# Is Telfair the next Jason Kidd?



## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

I know there are differences between them. Kidd is bigger and stronger, for starters. But consider these interesting similarities.

Both are great passers. Both like to push the ball. Both are excellent at finishing around the basket. Both have a suspect jump shot. Both are the leaders of their respective teams. Both are fiery competitors. Both have a penchant for the spectacular. Both are excellent ball handlers.

Where Telfair has the edge is his quickness. And--do I dare say it?--he might even have better court vision than Kidd.

Telfair's nearly triple-double tonight showed me that he has the potential to excel in many facets of the game just like Kidd does. Yes, it was just a summer league game, but I think Telfair has the potential to be a triple threat in the NBA.

By the time Kidd is ending his career, or maybe sooner, Telfair could be the pre-emininent point guard in the NBA.

Tell me if I'm crazy . . .


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

No. He's a cross between Tiny Archibald/John Stockton. He has the ability to score 20 (Tiny) with over 10 dimes (Stockton). That's his peak. He's a player you've never seen before. Superior fundamentals in a little guard with tremendous flair and style to his game.

Or he's pre-injury Kenny Anderson with better court vision, jumpshot and finishing ability.


----------



## Crimson the Cat (Dec 30, 2002)

I agree. We haven't seen a player quite like Sebastian before. I like the John Stockton comparison. Telfair would need to improve his shooting and defense of course before even including the two in the same breath. Zeke is another player that Telfair reminds me of. He's got a little of everyone.

Too many people are making a big deal about his shooting. Most every player struggles to shoot well when they're young. Telfair is only 20. If he hasn't drastically improved his shot by 23, then you can worry about that part of his game.


----------



## hirschmanz (Jun 3, 2005)

jason kidd is a way better rebounder in game time situations. I say wait two more seasons before telfair's future can be told.


----------



## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Kidd is bigger and stronger. He was faster, too, than Telfair.

I wouldn't say Sebastian is much like Kidd at all, really, other than that they are NBA PGs who were both awesome prep players and got a ton of hype.

Ed O.


----------



## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

Ed O said:


> Kidd is bigger and stronger. He was faster, too, than Telfair.
> 
> I wouldn't say Sebastian is much like Kidd at all, really, other than that they are NBA PGs who were both awesome prep players and got a ton of hype.
> 
> Ed O.


Was Kidd really faster? I remember him having great defensive instincts, but it was more the instinct than the speed that worked for him.


----------



## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Reep said:


> Was Kidd really faster? I remember him having great defensive instincts, but it was more the instinct than the speed that worked for him.


Straight-line speed Kidd was incredible from my recollection. It might just be the style of play, but I haven't seen the same burst of speed from Telfair. Quickness, absolutely, but not speed.

Ed O.


----------



## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

Ed O said:


> Straight-line speed Kidd was incredible from my recollection. It might just be the style of play, but I haven't seen the same burst of speed from Telfair. Quickness, absolutely, but not speed.
> 
> Ed O.


Agreed. Kidd is obviously a great player, but he isn't what I thought he would be. I expected him to be a top PG plus on the all defensive team. His defense is good, but not as impressive as it was when he was younger.


----------



## BBALLSCIENCES (Oct 16, 2004)

No way in hell kidd was faster than Telfair. I've got a high school game of Jason Kidd in the state championship and although he was fast, very fast, Bassy still has the edge on him in that department. Interestingly enough people comparing Deron Williams to Jason Kidd, but thing is, Kidd was never as slow as Deron, excluding these past 2 seasons. As far as the comparison goes, they are both great passers, and I think will be both good defenders with other similarities but will get it done in different ways. Kidd's size and strength are the determining factors of his game while with Telfair it's his speed and quickness.


----------



## Crimson the Cat (Dec 30, 2002)

That you're all arguing about who to compare Telfair to just proves what a special player he could potentially become.


----------



## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

BBALLSCIENCES said:


> No way in hell kidd was faster than Telfair.


