# Its time to roll the dice.



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Rose is playing like a borderline superstar right now, pair him up with another legit all star 4 or 2 and the Bulls might be able to make a legit run at playoff success. 

Technically its also better in the long run (cap wise) to make a trade right now, we need to move some of our assets and go for a Bosh or Amare RIGHT NOW. Sure its a risky move but are we going to just sit still and pretend that this team as is can make a run, because it cant. Why waste what Rose is doing?

Is anyone really emotionally attached to Salmons, Brad Miller, Deng, Kirk, Tyrus or our draft picks right now? 

Rose being in the All star game could also help us in free agency or trade, if he play's next to Bosh and Johnson this all star game those guys might enjoy playing next to the kid. 

Dont get fooled by this stretch of play, once the playoff's start this is first round exit team. When its all said and done, if we stay pat we are .500 and still in basketball HELL. 

Take a risk, who knows what could happen. The NBA IMO is bad right now, there are only a handful of teams that can compete and they dont impress me that much either, the Bulls can put themselves in the mix with a trade for Bosh.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Amare is not the answer, in my opinion.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Dornado said:


> Amare is not the answer, in my opinion.


Yeah I dont think hes the missing the piece, I think Bosh and Johnson are those pieces along with an elite perimeter defender and a good 3 point shooter (Brown?) but Amare paire with Rose still makes you a MUCH better team. Amare might even cost less than trading for Bosh, I can live with trading Salmons, Tyrus and Miller for Amare, even if he decides not to sign back with us we now have EVEN MORE money because we avoid Salmons from Opting IN, which he will.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

if Amare is not the right piece then why deal for him? Wouldn't it be better to preserve our cap position and make a play for someone we actually want in the offseason? I don't think anyone is going to be trading for Bosh or Johnson before the trade deadline. Sure you could get Amare cheaper in a trade than Bosh, there is a reason for that you know?

ACE


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

The Bulls just need to move Hinrich and Salmons. Making the most out of our team this year is not nearly as important as preparing for next year. Not to mention that trading Deng for Amare still won't make us better than the top 4 teams in the east.
I really don't get the urgency.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

ace20004u said:


> if Amare is not the right piece then why deal for him? Wouldn't it be better to preserve our cap position and make a play for someone we actually want in the offseason? I don't think anyone is going to be trading for Bosh or Johnson before the trade deadline. Sure you could get Amare cheaper in a trade than Bosh, there is a reason for that you know?
> 
> ACE


Amare may not be the right piece but lets not act like hes below average, he is an allstar 4 a notch bellow Bosh but a notch above Boozer who is also going to get a ton of attention in the offseason. While I think Johnson and Bosh are targets 1 and 1b, Amare is a solid target #2. The point is he makes the team better and if all its going to cost is Salmons, Kirk and Miller why not.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

I really think that trading Kirk would be a big mistake. Salmons, sure. Tyrus, iffy...we'd miss his shot blocking IMO. The Bulls will have the cap space to sign another guy, and retain what we have now (letting expirings go) so just stay pat and see how good this team can get. A good team with the bulk of it's players intact, will be much more enticing to a star Free Agent than a team that tanked at the end of the year due to some stupid trades that got rid of talent. 

The funny thing is, is how fans say how valuable Kirk would be to a contender for his defense and versatility. Yet you want to trade him from this team, which supposedly is going to be a contender after getting this legendary star FA from the fabled FA class of '10. That's horse ****.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

Getting Bosh will remain my no.1 priority if I am the Bulls GM; whether it's through trade before the deadline, sign and trade during the offseason, or straight signing. It's not just because Bosh's status as one of the best big man in the league, but it's also because IMO his personality fits well with Rose and Noah (our main core). I don't want to sound like a Derrick Rose homer, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Derrick Rose have a much better chance to become an Alpha Dog than Chris Bosh; and the good thing is, I don't think Chris Bosh is the type that would mind playing second fiddle. This is important, because despite only have seen Derrick's improvement for a little less than 3 months, I am sold that he's going to be the main guy running the team. He needs to have the ball in his hands very often and create; because otherwise we'd be wasting his talent and the only purpose God put him on earth. This is why I like Chris Bosh better than Amare or Boozer who have inflated egos. Chris Bosh also plays harder than both.



