put a stop to it.

Also Duncan, was never considered non-athletic. Where did that come from? There's a reason Duncan was considered the consensus No. 1 for 3 years (95, 96 and 97). He was true dominant big man and the NBA couldn't wait to have him.


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## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Not saying he will be Duncan, but I remember hearing a lot of the same stuff said about Duncan. And not explosive enough, too passive, not enough emotion, blah, blah, blah ...


This is not true. He was the consensus No.1 pick. Everyone wanted him. The only thing they questioned was his desire to be great, due to him always wanting to stay in school, even when he was the No. 1 prospect for 3 consecutive years. This guy was a super prospect the day his freshman year concluded with a loss to Kansas in the 2nd round in 1994.


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## botta

I may be biased being aussie but i reckon bogut should be number one. he's just so good. a top rebounder, shooter, passer. no he's not all at athletic but the way he plays there's no huge need to be able to jump out of the building, yeah that'd help but it's not necessary.


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## Critic

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Please get off the hype train. Last season at MSG he looked terrible against UCon's athlete's and thats what he'll see every night in the league.


Have you even been watching the guy this year? Obviously not! He was never being touted as a potential number 1 draft pick last year was he! He did however have an outstanding freshman year and in finding his feet in a land along way from his turned a few eyebrows along the way. He is being touted now as the first pick because of his outstanding improvement in his sophmore season so far. He lost his senior frontcourt partner in Tim Frost to graduation and has literally taken the team on his huge shoulders this year. He has shown incredible leadership qualities for someone still so young.

One thing that really sticks in my mind about him is that he was the first player to play for the senior Australian mens side as a teenager since Andrew Gaze (and Andrew Gaze is one of the top five international level players ever!). He not only made the team...but he started every game and averaged around 14 points and 9 boards in strong olympic competition. He more than held his own against Tim Duncan (yes! Tim Duncan) in the Australia/US matchup scoring easily inside several times over Duncan and Odom...and due to his excellent passing out of the post... the Australian guards damn near took the game away from the American team with great perimeter shooting.

The fact is...all this talk of his 'limited upside' is hogwash. He has continued to improve for at least the last 5 years. I know!! Ive played against him!! The fact that he wasnt even dominating the competition here only three or four years ago is proof of his unbelievable improvement. In my opinion...he still has alot of potential. He is a tireless worker in an era of players that have become somewhat soft and would rather complain to the referees than get on with the business of stopping his opposing player and putting the ball in the hole. My personal comparison to Andrew so far is Troy Murphy. Both of these guys play hard and clean the glass very effectively due to their constant hustle and relentless intensity.

Andrew Bogut will go along way in the game of basketball. Despite all the doubters on this site who seemingly know nothing about the ins and outs of the game, Andrew has thrived on this and proven to his peers that he has arrived. His great passing and rebounding skills will surprise many when he enters the pro ranks. I congratulate him on his season so far and I hope the Utes go deep into the tournament come March. One things for sure...Im sure going to enjoy watching Andrew school opponents in the NBA on post footwork and defensive intensity the way he has been doing to us Aussies for the last 5-6 years. Good job Andrew! Go Utes!


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## Critic

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> This is the most biased tripe I've ever read. I'll forgive you're ignorance because you're only 16, but to say he is the best Ute ever means you never got to see Keith Van Horn in college. Van Horn graduated in 1997 (which would put you at around 8-9 when he was playing), but he was better than Bogut, no question about it. Van Horn was a wooden candidate for 3 straight years. Don't hold his pro career against him, where he turned into a sissy mary. That still doesn't take away his flat out dominance on the college level.
> 
> Please drop the hyperbole. The Mountain West is a weak conference, please don't fail to neglect that. I like Bogut too, but when you start spewing out nonsense, I gotta put a stop to it.
> 
> Also Duncan, was never considered non-athletic. Where did that come from? There's a reason Duncan was considered the consensus No. 1 for 3 years (95, 96 and 97). He was true dominant big man and the NBA couldn't wait to have him.


HKF... How are you man? Glad to read your comments as usual.

I see your point about how stupid it is labelling Andrew the best player at Utah ever... I dont think you can quite put labels on him like that just yet. Afterall...there have been some pretty outstanding players come out of Majerus's program from last year back. Van Horn, Miller etc etc

On the other hand...I dont quite agree with this 'weak conference' argument you have made. Although the MWC is obviously far less talented than some of the traditional powerhouses (ACC, Big East, Big 12, PAC 10 etc etc)... the Utes have done extremely well against quality non conference opposition during Andrews 2 seasons despite their obvious lack of depth compared to the more highly ranked squads. For example...this year they have played against two highly ranked non-conference teams this year... Washington (currently 10th) and Arizona (currently 11th)... The did lose both of these games as expected...Washington L 78-71 and Arizona L 67-62... but both of these games were extremely close. He had 20 points on 8-10 shooting and 10 boards against Arizona and 23 points on 8-8 shooting, 12 boards, 4 assists and 4 blocked shots against Washington. Head coach of Arizona...Lute Olsen said after their encounter that Bogut was an absolute handful with his full court game and great hands and touch around the basket. He also had a very strong game against non conference LSU with Brandon Bass and Glen Davis. He completely shut down Davis (4 points 1-4 shooting and only 1 rebound) on his way to posting 24 points, on 10-15 shooting to go with 17 rebounds. LSU's head coach John Brady said this... "I thought (Andrew) Bogut made the difference in the game. We tried to double him, but we couldn't stop him. He has improved dramatically from last season. He didn't hurt us last year, but he has improved a great deal and he is the key to this team." Utah won 69-55.

