# Hate hate hate



## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

First of all, let me preface this by saying that when the Raptors passed on Gerald Green, twice, I was about ready to shoot myself. Not because I don't like Villy or Graham, just because I would have liked him better in both occasions. I'm still not disappointed with the draft, and I don't think Babcock messed it up. The one thing that does get me a little, is how he still gets no respect from a lot of people, in terms of how he played the draft. No, it was all luck.

Of course, he can do no right... pure luck. Forget that it's an incredibly deep draft, and that players like Ukic and Graham, who were both projected to go higher than they did, were bound to slip. Speaking of slipping, Gilchrist, a player who was at once projected in the lottery, wasn't even drafted. Taft went 42, Turiaf 37, Mendez and Morris undrafted. Forget that there was a very large possibility of Villy being gone by 16, since the draft was so guard-forward heavy, especially around our pick at 16, and not that big on big men. Don't even bother looking at the players picked directly after Villy, because since he wasn't on Doug Smith's radar, he clearly was a reach.

In the end, really, Rob Babcock can do no right. That's really how I'm sensing it is with a lot of you. He just drafted three solid players, possibly four, in a deep draft that he played well (for a guy who always ****s **** up, right), no matter what Stephen A. says. Toronto fans in general... are just inrcredibly pessimistic IMO, and it's bleeding through right now. Honestly, you guys who are saying he got lucky and that's that... please.... stop watching basketball. If he made a bad move, give him hell. But recognize when he does something good for the team.

Got lucky? Give me a break. Every god damn team in the draft got lucky, by that logic.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

I love the picks.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

yea, too many arm-chair GMs in the city looking way too deep into the whole internet mock drafts cannot look past the fact that we came away with three guys who will be on next seasons roster and have a guy who we can store away and develop in Europe like the Spurs do every year who could turn into a quality player for the team one day...


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## Unknownone (May 14, 2005)

I don't know if anyone else caught it, but there was a conference call w/ UConn coach Jim Calhoun earlier on Wednesday where he disclosed that 2 of the 3 teams that selected b/w 8 to 10 had indicated that they would take Villaneuva if he was around... So if Villaneuva was the big that the Raptors had targeted, he sure would've been gone by 16... As a Big East alum, I'll ride for Villaneuva although I ain't necessarily a Huskies fan...

Here's the breakdown, most people get caught up in the herd mentality - who's hot and who's not... And you have to wonder about the credibility of NBA beat writers -> they're there to sell newspapers, if they were such great judges of talent/evaluators/etc., they'd be part of the staff on an NBA team, methinks... Now if radio and television outlets, full of pompous hot air bags like Stephen A., continue to contaminate the airwaves, there's little wonder that Joe Average out in the public will treat the selection of Villaneuva derisively...

Here's how I see it after a day of reflection -

Villaneuva, big, mobile, has good tools - he may not be the 2nd coming of anyone, but if he plays up to his potential and you know that Sam Mitchell is the sort of old school coach that Calhoun is, then some folks may find their bottles of haterade empty whilst lookin' for another player to harp on...

Graham - he's tough, he's bruising, he can shoot the J, and will drive (when was the last time you heard all 4 about VC? - save for fallin' in love w/ his J); he also plays defense the way Eddie Sutton stresses: man-to-man, bodied up...

Rokic - he has the advantage of bein' 6' 5" in that he'll be better able to see defensive schemes; from what I've seen on highlight reels, he can drive, can/will be creative, and can stick the J more often than not...

Slokur - Bill Laimbeer was a jump shootin' center for D's Bad Boys... Had a nasty disposition and rebounded - if Slokur can come anywhere close to that, it'll be all good...


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

This pick reminds me a lot of the Damon pick... also made at 7...


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

what astounds more is how people use the question "but the raptors have chris bosh already" point to use their distaste for the raptor picks. it's as if they think bosh plays 48 minutes a game on this team, they never heard the concept of depth/bench, or don't realize alot of teams often go with a 3 guard/ 2 forward rotation


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

trick said:


> what astounds more is how people use the question "but the raptors have chris bosh already" point to use their distaste for the raptor picks. it's as if they think bosh plays 48 minutes a game on this team, they never heard the concept of depth/bench, or don't realize alot of teams often go with a 3 guard/ 2 forward rotation


 And it's the same people who were bashing the Araujo pick because it was made on need, rather than best player available... which many thought was Iggy, who played the same position as our then-star player in Vince Carter.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> And it's the same people who were bashing the Araujo pick because it was made on need, rather than best player available... which many thought was Iggy, who played the same position as our then-star player in Vince Carter.


and rose, and peterson, and murray...


