# Vince fought Sam Mitchell



## Primetime23 (Feb 3, 2004)

Verified by Michelle Carter and another source in the organization just saw it on a sports show here in TO

Sam challenged Vince to a fight, Vince slammed him onto a massage table

more coming


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## Primetime23 (Feb 3, 2004)

4 players have asked for trades

Eric Williams
Aaron Williams
Donyell Marshall
Lamond Murray

In cleveland Sam challenged Alston to a fight, getting interesting

MoPete and some of the other players are getting worried with whats going on in the lcoker room


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Didnt Sam also challenge Rafer to fight


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Mitchell is still young in comparision to most coaches, and still probably has a player's mentality when problems arise. 

I thought Charles Barkley was joking in my signature.


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## Primetime23 (Feb 3, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> Didnt Sam also challenge Rafer to fight


Yep he did, things are looking worse and worse for the Raptors everyone's going to be looking to jump ship

this is the worst state the teams been in that i can remember

Sam's gotta go he's been routinely outcocached and his players are fed up with his antics, i dont expect him to be fired tho it would just reflect poorly on the franchise

Babcock has had his first 4 major moves blow up in his face

Hiring Mitchell

Trading Vince for 3 scrubs that wont contribute to the team

Drafting Arujo

Signing Alston ( this ones not that bad, problems have stemmed from Mitchell )


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## jdg (Jun 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Primetime23</b>!
> 
> 
> Yep he did, things are looking worse and worse for the Raptors everyone's going to be looking to jump ship
> ...


Well, to be fair, two of the last three actually stem from Mitchell. Eric Williams could be a huge contributor to this team, but Mitchell just decided one day he didn't like playing him.

And Araujo was a waste at #8, but not a total waste. He can become a competant starting center in the NBA, and that is more than more teams have playing the 5.


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## arcade_rida (Jun 23, 2003)

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: HAHA. Raptors should have drafted AI. Damn man look at us now. Araujo isnt that bad but man I feel bad being a raptor fan. I will still love them no matter what though.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Of course this is all true, because Vince's words are gospel.  Do you think before you post this stuff? Don't you think that if Sam actually fought these guys then he'd be gone by now?

The only source claiming that he fought Rafer or even challanged him to a fight was from Rafer's agent. Yup, credibility-R-us right there. :greatjob:



> Originally posted by <b>Primetime23</b>!
> Babcock has had his first 4 major moves blow up in his face
> 
> Hiring Mitchell






> Trading Vince for 3 scrubs that wont contribute to the team


Conveniently forgetting the two draft picks we got.



> Drafting Arujo


Living in Toronto, I'm sure you've seen him play, and while he wasn't the best player available, you can't deny that the Raptors have some kind of stability in our frontcourt for the future.



> Signing Alston ( this ones not that bad, problems have stemmed from Mitchell )


What a guy... honestly you're just like every other dime-a-dozen impatient Toronto fan there is, and we're seeing a lot of you on the Raptors board. You guys obviously can't see more than two steps in front of you, and clearly can't analyze **** for yourselves. So far zero current Raptors have confirmed any of the BS you're talking about in this thread - not even trade demands, that has been mostly agents. So please stop posting if you can't make decent posts. If I want to read garbage I can read the newspaper, I don't need to see it from Raptors fans on this site.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Primetime23</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And it wouldn't be as bad if Araujo was even considered a top 10 pick at draft time. The Raptors reached pretty far to draft him, and Araujo doesn't seem to be showing a lot of progress. I wouldn't label Babcock's tenure anything yet, but he hasn't exactly sped out of the gate.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

LMAO, whenever players get on his nerves...he challenges them to a fight. This guy has to be the stupidest and worst coach I've ever heard of. What a total moron.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

A big part of the Araujo pick was to keep Bosh happy. The Raptors (Bosh included) didn't want to see him get banged up playing center and with Araujo he's able to play his natural position. Probably not the greatest pick but the point was this team has for awhile knew it was going to be built around CB4 and not VC


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Sam's sweet. He sure didn't give Vince a lot of freedom on the court though, which may have helped his trade value a fair bit. Still, it is imperative that he shows who's boss. I think he'll work well with a young team.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> A big part of the Araujo pick was to keep Bosh happy. The Raptors (Bosh included) didn't want to see him get banged up playing center and with Araujo he's able to play his natural position. Probably not the greatest pick but the point was this team has for awhile knew it was going to be built around CB4 and not VC


The team will be keep losing for a decade.


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## Primetime23 (Feb 3, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Budweiser_Boy</b>!
> Of course this is all true, because Vince's words are gospel.  Do you think before you post this stuff? Don't you think that if Sam actually fought these guys then he'd be gone by now?
> 
> The only source claiming that he fought Rafer or even challanged him to a fight was from Rafer's agent. Yup, credibility-R-us right there. :greatjob:
> ...


