# Marcus Banks: Top Rookie PG?



## Truth34

Danny Ainge commented after the draft that he thought his top pick, Marcus Banks (#13 overall) of UNLV was the BEST rookie PG in this year's talented crop.

TJ Ford of Milwaukee is playing fairly well, leading his team to a surprising 8-8 start. A look at the head-to-head matchups so far:


Matchup #1--Chicago's Kirk Hinrich (#7 ov) vs. MARCUS BANKS (#13 ov)

Hinrich: 28 min, 3-7 fg, 1-2 3pt, 2 reb, 3 ast, 5 TO, 7 pts
Banks: 17 min, 0-4 fg, 0-1 3pt, 2 reb, 2 ast, 0 TO, 0 pts

Final: Chicago 89, BOSTON 82
Winner, Round 1: Kirk Hinrich



Matchup #2--NJ Zoran Planinic (#22 ov) vs. MARCUS BANKS (#13 OV)

Planinic: 3 min, 0/1 fg, 0 reb, 0 ast, 0 TO, 0 stl, 0 pts
Banks: 28 min, 4/9 fg, 1 reb, 3 ast, 0 TO, 1 stl, 11 pts

Final: New Jersey 94, BOSTON 87
Winner, Round 1: MARCUS BANKS



Matchup #3 Orlando's Reece Gaines (#15 ov) vs. MARCUS BANKS (#13 ov)

Gaines: 4 min, 0-1 fg, 0-0 3pt, 1 reb, 1 ast, 0 stl, 0 TO, 0 pts
Banks: 18 min, 2-4 fg, 0-2 3pt, 2 reb, 3 ast, 2 stl, 6 TO, 4 pts
Banks also blocked a shot (it was Gaines' only attempt)

Final: BOSTON 94, Orlando 92
Winner, Round 1: MARCUS BANKS


Matchup #4--Milwaukee's TJ Ford (#8 ov) vs. MARCUS BANKS (#13 ov)

Ford: 26 min, 2-6 fg, 0-1 3pt, 3 reb, 5 ast, 2 TO, 1 st, 6 pts
Banks: 21 min, 4-8 fg, 1-2 3pt, 4 reb, 4 ast, 3 TO, 1 st, 11 pts

Final: BOSTON 106, Milwaukee 96
Winner, Round 1: MARCUS BANKS


Matchup #5--Milwaukee's TJ Ford (#8 ov) vs. MARCUS BANKS (#13 ov)

Ford: 23 min, 0/1 fg, 3 reb, 4 ast, 1 stl, 4 TO, 0 pts
Banks: 17 min, 2/7 fg, 2 reb, 4 ast, 0 stl, 1 TO, 4 pts
(Banks hit both shots over the diminutive Ford)

Final: Milwaukee 100, BOSTON 94
Winner, Round 2: MARCUS BANKS (Banks leads 2 to 0 in h2h)


Matchup #6--Phoenix's Leandrinho Barbosa (#28 ov) vs. MARCUS BANKS (#13 ov)

Barbosa: 9 min, 2/3 fg, 2 reb, 1 ast, 1 stl, 3 TO, 4 pts
Banks: 14 min, 1/5 fg, 2 reb, 3 ast, 2 stl, 3 TO, 2 pts

Final: Phoenix 110, BOSTON 106
Winner, Round 1: MARCUS BANKS


Matchup #7--Seattle's Luke Ridnour (#14 ov) vs. MARCUS BANKS (#13 ov)

Ridnour: 20 min, 2-7 fg, 2 reb, 1 ast, 2 stl, 2 TO, 8 pts
Banks: 4 min, 0-0 fg, 0 reb, 0 ast, 0 stl, 3 TO, 0 pts

Final: BOSTON 126, Seattle 112
Winner, Round 1: Luke Ridnour


Matchup #8--Utah's Raul Lopez (#24 ov/2001) vs. MARCUS BANKS (#13 ov)

Lopez: 14 min, 1-5 fg, 3 reb, 0 ast, 1 stl, 0 TO, 2 pts
Banks: 21 min, 5-9 fg, 4 reb, 2 ast, 2 stl, 3 TO, 12 pts

Final: Utah 99, BOSTON 96
Winner, Round 1: Marcus Banks (Banks wins series 1-0)


Matchup #9--Phoenix's Leandrinho Barbosa (#28 ov) vs. MARCUS BANKS (#13 ov)

Barbosa: 6 min, 2-4 fg, 0 reb, 0 ast, 1 stl, 0 TO, 0 bk, 4 pts
Banks: 22 min, 3-5 fg, 2 reb, 2 ast, 1 stl, 4 TO, 1 bk, 10 pts

Final: BOSTON 104, Phoenix 102
Winner, Round 2: Marcus Banks (Banks wins series, 2-0)



Matchup#10--Chicago's Kirk Hinrich (#7 ov) vs. MARCUS BANKS (#13 ov)

Hinrich: 43 min, 2-9 fg, 2 reb, 4 ast, 4 stl, 6 TO, 8 pts
Banks: 16 min, 0-4 fg, 3 reb, 3 ast, 2 stl, 1 TO, 0 pts

Final: BOSTON 88, Chicago 77
Winner, Round 2: Marcus Banks (Series Tied, 1-1 in h2h)


Matchup #11--Milwaukee's T.J. Ford (#8 ov) vs. MARCUS BANKS (#13 ov)

Ford: 24 min, 2-3 fg, 1 reb, 4 ast, 2 stl, 6 TO, 8 pts
Banks:22 min, 4-6 fg, 4 reb, 4 ast, 2 stl, 3 TO, 10 pts

Final: Milwaukee 111, BOSTON 103
Winner, Round 3: Marcus Banks (Banks leads 3 to 0 in h2h)


Matchup #12--Washington's Steve Blake (#38 ov) vs. MARCUS BANKS (#13 ov)

Blake: 30 min, 6-11 fg, 1 reb, 5 ast, 2 stl, 4 TO, 17 pts
Banks: 16 min, 0-4 fg, 4 reb, 6 ast, 1 stl, 2 TO, 2 pts

Final: BOSTON 100, Washington 89
Winner, Round 1: Steve Blake


Matchup #13--New Jersey's Zoran Planinic (#22 ov) vs. MARCUS BANKS (#13 ov)

Planinic: 2 min, 2-2 ft, 0 reb, 0 ast, 0 stl, 1 TO, 2 pts
Banks: 23 min, 2-9 fg, 1 reb, 0 ast, 1 stl, 1 TO, 6 pts

FINAL: New Jersey 110, BOSTON 91
Winner, Round 2: (by default) Planinic (h2h tied, 1-1)


Matchup #14--Chicago's Kirk Hinrich (#7 ov) vs. MARCUS BANKS (#13 ov)

Hinrich: 39 min, 7-11 fg, 6-8 3pt, 1 reb, 14 ast, 3 TO, 23 pts
Banks: 25 min, 3-8 fg, 3-3 3 pt, 1 reb, 4 ast, 1 TO, 9 pts

FINAL: Chicago 107, BOSTON 87
Winner, Round 3: Hinrich (Hinrich leads h2h, 2-1) 


Matchup #15--Seattle's Luke Ridnour (#14 ov) vs. MARCUS BANKS (#13 ov)

Ridnour: 25 min, 6-9 fg, 3-3 3pt, 5 ast, 0 TO, 2 stl, 15 pts
Banks: 39 min, 3-11 fg, 0-2 3pt, 6 ast, 1 TO, 1 stl, 6 pts

FINAL: Seattle 108, BOSTON 87
Winner, Round 2: Ridnour (Ridnour wins h2h, 2-0)


Matchup #16--Washington's Steve Blake (#38 ov) vs. MARCUS BANKS (#13 ov)

Blake: 7 min, 1-3 fg, 1 reb, 0 ast, 0 stl, 0 TO, 2 pts
Banks: 22 min, 5-8 fg, 1 reb, 4 ast, 3 stl, 2 TO, 12 pts
(Blake totally ineffective when guarded by D-Block)

FINAL: BOSTON 94, Washington 90
Winner, Round 2: MARCUS BANKS (h2h tied, 1-1)


Matchup #17--Washington's Steve Blake (#38 ov) vs. MARCUS BANKS (#13 ov)

Blake: 7 min, 0-2 fg, 0 reb, 2 ast, 0 stl, 0 TO, 0 pts
Banks: 20 min, 4-7 fg, 3 reb, 6 ast, 2 stl, 4 TO, 8 pts
(Banks awful in first half, great in 2nd, sparked comeback)

FINAL: BOSTON 111, Washington 102
Winner, Round 3: MARCUS BANKS (leads h2h, 2-1)
Series Winners:

Banks vs. Lopez: BANKS
Banks vs. Barbosa: BANKS
Banks vs. Ford: BANKS
Banks vs. Ridnour: Ridnour
Banks vs. Marquis Daniels: Daniels
Banks vs. Blake BANKS


I will keep you posted on these matchups throughout the season. Please tell me your thought's on Ainge's first draft pick.


----------



## texan

tj has imo had a better season than marcus banks so far. that game against boston has been his worst game so far. but mark my words tj ford will be a top 3 pg in his prime and a perrenial all star while marcus banks will be a role player


----------



## Truth34

*OK, that's one opinion*

I agree that Ford is a good player, and will be in the league a long time. 

