# Shaq trade huge mistake.



## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

If we never traded for Shaq we'd still have Odom and Caron Butler. Two young very talented guys to compliment Wade. We'd be dominating the east for years to come. Odom was a beast last night, even more than usual with the absence of Kobe. I expect him to continue that throughout the season. We really shot ourselves in the foot trading these guys away. Now instead we're stuck with a bunch of old lazy veterans. Shaq is at the end of his pitiful rope, while still eating up the salary cap. Had little to do with our championship run, and is basicly sinking the Heat's ship.


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## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

Wade, Odom, and Butler is not a title core. Not last year, not now.

Without Shaq, does Riles come back? Do we get vets like Payton and Zo on the cheap?

Don't see how you can say the trade was a mistake.


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

Odom and Butler IMO is a huge improvement over what Shaq is today... He seems like he's almost useless now.

Wade won the title almost single handedly last year. Shaq was just along for the ride.

You can't compare Butler, Odom, and Wade as they were as a team back a few years ago, b/c Wade was a rookie (still learning the game), as were Odom and Butler.

I'd say the Heat would be very deadly today with Odom and Butler, at least alot better off then where their at now.

GP is IMO is god awful. He's been bad since his days with the Lakers.


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

Diophantos said:


> Wade, Odom, and Butler is not a title core. Not last year, not now.
> 
> Without Shaq, does Riles come back? Do we get vets like Payton and Zo on the cheap?
> 
> Don't see how you can say the trade was a mistake.


Obviously we would need of found a BIG (not named Shaq, or Brian Grant) but yes, if we found a capable young center that is definately a championship caliber team, I don't see how you could say otherwise.

If Zo would still have came back is anybody's guess, but I could care less about GP. I never cared for him when he got here and never will care for him. People say he's good for his defense, but you're kidding yourself if you think he hasn't had a major drop off in that area. He's old, and pitiful, just like the majority of this Heat team. If not for Wade we'd be one of the worst teams in the league.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Diophantos said:


> Don't see how you can say the trade was a mistake.


it all depends on how you look at it. the heat sacrificed the future for a small window of being a team that could win the championship. wade, butler, odom may not be a championship core right now, but they would have been making moves to compliment that team and would be a very good playoff team. pretty much a better version of the wizards with room to improve. instead they made the trade and have one title so far to show for it. is that enough? i assume the heat management would say yes.

pretty much they traded a probably good 6 or so year run with the potential to be a championship caliber team at the end of it for a three year window of being championship caliber right now(the past two seasons and this season). if they win the champoinship this year, no way was it a mistake. if not, i think it still depends on how the players pan out before it can really be fully judged.


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## MacDanny 6 (Jun 7, 2002)

Championships since trade...

Heat - 1
Lakers - 0

Nuff said.


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

MacDanny 6 said:


> Championships since trade...
> 
> Heat - 1
> Lakers - 0
> ...


What does that have to do with Shaq though? Heat could've won the title last year w/o Shaq... the way Wade was playing in the Finals.


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## Wade2Bosh (Mar 31, 2004)

The ultimate goal in sports is winning championships. By trading for Shaq, we gave ourselves a better chance at winning it all and did last year.

That was an exciting team in Wade/Odom/Butler/Jones/Alston but not a championship contending team. During that year, we never won a road game against a team with an above .500 record.

In the two years Shaq has been here we have gone to the Eastern conference finals one year, which we easily could have won had Wade and Shaq not been injured, and won the NBA championship the next. If you would tell any GM in the league that for two years that would happen to your team, most of them would take it.

It was one ugly game we lost on tuesday but it was only game 1.


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## BigWill33176 (Dec 21, 2003)

this is a ridiculous thread

we just won a championship, and now you are panicking over one game?

let this season play out a little bit.


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

Eternal said:


> What does that have to do with Shaq though? Heat could've won the title last year w/o Shaq... the way Wade was playing in the Finals.


Has nothing to do with Shaq obviously. Just a poor argument, because there really isn't one. Anybody with half a brain will tell you Wade is 100% responsible for the Heat's championship.

And no i'm not panicking over one game. Shaq left of where he did at the end, and and majority of last year.

You can attribute the championship to Shaq all you want. But Shaq did **** to help us win it. Don't kid yourself.

Shaq should be thanking Dwyane for winning him a 4th championship.

Riley traded away the future of the Miami Heat for a big, fat, egocentric, center who is very close to being D-O-N-E DONE.


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

wade2shaq said:


> The ultimate goal in sports is winning championships. By trading for Shaq, we gave ourselves a better chance at winning it all and did last year.
> 
> That was an exciting team in Wade/Odom/Butler/Jones/Alston but not a championship contending team. During that year, we never won a road game against a team with an above .500 record.
> 
> ...


You take that team, add a decent Center, and we would be championship bound. Look what that team with Grant at center did in 03-04 with a rookie Wade. Wade of the present with that team? I shutter to think how good we could have been.

Again this isn't because of one game, albeit a disgusting decimation of us at home, that's just not it. Shaq sucked throughout the playoffs, and he's picking up where he left off. Do you guys realize what we're paying this man for this abysmal play?

I can assure you my opinion is not based on game one. I'm sorry that nobody thinks trading away our future wasn't a very stupid idea, but that's what I think.


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## KingOfTheHeatians (Jul 22, 2005)

We would NOT have won a championship without Shaq. This is the most ridiculous thread ever.


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## Wade2Bosh (Mar 31, 2004)

Heated said:


> You take that team, add a decent Center, and we would be championship bound. Look what that team with Grant at center did in 03-04 with a rookie Wade. Wade of the present with that team? I shutter to think how good we could have been.


Oh yeah, I remember that offseason. I believe the good young centers that were out their in free agency were Michael Olowakandi and Marc Blount.

