# The Pac-10



## TucsonClip

The Pac-10 is 23-10 and has losses to...

Portland
San Diego
Oral Roberts
CS Fullerton
Lyola Marymount
Texas A&M Corpus Christi
Sacramento State

Its not even Thanksgiving.

BTW so much for Craig Robinson being the hot up and comer in the Pac-10, what a joke.


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## kansasalumn

stilll early


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## JuniorNoboa

kansasalumn said:


> stilll early


Actually that's false. About 30% of the non ceonference schedule for the Pac-10 teams have been played. There conference ranking is poor (Pomeroy has them at 10 so far).

And eveyone should realize that if your conference struggles OOC it really restricts the ability of a conference to get many RPI top 50 teams.

PAC-10 has to pick up the pace alot before the end of December, as alot of damage has already been done. If not 10-8 and 11-7 records in conference are going to mean very little.


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## TucsonClip

Those are some terrible loses and they will kill the conference RPI. This is what happens when the conference is drained of all its marquee freshman year after year.

I was still convinced the Pac-10 get 4 teams in this year. While it still may happen, Noboa is right. 10-8 is definitely going to be a must in order to be on the bubble.


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## kansasalumn

yes it is early. only been ONE WEEK of basketball!!!!!!!


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## JuniorNoboa

kansasalumn said:


> yes it is early. only been ONE WEEK of basketball!!!!!!!


Its actually been two weeks after today - the OOC season when you consider christmas break is only six to seven weeks long. And the OOC season is CRITICAL in determining the subsequent fates of member teams come tourney time... a bad OOC season by a conference as a whole, reduces each individuals members final RPI's, final SOS, and ability to get top fifty wins. 

To simplify things 

10 teams * 11 games = 110 total out of conference games
33 games played to date
33/110 = 30%


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## SheriffKilla

Pac 10 does suck this season but some of the losses are kind of flukes
Like the UCLA loss was expected for a team that starts a bunch of guys that barelly played last season they will put it together as the season goes on and they learn to play with each other


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## kansasalumn

whatever one week or two weeks it is still early in basketball season,


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## Rather Unique

'09-10 version of the SEC '08-09?
it's kinda early, although as JN pointed not quite as early as it seems, and the conference has already dug itself a hole. Definitely looks to be a downer yr for the Pac 10.


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## TucsonClip

The Pac-10 was going to be down as whole this year, but those losses, early or not, are still terrible.


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## TucsonClip

Add Montana to the list of teams to beat a Pac-10 team.


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## Willo

Some of those losses might not end up being too bad in the long run, but there's no way losing to Montana is good.


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## Nimreitz

TucsonClip said:


> Add Montana to the list of teams to beat a Pac-10 team.


Add Oregon to my **** list, because they ****ed up a big parlay for me. How the **** do you lose at home to Montana?


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## thatsnotgross

Damn, I was hoping Craig Robinson take the Depaul job in a couple of years.


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## SheriffKilla

Wow no posts today surprising
Some good interesting games today
Anyway UCLA is getting blown out by Portland
The Pac 10 is horrible


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## bball2223

League sucks this year, especially UCLA. I don't know whats going on there, but there is way too much talent to be this bad.


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## TucsonClip

Nimreitz said:


> Add Oregon to my **** list, because they ****ed up a big parlay for me. How the **** do you lose at home to Montana?


You lose at home to Montana by keeping Ernie Kent 3 years after he should have been fired.


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## HKF

Yeah this league is pathetically bad this year. I am talking C-USA level bad. The only good team in this league is Washington IMO.


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## TucsonClip

The league has been stripped of all its talent.

Jerryd Bayless
OJ Mayo
Brandon Jennings
Russell Westbrook
James Harden
Demar Derozan
Jordan Hill
Jrue Holiday
Kevin Love
Brook Lopez
Robin Lopez
Ryan Anderson

Those guys are all underclassmen except Jordan Hill, he was a junior. Every single one of them was a first round pick, all were lotto picks but Holiday and Anderson.


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## HKF

Budinger and Hill would be seniors this year. It's just amazing. Spencer Hawes would be a senior as well.


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## TucsonClip

HKF said:


> Budinger and Hill would be seniors this year. It's just amazing. Spencer Hawes would be a senior as well.


Yeah I didnt even go back to that class, but Hawes was amazing as a freshman and left right away. The Pac-10 has definitely produced an amazing amount of NBA talent in the last 5 years.


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## SheriffKilla

HKF said:


> Yeah this league is pathetically bad this year. I am talking C-USA level bad. The only good team in this league is Washington IMO.


Cal has had some tough losses early on but I think they will be a pretty good team when march rolls around
Especially with the lack of competition in the Pac10 they should have a nice record


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## TucsonClip

Add Long Beach St to the list. They beat UCLA by 11.

Ben Howland's offense shines again...


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## SheriffKilla

Wow last years UCLA class is turning out to be pathetic
Lee, Gordon, Morgan, Anderson ... what happened ??
Its sad when Michael Roll is your playmaker on offense


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## Willo

Last in the 76 Classic? Wow, how the mighty have fallen.


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## TucsonClip

Thats what happens when Ben Howland just thinks he can be the last one to offer every kid a scholarship and still land them.

The guy can recruit anywhere in the country and look how many SoCal kids he has on his teams.


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## TM

Bad to worse for UCLA. Jeff Goodman just posted on his twitter that Drew Gordon is transferring.


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## TucsonClip

Gordon is gone, UCLA is in serious trouble right now.

I would say Gordon was probably UCLA's best player, but he and Howland were not kind to each other to say the least.


