# The Point That's Being Missed



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

This minicamp we're holding right now absolutely positively disgusts me...

What in the hell are we doing?

Some of you guys don't get it, you're like, what's the problem?

Here's the problem...

First off, while we're looking at Frieje vs. Jagla, and drooling for Luke Jackson...

The Clippers are watching Telfair vs. Nelson...

The Celtics are watching J.R. Smith vs. Dorell Wright...

2 Teams have watched Araujo vs. Harrison...

Countless teams have been looking at Damir Ohmerzodic, Marquinhos, guys that could be sleepers of the draft...

Denver is watching Seung-Jin and the Sebastio kid from Brasil tomorrow...

Everyone is getting the jump, but what the hell are we doing?

WE'RE HAVING NBDL/CBA SCRUB MINI-CAMP!!!!

WAKE UP!!

Those guys aren't going anywhere, and yes like I said yesterday here some of you get off on these sorry *** talents and it's ridiculous.

It's nice if you got to watch them in their 
"glory days" of college, and you marveled their average skills in your driveways, but fact is these guys have been out of the league, not heard from, and they suck.

Some of these Euro unknowns and HS kids, all it takes is 1 workout and a guarantee and they'll shut it down, we won't even have a chance to see them.

This is the point you guys are missing...

The next TMac's, Pierce's, the kind of guys some of you covet are in this draft, but we don't know because we want to see if Leon Smith has grown up, if Justin Hamilton can move his feet, if Tommi Smith is a player yet...

Yawn Yawn Yawn Yawn and one more maldito Yawn....


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

If Im not mistaken tomorrow is Lottery night, not Draft night. Paxson has 30 days to work out prospects, and tomorrow he will find out where he is picking. If he gets #1, I think he will just check if Okafor is healthy enough. 
The point is that the Bulls will have enough time to work prospects out.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> If Im not mistaken tomorrow is Lottery night, not Draft night. Paxson has 30 days to work out prospects, and tomorrow he will find out where he is picking. If he gets #1, I think he will just check if Okafor is healthy enough.
> The point is that the Bulls will have enough time to work prospects out.


The problem is, and as much as it pains me to say this, arenas is right.

Since we are guaranteed a Top 6 pick, why are teams like the Clippers, Jazz and Heat already having top talents in and working out and we're having an "IR" minicamp?

It doesn't make sense and just another blatent "Mr. Obvious" Paxson moment. Paxson simply doesn't know what he's doing and it should be overly clear by now to everyone.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> This minicamp we're holding right now absolutely positively disgusts me...
> 
> What in the hell are we doing?
> ...


Arenas, I didn't yell quite as loud, but I made essentially the same point in the mini camp thread. I want us to see at least 6 or 7 of these high school kids, all the mid first round picks as well as the top rated guys in case we trade down, and lots of potential second rounders, and I get the idea the search isn't going to be as thorough as I would like. 

So we have to get a team together for summer league. Great. Well, I for one would much rather see JR Smith go at Kirk Snyder, or any other matchup of intriuging players in this draft.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> If Im not mistaken tomorrow is Lottery night, not Draft night. Paxson has 30 days to work out prospects, and tomorrow he will find out where he is picking. If he gets #1, I think he will just check if Okafor is healthy enough.
> The point is that the Bulls will have enough time to work prospects out.


I hope you're right, but what I fear will happen is that Paxson will narrow his choices before he actually works out the players himself.

Biedrins has been in California for a while now and has worked out with the Lakers. THE LAKERS? How are they going to get a chance to nab him? The answer is: who knows? But the question I have is: why does it matter what pick we get, 1-6, as to why we can't take a look at a guy like this now?


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

If guys shut down their workouts, and they will if even one team bites, it's over...

You can't look at a guy if he's done doing his workouts...

You gotta get the jump....

For example even if a kid like JR Smith sucks, I rather look at him and say ok he's not going to fit and cross him off the list of possibilities than never even have the chance to give him a look.

We're not looking at ANY of the Euro kids and that really bothers me, especially when I can't even think of a team that hasn't had Ohmerzodic in for a workout yet...

That kid has worked out for everyone...


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

I can see everyones point but what bothers me is, I think John is looking everywhere, leaving no stone unturned. If some other team picked up on Smith or Grizzard and Bell and this time these guys were successfull then we would see posts such as:

Why the hell didn't Paxson work out these guys?? He needs to be fired! 

We have thirty days until the draft. Plenty of time to see who he might want. 

Has anyone thought about the idea that he might already know who he wants? These others are FA and second round picks. 

We could have a trade worked out that no one knows about! A lot of things could happen that we just do not know. 

Or....john doesn't know what he is doing... but we shall see.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> I can see everyones point but what bothers me is, I think John is looking everywhere, leaving no stone unturned. If some other team picked up on Smith or Grizzard and Bell and this time these guys were successfull then we would see posts such as:
> 
> Why the hell didn't Paxson work out these guys?? He needs to be fired!
> ...


You and Curry are both using the same cop out...

Again, Grizzard and Bell aren't going anywhere, are you honestly going to tell me we're THAT worried someone could get the drop on these guys?

Where have these guys been?

We haven't heard a peep out of either since basically college...

If they're such a hot commodity, while we were looking at Shirley, Dupree and Lint, why weren't we looking at those guys?

Cop out, cop out, cop out...

A lot of these guys that are working out for teams, if they get one guarantee, they're going to shut it down, which eliminates your chances of seeing them.

We're so fixated on Okafor and Deng, do we even have the knowledge to make a pick besides them? 

Do you really want to be in a position where you're forced to use a #5 pick on Luke Jackson?

That's the question of the day...

I'll keep asking ?s no one seems to have an answer for, and we can keep giving Pax a pass for what I honestly believe is a HUGE mistake.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> I can see everyones point but what bothers me is, I think John is looking everywhere, leaving no stone unturned. If some other team picked up on Smith or Grizzard and Bell and this time these guys were successfull then we would see posts such as:
> 
> Why the hell didn't Paxson work out these guys?? He needs to be fired!


Possibly, but I don't think so. I think you worry about blue chip draft prospects as opposed to summer league roster spots. Sure, if Rod Grizzard or someone else ends up being a diamond in the rough, if could be great. But I'd rather be looking at 2004 draft candidates now, or at least looking at more of them AND having the minicamp.



> We have thirty days until the draft. Plenty of time to see who he might want.


If we see everybody I like, I'll be pretty happy.



> Has anyone thought about the idea that he might already know who he wants? These others are FA and second round picks.
> 
> We could have a trade worked out that no one knows about! A lot of things could happen that we just do not know.