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

i hate this thread. and you should hate the state of the raptors. it isnt a good day for yall


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

edit


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

let's take it into a step further...

there are the haters who also think villanueva would still be there at 16th, and yet they forget that frye, diogu, bynum, vazquez, korolev and may all went in consecutive order right after charlie...

...and arguably bynum, charlie (errr, i mean VILLA), has more upside than those guys.


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## Unknownone (May 14, 2005)

nbanoitall said:


> i hate this thread. and you should hate the state of the raptors. it isnt a good day for yall


Before the Nuggets got Karl, it wasn't goin' well at all though - and w/ Karl, he usually wears out his welcome in about 3 years so enjoy it while you can...


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

nbanoitall said:


> i hate this thread. and you should hate the state of the raptors. it isnt a good day for yall


sigh...


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

Speaking for myself, I have never claimed he got lucky. His ordering of PF/C, SF/SG, PG was exactly right, and very astute. He just picked the wrong guys. Frye and Diogu are better than Villaneuva and would be better fits on this team, Granger is better than Graham. Ukic may turn out to be a steal, or he may be virtually impossible to buy out.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Last year with a glut of swingmen and holes at 1 and 5, he took the best 5, passing on the BPA a swing in Iguodala.

Rob takes a ****kicking.

This year he takes his BBPA that happens to be the SAME position as their best young player, avoiding the holes at 1 and 5 and defensive 3 (2 to be filled later).

Rob takes a ****kicking.


Bernie B was going to take CV. Hey doesnt CV play the same position as Okafor?

I ****ing hate 99.9% of the media. Morons, iditots and ignoramuses.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

NeoSamurai said:


> sigh...


I hate whe you quote that guy because I can see what he said. He is on "ignore".


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

trick said:


> what astounds more is how people use the question "but the raptors have chris bosh already" point to use their distaste for the raptor picks. it's as if they think bosh plays 48 minutes a game on this team, they never heard the concept of depth/bench, or don't realize alot of teams often go with a 3 guard/ 2 forward rotation


Well that's true, but I can kind of understand where they are coming from. In their view, the Raptors have a lot of holes, so why draft a guy who will play behind your franchise player. To them, there are probably other holes that the Raptors should have tried to fill. (I'm not saying I'm against the pick, I'm just trying to show you their perspective)

But looking at who we drafted, we got a PG, a nice wing player that plays defense, and a banger inside that can shoot the ball. 
I say we filled in quite a few holes.


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## Unknownone (May 14, 2005)

blowuptheraptors said:


> I hate whe you quote that guy because I can see what he said. He is on "ignore".


BUTR -

My bad (as well) - but thanks for the tip re: ignore -> got that executed now also...


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

i love love love are picks and i cant wait 2 the summer camp these players are all great tools bar slokur cos i dnt no who he is. carlie v, bosh, hoffa a young strong frontcourt i cant wait!!!!!


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

I think part of the reason people don't like the pick is that at the 7th draft position you should at least be expected to get an eventual starter. Did we?

Even if we got a guy who should be a starting power forward in the League, he won't be. He can't, not with Chris still on the team.

So why not pick another position and try to get someone who can start with Chris. Picking a bench player at 7 is unthinkable according to some.

Keep in mind that I personally don't think he was a bad pick.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

speedythief said:


> I think part of the reason people don't like the pick is that at the 7th draft position you should at least be expected to get an eventual starter. Did we?
> 
> Even if we got a guy who should be a starting power forward in the League, he won't be. He can't, not with Chris still on the team.
> 
> ...


I think he is now our 2nd best frontcourt player, thus on a given night in certain matchups, he will start, with Bosh.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

blowuptheraptors said:


> I think he is now our 2nd best frontcourt player, thus on a given night in certain matchups, he will start, with Bosh.


At which position?


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## TDrake (Jun 8, 2003)

From what Rob said on draft night, I think he's picturing Bosh @ 3 and Villa @ 4


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## TDrake (Jun 8, 2003)

speedythief said:


> I think part of the reason people don't like the pick is that at the 7th draft position you should at least be expected to get an eventual starter. Did we?
> 
> Even if we got a guy who should be a starting power forward in the League, he won't be. He can't, not with Chris still on the team.
> 
> ...


