# The 2008-9 Roster has a lot of half-court offensive players



## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

After all the off season moves the Knicks will start the season with the majority of its players that can only play to a half court system rotation. 
Does the new coach Mike D’Antoni, has the skills in coaching a half court offensive team?

We seen four years of Coach D’Antoni up-tempo run and gun offensive strategy inwhich his main strategy was out scoring his opponents in a fast tempo system. 

*Here are the Knick players that have problems in a fast tempo system and feel more relax in a half court system:* 

C-Jerome James 
C-Curry 
PF-Zach 
PF-Malik Rose 
SF-Q.Richardson 
SG-Crawford 
PG-Collins 
PG-Duhorn 
PG-Marbury 

*Here are the Knick players that feel more relax in a fast tempo system:* 

PF-Lee 
SF-Jefferies 
SF-Chandler 
SF-Gallinari 
SG-Roberson 
PG-Nate 

Coach D’Antoni best winning season in Phoenix was when he had a relentless defensive SG-Joe Johnson who average 20 points per game, and had no problems when switching to the combo-guard. 
When Phoenix lost SG-Joe Johnson they replaced him with a defensive SG-Bell and Diaw to defend Phoenix opposition scoring SF and SG. 
This leave the question of Jamal Crawford open (the only SG). 

*What will new coach D’Antoni do with Jamal Crawford, what position will he play?* 
Some say Crawford has the ability and skills to play at a run and gun tempo, when all of Crawford’s previous NBA coaches could never get him to push the ball or make wise decisions in a fast tempo system or on a fastbreak. 

Crawford did well in a fast transition system coming off the bench alongside of Nate Robertson who did all the pushing the ball upcourt and throwing Crawford a lob pass for a close jumpshot or an untested layup. The bench players quick transition system ran well with Nate, Tazman, and Lee, running hustle on the ball on both sides of the court with Crawford being the main scorer. 
All that stopped when Crawford became a “starter” and refuse to run with the bench players, he demanded the ball to walk it up the court on every offensive play. 

So the Knicks 40 mpg Jamal Crawford who averaged 7 shots out of 18 attempts each game last season will be the biggest question mark in new coach D'Antoni system???


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Absolutely disagree on many of these...*

Curry is one of the fastest centers in the game when it comes to getting out and running. How can you possibly know he will struggle when he has never played in that type of offense. Besides, he will be needed when the team is forced into a halfcourt set. Duhon played in a very uptempo style at Duke...and he played well in it. Qrich has already played it and he also did well. There is no reason for JC to be bad in it, he just hasn't done it yet. Collins, we have no way of knowing. Like I have been saying all along, these types of posts are extremely speculative at best, since they are based on assumptions that none of us know to be true. For example: how does anyone know that JC was pushed to be uptempo, yet failed to be able to. I don't recall the Knicks trying to run much except for the first couple of weeks under Brown. He gave up because they couldn't (or wouldn't) get back on defense. Thomas just played a motion offense. I also don't recall The Bulls really being a running team. Saying that JC refused to run is completely unfounded. We'll start having answers in a couple of months. I just hate the slow time.....


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

Hinrich took PG-Crawford job in Chicago by running an uptempo offense. Crawford was benched and moved to SG. 
How can you say Curry is an uptempo running player and not be certain about Crawford who played 3 seasons with Curry on the Bulls. 
When Crawford replaced Francis in the starting lineup his playingtime went from 24 mpg to 32 mpg (Francis disapeared for two months), after the Denver Brawl Nate Robinson was benched to garbage time. Either Crawford refuse to run or he did not know how to push the ball to run, or he was saving his energy so he could keep playing over 32 mpg, you make the choice. 

Q.Rich has been to slow to keep up with the average SG and SF in the league. 
It did not take Phoenix and D'Antoni long to find out that they gave Q.Rich twice the amount of money than his performance was worth. It was the December signing of "SF-Jim Jackson" that saved Phoenix in replacing Q.Richardson his one season in Phoenix. Q.Rich only gave Phoenix a 3 point threat on the team you will never see Q.Rich on a fastbreak layup in Phoenix he ran to the outside for the jumper on a fastbreak. And since then Q.Rich has been shooting like Jefferies.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Curry can play an uptempo brand of basketball...he is fast and agile (the only person i have ever heard of who as a high schooler was all state in basketball and gymnastics....thats a freaky level of athletic ability in some1 so big)

Crawford can play uptempo ...thats where he is most comfortable...in fact in 2002-03 when he finished the season as a pg , the team was the 4th fastest paced team in the league....Curry also led the league in FG% in that faster paced season.in addition the bulls in curry's 2nd 3rd and 4th season with the bulls finished 4th, 8th and 5th in in how fast they played the game.
http://basketballreference.com/leaders/teamseasonsearch.htm

as for duhon the bulls have been in the top 10 in pace every year from 2002-03 on, so its really rather established he can play an uptempo game.
the suns last year finished 5th for comparison's sake , so they'll be just fine.

also Crawford was moved to shooting guard the following season to get hinrich in the game more, they were by far the best 2 guards on the team.



kiya I find your posts in this thread completely unfounded in reality.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

> kiya I find your posts in this thread completely unfounded in reality.