Bud Boy i have 11,000 less posts than you do and still know more about basketball

Arujo should have gone in the 15-20 range at the earliest and Babcock grabbed him at 8!!! He looks like Alex Radojavic reincarnated

I cant see more than two steps in front of me? Oh sure you and Rob Babcock can read the future, Great trade by Babs moving Carter for Eric Williams (to be fair he's the only player that wasnt a scrub but IMO he's a sixth man at best) Aaron Williams (scrub) and Alonzo Mourning who just ate up atleast 9 mil for not showing up to the Raptors. Oh but wait Babs is a genius because he got 2 mid first rounders out of the deal and with this teams draft istory and Babcocks promising start we'll end up with the next Joe Forte and Troy Bell. We would have been better off taking reef for vince straight up to get some money off the books

and this story isnt coming from Vince its coming from his mom and another person in the organization, not to mention Vince's mom heard it from Mitchell himself. 

I'm not an impatient fan that cant see two steps in front of me, you're just a homer that cant admit that things have been done poorly by management. Open your eyes this teams on the brink of a melt down


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## Primetime23 (Feb 3, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> The team will be keep losing for a decade.


Agreed


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## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

Imagine Sam Mitchell as the coach of a team that Ron Artest plays on :laugh: :laugh:


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> Sam's sweet. He sure didn't give Vince a lot of freedom on the court though, which may have helped his trade value a fair bit. Still, it is imperative that he shows who's boss. I think he'll work well with a young team.


There are plenty of respected coaches on the NBA sidelines who have never threatened a player. It is important that he keep his players in check, but it shows a bit of idiocy to constantly threaten to beat up players when they make you mad. He's got the right idea, but he's not handling the situation right.


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## Primetime23 (Feb 3, 2004)

Bud Boy just re-reading your post you are actually delusional, obviously non of the players that are in the locker room are going to come out and say that yeah sam challenged rafer to a fight. 

How would they be looked upon by their teammates and coaching staff if they took that lcoker room to the media, people surrounding the team and noton the team are the only ones that can get away revealing that kind of info

seriously take your homer glasses off for once and look at the things that are happening that's three sources that have said that Mitchell has challenged players to a fight but in your eyes this is a league wide conspiracy to make mitchell look like the bad guy :yes: gimme a break


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Primetime23</b>!
> 
> 
> Bud Boy i have 11,000 less posts than you do and still know more about basketball


I could have negative 11,000 posts and I'd still have more objectivity than you do.



> Arujo should have gone in the 15-20 range at the earliest and Babcock grabbed him at 8!!! He looks like Alex Radojavic reincarnated


You obviously never watched Radojevic. He was a *****, and couldn't even win jump balls at summer league games. Araujo has shown more limited minutes this season than Radojevic has his entire career combined. Yes he was a reach, but tell me who you'd rather have from that draft. And please remind me why it would be such a great idea to stunt Bosh's progress by playing him at the 5 again.



> I cant see more than two steps in front of me? Oh sure you and Rob Babcock can read the future, Great trade by Babs moving Carter for Eric Williams (to be fair he's the only player that wasnt a scrub but IMO he's a sixth man at best) Aaron Williams (scrub) and Alonzo Mourning who just ate up atleast 9 mil for not showing up to the Raptors. Oh but wait Babs is a genius because he got 2 mid first rounders out of the deal and with this teams draft istory and Babcocks promising start we'll end up with the next Joe Forte and Troy Bell. We would have been better off taking reef for vince straight up to get some money off the books


You just proved why you can't see two steps ahead of you. First of all you're writing off Babcock for making a trade involving a player with Vince's value (extremely low at the time), and furthermore you don't even care to explain what Eric Williams has brought to the table, and the impact that getting rid of Vince had on the team. Have you watched Bosh play ever since the trade? Have you seen how he plays off of EWill? Eric has been a great player for us so far. The fact that you just blatantly assume we're going to waste our two picks - ignoring the fact that we have a new scouting team - just further proves my point. Post count regardless.

That said, I can't comprehend why Sam hasn't been playing the Williamses (Eric lately), but you have to look back and examine the situation - we're only a couple weeks away from the deadline, likely Rob is trying to up Marshall's value for a potential trade. Furthermore, the VC trade was mostly addition by subtraction. The fact that we got two picks out of it and a player who works very well with Bosh is pretty much icing on the cake.



> and this story isnt coming from Vince its coming from his mom and another person in the organization, not to mention Vince's mom heard it from Mitchell himself.


No ****, that's what makes it even less credible. I just posted this in another thread... "I just love it how everyone takes words that come out of MICHELLE FREAKIN CARTER's mouth without a grain of salt, and treat it like it's gospel."



