# Knicks Trade Van Horn



## spongyfungy

Van Horn is gone. Isiah never wanted him. I guess he wanted a more athletic guy in Tim Thomas. 

He also traded Doleac for Nazr.

I'm not being racist here but he's trading everyone that even resembles Larry Bird.


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## hobojoe

*Van Horn out, Tim Thomas+Nazr Mohammad In*

Trade just announced...


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## Rashidi

Doleac resembles Larry Bird?

Isn't this the 2nd time Tim Thomas has been traded for Van Horn?

Can we trade Tim back for Toni Kukoc?


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## Rashidi

Bleh.

Well, I'm kinda happy for Van Horn. He made it through NY without getting butchered by the media. The fans were actually liking him. It will be interesting to see their reaction when he comes back, hopefully they remember how he played above expectations here, and not revert to mindless propaganda gobbling NYers like usual.

I'd be concerned about Tim Thomas actually playing as well as Van Horn did. He has pretty much the same strengths and weaknesses. He's quicker, but a worse rebounder.

I notice he usually would light up the Knicks each year since they had to guard him with Sprewell.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

Confirmed

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1735956




Anyway by resembles Larry Brown he mean s white. Just come out and say it Isiah Thomas has gotten rid of all the White players in NYK.



Personally I don't like this trade. Tim Thomas is a whiney little wimp. Mr. I don't want to play the 4 spot so I'll sit out games can launch himself out a window.


Nazr is okay, like Jerome James is okay. BFD neither are woth VH. VH was playing well, why you ask? Because this team had finally developed some chemistry! That's the whole point of playing above your expected level or " overachieving " in basketball. When teams play as team everyone looks better.


With houston out we now have no effective perimeter shooting. We just raded it away. IT is a fool. We need at least 1 zone buster to win. I hate how he only sees talent and not chemsitry. Can you imagine if we still have TT and Raweed comes along??


Neither one of those guys likes to play the 4 spot, and when they do neither one of those guys plays in the paint; should be annoying to watch.


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## onetwo88

insidehoops.com says that if van horn exercises his player option in two seasons then he's a free agent the same year that tim thomas is, and van horn IS expected to use that player option

and they say that vanhorn makes a million or two more per season than tim thomas

so basically the contracts are for the same length, so it's really a matter of who is better for the team


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## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>onetwo88</b>!
> insidehoops.com says that if van horn exercises his player option in two seasons then he's a free agent the same year that tim thomas is, and van horn IS expected to use that player option
> 
> and they say that vanhorn makes a million or two more per season than tim thomas
> 
> so basically the contracts are for the same length, so it's really a matter of who is better for the team


This would be stupid of him, because he is most likely never going to see a contract like that ever again. He will probably be advised not to opt out.


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## tdizzle

I personally do think Isiah Thomas does not repect white players as he does with black players, just based on his moves from when he first became a head coach with the Pacers.

Hope Van Horn can do well in Milwaukee. I've always liked him as a player and I think he has unfairly taken a bad rap for some reason ever since he has entered the NBA. 

As a Hawks fan I don't quite understand the trade. I didn't think it was possible to accumulate any more cap room but I guess thats what their going for. I thought they should at least give Nazr a chance to start after Ratliff left. He has started in the past and shown signs of being a very capable center, espically in the Eastern conference. His contract is nothing like the players that were traded last week and it seems pointless to try to get more cap room with so much already. Wish Nazr the best in New York.


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## Brady00

This helps both the Knicks and the Bucks. 
Van Horn will fit in better with the Bucks.
Thomas will be a great fit and Mohammed is 100 times better than Doleac.


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## the Trent Tuckers

Hi, new member here. 
I think that getting Nazr was a good move although Doleac was playing well. If this guy gets the playing time I hope he plays as well as he did with the 76ers when they went to the finals. 
TT on the other hand has always been a bust. Maybe him coming here gets him to step his game up. I think that we're giving up a great perimeter shooter tho, and hope some1 on the bench can take over that spot.


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## son of oakley

I can't say I love the moves but I don't hate them. We still have Marbury and Houston to bomb away from behind the arc, and Kurt Thomas has the pretty mid-range game. 

I think Isiah likes what I like, forwards who play closer to the paint than the likes of VH and Doleac. I have no idea if he's racist or thinks blacks make better ball players (perish the thought!), but he did say he wanted to make the team more athletic. Guess who wasn't too athletic...

Van Horn did play well here. As one who was against the Sprewell trade (still am) I must give him props, and I think the fans will upon his return. I would have thought his time here would have earned him more respect in the league, increasing his trade value, but if TT is the best we could get for him (he was being turned down left and right) than I guess not.

I like TT skills but not his attitude. Hopefully those moves between F-Will and Shandon, where every time someone complains about playing time they get sent home or to the hospital, will be a message that resounds throughout the clubhouse. Plus he will be at his preferred position. We've still got the pick-and-pop with Thomas, but now we've got a pick-and-roll, an alleyoop, and a mad dash full court run.

Doleac for Nazr? It's a good trade for both clubs. They're different but equal. We needed to get faster and younger at the 5 and we needed more defense and rebounding. We didn't need a center out behind the arc, though I conceed that after giving up VH we may have needed it a little more.

All in all, can't say we got a lot for nothing -- we gave up at least as much as we took back. But I do believe this will make us a better balanced, more diversified team (from a skills perspective, not race). 

Now if you throw Rasheed into the mix we are really ready to rock and roll.


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## The True Essence

i dont really know about this trade. I hope Thomas isnt as inconsistent as Keith.


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## walkon4

*bad trade*

Bad trade

Van Horn had been playing well. He was a nice fit.

TT has a bad attitude as another poster pointed out. 

Nazr will not accomplish anything.


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## Tapseer

The racism is in the minds of people who would even bring up the subject of racism in this forum. I'm surprised at some of the posts here. All right, so Doleac can hit a couple of open jumpers, we can debate whether Tim Thomas vs. Van Horn for years (personaly, I'm not a fan of that trade). But what exactly did Isiah Thomas do to raise some of questions and posts? Don't forget, Isiah also got rid of Clarence Weatherspoon, Charlie Ward, Harold Isley, and Mcdyess, none of the above mentioned players even look like a Nowitzski, let alone Larry Legend Bird. All the players except for Van Horn, were marginal players, not making any real contribution to the team until Stephon Marbury got here as in the case with Doleac. So let's talk basketball and leave the racist talk for your local angry white male meeting or the next KKK assembley. Cheese and Crackers ( I learned that from my sister today), I can't understand some of you guys:upset:


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## NYCbballFan

I guess the racist implication comes in because the two players the Knicks picked up aren't appreciably better than the two players they lost, just different. Perhaps, there is also an element for Thomas of excising the Layden influence from the team.

I see the move as less about quality than about reshaping the Knicks into the type of team more suited to Thomas' preferred vision. He wants to amp up the game, maybe to match the Nets super-athletic attack, maybe not. Marbury is certainly athletic enough to speed up a game with the right players around him. 

KVH has played well for the Knicks, but he does have a poor history under high-stakes situations. I would like to have held onto Doleac, but Mohammed does potentially bring an athletic, physical presence in the low blocks, which the Knicks need, too.


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## Tom

is Thomas racist? he didn't like bird either. Maybe, thats too strong, but he has some history behind him. I'm all for the East so that wasn't a hater thread.


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## Rashidi

> I think Isiah likes what I like, forwards who play closer to the paint than the likes of VH and Doleac.


Tim Thomas doesn't play any closer to the basket than Van Horn.

Marbury and Van Horn had good chemistry. I don't see the Marbury/Thomas connection on the 3pt line working nearly as well.

Thomas is scoring a career high 14.1 ppg right now. Van Horn has never scored lower than 14.8. Right now Van Horn has a 16.48 EFF, while Thomas as a 13.24 EFF (also a career high).

Career averages

Van Horn
17.6 ppg
7.5 rpg
1.7 apg
0.9 spg
0.6 bpg
2.4 tpg
34.0 mpg
.442 fg%
.352 3pt% (460-1305)
.831 ft%
Playoff Experience: NBA Finals 1x, Second Round 1x, First Round 1x

Tim Thomas
11.8 ppg
4.1 rpg
1.4 apg
0.8 spg
0.4 bpg
1.5 tpg
26.0 mpg
.442 fg%
.360 3pt% (492-1367)
.759 ft%
Playoff Experience: Conference Finals 1x, First Round 3x

I think the consensus around the league is that Thomas is a great 6th man, not really a good starter. Will Thomas have good chemistry?

Until we find out, this is an eh trade.

For what it's worth, TT is 26 years old, Van Horn is 28. Van Horn has struggled with injures lately, TT has missed about 23 games in his career due to injury. Further, VH always reminded me of the type of player that would retire due to injury. Maybe it's just the Tom Gugliotta in me, but I didn't see him lasting past the age of 34. Once his knees go, his career is pretty much over since he's been molded into a SF.