If I thought you based your opinion on Banks on anything other than the colleges the two guys attended, I'd listen more. Let's see what happens tomorrow night.


----------



## agoo

TJ Ford is having a better year. However, I disagree that Ford will be a top three PG in this league. Banks will be a better player. Also, Ford will not be better than Parker, Arenas, or Nash and Kidd while they're playing and probably three or four future draftees that will be better than Ford. Ford will be a starter for a long time in this league because he's a passing PG, but he wont' be better than Banks when all is said and done.


----------



## chapi

i see many of you are overrating banks. he will be a solid role player, nothing more. right now he is quick and....... well he is quick. no great shot no great handling no great creating for others. 

don't get me wrong he will be ok, very good player playing his role...


----------



## Truth34

*Fire Danny Ainge*

Let's hire chapi as our new GM! He apparently can see into the future.

Banks is more than quick. He gets steals and he has demonstrated the capability to defend, as well as create for others. He could be, at a minimum, a starting PG in this league--perhaps a lot more.

He will not be available to your Bobcats in the expansion draft.


----------



## Premier

> Originally posted by <b>chapi</b>!
> i see many of you are overrating banks. he will be a solid role player, nothing more. right now he is quick and....... well he is quick. no great shot no great handling no great creating for others.
> 
> don't get me wrong he will be ok, very good player playing his role...


You are missing the fact that Marcus Banks will eventually be the player the Celtic's build on. His pullup jumper is deadly and he, along with T.J. Ford, is lightning fast. T.J. Ford is short and that will be to his disadvantage as the league is getting bigger and guards from Europe are at a SF size. Marcus Bank's PG skills and shooting will continue to improve and he will be a great player. As Agoo said, Marcus Banks will be better than T.J. Ford. Quote me on this one. Call the Press. Put it in the Papers. :grinning:


----------



## Truth34

*Banks vs. Ford*

I like what I have seen the last two games from Banks. No regrets getting this guy over ANY other rookie PG.


----------



## reHEATed

wade is better


----------



## Truth34

*Sorry, but I do not consider Wade a PG*

I think he is a natural SG. Thanks, though.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

*Re: Sorry, but I do not consider Wade a PG*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> I think he is a natural SG. Thanks, though.


he's playing PG and will likely play there for much of his career. he's a point guard.


----------



## Truth34

*Please. This is a stupid argument.*

He is only a PG until Miami gets rid of Eddie Jones. He is not a PG in the traditional sense.


----------



## Scinos

I'd like to see a Ridnour vs. Banks match-up. 

Luke is having a pretty nice season for Seattle in the minutes he is getting, he is a great spark off the bench. His offense is good as he can score in a number of ways and create for others. His defense is also very under-rated IMO, he is scrappy and plays his man pretty well. I think Ridnour is more of a pure PG than Banks, but it will be good to see them go head-to-head.

Stats so far:

Ridnour: 15.4 mpg - 5.6 ppg (.392% FG, .381% 3pt FG), 1.1 rpg, 2.3 apg.
Banks: 17.1 mpg - 4.9 ppg (.329% FG, .200% 3pt FG), 1.8 rpg, 2.25 apg.


----------



## shazha

*Re: Fire Danny Ainge*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> Banks is more than quick. He gets steals and he has demonstrated the capability to defend, as well as create for others.


Defend????? Banks plays defence with his hands. He swipes at everything. You know it doesnt matter who quick a guy is if he doesnt play defense with his footwork. 

He has to learn how to stay infront of his defender. Banks does not even know the fundamentals of playing defence. Just watch him.


----------



## reHEATed

*Re: Please. This is a stupid argument.*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> He is only a PG until Miami gets rid of Eddie Jones. He is not a PG in the traditional sense.


traditional sense no he is not. But is Francis a traditional pg? Arenas? Wade has similair game to both of them and he is playing at pg, so should be considered in who is the best rookie pg arguements


----------



## Truth34

*Wade is going to be a very good one*

Great pick by Riley. I wish we had him. The future in Miami would have been bright, but then you signed Lamar Odom :nonono: 

Wade was right up at the top of my list. But Banks is pretty good for a 13 pick.


----------



## Goku

this is my first time on your board, so I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this

Lebron James gave Marcus a great compliment. Said that he (himself) is fast, but Marcus is "lightning quick" and that he used to stay up to 1 oclock in the morning to watch him

just thought you might like to know, you probably already did but whatever. Banks looks solid to me.


----------



## Truth34

*Goku, Welcome to Celtic Nation*

Bienvenidos to Celtic Nation. Thanks for the info on Lebron-Marcus. I actually had not heard that. You are most welcome to enlighten us in the future. Are you a Celtic fan, or Cavs, or what?


----------



## bballin

I remember reading that, it was in the preseason when Banks went straight by Lebron on the first play, or something like that. Funny how Lebron's wrap (as a rookie) rates so highly in my book. Guess we aren't immune to the hype, and the fact that Lebron is actually living up to most of it.


----------



## Goku

thanks Truth

I'm actually a Raps fan. I like Banks, and I thought I'd check out your board. I was also interested to see how you guys felt about Jiri Welsch. I haven't heard anything about how he was playing.

lol, I didn't know the quote was so old. Anyways, Peace


----------



## agoo

> Originally posted by <b>Goku</b>!
> this is my first time on your board, so I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this
> 
> Lebron James gave Marcus a great compliment. Said that he (himself) is fast, but Marcus is "lightning quick" and that he used to stay up to 1 oclock in the morning to watch him
> 
> just thought you might like to know, you probably already did but whatever. Banks looks solid to me.


Welcome to the forum, feel free to stop by and add to the chatter any time.

Now LeBron is a guy who can move quite well, so if he's saying Marcus Banks is "lightning quick," I take that to mean something. Also, the thing where LeBron would stay up late to watch Banks, that's also good to hear. LeBron is the type of guy who wouldn't be watching someone who he couldn't learn something from. The fact that he's staying up late to watch him play, that's good to hear.


----------



## Aurelino

Raul Lopez is very good too.
7.1 ppg, 1.6 rpg, 3.9 apg in 19.5 mpg

40.8%Fg, 86.4%FT


----------



## Premier

> Originally posted by <b>Aurelino</b>!
> Raul Lopez is very good too.
> 7.1 ppg, 1.6 rpg, 3.9 apg in 19.5 mpg
> 
> 40.8%Fg, 86.4%FT


Yeah, those are pretty nice numbers. Was he drafted? In what round?


----------



## hobojoe

Yea, Luke Ridnour has also been better so far this year. :yes:


----------



## Truth34

*Banks needs more minutes*

As long as we are losing games by the dozen, we may as well play Banks more. Hasn't he played well? He had three assists tonight (would have had more if guys hadn't been fouled in the act), and 2 more steals. He looked good. He deserves 20 minutes a game, at least.


----------



## aquaitious

*Re: Banks needs more minutes*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> As long as we are losing games by the dozen, we may as well play Banks more. Hasn't he played well? He had three assists tonight (would have had more if guys hadn't been fouled in the act), and 2 more steals. He looked good. He deserves 20 minutes a game, at least.


He deserves to start. Banks plays very good defense, can score, can make people around him better. He's a PG, James is a fly without a head. 25 minutes per game AT LEAST, but if I were coach I'd give him 30, and give James as little as possible.


----------



## Truth34

*Banks and Welsch*

I like the way Welsch is playing, but I wonder what's up with Banks? Any clues?


----------



## Big John

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> Yea, Luke Ridnour has also been better so far this year. :yes:


Ridnour is a terrible one-on-one defender and doesn't shoot very well. Otherwise, he's a decent player for a 6-1 guy.


----------



## whiterhino

I liked what I saw of Luke Ridnour last night when we played them. He needs to get stronger but I think he'll be a good creator in this league. 
Jiri is becoming very impressive...he's been getting time everywhere and the last few games is coming on strong. I have to admit so far he is WAY better than I thought he would be and is only getting better.
Marcus is a good player but needs to learn and listen to his elders...he will eventually be very good as long as he listens : )


----------



## Premier

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> Ridnour is a terrible one-on-one defender and doesn't shoot very well. Otherwise, he's a decent player for a 6-1 guy.


Ridnour reminds me of a less-skilled John Stockton


----------



## kcchiefs-fan

Banks probably clocks in at third, but he's definitely behind Hinrich and Ford.


----------



## VincentVega

1a. Hinrich -- his play just keeps getting better and better, and his defense is drawing raves around the East. Likely future star.
1b. Ford -- great one night, bad another, still can't shoot a lick from outside layup range but is an amazingly dynamic force on the floor. Likely future star.
3. Banks -- with more experience, he'll be a solid player.
4. Ridnour -- same as Banks; also, can someone please explain to me why Bill Walton wants to have sex with him?
5. Mo Williams -- okay, this really, really surprises me. But then again, I look at the Jazz roster and then at their record, and I get even more confused.

The Dwyane Wade experiment at point guard is pretty much fizzled by now. He's a hell of a player, but he's simply not a point guard. He's a Flip Murray guy with better passing skills, and a future All-Star for sure.

