# Insider quote today regarding the Bulls, Deng, and Howard



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

I won't post the quote from Insider, but I will paraphrase it. Supposedly a Bulls source told Insider that if the Bulls get the #2 pick and Okafor is gone, they will either draft Deng or trade the pick. The source said the Bulls thought Howard was much closer to Kwame than LeBron (I assume in terms or readiness and ability). He also said the Bulls just don't have the stomach to draft another high schooler.

There you have it, Howard, Josh Smith, Dorrell lovers. If we can trust this "source," we're giving nothing more that lip service to HS kids.

I still don't know what we think of Josh Smith. I haven't seen a direct quote from Paxson on him, and you'd have to think we'll work him out, hopefully against Deng.


----------



## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Good stuff DMD!

IMO it sounds good.

I love the Idea of takink Howard only to trade him for Deng and something?!


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I think that is good. Even though the HS players are really good, the Bulls drafting them is the last thing that needs to happen. The Bulls need to win now.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> I think that is good. Even though the HS players are really good, the Bulls drafting them is the last thing that needs to happen. The Bulls need to win now.


the Bulls have no chance of winning now. The only way it could happen is Kobe playing for us for the MLE. Not going to happen. We dont have enough tradable parts and no where near the talent. The front office is hell bent (there goes that term) to bring in nbdl guys and our coach is hell bent (one more time) to play those NBDL guys over legit NBA players like Erob etc. The Bulls need talent, and we need to forget next year. The Best thing that can happen to the Bulls is us picking 6th. Yes I said it. That way the pick wont be worth the star Pax thinks he can get (which he cant) and he will be forced to actually look at an international or HS player, where the talent lies. But who knows, he might just take Luke Jackson at 6 and make everyone happy


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bullet</b>!
> Good stuff DMD!
> 
> IMO it sounds good.
> ...


Yeah, thats going to happen. We just bashed Howard, now teams will just call our bluff.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

I take this with a grain of salt, first because that's already what we thought would happen, secondly because Paxson hasn't worked out Josh Smith yet, and third because we haven't gotten the 2nd pick yet. But it was still worth mentioning.


----------



## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, thats going to happen. We just bashed Howard, now teams will just call our bluff.


Bingo!

Loose lips sink ships.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> the Bulls have no chance of winning now. The only way it could happen is Kobe playing for us for the MLE. Not going to happen. We dont have enough tradable parts and no where near the talent. The front office is hell bent (there goes that term) to bring in nbdl guys and our coach is hell bent (one more time) to play those NBDL guys over legit NBA players like Erob etc. The Bulls need talent, and we need to forget next year. The Best thing that can happen to the Bulls is us picking 6th. Yes I said it. That way the pick wont be worth the star Pax thinks he can get (which he cant) and he will be forced to actually look at an international or HS player, where the talent lies. But who knows, he might just take Luke Jackson at 6 and make everyone happy


I think I might have to make a series of HELL BENT post it Avatars. You know, HELL BENT FOR KIRK HASTON, that kind of thing.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Pax should never have insinuated in the first place that he wouldnt take a HS kid. by doing that, he put himself in a corner, as DC correctly pointed out. He dropped the value of his own pick. He tried to correct the mistake some recently by saying nice things about Howard, but it came with zero conviction. On top of all that, he has spent the least amount of time in Europe, or anywhere else for that matter, of all the GMs. Sure he got to the euro final 4 but Ainge was in Europe for 2 weeks before that. He had one other trip to Europe before that for a week to get a look at Macijauskas. Since we know he wont take a guy he has never seen before, it would seem to me that he is going to look very desperate when trying to trade this pick, when Deng and Okafor are gone. Its a terrible spot to put yourself in. What he should do is be everywhere. Look at everyone. make an educated choice. Hint that he loves a guy or 2, that might not fit the norm, and then make his trade.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Pax should never have insinuated in the first place that he wouldnt take a HS kid. by doing that, he put himself in a corner, as DC correctly pointed out. He dropped the value of his own pick. He tried to correct the mistake some recently by saying nice things about Howard, but it came with zero conviction. On top of all that, he has spent the least amount of time in Europe, or anywhere else for that matter, of all the GMs. Sure he got to the euro final 4 but Ainge was in Europe for 2 weeks before that. He had one other trip to Europe before that for a week to get a look at Macijauskas. Since we know he wont take a guy he has never seen before, it would seem to me that he is going to look very desperate when trying to trade this pick, when Deng and Okafor are gone. Its a terrible spot to put yourself in. What he should do is be everywhere. Look at everyone. make an educated choice. Hint that he loves a guy or 2, that might not fit the norm, and then make his trade.


Yeah, no doubt Crumbs could keep his mouth shut. All he would say is "__________ is a fine player. We like __________." That's all he ever said about anyone before a draft.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, no doubt Crumbs could keep his mouth shut. All he would say is "__________ is a fine player. We like __________." That's all he ever said about anyone before a draft.


and what was great is that Crumbs would be in China, or Europe or in hamburg Arkansas. Sure he left the scouting dept in shambles cause he was such a control freak, but he was unpredicatable that teams just never knew what to expect out of the Bulls. Our current GM hasnt met a microphone that he hasnt liked. He speaks freely about everything. And frankly, I dont think he is crafty enough to lie into a mic. Id be shocked if he took a HS player and kept him. It would make me happy. But I just dont believe Mr Paxson is capable of delivering that surprise.


