# Article:Curry&Reinsdorf go ONE on ONE



## unBULLievable (Dec 13, 2002)

Curry only coming back? 

And some bits:

*Bulls Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf signed off on former general manager Jerry Krause's plan to build around two players making the jump from high school to the NBA and one with 17 games of college experience.

After three seasons, the general consensus is that current general manager John Paxson will abandon the plan and break up the core of Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler and Jamal Crawford this summer.

In yet another sign that Curry is the most likely to return of the three, Reinsdorf asked Curry to the Berto Center for an individual meeting on Tuesday. In it, Reinsdorf stressed Curry's value to the franchise and reiterated management's desire for the center to attack his off-season conditioning with a vengeance.

*The Bulls will explore sign-and-trade possibilities for Crawford as the June 24 draft nears. Failing that, the Bulls can match any offer Crawford receives once the July 1 free-agent negotiating season begins. The Knicks reportedly will have interest in Crawford.

This summer will be a busy one for Paxson. After his talk with Reinsdorf, it looks like it will be for Curry too.
------------------------------------------

When Reinsdorf goes to the Berto Center changes usually happen.
Stay tuned..though it looks like Jamal&Tyson are on their way OUT.


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## unBULLievable (Dec 13, 2002)

Also with Eddys upcoming RFA status ..only Reinsdorf can guarantee him that he WILL GET the MONEY as long as he is commited to PAxson's&Skiles program.

*In yet another sign that Curry is the most likely to return of the three, Reinsdorf asked Curry to the Berto Center for an individual meeting on Tuesday. In it, Reinsdorf stressed Curry's value to the franchise and reiterated management's desire for the center to attack his off-season conditioning with a vengeance.* 

If Jamal is S&Ted it's going to be to a team that is over the cap and can't get him outright.

*Tellem also represents Curry, who is close with Crawford. There is some belief within the organization that Curry would benefit from the departure of Crawford. Asked to address that scenario in the dwindling days of the regular season, Curry said he hoped it wouldn't happen.*


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Good move by the Bulls. 

They are doing the right thing with Crawford. Explore the interest first. If it will be worth the effort then do it. If not? Match any reasonable offer. 

If we get Okafor, chandler is bait, for sure.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

Lets refer back to a thread PC Load Letter started about "negative influences": 

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90576&forumid=27

*"There are several negative influences for Eddy on this team that we need to get rid of. We already took care of some of them earlier in the season..."*

While this meeting with Curry may not be a direct move to "get rid of" those so-called negative influences, it sure looks like Step One in terms of seperating Curry from them.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

The Bulls are just scared Currys buddy is gonna go visting other teams and be on the 2way telling Curry how great things are when youre dealing with a real organization and how things are done in the real nba .They are afraid Curry will get a sniff of this and bolt. 

Who out there really thinks Crawfords plan this summer is to return to the Bulls ? :laugh: 

Reinsdorf has made a pitch to cut off the its feels great to be a FA and get word of how teams truly feel about me feedback that Crawford and Fizer will be sending him .

Break up the core ?When was Crawford ever a part of the core ?Theyve been trading [edit] for 4 years :laugh: 

Reinsdorf had a similar talk with Curry and Crawford last summer during a white sox game if I recall so who knows what is really going on .


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> Break up the core ?When was Crawford ever a part of the core ?Theyve been trading [edit] for 4 years :laugh:


And if it's true that he's been on the block for 4 years, why is he still a Bull? Four years without a single acceptable trade offer? What does that suggest?

Crawford trade value:


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

I still think reporters are reading too much into things. I fully expect that the "core" will all be back next season. They would be stupid to come this far developing the young players and then decide it's time to move on right before they blossom. It would be the Artest/Miller trade for Rose all over again. Sure, NY wants to do a sign & trade of Kurt Thomas for Jamal, if Pax does that then he is an idiot...thats the bottom line. At this point the best course of action is to keep the kids together and try to add some LEGIT NBA pieces around them.

And if we are really considering Curry a cornerstone that is that important to the franchise, does moving his best friend really seem like the best way to endear him to the franchise? And I don't see how Crawford could be a bad influence on Curry, he worked AT THE BERTO last offseaon harder than any current Bull and he is always saying the right things. I'd say if Crawford goes somewhere else Curry will be ready to leave as well.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> I still think reporters are reading too much into things. I fully expect that the "core" will all be back next season. They would be stupid to come this far developing the young players and then decide it's time to move on right before they blossom. It would be the Artest/Miller trade for Rose all over again. Sure, NY wants to do a sign & trade of Kurt Thomas for Jamal, if Pax does that then he is an idiot...thats the bottom line. At this point the best course of action is to keep the kids together and try to add some LEGIT NBA pieces around them.
> 
> And if we are really considering Curry a cornerstone that is that important to the franchise, does moving his best friend really seem like the best way to endear him to the franchise? And I don't see how Crawford could be a bad influence on Curry, he worked AT THE BERTO last offseaon harder than any current Bull and he is always saying the right things. I'd say if Crawford goes somewhere else Curry will be ready to leave as well.


