# One must go: Odom or Brand?



## Quasi-Quasar (Jul 18, 2002)

With essentially every Clipper except for Olowokantwalknow, the team's chemistry is aweful. It's hard to tell if Maggette concentrating on scoing more, but I'm pretty sure that isn't it. Q is getting back into form and shape after extending his mourning (for DMiles) period up until about 3 weeks ago, so he isn't it. Jaric hasn't been getting minutes despite being healthy, and has done great in the last 2 games with 19-7-2-2 and 9-5-3-2-1 both on good shooting (5-8 3s), so he's not it. Kandi is not it because he hasn't been playing. Miller is part of the problem but not all of it, and although he is aweful and should be traded, he's not the whole problem. Dooling is still inconsistant and doesn't like to pass but he's not the problem. It comes down to Odom and Brand. I think Odom has the ability to play with other stars while Brand doesn't...So it come down to, for the sake of winning, Odom or Brand?

Who do you pick? Personally I'd like to keep Odom and trade Brand, because Brand has limited potential because of his height and natural abilities while Odom is finally back on track developing into something special. Also the prospects of getting Darko Milicic rise astronomically if Brand is a trading option.
Here's a little break down of either scenario:

Keep Odom:
Brand just isn't a winner, you can't center a team on a 6-7 PF who cannot necessarly take a buzzer beater or any decisive shot or even take over a game because his range is limited. Odom has the clutch ability and can make the buzzer beating outside shot or take over a game.Also Odom is Sterling's favorite and probably has the best chance at being resigned. Assuming Miller is traded somewhere before the deadline (I've heard Detroit is calling in) that leaves Odom, Maggette, Q, Jaric, Dooling, Ely, Rooks, Piatkowski, Fowlkes, Wang, Wilcox and Brand. Now I think (and many others share this view) that Emeka Okafor whould be the Clippers' 1st pick even if they have to trade down a bit. With that said, if Brand were to be traded who would work. Now if you've read my other posts you'd know I love Darko Milicic, so I would trade Brand and Wilcox for Milicic and something. Darko, Odom, and Jaric is the ultimate trio. 3 guys 6-7, 6-10 and 7-0 all are versitile and can play inside and out...kind of reminds me of the Mavs big 3 supersized. 

Keep Brand:
Odom is a FORMER junkie. But so what? Odom won 36 games with all rookies and 3rd stringers 2 seasons ago and Brand won 39 with a more developed team. So why keep Brand? Simple consistancy and personality. Brand is a model player, and is one of the 3 most consistant NBA players (Duncan and KG the other 2). Also Brand leads the league in O-rebs, but for the Q fans out there, if Q started and played 32 min per game he could lead the league in O-rebs. Brand has also become a better shot-blocker recently. Also Odom commands the ball too much and throws the other guys off. Brand is a good low post pressence and seems to be the only guy Miller will pass to. Keeping Brand and trading Odom means the Clipps need a SF (assuming they draft Okafor to play C). Who does that leave? Signing a 2nd string caliber FA like Jon Bender or trading Odom for a SF like Mike Miller or maybe a young rookie or draftee with potential. Or does Wilcox move to SF even though he can't hit a jumper? That leaves Brand, Mags, Q, Dooling, Jaric, Ely, Wilcox, Wang, Rooks, Piatkowski, Fowlkes.


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## 777 (Dec 14, 2002)

sorry this is off topic, but how come Odom didn't play tonight?


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>333</b>!
> sorry this is off topic, but how come Odom didn't play tonight?


Sore Ankle


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## madmaxmedia (Feb 4, 2003)

*Hard to say right now-*

I'm a real big LO fan, but his play has slipped of late. I was hoping that he would have improved his jumper, as that would really turn him into a huge offensive threat. But his shooting is still hit-and-miss. His assists have dropped off although that is understandable with Miller, but he still makes more mistakes than I'd like.

Brand is practically the opposite of LO, all hard work and effort (not that LO doesn't work hard though!) He is a little undersized, but his reach is actually good with his wingspan.

Which to keep? Ideally both, it just depends on what offers these guys get. If Odom only gets a decent offer, the Clips will be able to afford to match and keep him.

Oh BTW, the Clips won 30 games in his second year, not 36. It was a great year though! I went to 6 or 8 games at Staples.

I also don't consider Lamar a junkie, but I don't consider pot-smoking that big a deal.


