# Celtics sign Dahntay Jones and Estaban Batista



## Celtics_Fan (Sep 1, 2007)

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/extras/celtics_blog/

Good pickups. If T.Allen goes down, Dahntay can fill in well enough. If Perkins and Pollard go down, which is very likely, then Batista should get a good amount of playing time with Powe/Davis. Looks like that issue of not having enough depth is being dispelled. Wonder what Bob Ryan has to say now.


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## WhoDaBest23 (Apr 16, 2003)

They're just training camp invites right now no? Pretty solid pick-ups if they make the team.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

I thought Dahntay Jones was a restricted FA? He'd be a fantastic pickup. Batista not so much, but Jones would be great.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Dahntay Jones is a really good pick up. Very solid defender. Still dont know why they Celts have not addressed the PG situation. Jones might not be that much better than Tony though

I dont know too much about Batista


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Uh, PG situation? There is no point guard situation. Rajon Rondo's the starter, he'll do fantastic, and that's that.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

And the backup point guard? Injuries are a part of the game you know


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Actually come to think of this, the Jones signing is baffling as heck. Who is he backing up? Allen and House are both shooting guards. Posey is going to see time at the 2, 3 and 4 spot. Whats Jones going to do?


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Allen is probably gone.Jones is one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA and he's going to get a lot of minutes whenever you're up against a premier scoring wing.He gives big time scorers fits.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Jones is one of the dudes we drafted for Memphis when we got Perk and Banks, right?

And don't know this from anything other than what I read, but Batista is a strong, low-post, scorer and rebounder, so that's a good pick up too for some minutes behind KG and Perk.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

HB said:


> And the backup point guard? Injuries are a part of the game you know


Sure, but I think the "PG situation" is being made far too big of a topic when the "center situation" is far more pressing. I guess you can argue that they at least have _more_ centers. But the fact that they all suck - to a man - is more important IMO.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

By the way, I think both are good pickups. We're talking about 2 guys who can be used in game situations and not kill you. This late in the offseason, that's an incredible pickup.


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## BostonBasketball (Jan 10, 2005)

Don't forget the role they'll play in practice. Jones will be a good competitor for Pierce, Allen, Allen #2 etc.


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## Celtics_Fan (Sep 1, 2007)

WhoDaBest23 said:


> They're just training camp invites right now no? Pretty solid pick-ups if they make the team.


The blog article says they are non-guaranteed contracts. I know that Batista was looking for something guaranteed, as was E.Williams. My guess is Batista's confident he'll get a spot on the team. I think Jones is there to give some solid workouts to the guys ahead of him, and maybe even get TA's motor even more in gear. From what has been written, he's working pretty hard to get back into shape. Not sure if Dahntay is here to push him, or to push him out. We'll see.


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## chapi (Apr 4, 2003)

Jones is better than T.Allen anyway


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

So who is getting cut


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

HB said:


> So who is getting cut


Manuel and Wallace i would assume (if both get guarenteed contracts)

i like both pick ups, there is a lot of depth on the wings but dahntay should push for playing time and improves this teams defense even more.

Batista plays down low, bangs and hustles for rebounds.. plus training and playing with guys of this caliber is going to help both of their games.

a back up pg would have been nice, but 2 good signings none the less.
apart from that pg spot (which can be covered by allen x2 and house anyway) depth is now a non issue.


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## Perfection (May 10, 2004)

chapi said:


> Jones is better than T.Allen anyway



Haha, that's a laugh. Assuming Tony Allen recovers from his injury to the level he was playing last year, Allen is a great player. Not only is Allen a good defender, but he really stepped up his offensive game and think he's a great player to backup Pierce/Allen.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Tony Allen will be traded the minute his value warrants it. His offensive game consists of putting his head down and bullrushing the net. Not really a skillset in high demand at the moment. Dahntay Jones is certainly a better defensive player than Allen, as he plays tough perimeter defense and great team defense. Allen's team D leaves a little to be desired. Eddie House will be playing the 1 in Boston, Rivers has never used a traditional point guard and isn't about to start now that he has the horses to challenge for a title. Rondo better be ready to play like Bibby, if he isn't he'll be watching from the pine. The Celtics are no longer in development mode.


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## andy787 (Jun 9, 2003)

AHHHH. This summer is getting better and better. smell of championship in the air.


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## NJ+VC (Feb 8, 2005)

when i think of jones, i remember two things...

....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zDAiu9LXO6A

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oLs-0t1-eqU


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Flash is the Future said:


> I thought Dahntay Jones was a restricted FA? He'd be a fantastic pickup. Batista not so much, but Jones would be great.


Memphis renounced him at the beginning of the offseason to clear up some more cap.

Dahntay was a disappointment in Memphis. He played pesky, "floppy," pull-the-chair type defense and he was good for a few wicked posterizations. Other than that, he was almost completely ineffective. Can't shoot a lick, indecisive with the ball, never shoots when he catches it. Lousy on offense, hard worker on defense.

He didn't improve much after his second season, and honestly, he didn't have much room to.


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## WhoDaBest23 (Apr 16, 2003)

Assuming both Jones and Batista sign on, the roster shapes up real nicely for the season. Depth would no longer be a concern.