you are so right about reporters reading into stuff. but ace, my friend, you may want to brace yourself, hold on to something sturdy, cause one of those guys is likely to be gone. i think it'll be tyson but i wouldn't be surprised at all if it were jamal. i think pax will try and resign jamal, i really do, but he will not overspend and he shouldn't. and i think jamal has had enough of chicago and despite saying all the right things, i think he is looking to get out. could he be back? sure. i'd bet after this summer jamal will no longer hold the claim of the "bull who worked out at the berto the most." but i somehow think we need to prepare ourselves for the inevitable fact that there will be significant change this summer and the three C's will be only a memory. and if eddy curry isn't strong enough emotionally to withstand the departure of jamal, then i worry about him too. time he grew up.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> And if it's true that he's been on the block for 4 years, why is he still a Bull? Four years without a single acceptable trade offer? What does that suggest?
> ...


How many times is someone gonna say that? :laugh: 

What it means that teams are not gonna pay the Bulls equal or better value for something they know they can be duped into giving away .

The Bulls the last few years have been the Kings of the lopsided trades any gm worth a damn knows either you get them on the low ball offer or you wait and sign them when they become RFA because the Bulls are not gonna shell out the dough.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> 
> 
> and if eddy curry isn't strong enough emotionally to withstand the departure of jamal, then i worry about him too. time he grew up.


If Eddy leaves it will be because the Bulls suck and the future doesnt look too bright for them the clock is ticking and believe it or not we are at the point where none of them will shed a tear about leaving this team and if the Bulls plan to keep them around past this usmmer they need to be the ones doing the impressing .

Paxson and the Bulls are the ones on the hotseat .


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Paxson on the hotseat?


Yeah good one. Only one year at GM and on the hotseat? Please. Jamal and Tyson are on the hotseat.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> 
> If Eddy leaves it will be because the Bulls suck and the future doesnt look too bright for them the clock is ticking and believe it or not we are at the point where none of them will shed a tear about leaving this team and if the Bulls plan to keep them around past this usmmer they need to be the ones doing the impressing .
> ...


sheeesh. so many pessimists around here lately... eddy shouldn't be worrying about jamal, eddy should be worrying about eddy.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> 
> If Eddy leaves it will be because the Bulls suck and the future doesnt look too bright for them the clock is ticking and believe it or not *we are at the point where none of them will shed a tear about leaving this team* and if the Bulls plan to keep them around past this usmmer they need to be the ones doing the impressing .
> ...


Don't underestimate the power of Mamma Curry's big strong nurturing arms that are tightly wrapped around her little boy. Would Eddy leave Mamma and family willingly???


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Basghetti80</b>!
> Paxson on the hotseat?
> 
> 
> Yeah good one. Only one year at GM and on the hotseat? Please. Jamal and Tyson are on the hotseat.


He is on the hotseat because whether we as Bulls fans want to admit it this has been the worst franchise in the league the last six years getting rid of players is not a banishment its a parole .


To be on the hotseat as a player means youre not TRYING to leave but the team may move you .I think both Tyson and Jamal want a change of venue and Eddy is gonna follow .

I dont think Pax will be fired but he has to prove to not only the talent that we have but other players coming in that the Bulls are about winning and have some clue about what they are doing and with Eddy going into his 4th year time is running out .


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> 
> 
> sheeesh. so many pessimists around here lately... eddy shouldn't be worrying about jamal, eddy should be worrying about eddy.


 

Im sure he is not worried because with him knowing Fizer and Crawford well he will get first hand info regarding the workings of real franchises and how they do things in the real nba .If the Bulls deal Tyson thats just another person who he can find out about life outside the Bulls from.

The Bulls are basically creating quite a long list of former employees with nothing but head shaking disappointing statements to say about this franchise who are doing well outside of it.

But of course they are all wrong and we have the record to prove it


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have you ever personally bought a house and rehabbed it, or do you know someone who has? That's all that's going on here. Paxson was put in charge of a real "fixer-upper." Why don't we give it a little time to see if he can turn this "sow's ear" into a "silk purse."


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> Have you ever personally bought a house and rehabbed it, or do you know someone who has? That's all that's going on here. Paxson was put in charge of a real "fixer-upper." Why don't we give it a little time to see if he can turn this "sow's ear" into a "silk purse."


Pax didnt buy though he inherited the house and the reason was because he was familiar with all the parts and the inner workings so the last year was warmup speech doesnt work with me .

If we wanted another 5 year plan then we shouldve went outside the loop and not decided to become a work study program for gm's.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Basghetti80</b>!
> Paxson on the hotseat?
> 
> 
> Yeah good one. Only one year at GM and on the hotseat? Please. Jamal and Tyson are on the hotseat.


JC is going to get a nice offer this summer. No problem there.

TC just needs to work on getting 100% healthy and he will get an even nicer offer next year. No problem there, either.

Especally, if season ticket holders do like I expect, Paxson is the guy on the hot seat. One more step back for the franchise and we are in the NBDL. 

Plenty of GMs have been fired after 2 years.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> Lets refer back to a thread PC Load Letter started about "negative influences":
> 
> http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90576&forumid=27
> ...


