# Suns-Spurs IV: A New Hope?



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Suns-Spurs Game IV: A New Hope?*

SUNS 0 - 3 SPURS 
Game 4: 12:30pm Arizona Time


*SUNS
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* Starters*







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* PG: Steve Nash ___SG: Raja Bell _____SF: Grant Hill _____PF: Amare Stoudemire  _______C: Shaq *

*Bench*







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* Boris Diaw  ________Leandro Barbosa  ______Giricek  ________Rest of team*

* Coach: Mike D'Antoni:*










*SPURS*



















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* C: Tim Duncan_______ SG: Manu Ginobili ________PG: Tony Parker ____SF: Bruce Bowen _____SG: Michael Finley __Fabricio Oberto ____Kurt Thomas


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_*Everyone Else*

* Coach: Greg Popovich*


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## FreeMason Jr. (Jul 12, 2004)

Awesome. 

One thing though, Obi Wan's already taken:


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

bump for gametime.


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## nffl (Jun 25, 2006)

chicka chicka yeah phoenix suns, phoenix suns!

20-5 start hell yeah.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

They are finally hustling on the court!


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## Omega (Apr 11, 2005)

lol this is the best gamethread ive ever seen. great stuff. rep for you sir!


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## thaKEAF (Mar 8, 2004)

lol @ Diaw's picture


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

This GT is awesome :rofl:


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Stoudemire needs to keep his eyes on the ball!


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## Aylwin (Jan 29, 2007)

I'm listening in and it sounds like the refs are really trying their best to get the Spurs back in the ball game.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Aylwin said:


> I'm listening in and it sounds like the refs are really trying their best to get the Spurs back in the ball game.


There's just so much flopping, I feel bad for the refs! I haven't seen a team flop so much since 1987 European Championships. We all remember how that turned out don't we!?!


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

I may have to upgrade Diaw's pic if he keeps playing like this!


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

Poppovich could probably get some skin care tips from the Emperor..

I think the thing that makes our relationship with Diaw what it is, is games like this. Absolutely freaking brilliant, looks like he has one of the most impressive skill sets offensively in the league... but it's once every 10 games.

If he sucked all the time we probably wouldn't even care..


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

IceMan23and3 said:


> I may have to upgrade Diaw's pic if he keeps playing like this!


Or keep it the way it is, just in case.


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## AZsportsDude (Feb 8, 2008)

lol good post. saw a lot of good things out of the suns tonight...but this game seems like too much, too late...would love to be the first team in nba history to come back from 3-0 but i just dont see it happening against SA.


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## B-Roy (Feb 12, 2008)

That means game 5 is the Spurs strike back? That means Suns lose.


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## nffl (Jun 25, 2006)

The momentum and confidence (especially of struggling guys like Barbosa) alone should give us a great shot at a win in game 5 in San Antonio.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

B-Roy said:


> That means game 5 is the Spurs strike back? That means Suns lose.


Hopefully Nash's hand doesn't get chopped off by a lightsaber at least.


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

Game 5 is where the Suns let us down.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

They let me down, the way they came out in game 3.


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## Aylwin (Jan 29, 2007)

Games 2 and 3 (especially 3) were where the Suns let us down. Ironic that Diaw had such good game 4. It's like the whole team has turned into Diaw. Mediocre but every once in awhile show flashes of brilliance to remind us of the tremendous potential.

When we're on fire like that, we're unbeatable and even D'Antoni can't screw it up. But no team can be consistently that hot even with such talented players as the Suns. When the players cool down, it's the coach who helps the team win by using cunning strategy and smart tactics. I really hope this one game hasn't improved D'Antoni's chances to stay on a coach. Even if we manage to stretch this to 7 games, it won't be because of good coaching. It will be because the players got hot and took it upon themselves to fight to win.

That's the key difference between us and the Spurs. Both teams are good but the Spurs are much more disciplined and much better coached. When their players aren't shooting so well, more often than not, they will still find a way to win. I may not like their style but I certainly do admire their discipline and dedication to their system.

Everything they do seems to be part of their strategy to win:

Flopping - It's annoying but it's a defensive play. It puts pressure on the ref to make the right call or non-call. It's the same as foul baiting: drive to the hoop and pretend you've been hacked.