Dornado said:


> Amare is not the answer, in my opinion.


I have a different opinion on Amare. Prior to this season, Amare was my no.1 choice ahead of Bosh. Because Amare has that killer demeanor which Bosh seem to be lacking. And Bosh seem to have too similar of a personality to the majority of players in our team; laid back, calm, and quiet (Hinrich, Deng, Salmons, Gordon and Rose). I thought we need someone different like Amare who can alter the team identity. But, so much has happened this season that led me to believe that Rose and Noah will be able to lead this team. Rose has developed that killer demeanor (silently...) and Noah have been the heart and soul of the team, the emotional leader who stands on the front line to lead the team to go to war. And I am now become confident that Bosh will do just fine. However, despite Amare's ego, he's still a very good PF in this league; and he's shown throughout his career that he knows how to play with an All-Star PG (which in a way he has to play second fiddle to). If Bosh pass on us or we screw it, I wouldn't be too disappointed if we end up with Amare. He's a risk I'm willing to deal with. Boozer, on the other hand, is a different story.

The Dwyane Wade/Joe Johnson thing becomes very interesting; especially with Rose's emergence lately. I understand that we should not take Rose for granted and dismiss the need for an All-Star SG like Wade (superstar) or JJ. But, I like to think that Wade/JJ is unnecessary. Call me crazy, but I really like how Kirk Hinrich play next to Derrick Rose. Hinrich takes pressure off Rose with the ball handling duty, but he also doesn't take away touches from Rose. I like JJ, he has the size, the shooting ability, and the ball handling ability to play that role. But is he willing to sacrifice touches for Rose? I'm almost sure Wade won't. One guy I like to bring to this conversation is Andre Iguodala; a fellow Chicagoan who possesses solid all-around skill (passing, ball-handling, defense), won't mind to play second fiddle, but a below average three point shooter. I don't really see his shooting as a big problem though, we have a shooter in Deng and I'm hoping that Deng's three point shot will continue to improve as the season progress (Hinrich and Salmons aren't much of a three point threat either).

So, here's the scenario I'm proposing:

1. Trade Hinrich + Thomas for Iguodala + Jason Smith (ESPN trade checker said the salary works). Iggy starts at SG. Salmons, Brown and Pargo as backup. Iggy and Brown (yes he can) will be asked to handle the ball when Rose sits.

2. My guess Bosh will stay in Toronto until the end of the season. I heard Colangelo is trying his best to convince Bosh to stay and is buying time until the offseason. The Raptors is pushing for a playoff spot (5th spot) so Bosh might stay around. Unless, a very good offer comes along. But unless that offer comes from a contending team, I doubt Bosh will resign with that team. What scary is if Cavs offer Shaq's expiring contract for Bosh (Shaq + Hickson for Bosh + Evans work on ESPN trade checker). Then James and Bosh might end up playing together for a long time. Otherwise, we pick up Bosh through FA.

3. With Iggy and Jason Smith, without Hinrich and Thomas on the roster, our total salary becomes 42.2. Do you guys think that's enough to sign a Max big man like Bosh? Knowing the salary cap is going to be lower next year.

Roster would basically look like:
PG - Rose/?
SG - Iguodala/Salmons
SF - Deng/James Johnson
PF - Bosh(or Amare)/Gibson
C - Noah/Smith


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Dunking a basketball with authority doesn't mean you have a "killer" demeanor... it means you can dunk. If anything I've seen an utter lack of killer instinct defensively from Amare Stoudemire, and that's what worries me.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

DaBabyBullz said:


> The funny thing is, is how fans say how valuable Kirk would be to a contender for his defense and versatility. Yet you want to trade him from this team, which supposedly is going to be a contender after getting this legendary star FA from the fabled FA class of '10. That's horse ****.


We have an all-star pg who is 21 years old...
Lakers have a _terrible_ pg who can't defend or do anything.

Not hard to understand why we would want to trade our 9 mil a year _other_ pg. Before an enormous FA class.
Or why Hinrich could really improve a team like the lakers...


