# Rose as a top 5 PG?



## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

let's throw the raps bias out the window and look at things realistically....

if Rose can happen to average 15 ppg (at least), 8 rbs, 8 asts, which don't seem to far off IMO, he could be a top 5 PG in the L.

discuss.

edit: due to unreal expectations, 15/6/6 would be much more realistic.


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

Just my opinion, but if he can give you 5 RPG and 5 APG, you should be quite happy. I really don't think 8/8 is realistic at all. However, if he somehow can put up 15+/8/8, then obviously he's a top five level PG.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

yeah he can be a top 5 point guard on O. but his d is gonna hold him back


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> yeah he can be a top 5 point guard on O. but his d is gonna hold him back


that's one thing i'm worried bout.

being the bigger PG at 6'8, he'll have to work on his lateral D to help gaurd ag ainst quicker guards. Daniels and Ridnour got too many drives past him during the SEA game.

i think that during these times, him and AW will switch defensive assignmetns, landing Rose the other team's SG to defend against.

btw MJG, let's say 8 asts and 8 rbs are too much, how bout 15/6/7? too much to ask for?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Wait. If Rose gets 15/8/8 then he's a top 5 point guard to you? What's that make Lebron who is already doing 17/7/7? Top 7?

Oh wait. You care about winning.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> that's one thing i'm worried bout.
> ...



but as long as we have alvin guarding the point guards he can switch and guard the shooting guard which isn't so bad.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Wait. If Rose gets 15/8/8 then he's a top 5 point guard to you? What's that make Lebron who is already doing 17/7/7? Top 7?
> 
> Oh wait. You care about winning.


Jalen = difference maker
Lebron = stats padder


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## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> Jalen = difference maker
> Lebron = stats padder


I think you have their roles reversed.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

Jalen is doing his post-trade ritual.. Playing inspired basketball.. His shooting % still sucks and the assists will be traded in for shot attempts in a month or 2..


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> Jalen = difference maker
> Lebron = stats padder


yup


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Chops</b>!
> Jalen is doing his post-trade ritual.. Playing inspired basketball.. His shooting % still sucks and the assists will be traded in for shot attempts in a month or 2..


aww man don't be mad your bulls will be good in 10 years.


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## Numbed One (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MagicStick</b>!
> 
> 
> I think you have their roles reversed.


Doesn't look that way so far.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MagicStick</b>!
> 
> 
> I think you have their roles reversed.


haven't seen a Magic fan around for a while now :laugh:


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

shooters are shooter jalen is a scorer.. he got 18 and 10.. that's good enough.. and he's not going to change his game our coaching staff is too good to let it happen. ko isn't bill cartwright


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> 
> 
> aww man don't be mad your bulls will be good in 10 years.


I'm far from mad.. Maybe in that same time the Raptors can win 6 championships so that your franchise can enjoy what I enjoyed as a kid.. Maybe even 1, eh?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Chops</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm far from mad.. Maybe in that same time the Raptors can win 6 championships so that your franchise can enjoy what I enjoyed as a kid.. Maybe even 1, eh?


was this even needed? comparing franchises?


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> was this even needed? comparing franchises?


He brought up the Bulls.. I didn't..


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Chops</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm far from mad.. Maybe in that same time the Raptors can win 6 championships so that your franchise can enjoy what I enjoyed as a kid.. Maybe even 1, eh?



uhh our franchise is 9 years old.. and it'll be A LONG time before you guys win another championship stop living in the past it's 2004


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> uhh our franchise is 9 years old.. and it'll be A LONG time before you guys win another championship stop living in the past it's 2004


No, according to my calender it is still 2003.. Living in the past? If I'm living in the past, then you're living in the future..


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Chops</b>!
> 
> 
> No, according to my calender it is still 2003.. Living in the past? If I'm living in the past, then you're living in the future..


ya lol that's true hey it's almost 2004


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

back on topic, can Rose be a top 5 PG in the L?


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

No..


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## JL2002 (Nov 30, 2003)

can bulls get any better with AD?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> back on topic, can Rose be a top 5 PG in the L?


Yes. But it would involve several deaths and/or retirments.


