# In Defense of Reality 1, Miami



## fin_dawgg (Aug 30, 2005)

I have been asked to defend my contention that the Celtics will be competitive with other Eastern Conference teams that are elite or should be elite (NJ, Miami, Det, NY and Cleveland). I will address each team in four different threads over the next 4 to 7 days. I have chopped it up and spread it out so that we may be able to have a more focused argument (and I get the impression I'll be the only one arguing on behalf of the defense ) . First off I’ll start with the favorite to win the Eastern Conference, the Miami Heat.

At first look they look like they will dominate, and they may, but a closer examination reveals that this may be a troublesome season for Miami. The lesser issue to consider is the enormous egos recently added to Miami. Newly acquired Jason Williams has a well documented history for being a malcontent. He was relatively quiet under Hubie, but he returned to his whining ways shortly after the arrival of Fratello. I’m sure we remember the Antione show and his antics. They were dialed down a bit after his initial departure from Boston, but if put into an environment in which “self” could be front and center you wonder how long Antione will tow the company line. Shaq’s enormous frame is eclipsed only by his ego. We saw what happened with Kobe, so what happens when you add two Kobe like attitudes into the fold. Coach Van Gundy is considered a “player’s coach“, but more often than not player friendly coaches struggle in the midst of self centered individuals wearing the same uniform. It’s worth pointing out that during this off-season Miami was reportedly close to seeing the return of Pat Riley to the bench. Considering Pat's ego, is such a return still within the realm of possibility?

The bigger issue for Miami to be concerned with is player durability. Currently 6 players on Miami’s roster have missed 15 or more games in the last 5 years. Of those 6, at least 4 of them have missed 15 or more games multiple times in the last 5 years. Antione has been as steady as you could want a player to be, but with his newly exposed arthritic knee the odds of Walker continuing to play 78 or more games a year wane. I know the argument will be that he will play off the bench, or he’ll play fewer minutes. Speaking from experience, it exponentially more difficult to play intermittently, the warming up and cooling down can cause more problems than if you go on it for extended periods of time, when contending with arthritic knee’s or any knee issue. 

Many argue that Miami didn’t go to the big game last year because of injury. Durability will be an issue this year and will cost Miami. That’s why I think Boston could be competitive with Miami this year. I know this is a stretch, but its not impossible. Boston being competitive with Miami is probable and plausible.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Lamest. Analysis. Ever. 

I give it














out of ten.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

The same could be applied to every NBA team including Boston. Chemistry and injury issues are common, even among the great teams in history. Miami is much more talented, and thus overally better, than Boston.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Miami is 5 million times the team we are. If half their starters go down, they are still better because they have talent now, they know what they can get out of their guys and probably what they will get out of them. We can't say the same about the Celtics. We (well most of *you* ) are blind and think they that we can challenge. 

Miami knows that they have a team full of NBA starters.

We don't know if we half of the players we have no will be in the league in 3 years.


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## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

I don't think there's an argument that the Celtics are better. Of course, any NBA team can beat any other on any given night, but I think it's clear that the Heat have the superior team.

Put it this way, take off Shaq, and I think the Heat are _still_ better.
C Zo/Doleac vs. Lafrentz/Blount
PF Haslem/Walker/Simien vs. Jefferson/Scalabrine
SF Posey/[Walker]/FA vs. Pierce/Green
SG Wade/[Posey]/FA vs. Davis/Allen
PG Williams/FA/Fitch vs. Dickau/Banks/West/etc.

The only position the Celts have any sort of advantage here is the SF.

A similar comparison could be done with the other elite teams of the east: Indiana minus Jermaine or Artest, Detroit minus whoever you want.

You guys are a young team with some nice prospects, and some of them will no doubt develop into good or possibly even great players. But for now, I don't see you competing with the elites of the league.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

I agree. Miami is one of the five Eastern Conference teams that the Celtics could not beat in a seven game series in any possible circumstance barring injuries.


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## cgcatsfan (Jun 10, 2005)

The heat is in contention for the NBA championship next year. 
I can't get behind this analysis. 
Miami just got tons stronger with the trades they made. 
I'm the eternal optimist, but we need more time to compete successfully with this team.


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## fin_dawgg (Aug 30, 2005)

I don’t like to make posts that are always entrenched with statistical analysis. The initial thread was a look at a team that has some issues that aren’t necessarily reflected in a box score. Miami is adding two key players, presumably to the starting 5, that seem to contradict team philosophy. Miami was an efficient team that shot well, let Shaq be the big show and kept turnovers down. As for my initial thread, if you think ego’s have little impact when analyzing a teams prospects for success, please reference the Lakers of two years ago, there wasn‘t a sports analyst, pro or amateur, that didn‘t believe that the Lakers biggest hurdle to overcome was the collection of egos that were put together. If you would like a bit more flap with your jack consider the following: 

Miami as a team shot a league best .486%, and turned the ball over 13.3 times a game (good enough to be 12th best in the league). Now add into the fold Walker, who shot 42%, managed to put up 1377, turned the ball over 3.29 per game; “but he’s going to be the third or fourth option”. Like it matters, during his time in the big D, Walker managed to shoot .428%, while hoisting up 1,129 shots, turned the ball over 2.46 times per game, and that’s the good news. Jason Williams managed a pitiful .413% from the field this past season, which was a career high, and tossed up 644 shots. Which I wouldn’t give a second look at had he managed to average more than 5.6 APG (GP managed 6.1 despite his diminished physical skills, spending the prior season in the Triangle Offense and learning to play with new teammates). These are supposed to be the marquee additions to push the Heat over the top? I think not. The addition of Walker and Williams will be detriments to Miami, not attributes. 

