# Pistons blow out Cavs in Cleveland. Do you believe this?



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Do you think the Cavs need 4th superstar?

Cavs have 3 superstars now. They look terrible when one of them is injured.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

I just want all the people who told me Kevin Love was a top 10 player to speak up now.


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## MojoPin (Oct 10, 2008)

3 superstars = 3 championships?

4 superstars = 4 championships?


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

MemphisX said:


> I just want all the people who told me Kevin Love was a top 10 player to speak up now.


Love is a top ten player. So far nothing's really happened that's made me think otherwise.

The Cavs however? They're not a top 10 team. 

There I said it.

Oh and OP, no they don't need a fourth superstar. They need an actual starting line up. They're a broken team who have resorted to having a guy who struggles defensively at PF playing Center on a team that already heavily lacks defense under the rim, and that wasn't even their main problem tonight. Pistons flat out destroyed them from 3, and their offense looked horrible. 

A decent to good rim protector is all they need for about 70% of their problems to be solved.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> I just want all the people who told me Kevin Love was a top 10 player to speak up now.


According to ESPN player rankings October 24, 2014:

LeBron #1 
Chris Paul #2 
Blake Griffin #5 
Kevin Love #7 

Two best players in the world and 4 of the top 7 in the world.

If they were really this good, they would have won more games.

Current Standing at 12/28/14

Cavs are 5th seed in the east.
Clippers are 6th seed in the west.

Both teams are not in the top 10.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Ballscientist said:


> According to ESPN player rankings October 24, 2014:
> 
> LeBron #1
> Chris Paul #2
> ...


Not really, no. Do you even know what the Cavaliers are doing right now? They have Kevin Love playing at Center in the starting line up and Tristian Thompson is the starting PF. And off the bench, they have Brendan Haywood, their only legitimate center, playing at about 3-8 or so minutes per game, or less. Kevin Love is a great player but he's not a center, especially when he doesn't play much defense. 

On top of all of this, David Blatt is disregarding the fact that when your team is having a bad shooting night, you should probably stop shooting threes over and over again. Blatt has already proven that he's one of the best coaches in the NBA when it comes to getting open three pointers because he's a ****ing wizard when it comes to this. But when his team is shooting terribly from beyond the arc, he still has his team look for the outside shots. 

He's a great coach and he'll soon learn that you need to have more inside and post game offense in the NBA to succeed, but right now he's part of the reason for the Cavs struggles.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

The Cavs roster is broken. I don't think they can fix it this year but expect them to make moves in the off season to solve some of their problems. They're missing a couple of big men that can defend and a starting caliber shooting guard. Corey Brewer would've made a lot of sense for them but they missed out on him.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

I think Love and Thompson are solid PF/C combo. They both can grab rebounds.

Comparison:

When Warriors missing both Lee/Bogut combo. Warriors still defeat a few good teams with 6'6" Draymond Green at PF and "nobody knows" player at C.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> The Cavs roster is broken. I don't think they can fix it this year but expect them to make moves in the off season to solve some of their problems. They're missing a couple of big men that can defend and a starting caliber shooting guard. Corey Brewer would've made a lot of sense for them but they missed out on him.


They should have moved heaven and earth to get Brewer and Dieng included in the Love deal.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> The Cavs roster is broken. I don't think they can fix it this year but expect them to make moves in the off season to solve some of their problems. They're missing a couple of big men that can defend and a starting caliber shooting guard. Corey Brewer would've made a lot of sense for them but they missed out on him.


You're posting only in occasional threads and completely running away from threads you previously posted in.

Why?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Oh, and the answer to this thread is that Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving don't play an ounce of defense. Like none. They're some of the worst in the league. To bring in Lebron James and expect the Kyrie and Kevin to all the sudden play D and care about winning is laughable.

They should have kept Wiggins. At least he plays D.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

R-Star said:


> You're posting only in occasional threads and completely running away from threads you previously posted in.
> 
> Why?


I meant to say, "Why, you filthy disgusting racist."


Sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

E.H. Munro said:


> They should have moved heaven and earth to get Brewer and Dieng included in the Love deal.


I don't think they could've gotten Dieng but they definitely could've gotten Brewer. I don't think the Cavs realized how dysfunctional Irving/Waiters backcourt really is. They've tried Shawn Marion and now Mike Miller at the 2 and neither should be starting games at this point.


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## FormerPHCrew (Dec 3, 2013)

I'd still say Love is a top 10-15 player, it's just that the team is not gelling at all, they're just out of sync and shit. I think it'll get better with time. New coach, add 2 superstars, a team is gonna go through some growing pains for the first year, but they'll be fine.


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## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

pizza hut is gross


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## Fadeaway44 (Apr 29, 2014)

I knew the cavs would lose today. but i didnt think it would be because detroit got super hot from deep


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## KFitz14 (Jun 3, 2014)

Cavs are really talented but aren't built to win in the playoffs defensively. If they find their Birdman (equivalent) to protect the rim, maybe they have a chance.

Also, SVG is about to unleash the 3-point barrage of Jonas Jerebko and Kyle Singler's hair on the league. The Pistons probably got better by subtraction.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

FormerPHCrew said:


> *I'd still say Love is a top 10-15 player*, it's just that the team is not gelling at all, they're just out of sync and shit. I think it'll get better with time. New coach, add 2 superstars, a team is gonna go through some growing pains for the first year, but they'll be fine.


Based on what?


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

All I know is that this bodes well for Boston, who have a veteran shotblocker that fits neatly into Cleveland's trade exception (Brandan Wright) and a big old trade exception to help facilitate any three-team deals if Cleveland gets any traction on one of the other centers they've been chasing.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

R-Star said:


> *Oh, and the answer to this thread is that Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving don't play an ounce of defense.* Like none. They're some of the worst in the league. To bring in Lebron James and expect the Kyrie and Kevin to all the sudden play D and care about winning is laughable.
> 
> They should have kept Wiggins. At least he plays D.


You haven't been watching a lot of Cavs games recently, have you? Irving and Love have been playing much better defense than they normally do. Love's been atrocious at center so far, but even then during the game against the Pistons he was putting a lot more effort defensively than he normally does. They still have a long way to go defensively, but to blame the Cavs struggles on their defensive work is flat out wrong.

And it's pretty clear at this point that keeping Wiggins wouldn't have done much for the Cavs. Their problem isn't perimeter defense. They don't have anyone to protect the rim. They're being forced to devote a lot of time and effort to make getting to the paint be as difficult as possible, so they don't focus on the three point shooters. Teams that have a strong inside presence have been the teams that are killing the Cavs from three. 

My only problem with the Love/Wiggins trade is that Love is the only player the Cavaliers got back for it, which was a bad move by the Cavs in my opinion. There where a lot of quality players on the Timberwolves the Cavs could have requested to accompany Love to Minny, Dieng, Brewer, Williams, any of these guys really.



MemphisX said:


> Based on what?


Well I can't speak on past records since I haven't really looked up what ones where broken recently by other players, but I'd say the fact that Love has two NBA records to his name is a start. Averaging 26 points per game twice is another. Having insane rebounding numbers in this day and age is probably another. How about just the fact that he's one of the most complete offense players in the NBA right now? Great shooter, terrific at scoring inside and in the post, great passer (a very underrated part of his game), unselfish player, and he's one of the best rebounders in the NBA. Now, granted, even with some good rebounding nights this season (he put up 19 rebounds against the Pelicans, against the likes of Anthony Davis and Omer Asik, very impressive), his work with rebounding has been sluggish at times, but on the end of the floor where he got the majority of his rebounds last season, he's being forced to focus more on defense now, which is certainly taking away from his defensive rebounding. His offensive rebounding is incredibly low compared to what he normally does, and for those who watch a lot of the Cavs games will know that he's been camping out on the perimeter A LOT, even compared to last season (due to Blatt's offensive game plan).

Top it off with him actually improving defensively, his value as a player certainly goes up quite a bit. He's a top 10 player in my mind, but I honestly don't know where I would put him.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

FormerPHCrew said:


> I'd still say Love is a top 10-15 player, it's just that the team is not gelling at all, they're just out of sync and shit. I think it'll get better with time. New coach, add 2 superstars, a team is gonna go through some growing pains for the first year, but they'll be fine.


This is overblown. A third of the way through the season the Cavs are the fourth best offensive team in the NBA. That part of the game is working out fine. The problem is that Love (who people have been assuring me for ever would start to play D the minute he escaped the Minnesota Shitshow) continues to be a man without a defensive position while Irving continues to be the Jeeves of PG defenders.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

E.H. Munro said:


> This is overblown. A third of the way through the season the Cavs are the fourth best offensive team in the NBA. That part of the game is working out fine. The problem is that Love (who people have been assuring me for ever would start to play D the minute he escaped the Minnesota Shitshow) continues to be a man without a defensive position while Irving continues to be the Jeeves of PG defenders.


Really? Because last night the Cavaliers couldn't even score 90 points without Irving, that's a problem. Defensively, Love actually HAS improved defensively (and you only need to watch the games to realize this), as has Irving, but I think it isn't by as much as people think. Right now the Cavaliers are in a very bad spot. Any chance they've had of winning this year are basically gone unless they manage to find a rim protecting center, which is unlikely at this point in the season unless they can get very lucky with trades.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

XxIrvingxX said:


> You haven't been watching a lot of Cavs games recently, have you? Irving and Love have been playing much better defense than they normally do. Love's been atrocious at center so far, but even then during the game against the Pistons he was putting a lot more effort defensively than he normally does. They still have a long way to go defensively, but to blame the Cavs struggles on their defensive work is flat out wrong.
> 
> And it's pretty clear at this point that keeping Wiggins wouldn't have done much for the Cavs. Their problem isn't perimeter defense. They don't have anyone to protect the rim. They're being forced to devote a lot of time and effort to make getting to the paint be as difficult as possible, so they don't focus on the three point shooters. Teams that have a strong inside presence have been the teams that are killing the Cavs from three.
> 
> ...


I watched the Heat absolutely bully around the Cavs and score at will. I watched them walk past shabby perimeter defense and score at will inside while Love would do a clueless "What can I do?" Dwight Howard look and not even try on D. Like not even attempt to do anything in the paint. 

You can say their perimeter D is fine, but it's clearly not. You can say Love is trying on D, but not from what I've seen, and even if he's trying, he's failing horribly.

I'm not one of those knee jerk reaction posters who calls whatever team is on a hot streak the new front runners and whatever good team on a cold streak a pretender. The Cavs are a legit contender, but they aren't winning with this defense. They need a trade.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Really? Because last night the Cavaliers couldn't even score 90 points without Irving, that's a problem. Defensively, Love actually HAS improved defensively (and you only need to watch the games to realize this), as has Irving, but I think it isn't by as much as people think. Right now the Cavaliers are in a very bad spot. Any chance they've had of winning this year are basically gone unless they manage to find a rim protecting center, which is unlikely at this point in the season unless they can get very lucky with trades.


The Cavaliers are a below average NBA defensive team, and unless you think the problem was Andy Varejão (before his demise) and LeBron there aren't a lot of other options here. Every time I've watched the Cavs this year I've seen Love play some of the worst positional defense this side of the Big Sky Conference (and I am referring to being where he's supposed to be on the floor, not PF or C defense as such), and watched Kyrie Irving ask opposing guards "May I get you a scotch and soda for your trip to the basket?" every time down the floor. 

I mean, yay, the 6'9" guy that can't jump can stay in position when he's in the paint. Of course he can't block any shots or really protect the rim. It's probably his best position, sadly, but you need someone like Al Horford or Joakim Noah in front of him to make it work.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> The Cavaliers are a below average NBA defensive team, and unless you think the problem was Andy Varejão (before his demise) and LeBron there aren't a lot of other options here. Every time I've watched the Cavs this year I've seen Love play some of the worst positional defense this side of the Big Sky Conference (and I am referring to being where he's supposed to be on the floor, not PF or C defense as such), and watched Kyrie Irving ask opposing guards "May I get you a scotch and soda for your trip to the basket?" every time down the floor.
> 
> I mean, yay, the 6'9" guy that can't jump can stay in position when he's in the paint. Of course he can't block any shots or really protect the rim. It's probably his best position, sadly, but you need someone like Al Horford or Joakim Noah in front of him to make it work.


I'd say "below average" is a nice way of putting it. Their D is horrendous.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

make an offer for Sam Dalembert (I think he still has some rim protection left in him) - offer Waiters maybe


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## KFitz14 (Jun 3, 2014)

e-monk said:


> make an offer for Sam Dalembert (I think he still has some rim protection left in him) - offer Waiters maybe


They can get better than that for Waiters. Maybe try to get Biyombo from Charlotte. Though Waiters wouldn't be much better for Charlotte than Lance has been.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

KFitz14 said:


> They can get better than that for Waiters. Maybe try to get Biyombo from Charlotte. Though Waiters wouldn't be much better for Charlotte than Lance has been.


