# Dajuan Wagner - Real/Fake?



## Steez

Dajuan Wagner was great in his debut, scoring 17 points... but scores only 5 today!! wussup with that? Yeah he has potential blah blah... he did score 100 or somethin glike that in a high school game, but I really think that hes only offence, no defence... hes gonna be a bust just like alot of other players who had offence and no defence (I.E. Baby Jordan aka Harold Minor)


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## remy23

Wagner isn't a "potential" player. He is good already. Since he has played only 2 games this year, it is far too early to write him off. Other players have found their rhythm after playing 10+ games. Give Dajuan time.

If you caught ESPN's _The Life_, when he came to camp, his trainer said "He couldn't play defense when he first came but now, he can really lock a person up." Each summer, Dajuan works with his trainer on lifting weights and tries to improve his defence. The one thing about Dajuan is his father Milt told him "Always improve each year." After this season, it's safe to say Dajuan will work out all summer again.

It's too early to call Dajuan a bust. If one bad game dictates this, is Jay Williams a bust because he only had 4 points tonight? Of course not.

Dajuan was 2-12. He had a bad shooting night. I watched the game. The sad thing is, most of his shots were wide open. So it wasn't about poor shot selection, boneheaded plays or anything.

He is still finding his way. Early foul trouble (4 fouls by 3rd quarter) reduced his time and he didn't come back until late in the 4th. 

A lot of people are hard on Dajuan but it's all good. He'll be fine. Even though his shot was off today, I didn't see Dajuan sink his head once. After the game, he congratulated a few Bucks players and showed sportsmanship. 

My only concern is that Wagner seems to be the odd man out at times. He passes the ball more than he receives it.


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## Devestata

This is Wagner's first year, and remember he came out early. High Schoolers really won't be consistent in there first year...we can't even start making any last opinions on him until another couple years. Give Wags some time to develop, and I'm sure Cleveland fans will be damn happy they picked him.


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## LakerMania

DaJuan Wagner was my pick for ROY because of his talent level and his opportunity to shine on a weak team. Too bad he had that infection or you probably would be talking about him alongside Gooden, Giricek, and Ming. I would bet money that this guy has a monster game in the near future erasing the weak game he just had.


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## truebluefan

Let him play a year or two. Cant answer this with just two games.


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## trick

so you expect a 'kid', straight from high school, to be very effective and play move his game from High School to the NBA?


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## Chops

C'mon, he hasn't done anything yet. He scored 17 points on 40% shooting. Now he is an all-star? Bah.

Jay Williams got 26 points, 14 rebounds, and 13 assists against Jason Kidd. I guess he is a sure fire star.


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## remy23

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> C'mon, he hasn't done anything yet. He scored 17 points on 40% shooting. Now he is an all-star? Bah.
> 
> Jay Williams got 26 points, 14 rebounds, and 13 assists against Jason Kidd. I guess he is a sure fire star.


People consider Wagner a star from his high school and college prodigy (NIT champion and NIT MVP). His promise is great. 

Dajuan was not happy shooting 40% and after the game, told reporters, that he could have done better. 

The reason why Jay is seen as a potentially good player is when he started turning around. Early on, he was averaging around 8 ppg and 4 apg. Now he's upped it to 10.5 ppg and 5.3 apg.

I question what you are trying to say. Perhaps both players have received a great deal of hype. The season is early and maybe it is unwarranted thus far. But look at the situation from this perspective. Yao Ming took a while to get into his own. Before then, people were saying "He is a bust, he won't be a star" and so forth. Now Yao has hit his stride. People who believe in Yao, Jay or Dajuan have faith in their men. But I see no reason why any of these players will not become good players in these league for years to come.

Some rookies do not show promise until 40 games into the season. The fact you see glimpses of the future already in Dajuan is a positive thing. Now he needs consistency. But you see he has it in him.


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## JerryWest

Don't know where wiliams thing came from, but regardless Wagner is better then him


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## OZZY

Wagner a fake? :laugh: Hummm, 29 points tonight!


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## Joe_Canada

I agree with Ozzy. This thread looks kinda stupid now. The kid is a lock for rookie of the year, Iverson style. Hes gonna be one of the great scorers in the league. Hes just got that confidence in his ability, can take anyone off the first step and has a nice outside stroke. Great pick for cleveland.


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## Chops

11-26 from the field. No thank you, I'll pass...


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## spartanfan2003

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Wagner a fake? :laugh: Hummm, 29 points tonight!


