# Backlash Thread [merged, please keep it civil]



## ghoti (Jan 30, 2005)

*Seriously. What the Hell?*

Is anyone here upset?


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

*Re: Seriously. What the Hell?*

[strike]I am at you for making this thread. Go to the game thread if you want to talk about the game.[/strike]


This thread will remain open as long as the criticisms of the game and team are reasonable.


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## budselig (Jun 18, 2004)

*Fire Sam Mitchell!!*

*It is O-V-E-R.* Sam, you are DONE. This is unacceptable!!! He MUST be fired tomorrow not only for the sake of this team, but to bring justice to this COUNTRY. GOOD RIDDANCE TO YOU SAM!!!!


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## ghoti (Jan 30, 2005)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*

LOL! That's the spirit!

Young teams take lumps sometimes, but that game was brutal. Someone has to want to vent.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*

I hope that some of the Mitchell supporters can come to this thread and explain to the rest of us what value he brings to the franchise.
I mean, that's just embarassing. 60-ok, 70-ok, but 80 points, when was the last time someone scored 80 points in this league?

So please, I call on you Sam Mitchell supporters. Plead your case, make me understand!


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*

^ What was Sam's strategy to stop Kobe, and what should it have been?


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## Tince (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



speedythief said:


> ^ What was Sam's strategy to stop Kobe, and what should it have been?


 Double team him every time he touches the ball. I promise you the Lakers wouldn't score 120 if you forced the ball out of Kobe's hands. 

I watched the game on league pass, and I hate Kobe, but I kept yelling at the TV, "Why aren't they double teaming him, going to a zone (focused on Kobe), or something!"

Sorry Raps fans, that had to be rough to watch.


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

OMG I AM soooo ANGRY!! (anger rising, rising RISING ARRGHGH!!! (scary face lol)


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



Tince said:


> Double team him every time he touches the ball. I promise you the Lakers wouldn't score 120 if you forced the ball out of Kobe's hands.
> 
> I watched the game on league pass, and I hate Kobe, but I kept yelling at the TV, "Why aren't they double teaming him, going to a zone (focused on Kobe), or something!"
> 
> Sorry Raps fans, that had to be rough to watch.


Yeah, we didn't keep two guys shadowing him. We waited until he had possession then we sent help. He was doing a good job of moving the ball when he was pressured with two guys. A lot of his shots went up so fast that a second defender might not've helped much but it's hard to understand why we avoided it, especially since we've been doing a good job of doubling this season, like in our victories over the Rockets and TMac.

I think it's one of those situations where we might've been expecting him to cool off at some time, at which point the rest of his team would've been ice cold and we could fight for the lead. Didn't happen that way and I'm sure Sam is beside himself right now.

The game in Denver tomorrow will be telling.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

Not just tonight, although I'd like to hear more explanations for how a player can go for 55 in a half, and why he went away from Villanueva who was hotter than chili-sh** and why he can't get the guards to give the ball to Bosh in the second half. 

Tell me for the season, I've made many posts criticizing Sam Mitchell it's not just tonight, what does Sam Mitchell do for this team and why should he continue to coach (sorry, pose as a coach) for our team? From what I see, he has a poor record at developing young players, he can't develop a professional calibre offensive system, his substitution patterns are inconsistent and sometimes downright terrible, he made a player want to quit basketball last year, and so on, and so on.

I just want to hear some defence of Sam Mitchell as a coach. If you think we should keep him for stability reasons, please explain how being consistently outcoached and stable is better than possibly bringing in a professional coach.

I'm sorry I'm really upset after this loss, but these are things I want to know from people who are behind Sam Mitchell. It seems that Babcock gets ripped on this board but Sam doesn't get it nearly as much.


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



Team Mao said:


> I hope that some of the Mitchell supporters can come to this thread and explain to the rest of us what value he brings to the franchise.
> I mean, that's just embarassing. 60-ok, 70-ok, but 80 points, when was the last time someone scored 80 points in this league?
> 
> So please, I call on you Sam Mitchell supporters. Plead your case, make me understand!


our team just quit. Simple as that (in my mind anyway). Kobe had everyone on him shellshocked. Not much Sam can do when guys quit 

I have a hard time figuring a lot of things Sam does, and wouldn't be upset at all if he's dismissed, but I think it was our players tonight. They quit


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*

I knew Mao would be having a field day with this, but come on... did you want him to break Kobe's legs? If anyone in the league could have gone off like that, it was Kobe, and it happened... and I never knew I'd be able to make sense of this phrase, but it relaly did happen on us. I'm shocked right now as anyone ought to be, but that's just general frustrated, angry shock not aimed at one specific person right now.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*

I don't think we really stopped defending him, even when we put Jose and Pape and them in at the end. I think we still had somebody on him tight for most of the later part of the game.

I think the bad part was the offense we couldn't muster, if that's what you're talking about ac. When we had the ball we didn't know what to do with it.

The most frustrating part of the game, for me, was in the late third during the fullcourt press the Lakers were using. For whatever reason we decided to send our shooting guard and small forward up the court and try to cross the half line with big men after the ball was taken away from James or Calderon. Why do you make our worst ballhandlers responsible for crossing the time line? That's stupid. Keep them at the other end in case you need to heave it in desperation, they are the longest and they can snatch a thrown ball out of the air. Meanwhile your better ballhandlers and passers can work the ball out of the double and cross the line.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



ansoncarter said:


> our team just quit. Simple as that (in my mind anyway). Kobe had everyone on him shellshocked. Not much Sam can do when guys quit
> 
> I have a hard time figuring a lot of things Sam does, and wouldn't be upset at all if he's dismissed, but I think it was our players tonight. They quit


Players quit when the coach quits. If the players aren't responding to the coach then the coach should go. If the coach can't tell the players something constructive during the timeouts and just keeps barking the same things, then of course the players won't listen. But the coach just yelling the same things over and over is the same as quiting. If something isn't working (the yelling of the same thing) and you don't try something different (instruction/coaching rather than yelling the same things) than that in my books is quiting. 

I'm saying this in reference to the season and not only tonight. So I guess in my books, Sam Mitchell quit on this team about a month ago. 

PS- Still waiting for some defence of Sam.


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## martymar (Jan 5, 2006)

The raps played like they were in awe of Kobe



> I mean, that's just embarassing. 60-ok, 70-ok, but 80 points, when was the last time someone scored 80 points in this league?


only Wilt scored more, but to answer the Kobe question it doesn't really matter how many he scored, the fact is the team just gave up and got caught up the show, When Kobe is on fire you can't really stop him, he has done it to Dallas scoring 62 in 3 quarters.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*

I didn't get a chance to watch this game.

But ghoti asked if this was happening to the Nets what I would want or think, I finished with wishing KMart was still on the team to put a hard foul across his head.

