# Roy: are we undervaluing him?



## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

Roy doensn't do much for me. He's solid and safe, but not spectacular. So, like most of you, I'd rather pass. However, doesn't it make you wonder when both Toronto and Charlotte are working him out? Normally, I wouldn't expect the number 1 and 3 teams to look that far, when a player has been as visible as Roy in the college game. Maybe we are discounting him too much. I felt the same way about Mike Bibby, and he has done pretty well in the league. 

It may be that the top teams are just playing it safe in a relatively flat draft. But the interest being shown by Toronto and Charlotte does make me wonder if I'm missing something.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

1 year of decent play, as a *senior* does not warrant a top 5 lotto pick.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

FYI: Chicago is also looking at taking him with their #2 pick, and trading Gordon for a legit big man.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

SMiLE said:


> 1 year of decent play, as a *senior* does not warrant a top 5 lotto pick.


I somewhat agree yet I would be quick to also point out that it's happened many times before. Some people here wanted to pick Joakim Noah at #1 just for his play in the NCAA tourney.

Also IMO Roy's play was well above "decent" last year.


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## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

It's a matter of need. If there are 4 or 5 more or less equivalent players in the draft, teams will go by the position they need to fill. Portland does not have a dire need for a shooting guard. There are much bigger holes to fill on the roster.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

sa1177 said:


> I somewhat agree yet I would be quick to also point out that it's happened many times before. Some people here wanted to pick Joakim Noah at #1 just for his play in the NCAA tourney.
> 
> Also IMO Roy's play was well above "decent" last year.


I emphasized "senior" year for a reason. Yes, he had an above 'decent' year, but it was still in his senior year. 

And I don't buy that it's because of the players ahead of him. If a player is good enough, he'll get the minutes.

but the same does apply to joakim too. people acted like he was a sure thing because he had a decent tournament.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

Let TOR\CHI or CHA take him then...then we can forget about wasting our pick on him....

Seriously, this guy is being overated...not underrated...

Maybe, he...like Bargnani is being used by GM's to confuse other teams on who they are really interested in....


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

SMiLE said:


> 1 year of decent play, as a *senior* does not warrant a top 5 lotto pick.


That's silly.

It has nothing to do with what he's done in the past, only what he has the ability to do in the future. Past results don't mean that much. Look at Vince Carter's stats in college. Very pedestrian. What is he, 5 time all star? Look at Josh Howard. One decent season (as a senior) and he turned into a stud. The list goes on and on.


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## RedHot&Rolling (Jun 26, 2004)

SMiLE said:


> I emphasized "senior" year for a reason. Yes, he had an above 'decent' year, but it was still in his senior year.
> 
> And I don't buy that it's because of the players ahead of him. If a player is good enough, he'll get the minutes.
> 
> but the same does apply to joakim too. people acted like he was a sure thing because he had a decent tournament.


You're wrong about Joakim. His play in the Tourney was great play - not mearly decent. His energy and skills on the court showed flashes of brilliance to come. AND he's 6'11". Remember, you can't teach height!!

That said, Roy is a solid player who is one of the top 8 available players this year. Granted he's been a late bloomer, but with a weakened draft he's solidly in the lotto.


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## Tince (Jul 11, 2004)

I'm guessing Toronto is working him out in case they trade down, that's about it.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

RedHot&Rolling said:


> You're wrong about Joakim. His play in the Tourney was great play - not mearly decent. His energy and skills on the court showed flashes of brilliance to come. AND he's 6'11". Remember, you can't teach height!!


he has poor form on his shot, and he's mostly a taller ruben patterson.

he averaged 16 points and 9.

thats not brilliance, and thats not great play. 

he upped his averaged by 2 ppg. 

don't put too much importance on 6 games...of which he really only had 2 really good games, and 2 games against sub-par opponents (milwaukee-wisc? south alabama?)




> That said, Roy is a solid player who is one of the top 8 available players this year. Granted he's been a late bloomer, but with a weakened draft he's solidly in the lotto.


maybe 7-14, but not 1-4


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

SMiLE said:


> he has poor form on his shot, and he's mostly a taller ruben patterson.
> 
> he averaged 16 points and 9.
> 
> ...


Beat me to it Mr. Smile....As noted here Noah's play in the tourney certainly shouldn't be considered "great" IMO in terms of genuine on court production. One might consider his leadership, hustle and heart in the tourney "great" though. Of course hardly anyone is ever drafted high based solely on these criteria.


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## yakbladder (Sep 13, 2003)

SMiLE said:


> I emphasized "senior" year for a reason. Yes, he had an above 'decent' year, but it was still in his senior year.
> 
> And I don't buy that it's because of the players ahead of him. If a player is good enough, he'll get the minutes.
> 
> but the same does apply to joakim too. people acted like he was a sure thing because he had a decent tournament.


I don't get it, so what's so special about his "senior" year?

I know a lot of players who had great "junior" years and then did bubkiss after that.

Players growin in their game, as certain people are fond of reminding us, and not all grow at the same time or same amount. Just because someone is a senior does not preclude them from having tremendous improvement over anyone else.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

yakbladder said:


> I don't get it, so what's so special about his "senior" year?


because it's not as common for someone who had so-so fr-jr years and then have a really good sr year, to be as good as the sr #'s imply.


> I know a lot of players who had great "junior" years and then did bubkiss after that.
> 
> Players growin in their game, as certain people are fond of reminding us, and not all grow at the same time or same amount. Just because someone is a senior does not preclude them from having tremendous improvement over anyone else.


if he had better fr, soph, and jr years, I could see. but those years were nothing special. Especially not lotto worthy.