You want to know how that Miami Heat team would look? Just check out the Washington Wizards.
Arenas-Wade
Butler-Butler
Jamison-Odom

Pretty much the same trio.


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## Vinsane (Feb 27, 2005)

Heated said:


> If we never traded for Shaq we'd still have Odom and Caron Butler. Two young very talented guys to compliment Wade. We'd be dominating the east for years to come. Odom was a beast last night, even more than usual with the absence of Kobe. I expect him to continue that throughout the season. We really shot ourselves in the foot trading these guys away. Now instead we're stuck with a bunch of old lazy veterans. Shaq is at the end of his pitiful rope, while still eating up the salary cap. Had little to do with our championship run, and is basicly sinking the Heat's ship.


without shaq there wouldn't have been a ring in Miami


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

You're right. Shaq is nothing but a salary cap killer. He has no impact on the game whatsoever. If I was the starting center of the Heat, I'd have a ring too. And I'd play for much less. The idiot management should have signed me. Now they must buy out Shaq, because the very thought of him on this team is disgusting. He is a disgrace to the sport. **** you, Shaquille.


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## Vinsane (Feb 27, 2005)

Eternal said:


> What does that have to do with Shaq though? Heat could've won the title last year w/o Shaq... the way Wade was playing in the Finals.


But would they have got there without Shaq


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

KingOfTheHeatians said:


> We would NOT have won a championship without Shaq. This is the most ridiculous thread ever.


How do you figure Miss Cleo? I'm confident that Odom and Caron would have contributed much more last year and years to come, than Shaq did. Not to mention they can shoot FTs. And don't collect fouls like it's the goal of the game. Way to assume though, good job. If this thread was as stupid as you say you'd be able to argue with something better than "Oh well we won a championship."
D-Wade won a championship for this team. You guys are delusional.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Heated said:


> How do you figure Miss Cleo? I'm confident that Odom and Caron would have contributed much more last year and years to come, than Shaq did. Not to mention they can shoot FTs. And don't collect fouls like it's the goal of the game. Way to assume though, good job. If this thread was as stupid as you say you'd be able to argue with something better than "Oh well we won a championship."
> D-Wade won a championship for this team. You guys are delusional.


If the Mavericks had Shaq, would they have won?


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

Chan said:


> If the Mavericks had Shaq, would they have won?


Depends on what they traded for him. We traded Caron, Odom and Grant, + a 1strounder. We get all that back and the Mavs lose some quality players. Lets say we take Howard and Terry away from them, thats about the equivilent. Yes, i'd call the Heat the favorites then, sure. Would they have won? I don't know i'm not psychic. Would they have just as good of a chance after taking the trade back? Sure. And we'd have a future. Lets not forget who Shaq pretty much got shut down by in the finals, Dampier/Diop.


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## Miamiballer2k5 (Jun 29, 2005)

this is a retarded thread. Because of the Shaq trade we were able to get vets to come to our team for the shaq discount and made moves like getting Walker, JWill and Posey to fit around Shaq and Wade. I doubt we would have won a championship with Odom, Butler etc. (And I love those guys). We won a championship and that was the point in getting Shaq. So even if he sucks the rest of his career. The trade was a success because we won.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Heated said:


> Depends on what they traded for him. We traded Caron, Odom and Grant, + a 1strounder. We get all that back and the Mavs lose some quality players. Lets say we take Howard and Terry away from them, thats about the equivilent. Yes, i'd call the Heat the favorites then, sure. Would they have won? I don't know i'm not psychic. Would they have just as good of a chance after taking the trade back? Sure. And we'd have a future. Lets not forget who Shaq pretty much got shut down by in the finals, Dampier/Diop.


It doesn't work that way. The Heat got to the Finals after the tragic loss of Butler, Odom, Grant, and a 1st round pick for that piece of **** called Shaq. They are already at that terrible disadvantage, yet they overcome all that adversity and somehow win a championship. That's heart, man. The Mavericks got to the Finals without suffering the crippling loss of Terry and Howard for Shaq. Those spolied brats have it good. It is with that wonderful roster that they made the Finals. If you swap out Terry and Howard for Shaq, and they didn't have a supporting cast with the same talent level as the Heat, they would have never gotten to the Finals in the first place. They simply can't handle that loss.


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

Miamiballer2k5 said:


> this is a retarded thread. Because of the Shaq trade we were able to get vets to come to our team for the shaq discount and made moves like getting Walker, JWill and Posey to fit around Shaq and Wade. I doubt we would have won a championship with Odom, Butler etc. (And I love those guys). We won a championship and that was the point in getting Shaq. So even if he sucks the rest of his career. The trade was a success because we won.


That's just another baseless assumption because we had a quality team. so still it would be an attractive option to those guys. I'm sure we'd have added quality players with the money that we're currently paying Shaq if those other guys didnt come to Miami.. 

You guys can assume all day but Caron and Odom contribute much more to their respective teams than Shaq does in Miami.

Oh by the way, you guys are hurting my feelings calling my thread stupid. I just can't take it. Please stop. :laugh: :clown:


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

So Heated, if the Shaq trade was never made, Miami still would've won the championship this year?


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

Vinsane said:


> But would they have got there without Shaq


Don't see why not...


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

Chan said:


> It doesn't work that way. The Heat got to the Finals after the tragic loss of Butler, Odom, Grant, and a 1st round pick for that piece of **** called Shaq. They are already at that terrible disadvantage, yet they overcome all that adversity and somehow win a championship. *That's heart, man.* The Mavericks got to the Finals without suffering the crippling loss of Terry and Howard for Shaq. Those spolied brats have it good. It is with that wonderful roster that they made the Finals. *If you swap out Terry and Howard for Shaq, and they didn't have a supporting cast with the same talent level as the Heat, they would have never gotten to the Finals in the first place. They simply can't handle that loss.*


To the first bold. That's *WADE* man.

