# Phil Jackson



## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

Bizarre that I can't see a thread on this...

He's now the Lakers all-time win leading coach. 










Side-note: Is winningest even a word? :laugh:

Interesting argument I saw on NBA Fastbreak though. Is he better than Pat Riley? Some still think he isn't...


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## Lynx (Mar 6, 2004)

Of course, he's better than Pat Riley - he got 10 rings!


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## Steez (Nov 28, 2002)

10 NBA Championships
Most wins as Coach in Lakers History
Most wins as Coach in Bulls History


1 Coach of the year :wtf:


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Interesting quote about Jackson commenting on Kobe relating to his coaching history/future in LA:



> "From time I took over this team till probably the time I leave, that's always been an issue," Coach Phil Jackson said Tuesday about Bryant's shooting. "One of our first team meetings was about the fact that Kobe wasn't passing the ball... that whole crew, they wanted to sit down and talk about it as a team."
> 
> But Jackson said he has no problems with him now.
> 
> ...


Even after all these years he's still gotta deal with that . Did Pat Riley, Pop, or Jerry Sloan encounter long term issues with their franchise players like that? It is kind of a double-edged sword since Kobe's shooting is both the best and worst thing about him I suppose.

Great yet inevitable accomplishment for Phil Jackson. Imo he's not the best coach today but he's in that tier and has an arguable case for that ultimately superficial and debatable title. Blemishes like letting Kobe take too much control over the team after Shaq left and missing the playoffs stand out.

Definitely the luckiest coach ever though. Prime Michael Jordan, Shaq, and Kobe + Gasol? Even Stan Van Gundy could win a few rings with those guys.


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## Lynx (Mar 6, 2004)

^ lmao - you still think Kobe ran out fat and lazy butt Shaq?


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Lynx said:


> ^ lmao - you still think Kobe ran out fat and lazy butt Shaq?


Nope, I clearly wrote "after Shaq left". lmao 

But on that topic they were both primadonna alpha males that were going to force eachother out. Maybe it was something even beyond that since some time after Shaq was traded, Kobe called out LA telling him he might leave 'em. I wonder how Pat Riley, Jerry Sloan, etc. would've handled that kind of locker room.

It is worth noting that times have changed a lot since - Shaq has been doing well as roleplayer and Kobe knows he's gotta give the ball to his team.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Congrats to Phil.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

I do think LA should get the ball to Gasol more - it doesn't have to be Shaq like touches, but something a little more consistent. I think Kobe is trying to do a little too much lately...I don't like the team chemistry too much at this point. It could be because he's been injured, it could also be because of the Lakers who's won that title last year, he's still the one who's really hungry - I feel like Gasol may be a little complacent - he's not as aggressive as he can be when he does have the ball.

Whenever you think of Kobe passing around you tend to think of him making plays for others, not necessarily them doing their own thing with it. But, it's still the regular season, so IMO it's far too early to say anything definitively. I'll make my final judgements come playoff time.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Oh and, you have to put Phil there.... Riley was good no doubt, but let's not forget that his Lakers team was stacked with talent also. Yeah, Phil won with great teams, but what coach who's won more than 1 title had a team that wasn't great? I'd say Phil and Riley are neck and neck as GOAT LAL coaches, but Phil is above Riley overall.... We've seen Riley sink a team for the lottery - I don't think Phil would have done that.

Oh yea, I have to say this - Jerry West is somewhat overrated. Yeah, he's one of the all time greats, and he's the logo. But what is it? 10 finals appearances and 1 ring? He wasn't even the man for that one championship IIRC.

So let's put it like this - If Kobe went to 10 Finals', and only won 1 - where would his place in LA's history be? Definitely not top 5, no matter his stats. But that's just me.


