# Jamison for NVE trade



## Scinos

Link 

According to the Star-Telegram:


> "Antawn Jamison and Nick Van Exel are the kingpins in an eight-player trade between the Mavericks and the Golden State Warriors that was agreed on Friday night, the Star-Telegram learned.
> 
> "In addition to Jamison, the Warriors' leading scorer the last season, the Mavericks also receive power forward Danny Fortson, small forward Chris Mills and guard Jiri Welsch. Along with Van Exel, the Mavs send Avery Johnson, Evan Eschmeyer and Popeye Jones to Golden State."


Wow...what do G-State fans think of this ?


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## hobojoe

i'm not one, but i bet they're thinking WTF!!?!?!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!:upset: :upset: :upset: 


But its not as bad as it seems. This clears up room for Dunleavy to shine, and shine he will. Getting rid of Fortson is a plus too.


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## OkayOkayOkay

Warriors :no:


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## Petey

They dump Fortson, pick up an expiring contract... and get a point to replace Areans. I think this works well for both teams, but I expect the Mavs to want a more experienced backup point. Kenny Anderson?


-Petey


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## MJG

I think that both teams benefit, but the Mavs benefit a lot more.


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## Hero

WHAT THE **** JUST HAPPENED!!!??? We just went from bad to worst!! Gary St. Jean is obviously a Dallas Mavericks fan… That old hog just needs to pull his head out of his *** once in awhile and we will a World Championship here…

Okay, so we gave up our leading scorer in Twan, and three dead weights for a guy who get piss for not winning, a backup point guard, a dude from a country that’s beyond me, and… POPEYE!! WTF!!!! :upset: :upset: :upset:

St. Jean, if the Warriors don’t win AT LEAST 38 games this year, I’ll personally burn down your house…


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## Anima

I could swear Popeye, Van Exel, Eschmeyer, and Johnson are all from the United States.

Anyway I wish I could tell you guys there is a good side to this but I just don't see one other then Dunleavy getting more time.


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## Petey

> Originally posted by <b>Epadfield</b>!
> I could swear Popeye, Van Exel, Eschmeyer, and Johnson are all from the United States.
> 
> Anyway I wish I could tell you guys there is a good side to this but I just don't see one other then Dunleavy getting more time.


I think he is referring to Evan Eschmeyer.

-Petey


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## Anima

> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> 
> 
> I think he is referring to Evan Eschmeyer.
> 
> -Petey


Yeah, he's from Saint Mary's, Ohio


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## Minstrel

I think this is the first proactive move towards the future the Warriors have made in a long time. They were in the worst, dumbest position possible: a bad team and over the cap.

That means bad with no room to get better. Losing Arenas even took away that chance to get better. As things stood, the Warriors were looking at being bad, with Jamison, for years.

This allows them to get rid of two huge contracts, one of them a player who barely even plays in Fortson. Fortson's numbers are pretty good from a couple seasons ago, except for the fact that he thought he was a go-to guy and kept killing the team's offense. He had a terrible attitude and wouldn't play hard if he didn't start and get shots.

Jirii Welsch is a nice name from the 2002 draft, but he was abysmal last year. He had no shooting ability and looked lost. Perhaps he'll prove the Warriors wrong, but he's certainly not painful for them to give up.

Van Excel will probably keep them at least as good this year as they would have been had they not made the trade and the trade will greatly improve their future, by giving them cap room and the ability to make moves to better themselves.

Of course, I'm generally no fan of St. Jean, so he'll likely screw up that room to maneuver....but, pretending he's a competent GM, this move is great for the future. Layden only dreams he could free up space like that.


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## Scinos

> Originally posted by <b>MJG</b>!
> I think that both teams benefit, but the Mavs benefit a lot more.


Yeah, that seems to be the case...NVE will replace Arenas...but, they lose their leading scorer to do it. 

At least Dunleavy will get some more playing time this season.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Hero</b>!
> 
> St. Jean, if the Warriors don’t win AT LEAST 38 games this year, I’ll personally burn down your house…


Get a little perspective. You act like the Warriors were playoff-bound before this deal.

The Warriors were going to be horrible without Arenas. Van Excel will likely make the Warriors as competitive (which is to say, not much) as they would have been with Jamison.

38 wins? They weren't going to come close to 38 wins this season, anyway.

Incidentally, you want to see a team that hangs on to its overpaid good players and never has room to maneuver, watch the Knicks. See if you'd rather root for that hopeless mess for the next several years.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Scinos</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, that seems to be the case...NVE will replace Arenas...but, they lose their leading scorer to do it.


Who was overpaid, in a previous bad deal.


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## The OUTLAW

This ought to be interesting to see how Van Exel reacts to the trade. He hadn't responded well to being on losing teams in the past, this could be pretty interesting. 

I think it was a pretty lopsided deal in favor of the Mavs but if what they were trying to do was be bad for a year and acquire a good draft pick (ala Cleveland) well I think that mission may be accomplished.


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## Scinos

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Get a little perspective. You act like the Warriors were playoff-bound before this deal.
> 
> The Warriors were going to be horrible without Arenas. Van Excel will likely make the Warriors as competitive (which is to say, not much) as they would have been with Jamison.
> 
> 38 wins? They weren't going to come close to 38 wins this season, anyway.
> 
> Incidentally, you want to see a team that hangs on to its overpaid good players and never has room to maneuver, watch the Knicks. See if you'd rather root for that hopeless mess for the next several years.


Hmm...I agree with some of your points, the Warriors were not going to win 38+ games without Arenas. 

However, will they win more games with NVE instead of Jamison ?

Nick Van Exel is a nice replacement for Arenas. He will probably put up similar numbers to Arenas last season. The problem is replacing Jamison at SF. Overpaid or not, he was still putting up 22ppg and 7rpg. At the moment I think Dunleavy will probably be starting, which could be good for the future if he turns out. But, Dunleavy won't be putting up numbers like Jamison was, even if he has a break out year... 