> I'm not an impatient fan that cant see two steps in front of me, you're just a homer that cant admit that things have been done poorly by management. Open your eyes this teams on the brink of a melt down


Open _your_ eyes, because even if this team is on the brink of a melt down, this is not gonna be our team next year, or the year after, or the year after that. We're in a mode called re-building. If we were supposed championship contenders this season like the T'Wolves, yeah I'd be worried, and yeah I'd be pissed. But this management is not working for this season, so obviously it's not gonna be all pretty this season. That's why I won't be so quick to point the finger, because I know that this isn't the end results. You're just looking for a quick explanation, and of course you start blaming in each and every direction blindly, without taking a step back and maybe thinking that it's a bigger picture than you can see.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Primetime23</b>!
> Bud Boy just re-reading your post you are actually delusional, obviously non of the players that are in the locker room are going to come out and say that yeah sam challenged rafer to a fight.


Yeah that's true, but I'm pretty sure some sort of action would have already been taken on Mitchell by either the management or the league. Things like this just don't slide completely under the radar. Remember, this is a time where Sprewell can get suspended for taunting the crowd... fighting in the locker room is much worse than that, no matter which way you look at it. There's no way that it couldn't have leaked out to management at the very least, if not the league. Think before you post.



> How would they be looked upon by their teammates and coaching staff if they took that lcoker room to the media, people surrounding the team and noton the team are the only ones that can get away revealing that kind of info


Mitchell is pretty vocal in the media himself (although he has toned it down since the beginning of the season) - it wasn't a good trait by any means, and obviously he's learning that (you gotta remember, he's still a rookie coach). So I don't think the players would have any problems with coming out to the media. But the point is that they don't have to address the media per se to have action taken against Mitchell, like I posted above.



> seriously take your homer glasses off for once and look at the things that are happening that's three sources that have said that Mitchell has challenged players to a fight but in your eyes this is a league wide conspiracy to make mitchell look like the bad guy :yes: gimme a break


Way to put words in my mouth. :greatjob:

I don't think there's any conspiracy against Mitchell, and I don't think he's the best coach. I do think he's done a good job, but of course if these allegations are true then it's a big blow to the franchise. But pardon me if I'll take it with a grain of salt for now, and if being objective means I'm a homer, then so be it. By those standards you must be a complete moron.


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## Primetime23 (Feb 3, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Budweiser_Boy</b>!
> 
> 
> I could have negative 11,000 posts and I'd still have more objectivity than you do.


you are the prototypical homer, give it up




> You obviously never watched Radojevic. He was a *****, and couldn't even win jump balls at summer league games. Araujo has shown more limited minutes this season than Radojevic has his entire career combined. Yes he was a reach, but tell me who you'd rather have from that draft. And please remind me why it would be such a great idea to stunt Bosh's progress by playing him at the 5 again.




Taking Iggy if we were looking for the best available player, it would have created a log jam at the 2/3 but players could have been moved, trading down would have been another idea. Hoffa hasnt turned Bosh's game around he's only playing 12 minutes a game. Horrible pick we needed size but it was a huge reach




> You just proved why you can't see two steps ahead of you. First of all you're writing off Babcock for making a trade involving a player with Vince's value (extremely low at the time), and furthermore you don't even care to explain what Eric Williams has brought to the table, and the impact that getting rid of Vince had on the team. Have you watched Bosh play ever since the trade? Have you seen how he plays off of EWill? Eric has been a great player for us so far. The fact that you just blatantly assume we're going to waste our two picks - ignoring the fact that we have a new scouting team - just further proves my point. Post count regardless.




I never said that getting rid of Vince was a bad move it was what he got in return for him. Grizz and Blazers most liekly had better offers on the table, Babs panicked when Vince got hurt and pulled the trigger on a bad trade. Ewill hasnt contributed much, 5 points on %35 shooting and we're a worse defensive team now then we were with Vince, again please dont let your homerism blind you



> That said, I can't comprehend why Sam hasn't been playing the Williamses (Eric lately), but you have to look back and examine the situation - we're only a couple weeks away from the deadline, likely Rob is trying to up Marshall's value for a potential trade. Furthermore, the VC trade was mostly addition by subtraction. The fact that we got two picks out of it and a player who works very well with Bosh is pretty much icing on the cake.







> No ****, that's what makes it even less credible. I just posted this in another thread... "I just love it how everyone takes words that come out of MICHELLE FREAKIN CARTER's mouth without a grain of salt, and treat it like it's gospel."



yep she has nothing better to do than make up stories about the team, you migth have a valid claim that we shouldnt take this with a grain of salt if it hadnt been verified atleast 2 other sources




> Open _your_ eyes, because even if this team is on the brink of a melt down, this is not gonna be our team next year, or the year after, or the year after that. We're in a mode called re-building. If we were supposed championship contenders this season like the T'Wolves, yeah I'd be worried, and yeah I'd be pissed. But this management is not working for this season, so obviously it's not gonna be all pretty this season. That's why I won't be so quick to point the finger, because I know that this isn't the end results. You're just looking for a quick explanation, and of course you start blaming in each and every direction blindly, without taking a step back and maybe thinking that it's a bigger picture than you can see.


