# A Tangent Universe just opened up...



## Elton (May 26, 2007)

and we have just been transported back to the 2007 NBA draft, where a 22 year old Arvydas Sabonis has entered his name and become an instant contender for the top pick. Portland has the #1 pick and has plastered the metro area with freeway billboards imploring residents to "honk once" for Oden and "twice" for Sabonis. 

This Tangent Universe is highly unstable in that both players are projected to be durable and injury free. The artifact that initiated this rip in the space/time continuum was identified to be a Larry O'Brien trophy that fell from Paul Allen's jet and crashed through the roof of the Blazer's practice facility (in the current stable universe) and killed Oden during his first full contact workout after recovering from mf surgery. Misery abounds in Portland's stable universe, but the Tangent Universe has created an incredible draft day dillemma for the Trail Blazers. 

So, what we have is a choice: a durable Oden or Sabonis.

Who do you pick? 

I take Sabonis. 

(I watched Donnie Darko last night...sorry for the dorky scifi stuff)


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

A healthy Sabonis? 

Sabonis.


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## Webster's Dictionary (Feb 26, 2004)

Wow... Healthy Oden or Healthy Sabonis? I don't know!?!

(Webster's Dictionary has jumped off a bridge and into an endless abyss...)


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## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

Sabas, but only because I already know what he can do when he is young and healthy. After ten years of seeing Oden, it might be different. 

BTW, this should be a poll.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

This is tough. Oden will almost certainly be a better defender, but Sabas is better at EVERYTHING else, including rebounding. And oh those passes. It has to be Sabas.

HOWEVER: he would be surprisingly slender (at least surprising to us Portland fans) because he bulked up considerably in later years, allegedly because of steroids which allegedly contributed to his achilles injuries. But that might be total fiction...


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Injury free and both 20 I take Sabas easily.


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## gogreen (May 24, 2006)

October can't come soon enough. So, now our lineup is Drexeler, Blake, Outlaw, LA and Sabonis.

Oden is a game changer on the defensive side of the ball. I'll take Oden.

I always liked Sabas but I think we are splitting hairs on this one.

I vote for who ever is healthy ?

Ok, It's 1976, this red headed step child from UCLA is in the draft. There is this Russian kid and some old guy from Indiana who says he is 19, yeah right............


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Sabas would probably make my top 5 all time prospect @ 22 list, but of course he had the red flag drinking problem that some will have you believe Portlanders care a lot about. I understand that they still call a 5th of Vodka a Sabas in Lithuania. 

STOMP


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

STOMP said:


> Sabas would probably make my top 5 all time prospect @ 22 list, but of course he had the red flag drinking problem that some will have you believe Portlanders care a lot about. I understand that they still call a 5th of Vodka a Sabas in Lithuania.


Are you sure that isn't named after his wife?


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

Since we never really got to see Sabas in his prime (I certainly wasn't watching a lot of russian hoops in the 90s), and mostly have anecdotal evidence that he was possibly the greatest center to never play in the NBA, until he was the busted up, fat ***, version of Arvydas, I guess I'd have to say I'd take a healthy 22 year old Sabas if there was a guarantee that there'd be no funny business from Vladimir Putin keeping "his" player home.

I may completely change my tune once I see the kind of player that GO can be in the NBA.


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

So what if he is healthy. He was healthy at 20 in his career already, and then broke down. 

Secondly, he never had the toughness necessary to do whats necessary to get over the top. When Rasheed threw the towel at him, I agreed. Don't get me wrong, I loved him while here, but he was not tough enough to get a team over the top.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Oden. As much as I think Sabonis was a great, great center in his prime, I think Oden will be better. It seems guaranteed that he will be a top defensive player. His offense is not guaranteed, but having watched him, I think he's going to be tremendous on offense. His footwork is sophisticated, he has fantastic athleticism, he has great hands and his free throw shooting proved he has good shooting skills. I think there's no question he'll develop a solid mid-range jumper.

Sabonis was a much better shooter and passer, but I'm not sure he was better in the post than Oden will be. And Sabonis definitely wasn't anywhere near as talented on defense.


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## ebott (Jan 7, 2003)

Dude, love the dorky SciFi stuff.

Arvydas Sabonis is arguably the best basketball player to ever play the game. He played ten years of professional basketball and his knees were wrecked by the time he made it over here. Even then he was one of the only players that could handle his own against Shaq in his prime. The man could do everything on both sides of the court and this is without a shred of athletic ability left. I can't even imagine what he would have been able to do in his prime.

