# Could Moses Malone defend Shaq?



## JaK (Aug 13, 2002)

What do you guys think?... I was just watching the 88' All Star Game and I almost forgot how effective of a big man he was... Altho. he only measured in at 6'11... Do you think he could have stopped Shaq in his prime?


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JaK</b>!
> What do you guys think?... I was just watching the 88' All Star Game and I almost forgot how effective of a big man he was... Altho. he only measured in at 6'11... Do you think he could have stopped Shaq in his prime?


NOBODY stops Shaq, but Moses would have made it very tough for Shaq to get his points and Moses rebounded better than Shaq, as he almost always had the best positioning. 

Moses was a scorer, too, so he would have made Shaq have to work on both ends of the floor, which Shaq hasn't had to do much of in his career, as his body is all the positioning he needs for defense nowadays (in other words, he doesn't have the competition that a Moses would give him).


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## pharcyde (Jun 22, 2002)

Shaq's really only 6-11 anyway, so Malone's height wouldn't be a problem.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

actually i'm pretty sure that malone's size vs. the big fella would be a HUGE problem. after all, that IS and always has been shaq's advantage, even against some of the world's biggest athletes. on top of that, shaq isn't 6'11. have you seen this man and how he towers over EVERYONE? he might not be 7'2 but he's taller than 7 feet, guaranteed. 
moses gets dominated by shaq. that's just the way it is. please look at this logically. even shaq would have a hard time guarding shaq in the low post.
as for rebounding, are you sure that moses would rebound better than shaq? he was a better rebounder overall but one's rebounding impact is definately diminished by shaq presence. in a series i'm pretty sure that oneal would come out with the better rebounding numbers, especially considering that he provides the majority of LA's rebounding force.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Depends on what you mean by stop Shaq. While Shaq is dominant, I think he gets too much credit as being the most dominant player of all time. He excells in against unworthy opponents. There are no great defensive centers in the league. 
Could Moses stop him? He might not be able to shut him down but he may have been able to contain him. Moses was 6-11. Dennis Rodman used to D shaq up this was while Dennis was an old man, and he is much smaller than moses.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

moses would have made shaq work hard at both ends of the floor. but no, moses wouldn't be that successful defending shaq, imo. shaq's too big and strong for moses. tactics that worked for moses against kareem or the chief wouldn't have worked very well against shaq. he just wasn't big enough. and moses wasn't much of a shot blocker, so he's relying mostly on keeping shaq out of position. 

rodman didn't guard shaq that often, and had alot of help when he did. shaq still usually shot a high % against dennis, but the double teams and rodman establishing good position kept shaq's shot totals reasonably low.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>moTIGS</b>!
> Shaq's really only 6-11 anyway, so Malone's height wouldn't be a problem.



i hope you are kidding about shaq being 6-11,he towered over jamal magliore last night.


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## Showtime84' (Oct 8, 2002)

Shaq would end up outplaying Malone but the 83' Sixers would destroy the present Lakers!


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## gamadict (Jul 28, 2002)

Great centers don't stop other great centers, they just stop everyone else on the floor. I don't think Moses could defend Shaq/Kareem/Wilt/Hakeem that much better then anyone else...


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## I'm Just Saying (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> actually i'm pretty sure that malone's size vs. the big fella would be a HUGE problem. after all, that IS and always has been shaq's advantage, even against some of the world's biggest athletes. on top of that, shaq isn't 6'11. have you seen this man and how he towers over EVERYONE? he might not be 7'2 but he's taller than 7 feet, guaranteed.
> moses gets dominated by shaq. that's just the way it is. please look at this logically. even shaq would have a hard time guarding shaq in the low post.
> as for rebounding, are you sure that moses would rebound better than shaq? he was a better rebounder overall but one's rebounding impact is definately diminished by shaq presence. in a series i'm pretty sure that oneal would come out with the better rebounding numbers, especially considering that he provides the majority of LA's rebounding force.


The how do you account for hakeem outplaying Shaq in the '95 finals?


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## pharcyde (Jun 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rainman</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> i hope you are kidding about shaq being 6-11,he towered over jamal magliore last night.


I've read in a lot of places that Shaq said this himself.


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## ShaqAttack3234 (Jul 11, 2008)

This is an *OLD* thread but I'm going to bump it because I feel this particular question is interesting and it's similar to a thread I made. However I'd like to focus individually on the Moses vs Shaq comparison.

1.The argument about if a 6-10, 260 could guard Shaq is interesting so i'll compare what a similar size elite center did vs Shaq.

Alonzo Mourning is about 6'10" and 260 pounds and a 2-time defensive player of the year. Here is his head to head matchup with Shaq from their rookie season until 2000.

Shaq's teams went 11-3.
*Shaquille O'Neal-* 30.7 ppg, 13.1 rpg, 3.3 apg, 3.1 bpg, 55.7 FG%
*Alonzo Mourning-* 22.6 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 1.4 apg, 2.4 bpg, 44.2 FG%

I'd expect similar domination in a Shaq vs Malone matchup. You simply can't guard Shaq 1 on 1 with a guy 3 inches shorter. Zo was roughly the same height and weight as Moses but Mourning was in better shape, more athletic and a superior defender. So Moses making Shaq work on the boards and on defense more evens out. Shaq will still put up about 30 ppg on a good % while pretty much matching Moses on the boards and blocking.