This is not acceptable to me. I was so sure I knew where I wanted to go to grad school last year that I only applied to one program, a bad idea. So luckily I got in, but then I learned that the prof I wanted to study with the most was moving to another school (equate it to a injury you didn't know about). Luckily I was able to get into the second school, and I will be going there (last minute trade). But it could have easily not worked out for me, and I would have been much better off if I had applied to more schools in the first place. Paxson should do more work than he needs to, not less.


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> I hope you're right, but what I fear will happen is that Paxson will narrow his choices before he actually works out the players himself.
> ...


The Lakers worked out Eddy Curry back then when the Bulls got him. So no surprise here, teams have the right to work out players.

I think the point is that everything that Paxson does is WRONG. If he goes out and signs Kobe, there must be something WRONG about that. If he goes to New Zeland to scout a 8'2 player, he is dumb for wasting his time. So Paxson is always in a lose-lose situation. 
Please, give Paxson a break. If Jerry West were in Pax position, people will be crying he is a genious for trying to find a gem among scrubs with this mini-camp.
I feel sorry for Pax, really. 

And he has indeed a long period of time to check players out. At the end of the day, he will take a close look at everyone, and maybe twice. Its sad when we cant let the guy work.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> 
> 
> The Lakers worked out Eddy Curry back then when the Bulls got him. So no surprise here, teams have the right to work out players.
> ...


In a word, no.


I am not a Paxson hater, but I will criticize him when I don't like what he's doing, thank you.

I think the minicamp is an interesting idea, but I think other things are more important now. I also think Jerry West made mistakes drafting Troy Bell and Dahntay Jones last year, and Drew Gooden a few years ago. Even the Logo is not beyond mistakes.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Thank you curry I am sick to death of finding any and everything to find fault with the man. He has had several workouts already and has some Friday lined up as well. Mostly late first round/second round guys so far but he will get to the 1st rounders soon enough. He may just be waiting until he knows what 1st rd pick he has. I mean who knows? If we get the #5-6 I suspect he will bring in a lot of the guys like JR Smith, Josh Smith,etc that you are pining for. Even if we get a top 3 pick we probably will still see them come in. I mean did we not see someone important last year? No. He did the job last year. What makes you think he won't this year? Easy. You just hate the man and will fault him for anything. I for one am sick to death of it.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

Never let objectivity get in the way of a good irrational argument. Then again, I have to consider the source. Pax is now to be crucified for looking at marginal players while waiting to find out where his team drafts. 

Apparently, the plus side to all of this is that since EVERY team has looked at EVERY player, that means there will be plenty of time for Pax to look at prospects as all the prospects have already worked out for every other team and they will have nothing better to do until draft day anyway.

It's encouraging to know that there are those individuals on this planet who seem to know what a person is going to do a full 30 days before hand.

No axes being ground here. Nope. No dead horses being beaten either. Nope. Just good objective debate.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

I have the impression that Pax has a pretty good idea what he wants to do with our top pick, whatever the number may be. He's trying to figure out what to do with the second round picks (potential second rounders aren't going to close out their workouts) and what what FAs we can tender offers to on a budget. we need more bodies than we have a budget for if we don't go looking for diamonds in the rough.

So I don't think its a total waste of time. At least assuming what I started out with, that we have a pretty good idea what we want to do with our first round pick.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

Beyong Arenas histronics.. its a valid point , unless ; 

As TBF says we already know where we are at 

And when you think about it its pretty easy 

#1 or #2 - Draft Okafor or Deng 

Anything other than #1 or #2 - Deal Pick for help now player and possibly mid first round pick where like it or not he will not choose a Telfair, Wright , Smith or an unproven Euro . For better of worse Pax buys American and he buys AT and T .. he don't buy DotCom or Bio Med

Consequently he will draft Luke Jackson or Kris Humphries types with a 15 to 20 pick if he can get it 

Maybe Pax thinks he already has his uber wunderkind preps to pros talent and he needs to construct _ a team _ yes a team - novel concept I know .. instead of stacking and racking sperm into our currently flawed gene pool 

Curry and Hinrich are the centerpieces. Check

Chander will be dealt for help now player or pick if we draft Okafor. Check.

Deng will be drafted and Chandler will be retained if we miss Okafor. Check.

Anything outside of Okafor and Deng in pick and we deal for best player we can get , unload a crap contract and try and get 15 - 20 position . Check.

Crawford will be retained up to $5.5M starting and if not will be signed and traded or just let go. Check

Reality. Check

Blood pressure monitor for Arenas and Lucas. Check.

That is the plan gentlemen and that is all 

Have a nice day


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> Never let objectivity get in the way of a good irrational argument. Then again, I have to consider the source. Pax is now to be crucified for looking at marginal players while waiting to find out where his team drafts.
> 
> Apparently, the plus side to all of this is that since EVERY team has looked at EVERY player, that means there will be plenty of time for Pax to look at prospects as all the prospects have already worked out for every other team and they will have nothing better to do until draft day anyway.
> ...


Again, I usually argue with Arenas 'till the cows come home, but this time I agree with him.

It's not good to blanketly criticize, but then again it's not good to blanketly criticize those who seem to blanketly criticize.  Sometimes they're right, no?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

This is silly really. We have a high lottery pick everyone and their brother will want to work out for the Bulls before the draft. And I don't think our lile NBDL mini-camp is really going to interfere with any of that....


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> This is silly really. We have a high lottery pick everyone and their brother will want to work out for the Bulls before the draft. And I don't think our lile NBDL mini-camp is really going to interfere with any of that....


One of those NBDL guys is going to be our starting 2 next season, if existing trends continue.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> This is silly really. We have a high lottery pick everyone and their brother will want to work out for the Bulls before the draft. And I don't think our lile NBDL mini-camp is really going to interfere with any of that....


It's not really the minicamp that bothers me. I just wish we had seen more good players already and that we see a whole bunch of the cats later. And I don't think Paxson will do it. Do you think he will get Jefferson and Aldridge in for a workout? JR Smith? I don't. I hope I'm wrong.

Why is this not a reasonable fear?


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

Beyond Arenas histronics.. its a valid point , unless ; 

As TBF says we already know where we are at 

And when you think about it its pretty easy 

#1 or #2 - Draft Okafor or Deng 

Anything other than #1 or #2 - Deal Pick for help now player and possibly mid first round pick where like it or not he will not choose a Telfair, Wright , Smith or an unproven Euro . For better of worse Pax buys American and he buys AT and T .. he don't buy DotCom or Bio Med

Consequently he will draft Luke Jackson or Kris Humphries types with a 15 to 20 pick if he can get it 

Maybe Pax thinks he already has his uber wunderkind preps to pros talent and he needs to construct _ a team _ yes a team - novel concept I know .. instead of stacking and racking sperm into our currently flawed gene pool 

Curry and Hinrich are the centerpieces. Check

Chander will be dealt for help now player or pick if we draft Okafor. Check.