I realise that Andrew struggled last year against some players such as Emeka Okafor and Craig Smith...but he was only a freshman!!! He has dramatically improved since his olympic experiences and has really learned alot from the Australian coaching staff with Brian Goorjian and his new Ute coach Ray Giacoletti. Its not fair to compare Andrew to his freshman year opponents because he is now bigger, faster, more experienced and more confident.

If he was to stay at Utah till his senior year, I have no doubt that he would go down as being one of the best Utes ever. I cant see him staying after this year however. I'm sure Giacoletti is trying hard though!


----------



## ChrisCrossover

I agree with your opinion when it comes to Bogut (I also chose the Murphy comparison) but I have one question:



> Originally posted by <b>Critic</b>!Andrew Gaze is one of the top five international level players ever!


Um, you mean "top 5 of Australia", right?


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>Critic</b>!
> 
> 
> HKF... How are you man? Glad to read your comments as usual.
> 
> I see your point about how stupid it is labelling Andrew the best player at Utah ever... I dont think you can quite put labels on him like that just yet. Afterall...there have been some pretty outstanding players come out of Majerus's program from last year back. Van Horn, Miller etc etc
> 
> On the other hand...I dont quite agree with this 'weak conference' argument you have made. Although the MWC is obviously far less talented than some of the traditional powerhouses (ACC, Big East, Big 12, PAC 10 etc etc)... the Utes have done extremely well against quality non conference opposition during Andrews 2 seasons despite their obvious lack of depth compared to the more highly ranked squads. For example...this year they have played against two highly ranked non-conference teams this year... Washington (currently 10th) and Arizona (currently 11th)... The did lose both of these games as expected...Washington L 78-71 and Arizona L 67-62... but both of these games were extremely close. He had 20 points on 8-10 shooting and 10 boards against Arizona and 23 points on 8-8 shooting, 12 boards, 4 assists and 4 blocked shots against Washington. Head coach of Arizona...Lute Olsen said after their encounter that Bogut was an absolute handful with his full court game and great hands and touch around the basket. He also had a very strong game against non conference LSU with Brandon Bass and Glen Davis. He completely shut down Davis (4 points 1-4 shooting and only 1 rebound) on his way to posting 24 points, on 10-15 shooting to go with 17 rebounds. LSU's head coach John Brady said this... "I thought (Andrew) Bogut made the difference in the game. We tried to double him, but we couldn't stop him. He has improved dramatically from last season. He didn't hurt us last year, but he has improved a great deal and he is the key to this team." Utah won 69-55.
> 
> I realise that Andrew struggled last year against some players such as Emeka Okafor and Craig Smith...but he was only a freshman!!! He has dramatically improved since his olympic experiences and has really learned alot from the Australian coaching staff with Brian Goorjian and his new Ute coach Ray Giacoletti. Its not fair to compare Andrew to his freshman year opponents because he is now bigger, faster, more experienced and more confident.
> 
> If he was to stay at Utah till his senior year, I have no doubt that he would go down as being one of the best Utes ever. I cant see him staying after this year however. I'm sure Giacoletti is trying hard though!


Critic, I actually like Bogut quite a bit (and have him as my No.1 pick in the 2005 draft as of today). He is a true Center, however, he's still has flaws in his game for the pro level. His hands and his rebounding are huge pluses. His quickness, defense and strength worry you over the long term, but he still should end up being a really good player. 

I just had to take umbrage with the thought that he's the best Ute ever. That is crazy talk. I still have those tapes of Van Horn. He was really like a poor man's Larry Bird on the college level. He was that good. I still don't know what happened to him in the pros. 

As to the Mountain West, it's not a great conference at all. The numbers that Bogut is putting up on a nightly basis are impressive, but then need to be taken into account the competition he faces in his conference. Craig Smith was a sophomore a year ago, only a year older and 5 inches shorter. That's a concern. It seems like a strong, athletic guys give him trouble and the NBA has a lot of that to offer. To put in perspective how weak the MWC is, only one team (Utah) would make the tournament if it started today. 

That said, I think he's going to be a good player on the pro level. Just the Duncan stuff and blatant disregard for Van Horn made me have to post.


----------



## SeaNet

Us Net fans also don't know what happened to KVH in the pros. Wtf? He should have been a dominate player. Oh well.


----------



## BigMike

> This is the most biased tripe I've ever read. I'll forgive you're ignorance because you're only 16, but to say he is the best Ute ever means you never got to see Keith Van Horn in college. Van Horn graduated in 1997 (which would put you at around 8-9 when he was playing), but he was better than Bogut, no question about it. Van Horn was a wooden candidate for 3 straight years. Don't hold his pro career against him, where he turned into a sissy mary. That still doesn't take away his flat out dominance on the college level.