So for the long term, it appears the Knicks got the better end. Assuming TT doesn't kill the chemistry of the team in the future as bad as he will today. Look for Penny to play a lot of 4th quarters for awhile.

And it could have been worse. I'll take TT over Al Harrington.

Doleac for Mohammed was fine, Knicks need a banger more than another shooter, and Mohammed will make a better starter after Mutombo retires. Atlanta is the perfect situation for Doleac. He's a free agent, and after raising his stock off the bench with NY, he's probably going to be the starter in Atlanta. So I'm sure he can trick some team in to giving him a little over half their mid-level. 

2 Layden players down, 6 to go.


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## Rashidi

Btw, I'm finding it very ironic that people are looking so down on Layden's key summer acquisition being traded. Cheer up fellas, we still have Moochie Norris backing up Marbury.


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## Tapseer

I like getting Mohammed. I think that part of the trade aspect it works for the Knicks. I'm sitting on the fence here thiinking about the Van Horn part of the deal. I think I like Van Horn better than Thomas. I'm really trying to come to grips as to how Tim Thomas (forever more referred to as TT) helps us more than Van Horn. I'm really not trying to stress my brain over the matter, but bottom line; we need Houston to come off this injury and shoot like he did last season. I think more so than ever before, we really need Houston to be the man. Nothing against Marbury, I'm his biggest fan I know he is going to do what he has to. But I think with Van Horn gone now, Houston really has to show up. I wouldn't want my playoff aspirations to rest in the hands of TT. He is not a money player when I think about it now. At least VH made some big shots in big situations (ala, against Boston 2 years ago).I don't like trading VH for TT, but I don't think (I know it's not) a race issue with Isiah Thomas. We have the rest of the season to see if Isiah is the man or not. But, for good or bad Isiah did more to shake this team up in 2 months than Layden did in 5 years...


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## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> And it could have been worse. I'll take TT over Al Harrington.



I agree with everything else save the injuries part, and this. WTF??? Al harrington?

Have you seen Al harrington play? If he got consistent minutes like Thomas has he'd be known in this league as one of the top 10 SF.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

I'm pretty sure the racism ideas come from the fact that Isiah shot his mouth off like a fool. With his comments about bird:

Also, 


He ignored Austin Croshere and rarely played Foster.

Then he came to NY and got rid of all our white players. Hell he even got rid of Lampe!



Is he racist, probably but, in truth I don't give a crap. As long as he doesn't ruin my team he can hate whoever he wants for whatever silly reason he wants.



I just don't like what he's doing right now. I'd hate to see Raweed on this team but I know he's coming. I'd hate to see baker on this team but I know he's coming. 

I really don't like Tim Thomas he is way to tempermental. Furthermore, when Thomas lets Raweed come over to this team, him an Thomas are going to clash big time. Those are both people who are pretty negative about things and you don't want them feeding off of each others idiocy.

Combine them with a guy so mentally weak he can't stop drinking, and you have 3 players on a team who are all very mentally weak and feed off of failure.


I thought we had all the right pieces two shooters a pentrator and disher. Seemed like the right mix for a playoff run all we need was a front court who could play moderatly well in the paint and we would have had a balanced attack.


COMBINED that with the fact that our guys seemed to be clicking. We were starting to see some chemistry forming, and now we'll never know. 


Bugs me. To much change not enough stability. Who knows though maybe everything turns around yada yada, but remember guys this is NY, when you're succesful in NY all of your flaws are amplified. In a city of 8 million, there is always someone to feed your ego and always someone to server you a drink.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>Tom</b>!
> is Thomas racist? he didn't like bird either. Maybe, thats too strong, but he has some history behind him. I'm all for the East so that wasn't a hater thread.



Not to derail the thread to much but your sig is almost a contradiction in terms. Quoting Thomas Jefferson and then wishing to relect Bush. Well whatever I probably shouldn't have posted this,


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## Tom

I understand, but if a team wants a good player(Van horn) they need to unerstand that he isn't a #1 or maybe 2 guy full time. The guy can play the game if treated as a very very good role player. I won't forgive Thomas for his comments on bird though. he is an idiot.


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## Tapseer

I agree with Knicksbiggestfan, if Al Harrington got starter minutes, he would be a stud. No question.


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## Tapseer

As a Knick fan, my biggest worry right now is Isiah supposed infatuation with Vin Baker. He needs to leave that dude alone.


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## Tapseer

Isiah is on nba tv right now


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## truth

for all you guys who think these trades are racially motivated by Zeke...You do realise a white guy (dolan)cuts the checks and makes the final decisions...lets be real here....


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## shazha

> Originally posted by <b>Tapseer</b>!
> Isiah is on nba tv right now


man kvh was playing great. Hard to argue with 7-3 or whatever their record was. Nazr is a great aquisition i think thats why they did this, because mutombo is aging.


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## Tapseer

Nazr is a great aquisition. That's why I don't see the need to have traded VH. I only hope that Isiah's gamble pays off.


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## NYCbballFan

I thought Rashidi meant Othella Harrington, not Al, but maybe the inference just passed me by. Was there a trade on the table with the Pacers?

OT: Curious. Why does support for the re-election of GW Bush for president contradict a Thomas Jefferson quote? Is that a Patriot Act versus Constitution reference?


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## son of oakley

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Tim Thomas doesn't play any closer to the basket than Van Horn.


I have some pretty strong memories of TT getting a lot of finishes at the rim. He's not a post up guy but he can slash and drive, no?



> Thomas is scoring a career high 14.1 ppg right now. Van Horn has never scored lower than 14.8. Right now Van Horn has a 16.48 EFF, while Thomas as a 13.24 EFF (also a career high).


Believe it or not, even I think VH may be the better player between the two. Together with Nasr, it's a lateral move. But I'm looking at the team as a unit, not an assemblage of individual players. Like you say, chemistry will have a lot to do with it. My hunch is that inspite of the apparent on-court chemistry between Marbury and VH, SM just doesn't trust the guy to be there when he needs him, and gave IT the thumbs up on TT. I wonder how much Wilkens was involved in decisions???

One thing to consider on a closer inspection of stats, one will find that come playoffs TT performance goes UP while VH goes down. 

Playoffs 02/03:

TT 17.8/4.6
VH 10.4/7.5


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## NYKBaller

We are more atheletic now...


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## Rashidi

> I agree with Knicksbiggestfan, if Al Harrington got starter minutes, he would be a stud. No question.


You could say the same about TT.

Harrington is already getting starters minutes, 31 mpg off the bench. He's averaging 13.5 ppg and 6.6 rpg. Thomas is averaging 14.1 ppg in 32 mpg starting. Add in that he seems to be quite injury prone, isn't as athletic as TT, and has a worse shot. Harrington is more a PF than a SF. He's 6'9 and 250 lbs (TT is 6'10 and 240). He shoots below 30% from behind the arc, and only has 39 career 3pters. TT has 49 this year. Harrington is clearly a downgrade from Van Horn. Thomas at the least, has the athleticism to give this team another option.



> He is not a money player when I think about it now. At least VH made some big shots in big situations (ala, against Boston 2 years ago).


Actually, believe it or not, both KVH and TT are 44% 3pt shooters in the playoffs. His 3pt shooting was a key component of the Conference Finals Milwuakee team, and his 3pt shooting (and 17 ppg) were a lot better than Michael Redd (who forgot to show up to the playoffs last year). Van Horns numbers from his Finals run are down from his season numbers somewhat, but I attribute that to Kenyon Martin being the go to guy in the playoffs (Kidd goes to him more in a half-court offense).

Wasn't Tim Thomas 6th man of the year when the Bucks went to the Conference Finals? I might be in favor of starting Shandon Anderson at SF, to bring TT off the bench. Especially since he's versatile (supposedly) enough to play SG.

C - Mutombo
PF - KT
SF - Shandon
SG - Houston
PG- Marbury
Bench
6th SF/SG/PF - TT
7th SG/SF - Penny
8th PF/C - Othella (if the Knicks get Baker, he'll fill this role and Othella gets traded)
9th C - Mohammed
10th PG - Norris/Williams
12th - Sweetney or DerMarr, whichever fits on the roster better (I'll go with Sweetney since TT makes DerMarr redundant)

With the starting lineup, your offensive options are
1. Marbury taking guy off dribble
2. Kick out to Houston for a 3
3. Letting Houston work his man for a jumper in his face.
4. KT pick and roll.
5. Shandon getting out on the break
6. Deke awkwardly throwing up whatever he touches.

The advantage of TT on the bench is the Knicks will have a very versatile bench to use. When TT enters the game, he could go in for either KT, Shandon, or Houston.

If he goes in for Shandon, he's at SF. If he goes in for Houston, Shandon slides to SG, and the Knicks now have 2 wingmen running the break. If he enters at PF, the Knicks are ready to run with an athletic front court with 3 perimeter shooter (4 if you sub in Penny for Shandon). 