0

My eloquent friend Kismet, where have you been?


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> JC is going to get a nice offer this summer. No problem there.


Just curious, but who do you see offering him a "nice" deal?


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 
> Just curious, but who do you see offering him a "nice" deal?


I expect a team like NYK to give him a multi-year MLE deal.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> I expect a team like NYK to give him a multi-year MLE deal.


Don't count on it, especially if Rasheed Wallace remains a free agent for a while. The team to keep an eye on is Atlanta. They'll pitch all the big boys and get shut out. That will put them in a situation where they might overpay someone like Crawford so they'll have something to show for their efforts this summer. Think of how Krause overpaid for Mercer a while back 'cause the Hawks will likely find themselves in the same kind of situation.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 
> Just curious, but who do you see offering him a "nice" deal?


According to JC's sister there are 8 teams interested, but didn't say which ones...

Atlanta, Utah, Nuggets, Knicks, Golden State, and another team I won't say I've heard are interested...

As much as I hear on this board that Chandler can get us a nice player, it confuses me that some (not referring to you Retro) could think JC couldn't get a nice deal.

If any of C-Unit played their value up this year it was JC...

His value isn't at the 2 position, but I think teams salivate at the fact this kid can play the 1 and he can SCORE. He's the kind of guy who as your 3rd, maybe 4th option on a good team that could pick up the whole team from time to time on off nights...

He'll be a one somewhere else, and I think he'll get the kind of deal that will make the Bulls think, plus I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled an Odom and publically asked the Bulls to not resign him.

I read an article a couple weeks ago that said we we're looking at resigning him for 3.5 mil...if we go to JC with a 3.5 mil offer that's just sad.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> According to JC's sister there are 8 teams interested, but didn't say which ones...
> ...


wow, I'm surprised to hear some of that. Now pm Me and give me all the gory details ya left out!


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> The Bulls are just scared Currys buddy is gonna go visting other teams and be on the 2way telling Curry how great things are when youre dealing with a real organization and how things are done in the real nba .


Dude...you really need to go into politics.

Your ability to spin things is second to none.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> And if we are really considering Curry a cornerstone that is that important to the franchise, does moving his best friend really seem like the best way to endear him to the franchise?


Dude...it's a business.

B-U-S-I-N-E-S-S

If you owned a business and your wife, mother, brother was absolutely killing your ability to make money by bad-mouthing customers, doing poor sloppy work, and by not being reliable...

You'd move them too.

Theres no room for "endearments" in this business.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Dude...it's a business.
> ...


I guess that might apply if Crawford was really doing those things, but he isn't. And it may be a B-U-S-I-N-E-S-S but if we WANT to build around Curry alienating him might not be the best way to do that, no?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Atlanta, Utah, Nuggets, Knicks, Golden State, and another team I won't say I've heard are interested...


I'd bet Boston or Charlotte.

Thats not knowing anything of their cap situations though.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> I guess that might apply if Crawford was really doing those things, but he isn't.


Nice subtle way to try to shift the argument.

The point was...it's a business, and sometimes you have to make a tough call.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Nice subtle way to try to shift the argument.
> ...



Yes but my point is it is also a business where you have to take your players feelings into consideration. If the Bulls just trade Currys best friend or let him walk it could have a negative influence on Currys opinion of the franchise, right? If they really are that high on Curry they need to be cognizant of his feelings.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> If the Bulls just trade Currys best friend or let him walk it could have a negative influence on Currys opinion of the franchise, right? If they really are that high on Curry they need to be cognizant of his feelings.


..not if it hurts the organizaton.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but my point is it is also a business where you have to take your players feelings into consideration. If the Bulls just trade Currys best friend or let him walk it could have a negative influence on Currys opinion of the franchise, right? If they really are that high on Curry they need to be cognizant of his feelings.


My guess is JC does everything he can to get away from the Bulls...

EC next year will follow suit...

I kind of agree with ACE, but for a different reason...

It seems to me that JC is best at getting EC the ball, there's a chemistry there on the offensive end. 

Forget what they do in their personal time, why break THAT up?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> EC next year will follow suit...


Nah...he'll re-up good and proper.



> It seems to me that JC is best at getting EC the ball


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Hmm. Big season for EC. Looking at the players we traded away to make 'room' for Eddy, the overpaid role players we acquired to help 'mentor' Eddy, and the fact that we're still resting the near future fate of the franchise on a 21 year old kid... I'd say its a big summer for Eddy that's for sure.

As for Jamal, I don't have a clue as to what team he will be with next season.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

So here's a question - If you're Pax/Reinsdorf, do you go ahead and do your best to sign Eddy this offseason to a max or near max contract or do you let him hit RFAgency next season like Jamal this year?

If Eddy is your franchise player, shouldn't you make the committment? Would it be foolish to spend max dollars on a kid who hasn't necessarily proved that he deserves those kinds of dollars? Do you run the risk of souring the guy on this franchise even more next season to the point that he wants nothing better than to get out or do you ink him long-term and then you call the shots?