Did the Raptors try to take him out of his flow? Raptors were up 19 at one point. Sure they saw him just carrying the team right?

-Petey


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



Budweiser_Boy said:


> I knew Mao would be having a field day with this, but come on... did you want him to break Kobe's legs? If anyone in the league could have gone off like that, it was Kobe, and it happened... and I never knew I'd be able to make sense of this phrase, but it relaly did happen on us. I'm shocked right now as anyone ought to be, but that's just general frustrated, angry shock not aimed at one specific person right now.


I've been on Sam all season. I wanted to start a thread like this this morning, but I woke up late and just started following the game. I didn't want to start a new thread, my apologies for lumping this into this thread

I just want someone to please defend Sam Mitchell as a coach. Not only tonight's game. But as a coach, what does he bring to this team. No one seems to be doing that and instead try to redirect the argument elsewhere. So please give me something.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*

Petey: the Raps had crisp defensive rotations in the first quarter that virtually eliminated Odom and the other Lakers. I think the theory was to "let" Kobe shoot and shut everyone else down.

I don't think Kobe scoring 55 points in the second half ever came up in the break at halftime in either locker room.


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## martymar (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



speedythief said:


> I don't think we really stopped defending him, even when we put Jose and Pape and them in at the end. I think we still had somebody on him tight for most of the later part of the game.
> 
> I think the bad part was the offense we couldn't muster, if that's what you're talking about ac. When we had the ball we didn't know what to do with it.
> 
> The most frustrating part of the game, for me, was in the late third during the fullcourt press the Lakers were using. For whatever reason we decided to send our shooting guard and small forward up the court and try to cross the half line with big men after the ball was taken away from James or Calderon. Why do you make our worst ballhandlers responsible for crossing the time line? That's stupid. Keep them at the other end in case you need to heave it in desperation, they are the longest and they can snatch a thrown ball out of the air. Meanwhile your better ballhandlers and passers can work the ball out of the double and cross the line.


The problem was when they got pressed they dribbled the ball instead of making quick passes, they should have a man at half court for the quick passes and someone should have been open underneath


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



Team Mao said:


> I've been on Sam all season. I wanted to start a thread like this this morning, but I woke up late and just started following the game. I didn't want to start a new thread, my apologies for lumping this into this thread
> 
> I just want someone to please defend Sam Mitchell as a coach. Not only tonight's game. But as a coach, what does he bring to this team. No one seems to be doing that and instead try to redirect the argument elsewhere. So please give me something.


 Plenty of people defend Sam as a coach, myself included. It just doesn't do anything for you, so there's no point wasting my time right now, especially after Kobe basically ****ted on the Raptors to the tune of 81 points.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



Budweiser_Boy said:


> Plenty of people defend Sam as a coach, myself included. It just doesn't do anything for you, so there's no point wasting my time right now, especially after Kobe basically ****ted on the Raptors to the tune of 81 points.


Okay, give it some time. But please give some substance to your argument. I know that plenty of people defend him but usually do so by redirecting the blame onto other people, I've never heard anything substantial in terms of what he brings as a coach. If I could hear something than it would give me a chance to come around on the guy. Hell, I've warmed up to Bonner after some of the arguments brought forth on this thread, I think it's possible that I could lessen my hate of Mitchell and put away the voodoo dolls.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



speedythief said:


> Petey: the Raps had crisp defensive rotations in the first quarter that virtually eliminated Odom and the other Lakers. I think the theory was to "let" Kobe shoot and shut everyone else down.
> 
> I don't think Kobe scoring 55 points in the second half ever came up in the break at halftime in either locker room.


Don't even takes a timeout to lay out a hard foul.

Charles Oakley let Kobe go off like that?

-Petey


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## martymar (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



Petey said:


> Don't even takes a timeout to lay out a hard foul.
> 
> Charles Oakley let Kobe go off like that?
> 
> -Petey


Do you know what happened to Don Chaney, when he ask one of his players to foul someone hard?
There is big difference when somone gets fould hard compare to deliberately trying to injure someone cuz he is having a big game. Did Kobe try to show up the raptors at any point?

Charles Oakley was considered a dirty player but he will not foul someone hard cuz he is having a big game unless he is showing up the team.


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

he's got a history of coaching this way, (single coverage on the kobes and vinces of the league) and it's worked in the past. And was working well into this game too. 

if we kept running our offence, we probably win that game. 84 points and all 

(note:not a defence of Sam. Just feel like expressing myself on the internet sometimes)


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## MonsterBosh (Feb 9, 2005)

:laugh: ...... Mitchell is not in full control of his coaching job, and we can thank Babcock for that. Look, Mitchell had to play Sow in this game and that alone is proof that he is being put in a compromising position. 

Sam certainly wants to win, but with the team personnel he has at his disposal that makes his job next to impossible. Of course everybody here has the qualifications to second guess what Sam should have done to make the loss respectable.

Remember Sam is still "new" to coaching and given the pod of players he must deal with ... well I don't think any other coach in the league could do any better. Sam knows more and can see more than anybody here about the Raptor's situation .... so this loss is meaningless in the bigger picture.

As for Kobe ... well that was certainly a spectacular performance and he could not be denied ... and even double teaming would not have stopped him because he is just too good. When the Raptors were up by 17 points, all that meant was they were up on the Lakers by two runs ... and when the Lakers made their first run that made the game competitive. But when they continued their run and evened the game, the Raptors were sunk and they knew it. The fouls piled up, the Laker defence stiffened and James went cold .. and that's all she wrote .... :laugh:


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



Petey said:


> Don't even takes a timeout to lay out a hard foul.
> 
> Charles Oakley let Kobe go off like that?
> 
> -Petey


Seriously, how do you not tell Araujo to just clobber Kobe the next time he comes into the paint? I'm not talking about injuring him, but a good stiff shot (or two, if he didn't get the message) would have been more than appropriate.

He scored 20 points in the last five minutes when the game was decided. That's showing a team up to me, but the team deserves it if they're just going to take it on the chin.

This is just one of those performances where all the other NBA fans are saying, "Jesus, glad that didn't happen to my team."


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*

You've got to wonder how you can let somebody drop 81 points on you and not go out of the arena in a wheelchair. I'm not saying you end his career or anything crazy, but you can't let yourself get embarrassed like that. Obviously it's not the classiest move, and maybe they did do it (didn't see the game), but you need to give Kobe a couple very very hard fouls if he's going to do that to you. Again, I'm not saying you put a hit out on him, but ya gotta rough him up if he's playing that ridiculous.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

ansoncarter said:


> h*e's got a history of coaching this way, (single coverage on the kobes and vinces of the league) and it's worked in the past. And was working well into this game too.*
> 
> if we kept running our offence, we probably win that game. 84 points and all
> 
> (note:not a defence of Sam. Just feel like expressing myself on the internet sometimes)


For the last two seasons, we've been one of the worst defensive teams in the league. It's hard to argue that Sam's defensive coaching style is working. 

