# Garbajosa claims #15 [merged]



## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

*Garbajosa claims #15*

:biggrin:


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## undefined_playa (Oct 23, 2005)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*

^ ok.....


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*

you made this thread because he has vince carters number.


frreeeepost.


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## undefined_playa (Oct 23, 2005)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*

lol ok i get it :clap:


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## Brown_Balla (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*

i think he WILL wear carter's number


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*

I sure ****in hope so, then we can retire porno man's #


bwahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*



Brown_Balla said:


> i think he WILL wear carter's number


Seems like he's going to.


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## Q8i (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*

YES! I Was Waitin For Somebody To Take VC's Number.. HaHaHa


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*

NOOOO! I'm sorry but VC should get his # retired. No more hard feelings. Retire the guy's #. He's done more for this team & city that far overweigh the negative circumstances that ended his tenure here.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*



neoxsupreme said:


> NOOOO! I'm sorry but VC should get his # retired. No more hard feelings. Retire the guy's #. He's done more for this team & city that far overweigh the negative circumstances that ended his tenure here.


uhh ya... remember when he lead us to... wait a sec


stehfoo noob


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*



pmac34 said:


> uhh ya... remember when he lead us to... wait a sec
> 
> 
> stehfoo noob


All of this franchise's playoff berths came when he was the best player of the team. He's been an All-Star multiple times as a Raptor. There are players that have played for other teams that have done less & had their #s retired. OK so I know he didn't lead us to a ship or anything but you've got to even look beyond what happens on the court. He's done so much charity work for this city & those things can be taken into account also. He put the Raptors on the map. He gave this franchise a face for half a decade. He's the greatest Raptor ever so far until Bosh surpasses him in this franchise' short history.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*



neoxsupreme said:


> All of this franchise's playoff berths came when *he was the best player of the team.* He's been an All-Star multiple times as a Raptor. There are players that have played for other teams that have done less & had their #s retired. OK so I know he didn't lead us to a ship or anything but you've got to even look beyond what happens on the court. He's done so much charity work for this city & those things can be taken into account also. He put the Raptors on the map. He gave this franchise a face for half a decade. He's the greatest Raptor ever so far until Bosh surpasses him in this franchise' short history.


not necessarily

i believe that t-mac was always our best player


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## Lope31 (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*



pmac34 said:


> stehfoo noob


Raptors Forum Credibility: -1000


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## TORONTO (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*



Q8i said:


> YES! I Was Waitin For Somebody To Take VC's Number.. HaHaHa



Why? Whats with all the hate agaisnt VC? Yea in his final year he wasnt himself and demanded a trade, but other then that he put the Toronto Raptors on the map. Without him we wouldnt advance to the Eastern Converence semi-finals game 7. He was the leading vote getter for the all-star games for multiple seasons. He WAS our best player for most of his career with the Raptors, just not his final season. Def. the Raptors top 3 all time player to wear a Raptors uniform. I dont know why everyone is ssooo against this guy, people need to move on from what happend in the past and look at the present and the future. His jersey should be retired also.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*



pmac34 said:


> not necessarily
> 
> i believe that t-mac was always our best player


He could have been our best player. Could have but he wasn't. Are you kidding me? Your hatred for VC is so obvious w/ this post. He was the best Raptor ever & you know it.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*

Porn Star dropped 18 last night wearing 15 against China.. games top scorer


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## l2owen (Apr 24, 2006)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*



neoxsupreme said:


> All of this franchise's playoff berths came when he was the best player of the team. He's been an All-Star multiple times as a Raptor. There are players that have played for other teams that have done less & had their #s retired. OK so I know he didn't lead us to a ship or anything but you've got to even look beyond what happens on the court. He's done so much charity work for this city & those things can be taken into account also. He put the Raptors on the map. He gave this franchise a face for half a decade. He's the greatest Raptor ever so far until Bosh surpasses him in this franchise' short history.


you dont retire a guys number who screwed over your team by forcing a trade and going public about it . no way in hell. and especially when he didnt give 100% when he played for you . doesnt matter. he took himself over the good of the team.i loved vince carter. but he stabbed this organization in the heart. even though this organization did a ****ty job surrounding him with talent. but that doesnt matter. he left this place in a very bad way , and no way in hell should a player like that be honored with a retired jersey.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*

I want Jorge to have a stellar Raptors career, so we'll retire the #15, but for him. That would be so awesome the world might spin off it's axis.


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## swurv (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*

*Garbajosa*

*15*

In the rafters....for the raptors.

HAHAHAHA now THAT would be funny. Karmic even.


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*



neoxsupreme said:


> NOOOO! I'm sorry but VC should get his # retired. No more hard feelings. Retire the guy's #. He's done more for this team & city that far overweigh the negative circumstances that ended his tenure here.


Worst post ever.


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## Vinsane (Feb 27, 2005)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*



pmac34 said:


> uhh ya... remember when he lead us to... wait a sec
> 
> 
> stehfoo noob


ddint he get them to there first playoff position and put toronto on the map


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*



Vinsane said:


> ddint he get them to there first playoff position and put toronto on the map


and then he sent us to the bottom of lake Ontario

Calengelo rescues the Shipp and has renovated by getting the best possible people to fix a ship that damaged.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*

According to... http://www.nba.com/raptors/roster/
Garbajosa will wear #15 in Toronto.

The people that love to be harassed for wearing Carter jerseys at Raptors games now have a whole other reason to stay home.


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*



Junkyard Dog13 said:


> and then he sent us to the bottom of lake Ontario
> 
> Calengelo rescues the Shipp and has renovated by getting the best possible people to fix a ship that damaged.


who is that in ur picture??? and is she indian....DAMNNNNNNNN


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

*Brian Colangelo - Disrespectful*

I appreciate what the man has done in his short time here, changing the whole outlook of the team etc and i was one of his biggest supporter. However, i just learned today that he handed out #15 jersey to ****ing Jorge Garbajosa. Are you kidding me? What a disgrace. The fans who still dislike Carter (especially for his average play in his last 20 games here) might look at it as a good thing, but ask yourself this - Where would the raptors now be without Carter contirbution to the team and city of Toronto in general during his time here? This man Colangelo, has disrespected Raptors past. I didn't care much when gave Alvin's number away, even though i was a bit pissed off and disappointed. But to do this to Vince Carter is simply WRONG! And give it away to who? a garbage man? Yes, we all know you want to begin a new fresh era with the raptors but to disrespect its past like that is ridiculous. He wouldn't even be here, if Carter had never played for the Raptors. Point blank.

_Thats it - I lost all respect for him._


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Why did my thread get merged? This is about Brain Colangelo disrspectful act not just VC. Please return it back to its original. This thread has nothing to do with my original one.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Why do people feel that giving away #15 is a bad thing? If it's not retired (which it shouldn't be), then it has no reason why it shouldn't be used. 

