# Merged Again: Pistons Pacers Brawl



## socco

*Holy Crap*

Big Ben the spaz!!!!!


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## Captain Obvious

HOLY ****!!!


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## ToddMacCulloch11

Artest attacked some guy in the stands! holy crap. Who thought sheed would ever be breaking up a fight.


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## visionary432

OMG


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## Jewelz

**** me! THE ENTIRE BUILDING IS A RIOT!


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## socco

HOLY ****!!!!!!!!


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## Tersk

What happened


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## socco

Somebody threw a bottle on Artest, and he went up and clocked him in the face.
Stephen Jackson nailed a guy in the face too.


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## Jewelz

OMG, this is unbelievable!


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## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Jewelz</b>!
> OMG, this is unbelievable!


This is SWEET!!!!!!!!


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## Tooeasy

OH MY ****ING GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! craziest **** ever.


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## Debt Collector

piston fans worse than philly fans


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## reHEATed

piston fans are claseless


CLASSLESS


CLASSLESS


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## ToddMacCulloch11

the pistons fans are out of control...Yeah, its a ****ty situation, but there is no reason it should turn into this.


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## Jewelz

Detroit SUCKS!


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## qwerty

Terrible showing by the pistons fans.


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## socco

This is a HORRIBLE day for the Pistons franchise.


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## reHEATed

CLASSLESS


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## socco

I am taping it, I'll try to upload it somewhere soon for those who didn't see.
I missed the first 30 seconds, but I got the good stuff.


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## Nate505

Piston fans, the epitome of class......


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## Tooeasy

artest ****in went ape**** on that fan. seriously, that was the most solid player/fan fight ive ever seen in the nba.


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## deranged40

What a bunch of classless pieces of ****. Detroit fans should be ashamed of themselves. Who would've thought Rasheed Wallace would've been the classiest and most in control out of everyone in that arena?


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## Captain Obvious

I was about to post how that altercation was 99% Wallace's fault, then Artest went crazy. Jim Grey explains the fan dumped a beer and crap on him from like 2 feet away. Oh my ****ing god, I've never seen anything like this. The game was called, WTF is going on?


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## MiamiHeat03

WOW!!

I never seen this before!!


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## Max Payne

WHAT THE **** IS HAPPENING ???? IT'S A ****ING WAR ZONE DOWN THERE ?????


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## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> I was about to post how that altercation was 99% Wallace's fault, then Artest went crazy. Jim Grey explains the fan dumped a beer and crap on him from like 2 feet away. Oh my ****ing god, I've never seen anything like this. The game was called, WTF is going on?


Yeah, I saw the bottle or whatever hit Artest in the chest, and I knew he was going off, I didn't expect this though.


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## ToddMacCulloch11

I wonder what the suspension situation is gonna be...


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## Jewelz

Well I guess Artest's CD won't sell too good in the Detroit Area :no:


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## Primetime23

JO knocked that guy out!!!


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## Pacers Fan

Best. Fight. Ever.

Ron might be gone the rest of the year.


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## reHEATed

> Originally posted by <b>ToddMacCulloch11</b>!
> I wonder what the suspension situation is gonna be...


Artest long time
S Jackson around 5 games

Big Ben around 3

punching fans is unacceptbale even though I blame the piston fans and big ben for starting this whole thing up


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## Hibachi!

HOLY ****! Artest not the brightest star in the sky is he... 1 on an entire fanbase... Nice...


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## Pan Mengtu

I've never seen anything like that.

Ben Wallace, Ron Artest, and Stephen Jackson should be suspended.

Several of those fans should be arrested.


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## JerryWest

This is one time when I am with Artest.

Taunting ok. Just because you buy ticket doesn't be disrespectful like that and throw stuff at players. I hope that guy got a good beating.


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## Idunkonyou

LMAO!!!! :laugh: 

ESPN just called the Piston fans sissies, LOL!!!!! :laugh:


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## Don Corleone

Detroit fans causing a ruckus? What a shocker


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## ToddMacCulloch11

It wasn't that hard of a foul to begin with.


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## Vinsanity

no video yet?


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## Jewelz

Ron Artest = GOD

My Hero!


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## Hibachi!

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> Best. Fight. Ever.


:laugh: :yes:


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## Ghost

I want to see a video of this, Anyone got one?


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## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>wadeshaqeddie</b>!
> 
> 
> Artest around 5 games
> S Jackson around 5 games
> 
> Big Ben around 3
> 
> punching fans is unacceptbale even though I blame the piston fans and big ben for starting this whole thing up


Several of those fans should be arrested too. They were punching back.


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## Idunkonyou

Artest should have killed the basterd.


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## Tersk

Did anyone else see that ****ing bald guy hit the **** out of Artest, only to be smashed by him. S-Jax is a ****ing nutcase and poor Pacers. Did you see when they were walking away, ****ing beer being thrown thats horrible (yet cool)


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## Primetime23

not only are the Pistons fans classless they're cowards too

the one guy threw beer on artest and ran when stephen jackson got him, and on the floor two fns tried to go at Artest before he tapped one of them on the jaw


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## SignGuyDino

Artest: 20 games...yes I'd do the same thing, but the NBA has no choice.

Plenty of time to promote his album now...


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## GNG

**** the Detroit fans in attendance tonight. This is _historical_ in the level of classlessness.

Bunch of ****ing disgraces. Many of them deserve to be arrested.

Ben Wallace deserves the longest suspension of any of the players playing tonight.


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## Jewelz

This is a once in a lifetime experience! Man this is the best thing ever to happen in the history of sports!

I loved it when Artest got beer thrown on him and he went up and started choking and punching the ******* in the stands


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## SamTheMan67

the pacers are gonna get it in the *** on this one , artest really has gone over the edge!!


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## Debt Collector

i will never say a bad thing about artest again


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## Jewelz

> Originally posted by <b>SignGuyDino</b>!
> Artest: 20 games...yes I'd do the same thing, but the NBA has no choice.
> 
> *Plenty of time to promote his album now...*


:laugh: 

:yes:


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## Tersk

The award for quickest thread to turn on fire = this one


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## ToddMacCulloch11

I love how artest was just laying down on the table scorers...that was very rodman like.


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## Arclite

Ron Artest is my new favorite player. 

What a load of bull**** from Detroit fans. **** those Piston fans. ***** *** ***** mother ****ers. Man that's bull****. Especially that huge fat *** who started wailing on Tinsley from behind. Asshat.


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## Nate505

> Originally posted by <b>KennethTo</b>!
> This is one time when I am with Artest.
> 
> Taunting ok. Just because you buy ticket doesn't be disrespectful like that and throw stuff at players. I hope that guy got a good beating.


I agree. I hate Artest in general, and truly believe that this wouldn't have happened with most players, but that fan who was punching him from behind deserves a good rear end kicking.

That being said, Artest shouldn't have gone in the stands anyway. Yeah, someone chucked a beer at him and that's wrong, but you got to keep your cool there, and you're getting paid quite a bit of money to do so. He'll get a long suspension for this, and a lot of it will be deserved.


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## Debt Collector

*THIS IS NOT ARTESTS FAULT* 

watch him get the blame, i would have snapped


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## .fusion.

Pacers were HUMILIATED! this shows what type of fans detroit has...


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## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>SignGuyDino</b>!
> Artest: 20 games...yes I'd do the same thing, but the NBA has no choice.
> 
> Plenty of time to promote his album now...


Not a chance. You find the person on the tape, and throw him in jail.

Artest deserves a medal for what he did. He's my new favorite non-Grizzly.


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## Idunkonyou

Why should any of the players get suspended? All they were doing was protecting themselves. 

If it was me, I would have grabbed a monitor and thrown it into the stands.


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## Jewelz

I'll be the first one to buy his new Album :yes: 

Artest showed ALOT of Integrity to those Detroit fans


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## socco

Those who say Artest should get the biggest suspension, why? The fan attacked him, he did nothing wrong. Ben shoudl be out 10 games, cus he started it. Artest 3 maybe. Jackson about 5. Maybe a couple for Sheed too, even though he was trying to break it up most of the time.



Video will be up soon, it's like 5 minutes long or so, so I gotta convert it to make it a smaller file, hopefully I can find a way to upload it somewhere.


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## Vintage

I wonder how David Stern will **** this up.


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## J19

Artest is from NYC, dont mess with the best


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## Zach

Just sad.

The fans in Detroit are too out of control. Ben Wallace overreacted and everyone knows it. Artest did not do anything wrong and I applaud his team and Sheed for trying to help. It woulda been nicer if the Pistons had done something. 




> Artest: 20 games...yes I'd do the same thing, but the NBA has no choice.


You have to be ****ing kidding. He didn't do anything. Wallace: 5 games minimum. Maybe even 10 for starting the entire thing for going overboard on a foul that was not as bad as he made it out to be.


Detroit fans=Worst display of class ever.


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## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> Why should any of the players get suspended? All they were doing was protecting themselves.


Wallace should get suspended. He went ape**** over NOTHING and Artest kept his cool until that idiot fan hit him with the beer bottle.


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## qwerty

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> Why should any of the players get suspended? All they were doing was protecting themselves.
> 
> If it was me, I would have grabbed a monitor and thrown it into the stands.


You do not attack fans period no matter what they do to you. I do not really agree with that but that's how it is and always will be.


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## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> Why should any of the players get suspended? All they were doing was protecting themselves.
> 
> If it was me, I would have grabbed a monitor and thrown it into the stands.


For the stuff before it. Ben should be out at least 5 or 10 games. He's my second favorite player, but he punched Artest in the fact for a regular foul.


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## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> **** the Detroit fans in attendance tonight. This is _historical_ in the level of classlessness.
> 
> Bunch of ****ing disgraces. Many of them deserve to be arrested.
> 
> Ben Wallace deserves the longest suspension of any of the players playing tonight.


No, he deserves the least. The length of his fault is in trying to fight Artest. That deserves a punishment. Artest and Jackson deserve the larger suspensions, as they are the primary players responsible for the situation turning into a major security concern.


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## Coatesvillain

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> Ben Wallace deserves the longest suspension of any of the players playing tonight.


Wallace had no reason to come back at Artest like that overreacting. I know Artest is going to get a good amount of blame, but I don't blame him for going off like that, fans should know their place and watch the game. If you're upset leave the stadium, you'll be calmed down by the time you get to the car, don't throw stuff on the players.


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## Tooeasy

artest has always been cool as hell in my book, this just re-iterates the fact. he tried calming the situation down by laying onthe scorers table, and when that fan smacked him in the face with that bottle/cup, he reacted just as I, and a good number of people of other people would do. this was an altercation between the players, and it was for the most part diffused, those stupid ****in fans caused that entire thing. the worst part is, those chicken ****s did nothin but hit and run, with the exception of that huge black dude with the grey shirt on that rocked fred jones :laugh:


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## Idunkonyou

> Originally posted by <b>Arclite</b>!
> 
> 
> Wallace should get suspended. He went ape**** over NOTHING and Artest kept his cool until that idiot fan hit him with the beer bottle.


You right about Wallace. I just saw that.


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## socco

> Originally posted by <b>~~~</b>!
> 
> 
> You do not attack fans period no matter what they do to you. I do not really agree with that but that's how it is and always will be.


Even when they physically attack you first? So the players are just punching bags for the fans? Come on now.


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## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> Video will be up soon, it's like 5 minutes long or so, so I gotta convert it to make it a smaller file, hopefully I can find a way to upload it somewhere.


Upload it to http://www.yousendit.com


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## minero

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> **** the Detroit fans in attendance tonight. This is _historical_ in the level of classlessness.
> 
> Bunch of ****ing disgraces. Many of them deserve to be arrested.
> 
> Ben Wallace deserves the longest suspension of any of the players playing tonight.


i couldnt agree more


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## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> No, he deserves the least. The length of his fault is in trying to fight Artest. That deserves a punishment. Artest and Jackson deserve the larger suspensions, as they are the primary players responsible for the situation turning into a major security concern.


No way. If I was the commish I'd say if you don't want your fans to get hit by players 100 pounds heavier and six inches taller, then don't let them get so out of control. Pistons fans are COMPLETELY AT FAULT FOR THIS ENTIRE DEBACLE.


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## Tom

i've never seen a game called before


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## Jonathan Watters

the fan should be arrested, but if Ron Artest was really concerned about protecting himself, he would have walked to center court. There's no excuse for attacking a fan. Artest will be suspended for this, and rightfully so. The guy is nuts.


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## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> No, he deserves the least. The length of his fault is in trying to fight Artest. That deserves a punishment. Artest and Jackson deserve the larger suspensions, as they are the primary players responsible for the situation turning into a major security concern.


He started it. Artest did nothing wrong, literally nothing, he went away after getting punched in the face, until he was attacked by a fan. He should get the least, and Ben should get the most.


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## Tersk

Does anyone else think Artest will get a longer suspension because of his history? I know it doesnt sound right but still


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## Zach

Ron Artest backed off of Ben and Ben came at him and started some bull****. That riled up the fans and they went overboard. Artest had every right to do what he did. When JO was walking throught the tunnel and what looked like gallons of beer were pouring down on him, I lost it even more. Then the Detroit fans got into it with it appeared some Indy fans in the corner.


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## qwerty

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> 
> Even when they physically attack you first? So the players are just punching bags for the fans? Come on now.


I agree with you, do not get me wrong. But we all know how it is gonna go down. Artest will look like the bad guy even though this was not him for once.


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## Jewelz

You people who say "He shouldent have attacked any fans" are morons. I would have loved to go into the stands and tear the ****er up


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## The_Franchise

I missed it.


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## Zach

> Originally posted by <b>RiDirkulous</b>!
> Does anyone else think Artest will get a longer suspension because of his history? I know it doesnt sound right but still



Sadly yes.


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## Gonzo

DETROIT SUCKS!!!!!


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## Idunkonyou

Artest shouldn't be suspended. Most of the Pacers and Piston players that went into the stands were trying to get Artest out of there. 

Wallace IMO should be the only played suspended for blowing up. 

Like I said, if I was Artest, I would have done the same thing and so would 95% of the population.


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## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> No, he deserves the least. The length of his fault is in trying to fight Artest. That deserves a punishment. Artest and Jackson deserve the larger suspensions, as they are the primary players responsible for the situation turning into a major security concern.


I disagree. Wallace instigated the entire thing, and everything snowballed as a direct result of Ben piefacing Artest because he was mad about getting beat at home.

The fan didn't throw the bottle for the hell of it.


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## Pan Mengtu

You have to understand mob mentality. When there are that many people, individuals think they are anonymous, and therefore there are no repercussions their actions. This is wrong of course, but this is why those types of situations can break out. It's why riots happen.

The security did a poor job of securing the area after the initial fight broke out. There was literally nothing stopping the teams from fighting except their own coaches. Why there are not a substantial police presence at games, expecially post 9/11, is beyond me. That fan never should have been capable of walking right on to Artest and doing that.


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## socco

oops, double post


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## socco

Artest should be commended for what he did tonight. After what Wallace did, how many people expected Ron to simply walk away? How many expected him to rip Ben's head off? Yet he walked away. The fan shoudl go to jail, a bunch of them should, and likely will. Ron should get a suspension, but not that long. The Pistons should not be able to play any home games for at least a year, and I am 100% serious on that. They don't deserve to have basketball there. If it weren't so much trouble financially, I'd say move the team, the Pistons fans are about as bad as you can get.



The video is like 80MB, so I'm converting it right now, to get it under 10MB. Then I'll upload it, sorry for taking so long guys. And as I said, I missed the first part, but I got ALL of the stuff with the fans, and of course some replays of what started it. I probably missed the first 15 seconds or so.


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## Pacers Fan

My Predictions:

Artest: 25 games

Jax: 10 games

Wallace: 10 games

Freddie: 1 game

I can't tell much from there.


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## SignGuyDino

espn news


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## jvanbusk

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> I was about to post how that altercation was 99% Wallace's fault, then Artest went crazy. Jim Grey explains the fan dumped a beer and crap on him from like 2 feet away. Oh my ****ing god, I've never seen anything like this. The game was called, WTF is going on?


The fan that Artest went after was atleast 40 feet away after watching the replay. Thanks Jim Gray.


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## The_Franchise

ESPNews is showing it repeatedly for those of you who missed it.

Larry Brown on now.


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## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Arclite</b>!
> 
> 
> No way. If I was the commish I'd say if you don't want your fans to get hit by players 100 pounds heavier and six inches taller, then don't let them get so out of control. Pistons fans are COMPLETELY AT FAULT FOR THIS ENTIRE DEBACLE.


Who's at fault is not really relevant when handing out suspensions, fines. People are responsible for their individual actions.


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## socco

Some fat *** tried punching Fred Jones from behind, it's in the video when I get it up, I thought that was pretty funny. Jones didn't really do anything back to him though.

As I've said, Ben Wallace definately deserves the biggest suspension, then Jackson, and then Artest who should get no more than 5.


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## froggyvk

New definition of irony:

Next Pistons/Pacers game-Christmas Day.

I am a Pistons fan. HOWEVER - I was not drinking beer. I wasn't the one doing the punching. _I'm_ not classless. At least, I don't think I am.

I'm ashamed.

The Pistons had "the greatest fans in all of basketball" (as quoted by many TV broadcasts, newspapers, magazines, etc.), and they completely **** up. Totally classless. What the hell were they thinking?

The thing that started this whole thing was a complete overreaction by Ben Wallace. It wasn't even a very hard foul, you idiot.

I'm boycotting the Pistons until further notice.


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## Tooeasy

was that tinsley sockin the brick wall in the tunnel right when he got there by the locker rooms? **** was loud as all get out, hopefully he wasnt stupid and broke some knuckles. what amazes me is how much stuff got thrown at all those pacers when they were trying to escape to the locker room, so ****ing shameful of those fans.


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## JNice

damn, I missed it ... gotta see some video!!!

everyone should cool down insulting the entire Piston fan base though ... can't classify all of them because of some drunk *******s...

Good news for Orlando playing Indiana tomorrow night!!


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## walkon4

I am in total shock..

This will change the sports world forever


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## DirtyDirk41

That was crazy and funny as hell, Ron and Ben should both get at least a 20 game suspension, Stephen Jackson at least 10. Detroit fans = scum.


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## qwerty

> Originally posted by <b>DirtyDirk41</b>!
> That was crazy and funny as hell, Ron and Ben should both get at least a 20 game suspension, Stephen Jackson at least 10. Detroit fans = scum.


I still do not understand why people think he should get that long of a suspension.


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## JNice

Is Indiana even gonna be able to field a team?


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## Hibachi!

> Originally posted by <b>DirtyDirk41</b>!
> That was crazy and funny as hell, Ron and Ben should both get at least a 20 game suspension, Stephen Jackson at least 10. Detroit fans = scum.


I don't quite understand why Ben should get a bigger suspension than a normal fight... Had this not turned into what it did Ben would have gotten a couple games, but since Artest decided to go into the stands BEN WALLACE gets punished?


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## GNG

Users Browsing Forum: (HEATLUNATIC, european, jvanbusk, John, The OUTLAW, Ghost, KennethTo, kflo, Vintage, q, krob, JNice, deranged40, blabla97, -inVINCEible-, DetBNyce, Max Payne, froggyvk, What Gives?, rocketeer, Amareca, Arclite, Scott, JuniorNoboa, Idunkonyou, Peskoe97, MiamiHeat03, Ming Bling, SignGuyDino, Zach, ljt, JustinSane, Seiklis, ToddMacCulloch11, Epadfield, Numbed One, Don Corleone, visionary432, Captain Obvious, hobojoe, minero, BabyBlueSlugga7, wadeshaqeddie, PetroToZoran, raptorsrule15, RP McMurphy, Knicks Junkie, Nate505, Mike luvs KG, TOballer, Fangio, Tooeasy, SamTheMan67, Primetime23, DrewDaGreat, Drewbs, KHinrich12, roastedtoaster, Vermillion, paul, lakegz, .fusion., RiDirkulous, Baron Davis, takeanumber3333, Pan Mengtu, ~~~, Bird Fan33, KidCanada101, sKiP~2~mY~BLUTH, vi3t_boi11, BlazersBlazersBlazers, Sad Mafioso, LBJthefuturegoat, J19, rawse)


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## LBJthefuturegoat

That was crazy.


Will the cavs win the central?


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## Pacers Fan

> Originally posted by <b>froggyvk</b>!
> New definition of irony:
> 
> Next Pistons/Pacers game-Christmas Day.
> 
> I am a Pistons fan. HOWEVER - I was not drinking beer. I wasn't the one doing the punching. _I'm_ not classless. At least, I don't think I am.
> 
> I'm ashamed.
> 
> The Pistons had "the greatest fans in all of basketball" (as quoted by many TV broadcasts, newspapers, magazines, etc.), and they completely **** up. Totally classless. What the hell were they thinking?
> 
> The thing that started this whole thing was a complete overreaction by Ben Wallace. It wasn't even a very hard foul, you idiot.
> 
> I'm boycotting the Pistons until further notice.


:worship:


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## The_Franchise

Ron Artest isn't at fault, but the NBA would be made a mockery of if they don't suspend him for 5+ games.


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## socco

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> damn, I missed it ... gotta see some video!!!
> 
> everyone should cool down insulting the entire Piston fan base though ... can't classify all of them because of some drunk *******s...
> 
> Good news for Orlando playing Indiana tomorrow night!!


I got some video coming, sorry again everybody that I'm so slow, but I gotta convert it from .mpeg to .avi, makes the file MUCH smaller.

And no, people shouldn't lay off Pistons fans. I know it was only a few drunk fans, well, a few hundred, probably closer to a thousand, but still a small part of all Pistons fans. But ya know what, too bad. This is by far the worst day in Pistons franchise history, this will follow them around forever. It's very sad for all the other Pistons fans who are just as upset about this, but that just sucks for them, too bad.


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## Idunkonyou

A 20 game suspension for defending yourself? I don't think so.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> 
> I got some video coming, sorry again everybody that I'm so slow, but I gotta convert it from .mpeg to .avi, makes the file MUCH smaller.
> 
> And no, people shouldn't lay off Pistons fans. I know it was only a few drunk fans, well, a few hundred, probably closer to a thousand, but still a small part of all Pistons fans. But ya know what, too bad. This is by far the worst day in Pistons franchise history, this will follow them around forever. It's very sad for all the other Pistons fans who are just as upset about this, but that just sucks for them, too bad.



Was it really that many? Damn, I gotta see this


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## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> 
> 
> I disagree. Wallace instigated the entire thing, and everything snowballed as a direct result of Ben piefacing Artest because he was mad about getting beat at home.
> 
> The fan didn't throw the bottle for the hell of it.


Wallace instigated the fight between the two teams, and he should be suspended for that. However, that's not the first, or worst, team fight in sports history. The fans didn't almost start a riot over that.

They almost started a riot because one of the fans instigated Artest, who then overreacted himself, as did Jackson. The security did a poor job of securing the fight area to even allow that to happen. It became a real security concern when the fans starting fighting the Pacers. And for the overreacting that led to the second wave of the fight, Artest and Jackson should be punished even stronger.


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## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> A 20 game suspension for defending yourself? I don't think so.


That after doing nothing when you get punched in the face for just a regular foul.


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## JerryWest

that's bull

You can't have fans throwing crap on players and expecting to get away with it

NBA should send a message and say no penalty for artest.

If you throw stuff at players you deserve whatever comes your way.


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## Pacers Fan

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> Is Indiana even gonna be able to field a team?


I'm guessing we'll have 6 active players, 2 below the minimum, I think.


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## Idunkonyou

I'm glad I'm a Magic fan if you know what I mean.


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## DirtyDirk41

Ron Artest has lost any trace of sanity he had left, that man just snapped, hes a lunatic.


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## Captain Obvious

Some thoughts on this:

1.) Ron Artest has VERY little blame in this whole situation IMO. Like you guys have said he was just defending himself, and it wasn't a hard foul.

2.) Ben Wallace deserves the longest suspension for this fiasco but of course Artest will get that honor. Jackson's looking at a suspension too as well as some others once the video is closely examined.

3.) Most importantly, you guys are dumbasses if you think this fight was "cool" or "awesome". Those fans were freaking insane. The Indiana players and staff were in SERIOUS danger. When a mob gets going it's hard to stop. Not only that, this whole incident is going to be a HUGE black eye to the entire NBA in the realm of public opinion. You and I probably know that the Detroit fans shoulder most of the blame in this situation but in the end it's the NBA and its players that are going to be hurt by this.


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## SamTheMan67

about the 1st 4 rows were beating the **** outta each other


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## Tooeasy

stephan jackson had the best punch of that thing by far, take a look at who he punched right after artest ran up into the stands. the guy seriously just flopped, i wouldnt be surprised if he has to take a trip to the hospital tonight.


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> 
> I got some video coming, sorry again everybody that I'm so slow, but I gotta convert it from .mpeg to .avi, makes the file MUCH smaller.


If you're the first one to get a video up, then you are my hero and don't have to apologize for anything.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Was it really that many? Damn, I gotta see this


Well, not thousands. But it was ALOT. Probly 5 or 10 more minutes for the video, the conversion is super slow.


----------



## SignGuyDino

Well, it's the hot topic now...


Stern should should some big ones and only give 3 game suspension to Artest.


----------



## Debt Collector

im pretty sure every player who went into the stands will be suspended, all of them, they may stagger the suspensions so you can play basketball but they will all get suspended


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> I'm glad I'm a Magic fan if you know what I mean.


:laugh: 

Thats what I'm screamin'


----------



## sKiP~2~mY~BLUTH

im sayin 100 pages in 1 day...lol :yes:


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>DirtyDirk41</b>!
> Ron Artest has lost any trace of sanity he had left, that man just snapped, hes a lunatic.


I know, that crazy guy. Getting punched in the fact by Ben Wallace and then going and just laying on the scorers table. He snapped huh. :no:


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>DirtyDirk41</b>!
> Ron Artest has lost any trace of sanity he had left, that man just snapped, hes a lunatic.


If what Artest did was insane, then I'm crazy too.


----------



## Debt Collector

> Originally posted by <b>Tooeasy</b>!
> stephan jackson had the best punch of that thing by far, take a look at who he punched right after artest ran up into the stands. the guy seriously just flopped, i wouldnt be surprised if he has to take a trip to the hospital tonight.


yea that was a cold jab right in the mouth


----------



## The_Franchise

> Originally posted by <b>DirtyDirk41</b>!
> Ron Artest has lost any trace of sanity he had left, that man just snapped, hes a lunatic.


He made no attempt to hit Ben Wallace after he was shoved in the throat, and idled on a bench before he was hit with a beer. Verbal insults are one thing, what Artest did is justified in my opinion.


----------



## JNice

Artest will be suspended if he fought someone in the crowd ... there might even be criminal charges.

You can defend yourself, but if some dude throws a drink in my face at a club and I beat his ***, I am still getting arrested.


----------



## jvanbusk

You guys need to seek help praising Ron Artest for attacking a fan.

Yes, classless move by the fans throwing stuff. But you don't attack a fan. 

Some of you are a joke lumpind the entire Pistons fanbase into what a few drunk *******s did at the game.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> Some thoughts on this:
> 
> 1.) Ron Artest has VERY little blame in this whole situation IMO. Like you guys have said he was just defending himself, and it wasn't a hard foul.


That's as absurd as saying Wallace was defending himself. In order to defend yourself you must first be in some sort of danger. Having beer poured on you, while uncomfortable, does not pose any threat to your life. He was not defending himself. He got mad because someone poured beer on him, so he decided to overreact, in the same way Wallace did.


----------



## qwerty

> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> 
> 
> im pretty sure every player who went into the stands will be suspended, all of them, they may stagger the suspensions so you can play basketball but they will all get suspended


Nearly the whole pacers team went in the stands to get artest then jackson out once he snapped. I don't see more than three to four of the pacers getting suspended.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> 
> 
> If you're the first one to get a video up, then you are my hero and don't have to apologize for anything.


The conversion process is at 90% right now. Once it gets to 100%, I'll put it up, probly make a good 10-20 links, as alot of people will probably want it. I wish it wasn't taking so long though.


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

Stephen Jackson is a *MARK*!!!


----------



## Vintage

i've gotta see this.


----------



## Captain Obvious

Slightly OT: Sorry Magic fans our game is tomorrow so the full Indiana team will be there since suspensions won't be handed out that quickly.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> You guys need to seek help praising Ron Artest for attacking a fan.
> 
> Yes, classless move by the fans throwing stuff. But you don't attack a fan.
> 
> Some of you are a joke lumpind the entire Pistons fanbase into what a few drunk *******s did at the game.


He got attacked by a fan, do you not realize that? When somebody gets attacked, they usually attack back. And about the Pistins fanbase, too damn bad, this will follow you guys forever, you're screwed, that's just how it is.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> 
> I know, that crazy guy. Getting punched in the fact by Ben Wallace and then going and just laying on the scorers table. He snapped huh. :no:


For the safe of accuracy, he was pushed in the neck area. No punches ever landed between the two players.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> Slightly OT: Sorry Magic fans our game is tomorrow so the full Indiana team will be there since suspensions won't be handed out that quickly.


I'll bet they will.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> For the safe of accuracy, he was pushed in the neck area. No punches ever landed between the two players.


It will be classified as a punch.


----------



## Debt Collector

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> That's as absurd as saying Wallace was defending himself. In order to defend yourself you must first be in some sort of danger. Having beer poured on you, while uncomfortable, does not pose any threat to your life. He was not defending himself. He got mad because someone poured beer on him, so he decided to overreact, in the same way Wallace did.


oh come on, he already had all his emotions bottled up after the foul, guy throws a beer at you, you turn around and the freakin guy is smiling at you, you just gonna turn the other cheek?


----------



## Tom

Ron artest should be gone for a while...so what a drink was on him and how did he know who threw it....He ran for some wimpy little guy after fearfully walking away from Ben. 

Ben was almost as bad.

Jackson is a punk ***


----------



## DirtyDirk41

I dont care, you dont attack a fan, he attacked the fan, he wasnt defending himself, no one attacked him they threw something at him. He could have just run off the court and gotton away from the fans instead of mauling them.


----------



## The_Franchise

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Some of you are a joke lumpind the entire Pistons fanbase into what a few drunk *******s did at the game.


Pretty much the entire lower bowl didn't mind chucking something or the other at Artest when he was leaving the court.

Mob mentality.


----------



## GNG

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> You guys need to seek help praising Ron Artest for attacking a fan.
> 
> Yes, classless move by the fans throwing stuff. But you don't attack a fan.
> 
> Some of you are a joke lumpind the entire Pistons fanbase into what a few drunk *******s did at the game.


"A few drunk *******s." There were hundreds of fans involved in this, and the only ones that weren't weren't only because they couldn't get to the spot fast enough. There were people throwing things from all angles of the stadium.

You don't throw a beer bottle at the players. I've long advocated that fans that get physically and initially involved with the players deserve everything that you get.

That fan deserved a fat lip and an eye as black as the one that The Palace has now, and I'm happy that Artest gave it to him.

So give me your therapist's name and number, if you must.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> Artest will be suspended if he fought someone in the crowd ... there might even be criminal charges.
> 
> You can defend yourself, but if some dude throws a drink in my face at a club and I beat his ***, I am still getting arrested.


The people claim he was defending himself are being completely inaccurate. He had a beer spilt on him. He was in any physical danger. The guy ran away right after doing it. There's not reason to use words that don't describe what happened. "Defense" is not a word that should be used in this situation.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

Ben Wallace deserves two games - his action stands alone. He can't be responsible for the retarted fans.

Ron Artest was not "attacked" - getting stuff thrown at you is an unfortunate incident, but players just need to take it.. Was he in danger? NO F'in way. If he does not run into the stands (which he had no reason to) this crap does not happen.

Artest deserves 20. Sorry he was not attacked. Once he ran into the stands he had the right to defend himself - but he needs to get suspended for running into the stands in the first place.

Remember when Vernon Maxwell ran into the stands and punched somebosdy in the face. HOw much did he get? 20 games?


----------



## socco

It is uploading as we speak. 10MB, so those of you with dial-up it'll suck. Link shall be coming soon ...


----------



## Tom

yep, that was crazy.


----------



## Captain Obvious

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> That's as absurd as saying Wallace was defending himself. In order to defend yourself you must first be in some sort of danger. Having beer poured on you, while uncomfortable, does not pose any threat to your life. He was not defending himself. He got mad because someone poured beer on him, so he decided to overreact, in the same way Wallace did.


It's not nearly as absurd as Wallace. Think of it this way: What's more likely to make YOU go ape ****? Playing a pickup game and having a hard albeit clean foul committed on you or somebody dumping a drink on you when you're sitting there minding your own business?


----------



## Idunkonyou

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> I'll bet they will.


I bet they will also since Ron Artest was involved.


----------



## Hibachi!

Anyone hear Stephen Jackson as he went into the locker room? "We RIDE TOGETHER!" Like he's some gangster... Watch the video, you'll see the majority of the time Jackson getting held back, but then there is ONE point where attention is drawn away from him, and he was by himself... Nobody holding him back, and he didn't do ****...


----------



## Jonathan Watters

> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> 
> 
> oh come on, he already had all his emotions bottled up after the foul, guy throws a beer at you, you turn around and the freakin guy is smiling at you, you just gonna turn the other cheek?


If the guy was standing right next to him, so be it. But Artest jumped up five rows to attack the guy. A completely different story.


----------



## BlazersBlazersBlazers

This has to be the fastest growing thread ever


----------



## Baron Davis

If Ben Wallace didn't get so worked up after a foul that prevented him from scoring the basket, then the game would have continued as normal, 2 free throws for Ben, probably a miss or two, then Pacers eventually win. Artest just fouled him to prevent the basket, which most players would have done. 

Ben Wallace started this. The foul wasn't even hard. Ben clutches his hands on his chin and shoves Artest, and Ben still wants more from him? Then that retarded fan throws beer and Artest. It's not Artest's fault that he went into the stands and ****ed him up. Tell me, would you just lie there like a little *****? 

Stephen Jackson decked that guy pretty damn hard. Nice.

Jermaine O'Neal was getting beer poured on him and popcorn thrown at him. Lame fans. ****ing ******s. 

IMO, Ben Wallace should be the one who gets the biggest suspension, but like others have said, because of Artest's previous history, he might get more than everyone. Hope not though.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> 
> 
> oh come on, he already had all his emotions bottled up after the foul, guy throws a beer at you, you turn around and the freakin guy is smiling at you, you just gonna turn the other cheek?


That had nothing to do with what I said. I was commenting on the *fact* that Artest was not "defending himself." Defending himself from what? Cold liquid? That's an inaccurate exaggeration used by some fans.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> The people claim he was defending himself are being completely inaccurate. He had a beer spilt on him. He was in any physical danger. The guy ran away right after doing it. There's not reason to use words that don't describe what happened. "Defense" is not a word that should be used in this situation.


EXACTLY - HE WAS NOT IN ANY PHYSICAL DANGER. THERE WAS NOTHING HE NEEDED TO DEFEND HIMSELF FROM. AND RUNNING INTO THE STANDS, IS NOT GOING TO PROTECT YOU.


----------



## BigMike

That was AWESOME!!!

When Artest got pelted with beer, I couldn't stop laughing...and then he charged into the stands.

:laugh: Jermaine O'Neal had that huge jumbo beer poured right in his eyes leaving the court...


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## SamTheMan67

> Originally posted by <b>Tooeasy</b>!
> stephan jackson had the best punch of that thing by far, take a look at who he punched right after artest ran up into the stands. the guy seriously just flopped, i wouldnt be surprised if he has to take a trip to the hospital tonight.


This was horrible he was a geeky white guy and he got killed!!


----------



## socco

The bottle or cup or whatever hit Ron in the face.


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

Time to order an Artest jersey.


----------



## SignGuyDino

Holy crap! Somebody threw a chair!!


----------



## The_Franchise

> Originally posted by <b>BlazersBlazersBlazers</b>!
> This has to be the fastest growing thread ever


Fighting... beer... basketball... not many can resist.


----------



## Captain Obvious

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> I'll bet they will.


That's one big ugly mess. It's going to take a while to sort out all of it. Punishment will be severe and swift, but not that swift.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> 
> 
> EXACTLY - HE WAS NOT IN ANY PHYSICAL DANGER. THERE WAS NOTHING HE NEEDED TO DEFEND HIMSELF FROM. AND RUNNING INTO THE STANDS, IS NOT GOING TO PROTECT YOU.


So the players' heads are basically target practice for dunken fans throwing beer? Makes sense. :no:


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> 
> 
> That's one big ugly mess. It's going to take a while to sort out all of it. Punishment will be severe and swift, but not that swift.


I think they'll know Artest will be suspended. I doubt they let him play tomorrow night.


----------



## LuolDeng

Fans have to ****ing use their heads.
If you throw **** at a player, what the **** do you think is gonna happen you piece of trash?


----------



## Tooeasy

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> 
> 
> You don't throw a beer bottle at the players. I've long advocated that fans that get physically and initially involved with the players deserve everything that you get.
> 
> That fan deserved a fat lip and an eye as black as the one that The Palace has now, and I'm happy that Artest gave it to him.
> 
> So give me your therapist's name and number, if you must.


my sentiments exactly. beer is a god damn priveldge to be drank at professional sporting game, if you can't back your *** up after doing somethin as tasteless as what that fan did, its your own god dman fault. i commend artest for what he did, regardless of the reprecussions that come from it. on a sad note, i wonder how many father/mothers took their child to their first detroit game tonight, only to see a scene of absolute horror.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> Ben Wallace deserves two games - his action stands alone. He can't be responsible for the retarted fans.
> 
> Ron Artest was not "attacked" - getting stuff thrown at you is an unfortunate incident, but players just need to take it.. Was he in danger? NO F'in way. If he does not run into the stands (which he had no reason to) this crap does not happen.
> 
> Artest deserves 20. Sorry he was not attacked. Once he ran into the stands he had the right to defend himself - but he needs to get suspended for running into the stands in the first place.
> 
> Remember when Vernon Maxwell ran into the stands and punched somebosdy in the face. HOw much did he get? 20 games?


Exactly. Wallace started a team fight. That warrants suspension. Artest did the same overreaction that led to a major security risk that could have caused a lot of people to be hurt.


----------



## DirtyDirk41

A fan tryed to jump JO as he left the floor and a security guard hit him and put him down LOL. JO would have wailed on that fan.


----------



## Baron Davis

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> Wallace instigated the fight between the two teams, and he should be suspended for that. However, that's not the first, or worst, team fight in sports history. The fans didn't almost start a riot over that.
> 
> They almost started a riot because one of the fans instigated Artest, who then overreacted himself, as did Jackson. The security did a poor job of securing the fight area to even allow that to happen. It became a real security concern when the fans starting fighting the Pacers. And for the overreacting that led to the second wave of the fight, Artest and Jackson should be punished even stronger.


Man, from what I've seen so far, Jackson has great chemistry with all the Pacer players ever since he came to Indiana. Artest is his boy, and he got mad pissed when someone threw that ****, so he went out into the stands to back Artest up. How is that overreacting? Would you want your friend to just stand there and watch?


----------



## Lakerman33

I HATE DETRIOT FANS. WHY DID JERMAIN GET HIT WITH HAT DRINK. I HOPE STEPHEN JACKSON KILLED THAT GUY. SUCH BS WOW! CRAZY


----------



## JerryWest

detroit fans should not be allowed to have beer at the palace anymore


----------



## LuolDeng

> Originally posted by <b>DirtyDirk41</b>!
> A fan tryed to jump JO as he left the floor and a security guard hit him and put him down LOL. JO would have wailed on that fan.


Wow, that would have been damn funny to see JO just go ap**** on that guy.


----------



## ChiBron

The only time i've seen this kind of traffic on BB.NET is when Fisher hit that controversial shot last season 

Anyway, this is the craziest sports related sh*t i've ever seen. Just unbelievable.


----------



## Idunkonyou

The nerd that Artest went after must have pissed himself, LOL!!!!! :laugh:


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>S-Star</b>!
> Anyone hear Stephen Jackson as he went into the locker room? "We RIDE TOGETHER!" Like he's some gangster... Watch the video, you'll see the majority of the time Jackson getting held back, but then there is ONE point where attention is drawn away from him, and he was by himself... Nobody holding him back, and he didn't do ****...


I agree. Jackson very much looked like a guy who was looking for a fight. He was looking for anyone to fight once the initial push happened.


----------



## raptorsrule15

OMG I can't believe this.....all that beer gone to waste!


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> The nerd that Artest went after must have pissed himself, LOL!!!!! :laugh:



hahah, they showed the clip again, his face is pricless.


----------



## rwj333

video video video video ??????

Please. I am incredibly anxious to see what happenned. :sigh:


----------



## md6655321

Well atleast Detroit-Indiana will be an amazing rivalry now. Bring on the Eastern Conferance Finals!


----------



## sKiP~2~mY~BLUTH

> Originally posted by <b>Lakerman33</b>!
> I HATE DETRIOT FANS. WHY DID JERMAIN GET HIT WITH HAT DRINK. I HOPE STEPHEN JACKSON KILLED THAT GUY. SUCH BS WOW! CRAZY


be sure he's in a hospital right now..
jackson rebuild his face with his punch!

that was so freakin funny...!!! :laugh:


----------



## DirtyDirk41

Artest just went medieval on that fan lol :laugh:


----------



## Captain Obvious

I think when an angry mob starts throwing **** at you it's most certainly a dangerous situation requiring self-defense. Now, running into the stands isn't the best thing to do but it's understandable considering the circumstances. I won't condone all of Artest's actions but at least acknowledge the danger that he and the Pacers were in.


----------



## Hibachi!

Hows that link comin?


----------



## The_Franchise

Rip Hamilton... had to be "restrained" from going at Stephen Jackson. I wish he did.


----------



## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> **** the Detroit fans in attendance tonight. This is _historical_ in the level of classlessness.
> 
> Bunch of ****ing disgraces. Many of them deserve to be arrested.
> 
> Ben Wallace deserves the longest suspension of any of the players playing tonight.


You people ere hilarious.

This is not unprecedented.

As a Blazers fan I recall the exact same thing taking place in Oakland after a Blazers Warriors game a few seasons ago.

Interestingly enough however back then it was the “jailblazers” fault.

_"No matter what fans do a player has no right to enter the stands to go after a player."... yada, yada so on and so on…_

This is what was said as Warrior fans poured beer on Blazers players while they exited the arena.

Funny how perceptions change (don't you think).

-----

By the way... 

Why is Artest taking an uncalled-for two-hand chop to the upper back and neck of Wallace in a decided game shrugged off (by fans and media hacks alike)? That is what clearly provoked the whole thing

Wallace overreacted but it is about time someone put Artest in his place (IMO). He back peddled and clearly wanted no part of Big Ben then went postal when some 5-foot fan hit him with some miller genuine draft.

If Artest was so charged up he should have went after Ben, who was clearly ready to go. 

But no… Why go after Ben… The bald guy with the Miller is a far better target (note the Sarcasm).

In studio commentators cant tell me who the punk is (it is apparent).

------

Steven Jackson is going to be hammered by the NBA.

For the money I would guess that Ben gets 1-2 games, Artest 5-7, and Jackson can begin making reservations for Maui.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>KennethTo</b>!
> detroit fans should not be allowed to have beer at the palace anymore


No, they should not be allowed to have basketball at the palace anymore.


----------



## JustinSane

I'm in the minority here, but I think a bunch of people should be arested. At a minimum at least a dozen fans, Artest, Jackson and Wallace. There is clear, irrefutable evidence of assault against each of them. The league will doubtless come down harder on Jackson and Artest and rightfully so. What Ben did was very wrong, but wouldn't cause real injury to anyone. Legally, what Artest did is not even close to self defense. It's assault. Same for Jackson. 20 game minimum suspension for each. It was a terrible incident that's a black eye for both teams, the city of Detroit and all Pistons fans.


----------



## socco

I got an 80MB file, you want me to upload that? The smaller one turned out to be just an all black picture, I don't know why.


----------



## Arclite

As far as I'm concerned, rawse has owned this thread. Everything he's said has been on the money. Any Piston fan trying to defend the fanbase at the game needs a reality check. You can say not to blame the people in the nosebleeds, but there were hundreds of people involved in this and there is no excuse for all of those people. Period. And when you're talking about THAT MANY PEOPLE, it's just disgusting. I don't care about mob mentality, as far as I'm concerned those people are trash.

Lost in all this is the fact that there were some amazing other basketball games tonight. :laugh:


----------



## JuniorNoboa

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> 
> So the players' heads are basically target practice for dunken fans throwing beer? Makes sense. :no:


I am sure there was a lineup of fans just waiting in a line to throw stuff  

But your right - if I am defending myself from people I will charge into the whole mob. It is a really intelligent way of defending yourself.


----------



## HeinzGuderian

Vid NOW


----------



## Jonathan Watters

Interesting...Wallace shoves Artest in the neck, no reaction. He gets some beer on his jersey, and he goes postal. A no-brainer...


----------



## Hibachi!

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> I think when an angry mob starts throwing **** at you it's most certainly a dangerous situation requiring self-defense. Now, running into the stands isn't the best thing to do but it's understandable considering the circumstances. I won't condone all of Artest's actions but at least acknowledge the danger that he and the Pacers were in.


Yes, because surely he is in less danger when he is attacking a fan with thousands of angry fans ready to jump on him... That definitely was the better choice of judgement and clearly self defense was nessecary... I mean you get hit in the face with a beer, you are in danger, so going into the stands and attacking a fan puts you in LESS danger?


----------



## rwj333

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> I got an 80MB file, you want me to upload that? The smaller one turned out to be just an all black picture, I don't know why.


Damn. 

I don't know, do something!


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> I think when an angry mob starts throwing **** at you it's most certainly a dangerous situation requiring self-defense. Now, running into the stands isn't the best thing to do but it's understandable considering the circumstances. I won't condone all of Artest's actions but at least acknowledge the danger that he and the Pacers were in.


The Pacers were in no security risk until the fight in the stands broke out. Once Artest ran into the fans, Jackson immediately followed because he had been looking for a fight the whole time, and then once the fight broke out with the fans, the mob mentality kicked in and people started thinking "i'm just an anonymous fan, I won't get in trouble" and that's when serious security problems broke out.

This is mostly the fault of the security that did a very poor job with containing the team fight, and with preventing stupid fans from doing this sort of thing.


----------



## Hibachi!

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> I got an 80MB file, you want me to upload that? The smaller one turned out to be just an all black picture, I don't know why.


Yes, upload that... please


----------



## JNice

40 users away from a new BBB net record. :laugh:


----------



## Jewelz

UPLOAD UPLOAD UPLOAD


----------



## Vintage

Upload the 80 megger....

I got a high speed to download that ****.


----------



## Coatesvillain

Looks like Artest is going to get the time off he was looking for.


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> Interesting...Wallace shoves Artest in the neck, no reaction. He gets some beer on his jersey, and he goes postal. A no-brainer...


Well I think its cause he fouled ben, and ben reacted (overreacted if you ask me). So that is more acceptable, but that guy went up and did that to him out of no where for no reason. I'm not saying that a shove in the neck iis better then getting beer dumped on you, but atleast it maybe had some backing behind it in his head.

I'm sure if Ben just shoved him out of nowhere, he would have gone nuts.


----------



## JerryWest

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> Interesting...Wallace shoves Artest in the neck, no reaction. He gets some beer on his jersey, and he goes postal. A no-brainer...


there was no reaction because artest was probably trying to calm down because he didn't want to be suspended, he was probably very heated and then getting hit just threw him over the edge.

I hope that bald guy gets some major injuries, he deserves it


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>PhillyPhanatic</b>!
> Looks like Artest is going to get the time off he was looking for.


:laugh:


----------



## BigMike

HOLY CRAP!! Jermaine O'Neal is ****ED!!!!!!


Did you see that clip of him going up and clocking that random guy on the court?? Just ****ing LEVELED him like that Nebraska player last year!!


:laugh:


----------



## JuniorNoboa

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> I think when an angry mob starts throwing ****


One little skinny nerdy white geek is a mob?


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

Why are u people acting like Artest killed the guy???

I just saw the entire thing on ESPNews and he didnt even get a punch in!!!He grabbed the fan and then 3 people jumped on him!!!

Jackson is *MARK* for coldcocking that fan!!!


----------



## Jewelz

I respect Artest even more for keeping a cool head after the Wallace fiasco, but then the beer thrown at his face was the final straw and I couldent blame him for snapping


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>PhillyPhanatic</b>!
> Looks like Artest is going to get the time off he was looking for.


:laugh: :laugh:

If we set a new user record on a Friday night.. that would be insane..


----------



## Yao Mania

There are 534 online users browsing:
207 members and 327 visitors


----------



## JNice

I love this game. :laugh:


----------



## Jonathan Watters

Artest absolutely got a punch in. He clocked that bald guy right in the face. But the bald guy got him about three times...


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> 
> 
> I am sure there was a lineup of fans just waiting in a line to throw stuff
> 
> But your right - if I am defending myself from people I will charge into the whole mob. It is a really intelligent way of defending yourself.


They werne't in a line, but yes, there were hunderds of people throwing stuff at them. And when you're Ron Artest, I think you'll like your chances against that mob, he could've killed some people.


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> I love this game. :laugh:


:laugh:


----------



## Don Corleone

What Jackson and O'Neal did was way worse than what Artest did


----------



## spongyfungy

video?


----------



## Midnight_Marauder

Why would anyone want to start a fight with someone like Artest......Did you see the look on his face?


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> Artest absolutely got a punch in. He clocked that bald guy right in the face. But the bald guy got him about three times...


He didnt hit the guy who hit him with the beer though!!!

He grabbed him and then got tackled!!!


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

I thought Artest was a total retard after that whole thign with his CD, but now, he's awesome.


----------



## Jewelz

Holy ****! Anyone watching ESPNNews?? They jsut showed something I didn't see yet, it showed some big fat guy with a Piston jersey sitting on the court and Jermaine O'Neal came flying over and slid and punched the guy in the jaw HARD!


----------



## BigMike

> Did you see the look on his face?


Have you ever seen Ben Wallace?


----------



## allenive21

The NBA has "no comment" at this point, lol.


----------



## Hibachi!

Did anyone see the look on the nerdy guys face as Artest got near him?! Here I took a screenshot...


----------



## BigMike

> Holy ****! Anyone watching ESPNNews?? They jsut showed something I didn't see yet, it showed some big fat guy with a Piston jersey sitting on the court and Jermaine O'Neal came flying over and slid and punched the guy in the jaw HARD!


Ya I mentioned that earlier...JO needs to go to prison, that was just nuts!!


----------



## rwj333

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> video?


You were the one other person I was hoping would have it....     

Oh, and just as another checkpoint:

Users Browsing Forum: (HEATLUNATIC, european, jvanbusk, John, Mongolmike, BigMike, BEEZ, The OUTLAW, Ghost, SPMJ, KennethTo, kflo, Vintage, q, JNice, blabla97, allenive21, Tobias, rawse, Amareca, Arclite, Julo, Tragedy, Scott, JuniorNoboa, D-Wade, Idunkonyou, Peskoe97, alchemist, Ming Bling, TheTruth34, DerangedDisco, mofo202, SignGuyDino, Stevie B, jokeaward, ljt, PennyHardaway, JustinSane, Seiklis, ToddMacCulloch11, Epadfield, ian, Don Corleone, daschysta31, visionary432, Captain Obvious, nicholas, minero, Kid_kanada, D5, BabyBlueSlugga7, wadeshaqeddie, RP McMurphy, Yao Mania, Knicks Junkie, Mike luvs KG, TOballer, spongyfungy, Fangio, Celts11, Tooeasy, SamTheMan67, naptownpimp, Primetime23, Drewbs, KHinrich12, Dark Praetor, Odomiles, LineOFire, paul, gfunk, lakegz, Baron Davis, f22egl, Pan Mengtu, HeinzGuderian, artestinsley, ~~~, byrondarnell66, Ps!ence_Fiction, sKiP~2~mY~BLUTH, Brown Canook, BlazersBlazersBlazers, md6655321, Lakerman33, Sad Mafioso, LBJthefuturegoat, J19, DirtyDirk41, rwj333)


----------



## Ghost

I got a Prediction for all of you, 

Ron Artest Gone Till the All-Star Break at least.
Stephan Jackson - 20 games
Ben Wallace - 10 Games

The NBA will come down harder than anyone thinks, at first i was going to put Artest gone for the year.