It was a good move to get rid of Fortson's contract, but throwing away Welsch too ? 

Basically, I see it as a similar starting team to last seasons Warriors, except NVE instead of Arenas and no Jamison...:sigh:


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> 
> I think it was a pretty lopsided deal in favor of the Mavs but if what they were trying to do was be bad for a year and acquire a good draft pick (ala Cleveland) well I think that mission may be accomplished.


I don't think either team drastically changed in strength. Yes, the Mavericks added a good inside player (but a 'tweener, still leaving them lacking in toughness a bit) but they lost Van Excel. Van Excel was nearly as valuable as Nash in the playoffs last year and possibly more valuable than Finley in the playoffs. The Mavericks lost a very good player in NVE.

NVE vs. Jamison? Pretty even in talent. The Mavericks also took on a bad contract in Fortson and a disappointing prospect in Welsch.

So, unless Fortson turns things around entirely with his attitude and becomes productive in a way that doesn't hurt his team's play (team-oriented production, rather than selfish production), I don't think the Mavericks really improved.

The Warriors didn't improve their roster, either, but did improve their future outlook a bit.


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## Tom

you guys think Fortson had a bad attitude...wait till you get Nick playing on this not so good team(to be nice) at his age. UGGGGHHHH! Get Ready!


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Scinos</b>!
> 
> However, will they win more games with NVE instead of Jamison ?


They probably won't win less. And even if they do win less, the difference will be meaningless. Is winning 20 games instead of 18 a mighty achievement?



> The problem is replacing Jamison at SF. Overpaid or not, he was still putting up 22ppg and 7rpg. At the moment I think Dunleavy will probably be starting, which could be good for the future if he turns out. But, Dunleavy won't be putting up numbers like Jamison was, even if he has a break out year...


Van Excel will likely replace Jamison's production from the point guard spot, something like 10 ppg and 7 apg.

And yes, it gives Dunleavy a chance to play and improve. 



> It was a good move to get rid of Fortson's contract, but throwing away Welsch too ?


Welsch was terrible. Is that the end of his career? No, but it doesn't make him a painful loss. 



> Basically, I see it as a similar starting team to last seasons Warriors, except NVE instead of Arenas and no Jamison...:sigh:


Well, before this trade, they were going to be like last year's team without Arenas. After the trade, they're going to be like last year's team without Jamison.

So did the trade really hurt the Warriors? No. Does it help their financial outlook in future years? Quite a bit.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Tom</b>!
> you guys think Fortson had a bad attitude...wait till you get Nick playing on this not so good team(to be nice) at his age. UGGGGHHHH! Get Ready!


It honestly really doesn't matter. I only note that Van Excel is as good a talent as Jamison to show exactly how little the Warriors lost.

If, however, Van Excel simply sat out the season, and the Warriors win 10 games, who cares? I really think that when you're at the 20 win level, it really doesn't matter whether you actually reach those 20 wins or not...the season is a failure anyway. Might as well get into a better situation for the future.

This coming season, with Arenas gone, was already a failure. Before game one. Why keep the team capped-out and bad, when it can be well under the cap and bad? At least then you have a hope of improving with a major free agent acquisition. A good chance? No. But better than your chances of improving when capped out and bad.


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## Scinos

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Well, before this trade, they were going to be like last year's team without Arenas. After the trade, they're going to be like last year's team without Jamison.
> 
> So did the trade really hurt the Warriors? No. Does it help their financial outlook in future years? Quite a bit.


Yeah, I see your point Mr St. Jean *ahem* Minstrel... j/k

G-State saves money, and prepares for the future. It gives them some cap space for next season, as Foyle, Sura and Johnson will be expiring contracts worth around $15Mill. That's enough to bring them under the cap, and they could probably add a decent FA...maybe a Gary Payton (if he gets a ring) ?

Also, if Van Exel doesn't like it, he could opt out of his deal, and GS would have mega cap room.


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## -33-

Miami Trades:
Sean Marks

GS Trades:
Jason Richardson


while you're in the giving mood....why dont you trade Miami too?


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Scinos</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, I see your point Mr St. Jean *ahem* Minstrel... j/k


Considering I'd have fired St. Jean long, long, long ago, and still would, I'm hardly an apologist for him.


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## Tom

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> Miami Trades:
> Sean Marks
> 
> GS Trades:
> Jason Richardson
> 
> 
> while you're in the giving mood....why dont you trade Miami too?


:laugh: You never know!


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## Tom

Does anyone have an example of Clearing cap space actually working at pulling in the big dogs? I've seen failures but can't think of a success with that strategy...especially from a team that puts a poor product out on the floor and runs every good player it has out of town.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Tom</b>!
> Does anyone have an example of Clearing cap space actually working at pulling in the big dogs? I've seen failures but can't think of a success with that strategy...


Neither can I.

On the other hand, does anyone have an example of a team that was bad and capped out turning into a playoff team without ever clearing away any space? I've seen failures but can't think of a success with that situation...

Someone is going to have to tell me exactly what shining present the Warriors just threw away to try this. People are lamenting as if the Warriors just got rid of Phil Jackson, Scottie Pippen, Michael Jordan and Dennis Rodman in order to get under the cap.


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## INDY

> Also, if Van Exel doesn't like it, he could opt out of his deal, and GS would have mega cap room.


What year can he opt out of his deal?


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## ssmokinjoe

No, the Warriors didn't get rid of Jordan or Pippen, but they did trade away their best player who was actually one of the few players in GS that was willing to stay for the long haul. And bash me if you want to, but Jamison was my favorite Warrior.


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## Scinos

> Originally posted by <b>INDY</b>!
> What year can he opt out of his deal?