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> back on topic, can Rose be a top 5 PG in the L?


yes. but will he be? i doubt it. kidd, b-diddy, marbury are top 3 for sure. payton, nash, franchise, and probably someone else that im forgetting willl fight for the four and five spots. rose hasn't played well at the 1 for long enough yet...

guys dont have to be so hard on chops...


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

no way. You don't call someone the top 5 pg when he's not even a true pg. plus everyone knows the top 5 in the league are. 
J.kidd
marbury
Payton
Baron Davis
Francis

the list goes on....Nash, Bibby, Billups, Arenas, Sam Cassell, and so on. remember we give up the "very talented" AD and JYD for this guy?


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>seifer0406</b>!
> no way. You don't call someone the top 5 pg when he's not even a true pg. plus everyone knows the top 5 in the league are.
> J.kidd
> marbury
> ...


he plays the position better then marbury(who plays like a sg) and francis(same as starbury) the guy passes the ball and makes plays.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

i realize that the elite are:
kidd
baron
marbury
nash
nash

but the question borderlines around the assumption that Rose could be in their league?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> 
> 
> he plays the position better then marbury(who plays like a sg) and francis(same as starbury) the guy passes the ball and makes plays.


don't even get me started on francis. they should either trade francis or mobley for a real pg and place either player as an SG.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I wouldn't call Rose a top "blank" player in any position. He's sort of like Penny when he was a bit healthier. Can handle the ball extremely well, has great court vision. Doesn't possess the speed and explosiveness at his current age but still has enough to create his own shot and can post up on smaller guards. He is a lot like Penny in that sense.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>FanOfAll8472</b>!
> 
> 
> guys dont have to be so hard on chops...


he can't except the fact that jalen rose is playing well. if ad was playing good i'd tell ya about it.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>seifer0406</b>!
> I wouldn't call Rose a top "blank" player in any position. He's sort of like Penny when he was a bit healthier. Can handle the ball extremely well, has great court vision. Doesn't possess the speed and explosiveness at his current age but still has enough to create his own shot and can post up on smaller guards. He is a lot like Penny in that sense.


really smart  man when are these bulls fans going to face the facts.. 

don't even try to compare penny to rose.. it's just stupid.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> 
> 
> really smart  man when are these bulls fans going to face the facts..
> ...


it's a pretty fair assessment


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> 
> 
> he plays the position better then marbury(who plays like a sg) and francis(same as starbury) the guy passes the ball and makes plays.


first of all he does not play the position better than Marbury. And there is no way you can say that he is a better pg than Francis after 4 games at point guard. btw, i forgot to mention Andre miller last time.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>seifer0406</b>!
> 
> 
> first of all he does not play the position better than Marbury. And there is no way you can say that he is a better pg than Francis after 4 games at point guard. btw, i forgot to mention Andre miller last time.



those guys are better PLAYERS then rose.. but they are not better POINT GUARDS then rose.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> 
> 
> really smart  man when are these bulls fans going to face the facts..
> ...


here's my question, did you even watch Penny play when he was with Orlando like 5 knee surgeries before? Even right now they play very similar. Rose uses his smarts to get past people since he's not that fast anymore.


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## macro6 (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> 
> 
> really smart  man when are these bulls fans going to face the facts..
> ...



huh? why is comparing penny (old one) to rose stupid.


and rose is a better PG than MARBURY and FRANCIS?

..........


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

i never said they were better players, which they obviously are. i said point guards, learn to read more carefully please.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>seifer0406</b>!
> i never said they were better players, which they obviously are. i said point guards, learn to read more carefully please.



well in the 4 games jalen has played pg he has averaged 8+ assists. francis and marbury could never get that number because they would rather look for their shot.

francis mostly.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



in the sense of running a offense yup


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## Dj_Danny_Dee (Aug 8, 2003)

One of the best thing about rose being a pg is that he creates so many mismatches because of his size. Plus having alvin at the same time with rose doens't expose rose's defense on pg. Alvin would be able to guard them whilte rose guards the sg or sf.
I think tis' too early to say rose is one of the top 5 pgs... let's decide at season's end


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dj_Danny_Dee</b>!
> One of the best thing about rose being a pg is that he creates so many mismatches because of his size. Plus having alvin at the same time with rose doens't expose rose's defense on pg. Alvin would be able to guard them whilte rose guards the sg or sf.
> I think tis' too early to say rose is one of the top 5 pgs... let's decide at season's end