And if you want to argue that it should be retired; he got past the first round once, and led the team to the playoffs twice. The third year they made it was the year he was injured for the end of the season, and though he may have helped them into the playoffs, he didn't lead them there. I don't care how many dunks he pulled off, or how jaw-dropping they were, or how many all-star votes he got, or electrifying he was....those things don't matter when it comes to the actual game, which is where players prove they should get their jersey retired. One conference semi-finals appearance and a few All-NBA second and third teams don't get you into the rafters. Not to mention the way he left.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

^^



Air Fly said:


> Why did my thread get merged? This is about Brain Colangelo disrspectful act not just VC. Please return it back to its original. This thread has nothing to do with my original one.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Again, I ask. Who keeps merging my thread without explaining why? I already told you my topic talk about compelelty different thing than whats going on in this thread. This forum is free for free-speech. I'm gonna contact an admin if no good explanation was given for merging my thread.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> Why did my thread get merged? This is about Brain Colangelo disrspectful act not just VC. Please return it back to its original. This thread has nothing to do with my original one.


Nah, this thread is about reaction to the #15 being given to Garbajosa. Your post pretty much fits right in.



Ras said:


> Why do people feel that giving away #15 is a bad thing? If it's not retired (which it shouldn't be), then it has no reason why it shouldn't be used.


It isn't retired, it's fair game.

We cut Alvin Williams, took $5M out of his pocket, and gave his number to Jones. Don't see many people crying foul on that one, either.


Hopefully we win a championship in the future so that we don't feel the need to elevate the meagre successes we've had to such hyperbolic levels.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Ras said:


> ^^


I'll get to your post, Ras. cuz i'm going out right now.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

speedythief said:


> Nah, this thread is about reaction to the #15 being given to Garbajosa. Your post pretty much fits right in.


No it doesn't. My post talks about Brian being disrepectful. Plus this thread has lost its value since it had turned into post padding. I don't want my main topic getting lost in this.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Ras said:


> Why do people feel that giving away #15 is a bad thing? If it's not retired (which it shouldn't be), then it has no reason why it shouldn't be used.
> 
> And if you want to argue that it should be retired; he got past the first round once, and led the team to the playoffs twice. The third year they made it was the year he was injured for the end of the season, and though he may have helped them into the playoffs, he didn't lead them there. I don't care how many dunks he pulled off, or how jaw-dropping they were, or how many all-star votes he got, or electrifying he was....those things don't matter when it comes to the actual game, which is where players prove they should get their jersey retired. One conference semi-finals appearance and a few All-NBA second and third teams don't get you into the rafters. Not to mention the way he left.


Before Carter Toronto was getting no exposure either from the media or b-ball fans. Thats all you need to know. He put Canada basketball on the map and made it popular. Without him, many of these fans you see wouldn't be posting here. Did you ask yourself how he accomplished all that? He did it with his brilliant play but sometimes one man can't do it alone. Damn, i gotta go, will continue later.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*



Lope31 said:


> Raptors Forum Credibility: -1000


So did you take a thousand off or is that our current standing?


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

*Re: Jorge Garbajosa - #15 in the euroleague..*



pmac34 said:


> not necessarily
> 
> i believe that t-mac was always our best player


How can Tmac be.........Oooops, he's banned.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Carter impacts on this franchise cannot be compared to any other players whom wore a rap jersey.

1. Carter put us in the map (notice, nobody gave a **** about Toronto back then)
2. Got us our first national televised game, and guess what? he dropped 51 points that night and made it known to the basketball World that BASKETBALL exist in Canada.
3. Got us our first playoffs birth, and our first playoffs series win.
4. His charity works he done in the city of Toronto cannot be forgotten.
5. Won the SDC, made the all-star game couple of times, was U.S.A best player during his first olympic participation and won the MVP award. Pssh, i think you guys remember when he jumped over the 7'2 guy.

I see Ras talking about playoffs success, but cmon man we all know 1 man can do it all alone. Carter did all he could to help this franchise. It was hard to attract good players to come here, and he still worked through that. 20 games doesn't make a career, cuz thats what majority of VC bashers base their argument/opinion on. You cannot compare a guy like Pierce for example to Carter. Because the first one plays in one of the many basketball cities in the United State. Carter wasn't just the face of Toronto Raptors franchise, but Canada as well (Basketball players, actors and even rappers use to come here and first thing they think about was Carter) he made basketball popular. He got us the respect of U.S media and its fans with his brilliant performances. So for one baller to accomplish all that, he deserves RESPECT and his jersey to be retired.

This was a disgrace act by Brian. Disrespectful.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> Carter impacts on this franchise cannot be compared to any other players whom wore a rap jersey.
> 
> 1. Carter put us in the map (notice, nobody gave a **** about Toronto back then)
> 2. Got us our first national televised game, and guess what? he dropped 51 points that night and made it known to the basketball World that BASKETBALL exist in Canada.
> ...


Your whole post is basically saying that because he put Canadian basketball on the map (though he did drop them in Lake Ontario directly afterwards [Thanks JYD]) he should have his jersey retired, which isn't reason enough. The amount of celebrities he draws, his charity work, his olympic play and getting televised games aren't what makes players deserved a retired jersey. And extended period with the team, along with wins, and awards gets your jersey retired. Carter never even cracked the All-NBA first team with the Raptors, and only made the second team once. In fact, he's only been on two All-NBA teams period: he was on the third team once, then the second team the next year, and hasn't been on one since, and that was in the 00-01 season. And I know you need a team to win, but wins still do matter nonetheless. Also you don't necessarily need a top team to make the All-NBA first team (McGrady made it in 02-03 with only 42 wins), and like I said, Vince never hit that once. He declined after his third season and never gained back the same form. On top of all this, he left in a very bad way.

Getting your jersey retired isn't an easy thing, and two playoff performances, and two All-NBA teams (neither being a first team) isn't even close enough to warrant that. Bringing attention to Canadian basketball or not, he didn't do enough basketball wise to deserve it.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Ras said:


> Your whole post is basically saying that because he put Canadian basketball on the map (though he did drop them in Lake Ontario directly afterwards [Thanks JYD]) he should have his jersey retired, which isn't reason enough. The amount of celebrities he draws, his charity work, his olympic play and getting televised games aren't what makes players deserved a retired jersey. And extended period with the team, along with wins, and awards gets your jersey retired. Carter never even cracked the All-NBA first team with the Raptors, and only made the second team once. In fact, he's only been on two All-NBA teams period: he was on the third team once, then the second team the next year, and hasn't been on one since, and that was in the 00-01 season. And I know you need a team to win, but wins still do matter nonetheless. Also you don't necessarily need a top team to make the All-NBA first team (McGrady made it in 02-03 with only 42 wins), and like I said, Vince never hit that once. He declined after his third season and never gained back the same form. On top of all this, he left in a very bad way.
> 
> Getting your jersey retired isn't an easy thing, and two playoff performances, and two All-NBA teams (neither being a first team) isn't even close enough to warrant that. Bringing attention to Canadian basketball or not, he didn't do enough basketball wise to deserve it.