Yes we are in a rebuilding phase but Babcock has inspired little confidence, truthfully you are almost a bigger homer than Amareca, keep telling your self that we'tre making all the right moves


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Primetime23</b>!
> 
> Yes we are in a rebuilding phase but Babcock has onspired little confidence, truthfully you are almost a bigger homer than Amareca, keep telling your self that we'tre making all the right moves


Go start a club, let's see how many people join it. :greatjob:


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I was actually hoping when I opened this thread to see if Mitchell whipped Vince's ***. Not because I wanted to see Vince get his *** whipped, but because it would have been funny to see a coach fight a player and win.

It's like a page right out of Bob Knight's book. Makes me think of what would happen if Hulk Hogan was the coach. He rips his shirt off and starts bodyslamming his players. :laugh:


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

This story is being reported by Marty York (alias of "Marty Dork" and "The Biggest Fraud in Canada" )

So take it with a grain of salt.


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

What a trashy organization.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Primetime23</b>!
> 
> 
> you are the prototypical homer, give it up


And you are the prototypical moron who makes idiotic assumptions because you can't back up your posts.



> Taking Iggy if we were looking for the best available player, it would have created a log jam at the 2/3 but players could have been moved, trading down would have been another idea. Hoffa hasnt turned Bosh's game around he's only playing 12 minutes a game. Horrible pick we needed size but it was a huge reach


You honestly don't think the Raptors explored all opportunities to trade down? Furthermore, you honestly don't believe that Hoffa hasn't had an effect on Bosh - check his rebounding numbers with Hoffa in the lineup. If anything he helps open up Bosh's game because of his size and ability to box out.

As for Iggy, tell me where he'd fit in with our offense. Think he'd be getting any more PT than Hoffa, especially playing behind Vince, Jalen, Mo, and Lamond? I don't think so. The best player available strategy is good, but it can't be used in all cases. Look what happened in Memphis with Drew Gooden.



> I never said that getting rid of Vince was a bad move it was what he got in return for him. Grizz and Blazers most liekly had better offers on the table, Babs panicked when Vince got hurt and pulled the trigger on a bad trade. Ewill hasnt contributed much, 5 points on %35 shooting and we're a worse defensive team now then we were with Vince, again please dont let your homerism blind you


Vince got injured, that's primarily why his value was so low. He wasn't helping his value any with the way he was playing, so Babcock was using those Grizzlies and Blazers offers to try upping his value. He was being patient, hoping to get a good deadline deal. It obviously backfired when VC went down, and we had to settle for this.

Of course you can make better deals in NBA 2k5, but that's not the case. Think realistically.... I mean you accuse me of homerism yet you can't see the fact that Vince's value was extremely low (and was only going to get worse) at the time of the trade. Ridiculous.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Oh and one more thing. Good for Sam Mitchell standing up and making these mofos be accountable for their lackadaisical play. 

As far as I'm concerned if Bosh doesn't want Sam gone, then I'd keep Sam no questions about it. You're not building around bums like Lamond Murray, Eric Williams, Donyell Marshall and Aaron Williams.

Those guys are just trying to precipitate trades out of dodge, but if I was Toronto I'd trade them somewhere like the Knicks, Hawks or Hornets. I'd be damned if I sent them to a winning team.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Oh and one more thing. Good for Sam Mitchell standing up and making these mofos be accountable for their lackadaisical play.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned if Bosh doesn't want Sam gone, then I'd keep Sam no questions about it. You're not building around bums like Lamond Murray, Eric Williams, Donyell Marshall and Aaron Williams.


I agree. This is Bosh's team and has been ever since Vince was traded. Not to say the Raptors should base all their decisions around him (we tried that with VC :dead, but so far Sam seems to be a good coach for him, especially with his background playing the 4.

We'll see how this all plays out in a couple years... not a couple weeks...


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## Primetime23 (Feb 3, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Budweiser_Boy</b>!
> 
> 
> And you are the prototypical moron who makes idiotic assumptions because you can't back up your posts.


Yeah, difference is that you actually are a Homer and I'm not a moron. This is the last response i'm making because arguing with a Homer is pointless because they live in their own delusional worlds




> You honestly don't think the Raptors explored all opportunities to trade down? Furthermore, you honestly don't believe that Hoffa hasn't had an effect on Bosh - check his rebounding numbers with Hoffa in the lineup. If anything he helps open up Bosh's game because of his size and ability to box out.