Anyone else feel this rookie class is freakin' loaded? Two legit superstars (LeBron, Carmelo), a solid crop of future All-Stars (Wade, Hayes, Bosh, Hinrich, Ford, Pietrus, Kaman, Cabarkapa, Howard), a nice group of future starters/6th men (Ridnour, Haslem, West, Diaw, Pavlovic, Blake, Kapono, Bogans, Williams, Banks, Elson, etc.) and a lot of question marks that could turn out to be pleasant surprises or great players (Darko, Collison, Sweetney, Ebi, Lampe). Damn. That's a nice rookie class.


----------



## Big John

The question is not who the best rookie pg is now, but who will be the best in two years. My guess is that the best pg in this year's class will be LeBron James, if they keep him there. He sees the floor and is a tremendous passer. No. 2 will be either Ford or Banks.


----------



## Premier

> Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!
> 1a. Hinrich -- his play just keeps getting better and better, and his defense is drawing raves around the East. Likely future star.
> 1b. Ford -- great one night, bad another, still can't shoot a lick from outside layup range but is an amazingly dynamic force on the floor. Likely future star.
> 3. Banks -- with more experience, he'll be a solid player.
> 4. Ridnour -- same as Banks; also, can someone please explain to me why Bill Walton wants to have sex with him?
> 5. Mo Williams -- okay, this really, really surprises me. But then again, I look at the Jazz roster and then at their record, and I get even more confused.
> 
> The Dwyane Wade experiment at point guard is pretty much fizzled by now. He's a hell of a player, but he's simply not a point guard. He's a Flip Murray guy with better passing skills, and a future All-Star for sure.
> 
> Anyone else feel this rookie class is freakin' loaded? Two legit superstars (LeBron, Carmelo), a solid crop of future All-Stars (Wade, Hayes, Bosh, Hinrich, Ford, Pietrus, Kaman, Cabarkapa, Howard), a nice group of future starters/6th men (Ridnour, Haslem, West, Diaw, Pavlovic, Blake, Kapono, Bogans, Williams, Banks, Elson, etc.) and a lot of question marks that could turn out to be pleasant surprises or great players (Darko, Collison, Sweetney, Ebi, Lampe). Damn. That's a nice rookie class.


How about Raul Lopez?


----------



## BleedGreen

Is he a rookie? I thought he was drafted a few years ago...


----------



## VincentVega

Lopez was drafted two years ago.


----------



## aquaitious

Yes he was drafted 2 years ago, but he is a rookie.


----------



## Premier

What's wrong with Jim O'Brien? Marcus Banks got ONLY 4 minutes against Cleveland and he let Mike James play 42 minutes. I know Mike James has been playing adequate as of late, but 42 MINUTES? C'mon. Banks will never develop under O'Brien, as no rookie will. Banks needs atleast 25 mintues per game. I don't know what Banks did to deserve a benching, and I don't care. Banks is our future star and we need to get him some experience. This is out of control. Also regarding playing time, Kendrick got 35 yesterday. Not minutes, but seconds. This is unbelivable. I'd take Kendrick Perkins playing 15 minutes instead of Tony Battie ANY day. Joe Johnson, Kedrick Brown, and soon to be Marcus Banks and Kendrick Perkins failed to develop into their full potential under Jim O'Brien.


----------



## BG7

Forgot Lebron and Wade


----------



## FanOfAll8472

Uh Banks might have had the better game vs Ford twice, but Ford is having the better season. Also, by comparing Banks to another rookie point when they're not going head to head really doesnt make sense to me. 



> The Dwyane Wade experiment at point guard is pretty much fizzled by now. He's a hell of a player, but he's simply not a point guard. He's a Flip Murray guy with better passing skills, and a future All-Star for sure.


What the heck are you talking about?? Wade is still playing point and he is playing darn good right now, now that he's not injured.

It's 
1) LBJ (obviously)
2a) Hinrich...just needs to improve his shooting
2b) Ford...great floor leader, just really small
2c) Wade...finally healthy and doing a nice job rebounding and distributing as well as scoring.
3) Banks
4) Lopez
5) Ridnour


----------



## kcchiefs-fan

> Originally posted by <b>FanOfAll8472</b>!
> Uh Banks might have had the better game vs Ford twice, but Ford is having the better season. Also, by comparing Banks to another rookie point when they're not going head to head really doesnt make sense to me.
> 
> 
> 
> What the heck are you talking about?? Wade is still playing point and he is playing darn good right now, now that he's not injured.
> 
> It's
> 1) LBJ (obviously)
> 2a) Hinrich...just needs to improve his shooting
> 2b) Ford...great floor leader, just really small
> 2c) Wade...finally healthy and doing a nice job rebounding and distributing as well as scoring.
> 3) Banks
> 4) Lopez
> 5) Ridnour


Wade is still starting at point but Alsten's getting a ton of minutes there, overall I think Wade is only getting about 10 minutes at that position. And he's been playing much better now that his PG duties are decreasing. He doesn't look like he's gonna be a PG in this league. This could be a problem with Jones and Butler on the team as well (unless of course Butler continues to get hurt), a deal might be on the way sometime before the deadline. Wade's going to be a fantastic player but I doubt it's at the PG position.


----------



## VincentVega

Exactly, kc. Wade's minutes at PG have been steadily decreasing, and his overall numbers have been steadily increasing. Rafer Alston is logging major minutes at point guard, and Wade will likely not even get any minutes at PG after the break.

He'll be a great player in the League, and his slashing and feel for the game is top notch, but he really needs to work on his shot. He's only shooting 20% from three so far this year.


----------



## Truth34

*Wade is a 2, and so will LeBron*

Let's assume they are both 2 guards.

I think Banks can be better than everyone else; certainly better than Hinrich.


----------



## kcchiefs-fan

*Re: Wade is a 2, and so will LeBron*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> I think Banks can be better than everyone else; certainly better than Hinrich.


I doubt it, but even so, explain yourself as to why you feel this is the case.


----------



## VincentVega

*In my humble opinion (and I've watched both players plenty)........*

Banks has neither the instincts nor shooting ability of Hinrich. He's physically stronger and very explosive, but Hinrich's no slouch either (Hinrich tested out as one of the strongest guards in the draft at the combine -- he bench pressed more than Dwyane Wade -- and he also beat TJ Ford in both sprints and agility tests). It took the country 3 years to figure out that Hinrich was indeed a hell of an athlete in college, so I figure it'll take some time before fans of the League figure it out as well.

Banks will be solid in time, but what separates him (or, rather, what _will_ separate him) from the pack? Court vision, composure, versatility, shooting, ability to lead a team? He'll develop these traits in time, but in the end I simply believe Hinrich has a higher ceiling. Hinrich has shown a natural ability to lead a team so far this season and is getting exponentially better as the season progresses, while Banks is struggling to find playing time after being all but guaranteed the starting spot before the season. Hinrich also combines essentially all of the skills of a SG, and has the versatility to not only play SG at times in the offense, but guard the opposing SG when duty calls as well. He's drawn raves around the league and is already considered one of the East's best defensive guards (see ESPN.com article for more). His scoring is increasing every game (he had 18 last night) as he gets more comfortable in Skiles' new offense.

I'm not saying Banks won't be a good player -- he certainly will be. He'll be a starter before long, and a good one at that. But saying that he'll "certainly" be a better player than Hinrich is pretty silly, IMO.

P.S. Opinions make the world go 'round, and I certainly respect yours, Truth34. I don't mean to sound rude or anything. It's just friendly debate.


----------



## Truth34

*No worries, Vince*

I think Banks will be a very solid ball-hawking defender who can get in the passing lane and get steals and get us on the break. At 6'2", he has the size and quickness, and confidence in himself to be a real force out there. I think he is a better playmaker than Hinrich, and a better shooter and defender than Ford. In time, I think he will be the best.


----------



## Premier

*Re: No worries, Vince*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> I think Banks will be a very solid ball-hawking defender who can get in the passing lane and get steals and get us on the break. At 6'2", he has the size and quickness, and confidence in himself to be a real force out there. I think he is a better playmaker than Hinrich, and a better shooter and defender than Ford. In time, I think he will be the best.


Exactly, Banks can lead the fast break as well as any rookie. He just needs to make better choices. Banks is faster than Ford and can be a better point guard than Hinrich. Although, Hinrich shoots much better than Banks, but Banks has all the physical tools to become a great player.


----------



## Truth34

*Banks vs. Utah*

An encouraging game. I thought he frustrated Arroyo and showed a nice spark that helped us get back in the game. If only the other guys had played defense.


----------



## Critic

*Re: Re: No worries, Vince*



> Originally posted by <b>Celts11</b>!
> 
> 
> Banks is faster than Ford and can be a better point guard than Hinrich.


HAHA
Are you serious???
If you are...WRONG!
I agree that he will be a better player...but he's not faster than TJ Ford. Ford is one of the very quickest players in the whole sport of basketball....not just the NBA.


----------



## Premier

*Re: Re: Re: No worries, Vince*



> Originally posted by <b>Critic</b>!
> 
> 
> HAHA
> Are you serious???
> If you are...WRONG!
> I agree that he will be a better player...but he's not faster than TJ Ford. Ford is one of the very quickest players in the whole sport of basketball....not just the NBA.