I'm talking about IMPACT and you're talking about first team? Carter would have made NBA 1st team if he played in the U.S, but like i said he played in Canada and even with the attention he brought, it was still not enough.. You don't compare players like Tmac or Pierce to what Carter has done here. Basketball was dead before he was drafted. You will never understand this so lets just agree to disagree.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> I'm talking about IMPACT and you're talking about first team? Carter would have made NBA 1st team if he played in the U.S, but like i said he played in Canada and even with the attention he brought, it was still not enough.. You don't compare players like Tmac or Pierce to what Carter has done here. Basketball was dead before he was drafted. You will never understand this so lets just agree to disagree.


What are you talking about? I actually live in Toronto, and have since Vince was here. I think I know. Just because Vince played in Canada isn't the reason he didn't get first team. He didn't get first team because he wasn't good enough. And impact is shown by awards and such, and if you can't even make the All-NBA first team once, and only make the other teams a total of twice, what impact did you make that deserves a retired jersey (from a basketball standpoint)? If it were like that, the NBA would probably be resorting to triple digits by now. Again, what he did for Toronto doesn't really matter, it's what he does on the court that matters, and he didn't do enough.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

air fly, you DO know that VC HATES toronto right? And that he basically disrespected us..


so why do you cling to him so bad?


Dude didn't want to be here anymore, he turned his back on us, why should we still praise him?


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> I'm talking about IMPACT and you're talking about first team? Carter would have made NBA 1st team if he played in the U.S, but like i said he played in Canada and even with the attention he brought, it was still not enough.. You don't compare players like Tmac or Pierce to what Carter has done here. *Basketball was dead before he was drafted. You will never understand this so lets just agree to disagree.*




How old were you when Vince was drafted....not old enough to have the pulse of the Toronto fan base. Basketball was not dead, it was far from it.....did VC bring in the bandwagon fans....sure, but it is the die hards that make a team what it is, and the Rap's had those fans from the second the team was made. How come Toronto still is in the top 10 in league attendance with out Vince? Because people are Raptor fans, not Vince Carter Fans.

I was never a big Vince fan....sure he did some nice things, but his game is not what I like to see. From Mighty Mouse to Bargnani I am a Raptors fan first! 

Vince has not done enough on the court to get his jersey in the rafters.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

*Re: Brian Colangelo - Disrespectful*



Air Fly said:


> The fans who still dislike Carter (especially for his average play in his last 20 games here) might look at it as a good thing, but ask yourself this - Where would the raptors now be without Carter contirbution to the team and city of Toronto in general during his time here? [/I]


So right now were a middle of the road team, rebuilding because of Vince. Basically we could have had that with Vince or without him. So I ask you how has he helped the current situation? How could things be any worse if Vince would never have been here? 

And before you give the obvious answer... If you think we would have lost our franchise sans Vince, your delusional.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i can hardly believe that this is being seen as controversial. of course, it tends to be carter's fanbase that sees it as such, and carter's haters that represent the opposing extreme, but seriously- i don't think anyone would really consider retiring #15 in toronto. i mean, *seriously*. i know some people _want_ to believe it (and others want _not_ to believe it) but given the standards that currently exist for retiring jerseys at the nba level, it's not even an issue in my world. it's a little surprising to me that i'm even writing about this. 

the arguments will be made from both sides, and fine, but most would be rooted in bias (just my opinion). did carter put toronto on the nba map? maybe for some people (after all, how else can you explain raptors fans all over asia during that time- a few of whom have stuck around and most of whom have since left?) but not for the fans *i* _truly_ respect, to be honest with you. for me, the raptors were put on the nba map when they selected damon stoudamire at the 95 entry draft. probably even before then, when there were 3 investment groups battling over the team. i like sharing my fanhood with other fans who primarily love teams and not players. i think most fans from most cities would feel the same way- unless they're fans without teams in their cities. i really don't care if vince helped to grow a large raptors fanbase in hong kong, for example. i don't think many people would- outside of those fans in hong kong. to retire his jersey in toronto because he helped to grow a sizable (but since departed) fanbase on the other side of the world is, well, somewhat 'childish' and symbolic (imo) of the tenuous raptors residency held by those fans in the first place. 

and i mean, i don't want to waste anyone's time, but what did vince really achieve while he was here? aside from marketing, the guy's career as a raptor was anything but grand. even the positives were somewhat muted by the disastrous ending (which lasted almost 2 full years). he really didn't achieve very much in toronto and we'll all just have to learn to deal with that. if anything, it was unrealized potential. is glen rice's #41 going to be retired in miami because he led the first heat team to the playoffs? doubt it. is shaq's (this is shaquille o'neal- who led orlando to the finals in 95) #32 even going to be retired by the magic because he put them "on the map" after years of utter failure? i don't think so. i think carter's legacy in toronto probably lies somewhere in between those two, so that would tell you all you need to know (assuming you really want to know it).

most of carter's fans don't care where he plays, i guess, i'm thinking they just want him to be recognized. that's fine, that's their fanhood defined in (overly) simple terms. but retiring jerseys is taken to represent more meaning than that, it's seen as being more cherished than that: it's not about recognition; it's about (usually long-standing) success. 

but people are smart, they know that already. they can deny themselves the logic forever, but that won't change anything. people already know. and they'll eventually have to deal with what they already know. 

peace


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Ballocks.....once again a great post by you!

If basketballboards.net had jersey's to retire, yours would be in the Raptor's forum rafters. Your posts are well thought out and make a point, it is a pleasure to read them. Please keep up the great work, true Raptor fans, such as myself, truly enjoy them.


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## VTRapsfan (Dec 5, 2004)

Dee-Zy said:


> air fly, you DO know that VC HATES toronto right? And that he basically disrespected us..
> 
> 
> so why do you cling to him so bad?
> ...


I don't think he hated Toronto. What he hated was the Raptors organization under Rob Babcock. But Babcock was doomed to be hated by VC from the start, because he go the job instead of Dr. J.

I'm not saying #15 should be retired, but keep in mind - the Celtics retired the jerseys of some of their early players who weren't really that good but helped the team win when the NBA was first getting started.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

RaptorsCB4 said:


> I don't think he hated Toronto. What he hated was the Raptors organization under Rob Babcock. But Babcock was doomed to be hated by VC from the start, because he go the job instead of Dr. J.
> 
> I'm not saying #15 should be retired, but keep in mind - the Celtics retired the jerseys of some of their early players who weren't really that good but *helped the team win * when the NBA was first getting started.


Exactly.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

billfindlay10 said:


> [/B]
> 
> How old were you when Vince was drafted....not old enough to have the pulse of the Toronto fan base. Basketball was not dead, it was far from it.....did VC bring in the bandwagon fans....sure, but it is the die hards that make a team what it is, and the Rap's had those fans from the second the team was made. How come Toronto still is in the top 10 in league attendance with out Vince? Because people are Raptor fans, not Vince Carter Fans.
> 
> ...


Let me put it this way, nicely.

If the Carter had never wore a Raptor uniform, there might not have been a NBA basketball team in Canada period. Lets be real, the team wasn't winning and had never sniffed a playoff birth or even come close. I'm pretty sure, attendence was down as well.