Charlotte's not going to be interested in Waiters, they've got a glut at shooting guard as it is. They might do Biyombo for that Memphis pick, but then again Cho him in the top 10 a few years ago and he's looked really good off the bench, so they might be loathe to part with him for what's going to wind up something like the twentieth pick in a future draft.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

KFitz14 said:


> They can get better than that for Waiters.


I don't know about that, he's 23 which isn't really that young anymore, by that age most guys in the league are what they are or at least showing signs of becoming whatever that it, meanwhile he's regressed this season despite playing with Love and Lebron in the 4th rated offense in the league, plus his position is super deep league wide so there's likely not a ton of demand (for a shooting guard who cant shoot and has a sub league average PER (12.7))

and anyway this might also be about solving some dysfunction through the means of addition by subtraction


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

R-Star said:


> I'd say "below average" is a nice way of putting it. Their D is horrendous.


Yeah, they look poor in the first three quarters and can't get stops in the fourth. They do their best to mask the problems by playing at a very deliberate pace to reduce scoring in hopes that in single possession games they can eke out wins by virtue of their offense, but colour me skeptical. The inability to generate stops is a killer come the postseason.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Bogg said:


> KFitz14 said:
> 
> 
> > They can get better than that for Waiters. Maybe try to get Biyombo from Charlotte. Though Waiters wouldn't be much better for Charlotte than Lance has been.
> ...


Yeah, to emphasize what Bogg's saying the Hornets need a stretch 4 that can play some defense. They'd have a better shot at turning T-Square into Biyombo than Waiters. And Waiters trade value is pretty low at the moment, he's Marcus Thornton without the shooting ability.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> Yeah, they look poor in the first three quarters and can't get stops in the fourth. They do their best to mask the problems by playing at a very deliberate pace to reduce scoring in hopes that in single possession games they can eke out wins by virtue of their offense, but colour me skeptical. The inability to generate stops is a killer come the postseason.


Especially when you couple that with the fact neither Love or Irving have even seen the playoffs yet. The Cavs could win the title, or get bounced in the first round and I wouldn't be surprised. I can't say that about any other legit contender.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

E.H. Munro said:


> The Cavaliers are a below average NBA defensive team, and unless you think the problem was Andy Varejão (before his demise) *and LeBron there aren't a lot of other options here.* Every time I've watched the Cavs this year I've seen Love play some of the worst positional defense this side of the Big Sky Conference (and I am referring to being where he's supposed to be on the floor, not PF or C defense as such), and watched Kyrie Irving ask opposing guards "May I get you a scotch and soda for your trip to the basket?" every time down the floor.
> 
> I mean, yay, the 6'9" guy that can't jump can stay in position when he's in the paint. Of course he can't block any shots or really protect the rim. It's probably his best position, sadly, but you need someone like Al Horford or Joakim Noah in front of him to make it work.


Stats say that Lebron is a problem. Right now Love has a higher defensive efficiency rating than him (no seriously, go look). I don't like using stats when it comes to defense, but there is that. But never the less, Love isn't a center. He can't play center. I'm surprised he's putting up numbers offensively when he's failing to make 3 pointers. And defensively? He's one of the worst rim protectors I've ever seen. So having him at center as a starting and mainstay position is a recipe for disaster.



R-Star said:


> I watched the Heat absolutely bully around the Cavs and score at will. I watched them walk past shabby perimeter defense and score at will inside while Love would do a clueless "What can I do?" Dwight Howard look and not even try on D. Like not even attempt to do anything in the paint.


You won't hear any argument from me regarding this. Love's a terrible paint and rim protector. Hell, in the last game against the Hawks, there was a point in the game where on six straight possessions, the Hawks scored on basic bump layups, five of those times where on Love.



R-Star said:


> You can say their perimeter D is fine, but it's clearly not. You can say Love is trying on D, but not from what I've seen, and even if he's trying, he's failing horribly.


Their perimeter D is good to be honest. During their 8 game winning streak it was actually great. Their problem, especially in the Heat game and this game, is that they're now focusing a lot more on the paint with more players because Varejao's gone and Love can't defend that area worth dick. It's creating a lot of wide open opportunities from the perimeter for them. It's bad coaching. Blatt's a brilliant coach but he's focusing too much on how the starting line up he creates will affect his offense more than how it will affect his defense. I don't understand why he's not using Brendan Haywood more. He's not a quality starter by any means, but right now that's their best bet at doing anything. Irving/Miller/James/Love/Haywood is not a bad starting line up by any means, especially when you have guys like Waiters, Thompson and Marion coming off the bench. 

Love's improved defensively, he has better decision making and actually goes up to a shooter when they're about to shoot to defend it. Hell he had quite a few good defensive stops in the game against Detroit. That's it.



R-Star said:


> I'm not one of those knee jerk reaction posters who calls whatever team is on a hot streak the new front runners and whatever good team on a cold streak a pretender. The Cavs are a legit contender, but they aren't winning with this defense. They need a trade.


I couldn't agree more. Cavs aren't winning anything with what they're doing right now. Like I said, they're a broken team.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

I'm enjoying this.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Well I can't speak on past records since I haven't really looked up what ones where broken recently by other players, but I'd say the fact that Love has two NBA records to his name is a start. Averaging 26 points per game twice is another. Having insane rebounding numbers in this day and age is probably another. How about just the fact that he's one of the most complete offense players in the NBA right now? Great shooter, terrific at scoring inside and in the post, great passer (a very underrated part of his game), unselfish player, and he's one of the best rebounders in the NBA. Now, granted, even with some good rebounding nights this season (he put up 19 rebounds against the Pelicans, against the likes of Anthony Davis and Omer Asik, very impressive), his work with rebounding has been sluggish at times, but on the end of the floor where he got the majority of his rebounds last season, he's being forced to focus more on defense now, which is certainly taking away from his defensive rebounding. His offensive rebounding is incredibly low compared to what he normally does, and for those who watch a lot of the Cavs games will know that he's been camping out on the perimeter A LOT, even compared to last season (due to Blatt's offensive game plan).
> 
> Top it off with him actually improving defensively, his value as a player certainly goes up quite a bit. He's a top 10 player in my mind, but I honestly don't know where I would put him.


I guess this is the denial phase.

All Love had in Minny was his numbers to prove his worth. Anyone who actually watched him on the court was already saying those numbers were fraudulent and came at the detriment of the team. Now you agree with that by saying his rebounding has declined due to being asked to play defense. Uh, he was asked to play defense before this season, he just didn't and knew nobody was actually watching anything more than ESPN and boxscores to determine his worth.

Also, anyone telling me a PF shooting 43% is an elite offensive talent needs to have their head examined.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> I guess this is the denial phase.
> 
> All Love had in Minny was his numbers to prove his worth. Anyone who actually watched him on the court was already saying those numbers were fraudulent and came at the detriment of the team. Now you agree with that by saying his rebounding has declined due to being asked to play defense. Uh, he was asked to play defense before this season, he just didn't and knew nobody was actually watching anything more than ESPN and boxscores to determine his worth.
> 
> *Also, anyone telling me a PF shooting 43% is an elite offensive talent needs to have their head examined.*


Shooting-wise, Love has been good. He is shooting .565TS%. Lebron is at .584TS%, Irving at .576TS%. Love just isn't your "old-school" PF (how many PFs are leading their teams in 3PAs?).


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> Shooting-wise, Love has been good. He is shooting .565TS%. Lebron is at .584TS%, Irving at .576TS%. Love just isn't your "old-school" PF (how many PFs are leading their teams in 3PAs?).


Good and elite are not the same. Why are people playing this game with Kevin Love?


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## Maravilla (Jul 6, 2010)

David Blatt is in way over his head. He has not shown to be capable of coaching in this league. And he isnt making it easier on himself by putting love at the 5


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> Good and elite are not the same. Why are people playing this game with Kevin Love?


Why are you asking me that? I didn't say "elite"...


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

You need someone who can cover up their deficiencies. Even before AV got hurt their interior defense was thin, now it is invisible.

That does not have much to do with detroit hitting 17 treys. Some times the other team is going to hit shots and there is a limit to what can be done about the fact that it isn't always your night


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

ooops


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> Why are you asking me that? I didn't say "elite"...


Because you were countering the point that Love isn't an elite offensive talent. You even put it in bold.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> Because you were countering the point that Love isn't an elite offensive talent. You even put it in bold.


Oh, my bad, i should have been clearer. Yes, Love hasn't been an elite offensive player. But he has been a good one. 
I was not countering your point, just atenuating (?) it. Sorry.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

MemphisX said:


> I guess this is the denial phase.
> 
> All Love had in Minny was his numbers to prove his worth.


And the fourth highest win share total in the NBA. But of course you're probably going to ignore this. 



MemphisX said:


> Anyone who actually watched him on the court was already saying those numbers were fraudulent and came at the detriment of the team.


Um, no. People who hated him or found him overrated where saying this. Others where praising his talents.



MemphisX said:


> Now you agree with that by saying his rebounding has declined due to being asked to play defense. Uh, he was asked to play defense before this season, he just didn't and knew nobody was actually watching anything more than ESPN and boxscores to determine his worth.


I seriously doubt this, considering how Love wanted to win. I think he simply didn't know HOW to play defense. There where many instances in his final season with Minny (this is going off of people I know who have the league pass and watched his games) where he showed signs of at least trying and he would just fail miserably. Same thing is happening in Cleveland, but the only difference is that he isn't failing as badly. 



MemphisX said:


> Also, anyone telling me a PF shooting 43% is an elite offensive talent needs to have their head examined.


You are aware that Love has been spending most of his time away from the rim right? Blatt is having him camp out at the perimeter like crazy. It's hard to shoot above 45% when you're playing that kind of style, doesn't matter what position he's playing. 

Right now he's not playing like an elite offensive player, but he's definitely an elite offensive talent. You're telling me a guy who averages 26 points per game in two different seasons, while averaging the most assists at his position in one of those years, isn't an elite offensive player? Please. Inflation can be argued (and in most cases I'll agree), but a good offensive player doesn't pull off numbers like this, and break NBA records in his first six seasons in the NBA.


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## edabomb (Feb 12, 2005)

Kevin Love is a top 5 stat stuffer when on poor teams.

It is laughable anyone ever considered him a top 10 player in the league.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

edabomb said:


> Kevin Love is a top 5 stat stuffer when on poor teams.
> 
> It is laughable anyone ever considered him a top 10 player in the league.


So, tell me, who's your top 10 in the NBA right now?


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## edabomb (Feb 12, 2005)

XxIrvingxX said:


> So, tell me, who's your top 10 in the NBA right now?


Off the top of my head guys I would have in the conversation are LeBron, Durant, Davis, Westbrook, Paul, Curry, Marc Gasol, Aldridge, Lillard, Paul George (assuming he gets back to health), Harden, Lowry, Cousins, Duncan and Tony Parker.

At the PF spot I rate Love at around the same level as Bosh, Pau Gasol and Griffin. Obviously he adds some value - as the Wolves have gone from 40 wins to struggling for 20 this season. I just don't see him being a complimentary player on a really good team. He isn't efficient enough offensively at the 4 for the amount of shots he wants to take IMO - which is fine on a 40 win team struggling for offense but on a 50+ win team they need efficiency at the 4 or 5.

I do think the Cavs were also relying on a much more efficient LBJ from the field to balance out Love.


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## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

The return of LeBron is looking like a very bad move. So much so that the "great" international coach may be fired. This is real bad and with the Bulls playing well it's not looking good for Cleveland. 

The only solution is that they may have to move either Love or Irvin which seems like a stretch but unless they want to improve their roster they need to make drastic changes. 

So much for the flexibility people said the Cavs have LMAO


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Pablo5 said:


> The return of LeBron is looking like a very bad move. So much so that the "great" international coach may be fired. This is real bad and with the Bulls playing well it's not looking good for Cleveland.
> 
> *The only solution is that they may have to move either Love or Irvin *which seems like a stretch but unless they want to improve their roster they need to make drastic changes.
> 
> So much for the flexibility people said the Cavs have LMAO


I'm sorry, but this is flat out wrong. It's pretty obvious what the Cavs problems are. Getting rid of Irving or Love won't solve them, and it's silly to think it would. They lack a true center. Love, in part, has suffered as a result of this problem, and Irving hasn't been all that bad for the Cavs. Hell, the Cavs looked lost offensively against the Pistons without Irving, at times anyways.