Banks is faster than Ford. Before the draft the tested the players and Banks was faster. You haven't seen Banks in Boston. He can lead the break as fast as anybody.


----------



## whiterhino

Banks is very very very fast. I think he's very talented, makes some bad decisions but that is typical of rookies and he will hopefully learn. My major worry is, is he willing to learn. Something tells me he may have a chip on his shoulder and not listen as much as he should. There has already been a discipline issue with him. So I guess what I'm saying is my major concern about Marcus Banks is not his talent, that he has, it's his lack of maturity. He needs to mature or OB is not gonna play him and to that point I understand because a coach has to demand authority to himself. I've seen Marcus kind of shrug off Pierce and Vinny and others when trying to offer advice and I voiced before that it sent a red flag up with me. That stated, he is very young so I'm thinking he will change quickly, but we lost a lot of leadership on this team this year and are young in general so I hope that doesn't hinder his maturity development. He has the talent to be a very very good point guard in this league, it's up to him if he becomes one or not. I do not think he's at the level of Hinrich, Ford, Lopez, or even Ridnour right now because he's too out of control but I think he could be just as good if not better than all of them someday if he keeps his head on straight and listens.


----------



## FanOfAll8472

*Re: Re: Re: Re: No worries, Vince*



> Originally posted by <b>Celts11</b>!
> 
> 
> Banks is faster than Ford. Before the draft the tested the players and Banks was faster. You haven't seen Banks in Boston. He can lead the break as fast as anybody.


it's pretty much common knowledge that timed speed tests are misleading. on the floor, ford is faster with the ball.


----------



## rebelsun

Guys, I watched Marcus for 2 years at UNLV. While he is obviously not the best PG this year, he might well have the most potential. 

He is 6'2, very strong, lightning fast, fearless taking it to the hoop, is an excellent defender. He is not a natural pass-first PG. His game is taking his man off the dribbble, going to the hoop, and drawing the foul. His shot needs work, and it will take time to adjust to the NBA PG position, but he has the natural skills to become a superstar.

He also comes from a basketball family, his dad Freddie Banks played w/ UNLV in the late 70's, and in the NBA. He is also one of the most confident players you'll ever meet.

"When I'm on the court, I feel that no one can stop me."

Marcus can basically be as good as Marcus wants.


----------



## Big John

> "When I'm on the court, I feel that no one can stop me."


Except himself, as he demonstrated this evening against Philly.


----------



## theBirdman

> Originally posted by <b>whiterhino</b>!
> My major worry is, is he willing to learn. Something tells me he may have a chip on his shoulder and not listen as much as he should. There has already been a discipline issue with him. So I guess what I'm saying is my major concern about Marcus Banks is not his talent, that he has, it's his lack of maturity. He needs to mature or OB is not gonna play him and to that point I understand because a coach has to demand authority to himself.


I agree! But his family is coming to Boston in january which should help! It is always nice to have some familiar faces waiting for you at home after the game.


----------



## agoo

> Originally posted by <b>theBirdman</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree! But his family is coming to Boston in january which should help! It is always nice to have some familiar faces waiting for you at home after the game.


And maybe they'll come to the game and bring orange slices and juice for the rest of the boys.

The thing that is going to help Marcus Banks is time on the floor. O'Brien should put out a fivesome of Banks, Welsch, Davis, McCarty, and Mihm for 15 minutes a game and just let them run. Those five on the floor together would have killed that slow Philly team last night and given the game some excitement. The first three quarters of that game were awful.


----------



## Premier

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No worries, Vince*



> Originally posted by <b>FanOfAll8472</b>!
> 
> 
> it's pretty much common knowledge that timed speed tests are misleading. on the floor, ford is faster with the ball.


I'm assuming you haven't watched Banks with the ball, he can lead a break as fast as anybody in the league.


----------



## rebelsun

I hope nobody confuses speed and acceleration. Banks, BD, Marbury have the muscle to explode. They are fast, but they are also explosive. Ford is quick, but in the halfcourt, he is less effective by himself because of his lack of explosiveness. Having both enables a player to be effective on the break and in the half.


----------



## Truth34

*Speed*

I'll concede that Ford MIGHT be quicker with the ball, but what is he 5'8"? Banks is bigger and stronger and has the potential to be better than all of those fools. Nice pick, Danny! Now bring him along slowly. He has to learn, and he needs a little more discipline. 

I loved the orange slices line. :laugh:


----------



## Bad Bartons

*Marcus Banks*

I am a Celtics fan who thought that we should try to get Luke Ridnour or Kirk Hinrich instead of Banks. I was not familiar with Banks so I was just wanting to get a guy that I knew would help us. I still think Ridnour is going to be a very good point guard in the NBA and is having a good season so far in Seattle.

The original question here is "Is Marcus Banks the best rookie point guard?"

I think in terms of potential Banks has the athletic tools to be much greater than any of the other point guards (including T J Ford). However, Banks is far behind both Ford and Ridnour in terms of understanding how to play the point position. Banks reminds me of Gary Payton. Payton left OSU as the big man on campus and maybe the greatest ever from OSU. He was everything for the Beavers. Banks had the same kind of two years for the UNLV Rebels. Neither of these guys understood how to use their entire team to win games (ala Magic Johnson). They only knew how to win on their own. Payton has grown into a phenomenal point guard in the NBA. Will Marcus be able to grow as Gary did?

So far I am impressed with Marcus's explosive burst to the basket. He is then, however, missing alot of easy shots. He is also not driving and dishing like he should. He is still getting too many turnovers. He is playing good man to man defense for a rookie. He is having trouble setting up teammates for easy shots so he is not getting enough assists. Overall, Banks is becoming the Celtics third option at the point behind Mike James and Jiri Welsch. His future in this league does not depend on what he does this season. His future will depend on how he responds to his failures and improves upon his weaknesses in the off season. He has a guarranteed three years. If he cannot pick up the NBA game by then he will be gone.


----------



## Bball4me

> Banks is faster than Ford. Before the draft the tested the players and Banks was faster. You haven't seen Banks in Boston. He can lead the break as fast as anybody.


I don't know where this came from. 
Yes, players are tested at the NBA predraft camp, but Marcus Banks wasn't one of them. He chose not to attend.
FWIW, Hinrich beat Ford in both the 3/4 court sprint and the lane agility tests.
I wouldn't be sleeping on him. Hinrich has been playing some big time minutes and has been producing. He's already had some double digit assist games, so it's obvious he's a good play maker.


----------



## Premier

> Originally posted by <b>Bball4me</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't know where this came from.
> Yes, players are tested at the NBA predraft camp, but Marcus Banks wasn't one of them. He chose not to attend.
> FWIW, Hinrich beat Ford in both the 3/4 court sprint and the lane agility tests.
> I wouldn't be sleeping on him. Hinrich has been playing some big time minutes and has been producing. He's already had some double digit assist games, so it's obvious he's a good play maker.


Not in the Predraft camp...In Boston's private workout. Some other team did the same test and Banks was faster...I think it was full court sprints.


----------



## Rashidi

Best rookie PG? Have you guys forgotten about a guy named Lebron?


----------



## Truth34

*LeBron is great*

And he'll make a great guard in the league. I put him in the category of Dwayne Wade of MIA, a future star who plays PG, but also plays SG, and will eventually rotate to the 2.


----------



## girlygirl

If you include LeBron James and Dwyane Wade as point guards, then obviously those two have proven to be the best all-around rookies at this position so far.

Excluding those two, I would say the following:

1. Kirk Hinrich - has really come on of late, and is now averaging 10.1 PPG and 5.6 APG. He and Ridnour are the best shooters among the rookie PGs. He has five games this season with 10 or more assists and is being touted by his coach as one of the best defensive guards in the conference.

2. T.J. Ford - still can't shoot worth a damn (35%), but pushes the ball about as well as any PG in the league and gets his teammates involved very well. Leads all rookies in assists (6.7 APG) and has an A/TO ratio of well above 2:1. Struggles on defense because of his size, but can be disruptive because of his quickness and ability to get into the passing lanes.

3. Raul Lopez - has done a very nice job either backing up Carlos Arroyo or (when Arroyo is hurt) starting for the Jazz. Good shooter, runs the offense well. Not a great defender. Despite his two knee injuries, is still pretty quick

4. Luke Ridnour - his minutes vary wildly, and he isn't doing as good a job distributing the ball as I thought he would. But he has shown the ability to get into the lane and kick the ball back out to Seattle's stable of shooters. His own shooting has been better of late (although was 0-for last night). As expected, struggles on defense

5. Steve Blake - did a pretty good job filling in for Gilbert Arenas. Has a good understanding of the Wizards' offense. As in college, has proven to be a pest on defense and has been a much better distributor than shooter. 


Banks could turn out to be better than most of these guys as their careers go on, but right now there isn't any way I could put him ahead of any of those I've listed. Some games he barely gets off the bench! To be honest, I thought he would have beaten Mike James out for the starting job by now, but it hasn't happened. I also don't like the fact that his A/TO ratio is basically 1:1, which is awful for a point guard. Still, he and Ford are blurs, and I like the way he can push the ball on offense and disrupt the opposition on defense. If he can become more consistent, he might be up there with Hinrich and Ford by the end of the season.


