# Friedell: Bulls Should Likely Part With Deng



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

> The reality is that Deng is likely going to want something close to what he is scheduled to make this season -- which is over $14 million.
> Unless Deng is willing to take a significant hometown discount, and there's been no indication about that to this point, I don't think there's any question as to what the Bulls should do -- either trade him or let him go next summer.
> 
> There is a feeling among many within the organization that this team, the way it's currently constructed, still has a chance to win a championship next season. The thinking is that since Deng doesn't nearly have as much trade value as he had in previous years, why not just give it one more run and see what can happen with a core of Derrick Rose, Joakim Noah and Deng?
> ...


More at the link:

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/bulls/post/_/id/14606/parting-ways-with-deng-may-be-best

I agree.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Hard to analyze these things in a vacuum - the question that comes to mind for me is, what would we get for him? Deng isn't a superstar, but he's a borderline all-star that brings a lot of positives on both ends... those guys are hard to place a pricetag on sometimes. 

I'm kind of torn at this point... I think we should be going championship or bust on the one hand, but I worry on the other hand that the grass really isn't greener on the other side. People criticize Boozer, for example, but all we've done since we got him is win games (coinciding with Thibs' arrival, obviously). Deng is exceedingly un-sexy, but he plays defense, gets rebounds, moves without the ball and seems like a quality guy/leader. I'd like to see what Jimmy Butler does this year (expectations are starting to run wild, I think) and I'd like to know what the possible return on Deng would be before I make up my mind, I guess.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Dornado said:


> Hard to analyze these things in a vacuum - the question that comes to mind for me is, what would we get for him? Deng isn't a superstar, but he's a borderline all-star that brings a lot of positives on both ends... those guys are hard to place a pricetag on sometimes.
> 
> I'm kind of torn at this point... I think we should be going championship or bust on the one hand, but I worry on the other hand that the grass really isn't greener on the other side. People criticize Boozer, for example, but all we've done since we got him is win games (coinciding with Thibs' arrival, obviously). Deng is exceedingly un-sexy, but he plays defense, gets rebounds, moves without the ball and seems like a quality guy/leader. I'd like to see what Jimmy Butler does this year (expectations are starting to run wild, I think) and I'd like to know what the possible return on Deng would be before I make up my mind, I guess.



Yeah, if the Bulls want to go all-in for a championship this year, and simply risk losing Deng for nothing at the end of the season, I can respect that decision. In any trade this year, I don't want to see anything that reduces the Bulls' win-now potential.

I just can't see giving him $14M/year in another long-term deal.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

I'm fine with losing Deng for nothing. All it means is we can spend 10-11 million on another player or more if we decide to let Mirotic stay overseas another year.

The move to critique will be how well we did replacing him with another player in the FA market should it come to that. It may even mean we keep Boozer another year and target the 2015 FA class.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

The Bulls will not trade Deng. They are crazy and dumb enough to re-sign him to 12 million a year after this season. 

Gar has gone on record saying that he hasn't made any calls about trading Deng, which either means he is waiting for some other team to blow him away with an offer for Deng (Which is not going to happen) or hes confident that they will re-sign him or win a title this year. 

The whole cap space talk when it comes to this franchise is nothing to be excited about. They will most likely spend most of it on Mirotic, picking up Dunleavy next year and probably overvaluing and giving Butler some dumb Taj esque contract extension.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

And then we'll continue to suck like we have been......wait?

chin up, bizkit.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Good Hope said:


> And then we'll continue to suck like we have been......wait?
> 
> chin up, bizkit.


Continue to lose in the playoffs, sure.


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## Firefight (Jul 2, 2010)

That cap space (from Deng and/or Boozer) will not be eaten up all by Mirotic... Not even close. 

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Firefight said:


> That cap space (from Deng and/or Boozer) will not be eaten up all by Mirotic... Not even close.
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


It wont be gone, my main point was with the Bulls track record of Free Agency, I honestly don't see the Bulls doing much of anything other than sign Mirotic to a more lucrative contract.

Lebron isn't coming here.
Melo isn't coming here.
Indiana will match any offer made for Paul George, so no point in making an offer. 

We are looking at older vets like Kobe, Pau, Duncan, Dirk, Randolph, etc. 

Or another option is overpay for a young guy like Derrick Favors and hope he pans out.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> It wont be gone, my main point was with the Bulls track record of Free Agency, I honestly don't see the Bulls doing much of anything other than sign Mirotic to a more lucrative contract.
> 
> Lebron isn't coming here.
> Melo isn't coming here.
> ...


To me, this next offseason is pretty simple.

Assuming a max type FA has interest in us, we can dump Taj for a young player or pick to shed salary in addition to letting Deng walk and amnestying Boozer. The odds of this are probably small, but do your due diligence.

Should no option exist, we still have Taj and Boozer and can explore replacing Deng with a SG or SF that will accept a 5-11 deal either in a FA signing or trade. Mirotic factors into the decision here as well.

If we can't find someone better, sign Deng. Offer him 4 years $40-48 million with a team option on year 4 so that his and Taj's contract comes off the books the same year we have to re-up Rose. Then, make a decision if we want to pay so many lux tax dollars to keep Boozer around at another title run or if we amnesty him to bring Mirotic over.

The one thing I like about the front office, is that they value flexibility. They are still in a position to win now while remaining flexible to improve other ways should the option come up.

Obviously, your frustration with them comes from not taking some sort of more aggressive action. Still, I feel this team is about on par with the Heat as is any other. We are in the top 4 contender short list and have as real a shot of knocking off the Heat as any.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Rhyder said:


> To me, this next offseason is pretty simple.
> 
> Assuming a max type FA has interest in us, we can dump Taj for a young player or pick to shed salary in addition to letting Deng walk and amnestying Boozer. The odds of this are probably small, but do your due diligence.


There just is no interest from the top free agents in 2014. The only way we are getting a max guy in here is via trade, and the Bulls just don't make these moves. 



> Should no option exist, we still have Taj and Boozer and can explore replacing Deng with a SG or SF that will accept a 5-11 deal either in a FA signing or trade. Mirotic factors into the decision here as well.
> 
> If we can't find someone better, sign Deng. Offer him 4 years $40-48 million with a team option on year 4 so that his and Taj's contract comes off the books the same year we have to re-up Rose. Then, make a decision if we want to pay so many lux tax dollars to keep Boozer around at another title run or if we amnesty him to bring Mirotic over.


Starting the 2014 season with Deng as your big time free agent pickup would be a failure. 



> The one thing I like about the front office, is that they value flexibility. They are still in a position to win now while remaining flexible to improve other ways should the option come up.
> 
> Obviously, your frustration with them comes from not taking some sort of more aggressive action. Still, I feel this team is about on par with the Heat as is any other. We are in the top 4 contender short list and have as real a shot of knocking off the Heat as any.


Its what you do with that flexibility though. The Bulls have had this kind of flexibility before and all we got out of it was Ron Mercer, Eddie Robinson and Carlos Boozer. 

The argument can be made that since 2010, several other teams have either become as good as the Bulls or better. The Bulls don't have a real shot of knocking off the Heat, its a fact. What makes the Heat vulnerable, the Bulls just don't have.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> What makes the Heat vulnerable, the Bulls just don't have.


What makes the Heat vulnerable?

Size and shooting.

You were saying?


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> What makes the Heat vulnerable?
> 
> Size and shooting.
> 
> You were saying?


Exactly! 

Who is going to score in the paint and give them issues like Hibbert and Duncan did? Boozer, Noah? LOL. Whats funny about your post is you assume the Bulls have the size advantage when Lebron and Bosh are both the same size as Boozer and Noah. 

Vs Heat in Playoffs 

Noah 7.9 ppg 36%fg
Boozer 14.7 ppg 41%fg

Hibbert vs the Heat in 2013 playoffs
22 ppg 55%fg

Duncan vs Heat in 2013 playoffs
19 ppg 50%fg 37 years old!

Shooting?

