# Team USA: Trim 17 to 12



## -33-

How would you assemble the USA roster, with 17 guys left, they can only take 12 into the FIBA games later this Summer.

The eligable players are:

Melo
Battier
Billups
Bosh
Bryant
Chandler
Durant
Hinrich
Howard
LeBron
Kidd
Miller
Prince
Redd
Redick
Amare
Deron


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## BG7

Melo
Bosh
Bryant
Chandler
Durant
Hinrich
Howard
LeBron
Kidd
Miller
Amare
Deron


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## Basel

Kobe
LeBron
Kidd
Melo
Durant
Howard
Amare
Battier
Redd
Deron
Chandler
Bosh


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## BG7

17 to 15 is easy, Prince and Reddick are the easy cuts.

Then you basically have 3 decisions.

Billups or Hinrich?
Durant or Battier? 
Miller or Redd?


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## BlakeJesus

I'd love for JJ to stay on the team, simply because I love JJ as a player. Plus he'd thrive playing under Coach K again, who knows exactly how to use him. Sadly enough, I doubt he makes the team.

Prince is gone, Redicks gone, Billups, Battier, and Miller are all bye bye as well.


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## MLKG

PG: Kidd / Billups / Deron
SG: Kobe / Redd 
SF: Lebron / Carmelo / Prince
PF: Amare / Bosh
C : Howard / Chandler

Everybody on that team has a role without any redundancies.

They are not going to take an 18 year old.


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## -33-

5 Dwight / Amare / Chandler
4 LeBron / Bosh
3 Melo / Durant
2 Battier / Redd
1 Kobe / Kidd / Deron


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## Roscoe Sheed

Mebarak said:


> 17 to 15 is easy, Prince and Reddick are the easy cuts.
> 
> Then you basically have 3 decisions.
> 
> Billups or Hinrich?
> Durant or Battier?
> Miller or Redd?


So, you think Battier is better than Tayshaun?

You think Hinrich is possibly better than Billups?

You think Miller is even close to Redd?


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## WhoDaBest23

Melo
Bosh
Bryant
Chandler
Durant
Howard
LeBron
Kidd
Battier
Redd
Amare
Deron

Durant over Billups is a toss up. I was really impressed by him in the scrimmage, so therefore I'll take him.


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## BG7

Roscoe Sheed said:


> So, you think Battier is better than Tayshaun?
> 
> You think Hinrich is possibly better than Billups?
> 
> You think Miller is even close to Redd?


Kirk really isn't that far behind Billups at this point. Right now Billups veteran savvy is what separates him from Hinrich right now, but Hinrich is clearly a more talented player than Billups, as well as the better defender of the two. Kirk is also the far superior shooter of the two, and with Deron/Kidd taking up the point the majority of the time, Hinrich's ability to switch over to the two, and shoot.

Miller/Redd. Redd is a better bulk scorer, but Miller is an equal shooter to Redd. Miller is a better passer, defender, rebounder. Miller is a far better role player. 

Durant/Battier...I never really think Prince had a chance here since he is redundant with the other players on the team. I think the plan was originally to try to bring back all the players that competed last year that returned, but Durant may have changed that.


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## o.iatlhawksfan

Mebarak said:


> 17 to 15 is easy, Prince and Reddick are the easy cuts.
> 
> Then you basically have 3 decisions.
> 
> Billups or Hinrich?
> Durant or Battier?
> Miller or Redd?


Billups, they have a passing PG in Kidd, Billups can come off the bench and bring some enery, with his scoring

Battier, Durant's a good offensive player, but they need the defense, and Durant is to inexperience and weak to bring that.

Though one, Miller played very well, and Redd is on of the best shooters on the team. i'd go with Redd though.


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## unluckyseventeen

Mebarak said:


> Kirk really isn't that far behind Billups at this point. Right now Billups veteran savvy is what separates him from Hinrich right now, but Hinrich is clearly a more talented player than Billups, as well as the better defender of the two.


Hahaha. Hinrich is not more talented than Billups. Put the glasses on the table, buddy.


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## BlakeJesus

unluckyseventeen said:


> Hahaha. Hinrich is not more talented than Billups. Put the glasses on the table, buddy.


You're not giving Kirk enough credit. Though I agree Billups is a better player, Kirk's no slouch. 

I picked Kirk over Billups however, Kirk is a better fit for the team ball than Billups is. Plus he's younger.


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## fiElDy

Howard Amare Chandler
LeBron Bosh
Melo Battier 
Bryant Miller
Kidd Williams Hinrich


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## MLKG

Mebarak said:


> Kirk really isn't that far behind Billups at this point. Right now Billups veteran savvy is what separates him from Hinrich right now, but Hinrich is clearly a more talented player than Billups, as well as the better defender of the two. Kirk is also the far superior shooter of the two, and with Deron/Kidd taking up the point the majority of the time, Hinrich's ability to switch over to the two, and shoot.


That didn't make any kind of sense. Billups is a better scorer, a better passer, plays smarter, and is bigger. How is Hinrich any more equiped to play the 2 than Billups? Along with Kidd he's also the teams strongest leader. I think Chauncey's as big a lock as anyone on the team. They wanted him and Kobe so bad last year they let them skip the World Championships as long as they would play in the Olympics.



> Durant/Battier...I never really think Prince had a chance here since he is redundant with the other players on the team.


If Battier makes the team over Prince it's because Coach K loves him more. The only thing he's better at is diving on the ground for loose balls. They are going to see a lot of zones so there is a big need for a long forward with a high basketball IQ who can handle the ball and initiate some offense.



> I think the plan was originally to try to bring back all the players that competed last year that returned, but Durant may have changed that.


I don't think that was ever the plan. I'm actually pretty sure that it was understood some gusy were going to lose their spots once Kobe, Kidd, and Chauncey were ready to go.


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## MLKG

GregOden said:


> I picked Kirk over Billups however, Kirk is a better fit for the team ball than Billups is. Plus he's younger.


Why does youth matter? In my opinion that's a negative.

Didn't all the losing begin when we started sending all the 19 and 20 year olds, no matter how talented they were?


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## BG7

The only thing that Billups has on Hinrich is respect from the referees. On 82games.com, they have an article on how Chauncey Billups gets the most undeserved free throws in the league. Hinrich drives, gets hammered, and its a no call. Billups will not get this treatment from the referees in international competition, which takes away Billups main scoring weapon. This isn't a part of Hinrich's game, he never goes to the line, and is used to not getting calls. 

Just comparing the raw numbers, Hinrich = 44.8 FG% 41.5 3PT% Billups = 42.7 FG% 34.5 3PT%

I think Billups is definitely one of those players who is not built for the international game.


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## Diable

If Brand,Wade and Paul weren't out with injuries it would be a lot more difficult.Each of them would be contending for starting spots on this team and you'd have three more cuts to make.
As for Billups vs Hinrich I would probably go with Hinrich.Neither of them is a great fit for the tempo this team would like to play,but Billups is a system player.He has trouble defending quick point guards and he can't really create with either the dribble or the pass.I know people love to overrate him,but seriously what does he really provide that Hinrich doesn't.He's not a better defender and neither of them are great point guards.Hinrich is younger and he fits in better...Which doesn't mean I'm his biggest fan.
Redick doesn't have any chance so long as the other shooters don't completely bomb out.Chandler is way too one dimensional.He doesn't really provide as much as any other bigs...Although I think he's mobile enough to defend on the perimeter the way you need to internationally.Prince didn't look great in the scrimmage and if Durant stays I think that sends him off.

I think there's a possibility that Amare gets cut from this team.It's just a hunch,but he seems to have a lot of trouble matching up defensively in the International game.Having a guy who can't stay with a big in FIBA can really cause you problems and Amare has real problems guarding players who can stretch the floor.


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## -33-

Kobe played ALOT of point in that scrimmage. And although he isn't obviously a natural PG, he does a fairly good job of getting others involved while he's playing there.


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## MLKG

Mebarak said:


> The only thing that Billups has on Hinrich is respect from the referees. On 82games.com, they have an article on how Chauncey Billups gets the most undeserved free throws in the league. Hinrich drives, gets hammered, and its a no call. Billups will not get this treatment from the referees in international competition, which takes away Billups main scoring weapon. This isn't a part of Hinrich's game, he never goes to the line, and is used to not getting calls.


That's not what that article was about. It was about players who get more free throws than you would expect based on style of play. Instead of calling it what it really was - a rating for drawing fouls as a skill (and it IS a skill, just like drawing walks in baseball is a skill) - they just threw a "star treatment" label on it to sexy it up.

Look at the rest of the guys in the top 5. Corey Maggette, Paul Pierce, Dwyane Wade, Allen Iverson. People have known for years that those guys are among the best at drawing fouls.

The article also explicitly states that since Billups shoots so many free throws on intentional fouls, they may not have filtered them all out correctly.


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## MLKG

Since everybody wants to talk about how Billups isn't a good fit for this style of play and supposedly isn't a playmaker, am I the only one who noticed he had 7 assists in only 19 minutes in that scrimmage?


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## HB

Kidd/Hinrich/Deron
Kobe/Bron/Redd
Miller/Battier
Bosh/Durant
Dwight/Amare


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## JoeD

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> Billups, they have a passing PG in Kidd, Billups can come off the bench and bring some enery, with his scoring


Why are you saying Billups would bring energy? He plays the slowest style of any pg. He isn't a great scorer either, and he is probably going to be without his nba advantage of getting to the foul line easily.

I think it is a toss up between Kirk and Billups. I'm not sure how to rate Hinrich's defensive value since I don't know the competition he'll be going against. I would go with Hinrich though because I think Deron and Kidd will handle all the playing time from that spot in the shortened international play, so I'd rather have a specialist and someone to play the 2.

For the other spots I'd go with Durant and Redd. Redd is just better than Miller and I think Durant is really comfortable with the international game and he could be a great spark.


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## MLKG

To anybody who doesn't have all four of Howard/Amare/Bosh/Chandler, wants Durant to play, and thinks Carmelo or Lebron can handle the 4:

Have fun losing.


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## Astral

Kidd / Deron / Hinrich
Kobe / LeBron 
Prince / Miller 
Bosh / Amare
Howard / Chandler

+Durant probably. Too good a scorer to pass up.

Prince for defense since Kidd will be playing team D mostly.
Bosh over Amare because he's more mobile - starting int'l big men tend to be pretty fast.
Howard / Chandler for bruisers and boarders.


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## SeaNet

Shaq_Diesel said:


> Kobe played ALOT of point in that scrimmage. And although he isn't obviously a natural PG, he does a fairly good job of getting others involved while he's playing there.


A good job of getting people involved? What were you watching? Kobe took more bad shots in that game than everyone else combined. It was a standard Kobe jackfest every time he had the ball. He appears to be only faintly aware of the fact that he is playing not only w/ 4 other players, but 4 of the best players in the NBA. It sickened me watching Kobe out there. Same old same old team USA when Kobe has the ball in his hands.


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## MRedd22

Mebarak said:


> Melo
> Bosh
> Bryant
> Chandler
> Durant
> *Hinrich*
> Howard
> LeBron
> Kidd
> Miller
> Amare
> Deron



Who else saw this coming?


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## L

Kidd/Deron/Hinrich
Kobe/Redd
LBJ/Melo/Battier
Bosh/Amare
Howard/Chandler

-I placed Battier over Durant because we need more perimeter D aside from Deron, Hinrich and Kobe(to an extent-Kidd as well).

-Deron as back up pg since he is the second best playmaker out of the pg list. Hinrich over Billups because he is younger and basically gives the same things from Billups(shooting and defense).

-Miller was too trigger happy in that scrimmage imo. And taking Redd over him is a no brainer.

-Redick sucks imo. All he brings is shooting and we already have that in Redd.

-Battier over Prince because he is a better spot up shooter imo and is more willing to take charges. Perhaps the only player out of this crop that is willing to do so in the FIBA games.


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## -33-

SeaNet said:


> A good job of getting people involved? What were you watching? Kobe took more bad shots in that game than everyone else combined. It was a standard Kobe jackfest every time he had the ball. He appears to be only faintly aware of the fact that he is playing not only w/ 4 other players, but 4 of the best players in the NBA. It sickened me watching Kobe out there. Same old same old team USA when Kobe has the ball in his hands.


Kobe was hot at the end of the game, why wouldn't you want the best player on the floor taking those shots? He hit, and his team won.

With Kobe on the floor, he DEMANDS the attention of the defense more so than anyone else on our team. If you are going to look solely at his FGA, please tell me why Kobe shouldn't lead the team in FGA on most nights? He's the best scorer, give him the rock and let him do his thing. When the D overplayed him, he was unselfish and got still got his team buckets. I'm not advokating for Kobe to play a ton of PG, but if you can put Kobe-Wade-Melo-LeBron-? on the floor next summer in the Olympics, that's quite possibly the best lineup Team USA has seen since 92.


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## Astral

Shaq_Diesel said:


> Kobe was hot at the end of the game, why wouldn't you want the best player on the floor taking those shots? He hit, and his team won.
> 
> With Kobe on the floor, he DEMANDS the attention of the defense more so than anyone else on our team. If you are going to look solely at his FGA, please tell me why Kobe shouldn't lead the team in FGA on most nights? He's the best scorer, give him the rock and let him do his thing. When the D overplayed him, he was unselfish and got still got his team buckets. I'm not advokating for Kobe to play a ton of PG, *but if you can put Kobe-Wade-Melo-LeBron-? on the floor next summer in the Olympics, that's quite possibly the best lineup Team USA has seen since 92*.


?!?!?!?!
That lineup would a) Get destroyed on defense and b) get dunked on constantly and c) needs 5 balls to play well - 2 for Melo.