----------



## Truth34

*Banks not starting irrelevant*

I'm not sure Steve Blake would start over Mike James or Jiri Welsch at PG, let alone Banks. That is ridiculous. Hinrich was awful in the game I saw last night, and Banks gets the nod in what was for him, a bad performance. But Hinrich had 6 TOs and his team only shot 33%. Give me Banks over him and anyone else except maybe Ford.


----------



## Medvedenko4Life

MARCUS BANKS IS GARBAGE............JOHN CROTTY IS BETTER THAN MARVUS BANKS!!!!


----------



## Truth34

*Hey, Laker boy*

I'm sorry Keyon Dooling rejected Gary Payton and ruined your night, but don't opine on things you have no clue about. Banks is inconsistent, but he has high potential.


----------



## Medvedenko4Life

High pottential usually means nothing.....he was traded for troy bell, who isnt doing any better....but i saw him in summer league, and that is true pottential.


----------



## Truth34

*We agree*

Potential doesn't mean JACK. But Banks is a rookie, and we'll have to see. If you look at the head to head matchups, PG1, you'll see that he is holding his own. Some of the point guards on lesser teams play more, but Banks only gets about 16 minutes a game.


----------



## Medvedenko4Life

yea i guess.i mean its not bank's fault that mike james is playing a lot better then he really is.


----------



## Premier

> Originally posted by <b>Medvedenko4Life</b>!
> yea i guess.i mean its not bank's fault that mike james is playing a lot better then he really is.


When Banks is leading the break, Banks is far better than James. It's not Bank's fault Obie has to bench rookies.


----------



## Richie Rich

> Originally posted by <b>Celts11</b>! It's not Bank's fault Obie has to bench rookies.








:|


----------



## deranged40

I would definitely have to place Kirk Hinrich and TJ Ford above Marcus Banks as the top rookie point guard.


----------



## Medvedenko4Life

Luke walton is a better ball handler then banks.


----------



## Premier

> Originally posted by <b>Medvedenko4Life</b>!
> Luke walton is a better ball handler then banks.


A better PASSER, not ball handler.


----------



## whiterhino

> Originally posted by <b>Medvedenko4Life</b>!
> High pottential usually means nothing.....he was traded for troy bell, who isnt doing any better....but i saw him in summer league, and that is true pottential.


[strike]EARTH TO LAKER BOY! Marcus Banks was NEVER NEVER EVER traded for Troy Bell. If you don't have a clue don't post. The Celtics made a deal with the Grizzlies to swap their picks so the Celtics could move up in the draft.....to SELECT Banks. The Grizzlies announced the selection of Banks but they were picking for the Celtics and taking who Danny Ainge told them to. Then when the 16th pick came up the Celtics selected Troy Bell FOR THE GRIZZLIES, DUH GET A CLUE!!!:upset:[/strike]

Calm yourself, then post. No baiting. ---agoo


----------



## Starbury03

What kind of stupid argument is that they where basically traded for each other. I like both players alot so I'm not taking side but also did see Bell in Summer league and he did look very good.


----------



## rebelsun

Bell is more polished right now, but Banks has more upside.


----------



## deranged40

Troy Bell is better than Marcus Banks, Celtic fans that want to see Banks get 30 minutes a game are fans that want the Celtics to lose.


----------



## Richie Rich

> Originally posted by <b>deranged40</b>!
> Troy Bell is better than Marcus Banks, Celtic fans that want to see Banks get 30 minutes a game are fans that want the Celtics to lose.








No we want Banks to develop.


----------



## deranged40

Into what, a 6th-Man of the Year candidate? He's for sure never gonna be worth anything as a starter.


----------



## Premier

> Originally posted by <b>deranged40</b>!
> Troy Bell is better than Marcus Banks, Celtic fans that want to see Banks get 30 minutes a game are fans that want the Celtics to lose.


Now I wouldn't say which one is better. It's to early to tell. I've watched Bell for his collegiate career in BC. He runs the perimeter offense and is a scoring PG. He thinks shot first pass second. He is a great shooter, but he is streaky. Banks runs the fast break. He passes first and shoots the pullup jump shot off the break. Bell is a Stephon Marbury type player. He is going to be good once given a chance. The same can be said about Banks. I want Banks to get 30 minutes a game because he is a very important part of our future.


----------



## Premier

> Originally posted by <b>deranged40</b>!
> Into what, a 6th-Man of the Year candidate? He's for sure never gonna be worth anything as a starter.


He's gotten...what...15.5 minutes per game. You can't judge him on that in his rookie season.


----------



## deranged40

Yeah and in his 15.5 mpg he shows me he sucks and has no business in the NBA, maybe the NBDL or Europe if he's lucky.


----------



## aquaitious

> Originally posted by <b>deranged40</b>!
> Yeah and in his 15.5 mpg he shows me he sucks and has no business in the NBA, maybe the NBDL or Europe if he's lucky.


Well you can pray for that, but it won't happen, this guy will be starting for the Celtics very soon.


----------



## deranged40

Only because the Celtics have no hope of making the playoffs, and with him as the starting PG they have no hope for the future either.


----------



## Big John

> Originally posted by <b>deranged40</b>!
> Only because the Celtics have no hope of making the playoffs, and with him as the starting PG they have no hope for the future either.


You don't know what you are talking about. I've been one of Banks' biggest critics here but he has improved, particularly on defense. He still has alot to learn, but IMHO Banks has more potential than any rookie point guard in the league-- and that includes Hinrich and Ford.


----------



## deranged40

Hahahahaha.... I'm just joking with you guys because I know how devoted you Boston fans are, but I expected far more of a firestorm than what I got. I've never actually seen Banks play so I can't judge him, but to say he's the BEST ROOKIE PG is slightly absurd. As for him having more potential than any PG in this draft, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'll believe it when I see it. Like I said I haven't seen him play so I don't really have an opinion right now. But I'm a Celtics fan as well (though not as hardcore as most of you are) and I hope Banks turns out to be a good player. However, I'd like to know why Paul Pierce is viewed as Public Enemy #1 on this board.


----------



## lastlaugh

Paul is not public enemy number 1. Some of us just don't think he is perfect and it is about time that someone called him on the mistakes he was making instead of blaming Walter Mcarty and
Vin Baker.



> Originally posted by <b>deranged40</b>!
> Hahahahaha.... I'm just joking with you guys because I know how devoted you Boston fans are, but I expected far more of a firestorm than what I got. I've never actually seen Banks play so I can't judge him, but to say he's the BEST ROOKIE PG is slightly absurd. As for him having more potential than any PG in this draft, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'll believe it when I see it. Like I said I haven't seen him play so I don't really have an opinion right now. But I'm a Celtics fan as well (though not as hardcore as most of you are) and I hope Banks turns out to be a good player. However, I'd like to know why Paul Pierce is viewed as Public Enemy #1 on this board.


----------



## Big John

> Originally posted by <b>deranged40</b>!
> I've never actually seen Banks play so I can't judge him, but to say he's the BEST ROOKIE PG is slightly absurd.


No, what's slightly absurd is you coming over here and giving us your learned opinions about a player you admit you have never seen.


----------



## deranged40

What learned opinions? The ones I stated in my first messages then promptly refuted and explained as jokes? The only true opinion I stated was that I don't believe he is the best rookie PG, and I have yet to see one person reveal telling evidence of why he is the best PG. [strike]If you can't take a joke and take offense to something as harmless as that I suggest you take a little time off the boards and re-sort your priorities in life.[/strike]

Welcome, but we don't post like that here. ---agoo


----------



## rebelsun

> Originally posted by <b>deranged40</b>!
> Into what, a 6th-Man of the Year candidate? He's for sure never gonna be worth anything as a starter.


He's not ready to start; you want to destroy his confidence and for the Celtics to lose?


----------



## Truth34

*Banks vs. Orlando*

Played OK in spots tonight....If he can hit that pull-up 15 footer with consistency, he'll be deadly. He even blew by Tyronn Lue.


----------



## VincentVega

Excluding LeBron and Wade (who is a SG), this is how I see it:

At the current time:
1. Hinrich
2. Ford
3. Barbosa
4. Lopez
5. Ridnour
6. Blake
7. Banks

In three years:
1a. Hinrich
1b. Barbosa
2a. Ford
2b. Banks
3. Lopez
4. Ridnour
5. Blake

Whatever the case, this crop of rookie PG's is tremendous. 7th right now is not a slight in any way. Banks just needs more experience and PT.


----------



## Truth34

*Marcus's minutes are creeping up slowly....*

And in the three games against Milwaukee, if you look at the stats (first post), and if you saw the games, it is not tough to see that Marcus could be at least as good, if not better, than Ford.


----------



## aquaitious

*Re: Marcus's minutes are creeping up slowly....*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> And in the three games against Milwaukee, if you look at the stats (first post), and if you saw the games, it is not tough to see that Marcus could be at least as good, if not better, than Ford.


Banks has played some pretty nice defense on Ford tonight.


----------



## VincentVega

Hinrich posted his fourth double-double of the season tonight, going for 19 points and 12 assists vs. the Pistons.