Sam's problem is that he won't adjust his coaching style, which I could see if he was a veteran head coach with years of success using his system;but he's a young, inexperienced coach with no history of success, as a player or coach.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

How come more people are not upset about this? I couldn't even stand to watch the last 6 minute of this game because the Raptor team itself stayed bent over after Kobe scored his 70th point and went on waltzing towards the end of regulation while thrusting his crotch towards the Raptor bench, all the while the team could do nothing but watch as if this was all some kind of dream (or nightmare). 

*THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE TO LET KOBE SCORE THAT MANY POINTS.* The fact that the game strategy did not change as the barrage went on completely dumbfounded me. Yes, it was working up until the halftime, *only because the Raptors shooting over 60 percent had something to do with it*. yes it gave us a good cushion to work with for the second half, but ****, when the situation arises to this extent you have to make changes to the gameplan. 

All in all, I'm glad that there's another game tomorrow to help cool down the frustration that was the 2nd Lakers game.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

More venting...

What the **** was up with the ****en effort after Kobe scored his 40th point? It was as if the team forgot who their opponent was and was too awestruck by what was going on. And as Kobe kept draining the buckets, his teammates became much more aggressive, assertive and confident. The Raptors on the other hand became more timid, dumfounded, and oh so sloppy. Travelling calls, lazy passses on pick and rolls, quick perimeter shots, is that the way a team is supposed to respond to adversity?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

The vent continues...

Can this season become any worse? Right at the halfway mark we have:
-a 1-15 mark to start the season
-the inability to 1up Vince everytime he steps his foot onto the ACC
-and now a performance that will forever be held in the record books

I wonder what the second half of the season will bring. Maybe we'll get some kind of team fight happening during a game...


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

Team Mao said:


> For the last two seasons, we've been one of the worst defensive teams in the league. It's hard to argue that Sam's defensive coaching style is working.
> 
> Sam's problem is that he won't adjust his coaching style, which I could see if he was a veteran head coach with years of success using his system;but he's a young, inexperienced coach with no history of success, as a player or coach.


good point 

I saw us throw different sets at him, and different combos, which was nice but it came way too late


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

trick said:


> What the **** was up with the ****en effort after Kobe scored his 40th point? It was as if the team forgot who their opponent was and was too awestruck by what was going on. And as Kobe kept draining the buckets, his teammates became much more aggressive, assertive and confident. The Raptors on the other hand became more timid, dumfounded, and oh so sloppy. Travelling calls, lazy passses on pick and rolls, quick perimeter shots, is that the way a team is supposed to respond to adversity?
> .


yeah 

exactly the way I felt too. WOrd for word


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

Team Mao said:


> From what I see, he has a poor record at developing young players


Please explain.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

Rhubarb said:


> Please explain.


This year's rookies:
Charlie- Almost no progress in his game thus far
Joey- no progress in his game
Jose- almost seems to have regressed since the beginning of the season

Last year's
Hoffa- not all on Sam, but absolutely no progress
Bonner- still a set shooter who relies on hustle, hasn't really progressed significantly in terms of development in his game.

So out of 5 young players who have developed under Sam, only one has seen any progress.

Oh, sorry including Bosh, it would be 2 for 6. Not exactly a great return. If you have a differing point of view please share. It's just what I see from watching the games.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

trick said:


> How come more people are not upset about this? I couldn't even stand to watch the last 6 minute of this game because the Raptor team itself stayed bent over after Kobe scored his 70th point and went on waltzing towards the end of regulation while thrusting his crotch towards the Raptor bench, all the while the team could do nothing but watch as if this was all some kind of dream (or nightmare).
> 
> *THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE TO LET KOBE SCORE THAT MANY POINTS.* The fact that the game strategy did not change as the barrage went on completely dumbfounded me. Yes, it was working up until the halftime, *only because the Raptors shooting over 60 percent had something to do with it*. yes it gave us a good cushion to work with for the second half, but ****, when the situation arises to this extent you have to make changes to the gameplan.
> 
> All in all, I'm glad that there's another game tomorrow to help cool down the frustration that was the 2nd Lakers game.


Thanks for the rage Trick, I was starting to get tired of every saying 'well, at least we got to watch history happen' or 'it's Kobe, what can you do' and other f***ing nonsense.


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

i am not angry, i am in awe, the most amazing thing is that it didnt seem that he took that many shot, and he couldnt miss in the 3rd


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Kobe has the ability to put up 46 FGA ANY game because a) he is a ballhog, and b) he is damn atletic to be able to get that many decent looks. But he won't usually put up 40 shots because usually will not a high enough % to justify that chucking.

Normal Kobe would hit 21 shots out of 46, not 28 out of 46. Was it poor defence or just a hot streak. Sorry, but most of those shots were conteseted. It was a hot streak. **** happens.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

We got beat by one of the greatest players to ever lace up...it happens.


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## endora60 (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



speedythief said:


> ^ What was Sam's strategy to stop Kobe, and what should it have been?


His strategy? Throw every player and combination of players he had at Kobe. Every known defense.

What should it have been? Concede the game halfway through the third quarter. 

It wasn't Mitchell's strategy or bad play by the Raptors; it was just Kobe being completely Kobe. It could've been any team and any coach, the result would've been the same. (Witness what he did to Dallas in three quarters a couple weeks ago. The Mavs are one of the finest teams in the League, and he shattered them.) No knock on Toronto that they couldn't stop him. No one could've.

Laurie


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



endora60 said:


> His strategy? Throw every player and combination of players he had at Kobe. Every known defense.
> 
> What should it have been? Concede the game halfway through the third quarter.
> 
> ...


I strongly disagree, the Mavs are not a great defense team so using them as an example is rather poor. You think the Pistons would allow that to go on without at least doubling him? I strongly doubt that. Raptor fans who saw the game, did Sam try to double him at all?


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## Divine Spammer (Jul 11, 2005)

I still can't understand what all this noise is about.
OK, Kobe has exploded, and I didn't enjoy to watch it too. Our guys seemed so helpless out there.
But it's one game. 
The Mavs have a tough defense, or so everyone says. 
Kobe scored 62 points in 3 Qs against them. 
If Kobe's on fire, there's nothing you can do about it. As simple as that.


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## drlove_playa (Feb 11, 2005)

The mavs have a tough defense? lol since when? They have improved a little bit but I would never even come close to calling them a tough defensive team.

I am not gonna go into much detail about the game but after watching it, I really got to see what a loser Sam is. I don't think Sam is gonna last the rest of the season. The Raps have no trouble on offense, they just need a defensive coach to get them all on the same page. Performances like these is what makes the Raps a laughing stock in the league. Who cares how much cap room we will have in a couple years, who in hell wants to come here and play? None of the top players do. We'd be lucky if we get to keep Bosh.


