# Nuggets win with Karl??????????????



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*

The more and more Karl opens his mouth, the more I get sick of him. He's such a con artist, constantly twisting the story to make himself seem like the victim. His ego is big as hell, and it's about time people starting admitting it. All this, not to mention his despicable personell management, in-game adjustments, and rotations. 

I'm starting to wonder if we can win with him here.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



RoddneyThaRippa said:


> The more and more Karl opens his mouth, the more I get sick of him. He's such a con artist, constantly twisting the story to make himself seem like the victim. His ego is big as hell, and it's about time people starting admitting it. All this, not to mention his despicable personell management, in-game adjustments, and rotations.
> 
> I'm starting to wonder if we can win with him here.


All of this could be said about most NBA head coaches in one fashion or another. The difference is not all of the NBA coaches can win. George Karl certainly has proven he is capable of being a winning head coach. Let's give the man some time to work his magic for the Nuggets.


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



23AJ said:


> All of this could be said about most NBA head coaches in one fashion or another. The difference is not all of the NBA coaches can win. George Karl certainly has proven he is capable of being a winning head coach. Let's give the man some time to work his magic for the Nuggets.


I'm less concerned about his coaching than I am about his GMing


----------



## pac4eva5 (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*

i think all the off season moves have been GREAT!

so why are we still crying cpaw?


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



pac4eva5 said:


> i think all the off season moves have been GREAT!
> 
> so why are we still crying cpaw?


Yes, crying, that's what I'm doing. I have tears streaming down my face as I type this.

The JR Smith trade was great, even if he doesn't turn it around and on paper trading a player Karl wasn't going to use for a player he might use works. However, there is still more work to be done to the roster as the Nuggets would be starting the season with JR & YD at the SG right now.

These are my concerns
1) Karl wasn't a good GM or what ever his title was in Milwaukee and that worries me about the Nuggets since he is de facto in charge.

2) Who else besides Kenyon and Ruben is on Karl's chemestry hit list


----------



## pac4eva5 (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



cpawfan said:


> Yes, crying, that's what I'm doing. I have tears streaming down my face as I type this.
> 
> The JR Smith trade was great, even if he doesn't turn it around and on paper trading a player Karl wasn't going to use for a player he might use works. However, there is still more work to be done to the roster as the Nuggets would be starting the season with JR & YD at the SG right now.
> 
> ...


i agree there still needs to be more work done at the SG spot. JR is gonna be a good starter for us i have no doubt, but thats all more o project in the works. we still need a vet SG to start in front of JR. but whats with the negativety? there WILL be another deal for a sg. dont act like the nuggets are done...

and karl is not the gm lol! i dont know why u are making this crap up. warkentien and bearup have been running the show. with some help from karl? sure! why is that a bad thing? a lot of people (me included) have been highly critical of this front office over the summer, but from the shape of things, the clear goal is to make the nuggets better and that is EXACTLY what they are doing! u cant be upset about that (unless u are a cincy bearcats fan). ohhhh, now it makes sense why ur so upset, lol...

do u guys really see all these moves being made if kiki was still here? i dont.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



23AJ said:


> All of this could be said about most NBA head coaches in one fashion or another. The difference is not all of the NBA coaches can win. George Karl certainly has proven he is capable of being a winning head coach. Let's give the man some time to work his magic for the Nuggets.


He has had the talent to win. He is a good coach, but let's not overstate it. The Sonics could've won a championship, and the Nuggets were in shambles last season. I just hate his demeanor. You can tell he'll lie to someone straight up in their face and think nothing of it.


----------



## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



pac4eva5 said:


> do u guys really see all these moves being made if kiki was still here? i dont.


i dont miss kiki either


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



RoddneyThaRippa said:


> He has had the talent to win. He is a good coach, but let's not overstate it. The Sonics could've won a championship, and the Nuggets were in shambles last season. I just hate his demeanor. You can tell he'll lie to someone straight up in their face and think nothing of it.


I don't know the man. To call someone a liar with out first hand knowledge of the situation is unfair in my opinion. Why have preconceived notions about people we don't even know.