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## Premier

5 Howard | Chandler
4 Bosh | Stoudemire
3 LeBron | Anthony | Miller
2 Bryant | Redd
1 Kidd | Billups | Williams


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## SeaNet

Shaq_Diesel said:


> Kobe was hot at the end of the game, why wouldn't you want the best player on the floor taking those shots? He hit, and his team won.
> 
> With Kobe on the floor, he DEMANDS the attention of the defense more so than anyone else on our team. If you are going to look solely at his FGA, please tell me why Kobe shouldn't lead the team in FGA on most nights? He's the best scorer, give him the rock and let him do his thing. When the D overplayed him, he was unselfish and got still got his team buckets. I'm not advokating for Kobe to play a ton of PG, but if you can put Kobe-Wade-Melo-LeBron-? on the floor next summer in the Olympics, that's quite possibly the best lineup Team USA has seen since 92.


FGA? I could care less about FGA. I'm basing it on watching the man come down the court, decide he was going to shoot as soon as he got the ball in his hands, and take awful shot after awful shot all game long while the rest of the team stood around and watched him. Approaching the game like that is how Team USA has gotten its *** kicked the past several go arounds. There's this thing called working together and taking the shot that the offense provides the team. Its often associated w/ winning basketball teams at the highest levels of the sport.

Redd was also awful in this regard. I'm not sure if Carmelo looked to pass once all game, but at least he was going to the basket and taking good shots. Lebron seemed to be having an internal struggle all game long between his inner JKidd and his inner Kobe.


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## Carbo04

Dwight Howard / Tyson Chandler
Chris Bosh / Amare Stoudemire
LeBron James / Carmelo Anthony / Kevin Durant
Kobe Bryant / Michael Redd
Jason Kidd / Deron Williams / Kirk Hinrich


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## -33-

Astral said:


> ?!?!?!?!
> That lineup would a) Get destroyed on defense and b) get dunked on constantly and c) needs 5 balls to play well - 2 for Melo.


From what I've seen of our international competition, their 4 man is usually not someone banging on the block. More of a reason that LeBron could handle that assignment. Kobe is a great defender, and LeBron/Wade play passing lanes very well. They wouldn't be shutting down teams on D, but they could get by especially with a good shot blocker like Dwight/Bosh/Amare behind them.


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## -33-

SeaNet said:


> FGA? I could care less about FGA. I'm basing it on watching the man come down the court, decide he was going to shoot as soon as he got the ball in his hands, and take awful shot after awful shot all game long while the rest of the team stood around and watched him. Approaching the game like that is how Team USA has gotten its *** kicked the past several go arounds. There's this thing called working together and taking the shot that the offense provides the team. Its often associated w/ winning basketball teams at the highest levels of the sport.
> 
> Redd was also awful in this regard. I'm not sure if Carmelo looked to pass once all game, but at least he was going to the basket and taking good shots. Lebron seemed to be having an internal struggle all game long between his inner JKidd and his inner Kobe.


I don't know how much you payed attention to that scrimmage, but there really wasn't much organization on offense. You could tell that they occassionally were running some set plays, but for the most part it was a wide-open offense with slight structure. That scrimmage should be no indication of how Coach K will have that team play in a few weeks.


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## SeaNet

Shaq_Diesel said:


> I don't know how much you payed attention to that scrimmage, but there really wasn't much organization on offense. You could tell that they occassionally were running some set plays, but for the most part it was a wide-open offense with slight structure. That scrimmage should be no indication of how Coach K will have that team play in a few weeks.


You, like Kobe, don't seem to be able to distinguish between looking for a quick shot and jacking up whatever kind of crap shot whenever you feel like it. IMO, the two are entirely separate and easily distinguishable things.


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## BG7

MLKG said:


> That's not what that article was about. It was about players who get more free throws than you would expect based on style of play. Instead of calling it what it really was - a rating for drawing fouls as a skill (and it IS a skill, just like drawing walks in baseball is a skill) - they just threw a "star treatment" label on it to sexy it up.
> 
> Look at the rest of the guys in the top 5. Corey Maggette, Paul Pierce, Dwyane Wade, Allen Iverson. People have known for years that those guys are among the best at drawing fouls.
> 
> The article also explicitly states that since Billups shoots so many free throws on intentional fouls, they may not have filtered them all out correctly.


Its a good skill though only in the NBA. These international referees will not give him these calls, even if he's hacked. Hinrich gets this treatment from the NBA refs, so he's used to it. For the sake of continuity, Hinrich would also make more sense, especially since Kirk was one of the best players last year on that mess. 

Of course, who knows, maybe the coaching staff throws a curveball, and Billups/Hinrich are in, Deron is out.


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## Kuskid

I say cut Prince, Redick, Miller, Durant, and Hinrich. I agree that Billups vs. Hinrich is basically a tossup, but I went with Billups mainly because he could guard most international 2's, which Kirk can't do. And whoever thinks Melo can't play the international 4- you need to get off the message boards and watch some games, he more than handled it at FIBA's last year, he excelled at it. It's not the same as the NBA. I think Lebron could hold it down for spurts also, but he's obviously less comfortable on the block than Melo is since he doesn't spend anywhere near the time there that Melo does.


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## JoeD

Kuskid said:


> I agree that Billups vs. Hinrich is basically a tossup, but I went with Billups mainly because he could guard most international 2's, which Kirk can't do.


I think you have that backwards.


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## Flash is the Future

PG: Jason Kidd/Chauncey Billups/Deron Williams
SG: Kobe Bryant/Michael Redd
SF: Carmelo Anthony/Tayshaun Prince
PF: Lebron James/Chris Bosh
C: Amare Stoudemire/Dwight Howard/Tyson Chandler


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## -33-

SeaNet said:


> You, like Kobe, don't seem to be able to distinguish between looking for a quick shot and jacking up whatever kind of crap shot whenever you feel like it. IMO, the two are entirely separate and easily distinguishable things.


I'm just gonna say this - you can watch the game as a fan, or you can watch it as someone who has played/coached basketball - and you'll see two completely different games.

If you really think Kobe was out there just chucking, then that's fine, but it's not true. The only backing you have to your argument is that he scored the last 7 (?) points of the game, leading his team to a comeback win. In atleast the last two shots, I know that they were set plays to let Kobe go to work. They flattened out and let Kobe create at the top of the key, is that Kobe's fault? or is that a play designed to utilize Kobe's talent advantage against everyone else on the floor?


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## BG7

Kuskid said:


> I say cut Prince, Redick, Miller, Durant, and Hinrich. I agree that Billups vs. Hinrich is basically a tossup, but I went with Billups mainly because he could guard most international 2's, which Kirk can't do. And whoever thinks Melo can't play the international 4- you need to get off the message boards and watch some games, he more than handled it at FIBA's last year, he excelled at it. It's not the same as the NBA. I think Lebron could hold it down for spurts also, but he's obviously less comfortable on the block than Melo is since he doesn't spend anywhere near the time there that Melo does.


You do realize that Kirk guards shooting guards in the NBA every night, and made All NBA Defensive 2nd Team while doing so.


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## HB

MLKG said:


> To anybody who doesn't have all four of Howard/Amare/Bosh/Chandler, wants Durant to play, and thinks Carmelo or Lebron can handle the 4:
> 
> Have fun losing.


Chandler is VERY expendable. I like the idea of having Durant at the 4 for a few minutes. He would work nicely in a pick and pop situation. Besides Amare and Bosh, no other bigs on team USA can maximize that play


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## Damian Necronamous

PG: Jason Kidd...Chauncey Billups
SG: Kobe Bryant...Michael Redd...Mike Miller
SF: LeBron James...Carmelo Anthony...Tayshaun Prince
PF: Amare Stoudemire...Chris Bosh
C: Dwight Howard...Tyson Chandler

That's my lineup for Team USA. I'd put Prince and Chandler on the team for defensive purposes. A Chandler/Howard combo would completely lock down the paint for the opposing team, and Prince can hold off the perimeter. I doubt that Deron Williams would get much PT over Kidd or Billups, so I'd throw Mike Miller in there for some more outside shooting if the team ever gets in a drought from the field.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt

Howard/Chandler
Bosh/Amare
Bron/Melo/Miller
Kobe/Redd
Kidd/Billups/Deron


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## -33-

I think the biggest issue with leaving Chandler off the team is that Amare seems to always get himself into foul trouble


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## JNice

Dwight Howard / Tyson Chandler
Chris Bosh / Amare Stoudemire
LeBron James / Carmelo Anthony / TPrince
Kobe Bryant / Mike Miller / Redd
Jason Kidd / Deron Williams


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## Cap

SeaNet said:


> You, like Kobe, don't seem to be able to distinguish between looking for a quick shot and jacking up whatever kind of crap shot whenever you feel like it. IMO, the two are entirely separate and easily distinguishable things.


Well, not entirely easily distinguishable as you clearly don't quite understand the difference between the two. Like, at all.


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## Blue

..


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## Roscoe Sheed

Flash is the Future said:


> PG: Jason Kidd/Chauncey Billups/Deron Williams
> SG: Kobe Bryant/Michael Redd
> SF: Carmelo Anthony/Tayshaun Prince
> PF: Lebron James/Chris Bosh
> C: Amare Stoudemire/Dwight Howard/Tyson Chandler


that's the line-up right there


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## dubc15

reddick dominated on the NCAA level, i don't see why he wouldn't perform on a similar level in international ball. i think the team needs a couple pure shooters: either mm or reddick


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## MemphisX

PG Kidd, Deron, Billups
SG Kobe, Miller
SF Bron, Durant
PF Amare, Melo, Prince
C Howard, Chandler


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## BlakeJesus

Redd is a better shooter than both, and Redick is a better three shooter than Miller IMO.

I would absolutely love to see Redick on the team, him and Coach K being reunited would be phenomenal, and I believe JJ would play VERY well. However I have a tough time seeing him make the team, let alone getting plays designed around him.


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## RoddneyThaRippa

How does Carmelo not start after what he did for Team USA last season? People are still in love with Lebron, even after his breakdown in the finals.


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## Krimzon

PG: Kidd, Williams, Billups
SG: Kobe, Redd
SF: Melo, Lebron, Tayshaun Prince
PF: Amare, Bosh
C: Chandler, Howard

I think Kobe will have the most playing time. Redd will be a good substitute while Kobe rest for a few minutes.

This team looks like like it will get second place. First place...let's see what happens.


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## SeaNet

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> How does Carmelo not start after what he did for Team USA last season? People are still in love with Lebron, even after his breakdown in the finals.


Because I'm not sure of Carmelo threw a single pass in the entire scrimmage? And I would be very surprised to find out he threw more than you can count on one hand.


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## Astral

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> How does Carmelo not start after what he did for Team USA last season? People are still in love with Lebron, even after his breakdown in the finals.


It doesn't look like Team USA won with Carmelo does it? Pretty much the same story for Denver.

The only thing Melo can do is score. He's an awful defender and is a blackhole of passes.


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## Brandname

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> How does Carmelo not start after what he did for Team USA last season? People are still in love with Lebron, even after his breakdown in the *finals*.


There you go.


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## NetsFan

I would still let carmelo start since lebron still doesn't know how to put the ball in the hoop with a jump shoot.

Team USA need atleast two major scoring threats which would be Kobe and Melo


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## RoddneyThaRippa

SeaNet said:


> Because I'm not sure of Carmelo threw a single pass in the entire scrimmage? And I would be very surprised to find out he threw more than you can count on one hand.


He actually had a really nice pass off a drive that led to an Amare dunk. And who really passed on that team? Everyone was shooting, even Deron Williams. 

The guy is the second best scorer in the league. He's good on the offensive glass and is a great passer. He was the best player on the team last year.


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## RoddneyThaRippa

Astral said:


> It doesn't look like Team USA won with Carmelo does it? Pretty much the same story for Denver.
> 
> The only thing Melo can do is score. He's an awful defender and is a blackhole of passes.


This is the worst argument in basketball. There are four other players on the court. In fact, Carmelo was one of the reasons they even got to the medal round. According to your logic, Denver and Team USA's success hinges on Carmelo, which is a moronic argument and you know it. Let's go ahead and replace all 12 players they had last year simply because they didn't win the gold medal. That's your logic, right? 

And if you don't think Carmelo can pass, you don't watch Denver play at all.


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## MemphisX

Why are people so infatuated with making great scorers passers? Boggles my mind...


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## RoddneyThaRippa

Well, you gotta pass moreso in the international game. But Carmelo really is a good passer. People just like to hate on him.


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## Pinball

SeaNet said:


> A good job of getting people involved? What were you watching? Kobe took more bad shots in that game than everyone else combined. It was a standard Kobe jackfest every time he had the ball. He appears to be only faintly aware of the fact that he is playing not only w/ 4 other players, but 4 of the best players in the NBA. It sickened me watching Kobe out there. Same old same old team USA when Kobe has the ball in his hands.


I'm not really a big Kobe fan anymore. He's a ball hog for sure but he brings qualities to the table that I think Team USA has lacked in years oast. He's very intense. He won't be walking off the court with a smile after losses. He's a hard worker. Whether it is in the gym, on the track, or on the court, Kobe gives 100% in everything that he does. That is bound to rub off on some of the young guys. In addition to that, he's an excellent player. We've had great players in the past but Kobe brings three key ingredients to the table: 1) Shooting-he's a very good shooter with unlimited range 2) Defense-he'll be an excellent defender with less weight and better talent around him 3) Pedigree-he's been a champion and is known as a "money player". Things like that can't be found in the boxscore. Players will feel very confident down the stretch in tight games with Bryant on their side.


