# Jordan to Shaq



## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

Ok so we have watched Kobe and Shaq now for a long time. And Shaq has obviously been sent away to Miami.

Personally, I dont think the Lakers are in trouble. And I do think Kobe will raise his game to another level next year. I believe Lamar (USA BASKETBALL, and drug free we hope) Odom should start. Butler should start. Kobe obviously should start.

And I suggested a trade for say Dalembert and Snow. I think they will go after a center. And maybe make a change at point guard.
But with GP and Brian Grant in their lineup they still are not going to be in the lottery. I'm not worried about that at all.

What we know is Scottie Pippen (underrated as a superstar obviously) always deferred to Jordan. Thats why that team was "one of a kind" Lets say Shaq came into the league when Pippen did and played for the Bulls. He obvious IMO would not defer to jordan. Because he believes he is the most dominant player of all time. 

Would their duo work out as well, worse or the same as Kobe and Shaq did?


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Phil has said before that, in their primes, Shaq would have been the #1 option on a team with Jordan. So I say yes, it would have worked, because Jordan respected Phil Jackson enough to defer. 

Though who really knows, Jordan was so competitive and Shaq is so egomaniacal that it might not have worked, or at least not as well as the 90's Bull run did.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Shaq is so egomaniacal that it might not have worked, or at least not as well as the 90's Bull run did.


Kinda what I thought. I think it would have gone surprisingly similar to what we have seen. Although jordan never faced anything as serious as a rape trial. So id say what we have seen on the court.

obviously they would win championships. But I think their would be a power struggle. And jordan would have been older as opposed to younger than than Shaq. So when Shaq joined the team jordan would already have been the number one option. I think things would have gotten crazy. Phil was younger too obviously.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Shaq had a lot more respect for Jordan than he does for Kobe. They would have been unstoppable together.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>nbanoitall</b>!
> 
> 
> Kinda what I thought. I think it would have gone surprisingly similar to what we have seen. Although jordan never faced anything as serious as a rape trial. So id say what we have seen on the court.
> ...


Ditto with everything. Quite frankly, I think it's much too complicated to predict. But it's fun to think about. A Shaq-Jordan duo sends chills down my spine.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Ditto with everything. Quite frankly, I think it's much too complicated to predict. But it's fun to think about. A Shaq-Jordan duo sends chills down my spine.


Yea me too. This thread is just my sick way of justifying why Kobe might have a chance to be the best player in the league. A lot of people dont think that is possible. I think it is possible and there is a chance that it happens. He is a big time player. And he now gets his chance to prove it. Just like Jordan.

I'm not taking sides at all here. But with shaq and kobe on the roster the team didnt have enough role players. So management had to make a move, and sent the older guy away. Thats what it boils down to IMO.


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## espy (May 25, 2004)

I would hope, that Jordan and Shaq both share such a common respect for each other, and for Phil Jackson, that they are both capable of playing together without having any fights.

But maybe I'm just being naive. 

*shrugs shoulders*


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

Well, Jordan at Kobe's age and put into Kobe's situation, he would've been #2 to Shaq, too. They would've won a couple of titles together, but they would quarrel and split their ways some years later. Jordan was one of the most tenacious competitors, who wouldn't want to be #2 to an ageing Shaq. And Shaq is, as he said, "too big to ride on the backseat of anybodys car". One of them would've demanded a trade.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Shaq had a lot more respect for Jordan than he does for Kobe. They would have been unstoppable together.


very true. MJ was already very established when shaq entered the league. i'm sure that shaq would have deferred to MJ with no problem. i also think that they could've stayed together so long that eventually shaq would have become the #1 option and MJ would have deferred to him.

they would probably have won it all every year of the 90's they played.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

it is, however, a different issue when you have a big man coming into the league with an established star perimeter player than the other way around.

young shaq coming into a team with jordan is far different than young jordan coming into a team with shaq. the big man needs the perimeter player to feed him the rock. an established shaq not getting fed by the newbie jordan is alot harder to picture than a newbie shaq not getting fed by a dominant jordan.

it's easier to picture shaq fitting in with a dominant jordan than picturing jordan deferring to shaq for an extended period of time and both staying happy.


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## ufm19 (Jun 7, 2004)

yes they would've won titles but both are too obsessed about being the main man remember jordan used to be one of the worst ballhogs ever he would never defer to a big guy even one as good as Shaq. He likes to shoot his team into games. They would be the most powerful team, better than the Lakesr were if they were surrounded with good role players, but there would be no Celticesque dynasty.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

you know, the year that the pairing occurred could also influence how it would have worked out. for better or worse, the paradigm of how we view nba superstars changed with jordan. bird and magic and russell and kareem were the existing paradigm. wilt for all his dominance was kinda the poster boy for the need to not worry as much about who was the man. jordan was able to be both the dominant individual and the winner, and now everyone wants to be jordan. but years ago there was less concern over who "the man" was. it was accepted that you couldn't do it alone. jordan didn't disprove that, but to some he did.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>nbanoitall</b>!
> Ok so we have watched Kobe and Shaq now for a long time. And Shaq has obviously been sent away to Miami.
> 
> Personally, I dont think the Lakers are in trouble. And I do think Kobe will raise his game to another level next year. I believe Lamar (USA BASKETBALL, and drug free we hope) Odom should start. Butler should start. Kobe obviously should start.
> ...


Ok how does Butler start? Odom will play the three and Grant the four. Odom can't play the four because you guys are signing either Divac or Malone. That means Grant and either Divac or Malone up front, Odom at the three and Bryant at the two.

So how does Butler start? 

Secondly yes Shaq would defer to Jordan, because unlike Kobe...Jordan is BETTER than Shaq. Jordan won MVP and DPOY Pippen's rookie year and would have done so with Shaq. Pippen played a measly 20 minutes per game. 

Jordan is better than Kobe and he's better than Shaq. Pick a statement to contest. Do you feel that Kobe is better than MJ? I'll be happy to slaughter that argument. Do you feel that Shaq is better than MJ? I'll be happy to slaughter that argument as well.

Consider that at Shaq's age Jordan had 4 MVPs.....not one. 

As far as a Jordan Shaq duo......Jordan was better than Kobe at taking the ball straight to the cup and dunking on multiple defenders. Three, four.....didn't matter when MJ was young. With Shaq waiting to grab a pass if players went at MJ it would have been sick. MJ would have averaged 32. Shaq would have averaged 30 and they both would have run roughshot over the league.

Unlike Kobe.......Shaq respects and respected Jordan. In fact when Jordan retired in 1993 there are clips of Shaq gushing about what a great player MJ is and how "stuff he does, it's like, 'you can't do dat.'" That's KIND of different than calling him "Showboat" don't you think?

Kobe will not raise his game because his game consists of settling for long jumpers whenever a second defender even hints at coming near him.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Phil has said before that, in their primes, Shaq would have been the #1 option on a team with Jordan. So I say yes, it would have worked, because Jordan respected Phil Jackson enough to defer.
> 
> Though who really knows, Jordan was so competitive and Shaq is so egomaniacal that it might not have worked, or at least not as well as the 90's Bull run did.


LOL Phil is garbage. Do you expect anyone to give legitimacy to the praises he laid upon his CURRENT players at the expense of his PAST players when he made those statements. Who is he coaching when he makes those bogus claims? Who does he have to keep happy?

Anyway.....someone on Jordan's sportscentury makes a more accurate claim than any ive ever heard from Phil......"Jordan was the coach of those teams." Nobody feared Phil. They feared Jordan.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>nbanoitall</b>!
> 
> 
> Kinda what I thought. I think it would have gone surprisingly similar to what we have seen. Although jordan never faced anything as serious as a rape trial. So id say what we have seen on the court.
> ...


LOL Phil wasn't the coach when Pippen joined the Bulls...so it would have been kind of hard for him to have a say.

Maybe you should analyze how DOUG COLLINS would have handled the situation.....which would be to give MJ whatever he wanted


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>bender</b>!
> Well, Jordan at Kobe's age and put into Kobe's situation, he would've been #2 to Shaq, too. They would've won a couple of titles together, but they would quarrel and split their ways some years later. Jordan was one of the most tenacious competitors, who wouldn't want to be #2 to an ageing Shaq. And Shaq is, as he said, "too big to ride on the backseat of anybodys car". One of them would've demanded a trade.


But Jordan could do something Kobe couldn't.....take the ball down to the bucket on multiple defenders and throw down a tomahawk dunk over contact. When you can keep the ball and score on whoever you want at a clip of 53.5%, you don't need to pass to anyone. But Jordan was a better passer than Kobe too, so he would have also found a way to make the big fella happy.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> it is, however, a different issue when you have a big man coming into the league with an established star perimeter player than the other way around.
> 
> young shaq coming into a team with jordan is far different than young jordan coming into a team with shaq. the big man needs the perimeter player to feed him the rock. an established shaq not getting fed by the newbie jordan is alot harder to picture than a newbie shaq not getting fed by a dominant jordan.
> ...


Jordan would not have fed the ball to Shaq. Jordan would have sat on one side of the court with Shaq on the low post on the other side. Jordan then drives to the bucket....and takes off.....if anyone comes at him....alley oop to Shaq coming in from the other side.

It becomes.....which of the two most dominant players in their eras do you want to kill you? Notice how Kobe doesn't fit into that sentence.....that's the huge difference.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ufm19</b>!
> yes they would've won titles but both are too obsessed about being the main man remember jordan used to be one of the worst ballhogs ever he would never defer to a big guy even one as good as Shaq. He likes to shoot his team into games. They would be the most powerful team, better than the Lakesr were if they were surrounded with good role players, but there would be no Celticesque dynasty.


Are you serious?

WOW. Jordan was never selfish. Jordan "refused to pass the ball to a teammate who had a worse shot at scoring wide open, than he did at scoring double teamed." Shaq does not fit that description.

Jordan led all SGs in APG during his career.

As for no dynasty.....so Shaq joins the Bulls in 1998. Shaq, Horace, free agent SF role player, Jordan, Paxson. WHO BEATS THAT TEAM EVER?


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> you know, the year that the pairing occurred could also influence how it would have worked out. for better or worse, the paradigm of how we view nba superstars changed with jordan. bird and magic and russell and kareem were the existing paradigm. wilt for all his dominance was kinda the poster boy for the need to not worry as much about who was the man. jordan was able to be both the dominant individual and the winner, and now everyone wants to be jordan. but years ago there was less concern over who "the man" was. it was accepted that you couldn't do it alone. jordan didn't disprove that, but to some he did.


Good point...even after Jordan.....we know that no one can do it alone. What he did was did "it" with less than anyone else had ever done "it" with.


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## Head Case (Jul 18, 2004)

They would have worked great. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't. MJ isn't Kobe Bryant. Isn't as selfish.


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> But Jordan could do something Kobe couldn't.....take the ball down to the bucket on multiple defenders and throw down a tomahawk dunk over contact. When you can keep the ball and score on whoever you want at a clip of 53.5%, you don't need to pass to anyone.


True. But if you're the rookie in a team with Shaq, you're #2. No matter who you are. And Jordan's ego would never allowed him to be 2nd to anyone, including Shaq. Jordan and Shaq are too good to play together, their egos are too big.
I know you're a big Jordan fan, but you got to agree that Jordan was one of the most selfish and arrogant players ever. That's one of the reason why he was that good, most great players were arrogant (see Larry Bird).


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## Like A Breath (Jun 16, 2003)

Jordan was never selfish in college when he had players that were better than him. He gladly deferred for the sake of winning, he's not Kobe Bryant.


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## ufm19 (Jun 7, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you serious?
> ...


what? you must be referring to 1993 maybe or something like that because in 1998 Horace and Paxson were long gone and i hate to help you but you forgot a little player called, oh yes, Scottie Pippen. 
1) you must be blind to reality and have watched too many Nike, Gatorade, NBC and NBA advertisements: show me a link to where he led all SGs in APG in his career. You said he had the most SPG ever so I definitely think you are lying plus many offenses don't have an established SG.

2) you must have not caught many late 1980s basketball games, where Jordan was maligned because of he was considered the worst ballhog in the league and didn't set up his teammates like Bird and Magic did. For example, the 1986 game where he scored 63 points against Boston that everyone talks about. Notice his team lost, so what's the point? Boston probly said "let him be the ballhog he is we are too good a team there's no way one player can beat us". Or his 61-point game in 1993 when he wanted to prove Shaq was nothing compared to him against Orlando, where he took 49 shots and had just 1 assist in a loss. Or the 1993 Game 4 against New York when MJ repeatedly shot the ball down the stretch with a big lead and Chicago ended up almost blowing the game. Believe it, MJ was one of the most notorious ballhogs in NBA history in the late 1980s and at times in the early '90s, tho less so. 

3) we have had this argument many times MJ IS NOT GOD LB! You treat him like a perfect, unselfish, always-winning player. All anyone


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>bender</b>!
> 
> True. But if you're the rookie in a team with Shaq, you're #2. No matter who you are. And Jordan's ego would never allowed him to be 2nd to anyone, including Shaq. Jordan and Shaq are too good to play together, their egos are too big.
> I know you're a big Jordan fan, but you got to agree that Jordan was one of the most selfish and arrogant players ever. That's one of the reason why he was that good, most great players were arrogant (see Larry Bird).


Jordan wasn't selfish. That's a label that Celtic and Laker fans put on him during the days of Magic and Bird to preserve the greatness of their favorite players in the face of a juggernaut never before seen. It was their only counter-argument.

Jordan and Shaq would have worked great. They both could have averaged 30 PPG or more and there wouldn't even need to be talk of "who is the man" because both players would be happy. The Bulls of 1989 with Shaq as a rookie or the Lakers of 1997 with Jordan as a rookie both score 125 points a game.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ufm19</b>!
> 
> 
> what? you must be referring to 1993 maybe or something like that because in 1998 Horace and Paxson were long gone and i hate to help you but you forgot a little player called, oh yes, Scottie Pippen.
> ...


Sorry was supposed to say 1988...Pippen's rookie year

It's not linked it was on NBC. During Jordan's career, which in my mind spanned only 1985-1998 he averaged 5.3 APG. Show me another SG who averaged that during that span. Why is this so hard to believe. He averaged 8 APG one season. Has Kobe ever come within 2 APG of that?

LMAO do you know the last Laker fan who came at me like that got punched in the face and I stood over him asking "who's better now." That's usually the way to handle little surfer 160 lb. Laker fans.

Anyway.....ok yes...you're right. A team with FIVE hall of famers beat Jordan in overtime. Magic HAD to make Worthy and Kareem better. Bird HAD to make McHale and Parrish better. Jordan GOT to make Oakley and Corzine better. I see your point now.

They didn't make their teammates any better than Jordan *who averaged 8 APG in one season IN THE LATE 80S*.....they HAD BETTER TEAMMATES. 

Great point.......MJ had games where everything didn't go his way. Wow you've proved a lot. Jordan ALMOST lost a playoff game where he scored more than 50 points. 

This is a joke. Jordan contributed more to a winning effort than Bird or Magic ever dreamed of contributing. Jordan before 1988 just never played with a player of the cailber Kareem, Worthy, McHale, Parrish, or Johnson. Hell who on Jordan's 84-88 Bulls teams was even as good as McAdoo or Walton?

MJ is by far better than any Laker ever....including Shaq. Shaq would have whined and Jordan would have had to have his hands detached from Shaq's grill. 

Don't even forget that politically Jordan could get to anyone EVEN SHAQ. Don't believe me? Ask Isiah why he didn't play on the dream team. Here's a hint.....the answer won't be "Because I wasn't good enough."

ROFLMAO @ the "Jordan couldn't make his teammates as good as Tragic made Jabbar and Worthy. Did I mention that Jabbar won 5 MVPs before he ever met Magic and that Worthy was NCAA tournament MVP in college?"


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Good point...even after Jordan.....we know that no one can do it alone. What he did was did "it" with less than anyone else had ever done "it" with.


eh? the bulls were a great defensive and rebounding TEAM. it wasn't all MJ, although he obviously played the biggest part.

hell.. kobe/shaq had a much worse supporting cast than what MJ and pippen had around them when they were winning championships left and right, that's for sure. that didn't stop them from 3-peating.

has MJ come the closest to "doing it alone"? interesting question. if you believe that kobe isn't better than pippen, then isn't shaq the one who's come closest to doing it alone, especially since the lakers had a terrible supporting cast? you could bring up kobe's clutchness as a huge reason the lakers 3-peated (which it is), and i'll point out pippen's clutch defense in the playoffs.

of course, if you're only referring to the time before MJ won his last ring, then the point is moot.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> eh? the bulls were a great defensive and rebounding TEAM. it wasn't all MJ, although he obviously played the biggest part.





> hell.. kobe/shaq had a much worse supporting cast than what MJ and pippen had around them when they were winning championships left and right, that's for sure. that didn't stop them from 3-peating.


LOL I said "MJ".....not "MJ and Pippen." Both Kobe and Shaq are better than Pippen.....so MJ had less around him than either Kobe or Shaq had. 



> has MJ come the closest to "doing it alone"? interesting question. if you believe that kobe isn't better than pippen, then isn't shaq the one who's come closest to doing it alone, especially since the lakers had a terrible supporting cast? you could bring up kobe's clutchness as a huge reason the lakers 3-peated (which it is), and i'll point out pippen's clutch defense in the playoffs.


Pippen at 25 is better than Kobe at 25....but at 23....not even close. Kobe runs away with it. Probably same at 27, but who knows.

You also have to control for competition. Yes maybe Shaq had less around him than MJ IF you believe that Pippen is better than Kobe.....but MJ beat better teams than Shaq. Name the 3 best single season teams Shaq beat in the playoffs. They won't come close to the 1991 Pistons, 1992 Blazers or 1993 Knicks....and there are plenty after that better than any team Shaq beat.



> of course, if you're only referring to the time before MJ won his last ring, then the point is moot.


No im referring to ever. But as the league gets more dilluted, and the teams get worse, winning with less will be less impressive, because you have to look at the whole picture.

The only players ever to truly win with less than MJ in one single season were Rick Barry, Dennis Johnson and Hakeem Olajuwon. All did it once in what was considered a down league every time.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>nbanoitall</b>!
> Lets say Shaq came into the league when Pippen did and played for the Bulls. He obvious IMO would not defer to jordan. Because he believes he is the most dominant player of all time.
> 
> Would their duo work out as well, worse or the same as Kobe and Shaq did?


Yeah, that duo was bound to win multiple championships...

Off course, in doing so, MJ wouldn´t be considered nowhere near the All-Time top 10 (being generous, here) ever...


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Re: Jordan to Shaq*



> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, that duo was bound to win multiple championships...
> ...


WTF....he's the greatest of all time no matter how much you hate him. Who's better?


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>nbanoitall</b>!
> 
> 
> Yea me too. This thread is just my sick way of justifying <b>why Kobe might have a chance to be the best player in the league. A lot of people dont think that is possible. I think it is possible and there is a chance that it happens. He is a big time player. </b> And he now gets his chance to prove it. Just like Jordan.
> ...