*could* he be?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> well in the 4 games jalen has played pg he has averaged 8+ assists. francis and marbury could never get that number because they would rather look for their shot.


are you trying to tell me that Jalen will average 8 assists for the reminder of the year? don't be ridiculous, he's not even going to average 6 come April. He has a career 4.1 APG and his previous high was like 6.2 when he played PG in denver.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>seifer0406</b>!
> 
> 
> are you trying to tell me that Jalen will average 8 assists for the reminder of the year? don't be ridiculous, he's not even going to average 6 come April. He has a career 4.1 APG and his previous high was like 6.2 when he played PG in denver.



with vince carter im sure he'll get his fair share of ASSISTS.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>seifer0406</b>!
> 
> 
> are you trying to tell me that Jalen will average 8 assists for the reminder of the year? don't be ridiculous, he's not even going to average 6 come April. He has a career 4.1 APG and his previous high was like 6.2 when he played PG in denver.


i'm willing to bet he can average better than 4.1 this year


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> i'm willing to bet he can average better than 4.1 this year


he averaged 4.3 with the bulls last season. I'm not saying he's not a good passer but calling him top 5 and saying he's going to average 8+ assists is unrealistic.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>seifer0406</b>!
> 
> 
> he averaged 4.3 with the bulls last season. I'm not saying he's not a good passer but calling him top 5 and saying he's going to average 8+ assists is unrealistic.


1. note the edit, i went from 15/88 to 15/6/6
2. who on the Bulls squad can have much of an effect as Carter?
3. he's got Bosh as well


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

i was talking to dathomie. for rose to average around 6 is about right.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Wait. I'm sorry. Did someone just say that Jalen Rose is a better PG than Stephon Marbury because Marbury looks to shoot all the time?

And Jalen _doesn't_ look to shoot first...? :krazy:


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> And Jalen _doesn't_ look to shoot first...? :krazy:


yes that was me.

so far, he looks to create first


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> Wait. I'm sorry. Did someone just say that Jalen Rose is a better PG than Stephon Marbury because Marbury looks to shoot all the time?
> 
> And Jalen _doesn't_ look to shoot first...? :krazy:


i said francis mostly.. . im sure you've watched the 4 raptors games? rose is playing pass first for the most part.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> 
> 
> i said francis mostly.. . im sure you've watched the 4 raptors games? rose is playing pass first for the most part.


lol, i'm sure he didn't watch the last 4 raptors games but he watched like 30+ games that had Rose in it. but wait, you don't know nothing about a player until you watch him in a raptor's uniform.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>seifer0406</b>!
> 
> 
> lol, i'm sure he didn't watch the last 4 raptors games but he watched like 30+ games that had Rose in it. but wait, you don't know nothing about a player until you watch him in a raptor's uniform.


ack, once again, it all depends on the enviroment.

at CHI, Rose was called upon to be the primary option, leaving him the player to make the most shots.

at TOR, he's got VC to feed off of, as well as alot more options to use his skill of passing with.

totally different scenarios.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> ack, once again, it all depends on the enviroment.
> ...


yup


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

when Rose was in Chicago (not just this season but last season), eventhough he might not have someone like VC as an option on offense. He did have 2 decent inside players in Eddy Curry and Tyson Chandler at times. Jamal Crawford can score his share of points as well. Plus Marshall was there also. It wasn't like he was their only option last year that's why he averaged so low on assists.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>seifer0406</b>!
> when Rose was in Chicago (not just this season but last season), eventhough he might not have someone like VC as an option on offense. He did have 2 decent inside players in Eddy Curry and Tyson Chandler at times. Jamal Crawford can score his share of points as well. Plus Marshall was there also. It wasn't like he was their only option last year that's why he averaged so low on assists.


and which one of those players can have the effect that VC gives off to the opponents?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Toronto was in no way an offensive powerhouse before Rose came (chuckles), and they are no Dallas Mavericks after they got Rose.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>seifer0406</b>!
> Toronto was in no way an offensive powerhouse before Rose came (chuckles), and they are no Dallas Mavericks after they got Rose.


let's see:
VC, AW, Bosh, Mo Pete for TOR

Crawford, Curry, Chandler (if he could just stay healthy) for CHI

and now add in Rose and Marshall for TOR............