Barbosa keeps on putting up solid numbers with his PT.

Banks outplayed Ford tonight and is showing major promise with increased PT.

Ridnour's minutes seem to be going down.


----------



## whiterhino

I think right now Hinrich & Barbosa are the cream of the crop, some of the others like Ford, Ridnour, Blake and Banks have a lot of promise but they are not at the level of Hinrich and Barbosa right now, not to say they won't be someday though.


----------



## Truth34

*Banks horrible tonight*

Wow! This is the first time I've seen Blake since Maryland. He played really well. Banks sucked. Score one for Blake tonight. Apparently, it comes and goes with Marcus. He was much better for like 6 games, and now he's been poor for 3.


----------



## adarsh1

*Blake is better than Banks!*

See the game fools!Well Wizards lost but still


----------



## aquaitious

In his defense, he has tied his career high in assists today.


----------



## compsciguy78

> Originally posted by <b>whiterhino</b>!
> I think right now Hinrich & Barbosa are the cream of the crop, some of the others like Ford, Ridnour, Blake and Banks have a lot of promise but they are not at the level of Hinrich and Barbosa right now, not to say they won't be someday though.


Barbosa? He is good player, but he is nowhere near Ford right now. I can't believe Barbosa is even listed near the top because his assist turnover ratio is terrible, and in order to be good PG you have to have at least a decent A/T ratio. 

Hinrich and Ford would be my top picks for PG right now. Then you could throw in Ridnour, Banks, Blake, Barbosa, Lopez, and anyone else.

I still give the edge to Ford, just because he can create for others better than any of these PG's ever will. This is EVER!!! Barbosa might be quick, but he doesn't have to court vision Ford has. Ridnour, Hinrich, Blake have good traditional PG games, but Ford is the true PG that has all the intangibles. Once he develops a consistent jumper, he will be the best PG in this draft, hands down. Might take a few years, but it will happen. From beginning to midway, TJ has been best rookie PG(if you don't count Lebron as PG).


----------



## Truth34

*LeBron as PG?*

No, I don't count LeBron as a point guard, and apparently neither does Paul Silas. He's ending the PG experiment starting tomorrow. LeBron is being moved to SG from now on.


----------



## Big John

> Originally posted by <b>compsciguy78</b>!
> 
> 
> Barbosa? He is good player, but he is nowhere near Ford right now. I can't believe Barbosa is even listed near the top because his assist turnover ratio is terrible, and in order to be good PG you have to have at least a decent A/T ratio.


I respectfully disagree. The two best point guards to come out of this draft will be Barbosa and Banks. Ford will have an ok career, but he's not a scorer, and people will figure that out. The third best pg in this draft may be Steve Blake. Yes, you heard me right.

Hinrich will be a distant 4th. Ridnour will be out of the league in 2 years because he's fragile and can't defend.


----------



## compsciguy78

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> I respectfully disagree. The two best point guards to come out of this draft will be Barbosa and Banks. Ford will have an ok career, but he's not a scorer, and people will figure that out. The third best pg in this draft may be Steve Blake. Yes, you heard me right.
> 
> Hinrich will be a distant 4th. Ridnour will be out of the league in 2 years because he's fragile and can't defend.


I wish we could make a bet on this, but we can't. Is there anyway we can keep this thread for future purposes. There is no way Barbosa is going to be better than Ford. You don't have to be a scorer to shoot the basketball. He can get so wide open that all he needs a decent 18 foot jumper to be effective. Ford will be able to score when he needs too. 

Ridnour will be out of the league in two years? There is no way that is happening!! Is anyone else reading this? Ridnour can't play good defense, but neither can a lot of the backup and starting PG's. Nash, Kidd, Parker...these guys aren't good defenders. Ridnour has enough skills where, unless he gets hurt, he will be in the league for 10-12 years.

I respect you're opinions, but everything you said is contradictory to what this season has shown so far. You are basically saying just to forget what happened this season because the guys who were successful are flukes, and the guys who haven't done well are going to be top PG's. 

I like Marcus Banks, and he will be a good PG, but I don't think Ford, Hinrich, and Ridnour are going anywhere. As far as Steve Blake goes, he will do alright, but I would no way put him above Hinrich or Ford.


----------



## RP McMurphy

> Originally posted by <b>compsciguy78</b>!
> 
> Ridnour can't play good defense, but neither can a lot of the backup and starting PG's. Nash, *Kidd*, Parker...these guys aren't good defenders. Ridnour has enough skills where, unless he gets hurt, he will be in the league for 10-12 years.


Jason Kidd All-Defensive Selections:

2002-03 All-Defensive, 2nd Team
2001-02 All-Defensive, 1st Team
2000-01 All-Defensive, 1st Team
1999-00 All-Defensive, 2nd Team
1998-99 All-Defensive, 1st Team

Jason Kidd, steals per game:

2002-03, 2.24 per game (5th in NBA)
2001-02, 2.13 per game (3rd in NBA)
2000-01, 2.16 per game (4th in NBA)
1999-00, 2.00 per game (6th in NBA)
1998-99, 2.28 per game (4th in NBA)
1997-98, 1.98 per game (7th in NBA)

I'd say he's one of the very best defensive guards in the game, if not THE best.

As for Ridnour, he is a horrible shooter at 37 percent, and he can't penetrate or create nearly as well as those three PG's you named. He is just the third guard off the bench for Seattle, behind career backup Antonio Daniels. The Sonics' guards have not been healthy all year so Ridnour has played in a reserve role, but in their last 9 games he has averaged just 4.6 minutes per game. A couple more years of that and no doubt he'll be out of the league, teams would rather take a chance on a young guy with upside than sign a below average 10th man like Luke Ridnour.


----------



## VincentVega

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> I respectfully disagree. The two best point guards to come out of this draft will be Barbosa and Banks. Ford will have an ok career, but he's not a scorer, and people will figure that out. The third best pg in this draft may be Steve Blake. Yes, you heard me right.
> 
> Hinrich will be a distant 4th. Ridnour will be out of the league in 2 years because he's fragile and can't defend.


Unbelievable. Absolutely unbelievable.

1. Hinrich
2a. Barbosa
2b. Ford
3. Banks
4. Lopez
5. Blake
6. Ridnour
7. Bell (if he's even in the league in two years)


----------



## Richie Rich

You can't even argue this becasue noone knows what will happen in the future. One guy could get injured, another could be the diamond in the rough, etc.


----------



## rebelsun

I love my boy Marcus, but there is no better rookie point right now than Hinrich. Barbosa and Banks have the most upside of the rest. I really wonder how much upside TJ and Luke have.


----------



## sportsfan

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> Ford will have an ok career, but he's not a scorer, and people will figure that out.


Everyone already knows it, they knew it before the draft as it was the biggest knock on him going in.
But most importantly, TJ knows it. He knows his #1 job is to run the offense and distribute the ball. With Redd, Mason, and Thomas on the team he doesn't need to be a scorer. Plus there's the chance his shooting will improve (compare Kidd early in his career vs. now). 
He's averaging almost as many assists (6.4) as FGA (a little under 8) and Milwaukee is one of the top surprises in the league. Finally, as a PG who will have the ball in his hands at the end of the game I feel the most important shooting % for him will be FT's, and right now he's just a hair under 83%.
If the Bucks keep playing like this I have NO problem with Ford scoring 7 or 8 PPG.....


----------



## Truth34

*Hinrich much better than Banks*

Well, Hinrich looks better than Banks right now.


----------



## VincentVega

*Re: Hinrich much better than Banks*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> Well, Hinrich looks better than Banks right now.


I'm not sure 23 points, 6-8 from downtown, 14 assists and 2 steals can even hint at swaying Big John's opinion. After all, Kirk Hinrich will be a monumental bust.

:grinning:


----------



## alex

I really like Kirk Hinrich a lot, but you need to remember that he is two years older than TJ. That being said, TJ has more growth to do, in other words, he is much rawer than Kirk. Do you think Kirk would be as good if he came out as a Sophomore? I think eventually the four best point guards will be TJ and Leandro Barbosa at the very top, with Kirk Hinrich and Marcus Banks a hair below. 

I'm not taking anything away from either, just that they seem to be more finished products after spending four years in college. Think Shane Battier for Kirk, although I think he will proably put up around 16 ppg and 8 apg, while TJ 14 ppg 10 apg 4 rpg 3 spg. As you can see, the stats are very similar.


----------



## Premier

*Re: Banks vs. Orlando*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> Played OK in spots tonight....If he can hit that pull-up 15 footer with consistency, he'll be deadly. He even blew by Tyronn Lue.


Exactly what he did in college. Run with the ball and pull up for a mid-range jumper.


----------



## mavsman

Kirk Hinrich will be a star in this league. I believe he will be the
best point guard to come out of this draft.

After that I see alot of question marks.


----------



## VincentVega

> Originally posted by <b>alex</b>!
> I really like Kirk Hinrich a lot, but you need to remember that he is two years older than TJ. That being said, TJ has more growth to do, in other words, he is much rawer than Kirk. Do you think Kirk would be as good if he came out as a Sophomore?