----------



## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Bring on Luol Deng. There is not a single HS kid who will make an immediate impact. Take Deng and go happy with a big smile on your face. 



> the Bulls have no chance of winning now. The only way it could happen is Kobe playing for us for the MLE.


As for the quote I am sorry but that is a crazy statement. If everyone steps up to the plate and works hard there is no reason that the Bulls can't get in the playoffs at least as an 8th seed. We don't have to have Kobe in order to win ballgames. If Crawford comes back it will be his 5th year, Tyson and Eddys' 4th year, and Hinrichs 2nd year. Those 4 along with Deng, Davis, JYD, and then a couple veteran backups at SG/SF and that should be a playoff team in the East.


----------



## Professor (Jun 6, 2002)

rlucas, weren't you surprised when he selected Hinrich last year?

I don't remember ANYONE on any of the Bulls boards predicting Hinrich as the Bulls pick, and I don't remember Paxson ever commenting on him as a possibility before the draft.

I think most of us would agree his primary target last season was Wade. But he didn't exactly advertize his interest in Kirk. While most of us were debating over Wade, Pietrus, and Hayes, he went in an unexpected direction.

In fact, while we're all debating Deng vs. Howard, he might just take Biedrins!


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Basghetti80</b>!
> Bring on Luol Deng. There is not a single HS kid who will make an immediate impact. Take Deng and go happy with a big smile on your face.
> 
> 
> ...


Im crazy? Exactly how many teams improve by 50% year over year in the win column? Maybe one or 2. And that takes the Bulls to 36 wins, probably still not enough to get into the first round

Let me guess, one year at Duke is so much better then playing at NBA High? My guess is that you havent seen these HSers play at all. 

And how are we going to get veteran backups when our own owner is hesitant to spend the MLE?


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> the Bulls have no chance of winning now. The only way it could happen is Kobe playing for us for the MLE. Not going to happen. We dont have enough tradable parts and no where near the talent. The front office is hell bent (there goes that term) to bring in nbdl guys and our coach is hell bent (one more time) to play those NBDL guys over legit NBA players like Erob etc. The Bulls need talent, and we need to forget next year. The Best thing that can happen to the Bulls is us picking 6th. Yes I said it. That way the pick wont be worth the star Pax thinks he can get (which he cant) and he will be forced to actually look at an international or HS player, where the talent lies. But who knows, he might just take Luke Jackson at 6 and make everyone happy


A 6-star post.

Yep, 6.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Professor</b>!
> rlucas, weren't you surprised when he selected Hinrich last year?
> 
> I don't remember ANYONE on any of the Bulls boards predicting Hinrich as the Bulls pick, and I don't remember Paxson ever commenting on him as a possibility before the draft.
> ...


What Paxson did say is that, and I'm paraphrasing, 'we will consider some players that we wouldn't have before Jay's injury.' He did hint then that we would consider a point guard. Most people thought he would take Hayes or Pietrus though if Wade was gone. Wade....


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> What Paxson did say is that, and I'm paraphrasing, 'we will consider some players that we wouldn't have before Jay's injury.' He did hint then that we would consider a point guard. Most people thought he would take Hayes or Pietrus though if Wade was gone. Wade....


He worked Hinrich out a couple of times before the draft. Right after the Jay thing. It wasnt the obvious choice, but it wasnt a surprise


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Does Kobe even put the Bulls in the playoffs? Lets face out, McGrady couldn't push the magic anywhere close to .500. Can the Bulls offer Kobe any more of a supporting cast then the Magic were able to offer Mcgrady? Its going to be dark for many years...

But, I agree with the Prof: its way to early to size up Paxson and his use of the media during draft-time. I have always read that "I can't select a player I haven't seen live" quote as a cop out answer on why he ultimately didn't select a player the team scouted heavily. It probably wasn't a legitimate reason. 

While all signs point to Pax being a fool, I am still waiting for confirmation. Paxson's lack of time in Europe is more than disconcerting, but we know he has been doing due diligence on the high school players. No-one expected Hinrich at 7, I hoping on being surprised again.


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Wade... 

Its not inconceivable that in the end he is going to be the strongest player out of last years draft.


----------



## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

sorry, double post


----------



## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

If I remember correctly, no media or poster here seriously talked about Kirk as our 1st pick at all before the jay's accident. And I think Paxon didn't really recruit him that much during the workout. We were all set on Wade or probably Pietrus if Wade is gone.

But Jay's accident changed everything cause all of sudden we needed a PG (as backup at that point behind JC at that point). Paxon did what he had to do under the circumstances and done well.

Unless we get 1 or 2nd pick, it just involves too much variables. But I am not a huge fan of drafting another kid. It could come back and bite us later on.

But we already have one too many kids and we don't right environment to bring up kid slowly.


----------



## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Im crazy? Exactly how many teams improve by 50% year over year in the win column? Maybe one or 2. And that takes the Bulls to 36 wins, probably still not enough to get into the first round


Agree with you there. In fact, what is the record for the biggest turn around in one season? The Bulls would have to probably enter the history books as one of the top 10 turnarounds in league history just to sniff the playoffs. I don't see anyone in the draft + FA that will have that effect for us. We're at the very least 2 years away from thinking playoffs.



> Let me guess, one year at Duke is so much better then playing at NBA High? My guess is that you havent seen these HSers play at all.