Haha, hummmmmmm, Tony Delk, 51 points, lets proclaim him a superstar. Giricek, 29 in his debut, Gooden 23, while only missing 3 shots (all cheap misses too), the list goes on and on. Wags has no D. I get annoyed by all of these real/fake threads because they are all about rookies. I don't see the point in deciding where a rookie is "real" or "fake", especially after 3 games. I could tolerate something like "Jamal Crawford, real or fake?" , but Dajuan Wagner is a little rediculous, the kid has played 3 games for gosh sakes! Even if he wins ROY, he could turn out like Mike Miller. Oh yeah, I forgot, Gooden got 23 twice and has been in double digits multiple times, I think he got 17 or 19 on the Lakers tonight.


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>KennethTo</b>!
> Don't know where wiliams thing came from, but regardless Wagner is better then him


How so? Williams has put up a triple-double against the leagues best. Wagner shot 11-26 from the field and now he is better than Williams?


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>remy23</b>!
> 
> 
> People consider Wagner a star from his high school and college prodigy (NIT champion and NIT MVP). His promise is great.
> 
> Dajuan was not happy shooting 40% and after the game, told reporters, that he could have done better.
> 
> The reason why Jay is seen as a potentially good player is when he started turning around. Early on, he was averaging around 8 ppg and 4 apg. Now he's upped it to 10.5 ppg and 5.3 apg.
> 
> I question what you are trying to say. Perhaps both players have received a great deal of hype. The season is early and maybe it is unwarranted thus far. But look at the situation from this perspective. Yao Ming took a while to get into his own. Before then, people were saying "He is a bust, he won't be a star" and so forth. Now Yao has hit his stride. People who believe in Yao, Jay or Dajuan have faith in their men. But I see no reason why any of these players will not become good players in these league for years to come.
> 
> Some rookies do not show promise until 40 games into the season. The fact you see glimpses of the future already in Dajuan is a positive thing. Now he needs consistency. But you see he has it in him.


are you kidding? Jay was the best player in college for 2 years. That is why he is considered a potential star. Not because he went from 8 to 10 points per game.


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## Joe_Canada

Yes, because 11-26 is so awful and Cleveland has so many other big scorers that should get the ball(sarcasm). The kid can fill it up like Iverson, I still think hes a great pick and the best rookie this year. The only other guy i see close is Gooden. He has nowhere to go but up and can already score in bunches on the pro level.


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>Joe_Canada</b>!
> Yes, because 11-26 is so awful and Cleveland has so many other big scorers that should get the ball(sarcasm). The kid can fill it up like Iverson, I still think hes a great pick and the best rookie this year. The only other guy i see close is Gooden. He has nowhere to go but up and can already score in bunches on the pro level.


They have Ilgauskus, Ricky Davis, etc.

I don't care how many scorers you have on your team. 11-26 is bad shooting.


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## spartanfan2003

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> are you kidding? Jay was the best player in college for 2 years. That is why he is considered a potential star. Not because he went from 8 to 10 points per game.


Although I agree on what you have said so far KC, I don't think this last statement you made was true. Even before I knew Gooden would be a Grizz, I thought he should have been the player of the year over Jay Williams. Now I can accept the fact that he was technically the "best" player last year, but two years in a row?  Are you saying that he was better than Shane Battier? are you saying that he was better than Richardson and Loren Woods, not to mention Haywood and Forte along with Wright and Jefferson down in Az.


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>Spartanfan2003</b>!
> 
> 
> Although I agree on what you have said so far KC, I don't think this last statement you made was true. Even before I knew Gooden would be a Grizz, I thought he should have been the player of the year over Jay Williams. Now I can accept the fact that he was technically the "best" player last year, but two years in a row?  Are you saying that he was better than Shane Battier? are you saying that he was better than Richardson and Loren Woods, not to mention Haywood and Forte along with Wright and Jefferson down in Az.


Yes, check the numbers. Jay has been the best and most highly touted college player over the last 2 years. He is the only college player that could have gone top 2 the last 2 years. He is seen as a potential star based on what he did in college, not the fact that he raised his scoring average by 2ppg.

Wright, Woods, Forte, Haywood, Jefferson? C'mon, none of these guys were even close.


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## spartanfan2003

Bradley, haston, hunter, murphy, tinsley, trepagnier, watson, and morris were all also better.


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## remy23

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> I don't care how many scorers you have on your team. 11-26 is bad shooting.


No offense but from the way you are talking, I am certain you did not watch the game live. There is truth to the game beyond the stats. Boozer and Wagner were responsible for the Cavs coming back from the grave, to nearly snatch the game. A few of the shots he missed were freebies, ones even Wagner was disappointed with. Numerically, mathematically, you can take your stabs. But if you watched the game, you can't criticize Dajuan for anything. He was their savior (along with Boozer) tonight.


