# Amare or Dwight Howard?



## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

If you were starting up an NBA franchise and had the choice of the two, which one would you pick and why?


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## bbasok (Oct 30, 2005)

I'd pick Amaré.Because I think Amaré is better


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Howard. He will be better than Amare soon.


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## MeirToTheWise (Nov 9, 2005)

To the above poster: How can he be better than Amare in the near future, when Amare's injured?

I'd say ask this question at the end of the season. 

However, to entertain the original post: Amare, hands down.


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

bbasok said:


> I'd pick Amaré.Because I think Amaré is better


I agree Amare is better right now. Who do you think will be better in 3 or 4 years? Don't get me wrong, I'd take either on my team in a heartbeat but I think with his bigger body that Howard has a shot to be the better player. Time will tell.


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## Nashaholic (Mar 30, 2005)

Amare. To say Howard will better is ridiculous-did you see Amare in the playoffs last season? Is your memory that short?


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Amare wasn't as good as Howard is at his age. Howard is also bigger.


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## Marshall_42 (Dec 6, 2004)

I'd take Amare over Howard anyday, Howard hasn't done anything to be put in the level that Amare is in. You should be comparing Howard to guys like Bosh and Okafor


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## rdm2 (Sep 17, 2005)

Amare, Future 30 and 10+ guy imo.

Howard will be damn good too. But Amare has that umph that gets people off of their seats multiple times a night and makes the other team put their hands on their head.


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## ToddMacCulloch11 (May 31, 2003)

Right now, I'd take Amare no question. In a few years, this could be a very interesting question though.


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

Marshall_42 said:


> I'd take Amare over Howard anyday, Howard hasn't done anything to be put in the level that Amare is in. You should be comparing Howard to guys like Bosh and Okafor


I probably should have explained why I asked this question. One of the guys on my local talk radio station loves Howard and thinks he will be awesome someday. His partner rattled off a bunch of names of big men including Amare and said Howard will eventually be better than all of them. I am a big fan of Amare's game and feel he's the best young 4 or 5 in the league, that's why I compared the two.


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## AUNDRE (Jul 11, 2005)

Amare.... but who knows how hes going to come back after the injury


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Dwight Howard

I think he will become a better player regardless if he doesn't score as many points as Amare. I've also heard Amare is somewhat of a punk, so I would rather have Howard.


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## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

I don't think Howard will ever be as dominating as Amare offensively. He's already a much better rebounder and defender though. So it's really just a matter of which style you want. I'd pick Amare now, of course.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Hairy Midget said:


> Amare wasn't as good as Howard is at his age.


:raised_ey


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

I guarantee you if Steve Nash was thrown onto the Magic, Howard would be putting up astonishing numbers.


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## JCB (Aug 9, 2005)

Amare . . . . the guys a beast!


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## girllovesthegame (Nov 3, 2005)

Chaser 55 said:


> Amare . . . . the guys a beast!


A BEAST indeed!!! I'll bet any power forward in the league would rather face Howard than to have to deal with Amare. :laugh: 

No knocks on Howard but I can just see Amare now...galloping down that court like a Clydesdale! Beast is the perfect word for him.


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## rdm2 (Sep 17, 2005)

ralaw said:


> Dwight Howard
> 
> I think he will become a better player regardless if he doesn't score as many points as Amare. I've also heard Amare is somewhat of a punk, so I would rather have Howard.


What? Amare has some of the greatest work ethic you ever will see, not only that, he comes from a bad family where his mother and brothers were in and out of jail, father died at a young age, grew up without anything. And yet he's grown up completely clean, and positive. He's got a fierce mentality on the court like any other player should be expected to have, but make no mistake, he's no punk. He is all about taking care of his teammates, and his family who despite letting him down as a child, still takes it upon himself to be the man of the family and take care of them all, setting the prime example as to what they should all strive to become.

I've also never seen him get into a fight on the court, although I've seen guys try to bark at him and start a fight but he always backs away and knows whats more important, the win. Either way, I'll take his fierce court presence over Howard's geeky braces smile any day of the week.


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## BigMac (Jan 14, 2005)

i would take Howard the kid is avg 14ppg and 13.2rpg along with 1.50blk per game as a 20 year old. I see his number going uo every year.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

rdm2 said:


> What? Amare has some of the greatest work ethic you ever will see, not only that, he comes from a bad family where his mother and brothers were in and out of jail, father died at a young age, grew up without anything. And yet he's grown up completely clean, and positive. He's got a fierce mentality on the court like any other player should be expected to have, but make no mistake, he's no punk. He is all about taking care of his teammates, and his family who despite letting him down as a child, still takes it upon himself to be the man of the family and take care of them all, setting the prime example as to what they should all strive to become.
> 
> I've also never seen him get into a fight on the court, although I've seen guys try to bark at him and start a fight but he always backs away and knows whats more important, the win. Either way, I'll take his fierce court presence over Howard's geeky braces smile any day of the week.


When said, "I heard he was a punk" I wasn't refering to his childhood.

BTW, did you know Stoudemire attended six different high schools before graduating from Cypress Creek High School in Orlando, Florida?


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

girllovesthegame said:


> A BEAST indeed!!! I'll bet any power forward in the league would rather face Howard than to have to deal with Amare. :laugh:
> 
> No knocks on Howard but I can just see Amare now...galloping down that court like a Clydesdale! Beast is the perfect word for him.


 Yes you would rather be matched up defensively against Amare rather than Howard. Howard is already a better rebounder and defender than Amare is. Amare is on an entirely different level on the offensive standpoint. Cant go wrong with either but defense wins championships, and as I said in another thread. All those points Amare scored meant nothing as his team got blown out by the Spurs 4-1


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

ralaw said:


> When said, "I heard he was a punk" I wasn't refering to his childhood.
> 
> BTW, did you know Stoudemire attended six different high schools before graduating from Cypress Creek High School in Orlando, Florida?


As I recall, a ESPN article during Amare's rookie season explained it as he went to different high schools for his basketball career and had nothing to do with any behavioural problems he may have had (though very doubtful). One of these high schools had like twenty students with twelve on the basketball team.


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## HawaiianLaker (Nov 28, 2005)

Amare no question he is still young too.


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## Wilmatic2 (Oct 30, 2005)

Where's Chris Bosh in this debate?


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

this is my comparision:

Amare=Kemp
Dwight=Duncan

how many players straight out of high school averages a double-double in their first season?

already Dwight is much better defender and rebounder.

and the most impressive thing is that he is 19yo he has more years to develop.

Amare will be great scoring big man and pretty much unstoppable but he will never grab 12rpg or play defense.


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## girllovesthegame (Nov 3, 2005)

BEEZ said:


> Yes you would rather be matched up defensively against Amare rather than Howard. Howard is already a better rebounder and defender than Amare is. Amare is on an entirely different level on the offensive standpoint. Cant go wrong with either but defense wins championships, and as I said in another thread. All those points Amare scored meant nothing as his team got blown out by the Spurs 4-1


But Amare and his team did indeed get there. I agree, you can't go wrong with either but right now my choice would be Amare. Now if someone matched Bogut or Okafor with Howard, then I'd most likely say Howard but right now, it's Amare.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

ralaw said:


> Dwight Howard
> 
> I think he will become a better player regardless if he doesn't score as many points as Amare. I've also heard Amare is somewhat of a punk, so I would rather have Howard.


LOL

Amare is one of the easiest players to talk to etc off the court.

Btw he is 4 weeks ahead of his schedule from what I have heard.

And comparing Kemp to Amare... Amare has already had a better season than Kemp EVER had.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Wilmatic2 said:


> Where's Chris Bosh in this debate?


As much as I love Bosh, I would take either Howard or Amare in a heartbeat.


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

Amareca said:


> LOL
> 
> Amare is one of the easiest players to talk to etc off the court.
> 
> ...


So a month ahead of schedule... how long was he supposed to be out and when is he expected back?


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

what has reverend howard done in order to merit this comparison?


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

sherako said:


> what has reverend howard done in order to merit this comparison?



I explained earlier in the thread why I posed this question.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

sherako said:


> what has reverend howard done in order to merit this comparison?



It doesn't really matter what he has done so far. It is a opinionated projection on the future. He has already broken some records - youngest player with a 20 rebound game, youngest with a 20-20 game, youngest player to 1000 rebounds. 

He turns 20 yrs old today and is already solidly 2nd in rebounding to only Camby who is having an over-his-head year and is trailing only Duncan in double-doubles.

Amare will probably always be a more prolific scorer than Dwight but I think Dwight will be the more impactful player overall and on both ends of the court. Some people will still probably think Amare is better though since people are so blinded by PPG.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Howard is a guy who can anchor a team on offense and defense. Amare might be better offensively, but he cannot anchor a team on defense. Howard is one of my fav players, D12 in a heartbeat.


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## Sad Mafioso (Nov 7, 2004)

How does Howard anchor an offense when he doesn't have many skills outside of putbacks, dunks, broken plays and the like.

Give me the prospect of Amare comming off that playoff series against Duncan.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

so basically it is a prediction topic. who knows what the future holds? to assume would be maniacal, each player has their own limits.



> Some people will still probably think Amare is better though since people are so blinded by PPG.


it depends. a guy like elton brand scores more than tim duncan, but tim's points have more impact on the game. its all about impact.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Sad Mafioso said:


> How does Howard anchor an offense when he doesn't have many skills outside of putbacks, dunks, broken plays and the like.



Misconception. Watch him play.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Dwight Howard is a beast. Please don't sleep on the kid. He definitely deserves heavy consideration in comparison with Amare Stoudemire.


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## Sad Mafioso (Nov 7, 2004)

JNice said:


> Misconception. Watch him play.


I have actually. Not saying he can't improve since Amare had the same problem his first 2 seasons and then worked on polishing his game outside of tomahawk jam's etc.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Sad Mafioso said:


> I have actually. Not saying he can't improve since Amare had the same problem his first 2 seasons and then worked on polishing his game outside of tomahawk jam's etc.


He already has a lot more than that. If you haven't seen that, then you have not seen him play enough. He's got jump hooks from both blocks using both hands, he can finish with both hands around the basket, and he's been pulling out a new spin move. Lastnight he pulled the move on Sweetney and left him nailed to the ground for an easy tomahawk. And he pulled it earlier on Chandler - so quick Chandler didn't even move. 

Saying he only scores on dunks, putbacks, etc is just flat out not true.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Howard is a boy amonst men, and yet, still a man amongst boys. He is going to be an amazing player if he keeps working hard.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

You cant go wrong with either. Dwight will probably be the better overall contributor, Amare being the more dominant inside scorer... But I'm a PHX fan so I'm going to lean towards Amare more, but lets just say I woudnt complain if Dwight was playing for the Suns either.


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## Sad Mafioso (Nov 7, 2004)

JNice said:


> He already has a lot more than that. If you haven't seen that, then you have not seen him play enough. He's got jump hooks from both blocks using both hands, he can finish with both hands around the basket, and he's been pulling out a new spin move. Lastnight he pulled the move on Sweetney and left him nailed to the ground for an easy tomahawk. And he pulled it earlier on Chandler - so quick Chandler didn't even move.
> 
> Saying he only scores on dunks, putbacks, etc is just flat out not true.


A running jump hook(the move you're talking about) doesn't require that much skill or coordination. Bascially anyone's who's played basketball for more than 5 years can pull it off.

Compared to other players like Chris Bosh, Nenad Krstic, Channing Frye. Howard's repertoire is very mediocre.


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## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

Let's see here...

Dwight's scoring stats: (according to 82games.com)

78% of his shots are around the rim
22% are from a jump shot. 

His eFG% for his jump shot is 27.3% (which is not just bad it's horrible... by the way Stoudemire's jump shot went in about at a 43% clip last year)

Another surprising thing is that 22% of his shots are blocked.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Sad Mafioso said:


> A running jump hook(the move you're talking about) doesn't require that much skill or coordination. Bascially anyone's who's played basketball for more than 5 years can pull it off.


Yeah, that is why so many big men in the league today are able to pull it off. 

Say what you want, but I absolutely guarantee you that 2 yrs from now there will be no comparison at all with Krstic, Frye, and even Bosh.

2 yrs from now the only names that will be discussed with Howard are Duncan and KG.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

JNice said:


> Some people will still probably think Amare is better though since people are so blinded by PPG.


While you on the other hand forgot to mention how the Magic are so thin up front that all of the rebounding duties are Howard's alone.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

trick said:


> While you on the other hand forgot to mention how the Magic are so thin up front that all of the rebounding duties are Howard's alone.



I love how people just make stuff up. Yeah, Orlando's thin front line, which is not much thinner the all the other thin front lines across the league, are why Dwight is putting up record breaking rebounding numbers for his age. Like the 20 rebound games are normal ... 

Ridiculous ...