However the idea that talent wins is true to a degree. You still need a good coach to make sure the talent works together, and reaches their potential. There have been plenty of coaches who failed at doing this. Karl IMO only had one real melt down while coaching a talented team in his career, otherwise he's done an excellent job. He did get a very talented group of players to the finals by the way. However they lost to the GOAT MJ. Nobody beat MJ in the finals nobody.

As I was saying, just give Karl sometime. I believe this season is going to be special for the Nuggets.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



nbanoitall said:


> i dont miss kiki either


Kiki did some good things here. IMO he served the Nuggets well, but it was time for him to go. Hopefully we continue to make good solid deals to help the Nuggets this season, and into the future.


----------



## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*

PG: Andre Miller...Earl Boykins
SG: J.R. Smith...Julius Hodge...Yakhouba Diawara
SF: Carmelo Anthony...Eduardo Najera...Linas Kleiza
PF: Kenyon Martin...Nene...Joe Smith
C: Marcus Camby...Jamal Sampson

IMO, Martin will surely be gone by the start of the season. The Nuggets didn't sign Nene for $60 million to come off of the bench, and with Joe Smith (and possibly Reggie Evans) behind him, they have enough depth at PF to lose him. However, unless they get a player like Bonzi Wells, or ship Martin away for more than he's worth, I don't see how this team will make the playoffs next season.


----------



## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



Damian Necronamous said:


> PG: Andre Miller...Earl Boykins
> SG: J.R. Smith...Julius Hodge...Yakhouba Diawara
> SF: Carmelo Anthony...Eduardo Najera...Linas Kleiza
> PF: Kenyon Martin...Nene...Joe Smith
> ...


i hope you are right about Martin... its nice to finally see posters and fans realizing how much Melo has to do in order for this team to be in the playoffs.

However your comment about not making the playoffs is wrong. The team got better over the summer. Kenyon and Nene should be healthy and ready to go next season. Plus we move disgruntled Ruben Patterson for Joe Smith. And JR Smith is added. Plus Dermarr johnson will be back likely at the vet min as well. 

Plus in the playoffs boykins was just coming off injury as well. The one thing I know JR Smith can do is hit outside shots... and we need that.

Plus at some point this year Kmart will be dealt and that should bring in wings and hopefully a first round pick for 07 (i really would like to nab one in a trade).

This team is in better shape than last year.


----------



## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*

Reggie Evans and Martin are as good as gone.

If the Nuggets are serious about getting Wells, I think Evans is the piece to use, not Martin - the reason being, Martin needs to start, wherever he is - and the Kings have SAR.

Evans and someone for Wells, unless the Kings want to move Kenny Thomas (in which case Martin is gonna have to be the other piece, because Thomas and Wells will have quite a high combined salary)

It's looking like a 3 team deal would be easiest, to get Wells.

A stronger backup at center isn't really needed, I think Camby, Nene and Smith is a strong enough frontcourt rotation.

But there doesn't really seem to be room there for Evans and Martin.

Does anyone see Boykins being packaged with either Martin or Evans to go somewhere?


----------



## jericho (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



23AJ said:


> Kiki did some good things here. IMO he served the Nuggets well, but it was time for him to go. Hopefully we continue to make good solid deals to help the Nuggets this season, and into the future.


Kiki did some GREAT things, in my opinion. His first couple years on the job he was widely rated as a certified genius on this board. Let's not forget what a mess the Nuggets were financially and talent-wise when he took over. But I think the Kenyon deal was the beginning of the end for Kiki. Denver gave up too much for him (Kiki's fault), and the guy has been hit by injuries (not Kiki's fault, but not a surprise...again, we gave up too much for a player at his level with a history of injury).


----------



## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



jericho said:


> Kiki did some GREAT things, in my opinion. His first couple years on the job he was widely rated as a certified genius on this board. Let's not forget what a mess the Nuggets were financially and talent-wise when he took over. But I think the Kenyon deal was the beginning of the end for Kiki. Denver gave up too much for him (Kiki's fault), and the guy has been hit by injuries (not Kiki's fault, but not a surprise...again, we gave up too much for a player at his level with a history of injury).


kiki knows how to rebuild teams, not turn young "on the rise" teams into contenders. he intially pulled some good moves, then it became rather obvious that he was out of his league. From 2004 until August everyone knew the Nuggets needed a shooting guard. Kiki leaves... in comes JR Smith... and hopefully another wing in the eventual Kenyon deal


----------



## pac4eva5 (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*

nbanoitall said it best. kiki did a GREAT job getting us out of the trenches. he got rid of a lot of HUGE contracts and that was good. but he couldnt take us to the next level...