One problem I noticed with the Knicks is against the Clips, VH only played 12 minutes. This is because the Clips use a 3 guard alignment, with Corey Maggette and Quentin Richardson at the 2 and 3. The Knicks had to use Penny at SF most of the game (which meant having to use Shandon at the 2 most of the game. Frank Williams ended up seeing time at the 2 that game because of the lack of depth. I think with TT, he would have been able to handle SF and let Penny and Shandon split time at the 2.



> Hell he even got rid of Lampe!


Don't forget that the genius traded him for Cezery Trybanski. Then again, maybe he just wanted a white guy who nobody expects to play. Everybody would have been clamoring for Lampe to play more if he were still on the team, especially with the Van Horn trade. Brining in Trybanski gives IT a token white big man he can bury as badly as he did Croshere. Just for a good reason this time.



> OT: Curious. Why does support for the re-election of GW Bush for president contradict a Thomas Jefferson quote? Is that a Patriot Act versus Constitution reference?


"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson

I think pretty much every president is guilty of this to some extent. Just Bush moreso than the rest. What a sad state of affairs.


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## Rashidi

> Playoffs 02/03:
> 
> TT 17.8/4.6
> VH 10.4/7.5


Last season I attribute to Clifford Robinson, a great defender with a similar game to Van Horn (albeit, older). In the first round, Robinson also shut down Pat Garrity (a similar player) even worse than he did Van Horn. It's not like the Sixers had a post presence to open up the perimeter, same as the Magic. Leave Big Ben in the middle and Cliff can chase around the perimeter shooting big men. Also, I think Van Horn's biggest game in the post season last year was the clincher vs the Hornets.


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## Rashidi

Oh, small tidbit I wasn't aware of. I just found out the Knicks made only one trade. I thought they made two seperate trades.

In that case, then yeah, this is a good trade. I have a problem with Van Horn straight up for TT, but since Mohammed is clearly better than Doleac, I'll accept the downgrade.


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## The_Franchise

All I have to say for this trade is that Van Horn's outside shooting will be sorely missed. He really ran well with Marbury and the fact of the matter was he played well in transition. And when the Knicks racked up their fast break points they almost always won. Tim Thomas is a terrible defender, and although I'm not sure about his range I know he is a streaky shooter and gets most of his points facing the basket. Plays well off the ball though, and the Knicks will need him to stay near the basket on offense and make those 2nd chance opportunities he has done his whole career.

As for Mohammed, puts up strong numbers for his minutes, played great with Philly three years ago and should get close to a double double if given close to 30 mpg. Mohammed and Thomas is a very strong rebounding frontcourt, even though both are under 6'10. Shouldn't matter in the East.


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## son of oakley

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Last season I attribute to Clifford Robinson, a great defender with a similar game to Van Horn (albeit, older). In the first round, Robinson also shut down Pat Garrity (a similar player) even worse than he did Van Horn. It's not like the Sixers had a post presence to open up the perimeter, same as the Magic. Leave Big Ben in the middle and Cliff can chase around the perimeter shooting big men. Also, I think Van Horn's biggest game in the post season last year was the clincher vs the Hornets.


That's fine, and you and I seem to be on the same page regarding the trade. But over their careers their post season stats show TT gets better in the second season, VH gets worse.

Van Horn:

PPG RPG APG

'98 reg season 
19.7 6.6 1.7
'98 playoffs
12.7 3.0 .3

'02 reg
14.8 7.5 2.0
Playoffs
13.3 6.7 2.1

'03 reg
15.9 7.1 1.3
playoffs
10.4 7.5 .8

Tim Thomas:

PPG RPG APG

'99 reg (16 min per game)
7.2 2.5 .9
playoffs
7.7 4.0 .3

00 reg
11.8 4.2 1.4
playoffs
15.4 4.8 2.0

01 reg
12.6 4.1 1.8
playoffs
11.3 4.5 1.6

03 reg
13.3 4.9 1.3
playoffs
17.8 4.8 1.3

Career playoff averages:
Van Horn:
12.3 6.6 1.5 -- in 32 MPG
TT:
12.8 4.6 1.5 -- in 27 MPG

Seems the rap against TT is he's lazy. He's got the skills and the drive to do it in the post season. Isiah and Lenny will just have to find a way to get it out of him all year long.


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## Rashidi

The 98 playoffs Van Horn played against Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman. Think Tim Thomas would raise his production against them?


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## Rashidi

Tim Thomas

In wins
.481 fg%
.419 3pt%
11.3 FGA

In losses
.404 fg%
.286 3pt%
13.2 FGA


Keith Van Horn

In wins
.461 fg%
.435 3pt%

In losses
.432 fg%
.303 3pt%

It would appear that TT is even more inconsistent than Van Horn is (and we already knew he was a far worse rebounder).

Once Van Horn got healthy, he was magnificent. He shot .346 in November and .231 on threes. He also averaged 3.3 tpg. In December, he shot .471 and .340 on threes, cutting his tpg to 2.7. In January, he shot .469 and .500 on threes, cutting his tpg to 1.9 in part due to Marbury taking the ball out of his hands.

--------------------------

Last year vs Nets 2003 playoffs

Game 1 (loss, came off bench)
25 points (1st on team)
10-14 FG (5-6 3pt)
2 rebs

Game 2 (win, started at PF)
18 points (3rd on team)
7-16 FG (1-4 3pt)
2 rebs

Game 3 (loss, started at PF)
22 points (2nd on team)
7-17 FG (1-2 3pt)
11 rebs

Game 4 (overtime win, started at PF)
20 points (T-2nd on team)
6-13 FG (3-5 3pt)
6 rebs

Game 5 (loss, started at PF)
9 points (5th on team)
3-11 FG (0-2 3pt)
2 rebs

Game 6 (loss, started at PF)
13 pionts
3-7 FG (2-2 3pt)
6 rebs

Richard Jefferson and Kenyon Martin combined for 45 points on 20-32 FG in game 6. Tim Thomas ended up fouling out. TT's offensive numbers were ok, but that's all. Obviously not a good efender.

Not exactly a clutch performer given that....
1. The Bucks lost TT's top 2 scoring performances.
2. He either choked or was shut down after the series was tied 2-3. He played more minutes in the playoffs than he did in the regular season.

Nor should his points have much bearing, because he scored them at PF, not SF. He's obviously quicker than Martin. His scoring numbers do not reflect what a poor rebounder/defender TT is. How the hell do you start a playoff game at PF, and only grab 2 rebounds? 2, 2, 11, 6, 2, 6 is unacceptable, and negates what extra scoring he brought in the mismatch.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> for all you guys who think these trades are racially motivated by Zeke...You do realise a white guy (dolan)cuts the checks and makes the final decisions...lets be real here....



Is that why we had nearly all Utah players for a while. Dolan rules this team like a lord runs a vassel, not like a lord runs a serf.




> As a Knick fan, my biggest worry right now is Isiah supposed infatuation with Vin Baker. He needs to leave that dude alone.


No kidding, what the hell? Does he need a drinking buddy?





> You could say the same about TT.


I would argue that Tim Thomas gets starters minutes and Harrington gets bench minutes. 


Note that when harrington does get some longevity to his playing time he is generally a better scorer and a slightly better defender, though most players are better than TT at defending.

Harrington has a much more fluid game and better post moves, furthermore he has a better shot than TT I don't know where you got that from. Harrington has always been a better shooter than TT. 


Harrington is a better scorer who might not be able to jump as high but can to just about everything else Tim can. In addition to that he can post, he rebounds better and he is younger.



> We are more atheletic now...


TT is a slasher who can't defend. He is also a real poor rebounder. He is more athletic but a terrible rebounder and believe it or not a worse defender than VH. Rebounds and defense> scoring and athleticism.




> OT: Curious. Why does support for the re-election of GW Bush for president contradict a Thomas Jefferson quote? Is that a Patriot Act versus Constitution reference?



There's alot that Bush did, the quote implies, starting a war most people here didn't want, giving money to subsisize churches trying to overturn roe v wade etc etc.

Many of his actions embody the " compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." 

As a conservative he sickens me. Because of him and religion and that drug addicted hypocrite RL, the conservative party is in shambles right now.

People tend to forget that the conservative party is the one that trusts people to govern themselves, that wants a seperation between church and state and religion and that believed in limiting the power of government.


Anyway I don't like this trade, TT better not pull any of that tempermental crap while he is here. We are going to the playoffs and he better not try and spoil it.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

I am real tired, none of this probably makes any sense.


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## arenas809

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> I am real tired, none of this probably makes any sense.


You're right it doesn't...

I'd also venture to say a lot of you are confused, and the racial implications on this are ridiculous.

Keep on *****ing, you guys are starting to look like a serious contender out of the East...

While my Bulls remain clueless stuck in loserdom...