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> and which one of those players can have the effect that VC gives off to the opponents?


again, i don't see how just having Vince will give someone a dramatic increase in assist average. Having a team full of capable scorers (which toronto has, not only because of Rose but because of Marshall and with Bosh starting) will give you that. Bulls had scorers on their team last year just like the Raptors right now. So, back to Rose averaging a career high in assists (+4 to his career avg according to our good friend dathomie), it's highly unlikely. even with someone like vince in the lineup.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> let's see:
> ...



i don't even have to type anymore... trick is just stealing the words.. tell me why the bulls are having trouble scoring now? i'm sure eddy curry will put up a ton a points (chuckles)


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> let's see:
> ...


marshall was in chicago


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>seifer0406</b>!
> 
> 
> marshall was in chicago


that's why he said and now you add...


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>seifer0406</b>!
> 
> 
> again, i don't see how just having Vince will give someone a dramatic increase in assist average. Having a team full of capable scorers (which toronto has, not only because of Rose but because of Marshall and with Bosh starting) will give you that. Bulls had scorers on their team last year just like the Raptors right now.


VC will often demand double/triple teams, leaving one or two men open for Rose to pass on. 

plus, Rose is also respectable enough to demand a double team as well, so when he's down low on the blocks, he could pass on a player like VC/Marshall/AW/Mo Pete who can hit that open shot nowadays (thank god), giving Rose a +1 on the asts column.

aaah, the beauty of haivng good 3 scoring options.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

i know Rose averaging 8 apg is unrealistic, but expecting Rose to average 4 apg is undervaluing his skills as a playmaker, as well as the skills of TOR


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

No way Rose is a top 5 PG, even if he does get 15/8/8.

Kidd, Payton, Francis, Davis, Marbury, Nash and you could even argue LeBron are all better than him.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

i never said he's going to average 4 assist. i just said for him to avg 8+ is ridiculous when his career avg is 4.1. And no, just by having VC will not give someone a dramatic boost in assists. anyway, it's pointless for me to keep trying to convince something so obvious to you guys. just keep this topic in mind and we'll revisit it come april when it's all said and done. I'll remember that one of you believes Rose is a better point guard than Francis and Marbury and the other one thinks Rose is top 5, uh wait, top 8 is funny enough, pg in the NBA.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>seifer0406</b>!
> I'll remember that one of you believes Rose is a better point guard than Francis and Marbury and the other one thinks Rose is top 5, uh wait, top 8 is funny enough, pg in the NBA.


*could* he be, and yes having a palyer like VC will open up the floor greatly


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> No way Rose is a top 5 PG, even if he does get 15/8/8.
> 
> Kidd, Payton, Francis, Davis, Marbury, Nash and you could even argue LeBron are all better than him.


can't a guy who can average 15/6/6 be in that league?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

actually make that top 10, if i'm a team GM and my team is missing a point guard, (point guard, as in someone who leads the offense for 4 quarters and carry the ball up the court most of the time) i'll take Tony Parker or maybe even as far as Eric Snow over Jalen Rose. At point guard only, not sg slash pg or sf slash sg slash pg.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>seifer0406</b>!
> actually make that top 10, if i'm a team GM and my team is missing a point guard, (point guard, as in someone who leads the offense for 4 quarters and carry the ball up the court most of the time) i'll take Tony Parker or maybe even as far as Eric Snow over Jalen Rose. At point guard only, not sg slash pg or sf slash sg slash pg.


whatever man.. we could argue all night.. i'll let the raptors wins and jalens assists do the talking.


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## Goku (Aug 28, 2003)

after watching Rose the last few games I am convinced he is a top 5 passer. I've been shocked at how well he reads defences. (I've never seen much of him before he came here)

but theres easily 10 guys who play point that teams would value more overall

also, this is apparently the first time in his career he has been asked to be the primary creater. His career of 4.1 doesn't mean much

another also....8 assists per is hardly insane. Also...having a scorer like Vince on his team obviously helps with assist totals.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

i aint even saying he's top five.. but he's a damn good point guard at this point.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

well goku, currently 3 players in NBA averages 8+ assists. I would call Rose a top 5 playmaker before I say he can average 8+. 

and dathomie.....try to think of something intelligent to say next time. I never said the Raps are going to lose, (actually i think they will win many games this year because of that trade and go far into the playoffs). And please, if you want to let Rose's assists do the talking come talk to me in April when the season is over, not after only 4 games and with the Raps winning all 4 of them.