----------



## pac4eva5 (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



Damian Necronamous said:


> PG: Andre Miller...Earl Boykins
> SG: J.R. Smith...Julius Hodge...Yakhouba Diawara
> SF: Carmelo Anthony...Eduardo Najera...Linas Kleiza
> PF: Kenyon Martin...Nene...Joe Smith
> C: Marcus Camby...Jamal Sampson


ummm, no.

PG: andre, boykins, hodge
SG: JR, diawara, (possibly DJ)
SF: melo, kleiza, najera
PF: kenyon, joe smith
C: camby, nene, sampson



> IMO, Martin will surely be gone by the start of the season. The Nuggets didn't sign Nene for $60 million to come off of the bench, and with Joe Smith (and possibly Reggie Evans) behind him, they have enough depth at PF to lose him.


agreed. k-mart is as good as gone, and yes, evans will be in a nuggets jersey, just watch 



> However, unless they get a player like Bonzi Wells, or ship Martin away for more than he's worth, I don't see how this team will make the playoffs next season.


:laugh: we wont make the playoffs??? gimme a break...

i do agree tho i would like a vet shooter to start at the SG spot for now. bonzi for one year at 3 million would be a steal.


----------



## pac4eva5 (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



different_13 said:


> Reggie Evans and Martin are as good as gone.
> 
> If the Nuggets are serious about getting Wells, I think Evans is the piece to use, not Martin - the reason being, Martin needs to start, wherever he is - and the Kings have SAR.
> 
> ...


bonzi isnt getting traded lol. no chance. kings offered him money, he turned it down. there wont be trading. kings already have 2 stud young guys at the 2. it wont hurt them if bonzi is let go.

i pray that nobody is dumb enough to have to lose pieces to get bonzi. just wait for him and u can sign him w/o losing anybody! 

also, unless denver can aquire bonzi for the right price (1 year, 3 million) evans will ba a nugget. im confident. the guy is the best rebounder in basketball, period! and he's GREAT trade bait! this is EXACTLY like the watson deal. nuggets will resign him


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



jericho said:


> Kiki did some GREAT things, in my opinion. His first couple years on the job he was widely rated as a certified genius on this board. Let's not forget what a mess the Nuggets were financially and talent-wise when he took over. But I think the Kenyon deal was the beginning of the end for Kiki. Denver gave up too much for him (Kiki's fault), and the guy has been hit by injuries (not Kiki's fault, but not a surprise...again, we gave up too much for a player at his level with a history of injury).


True, however picking up a big time free agent like K-Mart at the time was very exciting. To bad things haven't worked out better.


----------



## pac4eva5 (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



23AJ said:


> True, however picking up a big time free agent like K-Mart at the time was very exciting. To bad things haven't worked out better.


how many people were that excited? we coulda gotten k for less too but kiki got desperate and we lost all those picks...

i wanted arenas or manu


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



Damian Necronamous said:


> PG: Andre Miller...Earl Boykins
> SG: J.R. Smith...Julius Hodge...Yakhouba Diawara
> SF: Carmelo Anthony...Eduardo Najera...Linas Kleiza
> PF: Kenyon Martin...Nene...Joe Smith
> ...


Not make the playoffs?!?!? How so? How else would be us out for the eighth spot? New Orleans, Houston, Sacramento? I don't think so. 

For that matter, who is going to beat us out in the division? The division is terribly weak, and there is no way the Nuggets won't win it. 

Can we get deep into the playoffs? I have no idea. I'd have to say no at this point, based on our play last year. But making it to the playoffs is a complete lock, without Bonzi Wells and without getting something in return for Kenyon. The West isn't *that* tough, anymore, and the Nuggets aren't that bad.