With Jamal, that was a pretty easy decision. Same with Chandler this year. Eddy is different. To sign or not to sign, that is the question.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Sign.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Pax has already taken a "prove it to me" stance...

Until Eddy has a year where he doesn't wait until January to show up, he won't be signed to anything by the Bulls...

Next year EC will get a max deal from someone...

My guess, wherever Riley is, Memphis, and more...


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> My guess is JC does everything he can to get away from the Bulls...
> ...


Thats a good point too and one I agree with. there is definitley good on court chemistry between EC & JC & JC is the best at getting Eddy the ball down low. No reason to mess that up.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

> Pax has already taken a "prove it to me" stance...
> 
> Until Eddy has a year where he doesn't wait until January to show up, he won't be signed to anything by the Bulls...



I applaud him for this. It is about time there was some accountability in regards to our young kids. I like his "prove it to me" stance.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> JC is the best at getting Eddy the ball down low. No reason to mess that up.


When Hinrich is off the court...maybe.

Thats about it.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> When Hinrich is off the court...maybe.
> ...


No. Crawford does a better job of feeding Eddy in the post than Hinrich. Hinrich may do a lot of things better than Crawford, feeding Curry in the post isn't one of them. Not that Hinrich is bad at it himself.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> Crawford does a better job of feeding Eddy in the post than Hinrich


Even if this _were_ the truth, taken by itself, it's not a reason to keep a player on your team.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Even if this _were_ the truth, taken by itself, it's not a reason to keep a player on your team.


Yeah, if you take it by itself. Throw in that the particular player he feeds so well is considered a "cornerstone" and given that they are best friends and that Jamal is a decent player himself and thats more than enough reason IMO.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

I have heard you make that statement about Crawford can feed the ball into Curry better than Hinrich numerous times. I still don't see it.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Basghetti80</b>!
> I applaud him for this. It is about time there was some accountability in regards to our young kids. I like his "prove it to me" stance.


All the "prove it to me stance" shows to me is that Paxson doesn't want to make proactive decisions.

It's actually more of a "Well, I am not comfortable in my evaluations skills even though I have seen these guys on a daily basis for years and will let the market dictate what happens, even if I lose valuable assets for nothing"

If any of these guys are the foundation, Pax should put his money where his mouth is and make a reasonable offer. If these players are not a fit, he needs to look at moving them ASAP.

Looks like Pax is following the Clips strategy and we all know how well that has worked.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Basghetti80</b>!
> I have heard you make that statement about Crawford can feed the ball into Curry better than Hinrich numerous times. I still don't see it.


it's pretty obvious to Me.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, if you take it by itself. Throw in that the particular player he feeds so well is considered a "cornerstone" and given that they are best friends and that Jamal is a decent player himself and thats more than enough reason IMO.


Your opinion isn't worth much more than some spilled ketchup in a hot dog stand.  

Mr. 6.8 APG as a rookie does an outstanding job of getting the ball to the scorers in scoring position.

Arguing who is better at it is really a worthless argument: 

Kirk _does it well_ and he's _ the point guard_ We don't need to re-sign Jamal to do it. It's a task thats covered already.

Jamal would do well to concentrate his attention on the job of the SG.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Your opinion isn't worth much more than some spilled ketchup in a hot dog stand.
> ...


Well what my opinion means to you and what it means to someone else are two entirely different things. Besides, I really don't care what anyone thinks of my opinion, I know I am right and thats all that matters.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> I really don't care what anyone thinks of my opinion, I know I am right and thats all that matters.


Sounds like Krause to me...


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

> Besides, I really don't care what anyone thinks of my opinion, I know I am right and thats all that matters.



Boy you sure are conceited aren't you? Why even bother saying our opinion? Why don't you just tell us what to think and we go with that? Sound about right to you.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Basghetti80</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Boy you sure are conceited aren't you? Why even bother saying our opinion? Why don't you just tell us what to think and we go with that? Sound about right to you.


If you want to call it conceit then you can. I like to think of it as being confident in my own views. At least I actually listen to other peoples opinions and take them into consideration. I never have told anyone "what to think"...that why it is MY opinon and not yours. Maybe I should be careful about having an opinion that differs from yours though....I might have to fight off a petition! lol


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Sounds like Krause to me...


thanks for the vote of confidence, Krause is a brilliant scout!


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

> Maybe I should be careful about having an opinion that differs from yours though....I might have to fight off a petition! lol



I guess that is not considered baiting either is it? Whatever. I had moved on from all that but you had to bring it up. I guess you can get away with that being a mod though.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> thanks for the vote of confidence, Krause is a brilliant scout!


...and had a pickle for a brain when it came to knowing how to run an organization...

Stick to draft analysis, and let the rest of us do the real work.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> Mr. 6.8 APG as a rookie does an outstanding job of getting the ball to the scorers in scoring position.


I think Cuban said this on his blog but it would be very interesting to see the stats on whom the assist was made to.

Given that Craw scored more than Hinrich, would Craw and Hinrich have similar APG if you subtract each assists to each other?

