# I'm suprised at the NBA.com poll



## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

I thought more people would have chosen Milwaukee seeing as they've beaten us twice. Detroid isn't as big of a threat, haven't we beat them 3 times?


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> I thought more people would have chosen Milwaukee seeing as they've beaten us twice. Detroid isn't as big of a threat, haven't we beat them 3 times?


Well, you beat them three times without Rasheed Wallace. Granted you beat us three times, but Rasheed is a pretty important factor.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

For some reason, NBA.com takes me to the british airways homepage these days. What is the poll for? If its for who we dont want to face in the playoffs, I would much rather destroy the Bucks than struggle against the Pistons.


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## PistonFAN81 (May 30, 2003)

Yeah but we played crappy against you guys, it wasn't like you guys dominated us...we beat our selves alot of the time


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

The Pistons are a different team now, with incredible defense. Five straight opponents held under 70 points...that's crazy. I think the Pacers will come out of the East, but Detroit will give them fits with the defense. Jermaine will have his hands full down low with the Wallace's, so Artest will have to come up big for the Pacers to win. This matchup likely will happen in the Conference Finals, and will be Indiana's biggest obstacle en route to the Finals IMO.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

If it doesn't happen in the conference finals it won't happen seeing as how the teams are just about guaranteed the 1 and 3 seeds.

Right now Detroit is playing better basketball than Indiana. Rasheed Wallace is an enormous addition to the team, and even the game they lost without him to Indy were due to 4th quarter breakdowns. It's not like there was a huge gap Detroit had to make up to begin with.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

Detroit has not been playing better basketball. Indiana is 9-2 in the last 11 games 8 and 2 in the last 10.

Anyway, Milwaukee obiously has our number better than the Pistons, which is why I am suprised at the poll.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Detroit has now won 5 in a row by a combined 116 points. They aren't just beating teams, they are destroying them. It's funny that you mention Indy being 9-2 in the last 11, because that is the Pistons record with Rasheed Wallace as a full time player. The Pistons are a very different team with Sheed, it's just not accurate to say that Indiana has their number based on three games played pre-trade.

Before Rasheed Wallace, the Pistons lived and died with the outside shooting of Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton, they couldn't win if they shot bad, and the two have had horrible games all 3 times the two teams have played. With Sheed, Chauncey and Rip have had to worry less about shooting and are able to just be a part of the offense. Chauncey's role in particular has completely shifted, he is hardly even looking to score anymore and is just dishing off assists left and right. The Pistons are a completely different team then what you've seen so far, and they are starting to pull it together and peak at the right time of the season.


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## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Detroit has now won 5 in a row by a combined 116 points. They aren't just beating teams, they are destroying them. It's funny that you mention Indy being 9-2 in the last 11, because that is the Pistons record with Rasheed Wallace as a full time player. The Pistons are a very different team with Sheed, it's just not accurate to say that Indiana has their number based on three games played pre-trade.
> 
> Before Rasheed Wallace, the Pistons lived and died with the outside shooting of Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton, they couldn't win if they shot bad, and the two have had horrible games all 3 times the two teams have played. With Sheed, Chauncey and Rip have had to worry less about shooting and are able to just be a part of the offense. Chauncey's role in particular has completely shifted, he is hardly even looking to score anymore and is just dishing off assists left and right. The Pistons are a completely different team then what you've seen so far, and they are starting to pull it together and peak at the right time of the season.


Detriot is different with Rasheed but stop making it sound like Detriot traded for Bryant, Rasheed and Kidd. You are a different team that NEEDED to upgrade to get to our level. Detriot and Indiana were not at the same level before the Wallace deal. 

Without Wallace, we had pretty much no problems with you guys. Now, with Wallace, the two teams are much closer to being EVEN then anything else. I don't see Detriot being a better team right now because of Wallace. 

I think people forget and think Detriot was even with Indiana before the trade and Rasheed made them that much better. That is not the case, and only a Detriot fan thinks that way. Indiana was well ahead of Detriot and now with Rasheed there, we're pretty much even. 

Oviously anything can happen in the playoffs. Without Rasheed you guys would have been 5 games and out with us. Now, it's probably going to take 6 very hard fought games or even go 7. Who's gonna win? Way too hard to tell. Which ever team brings their "A" game will win the series, noone player will win the series for anyone.

And it's nice to know Detriot is "peaking" at the right time because Indiana has been "peaking" since the first day of the season and well..... we're still "peaking" even though you guys guarneteed we'd go on like 5 slumps by now but i'm still waiting....


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

I don't think Detroit was ever a level below Indiana in talent, only in the way they were playing. That's a coaching thing mostly. Larry Brown asks guys to do things they are not used to doing in order to make them better players in the long run, which is why Larry Brown teams always play their best basketball at the end of the season and in the playoffs.

In my experience with Rick Carlisle however, he is a great regular season coach because he gets his guys playing their best ball almost from day one. When it comes to the playoffs though, it really doesn't matter how you played all year as long as you are peaking at the end. Remember last year the Pistons nearly swept the Nets in the season series and look how that turned out in the playoffs.

I haven't said anything bad about Indiana, I'm just saying Rasheed Wallace has improved Detroit about as much as one player possibly could. It's almost night and day the way the team looks since the trade. My whole point is if you think Indiana has Detroit's number based on a couple games played at the start of the season, you are in for a rude awakening.


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## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> I don't think Detroit was ever a level below Indiana in talent, only in the way they were playing. That's a coaching thing mostly. Larry Brown asks guys to do things they are not used to doing in order to make them better players in the long run, which is why Larry Brown teams always play their best basketball at the end of the season and in the playoffs.
> 
> In my experience with Rick Carlisle however, he is a great regular season coach because he gets his guys playing their best ball almost from day one. When it comes to the playoffs though, it really doesn't matter how you played all year as long as you are peaking at the end. Remember last year the Pistons nearly swept the Nets in the season series and look how that turned out in the playoffs.
> ...


I don't buy that at all. Not that i am saying it's impossible for Detriot to beat Indiana, but you're way looking too much into things. You're basicially saying Rasheed makes Detriot a huge power and Indiana got lucky vs Detriot? Jermaine O'Neal is a super star and Ron Artest is very close to being a super star. Sorry, but Rasheed Wallace is far from a super star and Ben Wallace is a super star. 

I love how you guys still mock Carlisle. If Carlisle is a failure because of his playoffs, what makes you think Larry Brown will lead Detriot to the finals? Do you know how many times Brown had awsome Indiana teams and failed in the playoffs or with Philly? 

I'v never heard more biased arguements from any one teams fanbase then i do from Detriot. Keep talking and keep dreaming is all i gotta say. I could start with biased arguements too but i think we're all too mature for that. 

What you're writing is like is saying, "Indiana will kill Detriot because Tinsley will tear Billups up" and backing it up with BS comments.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MillerTime</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't buy that at all. Not that i am saying it's impossible for Detriot to beat Indiana, but you're way looking too much into things. You're basicially saying Rasheed makes Detriot a huge power and Indiana got lucky vs Detriot? Jermaine O'Neal is a super star and Ron Artest is very close to being a super star. Sorry, but Rasheed Wallace is far from a super star and Ben Wallace is a super star.
> ...