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## TM

didn't it come down to UCLA and Kansas for him?


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## TucsonClip

UCLA, Washington and Arizona. No way Howland releases him to a Pac-10 school


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## SheriffKilla

Wow UCLA is done... Oh my after 3 straight final 4s does Howland have a chance to be fired? Of course not this season but he needs to turn it around next season
I think Howlands ego got too big like Tucson said not going after recruits until the last moment and now this thing with Gordon


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## thatsnotgross

Can you explain further about Howland's last minute recruiting?


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## SheriffKilla

Im not gonna act like Im a huge expert on the topic but basically he doesnt seem to pursue guys aggresively on a national scale
I mean UCLA just went to 3 final 4s and has one of the best (if not the best) traditions in the country and all Howlands ends up with is Cali kids that there is a good chance they would have gone to UCLA no matter who coach is and no matter who pursued them
Granted he still got some highly touted players but he is no RoyWill, Calipari, Self when it comes to recruiting
He did also get J.Morgan but he seems to be a bust so far
Westbrook, Collison, Shipp, Affalo and Farmar were all local kids and Kevin Love had some heavy ties with UCLA through his AAU team

Malcolm Lee, Jerime Anderson, Holiday, Gordon all cali guys as well


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## thatsnotgross

I heard that Gordon was a hothead, attitude problems. Thats not going to fly with Howland, especially when he went to 3 Final Fours.


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## TM

Josh Smith, Mike Moser, J'mison Morgan... your argument isn't valid, fjkdsi. BTW, ask John Wooden how not recruiting in nationally worked out for him. And even though he's my coaching idol, it wasn't the pyramid of success that won him all those national titles. And no, it wasn't _just_ Lew Alcindor and Bill Walton either.


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## TucsonClip

thatsnotgross said:


> Can you explain further about Howland's last minute recruiting?


When you go back and look at the high caliber players Howland was after, there were a lot of impact players who he simply was the last one to offer. 

For example, he could have easily had James Harden, but was the last one to offer him. Imagine that '07 team with Harden... He was the last one to offer Josh Smith, even though every coach in the nation wanted him and he has been UCLA good for years. The same thing is going on with Terrance Jones and UCLA. Jones could start on nearly any team in the country next year and Howland was the last one in on him.


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## TucsonClip

thatsnotgross said:


> I heard that Gordon was a hothead, attitude problems. Thats not going to fly with Howland, especially when he went to 3 Final Fours.


Gordon is definitely a hot head and called out Howland and his offense last year as a freshman in the media. The funny thing is, he is right about Howland's offense. Howland is the reason why guys like Farmar, Collison, Mbah a Moute, Shipp, Westbrook, Holiday, and now Gordon couldnt wait to get out of Westwood.


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## TucsonClip

TM said:


> Josh Smith, Mike Moser, J'mison Morgan... your argument isn't valid, fjkdsi. BTW, ask John Wooden how not recruiting in nationally worked out for him. And even though he's my coaching idol, it wasn't the pyramid of success that won him all those national titles. And no, it wasn't _just_ Lew Alcindor and Bill Walton either.


He is prety much right though. Howland locks down SoCal, which is fine. However, when you look at his team now and see the players who got out of SoCal that could definitely hlep his team this season, not to mention the other recruits across the nation he blew it with.

If it werent for what happened with UA, Moser would be at Arizona. Morgan hasnt shown anything, while players who have gotten out of SoCal would be playing over these guys. UCLA got Josh Smith by default, and Howland took forever tyo jump on board with him.

Howland isnt getting fired anytime soon, but I think he is starting to realize what went wrong over the last few classes with missed evaluations and just not being on the ball with some of the stud recruits on the west coast.

Howland's style of play really hinders the players after they arrive on campus. If Howland was an uptempo coach he could be picking recruits on the west coast like Calipari and Roy do across the nation.


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## zagsfan20

I'm hearing the Zags are going hard after Gordon.


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## TucsonClip

zagsfan20 said:


> I'm hearing the Zags are going hard after Gordon.


Makes sense. Good fit and the right style of play. He is a nutcase, but thats another topic.


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## zagsfan20

TucsonClip said:


> Makes sense. Good fit and the right style of play. He is a nutcase, but thats another topic.


People said the same thing about Micah Downs and that turned out just fine. Players with any kind of brain know when they transfer that they're running thin of options and they tend to be on their best behavior. Few's coaching style tends to not rub players the wrong way either.


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## SheriffKilla

TucsonClip said:


> He is prety much right though. Howland locks down SoCal, which is fine. However, when you look at his team now and see the players who got out of SoCal that could definitely hlep his team this season, not to mention the other recruits across the nation he blew it with.
> 
> If it werent for what happened with UA, Moser would be at Arizona. Morgan hasnt shown anything, while players who have gotten out of SoCal would be playing over these guys. UCLA got Josh Smith by default, and Howland took forever tyo jump on board with him.
> 
> Howland isnt getting fired anytime soon, but I think he is starting to realize what went wrong over the last few classes with missed evaluations and just not being on the ball with some of the stud recruits on the west coast.
> 
> Howland's style of play really hinders the players after they arrive on campus. If Howland was an uptempo coach he could be picking recruits on the west coast like Calipari and Roy do across the nation.