Get it right, you find my response in this thread very argumentive or debatable. 
The unfounded insults are not as Big as you and I. 
I respect your information about Curry as a Bull, but his weight gain and improvement as a Halfcourt low post scorer since those days as a Bull pulls more weight now. 

*To break this entire Post down to making a long conversation short.* 

History has always showed the Knick Big-Brass will make Walsh & D'Antoni give the majority of playingtime to the Big Contract Players, or the so-called franchise players. The Knicks Big-Brass feels if the big contract players are not worth giving playingtime to then trade them or play them untill you trade them. Pat Riley and Don Nelson did not agree with that Big Brass philosophy. 
That is why coach Larry Brown had a million different starting lineups however, Marbury & Curry was in each of those starting lineups (they did not come off the bench for Larry Brown, and Larry Brown consistent public comments about Marbury & Curry showed that he wanted to bench both players.). 

*It is not about the Knick Players having to play to coach D'Antoni Phoenix style of play, it's about if D'Antoni can coach a 48 mpg halfcourt style of play.*
That is what we Knick Fans will endure this 2008-9 season.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

you think curry has only had weight /conditioning issues as a knicks?

they were bigger as a bull...they had to give him high school drills as a rookie because he couldn't get through pro level ones.

the bulls while curry was there played as fast as the suns do now comparative to the league rankings, he can get up and down the court just fine.

big contracts dont mean as much as coaches philophy .

malik rose and 8 mil. salary didn't play ahead of lee last year nor did jerome james who couldn't pay his way on the court, despite his claims he was healthy.

Larry brown was trying to lose...his judgement means nothing to me.but cuury and marbury were clearly the best at their position, so they played, he really had no choice ...was he going to start a rookie in nate or jerome james , no obviously so curry and marbury were fixtures..


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Pat riley quit because he was offered part of the heat franchise to go.

Nelson was fired because he made the mistake of taking the ball out Ewing's hands and trying to make Mason a point forward...and the players revolted in a way.


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## Cager (Jun 13, 2002)

I watched or attended almost of all the Bulls games when Curry was in Chicago. If Curry was ever in shape then he could play in a more up tempo style. Problem is Eddy was almost never in shape and he sure looks worse now with the Knicks. Also while the Bulls played quick with Skiles, Curry was used to score at the beginning of games and was generally not in the line-up when the Bulls played their fast paced line-up. Chandler would play center and Curry did sit most of the 4th quarter.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Cager said:


> I watched or attended almost of all the Bulls games when Curry was in Chicago. If Curry was ever in shape then he could play in a more up tempo style. Problem is Eddy was almost never in shape and he sure looks worse now with the Knicks. Also while the Bulls played quick with Skiles, Curry was used to score at the beginning of games and was generally not in the line-up when the Bulls played their fast paced line-up. Chandler would play center and Curry did sit most of the 4th quarter.



that was 1 season.2004-05 in the 4th the bulls went to gordon, so they didn't really need curry , they needed defense , so they went to Chandler on most nights in the 4th, unless gordon was cold.

in 03-04 chandler could barely play when he wasn't hurt, curry wasn't being benched for him at all.

in 02-03 curry finished games pretty much all the time after struggling earlier in the season , chandler wound up getting bench for him.

01-02 miller was the main man in the middle.


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## Cager (Jun 13, 2002)

Da Grinch said:


> that was 1 season.2004-05 in the 4th the bulls went to gordon, so they didn't really need curry , they needed defense , so they went to Chandler on most nights in the 4th, unless gordon was cold.
> 
> in 03-04 chandler could barely play when he wasn't hurt, curry wasn't being benched for him at all.
> 
> ...


The only time Curry was close to being in shape was his last year with the Bulls and that took until late December. The relevant time, we are discussing a fast paced offense, was 04-05 because that was Skiles first full year with the Bulls. Before that the Bulls were not a faced paced offense. The up tempo line up was Chandler, Noc, Deng, Ben and Kirk. Chandler always played the 4th quarter in the second half of 2004-2005. That was when the Bulls made their first big run at the playoffs. 