I didn't take that out of Mike's post at all.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MillerTime</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't buy that at all. Not that i am saying it's impossible for Detriot to beat Indiana, but you're way looking too much into things. You're basicially saying Rasheed makes Detriot a huge power and Indiana got lucky vs Detriot? Jermaine O'Neal is a super star and Ron Artest is very close to being a super star. Sorry, but Rasheed Wallace is far from a super star and Ben Wallace is a super star.


Looking to much into things? The Pistons added a guy at the trade deadline who has become the best player on the team. That is a significant makeover to the team and it is a BIG difference.

You call me biased but then say Artest is close to a superstar but Sheed is far from it? Sheed has a better overall floor game than Artest, and I'm not just saying that. I would never have known it if I didn't get to watch him play every night, but Sheed is one of THE smartest basketball players in the NBA. I know it's completely contradictory of the image the media portrays, but just does everything well. It's not like he just gives the Pistons a low post threat or another defender, his impact has been fealt in every single column of the box score, he just does everything. And most importantly, he makes his teammates better.



> I love how you guys still mock Carlisle. If Carlisle is a failure because of his playoffs, what makes you think Larry Brown will lead Detriot to the finals? Do you know how many times Brown had awsome Indiana teams and failed in the playoffs or with Philly?


I must have missed the part where I mocked Carlisle. I know I said he was a great regular season coach because he gets his team playing their best ball very early. Don't really see how that's mocking him.



> I'v never heard more biased arguements from any one teams fanbase then i do from Detriot. Keep talking and keep dreaming is all i gotta say. I could start with biased arguements too but i think we're all too mature for that.


I'm biased because I think Rasheed Wallace makes Detroit a vastly better team than they were earlier in the season? But hey, I guess I'm just basing all of this off of BS like actually watching the team play.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> For some reason, NBA.com takes me to the british airways homepage these days.


The same thing happens to me sometimes, either british airways or shotathome.net:uhoh:


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Looking to much into things? The Pistons added a guy at the trade deadline who has become the best player on the team. That is a significant makeover to the team and it is a BIG difference.
> ...


I'll just say Rasheed could be a superstar, but he doesn't seem to want that role, he would rather be a semi-star. Overall he is a better offensive player than Artest, but no where near the caliber of a defender that Artest is.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Which I think was a big part of his problem in Portland. They wanted him to be that dominant go to 20/10 guy, but that's not who he is. He can be the best player on a team, but he's not the type of guy you just dump the ball into on the block and just wait for him to do something. In Detroit nobody is looking at him to be their savior which has allowed him to just fit in and do what he does- which is play a complete total floor game within a team as opposed to BEING the team.

As for Sheed vs Artest on defense. It's kind of apples to oranges, Sheed is one of the best post defenders in the league, Ron is one of the best perimeter defenders. Ron forces more turnovers, Sheed changes/blocks more shots. I do know that since Sheed has come to Detroit their oppenents ppg has dropped dramatically, we're talking from 87 ppg pretrade to 75.5 ppg with Sheed.

Of course that's not all Sheed's doing, man defense isn't anywhere near as important as team defense and it's the Wallace's as a duo that are responsible for the defense and not just Sheed. You know, the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts type of thing.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> For some reason, NBA.com takes me to the british airways homepage these days. What is the poll for? If its for who we dont want to face in the playoffs, I would much rather destroy the Bucks than struggle against the Pistons.


It does that to me too. Glad to see us Pistons and Pacers fans back to our old ways, it's much better this way. :yes: 

Millertime, I don't think you should be calling anyone out on overvaluing or undervaluing a team, it wasn't long ago that Detroit was "a mediocre team" in your eyes. 


I too don't think we were that much behind Indiana and I'm just looking at our head to head matchups. There's no doubt Indy has played better over the course of the season, arguing that would be foolish, but in our head to head matchups I don't think you guys have outplayed us by that much. The Pacers victories were by 2 points, 5 points, and 12 points. Like Mike said a big problem for us was our guard play. Rip and Chauncey have played terrible against Indiana this year in *every* game and I wouldn't directly correlate to Indiana. I think it was due more to our lack of an inside presence than you guys guard's defense. With Sheed here now, I don't see it being that big of a problem. On top of that we now have a minimum of four guys we can throw at O'neal (Wallace's, Okur, Campbell) in our efforts to slow him down. I'm not downplaying Indiana in any type of way, they're one of the top teams in the league and would be far from easy to defeat over the course of a seven game series.

Below is the box scores from the three games we've played so far this season.

Game 1 

Game 2 

Game 3


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> It does that to me too. Glad to see us Pistons and Pacers fans back to our old ways, it's much better this way. :yes:
> ...


:yes: 

I can agree with everything said.

We can all argue all we want, but until we face each other for the eastern finals, which I assume we will, arguing and speculation will get us nowhere.


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Which I think was a big part of his problem in Portland. They wanted him to be that dominant go to 20/10 guy, but that's not who he is. He can be the best player on a team, but he's not the type of guy you just dump the ball into on the block and just wait for him to do something. In Detroit nobody is looking at him to be their savior which has allowed him to just fit in and do what he does- which is play a complete total floor game within a team as opposed to BEING the team.
> 
> As for Sheed vs Artest on defense. It's kind of apples to oranges, Sheed is one of the best post defenders in the league, Ron is one of the best perimeter defenders. Ron forces more turnovers, Sheed changes/blocks more shots. I do know that since Sheed has come to Detroit their oppenents ppg has dropped dramatically, we're talking from 87 ppg pretrade to 75.5 ppg with Sheed.
> ...


Agreed, I thought that was part of his problem in Portland, he doesn't want to be "The Franchise" for a team, he'd rather play his role, which is rare to find in a player. That's true about the defensive theories, Artest guards wing players while Sheed guards people in the posts. Jermaine O'Neal works as one of our post defenders though because if Artest gets beat then O'Neal and Foster are down low to take care of business. I agree that team D can be much more important than one on one defense. It depends on the team and who they have though.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

What it comes down to, is does Rasheed Wallace help Detroit against Indiana or not. The answer, of course, is not. Do you really think Jermaine can't manhandle Rasheed?! Is Rip suddenly going to be able to beat Artest? No. Will Billups suddenly be better than Tinsley? No. Can Foster handle Big Ben? Good enough for our needs. Will Okur beat us, maybe, but I wouldn't like to think so.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> What it comes down to, is does Rasheed Wallace help Detroit against Indiana or not. The answer, of course, is not. Do you really think Jermaine can't manhandle Rasheed?! Is Rip suddenly going to be able to beat Artest? No. Will Billups suddenly be better than Tinsley? No. Can Foster handle Big Ben? Good enough for our needs. Will Okur beat us, maybe, but I wouldn't like to think so.


You're funny...

1. Rasheed doesn't help Detroit ?!?!? Ok...

2. JO does well aganst *everyone*, he's one of the best forwards in the league. But defensively Sheed is one of the best forwards in the league.

