# OT: Marbury to the Knicks



## Storyteller (Dec 31, 2002)

*OT: Marbury to the Knicks?*

I'm hearing radio reports that Marbury and Hardaway have been traded to New York for (get this) McDyess, Ward, Eisley and the rights to Vujanic.

WHY would Phoenix make this trade?????


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## Swoosh (May 2, 2003)

Almost official...Link 

This will effectively eliminate PHX from any playoff spot this season. I guess they are giving up and trying to clear as much cap room as possible for next season, as well as acquiring more draft picks.


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## Storyteller (Dec 31, 2002)

Apparently, New York is also giving up their 2004 1st round pick and a future 1st rounder as well.

So now we know - Phoenix is the first team in the league to raise the white flag and are officially "rebuilding".

It's time for Portland to see about getting Marion.....


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Swoosh</b>!
> 
> This will effectively eliminate PHX from any playoff spot this season.


And next season, and the next, and the next, ...


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

:upset: 

Why? We could have given them much better for Marbury


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Holy crap. If this actually turns out, everyone's GOTTA give I. Thomas some serious props. 

Even if Marbury doesn't turn out to be the HoFer he looks like he might be, the Garden will be jumping again and Thomas will have re-energized a team and a city's fans that haven't had much to cheer about in a while.

It would suck to be a Suns fan today.

Ed O.


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## Swoosh (May 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>So Cal Blazer Fan</b>!
> Apparently, New York is also giving up their 2004 1st round pick and a future 1st rounder as well.
> 
> So now we know - Phoenix is the first team in the league to raise the white flag and are officially "rebuilding".
> ...


If it's cap room they are looking for, we have a perfect piece for them...Wallace for Marion (and whatever filler it would take)...Come on Natterson, do it (or at least test the waters).


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

man, this is one of those deals where I just HAVE to believe we could've come up with a better package. something involving Sheed and our draft picks for Marbury and garbage could've been a huge upgrade for us. Marbury is only 26 and is a rare top 5 point guard. 

alas.


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## NateBishop3 (Jul 22, 2003)

I agree, why couldn't WE have pulled off a trade for Marbury? Where as Nash on this one?


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

how many times games do we still have against New York this season? Allen Houston/Stephon Marbury vs Damon Stoudamire/Jeff McInnis has got to be the biggest joke in the NBA.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

Have to admit I am starting to feel depressed by our current state of affairs. I mean here we sit, a barely mediocre team WITH Sheed, and it seems the the potential suitors for Sheed, are either ridiculously lowballing us for him, or are making other deals. At this point it would be better served for POR to re-sign Sheed in the offseason at a slightly larger than MLE deal ($7-9mil). I am not sure that this makes us any better in the future, but it is either that or tank the season like Phx just did, and quite frankly their roster looks better from a rebuilding standpoint than POR would sans Sheed. Would you rather have a ton of cap space next year and (Amare, Barbosa, Cabarcapka,Johnson & Vujanic) PLUS TWO NY 1st rounders (04' & 06'?) and their own LOTTO picks?

Or Zach, Q, Outlaw, & ?????) and possibly 1 late lotto pick and 1 pick in mid\high teens, & no cap space until 05'? 

Can it look any bleaker for POR? Either we tank the season, or we hold onto Sheed and doom ourselves to mediocrity. It is just depressing...


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>theWanker</b>!
> how many times games do we still have against New York this season? Allen Houston/Stephon Marbury vs Damon Stoudamire/Jeff McInnis has got to be the biggest joke in the NBA.


 Yeah, but the reverse is true at the forward positions, so it will all even out  

barfo


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

Does this make us a playoff team now?

Phoenix just tanked the season....


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

Its official

ESPN reports


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

I just read about this trade rumour. Insane...New York finally made one of their "our garbage for your star" deals work.

Thomas is one slick snake-oil salesman.

I'm horrified that Starbury was that available and Portland either made no attempt to get him or somehow lost out to New York. Incredible.

This is definitely the type of deal that will give Thomas some breathing room as GM for a few years, even. In one stroke, he undid a lot of damage and got New York their superstar.

Marbury is a player much like Thomas was, himself, a historically rare player: a superstar scorer *and* play-maker from the point guard position. Marbury, Thomas, Oscar Robertson...the list isn't terribly long.

*sigh*


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

What the [email protected]?! They're looking to get expiring contracts and draft picks, both of which we've got plenty of, and Natterpeeks is nowhere to be found... How many times do we -- a team with probably the worst PG situation in the league -- have to sit by and watch top tier PGs pass us by (Kidd and Marbury, Payton, Marbury again)?