I agree with you. Kobe now has an excellent sidekick in Odom, who will defer to Kobe. He also has some bench players that know their roles and understand the game:

Walton
George
Brian Grant

I think they make the playoffs this year and depending on who else they get in the next 12 to 15 months will let us all know what the future will look like for Kobe and the Lakers. The Kobe/Odom duo seems like they were made for today's game.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree with you. Kobe now has an excellent sidekick in Odom, who will defer to Kobe. He also has some bench players that know their roles and understand the game:
> ...


You agree that Kobe could be considered the best ever one day?


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## QBF (Jul 22, 2002)

The original question was which duo would have been better, Shaq and Kobe or MJ and Shaq? Unless you cling to the nearly-dead notion that Kobe Bryant is even remotely as good a player as Michael Jordan was, the answer to this question is obvious: MJ and Shaq would have been better. If you had them both when they were 27 and if they both stayed healthy, they might have won 80 ball games in a single season. MJ is simply better than Kobe in every area of the game (except maybe three-point shooting, and that's really just a toss-up), and the best two players in the game are better than two of the best players in the game.

As for the other issue that has popped up in this thread, as to who would have deferred to whom, LB is correct: Shaq would have deferred to Jordan. Jordan is the greatest player in the history of the game, and I don't care who was on his team - Kobe, Shaq, Isaiah, Magic, Len Bias, Chamberlain, Russell, Jimmy Chitwood - they all would have been overshadowed by and deferred to Jordan.

The point that things might be different if Jordan joined Shaq's team misses the mark. Jordan's phenomenal 32-8-8 season came with a starting line-up that included Dave Corzine, Charles Oakley and Brad Sellers. If MJ had been on a team with Shaq, he would have led the league in assists while scoring 30 points a game. We would be talking about Jordan as the greatest point guard in the history of the game, and his legend would be every bit as big as it is today. 

Jordan could do anything he wanted on the basketball court and neither Shaq nor Kobe can.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree with you. Kobe now has an excellent sidekick in Odom, who will defer to Kobe. He also has some bench players that know their roles and understand the game:
> ...


i'm surpised people actually see this for what it is.

For everyone that asked. Odom and Butler start...basically because they are the best available players. Odom is the number 2 option. Thats how it has to be.

I think this is the best way to rationalize Kobe Bryant's future, and what kind of player he can become. Because lets face it IMO even Shaq and Jordan would have had their issues too. IMO it would have ended just as badly as it did for Kobe and Shaq.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>nbanoitall</b>!
> 
> 
> i'm surpised people actually see this for what it is.
> ...


So your rationalization is this highly speculative cloud that somehow Kobe is just like a young Jordan, only better!!


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## QBF (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> The Kobe/Odom duo seems like they were made for today's game.


At this point, I can't help but want to make a joke referring to these two players' criminal conduct. However, I know what you mean - Kobe and Odom's basketball skills seem to complement each other perfectly. 

If I am a Lakers fan, though, I worry that Mitch Kupchak is turning my team into the Trail-Blazers. Not only has perennial malcontent Gary Payton elected to stay, but good guys like Malone, Fischer and Shaq have all decided to leave. Instead of a big, aging, near-crippled Lithuanian center, the Lakers will be starting a big, aging, chain-smoking Yugoslavian center. With Brian Grant already in the fold, who's next? Damon Stoudamire? Ruben Patterson?

This offseason could be great for Los Angeles, or it could set the team back years. Kupchak has been awful to date, and, even when his offseason seems brilliant (like last summer's), he has failed miserably.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> So your rationalization is this highly speculative cloud that somehow Kobe is just like a young Jordan, only better!!


I started this thread. To point out that Kobe and Shaq's salary ate away at the team. They didnt have any role players. And Jordan never had a guy like Shaq on his team. He had Cartwright and Longley. 

I said Kobe could become the best player in the league. Does Jordan play in the league? Right now that is Kevin Garnett. KG has had talent around him. If he fails to get his team the finals next year. Everything changes.

Kobe came out of high school. If healthy he should start to play his best ball.


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> Jordan wasn't selfish. That's a label that Celtic and Laker fans put on him during the days of Magic and Bird to preserve the greatness of their favorite players in the face of a juggernaut never before seen. It was their only counter-argument.


No, I beg to differ.
Jordan was a ballhog, he was selfish. No doubt. He learnt how to get his teammates involved in the 90s, but in the 80s he was the most arrogant (maybe second to Bird) and selfish player in the League.



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> Jordan and Shaq would have worked great. They both could have averaged 30 PPG or more and there wouldn't even need to be talk of "who is the man" because both players would be happy.


Again, I disagree.
A 20 yr old Jordan would have been 2nd to a 27 yr old Shaq, if they were in the same team. Both would've won a couple of titles, but at some point of this run, Jordan would demand to be #1. And that's the moment when one of them has to go. Shaq never wants to be 2nd to anyone on his team, including Jordan. And MJ wouldn't want to be 2nd to an ageing Shaq, when he knows he actually the better player.
Shaq and Jordan would've worked for some years, but after a couple of years they would have to split their ways.


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## M0J0 (Apr 2, 2003)

According to LB26matrixns, Jordan cured cancer and brokered everlasting peace between the Israelis and Palestinians. Also, Mike's farts reportedly smell like roses.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>QBF</b>!
> 
> The point that things might be different if Jordan joined Shaq's team misses the mark. Jordan's phenomenal 32-8-8 season came with a starting line-up that included Dave Corzine, Charles Oakley and Brad Sellers. If MJ had been on a team with Shaq, he would have led the league in assists while scoring 30 points a game.


so, jordan's assists were 8 with poor teammates, so if he had great teammates, he would lead the league in assists. yet, with jordan, the better his team got, the lower his assist totals. the phenomenon happens all the time. it happens when shaq is out with kobe (kobe's assists go up when shaq is out). your scenario just seems unlikely.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>QBF</b>!
> As for the other issue that has popped up in this thread, as to who would have deferred to whom, LB is correct: Shaq would have deferred to Jordan. Jordan is the greatest player in the history of the game, and I don't care who was on his team - Kobe, Shaq, Isaiah, Magic, Len Bias, Chamberlain, Russell, Jimmy Chitwood - they all would have been overshadowed by and deferred to Jordan.


i just think it's a little naive to think that any dominant all-time great would gladly defer to a young jordan coming along and taking the lions share of the shots. that wilt or kareem or shaq would have just stepped aside. there would never be any issues because they'd all accept their 2nd class status to the great mj. overshadow me, mj, i'm not worthy!!!

the ego of the superstar should not be taken for granted. it's a powerful force.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> You agree that Kobe could be considered the best ever one day?


suspend belief for a second and suppose kobe wins mvp this season, averages 30+ ppg, and takes the lakers deep into the playoffs. would it then seem completely impossible for him to ever get mentioned with the all-time greats?


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

I still dont see the reason why so many Kobe fans think hes going to reveal some hidden talent that hes been unable to expose because Shaq was somehow blocking him from showcasing it.

People need to stop looking at Shaq and Kobe vs. Shaq and Jordan scenarios. Reduce it down to Kobe vs. Jordan, discuss their strengths and weaknesses and you'll see why Jordan was the far superior player. 

Maybe Jordan and Shaq _wouldnt_ have worked either and one of them would have been traded, but while they were together, they would have been better than the combination of Kobe/Shaq. Why? Because Jordan was better than Kobe in every aspect of basketball aside from three point shooting. 

It seems people make it more complicated than it has to be.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> suspend belief for a second and suppose kobe wins mvp this season, averages 30+ ppg, and takes the lakers deep into the playoffs. would it then seem completely impossible for him to ever get mentioned with the all-time greats?


That description basically describes Kevin Garnett this season, aside from the PPG, which he easily made up in other statistical categories. Garnett generally isnt regarded as a top 10 player.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> That description basically describes Kevin Garnett this season, aside from the PPG, which he easily made up in other statistical categories. Garnett generally isnt regarded as a top 10 player.


no, but he doesn't have 3 titles either. it gives kobe an edge overall, imo. the 3 titles plus proving he can dominate individually and help his team win would put him on a decent path. it couldn't end there of course.

hey, if garnett keeps winning mvp's, and wins a bunch of titles, he'll move up the ladder. i think he'll need to keep increasing his scoring to get greater recognition overall.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> I still dont see the reason why so many Kobe fans think hes going to reveal some hidden talent that hes been unable to expose because Shaq was somehow blocking him from showcasing it.


with a complete green light, he averaged 40 ppg over a 16 game period, while his team went 13-3.

that's not a hidden talent.

it remains to be seen if he can ever come close to reproducing production like that again, but he's certainly done things that haven't been done often.


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## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

I guess I'm one of the few who thinks the egos would of gotten too big and they would of clashed with each other


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> with a complete green light, he averaged 40 ppg over a 16 game period, while his team went 13-3.
> ...


With Shaq playing?


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> I still dont see the reason why so many Kobe fans think hes going to reveal some hidden talent that hes been unable to expose because Shaq was somehow blocking him from showcasing it.


how do you know he wasn't? do you think MJ would have been MJ as we know it if you put him in kobe's place? strongly doubtful. kobe could become a much better player without shaq. he could also regress. we'll just have to wait and see.



> People need to stop looking at Shaq and Kobe vs. Shaq and Jordan scenarios. Reduce it down to Kobe vs. Jordan, discuss their strengths and weaknesses and you'll see why Jordan was the far superior player.


last i checked, kobe's career was far from over. if you're comparing them at the same age and you make the claim that jordan was *far* superior, that's just a silly statement. and if you're comparing MJ's entire career to kobe's thus far, that's also silly.



> Maybe Jordan and Shaq _wouldnt_ have worked either and one of them would have been traded, but while they were together, they would have been better than the combination of Kobe/Shaq. Why? Because Jordan was better than Kobe in every aspect of basketball aside from three point shooting.


the question wasn't if they would BE better, but if they would work better together. that doesn't have as much to do with talent as it does chemistry. MJ wasn't exactly what you would call a teamplayer in the 80's, either.

i'm just wondering what kobe haters (not calling you one john) will do if kobe averages something like 30 7 and 7 in the regular season and takes the lakers into the playoffs. what excuses will you come up with then? i can see it already, it will be your typical kobe double-standards:

#1 kobe didn't take his team to the finals, he sucks.
#2 the lakers got knocked out of the first round, and even though kobe averaged 35 8 and 8 in that series, he still isn't anywhere close to Our Lord and Savior Michael "His Airness" Jordan.
#3 who cares? kobe is a rapist.
#4 kobe is just lucky. he'll choke next year.
#5 laker bias, damn those LA-loving refs.
#6 he shoots too much, i hate that selfish cocky *******.
#7 why isn't he in jail?
#8 it was all odom.
#9 i don't care if kobe held t-mac to 20 ppg on 35% shooting in the first round, his defense is so overrated.
#10 who cares? t-mac is still better.
#11 kobe looks like an eagle.
#12 kobe averaged 30 7 and 7 and took his team to the playoffs? wait... didn't he cheat on his wife?
#13 rapistrapistrapistrapistrapistrapistrapistrapistrapistrapist.
#14 who cares? he ran shaq and phil out of LA.
#15 kobe is creepy.
#16 i hate how he tries to be MJ.
#17 the lakers lost to the hawks in the regular season.
#18 the lakers lost to the kings in the regular season.
#19 the kings finished with a better record and went further in the playoffs.
#20 **** kobe.

i dunno. maybe you guys will surprise me and come up with something original. or, better yet, maybe you'll actually give kobe his due props. that would certainly be a treat, although a very unlikely one.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> with a complete green light, he averaged 40 ppg over a 16 game period, while his team went 13-3.
> ...


Not to challenge you, but if I have the time, Kobe 's 40 points over 16 period were coming a lot from shooting jumpers.

Jordan could have scored 50 for a seson if he didnt have the same leaping ability but with same quickness and explosiveness.

If Jordan didnt jump as high as he was but with the same explosiveness and quickness in the year he scored 37 a game, he could have scored 45-50 a game.

Guys need to understand how their fav players score before just putting stats up. I am sorry, I might someday just leave this message board, I am too senior to talk with the rookies here!


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> with a complete green light, he averaged 40 ppg over a 16 game period, while his team went 13-3.
> 
> that's not a hidden talent.
> ...


I'm not talking about stats, I'm talking about ability. Tony Delk has scored 50 points in a game before, that doesnt mean he has the potential to be a 30 point scorer. . 

Ability is ability, and I think Kobe is pretty polished at this point. Shaq held him back in certain ways, but also helped him a lot in other ways. I think it'll all even out without Shaq, and he'll be pretty much the same calibur player next season.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not talking about stats, I'm talking about ability. Tony Delk has scored 50 points in a game before, that doesnt mean he has the potential to be a 30 point scorer. .
> ...


you guys pick the best 5 knowledged posters here toegther and challenge me, I can bet no one can still beat me.

The only way a poster can win against me is to agree with me and with more thoughts that I never think of.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

PLEASE THE GUY SHOWUP IF YOU ARE THE 100TH PERSON TO VOTE FOR MY RATING, I RESPECT THAT POSTER. PLEASE SHOW UP!


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not talking about stats, I'm talking about ability. Tony Delk has scored 50 points in a game before, that doesnt mean he has the potential to be a 30 point scorer. .
> ...


i presented a 16 game stretch, and you counter with a single game example? 16 games shows some ability, not a fluke.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> how do you know he wasn't? do you think MJ would have been MJ as we know it if you put him in kobe's place? strongly doubtful. kobe could become a much better player without shaq. he could also regress. we'll just have to wait and see.


I've seen enough of Kobe with and without Shaq to know hes not drastically better or worse without Shaq. Hes about the same calibur player. I suspect it would be the same thing with Jordan, and judging by what I've seen from both Jordan and Kobes abilities, Jordan is the much better player. 



> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> last i checked, kobe's career was far from over. if you're comparing them at the same age and you make the claim that jordan was *far* superior, that's just a silly statement. and if you're comparing MJ's entire career to kobe's thus far, that's also silly.


Jordan won an MVP at age 25 over Bird and Magic who were both in their primes. Jordan averaged 37 points one season, and 33 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists on 50% from the field in another season. Both at the same age as Kobe or earlier. This just supports my opinion that Jordan was the far superior basketball player, even at the same age. 



> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> the question wasn't if they would BE better, but if they would work better together. that doesn't have as much to do with talent as it does chemistry. MJ wasn't exactly what you would call a teamplayer in the 80's, either.


My opinion is that Jordan was the far superior basketball player to Kobe, less selfish (although not completely unselfish), and could do everything that Kobe did at a much higher level. (aside from the three point shooting)



> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> i'm just wondering what kobe haters (not calling you one john) will do if kobe averages something like 30 7 and 7 in the regular season and takes the lakers into the playoffs. what excuses will you come up with then? i can see it already, it will be your typical kobe double-standards:


Its easy to make statements like that. What will the McGrady haters say when he averages 35 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists and leads the Rockets to a title? Its a silly question since it hasnt happened, but my guess is that the people who truly hate McGrady will make excuses, and those who just misjudged him as a player will give him his props. Same goes with Kobe. 

I dont judge players on stats though, I judge their ability on the court. Stats should be used as a tool to support your opinion, it shouldnt be used to form your opinion.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> Not to challenge you, but if I have the time, Kobe 's 40 points over 16 period were coming a lot from shooting jumpers.
> ...


c'mon john, how long do we go back and you're calling me a rookie!

40 points coming on jumpers doesn't mean he didn't score 40 points. in any event, he got to the line 12.5 times a game as well. it was 40 pts on under 30 fga's / g.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Ability is ability, and I think Kobe is pretty polished at this point. Shaq held him back in certain ways, but also helped him a lot in other ways. I think it'll all even out without Shaq, and he'll be pretty much the same calibur player next season.


but you asked what we've seen that would give any indication that he could provide more. i think feb '03 gave a little indication. disagree?


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> c'mon john, how long do we go back and you're calling me a rookie!
> ...


My true apology for saying Rookie here.

You are respected for a NBA fan. I meant I dont expect you to have the NBA coaching staff, the Jerry West game knowledge.


I am talking about other kids here.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> but you asked what we've seen that would give any indication that he could provide more. i think feb '03 gave a little indication. disagree?


I was talking about ability, not stats. His game is pretty polished, theres not much room for improvement. I dont consider hot streaks to be potential. McGrady also had a 10 game stretch where he averaged 38 points. They were just feeling it during that time, it wasnt like they were doing anything different. They were just hitting more of their shots. They werent doing anything different to make the shots easier, or anything of that sort.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> with a complete green light, he averaged 40 ppg over a 16 game period, while his team went 13-3.


he's got the green light this year. thats for sure. with a faster younger team. Minus Vlade...haha...but seriously vlade is a great passer out of the post. They might trade payton. maybe but other than that this team is set. And I'm ready to see Bryant show us what he's got.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> I was talking about ability, not stats. His game is pretty polished, theres not much room for improvement. I dont consider hot streaks to be potential. McGrady also had a 10 game stretch where he averaged 38 points. They were just feeling it during that time, it wasnt like they were doing anything different. They were just hitting more of their shots. They werent doing anything different to make the shots easier, or anything of that sort.



i disagree - he certainly was doing things differently. it wasn't just a case of him getting cold and that's why the streak ended. it was a conscious decision to involve shaq more, and for kobe to attack less. phil asked him to reign it in, thinking getting shaq more involved would help them come playoff time.

this was 16 games of winning basketball with kobe dominating offensively. it shows ability. the stats and the record support that ability.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Kobe's was starting to get cold near the end of that streak. I remember him shooting very poorly in games 8 and 9. Sometimes even going out of the team concept and forcing shots to get 40. PJ said something abt the streak becoming a distraction. And Shaq was starting to roll anyway by that time. He won POTM honors in March while Kobe, although struggling a lil' with his shooting, was doing the other things. Shaq was back to being the focal point, and lets face it, that's how LA won their titles - Shaq being the #1 offensive option.

Kobe's streak was a mixture of him being 1) obviously a great player 2) being incredibly hot, some of the shots he was making were ridiculous 3) PJ recognizing how hot he was and opening up the offense to make it even more easier for him.


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Jordan won an MVP at age 25 over Bird and Magic who were both in their primes.


Yeah, that was one of the bad decisions in MVP award history. At that time Magic Johnson was clearly the best player in the League, he won the award in '87, '89 and '90. He finish 2nd in 1988 to Jordan. Kinda like 2001, when Iverson won the MVP-trophy while Shaq was clearly the League's main man.