I think he has a player option next offseason (Or, it could be 2004/05..I'm not 100% sure).

I don't think he will opt out though, he would be crazy to give up $11Mill, then $12Mill the following season.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>ssmokinjoe</b>!
> No, the Warriors didn't get rid of Jordan or Pippen, but they did trade away their best player who was actually one of the few players in GS that was willing to stay for the long haul.


Because they were willing to overpay him. Personally, I think Arenas would have been willing to stay, if the Warriors hadn't been trapped by the cap.

I don't really believe that Jamison is the only player willing to play for Golden State. No player is willing to join a mess of a team, but if the Warriors put their house in order, the Bay Area is a perfectly nice area and beside a huge media market. I think players would play for the Warriors.



> And bash me if you want to, but Jamison was my favorite Warrior.


I'm not bashing anyone. I simply don't feel that the Warriors made a stupid move. Jamison was a perfectly good player and well worth watching play...he had some brilliant games (like that 50-point duel with Kobe Bryant).


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## PacersFANBrasil

This got to be the worst trade i ever seen.


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## BigGameJames

I'm sorry, but you are off your rocker if you don't think Jamison is a player. As far as I am concerned the west (NBA) now has FIVE contenders.


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## Jason Caffeine

wow nice job saint, i have even more reason to hate you now.


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## Petey

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> Miami Trades:
> Sean Marks
> 
> GS Trades:
> Jason Richardson
> 
> 
> while you're in the giving mood....why dont you trade Miami too?


Miami really needs Richardson with Wade, Butler and Jones?

-Petey


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## Hero

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> If, however, Van Excel simply sat out the season, and the Warriors win 10 games, who cares?


That hurts…

Who cares!? Do you know what you’re saying!? We, as fans, take out our wallets and PAY our hard-earned money to watch this team play, hoping to see them win! We have been waiting for *9* years for last season where they finally reached respectability, and now we are going to just turn around the next season and win 10 games and say “Who cares?”

For the future? Uh-uh, hell no. This **** ain’t happening. The future is not tomorrow, next season, or five seasons… It’s NOW……. I want to see the Warriors win no matter WHAT you say. We waited long enough, we’re not going to wait for another 9 years.

There’s not a SINGLE player that I personally like from the Mavs. Van Exel is a freakin’ punk that has a big attitude problem, he won’t play with full-heart, I hope the Warriors turn around and trade him tomorrow for Wang Zhizhi or somebody. Avery Johnson would’ve been a nice addition, but come on… he’s 38 years old!!!! Get out, please. Popeye Jones is… No offense to you Popeye fans, but I can compare his looks to Shrek, how we possibly enjoy watching him play good ball? And Eschmeyer who!?

Jamison… _sniff_ Jamison… I’ll miss you man….


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Hero</b>!
> 
> 
> That hurts…
> 
> Who cares!? Do you know what you’re saying!? We, as fans, take out our wallets and PAY our hard-earned money to watch this team play, hoping to see them win! We have been waiting for *9* years for last season where they finally reached respectability, and now we are going to just turn around the next season and win 10 games and say “Who cares?”


But 20 wins *would* be respectable and send you home happy?

My *point* is that the Warriors were going to be terrible, whether this trade happened or not.



> I want to see the Warriors win no matter WHAT you say.


And what I am saying is that the Warriors *weren't* going to win. This trade didn't change them from winners to losers. Blame that on all the crappy deals Twardzik and St. Jean have made up to this point. But this deal didn't do anything to hurt the present.

Nick Van Excel was incredible in the playoffs and the Warriors are likely to be equally good, this year, with Van Excel instead of Jamison. But if they're not, we're talking about a 20 win season becoming a 15 win season or something. Failure *either* way.

Again...why do Warriors fans act like this killed the season? With Arenas gone for *nothing*, this team was back to a basement team. I don't like that, but it's reality. Blaming this deal for making the Warriors a bad team is silly. The Warriors were a bad team before the deal and are a bad team after the deal.

You want the Warriors to improve? Lobby Chris Cohen to fire St. Jean and replace him with someone competent.

If I owned the Warriors, I'd go down to St. Jean's office and say, "Thanks for the only sane move you've *ever* made in your years here. Now clean out your office...I want a competent GM to handle the next rebuilding so that it actually *works*."


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>BigGameJames</b>!
> I'm sorry, but you are off your rocker if you don't think Jamison is a player.


And *you're* off your rocker if you don't think Nick Van Excel is a player. He had a bunch of 20- and 30-point games in the playoffs last year and was at least as valuable as Nash in the playoffs and more valuable than Finley in the playoffs.

So they picked up a "player" and lost at least an equally good "player." Wow...huge improvement.



> As far as I am concerned the west (NBA) now has FIVE contenders.


No, it only has four contenders...Lakers, Kings, Spurs and Mavericks. And the Mavericks were one of the four contenders before this deal.

The Timberwolves improved but they aren't on that level.


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## Hero

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> But 20 wins *would* be respectable and send you home happy?
> 
> My *point* is that the Warriors were going to be terrible, whether this trade happened or not.
> 
> 
> 
> And what I am saying is that the Warriors *weren't* going to win. This trade didn't change them from winners to losers. Blame that on all the crappy deals Twardzik and St. Jean have made up to this point. But this deal didn't do anything to hurt the present.
> 
> Nick Van Excel was incredible in the playoffs and the Warriors are likely to be equally good, this year, with Van Excel instead of Jamison.
> 
> Again...why do Warriors fans act like this killed the season? With Arenas gone for *nothing*, this team was back to a basement team. I don't like that, but it's reality. Blaming this deal for making the Warriors a bad team is silly. The Warriors were a bad team before the deal and are a bad team after the deal.
> 
> You want the Warriors to improve? Lobby Chris Cohen to fire St. Jean and replace him with someone competent.
> 
> If I owned the Warriors, I'd go down to St. Jean's office and say, "Thanks for the only sane move you've *ever* made in your years here. Now clean out your office...I want a competent GM to handle the next rebuilding so that it actually *works*."