Exactly these guys that went to UCLA would have gone there if I was coach it didnt take much convincing
However he did find some gems in Collison, Westbrook and even Mbah a moute but its not like those guys had much choice of major programs outside of UCLA


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## TM

i still don't agree

and the argument still isn't good. you're talking about 2 separate things - recruiting and keeping guys at the program. UCLA has always gone after guys from california so don't fault the guy from being smart and staying in state. all those guys you mentioned - add in some guy names Love - and put them with the california guys and that's a formula for success.

i'm not disagreeing about the coaching style, but come on. they guy went to 3 straight final fours and has gotten several top 10 classes. every now and then a group isn't good.


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## thatsnotgross

I don't get it. Howland is a coach that emphasizes defense. He is like another mold of Jeff Van Gundy. Defense, defense and more defense. His game is slowing down the game to a crawl and win with defense. Why is every recruit so oblivious to this fact? If they went there and still pissed off about the offense, then its their fault for not figuring out that Howland is a defensive minded coach.


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## SheriffKilla

He has been a great a coach in years past but when you are a storied program and playing as bad as UCLA has been so far this season and one of your best players leaves that raises questions about the coach no matter who that coach is. So I added a few more things that Howland hasnt done a great job at, which are:
Running a stagnant offense
Recruiting nationally (in comparison to other big name coaches)
And being late to get to recruits (which I didnt realize until Tucson brought it up, but I see where he is going with it)


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## TucsonClip

zagsfan20 said:


> People said the same thing about Micah Downs and that turned out just fine. Players with any kind of brain know when they transfer that they're running thin of options and they tend to be on their best behavior. Few's coaching style tends to not rub players the wrong way either.


Gordon is a different kind of nut. He is very demonstrative on the court and when is the last time you heard a freshman call out a coach and his offense in the media, let alone as a freshman?

Good fit, but Gordon needs to be handled with extreme caution because he is... different.


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## TucsonClip

TM said:


> i still don't agree
> 
> and the argument still isn't good. you're talking about 2 separate things - recruiting and keeping guys at the program. UCLA has always gone after guys from california so don't fault the guy from being smart and staying in state. all those guys you mentioned - add in some guy names Love - and put them with the california guys and that's a formula for success.
> 
> i'm not disagreeing about the coaching style, but come on. they guy went to 3 straight final fours and has gotten several top 10 classes. every now and then a group isn't good.


The thing is the core of those Final Four teams were very good recruting evaluations that led to very good players coming in. Mbah a Moute was a great find, Collison and Farmar would have wound up at Arizona but UA passed on both of them and they landed at UCLA. Shipp was a good find and fit for that system.

The problem isnt recruiting SoCal kids, its the evaluation process. Keefe, Dragovic, Anderson, Morgan, ect are all guys who are playing a roll on this years UCLA team that were buried on the bench for good reason the last few years. After those runs to the Final Four, there is no excuse for Howland having missed so badly on his evaluations and blown some important recruiting classes. Howland would have had James Harden, but waited till the end before seriously recruiting him. The same happened to Josh Smith, but he wanted to go to UCLA regardless, Ray McCallum, Terrance Jones, Jordan Hamilton, Avery Bradley, ect...

Howland is a good coach, but his recruiting mistakes and late offers to stud SoCal players are showing right now. His roster is a mess, he doesnt have a PG, he has to start Mike Roll, and worst of all the players he recruited cant run his defensive system.


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## TucsonClip

thatsnotgross said:


> I don't get it. Howland is a coach that emphasizes defense. He is like another mold of Jeff Van Gundy. Defense, defense and more defense. His game is slowing down the game to a crawl and win with defense. Why is every recruit so oblivious to this fact? If they went there and still pissed off about the offense, then its their fault for not figuring out that Howland is a defensive minded coach.


The recruits dont do the type of research they should be doing. They see UCLA winning and players going in the lottery. However, they dont see what happens in practice or what the players say when Howland runs the same play the entire game. 

Russell Westbrook mentioned it last year. He was used to only running the same play over and over and isnt used to looking to the coach for directions. All these UCLA guys wanted out beacuse the system is based around defense and efficiency in the half court. This is the reason it was imperative for Arizona to land a coach with an uptempo offense to offer recruits a high profile program on the west coast where the system appeals to top level recruits.


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## TucsonClip

Just wanted everyone to get an idea of what kind of apple Drew Gordon is...



> Freshman forward Drew Gordon said Howland should reconsider his offensive approach to suit the talents of his team. Gordon said he would like to see UCLA turn into an "up-and-down" team along the lines of the Villanova squad that pounded out an 89-69 victory in the second round of the NCAA Tournament on Saturday.
> 
> "In all honesty, I think he's going to have to change a couple of things," Gordon said. "I think the mentality of the team next year is we don't work well in the half-court set. We're used to the run-and-gun. We're not programmed into slow-grinding it out there."





> Drew Gordon can be, in his parents' words, "opinionated" and "vocal." He has also been given to flashes of temper on the court.
> 
> But Ed Gordon stopped short of calling the relationship between Drew and Howland stormy. More to the point, he said, his son had grown increasingly disenchanted with the Bruins' style of basketball, which features a measured offensive pace.
> 
> "His athleticism always has shined more in an up-and-down tempo," Ed Gordon said. "That's not exactly what the UCLA system is about."


There are also reports that Gordon cussed out Ben Howland after subbing him out of a game earlier this season. Another report stated that Gordon was upset about being subbed out against Long Beach and walked past the bench and into the locker room.


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## SheriffKilla

Good interesting game between Arizona and UNLV this was like watching a city game 3 fairfax HS guys and Bellfield and Justin Hawkins and I gotta say Trevon Willis is legit


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## thatsnotgross

New mexico and Zags beat California and Washington St. respectively. The slide continues. And Washington got some nice games coming up, Texas Tech (haven't been tested yet) 12/03, Georgetown (haven't been tested yet) 12/12, Portland 12/19, and Texas AM 12/22. All home games except Texas Tech.