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## Utherhimo (Feb 20, 2005)

roy is not what the blazers need


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

SMiLE said:


> because it's not as common for someone who had so-so fr-jr years and then have a really good sr year, to be as good as the sr #'s imply.
> 
> 
> if he had better fr, soph, and jr years, I could see. *but those years were nothing special*. Especially not lotto worthy.


Nor are Tyrus Thomas's..yet he is a lotto picks based purely on potential. Potential plays a huge factor IMO and can outweigh stats in many instances. Of course teams sometimes get burned by this thinking. (See Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler etc.)


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

sa1177 said:


> Nor are Tyrus Thomas's..yet he is a lotto picks based purely on potential. Potential plays a huge factor IMO and can outweigh stats in many instances. Of course teams sometimes get burned by this thinking. (See Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler etc.)


thomas is also 19, and a freshman.

there's a HUGE different on drafting on "potential" when someone is a freshman and when someone is a sr.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

> thomas is also 19, and a freshman.
> 
> there's a HUGE different on drafting on "potential" when someone is a freshman and when someone is a sr.


I concur


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

SMiLE said:


> thomas is also 19, and a freshman.
> 
> there's a HUGE different on drafting on "potential" when someone is a freshman and when someone is a sr.


I agree that is true but I also think it's a bit silly...as noted earlier different players make significant jumps in their development at different times. Sure drafting someone as a freshmen rather then a senior gives them the potential for a longer NBA career but only by 2-3 seasons. It would be silly to overlook a player just because he is a college senior and might be able to play a few less NBA seasons then said freshman.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

sa1177 said:


> I agree that is true but I also think it's a bit silly...as noted earlier different players make significant jumps in their development at different times. Sure drafting someone as a freshmen rather then a senior gives them the potential for a longer NBA career but only by 2-3 seasons. It would be silly to overlook a player just because he is a college senior and might be able to play a few less NBA seasons then said freshman.


look at travis vs martell. travis is basically going into his senior year and webster his soph year...And I think Martell is much better than travis is. He's already better than travis is period, and he's younger.

The same is true of thomas vs roy (of which I want neither) and gay and roy (of which I'd rather have gay).

If you look at most of the players who are good, they had consistent games in college. They started off good, and ended good. they didn't go from bupkiss to 20 after 4 years.

Roy's growth wasn't spectacular, and his game isn't either. And if the claim is he was behind Nate Robinson on the depth chart/shot chart, what does that say about him? A guy who's 5'9" (AT BEST) is better than him??


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Agree with Hap. Gay and Morrison are both bettee than Roy is already and are both younger. Aldridge makes more sense than any of them and is younger as well.


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## e_blazer1 (Feb 3, 2004)

You know, there's a reason why teams do extensive scouting and then invite the top players to come to workouts before the draft. Players who look great in college and get fans all excited about their prospects can be lacking certain abilities or traits that make them poor candidates for the pro game. Other guys, due to a variety of reasons, may look to have potential for growth beyond what they've shown so far. It's not an exact science, as embarassed GMs prove each year when they pass on a guy who later turns out to be better than the schmuck they did pick. I guess that it just astounds me every year to read on message boards how we have to take so and so and should steer clear of some other prospects because we've watched a handful of college games and looked at a few stats. I'm willing to let the guys who get paid to evaluate the talent make the selection.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

SMiLE said:


> If you look at most of the players who are good, they had consistent games in college. They started off good, and ended good. they didn't go from bupkiss to 20 after 4 years.


Who cares what he did in the past? The only thing that matters is whether or not he's a good NBA prospect. I think the scouts know a lot more than you do. If they say he's worthy of a high lotto pick, I say they're probably right. If you say he's not worth that kind of pick because he only had one good year in college, you're probably wrong. 

Tim Duncan averaged fewer points per minute than Roy did as a freshman. He's good now. Kirk Hinrich had one good year, as a senior. He's developed into one of the best point guards in the league. Michael Redd started off good in college and steadily got worse. He's now an all star level player. Kenyon Martin had three terrible years in college and one great year. Before his injuries, he was close to all star level getting 17 and 10 every night. The list goes on and on of guys who were not always good, but got better. Michael Jordan got cut from his high school team. What a guy does before he gets to the league doesn't mean ****. What matters is whether or not he's a good prospect.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

SMiLE said:


> look at travis vs martell. travis is basically going into his senior year and webster his soph year...And I think Martell is much better than travis is. He's already better than travis is period, and he's younger.


What if it was equal and you had to choose 1. Would you throw Travis away simply because he is older. That would be a bit foolish IMO..whose to say he won't break out at age 23, 24, 25 etc. Age just isn't a great reason to draft or not draft a player IMO. 



> Roy's growth wasn't spectacular, and his game isn't either. And if the claim is he was behind Nate Robinson on the depth chart/shot chart, what does that say about him? A guy who's 5'9" (AT BEST) is better than him??


Who cares if he was behind Nate Robinson last year...it was a year ago and at the time Nate may have been a better player. I am surprised you mentioned height asa factor...remember Telfair sucks because he is "to short." :biggrin:


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

SMiLE said:


> I emphasized "senior" year for a reason. Yes, he had an above 'decent' year, but it was still in his senior year.
> 
> And I don't buy that it's because of the players ahead of him. If a player is good enough, he'll get the minutes.
> 
> but the same does apply to joakim too. people acted like he was a sure thing because he had a decent tournament.


