# Iverson Or McGrady?



## Bulls4Life (Nov 13, 2002)

Who is the better "One Man Gang"? If you were given an expansion team with all scrubs and one of these two guys, which one would you want?


I love McGrady but I'm starting to think he really needs help, but AI has been carrying his team, at times. I know McGrady doesn't WANT to have to do that but now I'm thinking maybe he CAN'T do that!


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## futuremav14 (May 3, 2003)

this is a very interesting question, one that has gotten lost amidst the sexier tmac vs. kobe debate. many factors are to be considered in the thought process. iverson has been to the finals, mcgrady has never been out of the first round. iverson has been in jail, mcgrady in no real legal trouble. iverson is 5'11", mcgrady 6'8". both average around 30 points per. both have the uncanny ability to help their teams in other ways (i.e. assists, steals, leadership) and both have minimal talent around them, (though they have had great years, for some reason keith van horn and drew gooden did not show up on my mvp ballot). but, a question was asked and im riding the fence. i would take iverson. though perhaps mcgrady is the more skilled player and more model citizen, iverson displays a gritty will to win that hasnt been matched in recent memory. mcgrady gives me the feeling that he is settling for knowing that he could the the best. iverson appears as though he will not settle until he is the best.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bulls4Life</b>!
> Who is the better "One Man Gang"? If you were given an expansion team with all scrubs and one of these two guys, which one would you want?
> 
> 
> I love McGrady but I'm starting to think he really needs help, but AI has been carrying his team, at times. I know McGrady doesn't WANT to have to do that but now I'm thinking maybe he CAN'T do that!


Tmac has never had near the supporting cast of Iverson.


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## #1BucksFan (Apr 14, 2003)

thats why he never made it past the first round. Iverson all the way


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## spartanfan2003 (Jul 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ostertag-fan</b>!
> Iverson all the way


All the way means championship. Sorry, but Iverson never won one of those.


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

Its hard to say

But t-mac cause Im a magic fan


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## rynobot (Oct 10, 2002)

I'll take Iverson, atleast he has proven that he can lead a team to the NBA Finals.


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## grizzoistight (Jul 16, 2002)

*tmac has never had a supporting cast??*

Bo Outlaw - is far from a poor player
A younger D Armstrong - who had 16 and 8 in the last game of the series ( i dont feel like lookin at every box score)
Mike miller - a rookie of the year who had 22 in the final game
Pat garrity - 40% career 3 pt shooter
Troy hudson - great scorer
Doleac - better than madsen or walker
Monty williams - a great defender

maybe they would have won the series if tmac didnt miss 16 shots
or if he didnt let thomas allen and big dog to combine for 60 points??


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## couchtomato (Aug 14, 2002)

I would argue that McGrady is the better player. 

But Iverson know how to win and he's proven it in pressure situations, time and time again.

Their recent game six's is a prime example.


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## grizzoistight (Jul 16, 2002)

*amen tomato*

everyone saying its rookies that tmac has..
well look at this game so far 
if it wasnt for the rookies it would be a 40 pt game as of now


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

*Re: Re: Iverson Or McGrady?*



> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> Tmac has never had near the supporting cast of Iverson.


AI has a supporting cast? I know he has some decent role players but they're not really at that talented. The one advantage he does have is that the players around him have defined roles and do a good job filling them. This probably has more to do with coaching than anything else. I think TMac is better and more talented but I love AI's grit and determination. He looks like he wants it more. If it were a Game 7 situation I'd take AI over just about anyone in the league. The man is a big game player.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

Iverson. Just seems to be a much better leader than Tmac. Gets his team to win, and when they don't, he doesn't blame it all on them.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> Iverson. Just seems to be a much better leader than Tmac. Gets his team to win, and when they don't, he doesn't blame it all on them.


I think AI is probably the best leader in the NBA today. He leads by example and if it is warranted, he's a vocal leader. His teammates also have a great deal of respect for him and that can't be discounted.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: tmac has never had a supporting cast??*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> Bo Outlaw - is far from a poor player
> A younger D Armstrong - who had 16 and 8 in the last game of the series ( i dont feel like lookin at every box score)
> Mike miller - a rookie of the year who had 22 in the final game
> ...


I love the way you and IV pump up Orlando's players as if they were All-Stars. Everytime a Orlando player other than Tmac scores more than 10 points you start talking about how great they are.