To the second. Thanks for making my point for me. Terry and Howard for Shaq would be insane right? So why is Caron and Odom, equally as good players a better trade? 

The Heat won the title because we're fortunate enough to have the guy named Wade. If it wasn't for Wade seriously outplaying Dirk in the finals, the Mavs take the title home.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

You can't get one of those shiny trophies for free.You have to make short term moves.You certainly aren't going to get anyone else to give you a superstar with 15 years left in the tank.This is the way it is,you throw the dice and hope you don't crap out.You don't want to take chances...go be a freaking accountant.


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

this is rediculous....
there's one aim for nba teams, to win a championship.
they made a trade for shaq, and then... as promised he delivered (obiously with help) the championship rings to miami.

so what if it wasnt a long term plan, they decided to go the direct route and try to win now, and they did.. and they have another chance to do so this season.

ignore the hate miami fans, the shaq trade was great for the team and the city


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

we knew this trade wasn't for the future....and its going to be painful when shaq is getting 20 million 3 years from now.

but, this trade was to get a title, and we accomplished that......good trade imo


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## DBurks2818 (May 18, 2005)

Is this an imposter? Heated's usually got a much better understanding of the game than he's displayed in this thread. I can't believe people still don't understand the impact that Shaq has on the game. Obviously you didn't see how many times Shaq still drew more double/triple teams then Wade on Tuesday and kicked it out... to GP, Walker, and Quinn. Brick Brick Brick. If the team had some reliable shooters other than Wade and J-Will this thread probably wouldn't even have been made (I'm not buying game 1 not having any effect on Heated's motivation for making it).

I'll just treat this like REEF's "This season is a failure" topic of last season. If Miami repeats this year I'm going to bump this topic every day of the off-season and link it to every other Heat message board that I know of, just to see how many fans agree with you and value the "potential" of a Wade-Odom-Butler core over actually winning championships and making history. Since when is winning not enough anyway?


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

DBurks2818 said:


> Is this an imposter? Heated's usually got a much better understanding of the game than he's displayed in this thread. I can't believe people still don't understand the impact that Shaq has on the game. Obviously you didn't see how many times Shaq still drew more double/triple teams then Wade on Tuesday and kicked it out... to GP, Walker, and Quinn. Brick Brick Brick. If the team had some reliable shooters other than Wade and J-Will this thread probably wouldn't even have been made *(I'm not buying game 1 not having any effect on Heated's motivation for making it).*
> I'll just treat this like REEF's "This season is a failure" topic of last season. If Miami repeats this year I'm going to bump this topic every day of the off-season and link it to every other Heat message board that I know of, just to see how many fans agree with you and value the "potential" of a Wade-Odom-Butler core over actually winning championships and making history. Since when is winning not enough anyway?


Well buy it. I was saying the same thing last year. Hell I was ready to trade Shaq for just Odom. You guys can insult me or call my thread stupid. Thats cool, i'm not that fragile. But the fact (in my mind) of the matter is, Odom and Caron together amount to MUCH more than Shaq does on the BBall court.

I do not buy that Shaq coming here is the reason we won a title. That's hogwash. Sure that was the reason FOR the trade, but that didn't really work out as planned. More like we traded away our future for Shaq, but won the title despite him.

Shaq is becoming a liability on defense. He can't shoot FTs, he has trouble creating space, and because of the new rules, he's on the bench almost as much as he's in the game because of constant foul trouble.

We are not getting the bang for our buck with this guy. And we absoultely would be with Caron and Lamar. 

I'm not saying that Shaq completely sucks. He's just not half as good as he should be, or close to being able offer the contribution that Odom and Caron would be.

This is hardly as "season is a failure topic" i've NEVER.. EVER said the season was over last year. I acutally made fun of people who did so. So feel free not to stick me or my thread with a BS tag like this. We can win a championship again. But it won't be because of Shaq anymore than it was last year.


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## DBurks2818 (May 18, 2005)

It's not a 'Season is a failure' topic, but it's just as mis-informed. Without Shaq, Riley and Zo do not come back (Zo probably goes to a more experienced team like San Antonio or Detroit in '05), you're still stuck with an almost-equally debillitating contract with Brian Grant, and Wade does not develop as quickly without Shaq's leadership and experience. He does not. Not this quickly.

With all these factors: A still-learning coach in SVG, Odom's/Grant's/Jones' contracts (although maybe Riley trades Eddie's contract after '05 again), no interior toughness due to the lack of free agent big men the last couple of years forcing Miami to get *lucky, hopefully* through the draft... You probably have a very similar team to NJ, with even less experience. Talented on the perimeter, but years away from competing for a championship. 

My problem with this thread is how you focus on the finals and just disregard the rest of the postseason. The rest of the team (especially Shaq) supported DW VERY well the first 3 rounds of the playoffs, against stronger defensive teams than they faced in the finals.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

The trade was good in the short term (a championship), but will prove to be bad in the long term. However, as Diable said, Riley took a gamble and it payed off, so I really don't get the problem. Now, arguing over whether a core of Wade, Odom and Butler would have made it to the championship game is entirely a subjective argument. On one hand, the last time we saw them together was in the 03' season (Wade's rookie year) and there is no way to know how that core would have developed, but on the the other hand, there are other teams who've had a solid core since the after the 03 season (Pistons, Wizards, Cavs, Mavericks, etc) and they have won nothing.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

If you seriously believe that Shaq had little impact on the championship last year b/c his numbers were low, you simply don't understand basketball. Even this year, if you think Shaq is insignificant to this team, you are a complete fool. Any coach is gameplanning for both Wade and Shaq. You have to adjust your defense to handle Shaq inside, and this benefits everyone (including DWade). If anything, Shaq is the best $20 million decoy.