 And some people just don't recognize talent when they see it!

Who did the Blazer organization covet the most in this years draft, until he made it absolutely clear he wasn't coming out this year?

Draft Express is considered by most to be the best draft website on the net, who did they have ranked first until the declaration deadline passed?

Who does Draft Express have going 2nd in next years draft behind Greg Oden?

Who did David Stern say was going to be a sure thing all-star in this league?

What big man had better stats per minute than this years best college big man?

What big man has the best ball handling skills in college today?


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

graybeard said:


> And some people just don't recognize talent when they see it!
> 
> Who did the Blazer organization covet the most in this years draft, until he made it absolutely clear he wasn't coming out this year?
> 
> ...


Noah will go back to FL next year and resume his good play...nothing spectacular..the hype of his NCAA perfomance will wear off and his draft stock will slip. He will still be a top 12 pick next year but he will not be picked anywhere near #2.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

sa1177 said:


> Noah will go back to FL next year and resume his good play...nothing spectacular..the hype of his NCAA perfomance will wear off and his draft stock will slip. He will still be a top 12 pick next year but he will not be picked anywhere near #2.


 And since you know more about basketball than Stern, the blazers and Draft Express, I expect them to be beating a path to your door to hire you next year as a consultant. No doubt they will be very greatfull for you showing them the error of their ways. Like I said, some people would'nt know talent if it bit them.


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## tlong (Jan 6, 2003)

Don't discount Noah. He's 6-11 and an excellent shot blocker. He would have been the #1 pick in this year's draft had he declared.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

graybeard said:


> And since you know more about basketball than Stern, the blazers and Draft Express, I expect them to be beating a path to your door to hire you next year as a consultant. No doubt they will be very greatfull for you showing them the error of their ways. Like I said, some people would'nt know talent if it bit them.


What's with the personal attacks? They make your post completely pointless and grossly lacking of substance? 

You have looked at next years pontential draftees I assume...I simply believe some of the other prospects such as Wright, Durant, Mayo will move ahead of Noah in the draft order. Noah's season statistics last year were good but not great, what makes you think next year will be any different? As noted earlier he only increased his scoring avg. by 2ppg in the NCAA tourney and that was mainly due to big games against sub-par opponents in the first and second rounds.

Also..who considers draftexpress as the best draft site? I have certainly never heard that. I would consider it no better then ESPN, RealGM, Hoopsvibe, Hoopsworld etc.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

> Who did the Blazer organization covet the most in this years draft, until he made it absolutely clear he wasn't coming out this year?


Who? I don't recall ANYONE from the BLAZERS saying they coveted Noah as the #1 pick.....I guess the media knows more than the teram does then?



> Draft Express is considered by most to be the best draft website on the net, who did they have ranked first until the declaration deadline passed?
> 
> Who does Draft Express have going 2nd in next years draft behind Greg Oden?


You do realize that Draft Express is run by nothing more than a glorified fan, don't you? Jonathan Givony is no scout...I guarantee you that...and all you have to do is to look at his latest mock for POR and wonder where his head is at.....

I like the site and once in awhile they have some interesting tidbits...but they are just as full of it as many draft fanatics are...


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

tlong said:


> Don't discount Noah. He's 6-11 and an excellent shot blocker. He would have been the #1 pick in this year's draft had he declared.


He would have supposedly been #1 if Portland had the #1 pick...otherwise who knows. As I recall Portland ended up with the 4th pick. 

So I suppose you could declare that Noah would have been drafted in the top 4 had he come out if you like.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

graybeard said:


> And some people just don't recognize talent when they see it!
> 
> Who did the Blazer organization covet the most in this years draft, until he made it absolutely clear he wasn't coming out this year?


via who? media rumors..

who are the blazers "covetting" now? Roy?

you honestly think thats A: true or B: means he's the best?



> Draft Express is considered by most to be the best draft website on the net, who did they have ranked first until the declaration deadline passed?
> 
> Who does Draft Express have going 2nd in next years draft behind Greg Oden?
> 
> ...


must be santa.....must be santa...must be santa....santa claus...who's got a big hairdo? joakims got a big hairdo! Who's got a jumper that is sub-par? Joakims got a jumper that is subpar--...weird hairdo....poor jumper...must be santa...must be san....er...


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

If you take Canzano's words as gospel than sure, Noah would have been our #1 pick...


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## tlong (Jan 6, 2003)

sa1177 said:


> He would have supposedly been #1 if Portland had the #1 pick...otherwise who knows. As I recall Portland ended up with the 4th pick.
> 
> So I suppose you could declare that Noah would have been drafted in the top 4 had he come out if you like.



Of course I am speculating, but I believe Noah would go #1 regardless of who has the first pick. He's a very good, legitimate center and I see no competition for him in this weak draft. I was surprised that he stayed in school because of this.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

tlong said:


> Of course I am speculating, but I believe Noah would go #1 regardless of who has the first pick. He's a very good, legitimate center and I see no competition for him in this weak draft. I was surprised that he stayed in school because of this.


I was a bit surprised he did as well because as I noted earlier I do not think he will go as high in the 2007 draft. Here is a question I have for you though...why is Noah any better of a pick then Aldridge?


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

sa1177 said:


> I was a bit surprised he did as well because as I noted earlier I do not think he will go as high in the 2007 draft. Here is a question I have for you though...why is Noah any better of a pick then Aldridge?


He's a lot more athletic. He's had zero injury issues. He clearly plays with more fire and intensity.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

Fork said:


> He's a lot more athletic. He's had zero injury issues. He clearly plays with more fire and intensity.