Anyway, MJ got robbed a couple of years, too, like in 1997 when Malone won the MVP.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bender</b>!
> 
> Yeah, that was one of the bad decisions in MVP award history. At that time Magic Johnson was clearly the best player in the League, he won the award in '87, '89 and '90. He finish 2nd in 1988 to Jordan. Kinda like 2001, when Iverson won the MVP-trophy while Shaq was clearly the League's main man.
> 
> Anyway, MJ got robbed a couple of years, too, like in 1997 when Malone won the MVP.


actually, bird came in 2nd in '88. i don't think magic was clearly the best at that time. between those 3, it's hard to say any was clearly the best ('88 was bird's last awesome year, unfortunately).


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>bender</b>!
> 
> No, I beg to differ.
> Jordan was a ballhog, he was selfish. No doubt. He learnt how to get his teammates involved in the 90s, but in the 80s he was the most arrogant (maybe second to Bird) and selfish player in the League.


This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You think he was selfish because it helps you rationalize Jordan into your Laker-centric world. Jordan was REAL selfish in 1981 when he practically played the point for the NCAA Champion Tarheels. He was the glue of that team. So I'm glad you beg to differ, but you're a misguided Laker fan, so what's new.




> Again, I disagree.
> A 20 yr old Jordan would have been 2nd to a 27 yr old Shaq, if they were in the same team. Both would've won a couple of titles, but at some point of this run, Jordan would demand to be #1. And that's the moment when one of them has to go. Shaq never wants to be 2nd to anyone on his team, including Jordan. And MJ wouldn't want to be 2nd to an ageing Shaq, when he knows he actually the better player.
> Shaq and Jordan would've worked for some years, but after a couple of years they would have to split their ways.


You say this based on what? First of all.....unlike Kobe.....Jordan was BETTER than Shaq. Secondly....how do you know that Jordan would have reacted as selfishly as Kobe. Would Jordan tell Karl and Gary he'd squash it only to run to Jim Grey and call Shaq fat that night?


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>M0J0</b>!
> According to LB26matrixns, Jordan cured cancer and brokered everlasting peace between the Israelis and Palestinians. Also, Mike's farts reportedly smell like roses.


Nice argument......way to say anything about hoops whatsoever.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> so, jordan's assists were 8 with poor teammates, so if he had great teammates, he would lead the league in assists. yet, with jordan, the better his team got, the lower his assist totals. the phenomenon happens all the time. it happens when shaq is out with kobe (kobe's assists go up when shaq is out). your scenario just seems unlikely.


Not really......Jordan just switched positions. He played PG primarily in 1989, and in 1990 he turned the offensive PG duties over to Pippen.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> i just think it's a little naive to think that any dominant all-time great would gladly defer to a young jordan coming along and taking the lions share of the shots. that wilt or kareem or shaq would have just stepped aside. there would never be any issues because they'd all accept their 2nd class status to the great mj. overshadow me, mj, i'm not worthy!!!
> ...


You miss a GLARING inconsistency in your logic. Jordan shot a MUCH higher percentage than Kobe. Therefore if he took Bryant's shots at 53.5% instead of 44.5% he'd have averaged 28 PPG this year and not 24.....give him two more shots and that's thirty. And Shaq still gets more than enough to keep himself happy.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> no, but he doesn't have 3 titles either. it gives kobe an edge overall, imo. the 3 titles plus proving he can dominate individually and help his team win would put him on a decent path. it couldn't end there of course.
> ...


LOL Kobe has never been the best player on a title team....neither has Garnett. Put Garnett with Shaq and I'm sure he could be the second best player on a title team like Kobe. 

Kobe won't win MVP this season.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> with a complete green light, he averaged 40 ppg over a 16 game period, while his team went 13-3.
> ...


LOL you think Jordan never did that over a 16 game span. He AVERAGED 37.1 PPG at age 24.....so you know he had more than 16 games where he averaged 40....

And I know you're thinking "who mentioned Jordan?" Please. You'd love for him to have span like that again so YOU could mention him.

Oh......Jordan did it on a much higher FG% than Kobe too.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>sboydell</b>!
> I guess I'm one of the few who thinks the egos would of gotten too big and they would of clashed with each other


Not really.....Jordan, despite myths created by Laker fans and Celtic fans.....could get his teammates involved much better than Kobe. Yeah you didn't see it from 1984-1988, but you saw it at North Carolina and as soon as Pippen and Grant got there you saw it again. Jordan didn't have anyone he trusted for those four years. He truly was better against a double team than Dave Corzine or Ennis Whatley were wide open.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See Laker fans......ding ding ding. I'm not the only one who brings it up. Spriggan is trying to push the envelope:

Comparison of Jordan and Kobe from 21-25:

Jordan:
1 MVP
1 DPOY
Leads Kobe in PPG, RPG, APG, SPG, BPG, FG%, FT%

Kobe
0 MVP
0 DPOY
Leads Jordan in Three point FG%


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> but you asked what we've seen that would give any indication that he could provide more. i think feb '03 gave a little indication. disagree?


He also had a 12 game stretch without Shaq where he average 29 PPG on 44% FG and the Lakers went 3-12 playing some of the worst competition they'd face all year...


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> LOL you think Jordan never did that over a 16 game span. He AVERAGED 37.1 PPG at age 24.....so you know he had more than 16 games where he averaged 40....
> ...


you're right - i didn't mention jordan. the discussion was on kobe's upside potential. jordan doesn't really factor in here. sorry - not about jordan.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> you're right - i didn't mention jordan. the discussion was on kobe's upside potential. jordan doesn't really factor in here. sorry - not about jordan.


Wow you must have missed the title of the thread that was put up by a Kobe fan.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> He also had a 12 game stretch without Shaq where he average 29 PPG on 44% FG and the Lakers went 3-12 playing some of the worst competition they'd face all year...


and getting killed miserably on the boards while kobe averaged about 9 rpg from the 2 spot.

here i'll mention your buddy jordan and just say it's not a situation he really ever dealt with.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> and getting killed miserably on the boards while kobe averaged about 9 rpg from the 2 spot.
> ...


ROFL are you serious????

OMG!!

Jordan at one time started with Dave Corzine, Charles Oakley (rookie), Orlando Woolridge and Ennis Whatley.....

Jordan put up MVP efforts while the rest of his team was getting killed in every aspect. AND they were slightly below .500, not .250.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Wow you must have missed the title of the thread that was put up by a Kobe fan.


the post you were responding to, and the previous posts associated with that discussion, had nothing to do with jordan. you were responding to me, specifically, and threw jordan into the middle, when again, he had nothing to do with it. you yourself even said it wasn't about jordan, but theorized that there was a jordan motivation somewhere. there wasn't. sorry to disappoint.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> ROFL are you serious????
> ...


sorry, but those teams were + in the rebounding department, not largely -.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> See Laker fans......ding ding ding. I'm not the only one who brings it up. Spriggan is trying to push the envelope:
> ...


spriggan didn't bring it up - he was disputing the notion that jordan was *far superior* at the same age. your comparison does nothing to prove jordan was far superior. kobe played on much better teams, so it's natural that his stats might be lower (jordan's numbers decreased as his teams got better). kareem accomplished more at 25 than jordan did (3 mvp's, a title), but would you concede that he was far superior to jordan? spiggan didn't say kobe was the better player. the dispute was how much better jordan was at a similar stage.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> the post you were responding to, and the previous posts associated with that discussion, had nothing to do with jordan. you were responding to me, specifically, and threw jordan into the middle, when again, he had nothing to do with it. you yourself even said it wasn't about jordan, but theorized that there was a jordan motivation somewhere. there wasn't. sorry to disappoint.


I don't have to justify bringing Jordan up. You Laker fans want nobody to talk about Jordan when Kobe is mentioned now. Ironic don't you think? When all Laker fans wanted to talk about in 2000 was "who is better at age 21?" Well now you will hear about Jordan until your ears bleed....and if you ***** about it......too bad, suck it up, because it isn't stopping.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> sorry, but those teams were + in the rebounding department, not largely -.


And they were awful just about everywhere else. For every rebound Oakley got he took 3 stupid shots. I didn't know the teams had to be bad in exactly the same areas.....I thought bad was enough.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> spriggan didn't bring it up - he was disputing the notion that jordan was *far superior* at the same age. your comparison does nothing to prove jordan was far superior. kobe played on much better teams, so it's natural that his stats might be lower (jordan's numbers decreased as his teams got better). kareem accomplished more at 25 than jordan did (3 mvp's, a title), but would you concede that he was far superior to jordan? spiggan didn't say kobe was the better player. the dispute was how much better jordan was at a similar stage.


LOL Kareem won 1 more MVP than Jordan and zero titles above and beyond jordan's six. Get your facts straight.

Wow....so playing with better players makes your assists go down?

Playing with a dominant center behind you on defense makes your steals go down and your blocks go down? Really?

Playing with Shaq made Kobe shoot 10% lower FGs?

It wasn't just statistical advantages it was ridiculous margins as well.

Look at them at the same age:

Jordan 35 PPG, Kobe 24 PPG
Jordan 3.16 SPG, Kobe 1.6 SPG
Jordan 1.6 BPG, Kobe 0.4 BPG
Jordan 53.5% FG, Kobe 44.5% FG

Three of those four stats should be HELPED by playing with better players.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> LOL Kareem won 1 more MVP than Jordan and zero titles above and beyond jordan's six. Get your facts straight.


lol - we're talking about at age 25. lol.

and kobe's stats this year were down significantly for a variety of reasons. 

and again, almost all of jordan's numbers went down as his teams got better.


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## hotel312 (Jul 13, 2004)

*Shaq and Jordan*

UNSTOPPABLE! Jordan was a team player, and unlike Iverson all of his shot attempts didn't hurt his team(career 50% shooter). Just like Riley says great players want to be coached! Kobe didn't want to be coached this year. Jordan avg as many assists as Kobe with noone to pass the ball to in his early days. Jordan would be smart enough to pass it to Shaq because when the ball got kicked out he would have a better look. That is what Kobe will see now. Jordan was also a much better defender than Kobe, remember he was a def player of the year, and avg more blocks and steals than Kobe!!


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't have to justify bringing Jordan up. You Laker fans want nobody to talk about Jordan when Kobe is mentioned now. Ironic don't you think? When all Laker fans wanted to talk about in 2000 was "who is better at age 21?" Well now you will hear about Jordan until your ears bleed....and if you ***** about it......too bad, suck it up, because it isn't stopping.


you're arguing with ghosts. your laker fan friends beat you down when you were a kid and now you see them everywhere you look. you've got a norman bates thing going on here. your hometown laker fans did to you what "mother" did to norman. and now you won't stop until you kill them all.

well, it makes you seem a bit psycho.

it's a shame because you know some hoops.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> lol - we're talking about at age 25. lol.
> ...


No...the initial claim was Jordan from 21-25 v. Kobe at those ages. Even at those ages averaged together Jordan has huge advantages in PPG, SPG, BPG, FG%


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: Shaq and Jordan*



> Originally posted by <b>hotel312</b>!
> Jordan avg as many assists as Kobe with noone to pass the ball to in his early days.


andre miller lead the league in assists on a crappy team. bibby's assists went way down when he went to a good team. getting assists without a good team isn't this marvel some seem to think it is.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> you're arguing with ghosts. your laker fan friends beat you down when you were a kid and now you see them everywhere you look. you've got a norman bates thing going on here. your hometown laker fans did to you what "mother" did to norman. and now you won't stop until you kill them all.
> ...


This post is suspension worthy.....

Seems Laker fans can bring up anything under the sun.....but the minute its a losing argument they'll go to any lengths, even calling you psycho, to keep from having it rubbed in their faces


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> No...the initial claim was Jordan from 21-25 v. Kobe at those ages. Even at those ages averaged together Jordan has huge advantages in PPG, SPG, BPG, FG%


my point was that kareem accomplished much more at those ages than jordan, yet you wouldn't concede he was much better than jordan at that point, would you?

ppg again is largely influenced by the team they played on. fg% is influenced by the era they played in (although jordan still has a relative advantage). jordan was a better defender and got more steals and blocks.

was jordan better - yes. was he far superior - that's debatable.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Re: Shaq and Jordan*



> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> andre miller lead the league in assists on a crappy team. bibby's assists went way down when he went to a good team. getting assists without a good team isn't this marvel some seem to think it is.


Ok and Magic's assists were really high on a good team. On the Bulls either Pippen or Jordan's assists were always really high....


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> my point was that kareem accomplished much more at those ages than jordan, yet you wouldn't concede he was much better than jordan at that point, would you?
> ...


Debatable to you....

During those ages MJ averaged a higher PPG, SPG, APG and FT% than Kareem.....he wins 4-3. 

And I love this FG% thing. No it wasn't....players in Jordan's day were better offensive players. They could hit midrange jumpers and break very good defenses. The defenses weren't worse...the offenses were better.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> This post is suspension worthy.....
> ...


it's not a losing argument - i'm questioning your quest to shove jordan down peoples throats nonstop, even when it's not appropriate or necessary. it's your stated objective, and i don't think it's a good thing. you're seeking revenge for what people, not people here, but people, said to you 4 years ago. you bring a fight wherever you go, and not just intelligent discussion, which you are capable of. but hey, however you want to approach it here - i'm not going anywhere (unless of course i'm suspended). but i don't want to take anymore thread space with this. i just saw a parallel and thought it a bit humorous. no offense.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Debatable to you....
> ...


kareem won 3 mvps to jordan's 1, 1 title to jordan's none. he kills him in rebs, blocks and fg% and overall scoring efficiency. his teams won many, many more games. you think this adds up to jordan "winning"?


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

Michael Jordan is and always will be the greatest Guard in the NBA. Only player that has shown me so far to have the potential to get to Jordans Level of play is Lebron James.

Kobe Bryant isnt half the Defender Jordan was. Kobe Bryant takes some of the worst shots imaginable (GAME 4 In The NBA Finals ANYONE ?).

One of the biggest Advantages MJ has over Kobe Bryant is Size , Hands, and athletic Ability that still has not been duplicated by any guard in the NBA. MJ was the most dominat Guard in the NBA. Magic Johnson himself said that MJ was the best in Game Dunker he ever saw. 

Also Jordan turned around the Bulls Franchise. There is a reason the Bulls were able to pick MJ in the Lottery after all.

MJ makes players around him better. Something Kobe Bryant has yet to do in his tenure in the NBA. Also when Shaq came in to the league there is no question Jordan would of been the leader. But in time Shaq could of taken over that role and I'm sure MJ would have been extremely proud of his legacy and be happy to go on winning more championships with Shaq late in to his career.

Kobe on the other hand ? oh hell no. He ran shaq and phil out of town for his own selfish reasons. And Everyone Knows it. So now Kobe got what he wanted. Lets really see how great Kobe is with out the Big Diesel in the paint.

Oh yeah Jordan Never Lost in the Finals like Kobe did. Just Watch Game 4 everyone of 2004 Finals to see what I mean about Kobe. A night Shaq should of finished off the Pistons. But Kobe to busy well being Kobe ( BRICK HOUSE ) .


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## ufm19 (Jun 7, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Sorry was supposed to say 1988...Pippen's rookie year
> ...


MJ is by far better than any Laker ever? I thought you said the competition between Wilt and he was close in the "Best Ever" topic. Once again you continue to only treat MJ like god. Of course Isiah should've made the Dream Team but then Michael said "i am not wasting my summer if Isiah is on the team with me". Isiah was one of the few stars to have the balls to actually say what he felt. Also, no one- not even Shaq- has been helped as much by the refs as MJ. Case point: 1998 Game 6, one nof the most famous shots in history. Everyone praises his last shot. What about the blatant push off that came before? Any other player who tries that gets called. During 1995-1998 I saw him get away with dozens of these little pushoffs or three steps on a drive. He also had a habit of pushing off the defender with his forearm when he went for his signature fadeaway. He never would've led the league in scoring '96-'98 without help from the refs. The refs would also never let him get into foul trouble; in the 1997 Bulls game against some Western team (it was either the Nuggets or the Mavericks, I can't remember) I watched him, with two fouls in the early third quarter, I saw him hit the shooter in the face with his palm and get away with it. In his last couple years he could've never sustained his dominance and without that he probably wouldn't be considered the greatest of alltime.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Wow you must have missed the title of the thread that was put up by a Kobe fan.


carmelo fan and boykins of course

I just enjoy Kobe a lot more now that the rest of you dont like him.

When i posted this I thought everyone would vote that Jordan and Shaq would have worked perfectly and been the best duo of all time. Of course there would have been drama...and some serious issues here. Shaq coming along when Pippen did after Jordan was "the guy" Thats what the thread was about. My point was that things would go somewhat similar to what happened with Kobe and Shaq. Thats all. All I am saying is now Kobe gets his chance. We will see what he does with it.

Hopefully Denver will knock them out of the playoffs. :grinning:


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## ufm19 (Jun 7, 2004)

lb you are just another cloned typical NBA fan who worships MJ. Once again you never listen to anything anyone says and just constantly spew the hype from the NBA. You keep saying that no one touches him, yet everyone is proving you wrong. Kareem had a very old Oscar Robertson who averaged 14 points per game in the early '70s yet still on the title and MVP a bunch of years. MJ never won ANYTHING until Pippen became an all-time great and Horace became an Allstar. The whole Bulls taems were great, not just one player. Name one other player besides Kareem and Oscar on those early 1970s Bucks teams without looking it up. See? He also won 3 MVPs and a title before MJ ever won a title and won one MVP. He was a much better rebounder, efficiency scorer, field goal shooter, blocker, and of course won a lot more in his first few years and had just as many titles and more MVPs over the course of his career he was one of the Top 5 players in the league at 38 despite not being the star of the team while MJ is just a good player in his final two years and he often chose to save his energy when his team needed it in the late season before the playoffs; if he would've demanded the ball and shot repeatedly down the stretch like MJ always did he probably would've been in Jordan's neighborhood in terms of points. Also Kareem had a better rookie season where he was robbed of the MVP. All that and I still think Kareem is maybe the fifth best player ever. I am just showing you that there are a few players who can compare to MJ. MJ isn't far and away the best basketball player ever, like you keep saying he is. He was better than Magic and Bird, I'll give you that and btw I am not a "Laker fan" I hate the Lakers. What I mean is if MJ cooled it and played within the offense of that 1993 Knicks game 4 they would've kept their 20 point lead and he would've had around 40 points instead of the 54. When he was having a good day he always used to keep shooting, trying to boost his scoring total.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

personally I dont think the bulls were short of talent at all

Ron Harper Kukoc Rodman Pippen 

past guys like Grant
he was a good guy to have around.

Malone was hurt. GP is well...GP

and you have Shaq and Kobe
who cant play nice
oh wonder you lose the finals

The Pistons are a great team...and they werent messin around...no drama with them...just action.

Get that **** out of here. Swat


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## ufm19 (Jun 7, 2004)

by the way as to who averaged more than 5 assists per game at SG... can you say Clyde Drexler? I'm sure I could dig up a bunch more with more than 5.3 but the point is that's not a great total at all for a guard.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Jordan to Shaq*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> WTF....he's the greatest of all time no matter how much you hate him. Who's better?