----------



## socco

The 80MB is coming.


----------



## Tooeasy

good god, that fan that came at artest in the pistons jersey got his *** rocked. **** is absolutely insane.


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

> Originally posted by <b>Jewelz</b>!
> Holy ****! Anyone watching ESPNNews?? They jsut showed something I didn't see yet, it showed some big fat guy with a Piston jersey sitting on the court and Jermaine O'Neal came flying over and slid and punched the guy in the jaw HARD!


Someone also threw a steel chair like in WWE!!!


----------



## lakegz

THis is absolutely deplorable. Artest shouldnt have gone so far into theh stands but his actions werent as violent as Oneals and Jacksons. Connecting on punches on fans is just a disgrace. why didnt they leave towards the tunnel, did they want to fight?


----------



## Jewelz

> Originally posted by <b>S-Star</b>!
> Did anyone see the look on the nerdy guys face as Artest got near him?! Here I took a screenshot...


That's exactly what he looked like :yes:


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> 
> They werne't in a line, but yes, there were hunderds of people throwing stuff at them. And when you're Ron Artest, I think you'll like your chances against that mob, he could've killed some people.


This is the point you're missing. The fans didn't just out of no where decide they were going to start throwing everything they owned out of the Pacers.

That happened after the fight broke out between The Pacers who ran into the stand (mostly Artest and Jackson).

Once something like that happens, a "us vs. them" mentality comes forward, and then the dreadful mob mentality where people think of themselves as invisible members of a mob that can't possibly get in trouble since everyone else is doing it to. That's the point that serious security risks became an issue for the Pacers.


----------



## Mongolmike

I got no comment about the fan behavior, similiar happened a few years ago with the Browns and Jacksonville (- the players rushing the fans).... but about Artest, I predict Stern will suspend him immediately, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was for THE ENTIRE SEASON! 

Yeah, you may think I'm crazy, but I'm just predicting how STERN will react to this... and he is gonna come down HARD on Artest with a heavy hammer. It's not gonna matter to Stern that Artest didn't start it, it matters that Artest went into the stands AND later, when he got out of the stands, he duked it out again with another moron on the floor. My prediction (not my desire or hope), but my prediction is that Stern is gonna lay a HUGE suspension on Artest, and a big suspention on both Jackson and Wallace. And yes, fair or not, past behavior WILL be taken into account. This is Stern's NBA, not a court of law... Stern values the fan base (rightly or wrongly in this case) more than he values Artest's participation in the league. Now that's not to say that arrests and beverage rule changes won't happen in Motor City... that isn't for Stern to rule on.


----------



## Debt Collector

did anyone catch that fat guy who waltzed on the court that artest nailed in the forehead

that was nuts



NBA basketball, its Fantastic!


----------



## JNice

I think people are missing the fact that some of the players could be getting arrested. They aren't outside the laws of the land just because they are ball players.


----------



## Jewelz

> Originally posted by <b>HEATLUNATIC</b>!
> 
> 
> Someone also threw a steel chair like in WWE!!!


lol that was f'n nutz!


----------



## 2pac_Westside

not the best video you'll see..but heres a little something something

http://media.holla-front.com/nbafight.wmv

*anticipates 80 megger*


----------



## Drewbs

That fan was just stupid, he threw a beer at Ron Artest, who had just got shoved and already has a hot temper as it is. It isn't Yao Ming or someone. The second the guy threw the beer, everyone should have known Artest would've snapped. Provoking him was a huge mistake, what Artest did isn't right, but the fan got exactly what he deserved. Throwing hte beer was entirely uncalled for, Artest did nothing prior to that other than foul Wallace (not even that hard of a foul).


----------



## Debt Collector

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> I think people are missing the fact that some of the players could be getting arrested. They aren't outside the laws of the land just because they are ball players.


well, someone has to press charges first


----------



## Arclite

That Jermaine hit was BRUTAL. That is first degree assault, holy ****!!

How does RP not have a post in this thread?


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> I think people are missing the fact that some of the players could be getting arrested. They aren't outside the laws of the land just because they are ball players.


Jackson should be the 1st to get cuffed!!!


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

> Originally posted by <b>HEATLUNATIC</b>!
> 
> 
> Someone also threw a steel chair like in WWE!!!


It's turning into a slobberknocker!


----------



## The_Franchise

Banning alcohol in the Palace? Why not ban popcorn and glass bottles as well. Mob mentality had a lot more to do with it than alcohol.

Ben Wallace was frustrated, recent death of a brother and a tough night for the Pistons. 2 game suspension max.


----------



## Don Corleone

> Originally posted by <b>2pac_Westside</b>!
> not the best video you'll see..but heres a little something something
> 
> http://media.holla-front.com/nbafight.wmv
> 
> *anticipates 80 megger*


DOESNT WORK


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> 
> 
> well, someone has to press charges first


With the money these guys make there will at least assuredly be some lawsuits. Justified or not ....


----------



## jvanbusk

No Detroit fan will condone what those fans did.

All Detroit fans are not representative of the fans at the Palace.

The more I see the replays, the more I think Stephen Jackson should be the guy that gets the longest suspension. He looked for a fight on the court during something he wasn't involved in, and he went into the stands and threw the punch at the fan. He is a thug, plain and simple. Ron Artest deserves a very lengthy suspension for going into the crowd initially and charging at the fan. Ben Wallace deserves 5-10 games for starting the fraucus on the court. Rip Hamilton deserves a suspension for his actions. Jermaine O'Neal deserves a lengthy suspension for fighting with a fan. John Saunders deserves to be fired for fueling the idiots on this board and across the country.

The fans in attendance deserve to be jailed.


----------



## socco

Should be like 5 minutes until the 80MB gets up. I got about 5-10 people from school downloading it from me right now, so I'm running a little slow on the speed.

A question for computer geeks, I'm uploading it to my personal web space at college. Other people won't need the password to download it will they? I really hope not.


----------



## sKiP~2~mY~BLUTH

> Originally posted by <b>2pac_Westside</b>!
> not the best video you'll see..but heres a little something something
> 
> http://media.holla-front.com/nbafight.wmv
> 
> *anticipates 80 megger*


not working...


----------



## Debt Collector

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> With the money these guys make there will at least assuredly be some lawsuits. Justified or not ....


yea definitely not only will the NBA have a few lawsuits but the Palace will too


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> I think people are missing the fact that some of the players could be getting arrested. They aren't outside the laws of the land just because they are ball players.


You're right. After seeing it more, it looks like Jackson is the primary person that could possibly get suspended (or at least get a bigger suspension). Once Wallace pushed Artest, Jackson decided he wanted to fight someone, and he was one of the primary people involved in the team fight. Once Artest ran into the stands, Jackson was the first person to follow, throwing punches at anyone around him.

He decided early on that he was going to fight someone. The way he was not defending Artest, but starting fights himself in the stands, certainly leaves open the possibility that he could be arrested.


----------



## SignGuyDino

> Originally posted by <b>ToddMacCulloch11</b>!
> 
> 
> It's turning into a slobberknocker!


STONE COLD!! STONE COLD!! OH MY GOD!! STONE COLD IS HERE, AND BY GOD, HE CAME TO WHUP ANOTHER MAN'S @@@!!


----------



## mysterio

I just got on this board and damn, never seen so many posters on at one time. Don't you just love disasters.


----------



## Yao Mania

Just saw the hilight!

holy crap... Artest just nailed that fat guy who talked trash to him!! Looked like one of those Steven Seagal movies!!

Pity this whole thing happened, but man as a neutral fan that was super cool to watch!


----------



## Jewelz

> Originally posted by <b>sKiP~2~mY~BLUTH</b>!
> 
> 
> not working...


Works perfect for me


----------



## Don Corleone

http://media.santoalt.com/101/fight_mpg.mpg


----------



## JNice

DAMN, THAT JERMAINE ONEAL SHOT WAS NASTY!!!

He could seriously be in some trouble for that shot.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

Has anybody seen the Fox Midwest feed?

Artest just killed some fat white kid on the court after he was walking away from the crowd.


Arest was actually pretty composed after the brawl, just walked away with no emotion, or "the **** what the hell did I do" look and this fat white kid walks up to him. Artest smokes him. In this case, since that little fat ****er stepped up to him, Artest was allowed to defend himslef. What I don't understnad is where was the security after Artest walked away. He basically walked away by himslef as his coaches were trying to control Jackson and such in the stands.

Unbeleiveable.

The Jermaine O'Neal smoked the fat little ****er while he was on the ground.


Awesome. :laugh:


----------



## reHEATed

just skip the rest of the half of this game and get to the halftime show


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Ming Bling</b>!
> Banning alcohol in the Palace? Why not ban popcorn and glass bottles as well. Mob mentality had a lot more to do with it than alcohol.
> 
> Ben Wallace was frustrated, recent death of a brother and a tough night for the Pistons. 2 game suspension max.


He punched a man in the face which led to one of the worst scenes in the history of basketball, yeah 2 games sounds about right. :no:


----------



## Debt Collector

did anyone see JO come in with that sliding right hook

that was tight


----------



## Captain Obvious

> Originally posted by <b>S-Star</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, because surely he is in less danger when he is attacking a fan with thousands of angry fans ready to jump on him... That definitely was the better choice of judgement and clearly self defense was nessecary... I mean you get hit in the face with a beer, you are in danger, so going into the stands and attacking a fan puts you in LESS danger?


I didn't say he would be in less danger, I said it was a natural reaction, which it was.


----------



## Baron Davis

Any fan who got ****ed up deserved to be ****ed up.


----------



## 2pac_Westside

updated link

www.norcalsportsfans.com/uploads/nbafight.wmv


----------



## rwj333

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> Should be like 5 minutes until the 80MB gets up. I got about 5-10 people from school downloading it from me right now, so I'm running a little slow on the speed.
> 
> A question for computer geeks, I'm uploading it to my personal web space at college. Other people won't need the password to download it will they? I really hope not.


No, but I hope you don't have bandwidth limits.... In fact, why don't you pm me the link first.


----------



## JNice

About to break a record ...

anyway ... this was unbelievable. Definitely a scary situation. I feel sorry for people with young kids in attendance.


----------



## Debt Collector

> Originally posted by <b>Baron Davis</b>!
> Any fan who got ****ed up deserved to be ****ed up.


exactly, when you see that some blows are being thrown, get the hell out of the way. stand far back. all the idiot fans tried to get up in it and they got destroyed. pacers = thuggest team in the nba


----------



## Gonzo

Artest is crazy
SJax is crazy
Big Ben is a dumb mother ****er

OT: Post on the Pacers Forum so we can pass the Nets!!!!


----------



## BG7

Whats with all the hate against Oneal hitting the fat guy in the Pistons jersey. A better question, why was the fat guy on the court. Every single fan got what was coming to them. After reviewing the big video I'll give my fight analysis and due of punishments.


----------



## Yao Mania

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> About to break a record ...
> 
> anyway ... this was unbelievable. Definitely a scary situation. I feel sorry for people with young kids in attendance.


yah seriously this isn't good PR for the NBA....


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> 
> 
> exactly, when you see that some blows are being thrown, get the hell out of the way. stand far back. all the idiot fans tried to get up in it and they got destroyed. pacers = thuggest team in the nba


Seriously ... what the hell was that little fat dude thinking stepping up to Ron Artest? What a freaking moron.


----------



## Mongolmike

> Originally posted by <b>Don Corleone</b>!
> 
> 
> DOESNT WORK


Yes it does


----------



## Pan Mengtu

The security was very poor. Why were the teams the only people out there holding themselves back during the team fight? Where were fans allowed to get close enough to throw stuff?

I saw virtually no security out there until after all hell had broken loose.


----------



## socco

Oh damn, it's 300MB not 80MB.  Uh, oops. Well, it's coming up anyways, anybdoy who wants to download a 300MB file can go for it I guess, It's still not even 1/2 the way uploaded yet.

What is good video editing software, I gotta trim this down so I can get it on here in a reasonable size.


----------



## JNice

I'll tell you what, i'm no sissy and not a small dude, but if there is a pissed off Ron Artest in the area, I am out of there. Gone. C-ya!


----------



## spongyfungy

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> Has anybody seen the Fox Midwest feed?
> 
> Artest just killed some fat white kid on the court after he was walking away from the crowd.
> 
> 
> Arest was actually pretty composed after the brawl, just walked away with no emotion, or "the **** what the hell did I do" look and this fat white kid walks up to him. Artest smokes him. In this case, since that little fat ****er stepped up to him, Artest was allowed to defend himslef. What I don't understnad is where was the security after Artest walked away. He basically walked away by himslef as his coaches were trying to control Jackson and such in the stands.
> 
> Unbeleiveable.
> 
> The Jermaine O'Neal smoked the fat little ****er while he was on the ground.
> 
> 
> Awesome. :laugh:


I saw that. the kid runs out of the court. what an idiot.


----------



## Vintage

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> Oh damn, it's 300MB not 80MB.  Uh, oops. Well, it's coming up anyways, anybdoy who wants to download a 300MB file can go for it I guess, It's still not even 1/2 the way uploaded yet.
> 
> What is good video editing software, I gotta trim this down so I can get it on here in a reasonable size.


Ha. Are you challenging my ISP?

Bring it. High Speed, *****. High speed.


----------



## Debt Collector

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Seriously ... what the hell was that little fat dude thinking stepping up to Ron Artest? What a freaking moron.


dude, i laughed so hard at that. fool runs on him, all 6'8'' 250 pounds with the rep of being the most psycho individual in sports, smiles and says something. at least get your shot in because at that point you know your getting slugged


----------



## Anima

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> Oh damn, it's 300MB not 80MB.  Uh, oops. Well, it's coming up anyways, anybdoy who wants to download a 300MB file can go for it I guess, It's still not even 1/2 the way uploaded yet.
> 
> What is good video editing software, I gotta trim this down so I can get it on here in a reasonable size.


Windows media encoder is pretty good, easy to use, and free.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/9series/encoder/default.aspx


----------



## Drewbs

Larry Brown looked disgusted. I wonder what he is going to say to Wallace.


----------



## walkon4

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> I'll tell you what, i'm no sissy and not a small dude, but if there is a pissed off Ron Artest in the area, I am out of there. Gone. C-ya!


I'll second that. 
I would have been helping ron and messing up those idiot fans.


----------



## spongyfungy

alright. i have the video.


----------



## Vintage

> Originally posted by <b>TheTruth34</b>!
> 
> 
> I'll second that.
> I would have been helping ron and messing up those idiot fans.



LOL.

No you wouldn't.


----------



## Captain Obvious

I can't believe some of you people are still laughing at this and thinking it's so awesome. Did you guys watch the video? Do you understand the huge impact that this is going to have? Obviously not.


----------



## Hibachi!

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> alright. i have the video.


POST IT!!!!! Please


----------



## MLKG

That was terrible.

Ben Wallace over reacted. I suspect he didn't snap on Artest solely because of the one foul. There was probably a lot of chippy stuff throughout the game that culminated in that. This is not the first time Ben Wallace and Ron Artest have gotten into a scuffle at the end of a game. In the last regular season game between the two last year Ron picked up a flagrant on Ben in the last minute of the game. Ben should have kept his cool in that situation. But Ben Wallace had NOTHING to do with the situation that ensued.

What caused things to spin out of control were the actions of Ron Artest. While things were getting sorted out with the players, Ron was laying on the scorers table hamming it up in what was already an emotional ending to an emotional game. He was inviting the ire of the fans. Before everything got out of control I commented to my roommate that Artest needed to "get his *** off that table before somebody does it for him". My blood was starting to boil from my couch, imagine what a fan who had to much to drink was thinking. Now that does NOT justify throwing anything at a player, but Artest was the player on the floor responsible for escalating the situation. If doesn't ham it up on the scorers table, nothing happens.

After Ron and Stephen Jackson charged the fans things really went out of control. That is totally uncalled for in any situation and was the direct cause of the riot that ensued. 

I find it disgusting that everyone is so quick to blame this on the Pistons fans, the Pacers players threw the first punches. You have a great crowd with a stronger connection to their team and each other than perhaps any franchise in the NBA- and a couple players charge into the stands and start a fight. 

Everybody is so quick to use the defense that Pacers players were just defending their own, but what the hell were Pistons fans doing? The guy sitting two rows down from you, the guy you see every home game and have a couple beers with as a fellow season ticket holder just got DECKED by Stephen Jackson, is it any surprise that the fans didn't stand by idley?

You NEVER EVER EVER take a skirmish into the stands in profesional sports. Why because if you do the fans are going to strike back and thats how riots get started.

Ron Artest is NOT the first player to ever get a bear dumped on him. I've seen it happen DOZENS of times in the NFL and this is not even the first time it's happened in the NBA. He was NOT attacked, he was NOT physically threatened, and he did NOT have to do what he did to protect his own safety. In fact his actions directly lead to the endangerment of thousands of people.

WHAT I WOULD DO IF I HAD THE POWER:

We'll start for the begining.

The Wallace-Artest thing is treated as a seperate incident. Ben Wallace gets 3 games for a blow to the body. There was no punch and no shot to the face. This would be a pretty standard suspension for this situation (I believe the same thing Brendan Haywood and Antonio Davis got). Artest is not faulted for this incident.

For what followed:

The fan who threw the first beer is arrested, as well as everybody who threw a punch. This includes Pistons fans, Ron Artest, and Stephen Jackson.

Ron Artest is suspended until the all-star break. But I have a feeling it will be longer.

Stephen Jackson is suspended for life. Yes life.

Stephen Jackson was the worst out of everybody in the arena. During the initial scuffle Bill Walton was commenting on how somebody needed to get a handle on him because he was completely out of control and looking for a fight. Once Artest went into the stands Jackson was the first to follow him. I don't know if the fan threw something first, but Jackson made a beeline for a guy standing there completely defensless and just CLOCKED him in the face with a full windup. From what I saw, Jackson was not involved in the original scuffle, did not have anything thrown at him, he went into the stands unprovoked and hit a fan in the face with a full wind up. I think his actions even more than Artests were responsible the most for the violence that ensued.

Latrell Sprewell got suspended a year for choking his coach. Artest choked out a fan and Jackson hit one in the face with a full wind up. In my mind attacking a fan is worse than attacking a coach and the punishment will be harsher.

Who do I feel sorry for in this situation? The Pacers players who actually kept their heads on their shoulders and were the victims of violence due to the bone headed actions of their teammates. Some of those guys did not deserve the shower they got as they left the court. Some of them deserved everything they got.

One thing I know for sure. This is the biggest fight in the history of professional sports, this is major national news, and I would not be surprised if major unprecedented punishments resulted from it.


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

> Originally posted by <b>Drewbs</b>!
> Larry Brown looked disgusted. I wonder what he is going to say to Wallace.


I think he was pissed at the fans more than ben.


----------



## BlazersBlazersBlazers

whats the record for most responses in a thread?


----------



## mofo202

> Originally posted by <b>BlazersBlazersBlazers</b>!
> whats the record for most responses in a thread?


We aren't even close.


----------



## BigMike

> whats the record for most responses in a thread?


A HELL of a lot more than this...


----------



## P2TheTruth34

what r u guys talkin bout wit artest wailin fat white guy and oneal wailing guy on court? i havnt seen it yet, is it on espn news?


----------



## Yao Mania

> Originally posted by <b>BlazersBlazersBlazers</b>!
> whats the record for most responses in a thread?


The official GM challenge draft has 2519 posts, good luck topping that!


----------



## rwj333

I'm sure 290 posts in a little more than an hour is a record.

It was a pretty torrid pace for a while.


----------



## BG7

> The party attacked may undoubtedly defend himself, and the law further sanctions the mutual and reciprocal defence of such as stand in the near relations of hushand and wife, patent and child, and master and servant. In these cases, if the party himself or any of these his relations, be forcibly attacked in their person or property, it is lawful for him to repel force by force, for the law in these cases respects the passions of the human mind, and makes it lawful in him, when external violence is offered to himself, or to those to whom he bears so near a connexion, to do that immediate justice to which he is prompted by nature, and which no prudential motives are strong enough to restrain.


What does this mean? Ron Artest was not at a criminal fault. Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O'neal are not either because think of them as a family, and they were defending Artest who was getting surrounded by many fans.


----------



## JNice

With the shots I saw from Artest and Oneal ... I would not be surprised if they were gone for the season ... or most of it. Oneal's was a vicious shot that could have, well, could have killed that dude. 

I haven't seen any of Jackson's shots ... but I think what others are saying is true ... the NBA is going to set a precedent here and really hand down some serious stuff.


----------



## Jewelz

Hopefully I'm the 300th poster


----------



## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>Jewelz</b>!
> I respect Artest even more for keeping a cool head after the Wallace fiasco, but then the beer thrown at his face was the final straw and I couldent blame him for snapping


I don’t.

I would have respected Artest much more if he would have went at Ben. It would have been a fight (but guess what...); fights are a part of the game. 

Going into the stands has no place in the game. 

-------

It is apparent to me that Artest was intimidated by Ben (who appeared as though he was ready to kill Artest) then attempted to play it off by playing it cool lounging on the scorers table.

Fear inverts to rage and once the boiling point was breached Artest chose the path of least resistance (the bald guy with the cup).

What a coward.



:no:


----------



## BigMike

Jermaine is going to DOMINATE the penal league


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> That was terrible.
> 
> Ben Wallace over reacted. I suspect he didn't snap on Artest solely because of the one foul. There was probably a lot of chippy stuff throughout the game that culminated in that. This is not the first time Ben Wallace and Ron Artest have gotten into a scuffle at the end of a game. In the last regular season game between the two last year Ron picked up a flagrant on Ben in the last minute of the game. Ben should have kept his cool in that situation. But Ben Wallace had NOTHING to do with the situation that ensued.
> 
> What caused things to spin out of control were the actions of Ron Artest. While things were getting sorted out with the players, Ron was laying on the scorers table hamming it up in what was already an emotional ending to an emotional game. He was inviting the ire of the fans. Before everything got out of control I commented to my roommate that Artest needed to "get his *** off that table before somebody does it for him". My blood was starting to boil from my couch, imagine what a fan who had to much to drink was thinking. Now that does NOT justify throwing anything at a player, but Artest was the player on the floor responsible for escalating the situation. If doesn't ham it up on the scorers table, nothing happens.
> 
> After Ron and Stephen Jackson charged the fans things really went out of control. That is totally uncalled for in any situation and was the direct cause of the riot that ensued.
> 
> I find it disgusting that everyone is so quick to blame this on the Pistons fans, the Pacers players threw the first punches. You have a great crowd with a stronger connection to their team and each other than perhaps any franchise in the NBA- and a couple players charge into the stands and start a fight.
> 
> Everybody is so quick to use the defense that Pacers players were just defending their own, but what the hell were Pistons fans doing? The guy sitting two rows down from you, the guy you see every home game and have a couple beers with as a fellow season ticket holder just got DECKED by Stephen Jackson, is it any surprise that the fans didn't stand by idley?
> 
> You NEVER EVER EVER take a skirmish into the stands in profesional sports. Why because if you do the fans are going to strike back and thats how riots get started.
> 
> Ron Artest is NOT the first player to ever get a bear dumped on him. I've seen it happen DOZENS of times in the NFL and this is not even the first time it's happened in the NBA. He was NOT attacked, he was NOT physically threatened, and he did NOT have to do what he did to protect his own safety. In fact his actions directly lead to the endangerment of thousands of people.
> 
> WHAT I WOULD DO IF I HAD THE POWER:
> 
> We'll start for the begining.
> 
> The Wallace-Artest thing is treated as a seperate incident. Ben Wallace gets 3 games for a blow to the body. There was no punch and no shot to the face. This would be a pretty standard suspension for this situation (I believe the same thing Brendan Haywood and Antonio Davis got). Artest is not faulted for this incident.
> 
> For what followed:
> 
> The fan who threw the first beer is arrested, as well as everybody who threw a punch. This includes Pistons fans, Ron Artest, and Stephen Jackson.
> 
> Ron Artest is suspended until the all-star break. But I have a feeling it will be longer.
> 
> Stephen Jackson is suspended for life. Yes life.
> 
> Stephen Jackson was the worst out of everybody in the arena. During the initial scuffle Bill Walton was commenting on how somebody needed to get a handle on him because he was completely out of control and looking for a fight. Once Artest went into the stands Jackson was the first to follow him. I don't know if the fan threw something first, but Jackson made a beeline for a guy standing there completely defensless and just CLOCKED him in the face with a full windup. From what I saw, Jackson was not involved in the original scuffle, did not have anything thrown at him, he went into the stands unprovoked and hit a fan in the face with a full wind up. I think his actions even more than Artests were responsible the most for the violence that ensued.
> 
> Latrell Sprewell got suspended a year for choking his coach. Artest choked out a fan and Jackson hit one in the face with a full wind up. In my mind attacking a fan is worse than attacking a coach and the punishment will be harsher.
> 
> Who do I feel sorry for in this situation? The Pacers players who actually kept their heads on their shoulders and were the victims of violence due to the bone headed actions of their teammates. Some of those guys did not deserve the shower they got as they left the court. Some of them deserved everything they got.
> 
> One thing I know for sure. This is the biggest fight in the history of professional sports, this is major national news, and I would not be surprised if major unprecedented punishments resulted from it.


This is pretty much exactly what I've been trying to articulate this entire thread.

There were two fights. The fight between the two teams and the fight in the stands.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> 
> 
> What does this mean? Ron Artest was not at a criminal fault. Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O'neal are not either because think of them as a family, and they were defending Artest who was getting surrounded by many fans.



Bull. Getting a drink thrown on you does not give you the right to slug people in the face. Just doesn't work like that. There very well could be criminal charges involved.


----------



## Debt Collector

this sucks becuase with all the suspensions, the pacers whole season will be ruined


----------



## The_Franchise

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> That was terrible.
> 
> Ben Wallace over reacted. I suspect he didn't snap on Artest solely because of the one foul. There was probably a lot of chippy stuff throughout the game that culminated in that. This is not the first time Ben Wallace and Ron Artest have gotten into a scuffle at the end of a game. In the last regular season game between the two last year Ron picked up a flagrant on Ben in the last minute of the game. Ben should have kept his cool in that situation. But Ben Wallace had NOTHING to do with the situation that ensued.
> 
> What caused things to spin out of control were the actions of Ron Artest. While things were getting sorted out with the players, Ron was laying on the scorers table hamming it up in what was already an emotional ending to an emotional game. He was inviting the ire of the fans. Before everything got out of control I commented to my roommate that Artest needed to "get his *** off that table before somebody does it for him". My blood was starting to boil from my couch, imagine what a fan who had to much to drink was thinking. Now that does NOT justify throwing anything at a player, but Artest was the player on the floor responsible for escalating the situation. If doesn't ham it up on the scorers table, nothing happens.
> 
> After Ron and Stephen Jackson charged the fans things really went out of control. That is totally uncalled for in any situation and was the direct cause of the riot that ensued.
> 
> I find it disgusting that everyone is so quick to blame this on the Pistons fans, the Pacers players threw the first punches. You have a great crowd with a stronger connection to their team and each other than perhaps any franchise in the NBA- and a couple players charge into the stands and start a fight.
> 
> Everybody is so quick to use the defense that Pacers players were just defending their own, but what the hell were Pistons fans doing? The guy sitting two rows down from you, the guy you see every home game and have a couple beers with as a fellow season ticket holder just got DECKED by Stephen Jackson, is it any surprise that the fans didn't stand by idley?
> 
> You NEVER EVER EVER take a skirmish into the stands in profesional sports. Why because if you do the fans are going to strike back and thats how riots get started.
> 
> Ron Artest is NOT the first player to ever get a bear dumped on him. I've seen it happen DOZENS of times in the NFL and this is not even the first time it's happened in the NBA. He was NOT attacked, he was NOT physically threatened, and he did NOT have to do what he did to protect his own safety. In fact his actions directly lead to the endangerment of thousands of people.
> 
> WHAT I WOULD DO IF I HAD THE POWER:
> 
> We'll start for the begining.
> 
> The Wallace-Artest thing is treated as a seperate incident. Ben Wallace gets 3 games for a blow to the body. There was no punch and no shot to the face. This would be a pretty standard suspension for this situation (I believe the same thing Brendan Haywood and Antonio Davis got). Artest is not faulted for this incident.
> 
> For what followed:
> 
> The fan who threw the first beer is arrested, as well as everybody who threw a punch. This includes Pistons fans, Ron Artest, and Stephen Jackson.
> 
> Ron Artest is suspended until the all-star break. But I have a feeling it will be longer.
> 
> Stephen Jackson is suspended for life. Yes life.
> 
> Stephen Jackson was the worst out of everybody in the arena. During the initial scuffle Bill Walton was commenting on how somebody needed to get a handle on him because he was completely out of control and looking for a fight. Once Artest went into the stands Jackson was the first to follow him. I don't know if the fan threw something first, but Jackson made a beeline for a guy standing there completely defensless and just CLOCKED him in the face with a full windup. From what I saw, Jackson was not involved in the original scuffle, did not have anything thrown at him, he went into the stands unprovoked and hit a fan in the face with a full wind up. I think his actions even more than Artests were responsible the most for the violence that ensued.


One of the most biased posts I've ever read.

Is the XMas day game in Indiana? Good luck controlling them.


----------



## mofo202

> Originally posted by <b>Yao Mania</b>!
> 
> 
> The official GM challenge draft has 2519 posts, good luck topping that!


Im sure "Random Comments" or whatever has more. Where the hell did that thread go?


----------



## BlazersBlazersBlazers

> Originally posted by <b>BigMike</b>!
> Jermaine is going to DOMINATE the penal league



HAHAHAHA :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## Amareca

Let's just hope this doesn't result in having plexi walls around the court or anything.


----------



## Hibachi!

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Bull. Getting a drink thrown on you does not give you the right to slug people in the face. Just doesn't work like that. There very well could be criminal charges involved.


:yes:


----------



## socco

I don't know if it will work, and it is over 300MB, but somebody with high speed access give it a try.

ftp://jacob769.email.umn.edu/artest.mpg

I'm working on a shorter version in a different format so it's a reasonable size.


----------



## Jewelz

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> 
> 
> I don’t.
> 
> I would have respected Artest much more if he would have went at Ben. It would have been a fight (but guess what...); fights are a part of the game.
> 
> Going into the stands has no place in the game.
> 
> -------
> 
> It is apparent to me that Artest was intimidated by Ben (who appeared as though he was ready to kill Artest) then attempted to play it off by playing it cool lounging on the scorers table.
> 
> Fear inverts to rage and once the boiling point was breached Artest chose the path of least resistance (the bald guy with the cup).
> 
> What a coward.
> 
> 
> 
> :no:


Artest was playing it cool and didnt want to get into a fight, but he wasnt backing down like a *****, the coaches of the pacers and other players were pushing him back so he couldent start anything with Ben. Watch the clips


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

> Originally posted by <b>BigMike</b>!
> Jermaine is going to DOMINATE the penal league


:laugh:


----------



## P2TheTruth34

WHAT CHANNEL WAS THE ONEAL PUNCH ON?


----------



## Hibachi!

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> I don't know if it will work, and it is over 300MB, but somebody with high speed access give it a try.
> 
> ftp://jacob769.email.umn.edu/artest.mpg
> 
> I'm working on a shorter version in a different format so it's a reasonable size.


Page cant be displayed


----------



## Tooeasy

anyone see that little black kid about 10 years old comforting his little brother who was crying hysterically during that thing? exactly what i said about 4 pages ago, for all the youngins that had to witness this tonight i honestly feel bad for, i'd be crushed to find out 1000-1500 little kids will despise basketball after this.


----------



## Captain Obvious

I haven't caught the JO punch yet, can somebody give me a video link to that or at least tell me when/where it happened?


----------



## spongyfungy

Can anyone wait 8 minutes? the video is about 3 minutes long.


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

> Originally posted by <b>P2TheTruth34</b>!
> WHAT CHANNEL WAS THE ONEAL PUNCH ON?


Just watch ESPN, they'll show it.


----------



## Hibachi!

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> Can anyone wait 8 minutes?


I can


----------



## Yao Mania

> Originally posted by <b>mofo202</b>!
> 
> 
> Im sure "Random Comments" or whatever has more. Where the hell did that thread go?


KC's Official Word Association Game...Give it a Shot!
9005 replies


----------



## Max Payne

I sincerely hope that none of the players get any penalties for this...Wallace perhaps comes close but shoving happens in the game and shouldn't be taken out of context here just because of the events that occurred after Artest and Wallace came together...certainly not Ron Artest...he was defending himself...the league should really come down hard on as many fans as they can identify who were directly identified in the fracas and they should also penalise the Pistons for not providing enough security to control a situation like this, however hard it might have been to predict. Also I'd like to say MOTHERF**K that fan that threw that stuff at Artest...absolutely terrible stuff...I was so proud of Artest and was beaming when Wallace shoved him and he kept his cool...it seemed for a moment that he was really caring about keeping himself in check...but when that barbarian threw the drinks at him, I was like F**K THAT, KILL THAT MOTHERF**KING A**WIPE ! I'm sorry but this sort of thing is so disgraceful it's not even funny...


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> I haven't caught the JO punch yet, can somebody give me a video link to that or at least tell me when/where it happened?


It is halftime on ESPN. Watch.


----------



## sKiP~2~mY~BLUTH

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> I don't know if it will work, and it is over 300MB, but somebody with high speed access give it a try.
> 
> ftp://jacob769.email.umn.edu/artest.mpg
> 
> I'm working on a shorter version in a different format so it's a reasonable size.


its asking for a password..


----------



## JerryWest

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> That was terrible.
> 
> Ben Wallace over reacted. I suspect he didn't snap on Artest solely because of the one foul. There was probably a lot of chippy stuff throughout the game that culminated in that. This is not the first time Ben Wallace and Ron Artest have gotten into a scuffle at the end of a game. In the last regular season game between the two last year Ron picked up a flagrant on Ben in the last minute of the game. Ben should have kept his cool in that situation. But Ben Wallace had NOTHING to do with the situation that ensued.
> 
> What caused things to spin out of control were the actions of Ron Artest. While things were getting sorted out with the players, Ron was laying on the scorers table hamming it up in what was already an emotional ending to an emotional game. He was inviting the ire of the fans. Before everything got out of control I commented to my roommate that Artest needed to "get his *** off that table before somebody does it for him". My blood was starting to boil from my couch, imagine what a fan who had to much to drink was thinking. Now that does NOT justify throwing anything at a player, but Artest was the player on the floor responsible for escalating the situation. If doesn't ham it up on the scorers table, nothing happens.
> 
> After Ron and Stephen Jackson charged the fans things really went out of control. That is totally uncalled for in any situation and was the direct cause of the riot that ensued.
> 
> I find it disgusting that everyone is so quick to blame this on the Pistons fans, the Pacers players threw the first punches. You have a great crowd with a stronger connection to their team and each other than perhaps any franchise in the NBA- and a couple players charge into the stands and start a fight.
> 
> Everybody is so quick to use the defense that Pacers players were just defending their own, but what the hell were Pistons fans doing? The guy sitting two rows down from you, the guy you see every home game and have a couple beers with as a fellow season ticket holder just got DECKED by Stephen Jackson, is it any surprise that the fans didn't stand by idley?
> 
> You NEVER EVER EVER take a skirmish into the stands in profesional sports. Why because if you do the fans are going to strike back and thats how riots get started.
> 
> Ron Artest is NOT the first player to ever get a bear dumped on him. I've seen it happen DOZENS of times in the NFL and this is not even the first time it's happened in the NBA. He was NOT attacked, he was NOT physically threatened, and he did NOT have to do what he did to protect his own safety. In fact his actions directly lead to the endangerment of thousands of people.
> 
> WHAT I WOULD DO IF I HAD THE POWER:
> 
> We'll start for the begining.
> 
> The Wallace-Artest thing is treated as a seperate incident. Ben Wallace gets 3 games for a blow to the body. There was no punch and no shot to the face. This would be a pretty standard suspension for this situation (I believe the same thing Brendan Haywood and Antonio Davis got). Artest is not faulted for this incident.
> 
> For what followed:
> 
> The fan who threw the first beer is arrested, as well as everybody who threw a punch. This includes Pistons fans, Ron Artest, and Stephen Jackson.
> 
> Ron Artest is suspended until the all-star break. But I have a feeling it will be longer.
> 
> Stephen Jackson is suspended for life. Yes life.
> 
> Stephen Jackson was the worst out of everybody in the arena. During the initial scuffle Bill Walton was commenting on how somebody needed to get a handle on him because he was completely out of control and looking for a fight. Once Artest went into the stands Jackson was the first to follow him. I don't know if the fan threw something first, but Jackson made a beeline for a guy standing there completely defensless and just CLOCKED him in the face with a full windup. From what I saw, Jackson was not involved in the original scuffle, did not have anything thrown at him, he went into the stands unprovoked and hit a fan in the face with a full wind up. I think his actions even more than Artests were responsible the most for the violence that ensued.
> 
> Latrell Sprewell got suspended a year for choking his coach. Artest choked out a fan and Jackson hit one in the face with a full wind up. In my mind attacking a fan is worse than attacking a coach and the punishment will be harsher.
> 
> Who do I feel sorry for in this situation? The Pacers players who actually kept their heads on their shoulders and were the victims of violence due to the bone headed actions of their teammates. Some of those guys did not deserve the shower they got as they left the court. Some of them deserved everything they got.
> 
> One thing I know for sure. This is the biggest fight in the history of professional sports, this is major national news, and I would not be surprised if major unprecedented punishments resulted from it.


I can't believe you are trying to justify a guy throwing beer at artest.


----------



## SignGuyDino

I went to a basketball game and a hockey game broke out.


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> With the shots I saw from Artest and Oneal ... I would not be surprised if they were gone for the season ... or most of it. Oneal's was a vicious shot that could have, well, could have killed that dude.
> 
> I haven't seen any of Jackson's shots ... but I think what others are saying is true ... the NBA is going to set a precedent here and really hand down some serious stuff.


I haven't seen the O'Neal shot, but Stephen Jackson and Jermaine O'Neal look a lot alike, I know it was Jackson who followed Artest in the stands and Jackson gave a VICIOUS full wind up close fisted punch to the face to a fan was more or less trying to get away from him.

Also, for legal purposes, there is no way on earth that what Artest or Jackson did could ever be considered self defense.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

So how about those Syracuse Orangemen. Nice 15 point win over Memphis at MSG. 

I'm sure you all really care right now 

:laugh:


----------



## P2TheTruth34

DAMN!!!! THATS GOTTA HURT, WHAT ****IN DIP****S, IM GLAD THEY GOT ****ED UP


----------



## spongyfungy

> Originally posted by <b>ToddMacCulloch11</b>!
> 
> 
> Just watch ESPN, they'll show it.


OMG .that punchwas vicious!


----------



## Baron Davis

Jermaine O'Neal ****ing rocked that guy's jaw.


----------



## SignGuyDino

It's on Bearshare and the other file swappers by now I bet.


----------



## Yao Mania

> Originally posted by <b>SignGuyDino</b>!
> I went to a basketball game and a hockey game broke out.


Maybe they gotta surround the court with fiberglass too from now on


----------



## Ice Nine

The only player who should be suspended as a result of tonight's actions is Ben Wallace, and for 2 games at most. When fans initiate physical contact with the players, any retaliation by the players is self-defense. And damn did Jermaine nail that fat ****.


----------



## Tooeasy

> Originally posted by <b>Ming Bling</b>!
> 
> 
> One of the most biased posts I've ever read.
> 
> Is the XMas day game in Indiana? Good luck controlling them.


co-sign.


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> 
> 
> OMG .that punchwas vicious!


That fat ******* got knocked the **** out.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>sKiP~2~mY~BLUTH</b>!
> 
> 
> its asking for a password..


k, damn. Somebody else says they have it, so maybe they'll put it up here soon. I'm working on a smaller version that I can put up somewhere else. Damn this is taking way too long, sorry guys.


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>KennethTo</b>!
> 
> 
> I can't believe you are trying to justify a guy throwing beer at artest.


I'm not trying to justify it. I'm saying Ron Artest is not the first athlete that has ever had a beer dumped on him. He is not even on the first 100 athletes to have a beer dumped on him. He is the only athlete to beat up a fan because of it.


----------



## Hibachi!

JO And ARTEST SHOULD BE OUT FOR AT LEAST HALF A SEASON... DISPICIBLE the way they punched that guy... JO with a cheap ****ing shot...


----------



## Debt Collector

wow see that was the thing, artest went after the wrong guy


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Ice Nine</b>!
> The only player who should be suspended as a result of tonight's actions is Ben Wallace, and for 2 games at most. When fans initiate physical contact with the players, any retaliation by the players is self-defense. And damn did Jermaine nail that fat ****.


Only a 2 games suspension for one player for all of this? This is probably the biggest fight in the history of the NBA, and you think there should be only one 2-game suspesnion out of the whole thing.


----------



## JNice

Jim Gray sounds shook up.


----------



## Jewelz

Jim Gray is crying, lol!


----------



## Baron Davis

Maybe he has heart for the Pacers.


----------



## Captain Obvious

That guy in the hat they showed on ESPN better be going to jail.


----------



## Yao Mania

HOLY CRAP!!! Just saw JO's shot, that was a knockout punch!!

I wonder what that fat guy said though, seemed like JO came out of nowhere just to whale on him!


----------



## Ghost

Did anyone else see Jamal Tinsley holding that big Metal Dustpan ready to swing, :sigh: :sigh: :sigh:


----------



## arcade_rida

> Originally posted by <b>froggyvk</b>!
> New definition of irony:
> 
> Next Pistons/Pacers game-Christmas Day.
> 
> I am a Pistons fan. HOWEVER - I was not drinking beer. I wasn't the one doing the punching. _I'm_ not classless. At least, I don't think I am.
> 
> I'm ashamed.
> 
> The Pistons had "the greatest fans in all of basketball" (as quoted by many TV broadcasts, newspapers, magazines, etc.), and they completely **** up. Totally classless. What the hell were they thinking?
> 
> The thing that started this whole thing was a complete overreaction by Ben Wallace. It wasn't even a very hard foul, you idiot.
> 
> I'm boycotting the Pistons until further notice.


I respect you for actually admitting the pistons fans went wrong. I like that your not bias even though you are a die heart fan of the Pistons.


----------



## Coatesvillain

You know what, in all seriousness, I'm disgusted with ESPN. Usually when something like this happens when a spectator puts himself in the field of play the camera goes away from the action so as not to encourage others to repeat the actions.

It was bush league for ESPN and everyone involved to move the cameras to the crowd, that's setting a terrible precedent.

Is this a big story, yes? But they should've kept their minds off the big story, and just taped an area away from the action.


----------



## SignGuyDino

> Originally posted by <b>Yao Mania</b>!
> 
> 
> Maybe they gotta surround the court with fiberglass too from now on


Get that bubble like that hockey game in the arcades...


----------



## Debt Collector

> Originally posted by <b>Yao Mania</b>!
> HOLY CRAP!!! Just saw JO's shot, that was a knockout punch!!
> 
> I wonder what that fat guy said though, seemed like JO came out of nowhere just to whale on him!



well that was the other dudes boy, the other fat guy who got socked by artest


----------



## Arclite

Holy ****, Jim Gray just sounded like he was about to have a breakdown.

And those hits by Artest and O'neal on that guy, DAMN, that is just brutal. Wow.


----------



## JNice

Did they say Indy is not allowed to leave Detroit?


----------



## Damian Necronamous

Those Pistons fans were all ****in punks. I am so glad that Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson beat the **** out of some of those fat pieces of crap. Those clips were awesome. Lay down the law Indiana!!!!!


----------



## Jewelz

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> Did they say Indy is not allowed to leave Detroit?


No, they are leaving right now


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>S-Star</b>!
> JO And ARTEST SHOULD BE OUT FOR AT LEAST HALF A SEASON... DISPICIBLE the way they punched that guy... JO with a cheap ****ing shot...


People don't realize it because fighting is so often exalted, but if you hit someone hard enough and you can kill them.


----------



## SignGuyDino

Jim Grey sounded scared as hell...you could hear the trembling in his voice...I'd be scared too I guess...


----------



## Captain Obvious

You'd be shook up too if you cared about the game. This is horrible for the game of basketball. It just perpetuates the stereotypes the public have about the NBA and its players.

BTW, I still haven't seen the JO punch, I guess I'm blind.


----------



## Debt Collector

damn the most incredible thing ive ever seen in sports


----------



## rock747

> Originally posted by <b>S-Star</b>!
> JO And ARTEST SHOULD BE OUT FOR AT LEAST HALF A SEASON... DISPICIBLE the way they punched that guy... JO with a cheap ****ing shot...


Are you serious? 

That stuid fat *** was walking on the floor attacking other Pacer teamates. I donno about you, but i wouldn't just sit around and let crazy drunk fans disgrace my team. Its DISPICABLE that some Detroit Piston fans are stupid enough to think that they should get involved by throwing a beer at a Ron Artest who has restrained himself. Just baiting. Also The guy beating on Fred Jones when he was trying to restrain Artest, more baiting. I'm sorry, maybe it wasn't the best choice for Ron Artest to go after the guy, but it was the right choice to sit down while Ben Wallace was going crazy over a petty fou,l and is obviosly just frustrated cuz his team is getting smeared. I'm glad the Pacers just didn't sit around and take all that disrespect like a *****.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>PhillyPhanatic</b>!
> You know what, in all seriousness, I'm disgusted with ESPN. Usually when something like this happens when a spectator puts himself in the field of play the camera goes away from the action so as not to encourage others to repeat the actions.
> 
> It was bush league for ESPN and everyone involved to move the cameras to the crowd, that's setting a terrible precedent.
> 
> Is this a big story, yes? But they should've kept their minds off the big story, and just taped an area away from the action.


Are you kidding me!!!!!!!!! What were they supposed to do, tilt the camera towards the floor and say "nothing is happening, don't worry, nothing is going on. Just some techinical issues." The whole entire arena was the "big story" there was nothing else to possibly do. There was no way around showing this, no way. Unless you think going to commercial and just trying to make everybody forget the thousands of Pistons fans throwing stuff and all the fights going on with players and fans.:no:


----------



## spongyfungy

finally I can post

here's the video.


----------



## DaFuture

This will teach NBA fans and most fans in general to stop living their lives through a game. Im so happy right now, most fans suck and should stick a cork in it.


----------



## Yao Mania

who was the guy that jumped on the fan after Artest threw that punch?


----------



## spongyfungy

Jimmy Kimmel is talking about it!

good thing it's a live show.


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

Amare wouldn't start a fight like this! MVP! MVP!


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> finally I can post
> 
> here's the video.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: 
I should've had mine up like an hour ago, but I choked under the pressure. Great job spongy!!!!!!!!


----------



## minero

> Originally posted by <b>ToddMacCulloch11</b>!
> Amare wouldn't start a fight like this! MVP! MVP!


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## #1BucksFan

Jim Gray is about to cry.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> finally I can post
> 
> here's the video.


You are a good person.


----------



## Yao Mania

Just to lighten the mood:

Anyone surprised Rasheed wasn't a part of this at all?


----------



## Odomiles

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> finally I can post
> 
> here's the video.


Wow, what a great connection. Thanks a lot man.


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

> Originally posted by <b>Yao Mania</b>!
> Just to lighten the mood:
> 
> Anyone surprised Rasheed wasn't a part of this at all?


he was breaking it up! I was shocked...I guess he's grown up a lot, finally.


----------



## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>Jewelz</b>!
> Artest was playing it cool and didnt want to get into a fight, but he wasnt backing down like a *****, the coaches of the pacers and other players were pushing him back so he couldent start anything with Ben. Watch the clips


I have it on Tivo.

That’s BS (no offence)...

Playing it cool would have been shrugging of the beer attack then going into the locker room as security took care of the out of line fan. The deer in the headlights look while a player is charging after you / raging furry when doused with a cold one by some guy fresh off a PTA meeting is not playing it cool. Around my way its called playing it yellow.


----------



## The_Franchise

Somebody please get an avatar of O'Neal's sliding punch.

Stephen Jacksons punch was more of a ***** slap, but Artest and O'Neal locked in and exploded.


----------



## Captain Obvious

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> finally I can post
> 
> here's the video.


I'm getting audio but no video .


----------



## J19

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm getting audio but no video .



me too


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> 
> 
> I have it on Tivo.
> 
> That’s BS (no offence)...
> 
> Playing it cool would have been shrugging of the beer attack then going into the locker room as security took care of the out of line fan. The deer in the headlights look while a player is charging after you / raging furry when doused with a cold one by some guy fresh off a PTA meeting is not playing it cool. Around my way its called playing it yellow.


The guy was still cocking off to him until Artest got right next to him, then he realized he was dead. And Artest got punched in the face by Ben Wallace, and what did he do? He went and laid on the frickin scoreres table!!!!!!!!


----------



## mofo202

I want to see the 12 worst fans VS. the Pacers. I really hate those fans because there were so many and the Pacers didn't get to inflict enough punishment.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm getting audio but no video .





> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> me too


http://sourceforge.net/projects/ffdshow


----------



## mofo202

OK, who broke the avatars?!


----------



## spongyfungy

you need the xvid codec.

http://download.divxmovies.com/XviD-1.0.2-29082004.exe


----------



## ssmokinjoe

I think that it was a terrible thing to happen, but i also think that there is a lesson to come out of all of this: If you're a fan, don't try to start trouble with the players. You will get your *** handed to you.

When you go a game those are human beings that you're watching playing a sport. If you throw a beer at another human being you're gonna get a response no matter where you are. I challenge anyone here to go anywhere in the world and throw a beer at another person... let's see what happens to you.

I will not defend any of those fans. They're all idiots.


----------



## rwj333

Artest is definitely going to get hammered, deservingly or not. Larry Brown just has to, to prove a point. 

I doubt there's anyone here that wouldn't have done the same thing, given the pressure and tempure of the situation.


----------



## SignGuyDino

I'm telling you...I went to a basketball game and a hockey game broke out...


...So I guess Rasheed wins the Lady Byng Trophy? 











































:laugh:


----------



## Max Payne

Can someone post one which has O'Neal's shot at that fat **** ?


----------



## spongyfungy

> Originally posted by <b>mofo202</b>!
> OK, who broke theavatars?!


avatars should be turned off because too many connections to this server and avatars is unnecessary load.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Max Payne</b>!
> Can someone post one which has O'Neal's shot at that fat **** ?


Agreed, I missed that part too.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

THIS WAS THE GREATEST THING I HAVE EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE!!!


----------



## Midnight_Marauder

Thank God Artest didnt pop that girl talking crap in the front row.....That took a lot of restraint.....did you see her? :laugh: .....she was on some "You aint ****" stuff


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm getting audio but no video .


I don't have it yet, but I'm guessing you had a codec problem.


----------



## Arclite

You can see the guy get knocked down from O'neal's hit from one angle, but there's another where you see him just run in and crack him right in the side of his face.. but I've only seen two places run that angle, it's the most vicious part of the night by far IMHO.


----------



## reHEATed

the video isnt working for me.......it says "invalid syntex"


----------



## DerangedDisco

I am a pretty die hard Pistons fan, and I want to say that I have never been more disgusted with anything in my life. The way that the fans reacted was horrible. I always have disliked Artest and O'Neal, yet I feel myself on their side in this scandal. I was glad when I saw the fat pistons fan in the white get decked on the court. He had no reason to be there, and was stupidly threatening a obviously angry Artest.

What Wallace did was wrong, yet it cannot be unduly punished for what came of it. He should be suspended for starting a brawl, but thats all. I believe that Artest, Jackson, and O'Neal will get suspensions that are going to completely ruin the Pacers season, which is too bad.

Also, did anyone else see Rick Mahorn? He was worknig pretty hard at the beginning to stop the fight, and should be respected for what he did.


----------



## Anima

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm getting audio but no video .


You need to update your codecs.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/photos?gameId=241119008

some photos.