As a sophomore, Kirk Hinrich set the Big XII and Kansas single-season 3PT% records (50.5% from behind the arc), shot 50.0% from the field and was 6th in the nation in assists as a third/fourth option on offense. Do I think he would have been as good coming out then as I do now? No. But I think he would have been all right.

Both players will continue to improve with experience and added strength. I just think that Kirk can do more things than TJ can, that's all. And not everyone learns how to shoot. Just ask Jacque Vaughn.


----------



## Ron Mexico

I guess the answer is NO!


----------



## goNBAjayhawks

I dont see why ppl talk about Banks as having a huge upside, and how Kirk has no upside. It's either both or none cause they are seperated by less than a year in age and both went to college for the full 4 years. If any of the PG's do its Barbosa, and possibly Ford although shooting isnt always something you learn with time if you've never had it. I think Kirk and Ford will be at the top, but Kirk will be on top and more of the star caus he can shoot and score the ball while still being able to dish and get as many assists as ford. Ford will score more in time but i dont think anything over 12 ppg, but he could possibly reach 10apg. Banks is not a bust but a "PG of the Future" is a piece to the puzzle and someone who can control the team, which is why the C's should go after a PG this year and Give marcus some competition and see whether he sinks or floats.


----------



## whiterhino

> Originally posted by <b>goNBAjayhawks</b>!
> I dont see why ppl talk about Banks as having a huge upside, and how Kirk has no upside. It's either both or none cause they are seperated by less than a year in age and both went to college for the full 4 years. If any of the PG's do its Barbosa, and possibly Ford although shooting isnt always something you learn with time if you've never had it. I think Kirk and Ford will be at the top, but Kirk will be on top and more of the star caus he can shoot and score the ball while still being able to dish and get as many assists as ford. Ford will score more in time but i dont think anything over 12 ppg, but he could possibly reach 10apg. Banks is not a bust but a "PG of the Future" is a piece to the puzzle and someone who can control the team, which is why the C's should go after a PG this year and Give marcus some competition and see whether he sinks or floats.


I agree with that, I like Marcus' "potential" but we all know many never fulfill their potential. I would like to see us draft another top PG and let them fight it out.


----------



## bballin

Kirk i splaying pretty damn well. Banks has a different game and will be effective in a high octane O, Kirk is a "smart" pg and I think will be a welcome adition to any team


----------



## Truth34

*Banks against the Clippers*

Marcus really showed me a lot last night. Very inspiring play down the stretch in a game we could/should have won. More minutes for Marcus?


----------



## aquaitious

*Re: Banks against the Clippers*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> Marcus really showed me a lot last night. Very inspiring play down the stretch in a game we could/should have won. More minutes for Marcus?


More minutes? ****ing start him.  But it doesn't matter what he does, he still will be comming off the bench. Banks has shown a lot last night that is NOT included in the box score.


----------



## Bad Bartons

Looks like Marcus is going to start with Mike James gone.

Unless the C's go with Jiri and Davis in the backcourt.


----------



## aquaitious

> Originally posted by <b>Bad Bartons</b>!
> Looks like Marcus is going to start with Mike James gone.
> 
> Unless the C's go with Jiri and Davis in the backcourt.


That's what they did last night. But I won't get my hopes up, this is probably going to be our PG rotation.

PG: Atkins/Hunter/Banks

The coaching staff will be impressed with the new vets.


----------



## Bad Bartons

I sure hope they don't fall in love with the vets from Detroit.

I think it is clear that Ainge is tanking the season and hoping to do a miracle job in rebuilding through the draft.

Why not start the rebuilding process by starting and playing the guy who is suposed to be the point guard of the future in Boston: Marcus Banks?

The only reason I might not start a rookie at the point who is talented is that it may hurt his confidence when he struggles. Marcus Banks has plenty of confidence to spare. He needs playing time.

Or are we just going to develop him enough for the next team to take him, ala Chauncey Billups.

We have been trying to fix the point position since Dennis Johnson left (no Kenny A. was not the answer at the point; he caused more harm than good in his time in Boston). Either the Celtics give Banks a legit chance to succeed by playing him or we are doing ourselves harm in the long run.

I said this long ago. The season is a wash.


----------



## vandyke

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> 
> 
> That's what they did last night. But I won't get my hopes up, this is probably going to be our PG rotation.
> 
> PG: Atkins/Hunter/Banks
> 
> The coaching staff will be impressed with the new vets.



Well I think it will be Atkins/Banks Ainge said before the game and during the game against the Clips that Hunter is the odd man out because he doesn't want to stifle Banks' growth but if that is the case why wouldn't you just start Banks and bring Atkins off the bench? But Ainge still won't admit he is tanking the season.


----------



## aquaitious

> Originally posted by <b>vandyke</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Well I think it will be Atkins/Banks Ainge said before the game and during the game against the Clips that Hunter is the odd man out because he doesn't want to stifle Banks' growth but if that is the case why wouldn't you just start Banks and bring Atkins off the bench? But Ainge still won't admit he is tanking the season.


Actually he did admit it last night. He said "I don't think we are a playoff team" really fast, so if we aren't a playoff team I guess we are a lottery team. And accodring to Danny the best way to develop talent is sitting it on the bench.


----------



## Premier

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually he did admit it last night. He said "I don't think we are a playoff team" really fast, so if we aren't a playoff team I guess we are a lottery team. And accodring to Danny the best way to develop talent is sitting it on the bench.


No, thats Obie and Friends' philosophy..


----------



## lastlaugh

It amazes me that people still want to blame Jim O'Brien for this teams trouble.
Danny has his puppet coaching right now and they still are not winning.


----------



## Truth34

*Danny's Puppet?*

I agree that it is ridiculous to blame O'Brien for us losing, but don't call Carroll Ainge's puppet. That will come in the offseason. Carroll is just an interim guy, who obviously can't coach. Maybe we are trying for the lottery.

Why you decided to rant about this on a Marcus Banks thread is anyone's guess.


----------



## aquaitious

> Originally posted by <b>Celts11</b>!
> 
> 
> No, thats Obie and Friends' philosophy..


10 games without OB, and I have yet to see Banks get major minutes, Hunter to get some minutes, and Perkins to get ANY minutes.


----------



## lastlaugh

*Re: Danny's Puppet?*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> I agree that it is ridiculous to blame O'Brien for us losing, but don't call Carroll Ainge's puppet. That will come in the offseason. Carroll is just an interim guy, who obviously can't coach. Maybe we are trying for the lottery.
> 
> Why you decided to rant about this on a Marcus Banks thread is anyone's guess.


[strike] Why don't you use your brain and look at the comments made by Celts11 a few people above yours?
Not that I have to explain anything to your current personality.[/strike]

Not ok. ---agoo


----------



## aquaitious

> Ainge said Carroll would make all decisions about playing time, but he expects both Atkins and Banks to see "significant minutes" at point guard.
> 
> "I think Danny brought Chucky in here to be the staring point guard," said Carroll. "I don't even think it's a question who's going to start. He was a starting point guard for the Detroit Pistons when they went to the second round of the playoffs a couple years ago. The only reason he hasn't started is because Chauncey Billups is an All-Star. I don't think it's even a question why Chucky's here. He's not here to sit on the bench."


http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2004/02/20/celtics_shop_even_as_they_drop/
Yay, you had a great game Marcus, now its back to the bench. This is the Atkins and Hunter show now. Move over ______.


----------



## Premier

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> 
> 
> 10 games without OB, and I have yet to see Banks get major minutes, Hunter to get some minutes, and Perkins to get ANY minutes.


Yeah, Carroll seems to share the same philosphy as Obie did. He plays veteran players and doesn't put any rebounders in. From what I can see, they are both in love with rotting young talent on the bench...


----------



## Truth34

*Ridnour*

Ridnour has been the better player, last night and all season. Hinrich may also win the season series. But I think Banks (6 ast/1TO last night) is improving and will be the better defender. If he can stick the mid-range jumper, a la DJ, he will be better than everyone, except maybe Ford.


----------



## whiterhino

Ridnour is a much better TRUE point guard, so is Hinrich. Banks may well become a good player someday but I'm becoming more convinced than ever that he'll never be a TRUE PASSING point guard and will always look for his shot too much, hope I'm wrong. Ridnour was AWESOME last night, the pass behind the back on his steal right by his basket was REALLY nice.


----------



## Truth34

*White Rhino you may be right*

But last night, Banks had 6 ast/1 TO

In Portland, he had 7 ast/2 TO, including some very nice passes...

Against the Clippers, another very nice game....

The more minutes he gets, the better he plays....


----------



## whiterhino

*Re: White Rhino you may be right*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> But last night, Banks had 6 ast/1 TO
> 
> In Portland, he had 7 ast/2 TO, including some very nice passes...
> 
> Against the Clippers, another very nice game....
> 
> The more minutes he gets, the better he plays....


Oh I agree, Banks is playing better, and I do think he'll do well in this league, I just don't think he's what we are gonna need, but maybe he'll prove me wrong, and I'd like nothing better than that


----------



## aquaitious

If Pierce would stop hogging the ball, and let the passes come to him, Banks would get more assists and develop and Pierce would be half as tired as he is now.

Also if Blount and Mihm would hit a few 2 footers and Pierce and Davis hit some of their wide open shots Banks tries so hard to make, Banks would have had double digits in assist both of the starts this season.