C: Perkins, Batista, Pollard
PF: Garnett, Davis, Powe, Scalabrine
SF: Pierce, Posey
SG: Allen, Jones, Allen
PG: Rondo, House, Pruitt

Man, that bench's not too bad at all. Good job Boston.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

NJ+VC said:


> http://youtube.com/watch?v=oLs-0t1-eqU


:lol: 

i remember watching that live and nearly falling out my chair laughing so hard


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## Perfection (May 10, 2004)

I still think it's hilarious that you fans think T.Allen would be behind Jones. Jones is a scrub. Allen is a player. He averaged nearly 19 ppg last February for the month before he went out with injury. His jumper has improved, and he'll be a great backup for Allen and Pierce (along with Posey).


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

He averaged 19p/g for a 14 game stretch when other teams were playing with all the intensity normally reserved for July exhibition games against the Malaysian National Team because the Celtics only NBA player was in a cast with a broken foot (stress fracture). His entire offensive game consisted of putting his head down, dribbling wildly as he bullrushed the net to throw up a wild shot and pray that it either went in or that the refs bailed him out. He isn't some hidden star, he's a scrub like Dahntay Jones. Jones, at the least, knows that he's a scrub in the game to play some D.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Rawse said:


> He played pesky, "floppy," pull-the-chair type defense and he was good for a few wicked posterizations. Other than that, he was almost completely ineffective. Can't shoot a lick, indecisive with the ball, never shoots when he catches it. Lousy on offense, hard worker on defense.


Now, now, now, if Tony's a "decent" shooter then Jones (whose aFG% on jumpers was 30 points higher) has to be better than "can't shoot a lick". :bsmile:


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Two decent additions. Jones is arguably a better defender than a _healthy_ Tony Allen. The rotation should look like:

5 Kendrick Perkins
4 Kevin Garnett
3 Paul Pierce
2 Ray Allen
1 Rajon Rondo

James Posey, Eddie House, Brian Scalabrine, Esteban Batista, Dahntay Jones

I'm still not confident in Tony Allen's recovery and I think Batista has a better shot at getting regular playing time than either Leon Powe or Glen Davis, who the Celtics were reportedly shopping. Pruitt is still a year away from contributing and Pollard takes his rightful spot on the IL.


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## Celtics_Fan (Sep 1, 2007)

Interesting how some things just open the door to bash a Celtic one way or the other. The signing of Dahntay Jones opens the door to bash on Tony Allen now? TA has played well when healthy. He wasn't bad his rookie year either, when they were in a playoff hunt. Yes, Reggie used his experience to get him off his game come playoff time, but there should be no question that TA has talent, and when healthy, he can put it together. He played well this season when he could. Saying the opponent wasn't trying is a cop out and an excuse just to continue bashing him, IMO. 

And it's just my opinion, but he's a better team defender and defender overall than Dahntay Jones.


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## meltinjohn (Jun 6, 2006)

Allan Ray will be cut. Oh wait I forgot, he was gone for like over 2 months lol.
TA should be cut or traded for a 2nd rd pick.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Celtics_Fan said:


> Interesting how some things just open the door to bash a Celtic one way or the other. The signing of Dahntay Jones opens the door to bash on Tony Allen now? TA has played well when healthy. He wasn't bad his rookie year either, when they were in a playoff hunt. Yes, Reggie used his experience to get him off his game come playoff time, but there should be no question that TA has talent, and when healthy, he can put it together. He played well this season when he could. Saying the opponent wasn't trying is a cop out and an excuse just to continue bashing him, IMO.
> 
> And it's just my opinion, but he's a better team defender and defender overall than Dahntay Jones.


It's a wrong opinion. Team D isn't much of a strength for Tony, he's more focused on gambling for turnovers than making the right rotations.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

meltinjohn said:


> TA should be cut or traded for a 2nd rd pick.



riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight


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## cgcatsfan (Jun 10, 2005)

Doc doesn't like TA anyway, right? 
I think that will come into play. 

I'm looking forward to this season more than the last 5.....


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## meltinjohn (Jun 6, 2006)

Tony Allen traded for a top 45 protected 2nd rd pick + a trade exception of 500,000. A small little bag of peanuts nifty enough to see the light of day.


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## Attila (Jul 23, 2003)

So I guess we didn't need a big enough to sign the Kandi man?


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## Celtics_Fan (Sep 1, 2007)

ehmunro said:


> It's a wrong opinion.


Who are you to determine that?



> Team D isn't much of a strength for Tony


Yes it is.



> he's more focused on gambling for turnovers than making the right rotations.


No he isn't.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Celtics_Fan said:


> Who are you to determine that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well...I'm convinced.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Celtics_Fan said:


> Who are you to determine that?


E.H. Munro



Celtics_Fan said:


> Yes he is. No he isn't.


He is what? Allen gambles for steals. You can claim he's only focused on team defense as much as you'd like, but he'll still be out there gambling for steals.


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## Celtics_Fan (Sep 1, 2007)

ehmunro said:


> E.H. Munro


Which means absolutely nothing.





> He is what? Allen gambles for steals. You can claim he's only focused on team defense as much as you'd like, but he'll still be out there gambling for steals.


You can claim that I can claim that he's ONLY focused on team defense... however, what I've actually said is that he's better than Dahntay Jones at team defense. He is not ONLY focused on gambling for steals, either.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Team defense isn't a strength for Tony. Keep stomping your feet, sticking your fingers in your ears, and shouting "I can't heeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaar you" but it's the reality.


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## Perfection (May 10, 2004)

Honestly I think the TA bashing is out of hand. He is a better scorer than Jones, and Doc even mentioned using him at PG some in spot relief. Boston had to sign players to reach the minimum and rounded their bench out nicely. If Allen or Pierce go down for some time, then TA can fill the void until they return. 