Don't necessarily agree with you here. Fact is all of these HSers are going to need some time to develop. The Bulls either lack the proper resources to develop HSers or are incapable of doing so. Either way, drafting a HS kid at this point would do more harm than good. 

Pax is right when he said in order to draft another HS kid he would have to change the makeup of the team. Who would Howard, Josh Smith, JR Smith, Livingston, Telfair, Wright, etc. learn from on this team? JO developed behind qualified players and stars. Milic appears to be doing the same. Kobe learned from Van Exel and Jones. TMac paid his due in Toronto. OTOH you can see where Kwame and our bigs are. Not scrubs, but I believe all would agree that their development has been disappointing thus far. LeBron and Amare were man-childs coming in. 

Just something to ponder.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>sp00k</b>!
> sorry, double post


We are talking one year of college ball. Its not the holy grail. And in Basgs case, his claim is that Deng is more ready cause of this. The counter is, he has only played 4 years of organized ball. My gut is that every HSer has played more. Deng is as much a project as any HS kid.

Shouldnt we be trying to develop an environment that kids can be brought up in? I think we had it under Krause and gulp, BC. But the **** hit the fan and now we dont. Sometimes the team cant do it. Its up to the player. Is there a HSer here who can truly be great and wants to be great? yes. Those types will succeed anywhere


----------



## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

*"Not many of the high school kids come in and make a difference or even contribute right away," Paxson said. "Everyone knows our situation. But that doesn't mean you just write them off, because there is a ton of talent out there."

"Three years ago, we went that route and we're still waiting for it to pay off," Paxson said, referring to college-skipping big men Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry, acquired on draft night in 2001.

"I'm not ready to rule anything out. But some things would have to happen to change the makeup of our team."

"Dwight Howard is physically gifted and has huge potential to be a star in this league, which is why you can't count him out," Paxson said. "He's not a LeBron (James), who you know can step in right away. But with his size and his skill level, he doesn't seem to be too far away. So everybody who has a top pick has to take a good hard look at him."*

To my knowledge, these are the only direct comments that Paxson has made about drafting a high school player in general and Howard in particular.

This thread was started as a commentary about what a so-called "Bulls source" told the ESPN Insider regarding the Bulls draft intentions. I don't see a single quote from Paxson in that Insider article.

C'mon people. Lets be logical. Isn't it awfully premature for the Bulls or anyone else to have drawn any permanent conclusions about the top picks in the draft before they've worked them out and interviewed them? Are we going to take as gospel a remark attributed to an unknown source? Or should we rely on Paxson's direct statements to the press as perhaps more representative of his own thought process?

And even more than that, those of you who have lived through recent drafts should know that there are more smokescreens and bits and pieces of intentionally planted misinformation floating around NBA circles than at any other time of the year.

Paxson hasn't said a damn thing about whether or not he'll draft Howard if given the opportunity. And he certainly hasn't "bashed" Howard as someone accused him of doing. He has, however, described the kid as a player with star potential.

So lets hold our horses until after 5/26 when everything will become much clearer.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> *"Not many of the high school kids come in and make a difference or even contribute right away," Paxson said. "Everyone knows our situation. But that doesn't mean you just write them off, because there is a ton of talent out there."
> 
> "Three years ago, we went that route and we're still waiting for it to pay off," Paxson said, referring to college-skipping big men Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry, acquired on draft night in 2001.
> ...


Then you must have missed the infamous " HSers dont know anything about hardwork" comment made earlier this year after a Howard game followed by the "Deng knows how to work cause he goes to Duke", comment. paraphrasing of course


----------



## dsouljah9 (Jul 9, 2002)

Finally, poster with some sense!! A statement from a "source" and everyone is preaching doom and gloom. .


----------



## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Then you must have missed the infamous "dont know anything about hardwork" comment made earlier this year after a Howard game followed by the "Deng knows how to work cause he goes to Duke", comment. paraphrasing of course


You're right. I don't recall anything about a comment Paxson is alleged to have made stating that Howard doesn't know anything about hard work but Deng does 'cause he's a Dukie. Please, refresh my memory or at least provide us with some specific context that will jar my feeble brain. Thanks.

Chances are though, if he said it he'd be right. I played HS and college ball, and there's no comparision.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dsouljah9</b>!
> Finally, poster with some sense!! A statement from a "source" and everyone is preaching doom and gloom. .


Oh cut the drama. I posted the thread and I even said I take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

first off, how do we know this source isnt Pax himself? Second off, actions speak louder then words

While teams are going to these agent led sponsored workouts to see international and HS talent, we are working out Jan Jagla, Matt Freije, Chris Duhon and Luke Jackson. All 4 college seniors. The Bulls have not attended one of these Cornstein or SFX gatherings. But other teams have. and often times flying a great distance too. While Portland is looking at a potential homerun in Ha Seung Jin, we are looking at Jan Jagla? I guess our desire for NBDL players is still there?

Now couple this with Pax spending very little overall time looking at international players, and not even attending the McDonalds game, and you can read that in a lot of ways. Add in his HSers dont know how to work comments and I dont think it takes a rocket scientist to see that Paxs actions and words are in direct unison. I hope its a smoke screen, but lets face it, he isnt wily enough to pull that one out.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

I think all of us believe Paxson would have taken LeBron though, right? I think he's stubborn, but not that stubborn.