Hoffa's only playing 12 minutes a game, Bosh is a better player this year because he's worked on his game not because of Hoffa. Hoffa was a horrible pick and you keep trying to justify it, at best he's going to be a Greg Ostertag-like player. He had no business going lottery, if they would have taken Iggy then they could have let Mo go and not matched the offer he got from New Orleans.



> As for Iggy, tell me where he'd fit in with our offense. Think he'd be getting any more PT than Hoffa, especially playing behind Vince, Jalen, Mo, and Lamond? I don't think so. The best player available strategy is good, but it can't be used in all cases. Look what happened in Memphis with Drew Gooden.


We wouldnt have matched Mo's offer and would have saved 15 million, Vince and Jalen start and Iggy and Lamond come off the bench. Would have been great.





> Vince got injured, that's primarily why his value was so low. He wasn't helping his value any with the way he was playing, so Babcock was using those Grizzlies and Blazers offers to try upping his value. He was being patient, hoping to get a good deadline deal. It obviously backfired when VC went down, and we had to settle for this..


Exactly Babs settled for a deal. He should have waited for Carter to come back from the injury and show he still has some game left. He traded Carter when he was at the lowest point that he could have been, he waited all off season and 20 games into the season to move him he could have waited another couple weeks for him to get back in the game. There would have been much better deals out there. 



> Of course you can make better deals in NBA 2k5, but that's not the case. Think realistically.... I mean you accuse me of homerism yet you can't see the fact that Vince's value was extremely low (and was only going to get worse) at the time of the trade. Ridiculous.


No, his value was at rock bottom the only way that it could have been worse is if his leg fell off. After the deal was done Jerry West (or someone in the Grizz organization, but pretty sure it was West) said that they were offering more for Carter, meaning their deal was still on the table. If Babs would have waited for Carter to get back to playing they probably could have gotten SAR and maybe Van Exel for Carter. He made the worst possible trade at the worst possible time.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

You really want me to come back at you when you stick to your baseless claims that I'm a homer? I don't even know why I took the time to argue with a waste of sperm like yourself.


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## Primetime23 (Feb 3, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Budweiser_Boy</b>!
> You really want me to come back at you when you stick to your baseless claims that I'm a homer? I don't even know why I took the time to argue with a waste of sperm like yourself.


Nice post to hide the fact that i had a perfect rebuttal to all your arguements

I win and I'm out


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Primetime23</b>!
> 
> 
> Nice post to hide the fact that i had a perfect rebuttal to all your arguements


(In pure Primetime fashion), except that's not true.



> I win and I'm out


Keep telling yourself that. Maybe one day you'll grow a brain. And hey, didn't you say you'd stop posting after your previous excuse for an argument? Shoulda stuck to that.


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## On Thre3 (Nov 26, 2003)

I havnt read all of your posts bud, but are you saying that the raptors arnt screwd?(maybe even a tad bit?)


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>On Thre3</b>!
> I havnt read all of your posts bud, but are you saying that the raptors arnt screwd?(maybe even a tad bit?)


The Raptors screwed? Homie we're about to lose by 20 to the Sixers, of course we're screwed! 

Here's the thing... the Raptors aren't building for this season. Are things looking great right now? Of course not. The Raptors are a rebuilding team so it's not gonna be pretty. But does that mean we're screwed long-term because of some of the drama going on now? I don't think so. We still have a ways to go in the process, and I think we're on the right track. If that makes me a homer, then I'll be damned.


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## Springsteen (Jan 24, 2003)

I think that there are some very good points made by both main combattants in this argument. Too bad about all the name calling. Anyway...

The way I see it, the worst mistake was giving Alston a 6 year deal. Doesn't that seem like quite an investment in a guy who really hasn't done much in the pros? I mean, where would he even rank among all the PG's in the game? Probably late teens, early 20's if you were ranking them all. And they tie up for 6 years in him? The deal is reasonable, but in 4 years, this is a guy who woul dlikely be out of the league.

Drafting Hoffa looks bad on the surface and I thought it was bad when it went down. He was not the 8th, or the 10th best player in the draft. But then I thought more about it. This was a draft for a need. Their pick wasn't that high. If he pans out as a guy who, when he develops (he's only a rookie) who can play 30 minuts a game, then it's a good pick. Drafting AI would have been stupid. When they drafted, they thought they still might have Vince. MoPete while not great was more of a proven commodity. They'll have Rose forever. In retrospect, I can understand and accept this choice, though I would have rather they trade down to make the pick.

I don't like hiring coaches with little to no head coaching experience in the pros. That's just me. I would have liked if they would have hired an assistant coach with years of experience. But, someone has to give him a chance I guess. He could turn out to be Byron Scott. But on the other hand, Mitchell could easily turn out to be Magic or Isiah.