It would also be telling about their assists to Curry.

p.s. Without the quanatative results, my impression is that Crawford and Curry have a very nice chemstry and Craw was the best at finding Curry this past year.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Basghetti80</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> I guess that is not considered baiting either is it? Whatever. I had moved on from all that but you had to bring it up. I guess you can get away with that being a mod though.


I was just messin with you...

I'm not some almighty mod out to abuse my power. you were the one telling me I was conceited and telling others how to think because I happen to have faith in my own views! Come on now, give me a break. Does me being a mod also mean I can't defend myself?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> ...and had a pickle for a brain when it came to knowing how to run an organization...
> ...


How bout you do what you want and I do what I want? Same as always! Sounds like a plan to me!


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> Does me being a mod also mean I can't defend myself?


Yes.

:laugh:


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes.
> ...


:laugh: 

Well, I'm going to anyway! they can strip me of mod status if the powers that be have a problem with me. they ASKED me to be a mod because I am such a fair and even handed person.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

You flat out said that you did not care about anyone elses opinion because you were right and that is what mattered. Hell then why I have a messageboard? Why don't you just write a column every week and we read it and take it as gospel. You don't care about anyone elses opinion in regards to Bulls players and in regards to what happens here(me and my boy sure learned that the other day!)


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> they ASKED me to be a mod because I am such a fair and even handed person.


After you slipped ém a 50 apiece?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Basghetti80</b>!
> You flat out said that you did not care about anyone elses opinion because you were right and that is what mattered. Hell then why I have a messageboard? Why don't you just write a column every week and we read it and take it as gospel. You don't care about anyone elses opinion in regards to Bulls players and in regards to what happens here(me and my boy sure learned that the other day!)


Dude. 

Back away from the keyboard.

Get some fresh air.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

Hinrich's passing to Eddy Curry is more mechanical and efficient while Jamal's is more fluid. I have to go with GB on this one. 

I can't agree also that Jamal is better for Eddy. Sure Eddy wants him here because he's his friend but Pax has to his parent and may have to say "No, he is bad for you"


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

It would be dumb to just let Jamal walk. It would be dumb to trade Chandler for Malik Rose.

It doesn't really matter what your personal feelings on the two players are...the fact is, if we lost both of them, that would bring the tally of lost lottery picks to 4. And when you factor in we lost our other pick like Artest for what is now Antonio Davis and JYD...well it's time to make a stand.

It's in the best interests of the franchise to sign crawford and sign him early on in the summer. We want to convert him fully to shooting guard. But he's not going to fully commit to that transition if he is auditioning to be a 1 for all of the teams that are pursuing him this summer. So the best thing to do is to offer him something just over the MLE, which is more than most teams can offer, and let that be that. Then we go to the draft, pick up a 3. Keep Chandler. And we move forward with that. As far as I can tell that's our best option.

As far as Reinsdorf and Curry, I'm glad to see that meeting. As near as anyone can tell this franchise is being built around Curry. So the ownership should have a closer relationship with him.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> it's pretty obvious to Me.


And to me as well. Crawford and Curry have a connection out there.... especially on the break. JCRAW is always looking to throw da OOOOOP to the big man.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> 
> JCRAW is always looking to throw da OOOOOP to the big man.


Thats why it's time to give the offense back to the PG, who can make good decisions and whose mind isn't instantly turned on by the prospect of a "sportscenter/AND1" play to the exclusion of better passes.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> ...and had a pickle for a brain when it came to knowing how to run an organization...
> ...


6 Banners under his watch.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> It would be dumb to just let Jamal walk.


Thats why Pax is looking for sign and trades.



> It doesn't really matter what your personal feelings on the two players are


EXACTLY!

This is what Reinsdorf and Pax have to get through Eddy's head about Jamal and about Tyson.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> 
> 
> 6 Banners under his watch.


80% Michael Jordan

10% Krause

10% the Organization


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Basghetti80</b>!
> You flat out said that you did not care about anyone elses opinion because you were right and that is what mattered. Hell then why I have a messageboard? Why don't you just write a column every week and we read it and take it as gospel. You don't care about anyone elses opinion in regards to Bulls players and in regards to what happens here(me and my boy sure learned that the other day!)


I don't even know who your "boy" is. And of course I listen to other peoples opinons, it weighs into how I form my own opinions sometimes too. But I DO have my own opinions and yeah I am pretty strong willed about it, so are you, so whats your point?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats why it's time to give the offense back to the PG, who can make good decisions and whose mind isn't instantly turned on by the prospect of a "sportscenter/AND1" play to the exclusion of better passes.


Hinrich turns the ball over more.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> 80% Michael Jordan
> ...


Have you ever heard of Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman?

Do you remember the season when MJ came back from baseball? 

What happened in that series against the Magic?

How did Jordan do with the Wiz?

Its a little more than MJ.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats why Pax is looking for sign and trades.
> ...


So long as the moves that they make appear to Eddy that they are trying to improve I think he'll accept them. But if he sees Crawford and Chandler get replaced by even more NBDL scrubs or *****y veterans well past their prime...well I think he's going to walk.