I saw Van Horn as a junior and a senior. I was at the WAC Tournament games in Las Vegas where he hit the game winners at the buzzer against SMU and New Mexico. I saw his shooting performance on senior night, which was absolutely unbelievable. He was unreal. I also saw Andre Miller as a sophomore, junior, and senior. He turned in one of the most brilliant NCAA Tournaments in recent history in 1998, taking the team on his back and delivering clutch performance after clutch performance, including the first NCAA Tourney Triple Double in 20 years while seemingly single-handedly thrashing Arizona 76-51. I also watched him his entire senior season as he finished 2nd in the Wooden Award Voting. And I know quite a bit about past Ute greats...guys like Arnie Ferrin, McGill, et cetera...


HKF, I guarantee you...GUARANTEE you...that no Ute fan who has seen all of the Ute greats would take any other player in their sophomore season over Andrew Bogut.


----------



## Peja Vu

Andrew Bogut might be from down under, but it’s his mix of European finesse and American toughness that makes him stand out.


----------



## Chef

Bogut is top 3 in my book

The kid leaded Australia to the World Junior Championship all by himself... Considering that Australia has little bball tradition that is a huge merit... He is now leading the Utes as 19 year old... in a different country...

He will be a 18-12-3 guy in the league easily...


----------



## rainman

i think it should be noted that he has improved by leaps and bounds over last year, thats a good sign, shows there's some upside there. as for any comparison to keith van horn, maybe not on a college level but bogut should have a better pro career because he can play in the post and is a great rebounder and passer. van horn's problem is he was and is a bit of a tweener for the nba.


----------



## Critic

> Originally posted by <b>ChrisCrossover</b>!
> I agree with your opinion when it comes to Bogut (I also chose the Murphy comparison) but I have one question:
> 
> 
> 
> Um, you mean "top 5 of Australia", right?


No...I do not mean Australia. I mean that this guy is up with the top 5 international level players ever. Im not by any means saying he is amongst the top 5 greastest players ever...but in terms of international competition only. He played in 5 olympic games representing Australia constantly filling statsheets with his oustanding perimeter shooting and great passing. I believe he is now the highest point scorer in olympic and international history surpassing Brazilian Oscar Schmidt at the Athens Olympics.

Have you even heard of him Chris?


----------



## ChrisCrossover

Yes, I think I know who Andrew Gaze is. Maybe it just depends on how you define it. For me, it's absolutely a question of quality versus quantity. My top 5 players who ever starred in international competition would be Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon. Something in this direction. Gaze would get a high spot on a "players who got famous through international competition" because of the sheer masses of games he played internationally, especially at the Olympics. But Gaze as a top 5 selection on a "best players ever on international level" - um, no.


----------



## Tersk

Gaze's game isn't "superstar" like anymore, he probably wouldnt be a top 2 player on his team anymore. But its amazing that he's been playing pro basketball for like 20 years!. He's been ina atleast 4 olympics, I think 5.

Onto Bogut, whats the lowest you seem him falling, and do you think we'll get more NBA thanks to him


----------



## Greg Ostertag!

> Originally posted by <b>ChrisCrossover</b>!
> My top 5 players who ever starred in international competition would be Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon. Something in this direction.


Absolutely not. Each of those players played in one Olympics. Of course, they all had stellar campaigns (sans Larry Bird, he sat on the bench for most of the time, did he not) but as far as aggregrate Olympic records go - you cannot go past Oscar Schmidt and Andrew Gaze for #s 1 and 2. They probably had 10+ Olympics between them. I mean, MJ only averaged 14-15 ppg in his one Olympics, Gaze did better than that over 5.

Those guys you mentioned may have been the best players ever to grace an international court, but they didn't have the best records... crazy as it may sound.


----------



## The Mad Viking

I'm pretty sure when it is all said and done, that Andrew Bogut will be known as the best basketball player who ever donned the jersey for the Running Utes.

However, as he is coming out as a sophomore, you have give both KVH and Miller their props as being greater UTES.

As far as how they KVH and Bogut compare, look at their soph statlines.

KVH 21ppg 54.5%FG, 8.5rpg 1.4apg 0.8spg 0.8bpg 38%3P on 5 att/g, 85% FTs

Bogut 20ppg 65%FG 12.2rpg 2.4apg 1.2spg 1.7bpg 3/9treys 70% FTs

KVH scores a 5% more points on 10% more shot attempts. Both get to line 5x per game.
Bogut gets nearly 40% more rebounds, 70% more assists, 50% more steals, more than twice the blocks.


----------



## ChrisCrossover

> Originally posted by <b>Greg Ostertag!</b>!
> Those guys you mentioned may have been the best players ever to grace an international court, but they didn't have the best records... crazy as it may sound.


That's exactly what I mean. They were the best players and they played international ball at the olympics. Their overall FIBA accomplishments, though, fade compared with those of Gaze and Schmidt, who have amassed more on the international level. Still, they aren't the better players than Bird & Co. and by my definition cannot be counted among the "top five international players". That is why I said it all comes down to how you define this term.


----------



## The Mad Viking

It's all about terms of reference.

Bogut is not the best Ute cause he will only play 2 years there. (HKF)

But some HOF NBA players who did play in a few international games are the best international players ever. (ChrisXO)



If I were an Aussie, I might feel discriminated against!


----------



## The Mad Viking

*Bogut rockets up in nbadraft Mock*

From #9 to # 4 in the last update.