----------



## ErikDaniels14UK

artest acted like an idiot like usual. it wasnt wallaces fault or one persons fault it was a stupid act on both of the teams. u always see two teams getting into a small fight wallace might have overreacted but u dont know what might have came out of artest stupid mouth and it might have felt like artest intentionally punched him. artest just overreacted when someone throwed some beer on him. the person throwing the beer should have been ejected at that point. artest acted like an idiot by going over the stands and punching someone who might not have even thrown the beer in the first place. jackson just acted as stupid and he is known to do alot of stupid $*it in his career. i think artest and jackson getting beat down by some of the fans was pretty funny. wallace usually dont act or get technical fouls hes usually the quiet one out there but he probally didnt like dealing with artest and plus hes been dealing with some stuff with his brother passing away so it really wasnt just his fault. after artest got into the crowd and all i dont think the fans should have been throwing things that was stupid but artest and jackson shouldnt have never went into the crowd. i think artest will get the most longest suspension out of all three imo.


----------



## DerangedDisco

Wow, I was reading the report on Yahoo SPorts, and was surprised with how they characterized Rasheed. They said

"Detroit's Rasheed Wallace and Indiana's David Harrison were also in or near the stands"

This quote seems to imply that Rasheed was part of the fight. Thats a pretty bad thing to say, when he was trying to break it up.


----------



## Debt Collector

*here is a working video if anyone wants it* 

http://www.freecollegefootball.com/media/fight.mpg


----------



## mofo202

Poor Tommy Nunez Jr......Right in the noggin.


----------



## BG7

Ok here is my understading of the whole thing. There will be no suspensions given out for entering the stands, just a game ejection and the game was called anyhow. 

Ron Artest: (8 Games. $20,000) Lets start off with him. He gets a $1,000 dollar fine for the foul on Ben Wallace. That is just the regular fine for a flagrant foul. $19,000 dollars will most likely be given as a fine to Artest for fighting with the fans. The fighting will most likely get him around an 8 game suspension. Fighting is not permitted in the NBA even if it is provoked. 

Ben Wallace: (5 games, 10,000) He will most likely get a 5,000 dollar fine from the league for the shot at Ron Artest's throat. A 5 game suspension will likely be given. Ben Wallace really should only get a 3 game suspension, but since the whole hoo rah rah was started he will be penalized more. No excuse for throwing the towel at Artest's head, that is just as bad as the fan.

Jermaine O'neal: (10 games, $35,000) He is in a bad boat right now. He just went every where and went bizerk. He had no reason for fighting originally, and the league will not take him lightly. I suspect he will get the maximum fine of 35,000 and a suspension of 10 games.

Stephen Jackson: (8 games, $20,000) He is in the same boat as O'neal, but not quite to the same extent. He really should not of been involved.

With that said, I think that Wallace and Artest should get 3 games each, and Jackson/O'neal 5 games each. 

Throwing everything in sight is not dangerous Pan???


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>DerangedDisco</b>!
> Wow, I was reading the report on Yahoo SPorts, and was surprised with how they characterized Rasheed. They said
> 
> "Detroit's Rasheed Wallace and Indiana's David Harrison were also in or near the stands"
> 
> This quote seems to imply that Rasheed was part of the fight. Thats a pretty bad thing to say, when he was trying to break it up.


Sheed was in the stands. What's wrong with saying he was in or near the stands when he was?


----------



## Captain Obvious

Okay the video working fine now but I am retarded and I still can't see the O'Neal punch. Can somebody tell me what time the punch occurs in the video?


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

> Originally posted by <b>DerangedDisco</b>!
> Wow, I was reading the report on Yahoo SPorts, and was surprised with how they characterized Rasheed. They said
> 
> "Detroit's Rasheed Wallace and Indiana's David Harrison were also in or near the stands"
> 
> This quote seems to imply that Rasheed was part of the fight. Thats a pretty bad thing to say, when he was trying to break it up.


I've said it a few times now...sheeds actions shocked me tonight, in a good way. If this had happened when he was in portland, he would have been punching people left and right.


----------



## mofo202

Also, I'd like to see EVERY fan involved persecuted.


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> 
> Sheed was in the stands. What's wrong with saying he was in or near the stands when he was?


he was in the stands breaking things up.

if it says there was a fight in the stands and sheed was in the stands, it sounds like he was in the fight.


----------



## spongyfungy

> Originally posted by <b>DerangedDisco</b>!
> Wow, I was reading the report on Yahoo SPorts, and was surprised with how they characterized Rasheed. They said
> 
> "Detroit's Rasheed Wallace and Indiana's David Harrison were also in or near the stands"
> 
> This quote seems to imply that Rasheed was part of the fight. Thats a pretty bad thing to say, when he was trying to break it up.


sheed was just standing by the scorer's table. he wasn't doing much. that's what I saw. maybe he got in later.

Fred Jones got clocked though.


----------



## DerangedDisco

Its not that they say he was in the stands, its the way in which they used it. They talk about ARtest and Jackson jumping into the fans, and then say Rasheed was there. They don't mention that he was trying to break it up. Maybe I am reading too much into this, but from reading the article I would think that Rasheed was one of the ones fighting.


----------



## mofo202

:laugh: If you watch the video when JO is being escorted into ther back by the coaching staff in the top left corner some mother ****er gets pepper sprayed and I just cant stop laughing.:laugh: Chech it out.:laugh:


----------



## Captain Obvious

> Originally posted by <b>mofo202</b>!
> Also, I'd like to see EVERY fan involved persecuted.


I think you mean prosecuted, and unfortunately that will be next to impossible.


----------



## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>KennethTo</b>!
> I can't believe you are trying to justify a guy throwing beer at artest.


I can’t believe that you are attempting to minimize the fact that Artest charged into the stands after a fan of his own free will (what ever happened to self restraint, the same self restraint he conveniently displayed a few minutes prior).

Then to add insult to injury the guy he assaulted was not even the guy that threw the initial cup. 

-----

Artest has delivered so many cheap shots over the years that now people have become numb. They now attempt to justify them. Fact is a hard foul to the back of the neck in a decided ballgame is uncalled for. There was no play on the ball and that it was reacted to as it was (though excessive) is understandable.

If I had to place blame it would be on this idiot (Artest) who refused to accept his hard fought victory with grace.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>mofo202</b>!
> Also, I'd like to see EVERY fan involved persecuted.


I think you mean prosecuted, and I would too, that would be tough though, as it would be probably around 1000.


----------



## Amareca

Suspend Jackson, O'Neal and Artest for the year and have Detroit play in an empty arena for a year or have all Detroit home games on neutral territory.

That's how it would be done in soccer.


----------



## #1BucksFan

Are the Pistons going to break out the WWF championship belts again after tonight?


----------



## mofo202

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> 
> 
> I think you mean prosecuted, and unfortunately that will be next to impossible.


Oh, I know. And I was trying really hard to spell that one.


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> 
> Fred Jones got clocked though.


It looked like a huge bear came in from behind and tried to clock him, though it was just a huge fat guy.. it seemed like he missed every time though


----------



## mofo202

> Originally posted by <b>#1BucksFan</b>!
> Are the Pistons going to break out the WWF championship belts again after tonight?


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Arclite</b>!
> 
> 
> It looked like a huge bear came in from behind and tried to clock him, though it was just a huge fat guy.. it seemed like he missed every time though


Jim Gray said that guy was wearing "credentials" too ... wonder what that means.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Amareca</b>!
> Suspend Jackson, O'Neal and Artest for the year and have Detroit play in an empty arena for a year or have all Detroit home games on neutral territory.
> 
> That's how it would be done in soccer.


I like the idea of no fans in the stands, that's if they let them play in Detroit again this year which I honestly think they shouldn't. But it's absolutely ridiculous to say that Jackson, O'Neal, and Artest should be suspended for the year. No way. None of them should be out for the year. I haven't seen what O'Neal did, but Artest should only be out 5-10, and Jackson 10 too.


----------



## Yao Mania

> Originally posted by <b>#1BucksFan</b>!
> Are the Pistons going to break out the WWF championship belts again after tonight?


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

> Originally posted by <b>#1BucksFan</b>!
> Are the Pistons going to break out the WWF championship belts again after tonight?


hahaha, they got disqualified for using a steel chair...unless the refs didn't see it.


----------



## spongyfungy

The dumb part is that Artest attacked the wrong person. Then that guy in the blue shirt who initially threw the bottle got a couple good punches on Artest.

A guy with press credentials blind sides Fred Jones twice in the head.


----------



## rock747

Pacers/Pistons The biggest rivalary in the NBA in along time?


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> 
> 
> Throwing everything in sight is not dangerous Pan???


You're lying about what happened. Fans were not throwing everything in sight when the fight broke out. *1 person* threw a plastic cup full of beer. That's not "everything in sight." After Artest and Jackson stormed the stands, that's when mob mentality set in and people starting throwing everything.

Again, you are flat out lying about what happened. Because you yourself are in fact a *liar*.


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

I don't know if its the biggest rivalry in a while...I think it might be, I can't htink of something more. All I know is I can't wait for the next game.


----------



## J19

*I have the real video here*

Pacers vs the savages of Detriot


----------



## SignGuyDino

I think some of these guys will back right in time for the Christmas rematch...right before Kobe v.s. Shaq...

Joy to the World..


----------



## Yao Mania

> Originally posted by <b>ToddMacCulloch11</b>!
> I don't know if its the biggest rivalry in a while...I think it might be, I can't htink of something more. All I know is I can't wait for the next game.


Next game? Artest, JO, and Jackson won't be playing in the next game!


----------



## Hov

I just saw it.

Those fans are crazy, who would be that crazy to go at Artest?

But then again, it was like 3 on 50 :laugh:


----------



## Max Payne

can someone please post the video with ALL the action ?


----------



## Ice Nine

If any Pacers player receives a multigame suspension I can just about guarantee that the Christmas day game at Conseco Fieldhouse will need to be played under heavy police supervision. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 officers courtside. And how do you know that Artest attacked the wrong person? I saw no camera angle that showed who threw that first cup of beer.


----------



## JNice

As much as I would like to sympathize with Artest, he was just flat out wrong on all accounts. Starting with the un-needed foul then going into the stands. He could have stayed on the court and the fan would have been found, escorted out, and probably arrested. I expect the penalty to Artest to be significant. Wallace will probably get 3 or 4 games for the head shot on Artest. Who knows about the others. 

This is gonna be a tough call for the NBA. If the NBA comes down too hard, then it will probably start a nasty battle between them and the player's association ... which is not good for the CBA. This incident in itself could end up leading to a lockout. Sad night for the NBA.


----------



## Captain Obvious

> Originally posted by <b>rock747</b>!
> Pacers/Pistons The biggest rivalary in the NBA in along time?


No, just a couple of exceedingly stupid franchises. If I'm a fan of either team I'd have my head in the sand right about now.


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

I'd just like ot share that I've been drunk/drinking this whole time.


----------



## The_Franchise

According to ESPNews the little boy who was crying was actually one of the player's sons.


----------



## mofo202

I'd like to see that fat **** in the grey sweatshirt arrested.


----------



## BG7

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> You're lying about what happened. Fans were not throwing everything in sight when the fight broke out. *1 person* threw a plastic cup full of beer. That's not "everything in sight." After Artest and Jackson stormed the stands, that's when mob mentality set in and people starting throwing everything.
> 
> Again, you are flat out lying about what happened. Because you yourself are in fact a *liar*.


So every fan was just sitting nicely in their seats just eating away and chatting of good positive thoughts of both teams, and then a guy throws a cup at Artest and all hell breaks loose. That not how it happened. People were throwing stuff all over the stadium. Yes, only one guy through something at Artest, but fans all over were already throwing a ****load of food, beer, whatever. It was a dangerous place to be for fans, players, coaches, officials, and announcers. Its an ugly fight indeed, but one guy did not just start the whole mobscene. The mobscene was already there, and it just escalated from fans throwing stuff everywhere, to fans throwing things everywhere, and fighting with players. How can you justify those 2 fat guys on the court. I didn't know fans could just come on and off the court whenever they wish. Those 2 guys got what was coming in terms of punishment, but it should of been by a taser from a police officer. This thing is ugly, but to say that the whole throwing crap everywhere started with a guy throwing a cup at Artest, is just plain nonsense.


----------



## Spriggan

Can someone post a clip of the idiot fatass getting clocked by both Artest and Jermaine?


----------



## SignGuyDino

Just look at the main story off nba.com :laugh: 


Jim Grey was the one who said that guy in the blue shirt and grey hat was the one who threw the bottle at Artest, not the nerdy guy Artest attacked.


----------



## SamTheMan67

jesus did u see those 2 fans come after artest on the court !!


----------



## The_Franchise

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> As much as I would like to sympathize with Artest, he was just flat out wrong on all accounts. Starting with the un-needed foul then going into the stands. He could have stayed on the court and the fan would have been found, escorted out, and probably arrested. I expect the penalty to Artest to be significant. Wallace will probably get 3 or 4 games for the head shot on Artest. Who knows about the others.
> 
> This is gonna be a tough call for the NBA. If the NBA comes down too hard, then it will probably start a nasty battle between them and the player's association ... which is not good for the CBA. This incident in itself could end up leading to a lockout. Sad night for the NBA.


I have to agree with Mark Cuban on this one, publicity helps out a league even if it's bad. Like the Kobe trial, this gives people something to talk about, something to keep track of, and any nationally broadcasted Pacers games will have strong ratings. Everyone wants to see who this Ron Artest guy is.


----------



## Arclite

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> Can someone post a clip of the idiot fatass getting clocked by both Artest and Jermaine?


The actions of the players were pretty much tea and crumpets compared to those two hits, except maybe the Jack-slap.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Ming Bling</b>!
> 
> 
> I have to agree with Mark Cuban on this one, publicity helps out a league even if it's bad. Like the Kobe trial, this gives people something to talk about, something to keep track of, and any nationally broadcasted Pacers games will have strong ratings. Everyone wants to see who this Ron Artest guy is.


I agree with the publicity part. But if this ends up as a catalyst to a war between the NBA and the PA and ends up in a lockout, then that is definitely not a good thing. For the league or the fans.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> 
> 
> So every fan was just sitting nicely in their seats just eating away and chatting of good positive thoughts of both teams, and then a guy throws a cup at Artest and all hell breaks loose. That not how it happened. People were throwing stuff all over the stadium. Yes, only one guy through something at Artest, but fans all over were already throwing a ****load of food, beer, whatever. It was a dangerous place to be for fans, players, coaches, officials, and announcers. Its an ugly fight indeed, but one guy did not just start the whole mobscene. The mobscene was already there, and it just escalated from fans throwing stuff everywhere, to fans throwing things everywhere, and fighting with players. How can you justify those 2 fat guys on the court. I didn't know fans could just come on and off the court whenever they wish. Those 2 guys got what was coming in terms of punishment, but it should of been by a taser from a police officer. This thing is ugly, but to say that the whole throwing crap everywhere started with a guy throwing a cup at Artest, is just plain nonsense.


You are a liar.

I said that getting a beer thrown at you is not an attack.

You responded by saying that throwing everything in sight is an attack.

That is not what happened.

That is a lie.

You are a liar.


----------



## mofo202

Sure I have Sacto VS. Memphis on, but i haven't even noticed it. Kings Vs. Grizz most useless national televised game ever?


----------



## DaFuture

*A message need to be sent*

to fans buyiung tickets to sporting events doesnt give you the right to abuse players, buying tickets doesnt allow you to throw stuff at the players, and it doesnt allow you to take the frustrations of yur pitiful life on the players.


Artest shouldnt get moore that 10 games.


----------



## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>Ice Nine</b>!
> And how do you know that Artest attacked the wrong person? I saw no camera angle that showed who threw that first cup of beer.


Well considering that the guy he attached had a big cup of beer in his hand (much like the one that hit Artest) when Artest attached him I would venture to say that he fingered the wrong guy.

Who has two Jumbo beer cups in hand my friend (you do the math).


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

> Originally posted by <b>SignGuyDino</b>!
> Just look at the main story off nba.com :laugh:



:laugh: I noticed that before. I like how they are just like "Well uh...wade won a game! look at that"


----------



## mofo202

What are the chances that this thread finally gets my *** to 2000 posts? I need to post like I used to.


----------



## spongyfungy

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> Can someone post a clip of the idiot fatass getting clocked by both Artest and Jermaine?


To watch all my videos, you should get the k lite codec pack

JO clocks that fat fan 

divx codec


----------



## DaBigTicketKG21

They got knocked out. Bad Boys no longer go to the Pistons. The Pacers are the new Bad Boys of the NBA.


----------



## BG7

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> You are a liar.
> 
> I said that getting a beer thrown at you is not an attack.
> 
> You responded by saying that throwing everything in sight is an attack.
> 
> That is not what happened.
> 
> That is a lie.
> 
> You are a liar.


Wow! You can't even post something of substance in response to this. You just call me a liar over and over again. Any person is in danger when thousands of people are throwing **** all over. A chair almost hit Jermaine O'neal please tell me that he is not in any sort of danger. A referee got hit in the head by something. Artest was unfairly hit by a towel from Ben Wallace but then something from a fan was the last straw. I really hope you are not trying to tell me that it is alright to throw stuff at the players.


----------



## #1BucksFan

In situations like this, nobody is right. Ben Wallace shouldn't have reacted that way to a foul, the fan should have not thrown the beer, Artest shouldn't have charged and beat down a fan, ect.

At least this will overshadow the whole Terrell Owens Monday Night skit turmoil. That was annoying.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!


I can not receive posts from you any more. I can not converse with people who willingly and intentional not only distort the truth, but also what others say. That is despicable. You no longer exist to me.


----------



## ZWW

WOW!

I feel like I'm at the Vibe Awards. :laugh:


----------



## BallBiologist

LOL..the sad thing is artest got the best...he starts the rumble..then he chills on the courtside table...and cops the guys headset...then a fan throws beer at him...he knocks a few guys out....then goes back on court..knocks 2 other guys out...and immediately the other 2 guys dont get to retaliate..haha


----------



## -James-

anyone see th look on that *****'s face... he was egging ron ron on then once he saw security wasnt gonna stop him in time... damn that look was priceless. this is how i see suspensions and punishments going down (keep in mind the nba is notorious for being very stern with punishments and that this may be one of the worst incidents in sport ever):
- a monster fine to detroit for having unprepared security
- no more games in detroit for the year... i doubt the palace will serve beer anymore...
- possible permanent bannings from the palace
- revoking of a lot season tickets
- a hell of a lotta arrests including JO, stephen jackson and ron ron
- at least 3 games for every player that went into the stands: freddie, sheed and david harrison
- the mandatory 1 game for elden campbell, derrick coleman and chauncey billups for leaving the bench
- 10 games for ben
- although i dont agree, ron ron and JO will prolly get it til at least the all star break
- jax will get the year
- i highly, highly doubt the nba will let the pistons and pacers play in indiana... that WILL get even uglier. consider the nba must consider their image and this game will be on christmas day and on network television... not good

but the biggest punishment goes to the fans there especially the kids like the 4-year old boy crying uncontrolably and being consoled by his 10-year old brother. those two probably have a permanent distaste for basketball now as would many others i would think. indiana's season may now be ruined. 


btw, i would have been especially pissed if my main man freddie jones was injured by that ******* who blind sided him...


----------



## GB

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> I can not receive posts from you anymore. I can not converse with people who willingly and intentional not only distort the truth, but also what others say. That is despicable. You no longer exist to me.


He's on my ignore list too.


----------



## Tragedy

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> You are a liar.
> 
> I said that getting a beer thrown at you is not an attack.
> 
> You responded by saying that throwing everything in sight is an attack.
> 
> That is not what happened.
> 
> That is a lie.
> 
> You are a liar.



Here's a nice example. By law, if someone blows cigarette smoke in your face you can sue for assault.

Learned that from a lawyer friend of mine.


----------



## lakegz

did you guys see Artest when he was being held back by Austin Croshere towards the end of the brawl?
To me, it looked like he knew what he had done and how it would have severe consequences, and he look extremely distraught.


----------



## SignGuyDino

Ben Wallace: My Basketball New Year's Resolution? To keep playing basketball the right way....



:laugh:


----------



## JNice

Cops are investigating now. They say they'll prosecute anyone involved who they though was unlawful, including players.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> 
> 
> To watch all my videos, you should get the k lite codec pack
> 
> JO clocks that fat fan
> 
> divx codec


Cool, thanks a bunch.


----------



## mofo202

> Originally posted by <b>#1BucksFan</b>!
> 
> 
> At least this will overshadow the whole Terrell Owens Monday Night skit turmoil. That was annoying.


Ah yes, good point.


----------



## PacersguyUSA

Nice.


----------



## PoorPoorSonics

I was out to eat at red robin when it happened and they had the game on the tvs there. The place was packed and when the fight started you could hear everyone start talking and a ton of people moved up closer to the tvs.


----------



## The_Franchise

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> I agree with the publicity part. But if this ends up as a catalyst to a war between the NBA and the PA and ends up in a lockout, then that is definitely not a good thing. For the league or the fans.


The public sentiment is definitely with the Pacers right now. Artest charged into the stands and attacked a fan which cannot be justified, but I think the actions of the crowd during and after the brawl will overshadow the fact that Artest actually charged at a fan, and the wrong one at that. 

The feat of a lockout will lurk heavily in Stern's mind, I doubt Artest and Jackson will be hit with big suspensions... because the league definitely doesn't want to put up some sort of barricade around the court. Maybe 8-10 games, but nothing on the magnitude of Sprewell's suspension.

Edit: I just noticed that the fan Artest clocked on the court did nothing but verbally provoke him, Artest punching him will really hurt his case.


----------



## BG7

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> I can not receive posts from you anymore. I can not converse with people who willingly and intentional not only distort the truth, but also what others say. That is despicable. You no longer exist to me.


Once again you use nonsense as your arguement, by not stating anything but I am a liar that distorts the truth. How can you defend the fans who were throwing stuff and then the guy who threw it Artest. Everyone is wrong in the situation Artest, the gay guys in the stand, O'neal, Wallace, Jackson, just not a good situation. This is not a Artest vs. one man like you are trying to make it out to be.


----------



## socco

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!! I just saw Ron's second ordeal, and O'Neal's punch. That was NICE!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Hov

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!! I just saw Ron's second ordeal, and O'Neal's punch. That was NICE!!!!!!!!!



o'neal killed that guy.


----------



## spongyfungy

LOL. sweet. the telestrator goes off too.!


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

> Originally posted by <b>Hov</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


:laugh: that guys face is funy enough as is. He's all tough when there is that guy between him and artest and then the guy moves and he's like "Oooooh ****"


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Hov</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


:laugh: Poor dude, it wasn't even him. I probably would have dropped one in my pants.


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

okay who was the guy in the suit that looked like he took a shot at those 2 guys who went after artest... he did it right after oneal did the sliding punch.


----------



## Yao Mania

> Originally posted by <b>Hov</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


nice!!

wasn't the guy that pushed Artest forward the same guy that held him back after and punched him behind?? Somebody had too many drinks!


----------



## PoorPoorSonics

Why is everyone talking like Artest dealt that guy in the pistons jersey some devestating blow?

The guy took it fine and kept on coming...the way everyone is talking they make it sound like a way better shot, like he knocked the guy out cold...it was nothing.


----------



## Spriggan

HOLY ****, THAT HIT BY JERMAINE WAS ****ING RIDICULOUS!

****ING POETRY IN MOTION!

I mean, holy ****. Wow.


----------



## Max Payne

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> You are a liar.
> 
> I said that getting a beer thrown at you is not an attack.
> 
> You responded by saying that throwing everything in sight is an attack.
> 
> That is not what happened.
> 
> That is a lie.
> 
> You are a liar.


 Dude, honest to God, just SHUT THE [edit] UP...I'm with BabyBlue..you're saying that SOMEONE PHYSICALLY ASSAULTING YOU BY THROWING SOMETHING AT YOU IS NOT AN ATTACK ??? ARE YOU [edit] CRAZY ? AT LEAST AMARECA PUTS UP A COMPELLING CASE WHEN HE DEFENDS AMARE BUT [YOU ARE A [edit] DISGRACE TO THIS BOARD...SIT DOWN AND LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT MAKING A [edit] ARGUMENT DUDE...geezus

[Watch it. This is a bit much. -JNice]


----------



## Coatesvillain

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> Are you kidding me!!!!!!!!! What were they supposed to do, tilt the camera towards the floor and say "nothing is happening, don't worry, nothing is going on. Just some techinical issues." The whole entire arena was the "big story" there was nothing else to possibly do. There was no way around showing this, no way. Unless you think going to commercial and just trying to make everybody forget the thousands of Pistons fans throwing stuff and all the fights going on with players and fans.:no:


It would be the better way to go for ESPN, now instead they're publicizing the violence. It's common practice when a fan involves him/herself in the field of play to not focus on him/her. Like during the Super Bowl the man streaked onto the field, and the camera went the otherway.

This was terrible handling of the situation, and I'll stand by that. This isn't about making people forget, it's about preventing copy cats. NFL showed Cleveland fans throwing beer bottles on the field in the game against Browns, and they showed it repeatedly.. and the act happened against during the Saints - Rams game on MNF, when there was no reason to throw items on the field.

Now this right here the out and out publicizing of this moment, which has people going about how "cool" and "awesome" it is, what's to prevent any altercation between players to become something like this?


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>ToddMacCulloch11</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> o'neal killed that guy.


I wouldn't be surprised if he died, O'Neal clocked him. I LOVE THIS GAME!!!!!!


----------



## The Enigma

ESPN's analysis of the situation (Saunders in particular) is deplorable.

All the blame cannot be placed on the fans.

Fact is that one stupid fan hit Artest with a beer and he ran into the stands.

Repeat...

He ran into the stands (a fan did not initially run onto the court). Artest ran into the stands (nearly instigating a riot).

-----

It still seems to me that the fact Artest delivered his now customary cheap shot in a 14 second blowout victory for his team is being minimized.

So much so that it is receiving absolutely no airplay by the hacks at ESPN. It would appear to the oblivious onlooker that Ben Wallace just shoved Artest out of the blue.

As I see it Artest instigated two incidents (a retaliation and a riot).


----------



## patticus

*where can I see clips of the Pistons/Artest melee*

no tv, link me!  please.


----------



## Hov

> Originally posted by <b>ToddMacCulloch11</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh: that guys face is funy enough as is. He's all tough when there is that guy between him and artest and then the guy moves and he's like "Oooooh ****"


Yeah when that guy in the white shirt is in front of him, it looks like he's yelling some insult, but once he got out of the way... 



:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## Max Payne

> Originally posted by <b>Max Payne</b>!
> 
> 
> Dude, honest to God, just SHUT THE [edit] UP...I'm with BabyBlue..you're saying that SOMEONE PHYSICALLY ASSAULTING YOU BY THROWING SOMETHING AT YOU IS NOT AN ATTACK ??? ARE YOU [edit] CRAZY ? AT LEAST AMARECA PUTS UP A COMPELLING CASE WHEN HE DEFENDS AMARE BUT [YOU ARE A [edit] DISGRACE TO THIS BOARD...SIT DOWN AND LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT MAKING A [edit] ARGUMENT DUDE...geezus
> 
> [Watch it. This is a bit much. -JNice]


 I'm sorry, I went out of control (like the players !)...he's been pissing a lot of us off for a while now...but I won't attack him again.


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> 
> 
> To watch all my videos, you should get the k lite codec pack
> 
> JO clocks that fat fan
> 
> divx codec


Pause that video at about 13.5 seconds what do you see?


----------



## -James-

i just saw the JO hit over on the nike boards... peep it:

once 

twice 

and once more just for fun


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Max Payne</b>!
> 
> 
> Dude, honest to God, just SHUT THE [edit] UP...I'm with BabyBlue..you're saying that SOMEONE PHYSICALLY ASSAULTING YOU BY THROWING SOMETHING AT YOU IS NOT AN ATTACK ??? ARE YOU [edit] CRAZY ? AT LEAST AMARECA PUTS UP A COMPELLING CASE WHEN HE DEFENDS AMARE BUT [YOU ARE A [edit] DISGRACE TO THIS BOARD...SIT DOWN AND LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT MAKING A [edit] ARGUMENT DUDE...geezus
> 
> [Watch it. This is a bit much. -JNice]


Artest was not physically assaulted. Weightless plastic cups a quarter full of beer does not qualify of as something that can possibly hurt another person. He was in no danger of being hurt, in any way other than discomfort from being wet, because 1 person threw 1 beer at him.

You are wrong. And exaggerating the reality of what happened to strengthen your side. I honestly can not engage in a conversation with someone that considers a plastic cup 1/4 full of beer as being dangerous.


----------



## Debt Collector

i feel like fighting now


----------



## GB

Artest went after a fan instead of Ben Wallace.

Think about that.


----------



## Kuskid

A couple quick, completely unorganized thoughts:
The guy Artest went after _was still holding a beer._ My guess is he didn't even throw it at Artest in the first place. Artest stormed the stands, the kid kept running his mouth, and paid quite a price for it. I don't think Artest hit the right guy. 

And how about this quote: "This is not a pretty sight, but, it happens." - Bill Walton, following the huge brawl between the Pacers and the Pistons' fans.

This will be more famous than the Punch on Rudy T.

Once again, the NBA tries to draw as little attention as possible to it. Dwyane Wade making clutch free throws is the headline right now on NBA.com. But I guess you can't blame them for wishing that hadn't happened?

For the people blaming lack of security, a riot is possibly the toughest thing for cops to contain, and that's just what this was.

You can argue all you want about fault, but _almost no one was right here_ (cept maybe Sheed ). Hundreds of people crossed a line that shouldn't be crossed at a sporting event: physical contact between players and fans. Whose fault that is depends on your own personal morals: "He threw beer at him I'd knock him out too!" or "A player shouldn't hit a fan taunting him and posing no physical threat." There's so many things you can nit-pick and twist in your team's favor it's impossible to argue.

Anyone who thought this whole thing was "sweet" should have seen that one little kid crying n being consoled by his (I'm assuming) older brother. That's a scary-*** situation for little kids.

This was just a terrible night for anyone involved. At all. The Pistons. Their fans. The Pacers. It's gonna be tough for Stern, he's gonna get *****ed at no matter what decision he makes. This whole event was just so wrong for so many people in so many different ways.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>PhillyPhanatic</b>!
> 
> 
> It would be the better way to go for ESPN, now instead they're publicizing the violence. It's common practice when a fan involves him/herself in the field of play to not focus on him/her. Like during the Super Bowl the man streaked onto the field, and the camera went the otherway.
> 
> This was terrible handling of the situation, and I'll stand by that. This isn't about making people forget, it's about preventing copy cats. NFL showed Cleveland fans throwing beer bottles on the field in the game against Browns, and they showed it repeatedly.. and the act happened against during the Saints - Rams game on MNF, when there was no reason to throw items on the field.
> 
> Now this right here the out and out publicizing of this moment, which has people going about how "cool" and "awesome" it is, what's to prevent any altercation between players to become something like this?


A man ran on the field naked, ok, big deal. But when there is a freaking brawl, what do you expect. I really honestly want to know what you think they should've done at the moment it happened? I'm not talking about on SportsCenter and stuff, I'm talking live. Commercial? That was the only option, because if they had video of anything inside the arena it would be showing the fight. And the cameras were already on it. In the SuperBowl they didn't have cameras on every fan, and then once one ran on the field they didn't show it. Fans running on the field isn't part of the action. It's harmless and just for attention. This situation is neither harmless nor just for attention. Video isn't just on ESPN either, it is absolutely everywhere. I wouldn't be surprised if you see this on the food channel. ESPN is supposedly the leader in sports, you know hoe much business they'd lose if they didn't show one of the biggest scenes in sports not only this year, but in a long long time? There is no way around showing this.

The reason why they don't show fans on teh court is because as I said it's just for attention, and it's usually harmless. Remember when that psycho and his kid charged the fiedl in Chicago and attacked an ump? That was all over TV, ESPN, local TV, everywhere. These type of things ARE supposed to be televised, there's no way around it.


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> i feel like fighting now


time to start a bbb.net fight club.


----------



## visionary432

> Originally posted by <b>LBJthefuturegoat</b>!
> 
> 
> Pause that video at about 13.5 seconds what do you see?



i see a suited guy punching the fat fan


----------



## Ghost

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> Artest was not physically assaulted. Weightless paper cups a quarter full of beer does not qualify of as something that can possibly hurt another person. He was in no danger of being hurt, in any way other than discomfort from being wet, because 1 person threw 1 beer at him.
> 
> You are wrong. And exaggerating the reality of what happened to strengthen your side. I honestly can not engage in a conversation with someone that considers a plastic cup 1/4 full of beer as being dangerous.


The Announcer on ESPN News said Throwing Beer at someone is considered Assualt by the law and what Ron Artest did can be considered Self Defense in a court of Law.


----------



## ssmokinjoe

OT: I loved that Braveheart movie by Mel Gibson.


----------



## spongyfungy

> Originally posted by <b>PoorPoorSonics</b>!
> Why is everyone talking like Artest dealt that guy in the pistons jersey some devestating blow?
> 
> The guy took it fine and kept on coming...the way everyone is talking they make it sound like a way better shot, like he knocked the guy out cold...it was nothing.


yeah he was fine. then that guy in the suit knocked him down.

but JO came in like superman with that one punch and that knocked him back good.


----------



## clhb1

> Originally posted by <b>PoorPoorSonics</b>!
> Why is everyone talking like Artest dealt that guy in the pistons jersey some devestating blow?
> 
> The guy took it fine and kept on coming...the way everyone is talking they make it sound like a way better shot, like he knocked the guy out cold...it was nothing.


Well if you want to argue that Artest did not hurt the fat guy, that's arguable. The fact of the matter remains J.O. finished the job Artest....couldn't???


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Ghost</b>!
> 
> 
> The Announcer on ESPN News said Throwing Beer at someone is considered Assualt by the law and what Ron Artest did can be considered Self Defense in a court of Law.


No, you are wrong.


----------



## JustinSane

Artest attacked the wrong guy. It's not self defense to attack an innocent spectator someone threw beer at you and you're not sure who.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Ghost</b>!
> 
> 
> The Announcer on ESPN News said Throwing Beer at someone is considered Assualt by the law and what Ron Artest did can be considered Self Defense in a court of Law.


You are right on the assault. If I throw a feather at you, it can be classified as assault.

But I don't believe Artest has a self-defense case. He was not in continued danger from that action and the guy wasn't even in close proximity of him.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> Artest went after a fan instead of Ben Wallace.
> 
> Think about that.


Artest managed to restrain his anger that long, I'm very proud of Artest for that. I really can't believe that he didn't go off on Big Ben. That would've been a nice fight though, first punch wins pretty much, those two guys are freaking beasts.



> Originally posted by <b>visionary432</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> i see a suited guy punching the fat fan


An assistant coach I'm guessing.


----------



## Pacers Fan

> Originally posted by <b>Kuskid</b>!
> 
> You can argue all you want about fault, but _almost no one was right here_ (cept maybe Sheed ).


Sheed was shoving a guy half his size, Jamaal Tinsley.


----------



## Spriggan

Man, so many people are talking about Ron Artest, but I think JO faces *far* more serious consequences.

Holy **** did you see that hit? I still can't get over that. He pulverized him.


----------



## mofo202

I feel bad for that fat guy. From what I see he was just trying to protect the other fan from Artest then JO came over and just ****ing ROCKED him.


----------



## MonkeyBallZJr

The Pistons should take responsibility for the stupidity of their fans....

They should play the rest of their home games this season behind closed doors.


----------



## DaFuture

the guy who threw the beer pushed artest onto the innocent guy he is a *****


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> Man, so many people are talking about Ron Artest, but I think JO faces *far* more serious consequences.
> 
> Holy **** did you see that hit? I still can't get over that. He pulverized him.


Agreed. I would not be surprised to see him charged for that. It almost seemed unprovoked, at least in terms of his own immediate danger.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> Sheed was shoving a guy half his size, Jamaal Tinsley.


Sheed was talking s*** the whole time, but surprisingly he was trying to break it up most of the time. He still was at fault in what I saw, just for continuing the fight by yapping at the Pacers players when it easily could've been over.


----------



## Kuskid

> Originally posted by <b>Pacers Fan</b>!
> 
> 
> Sheed was shoving a guy half his size, Jamaal Tinsley.


My bad, didn't see that. It did seem too good to be true, a huge brawl and Rasheed Wallace trying to *stop* it the whole time.


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

how bout that kings/griz games? I've had it on this whole time, but haven't really payed attention til now.


----------



## mofo202

I really hope that with this comes a great new feature for NBA Live 2006.


----------



## Yao Mania

> Originally posted by <b>mofo202</b>!
> I feel bad for that fat guy. From what I see he was just trying to protect the other fan from Artest then JO came over and just ****ing ROCKED him.


I'm sure JO had a reason for whaling that particular guy


----------



## BG7

The guy that appears to be pushing Artest into the nerd is the guy that supposively threw the beer at Artest. He fits the exact description given by the ESPN courtside announcer. Maybe the guy redirected Artest into that direction, and Artest was trying to stop himself. Its hard to say, but Artest is strong enough to take a guy down, not trying to. This is just pure speculation and nothing to take for fact.


----------



## deranged40

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> Artest was not physically assaulted. Weightless plastic cups a quarter full of beer does not qualify of as something that can possibly hurt another person. He was in no danger of being hurt, in any way other than discomfort from being wet, because 1 person threw 1 beer at him.
> 
> You are wrong. And exaggerating the reality of what happened to strengthen your side. I honestly can not engage in a conversation with someone that considers a plastic cup 1/4 full of beer as being dangerous.


Technically, yes it is physical assault. You're wrong. As someone said earlier, if someone blows cigarette smoke in your face, it's technically assault.


----------



## spongyfungy

nice game on ESPN now.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>mofo202</b>!
> I feel bad for that fat guy. From what I see he was just trying to protect the other fan from Artest then JO came over and just ****ing ROCKED him.


You're right, O'Neal hit the wrong guy too, lol. The guy who wanted to fight with Artest had the black hat on, O'Neal hit the other guy who was trying to break up the fight. Poor guy.


----------



## -James-

JO absolutely clocked him... i always had a feeling he could kick some serious ***... this just proves my feelings right.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> Man, so many people are talking about Ron Artest, but I think JO faces *far* more serious consequences.
> 
> Holy **** did you see that hit? I still can't get over that. He pulverized him.


Yes. A lot of people here are joking about it, but he could have seriously injured that guy. And obviously the guy wasn't doing anything at the time that could make what J.O. did be defense. He could go to jail for that.


----------



## Hibachi!

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> Can someone post a clip of the idiot fatass getting clocked by both Artest and Jermaine?


Here is just a little clip... Shows JO knocking out this guy perfectly...


http://home.comcast.net/~superfx/stuff/artest.avi


----------



## socco

158MB 3 Minute high quality video here for the taking.
http://s7.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=8704FD961D685369368368F5DBFDAB48


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>deranged40</b>!
> 
> 
> Technically, yes it is physical assault. You're wrong. As someone said earlier, if someone blows cigarette smoke in your face, it's technically assault.


No, you're wrong. You can not start a riot because someone throws a beer cup at you. You can, however, go to jail for starting riots.


----------



## -James-

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The guy that appears to be pushing Artest into the nerd is the guy that supposively threw the beer at Artest. He fits the exact description given by the ESPN courtside announcer. Maybe the guy redirected Artest into that direction, and Artest was trying to stop himself. Its hard to say, but Artest is strong enough to take a guy down, not trying to. This is just pure speculation and nothing to take for fact.


i think you may be right... i think if you look closely, it doesn't look like ron ron is even going after the guy... it actually looks like ron ron lost his balance and was just looking for something to lean on... he easily could have accidently knocked the guy over then **** started


----------



## arenas809

It's funny how some people themselves above people and are quick to judge...

Get serious.

The average person, if someone threw a beer at you, you'd kick their *** unless you knew you couldn't regardless you'd want to retaliate.

First off, Ben Wallace way overreacted at Artest's foul, its not like Artest grabbed him and threw him down.

Wallace was still going after him even while he's laying on his back.

If Wallace lets it go, this is probably nothing more than him getting ejected and Artest is charged with a flagrant foul.

If a fan has the cojones to throw some **** out on the court and hit someone, and not expect retaliation, then just that's a dumb *****.

Those fans should go to jail, and out of all the players, I think Wallace should get the longest suspension.


----------



## Ghost

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> No, you are wrong.


How am I wrong when I was just saying what i heard the Announcer say on ESPN News?


----------



## JuniorNoboa

> Originally posted by <b>Ghost</b>!
> 
> 
> The Announcer on ESPN News said Throwing Beer at someone is considered Assualt by the law and what Ron Artest did can be considered Self Defense in a court of Law.


In certain states it might be, but laws are applied differently accross states.

Also, if someone runs at me in a bar, threatens me, and throws beer at me, then yes that is assault, and I feel the need to defend myself because of the potential danger.

If you think in any way that Artest was in the same type of danger as the situation described above, then quite frankly your not thinking right. Nobody was in danger - REPEAT, there was no danger until Artest decided to take an idiotic response.


----------



## Hibachi!

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> It's funny how some people themselves above people and are quick to judge...
> 
> Get serious.
> 
> The average person, if someone threw a beer at you, you'd kick their *** unless you knew you couldn't regardless you'd want to retaliate.
> 
> First off, Ben Wallace way overreacted at Artest's foul, its not like Artest grabbed him and threw him down.
> 
> Wallace was still going after him even while he's laying on his back.
> 
> If Wallace lets it go, this is probably nothing more than him getting ejected and Artest is charged with a flagrant foul.
> 
> If a fan has the cojones to throw some **** out on the court and hit someone, and not expect retaliation, then just that's a dumb *****.
> 
> Those fans should go to jail, and out of all the players, I think Wallace should get the longest suspension.


I don't ****ing understand... Why the hell should WALLACE get the longest suspension? Yes he overreacted but did nothing more than the average NBA fight... The fact that it got out of hand between the fans and the Pacers should have NOTHING to do with what Wallace deserved... Then you gotta realize, you aren't the AVERAGE person... Sure YOU might go kick his ***, but you as a player are not the average person. You are a performer, you are 1 person, they are many. To go INTO the stands is dumb and stupid, never ever is it OK to attack a fan... And when I say never, I say never... Like that guy JO punched, what for? What did he do to JO? Talk some trash? That deserves a punch in the face at full force? JO was the most dispicible... That was disgusting... I don't care WHAT a fan does, you don't attack someone... Ben Wallace deserves NOTHING more than a few games, Artest, JO, and Stephen Jackson deserve to be suspended til the All Star Break... You empathize with Artest? You get hit in the face with a CUP, so what happens if u walk away, you lose some dignity... ARTEST WAS IN NO PHYSICAL DANGER UNTIL HE DECIDED TO GO ATTACK THE FAN... NONE WHATSOEVER... You mean to tell me CHARGING at a guy who is rows back, who has NO intention of doing anything to you... You mean to tell me that the guy that threw the beer had ANY intention of attacking Artest again? That isn't self defense... That's idiotic... You go attack the fan, sure you get satisfied, but you also bring **** in... Guys like JO and Stephen Jackson who had NO right at all to be punching people... Yet BEN WALLACE, should get the biggest suspension for pushing Artest... Sure... Makes sense...


----------



## The_Franchise

WTF was Jamaal Tinsley, coming back to attack the fans with a frikin duster. A duster.


----------



## deranged40

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> No, you're wrong. You can not start a riot because someone throws a beer cup at you. You can, however, go to jail for starting riots.


*edited: Do not use personal attacks* Ask any lawyer or consult any law book. It will tell you that is ASSAULT. You can't deny cold hard truth.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

> Originally posted by <b>JustinSane</b>!
> Artest attacked the wrong guy. It's not self defense to attack an innocent spectator someone threw beer at you and you're not sure who.


Another great point.

The guy who got initially assualted by Artest, did not do anything other then laugh. I suppose some will say the act of laughing at someone is assault.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Ming Bling</b>!
> WTF was Jamaal Tinsley, coming back to attack the fans with a frikin duster. A duster.


Dust pan, get it right.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> 
> 
> Another great point.
> 
> The guy who got initially assualted by Artest, did not do anything other then laugh. I suppose some will say the act of laughing at someone is assault.


We still don't know that for sure right? Is there video showing the guy in the blue or whatever was the one that threw it? I'm not really doubting it, just haven't seen that for sure. I know O'Neal punched the guy who was trying to break up the fight.


----------



## DuckWorth

I CANNOT feel sorry for the fan who got hit by JO. STAY OFF THE COURT!!!


----------



## Debt Collector

you know what, artest didnt even punch that guy. he got shoved lost his balance and the guy broke his fall. the damn guy with a blue jersey and grey hat then held him, then tied artest up, and socked him AT LEAST THREE TIMES in the back of the head


----------



## mofo202

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The guy that appears to be pushing Artest into the nerd is the guy that supposively threw the beer at Artest. He fits the exact description given by the ESPN courtside announcer. Maybe the guy redirected Artest into that direction, and Artest was trying to stop himself. Its hard to say, but Artest is strong enough to take a guy down, not trying to. This is just pure speculation and nothing to take for fact.


You know, also when he got up, he didn't seem to throw any punches at the guys on the ground which he had just toppled onto. It started to get out of hand when the guy held him from the back while Stephen Jackson just started hitting random people.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>DuckWorth</b>!
> I CANNOT feel sorry for the fan who got hit by JO. STAY OFF THE COURT!!!


He was trying to protect his friend who started a fight with Artest. He got hit by a coach or something, then was had a look on his face like "what are you doing, I didn't do anything" and then O'Neal nails him in the face and knocks him out.


----------



## mofo202

> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> you know what, artest didnt even punch that guy. he got shoved lost his balance and the guy broke his fall. the damn guy with a blue jersey and grey hat then held him, then tied artest up, and socked him AT LEAST THREE TIMES in the back of the head


We figured it out at the same time.


----------



## Debt Collector

YOU KNOW WHAT i think the chick threw the beer at him her arm was up there like she followed through on a jump shot


----------



## JuniorNoboa

> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> you know what, artest didnt even punch that guy. he got shoved lost his balance and the guy broke his fall. the damn guy with a blue jersey and grey hat then held him, then tied artest up, and socked him AT LEAST THREE TIMES in the back of the head


You might be right - to the video replay we go.


----------



## BEEZ

*First I would like to thank everyone for posting here tonight. Im glad you guys decided to post here on the best message board on the Net.

Now onto the fight.

Pan you are unequivocally WRONG!!! Throwing any object no matter the form weight and or content in 46 out of the 50 states is considered ASSUALT!!!!!!

2ndly J.O and or Artest shouldnt be fined or suspended with the fight that took place on the COURT. Fans are not to enter the court PERIOD. THe guy that did it and if you watch the video he even guided him to his friend. That doesnt make it any better.*


----------



## RomaVictor

> Originally posted by <b>deranged40</b>!
> 
> 
> Technically, yes it is physical assault. You're wrong. As someone said earlier, if someone blows cigarette smoke in your face, it's technically assault.


Yep, any unauthorized or unwanted touching is assault.

I love these cats who don't know the law.

However, it is not 'self-defense' for Artest to run up in the stands. But it was assault on the guy with the hat.


----------



## -James-

i got a good link to the whole thing:

http://mfile.akamai.com/12942/wmv/vod.ibsys.com/2004/1120/3935750.200k.asx


----------



## deranged40

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> 
> He was trying to protect his friend who started a fight with Artest. He got hit by a coach or something, then was had a look on his face like "what are you doing, I didn't do anything" and then O'Neal nails him in the face and knocks him out.


Yeah, if you watch the video you'll notice that JO hits the wrong guy. The "right" guy is the round-pound in the black hat, and the guy taht O'Neal hit was his friend trying to break it up. They were wearing the same outfit so it's easy to mix them up.


----------



## Tragedy

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> Artest was not physically assaulted. Weightless plastic cups a quarter full of beer does not qualify of as something that can possibly hurt another person. He was in no danger of being hurt, in any way other than discomfort from being wet, because 1 person threw 1 beer at him.
> 
> You are wrong. And exaggerating the reality of what happened to strengthen your side. I honestly can not engage in a conversation with someone that considers a plastic cup 1/4 full of beer as being dangerous.



like i said, blowing smoke in someone's face can be identified as assault. 

and if you dont want to look at it as assault, its provocation.

say someone spit in ur face, you just gonna wipe it off as though it was nothing? i mean the spit doesn't hurt right?

the matter is not what it is that was thrown, its that something was thrown. PERIOD.

If you cant understand that then... i wont even put the mods through the trouble of editing the rest.


----------



## goNBAjayhawks

That look from the first guy artest went after was priceless, i want a fat poster of that guys look when he see's the craziest person on earth coming after him.


----------



## spongyfungy

John Saunders was the one who said throwing beer bottle is assault.

it's not assault with a deadly weapon nevertheles, assault.


----------



## socco

The guy in the blue was trying to grab Artest!!! The guy Artest took out had a drink in his hand. But the guy in the blue had his hands in his pockets, I don't think it's realistic to think he threw it and then put his hands in his pockets, possible though. And I don't see any woman in the picture, so I don't know what that is about, I don't see a woman who could've thrown it.


----------



## Max Payne

> Originally posted by <b>Tragedy</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> like i said, blowing smoke in someone's face can be identified as assault.
> 
> and if you dont want to look at it as assault, its provocation.
> 
> say someone spit in ur face, you just gonna wipe it off as though it was nothing? i mean the spit doesn't hurt right?
> 
> the matter is not what it is that was thrown, its that something was thrown. PERIOD.
> 
> If you cant understand that then... i wont even put the mods through the trouble of editing the rest.


 Exactly...but I guess Mengtu will never get that...whatever man...he's not even worth wasting time arguing with...in fact I don't even think he'd understand legislative practices...


----------



## mofo202

> Originally posted by <b>deranged40</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, if you watch the video you'll notice that JO hits the wrong guy. The "right" guy is the round-pound in the black hat, and the guy taht O'Neal hit was his friend trying to break it up. They were wearing the same outfit so it's easy to mix them up.


I feel worse and worse for that guy every time I see that punch. I hope he's ok.


----------



## Debt Collector

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> The guy in the blue was trying to grab Artest!!! The guy Artest took out had a drink in his hand. But the guy in the blue had his hands in his pockets, I don't think it's realistic to think he threw it and then put his hands in his pockets, possible though. And I don't see any woman in the picture, so I don't know what that is about, I don't see a woman who could've thrown it.


the black chick with the pistons jersey on. she had her arm up as if she just perfectly threw that beer


----------



## Debt Collector

> Originally posted by <b>mofo202</b>!
> 
> 
> I feel worse and worse for that guy every time I see that punch. I hope he's ok.


no dont feel bad for that guy. he was on the court period


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>deranged40</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, if you watch the video you'll notice that JO hits the wrong guy. The "right" guy is the round-pound in the black hat, and the guy taht O'Neal hit was his friend trying to break it up. They were wearing the same outfit so it's easy to mix them up.


The guy in the brown suit hit that guy too. I don't know if it's an assistant coach or whatever, but he came in and punched that guy,the guy was complaining to him saying he didn't do anything, and then he gets hit on the other side by O'Neal. That guy didn't deserve to get hit, especially that hard.


----------



## spongyfungy

> Originally posted by <b>deranged40</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, if you watch the video you'll notice that JO hits the wrong guy. The "right" guy is the round-pound in the black hat, and the guy taht O'Neal hit was his friend trying to break it up. They were wearing the same outfit so it's easy to mix them up.


yeah you're but then they shouldn't have been on the court. 

they had detroit jerseys on maybe for a moment they thought they were delfino and darko.


----------



## deranged40

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> 
> The guy in the brown suit hit that guy too. I don't know if it's an assistant coach or whatever, but he came in and punched that guy,the guy was complaining to him saying he didn't do anything, and then he gets hit on the other side by O'Neal. That guy didn't deserve to get hit, especially that hard.


Yeah true, but then again he shouldn't have even been on the floor in that situation.


----------



## spongyfungy

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> 
> The guy in the brown suit hit that guy too. I don't know if it's an assistant coach or whatever, but he came in and punched that guy,the guy was complaining to him saying he didn't do anything, and then he gets hit on the other side by O'Neal. That guy didn't deserve to get hit, especially that hard.


yeah, who was he? he was pulled away by another person in red

The police officers were going to mace people who were holding the guys in jerseys. Reggie had to identify that he's a player (since he was in plain clothes)


----------



## DuckWorth

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> 
> He was trying to protect his friend who started a fight with Artest. He got hit by a coach or something, then was had a look on his face like "what are you doing, I didn't do anything" and then O'Neal nails him in the face and knocks him out.