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



pac4eva5 said:


> i agree there still needs to be more work done at the SG spot. JR is gonna be a good starter for us i have no doubt, but thats all more o project in the works. we still need a vet SG to start in front of JR. but whats with the negativety? there WILL be another deal for a sg. dont act like the nuggets are done...
> 
> and karl is not the gm lol! i dont know why u are making this crap up. warkentien and bearup have been running the show. with some help from karl? sure! why is that a bad thing? a lot of people (me included) have been highly critical of this front office over the summer, but from the shape of things, the clear goal is to make the nuggets better and that is EXACTLY what they are doing! u cant be upset about that (unless u are a cincy bearcats fan). ohhhh, now it makes sense why ur so upset, lol...
> 
> do u guys really see all these moves being made if kiki was still here? i dont.


Karl isn't the GM, but he clearly has the greatest amount of influence on personnel moves. I've stated more than once in this forum that I expected Ruben to be gone because of his relationship with Karl at the end of the season and the same with Kenyon. Ruben's trade value isn't that high and the Nuggets only got Joe Smith because the Bucks called and offered the trade.

Until the Nuggets, as you say are done, they have just changed SG problems. With Buck and Ruben gone, they lost the only two players on the roster that could defend the position. JR was suppose to be the shooter to augment them. YD certainly has promise as a defender and a good addition to the position, but personally, I'm not ready to count on him.

Karl's track record as a GM isn't good and I'm concerned about his great amount of influence on the Nuggets because absolute control over a basketball team generally isn't a good thing.

Kiki certainly would have made the trade for JR since he has wanted him since the 2004 draft. Now one could argue that he would have given up more than the Nuggets did  The Joe Smith for Ruben deal, I'm not sure what Kiki would have done.

Right now, I don't see the Nuggets as any better than they were last season. However, they have managed to get rid of one of the players Karl wants gone.


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



23AJ said:


> I don't know the man. To call someone a liar with out first hand knowledge of the situation is unfair in my opinion. Why have preconceived notions about people we don't even know.


Reread the 3 part series the Denver Post did on last season. Karl clearly isn't honest with the media. I'm not saying he fibs all of the time, but clearly, he doesn't tell the whole truth.


----------



## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*

I love Joe Smith as a player, good rebounder very consistant 16 foot jumper, not the best defender you will ever see. Problem with Joe is he just cant stay healthy, he even had a reduced role last year and still missed half of the season. For the bucks i am intrigued by this deal, after watching Bobby Simmons last year i can see why the bucks made this trade, he fits a major defensive void that the team had, the apparently had an opening for a sex offender. Not the type of personality to go with "good guys" like Redd, Charlie V and Bogut.


----------



## Timmons (May 25, 2005)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



cpawfan said:


> Yes, crying, that's what I'm doing. I have tears streaming down my face as I type this.


 :laugh: :rotf: :rofl: Now that's comedy!!!


----------



## Timmons (May 25, 2005)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



nbanoitall said:


> kiki knows how to rebuild teams, not turn young "on the rise" teams into contenders. he intially pulled some good moves, then it became rather obvious that he was out of his league. From 2004 until August everyone knew the Nuggets needed a shooting guard. Kiki leaves... in comes JR Smith... and hopefully another wing in the eventual Kenyon deal


Good call on Kiki. I've been saying that for awhile about him.

Gutted the team better than anyone could have...rebuilt it like crap.

*Roster Should have been:* 
*PG:* Gilbert Arenas (FA - could not get Kroenke to commit to him and that's Kiki's job) / Earl Boykins
*SG:* Caron Butler (Drafted Nicholas Skitishvili instead at #5) / JR Smith / Julius Hodge
*SF:* Carmelo Anthony (fell in Kiki's lap, he tried trading up w/ Detroit for Darko until Stern called the pick) / Linas Kleiza
*PF:* Amare Stoudamire (drafted Nene instead at #7) / Joe Smith
*C:* Marcus Camby / Jamal Sampson

Totally not what the roster probably would have looked like, but definitley could have. Just proves that Kiki missed the boat big time a bunch of times imo. You can second guess the guy all you want and no he's not the only one to blame, but damn team would have been crazy good.