Fact is, Iverson has had a better supporting cast than Tmac ever has, and that cannot be argued.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

i would take iverson, McGrady is viewed as the better player, but is he really? McGrady has never led his team out of the first round in the East, while iverson has been to the championship with the second best player being mutombo. T Mac has no committment to defense while iverson leads the league in steals every year, and you really never hear about a PG dominating the sixers because Allen iverson is a very good 1 on 1 defender, while you may say Baron Davis had a couple of big games against the sixers, that was against Snow what did Wesley do? Allen has more heart than any player in the league and he just wills his team to victory while T Mac tends to just take what is given to him, ai will force his way to the basket draw a couple of defenders and find an open teammate or put a shot up and if he misses his someone will clean up the miss just because of all the attention iverson gets.


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## grizzoistight (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> i would take iverson, McGrady is viewed as the better player, but is he really? McGrady has never led his team out of the first round in the East, while iverson has been to the championship with the second best player being mutombo. T Mac has no committment to defense while iverson leads the league in steals every year, and you really never hear about a PG dominating the sixers because Allen iverson is a very good 1 on 1 defender, while you may say Baron Davis had a couple of big games against the sixers, that was against Snow what did Wesley do? Allen has more heart than any player in the league and he just wills his team to victory while T Mac tends to just take what is given to him, ai will force his way to the basket draw a couple of defenders and find an open teammate or put a shot up and if he misses his someone will clean up the miss just because of all the attention iverson gets.


that is a thing of beauty right there :buddies: 
couldnt have said it better myself..
haha right when we talk about tmacs lack of defense.. Billups pump fakes him and goes straight to the hole on twac.. i guess hes doin a good job on him i mean billups only has 19 :sigh: then when he goes out prince gets hot ...so im ready for the excuses dee bo!!! 
someone call the doctor i think tmac has a chicken bone stuck in his throat ..


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> 
> 
> that is a thing of beauty right there :buddies:
> ...


Do you realize how sad you are?


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## Bulls4Life (Nov 13, 2002)

TMac looked like he gave up out there today?!?!?!?!?!?





That was one sorry a** performance for someone generally considered amongst the top 5 players in the game!!!!


Iverson = :woot:
McGrady = :frenchy:


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## grizzoistight (Jul 16, 2002)

*iverson shows a lot of heart all the time*

it doesnt matter if he shoots a lower % he wins and moves on tmac on the other hand..


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

until tmac gets out of the first round then maybe id pick him over iverson, but the NBA is about winning, thats what iverson does best.


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## SportsGuru5 (Jul 15, 2002)

The NBA isn't about winning "games." It's about winning championships. Dirk Nowitzki, Allen Iverson, Paul Pierce, Tracy McGrady, and Chris Webber all have the same number of rings.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Hey Louie, i'm sure u nicely remember telling me that AI would definitely beat the Pistons with a starting lineup of Declerq, Gooden, Giricek, AI and Vaughn(something i consider downright laughable and straight up dissin' t-mac). Hmm...hasn't turned out quite well so far, nah? AI hasn't been able to do anything noteworthy yet. Pistons aren't even guarding him as tightly as they did against t-mac. Billups didn't even play last night and AI still flopped. Shooting only 40% in the series so far, disappearing in the clutch(4 pts in entire 4th qtr + OT last night), and choking at the FT line. We'll see how much his "desire" and this so called ability to "step up" takes him against the pistons. His roleplayers also did more last night then t-mac's cast did any of the 7 games.

This Pistons-Sixers series so far is making t-mac look real good. A Pistons sweep or even just a victory will shutup all the t-mac haters who all of a sudden jumped on the PP and AI bandwagon, despite well knowing how much better their supporting casts r.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Hey Louie, i'm sure u nicely remember telling me that AI would definitely beat the Pistons with a starting lineup of Declerq, Gooden, Giricek, AI and Vaughn(something i consider downright laughable and straight up dissin' t-mac). Hmm...hasn't turned out quite well so far, nah? AI hasn't been able to do anything noteworthy yet. Pistons aren't even guarding him as tightly as they did against t-mac. Billups didn't even play last night and AI still flopped. Shooting only 40% in the series so far, disappearing in the clutch(4 pts in entire 4th qtr + OT last night), and choking at the FT line. We'll see how much his "desire" and this so called ability to "step up" takes him against the pistons. His roleplayers also did more last night then t-mac's cast did any of the 7 games


Last I checked, last night's game was only Game 2. Two games, only one of which was particularly bad for Ive, does not constitute a series. Anyways, Ive has given playoff performances in years past that TMac can only dream about at this point. He had a terrible game, but he's proven himself capable of stepping up when his team needs him the most- something TMac has yet to do.
Anyway, what does this post have to do with this thread? You felt the need to disrupt the discussion of this thread with an OT post calling me out? If you really wanted to call me out, you probably would have gotten more reads with a separate thread anyways.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

> Last I checked, last night's game was only Game 2. Two games, only one of which was particularly bad for Ive, does not constitute a series. Anyways, Ive has given playoff performances in years past that TMac can only dream about at this point. He had a terrible game, but he's proven himself capable of stepping up when his team needs him the most- something TMac has yet to do.