How about protecting your friend by pulling said friend back into the stands and heading for the Exit? They were 10 minutes into this thing and this guy is standing on the court and wondering why he got decked. Plenty of time to not be on the court, not trying to protect a "friend," and not getting hit.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> 
> 
> the black chick with the pistons jersey on. she had her arm up as if she just perfectly threw that beer


I still don't see her.  



> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> 
> 
> no dont feel bad for that guy. he was on the court period


So the guy could get killed and it's all his fault because he was on the court trying to save his friend who started a fight with Artest? He definately shouldn't have been on the court, but that doens't make it ok for peopel to do whatever they want to him. :no:


----------



## mofo202

> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> 
> 
> no dont feel bad for that guy. he was on the court period


I'm not justifying him being on the court. But I'd feel bad for almost anyone who took that clean of a shot from a 6'11" athlete.


----------



## Ice Nine

I think there are three probable ways for the league office to resolve this situation:

#1 - Issue unilateral, lengthy suspensions against the Pacers. However, I doubt the NBA players association would tolerate this option and could protest by refusing to play games. Consider how furious former NBA players Greg Anthony and Tim Legler were tonight. Also consider that the Pistons, who were moments before on the brink of a brawl with the Pacers, climbed into the stands to go to the aid of Ron Artest & co. There is solidarity among players.

#2 - Token suspensions to all involved. This won't fly because the media loves to portray the NBA as a bunch of spoiled, ghetto thugs. Failure to properly discipline them will only stoke this stereotype.

#3 - Issue lengthy suspensions to both teams. Indiana's will serve as a warning to the players, Detroit's as a warning to the fans. I expect David Stern will opt for this.


----------



## mofo202

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> 
> I still don't see her.


I saw her on TV but i cant see her on the clip.


----------



## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Those fans should go to jail, and out of all the players, I think Wallace should get the longest suspension.


That’s absurd.


----------



## Midnight_Marauder

The more I see this the more I notice.....

How about that fat jerk with the credentials around his neck taking shots at Fred Jones in the back of the head......WTF....


----------



## JNice

The dude absolutely should not have been on the court.

That being said, he wasn't posing a threat to anyone out there and especially not Jermaine Oneal who was many feet away and got a running start for his right hook to the guy's head.


----------



## BG7

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> 
> 
> You might be right - to the video replay we go.


I think I pointed this out first  

But look at it though.









The guy is taken down so weakly, and Artest looks focused on the guy that the ESPN courtside announcer who actually threw the beer. I really think that was accidental, because if Artest meant to he would of taken a huge lunging punch on his fall and take the guy out. 

Stephen Jackson was out of line in this fight the most. Also Jamaal Tinsley coming out of the lockerroom with the dust pan is classic. 

Ron Artest is going to get a huge suspension, probaly between 8-10 games because its Ron Artest. Everything looked worse then they really were for Artest.

People are really overblowing Ben Wallace too. He just had a regular fight starter. That is usually 1-3 games max. Not 5 or 10 or whatever idiots are saying. I doubt Artest and stuff are out until the allstar break.


----------



## SoCalfan21

DETROIT FANS SUCK!!! PERIOD


----------



## naptownpimp

iiiiiiiif season long suspensions were made which would be the MOST OBSURD THING EVER

am i the only one who thinks a strike would be fitting?

it probably wouldnt happen but i mean come on

tell me how many nba stars wouldnt have done what artest did, there is only so much you can take, he took it from wallace, took it from the pistons, and was being calm, and that wasnt enough for the drunk piston fans? come on now


----------



## mofo202

> Originally posted by <b>DuckWorth</b>!
> 
> 
> How about protecting your friend by pulling said friend back into the stands and heading for the Exit? They were 10 minutes into this thing and this guy is standing on the court and wondering why he got decked. Plenty of time to not be on the court, not trying to protect a "friend," and not getting hit.


Accually, I think it happened right as he was getting up because he fell while defending his friend. He _didn't_ have time.


----------



## #1BucksFan

I would have paid millions of dollars to be in the same room as David Stern when he first saw this. He must have wanted a change of pants.

Anyone else notice that the big guy in the grey sweatshirt that beat down Fred Jones was consoling the crying kid?


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>deranged40</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah true, but then again he shouldn't have even been on the floor in that situation.


He was definately wrong for being on teh floor, but you still have to feel for the guy.



> Originally posted by <b>DuckWorth</b>!
> 
> 
> How about protecting your friend by pulling said friend back into the stands and heading for the Exit? They were 10 minutes into this thing and this guy is standing on the court and wondering why he got decked. Plenty of time to not be on the court, not trying to protect a "friend," and not getting hit.


*edited* It was like 2 or at most 3 minutes into it. He wasn't ok to be on the court, but that doens't make it ok for the players to do whatever they wanted to do to him.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

Alright. So some are convinced that what the fan did (throwing beer) is considered assault. I am not 100% convinced, but I will assume your right.

This can still be irrelevant.

My question is? Does this type of assault, then allow Artest or other players to use self-defence as a reason for their actions?

Even if he was assaulted in this way, does it legally allow him to attack another individual? 

I think that is the key here. And I don't think the answer would be legally favourable to Artest when the circumstance is considered. Not a legal expert - so what are your thoughts. 

Self-Defence argument would require that you are in danger would it not - and while he was assaulted Artest was hardly in danger. 

Thoughts?


----------



## Midnight_Marauder

> Originally posted by <b>#1BucksFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Anyone else notice that the big guy in the grey sweatshirt that beat down Fred Jones was consoling the crying kid?


Yeah that was the guy with the credentials around his neck.....someone that big had to be security or something...


----------



## HKF

My take after waking up and seeing the clips.

Stupid ****ing fans. You don't throw **** at the players. That started it. Artest and Wallace weren't going to fight. Fans threw junk onto the court.

I applaud Stephen Jackson because these ****in punks got what they deserved, for throwing ****. Idiot. I would have done the same stuff.

The two fans who actually came on the court and approached Artest and then got punched in the face by Artest, JO and Person, good for their asses too. This was crazy and...

Detroit continues to reign supreme in unruly fan behavior. Disgraceful. :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: 

****in fans, stay off the court and don't throw ****.


----------



## SoCalfan21

I SAY THAT DETROIT HAS TO FORFIT LIKE 3 OF ITS GAMES BECAUSE OF TONITE ITS ALL CAUSE OF THAT DAMN BEN WALLACE THAT THIS HAPPENED


----------



## MLKG

Okay here is the by the book definition of assault taken straight from criminal justices courses I have had.

Assault: An attempt or offer with force or violence to do bodily injury to another with that apparent present means of doing so. (Misdemeanor)

It can be argued either way that tossing a cup of soda does not constitute a violent attempt to do bodily injury. Choking out a fan does.

Aggravated Assault: An assult (see above) without a weapon where serious or aggravated injury is inflicted. (High misdemeanor- up to 1 year $1000 fine)

Jermaine O'Neal was not provoked into punching that guy. He could get into big trouble with this one.

-------------

Now my opinions.

ESPN is pretty dispicable with their coverage on this one. 

There is no way in hell you absolve Ron Artest from this one. IN NO SITUATION EVER EVER EVER EVER DO YOU TAKE FIGHT INTO THE STANDS. EVER!!!!!!!!

Why? Because it's starts ****ing riots.

Say Ron Artest IS justified in taking his fight into the stands. What if he goes after the wrong guy! What if he hits an innocent bystander. How do you know exactly who hit you? What are the fans around you supposed to do when you go into the stands.

It is completely wrong to say every player would have reacted the same way Artest did? How do we know this is wrong, because this is not the first time a player has been hit with a beverage. 

There is a very defined line when it comes to player fan interaction. If you are a fan you do NOT go onto the floor. If you are a player you do NOT go into the stands. 

There is security in the stands to take care of situations like this one, taking care of it yourself only escalates the situation.

ESPN is being completely irresponsible. Just because beating up a fan is what THEY would have done it does NOT make the RIGHT thing to do.

-------------

New point.

One of the more dispicable aspects of this terrible situation is the reaction of people around the country. The notion that this is somehow a "Detroit" problem, the notion that any fans in the NBA wouldn't have done the EXACT same thing in the same situaion.

Think about it. Jermaine O'Neal, Ron Artest, and Stephen Jackson beat the HELL out of several fans in front of 20000 people. Is this surprising that they got a beer a shower as they left the court?

Does anybody HONESTLY think that any crowd in America wouldn't have reacted the same way after witnissing the same situation.

I am NOT defending the actions or saying it's right. My point is when you take a fight into the stands and get fans involved, this is GOING to happen. Fans need to realize that players are people too and they will react to threats, but players also have to realize that fans are people too and they too are going to react to threats- only there are a LOT more fans than there are players. Even if as a player your beef is only with one person, you HAVE to realize that beating up a fan IS going to start a riot, no matter what arena, in what city, in what country you are in.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> 
> People are really overblowing Ben Wallace too. He just had a regular fight starter. That is usually 1-3 games max. Not 5 or 10 or whatever idiots are saying. I doubt Artest and stuff are out until the allstar break.


I disagree. He didn't just start it, the man was completely out of control. It's like Artest slept with his wife or something. He started it, but then he continued to go crazy. Artest backs away from him, he charges Artest. Artest sits on the scorers table, Wallace throws a towel at him. He was way out of line.


----------



## Fracture

That JO punch was the greatest punch ever thrown on an NBA court.


----------



## Tersk

JO nailed this guy, he's gone for a while. There goes my prediction of Pacers as champs


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>mofo202</b>!
> 
> 
> I saw her on TV but i cant see her on the clip.


I saw her now. I think the cup came from too high of a trajectory though for it to be from her.


----------



## BG7

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> Alright. So some are convinced that what the fan did (throwing beer) is considered assault. I am not 100% convinced, but I will assume your right.
> 
> This can still be irrelevant.
> 
> My question is? Does this type of assault, then allow Artest or other players to use self-defence as a reason for their actions?
> 
> Even if he was assaulted in this way, does it legally allow him to attack another individual?
> 
> I think that is the key here. And I don't think the answer would be legally favourable to Artest when the circumstance is considered. Not a legal expert - so what are your thoughts.
> 
> Self-Defence argument would require that you are in danger would it not - and while he was assaulted Artest was hardly in danger.
> 
> Thoughts?


I don't know how this one would work out to be honest. I guess it depends on the lawyers, judge, and jury. Self defense can be used to overcome the danger a person is in, and no more force should be used as needed. It really depends on the lawyers, judge, and jury that are part of the case.


----------



## mofo202

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> My take after waking up and seeing the clips.
> 
> Stupid ****ing fans. You don't throw **** at the players. That started it. Artest and Wallace weren't going to fight. Fans threw junk onto the court.
> 
> I applaud Stephen Jackson because these ****in punks got what they deserved, for throwing ****. Idiot. I would have done the same stuff.
> 
> The two fans who actually came on the court and approached Artest and then got punched in the face by Artest, JO and Person, good for their asses too. This was crazy and...
> 
> Detroit continues to reign supreme in unruly fan behavior. Disgraceful. :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset:
> 
> ****in fans, stay off the court and don't throw ****.


Exactly what I thought when I first saw it, but wait a while man. It's a total mess and you really gotta analyze.


----------



## DuckWorth

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> 
> He was definately wrong for being on teh floor, but you still have to feel for the guy.
> 
> 
> *edited* It was like 2 or at most 3 minutes into it. He wasn't ok to be on the court, but that doens't make it ok for the players to do whatever they wanted to do to him.


*edited* The point is to not be on the court at all, with a friend or not. You are only asking for trouble being out there, so should I feel sorry for him?!? Hell no.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>DuckWorth</b>!
> 
> 
> *edited* The point is to not be on the court at all, with a friend or not. You are only asking for trouble being out there, so should I feel sorry for him?!? Hell no.


So a guy gets killed just because he was standing on a basketball court. *edited* about you saying it was 10 minutes into it, it was 2 or at most 3 minutes. It shows you're obviously not looking at it objectively.


----------



## BG7

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> 
> I disagree. He didn't just start it, the man was completely out of control. It's like Artest slept with his wife or something. He started it, but then he continued to go crazy. Artest backs away from him, he charges Artest. Artest sits on the scorers table, Wallace throws a towel at him. He was way out of line.


Well Brendan Haywood got a suspension of 3 games for starting the Bulls preseason fight. He was running like a crazy mofo too, and he restarted the fight by punching AD. You have to take out what happened afterwards, and just look at what would happen if Ben Wallace did this and it just broke out into a player fight.


----------



## mofo202

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> 
> I saw her now. I think the cup came from too high of a trajectory though for it to be from her.


Well if she shot it like a basketball (since she was holding out that follow thru) it might have had some serious arc.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> 
> 
> Well Brendan Haywood got a suspension of 3 games for starting the Bulls preseason fight. He was running like a crazy mofo too, and he restarted the fight by punching AD. You have to take out what happened afterwards, and just look at what would happen if Ben Wallace did this and it just broke out into a player fight.


What Wallace did was way worse than Haywood, even not considering what happened with the fans.


----------



## JRose5

> Originally posted by <b>mofo202</b>!
> 
> 
> Well if she shot it like a basketball (since she was holding out that follow thru) it might have had some serious arc.


:laugh: 

I'm glad in the middle of the melee she remembered to tuck the elbow and follow through.


----------



## BigMike

> That JO punch was the greatest punch ever thrown on an NBA court.



No way. The one Kermit threw that almost killed Rudy T was. 

I'm not saying it was great as in good, just great as in crazy...


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>mofo202</b>!
> 
> 
> Well if she shot it like a basketball (since she was holding out that follow thru) it might have had some serious arc.


I guess, looked like it was thrown pretty hard too, I don't know. They got a punch of angles we didn't see, so hopefully we'll find out eventually.


----------



## Pioneer10

My 2 cents:

Don't know how many people noticed this but Wallace actually threw a towel after the initial breakup at Artest.

Artest didn't look like he threw any punches at the initial guy. Just went after somebody in the direction of the beer cup and pinned. His first punch it looked like to me was at that f**** idiot guy in the cap who started punching him in the head. Artest should have not gone in the stands no doubt about it but can't say I don't blame him though

What the hell was Stephen Jackson doing. He can protect his friend/teammate without going wildly after people.

Fred Jones got suckered punched early by some huge fat dude leading him to come back with that dust bin at the end.

JO man don't know what to say about that: he could've killed that dude - went Kermit Washington on that fan

Those fans had no business on the court and what was up with the chairs?

Still can't believe all this [edit] happened out there


----------



## mofo202

> Originally posted by <b>JRose5</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> 
> I'm glad in the middle of the melee she remembered to tuck the elbow and follow through.


If it wasn't for the follow through, this all might not have strted in the first place. She might have just hit some guy in the 1st row.


----------



## Tragedy

> Originally posted by <b>mofo202</b>!
> 
> 
> Well if she shot it like a basketball (since she was holding out that follow thru) it might have had some serious arc.



shot a cup? like a basketball? serious arc?


lmao. if she did that, the cup would have spilled out before it reaches artest and it would have been more of a toss, when it was actually thrown right at him


----------



## speedythief

I don't think I've ever sat down and read 600 posts straight. I should get an award for going from post 1 to here.  


The following is all IMHO and I won't call anyone stupid or a liar for disagreeing with me!


Ben Wallace did more than pancake Artest. He followed-through, chased Artest, wouldn't allow himself to be restrained, and continued to try to fight with Artest when Ron evaded him and went to the table. Wallace will get a suspension for the shove and a suspension for chasing Artest around and trying to fight him. I expect it will be three or four for the pancake, three or four more for the pursuit. So six to ten games, maybe?

Artest was out of line when he charged into the stands. It's easy to sit back and say that the guy who threw the bottle deserves to be beaten down, but that's what security is for. Artest is untrustworthy. For him to charge up into the stands and brawl with fans is intolerable. I expect him to be suspended for tens of games, whether we like it or not, especially given his history of rage. Add to this his attack on another courtside fan, who didn't deserve to be punched just because he was standing on the court. Standing on the hardwood doesn't make you a free target. Few players in the NBA would start another fight after the initial melee was starting to settle. I expect Artest to be gone for at least twenty games, possibly for the season. No doubt he was the catalyst for tonight's shameful transgressions.

Stephen Jackson is going to get suspended for the random violence he created in the stands. He was swinging at everything, and was clearly out of control when teammates and company tried to hold him back. Tens of games for him, too, if not the season. IMO, he was the biggest punk in this brawl. He was like one of those guys at the bar who just looks for an excuse to start eyeballing and pressing-up on guys. Just seeking a rukus. My level of respect for Jackson was shaky before; it's just hit rock-bottom.

Jermaine O'Neal is going to get suspended firstly for jumping into the stands, secondly for ****hammering that unsuspecting fan courtside. This is a huge attack that was captured clearly on video and will be replayed over and over in the eyes of league officials. O'Neal may get charged for that punch. He was trying to fight the fan that Artest was mixing it up with and wound-up mistaking him for another fan. He hit that man so hard he could've killed him, honestly. Tens of games for O'Neal, too, if not the whole season.

The fans involved, the fighters who did more than just defend themselves, will probably a) be banned for life from the Palace, b) be banned for life from all NBA and NBA-sponsored events, and c) be charged criminally for assault and mischef/vandalism etc..



Wow.


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>~~~</b>!
> 
> 
> You do not attack fans period no matter what they do to you. I do not really agree with that but that's how it is and always will be.


*edited: No personal attacks* Fans step over the line, you check them. Plain and simple.


----------



## futuristxen

You know what. I'm glad those Pistons fans got that. Too many fans think they can just do whatever the **** they want from the safety of their seats. Suddenly things got very real very quick for them.

What the **** was fat boy ****** doing on the court at the end there? Did he think he was going to take down Artest? Seeing piggy get clocked by JO was one of the greatest things of this season.

Fans have to remember, that just because you pay money to see these guys, they aren't ****ing animals. They are people just like you. Show some ****ing humanity.

And beer should not be sold after halftime.


----------



## mofo202

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> 
> 
> What the hell was Stephen Jackson doing. He can protect his friend/teammate without going wildly after people.


Yeah, honestly. What the **** is wrong with him? He was just out there to be a toughguy. What an idiot.


----------



## sMaK

Holy ****

By far the craziest thing I have ever seen.


----------



## LuolDeng

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> leading him to come back with that dust bin at the end.


That was Tinsley.


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>DuckWorth</b>!
> 
> 
> No, you shut up. The point is to not be on the court at all, with a friend or not. You are only asking for trouble being out there, so should I feel sorry for him?!? Hell no.


On one hand you condemn a fan for coming on the floor to help his friend who got hit by Artest. But people praise Stephen Jackson for coming into the stands to protect his friend who got hit by a fan?

How is what Stephen Jackson did any different from what the guy JO hit did?


----------



## mofo202

> Originally posted by <b>Tragedy</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> shot a cup? like a basketball? serious arc?
> 
> 
> lmao. if she did that, the cup would have spilled out before it reaches artest and it would have been more of a toss, when it was actually thrown right at him


Yeah, I guess I really didn't give the reality of it that much thought. I just thought it was funny.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>mofo202</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, honestly. What the **** is wrong with him? He was just out there to be a toughguy. What an idiot.


He's a [edit] punk. The guy is a loser. He's the only guy on that team that I really don't like. He thinks he's gangsta.


----------



## Debt Collector

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> On one hand you condemn a fan for coming on the floor to help his friend who got hit by Artest. But people praise Stephen Jackson for coming into the stands to protect his friend who got hit by a fan?
> 
> How is what Stephen Jackson did any different from what the guy JO hit did?



easy. too easy... artest goes in the stands. other dudes gravitate towards artest. jackson snaps and defends his teamates.


two idiots. have NOTHING to do with anything wander onto the floor to pick a fight with artest. the guy wasnt defending his friend he was looking for trouble


----------



## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

> Originally posted by <b>~~~</b>!
> 
> 
> You do not attack fans period no matter what they do to you. I do not really agree with that but that's how it is and always will be.


hmmm....let's use rationale here....you say "attack", I say "defend"....

what should Monica Seles have done had she known she was about to get stabbed in the back??

what should the Chicago WhiteSox first base coach have done had he known he was going to be beat down??

:yes:


----------



## Weasel

The was one of the craziest basketball fights ever. I saw it live on tv and its reply about 10 times and its just crazy every time. I expect some serious suspensions to be laid down shortly.


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> What the **** was fat boy ****** doing on the court at the end there?


Don't lower yourself to the level that so many NBA fans already have today.


----------



## HKF

Speedythief you are wrong. 100% wrong. That's all I'm going to say on that.


----------



## MLKG

Speedy Thief I think you are 100% right.

Latrell Sprewell got a season for choking his coach. Choking out a fan is 10x worse than attacking your coach.

I swear to God I would not be surprised to see a life time ban handed out.


----------



## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Okay here is the by the book definition of assault taken straight from criminal justices courses I have had.
> 
> Assault: An attempt or offer with force or violence to do bodily injury to another with that apparent present means of doing so. (Misdemeanor)
> 
> It can be argued either way that tossing a cup of soda does not constitute a violent attempt to do bodily injury. Choking out a fan does.
> 
> Aggravated Assault: An assult (see above) without a weapon where serious or aggravated injury is inflicted. (High misdemeanor- up to 1 year $1000 fine)
> 
> Jermaine O'Neal was not provoked into punching that guy. He could get into big trouble with this one.
> 
> -------------
> 
> Now my opinions.
> 
> *ESPN is pretty dispicable with their coverage on this one. *
> 
> There is no way in hell you absolve Ron Artest from this one. IN NO SITUATION EVER EVER EVER EVER DO YOU TAKE FIGHT INTO THE STANDS. EVER!!!!!!!!
> 
> Why? Because it's starts ****ing riots.
> 
> Say Ron Artest IS justified in taking his fight into the stands. What if he goes after the wrong guy! What if he hits an innocent bystander. How do you know exactly who hit you? What are the fans around you supposed to do when you go into the stands.
> 
> It is completely wrong to say every player would have reacted the same way Artest did? How do we know this is wrong, because this is not the first time a player has been hit with a beverage.
> 
> There is a very defined line when it comes to player fan interaction. If you are a fan you do NOT go onto the floor. If you are a player you do NOT go into the stands.
> 
> There is security in the stands to take care of situations like this one, taking care of it yourself only escalates the situation.
> 
> ESPN is being completely irresponsible. Just because beating up a fan is what THEY would have done it does NOT make the RIGHT thing to do.
> 
> -------------
> 
> New point.
> 
> One of the more dispicable aspects of this terrible situation is the reaction of people around the country. The notion that this is somehow a "Detroit" problem, the notion that any fans in the NBA wouldn't have done the EXACT same thing in the same situaion.
> 
> Think about it. Jermaine O'Neal, Ron Artest, and Stephen Jackson beat the HELL out of several fans in front of 20000 people. Is this surprising that they got a beer a shower as they left the court?
> 
> Does anybody HONESTLY think that any crowd in America wouldn't have reacted the same way after witnissing the same situation.
> 
> I am NOT defending the actions or saying it's right. My point is when you take a fight into the stands and get fans involved, this is GOING to happen. Fans need to realize that players are people too and they will react to threats, but players also have to realize that fans are people too and they too are going to react to threats- only there are a LOT more fans than there are players. Even if as a player your beef is only with one person, you HAVE to realize that beating up a fan IS going to start a riot, no matter what arena, in what city, in what country you are in.


I agree (especially with the highlighted).

I recall a very similar incident taking place at a Blazers/ Warriors game in which Rasheed Wallace went into the stands following a fan who threw a cup of beer at him.

He threw no punches and was never suspended (though Bonzi Wells was). Cameras showed fans pouring beer and spitting on Blazer players as they ran into the tunnel.

ESPN coverage then was on how ugly the incident was and how regardless of circumstance Rasheed was wrong because "no matter what... a player should never enter the stands". 

The entire tone of things was along the lines of:
_Oh… those wacky Blazers (in trouble again)._ 

Interesting how perceptions change depending on the media darling involved.


----------



## sMaK

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> What the **** was fat boy ****** doing on the court at the end there?


He was caught up in the moment just like everyone else was. You dont know how you are gonna react when some crazy **** like that goes down.


----------



## HKF

And told RP McMurphy, that the fans act in unison during riots. I told you. It's like everyone acts with one brain. This is why I don't go to many NBA games (at least as much as I should), because I would be fighting in the stands with these yahoos too.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Speedy Thief I think you are 100% right.
> 
> Latrell Sprewell got a season for choking his coach. Choking out a fan is 10x worse than attacking your coach.
> 
> I swear to God I would not be surprised to see a life time ban handed out.


You are way off, WAY OFF. There is absolutely no way in the world there would be even a season ban, not a chance in the world. You're out of your mind. I'd like to think it's not just because you're a Pistons fan, but that's how it's looking right now with how off your opinion is.


----------



## Midnight_Marauder

I hope people learned one thing out of this......dont pick a fight with a professional athelete......you won't win.....I am sure there was a lot of liquid courage involved tonight


----------



## HKF

*edited: Do not attack entire fanbases*


----------



## sMaK

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> And told RP McMurphy, that the fans act in unison during riots. I told you. It's like everyone acts with one brain. This is why I don't go to many NBA games (at least as much as I should), because I would be fighting in the stands with these yahoos too.


Excactly put yourself in one of those fans' shoes.


----------



## Tyrellaphonte

those ***** *** fans got wat they deserved imo. What did they expect? for the pacers to just let them pour **** on them? Please. The fans were just as much punks as stephen jackson was. Even when everyone was walking off the court, people were pourin sprite on JO and tinsley and them. That **** aint right. They needed to get in check.


----------



## Brady00

Some players need to be commended for what they did.
Rasheed Wallace- Surprisingly, reacted very calmly and tried to stop fans from fighting.
David Harrison- Litterally threw the hot head Jackson away from some of the fans.
Freddie Jones- A guy sucker punched him and he ducked and pushed the guy away.


----------



## JRose5

I haven't read through all 600 replies, as I just came in a few minute ago, so I don't know how many people have mentioned this, but watching the replay on ESPNews, how about Larry Brown?

The guy had an artificial hip put in like weeks ago, and he's out there in the middle of it, telling his players to shut the hell up and gp to the locker room.

I was never a big fan of him before, but you got to respect that.


----------



## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> *edited*


Yep. I agree to agree with you here. I've got no love for the mob mentality.


----------



## Weasel

Do you think somehow the Detroit fans will be punished?
I have seen it done in soccer where no fans were let into the stadium, the game was played with an empty stadium.


----------



## Brady00

Did you see the woman on the ground and the kids crying this is not only a sad day in sports a sad day in this nation.


----------



## sMaK

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Yep. I agree to agree with you here. I've got no love for the mob mentality.


*edited: No personal attacks* The Detroit fans acted pretty ***** up tonight, but the same **** would have happened any where else.


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> *edited*


I didn't know I had fans.

Everyone who tried starting something with a player and got hit absolutely got what they deserved. That doesn't make it right. Why? Because in dishing out the justice that some INDIVIDUALS no doubt deserved Ron Artest started a riot and scarred the NBA. 

Now THAT is not right.


----------



## speedythief

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Speedythief you are wrong. 100% wrong. That's all I'm going to say on that.


C'mon, don't leave me in suspense. At least tell me what you think I'm wrong on.


----------



## futuristxen

You see **** like this in any crowd you go to. You go to a concert, there's *******s there who think they can just do whatever the **** they want to.

I love the reality check on these *******s.


----------



## Yao Mania

Props goes out to Reggie Miller too, he did a heck of a job getting Artest off the court after his last punch. The police was about to pepper spray Artest if Reggie wan't there! What a great leader.


----------



## 1 Penny

Saw the game...

Saw the replay and analysis on Sportscenter.

My predictions on the punishments/consequences.

-Jermaine O'neal will face assault, he decked a guy while the guy was on the floor, after trying subdue Artest from beating his friend up. The guy flew 3- feet, Jermaine even slipped as he punched the guy. Thats assault, and the guy have the right to sue, even though he was not meant to be on court. He was on the ground, evidence will show that he wasnt throwing punches, but you can see clearly Jermaine O'neal running from the side and cracking him on the face. 


-Those 3-4 detroit fans who got involved are young punks, who are typical hecklers. Its a shame that the pistons fan base will be judged severely based on those few.

-Ben Wallace, will get suspended for pushing and shoving, thats it. He didnt instigate for the crowd to do that. If anything that instigated anything its Artest laying down on the announcers table where he was displaying the wrong signs towards the emotionally charged fans. But its more complex than that since any normal fans wouldnt do what those punks did.

-Stephen Jackson was looking for a fight, as most stated. I watched it over and over. He was just looking for anyong to throw a punch in. I suspect he will get suspended 10+ games easily, plus he is liable for any assault charges since he just threw punches without being provoked. You can't really say self defense when Artest was the guy involve and a teammate just going rokus non the background hitting anyone near, without clear reasons to.


-As someone stated, the NBA, and Stern will make a strong case about this, they will set examples out of everyone who got involved. Artest could be gone for 20+ games plus a huge fine and a risk of assault charges and liable to be sued.

Stephen Jackson will be charged assault, and he will be fined heavily, even more so than Artest.

Jermaine O'neal will be fined, liable for assault and a law suit. That punch he landed right in front of the camera and national TV. That was vicious, what made it worst was the guy he punched wasnt even the guy who provoked Artest, he slipped and was yelling at someone when all of a sudden JO just lunged at him with a closed fist. 

Every player who left the court and went into the crowd will be fined and suspended. NBA cant have thugs on court fighting fans when things heat up, they are professionals and Stern wont care about anything but to restrain firm control.


----------



## Debt Collector

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> You see **** like this in any crowd you go to. You go to a concert, there's *******s there who think they can just do whatever the **** they want to.
> 
> I love the reality check on these *******s.


one year i went to Summerjam in LA and right in the middle of LL Cool J 's performance the crips and bloods start BRAWLING, im talking hundreds of fools throwing blows, throwing chairs and beer, they got up on the stage and started brawling, it was crazy. we all had to book it out of there we literally got chased out by the gang members


----------



## Tragedy

> Originally posted by <b>sMaKDiSDoWn</b>!
> 
> 
> *edited* The Detroit fans acted pretty ***** up tonight, but the same **** would have happened any where else.



not necessarily.

that assumption may be true if you are talking about the reactions AFTER the beer was thrown, but its unfair to assume that a beer would be thrown anywhere else.


----------



## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>sMaKDiSDoWn</b>!
> 
> 
> *edited* The Detroit fans acted pretty ***** up tonight, but the same **** would have happened any where else.


Oh, I'm not saying it's just Detroit fans. These people are everywhere at sporting events and concerts. Liquid courage mother****ers with no respect.

When Artest rushed those guys, it was like he was rushing every dumbass I've seen at major events who thought they could just do whatever they wanted because they were a part of the crowd.

Artest and JO just got a special place in my heart.

Stephen Jackson...well I think Stephen Jackson was out of his ****ing mind. Moreso than anyone else.


----------



## BG7

Lol at fat piggy on the court. He made a move at Artest, and then stopped realizing what **** he was getting into and at that time it was too late and he got popped by Artest.

How can anyone thing a player should just stand there and get **** thrown at them. I probaly if I was on the Pacers would of just walked in the lockeroom. But I aint very strong so I wouldn't be all up in there like that. Jackson, and Artest are two of the strongest players in the league, and if I was one of them it would be a lot differenct because they have the power to fight, and not get hurt from anything the fans did.

The fans were classless, and there is no excuse for that. Say what you want, but the bottomline is that the fans involved got what was coming to them.


----------



## deranged40

> Originally posted by <b>JRose5</b>!
> I haven't read through all 600 replies, as I just came in a few minute ago, so I don't know how many people have mentioned this, but watching the replay on ESPNews, how about Larry Brown?
> 
> The guy had an artificial hip put in like weeks ago, and he's out there in the middle of it, telling his players to shut the hell up and gp to the locker room.
> 
> I was never a big fan of him before, but you got to respect that.


Did you see/hear his post-game press-conference? I don't remember the exact quote, but he said something like "I've never seen anything like this before, well at least not in this league. Back in the ABA this happened all the time." Then he just cracked this little smirk and all the reporters started laughing. I don't know I just thought it was funny as ****. :laugh:


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>sMaKDiSDoWn</b>!
> 
> 
> *edited* The Detroit fans acted pretty ***** up tonight, but the same **** would have happened any where else.


That's complete BS and I am very offended by that. You think everywhere tehre would be a fan throwing stuff at players during a game? Hell no. Sacramento and Denver threw stuff on the floor in the playoffs last year, but it was after the game, it was totally different. This type of thing would not happen anywhere, you're completely out of your mind.




> Originally posted by <b>Brady00</b>!
> Some players need to be commended for what they did.
> Rasheed Wallace- Surprisingly, reacted very calmly and tried to stop fans from fighting.
> David Harrison- Litterally threw the hot head Jackson away from some of the fans.
> Freddie Jones- A guy sucker punched him and he ducked and pushed the guy away.


Completely agreed. Sheed was yellin at the Pacers earlier, that was not good, but he didn't get into the fighting, and actually was breaking things up. Harrison did a good thing trying to get Jackson out of there, Jackson was way out of line, that guy needs some help. Jones was in there trying to stop Artest and Jackson, and he gets hit by some fat *** with a media pass no and still I don't think he ever tried to hit anybody. I think Artest needs to be commended for what he did in the first part. I was shocked that he just stood back and did nothing. But there's nothing to commend for what he did later. He was always reacting to something that fans did to him, but that's still no excuse.


----------



## jvanbusk

Not only should Jermaine O'Neal be suspended for many, many games he should spend time in the slammer.


----------



## sMaK

Anyone read that thread "Biggest Thug in the NBA"? Some one made it today.

I remember some one posted that Stephen Jackson was the biggest thug. Kudos to you!


----------



## JuniorNoboa

Who was more embarassed tonight - the fat guy who got smoked or UNC fans who talked smack all summer long.

Santa Clara - LMAO!


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

I think its wrong what the fans have done but REMEMBER that ARTEST is not an ANGEL. Remember the camera accident, and all the other accidents which Artest just goes nuts because he is a nutt case. He shouldn't be allowed to play in the NBA. Simple as that. :twocents:

Also Stephen Jackson should get more than 10 games suspension because the whole time even before the fan threw the bottle he was trying to fight with anyone he could. :nonono:


----------



## J19

Jackson was protecting his teammate


----------



## sMaK

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Not only should Jermaine O'Neal be suspended for many, many games he should spend time in the slammer.


For punching a guy?


----------



## MarioChalmers

*edited: Do not attack entire fanbases*


----------



## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>1 Penny</b>!
> NBA cant have thugs on court fighting fans when things heat up,


The only thugs I saw were fighting players in the stands.


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> I love the reality check on these *******s.


In an isolated incident, it's justice. A guy comes up to you on the street, throws a drink at you, and you beat him up. I agree with that.

But this is NOT an ordinary situation. You have to look at it from the standpoint of what is best for the greater good.

There were 20000 people in the arena. I would be 90% of them didn't see the cup hit Artest. All they saw was Artest and Stephen Jackson charging fans in the stands. At this point they have the same mentality as the Pacers players: "THEY are attacking US we have to protect our own".

That's why what might be right on the street is not right in a situation like this. You attack a member of a large group of people in the wrong situation and a riot insues.

Look at it no other way, Artest may have given that fan what he deserves, but he started a riot in the process. There is no defending that.


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

Artest claims it was self defense gimme a freaking break that cup wasnt gonna cause a damn bit of damage to him and he flipped like he does alot and went haywire!

And Stephen Jackson should be suspended for life! After the pushing by the teams he talks crap to Coleman and acts like he wants to fight and then he is right behind Artest into the stands and punches the dude who poured some liquid on Artest.

Gimme a break and O'Neal punches the guy that didnt even fight with Artest he saw his friend go after Artest and Artest clocked his pal so he tried to basically push artest back so he didnt clock his friend again and JO jumps in an lights the guy up. 

All three I am sure will be sued and rightfully so!




> For punching a guy?


Uh yeah its called assault! Ever heard of it!


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> Look at it no other way, Artest may have given that fan what he deserves, but he started a riot in the process. There is no defending that.


:greatjob::greatjob::greatjob::greatjob:

I totally agree with you.


----------



## sMaK

SI.com : Artest should be kicked out of the league.


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> Artest claims it was self defense gimme a freaking break that cup wasnt gonna cause a damn bit of damage to him and he flipped like he does alot and went haywire!
> 
> And Stephen Jackson should be suspended for life! After the pushing by the teams he talks crap to Coleman and acts like he wants to fight and then he is right behind Artest into the stands and punches the dude who poured some liquid on Artest.
> 
> Gimme a break and O'Neal punches the guy that didnt even fight with Artest he saw his friend go after Artest and Artest clocked his pal so he tried to basically push artest back so he didnt clock his friend again and JO jumps in an lights the guy up.
> 
> All three I am sure will be sued and rightfully so!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uh yeah its called assault! Ever heard of it!


I also agree with you on every word that you said.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>DaUnbreakableKinG</b>!
> I think its wrong what the fans have done but REMEMBER that ARTEST is not an ANGEL. Remember the camera accident, and all the other accidents which Artest just goes nuts because he is a nutt case. He shouldn't be allowed to play in the NBA. Simple as that. :twocents:
> 
> Also Stephen Jackson should get more than 10 games suspension because the whole time even before the fan threw the bottle he was trying to fight with anyone he could. :nonono:


REally, Artest isn't an angel? No ****! Almost everything you hear about Artest is about how he's messed up. Everybody knows Artest is a nut case, nobody has forgotten that and actually that's one of the biggest topics in basketball even before tonight. But it's just stupid to say he shouldnt' be in the NBA. He has a temper, yeah, but that was just a stupid comment, it's as simple as that.

And yeah Jackson is a freaking thug. He should get the biggest suspension of all players.





> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Not only should Jermaine O'Neal be suspended for many, many games he should spend time in the slammer.


No more than 20 game suspension, but yes he does deserve to be in jail. Jackson maybe as well.


----------



## irishfury

You all forget that Celtic fans also through beer at Artest Tisk Tisk Tisk


----------



## mofo202

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> Jackson was protecting his teammate


Yeah, and this was a regular NBA game.


----------



## JRose5

Legler says Dumars is ridiculous for saying that no one should be absolved.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> 
> Uh yeah its called assault! Ever heard of it!


What the fan did was assault too.


----------



## sMaK

BTW

The look on the fan that Artest went after was priceless.

He was like, "What!? What!? OH ****!"


----------



## BG7

I think punishment for these guys would to be put on a losing team. I say Jackson, Artest, and O'neal get put on the Bulls.

PG-Kirk Hinrich/Ben Gordon
SG-Stephen Jackson/Luol Deng
SF-Ron Artest/Andres Nocioni
PF-Jermaine O'neal/Tyson Chandler
C- Eddy Curry/Tyson Chandler

Fair punishment, I think so.


----------



## texan

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Not only should Jermaine O'Neal be suspended for many, many games he should spend time in the slammer.


Although the punch was unneccessary, that comment was completely absurd. Spend time in the slammer? Honestly? The guy was on the court, somewhere he wasnt supposed to be, and in a full-scale brawl like that, you just punch anyone you find. I see a 1-5 game suspension for him. He deserves nothing more.

PS- THis fight makes Milton Bradley look like an angel!:laugh:


----------



## Yao Mania

> Originally posted by <b>sMaKDiSDoWn</b>!
> SI.com : Artest should be kicked out of the league.


That's complete BS, I have no respect whatsoever for the punk that wrote that crap. 



> At no time during that possession did Artest make any kind of play on the basketball. What he did was purposefully shove Wallace in the back and take a swipe with his off hand at the back of his head.


That really pissed me off... if you know nothing about basketball don't say anything about it. The moron just doesn't like Artest. Arg I wish you didn't post that, I'm angry just reading trash like that....


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>sMaKDiSDoWn</b>!
> SI.com : Artest should be kicked out of the league.


That is complete BS. I read like 2 paragraphs and those will be the only 2 paragraphs I ever read from that fool.


----------



## futuristxen

Artest won't get more than 5 games. The players association won't let it happen.

This would not have happened if the NBA provided the players with better security. There was NO ONE between Ron Artest and the stands.

The NBA has to provide the players with protection. We are in an age where Monica Seles gets stabbed, where first base coaches get jumped--fans are out of control these days. And look at what happens with soccer in the rest of the world? It makes this look like childs play.

I also think the next Pistons-Pacers game in detroit should be played in an empty stadium or moved to a neutral court(have them play a game in Mexico). There should be some sort of repurcussions for fans on this. Stern needs to send a strong message to NBA fans.


----------



## daschysta31

Then the bulls are no longer a losing team


----------



## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

> Originally posted by <b>DirtyDirk41</b>!
> , no one attacked him they threw something at him.


by law, that is assault......


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

> *edited*


Are we a little offended??

Were you the one getting him by the cup? *edited*

The fan should not have thrown the cup, but at the same time a 12oz cup filled with 3 oz of liquid and ice did not hurt a 6'7 225 Ron Artest gimme a break! There was abslutely no need for him to charge in the stands as if the guy has a gun or anything.

Artest is a lost cause and is psycho! He needs a mental evaluation!

Why not stand up curse the guy out and then get security?

WOW, a semi-mature move but no we are talking about Ron Artest, BTW why in hell was he laying on the Pistons scorers table anyway?? Why not go back to the bench and sit down?

Oh YEAH I forgot he always has to be the center of attention!



> you just punch anyone you find


That has got to be one of the dumbest comments I have ever read! Even the old lady who was on the bottom of the pile? You punch her?? Class Act!?


----------



## JoeD

****, 44 pages

all we learned from this is pacers players punch like girls.

no excuse for being over 6'6 230 pounds and punching some 5 foot pudgy guy and them even noticing 

So funny when jackson and o'neal punched people and fell over on their own.

The funniest part was when Artest goes after the person who threw the drink, and he nailed the WRONG person. Use your head artest, that guy still *had* his beer  the person who did throw it was the one who threw the weak punches that artest didnt even notice in his back


----------



## socco

w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y, your hatred towards Artest is sickening.


----------



## #1BucksFan

> Originally posted by <b>sMaKDiSDoWn</b>!
> SI.com : Artest should be kicked out of the league.


That article was written by a complete homer. Not to say that how Artest, Jackson, or O'Neal acted was right, but that guy is just biased. He mentions in the article that he is close to Ben Wallace. So what that guy has to say is only an opinion and a reaction, so don't take it too seriously.

Hey, anyone else notice that nobody has yet to mention Kobe?


----------



## BG7

That SI article is a joke. But not as big of a joke as scott skiles is trying to coach the bulls.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>JoeD</b>!
> ****, 44 pages
> 
> all we learned from this is pacers players punch like girls.


Punch like girls? I've seen people punch like girls, this isn't it.


----------



## MLKG

I know a lot of people will dissagree with the Ron Artest getting thrown out of the league thing. But read that article all the way through.

It addresses a point I tried to bring up earlier- Artest may have not gotten involved physically with Ben Wallace, but he was CLEARLY provoking both Wallace and the fans. 

People want to look at him being an angel, but his hamming it up on the scorers table did not help matters. I mentioned this earlier, but before the fight in the stands started I mentioned to my roommate that "Artest better get his *** off that table before somebody does it for him". Not more than 5 seconds later somebody hit him with a drink.

A great quote from that article that sums this point up perfectly:



> It's like if Bill Laimbeer clothes-lined Larry Bird and then walked up to the concession stand to buy a hot dog. You expect something to happen.


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

> w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y, your hatred towards Artest is sickening


Your blindness to the whole situation is even worse!!


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> 
> 
> Are we a little offended??
> 
> Were you the one getting him by the cup? *edited*
> 
> The fan should not have thrown the cup, but at the same time a 12oz cup filled with 3 oz of liquid and ice did not hurt a 6'7 225 Ron Artest gimme a break! There was abslutely no need for him to charge in the stands as if the guy has a gun or anything.
> 
> *Artest is a lost cause and is psycho! He needs a mental evaluation!*
> 
> Why not stand up curse the guy out and then get security?
> 
> WOW, a semi-mature move but no we are talking about Ron Artest, BTW why in hell was he laying on the Pistons scorers table anyway?? Why not go back to the bench and sit down?
> 
> Oh YEAH I forgot he always has to be the center of attention!
> 
> 
> 
> That has got to be one of the dumbest comments I have ever read! Even the old lady who was on the bottom of the pile? You punch her?? Class Act!?


I'm with you man. 100%


----------



## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> That had nothing to do with what I said. I was commenting on the *fact* that Artest was not "defending himself." Defending himself from what? Cold liquid? That's an inaccurate exaggeration used by some fans.


a cold liquid at first yes, but how was Artest to know that perhaps something larger, like a chair, which was thrown moments later, was not coming his way?......think logically....By law, if something is thrown and you and you feel threatened, that is assault, it doesn't matter if it is a pea...it is assault....Artest defended himself....don't forget the chair that was hurled just moments later....:yes:


----------



## HKF

*edited: Do not attack entire fanbases or cities*


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> 
> 
> Your blindness to the whole situation is even worse!!


*edited: No personal attacks*


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> It addresses a point I tried to bring up earlier- Artest may have not gotten involved physically with Ben Wallace, but he was CLEARLY provoking both Wallace and the fans.


No offense, but that is the view of somebody clearly biased towards the Pistons. You are completely 100% wrong, it's kinda sad people can be that one-sided in their views.


----------



## speedythief

> Originally posted by <b>#1BucksFan</b>!
> That article was written by a complete homer. Not to say that how Artest, Jackson, or O'Neal acted was right, but that guy is just biased. He mentions in the article that he is close to Ben Wallace. So what that guy has to say is only an opinion and a reaction, so don't take it too seriously.


It's telling when the guy says that Artest should be forever banned and uses Artest's comments from the summer in support of that suggestion. Just because Artest contemplated exiting the NBA isn't a valid reason to turn a suspension into a ban. So what, if Artest hadn't said those things, he is looking at a shorter suspension? Poor logic.


----------



## Hibachi!

> Originally posted by <b>TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife</b>!
> 
> 
> a cold liquid at first yes, but how was Artest to know that perhaps something larger, like a chair, which was thrown moments later, was not coming his way?......think logically....By law, if something is thrown and you and you feel threatened, that is assault, it doesn't matter if it is a pea...it is assault....Artest defended himself....don't forget the chair that was hurled just moments later....:yes:


Yes, this is a smart decision. A cup with some beer in it is thrown at you, now you could either run the other way, AWAY from the angry crowd, or you could do the SMART thing, and run TOWARDS the danger... Smart...


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y, your hatred towards Artest is sickening.


No its not man. He's just tellin the truth man. 

I want to have Artest on my team because he's a strong defender and maybe the best but you have to agree that he's not 100% in his brain. We've seen accidents with him with almost every team in this league. The guy thinks he's god and that noone can stop him.


----------



## MarioChalmers

> Originally posted by <b>JoeD</b>!
> ****, 44 pages
> 
> all we learned from this is pacers players punch like girls.
> 
> no excuse for being over 6'6 230 pounds and punching some 5 foot pudgy guy and them even noticing
> 
> So funny when jackson and o'neal punched people and fell over on their own.
> 
> The funniest part was when Artest goes after the person who threw the drink, and he nailed the WRONG person. Use your head artest, that guy still *had* his beer  the person who did throw it was the one who threw the weak punches that artest didnt even notice in his back


Maybe you were the pudgy 5 foot guy?  

But damnit quit blaming Artest. HE DIDNT START THE MOTHER****ING MESS! Why can't HOMERS admit that Detroit fans instigated the whole thing? Who the hell would be stupid enough to throw beer at Ron ****ing Artest? He's the new Dennis Rodman, you don't throw beer on ****ing Dennis Rodman! 

What Artest did isn't even the worst. If the ****ing fat guy did that on the street he'd be dead by now.


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

I feel for you seeing as how you cannot see anything becuase you are blinded by your own love for Mr. Artest.

Come on man, open your eyes! 

Explain one thing: Why did he lay on the table instead of going back to the place where you are SUPPOSE to sit?


----------



## Debt Collector

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> It obvious most of you have never played on a team.


its also obvious most here havent been in a fistfight


----------



## spongyfungy

It's on replay right now. kinda strange watching them hug like this.


----------



## Max Payne

NOPE NOT HERE

BEEZ


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>DaUnbreakableKinG</b>!
> 
> 
> No its not man. He's just tellin the truth man.
> 
> I want to have Artest on my team because he's a strong defender and maybe the best but you have to agree that he's not 100% in his brain. We've seen accidents with him with almost every team in this league. The guy thinks he's god and that noone can stop him.


Yeah Artest isn't anywhere close to 100% in his brain. But that guy just hates Artest, and it's shown in his posts.



> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> 
> 
> I feel for you seeing as how you cannot see anything becuase you are blinded by your own love for Mr. Artest.
> 
> Come on man, open your eyes!
> 
> Explain one thing: Why did he lay on the table instead of going back to the place where you are SUPPOSE to sit?


What? I don't even like Artest. He sat on the table becasue he sat on the table. Everybody was at mid court, he backed up towards the table and happened to sit on it. My God. Yeah the guy is crazy, but not everything he does is wrong, apparently you disagree though.


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 

Oh that was good, heres another for ya, nevermind I dont want any trouble from MODs I will walk away although I was assaulted and shoot be able to charge him and punch him too right??


----------



## Yao Mania

c'mon children, calm down.... else we'll be seeing our own suspensions here on BBB.net


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> 
> No offense, but that is the view of somebody clearly biased towards the Pistons. You are completely 100% wrong, it's kinda sad people can be that one-sided in their views.


This has nothing to do with bias. How am I being one sided. 

Do you honestly think Ron Artest laying on the table jawing with fans was helping the situation?

Seriously. Answer that question.

If Ron Artest would have just went and sat down on the bench do you think this would have happened?


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

> He sat on the table becasue he sat on the table. Everybody was at mid court,


So why not move away from the crowd?? Instead of laying right next to it?


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>sMaKDiSDoWn</b>!
> SI.com : Artest should be kicked out of the league.


This is the dumbest article I have ever seen written.

Ever.


----------



## Max Payne

Well genius, last time I checked you had to be pretty damn smart to get into an Ivy League...


----------



## Enigma

I don't feel sorry for the guy that got clocked by O'Neal, not because he was on the court but because of this:

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

He just hit the jackpot.


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> 
> 
> its also obvious most here havent been in a fistfight


I've been involved in fistfights and once at a club where the owners almost started shooting people.

But the point is just like *S-Star* said in another thread that this is not your typical fistfight, this is the nba and fans paid ******* money to come watch these games and Artest gets money from Detroit fans and other fans around the league. 

The guy threw the cup, allright, let the security get him and then tomorrow you can sue the mother******. But it's obvious that artest wants to fight whenever he gets the chance. He's that type of guy. For little things. He got no control over himself whatsoever.


----------



## JoeD

I pray only some moderate suspensions happen. Everything that happened should cancel each other out.


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

> I don't feel sorry for the guy that got clocked by O'Neal, not because he was on the court but because of this: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
> 
> He just hit the jackpot.


Thats good! And Funny! :laugh: 

But its probably gonna be true.


----------



## Max Payne

It would be horrible for the league and it would also really weaken the Eastern Conference because these are the two best teams in the East...also with the apparently inevitable lock out that's headed our way, this could only build up to that in a really negative way....also I'm wondering about lawsuits by people in the audience that will potentially also keep these guys off the court.


----------



## MarioChalmers

> Originally posted by <b>DaUnbreakableKinG</b>!
> 
> 
> I've been involved in fistfights and once at a club where the owners almost started shooting people.
> 
> But the point is just like *S-Star* said in another thread that this is not your typical fistfight, this is the nba and fans paid ******* money to come watch these games and Artest gets money from Detroit fans and other fans around the league.
> 
> The guy threw the cup, allright, let the security get him and then tomorrow you can sue the mother******. But it's obvious that artest wants to fight whenever he gets the chance. He's that type of guy. For little things. He got no control over himself whatsoever.


Honestly, I, myself would've done the same thing. I mean... it's not so much the act. I just don't want to be disrespected on nation television. If someone disrespects me, I'd rather beat the living hell out of him than get his money or get him in probation. If I were Artest, I'd have more than enough money anyway.