Taft to #1 as well. (He threw some down against Providence, but missed a lot of layups, too. Showed some spark, though!)

Bogut Still #1 at Draft City.

and still behind Perovic at HoopsHype! :laugh: 

Bogut had 20/9 with 5 blocks against BYU last night, extending the Utes win streak to 13.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

Yeah, he's a special player. Unlike Taft, he already has a pretty good post game. He had one block last night that was just sick, and it was all about timing, not athleticism. And a _real_ 7 footer, not one of these 6'10" maybe 6'11" if we push it guys. He's a good player.


----------



## The Mad Viking

Bogut's check on BYU:

Derek Dawes, 6-11, 255. Sophomore.

Previous game, vs New Mexico 
14pts on 6/7 shooting, 10 rebs, 4 blocks, 32 minutes.

Vs Bogut
4 pts, 2 rebs, 0 blocks, fouls out after 17 minutes.


----------



## bullet

Damm good player.

Top 5 imo.


----------



## Charlotte_______

Well hes going to Charlotte. End of discussion


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Charlotte_______</b>!
> Well hes going to Charlotte. End of discussion


I wonder how that would work out with Okafor and Bogut playing side by side.


----------



## jdg

http://nbadraft.net/draftbuzz030.asp 



> Bogut is an interesting bloke with a collection of pets including a kangaroo and a crocodile. No word on any future appearances on the Crocodile Hunter show, but this Aussie is sure to be adding some basketball hardware to his collection of exotic animals in the near future.


It's just amazing that even after someone comes out saying they were just joking, people still insist on reporting this stuff. I know if I became famous in the States, I would claim to have had a dog-sled take me everywhere growing up. You know it would get reported as fast by some people!


----------



## ChitwoodStyle

> Originally posted by <b>Charlotte_______</b>!
> Well hes going to Charlotte. End of discussion


If he falls that far or if Charlotte trades up.

Of all the college players Bogut and Ike are my picks for the players who will raise their status during the tourny. Bogut could play his way to number 1.


----------



## rainman

> Originally posted by <b>ChitwoodStyle</b>!
> 
> 
> If he falls that far or if Charlotte trades up.
> 
> Of all the college players Bogut and Ike are my picks for the players who will raise their status during the tourny. Bogut could play his way to number 1.


got to see charlotte last night(without okafor), wasnt a pretty sight. being the draft nut i was trying to project what the cats would do with the top pick. they look pretty set at the pf postion with okafor and i always think its easier to find a pg somewhere rather than find a top flight big man so i would go with andrew bogut. him and okafor could give them a tim duncan/david robinson look for years to come. they might not be as good as those two but i think it puts them a lot closer to where they want to be as opposed to drafting some pg whose name isnt magic or jayson kidd.


----------



## BigMike

Bogut looks exhausted lately, Coach Jack needs to get him some rest.


----------



## Critic

He's been sick with the flu...


----------



## BigMike

Big game for Bogues...33 pts, 16 boards, 5 blocks 17/19 from the foul line...


----------



## doctor_darko

It's a great thing he just keeps improving (hard-work pays off)! However, I'm still worried about his defense; I watched the Olympics, and that was the part of the game he needed to improve the most. He was pretty much useless against Duncan and Odom (defensively); Nielsen did a much better. So, defense-wise, has Bogut improved (tha last time I saw him was in the Olympics)?

Offensively, it's a whole different story. Great player already, at such a young age! 

Cheers


----------



## The Mad Viking

> Originally posted by <b>BigMike</b>!
> Big game for Bogues...33 pts, 16 boards, 5 blocks 17/19 from the foul line...


Fouling him doesn't work.

Doubling him doesn't work.

Running your offence at him to get him in foul trouble - gets your *** blocked.

Letting him shoot doesn't work.

If you don't have an excellent post defender or two, you need a miracle to beat Utah. Unless the refs start calling crap fouls against him...

March Madness, here we come...


----------



## jdg

Another nice game for Bogut tonight.

31 pts 13 rbs 4 asts 11-16 FGM-A 9-11 FTM-A

Win number 17 in a row.

Can you forsee the first college player since Kenyon Martin to be taken #1 overall being Australian? I know I'm starting to feel it.


----------



## BigMike

As of right now would you guys say he's the favorite for the #1 pick?


----------



## rainman

> Originally posted by <b>BigMike</b>!
> As of right now would you guys say he's the favorite for the #1 pick?


not as automatic as yao or lebron. all those teams in the hunt(cats,hornets,warriors,hawks) all could use a pt guard like a chris paul or a raymond felton but they also could use a skilled big man and everything being equal size usually matters.


----------



## BigMike

Haha, no, he's definetely not automatic...personally, I may be partial to Marvin Williams myself...


----------



## jokeaward

He'll probably be the #1 overall pick. Taft and Paul are starting to get passed by Bogut and Williams, though only a frosh, who knows about Marty and Alexsandrov... I think it'll be Bogut. 

1) It's always about size. Even if Williams could be Jamison, Deng, or even Pippen/T-Mac, a GM will probably go for Bogut who might be like Brad Daugherty.
2) Atlanta needs a C not a swing, Utah would snatch Bogut up as well. Golden State would... I dunno. 

Charlotte's an easy UNC pick or another draft pick trade to get Felton lower. New Orleans might contemplate Williams.