Once again, the point was that "U" said AI could lead his team to victory over the Pistons with "T-mac's cast"(laughable), which anybody will agree that its clearly inferior to AI's. It was never abt what had happened in the past or what will take place in the future. The argument was abt u saying AI being a better player then T-mac(which u know i highly disagree with), and that he could beat the Pistons in a 7 game series. So far he hasn't done zilch. Two straight poor shooting nights(8-21 and 12-29), disappearance in the clutch and not taking advantage of Detroit's most versatile offensive player being out. So far he's making t-mac look real good and ur statement foolish. 

I'm not saying the series is over, sixers still have a good enuff all round team to make a comeback.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Once again, the point was that "U" said AI could lead his team to victory over the Pistons with "T-mac's cast"(laughable), which anybody will agree that its clearly inferior to AI's.


Once again, :topic:. We should continue this via PMs, but since you don't have PMs we can't. Of course A.I.'s supporting cast is clearly superior- I never said they weren't. What I did say was that Iverson has proven himself to be a crunch-time performer in the playoffs, and TMac has yet to do that.



> It was never abt what had happened in the past or what will take place in the future. The argument was abt u saying AI being a better player then T-mac(which u know i highly disagree with), and that he could beat the Pistons in a 7 game series. So far he hasn't done zilch. Two straight poor shooting nights(8-21 and 12-29), disappearance in the clutch and not taking advantage of Detroit's most versatile offensive player being out.


First off, I never said that A.I. is a better player than TMac. _That_ would be foolish. TMac is bigger, stronger, a better defender, rebounder and pure shooter, and overall a more team-oriented player. All I said was that Ive is, as of right now, a better go-to guy under pressure, and I think TMac's game 7 peformance speaks for itself.


> So far he's making t-mac look real good and ur statement foolish.


So far, it has been 2 games- only one of which was particularly bad for Iverson, like I said before.

BTW-This really should be moved to a separate thread, as it is a TMac-Iverson argument and not really an overrated/underrated discussion.


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## BigTMacFan (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>4</b>!
> T MAC IN A HEART BEAT !!!!!!


As if it's really a question. Ask the question of this topic to any GM in the NBA and they are going to say TMac.


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BigTMacFan</b>!
> 
> 
> As if it's really a question. Ask the question of this topic to any GM in the NBA and they are going to say TMac.


The Lakers, Pistons and of course Philly GMs would take AI. These teams seem to me the only clubs concerned with building a franchise around the right pieces, rather than stringing together some vets and mystical, unseen Euros.

To me, although this is off-topic, the NBA today seems a competition to see which player can be the best at the biggest height in the smaller positions - Dirk, KG, TMac - ZERO championships. Same as AI, right? :uhoh: I'd take the player who overcomes his deficiencies ('6"0 SG anyone?) by pure desire, in a heartbeat.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Greg Ostertag!</b>!
> 
> 
> The Lakers, Pistons and of course Philly GMs would take AI.


The only one of those 3 that MIGHT take AI before Tmac is Philly because the fans there love him, that is the only reason. Don't kid yourself.


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: tmac has never had a supporting cast??*



> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> Fact is, Iverson has had a better supporting cast than Tmac ever has, and that cannot be argued.


But you haven't provided any fact. You've just made the same opinionated statements that everyone else has.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: tmac has never had a supporting cast??*



> Originally posted by <b>Matt85163</b>!
> 
> 
> But you haven't provided any fact. You've just made the same opinionated statements that everyone else has.


Anyone can look at the two teams and make that judgement. I don't need to go out and pull up a bunch of statistics to show it, because it is completely obvious.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

Ive did a pretty good job of steppin' up down the stretch tonight... 
It's only one game, I know.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

^^ Stepping up when the game was over with 3 mins. left and Sixers up by double digits? He just hit a couple of meaningless baskets down the stretch. Not saying he had a bad game, but tonight was a perfect example of how solid AI's cast is, and this is how they usually play. I can't remember a single game this season where t-mac scored 25 pts or less and his team was even in the game.

Chauncey coming back next game!