:laugh: 

If you think that Michael Jordan would put up the same kind of stats playing alongside Shaq, i think you´re delusional.

I believe the question was about Shaq entering the league (and to the Bulls) instead of Pippen.

Do you really think that ANY NBA coach wouldn´t take O´Neal as the primary offensive weapon? A 7ft monster who would put up 25+ppg in .550+FG% ????????????????????

Would any coach allow Jordan to constantly dribble for 10 seconds while atempting one-on-ones instead of instantly yelling "pass it to Shaq"? 

Point is: IMHO, Shaq would be the center of the Bulls team. (and i could quote Jackson on that). Therefore, Jordan´s numbers would come down. And his MVPs. Just that.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> kareem won 3 mvps to jordan's 1, 1 title to jordan's none. he kills him in rebs, blocks and fg% and overall scoring efficiency. his teams won many, many more games. you think this adds up to jordan "winning"?


Scoring efficiency is not a major statistical category...of which the NBA has seven......PPG, RPG, APG, SPG, BPG, FG%, FT%....plus please show me the numbers.....prove the efficiency was better.

Kareem had Oscar......Jordan didn't.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ufm19</b>!
> 
> 
> MJ is by far better than any Laker ever? I thought you said the competition between Wilt and he was close in the "Best Ever" topic. Once again you continue to only treat MJ like god. Of course Isiah should've made the Dream Team but then Michael said "i am not wasting my summer if Isiah is on the team with me". Isiah was one of the few stars to have the balls to actually say what he felt. Also, no one- not even Shaq- has been helped as much by the refs as MJ. Case point: 1998 Game 6, one nof the most famous shots in history. Everyone praises his last shot. What about the blatant push off that came before? Any other player who tries that gets called. During 1995-1998 I saw him get away with dozens of these little pushoffs or three steps on a drive. He also had a habit of pushing off the defender with his forearm when he went for his signature fadeaway. He never would've led the league in scoring '96-'98 without help from the refs. The refs would also never let him get into foul trouble; in the 1997 Bulls game against some Western team (it was either the Nuggets or the Mavericks, I can't remember) I watched him, with two fouls in the early third quarter, I saw him hit the shooter in the face with his palm and get away with it. In his last couple years he could've never sustained his dominance and without that he probably wouldn't be considered the greatest of alltime.


This is all your opinion. Conspiracy theories make you, and anyone else who buys into them look like a joke.

If you can be thrown to the floor by a right pushoff with the shooter moving left and you didn't flop.....you must not be strong enough to play in the NBA.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Jordan to Shaq*



> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> ...


I think you fall victim to what many NBA fans do....you saw Jordan in 1996-98 and you thought that that was the best scoring he brought to the table....when he was a shell of his former self in that regard.

Paulo we've been over this. Your arguments boil down to your opinion.....you think Jordan is like the 17th best player ever.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jordan to Shaq*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> I think you fall victim to what many NBA fans do....you saw Jordan in 1996-98 and you thought that that was the best scoring he brought to the table....when he was a shell of his former self in that regard.


Wrong. 
I´ve seen Jordan play ever since the 87-88 season.



> Paulo we've been over this. Your arguments boil down to your opinion.....you think Jordan is like the 17th best player ever.


Wrong again.
I list MJ as the third best player ever.
But that´s irrelevant to the thread topic.
If Jordan played alongside Shaq for most of his career, then Jordan (IMHO) would hardly be top-10 All-time.

It´s not "only my opinion" when none other then Jackson states that Shaq would be the main gun.
Off course, i believe any basketball coach would tell you the same: when you have a monster in the paint, feed him.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Jordan to Shaq*



> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Wrong.
> ...


What Phil Jackson said in LA has no validity. Was he coaching MJ in LA? No...he was coaching Shaq. Did he have anything to gain by keeping MJ happy when he was coaching in LA? No. Did he have something to gain by keeping Shaq happy when he was in LA? Yes.


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## hotel312 (Jul 13, 2004)

*HYPE*

Kobe is the most hyped player in league history!!!! Jordan has 6 NBA Finals MVP's, Kobe will finish his career with ZERO. Jordan also always showed up, he didn't have terrible series. This in't hype, its facts, look at the numbers! Listen to what Magic and Bird and Jerry West say! I think they know a bit more than any of us. Jordan was hyped like crazy, but unlike Kobe he not only lived up to it he exceeded it!! That is the difference, the NBA spends too much time trying to create stars. And the guy that said players were better offensively is right on the money!! Thats why the majority of pure shooter are Euro now, they aren't obsessed with being on Sportscenter. The only thing that Kobe has in common with Jordan is that he can run and jump period! He even cheated on his wife like Jordan and messed that up to! Penny was gonna be the next Jordan, then Grant Hill, then Kobe, Lebron is the only guy in todays game that has a prayer to be close in my opinion. Until Kobe stops choking in NBA Finals series he is not on James Worthy's level to me. He has a Finals MVP and was a team player. Jordan regularly avg more Assists than Kobe in the early days with noone to throw it to. More steals, blocks, its not close. How many times do we see Kobe getting torched?? Some of you guys either don't know the game or you're living in a dream world. What did Pat Riley say, "great players want to be coached, and want to be team players". That says it all, Kobe has a ton to prove.........................Next.


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## hotel312 (Jul 13, 2004)

*LB26 matrixns*

Hey LB, I'm a Laker fan and I know that Kobe couldn't wipe MJ's ***!! I'm embarrased by these "fans", Kobe just had a 3rd horrible shhoting NBA Finals and they want to talk about potential!! Kobe has not been a team player the last 2 years in the playoffs(7-8 more shots than Shaq per game)! The fact is that Jordan led his team to 6 NBA FINALS victories and Kobe has led the Lakers to nothing. He is nothing but an overgrown Iverson, but Iverson was good enough to take his team to the Finals with less talent than Kobe has. If Iverson played with Shaq he wouldn't be so selfish to launch up that many more shots than Shaq!!! If you have aguy shooting 63% in the Finals you give him the ball until they stop him. They don't respon when I ask how Fisg=her outrebounded Kobe in this year's Finals while playing less than half the minutes. Jordan was complete, the best offensive and defensive player in the game, Kobe will not be either at any point. The difference between myself and these other Laker fans is that I have the knowledge and don't lie to myself about the situation. Its been a pleasure.............


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## QBF (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> i just think it's a little naive to think that any dominant all-time great would gladly defer to a young jordan coming along and taking the lions share of the shots. that wilt or kareem or shaq would have just stepped aside. there would never be any issues because they'd all accept their 2nd class status to the great mj. overshadow me, mj, i'm not worthy!!!
> ...


Let me put it this way:

Kobe Bryant very nearly ecclipsed Shaq as the dominant personality and player on this Lakers team over the past 5 seasons. He even convinced Kupchak to ditch Shaq and build the Lakers around him. If Kobe was able to do this, and Kobe is not and has never been the player MJ was, I have no doubt that Jordan would have absolutely been the dominant force on his team.


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## QBF (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> so, jordan's assists were 8 with poor teammates, so if he had great teammates, he would lead the league in assists. yet, with jordan, the better his team got, the lower his assist totals. the phenomenon happens all the time. it happens when shaq is out with kobe (kobe's assists go up when shaq is out). your scenario just seems unlikely.


It all has to do with a player's role on the team. If, as many seem to believe, Shaq would have been the dominant scoring force on a team with Michael Jordan, Jordan could have altered his game into more of a point guard's role, something Bryant was absolutely unwilling to do. Jordan's assist numbers with the Bulls didn't change dramatically as his team improved because his role never changed - he was always the dominant scorer. If he played in an offense designed around feeding Shaq the ball down low, he would done so and been the absolute best at it.


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## QBF (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> the question wasn't if they would BE better, but if they would work better together. that doesn't have as much to do with talent as it does chemistry. MJ wasn't exactly what you would call a teamplayer in the 80's, either.


Better chemistry? If you're suggesting that Kobe Bryant is a better player than Michael Jordan (which is really the central argument of this thread), then why did the Shaq and Kobe chemistry achieve so little. They produced one 60-win season. They were man-handled in the playoffs by the Kings and Spurs in 2002 and 2003, respectively, and they were humiliated by the Pistons this year. As Kobe has gotten into his prime, his team has gotten worse. There was absolutely no prospect that the Lakers were ever going to win another title with Shaq and Kobe. By the end of it all, Kobe had alienated nearly everyone on his team and its coaching staff, and he ran off one of the greatest coaches and greatest players of all time.

Do you really think that Michael Jordan couldn't have done better than that?


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

*Lets face it*

Shaq and Jordan wouldnt have gotten along peachy either

I thought id be the only one saying that. It would have ended like what happened this summer.

Since jordan would have been the older one. Would he have been traded away instead of shaq (for you guys that think one would eventually be traded away)??

Kinda like the older guy Shaq got traded away.

maybe?

??


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## QBF (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ufm19</b>!
> 
> 
> MJ is by far better than any Laker ever? I thought you said the competition between Wilt and he was close in the "Best Ever" topic. Once again you continue to only treat MJ like god. Of course Isiah should've made the Dream Team but then Michael said "i am not wasting my summer if Isiah is on the team with me". Isiah was one of the few stars to have the balls to actually say what he felt. Also, no one- not even Shaq- has been helped as much by the refs as MJ. Case point: 1998 Game 6, one nof the most famous shots in history. Everyone praises his last shot. What about the blatant push off that came before? Any other player who tries that gets called. During 1995-1998 I saw him get away with dozens of these little pushoffs or three steps on a drive. He also had a habit of pushing off the defender with his forearm when he went for his signature fadeaway. He never would've led the league in scoring '96-'98 without help from the refs. The refs would also never let him get into foul trouble; in the 1997 Bulls game against some Western team (it was either the Nuggets or the Mavericks, I can't remember) I watched him, with two fouls in the early third quarter, I saw him hit the shooter in the face with his palm and get away with it. In his last couple years he could've never sustained his dominance and without that he probably wouldn't be considered the greatest of alltime.


Camera angles are playing tricks on you, my friend, as Jordan most likely didn't even touch Russell before that championship-winning shot.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>QBF</b>!
> 
> 
> Camera angles are playing tricks on you, my friend, as Jordan most likely didn't even touch Russell before that championship-winning shot.


were you drinking that night... he got away with it...so good for him..but come on man!!!!!!!!!!


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## QBF (Jul 22, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Jordan to Shaq*



> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> ...


?

Were some of you asleep during the 1990s?

Michael Jordan dominated the league for eight straight seasons, during the era of the strongest center play in the history of the NBA. Knowing what we know now, it is impossible to cling to the notion that anyone would have built their team around Shaq instead of MJ when MJ was the most successful and unstoppable force in the history of the NBA. 

Excuse me, but who would choose to build their team around Shaq, who won 3 titles, over Jordan, who won the NBA title every year he played from 1991-1998? How is this even an argument? Isn't hindsight always supposed to be 20/20? This is the kind of stupidity that leads GMs to draft Sam Bowie over Micahel Jordan.


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## QBF (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>nbanoitall</b>!
> 
> 
> were you drinking that night... he got away with it...so good for him..but come on man!!!!!!!!!!


You need to stop watching the video replay from the camera angle behind Jordan and watch the slow motion replay of the camera angle from Jordan's left, which rarely, if ever, gets shown anymore because it doesn't capture Jordan's flawless, championship-winning shot like the rear-angle does. Jordan didn't push Russell, who fell because of how badly Jordan shook him.

This is one of the great myths of the modern NBA, something that not even Bryan Russell complained about after the game. It was only after repeated viewings of the shot in highlight reels that someone decided that it looked like Jordan pushed off.

That's alright, you can't help it that you've only seen the shot from a deceptive angle.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: HYPE*



> Originally posted by <b>hotel312</b>!
> Kobe is the most hyped player in league history!!!! Jordan has 6 NBA Finals MVP's, Kobe will finish his career with ZERO. Jordan also always showed up, he didn't have terrible series. This in't hype, its facts, look at the numbers! Listen to what Magic and Bird and Jerry West say!
> 
> Until Kobe stops choking in NBA Finals series he is not on James Worthy's level to me. He has a Finals MVP and was a team player. Jordan regularly avg more Assists than Kobe in the early days with noone to throw it to. More steals, blocks, its not close. How many times do we see Kobe getting torched?? Some of you guys either don't know the game or you're living in a dream world. What did Pat Riley say, "great players want to be coached, and want to be team players". That says it all, Kobe has a ton to prove.........................Next.


WHAT???

Maybe I misread, misunderstood, but are you strongly biased or just *edited: Do not use personal attacks*???

How do you know that Kobe will never win a Finals MVP? Do you realize that Kobe has never had a season where he is the main man on the team? Do you realize that Jordan did not win one championship series, or even make it to the finals until he was in the league for 7 years? AND do you realize that he is 26, which means that he still has probably 6-8 years before he starts to decline.

And what do you mean until Kobe stop's choking in finals series? Except for this past year, every single finals appearence by him has not signfied him choking in the least. Lets see, the last time he was in the finals is '02, 27 ppg, 6 rpg, 5 apg on .514% shooting, and .545% 3 point shooting. How is that choking?


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Hey if Michael Jordan could get along with Dennis Rodman for 3 years, he could get along with O'Neal. Both MJ and Shaq preferred having the same coach, Phil Jackson so they would have no problem running the triangle. 

Certainly, other factors would have to be considered like who would be playing alongside them and who they have to play. Stars don't win games, it's a team effort. But they do help.


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## SheedSoNasty (Dec 31, 2002)

Sorry, I havn't read any responses to this. They seem to be very long and I'm kinda tired. Based on the poll, I think that Jordan was the epitome (sp?) of a consumate leader and professional. I don't recall very many instances where Jordan was criticized for being too demanding or selfish on the court, at least during the years when Shaq was starting to peak and Jordan started winning championships... but correct me if I'm wrong.

That being said, I have very few doubts that Shaq would have clashed with MJ. First of all, there's the whole age factor. Jordan had been around and seen some great days when Shaq was still in high school. The way that young Kobe came in and basically tried to single handedly take over Shaq's squad kind of pissed him off to begin with. This probably wouldn't have been the case with Jordan the great.

However, nobody really knows what Jordan would have been like without Pippen. Perhaps Jordan thrived by playing with a guy like Pippen who was so versatile. Maybe Shaq would have brought a totally different dimension to MJ's game that would have hurt him, thus making MJ not like him... It's a tough question, but I think that ultimately, Shaq and Jordan would have won many rings together.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

Jordan good player
Kobe fine player


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

what about shaq-pippen?

that would've been a pretty nasty duo, and pippen obviously wouldn't have minded being the #2 option.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>QBF</b>!
> 
> 
> ?
> ...


Silly me. I din´t know that we would have to wait for a player´s career to end (Jordan) or begin to end (Shaq) to answer the question proposed on this thread.
Off course, no Bulls coach *at the time* could tell that Jordan would lead the team to six rings... because the scenario proposed was Shaq joining the Bulls instead of Pippen!!!

Or you didn´t read the thread, or i´m really not getting your point...



> Excuse me, but who would choose to build their team around Shaq, who won 3 titles, over Jordan, who won the NBA title every year he played from 1991-1998?


That´s irrelevant to the topic.
NOW i would chose Jordan over Shaq, obviously.
But if both were coming out of College at the same time there is no doubt in my mind i would take Shaq (again, the "i´m no fortune teller theory").



> How is this even an argument? Isn't hindsight always supposed to be 20/20? This is the kind of stupidity that leads GMs to draft Sam Bowie over Micahel Jordan.


Maybe with this post you can understand my point. If you need more help, i will kindly elaborate further.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> what about shaq-pippen?
> 
> that would've been a pretty nasty duo, and pippen obviously wouldn't have minded being the #2 option.


no question about that


and yes I watched to game...the Bulls obviously deserved the championship that year.

and one replay make that last second shot by jordan look like a bad push off...which it wasnt....
I realize this is jordan we are talking about...and the final seconds of the game...if its not a big time foul...they arent going to call it...which im fine with

but to say jordan never made contract with him is...bull****
they played that at every angle... and I wouldnt want the officals to make the call...but in a different situation or person...they might have blown the whistle on that


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## QBF (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Silly me. I din´t know that we would have to wait for a player´s career to end (Jordan) or begin to end (Shaq) to answer the question proposed on this thread.
> ...


This is insane. You're telling me that, in deciding whether or not you would choose to build your team around Shaq or around MJ, you're going to ignore what they actually did while they were in the league?

When I asked whether or not some of you were asleep during the 1990's, I was basically right - you're boasting that you're argument is based on the 1990's never even happening. This is like speculating as to who would win World War II but dismissing any argument based on what actually happened between the years 1939 to 1945. It's might be interesting to speculate, but it's also demonstrably wrong.

And when you say "But if both were coming out of College at the same time there is no doubt in my mind i would take Shaq" you force me to quote myself: " This is the kind of stupidity that leads GMs to draft Sam Bowie over Micahel Jordan. "


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>QBF</b>!
> 
> 
> This is insane. You're telling me that, in deciding whether or not you would choose to build your team around Shaq or around MJ, you're going to ignore what they actually did while they were in the league?
> ...


*AGAIN: *I´m adressing the question "What if Shaq joined the Bulls instead of Pippen"
*DATE:* That would be 1987-88.
*FACT:* Till that date, Jordan had nor rings nor MVPs.

With me so far?

*HIPOTESE:* Enter the team a certain Shaq O´Neal. 
*FACT: * he showed, as a rookie (and getting the ball plenty) he could score 23.4ppg *on .562FG%!!!*.

*MATER IN HAND:* What i´m saying is that a 24 year old MJ *while* playing his career alongside a 20 year old Shaq wouldn´t have the same career, stats-wise.

*MY PERSONAL OPINION:* I strongly believe that, *given those circunstances*, Jordan would have a hard time amassing scoring titles and MVPS. Off course, the 1st team selections would still be there, and they could (if they co-existed peacefully - doubtfull) bring Chicago a couple more rings.

Hope i could explain my point correctly... and i sure feel we´re talking about diffrent scenarios...



> And when you say "But if both were coming out of College at the same time there is no doubt in my mind i would take Shaq" you force me to quote myself: " This is the kind of stupidity that leads GMs to draft Sam Bowie over Micahel Jordan. "


You couldn´t say that about Hakeem´s selection as overall #1, could you? It wasn´t an *insane* decision at the time, was it?

*AGAIN, MY POINT: *If i was in 1984 and was able to pick from the College ranks Michael Jordan or Shaq O´Neal (and remember this moment is prior to both of them even playing one minute of pro-ball), i would pick the latter.