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## Willo

At least New Mexico and Gonzaga are quality teams. Meanwhile, that Portland game would be a lot bigger had they not laid an egg against Portland St.


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## TucsonClip

UA should have won that game against UNLV and it shouldnt have went to double OT. That is what happens when you have to rely on freshman as your talent base. UA drops 2 heatbreakers already (Wisconsin and UNLV), both tournament teams. The sad thing is, normally I would say UA needs those wins to get in the tournament, but all they have to do is finish 3rd in the terrible Pac-10 and they have a shot.


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## kansasalumn

zagsfan20 said:


> People said the same thing about Micah Downs and that turned out just fine. Players with any kind of brain know when they transfer that they're running thin of options and they tend to be on their best behavior. Few's coaching style tends to not rub players the wrong way either.


downs is a fine player, but he was a "baby" here in Lawrence when he is not getting a playing time as KU had a better player in B Rush


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## kansasalumn

some say that KU will whip UCLA by 30-40. I can see a win more more than 15 and more likely hood around 3-7 point win over UCLA. It is at Pauley, and the only test Kansas had was Memphis for the second game of the year. If UCLA plays zone it will be a tight game


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## TucsonClip

Texas Tech knocks off Washington...


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## HKF

Arizona State lost at home to Baylor and Texas blasted USC. Man, this league is awful.


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## TM

Will they really get more than 1 bid?


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## TucsonClip

They get at least 2 and I definitely think 3. Considering how bad the conference is, you could definitely see 4 teams, because I seriously doubt UW or Cal win the Pac-10 tournament.


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## TucsonClip

Missouri whips Oregon 106-69.

Im not sure why some thought oregon would be good this year. They were terrible last year and Ernie Kent has overstayed his welcome by 3 years. Doubt Belotti keeps him around much longer.


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## JuniorNoboa

Things have actually got worse. 

The Pac-10 as a conference is 4-26 versus RPI top 100 teams!!!! They have not beat one team who is positioned to be an at=large in the NCAA tournament.

As a CONFERENCE, the four showcase wins are:
#67 LSU (Neutral) (Arizona St)
# 84 Washington St. 
#85 Pacific (Road) (Cal)
#92 Murray St (Home) (Cal)

NOT ONE TEAM HAS WON AN OUT OF CONFERENCE GAME THAT WOULD IMPRESS THE COMMITTEE. NOT EVEN ONE!!!

A 13-5 record in the PAC-10 will be utterly meaningless to the committee, because a team would not have any significant number of quality victories in conference, and none out of conference.

If the same team wins the regular season and tournament title, a one bid league becomes a real possibility. Two the most likely scenario. 

But one is more likely then three,


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## Willo

Right now I'd put them at a two bid league: Washington and California. Neither would be higher than a six seed, either.


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## coolpohle

Yeah, they are looking like a two bid league, but behind Glasser and Lockett I wouldn't be surprised if Arizona St. started to work their way into the mix and some point.

Cal will work themselves into better than a six seed when all is said and done. They faced some tough competition in New York but they should steamroll through this conference.


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## SheriffKilla

JuniorNoboa said:


> As a CONFERENCE, the four showcase wins are:
> #67 LSU (Neutral) (Arizona St)
> # 84 Washington St.
> #85 Pacific (Road) (Cal)
> #92 Murray St (Home) (Cal)


What was the 4th which isnt Washington State I assume or there is only 3?


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## Willo

Washington State beat San Diego.


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## TucsonClip

The Pac-10 tournament is going to be insane this year. Every team in the top 8 has a shot at the automatic bid.


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## HB

That Tenn win by USC was huge. Definitely helps their chances. Looks like Alex Stephenson is turning into a star on that coast.


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## coolpohle

Arizona St. with a nice win over San Diego St. It's hard to imagine them losing more than four conference games. 

A nice win for USC indeed, but we're looking at a team lacking in talent with home losses to Loyola Marymount and Nebraska on their resume. They would have to go 13-5 in conference play just to be in the discussion. That seems pretty farfetched.


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## TucsonClip

If ASU wins 14 conference games, that goes to show how bad the Pac-10 is. ASU has one player who would start on most of the teams in the other BCS conferences.

They are definitely better than I thought they would be so far, but I will be shocked if they win 14+.


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## coolpohle

TucsonClip said:


> If ASU wins 14 conference games, that goes to show how bad the Pac-10 is. ASU has one player who would start on most of the teams in the other BCS conferences.
> 
> They are definitely better than I thought they would be so far, but I will be shocked if they win 14+.


I'm not so sure about that. Glasser is obviously the one you are talking about, Kuksiks has played very well in an expanded role this year, and Lockett looks like a decent freshman. Boateng isn't great, but he's not bad, and McMillan is an excellent shooter.

I'm trying to find five conference games for them to lose and I just can't do it. I suppose maybe they get swept by both Cal and Washington but odds are they win one of those four games. Maybe they lose @ Washington St.? I can't see anyone else they'd lose to.


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## TucsonClip

Nic Wise hits a buzzer beater in OT. UA beats Lipscomb 83-82...

Wow


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## TucsonClip

coolpohle said:


> I'm not so sure about that. Glasser is obviously the one you are talking about, Kuksiks has played very well in an expanded role this year, and Lockett looks like a decent freshman. Boateng isn't great, but he's not bad, and McMillan is an excellent shooter.
> 
> I'm trying to find five conference games for them to lose and I just can't do it. I suppose maybe they get swept by both Cal and Washington but odds are they win one of those four games. Maybe they lose @ Washington St.? I can't see anyone else they'd lose to.