I'm not even a Celtics fan but I have enough knowledge and savvy to believe this.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

TA filling in at point guard is awful. I prefer him to Jones just because I am familiar with him. However, he's coming off a knee injury and cannot truly be depended upon. Remember last time he was coming back from a knee and how long it took before he could do all of the things he was doing last season before this injury?

What I would really like to see is bringing in a true point guard with Batista. I like Rondo, I like House. I also like point guards who have proven they can set up an offense against pressure defense in big situations.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Perfection said:


> Honestly I think the TA bashing is out of hand. He is a better scorer than Jones, and Doc even mentioned using him at PG some in spot relief.


This is what frightens most of us. He's a worse shooter than Jones and a turnover prone dribbler (mostly because he keeps his head down and charges). Most of us want him nowhere near the 1.



Perfection said:


> Boston had to sign players to reach the minimum and rounded their bench out nicely. If Allen or Pierce go down for some time, then TA can fill the void until they return.


They didn't need to sign anyone to reach the minimum. If they decide to keep Jones & Batista it means that two of their existing players are outward bound, most likely Wallace & Manuel.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Jones int a good shooter either. Honestly I dont think he is that much better than TA


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

HB said:


> Jones int a good shooter either. Honestly I dont think he is that much better than TA


He isn't good, he's just thirty points better than Tony (which isn't saying much, I know).


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## blh5387 (Apr 6, 2006)

chapi said:


> Jones is better than T.Allen anyway


Ummm... no.


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## Perfection (May 10, 2004)

ehmunro said:


> He isn't good, he's just thirty points better than Tony (which isn't saying much, I know).



Last Year Tony Allen: FG 51.4%, 3PT 24.2% (very few attempts), FT 78.4%
Last Year Dahntay Jones: FG 47.7% 3PT 41.7% (very few attempts, fluke increase from previous year where he shot 14%) FT 79% (also surprise increase up from 64% the previous year). 

Tony Allen has better defensive numbers too (I know stats don't always translate).

Anyways, assuming TA comes back, he can be a contributor and is better in Jones IMO. Here is the line Jones put up in January last year, or as a starter all year: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3842/splits;_ylt=Arr661SksTx9dDF2soLBxoCkvLYF

I think Posey will be ahead of both of them on the depth chart, but I'd like to see Allen get some burn.


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## Celtics_Fan (Sep 1, 2007)

ehmunro said:


> Team defense isn't a strength for Tony. Keep stomping your feet, sticking your fingers in your ears, and shouting "I can't heeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaar you" but it's the reality.


There is no stomping of the feet whatsoever, there is nothing of that sort going on. All I've said is he is a better team defender than Dahntay Jones. There are numbers to support he's a better defender, but nothing to really pinpoint that he's a better team defender. On that, one would have to go primarily on observation, and naturally, I think I have a better handle on things than you.

You think otherwise. I guess that's it.


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## Celtics_Fan (Sep 1, 2007)

Perfection said:


> Last Year Tony Allen: FG 51.4%, 3PT 24.2% (very few attempts), FT 78.4%
> Last Year Dahntay Jones: FG 47.7% 3PT 41.7% (very few attempts, fluke increase from previous year where he shot 14%) FT 79% (also surprise increase up from 64% the previous year).
> 
> Tony Allen has better defensive numbers too (I know stats don't always translate).


They are similar when looking at those stats, and 82games.com will show that on jumpers alone, Jones shot 39% to TA's 36%. The percentage of Allen's shot attempts is only 45% in comparison to Jones' 61%. So even though he's shooting a lower percentage, he's not really putting it up there as frequent, while Jones is tossing it up there a lot, and not shooting well overall. In that case, I'd take the better overall player and better team defender in Tony Allen.

Avoiding putting him at PG is a good idea, too... he's not a PG. His turnovers and production overall was better when they pulled him out of that role.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Perfection said:


> Last Year Tony Allen: FG 51.4%, 3PT 24.2% (very few attempts), FT 78.4%
> Last Year Dahntay Jones: FG 47.7% 3PT 41.7% (very few attempts, fluke increase from previous year where he shot 14%) FT 79% (also surprise increase up from 64% the previous year).


Tony Allen aFG% on jumpers- .362

Dahntay Jones aFG% on jumpers- .391


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Celtics_Fan said:


> I think I have a better handle on things than you.


I don't think you've demonstrated anything of the sort.


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## Celtics_Fan (Sep 1, 2007)

ehmunro said:


> I don't think you've demonstrated anything of the sort.


You don't have to think it, really. Your claim that Dahntay Jones is a great defender is proof. Using TA's ability to get in passing lanes and create turnovers against him to act like Jones is a better team defender is comedy. When Jones got more than 20mins per game, his 115 defensive rating was atrocious. No matter how many minutes TA's received, his defensive rating has always been good. Jones doesn't create turnovers either, and not as effective a rebounder. The whole point here is to know who the better team defender is. TA defends his man very well, and also creates turnovers to get his team in transition while getting more rebounds on the defensive end. This helps the team far more than what Jones has demonstrated. There is nothing to support Jones is the better team defender or a better defender than TA overall....nevermind this "great defender" you claim he is....

As far as the jumper goes, there is not a big difference between 36% and 39%. Both are brick-layers in this sense. TA, however, is smart enough to recognize his weakness and doesn't shoot the jumper nearly as much. 61% of Jones' field-goal attempts were jumpers....at a 39% rate... TA is 45% at 36%... So TA is hurting his team LESS by shooting less jumpers and actually capitalizing on his ability to get to the FT line, which HELPS HIS TEAM. 82games.com should support that his FT rate is higher than Jones'; and per 40 mins, he's getting 3 more FTAs per game as well. There isn't even a big difference between the two in turnovers; so this idea that TA just dribbles with his head down and turns the ball over doesn't really work here. 