Deng will be drafted and Chandler will be retained if we miss Okafor. Check.

Anything outside of Okafor and Deng in pick and we deal for best player we can get , unload a crap contract and try and get 15 - 20 position . Check.

Crawford will be retained up to $5.5M starting and if not will be signed and traded or just let go. Check

Reality. Check

Blood pressure monitor for Arenas and Lucas. Check.

That is the plan gentlemen and that is all 

Have a nice day


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

DMD what is wrong with it is you have nothing to base it on. Paxson was very thorough with working out guys last draft. Why would he not do that this time? You can't just assume he will screw up.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> This is silly really. We have a high lottery pick everyone and their brother will want to work out for the Bulls before the draft. And I don't think our lile NBDL mini-camp is really going to interfere with any of that....


Exactly!

If, after two or three weeks, Pax has only looked at Deng, Okafor and nodoby else then by all means, have at the guy. This whole witch hunt is getting a little old.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

If this is coming from somebody with more open-minded, I can see some merit in his argument. But Obviously Arenas you are one of most Paxon and Skile hater on this board and you are constantly start thread with hidden agenda to bash them.

That alone loses a lot of points argument-sake.

My point is that some of you want Paxon's head ever since couple of months into his GM era and now doing the same thing even before draft lottery, let alone draft.

Give him some break , you all.


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## Kramer (Jul 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> We're not looking at ANY of the Euro kids and that really bothers me, especially when I can't even think of a team that hasn't had Ohmerzodic in for a workout yet...
> 
> That kid has worked out for everyone...


I don't think Pax is allowed to take Ohmerzodic without a prescription.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Basghetti80</b>!
> DMD what is wrong with it is you have nothing to base it on. Paxson was very thorough with working out guys last draft. Why would he not do that this time? You can't just assume he will screw up.


I can question his thoroughness last year. He plans a trip to see Pietrus, cancels it, sends out some scouts to take a look at him, and then says he wasn't comfortable drafting a guy he didn't look at. I'd feel better if he would have seen him with his own eyes, even if he still would have picked Kirk.

I'm not saying he screwed it up already. I'm saying I fear that he won't do it what I consider the right way. IS THAT SO WRONG? :soapbox: But his idea that you don't try out a potential lottery player before the actual lottery is unnecessarily limiting, no?

I want Paxson to try out all of these players. I would settle for most of them, particularly those in the middle to top. If the list ends up being much smaller than this, I will be very disappointed.

Emeka Okafor
Josh Howard
Luol Deng
Andris Biedrins
Josh Smith
Andre Iguodala
Tiago Splitter
Josh Childress
Al Jefferson
Kirk Snyder
Dorell Wright
Sergei Monya
JR Smith
Luke Jackson (check)
Victor Khryapa
Kris Humphries
Trevor Ariza
Ryan Gomes
Robert Swift
Delonte West
Ricky Paulding
Anderson Varajao
Luka Bogdanovic
Damir Omerhodzic
Tony Allen
Romain Sato (check)
Matt Freije (check)
Andre Emmett


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> This is silly really. We have a high lottery pick everyone and their brother will want to work out for the Bulls before the draft. And I don't think our lile NBDL mini-camp is really going to interfere with any of that....


Ditto. No player in their right mind will turn down any opportunity to be drafted by the Bulls unless they got a guarantee from a team drafting higher. A player stands to lose millions by dropping from the early lottery to middle first round.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

DMD you can also check off Tony Allen(May 20th), Ryan Gomes (May 20th) along with Rickey Paulding and Delonte West, who will be in Chicago this upcoming Friday. He is doing the job. Give him time.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Basghetti80</b>!
> DMD you can also check off Tony Allen(May 20th), Ryan Gomes (May 20th) along with Rickey Paulding and Delonte West, who will be in Chicago this upcoming Friday. He is doing the job. Give him time.


Sweet. Thank you. I knew I missed some checks. 

I hope you're right. I'm probably jumping the gun, but I'm still worried.

What I really want most of all is for Paxson to give all the high school phenoms workouts except maybe Telfair and Livingston. Even they might be useful, as Kirk may get into a career threatening motorcycle accident this summer. :| 

I must give Paxson credit for that one. He was ready with Kirk last summer.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

I actually agree with pax in having a mini camp , its a good idea just like it was when kiki did it last year in denver when he had open tryouts , if it somehow stops him from seeing lotto-type prospects , then i'll recant and say in hindsight it was a bad idea , but if pax is already out on the floor watching the scrubs ..oh i'm sorry underdeveloped talents its nothing for him to invite the type of talent he actually likely to draft , a nagging problem in my head is that he's having this as a smokescreen for the fact that neither kirk , chandler or curry will be in summer league which i feel is a huge mistake , but that rant will come if they actually dont show up for those games ...and a bigger rant if tyson and eddy's off-season problems aren't fixed by the real camp in oct.


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

Why is it that everyone is blaming Pax and not Reinsdorf? Most probably the Bulls will have to sign a couple of this scrubs (Mini-Camp or low profile FAs) to fill their roster cause JR wont allow Pax to use the full MLE.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lgtwins</b>!
> If this is coming from somebody with more open-minded, I can see some merit in his argument.


I'm probably one of the more open-minded people on this board when it comes to the game of basketball, probably because I actually a clue about the game, read into that however you would like.

The problem with your "argument' is that because it comes from me the argument has no merit, but if were someone else, it would?

That's what you said, and you can save yourself and mine time by not trying to explain your way out of it.

Comments like that make about as much as sense as someone putting on their underwear after they put on the pants.

Like it or not, the point being made here is valid.

You can say stuff like oh who would turn down a chance to workout for the Bulls, oh we have plenty of time, ultimately, you guys are the ones talking nonsense, this is a business folks, and while other teams are taking names and crossing guys off their list, we're worrying about securing our summer league roster.

If you haven't worked out everyone, some of these guys are unknowns and have been under the radar, how can you be so sure you know who you're going to take?

I rather have seen 10 guys and been like wow and really have the pressure on me in regards to what to do with the pick instead of sitting back, calling it a day, assuming I have a #1 pick and that I'm going to get one of my 2 marked men.