----------



## alphadog

I just don't get this trade. Van Horn was playing very well and fit into the team perfectly. He could post up...hit the deep 3..get out on the break and finish......plus give you 8+ boards a night while being a real threat to get a 30/14/5 against the right matchup. He could also play some PF. While Thomas is more athletic, KVH was very under-rated in that manner. He has very good quickness, great body control, and a great vertical for a guy his size. Thomas gives nothing as a defender and the team will have more trouble scoring now, I believe, because they have lost a legitmate spread the floor guy (perimeter shooting). I don't like it at all....mostly because I deplore TT's squandering of his abilities. He is a loser.


----------



## Jmonty580

I hate that people say KVh was good but Tim Thomas is more athletic. Darius Miles is more athletic than KVH but who would you rather have? This trade did not make us a better team at all, sure he might throw down a couple of nice dunks, but we need more than dunks to win games espeaically if Houston doesnt come out of the all-star break on fire.


----------



## thegza

At first, I was pretty dissapointed to see Van Horn go because I wasn't sure if I could see Tim Thomas fit in our system with Marbury but after sleeping on it I'm willing to give it a shot. Sure, this is a gamble but I doubt this will affect the team chemistry because Thomas can shoot the ball and unlike KVH he can drive it in and post-up. I've always admired the way he plays and I think he has the talent to be a 20 pt player if he starts. That year he was "6th Man Of The Year" was just more proof that he is a talented player.


I predict when he gets used to New York that he will atleast be a very solid player, atleast 17-18 points a game. Tim Thomas isn't a bad player guy, and I am sure he's happy to be moving to NY and having a fresh start with a guy like Marbury dishing it to him.


Cheer up, plus we got a big man in this trade. Good job, Isiah.


----------



## NYKBaller

Marbury finally has someone to alley hoop too, also players can improve their jump shots. It just depends if TT has that drive.

I liked TnT after watching the bucks/nets playoff game. Liked what he was doing, also they said he was working with Bernard King in the offseason so theirs already a knick connection.


----------



## benfica

*Remember, I said it when Isiah was hired*

Well, there goes all the white and foreign players. I was surprised he didn't trade KVH sooner, I am sure he tried. Look at what Isiah did to a young promising player in Austin Croshere. If Larry Bird was on the Knicks team I doubt he would have played much, even traded quickly since he was not athletic enough. This "we want to be more athletic" is just saying, we need an all black team in NY. How is TT and Narz more athletic than KVH. KVH can get down the court as well as any big man in the league. 

I am not shocked KVH was traded, he was playing well and NY was clicking chemistry wise. This was no time to change the chemistry of the team going into the second half of the season. This just shows that IT doesn't know how to run a team. People say that KVH had his best seasons with Marbury, but Marbury also has had is best games playing with KVH. Marbury will be so easy to defend now with no perimeter threat.

IT likes to take credit for developing O'neal, but look what did
to Al Harrington, bender, Austin Croshere, Jeff Foster, Jamaal Tinsley and he picks Fred Jones 14th overrall. No wonder Bird 
fired him.

This trade will make the Knicks much worse. Now there is absolutely no chemistry on the team.


----------



## Jmonty580

I think this trade was more of a " I dont want any of Layden's guys", than a racail issue. All you have to do is look at the stats and see that KVH is the better player, always has been and always will be. I just hope that Frank Williams, sweetney, harrington, deke and Anderson are some of the next victims because they were aquired under layden. If he could get rid of Allan Houston he would be gone too.


----------



## truth

I think you guys are missing the most important factor here..Isiah Thomas's ego and his belief that he can make underachivers realise their potential.

KVH is unqustionably a talented guy,but a player whose best days are behind him..He is not going to get better..

Tim Thomas is an underacheiver with tremendous potential..Michael Redd,his teamate says Tim Thomas can be as good as he wants to....Thats the issue...Will Tim Thomas put in the effort....

Isiah Thomas fully believes he can tap into a player and make him as good as he can be....Jermaine Oneal,came to Isiah,full of potential,and Isiah helped him develop that potetial...

Thats the HUGE difference between Thomas and Layden..Be it right or wrong,Isiah feels he can make a difference in a player acheiving greatness...Layden clearly does not have the ego or ability to do that.....

Only time will tell,but Tim Thomas is pretty good and potentially GREAT..KVH is pretty good,most of the time..Isiah knows this and is not in NY to keep his job,collect a paycheck,make the playoffs and get knocked off in the first round...He must take gambles now,thats why marbury is here,Tim Thomas is here and Vin baker may be here soon as well...


----------



## alphadog

Truth...most times I agree with you...but not on this one. KVH would have been a star on this team. The more they played, the better they(he) got. TT is MARGINALLY better as an athlete...KVH can run , jump, and finish with the best of them at 6'10. Plus, contrary to the above poster, he is a much better rebounder, shooter and scorer. Anyone that believes that players suddenly find a J after several years in the NBA are deluding themselves. TT is the kind of player that gets coachs and GMs fired. They look so great one time and then stink another. If TT starts and they get RW, where do the boards come from? Where do the long jumpers that open up the middle come from? Van Horn will be an all star long before TT gets a sniff of it. If you want an athletic big guy that doesn't play good D, at least get one with an offensive game and rebounds(see John Wallace). Please show me the last guy to make a major improvement after 6 or 7 yeras in the L...maybe I am missing someone but I think what you see is what you get after so much time.


----------



## arenas809

*Re: Remember, I said it when Isiah was hired*



> Originally posted by <b>benfica</b>!
> Well, there goes all the white and foreign players. I was surprised he didn't trade KVH sooner, I am sure he tried. Look at what Isiah did to a young promising player in Austin Croshere.


The racial implications you guys put on all this are just stupid...beyond stupid.

Newsflash, there's a white GM and white coach in Indiana and Croshere only plays 12.8 MPG...

Under Isiah he played 16.9 and 12.9 MPG...

I love when people play the race card, they really don't know what they're talking about, their argument holds no water and thus don't have a real valid point to stand on.


----------



## son of oakley

*Re: Re: Remember, I said it when Isiah was hired*



> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> The racial implications you guys put on all this are just stupid...beyond stupid.


Plus any list of bball people Isiah respects has to include Laimbeer, coach Knight and coach Daley. He wanted Daley to coach this team. WTF, a black racist paying a cracker to be boss? No, it doesn't work like that.


----------



## truth

Hey alpha,
I like KVH but I have always felt he was wrong for this team..By this team,i mean with marbury,houston,Kt and Deke..This team needs a slasher (like spree),and i dont mean Shandon Anderson

I liked KVH when he was going to be paired with Dyss,an awesome low post presence...

When we got marbury,everything changed...Ward and Eisly as well as Dyss were gone and its clear I Thomas wants a more athletic dynamic team.With no post presense(hence vin baker) you have no chioce...

I dont consider KVH terribly athletic anymore..Somehwere along the way he lost his hops..He never used to get his shot blocked and now it seems every time he penetrates he gets rejected or gets stripped...

This team is potentially more balanced and from what I understand the trade was Doleac and KVH for Naz Mohammed and Tim Thomas...It was a package deal,al or none...

If Houston doesnt come back,we may regret this trade.I am assuming he will be OK...TT is a 6'10" small foward with a world of potential..He can create for himself and hes a slasher..marbury and Houston can stroke it,and KT is fine within 17 feet...

Isiah is easy to figure out...He likes untapped potential.His ego is big enough that he believes he can help Thomas be great.You are right..Its a gamble..But there were ALOT of nights KVH sat out the 4th quarter.....Superstars dont sit on the bench in the 4th quarter...


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> You're right it doesn't...
> 
> I'd also venture to say a lot of you are confused, and the racial implications on this are ridiculous.
> 
> Keep on *****ing, you guys are starting to look like a serious contender out of the East...
> 
> While my Bulls remain clueless stuck in loserdom...



Easy junior I was talking about the Bush diatribe, looking over it, the grammar might not be cogent but the context and the accusations are. 


The racial implications might seem ridiculous to you and that's fine but, some people here have noticed a pattern since the moment he set foot in here. 


People want to point out " hey he's not a racist he wanted daley or bill to coach" yeah maybe, but he also turned away fratello in lieu of Lenn friggin Wilkens


I see a bunch of threads where people here think we are some how better off defensively.


Wake up guys Van Horn is the better defender. How scary is that?



Other people point out the fact that H20 and Van Horn were similar in playing style.


What the hell? Two people who have great midrange games is somehow a burden to us. That's what you need to be a friggin zone, that's the whole dam point. 


You need a guy who can penetrate ( Marbury) and wing players who can screen and roll, pick and pop, and hit the open J. Not slashers. For gods sake guys TIM THOMAS SHOOTS THE SAME AMOUNT OF 3's AS VH.


I think the only confusion going on here is about TT's game. You guys seem to think he is some Darius miles type when he is closer to Van Horn then you think.


It's a downgrade in talent. We would have had Nazir anyway. Use your noodle we got boned on this trade. Unless things click real well, steph will be smothered by the zone, and this team will look very different.