Bulls were 20th in 3 point fg% (Miami 2nd)

Wake up dude. We don't match up against the Heat.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Who is going to score in the paint and give them issues like Hibbert and Duncan did? Boozer, Noah? LOL. Whats funny about your post is you assume the Bulls have the size advantage when Lebron and Bosh are both the same size as Boozer and Noah.
> 
> ...


I'm not talking about paint scoring (but I do love that that's the first thing you go to). The Bulls' size allows them to kill Miami on the boards.

Hibbert had the series of his life against Miami this year. I'm not sure he's a long-term useful data point.



> Shooting?
> 
> Bulls were 20th in 3 point fg% (Miami 2nd)
> 
> Wake up dude. We don't match up against the Heat.



Yes, and you may have missed that, per Thibodeau's request, the Bulls FO has focused every move this offseason on adding shooters.

BUT WAKE UP DUDE!!!!!!!!


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Who is going to score in the paint and give them issues like Hibbert and Duncan did? Boozer, Noah? LOL. Whats funny about your post is you assume the Bulls have the size advantage when Lebron and Bosh are both the same size as Boozer and Noah.
> 
> ...


Boozer did put up 19 and 15 in 4 regular season games against the Heat, for what it is worth. Comparing cumulative stats from multiple series to single series stats is a bit disingenuous, though I know Boozer's stats against the heat in the playoffs this year were only marginally improved.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

to be truthful the last 12 months was about a wasted opportunity .

the moment rose went down the 2012-13 season was over , nobody comes back immediately from that injury at full strength , nobody so even if he had come back the season would have likely ended exactly as it did , in the 2nd round vs. the heat .

then....

lose asik for nothing.

2nd lose the rest of the bench mob ...except taj.

3rd keep all the starters despite fact their value will only go down from that point (this is especially true of deng and boozer) rip was eventually released.

so at the end of the day and 2 seasons you have essentially the same team that keeps losing to the heat(swap out asik and add butler, a net loss btw) with all the same strengths and weaknesses....a tweak here or there doesn't change the fact that even outside of the heat the east has reloaded quite a bit since rose went down.

the nets have added pierce and garnett to a 49 win team and before that they added joe johnson.

the knicks became a 54 win team and have supposedly added bargnani to be their #2 , ( i am extremely skeptical this is the case , but they gave up virtually nothing to find out) and are going to have shumpert fully healthy 

the pacers are adding granger to a 49 win team.

they should have parted with deng and boozer 12 months ago, gotten some youth a better draft position , and the bulls would be in a much better position to move forward


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Dornado said:


> Hard to analyze these things in a vacuum - the question that comes to mind for me is, what would we get for him? Deng isn't a superstar, but he's a borderline all-star that brings a lot of positives on both ends... those guys are hard to place a pricetag on sometimes.
> 
> I'm kind of torn at this point... I think we should be going championship or bust on the one hand, but I worry on the other hand that the grass really isn't greener on the other side. People criticize Boozer, for example, but all we've done since we got him is win games (coinciding with Thibs' arrival, obviously). Deng is exceedingly un-sexy, but he plays defense, gets rebounds, moves without the ball and seems like a quality guy/leader. I'd like to see what Jimmy Butler does this year (expectations are starting to run wild, I think) and I'd like to know what the possible return on Deng would be before I make up my mind, I guess.


That's a hoot lol. This team was built in a vacuum.

Look who gives Miami problems. Teams with a big, massive center with mediocre post game and length OR teams with a big, not-quite-massive post player with good post moves and length.

Guess who doesn't give Miami problems? Joakim Noah and Serge Ibaka/Kendrick Perkins.

Watch both of those series. (11 ECF, 12 Finals)... it's blatantly obvious. 

Miami's weakness is centered around a combination of problems.

1. Joel Anthony sucks. They are worse when he, their only/best "center" is on the court.
2. Because they're married to the big 3, Miami does not have money/assets to go find someone who can defend size at the post and be any kind of real player.
3. Because of that, they have to ask BOSH to do it.. with either James at the four or with Miller or Anderson at the four.
4. Bosh is too light in the rear end to defend anyone with size who isn't short and stubby like Boozer. Oh he's happy to get pushed back only to be long enough to just be able to get up there and tip a shot of a player like Boozer. If you have some size on Bosh AND the length to get a shot over him, you can get into his body, push him back, turn and execute some good old fashioned Wooden post offense. 
5. This causes James to either let this happen.. not good OR to get sucked into the paint. NOW you have open spacing for jump shooters, open lanes for slashers and drivers.

This is why Tim Duncan looked like a corpse v. OKC last year and all the sudden here he is a year later making Miami miserable... you do all realize there is NO reason that THAT Spurs team, well past their prime, should have taken this Heat team to the brink in game 6 and then into a game 7, right? That would be like the 92 Bulls getting taken to game 7 by the 92 Pistons or Celtics.

This is why Roy Hibbert's career numbers on offense were rather pedestrian and then like magic, v. the Heat, he's all world down low, giving them major problems. Once again, not a series that should have gone as far as it did.

The Bulls choose to ignore reality. Put a player at center, where Bosh is, that is not a one-on-one threat to score on Bosh?? The Heat are creaming themselves at this idea. You can't beat the Heat offensively with a plan that comes from individual offense generated at the one, two, three or four. You need to beat them at the five, period!! It's OBVIOUS. And we can cut the BS about Duncan being a four.. he can function as a five just as well and if Boozer was Duncan's size with his post moves, I would be VERY optimistic about our chances v. Miami. 

Bosh loves the idea of being able to "guard" a guy he only has to half defend. To be able to pay lip service defensively to the pedestrian offender Noah and then roam the floor to help others? Miami's gameplan never got so easy. 

I'd trade Noah RIGHT NOW for DeMarcus Cousins or Andre Drummond. Cousins individual offensive numbers in the regular season were better than Hibberts. Why couldn't he cause Miami the same trouble? 

With Cousin's size, and with the whole Andrew Bynum approach ... you know... "I'm not really a 'basketball player' per se, shhh, don't tell anyone, but the NBA will allow me to just camp my butt right in front of the rim and wait for easy put backs"... now you really can get a much greater role for Taj Gibson. Taj couldn't dribble or hit a contested jumper to save his life. Throw a shot up with Cousins right in front of the rim and now Taj has the open floor to be able to launch himself at the rim for rebounds. 

Then you can spend your money next offseason on a four... the thing about a good four is that they run a dime a dozen. EVEN DECENT fives do not. And yes, Noah is more than decent.. we just need a guy who can score. If Miami had Brad Daugherty instead of Chris Bosh, Noah would be awesome. They don't. 

Deng? An afterthought. A fan boy favorite. A "two time all star" the same way Terry Porter was in multiple all star games. Nobody outside of Portland really gave a rats rear end. Let his contract rot and fall off the tree. I'd much rather see Butler at the 3 ... I thought he looked really good on James defensively.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> I'm not talking about paint scoring (but I do love that that's the first thing you go to). The Bulls' size allows them to kill Miami on the boards.


Everyone killed the Heat on the boards.... they still won back to back titles. The Bulls did it in 2010 and 2013 and still got killed by the Heat, so whats your point?



> Yes, and you may have missed that, per Thibodeau's request, the Bulls FO has focused every move this offseason on adding shooters.
> 
> BUT WAKE UP DUDE!!!!!!!!


Yes, because losing your 2 best 3 point shooters, adding 1 good 3 point shooter and drafting 2 rookies who probably wont even play (which is the Thibs MO) is solving all our shooting problems....


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

I love how hoodey quotes my post, says something condescending, then goes on an unrelated rant. What a "hoot"


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Dornado said:


> I love how hoodey quotes my post, says something condescending, then goes on an unrelated rant. What a "hoot"


It's hilarious that you bust out analyzing these things in a vacuum when you support a strategy that has vacuum written all over it. 

Answer me this Dornado...

Are we attacking Miami's biggest weakness as well as San Antonio, Dallas and Indiana did? 

And that's an open question regardless of what any of you Pax supporters are posting about.

Now a real hoot will be you claiming not to be a Pax fan boy, and then in the same post managing to try to completely justify the way this team is built... by Paxson.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Hoodey said:


> It's hilarious that you bust out analyzing these things in a vacuum when you support a strategy that has vacuum written all over it.
> 
> Answer me this Dornado...
> 
> ...


