# Peter May's Point Guard List



## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

In Peter May's column in today's Boston Globe there is a list (without any accompanying commentary) of the pgs available in the draft. Strangely, Kirk Hinrich, Troy Bell and Hollis Price are not on the list. Perhaps Hinrich and Bell are viewed as sgs, but that is somehat curious, since both Marcus Hatten and Reese Gaines are listed, and neither one of them is a pure pg either. Gaines is a nice player, though, and I should have included him on the list I posted here. Along with Marcus Moore, he is a player I would take ahead of Hinrich or Ridnour. As for Price, maybe the consensus is that he's not in the top 58. But Steve Blake and a couple of other guys on May's list are probably not in the top 58 either. May also thinks Ridnour will be a lottery pick. I hope he is right, because that will be one less chance for the Celtics to make a mistake.

Obviously May thinks they ought to draft a pg, which confirms my view that he would not know a basketball if it bounced up and hit him in the nose. He thinks they should trade Antoine, too. 

In any event, next week he should publish the list of free agent NBA pgs available for 2003-2004. That might make folks think twice about the need to draft a pg.


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## BleedGreen (Jun 24, 2002)

I've been thinking about this... There really is no point in drafting a PG. I dont think any of them is gonna be as good as Bremer is. And I doubt that they will make an impact this year. So we should sign a free agent that has some experience and will make a difference this year.

May is stupid. Walker WILL NOT be traded. I dont think the Celtics are going to draft a PG unless someone really good slips to them.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Just don't listen to Peter May, he doesn't know what he is saying.

Guys we DO NEED a PG, I would love to draft one but I think they'll all be gone by the time we pick, we would need then to turn our attention to the FA's, one FA who sould be on top of our list is----Kenny Anderson, yes I don't like him either but he DOES know our system, he WON'T be asking for much, he KNOWS his role on this team.


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## CelticsRule (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> Just don't listen to Peter May, he doesn't know what he is saying.
> 
> Guys we DO NEED a PG, I would love to draft one but I think they'll all be gone by the time we pick, we would need then to turn our attention to the FA's, one FA who sould be on top of our list is----Kenny Anderson, yes I don't like him either but he DOES know our system, he WON'T be asking for much, he KNOWS his role on this team.


Is that you aqua:grinning:


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pantha348</b>!
> I've been thinking about this... There really is no point in drafting a PG. I dont think any of them is gonna be as good as Bremer is. And I doubt that they will make an impact this year. So we should sign a free agent that has some experience and will make a difference this year.
> 
> May is stupid. Walker WILL NOT be traded. I dont think the Celtics are going to draft a PG unless someone really good slips to them.


You don't think any of the PG's in the draft will be better than Bremer?!?


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## CelticsRule (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> You don't think any of the PG's in the draft will be better than Bremer?!?


I think he means ones the Celtics coul take at their spot, or in their rookie year they won't be better than Bremer was in his


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>celticsrule0873</b>!
> 
> 
> I think he means ones the Celtics coul take at their spot, or in their rookie year they won't be better than Bremer was in his


They could still get someone like Hinrich or Ridnour, or Barbosa (I haven't seen this guy, but he's supposed to be good), at their spot. All of whom I think will be MUCH better than Bremer. But who knows.


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## CelticsRule (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> They could still get someone like Hinrich or Ridnour, or Barbosa (I haven't seen this guy, but he's supposed to be good), at their spot. All of whom I think will be MUCH better than Bremer. But who knows.


Of those thee the only one we have a chance of getting is Hinrich, who I don't really like.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> You don't think any of the PG's in the draft will be better than Bremer?!?


As a distributor in the half court offense, yes. As the middle man on the break, maybe (but Bremer usually makes good decisions). As a finisher going to the rim, probably. As a mid-range jump shooter, maybe. As a three-point shooter, no. As a free throw shooter, yes (but only because of Troy Bell) On defense, probably not. As a total package, maybe.

Bremer was the 4th leading scorer in the country as a college senior. There is not a single pg in this year's draft with scoring credentials like that, with the possible exception of Marcus Hatten. Is Bremer a very good NBA pg? No. Is he a better player than Jay Williams, who was drafted #2? Yes.

Bremer is tough and coachable, and I think he will improve with experience.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> As a distributor in the half court offense, yes. As the middle man on the break, maybe (but Bremer usually makes good decisions). As a finisher going to the rim, probably. As a mid-range jump shooter, maybe. As a three-point shooter, no. As a free throw shooter, yes (but only because of Troy Bell) On defense, probably not. As a total package, maybe.
> ...


Bremer only shot 35% from 3's this year, Hinrich and Ridnour both have the potential to be better than that. They may not have those type of scoring credentials, but that's because they went to major universities and not St. Bonaventure. Bremer's a good role player, but that's all he is and all he'll ever be. He's not a PG you want in the starting lineup, Ridnour and Hinrich both have the talent to be that.

And as much as I dislike Jay Williams, he's going to be a much better player in this league then Bremer, unless he loses all confidence in himself.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

The Bonnies actually play a pretty decent schedule-- unless the players are in revolt, of course. 

Jay Williams may never be as good as Bremer. Williams doesn't defend and you don't want the ball in his hands at the end of the game because he can't make his free throws. 