----------



## Astral

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> This is the worst argument in basketball. There are four other players on the court. In fact, Carmelo was one of the reasons they even got to the medal round. According to your logic, Denver and Team USA's success hinges on Carmelo, which is a moronic argument and you know it. Let's go ahead and replace all 12 players they had last year simply because they didn't win the gold medal. That's your logic, right?
> 
> And if you don't think Carmelo can pass, you don't watch Denver play at all.


Right, that's my logic. /sarcasm.
I didn't take it that far. I said that Denver has world class talent and can't go anywhere, same with Team USA last year. 

I'm talking about set up your teammates passes, not usual "let's swing the ball around" passes. There is a reason why they wanted a pass-first PG. Carmelo can't create for his teammates. 

He's a 6'9" man who can't play D, who can't set up his teammates and who can barely board. Want to know what's REALLY sad? He's not even a good shooter.


----------



## Blue

..


----------



## Astral

Power_Ballin said:


> Wow....whats next....? I guess you just think that Anthony is pretty much inept in every aspect of basketballthinking....PLEASE. 'Melo was TEAM USA last year. You need to get off of David Sterns dick, and start watching the actual games. *He's probably one of the more versatile players in the league right now*.


 Rofl. What are you, 12? "Awww, he hurt my little theory so now I'll bring it up in every random thread"?

Yeah. Melo's versatile.
<table class="playerStatTable careerAvg" border="1" bordercolor="#cccccc" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr class="title"><td class="year">Season</td> <td class="team">Team</td> <td>G</td> <td>GS</td> <td>MPG</td> <td>FG%</td> <td>3p%</td> <td>FT%</td> <td>OFF</td> <td>DEF</td> <td>RPG</td> <td>APG</td> <td>SPG</td> <td>BPG</td> <td>TO</td> <td>PF</td> <td>PPG</td> </tr> <tr class="career"> <td class="col_1">Career</td> <td class="col_2"> </td> <td>302</td> <td>302</td> <td>36.5</td> <td>*0.455*</td> <td>*0.279*</td> <td>0.798</td> <td>2.0</td> <td>3.7</td> <td>*5.7*</td> <td>*2.9*</td> <td>*1.1*</td> <td>*0.4*</td> <td>*3.06*</td> <td>*2.90*</td> <td>24.1</td></tr></tbody></table>He's a real Andrei Kirilenko.

Did I say he's inept in everything? I pointed out his major flaws, and there are a lot of them. 
Melo's a great scorer. That's about it. It's just too bad that Team USA has a much better scorer in Bryant - and Bryant wont be walking off the court with a smile on his face if they lose. Hell, Bryant wont be walking around with a smile on his face period. This team has enough scorers and shooters. They got destroyed on defense last year, and Melo's not gonna help that. The sooner Coach K realizes that Melo can't play organized D the more chances Team USA will have of winning.


----------



## SeaNet

MemphisX said:


> Why are people so infatuated with making great scorers passers? Boggles my mind...


I don't want them to be 'passers' I just want them to through some passes for other people, and make good plays as opposed to forcing their own O. I thought Kobe and Redd forced their own O waaaaaay too much. Melo played well, but he really only looked for his own shot. He got good shots going to the basket, and he finished in the paint tremendously well, but he was really looking for his own O. Too much for international play, IMO.


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## Nate505

Shaq_Diesel said:


> How would you assemble the USA roster, with 17 guys left, they can only take 12 into the FIBA games later this Summer.


SG: Kobe, Redd
PG: Kidd, Deron, Billups
PF: Amare, Bosh, Battier
SF: Lebron, Melo
C: Howard, Chandler

Not that I'd be thrilled about having Tyson on the team, but I figure it's better to have better depth in the bigs department and the point guard slot, mostly because the SG's and SF's are pretty interchangable. That being said, Battier might be a decent spot as a PF instead of Chandler.

EDIT: Yikes, I thought that was Brad Miller. I would definitely leave Mike off and put Battier on then.


----------



## SeaNet

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Well, you gotta pass moreso in the international game. But Carmelo really is a good passer. People just like to hate on him.


Coming out of college, I thought Carmelo was going to be one of my favorite players, because I loved the way he mixed both interior and perimeter scoring w/ solid passing and rebounding. But in the pros, I really haven't liked his approach to the game. And I think when it comes to going up against other national teams he's going to need to pass more than he did in that scrimmage. You have to play together as a team to win in international basketball, and I don't think he or Kobe did that in the last game.


----------



## Greg Ostertag!

My only contribution is this: Mike Miller should be on the team. He is built for international basketball.

I'd probably go with:

Kidd/Deron
Kobe/Wade
Melo/Miller/Durant
Bosh/Bron/Battier
Howard/Amare

My concept is: two outstanding floor generals, as many lights-out shooters but with a second dimension and a couple of beasts on the inside. Wade is dubious, but will get in on name value.


----------



## Kidd's Nets

PG: Kidd/Deron/Billups
SG: Bryant/Miller
SF: James/Anthony/Durant
PF: Stoudemire/Bosh
C: Howard/Chandler

I like that big man rotation better.


----------



## HB

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> How does Carmelo not start after what he did for Team USA last season? People are still in love with Lebron, even after his breakdown in the finals.


Lets see, the squad as is right now has a lot of capable scorers. Leaving Melo off wouldnt hurt their chances off scoring. Kobe and Bron are quite capable of that. Melo isnt exactly a good defender, rebounder or passer. Lol and you mention Bron's breakdown in the finals, has Melo even advanced out of the first round yet?


----------



## futuristxen

Shaq_Diesel said:


> How would you assemble the USA roster, with 17 guys left, they can only take 12 into the FIBA games later this Summer.
> 
> The eligable players are:
> 
> Melo
> Battier
> Bosh
> Bryant
> Hinrich
> Howard
> LeBron
> Kidd
> Miller
> Redd
> Amare
> Deron


Kidd/Deron/Hinrich
Kobe/Redd
Lebron/Miller/Battier/Melo
Amare/Chandler
Howard

It occurred to be while making the team that Chandler is the only other big guy besides Howard who can rebound and intimidate in the paint. And then when I thought about Amare vs. Bosh on which to take, I figured since I was taking Chandler and Howard, I wanted a guy who could dominate scoring in the post--and that's Amare. In addition I like him running with Kidd.

A lot of small forwards there, but obviously Lebron can play 1-4, Melo can play both forward spots, and Battier can also defend 2's.

But the thinking would be that you're going to be playing Kobe a lot anyways, so it's not that big of a deal not to have a lot of depth there. Hinrich can play some off guard too depending on matchups. So I'm not worried about defending the 2.

I do worry about this team inside. Particularly if Howard gets into foul trouble. I think Howard is probably worth the most of any player to Team USA just because of how screwed they are if he goes down to injury or fouls. We really need to get Oden developed fast for the Olympics.


----------



## Blue

..


----------



## seifer0406

Well, your main core of bigs would be Amare, Bosh, Howard. Your guards would be Kidd, Deron Williams, and Kobe. Those 6 players are locks in my opinion, since there aren't that many players that provide the team with what these 6 players provide. Since you want a sharp outside shooter, you would go with Michael Redd. I would flip a coin between Shane Battier and Tayshaun Prince as the team's defensive wing with 3 pt range. I would probably go with Battier since he seems to be more accurate from the corners ala Bruce Bowen. Lebron and Melo would be on the team as well. They have shown their commitment to the US national team by showing up the previous 2 times unlike some of the other stars. Because of that, they should be rewarded another chance.

That leaves 2 more spots to be filled. I would go with Tyson Chandler and Kirk Hinrich. Chandler for his shot blocking. I chose Hinrich over Billups because Billups is too similar to Kidd and Deron Williams as all 3 of them are big guards. Hinrich is more of a shooter.

So

C: Howard/Chandler
PF: Bosh/Amare
SF: Lebron/Melo/Battier
SG: Kobe/Redd
PG: Kidd/Williams/Hinrich


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa

> Right, that's my logic. /sarcasm.
> I didn't take it that far. I said that Denver has world class talent and can't go anywhere, same with Team USA last year.


What was the point of you making those comments, then, since you responded to my comment about him being in the starting lineup? Did you watch the playoffs last season? Carmelo was incredible. He had nothing to do with Denver losing. Same thing with when he was with Team USA, who, by the way, got third. They didn't lose and it is revisionist for people to continue to suggest that. 



> I'm talking about set up your teammates passes, not usual "let's swing the ball around" passes. There is a reason why they wanted a pass-first PG. Carmelo can't create for his teammates.


Carmelo can't create for his teammates? Great, yet another basketball "fan" that feels qualified to make comments about players that you rarely watch. Carmelo is a great passer, actually, and he makes plays for his teammates in Denver on a consistent basis. You don't know what you're talking about. This wouldn't be the first time, of course. 



> He's a 6'9" man who can't play D, who can't set up his teammates and who can barely board. Want to know what's REALLY sad? He's not even a good shooter.



Aside from the fact that he's closer to 6'7, 6'8, his defense isn't good because he doesn't exert an effort. He's capable of playing good defense. And since when couldn't he board? He's not a good shooter? You're just trying to make a name on this board by showing out. You don't have a clue.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa

SeaNet said:


> Coming out of college, I thought Carmelo was going to be one of my favorite players, because I loved the way he mixed both interior and perimeter scoring w/ solid passing and rebounding. But in the pros, I really haven't liked his approach to the game. And I think when it comes to going up against other national teams he's going to need to pass more than he did in that scrimmage. You have to play together as a team to win in international basketball, and I don't think he or Kobe did that in the last game.


I guess I don't understand this. Carmelo hasn't been a selfish player since Karl got here. He really is a superb passer, but doesn't have the ball-handling skills to be a playmaker on the level of Wade or Lebron. 

I think part of this perception comes from how Karl uses him: mid left block in the post. That's where he gets 60-70 percent of his touches. He's more apt to score in that position than pass, especially when he can face up and use his jab step.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa

HB said:


> Lets see, the squad as is right now has a lot of capable scorers. Leaving Melo off wouldnt hurt their chances off scoring. Kobe and Bron are quite capable of that. Melo isnt exactly a good defender, rebounder or passer. Lol and you mention Bron's breakdown in the finals, has Melo even advanced out of the first round yet?


Lebron isn't on Carmelo's level as a scorer for a lot of reasons. He's a poor midrange shooter, doesn't go in the post often, and doesn't have Carmelo's "knack" for scoring in diverse ways. Carmelo is a great passer, except to those who haven't seen him play a whole lot, and he is a better offensive rebounder than Lebron. 

As far as Carmelo's lack of success in the playoffs, that is no fault of his own. Did you watch the Spurs series? He was on fire, doing whatever it took to get the win. They lost that series because Iverson couldn't hit easy shots. It's that simple. In the past playoff series', Carmelo didn't have a player like Iverson to keep the defense from caving in on him. He showed what he can do with space to work. 

People just love to hate Carmelo because he isn't a media darling like Wade or Lebron and isn't very flashy. Still, he's the second best scorer in the NBA with passing and rebounding skills. Lebron hasn't shown much at all in international play because it is more difficult for him to run the court and the defense forces the ball out of his hands. He's awful off the ball, unlike Carmelo. What has he done to warrant starting over Carmelo?


----------



## Brandname

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Lebron isn't on Carmelo's level as a scorer for a lot of reasons. He's a poor midrange shooter, doesn't go in the post often, and doesn't have Carmelo's "knack" for scoring in diverse ways. Carmelo is a great passer, except to those who haven't seen him play a whole lot, and he is a better offensive rebounder than Lebron.


Lebron was a better jump shooter than Carmelo over the course of the entire season last year. Carmelo is better in the post, but I can't think of any other instances in which Melo is a better scorer than Lebron. A lot of people seem to think he's a better shooter, but I can't find any stats that bear this out. Last season, Lebron shot .394 eFG% *on jump shots*, while Melo shot worse at .378 eFG% *on jump shots*. Kobe of course dwarfs them both at .467 eFG% on jump shots. Kobe is clearly a much better shooter than Lebron. Carmelo is not. On the break, Lebron is the best scorer in the league.

Not to mention Lebron is a better passer, rebounder, defender, and he takes care of the ball better. He produced fewer turnovers per game than Melo, while being the primary ball-handler for his team. Carmelo is a finisher, and most of his turnovers come from ball-handling violations rather than missed passes.

Also interesting to note is that while everyone complains about how Lebron commits too many offensive fouls, Melo committed over 50% more offensive fouls than Bron did last year.



> As far as Carmelo's lack of success in the playoffs, that is no fault of his own. Did you watch the Spurs series? He was on fire, doing whatever it took to get the win. They lost that series because Iverson couldn't hit easy shots. It's that simple. *In the past playoff series', Carmelo didn't have a player like Iverson to keep the defense from caving in on him. He showed what he can do with space to work. *


Wow, and you had the _audacity _to point at Lebron's struggles in the finals. Talk about a double standard.



> People just love to hate Carmelo because he isn't a media darling like Wade or Lebron and isn't very flashy. Still, he's the second best scorer in the NBA with passing and rebounding skills. Lebron hasn't shown much at all in international play because it is more difficult for him to run the court and the defense forces the ball out of his hands. He's awful off the ball, unlike Carmelo. What has he done to warrant starting over Carmelo?


People don't like Carmelo for various reasons. He does turn into a black hole at times, shooting early and often. He's had some off court incidents. He comes off as arrogant sometimes, saying things like he was the best player in the '03 draft before they ever played a game, and that he should have won rookie of the year, etc. I'm not saying they are valid/invalid reasons, but there are definitely a lot of reasons that people might not like him.

