# Let's trade Zach and draft Sean May!



## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

If Sean May declares for the draft (and he should--when will his stock ever be higher?), Portland should definitely grab him. He's the same size as Randolph, but he's smarter, more disciplined, and has much better bloodlines (Former Indiana star Scott May is his father, and he has the Tarheel pedigree). Think of the energy, enthusiasm, and character May would add to the team. He's a bull inside, he has a very accurate touch, and can also play the team game (unlike Randolph). In short, he's a much better teammate and buddy for Telfair and Outlaw than Randolph will ever be. 

We could trade Randolph for the shooting guard we need, and with May in the lineup we wouldn't miss a beat. I'd love to see Sean May wearing a Blazer jersey next year. How 'bout you?

http://www.sportingnews.com/experts/kyle-veltrop/20050405.html


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## NateBishop3 (Jul 22, 2003)

So are you saying keep Reef then?


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

How was the defense on May last night?


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## cpt.napalm (Feb 23, 2005)

I am on the fence on this one. I am a personal advocate for having a fire sale at PF and filling that in the draft or in free agency. May was a beast in the tourney and looks good. I would just like to see him in a few wrok outs before I am sold. I do like his heritage and his work ethics seem good.


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## NateBishop3 (Jul 22, 2003)

so let me get this straight though... you want to trade a guy who HAS averaged 20 and 10 in the NBA for a guy who COULD average 20 and 10...

This has been done before... Jerry Krause traded Elton Brand for Tyson Chandler... Think he wants that trade back?


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## cimalee (Apr 17, 2003)

are you crazy do you know that Zach is a great offensive talent , Randoplh has way more upside hes a 20/10 guy those are rare homie


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> How was the defense on May last night?


They did everything they could to stop him, but nothing worked. He backed in, bowled over, and outmuscled everyone they put on him. In the process, he fouled out their starting center, and very nearly fouled out the backup. The guy is really tenacious when he gets the ball, and he has a nice finishing touch--shot 10 of 11 from the field. The way May was using the backboard reminded me of the great performance Walton had in the NCAA finals way back when.


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## cimalee (Apr 17, 2003)

May reminds me of a pudge K mart


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

NateBishop3 said:


> so let me get this straight though... you want to trade a guy who HAS averaged 20 and 10 in the NBA for a guy who COULD average 20 and 10...
> 
> This has been done before... Jerry Krause traded Elton Brand for Tyson Chandler... Think he wants that trade back?


 :clap:


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> so let me get this straight though... you want to trade a guy who HAS averaged 20 and 10 in the NBA for a guy who COULD average 20 and 10...


Yes. 

1) Randolph is a ball-hog. May isn't. He knows how to play a team game.
2) Randolph has serious character issues. May doesn't. His father was a class act, and he comes from a classy college program.
3) Randolph is not the kind of guy I want around Telfair and Outlaw. May is.
4) Finally . . . statistics don't tell the whole story about a player. Randolph's 20 and 10 come with a price. He's a selfish player who pouts when he doesn't get his way, and he thinks of his own game before the team's. I think Sean May would always put the team first. And I LOVE May's intelligence and character. He reminds me of Grant Hill in that regard.


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

NateBishop3 said:


> so let me get this straight though... you want to trade a guy who HAS averaged 20 and 10 in the NBA for a guy who COULD average 20 and 10...
> 
> This has been done before... Jerry Krause traded Elton Brand for Tyson Chandler... Think he wants that trade back?



For me, the upside would be getting and experienced and talented shooting guard. That's the Blazers' biggest need. Zach could bring that.


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## SodaPopinski (Aug 10, 2004)

Why is it that every time a college (Sean May) or a high school (Gerald Green) player has a good game in a high profile game, people are always quick to suggest we should get him?

Folks, it's one game. Granted, they are both talented guys, but I'm sure there are better prospects out there.

-Pop


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## NateBishop3 (Jul 22, 2003)

Talkhard said:


> Yes.
> 1) Randolph is a ball-hog. May isn't. He knows how to play a team game.
> 2) Randolph has serious character issues. May doesn't. His father was a class act, and he comes from a classy college program.
> 3) Randolph is not the kind of guy I want around Telfair and Outlaw. May is.
> 5) Finally . . . statistics don't tell the whole story about a player. Randolph's 20 and 10 come with a price. He's a selfish player who pouts when he doesn't get his way, and he thinks of his own game before the team's. I think Sean May would always put the team first. And I LOVE May's intelligence and character. He reminds me of Grant Hill in that regard.


Randolph is NOT a ballhog. Would you honestly pass out to Damon Stoudamire, Nick Van Exel, or Derek Anderson? Seriously, I'm tired of this argument. THe Oregonian sold it and a lot of you bought it. 

I also don't buy that Randolph has character issues. He's one of the nicest guys in the locker room. 

He's only 23 years old. My god people. Give the kid some time to get better. The fact that he's THIS good at THIS age says something. If you don't think Charles Barkley was selfish and cared about stats at this age then you are nuts. 

There's something about Zach that I think a lot of people don't appreciate. He has the ability to score in bunches. The guy can just explode for points. That's rare in the NBA. 

And he WANTS to get better....


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

SodaPopinski said:


> Why is it that every time a college (Sean May) or a high school (Gerald Green) player has a good game in a high profile game, people are always quick to suggest we should get him?
> 
> Folks, it's one game. Granted, they are both talented guys, but I'm sure there are better prospects out there.
> 
> -Pop


May "led" throughout the entire tournament.


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

I think this is a tremendous opportunity to draft a probable future star like Gerald Green. The guy can do it all on the offensive side of things, he can shoot with the best and has the athleticism of McGrady/Kobe/ J.R. Smith. I think it would be a complete and utter waste to take someone like May over Green. We already have our 20/10 PF and even if we didn't, Green's upside alone is worth more than what May did last night.


