# The Knick frontline



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

The line last night

Thomas - 4 points, 11 rebounds, 5 blocks, 37 mins
Van Horn - 14 points, 8 rebounds, 1 block, 32 mins
Mutombo - 4 points, 7 rebounds, 3 blocks, 25 mins
Anderson - 8 points, 5 rebounds, 27 mins
Harrington - 12 points, 5 rebounds, 1 block, 13 mins
Doleac - 6 points, 2 rebounds, 16 mins

Combined - 54 points, 38 rebounds, 10 blocks, 150 mins

The Magic on the other hand...

Gooden - 14 points, 9 rebounds, 3 blocks, 40 mins
Howard - 14 points, 10 rebounds, 35 mins
Hunter - 8 rebounds, 1 block, 29 mins
DeQlerq - 2 points, 4 rebounds, 13 mins
Harvey - 2 rebounds, 9 mins
Johnsen - 2 points, 1 rebound, 3 mins

Combined - 42 points, 34 rebounds, 4 blocks, 129 mins

McGrady played some minutes at SF I think. He and Lue both played 41 mins. Gaines played 7 mins, which accounts for one player, but Shammond Williams played 22 mins, which means McGrady must have moved over to SF.

But anyway, the point of this topic was to show how badly outplayed the Knick frontline was.

*cough*


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## Phate01 (Jun 6, 2003)

Whhat are you trying to do there Rashidi? Obtain lord of sarcasm of this messageboard. I mean christ every post I read ure being sarcastic but then I suppose we've earned it kinda. Still a long season to go hopefully they can keep it up.


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## Schottsie (Jun 25, 2003)

They need to let Sweetney get more minutes and touches. He can get to the line and score on this level if they just loosen up the rotation.


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## NYCbballFan (Jun 8, 2003)

That was such a pathetic display of basketball by both teams last night, I had fun watching it. 

I had to marvel out how some of the most highly paid and, in at least one case, talented players in the NBA could play THAT badly.

It's not like the defense was that great. They just couldn't do anything right.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Whhat are you trying to do there Rashidi? Obtain lord of sarcasm of this messageboard. I mean christ every post I read ure being sarcastic but then I suppose we've earned it kinda


I am tired of every Knick fan acting like they have the worst players in the league on their team, that every player on the team is worthless, despite the fact that they did win 36 games with this team, and were .500 when Latrell Sprewell came back (meaning they would have made the playoffs if he reported his injury and gotten treatment sooner). Knick fans have a bandwagon mentality now, where nothing is good, and everything is wrong.


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## Jmonty580 (Jun 20, 2003)

^^^ You've gotta understand that its extremely frustrating to be a knicks fan right now. As fans we're used to our team being considered one the best and most competetive teams in the league. For 15 straight years we've been in the playoffs (i think its 15) and now we cant even make the playoffs and even if we did we probably wouldnt be very competetive and would only be there because so many other teams sucked worst than us. We expect more out of our team, so its only natrual for us to be very critticle of whats going on.
Knicks fans have nowhere near a bandwagon mentality, we stick with our team through thick and thin, but you gotta allow us to vent alittle when our team doesnt perform.
As far as us complaining about our players we have good reason. Alot of our players are good bench players but thats about it. Allan Houston and Kieth Van Horn are the only true starters that our team has and they arent even NBA superstars. Then we have a slew of PF's who all basically have the same game, which is undersized overacheivers, who for the most part try hard but even then it tends not to be enough. KT is a solid role player, and Harrington and Spoon are like poorer versions of thomas, one has the skill while the other one has the youth and to top it off they are both overpaid. You'd think that being one the teams with the highest salaries would make a difference. 

When it comes down to the bottom line we dont have the worst players in the league but we probably have the worst combonation of players in the league, and the worst management and choaching staff in the league. We have 20 millions pf's that all do the same thing, and then we go and draft to more pf who cant even get pt. Then we dont even have a back up sg and are only consistent scorer is out with an injury. To top it off are coach is an idiot who cant even pick 5 players to play on the floor. He cant make up his mind who should play pg, or wheather or not to give Sweetney any pt, and he has also planted Lampe on the IL. And we're supposed to be happy when we're just in the Finals in 99 and had a chance to win the title through out the 90's. Its tough on us true knicks fans to endure such crap from this organization, so please excuse us if we get down on our team alittle bit.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> You've gotta understand that its extremely frustrating to be a knicks fan right now.


