# Antoine Walker (split off from the "Jay Williams" thread)



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Bremer is a much better defender.


That is true. 



> The guys from Chicago think Jay Williams would be a "great fit" in Boston. We've seen this guy play, remember? He doesn't defend and his big plays at the end of games usually consist of missed free throws. QUOTE]
> Jay Williams had problems defensively like any rookie, but there's no reason why that won't improve as he learns to cheat on defense. He certainly has the lateral quickness to be an excellent press defender. And as far as his missed free throws, like i said, his shot was coming around noticably by the end of the season. Even if he was having an off shooting night, he still had the confidence and poise to knock down big three-pointers in the fourth quarter.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>CeLtZ in 04</b>!
> 
> 
> Big John- take care of this guy pLease, you aLwayz kno the right thing to sey, especiaLLy about the Last part...jeez........


No, I think the Bulls fans are absolutely right. With all of those great players--Curry, Chandler, Crawford, Fizer, Williams, Rose, etc. -- they are virtually certain to dethrone the Nets as Eastern conference champions next year. Antoine Walker would be no better than the 8th or 9th man on a talent-laden team like that. Their 30-52 record last year was just an accident, and I'm sure with Jay Williams leading the way they will be 50-32 next year.

I guess they are over here offering up Jay Williams because they feel sorry for us and are trying to help us out. Thanks guys.

And who wouldn't trade Antoine Walker even up for a great defender like Abdur-Rahim? It's not his fault that no team he has ever been on has won more than 35 games. We appreciate the thought, but we would not want to do anything to break up such a cohesive, unselfish group of players. Look at their roster: Glenn Robinson, Dan Dickau at the point (after Jason Terry leaves), Nazr Mohammed, Emmanual Davis, Dion Glover, Darvin Ham. What's not to like? The Hawks, along with the Bulls, are one of the best kept secrets in the NBA.

Say, how about offering Jay Williams to Cleveland even up for Darius Miles? It works under the cap, and you would kill two birds with one stone.


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## PatBateman (May 26, 2003)

All of this talk about trading with the Bulls is ridiculous. They have no players with proven ability aside from Fizer(so/so) and Rose. I guess we could try trading EWill for one of those guys, but I think he is a big part of the team now and many C's would be very disappointed to see him go.



What about the possibility of getting Jamison as someone mentioned?


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> I'll give you Curry. Chandler- maybe. Crawford- maybe. But Fizer? Come on, you honestly wouldn't pull the trigger on a Walker/Fizer deal? Walker's a much better player. And Rose is not the team player Walker is either, nor is he as well-rounded.


The fact that I would not do a Fizer for Walker deal has nothing to do with how good Fizer is- obviuosly Walker is a "better" player in the sense that he has more skill and is a bigger star. The reason I wouldn't do the deal is because Fizer is a smart player who knows his role, shoots a high %, and is exaclty what the Bulls need. Walker, on the other, I consider to be a bad-decision maker who would eat up too many shots on a young team that has enough scorers already. That's all I meant.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> What about the possibility of getting Jamison as someone mentioned?


The deal was for the Bulls to get Jameson to fill their void at small forward. No one was discussing the possibility of the Celtics trading for him.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> No, I think the Bulls fans are absolutely right. With all of those great players--Curry, Chandler, Crawford, Fizer, Williams, Rose, etc. -- they are virtually certain to dethrone the Nets as Eastern conference champions next year. Antoine Walker would be no better than the 8th or 9th man on a talent-laden team like that. Their 30-52 record last year was just an accident, and I'm sure with Jay Williams leading the way they will be 50-32 next year.


I never said that any of those guys were "great players"- I said that I wouldn't trade them for Walker. Big difference. The Bulls are a volatile young team with a lot of scorers who are not yet good decision-makers, and Walker would compound this problem. I feel I was misunderstood here- sorry if I came off as a "homer". 



> I guess they are over here offering up Jay Williams because they feel sorry for us and are trying to help us out. Thanks guys.


I don't believe that anyone offfered Jay Williams- all I said was that I'd like to see him in a place like Boston where he could really grow as a player.



> And who wouldn't trade Antoine Walker even up for a great defender like Abdur-Rahim? It's not his fault that no team he has ever been on has won more than 35 games. We appreciate the thought, but we would not want to do anything to break up such a cohesive, unselfish group of players. Look at their roster: Glenn Robinson, Dan Dickau at the point (after Jason Terry leaves), Nazr Mohammed, Emmanual Davis, Dion Glover, Darvin Ham. What's not to like? The Hawks, along with the Bulls, are one of the best kept secrets in the NBA.


And Antoine Walker is a great defender too? 
Seriously though, in case you haven't noticed, the Celts have no big men. Walker is technically a PF, but he plays small, and is a poor fit, IMO, for a team that already has one of the best perimeter threats in the league in Paul Pierce. Rahim may be soft and a poor defender (so is Walker), but he is a legitimate post presence that gives you 20 and 10 every night and could really help stretch defenses, thus clearing more space for Paulie to do his thang. Rahim for Walker would be an excellent move for the Celtics, IMO.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> I dunno if I wud even do that, but we are obviousLy arguing w/ a BuLLS fan here, no point in continuing........