If we were to take all the great basketball players and have a draft for them in their prime I would pick Sabas first.

Talking about it makes me wish I had a video of the 1988 gold medal game.

We've all got high hopes for Greg. But I don't think he'll end up being part of the best basketball player of all time argument like Arvydas.


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## Webster's Dictionary (Feb 26, 2004)

hasoos said:


> So what if he is healthy. He was healthy at 20 in his career already, and then broke down.
> 
> Secondly, he never had the toughness necessary to do whats necessary to get over the top. When Rasheed threw the towel at him, I agreed. Don't get me wrong, I loved him while here, but he was not tough enough to get a team over the top.


By the towel throwing time, I think Sabonis had just taken too much punishment to be able to stand up to Shaq anymore (not to mention he'd get run through and get a foul on him) but earlier in his career with us, between 97-2000 I remember him taking Shaq out of a few games.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

ebott said:


> We've all got high hopes for Greg. But I don't think he'll end up being part of the best basketball player of all time argument like Arvydas.


With all due respect, I don't think Sabonis is part of the "best basketball player of all-time argument," either, for 99.99% of the basketball-related community. Until your post, the most I've ever heard anyone argue was that Sabonis was a top-five center of all-time.

I think the amount of people that would seriously consider selecting Sabonis first in a draft of all players who have ever played basketball can likely be counted on one (human*) hand.


*Since this thread has a sci-fi vibe, it's important to close off the "million fingered alien hand" loop-hole.


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## Miksaid (Mar 21, 2005)

Every living creature on earth dies alone.

I would pick Oden, for the mere fact that by dying, he saved the universe.

[insert "Mad World" by Gary Jules]


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

meru said:


> Are you sure that isn't named after his wife?


yup... you know what they say about birds of a feather though.

Sabas was well known as a big partyer, but back in his day that probably wasn't the damning offense that it is in Portlandia these days. Supposedly he was completely bombed when he fell down some stairs and ruptured his achilles following a Euro championship in his early 20's. Complications from that surgery (which was botched badly) led to the physical limitations that followed.

STOMP


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## Elton (May 26, 2007)

Miksaid said:


> Every living creature on earth dies alone.
> 
> I would pick Oden, for the mere fact that by dying, he saved the universe.
> 
> [insert "Mad World" by Gary Jules]


:biggrin: Donnie Darko fan? Me too.


Some great points made in this thread, and I have to admit that my opinion has been tipped a little more towards Oden.

To have a healthy Sabonis in his prime would be like having Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Larry Bird in one player. Greg Oden might be more like a 'Zo/Shaq hybrid. 

One would be a winning finesse player with decent D while the other would be an overwhelming force of nature with some decent skills.

Tough call but I still gotta take Sabas. We'll have to consider this question again after a season or two with Oden.


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## Miksaid (Mar 21, 2005)

You know, they're making a Donnie Darko sequel? Revolving around Samantha Darko. Didn't see that coming.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

Silly question.

Sabas is the Greatest Basketball Player to ever play the game.

Nobody else is even close.


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## Elton (May 26, 2007)

Miksaid said:


> You know, they're making a Donnie Darko sequel? Revolving around Samantha Darko. Didn't see that coming.


Sigh...yes, sadly. The almighty dollar strikes again!



MARIS61 said:


> Silly question.
> 
> Sabas is the Greatest Basketball Player to ever play the game.
> 
> Nobody else is even close.


Deep down, that's what I think too, but we've been robbed of that reality due to those damn injuries and the relative obscurity of Euro basketball (to Americans) in the '90s. I still maintain that he was one of the most gifted players every to play the game, and it was even more amazing to see that talent in a 7'3" giant. 

I suppose it's fair to say he's the greatest "could've, should've, would've" player in the history of basketball. Maybe we'll get to see that alternate version of Sabonis' career in the next life.


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## ebott (Jan 7, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> With all due respect, I don't think Sabonis is part of the "best basketball player of all-time argument," either, for 99.99% of the basketball-related community. Until your post, the most I've ever heard anyone argue was that Sabonis was a top-five center of all-time.


Really? Cause I've heard it several times. 

Granted, it was only one game, but from all reports Sabas destroyed David Robinson in the 88 Olympics. I expect he would have done similarly well against the rest of the league.