Aldridge has a better post game, better mid range jump shot, and better all around offensive skills. 

So basically I am saying each players has his advantages over the other but IMO neither one stands out above the other.

IMO people like Noah better because of his teams run to the NCAA title, who his dad is etc. All that hype doesn't get you anywhere in the NBA.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

Fork said:


> He's a lot more athletic. He's had zero injury issues. He clearly plays with more fire and intensity.


 He also has a motor that Aldridge could only dream of. And it can't be stressed enough..... He has ball handling skills which means he can pass and dribble. He used to be a guard before he put on a growth spurt.


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## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

Fork said:


> He clearly plays with more fire and intensity.


This is the big one to me. The bigger the game, the bigger Noah played. Also, there have been some pretty good shot blockers in the history of the NCAAs, but Noah smashed the record for blocks in a tournament (29 to 24). You can't ignore that kind of clutch performance.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

Reep said:


> This is the big one to me. The bigger the game, the bigger Noah played. Also, there have been some pretty good shot blockers in the history of the NCAAs, but Noah smashed the record for blocks in a tournament (29 to 24). You can't ignore that kind of clutch performance.


There are 82 games in a NBA season...a player who plays "big" in big games is nice, one who plays big in every game is better. A span of 6 games certainly doesn't sell me to Noah having any type of consistency in terms of performance. His averages in general are good but not great IMO. Thus I would likely pick someone who performs at a high level on a more consistent basis.


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## tlong (Jan 6, 2003)

sa1177 said:


> I was a bit surprised he did as well because as I noted earlier I do not think he will go as high in the 2007 draft. Here is a question I have for you though...why is Noah any better of a pick then Aldridge?


He is a better shot blocker and I think he's longer than Aldridge as well. He is also a leader and Aldridge is not.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Noah's also 5 months older than Aldridge and doesn't have any sort of offensive game in terms of scoring the basketball.

I agree with those that think that Noah has been massively overrated and I would be surprised to see him go in the top 5 next year. Which means he won't be a Blazer 

Ed O.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

Not only did Noah used to play guard.... he used to play *POINT* guard. Think about this for awhile, then watch some tapes of him, read this Link Big men with guard skills are damned rare. If you find one that likes physical contact and has the intensity that Noah has it is rare indeed.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

Ed O said:


> Noah's also 5 months older than Aldridge and doesn't have any sort of offensive game in terms of scoring the basketball.
> 
> I agree with those that think that Noah has been massively overrated and I would be surprised to see him go in the top 5 next year. Which means he won't be a Blazer
> 
> Ed O.


 Noah doesn't have an offensive game, yet managed to top Aldridge in every statistic per minute played?.... and he did it on a better team. What does that tell you?


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

graybeard said:


> Noah doesn't have an offensive game, yet managed to top Aldridge in every statistic per minute played?.... and he did it on a better team. What does that tell you?


ruben patterson scored pretty good per minute too, but his offensive game is limited.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

SMiLE said:


> ruben patterson scored pretty good per minute too, but his offensive game is limited.


 So imagine a 6' 11" Ruben Patterson with point guard skills and great leadership qualities.... I know the light is going to come on pretty soon for some of you guys.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

graybeard said:


> So imagine a 6' 11" Ruben Patterson with point guard skills and great leadership qualities.... I know the light is going to come on pretty soon for some of you guys.



yah, as a mid first rounder sure. But not a top 5 pick.

Noah doesn't have great form on his shot, or even really a great set of moves. He's basically a scrappy player, who had a good stretch (not even great) of 6 games. No one knew of him before march madness started, outside of him having floppy hair.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

graybeard said:


> So imagine a 6' 11" Ruben Patterson with point guard skills and great leadership qualities.... *I know the light is going to come on pretty soon for some of you guys*.


If I believed this point guard nonsense then it might...sure Noah might have better then average ball handling and passing skills for a big-man which is nice but they certainly are not anywhere near the level of a average NBA point guard or college PG for that matter. I would love to read up on these supposed skills. Have any links I can check out?


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

SMiLE said:


> yah, as a mid first rounder sure. But not a top 5 pick.
> 
> Noah doesn't have great form on his shot, or even really a great set of moves. He's basically a scrappy player, who had a good stretch (not even great) of 6 games. No one knew of him before march madness started, outside of him having floppy hair.


 Hap, you're hopeless. Did Clyde have great form on his shot?


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## tlong (Jan 6, 2003)

The fact that Noah led his team to the national title is very substantial to me. I think his detractors do not appreciate this enough.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

tlong said:


> The fact that Noah led his team to the national title is very substantial to me. I think his detractors do not appreciate this enough.


Need I list all the star players who have lead their teams to NCAA titles and then been terrible NBA players? Or not even played in the NBA at all.


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## yakbladder (Sep 13, 2003)

sa1177 said:


> Need I list all the star players who have lead their teams to NCAA titles and then been terrible NBA players? Or not even played in the NBA at all.


If you are going to ask for links about his PG days, then yes :biggrin:


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

sa1177 said:


> If I believed this point guard nonsense then it might...sure Noah might have better then average ball handling and passing skills for a big-man which is nice but they certainly are not anywhere near the level of a average NBA point guard or college PG for that matter. I would love to read up on these supposed skills. Have any links I can check out?