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## The Truth IV (Nov 3, 2005)

Petey and Socco are right - Bosh, Bonner or Charlie V. should have made Kobe pick himself up off the floor every time he drove into the paint. Nothing dirty and not to injure - just a hard foul every time Kobe beat his man and got into the lane. The Raps have no physical forwards on D - what they have is a bunch of shirleys.

It is not a matter of class - Kobe has an incredible talent for drawing fouls on big men. He gets into the lane and bounces off them and tries for the and1 (JKidd does it well, Iverson's made a career out of it). Bosh, Bonner and CV3 try to avoid the contact but Kobe's too athletic and gets too much respect from the refs. You have to make him pay a price. I can't believe I'm even saying this, but if Araujo was playing, he would have sent Kobe to the floor 3 times in the first quarter, and Bryant might not have had enough in the tank to put up 81 by the end of the game.

MoPete had an off game - why was he reaching on Kobe so much? Make him settle for jumpers and eventually he'll miss a few (even last night). Joey Graham was lost against KB. Eric Williams did a decent job I thought. Jose Calderon was like a schoolgirl. Jalen had no chance and knew it. 

Not that Sam Mitchell is without blame, but he must be frustrated that none of his forwards have any heart.


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## martymar (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



Kitty said:


> I strongly disagree, the Mavs are not a great defense team so using them as an example is rather poor. You think the Pistons would allow that to go on without at least doubling him? I strongly doubt that. Raptor fans who saw the game, did Sam try to double him at all?


This is not the same Don Nelson coached team, the current mavs do play defense they are allowing only 93.7 Points which is 9th


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## martymar (Jan 5, 2006)

> Petey and Socco are right - Bosh, Bonner or Charlie V. should have made Kobe pick himself up off the floor every time he drove into the paint. Nothing dirty and not to injure - just a hard foul every time Kobe beat his man and got into the lane. The Raps have no physical forwards on D - what they have is a bunch of shirleys.


If you want to foul someone hard you do it at the start of the game to send a message not after he has torched the team. What would that do aside for a suspension since that will be flagrant 2 foul, and Kobe is not a puss* unlike vc


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## MjM2xtreMe (Sep 1, 2005)

trick said:


> The vent continues...
> 
> Can this season become any worse? Right at the halfway mark we have:
> -a 1-15 mark to start the season
> ...



I am angry too but the good thing about performance like this is no one is gonna remember what team he scored 81 on. Does anybody remember who Wilt faced when he scored 100, doubtful.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



endora60 said:


> His strategy? Throw every player and combination of players he had at Kobe. Every known defense.
> 
> What should it have been? Concede the game halfway through the third quarter.
> 
> ...


He should've conceded the game part way through the third? What do you mean?


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



martymar said:


> This is not the same Don Nelson coached team, the current mavs do play defense they are allowing only 93.7 Points which is 9th


I believe the Knicks are higher than that so what does that tell you? Nothing! :biggrin: Once again, did Sam try to double him or what?


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## martymar (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



Kitty said:


> I believe the Knicks are higher than that so what does that tell you? Nothing! :biggrin: Once again, did Sam try to double him or what?


Yes they tried doubling Kobe, and what do you mean knicks are higher?


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by
> 
> I think the theory was to "let" Kobe shoot and shut everyone else down.


well, that didn't seem to work to well

Now there are a lot of bad teams in the league, but I really think that the futility of Sam Mitchell as an NBA coach were on display here last night. Larry Brown musted have been wondering what the hell did Sam was doing???

This should be close to the final nail in Sam's coffen, at least he got his name in the record books before he's gone. I understand Kobe being hot, but if you, as a head coach jus't can't do anything to stop one player from scoring that many points then I bid you farewell Sam :wave: 

*Three skrikes and your out Sam*
1. Fighting with players
2. Loss to an overseas team
3. Kobe scores 81, overcomes 14 point deficit while Sam scratches his head

unappropiate picture


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## The Truth IV (Nov 3, 2005)

martymar said:


> If you want to foul someone hard you do it at the start of the game to send a message not after he has torched the team. What would that do aside for a suspension since that will be flagrant 2 foul, and Kobe is not a puss* unlike vc


There is a big difference between a flagrant foul (the kind that might get you a suspension) and a simple hard foul that is good basketball. I was suggesting they should have knocked Kobe to the floor every time he got in the paint - rather than try to get out of the way while also attempting a half *** block like Bonner and Bosh were doing. I wasn't suggesting they undercut Kobe or elbow him in the eye. Think the Pistons "no lay-up" rule from the late 1980's, or how the Knicks defended Jordan in the 90's. The Bulls won anyway, but you never saw MJ go for 81 did you?


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## martymar (Jan 5, 2006)

TRON said:


> well, that didn't seem to work to well
> 
> Now there are a lot of bad teams in the league, but I really think that the futility of Sam Mitchell as an NBA coach were on display here last night. Larry Brown musted have been wondering what the hell did Sam was doing???
> 
> ...


Too Much Bandwagon jumping
The fact is Kobe was unstoppable, we're not talking about a 6th man or fringe player scoring 81 points, we're talking about the number 1 scorer in the NBA right now. He is averaging 45 ppg this month. He scored 62 point against Dallas after only 3 quarters, does that make avery johnson a bad coach. and yes Kobe could have scored 90 in that game if Dallas didn't get blown out.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

I'm not saying Sam's strategy worked; obviously it didn't.

But the Lakers shot 14/42 as a team without him (33.3%), including 3/10 from three and 10/13 from the stripe. Pretty poor numbers. Rebounding became a huge issue in the second half also so credit to them for at least that.

What Kobe did I don't think anyone else could do, not just the volume of shots, but the stamina he had to keep going until the last minute of regulation.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



Rawse said:


> Seriously, how do you not tell Araujo to just clobber Kobe the next time he comes into the paint? I'm not talking about injuring him, but a good stiff shot (or two, if he didn't get the message) would have been more than appropriate.


Tough to do that in a suit.


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## martymar (Jan 5, 2006)

The Truth IV said:


> There is a big difference between a flagrant foul (the kind that might get you a suspension) and a simple hard foul that is good basketball. I was suggesting they should have knocked Kobe to the floor every time he got in the paint - rather than try to get out of the way while also attempting a half *** block like Bonner and Bosh were doing. I wasn't suggesting they undercut Kobe or elbow him in the eye. Think the Pistons "no lay-up" rule from the late 1980's, or how the Knicks defended Jordan in the 90's. The Bulls won anyway, but you never saw MJ go for 81 did you?