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Howard does absolutey NOTHING better than Amare except for probably rebounding on a pathetic team. 
Where are the blocks etc from Dwight if he is such a great defender supposedly? Quite honestly he simply isn't.
Why does his team suck so bad?
He can't even shoot 60% from the line and people complained all the time about Amare not having a jumper and all? Howard is much worse of a shooter than Amare ever was.

Amare in his 2nd year was already a go-to guy on offense.

_2 yrs from now the only names that will be discussed with Howard are Duncan and KG._

First of all Howard would have to have an impact on a winning team to even make an allstar team.

Howard will never be better than Amare.

Howard = Next Camby , but that's pretty good if he stays healthy.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

JNice said:


> I love how people just make stuff up. Yeah, Orlando's thin front line, which is not much thinner the all the other thin front lines across the league, are why Dwight is putting up record breaking rebounding numbers for his age. Like the 20 rebound games are normal ...
> 
> Ridiculous ...


I'm not saying his 20 rebound games are not phenomenal. But look at what Orlando has to work with:
Tony Battie plays 24 mpg
Kelvin Cato is on again, off again while averaging 14 mpg
Outlaw seldomly plays
Garrity parks himself outside the 3 point line
Mario Kasun, is well, Mario Kasun

It's not surprising how a great rebounder like Howard is suddenly getting numerous 15+ rebounding games when his supporting big men are few and far in between. I would say the same thing with Camby since his rebounding mates in Hilario (whose injured) and Martin still has some kinks work through.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Amareca said:


> Howard does absolutey NOTHING better than Amare except for probably rebounding on a pathetic team.
> Where are the blocks etc from Dwight if he is such a great defender supposedly? Quite honestly he simply isn't.
> Why does his team suck so bad?
> He can't even shoot 60% from the line and people complained all the time about Amare not having a jumper and all? Howard is much worse of a shooter than Amare ever was.
> ...


:laugh: ... I mean yeah, seriously, Dwight is now 20 yrs he should be leading his team to some rings! What the hell is up with him? :laugh:

From one homer to another more extreme homer ... I disagree.

Howard will be better than Amare. Bank on it. And once it does happen, everyone stay off the damned bandwagon.

Is Amare better now? Of course, but the clock is ticking.


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## BigMac (Jan 14, 2005)

Amareca said:


> Howard does absolutey NOTHING better than Amare except for probably rebounding on a pathetic team.
> Where are the blocks etc from Dwight if he is such a great defender supposedly? Quite honestly he simply isn't.
> Why does his team suck so bad?
> He can't even shoot 60% from the line and people complained all the time about Amare not having a jumper and all? Howard is much worse of a shooter than Amare ever was.
> ...


in his 2nd year Amare was older then Howard is now.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Amareca said:


> Howard does absolutey NOTHING better than Amare except for probably rebounding on a pathetic team.
> Where are the blocks etc from Dwight if he is such a great defender supposedly? Quite honestly he simply isn't.
> Why does his team suck so bad?
> He can't even shoot 60% from the line and people complained all the time about Amare not having a jumper and all? Howard is much worse of a shooter than Amare ever was.
> ...


hahaha Please tell me you aren't serious.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

trick said:


> I'm not saying his 20 rebound games are not phenomenal. But look at what Orlando has to work with:
> Tony Battie plays 24 mpg
> Kelvin Cato is on again, off again while averaging 14 mpg
> Outlaw seldomly plays
> ...



You can argue what you want about Howard ... I don't care, but the one thing that anyone who knows anything about basketball will admit is this kid is a first class rebounder and already easily one of the top few rebounders in the league. I don't care what team you put him on. Try to bash his offense, defense, whatever ... but you can't touch his rebounding. He averaged 10 rpg last year as an 18/19 yr old rookie and Orlando was one of the top rebounding teams in the league much of the year.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

JNice said:


> You can argue what you want about Howard ... I don't care, but the one thing that anyone who knows anything about basketball will admit is this kid is a first class rebounder and already easily one of the top few rebounders in the league. I don't care what team you put him on. Try to bash his offense, defense, whatever ... but you can't touch his rebounding. He averaged 10 rpg last year as an 18/19 yr old rookie and Orlando was one of the top rebounding teams in the league much of the year.


So that little observation of mine means i'm bashing his rebounding despite the fact that I've said he's a great rebounder? Is it illogical to think that his astronomical rebounding numbers have something to do with more than half of his teammates not even attempting to rebound more themselves? :raised_ey

But to make you feel better, I'll just say Howard's the god of all rebounders the NBA has never seen before.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Just watching him play, he grabs rebounds that look impossible to grab. His defense is better than Amare's already, and his offensive numbers would be far better if his team passes him the ball in the second half of games.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

trick said:


> So that little observation of mine means i'm bashing his rebounding despite the fact that I've said he's a great rebounder? Is it not logical to think that his astronomical rebounding numbers have nothing to do with the rest of his teammates not even attempting to rebound more themselves? :raised_ey
> 
> But to make you feel better, I'll just say Howard's the god of all rebounders the NBA has never seen before.



Why did you even enter into this conversation anyway? What exactly was your point? Or was it only because it was mentioned Dwight would be better than your boy Bosh? Oh yeah, thats it.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

JNice said:


> Why did you even enter into this conversation anyway?


Because it's a public forum, and I would like to give my .02?



JNice said:


> What exactly was your point? Or was it only because it was mentioned Dwight would be better than your boy Bosh? Oh yeah, thats it.


I've stated in the past that I would take Howard over Bosh easily. In fact, I believe I've stated it in this thread or some other one relating to Howard.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

trick said:


> Because it's a public forum, and I would like to give my .02?


Ok, let me rephrase. What relevance did your entry into the thread have to do with anything in the thread?


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

What else is Howard goot at except rebounding? Nothing... and that's the truth, everything else is more or less average.

And Amare joined a lottery team as well, made the playoffs right away in the West (don't argue that is was the supporting cast, Howard had Francis, Hill and Mobley, Amare had Marbury and Marion), was missing quite some games the 2nd season and his team missed the playoffs, set records for the Rookie-Soph game, next season he was one of the top MVP candidates made in to the WCF, Allstar Game, Most dominant offensive stats of anyone in the league including Shaq, Broke Jabar's record in the WCF...

Tell us what you want about age, what matters is the coaching he received before. He didn't play in college. In fact Amare played 1 year less highschool ball than the rest even, before he came to the NBA he played less highschool games total than NBA games in his first season.

This is pointless but typically Orlando fans. Maybe you can make this another Kobe vs TMac debate.


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## YoYoYoWasup (Nov 14, 2004)

Anyone who knocks Howard's offense today is simply ignorant. His offensive game was NOT great last year, most would agree with that, but it's improved so much that if the Magic played an uptempo game, or at least at a faster pace than they currently do, he would average 17-18 PPG easily. His offensive game is still far from polished, but it's improved enough to where he is already drawing double and sometimes even triple teams at age 20! And he just turned 20 at that.

Howard is going to be a dominating player, point blank. Has anyone bothered to check out the shoulders on the kid? What do you think he is going to do once he's done growing into those shoulders? You think he's big now... just give him a few years. People can continue to hate on him, or they can look at the facts in the eyes... Howard is THE next dominant big man. In a few years, he'll be the most complete big in the league in terms of scoring, rebounding, blocking shots, etc. Don't give me that Greg Oden bull either... he still has to prove himself. Howard does not have to score 27 PPG to be a great player.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

JNice said:


> Ok, let me rephrase. What relevance did your entry into the thread have to do with anything in the thread?


You mean besides it relates to Howard and his rebounding numbers?


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## YoYoYoWasup (Nov 14, 2004)

Amareca said:


> What else is Howard goot at except rebounding? Nothing... and that's the truth, everything else is more or less average.
> 
> And Amare joined a lottery team as well, made the playoffs right away in the West (don't argue that is was the supporting cast, Howard had Francis, Hill and Mobley, Amare had Marbury and Marion), was missing quite some games the 2nd season and his team missed the playoffs, set records for the Rookie-Soph game, next season he was one of the top MVP candidates made in to the WCF, Allstar Game, Most dominant offensive stats of anyone in the league including Shaq, Broke Jabar's record in the WCF...
> 
> ...


Considering Houston is abysmal without McGrady and Kobe is shot chucking his Lakers into the lottery, that's a valid debate. Kobe is the most overrated player in the league.


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## Big Dub (Nov 20, 2005)

YoYoYoWasup said:


> Considering Houston is abysmal without McGrady and Kobe is shot chucking his Lakers into the lottery, that's a valid debate. Kobe is the most overrated player in the league.


Are u on crack kobe isnt the most overrated player in teh league francis is way more overrated than kobe. kobe has singlehandely put that to to .500 there are alot more players in the league overrated than kobe like 
edy curry 
manu ginobilli 
francis 
vince 
.....'


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## sjfinest5 (Mar 27, 2003)

That is very interesting to look at but i think that i would go with Amare because he is a little more fearless in my opinion around the hoop there is no hesitation on his part when he gets the ball down low but dont get me wrong i think they will both be great players and all stars for years to come but i just think Amare has more heart and hunger in his game and i think that comes from being past off by 7 teams and being drafted 8th overall


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Amareca said:


> What else is Howard goot at except rebounding? Nothing... and that's the truth, everything else is more or less average.
> 
> And Amare joined a lottery team as well, made the playoffs right away in the West (don't argue that is was the supporting cast, Howard had Francis, Hill and Mobley, Amare had Marbury and Marion), was missing quite some games the 2nd season and his team missed the playoffs, set records for the Rookie-Soph game, next season he was one of the top MVP candidates made in to the WCF, Allstar Game, Most dominant offensive stats of anyone in the league including Shaq, Broke Jabar's record in the WCF...
> 
> ...


Oh geez, what a great point. Means a lot coming from the biggest homer around.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

trick said:


> You mean besides it relates to Howard and his rebounding numbers?


But it was in response to me saying people are blinded by PPG numbers .. ? Where is the relation to that?

And even if Howard's rebounding numbers are inflated because of the team he is on, which I disagree, he is still easily a better rebounder than Amare. So I still fail to see your point.


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## Odomiles (Mar 23, 2004)

Amareca: Your only point about Dwight Howard's defense is that he doesn't get many blocks. I know this is becoming somewhat of a cliche, but stats don't mean anything when it comes to defense. Having a high BPG average may just mean that you gamble on more shots and get caught out of position. There are no stats that take into account how well you stay in front of your man, how many shots you alter with your presence, or how well you box out, etc. Defensive awareness and ability can only be measured by watching a player play. I don't see all that many Orlando games but I can say Dwight Howard is definitely better than Amare, as far as I can tell. Defensively, Amare has never impressed me. He's had some exceptional game-changing blocks, but that alone does not make him a good defender. That's my opinion at least. And for what it's worth, based on stats alone, Dwight Howard still averaged more blocks than Amare per game last year (1.66 compared to 1.63) so if you're going to use that as your basis of comparison then your argument for Amare being a better defender would be wrong.

Anyways, it seems that a lot of people in this thread are counting on the fact that Amare will be the same player eventually when he returns. Unfortunately, the odds are largely against him. He may never be quite as explosive for one thing, but worse, he'll probably have further knee problems in the future (Vince Carter, Zach Randolph, Penny Hardaway, Allan Houston, Jonathan Bender... the list goes on). I don't know any one personally who has ever fully recovered from knee surgery. How many NBA players have actually come back from a serious knee surgery and had no problems for the rest of their career? I'm actually asking this question, because I can't think of any myself. I think there's a very good chance he's in for more surgery as his career goes on. It's really unfortunate since he was one hell of a player last year, but that's life. Knee problems are forever. Ask anyone who has had serious surgery if their knee feels the same as it did before the surgery and I can almost guarantee they'll tell you it doesn't. I hope he can prove me wrong and stay healthy for the next 15 years, but the fact is, he's missed a lot of time in his career already, and there's no reason to believe this pattern will change in the future. A lot of people had faith that Bender would overcome his injuries and now he's on the verge of retirement.

I realize that no one knows for sure what will happen with Amare, but if we're going to ask who we'd rather take between these two players, Amare's injury absolutely has to be factored in. Personally, I'd rather not roll the dice on a player whose future may be in doubt. I'm glad to hear he's ahead of schedule in his rehab but I can only hope for his sake that he's not rushing anything. I would definitely consider sitting out the season if I were him.

As for Dwight Howard, I think it's a little unfair to rule out the possibility of him being an offensive force in the future. The guy has taken 19 shots in a game once. He's average 8.77 shots per game over his career. How can he be expected to be putting up 20+ PPG when he doesn't even get the opportunity. Orlando aren't a post-oriented team yet. Save any talk about him only being a rebounding/defense/putback guy until he's actually given the chance to show off his offensive game.

All in all, I think it's unfair to bring this topic up at all at the moment. There are just too many unknown variables to make a fair decision. All Phoenix fans (I didn't realize the Suns fanbase had grown so much on this board) will refuse to believe that Amare will come back as anything less than the beast he was last year, and Dwight Howard doesn't yet have a big role in Orland's guard-dominant offense. Also, the majority of fans haven't even seen Dwight Howard play more than once or twice, since Orlando gets very, very few nationally televised games. It would be unfair for them to pass judgment on a player they don't really know anything about beyond his nba profile.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

I'll take Dwight Howard.