Now, Celtzin04, is that really necessary? We're just having a debate here, no need to get insulting about it. It's no big deal, but let's try to keep the discussion on basketball from now on, ok?:yes:


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> And Antoine Walker is a great defender too?
> Seriously though, in case you haven't noticed, the Celts have no big men. Walker is technically a PF, but he plays small, and is a poor fit, IMO, for a team that already has one of the best perimeter threats in the league in Paul Pierce. Rahim may be soft and a poor defender (so is Walker), but he is a legitimate post presence that gives you 20 and 10 every night and could really help stretch defenses, thus clearing more space for Paulie to do his thang. Rahim for Walker would be an excellent move for the Celtics, IMO.


1. Walker is an excellent defender. Ask Jermaine O'Neal. Where did you get the idea that he is a bad defender? For one thing, he may have the best pair of hands in the league. But yes, he is a finesse player. and he plays too many minutes. He ran out of gas against NJ.

2. Yes we absolutely have noticed that the Celts have no big men. Their lack of rebounding is their No. 1 problem. Part of that is because Walker spends to much time on the perimeter, but that is what he is being asked to do.

3. Pierce "does his thing" because Walker gets him the ball. Antoine's passing ability is huge for the Celtics. Abdur-Rahim brings none of that to the table. He doesn't know how to play the game. Antoine does. This idea that Antoine is a selfish player just isn't true.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Walker is an excellent defender. Ask Jermaine O'Neal. Where did you get the idea that he is a bad defender? For one thing, he may have the best pair of hands in the league. But yes, he is a finesse player. and he plays too many minutes. He ran out of gas against NJ.


Where do I get the idea that he's a bad defender? From the fact that he had trouble slowing down Marcus Fizer the past few times the Bulls came to town. He did a good job on O'Neal- you're right about that- but everybody plays better D in the playoffs. Walker was playing playoff-intensity D on Jermaine- he can't be expected to do that all time. Most of the time, he is just a player that is too slow to check most SF's and not quite big enough to stick with the best Pf's.



> Yes we absolutely have noticed that the Celts have no big men. Their lack of rebounding is their No. 1 problem. Part of that is because Walker spends to much time on the perimeter, but that is what he is being asked to do.


He is being asked to stay on the perimeter because he is more effective in most matchups asa perimeter player. Rahim is most effective as a post player, so trading for him would solve this problem.



> Pierce "does his thing" because Walker gets him the ball. Antoine's passing ability is huge for the Celtics. Abdur-Rahim brings none of that to the table. He doesn't know how to play the game. Antoine does. This idea that Antoine is a selfish player just isn't true.


I never said that 'Toine was selfish- I said that he is a poor decision-maker, and i was referring to the number of threes that he puts up and the % of the time that he makes them. Yes Walker is a good passer- a better passer than Reefer- but the plusses of trading for Rahim, IMO, outweigh the minuses. 
And anyway, if Bremer is such a good pg, shouldn't he be the one getting Pierce the ball?


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## NE sportsfan (Jun 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> 
> I never said that 'Toine was selfish- I said that he is a poor decision-maker, and i was referring to the number of threes that he puts up and the % of the time that he makes them. Yes Walker is a good passer- a better passer than Reefer- but the plusses of trading for Rahim, IMO, outweigh the minuses.
> And anyway, if Bremer is such a good pg, shouldn't he be the one getting Pierce the ball?


putting up all those threes for the most part isnt bad decision making. it is what he is asked to do. it's OB's system, as of right now that is the celtic offense. and that offense is being used because of the lack of a post presence. but trading walker for rahim is just stupid.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> putting up all those threes for the most part isnt bad decision making. it is what he is asked to do. it's OB's system, as of right now that is the celtic offense. and that offense is being used because of the lack of a post presence. but trading walker for rahim is just stupid.


I know that it's OB's system, but the reason that Walker, in particular, is asked to shoot threes is the fact that in most matchups he is more effective as a perimeter shooter. You think OB would stick Rahim out on the three point line? No, he'd leave him in the post, because that is where Rahim is most effective. This would not only help the rebounding problem and decrease Boston's overreliance on the three-ball, it would stretch the defenses, giving the guards more room. So how would it be "dumb" to trade Walker for Rahim?


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## NE sportsfan (Jun 2, 2003)

rahim wouldnt be put at the 3 point line because he cant play out there. walker can, and he can also play inside. plus the leadership thatwalker brings to the celtics is very important, and rahim doesnt bring anywhere near that leadership, if he brings any. if the celts did that trade i dobt theyd make the playoffs next year.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> So how would it be "dumb" to trade Walker for Rahim?


Because it is usually dumb to trade a really good player for one that isn't so good. I don't think I can explain it any more clearly than that.


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## NE sportsfan (Jun 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> Because it is usually dumb to trade a really good player for one that isn't so good. I don't think I can explain it any more clearly than that.


thank you, somehow i wasnt able to put it so well.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> rahim wouldnt be put at the 3 point line because he cant play out there. walker can, and he can also play inside. plus the leadership thatwalker brings to the celtics is very important, and rahim doesnt bring anywhere near that leadership, if he brings any. if the celts did that trade i dobt theyd make the playoffs next year.


Walker is only effective in the post in certain matchups. He is not that big or athletic for a 4, so he gets shut down in the post against particularly big/strong/athletic 4's. That's why he is forced to play on the perimeter so much- if he couldn't shoot the three, he would not even be a starter in this league because he is far from a devestating post presence. As far as leadership, you already have one of the best leaders in the league in Paul Pierce. Shareef would fix so many holes for the Celts. If the Celts made this deal, I would be willing to bet that it would make them a better team.:yes: 



> Because it is usually dumb to trade a really good player for one that isn't so good. I don't think I can explain it any more clearly than that.


