# Let's be real... what do we really need?



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Ok, here is what I'm thinking. This is nothing new but just to point it out... the only thing we need is a solid 5. A real 5.

Calderon/Ford
Parker/Fino
Moon/Kap/Fino
Bosh/AB/Humphries
?????/AB

Let's be real, AB is very talented and will most likely be a superstar in a few years... However, he is just a bad fit for this team.

We have 2 choices, trade him away for a 5 that we can actually use. Athletic, Defensive, Rebound Monster and Shotblocker

or we wait until he develops into a Dirk like player which could take another 3 years.

The way I see it, if we could just get our hands on somebody like Dalember (not thinking about contracts here) we would be a title contender. Fino and Parker are our perimeter lockdowns, nothing needs to be said about our PG (assuming Ford is healthy) our 3 which was our big weakness is not too deep Bosh is at the 4. We just need a player that can do Defensive duties for Bosh in the paint and somebody athletic enough so that he can score in the paint without necessarily having a low post game.


Conclusion: Trade AB as soon as his stock is high. We will end up regretting it on the long run but we need to win now. We need a player like Dalember/Chandler/Perkins/Diop.

With that 5, I don't see how we cannot be a title contender.


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

A monster 5 really helps the current state of the team, but he won't turn you into a title contender. Toronto has plenty of solid roleplayers, but only one star. Some minor reworking would help a lot. I just don't see anyone but Bosh & Calderon being stars.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

To be fair the spurs have won with only 1 star. Parker and Manu weren't stars before the last title.


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## RX (May 24, 2006)

We shoulda traded Ford, Rasho, Graham, and Dixon for Gasol and Navarro!

Then we could roll out the Spanish National team + Bosh!


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Andrea is not going anywhere! This year and next will be Boston and Detroit years, could we sneak in sure, but we need to continue with the young guys we have and build with a player in the draft or a small trade. The only spot I see us getting an upgrade at is the 3 spot....someone like a Ron Artest or Nocioni could be a nice addition. They would bring toughness and rebounding to the front court. Will we get a player like that, I don't know. 

You are ready to trade the future for a one or two year run, not a good plan for me. We are just starting to Andrea become a player, shooting the ball, attacking the rim, and the rebounding is slowly coming along. I am happy with the direction we are headed and feel with a small tweak or two we will be a top 3 team in the East for years to come!


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

Dee-Zy said:


> To be fair the spurs have won with only 1 star. Parker and Manu weren't stars before the last title.


They were better than Bosh's supporting cast however. The game San Antonio plays can mess any team up. Toronto's "Euro Ball" may not be the key.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

billfindlay10 said:


> Andrea is not going anywhere! This year and next will be Boston and Detroit years, could we sneak in sure, but we need to continue with the young guys we have and build with a player in the draft or a small trade. The only spot I see us getting an upgrade at is the 3 spot....someone like a Ron Artest or Nocioni could be a nice addition. They would bring toughness and rebounding to the front court. Will we get a player like that, I don't know.
> 
> You are ready to trade the future for a one or two year run, not a good plan for me. We are just starting to Andrea become a player, shooting the ball, attacking the rim, and the rebounding is slowly coming along. I am happy with the direction we are headed and feel with a small tweak or two we will be a top 3 team in the East for years to come!



Good point I guess in my head I was thinking that our supporting cast wasnt young anymore because since BC came in he brought older guys for the win now mentality but come to think about it it is only AP and Garbo that aren't young. Moon isn't young but in 3 years he will be in his prime. Fino and Kap aren't young but still aren't in their prime yet either.

good point.

We will just have to go through 2-3 years of frustrating and be a 1rst/2nd round team.

/thread.


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## chocolove (Apr 4, 2006)

billfindlay10 said:


> Andrea is not going anywhere! This year and next will be Boston and Detroit years, could we sneak in sure, but we need to continue with the young guys we have and build with a player in the draft or a small trade. The only spot I see us getting an upgrade at is the 3 spot....someone like a Ron Artest or Nocioni could be a nice addition. They would bring toughness and rebounding to the front court. Will we get a player like that, I don't know.
> 
> You are ready to trade the future for a one or two year run, not a good plan for me. We are just starting to Andrea become a player, shooting the ball, attacking the rim, and the rebounding is slowly coming along. I am happy with the direction we are headed and feel with a small tweak or two we will be a top 3 team in the East for years to come!


I agree with this, even if the Raps get that centre they need we still arent gonna beat Detroit or Boston, and if we do come out of the East then we got either Phoenix, Spurs, Mavs, Lakers, etc. to go through. I think the course of action should be like AB and the others develop, make minor tweaks( maybe go for Mike Miller during this whole Memphis fire sale) and then after let 4-5 more years this thing aint happening then go nuts and trade for Shaq.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

lol @ trade for shaq in 4-5 years

The scary part is I think it might happend.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

chocolove said:


> I agree with this, even if the Raps get that centre they need we still arent gonna beat Detroit or Boston, and if we do come out of the East then we got either Phoenix, Spurs, Mavs, Lakers, etc. to go through. I think the course of action should be like AB and the others develop, make minor tweaks( maybe go for Mike Miller during this whole Memphis fire sale) and then after let 4-5 more years this thing aint happening then go nuts and trade for Shaq.


Miller!!!!!!??????? We have Kapono, Delfino, and AP who all shoot the ball very well....and Delfino and AP play solid "D" and can handle the ball.

The thing is...in he East Boston and Detroit are older then us, hell so is Orlando with Hedo and Lewis both born in the 70's. Out west San An will be slowing down in a few years as will the Suns and Mavs.....we just need to have the foundation now to make a run in 2010!!!!!!!!


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

billfindlay10 said:


> Miller!!!!!!??????? We have Kapono, Delfino, and AP who all shoot the ball very well....and Delfino and AP play solid "D" and can handle the ball.
> 
> The thing is...in he East Boston and Detroit are older then us, hell so is Orlando with Hedo and Lewis both born in the 70's. Out west San An will be slowing down in a few years as will the Suns and Mavs.....we just need to have the foundation now to make a run in 2010!!!!!!!!


But but we wouldn't get Shaq before 2012 or 2013!!!!!!:biggrin:


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Patience. AB is coming on strong. Once he and Bosh really click with each other and our point guards it's going to be lights out. He's not there yet and we're not there yet but that may be a blessing in disguise - higher draft pick but competitive with anyone in the Eastern playoffs, I hope.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

What we need most is a closer. Someone who can get it done in the last 2 minutes of close games and can't be stopped. Usually that is a wing player like Kobe, Jordan if you don't have the power C to go to.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

billfindlay10 said:


> Miller!!!!!!??????? We have Kapono, Delfino, and AP who all shoot the ball very well....and Delfino and AP play solid "D" and can handle the ball.
> 
> The thing is...in he East Boston and Detroit are older then us, hell so is Orlando with Hedo and Lewis both born in the 70's. Out west San An will be slowing down in a few years as will the Suns and Mavs.....we just need to have the foundation now to make a run in 2010!!!!!!!!


lol @ born in the 70's. They were born in 79. They are 28 years old, I didnt realize that was old.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

lucky777s said:


> What we need most is a closer. Someone who can get it done in the last 2 minutes of close games and can't be stopped. Usually that is a wing player like Kobe, Jordan if you don't have the power C to go to.


the ball almost never goes to the power center in the last 2 minutes. hell, shaq has only hit like 2 game winners in his career (though there's another factor at play besides scoring ability). Closers are shot creators and shot makers and we've got both. tj and bosh are SO hard to guard one on one and we've got the shooters to keep defenders close to home.

what we need is better rebounding. I've regained my confidence that Andrea can vastly improve his rebounding and will. We have a very good rebounder at the 3 in Moon but he needs to get stronger. We have a pretty good rebounder at the 2 in Delfino, who could begin starting next season if resigned. We've got a few forwards We who could be used to give us big lines in Hump and Garbo and Andrea and Joey. 