I like the Jones pickup; hope he makes the team too. I think he has the ability and athleticism to contribute to this team as reserve at times, but there is nothing at all to say he can replace TA on either end of the court...outside of your opinion, which might be fine for you, but not for reality. You can say what you'd like about TA, you can even stomp your feet if you'd like... but with all things equal, this team is better off on both ends of the floor with TA on it than Jones. 

The only way Jones replaces TA is by injury, as TA has proven to be Wally-like in this area so far in his career.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Celtics_Fan said:


> You don't have to think it, really. Your claim that Dahntay Jones is a great defender is proof.


Can you show me anywhere that I said that? I believe my words were "better team defender". Your misinterpretation of my words would seem to be the result of your belief that Tony's First Team All-NBA Defensive Team material, meaning that I _must_ think Dahntay Jones is great. I don't think either one of them belong on any All Defensive teams. They're both bench fodder. One of them knows that and the other thinks he's a star. I have a long record of disliking roleplayers with over-inflated values of their worth (sorry, #1AWF, but it's true).



Celtics_Fan said:


> As far as the jumper goes, there is not a big difference between 36% and 39%. Both are brick-layers in this sense. TA, however, is smart enough to recognize his weakness and doesn't shoot the jumper nearly as much.


The problem is that every bull rush to the net takes away shots from better players. They're also considerably easier to defend when the other team _actually tries_, which they didn't last year because Boston became a bad NBDL team the minute Pierce went down. This year the Celtics need guys to space the floor, Tony doesn't have a prayer of doing it. Hence my wish that the Celtics trade him for someone like Charlie Bell at the first available opportunity.


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## Celtics_Fan (Sep 1, 2007)

ehmunro said:


> Can you show me anywhere that I said that? I believe my words were "better team defender". Your misinterpretation of my words would seem to be the result of your belief that Tony's First Team All-NBA Defensive Team material, meaning that I _must_ think Dahntay Jones is great. I don't think either one of them belong on any All Defensive teams. They're both bench fodder. One of them knows that and the other thinks he's a star. I have a long record of disliking roleplayers with over-inflated values of their worth (sorry, #1AWF, but it's true).


While you did say Jones was "certainly a better defensive player than Allen", you went on to state he "plays great team defense". I think both statements are way off.





> The problem is that every bull rush to the net takes away shots from better players. They're also considerably easier to defend when the other team _actually tries_, which they didn't last year because Boston became a bad NBDL team the minute Pierce went down. This year the Celtics need guys to space the floor, Tony doesn't have a prayer of doing it. Hence my wish that the Celtics trade him for someone like Charlie Bell at the first available opportunity.


Every shot ANYONE takes will take away a shot from someone else. That's why you make your shot opportunities count, and make sure they are helpful to the team. An Eddie House 3pt attempt might take away a shot from KG...it doesn't matter if KG is better than Eddie House if House's shots are going in at a good rate, right? Well, what you call a TA "bullrush", I call him getting in the lane, which both labels result in getting to the FT line, getting somebody in foul trouble, and only helping the team. I can live with seeing one of our top 3 not getting a shot on this possession if TA's making things happen in a positive manner.

If you want to trade TA for Charlie Bell, I hope you don't expect Jones to be his sufficient replacement. Jones is not as good as TA overall, and is NOT a great team defender; we will lose a very strong defensive wing player in TA for a player like Bell, who will be a solid PG for the team, but probably not neccessary with Rondo/House here. 

BTW: I do absolutely think TA has all-defensive abilities, but there some decent players in the NBA with all-defense abilities that have to take a backseat for that accolade to overrated defenders with great offensive abilities, like Kobe Bryant. 

A bit of a soapbox for me, but it's a CRIME for a GREAT defender like Luol Deng to not get recognition while Bryant gets on.

...sorry for that...

One more thing: Its silly to say that TA was productive because the other team wasn't trying...and if you're trying to use this to support anything from a Dahntay Jones standpoint, good luck trying to convince people that teams were revving up their engines to play Memphis...although I think all these theories should be thrown out. TA was starting to do very well even before Pierce went down with injury. I feel you're just using this to continue your stance to criticize Allen...it's lame.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Celtics_Fan said:


> While you did say Jones was "certainly a better defensive player than Allen", you went on to state he "plays great team defense". I think both statements are way off.


As a "basketball expert" you _do_ understand that playing great team defense doesn't necessarily make one a great defender, right? Paul Pierce, for example, was a great team defender during the O'Brien era, but no one would ever confuse him with being a great defensive player (as he was never anything more than above average over all).



Celtics_Fan said:


> Every shot ANYONE takes will take away a shot from someone else.


Except that because of Tony's game Pierce will have to step back into jumpshot range to clear out space for Tony. If Allen were at least cognisant of the fact that he's bench fodder, it wouldn't be a problem. He isn't. He sincerely thinks he's a star. That's a problem.



Celtics_Fan said:


> If you want to trade TA for Charlie Bell, I hope you don't expect Jones to be his sufficient replacement. Jones is not as good as TA overall, and is NOT a great team defender; we will lose a very strong defensive wing player in TA for a player like Bell, who will be a solid PG for the team, but probably not neccessary with Rondo/House here.