Reef puts up 20, 9 and 3. Walker puts up 20, 7 and 4. How is Walker "really good" and Rahim "not so good"?


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> Reef puts up 20, 9 and 3. Walker puts up 20, 7 and 4. How is Walker "really good" and Rahim "not so good"?


Well, just watch them play. One of them wins and the other doesn't.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Well, just watch them play. One of them wins and the other doesn't.


Is it Shareef's fault that he's never been on a good team with a good coach? Is it to Walker's credit that he plays alongside one of the two best swing players in the league (I consider Pierce to be better than McGrady), under an excellent coach who gets the most out of his players?

Listen, I'm not saying that Walker isn't good- just that I think this trade would really benefit the Celts.


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## Cochise (Apr 13, 2003)

Paul Pierce is the real winner on that team, Walker is just trying to keep up. 

Please, Jay Williams will run circles around Bremer. And to clear things up with the original point of the thread, unless we get the PERFECT small forward (Carmelo) in exchange for Jay, the Bulls organization is more than willing to play a Jay and Jamal backcourt -- who, together, proved at the end of the season that they could out-play the backcourts of teams heading for the playoffs.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Well, this thread has gone rediculously off topic, so I think I'm going to attempt to address them all:

*1. Jay Williams vs. JR Bremmer: * Jay Williams will be better. Incase Celtic fans didn't notice, Bremmer couldn't unseat Tony Delk as the starter at point this season. Bremmer is far from an all-star. He's a decent role player who is good for hitting a three or two to get us back in the game. I see Steve Kerr/BJ Armstrong (with out the rings) at best. JayWill though was a rookie PG with tons of pressure on him to be the PG and the man for that team. I know you all are saying, "Bremmer was a rookie PG too, look at what he did." Ok, Bremmer was a rookie PG on a team where Antoine and Pierce bring the ball up as much, if not more, than the point guards. And, because Bremmer started the season as the twelth man, he had no pressure on him to get on the court, let alone score or do anything at all. On the other hand, Williams was supposed to be an all-star instantly, which is too much pressure for a rookie, particularly when you expect him to play the point. Also, he was the point guard on a team of guys that are still trying to figure out how to play the game. Furthermore, Chicago already had a point guard who they were enamored with in Jamal Crawford. Considering all of this, the question begs to be asked, if you're going to set a guy up to fail like that, why take that guy?

*2. Antoine Walker:* I love it when people who have no clue of how Walker plays beyond what they saw in the New Jersey series talk about trades we should do for him. Antoine Walker is the captain, heart, and soul of this team. What he contributes to this team off the court is worth far more than what he gives them on it. Does Antoine shoot more threes than he should? Yes. Is that his fault? No. When you have shooting abilities and you coach says shoot as much as you want and you proceed to do just that, why should you take heat for it? Walker is the only legit leader this team has under contract for next season. I know Pierce is a captain too, but I don't see that same leadership capabilities coming from Pierce. Another thing we're forgetting is that Walker was playing injured for most of the second half of the season. He hurt himself in Philly and came back before he was healthy. Then he stopped wearing the knee brace before he should have. This off season he's going to work on taking off some of the extra pounds he had on him and gaining muscle. A sculpted Antoine at 6'9" and 245 will be among the league's top power forwards because he drives from the permiter to well for big slow PFs to guard and he's too good in the post for soft PFs to have a shot against. Hopefully O'Brien will catch a glimpse of game film from the Indy series, where Antoine spent most of the time in the post, and see how dominate the offense was and tell Antoine to play there next season.

*3. Trading Antoine for Fizer, Rose, or Rahim:* I'm not entirely sure what's worse about this, the fact that someone thinks Fizer, Rose, or Rahim would help the Celtics more than Antoine or the fact that someone thinks Ainge (even Wallace) would be dumb enough to pull the trigger on a deal like that. Ever see Rahim play in a big game? Ever see him play on a good team? He's soft. The fact that the Hawks weren't a playoff team (In the EAST no less) is a joke. I wouldn't want any of those guys. Fizer for Walker is a joke, I'm not sure why anyone would acknowledge that with a response beyond, "Hahahahahahaha" or :laugh:. And Rose? What would we do with Rose? Play Eric Williams at PF? Waltah? Did you consider the Celtics roster when you came up with that one? Also, Rose is not a good team player. He's not a good point guard. He's a small forward, which we don't particularly need. And did anyone compare these guys to Antoine statiscally? Neither did I, but I'm willing to be that they're not doing as well as Antoine and at that money, they don't come close to offering the leadership that Antoine provides which makes No. 8 far more valuable than anyone we could possibly get for him. Also, why break up Pierce and Walker? There aren't many (if any) tandems in the NBA I'd rather have than Pierce and Walker. Shaq and Kobe are one with TMac and a healthy Hill are the other. In that first group, Kobe doesn't know that he's not the star and in the second group, Hill is never healthy. In Pierce and Walker you have two young perenial all-stars who haven't yet reached the 27-32 year-old age range that is normally a players prime. Both guys know that Pierce is the star, but neither is the type to wine and moan when the other takes more of the shots. And if Walker being better than those three, those three not fitting with this team, and Pierce and Walker being an established great NBA duo wasn't enough, is there a forward in the NBA you'd rather have with the ball in his hands when you're down by one at the end of the fourth? 