Also, looking like a very bad move? Based off of what? Lebron himself claimed it was going to take a few years. Not to mention this was expected, especially when one of the essential parts of the team gets injured. I don't know how you're coming to this conclusion. 



edabomb said:


> Off the top of my head guys I would have in the conversation are *LeBron*, *Durant*, *Davis*, *Westbrook*, *Paul*, *Curry*, *Marc Gasol*, Aldridge, Lillard, *Paul George* (assuming he gets back to health), *Harden*, Lowry, *Cousins*, Duncan and Tony Parker.
> 
> At the PF spot I rate Love at around the same level as Bosh, Pau Gasol and Griffin. Obviously he adds some value - as the Wolves have gone from 40 wins to struggling for 20 this season. I just don't see him being a complimentary player on a really good team. He isn't efficient enough offensively at the 4 for the amount of shots he wants to take IMO - which is fine on a 40 win team struggling for offense but on a 50+ win team they need efficiency at the 4 or 5.
> 
> I do think the Cavs were also relying on a much more efficient LBJ from the field to balance out Love.


The players I bolded are the ones I would agree on from an argumentative standpoint. 

How exactly is Love not efficient enough? For his career he shoots 45% from the field. That's very efficient for someone who shoots a lot of jumpers. Hell, he spent a lot more time on the perimeter last year, took a lot more jumpers, and maintained a .457 FG% for the year. That's actually pretty damn good, especially when you consider the fact that it resulted in a 26 point per game season. He's definitely an efficient player.

Edit: I'm actually very happy that you said Marc Gasol. I feel like people underrate the hell out of him, but that's just me.


----------



## edabomb (Feb 12, 2005)

XxIrvingxX said:


> The players I bolded are the ones I would agree on from an argumentative standpoint.
> 
> How exactly is Love not efficient enough? For his career he shoots 45% from the field. That's very efficient for someone who shoots a lot of jumpers. Hell, he spent a lot more time on the perimeter last year, took a lot more jumpers, and maintained a .457 FG% for the year. That's actually pretty damn good, especially when you consider the fact that it resulted in a 26 point per game season. He's definitely an efficient player.
> 
> Edit: I'm actually very happy that you said Marc Gasol. I feel like people underrate the hell out of him, but that's just me.


I just feel specifically for this team he isn't efficient enough. The scoring talent is all perimeter based - so they really need ~50% shooting from their one high volume scoring big man IMO.

If LeBron had carried over his outrageous numbers from the past three seasons it wouldn't be an issue.

I guess my thinking is he either has to improve that efficiency (taking less threes would be a start - 4.8 per game is way too many for a guy shooting 34%) or improve defensively to get into the discussion for top 10.


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

edabomb said:


> I just feel specifically for this team he isn't efficient enough. The scoring talent is all perimeter based - so they really need ~50% shooting from their one high volume scoring big man IMO.
> 
> If LeBron had carried over his outrageous numbers from the past three seasons it wouldn't be an issue.
> 
> I guess my thinking is he either has to improve that efficiency (taking less threes would be a start - *4.8 per game is way too many for a guy shooting 34%*) or improve defensively to get into the discussion for top 10.


This is pretty much Blatt's doing. One of the main reasons Love got traded was because Blatt wanted a stretch forward on the team. Basically, Love is there to open up the paint. If Love isn't at the three point line, then everyone else is outside while he's on the inside.

This is one of the problems I think lies within Blatt's coaching. Love is the perfect all star to have play alongside Lebron. I've seen Love and Lebron run a pick and roll play where Love immediately steps to the three point line, Lebron would pass it to him, and Love would always shoot because he would always have enough room since he doesn't need much room to shoot. It's a very good play to run that is hard to defend and Blatt doesn't run it as much as he should. Love's potential isn't being used fully. 

With all of this said, tonight Love didn't really help prove my point with his play. He was terrible.


----------



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> The only solution is that they may have to move either Love or Irvin which seems like a stretch but unless they want to improve their roster they need to make drastic changes.


How about 2 for 6?

Love/Thompson for Green/Livingston/David Lee/Barnes/Ezeli/Kuzmic

All 6 could be starters for Cavs.

Barnes, Green and Livingston could be starters for Cavs.

Kuzmic 7 feet

Ezeli 6'11"

Lee 6'10"

Why cavs do this? If Thompson asks for 9 million a year, Cavs salaries are over the cap by 15 million next year.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

Ballscientist said:


> How about 2 for 6?
> 
> Love/Thompson for Green/Livingston/David Lee/Barnes/Ezeli/Kuzmic
> 
> ...


The Cavs have major problems to come. Love plays zero defense and Irvin seems to only want to shoot the ball. The Cavs should move Irvin in order to improve their roster.


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Ballscientist said:


> How about 2 for 6?
> 
> Love/Thompson for Green/Livingston/David Lee/Barnes/Ezeli/Kuzmic
> 
> ...


This wouldn't solve the Cavs problems. Do you even understand what's going on?



Pablo5 said:


> The Cavs have major problems to come. Love plays zero defense and Irvin seems to only want to shoot the ball. The Cavs should move Irvin in order to improve their roster.


Please stop posting.

Love: Has a higher defense rating than Lebron right now.
Irving: Was one of the main reasons why an incredibly short handed Cavaliers team almost beat a very good and healthy Atlanta Hawks team ON THE ROAD.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

XxIrvingxX said:


> This wouldn't solve the Cavs problems. Do you even understand what's going on?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What the Cavs should do is finally cough up that Memphis first-round pick to get some real rim protectors on the roster. 

Brandan Wright and Mozgov to Cleveland; Waiters, the Memphis pick, and some mix of one or two late firsts or Sullynyk to Denver; and Kenneth Faried to Boston. Who says no? 

(fyi: yes, the salaries look funky, but using the Bogans trade exception in Cleveland and the Rondo exception in Boston make the financials workable)


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Bogg said:


> What the Cavs should do is finally cough up that Memphis first-round pick to get some real rim protectors on the roster.
> 
> Brandan Wright and Mozgov to Cleveland; Waiters, the Memphis pick, and some mix of one or two late firsts or Sullynyk to Denver; and Kenneth Faried to Boston. Who says no?
> 
> (fyi: yes, the salaries look funky, but using the Bogans trade exception in Cleveland and the Rondo exception in Boston make the financials workable)


If they where to trade away Waiters, I would want them to get a lot more than Wright and Mozgov. He's improved very well this season, I would want more than that.

And also, can't they just release Haywood and get a good amount of money out of it?


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

XxIrvingxX said:


> If they where to trade away Waiters, I would want them to get a lot more than Wright and Mozgov. He's improved very well this season, I would want more than that.
> 
> And also, can't they just release Haywood and get a good amount of money out of it?


The market isn't all that strong for wings who don't shoot or play defense, and they're trying to trade small for big, where you always come out behind anyway. If they could get more than Mozgov and Wright for Waiters, I imagine Dion would already be long gone by now. They can't get a ton of money for releasing Haywood - he's a $2 million contract that's fully guaranteed this year. His deal is that there's a $10 million team option for _next year_ on his contract, so his cap figure could be used in a trade this summer and then wiped off the books.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

why does anyone think Waiters is worth even that much?


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## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

e-monk said:


> why does anyone think Waiters is worth even that much?


Only Irvin believes his value is high.


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## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

XxIrvingxX said:


> This wouldn't solve the Cavs problems. Do you even understand what's going on?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This isn't the NHL. You don't get style points for almost beating the Hawks. The Cavs are lacking the main attribute that wins championships or even contend for championships. The lack of an interior defender will get them get beat early in the eastern conference playoffs.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Love: Has a higher defense rating than Lebron right now.


Individual Drtg is a terrible stat. And it overvalues Love's contribution precisely _because_ of his worst defensive habit, abandoning defensive position to chase after rebounds. Love's Defensive Real +/- (which still isn't a perfect method, but better than individual Drtg) is a negative. So, yes, his defense is a problem.


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Bogg said:


> The market isn't all that strong for wings who don't shoot or play defense, and they're trying to trade small for big, where you always come out behind anyway. If they could get more than Mozgov and Wright for Waiters, I imagine Dion would already be long gone by now. They can't get a ton of money for releasing Haywood - he's a $2 million contract that's fully guaranteed this year. His deal is that there's a $10 million team option for _next year_ on his contract, so his cap figure could be used in a trade this summer and then wiped off the books.


Fair enough.



Pablo5 said:


> Only Irvin believes his value is high.


First off, I didn't really say this. I actually was implying his value is underrated, not necessarily high. Second, I've seen more Cavs games from this season thus far than anyone else here who doesn't have league pass, so I have a pretty good idea of how good he is so far.



Pablo5 said:


> This isn't the NHL. You don't get style points for almost beating the Hawks. The Cavs are lacking the main attribute that wins championships or even contend for championships. The lack of an interior defender will get them get beat early in the eastern conference playoffs.


Literally nothing you just said here backed up for your statement regarding why the Cavs should trade away Irving or Love. First off what the hell do style points have to do with this? I'm talking about the value that Irving and Love bring to their teams. But, of course, since you have no idea what you're talking about because you don't understand the game of basketball, you say something completely irrelevant. Cavaliers have other assets on the team they can trade, they have free agents they can go after. Trading away Irving or Love, their second and third best players on the ****ing team, should be a last resort and only considered if they are having unbelievably bad seasons, which they aren't.

Now, yes, Cavs are lacking rim protectors. Trading away Love or Irving will only create additional problems, something you aren't taking into account because, again, you have no idea what you're talking about. Cavs have the fourth ranked best offense in the NBA. There's a reason for this, and it isn't just because of Lebron James. Irving is a huge match up problem for a lot of opposing guards because 80% of them aren't athletically gifted enough to stay with Irving, let alone stay on their feet so they don't get crossed over by the guy due to his insane dribbling ability. Love is one of the best shooters at his position and opens up the paint even more for a team that has a lot of great paint scorers, including Lebron who's one of the best in the NBA at scoring in the paint. Getting rid of Love would be idiotic, and so would Irving, unless you can get players for them who are absolute perfect fits for each other, are excellent defensive players and can still be able to successfully run under Blatt's offense, which is rare and highly unlikely. 

You don't take away huge pieces of the puzzle, you add the pieces you need to win onto them. But of course, you have no idea what you're talking about, so you wouldn't know this or even think of this.



E.H. Munro said:


> *Individual Drtg is a terrible stat.* And it overvalues Love's contribution precisely _because_ *of his worst defensive habit, abandoning defensive position to chase after rebounds.* Love's Defensive Real +/- (which still isn't a perfect method, but better than individual Drtg) is a negative. So, yes, his defense is a problem.


First bolded point: I said the same ****ing thing regarding Kyrie Irving last year when I defended (no pun intended) his defense and of course people just brushed that off like it was a moot point. 

Second bolded point: This only tells me you haven't watched many games this season. This is actually one of the things he hasn't been doing as often as he used to. Again, he's got a long way to go in terms of improving his defense, but stop acting like it's the same Kevin Love we had in Minnesota, it isn't.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

XxIrvingxX said:


> First bolded point: I said the same ****ing thing regarding Kyrie Irving last year when I defended (no pun intended) his defense and of course people just brushed that off like it was a moot point.


You certainly didn't say it to me. And I'm surprised that one of the other statistically literate people here didn't point out the glaring weakness of the formula with regards Love. His propensity to abandon proper position to pad his defensive rebounding numbers lead to him being overvalued by the linear weighting formulas even as opponents shoot an ungodly percentage in the paint when he's on the floor.



XxIrvingxX said:


> Second bolded point: This only tells me you haven't watched many games this season. This is actually one of the things he hasn't been doing as often as he used to. Again, he's got a long way to go in terms of improving his defense, but stop acting like it's the same Kevin Love we had in Minnesota, it isn't.


I have indeed watched the games, and he does indeed still play bad positional D. While his DRPM has actually improved this year, it still sucks.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

E.H. Munro said:


> You certainly didn't say it to me.


Oh.



E.H. Munro said:


> I have indeed watched the games, and he does indeed still play bad positional D. While his DRPM has actually improved this year, it still sucks.


Oh, yeah, it still sucks. Like I said, he still has a LONG way to go in regards to defense. I honestly think his defense around the rim is something he'll never be good in though. He seems so clueless when it comes to that.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Wrong thread.