I guess it fits with the "don't draft Barbosa" strategy... Avoid quality PG play at all costs.



Dan


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## Storyteller (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> Would you rather have a ton of cap space next year and (Amare, Barbosa, Cabarcapka,Johnson & Vujanic) PLUS TWO NY 1st rounders (04' & 06'?) and their own LOTTO picks?
> 
> Or Zach, Q, Outlaw, & ?????) and possibly 1 late lotto pick and 1 pick in mid\high teens, & no cap space until 05'?
> ...


???? Are you seriously saying that you would love to be a Suns fan today? They just traded their franchise player for cap space and draft picks. That's sad and pathetic in my book.

What team has recently been able to successfully build a winning team by stockpiling draft picks? Chicago and the Clippers have tried - and failed.

BTW, there's a reason why the Knicks traded Vujanic's rights - as in "it looks like he might never play in the NBA." 

Finally, the Suns will not have "tons of cap space". Their team salary will be about $35 million. That sounds good until you consider that they'll have 2 draft picks taking up (probably) about $4 million. So, what the Suns are left with is a choice to either have $6 million in cap room and renounce both their MLE and LLE, or have no cap room and keep both exceptions. That's a little better than most teams, but not much.

So, to answer your question - I am SOOO happy that I am a Blazers fan and not a Suns fan today. No doubt in my mind about that.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

anyone ever contemplate that maybe, juuuuuuust maybe, Phoenix didn't *want* what we offered?


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

the funny thing is that New York did the same thing they've always done: acquire a bunch of contract. the difference this time, which is probably the first time since Sprewell joined, is that they actually got enough value along with the contracts to make it all worth the effort. 

New York just gave away draft picks that are really its only hope of ever contending for a title, but they've made a deal that puts fans in Madison Square Garden seats this year. the more things change, the more they stay the same. 

if I'm a Knicks fan, though, I'm elated with this deal. they may not win a title in the next ten years, but at least they've acquired the best talent to wear a Knicks jersey since Ewing.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> anyone ever contemplate that maybe, juuuuuuust maybe, Phoenix didn't *want* what we offered?


Possible. Phoenix has now effectively traded Kidd for McDyess, so what they want may not be rational. Something about horses and water.

barfo


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Trader Bob</b>!
> Does this make us a playoff team now?
> 
> Phoenix just tanked the season....


Phoenix was already lower than us, and we still sit 10th or 11th, I'll check.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Yep 11th, behind the whole Midwest Division, then LA, SAC and Seattle


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> anyone ever contemplate that maybe, juuuuuuust maybe, Phoenix didn't *want* what we offered?


I've been wondering about that. I'm waiting for a RealGM junky on this board to work out a deal involving Sheed and our two first round picks for all their garbage and Marbury. 

that could be a better deal for Phoenix, because they could stand a chance of resigning Sheed at a lower price. however, they would risk him pulling a Payton and leaving them empty handed. 

so it would basically boil down to our two picks versus New York's two picks. if we threw in Qyntel, it might've worked. 

hmmmm. the more I think about it, I can see why Phoenix wasn't as interested in trading with us. especially when you throw in the fact that they'd be trading to another Western Conference team....


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## Storyteller (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>NateBishop3</b>!
> I agree, why couldn't WE have pulled off a trade for Marbury? Where as Nash on this one?


My guess is that the inclusion of Hardaway and his contract (2 years after this one for $30 million) might have scared Nash off. If the price was expiring contracts and draft picks (and one medium-sized long-term contract), about all that Portland could have offered would have been Wallace, Person, Patterson and the 2 draft picks.

If Nash and Patterson are serious about rebuilding with a combination of draft picks/FA acquisitions, then I could see how this deal wouldn't fit their criteria. Not to say that I agree with it - just that I understand.


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## Scout226 (Sep 17, 2003)

Well, for us to have made a trade for Marbury, we would have wanted to offer up Damon or at least McInnis with Sheed etc. It looks like the Suns were looking for cap space and would not want to take Jeff/Damon off our hands. It would have made no sense to trade Sheed, etc for Marbury. Then we would really be overloaded at PG and no decent SF.

I would have loved to get Marbury, but with Damon, and no back up for Sheed, it would be a bad move now. Also, Marbury's contract is ridiculous. I know top PG's are a premium, but paying 16-21mil over about 5 more years is to much.

Scout


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> anyone ever contemplate that maybe, juuuuuuust maybe, Phoenix didn't *want* what we offered?