I think that Amare Stoudemire will be a superstar. He'll be good enough to lead championship calibur teams, much in the way that Alonzo Mourning was able to in the late `90s.

But I think that Dwight Howard will be a superstar on another level. He'll be good enough to lead teams to championship WINS, much in the way that Tim Duncan is doing right now.

*shrug* I'm no expert, but thats the way I look at it. And once you add in Amare's history of injuries... it really starts to turn it into an easier decision for me.


-Chris.


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## majew16 (Jun 5, 2005)

i dont get it amare rips him to peices. he frakin avaraged 37 against duncan, one of the best defenders in the league. amare was putting up 20 in his second year while being like the fifth option. now he will be the first option and he has added a jumpshot to his already unstopable offense. if his injury doesnt slow him down i believe he will be the best pf ever after all some consider duncan the best ver and at 22 he ripeed him apart.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Very closeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!.. Both of them are beasts.... Amare gets a lot more touches than Dwight so that's your scoring difference ( obviously Amare has Nash = MVP) and Dwight has ( Francis = Ballhog). Dwight better at rebounding the ball than Amare... i am just wondering who has the better D? the one who has the better D gets my vote.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

majew16 said:


> i dont get it amare rips him to peices. he frakin avaraged 37 against duncan, one of the best defenders in the league. amare was putting up 20 in his second year while being like the fifth option. now he will be the first option and he has added a jumpshot to his already unstopable offense. if his injury doesnt slow him down i believe he will be the best pf ever after all some consider duncan the best ver and at 22 he ripeed him apart.


a. Offense isn't everything. His defense leaves something to be desired.

b. Amare was the fifth option and scoring 20? ... Err.. at worst, third option that year, behind Marion and Starbury. And after the Starbury trade he moved up to 2nd option.

c. I don't know if this injury will slow him down, but he's shown so far that he's pretty injury prone, we'll see what future injuries hold for him.

I take Dwight because right now Dwight is the better defender and the better rebounder. Dwight is also almost as polished an offensive player (more polished than Amare was during his second year). Note that although he's more polished, I agree that thanks to Amare's freakish athletic talents... Amare was a better scoring option as a second year player.

Like I said, I think that Amare will be a freak of nature superstar before all is said and done. I simply think that Dwight Howard will be a better cornerstone for a franchise.


-Chris.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Some people don't realize that Howard will be a 27/15/3 kind of big man. He can score. Just wait till Travis Diener takes the starting PG role (which in two years will happen). That pick and roll between them will be special. I believe in both guys.


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## majew16 (Jun 5, 2005)

ChrisWoj said:


> a. Offense isn't everything. His defense leaves something to be desired.
> 
> b. Amare was the fifth option and scoring 20? ... Err.. at worst, third option that year, behind Marion and Starbury. And after the Starbury trade he moved up to 2nd option.
> 
> ...


sorry didnt realize that he was the second what about jj. and his defense isnt so bad he is a very good shot blocker but is playing out of position and is playing a running game in which its extremely hard to play defense i think if howard was playing out of position at center his defense wouldnt be so good


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## majew16 (Jun 5, 2005)

HKF said:


> Some people don't realize that Howard will be a 27/15/3 kind of big man. He can score. Just wait till Travis Diener takes the starting PG role (which in two years will happen). That pick and roll between them will be special. I believe in both guys.


amare will be a 35/10/2


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

majew16 said:


> amare will be a 35/10/2


Name the last big man to avg. 35 points a game. It's very rare. I actually think he can get 30 ppg, but you don't seem to realize how difficult it is to put up 35 ppg. That is not going to happen.


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## majew16 (Jun 5, 2005)

HKF said:


> Name the last big man to avg. 35 points a game. It's very rare. I actually think he can get 30 ppg, but you don't seem to realize how difficult it is to put up 35 ppg. That is not going to happen.


i really dont know how much but w/out a jumpshot he put up 37 a game in a playoff series against duncan a great defender. hes only 22 or 23 he would be a senior in college. if he developed a jumper over the summer like he says he did than he is unstoppable, though he is also unstoppable w/out a jumore. and whagtever howard can avarage amare can definetly avarage 8 more


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Amareca said:


> What else is Howard goot at except rebounding? Nothing... and that's the truth, everything else is more or less average.


What else is Amare good at except dunking? Nothing... and that's the truth, everything else is more or less average.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

Obviously, it's very difficult to say, but I take Howard. Amare's rebounding and defense are just too ordinary, and big men don't tend to improve much in those areas.

And Amare is not going to average 35 ppg. And he is not better than a prime Kemp.


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

tempe85 said:


> Let's see here...
> 
> Dwight's scoring stats: (according to 82games.com)
> 
> ...


Thanks for the stats Tempe. I would be curious how getting 22% of his shots compares with that of other guys who put up so many shots close to the rim. I never knew they kept track of such stats, very interesting.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> What else is Howard goot at except rebounding? Nothing...


Howard is miles ahead of Stoudemire on the defensive end. It's not even close.


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## majew16 (Jun 5, 2005)

socco said:


> What else is Amare good at except dunking? Nothing... and that's the truth, everything else is more or less average.


he has developed a decent jump shot, and is a good rebounder and shotblocker considering he's playing out of position. and who cares if all he can do is dunk he still scores like crazy


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## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

socco said:


> What else is Amare good at except dunking? Nothing... and that's the truth, everything else is more or less average.


Obviously this shows you never really watch him play. His jump shot last year was better than Duncan's and Garnett's meaning it's pretty darn good.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

You people are slow. Amareca says all Howard can do is rebound, I say all Amare can do is dunk. And really Howard has a much more complete game, so his lie was worse than mine.



tempe85 said:


> His jump shot last year was better than Duncan's and Garnett's meaning it's pretty darn good.


By "better" do you mean "goes in more often"? Because if so you're wrong.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

socco said:


> You people are slow. Amareca says all Howard can do is rebound, I say all Amare can do is dunk. And really Howard has a much more complete game, so his lie was worse than mine.
> 
> 
> By "better" do you mean "goes in more often"? Because if so you're wrong.


You are wrong, stats proved that Amare was shooting a higher percentage than both Garnett and Duncan on jumpshots.

You are ignorant and bitter because lots of people supported that Amare was better than Garnett at the end of last season.

Amare last season was by far the most dominant offensive force in the game including Shaq, hands down. There is no way to argue this.

Too bad Amare is out, otherwise he could dominate Garnett again and again this season just like last.


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## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

socco said:


> You people are slow. Amareca says all Howard can do is rebound, I say all Amare can do is dunk. And really Howard has a much more complete game, so his lie was worse than mine.
> 
> 
> By "better" do you mean "goes in more often"? Because if so you're wrong.


I jumped the gun on Garnett (didn't check first). But let's compare him to other players shall we:

2004-2005 eFG% from jump shots:
Garnett- 44.0%
Y. Ming- 42.8%
*Stoudemire- 42.6%*
Duncan- 41.1%
J. O'Neal- 40.4%
S. O'Neal- 34.9% 



But really if you can get a dunk (highest percentage shot in the game) why wouldn't you do it? According to you this detracts from a players abilities. However Shaq has dominated this league for a decade doing just that and no one seems to care. Getting the ball in the hole is the entire point no matter how you do it. However as you can tell Stoudemire's jump shot is very comparable to Garnett's and better than Duncan's. Stoudemire was also #1 in the league in PointsPerShot last season.. the best determinent of a players scoring efficiency.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

majew16 said:


> he has developed a decent jump shot, and is a good rebounder and shotblocker considering he's playing out of position. and who cares if all he can do is dunk he still scores like crazy


 As active as he is, hes not a good rebounder. Avg 8 or 9 rebounds is not good, if hes this physical beast. And stop it with he played out of position. Him playing Center meant what? There are not many Centers in the West bigger than him, so please stop it with the he played out of position talk. Hes a basketball player that plays the 4/5


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Amareca said:


> You are wrong, stats proved that Amare was shooting a higher percentage than both Garnett and Duncan on jumpshots.


No they didn't.



Amareca said:


> You are ignorant and bitter because lots of people supported that Amare was better than Garnett at the end of last season.


lol, people that think Amare is better than Garnett bother me just as much as little retarded kids, that being not at all.



Amareca said:


> Amare last season was by far the most dominant offensive force in the game including Shaq, hands down. There is no way to argue this.


I can argue it but arguing against you isn't going to do any good, Amare is God no matter what, so why would I waste my time?



Amareca said:


> Too bad Amare is out, otherwise he could dominate Garnett again and again this season just like last.


lol, what does Kevin Garnett have to do with conversation? Oh Amareca, you crack me up. 



tempe85 said:


> But really if you can get a dunk (highest percentage shot in the game) why wouldn't you do it?


If you can rebound, why wouldn't you?



tempe85 said:


> However as you can tell Stoudemire's jump shot is very comparable to Garnett's and better than Duncan's.


He was better than Duncan one season. The year before he was at 35.6%, hardly anything to brag about. Garnett is shooting nearly 53% on jump shots this year. Stoudemire isn't and never will be close to that.


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## Sad Mafioso (Nov 7, 2004)

Has Garnett ever dominated to the point of owning Tim Duncan in a playoff series like Amare last year?

That question can only be answered if you've followed Garnett's career since the begging and those years where he would failt to get his team over SA's. 

The answer is NO.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Yes he has dominated that much and then some. What the hell does any of that have to do with Amare Stoudemire and Dwight Howard though?


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## Bron_Melo_ROY (Apr 12, 2004)

I'll take Dwight Howard although I absolutely love Amare Stoudemire. Dwight Howard is light years ahead of Amare Stoudemire in rebounding and defending. Amare is a better scoring that Dwight but his offense is coming around and is doing a pretty good job considering he plays with one of biggest ballhogs in NBA history (Steve Francis) and seems to have developed some effective post moves. He also has good shot selection considering his age. About Amare...none of us know how he will recover from ankle surgery but chances are that he won't be as explosive as he once was and it will lead to more problems for him down the road.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

How can anyone foolishly say that Amare dominated Duncan last year. The reason the Suns lost was because Duncan dominated them. Just because they let Amare get his points and locked everything else down, doesn't mean Amare all of a sudden dominated Duncan. Please, get real.

And I'm an Amare fan. However, he is very below average defensively and on the glass.


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## Sad Mafioso (Nov 7, 2004)

socco said:


> Yes he has dominated that much and then some. What the hell does any of that have to do with Amare Stoudemire and Dwight Howard though?



He's never dominated Duncan? A game or tow perhaps.

Playoffs series? Not even close.

HFK: Yeah Pop just wanted Amare to score at will. Hell of a strategy right there.


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## YoYoYoWasup (Nov 14, 2004)

Sad Mafioso said:


> He's never dominated Duncan? A game or tow perhaps.
> 
> Playoffs series? Not even close.
> 
> HFK: Yeah Pop just wanted Amare to score at will. Hell of a strategy right there.


It is a hell of a strategy. Worked for the Pistons against the Lakers in the Finals... let everyone else get their points, but do not let Shaq beat you.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Sad Mafioso said:


> He's never dominated Duncan? A game or tow perhaps.
> 
> Playoffs series? Not even close.
> 
> HFK: Yeah Pop just wanted Amare to score at will. Hell of a strategy right there.


He's dominated in the playoffs like that. And ya it is a great strategy, look at the result. Now it might not work with alot of the other superstars in the league, that's because they know how to make their teammates better.


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## dominikan_balla1 (Aug 4, 2004)

*I'll take dwight over amare, just because dwight is younger and just as dominant* GO D-HO!!


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## Sad Mafioso (Nov 7, 2004)

socco said:


> He's dominated in the playoffs like that. And ya it is a great strategy, look at the result. Now it might not work with alot of the other superstars in the league, that's because they know how to make their teammates better.


Garnett has never put up those #'s against Duncan. Find me statistical evidence or else is just talking.

Phoenix lost every game except 1(third game=JJ's comeback), in the 5 closing minutes of each game. So pretty much your argument goes down the drain.

When you're losing 3 games in the last 5 minutes it's pretty evident that the other team either=

-Has more experience(which the Spurs did)

-Is just a better team all around(which the Spurs where at the time)

Phoenix didn't lose that series because of Amare nor Nash.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Amare is possibly the most dominant offensive force last season. But can you win championships being being just the best offensive player? In the league of star PFs today, you cannot win without being able to guard the other team's PF effectively. Howard can do that. Amare can't.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Sad Mafioso said:


> Garnett has never put up those #'s against Dunca. Find me statistical evidence or else is just talking.


I didn't say Duncan fool.



Sad Mafioso said:


> Phoenix didn't lose that series because of Amare nor Nash.


Exactly. San Antonio shut everybody else down. One or two players are *not* going to beat you in the playoffs.