You have no idea what I support, shut the **** up, seriously. Every time you come on here you try to put words in people's mouths and it is really ****ing old and is why nobody on this board takes you seriously. You are delusional. You tilt and windmills. You're on some ridiculous quixotic mission to take down people that used to post on this board over half a decade ago and currently post at realgm. Go there, please. 

All I did was say that I wanted to know what we'd get back for him, and that I wasn't convinced yet that Jimmy Butler was the long term answer. I'm not responding to the rest of your bullshit.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Dornado said:


> You have no idea what I support, shut the **** up, seriously. Every time you come on here you try to put words in people's mouths and it is really ****ing old and is why nobody on this board takes you seriously. You are delusional. You tilt and windmills. You're on some ridiculous quixotic mission to take down people that used to post on this board over half a decade ago and currently post at realgm. Go there, please.
> 
> All I did was say that I wanted to know what we'd get back for him, and that I wasn't convinced yet that Jimmy Butler was the long term answer. I'm not responding to the rest of your bullshit.


Yawn... not going to get into your personal feelings about me. I have no personal feelings about you. I only have feelings about how you post Bulls basketball. It's like work.. everyone wants to evaluate people at work based on how popular they are... it's not a party, it's a job. That's why you get people scratching their head wondering how projects went up in smoke when they gave it to the 5'2" girl with DDs who can't stop talking about how she needs a man with a Benz... odd. Stick to basketball. a) I've made it abundantly clear I'll never care what you think, b) it's not a "who is the most awesome guy" forum. I'm sure they have those on some Oprah owned website somewhere. 

You made the comment about vacuums... ironic when I've seen your overall support for this organization.. support you cannot deny. And yet, what is support for this organization? It's ignorance of attacking our opponent the way the most successful teams have.. and it's going through each player, as if you were in a vacuum, saying things like, "Noah sure is a cagey player who plays good defense." And that's all fine and dandy... as you said... IN A VACUUM. Noah does nothing to attack the weakness of our main competitor.

"I'm not sure Butler is the answer." WHY NOT?! He's one of the only players on our team that says, "championship" in his current role.. with Gibson and Rose being the others.. Butler and Gibson mostly because of how little is asked of them. If you ironically step OUTSIDE of a vacuum, Butler does something very important that you need against Miami. He provides a good speed defensive matchup on Lebron James. If you go back to Michael's career, instead of going with someone Michael's size who Michael always flew by, his toughest matchups were usually with smaller, quicker types like Joe Dumars and Kevin Johnson. Until Lebron shows that he can take a guy like Butler into the post and just constantly drain quick hitting turn around 12 footers, Jimmy Butler is a phenomenal matchup.

Now, I have been to realgm and there are people there saying that Butler, "Could be our Scottie Pippen." If you youtube, "Michael Jordan Red Warriors" and actually watch many highlights lost in time, the assertion that he can be Pippen is hilarious, but as our Bruce Bowen (4th scorer on open jumpers, best perimeter defender)... particularly CONSIDERING LEBRON'S POSITION OUTSIDE of a vacuum, Butler is as much of an answer as anything we have on this team. 

If anything Noah.. who I talked about because of my consideration of him as a much greater threat to stop my Bulls from winning a title... and Deng.. have benefited more from being analyzed in a vacuum than anybody on the team.

"He's solid.. he defends well.. he's a two time all star."

Sounds great. Consider Deng. He's massively overpaid especially for the new CBA, he's not a threat to drive by your Mom in a man up dribble drive situation.... analyzing him in a vacuum has always ignored that while he may be a decent championship #3 player, this team needs a #2. Legit #2s are usually grown internally or acquired as young guys who are not thought of as #2s when they are acquired (see Scottie Pippen, Joe Dumars, Kevin McHale, Kobe Bryant, Tony Parker, etc.)... they are acquired far less frequently by wishing your current guy who doesn't pass the laugh test as a #2 will BECOME a legit #2 OR by going out and getting a top free agent (Kevin Love).

IN A VACUUM is the only way you could justify:

a) Keeping Deng now
b) Having kept him for the past few years
c) Having signed him to that ridiculous contract

Outside a vacuum where every acquisition must stand up to the scrutiny of the question, "how does this guy help us beat the Heat/any legit champion" Luol Deng is what you call a terrible idea.

I get the whole thing where Jerry Krause drafted Eddy Curry and signed Eddie Robinson and then Paxson brought in all these guys who made you say, "I can be proud of these guys.. this is not a Jerry Krause team!" It's been a decade. "At least they aren't the guys Krause brought in" isn't good enough when you have the 3rd best player in the league as your franchise cornerstone. 

So yes, I can ponder your past posts/support for this organization, see the words, "you can't analyze in a vacuum" and almost go red lol....


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

I read none of that.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Dornado said:


> I read none of that.


Of course you didn't... you were probably busy writing a letter to Cardinal Richelieu about who is the better guy, you or I lol...

Entitled:

"Basketball points are irrelevant... I'm a nice guy."

Hilarious.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Nope, just waiting for you to go away, like everyone else. You still have zero sense of what my opinions are because you're too busy doing your manic hoodey ramblings about people who like John Paxson (who I don't have strong feelings about and never really mention). I say "what could we get for Deng?" as part of a normal conversation about the merits of trading him and you go on some ridiculous rant against a strawman you've created. I'll stick to talking basketball with the sane among us.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Can we just get back on topic. 

If Deng can bring back something of value, I'm all for it.


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Can we just get back on topic.
> 
> If Deng can bring back something of value, I'm all for it.




Hopefully by now, everyone knows what Deng brings on the court…when he is not on the injury list (quite an important factor).

*The question is how much it costs ?!*

20M / three years – imo, that is maximum what we should pay him.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Bulls96 said:


> Hopefully by now, everyone knows what Deng brings on the court…when he is not on the injury list (quite an important factor).
> 
> *The question is how much it costs ?!*
> 
> 20M / three years – imo, that is maximum what we should pay him.



The nice thing is that of late, he's been an ironman rather than the injury-prone guy he seemed to be earlier in his career.

Obviously, if 3 years, $20M is your ceiling, that's as good as saying "goodbye." I'd go higher than that, but I suspect my number is still less than what he'd get on the open market. I have a hard time seeing giving him more than $10M/season.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Well, Josh Smith got what - 4 years 54 million or 13.5/year? I'd imagine that if you are Deng's agent that's the comparable player you'll point to. Deng would be 32 at the end of that deal, but it isn't so much the length of the deal as it is the cap number. I suspect if we think we're going to be able to flip him for a guy like Andre Drummond that we will end up disappointed... the same probably goes for Demarcus Cousins, who is flawed but showing progress from an efficiency standpoint. I don't see the Pistons trading Drummond at all, and I don't see the Kings moving Cousins for a 28 year old Deng. And Cousins is a moron, which is concerning. Just letting Deng expire seems like a waste of an asset, so hopefully we'd rule that out (as he'd at minimum have value as an expiring contract around the trade deadline, maybe we can get a pick + expirings from someone if that's the case). I'm just not sure there's a way to flip Deng for a dynamic second option... so the question is whether you want to keep him around as a slightly overpaid solid 3rd or 4th option who contributes well to the team concept. Or, maybe Rhyder is right and his money can be spent elsewhere, I just know it is hard to open enough cap space to offer a max deal, which in this day and age we'll need if we're going to snag a legit #2 for D-Rose to run with.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Its up to Deng obviously, but with how contracts are going nowadays its either take a lot less to play for a contender (Monta Ellis fantastic deal with the Mavs) or get paid to play on a bum ass team (Josh Smith 13.5 a year for Detroit).