Shaq also isn't 6'11". he was measured without shoes at the 1992 pre-draft camp at 7'1" even. Moses wasn't 6'11" either, he was 6'10" and listed that height.


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## tsherkin (Nov 2, 2004)

FYI:

Shaq's draft combine measurements put him at 7'1 WITHOUT shoes, at 303 lbs and with a 7'7 wingspan. 

More to the point, Moses wasn't really that good a defender; acceptable for most of his career, rewarded with an All-Defensive 2nd Team in '83 but in general, not a dominant defender. Yeah, he was strong and stuff but Shaq's considerably heavier and taller. 

And getting "outplayed" by Olajuwon is a myth that anyone who watched the series or read the boxscores knows; Dream's team kicked Shaq's team's butt roundly, but Dream didn't do anything in the individual matchup that really rousted him and he was posting huge numbers himself.


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## BadBaronRudigor (Jul 27, 2006)

Shaq was close to an unstoppable force with the ball in his hands down low. Hakeem didn't stop Shaq, he barely slowed him down; on the other hand, Shaq was helpless to slow Hakeem also. Moses was a solid man defender, particularly in the post where he would use his strength to force opponents off their sweet spot, he wasn't a great help defender which most of the other elite centers were. Moses would probably be better against Shaq than Alonzo Mourning because he relied more on strength and positioning while Zo tended to play looser and rely on his shotblocking more. Obviously that didn't work against Shaq who shoots more dunks than any other great big man ever . . . you can't block a dunk very easily, but you can work to keep Shaq from getting position that far inside. But, my guess is that Moses wouldn't be able to stop Shaq any more than anyone else did (maybe a little better than the seasonal averaged when Shaq was fattening up against the weak sisters of the league)


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## ShaqAttack3234 (Jul 11, 2008)

tsherkin said:


> FYI:
> Shaq's draft combine measurements put him at 7'1 WITHOUT shoes, at 303 lbs and with a 7'7 wingspan.


Yeah I posted that. It's incredible how big he is. I don't think many people realize how few players are legit 7 footers without shoes. Not to mention how few players have had ideal weights over 300 pounds(Shaq, Yao, Muresan....?)



> More to the point, Moses wasn't really that good a defender; acceptable for most of his career, rewarded with an All-Defensive 2nd Team in '83 but in general, not a dominant defender.


Yeah but Shaq would have to use up some energy guarding Malone and fighting him for rebounds so it evens out. I'd say Shaq would average about 30 and 12 head to head with Malone. 



> Yeah, he was strong and stuff but Shaq's considerably heavier and taller.


Exactly and look what he did to similar sized Alonzo Mourning who was more athletic and a superior defender. 



> And getting "outplayed" by Olajuwon is a myth that anyone who watched the series or read the boxscores knows; Dream's team kicked Shaq's team's butt roundly, but Dream didn't do anything in the individual matchup that really rousted him and he was posting huge numbers himself.


Yeah here is Shaq and Hakeem head to head during the 1995 Finals.

*Shaq-* 28.0 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 6.3 apg, 2.5 bpg, 59.5 FG%
*Hakeem-* 32.8 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 5.5 apg, 2.0 bpg, 48.0 FG%

Shaq was probably better statistically, Hakeem was better as far as intangibles but who knows how the series would've turned out if Nick Anderson hadn't missed *FOUR* straight free throws when Orlando was up by 3. 

Shaq and Hakeem head to head from 1993-1997
*Shaquille O'Neal*
25.9 ppg, 13.7 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.3 bpg, 59.1 FG%

*Hakeem Olajuwon*
27.4 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 4.1 apg, 3.3 bpg, 47.8 FG%

Shaq's teams went 6-1 in those games. He outplayed Olajuwon usually averaging 4 more rpg, shooting over 11% better from the floor and averaging just 1.5 less ppg. That also didn't include Shaq's true prime in 2000 and 2001.


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## BadBaronRudigor (Jul 27, 2006)

mmm, you wouldn't have the turnover stats from that series, would you?


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## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

BadBaronRudigor said:


> mmm, you wouldn't have the turnover stats from that series, would you?


Hakeem had 11 TO's in the 4 games (2.75 per game). Shaq had 21 (5.25 per game).


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## tsherkin (Nov 2, 2004)

BadBaronRudigor said:


> Shaq was close to an unstoppable force with the ball in his hands down low. Hakeem didn't stop Shaq, he barely slowed him down; on the other hand, Shaq was helpless to slow Hakeem also.


True, though "helpless" implies Hakeem was doing ESPECIALLY well on offense, when he was mainly chucking mass volumes of shots and shooting under 50%. Still, Shaq didn't really impede Olajuwon very much (though that's hardly fair to expect from a third-year player going up against a HoF center in his prime). 