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## Dirtybirds81 (Sep 1, 2002)

Odom to NY! Come home Lamar and bring Elton with you!


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## Bulls4Life (Nov 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TheGoods</b>!
> Brand just isn't a winner, you can't center a team on a 6-7 PF who cannot necessarly take a buzzer beater or any decisive shot or even take over a game because his range is limited.






HA HA!!!!!
      

this is why Bulls fans were happy with the Chandler trade because Bland is not a Franchise Player. He's a solid citizen and a class act on and off the court, but not someone that will lead you to the promised land at a position manned by the likes of Garnett, Duncan, McDyess, Rasheed Wallace and in the future Kwame Brown, Amare Stoudamire and Tyson Chandler!


By the way, I haven't seen Bland since you guys got him but when he was a Bull he had inflated rebounding stats. What I mean is if he had 12 rebounds, 3 or 4 would be off missed free throws and at least 3 or more would be from his own missed shots (sometimes on 1 possession!) And how has he done going head-to-head against the players listed above? With us he always had problems with players that were 6-10 or taller because he could not get his shot off as freely against them (Horace Grant used to OWN Bland!) What's funny is I've only heard good things about Bland in LA LA Land and how we must have been crazy to trade a 20-10 guy for a HS kid. If you've seen Chandler's play since the All-Star break you know that maybe YOU guys were the crazy ones!


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## Im The One (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dirtybirds81</b>!
> Odom to NY! Come home Lamar and bring Elton with you!


Dirtybird go away, and take Fatdaddy with you!

jk:grinning:


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## madmaxmedia (Feb 4, 2003)

*Brand-*



> Originally posted by <b>Bulls4Life</b>!
> HA HA!!!!!
> 
> 
> ...


First of all, if there's a single 'winner' on this team, it's Elton Brand (responding to the previous post.) In his first season the Clips won 39 games, which was a significant improvement over the 30 games a year before. MY favorite player on the team is Lamar Odom, but to be honest I've been pretty disappointed by his play this year.

Elton Brand is not the biggest power forward and is not Tracy McGrady, but he is one of the best PF's in the game, and well-deserving of a sizeable contract.

To say his rebounding stats are 'inflated' is a very dubious claim. It's not like only Elton Brand gets credited for rebounding missed free throws. EVERYONE gets a few that way. OTOH, EB gets a LOT of hustle rebounds and points.

My point is not to say whether the EB trade was good or bad- this basketball trade was done for many different reasons. I'm happy to see Tyson Chandler do well, after all the Clips almost kept him. But to say that a team should trade EB because he is not a franchise player is stupid. Should you also trade Jalen Rose because he's not Michael Jordan? This trade had more to do with EB's contract situation. Personally, I think EB would be an ideal second player to go with a big scorer at SF or SG. So in that sense I agree with you, but certainly not to use it as a criticism of EB.

Also, to mention Kwame Brown and franchise player in the same sentence is absolutely absurd. He may turn out fine, but just because a guy is 7' and atheletic in itself doesn't mean much. I know he's got potential, but very little has been realized.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

If you watched the lakergame you saw how when Elton and Lamar play two man ball, or are on the break together, they are awesome. It doesn't matter what two defenders match up against them they can't handle them. I think they need the rest of the year and the offseason to play together, before one or the other should go. But I definately think they play with little emotion, due to the situation their owner has caused, and the lack of leadership from gentry.


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> If you watched the lakergame you saw how when Elton and Lamar play two man ball, or are on the break together, they are awesome. It doesn't matter what two defenders match up against them they can't handle them. I think they need the rest of the year and the offseason to play together, before one or the other should go. But I definately think they play with little emotion, due to the situation their owner has caused, and the lack of leadership from gentry.


I agree with this statement 100%. You guys keep searching for scapegoats on this team without addressing the direct root of the problem which ClipShow just did: ownership and leadership issues.

A Chicago fan states some information about Brand when he was with Chicago which I do not believe. But, even if it was true, Brand was a rookie/young inexperienced player when he played for Chicago and since he left has become an all-star and put up a very consistent and respectible high double-doubles. He is amazingly versatile on the court and has provided decent leadership traits since his Duke days. This is a player that will do nothing but get better over the years. Why are teams lining up to pay him the MAX this summer, in a luxary tax environment nonetheless, if he is not the real deal.