Remind me who was voted second fastest with the ball in the NBA by NBA GMs in November of 2004. Obviously nobody has perfect information, so the fact that only Iverson was considered faster is not conclusive, but Jason Kidd was very very fast. That Telfair's game is predicated on quickness and speed might be true, but that's not evidence that he's faster than Kidd.

Ed O.


----------



## CelticPagan (Aug 23, 2004)

I was just thinking he is like a cross between Allan Iverson in terms of speed and quickness, and John Stockton. But he lacks a jumpshot right now.

However, if he grows into an Iverson/Stockton hybrid, that would be fine by me. He certainly has the ability to right now.


----------



## vadimivich (Mar 29, 2004)

HKF said:


> Or he's pre-injury Kenny Anderson with better court vision, jumpshot and finishing ability.


He's not as good as Kenny A. was yet. He might be. Kenny A. could really, really ball before he got hurt though.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

vadimivich said:


> He's not as good as Kenny A. was yet. He might be. Kenny A. could really, really ball before he got hurt though.


Actually, Kenny had trouble finishing at the rim. Sebastian is a better finisher. However Anderson was still in college when Sebastian was a rookie and came to a putrid Nets team with no one in front of him.

Trust me, I'm aware of what Kenny Anderson could do. I used to watch the Nets all the time and Kenny is from Lefrak City. I watch my Queens brethren.


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Telfair is overrated.
I wouldn't have picked him before the 20's.
Jameer Nelson is better.
Little guards will never make it in the NBA.
He can't shoot.
He can't run an offense.
I like pie. Pie is good.


----------



## CanJohno (Feb 11, 2005)

MemphisX said:


> Telfair is overrated.
> I wouldn't have picked him before the 20's.
> Jameer Nelson is better.
> Little guards will never make it in the NBA.
> ...


:rofl:

Look out, there's a comedian amongst us! Good one, man... GOOD ONE! uke:


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> Telfair is overrated.
> I wouldn't have picked him before the 20's.
> Jameer Nelson is better.
> Little guards will never make it in the NBA.
> ...


Shut up Dickie V. :clown:


----------



## Crimson the Cat (Dec 30, 2002)

Little guards suck. Thomas sucks. Stockton sucks. You're so right.


----------



## dkap (May 13, 2003)

Tony Parker is the closest comparison I can think of right now, with the main difference being Parker is a bit more shoot-first. In a couple years, I can see those two waging some epic battles.

I just don't see the Kidd likeness...

Dan


----------



## Buck Williams (May 16, 2004)

MemphisX said:


> Telfair is overrated.
> I wouldn't have picked him before the 20's.
> Jameer Nelson is better.
> Little guards will never make it in the NBA.
> ...


That is such an ignorent post i dont know how to respnd to it other than :stupid:


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Blazerben4 said:


> That is such an ignorent post i dont know how to respnd to it other than :stupid:


It was a joke.


----------



## Buck Williams (May 16, 2004)

OIC lol its always hard to tell online there are people that would argue those points


----------



## Peaceman (Jan 15, 2003)

I'll get probably roasted for saying this, but he reminds me more of Rod Strickland. Quick, and fairly fast. Below average outside shot and defense, but can create very well going to the hoop. Very good scorer around the basket.


----------



## LameR (Jan 4, 2004)

Two threads with Kenny Anderson references in like...4 days, awesome!

Edit: Right, about the topic. I like the Parker comparison. Parker shoots more as mentioned, and has a more polished overall game just due to experience.


----------



## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

what exactly has he done in half a starting season to make people think that he should be mentioned in the same breath as kidd and stockton?!?

im a blazers fan but come on guys! that is a MASSIVE comparison to make and is unfair on Telfair at this point in his short career. Those two players are premiere pgs over the last years , they have had (or are having) year on year great seasons and constant high level performances - where is parity for comparison?

personally i hope he can just stay healthy for the upcoming season and we can get some stability in the lineup.


----------



## LameR (Jan 4, 2004)

BlayZa said:


> what exactly has he done in half a starting season to make people think that he should be mentioned in the same breath as kidd and stockton?!?