 Obviously Noah is not a college point guard. But according to draft express he was a point guard at some time. Here's the Noah Link.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

yakbladder said:


> If you are going to ask for links about his PG days, then yes :biggrin:


hmmm ok...will do. Although one is clearly based upon pure speculation and observation while the other is simply pure fact.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

sa1177 said:


> Need I list all the star players who have lead their teams to NCAA titles and then been terrible NBA players? Or not even played in the NBA at all.


 Find me one, just one, that was the Tournament MVP, that had ball handling skills, was close to 7' tall, likes physical contact and is even close to being as intense as Noah.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

graybeard said:


> Obviously Noah is not a college point guard. But according to draft express he was a point guard at some time. Here's the Noah Link.


so were alot of players...as I said it gives him above average passing and dribbling ability. That's about it. Unfort. he can't use it all that well because his offensive game is quite limited and his outside shooting is terrible.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

graybeard said:


> Find me one, just one, that was the Tournament MVP, that had ball handling skills, was close to 7' tall, likes physical contact and is even close to being as intense as Noah.


lol that has nothing to do with the point i made....I simply said many players have lead their teams to a tourney title and then been unsuccessful in the NBA.


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## tlong (Jan 6, 2003)

sa1177 said:


> Need I list all the star players who have lead their teams to NCAA titles and then been terrible NBA players? Or not even played in the NBA at all.


My response to this would be that all of the top pick candidates in this year's draft, except Bargnani, had the same opportunity *yet they didn't get it done*. The talent level on Florida was basically equal to several other teams in the tournament so that leads me to believe that Noah is pretty damn good.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

sa1177 said:


> so were alot of players...as I said it gives him above average passing and dribbling ability. That's about it. Unfort. he can't use it all that well because his offensive game is quite limited and his outside shooting is terrible.


 So were a lot of players? Name someone that is 7 foot tall that played point guard at any time in his life. David Robinson is the only one that comes to my mind.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

yakbladder said:


> If you are going to ask for links about his PG days, then yes :biggrin:


Ok here are a few recent ones..

2002 Maryland: Randle and Nicholas lead the team to the title averaging 18pt and 13pts...where are they now?

2000 Michigan State: Mateen Cleaves led MSU...not a very sucessful NBA player.

1998 Kentucky: Led by Scott Padgett, J. Shepard and N. Mohammed...a couple decent NBA players at best. 

1997 Arizona: Led by Miles Simon...no NBA sucess. Yes Bibby did play for AZ the same year but did not lead the team in the tourney. 

1996: UCLA led by Ed O'bannon who was voted tourney's most oustanding player...not much of NBA career to follow.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

graybeard said:


> So were a lot of players? Name someone that is 7 foot tall that played point guard at any time in his life. David Robinson is the only one that comes to my mind.


Many players play PG or SG in their younger years before they hit growth spurts which obviously cause them to grow out of their positions and into PF / Center type bodies.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

tlong said:


> My response to this would be that all of the top pick candidates in this year's draft, except Bargnani, had the same opportunity *yet they didn't get it done*. The talent level on Florida was basically equal to several other teams in the tournament so that leads me to believe that Noah is pretty damn good.


Or Florida simply played better as a team then UCLA. Better team defense, less turnovers, better FT shooting. Noah did not have a dominant enough of a performance IMO to attribute FL's victory to his play. FL was a well balanced team who played solid team b-ball, that brought them the win IMO. If Noah was so dominant as you suggest then he would have averaged more then 24 minutes per game.


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## tlong (Jan 6, 2003)

sa1177 said:


> Or Florida simply played better as a team then UCLA. Better team defense, less turnovers, better FT shooting. Noah did not have a dominant enough of a performance IMO to attribute FL's victory to his play. FL was a well balanced team who played solid team b-ball, that brought them the win IMO. If Noah was so dominant as you suggest then he would have averaged more then 24 minutes per game.



You know that he set a tournament record for blocked shots, don't you? That is domination.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

tlong said:


> You know that he set a tournament record for blocked shots, don't you? That is domination.


Woo hoo! highly impressive I agree but you don't spend a # 1 pick on a shotblocker. If we wanted a shotblocker we could just draft Justin Williams from Wyoming who averaged a ridiculous 5.4 Blks a game. And we could likely draft him in the 2nd round.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

sa1177 said:


> Many players play PG or SG in their younger years before they hit growth spurts which obviously cause them to grow out of their positions and into PF / Center type bodies.


 So name me some 7 footers if there are so many. Barkley isn't a 7 footer, Magic could, David Robinson was. I'm not trying to be a smart alec here, I just sincerely want to know what kind of company Noah is in. He seems to be in pretty damned good company here with these guys.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

graybeard said:


> So name me some 7 footers if there are so many. Barkley isn't a 7 footer, Magic could, David Robinson was. I'm not trying to be a smart alec here, I just sincerely want to know what kind of company Noah is in. He seems to be in pretty damned good company here with these guys.


Noah isn't half the player that any of those guys were in college, to mention him in the same breath as them is craziness IMO. If Noah has such great PG skills why did he average only 2.1 asts a game?


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

graybeard said:


> Hap, you're hopeless. Did Clyde have great form on his shot?


clyde, compared to noah, did. clyde compared to jordan, didn't.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

tlong said:


> The fact that Noah led his team to the national title is very substantial to me. I think his detractors do not appreciate this enough.


let me introduce you to sean may.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

graybeard said:


> Not only did Noah used to play guard.... he used to play *POINT* guard. Think about this for awhile, then watch some tapes of him, read this Link Big men with guard skills are damned rare. If you find one that likes physical contact and has the intensity that Noah has it is rare indeed.