----------



## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

XxIrvingxX said:


> First off, I didn't really say this. I actually was implying his value is underrated, not necessarily high. Second, I've seen more Cavs games from this season thus far than anyone else here who doesn't have league pass, so I have a pretty good idea of how good he is so far.


not good at all - he plays at the deepest position in the league so there's little demand and frankly he doesn't do anything particularly well and he's at an age where he should be showing something and instead he's actually regressed this year


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

e-monk said:


> not good at all - he plays at the deepest position in the league so there's little demand and frankly he doesn't do anything particularly well and he's at an age where he should be showing something and *instead he's actually regressed this year*


I feel like I'm in some sort of liars inception right now. He's regressed? Seriously? Did you watch his defense against Wade? Have you seen anything he's done this year? He's definitely improved in that regard and he continues to get better (although at times he forgets how to play defense). His shooting percentage this year is down compared to last years, but at the same time though he had to go through a stretch where he was playing at PG regularly and it impacted his performance pretty badly, and shooting was one of them. I'm not saying he's clearly better in that regard, but we have no idea if he's worse either because we haven't seen enough.

That said, his shot selection, for the most part, still sucks.


----------



## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

yes regressed - shooting is worse than last season when it should be better, his defense is just about mediocre and for you that's something to write home about? and Wade? are you talking about the Christmas game where Wade put up 31 pts?

the dude does not have the value you think he does


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## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

e-monk said:


> yes regressed - shooting is worse than last season when it should be better, his defense is just about mediocre and for you that's something to write home about? and Wade? *are you talking about the Christmas game where Wade put up 31 pts*?
> 
> the dude does not have the value you think he does


LMFAO!


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

e-monk said:


> yes regressed - shooting is worse than last season when it should be better, his defense is just about mediocre and for you that's something to write home about? and Wade? *are you talking about the Christmas game where Wade put up 31 pts?*
> 
> the dude does not have the value you think he does


Yes, the game where Waiters was barely even on Wade in the first half, where Wade scored 24 of his 31 points. Terrible point and I expected much better from you.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Waiters has little value because he is undersized without any point guard skills, yet his ability to score is hit or miss. He needs to solidify his 3pt shot and he'll have some value. If you're going to be a one dimensional scoring guard in the league, it's required that you can shoot the three pretty well, or else you're too easy to neutralize. He doesn't defend, distribute or handle the ball well enough to give a shit about. Not yet at least. Maybe he can work on it.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Waiters has little value because he is undersized without any point guard skills, yet his ability to score is hit or miss. He needs to solidify his 3pt shot and he'll have some value. If you're going to be a one dimensional scoring guard in the league, it's required that you can shoot the three pretty well, or else you're too easy to neutralize. He doesn't defend, distribute or handle the ball well enough to give a shit about. Not yet at least. Maybe he can work on it.


His distribution abilities aren't bad when you consider his playing style, although I guess it comes to a matter of when he actually does want to distribute the ball. 

Oh and to disprove E-monks point about Waiters shooting, as I pointed out before (and he of course ignored this entirely), Waiters had to primarily play the PG position when Dellavedova went out with an injury, which isn't an ideal position for Waiters. Matt was gone for almost the entire month of November, only playing one game. Dion Waiters shot 37% from the floor during that month while mostly playing PG. Matt returned in the fourth game the Cavaliers played in December. Waiters was moved back to SG and his FG% for the month of December improved dramatically to 44%. Oh and btw, his free throw shooting? So far that has also improved, right now he's averaging 79% from the line compared to a pathetic 68% last season (although it's odd because in his rookie year he averaged 74%).

It's clearly obvious what the reason here behind Waiters shooting a poor FG% that month was, and it isn't regression like E-monk is trying to suggest, because he hasn't regressed.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

This is the only way to improve Waiters trade value.

He really need to lead the team in shot attempts.

When he becomes big 4, you can easily deal him for a star.


----------



## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Yes, the game where Waiters was barely even on Wade in the first half, where Wade scored 24 of his 31 points. Terrible point and I expected much better from you.


regressed
cant shoot
mediocre defensively (at best)
plays at a position where there are already plenty of quality guys who are better than him

you're being delusional, happy new year


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

e-monk said:


> regressed
> cant shoot
> mediocre defensively (at best)
> plays at a position where there are already plenty of quality guys who are better than him
> ...


So you basically have no argument and need to resort to this? Truly pathetic. 

Also, see my post here.



XxIrvingxX said:


> Oh and to disprove E-monks point about Waiters shooting, as I pointed out before (and he of course ignored this entirely), Waiters had to primarily play the PG position when Dellavedova went out with an injury, which isn't an ideal position for Waiters. Matt was gone for almost the entire month of November, only playing one game. Dion Waiters shot 37% from the floor during that month while mostly playing PG. Matt returned in the fourth game the Cavaliers played in December. Waiters was moved back to SG and his FG% for the month of December improved dramatically to 44%. Oh and btw, his free throw shooting? So far that has also improved, right now he's averaging 79% from the line compared to a pathetic 68% last season (although it's odd because in his rookie year he averaged 74%).
> 
> It's clearly obvious what the reason here behind Waiters shooting a poor FG% that month was, and it isn't regression like E-monk is trying to suggest, because he hasn't regressed.


You have no argument. You're wrong and you know it.



Ballscientist said:


> This is the only way to improve Waiters trade value.
> 
> He really need to lead the team in shot attempts.
> 
> When he becomes big 4, you can easily deal him for a star.


Lol.


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/releases/status-update-lebron-150101



> LeBron James was evaluated yesterday at Cleveland Clinic Sports Health by Richard D. Parker, MD, Cavaliers Head Team Physician. Tests included physical exam, radiographs and a MRI, the results of which revealed left knee and low back strains. These conditions will be treated via a multimodal approach consisting of anti-inflammatories, rehabilitation, training room treatments, and rest. *LeBron is currently projected to be Out for the next 2 weeks.*


Well, that happened.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

an argument is a series of propositions that lead to a conclusion so

here are some propositions:

regressed
cant shoot
mediocre defender (at best)
league-wide depth at the position he plays

and here's the conclusion:

you are overestimating his trade value

that is exactly what an argument actually looks like - you're welcome for the lesson


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

e-monk said:


> an argument is a series of propositions that lead to a conclusion so
> 
> here are some propositions:
> 
> ...


And yet I've provided points that disprove your argument. You've completely ignored the points. Again, you have no argument, and all you're doing here is once again avoiding my points. You tried to say Waiters has regressed because his FG% is down this year, I provided evidence stating why that not only isn't the case, but why his FG% is actually improving compared to last season, and unless you have no knowledge of basketball, you'll agree that someone's performance when they're playing out of position is not an accurate description of how good they are. You tried to say he regressed defensively, I provided piss poor evidence that is still more than what you've provided and that you have yet to correct.

Again, you have no argument.

And how am I overrating his trade value? I'm arguing against the points you guys are making regarding his play recently, but I have yet to state what his trade value is.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

XxIrvingxX said:


> And how am I overrating his trade value? I'm arguing against the points you guys are making regarding his play recently, but I have yet to state what his trade value is.


You said this: 



XxIrvingxX said:


> If they where to trade away Waiters, I would want them to get a lot more than Wright and Mozgov. He's improved very well this season, I would want more than that.


So Irving, what do you think Dion Waiters is worth in trade value if it's "a lot" more than Wright/Mozgov?


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

If the Cavs could get Mozgov straight up for Waiters right now they would have already pulled the trigger. Whether or not Dion is a good player is irrelevant at this point. He serves no purpose with the team and doesn't fit with the chemistry. He's the odd man out and his trade value will continue to drop because of it.


----------



## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Irving told me LeBron was better off with Kyrie this year and he would be better than Wade. 

#StuffIrvingSays


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Ballscientist trade proposal:

Cavs get
Arron Afflalo
Ty Lawson
Timofey Mozgov

Nuggets get
Irving
Waiters
$10.2 mil trade exceptions

filler if needed


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Ballscientist said:


> Ballscientist trade proposal:
> 
> Cavs get
> Arron Afflalo
> ...


That trade infinitely makes the Cavs better. 

Chalk me up as a guy who prefers Lawsons defense and passing over Irvings offense and nothing else.


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Sir Patchwork said:


> You said this:
> 
> 
> 
> So Irving, what do you think Dion Waiters is worth in trade value if it's "a lot" more than Wright/Mozgov?


I wouldn't necessarily say they need more given the talent of Mozgov and Wright, but given what the Cavaliers are currently lacking in, I would want more than that if we're giving up someone like Waiters for players that don't necessarily improve our position as well as it should.

That said, I think if we're going for a single player trade, and I'm looking for a center that can provide us some good defense, he's worth at the very least a mid level talent center. Waiters is only, what, 22 years old? He's got a long way to go and so far he hasn't been terrible at his age by any means and has shown promise. I'm not about to give that up for ****ing Wright and Mozgov (unless Mozgov is somehow a lot better than what I'm giving him credit for). 

If he was 29 or so years old and was playing the way he is now, well...



Adam said:


> Irving told me LeBron was better off with Kyrie this year and he would be better than Wade.
> 
> #StuffIrvingSays


And so far I'm not wrong, considering how we're not even halfway through the season yet. But thanks for the history lesson. I would mock you for the Norris Cole thing but I think that's R-Star's job.



R-Star said:


> If the Cavs could get Mozgov straight up for Waiters right now they would have already pulled the trigger. Whether or not Dion is a good player is irrelevant at this point. He serves no purpose with the team and doesn't fit with the chemistry. He's the odd man out and his trade value will continue to drop because of it.


This is probably the best post I've seen regarding the matter.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

XxIrvingxX said:


> That said, I think if we're going for a single player trade, and I'm looking for a center that can provide us some good defense, he's worth at the very least a *mid level talent center*.


Any examples of that kind of player? I'm really kind of interested to see what player you see as having the same value as Waiters.


----------



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

R-Star said:


> That trade infinitely makes the Cavs better.
> 
> .


Nuggets will take this trade too. They save big money this season. Irving and Waiters are younger.

Cavs defense will significantly improve.


----------



## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

XxIrvingxX said:


> And so far I'm not wrong, considering how we're not even halfway through the season yet. But thanks for the history lesson. I would mock you for the Norris Cole thing but I think that's R-Star's job.


Hahaha, you're so unintentionally amusing.


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Adam said:


> Hahaha, you're so unintentionally amusing.


Which is french for "I have no argument". 



Sir Patchwork said:


> Any examples of that kind of player? I'm really kind of interested to see what player you see as having the same value as Waiters.


There are no players that fit the description of what I'm talking about in regards to having the "same value" as Waiters right now (not at center that could help the Cavs anyways). It's not about that. It's about whether or not teams are willing to take the risk on Waiters. So far he's shown he not only has improved since his rookie year, but is WILLING to improve as well (which is more than I can say for some people *cough Bynum).

It's like when Minnesota traded away Kevin Love to get Andrew Wiggins. Right now Wiggins is not on Love's level at all in terms of player value. Hell he never even played a game in his life in the NBA before he got traded. Despite this, I wouldn't even be surprised if he does become a better player in a few years than Love is at this point in his career. Same holds to Waiters in regards to becoming a great player one day. With the defense I saw Waiters play against Wade in Miami (which E-Monk tried to discredit as horrible because he clearly didn't watch the game), Waiters has shown he has what it takes to improve in areas of the game that he puts his mind to. He's had games in his past few years with Cleveland where he's shown some great promise as a player. I don't want the Cavs to give up someone like that at his age, at least not for ****ing Wright and Mozgov. 

Out of all of the bullshit E-monk has stated, he is right about something. Waiters, for the most part, hasn't been impressive at all this season. But given the fact that he had to play out of position for the first month of the season, is now playing sixth man to a team that has three all star players on it, and is playing under a new coach, I don't want to say I expected this out of him, but I'm not at all surprised by it. It's a tricky situation. But so far, from all the games I've watched out of Waiters, I personally believe people are underrating him, and even going as far as telling outright lies like "he's regressed this season" when he clearly hasn't. 

At this point, keep him. Don't trade him away unless you get some decent value out of him. He has potential. Don't throw that away for something that might benefit us for a season that is potentially a lost cause.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

So you're essentially saying don't trade him _because_ his value is low, and you think it's better to hold onto him than trade him for something that represents his actual value because you're holding out hope that he can improve his stock. I mean, his value obviously isn't very high right now, and I think you know that.


----------



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Waiters value is declining day after day because no enough shot attempts.


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Sir Patchwork said:


> So you're essentially saying don't trade him _because_ his value is low, and you think it's better to hold onto him than trade him for something that represents his actual value because you're holding out hope that he can improve his stock. I mean, his value obviously isn't very high right now, and I think you know that.


Of course his value isn't high right now. Like I said, right now he's being underrated by many because of the current situation he's in.

Regardless, you're missing my main point. I'm not saying don't trade him because his value is low. I'm saying don't trade him at all. He has a LOT of potential to be great in this league, why would you give that up just because he's struggling right now on a team that is already a lost cause at this point because the Cavs where dumb enough to not have a plan B put in place in case Varejao got injured? As for Waiters, he's shown he's capable of improving, so there's no false hope here, I know he can. Look at the Miami game and look at the great games he had last year. Hell I'm sure you remember that game he had against OKC where Irving was out and Waiters scored 30 points on OKC (a game I was at btw). 