> Moses was a solid man defender, particularly in the post where he would use his strength to force opponents off their sweet spot,


Which wouldn't work terribly well against Shaq and since he didn't use his feet or hands with great effect, the overall impact of his D would be minimized. It'd be on the glass where the most noticeable effect would occur. 

WRT the turnovers... I might point out that the Magic shooters choked harder than Jeff Hornacek in the Finals, so Orlando's floor spacing was really terrible and that helped lead to the increased turnovers.


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## ShaqAttack3234 (Jul 11, 2008)

tsherkin said:


> True, though "helpless" implies Hakeem was doing ESPECIALLY well on offense, when he was mainly chucking mass volumes of shots and shooting under 50%. Still, Shaq didn't really impede Olajuwon very much (though that's hardly fair to expect from a third-year player going up against a HoF center in his prime).



Shaq did a hell of a lot better vs Hakeem than David Robinson during the playoffs.

1995 Western Conference Finals

*Hakeem Olajuwon-* 35.3 ppg,12.5 rpg, 5.0 apg, 4.1 bpg, 56.0 FG%
*David Robinson-* 23.8 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 2.7 apg, 2.2 bpg 44.9 FG%

Robinson was the 1995 league MVP and a former defensive player of the year in his prime.

Look at what Hakeem did to Ewing in the 1994 Finals a year earlier

*Hakeem Olajuwon-* 26.9 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 3.6 apg, 3.9 bpg, 50.0 FG%, 21.4 FGA
*Patrick Ewing-* 18.9 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 1.7 apg, 4.3 bpg, 36.4 FG%, 22.9 FGA

Ewing is another hall of famer who was right around his prime.

For Shaq to pretty much match Hakeem head to head at 23 years old in his 3rd season is remarkable.


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## jericho (Jul 12, 2002)

Comparing individual stats in these matchups is only part of the story, really. I watched every one of the matchups noted above, and while Shaq really did come remarkably close to holding his own against Hakeem in that series, there was no question that Hakeem had the edge and was the better player at the time. In fact, that experience (getting at least moderately schooled in the Finals) probably was a gift to O'Neal since it showed him starkly what he needed to work at and how a real MVP-caliber player performs under pressure. He had much more composure and drive in later championship series.

And I agree with Baron and tsherkin about a Moses-Shaq matchup. I loved Moses' game, I think his defense is underrated today, and I think there's a very good chance he'd at least outrebound Shaq, but he just wouldn't have the physical gifts to beat the big guy at his own game. He'd certainly make him work hard at both ends of the floor, but Wilt or Gilmore come closer to having the requisite mass and strength to actually slow him down.


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## tsherkin (Nov 2, 2004)

You don't have to tell ME that, ShaqAttack; I WATCHED the series, lol. I saw Shaq do whatever he wanted to Hakeem in isolation and then have most of his turnovers come in moments where he was triple- or quadruple-teamed because Scott and Anderson were useless and Penny was off the floor. Outside of Penny and Grant, Shaq had no offensive help besides Brian Shaw's longball. Nick Anderson shot under 30% from downtown and 3/10 FT (he was also 18/50 FG). 

Scott was 7/29 from 3, 13/42 overall. Turner was 2/10 (2/6 from downtown), and Bowie doesn't count because he played like 6 mpg through the series. 6/10 from him doesn't really count as offensive help. 

Remember though, Nick Anderson shot 41.5% 3P during the regular season; Dennis Scott, 42.6%. For those two guys to combine for 28.3% from downtown on 15 attempts a game between the two of them was pretty much a death knell for the Magic... and it had to do with them choking but also with the absolutely outstanding help defense the Rockets put together.


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## ShaqAttack3234 (Jul 11, 2008)

jericho said:


> Comparing individual stats in these matchups is only part of the story, really. I watched every one of the matchups noted above, and while Shaq really did come remarkably close to holding his own against Hakeem in that series, there was no question that Hakeem had the edge and was the better player at the time. In fact, that experience (getting at least moderately schooled in the Finals) probably was a gift to O'Neal since it showed him starkly what he needed to work at and how a real MVP-caliber player performs under pressure. He had much more composure and drive in later championship series.


I agree with everything you said and I watched each of the series too. I gave Olajuwon a clear edge in intangibles but I'm pointing out Shaq didn't get dominated like Robinson or Ewing did. Shaq was pretty much an even match for Hakeem in 1995.



jericho said:


> And I agree with Baron and tsherkin about a Moses-Shaq matchup. I loved Moses' game, I think his defense is underrated today, and I think there's a very good chance he'd at least outrebound Shaq, but he just wouldn't have the physical gifts to beat the big guy at his own game. He'd certainly make him work hard at both ends of the floor, but Wilt or Gilmore come closer to having the requisite mass and strength to actually slow him down.


Yeah, you need to have about equal height to Shaq, be atleast somewhere near as strong, be a force on both ends and have comparable athletcisim to have a chance. Wilt and Artis fit all of those requirements although Artis, less than Wilt.


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