----------



## unBULLievable (Dec 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Then you must have missed the infamous "dont know anything about hardwork" comment made earlier this year after a Howard game followed by the "Deng knows how to work cause he goes to Duke", comment. paraphrasing of course


"Deng knows how to work cause he goes to Duke", comment. 

Nope.Practices like a PRO


----------



## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> We are talking one year of college ball. Its not the holy grail. And in Basgs case, his claim is that Deng is more ready cause of this. The counter is, he has only played 4 years of organized ball. My gut is that every HSer has played more. Deng is as much a project as any HS kid.
> ...


Perhaps Deng's one year at Duke alone shouldn't be used as the sole qualifier of his credentials, but it's certainly hard to overlook his achievements this year. Most Outstanding Player of the Atlanta Regional of the NCAA Tournament and a spot on the All-Final Four team, not to mention that he was All ACC Second team and the best HS kid in his class after LeBron. Given his achievements this year, I think he's ready to come in and contribute right away.

But I definitely agree with you about our organization. We need to create an environment in which kids can come in and develop. Not so sure that Krause and BC had that since Jamal has clearly made his biggest strides under Skiles and Tyson and Eddy never had to work for anything under BC. Regardless of who's at blame, how do you go about creating this atmosphere? The only way I see it would almost require that this team be blown up and rebuilt around grinders like JYD, Hinrich, and AD and maybe a pick like Okafor. Doesn't sound all that appealing to me.


----------



## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh cut the drama. I posted the thread and I even said I take it with a grain of salt.


Problem is, DMD, a few people failed to heed your advice and somehow found a way to turn this unattributable bit of inside information into a leak from Paxson bashing Howard! Go figure!


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> You're right. I don't recall anything about a comment Paxson is alleged to have made stating that Howard doesn't know anything about hard work but Deng does 'cause he's a Dukie. Please, refresh my memory or at least provide us with some specific context that will jar my feeble brain. Thanks.
> ...


Its all over this board, go in the draft thread and enlighten yourself. There is pages and pages of direct Pax quotes saying HSers dont know how to work hard but Deng does cause he is in a college program. And if that isnt a generalization, I dont know what is. Enlighten yourself rather then taking yesterdays news and calling it the end all. 

And I played college ball as well as highschool ball. But I seriously doubt you played at Oak Hill or one of the power houses. Those HS produce NBA talent by the bucket. I am fairly sure they teach you how to work hard. But then again, perhaps your experience is greater then mine.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> Problem is, DMD, a few people failed to heed your advice and somehow found a way to turn this unattributable bit of inside information into a leak from Paxson bashing Howard! Go figure!


No, your guilty of it. Nowhere does it say pax bashed howard. The Bulls did however


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

This thread is golden. Anytime rlucas and Kismet go at it, its like Morpheus and Neo fighting in Matrix one. Everyone else seems to just stand and watch.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> This thread is golden. Anytime rlucas and Kismet go at it, its like Morpheus and Neo fighting in Matrix one. Everyone else seems to just stand and watch.


Its not going at it. Its all about quoting what you want to hear and then covering your ears and saying blah blah blah to what you dont want to hear. Paxs comments are the most quoted on this page this year. Kismet wants to pretend like they werent said, but they were. There is no fight. Its hard to have an argument with someone who doesnt have an open enough mind to know that things were said that didnt paint such a great picture. And those comments were quoted to pax himself.


----------



## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> first off, how do we know this source isnt Pax himself? Second off, actions speak louder then words
> 
> While teams are going to these agent led sponsored workouts to see international and HS talent, we are working out Jan Jagla, Matt Freije, Chris Duhon and Luke Jackson. All 4 college seniors. The Bulls have not attended one of these Cornstein or SFX gatherings. But other teams have. and often times flying a great distance too. While Portland is looking at a potential homerun in Ha Seung Jin, we are looking at Jan Jagla? I guess our desire for NBDL players is still there?
> ...


Gotta weigh in here...

Do you honestly think that John Paxson is the "source" being cited in this rather suspect piece of information? If so, I've got some nice ocean-front property in Nevada to sell you for a song.

Next, you bash the Bulls for looking at second round talent when, at the current moment, that's really all the talent that they could and should be looking at? They don't even know where they're picking yet. Why don't you wait until the beginning of june and if they're still bringing in the Jagla's and Frieje's of the world, then have at it. Good grief. Pax is just trying to get a look at all the second round talent he can while he has the ability to do so.

Finally, how is it that you know so much of Pax's activities? Are you there in his office to know whether he spends countless hours watching tapes of different players? Do you know of his every daily action enough to expound upon his management of time? You're actually still harping on him for not attending a completely meaningless HS all-star game in which you couldn't garner even a remote idea of what a player would be capable of at the NBA level?

I know you don't like Pax, but you're smarter than this. His drafting has been his only bright spot so far. I'll concede that he doens't seem to like HS kids. I'll also assert that he'd take another HS'er if that was the best choice for this team.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> Gotta weigh in here...
> ...


let me counter by saying this, how do you know Pax isnt the source? 

Again, being in Europe and knowing the community as such, I have a real good feel for who is going to what games and seeing which players. pax was in Spain and in Italy for a week during Feb. He came to israel for the euroleague final 4. Guys like Ainge and Mullin have been in Europe basically 4x longer then that.

As for the HS game, dont you think its a GMs job to watch the most talented HS class ever play? If you dont, then I have some some stuff to sell you.