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## shazha

*cant compare J and wags*

guys u cant compare wags and Jay they have totally differen't games its like saying whos better ben wallace or abdur rahim... rahims a great offensive threat and wallace is a defensive presence... 

wags will be a star... it doesn't really matter that he shot 40% its about hitting the big shots... and this guy has the guts to take those shots... and make em... let wags play with miles they will get better once they have a chance... wags has always been my 1 one pick and i'd still pick him over the rest of the draft... Jays game is totally differen't hes more of a floor general who can score when needed like a bibby type player with better rebounding and defense... 

cavs playoffs next year 8th seed... im callin it now... laugh all u want.... i really think wagner is a winner .... real deal for sure


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>Spartanfan2003</b>!
> Bradley, haston, hunter, murphy, tinsley, trepagnier, watson, and morris were all also better.


You have got to be kidding. Check the numbers.


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>remy23</b>!
> 
> 
> No offense but from the way you are talking, I am certain you did not watch the game live. There is truth to the game beyond the stats. Boozer and Wagner were responsible for the Cavs coming back from the grave, to nearly snatch the game. A few of the shots he missed were freebies, ones even Wagner was disappointed with. Numerically, mathematically, you can take your stabs. But if you watched the game, you can't criticize Dajuan for anything. He was their savior (along with Boozer) tonight.


The savior? And they lost. Anyways, I didn't watch the game, but 11-26 isn't good shooting. That is my opinion.


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## spartanfan2003

Wagner must feel proud of himself, he made a game close with a mediocre team. SO WHAT!??!?!? Gooden almost single handedly took the Lakers to OT and barely lost.


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## remy23

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> The savior? And they lost. Anyways, I didn't watch the game, but 11-26 isn't good shooting. That is my opinion.


Yes savior. The Cavs were down 91-73 with 9:18 left in the 4th quarter. I am not sure on the exact stat but Wagner had something like 11 of his 29 in the 4th, saving the best for last in that impressive comeback. Like I said earlier, you have to look at more than stats before you say a person did not have a good game. But if you are so mathematical, that is about 42.3% from the field, which is not good, but not bad either, like you claim. Some players in the league don't even shot that percentage for the year.


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>remy23</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes savior. The Cavs were down 91-73 with 9:18 left in the 4th quarter. I am not sure on the exact stat but Wagner had something like 11 of his 29 in the 4th, saving the best for last in that impressive comeback. Like I said earlier, you have to look at more than stats before you say a person did not have a good game. But if you are so mathematical, that is about 42.3% from the field, which is not good, but not bad either, like you claim. Some players in the league don't even shot that percentage for the year.


I didn't say he played a bad game. I said he shot poorly. There is a difference. 42% isn't very good.


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## remy23

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> I didn't say he played a bad game. I said he shot poorly. There is a difference. 42% isn't very good.


42% is not bad. You said it was bad above and I disagree. That is fairly standard, regular shooting. If you think 42% is bad, I guess you're one of those guys who get only impressed with 50% and up. So in conclusion, I still disagree with your claim.


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## remy23

> Originally posted by <b>Spartanfan2003</b>!
> Wagner must feel proud of himself, he made a game close with a mediocre team. SO WHAT!??!?!? Gooden almost single handedly took the Lakers to OT and barely lost.


Wagner plays a good game and you try to discredit it by comparing him to Gooden? The two games aren't even related. The way I see it, both Dajuan and Drew had good games. So if Gooden has a good game, should I say later (if Dajuan has a good game again), "So what, Dajuan did this versus Iverson, a hot team in the East." Of course not. Give both men their props.


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>remy23</b>!
> 
> 
> 42% is not bad. You said it was bad above and I disagree. That is fairly standard, regular shooting. If you think 42% is bad, I guess you're one of those guys who get only impressed with 50% and up. So in conclusion, I still disagree with your claim.


I think 44-47% is good. Anything lower than that is bad. However, it is possible to shoot poorly and still play a good game. I agree with that.


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## Chops

Tracy McGrady
Kobe Bryant
Ray Allen
Vince Carter

All of these guys shoot over 45% for their career. I consider that good shooting. Now, not everyone can be like these guys. You can shoot 42% like AI and still be a great player, but it is rare. MJ, the best ever, has shot 50% from the field for his career. 42% is bad.


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## Wiggum

Well, it's all relative. If you get a center shooting 45%, that's not very good.

I'd consider 46% and above to be "good" for a shooting guard; I kind of see 45% as the breaking point. Then, in my mind, 40-45% is mediocre for a guard, and below 40% is poor. That's just my opinion.


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## tenkev

To me its all about adjusted field goal percentage.