I've been a Knick fan for 10 years, and I don't really buy that excuse. There are plenty of other teams suffering more than the Knicks, even now. The Suns are the oldest franchise in the NBA to never win a championship. The T'Wolves have fielded talented teams and never gotten past the first round. The Magic have had Shaq defect, Penny and Hill suffer major injuries, and were spurned by Duncan. They've had many chances to dominate the NBA, but instead are perennially .500. The Grizzlies haven't even made the playoffs yet. The Nets were a mockery until Kidd showed up. The Hawks are a mockery today. The Jazz are about to enter a very long rebuilding process, one that Chicago is still going through. The Warriors fielded their most competitive team in 10 years, and then lost their top 2 young players. The last time the Wizards made the playoffs they were eliminated BY a guy named Jordan, and their name was the Bullets. They haven't won 50 games since 78-79. The Clippers - nuff said.

There are plenty of teams with bad situations like NY, and plenty have worse situations. The Knicks were a .500 team with Spree and Houston, and would have been even better if McDyess had been healthy, in the east today, that is enough to get you to the Conference Finals.



> As fans we're used to our team being considered one the best and most competetive teams in the league. For 15 straight years we've been in the playoffs (i think its 15) and now we cant even make the playoffs and even if we did we probably wouldnt be very competetive and would only be there because so many other teams sucked worst than us.


Welcome to the rest of the NBA. 

What most people fail to realize is that all you need to make the playoffs in the east is a competitive team. If you can't make the playoffs in the east, then that REALLY means you suck. The Knicks at least have a shot, like pretty much every other team in the east. What about the west? None of those teams have a chance in hell to make the playoffs. Lakers, Kings, Spurs, Mavs are the best 4 teams in the league, forget the conference. T'Wolves, Rockets, Suns, and Blazers round out the rest of the conference. None of the other west teams even has a prayer, unless a catastrophic injury were to affect one of the bottom 3 in the top 8. So count your blessings, instead of comparing yourselves to the Clippers. You don't even know what being a Clipper or Wizard fan would be like.




> We expect more out of our team, so its only natrual for us to be very critticle of whats going on.


I believe the saying goes something like "You're trying to dry blood from a stone". Why expect more out of something that isn't there? Patrick Ewing hasn't been a Knick for 5 years, and the fans and media are the ones that drove him out of town in the first place.



> Knicks fans have nowhere near a bandwagon mentality, we stick with our team through thick and thin, but you gotta allow us to vent alittle when our team doesnt perform.


No, the problem is the team performs, just not at the level fans would like. Shandon Anderson, Howard Eisley, Clarance Weatherspoon, Othella Harrington, etc, have done their jobs in NY. They played the way they always play. The problem is the starting lineup is not any good, it is filled out by too many bench players. The Knicks have two borderline stars, an aging defensive stalwart that doesn't play 30 minutes, and two backups(Yes, Kurt Thomas is a backup, even if he is a good one).

All I see on this board is attacking the Knick bench, when it's one of thier strengths, and blaming Layden for assembling the team. Well, what exactly has Layden done that was so different from past NY teams? Ewing was always surrounded with inferior talent, the Knicks didn't get good until they got lucky with 2 guys from the CBA, Mason and Starks. They were able to turn those 2 CBA guys into Larry Johnson and Latrell Sprewell. So I think people should give Pat Riley a lot more credit than Ernie Gurnfeld or any other past GM, because other than those 2 CBA guys, the Knicks were exactly the same as the Layden Knicks.

I always hear that NY is a place Free Agents love to go to, that Free Agents wanted to come to NY before Layden came around? Since when?!? Maybe they're confusing the Yankees and Mets (who don't have to deal with stuff like a SALARY CAP) with the Knicks. The last marquee free agent the Knicks were even able to attract was Allan Houston back in 96. When did this marquee free agent ever arrive during the Ewing era? Marquee free agents love to play in NY, just not on the Knicks. 