I asked a question in like post 7, and 21 posts later no one has had a answer for it...

This isn't crucifying Pax, I'm not going to jump on this complacent, homeristic skateboard some of you are cruising along on, I'm looking at this as potentially missing the boat.

My #1 team is the Clips, haven't kept that secret and we're doing the right thing...

We've looked at unknowns and lotto picks in the past week, we've looked at guys that could ultimately be the headlines of the draft, and then I look at the Bulls and as a fan I see we have done the complete opposite, but I'm supposed to keep my mouth shut and keep smiling because that's what some of you do?

I'll pass.

Don't care if I'm not liked, don't care of you don't agree, you should get that by now...

If you disagree, that's fine, it's welcomed...

But at the end of the day I can look at what I say and truly believe I state enough legitimate reasons for why I feel what I feel, and I don't say it is a certain way because I said it is.

Some people here can do that, and that starts debates, that starts good discussions, others can just make a pointless post, saying oh this is just more Pax bashing, posts like that just mean you really have nothing better to say...

I guess I can't fault some of you, I mean hell, how can you have a debate about euro kids and players you have no clue who's names they are when you only have old tapes in your VCR of Adonis Jordan, Tyson Wheeler, Lou Roe and are praying we bring him in for a workout, but Marquinhos, Marriaga, Petro, etc. are just wastes of time....

Who needs those guys anyway, Okafor is in the draft!

Sigh.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> A lot of these guys that are working out for teams, if they get one guarantee, they're going to shut it down, which eliminates your chances of seeing them.


1. If a player is stupid enough to do that, we don't want them. 



> We're so fixated on Okafor and Deng, do we even have the knowledge to make a pick besides them?


Well, it's pretty clear that Paxson has or will work out the other top prospects. He's clearly looked at Dwight Howard quite a bit, and I take your scenario of all the other top prospects not working out or tanking workouts with the bulls as about as likely as the Earth being flat.



> Do you really want to be in a position where you're forced to use a #5 pick on Luke Jackson?
> 
> That's the question of the day...
> 
> I'll keep asking ?s no one seems to have an answer for, and we can keep giving Pax a pass for what I honestly believe is a HUGE mistake.


Probably for the same reasons I wouldn't take the time to argue the roundness of the earth


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> <b>I'm probably one of the more open-minded people on this board when it comes to the game of basketball, probably because I actually a clue about the game, read into that however you would like.</b>
> ...


Thanks for your very kind response. Very mature. And very funny.

Besides am I the only who are sick of your own agenda? At least some on this thread on my boat, I guess.

But is it really necessary to use this kind of defamatory statement whether you agree with others or not? I wonder.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> Well, it's pretty clear that Paxson has or will work out the other top prospects. He's clearly looked at Dwight Howard quite a bit, and I take your scenario of all the other top prospects not working out or tanking workouts with the bulls as about as likely as the Earth being flat.


What's pretty clear is that you didn't understand one word that I said...

No one said anythng about tanking workouts, I don't even know what you're talking about. 

The Earth isn't flat, but the post I just read was...and that doesn't happen often.

Read what I said, then try again....


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lgtwins</b>!
> 
> Thanks for your very kind response. Very mature. And very funny.
> 
> ...


What agenda?

I'm not running for President....

You had nothing to contribute to the argument except that someone is creating an agenda or blindly blasting Pax...

RC Buford could be our GM and doing this and I'd say the same thing...

There's people in this thread that agree with me, what is your response to them?

You've posted here 5 times yet you know my history here?

Perhaps you are someone else and decided to create a 2nd screen name and comment?

You even admitted the argument had merit, oh if it came from someone else...that's right...

You are definitely what I would I call mature.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

Sorry Arenas, I forgot.

You know everything. We or I don't know ****.

I will remember next time when I post. 

Peace.


(though, It seems like you are not that open-minded as you claim when it comes to someone who disagree with you let alone criticize you..... Ahhh, what can I say? I don't have a clue what I am saying, Right?)

Again, my whole point is why all blaming and why NOW? Considerring what Paxon did last year under special circumstance (and he did quite well, don't you agree ? No? Kirk wasn't nice catch?), I think you should give him a little bit of more credit. Or at least wait till the actual draft before starting bashing him.

Is that really that far-fetched suggestion?


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lgtwins</b>!
> Sorry Arenas, I forgot.
> 
> You know everything. We or I don't know ****.
> ...


Again, you've posted here 6 times and you know my history?

Hmm...

I'm not talking about last year's draft, next year's draft, the 2006 draft, this is about this draft.

You've yet to make an actual point, I don't care about being criticized or disagreed with, but your response has just been oh you're just bashing Pax instead of responding to what I actually said, to why I actually have a problem with what's going on.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

yeah Pax won't work anybody else out but Luke Jackson and Sato 

I wonder if we'll get a thread that accuses Pax of having girls chained up in his basement. That makes about as much sense.

other points being missed:

Pax is gay
Pax doesn't brush his teeth
Pax is trafficking steroids for undersized water polo players
Pax is funding Zarqawi
Pax is plotting to facilitate Shrek III logos on the basepaths next season
Pax will try and trade for Bruno Sudov
Pax adopts puppies and sells them to the Military ammo tests 
Pax wants to hire Chalabi to run the summer league squad
Pax will go to a 6'5 and under philosophy soon
Pax will take Arenas's parking space again
Pax Like John Stephens
Pax believes in global warming
Pax is ready for a sex change
Pax will only work out small college players in the future
Pax wants us all to live on sushi
Pax is a likely Monopoly cheater
Pax has not switched to Geiko
Pax breaks into mailboxes for fun
Pax likes Tom Skilling as a fashion guide
Pax likely refuses to buckle up
Pax will force the Bulls to listen to Bossa Nova
Pax is the type who won't support a balanced budget
Pax appears to have an predilection towards D*%k jokes
Pax probably will support a Catholic Church that contributes money to satanists

More points to come


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> yeah Pax won't work anybody else out but Luke Jackson and Sato
> 
> I wonder if we'll get a thread that accuses Pax of having girls chained up in his basement. That makes about as much sense.
> ...


I find your post insulting.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> More points to come


Spare me, please.

BTW, Sato's stock is dropping like a rock...

RIF.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Spare me, please.
> ...


spare you? Hey you are the one who began making dumb points


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> One of those NBDL guys is going to be our starting 2 next season, if existing trends continue.