Sorry Minstrel, I don’t agree with you one bit. As profesionals, entertainers and competitors, you have to TRY and WIN every game for your fans who paid to watch you... And trading away your leading scorer won’t help the cause.

Actually, I never thought for a split second that the season will bomb until this trade happened (St. Jean, thank you). Even with Arenas gone, I have high hopes for Speedy. And Muss man, come on man, he WON’T let the Warriors go down like this, uh-uh. But now I’m afraid he has to… (Once again St. Jean, thank you)

Warriors fans, remember that site we used to help make Arenas stay? Why don’t we just change some of the lettering and make it “Fire St. Jean!” instead?


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## Scinos

> Originally posted by <b>Hero</b>!
> Actually, I never thought for a split second that the season will bomb until this trade happened (St. Jean, thank you). Even with Arenas gone, I have high hopes for Speedy. And Muss man, come on man, he WON’T let the Warriors go down like this, uh-uh. But now I’m afraid he has to… (Once again St. Jean, thank you)


I agree...I thought losing Arenas would hurt, and maybe I was dreaming, but...I still thought G-State could be a pesky 30-35 win team that could beat just about any team if they were hot...

I think the deal has positives for the future...like getting Dunleavy a bigger role in the team, and probably opening up more minutes for Pietrus (sp?). But, at some point you just want to have a competitive team...GS has been 'rebuilding' for a long time, and now they are restarting the process.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Hero</b>!
> 
> 
> Sorry Minstrel, I don’t agree with you one bit. As profesionals, entertainers and competitors, you have to TRY and WIN every game for your fans who paid to watch you... And trading away your leading scorer won’t help the cause.


Do you try to win this season even if it means dooming the team to mediocrity or worse for another four years? That attitude is the one New York fans have, and it created the mess the Knicks are in. They won't be able to improve for years, because they have all their cap room tied up in bad contracts for years. Sure, Jamison was good...so is Alan Houston. Both are overpaid and removed flexibility.

How are the Warriors going to improve with little talent and no cap room? Now they have little talent but cap room coming.



> Even with Arenas gone, I have high hopes for Speedy. And Muss man, come on man, he WON’T let the Warriors go down like this, uh-uh.


What could he have done with little talent? The team got Nick Van Excel in return, and he's as talented as Jamison, just plays a different position.

I'm all for trying to win now. Problem is, thanks to terrible deals for years, the Warriors were toast when Arenas left. So, either you can try to win two extra games in an overall terrible season, or win two less games and have a chance to improve the next year.


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## Keith Closs

has to be frsutrating to be a warrior fan.. you figured thsi time last year having a nucleus of arenas and jamison with murphy richardson and dunleavy all having the potnetial to be real good that youre rebuilding would be done and youd have a young team to contend in a few years.. now a year later and youre back to sqaure one rebuild all over again..


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## Hero

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you try to win this season even if it means dooming the team to mediocrity or worse for another four years? That attitude is the one New York fans have, and it created the mess the Knicks are in. They won't be able to improve for years, because they have all their cap room tied up in bad contracts for years. Sure, Jamison was good...so is Alan Houston. Both are overpaid and removed flexibility.
> 
> How are the Warriors going to improve with little talent and no cap room? Now they have little talent but cap room coming.


Guess what man. We’ve sucked for 9 years, and it’s now August 16, 2003, 1:14 AM, and we’re still sucking. You think any of us can take ANOTHER 9 years, hell no. We ain’t going to rebuild again.



> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> What could he have done with little talent? The team got Nick Van Excel in return, and he's as talented as Jamison, just plays a different position.
> 
> I'm all for trying to win now. Problem is, thanks to terrible deals for years, the Warriors were toast when Arenas left. So, either you can try to win two extra games in an overall terrible season, or win two less games and have a chance to improve the next year.


Why do you keep comparing Van Exel with Jamison? Van Exel is not in ‘Twan’s league, not matter what you say to try and convince me that he is. He’s not. Fact, stop trying to sugarcoat it for us heart-brokens. I don’t think Van Exel will help the Warriors much, since he’s basically a stand-still-pass-me-the-ball-than-I-shoot guy, he CAN sometimes penetrate I know, but even J-Rich can do it better than him. I rather see Jiri Welsch play point for GS than Van Exel. Prove me wrong, Nick the Quick.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Hero</b>!
> 
> 
> Guess what man. We’ve sucked for 9 years, and it’s now August 16, 2003, 1:14 AM, and we’re still sucking. You think any of us can take ANOTHER 9 years, hell no. We ain’t going to rebuild again.


You act like it was a choice. As soon as Arenas bolted, the team was squarely back in rebuild mode.



> Why do you keep comparing Van Exel with Jamison? Van Exel is not in ‘Twan’s league, not matter what you say to try and convince me that he is. He’s not. Fact


You can overrate Warriors and underrate everyone else all you like. Van Excel has put up very similar numbers in similar situations. He was devastating in last year's playoffs. Fact.

Antawn Jamison is an undersized power forward and too slow to be a good small forward. He's a good player, but not a star. Fact.



> stop trying to sugarcoat it for us heart-brokens. I don’t think Van Exel will help the Warriors much, since he’s basically a stand-still-pass-me-the-ball-than-I-shoot guy, he CAN sometimes penetrate I know, but even J-Rich can do it better than him.


J-Rich can't do *anything* better than Van Excel except jump. Prove me wrong, J-Rich...so far you've been a slam dunk champion bust.

And I don't think you've watched NVE play much if you think he's a stand-still shooter. His best strength is slashing into the lane and tossing up tear-drop floaters. He did that over and over in last year's playoffs. He's one of the best penetrating scorers at his position.