I don't think we'll know what we need till we hit stride with TJ back in the fold. I think this team can compete in the playoffs, with anyone in the East (yes, even Boston and Detroit), when we're playing at full strength. We have a lot of room to improve internally THIS SEASON. 

We need to rebound and we need to attack. We need to get tougher. It's going to come down to experience and coming together as a team under Sam Mitchell. 

I'd like to see a power 3 and a power center added but probably developmental prospects.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

BEEZ said:


> lol @ born in the 70's. They were born in 79. They are 28 years old, I didnt realize that was old.


I never said they were Hedo and Lewis were old, just older then our core. In three years when our guys are at their peak, Lewis and Hedo will be 31-32 and a small injury at that age can take longer to come back from....not to mention that it is harder for a wing player to stay at the top of their game then it is for a banger. 

It was just to point out that were are in good shape going forward.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

i fully believe toronto needs a sam dalembert or a sean williams... top notch shotblocker, with good defensive mindset & a strong finisher at the rim,.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

southeasy said:


> i fully believe toronto needs a sam dalembert or a sean williams... top notch shotblocker, with good defensive mindset & a strong finisher at the rim,.


Sure.....off the bench!


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

So, the Raptors should just go get a real, honest-to-goodness 5, eh? Hold on while Colangelo goes to Centres R Us and gets on. Oh, wait. The reason Toronto doesn't have a real, honest-to-goodness 5 (aside from Nesterovic, whose only flaw is that he's way too slow and slightly less athletic than Dalembaert) is twofold: (1) the traditional half-court set is meant to be a fallback option in their offense (they focus on pick-and-rolls/pick-and-pops); and (2) true, honest-to-goodness centers are hard to find and harder to trade for (unless your team is run by idiots like Chris Wallace or Jim Paxson). Toronto has a 5: his name is Rasho Nesterovic. And the only way the Raps are going to get another 5 is through the draft. If everyone's this hot for a 5, they should campaign Colangelo to trade up in the draft to get Roy Hibbert, who's a true, honest-to-goodness 5 and will be ready to take over Nesterovic's spot in 2 years when the latter's contract runs out.

So there you have it: Chandler, Dalembaert, etc. are unavailable and not coming to Toronto anytime soon. Roy Hibbert, though, could, with the right moves, be wearing number 55 for the Raptors next year and cleansing the number of its horrible Araujo karma.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

We need a scorer on the wing plain and simple. If that player can also be a defensive beast that can rebound and play tough, than awesome. If not we need one of those guys at the other wing position (I'm thinking slasher at the 2, brute player at the 3).. 

We need Bargnani to develop so we can either trade one of him or Bosh (this is if the Bosh-Bargnani experiment at the 4-5 fails)

Now, we can acquire these things through trade (like I said hoping Bargnani develops, see what happens there.. waiting for TJ to get healthy so we can trade him) or we have to hit a gem in the mid-late draft.

I like our situation in '09 though. Not so much the offseason, because I believe we won't have as much cap as many think with the resigning of certain players.. But the fact that we will have so many expiring contracts that we can flip to teams that want capspace, or to rebuild or both.


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

bigbabyjesus said:


> We need Bargnani to develop *so we can either trade* one of him or *Bosh* (this is if the Bosh-Bargnani experiment at the 4-5 fails)


That's the stupidest ****ing thing I've read in the last month. Bosh will never, ever be traded unless he morphs into Wince ****ing Carter v2.0. Bosh *is* the Raptors.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

Maggette would look nice playing w/ the current toronto team..

Not that i really like him as a player, but he can beast all by himself.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

We have a scorer at the 3, he's name is Kapono


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

kapono is a shooter, not a scorer, juan dixon is more of a scorer then kapono.. we need someone to body people & get to the line from inside out, not outside in.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

We definately need a scorer from the wings, if NJ has a firesale maybe we can get RJ. We need somone who can create their own shot, and attack the rim. We have our PG, we have our big in Bosh, we need a superior guy on the wings.


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## RX (May 24, 2006)

osman said:


> We definately need a scorer from the wings, if NJ has a firesale maybe we can *get RJ*. We need somone who can create their own shot, and attack the rim. We have our PG, we have our big in Bosh, we need a superior guy on the wings.


RJ will never ever play for the Raps...and as a Raps fan I am disgusted by suggestion


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

you gotta look at the young guys comin in. thornton would obviously be nice. jeff green is in the mold. we can't trade for either, really, but those are the types BC has to look for. we'll make a consolidation trade down the road but i'm more interested in the younguns.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

bigbabyjesus said:


> We need a scorer on the wing plain and simple. If that player can also be a defensive beast that can rebound and play tough, than awesome. If not we need one of those guys at the other wing position (I'm thinking slasher at the 2, brute player at the 3)..


I'm with you on this one. We don't need an allstar, just someone who is more than a jump shooter at these 2 positions.

We can also use a wide body guy like a Craig Smith/Glen Davis/Paul Milisap guy off the bench. Humphries is decent, but he doesn't take up sufficient space down low.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

RX said:


> RJ will never ever play for the Raps...and as a Raps fan I am disgusted by suggestion


Why would he not play here? If he was traded here he would play here. Unless he specifically states he doesn't want to come here. He would be a great at SF for us, hes only 27.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

if we want a jeff green-al thornton type, there are alot of prospects in the upcoming draft that will be around at our draft position... also some really great athletic PF's/C's with great shotblocking skills & defensive mindsets.

Jason Thompson of Rider IMO, brings both of those worlds... has SF/PF ability, great passer, great shotblocker, hardworker, hustler.. he's like a mixture of rookies jeff green, thornton & sean williams @ 6'10"


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

southeasy said:


> if we want a jeff green-al thornton type, there are alot of prospects in the upcoming draft that will be around at our draft position... also some really great athletic PF's/C's with great shotblocking skills & defensive mindsets.
> 
> Jason Thompson of Rider IMO, brings both of those worlds... has SF/PF ability, great passer, great shotblocker, hardworker, hustler.. he's like a mixture of rookies jeff green, thornton & sean williams @ 6'10"


I would like that to be true, but I can't remember the last time we drafted someone in the mid-late first round that turned out to be half decent other than Mo Pete. I'm not saying there isn't someone there to be had. Guys like Josh Smith, Granger, Prince etc. Have been available. I just don't like our odds.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

we haven't had any of those draft picks in the BC era so there's no reason to be pessimistic. plus we were always drafting from a position of dire need, which will not be the case, a relieving luxury.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

yeah, theres no pressure this upcoming draft, just filling the holes, hopefully with a young, energetic combo wing/forward.. i see alot of great prospects & i agree wit skywalker, BC is going to do big things with his 2nd draft pick as toronto GM

hell there might even be option to trade up for somebody like hibbert or thabeet, if that is what BC wants.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

might not need to trade up for Thabeet. 