But the idea that Lebron has been terrible in international play has been wayyyy exaggerated.

For example, he led the team in FG% at .582 (EDIT: Actually Chris Bosh shot at .654, but only took 26 FGA the entire tournament). Carmelo was at .504. This doesn't mean he's scored more efficiently because he was bad at the line (Melo wasn't much better) and he took fewer 3s than Melo, but he's been far from terrible. Taking all that into account, I'd estimate they were probably close in scoring efficiency overall. 

But Lebron wasn't supposed to be a scorer on that team, it was clear to anyone watching. That's why he was 2nd to Chris Paul in APG for the Team USA, having over twice as many assists at Melo. 

He also led Team USA in RPG. 

He's not on the team to score. There are plenty of scorers on the team. A lot of people make the argument that there are too many scorers and not enough versatile players. That's why he's on the team. He didn't take nearly as many shots as Carmelo did in the WC last year, but that's because it wasn't his role on the team. Wade and Melo were the primary scorers on that team.

EDIT: Also, I'm by no means saying Lebron's been spectacular in international play. He's committed a lot of turnovers and only shot 11-20 from the FT line. But his struggles have definitely been exaggerated.

I should also add that I think Carmelo is a better 1 on 1 scorer than Lebron.


----------



## L

seifer0406 said:


> Well, your main core of bigs would be Amare, Bosh, Howard. Your guards would be Kidd, Deron Williams, and Kobe. Those 6 players are locks in my opinion, since there aren't that many players that provide the team with what these 6 players provide. Since you want a sharp outside shooter, you would go with Michael Redd. I would flip a coin between Shane Battier and Tayshaun Prince as the team's defensive wing with 3 pt range. I would probably go with Battier since he seems to be more accurate from the corners ala Bruce Bowen. Lebron and Melo would be on the team as well. They have shown their commitment to the US national team by showing up the previous 2 times unlike some of the other stars. Because of that, they should be rewarded another chance.
> 
> That leaves 2 more spots to be filled. I would go with Tyson Chandler and Kirk Hinrich. Chandler for his shot blocking. I chose Hinrich over Billups because Billups is too similar to Kidd and Deron Williams as all 3 of them are big guards. Hinrich is more of a shooter.
> 
> So
> 
> C: Howard/Chandler
> PF: Bosh/Amare
> SF: Lebron/Melo/Battier
> SG: Kobe/Redd
> PG: Kidd/Williams/Hinrich





L said:


> Kidd/Deron/Hinrich
> Kobe/Redd
> LBJ/Melo/Battier
> Bosh/Amare
> Howard/Chandler



:biggrin: 

2 for my lineup!


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa

> Lebron was a better jump shooter than Carmelo over the course of the entire season last year. Carmelo is better in the post, but I can't think of any other instances in which Melo is a better scorer than Lebron. A lot of people seem to think he's a better shooter, but I can't find any stats that bear this out. Last season, Lebron shot .394 eFG% *on jump shots*, while Melo shot worse at .378 eFG% *on jump shots*. Kobe of course dwarfs them both at .467 eFG% on jump shots. Kobe is clearly a much better shooter than Lebron. Carmelo is not. On the break, Lebron is the best scorer in the league.


I said Carmelo was a better midrange shooter than Lebron. Obviously, Lebron has much longer range. In the second half of the season, Carmelo's midrange jumper was as good as anyone's in the league. Lebron's poor form causes him to be less consistent than Carmelo from that midrange. Overall, who is the better shooter? I'd say it's pretty close. Carmelo is better midrange and Lebron is better from long range. In international play, I'd rather have Carmelo's midrange consistency. 

I can't believe you think Lebron is the best scorer in the league. What happened to Kobe? I'd also say Lebron isn't that much better than Carmelo on the break, and I think statistics would prove that to be true. Obviously, a lot of that has to do with teammates anyway. Lebron is a very one-dimensional scorer - if his jumper isn't going, he's in trouble because players will sag off of him. Since Carmelo can go into the post, he's able to face people up and use his jab step. And you still didn't address the off-the-ball discrepancy, which is pretty blatant. Lebron offers nothing off the ball while Carmelo is an adept off-the-ball scorer. 



> Not to mention Lebron is a better passer, rebounder, defender, and he takes care of the ball better. He produced fewer turnovers per game than Melo, while being the primary ball-handler for his team. Carmelo is a finisher, and most of his turnovers come from ball-handling violations rather than missed passes.


How is Lebron a better defender? Since when did he defend, at all? Both suck, so let's call it a wash. I'll give you the ball-handling, although Carmelo is still a good passer. Rebounding? It seems close to me, except on the offensive end where Carmelo has the clear edge. 

Lebron is superior from the perimeter and from a playmaking standpoint. You won't get any arguments from me there. In fact, I'd say he's still the better player. But he isn't in Carmelo's league as a scorer, which is my primary argument. 



> Also interesting to note is that while everyone complains about how Lebron commits too many offensive fouls, Melo committed over 50% more offensive fouls than Bron did last year.


I certainly don't make that argument. Carmelo is a pretty poor ball-handler. Lebron is superior in this category. But Lebron needs to improve his situational awareness a whole lot. He's a smart player, but he makes awful decisions at times, especially when the jumper isn't falling. 



> Wow, and you had the _audacity _to point at Lebron's struggles in the finals. Talk about a double standard.


If Carmelo had a Gibson, Pavlovic, Ilgauskas, and/or Gooden to help him space the floor, he'd thrive. For one, Lebron commited way too many stupid turnovers that really hurt the team. There's really no excuse for that. Second of all, he did an awful job managing the flow of the offense. A lot of that has to do with his poor off-the-ball skills, which he desperately needs to improve. If he doesn't have the ball in his hands in the halfcourt, he's rather ineffective. On top of that, his jumper was downright ugly. 

I'm not sure you're aware of the Nugget's complete lack of shooting. Before Iverson came, teams would literally triple-team Carmelo in the playoffs. At least Lebron had someone to throw the ball to. Carmelo didn't before Iverson and J.R. came. 

Lebron is a great player, but he needs to diversify his scoring game in order to get to the next level. In terms of this, Carmelo has been ahead of Lebron for two seasons. 



> People don't like Carmelo for various reasons. He does turn into a black hole at times, shooting early and often. He's had some off court incidents. He comes off as arrogant sometimes, saying things like he was the best player in the '03 draft before they ever played a game, and that he should have won rookie of the year, etc. I'm not saying they are valid/invalid reasons, but there are definitely a lot of reasons that people might not like him.


This is petty. He isn't a black hole and his off court "incidents" haven't been newsworthy in my eyes. 



> But the idea that Lebron has been terrible in international play has been wayyyy exaggerated.
> 
> For example, he led the team in FG% at .582. Carmelo was at .504. This doesn't mean he's scored more efficiently because he was bad at the line (Melo wasn't much better) and he took fewer 3s than Melo, but he's been far from terrible. Taking all that into account, I'd estimate they were probably close in scoring efficiency overall.
> 
> But Lebron wasn't supposed to be a scorer on that team, it was clear to anyone watching. That's why he was 2nd to Chris Paul in APG for the Team USA, having over twice as many assists at Melo.


I never said Lebron was terrible in international play, but he really wasn't that impressive. I hope you aren't suggesting that he played better than Carmelo. 

I like him at the point because he's a good decision maker and can easily see over the defense. But at the end of the day, you gotta put the ball in the hoop and Carmelo excels at that. He really took some big shots for that team and carried them through some droughts. Lebron doesn't stand out to me as someone who can thrive in international play. Carmelo does because of his diversified scoring game. Both need to improve their defense. But having Carmelo out there to score with Kobe seems like a better option than Lebron's playmaking and athleticism, especially when you consider Lebron's lack of off-the-ball skills. Really, Kidd's great play has created a bit of a quandry. Is the staff going to sacrifice shooting to have him out there? If they do, I think it only makes sense to put the more consistent shooter, Carmelo, out there, unless the team is going to go small with Lebron/Wade at the three or Lebron/Carmelo at the four. The only big guy on the team that can really step out is Bosh and if last year showed anything, it's that the team needs shooters on the floor. 




> He also led Team USA in RPG.
> 
> He's not on the team to score. There are plenty of scorers on the team. A lot of people make the argument that there are too many scorers and not enough versatile players. That's why he's on the team. He didn't take nearly as many shots as Carmelo did in the WC last year, but that's because it wasn't his role on the team. Wade and Melo were the primary scorers on that team.


I'd argue that Carmelo took more shots than Lebron because the staff wanted it that way - because Carmelo is a superior scorer. I agree that it doesn't make sense to have four scorers out on the floor, but Lebron's other primary talent is playmaking. I doubt he'll supplant Kidd at the primary ball handler. The more I think about it, having Kobe on the team is going to cause some issues. When Wade gets healthy, who loses a spot in the lineup? Miller's play is going to demand more playing time as he progresses with the team, and Prince is a really nice role player. Redd could be the answer to bust zones. 

That said, maybe the team does want to play small. You'd think they would have done a better job at bringing in some big guys who could step out some. With Lebron, Carmelo, Battier, maybe they will go smaller. I just think you can't pass up on Carmelo's diverse scoring game and competitiveness. If Lebron won't be the primary ball-handler, I don't see his value to the starting lineup.


----------



## MLKG

-I think Carmelo is the ideal 6th man for a team like this. He can come into the game when Kobe and Lebron go to the bench and become the main guy - which he will always fight to be no matter who he is playing with. Play him at small forward and exploit the size mismatches. Just don't play him at the 4. Yes, he can score there, but why would you want to take away from the physical advantages he has at the 3? It puts a major strain on the defense. I don't know why we would ever want to put out a lineup that puts us at a size disadvantage. Carmelo should be used by Team USA in the same way that Corliss Williamson was used by Detroit and Sacramento in the early 2000's.

-You HAVE to take all 4 of the big guys. Do not underestimate the big men they will see in this tournament. The idea of the skinny, weak, international big that camps out and shoots 3's is a myth. These teams love to put 7 footers on the court and they all are fundamentally sound rebounders. It's very important to get defense and rebounding out of your 4 and 5 spots. Did anybody learn anything from Athens? Do you remember what happened when Tim Duncan would get in foul trouble? Lamar Odom and Carlos Boozer were forced to play center and, though they competed admirably, they got beat the hell up on the inside. You HAVE to take 2 legit centers. So even though Tyson Chandler kind of sucks, he has to be on the team.

- When did Kirk Hinrich get a reputation as a shooter? He's struggled most of his career with his jumpshot. He shot over 40% from 3 this year, but you have to look at that in context. With the drive and kick style the Bulls play, he only shoots when he's wide open. It's an admirable style of play, but shooting 40% on wide open jumpers doesn't necessarily make you a better shooter than someone who shoots 35% but creates everything himself and shoots on the move. Billups had one of the worst years of his career last year from the arc, but he's long been established as one of the best shooters in the league from the point guard spot. I don't see how Billups/Hinrich is even a debate. I know NBA ratings are down, but I figured at least the people here would have watched them. I don't think there was any question who the better player was.

- Kevin Durant is not going to make this team. He's 18. He plays the same position as Lebron and Carmelo. They aren't going to take him over Prince or Battier.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa

MLKG said:


> -I think Carmelo is the ideal 6th man for a team like this. He can come into the game when Kobe and Lebron go to the bench and become the main guy - which he will always fight to be no matter who he is playing with. Play him at small forward and exploit the size mismatches. Just don't play him at the 4. Yes, he can score there, but why would you want to take away from the physical advantages he has at the 3? It puts a major strain on the defense. I don't know why we would ever want to put out a lineup that puts us at a size disadvantage. Carmelo should be used by Team USA in the same way that Corliss Williamson was used by Detroit and Sacramento in the early 2000's.


Yeah, bring the guy who played the best for that team off the bench. On top of that, compare him to Corliss Williamson, who was a bench player for his entire career.


----------



## Brandname

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> I said Carmelo was a better midrange shooter than Lebron. Obviously, Lebron has much longer range. In the second half of the season, Carmelo's midrange jumper was as good as anyone's in the league. Lebron's poor form causes him to be less consistent than Carmelo from that midrange. Overall, who is the better shooter? I'd say it's pretty close. Carmelo is better midrange and Lebron is better from long range. In international play, I'd rather have Carmelo's midrange consistency.
> *
> I can't believe you think Lebron is the best scorer in the league.* What happened to Kobe? I'd also say Lebron isn't that much better than Carmelo on the break, and I think statistics would prove that to be true. Obviously, a lot of that has to do with teammates anyway. Lebron is a very one-dimensional scorer - if his jumper isn't going, he's in trouble because players will sag off of him. Since Carmelo can go into the post, he's able to face people up and use his jab step. And you still didn't address the off-the-ball discrepancy, which is pretty blatant. Lebron offers nothing off the ball while Carmelo is an adept off-the-ball scorer.


Umm... I didn't say that.

Lebron doesn't score off the ball because his team relies on him to do everything. He's never had an Andre Miller or Allen Iverson type of player who can create for him to actually play off the ball. 



> How is Lebron a better defender? Since when did he defend, at all? Both suck, so let's call it a wash. I'll give you the ball-handling, although Carmelo is still a good passer. Rebounding? It seems close to me, except on the offensive end where Carmelo has the clear edge.


You didn't pay attention to Lebron this year. He improved his defense tremendously, and he's actually a pretty good defender now.

Recently, 82games.com put out a defensive stat that is probably one of their most comprehensive efforts yet, taking into account many factors and statistics within the rating itself. 