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## cimalee (Apr 17, 2003)

Randolph is a big time talent just lacks d but makes up for it , hes still young and wants to get better


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> Why is it that every time a college (Sean May) or a high school (Gerald Green) player has a good game in a high profile game, people are always quick to suggest we should get him?
> 
> Folks, it's one game.


No, it's not. Read the article I attached with my original post. May had a sensational performance in every game of the tournament. Without him, NC would never have made it to the championship game.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

altho I agree with Soda on the "whats hot this week" mentality of a LOT of fans..there's a reason none of us are in the game of scouting.

we're too quick to fall for the "latest thing" (especially if that latest thing isn't even considered a lotto pick) because he had a couple good games. 

The difference in Green and May is, Green could come out as a sr in high school, May couldn't. 

Plus, a lot of players can have a good tourny, and still not be good players. See: Ed O'Bannon.

Also, a player working his butt off like May isn't someone you take with a top 5 pick, unless you're just taking more role players.


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## SodaPopinski (Aug 10, 2004)

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that maybe we should trust the organization's scouts and player personnel guys on this one.

In other words, I'd be surprised if they took Sean May.

-Pop


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> Green's upside alone is worth more than what May did last night.


Maybe . . . . However, Green has proven nothing at the college level, which is much more difficult than high school. Look at Emeka Okafur. He's playing like a star for Charlotte, while Dwight Howard still has a way to go in Orlando. I'll bet if Charlotte had a chance to do last year's draft over again, they'd still take Okafur over the high school kid.


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

Here we see the inherent flaw of all inquisitions.

Once the original enemy is purged (Sheed, Bonzi), then a new enemy MUST be found. Today it is Zach. Next month it will be Joel, or Outlaw, or Telfair.


:cannibal:


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> Here we see the inherent flaw of all inquisitions.
> 
> Once the original enemy is purged (Sheed, Bonzi), then a new enemy MUST be found. Today it is Zach. Next month it will be Joel, or Outlaw, or Telfair.


So many enemies, so little time . . .

Seriously, though, some inquisitions are necessary. I love the idea of hosing out the dreck on this team and going only with character guys. Portland could become the example of how to do it "right" in the NBA.


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## Utherhimo (Feb 20, 2005)

i think all this stems from us not knowning what will happen but want something to happen to bring us back to being a power agian.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that maybe we should trust the organization's scouts and player personnel guys on this one.


So if they draft May you'll be just fine with it?


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Talkhard said:


> Maybe . . . . However, Green has proven nothing at the college level, which is much more difficult than high school. Look at Emeka Okafur. He's playing like a star for Charlotte, while Dwight Howard still has a way to go in Orlando. I'll bet if Charlotte had a chance to do last year's draft over again, they'd still take Okafur over the high school kid.



I don't know. I think Orlando is happy with what they got and probably would take it the same way again...especially since Orlando got the #1 pick last year and not Charlotte.

Plus, it's not like Okafur's 15 points and 11 boards is monumentally better than Howards 11 points and 10 boards, right? Their blocks is just about even too. Howard actually shoots better.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

Talkhard said:


> They did everything they could to stop him, but nothing worked. He backed in, bowled over, and outmuscled everyone they put on him. In the process, he fouled out their starting center, and very nearly fouled out the backup. The guy is really tenacious when he gets the ball, and he has a nice finishing touch--shot 10 of 11 from the field. The way May was using the backboard reminded me of the great performance Walton had in the NCAA finals way back when.


It's not like May was going up against very tough competition. Yes Illinois was a #1 but all year they have been critized for being weak down low. Not to take anything away from May, but he didn't "dominate" great low post talent. I just don't see May being any better then Nick Collision, so why trade Zach for him?


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

MAS RipCity said:


> ...I just don't see May being any better then Nick Collision, so why trade Zach for him?


Hmmmm.....compare Collison's rookie year vs. Zach's. Sure, Z-Bo was behind Sheed, but still not _mas_ turning heads.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

ABM said:


> Hmmmm.....compare Collison's rookie year vs. Zach's. Sure, Z-Bo was behind Sheed, but still not _mas_ turning heads.


you mean the year where Collison played 0 games? 

and also, Zach was behind Sheed, Dale Davis & Kemp.

And Collison was also *24* years old when he first played in the NBA this year.

so really, you should compare Zach's 2nd year to Collisons 2nd year.


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## Foulzilla (Jan 11, 2005)

NateBishop3 said:


> Randolph is NOT a ballhog. Would you honestly pass out to Damon Stoudamire, Nick Van Exel, or Derek Anderson? Seriously, I'm tired of this argument. THe Oregonian sold it and a lot of you bought it.
> 
> I also don't buy that Randolph has character issues. He's one of the nicest guys in the locker room.
> 
> ...



Well said. I'm still amazed how quickly everyone is willing to turn on people. Zach is present where his brother (not him) got involved in trouble with the law. Now he is a bad seed?

The thing I see with Zach that makes me want to stick with him is exactly what Nate said. He wants to get better. It was obvious to me that he was actively looking for the pass more in his last few games before injury. He will eventually develop into at least a decent passer if he retains that will (and I see no reason why he won't).


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Yes, let's draft [flavor of the week player] and trade [borderline all star].

Great idea.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Fork said:


> Yes, let's draft [flavor of the week player] and trade [borderline all star].
> 
> Great idea.


I think it's more "Let's trade [borderline all star] FOR the draft pick so we can take [flavor of the week player]"

or is that what you meant?


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> Zach is present where his brother (not him) got involved in trouble with the law. Now he is a bad seed?


