# Gary Payton to portland possibility even brighter now



## cimalee (Apr 17, 2003)

For those who think Gary is happy that his buddy sam is gone you are wrong.
Recently on the best damn sports show period , Gary said the only thing that would keep him to stay with the bucks is that he did not want to leave his guy sam.
Another thing since Sam is with the T wolves now, that means now t wolves are not going after Gary , now its down to the blazers and the lakers for Gp .
Come to Portland Gary , Come get sheed in check


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

The stars seem to be aligning to me too... I'm sure that Portland has pieces that are more intriguing to the Bucks then the Lakers do for possible S&Ts, and I don't see Gary signing an MLE. What would Milwalkee want back??? I'm guessing size... it's reported they also want to move TThomas because of his max contract and lethargic play, so maybe they'd be interested in Sabas's disappearing numbers? 

STOMP


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Sabas RP and Z-Bo


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Or Sabas and DD...

Then maybe we could lure Mourning in for the MLE.


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## cimalee (Apr 17, 2003)

I think Aaron Goodwin is been trying to do a sign and trade with both of his clients.
Damon Ruben and Da going to Mil for Gary and Tim Thomas.
I dont want Tim in return that would take time away from Qyntel.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

I'd be pretty hesitant to give up either Z-Bo or DD for Payton. I'd much rather offer some combination of pieces like Wells, Anderson, Stoudamire, McInnis, Patterson, and/or Boom-Boom if they've really gotta have some sort of a big man back. Surely with pieces like that *and* Sabas' cap relief something can be worked out.

I like the idea of adding Mourning but I'm not feeling very willing to count on his health. Using him 20 minutes or so a game behind Davis sounds about right to me.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

If we could get Payton and Thomas for Davis, Patterson and Stoudamire (do those salaries really match? Seems like Portland's salaries are higher), I'd do the deal.

I'd then go hard after PJ Brown with the mid-level exception to replace Davis, plus Thomas can do a little work at the power forward position, I suppose.

Payton is worth it. I wouldn't deal Randolph though...Payton is too near the end of his career.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

Tim Thomas, Anthony Mason, Marcus Haislip, Jason Caffey, Joe Smith. Now there's a team I want to hitch my wagon to. Without Payton, they win 18 games next year. With Payton, maybe 28. 

There is no way Payton stays in a Bucks uniform. The Bucks are fighting for the best lottery position, not finals contention.

Now all I need to hear is that Kidd has decided to go to the Spurs. If that happens, we almost certainly get Gary. If Kidd doesn't go there, my money is on Payton going to SA.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>cimalee</b>!
> I think Aaron Goodwin is been trying to do a sign and trade with both of his clients.
> Damon Ruben and Da going to Mil for Gary and Tim Thomas.
> I dont want Tim in return that would take time away from Qyntel.


I'm hesitant about Thomas for other reasons (such as work ethic and general attitude) but I'm not worried about Woods. Let's say that deal goes down. Then we'd have something like:

Payton/McInnis
Wells/Woods
Sheed/Thomas/(Woods)
Randolph/(Sheed)/(Thomas)
Davis/(Sheed)

While a touch weak at the the guard spots (maybe keep someone like Charles Smith around), that'd be an eight man rotation with quite a bit of flexibility. The unit would see rather a lot of Sheed with Thomas likely playing nearly starter's minutes and Woods getting fairly normal back-up minutes behind Wells with likely a few more minutes a game coming at SF.

That said, there'd almost certainly be other deals made but I'd be okay with that line-up to start the season in that shooting would be somewhat improved and more of the talent on the team would be concentrated in the starting five than in recent years.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

I'm against moving Rasheed, Bonzi, ZR or Qyntel for Payton.

Other than that, any combo of other players and goodies like future first rounders and cash ($3m is a lot to a poor team like the Bucks) and taking back any combo of players works for me except in extreme circumstances.

And, unless the Blazers have a line on another big guy (Kandi? 'Zo?) trading Davis would be painful because it would leave us with RBB and Rasheed as the only two guys who can potentially guard centers effectively.

It seems to me, though, that the Bucks are very well-positioned to offer Payton a ~3 year deal for big $ and have Ford back him up. I didn't think they were going to keep him, but I'd say the odds went up tremendously with this trade.

Ed O.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

That is what I was hearing/read today too. The Bucks made themselves very competitive for GP services. 

But if he does have issues with Sam I am leaving then he can force it, but signing with Milwaukee even in a S&T is his best $ bet...

I think dealing Damon and ? for Payton would be the best deal, but ...

You might even be able to deal Sabas $7.75 mill and McInnis $3.3 mill = $11.75 mill or

Sabas and Patterson $5.45 mill = $12.2 mill

with Sabas expiring contract it sheds some big money to Milwaukee, and the others are decent contract $

You would then give GP some decent money... $7-9 mill and give him 5 years maybe... with max money

This is not about equal talent, but getting a good deal $ for Milwaukee and GP


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## Anima (Jun 3, 2003)

Speaking of Sabas. Is his full salary tradable even though only half of it is guaranteed?