1995-96 - 21 wins - 61 losses
1996-97 - 30 wins - 52 losses
-----------------------------
1998-99 - 23 wins - 27 losses (Carter in his rookie year won more with raptors having played less games due to the lockout)

1999-2000 - 45 wins - 37 losses (Gave the Raptors its first playoffs birth).

Those are impacts numbers - All this talk about Carter having done nothing for this franchise for his jersey to be hanged is none-sense. He rejuvenated basketball here, brought winnning ball games with him, something the Raptors weren't famililar with, and made Canadians love this sport. This is a hockey country fellas, and nobody gave a damn about basketball back then, at least they weren't interested cheering for a losing team. 

Carter simply was the big reason this franchise became popular. I mean just ask yourself this, had any basketball fan outside of Canada and the media gave a **** about Toronto Raptors before VC's arrival? He made history with this franshise. He made the Raptors what they're today! a very respectable team till Bobcock messed it up two years ago. Now Brian is trying to fix that, and has done a good job so far I must say, but he didn't have to mess with the shirt of a man who poured his soul for this franchise. Talk about his last disappointing 20 games for us all you want, but the numerous things he has done for this franchise overshadows that. This man's jersey must be retired! That was just a disrepectful thing for Brian to do.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Ras said:


> What are you talking about? I actually live in Toronto, and have since Vince was here. I think I know. Just because Vince played in Canada isn't the reason he didn't get first team. He didn't get first team because he wasn't good enough. And impact is shown by awards and such, and if you can't even make the All-NBA first team once, and only make the other teams a total of twice, what impact did you make that deserves a retired jersey (from a basketball standpoint)? If it were like that, the NBA would probably be resorting to triple digits by now. Again, what he did for Toronto doesn't really matter, it's what he does on the court that matters, and he didn't do enough.


Read my other post, you still talking about individual awards and basketball standpoint. Carter was THE basketball here, ask any NBA player. Every team has its own case, you're still comparing the raptors to other nba teams in the state. Toronto represented Canada as a whole back then and still do till this day. Carter represented well, with amazing perfomrances every time the raptors get national exposure.

And like I said, Carter could have won more awards had he played with a team from the State. Making the Raptors what they are today is basically enough for his jersey to be hanged and be respected.

But since you wanna know what he had done on the court, i'll let you have it.


* Holds for most career points scored with 9,420
* Holds for most career three-point field goals made with 554
* Holds for most points scored in one game with 51 (February 27, 2000 vs. Phoenix Suns)
* Co-holds for most points scored in one quarter with 20 (November 7, 2001 vs. Golden State Warriors)
* Co-holds for most field goals made in one game with 20 (January 14, 2000 vs. Milwaukee Bucks)
* Holds for most points scored in a playoff game with 50 (May 11, 2001 vs. Philadelphia 76ers, Eastern Conference Semi Finals)
* Ranks 3rd for games played with 403
* Ranks 1st for games started with 401
* Ranks 1st for total points with 9,420
* Ranks 1st for total minutes with 15,154
* Ranks 2nd for three-pointers made with 554
* Ranks 2nd for three-pointers attempted with 1,445

* 6-time NBA All-Star selection: 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005.
* *2-time All-NBA:*
* Second Team: 2001
* Third Team: 2000
* NBA Slam Dunk Champion 2000
* NBA All-Rookie First Team: 1999
* NBA Rookie of the Year Award: 1999
* The Sporting News NBA Rookie of the Year: 1999


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

*Re: Brian Colangelo - Disrespectful*



JuniorNoboa said:


> So right now were a middle of the road team, rebuilding because of Vince. Basically we could have had that with Vince or without him. So I ask you how has he helped the current situation? How could things be any worse if Vince would never have been here?
> 
> And before you give the obvious answer... If you think we would have lost our franchise sans Vince, your delusional.


You wouldn't have a basketball team in Canada. Is that simple. Check the stats.


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## DWADE4 (Aug 18, 2006)

Air Fly said:


> Read my other post, you still talking about individual awards and basketball standpoint. Carter was THE basketball here, ask any NBA player. Every team has its own case, you're still comparing the raptors to other nba teams in the state. Toronto represented Canada as a whole back then and still do till this day. Carter represented well, with amazing perfomrances every time the raptors get national exposure.
> 
> And like I said, Carter could have won more awards had he played with a team from the State. Making the Raptors what they are today is basically enough for his jersey to be hanged and be respected.
> 
> ...



Vince did obviously put the Raptors on the Map, but putting his number on the rafters? I dont know about that. He has been the best player to wear a Raptors jersey until now..(Bosh and/or Andrea can be better in some time)


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

DWADE4 said:


> Vince did obviously put the Raptors on the Map, but putting his number on the rafters? I dont know about that. *He has been the best player to wear a Raptors jersey until now..*(Bosh and/or Andrea can be better in some time)


And doesn't the bolded statement warrant his jersey being raised to the rafters. It's all in my sig. Join us. We will band together :biggrin:.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

Toronto spat all over the legacy VC left here in Canada by allowing Garbage-josa to wear #15? The next time VC comes to Toronto, he will drop 50 & dunk over Garbage-josa. Believe that.

Of course I'm joking. Don't quote me on that. :wink:


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> Read my other post, you still talking about individual awards and basketball standpoint. Carter was THE basketball here, ask any NBA player. Every team has its own case, you're still comparing the raptors to other nba teams in the state. Toronto represented Canada as a whole back then and still do till this day. Carter represented well, with amazing perfomrances every time the raptors get national exposure.
> 
> And like I said, Carter could have won more awards had he played with a team from the State. Making the Raptors what they are today is basically enough for his jersey to be hanged and be respected.
> 
> ...


Of all those so called records....how many will last more than the next 5 years?.....one maybe two......take a look at the players in the league who have numbers in the rafters, look at what they have done.....Bird, Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Chamberlain, Malone, West, Cousey.....and so on. Vince does not even hold a cadle to those type of players. 

You talk about how bad the Raptors were before Vince....all he did was make us average. So, do you retire the jersey of the best player from aless than average franchise.........no.....that honour will be left for the player to carry the team to perenial playoff runs and a potential championship....not the gut who got us a game on NBC.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

*Re: Brian Colangelo - Disrespectful*



Air Fly said:


> You wouldn't have a basketball team in Canada. Is that simple. Check the stats.


Very convincing.


----------



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

*Re: Brian Colangelo - Disrespectful*



Air Fly said:


> You wouldn't have a basketball team in Canada. Is that simple. Check the stats.


Miami, Minnesota, Orlando expansion teams all sucked for many years.. yet they survived.

The Clippers, Mavs, Spurs sucked for many years.. yet they all survived.

The Grizzlies did not - one friggin team. Great facts ???? 

Oh wait, they are Canadian... Only a simpleton would think were the same market as Vancouver. It's simple... your simple minded.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

*Re: Brian Colangelo - Disrespectful*

Wait, people actually want Vince's number retired by the Raptors. I thought it was just someone's bad joke.