*4. People wanting to unload their crap on Boston:* Why not? We took Vinny Baker and were excited about it, weren't we? Why shouldn't we be willing to take a try on Darius Miles and Sagana Diop, or Quinten Richardson, or Morris Peterson, or Ruben Patterson (_Ruben Patterson?_)? Untill we make a good deal, we're going to have to deal with this crap. I'd contend that getting Mark Blount back is a good deal as I see him forcing Battie to the bench (sooner rather than later), but he's not exactly star material so most won't see that.

*5. People having us make dumb picks in this draft:* Why not? Aren't we the team that went for Joe Johnson, Kedrick Brown, and Joe Forte (a Trot Nixon like 0 for 3 performance right there). We took Acie Earl and Eric Montross too. By the way, I'm pretty sure its been over a decade since a second round draft pick that we made actually played for us, though from what I hear, Darius Songalia is going to end that streak. If my memory serves me right, its been a while since we actually made a good pick that didn't involve us lucking into it (Pierce) or trading up for it (Walker). Again, lets see the Celtics have a good draft, then the crap will stop.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

good post agoo. But I disagree with one thing. You said "and, because Bremmer started the season as the twelth man, he had no pressure on him to get on the court, let alone score or do anything at all."

Jay Williams had three years of guaranteed money at over $3 M per year. He was set for life before he ever stepped on the court. Bremer had nothing. If he didn't perform, he was going to the CBA or the NDBL for $400 a week or going back home to get a real job. Believe me, Bremer was the one with the pressure on him, not Williams.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

JayWill walks into Chicago and says to himself, "This is the place that had Jordan and now they expect me to be _that_ guy. Oh, and there's Jamall Crawford who they all love and is being put on the bench so I can play. I better do well, or else they'll hate me and I'll be stuck here for four years."

Bremmer walks into Boston (after making the team) and says, "I'm the twelth man on a team with no IR and they absolutely love me here. The team shoots threes constantly. I shoot threes well. Everyone is shocked I'm on the team so if I do anything right I'm set for the year and if I suck, no one is going to notice. Of course, should I thuroughly suck, there's always Denver. Hey, it worked for Wayne Turner."

Perhaps that's just my thought process, but I don't really see much pressure on Bremmer after the Summer League. Bremmer, being an athlete, doesn't impress me as the settling type, so he'd probably want to perform, but if he doesn't, he's got great season tickets.


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## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, just watch them play. One of them wins and the other doesn't.



Thank you Big John........


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*I'm Giving this Post a 5!*



> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> No, I think the Bulls fans are absolutely right. With all of those great players--Curry, Chandler, Crawford, Fizer, Williams, Rose, etc. -- they are virtually certain to dethrone the Nets as Eastern conference champions next year. Antoine Walker would be no better than the 8th or 9th man on a talent-laden team like that. Their 30-52 record last year was just an accident, and I'm sure with Jay Williams leading the way they will be 50-32 next year.
> ...


John, you are the MAN, my friend! And yes, anyone who thinks Antoine is a poor defender wasn't paying attention in the playoffs, or the regular season, for that matter. Antoine showed good leadership and played his butt off defensively. If he worked more on good decisions on offense and free throws, and if we could play him 37 minutes a game instead of 42, I mean, WOW! ***no personal insults- thanks-Louie*** As for Celtics-Cavs, I don't want any of their crappy players, but the deal would also involve someone like EW, whom we cannot and should not trade. As for Jay Williams, I saw some quickness and penetration in the two games Chicago waxed us, and I think that is much more valuable than being able to spot up and shoot 25-footers. I love Bremer, and I hope you're right about his improvement. GO CELTICS!!!


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> 1. Jay Williams vs. JR Bremmer: Jay Williams will be better. Incase Celtic fans didn't notice, Bremmer couldn't unseat Tony Delk as the starter at point this season. Bremmer is far from an all-star. He's a decent role player who is good for hitting a three or two to get us back in the game. I see Steve Kerr/BJ Armstrong (with out the rings) at best. JayWill though was a rookie PG with tons of pressure on him to be the PG and the man for that team. I know you all are saying, "Bremmer was a rookie PG too, look at what he did." Ok, Bremmer was a rookie PG on a team where Antoine and Pierce bring the ball up as much, if not more, than the point guards. And, because Bremmer started the season as the twelth man, he had no pressure on him to get on the court, let alone score or do anything at all. On the other hand, Williams was supposed to be an all-star instantly, which is too much pressure for a rookie, particularly when you expect him to play the point. Also, he was the point guard on a team of guys that are still trying to figure out how to play the game. Furthermore, Chicago already had a point guard who they were enamored with in Jamal Crawford. Considering all of this, the question begs to be asked, if you're going to set a guy up to fail like that, why take that guy?


Thank you- that's all I was trying to say before the Celts fans jumped all over me.  