Statistics are misleading. Bremer was something like 0 for 15 from beyond the arc before he got a chance to play regularly. After he started getting regular minutes his shooting improved. My problem with Bremer's offense is that he needs to penetrate and dish more. Also, when he penetrates he relies almost exclusively on his left hand. He must learn to go the other way.
Maybe the Celtics have some old Nate Archibald tapes that he could watch.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> The Bonnies actually play a pretty decent schedule-- unless the players are in revolt, of course.
> 
> Jay Williams may never be as good as Bremer. Williams doesn't defend and you don't want the ball in his hands at the end of the game because he can't make his free throws.
> ...


True, but Bremer didn't shoot well in the playoffs from the arc, unless my memory deceives me (and it's been known to do that). Bremer's a solid player, but he's never going to be a good starting point guard. At least I don't see it happening. He's not the future PG of the Boston Celtics, whereas a guy like Ridnour or Hinrich could be I think. Bremer's a scorer, but not that good of an all-around PG. Hinrich's taller and a better rebounder, could be a better defender, could have a better shot, and is a much better pure PG. And all those same attributes can be said for Ridnour also. I think they'd be a much better fit. Championships can be won without a true PG, I wouldn't call Fisher a true PG but the Lakers won 3 in a row. However, the Lakers had a much better offensive system, as well as Kobe and Shaq. The Celtics don't have a good big man, let alone a Shaq. Nor do they have a good offensive system. I think they'd be much better off picking up Hinrich if he's still available.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

Coulda woulda shoulda. You can always speculate. Every decent college player is going to be a hall of famer in someone's opinion. But the fact is that most of them will not even make an NBA roster.

Bremer has proved that he can play at the NBA level, and more importantly, that he can defend well. That is something that Kenny Anderson (to pick a name out of thin air) could never do. 

Hinrich and Ridnour have proved nothing. If I had a dollar for every "can't miss" college player who flopped in the NBA, I'd be the next Mark Cuban.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> Coulda woulda shoulda. You can always speculate. Every decent college player is going to be a hall of famer in someone's opinion. But the fact is that most of them will not even make an NBA roster.
> 
> Bremer has proved that he can play at the NBA level, and more importantly, that he can defend well. That is something that Kenny Anderson (to pick name out of thin air) could never do.
> ...


You seen so adamently against drafting players. You have no confidence in anyone that hasn't already proven at the next level that they can play. I just don't get it. You'd rather have Antonio Daniels than Andre Miller, you'd rather have JR Bremer than Kirk Hinrich or Luke Ridnour. *shrugs* I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. There's no way I think the Celtics should pass up on Hinrich because he's an unproven rookie, in favor of Bremer. And I don't think the front office would do that, but I could be wrong.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> You seen so adamently against drafting players. You have no confidence in anyone that hasn't already proven at the next level that they can play. I just don't get it. You'd rather have Antonio Daniels than Andre Miller, you'd rather have JR Bremer than Kirk Hinrich or Luke Ridnour. *shrugs* I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this. There's no way I think the Celtics should pass up on Hinrich because he's an unproven rookie, in favor of Bremer. And I don't think the front office would do that, but I could be wrong.


I'm not against drafting players. I'm against drafting undersized unathletic players. The might as well try to re-sign Chris Herren from China or wherever he is playing.

They would not be passing up Hinrich in favor of Bremer. They already have Bremer. They would be passing up Hinrich in favor of a guy who can help in the front court.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not against drafting players. I'm against drafting undersized unathletic players. The might as well try to re-sign Chris Herren from China or wherever he is playing.
> ...


Hinrich is not undersized or unathletic. You don't have to be 6'6'' and have a 40 inch vertical to be a great player in this league. He has all the tools to be a great player in this league, and I'm about 99% sure he'll be a much better player than Bremer. But whatever dude, like I said, we should agree to disagree. You obviously don't get my perspective on these players, and I certainly don't get yours, so we'll just leave it at that. Agreed?


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> But whatever dude, like I said, we should agree to disagree. You obviously don't get my perspective on these players, and I certainly don't get yours, so we'll just leave it at that. Agreed?


Agreed. Go try to peddle Hinrich somewhere else. Maybe Atlanta. Jason Terry is leaving, and their only pg alternatives are the 34 year-old Emmanual Davis and the undersized Dan Dickau. They have the 21st pick.


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## jbs (May 4, 2003)

Hinrich is 6'3 (according to nbadraft.net). That is pretty tall for a point quard.

I had forgot about Chris Herren.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> Agreed. Go try to peddle Hinrich somewhere else. Maybe Atlanta. Jason Terry is leaving, and their only pg alternatives are the 34 year-old Emmanual Davis and the undersized Dan Dickau. They have the 21st pick.


I wasn't trying to "peddle" Hinrich here. I was pointing out he'd make a great fit here, and would be worth the draft pick. Bremer isn't the PG of the future for this team, nor is someone else you wanted like Antonio Daniels or Darrell Armstrong. A guy like Hinrich could be (obviously not a sure thing), and Andre Miller could be as well. But if you're satisfied with Bremer at the point for the next decade, fine. I'm just glad your not in the front office.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> I wasn't trying to "peddle" Hinrich here. I was pointing out he'd make a great fit here, and would be worth the draft pick. Bremer isn't the PG of the future for this team, nor is someone else you wanted like Antonio Daniels or Darrell Armstrong. A guy like Hinrich could be (obviously not a sure thing), and Andre Miller could be as well. But if you're satisfied with Bremer at the point for the next decade, fine. I'm just glad your not in the front office.