The Knicks have always built their teams through trades, and they always traded their draft picks to get veterans. The 94 Knicks had two players that came up from the CBA and became major contributors (Mason and Starks). They had two players that had been with the team since forever (Ewing and Oakley), they had two draftees they hadn't dealt yet (Anthony and Davis), and the rest were veterans they acquired through trades (Charles Smith, Derek Harper, Rolando Blackman, Doc Rivers). Sprewell was acquired via trade. Camby was acquired via trade. McDyess was acquired via trade. Mark Jackson, Othella Harrington, Shandon Anderson, Howard Eisley, Glen Rice, all acquired via trade. The Knicks have probably signed more players during the Layden era than they ever did in any other era. They signed Mutombo, Weatherspoon, and Doleac. Last year Spoon was the team's best rebounder on a team that badly needed rebounding (and typically, the fans here despise him), and Doleac is one of the few players on the team that can play center AND score. Yet people are currently trying to associate him with Layden since he is from Utah, so they get an excuse to villify him too. As for those guys acquired via trade, if Shandon Anderson and Howard Eisley are as bad as the people here say, then how come they were respectively 4th and 5th on the team in scoring? They've done their jobs, so why are they the problem?




> KT is a solid role player, and Harrington and Spoon are like poorer versions of thomas, one has the skill while the other one has the youth and to top it off they are both overpaid. You'd think that being one the teams with the highest salaries would make a difference.





> When it comes down to the bottom line we dont have the worst players in the league but we probably have the worst combonation of players in the league, and the worst management and choaching staff in the league.


The worst combination of players in the league would be Utah, and the worst coaching staff in the league? Well, it's hard to tell who has the worst staff, since 12 teams decided to change coaches this summer. Chaney is a former coach of the year, and he did a better job last year than he is given credit for. The Knicks were a .500 team with Spree and Houston, and would have made the playoffs if Spree were healthy at the start of the year. The team started 2-10, and contended for a playoff spot. NOBODY expected that from them last year, they expected the Knicks to have a horrid 20 win season. Sports Illustrated ranked them as the 2nd worst team in the east last year. The Knicks exceeded expectations - which in my eyes means the team did a good job. Which means that yes, the coach also did a good job, because he is the one that led them there.



> We have 20 millions pf's that all do the same thing, and then we go and draft to more pf who cant even get pt.


Lampe is 18, 99% of NBA 18 year olds do not contribute during their rookie years. Lebron is pretty much the only one to play at a semi-high level, but I don't expect that to last over the course of a season, since 18 year olds don't have the neccessary conditioning to last through an 82 game season. Saying the Knicks had a bad draft by drafting Lampe is like saying the Pistons had a bad draft because they took Darko and they're not playing him. Today he is not going to contribute a lot, but down the line, he is expected to be a star. Same with Lampe. Give him 3 years. In 3 years btw, Spoon will be gone, and Harrington probably won't even last the year. KT is also gone as an FA if the Knicks don't deal him, so presto, playing time available for young PFs.



> Then we dont even have a back up sg and are only consistent scorer is out with an injury.


Shandon Anderson scored 8 ppg in about 20 minutes last year, that's quite a good ratio. The team has a decent backup SG. The team would prefer to use him at SF though, which is why they are pursuing a backup SG. They use him at SF mostly for defensive assignments, it is hard to backup Houston when you are busy guarding McGrady. There also isn't much point to using Eisley as the backup SG, because the team would like to trade Ward, and like Anderson would prefer to use Eisley at only one position off the bench.



> To top it off are coach is an idiot who cant even pick 5 players to play on the floor. He cant make up his mind who should play pg, or wheather or not to give Sweetney any pt, and he has also planted Lampe on the IL.


How is utilizing the versatility of a deep bench a bad thing?



> And we're supposed to be happy when we're just in the Finals in 99 and had a chance to win the title through out the 90's.


Yes, you SHOULD be happy. You've had two Finals appearances in 10 years, how many other teams can say the same? It's not the end result that matters, it's the path you take to get there that matters. The Knicks were the only 8th seed in NBA history to make the Finals. In all the history of other 8th seeds, the Knicks were only the 2nd one to even advance. Consider yourself lucky. Winning is not an excuse for whining. Nothing lasts forever. You think Utah is complaining about the run they had?


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

It's nice to see that you're passionate about the knicks, but there is no reason to bash someone for wanting there team to do better. Other than Newmessiah really not a lot of knick bashing goes on here, just speculation which is often tempered by hope.




As for what layden did to this team, it's easy. He maxed out and overpaid a bunch of players who either retired and milked us or, whose talent level made them way way way overpaid and thusly untradeable, in short he restricted our ability to do a true rebuild( Glenn rice contract, shandon anderson contrac). He also made a stupid stupid choice in trading away Camby and the first rounder for A Mcd. Let's face facts if A mcd comes back healthy he will never ever be the same player he was, He relied solely on his freakish athleticism, then tore his patella.