I'm just sitting and laughing at some of these threads. Jump off the bandwagon now, because we went through this before and I don't want people trying to jump back on again. We lost ONE GAME! RELAX!


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## mippo (Apr 27, 2005)

It's not a small window of opportunity... It's a small window with the current roster. Even a less effective Shaq is still enough in the center that the combination of Wade + Shaq = contender. That alone is going to attract players looking to play for a contender. 

Frankly, I think Shaq will decline in effectiveness over the next 3 years, but it will still be enough that the Heat will be able to go deep into the playoffs each year. While he might be getting paid more then he is worth in the last 1-2 years of his contract, the Heat will still be able to sign others for less then they are worth looking to play for a contender so we can still contend as Shaq declines. 

At the end of 3 years, we will have a lot of salary cap room to go out and sign some top talent through free agency to pair with Wade and contend. Basically, Wade = contender. The Shaq trade allowed us to utilize Wade and instantly contend, whereas going the other route it would've taken a few years longer which we can still do as long as the management makes the proper moves in the future and if Riley is making those moves, I feel pretty confident they'll be made.


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## sic_D (May 5, 2005)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> Any coach is gameplanning for both Wade and Shaq. You have to adjust your defense to handle Shaq inside, and this benefits everyone (including DWade). If anything, Shaq is the best $20 million decoy.


Well he is a good decoy if he is on the court not on the bench. Getting into early foul trouble in even 50% of the games should not be acceptable to the coach and he should let that be known to Shaq.


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> If you seriously believe that Shaq had little impact on the championship last year b/c his numbers were low, you simply don't understand basketball. Even this year, if you think Shaq is insignificant to this team, you are a complete fool. Any coach is gameplanning for both Wade and Shaq. You have to adjust your defense to handle Shaq inside, and this benefits everyone (including DWade). If anything, Shaq is the best $20 million decoy.
> 
> I'm just sitting and laughing at some of these threads. Jump off the bandwagon now, because we went through this before and I don't want people trying to jump back on again. We lost ONE GAME! RELAX!


Relax? I'm not getting excited, but clearly you are. Get off Shaq's NUTS.And there you go with that tired bandwagon crap again. Shut the hell up with that. Nobody wants to hear that trash just because they don't agree with your opinion. I've been a Heat fan for 10 years. 

A 20 Millon dollar decoy as you put it is not better than two world class young players. My opinion won't change on that matter.

I don't hate Shaq. But simply put, he's just not getting the job done. He'll be lucky to avg. 19/9 again this year. Meanwhile Odom in LA is avging 28/8/11 in 2 games w/o Kobe. Gee. Caron 23/2/6. Yeah, I miss those guys. Yeah our future looks bleak right now. But so what, all is well because we won *A* championship. Call me greedy but I want more than that!
I'm ecstatic that we won a championship, but still i am very concerned with *the future* of this team.

It is clear that I am in the minority with this opinion for whatever reason. The only argument i've heard is because Shaq draws doubles, and Shaq is the reason Riley Walker Posey Zo and JWill are ALL here. I don't know how accurate that is. But if you want to think Shaq would have a bigger impact than Odom/Butler thats your prerogative. I'm not gonna change anybody's mind. So cheers to that. :cheers:


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## KingOfTheHeatians (Jul 22, 2005)

Worst. Thread. Ever.


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## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

i miss those days where we had an energetic, young team. But to say bringing Shaq was a mistake (especially after winning the title) is silly. Sure he didnt contribute as much as Wade, but he served as bait out there freeing up other guys. 
As of now thats all Shaq is--bait. He just stands in the post and commands attention meanwhile our other guys are open. thats how we won it last season, i dont see why this formula wouldnt work this season.

If you ask me, we would not be celebrating a title had it not been for Shaq. Yes we would have a nice team with Odom and Butler, but that wouldve been ECF caliber, not championship caliber.


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## Real (Aug 3, 2005)

I can't believe this thread even exists.

The Miami Heat won the 2006 NBA Championship. And the Shaq trade is a huge mistake?


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## ToddMacCulloch11 (May 31, 2003)

Shaq isn't what he used to be, but he still commands a ton of attention. Wade was the best player for the team in the finals, but they wouldn't have won without Shaq.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

Haha, and even worse, a Heat fan started it.

I bet you weren't complaining when you were celebrating like 4 months ago.


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## DBurks2818 (May 18, 2005)

Heated said:


> A 20 Millon dollar decoy as you put it is not better than two world class young players. My opinion won't change on that matter.
> 
> I don't hate Shaq. But simply put, he's just not getting the job done. He'll be lucky to avg. 19/9 again this year. Meanwhile Odom in LA is avging 28/8/11 in 2 games w/o Kobe. Gee. Caron 23/2/6. Yeah, I miss those guys. Yeah our future looks bleak right now. But so what, all is well because we won *A* championship. Call me greedy but I want more than that!
> I'm ecstatic that we won a championship, but still i am very concerned with *the future* of this team.


Oops, there you go putting weight in the first games of the season. Wow, *3* good games against 3 of the worst defensive teams in the league. These guys are legends! Be fair here. Phoenix is the only team with comparable interior defense to Chicago, and they're still not close. And if Shaq had played against the soft, slow defenses of Troy Murphy and Mike Dunleavy in Golden State, and Z and Gooden in Cleveland he'd have had a great game too.



> It is clear that I am in the minority with this opinion for whatever reason. The only argument i've heard is because Shaq draws doubles, and Shaq is the reason Riley Walker Posey Zo and JWill are ALL here. I don't know how accurate that is.


Very accurate, and *you know it*. Even if SVG decided to leave again, Riley would've found a younger coach for the younger team he had. There would've been no reason to step in.