3. Artest doesn't even guard Rip. Reggie does.

4. Tinlsey better than Billups? Let it go... :laugh: 

5. Foster handling Wallace... almost as blasphemous as your "claim" that having Sheed doesn't help us.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> 3. Artest doesn't even guard Rip. Reggie does.
> ...


I don't know why Artest wouldn't guard Rip.

Even you have to admit that Tinsley has improved, he's a better passer than Billups and has improved his shooting skills, i can see them as about equals. 

Ben isn't too much of an offensive threat but Foster can outhustle him and is close to being as good a rebounder.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> What it comes down to, is does Rasheed Wallace help Detroit against Indiana or not. The answer, of course, is not. Do you really think Jermaine can't manhandle Rasheed?! Is Rip suddenly going to be able to beat Artest? No. Will Billups suddenly be better than Tinsley? No. Can Foster handle Big Ben? Good enough for our needs. Will Okur beat us, maybe, but I wouldn't like to think so.


:whatever: 

I'm speechless. Absolutely ludicrous.


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## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

i see the matchup between the pistons and the pacers as being a very very close one.

i think the deciding factor is ron artest and al harrington...

when u look at the 4/5 spots u see foster/o'neal and wallace x 2... which i think is very balanced, o'neals the best player here, but foster is far and away the worst player out of these four. at the 1 and 2 spots you see reggie and tinsley against rip and billups...on offense u need to watch out for billups late in, he is clutch, just like reggie...on defense your gonna see artest guarding rip however the way rip plays i dont know how artest will be.

at the three spot i see indiana having the advantage...artest and harrington are both good scorers and excellent defenders...i wouldnt be surprised if carslisle put ron at 2 for a while and had a line up of

tinsley
artest
harrington
o'neal
foster

to try and handle detroit...all in all i think that if we do meet in the post season each game will b close and a good one.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't know why Artest wouldn't guard Rip.


Because he hasn't all year. If Artest covered Rip, Tayshaun would hook his little lefty floater over Reggie all day.



> Even you have to admit that Tinsley has improved, he's a better passer than Billups and has improved his shooting skills, i can see them as about equals.


Tinsley has improved since the begining of the year, but he is still the same player as he was as a rookie. Billups has almost identical assist numbers and is a much better scorer. They're not equals, they're not even close. Billups got serious all star consideration and Tinsley has struggled to simply be in the lineup most of the year.



> Ben isn't too much of an offensive threat but Foster can outhustle him and is close to being as good a rebounder.


Simply, no and no.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> You're funny...
> ...


1. Read the post, Sheed helps them, but not that much against the Pacers.

3. I'll let your fellow Piston fan answer that one:



> Artest covered Rip, Tayshaun would hook his little lefty floater over Reggie all day.


 4. Tinsley was better than Billups (See the topic, where I used strait up facts and evidence to prove this), and he has improved greatly this year as well.

5. Foster can handle Duncan, I'm sure Big Ben will be no problem. You know why? You're in luck, I'll tell you. Foster is a beast on the boards, as is Wallace. Thus, they cancel each other out. Wallace has the muscle advantage, but Foster always seems to get the inside on the boards.


de Finis: The X factor for Detroit is Okur. He's streaky and is capable of getting a lot of 2nd chance points.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Because he hasn't all year. Artest covered Rip, Tayshaun would hook his little lefty floater over Reggie all day.


You think Reggie plays the majority of the game? Al averages more minutes and his 6'9'' 254 pound frame would make a great matchup for Tayshaun.




> Tinsley has improved since the begining of the year, but he is still the same player as he was as a rookie. Billups has almost identical assist numbers and is a much better scorer. They're not equals, they're not even close. Billups got serious all star consideration and Tinsley has struggled to simply be in the lineup most of the year.


I honestly don't know why anyone would vote Billups as an all-star. Tinsley has struggled to be in the lineup because our coach is the brilliant Rick Carlisle. He wants the best from his players. Tinsley just assumed he would be the starting point and when he wasn't he worked on getting the starting spot. He continues to play good because he knows if he doesn't carlisle will take him out.




> Simply, no and no.


Well that's a 5-star answer


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

When it comes down to it, someone with the defensive presence and athletic ability with the size of Rasheed Wallace has to be a huge factor in any potential matchup where the opposition's leading scorer is a big man as it is in this case. Jermaine will still be able to get his points against Rasheed, or Ben or whoever in the NBA guards him, because he's one of the best scoring(and overall) big men in the game, but Rasheed can definitely impact a potential matchup between these two teams by containing Jermaine, and making Artest, Harrington and Tinsley make shots. If Jermaine can be contained, Detroit would have a definite advantage in this matchup, so it's just a matter of _if_ they can contain him, which honestly, I don't know. They have two of the best defensive big men in the game, so it's not out of the question. Personally, I think Detroit and Indiana are the best teams in the East, and I'd like to see this Eastern Conference Finals matchup, because I think it would be a great series.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 1. Read the post, Sheed helps them, but not that much against the Pacers.





> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> What it comes down to, *is does Rasheed Wallace help Detroit against Indiana or not. The answer, of course, is not.*


Re-read your own post.



When Indiana goes to a lineup of:

Tinsley
Artest
Harrington
O'neal
Foster

We could just as easily go with:

Billups
Hamilton/Prince
Wallace
Wallace
Okur


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> You think Reggie plays the majority of the game? Al averages more minutes and his 6'9'' 254 pound frame would make a great matchup for Tayshaun.


Still doesn't change the fact that for the 30+ minutes Reggie is in the game he covers Rip and Artest or Harrington takes Tayshaun. Just saying, in the games they've played so far, Artest hasn't checked Rip for more than a couple minutes at at ime.



> I honestly don't know why anyone would vote Billups as an all-star. Tinsley has struggled to be in the lineup because our coach is the brilliant Rick Carlisle. He wants the best from his players. Tinsley just assumed he would be the starting point and when he wasn't he worked on getting the starting spot. He continues to play good because he knows if he doesn't carlisle will take him out.


Billups got a lot of mention as an all-star snub. I don't think I need to explain why anyone would vote for him. 

And saying Tinsley will play well because Carlisle wants him to is pretty juvenile if you ask me. When I said Tinsley is the same player he was as a rookie I was being generous. He's had a pretty bad season, but is starting play better (at least approaching where he was before), but anyone not drinking the kool-aid can see point guard is a glaring weakness.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Point guard is not a glaring weakness. Anyone who thinks that hasnt watched many of our last 35 games. Tinsley is a solid PG. Would I take him over Billups? I doubt it. Should Billups been an Allstar? Not a chance.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So where is your point. I'm aware of your lineup with Wallace. What I'm saying is that it won't really affect their matchup with the Pacers.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Tinsley is playing better lately, but he's still probably the 3rd worst starting point guard in the Eastern Conference, just ahead of Tyronne Lue and Chucky Atkins.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Still doesn't change the fact that for the 30+ minutes Reggie is in the game he covers Rip and Artest or Harrington takes Tayshaun. Just saying, in the games they've played so far, Artest hasn't checked Rip for more than a couple minutes at at ime.