Most of the complaints I hear are that we didn't draft a big bodied, hard-nosed centre - sort of a better version of Hoffa. For Petey's sake, people, there was only one available last year and I didn't see ANY on the board this year - what's Rob supposed to do, clone Shaq? 

I mean, Dan Shulman said he'd've preferred Sean May over Villa, but WTF, most people on this board look at May and see Lonnie Baxter ...

For all the so-called holes in our team, the lack of size and rebounding stands our a mile. That was the area that had to be addressed - it was priority number one - and that's what we did.

I'm pretty happy with what we got - obviously, there were a lot of things that the Raps learned about Villa's development in the last 6 months that the mocks and pundits overlooked. The Raps did their "due diligence" and I hope it works out ...


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

GuelphRaptorsFan said:


> Speaking for myself, I have never claimed he got lucky. His ordering of PF/C, SF/SG, PG was exactly right, and very astute. He just picked the wrong guys. Frye and Diogu are better than Villaneuva and would be better fits on this team, Granger is better than Graham. Ukic may turn out to be a steal, or he may be virtually impossible to buy out.


 No way in hell I take Frye over Villy. No god damn way.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

speedythief said:


> At which position?


 Center


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## Unknownone (May 14, 2005)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> No way in hell I take Frye over Villy. No god damn way.


I keep replayin' in my head that Illinois-Arizona NC2A game where Stoudamire's J isn't stickin', but Frye doesn't take over the game a la Deron Williams...


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> And it's the same people who were bashing the Araujo pick because it was made on need, rather than best player available... which many thought was Iggy, who played the same position as our then-star player in Vince Carter.


I bashed the Araujo pick last year, but it wasn't because of Iggy. But either way, I'm starting to like this pick more and more.



> I hate whe you quote that guy because I can see what he said. He is on "ignore".


Lol, no need to take that guy off.


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## VTRapsfan (Dec 5, 2004)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> No way in hell I take Frye over Villy. No god damn way.


Agreed. I liked Frye as a college player and possibly a late-1st pick, but he will be a "bust" for how high he was taken and the New York media will most likely tear him apart...I feel bad for the dude.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

> No way in hell I take Frye over Villy. No god damn way.


Well, I'm iffy on that one. I don't give Frye much chance of succeeding based on his skills and I don't give Charlie V much chance of succeeding based on his heart. But Diogu I would have definitely taken ahead of Charlie V.


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## Vinsanity (May 28, 2002)

Yeah, the mock drafts are to blame


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

GuelphRaptorsFan said:


> Speaking for myself, I have never claimed he got lucky. His ordering of PF/C, SF/SG, PG was exactly right, and very astute. He just picked the wrong guys. Frye and Diogu are better than Villaneuva and would be better fits on this team, Granger is better than Graham. Ukic may turn out to be a steal, or he may be virtually impossible to buy out.


Frye = Isiah said he'd be playing PF
Diogu = PF

why would they be a better fit?

for the other bigs (even though you haven't mentioned them but i will for future arguments sake)...
Vazquez = PF
May = Projected PF, despite already having Okafor people LOVE this pick so much that they think the bobcats had the best draft entirely
Korolev = PF


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

what i don't get is how alot of basketball fans on this site hate chad ford, stephen a. smith, and the like, and yet they're willing to use their points and arguments for this pick.


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

trick said:


> Frye = Isiah said he'd be playing PF
> Diogu = PF
> 
> why would they be a better fit?
> ...


Isiah = Retard
Vazquez = Can play both C/PF
Korolev = SF


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

> Frye = Isiah said he'd be playing PF
> Diogu = PF
> 
> why would they be a better fit?


Because I think they'd be better suited to playing C than Villaneuva, particularly Diogu, with his long wingspan and physical presence. Not that any of them is a pure C by any stretch of the imagination, but of the three, Villaneuva seems more likely to lean towards SF than C.


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## foul_balls (Jun 25, 2004)

FanOfAll8472 said:


> Isiah = Retard
> Vazquez = Can play both C/PF
> Korolev = SF


I would sub Grunwald in for Isiah. Isiah chose Stoudamire, Camby, and begged McGrady to stay before he was really in his prime. A pretty good talent evaluator if you ask me. 

Grunwald picks = Ramon Van de Hare (Who?), Chris Jeffries, Michael Bradley, Alex Radojevic, Antawn Jamison, and Tyson Wheeler, Chris Bosh, who was a no-brainer.