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

> Originally posted by <b>DaUnbreakableKinG</b>!
> 
> 
> I've been involved in fistfights and once at a club where the owners almost started shooting people.
> 
> But the point is just like *S-Star* said in another thread that this is not your typical fistfight, this is the nba and fans paid ******* money to come watch these games and Artest gets money from Detroit fans and other fans around the league.
> 
> The guy threw the cup, allright, let the security get him and then tomorrow you can sue the mother******. But it's obvious that artest wants to fight whenever he gets the chance. He's that type of guy. For little things. He got no control over himself whatsoever.


I would've and I'm sure lots of others would've done the same thing if I was in his position does that make us have no control?


----------



## jvanbusk

I can't imagine what it most have been like to just be standing there with a soda in your hand and then get attacked by Ron Artest. And then after that get pummeled by Stephen Jackson.

I feel bad for that guy. It's pretty obvious from the tape Artest went after the wrong guy.


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

> I would've and I'm sure lots of others would've done the same thing if I was in his position


Why put your whole career on the line for some stupid idiot fan that probably makes 25K a year over a throw beer?


----------



## JoeD

If only Artest atleast went for a guy *without* a drink...


----------



## Lakerman33

i dont blame artest and the boys for cleaning house rite ON!


----------



## JoeD

I can forgive the fans for talking trash and throwing drinks, but the chair is unacceptable. Also, if they sue, that's downright shameful. They provoked them and this is what they wanted.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> This has nothing to do with bias. How am I being one sided.
> 
> Do you honestly think Ron Artest laying on the table jawing with fans was helping the situation?
> 
> Seriously. Answer that question.
> 
> If Ron Artest would have just went and sat down on the bench do you think this would have happened?


Jawing with fans? Where do you get that from. I just watched it again, and he never said anything to any fans. And the fans are 3 rows away anyways. Him laying there was MUCH better than if he would've still been standing up and in the fight like the rest of his teammates. Wallace would've went after him if he wasn't laying on the table. If he would've went back and sat on the bench? Are you kidding me? Everybody on both teams was at mid court before he even layed down. Him laying down has nothing to do with anything, and that's why you're biased and one-sided.



> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> 
> 
> So why not move away from the crowd?? Instead of laying right next to it?


He was WAY away from the crowd. There's 2 or 3 rows of media people between Artest and the fans. And why would it come into his mind that he needs to get away from the fans? Get away from the other team yeah, but the fans, that would never cross your mind.


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> 
> 
> Why put your whole career on the line for some stupid idiot fan that probably makes 25K a year over a throw beer?


Besides its not his fault... there wasn't enough security he shouldn't have been able to get to the fan and visa vera its the part of the fault has to go on the nba so I can see why he would get over 10 games. I don't see him getting the rest of the seaons or to the all star break as some are suggesting.


----------



## MarioChalmers

> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> 
> 
> Why put your whole career on the line for some stupid idiot fan that probably makes 25K a year over a throw beer?


It's more of a dignity thing than a money thing. It's like the high school nerd who always gets beaten up and protected by the school. He never gets any respect.


----------



## Max Payne

Here's another thing...I know a lot of us found Stephen Jackson's whole gangsta "We ride together man !" comment hilarious but don't you suppose that this is the kind of incident that might really pull this team together after all the suspensions and impending lawsuits ? I was thinking that only last week Stephen A. and company were talking about how Artest and O'Neal had been at loggerheads for quite some time now and how apparently JO demanded that Artest get traded...then the next thing you know, when the biggest fight in NBA history breaks out, none other than JO is at Artest's side decking some that guy on the court...so at the end of the road this might just be a very good thing for Indiana as a team if the players involved can get out of all the impediments relatively unscathed. 

Also at first I thought that Jackson was just looking for someone to bash but then upon closer inspection it appears that the guy who he hit was the guy who splashed a drink at Ron after he had charged into the crowd so I guess Jackson goes down a couple of notches on the insanity scale....


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> It obvious most of you have never played on a team.


Why?

I would have done anything ON the court/field to protect a teammate. But I would never ever rush a fan in the stands over something petty like a spilled drink- no matter how you spin it.


----------



## sweet_constipation

Damn, I actually read all 46 pages.
 

Everything that I agree or disagree with has pretty much been said, but I'll still give my 2 cents homie.
 

Once you either throw an object or "buck-up" towards a player, you're as fair game as a girl only a minute into her 18th birthday.
Just my opinion.
The first nerd didn't deserve what he got because he didn't throw the cup......I do feel bad for him. However, the guy that did, deserved that shot from Artest after he freed himself.
Not only did that guy throw the cup and not man-up, he let an innocent fan get hurt, and finally decided to hold Artest from the back and throw shots to his head.

And yes, Jackson was looking for a fight........it wasn't hard to tell.
That said, I really didn't mind him "covering" Artest's back in that situation.

As far as the two dudes that were rolling towards Artest's direction on the court...........they got what they deserved.
You "hop-skip" your way directly in front of a man like that, you're asking for a fight.
Then, Tubby-#2 decides to tackle Artest to the ground. No problem with that. He's helping out his friend the same way Jackson was with Artest.
Just too bad JO was sliding in as if he were trying to steal 2nd with his fists ready to great someone's face.

Last thing that needs to be said.........whoever says these guys swing like girls........I wouldn't want to live in your area.
Honest.


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> 
> 
> Why put your whole career on the line for some stupid idiot fan that probably makes 25K a year over a throw beer?


Money has nothing to do with respect. The fans showed no respect and if Stern is intelligent, he will condemn the behavior of the fans and in lue of that not suspend the Pacers for more than 5 games. 

Ben Wallace was the instigator in this whole mess. Couldn't accept defeat and move on. I know his brother died, but seriously, get it together Ben.


----------



## socco

I agree Max Payne. It could be like that, not sure if it will, but I can see something like this bringing a team together. But I disgaree on the part about Jackson being somewhat sane. He was lookign to fight anyone he could when it was just the players. Then he got in teh stands and it was the same thing, swing at anybody and everybody. I think he was the worst of anybody.


----------



## sweet_constipation

Also, imo there's only so much security could do with these particular situations.
Especially at a basketball game........nothing like this has ever happened.
That said, it's to be expected security to increase and we might see other changes regulated by Stern.


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

> It's more of a dignity thing than a money thing. It's like the high school nerd who always gets beaten up and protected by the school. He never gets any respect.


But he dont have the right to come back and kill any either though does he?



> Besides its not his fault... there wasn't enough security he shouldn't have been able to get to the fan and visa vera its the part of the fault has to go on the nba so I can see why he would get over 10 games. I don't see him getting the rest of the seaons or to the all star break as some are suggesting.


Lets not go and blame the NBA now, becuase before now how many times has this happened?

None.. so it is a fault of alot of people...Ben (over-reacting), Fan throwing something is NEVER right, Ron and Stephen...YOU NEVER GO INTO THE STANDS! 

One more question in a hypothetical situation...Ron and Stephen clock some guy in the stands he is 5'10 165 and feels his life is threatened, now by law if he has a gun he can shoot them and claim self defense as he thought his life was in danger.... If that happened would it have been rightful?


----------



## Midnight_Marauder

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> But I would never ever rush a fan in the stands over something petty like a spilled drink- no matter how you spin it.


People treat their dog better than the way the fans treat these athletes....this is bigger than just this game....fans treat players like they are not real people......everyone has their limit...what human being throws a half dranken beer on someone else? Seriously


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> Ben Wallace was the instigator in this whole mess. Couldn't accept defeat and move on. I know his brother died, but seriously, get it together Ben.


Why are you protecting artest man?? YOu're one of my favorite posters here and you're saying that Wallace was the instigator. :nonono:

Tell me this, for their respective careers, how many technicals does Wallace have and how many does Artest have?? 

Then after that tell me again who was the instigator. 

Peace.


----------



## MarioChalmers

> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> 
> 
> But he dont have the right to come back and kill any either though does he?


But he can beat them up just to get some of his dignity back.


----------



## daschysta31

It wasnt even a very hard foul...


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

> Tell me this, for their respective careers, how many technicals does Wallace have and how many does Artest have??


their reps shouldnt play into this Kermit Washington never had that many techs but it didnt keep him from breaking Rudys face?

You have to look at the situation with no names really but by just bodies and situations.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>DaUnbreakableKinG</b>!
> 
> 
> Why are you protecting artest man?? YOu're one of my favorite posters here and you're saying that Wallace was the instigator. :nonono:
> 
> Tell me this, for their respective careers, how many technicals does Wallace have and how many does Artest have??
> 
> Then after that tell me again who was the instigator.
> 
> Peace.


What the hell? Wallace clearly started it, are you out of your freaking mind? Obviously so.


----------



## Midnight_Marauder

> Originally posted by <b>DaUnbreakableKinG</b>!
> 
> 
> Why are you protecting artest man?? YOu're one of my favorite posters here and you're saying that Wallace was the instigator. :nonono:
> 
> Tell me this, for their respective careers, how many technicals does Wallace have and how many does Artest have??
> 
> Then after that tell me again who was the instigator.
> 
> Peace.



You forgive Wallace for losing his temper with Artest over a borderline hard foul.....then you dont forgive Artest for getting upset that someone threw a container of beer on him? Neither one is in the right they are both in the wrong....

(man I cant believe I am still up :laugh: )


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Money has nothing to do with respect. The fans showed no respect and if Stern is intelligent, he will condemn the behavior of the fans and in lue of that not suspend the Pacers for more than 5 games.


And was Artest being respectful by lounging on the scorers table? Was he REALLY doing that in the interest of peace? Come on. He tried to get a reaction out of Ben Wallace, like he always does, and after getting Ben to lose his cool he was basking in his own glory.

Ron Artest is like the kid who is always standing behind you tapping on your shoulder. You turn around and look at him and he stops, but then starts again as soon as you turn your back. This goes on and on and finally you turn around and hit him. He then sits and laughs at you as you get suspended from school.....only this time there were other people around that didn't appreciate the laughing.

Don't even try to play Ron Artest up as some angel. Ben Wallace may have started it, but Ron Artest and Ron Artest alone turned it into a riot.


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>DaUnbreakableKinG</b>!
> 
> 
> Why are you protecting artest man?? YOu're one of my favorite posters here and you're saying that Wallace was the instigator. :nonono:
> 
> Tell me this, for their respective careers, how many technicals does Wallace have and how many does Artest have??
> 
> Then after that tell me again who was the instigator.
> 
> Peace.


Do you really think I care that I'm your one your favorite posters? What does that have to do with this? I don't agree with you. If you don't see that Wallace could have just took his FT's and the loss like a man, instead of spazzing out, this would have never happened. 

I don't have any love for dumbass fans thinking they are tough guys. See while we are playing armchair quarterbacks, the people who were out there saw all the people who threw things. That's why I am not upset with Jackson (protecting his teammate) or O'Neal.

Just remember that Pistons fans that weren't involved, decided to involve themselves. Well, now you got to protect yourself. 

See if the fans don't throw stuff, then this doesn't happen also. Since the fans, want to be slick and throw crap and then get choked up for it, so be it.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for the Pacers. Some of you need to come out of your suburban fantasies and into the real world. If a dude throw a drink on me in a club, I'm whooping his ***.


----------



## Midnight_Marauder

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Ben Wallace may have started it, but Ron Artest and Ron Artest alone turned it into a riot.


No the fans turned it into a riot


----------



## NYKBaller

Damn, I missed all of this. Artest is representing NY, we don't let that **** happen...


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> 
> Lets not go and blame the NBA now, becuase before now how many times has this happened?
> 
> None.. so it is a fault of alot of people...Ben (over-reacting), Fan throwing something is NEVER right, Ron and Stephen...YOU NEVER GO INTO THE STANDS!
> 
> One more question in a hypothetical situation...Ron and Stephen clock some guy in the stands he is 5'10 165 and feels his life is threatened, now by law if he has a gun he can shoot them and claim self defense as he thought his life was in danger.... If that happened would it have been rightful?


You don't think the nba is responsible for this situation? It doesn't matter if there is a precedent. The nba has a duty to protect its players from the fans but alas it has happend before in other sports it was just a shame how it happend. I feel sorry for everyone that was involved. I thought Artest was trying to cool down and was doing the right thing but the fan sent him over the edge (I would've done the same thing). I think he should get a 10 game suspension along with JO and Jackson while the other guys get a couple games each.


----------



## Totality

can anybody upload video? please......


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

> Some of you need to come out of your suburban fantasies and into the real world. If a dude throw a drink on me in a club, I'm whooping his ***.


This aint no club and this is suppose to be your job and profession! So at your job is someone throws a drink on you and at that job you make about 10 Million you gonna say screw it and whoop that tail?

If so then you need a reality check.


----------



## MarioChalmers

*sigh* 

It's still a sad, sad day for the NBA. 

Wow, that rhymes...

But I'm dead serious. I've been backing Artest here, but I have to admit he wasn't quite right either. It's just sad...


----------



## J19

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> And was Artest being respectful by lounging on the scorers table? Was he REALLY doing that in the interest of peace? Come on. He tried to get a reaction out of Ben Wallace, like he always does, and after getting Ben to lose his cool he was basking in his own glory.
> 
> Ron Artest is like the kid who is always standing behind you tapping on your shoulder. You turn around and look at him and he stops, but then starts again as soon as you turn your back. This goes on and on and finally you turn around and hit him. He then sits and laughs at you as you get suspended from school.....only this time there were other people around that didn't appreciate the laughing.
> 
> Don't even try to play Ron Artest up as some angel. Ben Wallace may have started it, but Ron Artest and Ron Artest alone turned it into a riot.



Ben Wallace spazzed out like a girl, it wasn't even a hard foul


You guys need to get off of Artest's <bleep> and stop obsessing this guy


You call him an attention whore, but you're the ones so fast to give him that attention


Ben Wallace started this, if Ben Wallace just ignored it (there was f'n 40 secs left in the game) This problem would of been avoided

But instead, Ben Wallace pushed Artest, Artest did ntohing he didnt hit back, Ben Wallace tried to attack Artest after pushing him Artest didnt even defend himself he just sat on the announcers table, he did NOTHING violent or anything to get him ejected from the game


Ben Wallace could of avoid this but he acted like a child


and Artest gets objects thrown at him wow *edited: Do not attack entire fanbases*


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

> No the fans turned it into a riot


Hello?? Artest jumped into the crowd and then all hell broke loose.

The cup was thrown and no other Pacer did anything until Crazy Ron went 15 rows up!


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Midnight_Marauder</b>!
> 
> 
> People treat their dog better than the way the fans treat these athletes....this is bigger than just this game....fans treat players like they are not real people......everyone has their limit...what human being throws a half dranken beer on someone else? Seriously


I think the pros of being a professional athlete far outweight the cons.

I would say if anything fans treat players like they are more than people.

I know it's ****ty but in this situation you HAVE to be the bigger person and just let security people do their jobs.

Their is no justification to ever beat up a fan in his seat. I don't care WHAT they did.

It's easy to admire Artest for standing up to that *******, but look at the havoc that his actions caused. If Artest had not rushed the stands this would not have happened. It just wouldn't have. So maybe he has to swallow his pride a bit, but that's what being a man is about. Not hauling off and hitting every guy that wrongs you.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>DaUnbreakableKinG</b>!
> 
> 
> How did he start it?? The ******* game was over. He wanted to make those two points and here come Artest (mr.angel) and pushes you while you're in the air. And also for those that are saying that it wasn't a hard foul you gotta remember how strong Benny is. Using the same energy that would require to foul Wallace would


Artest fouled him. It wasn't a flagrant foul, no technical foul, just a foul. And Ben just goes off on him. Man, Ben is one of my favorite players, but you're out of your freaking mind. Artest fouls him and then doens't do anything, doens't go towards him, doesn't act strong and tough, doens't do anything. Then Ben spazzes and punches him (yes it was technically a punch) in the face. Ron just walks away. He lays on the scorers table, and Ben keeps spazzing, after not being able to get to him, he goes on a rampage and finds a towel and whips it at Ron's head. *edited: No personal attacks* Ben clearly started it, that's the one thing in this whole deal that there is absolutely no argument about, cut and dry, Ben started it.


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you really think I care that I'm your one your favorite posters? What does that have to do with this? I don't agree with you. If you don't see that Wallace could have just took his FT's and the loss like a man, instead of spazzing out, this would have never happened.
> 
> I don't have any love for dumbass fans thinking they are tough guys. See while we are playing armchair quarterbacks, the people who were out there saw all the people who threw things. That's why I am not upset with Jackson (protecting his teammate) or O'Neal.
> 
> Just remember that Pistons fans that weren't involved, decided to involve themselves. Well, now you got to protect yourself.
> 
> See if the fans don't throw stuff, then this doesn't happen also. Since the fans, want to be slick and throw crap and then get choked up for it, so be it.
> 
> I have nothing but the utmost respect for the Pacers. Some of you need to come out of your suburban fantasies and into the real world. If a dude throw a drink on me in a club, I'm whooping his ***.


Don't tell me about the real world man... you've never been in a ******* war, seen your house burnt ******* down, and seen people getting killed and massacred. 

And hell NO, I don't think that you care about anything.


----------



## Kaas

Stuff in defense of the Pacers:

So Cal Sports Report showed a clip of Wallace fouling Artest somewhat hard (no call though) a little before Artest's foul. This definitely was THE cause of the fight, since without this happening, Artest never would've retaliated. So in the end, it began with a missed call.

Yes, Stephen Jackson probably charged the stands prematurely, but he didn't swing until the ******* had already poured his drink on Artest.

The two fat guys were dumbasses. Why in the hell would you go ONTO the court during such a fiasco. Your asking for **** by doing that. It was their fault they got their asses handed to them.

Lastly, I felt sorry for that one old lady who got crushed by the other fight with some of the fans. And of course, those in the arena who didn't come to get drunk and taunt the Pacers, but to have fun watching a good game on a Friday night.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> 
> 
> Hello?? Artest jumped into the crowd and then all hell broke loose.
> 
> The cup was thrown and no other Pacer did anything until Crazy Ron went 15 rows up!


Hello?? The fan assaulted Ron in the first place.

The cup was thrown and Ron immediately went 5 rows up, not 15, becfore any of his teammates could possibly do anything.


This is why I can't love the Pistons, *edited*, and this is before tonight, but the fans at the arena and you guys here are just so out of touch with reality, it's sad. I really want to not only like the Pistons, but love them and live and die by what they do, *edited: Don't attack entire fanbases*


----------



## Johnny Mac

Look, these players aren't angels, they are people just like everyone else and they play basketball well. They should not be expected to put up with people spitting in their face and doing everything in the book aside from physically touching them. 

Sometimes I think that if a fan pulled and threatened to shoot a player, some of you would fault his teammate for attacking that fan. 

You can't just expect these people to have unlimited patience, unlimited ability to forgive and forget, etc. Pistons fans at the arena took it way too far tonight, and some of them got what was coming to them. I hope some of the fans get punished severely to prevent this from happening again. 

The players want to play basketball, they don't come to the game with intentions to fight the fans. Its obvious that some fans come to the games with the intentions to get the players riled up, just because they know that the player is the one who has to keep his cool and the fan can keep provoking the player without consequence. Then when the player does lose his cool, its his fault for not holding back.


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>J19</b>!
> 
> But instead, Ben Wallace pushed Artest, Artest did ntohing he didnt hit back, Ben Wallace tried to attack Artest after pushing him Artest didnt even defend himself he just sat on the announcers table, he did NOTHING violent or anything to get him ejected from the game


honestly, I think Artest doing nothing violent had more to do with him wanting NO piece of Big Ben then it did with him being a pacifist.

Ben shoves him in the throat and Ron does nothing. 
Some short skinny guy throws a drink on him and Ron flips out.

Hmmmm.

If Ron wanted to throw a punch, it should have been at Ben Wallace.


----------



## RomaVictor

> Originally posted by <b>DaUnbreakableKinG</b>!
> 
> 
> Don't tell me about the real world man... you've never been in a fu***** war, seen your house burnt fu***** down, and seen people getting killed and massacred.
> 
> And hell NO, I don't think that you care about anything.


In the Balkans, man?


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Do you really think I care that I'm your one your favorite posters? What does that have to do with this? I don't agree with you. If you don't see that Wallace could have just took his FT's and the loss like a man, instead of spazzing out, this would have never happened.
> 
> I don't have any love for dumbass fans thinking they are tough guys. See while we are playing armchair quarterbacks, the people who were out there saw all the people who threw things. That's why I am not upset with Jackson (protecting his teammate) or O'Neal.
> 
> Just remember that Pistons fans that weren't involved, decided to involve themselves. Well, now you got to protect yourself.
> 
> See if the fans don't throw stuff, then this doesn't happen also. Since the fans, want to be slick and throw crap and then get choked up for it, so be it.
> 
> I have nothing but the utmost respect for the Pacers. Some of you need to come out of your suburban fantasies and into the real world. If a dude throw a drink on me in a club, I'm whooping his ***.


Truth. 

I have so much respect for the Pacers tonight, defending themselves and their teammates like they did.


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

> Hello?? The fan assaulted Ron in the first place. The cup was thrown and Ron immediately went 5 rows up, not 15, becfore any of his teammates could possibly do anything.


OK 5 or 15 it really dont matter, the fact is that if Ron doesnt rush the fan if he just stands up and screams and curses the guy then no riot ensues.

Plain and Simple


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> 
> 
> OK 5 or 15 it really dont matter, the fact is that if Ron doesnt rush the fan if he just stands up and screams and curses the guy then no riot ensues.
> 
> Plain and Simple


Nobody's saying it was ok for him to attack the fan are they? You seem to be focusing on what Ron did wrong, look at what the fans did wrong, what Ben did wrong, what Jackson did wrong, what the fans did wrong again, what the fans did wrong again, etc. too.


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

> Originally posted by <b>RomaVictor</b>!
> 
> 
> In the Balkans, man?


Yes.


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

> In the Balkans, man?


You have never been to Kosovo have you?? Maybe about 5-10 yrs ago.....BIG WAR!!! Even now alot of little fighting here and there just never televised due to Iraq and Afghanistan


----------



## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Ben Wallace was the instigator in this whole mess. Couldn't accept defeat and move on. I know his brother died, but seriously, get it together Ben.


I suppose flagrant fouls to the back of the head while up 15 points in the closing seconds of a game offer absolutely no provocation.


Ask yourself...(?)

Why does one take such a deliberate hard foul in such a situation? _There was no attempted play on the ball what so ever._

Why does one lay on top of the scorers table up 15 points in front of a hostile crowd (1) angered over the eminent defeat to their closest rival (2) angered by a player mixing it up with their most adored player/ basketball icon?

Admitted, what the Detroit *fan* did was wrong (he deserved to be hit) but so was Artest's decision to enter the stands. What began as a problem with one out of line fan he escalated into an incredibly dangerous problem with an out of line stadium.

Why do people continue to overlook these things?


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

> You seem to be focusing on what Ron did wrong, look at what the fans did wrong, what Ben did wrong, what Jackson did wrong, what the fans did wrong again, what the fans did wrong again, etc. too.


You must not be reading all my posts as I have stated that Ben was wrong for flipping out, the fan was wrong for throwing a cup and Ron and Stephen were wrong for going bleacher bound! Go back and look at my posts if you doubt this.


----------



## J19

You're acting like Artest is the only guy in the NBA to go into the stands after being getting hit with cups and beers and other foods


----------



## HKF

Look this has nothing with being a tough guy. If some guy throws some stuff on me, the level of disrespect is too much for a man to handle. 

Most people don't just shrug that stuff off. Yeah maybe Tiger Woods or Mike Dunleavy would, because they're wimps, but these are grown *** men. You pick a fight with a grown man, be ready to take your whipping like a man.

Sorry you've had to see war, so then you should know first hand what it means to defend yourself and your honor.

How much money they make is of no consequence. If you can't differentiate between the two, tough.


----------



## socco

*edited: Don't attack entire fanbases*


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

> You pick a fight with a grown man, be ready to take your whipping like a man.


If that is your stance then why didnt Ron go back after Ben??


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> Truth.
> 
> I have so much respect for the Pacers tonight, defending themselves and their teammates like they did.


I have respect for Fred Jones and David Harrison who were in there with Rasheed Wallace peeling people off of fans.

After it started Harrison got in there and violently ripped Jackson away from the defenseless fan he was pummeling.

Fred Jones took a couple vicious shots to the head for his peace making efforts.

Funny, the two youngest players on the team have the best perspective on things.

I feel sorry for Austin Crochere, Reggie Miller, and the Pacers coaching staff who got doused for trying to get certain guys off the court.

I have lost all respect I had (which was quite a lot) for Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal, and Stephen Jackson.

They acted like children. There is no other way you can look at it.


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

> I have respect for Fred Jones and David Harrison who were in there with Rasheed Wallace peeling people off of fans.
> 
> After it started Harrison got in there and violently ripped Jackson away from the defenseless fan he was pummeling.
> 
> Fred Jones took a couple vicious shots to the head for his peace making efforts.
> 
> Funny, the two youngest players on the team have the best perspective on things.
> 
> I feel sorry for Austin Crochere, Reggie Miller, and the Pacers coaching staff who got doused for trying to get certain guys off the court.


AGREED!:yes:


----------



## socco

I've lost alot of respect for O'Neal for his punch. I havne't lost any respect for Jackson, becasue I never had any to begin with. The guy is a loser, he's just a punk. But I gained alot of respect for Artest tonight for not going off and containing himself right away. I lost alot of that when he went in the stands, but overall I gained respect for Artest.


----------



## J19

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> I have respect for Fred Jones and David Harrison who were in there with Rasheed Wallace peeling people off of fans.
> 
> After it started Harrison got in there and violently ripped Jackson away from the defenseless fan he was pummeling.
> 
> Fred Jones took a couple vicious shots to the head for his peace making efforts.
> 
> Funny, the two youngest players on the team have the best perspective on things.
> 
> I feel sorry for Austin Crochere, Reggie Miller, and the Pacers coaching staff who got doused for trying to get certain guys off the court.
> 
> I have lost all respect I had (which was quite a lot) for Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal, and Stephen Jackson.
> 
> They acted like children. There is no other way you can look at it.



*edited: Don't attack entire fanbases*


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

> I've lost alot of respect for O'Neal for his punch. I havne't lost any respect for Jackson, becasue I never had any to begin with. The guy is a loser, he's just a punk. But I gained alot of respect for Artest tonight for not going off and containing himself right away. I lost alot of that when he went in the stands.


WOW! I AGREE AGAIN!  :yes:


----------



## HKF

Yes a Piston fan losing respect for the Pacer players. Hmmm...  

I hope Detroit never wins a title again. In anything. 

Your fans started this junk and you lose respect for the Pacers.


----------



## RomaVictor

*w-h-i-t-e boy*

Uh, thanks for the lesson, I likely know a lot more about history, both recent and ancient than you.

I KNOW about Kosovo, I said Balkans because I had believed DaUnbreakable to be referring to Bosnia and the tumult and war there NOT Kosovo.

Kosovo is a different animal than the previous Balkan conflicts and that's all I'll say on that.


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

> Originally posted by <b>w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y</b>!
> 
> 
> AGREED!:yes:


Same here.


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

> Yes a Piston fan losing respect for the Pacer players. Hmmm


If thats to me I am actually a Boston and Memphis fan (check the posts).

Honestly I dont give a crap about either team, other than I am a huge Larry Bird fan so actually I would probably be a Pacer fan before a Piston fan.


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

*Re: w-h-i-t-e boy*



> Originally posted by <b>RomaVictor</b>!
> Uh, thanks for the lesson, I likely know a lot more about history, both recent and ancient than you.
> 
> I KNOW about Kosovo, I said Balkans because I had believed DaUnbreakable to be referring to Bosnia and the tumult and war there NOT Kosovo.
> 
> Kosovo is a different animal than the previous Balkan conflicts and that's all I'll say on that.


What you mean different animal??

Same thing that happend in Bosnia happend in Kosovo. The only difference is USA acted faster. (thank god)


----------



## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y

> Uh, thanks for the lesson, I likely know a lot more about history, both recent and ancient than you.
> 
> I KNOW about Kosovo, I said Balkans because I had believed DaUnbreakable to be referring to Bosnia and the tumult and war there NOT Kosovo.
> 
> Kosovo is a different animal than the previous Balkan conflicts and that's all I'll say on that.


then why ask "KOSOVO" if you already know? You been there? You been at war? You in the military fighting for others freedoms....didnt think so.


----------



## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Look this has nothing with being a tough guy. If some guy throws some stuff on me, the level of disrespect is too much for a man to handle.
> 
> Most people don't just shrug that stuff off. Yeah maybe Tiger Woods or Mike Dunleavy would, because they're wimps, but these are grown *** men. You pick a fight with a grown man, be ready to take your whipping like a man.
> 
> Sorry you've had to see war, so then you should know first hand what it means to defend yourself and your honor.
> 
> How much money they make is of no consequence. If you can't differentiate between the two, tough.


I agree with most of this (in principle) but there is a flaw.

Most people would be ready to bang after being viciously pushed in the neck area as well (I know I would).

Why is it however that Artest remained composed and rapidly retreated when Ben Wallace began charging at him (even hitting him with a towel) yet found the courage and inner fire to leap tall chairs with a single bound after being doused with a beer.

His tough guy routine seems to be a bit selective if you ask me (real tough guys do not pick and choose who they confront once disrespected).

_Coincidentally in the choice of Ben and guy with glasses Artest chose guy with glasses (go figure)._


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Yes a Piston fan losing respect for the Pacer players. Hmmm...
> 
> I hope Detroit never wins a title again. In anything.
> 
> Your fans started this junk and you lose respect for the Pacers.


Once again, I don't have fans.

I can't lose respect for a fan base because I don't stereotype groups of individuals. I can only hold respect for individuals. Not groups of people.

I didn't lose respect for the Pacers either. I lost respect for Artest, O'Neal, and Jackson. There is a difference.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Once again, I don't have fans.
> 
> I can't lose respect for a fan base because I don't stereotype groups of individuals. I can only hold respect for individuals. Not groups of people.
> 
> I didn't lose respect for the Pacers either. I lost respect for Artest, O'Neal, and Jackson. There is a difference.


But you didn't lose respect for Ben Wallace?


----------



## Peja Vu

> Originally posted by <b>gian</b>!
> It's just sad...


Yup


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> But you didn't lose respect for Ben Wallace?


Why should we lose respect for him??


----------



## sweet_constipation

Whether you agree or disagree with what happened tonight, I think we can all agree on one thing....don't F___ with a Pacer.
Especially a squad consisting of Jackson, Artest, JO, and Reggie(hey, he never backed down and threw Kobe around  ).


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>DaUnbreakableKinG</b>!
> 
> 
> Why should we lose respect for him??


If you lose respect for Artest, you should lose respect for Wallace for instigating the whole thing.

Wallace doesn't go insane after a type of foul that happens all the time and *none of this happens*.

Not only did he viciously "choke-punch" Artest, but he was still going after him even after Artest was backing up, obviously trying to be the better person and not get into a fight.


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> But you didn't lose respect for Ben Wallace?


I'm dissapointed in Ben Wallace.

He lost his composure and let his frustrations boil over and losing him for a couple more games will hurt his team.

But at the same time, Ben Wallace didn't punch any fans. He kept his beef on the court. If Ben Wallace ever punched out a fan, I would immediately lose all respect for him. But he didn't. Ben didn't start that riot, Artest did.


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

> Originally posted by <b>sweet_constipation</b>!
> Whether you agree or disagree with what happened tonight, I think we can all agree on one thing....*don't F___ with a Pacer.*


Well I agree. Cause that would make you a homosexual or bisexual unless you were a woman.


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> If you lose respect for Artest, you should lose respect for Wallace for instigating the whole thing.
> 
> Wallace doesn't go insane after a type of foul that happens all the time and *none of this happens*.
> 
> Not only did he viciously "choke-punch" Artest, but he was still going after him even after Artest was backing up, obviously trying to be the better person and not get into a fight.


Watch the replays on Sportcenter. Tell me where the whole thing starts. With Wallace "chokepunching" Artest or Artest making a stupid foul on Wallace?


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm dissapointed in Ben Wallace.
> 
> He lost his composure and let his frustrations boil over and losing him for a couple more games will hurt his team.
> 
> But at the same time, Ben Wallace didn't punch any fans. He kept his beef on the court. If Ben Wallace ever punched out a fan, I would immediately lose all respect for him. But he didn't. Ben didn't start that riot, Artest did.


Wallace is the one that provoked Artest though. You can't possibly deny that if Wallace hadn't overreacted, this wouldn't have happened?

And if you desperately want to lay blame on someone other than Wallace, lay it all on that IDIOT Detroit fan who threw the cup of beer at Artest.


----------



## sweet_constipation

The Enigma, you bring up a good argument.
Personally though, I think Artest was able to remain calm because he's been critized as someone that just loses it during games.....I do believe he is much improved compared to past seasons, and continues to work on it.
That said, I think it took ALL of his patience.
He just lost it when something as unexpectedly as a cup hits him directly in the face while he's trying to remain calm.
Not an insult to Big Ben, but I know if I were Artest I'd rather face one individual that jump into a crowd of people where I can easily be dominated.

Just my take, but do see where you're coming from.


----------



## Rod Strickland

*...*

i didn't even get to check how many pages this was but i stopped at about 10 because everybody is saying the same thing. 

firstly, i'd have to agree with mengtu. firstly, artest did the right thing by walking away from wallace. unfortunately that's where him doing the right thing ends. mengtu is right...this was an offensive attack brought on by artest. if you read any state law, it says that self-defense is when you are in fear of your life. the way it looked to me was that he was not, and instead just wanted to beat somebody up for taking him out of that tantric zone he was in. personally, i thought it was that girl with the jersey who threw it...she had her hand up. artest probably didn't want to punch her so he decided to go after the drunk scronny white guy with glasses. in terms of defense, if the white guy had a gun and pulled it out and shot artest the guy has more of a reason to claim self-defense.

as for suspensions, i think artest, JO (as much as i like him), and jackson should be suspended the whole season. IMO, JO got the best punch. or wait...maybe that pick 7'5" 400 lb black guy wailing on our slam dunk champ.

I'M JUST GLAD THAT WE'RE NOT THE PORTLAND *edited* ANYMORE. CAN ANYBODY THINK OF A NAME FOR THE PACERS?


----------



## sweet_constipation

DaUnbreakableKinG, you know what I meant you pervert.


----------



## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Their is no justification to ever beat up a fan in his seat. I don't care WHAT they did.


what about getting stabbed in the back or getting jumped by two fans??


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>DaUnbreakableKinG</b>!
> 
> 
> Watch the replays on Sportcenter. Tell me where the whole thing starts. With Wallace "chokepunching" Artest or Artest making a stupid foul on Wallace?


Come on, that kind of foul happens all the time in NBA play. Wallace had no excuse to react the way he did. None. If anything, he should've maybe gotten in Artest's face and started jawing at him. But not basically stabbing him in the throat with his hands and still going after him even as Artest is backing away.


----------



## sweet_constipation

Rod Strickland, I got a name for them:
*Thug-Jitsu!*


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>DaUnbreakableKinG</b>!
> 
> 
> Watch the replays on Sportcenter. Tell me where the whole thing starts. With Wallace "chokepunching" Artest or Artest making a stupid foul on Wallace?


It was a freaking foul, nothing special about it. Just stop man, stop.


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

> Originally posted by <b>sweet_constipation</b>!
> DaUnbreakableKinG, you know what I meant you pervert.


:laugh: 

I know, I'm just kidding.


----------



## Spriggan

The Indiana FaceMisplacers?


----------



## kingofkings

It was just a matter of time before this kind of thing erupted in the NBA. You mix alcohol with a bunch of idiots and it erupts from there. Mix this in with the pressure of the situation, being Pacers v Pistons an intense rivalry and situation and it escalates.

There is no excuse for fans being on the court and disrespecting the players and the game, like the beer incident.

There is no excuse for fighting, but in my opinion, you have to see it from the players perspective. The pressure of the situation, being an intense game, that would have been planned for weeks in the leadup, mixed with someone throwing beer on you.

Of course they should have demonstrated restraint, but if someone threw beer on you, you would be pi'ssed and your natural aggression takes over. And you have to react....


----------



## Rod Strickland

hahaha....thug jitsu....um, i don't think that will draw enough attention off of the blazers. actually, they might forget about us being thugs and just conote us with overpaying our players!

anyways....i've followed JO since he was drafted. i was at the rose garden wondering why? we were the same age then. we've grown to both become great basketball players (hehe)...but unfortunately he made a huge mistake. 

as for ben, that guy blew up. it happens in games. what JO, Jackson, and ARTEST did was on a whole different level.

more power to you jones! hahah, and sheed!

hey you think the blazers can get JO back after his 1 yr suspension?

ROD


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

Pacers Battle Trash-Throwing Pistons Fans 



> Just when it appeared tempers had died down, Artest was struck by a cup thrown from the stands and jumped up and charged into the stands, throwing punches as he climbed over seats.
> 
> "He was on top of me, pummeling me," fan Mike Ryan of Clarkston said. "He asked me, `Did you do it? I said, `No, man. No!'"
> 
> Jackson joined Artest in the melee and threw punches at fans, who punched back at them.
> 
> Indiana's next game is Saturday night at home against Orlando, while Detroit hosts Charlotte on Sunday.


So will we know today later in the day if anyone is going to be suspended because Pacers play a game tonight?


And can anyone tell me why were they holding Hamilton back?? Did he want to fight with someone or what??


----------



## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> Wallace doesn't go insane after a type of foul that happens all the time and *none of this happens*.
> 
> Not only did he viciously "choke-punch" Artest, but he was still going after him even after *Artest was backing up, obviously trying to be the better person and not get into a fight.*


You see better man I see a man who was shook (who then displaced his aggression on an individual he felt sure of being able to smash).

“Better man”…That’s the age-old cowards mantra for classic, undeniable lack of grit (void of sand).


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife</b>!
> what about getting stabbed in the back or getting jumped by two fans??


Thats the thing. Where do you draw the line? A fan is pointing a gun at a player on the team they're rooting against, and a teammate of that player jumps into the crowd and knocks him out. Is that the players fault too? Gotta show more patience right? There is no reason to attack a fan right? That is ridiculous, poitn blank. 

I mean, these players aren't Jesus, they aren't in a professional basketball league because they are incredibly forgiving and patient. They play basketball. If a fan is less than 10 feet away ridiculing you for 2 hours straight, throwing things at you, and throwing his drink at you, he is asking to be knocked out. 

Stop placing unhuman expectations on players, and stop allowing fans to crucify players for 2 hours every night. The balance here isn't getting players to show more restraint, its getting fans to show more support for their team and not hate for the opposing team. 

NBA players do a fantastic job of keeping their cool 99.9% of the time, but one incident makes them look bad, and makes them look like they can't ever keep it together. NBA fans are ruthless 99.9% of the time, and that one 0.01 of the time where the player does lose his cool, the fan escapes with the title of the victim. Its *ridiculous*.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> 
> 
> You see better man I see a man who was shook (who then displaced his aggression on an individual he felt sure of being able to smash).


Artest was shook? Didn't really look scared to me. He was all nonchalant about it, waltzed over to the scorer's table and simply chilled there while Ben Wallace was acting like a savage and making a fool of himself. He was going after a guy with no intention of fighting. It was kind of sad to see.



> “Better man”…That’s the age-old cowards mantra for classic, undeniable lack of grit (void of sand).


That's just the kind of attitude that propagates violence on the streets. Good job.


----------



## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats the thing. Where do you draw the line? A fan is pointing a gun at a player on the team they're rooting against, and a teammate of that player jumps into the crowd and knocks him out. Is that the players fault too? Gotta show more patience right? There is no reason to attack a fan right? That is ridiculous, poitn blank.
> 
> I mean, these players aren't Jesus, they aren't in a professional basketball league because they are incredibly forgiving and patient. They play basketball. If a fan is less than 10 feet away ridiculing you for 2 hours straight, throwing things at you, and throwing his drink at you, he is asking to be knocked out.
> 
> Stop placing unhuman expectations on players, and stop allowing fans to crucify players for 2 hours every night. The balance here isn't getting players to show more restraint, its getting fans to show more support for their team and not hate for the opposing team.
> 
> NBA players do a fantastic job of keeping their cool 99.9% of the time, but one incident makes them look bad, and makes them look like they can't ever keep it together. NBA fans are ruthless 99.9% of the time, and that one 0.01 of the time where the player does lose his cool, the fan escapes with the title of the victim. Its *ridiculous*.


:yes:


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> Artest was shook? Didn't really look scared to me. He was all nonchalant about it, waltzed over to the scorer's table and simply chilled there while Ben Wallace was acting like a savage and making a fool of himself. He was going after a guy with no intention of fighting. It was kind of sad to see.


Artest had no interest of fighting when faced with the prospect of getting worked by Ben Wallace, but he jumped (literally) at the opportunity to beat up a skinny white guy.

What was sad was Artest going after a guy that not only had no intention of fighting, but also no chance of defending himself.


----------



## sweet_constipation

Repost:


> The Enigma, you bring up a good argument.
> Personally though, I think Artest was able to remain calm because he's been critized as someone that just loses it during games.....I do believe he is much improved compared to past seasons, and continues to work on it.
> That said, I think it took ALL of his patience.
> He just lost it when something as unexpectedly as a cup hits him directly in the face while he's trying to remain calm.
> Not an insult to Big Ben, but I know if I were Artest I'd rather face one individual that jump into a crowd of people where I can easily be dominated.
> 
> Just my take, but do see where you're coming from.




And Rod Strickland, I agree.
It's possible the term JailBlazers might be forgotten after this event. Especially if you guys get Carter.
That said........I still stick with *Thug-Jitsu!*


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Artest had no interest of fighting when faced with the prospect of getting worked by Ben Wallace, but he jumped (literally) at the opportunity to beat up a skinny white guy.


If Artest was shook, he probably wouldn't have taken his eyes off of Wallace completely when he decided to lay down. If he was really shook, he would have stayed back while keeping his eyes on Wallace.


----------



## sweet_constipation

nite y'all......time for sleep.
I wonder if this thread will be alive tomorrow........




Oh yeah.......one positive.....the guy Artest went after will probably sue and collect $$$ seeing as he wasn't the person that threw the drink.
:grinning:


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> NBA players do a fantastic job of keeping their cool 99.9% of the time, but one incident makes them look bad, and makes them look like they can't ever keep it together. NBA fans are ruthless 99.9% of the time, and that one 0.01 of the time where the player does lose his cool, the fan escapes with the title of the victim. Its *ridiculous*.


But their JOB is to keep their cool. That's what they get paid millions and millions and millions of dollars to do. And while nobody should ever have to deal with fans throwing things at them, no fan should ever have to feel threatened by a player charging the stands. There were plenty of innocent people in those first couple rows put in danger by the direct actions of Pacers players. A couple of them may have even caught punches. To me, player on fan violence is the ULTIMATE wrong in professional sports. 

To me, there is no way to justify starting a riot over spilled milk. Which is exactly what this was.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Artest had no interest of fighting when faced with the prospect of getting worked by Ben Wallace, but he jumped (literally) at the opportunity to beat up a skinny white guy.


Why do people see it this way? I don't get it. Where's the possibility that he was actually... restraining himself? What a reach. Did Artest look shook to you? What was it about his demeanor? The fact that he was basically mocking Wallace? Or like Johnny Mac said, that he just took his eyes off him and walked away? That means he was scared? Silly.



> What was sad was Artest going after a guy that not only had no intention of fighting, but also no chance of defending himself.


Artest was in berserker-mode and attacked the wrong guy, apparently, which was wrong. But I don't fault him for going up in the stands in the first place. Would you be saying that had he roughed up the right guy?


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> But their JOB is to keep their cool. That's what they get paid millions and millions and millions of dollars to do.


*edited* their job is to play the game of basketball, that's it.


----------



## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> But their JOB is to keep their cool. That's what they get paid millions and millions and millions of dollars to do. And while nobody should ever have to deal with fans throwing things at them, no fan should ever have to feel threatened by a player charging the stands. There were plenty of innocent people in those first couple rows put in danger by the direct actions of Pacers players. A couple of them may have even caught punches. To me, player on fan violence is the ULTIMATE wrong in professional sports.
> 
> To me, there is no way to justify starting a riot over spilled milk. Which is exactly what this was.


*edited*


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> *here is a working video if anyone wants it*
> 
> http://www.freecollegefootball.com/media/fight.mpg


Lets argue something more tangible.

Watch this video.

At the begining you can actually see the cup being tossed underhanded by a guy in a blue shirt and hat. Ron jumps off of the table and beats up a guy in a black shirt.

The guy that actually threw the cup was the guy behind Ron holding him by the waste trying to peel him off of the guy who did nothing wrong.

Ron got the wrong guy. There is video evidence to prove it.

Now there is no way in hell any sort of self defense argument can be used. Ron Artest beat up an inocent bystander.

To all the people praising Ron for his street justice, what do you say to the fact the he attacked an innocent fan who payed good money so he can live the good life? Or the fact that Stephen Jackson went up and just drilled another guy who did nothing wrong?

You see why you can't go into the stands? INNOCENT PEOPLE SUFFER.

I swear to God. Life time suspensions for both of them. Let the police deal with Jermaine's cheap shot and then punish him accordingly- but at least he wasn't in the stands when he viciously attacked a fan.

One thing that gets lost in this: that was an AMAZING toss. The guy was probably over 30 feet away from Ron and hit him square in the face tossing a cup underhand. After all this gets sorted out, he may have a future in horse shoes.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> But their JOB is to keep their cool. That's what they get paid millions and millions and millions of dollars to do. And while nobody should ever have to deal with fans throwing things at them, no fan should ever have to feel threatened by a player charging the stands. There were plenty of innocent people in those first couple rows put in danger by the direct actions of Pacers players. A couple of them may have even caught punches. To me, player on fan violence is the ULTIMATE wrong in professional sports.
> 
> To me, there is no way to justify starting a riot over spilled milk. Which is exactly what this was.


Their job is to keep their cool? No, their job is to play basketball. They are expected to keep their cool, just as much as fans are expected to be civil. With the way it is now, fans are out of control *every game* and players keep their cool, except for one night, tonight, and now the players get a bad image? Thats what I'm talking about. 

A fan should feel safe sitting in the first few rows, I agree. But players dont charge the stands randomly, they charge when they are pushed beyond the limit. Don't you think its better to try and get those fans to stop pushing limits, instead of trying to get players to continue to tolerate such an amazing amount of ridicule? 

The fact is, players come to the game to play the game. They have no intention of hurting fans, because they don't know anyone in the crowd. They have no reason to fight someone in the crowd. *Fans come to games with intent to heckle and ridicule players on opposing teams*, and thats the problem. Root for your own team, don't spend two hours trying to piss off the other team. 

When I was a player and played home games, I always thought that the people in the crowd who were heckling the other team were out of line. Sure, they were technically rooting for my team, but they spent more energy trying to heckle the other team than support the team they are supposedly rooting for. Thats pointless. 

There are too many fans do this, and it showed tonight. Ron Artest is heckled every night by a new set of fans who all have the same mentality, and he is expected to keep calm and tolerate it. I think its more logical to blame the mentality of those fans, then to blame Artest for losing it in one game after being attacked night after night every season.


----------



## socco

*edited: No personal attacks*


----------



## J19

This guy is an ***, he doesnt realize Ron didnt see who threw the drink at him, he just attacked the guy who was laughing an dmocking him


The kid looked obvious and guilty it was Ron's instinct 



He also hits the guy who really threw drink at him


----------



## ssmokinjoe

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> But their JOB is to keep their cool. That's what they get paid millions and millions and millions of dollars to do. And while nobody should ever have to deal with fans throwing things at them, no fan should ever have to feel threatened by a player charging the stands. There were plenty of innocent people in those first couple rows put in danger by the direct actions of Pacers players. A couple of them may have even caught punches. To me, player on fan violence is the ULTIMATE wrong in professional sports.
> 
> To me, there is no way to justify starting a riot over spilled milk. Which is exactly what this was.


You gotta be kidding me. A basketball player is man just like everyone else. You can give a man all the money in the world but in the end he's gonna react to things with emotion just like you and me. Everyone has their limits and some will break sooner than later, but it's not a fan's place to test those limits.


----------



## HKF

It's obvious that Mike has lost touch with reality. Simply put, he is blinded, by his love for the home team.

I'm not even a Pacer fan. If their job was to keep their cool, why didn't Ben Wallace? He sure wasn't cool and should have been ejected immediately. I guess that slipped your mind. 

I'm putting you on ignore now.


----------



## socco

Now that I look at it, I don't think I'd blame Artest for getting the wrong guy. He knew exactly where it came from, and he went after the guy that was being all cocky over there. As the guy said after the game, Artest was yelling "was it you, was it you" or something like that, and he was saying no. That may be why Ron got off of him and didn't really kick his ***.


----------



## ssmokinjoe

I'm proposing a new NBA rule: If a fan throws something at one of the players then he/she has earned the right to get his/her *** whooped by that player one on one before getting ejected from the building.


----------



## bballlife

Well that was quite an episode. Let me say this, there is not a person in that building that could take Ron Artest in a fight, thank god he didnt really have the chance to hurt someone.

I can't understand what Oneal was thinking when he smoked that fan? 

Just Crazy. And just for you information, I taped the game and watched the whole thing take place, Artest got the punk that originally threw the cup at him, Artest turned around because the dude was punching him in the face, and then he was done.


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>Velvet Jonez</b>!
> Damn monkeys running up and down the court bouncing a ball. Who the hell watches this crap anyways?
> 
> That was the most exciting thing to ever happen???
> 
> ***yawn***


Mods want to take care of this troll?


----------



## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> That's just the kind of attitude that propagates violence on the streets. Good job.


Really...

I beg to differ; the problems on “the streets” are the exact opposite.
You have guys who lack the grit and toughness to defend or maintain themselves without the aid of firearms. You have guys that cannot defend themselves and carry guns to feel tough. You have guys that lack the discipline to take a beating like men (without catching feelings and coming back with toast)

That is a coward my friend (that is what plagues “the streets” today).

If a man punches you in the face you prepare to fight it out, that is grit (the world would be a much better place if this was the way of the land but unfortunately cowards and passive aggressive rule the day).

-----

Regardless of what people say, what I saw was Artest deciding to play "the better man" in an instance where retaliation would have been understandable then going bananas in a situation that would have been better served by him being "the better man"

You put two and two together (who the punk is should be quite apparent)...


----------



## MLKG

It doesn't ****ing matter if Ron Artest didn't know he was beating up the wrong guy. HE BEAT UP THE WRONG ****ING GUY!!! How in the world can you even begin to justify that?!?!?!

How would you like it if you got half court courtside tickets to game, some ******* in the row ahead of you throws a drink at a player, and that player comes up and beats the **** out of YOU.

I'm not even talking about Ben Wallace HKF. What, you think I think Ben Wallace should be absolved of everything just because I have him in my avatar? Ben shouldn't have shoved Artest, but if you honestly think that is in anyway comparable to the assault of fans IN THE STANDS you are the one who has lost all touch with reality.

I'm not defending Pistons players here, I'm defending INNOCENT fans against the dangerous and irresponsible actions of these professional athletes.

I don't give a **** what happens to Ben Wallace, my concern is not with the Pistons players. Ben Wallace vs Ron Artest is small potatoes, it's an afterthought, in 20 years it won't even be remembered. What WILL always be remembered is Artest inciting a riot by ATTACKING fans. This was not self defense. It was a clear cut assault.

Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson BEAT UP paying customers who did nothing wrong.

Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson BEAT UP paying customers who did nothing wrong

Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson BEAT UP paying customers who did nothing wrong

Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson BEAT UP paying customers who did nothing wrong

How many times do I have to say this. It doesn't matter how hurt Artest's pride was. He ****ing clocked the wrong dude. An INNOCENT fan.

Notice I haven't brought up JO because while what he did was also wrong, at least he kept his senseless violence constrained to fans rushing the court.

Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson should never be allowed to play professional sports again. As an organization how can you trust these guys around your fans when at any given time they could be provoked to beat up a fan. Those guys that got hit are going to get a LOT of money out of this, and rightfully so.