BTW, I watch alot of Bulls basketball on league pass, including when Brand was on the team, and I don't remember these inflated stats that he is talking about. Yes, he gets rebounds off his own misses and off of missed free throws but name me one PF in the league that doesn't. Also, Brand was an amazing rookie with the BULLS (CO-ROY with Francis) and has done nothing but improve over the years IMO.

Get Odom and Brand away from Sterling's madness and I guarantee that you guys will be very disappointed and shocked with how well they do. Sadly, the same is going to hold true for Kandi.


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Bulls4Life</b>!
> 
> What's funny is I've only heard good things about Bland in LA LA Land and how we must have been crazy to trade a 20-10 guy for a HS kid. If you've seen Chandler's play since the All-Star break you know that maybe YOU guys were the crazy ones!


Please...... Yes, Ty has played well since the all-star break and is showing consistent promise and hope that he will materialize into a respectible player in this league. But, after the start of this season and his lackluster performance during the rook/sophmore game, I will be the first to say thank god! It is about time! Yes, he is young and gifted. But, until very very recently he has not shown any signs of toughness, leadership and desire on the court. So, hopefully his play of late will remain for the duration.

As for the trade, don't get your jockeys running yet. You still gave up an amazing and versatile player that won ROY and has done nothing but improve every year and become an All-Star. Place Brand in a better environment away from Sterling and surrounded by a better cast and he will get his due respect and hype.


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## (-) 0 † § I-I () † (Jun 11, 2002)

*.....*

Maybe Odom to Philly rumors will open up again. I think this guy has loads of potential that is yet to be shown. But then again I dont see him much. If I had to go with Odom or Brand I would go with Brand at the right price, he certainly doesnt deserve the max, hes a better then quality power forward who is an overacheiver. But Odom is a big question mark, will you ever see what he compeltely has??????????


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

*Re: .....*



> Originally posted by <b>(-) 0 † § I-I () †</b>!
> I would go with Brand at the right price, he certainly doesnt deserve the max, hes a better then quality power forward who is an overacheiver.


LOL! Brand is a 6'8" PF that plays in the western conferance which is loaded at that position and he has a career average of 19 pts and 11 rebounds.

He was an All-Star last season, Co-ROY three seasons ago and has nothing but up side if he is placed within a legit organization and surrounded by a better cast of players that are not all playing during a contract yr at the exact same time.

So, why is Brand an overachiever?


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## (-) 0 † § I-I () † (Jun 11, 2002)

*...*

I say hes an overacheiver for these reasons. 

1. He is 6'8. You have to remember TMAC is 6'8, Lebron is 6'8. Going against guys like Tim Duncan, KG, WEbber, all who have size and to defend them well is very impressive. 

2. Coming out of college he had no face up game. And though his face up game is not anything to brag about right now, he has sruvived with quite strong numbers being undersized. 


I think he is a very good player right now, and the contract year does hurt alot of players. But I certainly dont think he deserves the max, regardless of who he plays with he doesnt have the skill of KG, Timmy D, Kobe, TMAC. Nor does he have the flashiness to bring in fans (which also contributes to contracts )

When I said he was an overacheiver it wasn't meant to sound like he has a downside, I was saying it as if how much better will he get, all the questions coming out about his face up game and his height have been answered by his ability to survive by playing strong his way.


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

*Re: ...*



> Originally posted by <b>(-) 0 † § I-I () †</b>!
> I say hes an overacheiver for these reasons.
> 
> 1. He is 6'8. You have to remember TMAC is 6'8, Lebron is 6'8. Going against guys like Tim Duncan, KG, WEbber, all who have size and to defend them well is very impressive.
> ...


I definately understand now what you meant - using the term overachiver in a positive light - thank you for the clarification.

I can see why you feel that Brand is not worth the MAX when compared to players such as Duncan and KG. But, I personally do not believe that all PF can be compared this way. As we both agree, Brand has amazing stats at the most dominant position in the western conference when he is giving up on average 2 inches against his opponent.

Also, it is difficult to truly judge his abilities when he has been forced to spend his entire career till this point on the Bulls and Clippers. I am pretty positive that if a coach such as Jerry Sloan or Pat Riley gets a hold of Brand this summer then we will see a completely different player. When on a team where the supporting cast will play traditional inside/outside and rely on just 2 stars then Brand will shine.