Either way, unless the Bulls can find a legit #2 option, Deng will continue to be overvalued on the Bulls. Imagine if we had a guy who can give us 20 a night from the 5 or 4, that then makes Deng very valuable as a #3-4 option who can focus on the open jumper and defense. As is, he is a horrible #2 option.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Dornado said:


> Well, Josh Smith got what - 4 years 54 million or 13.5/year? I'd imagine that if you are Deng's agent that's the comparable player you'll point to. Deng would be 32 at the end of that deal, but it isn't so much the length of the deal as it is the cap number. I suspect if we think we're going to be able to flip him for a guy like Andre Drummond that we will end up disappointed... the same probably goes for Demarcus Cousins, who is flawed but showing progress from an efficiency standpoint. I don't see the Pistons trading Drummond at all, and I don't see the Kings moving Cousins for a 28 year old Deng. And Cousins is a moron, which is concerning. Just letting Deng expire seems like a waste of an asset, so hopefully we'd rule that out (as he'd at minimum have value as an expiring contract around the trade deadline, maybe we can get a pick + expirings from someone if that's the case). I'm just not sure there's a way to flip Deng for a dynamic second option... so the question is whether you want to keep him around as a slightly overpaid solid 3rd or 4th option who contributes well to the team concept. Or, maybe Rhyder is right and his money can be spent elsewhere, I just know it is hard to open enough cap space to offer a max deal, which in this day and age we'll need if we're going to snag a legit #2 for D-Rose to run with.



I think we have to make peace with the risk of losing Deng for nothing. The Bulls next season should be in a win-at-all-costs posture. That means you don't trade Deng for a draft pick or other non win-now options. You keep Deng because it gives you the best chance to win next year. That means you may lose him for nothing, sure. But losing him for "nothing" still takes his salary off the books and puts you in line (if you make another move like dealing Taj) to make some good noise in free agency after next season. It has to be considered.

In the NBA now, you simply can't afford to pay a whole lot of guys a big salary. Rose and Noah are going to be high salary pieces for the long-term. You can maybe have one other guy like that. Like others have noted, I'm not sure Deng is the third huge salary you want if you want to win championships.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Deng is a very good basketball player , but ....what provides the bulls isn't worth anything near 14 million.

he is an excellent man defender , good all around player but a not particularly gifted or efficient scorer, compared to past title or title contending teams he has a role similar to shawn marion or jerome kersey which is to provide some opportunistic scoring but mainly be a glue guy, defend and rebound

on a team nowadays that kind of salary to a non-star player can kill your team's prospects of adding top shelf talent because of how punitive the cba has become...especially for a team as historically cost conscience as the bulls.

on a bad team who would press him to score more for them , he would be worth his salary but basically he is paid to be a #2 option , and he isn't capable of scoring at the level a #2 option on a good team, but on a poor team he could help provide a culture change ...but on the bulls he is worth 7-8 million with a healthy derrick rose


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> I think we have to make peace with the risk of losing Deng for nothing. The Bulls next season should be in a win-at-all-costs posture. That means you don't trade Deng for a draft pick or other non win-now options. You keep Deng because it gives you the best chance to win next year. That means you may lose him for nothing, sure. But losing him for "nothing" still takes his salary off the books and puts you in line (if you make another move like dealing Taj) to make some good noise in free agency after next season. It has to be considered.
> 
> In the NBA now, you simply can't afford to pay a whole lot of guys a big salary. Rose and Noah are going to be high salary pieces for the long-term. You can maybe have one other guy like that. Like others have noted, I'm not sure Deng is the third huge salary you want if you want to win championships.


True, and part of what makes Deng expendable is Jimmy. Would you rather Deng at the 3 making $12 million, or do we play Jimmy Butler at the position for $1 million and use those dollars to improve in other areas?

If we can turn Deng and Taj into Kevin Love or someone of that nature and bring Mirotic over after amnestying Boozer, we're looking next year at:

Rose/Teague
Butler/Snell
Dunleavy/1R pick
Love/Mirotic/Murphy
Noah/Nazr

Re-sign Love at the end of the season and fill in Dunleavy's hole with a MLE guy. Mirotic and Snell can probably both cover minutes at the SF in a reserve role as well.

We lose bench depth, but upgrade our starters and surround Rose with shooters.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Dornado said:


> Well, Josh Smith got what - 4 years 54 million or 13.5/year?


So, reply to someone offering a deal way above market value by ... offering a similarly bad deal, because someone else did? 

Knock it off. 

If we pay Deng that or anything close to it, kiss a chance at a title with Rose good bye and kiss Rose good bye also...


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Rhyder said:


> True, and part of what makes Deng expendable is Jimmy. Would you rather Deng at the 3 making $12 million, or do we play Jimmy Butler at the position for $1 million and use those dollars to improve in other areas?
> 
> If we can turn Deng and Taj into Kevin Love or someone of that nature and bring Mirotic over after amnestying Boozer, we're looking next year at:
> 
> ...


Kevin Love does not bring us closer to a championship. He actually brings us further into basketball hell. Miami hopes we get Kevin Love.

This is the trap. Players who aren't good enough who you overpay.. but alas.. just when you might finally admit you were wrong and at least get flexibility by just walking away, you try to "fix it" and dig yourself even deeper.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

I was pointing out what Deng would likely be asking for, then said I was concerned with the cap number. I'm ignoring the rest of your bullshit since I'm now somewhat convinced it stems from reading comprehension issues. A good rule of thumb is that if you are talking about me or other posters and not about basketball you're doing it wrong.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Blog a Bull argues for letting Deng go and trying to get both Kobe & Dirk with cap space next summer. 

http://www.blogabull.com/2013/7/25/...obe-bryant-dirk-nowitzki-nba-free-agency-2014

Highly unlikely of course. They would need to take discounts to get both, let alone convince them to leave the only teams they've been on. Still, this would be a sweet lineup, even if Dirk and Kobe are up there in years they can still score the ball.

Rose, Kobe, Butler, Dirk, Noah
Teague, Hinrich, Snell, Dunleavy, Mirotic, Gibson

That is a damn good team all around.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Hoodey said:


> Kevin Love does not bring us closer to a championship. He actually brings us further into basketball hell. Miami hopes we get Kevin Love.
> 
> This is the trap. Players who aren't good enough who you overpay.. but alas.. just when you might finally admit you were wrong and at least get flexibility by just walking away, you try to "fix it" and dig yourself even deeper.


Actually, Kevin Love over Boozer gets us closer to a title. ESPECIALLY against a team that's only weaknesses are outside shooting, rebounding and inside scoring. Kevin Love at least brings you the ability to shoot 3's and rebound like a machine.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

> Given the Bulls' salary cap situation, it's a near certainty they will amnesty the final year of Carlos Boozer's deal worth nearly $17 million. With Deng's $14 million coming off the books along with Kirk Hinrich's $4 million, *the Bulls are expected to have somewhere in the neighborhood of $16-17 million depending on how the final numbers shake out* now that Mike Dunleavy is in the fold for the next couple seasons at $3 million a year.


Nick needs to do some math here. Here's the Bulls' 2014 cap situation as I understand it:

Derrick Rose $18,862,876
Carlos Boozer $16,800,000
Joakim Noah $12,200,000
Taj Gibson $8,000,000
Mike Dunleavy Jr $3,326,235
Tony Snell $1,472,400
Jimmy Butler $2,008,748
Marquis Teague $1,120,920
Erik Murphy $816,482

Total: $64,607,661
Less amnestied Boozer=$47,807,661
Add $1.5mil for draft pick=$49,307,661
Add 3 vet minimum salary cap holds of $915k each=$52,052,661

I'm assuming that the cap will be $59mil, so best case (without salary-dumping signed players) is that you have $7mil of available cap space and $7mil of cap space isn't nearly as sexy as Nick's "$16-17million."

But wait! There's more.

If Boozer's amnesty next offseason is certain, so is the signing of Mirotic for the $5mil mid-level exception. That replaces one of the $915k cap holds with the $5mil so it reduces the available cap space to about $3mil.

So, you can re-sign Deng or see what you can do with your $3mil in cap space to replace his production.

You're going to read a lot of folks talking about all this great cap space the Bulls will have if they amnesty Boozer and let Deng walk. Either tell me how I'm wrong or keep that measly $3mil in mind.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

^I am betting he was using the luxury tax threshold of ~$70M to calculate cap space, rather than the actual salary cap number. 