I don't think we can upgrade the team with a sign and trade with Crawford. I don't think most teams buy that Paxson would actually match an offer to Crawford. So I don't think we can get much back that would make us better than if we just resigned Jamal and held onto Tyson until his value came back up.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats why it's time to give the offense back to the PG, who can make good decisions and whose mind isn't instantly turned on by the prospect of a "sportscenter/AND1" play to the exclusion of better passes.


 

Jamal played pg and was averaging more assists than Kirk when he did. Jamal is very good at connecting on passes, that doesn't mean he is excited by the prospect of "sportscenter/and1" or whatever lame thing your talking about. I have seen Hinrich make some bad passes himself from time to time. If Jamal made so many bad passes he would have a horrible t/o to assist ratio, right? RIGHT?


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> ...


Ace, you're a fine mod. Having been down that path myself, its not always the easiest road to tread but you do it admirably. We may never agree on much, but I have tons of respect for the job you do on BB.net. Kudos.

Perspective folks. I just watched a 4-flat burn down last night steps away from my apartment. I sat for hours prettymuch dumbfounded at what I was seeing. Fortunately no lives were lost due in large part to the bravery of a select few and the cooperation of many. My hair still smells like smoke today and I've been a sleepless wreck all morning. Somehow all this JC/Hinrich/Skiles/Paxson stuff just doesn't give me the same edge that it used to. 

How utterly fortunate we are to debate our passions with other crazed and victory-starved Bulls fans worldwide. But at the end of the day, its nothing to lose sleep over. JM2C.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Ace, you're a fine mod. Having been down that path myself, its not always the easiest road to tread but you do it admirably. We may never agree on much, but I have tons of respect for the job you do on BB.net. Kudos.
> ...


Great post! Thanks for the props too I appreciate it. It's a thankless job most of the time thats for sure!


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Seems to me that Hinrich vs Jamal boils down to style of play more than anything.

Many people don't like the "AND1" perception. I can't say I love it either.... but I just don't see Jamal negatively affecting games with his "AND1" style very often, if at all. His shot selection is another story... the % has to go up.

But.... its not like Hinrich shoots any better. He's a crappy shooter % wise as well. I hope both of them improve or the Bulls will be hurting.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> 
> 
> Hinrich turns the ball over more.


Nah.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

I hear from a solid source that Curry and Reinsdorf did go ONE on ONE.

Reinsdorf blocked half of Curry's shots, and threw him into the stantion a few times.

Curry lost in a blowout.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Nah.


yah.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/chi/stats?year=season_2003&sort=36

the "TO" stands for turnover.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> Seems to me that Hinrich vs Jamal boils down to style of play more than anything.
> 
> Many people don't like the "AND1" perception. I can't say I love it either.... but I just don't see Jamal negatively affecting games with his "AND1" style very often, if at all. His shot selection is another story... the % has to go up.
> ...


Personally I absolutely love both guys. They bring different things to the table but they are both very skilled players. I probably like Jamal more because I have followed him since his college days and I have seen the improvement and he still has room to grow. Kirk is great a real hard worker, a talented guy, and a smart player. That being said, he isn't going to get a whole lot better IMO.

In any case, I think I am unbiased enough that I can see who does what best. Jamal clearly feeds Eddy better down low, Kirk is a better defender. They both have their virtues.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> 
> 
> yah.
> ...



Nice of you to clarify that for him lmao

:laugh:


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> 
> 
> Have you ever heard of Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman?
> ...


Really nice, subtle attempt at shifting the argument.

Here was your original (incorrect) argument:



> 6 Banners under his watch.


The results of his watch were determined 10% by the organization, 10% by him and 80% by MJ. 

You should read David Halberstams book on MJ. It'll clear all those misconceptions up.

Krause was a brilliant scout, but he didn't know how to run a basketball team.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

LMAO


Kirk 6.8 APG
2.68 TO
2.54 A/TO ratio

Jamal 5.1 APG
2.41 TO
2.12 A/TO ratio


Looks like ole' Kirk has the better assist to turnover ratio. Hmmmm....


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Krause was a brilliant scout, but he didn't know how to run a basketball team.


I'm not shifting the argument. 

I was wondering where in the 80/10/10 breakdown you placed Pippen, Grant and Rodman. I guess they would be part of the 10% allocated for "organization", if you gave them any credit at all. If that's the case, then you think Krause had more to do with the success then the combination of all other Bulls players and staff... which means you think Krause is pretty good. I agree with that!

The basketball team he ran has six titles. He knows how to run a team.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He was passing to better players than KH did.

KH's 7 assists per game would be even higher without having to pass to NBDL scrubs.

Plus he's a better decision maker.

What did Jamal do as rookie? Could he have averaged 7 assists a game as a rookie?

Fact is, the organization subsequently spent two high draft picks on PG's and, after 4 seasons, the organization changed his position. 

Says mucho right there...stats or no stats.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Basghetti80</b>!
> LMAO
> 
> 
> ...