One of these NBDL guys will be our starting pg if the trend continues. It's almost a parody. While the rest of the NBA draws their talent from Europe, highschool, and the like, tHe Bulls cut the chase and go straight to (thats right) the developmental leagues. Yes, we all are overreacting and getting our panties in a bunch, but still -- you couldn't make this stuff up. Every other team is doing heavy scouting overseas and the Bulls are looking to who, the Gary Steelheads???


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> One of these NBDL guys will be our starting pg if the trend continues. It's almost a parody. While the rest of the NBA draws their talent from Europe, highschool, and the like, tHe Bulls cut the chase and go straight to (thats right) the developmental leagues. Yes, we all are overreacting and getting our panties in a bunch, but still -- you couldn't make this stuff up. Every other team is doing heavy scouting overseas and the Bulls are looking to who, the Gary Steelheads???


more fears to come. arenas is now worried that Pax would promote the Burka, which MAY become popular with "females" in his special ed class :uhoh:


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> What's pretty clear is that you didn't understand one word that I said...
> ...


Well, it's pretty easy to misunderstand something that's not understandible. 

Wasn't your point that because of this camp, the Bulls wouldn't get to work out some of the draft's top prospects because they either wouldn't agree to a workout or they wouldn't workout "hard" (a la the conjecture about JR Smith).

You're right, I don't understand that possibility at all because it makes no sense. I repeat, if a player is so stupid that he will not come in for a workout (and therefore possibly give up millions to be drafted higher than he's been "guaranteed") then that player is a ****ing moron and shouldn't be touched. Because all other considerations aside, a player has to be smart enough to know that, if a better player became available, a teams promise to take a player will become very flimsy. 

Are there any players we are likely to not work out in the next month that we should? Doubtful. Very doubtful. And if we don't, I don't see how it has anything to do with players being unavailable for workouts. We've got a whole month to look at what, another 20 or 30 or so guy (who come in 2 or 3 or 4 at a time). 

At the same time, the whole process has to be understood withing the complexity of scheduling workouts for like 30+ players for 30 teams. If Telfair and Gordon, for example, are working out with the Clippers, they obviously can't be working out in Chicago at the same time. 

Given that there Paxson appeared wholely and completely capable of scheduling workouts last year, and got to see everyone of note, I think, except Pietrus, I think to assume he suddenly forgot how to do it doesn't make much sense at all.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> Given that there Paxson appeared wholely and completely capable of scheduling workouts last year, and got to see everyone of note, I think, except Pietrus, I think to assume he suddenly forgot how to do it doesn't make much sense at all.


whaaa????? Haven't you seen the case arenas has laid out? Its air tight. There is no rational way for you to think this Mike. Not after the open and shut case evidence arenas has presented. 

There will be no workouts, no Gatorade, and no soup for you


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

I think my reason for piping in along with Arenas comes from the fear that Paxson is going to blindly dismiss some high schooler who will probably get drafted in the "trade down range" (6 to mid 20's). I want him to be open minded enough to give all these people workouts. I just don't think it's going to happen. If I'm wrong, I'll eat crow, no problem. But last year the draft wasn't targeted around a huge group of high schoolers like it is this year. I know Paxson knows what he wants, but my wish is that he sees just about everyone to see if even some of the HS kids fit into his vision. This draft is just too deep.

And I did not like the way the Pietrus situation shook down last year.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, it's pretty easy to misunderstand something that's not understandible.
> ...


Mike, you've got to stop this. You're making too much sense and some folks just don't respond well to well thought out, nicely reasoned posts like yours. You've got to make irrational statements and back them up with double-speak and nonsense. 

Pax will work out his players, and there will be plenty of them. At such point in time, I await with less than baited breath to find out what his next shortcomming is. I'm thinking Fleetwood Macbull has hit upon the next Paxson bashing thread subject within the next two weeks.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> One of these NBDL guys will be our starting pg if the trend continues. It's almost a parody. While the rest of the NBA draws their talent from Europe, highschool, and the like, tHe Bulls cut the chase and go straight to (thats right) the developmental leagues.


Go look at who Orlando is saying they worked out:
http://www.chicagobulls.com/magic/

and the Hawks
http://www.chicagobulls.com/hawks/news/draft2004_workout_040525.html

(note that JR Smith worked out today and it was only his second workout)

and the Wizards
(whoops... no info on their site about working out anyone... maybe they haven't yet)

and the Clippers, who Arenas misleadingly cites as an example of "doing it right" by bringing in Nelson and Telfair appear to have brought in few other players:

http://www.nba.com/clippers/news/draft04_workouts.html

Thus, the bottom line is that it looks like the Bulls have been, if anything, looking at as many or even MORE guys than other teams by this point. Most teams seem to be waiting until laters (perhaps for anong other thingscommon sense stuff like the draft order being determined) to bring in the heavy hitters.



> Yes, we all are overreacting and getting our panties in a bunch


I would agree if you'd left it at that....



> , but still -- you couldn't make this stuff up. Every other team is doing heavy scouting overseas and the Bulls are looking to who, the Gary Steelheads???


... that doesn't seem to be the case... by looking at all those other teams that are drafting high, they also seem to be looking at second tier college prospects right now. The only difference I see is that the Bulls appear to be doing more.

Now I'd agree that in general the Bulls haven't been paying the attention they should to Europe (and this is going back 5-10 years, nothing new), but at this point that seems to be calling in an old grievance and exercising some slight of hand because there's really nothing in what the Bulls are doing right now to complain about.


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## Hawks4ever (Jun 6, 2002)

Did you see Kirk Snyder's answers on the Hawks site? I think he could be a possibility


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> I think my reason for piping in along with Arenas comes from the fear that Paxson is going to blindly dismiss some high schooler who will probably get drafted in the "trade down range" (6 to mid 20's). I want him to be open minded enough to give all these people workouts. I just don't think it's going to happen. If I'm wrong, I'll eat crow, no problem. But last year the draft wasn't targeted around a huge group of high schoolers like it is this year. I know Paxson knows what he wants, but my wish is that he sees just about everyone to see if even some of the HS kids fit into his vision. This draft is just too deep.
> 
> And I did not like the way the Pietrus situation shook down last year.


DMD, I think this is a valid point at least, but I'm just arguing that the anger seems to be mis-placed. That is, if Paxson simply refuses to work out someone, it's not going to be because he didn't have time to fit him in, it's going to be because he didn't want to look at the guy. To quote a line from a certain TV show Sunday night:

"John, you're the boss, you can do whatever the **** you want"

"OK, then I choose not to".

Anyway, the point is that as far as I can tell by looking at other teams in similar situations, the Bulls are looking at more players, not less. I share your fears about Paxson being blinded to certain "types" of players, but I don't think one can fairly look at what he's done over the last month or so and find any solid evidence to confirm those fears.

