# Howard really was toxic



## MojoPin (Oct 10, 2008)

> Within the Los Angeles Lakers, there had been a belief that a late January team meeting in Memphis could've been the beginning of Dwight Howard's future with the franchise, or merely the beginning of the end. No restraints, no mercy, no holding back. Kobe Bryant had climbed into Howard in a way that was startling, sobering, a moment of penetrating and unpleasant truths.
> 
> Every time you trash me to teammates, it gets back to me, witnesses said Bryant told Howard in the visiting locker room of the FedEx Forum. Every time you do one of your impersonations when I walk out of the room, I find out. Everything tumbled out of Bryant, one grievance after another, and the Lakers coaches and players sat watching the two biggest personas in the room push closer together, or irreconcilably apart.
> 
> ...



http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--r...e-wouldn-t--unconditional-love-061137592.html


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

I JUST read that article. Crazy.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Yep. We all knew this before it was said.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

thats the definition of toxic?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Dre said:


> thats the definition of toxic?


You're right, he was a great locker room guy.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Calling somebody out after a loss on the road in front of basically everybody who traveled with you on the franchises behalf is a little excessive, regardless of it's validity. Kobe's a pitbull and that's why we love him, but he chased away the most talented player the Lakers have had since Shaq left in 2004. It's amusing he's chased away two of the most talented players he's ever played with (at the time he played with them of course). Doesn't make me think any of less of him, it in fact doubles down my perception of Kobe, but it really might be a curse at times.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Kobe chased away Dwight? That's news to me.

I thought Dwight was a spoiled bitch who sulked all season, never once playing hard, and then ditched the team he fake talked up all season.

I know his team mates in Orlando had great things to say about him after he ran off the coach and GM.......

It's sad all the people who want to rush to defend this guy.


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## MojoPin (Oct 10, 2008)

He negatively affected the Lakers' team culture = toxic

You can't go around bitching to the rest of the team about Kobe and mocking him when he is not around. Employees who do that create a tense and unproductive work environment for everyone involved, which in turn affects synergy on the court. If he was a normal person, working a regular job, his ass would be fired quickly.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Dwight has his shortcomings, but there's two sides to every story. You could have pulled him aside or invited him to your home and had this type of discussion. A public humiliation on the road after a loss though? You can't say that's not avoidable, it's excessive. You have the franchise front office telling him it's going to be his team, and Kobe warning Howard that he would never, ever let him take over if he didn't completely change who he was as a person. That's a pretty mixed message, and I can't imagine the environment was anything less than hostile. Dwight also badly wanted Phil, and they opted another option. The franchise isn't a slave to what Dwight wants, but you're hoping to attract this superstar player to sign a long term max deal with you, but you're disregarding his opinion in front office decisions? And it's not like wanted Phil to come in is poor logic, that could have made all the difference. Dwight Howard was free to make a decision about where he wants to play, he was not obligated to stay with the Lakers. Do you think Chris Paul wouldn't have more deeply explored his options on the market if the Clippers ignored his head coaching requests and went with Larry Drew instead? 

In the end, this is how I see it. You can absolutely argue that Dwight could stand to be more of a killer, but in the same vein, you would have to admit Kobe could stand to work on being more adaptable. The Lakers situation is not an overly appealing one compared to places like Houston or Golden State from a basketball perspective. Lakers have all the empty rhetoric fluff in the world to pile on, and some of it is tangible and has real merit, but Dwight made a smart basketball choice and I think he will be happier and more productive because of it. I also think Kobe has just reinvested himself into basketball, and I figured he would at some point, but I think this may have been that tipping point.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

MojoPin said:


> He negatively affected the Lakers' team culture = toxic
> 
> You can't go around bitching to the rest of the team about Kobe and mocking him when he is not around. Employees who do that create a tense and unproductive work environment for everyone involved, which in turn affects synergy on the court. If he was a normal person, working a regular job, his ass would be fired quickly.


You're completely altering a persons life trajectory but expecting the reality you've dismissed by twisting it around to be the baseline? 

It's safe to say if Dwight Howard was a normal person, with a normal job, who wasn't 6'10", and wasn't a 240lb rock solid defensive monster, he would probably be a different person than the one you're talking about.