TH got us excited about the near-triple double.

*shamed*


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

1984-85 (22 years of age): 5.6 ppg, 5.1 apg, 1.3 rpg, 1.3 spg, 18.2 mpg
1985-86 (23): 7.7 ppg, 7.4 apg, 2.2 rpg, 1.9 spg, 23.6 mpg
1986-87 (24): 7.9 ppg, 8.2 apg, 1.8 rpg, 2.2 spg, 22.7 mpg
1987-88 (25): 14.7 ppg, 13.8 apg, 2.9 rpg, 3.0 spg, 34.7 mpg

It took Stockton 3 full years, till he broke out and was able to put up all-NBA type numbers and he went to college for 4 years. Not to mention he also played a few years during a stat-inflated era, since the whole league basically was a running league.

Now Telfair's first season:

2004-05 (19 years of age): 6.8 ppg, 3.3 apg, 1.5 rpg, 0.5 spg, 19.6 mpg 

Coupled with all the turmoil Sebastian had to come into with (Damon and Nick), lame duck coach (Cheeks), explain to me, why Telfair can't become a great PG. I've thought he'd be an outstanding PG for years, but even without my biases, Stockton didn't become Stockton to the NBA fan, till his 4th season. I think Telfair will be fine. Stockon was 6'1 170. Sebastian is listed at 6'0 165 lbs (I think he's heavier now).


----------



## Kopay (Jun 28, 2005)

Peaceman said:


> I'll get probably roasted for saying this, but he reminds me more of Rod Strickland. Quick, and fairly fast. Below average outside shot and defense, but can create very well going to the hoop. Very good scorer around the basket.


Telfair can only finish around the basket like Strickland in his dreams. Telfair finishes more like Damon than Rod. I'm not bashing Telfair, but Rod was one of the most talented players in the league for a few years when it came to finishing at the hoop, or dishing the rock when he got into the lane. Rod was absolutely amazing when he was consistantly putting up 20 and 10. 

I think Telfair has great upside, but until he starts making his teammates better, he's still just a kid with potential. The Parker comparison is good. Parker lovers to shoot, but so does Telfair. He can get his shot off against anybody, and he usually tries to look for his own shot early. Of course the team we were fielding late last year, he was basically one of the only scoring options. I can't wait to see what he does with a healthy squad this year.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Rod Strickland avg. over 9 assists 4 times in 17 seasons.


----------



## Kopay (Jun 28, 2005)

HKF said:


> Rod Strickland avg. over 9 assists 4 times in 17 seasons.


Yes, Rod has sucked for the past 10 years. There was a period of time where Rod was unstoppable in between DUI's and the bar fights earlier in his career. He was good enough to land Rasheed Wallace in a trade, IIRC.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Kopay said:


> Yes, Rod has sucked for the past 10 years. There was a period of time where Rod was unstoppable in between DUI's and the bar fights earlier in his career. He was good enough to land Rasheed Wallace in a trade, IIRC.


I never said sucked. I just stated pertinent numbers. I am very aware of what Strickland could have been if he wasn't a headcase. However, I could say the same for a lot of players. Telfair has the right mindset, to go along with the skills.


----------



## Kopay (Jun 28, 2005)

HKF said:


> I never said sucked. I just stated pertinent numbers. I am very aware of what Strickland could have been if he wasn't a headcase. However, I could say the same for a lot of players. Telfair has the right mindset, to go along with the skills.


I figured you were pointing out that I was over-rating Strickland. My bad. I do agree that Telfair has the talent to take it to the next level. Besides his jump shot, he really needs to work on finishing around the basket. He struggled a lot last year adjusting his shot when he was amongst the trees. If he can develop a running floater like Nash, he would become lethal in the lane.


----------



## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

HKF said:


> 1984-85 (22 years of age): 5.6 ppg, 5.1 apg, 1.3 rpg, 1.3 spg, 18.2 mpg
> 
> ...
> 
> 2004-05 (19 years of age): 6.8 ppg, 3.3 apg, 1.5 rpg, 0.5 spg, 19.6 mpg


I don't know what this shows other than that Telfair wasn't as good his rookie year as Stockton.