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Epadfield</b>!
> Speaking of Sabas. Is his full salary tradable even though only half of it is guaranteed?


It's not clear to me what percentage of it is guaranteed (I've heard half, I've heard none), but the amount that's guaranteed has no bearing on the alienability of a contract under the CBA.

Ed O.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>theWanker</b>!
> Tim Thomas, Anthony Mason, Marcus Haislip, Jason Caffey, Joe Smith. Now there's a team I want to hitch my wagon to.


They also have Desmond Mason, Michael Redd, and now TJ to stir the pot... and based on pure heresay I've heard Joel Pryzbilla is starting to look like an NBA center. Pretty mediocre collection of talent to be sure... I think it's very possible that they'd be looking for some cap relief to retool with. 

STOMP


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## Public Defender (May 5, 2003)

Seems to me, the Bucks have unloaded some age and size (EJ and Sam I Am) in exchange for somewhat dependable role players. Joe Smith can rebound and get you 10-12 points, and Anthony Peeler actually showed signs of play at both ends of the floor in this year's playoffs. But without Cassell, the Big Three is finally completely gone. 

Payton's not long for Milwaukee, and it'll be all about the M-O-N-E-Y. Portland can *definitely* offer the Bucks better pieces than LA, and probably better than what San Antonio would be willing to part with. I don't see the Spurs offering Ginobili, Rose, or Bowen... but I would see them dangling Danny Ferry and Steve Smith, or maybe Kevin Willis. Not enough to pull the trigger, IMHO, if I'm Milwaukee. Including Parker makes no sense - his salary is too small and his upside is still high. 

But, the Blazers could offer Stoudamire, Bonzi Wells, and Ruben Patterson (total of about $23 mil) for Tim Thomas ($9 mil), Payton, and a stiff... and immediately be giving the Bucks a solid point guard, one of the league's best young shooting guards, and a defensive stopper. Payton would have to be signed for pretty close to the max to make the salaries match (which wouldn't bother GP a bit). Make it a short-term deal, and the Blazers will be in contention. 

I could see the Bucks holding out for either Outlaw or Woods, though, to fill the hole at SF.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Public Defender</b>!
> the Blazers could offer Stoudamire, Bonzi Wells, and Ruben Patterson (total of about $23 mil) for Tim Thomas ($9 mil), Payton, and a stiff...


I doubt they are looking to add Wells and Patterson since they already have Mason and Redd... substituting Outlaw or next years #1 for Bonzi is more to their liking IMO... and I'll believe they get Damon to Milwalkee when I see it. I guess his inclusion is for taking Thomas's deal off their hands, and his numbers do mercifly clear in just two more years. Of course even with cap room, I don't know if Milwalkee is going to be attracting top level FA's. Maybe thats where MJ's supposive star power will come into play...

STOMP


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## The Enigma (May 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Schilly</b>!
> Or Sabas and DD...
> 
> Then maybe we could lure Mourning in for the MLE.


This I like...


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## The Enigma (May 10, 2003)

It seems to me that many people on this board (particularly) undervalue Tim Thomas.

Yes he has a bad contract, and he did not get along with Karl (who does), but he is a whole lot more tantalizing of a prospect to me than to many of you (apparently).

He is 6'10", a great ball handler, very athletic, well coordinated and a deadeye shooter from the outside. 
He is exactly what the Blazers need as their starting small forward.

He may be a contract throw-in in any potential Payton deal, but he is not chop liver (by any stretch of the imagination).
----------------

Another tantalizing fact about Thomas is that he absolutely kills the Lakers, Blazers and Mavs when he faces them.

Adding a player to your roster who traditionally plays well against two of your key rivals while also preventing him from terrorizing you is a win/ win on all fronts (IMO).


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Why would Payton go to Portland?

Especially when he can go home to Oakland or win a ring in LA. What in the world does Portland have to offer?


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Oh...you're referring to a sign and trade. I see.


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## Skelton (May 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> Why would Payton go to Portland?
> 
> Especially when he can go home to Oakland or win a ring in LA. What in the world does Portland have to offer?


Gee, let me guess...proximity to Seattle ring a bell? As far as I know, he hasn't moved his family from the area, and he could do the Schrempf thing and just commute during the season. This may or may not work for him, but it's probably a factor. 

Also, he can go to the team that would haunt Sonic management more than any other. 

Oh yeah, and Paul Allen is obscenely wealthy. He'd probably be taken care of. Just ask Scottie.

Just a few thoughts.


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## The Enigma (May 10, 2003)

Davis/ Sabonis/ Anderson and a future 1st...

_for_

Payton and Thomas...

... would be a good deal for both teams (IMO), _but this would require:_ 

1.) That the Blazers sign a center in the coming months. 

2.) That Payton decides not to return to the Bucks, forcing their hand in a sign and trade.

*Centers of choice *

- Olowakandi ? 
- Nesterovic ?
- Mourning ?

...or if push comes to shove Campbell (?).