Reggie averages 28.7 minutes per game, not 30+, he's not on the floor for as long as your think he is. 



> Billups got a lot of mention as an all-star snub. I don't think I need to explain why anyone would vote for him.


I think you do, i can see Billups as a good player but nowhere near all-star calibur.



> And saying Tinsley will play well because Carlisle wants him to is pretty juvenile if you ask me. When I said Tinsley is the same player he was as a rookie I was being generous. He's had a pretty bad season, but is starting play better (at least approaching where he was before), but anyone not drinking the kool-aid can see point guard is a glaring weakness.


I think your having an interpretation problem, i'm not saying tinsley will play well because carlisle wants him too. I'm saying that Carlisle wants the best from the his players. He knows Tinsley can play, but he doesn't want to play mediocre, so he constantly puts pressure on him. Also, why are you saying Tinsley is having a worse season than his 1st? His stats? APG doesn't say much besides what kind of team your on. Mike Bibby, one of the best passers in the league is only getting 5.5 apg because of the team he's on, there are plenty of passers to go around. Tinsley is not given the scoring opportunities nor passing opportunities that Billups probably has, notice half the time Artest handles the ball and we run the offense through jo/harrington in the post and reggie on the perimeter, only when the shot clock's down do we give tinsley the ball, and why, so he can make a great play.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> So where is your point. I'm aware of your lineup with Wallace. What I'm saying is that it won't really affect their matchup with the Pacers.


That part of my post was directed at Asbnyth (sp?)... He posted a big lineup that he said would "handle" Detroit.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Tinsley is playing better lately, but he's still probably the 3rd worst starting point guard in the Eastern Conference, just ahead of Tyronne Lue and Chucky Atkins.


So Kirk Hinrich, Jeff McInnis, Billups, Rafer Alston, TJ Ford, Damon Jones, Eric Snow, and Alvin Williams are better?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Tinsley is playing better lately, but he's still probably the 3rd worst starting point guard in the Eastern Conference, just ahead of Tyronne Lue and Chucky Atkins.


That seems ignorant to me. But I am a die hard Pacers fan, so I could just be too biased to see what you do.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

You can't have it both ways when talking about Tinsley. You say Indiana has better weapons, then you say Tinsley doesn't have the opportunity to pass as much as Billups. Make up your mind... It's one way or the other.


Billups numbers and play had him up for consideration to the All-Star game and he deserved that consideration. He has very good numbers.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Tinsley is playing better lately, but he's still probably the 3rd worst starting point guard in the Eastern Conference, just ahead of Tyronne Lue and Chucky Atkins.


Starting East PGs that Tinsley is better than:
1. Atkins
2. Hinrich (does he start, if not Tinsley = Crawford)
3. McGinnis (if he's the PG)
4. Billups
5. Wade/Alston
6. Ford
7. Lue
8. Snow
9. Stickland (or whoever starts at PG for Toronto as long as it's not Rose)

Last year I would have said Arenas as well, but not this year.

Thats 9 out of 15, not bad in my book.


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

i dont watch the pistons as much as im sure you do, but im surprised, does sheed see a lot of time at the sf?

if he does im interested, is he nearly as effective, i know that portland played him there when zach randolph took the starting pf spot, and he seemed less effective...but that could be due to a myriad of reasons.

it seems that if you stuck sheed at the sf spot you'd b wasting a talent, or at least not utilizing him to his full potential...


----------



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> You can't have it both ways when talking about Tinsley. You say Indiana has better weapons, then you say Tinsley doesn't have the opportunity to pass as much as Billups. Make up your mind... It's one way or the other.
> 
> 
> Billups numbers and play had him up for consideration to the All-Star game and he deserved that consideration. He has very good numbers.


Tinsley doesn't have the opportunity to get assists is what i meant. He can make a great pass underneath the basket but Foster or Jermaine might miss, he can make a great drive and dish play only to have someone like Freddie isolate, which does not get him an assist. A lot of our points come off of 2+ passes with Tinsley being the 1st passer. What doesn't show up on the stat sheet is waht Tinsley brings to our offense and defense. Watch a few Pacers games and you'll see what i mean.

BTW- This is fun and i'm out, i'm gonna go watch RAW.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Absynth</b>!
> i dont watch the pistons as much as im sure you do, but im surprised, does sheed see a lot of time at the sf?
> 
> if he does im interested, is he nearly as effective, i know that portland played him there when zach randolph took the starting pf spot, and he seemed less effective...but that could be due to a myriad of reasons.
> ...


No he rarely gets anytime at SF, but it has been said that when the other team goes to a lineup that permits Sheed can be called upon to take minutes at the 3 spot. If Indy went "big", we'd have no problem doing the same thing.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Starting East PGs that Tinsley is better than:
> ...


----------



## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

Update for this season on the Billups vs. Tinsley stats:

Billups takes the PPG
Billups takes over the rebound leader this year from Tinsley
Tinsley takes assists
Tinsley takes steals
Tinsley takes blocks
Tinsley takes FG%
Billups takes FT%
Billups takes 3pt FG%
Tinsley takes assist to turnover ration
Billups averages more turnover per game
They are tied for double doubles (Tinsley in 28 less games played)

So, Tinsley takes 6 out of 10 stats all in 11 less minutes per game, plus and equal amount of double doubles (4) in *28* less games.

Not to mention, Tinsley rejuvenated the Pacers' offense after replacing Kenny Anderson as the starter.


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> Reggie averages 28.7 minutes per game, not 30+, he's not on the floor for as long as your think he is.


I'm going by what happened when the Pacers and Pistons played, and in those three games Reggie played 30, 35, and 35.



> I think your having an interpretation problem, i'm not saying tinsley will play well because carlisle wants him too. I'm saying that Carlisle wants the best from the his players. He knows Tinsley can play, but he doesn't want to play mediocre, so he constantly puts pressure on him.


All well and good, Carlisle wants the best from his players, how does that make him different from any other coach in the NBA?



> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> So Kirk Hinrich, Jeff McInnis, Billups, Rafer Alston, TJ Ford, Damon Jones, Eric Snow, and Alvin Williams are better?


Better:
Hinrich- better shooter, more disciplined playmaker, great defense

McInnis- better shooter, better passer, has vastly improved the Cavs

Billups- come on now

Damon Jones- maybe I'm just a Damon fan, but 9 points and 9 assists as a starter, 50% from the arc, he's better than Ford and Tinsley

Snow- can't shoot, but he's a great play maker, defender, and leader

As for Rafer Alston and Alvin Williams, they are not better than Tinsley, but Dwyane Wade and Jalen Rose ARE and they're the ones that start at point for their teams.



> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> Update for this season on the Billups vs. Tinsley stats:
> 
> Billups takes the PPG
> ...


Don't start this ignorant crap again.

According to your formula, Tinsley's 0.1 assist lead on Billups is just as valuable as Billup's 9 point lead on Tinsley. 

You are wasting everybodies time.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> Better:
> Hinrich- better shooter, more disciplined playmaker, great defense
> ...