In contrast, the most obvious pieces of evidence I've seen have, if anything, pointed in the other direction. He gave a nice endorsement of Howard and he invited freaking Leon Smith- the damn poster boy for cluessless high-schoolers- in for a workout.

Nor does Paxson say anything at all eyebrow raising about looking at prospects:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bull19.html

'Although we will have the option of using the pick or trading it, we want to bring in and see as many of the top prospects as we possibly can,'' Paxson said Tuesday"

But I won't rule anything out. We'd be foolish to do that. We owe it to ourselves to try to look at everybody we can because there are some unbelievably talented kids in this draft.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

I agree its a little early to say pax wont see all the people he needs to ...but at the same time it is very hard to find a lottery teams in the top 10 who has had fewer 1st round pick talent in than pax he is getting a late start on that and seeing how he did miss out on pietrus as he didn't see him at all ...there is the fear he may not get his work in.

both sides have points but its a lil' too early to set your positions ...at least you have to wait to see where pax is picking from .

but even then if he is going to entertain a trade down or even a trade of a core player he needs to get out and see players and have as many as possible of the top 30 or so come in.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> I agree its a little early to say pax wont see all the people he needs to ...but at the same time it is very hard to find a lottery teams in the top 10 who has had fewer 1st round pick talent in than pax he is getting a late start on that and seeing how he did miss out on pietrus as he didn't see him at all ...there is the fear he may not get his work in.


? I'm not asking this to be a dick, but which teams have had which players in? I don't see much difference there between what the Bulls have done and what other teams in similar positions have done.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

Ive been critical of Pax myself but I have the feeling that its a 2 player draft for him .If he doesnt get #1 or #2 its a trade and he already knows this .

I get the feeling that this is gonna be one of the worst drafts ever .Ive never seen such hype being thrown around on players who havent accomplished anything .


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> This minicamp we're holding right now absolutely positively disgusts me...
> 
> What in the hell are we doing?
> ...


I said it in the draft thread and Ill say it again here .

This camp is not about the draft .Its about getting some healthy bodies into the Berto for the rest of the summer so the Bulls can have some scrimmages .Giving 5-6 of these guys the oppurtunity to to maybe make the summer league team and later MAYBE a training camp invite is enough to get them out to the Bulls practice facility which is not in Chicago .

Youre making a big deal out of nothing because depending on where we pick Pax could be finishing working out 1st rd prospects in 3 days .


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> ? I'm not asking this to be a dick, but which teams have had which players in? I don't see much difference there between what the Bulls have done and what other teams in similar positions have done.


pick a team i'll tell you they brought in ...for instance atl has actually had a couple players in for a 2nd time already ...that byu center and col. harrison.

all the lottery teams are bringing in players now and seemingly every day ...you can check hoopshype to see what players have been visiting teams over the last couple of days.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

OK, Hoopshype has a list of workouts:

http://www.hoopshype.com/workouts.htm
http://www.hoopshype.com/past_workouts.htm

I'm not going to bother with the first ones because it's very likely an incomplete list. The past ones might be too, but I'd venture there's a little more certainty to them (although clearly it's not complete... I know, for example, we've worked out Jackson).

Anyway, what we see is that there are very few teams that seem to have worked out a lot of sure 1st rounders. Based on Hoopshype's projections only 9 guys they project as lottery, mid or late 1st round picks have worked out:

Lottery picks:
Josh Childress: Charlotte

Mid-first:
Omerhodzic: Denver
JR Smith: Boston, Atlanta, Portland
Araujo: New Orleans, Charlotte, Atlanta
Nelson: Phoenix, Utah, Clippers
Telfair: Portland, Utah, Clippers
K. Humphries: Lakers

Late First:
Harrison: Atlanta
Wright: Boston

Also note that this means what. Of the guys it is being complained we haven't worked out, almost no one has worked out many of them:

Atlanta: 3
Boston 2
Charlotte: 2
Utah: 2
Clippers: 2
Portland: 2
New Orleans: 1
Phoenix: 1
Denver: 1
Lakers 1

No one is listed as having yet worked out any Howard, Deng, Livingston, Josh Smith, Devin Harris, Iggy, or any of the major European prospects. Most of the major prospects aren't on the list and most of the lottery teams haven't looked at many guys according to the list. In short, I think there is no merit to this line of criticism.


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## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Comments like that make about as much as sense as someone putting on their underwear after they put on the pants.


You dissin Superman ?


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> OK, Hoopshype has a list of workouts:
> 
> http://www.hoopshype.com/workouts.htm
> ...


with the exception of telfair in clipperland and jr smith no is really working out high schoolers ..its may, they are still in school and the euros are in their euro tourneys they onlys one who are coming over have already been elimintated from their playoffs and thats only a handful really . 

the college guys are really the only ones who are mostly available for workouts , and obviously not all the players worked out are listed (luke jax is absent from the list from when he worked out in chi.)

but the players who are making the rounds are for some reason with the exception of luke aren't coming here in the near future.

but with the bulls in their losing ways should be among the most active in this search and they aren't close , seeing one guy at this point is on the low side considering their mini camp will stop them from looking for a few days , and there really is no excuse for it , it should be gotten out the way as soon as possible


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> You and Curry are both using the same cop out...
> ...


Cop out I respectfully disagree. You are speaking of things as being fact when they may not be. My opinion, arenas. I just mentioned there is more to the story than what you are saying and what we are being told. 

Who said we will use a #5 pick on Jackson? You are assuming alot of speculation as being fact. 

Now if you can voice your displeasure bout paxson and do so, so forcefully don't you think you can at least look at a difference of opinion as not being a cop out?

As for what have grizzard and others done? Nothing. I agree. But you are aware that Bill Laimbeer never came right out of college and played in the pros don't you? He is an example of someone who can work on their game and make a career of it. I am not saying we have a laimbeer in the draft but to dismiss anyone is silly. 

I also stand by my statement which you never addressed. IF one of these guys pan out, some posters on here would hang John for not looking at him. And that IS a fact. 

And as I said before we have plenty of time...Could be a trade agreed to. Truth is, we do not know what is really going on. Just speculatiion from you and me.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Possibly, but I don't think so. I think you worry about blue chip draft prospects as opposed to summer league roster spots. Sure, if Rod Grizzard or someone else ends up being a diamond in the rough, if could be great. But I'd rather be looking at 2004 draft candidates now, or at least looking at more of them AND having the minicamp.
> ...