-------------------------

That would leave the roster looking something like this:

Payton/ Stoudamire/ McInnis
Wells/ ??? 
Thomas/ Woods/ Outlaw
Wallace/ Randolph
???/ Rubin BB

...A trade to bring in a back up shooter or resigning either Pippen or Daniels would fill the vacant spot at our reserve guard position.

P.S. I personally do not see Payton returning to Milwaukee next season. 

At this stage in his career all that is left is to get paid (some more) and have the opportunity to win some hardware. I see him going after both options (not just going for a big payday on a mediocre team in the East). 

_...fortunately Portland has the assets and the resources to satisfy both._


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## The Enigma (May 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> That would leave the roster looking something like this:
> 
> Payton/ Stoudamire/ McInnis
> ...


Oops, I forgot Patterson.

Payton/ Stoudamire/ McInnis
Wells/ Woods 
Thomas/ Patterson/ Outlaw
Wallace/ Randolph
???/ Rubin BB

Own FA's

Pippen/ Daniels/ Smith


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## Goldmember (May 24, 2003)

That's way too much to give up for GP. He's on the downside of his career. He's not worth Dale Davis. You don't trade big for small, especially not our starting center.

Remember, the ball is in Gary's hands. If he _wants_ to come to Portland, then we don't have to give up the farm to get him. He sure as heck isn't going to want the team he's going to give up their top talent--when he has all the leverage. 

Personally, I don't think Gary is coming to Portland. I'm sure he'll choose LA if he doesn't stay with the Bucks. IMO, the only way he comes to Ptown is if Damon goes back to the Bucks, and I don't see them wanting any part of Damon's contract.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> Why would Payton go to Portland?
> 
> Especially when he can go home to Oakland or win a ring in LA. What in the world does Portland have to offer?


Seattle is still what he considers his home. Oakland is his roots, if anything.

Lakers offer him the best chance to win a ring.
Blazers offer him a chance, but a lesser one.
Warriors offer him no chance.

Blazers offer him a team near his home and family.
Warriors offer him a team near his roots.
Lakers offer him nothing, geographically.

Based on those two spectrums, I'd say the Blazers offer GP plenty of reason to sign there, if he decided to play for the MLE. The Blazers also probably can offer GP more money, by way of a seven year deal of which he only has to play, say, three or four years of and then can retire and Portland would pay him the remaining years anyway. It's a legal scheme (GP would still count against Portland's cap for all seven years), but Jerry Buss would be unlikely to pay millions to a player who's retired and I don't see the Warriors doing it either.

So cash points the Blazers' way, too. What does Portland offer, indeed.


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## Terrible (Jan 3, 2003)

Portland has no proven superstar and ZBO is still a year or two away from being that type of player. 

GP is older, no longer the best pure PG in the west, and he would like to win a ring Minstrel. If he's smart he goes to LA and gets it next year. It makes no sense for him to come here with the same old team and same old attitude for a little more money. 

GP should end it on a high note in LA. Kobe and Shaq can make it happen for him, Sheed can't! Sorry but that is the truth.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Terrible</b>!
> Sorry but that is the truth.


Nope, that's just your opinion, backed up by nothing more than anger and hatred for Wallace.

My opinion, at least, is backed up the reality of this past season. Portland was about as good as Dallas, in the playoffs, who was about as good as San Antonio. San Antonio, who won the title. Nothing much seperated the Blazers and the other teams in the West, in the playoffs.

Portland was already nearly on par with the champions and runners-up. Payton would upgrade Portland. Ergo, Portland would have a title chance with Payton.

Sorry. I know the idea of Portland winning a title with Rasheed Wallace pains you so.


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## ebott (Jan 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Terrible</b>!
> If he's smart he goes to LA and gets it next year.


So your definition of smart is to give up millions of dollars for years to come so that you can be rememberd as having won a ring or two while riding Shaq and Kobe's coat tails? Remember that he'd also have the joy of getting to move his family a thousand miles away from the home they've known and loved for the past 14 years. We have very different definitions of the word smart.

I think he would be smart to force a sign and trade here. He would be able to get his max salary thus getting about 7 mil more a year. He would be the unquestioned leader and goto guy. So instead of being thought of as a coat tail rider he'd be the savior that came in and fixed things. He also wouldn't have to move cause he could do the Seattle I-5 commute that we've come to expect from the Blazers with Allen and Whitsitt.

I also agree with Enigma that we're undervaluing Tim Thomas, who would fit in between Bonzi and Randolph very nicely. So much so that I'm thinkin we might need send them Sheed if we want GP and Thomas. I'm also feeling anti-sheed today. My hope with getting GP would be that he could help Sheed to be the player we all want him to be. But if Sheed wouldn't listen to Pippen I don't know that he'd necessarily listen to Gary. So with our back court over crowding added in I'd be glad to see a Sheed and DA for Gary and Thomas trade.


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## trifecta (Oct 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ebott</b>!
> 
> 
> So that you can be rememberd as having won a ring or two while riding Shaq and Kobe's coat tails?


That's pretty much my sentiments exactly regarding LA.

Yes, he would win a title but so would any of us if they put one of us on the Lakers. 