----------



## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*

Bill Walker top 15 (nbadraftnet has him at 9 next year)
Kevin Durant top 3
Thaddeus Young top 5 (nba draft net has him at 3 next year_
Brandan Wright top 10 (nbadraftnet has him at 7)
Mayo top 3
Marcus Williams top 15 (depends on when he comes out)
Alexis Ajinca top 20 (depends on when he comes out)
Rahshon Clark not considered a first rounder
Richard Roby likely first rounder
cartier martin not considered a first rounder
JR Giddens god only knows

went back and edited this to show not all players i listed were top 3 or top 5 picks


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



Timmons said:


> Good call on Kiki. I've been saying that for awhile about him.
> 
> Gutted the team better than anyone could have...rebuilt it like crap.
> 
> ...



People always complain about not picking Amare, but he wasn't on option at five, or seven. Hindsight is always 20/20 but Amare was considered too raw to take at those spots.


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



nbanoitall said:


> Bill Walker, Kevin Durant, Thaddeus Young, Brandan Wright (with some motivate and a little more muscle mass potiental is unlimited) Mayo, Marcus Williams,


It isn't hard to list top 7 picks out of the next two drafts


----------



## pac4eva5 (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



Timmons said:


> Good call on Kiki. I've been saying that for awhile about him.
> 
> Gutted the team better than anyone could have...rebuilt it like crap.
> 
> ...


oh thats bull****! no way would we have been a #3 pick if we had arenas, butler, OR amare...

and im willing to bet we'd be a BILLION over the cap with that roster so thats not fair either. and i believe wagner would have been the guy if skita was gone too...


----------



## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



cpawfan said:


> It isn't hard to list top 7 picks out of the next two drafts


which is why its very good to have pics, much more valuable than kmart


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



nbanoitall said:


> which is why its very good to have pics, much more valuable than kmart


You aren't making sense

1) All of the picks traded away have already been picked and were used on Graham, Marcus Williams & Balkman
2) None were top 7 selections


----------



## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



cpawfan said:


> You aren't making sense
> 
> 1) All of the picks traded away have already been picked and were used on Graham, Marcus Williams & Balkman
> 2) None were top 7 selections


not making sense? it is possible to trade into the lotto even if we are not a lotto team. packaging a lower first round pick with something else could trip another teams trigger. You can in fact move up in a draft, I know its confusing, but trust me it happens


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



pac4eva5 said:


> how many people were that excited? we coulda gotten k for less too but kiki got desperate and we lost all those picks...
> 
> i wanted arenas or manu


How many people were excited ? Everyone was! K-Mart was incredible for the Nets. Kenyon had a good post up game with the Nets, that seems to have vanished since he's been with the Nuggets. Kenyon use to dominate guys like Kurt Thomas. What happened to Kenyon is that his injury truly hit when he came to Denver, and it's been down hill for him ever since. However with out that injury Kenyon would be out there dominating the basketball court. It's a shame really what's happened to K-Mart.


----------



## pac4eva5 (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



 23AJ said:


> How many people were excited ? Everyone was! K-Mart was incredible for the Nets. Kenyon had a good post up game with the Nets, that seems to have vanished since he's been with the Nuggets. Kenyon use to dominate guys like Kurt Thomas. What happened to Kenyon is that his injury truly hit when he came to Denver, and it's been down hill for him ever since. However with out that injury Kenyon would be out there dominating the basketball court. It's a shame really what's happened to K-Mart.


we already had nene and camby! and there were STILL holes at PG and SG that til this day still havent been fixed...

not to mention what we gave up for K was unnecessary...


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



nbanoitall said:


> not making sense? it is possible to trade into the lotto even if we are not a lotto team. packaging a lower first round pick with something else could trip another teams trigger. You can in fact move up in a draft, I know its confusing, but trust me it happens


Was any team able to trade up for any of the top 4 picks in the 2003 draft? That is similar to what you are talking about doing.

Nobody but Zeke is trading away 2007 lottery picks for 2005 & 2006 draft picks. So while it is possible to trade up into the lottery, the drafts you are talking about it isn't going to happen with the assets you are talking about.

Your theory doesn't match reality


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



pac4eva5 said:


> we already had nene and camby! and there were STILL holes at PG and SG that til this day still havent been fixed...
> 
> not to mention what we gave up for K was unnecessary...