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

Dude, I was just screwing around. Tonights game basically meant nothing to this argument.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> ^^ Stepping up when the game was over with 3 mins. left and Sixers up by double digits? He just hit a couple of meaningless baskets down the stretch. Not saying he had a bad game, but tonight was a perfect example of how solid AI's cast is, and this is how they usually play. I can't remember a single game this season where t-mac scored 25 pts or less and his team was even in the game.
> 
> Chauncey coming back next game!


excuses, excuses.. you open your mouth when 6ers lose game 1 and 2.. then you make excuses when the 6ers win game 3, this is getting sadder by the day.

my advice? wait till the series is over.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> Not saying he had a bad game, but tonight was a perfect example of how solid AI's cast is, and this is how they usually play.


I've watched the majority of Sixers games this season, and I haven't seen them play this way against a playoff team, in another game, this season.

Really it's no doubt who I'd pick, that being Iverson. Not because I'm a Philly fan, because you want to win. People point out people without rings, but they don't acknowledge the 2001 Eastern Confernce Championship banner hanging at the First Union Center. A conference title that believe it or not, Iverson carried the team on his back with a couple 50+ point performances, as well as a couple 40+ games.

I won't lie, TMac is bigger, he's stronger, he's the better defender (come on, whoever said AI was a good defender needs to stop it), TMac can jump higher, and can get his shot over a ton more players than Iverson can. But he hasn't reacted to his first few years in the playoffs the way Iverson did when he first got in.

Sometimes measurables don't make the player, sometimes ability is just as important as the drive a player has. And also how they respond to adversity, weighs big, you would never hear Iverson cry about how he's the only allstar on his team after a win, or after a loss for that matter.

Physically TMac is a ton better, but the whole package I'd take Iverson anyday of the week, and twice on Sunday.

-Tim


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> I won't lie, TMac is bigger, he's stronger, he's the better defender (come on, whoever said AI was a good defender needs to stop it), TMac can jump higher, and can get his shot over a ton more players than Iverson can. But he hasn't reacted to his first few years in the playoffs the way Iverson did when he first got in.Sometimes measurables don't make the player, sometimes ability is just as important as the drive a player has. And also how they respond to adversity, weighs big, you would never hear Iverson cry about how he's the only allstar on his team after a win, or after a loss for that matter.


:clap: Great post, man! I agree completely.



> my advice? wait till the series is over.


Amen, Johnny B.


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## thegza (Feb 18, 2003)

I'll take Iverson.


Iverson has proven himself by going to the NBA finals. I disagree about him having a better supporting cast. If you think the year where he had a better supporting cast then McGrady you're extremelly funny. The only player I see that was more then a roleplayer was Dikembe Mutumbo. I don't think Mutumbo turns you from a first round exit to NBA finals either. Iverson knows how to win ball games, he takes the shots, he wants to win and he goes down and fights for every loose ball. I have gotten so much more respect for what AI brings to the court day in and day out this season it isn't even funny. I've always liked him but now I don't think he is a selfish guy anymore. He wants to win, he doesn't call out his team-mates in the press and when he is winning 3-1 he doesn't say "It's good to be in the 2nd round" and look like a punk when he loses.

I used to be such a big T-Mac fan but I've had enuff of all his drama. I honestly would take Iverson, Pierce, Kobe all ahead of McGrady. And you know what? they have all made it past the first round which makes me rank them ahead. I don't care how many points T-Mac averages but these guy are clutch and they don't laugh on the bench when their team is getting killed in Game 7.


Sorry if I seem a little upset, I was just really dissapointed with McGrady a few weeks ago.


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## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

iversons supporting cast was not beter than macgrady's... phillys players couldnt buy a basket!!!... but u know what they knew how to play team defense, and every player on that philly team ran their lanes. There was no slacking off on defense or offense especially transition. And thats the type of work ethic larry brown brings.

IF anything compare coaches, brown being superior.. But in no was is phillys supporting cast better than orlandos. Orlando have guys who can fill em up, especially gooden and armstrong, and armstrong isn't a slack defender either. Its just a lack of leadership on Tmacs half. He has to rally his teamates toghether and get them pumped and play flat out for every second like iverson does. Instead Tmac just calmly plays the game inslow motion.

Props to both players they are both elite. But id take iverson in a flash even though Tmac is one of my fav players. No contest iverson hands down


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## grizzoistight (Jul 16, 2002)

*are u not gonna support your reasoning..*

tmac is 0 for his career bud in the playoffs..
ai took his team to the finals.. and got one win against a dominant LA team.. thats more impressive than only winning 5 playoff games in his 7 year career


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## thegza (Feb 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>fried chicken</b>!
> T MAC !!!!!!



After posting twice in this thread and posting just T-Mac, would you care to also have an explanation towards this or are you just post padding?