Lets keep in mind that my contention is that Boston can and should be *competitive* with Miami. If you think that Miami can have better match-ups with their starting five with Shaq on the floor… you’re right. Does that mean the Celtics can’t be competitive… absolutely not!! Boston will be competitive with Miami because Boston has a good starting 5 and a far superior bench. Miami’s bench scored 22.7 PPG, averaged 4.9 AST, took 1.9 STLs, grabbed 10.9 REBs and shot .451 from the field. By comparison Boston averaged 35.3 PPG (+), dished out 6.7 AST‘s (+), had 3.06 STLs (+), ripped down 14.9 REBs (+) and shot .455 from the floor. Boston’s bench ranked in the top 6 in 11 different statistical categories (they only managed to be in the top 5 in 10 of those categories). Boston’s bench is an enormous asset and will enable Boston to be competitive with Miami.

--Fin


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

fin_dawgg, don't take it as an insult, but your posts are a little "radical", but you do present some nice supporting evidence. Nice post. I don't agree, but nice post.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> By comparison Boston averaged 35.3 PPG (+), dished out 6.7 AST‘s (+), had 3.06 STLs (+), ripped down 14.9 REBs (+) and shot .455 from the floor. Boston’s bench ranked in the top 6 in 11 different statistical categories (they only managed to be in the top 5 in 10 of those categories). Boston’s bench is an enormous asset and will enable Boston to be competitive with Miami.


Did you take into account that Miami has improved their bench, or no?

You say the C's could be competitive with Miami. It doesn't matter, because they couldn't beat them in a 7-game series, which we'd have to to. If you think the Celts could beat MIA in a seven game series, you need to stop dreaming.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

fin_dawgg said:


> I don’t like to make posts that are always entrenched with statistical analysis. The initial thread was a look at a team that has some issues that aren’t necessarily reflected in a box score. Miami is adding two key players, presumably to the starting 5, that seem to contradict team philosophy. Miami was an efficient team that shot well, let Shaq be the big show and kept turnovers down. As for my initial thread, if you think ego’s have little impact when analyzing a teams prospects for success, please reference the Lakers of two years ago, there wasn‘t a sports analyst, pro or amateur, that didn‘t believe that the Lakers biggest hurdle to overcome was the collection of egos that were put together. If you would like a bit more flap with your jack consider the following:
> 
> Miami as a team shot a league best .486%, and turned the ball over 13.3 times a game (good enough to be 12th best in the league). Now add into the fold Walker, who shot 42%, managed to put up 1377, turned the ball over 3.29 per game; “but he’s going to be the third or fourth option”. Like it matters, during his time in the big D, Walker managed to shoot .428%, while hoisting up 1,129 shots, turned the ball over 2.46 times per game, and that’s the good news. Jason Williams managed a pitiful .413% from the field this past season, which was a career high, and tossed up 644 shots. Which I wouldn’t give a second look at had he managed to average more than 5.6 APG (GP managed 6.1 despite his diminished physical skills, spending the prior season in the Triangle Offense and learning to play with new teammates). These are supposed to be the marquee additions to push the Heat over the top? I think not. *The addition of Walker and Williams will be detriments to Miami, not attributes. *
> Lets keep in mind that my contention is that Boston can and should be *competitive* with Miami. If you think that Miami can have better match-ups with their starting five with Shaq on the floor… you’re right. Does that mean the Celtics can’t be competitive… absolutely not!! Boston will be competitive with Miami because *Boston has a good starting 5 and a far superior bench.* Miami’s bench scored 22.7 PPG, averaged 4.9 AST, took 1.9 STLs, grabbed 10.9 REBs and shot .451 from the field. By comparison Boston averaged 35.3 PPG (+), dished out 6.7 AST‘s (+), had 3.06 STLs (+), ripped down 14.9 REBs (+) and shot .455 from the floor. Boston’s bench ranked in the top 6 in 11 different statistical categories (they only managed to be in the top 5 in 10 of those categories). * Boston’s bench is an enormous asset and will enable Boston to be competitive with Miami.*
> --Fin




:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: bostons bench are a bunch of overglorified nobodys...we as celtics fans misinterpret potential with actually being a good player...our bench consists of mark blount, delonte, gerald green, oriene greene, tony allen, ryan gomes, and brian scalabrine...these players are not FAR superior to any bench...hell they arent even that superior to my senior yr high school team a couple of years ago...if you are saying that these players are going to be the reason that we are competative with a team tha will win between 60 and 70 games this year then that is the flimsiest arguement ive ever heard


o and yea addeng j-will walker and james posey while only losing eddie jones will be terrrrrrrrible for the heat...shoot i wouldnt want to add any good players to a team of shaq and wade either


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

Fin, I appreciate your faith in the Celts, I love them too but in this case I just think you are severly over-rating a bunch of guys who may not even play in the league long. Sorry but I'm glad you are a fan anyway :biggrin:


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

fin_dawgg said:


> I don’t like to make posts that are always entrenched with statistical analysis. The initial thread was a look at a team that has some issues that aren’t necessarily reflected in a box score. Miami is adding two key players, presumably to the starting 5, that seem to contradict team philosophy. Miami was an efficient team that shot well, let Shaq be the big show and kept turnovers down. As for my initial thread, if you think ego’s have little impact when analyzing a teams prospects for success, please reference the Lakers of two years ago, there wasn‘t a sports analyst, pro or amateur, that didn‘t believe that the Lakers biggest hurdle to overcome was the collection of egos that were put together.


Oh, yeah, I forgot, beating everyone's favourite "true team" (San Antonio) counts as a _spectacular_ failure. I mean, giving the Spurs a rectal pounding so fierce that it was a month before Timmeh could sleep on his back is the hallmark of a true loser. And, of course, that pathetic Lakers squad rolled over the team with the best player on the face of the planet. Yeah, I'm really glad that Boston isn't dealing with that sort of failure. 



fin_dawgg said:


> Miami as a team shot a league best .486%, and turned the ball over 13.3 times a game (good enough to be 12th best in the league). Now add into the fold Walker, who shot 42%, managed to put up 1377, turned the ball over 3.29 per game; “but he’s going to be the third or fourth option”. Like it matters, during his time in the big D, Walker managed to shoot .428%, while hoisting up 1,129 shots, turned the ball over 2.46 times per game, and that’s the good news. Jason Williams managed a pitiful .413% from the field this past season, which was a career high, and tossed up 644 shots. Which I wouldn’t give a second look at had he managed to average more than 5.6 APG (GP managed 6.1 despite his diminished physical skills, spending the prior season in the Triangle Offense and learning to play with new teammates). These are supposed to be the marquee additions to push the Heat over the top? I think not. The addition of Walker and Williams will be detriments to Miami, not attributes.