----------



## son of oakley

fan, you're right that TT does shoot a lot of three's, and his shooting percentages are damn close to VH, so why are you assuming we lost our ability to break the zone? He's as good at it as VH. At least he can pop or slash. Aside from losing 2 rebounds per game, which Nazr will probably make up for us, what the heck are we losing?


----------



## NYKBaller

I think TnT will do well here, maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm right. The Pistons will tell us tommorow...


----------



## nyksju

i dont think this trade does a lot. i think it slightly improves us. idk if i was isiah i prob would not have don it


----------



## truth

"What the hell? Two people who have great midrange games is somehow a burden to us. That's what you need to be a friggin zone, that's the whole dam point. "

You are only telling half the story....Great midrange game,very poor taking it to the hole,and terrible passers...that will not beat a friggin zone....

The mavs dont beat zones because they are all shooters...Every player on that team can shoot,penetrate and pass..Go put 5 VASHON LENARDS and dell currys on the floor and see how ad you get spanked.....

All i know is Chaney beched KVH in the 4th quarter as did Lenny and that speaks volumes.....

Alot of guys second guessed the marbury trade,as did i to a certain degree...Ill give isiah the benefit of doubt until proven otherwuse...

How could we have gotten NAZ????he makes 5.5 million,doleac makes 1.5....

Racism???based on what?????????????????????????
lets break it down

black guys traded black guys recieved
Ward penny
Eisly norris
Dyss marbury
Spoon mohammed

white guys traded white guys recieved
vah horn trebanski
lampe
rights to vujanic (doesnt count)

so,Isiah traded away 4 black guys for four black guys..sounds reasonable,not very racist...he also traded 2 white guys for 1 white guy....not terribly racist.....So,please tell me,what has he done that would lead you to believe winning is not his sole motive...And keep in mind the Nba is probably 80% black,so every white guy traded you should get 4 blacks in return..i would say the numbers of the trades strongly indicate isiah is anything BUT racist....feel free to speculate otherwise,ill stick to the facts


----------



## Zuca

And now Isiah can run the last Knicks trade...

NY gets Patterson
Dal gets Shandon Anderson
Por gets Abdul-Wahad


----------



## Rashidi

> Marbury finally has someone to alley hoop too,


Great, just what we need, more turnovers.
Call me when we trade for Kenyon Martin.



> All i know is Chaney beched KVH in the 4th quarter as did Lenny and that speaks volumes.....


Only depending on the matchups. There's an obvious disadvantage vs 3 guard alignments.

And please don't act like TT won't see any bench time in the 4th quarter.



> white guys traded white guys recieved
> vah horn trebanski
> lampe
> rights to vujanic (doesnt count)


Sorry, but you forgot Doleac. And Vujanic counts.

They traded 4 white guys for 1 white guy.



> i would say the numbers of the trades strongly indicate isiah is anything BUT racist


I don't think Isiah is racist, but I do believe he prefers athletic players over shooters. You can attribute this all the way back to his comments about Larry Bird. It's obvious that he's either unwilling to use these players, or that he doesn't know how. Croshere was very effective for Indiana, and then IT benched him. He was playing a lot more than 16 and 12 mpg before IT came along.

IT obviously prefers Moochie Norris > Milos Vujanic. Because Norris is athletic.

IT obviously prefers TT > KVH. Because TT is athletic.

IT obviously prefers Sheed > KT. Because I saw Sheed get an alley oop in his last game as a Blazer, and KT hardly ever dunks.

IT obviously prefers athleticism > chemistry.


----------



## truth

rashidi,you are at best half right

lets review
yes i missed doleac,but trading the rights to someone does not ensure he will be playing for you..so he traded .5 of a white guy:sour: 

"There's an obvious disadvantage vs 3 guard alignments"
true if you are KVH..he is seriously defensively(laterally) challenged..If TT is worse than KVH,we are in BIG #$%^ trouble..

TT may be beched in the 4th..until it happens its speculation.KVH definetly got benched..


"IT obviously prefers Moochie Norris > Milos Vujanic. Because Norris is athletic."....CMON,be real...We had the rights to Vujanic,nothing more....You are joking, ia ssume

IT obviously prefers TT > KVH. Because TT is athletic.
Very true,and he must believe the upside is there

IT obviously prefers Sheed > KT. Because I saw Sheed get an alley oop in his last game as a Blazer, and KT hardly ever dunks.

No he likes Sheed better because he is better..period

IT obviously prefers athleticism > chemistry.
No he like winning.....His Knick record indicates that..layden liked chemistry and losing.His record indicates that
:sigh: :sigh:


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

Use the goddam quotes feature how the hell else can anyone respond to you without a ****ing headache jesus.


In answer to your question take a look at the trade. Nazr could have been had much cheaper from the hawks who are looking to dump salary. There was no reason to give up KVH to get so little in return.


As for beating the zone, yes you need the ball to rotate KVH 2.0 ast per game, guess what TT 2.0 ast per game. Dallas beats the zone because they have a mobile seven footer who can slash but also has an incredible release.


The also have micheal finely one of the top 5 guards in the league who has an all around game. He is a huge reason why you can't throw zone at that team. The other is Sean Bradley.



We have neither, so we had to compromise VH can slash to the rim as can houston just not very well, Steph however could do that. You see what you're not getting here is that VH and H20 spaced the floor out reducing the other team to playing Steph 1 on 1. He would then drive and dish as the defense collapsed on him. Two shooting options meant each shooter had single coverage.


Like I said I think you need to do some research on just who we got in return for TT. TT has been in the league for what 6 years now? He has no potential nor is he young, he puts up worse stats than KVH in pretty much all areas. He isn't as good of a shooter.


Just because he can finish around the basket doesn't mean he is somehow a better or more efficent scorer. Noodle your use.


----------



## Rashidi

> IT obviously prefers athleticism > chemistry.
> No he like winning.....His Knick record indicates that.


He Knick record? He hasn't even been with the team a full season, and Tim Thomas has played zero games with the Knicks. Other than the Marbury trade (a move that throws away what little future the team had), all his other moves have been so-so. TT reminds me of a guy that would score 20 ppg on a lottery team. I guess we'll find out, since the Knicks will be right back there in 2-3 years.

IT has something we call a track record. It's called I-N-D-I-A-N-A. In Indiana, he prefered athleticism over chemistry. And it showed. He had the most talented team in the east and all he ever amassed was slightly better than a .500 record and first round exits. Look at what Brad Miller is doing in Sacramento right now. He would never have done that under IT.



> but trading the rights to someone does not ensure he will be playing for you


Vujanic had a better chance of playing meaningful minutes for the Knicks than Cezery Trybanski.



> until it happens its speculation.KVH definetly got benched..


Huh? Perhaps you would help your credibility by recalling games where KVH was benched in the 4th quarter, and why.

If KVH got benched for his defense, then we'll be seeing that from TT too.



> We had the rights to Vujanic,nothing more....You are joking, ia ssume


Right, and now we have the 4 year contract (or is it 5?) of a player that's even worse than "my" Howard Eisley. For all your assumptions that Vujanic was not coming, you know very little of the negotiations that were talked about in the papers, much less the type of player Vujanic even is.



> Very true,and he must believe the upside is there


Doesn't mean TT is BETTER. KVH has already proven to be a better offensive player and rebounder.



> No he likes Sheed better because he is better..period


Not at rebounding and defense, nor chemistry.


----------



## truth

dam,Nybiggestfan,you were making so much sense until you brought up sean bradley.... 

noodle time:grinning:


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> dam,Nybiggestfan,you were making so much sense until you brought up sean bradley....
> 
> noodle time:grinning:



You need to watch the mavs play. When he scores 10 or more points they always win. He is the focal point of their defense and his 10-15 range allows them to slash to the rim better. 


Noodle time for you!


----------



## Rashidi

PWNed? Indeed, it would seem so. 

*j00 R TeH PWNDZ.*


----------



## truth

Rashidi,you of all people should shut the #$%^% up when it comes to track records!!!!!!!!!:yes: 



> IT has something we call a track record



Cmon,you are the biggest supporter,psycophant of Scott Layden,he of the 85 million payroll and .333 winning percentage..Dont you start chiming in with track records.....Not until you are man enough to finally answer what Isiah must achieve to be deemed successful..A question you constantly wiggle out of...



> Vujanic had a better chance of playing meaningful minutes for the Knicks than Cezery Trybanski


At least trybanski is in the states..Then again Vujanic would have been here if that moron you support would have been fired last year

And last but not least........

If you think KT is better than rasheed,the laws of supply and demand will substantiate your beliefs...You are certainly welcome to sign KT for more than rasheed...Lets see if the GMs in the league agree with you


----------



## truth

> You need to watch the mavs play. When he scores 10 or more points they always win. He is the focal point of their defense and his 10-15 range allows them to slash to the rim better


NYBiggest fan...you sadden me with that statement...Before i give you a lesson in correaltion and independednt and dependent variables,take a deep breath and use your noodle....