Regardless of the fact we had Nene, and Camby. As I recall Camby was coming off another injury prone season. So let's not put all our stock into that argument. My biggest point though was that myself, and many Nuggets fans in CO, and across the nation were very excited when we got K-Mart, and believed he could hep propel us to another level. As for our Shooting guards at the time, we were actually solid at the time with Jon Barry, and Voshon Lenard. However Jon Barry left the Nuggets for the Rockets the following season. And Voshon got injured the start of that same season. It was the beginning of the down fall at our SG position IMO. Besides I don't think anybody ever thought that K-Mart was our end all be all answer to make the Nuggets a complete team, however we were excited about the signing, and believe he would help us raise the Nuggets game to another level.


----------



## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



cpawfan said:


> Was any team able to trade up for any of the top 4 picks in the 2003 draft? That is similar to what you are talking about doing.
> 
> Nobody but Zeke is trading away 2007 lottery picks for 2005 & 2006 draft picks. So while it is possible to trade up into the lottery, the drafts you are talking about it isn't going to happen with the assets you are talking about.
> 
> Your theory doesn't match reality


i didnt list all top four or top 3 picks. alexis and walker arent top 3 picks. i did list a bunch of lotto and later round picks. and some lottos like mayo and wright etc could be top 3. i listed guys that will likely go all over the first round, and some in the 2nd round.

my theory isnt on any particular trade or package. the only thing Im basically saying is having 3 draft picks is way better than having Kmart. How to trade or draft is another story. But I assure you I did list guys that will go outside of the lotto. And some that will fall down in the lotto (making a team that has a mid first round pick because they where one a done in the playoffs not that far from the lotto).

my theory is very very simple and very real. draft picks are better than kmart. and i think you basically know this (seeing as i didnt propose a particular trade). Whenever Kmarts name comes up you tend to say nothing makes any sense etc etc. For a guy that thinks George Karl has an agenda, are you sure you dont?


----------



## pac4eva5 (Dec 29, 2005)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



23AJ said:


> Regardless of the fact we had Nene, and Camby. As I recall Camby was coming off another injury prone season. So let's not put all our stock into that argument. My biggest point though was that myself, and many Nuggets fans in CO, and across the nation were very excited when we got K-Mart, and believed he could hep propel us to another level. As for our Shooting guards at the time, we were actually solid at the time with Jon Barry, and Voshon Lenard. However Jon Barry left the Nuggets for the Rockets the following season. And Voshon got injured the start of that same season. It was the beginning of the down fall at our SG position IMO. Besides I don't think anybody ever thought that K-Mart was our end all be all answer to make the Nuggets a complete team, however we were excited about the signing, and believe he would help us raise the Nuggets game to another level.


jon barry = solid???? lol...sure...

there were other holes, and there were quite a few BIG name free agents...kobe, arenas, manu, etc...yet we had to throw every goddam pick to trade for k??? stupid move and completely not worth it...then AND now!


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



nbanoitall said:


> i didnt list all top four or top 3 picks. alexis and walker arent top 3 picks. i did list a bunch of lotto and later round picks. and some lottos like mayo and wright etc could be top 3. i listed guys that will likely go all over the first round, and some in the 2nd round.
> 
> my theory isnt on any particular trade or package. the only thing Im basically saying is having 3 draft picks is way better than having Kmart. How to trade or draft is another story. But I assure you I did list guys that will go outside of the lotto. And some that will fall down in the lotto (making a team that has a mid first round pick because they where one a done in the playoffs not that far from the lotto).
> 
> my theory is very very simple and very real. draft picks are better than kmart. and i think you basically know this (seeing as i didnt propose a particular trade). Whenever Kmarts name comes up you tend to say nothing makes any sense etc etc. For a guy that thinks George Karl has an agenda, are you sure you dont?


Lets try this again. You listed a lot of top 7 guys, as I highlighted before. Yes you have some players that would be later selections, but you also listed a lot of unatainable players. My point about the 2003 draft was that top of the draft was amazing and I just happened to use the first 4 picks as an example. The top of the 2007 and 2008 drafts are lining up to be much better than 2005 or 2006 and much deeper than 2003.