For most highly competitive people, the challenge is what adds value to the reward. I can't see going to LA and being a role player as being terribly appealing to a guy like GP.


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## Terrible (Jan 3, 2003)

Minstrel, you have a better shot of winning an NBA ring with GP than Sheed does. If your thinking that GP can do what Pip could not three years ago both at the same age, I think that's crazy. 

GP needs to be able to pass to a strong finisher and play D. Sheed will only space out on the court like years past and it would be a waste of a great player like GP. But we have gone over this a hundred times, haven't we?

If we had gotten Anthony with a trade of Sheed to Denver than I can see bringing in GP he'd have some young hungery guys around him, but look at the team GP would get as it stands. 

GP
DA "if healthy"
Bonzi "out of position so not as effective"
Sheed " when he shows up"
Dale " who is an undersized center in the west"

On the bench

Damon pissed off cause Cheeks said it was his team to run  

Zach yanked cause he can't stand watching Sheed coast through another game.

Q rotting hoping to get minutes

Boumtje looking for the same thing

Then we trade Patterson and AD walks. How does this make GP happy? Oh that's right he's 200 miles closer to his family.


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## runbmg (May 25, 2002)

Portland doesn't deserve Payton, I hope he goes to LA and smacks around the Jail Blazers all season. You guys have a big, dumb, rich owner who will never be able to buy himself a championship. Wallace a superstar? HA 


The worst thing about living in PDX is all the pathetic Failblazer fans!

Portland Trialblazers:rocket: 
This thread :cthread:


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Skelton</b>!
> 
> 
> Gee, let me guess...proximity to Seattle ring a bell? As far as I know, he hasn't moved his family from the area, and he could do the Schrempf thing and just commute during the season. This may or may not work for him, but it's probably a factor.


He would go to the Blazers because they're closer to Seattle? 

And if he only goes to Portland for the money...he can stay the hell out of LA.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

Here are some of my thoughts on Gary Payton and sign and trade possibilities:

I think money is a factor to Gary. If he gets a really big contract offer (ie $30mil or more), but only from one team, he will take it, no matter the team - even Golden State or Miami.

I think he would seriously consider offers from a lot of teams: Indiana, Miami, New York, San Antonio, Lakers, Golden State, Milwaukee, Portland, Dallas, Sacramento. When you work through it, getting rid of the teams that already have the point well covered, have luxury tax problems, etc., several drop out.

If the Blazers are not rebuilding (read: Trade Sheed this summer) - unknown at this point - they have the best shot at Payton - if they want him:

They have the excess talent and expiring contracts that make a deal feasable.

They have a willingness to pay top dollar for talent. They will offer the full MLE to Gary, risking paying for years he may be retired. Few other teams will make that commitment.

They allow Gary to keep his current home and not relocate his family.

He would instantly become the team leader and top dog.

If he did win a ring in Portland, he would likely recieve the lion's share of credit. That would not be the case at San Antonio and Lakers, where he would be labeled a coat-tailer. Does anyone remember that Glen Rice has a ring, and was the third leading scorer?

I have this feeling that Milwaukee secretly wants Payton to go. I think they are shedding big, long-term contracts. They want to get the financial house in order to make the sale "pencil out". Being well under the lux tax limit next year and getting a big rebate check will do wonders for their finances. They would happily keep Payton on a short-term, reasonable deal. But that wouldn't make him happy. 

If I am right about this, then they also would LOVE to dump Tim Thomas. He is an ok player. Not terrible, not great, but he would be the last big contract on the team.

It also means they only want small contracts coming back. Dale Davis 2 years $17mil, is probably too rich. Damon 2 years $30mil is way too rich.

It also means they are clearly in a rebuilding mode, and would consider youth/picks to be very valuable.

They would need PG's or C's. We only have McInnis and Boom Boom.

They have no need at all for any 2's - Derek or Bonzi. They already have that well covered.

Portland has needs too. Ruben Patterson has to go. And he can take Thomas' minutes in Milwaukee.

Milwaukee sends:

Gary Payton $7mil (resigned to a 5 year $47.2mil contract)
Tim Thomas $11.8mil - total $18.8mil

Portland sends:

Arvydas Sabonis $7.9mil
Ruben Patterson $5.5mil
Jeff McInnis $3.0mil
Ruben Bomjte $.7mil (resigned) - total $17.1mil
Travis Outlaw or a future 1st rounder
$3mil cash

If this deal occurred, Portland would be forced to let Pippen walk. Or, if he retires, he can be an assistant coach. Not because Tim takes his spot at the 3 because he is better, but because they can’t invest so much money in one position and they need a little salary relief. Portland still needs to work to move Damon. And they need to move either DA or Bonzi. Ideally, they get back big men.

PG: Payton
SG: Bonzi (or DA if traded)
SF: Thomas
PF: Sheed
C: Davis

Bench: DA, Zach, Q Woods, Center (from trade or FA) 

Unless Portland includes Zach Randolph, it looks really bad for Milwaukee, unless you see it for what it is - a MASSIVE salary dump. Course, they could stay stuck with Thomas' immovable contract and let Payton walk for nothing. Or they can hunt for a better deal. What would other teams be able to put together. Can the Knicks do anything good? How about the Pacers? I dunno, haven't looked into it. I know the Lakers can't put anything together. The Spurs could just sign him straight up, but I don't see them offering much money to Payton. $30mil tops. Probably not even that.