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## 29380 (Feb 23, 2009)

Dwight was a cancer on and off the floor last year for the Lakers. On the court he would sometimes ignore what play was being run and spend most of the shot clock demanding to be posted up and setting half-ass picks, and if he did not get the ball he who give little effort playing defense then yell at someone after the opposing team scored. Off the court he was pulling a T.O. trying to get people on team Dwight which is never good for a locker room. Dwight biggest problem is that he is full of **** and that rubs most people including his own teammates the wrong way. It is the main reason Shaq does not like him, you come into the league a hardcore christian then everyone finds out you have 4 or 5 baby mammas and you ripoff Shaq's gimmick and start calling yourself Superman for endorsements.



BlakeJesus said:


> Calling somebody out after a loss on the road in front of basically everybody who traveled with you on the franchises behalf is a little excessive, regardless of it's validity. Kobe's a pitbull and that's why we love him, but he chased away the most talented player the Lakers have had since Shaq left in 2004. It's amusing he's chased away two of the most talented players he's ever played with (at the time he played with them of course). Doesn't make me think any of less of him, it in fact doubles down my perception of Kobe, but it really might be a curse at times.


I would take Pau Gasol (2008-2010) over this version of Dwight. I am not a big fan of Kobe but the main reason Shaq got trade is because the Lakers did not want to pay him $30 million a year when he was on the decline.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

"This version of Dwight" meaning you think he has NO shot of EVER being the 20/13 with 2 blocks All-NBA defender he was just two seasons ago? 

Dwight was hurt last year, so if your argument that Dwight's injury will keep him from ever being the same type of impact layer I can live with that. I'd disagree, but I can live with that. But if you think he was hurt but that he's just a whiny loser and even if he's a dominant player at a weak position he'll never be a championship caliber player...you're getting swept up in drama and not basketball.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

I love guys who say they hate "drama" yet they have the highest post count in these type of threads.

Answer some questions for me Blake.

1) Did Dwight already run off a coach and GM?
2) Did some of his old teammates come out and say how bad he was in the locker room?
3) Were there countless plays where Dwight would just casually walk back on defense while the other team ran a 5 on 4?

Its laughable that you're not only trying to defend this dick head, but also trying to take shots at Kobe because he wasn't ok with Dwight coming in and ****ing his team up.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Kobe is a stud, I have not said anything bad about Kobe. He is intense, not everybody is intense. Some people are flexible about it, some people are not. Kobe was not, and Dwight was not. 

I feel little emotion about this, it's business. Kobe made a decision he feels good about, one that he can live with. Dwight made a decision he feels good about, one that he can live with. I don't think it makes Kobe or Dwight a bad person to do what they feel is right, but if you're going to pile on one guy than there's nothing wrong or overly harsh about pointing out it should go both ways.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

So we aren't answering the questions I posted for you then?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

I'm buying this - good luck James Harden


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Kobe is a dick and not a lot of people like being on the same team with him.

That being said, I agree with him about Dwight. Kobe being a dick doesn't make it ok to mock him, and is even more damaging to team chemistry. 

Shaq was a clown too, but he knew which vets he could do that around and he knew when he had to keep it in his pocket and focus. He was stoic as can be during key games and wouldn't even show emotion to the refs. Not to mention when he had beef with Kobe it was made very clear to Kobe and not done behind his back.

I said this in another thread, but I don't see Dwight ever having the right personality to lead a team to a championship. Rockets better hope Harden emerges as the leader.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

You think Dwight will allow Harden to be leader?

Not a chance.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

I remember this.

Just goes to show how stupid Dwight is for thinking he could do an impression of Kobe Bryant behind his back, thinking Kobe would have a sense of humor about something like that, and thinking it would never get back to Kobe.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> Kobe is a dick and not a lot of people like being on the same team with him.
> 
> That being said, I agree with him about Dwight. Kobe being a dick doesn't make it ok to mock him, and is even more damaging to team chemistry.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I think this is it in a nutshell. I hate that I have to root for this clown now. This is only marginally better than when Boston traded for Wally Szczerbiak Szczuperstar. I know that Harden has to take control of the team and I know that Howard is going to chafe and poison the clubhouse.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

How sure are we that Harden can be a leader?


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Harden isn't a leader nor all that mentally strong despite his immense raw ability far too inconsistent a player. 

Howard has never commited himself to anything its why he has a million baby mommas he's just someone who wants adulation and when you don't fall all over his nuts he buckles. kobe was right to punk him Howard will never ever get it plain and simple. 

I dislike the man's personality I never liked Shaq's either but Shaq was a monster on the court an absolute killer that would smash an opponent. He had intelligence on the court very high hoops iq something Howard simply doesn't have at all plays the same way against every opponent. 