Again 01-04 is irrelevant to this discussion.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Cager said:


> The only time Curry was close to being in shape was his last year with the Bulls and that took until late December. The relevant time, we are discussing a fast paced offense, was 04-05 because that was Skiles first full year with the Bulls. Before that the Bulls were not a faced paced offense. The up tempo line up was Chandler, Noc, Deng, Ben and Kirk. Chandler always played the 4th quarter in the second half of 2004-2005. That was when the Bulls made their first big run at the playoffs.
> 
> Again 01-04 is irrelevant to this discussion.


thats ridiculous.

he's on the team for 4 years but only 1 year counts .

well in most of his seasons , he unfortunately always seem to play himself into shape and was usually in shape by late december, any1 who follows his career can see that .


it seems rather foolish to discount any season except curry's 3rd coach's 1st full seasoncartwright played a fast pace...in fact an easy case could be made he played a slightly faster 1 than skiles by league standards



skiles isn't the end all be all of coaches , curry has had by my count 6 in his nba career counting D'Antoni,


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## Cager (Jun 13, 2002)

Da Grinch said:


> thats ridiculous.
> 
> he's on the team for 4 years but only 1 year counts .
> 
> ...


 No sense continuing the discussion with you. You believe strongly that what you think is correct. That causes you not to internalize what the others point of view may be. Perhaps you should look at Hollinger and possessions per game so you can see what the pace really was during the time frame.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Cager said:


> No sense continuing the discussion with you. You believe strongly that what you think is correct. That causes you not to internalize what the others point of view may be. Perhaps you should look at Hollinger and possessions per game so you can see what the pace really was during the time frame.


i dont think you really have been paying attention to my posts on this thread at all...but ok , 1ce more with feeling.

2002-03 bulls possessions per game 95.9 4th in league
2003-04 bulls possesions a game 93.8 8th in league
2004-05 possesions agame 96.3 according to you the only one that matters for 5th in the league.
2005-06bulls possesions a game 95.9 a game for 5th in league 
2006-07 bulls possesions per game 93.8 for 8th in the league.



http://www.databasebasketball.com/leaders/teamseasonsearch.htm

you can look up stats to your hearts content there.



> Originally Posted by Cager
> The only time Curry was close to being in shape was his last year with the Bulls and that took until late December. The relevant time, we are discussing a fast paced offense, *was 04-05 because that was Skiles first full year with the Bulls. Before that the Bulls were not a faced paced offense.* The up tempo line up was Chandler, Noc, Deng, Ben and Kirk. Chandler always played the 4th quarter in the second half of 2004-2005. That was when the Bulls made their first big run at the playoffs.
> 
> Again 01-04 is irrelevant to this discussion.


i think its obvious now that you were wrong the bulls were already a fast paced offense before skiles got there , if anything they were faster comparative to the league which is what i said earlier ...but i know you need more proof so here it is .


http://www.82games.com/levbot.htm

with the rule changes instituted before the 04-05 season the league avg. 3.8 more possesions a game ...yet the bulls were only up 0.4 from 2 years prior under cartright , and never reached 4th or better in the league again in possesions per game.

maybe you need to brush up on your hollinger be4 you bring that stuff to me.

i see your point of view...you are just incorrect because you were following perception instead what actually happened.

fyi: i watch alot of bulls games too.


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## Cager (Jun 13, 2002)

I'm glad you looked up the stats. 

I think what I've been saying is that Curry's past experience does not provide support that he will fit in well with a faced paced offense. I'm not saying that it can't happen , just that there is no evidence. On the pace issue and possessions, the stats are full game possessions. Curry didn't play a lot in his first two years and he was quite inexperienced which is why I excluded those years as being irrelevant. He played a lot in the second half of 2003-2004 and played quite well. That was a slow paced offense focused a lot on pick and roll with Crawford and Curry. In 2004-2005, the first quarter was slow paced as it was used to get offense from Curry. The rest of the game was played at a faster clip. Curry went to the Knicks after that. 

I think the statement that Crawford and Curry are more comfortable with a half court offense is fully supported by their play. Crawford can fast break but he also likes to dribble alot. It is logical also for someone to look at Curry and his inability to stay in shape and think he may struggle with a fast paced offense.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

Crawford has always been a good open court player but his skillset also makes him very good in the halfcourt.Early on he didnt have much control and would push the ball with reckless abandon kinda reminded me alot of how Nate played his rookie year ...he had to learn to slow down.Walsh even made similar comments about him doing that very thing right before brown took over. Over the the past two seasons he has really put it all together in terms of style of play .He can make the three, score in the open court,off screen and roll,isolations and curl plays .Hes a legit all around scorer now it doesnt matter which style he plays .