Glasser is the guy im talking about and Kuksiks would be the only other one. Lockett is decent and Boateng is not good at all. ASU has very little talent, but Herb's system keeps them in games. They sit in a 2-3 match up zone and bore you to sleep on offense before they score on a back cut or 3.

ASU could lose to multiple teams. I think SC beats them, because Dwight Lewis will go off on their zone and Stephenson will be enough to keep them honest inside. I think they lose 2-3 from UW and Cal alone. I can definitely see Stanford giving them a run for their money with Landry Fields getting hot from 3pt. I also really think UA beats them this year and I cant see them sweeping UCLA. 

I can see them going 11-7 but I cant see anyone winning 14+ conference games besides Washington.


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## coolpohle

Randle-Christopher-Boykin. Sorry, but despite a shaky early season performance in New York, I still think Cal is the class of the conference. I'd be very surprised if someone else won the regular season title.

Arizona St. played very well again last night. I mean, if Arizona needs a buzzer beater at home in OT to beat Lipscomb, how are they going to beat Arizona St.? I just don't see it. Time will tell, I guess.


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## SheriffKilla

Yep, Cal is still the best in the conference along with Washington but Arizona State is probably 3rd at this point. They dont have any stars, but all 5 starters are solid plus Ty Abbott is ok.


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## TucsonClip

coolpohle said:


> Randle-Christopher-Boykin. Sorry, but despite a shaky early season performance in New York, I still think Cal is the class of the conference. I'd be very surprised if someone else won the regular season title.
> 
> Arizona St. played very well again last night. I mean, if Arizona needs a buzzer beater at home in OT to beat Lipscomb, how are they going to beat Arizona St.? I just don't see it. Time will tell, I guess.


Cal definitely has the talent to win the conference, however I think UW has just as much and more depth.

Well in that logic, how is Arizona ever going to win another game? Teams have ups and downs and right now UA is not playing well. Why or how will UA beat ASU? They will have the best player on the court and 3 out of the 5 best. ASU is definitely a better basketball team right now, no question. When it comes down to it, I expect Miller to have the answer to breaking down Sendek's zone, considering he coached under him for a few years.


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## bball2223

Washington is going to win the league if they stay healthy. Cal, and Washington State may challenge, but in the end I expect Washington to win it. Those 3 are the only 3 who deserve to go to the tournament.


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## coolpohle

TucsonClip said:


> Cal definitely has the talent to win the conference, however I think UW has just as much and more depth.
> 
> Well in that logic, how is Arizona ever going to win another game? Teams have ups and downs and right now UA is not playing well. Why or how will UA beat ASU? They will have the best player on the court and 3 out of the 5 best. ASU is definitely a better basketball team right now, no question. When it comes down to it, I expect Miller to have the answer to breaking down Sendek's zone, considering he coached under him for a few years.


I don't think Washington has as much talent - they obviously have two very good players, but Cal has three. They are not a good three point shooting team, either. 

Teams certainly have ups and downs, but where exactly have the ups been for Arizona? They are 5-5, best win streak is two games, no road wins, best win is over Louisiana Tech. I don't know, maybe I'm missing something.


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## coolpohle

bball2223 said:


> Washington is going to win the league if they stay healthy. Cal, and Washington State may challenge, but in the end I expect Washington to win it. Those 3 are the only 3 who deserve to go to the tournament.


Yeah, I think we discussed this before but Washington St. is probably only a .500 conference team. They just don't have the defense anymore without Bennett. They've only played two good teams all year - both losses and their best win is over (gulp) Idaho. The love affair with Klay Thompson is good and all, but if we put every team in the tourney that had a really good player, there would be a crapload of teams dancing in March.


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## TucsonClip

coolpohle said:


> I don't think Washington has as much talent - they obviously have two very good players, but Cal has three. They are not a good three point shooting team, either.
> 
> Teams certainly have ups and downs, but where exactly have the ups been for Arizona? They are 5-5, best win streak is two games, no road wins, best win is over Louisiana Tech. I don't know, maybe I'm missing something.


Cal definitely has the better top 3, but if you go over teh roster I will take Washington's talent off the bench over Cal's. It is hard to argue with Christopher and Randle, because they are the top duo in the conference.

Arizona was an offensive rebound away from beating UNLV and Wisconsin. Their outlook would be much better sitting at 7-3 right now than 5-5. They played very well in Maui and have hit their low 3 of the last 4 games.

Come March I definitely think UA will be able to make a run at Staples, just like a handful of Pac-10 teams.


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## TucsonClip

No way WSU has enough to even make the tournament this year. Thompson will lead the conference and be top 10 in the nation in scoring, but they have nothing after he and Casto.

I would put my money on SC or ASU finishing 3rd. SC has the conferences best wins so far (Tenn, and St. Mary's)


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## coolpohle

That was a nice win for USC yesterday...maybe they can make a run. 

Beating UNLV on a neutral court doesn't really say much.


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## TucsonClip

Arizona has the #9 SOS and the game was in Tucson.

Doesnt matter, beating UNLV would have been a good win for Arizona and the Pac-10, like it or not.


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## HB

USC with another big win over a ranked team. Basically once Alex Stephenson got back into the lineup, they've been doing good.


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## coolpohle

TucsonClip said:


> Arizona has the #9 SOS and the game was in Tucson.
> 
> Doesnt matter, beating UNLV would have been a good win for Arizona and the Pac-10, like it or not.