You are right, we're only going to have meaningful cap space if we amnesty Boozer, let Deng walk, and trade Taj Gibson for an expiring. And I believe we will try to get Mirotic over here for a $5M per year salary starting next year which cuts into this plan. 

It seems far more likely we are positioning ourselves for a trade at some point rather than a big FA signing, in which case we need to be accumulating assets that will appeal to trade partners. Until that happens we'll go as far as we can with the horses we have.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

yodurk said:


> ^I am betting he was using the luxury tax threshold of ~$70M to calculate cap space, rather than the actual salary cap number.
> 
> You are right, we're only going to have meaningful cap space if we amnesty Boozer, let Deng walk, and trade Taj Gibson for an expiring. And I believe we will try to get Mirotic over here for a $5M per year salary starting next year which cuts into this plan.
> 
> It seems far more likely we are positioning ourselves for a trade at some point rather than a big FA signing, in which case we need to be accumulating assets that will appeal to trade partners. Until that happens we'll go as far as we can with the horses we have.


If Friedell mixed up salary cap and LT threshhold, then, well, I'm not sure what to say.

FWIW, here's what I think the Bulls have in mind.

What critics call the Bulls "2014 Plan" is essentially nothing more than A (as opposed to THE) plan over which *the Bulls have almost complete control*, that is, it's very doable without the cooperation of other GMs. The Bulls amnesty Boozer and sign Mirotic to a MLE deal. Deng is re-signed. Other than the Mirotic-for-Boozer swap, the core remains in place and the Bulls would still have the Bobcats pick as an asset.

This 2014 plan is a worst-case scenario and IMO, as worst-case scenarios go, it's damn good. If Bulls' management believe they can improve on this scenario, like by trading Deng, Gibson, any other player or the rights to Mirotic or the Bobcats pick, then great.

As I look at things, there's a chance that Bulls' management will find themselves with a choice of either re-signing Deng for $12-14mil/year or letting him walk and trying to replace Deng's production with that lousy $3mil in cap space. Good f'in luck with that.

If it comes down to this, I don't give a flying **** whether paying Deng $14mil/year is an overpayment. I only care that it gives the team a better chance to win a title. Frankly, I find it kind of weird that so many of the same people who criticize Bulls management for being cheap would hammer them for overpaying Deng, despite the fact that it would make the team better than the alternatives actions.

/rant


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Hoodey said:


> Kevin Love does not bring us closer to a championship. He actually brings us further into basketball hell. Miami hopes we get Kevin Love.
> 
> This is the trap. Players who aren't good enough who you overpay.. but alas.. just when you might finally admit you were wrong and at least get flexibility by just walking away, you try to "fix it" and dig yourself even deeper.


This doesn't make any sense.

The Bulls have a bad contract on the roster in Boozer. Assume we have to "overpay" Kevin Love. How does replacing one bad contract with another bring us any closer to basketball hell when the player we are replacing Boozer with is better?

Who is this magical player who deserves the max and is not overpaid that would turn us into instant favorites? Cousins? lmao


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

transplant said:


> If Friedell mixed up salary cap and LT threshhold, then, well, I'm not sure what to say.
> 
> FWIW, here's what I think the Bulls have in mind.
> 
> ...


Yep, I agree with all of this. And I am OK with it mainly b/c I'm a believer in Mirotic being a player. He's one of the best players not currently in the NBA, already a star in a Euroleague that is more competitive than the NCAA. I see him being an immediate impact player for us; capable of scoring 15 ppg as a rookie if given minutes, and 18-22 ppg throughout his prime (think Peja Stojakovic type of impact). 

As far as Deng goes, there is also the option to let Deng find another team willing to pay him the $12-14M per year, then work out a sign and trade to net assets in return. Though admittedly that makes it unlikely we'll find an upgrade.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

thebizkit69u said:


> Its up to Deng obviously, but with how contracts are going nowadays its either take a lot less to play for a contender *(Monta Ellis fantastic deal with the Mavs)* or get paid to play on a bum ass team (Josh Smith 13.5 a year for Detroit).
> 
> Either way, unless the Bulls can find a legit #2 option, Deng will continue to be overvalued on the Bulls. Imagine if we had a guy who can give us 20 a night from the 5 or 4, that then makes Deng very valuable as a #3-4 option who can focus on the open jumper and defense. As is, he is a horrible #2 option.


That is the opposite of the truth. Ellis did not sign with a contender. He signed with a team that is going to be fighting to make the playoffs. He didn't sign that deal out of choice either. The dude fired his agent because no one was offering him the sort of money that he wanted. 

The Mavericks overpaid him too, he's not that impactful of a player. He went there because there was nowhere else to go and Dallas took him because there was no one else to take.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Diable said:


> That is the opposite of the truth. Ellis did not sign with a contender. He signed with a team that is going to be fighting to make the playoffs. He didn't sign that deal out of choice either. The dude fired his agent because no one was offering him the sort of money that he wanted.
> 
> The Mavericks overpaid him too, he's not that impactful of a player. He went there because there was nowhere else to go and Dallas took him because there was no one else to take.


The Mavericks were a .500 team last year and most of that was because of Dirks horrid season. If Dirk can play a notch bellow (not 2-3 notches below like last season) his All-star caliber play, I don't see why the Mavs can't be a very good team in the West. 

The Mavs did not overpay him at all, they got a guy who averaged 19ppg 6ast 4 rebound for a very reasonable contract. Our back up 4 who can't score makes 8 million a year.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

thebizkit69u said:


> Actually, Kevin Love over Boozer gets us closer to a title. ESPECIALLY against a team that's only weaknesses are outside shooting, rebounding and inside scoring. Kevin Love at least brings you the ability to shoot 3's and rebound like a machine.


So, against a Miami team that is no longer struggling to gel, and with a player who is NOT who Dirk was.. your strategy is going to be to shoot 3s on your way to a title? I find this odd. Who else has won this way other than Dirk in, gee, I don't know... forever? The three point shooting four? He's going to beat Miami? 

The PERCEPTION is he brings you closer. In actuality, he does not provide you what you need and when the smoke clears and you're locked in to him, now you're really screwed. 

I can't WAIT until Rose is up there saying "you had years to do it and you never did." I guarantee you his camp does not look at Love as a legit second star.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Rhyder said:


> This doesn't make any sense.
> 
> The Bulls have a bad contract on the roster in Boozer. Assume we have to "overpay" Kevin Love. How does replacing one bad contract with another bring us any closer to basketball hell when the player we are replacing Boozer with is better?
> 
> Who is this magical player who deserves the max and is not overpaid that would turn us into instant favorites? Cousins? lmao


But you assume that "better than Boozer" is anything close to a title. 

Committing to the wrong player will always bring you into basketball hell, because once you have a guy Miami can beat, the worst thing is to be locked into that guy. 

Your counter is, "well, the guy that Miami will beat is better than the guy that they literally beat the crap out of." 

Boozer could have been a much better player and signing him would have been a terrible idea. The problem is, you never know who will be available next year, so when you commit to Boozer, or even someone who "isn't as crappy as Boozer"... you lock yourself out of that free agent who could become available in 2015, 2016, etc. 

The best thing to do is what the Bulls SHOULD have done in 2008. Go with Rose and build up with young players around him. Maybe one of them becomes Scottie Pippen. Maybe that player like Demarcus Cousins that you trade for becomes that.

The thing is.. going with Love means you're drafting lower and out of the free agent pool. Now, you're basically saying, "if Love isn't the answer, the answer better be on a contract at 8 million per OR the 25th pick." Good luck. Now, if Love is the guy, and screams it, fine. But he's not, and if you think he is, AGAIN.. yes ONCE AGAIN.. I ask.. if he's not, and I'm TELLING YOU HE'S NOT.. after it's proven THEN will you shut up? This is an open question to all Bulls fans.

"We're contenders. I swear."
"Actually, I swear we aren't. Not because I don't love my Bulls. I'd drive 2 hours if I heard Horace Grant was making a public appearance.. it's because I don't like my intelligence insulted by someone telling me an apple is an orange. SOOO, if we don't win it, THEN will you shut up?"