Read more here:
http://www.82games.com/nichols1.htm

Anyhow, according to this rating system, Tim Duncan ranks as the best defender in the NBA while Tyronn Lue and Jeff McInnis rank as the worst (I'd say probably pretty accurate). And a quick glance at the ratings across all teams shows that there are some unusual numbers, but overall they seem to be quite accurate. 

Lebron ranks as a 93 (out of 100)
Melo ranks as a 19 (out of 100)

Of course it's not definitive, but it definitely backs up what I've seen on the court this past year. Lebron has progressed significantly on defense, while I haven't seen the same progression from Carmelo. I suspect it has a lot to do with the defensive excellence that Mike Brown demands vs. George Karl, but whatever the reason it appears that Lebron has improved defensively tremendously.



> Lebron is superior from the perimeter and from a playmaking standpoint. You won't get any arguments from me there. In fact, I'd say he's still the better player. But he isn't in Carmelo's league as a scorer, which is my primary argument.


And I don't think you have anything to back that up rather than "I think Melo is a better scorer". Even if Lebron is as "one-dimensional" as you say he is as a scorer, he still scored just as efficiently as Melo did this year. So if Melo's "multi-dimensionality" isn't translating to better scoring efficiency, does it even matter?

Evidently Lebron is able to get around these weaknesses that you perceive to score just as efficiently as Melo. 



> I certainly don't make that argument. Carmelo is a pretty poor ball-handler. Lebron is superior in this category. But Lebron needs to improve his situational awareness a whole lot. He's a smart player, but he makes awful decisions at times, especially when the jumper isn't falling.


I guess it's a matter of opinion who is the "smarter player", or who makes better decisions.

I often see Melo trying to shoot his way back into a game when his shot is off too, so who knows. I'm don't know if I think there's a significant difference here. 



> If Carmelo had a Gibson, Pavlovic, Ilgauskas, and/or Gooden to help him space the floor, he'd thrive. For one, Lebron commited way too many stupid turnovers that really hurt the team. There's really no excuse for that. Second of all, he did an awful job managing the flow of the offense. A lot of that has to do with his poor off-the-ball skills, which he desperately needs to improve. If he doesn't have the ball in his hands in the halfcourt, he's rather ineffective. On top of that, his jumper was downright ugly.


His jumper WAS ugly. And he played terrible in the finals. Just like Melo did before he got the kind of help he is going to need to take the next step. 

I'm surprised you think Z is better than Camby. Camby seems to have a pretty solid midrange shot, just like Z. Except he's a lot better defensively. Z and Gooden both got DESTROYED by Tim Duncan. It wasn't even close. That's the point. Lebron DIDN'T have them to throw the ball to. 

Pavlovic and Gibson were both bad in the finals against the Spurs. They just didn't look ready, and Gibson played poorly when inserted into the starting lineup.

It's disingenuous to act as if Lebron had the luxury of passing to them in the finals and couldn't get it done. They were playing really badly.



> I'm not sure you're aware of the Nugget's complete lack of shooting. Before Iverson came, teams would literally triple-team Carmelo in the playoffs. At least Lebron had someone to throw the ball to. Carmelo didn't before Iverson and J.R. came.


Denver's inability to shoot over the past few years is well-documented. So is Cleveland's. I'm not sure you're going to be able to get away with the assertion that Carmelo has received more defensive attention than Lebron.



> Lebron is a great player, but he needs to diversify his scoring game in order to get to the next level. In terms of this, Carmelo has been ahead of Lebron for two seasons.


Sure, he definitely has a lot of room for improvement. But it sounds like you think Melo is a level above Lebron here in scoring, when his actual production hasn't reflected that.



> This is petty. He isn't a black hole and his off court "incidents" haven't been newsworthy in my eyes.


I don't care much about the off-court stuff. I do think he looks for his own shot too often, though.



> I never said Lebron was terrible in international play, but he really wasn't that impressive. I hope you aren't suggesting that he played better than Carmelo.


I'm saying that it's not as cut-and-dry as people seem to think. They are used to Lebron scoring in bulk. But on this team, he was a distributor and rebounder primarily. So that fed the misconception that he played terrible. I don't think Melo played significantly better than Lebron did. 



> I like him at the point because he's a good decision maker and can easily see over the defense. But at the end of the day, you gotta put the ball in the hoop and Carmelo excels at that. He really took some big shots for that team and carried them through some droughts. Lebron doesn't stand out to me as someone who can thrive in international play. Carmelo does because of his diversified scoring game. Both need to improve their defense. But having Carmelo out there to score with Kobe seems like a better option than Lebron's playmaking and athleticism, especially when you consider Lebron's lack of off-the-ball skills. Really, Kidd's great play has created a bit of a quandry. Is the staff going to sacrifice shooting to have him out there? If they do, I think it only makes sense to put the more consistent shooter, Carmelo, out there, unless the team is going to go small with Lebron/Wade at the three or Lebron/Carmelo at the four. The only big guy on the team that can really step out is Bosh and if last year showed anything, it's that the team needs shooters on the floor.


What last year showed is that we need a scheme to defend the pick and roll. Really, that's what it all came down to. 

Besides, Lebron has thrived so far off the ball playing with Kidd. The problems that you perceive with his off-ball ability has more to do with the fact that *Cleveland hasn't had a decent point guard since Jeff McInnis.* That should tell you everything you need to know right there, because he's really not very good.





> I'd argue that Carmelo took more shots than Lebron because the staff wanted it that way - because Carmelo is a superior scorer. I agree that it doesn't make sense to have four scorers out on the floor, but Lebron's other primary talent is playmaking. I doubt he'll supplant Kidd at the primary ball handler. The more I think about it, having Kobe on the team is going to cause some issues. When Wade gets healthy, who loses a spot in the lineup? Miller's play is going to demand more playing time as he progresses with the team, and Prince is a really nice role player. Redd could be the answer to bust zones.


Of course they wanted it that way. That was my point. 

But just as easily as you can say it is because Melo is a better scorer, I can say it's because the staff knows he isn't good at anything else. Of course, that could be wrong too because we have no idea why they wanted it that way.



> That said, maybe the team does want to play small. You'd think they would have done a better job at bringing in some big guys who could step out some. With Lebron, Carmelo, Battier, maybe they will go smaller. I just think you can't pass up on Carmelo's diverse scoring game and competitiveness. If Lebron won't be the primary ball-handler, I don't see his value to the starting lineup.


I'm in no way arguing against Melo starting. I completely understand his value to this team. He's been very good in international competition. I'm trying to refute the argument that Lebron is no good in international competition and isn't fit to start.

But with Melo's post skills, I don't see why he and Lebron can't both start. Team USA always forces a lot of turnovers and gets on the break a lot, and Melo and Lebron are very dangerous together on the break. Especially with Kidd and Kobe out there. You could start Lebron/Melo at 3/4 or vice versa (probably Melo at the 4 because he's great in the post). 

Going smaller like that will ensure our dominance in creating turnovers (Kidd, Melo, Kobe, and Lebron are all very good at this) and getting on the run. I don't fear Carmelo getting outmuscled down low against the international teams as much, so I think he would be fine defensively, and it might help him to guard slower players rather than out on the perimeter. 

I really don't see why a starting lineup like:

Kidd
Kobe
Bron
Melo
Dwight

couldn't work. Lot's of athleticism to do what USA does best, which is get out on the break. And I don't see that as a team that is weak defensively either. 

As far as Wade, he would be a great option off the bench because he's a starting talent that could score and create as well as anyone.


----------



## Brandname

Good lord, these point-by-point refutation posts are getting way too long. 

I'll just summarize my whole post by saying I think Lebron plays a valuable role to this team, and I don't think it's a mistake to have him in the starting lineup, no matter which role they have him play.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa

> Umm... I didn't say that.



That was my bad. 



> Lebron doesn't score off the ball because his team relies on him to do everything. He's never had an Andre Miller or Allen Iverson type of player who can create for him to actually play off the ball.


Does his lack of a playmaker beside him justify the way he stands around the perimeter when he doesn't have the ball in his hands? He doesn't post up enough, doesn't cut enough, and is generally horrible off the ball. His team does rely on him to do everything, but he simply doesn't work off the ball. That's a huge part to scoring and something Carmelo does very well. 



> You didn't pay attention to Lebron this year. He improved his defense tremendously, and he's actually a pretty good defender now.
> 
> Recently, 82games.com put out a defensive stat that is probably one of their most comprehensive efforts yet, taking into account many factors and statistics within the rating itself.
> 
> Read more here:
> http://www.82games.com/nichols1.htm
> 
> Anyhow, according to this rating system, Tim Duncan ranks as the best defender in the NBA while Tyronn Lue and Jeff McInnis rank as the worst (I'd say probably pretty accurate). And a quick glance at the ratings across all teams shows that there are some unusual numbers, but overall they seem to be quite accurate.
> 
> Lebron ranks as a 93 (out of 100)
> Melo ranks as a 19 (out of 100)
> 
> Of course it's not definitive, but it definitely backs up what I've seen on the court this past year. Lebron has progressed significantly on defense, while I haven't seen the same progression from Carmelo. I suspect it has a lot to do with the defensive excellence that Mike Brown demands vs. George Karl, but whatever the reason it appears that Lebron has improved defensively tremendously.


Lebron hasn't improved that much. Just like Carmelo, he doesn't work on that end, despite his physical gifts. Wade is really the only guy out of the three that tries to play some defense. 

And I'm not going to bother looking at the stat. I can tell he sucks on defense with my own two eyes. 



> And I don't think you have anything to back that up rather than "I think Melo is a better scorer". Even if Lebron is as "one-dimensional" as you say he is as a scorer, he still scored just as efficiently as Melo did this year. So if Melo's "multi-dimensionality" isn't translating to better scoring efficiency, does it even matter?
> 
> Evidently Lebron is able to get around these weaknesses that you perceive to score just as efficiently as Melo.


I guess you didn't read my post. 

1) Carmelo is better off the ball. Are you arguing that? 

2) Carmelo is the better midrange shooter. 

3) Caremlo is infinitely better in the post. 

4) Lebron didn't score "just as efficiently" as Carmelo last season if we're talking about the NBA. They had the same shooting percentage even though Carmelo shot about 1.5 times more. 

5) Let's not forget about free throws. 




> His jumper WAS ugly. And he played terrible in the finals. Just like Melo did before he got the kind of help he is going to need to take the next step.


At least Lebron had people to throw the ball to. Carmelo literally had three people running at him as soon as the ball moved in his direction in his first three playoff appearances. Lebron at least had some space to work in at times. 




> I'm surprised you think Z is better than Camby. Camby seems to have a pretty solid midrange shot, just like Z. Except he's a lot better defensively. Z and Gooden both got DESTROYED by Tim Duncan. It wasn't even close. That's the point. Lebron DIDN'T have them to throw the ball to.
> 
> Pavlovic and Gibson were both bad in the finals against the Spurs. They just didn't look ready, and Gibson played poorly when inserted into the starting lineup.
> 
> It's disingenuous to act as if Lebron had the luxury of passing to them in the finals and couldn't get it done. They were playing really badly.


Of course Camby is better defensively, but we aren't talking about the defensive end. As for Camby's offense, he is absolutely horrendous. Nuggets fans know exactly what I'm talking about. Z is more consistent at everything on the offensive end. Most importantly, he gives Carmelo a consistent option downlow. With the way Karl plays Carmelo, he rarely is the one to throw an entry pass or even benefit from the attention Nene draws downlow. 

Teams still have to respect the guys Cleveland has even if they aren't making shots. Denver opponents don't give a damn about anyone else but Iverson when it comes to making shots. 

Lebron definitely needs a different cast around him, but he's had better complimentary pieces around him than Carmelo, and that isn't saying much. Players need space to work and Lebron has had more space to work than Carmelo. 



> Denver's inability to shoot over the past few years is well-documented. So is Cleveland's. I'm not sure you're going to be able to get away with the assertion that Carmelo has received more defensive attention than Lebron.


Yes, Carmelo has received more defensive attention than Lebron because he was the only legitimate scoring option until Iverson came. 



> I'm saying that it's not as cut-and-dry as people seem to think. They are used to Lebron scoring in bulk. But on this team, he was a distributor and rebounder primarily. So that fed the misconception that he played terrible. I don't think Melo played significantly better than Lebron did.


I wasn't impressed with Lebron period. His skill set doesn't seem to fit the international game all that well. As a primary ball-handler, he's nice. Off the ball, there are better options to put out there. 



> What last year showed is that we need a scheme to defend the pick and roll. Really, that's what it all came down to.


That was a main issue, but the staff also did a poor job of getting the right mix of players out there. I still don't understand why they won't add a big that can really step out and shoot, unless they are planning on going small. 



> Besides, Lebron has thrived so far off the ball playing with Kidd. The problems that you perceive with his off-ball ability has more to do with the fact that *Cleveland hasn't had a decent point guard since Jeff McInnis.* That should tell you everything you need to know right there, because he's really not very good.


Anyone and everyone thrives with Kidd, who basically spoonfed Lebron the whole game. And it was more on the break, not off the ball. 

I actually thought McInnis was decent for Cleveland. He wasn't great, but he provided something. However, in order for Lebron to benefit from a good point guard, he'll need to get more motivated off the ball. He literally stands around and waits for things to happen. 



> But just as easily as you can say it is because Melo is a better scorer, I can say it's because the staff knows he isn't good at anything else. Of course, that could be wrong too because we have no idea why they wanted it that way.


You can be naive if you want. I'll plainly state that they had Carmelo out there because he earned the spot and he was the best scorer on the team. Why would the staff put him out there because he is one-dimensional? He didn't have to start. He can pass and rebound in addition to carrying the scoring load. 