That's cool. Hinrich turns the ball over more.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

the question wasn't one of "who has the better A/TO ratio", it was "who turns the ball over MORE"

Kirk: 2.68
Jamal: 2.41


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> But.... its not like Hinrich shoots any better. He's a crappy shooter % wise as well.


I bet you by his fourth season in the league he will.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> 
> 
> yah.
> ...


Fuzzy math.

Plus, he's a rookie.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> he isn't going to get a whole lot better


So we should trade him like we did Brand who the same argument was made about?

Hmmm...?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Come on GB, Hinrich has 4 years of college experience, his dad is a coach, he has been playing since he was knee high to a grasshopper. Jamal started playing seriously as a junior in HS. He played 17 games at Michigan and didn't play a hell of a lot as a Bull before last season. Lets be realistic here.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> So we should trade him like we did Brand who the same argument was made about?
> ...


I've never suggested that. I guess it would depend on what he could bring back as with everyone, right?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not shifting the argument.
> ...


The player acquisitions belong to Krause.

Drafting Pippen and Grant belong to Krause AND to the organization.

Making it all work was pure MJ.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I'm dumber for having clicked into this thread.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> the question wasn't one of "who has the better A/TO ratio", it was "who turns the ball over MORE"
> 
> Kirk: 2.68
> Jamal: 2.41


That .27 makes all the difference in the real-world, doesn't it?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Fuzzy math.
> ...


He's 9 months younger than Crawford and is far more developed than Jamal is IMO. College is a much better environment to develop players than the NBA.

There are different classes of "rookie" in today's NBA, as I'm sure you'll agree.

If Kirk was this "uber" point guard that people make him out to be, he should be able to blow the "AND1" assist/TO ratio of Jamal out of the water, no? He does not.

BTW... I think Kirk is a solid player. Jamal will be the much better NBA player.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> *I'm dumber* for having clicked into this thread.


Thats possible?

 





:laugh:


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> Jamal started playing seriously as a junior in HS. He played 17 games at Michigan and didn't play a hell of a lot as a Bull before last season.


:boohoo:


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> 
> 
> He's 9 months younger than Crawford


Crawford has spent about 48 months more time with the best players, coaches and trainers in the world than KH.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

I would say that Kirk is the better at feeding the post, especially as the year went on. He gets the ball to the post player in a position that they can do something with it. I would say that Jamal has far more "chemistry" with Curry. Those two have that whole unspoken ESP thing going. That comes from playing with each other for a couple of years and knowing each others tendencies.

Frankly, I think the two of them could make one helluva versitile backcourt combo. I hope Pax seriously considers keeping Jamal around if the price is right.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*The backcourt in the future...*

Bulls rock.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)




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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> I would say that Kirk is the better at feeding the post, especially as the year went on. He gets the ball to the post player in a position that they can do something with it.


Great point.



> That comes from playing with each other for a couple of years and knowing each others tendencies.


Another good point. We've got quite a treat coming shortly. I think it can be Parker/Duncan special once they've spent some time togather.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Dead boards don't generate eyeballs.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

bump


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

Right or wrong...Pax, PLEASE trade Jamal so we can be done with these debates. It's driving me craaaaaaazzzzzy!!!


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> Pax, PLEASE trade Jamal


What would it be fair to get in return?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> What would it be fair to get in return?


thats the thing, I don't think your going to be able to get anything fair for Jamal in a sign & trade...probably not much at all.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> thats the thing, I don't think your going to be able to get anything fair for Jamal in a sign & trade...probably not much at all.


Without taking into the account the constraints of what our team needs in totality .... I believe that fair equal value for Jamal Crawford is Caron Butler

Hustler .. Jerome Williams and Speed Demon .. Eddie Robinson (who destroyed Miami in the playoffs a couple of seasons ago ) would do well in Miami's system

So we send these guys with Jamal signed at $6.2M starting and Toronto's 2nd round pick for $18.5M all up 

And they send Eddie Jones and Caron Butler back for $15.4M

We satisfy the BYC issue of salary in and salary out for Jamal .. plus Miami can afford to absorb $3M of salary differential which would take them to 7 players for $43.5M 

Assume a cap of $45M 

At the #19 pick they go with Brazilian Center ( Brigham Young senior ) Rafael Araujo 

They now have 7 players for $45M and three x 2nd round picks 40 ( from us via Toronto ) , 48 and 54 

Riley could go with a project like Luca Bogdanovic at the SF and go for solid picks like Tony Allen/Romain Sato for the SG or Lionel Chalmers at the PG 

I would also expect him to bring back Loren Woods, Malik Allen and Udonis Haslem for the league minimum .. in addition to adding guys like Michael Curry and Milt Palacio for the league minimum 

That leaves the Heat's roster looking like 

*

Araujo
Grant
Odom
Wade
Crawford

bench

M.Allen
Haslem
E.Robinson
T.Allen
Palacio

J.Williams
M.Curry



3rd string/project 

Woods
Bogdanovic
Chalmers

*

The Bulls would have ( assuming we draft Okafor )

*

Curry
Okafor
Butler
Jones
Hinrich

bench

Davis
Chandler
Johnson
Person ( partial MLE signing at $1.9M )
Ward ( $1.6M exception )

Pargo

 The Rest 

Pippen
Jeffries
Sato #32 pick 

*


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Good thoughts FJ...but they'll balk, thinking that they can sign JC without the trade AND still have Caron play for them or move him for another piece.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

There was never any explanation given for the coversation killing thread locking that took place earlier.