I thought we agreed to disagree. Surely you jest. You are a Kansas fan who has been peddling Hinrich and Collison all over basketballboards.net. You have every right to do so and many others would agree with you. I do not.

Kirk Hinrich=Bryce Drew
Nick Collison= Frank Brikowski/Reuben Wolkowyski

As for Bremer, no I am not satisfied. They need another experienced NBA point guard, e.g. Speedy Claxton or Darrell Armstrong (in spite of his age). I'd even be satisfied with Milt Pallacio (also a FA), who played decently when he was here and knows the system.

Andre Miller would never come to Boston in any event. If he did, the Boston fans (who are very knowledgeable) and the sportswriters and radio talk show guys (who are caustic and unforgiving) would run him out of town as soon as the team started losing. It would take the sportswriters awhile to figure out that Miller was the problem, but the fans would know right away.

And even if Hinrich turns out to be a good player, I would still have another bruiser (e.g Mario Austin, David West) or another shooter/slasher (e.g Bris Diaw, Alexander Pavlovik, Rick Richert, Victor Khryapa) in lieu of Hinrich.

I'm sure that if I were in the front office the Celtics would be going down the tubes. But we would be doing so with Richard Jefferson and Tony Parker on the roster.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> I thought we agreed to disagree. Surely you jest. You are a Kansas fan who has been peddling Hinrich and Collison all over basketballboards.net. You have every right to do so and many others would agree with you. I do not.
> ...


If you think Kirk Hinrich is going to be another Bryce Drew, well, I suppose I'll respect that opinion, even though I couldn't possibly disagree more. And if it were just because I'm a Kansas fan than I wouldn't be wanting Ridnour as well. All you want is somebody with experience, regardless of how good they actually are. Milt Palacio? The Celtics won't be ready for the championship by next year anyway, give them a few years and give these youngsters some experience under their belt. I seriously doubt you had Parker pegged as little as you have confidence in PG's that aren't 6 and a half feet tall, especially when there was little info on him at the time. And the way you're satisfied with guys like Bremer or Palacio as starting PG's for this team, and expect those guys to help them get to a championship, then yes, I'm very glad you don't have a spot in the front office. 

And we did agree to disagree, but then you made a comment I didn't care for. I'm not "peddling" anyone as you say. I'm simply stating what I think the best scenarios for this team would be, and trying to figure out what the hell exactly you're thinking. But you can have your opinion, and I can have mine.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> If you think Kirk Hinrich is going to be another Bryce Drew, well, I suppose I'll respect that opinion, even though I couldn't possibly disagree more. ..... ..I seriously doubt you had Parker pegged as little as you have confidence in PG's that aren't 6 and a half feet tall


1. What's wrong with the Bryce Drew comparison? He is the same size as Hinrich and everyone called him the next Stockton. He was taken by Houston at #16 in the 1998 draft, a VERY strong year. That is the year that Pierce slipped to the Celtics at #10. Drew was taken ahead of Nesterovic, Pat Garrity, Ricky Davis (can you believe that?), Brian Skinner, Al Harrington, Nazr Mohammed, Reuben Patterson (#31), Rafer Alston (#34), Shammond Williams (#39), Cuttino Mobley (#41) and Jahidi White (#43). Do you think
Houston would like to have that pick back? At least they had the good sense to snag Mobley.

If I hadn't taken Parker in 2001, I mught have taken Gilbert Arenas instead lol. Actually, in the 2001 draft (a weak draft) the only decent players left at #21 were Jerryl Sasser and a bunch of guards: Parker, Tinsley and Arenas. The only tall guy left was Loren Woods (no thanks!). There are one or two guys from that below #21 group still on someone's roster, but no one is playing significant minutes in the league. So a GM would not have to be a genius to opt for Parker or Arenas over Forte. Alas, Red must have owed someone a favor and he took a bad gamble on Forte because he was from UNC via de Matha.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

big john,your credibility,if you ever had any, is shot.anyone that thinks kirk hinrich isnt any better than bryce drew doesnt know what he's taling about.and your love for j.r. bremer has me baffled,you the guys agent or what?


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> 1. What's wrong with the Bryce Drew comparison? He is the same size as Hinrich and everyone called him the next Stockton. He was taken by Houston at #16 in the 1998 draft, a VERY strong year. That is the year that Pierce slipped to the Celtics at #10. Drew was taken ahead of Nesterovic, Pat Garrity, Ricky Davis (can you believe that?), Brian Skinner, Al Harrington, Nazr Mohammed, Reuben Patterson (#31), Rafer Alston (#34), Shammond Williams (#39), Cuttino Mobley (#41) and Jahidi White (#43). Do you think
> ...


The Bryce Drew comparison isn't good, in my eyes, because he simply isn't as skilled as Hinrich. His stock was severely inflated mainly because of Valpo's Cinderella March Madness and his miracle shot during the tournament. Sometimes GM's can be really dumb. I think most people would agree Hinrich has much more talent than Bryce Drew, and from what everyone who knows him says, he's got an extraordinary work ethic. I can see where it's coming from, both being coach's sons, both being around the same size and have a good stroke. But I just never saw Drew as a very talented player, which Hinrich is.