Pick the assertion... I know, I know.. here is where Jnr tells me to knock it off or Dornado acts like I'm a bad guy, when really, I just have the wrong opinion for Bulls homer forums (and yes, I do acknowledge that at least this place is not realgm...)

In 2008, the Bulls should have said to Luol Deng... "here's 4 years, 32 million.. if you don't like it.. you and your agent can jump off of the Hinsdale Oasis." 

Say Deng leaves.. okay, now you're going the OKC route (go look at the salaraies Seattle/OKC paid/DID NOT PAY for the first few years of Durant's career.. I think the highest salary was either 6 or 8 for those years). You're drafting in the lottery and you have young guys Rose's age coming up with him.

But we couldn't do that. You see, EVEN WITH DERRICK ROSE.. and it's mockable that we'd ever be perennial losers past 2-3 years with him in ANY scenario, Paxson was afraid. If we don't retain Deng and Noah... "we might turn into 'Krause's Bulls!'" Oh no! Cue the doomsday music... Roll Bush and the 2008 democrats out there to pitch us another bank bail out that "has to happen! Or your kids won't get student loans! You won't be able to buy a car ... oh no."

We would have been fine and likely instead of Rose and Deng/plethora of #3s masquerading as #2s.. you would have had Rose and Derozan playing together.

Again, when your only real goal is to be a regular season legend and "better than Krause from 99-03"... this scenario can't happen.

If Deng signs that deal, great, now it's a friendly deal anyone would be happy to trade for. You can go forward with Deng.. BUT.. if someone better comes along, you can move out of Deng and into that player rather quickly. 

And, if you look at Hibbert's regular season stats.. and then his performance against Miami... I can't see how you wouldn't want Cousins. Miami is not weak against fours... they're weak against 4-5s like Duncan and at center. Or at least they will be if Oden remains status quo. 

Also, the "give me the max" thing is likely a ploy to get out of one of the worst cities to be a pro athlete in... only Jacksonville makes Sacramento look good in that regard. Plenty of players who would demand the max as a "get me out of town" ploy in Sacto would end up making less, maybe much less, in a location like Miami, Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, etc.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Hoodey said:


> So, against a Miami team that is no longer struggling to gel, and with a player who is NOT who Dirk was.. your strategy is going to be to shoot 3s on your way to a title? I find this odd. Who else has won this way other than Dirk in, gee, I don't know... forever? The three point shooting four? He's going to beat Miami?
> 
> The PERCEPTION is he brings you closer. In actuality, he does not provide you what you need and when the smoke clears and you're locked in to him, now you're really screwed.
> 
> I can't WAIT until Rose is up there saying "you had years to do it and you never did." I guarantee you his camp does not look at Love as a legit second star.


The Spurs SHOULD have won it this year. Mostly do to their 3 point shooting. The Heat have won 2 titles in a row with the 3 point shot as well. 

Listen, obviously Love doesn't win you a title on his own. But, it would be dumb to not believe that hes an improvement over Boozer. I'm with you on the need for a legit big man, but its not going to happen. The Bulls are in love with Noah, and will never take a chance on a guy like Cousins. The legit 7 foot offensive post player IS NOT COMING.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

there are very practical reasons to be against acquiring love .

1. his primary way of scoring is through pick and roll plays , but good defensive teams tend to be very good at defending that play in particular ...as a result love has not beaten a team with either boozer or bosh on it since "the decision" when both were members of the bulls and heat (0-7)

and its not a situation where he is playing great on a crap team he has shot 20-49 vs the bulls for 62 points 37 boards 3 assists in 3 games (20.7 .408 fg % 12.3 1.0

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=boshch01&p2=loveke01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=boozeca01&p2=loveke01

24-53 74 points 43 rebounds 10 assists vs the heat in 4 games( 17.5 .452 fg % 10.8 reb. 2.5 ast.

he's been good but not to the point he should sway a series

2. he is not a good defensive player, its hard to find legit title contenders who dont start plus defending big men, the only one i can think of in recent years is dirk and he is a much better defensive player than love to the point he may actually be a plus defender now. boozer's combination platter brings the bulls a lack of overwhelming offense while providing underwhelming defense is one of the reasons I have a hard time taking the bulls more seriously as true contenders

3. advance metrics pretty much put him in the class of good but not great, a decently efficient scorer , and doesn't create offense much for others , a notch below featured big men who have made the championship round in recent years

4. while clearly a better player than boozer, love wont just cost boozer but boozer and assets and its not clear he would realistically bring the bulls closer to their goals, those extra assets may be best spent elsewhere.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> 24-53 74 points 43 rebounds 10 assists vs the heat in 4 games( 17.5 .452 fg % 10.8 reb. 2.5 ast.


Don't you mean 18.5ppg? (74/4=18.5)

To be honest those numbers are pretty good, considering that Love is the T-Wolves #1 option and someone who gets the brunt of the Miami Heat defense every time he plays against them.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Don't you mean 18.5ppg? (74/4=18.5)
> 
> To be honest those numbers are pretty good, considering that Love is the T-Wolves #1 option and someone who gets the brunt of the Miami Heat defense every time he plays against them.


considering the heat's main weakness defensively is interior defense, middling efficiency at 4 or so points below his regular season average over that same time period isn't really pretty good at all, to beat any good team you have to take advantage of their weak spots and love clearly doesn' t do that .

you'll find that most teams that have any kind of success against them have the ability attack them offensively in a way the heat are clearly uncomfortable, whether its going after lebron and making him work harder on both sides of the floor than usual in the hopes he tires at the end or defers into a playmaker ( a strategy that is getting less effective year by year) 

or you attack them inside, a strategy the league hopes will continue to be successful despite the addition of greg oden.

if i were to post the numbers other top bigs in the league you you see for the most part the either play around or exceed their normal averages over the past 3 years and at some point they have won, while love is 0-4 (by an avg of 15.5 points).

the reasoning is simple the heat is really good at defending the pick and roll.

the have all the needed ingredients , they are well coached, they have agile, intelligent defenders with size to throw at you who can harass you from the 3 point line all the way to the rim. and they trap well.

the easiest way of scoring is actually very simple , post them up and space the floor the spurs almost won a title with an aging but occasionally spry duncan , and the pacers almost took them out with hibbert abusing them down low.

lamarcus aldridge, duncan, griffin and dirk are 4 top bigs

duncan 16.5 pts .497 fg 11 games 4-7 record
griffin 21.3 points .446 fg 3-1 record
aldridge 26.5 .512 fg 4 games 2-2 record
dirk 25.0 .423 fg 5-5 record

all actually avg more points than they avg in the regular season vs the rest of the league.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> considering the heat's main weakness defensively is interior defense, middling efficiency at 4 or so points below his regular season average over that same time period isn't really pretty good at all, to beat any good team you have to take advantage of their weak spots and love clearly doesn' t do that .
> 
> you'll find that most teams that have any kind of success against them have the ability attack them offensively in a way the heat are clearly uncomfortable, whether its going after lebron and making him work harder on both sides of the floor than usual in the hopes he tires at the end or defers into a playmaker ( a strategy that is getting less effective year by year)
> 
> ...


I said that the Heat's only weaknesses are 3 point shooting and an offensive post force. The problem is that the big's you mentioned (with the exception of Aldridge but the Bulls will not trade Noah for) aren't available. Love at least attacks them from the 3 point arch, and one thing that Love detractors seem to gloss over, is how playing next to an MVP caliber player like Rose could in theory make Love a much more efficient scorer.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

thebizkit69u said:


> The Spurs SHOULD have won it this year. Mostly do to their 3 point shooting. The Heat have won 2 titles in a row with the 3 point shot as well.
> 
> Listen, obviously Love doesn't win you a title on his own. But, it would be dumb to not believe that hes an improvement over Boozer. I'm with you on the need for a legit big man, but its not going to happen. The Bulls are in love with Noah, and will never take a chance on a guy like Cousins. The legit 7 foot offensive post player IS NOT COMING.