Tony isn't that good. Bell fills a real need (a guard that can defend the one, handle well enough to get the ball to either Pierce or Garnett to initiate the offense and space the floor with his shooting) and has a good handle on his actual worth as a player. Neither Allen nor Jones are anything more than a backup backup shooting guard. Jones is certainly capable of playing smart defense for 8-10 minutes a game.



Celtics_Fan said:


> BTW: I do absolutely think TA has all-defensive abilities, but there some decent players in the NBA with all-defense abilities that have to take a backseat for that accolade to overrated defenders with great offensive abilities, like Kobe Bryant.


Tony Allen, if he dedicates himself to healthy living, and relentless training, might be a better NBA defender than Kobe when they're in their 50s. Tony isn't in the same universe as Kobe today. Bryant is a much better defensive player than Allen.



Celtics_Fan said:


> A bit of a soapbox for me, but it's a CRIME for a GREAT defender like Luol Deng to not get recognition while Bryant gets on.


Deng is a forward and Bryant's a guard, they're not in competition at all. Deng's competition would be Garnett, Prince, Duncan, and Bowen. I'll agree that Bowen is terribly overrated, while he's a great _team defender_ he's no longer the individual defender he once was.



Celtics_Fan said:


> One more thing: Its silly to say that TA was productive because the other team wasn't trying...and if you're trying to use this to support anything from a Dahntay Jones standpoint, good luck trying to convince people that teams were revving up their engines to play Memphis...although I think all these theories should be thrown out. TA was starting to do very well even before Pierce went down with injury. I feel you're just using this to continue your stance to criticize Allen...it's lame.


Dude, the _Atlanta ****ing Hawks_ treated the Boston Piercelesses like they were playing an exhibition game. During that 18 game moral victory streak the Celtics got Atnalta at home on coming off a late night game the night before, and rang up a 30 point lead on the rather tired Hawks. Who spent the time yucking it up on the court, because even though they were 30 points down, _they never doubted for a moment that with a minimal effort they'd win_. Even Memphis got treated with more respect than Boston.


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## Celtics_Fan (Sep 1, 2007)

> As a "basketball expert" you do understand that playing great team defense doesn't necessarily make one a great defender, right? Paul Pierce, for example, was a great team defender during the O'Brien era, but no one would ever confuse him with being a great defensive player (as he was never anything more than above average over all).


However you want to put it, saying Dahntay Jones is a great TEAM defender is way off. Now you have not said whether or not Tony Allen is a great non-team defender. But you did say Jones was a better defender. So do you think Jones is a better defender overall, or just a better team defender?



> Except that because of Tony's game Pierce will have to step back into jumpshot range to clear out space for Tony. If Allen were at least cognisant of the fact that he's bench fodder, it wouldn't be a problem. He isn't. He sincerely thinks he's a star. That's a problem.


Whatever Tony thinks isn't the problem, it's what he does on the floor. He has done very well alongside Pierce so far in his career, so I think it's going to take you getting over his own self-confidence in this matter. And if Pierce steps back for a jumper once in a while, it'll only be a negative if TA is not making a positive contribution taking it to the basket. I figure TA will be fine playing as a slasher off the ball, and making things happen defensively, getting the team in the open court. He'll be more of a positive than a negative on the floor.



> Tony isn't that good. Bell fills a real need (a guard that can defend the one, handle well enough to get the ball to either Pierce or Garnett to initiate the offense and space the floor with his shooting) and has a good handle on his actual worth as a player. Neither Allen nor Jones are anything more than a backup backup shooting guard. Jones is certainly capable of playing smart defense for 8-10 minutes a game.


It really doesn't matter what he thinks his worth is. He just needs to be effective on the floor. We're not in NEED of Bell more than we're in need of a great wing defender, IMO. Pierce isn't one, neither is Ray. Really, only Allen and Rondo are it. Bell would be a good guard on the team for the reasons you state, but the real necessary ingredient IMO would be experience, especially big-game experience. For obvious reasons, that could be valuable even if Rondo is seeing the majority of the minutes, which is what I'd expect him to do even if Bell were on the team.

You and I are obviously at a crossroads as to TA's ability. He does think he's an all-star, and I don't see a problem with having that type of belief in himself, so long as it doesn't get in the way of how he helps the team. When TA has been healthy, he's been effective for this team on both ends of the floor, even spectacular at times. I really don't see it as a problem.



> Tony Allen, if he dedicates himself to healthy living, and relentless training, might be a better NBA defender than Kobe when they're in their 50s. Tony isn't in the same universe as Kobe today. Bryant is a much better defensive player than Allen.


I seriously don't think so, and while our own observations is the best tool, there are stats that say otherwise as well. Kobe does have a good reason though, since he has to exert tons of energy on the offensive side of the ball.



> Deng is a forward and Bryant's a guard, they're not in competition at all. Deng's competition would be Garnett, Prince, Duncan, and Bowen. I'll agree that Bowen is terribly overrated, while he's a great team defender he's no longer the individual defender he once was.


Yeah, that is true. It's unfortunate that players like Deng will go unrecognized though, while overrated defenders gain that accolade, regardless of position. Another guard I feel is a better defender than Bryant is Gerald Wallace, although I do admit to not seeing him play as often. Andre Iguodala is one I see alot, and there's no question in my mind he's a better defender. Again, Kobe's offensive responsibilities very likely hold him back from being as good as they are on a consistent basis. Still, it was never an issue for KG/MJ/Pippen and others that also were good/great offensive talents.