What were David Friedman's words in his debate with Mike Huben? Something along the lines of "Before criticizing an idea it helps to first know something about it"? Hint, before calling Pat Riley a moron and lecturing us all on why the trade will cause Miami to "fail" the way the 2003-04 Lakers "failed" it might help if you actually watched Miami's series against Detroit. Because then you might have seen the weakness that Detroit exposed and understood why Riley made the trade. And, as a Celtics fan, let me tell you, I have been praying for _that kind_ of failure for nigh on 20 years. If that be failure, bring it on, baby.



fin_dawgg said:


> Lets keep in mind that my contention is that Boston can and should be *competitive* with Miami. If you think that Miami can have better match-ups with their starting five with Shaq on the floor… you’re right. Does that mean the Celtics can’t be competitive… absolutely not!! Boston will be competitive with Miami because Boston has a good starting 5 and a far superior bench. Miami’s bench scored 22.7 PPG, averaged 4.9 AST, took 1.9 STLs, grabbed 10.9 REBs and shot .451 from the field. By comparison Boston averaged 35.3 PPG (+), dished out 6.7 AST‘s (+), had 3.06 STLs (+), ripped down 14.9 REBs (+) and shot .455 from the floor. Boston’s bench ranked in the top 6 in 11 different statistical categories (they only managed to be in the top 5 in 10 of those categories). Boston’s bench is an enormous asset and will enable Boston to be competitive with Miami.
> 
> --Fin


And keep in mind that Miami just added Antoine Walker to their bench, so their bench will be far better this year, and their advantage in the starting five is overwhelming.


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## fin_dawgg (Aug 30, 2005)

Premier said:


> fin_dawgg, don't take it as an insult, but your posts are a little "radical", but you do present some nice supporting evidence. Nice post. I don't agree, but nice post.


I don’t take it as an insult at all. I know it’s a stretch, but it’s absolutely no fun when everyone agrees. When there are no voices of dissention a real democracy doesn’t exist. I chose to take the positive because I knew it would be hard to quantify and qualify, but could make for interesting discussion. The only way to argue that Boston could be competitive with Miami was to be radical. Truth be told I don‘t necessarily believe in all the things I wrote and will write, but with the sparse information in the media, indicative of a the off season, this has become a nice way to help pass the time. 

--Fin


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## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

I'll say this about Miami's new situation.
In the Detroit series, I believe we were (without injuries) the better team, and would have won with everyone healthy. I don't think that's a particularly homeristic assessment. However injuries happen, and anyways even with everyone healthy we still might have lost. And of course there were still the Spurs to contend with.

If you watched the Detroit games, you would have seen one main weakness:
No one outside Shaq and Wade (and I mean absolutely no one) could create a shot for themselves or someone else. Haslem is a banger, hustle player who gets his points from open jumpers and offensive rebounds. Damon was a spot-up shooter and nothing else. Eddie was mainly a spot up shooter, who often made nice cuts benefitting from Wade and Shaq's passing. Off the bench, Doleac and Laettner were jumpshooters, Zo is no longer at the point where he's a main offensive option, Anderson was there solely for defense, and Dooling overdribbled and didn't know how to run an offense (though he shot very well in the playoffs). I'm not saying these guys are bad players (they are not) but they all share one weakness, which is an inability to create shots for themselves or anyone else. This was apparent in the Detroit series--Detroit is fantastic at shutting down shooters. They made Fisher, Rush, and the rest disappear 2 years ago in the finals, erased Korver in the Philadelphia series, and did the same to DJ and EJ in the ECF. Because they don't double (often) they make it harder for guys like the Joneses and Haslem to operate. Shaq and Wade just had to do too much, and do it all the time.

So what have the trades done? Addressed this weakness, plain and simple. All of a sudden, the Heat now have two creative playmakers (one of whom will probably come off the bench) to take pressure off Shaq and Wade, and to make sure the offense runs smoothly. That's it. We still have good defenders in Wade, Posey, Zo, and probably our free agent signing(s), as well as Shaq intimidating penetrators. The offense will still run primarily through two high-percentage scorers in Shaq and Wade, both of whom will make it easier for everyone else to shoot a high-percentage. And I think we are now better equipped to handle teams like Detroit, San Antonio, and Indiana. Riles saw a weakness, and he addressed it.

Just my thoughts.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Diophantos said:


> If you watched the Detroit games, you would have seen one main weakness:
> No one outside Shaq and Wade (and I mean absolutely no one) could create a shot for themselves or someone else. Haslem is a banger, hustle player who gets his points from open jumpers and offensive rebounds. Damon was a spot-up shooter and nothing else. Eddie was mainly a spot up shooter, who often made nice cuts benefitting from Wade and Shaq's passing. Off the bench, Doleac and Laettner were jumpshooters, Zo is no longer at the point where he's a main offensive option, Anderson was there solely for defense, and Dooling overdribbled and didn't know how to run an offense (though he shot very well in the playoffs). I'm not saying these guys are bad players (they are not) but they all share one weakness, which is an inability to create shots for themselves or anyone else. This was apparent in the Detroit series--Detroit is fantastic at shutting down shooters. They made Fisher, Rush, and the rest disappear 2 years ago in the finals, erased Korver in the Philadelphia series, and did the same to DJ and EJ in the ECF. Because they don't double (often) they make it harder for guys like the Joneses and Haslem to operate. Shaq and Wade just had to do too much, and do it all the time.
> 
> So what have the trades done? Addressed this weakness, plain and simple. All of a sudden, the Heat now have two creative playmakers (one of whom will probably come off the bench) to take pressure off Shaq and Wade, and to make sure the offense runs smoothly. That's it. We still have good defenders in Wade, Posey, Zo, and probably our free agent signing(s), as well as Shaq intimidating penetrators. The offense will still run primarily through two high-percentage scorers in Shaq and Wade, both of whom will make it easier for everyone else to shoot a high-percentage. And I think we are now better equipped to handle teams like Detroit, San Antonio, and Indiana. Riles saw a weakness, and he addressed it.
> ...