Finally, the trade for Vince was a good trade. It's all speculation what was on the table. People talk about a Grizz or a Portland trade. The facts of the matter are that those offers are a combination of speculation, wishful thinking and maybe an ounce of truth. It's unclear what was offered. What is clear, is that when VC was traded he was becoming more cancerous every day. His teammates were hating him, he wasn't working hard. Babcock probably would have traded him for a bag of balls. They had to get rid of him ASAP. They got 2 draft picks, two players who could help, and Zo. Taking on Zo just shows how bad they wanted to get rid of him. Anyway, I don't know how people argue against this b/c there is no factual basis in there being better trades.

End rant.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

I usually side with coaches since there are so many jaded players but Sam Mitchell seemingly is to be blamed for many of the Raptors problems. I know Mitchell is feisty but man, this guy seems crazy. 

Carter's mom broke the first rule of fight club.


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## rapsfan4life (Apr 10, 2004)

Carter's mom?? Marty DONK??? U kidding me??

I am now the queen of england 

on side note: damn i missed out on all the fun


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> Carter's mom broke the first rule of fight club.


:laugh:


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

If Vince was really tanking, like it looks like now, who's to say his value would've gotten that much better?


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## kg_mvp03-04 (Jul 24, 2003)

I hate to say it but i believe that this is true according to Michell himself that he did Wrestle with Carter. So there was a physical altercation. Mitchell needs to calm down, i think they should just fire him you can't have him wrestling with players and challenging them Here is the link
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-carter-mitchellfight&prov=ap&type=lgns


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kg_mvp03-04</b>!
> I hate to say it but i believe that this is true according to Michell himself that he did Wrestle with Carter. So there was a physical altercation. Mitchell needs to calm down, i think they should just fire him you can't have him wrestling with players and challenging them Here is the link
> http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-carter-mitchellfight&prov=ap&type=lgns


Your quote does not have anything from Mitchell confirming this outlandish story.


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## kg_mvp03-04 (Jul 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> 
> 
> Your quote does not have anything from Mitchell confirming this outlandish story.


Mitchell, speaking to reporters in Toronto after the 76ers-Raptors game, said he and Carter merely wrestled


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Seems as though Mitchell is far too emotional and confrontational to survive as an NBA coach in this day and age. He should probably be fired.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kg_mvp03-04</b>!
> I hate to say it but i believe that this is true according to Michell himself that he did Wrestle with Carter. So there was a physical altercation. Mitchell needs to calm down, i think they should just fire him you can't have him wrestling with players and challenging them Here is the link
> http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-carter-mitchellfight&prov=ap&type=lgns


Here are some quotes from that story...

"``So I asked Vince what happened. He told me he couldn't take Sam's challenges any more, so he picked him up and threw him on the massage table. That definitely happened. No question about it. And if anyone says it didn't happen, they're lying,'' she told Sportsnet of Canada. "

According to this quote (from his mother) Vince was the one starting the fight, not Sam. But that's his mom. She also said this:

``I did not say it was a fight,'' she said. ``I want to clarify that. I wasn't there, I'm just going by what Sam Mitchell said and what Vince Carter told me.'' 

Whatever. But Vince said this:

``You make an altercation (sound) like a fight,'' 

So was it really a fight? Was it really as big and bad as some of you guys put it? The story also mentions that they "merely wrestled." That can be taken so many different ways. It might have been what Vince himself just said it was - an altercation, or what Vince's mom said it was - a challenge, or they might have litterally wrestled - definitely not out of the question. But this article doesn't answer any questions, as Vince denies fighting Mitchell, his mom denies Vince fighting Mitchell, and the article doesn't legitimize Vince fighting Mitchell at all.

Sam Mitchell's an NBA coach, and there's a certain amount of professionalism that comes with that. And I'm definitely not pleased with a lot of the things I've been hearing lately. But what most likely happened, IMO, especially with the way that Vince was playing for the Raptors, is that Sam wanted to talk to him about how he was playing, and how he wanted him to play for the team. They obviously had differences - Vince probably complained about lack of playing time, Sam probably told him to do more in the playing time he got, I DON'T KNOW, but it's a possibility. After that, Vince didn't want to hear it anymore and decided to take action by slamming him onto a massage table. But then again, you don't just slam someone onto a massage table. So Sam definitely initiated this, whether it was by merely talking or actually taking action. That's the most logical explanation I can think of out of this. Either way it doesn't look good for either of them.

Still though, you gotta think about this kinda stuff, not just read whatever the articles tell you and throwing a fit over it. And this isn't directed at you specifically, just a lot of Raptors fans and NBA fans in general who seem to be doing this right now.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

I feel bad for Bosh... Get that guy out of the there before he gets ruined, he has great character, and a positive attitude, but how long will either last under these conditions?


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## rapsfan4life (Apr 10, 2004)

Bosh ain't going nowhere


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## kg_mvp03-04 (Jul 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> 
> 
> Your quote does not have anything from Mitchell confirming this outlandish story.