He refused to show Milos the money ( whether he is worth it or not is another thing but a two year team option contract would certainly let us know)


Furthermore he has not secured us anything for the future, so while we hover at mediocrity we have to cheer while knowing that nearly all of our players are over 30 and have long expensive contracts, in short he has put this franchise in a deathgrip.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Your right about one thing, NY has never been the place for good free agents to come. Reason why is the media scrutiny for coming to the Knicks is almost too much. If Chris Webber thought he had too much criticism while in Sacto, what would happen if they choked in the Garden. What the Knicks need is a Lebron type superstar that could leave them to the next level, but they never rebuild so the odds of that happening are very poor.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

And again the reason some of us or so pissed, is that this draft is VERY deep and the more picks we had the easier it would be for us all to feel positive about our future.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> As for what layden did to this team, it's easy. He maxed out and overpaid a bunch of players who either retired and milked us


Larry Johnson got more money than Luc Longley and Travis Knight, if that's what you mean.




> whose talent level made them way way way overpaid and thusly untradeable, in short he restricted our ability to do a true rebuild( Glenn rice contract, shandon anderson contrac)


That point is argueable though, because NY has absolutely no intention of rebuilding though, that much is blatantly obvious. The city can't even tolerate a 30 win team. What makes you think they'll tolerate a sub-20 win team any better? The team is only profitable if it wins. From a dollars standpoint, if the Knicks were to rebuild, it would cost too much money. They have to stay competitive, or they'll suffer huge losses.

And also, rebuilding is far easier said than done. If it were so easy, then the Warriors and Wizards would be on top by now. Both have been rebuilding for 10 years. The Bulls have been rebuilding for 5 years, and they're still trying to work their way into the fray of a weak eastern conference. There is also no need for a full rebuild, because the team is still profitable. it is profitable because of the huge revenue the team makes on tickets. The team does not mind taking on huge contracts because they can pay them off. Were McDyess healthy, this team would be a bonafide contender in the east, so there is not and should not be any sense of urgency to rebuild. NY is not Atlanta. 

Do you think Mark Cuban and the Dallas Mavericks will ever rebuild? The team was horrible for a long time before Cuban and his billions came along, do you think they are willing to go back to that?

How about the Lakers? They never rebuilt. They did the same thing the Knicks are doing, putting together mediocre teams as they bide their time waiting for a player to come along. Before Shaq and Kobe, they had Cedric Ceballos and Nick Van Exel. The worst season the Lakers had between Kareem and Shaq was 93-94 when they were 33-49. You don't need to go through a full rebuilding process to build a team again. That only happens in the event of a regime change, or a change in team philosophy. The philosphy in NY will never change, it has been the same for too long, and as proven by the fans, they are unwilling to accept such a change. The Knick fans who buy tickets cannot handle losing, which means the team cannot handle losing.



> He also made a stupid stupid choice in trading away Camby and the first rounder for A Mcd.


What was so stupid about it? Camby is just as injury prone as McDyess, if not more. He is currently the Nugget's highest paid player, and has another year left. At least McDyess will bring cap relief if he can't play this season. The Knicks were also able to dump Mark Jackson's contract on the Nuggets, and they essentially dealt Nene for Frank Williams and Lampe. The Knicks could very easily be the winners of this trade, depending on how Lampe turns out.



> Let's face facts if A mcd comes back healthy he will never ever be the same player he was, He relied solely on his freakish athleticism, then tore his patella.


That makes him equivalent to Kurt Thomas. That's still not a bad thing.



> He refused to show Milos the money ( whether he is worth it or not is another thing but a two year team option contract would certainly let us know)


Layden showed Milos the money, it was Milos who decided that he did not want to be a 3rd string PG. He wants to start, and he should. He's the best PG in Europe. Not only that, but he can score, something the Knicks need. He averaged 25 ppg and 3 apg last year. He will probably come over next year when Ward is gone. Layden offered him half of the MLE, which is a lot for a player taken in the 2nd round that has never played in the NBA. Vujanic is likely using this year in Europe for additional contract leverage.




> Furthermore he has not secured us anything for the future, so while we hover at mediocrity we have to cheer while knowing that nearly all of our players are over 30 and have long expensive contracts, in short he has put this franchise in a deathgrip.