That's one possibility, but there are others. 

First, they may not have wanted to deal with another team in their division. That is a common, if not always rational, practice.

Second, this is the *2nd* time in Marbury's career that he has engineered getting traded to his hometown. I am suspicious of that kind of coincidence!:devil:


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Scout226</b>!
> 
> I would have loved to get Marbury, but with Damon, and no back up for Sheed, it would be a bad move now. Also, Marbury's contract is ridiculous. I know top PG's are a premium, but paying 16-21mil over about 5 more years is to much.


Players like Damon and McInnis aren't even relevant, IMO, when you're looking at a player like Marbury. McInnis actually would be a good, relatively cheap, backup for a stud at the PG spot like Stephon. Damon's overpriced drek in almost any situation.

Of course, financial realities involving Damon might have put the kibosh on any Blazers interest in Marbury, just like they probably ultimately cost the Blazers Payton (anyone think Portland would have been more willing to pay GP if they weren't on the hook in such a big way to the Mouse?)

In this way, as in so many others, Damon's a player who just seems to kill the team... 

Back on the court, as long as we don't acquire a player who's a power forward, any upgrade for a younger player (where the player is both better and younger then our current starters) should be pursued. At a position like center or PG, this should be an even higher priority. Portland might never have had a chance at Stephon (because of the whole "trade him to the other conference" deal), but if they took themselves out of the running, it's sad because we won't be able to sign anyone as good as Stephon as a FA no matter how much cap space we have.

Painful.

Ed O.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

As good of a player as Marburry seems to be, he leaves behind a trail of underachiving teams.


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

FWIW:

CBS Sportsline is reporting that Lampe is also going to the Suns as part of the deal. Depending on your view of Lampe's long-term potential, this could be considered relevant.


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## Storyteller (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Oldmangrouch</b>!
> FWIW:
> 
> CBS Sportsline is reporting that Lampe is also going to the Suns as part of the deal. Depending on your view of Lampe's long-term potential, this could be considered relevant.


Lampe's got to be one of the biggest question marks in the league. From being a projected lottery pick through his free-fall on draft day, all the way to getting no time on the court so far this year. 

If he is part of this trade, he'll at least get a better chance to play this year in Phoenix.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Oldmangrouch</b>!
> CBS Sportsline is reporting that Lampe is also going to the Suns as part of the deal. Depending on your view of Lampe's long-term potential, this could be considered relevant.


I think that actually DOES make it a bit more palatable for Suns fans... if they're going to tear it down, at least they're getting more long-term potential.

Let's take a quick look at the two rosters from an expansion draft perspective... did either team set itself up to get burned?

The Suns' roster will currently look like this (assuming Sportsline is right and it's Marbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybanski for Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Maciej Lampe, the rights to Milos Vujanic and cash):

Barbosa
Carbarkaba
Eisely
Jacobson
Johnson
Lampe
Marion
Stoudemire
Voskuhl
Vujanic (*)
White

Because Vujanic and their FAs (McDyess, Williams, Gugliotta, Harvey) won't be under contract, they won't be exposed to the expansion draft. Phoenix can protect 8 players from Charlotte. Who would they protect?

I guess they'd expose Eiesly and White... neither of them would hurt the Suns too badly if they lost them.

For the Knicks, their roster would look like this:

Anderson
Hardaway
Houston
Marbury
Mutombo
Norris
Sweetney
Thomas
Van Horn
Williams

They've got 10 players, but Anderson's contract is bad, and he's not even a starter. I'd expect Anderson and Hardaway to be exposed, with the possibility to leaving Mutombo and even KVH out there, too, hoping Charlotte would take their contracts off their hands.

Ed O.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

So-Cal....Look at our team....I mean where in the hell are we going?...WITH Sheed on our roster we are a grossly mediocre team. Should we be excited if we make the playoffs? Fully knowing of course that we will bow out in the 1st round? I mean does this team look capable of beating the Lakers? San Antonio? Sacramento? or Dallas? in a 7 game series? Of course they don't...

What cap space will we have next offseason to offer to sign a signinficant player? We have two mediocre 04' draft picks in the teens, should we expect to find a\two significant pieces to the future puzzle in them? Is a #14 & #17 going to net us a top 6 pick? I don't think so. This team is an absolute mess, we are starting two sub-par PG, we literally wasted our 04 draft pick, or at least won't know for another 2-3 years. 