Portland better not include Zach. And they better not overpay Payton, or...or.... I will stomp my feet :upset: and hold my breath.


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

*whew..who let a stinker????*

1.Portland doesn't deserve Payton
2. I hope he goes to LA and smacks around the Jail Blazers all season. 
3.You guys have a big, dumb, rich owner who will never be able to buy himself a championship. 
4.Wallace a superstar? HA 
5.The worst thing about living in PDX is all the pathetic Failblazer fans!
6.Portland Trialblazers 

1. Deserve??
what in heck do you mean..deserve?? this isn't make a wish
for a dying child situation..
deserve???
THIS HAS TO BE ONE OF THE STUPID COMMENTS OF THE ENTIRE 
FORUM..

2.Yeah..let him go to Lakers..his gigantic ego should fit right in..
see yah!
But if there was ANY WAY WE COULD POSSIBLY....deserve...HIM.. welcome aboard..

3. YEP..I don't think he is as smart as he thinks he is..
but boy do we have fun year after year watching those guys
try..
DUH...you are measuring him "paying to win a championship"
oh,I see now..you mean those other owners in ALL THE SPORTS
IN EVERY CITY IN THE UNIVERSE don't have that at the top of the wishlist??
gosh,thanks for your wisdom..

4. Wallace ? a superstar?
Let's get this straight..
Wallace has to be in the top 10 of the entire NBA..maybe in the top 5..
ONLY ONE MAJOR PROBLEM..HE IS LIKE A BMW IN MY DRIVEWAY
WITHOUT AN ENGINE...it ain't doing me much good..

5. Yeah..it is pathetic..
I mean I am so miserable buying that NBA League Pass every
year watching hoops every single night..loving the game and guess what?????
WE ENJOY THE NBA...NOT JUST THE TRAILBLAZERS...
Frailblazers??? holy cow..if they can win 50 games as the FRAILBLAZERS,WHAT THE HELL WILL THEY DO IF THEY GET A SHOOTER??????????????????
60???
maybe..tune in..

6. Portland Trialblazers...
Now this is funny..
I will keep this one in my memory..
This is right up there with the Jackals..

 You just don't get it..
You are not a real fan of basketball..are you??
other wise you would understand that half the fun of the win 
is the getting there..


WIN OR LOSE I LOOK FORWARD TO EVERY SEASON WITH WIDE
EYED ENTHUSIASM..
I just love this team and that's the simplicity of it..


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: whew..who let a stinker????*



> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> 
> WIN OR LOSE I LOOK FORWARD TO EVERY SEASON WITH WIDE
> EYED ENTHUSIASM..
> I just love this team and that's the simplicity of it..


Breaking news: jackiejackal and Ed O. agree on something...

Details at 11.

Ed O.


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## Public Defender (May 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Masbee</b>!
> 
> Milwaukee sends:
> 
> ...


Masbee, this strikes me as sort of a "everybody we've got that we can or want to get rid of for the two guys you've got who are worth something" kind of a trade. I just don't see the Blazers getting the Bucks to bite on a trade for Payton and Thomas without including Bonzi Wells, Derek Anderson, or Zach Randolph. 

The Blazers want DA to be their "model citizen," so he's not going. Randolph has too much untapped potential, so he won't go. Bonzi, though, is extraneous if the Blazers can get Thomas to play SF and DA can hold down the SG position. Plus, Bonzi is "part of the problem" if you ask the fans who are concerned about character. I could see the Bucks passing on the two Rubens and taking Bonzi, instead. That would give Milwaukee some cap room (with Sabas retiring), a point guard (McInnis), a capable swingman (Bonzi), some frontcourt depth (Boumtje-Boumtje), and "one to grow on" (Outlaw).


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Terrible</b>!
> Minstrel, you have a better shot of winning an NBA ring with GP than Sheed does. If your thinking that GP can do what Pip could not three years ago both at the same age, I think that's crazy.


Ahhhh feel the Sheed hate... it's ripening with age like cheese in an armpit. You know who else you disagree with Terrible??? According to his agent, you disagree with Gary Payton himself. Gary is not the player he once was, but he's still a whole lot better then anyone they have here now, and they haven't been half bad without him. Supposively one of the main reasons he wants to be in Portland is the chance to play with Rasheed Wallace. The only downside to adding Payton to this same basic club that I can see is that we'll be continuing these same "Wallace Sucks" threads for at least another year. I can't wait untill we do turn the roster over so people can start hating someone else. 

...and since you've apparently forgotten, Pip had Portland in position to advance to the finals before he dislocated two fingers in game 6 of the WCF. Game 7 he was all left hand and didn't shoot. Injuries happen to all players and are a part of sports, but I wouldn't list a season that ends with an injury as failing, thats just the nature of things sometimes.