Complaining - The Spurs have turned this into an art form. They complain about every single call and they've learned how to do it without getting T's. They probably know already the limits of every referee and can control themselves accordingly. It may not make any difference to that one call but it probably has an influence on the refs through the course of the game.

Being rough - Apart from Bowen who is down right dangerous, physical play is meant to intimidate the opponent and/or make him lose his cool. You know the Spurs are going to do this. Especially in the playoffs and most especially when they're down. Last night was a good example. The game is lost, starters are on the bench, what else can you do but prepare for the next game. So why not let the bench cause some trouble and hopefully take out some starters from the other team. It worked last year and it looks like it almost worked again.

Complaining to the league - Well if it works, why not? Last night, it seems the refs were particularly keen on paying attention to Shaq's free throw shooting and defensive position. The Spurs got a waived basket and a few technical free throws. If the game is tight, a few points here and there may make the difference.

I'm not saying I approve or disapprove with how the Spurs play. They do what they have to to win. And it's a proven strategy that gets results. I just admire the fact that they have a strategy, they stick to it and it works.

What's the Suns' strategy? Run fast and shoot the ball? I know we can have something much better than that but it requires a new coach.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Aylwin said:


> G
> What's the Suns' strategy? Run fast and shoot the ball? I know we can have something much better than that but it requires a new coach.


Bring in Skinner and Marks a few mins to give hard (non-flagrant) fouls to Manu and Parker. Should be a new strategy. I'm shocked no one tries this.


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## Aylwin (Jan 29, 2007)

Dissonance19 said:


> Bring in Skinner and Marks a few mins to give hard (non-flagrant) fouls to Manu and Parker. Should be a new strategy. I'm shocked no one tries this.


Exactly! A good team should never allow such uncontested forays to the basket. 

In game 3, with Parker hot like that, we needed someone to stick to him like glue and an enforcer in the middle to make him think twice about waltzing to the basket. I would have probably put DJ on him. He's young, fast and can defend. Sure he's a rookie but if I were coach DJ would've played enough during the regular season to be ready.


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## TheTruth34 (Jul 22, 2006)

Arclite said:


> Hopefully Nash's hand doesn't get chopped off by a lightsaber at least.


lmao
what we're gonna see is exactly what we saw in 05 when the spurs went up
3-0 and then phoenix won a game and everyone was like yeaaaaah! we're coming back...wrong. SAN ANTONIO is Phoenix's kryptonite just like the Lakers were to the Kings and thats why no one remembers them now. In this era Phoenix will *never* get a ring.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Aylwin said:


> Exactly! A good team should never allow such uncontested forays to the basket.
> 
> In game 3, with Parker hot like that, we needed someone to stick to him like glue and an enforcer in the middle to make him think twice about waltzing to the basket. I would have probably put DJ on him. He's young, fast and can defend. Sure he's a rookie but if I were coach DJ would've played enough during the regular season to be ready.


It's hustle plain and simple. You lose by 5, you can blame the coach, but if you lose by 20, that's on the players. Plain and simple. The Suns have mailed in too many games this season. They don't hustle for the loose balls, they don't get on their guys on defense. There are no coaching schemes to make up for lack of hustle.


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## The Hedo Show (Mar 31, 2008)

Dissonance19 said:


> Bring in Skinner and Marks a few mins to give hard (non-flagrant) fouls to Manu and Parker. Should be a new strategy. I'm shocked no one tries this.


I like your thinking.. definately could be a momentum changer in the Suns favor. Any smart, winning coach would execute such a strategy in my opinion. Take a note from Greg Popovich Mike, Robert Horry slammin your point guard into the scorers table in garbage time in the 07 playoffs.. ended up working in the Spurs favor tremendously.


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## Aylwin (Jan 29, 2007)

S.T.A.T.1 said:


> Any smart, winning coach would execute such a strategy in my opinion.


Well that's our problem right there.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

S.T.A.T.1 said:


> I like your thinking.. definately could be a momentum changer in the Suns favor. Any smart, winning coach would execute such a strategy in my opinion. Take a note from Greg Popovich Mike, Robert Horry slammin your point guard into the scorers table in garbage time in the 07 playoffs.. ended up working in the Spurs favor tremendously.