Put a prime Shaq on the Orlando team we beat in the Finals and we'd got worked completely over. maybe survived a 7th game with Shaq's missed free throws but thats about it. 

we made howard look like a damn fool.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

BlakeJesus said:


> "This version of Dwight" meaning you think he has NO shot of EVER being the 20/13 with 2 blocks All-NBA defender he was just two seasons ago?
> 
> Dwight was hurt last year, so if *your argument that Dwight's injury will keep him from ever being the same type of impact layer* I can live with that. *I'd disagree, but I can live with that.*


FWIW... http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9308573/searching-dwight-howard

Simmons pretty much called it on the trade options...I now totally believe his opinion on Dwight as well...its all downhill from here for him


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## Wilmatic2 (Oct 30, 2005)

To say Dwight was toxic is comparing him to someone who is a sociopath or a serial killer. It was just a clash of personalities. Your not gonna get along with everyone on this planet and thats life. People are overanalyzing one guys carefree, humorous personality versus another who is intense and serious. The reality is that they both would have had to make changes to their personality for the relationship work and that wasn't gonna happen.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Devils advocate says Lebron did/does a lot of this "goofy" stuff and well....

I guess he has done it less since going to the Heat but it seems like he still does it


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Wilmatic2 said:


> To say Dwight was toxic is comparing him to someone who is a sociopath or a serial killer


that's not what people mean when they talk about people who make an office or workplace toxic - backbiters, whiners, people who spend more time bitching about the situation than putting an effort in to turn things around - Dwight seems to qualify under those metrics


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

DaRizzle said:


> Devils advocate says Lebron did/does a lot of this "goofy" stuff and well....
> 
> I guess he has done it less since going to the Heat but it seems like he still does it


Shaq did it too but he had a switch once he got on the court


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

hey what about this:



> What's wrong with you if the Greatest Teammate Ever is fed up with you?
> 
> Well, what's wrong with Dwight Howard is he still isn't trying.
> 
> ...



http://www.ocregister.com/articles/howard-495416-nash-lakers.html


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## Wilmatic2 (Oct 30, 2005)

e-monk said:


> hey what about this:
> 
> Its no secret that everyone knows Dwight has a false sense of entitlement. If he were a pitcher, he'd probably throw the pitching coach under the bus. If he played golf, he'd probably throw his caddie or swing coach under the bus. The guy is who he is. Nature vs. nurture?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

he is
a
dick


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

I love watching Lakers fans bitch about Dwight *almost* as much as I enjoy watching Dwight shoot himself in the foot.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

ChrisWoj said:


> I love watching Lakers fans bitch about Dwight *almost* as much as I enjoy watching Dwight shoot himself in the foot.


haters gonna hate - interesting how many people get pleasure from negative things - better purify your soul, it's just not good for you to harbor so much negativity - I guess being a piston fan you've got nothing else to fill it with though right?


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

e-monk said:


> haters gonna hate - interesting how many people get pleasure from negative things - better purify your soul, it's just not good for you to harbor so much negativity - I guess being a piston fan you've got nothing else to fill it with though right?


I was drunk. I don't tend to moderate my thoughts when I'm drunk. But seriously - a lot of the thoughts and vitriol concerning Dwight on this forum over the last week have been HILARIOUS in their lack of logic. Not all of them, there are some well thought out posts - but man, some people here just don't know what they're talking about at all, they're not even close to sensible thought.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

It is funny how we were told there was 0 chance Dwight would leave LA, and now he's gone.

Nothing against Laker fans, but it sure is hilarious.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

R-Star said:


> It is funny how we were told there was 0 chance Dwight would leave LA, and now he's gone.
> 
> Nothing against Laker fans, but it sure is hilarious.


Who said there was 0 chance? I think everyone knew it was a possibility. But some of us just thought he would choose LA ultimately.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Basel said:


> Who said there was 0 chance? I think everyone knew it was a possibility. But some of us just thought he would choose LA ultimately.


Go back and read the threads. We were told there was no way Howard was going to leave all that extra money, or the amazing night life in LA, or how he really wanted to be a movie star so he'd stay. A lot of LA arrogance was posted.

Then he left and LA got nothing but cap space out of the deal.


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## arasu (Jan 18, 2013)

R-Star said:


> Go back and read the threads. We were told there was no way Howard was going to leave all that extra money, or the amazing night life in LA, or how he really wanted to be a movie star so he'd stay. A lot of LA arrogance was posted.
> 
> Then he left and LA got nothing but cap space out of the deal.