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## Burn (Feb 2, 2003)

I'll take Dwight. You'll see why soon enough.


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## Sad Mafioso (Nov 7, 2004)

Fool? The discussion from the get go was who's put those kind of #'s against Duncan. Amare has, and Garnett hasn't. Simple as that. End of discussion.

Phoenix's problem last year where adressed already comming into this season and you've seen the results so far(12/5). Now they have depth. If Amare comes back like last year.... We'll see.


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## Bron_Melo_ROY (Apr 12, 2004)

Sad Mafioso said:


> He's never dominated Duncan? A game or tow perhaps.
> 
> Playoffs series? Not even close.
> 
> HFK: Yeah Pop just wanted Amare to score at will. Hell of a strategy right there.


Must have been a hell of a strategy being that they WON the series.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Amare had a lot of points, but they had no impact on the actual game!


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Sad Mafioso said:


> Fool? The discussion from the get go was who's put those kind of #'s against Duncan. Amare has, and Garnett hasn't. Simple as that. End of discussion.


No that wasn't the discussion. And Garnett has done just fine against Duncan thank you.



ralaw said:


> Amare had a lot of points, but they had no impact on the actual game!


Bingo.


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## Sad Mafioso (Nov 7, 2004)

If you call losing to Duncan for 3/4 straight playoff series a sucess then how can you label Amare's series a failure? It's a total double standard.

Amare at 23 years old is a BEAST. Whatever makes you think he won't improve escapes me. At the same age Garnett wasn't on his leve. Yes there's room to improve and he admittedly would tell you so.

But to say Howard has a higher ceiling because he's 3 years younger and grabs a couple of more rebounds on a lottery Orland team is totally ludicrous.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Sad Mafioso said:


> If you call losing to Duncan for 3/4 straight playoff series a sucess then how can you label Amare's series a failure? It's a total double standard.


What the **** are you talking about? When did I label Amare's series a failure, or anywhere close to it, or even say anything bad about him for what he did in that series? A little early in the morning to be drinking man.


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## Sad Mafioso (Nov 7, 2004)

You're saying and I quote you "Garnett has done fine against Tim Duncan". How is losing 3/4 playoffs series to Duncan fine?

Amare has dominated Dunca every time they've played each other. Just the other night Howard faced up against Tim and didn't do crap(4-18 from the field, that's good?)...


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Sad Mafioso said:


> If you call losing to Duncan for 3/4 straight playoff series a sucess then how can you label Amare's series a failure? It's a total double standard.
> 
> Amare at 23 years old is a BEAST. Whatever makes you think he won't improve escapes me. At the same age Garnett wasn't on his leve. Yes there's room to improve and he admittedly would tell you so.
> 
> But to say Howard has a higher ceiling because he's 3 years younger and *grabs a couple of more rebounds* on a lottery Orland team is totally ludicrous.


A lot more. All the time. Amare doesn't even have 10 a game. A franchise big man has to get more.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Sad Mafioso said:


> You're saying and I quote you "Garnett has done fine against Tim Duncan". How is losing 3/4 playoffs series to Duncan fine?


By 3/4 I assume you mean 2/2. And that's doing fine because Garnett played great. He's great in the playoffs. The team simply wasn't good enough to beat Duncan's team, not his fault. Once again, what the hell does this have to do with Amare and Howard? Do you just like being wrong and you know that I'll call ya on it? I don't get it.


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## Burn (Feb 2, 2003)

"Amare has dominated Dunca every time they've played each other."

Yes, but with the definition of dominate that you're using it isn't that hard, all you have to do is outscore him. I've heard that Jerry Stackhouse has dominated Duncan on many an occasion.


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## BigMac (Jan 14, 2005)

so let me get this if you dominate Duncan for a couple of game your a great player?


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## Sad Mafioso (Nov 7, 2004)

Garnett has never beaten Duncan in a playoff series. And finally made the second round 2 years ago.

Amare at his age has already being in the WCF and done pretty well for himself. Last year Phoenix wasn't good enuff to get through. This year the story is different, they actually have depth to challenge the Spurs.

What are Howard's "achievements", that can forsee him being a better player than Amare. His hips? 2/3 more rebounds? Please.

Going off a limb and predicting something is rather silly. That's like me saying Kirilenko will be the next Pippen. Just because I thik so. He's already an elite defender, he's 6'9, lanky arms. With a jumpt shot, and a go to move he's the next Pippen. Yeah, there I said.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Sad Mafioso said:


> Garnett has never beaten Duncan in a playoff series. And finally made the second round 2 years ago.
> 
> Amare at his age has already being in the WCF and done pretty well for himself. Last year Phoenix wasn't good enuff to get throught. This year the story is different, they actually have depth to challenge the Spurs.


Sorry for jumping in, but what how is saying KG never beating Duncan have any relevance to your argument, considering Stoudemire has never beat him either? Yes, Amare scored a lot of points against Duncan, but what impact did his scoring have in the win column? OR is winning not as important? I think Amare is a great player, but to me it seemed he was more intent on getting his during that series. There is a BIG difference between scoring a lot of points and carrying your team (ie. see Kobe this year).


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## Sad Mafioso (Nov 7, 2004)

Individually speaking and basing myself on what Garnett has done against Duncan(career wise), Amare has had more sucess against him.

Team achievements aren't on par with individual tho. I'd be like having Roger Rederer playing a double's match and losing. He's still the best tennist in the world. You can't fault him for "team sucess".


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Sad Mafioso said:


> Team achievements aren't on par with individual tho.


Tell that to Jordan, Bird, Magic, Russel, etc..



Sad Mafioso said:


> You can't fault him for "team sucess".


Why not when they get the credit for winning? You can't be given credit for winning and use the "it is a team game" when you lose. If the Suns had won that series a bet people would have been saying Amare carried them to the finals. You can't have it one way and not the other.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Amare's lost to Duncan in the playoffs as much in 3 years as Garnett has in 10 years. Box.


For the 50th time, what the hell does Kevin Garnett have to do with Amare Stoudemire and Dwight Howard?


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## Sad Mafioso (Nov 7, 2004)

ralaw said:


> Tell that to Jordan, Bird, Magic, Russel, etc..
> 
> 
> 
> Why not when they get the credit for winning? You can't be given credit for winning and use the "it is a team game" when you lose. If the Suns had won that series a bet people would have been saying Amare carried them to the finals. You can't have it one way and not the other.


Tell that to Reggie, Stockton, Malone, Ewing and company.

Socco: Garnett is only being used as a measure stick(players comming out of high-school, PF's, promising etc). It's nothing personal, altho it seems you're taking it like it(fool? what's the point of insulting someone for expressing his opinion)

You could look at Amare like a Peyton Manning. He's putting up the stats but so far in his career he doesn't have the trophies. Ok, that's fair. But with time and the right circumstances, that will change just like with Peyton this year.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Sad Mafioso said:


> Socco: Garnett is only being used as a measure stick(players comming out of high-school, PF's, promising etc). It's nothing personal, altho it seems you're taking it like it(fool? what's the point of insulting someone for expressing his opinion)


Fool was being polite. And I said that because you didn't understand what I was saying, not because you expressed your opinion.



Sad Mafioso said:


> You could look at Amare like a Peyton Manning.


Holy ****!


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## Sad Mafioso (Nov 7, 2004)

What are you saying. I've already expressed pretty much everything there is to say, and your rebutals have been pretty weak. All I could gather is you're a Garnett homer and he can't do no wrong + Amare won't improve and he has reached his ceiling at 23 years old. Howard will be better because he's catholic, plays in Disneyland and grabs a couple of more rebounds. Understood.

How is that an unfair comparison.(Peyton/Amare). Aside from Peyton having a longer career, both have dominated their particular sport. Both have produced fantasy type numbers in offensive heaven's(Indy is to football what Phoenix is to basketball), but neither has won anything(team wise). Tired of getting owned by the Patriots in the playoffs, management went in a different route and got alot of defensive specialists who'd help.

The same thing Phoenix did by getting Bell, Diaw and Thomas.

When Amare returns he will be put in a similar situacion and hopefully he will suceed.


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## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

Sad Mafioso said:


> Tell that to Reggie, Stockton, Malone, Ewing and company.
> 
> Socco: Garnett is only being used as a measure stick(players comming out of high-school, PF's, promising etc). It's nothing personal, altho it seems you're taking it like it(fool? what's the point of insulting someone for expressing his opinion)
> 
> You could look at Amare like a Peyton Manning. He's putting up the stats but so far in his career he doesn't have the trophies. Ok, that's fair. But with time and the right circumstances, that will change just like with Peyton this year.


Exactly. I can't believe people are dropping Amare down a peg just because he could win his team the championship in his third season. Do you know what Jordan was doing in his third season? Losing 3-0 in the first round to the Celtics. Yep that Jordan guy wasn't going to amount to crap. 

The mere fact that Amare helped lead the team to the WCF is remarkable and he should be given a lot of credit for it. I mean do we not forget they beat the Grizz and Mavs... which they couldn't have done without the big guy. 

And if you want to talk about accomplishments then what has Dwight done? Absolutely and completely nothing.. nada zilch zero. Amare on the other hand has already taken a Pacific Division Championship, made it to the WCF, won Rookie of the Year, and I believe was 2nd All-Team NBA last year. All in just three seasons. 

By the way anyone who thinks that Duncan LET Amare score on him at will should put down their crack pipes.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

tempe85 said:


> And if you want to talk about accomplishments then what has Dwight done? Absolutely and completely nothing.. nada zilch zero. Amare on the other hand has already taken a Pacific Division Championship, made it to the WCF, won Rookie of the Year, and I believe was 2nd All-Team NBA last year. All in just three seasons.


With the MVP by his side (no, not the trophy, the player that won the trophy)...



tempe85 said:


> By the way anyone who thinks that Duncan LET Amare score on him at will should put down their crack pipes.


:roll: Really a simple concept to understand. The Spurs keyed on shutting down the players around Amare. Their focus was to not let anybody else have big nights. No they're not going to let Amare score, they're just focusing the majority of their effort on the rest of the team.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Sad Mafioso said:


> What are you saying. I've already expressed pretty much everything there is to say, and your rebutals have been pretty weak. All I could gather is you're a Garnett homer and he can't do no wrong + Amare won't improve and he has reached his ceiling at 23 years old. Howard will be better because he's catholic, plays in Disneyland and grabs a couple of more rebounds. Understood.


Likewise with your boy Amare. I say hardly anything about him and all of a sudden I'm saying he won't impvove? Just wondering, what is it that you're drinking at this hour? Or are you one of the recreational drug types? Oh ya, and Howard being religious and plays in Florida has everying to do with why some people think he'll be better. How ****ign ridiculous can you be?



Sad Mafioso said:


> How is that an unfair comparison.(Peyton/Amare).


Peyton just had the best season for a QB of all-time. Amare could fade of into oblivion and nobody will remember him 10 years from now. 100 years from now people will still remember the season Manning had. There's is absolutely no comparison. They are in different worlds.


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## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

socco said:


> With the MVP by his side (no, not the trophy, the player that won the trophy)...
> 
> 
> :roll: Really a simple concept to understand. The Spurs keyed on shutting down the players around Amare. Their focus was to not let anybody else have big nights. No they're not going to let Amare score, they're just focusing the majority of their effort on the rest of the team.


Trust me considering how close the Suns came to winning those games there is no way in heck they wanted Amare to score as much as he did. The problem was they just couldn't stop him. The Suns simply didn't have the firepower to beat the Spurs after Johnson went down and Marion hurt his wrist (making his shooting ineffective). 


By the way... are you saying Socco that you believe Nash deserved the MVP (I sure as heck do but I just want you to say it).


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

I think it's pretty much common knowledge at this point what the Spurs' game plan was.



tempe85 said:


> By the way... are you saying Socco that you believe Nash deserved the MVP (I sure as heck do but I just want you to say it).


He deserved to be a runner up.


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## Sad Mafioso (Nov 7, 2004)

Smells like you're going to turn this into "Steve Nash made Amare", is that so? We've heard that before. And who would be the runner up? The half time soap opera star KG or Shaq? NEXT!

Letting Amare score, would be like Floyd Mayweather having a freudian slip and letting Ricky Hatton beat the living crap out of himg only to say "I just felt like letting him budy punch me till there was tommorow, just because I felt like it". That's stupid and inconceivable.

You're trying to steal a page from those ignorant analysts who thought Avery Johnson was letting Nash score at will so he would disrupt the flow of Phoenix's offense. Wonder how that worked?

To let a 57% FG scorer(quite efficient) score... I'm lost for words. If you've told me the strategy was to leave "Toine to shoot all the bricks he desired I would have thought to myself, Hey that's not a bad strategy. But letting Amare score at will in the paint. Not so much.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Sad Mafioso said:


> Smells like you're going to turn this into "Steve Nash made Amare", is that so? We've heard that before. NEXT!