Your theory has a lot of holes in it based upon the big assumptions you're making. Taking 3 picks from the 2005 & 2006 drafts and trying to turn those into 2007 & 2008 picks isn't a very viable idea. Sure you can find all kinds of previous trades that have happened in past drafts, but that doesn't apply when looking at 2007 & 2008. The *value* you are attempting to place on the 3 picks that were traded away is way off from reality. 

You are confusing me stating that a lot of your comments don't make sense to it having anything to do with Kenyon. 

Nowhere have I ever said it made sense for Kiki to trade away the 3 draft picks and this is because he never utilized the 2 weeks that it bought him in the free agent market. Instead of waiting out the Nets, he got nervous and pulled the trigger on the S&T. However, lets consider a few things when talking about the value of these picks.

1) The Nuggets were convinced they were headed in the right direction for a championship and already had young players Melo and Nene

2) The Nuggets had 3 picks in the 2005 Draft and a surplus in 2006

3) Kiki didn't want to add more rookies to the team, instead he wanted to veterans.

What the draft picks should have been used for is other trades to bolster the team, i.e. trading for a vet shooting guard.


----------



## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*

What the draft picks should have been used for is other trades to bolster the team, i.e. trading for a vet shooting guard.[/QUOTE]

thats your opinion and not everyones, with the young age of our superstar, carmelo... you can go back and read my posts I actually was ok with trading Camby (with his value being high) for a younger players to put around Carmelo. 

My reasoning being guys like Dre and Camby and other guys around or over 30 wont be around (or in their primes) when Carmelo is.

Now Camby and Melo are the guys making us a playoff team thats granted, but at some point in the next couple of years Camby wont be there.

At the time I proposed deals... my favorite being a trade up to get ben gordon... and at the time we did have plenty of pieces to do that deal. Several teams would have listened to that trade. And several teams were willing to give out future first round draft picks too, like say the Orlando Magic.

and i went back and edited my last post to show the ratings currently for the players I listed. They range from top 3 to 2nd rounders


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



nbanoitall said:


> thats your opinion and not everyones, with the young age of our superstar, carmelo... you can go back and read my posts I actually was ok with trading Camby (with his value being high) for a younger players to put around Carmelo.
> 
> My reasoning being guys like Dre and Camby and other guys around or over 30 wont be around (or in their primes) when Carmelo is.
> 
> Now Camby and Melo are the guys making us a playoff team thats granted, but at some point in the next couple of years Camby wont be there.


My point is that the direction of the team clearly wasn't to add more youth. Ownerships mandate was to go deeper into the playoffs and a young team doesn't do that by adding more rookies. 



> and i went back and edited my last post to show the ratings currently for the players I listed. They range from top 3 to 2nd rounders


I saw your list and some of your top X areas are wrong. Williams & Wright are top 7 picks and Walker is top 10 at worst. The bottom line is that the 2007 & 2008 drafts are much better from top to bottom than 2005 & 2006 and yes it is a nice idea to attempt to get more first round picks in those drafts. However, the Nuggets didn't have the tools to that with the picks you are talking about.


----------



## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



cpawfan said:


> I saw your list and some of your top X areas are wrong. Williams & Wright are top 7 picks and Walker is top 10 at worst. The bottom line is that the 2007 & 2008 drafts are much better from top to bottom than 2005 & 2006 and yes it is a nice idea to attempt to get more first round picks in those drafts. However, the Nuggets didn't have the tools to that with the picks you are talking about.


you can say that about so many people, if they all decide to come out in 07, that somebody has to drop, thats why you leave some wiggle room.

If your really telling me denver wont be able to trade or position themselves to get one good prospect in 07 or 08 then I cant wait until Kmart gets traded so you can follow the bandwagon whereever the hell he gets shipped too. because I'm a nuggets fan, and I believe we can get someone. I want Young personally, and I do realize that is a big long shot, but some of those guys have to be attainable somehow.