BTW, I think Tim Thomas would be a great addition to Portland's potencial starting lineup as well. Payton and him would provide outside shooting balance to their attack...

Payton
Wells
Thomas
Randolph
Wallace

bench- Davis, PIP, Woods, DA

deep bench- Damon, Boom boom, ?

STOMP


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Public Defender</b>!
> Masbee, this strikes me as sort of a "everybody we've got that we can or want to get rid of for the two guys you've got who are worth something" kind of a trade.


Except this trade would allow them to start with a clean finacial slate to select new FA's with. Yes Thomas is a good player, but he makes the $ of a perenial all-star. There are other guys who produce as much who could be had for less if you have the cap room. 

If they wanted Bonzi instead of Patterson, I'd still be for it. 

STOMP


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

*haha*

:yes:


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## Public Defender (May 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>STOMP</b>!
> 
> Except this trade would allow them to start with a clean finacial slate to select new FA's with. Yes Thomas is a good player, but he makes the $ of a perenial all-star. There are other guys who produce as much who could be had for less if you have the cap room.
> 
> ...


True, they'd have a "clean financial slate," but so do the Nuggets. The goal is to balance key players with cap room - in the way the Spurs are doing it, and the Magic did it a few years back. You could have all the cap room in the world (ahem, Chicago), and the best you're going to do is get a second-tier player (Ron Mercer). Good players want to know they won't be on the hook to do it all themselves. And a core of little more than the two Masons and some role players like Anthony Peeler, Joe Smith, and Ruben Patterson isn't going to be much of a draw. Money helps, but some talented teammates helps, too. 

Also, I noticed that on one hand I had the Bucks passing on Boumtje and in the next sentence I mentioned them taking him. I guess I don't see BB making or breaking the deal. But I could see an inclusion of Bonzi instead of Patterson clinching it. Milwaukee is a family market, and I have a hard time seeing them accepting the guy with the sexual assault in his past. Plus, Bonzi is a capable defender and a far more versatile scorer - a more reliable replacement for Payton's points than Patterson. 

I'd be inclined to do that trade, too, STOMP - Sabas, McInnis, Wells, Outlaw, and possibly Boumtje-Boumtje for Payton and Thomas.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Public Defender</b>!
> You could have all the cap room in the world (ahem, Chicago), and the best you're going to do is get a second-tier player (Ron Mercer).


Thats only one example, and a lot of factors led to Chicago only being able to sign Ron Mercer. Every offseason brings a different set of dynamics to the free agent market. Certainly a franchise taking the cut payrole to rebuild route is rolling the dice. But Milwalkee's moves are also motivated by a changing of ownership, and clearing the books of big contracts has been their reported mode for a year now prior to sending Robinson, Allen, and Cassell packing for lesser deals. Thomas is the last big contract left, and Karl had Kukoc starting over him to close out last season. JMO, but if I'm in Milwalkee's spot choosing between Bonzi and Patterson, I'm probably going with Rube because he fills their needs for another forward. Bonzi is more of a two, and they've got two competent twos already.

STOMP


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## Terrible (Jan 3, 2003)

For the record I don't hate Sheed, I've defended his lazy arss for years on the other board, but Sheed is like a fine, fine, fine, fine, wine that you can't for some reason uncork. 

If he produces this year, it will disgust me, not because he's as good as I think he is, but because the only reason he's doing it is so he can get a huge payday the following year. Doesn't that bother any of you that he would have tanked it this long? Am I the only one on this board that has a problem with a player coasting till his has to play for big pay? 

How many rings could Portland have won if Sheed had taken his job as serious as he's doing now for the big bucks?


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Public Defender</b>!
> 
> Masbee, this strikes me as sort of a "everybody we've got that we can or want to get rid of for the two guys you've got who are worth something" kind of a trade. I just don't see the Blazers getting the Bucks to bite on a trade for Payton and Thomas without including Bonzi Wells, Derek Anderson, or Zach Randolph.


Several points: 

1) I had the same reaction you did as I was working thru both rosters and working up the deal, it wasn't as WIN-WIN as I had hoped, and you know what - TOUGH TOOHOOTIES FOR THE BUCKS!

Do they want to sell the team or not?
Do they want to fix the horrible lux tax mess George Karl and Ernie Grundfeld got them in or not?
If they don't like the deal - fine - forget it.

2) "for the two guys youve got who are worth something" referring to Gary Payton and Tim Thomas.

Well - first of all Gary is an unrestricted Free Agent. They DONT "have" him. So their leverage in a trade for him is limited when Gary's market value IMO is unlikely to be more than $40mil - ($50mil tops) contract and the Blazer's (or many other teams) could offer him a $45mil contract with their MLE. Since they don't "own" Gary, they aren't going to get a whole lot for him in a trade.

As to Tim Thomas, I disagree that he is worth that much. He is an ok player, with a nice shooting stroke, but he is pillowy soft, and disappears for quarters, games and sometimes months at a time. If there were a draft of the Bucks players today, I would pick in this order: TJ Ford, Desmond Mason, Michael Redd, Tim Thomas. In my mind that makes him far from their 2nd best player. Then, when you add that Tim Thomas has one of the worst remaining contracts based on performance in the NBA - his trade value is near ZERO, if not actually negative.