> I'm in no way arguing against Melo starting. I completely understand his value to this team. He's been very good in international competition. I'm trying to refute the argument that Lebron is no good in international competition and isn't fit to start.


My main argument was that Lebron didn't deserve to start over Carmelo, especially after their performances for Team USA last season. Carmelo was the best on the squad, yet people have him coming off the bench now? Doesn't make sense. 



> But with Melo's post skills, I don't see why he and Lebron can't both start. Team USA always forces a lot of turnovers and gets on the break a lot, and Melo and Lebron are very dangerous together on the break. Especially with Kidd and Kobe out there. You could start Lebron/Melo at 3/4 or vice versa (probably Melo at the 4 because he's great in the post).
> 
> Going smaller like that will ensure our dominance in creating turnovers (Kidd, Melo, Kobe, and Lebron are all very good at this) and getting on the run. I don't fear Carmelo getting outmuscled down low against the international teams as much, so I think he would be fine defensively, and it might help him to guard slower players rather than out on the perimeter.
> 
> I really don't see why a starting lineup like:
> 
> Kidd
> Kobe
> Bron
> Melo
> Dwight
> 
> couldn't work. Lot's of athleticism to do what USA does best, which is get out on the break. And I don't see that as a team that is weak defensively either.
> 
> As far as Wade, he would be a great option off the bench because he's a starting talent that could score and create as well as anyone.


I don't know if I like the idea of them going small. They could still put a better shooter out there than Lebron, and who knows if Carmelo will commit to defense inside. Last year revealed two weaknesses to me: poor perimeter defense and not enough shooting. If they do go small, I'd rather have Battier out there to add some shooting. Defenses may just sag off Kidd and make him beat them. 

Those points are null and void if the team decides to play defense, which would mean being out on the break where no team in the world could stop them. But I'm not confident that will happen. My ideal starting lineup is: 

Williams
Kobe
Carmelo
Chandler
Howard

I know a lot of people will think I'm crazy for putting Chandler in there, but he doesn't need touches on the offensive end. He'd give teams more trouble on the pick and roll with his length and provide more shot blocking. Carmelo could make up for his deficient post scoring.


----------



## HB

Power_Ballin said:


> Wow, talk about ignorant. 'Melo was our best scorer on the team last year when we played against actual FIBA competition. Adding Kobe won't hurt that, but i personally would rather have Melo then LeBron in crunch time. Plus, tough draw w/ SanAN in the first round, as opposed to who.....Washington....w/o gilbert and caron....? PLEASE! At least 'Melo won a game against the champs and put up a decent fight as opposed to you know who(LeBron got swept brah, pretty badly). Comparing the West to East is like apples to oranges.....It just don’t add up.


Is Melo a better scorer than Kobe, absolutely NO. Bron has already shown he is willing to get his points off the break. That leaves Melo out, last I checked he doesnt play off the ball that much (*Note I didnt say he cant do that). So if you have him on a team with Kobe and Bron, what exactly is his role. Like I said, poor passer, not exactly a great rebounder and his defense isnt exactly anything to write home about. He isnt a better shooter than Miller or Redd, Tayshaun is one heck of a defender. I'd rather take any of those guys who will play off the ball much better than him and wont take away shots from guys like Kobe. And why keep bringing up his past scoring feats with team USA when we all know the team disappointed at the end of the day. Isnt the point of this 17 man squad to find a team that can compete in the long run.


----------



## Brandname

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Lebron hasn't improved that much. Just like Carmelo, he doesn't work on that end, despite his physical gifts. Wade is really the only guy out of the three that tries to play some defense.
> 
> And I'm not going to bother looking at the stat. I can tell he sucks on defense with my own two eyes.


I really just have to question how much you watched him this year. All year, Cavs fans raved about how much he's committed to the defensive end. He's not a stopper, but he's definitely a good defender at this point. His offense suffered this year, but his defense improved tremendously. 

I seriously think you just might not have watched him that much last year.



> I guess you didn't read my post.
> 
> 1) Carmelo is better off the ball. Are you arguing that?
> 
> 2) Carmelo is the better midrange shooter.
> 
> 3) Caremlo is infinitely better in the post.
> 
> 4) Lebron didn't score "just as efficiently" as Carmelo last season if we're talking about the NBA. They had the same shooting percentage even though Carmelo shot about 1.5 times more.
> 
> 5) Let's not forget about free throws.


Carmelo is better off the ball. But one of our biggest complaints this past year as Cavs fans is that Larry Hughes "froze" Lebron out of the offense at times, looking for his own shot instead. And this is when he played point guard for us.

Lebron did score "just as efficiently" as Melo did, in fact:

Melo: .552 TS%
Lebron: .552 TS%




> At least Lebron had people to throw the ball to. Carmelo literally had three people running at him as soon as the ball moved in his direction in his first three playoff appearances. Lebron at least had some space to work in at times.


The biggest knock against the Cavs has always been that they haven't put very good players around Lebron. Using the teammates argument in favor of Melo just doesn't work.



> Of course Camby is better defensively, but we aren't talking about the defensive end. As for Camby's offense, he is absolutely horrendous. Nuggets fans know exactly what I'm talking about. Z is more consistent at everything on the offensive end. Most importantly, he gives Carmelo a consistent option downlow. With the way Karl plays Carmelo, he rarely is the one to throw an entry pass or even benefit from the attention Nene draws downlow.
> 
> Teams still have to respect the guys Cleveland has even if they aren't making shots. Denver opponents don't give a damn about anyone else but Iverson when it comes to making shots.
> 
> Lebron definitely needs a different cast around him, but he's had better complimentary pieces around him than Carmelo, and that isn't saying much. *Players need space to work and Lebron has had more space to work than Carmelo.
> 
> Yes, Carmelo has received more defensive attention than Lebron because he was the only legitimate scoring option until Iverson came. *


You do know who Eric Snow is, right? Our starting point guard for the last two seasons? Denver has never had a worse shooter than Snow on the perimeter. And Snow's defender ALWAYS doubles on Lebron. That's why it's been so easy to stop the Cavs' offense.



> I wasn't impressed with Lebron period. His skill set doesn't seem to fit the international game all that well. As a primary ball-handler, he's nice. Off the ball, there are better options to put out there.


Whether you were impressed or not, he still produced for the team. And that's what we need, production. We need guys who are willing to do everything, as well as scorers. Melo is great as a scorer, so he's valuable. Last year, Lebron showed that he's willing to take a back seat in scoring to rebound and distribute. We need that, too. He also provided significant scoring.



> You can be naive if you want. I'll plainly state that they had Carmelo out there because he earned the spot and he was the best scorer on the team. Why would the staff put him out there because he is one-dimensional? He didn't have to start. He can pass and rebound in addition to carrying the scoring load.


I didn't say I thought he was one dimensional. My point was that you can't say they made Melo the first scoring option because he's better than Lebron necessarily. Maybe they did it because of Lebron's versatility?



> My main argument was that Lebron didn't deserve to start over Carmelo, especially after their performances for Team USA last season. Carmelo was the best on the squad, yet people have him coming off the bench now? Doesn't make sense.


It's all about building a team that works well. Kobe does everything Melo does, but a little better.


----------



## HB

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Lebron isn't on Carmelo's level as a scorer for a lot of reasons. He's a poor midrange shooter, doesn't go in the post often, and doesn't have Carmelo's "knack" for scoring in diverse ways. Carmelo is a great passer, except to those who haven't seen him play a whole lot, and he is a better offensive rebounder than Lebron.
> 
> As far as Carmelo's lack of success in the playoffs, that is no fault of his own. Did you watch the Spurs series? He was on fire, doing whatever it took to get the win. They lost that series because Iverson couldn't hit easy shots. It's that simple. In the past playoff series', Carmelo didn't have a player like Iverson to keep the defense from caving in on him. He showed what he can do with space to work.
> 
> People just love to hate Carmelo because he isn't a media darling like Wade or Lebron and isn't very flashy. Still, he's the second best scorer in the NBA with passing and rebounding skills. Lebron hasn't shown much at all in international play because it is more difficult for him to run the court and the defense forces the ball out of his hands. He's awful off the ball, unlike Carmelo. What has he done to warrant starting over Carmelo?


Bron will get his points off the break. So Melo is a great passer, its just to the majority of people outside Denver he rarely exhibits this passing skills. RIGHT! 

The Merits of having a Bron over a Melo on that team is the fact that Bron does everything else much better than Melo. He boards better, he passes much better and he runs the break. His game is tailor made to play with Kidd.

So you excuse Melo's playoff disasters but yet you knock Bron's final appearance. GOTCHA!


----------



## MLKG

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Yeah, bring the guy who played the best for that team off the bench. On top of that, compare him to Corliss Williamson, who was a bench player for his entire career.


I didn't compare him to Corliss, I said he is ideal to play that kind of role. He can come off the bench and immediately exploit mismatches and focus entirely on scoring. 

If he's playing a crucial role, why does it matter if he starts the game on the bench? If he is a better fit in that role, and the team is better for him filling that role, then what is the problem? The goal is to win. Not to be the best player. Did they win last year? I think bringing Carmelo off the bench would maximize the effectiveness of both him and Kobe.


----------



## Brandname

MLKG said:


> I didn't compare him to Corliss, I said he is ideal to play that kind of role. He can come off the bench and immediately exploit mismatches and focus entirely on scoring.
> 
> If he's playing a crucial role, why does it matter if he starts the game on the bench? If he is a better fit in that role, and the team is better for him filling that role, then what is the problem? The goal is to win. Not to be the best player. Did they win last year? *I think bringing Carmelo off the bench would maximize the effectiveness of both him and Kobe.*


I think that's exactly what I'm trying to say. It isn't necessarily an insult to bring him off the bench. It's all about complimentary skillsets. 

With Kobe starting and Melo being the main man off the bench, we have a primary scoring mentality on both the first and second team.


----------



## 22ryno

Jason Kidd/Deron Williams
Kobe Bryant/Kirk Hinrich
LeBron James/Mike Miller/Kevin Durant
Carmelo Anthony/Chris Bosh
Dwight Howard/Amare Stoudemire

The last spot would go to Redd or Chandler. I'm leaning toward Chandler for his defense but he is useless on offense especially against zones. Hopefully he rebounds well. The need for a shooter is overated especially with Kobe on the team. Depending on the game, he can be zone buster and top perimeter defender or both at times. Miller and Deron Williams also bring better shooting as well. That gives you 4 good shooters(Kobe, Miller, Melo, and Williams) who can also bring other things to the table unlike Redd. I picked Durant because I think developing him in international play is more important than keeping Battier or Prince. He is the future of USA basketball


----------



## BG7

MLKG said:


> -I think Carmelo is the ideal 6th man for a team like this. He can come into the game when Kobe and Lebron go to the bench and become the main guy - which he will always fight to be no matter who he is playing with. Play him at small forward and exploit the size mismatches. Just don't play him at the 4. Yes, he can score there, but why would you want to take away from the physical advantages he has at the 3? It puts a major strain on the defense. I don't know why we would ever want to put out a lineup that puts us at a size disadvantage. Carmelo should be used by Team USA in the same way that Corliss Williamson was used by Detroit and Sacramento in the early 2000's.
> 
> -You HAVE to take all 4 of the big guys. Do not underestimate the big men they will see in this tournament. The idea of the skinny, weak, international big that camps out and shoots 3's is a myth. These teams love to put 7 footers on the court and they all are fundamentally sound rebounders. It's very important to get defense and rebounding out of your 4 and 5 spots. Did anybody learn anything from Athens? Do you remember what happened when Tim Duncan would get in foul trouble? Lamar Odom and Carlos Boozer were forced to play center and, though they competed admirably, they got beat the hell up on the inside. You HAVE to take 2 legit centers. So even though Tyson Chandler kind of sucks, he has to be on the team.
> 
> - When did Kirk Hinrich get a reputation as a shooter? He's struggled most of his career with his jumpshot. He shot over 40% from 3 this year, but you have to look at that in context. With the drive and kick style the Bulls play, he only shoots when he's wide open. It's an admirable style of play, but shooting 40% on wide open jumpers doesn't necessarily make you a better shooter than someone who shoots 35% but creates everything himself and shoots on the move. Billups had one of the worst years of his career last year from the arc, but he's long been established as one of the best shooters in the league from the point guard spot. I don't see how Billups/Hinrich is even a debate. I know NBA ratings are down, but I figured at least the people here would have watched them. I don't think there was any question who the better player was.
> 
> - Kevin Durant is not going to make this team. He's 18. He plays the same position as Lebron and Carmelo. They aren't going to take him over Prince or Battier.


You just put another reason why Hinrich should be on the team over Billups. Hinrich is a better penetrator than Billups, the Bulls offense with the drive and kick is based on Kirk and Ben penetrating the defense, the defense collapsing and hitting the open man. When your surrounding them with shooters like Redd, Kobe, Miller, Durant, Battier, your going to want a guy who is used to a drive and dish offense. In addition, when Kobe and Lebron are penetrating, Kirk is a better option to take that shot out of their pass than Billups.

I don't know why your so uncomfortable with Hinrich being a better jumpshooter than Billups. The 3PT% and FG% say so. The eFG% on jumpshots from 82games.com says so. 

Its not like Hinrich is just the beneficiary of the Bulls offense. He shot 43 3pt% over his college career. His highest year was 50% from three in college, and the college three is closer to the international three.

Hinrich is clearly a better shooter than Billups, and I'm not sure how thats even debateable. Hinrich is also the better defender of the two.