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## Goku (Aug 28, 2003)

Isn't scoring always down over the first couple months?

anways, to my recollection, lots of guys have done it. I don't know if he will, its a big number especially the last few years, but it isn't 'insane'. 

also, I'm sure I overvalue his passing at least a little with him being new, and the best passer we have ever had

BTW why don't you think Vince will add a little to a players assist totals? I don't get that part


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

"Dramatic increase" as in +4 to someone's career average. btw Rose's career average is 4.1, 8+ assists means double his career average Of course with Vince in the lineup it does make the playmaker's job a lot easier.


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## Goku (Aug 28, 2003)

nevermind, I reread your post and you said "dramatic boost" so I could agree with that.

I predict 7 seeing how every trip down the court he is involved in the play

where is all the selfishness Bulls fans warned us about?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Goku</b>!
> where is all the selfishness Bulls fans warned us about?


i was wondering that too. 
everyone seems fixated that Rose will never defer to VC and he'll try to force himself to take over a game.


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## darkballa (Sep 19, 2003)

raptors are lookin good btw coming from a 24 win season. once Lammond Murray gets his groove back expect him to be more of an impact. Rose is averagin 7 asists, not bad for a F-G. I cant believe the trade though even though if its helping the raptors. i have grown to be a raptor fan because of the trade and well what do you have when almost all of your 5 starters are scoring double figures? playoff time baby and rose can make an impact so can marshall if he can grab more boards but i dont think we can go the distance with bosh in the middle, well at least unless he gains 10 or 20 pounds more hes doing a good job


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


--- --- --------? Marbury averages more than 8+ apg for his entire career.


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## MadFishX (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Wait. If Rose gets 15/8/8 then he's a top 5 point guard to you? What's that make Lebron who is already doing 17/7/7? Top 7?
> 
> Oh wait. You care about winning.


a good pg makes his team better,( jason kidd) iz not always about stats (marbury, lebron)


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Jalen Rose, as good as he's been to the Raptors lately, is not a top 5 point guard in the nba. We all know 15/8/8 is very unrealistic for Rose, though I do expect him to improve a lot as he gets more comfortable with this team. More realistic expectations for him would be 16pts, 6asts, 5rbs.

Many people do see Rose as a shoot first point guard, but with his few games as a raptor, he hasn't really looked to shot as much as I expected. When you have point guards like Kidd, Francis, Marbury, Payton, Nash ect. even though many of them are shoot first point guards, you can't realistically tell me that Rose are better than those players.

One thing that does give Rose the advantage over most of the point guards in the league is his height. He can see over his defender, has great court vision, and uses that to his advantage. Rose does take smart shots, like posting up on the smaller defender and using his strength, or slashing inside.

As great as Rose is, you can't set the bar that high for this guy.


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## MightyReds2020 (Jul 19, 2002)

Rose is one of the better PG in the league but I'm not ready to even consider putting him into consideration of the top 5. First and foremost, he has to play more and be consistent. Rose's past problem lies in his ego. He has a franchise player-type-of-game without the franchise player-type-of-talents, kind of like Jerry Stackhouse. He needs the ball on his hand to be effective. His true color will show when the team is struggling, and that was when people saw him as no franchise player. Until proven otherwise, he's no top 5, not even worth consideration.


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## macro6 (Jul 23, 2002)

rose is NOT a top 5 PG. 


my top 5

1. Jason Kidd
2. Baron Davis
3. Stephon Marbury
4. Gary Payton
5. Steve Nash

Just because a point guard is capable of scoring, doesnt mean theyre not a PG. If anyone says Rose is any better than these top 5 is crazy. Rose only played 4 games so far, and sum of u guys are already saying Rose is better than Marbury and Kidd.  

but i do think Rose may be a top 10 PG.


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> 
> 
> he can't except the fact that jalen rose is playing well. if ad was playing good i'd tell ya about it.


have you followed the career of rose? when he was first traded to chi-town, he played like a madman...then he cooled off. not saying he will here or not, but it's true that he's playing motivated right now. most nba players play motivated after they're traded.