----------



## NYKBaller

He has a game today vs Air Force I think, I can't seen it but can someone give a scouting report...


----------



## KG4MVP2

Bogut is top prospect right now by far.


----------



## Keith Closs

i dont follow utah that closely b what happened to bogut last year?how did he go from average to dominating in one year?


----------



## Keith Closs

i dont understand the knock on his athletic ability hes not a bad athlete at all, is he a freakish athlete? no but its aduquate enough for the nba level, hes not brad miller who cant get of the ground.

I think to much is put on athletic ability anyway, taft is a freakish athlete but doesnt have anywhere near the basketball skills bogut has, darius miles is a freakish athlete and was picked high becuz of it yet he never developed any bball skill, u cant get by on great athleticism alone.

Tim Duncan isnt a freak athlete in terms of leaping ability yet hes the best player in the game.


----------



## Amplifier

Is he that much better than Chris Kamen?


----------



## Critic

Ive said it a few times before... Andrew Bogut plays alot like Troy Murphy but he is even bigger and a better passer.


----------



## The Mad Viking

Amplifier said:


> Is he that much better than Chris Kamen?


Kamen had a assist to turnover ratio of maybe 0.25 in college. He had a ton of turnovers, and was slow to recognize the D/T.

Bogut has unbelievable court vision and passing skills for a center. He has almost as many assists as TOs, and keep in mind, his team shoot about 39% from the floor when he isn't the shooter. He has Sabonis / Divac passing skills. He also can hit an outside shot.

Kaman blocked more shots in college, but played in contstant foul trouble. Bogut only fouled out once this year, despite every opposing coach scheming to get him in foul trouble.

Not to knock Kaman. He is coming into his own, and was picked 6th after some guys named Lebron, Carmelo, Bosh, Dwyane... *coughDarkocough*!


----------



## jdg

Scout: MWC stars not NBA stars 

From the article:


> "Bogut has got a great future, but he needs to stay in school," Blake said. "He'll get stronger and develop a better hook shot if he stays in school. He is not playing against people his size. There are no centers. This is a kid with tremendous international experience. He's no secret, which means he's expected to be a good player."


I think Marty Blake needs to think about what he is saying. Andrew Bogut is obviously far and away better than anyone he is playing against, so he should step it up to the next level. How is he gonna learn to play against guys like Shaq and Yao unless he faces players like that? From what I have seen, it is just an obvious step to go to the NBA.


----------



## rainman

jdg said:


> Scout: MWC stars not NBA stars
> 
> From the article:
> 
> 
> I think Marty Blake needs to think about what he is saying. Andrew Bogut is obviously far and away better than anyone he is playing against, so he should step it up to the next level. How is he gonna learn to play against guys like Shaq and Yao unless he faces players like that? From what I have seen, it is just an obvious step to go to the NBA.


i saw the quote by marty, he has been around so long i think he scouted russell and cousy. in a perfect world all these guys would stay four years in college but marty should know that isnt reality. my only comment to blake would be, if guys like bogut and chris paul and marvin williams dont come out are we going to be seeing the top picks be guys named shelden williams and ike diogu? might as well just cancel the draft altogether.


----------



## The Mad Viking

> if guys like bogut and chris paul and marvin williams dont come out are we going to be seeing the top picks be guys named shelden williams and ike diogu? might as well just cancel the draft altogether.


:rofl:


----------



## SeaNet

BigMike said:


> As of right now would you guys say he's the favorite for the #1 pick?


Overwhelmingly so. He's a legitimate NBA Center, right now. I would be shocked if he doesn't become the best passing big man in the NBA at some point, and he'll be one of the best from the moment he steps on the court. He's big, he's mean, he's patient when he needs to be, and aggressive when that's called for, and he's already got an NBA body. I don't see how any GM could turn him down. He's the type of center prospect that comes along once every 10 years or so, and he's not just a prospect, unlike the HSers. He's ready to play in the NBA, right now.


----------



## rainman

SeaNet said:


> Overwhelmingly so. He's a legitimate NBA Center, right now. I would be shocked if he doesn't become the best passing big man in the NBA at some point, and he'll be one of the best from the moment he steps on the court. He's big, he's mean, he's patient when he needs to be, and aggressive when that's called for, and he's already got an NBA body. I don't see how any GM could turn him down. He's the type of center prospect that comes along once every 10 years or so, and he's not just a prospect, unlike the HSers. He's ready to play in the NBA, right now.


can we package a few of our extras and get him up in seattle. i doubt it but its worth a try. i think bogut is good but he looks better in comparison because the amateur crop is so weak.


----------



## SeaNet

rainman said:


> can we package a few of our extras and get him up in seattle. i doubt it but its worth a try. i think bogut is good but he looks better in comparison because the amateur crop is so weak.


W/ all those Free Agents in Seattle, its possible that a S&T sending some of the Sonics young guys somewhere for a bad contract could bring back a high pick, but I doubt it. When bigtime center prospects that are ready to play right away come around, teams usually jump all over them.


----------



## rainman

SeaNet said:


> W/ all those Free Agents in Seattle, its possible that a S&T sending some of the Sonics young guys somewhere for a bad contract could bring back a high pick, but I doubt it. When bigtime center prospects that are ready to play right away come around, teams usually jump all over them.


for sure, someone would be looking for some combination of swift/collison/murray/ridnour. i dont think i'd do it but bogut would sure cure a lot of uncertainty at the 5 spot.