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

With all the talk of Amare and Bosh I'm surprised Al Jefferson doesn't get mentioned more. He's one of the best post scorers in the league and the Wolves can't possibly plan to hold onto both Jefferson and Love long-term. If the supposed Jefferson for Granger proposal was legit, it isn't outlandish to think that Minny(who desperately needs a swingman) could be talked into Deng+assets for Jefferson. Such a trade would even preserve most of Chicago's cap space going into this offseason to add another significant piece.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Amare may not be the right piece but lets not act like hes below average, he is an allstar 4 a notch bellow Bosh but a notch above Boozer who is also going to get a ton of attention in the offseason. While I think Johnson and Bosh are targets 1 and 1b, Amare is a solid target #2. The point is he makes the team better and if all its going to cost is Salmons, Kirk and Miller why not.




I think he is several notches below Bosh, a notch below Boozer, and a notch below David Lee. I think Wade and Lebron are targets 1 & 1b, though I don't believe we will get either of them, Johnson and Bosh are probably 2 & 2b. It's true we could add Amare for nothing but things we will likely get rid of anyway, of Phoenix was agreeable to doing (something I am dubious on) but even so, if we wanted to keep him past this season we would have to sign him to a max deal in the offseason, is that something we really want to do?

ACE


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Bogg said:


> With all the talk of Amare and Bosh I'm surprised Al Jefferson doesn't get mentioned more. He's one of the best post scorers in the league and the Wolves can't possibly plan to hold onto both Jefferson and Love long-term. If the supposed Jefferson for Granger proposal was legit, it isn't outlandish to think that Minny(who desperately needs a swingman) could be talked into Deng+assets for Jefferson. Such a trade would even preserve most of Chicago's cap space going into this offseason to add another significant piece.




I talked about something similar on another board and it would be nice to add Jefferson to the front court.

ACE


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Well Ace.... talk about it here!


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

ace20004u said:


> I think he is several notches below Bosh, a notch below Boozer, and a notch below David Lee. I think Wade and Lebron are targets 1 & 1b, though I don't believe we will get either of them, Johnson and Bosh are probably 2 & 2b. It's true we could add Amare for nothing but things we will likely get rid of anyway, of Phoenix was agreeable to doing (something I am dubious on) but even so, if we wanted to keep him past this season we would have to sign him to a max deal in the offseason, is that something we really want to do?
> 
> ACE


Maybe I can agree with Amare being a couple of notches below Bosh but I would take Amare over Boozer any day of the week, I also think Amare is a much more dynamic scorer than Lee. I did leave out Wade and Lebron because I dont think they are moving. 

I just think Amare can be a steal, especially if he reverts to his form from only 2 seasons ago when he averaged a whopping 25 ppg and 9 rebounds, his FG% is still very good, I just think hes not happy in Phoenix and could be rejuvenated in the east and playing for the Bulls.

Any time you can get a legit 20 ppg big you gotta take that chance, remember the Zach Randolph talks a couple of years ago, how nobody wanted him, well look at him now. Hes turned Memphis of all places into a borderline playoff team in the WEST! 

A change of scenery can do wonders and I think Amare is still good enough to make a huge impact on this team.


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

Amare did well enough when he played with Starbury, so he's not necessarily a byproduct of the D'Antoni system. His knee injury might be a concern, but he still managed to average 2.2 blocks and make All-NBA teams. Plus, he's still in the top 5 in the league's most explosive/powerful dunkers -- probably a good reason why his FG% is hovering around 55.

If the Bulls stand pat and only renounce Tyrus' contract their cap space is still below max contract level. 

It'll be hard to "just" trade Hinrich and Salmons when they're the Bulls' two best perimeter defenders, which is why Deng may have to be a trade piece. Whether it's Stoudemire or Bosh, both of them are top 5 PFs in the league, while Deng is a borderline top 10 SF.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

TwinkieTowers said:


> Amare did well enough when he played with Starbury, so he's not necessarily a byproduct of the D'Antoni system. His knee injury might be a concern, but he still managed to average 2.2 blocks and make All-NBA teams. Plus, he's still in the top 5 in the league's most explosive/powerful dunkers -- probably a good reason why his FG% is hovering around 55.
> 
> *If the Bulls stand pat and only renounce Tyrus' contract their cap space is still below max contract level. *
> 
> It'll be hard to "just" trade Hinrich and Salmons when they're the Bulls' two best perimeter defenders, which is why Deng may have to be a trade piece. Whether it's Stoudemire or Bosh, both of them are top 5 PFs in the league, while Deng is a borderline top 10 SF.


not true...
Unless the salary cap drops below 54 mil. Which no one seems to expect to happen.