Not really. Sounds like you're turning this into a team success = caliber of particular player. Amare's better and will always be better because he's been to the playoffs and done good while Howard didn't in his one season? That's basically what you're saying. The kid was a #1 pick, which means he went to a horrible team. Amare played next to a MVP and with probably the best starting lineup in the NBA. 



Sad Mafioso said:


> That's stupid and inconceivable.


Yet fact.


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## Sad Mafioso (Nov 7, 2004)

Where are the written facts or are you implying I should take your word for it?


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)




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## Sad Mafioso (Nov 7, 2004)

*crickets chirping*


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## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

socco said:


> Not really. Sounds like you're turning this into a team success = caliber of particular player. Amare's better and will always be better because he's been to the playoffs and done good while Howard didn't in his one season? That's basically what you're saying. The kid was a #1 pick, which means he went to a horrible team. Amare played next to a MVP and with probably the best starting lineup in the NBA.


The Suns also went up against argueably the best team the NBA had seen in a long time. The Suns could have won the championship in years past but you have to hand it to the Spurs being a tremendous team. The Suns also did this without a bench and they did it playing 3 players in a position that hadn't played much before that year (Amare Center, Marion PF, and Q SF). 


By the way you keep saying he played next to an MVP yet you don't believe he was one. Kind of a double standard eh? 

Also I think after this season it's evident the Suns didn't have the best starting lineup in the NBA. It's just that Nash and Amare opened things up so much for everyone else that it allowed guys like Johnson and Q to have open shot after open shot. 

By the way I guess the Spurs also "let" Stoudemire get 10 rebounds per game during the series too.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

I want to see what Amare does when he gets back. From what I saw last year Amare is a big time scorer, but that is it, while Dwight Howard from what I have seen this year and last is a more well rounded player. I don't believe Dwight Howard will ever be the scorer Stoudemire is or will be, but I do believe he will be the better basketball player. 

If Amare Stoudemire cared about rebounding and defense he could be as dominant as a player we have ever seen, but he has yet to have that desire. Amare seems to be more intent on dominating his opponent by scoring and that is it. However, both are young (so comparing thier ages is foolish) and it really depends on what type of player you like more.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

tempe85 said:


> The Suns also went up against argueably the best team the NBA had seen in a long time.


The Spurs barely even won the title. Best team the NBA has seen in a long time?



tempe85 said:


> By the way you keep saying he played next to an MVP yet you don't believe he was one. Kind of a double standard eh?


He won the MVP, he didn't deserve the MVP. Simple.



tempe85 said:


> By the way I guess the Spurs also "let" Stoudemire get 10 rebounds per game during the series too.


I hope it's the homer in you talking because it's sad if you don't understand the concept of "letting nobody else beat you".


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## Sad Mafioso (Nov 7, 2004)

Amare expressed the desire to be a better defender and an all around player.

Nash didn't deserve his MVP? Who did? Garnett and his losing team? The Shaq that played 60 games last year? Iverson? Kobe? PLEEEEEASE.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Sad Mafioso said:


> Nash didn't deserve his MVP? Who did? Garnett and his losing team? The Shaq that played 60 games last year? Iverson? Kobe? PLEEEEEASE.


Shaq, easily. The fact that you named those other players tells me you weren't really following hte MVP race too closely last year.


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## Sad Mafioso (Nov 7, 2004)

Why? Miami is doine quite fine wihout him at the moment. What did Shaq do to merry an MVP? Phoenix finished with the best record in the NBA(something a Minny fan would understand since Garnett won it when Minny had the first seed didn't he). Turning a mediocre team like Phoenix into an elite team isn't enuff huh? The "others" where mentioned sarcastically. I'd expect someone with so much wit to get it. You saw what happened when Nash missed games, Phoenix couldn't buy a win. When Amare sat out, Nash could still captain the ship.

Nash is taking at team that at the beggining of the season many didn't think would make the playoffs. Still playing like the MVP he was last year.


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## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

I can't believe people are saying Amare has peaked. I mean he's in his third freaking season. People are saying Dwight will get better on the offensive end... but what about Amare on the defensive end? The guy has only played hoops for 5 freaking years.... I think in time he'll learn to be more well rounded as well.


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## Hoopla (Jun 1, 2004)

Amareca said:


> What else is Howard goot at except rebounding? Nothing... and that's the truth, everything else is more or less average.


For someone who is supporting Amare, the last thing you should do is criticize another player for being one-dimensional (which Howard isn't, anyway). What does Amare provide outside of scoring? For his size he is a below average rebounder, a poor defender, and a horrible passer. 

Considering Amare's injury and his reliance on his athleticism, if I was given a choice between the two right now, I would take Howard without thinking twice.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Sad Mafioso said:


> Why? Miami is doine quite fine wihout him at the moment. What did Shaq do to merry an MVP? Phoenix finished with the best record in the NBA(something a Minny fan would understand since Garnett won it when Minny had the first seed didn't he). Turning a mediocre team like Phoenix into an elite team isn't enuff huh? The "others" where mentioned sarcastically. I'd expect someone with so much wit to get it. You saw what happened when Nash missed games, Phoenix couldn't buy a win. When Amare sat out, Nash could still captain the ship.
> 
> Nash is taking at team that at the beggining of the season many didn't think would make the playoffs. Still playing like the MVP he was last year.


Go and search a damn thread for MVP talk. I'm not gonna sit here and explain to you the most simple things that have nothing to do with the topic.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Hoopla said:


> For someone who is supporting Amare, the last thing you should do is criticize another player for being one-dimensional (which Howard isn't, anyway). What does Amare provide outside of scoring? For his size he is a below average rebounder, a poor defender, and a horrible passer.


I tried to say that 5 pages ago and look what it's turned into...


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

There's no reason to believe Stoudemire won't improve defensively, because he's enough of an athletic freak to do it. If he wants to put the work in, he definitely has the athletic ability to be a good defender. Howard, simply put, is just miles ahead of Stoudemire defensively right now, and there's no reason to believe he won't improve, as well.

And, though it doesn't pertain to this thread a whole bunch, I didn't think Nash deserved MVP last year. His playoff performance was worthy of an MVP and he's a true leader, and one of the top guys in the L I'd want to have the ball in crunch time. I remember hearing something about Duncan being the leading candidate before he went down (although this is purely based on memory, I could certainly be incorrect. And for those citing Shaq's injuries, he played in exactly TWO fewer games than Nash. Shaq should've been MVP last year, IMO. And to those talking about MVP, did you all forget Dirk Nowitzki? Didn't he finish 3rd? Anybody following the race would've known Dirk was a prime candidate.


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## majew16 (Jun 5, 2005)

He was better than Duncan one season. The year before he was at 35.6%, hardly anything to brag about. Garnett is shooting nearly 53% on jump shots this year. Stoudemire isn't and never will be close to that.[/QUOTE]
exactly the point he is willing and has improved his game. thats what your supposed yo do when your 22


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## majew16 (Jun 5, 2005)

socco said:


> With the MVP by his side (no, not the trophy, the player that won the trophy)...
> a younger steve nash with dirk and finely in their primes along twith all the other good players they had never got close to having an mvp season.


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## majew16 (Jun 5, 2005)

tempe85 said:


> I can't believe people are saying Amare has peaked. I mean he's in his third freaking season. People are saying Dwight will get better on the offensive end... but what about Amare on the defensive end? The guy has only played hoops for 5 freaking years.... I think in time he'll learn to be more well rounded as well.


bingo


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Howard's not a good defender but I'd probably start a team with him over Amare. Longer and stronger, seems to have the game of a franchise player (not that Amare doesn't). Definitely a tough choice. Amare's knee is the main reason I'm hesitating, but Howard definitely has the game.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

EHL said:


> Howard's not a good defender but I'd probably start a team with him over Amare. Longer and stronger, seems to have the game of a franchise player (not that Amare doesn't). Definitely a tough choice. Amare's knee is the main reason I'm hesitating, but Howard definitely has the game.


 Do you watch any Orlando games? Im watching the makings of a Defensive player of the year at whatever position hes going to play. Hes gets alot of ticky tack fouls and he still bites on pump fakes to much for my tastes but its not one of those maybe he will be a good defensive player. Its this guy is going to be a GREAT defender.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

Like I said earlier you cant go wrong with either guy


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

BEEZ said:


> Do you watch any Orlando games? Im watching the makings of a Defensive player of the year at whatever position hes going to play. Hes gets alot of ticky tack fouls and he still bites on pump fakes to much for my tastes but its not one of those maybe he will be a good defensive player. Its this guy is going to be a GREAT defender.


I'm pretty aware of the fact that he has all the tools to be a GREAT defender, I never said otherwise. Fact is he is not a great defender. Great defensive big men have an impact on their team defensively, Howard does not have that yet.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

EHL said:


> I'm pretty aware of the fact that he has all the tools to be a GREAT defender, I never said otherwise. Fact is he is not a great defender. Great defensive big men have an impact on their team defensively, Howard does not have that yet.


Except for the game winning blocks, and the lack of low post scoring from the other teams? I don't see how he can impact the defensive end any more.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

Hairy Midget said:


> Except for the game winning blocks, and the lack of low post scoring from the other teams? I don't see how he can impact the defensive end any more.


 He has a point EHL. Outside of Tim Duncan so far this year, no one has really had a GREAT game against him.


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## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

As far as Howard's offense skills that were discussed earlier, he does alot more then just score off broken plays, offensive rebounds, putbacks, etc..
That's Tyson Chandler, thats not Dwight Howard.

From what I've seen of him this year (this week's game against the Bulls), he had some great moves, ending in a couple easy dunks.
He also looked alot more ripped and muscular then I remembered him to be last year, he's going to be a force.

Especially considering he just turned 20 yesterday.


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## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

Hairy Midget said:


> Except for the game winning blocks, and the lack of low post scoring from the other teams? I don't see how he can impact the defensive end any more.


Amare had at least 2-3 game winning blocks last season.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

tempe85 said:


> Amare had at least 2-3 game winning blocks last season.


Yea, and Howard already has one this early into the season. We've all pretty much agreed that Howard is better than Amare defensively anyway.


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## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

Hairy Midget said:


> Yea, and Howard already has one this early into the season. We've all pretty much agreed that Howard is better than Amare defensively anyway.


For some reason I think has a teeny tiny advantage over Amare this season (so far)...


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Amare is too good of a scorer to guard one on one. But when teams start doubling and rotating and trying to switch and help each other, that's when last years Suns team thrived. They would get the defense out of position with switches and doubles, and they would beat you with good ball movement. 

Tim Duncan didn't let Amare Stoudemire score, but most of his points came in a slower halfcourt set that was frozen. The Suns last year beat teams with speed, their offense was the most fast pace offense the NBA has seen in a long time. Spurs, by not doubling anyone, took away the ball movement, it was stand around and watch Amare Stoudemire, which was good for Amare but bad for the team offense. The ball movement was more important to the Suns than any individual player. Proof is in the pudding this season. They are still winning games, and they lost a 26 point scorer, because they still run and they still move the ball. Mike D'Antoni is really an amazing coach and I give him a ton of credit for what he has done with Nash, and how he has used the weapons he has. 

Back to the question, both guys are amazing on one end, fairly average on the other. I'd say Dwight Howard has a better chance of developing into a great scorer than Amare does of being a great rebounder and defender.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

LOL right the Spurs gameplan was to let Amare have his, ummmm go home.....


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Amareca said:


> LOL right the Spurs gameplan was to let Amare have his, ummmm go home.....



Then I guess it's normal for Amare not to get double teamed at all? Spurs didn't double Amare Stoudemire at all, and it froze up their fast pace offense.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Sad Mafioso said:


> What are Howard's "achievements", that can forsee him being a better player than Amare. His hips? 2/3 more rebounds? Please.
> 
> Going off a limb and predicting something is rather silly. That's like me saying Kirilenko will be the next Pippen. Just because I thik so. He's already an elite defender, he's 6'9, lanky arms. With a jumpt shot, and a go to move he's the next Pippen. Yeah, there I said.


So based off these comments, I guess the NBA and European clubs should just fire all their scouts. 

It isn't about Howard's achievements. It isn't even about his numbers or averages right now. It is about watching him on the court and being able to project what he is going to be become. It is about watching the impact this kid had on the court even at 18/19 yrs old. It is about listening to the comments the players and coaches who are playing against him are making. Ask any Orlando fan who has watched the games - last year Orlando was clearly a better team when he was on the court. He had a huge impact even as a rookie kid.

Amare is probably going to be the top scoring big (assuming his knee is fine) in the league for the next 6-7 yrs. Regardless, I still think Dwight is going to be a better player and have a greater overall impact on the court than Amare barring injury.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

I need til the end of this season to make my decision. Amare is hurt. Don't know yet if Dwight will get the mental side to go along w/ the physical side. If he does, he could become the best player in the league. Not alot of guys around where you can say that. Plus, I prefer a defensively dominant big man w/ good offense to an offensively dominant one w/ no D.


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## Nikos (Jun 5, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> Plus, I prefer a defensively dominant big man w/ good offense to an offensively dominant one w/ no D.