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## Lynx (Mar 6, 2004)

Jakain said:


> Nope, I clearly wrote "after Shaq left". lmao
> 
> But on that topic they were both primadonna alpha males that were going to force eachother out. Maybe it was something even beyond that since some time after Shaq was traded, Kobe called out LA telling him he might leave 'em. I wonder how Pat Riley, Jerry Sloan, etc. would've handled that kind of locker room.
> 
> It is worth noting that times have changed a lot since - Shaq has been doing well as roleplayer and Kobe knows he's gotta give the ball to his team.


Nice initial post edit. 

Kobe didn't call out LA or fans - he called out management. While, it wasn't the right move on his part, many Laker fans agreed about his comments.

Riley and Sloan don't matter in this discussion - oh let it be known Riley and Shaq pretty much scapegoat SVG. Yeah, Shaq is doing well as a role player, riding LBJ on 20 million dollar check, lol


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Jakain said:


> Great yet inevitable accomplishment for Phil Jackson. Imo he's not the best coach today but he's in that tier and has an arguable case for that ultimately superficial and debatable title. Blemishes like letting Kobe take too much control over the team after Shaq left and missing the playoffs stand out.
> 
> Definitely the luckiest coach ever though. Prime Michael Jordan, Shaq, and Kobe + Gasol? Even Stan Van Gundy could win a few rings with those guys.


See, that's the problem I have with the perception of Phil Jackson. People focus on the great players he has had and still has and totally forget how you still need to make it work. You can't take building a team and the chemistry that goes along with it and is essential, for granted. A lot of coaches have won championships, the difference is the continuous success he and his teams have had.

What's really strange is that it seems he still has not earned a true benefit of the doubt, at least partially. By that, I don't mean that he shouldn't be criticized, but there always seems to be some animosity towards his coaching methods during the season. Out of the 19 years he has been a head coach in the NBA, his teams more often that not wound up hoisting the Larry O'Brien trophy at the end of the season, that is incredible.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

croco said:


> See, that's the problem I have with the perception of Phil Jackson. People focus on the great players he has had and still has and totally forget how you still need to make it work. You can't take building a team and the chemistry that goes along with it and is essential, for granted. A lot of coaches have won championships, the difference is the continuous success he and his teams have had.
> 
> What's really strange is that it seems he still has not earned a true benefit of the doubt, at least partially. By that, I don't mean that he shouldn't be criticized, but there always seems to be some animosity towards his coaching methods during the season. Out of the 19 years he has been a head coach in the NBA, his teams more often that not wound up hoisting the Larry O'Brien trophy at the end of the season, that is incredible.


Out of Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant and Scottie Pippen, they have a combined *1* championship without Phil. That was when Shaquille won with the Heat as a roleplayer. 

That should be enough to debunk the theory that he only won because he had great players. He took great players and made them legends by making them into mental giants as well as physical giants. If you look at those players before and after Phil, the biggest difference you can see is how he took them to a completely different level mentally.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Lynx said:


> Nice initial post edit.


I just edited "history/future" used to just say history IIRC. :wtf: 



> Kobe didn't call out LA or fans - he called out management. While, it wasn't the right move on his part, many Laker fans agreed about his comments.
> 
> Riley and Sloan don't matter in this discussion - oh let it be known Riley and Shaq pretty much scapegoat SVG. Yeah, Shaq is doing well as a role player, riding LBJ on 20 million dollar check, lol


LA = Lakers organization, sorry for the confusion. Agreed it wasn't the right move but ya can't argue with acquiring Pau Gasol.




croco said:


> See, that's the problem I have with the perception of Phil Jackson. People focus on the great players he has had and still has and totally forget how you still need to make it work. You can't take building a team and the chemistry that goes along with it and is essential, for granted. A lot of coaches have won championships, the difference is the continuous success he and his teams have had.
> 
> What's really strange is that it seems he still has not earned a true benefit of the doubt, at least partially. By that, I don't mean that he shouldn't be criticized, but there always seems to be some animosity towards his coaching methods during the season. Out of the 19 years he has been a head coach in the NBA, his teams more often that not wound up hoisting the Larry O'Brien trophy at the end of the season, that is incredible.