In fact that statement is so statistically biased and flawed,It deserves

USE your $%^& NOODLE:yes: 

You are fast approaching rashidi levels of linear regression


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> NYBiggest fan...you sadden me with that statement...Before i give you a lesson in correaltion and independednt and dependent variables,take a deep breath and use your noodle....
> 
> In fact that statement is so statistically biased and flawed,It deserves
> 
> USE your $%^& NOODLE:yes:
> 
> You are fast approaching rashidi levels of linear regression



Lets be honest. You've never seen the Mavs play have you. Nor are you familiar with the Bradley minutes/ Winning percentage statistic. Go ask them if you don't want to take my word for it.


Bradley scoring is a key piece in the Mavs winning, last year and the year before that and the year before that. It just makes everyone elses job easier when the center has to come out from under the hole and guard him. How do you not know this?


----------



## JerryWest

horrible trade for the Knicks, great trade for the Bucks


----------



## truth

you realise that all this is in good fun......

yes you are right about my involvement with the mavs other than against the knicks and sometimes the nets....

the few times i have watched the mavs play,i dont even think bradley played....


----------



## Rashidi

> Rashidi,you of all people should shut the #$%^% up when it comes to track records!!!!!!!!!


And you should heed your own words when it comes to "oversensitivity".



> Cmon,you are the biggest supporter,psycophant of Scott Layden,he of the 85 million payroll and .333 winning percentage..Dont you start chiming in with track records.....


And 2 Finals appearances.



> Then again Vujanic would have been here if that moron you support would have been fired last year


Big talk from a small fry. Do you talk to your wife with that mouth?



> If you think KT is better than rasheed,the laws of supply and demand will substantiate your beliefs...


I'm sure Isiah Rider is better than DerMarr Johnson, why don't we sign him too? Then we can cut Mike Sweetney and bring in Dennis Rodman. Bringing in their talent, how could we possibly lose?



> NYBiggest fan...you sadden me with that statement...Before i give you a lesson in correaltion and independednt and dependent variables,take a deep breath and use your noodle....


Why don't you get off your own crotch, almighty one? Who died and made you king?



> You are fast approaching rashidi levels of linear regression


I wonder if any moderators are taking note of your expressed personal opinion of me, almighty one?



> Bradley scoring is a key piece in the Mavs winning, last year and the year before that and the year before that. It just makes everyone elses job easier when the center has to come out from under the hole and guard him. How do you not know this?


Maybe he was practicing the Rashidi method determining a player's value despite not seeing him play. Except he threw out all the steps in the method, and went straight to the determination. What a judgemental guy.



> the few times i have watched the mavs play,i dont even think bradley played....


See, he even admits he never saw Bradley play. Yet you are so adamant about Bradley's suckatude. At least I bring up various points in my arguements. What a joke.


----------



## rainman

all these implications that somehow isaah is moving guys because they're white is pretty rediculous. i just happen to think he was a poor coach and is a poor gm, nothing more.


----------



## Rashidi

And who's to say IT won't have a .333 record in 2 years either? You're only capable of seeing what's in front of you, which is why you can't comprehend how I could be high on Layden and low on IT. Layden trades for Van Horn, you all moan and groan. IT trades Van Horn, you all moan and groan. Am I the only one that saw this coming? Everybody was stuck on some KVH/Wallace pipe dream, as if IT would wave a magic wand and turn KVH into a better player. NY isn't a city for realists. Damn Yankees.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Lets be honest. You've never seen the Mavs play have you. Nor are you familiar with the Bradley minutes/ Winning percentage statistic. Go ask them if you don't want to take my word for it.
> 
> 
> Bradley scoring is a key piece in the Mavs winning, last year and the year before that and the year before that. It just makes everyone elses job easier when the center has to come out from under the hole and guard him. How do you not know this?


You're kidding, right?


----------



## 24-7

He is actually right. When Bradley is in the game teams are less likely to try and take it to the basket. (He is a tall guy) It's easier to miss a jumper then it is to hit a basket right under the basket when a 7 footer isn't around to block your shot.



> Originally posted by <b>RoddneyThaRippa</b>!
> 
> 
> You're kidding, right?


----------



## truth

I cant believe I am hearing this.......

i was trying to be kind but Rashidi got me going as usual....

The statement that The mavs always win when Bradley scores 10 points or more is absolutely ridiculous,silly and not even true....

First of all he has scored 10 points or more only 3 times this year...3 #$^%^$ times.....They won two of them......

I dont think a subset of 3 is a very good sampling size...
So rashidi,you bandwagon jumper,once again you have egg all over your face,are dead wrong as usual,yet you make silly statements just to hop on...

I have seen Bradley play..he sukkks...I havent seen him play recently ,becuse he doesnt get off the bench....I am not shocked you went along with this BS..There are much more accurate staements that can be said of bradley...Just not this one




> You need to watch the mavs play. When he scores 10 or more points they always win. He is the focal point of their defense and his 10-15 range allows them to slash to the rim better


----------



## son of oakley

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> Damn Yankees.


Where you from boy? You speaking as a resident alien or a Mets fan?


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> I cant believe I am hearing this.......
> 
> i was trying to be kind but Rashidi got me going as usual....
> 
> The statement that The mavs always win when Bradley scores 10 points or more is absolutely ridiculous,silly and not even true....
> 
> First of all he has scored 10 points or more only 3 times this year...3 #$^%^$ times.....They won two of them......
> 
> I dont think a subset of 3 is a very good sampling size...
> So rashidi,you bandwagon jumper,once again you have egg all over your face,are dead wrong as usual,yet you make silly statements just to hop on...
> 
> I have seen Bradley play..he sukkks...I havent seen him play recently ,becuse he doesnt get off the bench....I am not shocked you went along with this BS..There are much more accurate staements that can be said of bradley...Just not this one



Actually I posted

Bradley scoring is a key piece in the Mavs winning, last year and the year before that and the year before that. It just makes everyone elses job easier when the center has to come out from under the hole and guard him. How do you not know this?


As in last year. Now that the team is different and he is injured things are different. 


Seriously, ask anyone who know's anything at all about the Mav's and they'll confirm it. Hell if you google hard enough you'll find the announcers and Nelson himself saying the same thing.



I'd advise you to drop this before you end up looking like a fool. The mavs are probably my 2nd favorite team in the league. 


Pose the question to the mavs board, see what you find.


For instance if you note the near 20 times he scored 10 points last year, you'll find they lost a total of two of those games. Use your noodle, think about the mavs system and players. This should be obvious. 2002 he was mostly injured and almost never started. 2001 however you'll notice a similar statistic.


I know you were hoping to catch Rashidi of guard, but you failed again.


----------



## truth

> And you should heed your own words when it comes to "oversensitivity".


if you noticed there was a smile at the end...that means i was joking,though you have NEVER said what it would take to deem isiah successful..I assume anything over a .333 winning percentage from your love for layden



> Big talk from a small fry. Do you talk to your wife with that mouth


no,but i talk that way to yours:yes: 

I am sorry if i can not close my eyes and agree with all the stats you come up with...


> Who died and made you king


If you want to believe


> You need to watch the mavs play. When he scores 10 or more points they always win


then go right ahead..sorry,i just wont blindly follow you down the path of ignorance....

you make strong strong statements and never back them up...I am still waiting for you to state what Isiah has to accomplish to be deemed successful in your eyes....


----------



## truth

i can only look like a fool if you would have said last year and not



> You need to watch the mavs play. When he scores 10 or more points they always win


to me,that statement meant currently....if i watch the mavs play,the odds are i wont see bradley scoring 10 points


----------



## truth

Also,you did make the statement that "they ALWAYS win...Dont you think thats a bit of an exaggeration????

I would also question the robustness of your statement
The last 4 years bradley has averaged

3.2 pts 2003/2004
6.7 2002/2003
4.1 2001/2002
7.1 200o/2001

so how many times did he actually score 10 points??
in 2003/2004 he did it 3 times and they won 2 of 3
in 2002/2003 he did it 27 times and they won 25 of 27
in 2001/2002 he did it 5 times and they won 2 of 5

so in one year the statement is very true..Keep in mind they also won without him,but not at the same clip...

The other 2 years combined,bradley scored 10 points or more 8 times and the Mavs won 4 or only half....8 times?????and they won 4 of those games???In two years????Sorry dude,NUMBERS DONT LIE.....:no: 

Your statement is valid for one year out of 3,which would make that statement a gross exaggeration of the truth...

and to be honest what the #$^ does this mean???



> The also have micheal finely one of the top 5 guards in the league who has an all around game. He is a huge reason why you can't throw zone at that team. The other is Sean Bradley.


How in the world is Shawn Bradley a zone buster????Are you for real????The guy averages 5 points per game the last 4 years...

USE YOUR NOODLE


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## NYKBaller

Anyway, Nazr is wearing #2 and TNT is wearing #5, Czeary gave the number up.