Sweetney, Lampe, Vujanic, Williams, Van Horn, and to an extent Vranes and Doleac. The pieces may not be visible right now, but they are certainly there. Another thing to take into consideration is the draft is getting deeper and deeper with the inclusion of high schoolers and europeans. You can get good players throughout the first round now. Most of the players drafted this year are contributing, and that includes some of the 2nd rounders.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Larry Johnson got more money than Luc Longley and Travis Knight, if that's what you mean.


and = or in that sentence, point being LJ's $$$$ and all those other players got much more than they would from any other franchise.



> That point is argueable though, because NY has absolutely no intention of rebuilding though, that much is blatantly obvious. The city can't even tolerate a 30 win team. What makes you think they'll tolerate a sub-20 win team any better? The team is only profitable if it wins. From a dollars standpoint, if the Knicks were to rebuild, it would cost too much money. They have to stay competitive, or they'll suffer huge losses.
> 
> And also, rebuilding is far easier said than done. If it were so easy, then the Warriors and Wizards would be on top by now. Both have been rebuilding for 10 years. The Bulls have been rebuilding for 5 years, and they're still trying to work their way into the fray of a weak eastern conference. There is also no need for a full rebuild, because the team is still profitable. it is profitable because of the huge revenue the team makes on tickets. The team does not mind taking on huge contracts because they can pay them off. Were McDyess healthy, this team would be a bonafide contender in the east, so there is not and should not be any sense of urgency to rebuild. NY is not Atlanta.
> 
> ...


No, the mavs went through some rough times had great drafts made great trades and kept there cap low enough to max out players that should be there, they never once overpaid a player, this allowed them to take on bad contracts ( Wahad) and still rebuild through the draft and trades. Nash and Finely were great acquistions, Raef was overpaid but with the numbers he was putting up, he would have got that money from anywhere else , Bradley too.

A far cry from Glen rice, Allen Houston, Clarence weatherspoon, charlie ward, and howard eisely. 


The lakers did pretty much the same thing except they traded there picks for draftable commodities, kept there cap space low and maxed out the most dominant player in the game, then they had a stellar draft and good role players.


What was so stupid about it? Camby is just as injury prone as McDyess, if not more. He is currently the Nugget's highest paid player, and has another year left. At least McDyess will bring cap relief if he can't play this season. The Knicks were also able to dump Mark Jackson's contract on the Nuggets, and they essentially dealt Nene for Frank Williams and Lampe. The Knicks could very easily be the winners of this trade, depending on how Lampe turns out.



That makes him equivalent to Kurt Thomas. That's still not a bad thing.



> Layden showed Milos the money, it was Milos who decided that he did not want to be a 3rd string PG. He wants to start, and he should. He's the best PG in Europe. Not only that, but he can score, something the Knicks need. He averaged 25 ppg and 3 apg last year. He will probably come over next year when Ward is gone. Layden offered him half of the MLE, which is a lot for a player taken in the 2nd round that has never played in the NBA. Vujanic is likely using this year in Europe for additional contract leverage.


If he had offered the same amount of money milos is making with I think partizan, milos would have taken in it, instead his intial offer was a fraction of the MLE.





> Sweetney, Lampe, Vujanic, Williams, Van Horn, and to an extent Vranes and Doleac. The pieces may not be visible right now, but they are certainly there. Another thing to take into consideration is the draft is getting deeper and deeper with the inclusion of high schoolers and europeans. You can get good players throughout the first round now. Most of the players drafted this year are contributing, and that includes some of the 2nd rounders.


No point guard, Nor Shooting guard, No center ( Lampe is a PF, though I am sure the knicks will screw this up) Frank Williams is just not that good, he is like the joe johnson of pointguards except he doesn't have near as m uch potential. Van horn is iffy. Sweetney the jury is still out on, he is after all an undersized powerforward, Doleac is a decent back up center, and Vranes... well we'll see but I don't think he'll ever start. 


We have no

Franchise player

Scorer

Or stability. We have no system, not team philosphy nothing. Which is why I hope we have a cavalier of a season trade some goombahs for picks and pick up all we can in this draft.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Also with the Mcdyess Camby thing, yes, Camby was as injury prone as Mcdyess that's the point. Camby when healthy is exteremly skilled is not worth a first round draft choice AND a player of his caliber.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> No, the mavs went through some rough times had great drafts made great trades and kept there cap low enough to max out players that should be there, they never once overpaid a player, this allowed them to take on bad contracts ( Wahad) and still rebuild through the draft and trades. Nash and Finely were great acquistions, Raef was overpaid but with the numbers he was putting up, he would have got that money from anywhere else , Bradley too.