I dont agree with any of that. Hinrich and Damon Jones better? No.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> According to your formula, Tinsley's 0.1 assist lead on Billups is just as valuable as Billup's 9 point lead on Tinsley.
> 
> You are wasting everybodies time.


Lord knows how important blocks per game from a point guard is too.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Ranking of Eastern Conference Starting Point Guards:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Stephon Marbury
3. Baron Davis
4. Gilbert Arenas
5. Kirk Hinrich
6. Chauncey Billups 
7. Jason Terry
8. TJ Ford
9. Jamaal Tinsley
10. Eric Snow
11. Rafer Alston
12. Jeff McInnis
13. Alvin Williams 
14. Chucky Atkins
15. Tyronn Lue


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

Well points obviously are not important to win for a PG either (see: Indiana's top record in the east)



> Hinrich- better shooter, more disciplined playmaker, great defense


Hinrich - .389 FG% Tinsley .426 FG% Hinrich is not a more disciplined playmaker



> McInnis- better shooter, better passer, has vastly improved the Cavs


Tinsley has a better assist-to-turnover ratio, and averages only .4 assists less in 8 less minutes a game. Tinsley rejuventated that Pacers offense thus greatly improving the Pacers.

I don't know what team Damon Jones plays for so I'm not gonna look up stats for him.



> As for Rafer Alston and Alvin Williams, they are not better than Tinsley, but Dwyane Wade and Jalen Rose ARE and they're the ones that start at point for their teams.


Tinsley has assists and steals over him, and plays 8 less minute per game. Jalen Rose is better than Tinsley if in fact he starts at PG.



> According to your formula, Tinsley's 0.1 assist lead on Billups is just as valuable as Billup's 9 point lead on Tinsley.


Now imagine if Tinsley played the same abount of time. Granted he doesn't, but it still shows that he averages more assits in a significant less amount of time (not to mention in 28 less games).



> You are wasting everybodies time.


If you don't want to hear it, stay out of the Pacers board, or this thread. It is your choice whether you want to quote un quote waste it, so you can't come complaining to me about that.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> 
> 
> I dont agree with any of that. Hinrich and Damon Jones better? No.


To each his own. I personally would take Hinrich over almost every young guard in the league, and Damon Jones is averaging just as many assists as Tinsley despite being a bench player most of the year, he's also 2nd in the league in assist-turnover ratio, but like I said, I've always liked Damon Jones.

For reference, I would rank the best Eastern Conference point guards as:

1. Jason Kidd
2. Stephon Marbury
3. Baron Davis
T4. Chauncey Billups
T4. Gilbert Arenas
6. Kirk Hinrich
7. Dwyane Wade
8. Eric Snow
9. Jalen Rose
10. Jason Terry
11. Jeff Mccinnis
12. Damon Jones
13. Jamal Tinsley
14. Chucky Atkins
15. Tyronn Lue


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> 1. Jason Kidd
> 2. Stephon Marbury
> 3. Baron Davis
> T4. Chauncey Billups
> ...


Why are Terry and Rose so low. Why is Billups so high?


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> Hinrich - .389 FG% Tinsley .426 FG% Hinrich is not a more disciplined playmaker


Kirk's averaging 6.5 assists a game on a team where nobody can shoot. And FG% doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how good a shooter someone is. Andre Miller has a much better FG% than Ray Allen, but there is no way he is a better shooter.



> Mcinnis-
> Tinsley has a better assist-to-turnover ratio, and averages only .4 assists less in 8 less minutes a game. Tinsley rejuventated that Pacers offense thus greatly improving the Pacers.


First of all, that's not even true. Mcinnis has a much better assist-turnover ratio than Tinsley. I'm only interested in what Mcinnis has done as an eastern conference point guard (not a western conference shooting guard, although he still had a better ast-to ratio out west than tinsley), Jeff is averaging 7.7 assists and 1.9 TO's with the Cav's. That's a 4.05 ratio, top 5 in the NBA. Tinsley by comparison is at a 2.45 ratio. Mcinnis is MUCH better in this regard.

As for Tinsley rejuvenating the Pacer's offense, they have averaged 93 ppg since he started starting, and 89 ppg when he was sitting at the start of the season. That's 4 ppg swing. Pretty insignificant when you consider the fact that Jonathan Bender came back about the same time Tinsley started playing. Tinsley probably helped, but the difference is marginal at best.

Now the Cavs on the other hand, since acquring Jeff Mcinnis are averaging 97 ppg, pretrade they were averaging 91 ppg. Like in Indiana, there are other factors to consider, like Lebron James moving to shooting guard, but you also have to consider the Cavs also traded away 2 of their scorers in Ricky Davis and Darius Miles. 

The point is, if you give Tinsley credit for rejuvenating Indiana's offense, you have to give Mcinnis even more credit for doing the came in Cleveland.



> I don't know what team Damon Jones plays for


That doesn't surprise me.



> Wade-
> Tinsley has assists and steals over him, and plays 8 less minute per game.


Wade also scores twice as many points as Tinsley and does show shooting a tremendous 47%.



> Now imagine if Tinsley played the same abount of time. Granted he doesn't, but it still shows that he averages more assits in a significant less amount of time (not to mention in 28 less games).


Maybe Tinsley could get more minutes if he was a better player, ever think of that? And the amount of games he has played has nothing to do with per game stats.



> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Why are Terry and Rose so low. Why is Billups so high?


Because Rose is having a terrible season by his standards, Jason Terry can't get much higher until he plays on a team that wins games, and because Billups is a great shooter, expecially in the clutch and a greatly improved passer, playmaker, and leader on one of the best teams in the NBA.


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> Ranking of Eastern Conference Starting Point Guards:
> 
> 1. Jason Kidd
> ...


I pretty much agree with your list, except I think McInnis is better then Alston and I'd say Billups is better than Hinrich.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Lord knows how important blocks per game from a point guard is too.


Blocks are blocks, it still rejects a shot from possibly going in, doesn't matter what position you play.



> As for Tinsley rejuvenating the Pacer's offense, they have averaged 93 ppg since he started starting, and 89 ppg when he was sitting at the start of the season. That's 4 ppg swing. Pretty insignificant when you consider the fact that Jonathan Bender came back about the same time Tinsley started playing. Tinsley probably helped, but the difference is marginal at best.


Jonathan Bender did come back about the same time as TInsley but considering he only played a few games before getting injured again it's not to big of a deal. 4ppg may not seem a lot to you but it really is. 



> 1. Jason Kidd
> 2. Stephon Marbury
> 3. Baron Davis
> T4. Chauncey Billups
> ...


I think your a little bit biased if having Billups on your team, he is nowhere near Gilbert Arenas.