From a financial management perspective, assuming they didn't get any better cap clearing offers from any other teams, if Payton told them he isn't coming back no matter what they do, and if Portland put this offer on the table, they lunge at it. The only thing that would keep them from pulling the trigger would be the fan backlash PR problems of making an "unfair" trade.

3) Bonzi Wells. I am not averse to shipping Bonzi out for the right deal/player. This does not qualify. Bonzi is a 2/3. The Bucks have Michael Redd at the 2 & Desmond Mason at the 2/3. They don't have much need for Bonzi. Ruben Patterson is actually a better fit on the floor for them as a 3/4 energy bench player.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Public Defender</b>!
> And a core of little more than the two Masons and some role players like Anthony Peeler, Joe Smith, and Ruben Patterson isn't going to be much of a draw. Money helps, but some talented teammates helps, too.


Cute. But if the Bucks continue to dump all their long contracts - only one left Tim Thomas - their core is:

TJ Ford - PG
Michael Redd (SG)
Desmond Mason (SF)

so they have 1 thru 3 working. They still need to get a couple of big guys.
Peeler's contract is a team option. Bucks will not exercise.
Joe Smith was a throw in in a salary dump motivated trade. They didn't peg him as a "core" guy. As would be Ruben Patterson if they did the trade.

Tony Kukoc is in his final year, then his $ is off the books. Then in 2 years Anthony Mason is off the books. They won't be considered "core".


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

Mitch Lawrence reported on ESPN radio yesterday that the Bucks are in salary dumping mode. They have absolutely no intentions of resigning Payton. They also do not want to do a sign and trade with anyone. They will let Payton walk. If that's the case. He's walking right to LA. His only options would be to sign with a team that has cap space, but no chance of winning. Or take the MLE from the Lakers. Stephen A. Smith reported the same thing on Fox Sports Network.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> Mitch Lawrence reported on ESPN radio yesterday that the Bucks are in salary dumping mode. They have absolutely no intentions of resigning Payton. They also do not want to do a sign and trade with anyone. They will let Payton walk. If that's the case. He's walking right to LA. His only options would be to sign with a team that has cap space, but no chance of winning. Or take the MLE from the Lakers. Stephen A. Smith reported the same thing on Fox Sports Network.


Portland could send Sabonis + a future pick for a re-signed Payton. The Bucks then cut Payton and are in the same shape financially as before (since Sabas's contract is reportedly not guaranteed) and they come out ahead by having a future draft pick.

To think that the Lakers (a) will be willing to spend as much of the MLE (in terms of years and therefore total dollars) as the Blazers, and (b) are the only team other than those with cap space who can make a run at him are ideas that I find hard to believe.

Ed O.


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## Terrible (Jan 3, 2003)

I'd like to see GP team up with Tmac in Orlando. He could get the Magic over the hump. I think he'd also be a good fit in Boston along with Pierce. He'd for sure get one of those teams deep into the playoff race in the east.


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

The Lakers could send Horry(5.3mil) + Slava(1.5mil)=6.8mil and a future #1 to the Bucks for Payton as well. Sabonis makes 7mil. So the difference in salary would not be much at all. And the Bucks would be receiving ending deals as well. 

Payton loves Los Angeles. He has a studio here. He's here every summer. He's on record saying he wants to play with a big man. Shaq and Kobe are on record saying they want Payton in LA. Payton was seen with Buss at the Lewis fight the other night. Payton has stated numerous times he believes he would be a perfect fit in Los Angeles. His Vegas home is just a 45min flight away. He would be *needed* here. His chances of winning a title playing with an in shape and motivated Shaq, and playing with Kobe would increase tremendously.

The fact is, the Lakers stand on even ground with everyone now. If the Bucks are indeed looking to dump salary, the Lakers are sitting pretty. The Bucks were the only team that could offer GP big bucks. Now that option appears to be gone. If GP is going for only the MLE, the Lakers are at the top of the list, IMO. No other team could offer him more.(lets not forget endorsement deals come with playing in a big market like LA) Unless he wants to play in Denver,with the Clipps, or Utah. Those are the only places he will get paid big $$$. Thats why i like the Lakers chances.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> The fact is, the Lakers stand on even ground with everyone now. If the Bucks are indeed looking to dump salary, the Lakers are sitting pretty. The Bucks were the only team that could offer GP big bucks. Now that option appears to be gone. If GP is going for only the MLE, the Lakers are at the top of the list, IMO. No other team could offer him more.(lets not forget endorsement deals come with playing in a big market like LA) Unless he wants to play in Denver,with the Clipps, or Utah. Those are the only places he will get paid big $$$. Thats why i like the Lakers chances.


I won't deny that the Lakers are one of the top choices for him... I was getting the sense that you thought it was either the Bucks or the Lakers, with no other realistic options.