The guy can shoot, he can pass, offensively if he can improve his three point shooting, then he's great to have play under someone like David Blatt (assuming Blatt is still coaching in two or three years depending on how fire happy the Cavs are at that point). On a team like the Cavaliers that has players like Lebron James on it, a guy who can mentor other players and attempt to help make them better, why on earth would you want to deal away Waiters during a season that is already a lost cause? Keep the guy and see what he can become.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

R-Star said:


> That trade infinitely makes the Cavs better.
> 
> Chalk me up as a guy who prefers Lawsons defense and passing over Irvings offense and nothing else.


You're not being very fair to Irving here. He holds the ball on offense, stopping the motion of the game so that he can dribble one on two or three. But he's still better than Chris Paul. 

I would say Irving>>>>>>Paul>>>>everyone else. It's not really a contest. I think that the Cavs signing Lebron really hampered what Irving can do on the court. If they played 4 on 5, then the other guys wouldn't be complaining that they were open when he shoots a doubly contested jumper.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Waiters has talent, and we saw last year that he can shoot some, he's just not wired right quite yet. If the right organization got their hands on him he could become a very useful scorer (think about when Monta Ellis couldn't get a contract offer versus how he's considered now). The guy I'm surprised doesn't get connected to Cleveland more is Enes Kanter - it's looking more and more like the Jazz aren't wild about paying him this summer, but he's going to wind up getting eight figures a year in free agency from someone. Kanter for Waiters and the Memphis first lets Utah kick the free agency question down the road a summer and plug Waiters into the hole left by Alec Burks' injury.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

XxIrvingxX said:


> The guy can shoot, he can pass, offensively if he can improve his three point shooting, then he's great to have play under someone like David Blatt (assuming Blatt is still coaching in two or three years depending on how fire happy the Cavs are at that point). On a team like the Cavaliers that has players like Lebron James on it, a guy who can mentor other players and attempt to help make them better, why on earth would you want to deal away Waiters during a season that is already a lost cause? Keep the guy and see what he can become.


The whole idea with the Cavs is that this is their window to win a title. LeBron just turned 30. Love is in his prime. Waiting on Waiters to develop at the expense of filling a need that will help them right away might be costly. I figured that trading Wiggins for Love was an indication that winning now was their priority. 

But I guess you're right, if you think the season can't be salvaged, then I guess you might as well stay put. I'm not sure they've thrown in the towel on the season though. That's not something you do with LeBron James on your team.


----------



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Hyperion said:


> You're not being very fair to Irving here. He holds the ball on offense, stopping the motion of the game so that he can dribble one on two or three. But he's still better than Chris Paul.
> 
> I would say Irving>>>>>>Paul>>>>everyone else. It's not really a contest.


True or false?

I have a thread:

Ty Lawson or Irving?


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Sir Patchwork said:


> The whole idea with the Cavs is that this is their window to win a title. LeBron just turned 30. Love is in his prime. Waiting on Waiters to develop at the expense of filling a need that will help them right away might be costly. I figured that trading Wiggins for Love was an indication that winning now was their priority.


I wouldn't say Love is necessarily in his prime, but more so he's just about to enter into it. He's, what, 26 years old? 

And yea, the Cavaliers may be in win now mode, but with a team like this where you have a lot of veterans filling out the spots on the roster for roster size and rotation purposes, you need to have some talent that is ready to develop so that way they can be there to help out guys like Lebron and Love when they are older and going into the aging process. Cleveland might not realize it, but they're incredibly lucky right now, because they have two who fit this description. One has shown incredible promise and has made a huge step forward this season, that being Tristian Thompson, and the other has shown that he's wiling to improve and is able to progress in this league, that being Dion Waiters. It's rare to have that on a team like this. Miami didn't have it with their big three and neither did Boston. 

If I'm Cleveland, one of my main objectives after this season is over with is to do what ever I can to make sure Tristian Thompson and Dion Waiters are still on this team. They are very important to Cleveland's future.


----------



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Cavs salaries are around $74 million next season. Salary cap is $66 million.

Do you think Thompson and Waiters will accept the big pay cut?

How about Love opt out and sign 5 years MLE?


----------



## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

I think Tristan Thompson is so overrated. He is nothing unique there is 5-10 players like him coming out every year from college. 

But he shares the same manager as LeBron so he wont be traded. 

Cleveland have 3 major holes in their rotation.
1. Shot blocking centre
2. Back up Centre
3. 3 and D SG 

????? ?????
Love
James Marion
????? Miller Waiters
Irving Delladova

Irving too has not shown me he can create for others yet, Which has frustrated me. (iv only watched 5 Cavs game this season)
Waiters has looked much better in the games iv watched. Esp the last game vs the Hornets. 

A Battier from 3 seasons back would be perfect for this team.


----------



## Mrs. Thang (Apr 14, 2011)

I was saying repeatedly over the summer that trading Wiggins was a huge mistake and they should be moving Irving for Love. Irving isn't good. For some reason even the same people calling him a superstar still only considered him the 9th or 10th best point guard in the league. There is a huge disconnect there. Using Irving's salary in that deal might have even allowed them to get a piece like Rubbio or Dieng back with it.


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

hroz said:


> I think Tristan Thompson is so overrated. He is nothing unique there is 5-10 players like him coming out every year from college.
> 
> But he shares the same manager as LeBron so he wont be traded.


That doesn't make him overrated at all. Right now he's been a very good player for the Cavs and his rebounding has saved them more than enough times. His six offensive rebounds last night is just one example of what he's been doing a lot this season.



Mrs. Thang said:


> I was saying repeatedly over the summer that trading Wiggins was a huge mistake and they should be moving Irving for Love. Irving isn't good. For some reason even the same people calling him a superstar still only considered him the 9th or 10th best point guard in the league. There is a huge disconnect there. Using Irving's salary in that deal might have even allowed them to get a piece like Rubbio or Dieng back with it.


Irving isn't good? If that's the case then how the hell would they be able to pull off trading away him for Love AND getting someone like Rubio or Dieng in the process? For someone who claims he's not good, you sure are making him sound like Lebron in regards to his trade value. He's the only player I can think of that any team would give up Love AND a Rubio or Dieng for (I'd actually say Durant and Davis are two other players that teams would give up these kinds of players for, but you get my point).


----------



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Fairly speaking, Irving is an average starter. Let's say we have 60 starting guards. I rank him somewhere between 25 and 35 per scientific research.

Chris Paul is between 15 and 25.

If this is a proposal: 3 offensive players for 3 defensive players

Love/Irving/Waiters for Green/Klay Thompson/Bogut

I'd say absolutely no.

How about this?

LeBron/Love/Irving for Thompson/Iggy/Green/Bogut


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Ballscientist said:


> Fairly speaking, Irving is an average starter.


Lol



Ballscientist said:


> Love/Irving/Waiters for Green/Klay Thompson/Bogut
> 
> I'd say absolutely no.
> 
> ...












I think even Kerr would laugh at the thought of that trade because of how stupid it is.


----------



## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

Ballscientist said:


> How about this?
> 
> LeBron/Love/Irving for Thompson/Iggy/Green/Bogut


LOL the Cavs are not giving up LeBron for someone who isnt Durant or Davis.

But says the cavs were that stupid 

Curry Livingston
James Irving
Barnes
Love Lee
Ezeli

Yeah I would do that then try trade Irving for a legit centre.


----------



## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

XxIrvingxX said:


> That doesn't make him overrated at all. Right now he's been a very good player for the Cavs and his rebounding has saved them more than enough times. His six offensive rebounds last night is just one example of what he's been doing a lot this season.



You can get hustle players all over the market. But he is being paid as 4th pick and was expected to be an All Star one day. Obviously nobody expects that of him now. But he is just another JJ Hickson, Darrell Arthur etc.

There are alot of them in the league. But he seems to be more highly valued than that.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

Ballscientist said:


> Ballscientist trade proposal:
> 
> Cavs get
> Arron Afflalo
> ...



That would make the Cavs a better team instantly.


----------



## tylerster1 (Jan 3, 2015)

Cavs suck because their defense is terrible. They have 3 superstars Lebron, Kev and Kyrie. They all worry too much about their stats and lack effort and hustle on the end that doesnt show up on the stat sheet. Lebron, the reining runner up for DPOY has apparently taken a backseat on D, while Love and Irving seemingly have never played defense in their entire careers since they are too worried about their O. Lebron needs to be that Defensive Juggernaut since love and irving embrace their roles as finesse players so much. Lebron though seemingly didnt get the memo as he decided to become more of a finesse player himself over the off season dropping all of that weight. David Blatt is compounding the problem by embracing KLoves stretch-four identity over his bump and grind hustle and rebound mentality we all know he has the potential for. And kyrie simply looks for his shot too much. Lebron cannot be the distributor, he needs to score, and defend. Kyrie needs to distribute, and Love needs to be battling down low and not wander the 3point line. The cavs are a perfect example of how much more important team chemistry is over star studded talent.


----------



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

tylerster1 said:


> And kyrie simply looks for his shot too much. Lebron cannot be the distributor, he needs to score, and defend. Kyrie needs to distribute, and Love needs to be battling down low and not wander the 3point line. The cavs are a perfect example of how much more important team chemistry is over star studded talent.


Excellent point!

IMO
LeBron becomes Jordan. Kyrie becomes young Jason Kidd. Kevin becomes Karl Malone.


----------



## Mrs. Thang (Apr 14, 2011)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Irving isn't good? If that's the case then how the hell would they be able to pull off trading away him for Love AND getting someone like Rubio or Dieng in the process?


Because he's talented and teams confuse that for being good all the time.


----------



## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

Nuggets would want more i think.


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Mrs. Thang said:


> Because he's talented and teams confuse that for being good all the time.


No one would give up a Kevin Love ALONG WITH ANOTHER PLAYER for someone who's "good all the time", especially when Love had just got done being fourth in the league in win shares. 





tylerster1 said:


> Cavs suck


Huh? Who said anything about the Cavaliers sucking? They're struggling, but they don't suck. 



tylerster1 said:


> They all worry too much about their stats and lack effort and hustle on the end that doesnt show up on the stat sheet.


Lebron James worrying more about his stats than wins is one of the biggest lies you could possibly tell about him. Anyone who knows what they're talking about knows Lebron could care less about stats. He's flat out stated this numerous times and you can tell he doesn't give a shit about stats just by looking at the way he plays. 



tylerster1 said:


> Lebron, the reining runner up for DPOY has apparently taken a backseat on D, while Love and Irving seemingly have never played defense in their entire careers since they are too worried about their O. Lebron needs to be that Defensive Juggernaut since love and irving embrace their roles as finesse players so much. Lebron though seemingly didnt get the memo as he decided to become more of a finesse player himself over the off season dropping all of that weight.


Lol what?



tylerster1 said:


> Lebron cannot be the distributor, he needs to score, and defend. Kyrie needs to distribute, and Love needs to be battling down low and not wander the 3point line.


Um, no. Irving doesn't need to be the distributor. It would be a lot better if he could pass more, yes, but being the main distributor belongs to Lebron. It's arguably his best asset. And Love should be at the three point line a lot, it's what helps stretch out the offense. But I do think they're overdoing it. 



tylerster1 said:


> The cavs are a perfect example of how much more important team chemistry is over star studded talent.


No they're not, because team chemistry isn't the main issue right now. It was during the first ten games, but since then other problems have circulated that have made things worse for them.


----------



## tylerster1 (Jan 3, 2015)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Huh? Who said anything about the Cavaliers sucking? They're struggling, but they don't suck.


For the talent they acquired in the offseason, they suck..


----------



## tylerster1 (Jan 3, 2015)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Lebron James worrying more about his stats than wins is one of the biggest lies you could possibly tell about him. Anyone who knows what they're talking about knows Lebron could care less about stats. He's flat out stated this numerous times and you can tell he doesn't give a shit about stats just by looking at the way he plays.
> 
> 
> .


What are you talking about. Lebron is probably the biggest offender here. He often checks his stats INGAME. The game where he scored his career high, the Heat was blowing the bobcats the **** out, but he desperately wanted to stay in the game until he broke the heat record. Shit like that is unnecessary and really speaks to the character of a player. He might state that he doesnt care in interviews, but since when is Lebron truthful in interview?? Just a few days ago he was blatantly caught on camera talking to D wade about reuniting, and then he denied it. But saying Leebron is one of those players who doesnt care about stats is absolute bullshit. Real superstars dont need to stay in the game risking getting injured when a team is clearly in the lead.