I've dealt with all the crap from fans as a player too, and you know what? It really is not that hard to rise above it. Personally, I would never risk my career over an empty plastic cup. Ego be damned. The real mark of man is the ability to swallow your pride.


----------



## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson BEAT UP paying customers who did nothing wrong.
> 
> Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson BEAT UP paying customers who did nothing wrong
> 
> Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson BEAT UP paying customers who did nothing wrong
> 
> Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson BEAT UP paying customers who did nothing wrong


yes, you've lost touch with reality unless throwing beers at athletes has become acceptable in america.................


----------



## GBFanJ

All I can say is that I saw a disgrace in NBA basketball tonight. I watched the replay of the game on ESPN2 late tonight, and saw the whole thing, though I didn't overexamine it. I don't know who deserves the blame or who deserves what pubishment. I just hope that this can be resolved to satisfy most people, and that measures are taken to prevent this from happening again. Most games are controlled very well, though, and provide a good atmosphere for competition. Even though this is a very remote incident, I think that the reputation of the NBA is going to be tarnished as a result of what happened in Detroit.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson BEAT UP paying customers who did nothing wrong.


Fans have been attacking players who did nothing wrong every game of every season for many seasons. 

Stupid fans heckle and abuse opposing team, players keep cool, innocent fans enjoy game. 
Stupid fans heckle and abuse opposing team, players keep cool, innocent fans enjoy game. 
Stupid fans heckle and abuse opposing team, players keep cool, innocent fans enjoy game. 
Stupid fans heckle and abuse opposing team, players keep cool, innocent fans enjoy game. 
Stupid fans heckle and abuse opposing team, players keep cool, innocent fans enjoy game. 
Stupid fans heckle and abuse opposing team, players keep cool, innocent fans enjoy game. 

x 100

Then one time....

Stupid fans heckle, player can't deal with it and responds, innocent fans get hurt. 

You need to understand what is causing this. Its the rotten fans that ruin it for the innocent fans, not the players.


----------



## ssmokinjoe

What we want VS. the real world are two different things. That's why when you throw something at a player, expect the real world to come crashing down on you. Don't test "how things should be."


----------



## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> If Artest was shook, he probably wouldn't have taken his eyes off of Wallace completely when he decided to lay down. If he was really shook, he would have stayed back while keeping his eyes on Wallace.


Oh yes...

I suppose the 15 or so people feverishly fighting to keep the two separated had nothing to do with his comfort level.

----

- Two hand shiver to the neck = "better man"
- Beer to the neck = WWIII

The point of clarity is upon you.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> Oh yes...
> 
> I suppose the 15 or so people feverishly fighting to keep the two separated had nothing to do with his comfort level.
> 
> ----
> 
> - Two hand shiver to the neck = "better man"
> - Beer to the neck = WWIII
> 
> The point of clarity is upon you.


Since you love to approach this with such irrelevant logic, I'll take a stab at it. 

Two hand shiver to the neck = why fight back when there is "15 or so people feverishly fighting to keep the two seperated"

Beer to the neck = Ron Artest thinking "there is no one to hold me back inbetween and that guy who threw the beer at me, hes going to get smashed"


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>Velvet Jonez</b>!
> 
> 
> Go practice your dribble buckwheat.


I laugh because you won't be around these parts long. :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> Since you love to approach this with such irrelevant logic, I'll take a stab at it.


Why is my logic irrelevant? Is it simply because you disagree with it?

Good logic there.

------

Read up, my stance is clear and well documented along the course of this thread. I have simply scaled back my delivery in an attempt to (hopefully) connect with the yokels.


----------



## GBFanJ

On SportsCenter at 5:00 a.m., they did an in-depth look at the fight. There were even things shown that weren't seen before, such as an older woman on the floor, possibly injured. For now, I'm just watching things as they develop.


----------



## Pure Scorer

Ben Wallace gets mad that he got fouled by Ron Artest. Artest was going for the ball. Bad fundamental defense, but it happens alot in the NBA. Wallace gets mad, shoving ensues. Artest decides he's had enough **** lately, tries to calm down. He wants a piece of Ben Wallace, undoubtedly, but he cools down. He lies down on the scorers table. He's doing alright, he's cooling down. Everything is fine. He can atleast sympathize with what Ben Wallace did because he's been in the same situation before. Heat of the battle, you don't know what you're doing during a game. What happens on the court stays on the court.

Everything is fine, and then some idiot fan decides to be funny and throws a cup of beer at him. Malicious intent. There is no reason for the fan to do that. He is trying to provoke artest. Please give me an alterior motive from the fans perspective? There is none. The fan blatantly wanted to piss Artest off, and if you're a human, you don't like to be made a spectacle of, especially when you're trying hard to cool yourself down and do the right thing. It's simply insane for anyone to expect Artest to calmly get up, tell the fan off, and wait for security to get him out of the stands. There is no way someone who just walked away from a fight, tried to do the right thing, and then got major provocation would not do something drastic. And he did. The fan who threw the beer cup should not be allowed to ever watch an NBA game. If it was up to me Artest would not be suspended. However, the NBA is a business, and to save face they will suspend him for atleast 15 games imo(considering the Todd Bertuzzi incident and his suspension, 15 games seems a little light). 

Now we move on to Stephen Jackson. You're part of a team. If someone on your team is getting heckled, provoked, punched, you're going to fight back. I played on a hockey team and this happened a lot. I haven't been involved in many fist fights off the ice, but i was in quite a few big fights just trying to back up my teammates. And the fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter whether its fans or the other team throwing punches, or if you're going to get suspended. All that matters is that they're throwing punches, and your teammate is the one getting hit. That is your mindset. He should be suspended for 5-7 games, as an example. What he did is justifiable, but you have to make sure players know that following a teammate into a fight, whether it is right or wrong, is not tolerable. 

Jermaine O'Neal i can't explain. I have no clue why he would do that. That was vicious. To say he was trying to protect his teammates..Well, why didn't he just hold the guy back. He was looking to injure that guy. Sure the other guy shouldn't have been on the court, but lunging into him and throwing a haymaker...definitely not explainable. The guy he punched probably has a concussion, and a pretty serious one at that. A 8-15 game suspension should be handed out, depending on the severity of the mans injuries. That was a brutal punch. It would be a lot more if the guy wasn't on the court, but considering he was a fan trying to get in on the action it isn't as serious imo.

Ben Wallace should serve a 1-3 game suspension.

The pistons should be fined as an organization. The league needs to do something to get back at the fans for their unruly behaviour. Maybe move the Pistons to chicago and give Detroit the bulls? That would make them suffer plenty.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> Why is my logic irrelevant? Is it simply because you disagree with it?


No, because its all built on assumptions, just like the theory/scenario I replied with. You assume that Artest is scared of Wallace, which is why he went after the fan and not Wallace, I assumed that Artest would rather go after the fan since he, like Wallace, also insulted Artest but the fan was much easier to get to. Both scenarios are irrelevant because nobody knows what Artest was thinking.


----------



## HKF

Those two fans who went on the court looking for a fight and subsequently got pummeled, will get nothing and I don't know how you can suspend O'Neal for a lot of games, because some idiot ran on the court. 

It's like when the fans storm the court and some of the players pop them. You can get injured when you do that. 

Stay off the court, if you're a fan and don't throw stuff. You're not there to be apart of the action.

I'm a fan, but I'm not defending the evil side of fandom. This hopefully will clean up some of the fandom. Maybe if fans know they might have to knucle up, they won't try to provoke the athletes.

Detroit is known for this stuff. The stuff they said to Desmond Mason last year in the Milwaukee series, would have made a less patient man fight. 

Just some punks, the majority of them are. Fugazi's.


----------



## lw32

Artest probably thought this out very carefully. Remember his album is coming out November 24th, well what a great idea to get time off to promote it by getting yourself suspended for a while by attacking fans in the crowd. Because Coach Carlisle told him he can't have the month break he wished for, perhaps Artest decided to ensure he could have the break by going crazy.
I'm only kidding, but would it be out of Artest's mind to actually think of this? .


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> 
> 
> Really...
> 
> I beg to differ; the problems on “the streets” are the exact opposite.
> You have guys who lack the grit and toughness to defend or maintain themselves without the aid of firearms. You have guys that cannot defend themselves and carry guns to feel tough. You have guys that lack the discipline to take a beating like men (without catching feelings and coming back with toast)


So you're saying it would be acceptable if they simply used their fists to beat someone half to death then? 

No, it doesn't solve anything. Violence doesn't beget violence. There is no difference between shooting someone to death and beating them to death. You think fist fights on the street are like normal fights? No, most often they lead to irreparable damage to at least one of the people involved. You can't blame them for packing heat. I probably would be too.



> If a man punches you in the face you prepare to fight it out, that is grit (the world would be a much better place if this was the way of the land but unfortunately cowards and passive aggressive rule the day).


Ben Wallace didn't punch Artest in the face. He shoved him.



> Regardless of what people say, what I saw was Artest deciding to play "the better man" in an instance where retaliation would have been understandable then going bananas in a situation that would have been better served by him being "the better man"
> 
> You put two and two together (who the punk is should be quite apparent)...


You make little sense. You consistently talk about "grit", but what would you do if I came up to you and nailed you in the face with a cup of beer? You'd strike back. Why is there such a big difference between a shove and getting pelted in the face by a cup? There isn't. Just because Artest reacted to one and not the other means nothing. 

Think about it: Artest could have swung at Wallace, maybe gotten a hit in, and the fight would have been broken up in 2 seconds and he'd be facing a suspension and fine. And another hit to his reputation. He was *clearly* trying to avoid that, but Wallace obviously pissed him off. He tried to calm himself down and defuse the situation, but the idiot fan was the last straw.


----------



## RomaVictor

*Here we go*

Sure, there are "thugs" who carry guns because they can't fight or because they WANT to start trouble(or maybe even because they're uh...criminals?) but there are those of us who carry guns because it's our f-ing right as citizens and citizens kill fewer innocent bystanders than cops do. 

If someone is trying to stick me up with a knife, they're going to get the business end of a gun. People don't go up to me or most people just punching them and trying to duke it out Marquess of Queensbury-style. If someone hits you for no reason on the street(i mean, out of the blue) you have every reason to be in fear for your life, especially if it's more than one.

I don't get into "fights" in the street and wouldn't use my gun unless I, or someone else, were in mortal danger(including 5 people trying to beat my *** to death)

Fights in the street these days are not good-natured fisticuffs, people get maimed for life and killed in those things. I don't have to sit there and take it because someone thinks I'm not "manning up" to take my "beating."

If someone tries to rape a woman and I stumble across it, I'll be able to assist no matter what that dude is bringing. 
When I got chased by a pitbull, I did everything I could to avoid letting loose with my pistol and solved the situation without it, PRECISELY BECAUSE I had it.
Now, if I didn't have it and that dog had a bite of my leg, a knife or gun is the only thing that's going to save me.

People who are law-abiding citizens who carry are not "cowards" they're citizens who take a heck of a lot more responsibility when it comes to conflict than the average non-carrying citizen.
So can the "grit" nonsense or whatever you're talking about Enigma. Maybe what you're saying applies to 13 year olds in the neighborhood, but it does not apply to the world of grown men.

/Rant off


----------



## Season of Shaq

*The Biggest Winner of the Night?*

The guy that Artest attacked in the first place - you know, the guy that DIDN'T throw the beer?


Who all will/can he sue? (Feel free to add to the list)

1. Ron Artest
2. The Palace of Auburn Hills/Event Staff
3. The NBA
4. Santa Claus


----------



## Numbed One

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> You make little sense. You consistently talk about "grit", but what would you do if I came up to you and nailed you in the face with a cup of beer? You'd strike back. Why is there such a big difference between a shove and getting pelted in the face by a cup? There isn't. Just because Artest reacted to one and not the other means nothing.


There is a difference between retalitation towards a player and retaliation towards a fan. Retaliating against a player on the floor is one thing. Retalitating against a fan is a whole different, dispicable animal. Just because the fan instigated it doesn't give Ron the right to go in the crowd and start throwing punches.




> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> Think about it: Artest could have swung at Wallace, maybe gotten a hit in, and the fight would have been broken up in 2 seconds and he'd be facing a suspension and fine. And another hit to his reputation. He was *clearly* trying to avoid that, but Wallace obviously pissed him off. He tried to calm himself down and defuse the situation, but the idiot fan was the last straw.


Artest gets no credit for "holding back." The suspension, fine and hit to his reputation he will recieve for attacking the fans will be MUCH, MUCH more severe than any punishment he would have recieved for throwing a punch at Wallace.


----------



## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> No, because its all built on assumptions, just like the theory/scenario I replied with. You assume that Artest is scared of Wallace, which is why he went after the fan and not Wallace, I assumed that Artest would rather go after the fan since he, like Wallace, also insulted Artest but the fan was much easier to get to. Both scenarios are irrelevant because nobody knows what Artest was thinking.


This is my opinion. I do not claim my stance to be definitive. My opinion has a basis in that I am actually attempting to analyze the behavior. You on the other hand dabble in pure speculation as to what Artest is thinking.

P.S. Basically your stance is that when faced with a heated confrontation and a situation of escalating friction Artest opted for the path of least resistance.

This is what you are saying (correct)?

That (my friend) is the signature of a coward. This was the point given in my initial post.


----------



## AMR

As a non-British I won't use this brawl to bash an entire country, including their olympic bids.


----------



## AranhaHunter

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> So you're saying it would be acceptable if they simply used their fists to beat someone half to death then?
> 
> No, it doesn't solve anything. Violence doesn't beget violence. There is no difference between shooting someone to death and beating them to death. You think fist fights on the street are like normal fights? No, most often they lead to irreparable damage to at least one of the people involved. You can't blame them for packing heat. I probably would be too.
> 
> 
> 
> Ben Wallace didn't punch Artest in the face. He shoved him.
> 
> 
> 
> You make little sense. You consistently talk about "grit", but what would you do if I came up to you and nailed you in the face with a cup of beer? You'd strike back. Why is there such a big difference between a shove and getting pelted in the face by a cup? There isn't. Just because Artest reacted to one and not the other means nothing.
> 
> Think about it: Artest could have swung at Wallace, maybe gotten a hit in, and the fight would have been broken up in 2 seconds and he'd be facing a suspension and fine. And another hit to his reputation. He was *clearly* trying to avoid that, but Wallace obviously pissed him off. He tried to calm himself down and defuse the situation, but the idiot fan was the last straw.



I think Ron Artest just knows that Big Ben will **** him up. Like I said in the other thread, if it was T. Prince shoving him like that, would he just walk away. But he knows better since it's Big Ben.

I also agree with RomaVictor and Season of Shaq. I wish I was that goofy guy that got attacked by Artest. He didn't throw the beer, he was just chilling, it's been shown, and he got hit by Artest and Jackson. Congratulations new millionaire man.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> P.S. Basically your stance is that when faced with a heated confrontation and a situation of escalating friction Artest opted for the path of least resistance.


No, I never said that was my stance, I made it up to prove that it was equally as credible as yours, and it is. 



> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> This is what you are saying (correct)?
> 
> That (my friend) is the signature of a coward. This was the point given in my initial post.


If you're making strawman arguments, sure. Of course, its irrelevant, like a lot of what you're saying, because I didn't make those arguments that you're debating. 

My stance is this...Players keep their cool 99.9% of the time when fans ridicule players. It happens every game, every season, every arena. Players do a fantastic job of that, even Ron Artest. The one time that those malicious fans get retaliated against, they are made out to be like victims, when on any average night they are in attack mode on these players. Its the fans that have to change, not the players. Players dont enter games looking to piss off fans, they just want to play the game and win. Fans come into games looking to piss off the players on the opposing team, and thats what needs to be changed.


----------



## JoeD

I would agree that Artest was afraid of Wallace and would rather go for fans half his size. First, look at Artests face when Wallace was after him, it was pretty clear he was afraid. And second, the people Artest goes for aren't even the people that threw the drink at him... It seems like he just wanted to take it out on someone else.


----------



## AranhaHunter

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> No, I never said that was my stance, I made it up to prove that it was equally as credible as yours, and it is.
> 
> 
> 
> If you're making strawman arguments, sure. Of course, its irrelevant, like a lot of what you're saying, because I didn't make those arguments that you're debating.
> 
> My stance is this...Players keep their cool 99.9% of the time when fans ridicule players. It happens every game, every season, every arena. Players do a fantastic job of that, even Ron Artest. The one time that those malicious fans get retaliated against, they are made out to be like victims, when on any average night they are in attack mode on these players. Its the fans that have to change, not the players. Players dont enter games looking to piss off fans, they just want to play the game and win. Fans come into games looking to piss off the players on the opposing team, and thats what needs to be changed.


That will never happen


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>AranhaHunter</b>!
> 
> 
> That will never happen


Doesn't mean it shouldn't change.


----------



## RomaVictor

*After the Cubs base coach beating*

Wasn't that the big outcry, that fans had to change(or some of them?)

Now, the fans act even more disgracefully and the outrage should be directed at---the players?


----------



## italianBBlover

Funny to see those things in the usual "quiet" NBA arenas :laugh: 

Anyway a bad thing, for sure !

This kind of things isn't rare in Europe, but usually is between fans and fans, not between fans and players ! 
The space between the parquet and the seats is here bigger and more protected by the arena's security.


----------



## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> So you're saying it would be acceptable if they simply used their fists to beat someone half to death then?
> 
> No, it doesn't solve anything. Violence doesn't beget violence. There is no difference between shooting someone to death and beating them to death. You think fist fights on the street are like normal fights? No, most often they lead to irreparable damage to at least one of the people involved.


There is a difference between having a fight and beating someone to death (I think). _Subtle_ but if you seek you shall find.

Pinning up energies then lashing out elsewhere is no better (in fact it is worse). If Artest displayed the cooler head throughout I would be here commending him for his self-restraint and composure (bit this is not the case).

P.S. Why do you continually revert to this "the streets" stuff? What exactly does a fight on a basketball court have to do with "the streets"?



> You can't blame them for packing heat. I probably would be too.


What a guy...



> Ben Wallace didn't punch Artest in the face. He shoved him.
> 
> You make little sense. You consistently talk about "grit", but what would you do if I came up to you and nailed you in the face with a cup of beer? You'd strike back. Why is there such a big difference between a shove and getting pelted in the face by a cup? There isn't. Just because Artest reacted to one and not the other means nothing.


I would retaliate, but then again, I would retaliate to the shove as well (this is my point). Why the selective retaliation.



> Think about it: Artest could have swung at Wallace, maybe gotten a hit in, and the fight would have been broken up in 2 seconds and he'd be facing a suspension and fine. And another hit to his reputation. He was *clearly* trying to avoid that, but Wallace obviously pissed him off. He tried to calm himself down and defuse the situation, but the idiot fan was the last straw.


My friend, last straws do not cut it in our legal system. A fight on the court may not be the most appealing thing but as undesirable as it may be it is a part of the game. Fights between paid performers and paying customers (in their seats no less) quite simply is not and falls into a separate category all together. 

_I apologize that I could not get more in depth in my response but I am occupied at the moment (call this the abbreviated response)._


----------



## HKF

*Re: After the Cubs base coach beating*



> Originally posted by <b>RomaVictor</b>!
> Wasn't that the big outcry, that fans had to change(or some of them?)
> 
> Now, the fans act even more disgracefully and the outrage should be directed at---the players?


Remember the vitriol Pistons fans had for Desmond Mason during the Milwaukee-Detroit series. This is par for the course for them.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Numbed One</b>!
> 
> 
> There is a difference between retalitation towards a player and retaliation towards a fan. Retaliating against a player on the floor is one thing. Retalitating against a fan is a whole different, dispicable animal. Just because the fan instigated it doesn't give Ron the right to go in the crowd and start throwing punches.


Why not? I'll just randomly throw a bottle and hit you in the face next time I see you. For no particular reason. Just because I instigated it doesn't give you the right to do anything about it, though.



> Artest gets no credit for "holding back." The suspension, fine and hit to his reputation he will recieve for attacking the fans will be MUCH, MUCH more severe than any punishment he would have recieved for throwing a punch at Wallace.


And? I don't think Artest has the ability to look into the future, or he may have decided to fight Wallace instead.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> P.S. Basically your stance is that when faced with a heated confrontation and a situation of escalating friction Artest opted for the path of least resistance.


"Path of least resistance"?

Hilarious.

On one hand, you have a fight with an NBA player that would have lasted two seconds before being broken up. On the other hand, you have Artest charging into the stands full of *hundreds of fans of the opposing team who hate his guts*.

Yet somehow, the latter is the "path of least resistance". Go figure.


----------



## The Enigma

*Re: Here we go*



> Originally posted by <b>RomaVictor</b>!
> Sure, there are "thugs" who carry guns because they can't fight or because they WANT to start trouble(or maybe even because they're uh...criminals?) but there are those of us who carry guns because it's our f-ing right as citizens and citizens kill fewer innocent bystanders than cops do.
> 
> If someone is trying to stick me up with a knife, they're going to get the business end of a gun. People don't go up to me or most people just punching them and trying to duke it out Marquess of Queensbury-style. If someone hits you for no reason on the street(i mean, out of the blue) you have every reason to be in fear for your life, especially if it's more than one.
> 
> I don't get into "fights" in the street and wouldn't use my gun unless I, or someone else, were in mortal danger(including 5 people trying to beat my *** to death)
> 
> Fights in the street these days are not good-natured fisticuffs, people get maimed for life and killed in those things. I don't have to sit there and take it because someone thinks I'm not "manning up" to take my "beating."
> 
> If someone tries to rape a woman and I stumble across it, I'll be able to assist no matter what that dude is bringing.
> When I got chased by a pitbull, I did everything I could to avoid letting loose with my pistol and solved the situation without it, PRECISELY BECAUSE I had it.
> Now, if I didn't have it and that dog had a bite of my leg, a knife or gun is the only thing that's going to save me.
> 
> People who are law-abiding citizens who carry are not "cowards" they're citizens who take a heck of a lot more responsibility when it comes to conflict than the average non-carrying citizen.
> So can the "grit" nonsense or whatever you're talking about Enigma. Maybe what you're saying applies to 13 year olds in the neighborhood, but it does not apply to the world of grown men.
> 
> /Rant off



Relax Lone Ranger you have missed my point.

I do not carry guns on my civilian person at all times but I do own my fair share of firearms. This is not a right to bare arms debate.

P.S. being an individual that works in the field of law enforcement I implore you to leave the law enforcement and public justice to us (save your go go gadget bat belt for protection of the home).


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> 
> 
> There is a difference between having a fight and beating someone to death (I think). _Subtle_ but if you seek you shall find.


Wow, yes. And how do you think fights on the street end? With a hearty handshake and a "good fight man"? Welcome to reality.



> Pinning up energies then lashing out elsewhere is no better (in fact it is worse). If Artest displayed the cooler head throughout I would be here commending him for his self-restraint and composure (bit this is not the case).


No, instead he displays the cooler head with the Wallace ordeal and you call him a sissy.



> P.S. Why do you continually revert to this "the streets" stuff? What exactly does a fight on a basketball court have to do with "the streets"?


You're the one who keeps reverting to it. I made one off-hand comment about it. Are you confused?



> I would retaliate, but then again, I would retaliate to the shove as well (this is my point). Why the selective retaliation.


Because he wasn't angered enough by Wallace, but the fan pushed him over the edge?

This really isn't difficult.



> My friend, last straws do not cut it in our legal system. A fight on the court may not be the most appealing thing but as undesirable as it may be it is a part of the game. Fights between paid performers and paying customers (in their seats no less) quite simply is not and falls into a separate category all together.


Tell that to the fan who instigated it.



> _I apologize that I could not get more in depth in my response but I am occupied at the moment (call this the abbreviated response)._


That's okay. I look forward to your next non-sensical response.


----------



## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> You're the one who keeps reverting to it. I made one off-hand comment about it. Are you confused?


This is inaccurate. My only reference to "the streets" was in response to you.


----------



## Numbed One

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> Why not? I'll just randomly throw a bottle and hit you in the face next time I see you. For no particular reason. Just because I instigated it doesn't give you the right to do anything about it, though.


OBVIOUSLY the circumstances are different at an NBA game. Its not like Artest was some random guy walking down the street. And it was a plastic beer cup. And it hit him in the chest, not the face.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> 
> 
> This is inaccurate. My only reference to "the streets" was in response to you.


You say I "keep reverting to it" when all I'm doing is refuting you.

You're ignorant. People don't pack heat on the streets because they're cowards. They do so because they have to. It's dog eat dog. You'd probably be the type of person who brings a knife to a gun fight, to prove you're not a "coward". Till you're laying there with a bullet-hole in your forehead, of course. You won't be much of anything then.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Numbed One</b>!
> 
> 
> OBVIOUSLY the circumstances are different at an NBA game. Its not like Artest was some random guy walking down the street. And it was a plastic beer cup. And it hit him in the chest, not the face.


No, it's not that Artest was a random guy. It's that the fan was a random guy. And why are the circumstances different at an NBA game? Why? Tell me exactly what the difference is between the guy pelting Ron Artest with a beer cup and me pelting you with one. 

And yes, it actually struck his face as well.


----------



## bigalw1414

I like the idea of Pacers/Pistons playing the remaining Detroit home games in empty arenas.


----------



## Kunlun

How would you people feel if you were the innocent man who was laughing? Did you deserve that punch? No. Look at it from the fan's perspective.


----------



## Cockney

Damn...

Look what they did at the RealGM.com Forum because of this fight...

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=303266


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>KL Dawger</b>!
> How would you people feel if you were the innocent man who was laughing? Did you deserve that punch? No. Look at it from the fan's perspective.


If I was that fan, I'd be more upset with the fan who actually threw the drink. Ron Artest wasn't going to beat me up until that fan provoked him.


----------



## BallStateCards

Legally, Ron Artest did nothing wrong. If something hits him, he can legally claim self-defense.

Ben Wallace, by NBA rules, threw a punch. He shoved Artest forcefully in the neck. Its the same as a punch. Also Artest did not foul him hard at all, you can't claim him as the instigator.

Stephen Jackson was with Artest. If your friend/brother/teammate is in trouble, you help him out. That's just the way it is.

Any fan on the court will be taken as havinvg malicious intent. I don't care if Artest threw the first punch, the fan was on the court. That too is why O'Neal's punch is justified.

Artest would have been applauded if this were a normal game and a fight didn't break out. He got punched, the benches poured out, and what did Artest do? He laid on the scorer's table and cooled off. You could see he was worked up because on the videos you can see him breathing rather hard (like people do frequently in those situations). The only thing is, if a player is worked up, and you throw something at him, what do you expect?

Lastly, hopefully fans can now be viewed as being at fault in a lot of these situations now. Milton Bradley got the blame when he threw a bottle into the stands earlier this year. The bottle was originally thrown at his head. Who got the blame? Bradley, of course. Fans aren't always innocent. Here's proof of that...


----------



## Cockney

Damn....That guy from "FSN Southwest" makes me laugh so hard.

He is in total panic, screaming:"Wurrrrr is the securrrrity ?"


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>ClayVTrainum</b>!
> Legally, Ron Artest did nothing wrong. If something hits him, he can legally claim self-defense.
> 
> Ben Wallace, by NBA rules, threw a punch. He shoved Artest forcefully in the neck. Its the same as a punch. Also Artest did not foul him hard at all, you can't claim him as the instigator.
> 
> Stephen Jackson was with Artest. If your friend/brother/teammate is in trouble, you help him out. That's just the way it is.
> 
> Any fan on the court will be taken as havinvg malicious intent. I don't care if Artest threw the first punch, the fan was on the court. That too is why O'Neal's punch is justified.
> 
> Artest would have been applauded if this were a normal game and a fight didn't break out. He got punched, the benches poured out, and what did Artest do? He laid on the scorer's table and cooled off. You could see he was worked up because on the videos you can see him breathing rather hard (like people do frequently in those situations). The only thing is, if a player is worked up, and you throw something at him, what do you expect?
> 
> Lastly, hopefully fans can now be viewed as being at fault in a lot of these situations now. Milton Bradley got the blame when he threw a bottle into the stands earlier this year. The bottle was originally thrown at his head. Who got the blame? Bradley, of course. Fans aren't always innocent. Here's proof of that...


You're completely out of your mind if you think Artest can legally jump into the stands and go after a guy for throwing a weightless plastic cup 1/4 full of beer at him. And then hit an innocent bystander.

You're completely out of your mind if you think Stephen Jackson legally had a right to start punching people that were just nearby.

You're completely out of your mind if you think O'Neal could legally hit someone (so hard that injury was a real possibility), who was not posing an immediate threat to anyone, and was in fact being restrained.


----------



## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> No, I never said that was my stance, I made it up to prove that it was equally as credible as yours, and it is.


It is not. 



> If you're making straw man arguments, sure. Of course, its irrelevant, like a lot of what you're saying, because I didn't make those arguments that you're debating.


What about my point (Artest was out of line to take a cheap shot in a decided contest and to take the fight into the stands - as a side note he appeared to want no part in an altercation coming his way on the court) lacks legs exactly?

I like the rest of your post by the way (I will respond to it later tonight)... Strapped for time.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> You're completely out of your mind if you think O'Neal could legally hit someone (so hard that injury was a real possibility), who was not posing an immediate threat to anyone, and was in fact being restrained.


That's the thing that strikes me most about this. People keep talking about Artest and Jackson, but Jermaine's gonna get the brunt of this I think.

He flew in like Superman and cold-cocked a fan who had nothing to do with anything. Yes, he was on the court, but he never provoked anyone or did anything.

Jermaine is gonna get some serious **** for that.


----------



## Cockney

Has anyone got that Video where Fred Jones is attacked ?

I've seen everything except two scenes:

- Fred Jones is getting attacked

- Ron Artest attacks that old bald headed guy with the blue top

Can anyone get those videos here ?


----------



## Zach

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He flew in like Superman and cold-cocked a fan who had nothing to do with anything. Yes, he was on the court, but he never provoked anyone or did anything.
> 
> .



That was the fan that approached Artest.


----------



## NYKBaller

He attacked his teammate, deserved it...


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Zach</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> That was the fan that approached Artest.


No, it wasn't. It was his fat friend. The guy who Artest got into it was wearing a Pistons jersey. The guy who Jermaine destroyed was some other fattie in a black shirt, I think it was.


----------



## Zach

I saw a clip of a little boy no older than 8 maybe was in his older brother's arms and crying. When there dad showed up, he was the black guy in the gray longsleeve shirt whom was taking part in beating up the Pacers. What a great role model. Right in front of his kids. :no:


----------



## NYKBaller

*What I don't understand is...*

Out of any player in the league to throw something at, you aim at Ron Artest. RON ARTEST! Fans fault....


----------



## Zach

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> No, it wasn't. It was his fat friend. The guy who Artest got into it was wearing a Pistons jersey. The guy who Jermaine destroyed was some other fattie in a black shirt, I think it was.


No it was a white pistons jersey. Watch it again. He had a black shirt draped over his shoulder, I think. But he was had a Pistons jersey. Go to ESPN right now, you'll see.


----------



## italianBBlover

Lol, look the homepage of the most famous italian sport-paper "Gazzetta dello sport" (the one in pink)

http://www.gazzetta.it



And look at the bottom of the page "La foto" ("The photo"): the caption is "Artest to tie" :laugh:


----------



## NYKBaller

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> No, it wasn't. It was his fat friend. The guy who Artest got into it was wearing a Pistons jersey. The guy who Jermaine destroyed was some other fattie in a black shirt, I think it was.












He's wearing a Pistons jersey...


----------



## hobojoe

I'm not going to read through an entire 58 page thread, but quickly these are my thoughts on the issue:

1. I applaud Ron Artest for controlling himself as much as he did yesterday. I think it's a bit much to ask him not to react at all to have beer thrown at him while he was simply laying down on the scorers table. 

2. Pistons Ceo Tom Wilson is an idiot. Did anyone hear him indirectly saying that it was Artest's fault that he got hit with beer because he was laying on the scorers table, not on the court like he should've been? What a moron.

3. I doubt the Pacers will return to Detroit in March to play the game. I just can't see the NBA allowing them to go back to Detroit after what happened tonight, and I'd expect a hell of a lot of security in Indiana when they play Detroit on Christmas.

4. If they hand out suspensions according to the rules, every player on both teams will be suspended. Who didn't either leave the bench or go into the stands, or both? I know it's completely idiotic to expect the players to stay on the bench during a situation like, but still, I'm just saying what theoretically should happen according to the rules.

5. If indeed all players(or most) are suspended, the teams will stagger the suspensions.

6. Anyone who wants to see the video and has ESPN Motion, here's the link.


----------



## italianBBlover

There is a video too

http://www.gazzetta.it/gazzetta/com...a-Detroit, immagini tratte da www.detnews.com


----------



## Kunlun

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> If I was that fan, I'd be more upset with the fan who actually threw the drink. Ron Artest wasn't going to beat me up until that fan provoked him.


So you would be fine with Artest then? If I was him I would swear revenge and take Artest out with a baseball bat one day.


----------



## Zach

On a ESPN poll, 33% said Artest is to blame, 51% say the fans, and ONLY 8% said Ben Wallace. WTF?


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Zach</b>!
> 
> 
> No it was a white pistons jersey. Watch it again. He had a black shirt draped over his shoulder, I think. But he was had a Pistons jersey. Go to ESPN right now, you'll see.


Trust me man. Jermaine hit a different guy. I have the video right here. I have two of them, from two different angles, but one of them shows plainly that it was a different guy. I just watched it again. The guy who Artest punched was standing a few feet away being restrained (he was wearing a blue shirt underneath a Pistons jersey) when Jermaine launches himself and punches some other fat guy who was wearing only a white Pistons shirt. The guy Jermaine decked was just getting up from having gotten into it with Chuck Person when Jermaine wailed on him.


----------



## Zach

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> 
> 
> and I'd expect a hell of a lot of security in Indiana when they play Detroit on Christmas.


I expect to see alot more control by the Pacers fans.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> What about my point (Artest was out of line to take a cheap shot in a decided contest and to take the fight into the stands - as a side note he appeared to want no part in an altercation coming his way on the court) lacks legs exactly?


Artest has never been predictable. I really doubt he has any *fear* of anyone. Who knows whats going through his head? I'd take a handful of explanations before I believe that Ron Artest is *scared* of Ben Wallace, whether or not he should be, whether or not Wallace would beat the daylights out of him. 

Either way, I don't think its all that important to figure out why Artest decided to go after the fan, and not to go after Wallace. There are a lot of reasonable explanations (which includes yours), but even if we settled on one, what does that do for us? I still think the fan situation being out of control is the sole reason for all of this.


----------



## Spriggan

Not only that, but throwing something at Ron Artest when he's trying to calm himself after receiving dual and simultaneous throat-chops from Big Ben Wallace.

Talk about tossing fuel into the fire. Idiot fan.


----------



## Johnny Mac

Damn Spriggan, you're right. I thought he hit the same guy too, but looking at the video again, the guy Jermaine hit was wearing a white Pistons jersey and a white shirt under it. The guy who approached Artest was wearing a white Pistons jersey with a blue shirt under it, and a hat.


----------



## Zach

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Either way, I don't think its all that important to figure out why Artest decided to go after the fan, and not to go after Wallace. There are a lot of reasonable explanations (which includes yours), but even if we settled on one, what does that do for us? I still think the fan situation being out of control is the sole reason for all of this.



Let me bust out a theory:

Artest has a knack for getting in trouble, we know that. Maybe he was trying to saty clear of Wallace so as not to start anything and get suspended. But then, fans start heckling the crap out of him and start throwing FULL cups of beer at him and hit him in the face. He then gets up and proceeds to beat the living piss out of the person who did it. Then someone else tries to punch Artest and 'OH MY GOD!!' who does Stephen Jackson think he is, going up there and trying to protect his teammates? And then what happened, happened.


----------



## Zach

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> Trust me man. Jermaine hit a different guy. I have the video right here. I have two of them, from two different angles, but one of them shows plainly that it was a different guy. I just watched it again. The guy who Artest punched was standing a few feet away being restrained (he was wearing a blue shirt underneath a Pistons jersey) when Jermaine launches himself and punches some other fat guy who was wearing only a white Pistons shirt. The guy Jermaine decked was just getting up from having gotten into it with Chuck Person when Jermaine wailed on him.



Damnit!! You are right. 

:worship: 

Bow down to Spriggan. DO IT NOW!!!

It looked like the same guy.


----------



## BallStateCards

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>
> You're completely out of your mind if you think Artest can legally jump into the stands and go after a guy for throwing a weightless plastic cup 1/4 full of beer at him. And then hit an innocent bystander.


Officer on Sportscenter said the reaction after being hit with something can make a pretty good case as self defense.

Innocent bystander? He may have not been the guy who threw the cup, but watch the video, he is in no way innocent.



> You're completely out of your mind if you think Stephen Jackson legally had a right to start punching people that were just nearby.


He jumped in after Artest, Artest is surrounded by people wanting to hit him. Hell, the guy who pulled Artest back was the same giuy who was punching him in the back of the head seconds later. No one who was still in that area is innocent. 



> You're completely out of your mind if you think O'Neal could legally hit someone (so hard that injury was a real possibility), who was not posing an immediate threat to anyone, and was in fact being restrained.


The fact that the fan is on the court is an immediate threat. Him and another guy rushed the court towards Artest. They didn't go that far just to stand and stare. Artest and O'Neal's punch just ended it before it started.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Zach</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Let me bust out a theory:
> 
> Artest has a knack for getting in trouble, we know that. Maybe he was trying to saty clear of Wallace so as not to start anything and get suspended. But then, fans start heckling the crap out of him and start throwing FULL cups of beer at him and hit him in the face. He then gets up and proceeds to beat the living piss out of the person who did it. Then someone else tries to punch Artest and 'OH MY GOD!!' who does Stephen Jackson think he is, going up there and trying to protect his teammates? And then what happened, happened.


Exactly.

Although Jackson... damn. He was laying out anyone within a two foot radius of him. He went insane. 

It's funny how Stephen Jackson goes berserk on several fans, Jermaine has by far the hardest punch of the night, Wallace basically instigates the whole thing, yet Artest gets all the blame.

Not fair.


----------



## Zach

I will say this, whoever got punched by Jermaine when he did the Superman act, got knocked the **** out!!!!!


----------



## BallStateCards

After hearing other players' reactions, any suspensions to the Pacers and others will probably be fought by the Players' Association...


----------



## RomaVictor

*Re: Re: Here we go*



> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> P.S. being an individual that works in the field of law enforcement I implore you to leave the law enforcement and public justice to us (save your go go gadget bat belt for protection of the home).


Uh, yeah, except cops take longer than the pizza man to get to a home and are of no use at all if something is in the process of GOING DOWN AT THAT MOMENT. uh DUH, or you never heard the phrase "you can't rape a .38?"(though that's more for women, I suppose.)

"in the field of" what are you a secretary at the local PD? 
:grinning: 

Another law enforcement type who thinks he's a Lord and the peasants should only have the ability to call on his assistance, but never take that right and responsibility for themselves.


----------



## Zach

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> Although Jackson... damn. He was laying out anyone within a two foot radius of him. He went insane.
> 
> It's funny how Stephen Jackson goes berserk on several fans, Jermaine has by far the hardest punch of the night, Wallace basically instigates the whole thing, yet Artest gets all the blame.
> 
> Not fair.


I agree. Oh ****, Spriggan and I agree on something?!?!?! What is the world coming to?

Artest kinda dug himself a hole in this one with the antics of the past couple years, that is why the blame comes back to him. Had it been someone like Ray Allen who did the 'hard foul' on Ben, it would all come back to Ben.

That wasn't a hard foul.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Zach</b>!
> I will say this, whoever got punched by Jermaine when he did the Superman act, got knocked the **** out!!!!!


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>ClayVTrainum</b>!
> 
> 
> Officer on Sportscenter said the reaction after being hit with something can make a pretty good case as self defense.
> 
> Innocent bystander? He may have not been the guy who threw the cup, but watch the video, he is in no way innocent.


I'm not sure how you define guilt/innocence, but from my experience a person who is not guilty, is in fact innocent.

Specifically, what is he guilty of? 






> He jumped in after Artest, Artest is surrounded by people wanting to hit him. Hell, the guy who pulled Artest back was the same giuy who was punching him in the back of the head seconds later. No one who was still in that area is innocent.


This is incorrect. Specifically, what is the person Jackson hit guilty of? Not running away? He appeared to possibly be trying to push Artest off of the guy he was attacking, but that's it. You can't start swinging at people just because they are near an incident.





> The fact that the fan is on the court is an immediate threat. Him and another guy rushed the court towards Artest. They didn't go that far just to stand and stare. Artest and O'Neal's punch just ended it before it started.


This is the most absurd thing you've yet said. Artest was no where in the area when O'Neal came out of no where and hit this guy, who was being restrained at the time. Artest had already left. O'Neal did that out of vengence, plain and simple.

As did Artest and Jackson.


----------



## Zach

Someone needs to get a clip of JO flying into that fan in slow motion, and use it as their avatar.

hu-larious.


----------



## Spriggan

Does that look like a *glass bottle* that idiot fan is tossing to anyone else?


----------



## Zach

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the most absurd thing you've yet said. Artest was no where in the area when O'Neal came out of no where and hit this guy, who was being restrained at the time. Artest had already left. O'Neal did that out of vengence, plain and simple.
> 
> As did Artest and Jackson.


Artest punched one guy and then proceeded to the free throw line. Then JO went over there and flew into that stupid-***.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> Although Jackson... damn. He was laying out anyone within a two foot radius of him. He went insane.
> 
> It's funny how Stephen Jackson goes berserk on several fans, Jermaine has by far the hardest punch of the night, Wallace basically instigates the whole thing, yet Artest gets all the blame.
> 
> Not fair.


Wallace started a fight between the two teams. He is blamed for that. However, Wallace pushing Artest did not *inevitably* result in a riot breaking out. That did not happen until Artest and Jackson decided to fight an entire section of fans. Because of a weightless plastic cup.


----------



## Zach

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does that look like a *glass bottle* that idiot fan is tossing to anyone else?


It most certainly does.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> Wallace started a fight between the two teams. He is blamed for that. However, Wallace pushing Artest did not *inevitably* result in a riot breaking out. That did not happen until Artest and Jackson decided to fight an entire section of fans. Because of a weightless plastic cup.


You're not allowed to throw things at the players. I don't care if its a plastic cup or a baseball.


----------



## Zach

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And? I don't think Artest has the ability to look into the future, or he may have decided to fight Wallace instead.



I think the melee woulda been bigger had he gotten nto it with Big Ben


----------



## BallStateCards

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>
> I'm not sure how you define guilt/innocence, but from my experience a person who is not guilty, is in fact innocent.
> 
> Specifically, what is he guilty of?


I just said that you classified him as an innocent bystander. He didn't throw the cup, but when Artest jumped into the stands, the fan was yelling and screaming at Artest. Given, the fan did not throw the cup, but he sees a guy yelling at him and assumes.




> This is incorrect. Specifically, what is the person Jackson hit guilty of? Not running away? He appeared to possibly be trying to push Artest off of the guy he was attacking, but that's it. You can't start swinging at people just because they are near an incident.


I don't know what you are talking about, but the people that gathered around the area were going After the Pacers players. Fred Jones getting hit, I saw a dude stream in towards the area and Jackson punched him, etc. That was a riot there, you just can't determine good and bad after that.




> This is the most absurd thing you've yet said. Artest was no where in the area when O'Neal came out of no where and hit this guy, who was being restrained at the time. Artest had already left. O'Neal did that out of vengence, plain and simple.


The thing with the fans was only a matter of seconds. Artest had just been pulled back right when O'Neal came in. It wasn't like Artest hit a guy, and the other guy got hit minutes later.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> You're not allowed to throw things at the players. I don't care if its a plastic cup or a baseball.


What's your point?


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> Wallace started a fight between the two teams. He is blamed for that. However, Wallace pushing Artest did not *inevitably* result in a riot breaking out. That did not happen until Artest and Jackson decided to fight an entire section of fans. Because of a weightless plastic cup.


Those types of cups aren't weightless. Just because they're plastic doesn't mean they can't hurt, particularly since it hit Artest in the face.

It's very easy to sit back and say "Artest should've kept his cool." Very easy. The fact of the matter is, whether you want to pretend to or not, you don't know what you would've done in that situation.


----------



## hobojoe

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> What's your point?


His point is that the fans were out of line, and responsible for this whole mess escalating into what it did.


----------



## Zach

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> Because of a weightless plastic cup.



Full of liquid, which has volume which has a weight. It looked like it hit Artest pretty hard to be weightless.

You have no argument. Drop it. You lose. Everybody needs to get off of Artest for once and on the SECURITY!!!!(And the Pistons staff, and Ben Wallace)


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>ClayVTrainum</b>!
> 
> 
> I just said that you classified him as an innocent bystander. He didn't throw the cup, but when Artest jumped into the stands, the fan was yelling and screaming at Artest. Given, the fan did not throw the cup, but he sees a guy yelling at him and assumes.


Talking smack does not make you guilty of an event that you did not do. He was not the person who threw the cup. He was an innocent bystander. 






> The thing with the fans was only a matter of seconds. Artest had just been pulled back right when O'Neal came in. It wasn't like Artest hit a guy, and the other guy got hit minutes later.


Yes, in fact, the person who O'Neal hit was being restrained, and was in no way attacking Artest, at the time O'Neal hit him. You can not "defend" someone unless that person is at risk. There was 0 risk, as the person was being restrained, and wasn't even the person who fought Artest to begin with.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Zach</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Full of liquid, which has volume which has a weight. It looked like it hit Artest pretty hard to be weightless.
> 
> You have no argument. Drop it. You lose. Everybody needs to get off of Artest for once and on the SECURITY!!!!(And the Pistons staff, and Ben Wallace)


It had hardly any liquid in it, 1/4 full tops. No, that's not enough to do anything than be uncomfortable due to being wet.

Artest was not hit "hard" by a weightless plastic cup. You're desperately grasping for straws.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> 
> 
> His point is that the fans were out of line, and responsible for this whole mess escalating into what it did.


The fan threw gas on a pile of wood. Artest threw the match on.


----------



## BallStateCards

The guy who O'Neal hit, tackled Artest, look at the film. When that guy got up, O'Neal hit him immediately.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> Yes, in fact, the person who O'Neal hit was being restrained, and was in no way attacking Artest, at the time O'Neal hit him. You can not "defend" someone unless that person is at risk. There was 0 risk, as the person was being restrained, and wasn't even the person who fought Artest to begin with.


I don't think Jermaine unloading on that fan was right, because he was being restrained, but the fan wasn't innocent.

He was on the court and he shouldn't have been. He had also been getting into it with the Pacers' Chuck Person. Fans on the court getting into it with personnel are a *threat*, period.


----------



## Zach

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> Those types of cups aren't weightless. Just because they're plastic doesn't mean they can't hurt, particularly since it hit Artest in the face.
> 
> It's very easy to sit back and say "Artest should've kept his cool." Very easy. The fact of the matter is, whether you want to pretend to or not, you don't know what you would've done in that situation.



True.

After a closer look Spriggan, it looked like a plastice Coke bottle the fan threw. BUT it was full. Probably worse than a glass bottle in that case.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> Those types of cups aren't weightless. Just because they're plastic doesn't mean they can't hurt, particularly since it hit Artest in the face.


If Artest didn't even flinch after being hit, I see no reason to think he was hurt in any way. It was a cup with hardly any beer in it. It was weightless.




> It's very easy to sit back and say "Artest should've kept his cool." Very easy. The fact of the matter is, whether you want to pretend to or not, you don't know what you would've done in that situation.


That's not relevant to whether or not an action is warranted.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't think Jermaine unloading on that fan was right, because he was being restrained, but the fan wasn't innocent.
> 
> He was on the court and he shouldn't have been. He had also been getting into it with the Pacers' Chuck Person. Fans on the court getting into it with personnel are a *threat*, period.


He wasn't getting into it with personnel. He was being restrained.

Could O'Neal have hit him after being handcuffed and sitting in the back of the police car? No. You can only hit someone *while* they are posing a threat.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> It had hardly any liquid in it, 1/4 full tops. No, that's not enough to do anything than be uncomfortable due to being wet.
> 
> Artest was not hit "hard" by a weightless plastic cup. You're desperately grasping for straws.


You keep saying the cup was weightless, yet it had liquid in it. A plastic cup with liquid in it is not weightless.

Watch the video again. I've been replaying it. The cup Artest was hit with was anything but weightless. You can tell by the way it lands. You have to also realize that gravity plays a part in this. The cup was thrown down at Artest. That adds to the velocity.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Zach</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> True.
> 
> After a closer look Spriggan, it looked like a plastice Coke bottle the fan threw. BUT it was full. Probably worse than a glass bottle in that case.


Wow, Artest got hit with a bottle that weighed more than a glass bottle, yet he didn't even flinch.

No, that's about as stupid of something you can say as there is.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> The fan threw gas on a pile of wood. Artest threw the match on.


So lets get this straight. 

1. Artest fouls Wallace, just a normal foul
2. Wallace over reacts and punches Artest
3. Artest keeps his cool. 
4. A fan provokes Artest further after he was punched, by throwing things at him, which is just as bad as Artest going into the crowd. 

Yet *Artest threw the match on?*

Thats ridiculous. The fans threw the match on, and got burned because of it.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> He wasn't getting into it with personnel. He was being restrained.


Right before that he was getting into it with Chuck Person. He was in the process of being restrained just as Jermaine sailed in with the punch.


----------



## Zach

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> Wow, Artest got hit with a bottle that weighed more than a glass bottle, yet he didn't even flinch.
> 
> No, that's about as stupid of something you can say as there is.



Okay, a plastic bottle full of soda weighs more than an empty glass bottle of the same size, moron. And it wasn't thrown at Artest, I didn't say that, Spriggan didn't say that. It was thrown at a Pacer, I think it was jackson.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> So lets get this straight.
> 
> 1. Artest fouls Wallace, just a normal foul
> 2. Wallace over reacts and punches Artest
> 3. Artest keeps his cool.
> 4. A fan provokes Artest further after he was punched, by throwing things at him, which is just as bad as Artest going into the crowd.
> 
> Yet *Artest threw the match on?*
> 
> Thats ridiculous. The fans threw the match on, and got burned because of it.


Yes. The only thing that matters is *at what point did the riot become inevitable*?

Let's take them step by step.

*1. Artest fouls Wallace, just a normal foul*

No, fouls, even hard fouls, happen all the time. A full scale riot was not inevitable at this point.

*2. Wallace over reacts and punches Artest*

This did not happen. At no point during the altercation did Wallace punch Artest. Wallace pushed Artest in the neck area.

And no, this did not inevitably lead to the riot situation. Fights happen in sports, but riots in arenas rarely happen, if ever.

*3. Artest keeps his cool. *

Clearly this didn't have anything to do with the riot breaking out.

*4. A fan provokes Artest further after he was punched, by throwing things at him, which is just as bad as Artest going into the crowd. *

The fan throwing a plastic cup did not set in a course of action that *inevitably* led to a riot breaking out.

Beer has been thrown at players numerous times in sports. I know of no times that a full scale riot broke out, because of that. It was not an inevitability as soon as the beer hit Artest.

-----------

The one you left out is where Artest charges into the stands, with Jackson behind him. They then proceed to get into fights with fans.

Mob mentality sets in and people start seeing themselves as an anoymous member of a crowd, and thus not in any danger to get into trouble for their actions.

That's the point serious security risks broke out, and when players and fans alike where in danger of getting hurt. Some, in fact did get hurt.

It was Artest's actions of jumping into the stands that lit the fire. As soon as he did that, a riot was inevitable.


----------



## sKiP~2~mY~BLUTH

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> So lets get this straight.
> 
> 1. *Artest fouls Wallace, just a normal foul*
> 2. Wallace over reacts and punches Artest
> 3. Artest keeps his cool.
> 4. A fan provokes Artest further after he was punched, by throwing things at him, which is just as bad as Artest going into the crowd.
> 
> Yet *Artest threw the match on?*
> 
> Thats ridiculous. The fans threw the match on, and got burned because of it.


that WAS NOT a normal foul man!
the game was finished...and the foul was hard, no way thats a normal foul!
and another thing, artest should'nt lay there...he should go somewhere far from there and relax...
im not say what ben did was right, hell no!

when JO goin to the locker room and food is flyin u can c jamaal tinsley come with somethin with his hands and he want to hit som1....glad 1 person there cought him on time...!!