BC is still asset collecting and I'm sure he wants to make the Raps more athletic.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

We have Moon, Kapono and somewhat Fino for the 3. IF we get that "scorer" you guys are talkin about one of them has to get cut. Unless you want to get a 2 that can be a scorer then we would have to cut either AP or Fino.

Personally, I think that we are set at the 2 and 3. It will be hard to get an upgrade that can both score and defend. Moon will improve and so will Kapono.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Dee-Zy said:


> We have Moon, Kapono and somewhat Fino for the 3. IF we get that "scorer" you guys are talkin about one of them has to get cut. Unless you want to get a 2 that can be a scorer then we would have to cut either AP or Fino.
> 
> Personally, I think that we are set at the 2 and 3. It will be hard to get an upgrade that can both score and defend. Moon will improve and so will Kapono.


how on earth are we set the 2 and 3? we are stacked with completely average players at those positions.

look around the league. every single elite team, even most decent-good teams have a game changer or a star level player at the 2-3.. we don't.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

Dee-Zy said:


> We have Moon, Kapono and somewhat Fino for the 3. IF we get that "scorer" you guys are talkin about one of them has to get cut. Unless you want to get a 2 that can be a scorer then we would have to cut either AP or Fino.
> 
> Personally, I think that we are set at the 2 and 3. It will be hard to get an upgrade that can both score and defend. Moon will improve and so will Kapono.


Lets see some of the other SG/SG pairings in the east:

Pierce and Allen
Dunleavy and Granger
Carter and Jefferson
Johnson and Smith
Wade and Marion
Butler and Stevenson
Richardson and Wallace
Lebron and whoever
Hamilton and Prince

I think we could stand to improve, I don't think Moon/Parker are a long term solution. Kapono should be coming of the bench anyways.

Delfino is the only one who I would like to keep.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

How many non All-Star SG would you put ahead of AP? How many non-AS SF would you put ahead of Moon? Remember that he is a rookie and will improve.

I don't think AP is any worst than Manu.
As much as Bowen is a much better defender, I wouldn't necessarily put him miles ahead of Moon. 

Those players worked nicely in a system why can't AP and Moon work well in another?

If Anything, I think the difference is that Bosh isn't as good as TD.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

osman said:


> Lets see some of the other SG/SG pairings in the east:
> 
> Pierce and Allen
> Dunleavy and Granger
> ...



That is slightly near sighted as for most of those teams, one or both of them are the best or second best players of that team. ie: Nets, Hawks, Cavs, Miami, Cats, Wizard, Celts, who cares about Pacers.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

Dee-Zy said:


> That is slightly near sighted as for most of those teams, one or both of them are the best or second best players of that team. ie: Nets, Hawks, Cavs, Miami, Cats, Wizard, Celts, who cares about Pacers.



Not necessarily

Nets = Kidd
Boston = Garnett
Washington = Arenas when healthy
Detriot = Billups, or Wallace
Indian = O'neal when healthy


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## RX (May 24, 2006)

osman said:


> Why would he not play here? If he was traded here he would play here. Unless he specifically states he doesn't want to come here. He would be a great at SF for us, hes only 27.


I guess you didn't see the playoffs last year, when RJ took shots at the Toronto Fans

Sorry, RJ is a decent player but...as a true fan I cannot accept someone who flat out disrespected our team, city, and fanbase numerous times...

I live in New York City (originaly frohm Toronto) and RJ is as classless as it gets...utter garbage

BTW i have had the MISFORTUNE of seeing every Nets game the past few years..and Kidd IS OVERRATED...the reason the Nets win is if Carter does good...he is their best player by FAR...Kidd's triple doubles are meaningless...he is a good fast break passer and big guard defender but that is it...every team sags off him and doesn't respect his shot(rightfully so)...the halfcourt offense for the Nets is run thru Carter


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Dee-Zy said:


> How many non All-Star SG would you put ahead of AP? How many non-AS SF would you put ahead of Moon? Remember that he is a rookie and will improve.
> 
> I don't think AP is any worst than Manu.
> As much as Bowen is a much better defender, I wouldn't necessarily put him miles ahead of Moon.


..............

i highly suggest you see a therapist

how many all-star sg would you put ahead of parker?

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaahhahaah

moon? are you ****ing kidding me? not to be negative but this guy is a 27 year old rookie who is an ABSOLUTE offensive liability, with complete average if not worse perimter defensive ability.



> Those players worked nicely in a system why can't AP and Moon work well in another?
> 
> If Anything, I think the difference is that Bosh isn't as good as TD.


lol.
we dont have anyone in the stratosphere of manu, and the closest guy we have to bowen is delfino, but still although he might be a better an all around player he is not the same lockdown player. BUT, i still see delfino as a role player in the future for us, i love him, he is the jackknife of a player, he brings everything from rebounding to passing.. but we still need a slasher and a brute wing beside him ..


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

RX said:


> I guess you didn't see the playoffs last year, when RJ took shots at the Toronto Fans
> 
> Sorry, RJ is a decent player but...as a true fan I cannot accept someone who flat out disrespected our team, city, and fanbase numerous times...


ummm.. he said " im glad the toronto fans wore red to support us today" or something along those lines

*get realll*

rj would be a huge asset if we could somehow acquire him. he would be a perfect fit alongside bosh.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

osman said:


> Not necessarily
> 
> Nets = Kidd
> Boston = Garnett
> ...



Jesus would you just read? I said best or SECOND BEST.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

bigbabyjesus said:


> ..............
> 
> i highly suggest you see a therapist
> 
> ...



NON ****ING ALL STAR!!!!!!!!! one more time for you NON All-Star.


I highly suggest you see a pre-school teacher.

Apparently having the best shooter in the NBA is not good enough or not a decent "Role player" huh?

TO fans are spoiled.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

don't get me wrong, I love AP. I'm just saying that we don't have any SG that can slash inside. Even if you have Ray Allen/Michael Redd/Rip Hamilton all on the same team, you still need someone that is more than a jump shooter on your team.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

Dee-Zy said:


> NON ****ING ALL STAR!!!!!!!!! one more time for you NON All-Star.
> 
> 
> I highly suggest you see a pre-school teacher.
> ...



lol so you want to compare Parker and Moon to non all stars? Thats fine, but should they not be compared to other starters in the league at those positions? Not a bunch of scrubs, yes I know I would rather have Parker over Matt Carroll....