I don't know about you, but I would never walk into a bar with a guy carrying a loaded gun. That Zach did shows a severe lack of good judgement. He also lied to the police about the incident. Twice.

Zach also sucker-punched Patterson, if I'm not mistaken. And he got into trouble in high school as well.

I'm not saying that young guys can't learn from their mistakes and become better people, but I would rather go with guys that have never had character issues in the first place.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Talkhard said:


> I don't know about you, but I would never walk into a bar with a guy carrying a loaded gun. That Zach did shows a severe lack of good judgement. He also lied to the police about the incident. Twice.


what if you don't know the guy has a gun?



> Zach also sucker-punched Patterson, if I'm not mistaken. And he got into trouble in high school as well.


Michael Jordan punched Steve Kerr once. And KG has punched several teammates.

because guess what? players fight. hmygaw:


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Hap said:


> I think it's more "Let's trade [borderline all star] FOR the draft pick so we can take [flavor of the week player]"
> 
> or is that what you meant?


You are correct.


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

Talkhard said:


> So many enemies, so little time . . .
> 
> Seriously, though, some inquisitions are necessary. I love the idea of hosing out the dreck on this team and going only with character guys. Portland could become the example of how to do it "right" in the NBA.


There are better places to start.

May is listed at 6'9", but some scouts say he is closer to 6'7". He has struggled with weight/conditioning most of his career. He has good skills, but very average talent.

May is the anti-Villanueva. Both those guys are worth a gamble in the latter part of the round, but neither is worth a top 10 pick. 

As for cleaning out the dreck, Miles and Damon rate way above Zach. If you factor in *basketball* and financial reasons, DA and Theo also need to go.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Talkhard said:


> Maybe . . . . However, Green has proven nothing at the college level, which is much more difficult than high school. Look at Emeka Okafur. He's playing like a star for Charlotte, while Dwight Howard still has a way to go in Orlando. I'll bet if Charlotte had a chance to do last year's draft over again, they'd still take Okafur over the high school kid.


Charlotte didn't take Okafor over Howard. Orlando took Howard over Okafor. 

Howard's been at least Okafor's equal this year... and in many respects his superior.

Charlotte might be happy with their pick, but considering Howard's over three years younger and Okafor's shooting under 45% from the floor, given the choice today I think that 90% or more of NBA teams would take Howard over Okafor any day of the week.

Ed O.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

I'm not opposed to trading Zach, considering the presence of SAR, Zach's hefty contract and (presumably) his value around the NBA, but trading him and hoping to plug in May seems a bit off. May, if he comes out, is going to be lucky to squeek into the lottery, and if he proves to be smaller than listed (as OMG noted he might) then he might not even be a first round pick.

Ed O.


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## NateBishop3 (Jul 22, 2003)

Here's the problem with Okafor... do you HONESTLY think he's going to get a whole lot better? I mean..... REALLY?

Same story with May.... how much better could he possibly get? He's like Shane Battier... what you see is what you get. 

Zach on the other hand is already a solid power forward in the NBA, and he CAN GET BETTER... that's what's scary...


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

May is the equivelent to Corliss Williamson. Both could dominate college ball with their physical play, but when he gets to the NBA he will be a bench player at best, and then if he doesn't get his conditioning down, he will not even be that. If Portland drafts May with our draft pick I will lose all confidence in the management of the team.


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## CanJohno (Feb 11, 2005)

*Someone* has been reading FAR too many John Canzano (a.k.a. CanJohno :biggrin: ) "columns".


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

NateBishop3 said:


> Here's the problem with Okafor... do you HONESTLY think he's going to get a whole lot better? I mean..... REALLY?
> 
> Same story with May.... how much better could he possibly get? He's like Shane Battier... what you see is what you get.
> 
> Zach on the other hand is already a solid power forward in the NBA, and he CAN GET BETTER... that's what's scary...


I think that Okafor has more upside than Zach. He's physically much more gifted: taller, longer, and more athletic.

Zach's a skilled player, but I don't see how he can get that much better than he is... defensively, he can improve, and passing the basketball he can improve, but he'll never be a shotblocker/intimidator and he'll never be big enough to play the 5.

Okafor's not as skillful offensively, but he should get better over time. Defensively, he's already at least Zach's equal and his size will allow him to play the center spot.

Dwight Howard's even further on the "potential" side of things. He's terrifically athletic and can improve in a lot of areas.

One example of this spectrum is the Zach-Amare comparison. Many on this board preferred Zach to Amare even as recently as this past offseason. For some of us on this board (and many more observers generally) it was clear that Amare was going to be significantly better as soon as his skills started to catch up with his other attributes.

I'm not posting this to rip into Zach; he's a good player and he's certainly valuable to the Blazers. He's just not an upper-echelon player now (I think we'll all agree) and his physical tools probably will never allow him to become so (I know we all will NOT agree here, but it's IMO).

Ed O.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

delete. Double post.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Talkhard said:


> No, it's not. Read the article I attached with my original post. May had a sensational performance in every game of the tournament. Without him, NC would never have made it to the championship game.


Look at all the pushover big guys that he played against in the tournament....None of them are high quality big men....Paul Davis is the most decent out of the bunch and defensively he is horrible.....There is a reason that May was considered best player in the tournament but didnt any kind of recognition as the best player in the nation during the regular season...

And I'm actually a big Sean May fan, but he shouldnt be anything more than a late first rounder and will probably end up like a Tractor Traylor in the league...


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

According to this article May isnt coming out until 2006.....

http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/366940.html



> "You don't need to worry about me staying one more year - you need to worry about some of the other guys staying one more year," he told the more than 11,000 fans at the Smith Center Tuesday afternoon.