Having a big man who can handle the ball and SCORE is one thing. Having a Center who can handle the ball, but has no range and virtually no offensive game doesn't do you any good.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

tlong said:


> The fact that Noah led his team to the national title is very substantial to me. I think his detractors do not appreciate this enough.


Thats a nice slap in the face to Taurean Green, Corey Brewer and Al Horford who will all be playing in the NBA and were just as contributive to that team as Noah.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

sa1177 said:


> Need I list all the star players who have lead their teams to NCAA titles and then been terrible NBA players? Or not even played in the NBA at all.


Mateen Cleaves.....haha


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

Like I said earlier, some people wouldn't know talent if it bit them. If you can't see the major talent that Noah has, consider yourself bitten.


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## Utherhimo (Feb 20, 2005)

tlong wants us to draft THEO number 1!


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

graybeard said:


> Like I said earlier, some people wouldn't know talent if it bit them. If you can't see the major talent that Noah has, consider yourself bitten.


mmmmmmmmm k...

:rofl:

You do realize the point of this board is to discuss things...people will not always agree with you and thus you discuss...not much of a discussion board otherwise.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

sa1177 said:


> Woo hoo! highly impressive I agree but you don't spend a # 1 pick on a shotblocker. If we wanted a shotblocker we could just draft Justin Williams from Wyoming who averaged a ridiculous 5.4 Blks a game. And we could likely draft him in the 2nd round.


As if Williams brings anything close to what Noah brings. Noah is a MUCH more well rounded player than Justin Williams. He reminds me a lot of the all star Rasheed Wallace, with less numbskull in him.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Fork said:


> As if Williams brings anything close to what Noah brings. Noah is a MUCH more well rounded player than Justin Williams. He reminds me a lot of the all star Rasheed Wallace, with less numbskull in him.


And no jumpshot, of course. And a much less developed back-to-the-basket game.

But other than that, he's good.

Ed O.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

Ed O said:


> And no jumpshot, of course. And a much less developed back-to-the-basket game.
> 
> But other than that, he's good.
> 
> Ed O.


well said Ed..beat me to it...


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Ed O said:


> And no jumpshot, of course. And a much less developed back-to-the-basket game.
> 
> But other than that, he's good.
> 
> Ed O.


True, so true.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> True, so true.


 So how could Noah manage to out stat Aldridge in every category per minute? Aldridge has a supposedly developed jump shot.

I suppose Canzano and Quick could have lied when they wrote that Noah was the player the Blazer brass covets, but why why would they do that.

I suppose you guys could know more than the Blazer scouts. But c'mon do you really believe that? Does anyone?

I suppose in all the threads where people asked about which was the best Draft website and the consensus was that Draft Express has the best track record in drafting... that y'all were just lying or joking. Now it comes to light that Draft Express doesn't know what the hell their talking about and if someone wants to know the real scoop on the draft they should just ask y'all.

I suppose every big man that is worth a darn should have a outstanding jumpshot by their sophmore year of college. I mean Joel, Shaq, Rodman, Ruben, Kersey, Moses, Buck etc... were all jump shooting fools.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

Here's a newsflash for ya too. Greg Oden doesn't have a jumpshot either.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

graybeard said:


> Aldridge has a supposedly developed jump shot.


Aldridge has a beautiful J, accurate with an unblockable high release. I don't think he's a superstar, but I bet he's going to be a solid big in the league for years. As a big believer in the importance of interior D, I think quite a bit about Noah's game as well. I only wish Portland was faced with the dilemma of chosing between the those two.

Oden plus Zach and either Aldridge or Noah on a future Blazer frontline... :bsmile: 

STOMP


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

graybeard said:


> So how could Noah manage to out stat Aldridge in every category per minute? Aldridge has a supposedly developed jump shot.
> 
> I suppose Canzano and Quick could have lied when they wrote that Noah was the player the Blazer brass covets, but why why would they do that.
> 
> ...



A.) I never mentioned LeMarcus Aldridge at all, mainly because I think just like Noah he's not that good of a prospect.

B.) Yeah, because Canzano and Quick have never made up things :laugh: Canzano's new flavor of the week is Randy Foye!

In fact, I think with the current situation between management and the Oregonian we have just as much insight as they do. 

C.) How do you know what the Blazers scouts know? I doubt anybody outside of employees of the organization know whether the Blazers like Noah or not. I haven't seen any indication that they were interested in him other than when Quick mentioned it in a chat a week after it happened and then his crony Canzano ran with it.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

Hey zags, did you ever hear of any of the blazer brass deny that they covet Noah? Nash made it very clear that he couldn't contact Noah. Don't you think that if it weren't true that he would have said so?


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

graybeard said:


> Here's a newsflash for ya too. Greg Oden doesn't have a jumpshot either.


I don't know why you have such a hard-on about Noah, but your point has nothing to do with whether Noah's game resembles Rasheed Wallace's or not.

Ed O.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

graybeard said:


> Hey zags, did you ever hear of any of the blazer brass deny that they covet Noah? Nash made it very clear that he couldn't contact Noah. *Don't you think that if it weren't true that he would have said so?*


Why would they need to deny that they like any kind of player?....

Do you think the Blazers management sends out a list to the media of who they like and who they don't like a month before the draft?

A: No.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

sa1177 said:


> I somewhat agree yet I would be quick to also point out that it's happened many times before. Some people here wanted to pick Joakim Noah at #1 just for his play in the NCAA tourney.