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Dee-Zy said:


> I don't think AP is any worst than Manu.
> As much as Bowen is a much better defender, I wouldn't necessarily put him miles ahead of Moon.


:rofl:


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Dee-Zy said:


> Jesus would you just read? I said best or SECOND BEST.


there's a reason for that. but i guess if we were to make Parker our second option, he would look just as good as, for argument's sake, Rip Hamilton?


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

people, he said parker was as good as manu

lets just let that sink in for a minute.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahaha i cant get over that


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

trick said:


> there's a reason for that. but i guess if we were to make Parker our second option, he would look just as good as, for argument's sake, Rip Hamilton?


Calderon and Bosh are our 2 best players, of course we wont be as good at the 2 and 3.

Bowen is a good defender and he can shoot the 3 that's all he can do. For crying out loud, STEVE NASH IS DEFENDING HIM.

Manu is obviously better than AP but by how much?


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

Manu is the better slasher/scorer from that stand point..

AP does have him on shooting & possibly very well as defence.

it's not that much of an outlandish claim, HOWEVER, of course T.O. would love to have a guy with driving skill like Manu, it would greatly help our team.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

osman said:


> lol so you want to compare Parker and Moon to non all stars? Thats fine, but should they not be compared to other starters in the league at those positions? Not a bunch of scrubs, yes I know I would rather have Parker over Matt Carroll....




Non All Stars does not equal scrubs.


http://www.basketballforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5278847

approximate depth chart

AP is better than 
the starters at the 2 for

Was
Uta
seattle
sacto?
NO
Minny
Mil, yes he is better than Redd dont get fooled by Redd's contract. AP is a better shooter than Redd and what the hell is Redd good for? Yes, shooting. The only thing Redd might be better for is he is more clutch but then again he is the 1rst option so that is not a good sample for comparison.
Memphis
LAC
Indy
GS?
Dallas
Cle


non all stars better than Parker
JJ, J-Rich, Manu (only 1 All Star Appearance), Gordon although that's arguable.

That's pretty ****ing decent, don't forget he is 4th in 3pt shooting in the ****ing league.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

southeasy said:


> Manu is the better slasher/scorer from that stand point..
> 
> AP does have him on shooting & possibly very well as defence.
> 
> it's not that much of an outlandish claim, HOWEVER, of course T.O. would love to have a guy with driving skill like Manu, it would greatly help our team.


Please guys...please let's just stop here before it gets any worse.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Dee-Zy said:


> Non All Stars does not equal scrubs.
> 
> 
> http://www.basketballforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5278847
> ...


whoops...too late.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

trick said:


> Please guys...please let's just stop here before it gets any worse.


you don't think parker is a better shooter & defender then ginobili?

you don't think he would help our team?

i'm not sure what your implying.

i didn't make any crazy claim, i'm sure most would actually agree with everything i said.

BTW, just incase nobody here is aware, Kapono & Parker are actually #1 & #2 respectively in NBA 3-Pt %... when is the last time that Ever happened.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

better shooter perhaps, but we are talking about overall here. AP is nice but he is at least a couple notches lower than where Manu is at.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Considering that we're a PG/Forward oriented team, we're pretty well set up at the 2/3.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

Dee-Zy said:


> Non All Stars does not equal scrubs.
> 
> 
> http://www.basketballforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5278847
> ...



GS? I would rather have Monta. I would take Redd as well. Sacto? Are you serious? Kevin Martin is far better than Parker.

I like Parker but we are not winning anything in the playoffs with him or Moon at SG/SG. We need to upgrade at least one of those positions, in order to become serious contendors. Parker is fine, I would rather upgrade Moon.

Look at most of the teams in the league that are serious contendors, they have at least three star type players.

Some examples: 
Bos - Allen, Peirce, Garnett 
SA - Parker, Manu, Duncan

Two of the best teams in the league, I am not going to go through the whole list. 

Obviously I don't expect us to easily obtain stars.
But in order to become serious contendors we need to upgrade at either SG or SF. That is all I'm saying.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

SkywalkerAC said:


> Considering that we're a PG/Forward oriented team, we're pretty well set up at the 2/3.


If we're pretty well set up at the 2/3 why is this team not winning alot more, why are be just above .500? We got dominated by Maggette, a guy who can attack the rim from the wings and get to the FT line. Thats something we need.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Dee-Zy said:


> How many non All-Star SG would you put ahead of AP? How many non-AS SF would you put ahead of Moon? Remember that he is a rookie and will improve.
> 
> *I don't think AP is any worst than Manu.
> As much as Bowen is a much better defender, I wouldn't necessarily put him miles ahead of Moon*.
> ...


wow..


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

i probably should have worded myself more clearly, not too mention i should have read the rest of the posts.

in no way was i implying AP is on Manu's level, i think that's completely insane to say. my only point was about the shooting, and defensive side of the ball. Both players are great, but i don't think anyone would rather have AP over Manu.

Manu provides something we don't have, which is a consistant slasher/finisher at the guard. Ginobili & Delfino would be damn great.. Gino's great acting skill & flops along with Delfs ability to take charges yet recieve no call would eventually help our team :biggrin:


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

hey the point is that we're far from poor at the wing. i don't think that fan would claim they're playing as well as they can either. AP has come on beautifully as the season has gone along, Moon's game is FAR from tapped out, Kapono has TJ back, Delfino is a thoroughbred guard and is how old? Joey a beast and can't get off the bench. Matched with elite point guard play, our 4-man wing rotation is deadly, the best we've had since T-mac, Vince, Christie and Del. 

the fact is we're already a very nicely composed team. as this team grows together, they're going to become great. we don't really NEED anything. much like we didn't last year, we don't even NEED a draft pick. usually i'm obsessed with the draft but any pick is going to struggle to find playing time. it's just another asset to be utilized. BC could/should look to trade. he could leave the player in Europe. he could take a flyer on a high potential kid (Batum might fit nicely). so many options.

what we really need is for Andrea to get better. and we're seeing tangible improvement game by game. the kid actually has pretty decent rebounding potential. 

and don't discount Jamario's ability to improve. he's already started to slash better, TJ and Jose will be looking for him above the rim, and a full nba offseason working on his jumpshot could take his overall game to the next level. that's scary. 

is our 4 man wing rotation champship caliber? is our center position championship caliber? not yet. however, our wingman rotation IS comparable to that of San Antonio (looking forward to them backing me up tomorrow night). Our center rotation IS comparable to San Antonio's. We just aren't as experienced. Are we on their level with TJ back in the lineup?

I guess we'll find out a little more of where we stand tomorrow night.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

the one wing player i see with us in the future is carlos delfino. dude is the human swiss army knife. he brings asbolutely everything to the table.

if he could mold himself into more of a slasher, i cant see why he wouldnt be our starting 2 guard in the future.

i believe we should trade moon while his value is high. i love kapono, but our team is full of great shooters, and he is a defensive liability, especially on the wing where there are so many great scorers.


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

Kapono shoots 50% from three point land. He's not going anywhere, defensive liability or not. Besides, proper rotations can help him out immensely.