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## dcrono3

I kind of agree with truth, One year out of three does like a pretty weak sample. Yes, there were 27 games in that one season, more than the 8 in the other two combined, but it is possible that Bradly had a fluke year in 2002/2003. Dallas played very well as a team that year if I recall correctly. Personally, even though the statement might be true, I do not think the sample size is big enough for any conclusion to be made. Bradly simply does not play enough. 

At first I thoguht the Knicks made a pertty bad trade when I heard about it, but after some thoguht it might not be so bad. Nazar is a pretty good role player IMO, look at his states were he averages over 25 minutes a game. He could be a very productive ppost player, especially in the East. The thing about Van Horn is that it does not seem that he would become better than he is rightnow. The 17/7 with decent FG and 3pt % is probably all you are going to get. Thomas isn't in Van Horn's class right now, but he does have potential to become better. I'm pretty sure Thomas is from NY too. When the last NY native came (marbury) he improved when playing for the Knicks, so hopefully Thomas can do the same. Nazar is a better fir than Dolec, and Thomas isn't too bad right now. I'll give IT the benefit of doubt now, since Thomas could turn out to be a really good player in NY. The Knicks winning or losing this trade would depend on how Thomas developes, IMO.


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## Rashidi

> Your statement is valid for one year out of 3,which would make that statement a gross exaggeration of the truth...


Why is it that your stats are more valid than everyone else's stats, almighty one? Were you just born smarter than the rest of us? Like he already said, Bradley is injured this season, and is injured a lot in previous years. And you're only looking at his points, not his rebounds or blocks. He doesn't need to score 10 points this season, with Jamison and Walker added. But I'm sure you stopped to consider that in your almighty evaluation.



> I havent seen him play recently ,becuse he doesnt get off the bench....


Could be because he spent most of season hurt. 

Maybe you think Danny Fortson and Eduardo Najera are more effective center. Then again, you probably never stopped to consider that Dallas only other option after the "sucky" Bradley are 2 guys that aren't even 6'9, you just heard the name Bradley and made assumptions without looking at the rest of the roster. It's funny how you're not putting your money where your mouth is and venturing to another board to find out the answer. You just assume that you HAVE to be right, probably because you consider yourself smarter than those involved.



> you make strong strong statements and never back them up...


Actually when I do this you try to discredit my answer, call me a fool, and then tell me to give you an answer more fitting. And then you arrogantly whine when I don't do it for you. Boo-hoo.


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## Rashidi

> Thomas isn't in Van Horn's class right now, but he does have potential to become better. I'm pretty sure Thomas is from NY too. When the last NY native came (marbury) he improved when playing for the Knicks, so hopefully Thomas can do the same.


Huh? Marbury improved? When did this happen?

Why is Bradley a fluke, but when Marbury plays 18 games in NY, he's suddenly improved? He's not doing anything that he couldn't do before. He's just CHOOSING to pass more.


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## mavsman

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Actually I posted
> 
> Bradley scoring is a key piece in the Mavs winning, last year and the year before that and the year before that. It just makes everyone elses job easier when the center has to come out from under the hole and guard him. How do you not know this?
> 
> 
> As in last year. Now that the team is different and he is injured things are different.
> 
> 
> Seriously, ask anyone who know's anything at all about the Mav's and they'll confirm it. Hell if you google hard enough you'll find the announcers and Nelson himself saying the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd advise you to drop this before you end up looking like a fool. The mavs are probably my 2nd favorite team in the league.
> 
> 
> Pose the question to the mavs board, see what you find.
> 
> 
> For instance if you note the near 20 times he scored 10 points last year, you'll find they lost a total of two of those games. Use your noodle, think about the mavs system and players. This should be obvious. 2002 he was mostly injured and almost never started. 2001 however you'll notice a similar statistic.
> 
> 
> I know you were hoping to catch Rashidi of guard, but you failed again.


Its a fact that when Bradley is in the game for the Mavericks they
are better. I think the difference is on the defensive end of the
court. Bradley is capable of hitting the 12-18 ft set shot but he
is not a big threat offensively.

I believe it was last year but Bradley had the 2nd best over/under
on the team. Only Nowitzki has a better over/under. His impact
on the game is undeniable. 

Yes sometimes he looks like a dork out there. Sometimes he
misses a two footer around the rim and sometimes he commits
stupid fouls but when he is on the floor but the Mavericks outscore
thier opponents more than when anyone (other than Dirk) is
on the floor.


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## son of oakley

> I'm pretty sure Thomas is from NY too. When the last NY native came (marbury) he improved when playing for the Knicks, so hopefully Thomas can do the same.


He's from New Jersey, and I've seen reports that last year he was begging the team to trade him to the Knicks. I like getting players who are from the area very happy to be here. Chances are they'll want to finish out their careers here, which gives them motivation to perform and puts them on best behavior.


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## truth

Its clear that in the 2002/2003 year the mavs played very well when Bradley scored over 10....

25 out of 27 is proof of that....
However that is the exception to the rule,not the norm...

That is all i was contesting....You brought up that the Mavs ALWAYS win giving his scoring and you also implied he is the reason you cant zone the mavs,which i strongly disagree with..
Now you are changing your argument,very you know who...

You should have said in 2002/2003 the mavs win over 95% of the time when SB scores 10 or more..so i am not the fool you think i may be

The guy averages 5 pts per game the last 4 years and he narely plays other than last year..Talk about POTENTIAL

Hey,i am sure you dont agree with everything i post

Now,let me respond to Rashidi,my favorite BBall sparring partner


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## dcrono3

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Huh? Marbury improved? When did this happen?
> 
> Why is Bradley a fluke, but when Marbury plays 18 games in NY, he's suddenly improved? He's not doing anything that he couldn't do before. He's just CHOOSING to pass more.


Hey, Rashidi, calm down. You say you're not oversensitive, but you are right now. First, I NEVER said that Bradley was a fluke. I just said that it is POSSIBLE that the 02/03 season was a fluke. It was the only recent season in which he performed decent/well. You look at the stats in the last 3 years, and Bradley really hasn't done much. Maybe he does stretch the defense for Dallas, I can't be quite sure because Bradley doesn't really play that often and I don't really watch all Dallas games. I'm probably a bit biased against Bradley, since i'm also a Sixers fan and I can't believe the sixers wasted the #2 pick on him in 1993. Bradley is injured too often for my tastes, so even if he does help when he plays he doesn't play enough to make a big difference at all. I also think Bradley is soft. However, if you read my post a bit more clearly, I thought I made it clear that i don't have a real opinion on Bradley stretching defenses. "Personally, even though the statement [Bradley helping Dallas stretch defenses] might be true, I do not think the sample size is big enough for any conclusion to be made. " I'm just saying that we shouldn't decide stuff based on statistics with such a small sample size. Chill, I wasn't really dissing Bradley, just stating my opinions. 

Marbury has improved since arriving in NY. All of his stats (besides turnovers, which can be offset by the improvement of assists IMO, and a slight decrease in points, because he passes more)have improved in NY. Matbury's stats are better in NY than in Pheonix this season, you can not deny that. Granted, Marbury has a very small sample size too. I probably shouldn't make the conclusion that Marbury is a better player in NY. However, are you saying that Marbury hasn't improved/played better this season after joining the Knicks? I think he has, just look as his stats. 

Also, Rashidi, are you saying that when Marbury decided to pass more he did not improve as a player? Basketball is not all about athletic ability and skills, it is also mental. You have to make the right decisions at the right time, and Marbury is doing that right now. He distributes more and has improved his own play because of that. When Iverson played for the Oylmpic team this summer, he played extremely well, mostly because he passes a lot more. He was a improved player in the sense that he weas a better b-ball player on the court. Iverson could always pass, it s not like Iverson couldn't pass the ball to others before. Are you telling me that Marbury choosing to pass isn't an improvement for him? Improvement isn't always about being able to do new things, it's also about being able to do the things you could do before more consistently. 

Again, I admit that 18 games is too small a sample size. However, considering that Marbury has been playing pretty consistently since arriving (Marbury has had bad days but all players do, and Marbury's bad days are pretty rare) I think Marbury can maintain this pace until the end of the season and beyond. Imight be wrong, but I will stand by my thoughts right now. 

Rashidi, I want to know why you think Marbury hasn't improved and why you think choosing to pass more is not an improvement for Marbury. You should not be so oversensitive too, and this goes for every poster here, but lets try to not diss everyone for their opinions and call them crazy (unless they really are, like suggestig a Kobe for Frank Williams trade) Lets keep this board more positive, it helps the qualities of posts. 

BTW, did anyone notice that in the 3 games Bradley scored 10+ points. The 2 Dallas wins were against Chicago and Philly, who are, sadly, teams with very poor records right now and are close to the bottom of the league. The loss was against Indiana, the team with the best record in the League. Is Bradley getting his stats and wins against weak teams? I wonder.