There's certainly a chance that Telfair will be great, but he wasn't as good as Tony Parker or Stephon Marbury were as rookies, either (and each was 19, as well).

It seems so far statistically all we can point to is that Telfair's not as good as other players that have turned out to be good. That's not an indictment against him nor a prediction of failure, but his stats certainly aren't any sort of evidence in FAVOR of greatness as far as I can tell.

Ed O.


----------



## Crimson the Cat (Dec 30, 2002)

Ed O - Sebastian was coming out of high school. Parker had a year of experience on a very good Euroleague team, right? Marbury played one year for Georgia Tech.

Your comparison isn't fair, IMO.


----------



## dkap (May 13, 2003)

> I don't know what this shows other than that Telfair wasn't as good his rookie year as Stockton.


How do you figure that? Better scoring and rebounding, worse assists and steals, similar minutes. Other than the assists, pretty much a wash. But Stockton probably didn't have to share time in the backcourt with another PG, so I'm not sure how much can be made of that.

Dan


----------



## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Crimson the Cat said:


> Ed O - Sebastian was coming out of high school. Parker had a year of experience on a very good Euroleague team, right? Marbury played one year for Georgia Tech.
> 
> Your comparison isn't fair, IMO.


You're entitled to your opinion, certainly. If people are going to use his age as an excuse for why his production isn't where other players' is as a rookie, then they should compare him to other 19 year olds.

Ed O.


----------



## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

dkap said:


> How do you figure that? Better scoring and rebounding, worse assists and steals, similar minutes. Other than the assists, pretty much a wash.


Stockton played fewer minutes and got 50% more assists per game and almost three times as many steals. Rebounding was the almost the same, and scoring is less relevant to me because the job of the PG (as Stockton showed us) is to set up other players, not to get off as many shots as you can.

And those stats don't factor in shooting percentages, where Telfair shot 39.3% from the field and Stockton shot 47.1%.



> But Stockton probably didn't have to share time in the backcourt with another PG, so I'm not sure how much can be made of that.


The minutes per game clearly indicate Stockton was sharing time... he played fewer than 20 minutes a game and only started 5 of the 82 he appeared in. Ricky Green was Utah's starting PG, and pretty good one. 

Ed O.


----------



## dkap (May 13, 2003)

> The minutes per game clearly indicate Stockton was sharing time...


Sharing time and splitting time, for lack of a better term, are very different things. Telfair usually wasn't the only PG in the game, so his assist numbers are obviously going to suffer. I don't believe that was the case for Stockton.

As for steals, there's a reason Stockton was regarded throughout his career as one of the greats in that category.

Dan


----------



## cimalee (Apr 17, 2003)

Bassy reminds me of Zeke and Stockton


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

My early composite comparison for Telfair, since he's not quite like any single player, was John Stockton with Iverson's cross-over. After watching him play for a season, I still think that's appropriate. Whether he'll reach that level of ability is certainly unlikely (no player except, maybe, Bron, is a _good_ bet to become a Hall of Famer just a year or two into his career), but that seems to describe him stylistically.


----------



## OntheRocks (Jun 15, 2005)

MemphisX said:


> Telfair is overrated.
> I wouldn't have picked him before the 20's.
> Jameer Nelson is better.
> Little guards will never make it in the NBA.
> ...



Well one thing I agree with you is pie, the rest... ehh nope.

Telfair isn't going to be as good as Kidd was before the busted knee, but I have a good feeling he will be a star for many years to come.


----------



## cimalee (Apr 17, 2003)

I think they have the same vision but Kidd is a big guard Bassy is a small guard .


I believe Sebastian will be a superstar in this league .


----------



## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> If people are going to use his age as an excuse for why his production isn't where other players' is as a rookie, then they should compare him to other 19 year olds.