I see no need to deal Moon at this point. He's got everything the other wings don't (except Delfino): great hops and a willingness to rebound.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

SkywalkerAC said:


> hey the point is that we're far from poor at the wing. i don't think that fan would claim they're playing as well as they can either. AP has come on beautifully as the season has gone along, Moon's game is FAR from tapped out, Kapono has TJ back, Delfino is a thoroughbred guard and is how old? Joey a beast and can't get off the bench. Matched with elite point guard play, our 4-man wing rotation is deadly, the best we've had since T-mac, Vince, Christie and Del.
> 
> the fact is we're already a very nicely composed team. as this team grows together, they're going to become great. we don't really NEED anything. much like we didn't last year, we don't even NEED a draft pick. usually i'm obsessed with the draft but any pick is going to struggle to find playing time. it's just another asset to be utilized. BC could/should look to trade. he could leave the player in Europe. he could take a flyer on a high potential kid (Batum might fit nicely). so many options.
> 
> ...



Our team has been together for 2 years, we're probably going to win less games this year than last year. I'm sure Bargs will improve, but Parker is over 30, and will be on the decline. How much more is Kapono going to improve? He's as good as he will be, the only one that will improve is Delfino.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

narrator said:


> Kapono shoots 50% from three point land. He's not going anywhere, defensive liability or not. Besides, proper rotations can help him out immensely.


Yeah your right. Great three point shooters are untouchable :|



> I see no need to deal Moon at this point. He's got everything the other wings don't (except Delfino): great hops and a willingness to rebound.


He also possess' no offensive skill. 

Trade him while his value is high.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Delfino and Moon. There are your starters for the future. Defense, scoring, rebounding. Solid and even spectacular.

Trade Moon? For what? An athletic small forward?


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

SkywalkerAC said:


> Delfino and Moon. There are your starters for the future. Defense, scoring, rebounding. Solid and *even spectacular.*


:laugh:



> Trade Moon? For what? An athletic small forward?


For someone who can slash, play defense, and isn't afraid of contact like Moon?

I always respect your opinion Skywalker, but man your homerism is coming out hard right now


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

There probably is along one reason why i would keep a rotation of wings players who aren't a consistent scoring threat like some of the others mentioned (Rip, Redd, Ginobili, etc.) is in case Bargs turns into a potent second scoring option alongside Bosh. In which we won't need someone on the wing to score 20'ish ppg to keep the pressure off of Bosh and that a Bosh/Bargnani scoring duo will provide tons of opportunities for standstill shooters like Parker and Kapaono. Plus, with Bosh and Bargnani we could hide the weakness of an offensive liability in Moon provided that he provides above-adequate defense.So if you were to ask me would i trade for an all-star like wing at this point? It depends on who we're giving up. But I'm confident enough in Bargnani that we won't need someone like that on perimeter. 

However, this doesn't hide the fact that our startings fall pale in comparison to the rest of the league's starting wings. I don't care how you cut it, I would rather have a Jason Richardson/Gerald Wallace tandem rather than a Parker/Moon tandem, simply because the former is so much more better than the latter. And Kevin Martin is so much better than Parker, while Bowen is so much more better than Moon...well you get my drift.

I just draw the line where objectivism ends and homerism begins. Parker being a better shooter/defender than Ginobili (which I would strongly debate both) does not hide the fact that Ginobili is light years ahead of Parker, regardless if Parker is the better shooter and/or defender. Ginobili brings so much more to his team than Parker does. Moon being a rookie and still able to improve does not give reason to hope that he can be better, or at the same level, than Gerald Wallace. What has Moon shown thus far into the season that he can drastically improve his offensive woes? Defensively he is not that good considering how some are claiming he is. I would argue that Parker is better defensively than Moon.

P.S.: We could use somewhat of a spark off the bench in the future. A volume-scorerlike Dixon who can score buckets at a more efficient rate (Travis Outlaw comes to mind :biggrin: ).


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

bigbabyjesus said:


> I always respect your opinion Skywalker, but man your homerism is coming out hard right now


Do you want me to pass the salt?


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

bigbabyjesus said:


> :laugh:
> 
> 
> For someone who can slash, play defense, and isn't afraid of contact like Moon?
> ...


Moon and Delfino don't make spectacular plays? 

I've been waiting years for a player like Moon. Length, athleticism, shotblocking, rebounding, and finishing ability.

He should try to get a little stronger and needs to work on his jumper but he competes pretty well against the best in the league, night after night. We don't need him to be a scorer.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

i just say it how it is, parker is the better shooter, he has the better fg%, the #2 3-point shooter in the nba, similar freethrow %, i wasn't aware ginobili guarded the opposing teams best offensive player everynight, however i'm well aware that gino is superior overall & on many levels, including his driving & slashing ability, he plays with no fear, can finish at the rim & is the superior passer, i don't believe any of those statements to be objective or homeristic.

as for trading Jamario Moon, the rookie that made the team out of a FA camp, coming in with zero nba experience, whom is also signed through next season for less then a mill... he has better shot blocking instincts then chris bosh, you could argue he is the 2nd-3rd best rebounder on the team outside of rasho/bosh, where he competes w/ delfino. he takes everything with stride & actually listens to coach, does not get down on himself, can fill the stat sheet in 5-categories & actually wants to keep improving.. i would definitely not argue anthony parker is the better defender, i doubt any toronto fan would... Of course we do not have some of best guard/forward combos in the league, we are starting a euroleauge mvp & a globetrotting(literally) rookie.... our best players, our star players, they do not play those positions... you can't have league best players at every position.

you lose some, you win some. Bruce Bowen cannot even see Jamario Moon's rebounding & shotblocking ability but he's a how many time all-nba defender? some of you guys with your comparisons are unfair. We have great players, we do not need to be trading these said players when we are just now finally all starting to click as a unit.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

SkywalkerAC said:


> Considering that we're a PG/Forward oriented team, we're pretty well set up at the 2/3.



That is exactly my point as much as our 2/3 tandem is inferior to some, they are still DECENT. Read middle of the pack.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

The Spurs are the team we're most comparable to, in terms of composition. both are PG/Forward teams with a solid wing rotation that makes heady plays and shots.

Finley/Bowen/Ginobili/Barry
vs
AP/Moon/Delfino/Kapono

I'm not going to say one is better than the other (though the Spurs obviously have a ton more experience). I just want to outline the similarity in our composition on the wing. We've got one defender, one veteran shotmaker, one Argentinian creator/well-rounded player, and one 3-point specialist. 

Eventually I could see BC bringing in another star, not because we have to but because we will have the assets to do so. Just don't fool yourself and assume that such a player will automatically make our wing rotation that much better. I know Cory Maggette just lit us up and brings some nice attributes to the fore but he'd be just another cog in the wheel of our system, putting up big numbers one night and letting others do so the next, and getting paid huge dollars to do so.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

You can't compare us to the Spurs right now due to the facts that:

1. Tim Duncan is one of if not the best defensive anchor in the league. Put him on any team and they instantly become SO much better defensively. 