You may have had him pegged, I don't know. But I just find it hard to believe that you are so skeptical on every other PG under 6 and a half feet coming into the draft, but managed to pick Parker. Although at 21, I suppose that's believable. That was a mediocre draft, especially depth wise (although not as bad as the previous year, what a horrible year that was). But this is besides the point, what I was trying to point out is that you have your opinion and I have mine. I just didn't like the fact you were trying to make it sound like my opinion was less credible. That the only reason I think Hinrich will be good at the next level is because I'm a Jayhawk fan. That's not the case.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> The Bryce Drew comparison isn't good, in my eyes, because he simply isn't as skilled as Hinrich. His stock was severely inflated mainly because of Valpo's Cinderella March Madness and his miracle shot during the tournament. Sometimes GM's can be really dumb. I think most people would agree Hinrich has much more talent than Bryce Drew, and from what everyone who knows him says, he's got an extraordinary work ethic. I can see where it's coming from, both being coach's sons, both being around the same size and have a good stroke. But I just never saw Drew as a very talented player, which Hinrich is.
> ...


At least Drew had a good tournament. Hinrich didn't. I agree that Hinrich is better, because Hinrich is a better defender. But he is the same kind of player. And Drew was a pure point guard, which Hinrich is not.

Bryce Drew is a very skilled player-- otherwise, he would be out of the league. There is not a single player in this draft-- not even Lebron James or Carmello Anthony-who has proved that he can make it in the NBA.

I like little quick point guards who get up and play in an opponent's shirt, like Darrell Brandon or Speedy Claxton. I just don't want to expend a draft pick on one. Unless you are looking at Iverson, Kidd or Marbury, you draft for size in the first round. Virtually every team that has broken that rule has lived to regret it.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rainman</b>!
> big john,your credibility,if you ever had any, is shot.anyone that thinks kirk hinrich isnt any better than bryce drew doesnt know what he's taling about.and your love for j.r. bremer has me baffled,you the guys agent or what?


Bryce Drew has stayed in the league for 5 years. Let's see how long Hinrich lasts.

As for Bremer, he is what he is. Good defender (that means alot in my book) good 3 point shooter, average (or maybe even a little below) otherwise. The question is, will he improve?

I'll tell you one thing. If Bremer had been playing in the Big 12 last year instead of in the NBA he would have been the all conference pg and would have averaged 20 pts and 5-6 assists per game.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> Bryce Drew has stayed in the league for 5 years. Let's see how long Hinrich lasts.
> ...


No, he wouldn't have. I'll leave you to your opinions but that's just not true. Bremer's far from the same class as Hinrich and Ford, and he's not as good a college player as Hollis Price. And your believing Bryce Drew is as talented as Hinrich leads me to believe you've seen him play very little. If we held a nation-wide poll, or even just a poll in these forums, how many people do you think would actually agree with that? Hinrich's got the talent to be an all-star in this league, and I'd be willing to put a lot of money on the table that he'll have a better career than Bryce Drew. Barring an injury, I'm 99.9% sure of it. That's not saying much, but the fact is Hinrich's a very good prospect, all the scouts know it, most fans know it. The Celtics desperately need a player like him, and that's why I feel he'd be the best pick for them for who should still be left on the board (assuming he drops that far).


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> No, he wouldn't have. I'll leave you to your opinions but that's just not true. Bremer's far from the same class as Hinrich and Ford, and he's not as good a college player as Hollis Price. And your believing Bryce Drew is as talented as Hinrich leads me to believe you've seen him play very little. If we held a nation-wide poll, or even just a poll in these forums, how many people do you think would actually agree with that? Hinrich's got the talent to be an all-star in this league, and I'd be willing to put a lot of money on the table that he'll have a better career than Bryce Drew. Barring an injury, I'm 99.9% sure of it. That's not saying much, but the fact is Hinrich's a very good prospect, all the scouts know it, most fans know it. The Celtics desperately need a player like him, and that's why I feel he'd be the best pick for them for who should still be left on the board (assuming he drops that far).


Bremer is not a college player. He is an NBA player. There is a HUGE difference between college and the pros, and even mediocre NBA players are better than all but the very, very best college players. 

There were a slew of very, very good college players at the Chicago pre-draft camp last year and Bremer outplayed most of them. He was also one of the very top players at that camp in the strength and conditioning tests.

There were very, very good college players (and some pro players) in the Shaws league last summer and Bremer outplayed most of them. I saw two of the games. In fact, he was so good that Omar Cook left town in the middle of the tournament because he knew that he was not getting a roster spot.

And after an 82 game season against the best players in the world, Bremer was voted to the NBA all-rookie second team by the NBA coaches. That means he outperformed at least two lottery picks.

So before you annoint Hinrich as a potential NBA all-star who is vastly superior to an "average" NBA pg like Bremer, I suggest you wait until at least the end of the NBA exhibition season. Let's see how good Hinrich looks against Kidd, or Marbury, or Iverson, or Cassell, or Francis or Davis. I wish him luck.

By the way, I agree with you that Hollis Price is an excellent player with great range on his shot and quickness on defense. Given the glut of pgs this year he is likely to go undrafted and he is a guy I would definitely invite to camp if I were Mr. Ainge.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> Bremer is not a college player. He is an NBA player. There is a HUGE difference between college and the pros, and even mediocre NBA players are better than all but the very, very best college players.
> ...