Consider this. A man works 30 years for a company as a valuable employee and sets many sales records for the company year after year. Then a week before his retirement he decides to go and defecate on the CEO's desk. Question, does he still get his gold watch for his 30 years of service?


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

_AirFly_...

Firstly, you have no valid reason to say the Raptors wouldn't have continued to exist if they never got Vince.

Secondly, like others have said, this franchise had fans from the start. Most of the fans that Vince Carter brought along left with him. Raptors fans are still here, and were always here.

Thirdly, those stats you posted are meaningless because they are just Raptors records, and the Raptors have only been around 10 years. Someone was bound to set them, Vince was just the first person to the plate. That still doesn't get past the fact that he only led them to two playoff appearances (and only got past the first round once), and only two All-NBA teams (neither being first-team). Like Ballocks mentioned, you're not going to see Shaq's jersey retired in Orlando, and he brought them to the finals and had many more accolades than Vince ever had.

Lastly, and I don't want to say it again, marketing doesn't have anything to do with getting your jersey retired. Getting nationally televised games and doing well in them doesn't validate a retired jersey. Attracting fans doesn't get your jersey retired. Extended service to a team, as well as wins and accolades get your jersey retired. 2 playoffs (again, only once out of hte first round) and 2 All-NBAs (again, neither first) isn't enough.


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## VTRapsfan (Dec 5, 2004)

Guys, the Raptors have only been around 10 years - and Carter has been the best player in those 10 years. If, 10-15 years from now, Carter is still the best player in franchise history, then his jersey should be retired. But I sincerely hope that doesn't happen (not because I don't like Carter, but because that would mean Bosh wouldn't reach his full potential).


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

If Carter put Toronto "on the map", why the **** did Toronto get an NBA franchise in the first place?

Get real, homers.


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## Vinsane (Feb 27, 2005)

VC put TOronto on the Map face it ask anybody in the League and they will tell you \, you heard all of his teammates when he left he was the Micheal Jordan of basketball in Toronto and if I was you guys I would hope this new guy didn't wear 15, hasn't Vince whooped Toronto's *** enough already I mean his first game back was amazin but the game where he hit that buzzer beatin 3 must of really pissed you guys off.


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## swurv (Feb 26, 2005)

VC put toronto on the map in AMERICAN basketball fans' minds (and maybe non-GTA Canadian cities). I could'nt care less about 90% of other teams except those in other cities with AN EXCITING PLAYER. Thats all he was. An exciting player who gave people in other markets a reason to watch a Raptors game. But Toronto is the fourth largest metropolitan area in North America (Mexico city, New York, LA, and right in front of Chicago) and could easily support a basketball team, regardless of Vince Carter. We could easily fill an arena for an NFL team too, but thats another story. (CFL and many corporate sponsors apply a lot of pressure to keep this from happening)

Basically, I believe the Raptors would be here regardless of a guy named Vince.

And if he IS the one to hold all those raps-records in 10-15 years, then yeah, go ahead and retire it. But I think if thats the case, the franchise might be long gone by then anyway, I mean how bad would the raps have to suck if that is the best they could do?


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

billfindlay10 said:


> Of all those so called records....how many will last more than the next 5 years?.....one maybe two......take a look at the players in the league who have numbers in the rafters, look at what they have done.....Bird, Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Chamberlain, Malone, West, Cousey.....and so on. Vince does not even hold a cadle to those type of players.
> 
> You talk about how bad the Raptors were before Vince....all he did was make us average. So, do you retire the jersey of the best player from aless than average franchise.........no.....that honour will be left for the player to carry the team to perenial playoff runs and a potential championship....not the gut who got us a game on NBC.


You try to make a case against VC comparing him to the greatest players of all time? There are significantly lesser players who've had their jerseys retired than the above examples you mentioned.


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## LockDown (Aug 14, 2006)

Talk of retiring Carter's number 15 is just ludicrous. For crying out loud, the Pacers retired Miller's number 31 this year. It would be an embrassment to watch the Raptors honour a guy who left the team in shambles.

Oh and by the way, we can stop all this talk about retiring Vince's number, or anyone else for that matter; MLSE doesn't retire numbers unless the athlete has passed away while still playing for the team.


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## 123fakestreet (Nov 27, 2005)

Ras said:


> _AirFly_...
> 
> Firstly, you have no valid reason to say the Raptors wouldn't have continued to exist if they never got Vince.
> 
> ...


For all Carter fanboys, read this post again. A player's fans and a team's fans are usually two different people. Player fans watch the team because of the player. Team's fans watch the players because of the team. Most of Carter's fans left the Raptors when he was traded because they were never really interested in the Raptors. And now, even when Carter is gone, the Raptors are still doing fine and still have may fans watching the games. In fact the season ticket renewals and purchases this year are some of the strongest in the franchise's history.

Carter led this team to two playoff appearances. After that, he had two straight seasons where he failed to play more than 60 games. In 2004, while being coached by Kevin O'Neil, Carter was usually a game-time decision and many of his 73 games that season he left at some point with a muscle cramp or some other injury. Finally in 2005 it was obvious that Carter wasn't trying his best, or even coming close to it, and both he and his mom were publicly requesting a trade and stating how unhappy they were with the organization and Sam Mitchell. So should we retire a player's number when the organization basically placed all its money on one horse, only to have that horse decide it didn't want to race anymore? No.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

123fakestreet said:


> For all Carter fanboys, read this post again. A player's fans and a team's fans are usually two different people. Player fans watch the team because of the player. Team's fans watch the players because of the team. Most of Carter's fans left the Raptors when he was traded because they were never really interested in the Raptors. And now, even when Carter is gone, the Raptors are still doing fine and still have may fans watching the games. In fact the season ticket renewals and purchases this year are some of the strongest in the franchise's history.


I am a rare combination of both a Carter fan & a Raptor fan. I follow the Raps a lot & I want to see them do well. Bosh is my 2nd fave player & I want to see him develop into a great player. I'm still loyal to VC b/c I believe that he did a lot for the city of Toronto. The positive impact he had on the Raptors organization & this nation far outweigh the negatives. VC is the sole player that got me interested in the Raptors & the NBA in general again after MJ's 2nd retirement. I became a Nets fan b/c that's where my fave player is playing now but I'm still a Raptors fan b/c all these yrs I've been cheering on VC, the Raptors organization & it's players like Bosh & Mo Pete have grown on me & it's Canada's team.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

swurv said:


> We could easily fill an arena for an NFL team too, but thats another story. (CFL and many corporate sponsors apply a lot of pressure to keep this from happening)


Great post, except for this detail. You actually think the CFL and its sponsors who only put a few million in the league, are stopping the NFL. Sorry but that is way off base.

The NFL can basically work anywhere. But first Toronto needs a real NFL stadium... and the Skydome is nowhere near an NFL caliber stadium.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

neoxsupreme said:


> I am a rare combination of both a Carter fan & a Raptor fan. I follow the Raps a lot & I want to see them do well. Bosh is my 2nd fave player & I want to see him develop into a great player. I'm still loyal to VC b/c I believe that he did a lot for the city of Toronto. The positive impact he had on the Raptors organization & this nation far outweigh the negatives. VC is the sole player that got me interested in the Raptors & the NBA in general again after MJ's 2nd retirement. I became a Nets fan b/c that's where my fave player is playing now but I'm still a Raptors fan b/c all these yrs I've been cheering on VC, the Raptors organization & it's players like Bosh & Mo Pete have grown on me & it's Canada's team.