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## ZBoFanatic (Feb 10, 2003)

Sean May will be a solid NBA player. When Marion played Bloomington North in the state game, May was their best player, better than Jeffries; having said that, Zach was still by far the player on the floor.

May will be a solid starter in the NBA for years though for sure, but he'll never be the impact player that Zach is (when healthy).


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## cpt.napalm (Feb 23, 2005)

I know that Zach seems like a new flavor of the week target for ill will. I didn't like him from the start and I still don't. He is a black hole on offense. He scores 20 points and grabs 10 boards but how many times does he have to be fed the ball to do that. He isn't a presence in the paint that other teams have to plan around. Rarely does he get double teamed. He is too small to be dominant in a league where he is on the small end of the spectrum. He can't just turn back in and score at will. I could care less about what he does or did off court. I don't like how he plays. Plus it will be seen how well he can recover from this injury. 

I am advocating getting a stronger bigger PF. A Buck Williams, Dennis Rodman type that can be that anchor down low, a rebound hound that can play some D on the bigger PF's in the league. Maybe Sean May or another draft pick can fill that position. I see Zach as an investment that will have diminishing returns. Trade him while he is a commodity and not wait for the decline. I hopped on the Sean May train because he was dominant through out the whole tourney. He may not be the answer but I feel we need a new PF.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

cpt.napalm said:


> I know that Zach seems like a new flavor of the week target for ill will. I didn't like him from the start and I still don't. He is a black hole on offense. He scores 20 points and grabs 10 boards but how many times does he have to be fed the ball to do that. He isn't a presence in the paint that other teams have to plan around. Rarely does he get double teamed. He is too small to be dominant in a league where he is on the small end of the spectrum. He can't just turn back in and score at will. I could care less about what he does or did off court. I don't like how he plays. Plus it will be seen how well he can recover from this injury.
> 
> I am advocating getting a stronger bigger PF. A Buck Williams, Dennis Rodman type that can be that anchor down low, a rebound hound that can play some D on the bigger PF's in the league. Maybe Sean May or another draft pick can fill that position. I see Zach as an investment that will have diminishing returns. Trade him while he is a commodity and not wait for the decline. I hopped on the Sean May train because he was dominant through out the whole tourney. He may not be the answer but I feel we need a new PF.


I do agree that Zach isn't the guy they need to hitch their wagon too (I'm not sure they have that guy yet, altho I think Telfair is a much better choice). But I don't see how Sean May who they say is 6'9" but might be more like 6'7"..and weighs 266...Zach is 253, I don't know how 13 pounds of weight (not necessarily muscle) makes him a better PF.

All that said, if we can trade Zach and re-sign Shareef, May might not be a bad *backup* PF, with a 2nd 1st round pick in the late teens early 20's. But I doubt he'd be worth a potentially top 4 pick.


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## BBALLSCIENCES (Oct 16, 2004)

That would not be a good decision. Drafting a player that is inferior to the one you have would be exactly what some of you are asking for. In high school Zach Randolph's team beat Bloomington North, a team that had both Jared Jeffries and Sean May. Jeffries is already in the league and Sean will soon join then. What does that say about Zach? I'll let you answer that,but I hope this talk is now over.


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## cpt.napalm (Feb 23, 2005)

Hap said:


> I do agree that Zach isn't the guy they need to hitch their wagon too (I'm not sure they have that guy yet, altho I think Telfair is a much better choice). But I don't see how Sean May who they say is 6'9" but might be more like 6'7"..and weighs 266...Zach is 253, I don't know how 13 pounds of weight (not necessarily muscle) makes him a better PF.
> 
> All that said, if we can trade Zach and re-sign Shareef, May might not be a bad *backup* PF, with a 2nd 1st round pick in the late teens early 20's. But I doubt he'd be worth a potentially top 4 pick.


 I am not sold on Sean May he seems to be able to be more dominant given his size than Zach. But I would much rather see us get Bogut for a PF. Or even keep Shareef over Zach. I say look to Free Agency for a PF this year and use the draft for a SG if Bogut isn't available. Are there any PF's available in free agency?

Well ones worth having?


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## tlong (Jan 6, 2003)

I see Sean May as being another Carlos Boozer type player. Good, but not spectacular. I would take him with a mid to low first round pick, but not before.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

> Jerry Krause traded Elton Brand for Tyson Chandler... Think he wants that trade back?


He would, if he hadn't lost his job over it (and other ill concieved moves).,....

A good and much needed point made....


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## SodaPopinski (Aug 10, 2004)

So much for that theory. Looks like Big Sean is staying put.



> "I love ya'll. Thank ya'll. We're going to try to come back and do it next year," May said. "Along with that I'm going to try to get some of these guys to come back with me."


Link 

-Pop


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Kmurph said:


> He would, if he hadn't lost his job over it (and other ill concieved moves).,....
> 
> A good and much needed point made....


Is it, though? Brand is a better player than Chandler is now, and has been MUCH better since the trade has been made.

But how much benefit have the Clippers received and how much cost have they incurred?

The Clippers have still missed the playoffs every year. Would Brand have been good enough to push the Bulls into the playoffs? I doubt it.

Because they had to spend so much on Brand, the Clippers let Odom and Richardson and Miller go. Might they have let them all go, even if they hadn't been committing such big money to Brand? Maybe, but the odds are they would have been willing to at least do a sign-and-trade, taking back some salary along with value for the free agents.

As a result of moving Brand, the Bulls got:

-- to take a chance on a younger, bigger player
-- to save millions of dollars avoiding Brand's free agency
-- get better draft picks as the team avoided mediocrity

If Chandler would have been all he was cracked up to be, the Bulls would have made out very well. Since he's turned out to be a disappointment (to date) they've struggled in the standings the last few years, but they've been able to be more financially successful and add additional talent because of their very bad teams... which might have only been "bad" if they'd had Brand on them (instead of "very bad").