----------



## tylerster1 (Jan 3, 2015)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Um, no. Irving doesn't need to be the distributor. It would be a lot better if he could pass more, yes, but being the main distributor belongs to Lebron. It's arguably his best asset. And Love should be at the three point line a lot, it's what helps stretch out the offense. But I do think they're overdoing it.


Lebrons best asset is his all around game. He is at his best when he is defending hard, getting out in transition and scoring. I agree his passing is great but I do not think the main distributor should be at the 3. it should be the point. You agree, Irving would benefit the team way better if he could pass. And I dont think love should never shoot threes, the man won a 3 pt competition. But I still think he is at his best down on the block getting offensive rebounds. He wanders the three too often and the possession in effect ends there if there is noone to rebound.


----------



## tylerster1 (Jan 3, 2015)

XxIrvingxX said:


> No they're not, because team chemistry isn't the main issue right now. It was during the first ten games, but since then other problems have circulated that have made things worse for them.


Yes, injuries have taken a toll, but that doesnt mean they are at their full potential in the absolute slightest when they are all on the floor. Not even close. Even with two out of those three stars on a team should be able to lead the East. It is ridiculous to think that the cavs almost wouldn't even make the playoffs in the west right now. I still do think that kyrie and love look for their jumpshot too much, which would be a chemistry issue.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

tylerster1 said:


> What are you talking about. Lebron is probably the biggest offender here. He often checks his stats INGAME. The game where he scored his career high, the Heat was blowing the bobcats the **** out, but he desperately wanted to stay in the game until he broke the heat record. Shit like that is unnecessary and really speaks to the character of a player. He might state that he doesnt care in interviews, but since when is Lebron truthful in interview?? Just a few days ago he was blatantly caught on camera talking to D wade about reuniting, and then he denied it. But saying Leebron is one of those players who doesnt care about stats is absolute bullshit. Real superstars dont need to stay in the game risking getting injured when a team is clearly in the lead.


The talking about reuniting with Wade if things don't get better in Cleveland was sketchy as **** on his part. To follow it up with "Oh, we were uh.... we were talking about after basketball." Then why were you covering your mouth with your jersey?

I don't think he'd ever go back to Miami, but still pretty sketchy shit for him to be doing.


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

tylerster1 said:


> For the talent they acquired in the offseason, they suck..


Not really. Again, injury issues. 



tylerster1 said:


> What are you talking about. Lebron is probably the biggest offender here. He often checks his stats INGAME.


1. No he doesn't.
2. Probably the biggest offender? If that was the case he would take more shots than anyone else in the NBA right now. 



tylerster1 said:


> The game where he scored his career high, the Heat was blowing the bobcats the **** out, but he desperately wanted to stay in the game until he broke the heat record.


What the hell are you talking about? Lebron only wanted to get fifty points. Spoelstra wanted to keep him in, and so he did. Please don't make up obvious bullshit. 



tylerster1 said:


> Shit like that is unnecessary and really speaks to the character of a player. He might state that he doesnt care in interviews, but since when is Lebron truthful in interview?? Just a few days ago he was blatantly caught on camera talking to D wade about reuniting, and then he denied it.


Um, no.

He said it was nothing basketball related, and there was nothing that they where heard talking about that made it perfectly clear it was indeed basketball related. You're making outright lies to fill your agenda. 



tylerster1 said:


> But saying Leebron is one of those players who doesnt care about stats is absolute bullshit.


No, it isn't. If he gave any shits about stats, he would almost be averaging a triple double. 



tylerster1 said:


> Lebrons best asset is his all around game.


...that's not an asset. 



tylerster1 said:


> He is at his best when he is defending hard, getting out in transition and scoring. I agree his passing is great but I do not think the main distributor should be at the 3. it should be the point.


Yes because that's exactly how the Bulls won all of those NBA titles in the 90s.

Oh wait.



tylerster1 said:


> You agree, Irving would benefit the team way better if he could pass. And I dont think love should never shoot threes, the man won a 3 pt competition. But I still think he is at his best down on the block getting offensive rebounds. He wanders the three too often and the possession in effect ends there if there is noone to rebound.


Fair enough.



tylerster1 said:


> Yes, injuries have taken a toll, but that doesnt mean they are at their full potential in the absolute slightest when they are all on the floor. Not even close.


Either you worded that wrong or I suck at reading. None the less, the potential that this team has is definitely impacted by injuries, especially the one to Varejao. 



tylerster1 said:


> Even with two out of those three stars on a team should be able to lead the East. It is ridiculous to think that the cavs almost wouldn't even make the playoffs in the west right now.


1. I'm almost certain the Cavaliers would make the playoffs, but they would be at the lower tier most likely.
2. Why is it ridiculous? Do you realize how unbelievably stacked the west is right now?


----------



## tylerster1 (Jan 3, 2015)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Not really. Again, injury issues.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. No he doesn't.






 lol nuff said


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

I see the closet Lebron haters have come back out of hiding.


----------



## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

@XxIrvingxX if you guys were hanging your hopes on Side Show Bob playing more than 40 games you were betting the hard Over


----------



## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

Ballscientist said:


> Ballscientist trade proposal:
> 
> Cavs get
> Arron Afflalo
> ...


Why would the Nuggets do this, though?


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

tylerster1 said:


> lebron james checking stats sheet against knicks - YouTube lol nuff said


1. You said "often". Players check in game stats every now and then for a large variety of reasons under certain circumstances. One of them is defensive reasons. You on the other hand attempted to make it sound like Lebron was doing it to fill up his stats.
2. Not to mention, again, all you need to do is watch games to realize Lebron could care less about stats. Hell his points per game this season is proof of it, considering how he could easily be averaging 28-30 points per game right now if he wanted to.



e-monk said:


> @XxIrvingxX if you guys were hanging your hopes on Side Show Bob playing more than 40 games you were betting the hard Over


Me personally? I wanted more than just Varejao, because I knew this was going to happen. It was an idiotic move by Cleveland to not at least find some sort of back up plan in case Varejao got injured.


----------



## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

RollWithEm said:


> Why would the Nuggets do this, though?


because Waiters has so much perceived value


----------



## collierm48 (Aug 28, 2014)

They should just stop being lazy and get 12


----------



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

RollWithEm said:


> Why would the Nuggets do this, though?


Save $12 million this year and get young players.


----------



## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

*Pistons Now Have Better Odds to Win Championship Than Cavaliers*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/553577655543820288
http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2015/01/09/pistons-now-have-better-odds-to-win-nba-championship-than-cavaliers/

Couldn't help myself from posting this once I saw the article title


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

kbdullah said:


> *Pistons Now Have Better Odds to Win Championship Than Cavaliers*
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/553577655543820288
> ...


Hollinger is an idiot. I hope Detroit makes it, but having them at 60% while having the Heat at 18.5%, Nets at 33% and Hornets at 21% is probably the dumbest thing I've heard all week. 

In previous threads some dick head would waltz in and be all "Actually R-Star, John Hollinger has an advanced stats matrix that runs on NASA computers, and it clearly shows that this is fact. #AdvancedStats !"

60% ****ing playoff odds and the Heat aren't even 19%. I hate what I have to put up with.


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

R-Star said:


> Hollinger is an idiot. I hope Detroit makes it, but having them at 60% while having the Heat at 18.5%, Nets at 33% and Hornets at 21% is probably the dumbest thing I've heard all week.
> 
> In previous threads some dick head would waltz in and be all "Actually R-Star, John Hollinger has an advanced stats matrix that runs on NASA computers, and it clearly shows that this is fact. #AdvancedStats !"
> 
> 60% ****ing playoff odds and the Heat aren't even 19%. I hate what I have to put up with.


I think the hilarious part is Indiana being higher than the Cavs.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

XxIrvingxX said:


> I think the hilarious part is Indiana being higher than the Cavs.


Indiana is probably going to win it all this year, son.


----------



## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

Welp. 

Coach Blatt says Kevin Love isn't a max player..._yet_


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/554503568795787264


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

kbdullah said:


> Welp.
> 
> Coach Blatt says Kevin Love isn't a max player..._yet_
> 
> ...


Boom goes the dynamite


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

kbdullah said:


> Welp.
> 
> Coach Blatt says Kevin Love isn't a max player..._yet_
> 
> ...


God damn it Blatt.


----------



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

kbdullah said:


> *Pistons Now Have Better Odds to Win Championship Than Cavaliers*


how do you compare dr. Hollinger to e-monk?


----------



## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

ooh! nice troll doc!


----------



## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

Yawn. Blatt clarifies.



> David Blatt attempted to clarify comments he made on Sunday saying Kevin Love is not yet a max contract player.
> 
> "I don't pay a lot of attention to social media but I think my comment was either misunderstood or misconstrued," Blatt said after Cavs practice Monday at Grand Canyon University. "I was simply saying that with our team, he does not have a max contract because we're not allowed to talk to him about anything until after this season is over. That was really where I was going with that. So I think that's very unfortunate the way that that turned out. That's the way of the world sometimes. I guess I got to be clearer in my thoughts."
> 
> ...


http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12157222/david-blatt-clarifies-kevin-love-not-max-player-comment


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Maybe I'm wrong here, but what the hell does he mean they can't talk to him about his next contract until the season is over? Are they not able to give him a contract extension during the season?


----------



## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Blatt is way in over his head. The Cavs team as is isn't really built to win a title, but Blatt compounds all the roster issues.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

bball2223 said:


> Blatt is way in over his head. The Cavs team as is isn't really built to win a title, but Blatt compounds all the roster issues.


It was a stupid hiring to begin with. 

"Hey, we've got his distinguished Euro coach we're going to bring over to coach a completely brand new team with 3 superstar ego's and Dion Waiters."

Someone should have probably spoke up as soon as they heard that. George Karl is still sitting at home doing nothing and the Cavs sign Blatt. 

I've got bad news for David, but the players will turn on him long before they'll turn on each other. They're afraid of public perception. And it's far easier for Lebron to drop subtle hints that this is all Blatt's fault than it is for him to blame it on Love and Irving for playing shitty defense.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

R-Star said:


> It was a stupid hiring to begin with.
> 
> "Hey, we've got his distinguished Euro coach we're going to bring over to coach a completely brand new team with 3 superstar ego's and Dion Waiters."
> 
> ...


On the plus side, Boston's putting together the beginnings of a nice little defensive squad with Marcus Smart, Avery Bradley, and Jae Crowder. If they can snag one of the three-named Kentucky bigs in the draft they might present an attractive (and workable!) landing spot for one of Love or Irving. And, hell, if they don't work it out, the Cleveland pick Boston holds next year will be a bit better than expected.


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

R-Star said:


> It was a stupid hiring to begin with.
> 
> "Hey, we've got his distinguished Euro coach we're going to bring over to coach a completely brand new team with 3 superstar ego's and Dion Waiters."
> 
> ...


They hired Blatt before acquiring LeBron and Love. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been hired had they been on the roster already. You're looking at a completely different list of candidates when you're hiring a coach and have LeBron on your team.


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

R-Star said:


> Maybe I'm wrong here, but what the hell does he mean they can't talk to him about his next contract until the season is over? *Are they not able to give him a contract extension during the season?*


Yep. Apparently you're not allowed to sign players that get traded to your team a new contract until the season is over with.



bball2223 said:


> Blatt is way in over his head. *The Cavs team as is isn't really built to win a title*, but Blatt compounds all the roster issues.


In what regard exactly? Don't necessarily disagree with you, but I'm just curious as to whether or not you and I feel the same way in regards to what the team is missing.


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

This is hilarious.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/1/12/7530969/david-blatt-quotes-kevin-love-cavaliers-line

This is after, not too long ago, Blatt said this: 

http://www.slamonline.com/nba/david-blatt-kevin-love-playing-best-defense-career/


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

XxIrvingxX said:


> In what regard exactly? Don't necessarily disagree with you, but I'm just curious as to whether or not you and I feel the same way in regards to what the team is missing.



Defense.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

The team is missing defense, and being a team. Lots of individual pieces out there that don't actual fulfill any sort of specific role. That's on Blatt imo.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Basel said:


> Defense.


I was actually just referring to the players themselves, like what kind of players they're missing or what position they are weak at.



Hibachi! said:


> The team is missing defense, and being a team. Lots of individual pieces out there that don't actual fulfill any sort of specific role. That's on Blatt imo.


To be fair, I think it's also on the talent as well. Once Lebron got injured, there was a lot more individualized play than there was team play, since he's basically the only one capable of running the offense at an elite level.


----------



## edabomb (Feb 12, 2005)

XxIrvingxX said:


> To be fair, I think it's also on the talent as well. Once Lebron got injured, there was a lot more individualized play than there was team play, since he's basically the only one capable of running the offense at an elite level.