You keep talking about those positives, but what positives? If you mean he attracted you to basketball, and got fans interested, well that's just marketing and has no bearing on a retired jersey. You get your jersey for playing basketball at a high level, with one team for a long time, and winning. Carter played for Toronto for 6 seasons, and only made two All-NBA teams (neither a first) and only led the Raptors to two playoff appearances (and only made it out of the first round once), and that certainly isn't enough. It doesn't matter how many fans he attracted (a lot left to New Jersey with him anyways) because, like I said, it's what you do on the court that matters, and he didn't do enough.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

Chuck Swirsky on Vince Carter

"I have nothing personal against him. I have no agenda. I wish him well. I pray for he and his wife Ellen to deliver a healthy child this summer. *One day perhaps a few years after Carter retires, maybe the Raps will hold a night for him and retire his jersey.* Yes, the past few months have been painful, but let's not forget the joy he brought thousands of fans. *He helped put the Raptors on the map.* He was the franchise. Maybe I'm off base. Maybe there is too much hurt and maybe I'm out of touch with fans who turned their back on Carter after Vince demanded a trade."

http://www.nba.com/raptors/news/swirsky_041220.html


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

Ras said:


> You keep talking about those positives, but what positives? If you mean he attracted you to basketball, and got fans interested, well that's just marketing and has no bearing on a retired jersey. You get your jersey for playing basketball at a high level, with one team for a long time, and winning. Carter played for Toronto for 6 seasons, and only made two All-NBA teams (neither a first) and only led the Raptors to two playoff appearances (and only made it out of the first round once), and that certainly isn't enough. It doesn't matter how many fans he attracted (a lot left to New Jersey with him anyways) because, like I said, it's what you do on the court that matters, and he didn't do enough.


The Raptors team successes in the past were possible b/c of him. No, the Raptors didn't win a championship but all of their playoff berths came from teams w/ VC as the focal pt. The Raptors used to be bottom dwellers in the NBA & ever since VC came, he gave basketball fans in Canada hope. Then ever since Carter left, the Raptors dropped back to that low level of competitiveness in the NBA. Isn't it a surprise. He gave games excitement. Don't let all the community & charity work be overlooked as well. People always cut him for his injuries. When they have something against VC, they use the injuries to spite him which isn't fair. If he hadn't gotten injured, I don't know what the Raptors would have been able to achieve. Most players go through some kind of major injury in their careers.

These are Carter's games played in each season:
1999: 50 (complete)
2000: 82 (complete)
2001: 75 (healthy)
2002: 60
2003: 43
2004: 73 (healthy)
2005: 20 (traded)
People don't even talk about how soft or injury prone Shaq is this much & Shaq plays like 2/3 of a season every yr.

The 1st time VC was injured in 02, he came back prematurely to help his team b/c he was being pressured by the media too much. Then that made his injury even worse & had to get surgery & miss more games the following season.

His global impact was enormous. You would see Raptors highlights on highlight reels every week. Carter highlights but Raptor highlights nonetheless since he does wear a Raptors jersey after all. That would mean the Raptors are getting attention & being popularized even if that focus is on an individual. That would be putting the Raptors on the map. Raptors fans could look up to All-Star weekend b/c 1 of the representatives for the team they cheered for is participating (dunk contest, all-star games). The Carter days before the injuries were the good days in Raptor land.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

neoxsupreme said:


> The Raptors team successes in the past were possible b/c of him. No, the Raptors didn't win a championship but all of their playoff berths came from teams w/ VC as the focal pt. The Raptors used to be bottom dwellers in the NBA & ever since VC came, he gave basketball fans in Canada hope. Then ever since Carter left, the Raptors dropped back to that low level of competitiveness in the NBA. Isn't it a surprise. He gave games excitement. Don't let all the community & charity work be overlooked as well. People always cut him for his injuries. When they have something against VC, they use the injuries to spite him which isn't fair. If he hadn't gotten injured, I don't know what the Raptors would have been able to achieve. Most players go through some kind of major injury in their careers.
> 
> These are Carter's games played in each season:
> 1999: 50 (complete)
> ...


Most of what you said doesn't get your jersey retired though, and I even said that in the post your quoted. Highlights, marketing, fans, and charity work don't get your jersey retired. Basketball gets your jersey retired. Like you pointed out he had 3 complete seasons, his first 3 in the league, other than the one the year before he was traded. 4 seasons doesn't get your jersey retired. You can't deny he only got 2 All-NBA teams, and he only led the Raptors to two playoff appearances (they made 3, but one of them was because of the supporting cast getting there with Vince injured). It doesn't matter if they're the only appearances the Raptors had, it was still only 2.


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

neoxsupreme said:


> These are Carter's games played in each season:
> 1999: 50 (complete)
> 2000: 82 (complete)
> 2001: 75 (healthy)
> ...


Watching VC play towards the end of his career in Toronto left a sour taste in my mouth. It can't ever be proven, BUT, I think that Carter was dogging it at the end of his career in Toronto following two injury filled, disappointing seasons. I hope the Raptors never retire his number, a lot of his fans dislike him very much. I don't ever see myself cheering for him if/when his number were to get retired. For the record, I refused to even try on his shoe my last trip to Foot Locker for b-ball shoes.


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## MjM2xtreMe (Sep 1, 2005)

If Carter didn't play for us, how would anyone know what the then-future holds? T-Mac could have stayed. If not we would probably get higher draft picks back then. My point is we dont know if were as good or as bad if Carter was on a different team. As for Carter's jersey being retired, i don't think it should be retired the reason being not enough to have earned it. And just cause Chuck thinks it should be retired doesnt mean that it will. Part of Swirks' job is to promote and be positive about the organization.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

Benis007 said:


> Watching VC play towards the end of his career in Toronto left a sour taste in my mouth. It can't ever be proven, BUT, I think that Carter was dogging it at the end of his career in Toronto following two injury filled, disappointing seasons. I hope the Raptors never retire his number, *a lot of his fans dislike him very much.* I don't ever see myself cheering for him if/when his number were to get retired. For the record, I refused to even try on his shoe my last trip to Foot Locker for b-ball shoes.


This is a contradictory statement. How can they be VC fans if they dislike him very much? Doesn't make sense.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

speedythief said:


> If Carter put Toronto "on the map", why the **** did Toronto get an NBA franchise in the first place?
> 
> Get real, homers.


You need to get real, its a fact. Toronto did have a team before Vince but that team was pathetic and had zero respect from the league. Nobody, even counted them as a team. Carter came in and changed all that.

Get real, hater and take it from Chuck *"He helped put the Raptors on the map".*


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

neoxsupreme said:


> This is a contradictory statement. How can they be VC fans if they dislike him very much? Doesn't make sense.