----------



## NYKBaller

Then your admitting the Swift draft was a bust also....


----------



## rainman

NYKBaller said:


> Then your admitting the Swift draft was a bust also....


hardly, i think bogut is just a more skilled player than robert. also he's much further along. i watch swift before sonics games down at the key arena and he has a lot of skill, i'm not giving up on him at all.


----------



## jokeaward

rainman said:


> if guys like bogut and chris paul and marvin williams dont come out are we going to be seeing the top picks be guys named shelden williams and ike diogu? might as well just cancel the draft altogether.


Of course it could fall apart since the draft has long since past the time of college seniors, it depends on the players who can choose to stay in college or int'l basketball. 

It would just have to have a Spanish and Brazilian feel, I guess. Spliiter, Vazquez, and Fernandez would probably stay in and move up. Hakim Warrick, Ronny Turiaf, Wayne Simien, Ryan Gomes, Salim Stoudamire, Danny Granger, etc. are the seniors and will get drafted somehwere.

Groups
Bogut
Potential-laden freshmen: Williams, Gay, Aldridge
Paul, D Williams, Felton, Gilchrist
Taller "PF"s, not as "proven": Spiltter, Taft, Veremeenko, Vazquez
Smaller PFs or SFs, more proof: Diogu, Warrick, Simien, Granger, S Williams, Gomes
Other: Villanueva, Turiaf
Wings: Fernandez, Hodge, Wright, Stoudamire

The HSers would probably jump at the chance to go high and not worry about and age limit in the new CBA.


----------



## rainman

jokeaward said:


> Of course it could fall apart since the draft has long since past the time of college seniors, it depends on the players who can choose to stay in college or int'l basketball.
> 
> It would just have to have a Spanish and Brazilian feel, I guess. Spliiter, Vazquez, and Fernandez would probably stay in and move up. Hakim Warrick, Ronny Turiaf, Wayne Simien, Ryan Gomes, Salim Stoudamire, Danny Granger, etc. are the seniors and will get drafted somehwere.
> 
> Groups
> Bogut
> Potential-laden freshmen: Williams, Gay, Aldridge
> Paul, D Williams, Felton, Gilchrist
> Taller "PF"s, not as "proven": Spiltter, Taft, Veremeenko, Vazquez
> Smaller PFs or SFs, more proof: Diogu, Warrick, Simien, Granger, S Williams, Gomes
> Other: Villanueva, Turiaf
> Wings: Fernandez, Hodge, Wright, Stoudamire
> 
> The HSers would probably jump at the chance to go high and not worry about and age limit in the new CBA.



you may a good point about highschoolers jumping for fear of an age limit. this is going to make a lack of any kind of developemental system even more of a problem because this group of highschoolers arent ready for the pros.


----------



## NYKBaller

Yeah a farm system for the NBA would be perfect, like in the NBDL each NBA team has an NBDL team and they play weekly also. Instead of jerseys they wear the teams practice unis. Then you can just bump up you guy to the real roster and eliminate the whole IL fraud going on.


----------



## HeinzGuderian

A farm system would be horrible.


----------



## BagFullOTreez

Im all for a farm system. That way teams could groom there talent without diluting the NBA game any further with sloppy play and poor fundementals. By the time a player is developed to what his potential displays he is ready for a max deal and usually would leave for a contender. (Jermaine O'Neal for example although invoulontary.) Eddy Curry for example is just starting to come into his own this year and it just happens to be the last year of his rookie contract. I mean come on.....Chicago could get porked if there Baby Bulls decide thats what is best for them.


----------



## ChitwoodStyle

Not real sure that this latest discussion belongs in the Bogut thread, but I completly agree that the NBA needs a developmental farm system they could also add a round to the draft. The farm system would help keep younger players from filling up the NBA bench getting DNP-CD's for an entire season. Also then the 2nd and newly created 3rd round draft picks could stay in the system of the team that drafts them, but in order for this to work, the new CBA would have to work out guaranteed contracts to first round picks, becuase the guaranteed contract wouldn't allow the player to play for the farm team because his contract is with the NBA team.


----------



## JNice

ChitwoodStyle said:


> Not real sure that this latest discussion belongs in the Bogut thread, but I completly agree that the NBA needs a developmental farm system they could also add a round to the draft. The farm system would help keep younger players from filling up the NBA bench getting DNP-CD's for an entire season. Also then the 2nd and newly created 3rd round draft picks could stay in the system of the team that drafts them, but in order for this to work, the new CBA would have to work out guaranteed contracts to first round picks, becuase the guaranteed contract wouldn't allow the player to play for the farm team because his contract is with the NBA team.


Actually, I think they said first round picks would play for the "farm" team or NBDL team while still earning the same amount from his guaranteed rookie contract. That is to avoid owners from using the farm system to cut salary.