He was more than just a center. He could score from anywhere on the court. He could pass like a point guard. He could handle the rock. He surpassed his position like only Michael Jordan has been able to do.



> I think the amount of people that would seriously consider selecting Sabonis first in a draft of all players who have ever played basketball can likely be counted on one (human*) hand.


So who would you take in front of him?

I'd happily take him over Jordan, Russell, Wilt and Magic.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Here are the "Tendex" ratings for Sabonis's rookie year ('95-'96) - the year that Damon Stoudamire was awarded ROY:


```
<center><h3> NBA 95-96 <a href="Tendex.html">MyTendex</a> Player Rankings </h3></center>
<pre>

               MyTendex     (min 49 games)      MyTendex/48min (min 23.0 min/gm)
        Player             Team MyTend          Player             Team Tend/48
  1) robinson,david        San   32.10     1) robinson,david        San  41.85
  2) olajuwon,hakeem       Hou   29.86     2) jordan,michael        Chi  37.38
  3) jordan,michael        Chi   29.34     3) o'neal,shaquille      Orl  37.18
  4) malone,karl           Uta   28.62     4) olajuwon,hakeem       Hou  36.90
  5) o'neal,shaquille      Orl   27.92     5) malone,karl           Uta  36.19
  6) barkley,charles       Pho   27.42     6) <b>SABONIS,arvydas</b>       Por  36.05
  7) hill,grant            Det   25.88     7) barkley,charles       Pho  35.50
  8) hardaway,anferne      Orl   25.30     8) kemp,shawn            Sea  33.92
  9) mourning,alonzo       Mia   24.88     9) johnson,kevin         Pho  33.08
 10) johnson,kevin         Pho   24.70    10) hardaway,anferne      Orl  33.02
  ** Avg for Position = 11.09.             ** Avg for Position = 20.12.

 
Note: the current MyTendex formula is:
 (PTS - FGmsd - (FTmsd/2) + 1.25*st + 1.25*as + bl
  + reb - 1.25*to - tc - 2*ff - pf/2) /
                GamesPlayed)
</pre>
```
("Tendex" is Doug Steele's version of PER - or rather it should be the other way round, because he's been doing it for YEARS.)

Pretty good company Sabas is keeping, huh? In his ROOKIE year. With basically wrecked legs.


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## ebott (Jan 7, 2003)

meru said:


> Here are the "Tendex" ratings for Sabonis's rookie year ('95-'96) - the year that Damon Stoudamire was awarded ROY:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


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## Elton (May 26, 2007)

ebott said:


> Granted, it was only one game, but from all reports Sabas destroyed David Robinson in the 88 Olympics.


He did. My brother-in-law was at that game and he also watched him one other time at the Seoul Olympics. He's shown me some pics he took when Sabas was being mobbed on the floor after the medal ceremony. Too bad he didn't have a decent zoom on his cam back then!


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

ebott said:


> Really? Cause I've heard it several times.
> 
> Granted, it was only one game, but from all reports Sabas destroyed David Robinson in the 88 Olympics. I expect he would have done similarly well against the rest of the league.


this is simply urban legend. robinson outscored and outrebounded sabonis. and robinson was out of college 1 year already and hadn't yet played an nba game.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

ebott said:


> Granted, it was only one game, but from all reports Sabas destroyed David Robinson in the 88 Olympics.


That's a bit misleading. That was an extremely young, raw David Robinson...quite far from a prime David Robinson. And it wasn't a destruction, he simply arguably outplayed Robinson.



> So who would you take in front of him?
> 
> I'd happily take him over Jordan, Russell, Wilt and Magic.


I'd definitely take Michael Jordan, Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Hakeem Olajuwon, Kareem Absul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird before him. There would be no question, in my opinion, of those players. 

After that, I could at least consider a prime Sabonis along with the likes of Bill Russell, Karl Malone, Jerry West, Tim Duncan, David Robinson.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

As in the "Greatest" thread, this isn't a question of who played in the NBA longest, how many titles they had...

It's a question of the most skilled, talented and effective player.

All that other stuff depends hugely on his various teammates, coaches, and also in Sabas's case, International politics.

I saw him destroy Robinson in the Olympics, and frankly every single player he opposed for over a decade. My cuz in Canada has dozens of videotapes of his games when he was in his 20's. I've never seen ANYONE who comes close at all.