1. Jason Kidd
2. Baron Davis
3. Marbury
4. Arenas
5. Wade
6. Tinsley
7. Hinrich
8. Billups
9. Terry
10. McInnis
11. Eric Snow
12. Rose
13. Jones
14. Atkins
15. Lue


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

Lets just put it at this, we're Pacers fans, so of course we're going to be biased towards Tinsley, and you're Pistons fans so you'll be biased towards Billups. Lets sum this up, Tinsley is a better natural PG, Billups is a better scorer as he can occasionally score 40. They both have their strengths and weaknesses, but IMO are both top PGs.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

How about this? Billups is a better player and he is the better PG.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TicN9neZ8</b>!
> Lets just put it at this, we're Pacers fans, so of course we're going to be biased towards Tinsley, and you're Pistons fans so you'll be biased towards Billups. Lets sum this up, Tinsley is a better natural PG, Billups is a better scorer as he can occasionally score 40. They both have their strengths and weaknesses, but IMO are both top PGs.


I don't think Pistons fans are being biased. If you asked the simple question of who is the better point guard between Jamaal Tinsley or Chauncey Billups to all NBA fans, excluding the Indiana homers, I believe the results would be quite staggering.

In my opinion, one is a top PG. The other is not. They are not both top PG's.

(Not necessarily directing this at you Tic) But please, go on thinking that the only good players are in Indiana. It really is quite comical how there are no weaknesses on your team.

And this is my last comment on this topic. This Tinsley topic has been going on for almost a year, and it's really rather tired. There's got to be better things to discuss. (Remember how this started, I don't want to hear how "if you don't like it don't post", because the instigator was obviously one of the posters saying that they'd rather play Detroit than Milwaukee which is a complete joke and you know it).


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't think Pistons fans are being biased. If you asked the simple question of who is the better point guard between Jamaal Tinsley or Chauncey Billups to all NBA fans, excluding the Indiana homers, I believe the results would be quite staggering.
> ...


I mainly believe Tins is a top PG right now because of the performances he has put up since the all star break, he shoots the 3 about 40% now and has been getting a fair amount of points, assists and steals, he did bad in the game against the Cavs though.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> How about this? Billups is a better player and he is the better PG.


Yes, I agree with that, and I think a good majority of people(Pacer fans or not) would agree that Billups is a better player and a better PG right now.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Not necessarily directing this at you Tic) But please, go on thinking that the only good players are in Indiana. It really is quite comical how there are no weaknesses on your team.


The only weakness is that we don't have a dominant penetrator from the perimeter a la Carter, McGrady, or Kobe, but Tinsley and Artest pull this off good enough for our needs.



> And this is my last comment on this topic. This Tinsley topic has been going on for almost a year, and it's really rather tired.


It's actually my all-time favorite discussion on basketballboards.net, but no ones forcing you to keep pushing your point, however, the discussion wouldn't be the same without you. 



> There's got to be better things to discuss. (Remember how this started, I don't want to hear how "if you don't like it don't post", because the instigator was obviously one of the posters saying that they'd rather play Detroit than Milwaukee which is a complete joke and you know it).


Good job mistinterpreting. I said I'm suprised that the voters on NBA.com didn't give more votes to Milwaukee. This is actually backed up with good facts because we have lost to them twice.


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## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!For reference, I would rank the best Eastern Conference point guards as:
> 
> 1. Jason Kidd
> 2. Stephon Marbury
> ...


I see someone hasn't been watching too much basketball this season.........


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## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!Millertime, I don't think you should be calling anyone out on overvaluing or undervaluing a team, it wasn't long ago that Detroit was "a mediocre team" in your eyes.


I was wrong. And if you find the quote where i said it, i probably gave them some props. 

Remember when Detriot fans said Carlisle will never develop young players which is why he is out of Detriot?? Yeah that's really true....

He has developed Fred Jones into a player who can play in the 4th quarter, who can create plays, who can score, who is not afriad to drive in.... the more i look at it, Fred Jones could be this years version of Austin Croshere from our finals run, getting better and better by each game and breaking out in the playoffs. 

Also, Carlisle played Anderson and Johnson ahead of the "young" Tinsley and now that the playoffs are near... Anderson is sitting and Tinsley is our starter. Once again proving Detriot fans wrong.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Actually, the reason Carlisle is out of Detroit is because he is a prick. It really had nothing to do with what he did on the court.

And what part of my list do you disagree with? 

Someone said Billups should be below Arenas. I put them as equals because, although Arenas is probably more talented, he is a borderline team cancer, Billups has great intangibles- clutch, leadership, and is a superior defender. Arenas can fill up a box score better, but Billups does more to help his team win.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MillerTime</b>!
> 
> 
> I was wrong. And if you find the quote where i said it, i probably gave them some props.
> ...


No, Detroit fans said Carlisle didn't develop young talent or give them the chance to play. His hand was forced into playing Okur and Prince. I don't think anyone said he was incapable of developing young talent. 

I could be wrong on this because it's a Indy team. But didn't Tinsley start getting his minutes once Kenny Anderson went down with an injury?

Calling Detroit a "mediocre team" is hardly giving them props.


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## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!Game 1
> 
> Game 2
> 
> Game 3


I love how you Detriot fans think. Billups and Rip played horrid but it had nothing to do with Indiana? Maybe, just maybe you are right. But here are a few things you forgot to add in your arguement....

Game 1: Think Scot Pollard will be starting at C? Think our two point guards will combine for 6 assists in the playoffs when we meet??? Don't bet on it. Fred Jones is a much better player then he was at that time and will play a bigger role in the playoffs then he did in any meeting before.

Game 2: Think Kenny Anderson will be starting at point guard and get 0 points?? He had 0 points and Johnson had 3. And don't get too high on yourself, their stuggles had little to do with Detriot's defense. Jamaal Tinsley is a huge upgrade from both of those guys. You also think Reggie will only take 5 shots in the playoffs? Think again.

Game 3: We killed you. Artest, Foster and Tinsley had off-days. Don't expect them to have an off-day on the same day when we're in the playoffs. If you hoping for those guys to stuggle at the same time, then you're basicially hoping and praying instead of just argueing.

But like i said, Detriot fans are really biased and your arguements will only look at the WHAT IF's but only the WHAT IF's that make Detriot look good.


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## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> And what part of my list do you disagree with?


Why should i post arguements that will fight your list when you made no back up for your own list. I mean, if said you liked a few guys more then others and placed them higher? So just because you're a fan favorite of a player that means he's better then Tins? You didn't take time to make backup statments for your list so i didn't take the time to stat "mature" arguements on why i disagreed with your list. I thought that was fair.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MillerTime</b>!
> 
> 
> I love how you Detriot fans think. Billups and Rip played horrid but it had nothing to do with Indiana? Maybe, just maybe you are right. But here are a few things you forgot to add in your arguement....
> ...





> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> *I'm not downplaying Indiana in any type of way, they're one of the top teams in the league and would be far from easy to defeat over the course of a seven game series.*
> 
> ...


Who are you arguing with? All I did was provide box scores for our three previous games.

Game 1: you only won by two... You had Pollard at center, but you'd be foolish to think our team hasn't changed.

Game 2: 5 point victory... not exactly dominating

Game 3: I know Indy was killing Detroit in the first quarter, but I believe it was pretty even after that. I didn't see the first quarter, so I have no idea whether that was due to Indy's defense, or because we were just plainly missing shots, or both.