If you're comparing him to other 19-year-olds who are coming straight out of high school, then yes. But if a guy has played in a European league, or in college for one year, then he will clearly have an edge over the guy who is coming straight out of high school. Not all 19-year-olds are equal.

If a 19-year-old kid goes to war, he will be trained in the use of a rifle and other weapons. That gives him an edge over any other 19-year-old who hasn't gone to war when it comes to using those weapons. Telfair never played at a level higher than high school when he joined the Blazers, and thus had not received the "special weapons" training that Parker and Marbury had received while playing against a higher level of competition.


----------



## NOBLE (Apr 10, 2005)

Sebastian is my favorite player in the league. Period. He's going to be a beast.


----------



## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Talkhard said:


> If you're comparing him to other 19-year-olds who are coming straight out of high school, then yes. But if a guy has played in a European league, or in college for one year, then he will clearly have an edge over the guy who is coming straight out of high school. Not all 19-year-olds are equal.


Actually NO 19 year-olds are equal.

Making distinctions like that of saying we can't compare Sebastian to Marbury and Parker simply because they had different pre-NBA experience means that we can't compare anyone.

Except, maybe, Livingston, who had a better rookie season than Telfair, so my original point is still pretty strong.



> Telfair never played at a level higher than high school when he joined the Blazers, and thus had not received the "special weapons" training that Parker and Marbury had received while playing against a higher level of competition.


Telfair played AAU. He played in ABCD camps. He played against NBA players in pickup games on a regular basis. 

Telfair wasn't playing basketball in rural Oregon and was suddenly thrust into the NBA. He had played basketball at a pretty high level for some time, even though he was a high schooler.

Ed O.


----------



## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

HKF wins the best avatar ever award.

weasel! weasel!


----------



## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> Making distinctions like that of saying we can't compare Sebastian to Marbury and Parker simply because they had different pre-NBA experience means that we can't compare anyone.


Of course you can. But you have to allow for the differences in experience between them. You don't seem willing to do that.


----------



## chula vista blazer (Jul 13, 2005)

I think it is way too early to compare Telfair to the great point guards. Who cares how Stockton did at age 19? I really don't.

The key question we should be asking is how well is Telfair contributing to the Blazers. How does he run our offense. 

And, right now, I'm pretty excited about his progress in the summer league. I look forward to seeing how he does with Zach and a full Blazers team.

I think it's too easy to get lost in statistical projections.

Given that sports is about entertainment, I think another fair question is how much do we enjoy watching Sebastian. I think most of us immensely enjoy watching him!


----------



## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

chula vista blazer said:


> The key question we should be asking is how well is Telfair contributing to the Blazers. How does he run our offense.


We saw that answer to that: the Blazers were the worst team in the conference, and maybe the NBA, with Telfair running the team.

If we don't talk about how good he MIGHT be, it's going to be pretty depressing to talk about Sebastian.

Ed O.


----------



## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Talkhard said:


> Of course you can. But you have to allow for the differences in experience between them. You don't seem willing to do that.


How do you propose we allow for those differences? Cluttering up the analysis with even more guessed-at variables will only serve to render whatever value we can currently extract even less valuable, IMO.

Ed O.


----------



## chula vista blazer (Jul 13, 2005)

Ed O said:


> We saw that answer to that: the Blazers were the worst team in the conference, and maybe the NBA, with Telfair running the team.
> 
> If we don't talk about how good he MIGHT be, it's going to be pretty depressing to talk about Sebastian.
> 
> Ed O.


I saw his play at the end of last season as better than you did, obviously. I don't think you can chalk up our records primarily to him running the team. I thought he showed good court vision and an improving jumper. I liked how he ran the team better than how Stoudamire ran the team.

He looks very good in summer league, but I want to see him in the regular season. I don't think it'll be depressing at all.

It's okay to talk about how good he will be- I just think stat comparisions with other great point guards aren't useful when you have such a small sample size and can't really adjust for quality of team mates. It's better to look at his progression within the team and I think he's looked better and better.

In short, i'd wait and see how the season starts out.


----------