2. We don't have anyone on the wing in the same universe in comparison to Ginobili.

3. Though Delfino and Parker are fine defenders, those two as well as Moon and Kapono do not even compare to the rotation of Ginobili, Bowen, Udoka, and Finley defensively.

I do see where your coming from. But as far as comparing these two teams.. It's hard to do because one is elite defensively, and one definetly is not even close.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

of course we lack the spurs experience & defensive stance.

we are a much younger team, a relatively new team in regards to the influx of players in the past two years.

i like the comparison as far as team philosophy & stratagy.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

bigbabyjesus said:


> You can't compare us to the Spurs right now due to the facts that:
> 
> 1. Tim Duncan is one of if not the best defensive anchor in the league. Put him on any team and they instantly become SO much better defensively.
> 
> ...


and that's why we need to continue adding tough, athletic, defensive minded players, IMO. though our defense is improved this season, it's hard when you've got Bosh and AB anchoring your defense. As good as Andrea's defense is for a second year big man, he has to get a LOT better. 

the point is that it's not about having stars at every position, it's about playing great team defense and hitting shots. hey, we're not there yet. i know that. we're a lot better off than plenty of teams out there though, even ones that have a star player on the wing.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

SkywalkerAC said:


> and that's why we need to continue adding tough, athletic, defensive minded players, IMO. though our defense is improved this season, it's hard when you've got Bosh and AB anchoring your defense. As good as Andrea's defense is for a second year big man, he has to get a LOT better.


I agree. 

Bosh must get a lot better as well. At this point I'd say Bargnani is a better man defender, although Bosh is a much better help/team defender.



> the point is that it's not about having stars at every position, it's about playing great team defense and hitting shots.


Agree 100%.. Spurs are actually a great example of that.



> hey, we're not there yet. i know that. we're a lot better off than plenty of teams out there though, even ones that have a star player on the wing.


No doubt. 

We have a lot of building to do still. 

Sure, _some_ of it will come internally. 

But it's really hard to find an ELITE team, and I don't use that term lightly.. whose two best players are as bad defensively as ours are (Bosh and Calderon)


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

which is exactly why you'd probably not want to trade away a player with Jamario Moon's defensive potential. when Bruce Bowen was 28 years old, he was also an nba rookie and shot only 40% from the floor. the next he shot 29%.

Carlos turned 25 last summer. Manu turned 25 the summer before his rookie season in 2002; he averaged 7.6 ppg over 69 games.

and Bosh and Calderon are going to be perfectly fine defender through their prime years. they need to be in the right system, most definitely, where again the Raps have a few more steps to take. 

Manu is one of the best players in the world. his ball skills are incredible. We all know we're a little lacking in this regard but, as I see Carlos cross over to his left and stretch out for the layup, we've got some upside here too. we've got upside as a slashing team. we even have upside when it comes to shooting - Delf and Moon are only just finding their jumpers! 

Kapono is going to be a gritty shooter for the next half decade. He's one of the best shooters EVER! You've got to keep this guy around and see if it can pay off huge in the playoffs. 

Give em some time, that's all I'm asking.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

again we get torched by an opposing shooting guard while ours don't really answer back. but we came back against one of the best teams in the league...

our perimeter defense does need to get better. maybe TJ can help in this regard, maybe delfino should start, i don't know.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

bigbabyjesus said:


> I agree.
> 
> Bosh must get a lot better as well. At this point I'd say Bargnani is a better man defender, although Bosh is a much better help/team defender.
> 
> ...




Maybe it is just me, but I don't think that Jose is a bad defender. He gets down in a stance and keeps his man in front of him. He has decent size as well. He may not gamble and fly around getting steals, but he does what he needs to do. He would also be much better if he a had a decent shot blocker behind him.....and Bosh or Bargs are not going to be that guy!


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

I concur ^ Jose is not a bad defender anymore, he is decent. Bosh on the other hand is.

and TJ? Defense? Are you kidding me? HE is horrible, he gets lost all the time on picks. He always ****s up the rotation and that's how a man often gets open. He always gambles way too much. It isn't because he gets more steals that he is a better defender. Watching him on Defense is very frustrating.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i think this thread is key right now. what do we need? we need to... answer that question. this season has, for me, probably been the most frustrating of the 13. and not just by a smidgen, but by a _lot_.

i like being competitive. i like having a team that is almost assured of qualifying for the postseason for the next 5-7 years. don't get me wrong. but if we plateau here, that will be a massive disappointment. i'm still wondering how the team, considering its youth, can possibly be anywhere near content with this season- in many ways a replica of last. imo, we're not being as patient as we want to believe- rather, we're simply failing to improve very much. there's a difference.

now, what do we need? don't know. but i want to shelve the excuses for underachievement as soon as possible. i'm not saying that with an emotional breath either. i'm just stating it as fact. excuses do not befit champions. the sooner we look in the mirror and acknowledge that we need to (and can) get better _*now*_, the sooner we can give improvement a chance.

peace


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Call me crazy but I would be content reaching the plateau of the Suns and Mavs, they are consistently at the top of the league even if they don't win a title. If we could be a team like Mavs or Suns for 5 seasons, I would be happy. I would be content in being an elite team and being respected around the league. Think Pistons minus the championship.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Dee-Zy said:


> Call me crazy but I would be content reaching the plateau of the Suns and Mavs, they are consistently at the top of the league even if they don't win a title. If we could be a team like Mavs or Suns for 5 seasons, I would be happy. I would be content in being an elite team and being respected around the league. Think Pistons minus the championship.


That is a nice start....but I want a championship baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:yay::yay::clap::clap::yay::yay::clap::clap::yay::yay::clap::clap::yay::yay::clap2::clap2::yay::yay::clap2::clap2::yay::yay::clap2::clap2::yay::yay::clap2::clap2:


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

hey, getting to the top level without a title is absolutely fine with me too.  to be sure, not everyone can win a championship. not every great team can win a championship. to wit, there are so many teams in the league now... and still only one title. let's for a moment assume there are 10 with title aspirations today and a basketball generation lasts for about 5-7 years. right there you get at least three teams that won't win the big salami (& cheese). and that's an "at least" that assumes none of the ones who do can manage to win more than one. that sort of even distribution at the top is not common.

i can live with not finishing the job. we could have the most talent in the nba, still not finish the job and i could find a way to live with it. no problem. it's not easy to win a title in the age of overexpansion. but sitting in mediocrity and talking about "how great we can be" can only last for so long before the results begin to speak for themselves.

now is the time where you ascend to that level, imo. you don't wait for it like the raps are wont to do; you *go* there. a basketball generation is short enough. mediocre teams wait, plateau and talk; champions go, go and go. this is where true leadership comes in. do we have it? i don't know. but i can't say i've seen many signs of it... yet.

you could call me a pessimist but i don't think i've ever been one. neither have i been an optimist. quite frankly, i think it's a waste of time to be either. but i can't justify watching this team through rose-coloured glasses anymore. the results are starting to speak for themselves. the time is now. 

peace


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

i'm wondering why people think Bosh is a bad defender? is he really?... he defended KG the best you possibly could in our games vs. Boston this season... 

he is an amazing weakside shotblocker & help defender.. what is his downfall according to the people saying Bosh is a bad defender?

the only knock on Bosh i've ever agreed with was that he sometimes is too shot happy & non-chalent out there on offense.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Because PF and opponent teams score at will against us in the paint. We were talking about how we need toughness, we got Rasho and how did that change? on the Defensive end - not much. I think it is time to blame the face of the franchise, we brought in help he needs to improve. We have rebounding and athleticism at the 3, we brought in a big man that can grind in and out, a "bruiser", still nothing.