Bingo.


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## fin_dawgg (Aug 30, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> Bingo.


I’m assuming you didn’t take the time to read my prior post. I did watch the Miami/Det series, and I couldn’t help but think of the Celtics. What struck me was how Miami’s reliance on Shaq and Wade was reminiscent of the Celtics reliance on Pierce and Walker against NJ in the Eastern Conference finals. Actually it could be said that Boston’s dependency on the Walker/Pierce duo extended throughout the entire season and not just the ECF. 

--Fin


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## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

fin_dawgg said:


> I’m assuming you didn’t take the time to read my prior post. I did watch the Miami/Det series, and I couldn’t help but think of the Celtics. What struck me was how Miami’s reliance on Shaq and Wade was reminiscent of the Celtics reliance on Pierce and Walker against NJ in the Eastern Conference finals. Actually it could be said that Boston’s dependency on the Walker/Pierce duo extended throughout the entire season and not just the ECF.
> 
> --Fin


Exactly my point. The Heat relied too much on Shaq and Wade in the Detroit series, because no one else could create in the halfcourt. So that problem has now been addressed with JWill and Walker.


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## fin_dawgg (Aug 30, 2005)

Diophantos said:


> Exactly my point. The Heat relied too much on Shaq and Wade in the Detroit series, because no one else could create in the halfcourt. So that problem has now been addressed with JWill and Walker.


I’m not saying I disagree with you, I just like to play devils advocate from time to time, so let me do so again. Is it possible that Miami will run into other issues in the set offense because of the playing styles of Walker and J-Will? I know J-Will seems to have beat his turnover bug, but given a new environment and elevated expectations isn’t it reasonable to think he could revert back to his 3 TO’s a game? With Walker ready willing and able to take bad shots in bunches couldn’t the Heat’s half court offense be adversely affected in other ways. I know the same can be said about many, if not all teams in the league that made additions this off-season, but that doesn’t make it any less plausible within this context. Thanks for the response, and thanks for being respectful. I appreciate that a great deal.

--Fin


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## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

fin_dawgg said:


> I’m not saying I disagree with you, I just like to play devils advocate from time to time, so let me do so again. Is it possible that Miami will run into other issues in the set offense because of the playing styles of Walker and J-Will? I know J-Will seems to have beat his turnover bug, but given a new environment and elevated expectations isn’t it reasonable to think he could revert back to his 3 TO’s a game? With Walker ready willing and able to take bad shots in bunches couldn’t the Heat’s half court offense be adversely affected in other ways. I know the same can be said about many, if not all teams in the league that made additions this off-season, but that doesn’t make it any less plausible within this context. Thanks for the response, and thanks for being respectful. I appreciate that a great deal.
> 
> --Fin


Is it possible? Maybe. I'm not a fortune teller. But I don't think it will happen.
JWill doesn't have elevated expectations. If anything his expectations and responsibilities are decreased. In Memphis he was the lead guard on offense, the main creator on the perimeter. Now he's the secondary guard. He'll still create and allow Wade to play off the ball (especially on the break), but he has a far smaller weight on his shoulders.
With Walker, the story of his career has been a cost-benefit analysis. Does the good (exceptional ballhandling, passing, and shooting for a big man, solid rebounding) outweigh the bad (terrible shot selection, occasionally disinterested defense, turnovers)? At times in his career it hasn't, and at times it has. In this case though, I think he'll be fine. Not only is he not the main scorer/ballhandler, he's probably the second, third, or occasionally fourth option in that respect. His percentages will go up with more open looks, and with more dominant superstars around him I think he'll be able to tone down the shot selection. He has a clearly defined role here, unlike, say, his situation in Dallas, where Nelson was fiddling with the roster from day to day and no one knew what they were going to do on any given night.

I try to be respectful. You haven't said anything ignorant or ridiculous, you've just analyzed it differently than most of us have. I'm trying to convince you of my viewpoint (that's what an argument is about) but no reason to be mean.


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## BackwoodsBum (Jul 2, 2003)

Diophantos said:


> I'll say this about Miami's new situation.
> In the Detroit series, I believe we were (without injuries) the better team, and would have won with everyone healthy. I don't think that's a particularly homeristic assessment. However injuries happen, and anyways even with everyone healthy we still might have lost. And of course there were still the Spurs to contend with.
> 
> If you watched the Detroit games, you would have seen one main weakness:
> ...



I agree totally. The Heat needed people who could lighten the load on Shaq and Wade and I think they did a good job especially considering they didn't really give up much of anything in the process. I've never been an Antione Walker fan but like him or not I think he can help the right team. If he is willing to accept a reduced number of minutes without problem (and I think he will) he could create havoc coming off the bench much like Ricky D does for the C's. 

JWill, on the other hand, is a player that I've always liked watching and one that I think has gotten a bad rap that he hasn't always deserved. Yeah, he can be a real immature jerk, but I think he will probably flourish under Riley much like he did under Hubie Brown. He could just as easily do just the opposite, but he's worth a gamble.

I think Miami has gotten a lot better and IMHO they are as good or better than any team in the league.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

fin_dawgg said:


> I’m assuming you didn’t take the time to read my prior post. I did watch the Miami/Det series, and I couldn’t help but think of the Celtics. What struck me was how Miami’s reliance on Shaq and Wade was reminiscent of the Celtics reliance on Pierce and Walker against NJ in the Eastern Conference finals. Actually it could be said that Boston’s dependency on the Walker/Pierce duo extended throughout the entire season and not just the ECF.
> 
> --Fin


I'm assuming that you missed the Heat's glaring weakness, as Miami wasn't at all like Boston's recent teams. Boston has (and still does) suffered from a talent shortage. A stronger team and they'd have gone further. But if your second best player is Antoine Walker you shouldn't be getting out of the first round of the playoffs. The Heat didn't have a talent problem, they had too many players that duplicated the exact same skill on offense, and their primary shot creator wasn't great at creating for others. Once he was injured, and could no longer create for himself, the Heat were toast. They've addressed that glaring weakness, while adding defensive toughness at the 3 (with Posey). The Celtics couldn't take the Heat in a series if they were spotted two games.