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

caseyrh said:


> not true...
> Unless the salary cap drops below 54 mil. Which no one seems to expect to happen.


It still may be true, even if the cap is around 55-56 million, because they still have to pay for their draft pick, should they keep his rights. That is, unless the Bulls go on a miraculous roll that they end up drafting in the mid-20s.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

caseyrh said:


> not true...
> Unless the salary cap drops below 54 mil. Which no one seems to expect to happen.


Last projections I heard coming out of the league was somewhere between 53 and 50 million. Has the league released updated projections lately?


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

Bogg said:


> Last projections I heard coming out of the league was somewhere between 53 and 50 million. Has the league released updated projections lately?


The NBA did not release anything directly to my knowledge. But I saw an article recently (on espn i believe) stating that all the talk about the salary cap dropping significantly was not going to happen. They referenced league revenue and it all seemed pretty factual. They basically said that it wasn't even a sure thing that the cap would drop and made it seem like if it did it would only be a couple mil. At least that is how I read it. I will do some digging and see if I can find it though.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

TwinkieTowers said:


> It still may be true, even if the cap is around 55-56 million, because they still have to pay for their draft pick, should they keep his rights. That is, unless the Bulls go on a miraculous roll that they end up drafting in the mid-20s.


True the pick could present a problem if we don't do anything. But a mid round pick is only a little over 1 mil. And even if it was the decider I am sure it would be easy enough to trade it for a future first.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

Well I couldn't find the article...
I searched ESPN and I found this title for an article from 12/24/09.



> Could the 2010-2011 NBA salary cap end up with a little more breathing room than expected?


I think that was what i was referencing but all I can see is the title not the actual article so I don't know.
Maybe it was hopeful reading and memory on my part.

But Either way I can't see a huge salary cap reduction because it doesn't make sense that the NBA would see such a dramatic difference in revenue from this year to the last.

ALL of these 50-53 mil projections are based on one memo released from the NBA in like july when everyone seemed to think the sky was falling.

Who knows. I guess we will find out. IMO the cap won't change much probably less than 2 mil. But I don't have anything to quantify that. Just opinion.


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## BenDengGo (Feb 1, 2004)

offer the max to lebron, i dont care if he doesnt take it, atleast we tried...


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

TwinkieTowers said:


> Amare did well enough when he played with Starbury, so he's not necessarily a byproduct of the D'Antoni system.


D'Antoni came in 20 games into Amare's 2nd season (his first season he averaged 13.5 ppg).... so the sample size is pretty small there.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Dornado said:


> D'Antoni came in 20 games into Amare's 2nd season (his first season he averaged 13.5 ppg).... so the sample size is pretty small there.


Hes still putting up 20 and 9 and not playing for D'Antoni.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Hes still putting up 20 and 9 and not playing for D'Antoni.


and not guarding anyone... and about to be way overpaid.


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## JPTurbo (Jan 8, 2006)

I really want to acquire Chris Bosh. He is my #1 target, assuming LeBron is out of the question. I think pairing him with Rose would be a very good tandem. 

With that said, one guy who has been mentioned in trade rumors that I would be ecstatic to get is Kevin Martin from Sacramento. He has been injured and playing not up to par this year but I think if we could somehow get Bosh and Martin while keeping Rose, Deng, Noah, we would be ridiculously stacked. I like Martin's game a lot and playing with Rose and Bosh would give us two stars and really good players with Deng and Martin.

Rose
Martin
Deng
Bosh
Noah

That team is primed to go the distance. We have a lot of pieces in Hinrich, Miller, Tyrus, Salmons, first rounder, etc... I don't know if it's possible, but it would be worth a shot to try.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

The only issue with Martin is that he's showing himself to be injury prone to this point. When he's healthy, he's a machine, but I don't know if we could rely on him. Healthy, though, that team'd be good to go.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Somehow get the Lakers Hinrich and I will personally kidnap Bosh and put him in Chicago.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

VanillaPrice said:


> Somehow get the Lakers Hinrich and I will personally kidnap Bosh and put him in Chicago.


:laugh:

We'll see what we can do.