1998
Dallas trades Robert Traylor for Dirk Nowitzki and Pat Garrity
Dallas trades Pat Garrity, Bubba Wells, Martin Muursepp, and 99 1st round pick for Steve Nash.

Probably the biggest draft night heist in years.

Abdul Wahad is VERY overpaid. So was Evan Eschmeyer. They also gave Michael Finley $100 million, like the Knicks gave to Houston.

Cuban did not draft and trade for all those players, but he's the one that signs the checks, which means he's the one that keeps the team competitive. It's no coincidence that all the teams with high payrolls are run by billionaires. Paul Allen and the Blazers had the highest payroll for awhile. Other teams have to live with their mistakes. The Pacers gave Jeff Foster a big contract last year. That big contract was the big reason why they couldn't re-sign Brad Miller. The Kings had a much deeper bench years ago, but they can't afford to keep it so deep anymore. They had to part with both Jim Jackson and Hedo Turkoglu this season, and will instead hope that Anthony Peeler and Gerald Wallace can get it done.

The Mavs have a 78 million dollar payroll, a number that will increase even further, likely to 85 million since Nash wants a new contract. That will give them 5 players making more than 10 million a year. There are plenty of teams that don't even have 50 million dollar payrolls. So yeah, a big chunk of Dallas success goes to Cuban. It's kind of hard to have a 20 win season with an 80 million dollar payroll.




> A far cry from Glen rice, Allen Houston, Clarence weatherspoon, charlie ward, and howard eisely.


Ward, Eisley, and Spoon don't even make more than 6 million. Wahad makes more than all of them. Danny Fortson also makes 6 million, he's not too different from Clarence Weatherspoon. The Mavs have their guys signed to much long term deals just like NY. 8 players on the Mavs are signed through 06-07 or longer.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

*It all starts at the top*

Rashidi,what you fail to realise or just dont want to,is the Knicks have been getting progressively worse,largely due to poor management,trade and draft decisions....And if i am not mistaken they have the poorest win/payroll ratio in the league while playing in the pathetic eastern conference...

Losing is one thing...Having the highest payroll and stinking up the joint is another...

And please dont say if Dyess was healthy,we would be a playoff team..If Dyess was healthy,he would still be in Denver...

The Knicks are the baltimore orioles of basketball,or for that matter the ny rangers .....High payroll and nothing to show for it...Its not bad luck,its bad managemnt...why do you think the yanks win year after year,while the dodgers struggle???George lives to be the best,while Dolan lives for revenues....George makes changes and surrounds himself with talented personel...You think layden would last a day in the yankee organisation??And how in the world did chaney get a contract extension.Its a joke,and this years record will prove it..It all starts at the top,and until those blithering idiots are gone,be satisfied for the 9th or 10th pick in the draft


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> And please dont say if Dyess was healthy,we would be a playoff team..If Dyess was healthy,he would still be in Denver...


In case you forgot, McDyess was deemed healthy and cleared to play last year. And he played at his 20/10 level before his knee gave out. Denver traded him because they wanted to take the team in another direction, which they've done a good job of so far. Neither team expected him to get hurt again.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> 1998
> ...


Exactly, they had enough cap space to take Wahad's crappy contract.

Evan eschmeyer makes ~ 3 mil a year, he is not some big cap sucker. Finely at the time was a franchise player, look at his numbers, this guy was paul pierce until he started deffering shots to other people, he is a power guard who can do everything score, rebound, assist, he is unselfish etc. He might have been a little over paid in dallas but not as much as you think he had some big offers that year after the phoenix trade, he has a lot to do with their success as a team now.



> Cuban did not draft and trade for all those players, but he's the one that signs the checks, which means he's the one that keeps the team competitive. It's no coincidence that all the teams with high payrolls are run by billionaires. Paul Allen and the Blazers had the highest payroll for awhile. Other teams have to live with their mistakes. The Pacers gave Jeff Foster a big contract last year. That big contract was the big reason why they couldn't re-sign Brad Miller. The Kings had a much deeper bench years ago, but they can't afford to keep it so deep anymore. They had to part with both Jim Jackson and Hedo Turkoglu this season, and will instead hope that Anthony Peeler and Gerald Wallace can get it done.
> 
> The Mavs have a 78 million dollar payroll, a number that will increase even further, likely to 85 million since Nash wants a new contract. That will give them 5 players making more than 10 million a year. There are plenty of teams that don't even have 50 million dollar payrolls. So yeah, a big chunk of Dallas success goes to Cuban. It's kind of hard to have a 20 win season with an 80 million dollar payroll.