> Dude, the Atlanta ****ing Hawks treated the Boston Piercelesses like they were playing an exhibition game. During that 18 game moral victory streak the Celtics got Atnalta at home on coming off a late night game the night before, and rang up a 30 point lead on the rather tired Hawks. Who spent the time yucking it up on the court, because even though they were 30 points down, they never doubted for a moment that with a minimal effort they'd win. Even Memphis got treated with more respect than Boston.


You're using a game that TA didn't even play in. Why use this game to then go on and say TA was productive because teams weren't trying? The team lost not only Pierce, but Allen, and Wally too. You know you need experience, defense, and consistent play to win or even to maintain a lead in the league...you aren't going to get that from a young group of players like that. I don't think any of the ATL game proves TA's production shouldn't be valid. TA was playing well sometime around Dec.4, when they still had Pierce up until the 20th. TA continued playing well. He deserves credit for that. It's a shame that a Celtics fan would actually go out of his way to try and take that away from him. Using a game that he didn't even play in is grasping for straws, IMO. Not acknowledging he did do well even when things actually counted for a little while is just too obvious, IMO.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Celtics_Fan said:


> However you want to put it, saying Dahntay Jones is a great TEAM defender is way off.


No, it's not. Ask an actual basketball coach sometime that's watched him. And Jones would need to be a bad individual defender, which he isn't, to sink behind Allen as overall defender. Allen is a very good individual defender that makes some poor gambles on the defensive end. But he's incredibly overrated by some Celtics fans as seen here.



Celtics_Fan said:


> Whatever Tony thinks isn't the problem...
> 
> You and I are obviously at a crossroads as to TA's ability. He does think he's an all-star, and I don't see a problem with having that type of belief in himself, so long as it doesn't get in the way of how he helps the team


It's exactly the problem. Antoine Walker was a guy that would have been an effective roleplayer if he hadn't been so convinced that he was a star. Players with an over-inflated sense of their own worth generally hurt their teams overall.



Celtics_Fan said:


> I seriously don't think so, and while our own observations is the best tool, there are stats that say otherwise as well. Kobe does have a good reason though, since he has to exert tons of energy on the offensive side of the ball.


Even in the DCS ratings (warped by the screwy +/- results produced by dog-awful teams) Bryant comes out ahead of Allen. Add in the fact that Bryant's done this for years against opposing starters playing to win, and Allen's done it for a perennial lottery team against other teams' bench fodder and Bryant gets everyones nod.



Celtics_Fan said:


> Yeah, that is true. It's unfortunate that players like Deng will go unrecognized though, while overrated defenders gain that accolade, regardless of position. Another guard I feel is a better defender than Bryant is Gerald Wallace, although I do admit to not seeing him play as often. Andre Iguodala is one I see alot, and there's no question in my mind he's a better defender. Again, Kobe's offensive responsibilities very likely hold him back from being as good as they are on a consistent basis. Still, it was never an issue for KG/MJ/Pippen and others that also were good/great offensive talents.


Wallace is primarily a forward, Matt Carroll is Charlotte's shooting guard. Iguodala suffers from the "best player on a bad team" syndrome, but has a much better case than TA. Allen isn't as good as any of these guys.



Celtics_Fan said:


> You're using a game that TA didn't even play in.


Because it was probably the most embarrassing game in team history and the best example of the complete lack of effort that every opponent showed the Celtics last year. As long as it was happening against actual NBA teams, a good portion of Celtic fandom could convince themselves that Boston still had the greatest accumulation of young talent in NBA history. After that game a lot of them jumped off the bandwagon in disgust. Atnalta wasn't some exception, they invested about three minutes of effort in the second quarter, another four to five in the third and the same in the fourth then went on cruise control the rest of the way. They weren't the exception, they were the rule. Well, OK, on second thought, they _were_ an exception. Being that they were the Atnalta Skwah they actually put forth _more_ effort than most of the other teams Boston lost to.




Celtics_Fan said:


> The team lost not only Pierce, but Allen, and Wally too.


You _do_ realise that the Celtics actually got _better_ after Wally went down the first time, and got _worse_ the moment he returned, right?


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

endless.


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## Jenness (Apr 18, 2007)

Tony Allen never struck me as a great defender, or even a good one. He was a great one in college but that hasn't carried into the pros. I'm just speculating but I think the reputation that preceded him into the nba, as well as having great athleticism and, hey, that's supposed to be his role, makes some people overrate his defense.

All I know is that he's gotten scored upon with regularity against the likes of Bryant, Lebron, Carmelo, Wade. Sure it's tough for anyone to stop those guys but Allen gets eaten up and a great defender should make his reputation against the top scorers in the league, not against limited players like Adam Morrison and Matt Carroll, both of whom he's defended marvelously. He's good at chasing people around the court around screens but against guys who are just as athletic and bigger, who can face him up, he struggles.

Anyway, it'd be nice if he can make a comeback and commence playing at least 80 percent of the level he was playing at before he got injured. The celtics could use some good backup guards.


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## Celtics_Fan (Sep 1, 2007)

> No, it's not. Ask an actual basketball coach sometime that's watched him. And Jones would need to be a bad individual defender, which he isn't, to sink behind Allen as overall defender. Allen is a very good individual defender that makes some poor gambles on the defensive end. But he's incredibly overrated by some Celtics fans as seen here.


Oh, you think players and coaches haven't made comments on TA's defensive ability? I think the whole "ask an actual coach" position leaves yourself open to being full of crap. There is nothing to support Jones being a 'great' team defender. TA's better. There's proof.



