# OT: Dynamic Tandem



## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Just so you know, this has nothing to do with the Knicks. I was just watching a few highlights of the Raptors with Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady. Considering the level of star both players are today, I have to say that I'm very disappointed by the fact that we could not see both players in their prime. I think it would be very reasonable to believe that both could approach the level of excellence they display as individual players, together on the same team. Could you imagine how exciting that team would be? I seriously think that would equal a championship caliber team and probably be one of the more exciting teams we've seen in recent history. What do you guys think?


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## kconn61686 (Jul 29, 2005)

I'd prefer the Wade/Shaq tandem or Nash/Stoudemire. I'd even take VC/Kidd over those two, being that the syles are complimentary.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*No way...*

would that team be a contender. They had little else and never would have gotten Bosh or the rookies. No guard dominated team wins titles...except MJs Bulls.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: No way...*



alphaorange said:


> would that team be a contender. They had little else and never would have gotten Bosh or the rookies. No guard dominated team wins titles...except MJs Bulls.


are you serious , you dont think in 7 years (tmac left in the summer of 2000) they couldn't have added anything via free agency or draft pick and trades that could have made them contenders.

I have to say i strongly disagree.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*As usual...*

you are speaking about complete fantasy. Yeah...sure they could have. And Shaq could have chosen to follow Ewing in NY. At least change it up a little and propose something that MIGHT have had possibilities of happening. People couldn't get out of Toronto fast enough until Bosh. After those 2 guys would have had their contracts, there wouldn't be enough money for anyone major.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: As usual...*



alphaorange said:


> you are speaking about complete fantasy. Yeah...sure they could have. And Shaq could have chosen to follow Ewing in NY. At least change it up a little and propose something that MIGHT have had possibilities of happening. People couldn't get out of Toronto fast enough until Bosh. After those 2 guys would have had their contracts, there wouldn't be enough money for anyone major.


Shaq and Ewing were never on the same team. Had the Raptors played their cards right, they would have had both Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady along with a supporting cast that had gone to game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals the year McGrady left. Can you say title contender over the next 7 years? People couldn't get out of Toronto fast enough? Funny how the Raptors problem a few years ago was multi year contracts with the players they resigned. As for the Raptors not having enough money to sign anyone, can you say Mid-Level Exception? All you would need next too those two players would be role players. It would be very realistic for them to attain those kinds of players. Hell, if people are willing to play for cities like Utah, Toronto is definately attractive.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

kconn61686 said:


> I'd prefer the Wade/Shaq tandem or Nash/Stoudemire. I'd even take VC/Kidd over those two, being that the syles are complimentary.


How are Carter and McGrady not complimentary to each other? Both are capable of doing a bunch of things on the floor so when one isn't focusing on one thing, the other one is. They both move and share the ball well with teammates and have the star power to relieve each other of their duties. While those particular tandems are equally impressive, they never would have had the longevity of the T-Mac/VC combo which would mean more shots at a title and more time to assemble a team because of how young they were. Dare I say they'd approach the level of MJ and Pippen?


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## 0oh_S0o_FreSh!! (Jun 3, 2006)

hoe bout pippen/rodman/ jordan mix eh?/


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## kconn61686 (Jul 29, 2005)

TwinkieFoot said:


> How are Carter and McGrady not complimentary to each other? Both are capable of doing a bunch of things on the floor so when one isn't focusing on one thing, the other one is. They both move and share the ball well with teammates and have the star power to relieve each other of their duties. While those particular tandems are equally impressive, they never would have had the longevity of the T-Mac/VC combo which would mean more shots at a title and more time to assemble a team because of how young they were. Dare I say they'd approach the level of MJ and Pippen?


carter and mcgrady are the same players. jordan and pippen were not. pippen was a perfect side kick for his defense, ball handling, breaking, and his ability to score open shots. the offense ran through jordan. carter and mcgrady both demand the ball and need to see it for extended periods and take 20+ shots per game. yao and t-mac is a real combination with its inside-outside nature.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

kconn61686 said:


> carter and mcgrady are the same players. jordan and pippen were not. pippen was a perfect side kick for his defense, ball handling, breaking, and his ability to score open shots. the offense ran through jordan. carter and mcgrady both demand the ball and need to see it for extended periods and take 20+ shots per game. yao and t-mac is a real combination with its inside-outside nature.