> rose is NOT a top 5 PG.
> 
> 
> my top 5
> ...


:yes:


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>FanOfAll8472</b>!
> 
> 
> have you followed the career of rose? when he was first traded to chi-town, he played like a madman...


lol it don't matter to dathomie. according to him Rose has already earned his respect as a superior point guard than Steve Franchise and Starbury. I wouldn't be surprised if he calls Donyell Marshall the next Shareef Abdul-Rahim with Peja's 3 point touch.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>seifer0406</b>!
> 
> 
> lol it don't matter to dathomie. according to him Rose has already earned his respect as a superior point guard than Steve Franchise and Starbury. I wouldn't be surprised if he calls Donyell Marshall the next Shareef Abdul-Rahim with Peja's 3 point touch.


Donny's 3PP this season: .431
Peja's 3PP this season: .429
Donny's PPG since trade: 19.5
Donny's RPG since trade: 8.0
Reef's PPG this season: 20.7
Reef's RPG this season: 9.8

:sour: Pretty Close!

Seriously though, Rose might not be one of the best pointmen in the league, but he has been great for us, exactly what we needed. He doesn't have to be top-5 anything to get the job done, considering how little we produced with Alvin/Milt running the O.


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

1. Baron Davis
2. Jason Kidd
3. Gary Payton
4. Stephon Marbury
5. Steve Nash

'Nuff Said.


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## Dj_Danny_Dee (Aug 8, 2003)

I think Nash is better than Marbury. 
Even though his stats aren't that high... it's because he has such good teammates he doens't have to be stacking up his stats. I mean, without nash, mavs had trouble against the davis, jyd raps.


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## Dj_Danny_Dee (Aug 8, 2003)

although u could say the same about marbury, if he wasn't there, the suns would struggle too
but i don't think as much! They got penny who can play starter pg mins


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## Raptors15 (May 23, 2003)

first of all, i want to let everyone know that im not choosing sides in this debate. however when a person is going on past stats such as career averages, saying a player cannot produce significantly more than their career averages is not a fair assumption. If a person goes on career averages, than i guess players such as kobe bryant, kevin garnett, and tracy mcgrady, shouldnt have produced the way they have. 

these players career averages before they became stars were all in single figures, but its funny how they increased so dramatically over one year, staying consistent from then on. 

Jalen Rose may not average 15/8/8 or 15/6/6 or whatever fans are assuming, but by basing your facts on past statistics is just unfair. Jalen Rose is clearly not a top 5 point guard, however he is averaging 8 assissts. Before everyone jumps on me saying its only been 4 games, u need to play 4 games before u play 82.

--- ---- who is saying Jalen does not have the ability to produce 7-8 assists does not know anything, because if he didnt have the ability to produce 8 assists, he wouldnt have produced an avg. of 8 assists in his first four games with the raps.

well, thats all i have to say, but i just want to remind u, im not saying he will average what he is, but i am saying its unfair to say he cannot achieve sumthing because he has never done it before. Tmac averaged 30+ last year, who expected that? not many people, thats a significant jump, from his career average before that season. Just about every NBA player has gone through low career averages, but flourishing later in their careers.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>seifer0406</b>!
> 
> 
> lol it don't matter to dathomie. according to him Rose has already earned his respect as a superior point guard than Steve Franchise and Starbury. I wouldn't be surprised if he calls Donyell Marshall the next Shareef Abdul-Rahim with Peja's 3 point touch.



ya that's it. stay on the bulls board

and for the people who say rose plays his butt off when he's traded is false.. all he's doing better in is the assists which are at 8 a game. everything else is worse.. so that notion is retarded.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Raptors15</b>!
> first of all, i want to let everyone know that im not choosing sides in this debate. however when a person is going on past stats such as career averages, saying a player cannot produce significantly more than their career averages is not a fair assumption. If a person goes on career averages, than i guess players such as kobe bryant, kevin garnett, and tracy mcgrady, shouldnt have produced the way they have.
> 
> these players career averages before they became stars were all in single figures, but its funny how they increased so dramatically over one year, staying consistent from then on.
> ...