I suppose those are the ones you remember, but a lot of Laker fans weren't so convinced or arrogant. Many Laker fans were looking to trade him when the team was 17-25, and one of the reasons was that he might leave for nothing in return.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

I still wish they'd moved him for Horford


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

I thought there was zero chance Dwight would leave, but it's not because I'm arrogant (though I'm sure people are dying for a reason to bash me). It's because I didn't have enough respect for Dwight to think he would walk away from the money. I also (repeatedly) said I hoped the Lakers would let Dwight leave outright if he didn't sign to make him take the pay hit. I already said I have a new found respect for him from walking away from the most free agent dollars I ever remember someone walking away from. Only other guy I ever remember leaving at least 20 million on the table is Payton in 2003.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

there is that wtf is he doing element, though for me it is still more about not going to GSW which may be a better team than the rockets even with Howard and would have meant the extra 30m and living in the bay area as opposed to Houston

it's clear to me at this point that he's not 'Lakers material'


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

e-monk said:


> there is that wtf is he doing element, though for me it is still more about not going to GSW which may be a better team than the rockets even with Howard and would have meant the extra 30m and living in the bay area as opposed to Houston
> 
> it's clear to me at this point that he's not 'Lakers material'


But Billy Goldblock or whatever that joke guard you guys have had for a few years is "Laker Material"? :laugh:

This is the kind of hilarious Laker entitlement I spoke of.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Andrew Goudelock?


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## arasu (Jan 18, 2013)

R-Star said:


> But Billy Goldblock or whatever that joke guard you guys have had for a few years is "Laker Material"? :laugh:
> 
> This is the kind of hilarious Laker entitlement I spoke of.


Laker fans like our project players. Low 1st round/2nd round guys, young unproven guys, veteran reclamation projects, and such. You may laugh, but some of those guys become key players or find an important role on Laker championship teams (Derek Fisher, Shannon Brown, Trevor Ariza, Sasha Vujacic). They don't always turn out that great (Smush, Kwame), but when we invest hope in these guys, often we are rewarded with a title. I don't know if Goudelock will be one of those guys, but who knows. Rooting for these guys in no way shows a sense of entitlement. Maybe come up with a better example.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

arasu said:


> Laker fans like our project players. Low 1st round/2nd round guys, young unproven guys, veteran reclamation projects, and such. You may laugh, but some of those guys become key players or find an important role on Laker championship teams (Derek Fisher, Shannon Brown, Trevor Ariza, Sasha Vujacic). They don't always turn out that great (Smush, Kwame), but when we invest hope in these guys, often we are rewarded with a title. I don't know if Goudelock will be one of those guys, but who knows. Rooting for these guys in no way shows a sense of entitlement. Maybe come up with a better example.


Rooting for Smushed Parker, and then saying Dwight isn't "Laker Material" isn't pathetic entitlement?

Saying "as opposed to Houston." like it's some shit hole and LA is a bastion of awesomeness (even though it's a grime and hobo infested shit hole) isn't pathetic Laker entitlement?

Some of you are delusional.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

R-Star said:


> Rooting for Smushed Parker, and then saying Dwight isn't "Laker Material" isn't pathetic entitlement?
> 
> Saying "as opposed to Houston." like it's some shit hole and LA is a bastion of awesomeness (even though it's a grime and hobo infested shit hole) isn't pathetic Laker entitlement?
> 
> Some of you are delusional.


you're not 'Laker material'


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## arasu (Jan 18, 2013)

R-Star said:


> Rooting for Smushed Parker, and then saying Dwight isn't "Laker Material" isn't pathetic entitlement?


Rooting for Smush would be pathetic, yes, but it does nothing to show Laker fans have a sense of entitlement. Try again.



> Saying "as opposed to Houston." like it's some shit hole and LA is a bastion of awesomeness (even though it's a grime and hobo infested shit hole) isn't pathetic Laker entitlement?


Hobos can be fun to talk to. There are a few in Houston too. If you're into big cities L.A. and N.Y. have the most to offer in the U.S. No sense of entitlement there. It is what it is.



> Some of you are delusional.


Maybe. Which ones are you referring too?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

R-Star said:


> But Billy Goldblock or whatever that joke guard you guys have had for a few years is "Laker Material"? :laugh:
> 
> This is the kind of hilarious Laker entitlement I spoke of.


Nobody can get mad at you for anything you say because you dropped "Billy Goldblock" on this board. I had a good 2 minute laugh.

You can call us arrogant, call us entitled, make fun of Bynum, make fun of mother. You can even pretend we're bulls fans and that Rose is a laker, or that we're Heat fans and Norris Cole is a Laker. Have a troll feast!


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