> But if you want to think Shaq would have a bigger impact than Odom/Butler thats your prerogative. I'm not gonna change anybody's mind. So cheers to that. :cheers:


I think everyone here does. I think about 98% of Heat fans don't have Kobe-itis and realize that the big fella still *makes the game easier* for everyone else, *including* D-Wade because defenses *still* won't sag of off Shaq to help on penetration, giving Wade tons of 1-on-1 opportunities to draw fouls.

I honestly just don't understand why you made this topic. I'm going to go back to comparing this topic to REEF's, because they're almost identical: They followed a big loss where the topic creator denied the loss having much effect on his motivation for making the topic, he came to a conclusion about the season before the season was *even close* to being over, and he acted like a spoiled fan (which you've basically admitted to being, with "But so what, all is well because we won *A* championship. Call me greedy but I want more than that!"). You're just usually so much better than this. It's like a random bandwagonner made this thread.


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## UD40 (May 12, 2005)

Without Shaq this is team would be in trouble. No Riles, no Shimmy, no JP, no ring. There's no way that D. Wade would've signed an extention with us if we didn't have O'Neal. Shaq has directly and in-directly, given this team some of it's brightest days.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Real said:


> I can't believe this thread even exists.
> 
> The Miami Heat won the 2006 NBA Championship. And the Shaq trade is a huge mistake?


is one ring enough when you would have given up a team with the potential to win more than one(the wade/butler/odom combo is slightly upgraded version of the wizards and they would have been making moves to fit longterm with them instead of signing short term veterans for shaq's small window)?



UD40 said:


> Without Shaq this is team would be in trouble. No Riles, no Shimmy, no JP, no ring. There's no way that D. Wade would've signed an extention with us if we didn't have O'Neal. Shaq has directly and in-directly, given this team some of it's brightest days.


because the team was in trouble before shaq got there? before shaq, the heat were a good young team that was already in the playoffs and only going to improve. why would wade have not signed that extension without shaq?


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## UD40 (May 12, 2005)

What I'm trying to say is, Shaq influenced Wade so much in the past few years, almost like a brother and a father. So who knows if D. Wade would've signed an extention if Shaq wasn't around? There is no doubt this team was good before Shaq, but it got better when he came. There's no denying it.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

UD40 said:


> What I'm trying to say is, Shaq influenced Wade so much in the past few years, almost like a brother and a father. So who knows if D. Wade would've signed an extention if Shaq wasn't around? There is no doubt this team was good before Shaq, but it got better when he came. There's no denying it.


there is also no denying that the team would have gotten better anyway without shaq. the question is would they have gotten as good. i'm really not sure, but i think it was possible which is why i think this thread poses a legitimate question. if the heat could have been this good without shaq with the core they had, then the trade was a mistake. if not, they did good winning a title while they could.


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## UD40 (May 12, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> there is also no denying that the team would have gotten better anyway without shaq. the question is would they have gotten as good. i'm really not sure, but i think it was possible which is why i think this thread poses a legitimate question. if the heat could have been this good without shaq with the core they had, then the trade was a mistake. if not, they did good winning a title while they could.


The team would've been good, but it would lack a lagit big man to battle with people like Ben Wallace or JO in playoff series. A line-up of Rafer/Wade/Odom/UD/? would be good, but there would be that gap at the 5-spot. We could contened out East easly, but in long series our thin four and five spots would show.


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## Pain5155 (May 28, 2006)

they were 1 win away from the finals in 05, and won it all in 06. End of Discussion.


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## blh5387 (Apr 6, 2006)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> we knew this trade wasn't for the future....and its going to be painful when shaq is getting 20 million 3 years from now.
> 
> but, this trade was to get a title, and we accomplished that......good trade imo


oh man. shaq 3 years from now is going to be AWFUL. signing that guy to a contract of 20 mill a year was the worst mistake ever. and that was after shaq "so nicely" decided to give up his 30 mill a year contract. i'm sorry, guys, but the fact is, we kind of did f*** ourselves with this trade. Yes, we had a couple GREAT years. Yes, we won the freaking NBA title. But look at us now. There's nothing up from here except for Wade. I mean, we definitely should have made some moves this offseason. Get rid of Walker and Payton, to start. I know it's just been 1 game, but the fact is, we reached the mountain peak last year, and we're now going to be on the descent for a long, long time.


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## blh5387 (Apr 6, 2006)

Heated said:


> Relax? I'm not getting excited, but clearly you are. Get off Shaq's NUTS.And there you go with that tired bandwagon crap again. Shut the hell up with that. Nobody wants to hear that trash just because they don't agree with your opinion. I've been a Heat fan for 10 years.
> 
> A 20 Millon dollar decoy as you put it is not better than two world class young players. My opinion won't change on that matter.
> 
> ...


I agree. And to those saying worst thread ever, how so? The goal of a team really should not be to hit 1 championship, and then just go along with it and say "whatever". The goal is to continually stay the best you can possibly be. And that's not possible with a group of over-the-hill players. We need some fresh guys on the team. Think about the FUTURE guys. We won a championship, yes, but that's last year! Put it behind you and look ahead.


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

UD40 said:


> What I'm trying to say is, Shaq influenced Wade so much in the past few years, almost like a brother and a father. So who knows if D. Wade would've signed an extention if Shaq wasn't around? There is no doubt this team was good before Shaq, but it got better when he came. There's no denying it.


We would have got better with what we had, we'd have built on that. That was a very solid core of players. Instead we tossed it all for Shaq. And we won a championship. That's great. But i'm having trouble understanding why people think Odom/Caron/Wade wasn't a formula for success. You add a solid big, and a PG and that's a championship contender to me. Say we still got JWill, or another solid PG like him. After what we did in 03-04 with a rookie D-Wade I don't understand how anyone couldn't think we were well on our way. The team was beginning to gel, playing awesome run and gun ball.

I am not downplaying our championship, just Shaq's involvement with it, and the future of this team. 