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> Right before that he was getting into it with Chuck Person. He was in the process of being restrained just as Jermaine sailed in with the punch.


Exactly. You can only hit someone while they are fighting. You can't do so after.

Jermaine can't go to the jail where that person probably is sitting right now and hit him.


----------



## Zach

> Wow, Artest got hit with a bottle that weighed more than a glass bottle, yet he didn't even flinch.
> 
> No, that's about as stupid of something you can say as there is.





> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does that look like a *glass bottle* that idiot fan is tossing to anyone else?



This is the bottle I am talking about Pan Mengtu. If quit typing and talking, and look at the post and comprehend them and their content why don't ya.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Zach</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, a plastic bottle full of soda weighs more than an empty glass bottle of the same size, moron. And it wasn't thrown at Artest, I didn't say that, Spriggan didn't say that. It was thrown at a Pacer, I think it was jackson.


No. If you get hit in the face with a glass bottle, full or not, you get knocked out. Period.

Artest did not even flinch. It did not hurt him. It possessed very little weight, if any at all.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Zach</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the bottle I am talking about Pan Mengtu. If quit typing and talking, and look at the post and comprehend them and their content why don't ya.


That has nothing to do with why the fight broke out. That happened as the players were leaving.

We're talking about the bottle/cup that was thrown that initiated the fight.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly. You can only hit someone while they are fighting. You can't do so after.
> 
> Jermaine can't go to the jail where that person probably is sitting right now and hit him.


What are you arguing? I said Jermaine was wrong for doing what he did since the fan was being restrained at the time. But it's not like the fan was completely innocent, since he was somewhere he wasn't supposed to be and actually fought with a member of the Pacers organization. What if he had a knife or whatever? He was a security risk.


----------



## The_Franchise

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> 2. Pistons Ceo Tom Wilson is an idiot. Did anyone hear him indirectly saying that it was Artest's fault that he got hit with beer because he was laying on the scorers table, not on the court like he should've been? What a moron.


He's not an idiot he's a business man. He's going to try his best to take the heat away from his fans.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> Yes. The only thing that matters is *at what point did the riot become inevitable*?


Nope, Artest went into the crowd and everyone else should have stayed where they were and stayed calm while Artest pummeled a guy in the crowd. When Artest went into the crowd, why did everyone have to start rioting? 

^Thats the type of unrealistic logic you're using. 

Look, Wallace punched Artest, or "pushed him in the neck" which in short, is a punch, then the Detriot crowd starting throwing things at Artest. 

You're not allowed to punch players. 
You're not allowed to throw things at the players. 

Artest retaliated *after* he was a *victim* of those things happening to him. Those are the facts. Those things happened *before* Artest retaliated.


----------



## Zach

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> That has nothing to do with why the fight broke out. That happened as the players were leaving.
> 
> We're talking about the bottle/cup that was thrown that initiated the fight.



No I am talking about that picture. Now if you actually read the posts and comprehended them like I told you to try, you would see in a post that I was talking to SPRIGGAN, not PAN MENGTU about the picture that he posted. I said it was a plastic bottle, and at first thought it was glass.



> No. If you get hit in the face with a glass bottle, full or not, you get knocked out. Period.
> 
> Artest did not even flinch. It did not hurt him. It possessed very little weight, if any at all.


Once again, because he did not get hit with a coke bottle. Quit being ignorant, grasp what we are saying, and then try to come up with a valid argument. Quit hating on Artest.


----------



## walkon4

The thing I really can't understand is why those fat idiotic piston fans came on the court in front of the bench and actually approached Artest. Serves them right. For Ron could have known they could have had some type of weapon. You never know. Rightfully so they got knocked the f)(*& out. I am glad Jermaine too knocked that other piece of scum on his a^% too.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> Nope, Artest went into the crowd and everyone else should have stayed where they were and stayed calm while Artest pummeled a guy in the crowd. When Artest went into the crowd, why did everyone have to start rioting?
> 
> ^Thats the type of unrealistic logic you're using.


No, that's not a situation that could possibly happen. People swarm to fights.

Artest not jumping into the crowd is a completely realistic situation. Fans have thrown things at fans before. It's never resulted in a full scale riot in the past.

The riot became inevitable when Artest and Jackson starting fighting with an entire section of fans.

The only thing that could have changed that would have been better security.





> Look, Wallace punched Artest, or "pushed him in the neck" which in short, is a punch, then the Detriot crowd starting throwing things at Artest.
> 
> You're not allowed to punch players.
> You're not allowed to throw things at the players.
> 
> Artest retaliated *after* he was a *victim* of those things happening to him. Those are the facts. Those things happened *before* Artest retaliated.


Not relevant to where or not the fan's actions *inevitably* resulted in a riot.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> No, that's not a situation that could possibly happen. People swarm to fights.


People swarm to fights, people love fights. Ben Wallace started the fight with his punch and getting the crowd riled up while Artest was keeping his cool and letting it die down. 



> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> Artest not jumping into the crowd is a completely realistic situation. Fans have thrown things at fans before. It's never resulted in a full scale riot in the past.


Artest not jumping into the crowd is realistic, sure, but so is having fans that don't throw things at the players. The fact is, its not right for fans to throw things at the players, and its not right for the players to attack the fans. The difference here, is that one provoked the other. The fans provoked Artest to do what he did. 



> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> The riot became inevitable when Artest and Jackson starting fighting with an entire section of fans.


So one of two parties is pushing a riot (throwing punches, crowd cheering Pacers players being assaulted, crowd throwing things at players), and the only thing preventing that riot is the fact that the 2nd party is keeping its cool. When the 1st party *finally* provokes the 2nd party to riot, its the 2nd parties fault? Hell no. Pistons fans and Ben Wallace provoked it all.


----------



## Zach

There goes the Pistons' bid for SI Sportsmen of the Year.


----------



## Kicito

Now Artest will have some time to promote his record.

Don't know how long the suspensions will last though ? maybe a month ?


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> People swarm to fights, people love fights. Ben Wallace started the fight with his punch and getting the crowd riled up while Artest was keeping his cool and letting it die down.


Ben Wallace did not punch Artest. He pushed him in the neck area. I don't see the point in describing a push as a punch other than to strengthen your argument. Describe what happened accurately, please.

Ben Wallace started the fight between the teams. That's a seperate incident that should be treated seperately. He'll be supsended for his part.

Ben Wallace starting a fight with the Pacers did not inevitably lead to a riot breaking out.





> Artest not jumping into the crowd is realistic, sure, but so is having fans that don't throw things at the players. The fact is, its not right for fans to throw things at the players, and its not right for the players to attack the fans. The difference here, is that one provoked the other. The fans provoked Artest to do what he did.


The fan who threw something at Artest would have been caught by security, and either escorted out of the game or arrested depending on how severe the security felt the incident was. The fan throwing a beer bottle did not inevitably result in a riot.

The riot only become impossible to stop when Artest and Jackson starting fighting an entire section of fans.







> So one of two parties is pushing a riot (throwing punches, crowd cheering Pacers players being assaulted, crowd throwing things at players), and the only thing preventing that riot is the fact that the 2nd party is keeping its cool. When the 1st party *finally* provokes the 2nd party to riot, its the 2nd parties fault? Hell no. Pistons fans and Ben Wallace provoked it all.


Provocation isn't relevant. I'm talking about the point in which the riot was inevitable. Someone provoking someone else does not inevitably result in a riot. Fighting with an entire section of fans, when security is lax, does inevitably result in a riot.


----------



## Lynx

No winners in this brawl. Just a sorry day for NBA.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> Provocation isn't relevant. I'm talking about the point in which the riot was inevitable. Someone provoking someone else does not inevitably result in a riot. Fighting with an entire section of fans, when security is lax, does inevitably result in a riot.


Ultimately, this is where we disagree then. I don't think you can ignore the provocation. If everyone in the building is pushing riot, and Artest is the last straw that makes it happen, its not his fault, its everyone elses for consistently pushing for it to happen. Artest's intentions were to cool things down, but the Detriot crowd and Ben Wallace kept pushing and pushing. 

Artest was twice a victim before he decided to do anything. If a man's family is killed and wife is raped, there is no way I can think that its his fault for retaliating. Thats just me though, that is where we differ.


----------



## BallStateCards

Okay, all major sports leagues really need to take a look on how close fans can be to the players...

Memorable incidences from the last few years:

Carl Everett hit in the back of the head with a cell phone in Oakland

Francisco Rodriguez throwing a chair into the stands during a brawl at a game in Oakland

Milton Bradley getting hit with a bottle in Los Angeles

Tom Gamboa getting attacked by some fans in Chicago

An Ump getting attacked by some fans in Chicago

Pistons/Pacers brawl


----------



## JNice

Here's the JNice evaluation of what happened after a night to sleep on it.

-------------------

From my perspective, this should be treated as two different incidents.

Artest had a hard and un-needed foul (considering the score/time) on Wallace. But nothing punishable and I don't even think it was called a flagrant.

Ben Wallace overreacted, probably because of some incident earlier in the game or in a previous game. Artest is a thug and we all know it. But Ben was still in the wrong. I think the NBA will classify Wallaces "shove" as a punch. I predict Wallace will be out 3 or 4 games.

Now as far as I am concerned, what happens afterwards is a distinctly different situation.

The fan who threw the drink should be and probably will be arrested. In all honestly, the only punishable action that Artest made was going into the stands, which is a biggie. You just don't do that. He wasn't in any real danger. It was a plastic cup for goodness sakes and the guy was 30 feet away from him. He could have stayed on the court and security would have taken care of the guy. Getting hit with a plastic cup *does not* allow you to take the law into your own hands. 

I say Artest gets 10 games for entering the crowd and only for that reason.

As far as the little fat dude who Artest jacked, that is not a punishable offense. First, the guy was on the court and approaching Artest in a somewhat aggressive manner. You know, doing that fist pump thing that people who don't know how to fight do. That incident in itself was self-defense.

Other than that Artest didn't really do anything else.

Stephen Jackson IMO will get a slightly higher suspension. First, during the original altercation he was being more of an instigator than any other Pacer. Not punishable, but something to take into consideration. 

The he followed Artest right into the stands and as such, should get an equal 10 game suspension. And he actually landed a shot on a fan that did not appear to be directly in self-defense, like Artests shot to the fat dude. I'd say he gets 5 more games for that for a total of 15 games.

The Jermaine Oneal shot is a little harder to call. The guy he hit was on the court, but he also wasn't posing any sort of danger to anyone. He had already been hit and knocked down. Even in UFC you aren't allowed to hit a man while he is down. And Oneal wasn't even near the guy and came flying in to jack him up pretty bad. I say Oneal gets 8 games but also possibly faces criminal action.

----------------------

Should the fans be throwing stuff? No. Absolutely not. And that guy would have been escorted out and probably arrested.

Getting hit with a plastic cup does not justify Artest going into the stands and although things were heated, the melee would not have reached anywhere near that level had Artest and Jackson not entered the crowd.


----------



## John

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> Here's the JNice evaluation of what happened after a night to sleep on it.


1) I didnt bother to read the rest of your post.
2) You need more sleep before you think you can offer something I would like to read and comment on!


----------



## BallStateCards

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>
> The Jermaine Oneal shot is a little harder to call. The guy he hit was on the court, but he also wasn't posing any sort of danger to anyone. He had already been hit and knocked down. Even in UFC you aren't allowed to hit a man while he is down. And Oneal wasn't even near the guy and came flying in to jack him up pretty bad. I say Oneal gets 8 games but also possibly faces criminal action.


This is the part I disagree with you on. The guy who O'Neal hit was getting up right after he tackled Artest to the ground. We have slow motion and multiple replays, O'Neal had maybe five or six seconds. Also, O'Neal wasn't the only guy who went for the tackler, a guy in a tan-ish colored suit also jumped in.


----------



## spongyfungy

> Originally posted by <b>Lynx</b>!
> No winners in this brawl. Just a sorry day for NBA.


fans across the country love this stuff. most of the country were entertained.

Sex is bad on TV but violence is A-OK


----------



## spongyfungy

League will emerge stronger

more security = more money = ticket prices go higher. :no: 

this isn't a 9/11 even though it was on 11/19, for the NBA. just an unfortunate incident that turned out of control and spilled into the seats. let's not turn the arenas into security zones with plexiglass and a moat or brick walls. That's just idiotic


----------



## s00pers0nics

i wish iwas there i would threw everything on me at that piece of **** artest


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> 1) I didnt bother to read the rest of your post.
> 2) You need more sleep before you think you can offer something I would like to read and comment on!


Sweet! I never bother the read any of your posts after the first sentence! Scrub!


----------



## Lynx

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> Sex is bad on TV but violence is A-OK


Tell me about it.


----------



## Ron Mexico

> Originally posted by <b>s00pers0nics</b>!
> i wish iwas there i would threw everything on me at that piece of **** artest


so you could get your *** kicked?


----------



## s00pers0nics

it would have been worth it. then that jackass artest would be suspended even longer....


----------



## speedythief

Here's a question that hasn't been posed:

If a fan goes onto the floor, he is looking for trouble and is fair game, according to some in this thread.

What about if a player goes into the stands for the same reasons? Is it a fan's right to go after the player?

The seats are a fan's domain just like the hardwood is the player's.


----------



## JoeD

Man I'm dying out of anxiety waiting for what the NBA and lawyers are going to do.

I pray for tiny suspensions for everyone and no lawsuits. The only guy that I think has a right to sue is the guy Artest mistoke for the drink thrower but was totally innocent, but I hope he just gets over it like a man.


----------



## Steppenwolf

some thoughts on this thread:

-players don't get paid that much to play basketball, they get paid because they're public figures (with all responsibilities). A handball player e.g. doesn't get paid as much because less people want to see handball not because they're lesser athletes.

-if someone throws a beer at a player the player should remain calm, let the security handle it. If Artest wanted to file a lawsuit for assault later it would be right. What he did was self-justice not self-defence.

-fighting is not "cool" or "masculine" or "tough". If your self-respect depends on your fists, something is wrong with you. I've been in fights (team sport fights, too) - when I was 14-18 and didn't know better. Some people need to grow up...


----------



## jvanbusk

Ben Wallace: 5 games for his initial reaction
Rip Hamilton: 1 game for his role during the original altercation
Derrick Coleman: 1 game for leaving the bench
Chauncey Billups: 1 game for leaving the bench

Ron Artest: 20 games for going into the stands and then punching the guy on the court
Stephen Jackson: Out for the year, for his actions on the court and into the stands.
Jermaine O'Neal: 8 games for disgracing the league and probably criminal action. He should have spent the night in Detroit in prison.
Jamaal Tinsley: 3 games for trying to hit fans with a dustpan.


----------



## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Jamaal Tinsley: 3 games for trying to hit fans with a dustpan.


Maybe if he actually hit someone with a dustpan... I didn't know holding a dustpan is against league policy.


----------



## JoeD

I couldn't believe he was holding that dust pan, crazyness.


----------



## Gonzo

Who to blame?? 

Pistons Fans? :yes: 

Ben Wallace? :yes: 

Artest? :no:


----------



## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>Bird Fan33</b>!
> Who to blame??
> 
> Pistons Fans? :yes:
> 
> Ben Wallace? :yes:
> 
> Artest? :no:


definately Ben Wallace and Piston fans


----------



## Gonzo

> Originally posted by <b>JoeD</b>!
> I couldn't believe he was holding that dust pan, crazyness.


I never saw it


----------



## JoeD

What do you guys think the good Detroit fans should do about these jerks giving us a bad name and being *******s?


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>JoeD</b>!
> What do you guys think the good Detroit fans should do about these jerks giving us a bad name and being *******s?


Beat them up?


----------



## UKfan4Life

As much as I don't like Ron Artest, I don't think he is to blame for this at all. He fouled Ben Wallace. Sure it was a hard foul, but nowhere near a flagrant one. After getting pushed, he just calmy goes over to the scorers table and lays down, and then gets a beer thrown in his face for doing nothing. I would have kicked some *** too.


----------



## Gonzo

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> definately Ben Wallace and Piston fans


im sure many people agree


----------



## Tom

Artest is a punk who overreacted and ran after the smallest guy he could find. Its really simple. He has no excuse. he wasn't hurt. You can't say, what if it was a bottle because it wasn't.

You do not go in the stands. How about standing up and pointing to the guy? GEEZ.


----------



## Gonzo

> Originally posted by <b>UKfan4Life</b>!
> As much as I don't like Ron Artest, I don't think he is to blame for this at all. He fouled Ben Wallace. Sure it was a hard foul, but nowhere near a flagrant one. After getting pushed, he just calmy goes over to the scorers table and lays down, and then gets a beer thrown in his face for doing nothing. I would have kicked some *** too.


i really think anybody would


----------



## kflo

artest gave a hard, unnecessary foul. wallace responded - we've seen it 100 times. what happened afterwards does not fall on ben wallace.

i'm struggling with the fact that artest did nothing to wallace - he walked away, but couldn't refrain when getting hit with beer.

jackson also seemed a bit less willing to tussle with the pistons than he was willing to throw haymakers at the fan.

there's blame all around. first and foremost is the fans. 2nd is probably security. 

the league will likely make some changes, but they'll also likely send a message to artest that going into the stands, under any circumstances, is a no-no. again, these guys know that if they throw a punch at another player, it's a stiff penalty, so they can suffer indignity and walk away. artest clearly didn't have the same mentality with the fans.


----------



## Gonzo

> Originally posted by <b>Tom</b>!
> Artest is a punk who overreacted and ran after the smallest guy he could find. Its really simple. He has no excuse. he wasn't hurt. You can't say, what if it was a bottle because it wasn't.
> 
> You do not go in the stands. How about standing up and pointing to the guy? GEEZ.


:uhoh:


----------



## JoeD

> Originally posted by <b>Bird Fan33</b>!
> 
> 
> i really think anybody would


Yeah, but the difference is, I think most people would try and find the guy who threw the drink before pummeling some guy at a guess.

It was a really bad guess too considering the guy he went after had a drink.


----------



## Jamel Irief

I felt like crying when I saw that, seriously.

I love basketball, and I love the NBA. This was devastating to both and went against what the NBA is all about. Especially coming off what I felt were racist comments directed towards NBA players at the olympics, I could only imagine the backlash that will be given out at the black players going in the stands. Luckily ESPN has several black commentators, like John Saunders, Greg Anthony and Steven A Smith that were their to backup the players and correctly put the onus on the idiot fans.

I feel especially bad for the few innocent fans in the palace.


----------



## Gonzo

> Originally posted by <b>JoeD</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, but the difference is, I think most people would try and find the guy who threw the drink before pummeling some guy at a guess.
> 
> It was a really bad guess too considering the guy he went after had a drink.


Artest went after the right guy I think, did you see that guys face when he went after him?


----------



## Tom

> Originally posted by <b>Bird Fan33</b>!
> 
> 
> :uhoh:


he is a punk and always will be.


----------



## JoeD

Yeah it was total shock and fear. Not necessarily a sign of guilt in this situation


----------



## jvanbusk

> Originally posted by <b>Bird Fan33</b>!
> 
> 
> Artest went after the right guy I think, did you see that guys face when he went after him?


I usually have two drinks at once, don't you?


----------



## Gonzo

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> I usually have two drinks at once, don't you?


did he have 2 drinks i couldn't tell. all i know is that he was baiting him big time.


----------



## Tom

as a punishment the main perps should be singularly put in a 10 x 10 room with Fortson, Martin and Patterson for 1 minute.

They will learn not to do such things.


----------



## JoeD

Yeah, he had two drinks. How exactly do you know he was baiting Artest? Cool how Artest goes for the least likely culprit.

I don't find it unlikely he was talking trash (which we can't know), but you can't hold that against him.


----------



## Gonzo

> Originally posted by <b>JoeD</b>!
> Yeah, he had two drinks. How exactly do you know he was baiting Artest? Cool how Artest goes for the least likely culprit.
> 
> I don't find it unlikely he was talking trash (which we can't know), but you can't hold that against him.


Look at his face and his mouth
I'm watchin it right now, are you??


----------



## froggyvk

Honestly...

Couldn't this type of thing happen in any arena? A player fouls someone else, up 15 with 45 seconds to go. The guy overreacts and throws a punch. Benches clear, obviously...But Player A goes and lays down on the scorers table, isn't that just asking for trouble? Every fan base has some knuckleheads, and when one knucklehead does anything and doesn't get caught, the other knuckleheads are going to join in.

http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125736&forumid=29


----------



## jvanbusk

> Originally posted by <b>Bird Fan33</b>!
> 
> 
> Look at his face and his mouth
> I'm watchin it right now, are you??


Obviously you are not watching it close enough. The guy Artest attacked was holding a huge soda when he got attacked. Therefore, it is very highly unlikely that he was the guy who hit Artest with the cup of beer.


----------



## Gonzo

> Originally posted by <b>JoeD</b>!
> Yeah, he had two drinks. How exactly do you know he was baiting Artest? Cool how Artest goes for the least likely culprit.
> 
> I don't find it unlikely he was talking trash (which we can't know), but you can't hold that against him.


dude listen to the guys on ESPN they have it right.
Why can't you hold it against him, it was his fault that he was talking trash to Artest.


----------



## -33-

> Originally posted by <b>froggyvk</b>!
> Honestly...
> 
> Couldn't this type of thing happen in any arena? A player fouls someone else, up 15 with 45 seconds to go. The guy overreacts and throws a punch. Benches clear, obviously...But Player A goes and lays down on the scorers table, isn't that just asking for trouble? Every fan base has some knuckleheads, and when one knucklehead does anything and doesn't get caught, the other knuckleheads are going to join in.
> 
> http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125736&forumid=29


I agree...but unfortunately for Detroit fans, you will always be generalized by these fans last night...a few people ruined it for a lot...


----------



## JoeD

> Originally posted by <b>Bird Fan33</b>!
> 
> 
> Look at his face and his mouth
> I'm watchin it right now, are you??


No, watched it about 100 times already  Never paid attention to reading his lips...

But lets assume he was talking trash. That is what fans *do*, especially to people who foul your teams favorite player.


----------



## Tom

on this night it was more than a few. When they were leaving the court it was a rainbow coalition of fan hatred.

If we could only use this misguided unity in a better way


----------



## JoeD

> Originally posted by <b>Bird Fan33</b>!
> 
> 
> dude listen to the guys on ESPN they have it right.
> Why can't you hold it against him, it was his fault that he was talking trash to Artest.


A little heckling deserves a beating now?


----------



## Gonzo

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> Obviously you are not watching it close enough. The guy Artest attacked was holding a huge soda when he got attacked. Therefore, it is very highly unlikely that he was the guy who hit Artest with the cup of beer.


What would you have done if someone threw a cup at you and you go into the stands and someone is yelling and pointing a finger at you?


----------



## jvanbusk

> Originally posted by <b>Bird Fan33</b>!
> 
> 
> What would you have done if someone threw a cup at you and you go into the stands and someone is yelling and pointing a finger at you?


I wouldn't have attacked a random person that's for sure.

I tend to think I wouldn't have gone into the stands in the first place.


----------



## -James-

for all of you that say ron ron attacked the wrong guy, look at spongy's avatar... i think it clearly shows ron ron wasnt trying to hit him... in an image that was previously posted, it clearly showed that ron ron was shoved in the direction of the kid once he was in the stands. it looks like he lost his balance and was just trying to regain it. he doesnt really hit the guy, he just falls on him. if you look at the avatar you can see ron ron dove to the side of the guy and just stuck his arms out to keep from falling. keep in mind, if he wanted to hit the little guy, he would have hit him more squarely.


----------



## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>froggyvk</b>!
> Honestly...
> 
> Couldn't this type of thing happen in any arena? A player fouls someone else, up 15 with 45 seconds to go. The guy overreacts and throws a punch. Benches clear, obviously...But Player A goes and lays down on the scorers table, isn't that just asking for trouble? Every fan base has some knuckleheads, and when one knucklehead does anything and doesn't get caught, the other knuckleheads are going to join in.
> 
> http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125736&forumid=29


Sometimes you have to rest after a guy who can curl 200 lbs. punches you in the throat. :whoknows:


----------



## Gonzo

> Originally posted by <b>JoeD</b>!
> 
> 
> A little heckling deserves a beating now?


 A LITTLE?? Obviously you have not watched it 100 times
when someone throws beer at you and then you see someone pointing their finger at you, what would you have done??????? Acted like you didn't even feel it? Tell your body guard to go get him?
Tell the police to go kick his ***?


----------



## JoeD

> Originally posted by <b>-James-</b>!
> for all of you that say ron ron attacked the wrong guy, look at spongy's avatar... i think it clearly shows ron ron wasnt trying to hit him... in an image that was previously posted, it clearly showed that ron ron was shoved in the direction of the kid once he was in the stands. it looks like he lost his balance and was just trying to regain it. he doesnt really hit the guy, he just falls on him. if you look at the avatar you can see ron ron dove to the side of the guy and just stuck his arms out to keep from falling. keep in mind, if he wanted to hit the little guy, he would have hit him more squarely.


The guy he hit said Artest asked "did you do it? did you do it?" and he said "no" then artest "pummeled" him. That is what it looked like on the video too.


----------



## JoeD

> Originally posted by <b>Bird Fan33</b>!
> 
> A LITTLE?? Obviously you have not watched it 100 times
> when someone throws beer at you and then you see someone pointing their finger at you, what would you have done??????? Acted like you didn't even feel it? Tell your body guard to go get him?
> Tell the police to go kick his ***?


Maybe he was pointing and saying "oh ****! Artest is coming in the stands!!" 

Maybe he was saying stuff about the Ben Wallace foul.

Even given the worst case trash talking, it isn't an excuse.


----------



## Gonzo

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> I wouldn't have attacked a random person that's for sure.
> 
> I tend to think I wouldn't have gone into the stands in the first place.


I'm sorry Ron Artest is not treehugger


----------



## Kunlun

http://www.detnews.com/2004/pistons/0411/19/pistons-11159.htm



> That set Artest off. He raced into the stands and started swinging. The first person he hit was Mike Ryan of Clarkston.
> "I have no idea," Ryan said of why Artest picked him. "He was on top of me, pummeling me and he said, "Did you do it? Did you do it?' And I said, 'No, man, no.' He kind of shoved me and went off on other people."


----------



## Sham

OK, I have now witnessed the whole thing. A lot. Here's my take on it.


The biggest twat in this entire event was Stephen Jackson, who twice went looking for a fight (once on the court, once in the stand), when he was not involved.


Now, from start to finish, here's how I see it.......


The foul was nothing. It was not a flagrant, it was not particularly hard. You could argue he could have let him had the basket, but Artest doesn't buy into that, and let's be honest, why should he.

Ben Wallace reacted ridiculously to the foul. He was the catalyst for the whole shebang. I don't think he will get much of a suspension, but he should do.

Stephen Jackson's ears then perked up.....he wanted to shout at someone, and didn't care who. Derrick Coleman took the bait. Coleman wasn't going to fight, he just shouted, and I'm not entirely convinced Stephen Jackson would have gone through with the fight either. It looked like he was waiting for someone to hold him back, which eventually they did. Ben Wallace in the mean time kept coming for Artest, who was well subdued by his boys. One of which was Austin Croshere, who seems to always be in there splitting up fights, but never in them. Another reason to like him. 


When the on court stuff had calmed down and we had the usual court invasion with everyone trying to pull each other away, it looked like it was over. Then the guy in the crowd wearing the blue top threw a glass bottle at Artest, and it hit him. I have no doubt in my mind that bloody hurt, and Artest went to retaliate, which in the eyes of the law he's more than entitled to do. As a human being, I understand Artest's actions. He had kept his cool in the face of danger just prior to this with Wallace, and then when this fan went way way OTT he did what any human would do. As a profesisonal you could say he done wrong, but he's not supposed to know how to handle this, because it is not supposed to happen. Anybody would do the same, I would argue. He should be suspended and will be, because you aren't allowed to do that. But I very much empathise with why he did it.

(BTW, why the hell was he lying on the scorers table in the first place? I missed that bit.)

(And the reason Jim Gray sounded like he was crying is because the entire Pacer team had just crushed the crap out of him trying to get into the stands. He was no doubt winded.)



The problem was, Artest picked out the wrogn guy. He turned on that guy in the black, when it was the guy to his left in the blue who done it. Ironically, the guy who threw it then was one of the ones who tried to pluck Artest off of the innocent. I don't think Artest hit the guy in the black, but he pinned him down.


Stephen Jackson then disgraced himself further by rushing into the stands and fighting randoms. Whoever it was that held him back in the third row (I think it was Tinsley) saved at least 3 lives that night. But not before Jackson punched at least 3 random fans, for seemingly no reason. He needs a very long suspension.


No other players in the stands seemingly did anything wrong. Tinsley was plucking people out of there, as was Rasheed (you will here his name in the reports purely because he's Sheed, but he did nowt wrong. In fact he helped disband the situation). People are saying Fred Jones did something, but I didn't see it, so I'm not sure.


Now when Artest got out of the stands and back onto the court, a Piston fan came bounding up to him and running his mouth. Artest smacked him a good'un. Again, he shouldn't have done this, but neither should the fan, and once again, the fan started it. This will however add to his suspension.


When said fan was being held back and Artest led away, Jermaine O'Neal came flying in and creamed a punch to a different fan, who was caught up in the scuffle without seemingly doing much wrong other than being on the court. I'm not sure why O'Neal did this (he did look kind of similar to the one Artest hit, so he may have been mistaken), but he'll get his due suspension for this.


Artest and Jackson got led down the tunnel quickly (Jackson didn't need subduing, amazingly). It wasn't as easy for O'Neal and the rest, when the fans around the tunnel just pelted sheetloads of stuff at him and others, which just wasn't on. O'Neal took justified offense to this, which caused another ruckus. I think he will be punished for this but I dunno, I'm not sure. The fans however were the main culprit, throughout this and everything.



Now I'm not lumping all Pistons fans into one, because that would be silly. But there were a good 50 or so who were ridiculous out there last night. Stephen Jackson was a disgrace, Artest took some sheet he shoul;dn't have to take and blew his top. Ben Wallace triggered it all with that two handed shove to the face for no real reason, but didn't get involved outside of that. There may be suspensions to other players for things like leaving the bench, but I don't see that as fair somehow. How COULDN'T they? :whoknows:


But anyways, to conclude, ban Stephen Jackson for about 15 games. Artest will get about 10 although I think 5 is more in order. Wallace will get about 2 but I think 5 is also more in order. As for what Chuck Person apparently did.....dunno. Honestly couldn't make out which one was him.


----------



## froggyvk

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Sometimes you have to rest after a guy who can curl 200 lbs. punches you in the throat. :whoknows:


He barely punched him.


----------



## Gonzo

> Originally posted by <b>JoeD</b>!
> 
> 
> Maybe he was pointing and saying "oh ****! Artest is coming in the stands!!"
> 
> Maybe he was saying stuff about the Ben Wallace foul.
> 
> Even given the worst case trash talking, it isn't an excuse.


:sigh:


----------



## JoeD

Hopefully they can ID him... ridiculous


----------



## -James-

> Originally posted by <b>JoeD</b>!
> 
> 
> The guy he hit said Artest asked "did you do it? did you do it?" and he said "no" then artest "pummeled" him. That is what it looked like on the video too.


of course hes gonna say that, but it is clear that ron ron was shoved into the guy. there was an image that clearly showed this before (aroung page 37 i think). is it so hard to believe that ron ron was shoved, lost his balance, took out some guy while regaining it, then asking the guy he took out if he was the culprit?


----------



## J19

> Originally posted by <b>sKiP~2~mY~BLUTH</b>!
> 
> 
> that WAS NOT a normal foul man!
> the game was finished...and the foul was hard, no way thats a normal foul!
> and another thing, artest should'nt lay there...he should go somewhere far from there and relax...
> im not say what ben did was right, hell no!
> 
> when JO goin to the locker room and food is flyin u can c jamaal tinsley come with somethin with his hands and he want to hit som1....glad 1 person there cought him on time...!!


Oh shut up, Charles Oakley and Anthony Mason giggle with that foul, that was just a regular foul, soften up kid


----------



## Gonzo

> Originally posted by <b>JoeD</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully they can ID him... ridiculous


Nice pic, where did you get it?


----------



## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>Bird Fan33</b>!
> 
> 
> Nice pic, where did you get it?


Damn, even ESPN didn't have footage of the chair thrower.


----------



## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> I can't imagine what it most have been like to just be standing there with a soda in your hand and then get attacked by Ron Artest. And then after that get pummeled by Stephen Jackson.
> 
> I feel bad for that guy. It's pretty obvious from the tape Artest went after the wrong guy.


Thed guy Artest initially wrestled down was NOT the same guy Jackson was swinging on


----------



## JoeD

Artest didn't even try to go for the ball and swiped Wallace in the back of the head. Given the score and time, it is pretty easy to see the only reason he did that was to take a shot at Wallace from behind.


----------



## JoeD

Got it here: http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3178916


----------



## -James-

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> Thed guy Artest initially wrestled down was NOT the same guy Jackson was swinging on


i believe jackson swung at the guy who drenched artest after taking the little guy out.


----------



## goNBAjayhawks

That pic is not from the pacers brawl its from a baseball game where a guy in the bullpen busted some ladies nose with a chair.


----------



## PacersguyUSA

I really need to get a Stephen Jackson jersey. He did what I've always wanted: knock out a Piston fan.


----------



## -James-

> Originally posted by <b>JoeD</b>!
> Got it here: http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3178916


thats not from the game... thats franky francisco! in its heading above it says rangers brawl with a's fans. its when he broke some lady's nose


----------



## JoeD

lol my bad, I just assumed


----------



## Charlie Brown

> Originally posted by <b>-James-</b>!
> 
> 
> thats not from the game... thats franky francisco! in its heading above it says rangers brawl with a's fans. its when he broke some lady's nose


Unless Francisco was at the Pistons/Pacers game?

I mean, think about it. Francisco does have a track record of throwing chairs. :grinning:


----------



## Gonzo

> Originally posted by <b>-James-</b>!
> 
> 
> thats not from the game... thats franky francisco! in its heading above it says rangers brawl with a's fans. its when he broke some lady's nose


I thought the chair looked different...


----------



## -James-

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> Unless Francisco was at the Pistons/Pacers game?
> 
> I mean, think about it. Francisco does have a track record of throwing chairs. :grinning:


maybe your onto something there


----------



## PacersguyUSA

I like this picture:


----------



## Charlotte_______

What I saw, Ben Wallace overreacted yes, but if anyone watched a few plays before, Ben was fouled HARD by Artest and the refs didn't call anything like they wanted over. And Artest was VERY stupid for lying on the table, he was compltetely mocking him, if he would have stayed away from the crowd for example then i believe it never would have ended up that way. Also did anyone see Ben Wallace throw something at Artest? Don't know what he threw but that IMO is the reason everyone started. Stephen is a punk and should be suspended the entire year. All the Detroit fans should be Id'ed be prosecuted and not allowed to ever come back to the arena.

OT: How many OWN3D piactures do you think will be popping up on the internet now?


----------



## JoeD

Let's not give Jermaine so much credit for wailing a held back, pudgy, and probably drunk fan


----------



## hobojoe




----------



## Charlotte_______

> Originally posted by <b>Bird Fan33</b>!
> 
> 
> Nice pic, where did you get it?


OT: Bird your Avatar should say "Motown Beatdown" IMO. :laugh:


----------



## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>JoeD</b>!
> Let's not give Jermaine so much credit for wailing a held back, pudgy, and probably drunk fan


He still "ain't nothin' to **** with."


----------



## Gripni

The fight was everyone's fault.

During gameplay, there was no fault. There is no reason Artest should not have attempted to stop Wallace from scoring. The foul wasn't cheap, unneccessary, or too hard. That's called playing basketball.

Then, Ben Wallace shoved Ron Artest. That was unneccessary. This shouldn't have happened. Wallace was frustrated because he was down 15 points to their rivals at home. His brother had recently died. Ben Wallace is an intense player.

Ron Artest did the right thing by not fighting Ben Wallace. Regardless of whether it was because he was scared, wanted to preserve his reputation, or whatever, he should not have gotten into it.

Artest did the wrong thing by lying down on the scorer's table. He should have just stayed on the bench. The fans probably felt disrespected by his lying down. The crowd in Detroit felt like he was taunting them by relaxing in the midst of a fight while they were up 15 with the game out of reach.

The fan throwing an object at Artest provoked the entire Indiana Pacers. That was an attempt to make a mockery of Artest. Throwing things at people is assaulting them, no matter what it is.

Artest's reaction was what set it on fire. Artest is now furious. Everyone in the building is now acting on instinct. Artest goes after anyone he can find.

Stephen Jackson goes into the stands with Artest because as a teammate, they want to protect each other and have a bond. However, Artest did not need any help whatsoever, and Jackson ends up looking for a fight with any Pistons fans he can find because of the us-against-them mentality that comes not only with being a member of a team but with being a human being.

The scene is then a complete brawl. Every single person in the building is involved. At this point there is no way to reverse what is happenening other than getting everyone out of the building. There is no way you can defend what anyone did. Everyone fighting is at fault. The fans who displayed respect were not treated to the high-quality basketball they came to watch and deserve a refund.

The suspensions I would give:

Ron Artest: 15 games
Stephen Jackson: 20 games
Jermaine O'Neal: 10 games
Jamaal Tinsley: 1 game
Ben Wallace: 4 games

The Pistons should not be allowed to play games in the Palace for a month or until discussion of this event has cooled down.


----------



## JoeD

I'm anxiously waiting to hear what the NBA is going to do, I imagine they have to do something soon as the Pacers are going to play tonight.


----------



## LionsFan01

Okay I just saw the videos of the brawl for the first time and I have to say none of that would have happened if Ben Wallace wouldn't have gone after Ron Artest. But there was no reason for Artest to go after Ben Wallace on his shot like he did with less than a minute left and the game way out of reach. The fans who were involved with throwing things and what not should be ashamed because what they did was just plain stupid. But then again so was Artest going and laying down on the scorer's table. With that move he was almost asking for some fan to say or do something tho him. I understand that some of the punches thrown were in self defense but some I saw didn't seem like self defense as much as taking out their anger on a heckler. Stephen Jackson's first punch in the stands seemed to me like he was just looking for someone to hit. Ron Artest once again made the situation worse when he decided to start a fight with a fan on the floor. Then Jermaine Oneal came flying in and just whailed on a fan. That to me was just a cheap shot. 

Both teams, the Pistons and the Pacers, need to realize that they're the professionals and its up to them to keep their composure and walk away from situations like that. The fans need to realize that they are just that, fans. They belong in the stands and the players belong on the floor. Once players start leaving the floor (Artest laying on the scorer's table), that's when things start going bad. I think several Pacers' players should be suspended along with Ben Wallace for going after Artest and Rasheed for also climbing into the stands. The fans involved should face legal action and who knows, maybe some of the players who were throwing haymakers in the stands will also face legal actions. Just a horrible situation for everyone.


----------



## Max Payne

Ok, I'm seriously getting tired of people's aberrations of this whole thing...I have 6 videos of this thing on me right now and I have carefully, almost frame by frame analysed who went after who...here's my results :

Let's start with some nomenclature...

1) We'll call the guy that ACTUALLY threw the cup at Artest, white guy with a cap, white full sleeve shirt and a blue Wallace jersey HOOLIGAN.

2) We'll call the kid with the glasses who gets knocked by Artest GEEK.

3) Lastly we'll call the guy who splashes another beer on Artest after he's gone into the stands PERP.


So it comes down to this...Artest goes after GEEK, obviously the wrong guy and takes him down...in the meantime HOOLIGAN restraining Artest from the back....PERP seizes this opportunity to splash beer on Artest...Enter Stephen Jackson...Jackson immediately rushes to Artest's side and takes down PERP with a hard right hook. Then the camera changes to the court but then zooms in again on the action in a moment or 2. We can see that HOOLIGAN has now resorted to taking cheap shots from behind at Artest and Fred Jones is being taken down by the fat guy on the other side. So Stephen Jackson has at this point whipped around and started pumelling HOOLIGAN, who is partially blocked by by someone trying to restrain Jackson...you can tell that it's him because you can clearly see his full white sleeved shirt arm and part of the blue jersey (which is why I described his attire). So by the time that Jackson gets fully restrained, he has just hit two people, PERP and HOOLIGAN, both of whom were physically abusing Ron Artest. I really think the league will take that into account when they evaluate the situation...I'm thinking a fair result would be Artest, JO and Jackson getting big fines and 5 game suspensions...Benny Wallace should get a 2 or 3 game suspension for going overboard on a hard foul....Rasheed is the man wrongly accused here...I know his history of being a bad boy but all throughout it seems he's doing his level best to keep people off Artest and Jackson...David Harrison as well was trying to keep people calm. So these guys really deserve to be commended instead of punished like many of you have said. Jamal Tinsley might get a game or 2 for that fracas with the dustpan near the end but that's debatable because once again he might have just been trying to come to the defense of his teammate, JO. Fred Jones was also just getting into it to get his teammates out of the mess so he shouldn't have to face up to anything. The fans however, HOOLIGAN and PERP should be taken to court...there is no excuse for initiating or complicating a physical encounter with a pro athelete...I'm a soccer veteran and I've seen instances where people get crazy and they throw in stuff on the soccer pitch...in the heat of the moment when you're fighting so hard to play well and win, you end up doing a lot of crazy things and I can say that I've done more than my share of walking up to the crowd and yelling obscenities at them, something that I even knew at the time was inappropriate but because it was the heat of the moment and it's a physical game, much like the game last night. If the players get taken to court and I know they will this is one instance when I will sure as hell be happy for the loopholes of our legal system because the lawyers will hopefully be able to get the players out of court and onto the basketball court where they belong...you can have whatever opinion you want on the matter but I'm looking at the long run in terms of what's good for the game. These are some of the league's elite players and throwing them out for an unnecessary period will just bring the level of basketball down. I'm not a Pacers fan, nor am I a Pistons fan, but I don't want the level of basketball to come down any more especially with the reality of another lockout looming overhead. I care about this sport and I love it with a passion that I share for few other sports so I don't want any more complications...I feel many of you would agree with me. I know there will be suspensions and fines but they must be fair in contect of the situation. I hope the league remembers that.


----------



## Cap

> OT: How many OWN3D piactures do you think will be popping up on the internet now?


<----------------- Start the count at 1.


----------



## BG7

Lets just leave it at, everyone involved was wrong, except the players, coaches, and police trying to break it up.


----------



## daschysta31

I think that stern will let our players back before christmas, imagine the ratings on that game now followed by kobe-shaq match, he wont be able to resist


----------



## JoeD

Max Payne gives a correct account.


----------



## daschysta31

alos vernon maxwell only got a ten game suspension for going after a fan who was HECKLING. i think these guys will get less.


----------



## Ron Mexico

No one mentioned the guy that got punched by JO was on the court when he shouldn't be


----------



## PacersguyUSA

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> <----------------- Start the count at 1.


2


----------



## JoeD

I don't defend the idiots who came on the court, but that was a hilarious cheap shot by JO.


----------



## mofo202

> Originally posted by <b>sboydell</b>!
> No one mentioned the guy that got punched by JO was on the court when he shouldn't be


Accually, If you read anywhere from like page 8 to 14(50 posts per page) everyone said that.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

> Originally posted by <b>TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife</b>!
> 
> 
> yes, you've lost touch with reality unless throwing beers at athletes has become acceptable in america.................


Unfortunatly, it has been acceptable for several decades now. and THOUSANDS of professional athletes have been doused with someting. 



And no one jumped in the crowd, with the exception of some NHL teams in the seventies.


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

from NBA.com


> "The NBA is withholding comment until it can review the incident," said NBA spokesman Tim Frank.


----------



## mofo202

> Originally posted by <b>ToddMacCulloch11</b>!
> from NBA.com


Dude the NBA must be ****ting their pants still.


----------



## BallStateCards

Technically, every player on each bench should be suspended. Its clearly stated that no one is allowed to leave the bench area during a game.

My view, suspension-wise:

Ron Artest, 10-15 games

Even though I, and plenty others, believe Ron was in the right, he has to get suspended. It won't be too long because the Players Association won't let it be. 10 is the precedent, so I guess around there would work.

Stephen Jackson, 10-15 games

He followed Artest into the stands, and he'll probably end up with a game or two more than Artest.

Jermaine O'Neal, 0 games

I don't think you can give him any games. The only people he hit were fans that were on the court. If a player gets suspended for hitting a fan in the wrong place in a threatening situation, I think the league needs to re-examine its priorites.

Ben Wallace, 3-5 games

He punched/shoved Artest.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>ClayVTrainum</b>!
> Technically, every player on each bench should be suspended. Its clearly stated that no one is allowed to leave the bench area during a game.
> 
> My view, suspension-wise:
> 
> Ron Artest, 10-15 games
> 
> Even though I, and plenty others, believe Ron was in the right, he has to get suspended. It won't be too long because the Players Association won't let it be. 10 is the precedent, so I guess around there would work.
> 
> Stephen Jackson, 10-15 games
> 
> He followed Artest into the stands, and he'll probably end up with a game or two more than Artest.
> 
> Jermaine O'Neal, 0 games
> 
> I don't think you can give him any games. The only people he hit were fans that were on the court. If a player gets suspended for hitting a fan in the wrong place in a threatening situation, I think the league needs to re-examine its priorites.
> 
> Ben Wallace, 3-5 games
> 
> He punched/shoved Artest.


I agree except Jermaine. He'll get something. That guy was on the court, but he wasn't threatening Jermaine or really anybody at the time that Oneal decked him.


----------



## Brian34Cook

Ya know what.. I think Artest's foul was intentional. If you look at the play before that when Artest got drilled by Wallace he was laying down and slammed into the floor.. Artest responded by taking a cheap shot and there ya have it.. a Fight..


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

Has it occured to you guys that maybe those two fans that came to the court in front of artest maybe only wanted artests autograph?? :whoknows:


----------



## JNice

Just a little food for thought.

I talked to my best bud who finished up the Police Academy awhile back and is soon going to be hired ....

He said here in Florida, throwing a drink in someone's face classifies as battery and is just as serious, as far as the law is concerned, as punching someone in the face. He said in a normal club-like situation, nothing he saw from the Pacers players would be punishable by law because it could easily be argued as self-defense.

He did say, however, that the circumstances at a sporting event might be handled a little differently, so he wasn't sure what the results would be. He did say he thought there was little chance any of the Pacers players would face real charges.


----------



## BEEZ

I see a TON of inaccuracies going on in this thread. Either some have selective memory or have selective eye sight. I will start from the beginning

Those who said Artest hit Ben Wallace with a hard or flagrant foul is just flat out wrong.

1. The refs never called it a "Flagrant" so how can you the "fan" call it a flagrant foul?

2. To those who said Ron Artest was scared of Ben Wallace, he clearly backed away while being restrained. I didnt know 3 players holding you made you a "MARK", "PUNK" or whatever else some of you guys called him. Also for those who say Ben Wallace wasnt totally wrong. If the play was dead and over with, why the need to toss the towel at Artest? Also if Artest was scared of Ben Wallace why did he start to get up and move toward him when Ben threw the towel?

3. IF I am not mistaken all of you who are saying Stephen Jackson hit a guy that was not doing anything. While I say he was looking to fight the guy he hit first clearly threw a beverage on Ron Artest and then started to swing when Jackson hit him with one.


4. I would like to also have someone rationalize to me how either of those guys that Artest and Oneal hit were not wrong. I thought the court is for the players so how could either one of them get hit if they were somewhere they didnt belong?


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>DaUnbreakableKinG</b>!
> Has it occured to you guys that maybe those two fans that came to the court in front of artest maybe only wanted artests autograph?? :whoknows:


:rotf:


----------



## Sánchez AF

S-JAX is a punk! 

that fight was great....

Bad boys are back !!!!


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 4. I would like to also have someone rationalize to me how either of those guys that Artest and Oneal hit were not wrong. I thought the court is for the players so how could either one of them get hit if they were somewhere they didnt belong?


Just because someone is somewhere they don't belong doesn't give you the right to beat the crap out of them unless they are posing a real threat to you.

The first guy Artest punched on the court deserved it because he did come right at Artest and in a threatening manner.

The guy Oneal hit was not threatening Oneal or really anyone it didn't appear.


----------



## Cap

I'm also wondering if Jermaine may have injured his right knee again when he slid into that fan with his fist. God, can't believe I'm actually writing this. :sigh:


----------



## JoeD

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 2. To those who said Ron Artest was scared of Ben Wallace, he clearly backed away while being restrained. I didnt know 3 players holding you made you a "MARK", "PUNK" or whatever else some of you guys called him. Also for those who say Ben Wallace wasnt totally wrong. If the play was dead and over with, why the need to toss the towel at Artest? Also if Artest was scared of Ben Wallace why did he start to get up and move toward him when Ben threw the towel?


Artest didn't need to be held back... You'd think if you were going to clear up inaccuracies you'd verify things yourself first.

Also, Ben threw a headband, and that was the same time the drink was thrown, and we all know he went to the stands, not Ben.


----------



## JNice

I blame it all on Grant Theft Auto. Damn video games.


----------



## lubomir42

Unreal !!

Join the 
"bann Artest for the whole year and fine this mother ****er hard "
comitee

How the **** can an nba player punch a guy under 6' ???

There are really a lot of mother ****ers in this game


----------



## AReallyCoolGuy

He got up to go after Ben after the headband was thrown, I don't even think the headband hit him. 

A cup of beer is also a lot different, the fan was jsut being stupid, Artest was dumb to go up in the crowd but he didn't initially punch the guy he grabbed him, and hoopshype it says he was asking "Did you do it? "did you do it?" Then other fans came in.


----------



## Bron_Melo_ROY

...*[strike]DETROIT FANS HAVE TO BE THE DUMBEST AZZ FANS FOR WHAT THEY DID![/strike]* 
All I can say is that Ron Artest tried to do the right thing by not fighting back at Ben Wallace (which could have been a pretty good matchup) but we all know that Artest has a short fuse and the fan that threw the drink at him is to blame for this entire fiasco. To make matters worse, he threw a punch at Artest and then got his lights punched out... When it all comes crashing down, the heaviest penalized players will be Ben Wallace, Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson, and Jermaine O'Neal. Everyone else involved will be unjustly penalized for trying to defend themselves and break the fight up...Ben Wallace was just frustrated because they were losing by 15 and he was fouled, not flagrantly however, and see what it caused.


----------



## Sánchez AF

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> I blame it all on Grant Theft Auto. Damn video games.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## Sánchez AF

> Originally posted by <b>Bron_Melo_ROY</b>!
> ...*DETROIT FANS HAVE TO BE THE DUMBEST AZZ FANS FOR WHAT THEY DID!*
> All I can say is that Ron Artest tried to do the right thing by not fighting back at Ben Wallace (which could have been a pretty good matchup) but we all know that Artest has a short fuse and the fan that threw the drink at him is to blame for this entire fiasco. To make matters worse, he threw a punch at Artest and then got his lights punched out... When it all comes crashing down, the heaviest penalized players will be Ben Wallace, Ron Artest, Stephen Jackson, and Jermaine O'Neal. Everyone else involved will be unjustly penalized for trying to defend themselves and break the fight up...Ben Wallace was just frustrated because they were losing by 15 and he was fouled, not flagrantly however, and see what it caused.


Artest was a big factor in the fight making fun of the fans when he was like posing on the score table.


----------



## mvblair

This was just pathetic. All the players who fought and all the fans who throw things and punched players are pathetic. 

Under no circumstances whatsoever should this type of situation occur. A player should *never* go into the stands with a hostile crowd. Never.

Ron Artest, lying down on the broadcaster's table for some reason, was hit with a beer. Fine. Let the security guards deal with the fan and press criminal charges later. Don't go fighting the fan. (Artest started hitting a fan who was already holding a cup and wearing glasses, so I don't think that fan was the one who threw the beer cup). And Stephen Jackson went into the stands and starting pummeling fans too. Wrong. 100% wrong.

Of course a fan shouldn't throw anything at a player. But that happens sometimes in all sports. When you mix beer, aggresive sports, and a big loss, that happens. But somebody throwing a cup of water (or ice or beer) does not give the victim the right to beat on innocent or guilty people. 