It's a shame we had such feeble-minded, overly-cautious, and cowardly coaches when we finally got him over here. We passed on the opportunity for several titles IMO, and in Sabas's (who maintained he was quite fit to play much, much more).


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> With all due respect, I don't think Sabonis is part of the "best basketball player of all-time argument," either, for 99.99% of the basketball-related community. Until your post, the most I've ever heard anyone argue was that Sabonis was a top-five center of all-time.


prior to ebott's post I'd called him one of the top 5 prospects at 22 years old of all time. I recall Walton calling him tied for top 20 year old center (with Kareem) that he'd ever seen... he put Greg alone at #3.

STOMP


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

STOMP said:


> prior to ebott's post I'd called him one of the top 5 prospects at 22 years old of all time. I recall Walton calling him tied for top 20 year old center (with Kareem) that he'd ever seen... he put Greg alone at #3.


I remember Walton saying the same thing.

However, a top prospect is not the same as top player once their careers are done. Would you consider Sabonis a serious candidate for best basketball player ever? I admit that I'd be surprised if you did. I was being honest when I said I'd never heard anyone, even Sabonis' biggest supporters, claim he was the best ever, prior to this thread.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mwuNWNSgeQ


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> I was being honest when I said I'd never heard anyone, even Sabonis' biggest supporters, claim he was the best ever, prior to this thread.


Try mineral oil on a Q-tip to get rid of that nasty ear-wax buildup.:biggrin:


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

To hard of a question. I just can't do it until i see Oden play in the NBA.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

MARIS61 said:


> Try mineral oil on a Q-tip to get rid of that nasty ear-wax buildup.:biggrin:


I don't think hearing quality is the problem, especially on a text forum; I think I just hadn't run into the right delusional people.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

MARIS61 said:


> As in the "Greatest" thread, this isn't a question of who played in the NBA longest, how many titles they had...
> 
> It's a question of the most skilled, talented and effective player.
> 
> ...


he faced robinson in '86 and '88 and was outscored and rebounded both times. usually that doesn't qualify as destroying. sabonis scored 13 points in the '88 olympic game.

and that's the best player sabonis faced in his prime. a david robinson who just emerged as a top talent ('86) and a david robinson who just had a year off from competitive basketball ('88). how can we assess anyone as remotely the best ever if they didn't even come close to performing against even the top talent of their own era? 

he never displayed a devastating back to the basket game. he had a collection of skills. ralph sampson was his (older) american counterpart at one point ('83), and he didn't translate into the pro game as well as expected. sabonis had a better natural feel for the game, but the combination of skills was still untested.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

Here's what Sabas did against Robinson, Shaq, Duncan and all your other supposed elite NBA players...while standing on one leg.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/arvydas_sabonis/index.html


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

MARIS61 said:


> Here's what Sabas did against Robinson, Shaq, Duncan and all your other supposed elite NBA players...while standing on one leg.
> 
> http://www.nba.com/playerfile/arvydas_sabonis/index.html


all that after you personally saw him destroy robinson in the olympics.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> That's a bit misleading. That was an extremely young, raw David Robinson...quite far from a prime David Robinson. And it wasn't a destruction, he simply arguably outplayed Robinson.


Nice try.

Robinson is a whopping 7-1/2 months younger than Sabas, and as you point out had the quite considerable advantage of playing in college and learning from the best coaches in the world.

Sabas taught himself for the most part from watching clips of American basketball, as the knowledge of the game was quite limited in Europe at the time.

As far as in their Olympic head to heads, destruction is an understatement. The games are out there so I suggest you watch them before you continue showcasing your naivete' of Olympic basketball history. Robinson was thoroughly embarrassed and admitted as much at the time. The media ran stories re-assessing whether DR was all that after all.

DR got points because he was given the ball continually and he shot it when he got it. Sabas moved the ball around his squad so quick and so often it left DR's head spinning.

You often seem to think basketball is merely rebounds and points, but the greatest players are the ones who make even their average teammates seem invincible. Aside from Sabas, Bill Walton, Bird and Magic, I really can't think of anyone else who has ever done that to such a convincing degree.

Sabas played against many, many of the best players in the world at the time. DR was definitely not the only, or even the best. Nearly every NBA player who came from Europe back then had toiled against Sabas to get that good. Americans just didn't know about them. The NBA hadn't discovered the wealth of talent over there back then but that didn's make them any less talented as players.