I think it was a move that actually was pretty good for the Bulls.

Ed O.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

Why does everyone hate Zach Randolph so much? It seems like the kid can do nothing right in the eyes of some of you guys.


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## Utherhimo (Feb 20, 2005)

the cannedhamzano press then his injury made them hate him, I dont hate him but i am worried we have another Bill Walton on our hands. Which is sad cus i have been rooting for ZBo.


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

MAS RipCity said:


> Why does everyone hate Zach Randolph so much? It seems like the kid can do nothing right in the eyes of some of you guys.



:whoknows: Somebody has to be the scapegoat. Zach was a late 1st round pick who made himself into a borderline all-star by pure hard work. Sadly, some people would rather focus on what he *isn't*, instead of what he is.

To many fans there are only 2 kinds of players - superstars and total bums. IMHO, the whole thing is just silly.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

Well niether team has been a model for success until recently Ed, and even that is debatable. But just player for player, I wouldn't even consider trading Brand for Chandler now, and Tyson is due for a big raise this year or the next, so the Bulls will be facing the same dilemma that the Clips did very soon. I don't view delaying that process as a bonus either, especially if you are losing a lot of games in the process. It is like "What's the point?", you know? Yeah your saving money, but are you really going anywhere? 

Let me put it this way, how many Blazer fans are willing to be in the lottery for the next 2-4 years before they can begin to climb out of the hole? Not very many I'd wager....Sure the club save money, but they still suck and their fans sure aren't happy about it, just look at many of the people are griping already on the board 
here.

I view Miller, Odom, and Q-Rich's departures more as a result of Sterling's cheap ways than anything else. Frankly, I am surprised he decided to hold on to 2 of the players (Maggette & Brand) in the 1st place. I think Sterling didn't want to negotiate a S&T with those guys under any circumstance, b\c doing so would mean spending money. So having Brand signed didn't deter Sterling one way or the other, as IMO he was never going to S&T those guys anyway. I maintain that Sterling is not interested in winning a title, probably never has been. He just likes to see an exciting event and be "seen" out there. That is why he likes a team with young, cheap players, that can have SOME moderation of success & can generate some level of excitement. That is also why I think he agreed to keep Maggette and Brand. I seriously doubt he is losing money on the Clips, even with those guys contracts. I doubt he pays another big salary though, he will probably let Jaric and\or Simmons both walk. Jaric for sure, as he has a player (Livingston) to take his place. The Clips are nothing but a showy toy for Sterling, and always will be IMO. I can't blame Brand for that, actually I feel sorry for both he and Maggette. In hindsight they both should have waited another year to become UFA and then they wouldn't be in this predicament. 

I do think that a CHI team with Brand & Curry is a much better team than the one with Chandler & Curry though, and that a Clipper team with Chandler & Kaman would be worse than the one with Brand & Kaman. Do you not agree?


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

> Sadly, some people would rather focus on what he *isn't*, instead of what he is.


He wanted and got the near-max contract, so like it or not, what he isn't is just as important as what he is now. A max player shouldn't have glaring weaknesses in their game. Is Zach even above average for starting PF's in the west? Possibly, but not by much.

Dan


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

dkap said:


> He wanted and got the near-max contract, so like it or not, what he isn't is just as important as what he is now. A max player shouldn't have glaring weaknesses in their game. Is Zach even above average for starting PF's in the west? Possibly, but not by much.
> 
> Dan


Yes, Zach is moderately overpaid. Compared to many players in the league, including some current team-mates, it shouldn't be enough to be a major issue. 

Players that can turn a team around single-handedly are in short supply. Zach is not "the answer", but he is part of the answer. If Zach was our biggest problem, this would be a 60+ win team.


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## TP3 (Jan 26, 2003)

The part of May's game that I liked the most was his presence and strength with the ball on the block. No one moved him, he caught it anytime he wanted, he used his body to shield defenders and beat them to the ball if they tried to move around, he saw the floor, he new when to shoot and when to pass, and never missed an open shooter/cutter. That presence is a gift, a few have it and most don't. That skip pass he threw cross court late in the championship game was one I've seen very few posts able to make, let alone see. His passing reminds me of Shaq's. He's good...better than Zach. He's smarter.


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## RipCity9 (Jan 30, 2004)

> May "led" throughout the entire tournament.


That's great and all - but what quality big men was he up against? Illinois was weak up front and everyone knew it going in. The college game is pretty void of power players these days since so many go pro early.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> That's great and all - but what quality big men was he up against?


For Pete's sake, the guy played brilliantly against the best teams in college basketball! What else can he do? He doesn't make the schedule, and he doesn't decide who goes pro early. All he can do is play his heart out and help his team win, and that's what he did all through the NCAA tournament. To criticize his play as you are is like saying Shaq is great only because there is no one else in the NBA as strong as he is. That may be true, but it doesn't take away from Shaq's excellence.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Talkhard said:


> For Pete's sake, the guy played brilliantly against the best teams in college basketball! What else can he do? He doesn't make the schedule, and he doesn't decide who goes pro early. All he can do is play his heart out and help his team win, and that's what he did all through the NCAA tournament. To criticize his play as you are is like saying Shaq is great only because there is no one else in the NBA as strong as he is. That may be true, but it doesn't take away from Shaq's excellence.


It's not to same criticism at all. Shaq is playing at the highest level. If there's no one as strong as he is, then he's the strongest.

May played well in the tournament, which is a point in his favor, but the level of competition matters when we're trying to determine how he will fare at a higher level (the NBA).

That he was "playing his heart out" is nice and all, but it doesn't make that big of a difference if he was doing it against inferior competition.