Oh and by the way, why are such class franchises like the Clips going to watch these type of players when they dont know where they are going to pick? Also portland and Cleveland have been very active in attending these workouts. Whats our excuse now?


----------



## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Its not going at it. Its all about quoting what you want to hear and then covering your ears and saying blah blah blah to what you dont want to hear. Paxs comments are the most quoted on this page this year. Kismet wants to pretend like they werent said, but they were. There is no fight. Its hard to have an argument with someone who doesnt have an open enough mind to know that things were said that didnt paint such a great picture. And those comments were quoted to pax himself.





*LOL! That's a load of pigeon...*


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ahhh a picture of my boss. i remember when that happened. 


Do you read these boards or just post? Because if you read these boards, those quotes have been lingering for months on and off. Dont believe me, PM DC sometime and ask him if pax said it. Or are you just going to keep drinking the kool-aid?


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> Its not going at it. Its all about quoting what you want to hear and then covering your ears and saying blah blah blah to what you dont want to hear. Paxs comments are the most quoted on this page this year. Kismet wants to pretend like they werent said, but they were. There is no fight. Its hard to have an argument with someone who doesnt have an open enough mind to know that things were said that didnt paint such a great picture. And those comments were quoted to pax himself.


So you are Morpheus telling Neo to 'Free your mind...' :grinning:

Alright. I didn't mean it as 'going at it' in a negative way. I just meant that you and Kismet are two of this board's heavyweights and that watching you guys go back and forth on an issue is rather entertaining. Analogy aside that's the way I see things. As for Kismet, I have no issue with his views and even less issue with being somewhat selective in factors surrounding an argument. Every single one of us uses filters and schemas to back our own opinions that's just the nature of the game.

Pardon me for trying to influx a little humor  I'm bored and I'm ready for the weekend to start....


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

I actually tried a search for the famous quote and haven't found it. Basghetti had part of it in his signature for a while when he changed his name to InTheBlinkOfaDeng.


----------



## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> let me counter by saying this, how do you know Pax isnt the source?
> ...


So, you accept that it might not be Pax as the "source". I would hope you're savvy enough to know that the source was probably closer to being the night janitors wife that it was Pax.

It's interesting that you go after Kismet and tell him to have an open mind and yet you don't seem to have one. Someone with an open mind would accept that this "source" probably wasn't the GM of the team. Someone with an open mind would be open to suggestions that maybe the GM is doing things that you don't know about. Someone with an open mind wouldn't act as Judge, Jury and Executioner without knowing all the facts. Someone with an open mind would allow for a little time for the GM of his favorite team to find out what slot his team in picking at before railing on said GM for looking at second round prospects.

As for your HS game comment - no, I don't fault Pax for not going to the game. It was pointless. Now, if he doesn't bring in some of those kids to work out individually, then yes I'll be upset. I'll keep an open mind until then - maybe you could do the same?

I'd love to jab back and forth with ya RLucas - it's time to go home and enjoy the weekend. Have a good one!


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Here's the quote:

"I've seen alot of High school ball this year, and everyone of those kids that are projected to be in the top 15 picks this draft, EVERYONE of them could use at least a year of college. I've seen Duke practices this year, and Deng will be a player. Most of these high school kids dont have ANY pressure put on them. And I'll be honest with you, some of these kids that are going to be in the top 15 picks in the draft, they just dont try hard enough."

From an interview on The Score.

Here's the thread where we discussed it:

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79583&highlight=paxson+deng+player


----------



## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> So you are Morpheus telling Neo to 'Free your mind...' :grinning:


I'm sorry, superdave, but I can't...Uncle Jerry won't let me!


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> So, you accept that it might not be Pax as the "source". I would hope you're savvy enough to know that the source was probably closer to being the night janitors wife that it was Pax.
> ...


28 GMs attended that game, guess which one didnt. And thats ok? Someone doesnt have an open mind. 

A team like the Clippers is going to watch a ton of talent, and they dont know where they are picking, but it is ok for Pax to make a last second attempt to see players? Where is his open mind? 

I dont know who Fords source is, but I know he is connected in the NBA. I am sure its far closer to Pax then the Janitor. But then again, his tenure as Bulls GM as been filled with leaks so why shouldnt we believe it?


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> Here's the quote:
> 
> "I've seen alot of High school ball this year, and everyone of those kids that are projected to be in the top 15 picks this draft, EVERYONE of them could use at least a year of college. I've seen Duke practices this year, and Deng will be a player. Most of these high school kids dont have ANY pressure put on them. And I'll be honest with you, some of these kids that are going to be in the top 15 picks in the draft, they just dont try hard enough."
> ...


You beat me to it. That quote was taken right after the Morris/Howard match up on ESPN 2. That says it all as far as I can see. a kid from college knows how to work hard but most of the HSers in this crop dont know what hard work is. Sounds like a generalization to me. But to some, its the gospel. Preach on Reverend Paxson


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> I know you don't like Pax, but you're smarter than this. His drafting has been his only bright spot so far. I'll concede that he doens't seem to like HS kids. I'll also assert that he'd take another HS'er if that was the best choice for this team.


Not all drafting -- just that of Hinirch. What have his second round picks done, besides escape from Russia via sledding across the swiss border on a cello with a bullet hole in the side. 

Even the Hinrich pick, which I loved, does not form a core you can build around.