It's a classless move imo and should never be done. Unless you believe that they are soft and would be rattled by that. However, San Antonio is not Dallas. The don't get rattled from that. They get rattled when they get out muscled and hustled for the ball.


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## CSILASVEGAS (Jan 14, 2006)

i have this strange feeling that the suns can pull off the impossible and be the first team to get out of a 0-3 hole. a win in san antonio in game 5 can really turn this series around. the western teams are just so balanced right now that seedings are meaningless.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

somebody get boris diaw a light saber


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Aylwin said:


> What's the Suns' strategy? Run fast and shoot the ball? I know we can have something much better than that but it requires a new coach.


You know nothing about basketball if that's what you think the Suns' offense is. It's very similar to the triangle with a lot of back screens and side to side swinging of the ball. It is definitely predicated on the pick and roll, but after that it's purely triangle.


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## Aylwin (Jan 29, 2007)

IceMan23and3 said:


> You know nothing about basketball if that's what you think the Suns' offense is. It's very similar to the triangle with a lot of back screens and side to side swinging of the ball. It is definitely predicated on the pick and roll, but after that it's purely triangle.


I'm always amused by your posts. You're a very loyal fan. I'll give you that. 

I say they run and shoot. You say something that sounds much nicer. Same difference, if you ask me.  As usual, you miss my point. I was referring to the Suns' strategy and you respond with the Suns' offense. Now I may not know much about basketball but what little I do know is this:

1) When you have ball possession, you try to score. This could involve fancy triangle back screens while swinging the ball from side-to-side on the pick and roll... or something like that.

2) When the other team has ball possession, you try to prevent them from scoring.

and 3) It's probably a good idea to have a strategy for both 1) *and* 2). Not just 1).

Furthermore, in my opinion, a good strategy will not only include offensive and defensive plays. It also includes:

- rotation management
- player development through off *and* on court play
- player and overall team discipline
- general game and playoff tactics depending on the opponent

Those are just general categories. There's a lot more if we go into detail. But hey, what do I know about basketball?


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Aylwin said:


> I'm always amused by your posts. You're a very loyal fan. I'll give you that.
> 
> I say they run and shoot. You say something that sounds much nicer. Same difference, if you ask me.  As usual, you miss my point. I was referring to the Suns' strategy and you respond with the Suns' offense. Now I may not know much about basketball but what little I do know is this:
> 
> ...


You said that their offense was "run fast and shoot the ball" I told you differently. When your team is a championship caliber team, you don't develop rookies when you're going for it all. Not a single team that is going for it all this year is fielding rookies in its core rotation. I do agree that they should get playing time, but not if they aren't ready to contribute. Most rookies don't get out of their first contract, that's not the coach's fault, it's just how it is. 

The rotation is fine. None of the Suns players are logging more than 35mpg on a consistent basis and that's really good. Defense is not about schemes and tactics. This aint the NFL. It takes two things to play good defense: communication and hustle. How often has the ball bounced into the hands of their opponent after a good defensive stand? A lot. That's all from hustle. You don't have to be a great basketball player to play great defense, you just gotta hustle. That's the primary rule of defense taught all the way down to the little leaguers. There isn't a single defense that has not been run in the NBA. Every coach has seen it all and every coach has tried it all. The Suns do play good defense when they want to. How much can D'Antoni yell to his guys to play defense? He is so busy during games! he's yelling at Diaw, his team, Barbosa, the refs....


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## Tiz (May 9, 2005)

IceMan23and3 said:


> You said that their offense was "run fast and shoot the ball" I told you differently. When your team is a championship caliber team, you don't develop rookies when you're going for it all. Not a single team that is going for it all this year is fielding rookies in its core rotation. I do agree that they should get playing time, but not if they aren't ready to contribute. Most rookies don't get out of their first contract, that's not the coach's fault, it's just how it is.
> 
> The rotation is fine. None of the Suns players are logging more than 35mpg on a consistent basis and that's really good. Defense is not about schemes and tactics. This aint the NFL. It takes two things to play good defense: communication and hustle. How often has the ball bounced into the hands of their opponent after a good defensive stand? A lot. That's all from hustle. You don't have to be a great basketball player to play great defense, you just gotta hustle. That's the primary rule of defense taught all the way down to the little leaguers. There isn't a single defense that has not been run in the NBA. Every coach has seen it all and every coach has tried it all. The Suns do play good defense when they want to. How much can D'Antoni yell to his guys to play defense? He is so busy during games! he's yelling at Diaw, his team, Barbosa, the refs....