> 2. Antoine Walker: I love it when people who have no clue of how Walker plays beyond what they saw in the New Jersey series talk about trades we should do for him. Antoine Walker is the captain, heart, and soul of this team. What he contributes to this team off the court is worth far more than what he gives them on it. Does Antoine shoot more threes than he should? Yes. Is that his fault? No. When you have shooting abilities and you coach says shoot as much as you want and you proceed to do just that, why should you take heat for it? Walker is the only legit leader this team has under contract for next season. I know Pierce is a captain too, but I don't see that same leadership capabilities coming from Pierce. Another thing we're forgetting is that Walker was playing injured for most of the second half of the season. He hurt himself in Philly and came back before he was healthy. Then he stopped wearing the knee brace before he should have. This off season he's going to work on taking off some of the extra pounds he had on him and gaining muscle. A sculpted Antoine at 6'9" and 245 will be among the league's top power forwards because he drives from the permiter to well for big slow PFs to guard and he's too good in the post for soft PFs to have a shot against. Hopefully O'Brien will catch a glimpse of game film from the Indy series, where Antoine spent most of the time in the post, and see how dominate the offense was and tell Antoine to play there next season.


This is another great post, but I have to disagree with you on a few points. First off, I personally have followed the Celtics and Walker a lot more than you give me credit for- I had league pass for much of this season, and I followed the Celtics, Nets, Kings and Lakers more than any other teams because I considered them to be the teams that would make it to the conference Finals. I also am a big Pierce fan, so I enjoy watching this team. I understand that Walker is a good leader- I was there watching when he made that inspirational speech to the Celtic players in last year's playoffs against the Nets that led to the biggest comeback in the history of the playoffs. I know what kind of leader he is, but the fact, IMO, is that his style of play is not a good fit for this team. I believe that the Celtics need a true post player (one that _stays_ in post) in order to stretch the defense, help with the rebounding problem (this is something that is REALLY hurts this team), and clear more space for the guards to operate. I watched the Indiana series, and you're right- Walker played very well. But I've seen him have problems scoring in the post against taller oponnents- he is not a true post player. His outside shooting makes him incredibly versatile, but that is not what the Celtics need- they need an old-fashioned, low-post scoring option who's not gonna get pushed out to the perimeter by the league's taller 4's. It is true that the Celtics would lose some leadership, but I think that would be outweighed by all the problems this deal would solve. And anyway, Pierce may not be the vocal leader that Walker is, but he does an excellent job of leading by example- a quality that is much more rare and valuable to the team. Pierce drives the team forward with his confidence to knock down big shots and desire. If the main reason why you guys are hanging on to Walker is his inspirational speaches and vocal leadership, why don't you just acquire Matten Cleaves from the Kings? He could be had for next to nothing.



> 3. Trading Antoine for Fizer, Rose, or Rahim: I'm not entirely sure what's worse about this, the fact that someone thinks Fizer, Rose, or Rahim would help the Celtics more than Antoine or the fact that someone thinks Ainge (even Wallace) would be dumb enough to pull the trigger on a deal like that. Ever see Rahim play in a big game? Ever see him play on a good team? He's soft. The fact that the Hawks weren't a playoff team (In the EAST no less) is a joke. I wouldn't want any of those guys. Fizer for Walker is a joke, I'm not sure why anyone would acknowledge that with a response beyond, "Hahahahahahaha" or . And Rose? What would we do with Rose? Play Eric Williams at PF? Waltah? Did you consider the Celtics roster when you came up with that one? Also, Rose is not a good team player. He's not a good point guard. He's a small forward, which we don't particularly need. And did anyone compare these guys to Antoine statiscally? Neither did I, but I'm willing to be that they're not doing as well as Antoine and at that money, they don't come close to offering the leadership that Antoine provides which makes No. 8 far more valuable than anyone we could possibly get for him. Also, why break up Pierce and Walker? There aren't many (if any) tandems in the NBA I'd rather have than Pierce and Walker. Shaq and Kobe are one with TMac and a healthy Hill are the other. In that first group, Kobe doesn't know that he's not the star and in the second group, Hill is never healthy. In Pierce and Walker you have two young perenial all-stars who haven't yet reached the 27-32 year-old age range that is normally a players prime. Both guys know that Pierce is the star, but neither is the type to wine and moan when the other takes more of the shots. And if Walker being better than those three, those three not fitting with this team, and Pierce and Walker being an established great NBA duo wasn't enough, is there a forward in the NBA you'd rather have with the ball in his hands when you're down by one at the end of the fourth?


Ok, I feel that there is something I should clear up here- *nobody ever proposed trading Walker for Fizer or for Rose*. That has a huge bearing on this argument- I never suggested that the Celtics should trade Walker for Fizer or Rose, because that move would make no sense for them and make them a much worse team. What I said was that I would not trade Fizer or Rose for Walker from the Bulls perspective, and I gave the following explanation:


> The Bulls are a volatile young team with a lot of scorers who are not yet good decision-makers, and Walker would compound this problem. The fact that I would not do a Fizer for Walker deal has nothing to do with how good Fizer is- obviuosly Walker is a "better" player in the sense that he has more skill and is a bigger star. The reason I wouldn't do the deal is because Fizer is a smart player who knows his role, shoots a high %, and is exaclty what the Bulls need. Walker, on the other, I consider to be a bad-decision maker who would eat up too many shots on a young team that has enough scorers already. That's all I meant


Agoo, you are right to laugh at a Fizer-Walker deal, as it is completely asinine from the Celtics perspective. That was never what I meant.
As far as Shareef, well I really believe that trading for him would make the Celtics a better team (see explanation above). I guess we can just agree to disagree there.