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## calabreseboy (Nov 17, 2004)

I love how everyone is saying how "overrated" and "overpaid" Amare is, like as if beggars can be choosers. What it comes down to is we need a low post scorer. Once upon a time, everyone was dissing Zach Randolph, albeit his 20 and 10 numbers, and now he is an All-Star and leading Memphis to a playoff spot in the West. Maybe Amare can't defend, but he can score. That's what we've needed for, what, 8 years now? A low-post scorer.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

calabreseboy said:


> I love how everyone is saying how "overrated" and "overpaid" Amare is, like as if beggars can be choosers. *What it comes down to is we need a low post scorer*. Once upon a time, everyone was dissing Zach Randolph, albeit his 20 and 10 numbers, and now he is an All-Star and leading Memphis to a playoff spot in the West. Maybe Amare can't defend, but he can score. That's what we've needed for, what, 8 years now? A low-post scorer.


Yeah a low post scorer, which Amare is not. Amare is a great finisher thats all. You cant throw the ball to him in the post and let him go to work. You need to run and gun with him and get the defense moving and then he will find a lane and if you get it to him he will finish. But that is pretty much all he does. Zach Randolph is a different animal and I always liked him btw. 
If we could trade Hinrich and Salmons for him I would do it in a heartbeat see how he works out and then either let him walk and get the cap space or resign him on the cheap. No way in hell would I give a vital piece like Deng or Noah up for him though.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

I would add that while I'm happy for Zach Randolph, I don't think "making the playoffs" is the point.. I want our goal to be a ring... I don't think Amare is the right choice to get us there.


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

caseyrh said:


> Yeah a low post scorer, which Amare is not. Amare is a great finisher thats all. You cant throw the ball to him in the post and let him go to work.


Dwight Howard is not a low post scorer either. How many frontcourt players do you know who can shoot 55% from the field and average over 20 points per game?


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I just dont get these "Defense" arguments, its not like Amare is going to be defending in prime Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Mourning, or Robinson if he comes here. Today's NBA really is geared towards scoring, Howard is probably the only real low post threat and hes not even that good of a post scorer. 

Amare's scoring cancels out any real need for a good post defender, Noah is borderline average as a defender, Taj is a bit better but makes way too many mistakes and both are not guarded at all on defense and yet they are still .500, imagine what a real 20ppg big man does for this team.


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

> Noah is borderline average as a defender, Taj is a bit better


I think both are very good defenders and outstanding rebounders, and they do good a job of denying easy drives to the lane, but they are still undersized and easily get tossed around by the likes of Bynum, Gasol (Pau and Marc), Kaman, Bogut, and other teams with prototypical-sized frontcourt players.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

TwinkieTowers said:


> I think both are very good defenders and outstanding rebounders, and they do good a job of denying easy drives to the lane, but they are still undersized and easily get tossed around by the likes of Bynum, Gasol (Pau and Marc), Kaman, Bogut, and other teams with prototypical-sized frontcourt players.


Noah is an outstanding rebounder but hes not a very good defender, hes a solid help defense guy but when a bigger player post's him up hes not strong enough to be considered good, maybe a couple of seasons from now he can be called very good but not right now.

It seems like he gives up as many double double as he gets them.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

TwinkieTowers said:


> Dwight Howard is not a low post scorer either. How many frontcourt players do you know who can shoot 55% from the field and average over 20 points per game?


Well dwight Howard plays great D and is a great Rebounder which are my two biggest complaints with Amare.
But I can name Boozer, Lee, Bosh, Dirk all score basically the same or better than Amare and all of them are scheduled to be FA next year. All of them are much better rebounders. So I don't feel like it is such a neccissity to acquire Amare. But like I said it is all about who we give up to me Deng is better than Amare so I wouldnt do that. But if it was a combo of players not named Noah, Rose, or Deng I would do it.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

I would not trade Deng for Amare, unless it was inluded in a package and the package brought us back more than just Amare. 

Amare could leave this summer, we lose Deng for nothing, we cant afford to do that and win.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

TwinkieTowers said:


> Dwight Howard is not a low post scorer either. How many frontcourt players do you know who can shoot 55% from the field and average over 20 points per game?