Here's the reality: The Warriors have Murphy for the power forward position, Dunleavy Jr. for the small forward position, a solid center rotation in Dampier and Foyle, Richardson for shooting guard and one of the better point guard rotations in the league in Van Excel and Speedy Claxton.

That won't win a ton of games in the West, but it's a decent foundation. On top of that, the Warriors will soon, because of this trade, have a ton of salary cap room. If they can add even one big name free agent, and just two of three prospects (Dunleavy Jr., Troy Murphy, Jason Richardson) become good, the Warriors are a playoff team.

And that's without even considering Michael Pietrus.

The Warriors have a hope to be good in the future. I'd love to see that. I'll happily sacrifice a few games this year, which was going to be a bad year anyway, for that chance to be good.


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## ssmokinjoe

I know that eventually i'll have to root for Van Exel since he's now a Warrior, but how fun is it gonna be watching a one man show who can't see the other four guys on the court who are wearing the same uniform? And why didn't we at least get Nash, who is their starting point guard, for our starting SF who is also the best guy on our team? I know, i know... salary yada yada yada. And i really dont wanna hear any more justifications of this trade, bc i'm sure there were better moves that could've been made.


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## Scinos

> Originally posted by <b>ssmokinjoe</b>!
> I know that eventually i'll have to root for Van Exel since he's now a Warrior, but how fun is it gonna be watching a one man show who can't see the other four guys on the court who are wearing the same uniform?


What ? Van Exel can dish the ball when it is needed, it's just his role in Dallas was as a pure scorer off the bench. You're talking about the guy who once dished 23 assists in one game, and who averages 7.2 assists per game for his career. 

G-State fans are seriously underrating 'Nick the Quick'...He is an incredible scorer when he is on, and he is one of the clutchest players in the league.



> And why didn't we at least get Nash, who is their starting point guard, for our starting SF who is also the best guy on our team? I know, i know... salary yada yada yada. And i really dont wanna hear any more justifications of this trade, bc i'm sure there were better moves that could've been made.


Yes, it is about the salary 'yada yada yada'. If you want to know why G-State did this, just look at Tawn's salary...GS salaries 

Seriously, Twan is a good player...but, do you want to be paying him $15Mill and $16Mill in his last two years...And did you see how over paid Fortson is...:nonono:

Once you see their contacts, you see why G-State did this trade.


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## Hero

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> You act like it was a choice. As soon as Arenas bolted, the team was squarely back in rebuild mode.
> 
> 
> 
> You can overrate Warriors and underrate everyone else all you like. Van Excel has put up very similar numbers in similar situations. He was devastating in last year's playoffs. Fact.
> 
> Antawn Jamison is an undersized power forward and too slow to be a good small forward. He's a good player, but not a star. Fact.
> 
> 
> 
> J-Rich can't do *anything* better than Van Excel except jump. Prove me wrong, J-Rich...so far you've been a slam dunk champion bust.
> 
> And I don't think you've watched NVE play much if you think he's a stand-still shooter. His best strength is slashing into the lane and tossing up tear-drop floaters. He did that over and over in last year's playoffs. He's one of the best penetrating scorers at his position.
> 
> Here's the reality: The Warriors have Murphy for the power forward position, Dunleavy Jr. for the small forward position, a solid center rotation in Dampier and Foyle, Richardson for shooting guard and one of the better point guard rotations in the league in Van Excel and Speedy Claxton.
> 
> That won't win a ton of games in the West, but it's a decent foundation. On top of that, the Warriors will soon, because of this trade, have a ton of salary cap room. If they can add even one big name free agent, and just two of three prospects (Dunleavy Jr., Troy Murphy, Jason Richardson) become good, the Warriors are a playoff team.
> 
> And that's without even considering Michael Pietrus.
> 
> The Warriors have a hope to be good in the future. I'd love to see that. I'll happily sacrifice a few games this year, which was going to be a bad year anyway, for that chance to be good.


Yes it was a choice. Speedy could take his spot, and we still have Twan and J-Rich, who can score in dozens.

Why do you enjoy rebuilding so much? Isn’t 9 years enough rebuilding for you? The Warriors organization owe it to the fans and owe it to the Bay Area to finally just put up a team that’s able to win, and win.

These debates are getting very repetive, and I think my brain cells are frying thinking up these responses. So like Jim Rome says, “I am out!”


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## Hero

> Originally posted by <b>Scinos</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it is about the salary 'yada yada yada'. If you want to know why G-State did this, just look at Tawn's salary...GS salaries
> 
> Seriously, Twan is a good player...but, do you want to be paying him $15Mill and $16Mill in his last two years...And did you see how over paid Fortson is...:nonono:
> 
> Once you see their contacts, you see why G-State did this trade.



It’s not like Van Exel and Avery Johnson are cheapies…


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## Scinos

> Originally posted by <b>Hero</b>!
> It’s not like Van Exel and Avery Johnson are cheapies…


Van Exel is on a reasonable deal for his ability. He is only under contract for another 3 seasons max (if he decides not to opt out of his deal). Antawn would of been signed for much longer, and it would be alot harder to trade him when he was earning the huge $15Mill per year...

Avery Johnson is an expiring contract, he won't count towards anything after the season. Unlike Fortson's contract which continues on till 2006/07.


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## ssmokinjoe

On an unrelated note...

So, who looks good in the next draft?? What kind of free agents will be available next summer??


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## Scinos

> Originally posted by <b>ssmokinjoe</b>!
> On an unrelated note...
> 
> So, who looks good in the next draft?? What kind of free agents will be available next summer??


I don't really know about the draft...lots will change as the draft draws nearer, as international prospects are known and the college season is over. Most people seem to think the top picks will be Okafor, Podkolzine and Ha Seung jin (sp?).