As much as you say Bremer is better than TJ Ford, Kirk Hinrich, Luke Ridnour, etc., you're not going to convince me, the same way I'm not going to convince you. So you're saying the NBA rookies that have great years, would've put up twice the numbers they did in college if they were there that extra year? Caron Butler had a very good rookie year, you're saying if he was still in college he would've averaged in the upper twenties in points? Because he was already a great college player, and then became a very good pro right off the bat. Bremer had a good rookie year but he doesn't have the talent to improve much upon it. I said Hinrich was a POTENTIAL all-star, not a given. That means I didn't annoint him anything but potential. DId I say he would outperform Francis, Iverson, Kidd, Marbury? No, I said he has the potential to be a very good player in this league. If Bremer was in college, you're saying he would've made All-Big 12 over TJ Ford, the National Player of the Year? Because that's what you said. And I also have no doubt in my mind he would've had to take a back seat to both Price and Hinrich, and would've had a tough time even being ahead of someone like Paulding for a guard spot on the second team. 

If you think Bremer's better than Hinrich and always will be, well, fine. But I hope you'll understand if, like most everyone else in the world, I disagree with you.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> As much as you say Bremer is better than TJ Ford, Kirk Hinrich, Luke Ridnour, etc., you're not going to convince me, the same way I'm not going to convince you.


I didn't say that. Who knows how good Hinrich, Ridnour and Ford will be? I don't know, and neither do you. You are the one who is convinced that Bremer is not in the same class with those players. I'm not convinced.

I do feel strongly that none of those guys (except possibly Ford) is in the same league as Kidd, Marbury, Iverson, Payton, Francis, Davis or Cassell. Bremer isn't either, and never will be.

And that's why, with the exception of Ford, who is ultra-quick like Iverson, I would not waste a top 20 draft pick on any those players.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> I didn't say that. Who knows how good Hinrich, Ridnour and Ford will be? I don't know, and neither do you. You are the one who is convinced that Bremer is not in the same class with those players. I'm not convinced.
> ...


I would hesitate to put Ford in the same group as those guys. Yes, he's extremely quick, but he doesn't have much of a jumpshot and is only 5'10''. And I would never predict any of the rookies in this years class (and really any class) to be as good as the guys you mentioned (besides Cassell, and maybe Francis, whom aren't the greatest PG's around IMO). Could one of them be? Sure. But that's certainly a hefty prediction and there's certainly no one that I'm sold enough on to predict that. 

I sm convinced Hinrich and Ford and Ridnour (well, not completely convinced on him, but fairly sure) are better than Bremer. And both Ford and Hinrich would be much better fits for the Celtics, because Bremer isn't a great ball-handler and can't push it up court all that well, whereas both those guys can extremely well. Obviously, barring horrible workouts, Ford will be long gone by the Celtics pick. Hinrich might not be, and I think they should "waste" a pick on him if they have that opportunity.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

Actually Bremer is quite a good ball handler (very good assist to t/o ratio) and does an excellent job distributing in the open floor. He was well coached by someone. Bremer does NOT do a good job of distributing in the half court offense. Part of that is experience, and part of that is his lack of court awareness. The truly great pgs like Kidd have it instinctively; Bremer doesn't.

The Celtics are a terrible fast break team because the guys who should be out on the wing have to stay in and rebound. Their frontcourt is too small. Bremer is not the problem. In the half court offense, Bremer is indeed part of the problem, although he makes up for some of it with his ability to hit the 3.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> Actually Bremer is quite a good ball handler (very good assist to t/o ratio) and does an excellent job distributing in the open floor. He was well coached by someone. Bremer does NOT do a good job of distributing in the half court offense. Part of that is experience, and part of that is his lack of court awareness. The truly great pgs like Kidd have it instinctively; Bremer doesn't.
> 
> The Celtics are a terrible fast break team because the guys who should be out on the wing have to stay in and rebound. Their frontcourt is too small. Bremer is not the problem. In the half court offense, Bremer is indeed part of the problem, although he makes up for some of it with his ability to hit the 3.


You'd be surprised how much better they'd be on the break with a fast PG that can push it up the floor. And Bremer isn't the only problem, the problem is that the Celtics don't have a PG, period. They play Delk, but he's no PG. Bremer's not a PG. I think the Hinrich is a better PG than any big man they could get with that pick, BUT, let's not forget they do have the 20th and 16th pick. If they could pick up a good low post presence as well as a good PG then obviously that'd be a hell of deal. But I think you have to go with Hinrich first unless a great prospect falls.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

1. The best course is to draft two big men. Sign a FA pg with NBA experience and invite the best of the undrafted college pgs to camp.

2. An second alternative is to trade down and swap the 20th pick for a mid range 2nd round pick and a lottery protected first round pick in 2005. Take Sweetney or Austin with #16 and Aswandu-Amade from Wyoming with the second round pick.

3. A third alternative is to take a banger with #16 and a shooter or slasher with #20.

4. A fourth but inferior alternative is to take a banger with one pick and Marcus Moore or Reese Gaines with the other.

That's what they should do in my opinion. They will probably screw it up. By the way, while Chris Wallace is out interviewing for the Portland job, he ought to ask them what it would take to get Damon Stoudamire.


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## KA (Apr 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> I'll tell you one thing. If Bremer had been playing in the Big 12 last year instead of in the NBA he would have been the all conference pg and would have averaged 20 pts and 5-6 assists per game.





> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> So you're saying the NBA rookies that have great years, would've put up twice the numbers they did in college if they were there that extra year?


Actually JR averaged over twenty-four points a game his senior season in college including a 33 point outpouring against a UConn team that was eventually in the elite-8.

I'm probably biased having gone to school with JR, but it happens year after year that highly touted rookies don't pan out. For anyone to make it sound like it is a metaphysical certainty that anyone will be drafted and be an impact player right away because they played on a final four team or come from the Big 12 is silly.