And he played against every country's best every year in international games, world championships, and the Olympics, while DR, Shaq, and your other heroes played in a fixed bogus league where the referees paved their path for them each night by letting them foul without fear of being called for it each and every time they went on the court.

Here's some future NBA'ers he crushed in 88:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball_at_the_1988_Summer_Olympics

Truth be told, we'll never know if most of our NBA heroes are even for real, or just "good" players who were created by the media machine and carried to "greatness" by gamblers, cheaters and a league fixated on marketing stars.

I stopped believing NBA game results over a decade ago after taping and replaying calls from most of a season of Blazers games.

On top of everything else, he has personally contributed more time, effort and money to the development of the game of basketball than any of the aforementioned stars, making it a national pasttime in his home country, financing and running a team, and teaching the game to countless young players.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

Getting back to Sabas/Oden, I doubt Greg will ever approach that kind of completeness as a player. He'll certainly eclipse anything DR has done though, and that's awesome since we've got him.

The only player I could compare to Sabas in his entirety would be Bird. The rest all had weaknesses or shortcomings of one sort or another.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

Here he is reclaiming the European MVP award at the ripe old age of 40!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY7zZaMLLFg&feature=related


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> I remember Walton saying the same thing.
> 
> *However, a top prospect is not the same as top player once their careers are done. Would you consider Sabonis a serious candidate for best basketball player ever?* I admit that I'd be surprised if you did. I was being honest when I said I'd never heard anyone, even Sabonis' biggest supporters, claim he was the best ever, prior to this thread.


This Tangent Universe thread is about who you'd like to have as a 22 year old. Sabas had physical gifts and game that pretty much no one could/can match. He didn't have to suffer injuries. He certainly didn't have to get drunk and fall down a flight of stairs or have his Surgeon leave gauze in his leg causing the massive infection that greatly reduced his mobility. His career was pretty great as is, but it is not nearly what it could have been. I wouldn't rate his career accomplishments anywhere close to the top 5 of all time, but if I were able to select any center at age 22 to join my favorite club, I'd probably choose him. 

STOMP


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

STOMP said:


> This Tangent Universe thread is about who you'd like to have as a 22 year old. Sabas had physical gifts and game that pretty much no one could/can match. He didn't have to suffer injuries. He certainly didn't have to get drunk and fall down a flight of stairs or have his Surgeon leave gauze in his leg causing the massive infection that greatly reduced his mobility.


Yes, that's true, but I wasn't talking about career value. Even at his peak (granted, I'm really just going off limited footage and accounts) I wouldn't select him ahead of at least the top eight NBA players of all-time (in my estimation).

But I will grant that one can't know for sure whether he was the best ever. I just think it is unlikely, since the people with the basketball gifts of a Jordan or Chamberlain are so exceedingly rare.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

MARIS61 said:


> Nice try.
> 
> Robinson is a whopping 7-1/2 months younger than Sabas, and as you point out had the quite considerable advantage of playing in college and learning from the best coaches in the world.
> 
> ...


That was definitely a nice, irrational rant.

I'll respond to the only part that was relatively coherent: I didn't say Robinson was far younger than Sabonis. I said the Robinson that Sabonis arguably outplayed (far from destroyed) was nowhere near his prime. Sabonis may not have been in his prime yet, either, but the idea that Sabonis dismantled a top-tier Hall of Famer isn't remotely true.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Yes, that's true, but I wasn't talking about career value. Even at his peak (granted, I'm really just going off limited footage and accounts) I wouldn't select him ahead of at least the top eight NBA players of all-time (in my estimation).
> 
> But I will grant that one can't know for sure whether he was the best ever. I just think it is unlikely, since the people with the basketball gifts of a Jordan or Chamberlain are so exceedingly rare.


Jordan played in a fixed league that tailored it's rules and it's officiating to serve him as it's #1 advertising asset, and Wilt was extremely limited "giftwise" but fortunate to play against mostly talentless scrubs half his size.

In today's league Wilt = Mark Eaton.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Yes, that's true, but I wasn't talking about career value. Even at his peak (granted, I'm really just going off limited footage and accounts) I wouldn't select him ahead of at least the top eight NBA players of all-time (in my estimation).
> 
> But I will grant that one can't know for sure whether he was the best ever. I just think it is unlikely, since the people with the basketball gifts of a Jordan or Chamberlain are so exceedingly rare.