Would it be the safest bet *at the time*? Yes.
Would i regret it later? Probably yes.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> *MATER IN HAND:* What i´m saying is that a 24 year old MJ *while* playing his career alongside a 20 year old Shaq wouldn´t have the same career, stats-wise.
> ...


this is all true..shaq would have been younger.
Jordan would have already been their guy. Then O'neal comes in. And everyone seems to agree the ball has to go to him first down on the block? Right? Can't see that working with Jordan. The ball went to jordan (in the high) post first. Thats how he wants it.

This wasnt started to compare Kobe's talent to Jordan. Just to say that both of them would have had drama and issues with Shaq. Not saying the guards are wrong and should defer. Not saying shaq is wrong or should defer. Just wanted to make that point.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Silly me. I din´t know that we would have to wait for a player´s career to end (Jordan) or begin to end (Shaq) to answer the question proposed on this thread.
> ...


Orlando Woolridge: "Man it was crazy when he got there, because you just knew you were in the presence of greatness. You knew it from DAY ONE!"


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> *AGAIN: *I´m adressing the question "What if Shaq joined the Bulls instead of Pippen"
> ...


In this post you underestimate both Jordan and Shaq......

First of all Shaq's 56.2% FG is only 2.7% higher than Jordan's 53.5% FG% that year. So what's your point? Secondly......Shaq takes both Pippen and Oakley's production out of the picture. You likely see the Bulls get a defensive minded role player at SF and there are still PLENTY of points to go around.

If Kobe could average 30 PPG at age 24 while shooting only 45%....then what happens if Jordan merely shoots the same amount of shots Kobe shot while shooting 53.5% FG? 

Also.....Shaq attempted roughly 4.5 more FGs per game than Pippen did in both of their third years.....what about the possibility that those shots would have been taken from Horace Grant? Because you add Shaq's attempts, but you have to take away Pippen's attempts and probably Cartwright's as they would have gone straight defense at the 3......so there are probably MORE shots to go around between Jordan and O'neal than there were between Jordan and Pippen. If there aren't you take from Paxson, you take from Grant.....until my scenario happens.....

There doesn't have to be any deferring. Jordan could continue to score his HIGHLY EFFICIENT 32+ PPG while Shaq still got the same amount of shots. 

But what you do is desperately search for any way that you can diminish what Jordan in your opinion would have done in scenario X.....but that theorization:

1. Doesn't have any validity because you're a sour Laker fan that refers to Jordan as O'baldy
2. Isn't what ACTUALLY did happen....something your theories can't change.


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## hotel312 (Jul 13, 2004)

*Drewbs*

You are absolutely correct, Kobe had an outstanding series in 2002 vs NJ. Because he played the team game and took about 17 shots a game. You're making my point for me, the last 2 years he took 7-8 more shots than Shaq per game in the playoffs. He got away from the team game. In 2000 Finals he shot 36%, in 2001 41%, and 38% this year, no matter how you slice it thats bad!! I know he can shoot better, it just demonstrates how many bad shots he took when Shaq was shooting so well(that is not team ball and not how they won 3 titles). How did Fisher avg more reb in this years Finals while playing less than half of the minutes? Kobe even had a ZERO reb game in the Finals, did he run from the ball? That seems absolutely impossible, the ball will find you accidentaly. Kobe is as talented as anyone and he may get better, but it takes more than great skills to be great, it sure helps. Great players are not supposed to have bad NBA Finals series, especially multiple ones. I can't think of any great players who have played as bad in a FInals, they may exist but I can't recall any...........


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

ok....get your votes in
Id like to get a hundred

I will analyze all this in my next thread. Im working on something good. I'm surpised by the results and pleased with them.

I'll add another twist. And predictions we can look at next summer.


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## QBF (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> *AGAIN: *I´m adressing the question "What if Shaq joined the Bulls instead of Pippen"
> ...


Huh? Which is it? Are you arguing based on Shaq entering the league in 1987-88 instead of Pippen or Shaq and MJ entering the league together in 1984? You make a big point of asking me if I'm with you so far, but I'm wondering if you're even still with yourself.



> *HIPOTESE:* Enter the team a certain Shaq O´Neal.
> *FACT: * he showed, as a rookie (and getting the ball plenty) he could score 23.4ppg *on .562FG%!!!*.


Do you even know what Michael Jordan was doing in the league when he was 22, 23 and 24? Let's just say that Shaq's rookie season pales in comparison.



> *MATER IN HAND:* What i´m saying is that a 24 year old MJ *while* playing his career alongside a 20 year old Shaq wouldn´t have the same career, stats-wise.
> 
> *MY PERSONAL OPINION:* I strongly believe that, *given those circunstances*, Jordan would have a hard time amassing scoring titles and MVPS. Off course, the 1st team selections would still be there, and they could (if they co-existed peacefully - doubtfull) bring Chicago a couple more rings.
> 
> Hope i could explain my point correctly... and i sure feel we´re talking about diffrent scenarios...


Magic won MVPs playing next to Kareem. Jordan won the MVP and was the league's best player as a young man in the mid-late 1980's when Bird and Magic were in their primes. I doubt that the young, free-throw clunking Shaq would have changed any of that.



> You couldn´t say that about Hakeem´s selection as overall #1, could you? It wasn´t an *insane* decision at the time, was it?


I can't? Whose city's banners are filled with more championship banners, Houston's or Chicago's?



> Would i regret it later? Probably yes.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Phil has said before that, in their primes, Shaq would have been the #1 option on a team with Jordan. So I say yes, it would have worked, because Jordan respected Phil Jackson enough to defer.
> 
> Though who really knows, Jordan was so competitive and Shaq is so egomaniacal that it might not have worked, or at least not as well as the 90's Bull run did.


Uh no, Phil has said many times that he would start a team with a dominant center over a dominant guard or forward every time. He said he would start a team with Shaq over everyone else. Except for MJ. 

Because he said, he is Michael Jordan.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bender</b>!
> Well, Jordan at Kobe's age and put into Kobe's situation, he would've been #2 to Shaq, too. They would've won a couple of titles together, but they would quarrel and split their ways some years later. Jordan was one of the most tenacious competitors, who wouldn't want to be #2 to an ageing Shaq. And Shaq is, as he said, "too big to ride on the backseat of anybodys car". One of them would've demanded a trade.


And Jordan would have won. Reason being, MJ exploded into the league and became the best player in the league very quickly. 
He embarrassed people, he embarrassed all-stars, he quickly made it known that he was a superior player on both sides of the ball. And he rode his teammates, and rode them good because he always wanted them to make the same effort he was making. 

Jordan=great leader, amazing work ethic, outstanding on both sides of the ball, ability to totally control the game.

Shaq- None of those things.

And Shaq would have fell in line or got the boot.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

*Re: Drewbs*



> Originally posted by <b>hotel312</b>!
> You are absolutely correct, Kobe had an outstanding series in 2002 vs NJ. Because he played the team game and took about 17 shots a game. You're making my point for me, the last 2 years he took 7-8 more shots than Shaq per game in the playoffs. He got away from the team game. In 2000 Finals he shot 36%, in 2001 41%, and 38% this year, no matter how you slice it thats bad!! I know he can shoot better, it just demonstrates how many bad shots he took when Shaq was shooting so well(that is not team ball and not how they won 3 titles). How did Fisher avg more reb in this years Finals while playing less than half of the minutes? Kobe even had a ZERO reb game in the Finals, did he run from the ball? That seems absolutely impossible, the ball will find you accidentaly. Kobe is as talented as anyone and he may get better, but it takes more than great skills to be great, it sure helps. Great players are not supposed to have bad NBA Finals series, especially multiple ones. I can't think of any great players who have played as bad in a FInals, they may exist but I can't recall any...........



Uh you must have missed all those finals games. Come on, he was beyond huge in the Pacers series, especially after coming back from the sprained ankle, winning a game by himself when Shaq fouled out. 

And in all the finals games Kobe has played, his defense has been outstanding. He did not rebound the ball well against the Pistons for various reasons, namley because the Pistons kept him far way from the basket on O and on D he was either guarding the point guard, or chasing Rip through screens. Not the best way to get rebounds.

That said, he has not shot the ball well in the Finals, but he gets plenty of credit for the big plays he made, especially the defensive stops.


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## hotel312 (Jul 13, 2004)

*bballlife*

I've probably watched and played in more games than you could imagine. Yeah, Kobe was real huge vs the Pacers, those 15 pts a game(and horrible shooting) really put the Lakers over the top. You admit that he shot poorly, if he was so great he would shoot well. And he didn't rebound well because of the Pistons defense? I hope you realize that the MAJORITY of rebounds come on the defensive end of the floor, just how do you explain that if he is such a great defender(your words)?!?! And I'm sure if you played 45 minutes in a game at least one ball would find you(you crack me up). You're making it way too easy for me!!!! You better find some help if you're going to debate me about basketball real quick.........................................


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## hotel312 (Jul 13, 2004)

*Drewbs*

You are incorrect about many things but I'll just point out one for now. The Lakers were Kobe's team the last 2 years and that is why they lost. When they were Shaq's team they won 3 rings, and Kobe took over that role along with the bulk of shot attempts. You cannot win an NBA championship series when your leader in shots shoots under 40%, not in the modern era.......................


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

*Re: bballlife*



> Originally posted by <b>hotel312</b>!
> I've probably watched and played in more games than you could imagine. Yeah, Kobe was real huge vs the Pacers, those 15 pts a game(and horrible shooting) really put the Lakers over the top. You admit that he shot poorly, if he was so great he would shoot well. And he didn't rebound well because of the Pistons defense? I hope you realize that the MAJORITY of rebounds come on the defensive end of the floor, just how do you explain that if he is such a great defender(your words)?!?! And I'm sure if you played 45 minutes in a game at least one ball would find you(you crack me up). You're making it way too easy for me!!!! You better find some help if you're going to debate me about basketball real quick.........................................


You're probably wrong, I have watched and played in plenty of games.

UH game 4 in Indiana, game goes to OT, Shaq fouls out. Kobe comes up beyond huge.

Crucial game in the series and Kobe brought it. Playing on the bum ankle that kept him out of most of game 2 and all of game 3.

He had 28 and several huge plays to save the Lakers, like the putback with about 6 seconds left. 

Did you not read what I wrote about why Kobe didnt rebound against Detroit? It sounds like you believe Kobe is a poor rebounder? If thats the case, go watch some more games. He didnt rebound well in the detroit series for 2 main reasons. 1 He was guarding Billups or Hunter a lot, way out on the perimeter, 2nd, when guarding Rip, he was constantly running through screens. Not easy to board when your goal is to shut down perimeter penetration. He was not in position to get boards, especially with the Wallace boys in there, and Shaq. And the Lakers did a horrible job as a team boxing out, thus leading to loads of offensive rebounds for Detroit each game. Lots of reasons on why he didnt board. Nobody on the Lakers was boarding great, Shaq had 2 games where he had 7 and 8. 

So whats your point, he did not rebound well against the Pistons, most of the Lakers didnt. I can give you a list of big playoff games where he pulled down 10+ boards. If you want to debate whether or not he is a good rebounder. 

You better get some help buddy, cause you aint even in my league.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Re: bballlife*



> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> You're probably wrong, I have watched and played in plenty of games.
> ...


How does this change his contention about Kobe's shooting % in that series?


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: bballlife*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> How does this change his contention about Kobe's shooting % in that series?


Ever played basketball on a severly sprained ankle? I have, not an easy task.

Kobe did that for every game in the series except game 1.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

*Re: Drewbs*



> Originally posted by <b>hotel312</b>!
> You are incorrect about many things but I'll just point out one for now. The Lakers were Kobe's team the last 2 years and that is why they lost. When they were Shaq's team they won 3 rings, and Kobe took over that role along with the bulk of shot attempts. You cannot win an NBA championship series when your leader in shots shoots under 40%, not in the modern era.......................



Ya no, a declining Shaq and horrible role players are the reason the Lakers lost the last 2 years. Injuries too, took there toll. Kobe had shoulder injured in round 1 against T-Wolves and was playing on that bad knee. This year- Malones knee forced him out. 

Shaq has 3 rings because of #8.


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## hotel312 (Jul 13, 2004)

*bballlife*

Wow, a sprained ankle!!! Didn't Isiah have about 25 in a quarter agaisnt the Lakers in a Finals game buddy? It was just like this years Finals he had one stand out game, noone is 100% at that stage of the season. My point is that he didn't play the team game, was Fisher's goal not to shut down penetration on the perimeter? Excuses, excuses, excuses!!! Of course he has had great rebounding games, but did he do ANYTHING great in the Finals??????? I guess D Fish managed to get a few around Shaq and the Wallace boys, huh? You are hilarious, and you have no ammunition so you just make excuses. I love these exchanges with you because it is so easy to win them, the funny part is that you don't even realize it buddy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: bballlife*



> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> Ever played basketball on a severly sprained ankle? I have, not an easy task.
> ...


LOL that doesn't change the FACT that his percentage was low.


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

It would have been a disaster No Titles - 6 People here voted for this option. How on earth could anyone talk them selfs in to that. That just goes to show the strong bias love and hate there is to certin players. And in this case hate certin players. ( I will go out on a limb here and assume its a minority of Kobe fans) For anyone to actually believe that Shaq and MJ couldnt win a title together just blows me away.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>QBF</b>!
> 
> Huh? Which is it? Are you arguing based on Shaq entering the league in 1987-88 instead of Pippen or Shaq and MJ entering the league together in 1984? You make a big point of asking me if I'm with you so far, but I'm wondering if you're even still with yourself.


If you actually read my post, you will eventually find that there´s two quotes on it.
So, first i was adressing the hipothetical question "what if Shaq joined the Bulls instead of Pippen".
In the second part, i was responding to your "stupidity" comment about choosing Shaq over Jordan in the *1984* Draft.

Two diffrent oppinions on two diffrent scenarios...

I don´t think it´s that hard to understand.



> Do you even know what Michael Jordan was doing in the league when he was 22, 23 and 24? Let's just say that Shaq's rookie season pales in comparison.


Age 22- Injured (played 18 games for the season)
Age 23- Astounding season: 37.1ppg(!!!) as the only offensive weapon on the team (wich explains is slighty under .500FG%)
Age 24- The season that would see (in the scenario i was adressing) Shaq join the team.



> Magic won MVPs playing next to Kareem. Jordan won the MVP and was the league's best player as a young man in the mid-late 1980's when Bird and Magic were in their primes. I doubt that the young, free-throw clunking Shaq would have changed any of that.


Magic won it´s first MVP in the 86-87 season.
I´ve posted on another thread what i thought about Jordan´s first MVP.



> I can't? Whose city's banners are filled with more championship banners, Houston's or Chicago's?


Did you not read the words "insane" and "at the time" in that sentence?


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 1. Doesn't have any validity because you're a sour Laker fan that refers to Jordan as O'baldy


1- That God that at least none other than Phil Jackson is as deranged as me...
Now where can i go to coach teams to win 9 titles? 
2- "Sour" because of what, exactly? 
3- Don´t forget "His Hairless". That´s also one of my favourites... 



> 2. Isn't what ACTUALLY did happen....something your theories can't change.


Off course it didn´t happen: didn´t you read the thread topic?
About "What if" scenarios: due to the absence of REAL FACTS, one can only theorise...

And please, LB: can you honestly say that my posts about Jordan are stricktly : "I hate Jordan! He´s overrated! I can´t stand the guy"? Because that´s how you seem to think... and if it´s the case, a wrong assumption...


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> 1- That God that at least none other than Phil Jackson is as deranged as me...
> ...


Paulo ive never said you're a bad fan...just off base on this one. Your comments like "back in 1988 nobody knew Jordan would win 6 rings." I don't know about the number 6.....but people knew. By the end of his second year (1986) people knew it was only a question of when.....not IF. 

And you wish to pretend we do not know what we know now.....view it PROSPECTIVELY..... but you fail to respond to the FACT that we DO KNOW what happened with MJ AND SHAQ.

Also let me thank you for not approaching me like EHL and Da Bruins...."LB, you have no credibility, remember when you were wrong 3 times in the millions of contentions you've made on this site. You're not perfect LOL" <snort>


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

whats the record for votes on a poll?


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

*Re: bballlife*



> Originally posted by <b>hotel312</b>!
> Wow, a sprained ankle!!! Didn't Isiah have about 25 in a quarter agaisnt the Lakers in a Finals game buddy? It was just like this years Finals he had one stand out game, noone is 100% at that stage of the season. My point is that he didn't play the team game, was Fisher's goal not to shut down penetration on the perimeter? Excuses, excuses, excuses!!! Of course he has had great rebounding games, but did he do ANYTHING great in the Finals??????? I guess D Fish managed to get a few around Shaq and the Wallace boys, huh? You are hilarious, and you have no ammunition so you just make excuses. I love these exchanges with you because it is so easy to win them, the funny part is that you don't even realize it buddy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You only winning them in your mind. You provide no facts to back up your opinion. 


As if it matters, the ankle was sprained so badly that it caused team doctors not to give him clearance to play in game 3. I doubt Isiah's was nearly as bad. 


You are going on nothing, I am not making excuses, I provided and can provide more facts to prove my point that no Lakers rebounded well against the Pistons and Kobe is a good rebounder .

I think Kobe was 3rd on the Lakers in rpg against the Pistions. What is wrong with that? 

OH NO Kobe wasnt playing the team game. OH GOD, Do you really expect Kobe to confine perfectly to the triangle and let things go when the Pistons are letting Shaq get whatever he wants, no other player on the Lakers can score, and the Pistons defense is killing their half court offense. 

Team game huh, lets see. 

Brown decides to A. Let Shaq have his way, not doubling him. B. Double Kobe hard from the perimeter, make him attack 25 feet away. C. make the sorry Laker role players beat the Pistons.

Thats the formula that killed the Lakers, Kobe playing more of a team game would have done nothing, he had to break out of the triangle and try to make something happen.

The key to beating the Pistons was to run, run, run, so they couldnt get into their halfcourt D. 

Phil never realized this, and the rest is history.

You're done.


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## ufm19 (Jun 7, 2004)

*Re: Re: bballlife*



> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> You only winning them in your mind. You provide no facts to back up your opinion.
> ...


the pistons get back into their halfcourt D better than anyone else. sure, nj came closer than anyone else to beating them but what about Game 7? Something like 2 fast break points? Kobe- and Tay's D on him- is the #1 reason Detroit won. Kobe "My Wife Can't Satisfy Heir Jordan Bi0tch" Bryant acted like a complete idiot and had one of the worst Finals of any main perimeter threat in the last few years, in terms of playing out of the offense, shooting ugly fadeaways, not giving it to shaq, etc. What's funny is that's how he usually played the last two years, ever since he got a big head when he went on his huge 40-point streak in Feb. '03, but he always got away with it until D-Troit came into town. I have argued with LB many times about MJ not being the best ever but Kobe doesn't come close. MJ was the best guard and slasher ever in his prime, Kobe at his best so far doesn't make Top 10 in my book.


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## QBF (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> If you actually read my post, you will eventually find that there´s two quotes on it.
> ...