I think it would be in the best interest of the board if we were briefly told what rules were broken so that they can be avoided in the future.

Thanks.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

<b>kukoc4ever</b>

Come on, you can't argue because one guy has more TO, that player is worse. 

It's true Crawford goes for the alley oop all the time with Eddy Curry but I can remember at least 30 times that they botched that up. I've seen like 4 go in.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Thats %13


Hmm...


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Nice post FJ- I really like that trade, and it seems feasible to me. Butler looks like he's answered his injury questions, and this would be a pretty nice deal for us as far as I can tell, and not bad for Miami either.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> Nice post FJ- I really like that trade, and it seems feasible to me. Butler looks like he's answered his injury questions, and this would be a pretty nice deal for us as far as I can tell, and not bad for Miami either.


Butler's not going anywhere...


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> What would it be fair to get in return?


Are you trying to turn me into an enabler?


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Butler's not going anywhere...


Where does he play then 

You have 144 minutes at the 1 to 3 

Odom plays 38, Wade , 38 , Jones 30 , Alston 24

That's 14 minutes left over 

And before you say that Butler would assume Jones's minutes.. a still productive or semi productive Jones earning $13.5M is still going to be played reasonable minutes 

You might lose Alston .. given that you don't own bird rights and can only match up to MLE .. yet you won't have enough room under your cap to retain him past $2M ... he may well attract more than this 

If you say OK we lose Rafer so there go Rafer's minutes to Butler .. would you not be better off rationalising the backcourt better , positionally , if you accept Butler for Crawford is fair and fits needs requirements of both teams 

In this scenario you have Odom , Wade and Crawford playing 38 minutes per for 114 minutes with the remaining 30 minutes filled by Eddie Robinson and Milt Palacio ( 20 and 10 respectively )

Michael Curry and Tony Allen in reserve

If you accept that Crawford and Butler are comparable in value without anyone trying to swindle anyone - just in fundamental value .. then if you can swap Crawford and Butler , and unload the contract of Jones that rebalances your backcourt with Crawford playing a more natural scoring 1 role and Wade playing the 2 role with another ballhandler in the half court Odom playing that 3 role.. that is a very well balanced and arguably better balanced and skilled back court then having Butler in the mix who is a natural 3 .. and to make minutes for him you have to squeeze Wade to an un natural 1 position and/or Odom to an un natural 4 position 

The salary analysis over 4 years is a wash with Miami carrying a net $2M over 4 years which is neither here nor there
Butler may not be going anywhere nor Crawford for that matter .. oh wait .. unless Isiah says so and forces Pax to take crap ( which is why no deal was done at the deadline BTW .. we were prepared to let him walk then ) 

We don't have to S and T him .. he gets an offer at the MLE and we will match it .. unless Utah or Atlanta offers him greater than $6M-$6.5M 

But if either of these two offer him anything greater and we can't get a sign and trade done .. write it down .. take it to the Bank 

HE WILL WALK AND POX WILL LET HIM UNDER DIRECTIVE FROM PAPPY 

Why ?

L Tax and we will have greater spread capacity by using the MLE and the $1.6M exception


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

Plus for all you clowns that are buying into this Eddy and Jamal .. good guy buddy cop Jon and Ponch thing 

Eddy plays next year 

Refuses a deal 

Plays for the qualifying offer the following year and then goes Unrestricted in 3 seasons from now 

If you deal Jamal for Caron just because you can unload Eddie Jones and Eddie Robinson's contract would be expiring ... Miami in theory would have some nice cap cushion 3 seasons forward .... particularly if you could augment that trade to include Brian Grant for Antonio Davis .. to offer Eddy Curry a max contract if they wished

3 years forward :

*

Curry
PF to be named later
Odom
Wade
Crawford

*

And don't the kids just love it !

Guess Jamal would too being reunited with his bum chum


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

:laugh: Your not gonna get Caron Butler back in a SIGN & TRADE scenario for Jamal Crawford. Never going to happen. In sign & trades you traditionally get back a lot less than value because oftentimes the other team could simply sign him WITHOUT doing a s&t. We'd be more likely to get Rasual Butler. Maybe someone like Kurt Thomas at best. DOn't expect to get much back via sign & trade or you will likely be dissappointed.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> :laugh: Your not gonna get Caron Butler back in a SIGN & TRADE scenario for Jamal Crawford. Never going to happen. In sign & trades you traditionally get back a lot less than value because oftentimes the other team could simply sign him WITHOUT doing a s&t. We'd be more likely to get Rasual Butler. Maybe someone like Kurt Thomas at best. DOn't expect to get much back via sign & trade or you will likely be dissappointed.


Agreed. Pacers got Pollard back in their S&T for Miller. And Miller was an All-Star.


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