Let me explain to you the difference, piston had a no lay up rule as you said so yourself. Kobe is having a big game and then you want to foul him hard that constitute a flagrant foul since the game wasn't physical to begin with. How the Knicks defended Jordan in the 90's? I bet you didn't know Jordan scored 50 plus points against the Knicks with a sprained ankle. There is a difference between Kobe and Jordan, jordan passes the ball more to get his team involve early part of games, once the team needs him he steps up in the 4th quarter.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Team Mao said:


> This year's rookies:
> Charlie- Almost no progress in his game thus far
> Joey- no progress in his game
> Jose- almost seems to have regressed since the beginning of the season


Ever heard of the rookie wall?


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by *martymar !*
> 
> Too Much Bandwagon jumping
> The fact is Kobe was unstoppable, we're not talking about a 6th man or fringe player scoring 81 points, we're talking about the number 1 scorer in the NBA right now. He is averaging 45 ppg this month. He scored 62 point against Dallas after only 3 quarters, does that make avery johnson a bad coach. and yes Kobe could have scored 90 in that game if Dallas didn't get blown out.Too Much Bandwagon jumping


I don't think I ever was on the Sam bandwagon,

I think you might be going a little too easy on this issue, yes Kobe is threw the roof this month, but at some point in the game, as a coach, don't you change your strategy if it's not working. I missed the game, but the sad part is that Sam probably did everything he could think of and just had nothing...not exactly encouraging for his prospects of coaching this team in the future. 

If you think it's acceptable to give up 81 points to one player, and 122 points total, where "nothing could be done about because this guy is just on fire" then maybe your expectations are just too low, and with this team I understand because the bar has been set really low.


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## martymar (Jan 5, 2006)

TRON said:


> I don't think I ever was on the Sam bandwagon,
> 
> I think you might be going a little too easy on this issue, yes Kobe is threw the roof this month, but at some point in the game, as a coach, don't you change your strategy if it's not working. I missed the game, but the sad part is that Sam probably did everything he could think of and just had nothing...not exactly encouraging for his prospects of coaching this team in the future.
> 
> If you think it's acceptable to give up 81 points to one player, and 122 points total, where "nothing could be done about because this guy is just on fire" then maybe your expectations are just too low, and with this team I understand because the bar has been set really low.


You didn't even watch the game, If Kobe scored 81 and raptors won yes that would have been acceptable. They lost the game not because Kobe scored 81 raptors lost cuz they were outrebounded 51-27. The raptors players were so caught up in the Kobe show they forgot to play the rest of the game. Too many quick shots, and turnoevers when Lakers were making their run


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

I think you're right TRON, I mean this team lost an exhibition game to a foreign team, Sam should have packed his bags a long time ago. 

People need to start realizing that every time something bad happens, it's not totally Sam Mitchell's fault. You replace him with any other coach in the NBA, and there wouldn't have been much of a difference with the outcome of last night's game.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

^
Bro, I just said I didn't watch the game, that is why I come here for the knowledgable B-Ball fans to fill me in on exactly what the heck happened, yet so far no one has critiqued any coaching or strategy that was implemented or could have been implemented to curtail Kobes amazing night, I'm not saying shut him down, that's just unrealistic.

I understand as well that our lack of experience, being "awestruck" by Kobe, and getting killed on the boards were huge reasons why we lost, but IMO a better coach with this same team would not let this happen.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

martymar said:


> You didn't even watch the game, If Kobe scored 81 and raptors won yes that would have been acceptable. They lost the game not because Kobe scored 81 raptors lost cuz they were outrebounded 51-27. The raptors players were so caught up in the Kobe show they forgot to play the rest of the game. Too many quick shots, and turnoevers when Lakers were making their run


So...why exactly did the Lakers win after a 17 point deficit? Was it because of rebounding, Kobe or the Raptors accepting the anal rapage? You seem to be changing your stance on three different occasions there...(and if anyone, I mean anyone, thinks Kobe's 81 points wasn't the main reason on their comeback you're, with all due respect, totally delusional).

In any case, even though I've been venting in this thread I still don't think Sam needs to be fired despite how the season has turned out thus far. I highly doubt any coach in this league (employed or unemployed) can help turn around this team as it is. Even the famous Larry Brown has current troubles with the Knicks (I even think we're ahead of them in seedings). Don't need to make changes for the sake of changes.

(Fun Fact: With that one game, Kobe surpassed Araujo's total season points of 80.)


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

Usually I just read everyone's posts as a guest, never posting anything, but I had to come out of the darkness in order to voice my opinion after reading this thread.
First of all, from watching the game, what Sam Mitchell did wasn't the wrong thing. He stuck to the same strategy he had during the first half, that is to let Kobe have his shots while shutting down the rest of the Lakers team. In no way did anyone, including himself, think Kobe will hit 61% of his shots. Kobe might put up alot of shots, but he's never been the most dead eye shooter in the game. The raptors strategy throughout the year has been to cover the wingmen superstars of opposing teams with one and one, let them have their shots while focusing on the rest of the squad (ex: New Jersey, Houston etc...). At times it works (ex: MoPe shutting down McGrady) and sometimes it doesn't (ex: Vince). Superstars are going to get their points if they want. Mitchell believes in shutting the rest of the team down and take advantage of that.
Now some of you are stating that his strategem should have become doubling or tripling Kobe. Usually that's a good idea but in this case, in my opinion, if they started doing so after, let's say after his 50th point, he might've had went on to score more than 81. If you watched the game, Kobe was not only unconscious as a shooter but simply amazing at drawing fouls. He knows he can get the calls and he knows exactly how to sell it. Therefore, what do you do? Put your whole team in foul trouble early and let the whole Laker team hit the free throw line or keep letting Kobe shoot, figuring he's going to have cool down, that no man can keep knocking shots like that, and then pound away offensively.
Of course that didn't happen but what could you do? Kobe keeps knocking shots, abusing the raptors like they are young white girls from Colorado while the Raptors became amazed much like anyone who had a working set of eyes that was tuned to the game (or there), losing all cool and sense of purpose on both ends, discouraged. It is no different than, let's say, war, when you witness you general knifed down on the battle, it's simply discouraging, leaving you with no heart and passion to fight back while the other side rallies over that single victory. The Lakers started playing better as a unit while the Raptors ran around, putting up horrendous shots and passing like highschool kids from Alaska. They started blocking, pressuring, stealing and playing solid defence. It was just..."one of those games."
Now, don't get me wrong, Sam Mitchell or the Raptors aren't blameless. Mitchell misused his timeouts, should've asked his players to be very physical with Kobe and take him out of this game and never, it seemed, explained what do when facing a full court press. His coaching was average at best, sub par, like it has been most of the season. 
HIS BIGGEST ERROR as a Coach, which no one seems to mention, is that the Raptors never went at Kobe on offence. They never gave the ball to the wing players and made them post up at Kobe, drive at him etc... It has been shown that if you bully Kobe around on offence (though he's a good defensive player), it wears him down and takes him slightly out of his game. Instead, he just kinda stood around, never having to put much effort forward, his mindset purely on the offensive side of the ball, quickly dashing up the floor so he can get the ball at a decent scoring position if the ball isn't in his hand. And for that, questions must be asked because that is simple scouting.
He shouldn't be fired as, unlike one of the previous posts, he has used his rookies quite well and seems to have turned the team around (slightly) since the horrendous start. Whoever thinks he's misusing his rookies aren't thinking straight. Charlie might have been playing well in the beginning, but his defense was AWFUL and he wasn't rebounding. I don't care but Bonner puts that effort forward and rebounds harder than CV. And anyhow, you shouldn't be giving rookies more than 25 minutes and they're all averaging close to 20, that's more than enough. All three of the rookies this year have been in the top 10(except for Graham due to his lack of minutes and aggresiveness), that's a pretty damn good feat for a 2nd year coach.
Sam isn't a bad coach, he's just not a head coach, he's an assistant. But firing him now would be useless and wouldn't help the team at all.
Last game was a shame, though shouldn't be lamented in a wave of backlash. There were mistakes done, yes, but sometimes you cannot help it, especially in this case due to the personnel on and off the court. Don't lose your minds over it, wait until the season is over to throw in your final word, but don't lose your marbles over a spectacular performance.