Lastly, you should see some Clippers games this season because his "face up" has significantly improved in the low block from what I have been watching.

BTW, "flashiness" doesn't really factor into giving a player a MAX contract. It is pure ability and having traits that can lift a team, which I see Brand having once he gets away from Sterling. If "flashiness" was really a factor then players such as Ricky Davis would have gotten significantly more.

Bottom line: next season, if Brand can get away from Sterling's grasp, we will see whether he is the real deal or not. But, ignoring his career stats at the most dominant position in the game today while he is under sized is just foolish IMO.


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## (-) 0 † § I-I () † (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: ...*



> Originally posted by <b>JerryMaGuire</b>!
> 
> 
> I definately understand now what you meant - using the term overachiver in a positive light - thank you for the clarification.
> ...


Yes the Clippers are a tough team to play on , I think Brand would be great in a Detroit like role , where he can be the star on a team with veteran role players who know what they are doing. Everyone plays their role, and defense is the key. Brand has always been a hussler, certainly deserving a big contract, but I am still iffy if hes worth the max.

Regarding the flashiness point, you also have to look at it from Donald Sterlings view, as far as I am aware this guy is in it for the money, always has been. Brand will not draw as many fans as some other guys do. 

Once again Ill bring up Detroit because I love how they were made. For an owner who was more about winning then money, he would be a perfect fit, but other the Detroit whose full . maybe Miami, and maybe a replacement for Malone in Utah, I dont see teams pursuing him for the max. 

I do like you point about where he plays and against who he plays. Obviously if Elton was back in the east, he would be the most dominant power forward. Guys like Martin , Rahim, are probably his only other top guys but they dont even rank with KG, Webber, Duncan. (BTW I think Gooden will be good, I really like him and he could become something)

I still think we know what we will get from Brand, but not from Odom. I dont know if Odom will ever be close to what Brand is numbers wise, but Sterling may not want to give up yet.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: ...*



> Originally posted by <b>JerryMaGuire</b>!
> 
> Lastly, you should see some Clippers games this season because his "face up" has significantly improved in the low block from what I have been watching.


In the words of Ralph Lawler "Bingo". He's got a nice face up jumper with some range too.

Also Elton, now that he is fitter and faster, does have flashy dunks, and whats great is like against the lakers when it was obvious he was going up for a dunk nobody even tried to block it. Everyone knows Elton goes full steam every minute he's on the court. Also have you noticed how many blocks he gets? On the bulls boards people go "ya but Elton will never be intimidating, while Tyson already is".....aaaahh no. Ask the guys on the Lakers if they weren't intimidated.


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: ...*



> Originally posted by <b>(-) 0 † § I-I () †</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes the Clippers are a tough team to play on , I think Brand would be great in a Detroit like role , where he can be the star on a team with veteran role players who know what they are doing. Everyone plays their role, and defense is the key. Brand has always been a hussler, certainly deserving a big contract, but I am still iffy if hes worth the max.
> ...


I definately agree with your Detroit comment that Brand would be excellent in a situation where he is surrounded by veteran role players that understand their job and a concrete system. But, this just makes me think more highly of Brand and the fact that he deserves close to MAX dollars this summer.

And regarding drawing fans: I disagree with this. Clipper's attendance and hopes increased significantly when Brand was added to the team. Also, I believe that winning is what draws fans and flashiness is what keeps them through losing times (which isn't even that proven given how empty the Gund arena is with Ricky Davis every night).

Add Brand to Utah or Miami and if winning happens under the tutiledge of Sloan or Riley and I really see the fans coming out to support the team. Your example of Detroit proves my point: there is not one bona fide true flashy star on the Pistons roster (maybe excluding Ben Wallance and it is a stretch to really call him exciting and flashy). Yet, they win consistently and are now challenging to come out of the east. Their attendance is sky high on average for this season (4th best in the league) all because they have a team that competes and wins. No Flash, No gimmicks, No tricks. Just pure winning. In fact, their average attendance the last two season is better than the last season that Grant Hill was on their roster.

Good debate and good points. But, I have to take off now so we can pick this up another time.


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: ...*



> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> In the words of Ralph Lawler "Bingo". He's got a nice face up jumper with some range too.
> ...