No matter how many scenarios you devise, Michael Jordan is the greatest player in the history of the NBA and always would have been the first option on any team he played on. The past 20 years of NBA history disproves every theory you have advocated in this thread.



> Age 22- Injured (played 18 games for the season)
> Age 23- Astounding season: 37.1ppg(!!!) as the only offensive weapon on the team (wich explains is slighty under .500FG%)
> Age 24- The season that would see (in the scenario i was adressing) Shaq join the team.


Age 22 - After missing almost the entire regular season due to a foot injury, Michael Jordan comes back for the playoffs and almost single-handedly defeats the greatest Boston Celtics team of all time. Jordan scored 63 points in one game, averaged over 50 points for the series, and is referred to by Larry Bird as a deity.

Age 23 - Averaged almost 40 points a game for an entire regular season. Nobody has come close since.

Age 24 - 35 ppg on 53.5% shooting, 5.5 rpg, 6 apg, 3 spg, 1.5 bpg, league MVP, all-star MVP, 1st team all-defense.

In the scenario you are addressing, Shaq joins the team, and Shaq is the second option.



> Magic won it´s first MVP in the 86-87 season. I´ve posted on another thread what i thought about Jordan´s first MVP.


I'm sure it's an interesting read.




> Did you not read the words "insane" and "at the time" in that sentence?


I have read every word you have written in support of your sinking position.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>QBF</b>!
> 
> 
> No matter how many scenarios you devise, Michael Jordan is the greatest player in the history of the NBA and always would have been the first option on any team he played on. The past 20 years of NBA history disproves every theory you have advocated in this thread.
> ...


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## QBF (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!


Good catch.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

You've done good this whole thread brother. Make sure you don't misspell anything though....Da Bruins will be linking you for months.


----------



## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

I vote LB26matrixns to be Basketball Boards . Net President 

Completely right on about MJ.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> Also let me thank you for not approaching me like EHL and Da Bruins...."LB, you have no credibility, remember when you were wrong 3 times in the millions of contentions you've made on this site. You're not perfect LOL" <snort>


Thanks.
But just don´t run into me in a dark alley when i´m with my trusted baseball bat...
:joke:



> Originally posted by <b>QBF</b>!
> No matter how many scenarios you devise, Michael Jordan is the greatest player in the history of the NBA


If you start with that assumption and i start with the opposite assumption (that MJ is not the greatest ever), one will never agree in something Jordan/Wilt/Magic related...
That´s fine with me.
I guess we´ll just have to agree on desagreeing...


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> ...


Ok let's say you assume Magic and Wilt are as good as Jordan.....just for the sake of discussion. Shaq is not Magic or Wilt.


----------



## DaBruins (Jul 30, 2003)

Magic and Wilt are as good as Michael, and Shaq is definitely not in that discussion. I dont care that you were wrong, even though it was obvious you were going to be, but i hate when you try covering it up and pretend that you werent wrong.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> Ok let's say you assume Magic and Wilt are as good as Jordan.....just for the sake of discussion. Shaq is not Magic or Wilt.


Come on, LB, was that really necessary?
*You know *i consider Wilt and Magic better than Jordan...  

Shaq, who i rank in *my* personal All-Nba top-10, is nowhere near Wilt, Magic... or Jordan...


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Come on, LB, was that really necessary?
> ...


Want to do all time draft? One of us picks first and the person who doesn't pick first picks second and third, then the other person fourth and fifth until each person has 15 players....then we each name 12 to our active roster and people argue over who would win. I'm not leavin for the bars for a couple hours so let me know


----------



## WhoDaBest23 (Apr 16, 2003)

Interesting topic. Shaq did not have a lot of respect for Kobe, if any to begin with. He definitely would've had it for Jordan. I think that even with Shaq's body and dominance, Jordan still would've been the #1 option. He was a gamer and the most competitive player in history. Shaq would've easily defered to him I think. Maybe as Jordan started to wear down, then he might've to start defering to Shaq as the #1 option. Jordan and Shaq would've made one hell of a duo.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> Want to do all time draft? One of us picks first and the person who doesn't pick first picks second and third, then the other person fourth and fifth until each person has 15 players....then we each name 12 to our active roster and people argue over who would win. I'm not leavin for the bars for a couple hours so let me know


Strange that you propose that, LB, cause i was meaning to challenge you for that exact task...
But it would be of no good, i´m afraid, for it would be very difficult to match players for different eras...

For example: let´s say i would pick Dave Debushere (sp?) for my defensive-oriented SF, and you would pick Pippen... How could we judge both players one-on-one? Or even let others to decide (very few people know about Dave)?....

No doubt in my mind that if you chose Jordan as your SG and i chose West you would have the advantage... but what if you chose Duncan at Pf to my McHale or even Baylor?

Wilt against Hakeem (beggining with the assumption you would pick him...)?

I don´t know if this would work out at all...


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Strange that you propose that, LB, cause i was meaning to challenge you for that exact task...
> ...


Well I'm all for it.......it's a discussion for educated posters. The fun thing about it is that all the people who only know today's players would stay out lol.


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

You have choice to pick first, or second and third.


----------



## Lope31 (Jun 11, 2002)

I didn't read any of this thread so if the topic has changed to Australian rebels setting fire to midgets then I am going to sound like a total goofball...

Jordan or Shaq would be seperated before we could realize how awesome the two of them were. Just like Vince and T-Mac. NOW we think about how awesome that would have been (like two years ago, the good Vince) but at the time people didn't think too much of it.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> You have choice to pick first, or second and third.


All right, LB... I´m down.
Let´s make this through PM... and ask for posters voting last...
I´ve gotta go, so you can pick first, and i´lll come back at you tomorrow...

:greatjob:


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> All right, LB... I´m down.
> ...


Nah do it here....this topic is so full of extras no one will care lol. 

Michael Jordan


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: bballlife*



> Originally posted by <b>ufm19</b>!
> 
> 
> the pistons get back into their halfcourt D better than anyone else. sure, nj came closer than anyone else to beating them but what about Game 7? Something like 2 fast break points? Kobe- and Tay's D on him- is the #1 reason Detroit won. Kobe "My Wife Can't Satisfy Heir Jordan Bi0tch" Bryant acted like a complete idiot and had one of the worst Finals of any main perimeter threat in the last few years, in terms of playing out of the offense, shooting ugly fadeaways, not giving it to shaq, etc. What's funny is that's how he usually played the last two years, ever since he got a big head when he went on his huge 40-point streak in Feb. '03, but he always got away with it until D-Troit came into town. I have argued with LB many times about MJ not being the best ever but Kobe doesn't come close. MJ was the best guard and slasher ever in his prime, Kobe at his best so far doesn't make Top 10 in my book.



*edited* 

And if you dont think MJ is the greatest player ever, please go sit by your tv until some old bulls games come on ESPN classic.

Otherwise, save it.


----------



## nikebasketball (Jan 28, 2004)

*
Win Championships, but have drama, and one gets traded away
*


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> Nah do it here....this topic is so full of extras no one will care lol.
> 
> Michael Jordan


Magic Johnson;
Wilt Chamberlain;


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Magic Johnson;
> Wilt Chamberlain;


Lew Alcindor
Bill Russell

Michael Jordan


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> Lew Alcindor
> Bill Russell
> 
> Michael Jordan


I hope you´re not emplying (sp?) that Russ will be your PF. The guy is a center (such as i couldn´t pick Hakeem to play next to Wilt)...

Are you sure you pick both centers?


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> I hope you´re not emplying (sp?) that Russ will be your PF. The guy is a center (such as i couldn´t pick Hakeem to play next to Wilt)...
> ...


You can pick whoever you want and put them wherever you want. If you want to have Garnett at SF or Dirk at Center or Debusschere at SF or Havlicek at SG or Oscar at SF be my guest. The team is your team. You have so many picks to fit the best players into your scheme. The freedom is yours. As long as you don't have a center playing SF or a PF playing two guard we're fine.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> You can pick whoever you want and put them wherever you want. If you want to have Garnett at SF or Dirk at Center or Debusschere at SF or Havlicek at SG or Oscar at SF be my guest. The team is your team. You have so many picks to fit the best players into your scheme. The freedom is yours. As long as you don't have a center playing SF or a PF playing two guard we're fine.


Then:

Scottie Pippen;
Hakeem Olajuwon;

Magic Johnson;
Wilt Chamberlain;


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Then:
> ...


Lew Alcindor
Bill Russell
Larry Bird
Michael Jordan
Oscar Robertson


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Lew Alcindor
> ...


Jerry West;
Dennis Rodman;

Scottie Pippen;
Hakeem Olajuwon;

Magic Johnson;
Wilt Chamberlain;


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Jerry West;
> ...


Lew Alcindor, Shaquille O'neal
Bill Russell
Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant
Michael Jordan, 
Oscar Robertson


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Perused through this thread, what a laugh. Anyway, one point I wanted to address...



> No matter how many scenarios you devise, Michael Jordan is the greatest player in the history of the NBA and always would have been the first option on any team he played on.


Really? Is that why Phil Jackson said Shaq would be the first option on a team with Jordan and Shaq in their primes? Or was he just lying?


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Perused through this thread, what a laugh. Anyway, one point I wanted to address...
> 
> 
> ...


That was addressed......he said if you pick between a perimeter player or a center you pick the center unless the perimeter player is michael jordan

Also....anything Phil says when he's coaching Shaq about who he'd take between Shaq and Jordan is irrelevant. He's COACHING SHAQ when he makes that statement. Who do you think he's biased towards?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

if jordan was playing with kareem, it would make sense for them to try and get kareem as many good looks as possible.

the first option doesn't mean he's the guy who's going to score more points, just the guy they'd prefer to have the first go at a good look. imo, nobody is a better first option than kareem. however, jordan was better than anyone at being able to get a good shot off. whereas it's easier to collapse on a center, it was almost impossible to take the ball out of jordan's hands.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> if jordan was playing with kareem, it would make sense for them to try and get kareem as many good looks as possible.
> 
> the first option doesn't mean he's the guy who's going to score more points, just the guy they'd prefer to have the first go at a good look. imo, nobody is a better first option than kareem. however, jordan was better than anyone at being able to get a good shot off. whereas it's easier to collapse on a center, it was almost impossible to take the ball out of jordan's hands.


I don't care if Jordan is the fifth option if you're not saying he won't lead the team in scoring lol. Fact is.....even if Shaq was the first option in the halfcourt set.....Jordan scored probably 7-8 PPG on the break in 1988.....so he'd be fine. Jordan and Shaq would both average over thirty and the Bulls or Lakers (whichever team) would win 77 games


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## Jordan4life_2004 (Jul 24, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> That was addressed......he said if you pick between a perimeter player or a center you pick the center unless the perimeter player is michael jordan
> ...


I couldn't have said that any better myself. Phil is a lot of things. But he's no dummy. Why would he take a chance of damaging Shaq's fragile ego when he doesn't have to? If Phil is still coaching Michael, he would've no doubt said he'd take MJ over Shaq.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> Lew Alcindor, Shaquille O'neal
> Bill Russell
> ...


Tim Duncan;
Isiah Thomas;

Jerry West;
Dennis Rodman;

Scottie Pippen;
Hakeem Olajuwon;

Magic Johnson;
Wilt Chamberlain;


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> That was addressed......he said if you pick between a perimeter player or a center you pick the center unless the perimeter player is michael jordan


Addressed by who, you? That's opinion, pure and simple.



> Also....anything Phil says when he's coaching Shaq about who he'd take between Shaq and Jordan is irrelevant.


No, sorry, I'll believe one of the greatest coaches in NBA history over you. 



> He's COACHING SHAQ when he makes that statement. Who do you think he's biased towards?


Um what? For crying out loud, you're a Bulls fan, you should know Phil has (and probably will continue to be) a loyal Bulls fan at heart. He practically transplanted former Bulls players during the Lakers title run, which I thought was pretty funny (and smart, I love Harper and Grant). And besides, Shaq has _always_ maintained that Jordan was better than him, he has said so *countless* times. Jackson had nothing to protect, he was asked point blank and responded very candidly. This was during the 2000 season of course, Shaq’s best year.


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## DaBruins (Jul 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Lew Alcindor, Shaquille O'neal
> ...


surprising that you would pick Kobe in the top 13. Anyway, i'm not sure if Oscar and Michael would coexist very well in the backcourt. Oscar was a good passer but was always a shoot first point guard. Although i dont think hes as good a player, IMO Stockton would fit better with MJ, Larry, Kobe, Russell, Lew and Shaq

BTW, My all time team would be: 
Wilt
Russell
Pippen
Michael
Magic

I dont think these are the top 5 players in league history or anything, but they'd have quite the chemistry out there on the court. With Magic, Michael and Pippen youre guaranteed to have a killer fast break team and in the halfcourt Wilt will dominate. Russell is also a guy who doesnt really need to score that much and instead will be dominant on the boards and the defensive end. So in my opinion i think youre teams are close because both of you have split up my 5 players pretty evenly. There really is no end to this argument because there is no way to effectively argue that one team would beat the other.


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Addressed by who, you? That's opinion, pure and simple.
> ...


So if that's not what was said.....AS CLAIMED EARLIER in this thread.....please LINK me to Jackson's comments.

Jordan is number one over Shaq all day and all night. Because you miss a key fact. The head coach of the Bulls in 1988 was Doug Collins, and I don't know who it was in 1996 for the Lakers but it was not Phil Jackson. And if someone CAME IN with the idea of making Jordan the second option.....they wouldn't be the coach.

Jackson's comments about the relative merit of two players are biased if he's currently coaching one player period.


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBruins</b>!
> 
> 
> surprising that you would pick Kobe in the top 13. Anyway, i'm not sure if Oscar and Michael would coexist very well in the backcourt. Oscar was a good passer but was always a shoot first point guard. Although i dont think hes as good a player, IMO Stockton would fit better with MJ, Larry, Kobe, Russell, Lew and Shaq
> ...


Yeah but we're picking against each other so.....you can't pick ALL the players you want. You get HALF the players you want lol.

But Da Bruins......way to predict my next move:

Lew Alcindor, Shaquille O'neal
Bill Russell, Karl Malone
Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant
Michael Jordan
Oscar Robertson, John Stockton


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Exactly

But I have heard Phil on several occasions say that he would go with Jordan over Shaq as #1 option. Indirectly of course, he would never say it out right, because he was indeed Shaq's coach at the time.


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Minstrel, knock of the bs. I am going to report you to whoever, you cant be deleting most or all of my posts just because you have a grudge against me.

Get off it, and stop abusing your power. Who the heck do you think you are?

That response to um19 had no insults in it.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> Minstrel, knock of the bs. I am going to report you to whoever, you cant be deleting most or all of my posts just because you have a grudge against me.


Please feel free to report me. I've never discouraged such action. I have no grudge against you; I disagree with a lot of what you have to say but I only edit you when you are insulting, which you are frequently and you refuse to stop doing.



> Get off it, and stop abusing your power. Who the heck do you think you are?
> 
> That response to um19 had no insults in it.


Telling people to stop posting or that no one cares what they have to say is inappropriate. If you don't like being edited, you can either be civil or feel free not to post.

Please direct further concerns about moderation to me, if you'd like, or to anyone above me, if you wish to argue that I've been unfair to you. Public forums aren't the place to argue moderation.

Word of warning: Further slams on moderation in threads will be deleted. PMs are the appropriate venue.


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## martin bolima (Jun 11, 2003)

if Jordan came before Shaq, the Diesel would have deferred to MJ, and vice-versa. Had they played together, it would have worked out real well. Jordan had proven to be a willing passer as a player. He deferred to Steve Kerr during the grandest of stages all in the spirit of team goals. And I think Michael was one of the smartest players ever to have played the game that he'll have no problem playing with someone like Shaq. Besides, I think if they played together, I don't think we will see them defer to each other. I see them more complimenting each other.


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## Jordan4life_2004 (Jul 24, 2004)

MJ was about winning. He didn't care about anything else. Money, Mvp's, scoring titles. It was about winning. I have no doubt in my mind that MJ would've made it work with Shaq. If Kobe was all about WINNING they would more than likely still be together.


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## DaBruins (Jul 30, 2003)

you guys forget that there may be different perceptions out there, but many sources indicate that it was only because management didn't show enough love to Shaq that Shaq demanded a trade. It really had nothing to do with Kobe, other than the fact that he happened to be the man they were focusing on. Kobe himself has admitted that he wouldve never traded Shaq and that Shaq made his life a lot easier. We dont really know what happened between Kobe, Shaq, and the front office, but i'll tell you this, if we still had Jerry West we would still have Shaq to go along side Kobe.


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> So if that's not what was said.....AS CLAIMED EARLIER in this thread.....please LINK me to Jackson's comments.


You're disputing Jackson said it? LOL, get over it, he said it. It was an interview on FSN. I mean, I guess I could go drudge it up, but it really isn't worth my time, as you'd probably just tell me that FSN forced Jackson at gunpoint to say so. 



> Jordan is number one over Shaq all day and all night.


Wow, you're so convincing, how do you do it?



> Because you miss a key fact. The head coach of the Bulls in 1988 was Doug Collins, and I don't know who it was in 1996 for the Lakers but it was not Phil Jackson. And if someone CAME IN with the idea of making Jordan the second option.....they wouldn't be the coach.


What the heck are you talking about? This is all hypothetical. For example, it's like asking how many titles Kobe and Kareem would win together, *hypothetical*. Shaq's actual age in relation to Jordan's when they were both in the NBA is irrelevant. The reason I bring up Phil Jackson's feelings on the matter is because he coached both players in approximately the same era and is a HOF coach, making his opinion on the matter quite relevant. 



> Jackson's comments about the relative merit of two players are biased if he's currently coaching one player period.


No, you just see it that way because it doesn't support your argument. Why is it biased? If Shaq has been openly proclaiming since the 90's that Jordan was better than him, and Phil Jackson has undeniably heard Shaq utter those comments, what on earth does Phil gain by lying in an interview about who would be the #1 option? If there's nothing to hide/protect/lie about, crying "Bias!" on Jackson's part makes absolutely no sense.


----------



## Jordan4life_2004 (Jul 24, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> You're disputing Jackson said it? LOL, get over it, he said it. It was an interview on FSN. I mean, I guess I could go drudge it up, but it really isn't worth my time, as you'd probably just tell me that FSN forced Jackson at gunpoint to say so.
> ...



What exactly is your argument? Please don't let it be that Shaq is greater than Jordan? I don't want to have to destroy you.


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Jordan4life_2004</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly is your argument? Please don't let it be that Shaq is greater than Jordan? I don't want to have to destroy you.


Yes, Shaq is 10 times the player Jordan was. In fact, Jordan's not even top 100 all time. Duh!!!

And if you don't understand what this argument's about, I suggest you leave the thread.


----------



## Jordan4life_2004 (Jul 24, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, Shaq is 10 times the player Jordan was. In fact, Jordan's not even top 100 all time. Duh!!!
> ...