But we're talking about the "3 point shooting FOUR man as the catalyst of your offense other than Rose." Other than Dirk in a year in which Riley even said, "they better get us this year", who has done this? And Dirk is SEVERAL notches above Love.

Okay... now your second paragraph...

Forward is backwards and backwards is forward. You don't beat Miami with players the same age or close to it or even older than Rose.. you beat Miami by coming up behind them and beating them with youth... Miami already has the best "known" players. The guy who will beat them is likely thought of the same way as Scottie Pippen was in 1988. If, in 1988, you had proudly stood up and proclaimed, "the Bulls will win 6 titles and Jordan's #2 dog will be Scottie Pippen," and then gone on to talk about what Pippen became as what you expected, you would have been laughed out of the forum.

The player who COULD be Rose's #2 in a win over Miami is not thought of currently as a star.. if he was, it would be a no-brainer. Like, "Lebron has Wade and Bosh and Rose can beat him if he gets THAT guy!" If.. Kobe was still closer to his prime or if Tim Duncan was 27 and a totally different guy and he was unhappy in San Antonio ... or if David Robinson or Hakeem were in the league... then you'd say, "no need to get younger and hope you grow your own star (Cousins), because THAT guy can team with Rose to beat Lebron."

As for your declaration on Noah, I have never believed in KNOWING that an organization was doing it wrong and saying, "but, let me now agree with what they are doing and 'buy in' 1000%, because, if their actions tell me something 'ISN'T HAPPENING' simply because they are too stubborn to ALLOW the right thing to happen, then I must act like the right thing (bringing Cousins here) is the wrong thing and the wrong thing (pretending you can beat Miami with Noah) is the right thing...

Forget the Bulls and the 2011 Finals... I can't imagine that anyone here could watch:

a) The success of:

Duncan
Nowitzki
Hibbert 

v. Miami

AND

b) The utter failure of:

Perkins/Ibaka

v. Miami

Then look at Noah and say, "yes, we need THAT guy, because obviously, stylistically, HE is the 'way' to beat Miami."

Miami has one weakness. To afford the big three they had to leave no money to pay for a better defender at the 5 than Joel Anthony (Oden's leg will break in a week and he'll be out for 45 years)... 

Because of this, they have to ask Bosh to defend the five. So, if you go big at the five you can:

1) Beat Miami up
2) Get easy, high percentage buckets down low/play 90s basketball (which, just in case any of you don't get it, is the BEST basketball (84-93)
3) Force Lebron to help down low, which takes him away from the perimeter and NOW.. you can actually start to get scoring going on the outside

You put Noah out there, and now Bosh is like, "cool... not only am I not going to get exposed, I can actually pretend to guard this guy and then help on to all of the other Bulls on defense."

"Management loves Noah" - yes, that's the point.. John Paxson is a friggin idiot. I'm telling you now. 

"So don't be a fan then, leave." No, F him and F anyone who says that to me. I want my Bulls back. I don't want the 79 Fighting Irish. Paxson needs to give the team back to the fans who watched one of the greatest 10 groups of players in pro sports history, go away, and allow someone to actually build around Derrick Rose like you should.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Hoodey said:


> But we're talking about the "3 point shooting FOUR man as the catalyst of your offense other than Rose." Other than Dirk in a year in which Riley even said, "they better get us this year", who has done this? And Dirk is SEVERAL notches above Love.


Are you telling me that a starting 5 of Dirk, Terry, Butler, Marion and Chandler is significantly better than a starting 5 of Rose, Noah, Love, Deng and Jimmy Butler? Dallas had the shooting, but I would think the Bulls beat them on the defensive end. The goal of that Bulls team would be to get Lebron to either guard Love or Rose, he can't do both. 



> "So don't be a fan then, leave." No, F him and F anyone who says that to me. I want my Bulls back. I don't want the 79 Fighting Irish. Paxson needs to give the team back to the fans who watched one of the greatest 10 groups of players in pro sports history, go away, and allow someone to actually build around Derrick Rose like you should.


I'm not going to argue with you on a point that I think we ultimately both agree on. The only difference here, is that I AM 100% sure that the Bulls have made their decision and have settled on the idea that Noah is a championship caliber big. 

I KNOW all of Miami's weaknesses, I know what it would take to beat them and I'm pretty sure the Bulls know that too. I just don't think the Bulls have the TALENT in the front office to pull off some of the same deals that the Lakers know how to pull off and unlike the Lakers, the Bulls are flat out in love with their players.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

thebizkit69u said:


> Are you telling me that a starting 5 of Dirk, Terry, Butler, Marion and Chandler is significantly better than a starting 5 of Rose, Noah, Love, Deng and Jimmy Butler? Dallas had the shooting, but I would think the Bulls beat them on the defensive end. The goal of that Bulls team would be to get Lebron to either guard Love or Rose, he can't do both.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Irrelevant.

First, arguing if this bulls team would beat the 11 heat is like arguing against Jordan's bulls by citing 1990. 

Second... its not about how Chicago matches up with 11 Dallas but about who matches up better with Miami.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Hoodey said:


> Irrelevant.
> 
> First, arguing if this bulls team would beat the 11 heat is like arguing against Jordan's bulls by citing 1990.
> 
> Second... its not about how Chicago matches up with 11 Dallas but about who matches up better with Miami.


Lol, nice dodge.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> I said that the Heat's only weaknesses are 3 point shooting and an offensive post force. The problem is that the big's you mentioned (with the exception of Aldridge but the Bulls will not trade Noah for) aren't available. Love at least attacks them from the 3 point arch, and one thing that Love detractors seem to gloss over, is how playing next to an MVP caliber player like Rose could in theory make Love a much more efficient scorer.


love shot 2-6 from 3 in those 4 games so its not like he tore them up from out there 

but in truth rose as his point guard probably wont make love much more efficient , love already plays with a supposed playmaking genius in rubio and while rose is a way better player and especially scorer, he is not better at getting shots for others .

technically love isnt on the market either , this is all speculation.

but there is a trend to beating the heat with bigs and that is guys who can shoot over the top of them by being bigger like hibbert or outjumping them like blake griffin , guys who are successful with skills like spacing , guile and bball IQ such like love zach randolph, boozer are less successful.

I honestly though the bulls should have made a run at dwight howard since the lakers ultimately lost him for nothing


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> love shot 2-6 from 3 in those 4 games so its not like he tore them up from out there


Lets not forget that Dirk shot 41% from the field and 36% from the 3 point arch in the 2011 finals.



> but in truth rose as his point guard probably wont make love much more efficient , love already plays with a supposed playmaking genius in rubio and while rose is a way better player and especially scorer, he is not better at getting shots for others .


I look at it this way, Loves efficiency is higher when he plays with Rubio (25.4 ppg 46.3%fg, have never had a full season with him), a guy who can distribute but can't score. Don't you think Love can be just as efficient if he played next to a guy who can do both? Rose is not the passer that guys like Paul and Rubio are, but Rose is a very good passer and his ability to break down defenses creates shots for others. 



> technically love isnt on the market either , this is all speculation.


Agreed, but Love is probably a more realistic option for us over guys like Aldridge and Cousins.