> It's exactly the problem. Antoine Walker was a guy that would have been an effective roleplayer if he hadn't been so convinced that he was a star. Players with an over-inflated sense of their own worth generally hurt their teams overall.


TA has not shown to have the same situation as Walker. TA has played well when healthy, and played within his own abilities when healthy, save for when Doc tried him out as a PG, but that's not really his fault. Walker had the ability to actually play better than he did, but chose to settle for 3's far too often instead of focusing on the things that he can do well. TA is not in the same situation. It's good for TA to have a high level of confidence in his abilities. He plays better that way.



> Even in the DCS ratings (warped by the screwy +/- results produced by dog-awful teams) Bryant comes out ahead of Allen. Add in the fact that Bryant's done this for years against opposing starters playing to win, and Allen's done it for a perennial lottery team against other teams' bench fodder and Bryant gets everyones nod.


DCS...obviously not the best statistical tool. I think Drtg show TA better, but no stat really does the whole situation justice. I think a lot of the reason Kobe's defense is overrated is due to his exertion on the offensive end. He does have to carry a large load offensively. I still don't think he's better than Iguodala or while Wallace is often labeled a G-F, he will always guard the other teams' best offensive player regardless of if he's a guard or forward.


> Because it was probably the most embarrassing game in team history and the best example of the complete lack of effort that every opponent showed the Celtics last year. As long as it was happening against actual NBA teams, a good portion of Celtic fandom could convince themselves that Boston still had the greatest accumulation of young talent in NBA history. After that game a lot of them jumped off the bandwagon in disgust. Atnalta wasn't some exception, they invested about three minutes of effort in the second quarter, another four to five in the third and the same in the fourth then went on cruise control the rest of the way. They weren't the exception, they were the rule. Well, OK, on second thought, they were an exception. Being that they were the Atnalta Skwah they actually put forth more effort than most of the other teams Boston lost to.


It was 2 weeks after TA went down, and the team had no veterans on the roster at all, and 3 of their 4 best players weren't even suited up. You're using the team in its worst position to act as if it were at it's best, and just was toyed with. You're using it also to act as if what TA did on the floor shouldn't be counted. It's pitiful. Honestly. The Cavs were trying hard to win when TA was there, that's for sure. Using one game to act as if the entire season was like that just doesn't work. It's a joke.



> You do realise that the Celtics actually got better after Wally went down the first time, and got worse the moment he returned, right?


All three weren't really on the floor together. You'll try and make this JUST about Wally, but he can contribute well when the others are also out there with him. After November, Wally didn't spend any time on the floor with Pierce at all. The point isn't to say one or two guys, it's a team thing, and the team was not really given an opportunity to play together at full strength. So, when you take all that out, and the lack of experience, the lack of your best players, the lack of a couple of your better defensive players are all out, I don't think it was too much of a surprise that the team was losing so much.


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## Celtics_Fan (Sep 1, 2007)

Jenness said:


> Tony Allen never struck me as a great defender, or even a good one. He was a great one in college but that hasn't carried into the pros. I'm just speculating but I think the reputation that preceded him into the nba, as well as having great athleticism and, hey, that's supposed to be his role, makes some people overrate his defense.
> 
> All I know is that he's gotten scored upon with regularity against the likes of Bryant, Lebron, Carmelo, Wade. Sure it's tough for anyone to stop those guys but Allen gets eaten up and a great defender should make his reputation against the top scorers in the league, not against limited players like Adam Morrison and Matt Carroll, both of whom he's defended marvelously. He's good at chasing people around the court around screens but against guys who are just as athletic and bigger, who can face him up, he struggles.
> 
> Anyway, it'd be nice if he can make a comeback and commence playing at least 80 percent of the level he was playing at before he got injured. The celtics could use some good backup guards.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2006121502

It's sort of a situation like this, where defensive stats and looking at boxscores won't tell the whole story. Carmelo had a tremendous statistical game and it would make TA look like he's got the defensive ability of Mark Price if we didn't know any better. Still, it was his defense that helped, working him all game and wearing him down until Melo didn't score at the end when they needed him the most, while TA made a defensive play that closed out the game. Great offensive players are going to put up points, good defenders make them work for it. Carmelo is a very, very special offensive player in my opinion. Just fantastic.


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## Jenness (Apr 18, 2007)

Celtics_Fan said:


> http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2006121502
> 
> It's sort of a situation like this, where defensive stats and looking at boxscores won't tell the whole story. Carmelo had a tremendous statistical game and it would make TA look like he's got the defensive ability of Mark Price if we didn't know any better. Still, it was his defense that helped, working him all game and wearing him down until Melo didn't score at the end when they needed him the most, while TA made a defensive play that closed out the game. Great offensive players are going to put up points, good defenders make them work for it. Carmelo is a very, very special offensive player in my opinion. Just fantastic.



I know boxscores and other stuff can be misleading but I watched that game, Carmelo was fantastic and it wasn't Allen's defense that made the difference. It was his scoring, along with that of Pierce and Jefferson and JR Smith's horrible defense. Really, the only times I've seen Allen play shutdown defense is against athletically below-average players like Morrison and Carroll. Against bigger athletic players, I think his shaky balance and not-so-great basketball instincts make him vulnerable.


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## Celtics_Fan (Sep 1, 2007)

Jenness said:


> I know boxscores and other stuff can be misleading but I watched that game, Carmelo was fantastic and it wasn't Allen's defense that made the difference. It was his scoring, along with that of Pierce and Jefferson and JR Smith's horrible defense. Really, the only times I've seen Allen play shutdown defense is against athletically below-average players like Morrison and Carroll. Against bigger athletic players, I think his shaky balance and not-so-great basketball instincts make him vulnerable.