When Sabas first came to the Blazers it was for medical treatment/therapy. The team used the opportunity to put him through a full physical as well. Though he claimed to never have lifted weights, he broke all of the Blazers strength records that day. He could easily dunk from behind the FT line and run with guards. He could shoot the lights out from anywhere and was a supreme passer. Of course size wise he dwarfs Wilt. Has anyone since even been compared to a young Sabonis? He's about as rare as they come IMO.

STOMP


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> That was definitely a nice, irrational rant.
> 
> I'll respond to the only part that was relatively coherent: I didn't say Robinson was far younger than Sabonis. I said the Robinson that Sabonis arguably outplayed (far from destroyed) was nowhere near his prime. Sabonis may not have been in his prime yet, either, but the idea that Sabonis dismantled a top-tier Hall of Famer isn't remotely true.


I re-read it and you're blowing hot air. It is clear, concise, and supported by documented facts. Apparently, and we already know this from past debates, anyone who disagrees with you must be irrational.

I'll answer the only part you braved a response to by pointing out you're twisting people's words again, as you always resort to when we debate. It's a bad habit, insulting, and you should try to overcome it. You'd gain credibility.

Neither I, nor anyone else in this thread said anything at all about how "Sabonis dismantled a top-tier Hall of Famer". I said Sabas destroyed and embarrassed DR. Even though Sabas was less experienced at the time and basically self-taught. Even though DR had a team that included at least 8 future NBA players. It's indisputable. He blocked him, he stole from him, he passed over him and around him for assists, he freakin' posterized him like I've never seen a center get posterized, then he went on to get 20 and 15 winning the Gold Medal, leaving USA to scrap for the Bronze and slink out of town like beaten dogs.

Arvydas Sabonis was THE REASON the USA created the Dream Team. They simply couldn't handle being embarrassed like that ever again.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

MARIS61 said:


> I re-read it and you're blowing hot air. It is clear, concise, and supported by documented facts. Apparently, and we already know this from past debates, anyone who disagrees with you must be irrational.


Not everyone. Just you, in this case. It *is* irrational to follow a competitive league you are convinced is fixed.

Your particular brand of hypocrisy in amusing. You can call me "naive," but my calling you "irrational" is insulting and unpardonable.



> I'll answer the only part you braved a response to by pointing out you're twisting people's words again, as you always resort to when we debate. It's a bad habit, insulting, and you should try to overcome it. You'd gain credibility.


I've never twisted your words. You've just never been able to support your claims.


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## The Professional Fan (Nov 5, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> *I don't think hearing quality is the problem, especially on a text forum*


lmao! That literally made me laugh out loud. Not LOL.....but laugh out loud.

BTW, I really miss Sabonis. He was a top 5 center in the NBA (during his NBA career), and he could have been more. For the record, I would never say he is/was/could have been the best player in NBA history. But he could have been one of the greats. I have no doubt about that.


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## The Professional Fan (Nov 5, 2003)

MARIS61 said:


> Getting back to Sabas/Oden, I doubt Greg will ever approach that kind of completeness as a player. He'll certainly eclipse anything DR has done though, and that's awesome since we've got him.
> 
> The only player I could compare to Sabas in his entirety would be Bird. The rest all had weaknesses or shortcomings of one sort or another.


I do agree that Oden will never approach the Sabas level of completeness, but Oden will do something that Sabas never did in the NBA - DOMINATE. 

Question: is there one player on Earth that isn't less complete that Shaq?

Kind of kidding. But you get my point. 

Oden will be sufficient at enough, and dominating at enough, to be completely DOMINATING. Sabas never dominated the NBA. It's not to say that he couldn't have. But we have no real, hard evidence that he could. Oden will prove that he can. And this discussion, as totally entertaining as it is for August, will be dead.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Not everyone. Just you, in this case. It *is* irrational to follow a competitive league you are convinced is fixed.


*I DON'T follow the NBA AT ALL.* I watch Blazers games, because I like to watch the talented/skilled/creative players, and I have some inbred homerism in me. I never watch non-Blazers games. I haven't seen a playoff game since Weakcheeks badly fumbled the Dallas series.



Minstrel said:


> Your particular brand of hypocrisy in amusing. You can call me "naive," but my calling you "irrational" is insulting and unpardonable.