Of course, inferior competition doesn't mean a guy can't play; LeBron showed that pretty clearly within a few months of beating up on prep players. 

Ed O.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> May played well in the tournament, which is a point in his favor, but the level of competition matters when we're trying to determine how he will fare at a higher level (the NBA).


Yes, and the level of competition was the best in college basketball! All of the teams in the tournament went through a grueling elimination process, and were the best in their areas of the country. Illinois, for example, was a powerhouse team that almost went undefeated. May played exceptionally well against every team that he faced. That's all you can ask of a player.

As you point out, LeBron James didn't exactly face the best talent in the world when he was cruising through his high school career, but no one held that against him. So why should we hold it against May in the NCAA tournament?


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## Utherhimo (Feb 20, 2005)

many scouts think the euro league is better than college basketball right now


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

Let's not forget, Shaq also played against inferior competition in the NCAA, yet he was held largely in check by swarming defenses. There's a reason he didn't win player of the year... Granted, Sean May had a much more dangerous supporting cast than did Shaq, but he was still getting quite a bit of defensive attention and had the court awareness to keep it from being effective.

Dan


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

dkap said:


> Let's not forget, Shaq also played against inferior competition in the NCAA, yet he was held largely in check by swarming defenses. There's a reason he didn't win player of the year... Granted, Sean May had a much more dangerous supporting cast than did Shaq, but he was still getting quite a bit of defensive attention and had the court awareness to keep it from being effective.
> 
> Dan


as a jr: 24 points, 5 blocks, 14 rebounds shooting 62% is being held in check?

and as a soph, 28 points, 14 boards 5 blocks and 63% is in check?


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

I don't see how you couldn't look at May's performance and not be impressed. Yeah, what he has done over the course of his college career should hold a lot more weight.

But was he getting the same number of touches that he did in the tournament? Or did his teamates finally find out what he was capable of when he recieved the ball?

He is better than mock drafts are listing him. Very impressive player and articulate individual, he has his head on right, and IMO that is a VERY big bonus to me. 

I'd take a good player - good\high bball IQ over a great\low bball IQ player anyday.

Just look at POR roster Zach, Miles, Outlaw, Qyntel (before he was run out of town). What do these guys have in common? All UBER-Athletic, with questionable (at best) low BBALL IQ. If your looking for the cause of POR problems, you can start here.

May is a DEFINITE lottery pick, and should be a top 8 pick IMO, if he declared. Particularly if he measures out at 6'9.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Talkhard said:


> For Pete's sake, the guy played brilliantly against the best teams in college basketball! What else can he do? He doesn't make the schedule, and he doesn't decide who goes pro early. All he can do is play his heart out and help his team win, and that's what he did all through the NCAA tournament. To criticize his play as you are is like saying Shaq is great only because there is no one else in the NBA as strong as he is. That may be true, but it doesn't take away from Shaq's excellence.


Zach Randolph put up 20 and 10 for an entire season against the best teams in the NBA, yet you thrash him for his perceived flaws. 

What else can he do?


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Sean May reminds me of Philip Ricci from Oregon State a couple years back.

Even at 6'7", he dominated his college opponents because he was like a football player on th ebasketball court. he had some basketball IQ and he worked hard, and he was strong enough to beat up on college kids, but he just wasn't good enough to be a top NBA prospect. 

Sean May is clearly a little better than Ricci was, but he's not good enough for us to waste a lottery pick on, like some people have suggested.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> He is better than mock drafts are listing him. Very impressive player and articulate individual, he has his head on right, and IMO that is a VERY big bonus to me.
> 
> I'd take a good player - good\high bball IQ over a great\low bball IQ player anyday.
> 
> Just look at POR roster Zach, Miles, Outlaw, Qyntel (before he was run out of town). What do these guys have in common? All UBER-Athletic, with questionable (at best) low BBALL IQ. If your looking for the cause of POR problems, you can start here.


Exactly right. You can't build a championship team around idiots, even though Portland managed to build a very good one with several. I say we go for the smart players who know how to play a team game. Call it the anti-Whitsitt approach.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> Zach Randolph put up 20 and 10 for an entire season against the best teams in the NBA, yet you thrash him for his perceived flaws.
> 
> What else can he do?


You've completely missed the point. Zach Randolph, as good as he is, doesn't make the players around him better. He's not a team-first player, he doesn't pass well, and he isn't particularly smart. At one point he almost caused a mutiny on the team because he wouldn't share the ball. May, on the other hand, has all the physical skills that Randolph does, but he also possesses a better head for the game, and can function smoothly within a team concept. He's the kind of player you can build a championship team around, as North Carolina demonstrated.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Kmurph said:


> I'd take a good player - good\high bball IQ over a great\low bball IQ player anyday.


Why? "Great" is better than "good" so a great player who is great in SPITE of lack of basketball IQ is better than a player that is good in spite of having high basketball IQ.



> Just look at POR roster Zach, Miles, Outlaw, Qyntel (before he was run out of town). What do these guys have in common? All UBER-Athletic, with questionable (at best) low BBALL IQ. If your looking for the cause of POR problems, you can start here.


I would start that, with the exception of Zach, none of those players are very good.



> May is a DEFINITE lottery pick, and should be a top 8 pick IMO, if he declared. Particularly if he measures out at 6'9.


If he is a legit 6'9", I think he will squeak into the lottery. He's just too limited physically to go much higher.

Ed O.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Talkhard said:


> As you point out, LeBron James didn't exactly face the best talent in the world when he was cruising through his high school career, but no one held that against him. So why should we hold it against May in the NCAA tournament?


Because James is big, strong, very athletic and very skilled. Whether he was kicking the crap out of high school kids or not, those things were going to transfer.