----------



## Brandname

Mebarak said:


> You just put another reason why Hinrich should be on the team over Billups. Hinrich is a better penetrator than Billups, the Bulls offense with the drive and kick is based on Kirk and Ben penetrating the defense, the defense collapsing and hitting the open man. When your surrounding them with shooters like Redd, Kobe, Miller, Durant, Battier, your going to want a guy who is used to a drive and dish offense. In addition, when Kobe and Lebron are penetrating, Kirk is a better option to take that shot out of their pass than Billups.
> 
> I don't know why your so uncomfortable with Hinrich being a better jumpshooter than Billups. The 3PT% and FG% say so. The eFG% on jumpshots from 82games.com says so.
> 
> Its not like Hinrich is just the beneficiary of the Bulls offense. He shot 43 3pt% over his college career. His highest year was 50% from three in college, and the college three is closer to the international three.
> 
> Hinrich is clearly a better shooter than Billups, and I'm not sure how thats even debateable. Hinrich is also the better defender of the two.


I could have sworn you spent an entire year complaining about how much Hinrich sucks.


----------



## Astral

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> What was the point of you making those comments, then, since you responded to my comment about him being in the starting lineup? Did you watch the playoffs last season? Carmelo was incredible. He had nothing to do with Denver losing. Same thing with when he was with Team USA, who, by the way, got third. They didn't lose and it is revisionist for people to continue to suggest that.


 I don't have Melo on my team (unfortunately wishful thinking). Why would I respond to you about him starting?




> Carmelo can't create for his teammates? Great, yet another basketball "fan" that feels qualified to make comments about players that you rarely watch. Carmelo is a great passer, actually, and he makes plays for his teammates in Denver on a consistent basis. You don't know what you're talking about. This wouldn't be the first time, of course.


Eyeroll. Yeah, you REALLY proved me wrong. There are 3 other people telling you he didn't pass in the scrimmage. Your best argument is an insult? 






> Aside from the fact that he's closer to 6'7, 6'8, his defense isn't good because he doesn't exert an effort. He's capable of playing good defense. And since when couldn't he board? He's not a good shooter? You're just trying to make a name on this board by showing out. You don't have a clue.


 *LOL. NICE excuse. He doesn't exert effort on defense! OH POOR BABY! *
He couldn't board since he averages 5.9 rebounds per game from the Small Forward position. That is by FAR the lowest RPG among the star SFs. 
No, he's not a good shooter. His FG% is 45.5%. His three point shooting is awful.



> You said he not a good shooter, cant board, cant pass, and cant play D. Those were his MAJOR FLAWS, which are in pretty much all of the key categories which players are evaluated on. Tell me then, what would say he is good at......?


 I said what he's good at it.
Not my fault you don't know the difference between shooters and scorers.


----------



## BG7

He is actually only 6'6" w/o shoes due to his predraft measurements fwiw.


----------



## Astral

Mebarak said:


> He is actually only 6'6" w/o shoes due to his predraft measurements fwiw.


Didn't know that.
I found some pictures just to see:
Here's one









Also this site says he was 6'6 1/2 coming out of college. 

I'm also pretty sure that at 19/20 I didn't stop growing, even though it was slowly. I would seriously doubt he's not a legitimate 6'8" today. :biggrin:


----------



## MLKG

Mebarak said:


> You just put another reason why Hinrich should be on the team over Billups. Hinrich is a better penetrator than Billups, the Bulls offense with the drive and kick is based on Kirk and Ben penetrating the defense, the defense collapsing and hitting the open man. When your surrounding them with shooters like Redd, Kobe, Miller, Durant, Battier, your going to want a guy who is used to a drive and dish offense. In addition, when Kobe and Lebron are penetrating, Kirk is a better option to take that shot out of their pass than Billups.


I think a drive and kick offense is about the worst idea possible for this team. If it turns into a 3 point shooting contest we are going to lose. Dunks and layups. That's what we're looking for. That's how you win basketball games.



> I don't know why your so uncomfortable with Hinrich being a better jumpshooter than Billups. The 3PT% and FG% say so. The eFG% on jumpshots from 82games.com says so.
> 
> Its not like Hinrich is just the beneficiary of the Bulls offense. He shot 43 3pt% over his college career. His highest year was 50% from three in college, and the college three is closer to the international three.
> 
> Hinrich is clearly a better shooter than Billups, and I'm not sure how thats even debateable. Hinrich is also the better defender of the two.


I wrote up a statistical based response but I'm not even going to post it. Nobody cares about college numbers. Hinrich shoots more uncontested shots. If you want to talk about 82games.com, go look at the percentage of jump shots each player is assisted on.

I'm not going to talk about this anymore though. If somebody else wants to pick up the argument for Hinrich in Sloth's place I'll talk about it, but I'm not going to waste my time with him.


----------



## Smez86

I understand the basis behind the argument that creating the shot lowers the percentage, but it's not as applicable in this situation. Watching a majority of the Bulls games, Ben Gordon probably gets assisted on just as many jumpers as Hinrich, but in terms of hitting an open jumper (which would be the situation you are arguing for), I'd take Gordon over Billups any day.

My only point is stats like those obviously don't tell the story. Billups has long been considered a superstar for some reason, but for Team USA, I think Hinrich is a better fit because he is USED to being passed to for those open jumpers in said situations. That's his gravy.

Don't get me wrong, Billups is better than Hinrich, but he's fading. His defense especially.


----------



## Unique

That Kobe guy sucks.


----------



## Blue

..


----------



## HB

So exactly what does having Kobe, Bron and Melo starting together accomplish


----------



## Astral

Power_Ballin said:


> After some reconsideration, my roster would look more like this:
> 
> Howard/Amare
> Chandler/Bosh
> Melo/Bron/Battier
> Kobe/Miller/Prince
> Kidd/Deron


 Rofl. Chandler and Howard starting? 

In case you didn't notice from the other 30 posts in this thread, everyone is putting a mobile big man (some even try LeBron) at the 4 because International big men can shoot the 3. I'd love to see Chandler chase someone around the perimeter. :lol:


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa

Brandname said:


> I really just have to question how much you watched him this year. All year, Cavs fans raved about how much he's committed to the defensive end. He's not a stopper, but he's definitely a good defender at this point. His offense suffered this year, but his defense improved tremendously.
> 
> I seriously think you just might not have watched him that much last year.
> 
> 
> 
> Carmelo is better off the ball. But one of our biggest complaints this past year as Cavs fans is that Larry Hughes "froze" Lebron out of the offense at times, looking for his own shot instead. And this is when he played point guard for us.
> 
> Lebron did score "just as efficiently" as Melo did, in fact:
> 
> Melo: .552 TS%
> Lebron: .552 TS%
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The biggest knock against the Cavs has always been that they haven't put very good players around Lebron. Using the teammates argument in favor of Melo just doesn't work.
> 
> 
> 
> You do know who Eric Snow is, right? Our starting point guard for the last two seasons? Denver has never had a worse shooter than Snow on the perimeter. And Snow's defender ALWAYS doubles on Lebron. That's why it's been so easy to stop the Cavs' offense.
> 
> 
> 
> Whether you were impressed or not, he still produced for the team. And that's what we need, production. We need guys who are willing to do everything, as well as scorers. Melo is great as a scorer, so he's valuable. Last year, Lebron showed that he's willing to take a back seat in scoring to rebound and distribute. We need that, too. He also provided significant scoring.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say I thought he was one dimensional. My point was that you can't say they made Melo the first scoring option because he's better than Lebron necessarily. Maybe they did it because of Lebron's versatility?
> 
> 
> 
> It's all about building a team that works well. Kobe does everything Melo does, but a little better.


I think we've both made our points. You think Lebron is a more versatile player that fits in that lineup a little better. I think Carmelo's great scoring game is irreplaceable. I just hate to see Carmelo continue to get the short end of the stick in situations where he's proven himself superior. The guy can't win in the eyes of the fans.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa

HB said:


> Bron will get his points off the break. So Melo is a great passer, its just to the majority of people outside Denver he rarely exhibits this passing skills. RIGHT!
> 
> The Merits of having a Bron over a Melo on that team is the fact that Bron does everything else much better than Melo. He boards better, he passes much better and he runs the break. His game is tailor made to play with Kidd.
> 
> So you excuse Melo's playoff disasters but yet you knock Bron's final appearance. GOTCHA!


Can you tell me what exactly you're basing your opinion of Carmelo's passing on? 

Carmelo's playoff disasters are understandable because he was triple teamed.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa

MLKG said:


> I didn't compare him to Corliss, I said he is ideal to play that kind of role. He can come off the bench and immediately exploit mismatches and focus entirely on scoring.
> 
> If he's playing a crucial role, why does it matter if he starts the game on the bench? If he is a better fit in that role, and the team is better for him filling that role, then what is the problem? The goal is to win. Not to be the best player. Did they win last year? I think bringing Carmelo off the bench would maximize the effectiveness of both him and Kobe.


You did compare Carmelo to Corliss, which was absurd. At least pick someone who was a real scorer off the bench, like Vinnie Johnson. 

He needs to start because he was the best player on the team last season. Do people not realize this? Oh, that's right, it's Carmelo's fault that they didn't get the gold medal. My bad.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa

Astral said:


> I don't have Melo on my team (unfortunately wishful thinking). Why would I respond to you about him starting?
> 
> 
> Eyeroll. Yeah, you REALLY proved me wrong. There are 3 other people telling you he didn't pass in the scrimmage. Your best argument is an insult?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *LOL. NICE excuse. He doesn't exert effort on defense! OH POOR BABY! *
> He couldn't board since he averages 5.9 rebounds per game from the Small Forward position. That is by FAR the lowest RPG among the star SFs.
> No, he's not a good shooter. His FG% is 45.5%. His three point shooting is awful.
> 
> I said what he's good at it.
> Not my fault you don't know the difference between shooters and scorers.



Intentional misquote = no more responses


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa

HB said:


> So exactly what does having Kobe, Bron and Melo starting together accomplish


Nothing, which is why I suggest replacing Lebron with someone else.


----------



## BG7

Tyson Chandler is actually the prototypical international center, with the addition of athleticism. Defense and rebounds. Chandler makes perfect sense for the team, and starting him might also make sense.


----------



## L

Melo coming off the bench would be perfect. We got the better half court scorer in kobe starting, and lebron isn't that far behind Melo scoring wise. Not only that, he does everything else better than Melo and seems to work with Kidd's game a bit better.


----------



## Astral

Mebarak said:


> Tyson Chandler is actually the prototypical international center, with the addition of athleticism. Defense and rebounds. Chandler makes perfect sense for the team, and starting him might also make sense.


I have no problem with Chandler starting. I have a problem with Chandler starting *with *Howard. They're identical players - big, strong, defensive shot blockers. 

None of which helps against PFs who shoot the 3 well.


----------



## futuristxen

Why can't Melo come off the bench? Since he's such a great scorer, wouldn't we need him coming off the bench to pick up where Kobe left off? Having Lebron and Kidd in the starting lineup, makes the lineup the best at getting Kobe open looks. He should score a ton.


----------



## Babe Ruth

My starters: 
PG - Kidd 
SG - Kobe 
SF - Melo 
PF - Bosh 
C - Amare 

Bench: 
Deron 
Boozer 
Bron 
Billups 
Redd 
Brand
Dwight


----------



## Astral

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Intentional misquote = no more responses


Where's the misquote?

Here's what you said:


> his defense isn't good because he doesn't exert an effort. He's capable of playing good defense.


It's an excuse. He's getting paid millions of dollars, and he doesn't play D because he doesn't feel like it? That's even worse than him sucking on D. 

I highlighted what you said and pressed the quotes button. If you can't prove the post wrong that's a totally different issue.


----------



## rainman

Mebarak said:


> Tyson Chandler is actually the prototypical international center, with the addition of athleticism. Defense and rebounds. Chandler makes perfect sense for the team, and starting him might also make sense.


Most international centers can hit an open 15 fter, can Chandler?


----------



## TM

no, and there's no way you'd want Howard and Chandler on the court at the same time - for that exact reason.


----------



## futuristxen

Lebron has turned himself into a very good defender. He is probably the closest thing to a defensive stopper on the Cavs team(which got to the NBA finals out east entirely due to Lebron and their defense).


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

futuristxen said:


> Lebron has turned himself into a very good defender. He is probably the closest thing to a defensive stopper on the Cavs team(which got to the NBA finals out east entirely due to Lebron and their defense).


They got to the finals because they got a cake walk through the 1st 2 rounds and then beat a Pistons team that was a shell of its former self but thats fore another topic.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

CubanLaker said:


> They got to the finals because they got a cake walk through the 1st 2 rounds and then beat a Pistons team that was a shell of its former self but thats fore another topic.


Interesting. So the Pistons were a shell of themselves against the Bulls also? Or only against the Cavs?

Looking at the actual talent on the Cavs (or lack thereof) relative to the other teams in the East, we don't exactly have major advantages outside of LBJ. Chicago and Detroit for example have much deeper rosters. If anything the Cavs overachieved..not to mention everyone has an equal shot to establish seeding. Give credit where it's due.


----------



## BG7

Bulls have a deeper roster this year, but they had zero depth last year. Outside of Ben, Kirk, and Luol are he only guys you could count on every night. All the bigs sucked except Tyrus and Wallace. Tyrus was inconsistent, definitely a game changer when on though. Big Ben was garbage half the time. Then Nocioni was injured, Thabo would play good in 1 game, then have 10 bad games...Duhon was in a drunken stupor. 