Don't get me wrong, he's definitely in the top tier of coaches and has an arguable case for the superficial title of "best NBA coach". There really is no clear-cut best imo; its all arguable.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

croco said:


> See, that's the problem I have with the perception of Phil Jackson. People focus on the great players he has had and still has and totally forget how you still need to make it work. You can't take building a team and the chemistry that goes along with it and is essential, for granted. A lot of coaches have won championships, the difference is the continuous success he and his teams have had.
> 
> What's really strange is that it seems he still has not earned a true benefit of the doubt, at least partially. By that, I don't mean that he shouldn't be criticized, but there always seems to be some animosity towards his coaching methods during the season. Out of the 19 years he has been a head coach in the NBA, his teams more often that not wound up hoisting the Larry O'Brien trophy at the end of the season, that is incredible.


Del Harris coached both Shaq and Kobe together and they didn't win **** with him. 4 years of not winning. Jordan didn't win anything with Doug Collins. Great coaching is only responsible for 5 points (yeah I made up that stat prove me wrong) in a basketball game. That's enough to turn a good team into a great one.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

Lynx said:


> ^ lmao - you still think Kobe ran out fat and lazy butt Shaq?


He did.

Kobe told Phil that Shaq's presence would affect his decision to remain with the Lakers, and that he was tired of being a sidekick.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

whew.. i knew i smelled something..


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## Jesukki (Mar 3, 2009)

Shaq was kicked out because he pissed Jerry Buss with his 30 mil extension talk and being lazy mofo.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

ChrisRichards said:


> He did.
> 
> Kobe told Phil that Shaq's presence would affect his decision to remain with the Lakers, and that he was tired of being a sidekick.


So how did Jackson get fired during that summer? I thought Kobe hated Jackson and ran him out of town too. I can just imagine it:

Kobe throwing a fit in the locker room, picking up whatever he could find and smashing it on the ground, and everything he threw on the ground just shatters.

Jerry Buss: Now Kobe, you need to calm down, you're breaking everything in here.

Kobe: NO! I won't calm down! (smashes a gatorade cooler) I want Shaq out of town! I'm the damn man! Me! Kobe! Black Mamba! I'm an assassin!

Jerry Buss: Ok, whatever you want, just stop breaking things. NO! NOT THE PLASMA! (Kobe rips the plasma off the wall and smashes it)

Kobe: And I want to be the coach! I'm tired of telling people what to do all the time and then having someone tell then that they don't have to listen to me. (rips a shower curtain in half like a phone book)

Jerry Buss: Ok Kobe, you're the coach. We'll hire someone who's just there for appearances.

Kobe: No! I want a legend to coach the team so that people don't think that he's my patsy! (rips a phone book in half like a shower curtain)

Jerry Buss: Ok, I'll make some calls. You're the best Kobe.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

rips a phone book in half like a shower curtain? Why doesn't that make any sense to me?


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## Daniels (Jan 24, 2009)

Dornado said:


> rips a phone book in half like a shower curtain? Why doesn't that make any sense to me?


Maybe it was a really sturdy shower curtain? Because phone books are basically impossible to rip in half. I've never seen such a shower curtain, but they sound nice.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Dornado said:


> rips a phone book in half like a shower curtain? Why doesn't that make any sense to me?


 It was a simile. He previously ripped a shower curtain in half like a phone book, but that made sense and the inverse didn't?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Tragedy said:


> Oh and, you have to put Phil there.... Riley was good no doubt, but let's not forget that his Lakers team was stacked with talent also. Yeah, Phil won with great teams, but what coach who's won more than 1 title had a team that wasn't great? I'd say Phil and Riley are neck and neck as GOAT LAL coaches, but Phil is above Riley overall.... We've seen Riley sink a team for the lottery - I don't think Phil would have done that.
> 
> Oh yea, I have to say this - Jerry West is somewhat overrated. Yeah, he's one of the all time greats, and he's the logo. But what is it? 10 finals appearances and 1 ring? He wasn't even the man for that one championship IIRC.
> 
> So let's put it like this - If Kobe went to 10 Finals', and only won 1 - where would his place in LA's history be? Definitely not top 5, no matter his stats. But that's just me.