Howard isn't a guy with an excellent back to the basket game, but he can D it up, as has been mentioned... I'm not saying Amare isn't a talented guy, and sure, he can score... I just don't think he's worth what we'd give up in players/money to get him.




thebizkit69u said:


> I just dont get these "Defense" arguments, its not like Amare is going to be defending in prime Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Mourning, or Robinson if he comes here. Today's NBA really is geared towards scoring, Howard is probably the only real low post threat and hes not even that good of a post scorer.
> 
> Amare's scoring cancels out any real need for a good post defender, Noah is borderline average as a defender, Taj is a bit better but makes way too many mistakes and both are not guarded at all on defense and yet they are still .500, imagine what a real 20ppg big man does for this team.


I think you vastly underrate the need for interior defense... you can say that today's game is "more geared towards scoring"... but what the hell are you basing that on? Look at who wins championships - teams that can protect the hoop. Yes we have a few decent interior defender now in Noah/Gibson/Thomas... but signing or trading for Amare means you've got 35 minutes of soft-*** matador D in the lineup. Not worth it.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Noah is an outstanding rebounder but hes not a very good defender, hes a solid help defense guy but when a bigger player post's him up hes not strong enough to be considered good, maybe a couple of seasons from now he can be called very good but not right now.
> 
> It seems like he gives up as many double double as he gets them.



Ehh, he's a pretty good man defender. There aren't that many huge centers out there who are also big offensive threats.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Ehh, he's a pretty good man defender. There aren't that many huge centers out there who are also big offensive threats.


He needs to put on weight, once he gets stopped from being pushed around, he will be a great defender.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

truebluefan said:


> He needs to put on weight, once he gets stopped from being pushed around, he will be a great defender.



I agree with that. He's noticeably stronger this year and has a way to go. My only point was there aren't a ton of power scoring centers these days, so he's been able to get by with the lanky frame. It's not ideal, but there are fewer bangers than there used to be.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> I think you vastly underrate the need for interior defense... you can say that today's game is "more geared towards scoring"... but what the hell are you basing that on? Look at who wins championships - teams that can protect the hoop. Yes we have a few decent interior defender now in Noah/Gibson/Thomas... but signing or trading for Amare means you've got 35 minutes of soft-*** matador D in the lineup. Not worth it.


Teams that have been winning titles have superstars.

Wasn't Gasol considered "Soft" before coming to the Lakers? If it wasn't for him the Lakers would not have won a title last season or even competed for one the season before that. 

Ewing was not known for being a great defender yet he and a bunch of solid role players kept the Knicks in the Championship hunt in the East.

Morning was considered by many to be the best defensive center in the NBA at one time, how many championships did they win in his prime?

Mutombo? 

The point is if you have a good enough team around a guy like Amare you can win a championship or at the very least compete for a Conference title. IMO perimeter defense is much more important than a true post defender. Will Noah struggle against guys like Horford, Bogut, Howard and even Perkins sure, but I'm more worried about the Wades, Lebrons, Pierces, Allens, Johnsons, etc of the world. 

Besides if Noah is a good help defender you dont need Amare to lock down his man all the time.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Teams that have been winning titles have superstars.
> 
> Wasn't Gasol considered "Soft" before coming to the Lakers? If it wasn't for him the Lakers would not have won a title last season or even competed for one the season before that.
> 
> ...


I think we agree on the superstar thing - that's the key element.

Gasol, however he was labeled, teamed with Bynum to provide great size and solid interior D for the Lakers last year. 

I don't get the Ewing point... he was actually a pretty decent defender (all defensive 2nd team twice, was in the top 10 in blocks 11 times in his career).... Mourning kept his teams competitive but they lacked another superstar to put them over the top (until he picked up that ring late in his career) and Dikembe played on some solid but unspectacular teams that would have been significantly worse without him.

Amare, back before the injuries, played on some pretty stacked teams... what makes you think we'll assemble a better cast than that? I just don't think he qualifies as a "superstar" at this point... all-star, sure...


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

This blogger at SBNation seem to believe that there have been some serious talks between the Bulls and the Suns regarding Amare.

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2010/1/30/1284327/breaking-down-a-potential-bulls

In short, the author doesn't like the rumor that's going on over there which Tyrus Thomas is the centerpiece of the deal. He really likes Deng as a player, but notice that Deng's huge contract is a problem. He also likes Gibson a lot.