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## fin_dawgg (Aug 30, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> I'm assuming that you missed the Heat's glaring weakness, as Miami wasn't at all like Boston's recent teams. Boston has (and still does) suffered from a talent shortage. A stronger team and they'd have gone further. But if your second best player is Antoine Walker you shouldn't be getting out of the first round of the playoffs. The Heat didn't have a talent problem, they had too many players that duplicated the exact same skill on offense, and their primary shot creator wasn't great at creating for others. Once he was injured, and could no longer create for himself, the Heat were toast. They've addressed that glaring weakness, while adding defensive toughness at the 3 (with Posey). The Celtics couldn't take the Heat in a series if they were spotted two games.


Look, I have no idea what your problem is. Perhaps I came off wrong, I don’t know how but that doesn’t mean I didn’t. If I did I would like to take this opportunity to apologize. When I started to read threads from this particular forum the overwhelming consensus was and is that Boston will be at or around .500. I agree, but how much fun is it to participate in discussions such as these in which everyone agrees. I know that Miami is the better team. I have been presenting arguments to the contrary simply to see if they can be made. I went deep into the well in an effort to come up with some elements that aren’t typically thought of as relevant information when doing a hierarchal comparison among NBA teams. I thought it would be a nice challenge to try and establish a position that I didn’t necessarily favor. I had fun looking at statistical information and then try to formulate an argument based on those stats. 

Perhaps I was vague or less than concise, I haven‘t slept in 36 hrs so either is possible. When I drew the comparison between Miami of last year and the Celtics of ‘01 - ‘02 it was a general comparison. That Celtic's team didn‘t have anyone else that could create their own shots. They had a few guys that could bang a little, and a few guys that could spot shoot, but nobody outside of Pierce or Walker was a reliable offensive threat. That‘s as far as the comparison went. My initial posts weren’t condescending or combative, yours on the other hand have been. If I wrote something that ticked you off, or you thought was a personal attack on my part I can assure you that wasn’t my intent. I hope you now understand why I have been making the posts I have been, and I look forward to more discussions.

--Fin


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## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

fin_dawgg said:


> Look, I have no idea what your problem is. Perhaps I came off wrong, I don’t know how but that doesn’t mean I didn’t. If I did I would like to take this opportunity to apologize. When I started to read threads from this particular forum the overwhelming consensus was and is that Boston will be at or around .500. I agree, but how much fun is it to participate in discussions such as these in which everyone agrees. I know that Miami is the better team. I have been presenting arguments to the contrary simply to see if they can be made. I went deep into the well in an effort to come up with some elements that aren’t typically thought of as relevant information when doing a hierarchal comparison among NBA teams. I thought it would be a nice challenge to try and establish a position that I didn’t necessarily favor. I had fun looking at statistical information and then try to formulate an argument based on those stats.
> 
> Perhaps I was vague or less than concise, I haven‘t slept in 36 hrs so either is possible. When I drew the comparison between Miami of last year and the Celtics of ‘01 - ‘02 it was a general comparison. That Celtic's team didn‘t have anyone else that could create their own shots. They had a few guys that could bang a little, and a few guys that could spot shoot, but nobody outside of Pierce or Walker was a reliable offensive threat. That‘s as far as the comparison went. My initial posts weren’t condescending or combative, yours on the other hand have been. If I wrote something that ticked you off, or you thought was a personal attack on my part I can assure you that wasn’t my intent. I hope you now understand why I have been making the posts I have been, and I look forward to more discussions.
> 
> --Fin


I think you're taking his post a little too personally. You made an argument, and he made a counter-argument.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Walker still can't hit a layup. How is coming off the bench or the playing with Shaq going to help him with that? Also who's going to teach Walker to hit a free throw - Shaq again?

These "all star teams" that are supposed to win, never do. I don't think the Heat are much better than they were last year. They just have more eggheads now. And that is not good.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Why would Walker need to attempt free-throws? He won't be penetrating or attempting his layups all too often. Like ehmunro posted, he will be a post feeder and a catch-and-shoot player at the top of the key.

They have a point guard to go along with Wade now. They have a better defender in Posey. They have a post feeder. They also retained their key players and gained experience.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> Why would Walker need to attempt free-throws?


Generally after a foul there is an attempt to hit the free throw. Unless of course it's a non-shooting foul not in the penalty.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> Generally after a foul there is an attempt to hit the free throw. Unless of course it's a non-shooting foul not in the penalty.





> He won't be penetrating or attempting his layups all too often. Like ehmunro posted, he will be a post fooder and a catch-and-shoot player at the top of the key.
> 
> They have a point guard to go along with Wade now. They have a better defender in Posey. They have a post feeder. They also retained their key players and gained experience.


:-/


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Causeway said:


> Generally after a foul there is an attempt to hit the free throw. Unless of course it's a non-shooting foul not in the penalty.


Once again, there aren't many free-throw attempts for stand-still shooters who won't be penetrating frequently.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

It still blows my mind how a guy who shoots 55% from the line shoots threes. I know, I know, it's been discussed many a time before, but everytime I think of it I just can't believe it. 

Just to give an example of Walker's struggles from the line, I recently saw a highlight from when he was with the Hawks when they were down by 2 and he got fouled. He missed the first, and therefore he needed to miss the second, but he swished it instead. Unbelieveable. 

To answer your question about why Walker would need to hit his FT's: why not? All it can do is help your game and it is something you can practice realistically on your own. If Walker has nerve problems at this stage of the game at the line, that really doesn't bode well, and I don't think he does, because he's hit some huge shots before. As well, it is one of the easiest shots in basketball...they're called "free throws" for a reason.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> Once again, there aren't many free-throw attempts for stand-still shooters who won't be penetrating frequently.