I'm not making the argument that Love is the answer to a title, but I think people are making the mistake in thinking that a healthy Love doesn't bring the Bulls closer to that goal.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Lets not forget that Dirk shot 41% from the field and 36% from the 3 point arch in the 2011 finals.


yeah while averaging 26 points a game , and the mavs run their offense quite a bit through dirk, he forces double teams kicks the ball out it goes around the perimeter and someone gets an open shot ....love is primarily a finisher and the heat dont double him...they are actually much more likely to trap and double rubio actually 





> I look at it this way, Loves efficiency is higher when he plays with Rubio (25.4 ppg 46.3%fg, have never had a full season with him), a guy who can distribute but can't score. Don't you think Love can be just as efficient if he played next to a guy who can do both? Rose is not the passer that guys like Paul and Rubio are, but Rose is a very good passer and his ability to break down defenses creates shots for others.


it all depends on how people are used , love is basically a finisher in their offense , he doesn't create for others much , nor is he an especially high efficiency player( he takes alot of long 2 point jumpshots) , i assume because it gives them the best chance to win, dirk was the same way for alot of his career but then they let nash go and they then ran the offense alot more through him, love has not shown that kind of one on one ability and he has usually played with guys who are primarily pass first.

rose is not like that and he shouldn't be , he is a dynamic scorer and he uses his scoring ability to open up passing opportunities, meaning he would shoot the ball quite a bit in situations love would have normally received passes in minny, he may be more efficient , but its not all that likely to be significantly higher at all,using boozer as an example , he was much more efficient as a member of the jazz with deron williams than as a member of the bulls with rose, rose is a good passer but he shouldn't be confused with the best passers in the league , he still has a good bit to improve there.

this way wins 60+ games a year, it shouldn't change on the account of love and it wont 





> Agreed, but Love is probably a more realistic option for us over guys like Aldridge and Cousins.


maybe , but i feel LA is a more helpful player to the bulls goals while probably costing less to acquire(and he was rumored to be on the market)....i really like cousins talent , but he actually up until his last game against them has been putrid vs the heat , there is reason to believe he is turning the corner and becoming the player he should be and that guy is certainly worth looking into acquiring, but it looks like they are beginning to realize what they have in him , they are building around him.




> I'm not making the argument that Love is the answer to a title, but I think people are making the mistake in thinking that a healthy Love doesn't bring the Bulls closer to that goal.


in a vacuum yes , if boozer were traded for love of course he would bring them closer...but in reality its not a secret love is better and younger while being paid roughly the same amount of money, it would never be a even up trade, love would cost assets i feel could be better used elsewhere, so i simply wouldn't bother he plays a style of game that doesn't justify what his cost would be, if the goal is to win a title.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> yeah while averaging 26 points a game , and the mavs run their offense quite a bit through dirk, he forces double teams kicks the ball out it goes around the perimeter and someone gets an open shot ....love is primarily a finisher and the heat dont double him...they are actually much more likely to trap and double rubio actually


Actually, Dirk din't get doubled much either. The reason being is that hes not the prototypical big that plays in the post all the time. Double teaming a perimeter big is just begging the opposing team to kill you on the boards. But, I do agree about doubling the 1, the Heat tried that against the Mavs but if you remember, JJ Barrea had a hell of series in breaking down that defense and Terry shot over the double a lot. 

My point being, if the Heat choose to double Rose all game long, I think Love is capable of hurting them on the boards or with his perimeter shooting. Also, don't forget that we wont need Love to take every single shot, the guy can be a deadly #2 option.




> it all depends on how people are used , love is basically a finisher in their offense , he doesn't create for others much , nor is he an especially high efficiency player( he takes alot of long 2 point jumpshots) , i assume because it gives them the best chance to win, dirk was the same way for alot of his career but then they let nash go and they then ran the offense alot more through him, love has not shown that kind of one on one ability and he has usually played with guys who are primarily pass first.


If your best player is a high offensive output PG like Rose, don't you want to have the BEST re-bounder in the game?! Nobody is asking Rose to take a backseat to Love, Love gives you all the rebounds that Noah would give you, the only difference is that Love puts them back in the basket and is capable of giving you 30-20 on any given night. 

Also, I don't get how people on here act like Love is a finished product yet the same people on here still hold out hope that Noah and Taj Gibson (both older than Love mind you)are one day going to be productive offensive players.




> this way wins 60+ games a year, it shouldn't change on the account of love and it wont


Dude, they only won 60+ games ONCE.




> maybe , but i feel LA is a more helpful player to the bulls goals while probably costing less to acquire(and he was rumored to be on the market)....i really like cousins talent , but he actually up until his last game against them has been putrid vs the heat , there is reason to believe he is turning the corner and becoming the player he should be and that guy is certainly worth looking into acquiring, but it looks like they are beginning to realize what they have in him , they are building around him.


My first choice would obviously be LA and if I really wanted to minimize the cost of what we would have to give up, I would choose Cousins over Love as well. But, there have been 0 signs that the Bulls are serious about making a move for those guys. 





> in a vacuum yes , if boozer were traded for love of course he would bring them closer...but in reality its not a secret love is better and younger while being paid roughly the same amount of money, it would never be a even up trade, love would cost assets i feel could be better used elsewhere, so i simply wouldn't bother he plays a style of game that doesn't justify what his cost would be, if the goal is to win a title.


This is where having a competent front office wins you titles. Would trading Noah, Butler and Mirotic for Love win you a title? Probably not. The goal for this front office would be to make the trade "YOU WANT". Miami basically got one of the greatest players of all time for Draft picks, LA gets whoever they want for scraps. Love has shown interest in playing with Rose, why not built a package that basically tells the Wolves, "Its either this, or lose him for nothing."

The Bulls need to sell high, there is no guarantee that Butler will be anything more than a mediocre player, there is no guarantee that the Bobcats pick will be of any real value in 2016. I would even go as far and say that there is no guarantee that Noah is ever going to be healthy again.


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## Firefight (Jul 2, 2010)

Kind of off topic, but I think Demarcus Cousins is a poster on these message boards. I've never seen so much love for a guy that has won nothing and has a bad rap... 

I like Cousins, he's skilled, blah blah... but he isn't bringing us a championship, and most likely no one else... But, wow, guys here absolutely love him, regardless of topic... Everything ends up with a post, "well, if we had Cousins we'd win..."


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Actually, Dirk din't get doubled much either. The reason being is that hes not the prototypical big that plays in the post all the time. Double teaming a perimeter big is just begging the opposing team to kill you on the boards. But, I do agree about doubling the 1, the Heat tried that against the Mavs but if you remember, JJ Barrea had a hell of series in breaking down that defense and Terry shot over the double a lot.


after dirk makes a couple they double him , because its not a shot they can really stop him from taking 



> My point being, if the Heat choose to double Rose all game long, I think Love is capable of hurting them on the boards or with his perimeter shooting. Also, don't forget that we wont need Love to take every single shot, the guy can be a deadly #2 option.


the heat dont double all game long , just in spurts ...the point of all this is i dont think he is all that deadly as a #2 because he hasn't proven you can run an offense through him nor has he been terribly efficient as a finisher ( his current role mostly) you can argue about it til you are blue in the face but i am just using cold hard numbers to back up my assertion 






> If your best player is a high offensive output PG like Rose, don't you want to have the BEST re-bounder in the game?! Nobody is asking Rose to take a backseat to Love, Love gives you all the rebounds that Noah would give you, the only difference is that Love puts them back in the basket and is capable of giving you 30-20 on any given night.
> 
> Also, I don't get how people on here act like Love is a finished product yet the same people on here still hold out hope that Noah and Taj Gibson (both older than Love mind you)are one day going to be productive offensive players.


the bulls are already the best rebounding team in the league, so how much help is really on that front?

he's been in the league 5 years its highly unlikely he is going to start learning new things , at best he gets better at shooting , but after a player is out of his mid 20's the rebounding #s tend to go down along with his athleticism, the avg age of the league's leading rebounder has been about 24 for the past 6 or so years .

you have never heard me hold out for taj or noah suddenly becoming scorers , they are what they are .






> Dude, they only won 60+ games ONCE.


technically yes but in the strike shortened year they were 50-16 .758 in the previous year they were 62-20 .756 its basically the same winning % and this past season derrick didn't play, i didn't see any reason why they would have won less if he did.






> My first choice would obviously be LA and if I really wanted to minimize the cost of what we would have to give up, I would choose Cousins over Love as well. But, there have been 0 signs that the Bulls are serious about making a move for those guys.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i agree with you, i certainly wouldn't mind love on the roster but for a reasonable cost , i sincerely believe you pay players for what you feel they will bring to you and basically the bulls can lose to the heat without him and i dont see his acquisition alone changing that , for whatever reason the front office cant get players to want to play in chicago for a discount , or make trades where they pay pennies on the dollar for good talent. which puts them in the position of taking chances on talent, which they seemingly wont do.

but they do have to do something , there is nothing worse than wasting the opportunity at a title because a team wont take chances.


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