Let me start off by saying, just for using a homosexual reference in your post, it already has made whatever else you have to say irrelevent. Rose is a 12 year veteran, not some kid who came out of highschool and just reached legal drinking age. Someone who is 31 (Rose turns 31 in about a month), is at the peak of their potential if anything they would be at the beginning of a decline. For you to compare someone who is 31 years old to someone who's 21 (Tmac was 21 when he got to Orlando) does not make any sense at all. It's even more humorous when you mentioned Kobe and KG. Everybody knows that for those 2 players their career stats increased steadily after their rookie season rather than a huge incrase like Tmac. 

Anyways, i don't know what sport you have been following, but this certainly isn't baseball. There aren't any Jamie Moyer's in the NBA, who reached his potential as a pitcher after he's 35 years old.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


dathomie, maybe it's time for your medication, let's try to stay focused here. Because i told you a few days ago, "Don't be troll, don't troll the bulls board" doesn't make me a Bulls fan. Go watch some more games and get to know some of the players before you give comments. Or else you're just going to make a fool of yourself saying stuff like what you said about franchise and starbury.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

What's really important here is that Rose can play LIKE a top 5 point guard. He can conrol the tempo, push the ball up the court, make great decisions and great passes, score, and most importantly, lead his team to victories. So far he's definitely looking like a good point guard, perhaps the best this franchise has seen. We will just have to wait and see how he continues to play with our team. If the fit is right, don't be suprised to see his game continue blossom with our team.


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## Ben1 (May 20, 2003)

First thing first, I'ven't watch a single Raptors' game with Rose playing in it. So, Raptors have been winning games and Rose have been averaging 8+ assists? That's awesome, good stuff. If Rose can continue to play like that for the rest of the season, then we can make an agruement to have him as one of the top 5 PGs of the L (which isn't really something that significant anyway IMO). 


As of right now, my top 5 PGs will be...

1) Jason Kidd
2) Baron Davis
3) Stephon Marbury
4) Gary Payton
5) Jason Williams

(with Steve Nash at 6th)


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> What's really important here is that Rose can play LIKE a top 5 point guard. He can conrol the tempo, push the ball up the court, make great decisions and great passes, score, and most importantly, lead his team to victories. So far he's definitely looking like a good point guard, perhaps the best this franchise has seen. We will just have to wait and see how he continues to play with our team. If the fit is right, don't be suprised to see his game continue blossom with our team.


that's the point i was getting at. it's not whether Rose s a top 5 PG or not but can he be in their league.


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## Goku (Aug 28, 2003)

what does being 31 have to do with assist totals.

He doesn't have to reinvent the wheel here. Rose never ran the point before. 4.1 is not impossible to double.
1 extra assist per quater. 

It's a fair bit, but he should finish closer to 8 than 4 because,

a) counted on to play as many minutes as his body can withstand
b) not going to be taken out of games regardless of how poorly he is playing, or if he is having trouble guarding people
c) playing on a team which generates all of it's points from passing
d) people who post their ideas in lists like this one are lame


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Goku</b>!
> a) counted on to play as many minutes as his body can withstand
> b) not going to be taken out of games regardless of how poorly he is playing, or if he is having trouble guarding people
> c) playing on a team which generates all of it's points from passing
> d) people who post their ideas in lists like this one are lame


i agree on all points, espeically d) :laugh:


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## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

Top 5 is defenitely to high. He can be good though, especially offensively. I think he can be a top 10 pg offensively, but he'll have a heck of a time trying to guard the little quick pg's. I think if he's looking to create he can probably get 6 or 7 assists a game with the Raps.

Hopefully his play will not tail off like it did with my Bulls. He needed a new situation (he was playing like crap for us) and he's taking advantage of it (he's playing very well for you). The problem I think was not selfishness but with respect. With the Bulls we had a lot of young guys we wanted to build around, and Jalen didn't seem to trust them much. I don't think he felt they had earned his respect enough to warrant passing the ball to them. He trusted himself more, and had no trust in his teammates. So he jacked up bad shots over double teams and was generally a cancer.

This situation is different. He playing with a perrenial allstar player in VC, and obviously he should not have those issues of respect or trust with him. He's playing with vets on this team and he trusts them and is willing to share the ball, and as a result he's playing really well. I've always thought he was best played as a distributor who can score, rather than a scorer who can distribute (which was how he was played in chi-town).


