# Better draft: Toronto or Orlando?



## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

http://www.draftdaily.com/newsmanager/anmviewer.asp?a=407&z=3

According to Draft Daily...

*Orlando:* B+
*Toronto:* D+

*Orlando picked up...*

#11 - Fran Vazquez
#38 - Travis Deiner
#57 - Marcin Gortat

*Toronto picked up...*

#7 - Charlie Villanueva
#16 - Joey Graham
#41 - Roko Ukic
#58 - Uros Slokar

Who had the better draft?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Why do people think Orlando had a bad draft?

They did a good job picking for Cleveland. And Vazquez was probably the best big man after Bogut. LA missed the boat big time by not drafting him. He would have been just what the doctor ordered for the Lakers next season. Though Bynum will be interesting to watch develop.

And then you have Diener, who reminds one of a Scott Skiles type with his fire, control, and shooting. He and Nelson will be a fantastic point guard combo.

I don't know anything about the other guy they drafted.

But just getting Vazquez is going to be awesome. He and Howard are going to be a nasty frontline for years to come.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

Where Mock Drafts had Villanueva and Vazquez going...

*NBADraft.net...*

Villanueva: 11th
Vazquez: 17th

*DraftExpress.com...*

Villanueva: 18th
Vazquez: 22nd


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> Where Mock Drafts had Villanueva and Vazquez going...
> 
> *NBADraft.net...*
> 
> ...



And Vazquez did go after Villanueva. I think he'll be a better player at any rate. If for no other reason than Charlie is an ugly sonova*****


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Orlando. Toronto's draft is a disgrace.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Marvin Williams Jr. is just trying to make himself feel better that a team had a worse draft than Toronto.....

With 4 picks in good position, they should have done much better....Orlando did good with having only 2 picks, but they should have kept Martynas.


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## Chris Bosh #4 (Feb 18, 2005)

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Toronto had a far from worst type of draft.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

AJ Prus said:


> Marvin Williams Jr. is just trying to make himself feel better that a team had a worse draft than Toronto.....
> 
> With 4 picks in good position, they should have done much better....Orlando did good with having only 2 picks, but they should have kept Martynas.


No, this comes after a pathetic grading of the draft by Adam Miller and his website.

Toronto receives a failing grade where Orlando receives an excellent one.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> No, this comes after a pathetic grading of the draft by Adam Miller and his website.
> 
> Toronto receives a failing grade where Orlando receives an excellent one.


Just because Adam Miller wrote it doesn't make it right...I gave Toronto a better grade than Orlando, and a lot of other people did too....it is just his opinion, you have to decide for yourself.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

AJ Prus said:


> Just because Adam Miller wrote it doesn't make it right...I gave Toronto a better grade than Orlando, and a lot of other people did too....it is just his opinion, you have to decide for yourself.


Pointing out his lack of knowledge.

Rather, ignorance.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

For all of you that voted Toronto, can you explain what was so upsetting about Orlando's draft for you.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> For all of you that voted Toronto, can you explain what was so upsetting about Orlando's draft for you.


It's not as good as Toronto's?


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## MangoMangoMango (Jan 23, 2004)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> It's not as good as Toronto's?


exactly


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## rapsfan4life (Apr 10, 2004)

Basically any way you slice it, the raps got better talent and all guys Sam Mitchell seems to love and that love the city unlike Green who was overjoyed to not be going to Canada and Granger's knee was reportedly tested as a big concern during his toronto physical. There is a reason 16-18 teams passed on these guys folks. WAKE UP. 

Why Toronto better than Orlando. They addressed 3 needs and got the way better talent. Did toronto hit a home run, probably far from it, but its at least a double.


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## CLUTCH#41 (Mar 22, 2005)

Toronto had the better draft even though they took Villanueva way too early.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

Villanueva > Vazquez
Graham > Diener
Ukic > Gortat

And that Raptors get Slokar, although that doesn't add much.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Moral of the story...Toronto got extremley lucky that Graham and Ukic fell to them...if not, Babcock would probably be out of a job right now for the Villanueva pick...


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

AJ Prus said:


> Moral of the story...Toronto got extremley lucky that Graham and Ukic fell to them...if not, Babcock would probably be out of a job right now for the Villanueva pick...


I agree that Babcock got lucky with Ukic, replace Ukic with somebody else and he's in trouble.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

Pacers Fan said:


> Villanueva > Vazquez
> Graham > Diener
> Ukic > Gortat
> 
> And that Raptors get Slokar, although that doesn't add much.


Villanueva > Vazquez
Graham > Deiner + 3
Ukic > Gortat + 3
Slokar > Nothing

Outcome: Toronto beats out Orlando.