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## martymar (Jan 5, 2006)

> So...why exactly did the Lakers win after a 17 point deficit? Was it because of rebounding, Kobe or the Raptors accepting the anal rapage? You seem to be changing your stance on three different occasions there...(and if anyone, I mean anyone, thinks Kobe's 81 points wasn't the main reason on their comeback you're, with all due respect, totally delusional).


Lakers won after 17 point deficit cuz the Raptors weren't rebounding (51-27 in Lakers favour), they were turning the ball over (15 times majority were in the 3rd quarter) and taking quick shots (were shooting 60% up until middle of 3rd quarter). If the raptors had continue what they were doing they would have won the game. 

would kobe scored 81 if the raptors were the ones outrebounding the lakers 51-27, of course not. Would Kobe scored easy baskets in the 3rd quarter if the raptors didn't turn the ball over and taking quicks shots of course not. 

Kobe was the catalyst, the reason lakers made their run. The 27 points in the 3rd quarter were pretty big and inspired his teammates to play their part and increased their intensity. But let's face it if Kobe wasn't such a ball hog his teammates would have gotten involve in scoring when they were making the run. 


Where did I changed my stance?


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

should i go buy a Bosh Lakers jersey?


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## ghoti (Jan 30, 2005)

shookem said:


> We got beat by one of the greatest players to ever lace up...it happens.


81 points?

No, it doesn't. Ever.


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

ghoti said:


> 81 points?
> 
> No, it doesn't. Ever.


What about Robinson's 70, Baylor's 80, Wilt's 100? People put up ludicrous numbers. Kobe probably could've had more than 81 against Dallas had it none been a blowout.


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## ghoti (Jan 30, 2005)

SickGame said:


> What about Robinson's 70, Baylor's 80, Wilt's 100? People put up ludicrous numbers. Kobe probably could've had more than 81 against Dallas had it none been a blowout.


Robinson scored 71, not 81. And it was a farce.

Other than that, only Wilt.

So, no, it doesn't happen.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

speedythief said:


> I'm not saying Sam's strategy worked; obviously it didn't.
> 
> But the Lakers shot 14/42 as a team without him (33.3%), including 3/10 from three and 10/13 from the stripe. Pretty poor numbers. Rebounding became a huge issue in the second half also so credit to them for at least that.
> 
> *What Kobe did I don't think anyone else could do, not just the volume of shots, but the stamina he had to keep going until the last minute of regulation.*


I had Air Fly and a few other members ask why it was so hard to jack up so many shots.

Stamina is a huge part of it. Besides playing D, bringing the ball up, driving the lane, pulling up for long shots, over and over again... half the players would be iced up for hours after the game.

I'd bet Kobe was wishing there would be an OT.

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

SickGame said:


> What about Robinson's 70, Baylor's 80, Wilt's 100? People put up ludicrous numbers. Kobe probably could've had more than 81 against Dallas had it none been a blowout.


They should had fouled him hard each time he drove to the lane, and then smacked him right across the head if that didn't teach him.

-Petey


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

martymar said:


> Where did I changed my stance?


At first you said rebounding was the main issue but then you started adding on Kobe's _selfishness_, sloppy play on the offensive end, etc.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



blowuptheraptors said:


> Tough to do that in a suit.


Meh, didn't realize Araujo was out. Whoever the next biggest/goonish guy is then.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

*Re: Fire Sam Mitchell!!*



Rawse said:


> Meh, didn't realize Araujo was out. Whoever the next biggest/goonish guy is then.


Matt Bonner...oh wait, went that route already. Pape Sow...no, no, he's still on the "I'm finally out of the NBDL"-high. Aaron Williams...oh wait, he'll just cut into Matt Bonner's 30+ minutes...

I got it, LOREN WOODS!!! He is averaging the second highest PER on our team. Loren Woods is definitely the answer.

:dead:


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## no_free_baskets (Jan 4, 2006)

SickGame said:


> The raptors strategy throughout the year has been to cover the wingmen superstars of opposing teams with one and one, let them have their shots while focusing on the rest of the squad (ex: New Jersey, Houston etc...). At times it works (ex: MoPe shutting down McGrady) and sometimes it doesn't (ex: Vince). Superstars are going to get their points if they want. Mitchell believes in shutting the rest of the team down and take advantage of that.


mcgrady was aggresively double teamed against the raps...



SickGame said:


> Now some of you are stating that his strategem should have become doubling or tripling Kobe. Usually that's a good idea but in this case, in my opinion, if they started doing so after, let's say after his 50th point, he might've had went on to score more than 81. If you watched the game, Kobe was not only unconscious as a shooter but simply amazing at drawing fouls. He knows he can get the calls and he knows exactly how to sell it. Therefore, what do you do? Put your whole team in foul trouble early and let the whole Laker team hit the free throw line or keep letting Kobe shoot, figuring he's going to have cool down, that no man can keep knocking shots like that, and then pound away offensively.


i think your logic is somewhat flawed...when there are 2 ppl guarding a single man, its easier for each defender to defend as he now has to cover less ground then if he was to guard someone one-on-one..it should follow then that with the lessen defensive responsibilty, the probablility of fouling your man should decrease rather than increase as its easier to keep your man ahead of you when the area u must cover and defend is lessen significantly...


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Petey said:


> They should had fouled him hard each time he drove to the lane, and then smacked him right across the head if that didn't teach him.
> 
> -Petey


You mean take momentum changing flagrant fouls while you have a 10 point lead.