Bulls just had a complete meltdown against the Pistons in those first 3 games. Dreadful.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Mebarak said:


> Bulls have a deeper roster this year, but they had zero depth last year. Outside of Ben, Kirk, and Luol are he only guys you could count on every night. All the bigs sucked except Tyrus and Wallace. Tyrus was inconsistent, definitely a game changer when on though. Big Ben was garbage half the time. Then Nocioni was injured, Thabo would play good in 1 game, then have 10 bad games...Duhon was in a drunken stupor.
> 
> Bulls just had a complete meltdown against the Pistons in those first 3 games. Dreadful.


You may well be the only poster in the General Forum that thinks the Bulls have a chance to compete for the championship...

Think about it...

The ONLY ONE.


----------



## rainman

PauloCatarino said:


> You may well be the only poster in the General Forum that thinks the Bulls have a chance to compete for the championship...
> 
> Think about it...
> 
> The ONLY ONE.



Make it two, slight chance but i think they easily could get to the finals and then anything can happen.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa

Astral said:


> Where's the misquote?


I never said this: 



> You said he not a good shooter, cant board, cant pass, and cant play D. Those were his MAJOR FLAWS, which are in pretty much all of the key categories which players are evaluated on. Tell me then, what would say he is good at......?


So no, I'm not going to continue this discussion.


----------



## futuristxen

anyways. point is, obviously Melo is a big part of Team USA. He, Lebron, and Wade were the major cogs of the last team. Wade is gone this time, so it's Melo, Bron, Kobe, and Kidd.
Coach K could very well start them all with Howard in the middle. If Michael Redd makes the team, then I think that's a possibility, because Redd would allow the team to still have scoring off the bench.

I would prefer though if Melo came off the bench, just so Lebron can keep his minutes down.


----------



## BG7

PauloCatarino said:


> You may well be the only poster in the General Forum that thinks the Bulls have a chance to compete for the championship...
> 
> Think about it...
> 
> The ONLY ONE.



Its a two team race in the East between Chicago and Cleveland this year. 

If thats not a solid championship contender, I don't know what is. 

Once you get to the finals, you have

San Antonio: aging, Bulls matchup well with them.

Suns: Aging Nash, often come up short. Again, another team that the Bulls matchup good enough with.

Mavericks: Ultimate chokers. 

The only team that I don't think the Bulls can beat in the NBA Finals if they get there (victory isn't garaunteed against these other teams either, but its definitely very possible.) is the Houston Rockets. Bulls just matchup terrible with them (just like Cavs matched up poorly with the Spurs last year). That'd probably be a quick sweep.


----------



## rainman

Anyone else think this team isnt as good as WC team because no Duncan?.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

rainman said:


> Anyone else think this team isnt as good as WC team because no Duncan?.


The trapezoid lane mitigates Duncan's low post scoring. Not to mention he was getting killed by the refs last time around. His post defense would be a great though.

I think you bring up the weakest spot on this team...we need more dominant bigs. KG/Duncan would make this team complete, imagine them next to D. Howard...maybe in the actual Olympics they will suit up.


----------



## Diable

In FIBA you don't really need dominant big men so much as you need tough guys who can set hard screens and keep the other team from gooning it up.The FIBA refs don't seem to believe in illegal screens so you need to knock some of the other teams' guards on their asses to keep things from getting out of hand.We don't really need scoring from the interior,but we need guys who can defend bigs on the perimeter and we need to be able to answer if the other teams starts trying to beat our guys up.When they set dirty screens we need to set dirty screens.The biggest reason we lost in Japan was that Greece was tougher than us...And they got away with about a hundred and forty illegal screens in that game.If the refs aren't going to call that then you have to be able to dish it out to.


----------



## SeaNet

Diable said:


> In FIBA you don't really need dominant big men so much as you need tough guys who can set hard screens and keep the other team from gooning it up.The FIBA refs don't seem to believe in illegal screens so you need to knock some of the other teams' guards on their asses to keep things from getting out of hand.We don't really need scoring from the interior,but we need guys who can defend bigs on the perimeter and we need to be able to answer if the other teams starts trying to beat our guys up.When they set dirty screens we need to set dirty screens.The biggest reason we lost in Japan was that Greece was tougher than us...And they got away with about a hundred and forty illegal screens in that game.If the refs aren't going to call that then you have to be able to dish it out to.


I would add that the ideal FIBA big man also has good hands to catch and finish around the basket when defenses collapse on penetrators (think Oberto). Problem w/ the US big men, is that the tougher ones who are good defenders have soso to bad hands (Howard, Chandler), and the ones w/ good hands are either a bit weak (Bosh) or a terrible defender (Amare).


----------



## Astral

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> I never said this:
> 
> 
> 
> So no, I'm not going to continue this discussion.


I never said you did - it was unnamed. Was quoting Power_Ballin.

And, I apologize for forgetting to put his name in.


----------



## f22egl

Mebarak said:


> Its a two team race in the East between Chicago and Cleveland this year.
> 
> If thats not a solid championship contender, I don't know what is.
> 
> Once you get to the finals, you have
> 
> San Antonio: aging, Bulls matchup well with them.
> 
> Suns: Aging Nash, often come up short. Again, another team that the Bulls matchup good enough with.
> 
> Mavericks: Ultimate chokers.
> 
> The only team that I don't think the Bulls can beat in the NBA Finals if they get there (victory isn't garaunteed against these other teams either, but its definitely very possible.) is the Houston Rockets. Bulls just matchup terrible with them (just like Cavs matched up poorly with the Spurs last year). That'd probably be a quick sweep.


It's not a two team race in the Eastern Conference, especially before the season has even started.


----------



## SeaNet

Mebarak said:


> Its a two team race in the East between Chicago and Cleveland this year.
> 
> If thats not a solid championship contender, I don't know what is.
> 
> Once you get to the finals, you have
> 
> San Antonio: aging, Bulls matchup well with them.
> 
> Suns: Aging Nash, often come up short. Again, another team that the Bulls matchup good enough with.
> 
> Mavericks: Ultimate chokers.
> 
> The only team that I don't think the Bulls can beat in the NBA Finals if they get there (victory isn't garaunteed against these other teams either, but its definitely very possible.) is the Houston Rockets. Bulls just matchup terrible with them (just like Cavs matched up poorly with the Spurs last year). That'd probably be a quick sweep.


You really have a handle on the future.


----------



## futuristxen

Mebarak said:


> San Antonio: aging, Bulls matchup well with them.


Ta **** they do. 

Anyways. I think Oden shores up our frontline for the olympics. It will be:

Bosh/Amare
Howard/Oden

That's actually solid. And I like the physicality of Howard and Oden for those games.


----------



## MemphisX

I think Oden is taking the rest of the summer off, so he might not play in '08.


----------



## Roscoe Sheed

Mebarak said:


> Its a two team race in the East between Chicago and Cleveland this year.
> 
> If thats not a solid championship contender, I don't know what is.


Don't count out Miami, Detroit, Washington, and perhaps even the Knicks.


----------



## BG7

SeaNet said:


> I would add that the ideal FIBA big man also has good hands to catch and finish around the basket when defenses collapse on penetrators (think Oberto). Problem w/ the US big men, is that the tougher ones who are good defenders have soso to bad hands (Howard, Chandler), and the ones w/ good hands are either a bit weak (Bosh) or a terrible defender (Amare).


We should probably be sending Eddy Curry over then. He isn't a good rebounder, but he would be pretty good for international competition. He is HUGE, just sit the guy down in the lane, and clog the whole lane up. With no defensive three seconds that works. He has the best hands in the league, and is going to dunk on you if he's close enough to the basket.


----------



## BG7

Roscoe Sheed said:


> Don't count out Miami, Detroit, Washington, and perhaps even the Knicks.


Detroit and Miami might be in the mix. Washington sucks. They won't be in the mix.


----------



## rainman

futuristxen said:


> Ta **** they do.
> 
> Anyways. I think Oden shores up our frontline for the olympics. It will be:
> 
> Bosh/Amare
> Howard/Oden
> 
> That's actually solid. And I like the physicality of Howard and Oden for those games.


I think he would help if healthy but where he gets in trouble is trying to guard people on the perimiter. In the paint he's a beast but doesnt have the quickest feet in my opinion to stay with people outside(thus tends to foul too much). Offensively he would be good at setting picks and finishing misses at the rim, but he isnt going to do much away from the basket.


----------



## Roscoe Sheed

Mebarak said:


> Detroit and Miami might be in the mix. Washington sucks. They won't be in the mix.


You are a Chicago fan, right?

I'm really not sure Chicago would beat the Wizards in a playoff series. Arenas, Butler, and Jamison would give them fits.


----------



## BG7

Bulls were 3-1 against the Wizards last year. Wizards simply aren't that good of a team. Bulls would have beat them in 2005 if Curry and Deng weren't out.


----------



## -33-

Agreed - Washington really isn't that good. They'll pile up some wins by playing in the SouthEast, but they are really just an average mid-to-lower level playoff team. Getting to the 2nd round would be a success for the Wizards.


----------



## BG7

Shaq_Diesel said:


> Agreed - Washington really isn't that good. They'll pile up some wins by playing in the SouthEast, but they are really just an average mid-to-lower level playoff team. Getting to the 2nd round would be a success for the Wizards.


Maybe they'll have 2nd round t-shirts printed out again 

I could see one of Detroit/Miami not getting into the 2nd round. 

I think Bulls take the Central, with Cleveland right there with them. Then New Jersey takes the Atlantic, Miami the SouthEast. Which would make a Detroit/Miami first round matchup if it goes that way. Maybe we can save the Chicago vs. Miami mathcup until the 2nd round this year.


----------



## HB

Am I missing something here, when did the Bulls make the finals in the last 5 years or so?


----------



## L

Why are we even talking about the Bulls?


----------



## SeaNet

Mebarak said:


> We should probably be sending Eddy Curry over then. He isn't a good rebounder, but he would be pretty good for international competition. He is HUGE, just sit the guy down in the lane, and clog the whole lane up. With no defensive three seconds that works. He has the best hands in the league, and is going to dunk on you if he's close enough to the basket.


He might pass on the hands issue. But he would fail on the toughness, rebounding, defense, passing and not being a ****ing idiot issues.


----------



## unluckyseventeen

Mebarak said:


> Its a two team race in the East between Chicago and Cleveland this year.
> 
> If thats not a solid championship contender, I don't know what is.
> 
> Once you get to the finals, you have
> 
> San Antonio: aging, Bulls matchup well with them.
> 
> Suns: Aging Nash, often come up short. Again, another team that the Bulls matchup good enough with.
> 
> Mavericks: Ultimate chokers.
> 
> The only team that I don't think the Bulls can beat in the NBA Finals if they get there (victory isn't garaunteed against these other teams either, but its definitely very possible.) is the Houston Rockets. Bulls just matchup terrible with them (just like Cavs matched up poorly with the Spurs last year). That'd probably be a quick sweep.


Please. You're still in the eastern conference, and still don't know what a true championship contender is until you get beat down by them in the finals.

Any of the afore mentioned teams would beat the Bulls in no less than 5 games. Hell, the Jazz could beat the Bulls in a playoff series, and they're not even a championship contender. I might even bet on the Nuggets beating the Bulls in a playoff series, and they were the 6th seed in the West last year.

You Eastern teams think "well, once you get to the NBA finals, we have a pretty good chance, even though the entire Western Conference is far superior to any of our teams!". Well, you're wrong. The only team that does have a chance is a healthy Miami because they have dominating players. Ben Gordon and Tyrus Thomas are not those, no matter how many times you drop their name.

The Bulls are not a championship contender. They won't be until they can march over anybody in the weak Eastern Conference, not nearly get swept by a team you don't even have listed as competition in your conference (Detroit).


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## Big Mike

L said:


> Why are we even talking about the Bulls?


Because some Bulls homer hijacked the thread. Who cares who is best in the East they still fall behind the top five in the West.


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## BG7

Big Mike said:


> Because some Bulls homer hijacked the thread. Who cares who is best in the East they still fall behind the top five in the West.


Try the typical baiters and personal attackers bring up the Bulls to drive the topic off topic.


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## unluckyseventeen

Mebarak said:


> Try the typical baiters and personal attackers bring up the Bulls to drive the topic off topic.


Oh? Let's review the posts in order, shall we?



futuristxen said:


> Lebron has turned himself into a very good defender. He is probably the closest thing to a defensive stopper on the Cavs team(which got to the NBA finals out east entirely due to Lebron and their defense).





CubanLaker said:


> They got to the finals because they got a cake walk through the 1st 2 rounds and then beat a Pistons team that was a shell of its former self *but thats fore another topic.*





Benedict_Boozer said:


> Interesting. So the Pistons were a shell of themselves against the Bulls also? Or only against the Cavs?
> 
> Looking at the actual talent on the Cavs (or lack thereof) relative to the other teams in the East, we don't exactly have major advantages outside of LBJ. Chicago and Detroit for example have much deeper rosters. If anything the Cavs overachieved..not to mention everyone has an equal shot to establish seeding. Give credit where it's due.


..And here you come.



Mebarak said:


> Bulls have a deeper roster this year, but they had zero depth last year. Outside of Ben, Kirk, and Luol are he only guys you could count on every night. All the bigs sucked except Tyrus and Wallace. Tyrus was inconsistent, definitely a game changer when on though. Big Ben was garbage half the time. Then Nocioni was injured, Thabo would play good in 1 game, then have 10 bad games...Duhon was in a drunken stupor.
> 
> Bulls just had a complete meltdown against the Pistons in those first 3 games. Dreadful.



Nobody was talking about the Bulls until you started. Nice try, though.


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## MRedd22

Mebarak said:


> Bulls were 3-1 against the Wizards last year. Wizards simply aren't that good of a team. Bulls would have beat them in 2005 if Curry and Deng weren't out.



Cleavland I believe was 2-0 against SA but look what happened in the finals.


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