I think how this team looks without LeBron throws up a huge question mark over Irving. A max salary committed to a point guard who can't get an offense gelling...... He is the second best player at running an offense on his own team - seems like that money could be used on other glaring weaknesses on the roster. Any team with LeBron can get away with starting a 3 and D point guard.

Your thoughts?


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

edabomb said:


> I think how this team looks without LeBron throws up a huge question mark over Irving. A max salary committed to a point guard who can't get an offense gelling...... He is the second best player at running an offense on his own team - seems like that money could be used on other glaring weaknesses on the roster. Any team with LeBron can get away with starting a 3 and D point guard.
> 
> Your thoughts?


It's a scary thing to think about because we've already given Irving the max deal. Now lets assume Lebron's not lying in regards to his feelings regarding the Cavs, if that's the case then he's staying in Cleveland until his career is over. Irving's still very young and has a long career ahead of him, but with a Lebron James on his team for a good amount of his career, that could hinder his development in regards to becoming the playmaking point guard that so many people have been wanting him to become. 

This is on top of the fact that through four years in the NBA, the only development I've really seen Irving make is his decision making in regards to shooting, cutting down on turnovers and his ability to steal the ball (and these weren't significant improvements, in fact they where barely noticeable) . That makes me worry that Irving doesn't have much potential to become anything other than what he is right now, an unbelievably talented scorer. It's good that he's gifted in that area but with so many years in his career and so young, if he can't develop into at least a somewhat good playmaker when he's near his prime with good defensive abilities, I would consider him to be somewhat of a disappointment.


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## edabomb (Feb 12, 2005)

XxIrvingxX said:


> It's a scary thing to think about because we've already given Irving the max deal. Now lets assume Lebron's not lying in regards to his feelings regarding the Cavs, if that's the case then he's staying in Cleveland until his career is over. Irving's still very young and has a long career ahead of him, but with a Lebron James on his team for a good amount of his career, that could hinder his development in regards to becoming the playmaking point guard that so many people have been wanting him to become.
> 
> This is on top of the fact that through four years in the NBA, the only development I've really seen Irving make is his decision making in regards to shooting, cutting down on turnovers and his ability to steal the ball (and these weren't significant improvements, in fact they where barely noticeable) . That makes me worry that Irving doesn't have much potential to become anything other than what he is right now, an unbelievably talented scorer. It's good that he's gifted in that area but with so many years in his career and so young, if he can't develop into at least a somewhat good playmaker when he's near his prime with good defensive abilities, I would consider him to be somewhat of a disappointment.


Interesting in terms of tradeable assests that K-Love and Irving will continue to devalue as the Cavs struggle. Such an interesting set of circumstances going into the second half of the season - hopefully they can both step their play up with James back.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

*Last 10 games:

Pistons 9-1

Cavs 1-9*


----------



## Mrs. Thang (Apr 14, 2011)

So who is getting Kevin Love at the deadline? Not many contenders with the necessary salary pieces. Spurs for Diaw/Mills/Anderson package?


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Mrs. Thang said:


> So who is getting Kevin Love at the deadline? Not many contenders with the necessary salary pieces. Spurs for Diaw/Mills/Anderson package?


Cavs aren't trading away Love, at least not this early. You don't just give away someone like him, especially when he wants to stay with your team long term. 

Although I think this might have been a sarcastic post, but idk. 



edabomb said:


> Interesting in terms of tradeable assests that K-Love and Irving will continue to devalue as the Cavs struggle. Such an interesting set of circumstances going into the second half of the season - hopefully they can both step their play up with James back.


I don't think they should ever be considered as trading assets to begin with. Why on earth would you trade them away?


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

Lot of panic for a team one game out of 5th place.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

RollWithEm said:


> Lot of panic for a team one game out of 5th place.


Common sense and logic seem to be out the window when it's regarding the Cavs these days in the reporting world. Some of the things on sports shows that have been said about the Cavs recently have been really stupid.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on...mpson-turned-down-4-year-52-million-extension



> Tristan Thompson, who is represented by LeBron James' agent, Rich Paul, chose not to accept a four-year, $52 million extension proposed by the Cleveland Cavaliers before the Oct. 31 deadline, according to Yahoo Sports' Adrian Wojnarowski:


Shiiiitttttt. Guess I was wrong about Thompson in regards to accepting less to stay. Cavs have to find a way to keep Thompson. Losing him would be a huge blow to future plans.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. $13 million a year for Tristan Thompson. He turned it down!

I'm loving this.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

He bet on himself and lost.


----------



## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Basel said:


> He bet on himself and lost.


I'm pretty sure he knows he has the nuts and those nuts are Rich Paul and LeBron James. He's going to bilk that team into luxury tax hell and it's gonna be beautiful.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

I wouldn't be shocked if Thompson was traded for a backup big and a late first, or something along those lines, to re-stock Cleveland's trade cabinet a bit. I mean, you don't want to be paying him _and_ Andy V eight figures each to come off the bench next year.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

He can share Lebrons agent all he wants, but Lebron isn't going to want Thompson to eat up 13 mil a year. James will be fine with him being gone if he's turning down offers like that. Hell, he'll probably even try to back door the guy himself with Gilbert.


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## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

Adam said:


> I'm pretty sure he knows he has the nuts and those nuts are Rich Paul and LeBron James. He's going to bilk that team into luxury tax hell and it's gonna be beautiful.


The Cavs front office are really blowing this. They have made some very bad moves (Love) and its not getting any better for them. Thompson knows exactly what he's doing and it will work, lmao.....

Did they sit Love for the entire 4th qtr vs the Kings?


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Pablo5 said:


> The Cavs front office are really blowing this. They have made some very bad moves (Love) and its not getting any better for them. Thompson knows exactly what he's doing and it will work, lmao.....
> 
> Did they sit Love for the entire 4th qtr vs the Kings?


Getting Love wasn't a bad move at all. And what do you mean it's not getting any better? They just got Shumpert, Smith, and Mozgov off of trades, all they really gave up was Waiters (who improved but wasn't helping the Cavs situation to the least bit) and both Shumpert and Mozgov bring what the Cavs have been sorely missing. Cavs are in a bad stretch right now but to say things haven't gotten better for them in regards to their roster situation is stupid.

And no, wrong team. They sat him for the whole fourth quarter vs the Suns.



Bogg said:


> I wouldn't be shocked if Thompson was traded for a backup big and a late first, or something along those lines, to re-stock Cleveland's trade cabinet a bit. I mean, you don't want to be paying him _and_ Andy V eight figures each to come off the bench next year.


This is what they should do imo, but odds are they won't. Who are they going to trade him for? He has a lot of value, so I don't see them giving him up if they won't get much back for him. With that said, there's no way they're going to offer Thompson anymore than 13 mill so if he's with the Cavs in the future he's not getting 8 figures.

I just can't believe he turned down 13 million to be on a team like this. He seriously thinks he's worth more than that?


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

RollWithEm said:


> Lot of panic for a team one game out of 5th place.


They'll make the playoffs and they are a threat to any team in the league due to their offensive talent alone. But to act like no one should be questioning a sub 500 team whom many thought would be a top title contender is a little off. 

Something is obviously not working with that team, and they need ot make some changes. They may be one game out of 5th, but they're also 4 out of 9th, and are 1-9 in their last 10 games. 

Let's not pretend there isn't an issue.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

R-Star said:


> They'll make the playoffs and they are a threat to any team in the league due to their offensive talent alone. But to act like no one should be questioning a sub 500 team whom many thought would be a top title contender is a little off.
> 
> Something is obviously not working with that team, and they need ot make some changes. They may be one game out of 5th, but they're also 4 out of 9th, and are 1-9 in their last 10 games.
> 
> *Let's not pretend there isn't an issue.*


There honestly isn't. Cavs where doing great before Varejao got injured and all went to hell. Before that they where beating some of the best teams in the east. At that time, they WHERE looking like a top title contender. Now in Lebron's first game back, the Cavs kept it close against a very good Phoenix Suns team on the road. We need to see how Cavs can do with their team fully healthy and playing with a consistent line up for a few months before making these kind of judgments. 

And if there truly is an issue, then fine, but people are making a much bigger deal out of it than they should. People keep comparing the Cavs right now to the Heat when they reached this point of the season and fail to realize that their circumstances where very different from what the Cavs have right now.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

XxIrvingxX said:


> There honestly isn't. Cavs where doing great before Varejao got injured and all went to hell. Before that they where beating some of the best teams in the east. At that time, they WHERE looking like a top title contender. Now in Lebron's first game back, the Cavs kept it close against a very good Phoenix Suns team on the road. We need to see how Cavs can do with their team fully healthy and playing with a consistent line up for a few months before making these kind of judgments.
> 
> And if there truly is an issue, then fine, but people are making a much bigger deal out of it than they should. People keep comparing the Cavs right now to the Heat when they reached this point of the season and fail to realize that their circumstances where very different from what the Cavs have right now.


If your team relies on Anderson Varejao having to be healthy for you to contend, then you have serious serious issues.


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## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Getting Love wasn't a bad move at all. And what do you mean it's not getting any better? They just got Shumpert, Smith, and Mozgov off of trades, all they really gave up was Waiters (who improved but wasn't helping the Cavs situation to the least bit) and both Shumpert and Mozgov bring what the Cavs have been sorely missing. Cavs are in a bad stretch right now but to say things haven't gotten better for them in regards to their roster situation is stupid.
> 
> And no, wrong team. They sat him for the whole fourth quarter vs the Suns.
> 
> ...


He turned it down because he knows the Cavs will be hard pressed to resign Love. Love isnt a max player and this year is exposing him in a bad way..


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

XxIrvingxX said:


> *There honestly isn't.* Cavs where doing great before Varejao got injured and all went to hell. Before that they where beating some of the best teams in the east. At that time, they WHERE looking like a top title contender. Now in Lebron's first game back, the Cavs kept it close against a very good Phoenix Suns team on the road. We need to see how Cavs can do with their team fully healthy and playing with a consistent line up for a few months before making these kind of judgments.
> 
> And if there truly is an issue, then fine, but people are making a much bigger deal out of it than they should. People keep comparing the Cavs right now to the Heat when they reached this point of the season and fail to realize that their circumstances where very different from what the Cavs have right now.


Stop it, bro. One thing is thinking the Cavs will turn it around (wich they will). Other is pretending it ain't absolutely puzzling the Cavs' sporting a 19-20 record this late in the season. Playing in the East.

It there wasn't a problem, the Cavs wouldn't be making mid-season trades, mainly bringing up defenders. Hint: there's only ONE player in the Cavs roster that averages at least a block a game. He has played 3 games so far. 

The Cavs have too much talent. They will be in the ECF. That's why it's so surprising to see them at under .500 right now.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

I'm still laughing about this Kevin Love stuff. Yeah, I think it may be time to hit the archives because some of yall bought into him.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> I'm still laughing about this Kevin Love stuff. Yeah, I think it may be time to hit the archives because some of yall bought into him.


In my defense I changed my opinion of Love prior to last season, so bear that in mind when laughing at my "Love can't do it alone!" posts from a few years back.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

Maybe this isn't about the 13 mil -- I find it unrealistic ANYbody in this league is going to pay him more than that.

Perhaps he just doesn't want to spend the Prime of his career coming off the bench?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

If he wants to sign for a reasonable price it would be nice to see him in TO. He fits their lunch pail mentality.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

MemphisX said:


> I'm still laughing about this Kevin Love stuff. Yeah, I think it may be time to hit the archives because some of yall bought into him.


We went through this with Chris Bosh too. I wouldn't go too nuts - there are a lot of ills that could be solved by trading Kyrie Irving for the right set of good supporting-cast guys.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Bogg said:


> We went through this with Chris Bosh too. I wouldn't go too nuts - there are a lot of ills that could be solved by trading Kyrie Irving for the right set of good supporting-cast guys.


Kevin Love is clearly a max player. I don't think his lack of defense is overblown though.


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## edabomb (Feb 12, 2005)

XxIrvingxX said:


> I don't think they should ever be considered as trading assets to begin with. Why on earth would you trade them away?


I think both will become very tradeable early next season if the Cavs are still struggling - not this season though. Assuming Love comes back of course. With the lack of cap space for the Cavs it is probably the only option they have in making a drastic change.

But if they are coming off an underachieving team it's going to be hard to get value in return.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

R-Star said:


> Kevin Love is clearly a max player.* I don't think his lack of defense is overblown though*.