We won 17 games more at what was it 4-5 million dollars less, that's bad business, especially in the EC.




> Ward, Eisley, and Spoon don't even make more than 6 million. Wahad makes more than all of them. Danny Fortson also makes 6 million, he's not too different from Clarence Weatherspoon. The Mavs have their guys signed to much long term deals just like NY. 8 players on the Mavs are signed through 06-07 or longer.


Danny Fortson once lead the league in rebounds. Spoon makes 5.4 mil this year Eisley 5.8 and charlie makes 6 mil this year, so yes they do come very close and in wards case they do make 6 mil a year. 

What you're not realizing about the mavs, is that while they have similar contracts, their talent level is out the roof and this allows them to trade players while retaining their original talent. They gave those big contracts to players who deserved them and absorbed players into the team who weren't severly overpaid for their mediocre talent and could be traded.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

"Lampe is 18, 99% of NBA 18 year olds do not contribute during their rookie years."

Tmac, kobe, KG, Moses, stoudemire all got at least 20 minutes a game their rookie years...

And Chaney isn't a good coach. Sure he won coach of the year, but look who was on that team. And winning that award doesnt make you anything special. Magic are thinking of firing Rivers, even though he won coach of the year the year before mcgrady and hill went there. When asked why he didnt bring ward back in the game he said "I was caught in the flow of the game"....yeah great excuse. Why didnt Mutombo play the last two quarters yesterday? Im not buying the idea to match up with the other teams quickness, since the other knick forwards and centers arent exactly fast. but yeah, lets not use the only defensive presence on the team because we love blowing leads.

Layden isnt the genius your making him out to be. there was never been a trade in the knicks favor since he came here, every was either even or one sided. When Dallas traded LaFrentz, a player that was pretty useless on their team, for Antoine Walker, obviously dallas got the better end of that deal. Forget what lafrentz did in denver, since Denver sucked. Next lets look at the Twolves. They traded cap room(brandon) and got Spree, they got cassel for joe smith..who was the worst number 1 pick in the history of the league. Now if we had a guy like these guys who keep improving the team every single year then we would have a great team.

Our draft picks are overrated and suck. 18 or 22, they suck. Not only do they suck, but they both play power forward, where we have one 2 many players at...

ok


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

*mcdyess*

Mcdyess did average 20 and 10,but he was out the full year before he was traded.....The Knick doctors deemed him ready to play,the very same ones that never diagnosed camby properly...

I love Dysse,but the odds of a player coming back from a patella type injury,where there was little regeneration is not great..


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

*Penny*

good points...And what is that ridiculous line that "I wanted to match up with the others team quickness"????Does that mean Jackson should bench Shaq or Pop should bench Duncan to match up better against the Mavs??

Chaney should admit one of two things..Hes not qualified to be coach,or Deke has very little left as the Nets and Sixers clearly felt.

And just in case coach chaney is on this forum,it wasnt the Bucks big mens quickness that was killing us,it was TJ Fords quickness that hurt us..you know, the guy Knick management insists they would still take Sweetney over if Ford was available at #9...:upset:


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Tmac, kobe, KG, Moses, stoudemire all got at least 20 minutes a game their rookie years...


Garnett was 19 in his rookie year. And guess what? He had to earn his minutes. He was on the bench for the first half of the season behind Laettner.

Amare was 20 in his rookie year. The only reason he got so much PT is because starting PF Tom Gugliotta went down early for a significant period of time.

Moses played his first 2 seasons in the weak ABA. He didn't come to the NBA until he was 21.

Kobe got 15 minutes per game.

McGrady got 18 minutes per game on a 16 win Raptor team. He didn't play well until he was 20.

These guys are exceptions and not the norm. These guys are superstars. Lampe is likely not going to be a superstar. Compare him to players with a similar talent level. Like...

Jonathon Bender. The 5th pick acquired for Antonio Davis. Played 5 mpg his rookie year at the age of 19.

Al Harrington. Played 7 minutes per game and only 21 games at the age of 18.

Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry did not average 20 minutes at the age of 18, only about 15-18. They put together some "ok for a high schooler" numbers.


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