----------



## dsouljah9 (Jul 9, 2002)

He said <b>some</b> which in some cases is true. Most of them go through high school where everybody tells them "yes" to almost everything and only some programs such as Oak Hill push them.

Pax has also said...

"Three years ago, we went that route and we're still waiting for it to pay off," Paxson said, referring to college-skipping big men Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry, acquired on draft night in 2001.

"I'm not ready to rule anything out. But some things would have to happen to change the makeup of our team."


"Dwight Howard is physically gifted and has huge potential to be a star in this league, which is why you can't count him out," Paxson said. "He's not a LeBron (James), who you know can step in right away. But with his size and his skill level, he doesn't seem to be too far away. So everybody who has a top pick has to take a good hard look at him."

''We've already done a lot of work on these guys. Physically, Okafor is already ready to play in this league. He's got a great body, he's a real reactive kid on the floor and he'll make a difference in NBA games right away because he can defend and rebound. Howard is physically gifted and has huge potential to be a star in this league. That's why you can't count him out.'' 

"We owe it to ourselves to try to look at everybody we can because there are some unbelievably talented kids in this draft. "

Pax isn't being closed minded as many of you point him out to be. Also, the guys that they have been working out are second round possibilties with 32 and 38. They won't start working out the nig names until they know where they will draft.


----------



## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> Here's the quote:
> 
> "I've seen alot of High school ball this year, and everyone of those kids that are projected to be in the top 15 picks this draft, EVERYONE of them could use at least a year of college. I've seen Duke practices this year, and Deng will be a player. Most of these high school kids dont have ANY pressure put on them. And I'll be honest with you, some of these kids that are going to be in the top 15 picks in the draft, they just dont try hard enough."
> ...


Thanks very much, DMD. There seems to be a lot of room to interpret these remarks. My own view of what was said is that the top high school kids are so good that they're rarely challenged and consequently they don't have to try very hard to succeed. Now that doesn't mean they don't have a good work ethic. The game just comes easy to them compared to most of their peers.

Deng, on the other hand as an 18 year old has to compete in practice and in games against nationally recruited players who may be as much as three years his senior. I'm guessing that those circumstances require him to exert himself much more than the top HS'ers have to during most of their regular season games and practices. Perhaps his point was that if you put some of the top high school players on the practice floor with the Duke team you'd get a better read of what they were capable of. And quite obviously, under those circumstances they'd have to work much harder to compete successfully.

That's how I read these statements. But again, interpretation is often very subjective. Rlucas is certainly entitled to his own subjective interpretation, as long as he concedes that its an interpretation and not a statement of fact.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> Thanks very much, DMD. There seems to be a lot of room to interpret these remarks. My own view of what was said is that the top high school kids are so good that they're rarely challenged and consequently they don't have to try very hard to succeed. Now that doesn't mean they don't have good work ethics. The game just comes easy to them compared to most of their peers.
> ...


Fair enough. But shouldnt you also be acknowledging that he make a generalization without really knowing all the facts? 

Also i want to state I attended the Hoops Summit Practices, which Paxson didnt, and thought to myself how tremendously hard these kids work. Josh Smith and Marvin Williams in particular busted their asses. As a division one college basketball player who played with 3 guys who had NBA careers, I can tell you they worked as hard anyone I have seen. So to me, and my unique perspective, Pax made a comment here that quite simply a mass over generalization.


----------



## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Fair enough. But shouldnt you also be acknowledging that he make a generalization without really knowing all the facts?
> ...


Of course he was speaking in broad, general terms. And if you look back on his remarks he used the words "most" and "some." Those words absolutely allow him to engage in generalizations. I don't see where there's anything wrong with that. And actually, rlucas, if you take a look at when he made those remarks (February) I'm not so sure if he's even allowed to mention a high school player by name. That interview was conducted in the middle of the HS basketball season. I'm only guessing here, but I wouldn't be surprised if pro personnel were prohibited from commenting in public on specific high school players. It could be interpreted as a way of persuading a kid to turn pro. And if there is no such rule, then there should be.

My point is, I think he spoke in general terms intentionally. How much he knows about each high school prospect is something you and I can only guess at. I just doubt he'd ever make specific remarks about a particular high school prospect until at least _after_ each player's state tournament had concluded.

Can anyone clear this matter up? Are pro personnel prohibited from making public comments about specific high school players? And if so, when can they start to discuss them by name?


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> Of course he was speaking in broad, general terms. And if you look back on his remarks he used the words "most" and "some." Those words absolutely allow him to engage in generalizations. I don't see where there's anything wrong with that. And actually, rlucas, if you take a look at when he made those remarks (February) I'm not so sure if he's even allowed to mention a high school player by name. That interview was conducted in the middle of the HS basketball season. I'm only guessing here, but I wouldn't be surprised if pro personnel were prohibited from commenting in public on specific high school players. It could be interpreted as a way of persuading a kid to turn pro. And if there is no such rule, then there should be.
> ...


Whats interesting here Kismet, is that he is able to complement Deng, an underclassman, and not mention a HS player? I think the rules apply on both sides, for good or bad. whether its written or not, I dont know. But I know Jordan got a slap in the wrist for playing pickup with lebron who was a jr in HS. Your not allowed to comment, or influence, someone whose class is not graduating. 