You demonstrated your naivete' by arguing about a player you know little about. I said nothing about insulting (okay, I said twisting someone's words is insulting because it is, but calling me irrational is just weak) or unpardonable (oops! you twisted my words again), merely that you were avoiding points I made because you could not dispute them effectively. I'm pretty sure you couldn't insult me or hurt my feelings if you tried. This is the internet after all, and not the real world.



Minstrel said:


> I've never twisted your words. You've just never been able to support your claims.


As I said, (in addition to insulting and unpardonable), neither I, nor anyone else in this thread said anything at all about how "Sabonis dismantled a *top-tier Hall of Famer*". If that ain't twisting I don't know what is.

No hard feelings. eace: I'd be shocked if we ever agreed on player assessments anyway. We like different aspects of talent and rate our players using different measurements. I just had to get some posting going today to distract from the pain of my root canal. :azdaja:


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

The Professional Fan said:


> I do agree that Oden will never approach the Sabas level of completeness, but Oden will do something that Sabas never did in the NBA - DOMINATE.
> 
> Question: is there one player on Earth that isn't less complete that Shaq?
> 
> ...


If we had sabas when we drafted him in 1987 and on, he most certainly would have dominated, and we'd have many banners.

I have no idea what you mean about Shaq, but I am one who is not at all impressed by his only advantage (sheer bulk), his slowness, his inability to shoot from farther than 8 ft, his poor footwork, his horrendous lack of court vision, his whining that he is beat on, his crappy rapping, or the ridiculous favaoritism he is shown by refs every time he collides with someone. In a league of fair officiating he'd never have lasted 3 years even on the bench as a hit man. He is talentless in every sense of the word.

But I'm told his mother likes him.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

MARIS61 said:


> *I DON'T follow the NBA AT ALL.* I watch Blazers games, because I like to watch the talented/skilled/creative players, and I have some inbred homerism in me. I never watch non-Blazers games. I haven't seen a playoff game since Weakcheeks badly fumbled the Dallas series.


You comment on non-Blazers players from time to time.



> You demonstrated your naivete' by arguing about a player you know little about.


I didn't argue about him. I simply pointed out that Sabonis didn't destroy David Robinson in Olympic games, because he didn't. It's a matter of public record.



> neither I, nor anyone else in this thread said anything at all about how "Sabonis dismantled a *top-tier Hall of Famer*". If that ain't twisting I don't know what is.


Well, this seems like game-playing. The reason to name-drop David Robinson is to point out that Sabonis was tested against an NBA player. If you and others didn't mean to imply that Robinson was a Hall of Famer that Sabonis played well against, it's a pretty meaningless point. How does Sabonis doing well against a non-elite player say anything about his greatness?



> No hard feelings. eace: I'd be shocked if we ever agreed on player assessments anyway. We like different aspects of talent and rate our players using different measurements. I just had to get some posting going today to distract from the pain of my root canal. :azdaja:


That's fine. I don't have a problem with you rating Sabonis as the best. As I said in reply to STOMP, I certainly can't rule out the possibility that Sabonis was the best.


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## The Professional Fan (Nov 5, 2003)

MARIS61 said:


> If we had sabas when we drafted him in 1987 and on, he most certainly would have dominated, and we'd have many banners.
> 
> I have no idea what you mean about Shaq, but I am one who is not at all impressed by his only advantage (sheer bulk), his slowness, his inability to shoot from farther than 8 ft, his poor footwork, his horrendous lack of court vision, his whining that he is beat on, his crappy rapping, or the ridiculous favaoritism he is shown by refs every time he collides with someone. In a league of fair officiating he'd never have lasted 3 years even on the bench as a hit man. He is talentless in every sense of the word.
> 
> But I'm told his mother likes him.


If we had Sabas when we drafted him in 87 (are you sure it wasn't 86?), the BLAZERS would have been dominant. I can't say, outright, that Sabas would have been dominant. I can say, with some certainty, he would have been better than Duckworth.

As for saying you "have no idea what you (I) mean about shaq" - I think you totally made my point. He is/was far from a "complete" player. But he dominated. To the tune of 4 rings so far in his career. Oden can dominate in the Neanderthal manner that Shaq did.....and most likely then some. I suppose the main difference between Oden vs Sabas, is that Oden will have a chance to dominate. Regardless if Sabas could have. We can argue "could have" all friggin' night.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

The Professional Fan said:


> We can argue "could have" all friggin' night.


this is the offseason...