1 good pick (Jamison) out of 6, excluding Bosh. Terrible Track Record...


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

While I haven't condemned Babock yet, people have to realize that he is an absolute target for criticism because of the percieved poor decisions he made last year

the hate and the mocking is going to continue, so all Raptors fans be aware that until we start winning games, we will be known as a complete joke of a franchise, so don't get too upset when other teams fans, columnists, anlaysts and just about everyone makes fun of Babcock...which they should until he proves otherwise

Just like last year, there would have been more popular picks, and Babcock took a chance yet again. I would have prefered a pick more in line with what mock drafts and fans anticipated, but he took a chance and we'll just have to see what happens!!!!!!


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

GuelphRaptorsFan said:


> Because I think they'd be better suited to playing C than Villaneuva, particularly Diogu, with his long wingspan and physical presence. Not that any of them is a pure C by any stretch of the imagination, but of the three, Villaneuva seems more likely to lean towards SF than C.


 Okay, so Villy's more of a 3. At least he's 6'10 (at least). Diogu is *6'8* and you want him playing center for us? Yeah he's got a good wingspan but he gives up enough inches.

As for Frye... I want no part of another twig from Arizona trying center for us.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Last time I checked, Sean May played the same position as Okafor, yet Stephen A. Smith was absolutely praising that pick. ****ing moron.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

FanOfAll8472 said:


> Vazquez = Can play both C/PF


vazquez = 6'10, 230 lbs
villanueva = 6'10 237 lbs

if you call vazquez a c/pf then there's no reason why you shouldn't call charlie a c/pf either.


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## Magus Relmyn (Oct 26, 2004)

trick said:


> vazquez = 6'10, 230 lbs
> villanueva = 6'10 237 lbs
> 
> if you call vazquez a c/pf then there's no reason why you shouldn't call charlie a c/pf either.


I don't know if Villa can be a solid C in this league. Prove me wrong, Chucko. :clap:


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

trick said:


> vazquez = 6'10, 230 lbs
> villanueva = 6'10 237 lbs
> 
> if you call vazquez a c/pf then there's no reason why you shouldn't call charlie a c/pf either.


:laugh: Great logic (weight and height determine absolutely the position players play?). Following your logic, Rashad McCants = 6'4", 201 lbs, Deron Williams = 6'3", 202 lbs. If Williams can play the 1 and even some 2 on occasion, why can't McCants, who is a 2, play the 1 on occasion? Don't tell me he can either, because that would be an utter disaster.

But flawed logic aside, Charlie probably can play some C. Secondly, Vazquez, if you really want to nitpick about trivial issues is probably a PF first and a C center and has the ability to swing at both positions (at least from reports). He's supposed to be somewhat tough and a good defender and rebounder, which trivially makes him a better fit at center. I was just pointing out that most people who have seen him play believe he can play both positions. It doesn't matter all that much in the end anyways, because they're two big men.


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## Q8i (Oct 23, 2004)

Honestly.. You Dunno How Pissed I Was When They Took Charlie At 7.. But At The End Of The Day, We Dont Know What They Can Do Cuz The Season Didn't Even Start Yet. So I Have No Right Sayin Anythin, Or Talkin Smack About Rob. He Picked Him, What Can We Do, U Know?

All I'm Gon Say Is, Raptors Are Goin To Play Way Better Than They Did In 04-05.. Thas All I Know So Far.

NE Wayz - Every Raps Fan Should Be Excited, Thas All I Know So Far. :clown: :clown: :clown:


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

trick said:


> vazquez = 6'10, 230 lbs
> villanueva = 6'10 237 lbs
> 
> if you call vazquez a c/pf then there's no reason why you shouldn't call charlie a c/pf either.


Are you Rob Babcock? Maybe that is what he was thinking..... :biggrin:


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## VTRapsfan (Dec 5, 2004)

vigilante said:


> Last time I checked, Sean May played the same position as Okafor, yet Stephen A. Smith was absolutely praising that pick. ****ing moron.