Where is the silver lining? What do we have to look forward too? Seeing how M.Carrol & K.Dickens develop? So yeah, I'd rather be a piss poor lottery team with the hope of getting a potential franchise player than the mess of a team we have now.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

Well I see that most of you are freaking out about this trade, as was I when I first heard about it.

But.. the more I think about it the more I'm okay with it. We have four of the best young European prospects in the NBA. Chances are at least one of them (my bet would be Leandro) is going to turn out to be something special. We have Amare who was averaging 17/10 before the ankle injury, Shawn who is young, signed long term, and over the last month has made a miraculous return to form after a dismal start to the season. Joe Johnson is a respectable 15ppg on 43% shooting since D'Antoni became head coach, he just barely turned 22. We also have between 4-5 picks in the first round over the next two years. I'd bet we'll use a couple, then trade one or two with a contract like Jahidi's or Eisley's for junk..

You're telling me you wouldn't want your rebuilding team to have four young foreign prospects, all who have huge potential upside (possibly not though), Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, a solid two in JJ, four or five first rounders over the next two years, and possibly 15 million in cap space, depending on who we can deal??

Me, personally, I think it was a dumb trade because rebuilding was absolutely unneccessary. We had one of the best young cores in the league, all signed long term, and we essentially gave up a something sure in Stephon for something possible in our prospects in cap space.

Sorry for the rant, just letting you guys see it from my perspective as a Suns fan. No need to call the franchise "sad and pathetic", as one of you put it.


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## Terrible (Jan 3, 2003)

I love this trade! Marbury kills our PG's and now we'll only have to see him twice a year instead of four times.

On top of that it gives the Blazers a little more breathing room in the west with what the Suns got in return. If we can't have Marbury atleast no other team in the west can too. 


This also puts to rest the big rumor that Isiah wants Damon.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Thanks for your perspective, Sovereignz. I agree with you (a) that you have a LOT of nice-looking pieces for the future, and it could get a heck of a lot better if the Suns get a stud or two in the next draft, and (b) the deal was stupid because there was no reason to rebuild.

Even if Barbosa pans out, the odds of him being better than Marbury is right now are small. The Suns already had plenty of young pieces to work with in the future, but they had 3 current studs in Amare, Shawn and Stephon. Now they have 2, and they lost the one that will be toughest to replace.

If they had traded Marion for all of those goodies, it would make more sense to me. As it is, I think it's a bit strange, if not sad and pathetic, that the Suns have foresaken the present to such a huge extent when there seemed to be no reason to do so...

Ed O.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

No I agree...The Suns may be crappy now, but they have a lot of promising young players and draft picks. Their is always the risk that you draft badly, or that yoong players don't pan out. But I'd take that chance over remaining in mediocrity, which IMO is more depressing. I think Phx has a lot of young potential on their team, they have a history of drafting well of late. They help unload some contracts, and if they can divest themselves of a few more, they may be a team to watch out for in 3-4 years with CLE & DEN, which is all you can ask for if you are rebuilding. 

Where is POR rebuilding plan? Or are we still in self denial that by adding a few pieces we can get back to the WC finals? How realistic is that train of thought?


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Knicks 3 guard rotations:
marbury, houston and penny -- best of all time.

Suns may draft Shaq-like player next season.


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## SheedSoNasty (Dec 31, 2002)

There seems to have been some pretty lopsided trades this year and Portland hasn't been involved in the upper hand in any of them.

Antoine Walker and Tony Delk for garbage

Ricky Davis for basically Eric Williams

Now Steph for a bunch of nobodies (Dyess will never be the same)

It makes me miss Bob Whittset and how we always ended up with the better player in the deal. Sad times indeed.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> If they had traded Marion for all of those goodies, it would make more sense to me. As it is, I think it's a bit strange, if not sad and pathetic, that the Suns have foresaken the present to such a huge extent when there seemed to be no reason to do so...



That sums up my feelings in a nutshell. I would definitely use strange over "sad and pathetic", but there's no way NY goes for that deal if it's Marion instead of Marbury.

I also don't think that Barbosa could ever become 2/3 the player Marbury is. He's not a great distributor and he makes a lot of mistakes. He is also a freak, seems to pick someone's pocket every third possession, and has a style of play that at times makes him look unguardable (from the 10 minutes a game I get to see him that is ).

It seems to me like the organization just panicked, and made a hasty move that could possibly pay off in a few years (when Amare's rookie contract will be up and Marion will start being past his athletic prime, which is a scary thought for him), but could turn around and bite them in the *** if the picks or one of those younguns don't pan out to be something stellar.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> 
> Where is POR rebuilding plan? Or are we still in self denial that by adding a few pieces we can get back to the WC finals? How realistic is that train of thought?