That much was true, and it was always true (and most people acknowledged it at the time). This Cavs team is a bit of a mishmash of players that don't compliment each other and guys that were good three years ago, and it was just sort of assumed that if you threw enough talent on the floor Lebron would make it work somehow. However, it's looking like carrying Miami for 2-3 years really took it's toll on Lebron and he might be human after all. If that's the case, actual fit on the court is going to be more important than who's friends with who and who shares an agent with Lebron, and if you put the right mix of 3-and-D guards and rim-protecting bigs around Lebron and Love I think you still have a contender on your hands (at the very minimum a threat to get out of the East), so I wouldn't start throwing dirt on "Kevin Love, all-star" just yet. As much of a mistake as a big extension for Andy V was (how many years in a row has he been injured after a few months of good games?), there's a _lot_ of trade value sitting in Kyrie Irving, and I expect you could get a pretty decent return for Thompson as well.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I think the Cavs will do much better when Shumpert is able to play. They have been playing without a shooting guard for much of the season. They tried to start Waiters in the beginning of the year and when that didn't work they went through their thin rotation of wings with guys like Marion, Mike Miller, and even Joe Harris. With a healthy Shumpert and JR Smith their wing situation is at least passable. If Mozgov can do a well enough job protecting the paint I think the Cavs will at least get out of 1st round if not make the ECF with the current roster. I still think giving Varejao close to 10 mil a year given his injury history was a bad idea and it's going to handcuff the Cavs salary wise when they try to improve the roster this offseason.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

seifer0406 said:


> I think the Cavs will do much better when Shumpert is able to play. They have been playing without a shooting guard for much of the season. They tried to start Waiters in the beginning of the year and when that didn't work they went through their thin rotation of wings with guys like Marion, Mike Miller, and even Joe Harris. With a healthy Shumpert and JR Smith their wing situation is at least passable. *If Mozgov can do a well enough job protecting the paint I think the Cavs will at least get out of 1st round if not make the ECF with the current roster.* I still think giving Varejao close to 10 mil a year given his injury history was a bad idea and it's going to handcuff the Cavs salary wise when they try to improve the roster this offseason.


I think you're underrating the Cavs in terms of how good they could be if Mozgov provides decent rim protection and there aren't any injuries if you think them getting out of the first round is something they will "at least" do. Keep in mind, when they where healthy, they blew out the Wizards and Raptors...on the road.



PauloCatarino said:


> Stop it, bro. One thing is thinking the Cavs will turn it around (wich they will). Other is pretending it ain't absolutely puzzling the Cavs' sporting a 19-20 record this late in the season. Playing in the East.


It's not puzzling at all that their record is like that if you paid any attention to what has been going on with the team. Not to mention many of those losses have come against teams from the west so them playing in the east isn't really relevant.



edabomb said:


> I think both will become very tradeable early next season if the Cavs are still struggling - not this season though. Assuming Love comes back of course. With the lack of cap space for the Cavs it is probably the only option they have in making a drastic change.
> 
> But if they are coming off an underachieving team it's going to be hard to get value in return.


But why on earth would you want to trade Irving when he's such a young player and already so good? If you have the best player in the world, and he's going to stay that way for at least the next three or four years before Durant takes that crown from him, you've gotta have Irving learn off of him. Lebron has two huge parts of his game that Irving's lacking, running an offense and playing defense at an elite level. I wouldn't trade away Irving after one and a half season. 



R-Star said:


> If your team relies on Anderson Varejao having to be healthy for you to contend, then you have serious serious issues.


Actually, I think if that's the case then you have a moron running the part of the team that handles that. It was an idiotic call on their part to rely on Varejao to be healthy for them. I still can't believe they actually stopped trying to trade for centers to play back up or start at center. Unbelievably horrible call on their part.



MemphisX said:


> I'm still laughing about this Kevin Love stuff. Yeah, I think it may be time to hit the archives because some of yall bought into him.


Dude, we get it, you think Love's overrated. But apart from your whoreshit argument that he was a stat padder when he clearly wasn't, you haven't provided one logical reason to back up your claim regarding Love not being as good as we all think. Either give an actual argument or shut the **** up. You're contributing about as much as Pablo does at this point.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

XxIrvingxX said:


> It's not puzzling at all that their record is like that if you paid any attention to what has been going on with the team. Not to mention many of those losses have come against teams from the west so them playing in the east isn't really relevant.


Dude, you crazy?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

XxIrvingxX said:


> I think you're underrating the Cavs in terms of how good they could be if Mozgov provides decent rim protection and there aren't any injuries if you think them getting out of the first round is something they will "at least" do. Keep in mind, when they where healthy, they blew out the Wizards and Raptors...on the road.


I don't think I'm underrating the Cavs at all. If the Cavs end up with a lower seed, they'll either play the Bulls/Hawks/Raptors/Wizards in the first round. I don't see any of these 4 teams as pushovers, in fact, I would take the Hawks and Bulls over the Cavs with the other 2 being 50/50. The Raptors at full strength blew out the Cavs in Cleveland by almost 20 points. So getting out of the first round is no small feat in my opinion. In the 2nd round unless Derrick Rose gets injured it's easy work for the Bulls if they play Cleveland. I don't see the trio of Mozgov/Love/Thompson being any match for the Bulls Noah/Gasol/Gibson. Even if Rose is out I think the series would still be 50/50.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

seifer0406 said:


> I don't think I'm underrating the Cavs at all. If the Cavs end up with a lower seed, they'll either play the Bulls/Hawks/Raptors/Wizards in the first round. I don't see any of these 4 teams as pushovers, in fact, I would take the Hawks and Bulls over the Cavs with the other 2 being 50/50. The Raptors at full strength blew out the Cavs in Cleveland by almost 20 points. So getting out of the first round is no small feat in my opinion. In the 2nd round unless Derrick Rose gets injured it's easy work for the Bulls if they play Cleveland. *I don't see the trio of Mozgov/Love/Thompson being any match for the Bulls Noah/Gasol/Gibson. Even if Rose is out I think the series would still be 50/50.*


What's funny about this is that Thompson alone was able to have his way against that trio. They had no answer for him, he just kept getting rebound after rebound against them.



PauloCatarino said:


> Dude, you crazy?


So you honestly can't understand why a team (keep in mind already is short on defensive minded players) is struggling after having lost their only legitimate center with actual playing time, went through injury problems involving their three best players and one of their other most important defensive players during the toughest stretch of games they have on their schedule, and is basically a brand new team with a coach who's never coached an NBA game before this season before? Really? It's made even more simple by the fact that, before the Varejao injury, the Cavs won 8 straight and almost beat a good OKC team without Lebron James in that game. And you're honestly surprised by this?


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

XxIrvingxX said:


> What's funny about this is that Thompson alone was able to have his way against that trio. They had no answer for him, he just kept getting rebound after rebound against them.


What's funny about this is that you're projecting playoff production based on a not all that meaningful regular season game.

Not worthwhile to argue, though.


----------



## edabomb (Feb 12, 2005)

XxIrvingxX said:


> But why on earth would you want to trade Irving when he's such a young player and already so good? If you have the best player in the world, and he's going to stay that way for at least the next three or four years before Durant takes that crown from him, you've gotta have Irving learn off of him. Lebron has two huge parts of his game that Irving's lacking, running an offense and playing defense at an elite level. I wouldn't trade away Irving after one and a half season.


Depends on how highly they rate Irving (obviously highly to give him the max) - so you are probably correct that he is off the trade block going forward.

If they want to go Championship or bust in the last couple years of LeBrons prime it makes sense to surround him with more experienced players though. This is the approach I would take if the struggles continue. OKC are the hallmark team that is always planning for next season and not the one they are in - Cleveland could become the same.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

XxIrvingxX said:


> What's funny about this is that Thompson alone was able to have his way against that trio. They had no answer for him, he just kept getting rebound after rebound against them.


You're basing this on one game and ignoring the Bulls trio's production for the entire season and the fact that the Cavs interior defense being one of their major weaknesses.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

King Joseus said:


> *What's funny about this is that you're projecting playoff production* based on a not all that meaningful regular season game.
> 
> Not worthwhile to argue, though.


No I'm not. I'm pointing out something that happened and claiming it's funny. What's funny is that you're making an awful lot of assumptions right now Joseus which is something you normally don't do. 



seifer0406 said:


> You're basing this on one game and ignoring the Bulls trio's production for the entire season and the fact that the Cavs interior defense being one of their major weaknesses.


Again, I'm not saying at all that this is something that is going to happen when they meet again. I'm just pointing out that this is what happened the first time they met. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that you guys.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

seifer0406 said:


> You're basing this on one game and ignoring the Bulls trio's production for the entire season and the fact that the Cavs interior defense being one of their major weaknesses.



he's a Cleveland sloppy ask him this after Cleveland get bounced in the second round and LBJ leaves


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

There are people on the radio stations here in Cleveland who keep saying David Blatt needs to go. Can someone please give me a justifiable reason for why Blatt needs to leave because I'm not seeing it.



Pablo5 said:


> he's a Cleveland sloppy ask him this after Cleveland in the second round and LBJ leaves


Go be a terrible poster somewhere else please.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

XxIrvingxX said:


> No I'm not. I'm pointing out something that happened and claiming it's funny. What's funny is that you're making an awful lot of assumptions right now Joseus which is something you normally don't do.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I'm not saying at all that this is something that is going to happen when they meet again. I'm just pointing out that this is what happened the first time they met. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that you guys.


I don't see what's funny about pointing out one game vs. an entire season of work. If you're not in the business of predicting future outcome of games then whatever you're saying about playoff matchups is irrelevant since it hasn't happened yet. I don't know why you responded to my post in the first place since I was pointing out that the Cavs would have problems handling the Bulls front court if they meet in the playoffs.


----------



## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

I saw Nate Robinson block Yao Ming this one time and therefore I can deduce that.....

nah


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

The Pacers have no answers for Mo Williams.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

….


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## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

XxIrvingxX said:


> There are people on the radio stations here in Cleveland who keep saying David Blatt needs to go. Can someone please give me a justifiable reason for why Blatt needs to leave because I'm not seeing it.
> 
> 
> 
> Go be a terrible poster somewhere else please.


you can't accept the truth….

KI and Bron will never coexist…..


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## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

seifer0406 said:


> The Pacers have no answers for Mo Williams.



52 damn MOMO


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Pablo5 said:


> you can't accept the truth….
> 
> KI and Bron will never coexist…..


They're coexisting right now you clueless tard. Why is it that everything you post is obnoxiously stupid? Again, go be a terrible poster somewhere else. You make me look like ****ing Hyperion with your posts. Jesus.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

:|


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

@XxIrvingxX is not only clueless (as usual), but flat out in denial. It's reasonable to think the Cavs will figure things out and be a tough out come playoff time, but to say they have no problems right now is absurd.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

hobojoe said:


> @XxIrvingxX is not only clueless (as usual), but flat out in denial. It's reasonable to think the Cavs will figure things out and be a tough out come playoff time, but to say they have no problems right now is absurd.


I'm sure I'm walking into another pointless debate with you but when did I ever say the Cavs have no problems right now?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

I think I'm just going to stay out of the multiple Cavs threads we have now for a while.

This is pure ****ing nonsense.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

XxIrvingxX said:


> I'm sure I'm walking into another pointless debate with you but when did I ever say the Cavs have no problems right now?


R-Star said, "Let's not pretend there's not an issue," and you responded with, "There honestly isn't." You're so you Irving.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Lebron attracts multiple threads


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

XxIrvingxX said:


> I'm sure I'm walking into another pointless debate with you but when did I ever say the Cavs have no problems right now?





Adam said:


> R-Star said, "Let's not pretend there's not an issue," and you responded with, "There honestly isn't." You're so you Irving.


You type so much nonsense you can't even keep track of it all.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Adam said:


> R-Star said, "Let's not pretend there's not an issue," and you responded with, "There honestly isn't." You're so you Irving.





hobojoe said:


> You type so much nonsense you can't even keep track of it all.


Um, no.

What you said: To say they have no problems right now (you claim I said this).

What I said in that post: There honestly isn't. This was a reference to R Star claiming the Cavs being at the record they're at right now isn't an issue, which it isn't. It proves absolutely nothing because they went through the hardest part of their schedule with key players injured for a good amount of it. Doesn't mean the Cavs don't have problems in regards to the way they're playing. Hell in that very same post I point out a few things I felt where problematic in regards to the Cavs current roster situation.

So, again, I ask, when did I say they had no problems? I'm waiting.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Everyone quit saying my name. I said I was leaving this thread.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Add this thread to your highlight reel, Irving. Never change.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

R-Star said:


> Everyone quit saying my name. I said I was leaving this thread.


You know you ain't quitting. It's stronger than you.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

hobojoe said:


> Add this thread to your highlight reel, Irving. Never change.


This has to be one of the worst cop outs I've ever seen from you.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Irving has really rejuvenated BBF.


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