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## onecooljew (Apr 24, 2003)

AJ Prus said:


> Babcock would probably be out of a job right now for the Villanueva pick...


Coulda. Woulda. Shoulda.

Yes Babcock reached with the CV3 pick. But he stole Graham and Ukic. Theres no if's and's or but's about it. The Raps did not have a great draft, but they did technically fill all of their needs.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Pacers Fan said:


> Villanueva > Vazquez
> Graham > Diener
> Ukic > Gortat


you can't really compare like that though. the 7th pick is supposed to be better than the 11th. same with the 16th pick and a 2nd rounder. the raptors had better picks, so they better have gotten better players. this isn't about who came away with the better players, it's about who did the most with the picks they had and filled their needs.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

rocketeer said:


> you can't really compare like that though. the 7th pick is supposed to be better than the 11th. same with the 16th pick and a 2nd rounder. the raptors had better picks, so they better have gotten better players. this isn't about who came away with the better players, it's about who did the most with the picks they had and filled their needs.


Since the Raptors had better and more picks, they did have a better draft. If you want to compare it by value at the pick, I see it like this:

Villanueva < Vazquez
Graham > Diener
Ukic > Gortat


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

The Raptors ended up with three guys that have lottery level talent, and just because they took Charlie too early doesn't change that fact. If they knew exactly how it would play out, I think I personally would have drafted Bynum, Granger, and Ukic. With the immediate impact of Villanueva (plus he's definitely got a ton of talent), the immediate defensive impact of Graham, and Ukic, they will be better next year with these picks than they could have been in my best case scenario for the future of the Raptors.

Orlando's draft wasn't bad either, I'm not willing to crap all over Vazquez just because he's foreign and outside my narrow area of expertise like all of the ESPN talking heads, including Kornheiser who I normally like.


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## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

Toronto actually had a pretty good draft. Villanueva was an asinine pick but they saved face by making two fantastic picks. You can say that Toronto got lucky when certain guys fell to them, but Orlando had Green, Granger, May, etc. fall to them at 11 and they still took Vazquez. At 38 they took a guy who doesn't bring anything to the table that Nelson doesn't already while passing on Ukic, Taft, and others. They gave away Marty too. It was a horrible draft until these guys prove otherwise.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Pacers Fan said:


> Since the Raptors had better and more picks, they did have a better draft. If you want to compare it by value at the pick, I see it like this:
> 
> Villanueva < Vazquez
> Graham > Diener
> Ukic > Gortat


when comparing who had the better draft, when you compare a team with a high 1st, mid 1st, and mid 2nd against a team with a mid 1st, high 2nd, and low 2nd, it's not very hard to decide who had the better draft. the only way to compare who drafted better would be by the value they got at their picks.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

Value?

Well, if Villanueva > Vazquez, then the value is also in favour of the Raptors since between the two picks, these guys were drafted...

Frye
Diogu
Bynum

And I don't think any of those 3 are better than Villanueva. Potential-wise, maybe Bynum.

It's the same because at 11 Orlando passed on Wright, Granger, and Green as well.


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

LOL @ Poll results


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## Helter Skelter (Jun 27, 2005)

Well , I live in the same country that Fran Vazquez . I have been seen him all the year and I know him perfectly . 

So I don't understand why does Orlando pick Fran Vazquez ?

Maybe , Orlando management was drinking at the time to pick .

Maybe Orlando management have some vision problems .

Fran Vazquez is not valid to play in the woman basketball Association .

He haven't got any shot . He can catch rebounds and he seems to be a very nice man , but doesn't seem to be very intelligent . I think it's cost him three years to say hello in English . :banana: 

So I don't know anything about Toronto pick , but it's impossible that would be worse than Orlando did .


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> Villanueva > Vazquez
> Graham > Deiner + 3
> Ukic > Gortat + 3
> Slokar > Nothing
> ...



Those are all complete guesses. Except Graham over Deiner, but that is a nothing comparison since they are completely different players, positions, and team needs as far as why they were drafted.

Toronto should obviously have a better draft, they had better picks to work with.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Helter Skelter said:


> Well , I live in the same country that Fran Vazquez . I have been seen him all the year and I know him perfectly .
> 
> So I don't understand why does Orlando pick Fran Vazquez ?
> 
> ...


I don't necessarily agree with it, but this is one of the funnier posts I've read in a while. Love thy neighbour!


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

JNice said:


> Toronto should obviously have a better draft, they had better picks to work with.


I think you can have worse picks than another team but still have a better draft, don't you?

In this case I think Toronto had a better draft, but only time will tell. Vasquez and Howard could be a good tandem in the future.