There's a poll at the end of the article about which trade scenario Suns fan would like the most (220 votes):

- 29% None of the above
- 26% Miller and Tyrus and Bulls 1st rd pick for Amare 
- 18% Deng, Salmons, James for Amare and Leandro
- 15% Hinrich, James, Salmons, Gibson for Amare and Leandro
- 10% Hinrich and Salmons and Bulls 1st rd pick


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

RSP83 said:


> This blogger at SBNation seem to believe that there have been some serious talks between the Bulls and the Suns regarding Amare.
> 
> http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2010/1/30/1284327/breaking-down-a-potential-bulls
> 
> ...


I know which one would be my choice. Hands down, especially now that I see Rudy Gay is going to be a FA as well. Trade Deng, pick up a vastly superior player in Gay in FA to replace him, plus get Amare Stoudemire. Slam dunk right there. I really don't like Leandro though, dude bugs me.

Rose, Hinrich
Hinrich, Barbosa
Gay, JJ
Amare, Tyrus
Noah, 

(draft...we'd have a high pick without a SF after both Deng and Salmons are traded as JJ sucks balls at this point in time. Take either Aldrich to be the 3rd big man after Tyrus walks, or a SG like Evan Turner if the pick is high enough)


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

DaBabyBullz said:


> I know which one would be my choice. Hands down, especially now that I see Rudy Gay is going to be a FA as well. Trade Deng, pick up a vastly superior player in Gay in FA to replace him, plus get Amare Stoudemire. Slam dunk right there. I really don't like Leandro though, dude bugs me.
> 
> Rose, Hinrich
> Hinrich, Barbosa
> ...


So unrealistic...
Not to mention that apparently you think we would be worse after trading Deng for Amare. If that's the case why do you want to do it?


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I think Gay will become to expensive for the Bull's. Someone out there will give him a Deng'ish contract because Gay still has a very high ceiling and hes producing. Gay reminds me of Rose in a way, Gay just needs to get a much more aggressive mindset because hes got all the tool's and skills in the world to be a great player, he just needs more motivation. Maybe Rose could help him becoming more aggressive.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Dornado said:


> I think we agree on the superstar thing - that's the key element.
> 
> Gasol, however he was labeled, teamed with Bynum to provide great size and solid interior D for the Lakers last year.
> 
> ...


Maybe a combined Noah and Taj can be Amare's Bynum?

Ewing was good but not on the same level as Mourning and Mutombo defensively yet he was still able to compete for a Conference Title and no doubt in my mind if it was not for (the perimeter orienter) Bulls and Pacers they would have won a title.

Well in 07-08 they lost to a better team in the Spurs.
In 06-07 they got absolutely screwed by the Ref's against the Spurs, remember when they Suspended Diaw and Amare a game, Spurs won that series and went on to beat an over matched Cav's team easily in the Finals. No doubt the Suns would have won if they did not get screwed by the refs.
06-05 they lost the western title to the Mavs who where a better team.

Its not like the Suns did not compete and thats in the West, I think it would be much easier for the Bulls to compete in the East with Amare.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

caseyrh said:


> So unrealistic...
> Not to mention that apparently you think we would be worse after trading Deng for Amare. If that's the case why do you want to do it?


Well if we did that trade we wouldn't really have a SF, but Tyrus could play there some and JJ. Last time I checked we were on the edge of the lotto. Aldrich was projected as a late lotto at the time. Not that far off. We'd have zero depth at SG behind Kirk and Rose too, well I was forgetting about the new guy, so that part of my reasoning was off a bit since I just realized we would have one more backcourt player I hadn't accounted for. 

It's a long term thing. Getting rid of Deng's contract, and either having Amare or that much more free cap space to go after 2 different FAs. Can you imagine the explosiveness of a team with this lineup (if they lucked into a top pick to take a SG):

Rose
Turner
Gay
Stoudemire
Noah

That is one big, fast, explosive team right there. Sure it's a long shot, but all of it could happen if they played their cards right and lucked into a high pick for Turner.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

... and in 4 years we'll all be complaining about Stoudemire's contract instead of Deng's


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Dornado said:


> ... and in 4 years we'll all be complaining about Stoudemire's contract instead of Deng's


We would be complaining about Wade's or Lebrons contract also if they dont win us a Championship.