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## Benninsanity (Nov 28, 2006)

We are going nowhere with Chris Bosh as our main guy lets face it. He lacks of post moves and he's too soft. I had prove he can't score against the elite big men of the league.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Yeah, Bosh needs to play better but his defensive deficiencies as way overblown - it's perimeter defense that has been our bane of late. When's the last time a power player really went off on us? And no post moves? Give me a break. He's doubled almost every time he gets the ball on the block because he will score on single coverage every time.

Bosh is not as easy to build around as Tim Duncan. I think we know that. He's not on that level defensively. Deal with it. There's only a couple of power forwards in the world that are better than our guy. He's not mailing it in. He's working to become a better leader and win games. 

It's Andrea that needs to get better and he is. Andrea's the guy that needs to get our defensive scheme down pat. Andrea is the guy that needs to become a force in the paint on both ends and rebounding. Andrea is where our championship potential lies. He's not going to get there this year. 

So what we need, I'm afraid, is more time.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

Benninsanity said:


> We are going nowhere with Chris Bosh as our main guy lets face it. He lacks of post moves and he's too soft. I had prove he can't score against the elite big men of the league.


so your a toronto fan and you were knocking bosh on the general board!?
thats insane, do you watch our team??? No post moves for Bosh?!? he is not soft, he's played most of the season injured and was hurt early lastnight & still helped us get back into the game in the 4th Q against the defending champs.

it was Bosh going insane in the huddle that sparked the comeback our team had, we narrowly lost lastnight.

if there is one word you cannot use to describe bosh it's soft, that **** falls on def ears with me. the kid is amazing leader by example, and his teammates know it, so they have his back 100%

our problem is not interior defence (outside of rebounding) so much that it is letting perimeter players have free lanes to attack our bigs @ the rim. which in turn makes our guards give them too much space respecting the drive & we get burnt, things bosh should not have to worry about while defending his own man is having guards flying at his head.

you saw it with iguodala, maggette & ginobili in just the past couple games just to name a few.

Bosh has some of the best footwork & post moves in the league & is still improving, that is clearly the reason he is always doubled, which half the time he splits the defence for a score.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

If you guys think Jose and Bosh are good defensively, then man.. I REALLY question your basketball knowledge..

Bosh is average at best. Man to man he has gotten better over the years, but he still has a lot of work to do. He does a bad job on switches a lot of the time, and forgets to box out a lot of the time to.. 

Jose isn't close to TJ defensively. TJ may have the size advantage but he's not afraid to get up on players and bother them, while using his quickness nicely if they try to blow by him. Jose on the other hand, gets blown by several times a game. It's not that he's not trying, but he seems a step slow a lot of the time, and he's probably our worst player for getting caught on switches and leaving his man open for the shot. I know he will work on his defense in the offseason, because other than that.. theres not really any weaknesses to his game.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Defending NBA players is as tough as it gets. There's only so much you can do. I don't think that Sam is overly concerned with Bosh and the gang's defense. They got lit up by Manu in legendary Manu fashion (the MJ of Argentina) but they made some stops down the stretch and got back in the game. There were some lapses but for the most part Jose and Bosh did their jobs. They'll have some video to watch, no doubt, but they both defend like pros. They can get better, they've got a ways to go before they're savvy veteran defenders, but they compete and know their stuff.

Is the defensive potential there? Both were coming up with huge steals against the Spurs. I think there is. That's probably what is starting to set people off though. VC had defensive potential too, unrealized. They've both got great length, and quickness. They both have to get a little stronger but they've still got plenty of time in their careers to develop old man strength. They've left more little more to be desired thus far, 2007-2008 but hey, there are plenty of games to be played before the playoffs. 

Physical strength is one area we are surely lacking in. The NBA is full of beasts and if you don't have freaks on your team, you'll pay the price. We've got plenty of manpower but our main guns need to hit the stacks with Joey and get in the best shape of their lives to give us that edge. 

Andrea is number 1 - I know he already big and strong but he's got myriad of ways to take his body to the next level. He needs a lot of core work and a lot of shoulder strengthening. He'll be busy with team Italy but that's as good a training environment as you can really ask for. In my opinion, his strength training is as important to the franchise as our upcoming draft...and I LOVE the draft. Bargnani could become a real beast and that's what we really need.

Moon is number 2 - and thankfully he's heading into a contract year. he's probably going to work primarily on his jumper but it would be nice for him to come back ready to meet and dole out a little more physical punishment. You know Pipp hit the gym.

Bosh is number 3 - he's put plenty of work into his physique but he's going to have to continue to work at it. he'll be with team USA, working out with the best of the best. hopefully the dream team kicks his stability and defense to another level.

TJ is number 4 - he's not giving up anytime soon. dude's going to be putting in a lot of work in the summer.

Calderon is number 5 - I can't see this guy lifting a weight. yoga maybe? anyways, he'll be playing ball with one of the best teams in the world, and what better way for a point guard to get tougher?

These guys will be able to get it done in the playoffs, if they click and catch fire. Their defense will be passable but at the end of the day this team needs to hit shots. If they burn out in the first round, they start prepping for the big push - 2008/2009. The most important year we've had to date.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

we could of used a big body like Sheldon, I hope after the break BC can find a decent low key name big man that can well in a up tempo offense


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## laydee-bawla22 (Jul 15, 2003)

Sean Williams is what we need.

a bad *** who wont take ****


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

BC should take a long look at Chris Anderson when he's reinstated. Seriously.

Shotblocking, length, athleticism, energy. He'll be cheap and he'll work his *** off to redeem his career.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

What the Raps need is that perfect blend of experience of experience complemented by upside. 

I do think our guys are going to get better. It's going to be difficult for Chris to get much better than he already is (and we're all a little concerned about his knees) but he's still SO young, we forget that sometimes.  One area I do expect him to continue improving is his passing, an underrated facet of his development.

Andrea, on the other hand, is playing so far below his potential it's mind-bottling. He's only just finding his endurance (he played 47 minutes ok) and his physical strength/balance and his shot hasn't caught up yet. His help defense is going to get better and better with experience. He's not a stupid guy; he was made to be a basketball player, he just needs to figure it out. He is going to get better at rebounding - he was one of the worst rebounders (ever) to start the season but he's actually able to snatch some balls now. He is also going to become a very good big man play-maker. 

We also forget that this is Carlos' breakout season and that Moon is a rookie. The upside isn't overwhelming but remember that we basically got them both for free. These guys have the potential to be fantastic roleplayers for us - some of the best we've had. 

Same goes for TJ and Jose. They need a shot to...get better.