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## thegza (Feb 18, 2003)

Rahim is a better fit then Walker on any team in the NBA. He is the better player at SF or PF. He would not shoot too much and be an Iverson gone wrong like Walker is. Walker is one of those overrated "superstars" in the league and he proved that during the playoffs this post-season.

Boston needs a big man to give them better rebounding and stretch the defense for Pierce. Honestly, if Boston fans can't realize Walker is no good for the team and see that Rahim is only going to get better in a position he hasn't been playing long for then maybe they deserve to have such a pain in the *** like Walker on their team.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

OMG, YOU PEOPLE HAVE TO BE KIDDING.

Number 1) How did the JWill for JR thread become the Rahim vs Twan thread? (Twans better btw)

Number 2) HOW THE HELL DOES ATLANTA HAVE A WORSE TEAM?

According to you guys Atlanta beats us at every position besides where Pierce plays.

Ratliff
Rahim
Robinson
-(Pierce)
Terry

And oh yeah OB is the best coach in the universe, he should be COY.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

BTW just blaim Walker because of him World War 1 and 2 started.    

Get a new target.

Man I hope Twan gets traded to a team where he wins a Championship. I really wanna see who'll you blame then.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> HOW THE HELL DOES ATLANTA HAVE A WORSE TEAM?


Atlanta is a much better team talent-wise, but they play worse than the Celtics because:
a.)they have no one to take care of the ball- the closest thing they have to a legit pg is Terry, and he doesn't pass and isn't a great ballhandler. That's why this team led the league in turnovers.
b.)they are poorly coached, and had to make a coaching change midway thru the year
c.)Glenn Robinson, arguably the softest and most selfish star-level player in this league, plays on this team

None of these circumstances are in any way Shareef's fault


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> BTW just blaim Walker because of him World War 1 and 2 started.
> 
> Get a new target.
> ...


Man I hope Toine stays here and wins a Championship or two or seven and becomes the most underappriciated Celtic since Bill Russell.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> Atlanta is a much better team talent-wise, but they play worse than the Celtics because:
> a.)they have no one to take care of the ball- the closest thing they have to a legit pg is Terry, and he doesn't pass and isn't a great ballhandler. That's why this team led the league in turnovers.
> ...


a) Celtics have ANTOINE TO TAKE CARE OF THE BALL. Thats why his Rebounds are down, and people call him selfish.

b) All right they are poorly coached, but are the Celtics good coached? They have one offense (give the ball to Pierce or Walker and be on the outside waiting for the 3 ball).

c) Shareef should be a voice then, like Walker is, he should be a leader but he's not. Its not Shareefs fault they are bad, but its his fault that they aren't good.


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## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

WaLker is the better pLayer, WaLker wiLL most LiekLy end his career w/ the CeLts unLess sumthing drastic happens, and he wiLL be a key ingredient in the next year or so when we make a run at #17...and thatz aLL I have to say about that........


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> ) Celtics have ANTOINE TO TAKE CARE OF THE BALL. Thats why his Rebounds are down, and people call him selfish.


I don't believe I ever called him selfish, I called him a bad decision-maker and a poor fit for a team that is overly dependent on the three-ball as it is.



> All right they are poorly coached, but are the Celtics good coached? They have one offense (give the ball to Pierce or Walker and be on the outside waiting for the 3 ball).


First off, their offense is quite a bit more than that. Secondly, yes O'Brien is overly dependent on the three, but that he is because the personnel he has to work with dictate that he be so. He is only doing what any good coach should, and playing to the strengths of his best players. Unfortunatlely, their power forward's strengths are more on the perimeter than in the post; thus, the team is overly perimeter oriented.



> Shareef should be a voice then, like Walker is, he should be a leader but he's not. Its not Shareefs fault they are bad, but its his fault that they aren't good.


I have no doubt that Walker is a better leader than Shareef- that is one of Walker's strengths and Shareefs weaknesses. What I am questioning is how vital that leadership is to the Celtics- they already have a lead-by-example guy in Pierce, and if you really need a vocal, locker-room leader, those guys are a dime a dozen. Go pick up Mateen Cleaves or bring Larry Johnson out of retirement.


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## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> I don't believe I ever called him selfish, I called him a bad decision-maker and a poor fit for a team that is overly dependent on the three-ball as it is.
> 
> ...




I've never seen cLeaves or LJ fire up his team enough to make the biggest comeback in NBA history...wait, who di that? sum gay name WaLker i think?!!!!!!!


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> I've never seen cLeaves or LJ fire up his team enough to make the biggest comeback in NBA history...wait, who di that? sum gay name WaLker i think?!!!!!!!


Fine then, hire a professional motivational speaker.


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## KA (Apr 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> Well, this thread has gone rediculously off topic, so I think I'm going to attempt to address them all:
> 
> *1. Jay Williams vs. JR Bremmer: * Jay Williams will be better. Incase Celtic fans didn't notice, Bremmer couldn't unseat Tony Delk as the starter at point this season. Bremmer is far from an all-star. He's a decent role player who is good for hitting a three or two to get us back in the game. I see Steve Kerr/BJ Armstrong (with out the rings) at best. JayWill though was a rookie PG with tons of pressure on him to be the PG and the man for that team. I know you all are saying, "Bremmer was a rookie PG too, look at what he did." Ok, Bremmer was a rookie PG on a team where Antoine and Pierce bring the ball up as much, if not more, than the point guards. And, because Bremmer started the season as the twelth man, he had no pressure on him to get on the court, let alone score or do anything at all. On the other hand, Williams was supposed to be an all-star instantly, which is too much pressure for a rookie, particularly when you expect him to play the point. Also, he was the point guard on a team of guys that are still trying to figure out how to play the game. Furthermore, Chicago already had a point guard who they were enamored with in Jamal Crawford. Considering all of this, the question begs to be asked, if you're going to set a guy up to fail like that, why take that guy?