LOL true...but I don't think SAS is really that bad of an analyst, he just screams a lot. Also I think part of the reason he is there is, after Jay Bilas goes over the player's good points, to note the reasons the player might not do well. In other words, Bilas shows the positive things, and Smith shows the negative things. And don't forget, all the analysts loved Sean May - he wasn't alone.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

AJ Prus said:


> Are you Rob Babcock? Maybe that is what he was thinking..... :biggrin:


If Babcock picked Vasquez with the 7th pick, I would have resigned as mod of this forum.
I'd rather have Charlie on my team any day of the week, and twice on Sundays.
Last year people were bashing Babcock because he went for need and not the best player available. This year he went ahead and picked arguably the best player available, and he is still being bashed.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

maybe Babcock was prepared to send CV3+filler for Magloire and the trade didn't work out?


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

> Okay, so Villy's more of a 3. At least he's 6'10 (at least). Diogu is 6'8 and you want him playing center for us? Yeah he's got a good wingspan but he gives up enough inches.


I wouldn't want Diogu playing center full-time, but I think he'd be capable of filling in minutes there, certainly more capable than Charlie V is. Diogu may be a couple inches too short for the position, but I think his strength and wingspan will allow him to compensate for that.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Going by that logic, Tayshaun Prince's wingspan should allow him to play some minutes at the 4, and even the 5, too. I wouldn't want Prince playing any position but the 3, and he's 6'9.

Wingspan is nice (and strength), but height DOES matter. So I just find ridiculous how you could say that a 6'8 Diogu is _certainly_ more capable than Villy at playing center.


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## ColinBeehler (Oct 14, 2003)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Going by that logic, Tayshaun Prince's wingspan should allow him to play some minutes at the 4, and even the 5, too. I wouldn't want Prince playing any position but the 3, and he's 6'9.
> 
> Wingspan is nice (and strength), but height DOES matter. So I just find ridiculous how you could say that a 6'8 Diogu is _certainly_ more capable than Villy at playing center.


How does height matter... What do you use the top of your head for in the low post? What really matters is where the top of the hand is without jumping, where the top of the hand is when jumping, how quickly you can get up to that height, your strength matters a lot as well. Your Tayshaun Prince example is shot down mainly by his strength I would say. Also, low post moves talent is a pretty tough thing to put a number to. When you get into a basketball game you start to forget how the player is, and you notice whether you are taking him to school or not. Ben Wallace is listed at 6'9" but claims he is 6'6" in shoes in reality... How the hell does that guy get by in the low post? He's got long arms, and a helluva lot of strength. I mean there are exceptions, anyone remember Yao dunking all over him in the allstar game two years ago? But that still had nothing to do with where his head was. I think the most key measurement is standing reach. Actually no, forget that. Just watch them play, work them out. See how they do in that respect. Then make your decision. Other then that, lets realize that the GM's in the nba have an unfair advantage on us. Hopefully Mr Babcock makes us all look silly.

-lata


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I think Charlie fits with our team SO much better than Diogu, who will be a good NBA power forward but is more than lacking in versatility. Charlie's a true freak, basically as close to Bosh in game and potential that you're going to find- and no, you can't pass that up. 

Man I can't wait to see Charlie and Bosh trailing/leading the break. A couple of gazelles right there. 

And the ISOs!!! Who are you going to leave to double team these guys? 

The pick and roll/pop!!! 

on and on it goes...i'm going to feel like slitting my wrists when november comes and i can't watch...


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

> Going by that logic, Tayshaun Prince's wingspan should allow him to play some minutes at the 4, and even the 5, too. I wouldn't want Prince playing any position but the 3, and he's 6'9.


Tayshaun Prince is a poor analogy, like ColinBeehler points out, Big Ben is much closer physically to Diogu. Tayshaun is a wonderful player, he's not a banger, Diogu is.



> Wingspan is nice (and strength), but height DOES matter. So I just find ridiculous how you could say that a 6'8 Diogu is certainly more capable than Villy at playing center.


 h w/ shoes weight wingspan reach
Villanueva, Charlie 6' 9½" 236.6 7' 0¼" 9' 1" 
Diogu, Ike 6' 8" 255.4 7' 3½" 9' 1" 

Sure, Diogu loses 1½" in height, but has the same reach, gains 3" in wingspan and has 20 pounds on Charlie V. You give me those numbers without knowing anything about the players and I'll pick the second one every time. Tell me that the first one is inconsistent and soft at times and I'll definitely pick the second one. Could I be wrong and could Charlie V be better suited to playing minutes at center? Sure, but I don't see any evidence that suggests it.

Again, at the end of the day, my biggest issue with Charlie V is that he's inconsistent, soft and doesn't seem to have enough heart to play well at this level. My biggest issue with the pick is that there were better players available. I'm sure hoping I'm wrong, though.