If Portland had signed GP to the dotted line this summer, I think it was a reasonable goal. The Blazers would have run out a team of:

PG: Gary Payton
SG: Bonzi Wells
SF: Rasheed Wallace
PF: Zach Randolph
C: Dale Davis

Bench: Jeff McInnis/Damon Stoudamire, Derek Anderson, Ruben Patterson, Qyntel Woods, Vlad Stepania. RBB and Outlaw buried/on the IL.

A deep team, with athleticism, length, rebounding and defense.

Portland would have been in a position to continue to accumulate young players (Outlaw, Woods) on the bench while winning on the court. 

The following two years, by re-signing Wallace, or even letting him walk, and coming out from under Damon, Kemp, and Davis contracts, Portland would have had Payton and Wells to go with ZR and the young guys.

As it is now, the franchise seems to lack a long-term plan (beyond "financial responsibility) and the on-court performance is suffering, too.

The worst of both worlds.

Ed O.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

Phoenix has about $33 mill coming off the books this summer.. WOW

Phoenix salaries by Hoopshype


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

It's not the worst deal I've ever seen, it just seems like a very poor decision. Phoenix had what I considered the best young core in the league. It could have been a championship core when Amare Stoudemire progressed to star level big man.

Considering the poor decision was made to break up such a wonderful core, Phoenix actually did a good job of extracting some nice prospects (though potentially the nicest, Vujanic, may not even enter the NBA).

But that doesn't make it not a poor decision. It just prevents it from being totally disastrous. If I were a Phoenix fan, I'm upset that a possible championship core was broken up hastily in order to add more time *and* risk to the window of opportunity.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> 
> We have four of the best young European prospects in the NBA. Chances are at least one of them (my bet would be Leandro) is going to turn out to be something special.


about european prospects, as an european, I wouldn't call barbosa an euro prospect, since he is brazilian and hasn't played a game in european leagues. it's really not a big deal to me, but...


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> Their is always the risk that you draft badly, or that yoong players don't pan out. But I'd take that chance over remaining in mediocrity, which IMO is more depressing.


IMO, this latest trade only confirms what a valuble a chip Damon will become by next season. The Knicks acquired one of the best in the game essencially for cap space, and a couple picks. Missing DA, and having DD at half speed has doomed Portland to mediocre play so far this year, but the chance to improve a whole lot is coming. 

STOMP


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## The Enigma (May 10, 2003)

A sad day to be a Suns fan (that’s for sure).

-----

On another note: Did this make the Knicks a possible eastern contender this season?

On paper they appear rather formidable.

Marbury/ Norris/ Williams
Houston/ Hardaway
Van Horn/ Anderson
Thomas/ Harrington/ Sweetney
Mutumbo/ Doliac

In Marbury and Houston they have two benefited 20 point per game scorers with average to slightly above average defensive capabilities (the best backcourt in the east IMO). Marbury also gives them an individual who can break down the set offence and set up others (8 assists per game for his career).
They have a capable 15 and 7 guy in Van Horn who gives them an inside outside threat, a proven double double at PF (Thomas) and a center who even in his advanced age clogs the lane on defense (Mutumbo). 

They even have a decent bench with Norris, Hardaway, Anderson, Harrington and Doliac.

Most importantly however the Knicks now have a closer in Marbury.

------

Games are not won on paper and chemistry usually takes time, but in the east this could be a team to watch.


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1700818



> The trade is the fourth of Marbury's career. The Brooklyn native was drafted by Milwaukee and immediately dealt to Minnesota


Is that correct? I thought they swapped the 4th and 5th picks prior to Ray Allen and Stephon being selected? I assume cash or a 2nd round pick was thrown in there, but I don't recall ever hearing what it was or why the two teams felt a swap benefitted them...



> [Ward] is expected to be waived by the Suns later this week.


He would probably come pretty cheap for the remainder of the season. No worse than what we've got in the backcourt now.

Note that nowhere in the article does Colangelo talk about the trade being done for draft picks and prospects. Just salary cap and free agency. Surely we could have helped them out as much as NY did?

And why did they even sign Marbury to that huge contract extension if they felt the finances were too much of a burden? Crazy.

Dan


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> Most importantly however the Knicks now have a closer in Marbury.


 :rocket:

Rub it in.. rub it in...


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

Will Phoenix waive Charlie Ward by Saturday when his contract becomes guarenteed? Thus saving them at least $2 mil +


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