Fan's will always find something to complain about but obviously if we pay these guys to win a title and they don't win one, people will be pissed.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Dornado said:


> ... and in 4 years we'll all be complaining about Stoudemire's contract instead of Deng's


Depends on if he's a sissy missing half the season like Deng has in recent years. If so, then yes lol.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

DaBabyBullz said:


> Depends on if he's a sissy missing half the season like Deng has in recent years. If so, then yes lol.


Amare just missed half of last season. By your definition he is already a sissy.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

DaBabyBullz said:


> Depends on if he's a sissy missing half the season like Deng has in recent years. If so, then yes lol.


Didn't Hinrich sit out about half of last year? That sissy.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

caseyrh said:


> Amare just missed half of last season. By your definition he is already a sissy.


Dint he miss half of last season because his eye freaking came out of his head lol? 

Or was it the knee?


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Dint he miss half of last season because his eye freaking came out of his head lol?
> 
> Or was it the knee?


It was his eye that time. I was just joking though. I'm sure he is not a sissy, injuries happen. But I would be concerned about the knee. He had microfracture surgery right? That's supposed to be as bad as it gets for athletes he seems to be ok now, but you would have to worry about that when giving him a long term contract.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Well, look at Kirk and Amare's careers. Kirk has been durable every year until last year. Never playing in less than 75 games a season. Compare that to sissy boy Deng, who in his 5 year career had he had seasons of 61, 63 and 49. So he missed 1/4 of a season twice, and 2/5 of a season another time. That's a major case of sissyitis. Amare, he has been durable except the major knee injury season, and the eye injury season...both of which were freak accidents. Deng has a trend of being a sissy and missing games, which is really pathetic when you look at how finesse he plays the game compared to both Hinrich and Stoudemire.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

caseyrh said:


> It was his eye that time. I was just joking though. I'm sure he is not a sissy, injuries happen. But I would be concerned about the knee. He had microfracture surgery right? That's supposed to be as bad as it gets for athletes he seems to be ok now, but you would have to worry about that when giving him a long term contract.


I would have to of course give Stoudemire a very comprehensive physical before I signed him or traded for him, but I think his knee has proven to be healthy. The 2 seasons following his knee surgery, he played in 82 and 79 games. The eye kept him out last year. That would have to be checked out too of course.


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

DaBabyBullz said:


> I know which one would be my choice. Hands down, especially now that I see Rudy Gay is going to be a FA as well. Trade Deng, pick up a vastly superior player in Gay in FA to replace him, plus get Amare Stoudemire.


While Gay's physical tools are superior to Deng's, Deng has a vastly superior basketball IQ. Presently, it's what's keeping him from being a 25 and 8 player.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

TwinkieTowers said:


> While Gay's physical tools are superior to Deng's, Deng has a vastly superior basketball IQ. Presently, it's what's keeping him from being a 25 and 8 player.


Well, Gay is a year and a half younger than Deng. He has 2 years less experience in the NBA. His #s now are BETTER already. He is a better athlete. I don't see how it's even comparable.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

DaBabyBullz said:


> Well, Gay is a year and a half younger than Deng. He has 2 years less experience in the NBA. His #s now are BETTER already. He is a better athlete. I don't see how it's even comparable.


Gay's stats are just _barely_ better. To simplify Gay's PER is 17 Deng's PER is 16.5. But other than that Deng is a better defender and thus has a much better adjusted plus minus (+17.6 compared to +1.7). Honestly I am not sure who is better between them but If I knew both were going to stay healthy for the rest of their careers I would much rather have Deng. I just feel like his game is much more suited to being a third option on a championship caliber team than Gay is as a third option. IMO Deng would be the best third option in the NBA.


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

I'll say this, though. If it weren't for Deng the Bulls would've drafted Gay instead of Thomas (via trade for Aldridge). You know, the year Paxson said "Screw it. I'm going for potential this time."


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

TwinkieTowers said:


> I'll say this, though. If it weren't for Deng the Bulls would've drafted Gay instead of Thomas (via trade for Aldridge). You know, the year Paxson said "Screw it. I'm going for potential this time."


Man I really didn't need ANOTHER reason to dislike Deng lol.


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