Why don't you stop acting like a little girl. I know what the thread is about. What are you arguing about is what I wanted to know?


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Jordan4life_2004</b>!
> 
> 
> Why don't you stop acting like a little girl. I know what the thread is about. What are you arguing about is what I wanted to know?


Little girl? Taking tips from LB are we? :laugh: 

Anyway, since you apparently lack the ability to read carefully, I'll make it easy...



> If there's nothing to hide/protect/lie about, crying "Bias!" on Jackson's part makes absolutely no sense.


----------



## Jordan4life_2004 (Jul 24, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Little girl? Taking tips from LB are we? :laugh:
> ...


If there's nothing to hide/protect/lie about, crying "Bias!" on Jackson's part makes absolutely no sense.

Dude. What's the argument? LB was right when he said that Phil said he would take a dominant center over a dominant shooting guard as long as that shooting guard is not Michael Jordan. I can dig it up if you want me to. And if you really believe Phil didn't try to protect Shaq's fragile ego you're naive. Shaq was already feeling theatned by Kobe. So you don't think Phil is gonna say whatever he has to to keep Shaq happy?


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Jordan4life_2004</b>!
> Dude. What's the argument? LB was right when he said that Phil said he would take a dominant center over a dominant shooting guard as long as that shooting guard is not Michael Jordan. I can dig it up if you want me to.


Yeah, I'd like to know when Jackson said that. 



> And if you really believe Phil didn't try to protect Shaq's fragile ego you're naive. Shaq was already feeling theatned by Kobe. So you don't think Phil is gonna say whatever he has to to keep Shaq happy?


Um, judging from your avatar, I would assume you realize Kobe Bryant isn't the same as Michael Jordan.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> Lew Alcindor, Shaquille O'neal
> Bill Russell, Karl Malone
> Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant
> ...


*John Havlicek;
Kevin McHale;*

Tim Duncan;
Isiah Thomas;

Jerry West;
Dennis Rodman;

Scottie Pippen;
Hakeem Olajuwon;

Magic Johnson;
Wilt Chamberlain;


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> *John Havlicek;
> ...


Lew Alcindor, Shaquille O'neal, David Robinson
Bill Russell, Karl Malone
Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant
Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler
Oscar Robertson, John Stockton


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> Lew Alcindor, Shaquille O'neal, David Robinson
> Bill Russell, Karl Malone
> Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant
> ...


*Gary Payton;
George Gervin*

John Havlicek;
Kevin McHale;

Tim Duncan;
Isiah Thomas;

Jerry West;
Dennis Rodman;

Scottie Pippen;
Hakeem Olajuwon;

Magic Johnson;
Wilt Chamberlain;


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> *Gary Payton;
> ...


Lew Alcindor, Shaquille O'neal, David Robinson
Bill Russell, Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett
Larry Bird, Elgin Baylor, Kobe Bryant
Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler
Oscar Robertson, John Stockton


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Lew Alcindor, Shaquille O'neal, David Robinson
> ...


*Rick Barry;
Charles Barkley;*

Gary Payton;
George Gervin

John Havlicek;
Kevin McHale;

Tim Duncan;
Isiah Thomas;

Jerry West;
Dennis Rodman;

Scottie Pippen;
Hakeem Olajuwon;

Magic Johnson;
Wilt Chamberlain;

... and i smell a check-mate...


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> You're disputing Jackson said it? LOL, get over it, he said it. It was an interview on FSN. I mean, I guess I could go drudge it up, but it really isn't worth my time, as you'd probably just tell me that FSN forced Jackson at gunpoint to say so.


Prove it.



> Wow, you're so convincing, how do you do it?


"Detroit will win the Finals"

"Just more bump material for you."



> What the heck are you talking about? This is all hypothetical. For example, it's like asking how many titles Kobe and Kareem would win together, *hypothetical*. Shaq's actual age in relation to Jordan's when they were both in the NBA is irrelevant. The reason I bring up Phil Jackson's feelings on the matter is because he coached both players in approximately the same era and is a HOF coach, making his opinion on the matter quite relevant.


If you can't figure out my perfectly coherent statement...that's your problem not mine. 



> No, you just see it that way because it doesn't support your argument. Why is it biased? If Shaq has been openly proclaiming since the 90's that Jordan was better than him, and Phil Jackson has undeniably heard Shaq utter those comments, what on earth does Phil gain by lying in an interview about who would be the #1 option? If there's nothing to hide/protect/lie about, crying "Bias!" on Jackson's part makes absolutely no sense.


Well the biggest thing about Phil is.....Michael did what he wanted to do anyway. So irrelevant *** Phil says "Shaq would be the number one option"....which you still haven't proven....LOL and Jordan would dribble the ball down and go to the hole and either dump off to Shaq or finish on his own whether Phil said Shaq was number one or Phil was jumping up in a clown suit saying MJ was number one. What I'm trying to tell you is that:

1. You haven't proven your statement
2. MANY people in this thread have said Phil's statement was "Shaq would be number one over anyone BUT Jordan, cause he's Jordan."
3. I wasn't there and I never saw either statement, so EVEN if Phil did say that...
4. It is biased from the standpoint that he was coaching Shaq and his utility is linked to Shaq's happiness at that point
5. Who the F is Phil
6. Jordan coached the Bulls teams anyway.....everybody besides perhaps you and some other Laker fans knows that when a Bull messed up JORDAN was the player they feared and if anyone coached the offense from an X and Os standpoint it was Tex Winter. Jordan was the disciplinarian, Winter was the X and O guy. What did Phil do? Coattails anyone? 

The reason you even care about arguing this is you feel that if you can somehow prove that Jordan would have been subjugated to Kobe's role....his production would have lowered to Kobe's level, and conversely if Kobe had had the freedom that MJ had in the 80s his production would rise to Jordan's level. Both WISHES are wrong. Jordan is FLAT out FAR SUPERIOR to Kobe as a basketball player, at the same age, in any given situation. Kobe will show you this year without Shaq that 32 PPG, 8 RPG, 8 APG, 3.16 SPG, 1.6 BPG and 53.8% FG IS NOT HAPPENING. Jordan with Shaq at center would have put up the same points, better assists, more steals, more blocks and the team would have run roughshot over the league.


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

Lew Alcindor, Shaquille O'neal, David Robinson
Bill Russell, Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett, Bob McAdoo
Larry Bird, Elgin Baylor, Kobe Bryant
Michael Jordan, Clyde Drexler
Oscar Robertson, John Stockton, Walt Frazier


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

I mean EHL your comment is almost as funny as:

"Well John Salley played with both Kobe and Jordan and he said Kobe is better."


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> Lew Alcindor, Shaquille O'neal, David Robinson
> Bill Russell, Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett, Bob McAdoo
> Larry Bird, Elgin Baylor, Kobe Bryant
> ...


#15: *Drazen Petrovic *

Rick Barry;
Charles Barkley;

Gary Payton;
George Gervin

John Havlicek;
Kevin McHale;

Tim Duncan;
Isiah Thomas;

Jerry West;
Dennis Rodman;

Scottie Pippen;
Hakeem Olajuwon;

Magic Johnson;
Wilt Chamberlain;

LB, there´s nothing wrong in conceiding defeat... it just makes you the better man...


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> I mean EHL your comment is almost as funny as:
> 
> "Well John Salley played with both Kobe and Jordan and he said Kobe is better."


LB, where is this coming from? We all know MJ is better than Kobe ! (at least, for now  )

So what´s your point?


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> Prove it.


You're right, I should prove it. I guess it's my fault for not taping it and converting it onto my computer for download. It was there, it was an interview. But it definitely is true (whether you'd like to believe it or not). I'll try to find a link for you.



> "Detroit will win the Finals"
> 
> "Just more bump material for you."


Haha, that out of context statement isn't nearly as bad as "95 Penny=04 Penny", "Payton took the MLE", "Vlade means no Malone", "No Butler AND a pick", "SA over LA in the playoffs and it won't be close", "05 Lakers will look like 99 Bulls", etc. etc. etc. 

Man, it must really get to you if that's still in your sig. :laugh:



> If you can't figure out my perfectly coherent statement...that's your problem not mine.


I think the problem is that you actually believe anyone was arguing your point. You know what they say about people who argue for the sake of arguing...



> Well the biggest thing about Phil is.....Michael did what he wanted to do anyway.


No, he really didn't, and it's sad that a Bulls fan doesn't know that. But what else should I expect from you, you're the same guy that has been wrong so many times that he clings to out of context statements to sleep better at night. Oh yeah, and Chicago doesn't have weather problems, there's only 3-4 weeks of snow, I forgot about that gem. :laugh:



> So irrelevant *** Phil says "Shaq would be the number one option"....which you still haven't proven....LOL and Jordan would dribble the ball down and go to the hole and either dump off to Shaq or finish on his own whether Phil said Shaq was number one or Phil was jumping up in a clown suit saying MJ was number one.


You're so convincing. Wow!



> What I'm trying to tell you is that:
> 
> 1. You haven't proven your statement


True. Sorry I don't have the interview taped and ready for download. You haven't proven otherwise, but yes, burden of proof is on my shoulders. 



> 2. MANY people in this thread have said Phil's statement was "Shaq would be number one over anyone BUT Jordan, cause he's Jordan."


Many? Like what, two people, who haven't even linked the quote at that? I'm not doubting it's true, but that quote hasn't been proven yet either. As you said, where's the proof?



> 3. I wasn't there and I never saw either statement, so EVEN if Phil did say that...
> 4. It is biased from the standpoint that he was coaching Shaq and his utility is linked to Shaq's happiness at that point.


Please, stop embarrassing yourself (well actually, it's pretty funny, nevermind). Why (I'm put it in bold and capitals: *WHY*) would Phil Jackson lie about it? What's his motivation? Since it's well known that Shaq has always said Jordan was greater than him, what does Phil have to gain by lying? The whole "It keeps Shaq happy" statement doesn't make any sense knowing how many times Shaq has said Jordan was better than him. 



> 5. Who the F is Phil.


Amazing retort. You must have attended the best schools in the world. 



> 6. Jordan coached the Bulls teams anyway.....everybody besides perhaps you and some other Laker fans knows that when a Bull messed up JORDAN was the player they feared and if anyone coached the offense from an X and Os standpoint it was Tex Winter. Jordan was the disciplinarian, Winter was the X and O guy. What did Phil do? Coattails anyone?


A sad, unsupported, and generally ridiculous statement, especially for a Bulls fan. But go ahead, continue to spout utterly ridiculous paragraphs like that one, it's just more material we can use.



> The reason you even care about arguing this is you feel that if you can somehow prove that Jordan would have been subjugated to Kobe's role....his production would have lowered to Kobe's level, and conversely if Kobe had had the freedom that MJ had in the 80s his production would rise to Jordan's level. Both WISHES are wrong.


I mentioned this in another thread; you have something called acute paranoia, and you need to seek help. This has _nothing_ to do with Kobe. 



> Jordan is FLAT out FAR SUPERIOR to Kobe as a basketball player, at the same age, in any given situation. Kobe will show you this year without Shaq that 32 PPG, 8 RPG, 8 APG, 3.16 SPG, 1.6 BPG and 53.8% FG IS NOT HAPPENING.


Who cares? Are you really so naive that you'd compare stats across different eras separated by more than 15 years? Yikes. 



> Jordan with Shaq at center would have put up the same points, better assists, more steals, more blocks and the team would have run roughshot over the league.


Seriously convincing stuff, thanks.


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> I mean EHL your comment is almost as funny as:
> 
> "Well John Salley played with both Kobe and Jordan and he said Kobe is better."


Let's see here, trust LB26matrixns over a former Lakers-Bulls dynasty player. Thinking...thinking...er, yeah, right. :uhoh:


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

*edited: As I said, further discussion of moderation on public threads will be deleted. Feel free to direct your concerns to me or someone above me, by PM. Thanks*


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Jordan4life_2004</b>!
> If there's nothing to hide/protect/lie about, crying "Bias!" on Jackson's part makes absolutely no sense.
> 
> Dude. What's the argument? LB was right when he said that Phil said he would take a dominant center over a dominant shooting guard as long as that shooting guard is not Michael Jordan. I can dig it up if you want me to. And if you really believe Phil didn't try to protect Shaq's fragile ego you're naive. Shaq was already feeling theatned by Kobe. So you don't think Phil is gonna say whatever he has to to keep Shaq happy?



This is all correct.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Let's see here, trust LB26matrixns over a former Lakers-Bulls dynasty player. Thinking...thinking...er, yeah, right. :uhoh:


See Paulo......EHL buys into this comment. F total statistical domination when you have John Salley's opinion. Forget that Salley also once played for Jordan's biggest rival....


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> See Paulo......EHL buys into this comment. F total statistical domination when you have John Salley's opinion. Forget that Salley also once played for Jordan's biggest rival....


Yo, LB, don´t bring me into this...
I´ve debated that same question over and over again in this thread, and still you wouldn´t agree...
Well, that´s fine by me (some people are due to be wrong  )... but i stay by my reasoning.... (and Jackson´s, by that matter...  )


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Yo, LB, don´t bring me into this...
> ...


Your comment was "why is this relevant, we know Jordan is better than Kobe." Well.....EHL buys into Salley's comment because he doesn't agree with you on that conclusion.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Your comment was "why is this relevant, we know Jordan is better than Kobe." Well.....EHL buys into Salley's comment because he doesn't agree with you on that conclusion.


It´s all fine and dandy, LB, but i realize you don´t seem so eager to complete our challenge... Cold feet?  

BTW, i know for a fact that EHL considers His Hairless to be the THE THIRD greatest player ever... and how can i blame him???


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> It´s all fine and dandy, LB, but i realize you don´t seem so eager to complete our challenge... Cold feet?
> ...


third greatest? the only player that you could possibly argue is greater than MJ is wilt.

nobody else. magic? no. bird? no. olajuwon? no. shaq? no. kobe? maybe 

MJ is the greatest player ever, and at the *very* worst, the 2nd best.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> You're right, I should prove it. I guess it's my fault for not taping it and converting it onto my computer for download. It was there, it was an interview. But it definitely is true (whether you'd like to believe it or not). I'll try to find a link for you.
> ...


This reply contains no argument.....it's 95% personal shots. Personal shots are fine.....when they follow decisive arguments.

Like another poster said....are you arguing Shaq is better than Jordan? Or Kobe for that matter?


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> third greatest? the only player that you could possibly argue is greater than MJ is wilt.
> 
> ...


"could possible argue"? That´s a little strong of an opinion regarding bball players, don´t you think?

Let´s just say no post is uncontroversial (sp?) in sports.

A few years ago no one would say Indurain wasn´t the best cyclist in the world...
To this day people will defend Pele (the all-mighty Edson Arantes do Nascimento) was not the greatest soccer player ever...
Ali? Frazier? Tyson? Sugar Ray?

So how could Jordan´s place in history be carved in stone? It´s not...

FYI, i regard Jordan as the thirs best basketball player ever... So what?


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> It´s all fine and dandy, LB, but i realize you don´t seem so eager to complete our challenge... Cold feet?
> ...


Oh no I believe I've picked the FAR superior team......I just need you to organize your team into who is playing where like mine. That way I can align them in the new thread.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> "could possible argue"? That´s a little strong of an opinion regarding bball players, don´t you think?
> ...


who besides wilt do you argue is better?

and please don't say magic johnson, because that is homerism at its worst. and people wonder why laker fans get such a bad name, heh.:sour:


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh no I believe I've picked the FAR superior team......I just need you to organize your team into who is playing where like mine. That way I can align them in the new thread.


Sorry, LB, but like you said, we should pick 15 players... and you are 2 short...

You pick'em, then we´ll make a starting 5 and a bench....

And i believe the Coach of the Year will be mine...


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> who besides wilt do you argue is better?
> 
> and please don't say magic johnson, because that is homerism at its worst. and people wonder why laker fans get such a bad name, heh.:sour:


FYI, i believe that Larry Joe Bird was the most *perfect* basketball player who ever graced the hardwood... But he just didn´t have the team and/or the health to rule the NBA...

As i've mentioned time and time again, *my* Top-3 is Wilt, then Magic, then Jordan...

You can call it "homerism". In fact, you can even say i´m delusional, but that´s the ranking i´m staying by...

FYI, i´ve seen the 80's Lakers and Celtics play. I´ve seen Bird and Magic at their upmost glory... and i stand for the fact that their game (well, Magic´s) was superior to Jordan´s.... 

But let´s not ruin the thread...


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> FYI, i believe that Larry Joe Bird was the most *perfect* basketball player who ever graced the hardwood... But he just didn´t have the team and/or the health to rule the NBA...
> ...


i'm just wondering why you think magic was a better player than MJ. care to offer some reasons? magic is arguably not even the greatest point guard ever, although i personally rank him as so.


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> Lew Alcindor, Shaquille O'neal, David Robinson
> Bill Russell, Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett, Bob McAdoo
> Larry Bird, Elgin Baylor, Kobe Bryant
> ...


That's 15 players


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> FYI, i believe that Larry Joe Bird was the most *perfect* basketball player who ever graced the hardwood... But he just didn´t have the team and/or the health to rule the NBA...
> ...


Paulo....LOL Bird played with 4 HALL OF FAMERS.....Parrish, McHale, Johnson and Walton......


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> That's 15 players


All right.

Care to make a poll?
I believe it would be important if we were to explain our picks. 
Maybe it would be for the best that the Poll rang something like "team A" or "Team B"... Then you would put up your team (Team A) and explain why you chose those players (specially curious about Kobe´s sellection  ) and i would do the same next (Team B) and let people vote...


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> i'm just wondering why you think magic was a better player than MJ. care to offer some reasons? magic is arguably not even the greatest point guard ever, although i personally rank him as so.


Too tired to go over this again, sprigg... Maybe there´s a thread around here you can look up, if you don´t mind...

Or i could get back at you tomorrow...


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> Paulo....LOL Bird played with 4 HALL OF FAMERS.....Parrish, McHale, Johnson and Walton......


Whatchyoutalkinaboutwillis?
I´m not talking about the Celtics' accomplishments, but Bird´s *form* as a basketball player.

1- He was one of the proudest players ever. If the Celtics lost a game where he got 40 points and 15 rebounds, he would think it was *his* fault, and not the other´s...

2- He had the greatest shot ever. I remember watching in awe how he could get his jumper over anyone who would get in his way (2, 3 players, didn´t matter). For years i tried to emulate his shot and came up short...

3- He overcame adversity. We all knew that Bird was slow and couldn´t jump. So he mastered the art of positional rebounding and developed the greatest basketball mind ever, so he could see plays develop even while he was waiting for the ball... 
His passing is unparralleled (Sp?) and only Magic could overcome him in that aspect of the game...