Genius.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by *Turkish Delight !*
> 
> I think you're right TRON, I mean this team lost an exhibition game to a foreign team, Sam should have packed his bags a long time ago.
> 
> People need to start realizing that every time something bad happens, it's not totally Sam Mitchell's fault. *You replace him with any other coach in the NBA, and there wouldn't have been much of a difference with the outcome of last night's game.*


Turk, do I detect a little bit of sarcasm in your post :biggrin: 

you are right though, that Sam does usually get the blame for the bad, and rearly gets the credit when we do good. That's all part of being a head coach, as you represent the team and will take the heat when things go bad

I am not implying by any means that he should be fired now or, months ago for that matter. But all these not so flattering events that have been piling up on his resume should be evaluated when it comes to either hiring a new coach or resigning Sam.

and in response to your last point, I think there might be a coach or two in the league that might disagree with you.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

JuniorNoboa said:


> You mean take momentum changing flagrant fouls while you have a 10 point lead.
> 
> Genius.


Well didn't the Lakers have close to a 40 point swing?

Somewhere were Kobe had tied the game, would had been a great time to just put him down.

-Petey


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

Team Mao said:


> This year's rookies:
> Charlie- Almost no progress in his game thus far
> Joey- no progress in his game
> Jose- almost seems to have regressed since the beginning of the season
> ...


I see some others in this thread have touched on the notion of the 'rookie wall', and I do agree to some extent that the prophesised wall needs to be taken into consideration. 

First off, what are we, 15-16 weeks into the season? That's what? Roughly half way through the basketball year? Now for you to straight up come out and declare, in a rather generalised way, that none of our rookies bar Bosh have 'progressed' is a big call. A very big call.

Let's look at Charlie. I think it's very easy for you to say that 'yeah, this is where someone like Charlie stands, this is where he has the potential to stand or needs to stand, and this is where he should be standing right now, and I don't think he's there'. Okay, we realise Charlie has his offensive game intact. Not flawless, but it's on par or above par for the NBA, if you will. So then we look at his glaring weaknesses, the parts of his game he needs to work, as all NBA players do. In Charlie's case it's his defense - not outstanding either in college ball, but definitely needs to tighten up on his man in this league.

And yes, I realise he's still not the greatest defensive guy on the court. Hell, lets break even here, he's still not that good at all. And I know that, and you know that, and I'm sure Charlie knows that, and I'm very sure Sam knows that. And I know you, as much as I and the guy next to me, want Charlie to fix that up, to become a better player. But is it reasonable to expect that Charlie show that vast spand of improvement 15 weeks into his NBA rookie year? I certainly don't. I've seen Charlie show in bits and pieces of play that he's got some game on the defensive end. It's not consistent yet, and most of the time it's still not up to the standard that it could and maybe even should be, but it's there, no doubt. And I also have no doubt that his defense is one of the the things Charlie and the coaching staff work on in practice, in the training camp we held prior to the start of the regular season. That's progress to me.

How do you know Charlie isn't working on new offensive moves, learning the tids and tads of the NBA game, the little things to do on the court that don't get recorded in the stat sheet but get recorded in the minds of the coaches and the fans who watch. He may not show it for all the world to see in significant patches yet, but that's time for ya. You seem so sure that Charlie hasn't progressed in his game since he came here. Well I'll be damned if Charlie and the coaching staff have settled on his college game and haven't taught him anything new. Anything. Because Charlie learning new things, even if he only shows it patches, if never, is progress to me.

Same goes for Joey. Yeah, he's brought some of his game over from college and from his young days to this league. And yeah, some of it has translated beautifully - his jumper is still its deadly old self when he gets it going. And again, yeah, there are parts that still need to pick up. His defensive game, so hyped up, may have let some down in terms of fulfilment. He's picking up cheap fouls. But amid all this I can see that he's still learning. He's still coming to terms with what it takes to guard some of those guys out there. He's still learning how to have his way with his man and the officials at the same time. He's progressing.

I've said it so many times in regards to Hoffa that I'll try not to bore you or others with my tired old lines. That being said, I'll just say this: absolutely no progress? That's rubbish. You look at the Hoffa when he first fumbled his way into the league and you look at him now. Easy to say he hasn't done anything because he still sucks right? But who's to say his knowledge of the league and how this game is played hasn't grown in leaps and bounds? Look beyond the issue of where he was drafted and the fact that he's not the NBA calibre guy we have hoped for yet and maybe you'll see, just like me, that's he's actually learning the game. It's a situation that none of us like our young guys to get into, because honestly, we don't draft a guy that high for him to sit and learn. We expected bigger things, and he hasn't delivered. But that's reality, and again, that's progress.

I think I've rambled on enough. Look, Sam has his deficiencies as a coach. I know that. He's not the greatest coach this franchise will ever have, and he probably won't ever be a top coach in this league. I don't doubt that. But please, coming out and basically saying that all these rookies have done nothing with Sam at the head of things is ridiculous. Plain ridiculous. I know you think it's a cheap cop out of the argument, but really, the rookie wall and the learning curve that these guys go through is often a reality. Even 'Bron had his learning curve. Even he took his time to show the more significant steps of progress in his game. His jumper was sketchy when he first got into the league. It took him his whole rookie year and more to get it to where it is now. Same goes for our guys. 15-16 weeks in and you're already calling out Sam for not getting the rookies to show those big steps of improvement.

I'm willing to bet that you see as much as I do of the players. We're both seeing that our rookies aren't on top of things right now, they're going through some lean patches. Their weaknesses are so glarring, so obvious to most of us here. But as much as you consider that to be a sign of no progress, take a moment and think about what goes behind the doors. Do you really think Sam isn't teaching them anything? Do you really think that Sam isn't playing his part in ensuring these guys are improving, progressing their games? Do you really think this is an argument against Sam? 

I don't.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

^^^^^^

Good call, Rhubarb. I don't see what goes on behind closed doors in practices. None of us do, but what I've seen on the court has been very little to no improvement in the rookies, and Sam giving them very little opportunity to show anything.

One thing I brought up in the past, was our tough schedule early when are rookies were given big minutes. Where most coaches don't give rookies big minutes right away and ease them into the league a little, Sam simply threw them into the fire. When they got burned, he decided to give the vets the minutes back to the vets for the easy stretch in the schedule. That to me seems like a development method that is doomed to bring little positive results.

Okay, my call on Hoffa was harsh. I did see some progress early in the season. However, I just think Hoffa will not succeed here with Mitchell as coach.

Finally, I think my biggest problem with Sam is that he doesn't put the rookies/young players in a position to show off their strengths. He constantly tries to put the square peg into the round hole. Yes, the players need to develop all around games, but don't ignore the strengths they have, let them use those and build some confidence at the pro level. I just don't see much confidence in the faces of Hoffa, Charlie, Joey or Jose this season, some of that is their mental makeup but I think some of that is the coaching.


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## 85 lakers (Dec 22, 2005)

You can't fire a coach after 1 game, but I'd rather lose 10 in a row than to let a guy drop 81 on me.