James wasn't a great prospect because of what he did against inferior competition. He was a great prospect because of the attributes he possessed as a player.

May-backers are claiming that he's a good prospect because of what he did against inferior (relative to the NBA) competition. A logical counter to that position is to ponder just how inferior the competition was.

Ed O.


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## tlong (Jan 6, 2003)

Please *stop it * with this nonsense about Sean May! He's a good player, but he will NOT be a lottery pick. He will measure out at about 6'7" and he clearly has issues with his weight. I would take Ike Diogu before Sean May any day of the week.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> Why? "Great" is better than "good" so a great player who is great in SPITE of lack of basketball IQ is better than a player that is good in spite of having high basketball IQ.


Geez, talk about analyzing something to death!


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Talkhard said:


> Geez, talk about analyzing something to death!


Great is better than good.

Is it that hard to grasp the concept?


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> Because James is big, strong, very athletic and very skilled. Whether he was kicking the crap out of high school kids or not, those things were going to transfer.


May is not as good as LeBron James, but he is also "big, strong, and very skilled." His total package will transfer to the NBA very nicely.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> Great is better than good.
> 
> Is it that hard to grasp the concept?


Nope. And if Ed O. had said simply that, I wouldn't have replied.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Talkhard said:


> May is not as good as LeBron James, but he is also "big, strong, and very skilled." His total package will transfer to the NBA very nicely.


Aside from a few point guards, everybody in the NBA is big and strong. And to get into the NBA you have to be very skilled, with the exception of a few 7'+ tall guys. It's a matter if May is big, strong and skilled relative to other players in the NBA. I believe he's got the strength, but he's undersized and not all THAT skilled compared to players at his position in the league.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Talkhard said:


> Nope. And if Ed O. had said simply that, I wouldn't have replied.


I don't understand what your reply was about, though. My point was pretty straightforward. Let's look at another example, swapping out height for basketball IQ... and to simplify, let's make it having to do with a particular position (so we don't need to worry about whether a center is more valuable than a guard).

Would you prefer a good, tall point guard, or a great, short point guard?

To me, I'd take the great player any day. 

Ed O.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> Please stop it with this nonsense about Sean May! He's a good player, but he will NOT be a lottery pick. He will measure out at about 6'7" and he clearly has issues with his weight.


Charles Barkley was chubby and only 6'4, but that didn't stop him from being a great power forward.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

Talkhard said:


> Charles Barkley was chubby and only 6'4, but that didn't stop him from being a great power forward.


Exception that proves the rule. The fact that his story is so rare lends credence to the trend... 

Name another 6'4, 6'5, chubby player who turned into a great PF in the NBA. You think Sean May will be that guy? Good luck.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> I don't understand what your reply was about, though. My point was pretty straightforward.


Ed, I just think you misunderstood Kmurph's original post. He was making the point that guys like Qyntel Woods who have great physical skills are not worth picking unless they also have a high basketball IQ. He wasn't suggesting that players like Woods are actually "great," only that they seem "great." 

My apologies to Kmurph if I misinterpreted his point.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> Name another 6'4, 6'5, chubby player who turned into a great PF in the NBA. You think Sean May will be that guy? Good luck.


Sean May will not be that guy becasue he is 6'7 to 6'9. And just for the record, Zach Randolph came into the league a pretty chubby guy, too.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Talkhard said:


> Sean May will not be that guy because he is 6'7 to 6'9. And just for the record, Zach Randolph came into the league a pretty chubby guy, too.


zach also came into the league as a freshman in college, and could've as a senior in high school. Sean May couldn't have.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

> zach also came into the league as a freshman in college, and could've as a senior in high school. Sean May couldn't have.


Zach played one year at Michigan State, so he came to Portland as a sophomore in college. But maybe Sean May is now as good as Zach was then. Doesn't matter WHEN you become good, only that you do!


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Talkhard said:


> Charles Barkley was chubby and only 6'4, but that didn't stop him from being a great power forward.


Charles Barkley had a huge wingspan and hops like I no one else in his weightclass that I can think of... length and explosiveness go a long ways towards making up for a lack of height. Unfortunately for May's pro prospects, I don't see him having those sorts of qualities to (like Charles) be another exeception to the rule of what sort of body type/size it takes to succeed in the league... I could see him making somebody's rotation, but who is he going to guard?

Just eyeballing him, he seems about 6'6 to 6'7 IMO. I'm thinking Corliss Williamson

STOMP


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Talkhard said:


> Zach played one year at Michigan State, so he came to Portland as a sophomore in college. But maybe Sean May is now as good as Zach was then. Doesn't matter WHEN you become good, only that you do!


does that mean that LeBron James came out as a freshman in college?

Nope. Zach came out as a freshman, not a sophomore. His sophomore year didn't start till september (assuming thats when they started).

Maybe Sean May can fart perfume too. Doesn't matter. People are falling in love with him because his team won the title. Big deal.

I ask you again, as you were the one iirc, who said he'd take someone who went to a good school vs someone of equal talent who didn't.

would you take Rasheed Wallace, who went to UNC, over someone who didn't go to UNC who was just as good?


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

I should have specified what I meant by that comment more, in terms of great. Really how many players in the NBA can be classified as great? Anyway.....

What I meant was...An ATHLETICALLY great player or a GREAT SCORER, compared to a average\good player athletically or as an individual scorer, but who has a HIGH bball IQ.

IMO, ALL players in the NBA (with the exception of Ha....j\k) have the talent to play in the NBA, but what truly seperates players is their IQ, and more specifically their bball IQ. I really think this is a VERY improtant and often overlooked attribute teams look for in players (specifically in POR).