 Ed, what the hell are you talking about? Who mentioned Rasheed? I certainly didn't in this thread.

sa1177 started this when he made the deragatory statement that some of us wanted Noah just because he had a good tourney. The truth is that Noah outplayed the arguably consensus #1 pick Aldridge all year long. 
Then zags starts in with his paranoid crap about the Oregonian writers. He can dispute Canzano and Quick's opinion all he wants without argument from me. But when he starts the paranoid stuff about not being able to trust facts such as what the blazer brass tells us... he's all wet, because that can be proven. The blazers would have denied in pronto if it weren't true.

And as for the hard on... I'm an old man, you use that term loosely. You'll learn more than you want to know about that when you're about 60 years old. I've been a serious NBA fan since the mid 60's. I think I've learned a few things about players in that time, although it's obvious that I don't know as much as some of these 20 something year olds.


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## Tince (Jul 11, 2004)

Can't we all just get along?


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

> Then zags starts in with his paranoid crap about the Oregonian writers. He can dispute Canzano and Quick's opinion all he wants without argument from me. But when he starts the paranoid stuff about not being able to trust facts such as what the blazer brass tells us... he's all wet, because that can be proven. The blazers would have denied in pronto if it weren't true.


What? 

Give me a link to anywhere that you can show that the Blazers WERE interested in him with our top pick....

Until you can give it to me I won't believe Canzano or Quick....What have they ever done to make us The Fan want to believe them?....They had no quotes in their articles about him or anything....Its kinda silly that you bought into it...


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

graybeard said:


> Ed, what the hell are you talking about? Who mentioned Rasheed? I certainly didn't in this thread.


Post #76: I respond to Fork's comparison of Noah to Rasheed, noting that Noah doesn't have a jumper (unlike Rasheed, being the point).

Post #78: zags agrees with me.

Post #79: You respond to zags's post.

Post #80: You note that Oden doesn't have a jumper, either.

Nobody's comparing Oden to Rasheed, so Oden's jumper doesn't really matter. Of course, Oden is much bigger and stronger than Noah, as well, and Oden's about three years younger than Noah, so comparing those two at all isn't something that Noah fans should be eager to do.

Ed O.


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## blue32 (Jan 13, 2006)

ouch my head hurts.


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## yakbladder (Sep 13, 2003)

From Roy to Noah to Oden to Rasheed to Oden to Noah to Roy.

The cycle of life is now complete, and apparently Rasheed is the center of life itself.

Mods, please close this thread.

Mods, please build giant ark.

Mods, please end world.

I think several people on this thread are dubious and guilty of the same thing they rant about on other threads, which is picking apart a player, facet by facet. At soon as one is disproved, or a counter-point is provided, then another issue pops up. Well, quit supplying problems and start supplying solutions.

I just had to get that out before the end of the world. Thanks.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Why even have threads, yak, if issues are instantly solved?

Ed O.


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## e_blazer1 (Feb 3, 2004)

yakbladder said:


> The cycle of life is now complete, and apparently Rasheed is the center of life itself.


Well duh, yak. The guy does have a big-***ed sun tatooed on his shoulder.


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## e_blazer1 (Feb 3, 2004)

Ed O said:


> Why even have threads, yak, if issues are instantly solved?
> 
> Ed O.


Or, perhaps, why even have certain threads if some issues are never resolved?


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

e_blazer1 said:


> Or, perhaps, why even have certain threads if some issues are never resolved?


It's about the journey, not the destination, my friend.

Ed O.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

It is a moot point people....

Noah won't be in the 2006 draft and he won't be the top pick in the 2007 draft....

Had he been in this draft I think it is reasonable to assume he would have been "in the mix" for the top pick but not guarnateed being the #1 pick....

As for whether POR wanted him at #1...That is nothing more than pure speculation at this point...and it was brought up by the media...not by POR mgmt...and you can't use the "Well they couldn't say anything about him" as some sort of proof that they did in fact want to take him 1st... 

The fact is we will never know....and without any proof of their intentions to take Noah #1...saying they would have taken him is pure conjecture on your part...


Now can we get back to the original topic of this thread? 

Namely how insanely overated Roy is right now? :biggrin:


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

yakbladder said:


> Mods, please close this thread.
> 
> Mods, please build giant ark.
> 
> Mods, please end world.


the first one isn't worth the back-lash it'll get

the 2nd one, I can do.

the 3rd one, I'm working on.


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## yakbladder (Sep 13, 2003)

Ed O said:


> Why even have threads, yak, if issues are instantly solved?
> 
> Ed O.


I've determined, Ed, by writing a highly advanced statistical program in my apparently endless spare time, that the future of the franchise is best served by making decision with the flip of a nickel. Not an ordinary nickel, mind you, but a Buffalo Head nickel, circa 1917.

I think I'm just anxious for the draft.


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## tlong (Jan 6, 2003)

sa1177 said:


> Woo hoo! highly impressive I agree but you don't spend a # 1 pick on a shotblocker. If we wanted a shotblocker we could just draft Justin Williams from Wyoming who averaged a ridiculous 5.4 Blks a game. And we could likely draft him in the 2nd round.


Justin Williams didn't accumulate his statistics during the NCAA tournament. Big difference! That Noah was able to dominate defensively against the best competition in the country is very impressive.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

tlong said:


> Justin Williams didn't accumulate his statistics during the NCAA tournament. Big difference! That Noah was able to dominate defensively against the best competition in the country is very impressive.


One statistitcal category is not worthy of a #1 pick...Just like Morrison is probably not worth a #1 eventhough he dominated scoring.