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## son of oakley

Ther seems to be two separate concepts getting collapsed here. 1) Is Bradley useful to the Mavs? 2) Is there something magical in his attaining 10 points or better for them?

Of course Bradley is useful to the Mavs, he's their only inside presence and defender. Doesn't mean that there aren't a slew of mediocre guys who couldn't fill that role. Nazr probably being one. It's also no coincidence they're shopping guys to get another/better tough inside presence.

As for the 10 points, looking at that team over the last few years, they don't look like they have trouble finding points and wins. They seem able to do that with or without Bradley. But they have trouble getting stops, and possibly using the shot clock wisely. Bradley does help with some stops, as would other bigs.


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## dcrono3

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> 
> 
> He's from New Jersey, and I've seen reports that last year he was begging the team to trade him to the Knicks. I like getting players who are from the area very happy to be here. Chances are they'll want to finish out their careers here, which gives them motivation to perform and puts them on best behavior.


I totally agree, I like hometown players because for one they probably grew up as fans for the local teams and would want to play well for them. For example, if any one of us Knicks fans were able to play in the NBA and able to play for the Knicks, wouldn't you be more motivated than playing for the Wizards or Clippers?


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## truth

rashidi quote:


> Why is it that your stats are more valid than everyone else's stats, almighty one? Were you just born smarter than the rest of us? Like he already said, Bradley is injured this season, and is injured a lot in previous years. And you're only looking at his points, not his rebounds or blocks. He doesn't need to score 10 points this season


KnicksBiggestFan original quote


> You need to watch the mavs play. When he scores 10 or more points they always win


Are you out of your mind?????Can you focus and not change you argument midsentence??

KBF made the statement,not me..I questioned the statement he made...Rashidi,i am only looking at his points because KBF made the direct statement of Bradley scoring..It was a one year deviation from the norm...The guy averages 5 #$%^ points the last 4 years..wake the #$%^ up and stick with the statement by the poster

Numnut,I responded to KBF..I couldnt care less about Shawn Bradley...He made the statement and it is not accurate..You want to change your argument and bring up something else go right ahead..Ill respond and then you will change your initial arguement


I enjoy your posts....You are the ultimate hindsight analyst,and rarely speak objectively..if you did you would drop the layden love and give credit where credit is due


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## truth

> Ther seems to be two separate concepts getting collapsed here. 1) Is Bradley useful to the Mavs? 2) Is there something magical in his attaining 10 points or better for them?


They arent being collapsed....The whole thing started with talking about zoning the mavs..KBF made some very sound arguements and then said



> The also have micheal finely one of the top 5 guards in the league who has an all around game. He is a huge reason why you can't throw zone at that team. The other is Sean Bradley


I never thought of sean Bradley as a zone buster,as he is usually injured and when not he scores 5 pts per game(last 4 years)

I then question the validity of the arguement and KBF responded with


> You need to watch the mavs play. When he scores 10 or more points they always win


That is what I really questioned....Never Bradleys effectiveness when hes healthy or playing up to his potential...Upon being called a fool,i had to open up a can of arse wupping for my buddy rashidi

FOR THE RECORD,when bradley scored 10 or more in 2002/2003 the Mavs Played over.950 ball..Its undisputable..They did not ALWAYS win...However in 2001 and 2004 the guy scored 10 pts or more 8 times...they won 4....End of topic


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## Rashidi

"Also, Rashidi, are you saying that when Marbury decided to pass more he did not improve as a player?"

By that same regard, if a player shoots more, does he improve? If he shoots less, has he regressed?

Marbury has come in trying to make a good first impression. I don't think it'll last more than a year. He's passing more and scoring less. Jason Kidd averaged 10 apg, back when he didn't have to score 16-18 ppg. Now he's down to 9. Marbury traditionally averages 20+ ppg with 8 apg. Right now he's averaging fewer points and more assists. I don't expect that trend to last once he takes more freedom in the offense.

Part of the reason he also had to shoot more in Phoenix is that well, Penny is average offensively, their center sucked offensively, and Amare can only dunk. The Knicks have more offensive players that can hit shots, which is why Marbury has shot less and passed more. It doesn't mean he's improved. He just has different players around him. I don't consider Kidd a better PG for what he's done in NJ. I take a look at what he did before NJ too. And the fact remains that Kidd took Phoenix to the 2nd or 1st round every year, and Marbury couldn't. Marbury needed took a fairly identical Suns team to a sub .500 record. They needed to draft Amare to get to the first round. If Kidd had Amare in Phoenix, the Suns would have been a 50 win team.



> When Iverson played for the Oylmpic team this summer, he played extremely well, mostly because he passes a lot more.


Because he was playing PG. The only other PGs on the team were Kidd and Mike Bibby.



> He was a improved player in the sense that he weas a better b-ball player on the court. Iverson could always pass, it s not like Iverson couldn't pass the ball to others before.


That doesn't mean Iverson improved, it means his role changed. Very big difference. It's not hard to look good either when you're passing to all-stars.



> Are you telling me that Marbury choosing to pass isn't an improvement for him? Improvement isn't always about being able to do new things, it's also about being able to do the things you could do before more consistently.


He hasn't improved, but Marbury shooting less is probably a better offensive structure if the team wants to win. When the Knicks played Marbury, it would usually come down to a final shot. Everybody knew Marbury was shooting it. So he'd get double teamed, shut down by Charlie Ward and friends. Of all the game tying baskets or game winners Marbury attempted against the Knicks, how many went down? Very few. Maybe 1 out of 6.


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## truth

Dont you think marbury may be influenced by one of the greatest point guards ever,his very own GM Isiah Thomas?????

i would say that has alot to do with his game..I would think Lenny Wilkens also has alot to do with it as well...


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## NYCbballFan

The way the Knicks are being shaped right now reminds more of what Larry Brown did in Philly to shape a team around AI. I think in the long-run, the team will be based more on Marbury's scoring than on his play-making.


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## dcrono3

"By that same regard, if a player shoots more, does he improve? If he shoots less, has he regressed?"

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. My statement was only intended for Marbury, not for all players. Of course players shouldn't be evaluated on how many shots they take. However, Marbury has improved, in the sense that he is a better player for his team now, afer coming to NY. The Marbury now is a better fit for the Knicks than the Marbury in Pheonix. That is why I think he improved, at least as a point guard, because he is distributing more. And I expect this to last.

"Part of the reason he also had to shoot more in Phoenix is that well, Penny is average offensively, their center sucked offensively, and Amare can only dunk. The Knicks have more offensive players that can hit shots, which is why Marbury has shot less and passed more."

I guess you could say that somewhat, but the Suns weren't too shaby offensively when Marbury was there. Marion and Amare are a better scoring duo than Van Horn and Thomas. The suns lacked a shooter like Houston, but Joe Johnson was playing pretty well when he got the minutes even before Marbury was traded. Sure the suns had no center, but Mutumbo isn't a force on the offensive end either. Penny is as good as Anderson is. 

"That doesn't mean Iverson improved, it means his role changed. Very big difference. It's not hard to look good either when you're passing to all-stars."
"He hasn't improved, but Marbury shooting less is probably a better offensive structure if the team wants to win. "

I guess we just have a different opinion on what counts as improved. I stand by my thoughts that Marbury has improved because he is a better fit with his team now. Sometimes, playing a different role can change a player and "improve" him. That player would be playing better in a different role and be "improved." Thats just my opinion, anyway, I know it is close to impossible to get Rashidi to change his mind.

BTW, I wasn't comparing Marbury to Kidd at all, so I don't get what Marbury not leading the Suns into the second round and Kidd doing it was all about.


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## Rashidi

> BTW, I wasn't comparing Marbury to Kidd at all, so I don't get what Marbury not leading the Suns into the second round and Kidd doing it was all about.


I was quoting someone else.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

Okay two things. First, if you want to argue from a purely semantical standpoint, yes The mavs do not win all the time. The win 29 out of 35 times. Does that make you happy or do you not see that what you have there is a high winning perentage. There is a direct correspondence, not in just pure statistics but in the idea that if the mavericks allow Bradley 5-10 touches, that means they are doing the following

A) Rotating the ball more often

B) Driving to the hoop more often i.e. Bradley will hit two shots, than on the next he will pull the center out to guard him ( 10-15 feet). This makes it easier for Dirk to slash to the hole or.... Micheal Finely, a sick dunker, to jam it. 

C). It also means that Bradley is most likely playing a larger amount of minutes. He is vital to that team, especially on defense.


I hope that makes the correspondence more clear for you. If it doesn't I don't care. The whole semantic distinction between always and 29 out of 35 is to me a waste of an argument.



You know what just one thing tonight, this thread sucks.


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## J19

> Originally posted by <b>NYKBaller</b>!
> We are more atheletic now...





:laugh:


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## truth

j19,you are obviously Rashidi as there is no one else manic,or that twisted to actually bring up a thread that is practically a year old..:laugh:


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## Rashidi

Rashidi doesn't use smiles, genius.


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## son of oakley

:|


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