The whole method behind operating as a team is to fill different roles to help them win. Pippen was the Pippen we know because he filled roles the Bulls needed. Without Jordan, Pippen was very much a scorer and not the point forward that he was with MJ around. You could make the same point with Tracy McGrady next to Vince Carter. If you've caught any Rocket game this year with Yao, you'd notice that McGrady runs the offense for a good portion of the game while deferring to Yao. Is it so hard to believe that he wouldn't do that with Carter? In Toronto, he was even the defensive stopper of the team which no one really considers him to be right now. Carter and McGrady would work together.


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## kconn61686 (Jul 29, 2005)

cant agree with youn for reasons already stated


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Agree with kconn....(it happens)*

MJ and Jordan still had GREAT role players. MJ and Pippen were both also far better than Tmac and VC. Plus they had one of the best coaches of all time. I don't see it at all. Good and fun to watch? Sure, but no contenders. Besides,, check out the rosters in those years. Not enough good players to win anything.....no real trade bait......and no real available money for FAs (assuming Tmac stayed). Nowhere land. Good enought to win at a decent clip but no way to secure a high draft pick of very good FA. I watched that show with the Knicks.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Agree with kconn....(it happens)*



alphaorange said:


> MJ and Jordan still had GREAT role players. MJ and Pippen were both also far better than Tmac and VC. Plus they had one of the best coaches of all time. I don't see it at all. Good and fun to watch? Sure, but no contenders. Besides,, check out the rosters in those years. Not enough good players to win anything.....no real trade bait......and no real available money for FAs (assuming Tmac stayed). Nowhere land. Good enought to win at a decent clip but no way to secure a high draft pick of very good FA. I watched that show with the Knicks.



Lenny Wilkins was one of the best coaches of all time and he never got the chance to play both Carter and McGrady together. In an age where we see former stars and stars sign for a fraction of their value, is it so hard to believe that the Raptors would recieve the players they needed to make a run? Whose to say that with McGrady and Carter that you really needed much more than role players considering the state the East has been in over the course the past couple of years? Hell, Carter alone helped carry that team to a game away from the Eastern Conference Finals in 2001. I mean, we saw the Lakers with very little around Shaq and Kobe win 3 straight and that supporting cast was not that much worse than what the Raptors had to work with with Hakeem Olajuwon and Charles Oakley on board.

As for dismissing the VC and T-Mac comparison to Jordan and Pippen, I think is wrong. While Jordan and Pippen did spend their prime with each other, neither really changed the game as much as a duo than they did as individuals. I think knowing that, it's unfair to write off Carter and T-mac and their propensity to be a dynamic duo because of that.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: As usual...*



alphaorange said:


> you are speaking about complete fantasy. Yeah...sure they could have. And Shaq could have chosen to follow Ewing in NY. At least change it up a little and propose something that MIGHT have had possibilities of happening. People couldn't get out of Toronto fast enough until Bosh. After those 2 guys would have had their contracts, there wouldn't be enough money for anyone major.



the raptors have proven they are willing to spend money in the past , they gave jyd that nutty contract and AD 12 mil a year into his late 30's, and even that wasted $ on alvin williams and bought out Zo' when they could have either forced him to play or retire.

at the very least they could have used the MLE wisely , similar to the way they did the last offseason,and made a couple of good draft picks , for instance maybe guys like david lee and tony parker , sam dalembert, carlos boozer , gilbert arenas , nened krstic, L.barbosa anderson varajao, chris duhon, monta ellis, jamaal tinley or memo okur could all wind up on the raptors instead snce they were all available in the last 5 picks in the 1st round over the past 7 years, all in positions other than 2 guard and small forward, you act as if toronto is utah and cant get FA's , unless they are unwanted and have no real options , and even they got boozer and okur a couple of years ago, when in reality its hit and miss ...and recruiting free agents is alot easier if you have 2 exciting players who happen to be superstars...and of course there is always trading for more talent , which can always happen, because GM's getted robbed of good talent every year.

but somehow the idea they could have done anything at all over the last 7 years is a fantasy ...you really need to open your eyes a bit.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

TwinkieFoot said:


> Just so you know, this has nothing to do with the Knicks. I was just watching a few highlights of the Raptors with Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady. Considering the level of star both players are today, I have to say that I'm very disappointed by the fact that we could not see both players in their prime. I think it would be very reasonable to believe that both could approach the level of excellence they display as individual players, together on the same team. Could you imagine how exciting that team would be? I seriously think that would equal a championship caliber team and probably be one of the more exciting teams we've seen in recent history. What do you guys think?