You obviously have done your homework. Maybe next time you post, you can spell Bremer's name right.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*Antoine Defenders*



> Originally posted by <b>KA</b>!
> 
> 
> You obviously have done your homework. Maybe next time you post, you can spell Bremer's name right.


First of all, how can you wish for Antoine to be traded? We want him to help BOSTON get a championship. Also, Shareef is killing in that poll, so obviously not as many people agree with us. They must see Antoine's 38% FGPCT and 61% FTPCT and 32% 3PTPCT (which I must admit, are PATHETIC). Take another look at those numbers. There are no excuses.

You bring up Antoine's handling the ball as the reason for his unacceptable rebound numbers, but the fact is that what the hell is going on on the defensive glass, where we frequently get killed. Antoine is usually guarding a 4 or a 5, so he's under the basket on defense. 7RPG is also WEAK.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*Re: Antoine Defenders*

Also, I'm surprised the St. Bonaventure guy is still here. I thought he would have QUIT by now. But I'm glad he's defending JR, because I love the guy.


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## lochdoun (Jun 11, 2003)

IMO, JR is nothing more than a good back-up PG, I may be proven wrong afterwards, but what undrafted rookie has become a bonafide star in this league? I can't name one (if anyone can then let me know).

Jay Will is a straight-up bust (the Ryan Leaf or Akili Smith of the NBA)


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*Undrafted Free Agents....*

What undrafted free agents have become superstars....Uh, I don't know....BEN WALLACE MAYBE!!! 

Lochdoun, learn the facts, go do some homework, watch some games....And no, Jay Williams is not the Ryan Leaf of the NBA...that could go to Joe Barry Carroll or Pervis Ellison, but you can't say that yet about a rookie point guard who left school one year early.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>KA</b>!
> 
> 
> You obviously have done your homework. Maybe next time you post, you can spell Bremer's name right.


Didn't know this was a spelling bee. 

As for doing my homework, I'm a Celtics fan who watches Celtics games. Bremer plays for the Celtics, whom I'm a fan of and who's games I watch. Bremer was brought in over the immortal Omar Cook to be the back up point guard on a team that doesn't actually have a point guard. Bremer isn't a point guard either. He's one of those guys that would be a good shooting guard but is too short to play there and gets forced to play point. He's alright. Nice to have around. Better than Omar Cook. But I'm not sure why people are obsessed with him. He's nothing special. I think my comparison of him to Steve Kerr was overrating JR.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> I don't believe I ever called him selfish, I called him a bad decision-maker and a poor fit for a team that is overly dependent on the three-ball as it is.
> 
> ...


1) I know you didn't, notice I didn't say you said it, I said "People say"
 

2) Louie, believe me thats the offense, nothing more. And Louie, the strenghts of these players is not the 3. Heck the Celtics suck at 3 point shooting.

3) As said, no man has every motivated another to get the greatest comback in NBA Playoff history.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Antoine Defenders*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> 
> 
> First of all, how can you wish for Antoine to be traded? We want him to help BOSTON get a championship. Also, Shareef is killing in that poll, so obviously not as many people agree with us. They must see Antoine's 38% FGPCT and 61% FTPCT and 32% 3PTPCT (which I must admit, are PATHETIC). Take another look at those numbers. There are no excuses.
> ...


Walker 75% of people don't like him, 24% love it when he does well and defend him, the other 1% defend him no matter what.

Pierce 99.99% of people love him, love it when he does well, and defend him no matter what, he's never to blaim. .01% hate him (which is me), because he can't go a game without having a double digit turnover stat.

Antoine Walker has THE BEST hands in the NBA, he has to guard players bigger then him, and more athletic then him. He boxes out, and gives his teamates a chance to get the board, which 70% of the time, we don't get the ball because everyone is running away from the ball. I remember this one time, Twan boxed out Ben Wallace, 3 other Celitcs right next to the ball COMMING AT THEM, and a Piston player cleans up the offensive board.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> 1) I know you didn't, notice I didn't say you said it, I said "People say"


LOl, my bad.....point taken. 



> 2) Louie, believe me thats the offense, nothing more. And Louie, the strenghts of these players is not the 3. Heck the Celtics suck at 3 point shooting.


I've watched more than a few Celtic games, and I'm quite sure that there's more to their offense than "get the ball to Pierce or Walker for a three". And the strength of the Celtics *is * the three ball, trust me- compared to other teams in the league, the Celtics are quite good at it. Sometimes it may appear that they aren't (the team as a whole is way too trigger happy), but the fact that this team is good at threes, coupled with their defense, is the only thing that's allowed them to be this successful without any true post presence or decent rebounders.



> As said, no man has every motivated another to get the greatest comback in NBA Playoff history.


Well I'll give you that, but like said before, if all you want is a motivational speaker, why don't just hire Mel Gibson as an assisstant coach? Ever see Braveheart?