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## BrettNYK

rainman said:


> i look at taft and i keep seeing kwame brown and chris wilcox. a lot of players do alot of things very well and nothing really outstanding. bogut is an outstanding passer and an outstanding rebounder. we'll see how good his defense is at the next level because a lot of bigmen dont go after a lot of shots in college because they want to stay on the court. what's going to help him is the nba scouts international ball(we dont have access to a lot of that) and he has excelled for the australian national team. in other drafts he wouldn't be talked about as being the #1 pick but if you're atlanta or new orleans and you're sitting there needing a center you will look long and hard at bogut. no matter what, he's going pretty high.


I wouldn't say that the Hornets need a Center. Jamaal Magloire is doing very well. He is nearly averaging a double-double and is only 26.


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## rainman

BrettNYK said:


> I wouldn't say that the Hornets need a Center. Jamaal Magloire is doing very well. He is nearly averaging a double-double and is only 26.


if you believe half of what you read(i usually dont) the hornets were intent on moving davis and magliore. rumor had it they were going to try to send jamal to toronto, hard to trade guys when they are injured though. if the hornets are happy with him going forward then your prediction that they are set there is right on. the other top teams in the draft, atlanta and charlotte are also looking at everyone but have to be interested in the best big man in the draft(bogut). is charlotte happy with brezac and does atlanta sign delambert in the offseason(another rumor). everyone would like bogut. expect some real jockeying to happen on draft day. i know utah would love to have andrew, i dont think mehmet okur takes them to the promised land there. and he would be an obvious fan favorite having played for the utes.


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## HKF

HeinzGuderian said:


> A farm system would be horrible.


You mean for the college game correct? Actually, parity would be even more prevalent if more kids went into a farm system, although that means the little schools would have a chance. 

I'm all for a farm system, if you're trying to put in an age limit. No farm system, no age limit.


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## JNice

HKF said:


> You mean for the college game correct? Actually, parity would be even more prevalent if more kids went into a farm system, although that means the little schools would have a chance.
> 
> I'm all for a farm system, if you're trying to put in an age limit. No farm system, no age limit.


I agree. An age limit is the cop out solution. An age limit might keep some guys from coming into the league that don't belong, but why should kids like Lebron, Amare, and Dwight Howard not be able to come into the league before they are 20 yrs old?


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## Crossword

JNice said:


> I agree. An age limit is the cop out solution. An age limit might keep some guys from coming into the league that don't belong, but why should kids like Lebron, Amare, and Dwight Howard not be able to come into the league before they are 20 yrs old?


Well Amare was 20 when he came out anyway... but you could replace him with guys like Carmelo and Chris Bosh, who were both 19 when they came out.


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## JNice

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Well Amare was 20 when he came out anyway... but you could replace him with guys like Carmelo and Chris Bosh, who were both 19 when they came out.



True. I think the NBA should have some way of doing something about the guys who clearly aren't ready ... but like I said, I think a 20 yr old age limit is a cop out.


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## BrettNYK

rainman said:


> if you believe half of what you read(i usually dont) the hornets were intent on moving davis and magliore. rumor had it they were going to try to send jamal to toronto, hard to trade guys when they are injured though. if the hornets are happy with him going forward then your prediction that they are set there is right on. the other top teams in the draft, atlanta and charlotte are also looking at everyone but have to be interested in the best big man in the draft(bogut). is charlotte happy with brezac and does atlanta sign delambert in the offseason(another rumor). everyone would like bogut. expect some real jockeying to happen on draft day. i know utah would love to have andrew, i dont think mehmet okur takes them to the promised land there. and he would be an obvious fan favorite having played for the utes.


I wouldn't know why the Hornets would want to trade Magloire. He is still young, and nearly averages a double-double. But we don't know what they could get for him, it could be well worth trading him if they can get enough.

And there will be alot of teams looking to draft Bogut. I know that my Knicks will be in the running. A 7-foot true center with the skills of Bogut is a rare and valuable commodity. I would be dancing up-and-down and shrieking like a girl that just saw me (Except this would be in a good way, not a fearful way, like when girls see me  ). He will be a star and has the potential to average 25 points, 12-15 rebounds, 3 blocks, 3-5 assists, and one or two steals a game. This is his potential, or at least in my oponion, so some of those numbers may seem out-of-whack to you, but I truely think that he could reach these numbers. Many people are saying that he doesn't have that good of an upside, but I disagree. He could be a bit of a poor man's Tim Duncan, or a rich man's Troy Murphy, a little bit of both, maybe. Come draft day, teams will be praying for him to drop.


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## ChitwoodStyle

JNice said:


> I agree. An age limit is the cop out solution. An age limit might keep some guys from coming into the league that don't belong, but why should kids like Lebron, Amare, and Dwight Howard not be able to come into the league before they are 20 yrs old?


True but there age limits for running for public office.
And if you look at the NBA as a business, which it is, why should a business be required to pay a younger person the same amount as someone with more experience, ie the older college or international draftee.


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## rainman

BrettNYK said:


> I wouldn't know why the Hornets would want to trade Magloire. He is still young, and nearly averages a double-double. But we don't know what they could get for him, it could be well worth trading him if they can get enough.
> 
> And there will be alot of teams looking to draft Bogut. I know that my Knicks will be in the running. A 7-foot true center with the skills of Bogut is a rare and valuable commodity. I would be dancing up-and-down and shrieking like a girl that just saw me (Except this would be in a good way, not a fearful way, like when girls see me  ). He will be a star and has the potential to average 25 points, 12-15 rebounds, 3 blocks, 3-5 assists, and one or two steals a game. This is his potential, or at least in my oponion, so some of those numbers may seem out-of-whack to you, but I truely think that he could reach these numbers. Many people are saying that he doesn't have that good of an upside, but I disagree. He could be a bit of a poor man's Tim Duncan, or a rich man's Troy Murphy, a little bit of both, maybe. Come draft day, teams will be praying for him to drop.


he's not going to drop, nbadraft.net just came out with a profile and compared him to kevin mchale. not sure if he's a defensive stopper like mchale was but just the comparison speaks volumes.