The Raptors were heading in the right direction when they traded for Defensive PG-Chris Childs to go along with the Carter/T-Mac Show. 
All Carter & T-Mac needed to go along with their Super-Star Offensive Skillz was to learn a Trapping-Defense together to cut off their oponents passing-lane. 
Too Bad Coach Lenny Wilkins could'nt teach them how "Jordan & Pippin" trapping-defense Swept his Cleveland Caveliers team with the Number One (#1) best record in the NBA that season in the first round of the Playoffs by stopping PG-Price & SG-Harper passing lane. 

*Yes' Carter & T-Mac would've been the next comparison to the "Jordan & Pippin" Show.* The last player Carter & T-Mac needed on their team was the same player that Jordan & Pippin had to get off their team and out of the lockerroom to WIN their first Championship. Guess who that is Knick-Fans???


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Grinch,*

You proposing that they do something they have never done (post Isiah, anyway, until the current GM). They never made smart acquisitions and they drafted poorly. The fact of the matter is that nobody clamored to be in Toronto. In fact, they had a hard time attracting the interest of FAs. I also don't recall any players saying they wanted to play with Tmac and/or Carter. THAT was something Jordan and Pippen had. Players wanted to play on the Bulls with them. Also, Wilkens, although he is a HOF coach was not good the last several years. Sorry, Grinch....some of these comments are in response to Twink.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Grinch,*



alphaorange said:


> You proposing that they do something they have never done (post Isiah, anyway, until the current GM). They never made smart acquisitions and they drafted poorly. The fact of the matter is that nobody clamored to be in Toronto. In fact, they had a hard time attracting the interest of FAs. I also don't recall any players saying they wanted to play with Tmac and/or Carter. THAT was something Jordan and Pippen had. Players wanted to play on the Bulls with them. Also, Wilkens, although he is a HOF coach was not good the last several years. Sorry, Grinch....some of these comments are in response to Twink.


They may have had a hard time recruiting FA's at one point because they were an expansion franchise. Losing tons of games was not exactly in the cards of many players in this league. Still, when the Raptors managed to bring in Carter and McGrady, the Raptors began bringing in Hall of Fame caliber players who still could make a difference in the game like Charles Oakley and Hakeem Olajuwon. Whose to say that trend would not have continued with better players who were even younger? 

As for Wilkins, he may not have been the Wilkins of the past but I still recall him leading the Raptors past the Knicks and almost past the league leading Sixers. Perhaps if he had Tracy McGrady that year and several more years to follow, this ocnversation wouldn't happen. In either case, the Raptors showed the ability to land a HOF coach so why couldn't they do the same with another?


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Grinch,*



alphaorange said:


> You proposing that they do something they have never done (post Isiah, anyway, until the current GM). They never made smart acquisitions and they drafted poorly. The fact of the matter is that nobody clamored to be in Toronto. In fact, they had a hard time attracting the interest of FAs. I also don't recall any players saying they wanted to play with Tmac and/or Carter. THAT was something Jordan and Pippen had. Players wanted to play on the Bulls with them. Also, Wilkens, although he is a HOF coach was not good the last several years. Sorry, Grinch....some of these comments are in response to Twink.



different teams have different circumstances, they may have been bad talent evaluators, but due to having the wing spots locked they may have moved in other directions ...perhaps the mere fact that the magic dont have t-mac changes how the draft goes for every1 .

i'm not saying they would be a lock to be a dominant team , but having 2 guys like that is a heck of a start and would have to be a lock for at least 45 wins a year, barring serious injuries.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Grinch,*



Da Grinch said:


> different teams have different circumstances, they may have been bad talent evaluators, but due to having the wing spots locked they may have moved in other directions ...perhaps the mere fact that the magic dont have t-mac changes how the draft goes for every1 .
> 
> i'm not saying they would be a lock to be a dominant team , but having 2 guys like that is a heck of a start and would have to be a lock for at least 45 wins a year, barring serious injuries.


I think in order for a team that includes both Tracy McGrady and Vince Carter to have a serious injury, both players would have to be hurt. If I recall correctly, the Raptors were a 45 win team without McGrady for an entire season. Imagine having McGrady even for a fraction of the season and how much difference he could make.


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