Kind of like a prime Alonzo Mourning? :raised_ey


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Nikos said:


> Kind of like a prime Alonzo Mourning? :raised_ey


:laugh:


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Amareca said:


> LOL right the Spurs gameplan was to let Amare have his, ummmm go home.....


Please, please, Amareca, tell me what's the use in scoring 30+ppg when the team loses 1-4?


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

Amare didn't dominate Duncan, but it wasn't the other way around, either. Even though he wasn't doubled, 37 ppg on the best defender in the league is quite an accomplishment. Not domination by any means, but still an indication of how good a scorer he can be. Sure, the Spurs won in 5, but the games were close. The better team won.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Hakeem said:


> Amare didn't dominate Duncan, but it wasn't the other way around, either. Even though he wasn't doubled, 37 ppg on the best defender in the league is quite an accomplishment. Not domination by any means, but still an indication of how good a scorer he can be. Sure, the Spurs won in 5, but the games were close. The better team won.


You are very right, but to say he dominated Duncan is not right, when Duncan cleaned the glass, influenced the shooting percentages of so many other players on the team. Not to mention Duncan didn't guard Amare, Rasho and Nazr did. Marion was horrible/horrendous against Duncan and his presence had the Suns shooting horrible percentages.

All I'm saying is, that no one can sit here and say Amare is going to avg. 35 ppg because you have to name me the last big that has done it. Saying a guard can do it and a big can do it are two different things. 

Amare is exceptional, but if you don't think Howard is going to be exceptional or near that status yet, just watch. Howard is 20 and in his third year leap, I expect 21/14/3.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

socco said:


> By 3/4 I assume you mean 2/2. And that's doing fine because Garnett played great. He's great in the playoffs. The team simply wasn't good enough to beat Duncan's team, not his fault. Once again, what the hell does this have to do with Amare and Howard? Do you just like being wrong and you know that I'll call ya on it? I don't get it.


 I guess he didnt see tonights game


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

Thread still going..

People still dont agree that you cannot lose by picking either one... and people are saying Amare is a poor rebounder or defender... the guy averaged 9 rebounds a game, and he was playing next to the best rebounding player under 6'10, that like saying David Robinson wasnt that good of a rebounder when he averaged 10, the lowest he got when he played with Rodman, who averaged 17. BTW, thats not a comparison between Amare and the Admiral.

Defensively... if most of you guys watched the games, Amare very much appeared to be holding back in the defensive end in terms of playing physical. He is a pretty good weak side blocker already, he just needs to be a better positional defender and use his body and atheletism to alter shots better... but that comes with experience.. Amare has only been playing organized ball for 5 years.. as someone stated, surely you cannot call him a poor defender period....


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

1 Penny said:


> Thread still going..
> 
> People still dont agree that you cannot lose by picking either one... and people are saying Amare is a poor rebounder or defender... the guy averaged 9 rebounds a game, and he was playing next to the best rebounding player under 6'10, that like saying David Robinson wasnt that good of a rebounder when he averaged 10, the lowest he got when he played with Rodman, who averaged 17. BTW, thats not a comparison between Amare and the Admiral.
> 
> Defensively... if most of you guys watched the games, Amare very much appeared to be holding back in the defensive end in terms of playing physical. He is a pretty good weak side blocker already, he just needs to be a better positional defender and use his body and atheletism to alter shots better... but that comes with experience.. Amare has only been playing organized ball for 5 years.. as someone stated, surely you cannot call him a poor defender period....


Good point, you really can't go wrong with either. It's not like a team would be upset if they couldn't get Howard and had to settle on Amare, or vice versa. 

But for my money I would lean towards Howard. With him it's like Tim Duncan with KG's athleticism, which is a scary combo.


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

Tim Duncan with KG's athleticism ? That is scary...good description, repped.

Howard does seem like every bit the monstrous prospect that many people (you know who you are, lol) were telling me he would turn out to be. I hope he has a long and injury-free career and I wish they'd televise some more Magic game so I could actually see this kid on TV. I'll have to make it a point to watch the next Magic game on TV, but in short, his rebounding and shot-blocking is what really impresses me above all else. Does anyone know what his wingspan is ? He's a real terror in low post defense. It'll be fun to watch him evolve down the line and I can see the Greg Oden-Dwight Howard rivalry already.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

I'm From Orlando, and have seen them both play up close and personal...

Amare is def. the better athlete.

But i think Dwight will be better, simply for the fact that he's Long, not as athletic, but still is at the same time. I think Dwight will be a better 4, because he's more post up, he's already a better defender, a way better rebounder, and is playing with STEVE FRANCIS, lmao.

Amare is a has more god given talent, but what does he do better than Dwight, really? When you find an answer you tell me, because at least 40% of his points came from nash last year.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Prolific Scorer said:


> I'm From Orlando, and have seen them both play up close and personal...
> 
> Amare is def. the better athlete.
> 
> ...


Amare's the better athlete? I guarantee you Howard could jump higher and run faster than Amare before his injury.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

I don't know about that one, i think Amare's the better athlete by a little.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Prolific Scorer said:


> I don't know about that one, i think Amare's the better athlete by a little.


I'm pretty sure about the running, and I do know for sure that Howard can jump higher than him. Howard has an amazing leaping ability.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

I'm from Orlando, just like you, you act like i don't know about Dwight, lmao.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Prolific Scorer said:


> I'm from Orlando, just like you, you act like i don't know about Dwight, lmao.


Well, it seems weird that someone who's seem him would say that he's not as athletic.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

That's because he's not, lol.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Dwight Howard is not athletic?


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

..

Howard is most definitely one of the most athletic big men in the league, if not the most athletic.

BUT - though Dwight can, in my estimation, actually get up higher than Amare he doesn't have Amare's explosion off the ground. Amare is possibly the most explosive leaper I have ever seen, at least as a big man. That is the only athletic "edge" Amare has on Dwight.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

1 Penny said:


> Defensively... if most of you guys watched the games, Amare very much appeared to be holding back in the defensive end in terms of playing physical. He is a pretty good weak side blocker already, he just needs to be a better positional defender and use his body and atheletism to alter shots better... but that comes with experience.. *Amare has only been playing organized ball for 5 years.. as someone stated, surely you cannot call him a poor defender period*....


Hey, maybe he'll get better defensively, but right now he's an embarrassment. When you don't know where to stand, that's a bad defender. So,yes, I can call him a poor defender.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Oh, and Howard needs to man-up and play Center. Embrace being the anchor of the defense, don't wuss out.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Dwight is athletic, i never said he wasn't, i just said Amare is a tad bit more explosive.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Prolific Scorer said:


> Dwight is athletic, i never said he wasn't, i just said Amare is a tad bit more explosive.



No you said he was "not as athletic" ... I said he was not as "explosive" ... don't steal my sunshine.


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## kingjack (Dec 11, 2006)

I Would Go With Dwight Hes Younger Inch Taller And Hasnt Had Any Delay In His Game, Amare( Microscopic Knee Surgery) And Amare Cant Finish Games,( Nets Vs Suns Amare Sat Last 5 Minutes Of 4th Quater And Didnt Even Play Overtime Had Only 4 Fouls) Amare Is Just A Body, If He Cant Finish Games Then Hes No Good. Dwight Makes His Presence Felt Throuut The Whole Game. Whether Its On Defense Or Offense, Dwight Currently Leads Leaugue In Rebounds


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

kingjack said:


> I Would Go With Dwight Hes Younger Inch Taller And Hasnt Had Any Delay In His Game, Amare( Microscopic Knee Surgery) And Amare Cant Finish Games,( Nets Vs Suns Amare Sat Last 5 Minutes Of 4th Quater And Didnt Even Play Overtime Had Only 4 Fouls) Amare Is Just A Body, If He Cant Finish Games Then Hes No Good. Dwight Makes His Presence Felt Throuut The Whole Game. Whether Its On Defense Or Offense, Dwight Currently Leads Leaugue In Rebounds


Stop the insults. First of all why do you even bump this old thread. Second of all Amare fouled out in the New Jersey game, not only 4 fouls, he fouled out on a charge off the ball that Kidd drew under the hoop.

Amare isn't even 100% yet he already averages 19ppg 10rpg as starter in 29,5 mpg at *66.5%FG*

Here is a stat comparison for Amare pre-injury and now post-injury so far as a starter, normalized for 40mpg and excluding last nights game.

2004-2005

FGA/FGM per 40 (minutes): 18.5/10.3
FG%: .559
Points per 40: 28.8
FTA/FTM per 40: 11.0/8.1
Blocks per 40: 1.8
Rebounds per 40: 9.9

2006-2007

FGA/FGM per 40: 14.2/9.4
FG%: .659
Points per 40: 25.0
FTA/FTM per 40: 8.3/6.1
Blocks per 40: 1.4
Rebounds per 40: 12.9

You realize this whole thread was created after Amare came off of a 37/10 series against Duncan? The highest scoring series by a first time player in the conference finals ever? He didnt even have knee surgery when the thread was made. Is Howard now better than Amare was in his 3rd year and playoffs? No way..

And injuries can happen to anyone, do you think Dwight Howard will never have a serious injury in his career?


----------



## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

D12 vs. Amare tonight...i'm pumped! Amare is gonna show him how it's done.


----------



## melo4life (Jun 5, 2006)

dkg1 said:


> If you were starting up an NBA franchise and had the choice of the two, which one would you pick and why?



Dwight Howard because he hasnt had any real injury problems like amare, and at the moment Dwight has got about 3 games where he has pulled up 20 points and 20 rebounds, pretty hard thing to do


----------



## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

c p 9 said:


> D12 vs. Amare tonight...i'm pumped! Amare is gonna show him how it's done.


So far, looks like you are right

Amare 16 points 7-11FG 4 rebounds 1 assist 2 blocks at the half
Howard 4 points 1 rebound 2 assist 2 turnovers and Amare put him in foul trouble.


----------



## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Amareca said:


> So far, looks like you are right
> 
> Amare 16 points 7-11FG 4 rebounds 1 assist 2 blocks at the half
> Howard 4 points 1 rebound 2 assist 2 turnovers and Amare put him in foul trouble.


The REFS put Dwight in foul trouble.

First Dwight gets fouled on a dunk, no call. Then Amare playes physical with Dwight, they allow it. Dwight plays physical with Amare and it's a foul.

Then Dwight goes for a rebound and they call a foul on him because Thomas jumps out of the away because he's scared of Dwight.

Hopefully in the second half they'll let them play and we can watch Dwight go back to abusing Amare like he did for two minutes he was allowed to play in the first quarter.


----------



## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Hairy Midget said:


> The REFS put Dwight in foul trouble.
> 
> First Dwight gets fouled on a dunk, no call. Then Amare playes physical with Dwight, they allow it. Dwight plays physical with Amare and it's a foul.
> 
> ...


2? He played 9 dude.:yay:


----------



## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Dwight sure coming out on fire in the 2nd half, 2 missed FGs, another foul , a technical and a slam dunk by Amare.

Another Turnover and Foul by Dwight.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Game over, the refs are just horrible.


Amare must have pleased the refs very nicely last night.


----------



## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Nice excuse for Howard doing absolutely nothing in this game except Amare getting in his head, pushing him away from the basket and fronting him.

Amare is really cold though just 8-16FG shooting.


----------



## kingjack (Dec 11, 2006)

Read Next


----------



## kingjack (Dec 11, 2006)

The Reason I Replied Is Of Tonites Game Orlando And Phoenix 

The Point Being Mike D Antoni Puts Amare On The Bench In The Closing Mintues Of The Fourth In A Close Game, Nuff Said


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## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

Amare is showing Dwight how it's done.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Amare played physical with Dwight Howard, no foul. Dwight plays goes to just box out a guy and gets called for a foul.

Dwight would destroy Amare if they would actually let the two play against each other.

Good game refs.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Hairy Midget said:


> Amare played physical with Dwight Howard, no foul. Dwight plays goes to just box out a guy and gets called for a foul.
> 
> Dwight would destroy Amare if they would actually let the two play against each other.
> 
> Good game refs.


Dwight would only destroy Amare in watching "Find Nemo".

Oh what was that? Looked like another Dwight turnover.


----------



## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

Hairy Midget said:


> Amare played physical with Dwight Howard, no foul. Dwight plays goes to just box out a guy and gets called for a foul.
> 
> Dwight would destroy Amare if they would actually let the two play against each other.
> 
> Good game refs.


Want a tissue? Amare has destroyed him in the time Dwight was on the court....Dwight is good, but he isn't Amare Stoudemire good.


----------



## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Oooh another turnover. 

The funny thing about it is that the realgm Magic board was filled with comments like "Howard will set 4 new career highs against the Suns", "Howard will score at least 30 in this game" etc


----------



## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

BWAHAHAHAH, Dwight Howard fouls out....terrible game. Terrible. Amare > Howard.


----------



## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Are you guys even watching the game? Howard dominated Amare the opening minutes before they call 6 straight fouls on him for nothing.