And the difference between the Blazers sending Sabas and other teams sending their players (other than the Wolves with Brandon) is that his salary comes off THIS season, not next. The Bucks would end up paying Horry and Medvendenko for 03-04, when they could just pick up free agents to fill the roster spot(s), so the team would save like $6m by taking Sabas in sign and trade. That's a lot of money to a team like the Bucks.

Ed O.


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

I may be mistaken, and if so, please correct me. But doesnt Sabonis have a 7mil team option? If thats the case, the Bucks would just not pick up the option, correct? Now if that is the case, Horry has a 5.3mil team option as well. So if the Bucks would not pick up the option on Sabonis, couldnt they do the same thing with Horry?

Slava's deal is only for 1.5mil. Slava may not seem like much in the west where all the big boys play. But in the East he would be a very effective scorer. And cheap, with an ending deal. So in essence, wouldnt the bucks STILL be saving close to 6mil if they did the deal with the Lakers as well?


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> I may be mistaken, and if so, please correct me. But doesnt Sabonis have a 7mil team option? If thats the case, the Bucks would just not pick up the option, correct? Now if that is the case, Horry has a 5.3mil team option as well. So if the Bucks would not pick up the option on Sabonis, couldnt they do the same thing with Horry?


If the option on Horry is not picked up, he can't be traded. If it is, he counts against the salary cap this year.

Sabonis reportedly does not have a contract that's guaranteed money, meaning that he can be traded, count as ~$7m and then be cut before August 15 and not have his salary count against the salary cap. I'm not 100% sure the reports are accurate, but if so then it's an advantage for the Blazers because there aren't that many players with non-guaranteed contracts (I remembed Rony Seikaly had one several years ago, but none other come to mind).

Ed O.


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## runbmg (May 25, 2002)

It comes down to this... Gary Payton is going to either PDX, or LA.

The two teams I hate the most are, PDX, and LA


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>runbmg</b>!
> It comes down to this... Gary Payton is going to either PDX, or LA.
> 
> The two teams I hate the most are, PDX, and LA


and damnit, if you're a Sonics fan, thats how it's supposed to be!


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

looks like the Bucks are no longer for sale. http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2003/0629/1574415.html

who knows what this means for Payton.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

The part of that article that I thought was pertainent to them resigning Payton at a max level deal...

-"Kohl, who bought the Bucks from Jim Fitzgerald for $18 million on March 1, 1985, was believed to be asking for $170 million, according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.

The newspaper reported Sunday that local investors were balking at the high price. 

"The numbers are ugly," one prominent Milwaukee-area businessman told the Journal Sentinel. "Their revenue streams are going south, and there is a huge negative cash flow."

STOMP


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

No. Not so. Payton is a huge star among hardcore basketball fans, but is a minor draw among the casual fans. They know his name, but don't consider it a hot ticket like Kobe, Vince Carter and Allen Iverson.

Payton has not in his career been a big draw all by himself. Neither has Jason Kidd, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajwon and many others.

If a team pays big money to players like that it is because they want to win, and are counting on a winning team filling the seats. I don't see Milwaukee overpaying Payton thinking he will fill the stadium. He won't. They might pay him more than any other team (but not MAX - and whatever they pay him will be limited by what they can do and still stay under the lux tax) if they are being defensive minded when dealing with their existing season ticket holders. They will have a certain percentage of defections if they in essense traded the BIG THREE for Toni Kukoc, Joe Smith and Desmond Mason no matter how they try to spin that.


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## Swoosh (May 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> Payton was seen with Buss at the Lewis fight the other night.


Wouldn't this be considered tampering??? I think we should notify the league office  .


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## Storyteller (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> The Lakers could send Horry(5.3mil) + Slava(1.5mil)=6.8mil and a future #1 to the Bucks for Payton as well. Sabonis makes 7mil. So the difference in salary would not be much at all. And the Bucks would be receiving ending deals as well.


First of all, since the Lakers don't seem to be picking up Horry's option (at least according to Horry), they can't.

Secondly, as *Ed O* mentioned, your deal gives the Bucks $7 million in salary this year that they don't want or need. The Blazer deal gives them no extra salary and a draft pick. That's much more tempting - given the Bucks' financial position this coming year (they're just below estimates for the Team Escrow Limit and don't want to go over that level and have to pay tax).


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## Storyteller (Dec 31, 2002)

FWIW -

The Bucks signed TJ Ford today. Meaning that he cannot be traded until December at the earliest.

They could still plan on keeping Payton - but they definitely plan on keeping Ford.


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## runbmg (May 25, 2002)

I don't know what's worse, a So Cal Blazer fan, or a Pac-NW Laker fan!!!


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## ebott (Jan 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>runbmg</b>!
> I don't know what's worse, a So Cal Blazer fan, or a Pac-NW Laker fan!!!


The only thing I can think of that's more disgusting than that is a Portland living Sonics fan.


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## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

*Re: whew..who let a stinker????*



> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> 4. Wallace ? a superstar?
> Let's get this straight..
> Wallace has to be in the top 10 of the entire NBA..maybe in the top 5..
> ...








WaLLace is neither in the top 10 nor top 5 in the League...Top twenty, maybe, you are too "high" on this guy........


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