Maybe but "once again" your question was:



> Why would Walker need to attempt free-throws?


Not: "will he be going to the line very often". So as P-Dub said:



> To answer your question about why Walker would need to hit his FT's: why not?


He'll need to hit them if he gets fouled. Simple as that.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

He doesn't _need_ to as they aren't a major part of his game and he won't attempt much. Antoine can miss all of his free throws next season and still help the Heat. If would be nice if he shot 70%+, but he doesn't _need_ to hit them to be effective.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Premier, you do realize that all you are doing is just making excuses for Walker being too lazy to work on his free throw shooting, right? Saying you don't need to work on something because you won't use it as much as you used to is the way a loser thinks. Somebody with a positive mentality for the game would always be striving to improve their weaknesses. 

It goes beyond just the fact that he won't get to the line very often; by not working on his free throw shooting, Walker is cheating himself out of PT in crunch time because he is a prime target for the other team to foul. As well, he is unneccesarily robbing his team of potientally much-needed points simply from the fact that he's lazy. He has proven he can shoot 70+% when he gets his *** in gear, and I don't see why he couldn't. I mean, it's not like he has SOOO many other things to work on that he doesn't have time for his free throw shooting. To think otherwise is to have a loser mentality.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

His shot mechanics have noticeably changed since his Kentucky and early Celtics days. He is more of a set shooter and he doesn't really shoot with his legs. This style of shooting hurts his mid-range game and subsequently, his free throws. I'm not turning my cheek to Antoine's poor shooting, but his lack of a good free-throw game (which is his fault) will not matter _much_ in Miaimi due to his role in the offense.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> He is more of a set shooter and he doesn't really shoot with his legs.


That's odd. Isn't a free throw a set shot?



> This style of shooting hurts his mid-range game


To say "mid-range game" in this context would be to imply that he actually has one. 



> I'm not turning my cheek to Antoine's poor shooting


No, but you are making excuses for him to not work on it.



> but his lack of a good free-throw game (which is his fault) will not matter much in Miaimi due to his role in the offense.


Once again, he is needlessly stealing points from his team because he is lazy. And how is he going to like it when Van Gundy says, "Nope, Antoine, you can't play the last three minutes because even though I want you out there, you can't hit a free throw if the basket was six feet wide." Because we both know Walker is going to want to be on the court in crunch time, and he's not going to get that opportunity due to his atrocious FT shooting.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> He doesn't _need_ to as they aren't a major part of his game and he won't attempt much. Antoine can miss all of his free throws next season and still help the Heat. If would be nice if he shot 70%+, but he doesn't _need_ to hit them to be effective.


Sorry this makes no sense regardless if you are talking about Walker or any other player in the league. 1 or 2 points CAN make a difference in a game. So no matter how many times a player gets to the line - if they are terrible FT shooters it most certainly CAN hurt the team and the outcome of a game. 



> Antoine can miss all of his free throws next season and still help the Heat.


Yes they might win in spite of missed FT's. Just the same they could lose because of them.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

P-Dub34 said:


> That's odd. Isn't a free throw a set shot?


Antoine, shooting from his legs, is more likely to have complications with his shot. If he had refined his shot more over the course of the last few seasons, this wouldn't be a problem. This is why jump shooters always do better in shooting contests, even though they exert more energy.



> To say "mid-range game" in this context would be to imply that he actually has one.


This is true.



> No, but you are making excuses for him to not work on it.


He should work on other parts of his game that are more important and those he needs a lot of help with (conditioning and defense).



> Once again, he is needlessly stealing points from his team because he is lazy. And how is he going to like it when Van Gundy says, "Nope, Antoine, you can't play the last three minutes because even though I want you out there, you can't hit a free throw if the basket was six feet wide." Because we both know Walker is going to want to be on the court in crunch time, and he's not going to get that opportunity due to his atrocious FT shooting.


I would imagine Antoine's shooting range and ability would make him more valuable than Udonis Haslem, but that's just me. His poor free throw shooting makes him liable for hacking, but all Antoine needs to do is camp out in the top of the key. They would foul Shaq more often.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Causeway said:


> Sorry this makes no sense regardless if you are talking about Walker or any other player in the league. 1 or 2 points CAN make a difference in a game. So no matter how many times a player gets to the line - if they are terrible FT shooters it most certainly CAN hurt the team and the outcome of a game.


A missed shot in the first quarter results in the same amount of points as two missed free throws in the fourth quarter with the only difference being the possiblity of an offensive rebound and clock time.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> A missed shot in the first quarter results in the same amount of points as two missed free throws in the fourth quarter with the only difference being the possiblity of an offensive rebound and clock time.


Exactly. So how can you say:



> Antoine can miss all of his free throws next season and still help the Heat.


Which if you turn around is basically saying "Antoine can miss all of his free throws next season and still not hurt the Heat."

2 points is two points. And 2 points missed can hurt a team no matter where it comes from.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Antoine's impact on the Heat, relieving pressure from Wade and Shaq (by camping at the top of the key and being the primary passer to Shaq and also by allowing Wade to be defended by _one_ player at times if Antoine continues to make open shots), outweights his negative game characteristics coupled with an inablity to make a single free throw.

He is very valuable on the Heat and since he will attempt a small amount of free throws, he can continue shooting 60% and still be effective, *but it would be much more helpful for the Heat if he did improve his free throw shooting*.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

A question for the fellow that's claimed Walker's free throw shooting will turn the Heat into a .500 team. How badly is San Antonio hurt by Duncan's free throw shooting? How badly were the Heat hurt by Shaq's?


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

To the fellow who directly or indirectly is comparing Antoine Walker to Tim Duncan and Shaq - there is no comparison other than the fact that they all 3 struggle with FT's.

And who claimed Walker's free throw shooting will turn the Heat into a .500 team?