STOMP


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

The Professional Fan said:


> If we had Sabas when we drafted him in 87 (are you sure it wasn't 86?), the BLAZERS would have been dominant.


Atlanta drafted him in 86, but the NBA said he was too young to be drafted, so we drafted him in 87.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> You comment on non-Blazers players from time to time.
> 
> I didn't argue about him. I simply pointed out that Sabonis didn't destroy David Robinson in Olympic games, because he didn't. It's a matter of public record.
> 
> ...


I follow our team, and I love to watch the other talented players. I don't follow the standings, the salaries, the non-Blazers trades...and I put no stock at all in the final scores usually as they have no basis in reality. That doesn't mean I'm above gloating when we beat LA.:yay:

It IS a matter of record that Sabas destroyed DR, and in the process embarrassed him publicly. I've never found anyone who watched the game who has a different opinion on that. Seeing is believing.

The comparison was between 2 players of the same age and approx. same years of experience, who were both the dominant leaders of their teams. They both went on to be dominant forces in their respective hemispheres. To wonder how Sabas would have fared in the west is no great stretch. It is easy to feel he would have progressed as well as DR, and in fact he did. And to call DR "non-elite" at that time is ridiculous. He had been annointed as the next Wilt/Kareem/Akeem as early as 1985 by pretty much anyone who followed the game, played or coached or reported the game. He had already dominated college ball.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

MARIS61 said:


> And to call DR "non-elite" at that time is ridiculous. He had been annointed as the next Wilt/Kareem/Akeem as early as 1985


He was an elite prospect, but he was not an all-time elite player yet.


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## Elton (May 26, 2007)

I love me some Maris/Minstrel beatdowns! You guys have been thoroughly entertaining. 

Sorry for such a silly "what if" thread, but I'm a huge Sabas fan and have always wished that he could've played for the Blazers in his prime.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

MARIS61 said:


> I follow our team, and I love to watch the other talented players. I don't follow the standings, the salaries, the non-Blazers trades...and I put no stock at all in the final scores usually as they have no basis in reality. That doesn't mean I'm above gloating when we beat LA.:yay:
> 
> It IS a matter of record that Sabas destroyed DR, and in the process embarrassed him publicly. I've never found anyone who watched the game who has a different opinion on that. Seeing is believing.
> 
> The comparison was between 2 players of the same age and approx. same years of experience, who were both the dominant leaders of their teams. They both went on to be dominant forces in their respective hemispheres. To wonder how Sabas would have fared in the west is no great stretch. It is easy to feel he would have progressed as well as DR, and in fact he did. And to call DR "non-elite" at that time is ridiculous. He had been annointed as the next Wilt/Kareem/Akeem as early as 1985 by pretty much anyone who followed the game, played or coached or reported the game. He had already dominated college ball.


if it's such public record, you should be able to find a single reputable source that even suggests he was embarassed by sabonis in that game. facts ar robinson went for 19/12, sabonis 13/13. ussr won by 6, with kourtinaitis scoring 28 points. that's the public record. your version is strictly a fabrication. 

and robinson did just take a year off from competitive basketball. he only averaged 13 ppg in the olympics, but put up 19 against the soviets.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

kflo said:


> if it's such public record, you should be able to find a single reputable source that even suggests he was embarassed by sabonis in that game. facts ar robinson went for 19/12, sabonis 13/13. ussr won by 6, with kourtinaitis scoring 28 points. that's the public record. your version is strictly a fabrication.
> 
> and robinson did just take a year off from competitive basketball. he only averaged 13 ppg in the olympics, but put up 19 against the soviets.


Surprisingly, I'm having a hard time finding the full stats for this game anywhere. Got a link?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

MARIS61 said:


> Surprisingly, I'm having a hard time finding the full stats for this game anywhere. Got a link?


i don't have a boxscore, no.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

On a side note:

In 1988, Sabonis was playing for USSR against his own wishes, a country whose government he despised and one that was pretty much his homeland's enemy. And yet, he approached the games as if they were just the sport of basketball and nothing more, in the highest manner of professionalism possible.

After the USSR crumbled, and he led his Lithuanian team in 92, he was asked which accomplishment meant more to him, he said "the Bronze medal for my own country by far".

Asked later which accomplishment meant more to him, he said "the Bronze medal for my own country by far".


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