True statement.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Ras said:


> _AirFly_...
> 
> Firstly, you have no valid reason to say the Raptors wouldn't have continued to exist if they never got Vince.
> 
> ...


Some people just don't get it no matter how much you explain things to them. Oh well, we'll see what they gotta say when Carter's jersey is hanged up in ACC after he retires.

Also, please check Real GM and see yourself how many true raps fans are mad about this since WE are just fanboys. I guess everyone who has something positive to say about Carter nowadays is a homer/fanboy and not a raps fan. Brilliant!


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## 123fakestreet (Nov 27, 2005)

fruitcake said:


> Chuck Swirsky on Vince Carter
> 
> "I have nothing personal against him. I have no agenda. I wish him well. I pray for he and his wife Ellen to deliver a healthy child this summer. *One day perhaps a few years after Carter retires, maybe the Raps will hold a night for him and retire his jersey.* Yes, the past few months have been painful, but let's not forget the joy he brought thousands of fans. *He helped put the Raptors on the map.* He was the franchise. Maybe I'm off base. Maybe there is too much hurt and maybe I'm out of touch with fans who turned their back on Carter after Vince demanded a trade."
> 
> http://www.nba.com/raptors/news/swirsky_041220.html


Chuck is so careful with his comments that he would compliment somebody for stealing his wallet, and this comment should not account for anything. Out of the three Raptors commentators, Leo Rautins speaks his mind the most, and in the game against the Raps this year where Carter left he compared Carter to soccer players.

On RealGM, this topic doesn't show up until the third page. And what makes RealGM different from this forum? Besides that's a very terrible arguement because there's only one guy there who stuck up for Vince...And I've gone to the Toronto-NJ games, and every time Carter gets booed mercilessly and when he smacked MoPete and Steve Javie gave MoPete the T the arena was ready to riot. If some stupid future Toronto GM decides to retire Carter's number, there very well may be a riot.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

neoxsupreme said:


> This is a contradictory statement. How can they be VC fans if they dislike him very much? Doesn't make sense.


He meant to say - his former fans now dislike him.

If you actually had any comprehension skills, you would know what he meant. But then again we are asking a Vince fanboy to comprehend.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> Some people just don't get it no matter how much you explain things to them.


I'm still waiting for a valid point of explanation. It's hard to get something that makes no sense. I guess that would involve denying reality... something fanboys do.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

JuniorNoboa said:


> He meant to say - his former fans now dislike him.
> 
> If you actually had any comprehension skills, you would know what he meant. But then again we are asking a Vince fanboy to comprehend.


Whoa. Throwing disses are we? Just b/c we have some disagreements on VC. I didn't put it in a negative way. I posted that his sentence was contradictory. That's all. I didn't add any heat to it. Anyways, if he meant it differently from how I understood, he should of stated in such a way that would send his message across. Simmer down, buddy.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Air Fly said:


> You need to get real, its a fact. Toronto did have a team before Vince but that team was pathetic and had zero respect from the league. Nobody, even counted them as a team. Carter came in and changed all that.


It is very hard to take this seriously considering your age. If the age listed in your profile is correct, you were 11 years old when Vince was drafted. Hardly in any position to understand what the rest of the NBA thought of the Raptors.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

neoxsupreme said:


> Whoa. Throwing disses are we? Just b/c we have some disagreements on VC. I didn't put it in a negative way. I posted that his sentence was contradictory. That's all. I didn't add any heat to it. Anyways, if he meant it differently from how I understood, he should of stated in such a way that would send his message across. Simmer down, buddy.


That's fair and I apologize - it was more the follow-up comment by AirFly to your comment, that said "true statement" - that irked me. Your statement BTW, was true, but his comment to me implied validation for his points - which it was not at all. 

Your not the one I am taking issue with for some inaccurate statement / invalid opinions (IMO) in this thread.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

JuniorNoboa said:


> That's fair and I apologize - it was more the follow-up comment by AirFly to your comment, that said "true statement" - that irked me. Your statement BTW, was true, but his comment to me implied validation for his points - which it was not at all.
> 
> Your not the one I am taking issue with for some inaccurate statement / invalid opinions (IMO) in this thread.


We're good.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

123fakestreet said:


> If some stupid future Toronto GM decides to retire Carter's number, there very well may be a riot.


That will be me in 10-11 years. I'll be going to Harvard or Yale and then I'll become the GM of the Toronto Raptors- the Theo Epstein of the NBA (youngest GM in NBA history).


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> Some people just don't get it no matter how much you explain things to them. Oh well, we'll see what they gotta say when Carter's jersey is hanged up in ACC after he retires.



I'll be waiting for that day. Until then, let's all reminisce about all of Carter's fabolous dunks, highlights, fans and charity work. Who cares that he only got us to the playoffs twice....and never made more than 2 All-NBA teams. Basketball doesn't matter here.



I can't even explain to you how displeased I am at the way you go about things. You come in and argue about little semantics, that don't have relevance, and then when I throw out some real _basketball_ related info, you keep talking about the same marketing/highlight ****, and say I just don't get it. Think about it man, how much better are the Raptors than they were before Vince? We had some good memories, but nothing past that; there's nothing to show for Vince's time with the Raps except for 2 playoff appearances and 2 All-NBA teams. What else did he do for this franchise (basketball wise, don't give me anymore of that 'he put the Raptors on the map' ****. Even if he did 'put the Raptors on the map,' that doesn't get your jersey retired because he did so through highlights, marketing and fans. That doesn't win ball games or get your jersey retired. Basketball does)?


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

cpawfan said:


> It is very hard to take this seriously considering your age. If the age listed in your profile is correct, you were 11 years old when Vince was drafted. Hardly in any position to understand what the rest of the NBA thought of the Raptors.


I believe you're what 20, Why hid your age now? Plus, with the improvement in technology today, you don't need to be an old man to know all about Raptors history.

EDIT - lol, thought you were speedythief.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> You need to get real, its a fact. Toronto did have a team before Vince but that team was pathetic and had zero respect from the league. Nobody, even counted them as a team. Carter came in and changed all that.
> 
> Get real, hater and take it from Chuck *"He helped put the Raptors on the map".*


Would you call Charlotte 'pathetic' and say they have 'zero respect from the league'?

Blaming an expansion team for being terrible makes about as much sense as a Benedict Arnold War Memorial in Connecticut.

And besides, nobody can say what things might've been like if we hadn't drafted Carter. Things would've been 100% different from then until now.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Ras said:


> I'll be waiting for that day. Until then, let's all reminisce about all of Carter's fabolous dunks, highlights, fans and charity work. Who cares that he only got us to the playoffs twice....and never made more than 2 All-NBA teams. Basketball doesn't matter here.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't even explain to you how displeased I am at the way you go about things. You come in and argue about little semantics, that don't have relevance, and then when I throw out some real _basketball_ related info, you keep talking about the same marketing/highlight ****, and say I just don't get it. Think about it man, how much better are the Raptors than they were before Vince? We had some good memories, but nothing past that; there's nothing to show for Vince's time with the Raps except for 2 playoff appearances and 2 All-NBA teams. What else did he do for this franchise (basketball wise, don't give me anymore of that 'he put the Raptors on the map' ****. Even if he did 'put the Raptors on the map,' that doesn't get your jersey retired because he did so through highlights, marketing and fans. That doesn't win ball games or get your jersey retired. Basketball does)?