In my opinion the C's should keep Bremer coming off the bench as the backup PG, move Delk over to SG, pick up a veteran to start at PG, and most importantly find a legitimate big man.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KA</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm with you 100% KA.


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## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

Another thing to consider is that even with a great point guard, if the other players don't move without the ball to get open, it won't matter. Jason Kidd is great, but the rest of the Nets run the floor and are constantly moving in the half court offense. Kidd will find them if they're open, but they have to be open. The current Celtics don't have that mindset. It's kind of the chicken and the egg syndrome. A good PG will get you the ball if you move, but the players won't move unless they know they're getting the ball. I think the Celtics are capable of learning, but I'm just saying getting a good PG is only the first step. Incorporating that PG is the bigger step.

I think the Celtics need to take the best available PG or big man when they select. In other words, if there's a great PG available who's better than any big man available, take him. If there's a big man available who's a better player than the best PG available, take him. The draft is a crapshoot, so drafting strictly by position is too risky, especially if you don't have a high pick. If you take the best available, then if it doesn't work out, you still hopefully have someone who's worth something in a trade.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KA</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't say it was a certainty, I said I was convinced of it, and that Hinrich is a much more gifted and natural PG. It's not because he was on a FF team or in the Big 12, it's because if you watch his game he's a great talent. Don't get caught up in the success he had in college, just look at the tools he has at his disposle. But I agree with you, as long as they pick up a GOOD veteran PG. I wouldn't want someone like Antonio Daniels because he wouldn't be an upgrade to this team. Andre Miller isn't a wiley veteran or anything, and may not be a vocal leader, but his game is as good as any PG's around and he'd be the best player that might actually consider coming out of FA this year. Payton and Kidd aren't even going to take a look. Dre's the way to go for free agency, if they can't get him, I suggest taking Hinirich in the draft.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*Since when is J.R. suddenly Bob Cousy?*

JR Bremer is a nice little role player, nothing more. He fell down more against New Jersey than anything else. He is what he is; a guy who can bury long jumpers and hustle. I like him, but Jay Williams (although a total waste of a #2 pick) is better NOW, was better IN COLLEGE, and WILL BE a much better pro, period. I hope the Celtics keep JR for another season to see if he can develop some, but they need a POINT guard. They need to see about Andre Miller or draft Hinrich. If they can't trade up, they should take the BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE at their 16 and 20 picks. Also, I heard someone mention Kenny Anderson. If he'd play for the veteran's minimum here, that might be intriguing, too. Any thoughts?


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: Since when is J.R. suddenly Bob Cousy?*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> JR Bremer is a nice little role player, nothing more. He fell down more against New Jersey than anything else. He is what he is; a guy who can bury long jumpers and hustle. I like him, but Jay Williams (although a total waste of a #2 pick) is better NOW, was better IN COLLEGE, and WILL BE a much better pro, period. I hope the Celtics keep JR for another season to see if he can develop some, but they need a POINT guard. They need to see about Andre Miller or draft Hinrich. If they can't trade up, they should take the BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE at their 16 and 20 picks. Also, I heard someone mention Kenny Anderson. If he'd play for the veteran's minimum here, that might be intriguing, too. Any thoughts?


I think it is clear from my other posts in this thread and elsewhere on this forum that I disagree with just about everything you say above.

Jay Williams? Don't make me laugh. The #1 flop of last year's draft. He doesn't shoot well, he doesn't defend and he can't make his free throws. For all of Bremer's failings (and he certainly has them), those are not among them.

Williams and Andre Miller are alike in that regardless of what numbers they put up, neither one knows how to win. Fortunately for the Celtics, the logical place for Miller to go is Utah, which will have cap room and may just be dumb enough to pay him more than the MLE. With Stockton retiring and Malone likely to leave, Utah will be a 25-30 win team, so Miller will be right at home.

And before you go drafting a point guard, ask yourself this question: Can the guy you intend to draft defend against a good NBA point guard (Kidd, Payton, Cassell, Francis, Davis, etc.) one-on-one without embarrassing himself? From what I've seen, the answer with guys like Hindrich and Ridnour is no.

And for the umpteenth time, it is dumb IMHO to draft a pg when guys like Steve Blake and Jermaine Boyette will go undrafted and will be available for the rookie minimum.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Big J is right, (hehe Big J- I like it) I agree with all of it. And I know that after we draft a PG he won't be able to help us at all now, I would love to develop a PG but we need some other help too now. There ISN'T ONE PG in the world that could help us right away.


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## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

i want steve blake, very hard nosed and aggressive player when i saw him play, as soon as the bell rings, we shud sign him...as long as nothing crazy happenz and he actuaLLy getz drafted (no offense to him)........


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

Yes I like Blake too. I also like Jermaine Boyette from Weber State-- a lefty slasher who would be much better known if had he played in the ACC or the Big East instead of in the WAC.

Unfortunately Troy Bell and Marcus Hatten will probably be taken in the second round, although one never knows.


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> Just don't listen to Peter May, he doesn't know what he is saying.
> 
> Guys we DO NEED a PG, I would love to draft one but I think they'll all be gone by the time we pick, we would need then to turn our attention to the FA's, one FA who sould be on top of our list is----Kenny Anderson, yes I don't like him either but he DOES know our system, he WON'T be asking for much, he KNOWS his role on this team.