well said. as you said coaches have seen it all on the offensive and defensive ends of the court. it is just a matter of identifying each players strengths and utilizing plays and calls that take the biggest advantage of those. and during the course of the game changing up those schemes to keep the opponent guessing.

for SA they know their strength lies in the pick & roll with parker and ginobli and duncan in the post. that is what they are going to stick with. it is just a matter of having the defense adapt to this and having the Suns players commit to playing 100% on defense on every possession. it seems that they have had the most success in slowing down the pick & roll when they go to the zone.

i think early on with D'Antoni we saw more of his Euro experience come through in the plays he was setting up. but over the years he has toned that down a bit.

all the offensive and defensive schemes out there. i think the easiest explanation i have ever heard (and this may have been from Doug Collins or some other coach/commentator). and I will paraphrase here. "Basketball is a game of runs, the key is to extend your runs as long as possible and limit your opponents". that simple.


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## Jabroni (Jun 4, 2007)

Disappointing loss. Costly TO's, missed free throws. But despite all of that. I really do still love this team.


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## Aylwin (Jan 29, 2007)

IceMan23and3 said:


> You said that their offense was "run fast and shoot the ball" I told you differently.


My exact words: "_What's the Suns' *strategy*? Run fast and shoot the ball?_"

You picked up on the offense part but missed my point about the team strategy being mostly concentrated on offense.



IceMan23and3 said:


> When your team is a championship caliber team, you don't develop rookies when you're going for it all. *Not a single team that is going for it all this year is fielding rookies in its core rotation.*


Detroit Pistons: Rodney Stuckey - 15th pick, 19mpg in 57 games
Boston Celtics: Glen Davis - 35th pick, 13.6mpg in 69 games



IceMan23and3 said:


> I do agree that they should get playing time, but not if they aren't ready to contribute.


Determining a player's readiness is the job of the coach. It's a subjective opinion. You trust our coach, so you trust his opinion. I don't trust him as much as you do.



IceMan23and3 said:


> The rotation is fine. None of the Suns players are logging more than 35mpg on a consistent basis and that's really good.


When I say "rotation management", it's more than just counting each player's minutes. It's deciding when to put someone in and when to take them out. It's part of game tactics. It depends on the situation at any given point in the game. 




IceMan23and3 said:


> Defense is not about schemes and tactics. This aint the NFL. It takes two things to play good defense: communication and hustle.


Wow! I *REALLY* know nothing about basketball! My idea of defense is completely different. I was under the impression that it takes a lot more than just communication and hustle. 

There's the zone, the man-to-man and the trap to name a few basic "schemes". And deciding which scheme to use through the course of the game, I'd call that part of tactics. Each defensive scheme needs to be practiced over and over again so each player knows where he needs to be and what he needs to do depending on the coach's call and the situation during the play.

Everyone on the team (players and coachs) need to analyze and practice how to defend against certain players, certain matchups and certain teams. For example, depending on the matchup or situation they need to know if they should go on top of screens or behind them. Is this guy a jump shooter or does he take it too the hoop? That may help determine how much distance I should leave between him and me.

I could probably go on and on about defense but what's the point? I know nothing about basketball so whatever I say is nonsense anyway. 



IceMan23and3 said:


> The Suns do play good defense when they want to. How much can D'Antoni yell to his guys to play defense? He is so busy during games! he's yelling at Diaw, his team, Barbosa, the refs....


If I were D'Antoni, I'd spend less time yelling during the game and more time working on defensive schemes and tactics during practice. But I see now that you and D'Antoni think exactly alike. Defense is all about communication and hustle. D'Antoni is busy "communicating" while the players a busy hustling around like headless chickens. 

If you ask me, no amount of effort and hustle can help you if you don't know where to be, when to be there, what to do when you're there and how to do it. And it's the coach's defensive strategy that dictates the where, when, what and how. But that's just my ignorant opinion.


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