Ras, I posted all i had in mind, and i have nothing to add. Go back read the statistic i put up and his RAPTORS accomplishments, plus why he won so little nba awards. I have nothing to add.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

speedythief said:


> Would you call Charlotte 'pathetic' and say they have 'zero respect from the league'?
> 
> Blaming an expansion team for being terrible makes about as much sense as a Benedict Arnold War Memorial in Connecticut.
> 
> And besides, nobody can say what things might've been like if we hadn't drafted Carter. Things would've been 100% different from then until now.


Again, where does the Bobcats play? Or i should be more clear, in what country?

And why do you guys ignore that this was a hockey country before the arrival of Carter. I'm not saying they aren't now cuz that would be false statement.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> Again, where does the Bobcats play? Or i should be more clear, in what country?
> 
> And why do you guys ignore that this was a hockey country before the arrival of Carter. I'm not saying they aren't now cuz that would be false statement.


The average attendance at Raptors home games for the first three years was 19,305.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Air Fly said:


> I believe you're what 20, Why hid your age now? Plus, with the improvement in technology today, you don't need to be an old man to know all about Raptors history.
> 
> EDIT - lol, thought you were speedythief.


Raptors history is something completely different than understanding how the majority of NBA fans viewed the team at the time. That is something "history" doesn't do a good job of recording.

And for the record, I was already out of college when the Raptors started playing


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

neoxsupreme said:


> This is a contradictory statement. How can they be VC fans if they dislike him very much? Doesn't make sense.


My bad, I meant to say that a lot of his biggest fans became his biggest critics.

including me.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> Again, where does the Bobcats play? Or i should be more clear, in what country?
> 
> And why do you guys ignore that this was a hockey country before the arrival of Carter. I'm not saying they aren't now cuz that would be false statement.


So what the hell is your point.

Charlotte's is:
a) Nascar Country
b) College Basketball Country
c) NFL Country

and then finally comes the NBA Basketball team. 

Yes hockey is more popular in Toronto then basketball. What the hell is your freaking point? What does that prove.

SEVERAL CITIES HAVE MORE POPULAR TEAMS THEN THERE NBA TEAMS. Boston. Philly, Houston, Oakland, San Fran. Hell HOCKEY is more popular in Minnesota then Basketball, why don't you go troll there boards.

So when you can prove that all cities can only support one team, then come back.. or get some new material.


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## ColinBeehler (Oct 14, 2003)

Ras said:


> I'll be waiting for that day. Until then, let's all reminisce about all of Carter's fabolous dunks, highlights, fans and charity work. Who cares that he only got us to the playoffs twice....and never made more than 2 All-NBA teams. Basketball doesn't matter here.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't even explain to you how displeased I am at the way you go about things. You come in and argue about little semantics, that don't have relevance, and then when I throw out some real basketball related info, you keep talking about the same marketing/highlight ****, and say I just don't get it. Think about it man, how much better are the Raptors than they were before Vince? We had some good memories, but nothing past that; there's nothing to show for Vince's time with the Raps except for 2 playoff appearances and 2 All-NBA teams. What else did he do for this franchise (basketball wise, don't give me anymore of that 'he put the Raptors on the map' ****. Even if he did 'put the Raptors on the map,' that doesn't get your jersey retired because he did so through highlights, marketing and fans. That doesn't win ball games or get your jersey retired. Basketball does)?





Air Fly said:


> Ras, I posted all i had in mind, and i have nothing to add. Go back read the statistic i put up and his RAPTORS accomplishments, plus why he won so little nba awards. I have nothing to add.


-- the reason you have nothing to add. is because Ras is DEAD ON.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

ColinBeehler said:


> -- the reason you have nothing to add. is because Ras is DEAD ON.


No, because there is just nothing to argue no more. It all comes down to preference. I think those accomplishments + putting the raptors on the map, and along with his charity works is enough for his jersey to be retired. He thinks Carter hasn't done enough basketball wise, well its fine.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

JuniorNoboa said:


> So what the hell is your point.
> 
> Charlotte's is:
> a) Nascar Country
> ...



I was talking about Canada in general not Toronto. He brought a whole country into loving basketball and becoming a fan. Carter should be appreciated for doing lots of good thing for this franchise and the city of Toronto --- and the only way to accomplish that is by hangin up his jersey.


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## Slade (Dec 7, 2005)

While I don't think Carter's jersey should be retired (wasn't here long enough and hadn't done enough), I still respect the man. He was, and still is, the best player we ever had. T-Mac could have been, but his potential was released after he left the raptors. 
Carter not only took us one shot away to the eastern conference finals but he did so much charity work off the court. Paying to open parks for young kids, money given to various charitable foundations, taking time off to help kids make the right choices ets.

Because of his althleticism and high-light reels, basketaball in Canada actually appealed to people instead of just Hockey. People who had never watched a game of basketball in their life were attracted to the Raptors because of Vince. We had many sell out games during the season and were ranked near the top in attendance in the NBA. Of course not all of this is because of Carter but you can't deny that he had a huge role in the matter. 
A lot of players were actually looking north of the border when Carter was in his prime in T.O. and attracted many of them. 
I'm sure that the Raptor fanbase would not be as large as today if not for VC. While we would not end up like Vancouver, we might not be a popular as we are now.

Now, having said all that, Vince has screwed up his image during the last year or two of his career here. Complaining, demanding to be traded publicily, over exaggerating his injuries and of course not to mention all the stuff about his mom. That almost destroys everything positive he created here...almost. 

Therefore, I don't think we should retire his number nor should we still be negative towards him. Me, I neither boo him nor cheer him when we play the Nets and most reasonable fans should react in a similar manner. 

Just my two cents.


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## 123fakestreet (Nov 27, 2005)

Airfly the problem with most of your statistics is that this is just the first 10 years of this franchise. Obviously SOMEBODY has to hold the record. Most of the stats you posted were once dominated by Damon Stoudamire. And there's no telling what would have happened if Carter had never come to Toronto. T-Mac left because he felt that he was playing under Carter's shadow and he became a far superior player than Carter on the Magic. Oh and when you talk about bringing the whole country into liking basketball, Steve Nash has done that better.


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## MjM2xtreMe (Sep 1, 2005)

I didnt know where to post this but since this thread became a Carter story i thought this was a good place. According to friends Carter's wife might divorce him and she might take custody of their kid. Carter may follow them along since he will be a free agent soon. Magics or Bobcats?

http://www.nj.com/nets/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/11563981789170.xml&coll=1


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

i know some people said garbajosa was named the porn player in europe because he did things obscenely well...but watching him being interviewed on raps tv...i'm pretty sure it's just that he looks like a porn star.


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