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PhillyPhanatic</b>!
> 
> 
> I won't lie, TMac is bigger, he's stronger, he's the better defender (come on, whoever said AI was a good defender needs to stop it
> -Tim


how can you possibly say T Mac is a better defender, have you watched a Magic game, just count the number of times he gets beat back door, or goes for a head fake on the perimeter... how can you lead the league in steals every year and not get any credit for your defensive ability... he guards the other team's point guard and 1 on 1 shuts them down, most of their production comes from him helping and his man slipping into the opening... don't forget he won Big East Defensive Player of the Year so clearly he is a good defensive player.


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## grizzoistight (Jul 16, 2002)

*tmac is a great defender*

i mean he held chauncy to 41 pts.. and once doc felt pity for tracy he moved him to prince and prince only got 20..
thats a great job :sigh:


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: tmac is a great defender*



> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> i mean he held chauncy to 41 pts.. and once doc felt pity for tracy he moved him to prince and prince only got 20..
> thats a great job :sigh:


tmac has that uncanny ability to make players around him better, unfortunately those players are on the other team.


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

Id say Iverson because he makes ALL his teammates better. T-mac's playing style doesn't affect his teammates as much as Ivy does.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

KG is garbage also, he has never led his team out the first round in 7 years!

T-Mac is what, 23 years old!? its kinda early to bash him, dont you think?

Comparing him to Bryant is actually NOT fair, because at Orlando his first year he had to carry the load because their main guy was injured. In toronto he clashed with Vince, who was pushed to be the next mike, and t mac and vince were too similar for them to gel... (no matter how great two players are, if they are similar, they WILL NOT work well together)

the mixture of Hill and Mcgrady woulda been great, because while they are the same size, they are two different types of players... Hill being a point forward, all around player... and Mcgrady woulda been their strong offensice players. 

going back to the Bryant/McGrady comparison, its unfair, because Bryant is obviously number 2, McGrady number 1... even if Kobe plays horribly, you can still point to shaq...

as far as Iverson and Mcgrady goes... Iverson has more heart, and is a more natural leader than McGrady. 

if Drew Gooden continues to progress, and they strengthen their bench a little, i see no reason why he shouldnt make it out the east.

Remember, even tho you say the east is weak, you're still comparing it to the west... you have to look at the east objectively... because its actually a pretty tight conference come playoff time...


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

Here's a link to an interesting Chicago Sun-Times article that has alot to do with this argument:
http://www.suntimes.com/output/slezak/cst-spt-carol06.html 
This is the most interesting except, IMO- according to Wayne Winston, the guy who calculates the Winval player ratings, TMac is not a top ten player:



> ''McGrady has all the stats, but the Orlando Magic don't do that horribly when he's out of the game,'' said Winston, who correctly predicted the Magic would lose to the Detroit Pistons in their playoff series. ''The Magic give up too many points when he's in the game.''


The article also mentions, however, that A.I. isn't top 10 either.


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## theghostof#21 (May 12, 2003)

*For my first post on the boards*

Id like to say Ai proved why he is a better player.
Something like 36 pts and 11 assits and also 5 steals


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: For my first post on the boards*



> Originally posted by <b>theghostof#21</b>!
> Id like to say Ai proved why he is a better player.
> Something like 36 pts and 11 assits and also 5 steals


DeeeeZamn! This is your first post and you're already banned.
What is this world coming to?


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> 
> 
> how can you possibly say T Mac is a better defender, have you watched a Magic game, just count the number of times he gets beat back door, or goes for a head fake on the perimeter... how can you lead the league in steals every year and not get any credit for your defensive ability... he guards the other team's point guard and 1 on 1 shuts them down, most of their production comes from him helping and his man slipping into the opening... don't forget he won Big East Defensive Player of the Year so clearly he is a good defensive player.


Iverson doesn't shut anyone down, I watch Sixers games, they're my favorite basketball team. Iverson takes on the player who's the lesser scoring threat, Eric Snow takes on the guy who's the big threat. That's why Snow guards guys like TMac, Kobe, Paul Pierce, etc, Kobe even credited Snow for being the toughest guy for him to score on.

Iverson is great at anticipating the ball coming in, and he'll make the move on it, that's how he plays defense a lot of times, just playing the lanes. And when he doesn't get steals, the player has an easy look for the basket. Steals --while they are great in game, and work well if you get a ton of them and convert them into points-- are extremely overrated. When Iverson got the Sixers record for steals in a season, Larry Brown discredited it, almost instantly saying how he doesn't like steals.

Note, when I said McGrady was the better defender, I never said McGrady was a good defender, because Iverson when you're talking about man on man defense isn't that good. At his best he can be a road block, at worst he's a turnstile. But he's still a great player, and I wouldn't want another player to be the Sixers star besides him.

-Tim


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