#9 SOS? They've played a few cupcakes, and only one ranked team in Wisconsin - a team some don't even consider to be top 25. This team is absolutely pathetic after Wise and Williams.

Like it or not? I have no bias against the Pac 10 buddy. I'm not sure why you think UNLV is so good, but they haven't beaten any tournament quality teams.


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## TucsonClip

coolpohle said:


> #9 SOS? They've played a few cupcakes, and only one ranked team in Wisconsin - a team some don't even consider to be top 25. This team is absolutely pathetic after Wise and Williams.
> 
> Like it or not? I have no bias against the Pac 10 buddy. I'm not sure why you think UNLV is so good, but they haven't beaten any tournament quality teams.


You act like im making thses numbers up...

Well they obviously dont have much talent this year, but I think Solomon Hill might be Arizona's next NBA wing.

No, I said like it or not because the UNLV win would have been a good win for ANY Pac-10 team, to think otherwise would be ignorant.


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## coolpohle

They just got beat by 30 at home tonight!


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## TucsonClip

coolpohle said:


> They just got beat by 30 at home tonight!


And that has what to do with anything I said? Thats what happens when you let a guy flirt with a triple double while scoring 49 points. UA even had it as a 9 point game after being down 20+ only to get blown out.

They arent a good team right now. I talked about peaks and valleys. This is a valley and games they should have won over Wisconsin and UNLV are the peaks. 

They have enough talent to go on a run at Staples, but they were never going to get an at-large bid.


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## coolpohle

Coulda shoulda woulda. They suck.


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## TucsonClip

coolpohle said:


> Coulda shoulda woulda. They suck.


You actually agree with someone? I believe I said they werent very good a few times on this page alone.


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## coolpohle

bball2223 said:


> Washington is going to win the league if they stay healthy. Cal, and Washington State may challenge, but in the end I expect Washington to win it. Those 3 are the only 3 who deserve to go to the tournament.


Care to take that statement back? Arizona St. is starting to look a lot better...Washington and Washington St. are looking like they might not even go .500 in conference play.


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## HKF

This league is the most mediocre of them all. We're six games in in some respects and every team has 2 wins. I swear we are so close to all of these teams finishing 9-9.


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## coolpohle

HKF said:


> This league is the most mediocre of them all. We're six games in in some respects and every team has 2 wins. I swear we are so close to all of these teams finishing 9-9.


The inconsistency is mind boggling. Cal loses at home to UCLA...Arizona St. loses their first two in conference then wins three straight, Washington loses three straight now back to 3-3. wtf?


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## TucsonClip

This conference is a joke right now. Oregon went from 1st place to last place in a week. If Arizona doesnt give up buzzer beaters on back to back Thursdays they would be in first place by a game right now, which is shocking.


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## SheriffKilla

I still think Cal is gonna win this league
Cal, Arizona State, Washington and USC make the tournament


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## HKF

USC is self-imposed banned from Postseason play. They are ineligible for the Pac-10, NCAA, NIT and those other tournaments.


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## SheriffKilla

ya, im an idiot, but they would they if not for bans? I say YES!


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## Willo

If the Pac 10 gets more than two teams in the NCAA tournament, someone got robbed.


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## coolpohle

Willo said:


> If the Pac 10 gets more than two teams in the NCAA tournament, someone got robbed.


Agreed. USC would have a decent chance if they were eligible.


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## TucsonClip

SC would be my pick to win at Staples, no doubt.


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## SheriffKilla

Cal and Washington I think will make it for sure, and Arizona State should unless there are some upsets in A10 tourney, Conference USA tourney, Horizon tourney etc...


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## Willo

Why does Washington get in. They haven't won outside of Seattle all season. They lost to Oregon at home and their best wins are over Cal and Texas A&M.


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## SheriffKilla

Well this is what Im projecting at the end of the season, Im guessing Washington will have one of the 3 best records in the Pac 10 and win at least one game in the conference tourney, so that should get them in
I think the 3 best teams in the Pac 10 get in...Cal and Washington seem likely to be the top 2 and as of now Arizona State is 3rd
Maybe a 4th gets in but im guessing thats gonna be USC and noone else with a worthy resume...


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## coolpohle

I would be absolutely stunned if the Pac 10 gets three bids. The only way I can see it happening is if someone other than Cal or Arizona St. wins the conference tournament.

Washington did very little out of conference and have shown time and again that they're just an average team.


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## TucsonClip

I wouldnt be be shocked to see 2 bids, one being Cal and the other being whoever wins at Staples. Washington is falling apart and I dont buy ASU at all.


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## coolpohle

TucsonClip said:


> I wouldnt be be shocked to see 2 bids, one being Cal and the other being whoever wins at Staples.


I'd be surprised if that wasn't the scenario.


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## JuniorNoboa

Juan Bid is more likely then three bids IMO. Two is the likely scenario.

But if USC or Cal win the Pac-10 tournament, one bid becomes a decent possibility.


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## coolpohle

I don't think USC can even play in the Pac 10 tourney.


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## JuniorNoboa

coolpohle said:


> I don't think USC can even play in the Pac 10 tourney.


Good point.


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## TucsonClip

If Cal doesnt win the conference I cant see the team who does being left out (unless its SC of course). That is just my opinon, but ill pose the scenario to you guys as well.

Team X wins the Pac-10 over Cal
Cal wins the Pac-10 tournament (grabbing the automatic bid and would have been an at-large anyway)

Can you justify keeping the Pac-10 champ, regardless of who it is, out of the tournament?


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## coolpohle

Well, in that scenario it will still only be a two bid league.