I agree with this assessment of Brand 100%. Good points Clip Show. See you guys tomorrow


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## JoeF (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: ...*



> Originally posted by <b>JerryMaGuire</b>!
> Add Brand to Utah or Miami and if winning happens under the tutiledge of Sloan or Riley and I really see the fans coming out to support the team.


In Utah excitement/flash might help temporarily but nothing other than a return to the top will have lasting affect. Utah fans were spoiled by success like the trips to the finals, have been disappointed with mediocrity and will return in full force when they think they are a contender for the title again.


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ...*



> Originally posted by <b>JoeF</b>!
> 
> 
> In Utah excitement/flash might help temporarily but nothing other than a return to the top will have lasting affect. Utah fans were spoiled by success like the trips to the finals, have been disappointed with mediocrity and will return in full force when they think they are a contender for the title again.


I definately agree with this statement and this is the point that I was attempting to get across. The same holds true for the Miami area after they have been spoiled with a strong Alonzo Mourning and five straight division championships. Building a contender again will help both these markets and IMO Brand is a great piece for either team to start building around.


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## Bulls4Life (Nov 13, 2002)

*Like It Or Not..........*

ANY TEAM that give a MAX contract to Elton Bland will NEVER, and Ill repeat that for emphasis, NEVER WIN A TITLE with him as their starter!




In fact, to take it one step further, Bland will NEVER win a title as a starter! If he wins one he will do it as a reserve on good team towards the end of his career when he turns into the next Charles Oakley!


Right now his is the second coming of Buck Williams!


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

*Re: Like It Or Not..........*



> Originally posted by <b>Bulls4Life</b>!
> ANY TEAM that give a MAX contract to Elton Bland will NEVER, and Ill repeat that for emphasis, NEVER WIN A TITLE with him as their starter!
> 
> 
> ...


Ahhh.... the great crystal ball forecasts. I love these on message boards.

Next, you are going to amazingly fill us in that any team with Tyson Chandler will win a title.


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

*Re: Like It Or Not..........*



> Originally posted by <b>Bulls4Life</b>!
> ANY TEAM that give a MAX contract to Elton Bland will NEVER, and Ill repeat that for emphasis, NEVER WIN A TITLE with him as their starter!
> 
> 
> ...


BTW, it is not just about teams willing to give Brand the MAX. It is also about teams willing to give Brand below the MAX but what he deserves and then surrounding him with a great system, coaching staff and supporting cast. If this happens then lets see what happens. Because as of right now we are both just speculating. I am using his development and stats since he was a rookie and you are using a crystal ball but still it is all speculation until next season.


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## PrimeTime (Jan 11, 2003)

Elton Brand will win his 1st NBA Championship next year!

The Spurs will be saying goodbye to David Robinson & are capable of offering Elton Brand the salary needed.

C-Tim Duncan
PF-Elton Brand

This will be the BEST C & PF DUO the league will see!

the FUNDAMENTAL boys!


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PrimeTime</b>!
> Elton Brand will win his 1st NBA Championship next year!
> 
> The Spurs will be saying goodbye to David Robinson & are capable of offering Elton Brand the salary needed.
> ...


Excellent points. But, the only problem I see is that Duncan's natural and preferable position is power forward rather than center. 

Therefore, he may have some say this summer in whether the SPURS pursue a power forward like Brand or a center such as Kandi or Brad Miller.


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## PrimeTime (Jan 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JerryMaGuire</b>!
> 
> 
> Excellent points. But, the only problem I see is that Duncan's natural and preferable position is power forward rather than center.
> ...


If that's the case, I would shoot for Brad Miller....he's the SOLID CENTER that Tim Duncan would need to compliment him on his PF spot...the Kandi Man seems like the unlikely partner for Timmy...but we shall all see.


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## PrimeTime (Jan 11, 2003)

on second thought.......get a defensive CENTER to give Timmy more OFFENSIVE prowless and less to worry about on DEFENSE...Tim's very good defensively and can hold his own, but getting a defensive CENTER would pretty much set this team on a good note of a Championship....i.e. Theo Ratliff, Deke Mutombo....


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PrimeTime</b>!
> 
> 
> If that's the case, I would shoot for Brad Miller....he's the SOLID CENTER that Tim Duncan would need to compliment him on his PF spot...the Kandi Man seems like the unlikely partner for Timmy...but we shall all see.


Excellent points. I agree with most of your points.


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