POR has a lot of great athletes (Miles, Outlaw, Ruben, Qyntel was a very good athlete), and good indivdual scorers (Zach, Damon) but I think most (all?) of them are lacking in the bball IQ dept, and I do think that it has a significant impact on many of POR deficiencies. The horrific defense, the stagnant offense at times, the total meltdowns in the 4th quarter. 

It just isn't the young or athletic guys either though...Ruben? As low a bball IQ as you can get IMO, Damon? Smart guy, but not a smart bball player. 

Theo? Joel? Great shot blockers, but they have a tendency to become too focused in on it at the team's detriment. How many more offensive putbacks are we going to have to witness from opposing players? Khryapa is the ONLY player I have seen who tries to rotate when Joel or Theo goes for a shot block. Watch Khryapa, I think he is a very smart, team oriented player IMO.

Where is the perimeter defense? I thought Steve Jones sounded like a broken record against UTA, I bet he got tired of saying it over...and over again. 

Defense STARTS at the point of attack...It starts at the perimeter...with the guards...and for the most part (except by some defensive spurts by Telfair) opposing guards are uncontested when making passes to the interior...its pathetic. Where are the players heads? Do they not recognize mismatches? Do they not recognize or capitalize on other teams weak links? Do they not look to put certain players in situations where they excel?

The answer is no, and we can blame the coaching staff all we want but at some point you have to question the level of intelligence of the players on the floor. POR has TOO many players lacking in this department, and it is a fundamental flaw of this team IMO, and one that must be addressed if they have ANY hope of being a playoff contender down the road....Preferably it would be a key aspect of your star player...

I digress a little, but the point regarding Sean May is 1) He is a smart player, probably the smartest player on NC, just listen to the kid talk. 2) He has the athletic ability and talent to play in the NBA 3)He has good\decent size for a PF, at 6'9, mediocre at 6'8...has good post moves...good passer...great hands. He knows his role\strengths and doesn't try to do things he cannot.

Does anyone know, how many touches he averaged per the season compared to the NCAA tourney? I am willing to bet he had far fewer, b\c in the tourney, when he was given the opportunity (ball) he excelled and he delivered. He is a lottery pick, no doubt about it.

I don't know how anyone here could say (and mean it  )...That a guy like Tiago Splitter, Martynas Anndriuskevicius, Fran Vasquez (are you kidding me?) or Nemanja Aleksandrov are BETTER players than May is. NONE of them...NONE have played as well as May did this year.... and don't give me this bull how euroleague is so much better than college ball, I find that VERY debatable...especially when NBA rejects like Marcus Brown, Elmer Bennett, etc are excelling over there. It may be slightly better...and I am not sure that is the case....but if it is, it ain't by much.

If May declares this year, he is definitely a lotto pick and quite possibly a mid lotto pick. I just don't see that many players who are unequivocably better (potential or otherwise) than him in this yeasr draft.

You don't think teams are revisiting their analysis on 6'8-6'9 PF? After watching guys like Zach Randolph & Carlos Boozer excel? How tall is Elton Brand BTW?


(He is 6'8 BTW)


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## tlong (Jan 6, 2003)

Draftcity.com is projecting him at #17 which is not in the lottery.


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## Storyteller (Dec 31, 2002)

Does Sean May remind anyone else of Corliss Williamson?

Personally, I wouldn't want to replace Zach with Corliss and I'm not sure the Blazers should replace him with May.

That is if May even decides to declare...


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

tlong said:


> Draftcity.com is projecting him at #17 which is not in the lottery.


What do they know/ they also have Deron Williams at #10 :biggrin:


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Storyteller said:


> Does Sean May remind anyone else of Corliss Williamson?
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't want to replace Zach with Corliss and I'm not sure the Blazers should replace him with May.
> 
> That is if May even decides to declare...


Corliss or Clarence Weatherspoon


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Storyteller said:


> Does Sean May remind anyone else of Corliss Williamson?


ahhhem...



STOMP said:


> Just eyeballing him, he seems about 6'6 to 6'7 IMO. I'm thinking Corliss Williamson


 

STOMP


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## Storyteller (Dec 31, 2002)

Sorry about that *Stomp*...

I did a cursory skimming of posts before making my point and just missed your earlier statement. You get full credit for beating me to the punch...

But I'm glad to know that someone agrees with me. Corliss looked incredibly dominant at Arkansas and has been a nice role player in the NBA. I'd hate to see the Blazers use a high lottery pick on somebody who would only put up "Corliss-like" numbers.


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## tlong (Jan 6, 2003)

Schilly said:


> What do they know/ they also have Deron Williams at #10 :biggrin:



They probably aren't extremely accurate, but I bet they're in the ballpark. Don't get me started on Deron Williams. I don't want Hap to edit my post. :biggrin:


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

I don't think POR should select him (if he declares). 

Why?

b\c at best you are looking at a marginal upgrade. Zach for all his deficiences can put up 20 & 10 in the NBA, I am not convinced May can. May is a smarter player IMO but I think POR would be making a mistake, addressing a realtively position of strength, in hopes of marginally improving it. Especially with a high lottery pick. 

Although, they may have no choice but to do so, with the depth of PG & PF in the lottery. I would take Chris Taft over May.

I don't think Williamson was nearly as good of a college player as May is though. May has much better skills. I am curious to see what May measures out at though.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Storyteller said:


> Sorry about that *Stomp*...
> 
> I did a cursory skimming of posts before making my point and just missed your earlier statement. You get full credit for beating me to the punch...
> 
> But I'm glad to know that someone agrees with me.


I'm just kidding around... btw, your various postings often keep me silent for redundancy issues  

Again just going by my eyeballs he seems about 6'7ish, maybe... if so, like Corliss I think he's going to have real issues matching up on D. 

Maybe he knows this too... that might have something to do with his stated intention of returning to UNC next season... we'll see.

STOMP


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