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

I'm not going to wade in on whether Noah is overrated or not. I'm not a professional scout. But I do think that, logically, the level of competition in the NCAA tournament is better than the average of all the competition a team and a player faces throughout the season (which includes many teams not in the tournament at all). The teams are better. The players are better. The defense is better. The offense is better.

What would have been the statistics of a player like Noah if he'd played the Beavers 5 games in a row, instead of NCAA tournament competition? Probably better than both his season average and his tournament average. 

I think it is fair to give special weight to tournament performance when it is sustained over the course of several games against the best NCAA competition in the country. And likewise, added weight to the tournament stats against that competition. Obviously, guys can hit a hot streak. Obviously, there will be examples of someone who had a great tournament but didn't pan out in the NBA. 

I guess my point is I don't think a player's season-long statistics should necessarily be weighted the same as his tournament statistics, considering the number of games represented and the tough competition (and pressure) getting all the way to the championship.

When the Blazers end up with the 5th pick in the draft next year, Noah may still be available (if he comes out -- maybe he should wait another year). If so, I hope he's better than any of us think!


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## tlong (Jan 6, 2003)

sa1177 said:


> One statistitcal category is not worthy of a #1 pick...Just like Morrison is probably not worth a #1 eventhough he dominated scoring.


Noah led the Gators in scoring and rebounding, and was 3rd in assists over the regular season. He did this while averaging the fewest minutes per game of any starter. He's damn good and would *easily * be the #1 pick in this year's draft.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

tlong said:


> Noah led the Gators in scoring and rebounding, and was 3rd in assists over the regular season. He did this while averaging the fewest minutes per game of any starter. He's damn good and would *easily * be the #1 pick in this year's draft.


Yes he could be the #1 pick in this years draft...no guarantee though, he could just as easily be the #5 pick. 

He certainly won't be in the top 3 next year IMO.


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## 2k (Dec 30, 2005)

If Noah really is a 6'11 Patterson I would rather have Noah then Aldridge.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

2k said:


> If Noah really is a 6'11 Patterson I would rather have Noah then Aldridge.


Aldridge is light years ahead of Noah in talent.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

mediocre man said:


> Aldridge is light years ahead of Noah in talent.



Really?

He certainly didn't show it IMO....


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## tlong (Jan 6, 2003)

mediocre man said:


> Aldridge is light years ahead of Noah in talent.



No way. Noah > Aldridge


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

tlong said:


> No way. Noah > Aldridge


Defense yes...offense no...overall who knows.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

By the way, Draft Express has Noah going 2nd behind Oden in next year's mock. NBA Draft has Noah going 3rd next year. ya, ya, ya, you know more about talent than those guys do...


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

sa1177 said:


> One statistitcal category is not worthy of a #1 pick...Just like Morrison is probably not worth a #1 eventhough he dominated scoring.


It's not as if Noah ONLY blocked shots.

21 pts, 15 rebounds against Villanova.

16 pts, 8 rebounds, 7 assists against S. Alabama.

17 pts, 7 rebounds and 6 assists against Georgetown.

etc, etc, etc

Noah does it all. He dominated in several areas.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

sa1177 said:


> Defense yes...offense no...overall who knows.


Aldridge is better on offense? How so? 

Aldridge: 15 pts in 35 minutes.
Noah: 14.2 pts in 25 minutes.

Aldridge: 57% fg
Noah: 63% fg

Aldridge: 1.44 points per shot
Noah 1.71 points per shot


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

graybeard said:


> By the way, Draft Express has Noah going 2nd behind Oden in next year's mock. NBA Draft has Noah going 3rd next year. ya, ya, ya, you know more talent than those guys do...


Well whooptee dooo! You do realize both those sites have left out at least a couple potential top prospects for 07. O.J. Mayo for example. If you want to talk mock sites take a look at these they show Noah going a bit lower

Mock sites generally don't mean much...it's simply someone posting their own speculation on how a future draft will go. No more no less. So some guys speculate he'll go high and some speculate he'll go low so frankly none of these mean much IMO. 

probasketball.com Noah at #6
collegehoops.net Noah at #6 at best



http://www.collegehoopsnet.com/Draft/2007/
http://probasketball.about.com/od/nbadraft/a/top1002007.htm


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## CanJohno (Feb 11, 2005)

sa1177 said:


> Well whooptee dooo! You do realize both those sites have left out at least a couple potential top prospects for 07. O.J. Mayo for example. If you want to talk mock sites take a look at these they show Noah going a bit lower
> 
> Mock sites generally don't mean much...it's simply someone posting their own speculation on how a future draft will go. No more no less. So some guys speculate he'll go high and some speculate he'll go low so frankly none of these mean much IMO.
> 
> ...



Uhhh, O.J. Mayo, unfortunately--under the current rules--won't be able to enter the draft until 2008.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

CanJohno said:


> Uhhh, O.J. Mayo, unfortunately--under the current rules--won't be able to enter the draft until 2008.


Really? I thought he did qualify for next year...well scratch that I guess. Still I don't see Noah being picked before, Oden, Durant, Young, Wright and possibly Jianlian and McRoberts.


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## CanJohno (Feb 11, 2005)

sa1177 said:


> Really? I thought he did qualify for next year...well scratch that I guess. Still I don't see Noah being picked before, Oden, Durant, Young, Wright and possibly Jianlian and McRoberts.


Yup, he'll *technically* be old enough to enter the draft (he'll be 19 on November 5th), but he won't be "one year removed" from his high school class. And, yeah, it's rather weak sauce--that kid (along with Bill Walker) is an amazing prospect.


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