And who is to say that once he finds out just where he will draft, he could look at some people? We do have time. And who is to say that the scheduling is not right yet? Players cannot work our everywhere at once. 

Me too. If we see everyone I like, I will be happy.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> Never let objectivity get in the way of a good irrational argument. Then again, I have to consider the source. Pax is now to be crucified for looking at marginal players while waiting to find out where his team drafts.
> 
> Apparently, the plus side to all of this is that since EVERY team has looked at EVERY player, that means there will be plenty of time for Pax to look at prospects as all the prospects have already worked out for every other team and they will have nothing better to do until draft day anyway.
> ...


Damn fl_flash...you make too much since.


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## dsouljah9 (Jul 9, 2002)

Arenas is right, we should be looking at top guys and not a bunch of scrubs that won't make the team

<i>:::crawls back under rock:::</i>


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Spare me, please.
> ...


And that means what??? Nothing. Many good if not great players are taken in the second round.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

*Re: Re: The Point That's Being Missed*



> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> 
> I said it in the draft thread and Ill say it again here .
> ...


Makes sense. Never thought of it that way.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Interesting...no GB and theres still lots of fighting going on...

This is a senseless argument.

Pax is a winner...he's not going to hurt his chances with the top talent to look at scrubs.

:sigh:


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> Go look at who Orlando is saying they worked out:
> ...


Oh come on MIke,

You don't find it the least bit funny that the Bulls are the only team heavily scouting the D leagues during the middle of summer?


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Ok a little of a conspiracy idea

John Paxson is working out a trade with the Blazers, Jazz, or Celtics for their multiple picks. He is trying to overhype these scrubs he is bringing in, and trying not to hype a player like last year with 3 workouts for Dwyane Wade and lose a player. He is trying to get crappier players taken earlier so he could get the players he wants with later picks in the draft. Just an idea.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

OMG you guys can make mountain from a mohill


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh come on MIke,
> ...


Not "normal", sure, but I don't find anything objectionable about it. As I've endeavored to point out, the Bulls don't seem to be doing much differently regarding their draft workout schedules. And there's nothing to suggest they AREN'T going to be able to work out players they want to work out. So the bottom line is that they're doing something in addition to what every other team seems to be doing... I don't see how that deserves a heaping helping of criticism.

This move makes sense for all kinds of reasons.

1. This is a natural lull period because the real and really important prospect workouts don't start in earnest until after the lottery when more about positioning is set and more teams start scheduling workouts.

2. This team ought to be looking under every rock it can.

3. Looking at some of these guys provides a nice baseline against which one can compare the prospects they're looking at.

4. Several of those guys, like Tommy Smith and Charlie Bell have been playing overseas. That makes for another level of comparison because it's the competition level some of the Euro guys we're looking at are playing against.

5. Like TRUTHHURTS pointed out, we need to fill up our summer and camp team with someone. Given that this is a period before we start working out most guys anyway, it's not a bad way to accomplish something that needs to get accomplished while filling up a dead space.

Honestly, I think the criticism is totally unwarranted... and it's not like I haven't been a pretty vocal critic of a bunch of the stupid **** Paxson has pulled. Hell, I've called for him to be fired, but I see lots of people reading more into this than ought to be read. I just don't think this is evidence of much of anything.... to look at this move and say it's evidence that Pax is somehow ****ing up, I think you really have to presume it to begin with.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

This is the last thing I'm going to say on this....

If you choose not to be alarmed, it's not because there isn't a reason, it's just because you choose not to be, is that right or wrong? Neither side is, including mine...

I'm going to continue to ? what we're doing for now because IMO there is reason to...

Some of you say no big deal on this but you're also posting in other threads about how mad you are Eddy Curry isn't at Berto yet?

Please...

The timing of this camp is the issue moreso than the camp itself...

We will have our next workout Friday....

We're looking at Donta Smith and Ricky Minard...

The same day Cleveland is looking at Ben Gordon, Peja Samradziski, Damir Ohmerzodic...

Saturday they're looking at a PG battle between Antonio Burks, Marcelo Huertas, and Telfair...

There's definitely a difference between one Pax and the other...

You gotta get the jump, you can't let teams get a edge, I'm sorry, but I just believe that, and I believe you're allowing other teams to do that if you're looking at CBA players while the rest of league is establishing relationships with potential big names from the draft...


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

I saw the news tonight and they showed some of the minicamp and skiles there working them out .This guy is a straight gym rat and will probably be there every day this summer .

Anyone who has followed the Bulls closely in the summer knows that most fa's dont go to the Berto even though all nba players have access to any teams acilities during the offseason.The Berto is just too far outside the city for a player staying for a day or two to make that trek to shoot some baskets so they go to hoops or to the health club.

We have at the Berto Dupree,Lynton,Pargo,Kirk ,Tyson (who probably is not allowed too much contact right now )

I think Eddy and jamal will show up next week but thats still not enough to scrimmage full court and Im sure that Skiles is gonna address this by adding some of these players to make it .

Pax tonight was at his suns graduation hes not even running the camp it was skiles show .


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kramer</b>!
> 
> I don't think Pax is allowed to take Ohmerzodic without a prescription.


I think this is one of the funniest posts I have read on this baord in a long long time


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

This is really silly and beneath your level of posting IMO arenas. What Pax is doing is something in ADDITTION to working out prospects. Heck it might help because he can use some of these guys for scrimmages or to even match up against the prospects to get an idea where they are at. For instance maybe if Okafor can't beat the crap out of Leon Smith in 21 he isn't worth the 1st pick? In any case, the Bulls will undoubtedly work out a butload of players and there is no rush to work these guys out, we have right up until the draft, a whole month. Simply put there is no doubt the Bulls will work out a bunch of players...a 3 day mincamp doesn't distract from that and could actually be useful. I give Pax Kudos for doing it personally. I'm not thinking any of these NBDL kids is going to be a star or anything but maybe we can find one tiny back up piece out of the bunch and thats a step forward.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> This is the last thing I'm going to say on this....
> 
> If you choose not to be alarmed, it's not because there isn't a reason, it's just because you choose not to be, is that right or wrong? Neither side is, including mine...
> ...


And how are teams getting the edge arenas? The draft is not Monday. Players work out for teams one team at a time. When Cleveland works out players one day that means the other 29 teams do not. Not just the bulls. Our time will come, IF we are interested in them. 

I repeat my stance. We have plenty of time. 