As for FA's, well...there are two superstars, Kobe and KG. Then there's Rasheed Wallace, AI (can opt out of his deal, I think), Bender, Steve Nash (can opt out), Person, Hudson (can opt out), Rob Horry, Keon Clark, Gary Payton (can opt out), Karl Malone (can opt out), Dale Davis, McInnis, Divac ?, Brent Barry.

I'm not sure on the FA's, some of them could be wrong...


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## ssmokinjoe

Hey, you know who has a chance to be the steal of this trade?? ... Jiri Welsch!!! 

We pretty much know the extent of the talents of Jamison and Van Exel already. Forston and Jones are pretty much one-dimensional big men who have already shown us their best in this league. Avery and Mills have their best years behind them as well and I'm gonna take a chance and say that Eschmeyer is a lifelong role-player/bench warmer at best. But Welsch is still a bundle of potential that may very well blossom in the right environment. His best playing days are clearly ahead of him, and who knows what this guy can become. I'm surprised he was thrown into that deal.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Hero</b>!
> 
> Why do you enjoy rebuilding so much? Isn’t 9 years enough rebuilding for you?


I don't enjoy rebuilding. But because of terrible decisions in the past and the bad luck of losing Arenas, the Warriors were once again forced to rebuild.

It's a shame, but just reality. I know you hate it, but the team was going to lose with Jamison. It will now lose without Jamison. But at least they have a chance to end the decade of crappiness.



> The Warriors organization owe it to the fans and owe it to the Bay Area to finally just put up a team that’s able to win, and win.


Sure they do. They've just been lousy at doing that. Hopefully, though, this time they'll get it right.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>ssmokinjoe</b>!
> On an unrelated note...
> 
> So, who looks good in the next draft?? What kind of free agents will be available next summer??


AI would be an exciting guy to get.

Payton might be a possibility since he's from Oakland. Maybe he'd like to retire with the hometown team.

Unless the Timberwolves collapse, KG will probably stay in Minnesota, unfortunately, since they added some good talent. But here's hoping it doesn't work and he's looking for another team... 

As far as the draft goes, the "Siberian Bear" Pavel Podkolzine will be in the draft. He shot up draft boards this previous draft before removing himself from the draft, so he could get a better position next year. He's something like 7'4'', 290 lbs and extremely well-proportioned, like an athlete. He could be a heck of a center in the NBA.


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## 8

GREAT JOB !!!!!! mister saint jean, for solidify dallas' position

as one of top 5 teams in the entire league !!!!!!!!


Now we have 5 super teams from the western conference

totally above the rest of the league now !!!!!

I definately think there should be an investigation about it

since the top 5 teams keep getting better and deeper 

while the worst teams, you know  

thats just sad.


Dallas gave up an old guy, their leading scorer "OFF THE BENCH"

for a guy whos a franchise player for his team, a guy with

all-star (even superstar) caliber, nick van exel wont even be

in the league for that long since hes getting older.


Dallas definately commits highway robbery here and is the

BIG winner out of this trade, gs is the BIG loser in the trade,

dallas got better hand on the trade with more talents plus

they got "YOUNGER" talents, a much younger guy in tawn

and get rid of older guys in nve. thats just sad.


Now dallas definately deep enough and talented enough

to contend with another top 4 teams in the league

lakers-spurs-kings-t wolves.

cant wait till the season begin 

:laugh:


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## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Considering I'd have fired St. Jean long, long, long ago, and still would, I'm hardly an apologist for him.


Why a sadsack loser of a coach with no GMing experience was given the reigns and a longterm deal in the first place is my question...

STOMP


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## ssmokinjoe

The guys over at the Dallas board are rejoicing :sour:


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## Keith Closs

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you try to win this season even if it means dooming the team to mediocrity or worse for another four years? That attitude is the one New York fans have, and it created the mess the Knicks are in. They won't be able to improve for years, because they have all their cap room tied up in bad contracts for years. Sure, Jamison was good...so is Alan Houston. Both are overpaid and removed flexibility.


as a knick fan i have to say youre wrong about that.. every diehard knick fan wants the team to dump every big contract they can and just start from scratch and rebuild.. a big knick fan doesnt care if we win 40 games and make the plyaoffs or win 30 games theyd rather win 10 and get the first pick..

The percepetion that the knick fans wont stand for rebuilding is b.s. and was made up by knicks management because all they care about is selling out they garden so every year theyd rather be stuck in mediocrity or just make the playoffs then try to rebuild and maybe eventually win a title..


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Keith Closs</b>!
> 
> 
> as a knick fan i have to say youre wrong about that.. every diehard knick fan wants the team to dump every big contract they can and just start from scratch and rebuild.. a big knick fan doesnt care if we win 40 games and make the plyaoffs or win 30 games theyd rather win 10 and get the first pick..
> 
> The percepetion that the knick fans wont stand for rebuilding is b.s. and was made up by knicks management because all they care about is selling out they garden so every year theyd rather be stuck in mediocrity or just make the playoffs then try to rebuild and maybe eventually win a title..


Okay. I stand corrected...not living in New York, I was only going by the perception provided by the media.

In that case, this attitude in *Scott Layden* (not wanting to gain flexibility, try to win three more games this year even if it hurts the team for five more years) has hamstrung the Knicks.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>ssmokinjoe</b>!
> The guys over at the Dallas board are rejoicing :sour:


As well they should. A jump-shooting front-court player lacking in defensive toughness is exactly what they needed.

They sure didn't have any of those before this deal was made...


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## ratedPG

I know Van Exel has a option in 3 years, and Avery is done this year.. probably even retire. 
But, I'm not too hot on Evan and Popeye (except for Pop's rebounding), when do their contracts end, or when is there a option, either team or player?


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## ssmokinjoe

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> As well they should. A jump-shooting front-court player lacking in defensive toughness is exactly what they needed.
> 
> They sure didn't have any of those before this deal was made...