I'm not going to make excuses, you guys have beaten three us times and that's three more times than we can say we've beaten you guys. But at the same time some of you guys act like it is impossible for Indy to lose and I feel we have made the necessary additions to challenge and beat you guys in a *series*. Whether or not that happens is a different story.

EDIT: Typo, had game instead of series (in bold).


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

I actually don't think Mike's list is that bad. Matterfact it's not bad at all in my eyes and I'm not really of fan of any of those guys except maybe the top few guys.

I'd move Tins up over Jones and maybe McInnis, but noone else. Indiana fans can argue he gets limited minutes to play, but I think there's a reason he only gets 28 minutes per or whatever he's getting.


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MillerTime</b>!
> 
> 
> Why should i post arguements that will fight your list when you made no back up for your own list. I mean, if said you liked a few guys more then others and placed them higher? So just because you're a fan favorite of a player that means he's better then Tins? You didn't take time to make backup statments for your list so i didn't take the time to stat "mature" arguements on why i disagreed with your list. I thought that was fair.


The reason I like players like Damon Jones is because I think they are good and very underrated.

And what are you talking about I didn't post backup?



> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> Better:
> Hinrich- better shooter, more disciplined playmaker, great defense
> ...





> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> To each his own. I personally would take Hinrich over almost every young guard in the league, and Damon Jones is averaging just as many assists as Tinsley despite being a bench player most of the year, he's also 2nd in the league in assist-turnover ratio, but like I said, I've always liked Damon Jones.





> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Kirk's averaging 6.5 assists a game on a team where nobody can shoot. And FG% doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how good a shooter someone is. Andre Miller has a much better FG% than Ray Allen, but there is no way he is a better shooter.
> ...





> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Someone said Billups should be below Arenas. I put them as equals because, although Arenas is probably more talented, he is a borderline team cancer, Billups has great intangibles- clutch, leadership, and is a superior defender. Arenas can fill up a box score better, but Billups does more to help his team win.


If you want more backup just ask about a player on the list and I'll give it to you. But like I said, I can't do that until you give me something other than "You must not watch basketball".


----------



## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!Who are you arguing with? All I did was provide box scores for our three previous games.
> 
> Game 1: you only won by two... You had Pollard at center, but you'd be foolish to think our team hasn't changed.
> 
> ...


I was argueing over what you said. That you guys lost on a big part that Billups and Rip stuggled in all 3 games and you said, you don't credit Pacers defense for that but your lack of upcourt game. I was just saying, that even though we've beaten you 3 times, we've had tons of problems also. Both teams changed tons from those games. But you can not just ignore the fact that we are 3-0 vs you guys.

Nothing is impossible. Maybe Detriot or Indiana will lose in round one to say the Knicks or Cavs are this whole argueing would be pointless. I am just saying, Indiana has a VERY GOOD chance of beating Detriot.

You guys are making it sound like Detriot and Indiana were EVEN talent wise and then you got Rasheed which puts you over the top, and that my freind, is the farthest thing from the truth.


----------



## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!And what are you talking about I didn't post backup?



I was referring to the post you said with the list. Since i read half of page 1 and then didn't read this topic for 2 days and theres 5 pages, i didn't read every post and read it quickly. I saw you list and saw no backup and that's what i posted. Sorry i guess i should have read more clearly.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MillerTime</b>!
> 
> I was argueing over what you said. That you guys lost on a big part that Billups and Rip stuggled in all 3 games and you said, you don't credit Pacers defense for that but your lack of upcourt game. I was just saying, that even though we've beaten you 3 times, we've had tons of problems also. Both teams changed tons from those games.


I don't see anything wrong with this. Chauncey and Rip have been very inconsistent all year long and I don't think it has anything to do with you guy's defense. Kenny Anderson, Reggie Miller, Anthony Johnson, and Jamal Tinsley have never come across to me as defensive stoppers. I just don't think they're doing anything special to hinder our guard play. It's tough on a team when your guards are playing with a lack of inside scoring. They have been much more consistent as of late with the recent acquisition of Rasheed Wallace. I do however think Prince's poor play is directly correlated with him being guarded by Ron Artest, it's a terrible matchup for him. There's a compliment, are you happy?





> But you can not just ignore the fact that we are 3-0 vs you guys.





> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> I'm not going to make excuses, you guys have beaten three us times and that's three more times than we can say we've beaten you guys. But at the same time some of you guys act like it is impossible for Indy to lose and I feel we have made the necessary additions to challenge and beat you guys in a *series*. Whether or not that happens is a different story.



Who's ignoring it? You quote me then leave out the part where I said you guys were 3-0, then say I ignored it.  





> Nothing is impossible. Maybe Detriot or Indiana will lose in round one to say the Knicks or Cavs are this whole argueing would be pointless. I am just saying, Indiana has a VERY GOOD chance of beating Detriot.
> 
> You guys are making it sound like Detriot and Indiana were EVEN talent wise and then you got Rasheed which puts you over the top, and that my freind, is the farthest thing from the truth.


It has nothing to do with talent, it has to do with performance on the court. So far up to this point in the season you guys performances have been better than ours to the tune of 3-0, but like I said before with the recent acquisition of Rasheed Wallace we are a much better team now and we weren't that far apart (Det. & Indy) to begin with, IMO.

You act like Detroit doesn't have a shot at beating you guys.

R-Star, Tic -- I respect that you at least look at us at a formidable opponent.


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> R-Star, Tic -- I respect that you at least look at us at a formidable opponent.


Yeah, I think we guys are a challenge, and don't take any of the stuff in this thread personal, remember, it's just debating. We've still got respect for you guys.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TicN9neZ8</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, I think we guys are a challenge, and don't take any of the stuff in this thread personal, remember, it's just debating. We've still got respect for you guys.


I never take these message boards personal unless someone insults me personally.

I'm as cool as the other side of the pillow.


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## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't see anything wrong with this. Chauncey and Rip have been very inconsistent all year long and I don't think it has anything to do with you guy's defense. Kenny Anderson, Reggie Miller, Anthony Johnson, and Jamal Tinsley have never come across to me as defensive stoppers. I just don't think they're doing anything special to hinder our guard play. It's tough on a team when your guards are playing with a lack of inside scoring. They have been much more consistent as of late with the recent acquisition of Rasheed Wallace. I do however think Prince's poor play is directly correlated with him being guarded by Ron Artest, it's a terrible matchup for him. There's a compliment, are you happy?


I never said you were right or wrong, did I? All i said, if you are going to look at the what IF's for Detriot, you should also consider Indiana wasn't at 100% either in those games. 





> Who's ignoring it? You quote me then leave out the part where I said you guys were 3-0, then say I ignored it.


You guys in these 5 pages of debate make it sound like the 3 games don't matter. The truth is, they matter very little, it's all about the playoffs, but the fact is, we're 3-0 vs you guys which means we're doing something right.



> You act like Detroit doesn't have a shot at beating you guys.


This is like the 4th time you guys have said this to either me or some other Indiana fan. It's garbage. I NEVER said you have no chance. Where did i say that? The funny thing here is, it's DETRIOT fans who are making it sound like INDIANA has NO chance. Not the other way around. Maybe not you directly. 