Mitchell, speaking to reporters in Toronto after the 76ers-Raptors game, said he and Carter merely wrestled


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

I know Canada loves fake wrestling but it's not in the job description for an NBA coach (to my knowledge).

They probably weren't having fun wrestling but probably spilled over from an heated altercation.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>S-Star</b>!
> I feel bad for Bosh... Get that guy out of the there before he gets ruined, he has great character, and a positive attitude, but how long will either last under these conditions?


Three days, give or take a few hours. Then he'll start hitting the pipe, driving down the sidewalk and pissing on the Canadian flag. 

Just because he is a mature, intelligent, devoted young man doesn't mean he can handle a small amount of locker room tension and some exaggerated stories by hackneyed hockey writers.

It's a wonder he hasn't gone to Stern's house and kicked his door down for allowing Toronto to draft him in the first place.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Let's see the facts AS PER THE NEWS I SAW WITH MY OWN EYES TONIGHT.

1. Michelle Carter (ON MY TV SCREEN!) denied there ever was an altercation. She mentioned that at the christmas party all parties involved joked around about the play fight a few days before.

2. Vince Carter (ON MY TV SCREEN) denied anything happened.

3. Sam Mithcell (ON MY TV SCREEN) corraborated Michelle Carter's story.

4. Marty DORK who broke the story is a moron. 

There is absolutely no story here.

It is disgusting that all our hockey media who know **** all about basketball our reporting ridiculous stories like this.


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## MiamiWade (Jan 23, 2005)

Obviously Toronto has some problems. I am glad Vince is out of there and can showcase his talent better.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Funny how Michelle, Vince, and Sam have all debunked this story already. The most that seems to have happened was butt-slapping and play fighting on the massage tables.

Clearly an indication of the downward spiral Raptors are caught in.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> Funny how Michelle, Vince, and Sam have all debunked this story already. The most that seems to have happened was butt-slapping and play fighting on the massage tables.
> 
> Clearly an indication of the downward spiral Raptors are caught in.


I don't know if VC was being serious here or not...



> It also couldn't have come at a more inopportune time. A report out of Canada on Friday night said Carter got into a physical altercation with Raptors' coach Sam Mitchell this season. According to the report, Carter lifted Mitchell and slammed him down on a massage table. Carter did not deny the story.
> 
> "So what's the big deal?" he said.


http://www.northjersey.com/page.php...lRUV5eTY2NTMwMTEmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> I don't know if VC was being serious here or not...
> 
> http://www.northjersey.com/page.php...lRUV5eTY2NTMwMTEmeXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2


Now that he's on the Nets, you guys are going to learn that Vince has wierd ways of dealing with the media. He always has. When saying "no" could defuse a story, even when it's the truth, sometimes Vince has a tendency to twist words and send mixed signals. Always has. Sometimes he'll say stuff that will make you scratch your head.

The true story is apparently that Vince, Alvin Williams and Sam were in the lockerroom. Sam was making fun of Vince and Alvin for being old and broken down and laying on the massage tables. Sam went over to them and smacked both their asses. Mitchell then laid down beside them and Vince crawled on top of him and they jokingly wrestled/grappled. Alvin Williams laughed and remarked that they were like WWE wrestlers.

When Vince says "you guys make an altercation like we're having a fight" he doesn't realize that play-fighting isn't the same thing as having an altercation. He doesn't seem to think the word altercation has a confrontational/angry slant to it.

Sam told reporters last night, quote, "If Vince Carter and I were actually fighting in the locker room, I would think - because you guys [reporters] find out everything else - you would have found out about that five months ago when we were in there joking."

And Michelle said last night that "I did not say it was a fight... I want to make that perfectly clear."

So, file this story along with all the other crap these spinmeisters in the Toronto sports world have churned-out over the years.


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## rapsfan4life (Apr 10, 2004)

Your know your stuff speedy when it comes to vince :yes:


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

Wait, so the immediate help excuse works when defending the Araujo pick but at the same time the Raptors sucking now is okay because they are "building for the future"? Take Iggy if you are building for the future. The Raptors wanted to win now but seriously ****ed up. The organization needs some Stalinesque purging.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>HeinzGuderian</b>!
> Wait, so the immediate help excuse works when defending the Araujo pick but at the same time the Raptors sucking now is okay because they are "building for the future"? Take Iggy if you are building for the future. The Raptors wanted to win now but seriously ****ed up. The organization needs some Stalinesque purging.


Who said they wanted to win now?
When Babcock was first named GM he said he didn't think we would make the playoffs this season, and that the main focus was building for the future. How is a team going to try to win now when their franchise player wants out of town?

Get your facts straight.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> The most that seems to have happened was butt-slapping and play fighting on the massage tables.


Sounds kinda gay, no?


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Turkish Delight</b>!
> 
> 
> Who said they wanted to win now?
> ...