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> Well I'll give you that, but like said before, if all you want is a motivational speaker, why don't just hire Mel Gibson as an assisstant coach? Ever see Braveheart?


I'll excuse you on not knowing that most actors don't write scripts. I don't think Gibson wrote Braveheart, though I could be wrong. 

However, if Mel Gibson is capable of putting up 20-7-4 for 80 games a year, I'd take him in Boston.

By the way, anyone notice that the title of this thread is Jay Williams?


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> 
> By the way, anyone notice that the title of this thread is Jay Williams?


We need to have a single thread in which all of the non Celtic fans can come over here and bash Antoine Walker, propose ridiculous trades involving Antoine Walker, etc., and all the Celtic fans can chime in and say how much they love Antoine Walker in spite of his flaws, etc.

Then some of the other threads might stay focused.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> I've watched more than a few Celtic games, and I'm quite sure that there's more to their offense than "get the ball to Pierce or Walker for a three". And the strength of the Celtics *is * the three ball, trust me- compared to other teams in the league, the Celtics are quite good at it. Sometimes it may appear that they aren't (the team as a whole is way too trigger happy), but the fact that this team is good at threes, coupled with their defense, is the only thing that's allowed them to be this successful without any true post presence or decent rebounders.


So you admited number 1 and 3, now lets work on number 2. .

"get the ball to Pierce or Walker for a three", I think I said something more in a tone of, "give the ball to Pierce or Walker 'iso them and be ready to shoot the 3'".

Louie, throughout the season we have heard Tommy Heinsohn say that Walter and Brown shoot mid-range jumpers like layups, and we all know that Williams can take it inside, that Pierce is the best at getting fouls while driving to the hoop, that Walter can REALLY DUNK the ball (another thing that will be missed, when Walter used to dunk he used to yell "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh"), Brown's game is taking it to the hoop, Bakers is inside not shooting mid-range jumpers, and Twan is best while taking it inside. This is not a good 3 point shooting team, heck a monkey could shoot 33% from the 3. We shoot 27 3s on average and only make 9 of them. Its frusterating (sp?) to see teams shoot 15 3s and make 7 or 8.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> And the strength of the Celtics *is * the three ball, trust me- compared to other teams in the league, the Celtics are quite good at it. Sometimes it may appear that they aren't (the team as a whole is way too trigger happy), but the fact that this team is good at threes, coupled with their defense, is the only thing that's allowed them to be this successful without any true post presence or decent rebounders.


Louie, this is not a personal attack, ***Actually- that was a personal attack. I don't see how it possibly could be interpreted as anything else*** we are not giving you any of our players (unless you give us Jay Williams), and you don't have a grasp of the C's. Yes they play good defense, which keeps them in games, but they were 21st in 3pt efficiency (.334). So no, they are not good at shooting threes, in fact, they are among the league's bottom feeders there.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> I'll excuse you on not knowing that most actors don't write scripts. I don't think Gibson wrote Braveheart, though I could be wrong.


Well, he delivered the speech and directed the film, so i think he gets some credit there.  



> By the way, anyone notice that the title of this thread is Jay Williams?


Fair enough- I split the threads.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> "get the ball to Pierce or Walker for a three", I think I said something more in a tone of, "give the ball to Pierce or Walker 'iso them and be ready to shoot the 3'".


Oh, my bad. I guess I misread that.



> Louie, throughout the season we have heard Tommy Heinsohn say that Walter and Brown shoot mid-range jumpers like layups, and we all know that Williams can take it inside, that Pierce is the best at getting fouls while driving to the hoop, that Walter can REALLY DUNK the ball (another thing that will be missed, when Walter used to dunk he used to yell "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh"), Brown's game is taking it to the hoop, Bakers is inside not shooting mid-range jumpers, and Twan is best while taking it inside. This is not a good 3 point shooting team, heck a monkey could shoot 33% from the 3. We shoot 27 3s on average and only make 9 of them. Its frusterating (sp?) to see teams shoot 15 3s and make 7 or 8.


Think about it this way though- since the Celtics are such a poor rebounding team, they need to make up for the fact that they are getting less scoring oppurtunities per game. Obviously OB's three-point bonanza strategy has been successful, as the Celtics have gone deep in the playoffs for the past two years without any legitimate post option- the guy must be doing something right. OB has this group overacheiving, but I believe that in order to take the next step, they need to add a true post presence.

I have watched Twan, and I don't believe that he is best taking it inside- if he was, he'd just stay inside all the time, or at least most of it. Like I said before, he can be a very effective post scorer in certain matchups, but he can be shut down in the post by taller, more athletic 4's (see K-Mart). His three-point shooting is what makes him so versatile, but it can be detrimental to his team.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> we are not giving you any of our players (unless you give us Jay Williams),


What players of yours did I propose a trade for? 



> you don't have a grasp of the C's. Yes they play good defense, which keeps them in games, but they were 21st in 3pt efficiency (.334). So no, they are not good at shooting threes, in fact, they are among the league's bottom feeders there.


Stats don't tell you everything. The reason the Celts have such a low % is because they take so many threes. If every team in the league took as many threes as the Celts, I guarantee that the Celts would be among the leaders in three-point %. The problem is that the Celtics are over-reliant on the three-pointer..........which is all the more reason why it would be beneficial to trade Walker for more of a pure post-scorer, IMO.


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