Nothing is a guarentee in the playoffs. Esspicially when the top 2 teams in the east play. You keep saying i think you have no chance, but thats EXACTLY what you guys are saying about the Pacers. That's whats really odd about this whole debate.


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## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> I never take these message boards personal unless someone insults me personally.
> ...


We all love our teams with passion and i respect the opinion of Detriot fans. I never take anything personally, i just have fun debating with you guys. We both support awsome teams.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> I don't see anything wrong with this. Chauncey and Rip have been very inconsistent all year long and I don't think it has anything to do with you guy's defense. Kenny Anderson, Reggie Miller, Anthony Johnson, and Jamal Tinsley have never come across to me as defensive stoppers. I just don't think they're doing anything special to hinder our guard play. It's tough on a team when your guards are playing with a lack of inside scoring. They have been much more consistent as of late with the recent acquisition of Rasheed Wallace. I do however think Prince's poor play is directly correlated with him being guarded by Ron Artest, it's a terrible matchup for him. There's a compliment, are you happy?


Indiana does have an excellent team defense ya know.

Of course Detroit has a chance to beat Indiana. The point of the thread is that Milwaukee is a bigger threat because they match up against us better and basically play us better. Indiana, plays Detroid very well. 

Another side point of the topic is how Tinsley is better than Billups.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Indiana does have an excellent team defense ya know.


I know Indiana has good team D, but I still don't think they're poor play is directly correlated the Pacers. They have been inconsistent pretty much all year whether we play the Pacers or the Hawks.



> Of course Detroit has a chance to beat Indiana. The point of the thread is that Milwaukee is a bigger threat because they match up against us better and basically play us better. Indiana, plays Detroid very well.


We'll see how well they match up April 4th. We have a new team and I feel we match up with you guys pretty well.



> Another side point of the topic is how Tinsley is better than Billups.



If you think so...:greatjob:


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

And the bucks beat us again. The bad thing is that if the standing stay the same, or Milwaukee and New Orleans switch places, we are guaranteed to play either Milwaukee or New Orleans in the second round cause they will be the 4/5 game. New Orleans and Milwaukee seem to have our number the best in the east.


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> And the bucks beat us again. The bad thing is that if the standing stay the same, or Milwaukee and New Orleans switch places, we are guaranteed to play either Milwaukee or New Orleans in the second round cause they will be the 4/5 game. New Orleans and Milwaukee seem to have our number the best in the east.


You can continue to bring this up all you want, but if you'd rather play Detroit than Milwaukee in the playoffs, you are crazy.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> You can continue to bring this up all you want, but if you'd rather play Detroit than Milwaukee in the playoffs, you are crazy.


Yeah, cause I said that in that quote. We wouldn't have to play Detroit until at least the 3rd round. 1st we would have to get by Milwaukee or New Orleans.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

I know I wasn't going to respond anymore, but just for the record:



> Originally Posted by <b>PacersguyUSA!</b>
> I thought more people would have chosen Milwaukee seeing as they've beaten us twice. <b>Detroid isn't as big of a threat,</b> haven't we beat them 3 times?


Special emphasis on the bolded part.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Yeah, cause I said that *in that quote.* We wouldn't have to play Detroit until at least the 3rd round. 1st we would have to get by Milwaukee or New Orleans.


special emphasis on the bolded part


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> special emphasis on the bolded part


Someone other than Pacersguy please explain to me what he is trying to say.


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## LegaC (Jun 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> Someone other than Pacersguy please explain to me what he is trying to say.


Not sure why you need an explanation; seem pretty self explanitory. But anywayr:

Let's examine the post:










In reply to one of Pacerguy's posts, DetBNyce said 



> if you'd rather play Detroit than Milwaukee in the playoffs, you are crazy.


Pacersguy then replied that he did not say what DetBNyce said he said and proceeded to give further explanation of his thoughts. 

Then you (jvanbusk) made a smart-alec comment, trying to prove Pacersguy wrong.

Pacersguy then made a smart-alec comment back, that in a way made fun of you because you don't understand that he said "in that quote" (the quote that DetNBNyce quoted from PacersguyUSA.

Is that a good enough explanation?


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

Actually I wanted someone other than you (Pacersguy) to respond. Or is this your "brother" or "father"? And even your explanation makes no sense.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

Just answer me this:

Where in *this quote* (like I bolded before):



> And the bucks beat us again. The bad thing is that if the standing stay the same, or Milwaukee and New Orleans switch places, we are guaranteed to play either Milwaukee or New Orleans in the second round cause they will be the 4/5 game. New Orleans and Milwaukee seem to have our number the best in the east.


did I say I'd "rather play Detroit than Milwaukee in the playoffs"



Just answer me that.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

I don't see what that has to do with anything. I never said you did. 

I was just pointing out that you did in the first post of the thread, which your opinion very much contradicts now and in this post:



> Good job mistinterpreting. I said I'm suprised that the voters on NBA.com didn't give more votes to Milwaukee. This is actually backed up with good facts because we have lost to them twice.


Which was in response to me saying it was ridiculous to say that Milwaukee was a bigger threat than Detroit. 

And your opinion is still very contradictory: I would like to know, who poses the bigger threat in your opinion: Detroit or Milwaukee? Because one moment it's Milwaukee and the next you didn't say that and it's Detroit. Which is it?

Also, I didn't bring this up earlier (and by earlier I mean quite a few months) because I really do not care, but don't you think it's kind of lame to go on under three different screen names and give me and DetBNyce "1 star ratings" just so you can lower our ratings by a star? Seems pretty pathetic to me.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

I'd rather play Milwaukee, but Milwaukee is the bigger threat because we would play them before Detroit.

And I only go under PacersguyUSA, sorry to burst your bubble. And I think I gave you a 3 cause you used to make good posts.


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## froggyvk (Sep 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> If you think so...:greatjob:


Tinsley is better than Billups!

Congrats on the Eastern Conference clinch. Can't wait till the playoffs.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>froggyvk</b>!
> 
> 
> Tinsley is better than Billups!
> ...


Agreed.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> I'd rather play Milwaukee, but Milwaukee is the bigger threat because we would play them before Detroit.
> 
> And I only go under PacersguyUSA, sorry to burst your bubble. And I think I gave you a 3 cause you used to make good posts.


I don't really know how to respond to this, because it doesn't really make any sense. You've been arguing throughout this thread about how Indiana would have no problem with the Pistons, how Rasheed wouldn't make any difference, and how you have beaten the Pistons three times this year. But, on the other hand, you say you think Milwaukee is a bigger threat because they've beaten you a couple of times. Obviously, it sure sounds like you are saying that Milwaukee is a bigger threat no matter when who meets who.

As for the second part I find it kind of strange how LegaC just appears after such a long absence for the purpose of addressing that particular post. That's odd. But, like I said I don't really care. There really is no reason to lie though. I know the truth, and have known for quite some time.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> I know I wasn't going to respond anymore


Please don't.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Please don't.


I take it you have no response? Fair enough.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

Yup, I'm outta ammo.


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