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## MentalPowerHouse (Oct 9, 2003)

Defensively we have Alvin who can guard the opposing points which allows Rose to play point on offense. A situation Rose never had in chicago.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

people who said lebron is a better point guard got proven wrong after the cavs raps game


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Top 10? Maybe. Top 5? Never. Kidd, Marbury, Davis, Francis and Nash have the top 5 locked down.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Basketballboards is obsessed with making lists and ranking players, teams, cities, coaches, etc. Never ceases to amaze me.


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> Basketballboards is obsessed with making lists and ranking players, teams, cities, coaches, etc. Never ceases to amaze me.


So I guess you can't say Shaq is the best center and Jordan is the best player, according to lists.... I think we gotta argue that without lists


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

still think he's 15/8/8 ?


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>seifer0406</b>!
> still think he's 15/8/8 ?


So now that everyone is back on the Vince wagon, time to get off the Jalen wagon. Fickleness! Learn your lessons, people.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I was noticing the other day that the ONLY categories for which Jalen is ranked in the league leaders on nba.com are the following:

Turnovers
Turnovers per game
Turnovers per 48 minutes


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

i was never on the rose wagon.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

at 02-04-2004, seifer wrote this:


> Originally posted by <b>seifer0406</b>!
> still think he's 15/8/8 ?


last post date before this:
12-10-2003 



and i still think Rose is the best suited PG on this team.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> 
> 
> So now that everyone is back on the Vince wagon, time to get off the Jalen wagon. Fickleness! Learn your lessons, people.


haters always look for something to hate. that's the code they live by.


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## gp366 (Jul 19, 2003)

Top 5? In the Central Division maybe.

1. Baron Davis
2. Chauncey Billups
3. Jason Terry
4. Jalen
5. TJ Ford (and closing in)


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>seifer0406</b>!
> I wouldn't call Rose a top "blank" player in any position. He's sort of like Penny when he was a bit healthier. Can handle the ball extremely well, has great court vision. Doesn't possess the speed and explosiveness at his current age but still has enough to create his own shot and can post up on smaller guards. He is a lot like Penny in that sense.


Sure, Penny is still a far superior lowpost player. Rose is decent when against smaller guards, but Penny can post up against same size, height players well as well. Yeah, I always thought Penny could be another guy who can contribute alot on a team like teh Raptors where our Franchise player can play both "with", or "without" the ball. There arent swingmans in the game today can play like that. They often need a special set of plays to flourish(Pierce, Rip Hamiton) or completely an on the ball player "T-mac, Grant Hill" to play up to their max capablities.

I am a Penny fan but I think Penny could have done a better job than Rose in here. Penny has a better one-on-one move and is lowpost scorer, he is simply a better on the ball player still and that's where he can be on a team like the Raps.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> at 02-04-2004, seifer wrote this:
> 
> 
> ...


lol, you can leave if you dont like, the guy has the right to be a cheap guy came in here just try to input some meaningless post and never contribute in 2,3 months!


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> at 02-04-2004, seifer wrote this:
> 
> 
> ...


Just happened to be flipping through some old threads and it reminded me of this little debate we had going several months ago. anyhow, isn't it interesting sometimes to look back at expections of certain players and how that player live up to some people's expections?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> Sure, Penny is still a far superior lowpost player. Rose is decent when against smaller guards, but Penny can post up against same size, height players well as well. Yeah, I always thought Penny could be another guy who can contribute alot on a team like teh Raptors where our Franchise player can play both "with", or "without" the ball. There arent swingmans in the game today can play like that. They often need a special set of plays to flourish(Pierce, Rip Hamiton) or completely an on the ball player "T-mac, Grant Hill" to play up to their max capablities.
> ...


I'm a penny fan as well, I still like to watch him play even at this point of his career. but i have to disagree with you on his postup skills. Penny was a great post up player 5 knee operations ago and 6 years younger, not anymore. He has lost his explosiveness and strength and can no longer create his own shot (not half as effective as when he was at his prime). When you say he can post up well against defenders of his same height, i don't see him have constant sucess posting up against natural 6-7/6-8 small forwards/shooting guards for example like a Finley or Artest or Stackhouse. I would have to say that at this stage, Rose fits the raptors better than penny. If it comes down to the last shot of the game, Rose would be a better second option than Penny.


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