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## ColinBeehler (Oct 14, 2003)

Yep, I'm hoping your wrong too. All of the articles I've been reading lately, have been pro-Villy and they all address that lack of heart issue or whatever. But nothing anyone says is going to change his performance come game day. I hate doing this, but we have to wait and see for game day.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

GuelphRaptorsFan said:


> h w/ shoes weight wingspan reach
> Villanueva, Charlie 6' 9½" 236.6 7' 0¼" 9' 1"
> Diogu, Ike 6' 8" 255.4 7' 3½" 9' 1"



I know that's what the measurment list said but Charlie's shoed height is wrong. Everyone else in the draft got an inch to an inch and a half added from shoes. I think it must but a typo- meaning his shoed height is actually 6'10.5


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

> I know that's what the measurment list said but Charlie's shoed height is wrong. Everyone else in the draft got an inch to an inch and a half added from shoes. I think it must but a typo- meaning his shoed height is actually 6'10.5


Thats an interesting point, dude must have really thin shoes. I'm not convinced its a typo, you'd think Villaneuva's people would have had that corrected fast as lightning. Well, I'll saw it off and assume he's 6'10". Even so, while that does make it a closer saw-off between measurements, I'd still have to go with the guy whose got 20 more pounds and a 3" longer wingspan playing some minutes at center than the guy who is 2-2½" taller.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

GuelphRaptorsFan said:


> Tayshaun Prince is a poor analogy, like ColinBeehler points out, Big Ben is much closer physically to Diogu. Tayshaun is a wonderful player, he's not a banger, Diogu is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't worry... you are incredibly wrong.

Villaneuva was a beast fighting for boards. Perhaps he is inconsistent, but NOT soft and he has heart. Watch the games from THIS YEAR, ESPECIALLY DURING BIG EAST PLAY and the type of rebounds he got, and look at the rebound numbers, [strike]and you will realize how incredibly stupid your post was.[/strike]

Despite the wingspan and the girth, Diogu pales to Charlie V in rebounding - better scorer however. Alot of people saw the "wing" Charlie V last year in there national championship run... I saw him about 8 other games this year, when he was asked to bang inside on the offensive end and he was pretty damn impressive at it.

To get a rebound less then every three minutes when one of your teammates is a rebound freak as well (Josh Boone) is impressive.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

> Villaneuva was a beast fighting for boards. Perhaps he is inconsistent, but NOT soft.
> 
> Despite the wingspan and the girth, Diogu pales to Charlie V in rebounding - better scorer however. Alot of people saw the "wing" Charlie V last year in there national championship run... I saw him about 8 other games this year, when he was asked to bang inside on the offensive end and he was pretty damn impressive at it.
> 
> To get a rebound less then every three minutes when one of your teammates is a rebound freak as well (Josh Boone) is impressive.


And I'll certainly admit to not having seen much of him, so you could easily be right. I'm relying on scouting reports from NBADraft.net (Still soft at times, which leads to him being a weak interior defender), DraftExpress.com (Doesn't always play with the type of aggressiveness you would expect...Doesn't seem to mind letting his man establish deep position on him in the post) and others.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

My apologies, I replied with a quote from you before you editted your response (to make it more abusive, from all appearances).


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Still, composing your stance entirely on nbadraft.net scouting reports of a guy that was on a #2 seed is more than a little condemning.


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

Turkish Delight said:


> Last year people were bashing Babcock because he went for need and not the best player available. This year he went ahead and picked arguably the best player available, and he is still being bashed.


I'm fairly certain I read Babcock state he went into the draft with the mindset of drafting the best bigman available. If that is indeed the case, then I think Babcock needs to re-evaluate his drafting procedures.

This draft was chock full of quality guards and wing players in the top 10. If Babcock thinks Charlie V was the best available player at number 7, ahead of all the other guards/wings, then I'm fine with that. But if he went in and drafted Charlie V solely on the proviso that Charlie was the best available big man at out pick, then I really think something needs to be done with the franchise drafting.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

> Still, composing your stance entirely on nbadraft.net scouting reports of a guy that was on a #2 seed is more than a little condemning.


Well, we've got to go with what information is available to us. I looked at numerous scouting reports, not just that one, and they were virtually all unanimous that he hasn't been aggressive enough or is soft on defense at times or phrases to that effect. I'm willing to accept the judgement of those scouting reports, at least until I can see him in action in a Raps uniform and judge for myself.


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