*Every weekend the bartender at your local bar has somebody throw something at him. The bartender never jumps over the bar and starts punching the offender onto the ground. Bartenders are smart enough not to do that. Police are smart enough not to do that. *

This was just pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. 

I just hated seeing the old woman with the gray hair lying on the ground, and the child trying to calm down his younger brother. My God, what a complete and total shame. I feel so sorry for those two children, that woman, the man in the stands hugging his daughter. 

Suspend Ben Wallace for 3 games for punching Artest. 

Suspend Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson for at least 30 games. Maybe kick them out for the rest of the season like they did to Latrell Spreewell and Kermit Washington. Yes, I think Artest should be kicked out of the league. 

Suspend Jermaine O'Neal for 30 games for coming out of nowhere and throwing the punch to the stunned fan on the court. 

Matt


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> Ultimately, this is where we disagree then. I don't think you can ignore the provocation. If everyone in the building is pushing riot, and Artest is the last straw that makes it happen, its not his fault, its everyone elses for consistently pushing for it to happen. Artest's intentions were to cool things down, but the Detriot crowd and Ben Wallace kept pushing and pushing.
> 
> Artest was twice a victim before he decided to do anything. If a man's family is killed and wife is raped, there is no way I can think that its his fault for retaliating. Thats just me though, that is where we differ.


I must have missed the part where Pistons fans murdered Ron's family and raped is wife.

I don't know, I guess where we defer is I consider throwing a cup a slightly lesser offense than rape and murder.

You can't ignore the provocation, and maybe Ron was justified to go after the guy who threw the cup. But he went after the wrong guy. He got fans involved who didn't throw anything. 

Attacking an innocent bystander is TAD different than seeking retribution for rape and murder. Don't try to over glorify things here.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/sports/3935695/detail.html

This camera angle keeps the focus on Artest for almost the whole initial incident. Do you really thing the way he was acting on the scorers table in a hostile arena was intended to cool things down? No, he was trying to stir things up as much as the next guy.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by Johnny Mac!
> 
> 
> Ultimately, this is where we disagree then. I don't think you can ignore the provocation. If everyone in the building is pushing riot, and Artest is the last straw that makes it happen, its not his fault, its everyone elses for consistently pushing for it to happen. Artest's intentions were to cool things down, but the Detriot crowd and Ben Wallace kept pushing and pushing.
> 
> Artest was twice a victim before he decided to do anything. If a man's family is killed and wife is raped, there is no way I can think that its his fault for retaliating. Thats just me though, that is where we differ.


That's where you and the law differs too. You can't just kill someone because they provoke you. You have to be in physical danger.


----------



## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>JoeD</b>!
> 
> 
> Artest didn't need to be held back... You'd think if you were going to clear up inaccuracies you'd verify things yourself first.
> 
> Also, Ben threw a headband, and that was the same time the drink was thrown, and we all know he went to the stands, not Ben.


hmm maybe you are right even though I am watching the video I see a towel handed to Ben Wallace and he chucks it over at Ron Artest. I guess you are right though:sigh:


----------



## MLKG

A fan reaction from ESPN:



> As a former security guard at the Spectrum, I have to say Ron Artest was completely out of line. That fan that threw the beverage would've been dealt with accordingly by security and police, a slap on the wrist and a small fine - possibly a few hours in the tank. There was absolutely no reason for Artest to go up into the stands, he could've simply pointed the bad fan out. But I don't even know that Artest ATTACKED the right fan. As soon as an opposing player goes into the stands it becomes an attack on ALL the fans - and they're going to defend themselves. I've dealt with plenty of beverage tossers and nothing like this has ever even come close to happening because the players always blew it off like professionals should. If this is the darkest day in NBA history, it is Ron Artest who will be remembered, not popcorn throwing fans.
> 
> Matt Kowalski
> Philadelphia, PA


Ron Artest did NOT do what every player would have done. In fact I would be 95% of players woudl NOT have rushed the stands.

Beer tossign is fairly common at sporting events and in every case I've ever seen the player simply points the fan out to security.


----------



## Captain Obvious

After seeing all the videos and reading most of the posts these are my final thoughts on the topic:

1.) There seems to be a fundamental disagreement over who's at fault based on the initial foul. The way I see it is even if you think Artest foul was uncalled for, Wallace's reaction in no way was justified, so I put the initial blame on Ben Wallace.

2.) I agree with what HKF was saying before about if you've been on a team you know you would have acted exactly like the Pacers did. Does it make it right? Not necessarily. That's why I agree what Dumars was saying. *Nobody* can be completely absolved in this situation.

3.) This is what I expect the fallout to be (not what I would do but what I expect the NBA to do):

i.) Artest- 20-30 game suspension
ii.) Jackson- 10 game suspension
iii.) O'Neal- 6 game suspension
iv.) Wallace- 5 game suspension
v.) 1 game suspensions for pretty much everybody who wasn't in the game since the benches cleared.
vi.) Detroit will get some kind of punishment but this is somewhat unprecedented so I don't know what to predict. Maybe the empty stadium thing like they do in soccer?

Make no mistake about it, this is a terrible event for the NBA. I'm ashamed to be a fan right now .


----------



## BallStateCards

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>
> I agree except Jermaine. He'll get something. That guy was on the court, but he wasn't threatening Jermaine or really anybody at the time that Oneal decked him.


The fan that O'Neal hit tackled Artest seconds earlier. Jermaine hit the guy when he was getting up.


----------



## MLKG

On another note I think the one group that is NOT at fault for this is Palace security.

When Ron Artest went into the stands he put the security staff into a terrible position. By going into the stands, he forced security to follow him, and that left nobody to keep people off the floor.

Security can protect you on the court, but once you go into the stands you are putting yourself in danger. 

There is also no possible way a security guard can PREVENT a fan from throwing something. They can remove fans, but can't prevent that kind of stuff from happening. It's just not logistically possible.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> A fan reaction from ESPN:
> 
> 
> 
> Ron Artest did NOT do what every player would have done. In fact I would be 95% of players woudl NOT have rushed the stands.
> 
> Beer tossign is fairly common at sporting events and in every case I've ever seen the player simply points the fan out to security.


Exactly. If the case for Artest storming the stands wasn't worse, he didn't even fight the right guy. The guy he fought was just talking smack, but didn't throw anything.

What Artest did was assault, far more so than what the fan who threw his drink.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> That's where you and the law differs too. You can't just kill someone because they provoke you. You have to be in physical danger.


Artest didn't kill the guy, in fact he barely did anything to him. He pushed him in the face and pushed him to the ground, he didn't even punch the guy.



> Originally posted by <b>SpeakerBoxxX</b>!
> 
> 
> Artest was a big factor in the fight making fun of the fans when he was like posing on the score table.


Making fun of the fans? What the hell are you talking about?


----------



## X-Factor

> Originally posted by <b>ClayVTrainum</b>!
> 
> 
> The fan that O'Neal hit tackled Artest seconds earlier. Jermaine hit the guy when he was getting up.


Actually, he went onto the court to attack Artest, but Artest punched the living crap out of him. When he was getting up and starting cussing out and threatining Artest again JO ran over and socked 'em


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> 
> Artest didn't kill the guy, in fact he barely did anything to him. He pushed him in the face and pushed him to the ground, he didn't even punch the guy.


I know, I was making an analogy. You can't just attack someone because they provoke you. That counts in murder and in punching someone. You have to be defending yourself.


----------



## socco

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> I know, I was making an analogy. You can't just attack someone because they provoke you. That counts in murder and in punching someone. You have to be defending yourself.


Artest got attacked, not just provoked.


----------



## JoeD

> Originally posted by <b>Minnesota Magician</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually, he went onto the court to attack Artest, but Artest punched the living crap out of him. When he was getting up and starting cussing out and threatining Artest again JO ran over and socked 'em


I think the guy was actually fat guy #2 who actually tackled Artest  Or something...I mix the two pudgy guys up. 

It didn't look like he was even saying anything when getting up, he looked dazed. You saying he cussed him out and threatened him is an obvious lie unless you were on the court at that time. No need to make stuff up.


----------



## Premier

*Stills*

Here are some stills I uploaded; I couldn't get the JO pic because it was very low quality, but here are some very good Artest shots:


----------



## JoeD

> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> 
> Artest got attacked, not just provoked.


Call it what you want but it is still not defense when you hit someone who just happens to be around your "attacker".


----------



## MLKG

I just saw in the paper that guy the O'Neal hit was knocked out cold and taken out of the palace on a stretcher.


----------



## daschysta31

he deserved it


----------



## Vintage

After watching the video, re-watching it, and re-watching it again, I am with Pan Mengtu on this.....


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>daschysta31</b>!
> he deserved it


No he didn't. Rewatch the video. That guy didn't do anything. He pushed Artest off of his friend, and then went down. Then Person came over to him and started hitting him, hard. Then as he was standing up he was yelling at person, who was being pulled away. Then O'Neal came out of no where and took him out. He wasn't doing anything at the time. He didn't really do much of anything to begin with. His friend kind of did, but he didn't.

O'Neal could be in legal trouble if that guy was seriously hurt.


----------



## Tooeasy

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> I just saw in the paper that guy the O'Neal hit was knocked out cold and taken out of the palace on a stretcher.


ohhhh, that poor thing. guy shouldnt of even stepped on the court, let alone walked right into artests path just asked to get a whoopin. if your gonna knuckle up, be willing to accept the ****ing consequences.


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Tooeasy</b>!
> 
> ohhhh, that poor thing. guy shouldnt of even stepped on the court, let alone walked right into artests path just asked to get a whoopin. if your gonna knuckle up, be willing to accept the ****ing consequences.


The guy that Artest hit wasn't the same guy that O'Neal hit. The guy O'Neal hit was trying to break thrings up between Artest and his friend.

Here's a question: if it is OK for Artest to hit a fan just for coming onto the court (which I believe it is), is it also OK for fans to defend themselves against players who come into the stands?


----------



## Pioneer10

I didn't realize it but before Artest's hard foul on Wallace (which was not dirty or flagrant), Wallace had a hard foul on Artest the play before which wasn't called.

Look what Artest did was wrong but getting a beer thrown is a lot more provocation then Wallace going after you. That was in game situation with refs around you, etc.

Wallace also threw a towel at Artest to keep the tension going when things were calming down. This was BEFORE the beer was thrown

I'm not being easy Artest: he needs to be suspended for a long time but Wallace is going to have to sit for awhile as well


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> The guy that Artest hit wasn't the same guy that O'Neal hit. The guy O'Neal hit was trying to break thrings up between Artest and his friend.
> 
> Here's a question: if it is OK for Artest to hit a fan just for coming onto the court (which I believe it is), is it also OK for fans to defend themselves against players who come into the stands?


No, of course not. The Artest apologists here have given him a green flag to do what ever he wants.

Saying he was justified in going into the stands to "defend" himself against a guy who threw a beer at him is 1 thing, and I think that's quite a stretch.

But saying he's justified into attacking a guy for _laughing_ at him is just completely stupid.


----------



## BG7

LMAO at Artest making fun of the Detroit Fans. He was trying to do an interview while laying down on the scorers table. Dennis Rodman used to lay on the scorers table all the time. 

The 2 fat guys approached Artest. The first one that Artest socked made a little hop step move towards Artest, but then hesitated when he realized what he was getting into but it was too late.

Moral to the story, don't go towards a disgruntled Bull. The Bull will gore you if you do. These fans could have all just avoided the confrontations with the players but they didn't. They wanted to be the guy that beat up Ron Artest, but even with 2 on 1 and 5-1 they still couldn't. The 2 fat guys wanted to go tag team on Artest, so Artest tagged in his partner.

This is sad but I doubt these large suspensions take place like everyone thinks.

Artest- 10 games
O'neal- 10 games
Jackson- 10 games
--------------------------
Everyone else 1 game for leaving the bench.

Wallace- 3 games
-----------------------
Everyone else 1 game for leaving the bench. 

The NBA has to stick to the rules, and both teams are going to have to forfeit a game in my opinion. 

I think its a good message to the fans, if the Pistons do play in an empty stadium, it will make the "good fans" or the majority of Pistons fans pissed off at these guys, and if someone starts something like that, people will most likely not join in. 

I am not going to go calling Ben Wallace a thug, because ultimately he was the spark that eventually started this forest fire. I am not going to blame Pistons fans either for this. I am going to blame a thousand drunkin idiots that were at the game. They served as the gasoline, and catalyst that elevated to this. Artest, O'neal, and Jackson just responded. How can you guys justify fans throwing crap at the players, but not justify what the players did. The players just responded. But by NBA Rule, fighting is not allowed, provoked, or unprovoked.


----------



## BG7

Wow! over 1000 posts in this thread.


----------



## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> Talking smack does not make you guilty of an event that you did not do. He was not the person who threw the cup. He was an innocent bystander.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, in fact, the person who O'Neal hit was being restrained, and was in no way attacking Artest, at the time O'Neal hit him. You can not "defend" someone unless that person is at risk. There was 0 risk, as the person was being restrained, and wasn't even the person who fought Artest to begin with.


I feel sorry the guys you hang around, if you hang around guys at all. From your comments...It's easy to see that when a similar sitation presents itself, you'll be under a table calling for security...while one of your buddies is getting his azz beat....

btw, I'm not just commenting on these particular comments, rather your comments in the entire thread.....


----------



## walkon4

We can't forget that this is modern America, and theyre will DEF be lawsuits. I mean, people sue because their coffee at Mcdonalds is to hot. Damn I wouldnt be surprised if they contacted a lawyer from the stretcher on the cell phone on the way to the hospital.:laugh:*A punch from a multi-millionare black athlete in the NBA? that will probably be automatic.*


----------



## sweet_constipation

It's hard to disagree with Pan Mengtu and Mike luvs KG on the issue of restraint.
Both the fans and players *SHOULD* have tried their damnest to turn the other cheek.
But as it was brought up, Artest + fans + alcohol + mob mentality will turn out for the worse the majority of the time....up to this point in his career. Then you add the ghetto factor of Jackson, and JO who displays his ability to throw a decent punch.......well....we saw what happened.

And yes Mike luvs KG, if players like JO and Jackson can back up their friend, I see no problem in the fans ganging up together as well. All's fair. 

Personally, some of the stuff that happened could have been solved with common sense.......even in that frenzy.
Ben Wallace should not have acted as he did.
Artest should not have gone into the stands seeing as it was not the right thing to do, and he didn't know who actually threw the drink.
I do feel bad for the innocent geeky-looking guy with the drink in his hand. However, don't jump around like you're celebrating. That doesn't mean he deserved to get hit, but he could have avoided it.

Next were the tele-tubbies that decided to walk onto the court and in the DIRECT path of Artest. Not only that, but the first tele-tubbie decides it's a good idea to hop-skip so he's able to get in Artest's way a bit quicker. He's lucky because tele-tubbie #2 decides to tackle Artest. A couple seconds later and you have JO sliding in with a right that directly lands. Lucky for tele-tubbie #2 that he was slipping and couldn't put all his force into it.
These tele-tubbies couldn't avoided all this if they wanted to...EASY.


However, the *TRUE COWARD AWARD* goes to the guy that threw the drink, then proceeds to NUDGE Artest in the direction of the innocent geek, and finally begins to throw cheap-shots to Artest's head from the back.


All this said, I feel bad the for lady that was on the ground and the innocent geek. The rest of the people got what was coming.
IMO ofcourse.


----------



## BG7

SUSPENSIONS 

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_y...slug=ap-pacers-pistonsbrawl&prov=ap&type=lgns



> NEW YORK (AP) -- The NBA suspended Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson of Indiana and Ben Wallace of Detroit on Saturday for taking part in one of the ugliest brawls in U.S. sports history.
> 
> The suspensions were indefinite, and the league was still investigating Friday night's melee involving fans, which commissioner David Stern called ``shocking, repulsive and inexcusable -- a humiliation for everyone associated with the NBA.''
> 
> The league issued a statement saying it was reviewing rules and security procedures ``so that fans can continue to attend our games unthreatened by events such as the ones that occurred last night.''
> 
> ADVERTISEMENT
> Artest, O'Neal and Jackson -- all of whom threw punches at fans during the fight at the end of Friday night's nationally televised Pacers-Pistons game -- were to begin serving their suspensions Saturday night, when the Pacers played a home game against Orlando.
> 
> Wallace's suspension will begin with the Pistons' next home game, Sunday night against the Charlotte Bobcats. Pistons spokesman Tom Wilson said Saturday the team plans to use ``playoff-level security'' starting with that game, doubling the number of armed police and increasing arena security by about 25 percent, though he couldn't say how many police and security that would be.


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife</b>!
> 
> 
> I feel sorry the guys you hang around, if you hang around guys at all. From your comments...It's easy to see that when a similar sitation presents itself, you'll be under a table calling for security...while one of your buddies is getting his azz beat....
> 
> btw, I'm not just commenting on these particular comments, rather your comments in the entire thread.....


Exactly. It's not about being a tough guy, but some of these guys, are obviously the guys who could careless when someone just completely disrespects them. 

Unbelievable. Why not bend over and pull your pants down too?


----------



## Idunkonyou

So much for suspensions not being handed out swiftly. Looks like a sure win for my Magic tonight. Not only are O'Neal, Jackson and Artest suspended, but Pollard, Miller and Bender are on the I/R.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife</b>!
> 
> 
> I feel sorry the guys you hang around, if you hang around guys at all. From your comments...It's easy to see that when a similar sitation presents itself, you'll be under a table calling for security...while one of your buddies is getting his azz beat....
> 
> btw, I'm not just commenting on these particular comments, rather your comments in the entire thread.....


Ok, who exactly on the Pacers was getting beat? If that is the case, why didn't Stephen Jackson attack the plastic cup? The plastic cup is the only thing that beat Artest up. Gimme a break with this machismo crap.


----------



## twinz2gether

Could the suspensions be huge enough to the point where the pacers don't make the playoffs?


----------



## jcs83md

Kinda interesting that O'Neal, Artest, and Jackson all were drafted in their teens.


----------



## Brian34Cook

*Slightly OT*

Another Fight breaks out at College Football Game

Sad day in Sports :upset:


----------



## Idunkonyou

> Originally posted by <b>twinz2gether</b>!
> Could the suspensions be huge enough to the point where the pacers don't make the playoffs?


They are doing an investigation. They will probably have a number once they are done. Who knows? All 3 and Wallace could be gone for the year.


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

> Originally posted by <b>twinz2gether</b>!
> Could the suspensions be huge enough to the point where the pacers don't make the playoffs?


With all the injuries they have, and if the three of them are gonna be out for a while...they are in trouble. They're gonna have like 6 people tonight.


----------



## bballlife

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> It doesn't ****ing matter if Ron Artest didn't know he was beating up the wrong guy. HE BEAT UP THE WRONG ****ING GUY!!! How in the world can you even begin to justify that?!?!?!
> 
> How would you like it if you got half court courtside tickets to game, some ******* in the row ahead of you throws a drink at a player, and that player comes up and beats the **** out of YOU.
> 
> I'm not even talking about Ben Wallace HKF. What, you think I think Ben Wallace should be absolved of everything just because I have him in my avatar? Ben shouldn't have shoved Artest, but if you honestly think that is in anyway comparable to the assault of fans IN THE STANDS you are the one who has lost all touch with reality.
> 
> I'm not defending Pistons players here, I'm defending INNOCENT fans against the dangerous and irresponsible actions of these professional athletes.
> 
> I don't give a **** what happens to Ben Wallace, my concern is not with the Pistons players. Ben Wallace vs Ron Artest is small potatoes, it's an afterthought, in 20 years it won't even be remembered. What WILL always be remembered is Artest inciting a riot by ATTACKING fans. This was not self defense. It was a clear cut assault.
> 
> Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson BEAT UP paying customers who did nothing wrong.
> 
> Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson BEAT UP paying customers who did nothing wrong
> 
> Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson BEAT UP paying customers who did nothing wrong
> 
> Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson BEAT UP paying customers who did nothing wrong
> 
> How many times do I have to say this. It doesn't matter how hurt Artest's pride was. He ****ing clocked the wrong dude. An INNOCENT fan.
> 
> Notice I haven't brought up JO because while what he did was also wrong, at least he kept his senseless violence constrained to fans rushing the court.
> 
> Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson should never be allowed to play professional sports again. As an organization how can you trust these guys around your fans when at any given time they could be provoked to beat up a fan. Those guys that got hit are going to get a LOT of money out of this, and rightfully so.
> 
> I've dealt with all the crap from fans as a player too, and you know what? It really is not that hard to rise above it. Personally, I would never risk my career over an empty plastic cup. Ego be damned. The real mark of man is the ability to swallow your pride.




I don't think the dude was completely innocent because if you look at the tape the guy he did attack in the black shirt was running his mouth, he probably instigated it somewhat/egged him on. Think about it, some guy throws a beer at you, you go in that direction and some guy is ripping on you. You’re probably going to go after that guy.

There was definitely a reason Artest attacked him.


----------



## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Ok, who exactly on the Pacers was getting beat? If that is the case, why didn't Stephen Jackson attack the plastic cup? The plastic cup is the only thing that beat Artest up. Gimme a break with this machismo crap.


look, when you're with a group of friends amongst people you don't know and a fight breaks out, regardless of who is at fault, you see a friend in a scuffle, I don't know about you, but ME, I immediately rush to his aid without question....It's called loyalty among men...


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think the dude was completely innocent because if you look at the tape the guy he did attack in the black shirt was running his mouth, he probably instigated it somewhat/egged him on. Think about it, some guy throws a beer at you, you go in that direction and some guy is ripping on you. You’re probably going to go after that guy.
> 
> There was definitely a reason Artest attacked him.


Are you out of your mind? There are hundreds of fans talking smack at every game in the NBA? Artest was justified in beating a guy up for laughing and talking smack?


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly. It's not about being a tough guy, but some of these guys, are obviously the guys who could careless when someone just completely disrespects them.


Yeah, it's called being a man.

Real men don't go around beating on every person who wrongs them.

Real men fight to protect their homes and their families. 

Someone who feels he has to fight everytime someone disrespects him nothing more than a thug.


----------



## BubblesinanIV

*.*

Real men also can objectively comment on something without their all pervasive bias. :grinning:


----------



## MLKG

*Re: .*



> Originally posted by <b>BubblesinanIV</b>!
> Real men also can objectively comment on something without their all pervasive bias. :grinning:


I'm getting sick of people dismissing everything I say because of "pervasive bias". If you have problem with something I say bring up a specific statement and tell where I'm wrong and why I'm being biased.

Don't just go Stephen Jackson on me and take shots for no reason. :grinning:


----------



## PacersguyUSA

> Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson BEAT UP paying customers who did nothing wrong.
> 
> Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson BEAT UP paying customers who did nothing wrong
> 
> Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson BEAT UP paying customers who did nothing wrong
> 
> Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson BEAT UP paying customers who did nothing wrong


Except that he didn't. Artest was pushed into the guy from a punk*** Detroit fan. And Artest grabbed him to try to keep from falling.


----------



## bballlife

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you out of your mind? There are hundreds of fans talking smack at every game in the NBA? Artest was justified in beating a guy up for laughing and talking smack?



I think Artest assumed it was that guy since he is the one Artest saw running his mouth, egging him on. 

If that guy kept his mouth shut, Artest never touches him imo.


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Except that he didn't. Artest was pushed into the guy from a punk*** Detroit fan. And Artest grabbed him to try to keep from falling.


Right.


----------



## ChiBron

Detroit fans got what they deserved. U've no right to touch a player on the court, much less throw a glass of beer at a player for absolutely no reason except to be a punk a** bit*h and hurt that person. Getting hit in the face while already p*ssed off is the worst thing that can happen. That fan and all others who were acting like idiots got what they deserved. To me its as simple as that. If u're gonna be a bit*h like that.....then u better face the consequences.


----------



## rainman

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, it's called being a man.
> 
> Real men don't go around beating on every person who wrongs them.
> 
> Real men fight to protect their homes and their families.
> 
> Someone who feels he has to fight everytime someone disrespects him nothing more than a thug.


best comment i've read all day.


----------



## bballlife

How stupid is Ben Wallace. Just heard an interview with him saying he doesnt think is responsible for starting the whole thing. 

Unbelievable considering even after Artest was chilling on the scorers table, he threw a towel at him, which probably caused that dumb fan in the Wallace shirt and white hat, to throw his beverage at Artest's face. 

Thus kicking off the whole Shebang. 

Wallace better get at least 10 games.


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> Wallace better get at least 10 games.


I agree. Wallace 10 games and Artest the whole season.


----------



## bballlife

Legler or Anthony made a point last night that this could have been the result of years and years of built up aggression between the players and fans. 

Players play so many games a year, hear so many derogatory insults, get stuff thrown at them, etc. 

Something to think about.


----------



## Season of Shaq

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> Think about it, some guy throws a beer at you, you go in that direction and some guy is ripping on you. You’re probably going to go after that guy.


Then why did he avoid the first 20 people who were doing the exact same thing?

Watch the tape - Artest isn't looking anywhere near the direction that the bottle came from when it hits him. Its amazing that he came that close to the grabbing the right guy in the first place, but 'a guy ripping on you' after you get hit by a beer isn't a legitimate reason to go after the guy.

It's all a moot point anyway. That's going to be one of the most expensive misidentifications in history. I bet GEEK is hoping that Artest's cd sells well cause he'll be seeing a ton of its profits.


----------



## -James-

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> Right.


its true... take a close look... there have been two images posted that clearly show this. one by babyblue and the one in spongy's avatar.


----------



## Minstrel

In my opinion, the Detroit fans involved in throwing things and assaulting the players should be arrested and the innocent fans attacked by Artest, Jackson and O'Neal should be able to press criminal and/or civil charges against the player(s) who attacked them.

There's no excuse for the fans who threw things, and there's also no excuse for players who physically attacked fans who had done nothing out of line at a basketball game.


----------



## Idunkonyou

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> In my opinion, the Detroit fans involved in throwing things and assaulting the players should be arrested and the innocent fans attacked by Artest, Jackson and O'Neal should be able to press criminal and/or civil charges against the player(s) who attacked them.
> 
> There's no excuse for the fans who threw things, and there's also no excuse for players who physically attacked fans who had done nothing out of line at a basketball game.


I agree.


----------



## rainman

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> Legler or Anthony made a point last night that this could have been the result of years and years of built up aggression between the players and fans.
> 
> Players play so many games a year, hear so many derogatory insults, get stuff thrown at them, etc.
> 
> Something to think about.


no excuse, thats why they get the big bucks


----------



## Season of Shaq

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> And Artest grabbed him to try to keep from falling.


That is about as likely as the moron that threw the beer claiming that he was just trying to throw the cup in a garbage can down behind the scorer's table.


----------



## Brady00

How is Indiana going to be able to play tonight. 
The only players available will be Freddie Jones, David Harrison, Jamal Tinsley, Austin Croshere, Eddie Gill and James Jones. I guess they'll have to suit up Pollard and Bender because they aren't on the injured reserve, even though neither player can play because of injuries.


----------



## rocketeer

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> There's no excuse for the fans who threw things, and there's also no excuse for players who physically attacked fans who had done nothing out of line at a basketball game.


so throwing beer and coming onto the court in an attempt to fight players is not out of line at a basketball game?

artest went into the stands and grabbed the fan. the pacers didn't throw a punch until punches were already thrown by fans and then a drink was thrown close range into artest's face. they attacked fans after they were attacked by the fans.

they should still get suspensions for going into the stands and participating in the fight but there is an excuse for what they did. they were attacked by the fans and responded to it.


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> so throwing beer and coming onto the court in an attempt to fight players is not out of line at a basketball game?
> 
> artest went into the stands and grabbed the fan.


The fan Artest grabbed was NOT the same fan that threw the drink.

And if I see one of these guys charging at me or my friend and I have a drink in my hand your God damn right I throw it. Fans have the same right to protect themselves against wild players in the stands as players have to protect themselves against wild fans on the court.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> so throwing beer and coming onto the court in an attempt to fight players is not out of line at a basketball game?


Hmm, maybe you should consider reading my post before you respond to it. I said: "In my opinion, the Detroit fans involved in throwing things and assaulting the players should be arrested"

I said the ones who *weren't* doing that and yet were physically attacked should be able to press criminal and civil charges.

I'm afraid this simplistic "Detroit fans attacked me so I can attack any Detroit fan I want, they're all the same" is absurd and idiotic. If a fan went to the the game, did none of the throwing or leaving the stands and yet got punched or pummelled, he was the victim of a crime.


----------



## jvanbusk

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> so throwing beer and coming onto the court in an attempt to fight players is not out of line at a basketball game?
> 
> artest went into the stands and grabbed the fan. the pacers didn't throw a punch until punches were already thrown by fans and then a drink was thrown close range into artest's face. they attacked fans after they were attacked by the fans.
> 
> they should still get suspensions for going into the stands and participating in the fight but there is an excuse for what they did. they were attacked by the fans and responded to it.


The first punch that went flying was thrown by Stephen Jackson.

And if you review the tape again, you can see Artest **** back to punch the guy he was holding. If he was not restrained he would have delivered.

*Edit* The word edited out starts with a C and ends with a K and has OC in the middle.


----------



## AranhaHunter

> Originally posted by <b>Zach</b>!
> I will say this, whoever got punched by Jermaine when he did the Superman act, got knocked the **** out!!!!!


You obviously have never seen or been in a real fight, that punch wasn't nearly as hard as it looked. JO had no legs or hips with him, he was falling down, that was all arm. Believe me, that punch wasn't that hard. His face just got red and a little sore, probably; however if JO really had a good stance when he punched, the guy's jaw might've been broken.


----------



## Gonzo

> Originally posted by <b>AranhaHunter</b>!
> 
> 
> You obviously have never seen or been in a real fight, that punch wasn't nearly as hard as it looked. JO had no legs or hips with him, he was falling down, that was all arm. Believe me, that punch wasn't that hard. His face just got red and a little sore, probably; however if JO really had a good stance when he punched, the guy's jaw might've been broken.


I totally agree, Jermaine slipped on something and fell into the guy.


----------



## krob

Best Video Yet


----------



## el_Diablo

pan mengtu, mike luvs KG and several others have already said all that's necessary here.

under no circumstances can a player run to the stands to attack a fan. none.

I can't believe someone tries to say artest did what he did in self-defense? how the **** is it self-defense to run after and beat a guy who at the moment poses no threat to you? especially in an nba game, where the security would take care of the situation.

makes me sad to read this macho-bull****, about beating up everyone who disrespects you. total garbage. the next thing you have is the guy who lost the resulting fight comes after the winner with a gun. because he ain't gonna be disrespected like that.

of course, fans who throw stuff on the court are the biggest idiots in this, and should be banned for life from NBA games.

1. ben wallace started the fight on the court with his retaliation on artest and should get a regular penalty for this. and maybe some more for trying to get at ron-ron after they were separated.

2. artest did well to stay away from wallace (a smart thing considering his health and possible bans), but when he went lying on the scorer's table, he clearly was trying to get someone annoyed. if you guys can't see that, you are blind. he could have gone anywhere else, but he had to try to fan the flames still. I'm not blaming him on this, it's a smart thing to do actually, try to get ben and the pistons pissed. and I'm not trying to blame artest on what the fan did.

3. that idiotic fan threw the drink on artest. this was the first thing that happened that should never happen in a basketball game (of course ben's reaction wasn't approvable, but those things happen when you are losing big against your biggest rival).

4. artest flipped. as I stated earlier, there is no excuse for a player to attack a fan in the stands. security would have taken care of the fan. a soccer player got a nine-month suspension for a karate-kick on a fan in the premiership a few years ago. he only suffered verbal abuse, so maybe not that much for artest, since the provocation in this case was more severe. I realise I'm bit biased to think about artest's punishment, but the 10 games that some have suggested here is totally laughable.

5. jackson, what the ****? if he truly was only attacking the guys that were on artest, it's not that bad as it looks, but still. but if he was just beating random people he needs to be out of the league. at least a season.

6. o'neal's punch, he ought go to prison for that. so the guy was on the court, who was he threatening on his knees like that? when will knicks' and lakers' opponents start to take out spike and jack nicholson? they are on the court all the time too...

the first fat guy that walked towards artest needs to banned for life from NBA games. 

7. all detroit fans who were throwing stuff on the pacers when they were leaving to their locker room should also be banned from future NBA games. and if they can identify the guy who threw the chair, lock him up.


----------



## DaUnbreakableKinG

> Originally posted by <b>el_Diablo</b>!
> pan mengtu, mike luvs KG and several others have already said all that's necessary here.
> 
> under no circumstances can a player run to the stands to attack a fan. none.
> 
> I can't believe someone tries to say artest did what he did in self-defense? how the **** is it self-defense to run after and beat a guy who at the moment poses no threat to you? especially in an nba game, where the security would take care of the situation.
> 
> makes me sad to read this macho-bull****, about beating up everyone who disrespects you. total garbage. the next thing you have is the guy who lost the resulting fight comes after the winner with a gun. because he ain't gonna be disrespected like that.
> 
> of course, fans who throw stuff on the court are the biggest idiots in this, and should be banned for life from NBA games.
> 
> 1. ben wallace started the fight on the court with his retaliation on artest and should get a regular penalty for this. and maybe some more for trying to get at ron-ron after they were separated.
> 
> 2. artest did well to stay away from wallace (a smart thing considering his health and possible bans), but when he went lying on the scorer's table, he clearly was trying to get someone annoyed. if you guys can't see that, you are blind. he could have gone anywhere else, but he had to try to fan the flames still. I'm not blaming him on this, it's a smart thing to do actually, try to get ben and the pistons pissed. and I'm not trying to blame artest on what the fan did.
> 
> 3. that idiotic fan threw the drink on artest. this was the first thing that happened that should never happen in a basketball game (of course ben's reaction wasn't approvable, but those things happen when you are losing big against your biggest rival).
> 
> 4. artest flipped. as I stated earlier, there is no excuse for a player to attack a fan in the stands. security would have taken care of the fan. a soccer player got a nine-month suspension for a karate-kick on a fan in the premiership a few years ago. he only suffered verbal abuse, so maybe not that much for artest, since the provocation in this case was more severe. I realise I'm bit biased to think about artest's punishment, but the 10 games that some have suggested here is totally laughable.
> 
> 5. jackson, what the ****? if he truly was only attacking the guys that were on artest, it's not that bad as it looks, but still. but if he was just beating random people he needs to be out of the league. at least a season.
> 
> 6. o'neal's punch, he ought go to prison for that. so the guy was on the court, who was he threatening on his knees like that? when will knicks' and lakers' opponents start to take out spike and jack nicholson? they are on the court all the time too...
> 
> the first fat guy that walked towards artest needs to banned for life from NBA games.
> 
> 7. all detroit fans who were throwing stuff on the pacers when they were leaving to their locker room should also be banned from future NBA games. and if they can identify the guy who threw the chair, lock him up.


Man, I agree from the first word that you said till the last one. Couldn't have said it better.


----------



## TakUrBalzBakFrmUrWife

> Originally posted by <b>rainman</b>!
> 
> 
> no excuse, thats why they get the big bucks


they get big bucks to win ball games.....bottom line...they aren't courted for thier civility, look where the majority of the NBA players come from....the ghetto.....they are paid big bucks to play ball, not take shcit from fans....


----------



## hobojoe

> Originally posted by <b>krob</b>!
> Best Video Yet


Thanks, great find. New camera angles and new parts of the fight that I hadn't seen before.


----------



## rocketeer

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> The first punch that went flying was thrown by Stephen Jackson.
> 
> And if you review the tape again, you can see Artest **** back to punch the guy he was holding. If he was not restrained he would have delivered.
> 
> *Edit* The word edited out starts with a C and ends with a K and has OC in the middle.


watch the video again. when artest grabs the fan, you can see the fan who jackson hits standing behind the guy with his full cup of beer. once enough people are there to hold artest back, the guy throws his entire cup of beer into artest's face from a few feet away. then jackson takes him out.

yes that was the first real punch thrown. and it came only after artest had a full beer thrown in his face from a few feet away. that guy deserved what he got. and artest didn't **** back to hit anyone until other people started grabbing him. that's when he started trying to swing.

the pacers didn't go into the stands randomly beating people. everything they did was a reaction to something the fans did. that doesn't make it right but the pacers didn't start the thing and no one should miss more than 10-15 games over this.


----------



## rocketeer

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Hmm, maybe you should consider reading my post before you respond to it. I said: "In my opinion, the Detroit fans involved in throwing things and assaulting the players should be arrested"
> 
> I said the ones who *weren't* doing that and yet were physically attacked should be able to press criminal and civil charges.


no i read your post. i just don't know what fans you were talking about who did absolutely nothing but were attack and should be able to press charges.


----------



## eternal_s9o7m

lol @ Stephen Jackson. watch the video before the melee, when the teams are trying to break it up. Jackson starts lifting up his shirt and looking hella "gayngsta" and Carlisle has to pull him back. funny stuff,


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> no i read your post. i just don't know what fans you were talking about who did absolutely nothing but were attack and should be able to press charges.


It's been reported from several sources that the fan Artest (and Stephen Jackson) attacked was not the person who threw the beer.

Stephen Jackson also punched several people in the area.

So, all of those people.

Beyond them, I don't know any specific example. I'm just saying, anyone who *was* attacked without doing any of the throwing or coming onto the floor has a perfectly valid case to sue the players and charge them with a criminal case.


----------



## rocketeer

> Originally posted by <b>el_Diablo</b>!
> 1. ben wallace started the fight on the court with his retaliation on artest and should get a regular penalty for this. and maybe some more for trying to get at ron-ron after they were separated.


i agree with that.



> 2. artest did well to stay away from wallace (a smart thing considering his health and possible bans), but when he went lying on the scorer's table, he clearly was trying to get someone annoyed. if you guys can't see that, you are blind. he could have gone anywhere else, but he had to try to fan the flames still. I'm not blaming him on this, it's a smart thing to do actually, try to get ben and the pistons pissed. and I'm not trying to blame artest on what the fan did.


artest lying on the scorer's table did nothing. what's the problem there? he backed away from the fight and went to the scorer's table.



> 3. that idiotic fan threw the drink on artest. this was the first thing that happened that should never happen in a basketball game (of course ben's reaction wasn't approvable, but those things happen when you are losing big against your biggest rival).


right. that should never happen. artest was doing nothing wrong and got hit in the face with a cup of beer.



> 4. artest flipped. as I stated earlier, there is no excuse for a player to attack a fan in the stands. security would have taken care of the fan. a soccer player got a nine-month suspension for a karate-kick on a fan in the premiership a few years ago. he only suffered verbal abuse, so maybe not that much for artest, since the provocation in this case was more severe. I realise I'm bit biased to think about artest's punishment, but the 10 games that some have suggested here is totally laughable.


yeah artest did flip. he went into the stands which was wrong. but he didn't hit anyone until he was already being grabbed, hit, and getting more beer thrown on him from close range. he went into the stands and grabbed the guy and pulled him to the ground. 10 games isn't laughable. it is right. he got back to the court and another guys steps up to him to fight. so artest puts him down. if a fan comes onto the court to fight, he deserves what he gets.



> 5. jackson, what the ****? if he truly was only attacking the guys that were on artest, it's not that bad as it looks, but still. but if he was just beating random people he needs to be out of the league. at least a season.


jackson took out a fan that threw a beer in artest's face from 2 feet away. it looked like he was just out there to help artest and hitting people that were going after artest. he should get about 10 games too.



> 6. o'neal's punch, he ought go to prison for that. so the guy was on the court, who was he threatening on his knees like that? when will knicks' and lakers' opponents start to take out spike and jack nicholson? they are on the court all the time too...


the guy was getting off the ground yelling and looked like he might go back after the pacers guy that was being held back. this was after the fan tried to tackle artest. oneal hit the guy before it was obvious that he was trying to do anything else violent though so it's not really clear. but the guy came onto the court trying to fight artest. since when have jack and spike come onto the court looking for a fight?



> 7. all detroit fans who were throwing stuff on the pacers when they were leaving to their locker room should also be banned from future NBA games. and if they can identify the guy who threw the chair, lock him up.


agreed.


----------



## rocketeer

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> It's been reported from several sources that the fan Artest (and Stephen Jackson) attacked was not the person who threw the beer.


the fan jackson hit clearly threw his beer in artest's face from a couple of feet away while artest was in the crowd and had grabbed the other guy. you can see a full cup in the guy's hand and then you see the beer splash into artest's face and then there is no more full cup in the guy's hand.


----------



## Vintage

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> the fan jackson hit clearly threw his beer in artest's face from a couple of feet away while artest was in the crowd and had grabbed the other guy. you can see a full cup in the guy's hand and then you see the beer splash into artest's face and then there is no more full cup in the guy's hand.


So........

Is it ok for Artest to hit the wrong guy?


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> the fan jackson hit clearly threw his beer in artest's face from a couple of feet away while artest was in the crowd and had grabbed the other guy. you can see a full cup in the guy's hand and then you see the beer splash into artest's face and then there is no more full cup in the guy's hand.


That was self-defense, trying to deter an on-rushing Ron Artest.

Just as players have the right to self-defense from fans on the court, fans have a right to self-defense from players in the stands. You seem to endorse anything players do to fans who violate their area, but have a pretty strict standard for what fans can do to malicious-intent players who violate _their_ area. That's not consistent.

Jackson, in any case, came in punching. He _also_ punched the guy who dropped that beer on Artest.


----------



## Vintage

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> That was self-defense, trying to deter an on-rushing Ron Artest.
> 
> Just as players have the right to self-defense from fans on the court, fans have a right to self-defense from players in the stands. You seem to endorse anything players do to fans who violate their area, but have a pretty strict standard for what fans can do to malicious-intent players who violate _their_ area. That's not consistent.
> 
> Jackson, in any case, came in punching. He _also_ punched the guy who dropped that beer on Artest.


You are totally missing the point.

Artest and Jackson's lives were in danger.

There is no telling how much damage can be done with a plastic cup of beer.

And JO? That guy was refilling his cup with beer. JO's life was clearly at stake.

C'mon Minstrel. I'd expect you to see this.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> 
> 
> You are totally missing the point.
> 
> Artest and Jackson's lives were in danger.
> 
> There is no telling how much damage can be done with a plastic cup of beer.
> 
> And JO? That guy was refilling his cup with beer. JO's life was clearly at stake.
> 
> C'mon Minstrel. I'd expect you to see this.


Sorry, I lost track of the fact that athletes need to do certain things to A. ensure their safety and B. ensure their self-respect. After all, they're just human.

On the flipside, fans are not humans, so anything they do wrong is clearly entirely their fault and there's no excuse for it.

If one works from that premise, everything makes sense.


----------



## Vintage

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Sorry, I lost track of the fact that athletes need to do certain things to A. ensure their safety and B. ensure their self-respect. After all, they're just human.
> 
> On the flipside, fans are not humans, so anything they do wrong is clearly entirely their fault and there's no excuse for it.
> 
> If one works from that premise, everything makes sense.


Exactly. I knew you'd come to your senses.

I mean it was a plastic cup of beer. Lives were clearly at stake.


----------



## bballlife

> Originally posted by <b>Season of Shaq</b>!
> 
> 
> Then why did he avoid the first 20 people who were doing the exact same thing?
> 
> Watch the tape - Artest isn't looking anywhere near the direction that the bottle came from when it hits him. Its amazing that he came that close to the grabbing the right guy in the first place, but 'a guy ripping on you' after you get hit by a beer isn't a legitimate reason to go after the guy.
> 
> It's all a moot point anyway. That's going to be one of the most expensive misidentifications in history. I bet GEEK is hoping that Artest's cd sells well cause he'll be seeing a ton of its profits.


What? You misunderstood my point.

Artest ASSUMED for whatever reasons that the man in the black shirt was the culprit. He was directly to the right of the man who actually did throw it. He didnt avoid 20 people, he took a quick leap and was right in the area where it happened. 

Its not a legit reason to go after the guy but it helped Artest make his decision.


----------



## bballlife

> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly. I knew you'd come to your senses.
> 
> I mean it was a plastic cup of beer. Lives were clearly at stake.


No it was probably something else, maybe soda, considering there was ice in the cup.


----------



## DHarris34Phan

yesterday was a sad day for the nba


----------



## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly. I knew you'd come to your senses.
> 
> I mean it was a plastic cup of beer. Lives were clearly at stake.


Beer is pretty acidic. It's like getting spit on by one of those dinosaurs from Jurassic Park.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>DHarris34Phan</b>!
> yesterday was a sad day for the nba


What happened?


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> What happened?


You didn't hear? Where the hell have you been?


...Kobe went 0-10 in the first half.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> You didn't hear? Where the hell have you been?
> 
> 
> ...Kobe went 0-10 in the first half.


:laugh: 

Unbelievable. This is going to change the league forever.


----------



## rocketeer

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> That was self-defense, trying to deter an on-rushing Ron Artest.
> 
> Just as players have the right to self-defense from fans on the court, fans have a right to self-defense from players in the stands. You seem to endorse anything players do to fans who violate their area, but have a pretty strict standard for what fans can do to malicious-intent players who violate _their_ area. That's not consistent.
> 
> Jackson, in any case, came in punching. He _also_ punched the guy who dropped that beer on Artest.


no that was not self defense by the fan. that fan was not involved at all. artest grabbed a different fan(the guy he thought threw the beer on him in the first place). the guy i'm talking about was behind the guy and in no danger. there was no onrushing artest. artest had grabbed the other guy and everyone was trying to hold artest back. then this fan threw his beer on artest's face. that's when stephen jackson hit him.

the players didn't throw things into the stands trying to injure fans. the fans threw their beer on the pacers while on the court not causing any harm to anything.


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## rocketeer

> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> So........
> 
> Is it ok for Artest to hit the wrong guy?


was it the wrong guy?

the guy was pointing at artest and yelling at him as artest ran up. he may not have thrown the original beer. but he did something that caused artest to think he did or to make him come after him. that doesn't make it right, but there was a reason why artest did it. he didn't just randomly run into the crowd beating random people.

and did he ever even hit the guy? he grabbed him and never tried to swing until he was being held by several people. i didn't see him ever actually hit the guy.

artest didn't do the right thing by running into the stands. but he did and should be suspended for it(for around 10 games).


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## eternal_s9o7m

I just notice in the vid if you watch after Artest gets pulled away from the initial confrontation with the fan, as he's making his way back to the court I saw him throw at least 2 punches at fans, and both looked to connect. watch carefully, you'll see it


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## jvanbusk

Something new has emerged.

Apparently Jermaine O'Neal really punched someone good in the tunnel on the way back to the lockerrom. It was NOT caught by cameras but witnessed by security and officers. Apparently he could be looking at a criminal case for this.

This was just reported on Sportcenter.


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## KokoTheMonkey

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Something new has emerged.
> 
> Apparently Jermaine O'Neal really punched someone good in the tunnel on the way back to the lockerrom. It was NOT caught by cameras but witnessed by security and officers. Apparently he could be looking at a criminal case for this.
> 
> This was just reported on Sportcenter.






Was there any more details or was that it? Was it a fan that got hit, or someone else? I remember seeing a ton of Pacers' players and coaches being in that path, but I don't remember seeing someone there for O'neal to hit.


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## jvanbusk

> Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Was there any more details or was that it? Was it a fan that got hit, or someone else? I remember seeing a ton of Pacers' players and coaches being in that path, but I don't remember seeing someone there for O'neal to hit.


They did not say and it is still under investigation.

Did anyone else catch this interview?


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## #1BucksFan

And everyone laughed in the fantasy draft when I picked Austin Croshere


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## LeBronisnumba1

Any body got some pictures of this brawl I would appreciate them thank you!!!


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## Gonzo

If anyone thinks that the fans were the only ones hurt, they are wrong. 

Ron Artest has suffered a few injuries as well.


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## Gonzo

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> They did not say and it is still under investigation.
> 
> Did anyone else catch this interview?


I heard it


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## Donkey Wearing Thong

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Something new has emerged.
> 
> Apparently Jermaine O'Neal really punched someone good in the tunnel on the way back to the lockerrom. It was NOT caught by cameras but witnessed by security and officers. Apparently he could be looking at a criminal case for this.
> 
> This was just reported on Sportcenter.


Sorry, but this is gonna stand up about as well as a Pistons fan after getting slammed in the face by Jermaine O'Neal.
They cant take the security guards words for this, as they have obvious vendettas against the Pacers players. Jermaine O'Neal was caught leaving the floor on camera, and there was clearly no altercation.
If I was O'Neal, I'd sue these security guards for defamation of character, then I'd use their cash to add a new addition to my mansion and invite them over sometime.


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## kflo

why would police officers have a vendetta against pacer players?


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## Donkey Wearing Thong

Why would police have vendettas against anybody when they're suppose to be 100% fair?
I can assure you, 90% of police officers hate young, rich, black athletes. Combine that with the fact that I'm sure they're upset that the Pacers "started a riot" (when infact their reluctence to take action resulted in the escelation), and there's a great chance that most of these guys are actual Pistons fans and its really not that hard to understand.


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## XYRYX

nearly 30000 views and more than 1100 replys!

 

Definetly the fastst growing Thread and the most exciting thing of the whole season!

Time to order a Ron Artest jersey right now. This guy is a walking human highlight! 

And probably the biggest punk in sports history! I love this guy!


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## -James-

suspensions have been announced...

ron ron's got 30 games

JO and jax have 20 games apiece

big ben has 5.


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## BallStateCards

> Originally posted by <b>-James-</b>
> suspensions have been announced...
> 
> ron ron's got 30 games
> 
> JO and jax have 20 games apiece
> 
> big ben has 5.


They haven't been announced, Fox just believes they got the leak. Neither ESPN nor NBA have put out their punishment.


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## Crossword

> Originally posted by <b>PhillyPhanatic</b>!
> 
> 
> Wallace had no reason to come back at Artest like that overreacting. I know Artest is going to get a good amount of blame, but I don't blame him for going off like that, fans should know their place and watch the game. If you're upset leave the stadium, you'll be calmed down by the time you get to the car, don't throw stuff on the players.


*edited: Don't characterize entire fanbases*


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## Crossword

By the way, this is turning out to be the best rivalry <b>ever</b>...


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## HeinzGuderian

> Originally posted by <b>Budweiser_Boy</b>!
> By the way, this is turning out to be the best rivalry <b>ever</b>...


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## Kaas

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats the thing. Where do you draw the line? A fan is pointing a gun at a player on the team they're rooting against, and a teammate of that player jumps into the crowd and knocks him out. Is that the players fault too? Gotta show more patience right? There is no reason to attack a fan right? That is ridiculous, poitn blank.
> 
> I mean, these players aren't Jesus, they aren't in a professional basketball league because they are incredibly forgiving and patient. They play basketball. If a fan is less than 10 feet away ridiculing you for 2 hours straight, throwing things at you, and throwing his drink at you, he is asking to be knocked out.
> 
> Stop placing unhuman expectations on players, and stop allowing fans to crucify players for 2 hours every night. The balance here isn't getting players to show more restraint, its getting fans to show more support for their team and not hate for the opposing team.
> 
> NBA players do a fantastic job of keeping their cool 99.9% of the time, but one incident makes them look bad, and makes them look like they can't ever keep it together. NBA fans are ruthless 99.9% of the time, and that one 0.01 of the time where the player does lose his cool, the fan escapes with the title of the victim. Its *ridiculous*.


Took the words out of my mouth.


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## AJC NYC

funny stuff


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## someone

damn nice bump!


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## Knick Killer

Thanks to this Brawl that you all thought was "Awesome" the Pacers stink today. This game totally changed the franchise and the fans. Detroit got lucky and didnt have harsh suspensions even though Big Ben deserved a suspension almost like Artest. Ron just went down after this and so did the team. The Pacers-Pistons brawl makes me sick and I am almost ashamed that my favorite team would be so stupid.


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## leidout

Such great memories, i can only dream that this'll happen again this season!


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## Knick Killer

leidout said:


> Such great memories, i can only dream that this'll happen again this season!


You obviously dont get what this did to the League and the Pacers and Pistons. This was a wake up call to David Stern for him to get rid of the NBA's "thug" image. This had some part to do with rules like the Dress Code. The league now has much harsher suspensions and isn't afraid to fine players for big bucks either.


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