I can't see Kenny resigning with Boston. He might have a year or 2 left in him and he is too short to be a defending pg, so I think he'll end up as a back up to a back up on a team that didn't ship him off.


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## PatBateman (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Re: Since when is J.R. suddenly Bob Cousy?*



> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> And for the umpteenth time, it is dumb IMHO to draft a pg when guys like Steve Blake and Jermaine Boyette will go undrafted and will be available for the rookie minimum.


This is a good point. I think that there will be plenty of PG's available after the draft and in the second round(We could give up a couple future seconds and get Bell, Chris Thomas, or anyone else available in the second round). With their picks, the Celt's should try and get some size and skill. However, I think a lot of people overlook the biggest problem with the Celts. THEY HAVE NO 3RD SCORING OPTION! We need to draft someone who can hit open shots(not necessarily treys) and do it now. I would look at pure skill players, like Boris Diaw, maybe Khryhapa, and that's it as far as I can tell. Makes you wish we hadn't passed on Gilbert Arenas for Forte, eh? I am seriously thinking that the Celt's should take the best big man available at 16 and draft Dahntay Jones at 20. He is BY FAR, the most underrated player in the draft and plays with a lot of heart, intensity, a willingness to grab boards, fall to the floor, play defense, etc. Hell, why not grab him when you can or trade down to pick up a bunch of 2nd rounders where you hope to get him and Marcus Hatten and or Troy Bell.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*Jermaine Boyette?*

There is a reason some guys play in the WAC and the Big Sky Conference. In fact, name me one All-Star or Solid Contributor from one of those schools (Theo Ratliff is too hurt and doesn't count). I agree with Big John that if we can't nab Hinrich we should take the BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE and not try to go PG when you can get Bremers in the UFA ranks. Dontay Jones is underrated, true, but maybe not a first-rounder. We can get some nice players like David West, Collison or a nice Europlayer. Who knows, Dwayne Wade might fall. Reece Gaines is pretty nice, too. As for Andre Miller, aren't you being a little harsh? The guy can be coached; he's been in the league what, four years? And as for our third scorer, yes we need one, but I think we should have used EW more in the post; too much PP and AW isos. One MWC player that could be an OK pickup at 20 would be the Hansen kid from BYU. Danny loves him; I wonder why?


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: Jermaine Boyette?*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> There is a reason some guys play in the WAC and the Big Sky Conference. In fact, name me one All-Star or Solid Contributor from one of those schools (Theo Ratliff is too hurt and doesn't count). I agree with Big John that if we can't nab Hinrich we should take the BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE and not try to go PG when you can get Bremers in the UFA ranks. Dontay Jones is underrated, true, but maybe not a first-rounder. We can get some nice players like David West, Collison or a nice Europlayer. Who knows, Dwayne Wade might fall. Reece Gaines is pretty nice, too. As for Andre Miller, aren't you being a little harsh? The guy can be coached; he's been in the league what, four years? And as for our third scorer, yes we need one, but I think we should have used EW more in the post; too much PP and AW isos. One MWC player that could be an OK pickup at 20 would be the Hansen kid from BYU. Danny loves him; I wonder why?


Yes, my comment about the WAC was in error. Weber State is in the Big Sky conference. They play a decent schedule. though, against much bigger schools like Utah, Utah State and Brigham Young.

And Boyette can play. You can make the same argument about any small conference, and about all of these foreign phenoms who play in the Euro "B" leagues against inferior competition. Also that line of reasoning does not apply to guys like Blake, who led Maryland to a National championship, or Hollis Price (Oklahoma).

Dwayne Wade WILL fall because he is a tweener. Some doubt that he is as tall as 6-4 in bare feet and they are already asking whether or not he can play the point. He is not the guy the Celtics need. He is Delk redux.

Collison is not athletic enough to be a top 20 pick. Also he has no upside-- he is fully developed right now. Lastly, the Celtics already have Darius Songaila, who is the same kind of player.

I do not like Hinrich. He is not particularly athletic either and I question his ability to defend in the NBA. Both he and Ridnour will be abused by guys like Cassell, Billups, Arenas and Van Exel, not to mention the REALLY good pgs (Kidd, Francis, etc.).

David West would be a much better pick. He could develop into a player like Corliss Williamson. Schortsanitis or Sweetney might also be there at #16, depending on which Mock draft you believe.

I agree that with #20 they should take the best player available. One of the Frenchmen (Pietrus or Diaw) will likely be there. My guess is that Reece Gaines and Marcus Moore will be gone unless one of them plays poorly in Chicago-- but you never know.

Miller? Quite frankly he is not worth the MLE, particularly when each dollar the Celtics spend over the luxury tax cliff threshhold will cost them $3.80. I'd rather spend $2 M. (or less) on a guy like Darrell Armstrong. who is a better defender and distributor IMHO. Larry Bird is the best player I ever saw in the last 2-3 minutes of a close game-- and Miller is one of the worst.

I really like EWill too but I'm afraid he will be gone, given his $4.5 M expiring deal. Assuming they keep Walker, who will be difficult to trade for equivalent value, they only have 2 guys with trade value: Williams and KB. I'd also be willing to trade Delk, but who would want him?

As for Travis Hansen, he is a late 2nd round pick at best. He, Matt Carroll and Kyle Korver (and probably also English from Hawaii)are basically the same player. None of them will crack the top 30.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> I can't see Kenny resigning with Boston. He might have a year or 2 left in him and he is too short to be a defending pg, so I think he'll end up as a back up to a back up on a team that didn't ship him off.