Good thing u don't have anything negative to say about the now ex-Warrior.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>ssmokinjoe</b>!
> 
> 
> Good thing u don't have anything negative to say about the now ex-Warrior.


I'm willing to talk about the positives and negatives of any player, Warrior or ex-Warrior.

Jamison wasn't a superstar. He was a good player with some positives and some negatives. His positives are things Dallas already had and didn't need and his negatives are exactly what Dallas does need.

Only his rebounding is something they didn't have, so he'll help them there.


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## ssmokinjoe

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> ... his negatives are exactly what Dallas does need.


interesting word play


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## Minstrel

*chuckle* That phrasing may have been a bit ambiguous.


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## CMC

> Originally posted by <b>Tom</b>!
> Does anyone have an example of Clearing cap space actually working at pulling in the big dogs? I've seen failures but can't think of a success with that strategy...especially from a team that puts a poor product out on the floor and runs every good player it has out of town.


Orlando, the lakers with shaq(and clearing space for kobe by dropping eddie jones and van exel), and Sacramento off the top of my head.

I think this trade was good for the future, decent for the present personally. Warriors will probably win the same amount of games as last year, and they'll have more cap space sooner than they would've with a maxed out Jamison, an overpaid Fortson and Dampier's 8.5 million a year still on the books.

If they didn't make this move, no way do they have the money to resign JRich and Murphy when their contracts expire, then sign Dunleavy the following year.

Just wish the deal could've been made a week earlier so Arenas could've been re-signed too.


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## ssmokinjoe

OK, im not playing dumb here i just wanna make sure...

So if the Jamison/Van Exel deal was made before Arenas made his final decision with the Wizards, would the Warriors have had enough money to keep him? I'm not a salary cap pro like some others out there. Would there have been a chance to keep him in GS??


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>ssmokinjoe</b>!
> OK, im not playing dumb here i just wanna make sure...
> 
> So if the Jamison/Van Exel deal was made before Arenas made his final decision with the Wizards, would the Warriors have had enough money to keep him? I'm not a salary cap pro like some others out there. Would there have been a chance to keep him in GS??


No...this will start saving them money next off-season at the earliest. Had they done a deal like this *last* off-season, then they may have been under the cap enough to keep Arenas.


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## jokeaward

It's sad, but I think I agree it had to be done. A 20-30 win capped out team is NOT the way to go, but St. Jean had it. Gotta rebuild with Murphy, Richarson, and Dunleavy if he grows better. At least.

Will they go like early 90's Denver? Ultimate run and gun lottery team to a better D team? I know they didn't dominate, but advanced in playoffs at least.

If you want another combo guard, I'm sure you can draft one. A good one.


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## Ballin101

Like a lot of you, I think the Warriors played this thing pretty smart. They weren't going to win with that lineup anyways, so why not shake things up a little for help in the future? Dampier and Van Exel both have opt out options after next season, Sura's contract expires, and Foyle's does too. The Warriors will resign Foyle, but they are going to let the other guys go. Also gone will be the contracts of Avery Johnson and Popeye Jones. Do you guys have any idea how much money that is? They would be able to sign two MAX players by being over $20 million under the cap. Not to mention that with the season they'll have next season, they'll get a pretty high draft pick as well. This moves allows the Warriors to let their young core (Murphy, Dunleavy, Richardson) develop and see which one of those three they want to resign when the time comes. The Warriors will own the bird rights to all three of those players so they can sign free agents next year and still be able to sign those three when the time comes. Now, if NVE and Damp were smart, they wouldn't opt out of their contracts. But I'm willing to bet that at least one of those guys (probably NVE) will opt out due to the horrible season the Warriors will undoubtedly have and give the Warriors enough cap space to go after a major free agent (KG, Kobe, etc.). I know all of that might be kind of confusing, but basically what I'm trying to say is that from my perspective the outlook for Warriors is a lot better today (or will be Monday) than it was a few days ago.


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## whiterhino

*Headline*

The Headlines in the Newspapers should say "WARRIORS TANK SEASON" that was one of the worst trades I've ever seen a team make! They are going to be HORRIBLE now!!!:sigh:


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## D5

*Re: Headline*



> Originally posted by <b>whiterhino</b>!
> The Headlines in the Newspapers should say "WARRIORS TANK SEASON" that was one of the worst trades I've ever seen a team make! They are going to be HORRIBLE now!!!:sigh:


I'm positive you didn't even read the replies. Do you know why the Warriors did this? Salary. They got rid of three overpaid players and one nobody for Nick the Trick(who will most likely opt out next year), Avery Johnson(who's contract ends next year), Evan Eschmeyer(who will probably ride the bench) and Popeye Jones(who can be a decent rebounder if he's given PT).


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## Genjuro

Why Van Exl would opt out of his contract? Where is he going to get 24 millions in just two years?


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## Match_Germany

yeap!


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## D5

> Originally posted by <b>Genjuro</b>!
> Why Van Exl would opt out of his contract? Where is he going to get 24 millions in just two years?


Van Exel HATES being on a losing team. He's going to opt out.


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## takis

*not that bad*

this has the potential to be either very good or very bad. i think it will be good.. heres why.

1. cap space.. having overpaid bench players like fortson and mills on your team handcuffs the managements ability to get good players to the team, by trade or signing.

2. van exel.. though van exel isnt a superstar in the league, hes a premium player. he fills many needs by playing point guard, adding scoring, and (most importantly) gives the warriors a legitimate outside scoring threat, something they havent had since... mullin?

3. mike dunleavy jr.. i dont think mike will make anyone of us forget antwan his first year as a starter. but if his summer league performance was any indication of what he CAN do.. he could make this deal a steal for the warriors. antawn could not create his own shot, and was a below average outside shooter. dunleavy can shoot from the outside, at least that is the hope. where we will miss jamison is he was great around the basket on follows.