In your mind then everyone from that era that didn't play on the Celtics was overrated. Kobe's era had 6-7 different championship teams.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

Things were pretty messy in his one year absence. I'm glad he came back.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

Hyperion said:


> It was a simile. He previously ripped a shower curtain in half like a phone book, but that made sense and the inverse didn't?


You're ****ing weird.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Bartholomew Hunt said:


> You're ****ing weird.


Intelligence is beyond you.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

Ahh.. nevermind.. I'll stay on topic


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## [Myst.] (Feb 27, 2008)

Hyperion said:


> It was a simile. He previously ripped a shower curtain in half like a phone book, but that made sense and the inverse didn't?


I got it, made me chuckle.

Phil and Riley are close in terms of greatest coach in Laker history. I wasn't around for Riley's coaching days so I prefer Phil. Doubt Shaq & Kobe could've had the 3-peat without Phil despite their combined greatness.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

I can rip a phone book in half, its really not that hard.. just sayin


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

Jakain said:


> Great yet inevitable accomplishment for Phil Jackson. Imo he's not the best coach today but he's in that tier and has an arguable case for that ultimately superficial and debatable title. Blemishes like letting Kobe take too much control over the team after Shaq left and missing the playoffs stand out.


You are aware that Phil Jackson wasn't the coach the year the Lakers missed the playoffs right? Rudy T was the coach in 04-05 until he resigned midway through the season. Phil has never missed the playoffs in his entire coaching career. Also, can it really be considered a blemish letting Kobe take "too much control" of the team when that arrangement has resulted in 1 championship and 2 Finals appearances in the last 4 years? I think you're reaching here.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

Jesukki said:


> Shaq was kicked out because he pissed Jerry Buss with his 30 mil extension talk and being lazy mofo.


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/lakers/2004-10-12-jackson-book_x.htm

Jackson became exasperated with the feuding between Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal.

"At times the pettiness between the two of them can be unbelievably juvenile," he wrote.

Jackson wrote that Bryant was angry that O'Neal received allowances from the Lakers organization, but that "nobody this year, or in any year I've coached, has received more 'allowances' than Kobe Bryant."

Among those allowances was the Lakers organization's partial payment for the private jets Bryant took to Colorado for the hearings in his rape case.

Bryant complained about the kind of plane he was given to fly to Colorado, Jackson wrote, adding "He should feel fortunate that he's not footing the bill himself."

Jackson said he became conditioned to blame Bryant, even when it wasn't the player's fault.

The sexual assault charge against Bryant was dismissed last month at his accuser's request, but he still faces a lawsuit filed in Denver by the woman.

*Bryant told Jackson that O'Neal's presence on the team would affect his decision to stay with the Lakers, adding, "I'm tired of being a sidekick," Jackson wrote.*

Bryant has said he had no role in Jackson or O'Neal's departure from the team. Jackson retired, and O'Neal was traded to the Miami Heat. Buss also said the decision to trade O'Neal was made independently of Bryant.

Jackson said he had run-ins with O'Neal as well but that coaching him was "an experience I will cherish forever."


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

Hyperion said:


> So how did Jackson get fired during that summer? I thought Kobe hated Jackson and ran him out of town too. I can just imagine it:


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/lakers/2004-10-12-jackson-book_x.htm

*Jackson wrote he became so frustrated with Bryant that he told general manager Mitch Kupchak in January, "I won't coach this team next year if he is still here. He won't listen to anyone. I've had it with this kid."*


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