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## BrettNYK

rainman said:


> he's not going to drop, nbadraft.net just came out with a profile and compared him to kevin mchale. not sure if he's a defensive stopper like mchale was but just the comparison speaks volumes.


Yeah, I read that too. I don't expect him to drop, either. UNLESS he does horribly during March Madness, against tougher competition. I got a feeling that could really kill him, or really enforce that he is just that good. Teams will definitely have a magnifying glass on those games. If he does poorly and his team gets knocked out quickly, he could drop a bit.


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## The Mad Viking

Utah could easily be upset in the tournament. They are pretty close to a 1 man team. With every opposing team scheming against Bogut, you have to figure eventually someone will have some success.

If Jackson has a poor shooting game, and Bogut picks up a couple of cheap fouls, they will be in trouble. There is no size past Bogut... a 6-9 scrub, and a bunch of guards... Markson is a nice athlete, but I don't believe he can carry the team if Jackson's treys aren't dropping and Bogut is successfully contained. 

Its hard to say whether New Mexico contained him, or he just had a bad game...


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## JNice

ChitwoodStyle said:


> True but there age limits for running for public office.
> And if you look at the NBA as a business, which it is, why should a business be required to pay a younger person the same amount as someone with more experience, ie the older college or international draftee.


That is true, but there is a big difference between running for public office and playing basketball. I just don't see how you can tell guys like Lebron, Amare, and Dwight Howard that they can't come into the league when they are proving they can obviously not only earn their contracts but really help their teams. Lebron is on a rookie contract right now and I'm sure if any other team in the league had the opportunity they'd throw him a max contract right now.

The NBA's logic should be to keep the guys who aren't ready out of the NBA. Determining that by age is just too easy. A development league is the best option.


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## Vinsanity

NBADraft.net thinks he is going to be the first pick overall


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## Shabadoo

Being in Australia, today's Utah game on ESPN was the first time I have watched Bogut since the Olympics. In the Olympics I saw that he was one of the top 3 or 4 on the court in every game (except the US of course), but he never struck me as a potential #1 pick. He has improved since then.

Of course my observations are only based on 1 game, statistics and reading. Bogut seems to have an all around game. He has a great feel for the game, and a high basketball IQ. He makes very few mistakes, and the ones he does, are due to aggressive play (sometimes he forgets to bring the ball up high when he spins to the basket).

He has great handles for a big man, and very nice touch on his passes. His behind the back dribble was very nice, and seemingly in control. He reads the game well, and made a few great passes down low for easy buckets. He passes well out of the double team in the post.

His scoring game is simple, but top notch. He seals his man very well, and gets great low post postion. His footwork is great, and when he keeps the ball up high he's nearly unstoppable (at the college level). He isn't that athletic, but he is 7 feet tall. He's also got a nice jump shot when hes open for 3. I didn't see any mid range game to speak of though, although it wasn't needed today.

His rebounding is superb. Always boxes out, and always fights for rebounds. He comes down strong, and sometimes snatches the ball from other players in the air. He's also willing to sacrifice his body to get loose balls.

In terms of defense, he seems to be ok. He made a couple of nice blocks, but I think that it might be more due to height then great timing. He seems to challenge a lot of shots, and uses his body quite well on his man. He made a nice steal too.

So, I don't really know whether he will go #1 because I haven't watched many of the others in consideration (I've seen a little Marvin Williams last year and Warrick 2 years ago- he has obviously developed more). I do think though that he is already better then a lot of NBA centers. I would say that I came off about as impressed then I did with Okafor, who I watched in the Semis and the Finals of the NCAA tournament last year. Bogut I think is in the same league of athleticism and smarts as Okafor, except that Bogut is 7 feet tall. Bogut though has a more complete game, especially as a Sophmore. Okafor was much more adept on the defensive end though. I had concerns whether Emeka's game would translate to the NBA, and it has, so I think Bogut should be able to excel. Overall, he would be the safe pick for most teams to make.

Obviously though, I am biased :wink:


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## jdg

Shabadoo said:


> Obviously though, I am biased :wink:


For someone calling themselves biased, you seem to have a pretty good outlook on how things shake down, even after watching just the one game.


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## JNice

Vinsanity said:


> NBADraft.net thinks he is going to be the first pick overall



JNiceDraft.net thinks he is going to be the first pick as well.


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## BigMike

Most mock drafts that are regularly updated throughout the season have him #1 now...


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## jdg

BigMike said:


> Most mock drafts that are regularly updated throughout the season have him #1 now...


Except for HoopsHype.com... but, in my opinion, that mock draft is the biggest joke on the internet. Bogut at #12? Come on, guys?


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## Amplifier

This is why having draft talk five months early never works out. Taft for #1!


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