We also need to add some experienced talent through trade. Obviously our bench talent needs to be consolidated.

And then we need to add upside, and plenty of it, through the draft and through trade. Most of all I want a combo forward that can play both with Moon and Delf and co on the wings and complement Bosh and Bargnani with power and force.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Sounds like you want Marion!


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

i do. though he doesn't have the demeanor i'd look for. 

al thornton would do.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

two experiments that are not working with our current lineup:

1) two pg's. we can't afford to sit one while the other plays if our other options are so limited. we may have to sacrifice our depth at this position in order to improve another... unless we can figure out a way to play them together. that shouldn't be as complicated as we've made it seem but these two look worse every game. like they're not learning anything together. microcosm for the entire team, imo.

2) bargnani and bosh down low. i emphasize "with our current lineup" when i say this. if we're going to be consistently successful with the perimeter men we currently have, we probably need a playmaker/eraser down low. bosh is not him. bargnani is. just kidding. the point is that this team is probably not that bad inside on defense, it's just that they can't hold the fort when our guards get exposed so often (pretty much every set). the solution here is as simple but for some reason impossible, to me, as jose and tj together: andrea on the three. wouldn't necessarily need a new 5 either- just use rasho. none of those guys are playmakers either but something tells me that: a) three 7ft'ers are inherently tough to score on; b) bargnani is a natural three, anyway. instead of forcing him to learn how to defend the paint and swat flies, perhaps it'd be easier for him to learn how to guard players who have a tremendous lateral quicks advantage.

we don't have to address both issues, maybe solving one would be enough. but that'd be a crazy starting lineup that i wouldn't mind seeing, if only to witness change for the sake of change:

jose
tj
bargnani
bosh
rasho

be entertaining to see it play out. and if it doesn't work, i think we need to move a point and/or get a big- but if we get a big, where does that leave b&b? maybe we'd be looking at three 7ft'ers regardless, which is the path i think we've always been on.

peace


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## george (Aug 8, 2003)

Trade TJ for Cory Maggette!!! Clips need a PG, Livingston might never make it back.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Why would they trade for TJ when they have Dan Dickau?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

bigbabyjesus said:


> Why would they trade for TJ when they have Dan Dickau?


why should we trade for Maggette when we have Joey Graham?


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

exactly


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

we need kwame brown man that guy is good.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

Coax a deal out of Portland for Rudy. 

Lamond Murray strikes again...


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Fernandez would be nice.

Murray?


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Right, we could have drafted him last year if we had our pick.


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## george (Aug 8, 2003)

Either way who knows what we'll get in the off season. We don't have cap room, and after TJ's injury, not sure what his trade value really is. Although we do have close to 17million in expiring contracts next year with Parker, Garbo, and Rasho, maybe that can yield something.


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## Balzac (Jun 29, 2006)

TJ Ford will yield very little value, unfortunately. Jose Calderon is untradable at this point becaused we NEED him. Thus, we're in a tough position at PG.

For next season: Rasho will definitely exercise his option at 8.5 mil. Parker should be resigned after the 09 season. But he's getting kinna old, so who knows? Garbo I think we can sign for cheap, IF we still want him by that time. We're most likely going to trade one of these three expiring contracts next season. We do have Humphries, Brezec, Martin, Moon, Calderon expiring this off season. Martin is gone for sure (I hope). Moon will get resigned. Humphries should earn a contract. But I don't think BC is satisfied with the bench at all. We'll see some moves, IMO.


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

if i remember correctly.. Hump is already locked up for another 3years =)


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## Balzac (Jun 29, 2006)

You are correct. My bad.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

We could use the full MLE to sign a player, in addition to signing our own (with their bird rights), correct?


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## george (Aug 8, 2003)

SkywalkerAC said:


> We could use the full MLE to sign a player, in addition to signing our own (with their bird rights), correct?


yea, not sure who we can sign. Hope we don't waste like last year, Kapono isn't getting much burn.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

we need a established vet back up PF, a grant hill type of a SF would be nice, kinda feel Kapono was a waste just a spot up shooter who is not much of a slashing SF.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

step 1. Fire Sam Mitchell

step 2. Hire Jeff Van Gundy


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

NeoSamurai said:


> Coax a deal out of Portland for Rudy.


Sure. Would love to have Calderon on the Blazers


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

andalusian said:


> Sure. Would love to have Calderon on the Blazers


Blazers have the pieces to get that sign and trade done, if they really wanted it.


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## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

What we need is a star-caliber player from a team that is not doing too well this season. I wonder if Luol Deng is available via sign and trade? Chicago had said it was looking into a major change this offseason. We have the ending contracts and young talent to get a star. If not, we should try to look into acquiring Okafor (also via sign and trade).


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

SkywalkerAC said:


> Blazers have the pieces to get that sign and trade done, if they really wanted it.


So something like Rights to Rudy, a bad contract and a lesser young player? 

I could see Portland doing this.

I just doubt Toronto does.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

andalusian said:


> So something like Rights to Rudy, a bad contract and a lesser young player?
> 
> I could see Portland doing this.
> 
> I just doubt Toronto does.


easy enough to sweeten with a draft pick switch.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

SkywalkerAC said:


> easy enough to sweeten with a draft pick switch.


Portland will take it, since it is currently in their favor  Toronto picking 13, Portland 14. Could still change until the end of the season, naturally.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

andalusian said:


> Portland will take it, since it is currently in their favor  Toronto picking 13, Portland 14. Could still change until the end of the season, naturally.


Raps are at #17. blazers are higher than 14.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

ballocks said:


> two experiments that are not working with our current lineup:
> 
> 1) two pg's. we can't afford to sit one while the other plays if our other options are so limited. we may have to sacrifice our depth at this position in order to improve another... unless we can figure out a way to play them together. that shouldn't be as complicated as we've made it seem but these two look worse every game. like they're not learning anything together. microcosm for the entire team, imo.
> 
> ...


must be some good smack you are having. TJ and Jose on the perim with Gnani? Every 2s and 3s will have a field day against us. Gnani is too big to guard the perim. CV kinda worked but he is much faster and smaller. Gnani has a body of a 5 but plays like a 3 so the best position for him would be to play the 4 a la dirk but we have bosh.

If anything it is the gnani bosh experiment that isn't working out unless gnani can play the god damn 5. At least rebound better and defend, he doesn't need to play the 5 on O just on D.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

SkywalkerAC said:


> Raps are at #17. blazers are higher than 14.


You are right. My mistake. I forgot how much easier it is to get to the playoffs in the east. Was just going by record.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

andalusian said:


> So something like Rights to Rudy, a bad contract and a lesser young player?
> 
> I could see Portland doing this.
> 
> I just doubt Toronto does.


Toronto does it if they could switch picks like Skywalker says. 

If the Raps could grab Donte Greene in that area, whos able to create for himself, it relieves a lot of the pressure around the other guys on this team especially on offense. Rudy and Greene could simply increase the talent pool on this team which is drastically needed. Im not talking about "depth", Im talking about talent. 

If not Greene maybe Thabeet who would add an interior presence on defense from day one.


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