John is leaving no stone unturned

As was said earlier in this thread, could be trying to get bodies together to work out draft picks and to work out the players on the team at the berto center that showed up.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> This is really silly and beneath your level of posting IMO arenas. What Pax is doing is something in ADDITTION to working out prospects. Heck it might help because he can use some of these guys for scrimmages or to even match up against the prospects to get an idea where they are at. For instance maybe if Okafor can't beat the crap out of Leon Smith in 21 he isn't worth the 1st pick? In any case, the Bulls will undoubtedly work out a butload of players and there is no rush to work these guys out, we have right up until the draft, a whole month. Simply put there is no doubt the Bulls will work out a bunch of players...a 3 day mincamp doesn't distract from that and could actually be useful. I give Pax Kudos for doing it personally. I'm not thinking any of these NBDL kids is going to be a star or anything but maybe we can find one tiny back up piece out of the bunch and thats a step forward.


What is silly about it?

I don't have a problem with the camp, but does the camp have to be held right now?

Everyone else in the league is holding draft workouts and we're holding a camp of players that haven't been heard from whatsoever in years?

It's not like we're holding minicamp and workouts at the same time...we don't have workouts again until Friday.

Today while we're looking at Leon Smith vs Tommy Smith, Denver is watching Ha Seung-Jin and Cleiton Sebastiao....

What's silly is not seeing the basic issue that I've presented at hand, you're allowing everyone else to get a jump on players, and for what, so you can secure your summer league roster?


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> What is silly about it?
> ...


:laugh: 


We have held some workouts already everyone outside the lottery basically has their draft position pretty much locked in So they have they baasically have to workout more players as what they do will be highly based on what the teams ahead of them does .

Make no mistake its a 2 player draft for us .Okafor ,Deng or trade the pick for a veteran player and pick up whoever falls to us .

Youre really making this bigger than it needs to be .You do know the nba predraft camp is held IN chicago and all the top prospects and even a ton of euros are here to either workout or have their measurements taken .

Over the course of that week pax can see just about everyone he has to see .

The camp was basically a Skiles thing and why do you think it was held now ?Because pax has family business going on this week and Bj armstrong is in NY so you bring in these guys now .

Ive got my issues with Pax a ton of them but I see nothing wrog with what hes doing now .Its actualy a good idea.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> What is silly about it?
> ...


It's silly because this little 3 day minicamp isn't really going to eat into the Bulls bringing in draft prospects to look at, there is still PLENTY of time before the draft. And, since technically pax can't work out NBA players against some of these prospects maybe he will work some NBDL all stars out against them? In any case, it's 3 days...hardly as serious as your making it out to be. There is no "get the jump" mentality. Players WILL come work out for teh Bulls becasue they WANT to be drafted with a high pick which the Bulls have.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> It's silly because this little 3 day minicamp isn't really going to eat into the Bulls bringing in draft prospects to look at, there is still PLENTY of time before the draft. And, since technically pax can't work out NBA players against some of these prospects maybe he will work some NBDL all stars out against them? In any case, it's 3 days...hardly as serious as your making it out to be. There is no "get the jump" mentality. Players WILL come work out for teh Bulls becasue they WANT to be drafted with a high pick which the Bulls have.


Wrong.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> ...


Keep laughing, but I'm the one that actually can...

By your logic, why scout Europe at all if we can just wait until the pre-draft camp to see them?

Anyone want to explain why the Lakers have worked out Biedrins, but we haven't?

Splitter, Marquinhos, Petro, etc. are guys that won't be here until AFTER the draft, if waiting for guys to come to you is the answer for you, I just really don't know what to say.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Wrong.


hard to argue that sort of infallible logic lol.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> hard to argue that sort of infallible logic lol.


lol....sorry Ace, I just really didn't know what more to say...

You know we're cool regardless.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

I find it amusing that some people here have already got their draft order established based on internet reports, scouting reports from other teams, and video footage but are calling Pax out for not bringing their favs in for a workout.

If we are so smart that we can make our decision w/o a workout, why isn't Pax?

I'm not suggesting he won't bring them in, but the idea that those of us who only see the games and read about the rest know more about this process than Pax is relatively ridiculous.

BTW -- as others (noteably *trueblue!*) have pointed out, this is not happening INSTEAD of draftee workouts, but in addition to it. Shouldn't we be applauding?

How do some of us become so fascinated by our own opinions? Nature? ...........or nurture? I used to think my own crap was beautiful. Then I grew up.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> BTW -- as others (noteably *trueblue!*) have pointed out, this is not happening INSTEAD of draftee workouts, but in addition to it. Shouldn't we be applauding?


Whoever stated that is INCORRECT...

I would applaud, however, we've decided to take 3 days off from workouts and instead hold this camp.

Obviously, this thread doesn't exist if what you said was the case...


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> I would applaud, however, we've decided to take 3 days off from workouts and instead hold this camp.


Though your ettiquette leaves a lot to be desired, I will not fault your basketball knowledge. You are clearly up on what is happening. So you've seen this link . In fact, it's what has caused you t start this thread.

You've also seen that we host the pre-draft camp........... for all draftees who choose to participate.

To me, the 16 guys Pax chose to bring in are less known commodities. Guys who may get overlooked if they're not brought in earlier. Also, potential choices for our second rounders, or possible options for a trade down.

What more do we need to know about Deng? Okafor? Gordon? There's a reason these guys are projected in the top. Everyone knows who they are. They are (for the most part) known commodities. "Let's bring in the blue guy today and see if he's still blue." What's the point to this?

Also, perhaps, we will be more active after we know the draft order. If we draft #1 or #2 and are sure we want who we want, then what's the point of looking elsewhere? I just think you have too little information to be blowing up this much about a seemingly minor issue.

I am interested, BTW, to see a link to any team that hosts a workout EVERY DAY. Since you feel like having a 3-day mini-camp is causing us to miss work-outs.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> 
> 
> Though your ettiquette leaves a lot to be desired, I will not fault your basketball knowledge. You are clearly up on what is happening. So you've seen this link . In fact, it's what has caused you t start this thread.
> ...


I sure hope for the sanity of the organization and some guys on this board we don't end up with a 5 or 6 pick...

I think management and lot of you guys here are basically feeling like Deng/Okafor is already ours, if that were the case, I could see the point some of you making, if this ultimately is not the case, we will have a lot of work ahead of us.

There are no guarantees in this business, you can't be relaxed and put yourself in a position where you're left holding the bag.

I think ultimately I'm looking at this from the business perspective involved in this whole thing, and as fans some of you are looking at it the other way, I'm not going to see either of us is right or wrong, I guess we just end up disagreeing....

I just hate being labeled that I'm making a federal case for no reason, when I honestly don't see how this is me searching for something to bash Pax here, this is a legitimate gripe IMO.


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