----------



## Banjoriddim (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



cpawfan said:


> My point is that the direction of the team clearly wasn't to add more youth. Ownerships mandate was to go deeper into the playoffs and a young team doesn't do that by adding more rookies.
> 
> 
> 
> I saw your list and some of your top X areas are wrong. Williams & Wright are top 7 picks and Walker is top 10 at worst. The bottom line is that the 2007 & 2008 drafts are much better from top to bottom than 2005 & 2006 and yes it is a nice idea to attempt to get more first round picks in those drafts. However, the Nuggets didn't have the tools to that with the picks you are talking about.


I agree (though your reasoning was clear and logical in all recent posts) also after Skita affair and considering options and draft depht it wasnt bad idea to try to get All-Star in S&T (though I felt that Nuggets overpayed him from the start... as of picks it never was my concern) instead of having rookies now I agree you ****** up with K-Mart but... I don't agree that Nuggets had that much better options if they wanted to improve. Picks in 15-20's hold little value and if people don't agree with that explain what the hell Phx has done (gave up 9 (?)th pick for risk faild and well gave up pick again.


----------



## Banjoriddim (Aug 14, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



nbanoitall said:


> you can say that about so many people, if they all decide to come out in 07, that somebody has to drop, thats why you leave some wiggle room.
> 
> If your really telling me denver wont be able to trade or position themselves to get one good prospect in 07 or 08 then I cant wait until Kmart gets traded so you can follow the bandwagon whereever the hell he gets shipped too. because I'm a nuggets fan, and I believe we can get someone. I want Young personally, and I do realize that is a big long shot, but some of those guys have to be attainable somehow.


Well Phx have gave up TWO picks for basickly nothing do you belive they didn't wan't to turn them int something good in future? Geting pick next year is really hard... this draft is good an basickly overhyped to get something good (btw if you are really lucky) you have to give something good (huge risk) also lets take Al potential deal to Indiana: Indy is not willing to give even protected pick in next years draft though it won't be high but is willing to part with future picks (and Al was 18-19 pts per game guy) so 2007 pick is something that isn't worth tradeing for since everybody wants to have good pick in that draft and picks cost too much end of story.


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



nbanoitall said:


> you can say that about so many people, if they all decide to come out in 07, that somebody has to drop, thats why you leave some wiggle room.
> 
> If your really telling me denver wont be able to trade or position themselves to get one good prospect in 07 or 08 then I cant wait until Kmart gets traded so you can follow the bandwagon whereever the hell he gets shipped too. because I'm a nuggets fan, and I believe we can get someone. I want Young personally, and I do realize that is a big long shot, but some of those guys have to be attainable somehow.


:rofl:

There is a difference between a good prospect and the prospects you are talking about. For example, Thaddeus Young is an amazing prospect. Sure the Nuggets could get a good prospect because that is what is available in the second half of the 2007 draft. NBA execs are salivating over the 2007 draft as there are at least a half a dozen guys that would have gone first in 2006 if they had been draft eligible.

I'm telling you that teams aren't giving up their position for amazing and great prospects in 2007 & 2008 because the reward potential is too high.


----------



## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

*Re: Joe Smith: NOW A NUGGET...(pending League approval)*



cpawfan said:


> :rofl:
> 
> There is a difference between a good prospect and the prospects you are talking about. For example, Thaddeus Young is an amazing prospect. Sure the Nuggets could get a good prospect because that is what is available in the second half of the 2007 draft. NBA execs are salivating over the 2007 draft as there are at least a half a dozen guys that would have gone first in 2006 if they had been draft eligible.
> 
> I'm telling you that teams aren't giving up their position for amazing and great prospects in 2007 & 2008 because the reward potential is too high.


 

Alexis Ajinca could fall out of the lotto next year. The Nuggets have some players that could be packaged with our first rounder for a higher first rounder and a bad contract. Its hard to pick a senerio at this point because the season hasnt started. But i'm dead sure we could trade kmart for some kind of first rounder. Then come up with some kind of a package... like say our first rounder, plus the traded for first rounder plus say marcus camby... to a team with a high pick (would work especially if the team had vets on the roster they want to win with) for say Young or Walker. Now i realize that is a long shot, but it is possible.

Whats very possible is trading Kenyon for a lower pick and ending up with Ajinca and say Roby, Brewer, or Giddens.


----------