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## zagsfan20

I'm generally a big Pac-10 fan, but the league isn't even watchable this year.


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## Willo

(obviously) didn't realize that USC took themselves out of the Pac 10 tournament. Let's say Cal and USC are the top two teams in the Pac 10, and Cal wins the conference tournament. Do they get a second team? I was stretching to put Arizona State in.


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## coolpohle

They will get two bids.


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## Willo

coolpohle said:


> They will get two bids.


I dunno how far history gets them, however. I mean, it's one thing if two or three teams distance themselves, but do you really want to reward a 10 win Arizona or Arizona State team in the Pac 10 this year with an NCAA tournament birth?


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## coolpohle

Most likely it won't matter because someone other than Cal will win the tournament. If Cal does happen to win the tourney, Arizona St. will get the other bid because they'll go 12-6.


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## TucsonClip

coolpohle said:


> Well, in that scenario it will still only be a two bid league.


I think it will be in that scenario, but you could very well make the case that the Pac-10 only deserves 1 bid (Cal)


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## TucsonClip

coolpohle said:


> Most likely it won't matter because someone other than Cal will win the tournament. If Cal does happen to win the tourney, Arizona St. will get the other bid because they'll go 12-6.


I'll guarantee ASU doesnt go 8-3 to close the season.


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## coolpohle

We'll see. They've been up and down. It's amazing how a team can beat Washington St. by 25 and then lose at home by 19 to Arizona.


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## coolpohle

Props to Sean Miller by the way. They are only playing with two upperclassmen and while they haven't been great, they have pulled off some respectable wins with not much after Wise and Williams.


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## Willo

Cal now has a three game lead in the conference and no team other than Cal has above a .500 record.


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## TucsonClip

Arizona is playing Cal for a share of first place tomorrow... Not sure where you got the 3 game lead.

Also UA, ASU, and UCLA are all .500 or better in conference.


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## SheriffKilla

Arizona has played the toughest schedule in the country according to Kenpom, their youngsters are catching on
Another NCAA tournament isnt out of the question


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## Willo

My browser is going crazy. Of course Cal only has a one game lead. But the fact that two of the four teams now over .500 in the Pac ten include Arizona and UCLA, two teams that are, combined, one game over .500 overall, speaks volumes for the Pac 10 this year.

Only way Arizona is getting into the dance is if they win the Pac 10.


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## Willo

And, in my defense, ASU and UCLA were at .500 when I posted it. Don't know how I missed Zona, though. I blame my cache.


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## coolpohle

Willo said:


> Only way Arizona is getting into the dance is if they win the Pac 10.


Yeah, you don't lose to BYU by 30 on your home court and get an at-large.


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## TucsonClip

Arizona knocks off Cal and has a share of first place in February...

Sean Miller is doing an amazing job and all the young guys are really making an impact.


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## TucsonClip

coolpohle said:


> Yeah, you don't lose to BYU by 30 on your home court and get an at-large.


This goes back to the question I asked earlier in the week. If Arizona wins the Pac-10 (not the conference tournament) do they get an at large?

BTW another rant, I hate when the conference champion is determined by the conference tournament. Why the ACC and other conferences do this I have no idea.


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## Willo

I know why they do it.

TV $, and the chance to sneak in an extra bid.


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## coolpohle

TucsonClip said:


> This goes back to the question I asked earlier in the week. If Arizona wins the Pac-10 (not the conference tournament) do they get an at large?
> 
> BTW another rant, I hate when the conference champion is determined by the conference tournament. Why the ACC and other conferences do this I have no idea.


For Arizona to get an at-large, they would need to have Cal win the conference tournament, go at least 12-6 in conference, and need Washington and Arizona St. to struggle the rest of the way.


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## TucsonClip

Just a note, Lunardi has Cal in as a #10.

All the parity in the Pac-10 isnt helping the conference earn another bid.


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## coolpohle

I have them as a #7 seed, but as of today I'd have them probably as a 9. I still think the chances of this being a one bid league are small. Washington is starting to position themselves nicely for an at-large with four straight wins and have victories over Texas A&M and Cal on their resume.


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## JuniorNoboa

TucsonClip said:


> Just a note, Lunardi has Cal in as a #10.
> 
> All the parity in the Pac-10 isnt helping the conference earn another bid.


Having all its member teams play like **** in November and December hurt a hell of alot more.


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## zagsfan20

coolpohle said:


> I have them as a #7 seed, but as of today I'd have them probably as a 9. I still think the chances of this being a one bid league are small. Washington is starting to position themselves nicely for an at-large with four straight wins and have victories over Texas A&M and Cal on their resume.


Its February and the Huskies still haven't won a game outside of Seattle.


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## JuniorNoboa

Its very rare that a top 10 conference does not have its regular season winner not get invited to the tourney. I think I might do some research on that tomorrow. Furthermore, they are oftena seed or two better then expected.

I have a feeling that the CUSA regular season champ will earn a bid no matter what... and perhaps the CAA champ as well.


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## coolpohle

zagsfan20 said:


> Its February and the Huskies still haven't won a game outside of Seattle.


They've had an unbalanced conference schedule with three more conference home games than road games. They'll pick up some road wins the rest of the way.


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## JuniorNoboa

kansasalumn said:


> whatever one week or two weeks it is still early in basketball season,


See this is where you need to know your role and .............

On November 22, it was pretty clear that the Pac-10 was going to have major issues, and your still early claims were totally invalid.


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## TucsonClip

zagsfan20 said:


> Its February and the Huskies still haven't won a game outside of Seattle.