When you see him in the zone, you start rushing doubles at him the second he touches the ball. Chris Mihm can drop 30 on the Raptors, who cares. You do not let a guy score 81.
If Kobe is splitting the doubles and generally making everything he throws up, then you simply pull a ball-u-man, where you have a defender IN HIS JERSEY all over the court. Never letting up.

81 is unacceptable.

All the momentum the Raptors built up in recent weeks is gone.


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

Team Mao said:


> Good call, Rhubarb. I don't see what goes on behind closed doors in practices. None of us do, but what I've seen on the court has been very little to no improvement in the rookies, and Sam giving them very little opportunity to show anything.


That's just a matter of opinion then, no? I agree, the improvement isn't substantial, but it's enough to warrant me disagreeing with your earlier argument of Sam having a "poor record at developing young players". On one count I don't agree with that statement at all, and secondly, I think it's far too early to even be stating it.

Sam's rotations are one thing, but even so, the rookies are now in a position to earn their minutes. If they're struggling, they shouldn't be seeing the 30 odd mins of court time they previously saw. Of course, there is the odd occasion that Sam chooses to pull the plug on them even when they aren't necessarily sucking it up, but that's just one of those Sam things I suppose. Again, it's a matter of what spin you put on it - for me, I don't think them not getting the minutes to shine is the point of the matter.



Team Mao said:


> One thing I brought up in the past, was our tough schedule early when are rookies were given big minutes. Where most coaches don't give rookies big minutes right away and ease them into the league a little, Sam simply threw them into the fire. When they got burned, he decided to give the vets the minutes back to the vets for the easy stretch in the schedule. That to me seems like a development method that is doomed to bring little positive results.


Certainly it goes against the grain of traditionalist methods of handling rookies, but then again, putting as many rookies as we have on the squad is usually unheard of as well.

I can't justify Sam's reasoning for it as well as anyone else can, mainly seeing as it's something I don't believe we can judge and subsequently crucify/praise him until down the track. As I said earlier, it's barely half way through the season. Maybe they have hit the rookie wall abit earlier due to Sam's methods, and maybe they haven't. Too early to make any call.

Look, I acknowledge that Sam has his weaknesses as a coach, and yes, some of them are glarring in comparison to the other NBA coaches around him. But a bad developer of players is not one of them, at least not yet.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

> But a bad developer of players is not one of them, at least not yet.


What would you point to as an example of Mitchell being successful in terms of developing youth?


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Miami's Antoine Walker put it more bluntly.
> 
> "The defense has to do something," Walker said. "Somebody gets 81 on me, I'm going to clothesline him."


Apparently Walker agrees.

-Petey


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

Team Mao said:


> What would you point to as an example of Mitchell being successful in terms of developing youth?


Well, there is a player on this team who should be going to the All Star Game this year. Sam Mitchell should get at least some credit with that young man's development, shouldn't he?


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## [email protected] (Sep 27, 2005)

85 lakers said:


> You can't fire a coach after 1 game, but I'd rather lose 10 in a row than to let a guy drop 81 on me.
> 
> When you see him in the zone, you start rushing doubles at him the second he touches the ball. Chris Mihm can drop 30 on the Raptors, who cares. You do not let a guy score 81.
> If Kobe is splitting the doubles and generally making everything he throws up, then you simply pull a ball-u-man, where you have a defender IN HIS JERSEY all over the court. Never letting up.
> ...


i'd almost prefer seeing like 8 guys foul out of the game than see kobe drop 81


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

remember our coaching staff wanted to turn Bosh into a small forward for some reason?

glad that idea didn't stick lol


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Petey said:


> Apparently Walker agrees.
> 
> -Petey


"But who cares about how our team feels or how the league will view that game. We were just glad to have been part of something memorable." - So-called rational Raptor fan.


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## TDrake (Jun 8, 2003)

All I can say is, I thought we were supposed to be building a team with some toughness - not thugs, but guys with some "edge" to them. Well, its pretty obvious now that we're nowhere near there in terms of character. I don't know where the blame for this particular fiasco lies, but all of the management, coaches and players better take a good look in the mirror. 

There've been a lot of positives to the team this season - and a lot of negatives too - but the bottom line for me is that I can put up with a lot of growing pains and rookie mistakes and yadda yadda but I won't support a team that just rolls over the way the Raps did against the Lakers. 

Stand up for yourselves or get the hell outta town!


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

trick said:


> "But who cares about how our team feels or how the league will view that game. We were just glad to have been part of something memorable." - So-called rational Raptor fan.


Really?

Is that you?

That's another way to look at it.

Maybe it'll be like a wake up call and really push the team the rest of the way through?

-Petey


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Petey said:


> Really?
> 
> Is that you?
> 
> ...


Nah, that's not me. Just some posts I've seen through various forums that I feel are completely -ish.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

Turkish Delight said:


> Well, there is a player on this team who should be going to the All Star Game this year. Sam Mitchell should get at least some credit with that young man's development, shouldn't he?


Sam didn't have a chance to destroy him as a rookie


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

Team Mao said:


> What would you point to as an example of Mitchell being successful in terms of developing youth?


Turk's mentioned Chris already. Matt's another I think has improved in various facets of his game since Sam's come along. Hoffa's better than he was when he first walked into the ACC, as little and pathetic that may seem.

I can't say either Charlie, Joey, or Jose have in the same way you can't say Sam has 'screwed' their development. Too early to tell.

All in all, I think it's a weak argument in your case against Sam.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

Rhubarb,
You still haven't been able to give me much in terms of positive coaching attributes. You've challenged my point that Sam is not good in terms of player development, and I won't stop believing that until he retracts his 'you can't teach rebounding and defence' comment.

So what does he do well?


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

Team Mao said:


> Rhubarb,
> You still haven't been able to give me much in terms of positive coaching attributes. You've challenged my point that Sam is not good in terms of player development, and I won't stop believing that until he retracts his 'you can't teach rebounding and defence' comment.
> 
> So what does he do well?


Why have I needed to when my only point has been to challenge your development statement?

If you're basing all of this on a quote, which I personally haven't heard or read, and heaven knows what media sensationalism goes on around there, then I think that further illustrates how weak an argument it is.

As far as my feelings toward Sam go, I do believe charlz summed it all up fairly well in his post in your other Mitchell thread:



charlz said:


> The damage was done in Nov. with Sam. He has improved and I would expect that <b>Keady</b> has helped to fill in some of the glaring holes in Sam's witless gameplanning.
> 
> It is hard to say they should fire him now - this is his baby let him ride it to the end so we know difinitively if sam is:
> 
> ...


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

Last question, would you keep him around for next year?


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

Team Mao said:


> Last question, would you keep him around for next year?


Ask me at the seasons end.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

Still dreaming of playoffs? Or youth movement?


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