This comment was made the day after the Howard Morris matchup. You can read into that anyway you want. But its quite clear to me, that that matchup was on his mind


----------



## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

When I read the quote, it seemed like Pax was giving his assessment of this draft class in particular, and not necessarily making a broad, sweeping generalization that all college players will always be better than high school ones. The quote never really bothered me, and when you put it alongside some of the other things he has said, I don't think it would be fair to say that Pax is completely opposed to drafting a high school player.

With that being said, however, I think that right now Pax would rather bring in someone with some experience who can help right away. And generally speaking, I think I agree with him. The team, as currently constructed, isn't really conducive to incubating undeveloped talent, because we already have too much of it. And I agree with Pax that if we were to draft a high schooler and seriously commit to developing him, we probably would have to change the makeup of our team. This is assuming that none of these guys are going to be able to come in and make a Lebron or Amare type impact, and it doesn't seem to me like any of them are likely to do that. Of course, I really don't know a whole lot about any of these guys outside of what I have read, so I'll be the first to admit that my opinion isn't nearly as educated as some of the other posters here.

Generally speaking, I don't really have a problem with Pax's opinions on this team, because I think they're correct for the most part. I just worry that he's too liberal giving them out, and he ends up putting himself in a corner. We'll see.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

This thread is just the beginning....

I've been saying a lot of these things for months...

What's funny is the same people that don't want to believe the source involved in this, WOULD believe the source if they were saying the opposite.

It's just as RL put it, you listen to what sounds good, but cover your ears and yell blah blah blah with what you don't want to hear.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Just to throw in my oar, no way Paxson himself goes chatting to Chad Ford, laying out specifically who he will or won't pick. I just don't buy it. I have no proof, but I don't buy it.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> Just to throw in my oar, no way Paxson himself goes chatting to Chad Ford, laying out specifically who he will or won't pick. I just don't buy it. I have no proof, but I don't buy it.


Did anyone say the source was Pax?

I read a "it could have been", but I don't think it was, do I believe what the source supposedly said?

Hell yes, is there a reason I shouldn't?


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> Just to throw in my oar, no way Paxson himself goes chatting to Chad Ford, laying out specifically who he will or won't pick. I just don't buy it. I have no proof, but I don't buy it.


mate, your probably right. However, his front office has multiple leaks. Leaks very close to him. I know 2 different people who basically confirm each other with 2 different sources. I mean, how do we know that Jagla outplayed Frieje? Or that Jackson did well? these leaks basically speak for Pax. They are very close.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Did anyone say the source was Pax?
> ...


Ford just said it was a Bulls source in his article. A few pages back in the thread, there was a debate as to whether or not the source could be Paxson. 

I just wonder why these "sources" would give information to somebody like Chad Ford if it compromised the position of the team, which to some small degree it does. Why would Paxson, the Bulls, or any other franchise tolerate that? Or is the organization so large that they can't determine the snitch? 

I just don't get it, as usual.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Ford just said it was a Bulls source in his article. A few pages back in the thread, there was a debate as to whether or not the source could be Paxson.
> ...


The question no one could answer is why should we NOT believe this "source"?

We know what Pax has said in the past, we know it's a Bulls source, this is Chad Ford, the guy doesn't talk nonsense, and the guy is EVERYWHERE, he actually knows the players, he knows his stuff, if this weren't true, I don't see Chad Ford writing it.

Again, my question is above, if we can find a reasonable answer to it, and I'm not sure we can, then maybe I could see the other side.

Right now I can't.

I've said it before, this draft is all about the Euros and HS kids, but we're drooling over Okafor, Deng, Duhon, and Luke Jackson.

Meanwhile the Clippers have seen JR Smith, Ohmerzodic, Araujo, and others...

Doesn't that put a ? in your head?


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Ford just said it was a Bulls source in his article. A few pages back in the thread, there was a debate as to whether or not the source could be Paxson.
> ...


well the counter is, Pax doesnt run a clean ship at all. During Krauses day, love him or hate him, there was no leaks, no moves telegraphed, nothing said about underclassman (His comments about Deng are a clear tampering), clean, tight and by the book. The media hated Krause for it. Paxson hasnt met an interview that he doesnt like. And I can tell you for a fact that he has leaks running amok there. How the heck did I know that Jackson had a good workout? Or that Freije got dusted by Jagla? And we are talking about a nobody in me. I am 1 degree seperated from the Bulls workouts, and that isnt a good sign. Pax is out there talking rather then getting his *** to Brazil to watch a couple of players or to europe to see a kid like Omerhodzic (before he got here). 

He spends his time looking at second rounders when the CLIPPERS, YES THE CLIPPERS, are lookng at lottery picks. Here is the thing, people have schedules, teams make promises and players have agendas. He should be looking at draft picks now. If he is picking 5 in this draft, its quite possible that he gets one look at a kid like Josh Smith, maybe none, if his schedule doesnt allow it. With proms and graduations coming out, you need to take this time to see any player you can. And see them again if you can. This approach is half ***, and no one could spin in it any other way. What if a team like Phoenix gives Biedrins a promise? and they pick 7 and we pick 5. Guess what happens? Biedrins will just cancel all his workouts. And we will never know if he was worth it or not because we arent taking advantage of this time now. This has happened alot believe it or not. And I cant understand the total lack of effort in our front office. I just cant at all.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

For all the crap people talk about the Clippers, and yes I am a fan of the Clips, we could only dream of having a scouting department like they do...