Dear god they were horrible calls. The refs better get some bodyguards tonight.


----------



## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Hairy Midget said:


> Dear god they were horrible calls. The refs better get some bodyguards tonight.


What's your big boy going to do? Force them wo watch Polar Express with him?


----------



## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Well not much the Magic can do when the refs won't let our best player play. 

Suns fans must feel lucky that they were handed a game by the refs.


----------



## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

yes because one matchup determines who's better than who...


dwight>amare


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

I didn't get to watch the game, but it sure as hell seems Dwight got into a ton of foul trouble right away...whether or not they were bad calls, I can't say. It does say he fouled out in 10 minutes though. Damn. But judging from the box score, this was a horrible game for not only D12, but for the Magic as a whole.


----------



## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Dwight with 6 fouls in 10 minutes.

And the frustrating thing is you just can't do anything about the refs.


----------



## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Basel57 said:


> I didn't get to watch the game, but it sure as hell seems Dwight got into a ton of foul trouble right away...whether or not they were bad calls, I can't say. It does say he fouled out in 10 minutes though. Damn. But judging from the box score, this was a horrible game for not only D12, but for the Magic as a whole.


It was a HORRIBLY called game. One of the worst I've ever seen. 

The refs obviously wanted Dwight out of the game and that's what they did.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Now the box score says he played 19 minutes...which was it?


----------



## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

Dwight needs to learn to not push in the back when looking for position on the offensive end. He deserved every foul he got. 

The Suns are just a much better team and Amare is a much better player than Dwight. Dwight's 2 of 6 shooting was DOMINATING though!


----------



## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Basel57 said:


> Now the box score says he played 19 minutes...which was it?


19

Hairy_Midget is high or something. Because even when Howard was in the game he did absolutely nothing. He got owned by Amare on both ends of the floor and Amare was obviously in his head.

And this was the 4th game on the road in 5 nights for the Suns and for Amare. No excuses for the Magic or Howard, Howard got a lesson.


----------



## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

It's funny because the Suns fans act like it was Amare playing well or something. 

You guys just got an early Christmas present from the refs, enjoy it.


----------



## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

I think the officials may have been tipped off to Dwights positioning for boards....the guy has always fouled a lot to get into position. Glad to see them calling it. He deserved them.


----------



## LineOFire (Apr 20, 2004)

This thread sucks.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

LineOFire said:


> This thread sucks.


So don't read/post in it.


----------



## @[email protected] (Jan 19, 2005)

Amareca you are Amare,arent you?
PSne game cant tell the whole story, DH12 still>>>AS im no.1,HAHA


----------



## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Card Trader said:


> I think the officials may have been tipped off to Dwights positioning for boards....the guy has always fouled a lot to get into position. Glad to see them calling it. He deserved them.



How about you watch a few NBA games before you call out the NBA's best rebounder on how he gets his rebounds? And so wait, in the other 2 plus years of basketball the Dwight's played in the NBA, the officials have been completely obvlivious to Howard's supposed inability to obtain rebounding posistion without fouling? Or maybe the league's weakest defensive team's only way to stop what the likes of Ben Wallace, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett and other elite defenders have been throttled by Dwight over the Magic's past 40 games is to flop all over the court? (what? you have incredibly flawed and weak argument? i think so.)

That has got to be one of the poorly refed games of the new season.


----------



## LineOFire (Apr 20, 2004)

Basel57 said:


> So don't read/post in it.


Well it was good until it tonight's game when it turned into a flamefest.


----------



## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Card Trader said:


> I think the officials may have been tipped off to Dwights positioning for boards....the guy has always fouled a lot to get into position. Glad to see them calling it. He deserved them.



No he doesn't, the Suns players just purposely fell down every time Dwight went for a rebound because they knew they would call every possible foul on Dwight.

If they officiated Amare the same way they did Dwight they both would have fouled out in 15 minutes.


----------



## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

I'm going to ask Card Trader and Amareca to cool
it down. Otherwise I will ask for a mod to close this
thread. You guys are borderline baiting.

Hairy Midget, I thought most of the fouls called against
him were worthy. The only one I saw that was a bad one was against Kurt Thomas. He really didn't do anything but the ref saw Kurt flop. 

I thought Howard was smarter then that. The first play down he lowers his shoulder and gets an offensive foul. Then he does it again to Diaw. I would have thought he would start to adjust his game as time went on. But he continued to throw people out of the way to get the rebound. He's been doing that a while, so I'm assuming someone from the Suns told the refs to watch for that.


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

LineOFire said:


> This thread sucks.


Yeah, some Suns homers just act their age. Gives the real Suns fans a bad name.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

LineOFire said:


> Well it was good until it tonight's game when it turned into a flamefest.


It always happens...sooner or later, everyone will calm down and people can hopefully be reasonable in their discussions without just flaming.


----------



## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Dr.Seuss said:


> I'm going to ask Card Trader and Amareca to cool
> it down. Otherwise I will ask for a mod to close this
> thread. You guys are borderline baiting.
> 
> ...



Raja Bell flop for 6th? yeah i think so.

Diaw weighs 203 lbs? Dwight can bench press 375 lbs. 

I hate to make this comparison, because I really don't like the guy, but the calls against Dwight Tonight were Shaq-ese.


----------



## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

Duck34234 said:


> Raja Bell flop for 6th? yeah i think so.
> 
> Diaw weighs 203 lbs? Dwight can bench press 375 lbs.
> 
> I hate to make this comparison, because I really don't like the guy, but the calls against Dwight Tonight were Shaq-ese.


I'm not denying the Suns flopped. It's a fact that the
Suns flop. But why the hell would Dwight give them something
to flop to? That's why I said he should have been smarter and realized that the Suns were flopping when Howard was giveing them enough contact to sell the call.

As time goes on, Howard will have to realize he can't go through everyone like he hopes to. He's eventually going to have to get better post moves to avoid this kind of fould trouble.


----------



## YoYoYoWasup (Nov 14, 2004)

Considering Howard never boxes his man out and freelances out there with regards to rebounding, it'd be pretty hard for him to foul anyone while going for rebounds. Don't speak on things of which you do not know.

This was Howard's worst game of his career, and unfortunately, it came against the Suns and their legion of Amare homers. He'll rebound, which all good players do.

Of course, it's nice when you have a PG like Nash, who again set Amare up for countless easy baskets. Unlike Jameer Nelson and his APG average of under 4. Amare scored some on his own, but Suns fans are kidding themselves if they don't think Nash helps tremendously.

Enjoy the win, but try not to gloat too much in defeat.


----------



## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Dr.Seuss said:


> I'm not denying the Suns flopped. It's a fact that the
> Suns flop. But why the hell would Dwight give them something
> to flop to? That's why I said he should have been smarter and realized that the Suns were flopping when Howard was giveing them enough contact to sell the call.
> 
> As time goes on, Howard will have to realize he can't go through everyone like he hopes to. He's eventually going to have to get better post moves to avoid this kind of fould trouble.


Dwight has fine post moves, it's just that Amare started the game fouling Dwight and pushing him around, and the refs allowed it. So Dwight did the same to Amare and they called it as fouls.

Amare lowered his head on one play and ran straight into Dwight but there was no call. The refs didn't call the game fairly and it shows in the box score.


----------



## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

:worthy: :yay: 

You are still trying to defend an absolute pathetic display by Dwight Howard, he got flat out owned, but please try to find more excuses now I am enjoying it.

Dwights postgame btw looks like he could learn some stuff by simply watching WNBA.

I haven't seen Dwight hit something from outside of 5 foot.


----------



## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

Hairy Midget said:


> Dwight has fine post moves, it's just that Amare started the game fouling Dwight and pushing him around, and the refs allowed it. So Dwight did the same to Amare and they called it as fouls.
> 
> Amare lowered his head on one play and ran straight into Dwight but there was no call. The refs didn't call the game fairly and it shows in the box score.



I watch the entire game. I don't remember Amare running
into Dwight.

I also believe all of Howard's fouls came on the offensive end. So when you say Dwight got called for 'pushing' Amare. I think you saw something else. Dwight was just as tough with Amare as STAT was with Howard.


----------



## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

oh my gosh are you serious? d12 played terrible, why don't you just admit it. amare outplayed him, plain and simple. you're really delusional if you think the refs screwed over d12, when in reality it was easily one of the worst games of his career.

anyway, amare > d12. d12 needs to develop an offensive game. he should watch some film of amare.


----------



## YoYoYoWasup (Nov 14, 2004)

Amareca said:


> :worthy: :yay:
> 
> You are still trying to defend an absolute pathetic display by Dwight Howard, he got flat out owned, but please try to find more excuses now I am enjoying it.
> 
> ...


We know you're enjoying it. You spend more time hating on Howard then anyone on these boards.

BTW, with that offense with nothing outside of 5 feet, Howard was scoring 18 PPG and shooting 61% from the field. Range is overrated. J.O. fell in love with his jump shot and now hardly ever plays in the post anymore.


----------



## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Dr.Seuss said:


> I watch the entire game. I don't remember Amare running
> into Dwight.
> 
> I also believe all of Howard's fouls came on the offensive end. So when you say Dwight got called for 'pushing' Amare. I think you saw something else. Dwight was just as tough with Amare as STAT was with Howard.


I remember specifically when Amare ran into Dwight, and the Orlando commentators were wondering how come they didn't call a foul there when it was a foul on Dwight earlier in the game.


----------



## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Howard was killing Amare in the opening minutes, scoring the quick four points including a dunk, and not letting Amare score. 


Then the refs took over...


----------



## YoYoYoWasup (Nov 14, 2004)

I'm not making excuses for Howard, Amare outplayed him, badly. However, it is just one game, it won't be the last game Howard plays poorly in.

That said, if Howard gets a technical and Brian Hill was as upset as he was, you have to think something is up. I think that's the first technical Howard's got since his rookie season.


----------



## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

11:15 0-4	Dwight Howard makes two point shot (Grant Hill assists)

9:37	Amare Stoudemire makes layup (Steve Nash assists)

*9:18 4-8	Dwight Howard traveling*

*8:15 6-10	Amare Stoudemire blocks Dwight Howard's dunk*

*7:24 8-10	Dwight Howard offensive foul (Amare Stoudemire draws the foul)*

6:11 8-14	Dwight Howard makes layup (Grant Hill assists)

wow, he scored an entire 4 points in the first 6 minutes! you are right, absolutely destroying him! and amare went just 1-3, including missing a 20 ft jumper. yep, howard sure was owning him, damn those refs.


----------



## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

c p 9 said:


> 11:15 0-4	Dwight Howard makes two point shot (Grant Hill assists)
> 
> 9:37	Amare Stoudemire makes layup (Steve Nash assists)
> 
> ...



1. The travelling was something that Amare did about three times that game and was not called once fore.

2. The block was actually a foul. Of course, they're not gonna call a foul on Amare in this game.

3. The offensive foul was a flop by Amare, and like I said above, Amare did the exact same thing down the middle of the lane a little later and nothing was called.


----------



## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

Hairy Midget said:


> 1. The travelling was something that Amare did about three times that game and was not called once fore.
> 
> 2. The block was actually a foul. Of course, they're not gonna call a foul on Amare in this game.
> 
> 3. The offensive foul was a flop by Amare, and like I said above, Amare did the exact same thing down the middle of the lane a little later and nothing was called.


:lol: :lol:    

take off your d12 goggles and quit crying. everything you just said is 100% false and you are clearly blinded by your homerness.

d12 SUCKED tonight. plain and simple. there's a mental side to basketball too, and d12's head clearly wasn't in the game with all of the stupid fouls he committed.


----------



## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

c p 9 said:


> :lol: :lol:
> 
> take off your d12 goggles and quit crying. everything you just said is 100% false and you are clearly blinded by your homerness.
> 
> d12 SUCKED tonight. plain and simple. there's a mental side to basketball too, and d12's head clearly wasn't in the game with all of the stupid fouls he committed.


Take off your Amare goggles and watch the damn game. Dwight was taken out of the game by the refs and they were obviously calling it differently for the two players.


----------



## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

Hairy Midget said:


> Take off your Amare goggles and watch the damn game. Dwight was taken out of the game by the refs and they were obviously calling it differently for the two players.


i don't have amare goggles. what i saw was amare outplaying d12, and d12 making stupid fouls, ie pushing players out of the way in attempt to get a rebound. that's a foul buddy. he didn't have his head in the game. and amare did no such thing of what you speak of. d12 played like amare was earlier this season, making stupid fouls over and over. amare has fouled out countless number of times this season, for the same reasons d12 did tonight. face it, he played bad, his head wasn't there. the refs had nothing to do with it.


----------



## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

Hairy Midget said:


> Take off your Amare goggles and watch the damn game. Dwight was taken out of the game by the refs and they were obviously calling it differently for the two players.



Hairy, I'm going to disagree with you.