Then why on earth did they draft Araujo? Either they are complete idiots for taking him at 8, or they wanted to try and win now by getting a guy why at least is somewhat NBA ready and fills a direct need for this year, despite him obviously not having the talent to be taken that high. They may have hoped Carter would work out this year, but I don't think it was that hard to see last year that Carter wasn't the answer in toronto. Either way they ****ed up, I don't see how that can be defended.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>HeinzGuderian</b>!
> 
> Then why on earth did they draft Araujo? Either they are complete idiots for taking him at 8, or they wanted to try and win now by getting a guy why at least is somewhat NBA ready and fills a direct need for this year, despite him obviously not having the talent to be taken that high. They may have hoped Carter would work out this year, but I don't think it was that hard to see last year that Carter wasn't the answer in toronto. Either way they ****ed up, I don't see how that can be defended.


It's funny how there are so many clueless people on this board that talk like they know everything.
The Raptors needed a C. Chris was playing the 5 last year, but he was obviously undersized, and this allowed him to move back to the 4, his natural position where he would be able to contribute a lot more. Have you even seen a Raptor game this season? Araujo is raw, he is still obviously developping. He is a hell of a rebounder for the limited time he gets playing time, his main problem right now is that he gets in foul trouble too often, but that's obviously something that he can work on this off-season.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> 
> 
> Sounds kinda gay, no?



Very gay.
You'd never see someone tap someone in the *** in professional sports would you?
*sigh*


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> Sounds kinda gay, no?


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

:laugh: :laugh: :rofl:

Damn speedy, I was actually laughing out loud with that one! :laugh:


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Turkish Delight</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm secure enough in my maculinity to to say slapping another man in the butt is a manly thing to do. 

but for one man to lie on top of another on top of a massage table. Good thing Alvin Williams was there

Alvin : "haha..WWE wrestling!"
Vince : um....yeah....wrestling....









I say this whole topic reeks of ghey


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Turkish Delight</b>!
> 
> 
> It's funny how there are so many clueless people on this board that talk like they know everything.
> The Raptors needed a C. Chris was playing the 5 last year, but he was obviously undersized, and this allowed him to move back to the 4, his natural position where he would be able to contribute a lot more. Have you even seen a Raptor game this season? Araujo is raw, he is still obviously developping. He is a hell of a rebounder for the limited time he gets playing time, his main problem right now is that he gets in foul trouble too often, but that's obviously something that he can work on this off-season.


But they *don't* really need a center this year, if they aren't planning on winning this year. No point in drafting an inferior player to fill a need when you are going to suck either way, and could at least have a better player for the future if you take someone from a position you already have. Or trade the pick down. If you are planning on winning this year, which is what the management seemed to be planning on this summer, it's okay to draft an inferior player to fill a need. But clearly their plans to be decent this year failed, and the incompetency of the Raptors management should take a large part of that blame. Rebuilding is not going fine when they weren't even planning on rebuilding in the first place until problems with Vince got so bad (a scenario so likely a newborn horse could have predicted). My main idea here is I don't believe even a management as incompetent as the Raptors would have taken Araujo at the 8th spot if their plans were to rebuild for the long term.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HeinzGuderian</b>!
> 
> But they *don't* really need a center this year, if they aren't planning on winning this year. No point in drafting an inferior player to fill a need when you are going to suck either way, and could at least have a better player for the future if you take someone from a position you already have. Or trade the pick down. If you are planning on winning this year, which is what the management seemed to be planning on this summer, it's okay to draft an inferior player to fill a need. But clearly their plans to be decent this year failed, and the incompetency of the Raptors management should take a large part of that blame. Rebuilding is not going fine when they weren't even planning on rebuilding in the first place until problems with Vince got so bad (a scenario so likely a newborn horse could have predicted). My main idea here is I don't believe even a management as incompetent as the Raptors would have taken Araujo at the 8th spot if their plans were to rebuild for the long term.


We're rebuilding, but we're also trying to speed up Bosh's progress while doing so. After all, that's the point of rebuilding right? You're still *building* for the future, right? Now we don't have to worry about our starting frontcourt nearly as much, and we don't have to worry about Bosh getting the **** beaten out of him by guys like Jahidi White at the 5. In the future it's definitely a possiblity that Bosh could start at center, but it would have been only detrimental to him and the team in the long run to throw him in there again this season. That's why we drafted Araujo.

Would I have prefered trading down for Hoffa? Definitely. But it couldn't be done, so tough luck for us. I'd rather get this out of the way than throw Bosh to the wolves for another season, especially considering the upcoming draft is much more promising for PG and swingman prospects than it is for big men.


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## BBALLSCIENCES (Oct 16, 2004)

The team got lazy with Vince as the leader and Mitchell is trying to re-instill that fight in them that they need to be successful. Some guys are taking it harder than others, but I think all will be better for it in the long run.


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