Curry can run ,is agile,has good footwork and hands, and is one of the few centers that has the ability to re-adjust his body mid air to make a shot but it all depends on him getting and staying in good shape. 

The OP says jefferies is good in a uptempo system but Crawford has trouble . How do you take that seriously? If you polled GM's around the nba how many do you think would agree that Crawfords game is not good for an uptempo system ? They would think they were being punked or something.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Cager said:


> I'm glad you looked up the stats.
> 
> I think what I've been saying is that Curry's past experience does not provide support that he will fit in well with a faced paced offense. I'm not saying that it can't happen , just that there is no evidence. On the pace issue and possessions, the stats are full game possessions. Curry didn't play a lot in his first two years and he was quite inexperienced which is why I excluded those years as being irrelevant. He played a lot in the second half of 2003-2004 and played quite well. That was a slow paced offense focused a lot on pick and roll with Crawford and Curry. In 2004-2005, the first quarter was slow paced as it was used to get offense from Curry. The rest of the game was played at a faster clip. Curry went to the Knicks after that.
> 
> I think the statement that Crawford and Curry are more comfortable with a half court offense is fully supported by their play. Crawford can fast break but he also likes to dribble alot. It is logical also for someone to look at Curry and his inability to stay in shape and think he may struggle with a fast paced offense.


all you have is opinion , not accurate ones at that .

you spoke about how skiles was the one who brought uptempo to the bulls ...until i showed you were wrong , and actually had the gumption to tell me to look up the stats as if you knew them when you obviously didn't.

check your words you spouted about possessions per game...only to find out they commpletely contradict what you say.

until you can back up what you say , i'm simply considering you a troll on the knicks board.


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## Tha Freak (Dec 5, 2006)

^lol

okay so he's a troll because he has a different opinion!


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Tha Freak said:


> ^lol
> 
> okay so he's a troll because he has a different opinion!


nope he's a troll because he is a troll ....Cager's posts are untouched....different opinions are fine...but may be debated...troll posts get deleted.


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## mynetsforlife (Dec 27, 2006)

Da Grinch said:


> nope he's a troll because he is a troll ....Cager's posts are untouched....different opinions are fine...but may be debated...troll posts get deleted.


Care to explain the clause before the first ellipse? PM is fine, if you deem that as the correct venue of communication.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

Curry is very questionable for any team that will run at an eight straight minute uptempo pace. Curry has yet to prove in his career that he is a crunch-time player. 
And Crawford pretty cross-over dribbling does slow down an uptempo team, especially with his bad decision making. Crawford feels as if he has to dribble the ball everytime he touch the ball (and thats bad). Steve Nash is looking for the next pass to make before dribbling or shooting. 
These are built in B-Ball habits.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Kiyaman said:


> Curry is very questionable for any team that will run at an eight straight minute uptempo pace. Curry has yet to prove in his career that he is a crunch-time player.
> And Crawford pretty cross-over dribbling does slow down an uptempo team, especially with his bad decision making. Crawford feels as if he has to dribble the ball everytime he touch the ball (and thats bad). Steve Nash is looking for the next pass to make before dribbling or shooting.
> These are built in B-Ball habits.


the stats say different .

the stats say when crawford is on the court , the knicks pace picks up they shoot more and score more ...the also shoot a higher %...after 4 years it cant be considered luck...also crawford's passing statisically has been excellent considering how much he handles the ball(over half of his assists were for layups or dunks , something only a handful of the league's point guards achieve) his turnovers are low, he finds players for easy scores at a ratio of his assists that top point guards do like nash.

as for curry teams have been trying to turn him into a franchise pound the ball in center for 4 years now...and pounding it in makes the team's tempo slow, without having to fight for position as much , he should have more energy to run the floor , not less.

the last time he wasn't was under cartwright and he led the league in FG% and the team was 4th in the league possesions a agame , the suns last season i believe finished 5th, so its comparable. and in theory the knicks seem to be built along those lines of the 2002-03 bulls as far as Curry's teammates .

a ballhandling point forward type(jalen rose on the bulls , galineri on the knicks)

jamal crawford ...on both teams .

nate robinson on the knicks and jay williams 2 smaller speedy pg's.

the bulls aquired duhon later who is a knicks now.

i think the current knicks with their ballhandlers can remove much the decision making from curry making him basically what he is , just a finisher, an excellent one and part time guy to run an offense through...i agree with you he hasn't proven himself as a consistent clutchtime player.


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