I'm very bothered by the quote above from Carroll, I mean 


> "I think Danny brought Chucky in here to be the staring point guard," said Carroll.


 and don't care if Chucky was Jason Kidd, if we are tanking the season why play your best players MAJOR MINUTES TO LOSE?


----------



## lastlaugh

Your quote is funny. Carroll said *I Think Danny Ainge. LMAO* 
Does that say it all or what? What did they promise him if he coached this team to losses.

and for your question about Pierce.
If, If, If 


Banks is getting better numbers because his assists and playing time where his assists are happening are coming in garbage time of games we have been blown out of.





> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> If Pierce would stop hogging the ball, and let the passes come to him, Banks would get more assists and develop and Pierce would be half as tired as he is now.
> 
> Also if Blount and Mihm would hit a few 2 footers and Pierce and Davis hit some of their wide open shots Banks tries so hard to make, Banks would have had double digits in assist both of the starts this season.
> 
> I'm very bothered by the quote above from Carroll, I mean
> and don't care if Chucky was Jason Kidd, if we are tanking the season why play your best players MAJOR MINUTES TO LOSE?


----------



## bballin

what exactly do you like about the celtics at the moment?


----------



## aquaitious

> Originally posted by <b>bballin</b>!
> what exactly do you like about the celtics at the moment?


Top 5 pick.


----------



## theBirdman

Link: http://celtics.bostonherald.com/celtics/celtics.bg?articleid=398

"I see him as a starting point guard who will play 35 minutes a game for us. Marcus (Banks) and Mike (James) were both thrust into that position for us this year. The only reason that Chucky wasn't starting (for Detroit) this year was that an All-Star (ex-Celtic Chauncey Billups) was playing ahead of him.'' 

"Marcus has played a lot because Mike was never a point guard before,'' Carroll said. ``Well, now Chucky will play and Marcus will play, but the minutes mix will be a little different. 

*"But, in my mind, Chucky will be playing 35 minutes a night, so you can do the math on that."* 


48-35= 13 minutes for Banks! That should be fun! :uhoh:


----------



## aquaitious

> Originally posted by <b>theBirdman</b>!
> 
> 
> "Marcus has played a lot because Mike was never a point guard before,'' Carroll said. ``Well, now Chucky will play and Marcus will play, but the minutes mix will be a little different.


Oh so that's why Marcus played a whooping 16 ****ING MINUTS. The new owners need to get rid of both Danny and this Coach, and get some random bum from the street, because it looks like he'll know more about rebuilding a team then these guys.


----------



## whiterhino

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh so that's why Marcus played a whooping 16 ****ING MINUTS. The new owners need to get rid of both Danny and this Coach, and get some random bum from the street, because it looks like he'll know more about rebuilding a team then these guys.


:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:


----------



## Truth34

*Banks blows away Blake*

Hey, adarsh and the fools who would rather have Blake...That looked like a POINT GUARD out there last night. Banks destroyed Washington.


----------



## aquaitious

*Re: Banks blows away Blake*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> Hey, adarsh and the fools who would rather have Blake...That looked like a POINT GUARD out there last night. Banks destroyed Washington.


Yes he had a very nice game.

Although I'm a bit concerned. I know Banks is a rookie, but some of the fouls that have been called against him are bogus, especially when he defends his man and does a GREAT job, but because he keeps up with his opponent, his oponent get bailed out.


----------



## whiterhino

I just picked up the March issue of Beckett Basketball and it graded all the 1st round draft picks for performance so far this year....Marcus got a D+ which was one of the very lowest grades, the only one lower was Reece Gaines of Orlando....Kendrick Perkins got an I for Incomplete because they said he has not played enough to fairly grade him at this point. Kirk Hinrich and TJ Ford had B+, Luke Ridnour had a B
The thing that caught my attention was they agreed with my worst fear, they said Marcus is a point guard who looks for his shot first, not good :no:


----------



## Premier

Ridnour doesn't deserve a B..

Banks is ahead in PPG/APG/RPG/SPG..


----------



## whiterhino

> Originally posted by <b>Celts11</b>!
> Ridnour doesn't deserve a B..
> 
> Banks is ahead in PPG/APG/RPG/SPG..


Well actually their stats are almost identical
Minutes Per Game
Banks 17.4
Ridnour 15.8
Field Goal Percentage
Banks .378
Ridnour .399
Three Point Percentage
Banks .292
Ridnour .318
Free Throw Percentage
Banks .691
Ridnour .821
Rebounds
Banks 1.7
Ridnour 1.5
Assists
Banks 2.3
Ridnour 2.2
Steals
Banks 1.0
Ridnour 0.8
Turnovers
Banks 1.6
Ridnour 1.2
Points
Banks 5.5
Ridnour 5.3

So as you can see statistically there is very little separating them, I think it's just the perception around the league and in the press so far that Banks does not look like a play making point and Ridnour does. I've seen Banks much more than I've seen Ridnour obviously. I think Banks is stronger and more athletic and a better defender but I do think Ridnour is a much better creator and will be better at spreading the floor and finding the open man, he has very good floor vision which I think is sometimes Marcus' weakness. They are only Rookies though and both have gotten very sporadic playing time so only time will tell what happens with them.


----------



## aquaitious

I think a lot has to do with the prais they got. Ridnour was said to be a very good point guard, Banks was said to be, by Danny a million times, the best point guard in the draft.


----------



## Premier

But, Banks probably plays the best defense out of the Rookie PG's. Ridnour is terrible on defense. He is soft and gets pushed around by the bigger guards.

OT: Reece Gains is HORRIBLE..Before the Draft, I actually wanted the Celtics to select him. Thank God I'm not the GM/Director of Basketball Operations .


----------



## 7thwatch

> Originally posted by <b>Celts11</b>!
> But, Banks probably plays the best defense out of the Rookie PG's.


I haven't seen Banks play that much, but you'd also have to consider Hinrich for that honor.


----------



## Truth34

*Banks's D*

Banks plays very good D; those fouls won't be called as much next year...he'll earn the respect from the refs.

Sorry, but I don't use Beckett as an authority for anything other than card value.

I'd give Marcus a C.


----------



## Premier

*Re: Banks's D*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> Banks plays very good D; those fouls won't be called as much next year...he'll earn the respect from the refs.
> 
> Sorry, but I don't use Beckett as an authority for anything other than card value.
> 
> I'd give Marcus a C.


I'd give him and what Luke Ridnour deserves...C+


----------



## Truth34

*Banks blows away Blake...again*

He was awful in the first half...but Marcus Banks looked pretty damn good in the second Saturday night when the Celtics came back and won the game.


----------



## whiterhino

*Re: Banks blows away Blake...again*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> He was awful in the first half...but Marcus Banks looked pretty damn good in the second Saturday night when the Celtics came back and won the game.


Um Marcus was drafted 13 overall, Blake was a second thought, 2nd round draft pick..........exactly what is this supposed to prove???!?? Until he blows away Hinrich, Ford, Barbosa, or even Ridnour, hold the excitement!

If I was grading them right now I'd give Hinrich an A, Ford a B, Barbosa a B, Ridnour a C+ and Banks a C. That's not to knock Marcus but it's being honest and unbiased...I wish he was the A or B but clearly he's not in that realm yet.

As for the comment about Reece Gaines, I remember calling him a bust when the Magic picked him and some guy came on here from the Magic board (MAJIC) I beleive having a fit that Marcus sucked and Reece was the end all be all, I get a laugh out of that now. Reece is widely considered THE draft bust of the first round:laugh: Marcus may not be setting the league on fire yet, but he sure has a heck of a lot more promise than Gaines ever will.


----------



## SavSicc

Marcus Banks is playing soldid lately his assist is up but he needs to work on his layups while guys are in the post. i guess the celtics needs to have patience with this cookie.


----------



## Truth34

*Great post, rhino*

No, you're right, I was just responding to a Wiz fan who thought Blake was better. 

I'd give Marcus a C, too, and if you look at the rundown of the head-to-head matchups (first post), you can see Ridnour dusted him. But he held his own against Ford, and he is showing some signs. Definitely a work in progress....


----------



## whiterhino

*Re: Great post, rhino*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> No, you're right, I was just responding to a Wiz fan who thought Blake was better.
> 
> I'd give Marcus a C, too, and if you look at the rundown of the head-to-head matchups (first post), you can see Ridnour dusted him. But he held his own against Ford, and he is showing some signs. Definitely a work in progress....


Yup, lets just hope next year he breaks out and becomes the guy we hope for him to be, I think he has the ability, it's all a matter of how hard he wants to work for it.


----------



## rebelsun

Marcus just needs a little time to adjust to being an NBA point. I think he'll be fine.


----------



## Truth34

*Starting to see something here....*

Nice game against Golden State for Banks:

17 minutes, 6-9 shooting, 1-1 foul shooting, 2 rebounds, 5 assists, SEVEN (7) STEALS, 13 points, and forced Avery Johnson into a travelling violation!

Is there a better defending point guard among the rookies. NO WAY. He has a lot to learn on offense, but I maintain that he can still be the best. The offseason will be important, but the season isn't over. He's still developing.


----------