The fact is he never did defend, yes he's way too old, but IF we keep the same system we have now (Twan playing PG, expecting to get 8 assists 12 rebounds, 20 points and shoot a great %, we will not see it happen.) we'll be in deep trouble. How many PG will know their roll like Kenny did? Or do it?


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*Re: Re: Jermaine Boyette?*



> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, my comment about the WAC was in error. Weber State is in the Big Sky conference. They play a decent schedule. though, against much bigger schools like Utah, Utah State and Brigham Young.
> ...


Agree with you on many points...I'm not dissing Boyette, he is moving up the board, but one or two of the players I like...West, Collison, Moore, Schortansitis, Sweetney, Barbosa, Wade, Diaw will be there. I personally think Blake sucks, but we won't have to worry about him because he probably won't be drafted. EWill is staying unless Danny is forced to trade him for non-basketball reasons; O'Brien loves him and he is a huge player for us. You're right about Andre Miller, but is the verdict fully in on him? How many years has he been in the league? And Delk is a good guy to keep. As you saw in the playoffs he is a weapon and a great guy to have on your bench. Many teams would love to have him.


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## PatBateman (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Jermaine Boyette?*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> 
> 
> Agree with you on many points...I'm not dissing Boyette, he is moving up the board, but one or two of the players I like...West, Collison, Moore, Schortansitis, Sweetney, Barbosa, Wade, Diaw will be there. I personally think Blake sucks, but we won't have to worry about him because he probably won't be drafted. EWill is staying unless Danny is forced to trade him for non-basketball reasons; O'Brien loves him and he is a huge player for us. You're right about Andre Miller, but is the verdict fully in on him? How many years has he been in the league? And Delk is a good guy to keep. As you saw in the playoffs he is a weapon and a great guy to have on your bench. Many teams would love to have him.


Agree with you on Delk and EWill should stay and are very valuable role players.

I am surprised you think Sweetney, Diaw, Wade could be available to the C's. How does this work out? Care to do a mock up until the 20th pick, then I might see it better. If you are right, I would take Sweetney in a second, or maybe Wade.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

*Travis Hansen vs Jermaine Boyette*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> 
> 
> Agree with you on many points...I'm not dissing Boyette, he is moving up the board, but one or two of the players I like...West, Collison, Moore, Schortansitis, Sweetney, Barbosa, Wade, Diaw will be there. I personally think Blake sucks, but we won't have to worry about him because he probably won't be drafted. EWill is staying unless Danny is forced to trade him for non-basketball reasons; O'Brien loves him and he is a huge player for us. You're right about Andre Miller, but is the verdict fully in on him? How many years has he been in the league? And Delk is a good guy to keep. As you saw in the playoffs he is a weapon and a great guy to have on your bench. Many teams would love to have him.


The point is that guys like Boyette and Blake won't be drafted. It costs nothing to invite a couple of guys like that to rookie camp. Who knows? You might find a hidden gem. 

Here's an interesting tidbit: Last year, when Weber State (with Jermaine Boyette) played BYU (with Travis Hansen) Boyette lit it up for 37 points and Weber State defeated BYU in Provo. Hansen scored 12 and was a non factor in the game. If Hansen is so athletic, as some people are saying, how come he couldn't contain Boyette, who is 4 inches shorter?


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*Mock up to 16*



> Originally posted by <b>PatBateman</b>!
> 
> 
> Agree with you on Delk and EWill should stay and are very valuable role players.
> ...


I'm not sure any of those three you mentioned would drop that far...but as we saw w/Pierce and Caron Butler, it's possible a guy could drop 7-8 slots below his value. OK, here's how we WILL end up with ONE of my original list. Just my mock.

1. Lebron James
2. Darko Milicic
3. Carmelo Anthony
4. Chris Bosh
5. TJ Ford
6. Chris Kaman
7. Michael Pietrus
8. Dwayne Wade
9. Jarvis Hayes
10. Kirk Hinrich
11. Luke Ridnour
12. Mike Sweetney
13. Boris Diaw
14. Leandrinho Barbosa
15. Reece Gaines

at this point we could have Collison, West, Moore or Schortansitis, a.k.a. "Baby Shaq" I think we could actually get two of those and it's possible Diaw would be there at 16. Sweetney won't be there...I don't think Wade will either, but he could drop out of lottery to Seattle or Memphis. Either way we could get two of those guys or try to move up and get an impact player by trading our two picks.


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## PatBateman (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Mock up to 16*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not sure any of those three you mentioned would drop that far...but as we saw w/Pierce and Caron Butler, it's possible a guy could drop 7-8 slots below his value. OK, here's how we WILL end up with ONE of my original list. Just my mock.
> ...


Good mock. I have seen it projected a lot of places that we could have West at 20, so I would hate to see them use 16 on him, unless they were absolutely sold. What about Marcus Banks? Of those options you list, I would take baby shaq at 16. The only problem with your draft is where is Lampe? NBAdraft has him going 5, do you think he will fall way down? If you missed him, then I like that because it adds another player we could get, maybe Gaines or Barbosa since you have them 14/15. Also, if Pavel P. goes to in the top 15, that would bump another player down.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

Yeah, I had Lampe in there at 7 or 8 and erased him and forgot to put him back. Oh yes, he'll fall from 5-10 range, so move somebody down. Also, it is possible someone will go for Siberian Bear, which gives us two of those players.


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