4. j-rich and murphy.. this deal at least gives the warriors a shot at resigning these two good players.

5. gil arenas.. some ppl are saying we should have done this deal sooner in hopes that we could have signed arenas to 11+ mil/year. i dont think that would have been a good idea. he may be worth it in a couple years, but i dont think it would have been a good idea for the warriors to invest so much money into a player who had one very good year.


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## MightyReds2020

6. High lotto pick(s)...

I don't understand the attitude of some of the Warriors fans, that 'we sucked for 9 years, we don't want to rebuild again'. It is this kind of attitude that got Warriors into the position they are in today. I've said this before and I'd say it again: The fact is when Arenas bolted, Warriors have nowhere to go but totally rebuild. I wondered how Warriors can get rid of those abysmal contracts and they've just done that, much to my delight. The only one that gets paid a lot in the roster right now is NVE, I won't be suprised if he opts out of his contract next year, although that's not a smart idea. So the Warriors should trade him now for another expiring contracts or two. With cap flexibility 2 years down the road, they should be able to bring in some exciting young talents.

We all want the playoff appearance. If this trade didn't go down, then the Warriors is looking for a 35-win team next 4, 5 years - not good enough to get into playoffs and not bad enough to get some high draft picks. That's the worst position a team can be in.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>MightyReds2020</b>!
> 
> The only one that gets paid a lot in the roster right now is NVE, I won't be suprised if he opts out of his contract next year


And, if NVE does want to opt out, the Warriors should get a great season from him, as he'll want to audition for a big contract from someone else, prove he's worth one.


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## max6216

this was a terrible trade.all the warriors are getting is a unhappy van exle.sure the team cleared some cap space for the future.the problem is some of that money might have to be used on players who's contracts should be coming up at that time.IMO i feel the warriors are gonna be one of the worst teams next year and maybe the year after.not a way to attract top free agents.also i really don't see many high profile players wanting to play for this franchise they did just screw over speedy claxton. and the front office may be one of the worst in the NBA.


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## ssmokinjoe

I think that right now a lot is resting on the development of Dunleavy Jr. If he dramatically steps up his game with the increased playing time then the absence of Jamison wont hurt as much. If he lives up to his hype coming out of college as a heady ball player with a dead-eye from long range, then that would be all that you want from your small forward. The jury is still out on his defense of course, but that's another story. 

If you look at the situation with an open enough mind, then the Warriors are not much different than they were last season. Van Exel can definitely fill the void at point left by Arenas and Claxton is your new Boykins wannabe. Murphy is a hard worker always intent on improving and i believe that he will continue to do so. J-rich still has his flaws, but he can and will improve and he keeps the Warriors in the highlight reels. I know that highlights don't mean much to alot of u guys out there, but it does add to the exposure and fan-base of the overall team which does has its importance in the big picture.

My point is this... even if they don't put alot of X's in the win column this year, the league still views the Warriors as an up and coming team who can be exciting to watch. A team with youth and potential can be a big lure to a quality free agent when the handcuffs come off the Warriors salary cap situation. Most veteran free agents will of course prefer to land on a team that would be championship contenders. But we could still end up with a high-quality player that could help lift us from the deep crap and least put us in that 8th seed and hopefully everything begins to get rosey from there. 

Wishful thinking? Yeah, but that comes with the territory of being a die-hard Warriors fan just as much as the complaining does.


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## FanOfAll8472

NVE is a pretty good player. he came off the bench in Dal cos Nash started, and I'm pretty sure that we can agree that Nash is a better player. I think the Warriors did pretty good in this trade. They free up room for Pietrus to play, and Dunleavy can start now too. 'Tawn was overpaid and struggled on D (Too slow vs 3, too small vs 4) and Speedy could play 1, but keep in mind, that he has a history of getting injured. Eschemeyer...err no comment, and Popeye is only good for rebounding, but Welsch struggled so badly that if there was a minors, he probably would've gotten sent back. The Warriors made this move for the future, as I dont think they would've done much better without Arenas and with Jamison than with both. NVE can help relieve the lost points of Jamison and Arenas, and JRich needs to work on his handles and shot to improve, but I think he and Murph and Dunleavy can also help get those points back.

Taking a Dallas perspective, they didnt really get an inside presence, but they did add another scorer (do they really need another one?). However, they got a young talent (Though i dont like him) in Welsch, a possible inside/rebounding presence in Fortson (though i dont like him either), and added a scorer to fill those points that NVE scored. They got rid of useless Evan and Pop, but got in return Welsch and Fortson. A bit more useful, but still not that big of an improvement. Jamison is unknown in playoffs and not very good on D, so did the Mavs really improve much?

Ultimately, I feel as if this trade will be beneficial for the Warriors in the long run (as I think Dunleavy will turn out big and Pietrus will be a very solid D man off the bench...Jrich will be OK) as it gives time for young players and clears space. The pg and C situation? Draft. Can Speedy be a full-time starter after NVE leaves (which im pretty sure he will) is unknown. At 5, I think DAmpier will walk and Foyle will stay to be a backup, but they'll get another guy in there. This move clears lots of space for the future. For Dallas, i think it helps them immediately, but not in the long run, as the lack of D and cap space will bite them.

Sorry if i didnt make my points clear (or unorgranized)...im in a rush and been in a long time since ive posted in a forum.


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## D5

> Originally posted by <b>FanOfAll8472</b>!
> The pg and C situation? Draft.


One word: Okafor.


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## Tom

you guys got rid of fortson...be happy. I mean he was ruining the team right?


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## D5

> Originally posted by <b>Tom</b>!
> you guys got rid of fortson...be happy. I mean he was ruining the team right?


I am VERY happy getting rid of him. He's a toxic teammate with a horrible attitude.


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