I don't know why Orlando didn't go after a shooting/slashing swingman, but maybe they have something on the table with Francis. Hopefully they do. They should be looking to trade that guy ASAP if they want to build around Howard. Like we saw with Yao, Francis isn't the guy you want dominating the ball when you have a big man that needs attention.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I love the Diener pick (and Nelson is not a PG, he's a gunner). My question is, does Orlando even have a GM? I don't know what they're doing or why Howard is playing in summer league.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

I just thought the Raptors reached a little to much for my taste. I am a fan of Orlando's draft because #11 - Fran Vazquez could become a very solid nba player and 
#38 - Travis Deiner should be able to become a good PG in the league.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

HKF said:


> I love the Diener pick (and Nelson is not a PG, he's a gunner). My question is, does Orlando even have a GM? I don't know what they're doing or why Howard is playing in summer league.



1. Nelson is more than just a gunner - bad generalization

2. Diener is nice, but even if he does make the team, he is a long ways away from regular minutes

3. Orlando now has Co-GMs - Otis Smith and Dave Twardzik (something like that)

4. IMO they are trying to continue to develop chemistry between Nelson and Howard. Since when do we all worry so much about 19 yr olds playing basketball games? It's not like he wouldn't be playing somewhere else anyway. Now if he were playing games against Danny Fortson, then I'd be worried.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

JNice said:


> 1. Nelson is more than just a gunner - bad generalization


Just not a fan of his. He sure is gunning in summer league. He is a shoot first PG (who's 5'11). I expect as his career goes on, he will be only shooting more. The Stoudamire comparisons are interesting, because he really does have the same kind of mindset as Damon ("I want to start"). 



> 2. Diener is nice, but even if he does make the team, he is a long ways away from regular minutes


Didn't say he didn't, but he's a a terrific role player. Shoots the 3 at a high percentage, understands his role, can/will actually feed the post. He understands how to play with great talent (he played with Wade for two years).



> 3. Orlando now has Co-GMs - Otis Smith and Dave Twardzik (something like that)


Twardzik huh? Hmmm... I remember him, but I'm drawing a blank what team he worked for before. I'll have to check his background.



> 4. IMO they are trying to continue to develop chemistry between Nelson and Howard. Since when do we all worry so much about 19 yr olds playing basketball games? It's not like he wouldn't be playing somewhere else anyway. Now if he were playing games against Danny Fortson, then I'd be worried.


That's all well and good, but the games are meaningless and Dwight has proven he can handle himself against pros. Playing in these games (he's already proven he's better than everyone here) doesn't make much sense. There is a reason why Okafor and Gordon aren't playing summer league and that's because they've proved to be high level pros as rookies. So has Howard. He better not get hurt, because it seems Vegas is a foul fest.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

HKF said:


> Just not a fan of his. He sure is gunning in summer league. He is a shoot first PG (who's 5'11). I expect as his career goes on, he will be only shooting more. The Stoudamire comparisons are interesting, because he really does have the same kind of mindset as Damon ("I want to start").


I don't see anything wrong with him saying he wants to start. Would you rather it be someone like Tyronne Lue who admits during the season he probably shouldn't be starting? He played very well when he started last season. He earned the right to say he wants to start.

He is by no means a pure PG, like a Kidd or a Nash .. then again, how many of them are there? Francis is a pure shoot first PG. Nelson isn't. Nelson is a little in-between the two ends. But as a starter, he also defended well and rebounded surprisingly well also.



> Didn't say he didn't, but he's a a terrific role player. Shoots the 3 at a high percentage, understands his role, can/will actually feed the post. He understands how to play with great talent (he played with Wade for two years).


I agree but the context in which you mentioned Nelson with Diener made it seem like you were hinting Diener making Nelson irrelevant.



> Twardzik huh? Hmmm... I remember him, but I'm drawing a blank what team he worked for before. I'll have to check his background.


Maybe GS? I don't remember exactly, but I don't think his track record is all that outstanding.



> That's all well and good, but the games are meaningless and Dwight has proven he can handle himself against pros. Playing in these games (he's already proven he's better than everyone here) doesn't make much sense. There is a reason why Okafor and Gordon aren't playing summer league and that's because they've proved to be high level pros as rookies. So has Howard. He better not get hurt, because it seems Vegas is a foul fest.


I don't think he is going to be playing any more games. They said he'd be playing 2-3 games then going to play in a charity game (I think Magic's game) and will also be heading to the ESPY's.


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## DH12 (Jun 22, 2005)

Yes Twardzik has a horrible track record and was with the Warriors. 

Anyhow, I hated the Magic's draft (still do) but it was better than Toronto. Comparing the players to one another is ridiculous. Toronto had a worse draft because they didn't do as much with the picks they had as the Magic did.