I really hope Simien and Dorrell can come in and be the players we drafted them to be. But right now Riley apparently doesn't think they deserve minutes for whatever reason. That's concerning that 3rd and 2nd year 1st rounders are seeing no minutes.

I think most of you just refuse to be objective. Simply because Shaq IS on our team and we DID make the trade and that's NOT gonna change.

Say we didn't make the trade, and we built on what we had, like in my theory, then someone said "Not making the Shaq trade was a huge mistake" they'd get scolded off the forum. 

What it boils down to is you guys thinking Shaq has a semi-large role in this championship, and I say Wade is 90% responsible, and basicly did it with little help. I guess Shaq's "decoying" is worth about 5%, because he clearly wasn't making many plays, just being a 20 million dollar decoy.



blh5387 said:


> I agree. And to those saying worst thread ever, how so? The goal of a team really should not be to hit 1 championship, and then just go along with it and say "whatever". The goal is to continually stay the best you can possibly be. And that's not possible with a group of over-the-hill players. We need some fresh guys on the team. Think about the FUTURE guys. We won a championship, yes, but that's last year! Put it behind you and look ahead.


Thank you sir. I figured i'd get blasted for this thread, but not this bad. I guess some choose to downplay Odom and Butler's worth, of course, now that they're gone. When they were here HEAT fans loved them guys. Well, I still love them guys, and miss them playing for us.


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## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

Heated said:


> We would have got better with what we had, we'd have built on that. That was a very solid core of players. Instead we tossed it all for Shaq. And we won a championship. That's great. But i'm having trouble understanding why people think Odom/Caron/Wade wasn't a formula for success. You add a solid big, and a PG and that's a championship contender to me. Say we still got JWill, or another solid PG like him. After what we did in 03-04 with a rookie D-Wade I don't understand how anyone couldn't think we were well on our way. The team was beginning to gel, playing awesome run and gun ball.


I loved that team as well, and I loved the style of ball they played. But as of now, they'd be a young, perimeter oriented team with no shot-blocking or interior presence. They would be very good, but I don't think they would've won it all last year, I don't think they would've been championship contenders the last two years, I don't think they could've beaten Detroit or Dallas the last few years, and I don't think they'd be serious contenders right now.

Seriously, how much better is that team than the current Arenas/Butler/Jamison Wizards (which won 42 games last year)? Than the Kobe/Butler/Odom Lakers that won 36 games a few years back?

Over the next few years, the current Heat may decline as Shaq starts to age and stop earning his large paycheck. With some smart GMing and good drafting, it should be possible to add some youth to this team and continue to go deep into the playoffs with Wade.

I just wouldn't be so confident that a Wade/Butler/Odom core was surely going all the way, when the graveyard of NBA history is littered with very talented perimeter teams who had trouble rebounding and shot-blocking.


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## Dwyane Wade (Oct 12, 2004)

Shaq helped get us a SHIP, which is the ulitmate goal. in five years would you wnat to look back at this miami heat team as a GOOD team or a CHAMPIONSHIP team, personally i would want to look at them as a championship team...


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## Dwyane Wade (Oct 12, 2004)

UD40 said:


> What I'm trying to say is, Shaq influenced Wade so much in the past few years, almost like a brother and a father. So who knows if D. Wade would've signed an extention if Shaq wasn't around? There is no doubt this team was good before Shaq, but it got better when he came. There's no denying it.


Exactly, he brought confidence to WAde, and helped him become a superstar!


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Heated said:


> To the first bold. That's *WADE* man.
> 
> To the second. Thanks for making my point for me. Terry and Howard for Shaq would be insane right? So why is Caron and Odom, equally as good players a better trade?
> 
> The Heat won the title because we're fortunate enough to have the guy named Wade. If it wasn't for Wade seriously outplaying Dirk in the finals, the Mavs take the title home.


A team with an average PG and SF, with a frontcourt of Shaq and Dirk won't make the finals?


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## BullSoxChicagosFinest (Oct 22, 2005)

Wasn't there a draft pick too? Who was it, Farmar?

I am not picking a side either way, but come on, don't just bring 'we won the title, good trade/stupid thread' to the table. The thread starter is not a moron, it's obvious his point is that the Heat would be in a similar (actually better with the future implications) situation without the trade being made


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## BullSoxChicagosFinest (Oct 22, 2005)

Diophantos said:


> I loved that team as well, and I loved the style of ball they played. But as of now, they'd be a young, perimeter oriented team with no shot-blocking or interior presence.


Who says no deal would have been made to address that?


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## REEF_DA_CHIEF (Jun 19, 2005)

1. This thread should be closed.
2. Outsiders who venture in here with a negative opinion of our team's makeup should only look long and hard at the 10 karat diamond studded championship hardware that adorns even the likes of Jason Kapono. 
3. Losing by 42 is no joke but Miami did not give an effort. Bulls revealed their entire playbook to win this game while Miami exposed 0 plays from 06-07 Heat playbook. When Chris Quinn was placed in the game early we knew Riley didnt take this game seriously.
4. Look beyond the stats where Shaq is concerned and look at the aesthetic factors. Shaq is the anchor that brings everyone's talent to the table. Wade was already on his way to super stardom from his rookie years but Shaq dissuaded much of the pressure from Wade when Shaq was acquired. This gave Wade even more autonomy to do what he does best. 
5. Had Shaq not been on this team, Van Gundy might have still called it quits and Ron Rothstein would have been coach and the Heat would have been seen as what the Bulls are today, "Almost championship ready."


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

REEF_DA_CHIEF said:


> 3. Losing by 42 is no joke but Miami did not give an effort. Bulls revealed their entire playbook to win this game while Miami exposed 0 plays from 06-07 Heat playbook. When Chris Quinn was placed in the game early we knew Riley didnt take this game seriously.