UW sure has been getting a lot of home cooking by the refs as well. Still, UW not being able to win on the road is going to cripple them unless they stay hot.


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## TM

*DraftExpress: The Demise of the Pac-10*


> The Pac-10 had become notorious at this point for churning out early entrance players, and completely dominated the other BCS conferences in terms of the number of former players it sent to this year’s NBA Rookie-Sophomore game.
> 
> But part of that lack of talent must be attributed to recruiting woes committed by nearly every team in the conference


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## SheriffKilla

JuniorNoboa said:


> See this is where you need to know your role and .............
> 
> On November 22, it was pretty clear that the Pac-10 was going to have major issues, and your still early claims were totally invalid.


To me it was clear the Pac 10 was gonna struggle on June 22nd


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## TucsonClip

TM said:


> *DraftExpress: The Demise of the Pac-10*


Just read that and I can definitely shine much more light onto that situation if anyone has any questions.

The problems with the Pac-10 go like this:

1. Early entrants

The Pac-10 has lost a record number of lottery and first round picks in the last 4 years. Not only that, but a majority of them left after their freshman or sophomore seasons. That is very difficult to overcome, especially when those prospects essentially came from the same handful of schools.

2. Recruiting gaffs

Ben Howland has made a lot of bad recruiting mistakes for being such a good coach. He had countless pros on his Final Four teams, but really swung and missed on the recruiting trail in order to capitalize on those runs. Poor evaluating, waiting till the last second to get in on recruits, and playing a style not many players want to play definitely didnt help UCLA. Lump that in with UA;s poor recruiting during Lute's last days and essentially losing 2 entire recruiting classes in 3 years doomed UA. 

3. Coaching turnover and lack there of

UA has been decimiated by this (4 coaches in 4 years), SC has gone through it, WSU lost the best thing to ever happen to them, Stanford hasnt been the same since Monty left, then there is Ernie Kent and Oregon. Oregon could be a national power if they hired the right coach. With Phil Knight's money, an amazing new arena being built, and a strong recruiting base in Oregon, all make UO an attractive place for coaches and recruits. Oregon and Washington's downfall killed the Pac-10.


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## TucsonClip

The Pac-10 is going to have all 10 teams with double digit losses this season unless Cal/ASU/UW win the Pac-10 tournament and national title.


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## rebelsun

The conference has seen a remarkable decline, but I'm not sure how much worse they're gonna get. Miller is a winner at AU; he just needs time. One of the biggest reasons for optimism is Montgomery at Cal - he ran a fantastic program at Stanford and should resume that level at Berkeley. Like Clip described, Oregon has huge potential with all the Nike love. While Robinson hasn't set the world on fire, he has at least pumped some life into a program that had been comatose for quite sometime. Washington State might be in the most trouble; there are some feisty programs in the northwest that provide solid competition for 2nd and 3rd-tier recruits in the area. USC desperately needs some stability, and while KO is competent, who knows how long both he and the school will be interested in each other. This season should be a wake-up call for Howland, in terms of risk management. 

The emergence of the MWC doesn't help them, but they still easily sit on the best recruiting markets east of Texas. Adding Colorado and Utah would be interesting for them in terms of additional markets as well as expanding their influence and attention geographically. I don't know how other member schools would feel about the additions, and consequent deduction in shared revenue, but it would very likely enhance the prestige of the conference as a whole.


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## coolpohle

I would agree that Washington St. is in the most trouble. Bennett did a great job rebuilding quickly and now that he's gone they're back to the bottom.


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## TucsonClip

Bone is a decent coach, but once Thompson and Casto leave Pullman, Wazzu is heading back to being a doormat.

Keep an eye on Scott Drew going to Oregon. If I were Belotti he would be on my short list for a few reasons. While he hasnt proven he is an very good coach, he is a better coach than Kent ever was or will be and can recruit at an extremely high level. Look at the players he pulled in Waco. Imagine what he could do with Oregon's facilities and Nike money.

Also, look for Kenny Payne to stay on the staff as he has major connections to World Wide Wes.


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## rebelsun

TucsonClip said:


> Keep an eye on Scott Drew going to Oregon. If I were Belotti he would be on my short list for a few reasons. While he hasnt proven he is an very good coach, he is a better coach than Kent ever was or will be and can recruit at an extremely high level. Look at the players he pulled in Waco. Imagine what he could do with Oregon's facilities and Nike money.


Fantastic idea of Drew to the Ducks. He gets talent and athleticism at every position; that pace and style is what the Pac-10 thrived on.


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## TucsonClip

RebelSun said:


> Fantastic idea of Drew to the Ducks. He gets talent and athleticism at every position; that pace and style is what the Pac-10 thrived on.


Agreed, if he was more proven as a head coach he would have landed the UA job after Cal escaped their grip to UK, Pitino said no, and if Cal didnt call Miller to sell him on the UA job.

He would be a good hire and would add even more fuel to the recruiting battles over the Oregon/Washington kids.


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## TucsonClip

Arizona's streak is over.

25 straight years in the tournament is now history. 2nd longest streak all-time, but it looks like Kansas will definitely be pressuring that streak.

Miller is a good coach, but the last few years of turmoil doomed this streak.

To put this in perspective, Arizona has been in the tournament every single year of my life, except this one. Definitely a gut wrenching day for UA fans, especially me.


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## HKF

Here's the thing with Drew. He's very Christian and there's a reason why he's at Baylor (which is the biggest Christian university in America). Hard to see him leaving Baylor for Oregon, because there's more than just W-L's involved when it comes to this dude.


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