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## WhoDaBest23 (Apr 16, 2003)

I don't really like either of the teams' drafts too much. I have seen Villanueva and Graham play recently though. Villanueva was very impressive and was a really nice guy when I met him, but I dunno how he and Graham will both fit into Toronto. I was surprised Toronto picked Villanueva at 7 and the same goes for Orlando picking Vasquez. Diener was a good pickup in the 2nd round though. Villanueva was a reach and I think Orlando should've picked up a swingman.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

I am still up in the air with Toronto's picks, but when the draft came to Orlando's first pick I thought they really lucked out, getting to choose any of the top wings that they so desired

So either, the wings were overhyped in this draft, or Orlando made a big mistake by not taking Wright, Graham, Granger or Green...unlike many people on BBB.net, I cannot see into the future, so I'll have to wait and see before I pass judgement

Toronto is an easy target for criticism, & Babcock is going to be ridiculed no matter what he does, so the Villaneuva pick provided great fodder. While I am not thrilled with him at #7, I don't think the 4 preceeding bigs (Frye, Diogu, Bynum, Vasquez) would have been better picks for Toronto.


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## LeBrosh06 (Aug 12, 2005)

Orlando's draft sucked! Fran is going back to spain. At least Toronto keeps their top pick.


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## foul_balls (Jun 25, 2004)

TheATLien said:


> Orlando. Toronto's draft is a disgrace.


Torontos' draft was not a disgrace. You don't provide any evidence or opinion to back up this statement.

People might argue that Babcock got lucky (even I thought so initially), but in his situation, if you look at the people below you who are rumored to be taking big men, then you let the swingmen slide and hope one of Wright, Graham, and Granger fall to you at 16. (What happens is you get the two players you hoped for with your two picks). No one would have said anything if they took Granger/Graham with the first pick and then got CV with the 2nd. Even Coach Calhoun stated that Charlie had 2 promises from teams between 8 and 15 (Probably GS and NJ).

It was a gamble that Babcock and Embry took and it paid off really well, with Granger and Graham (AND GREEN!) still on the board.

TheATlien, I remember you ragging on Babcock for taking Ukic in the 2nd round when he wasn't going to come over and play. How does Orlando get a better grade for losing their 1st round pick in the same situation?


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## Pnack (Aug 23, 2005)

I really dont think you can saw who had a better draft until we see what these kids do in the regular season. Although at first I was suprised when Toronto went with CV but no one can say it was a bad pick until they see how it turns out


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

KobeBryant08 said:


> I really dont think you can saw who had a better draft *until we see what these kids do in the regular season*. Although at first I was suprised when Toronto went with CV but no one can say it was a bad pick until they see how it turns out


Umm... I think Toronto wins this one at this point.

On a side note, I joined in on the trashing of the Villanueva pick but I think i've changed my tune. I think Villanueva is going to be a lot better than I and many other people expected.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

as much as toronto ruined my draft board for 2 straight years i have to give them credit this year charlie V was a good pick , graham was a steal at 16 and ukic fell to them in the 2nd round

charlie V turned the corner during the final stretch of his soph. year he became a great college player, my only problem with him is he cant play defense neither his man or team defense, but on offense has the talent to be derrick coleman light he can do alot of things and he is big and getting bigger.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> For all of you that voted Toronto, can you explain what was so upsetting about Orlando's draft for you.



Fran Vasquez proving that he is a ***** and deciding to stay in Europe.


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## KoBe & BeN GoRdOn! (Aug 4, 2005)

Orlando


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## Charlotte_______ (May 18, 2003)

Toronto, Villanueva and Graham are excellent players, and will do well for the Raptors


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## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

:laugh: @ this thread is still up


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## X-Factor (Aug 24, 2004)

I think Toronto's draft was far better then Orlando's for right now. We don't have our top pick of the draft until next year at the earliest. I see Orlando getting two solid players in the future (Vazquez and Diener), and the Raptors having CV and Granger as solid players in the future. I think in the long run Toronto has the better pair of players, but Orlando has a nice pair as well.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

X-Factor said:


> I think Toronto's draft was far better then Orlando's for right now. We don't have our top pick of the draft until next year at the earliest. I see Orlando getting two solid players in the future (Vazquez and Diener), and the Raptors having CV and *Granger* as solid players in the future. I think in the long run Toronto has the better pair of players, but Orlando has a nice pair as well.


Toronto drafted Graham, not Granger.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

KoBe & BeN GoRdOn! said:


> Orlando



Good justification.


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## sai (Sep 12, 2005)

None, both teams picks suck


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## Drop_Dimes (Aug 27, 2005)

can i vote niether?


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