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Comparing Walker's impact on a game to Shaq and Duncan's is absolutely laughable. If Walker was the kind of player Shaq or Duncan was, I wouldn't say anything. However, he can't even see their level so that comparision is misinformed. As well, T-Dunc shot 67% from the stripe in the regular season and 72% during the playoffs. So not only did you just compare Walker to the best player in the game, you also manage to not make a legitimate point.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

How badly is the San Antonio Spurs hurt by Bruce Bowen's poor FT%?

Happy?


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> How badly is the San Antonio Spurs hurt by Bruce Bowen's poor FT%?


That is a much more valid comparision, yes. I was just irked by the ridiculous comparision of Walker to two of the top 5 players in the NBA.



> but it would be much more helpful for the Heat if he did improve his free throw shooting.


Hell, as long as we agree, then we don't have a problem.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

There's nothing wrong with a little debate every now and then.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Indeed, Prem... I quite enjoy them. Nothing better than debating basketball with intelligent, knowledgeable basketball fans. But it seems as if we agree now and the need for debating has died.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Umm...

Antoine Walker > Paul Pierce.

I win.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Premier said:


> Umm...
> 
> *Antoine Walker > Paul Pierce.*
> I win.




its about time someone agrees with me...damn...


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

P-Dub34 said:


> Comparing Walker's impact on a game to Shaq and Duncan's is absolutely laughable. If Walker was the kind of player Shaq or Duncan was, I wouldn't say anything. However, he can't even see their level so that comparision is misinformed.


Well, take this up with Causeway, because _he_ made that strawman argument. _He_ also made the claim that Walker's free throw shooting would destroy the Heat. So take that up with him, not me.



P-Dub34 said:


> So not only did you just compare Walker to the best player in the game, you also manage to not make a legitimate point.


The reason I specifically picked out Duncan and Shaq is that they are two players that shoot _a lot_ of free throws (unlike Walker), and generally shoot them very poorly (Duncan, in fact, was 13% worse than the league average last season, a _huge improvent_ for him). In 2003-04 Shaq & Duncan, by themselves, dragged down the aggregate free throw percentage of _the NBA_ by four percentage points. That's a lot. Duncan's free throw attempts were down last year, last year he shot 7/game as opposed to his normal 8 or 9. O'Neal averaged his normal 10-11 per game. So, if substandard free throw shooting would destroy a team, surely the effect is more likely to show up with players that shoot more free throws, no? Isn't that the point? Points squandered by missed free throws? So the more free throws you shoot the more dramatic the effect of bad free throw shooting, right? So why does it make sense to compare Walker to guys that shoot even fewer free throws? Because their affect on the final score will be even less, wouldn't it? I mean Bruce Bowen's a terrible free throw shooter, but he misses .5 free throws per game. By the way, isn't Bowen an example of someone that shoots treys despite bad free throw shooting?

While it would be nice if everyone shot free throws at an 80% clip, that's never happened, not even in the Golden Age of the NBA (when aggregate FT% hovered between .750 and .768). So, it's a legitimate question, what sort of dramatic effect would Walker's free throw shooting have on the Heat? Last year the aggregate FT% of the NBA was .756 (.7603 if you eliminate Shaq & Duncan, .7616 w/o Shaq, Duncan & Walker), so let's say that Walker shot the league average last year. On 373 free throw attempts, that works out to 282 points, as opposed to the 201 points that Walker actually scored. So, the "dramatic" effect of Walker's free throw shooting, the effect that is going to "doom" the Heat is what? Yup, one point a game. That was the actual point I was getting at. I'm not surprised by Causeway's rant, for him everything is about reiterating how much he hates Walker. Like most Walker haters he will _never_ let it go. Now you I'm disappointed in, you're smarter than this, I'm surprised that you fell for his schtick.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Now you I'm disappointed in, you're smarter than this, I'm surprised that you fell for his schtick.


Hold the phone just one minute. I'm not falling for anybody's "shtick", unless, of course, you classify saying that the Heat would be better off if Walker could shoot FT's as falling for something. Here's some direct quotes from me, and if you inferred from any of them that I meant the Heat were in trouble because of Walker, then you are sadly mistaken.

1)_ "As well, he is unneccesarily robbing his team of *potientally* much-needed points simply from the fact that he's lazy."_
This quote pertains to the fact that it is possible that Walker's FT shooting could hurt the team during the season, which is totally correct.

2)_"Because we both know Walker is going to want to be on the court in crunch time, and he's not going to get that opportunity due to his atrocious FT shooting."_
This one talks about how Walker will be letting HIMSELF down (not his team) when he cannot perform in crunch time.

3)_ "To answer your question about why Walker would need to hit his FT's: why not? All it can do is help your game and it is something you can practice realistically on your own."_
No explanation needed.

I honestly haven't the foggiest idea what you construed as "falling for his shtick" is from any of my posts, because my point has been, and always been, that it will be beneficial to both the Miami Heat and Antoine Walker for him to be able to drain his freebies. Although it's not like Walker will hit the stripe that often...don't forget this is a guy who once managed 26 field goal attempts without a single free throw attempt.

Come on, EH.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> Well, take this up with Causeway, because _he_ made that strawman argument. _He_ also made the claim that Walker's free throw shooting would destroy the Heat. So take that up with him, not me.





> I'm not surprised by Causeway's rant, for him everything is about reiterating how much he hates Walker. Like most Walker haters he will never let it go. Now you I'm disappointed in, you're smarter than this, I'm surprised that you fell for his schtick.


Truth is ehmunro the main reason I don't come to this site too much anymore is your annoying elitist arrogance and your laughable attempts at making a point by making things up. 

Please show me where I "made the claim that Walker's free throw shooting would destroy the Heat".

And please show me where I compared Walker to Shaq and Duncan (except in response to you bringing up Shaq and Duncan). Try and do this using facts.

No personal attacks. This is a violatition of our TOS and it is not your first offense. Please stop.

- Premier


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## casebeck22 (Jul 20, 2005)

Miami was favored to win the East last year to. I am still waiting for them to stop us.