Unfortunately, Boston Herald takes away the old articles, because Melo himself commented on how Allen made him work for everything. Melo didn't do much at the end of the game, I guess we'll have differing opinions on why. I think TA's tenacity defensively was a big help. It's cool though. I will be one of the few here that thinks TA is a good defender.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Why od the Celtics keep getting more backup sgs'sfs when theres a gaping hole at pg and C as well as pf. If you think Rondo is good enough to start for a championship contender then your wrong. And Eddie "brick" House playing backup pg?????????? not to mention Glen davis and Scott Pollard 1 a rookie other a scrub.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Why od the Celtics keep getting more backup sgs'sfs when theres a gaping hole at pg and C as well as pf. If you think Rondo is good enough to start for a championship contender then your wrong. And Eddie "brick" House playing backup pg?????????? not to mention Glen davis and Scott Pollard 1 a rookie other a scrub.




riiiiiiiight...talk about all our scrubs...forget about those guys named pierce, garnett and allen...they wont do much this year


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Jenness said:


> I know boxscores and other stuff can be misleading but I watched that game, Carmelo was fantastic and it wasn't Allen's defense that made the difference. It was his scoring, along with that of Pierce and Jefferson and JR Smith's horrible defense. Really, the only times I've seen Allen play shutdown defense is against athletically below-average players like Morrison and Carroll. Against bigger athletic players, I think his shaky balance and not-so-great basketball instincts make him vulnerable.


It's really of no use. When you point out that Carmelo lit Boston up for 42 points, he'll just say "But Tony made him work for every point and limited his efficiency!!!" When you point out that that Carmelo's aFG% for the game was .597 he'll retreat to "But he wore him down all game and took him out of the fourth quarter!!!" and when you point out that Carmelo lit Boston up for 16 points in the final quarter he'll make some other specious claim to support his position that Tony is a top 10 NBA defender when there's nothing much to back it except his own emerald-jaded observations.


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## Celtics_Fan (Sep 1, 2007)

Like I already said, the numbers will show that TA didn't defend him well, and actually seeing the game, I think you'd see he did actually make him work for those buckets, Carmelo even said it himself he was impressed with TA's defense. He didn't have to, and he did. sidenote: TA also made himself a great offensive threat in that game.

But you guys ARE right, the stats in that game made TA look like a poor defender, I get that. I feel that stats don't always tell the story, which is also something I said before. But you guys don't think he made him work for those points? I guess not... 

He did help stop him at the end of the game, and it's not just me making that opinion..."On defense, Allen kept Carmelo Anthony from single-handedly winning the game for the Nuggets." Not my words there.

But anyway, like I said..you guys can say he's not a good defender in this case, you got the numbers to back yourselves up, I suppose. You don't really need to watch a game when you got stats, and you don't have to take into account the ability of Anthony either, I guess.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I watched every single minute of last year's agony. I am more fanatical about watching them than the self-proclaimed "better fans". It's why I know what was happening on the court.


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## Celtics_Fan (Sep 1, 2007)

I think the losses have probably made you negatively biased towards certain players, it's obvious in Rondo, and I see it with TA as well. I will totally agree with you that Iguodala is a good, possibly even great defender, but I've seen Paul Pierce have his way with him at times; pulled off a triple-double on him even. I wouldn't call Iggy a bad defender for it any less than I would TA for how he defended Melo. I know that Iguodala did what he could against PP, but there are going to be many instances where a great offensive player still does his thing. In the case of AI and PP, you have two players of similar builds--although Iguodala's athleticism is off the charts, and probably just as strong as Pierce, while TA was at a physical disadvantage from every angle with Melo.

Eh, like I said, I feel TA's a very good defensive player, could be great, and he will still see nights like what Melo had regardless. Most defenders will against the top scorers in the NBA. You think otherwise. I doubt that will ever change.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Pierce, despite the disrespect he's shown (by casual fans), is one of the best offensive players in the NBA. Not only is he a great primary scorer, he has, for his career, done it efficiently. Even when lacking a second option (as was the case after the Wally Szczerbiak Szczuperstar trade). He reduced Andrei Kirilenko to tears once. He can pretty much score on anyone. He may not be in Bryant's or James' class, but there's no shame in that.

And I pretty objectively analyse the weaknesses of players. I am negative about Rondo's shooting because he's a horrificly bad shot. Hopefully Ray Allen's help can get him straightened out, but with three killer halfcourt players, a Chris Duhon or Charlie Bell at the 1 makes more sense. (And just accept it because as Gabe Pruitt grows to understand playing defense at the NBA level he's going to be replacing Delonte as the Golden Child.) I know Allen's not a great team defender because I watched him get caught out of position too many times over the last three years, and normally because he was gambling. He's a nice hustle guy off the bench, but the fact that he doesn't realise that is a problem.


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## Perfection (May 10, 2004)

Hopefully this article will shut up all of the people that think Jones is better than T.Allen:

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/48382/20071005/celtics_to_take_care_of_tony_allen/

I think Pierce would know better than you if T.Allen not only should play, but deserve an extension. Jones may not even make your 15-man roster.


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## Celtics_Fan (Sep 1, 2007)

I feel the same way on Carmelo Anthony in regards to your comments on Pierce's offensive talents, E.

I also don't see the objectiveness you claim to have on those players, but we see things differently; it's just like most of the topics discussed so far.


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