Not trying to call you out, but you're making up excuses
for everything. "Block was a foul. Travelling was just because Dwight saw Amare do it"

C'mon man, you're better then that. Lets say Howard had a tough night and let this thread sink to the abyss.


----------



## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

Hairy Midget said:


> 1. The travelling was something that Amare did about three times that game and was not called once fore.
> 
> 2. The block was actually a foul. Of course, they're not gonna call a foul on Amare in this game.
> 
> 3. The offensive foul was a flop by Amare, and like I said above, Amare did the exact same thing down the middle of the lane a little later and nothing was called.


He played awful today and I hardly saw any example of him being picked on by the refs. Every superstar gets calls either for or against, but to blame the whole game on the refs is slightly rediculous.
Amare showed how much more polished he is on the offensive side, plain and simple.
And come'on, Dwight Howard doesn't have a game outside of dunking and putbacks. His post moves are average and he has no jump shot, he just has freaking atheleticism, strength and solid I.Q.

Before this game, even though I was never an Orlando fan, I've always like Howard and his game. Yet reading your posts actually make me dislike Dwight Howards. You really need to stop being so biased.


----------



## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

The problem with Dwight is he simply doesn't have the offensive ability like that of Amare. Amare can score in many different ways and understands what not to do in order to avoid offensive fouls. Today the Suns took advantage of Dwight's limited offensive game and were able to draw quite a few offensive fouls because of it.... when you know what a guy will do on the offensive end you can get into position to be able to stop it. Amare, unlike Dwight, has a vast offensive skilled game that includes a jumper in the 43% range while Dwight's jumper is at 25% (both numbers taken from 82games.com go and check yourself)... A good jumper like Amare's is NOT overrated because a defender can't simply play off you like they do with Dwight because he's got one of the worst jumpers in the game.


----------



## The_Legend_23 (Dec 10, 2005)

Amare owned Dwight, however, Dwight has been better this season. Amare, on the other hand, is still improving game after game after his injury.


----------



## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

tempe85 said:


> The problem with Dwight is he simply doesn't have the offensive ability like that of Amare. Amare can score in many different ways and understands what not to do in order to avoid offensive fouls. Today the Suns took advantage of Dwight's limited offensive game and were able to draw quite a few offensive fouls because of it.... when you know what a guy will do on the offensive end you can get into position to be able to stop it. Amare, unlike Dwight, has a vast offensive skilled game that includes a jumper in the 43% range while Dwight's jumper is at 25% (both numbers taken from 82games.com go and check yourself)... A good jumper like Amare's is NOT overrated because a defender can't simply play off you like they do with Dwight because he's got one of the worst jumpers in the game.


Dwight has a fine offensive game, it had nothing to do with why he fouled out in this game.

Nearly all of Dwight's fouls tonight were on ticky tack fouls away from the ball.


----------



## Minstral (Dec 9, 2006)

Hairy Midget said:


> Take off your Amare goggles and watch the damn game. Dwight was taken out of the game by the refs and they were obviously calling it differently for the two players.


:lol: 
I would post this for every post you've made in this thread but it would take to long. And I don't even like Amare, I'm a laker fan. You've given magic fans their own version of Amareca.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

The_Legend_23 said:


> Amare owned Dwight, however, Dwight has been better this season. Amare, on the other hand, is still improving game after game after his injury.


Stop being so reasonable. 

Amare clearly got the upper hand tonight, and he has been getting better and better as the season goes. Suns could be scary in the playoffs if Amare gets to full stride. 

Howard had one of his worst games of the year, if not the worst, but he is still 18 and 13 this year on 61%, leading the Magic to a 15-8 record. This one game doesn't change that.


----------



## BootyKing (Apr 7, 2005)

Minstral said:


> :lol:
> I would post this for every post you've made in this thread but it would take to long. And I don't even like Amare, I'm a laker fan. You've given magic fans their own version of Amareca.


Exactly what i was about to post. 

I didn't see the game but give some credit where its due. Dwight had a bad game it happens and Amare played well. Suck it up and move on.


----------



## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

This is ridiculous... in the 19 minutes (which is almost half the game) that Dwight did play he got manhandled by Amare... i mean 4 points and 3 boards in 19 minutes??? You can't blame that on the refs... Dwight was responsible for those Scabalrine like numbers... The FACT is an 80% Stoudemire kicked the pants off of D-Zero... he beat him in every faucet of the game. At least Dwight took his beating like a man. :biggrin:


----------



## rdm2 (Sep 17, 2005)

Hairy Midget said:


> Dwight has a fine offensive game, it had nothing to do with why he fouled out in this game.
> 
> Nearly all of Dwight's fouls tonight were on ticky tack fouls away from the ball.


Not one of the first fouls which consisted of posting up Amare, and dropping the shoulder into his sternum for an offensive foul. Thats when his trouble started. Amare drew at least 1 more charge on him too and he basically shoved Raja Bell into the camera men. I dont call those ticky tack...but some of the others may have been. I'll have to go back adn look at the game and see what his fouls were, but Amare played pretty decent D on him.


----------



## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

YoYoYoWasup said:


> Considering Howard never boxes his man out and freelances out there with regards to rebounding, it'd be pretty hard for him to foul anyone while going for rebounds. Don't speak on things of which you do not know.
> 
> This was Howard's worst game of his career, and unfortunately, it came against the Suns and their legion of Amare homers. He'll rebound, which all good players do.
> 
> ...


And by the same token, let's try not to throw in some parting shots toward the guy who had a good game or toward Amare fans.  

Of course Nash helps Amare's game, noone said he doesn't. However, Amare was beginning to become what he is now when he had Stephon Marbury on the team, and even after he was traded and it was just Barbosa. Amare can score no matter what, but Nash makes it easier.

Not every fan of Amare is like a couple of the fans in this thread, so I don't know what you are talking about regarding this "legion of Amare homers".


----------



## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

rdm2 said:


> Not one of the first fouls which consisted of posting up Amare, and dropping the shoulder into his sternum for an offensive foul. Thats when his trouble started. Amare drew at least 1 more charge on him too and he basically shoved Raja Bell into the camera men. I dont call those ticky tack...but some of the others may have been. I'll have to go back adn look at the game and see what his fouls were, but Amare played pretty decent D on him.


Amare only drew one charge, on Dwight's first foul. That's the only foul Dwight had that involved Amare. And later in the game, Amare ran into Dwight the same way and no foul was called.

Dwight did not shove Raja Bell into a camera man, you just made that one up. Dwight had one foul on Raja where he stood next to him and Raja flopped horribly like he's notorious for.


----------



## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Stop being so reasonable.
> 
> Amare clearly got the upper hand tonight, and he has been getting better and better as the season goes. Suns could be scary in the playoffs if Amare gets to full stride.
> 
> Howard had one of his worst games of the year, if not the worst, but he is still 18 and 13 this year on 61%, leading the Magic to a 15-8 record. This one game doesn't change that.


Wow, logic. Almost brings a tear to my eye. :clap2: 

Agreed, one game doesn't erase anything Howard is done. I don't care who you are a fan of or who got the better of Howard in one game, he's going to be a star in this league. Noone should berate his game just because he's going up against your favorite player. He's a stud.


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## sknydave (Apr 27, 2006)

There were several flops from Bell and Thomas tonight


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## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

And that's enough baiting for this thread. Keep your sarcasm to your self or your own team forum.


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## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

sknydave said:


> There were several flops from Bell and Thomas tonight


Flopping is part of the game... sure even I don't like it sometimes.. but it's become part of the NBA and if you don't try to take advantage of it you're dumb.... Also it's not like every player can draw a charge even on a flop... if it were so easy then every player would do it all the time. thomas and Bell are tenacious players who know how to get into position... how to take contact... and sell it to he refs. It's like a catcher in baseball who tries to position his catch to make it look like it's inside the strike zone.. some catchers are very good at selling this. Then again it's easy to flop against an offensive player who only knows how to dunk.


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## rdm2 (Sep 17, 2005)

Hairy Midget said:


> Amare only drew one charge, on Dwight's first foul. That's the only foul Dwight had that involved Amare. And later in the game, Amare ran into Dwight the same way and no foul was called.
> 
> Dwight did not shove Raja Bell into a camera man, you just made that one up. Dwight had one foul on Raja where he stood next to him and Raja flopped horribly like he's notorious for.


Relax. There will be more battles between these 2 players in the future, they have filled the box score pretty evenly in their only 2 other meetings before this one. Howard is awesome and I wish he wasn't taken out of this one so badly, there was definitely bs being called on him...but I still think his flow was totally destroyed after that charge anyway cause he was also fumbling passes or missing them etc. Doesn't change what hes done for his team and will continue to do. In fact I hope it turns into a big man's rivalry for years to come...its like a clash of titans. Amare better hope hes ready for the next one cause this is one Howard will remember.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

tempe85 said:


> Flopping is part of the game... sure even I don't like it sometimes.. but it's become part of the NBA and if you don't try to take advantage of it you're dumb.... Also it's not like every player can draw a charge even on a flop... if it were so easy then every player would do it all the time. thomas and Bell are tenacious players who know how to get into position... how to take contact... and sell it to he refs. It's like a catcher in baseball who tries to position his catch to make it look like it's inside the strike zone.. some catchers are very good at selling this. Then again it's easy to flop against an offensive player who only knows how to dunk.


I agree it is a part of the game, unfortunately. And Dwight should have adjusted but he let the frustration get to him. Still, there were too many flops. The refs should've given Dwight a little benefit of the doubt since it was fairly obvious they were trying to flop him out of the game. And what makes it more frustrated is Dwight got hit some around the basket and got no FTs. 

Just a frustrating game for a 21 yr old. 

Although I knew once I got on the board the Amare vs Dwight threads would be there.​


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

man if you could combine the two players. they'd be deadly. amare's offensive power and dwight's defensive powers


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Amare thrives under pressure and embraces big time match ups(04/05 WCF against Duncan). When he is healthy he's the most explosive inside presence there is and obviously he showed that tonight. Dwight got intimidated and played a bad game.

Not really surprised at all. The bigger the challenge the better Amare plays.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

DuMa said:


> man if you could combine the two players. they'd be deadly. amare's offensive power and dwight's defensive powers


Amare ain't no chump on defense. True he's no Ben Wallace right now, but his defense is better than Howard's offense! That's why Howard fouled out so quickly, he tried to be Amare on the offensive end! He's not good enough to do it! Defense can be coached, true offensive skills are innate. 

it's kinda like that whole paradigm, immovable object or unstoppable force question. We just saw that the unstoppable force won!


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

DuMa said:


> man if you could combine the two players. they'd be deadly. amare's offensive power and dwight's defensive powers



I still dont think any of today's big men, outside of Mourning, Camby and Okafor are above "good" big men defenders.
Maybe its just that I was spoilt by 25+ ppg 11+ rpg 3+ bpg big men when I was growing up. 

Today, its either a defensive big man or an offensive big man. Then you have the all-rounders, but still... not elite in both ends.. or league best anyways.

I'm still waiting for the next big man who dominates the defensive end and offensive end like what the golden era centers did.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Howard is no better defensively than Amare, in fact Amare is playing good defensive this season since he is starting. Dwight only rebounds a lot , but defensive stopper? Cmon now.. his defense is average.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Amareca said:


> Howard is no better defensively than Amare, in fact Amare is playing good defensive this season since he is starting. Dwight only rebounds a lot , but defensive stopper? Cmon now.. his defense is average.


No, lets call it objectively. Amare is NOT as good a defensive player as Dwight. Not even in his dreams. I would take Amare over Dwight as an all round basketball player, but he is not as good as defensive player as Dwight.


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## sknydave (Apr 27, 2006)

If any of you actually watched the game you would see that Orlando's point guards simply do not give Dwight the ball. Not only do they hardly ever get him the ball, but when they do it's in a less than favorable situation. The Suns were also bringing a strong double team immediately and Dwight wasn't able to handle it the few times he held the ball.


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## Rule_By_His_Own_Hand (Jun 20, 2006)

1 Penny said:


> I still dont think any of today's big men, outside of Mourning, Camby and Okafor are above "good" big men defenders.
> Maybe its just that I was spoilt by 25+ ppg 11+ rpg 3+ bpg big men when I was growing up.
> 
> Today, its either a defensive big man or an offensive big man. Then you have the all-rounders, but still... not elite in both ends.. or league best anyways.
> ...


Yao is easily doing that this year. Just because he doesn't average 3 blocks don't think otherwise.


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## Rule_By_His_Own_Hand (Jun 20, 2006)

Amareca said:


> Howard is no better defensively than Amare, in fact Amare is playing good defensive this season since he is starting. Dwight only rebounds a lot , but defensive stopper? Cmon now.. his defense is average.



I take Amare over Dwight every day and twice on Sunday. And I think Dwight is damn good and getting better of course, but still Amare is absolutely phenomenal.


However, your constant Amare worship and ridiculous over the top homerism is blinding you.

Reading your posts it's almost as if you think D. Howard (a top 5 C) is some scrub or something.


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