I do disagee with your statement that Cleveland is one of the top contenders in the East, as well as New Jersey.
I think all you can really say for certain is the Pistons, Heat, and Pacers are the top contenders in the East.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

The main reason they didn't beat you guys last year is that Wade isn't great at creating offense for others. Once he was injured, and was struggling to create it for himself the Heat were cooked. That was what Miami was trying to address by acquiring Williams & Walker, they needed players that could create for others, and now they have them. So, I expect them to be better this year than last, they're certainly deeper.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> No personal attacks. This is a violatition of our TOS and it is not your first offense. Please stop.
> 
> - Premier





ehmunro said:


> I'm not surprised by Causeway's rant,_ for him everything is about reiterating how much he hates Walker. Like most Walker haters _ he will never let it go. Now you I'm disappointed in, you're smarter than this, _I'm surprised that you fell for his schtick_.


This is not a personal attack - as well as being a lie? Why does ehmunro continue to get a free pass on the personal attacks and only when I reply in kind do you call it while once again letting him slide? Be consistent at least.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Again ehmunro:

Please show me where as you said I "made the claim that Walker's free throw shooting would destroy the Heat" and "going to "doom" the Heat".

And please show me where I compared Walker to Shaq and Duncan (except in response to you bringing up Shaq and Duncan).


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## casebeck22 (Jul 20, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> The main reason they didn't beat you guys last year is that Wade isn't great at creating offense for others. Once he was injured, and was struggling to create it for himself the Heat were cooked. That was what Miami was trying to address by acquiring Williams & Walker, they needed players that could create for others, and now they have them. So, I expect them to be better this year than last, they're certainly deeper.


No doubt the Heat are stronger this season. It will be a great Eastern Conference Playoffs this year. Don't underestimate the Pistons or Pacers like most of the league does every year. Good luck this year to Boston as well.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I'm not underestimating you guys, I think Detroit, Indiana and Miami are clearly the class of the East this year. Indiana will (in theory) get a full season of Artest and has Granger for depth, so they'll be right there. I loved the Maxiell pick for you guys, and I think your club will be deeper and stronger this year too (plus whatever they get when they finally unload Darko).


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

just like I figured...


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## casebeck22 (Jul 20, 2005)

Causeway said:


> just like I figured...


Explain...


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Causeway's comments are in reference to ehmunro's lack of response to his post about explaining himself.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

What's the point? He complains when people ask him if he has anything to say other than "I Hate Walker", and then proceeds to let us know, for the 16,000th time that he hates Walker. We get it. He hates Walker. He claimed that Walker's missed free throws would doom the Heat. Great. I asked how much the bad free throw shooting of two guys that generally shoot twice as many free throws injured their respective teams, instead of answering the question he went back to the "I've been insulted because he accused me of just posting 'I Hate Walker' stuff. Oh, and did I mention that I hate Walker?" Great. He hates Walker. I get it. He hates Walker,

That wasn't necessary.

- Premier


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## casebeck22 (Jul 20, 2005)

> What's the point? He complains when people ask him if he has anything to say other than "I Hate Walker", and then proceeds to let us know, for the 16,000th time that he hates Walker. We get it. He hates Walker. He claimed that Walker's missed free throws would doom the Heat. Great. I asked how much the bad free throw shooting of two guys that generally shoot twice as many free throws injured their respective teams, instead of answering the question he went back to the "I've been insulted because he accused me of just posting 'I Hate Walker' stuff. Oh, and did I mention that I hate Walker?" Great. He hates Walker. I get it. He hates Walker,
> 
> That wasn't necessary.
> 
> - Premier


Looks like you guys have your reasons. This is my first time in this forum.

My name is Casey Beck, I am a Pistons fan and I am their beat writer as well. I try not to be a homer. I will try to stick around the Celtics forum and give you some of my feedback on some of your threads. C ya around.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Nice way to avoid having to answer my questions ehmunro. It's easy to make things up when people don't call you on it. Then when I do call you on you you come back with - once again with the childish reply for the 16,000th time - "he just hates Walker".

So you are clear since you seem to keep missing this point: I do not hate Walker. Show me one post where I said that. Although I do think he'd be more vauable if he hit more FT's.

I also did not once say "that Walker's missed free throws would doom the Heat." Show me the post where I said that. Although I do think he'd be more vauable if he hit more FT's. 

I understand that it makes it easier to make a case if you lie - but to me it just shows you have no case and need to resort to making crap up.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> I asked how much the bad free throw shooting of two guys that generally shoot twice as many free throws injured their respective teams, instead of answering the question he went back to the "I've been insulted because he accused me of just posting 'I Hate Walker' stuff.


another lie. your actual "question" was:



> A question for the fellow that's claimed Walker's free throw shooting will turn the Heat into a .500 team. How badly is San Antonio hurt by Duncan's free throw shooting? How badly were the Heat hurt by Shaq's?


of course there is a lie in your question as I never said "Walker's free throw shooting will turn the Heat into a .500 team."

and my actually reply was not "I've been insulted because he accused me of just posting 'I Hate Walker' stuff" but:



> To the fellow who directly or indirectly is comparing Antoine Walker to Tim Duncan and Shaq - there is no comparison other than the fact that they all 3 struggle with FT's.
> 
> And who claimed Walker's free throw shooting will turn the Heat into a .500 team?


You're usual "Walker Hater Walker Hater" whine came up in response to PDUB saying:



> So not only did you just compare Walker to the best player in the game, you also manage to not make a legitimate point.


to which part of your reply was;



> I'm not surprised by Causeway's rant, for him everything is about reiterating how much he hates Walker. Like most Walker haters he will never let it go.


typical of what i am used to in a reply from you.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

casebeck22 said:


> Looks like you guys have your reasons. This is my first time in this forum.
> 
> My name is Casey Beck, I am a Pistons fan and I am their beat writer as well. I try not to be a homer. I will try to stick around the Celtics forum and give you some of my feedback on some of your threads. C ya around.


I'm a Celtics fan and blogger, but I blog on a general basketball site so I'm not a homersexual.


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## casebeck22 (Jul 20, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> I'm a Celtics fan and blogger, but I blog on a general basketball site so I'm not a homersexual.


Hey hey I am not gonna get into this. haha.


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