I didn't watch the game though because none of the channels I have provided that game. But by looking at the score, by looking at all the vets that wanted a championship ring direly for once (Zo, GP, Fatoine, Shaq without Kobe), and by looking at that quote, I thought the Heat wasn't taking the game seriously. I think they wouldn't even take this season seriously either, maybe down the home stretch.

A championship ring is the ultimate goal, and the Heat is the owner of the ring. What more do you want?


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## DBurks2818 (May 18, 2005)

Who cares about the future? Worry about the future when the future gets here. For now, worry about the present. You don't win championships in the future, today. *You win them in the future*. Teams that worry about the future do not win championships in the present. 

Now, with all the future talk aside... Just relax, enjoy the championship that your team just won and let Riley worry about the future. Not you.

Oops, that was the last one :x


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## PartisanRanger (Oct 24, 2004)

Anyone who says that Shaq did not have an intimate role in securing the '05-'06 championship for Miami is lying. Would your average, decent center be able to draw double-teams like Shaq did, pulling attention away from Wade? Would he be able to put up a solid 20/9 all season? Provide veteran leadership and support to a new squad? The answer to all of these is no. Even with Odom and Butler still in Miami, without Shaq it's just not happening.

Wade was the more important of the two in the '05-'06 run, this much is obvious, but don't discount the essential role Shaq played in the 'chip as well.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

PartisanRanger said:


> Anyone who says that Shaq did not have an intimate role in securing the '05-'06 championship for Miami is lying. Would your average, decent center be able to draw double-teams like Shaq did, pulling attention away from Wade? Would he be able to put up a solid 20/9 all season? Provide veteran leadership and support to a new squad? The answer to all of these is no. Even with Odom and Butler still in Miami, without Shaq it's just not happening.
> 
> Wade was the more important of the two in the '05-'06 run, this much is obvious, but don't discount the essential role Shaq played in the 'chip as well.


It was 15 strong, not 14 :biggrin:


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## arhie (Jul 4, 2006)

You guys have a point yet you are so wrong. Every franchise's dream is to win a championship. No GM or owner values winning potential over championships. LEt me make a few points.
1. Shaq put Miami on the map for contention. As soon as he signed, the heat were title contenders, regardless of the talent on the rest of the team.
2. DWade might not be the player he is today if Shaq wasn't on the team. He makes players better around him and that can not be taken away from the diesel.
3. Today Odom, and Butler may produce more stats than Shaq. But when Shaq is playing he has a bigger presence than those two playes together. He still draws attention on offense, and Shaq will always be an intimidating presence in the paint. Even if he doesn';t block shots, he makes players think twice about ocming into the paint.
4. Without Shaq your heat would have got beat by the nets two straight years. And this year even with Shaq they will lose against the nets. PRetty much the nets have to choke to lose against the heat. They did choke last year, they may do it again, but its unlikely.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Need I remind you that the Heat won the championship last season?

The trade worked out well for both teams.

Also, Lamar Odom wouldn't be this good if he had stayed with the Heat. This progression is a result of him playing under Jackson and the triangle offense...it fits perfectly to his style.


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## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

BullSoxChicagosFinest said:


> Who says no deal would have been made to address that?


You mean like the Shaq trade?


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## calabreseboy (Nov 17, 2004)

I think what the creator of this thread has forgotten is locker room presence. Shaq has an amazing influence on younger players. It can be good ie. Wade, or bad for good ie. Kobe. Either way, his mentality and knowledge of the game would never have been achieved and I personally don't think Wade would have exploded like he did last year without Shaq. He would have eventually, but maybe not for another season or two. 

Without Shaq, Wade had no one to act as a father figure. He was pretty much his own father and father to less-talented players on a young team. 

The Heat were always going to win a championship with Shaq and Wade on the court. With Odom, Butler and Wade they could have and may have, but you just don't know. There have been plenty of great, talented and young threesomes that have gone through this league that fail to succeed at the big moments. Shaq brings success with him. He brought it moderetly to Orlando, then to the Lakers and finally to Miami. The Heat would not have won the championship had he not been there last year. And I mean it in the sense that they didnt trade for him OR if he managed to get injured before the finals and they went against the Mavs without him. 

Also, without Shaq, there would have been no Zo, no JW, no Posey and no Gp, and to a lesser extent, no Walker, all of whom were instrumental in the playoffs with all of their experiences. You don't think that they would have been putting Wade on their shoulders and saying "Guide us young fella, and here are some tips from us wise, older folk."? Who would have said that to Wade if they weren't there? You really don't believe that Shaq and co. helped Wade explode? 

This thread is worthless.


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## pac4eva5 (Dec 29, 2005)

a guaranteed ring id wish for every one of my favorite teams...


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

REEF_DA_CHIEF said:


> 1. This thread should be closed.


If this thread should closed than you should be banned for your "This Season is a Failure" topic last year. :laugh:

But yeah, may as well be closed. I said my piece. I'm not going to sit here and try and change minds.

For the record i'm not trying to hate on Shaq, or rain on our parade. I support any play who dawns a Heat uniform.

Go Heat


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

Heated said:


> If this thread should closed than you should be banned for your "This Season is a Failure" topic last year. :laugh:
> 
> But yeah, may as well be closed. I said my piece. I'm not going to sit here and try and change minds.
> 
> ...


I understand where you're coming from, but I'm content with the championship right now and I disagree, I don't think Odom/Wade would've won us the 'ship.


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## pac4eva5 (Dec 29, 2005)

damn, u heat fans are so spoiled, its kinda sick. some of u would trade a ring for a "not so great" future? shiiit, sounds like most of u are already packing in on this season. what if it was 2 in a row? would u be happy then? wow u guys dont deserve a championship


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

pac4eva5 said:


> damn, u heat fans are so spoiled, its kinda sick. some of u would trade a ring for a "not so great" future?