These guys found Pavel in Siberia, that's just RIDICULOUS.

We've had some bad drafts and made some ? moves, but many teams have, I've seen us being called Clippers East, but IMO that's a compliment that's not deserved.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> For all the crap people talk about the Clippers, and yes I am a fan of the Clips, we could only dream of having a scouting department like they do...
> 
> These guys found Pavel in Siberia, that's just RIDICULOUS.
> ...


they actually have become fairly active overseas believe it or not. They took Jaric and now have Sofoklis in waiting. They seem to understand that basketball is an international game and not one just played by college seniors here in the US


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

the CLIPPERS today looked at Sebastian Telfair against Jameer Nelson while we were looking at 2 kids from the school of the blind

Sarcasm intended


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Seriously the Clippers are active...

We've looked at JR Smith, Ohmerzodic, Araujo, Harrison, Telfair, Nelson in the past 3-4 days...

We're watching Matt Freije vs. Jan Jagla?

At some point, you have to start scratching your heads...


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Seriously the Clippers are active...
> 
> We've looked at JR Smith, Ohmerzodic, Araujo, Harrison, Telfair, Nelson in the past 3-4 days...
> ...


actually no mate, Paxson has a plan. :uhoh:


----------



## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

Bulls will not be a contender for the next four years, as minimum. At this point, we have no other choice than take a risk by drafting “another” potential superstar. 

We have a solid reliable PG and Curry will be a good center, but unfortunately they are not going play on the same level as KG, Tim, Shaq, Kobe, Iverson, TMc, James… .

So, we need to gamble again and increase amount of probability to draft a future uperstar.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> We are talking one year of college ball. Its not the holy grail. And in Basgs case, his claim is that Deng is more ready cause of this. The counter is, he has only played 4 years of organized ball. My gut is that every HSer has played more. Deng is as much a project as any HS kid.
> ...


i dont really care for deng as some super prospect but i feel the need to debunk that misconception , he is not nearly as raw as people like to think. He made england's 15 and under team at 13 , about the same age eddy curry dropped gymnastics and picked up a basketball because he was tall, no one claims eddy is super raw and doesn't have that much playing under his belt, so much to the point there must be something extra to his game because of it , but i am pretty sure he wouldn't have made chicago's 15 and under team at 13 

deng is alot more refined than people want to believe.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bulls96</b>!
> Bulls will not be a contender for the next four years, as minimum. At this point, we have no other choice than take a risk by drafting “another” potential superstar.
> 
> We have a solid reliable PG and Curry will be a good center, but unfortunately they are not going play on the same level as KG, Tim, Shaq, Kobe, Iverson, TMc, James… .
> ...


Bingo

And there are plenty of potential superstars in this draft. We just arent looking at them yet. Id rather have 3 cracks at it then 1. But thats just me


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> i dont really care for deng as some super prospect but i feel the need to debunk that misconception , he is not nearly as raw as people like to think. He made england's 15 and under team at 13 , about the same age eddy curry dropped gymnastics and picked up a basketball because he was tall, no one claims eddy is super raw and doesn't have that much playing under his belt, so much to the point there must be something extra to his game because of it , but i am pretty sure he wouldn't have made chicago's 15 and under team at 13
> ...


My point is, you cant say Deng is a complete player cause he played one year at Duke and not say the same thing about Wright or Smith or Howard cause they havent and then come up with some excuse like they dont know how to work hard. Its a cop out. Its the easy way out. My gut is pax doesnt know the first thing about any of the HSers workethics. Like I said, I was at the Nike shindig a couple of months back, and there was nothing, not a thing, to indicate that any of those kids were lazy. In fact Smith played Marvin Williams for 90 minutes after practice ended. But our excuse is to label them lazy. My guess is that all of these kids work as hard as anyone else. Look at Telfair and Smith recently. They are working out with SFX to get ready for this draft. These kids are not lazy. one year at Duke doesnt instantly make you a hard worker.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> The question no one could answer is why should we NOT believe this "source"?
> ...


You know, that's the first time I think I've ever seen a statement to that effect


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> My point is, you cant say Deng is a complete player cause he played one year at Duke and not say the same thing about Wright or Smith or Howard cause they havent and then come up with some excuse like they dont know how to work hard. Its a cop out. Its the easy way out. My gut is pax doesnt know the first thing about any of the HSers workethics. Like I said, I was at the Nike shindig a couple of months back, and there was nothing, not a thing, to indicate that any of those kids were lazy. In fact Smith played Marvin Williams for 90 minutes after practice ended. But our excuse is to label them lazy. My guess is that all of these kids work as hard as anyone else. Look at Telfair and Smith recently. They are working out with SFX to get ready for this draft. These kids are not lazy. one year at Duke doesnt instantly make you a hard worker.


on that i do agree , it is a cop out .


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Really Pax is right, high schoolers don't work hard...

Telfair left school 3 weeks ago to train with his brother, Jamel Thomas, and the pro team he plays for in Greece...


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> this is Chad Ford, the guy doesn't talk nonsense, and the guy is EVERYWHERE, he actually knows the players, he knows his stuff, if this weren't true, I don't see Chad Ford writing it.


I see no inconsistencies here 



> Meanwhile the Clippers have seen JR Smith, Ohmerzodic, Araujo, and others...
> 
> Doesn't that put a ? in your head?


Yeah, it almost gives me the impression the Clippers are anticipating trading down


----------