He read the floor like no one ever before - do you remember "the shot"? Well, alongside Dr. J´s baseline drive on the Lakers it´s the best masterpiece of basketball brilliance i can remember (all right, that and Magic throwing the ball down court after a defensive rebound in th eBlazers-Lakers playoff battle in 90-91)... Bird shot a long jumper, and the moment the ball left his fingers he knew it wasn´t going in... so he ran to collect the rebound... but it was a long rebound and when he caught the ball he was jumping out of bounds...
So what did Satan do? He collected the balll in mid-air, get it to his left hand and, in a single movement, scooped it right into the basket from at least 5 meters while collapsing into the audience...

4- He would never let the Celtic´s down... Even when his back was shot and he could barely walk and the Celtic´s brass intended to make the team Reggie´s team, he would not step aside.
He cramed his face hard into the Garden´s floor in a playoffs game (Pacers) only to come back from the bench and crave a dagger into the Pacer´s heart.
Till his body couldn´t take no more punishment, he would always yell "gimme the ball and get the **** out of the way" (witness his 40+ extravaganza against the Blazers in the Garden...)

When in the zone, Larry Joe Bird was the best basketball player i have ever seen...


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Paulo....LOL Bird played with 4 HALL OF FAMERS.....Parrish, McHale, Johnson and Walton......


he played with walton for 1 healthy season, and they had one of the great teams ever.

and dj's not in the hof yet (although he's been eligible for a while).

but you missed tiny & cowens as well (and pistol for a brief stint).

personally, i find it almost impossible to distinguish between magic and bird (this is for paulo, not lb) as players for their effectiveness on the court. i give no advantage to either.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Whatchyoutalkinaboutwillis?
> ...





> FYI, i believe that Larry Joe Bird was the most perfect basketball player who ever graced the hardwood... But he just didn´t have the *team* and/or the health to rule the NBA...


You said he didn't have the team......the number is now up to 6 hall of famers he played with. He had the team.


----------



## QBF (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> The reason you even care about arguing this is you feel that if you can somehow prove that Jordan would have been subjugated to Kobe's role....his production would have lowered to Kobe's level, and conversely if Kobe had had the freedom that MJ had in the 80s his production would rise to Jordan's level. Both WISHES are wrong. Jordan is FLAT out FAR SUPERIOR to Kobe as a basketball player, at the same age, in any given situation. Kobe will show you this year without Shaq that 32 PPG, 8 RPG, 8 APG, 3.16 SPG, 1.6 BPG and 53.8% FG IS NOT HAPPENING. Jordan with Shaq at center would have put up the same points, better assists, more steals, more blocks and the team would have run roughshot over the league.


This could not have been said any better.


----------



## QBF (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Let's see here, trust LB26matrixns over a former Lakers-Bulls dynasty player. Thinking...thinking...er, yeah, right. :uhoh:


So let me see if I understand: In a thread debating which duo would be better, Shaq and Kobe or Shaq and Michael Jordan, you are essentially arguing that both Shaq and Kobe are better than Michael Jordan, making Shaq and Kobe the two greatest players in the history of the NBA.

This is probably a good place for me to stop.


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> Like another poster said....are you arguing Shaq is better than Jordan? Or Kobe for that matter?


No, I'm not. Neither Shaq or Kobe is better than Jordan, especially Kobe. Shaq you could make an argument for, not Kobe. I don't know why you're getting that impression. 



> BTW, i know for a fact that EHL considers His Hairless to be the THE THIRD greatest player ever... and how can i blame him???


Not exactly Paulo, I consider Jordan top 5 all time, and arguably the greatest player ever. Only reason I never get into those types of arguments (Jordan=GOAT arguments) is because I never saw enough of either Wilt or Russell's careers to say for sure. As far as the last 20 years are concerned, I'm confident in arguing that Jordan is #1, with Magic trailing a bit behind and Kareem and (eventually) Shaq a bit further. Yeah, I think Shaq was greater than Bird. 



> This could not have been said any better.


If Kobe had anything to do with anything I had said there, it would have made sense. Since I didn't even mention Kobe, it's a pretty straight forward case of acute paranoia (obviously, an Internet diagnosis ).



> So let me see if I understand: In a thread debating which duo would be better, Shaq and Kobe or Shaq and Michael Jordan, you are essentially arguing that both Shaq and Kobe are better than Michael Jordan, making Shaq and Kobe the two greatest players in the history of the NBA.


No, when did I say Kobe was better than Jordan? I said I would take a former Lakers/Bulls' dynasty player (Sal) opinion more seriously than LB's. Doesn't mean I agree with everything Sal said; that is, I do indeed think Kobe is better at certain things at 25 than Jordan was at 25. But that doesn't mean that Jordan wasn't overall noticeably superior to Kobe at the same age, which I believe is true. As far as I remember, Sal said Kobe at the same age was the better _player_, and that I don't agree with. But, for example, I agreed with Sal's assertion that Kobe was a better jump shooter than Jordan in his mid 20's. 

As far as Shaq is concerned, being the #1 option on the same team as Jordan doesn't mean you're the better overall player. It's just how Jackson would run the triangle, apparently. I have no doubt that Jackson believes Jordan was the superior player compared to Shaq. I believe the same.


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## Jordan4life_2004 (Jul 24, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> FYI, i believe that Larry Joe Bird was the most *perfect* basketball player who ever graced the hardwood... But he just didn´t have the team and/or the health to rule the NBA...
> ...



You lost all credibility with this post. Bird didn't have the team? Are you serious? Didn't they win 3 titles during the 80's? Didn't they go to the finals 5 or 6 times? Didn't Bird play with not one, but SIX hall of famers? As far as Bird being the perfect player. I guess you don't consider DEFENSE a vital part of the PERFECT player. Bird was flat out horrible defensively. I'm sure even he would tell you that. That's just 1 main difference between Bird and Mj.


----------



## QBF (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> No, when did I say Kobe was better than Jordan? I said I would take a former Lakers/Bulls' dynasty player (Sal) opinion more seriously than LB's. Doesn't mean I agree with everything Sal said; that is, I do indeed think Kobe is better at certain things at 25 than Jordan was at 25. But that doesn't mean that Jordan wasn't overall noticeably superior to Kobe at the same age, which I believe is true. As far as I remember, Sal said Kobe at the same age was the better _player_, and that I don't agree with. But, for example, I agreed with Sal's assertion that Kobe was a better jump shooter than Jordan in his mid 20's.
> 
> As far as Shaq is concerned, being the #1 option on the same team as Jordan doesn't mean you're the better overall player. It's just how Jackson would run the triangle, apparently. I have no doubt that Jackson believes Jordan was the superior player compared to Shaq. I believe the same.


Reasonable thinking requires that we accept the logical implications of our arguments. When you say that Shaq would be the #1 option on the same team as Michael Jordan, you are saying that Shaq is better than Jordan, whether you want to admit it or not. When you say that you trust John Salley's opinion over LB's, and Salley says Kobe is better than Jordan at the same age while LB says the opposite, you are saying that Kobe is better than MJ, whether you want to admit it or not. When you say that Shaq and Kobe are better than MJ, you are saying that they are the two greatest players in the history of the NBA, whether you want it to admit it or not.

If you do not agree with these conclusions, then you have no choice but to rescind your previous arguments and admit the following:

(1) Jordan would be the first option on any team with Shaq.

(2) LB's opinion on this is more trusted than John Salley's.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jordan4life_2004</b>!
> 
> As far as Bird being the perfect player. I guess you don't consider DEFENSE a vital part of the PERFECT player. Bird was flat out horrible defensively. I'm sure even he would tell you that.


Charles Barkley once said, "As long as Bird is in the league, I can't be the worst defensive player."

Bird was a great player, but hardly the perfect player.


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>QBF</b>!
> 
> 
> Reasonable thinking requires that we accept the logical implications of our arguments. When you say that Shaq would be the #1 option on the same team as Michael Jordan, you are saying that Shaq is better than Jordan, whether you want to admit it or not.


When did I say I was of the opinion that Shaq would be the #1 option on a team with Jordan? I said that's what Jackson said in an interview on FSN. This is not my opinion, it is Phil Jackson's. Quite frankly, it's such a complicated decision to make, I'd have to go through some game tape to make up my mind (it has been years since I've watched a prime Jordan, it would be a fun exercise).

And whether you'd like to admit it or not, the best player is not always the first option on a basketball team. Different teams and scenarios call for different strategies. I wish Jackson went into his reasoning, but he didn't say more than "As a rule, you should build your team around a dominant big man". 



> When you say that you trust John Salley's opinion over LB's, and Salley says Kobe is better than Jordan at the same age while LB says the opposite, you are saying that Kobe is better than MJ, whether you want to admit it or not.


Uh, what in the? Did you even read what I wrote? I said I agreed with certain things Salley said. It's not my fault you (or anyone else) made assumptions based on a single sentence. I willingly elaborated on what parts of Sal's opinion I believed to be true, to clear up any confusion. LB was saying there was absolutely no comparison between Kobe and Jordan, an opinion in a whole opposite spectrum. 



> When you say that Shaq and Kobe are better than MJ


Except that I'm not. :uhoh:



> you are saying that they are the two greatest players in the history of the NBA, whether you want it to admit it or not.


That's assuming you believe that everyone believes Jordan is the unequivocal GOAT. Of course, that's not even close to being the case. Jordan's case for GOAT is probably about as strong as any other player, hardly makes him the undeniable GOAT.



> If you do not agree with these conclusions, then you have no choice but to rescind your previous arguments and admit the following:


Why should I? You made assumptions about my previous statements, how's that my fault? You should just ask me to elaborate if you are all that interested instead of telling me to rescind statements you believed to mean something they never ever directly stated.



> (1) Jordan would be the first option on any team with Shaq.


Well sure, except according to Phil Jackson.  



> (2) LB's opinion on this is more trusted than John Salley's.


Eh, no.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Charles Barkley once said, "As long as Bird is in the league, I can't be the worst defensive player."
> ...


he said that late in bird's career, when he had back problems and was a shell of his former self. and barkley's hardly an authority as far as taking his quips seriously. the quote says absolutely nothing about bird's ability as a defender in his prime, hell - it doesn't even say much about his ability at the time.

bird at his best was a pretty good defender, and made 3 2nd team all-defensive teams.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

and lets put some context around the 6 hof'ers bird played with:

2 were there before he got there (tiny and cowens) - they happened to win a whopping 29 games the year before bird (they won 61 when bird got there). both had their best days well behind them. hof'er #3 (pistol) played 43 games with bird before retiring, bird's first year with the celts.

hof'er #4 (walton) played 1 season with bird, as a reserve, on one of the greatest teams of all-time.

#5 (mchale) was really in his prime from '85 to about '90, although injuries started taking their toll in '88.

#6 was parish.

bird had pieces around him, but i wanted to put the 6 hof'ers in context. i don't like how #'s of hof'ers get thrown around as if it says anything without the right context.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Jordan4life_2004</b>!
> You lost all credibility with this post.


Didn´t know i had any left... 



> Bird didn't have the team? Are you serious? Didn't they win 3 titles during the 80's? Didn't they go to the finals 5 or 6 times?


Nope. Bird didn´t had the team to dominate the league like the old Celtics and the 90's Bulls.
In that time, no team was that superior to the others. Even the Lakers, who went to 9 Finals (i think) could only win 5 times in a 12 year span...
Bird played with great players, but how many of them were, as a Celtic, 1st or 2nd team NBA? 



> Didn't Bird play with not one, but SIX hall of famers?


Walton wasn´t a HOF for his days in Boston (although he won the 6th man award);
D.J was a good role-player and defender and not much else;
Pistol Pete?
Tiny Archibal in his last legs? (80-81 2nd team)
Dave Cowens´final season?

Bird played with McHale, who was a great player, and Parish, who was a 2nd teamer once, a 3rd teamer once and arguably NOT one of the top-5 centers in the (whole) 80's. 



> As far as Bird being the perfect player. I guess you don't consider DEFENSE a vital part of the PERFECT player. Bird was flat out horrible defensively. I'm sure even he would tell you that. That's just 1 main difference between Bird and Mj.


Nope. Bird´s defense was underrated.
Like kflo said, he was 2nd team all-defense 3 times... that´s not bad at all... (and don´t forget 1556 steals for his career).


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>QBF</b>!
> 
> (1) Jordan would be the first option on any team with Shaq.


believing that shaq or kareem or bernard king  or wilt would have been the first option over jordan offensively in certain circumstances if they were to go back in time without the benefit of foresight doesn't mean you think any were better than jordan. it means that it's possible that that's the direction the coach may have gone in at that time. it means that it may have been better for the team to use them as the first option, to run the offense through them. all shot a higher % than jordan, all created mismatches, and all scored a ton of points. that doesn't mean jordan wouldn't have scored a ton of points, and wouldn't have proven greatness.

it's possible tmac would still be the 2nd option on toronto with carter. it's possible kobe will prove to be better or on par with shaq. 

mj and shaq, they both would have scored alot. it's highly possible that they would have run the offense through shaq, and had shaq, and his 58+ fg% as the first option for a good shot. and it's possible that even in that circumstance, jordan still shines.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> personally, i find it almost impossible to distinguish between magic and bird (this is for paulo, not lb) as players for their effectiveness on the court. i give no advantage to either.


I have a reaaally hard time comparing those two players also, kflo.
Magic won more, and maybe that´s the fact that makes me put him ahead of Bird.

Off course it wasn´t Bird´s fault that his back gave up on him in the last 3-4 years of his career, and he could have won a ring or two if that didn´t happen, but there´s nothing can be done about that.

(Oh yeah, and Magic kicked Bird´s *** in College  )

Like i´ve said before, i consider a prime Bird the perfect basketball player.
However, he just didn´t have the kind of success Magic had... Maybe Magic achieved more with less (basketball habillity, i mean)... maybe i´m being a little biased...i don´t know...


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> I have a reaaally hard time comparing those two players also, kflo.
> ...


magic accomplished more (won more), but i'd say he had the superior pieces around him as well (although it's close). certainly in college. in the pros, imo, as well (overall).

i just can't separate the 2. both different but so many similarities as well.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> and barkley's hardly an authority as far as taking his quips seriously. the quote says absolutely nothing about bird's ability as a defender in his prime, hell - it doesn't even say much about his ability at the time.


The point is not whether Barkley was literally correct. The very fact that Barkley made that quip gives some sense of how Bird was perceived. I don't think Barkley would have said, "As long as Michael Cooper is in the league, I won't be the worst defender."

Such a quip only works with a poor defender. Truly the worst? Maybe not.

And I disagree with you that Bird was "pretty good" at defense in his prime. Maybe as a team defender, but as an individual defender, he was a seive.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> The point is not whether Barkley was literally correct. The very fact that Barkley made that quip gives some sense of how Bird was perceived. I don't think Barkley would have said, "As long as Michael Cooper is in the league, I won't be the worst defender."
> ...


barkley made a joke at bird's expense. big deal. barkley was a clown, and he singled out the slow, old, slow white guy with the bad back. it lends little credence to bird's ability in his prime. 

you point out how barkley's comments illustrate how he was perceived as a defender yet give no credibility to all-defensive teams?

i don't think bird was a great on-ball defender. i don't think he was a sieve or a glaring weakness either. he was excellent as a team defender, and servicable on-ball. overall, he was above-average, at his peak. barkley's quip notwithstanding.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> you point out how barkley's comments illustrate how he was perceived as a defender yet give no credibility to all-defensive teams?


Considering the standards of defense in the '80s, I'm not sure I put a lot of credence in his second-team selections. I also feel politics are often played with such awards. The sum is, such awards are nice, but I don't build my whole opinion around them.



> i don't think bird was a great on-ball defender. i don't think he was a sieve or a glaring weakness either. he was excellent as a team defender, and servicable on-ball. overall, he was above-average, at his peak. barkley's quip notwithstanding.


Barkley's quip was simply anecdotal, not meant to be a powerful argument. I think you overrate both his man defense and his team defense. He was servicable as a team defender and easily blown past in man defense. If he played off a step or two, he simply gave up one open jumper after another.

I don't doubt that he tried and he made good decisions, which is why his team defense was superior to his individual defense, but he simply wasn't that good at stopping people.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Considering the standards of defense in the '80s, I'm not sure I put a lot of credence in his second-team selections. I also feel politics are often played with such awards. The sum is, such awards are nice, but I don't build my whole opinion around them.
> ...


i just think you're underrating his quickness by alot. he was much quicker than people give him credit for, particularly earlier in his career. 

as anectdotal evidence, when he had his fight with dr. j, he had outscored him something like 36 - 6 through 3 quarters, when erving's frustration boiled over.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> as anectdotal evidence, when he had his fight with dr. j, he had outscored him something like 36 - 6 through 3 quarters, when erving's frustration boiled over.


The Celtics were a very good defensive team, for the era. They often limited other stars with their tough, bruising, help-oriented defense. That same bruising (some might say "dirty") style often caused extreme frustration and sometimes disputes in opposing stars.

I severely doubt Bird was locked on J man-on-man and shut him down. I could easily believe that Bird played Erving physically and tight, letting teammates smother him when he went past Bird.

I'm not arguing Bird was useless on defense. He had the tough, no-nonsense mindset to be a worthwhile, physical part in the Celtics' help defense, and he benefited greatly from help defense himself.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

C- Chamberlain; C/PF- Olajuwon;
PF- Duncan; PF- McHale; PF/SF- Barkley;
SF- Pippen; SF/SG- Havlicek SF/PF- Rodman; SF/SG- Barry
SG- West; SG/SF- Gervin; SG- Petrovic 
PG/SG/SF/PF/C  Magic; PG- Zeke; PG- GP


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> C- Chamberlain; C/PF- Olajuwon;
> PF- Duncan; PF- McHale; PF/SF- Barkley;
> SF- Pippen; SF/SG- Havlicek SF/PF- Rodman; SF/SG- Barry
> ...


Wow, you're starting Duncan over Olajuwon? That's interesting since most would consider Olajuwon the superior defender and offensive player.

I'd start Olajuwon at PF and slide Duncan to backup center.

Just my opinion. Interesting exercise, drafting all-time teams.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> Wow, you're starting Duncan over Olajuwon? That's interesting since most would consider Olajuwon the superior defender and offensive player.
> 
> ...


I have some doubts (maybe unjustified) that Hakeem could play as efectively the 4, and even if he could co-exist with Wilt. 

Nevertheless, that wasn´t my starting team, but my roster, wich i would adapt facing the opponents...
In choosing my team i wasn't picking the best players available, but molding my choices to how i perceived could work the best if that team was to take the floor.

That´s the reason i picked Pippen (thus allowing LB to pick Bird): i needed for my team a guy who could defend the 1-to-3 positions and still be a vital part of the ofense...

I consider Hakeem better than Duncan, as a player. But at the 4 i wanted a good rebounder, solid defender (not much ofense needed from the PF when Wilt is playing), someone who wouldn´t demand the ball and would gladly accept the role of not being the first scoring option. I don´t know if Hakeem would accept that role...


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