Gee, I don't remember saying that, ever. And if you think I implied that, you better go back and read what i've posted again. My point was that we could have potentially done it without Shaq and still had a very bright future. But you knew that. You're just taking my words out of context purposely to slight me. I'm gonna have to start handing out numbers. Next...


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## PartisanRanger (Oct 24, 2004)

Heated said:


> If this thread should closed than you should be banned for your "This Season is a Failure" topic last year. :laugh:


Oh man, that may have been the biggest backfire thread in all of BBB.net history.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

The Miami Heat will repeat as NBA champions this season. Who ever said the Shaq trade was bad for the Heat is very off the mark.


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## nickrock23 (Mar 28, 2004)

everyone here hated losing odom and CB when it happened. some even felt bad about grant. and long term we all knew we'd be on the short side of the trade. but riles was all about right now, and it worked. odom/wade/cb most likely wouldnt have won it all as fast as we did with shaq. 
even if shaq retires next year, the trade was worth doing because we have a title. 
we will always miss CB and LO, no question about it. but to say shaq was 'just along for the ride' is not true. he was the one who allowed wade to take all those FT's because teams foul shaq intentionally and put us in the bonus. he's invaluable even if he just stands there and does nothing.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Well said Nickrock.

I was as big a fan as any of that Wade,Jones,Butler,Odom and Grant team. Those were my favourite players, along with Zo and it really hurt to deal away 4 of that starting 5 that i had grown to love watching play. But even tho we dealt my favourite players, i knew it was for the benefit of the franchise. A chance for a player like Shaq to bring a title to ur team is worth it. Every team in the league (barring the Lakers of course) would do that trade again and again. 

We are the defending champs....Nuff Said


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## Junior21 (Jun 26, 2004)

Eternal said:


> What does that have to do with Shaq though? Heat could've won the title last year w/o Shaq... the way Wade was playing in the Finals.




Wow, that quote shows that you can't be taken seriously. Wade, odom & butler aren't getting past the Pistons. Wouldn't pass Chicago in the 1st round. Shaq is the x factor no team can guard. He's makes the other teams big man invisible, even if he doesn't do much. Rebounding is huge in the NBA, shaq commands a body or 2 on the boards. Small lineups don't win championships.


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## nickrock23 (Mar 28, 2004)

BG44 said:


> Well said Nickrock.
> 
> I was as big a fan as any of that Wade,Jones,Butler,Odom and Grant team. Those were my favourite players, along with Zo and it really hurt to deal away 4 of that starting 5 that i had grown to love watching play. But even tho we dealt my favourite players, i knew it was for the benefit of the franchise. A chance for a player like Shaq to bring a title to ur team is worth it. Every team in the league (barring the Lakers of course) would do that trade again and again.
> 
> We are the defending champs....Nuff Said


no doubt, that 2004 team was so fun to watch. even though we lost to the pacers, we made so much noise and no one expected it. we didnt get an ESPN game til like march lol. rafe was a great story, haslem makes the team and starts from game 1, riles stepping down.. all the lebron/melo hype and wade steals the show in the playoffs.. just great memories. cant believe that was 4 seasons ago.

dudes it's almost 2am and theyre still shouting "RU" in the streets of Hoboken .. unreal


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## Vivaldi (Nov 12, 2006)

In My honest opinion, it wasn't. Although I can see where you're coming from, in the end, the ultimate goal in sports is to win a championship; which we did. Now, would have we won without Shaq? That's all up for speculation; but with him we did win, and have a good shot at winning again. Also, when he leaves we'll have lots of cap space to get some fresher players to compliment wade. And who knows, Maybe by then Wright might have come out and become a major contributor. I don't necessarily think we traded our future, and if that's how you see it, for a championship, it was a fair trade.


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## sMaK (Jun 13, 2002)

I didn't read all 6 pages of this stupid thread. 

But, Come on now, we won a championship and it's a stupid trade? People like you are the reason everyone thinks Miami fans are idiots. We won the title last year. What more do you want?


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## MacDanny 6 (Jun 7, 2002)

If it wasn't for Shaq the Heat would be the current Laker team right now while the Lakers would have won another championship with him. ENOUGH SAID CLOSE THIS DUMB THREAD!


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## REEF_DA_CHIEF (Jun 19, 2005)

Heated said:


> If this thread should closed than you should be banned for your "This Season is a Failure" topic last year. :laugh:
> 
> But yeah, may as well be closed. I said my piece. I'm not going to sit here and try and change minds.
> 
> ...



Yeah I think the MOD needs to book my lengthy thread on the Heat's woos(Failed Season)last year in the "HEAT Annals of History Compilation" I am a bigger fan than you give me credit for. Funny enough it was after losing to Dallas by a more than 30 points early last season. Ask me what I did when we lost to the Bulls by 42? Thing is, as the season goes on we as a fervent fan base will cool down our anticipation and roll with the punches. The Heat will find a way to win when the time is right. Same story different season. HEATED I think you are great fan of Heat basketball but you can be a tadbit immature at times. I appreciate what Shaq brings to this team and for 20 millions dollars he has united Dade County and ignited a pride in it citizens never before seen since the Undefeated Dolphins (Panthers/Marlins dont count).. So if posters disagree with your opinion :angel: , deal with it don't get personal.


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## Unique (Apr 13, 2005)

I think the treade worked out for both teams... W/O Shaq I dont belive the heat would have won anything. Sure he's old, and fat. But still a hell of a decoy. It also worked out for LA . Lamar is finnaly showing what he's got.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

...you do realize that your team is the defending champion, right?


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## Zuca (Dec 4, 2003)

Shaq promised Miami a title and he helped bringing it... Enough said for me!


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## UD40 (May 12, 2005)

This thread is still open?


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