ADJ. FG% = (Pts minus Field Goals made)/FGA


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## Chops

Good point, Wiggum. For example, a PF like Marcus Fizer who shoots 42% is absolutely disgusting. I am having a hard time naming an NBA all-star other than AI who shoots 42% or under.


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## Chops

Allen Iverson
Jason Kidd
Baron Davis
Stephon Marbury

They all shoot under 42%. Kidd is known as a bad shooter and the rest are known for being very streaky. I think they are all bad shooters at times and great at other times.


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## johnston797

> Originally posted by <b>tenkev</b>!
> To me its all about adjusted field goal percentage.
> 
> ADJ. FG% = (Pts minus Field Goals made)/FGA


Wagner did hit 3 3s. And got to the line as well. The youngster looks good!


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## Amareca

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> Allen Iverson
> Jason Kidd
> Baron Davis
> Stephon Marbury
> 
> They all shoot under 42%. Kidd is known as a bad shooter and the rest are known for being very streaky. I think they are all bad shooters at times and great at other times.



That is simply not true

Kidd is shooting 47% or something like that so far this season.

Marbury shot 44.2% last season, 44.1% the season before, 43.2% the season before, 43.9% the season before

He is a 42.8% career shooter. He would also shoot better this season if he wasn't playing on 2 bad ankles.

Baron Davis shoots 42.1% over his career.


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## LakerMania

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> I think 44-47% is good. Anything lower than that is bad. However, it is possible to shoot poorly and still play a good game. I agree with that.


Then I guess since Jay Williams shooting 37% this season, he flat out sucks right?


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> That is simply not true
> 
> Kidd is shooting 47% or something like that so far this season.
> 
> Marbury shot 44.2% last season, 44.1% the season before, 43.2% the season before, 43.9% the season before
> 
> He is a 42.8% career shooter. He would also shoot better this season if he wasn't playing on 2 bad ankles.
> 
> Baron Davis shoots 42.1% over his career.


Yes, Kidd shoots under 42% for his career. Matbury is in the 42% range, as is Davis. I'm not sure what your point is. How is that simply not true?


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>LakerMania</b>!
> 
> 
> Then I guess since Jay Williams shooting 37% this season, he flat out sucks right?


Like I said, it is possible to play well while shooting poorly. Williams also leads the rookies in assists.

Jay Williams shot 46.5% from the field his last year of college. That leads me to believe that he is in a slump and he is capable of shooting much better.

DeJuan Wagner shot 39.5% in college. I'm not saying he can't improve, but I guess the 42% he shot last night was actually excellent for him.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt

Don't say Wagner is as good as Williams yet. He has only played in a few games so it makes him look better. For example, if the only game Williams had played in was the Nets game than you would think he should be MVP because his triple double made his stats look great, it is the same thing with Wagner-he has only played in a couple of games so all he needs is one big game to make his stats look awesome. Wait untill he has played in more games before you say he is as good as Williams.


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## Allen Iverson

Wagner is for real.


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## remy23

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Like I said, it is possible to play well while shooting poorly. Williams also leads the rookies in assists.
> 
> Jay Williams shot 46.5% from the field his last year of college. That leads me to believe that he is in a slump and he is capable of shooting much better.
> 
> DeJuan Wagner shot 39.5% in college. I'm not saying he can't improve, but I guess the 42% he shot last night was actually excellent for him.


Jay shot 45.3% in college.
http://www.nba.com/draft2002/profiles/jay_williams.html

Dajuan shot 41% in college.
http://www.nba.com/draft2002/profiles/dajuan_wagner.html

Dajuan only played one year of college basketball. If you compare Dajuan's college FG% to what Jay Williams shot as a freshman, they are nearly identical. 

41% Wagner to 41.9% for Jay Williams freshman year.

If 0.9% makes on player a much better shooter than the other, so be it.


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>remy23</b>!
> 
> 
> Jay shot 45.3% in college.
> http://www.nba.com/draft2002/profiles/jay_williams.html
> 
> Dajuan shot 41% in college.
> http://www.nba.com/draft2002/profiles/dajuan_wagner.html
> 
> Dajuan only played one year of college basketball. If you compare Dajuan's college FG% to what Jay Williams shot as a freshman, they are nearly identical.
> 
> 41% Wagner to 41.9% for Jay Williams freshman year.
> 
> If 0.9% makes on player a much better shooter than the other, so be it.


Well, I got stats from Nbadraft.net. I don't think those count the tournament. Anyways, Jay shot 46.5% his last year of college. I'm not gonna sit here and guess what Wagner may have done if he stayed until he was a junior. Just because they shot nearly the same as freshman doesn't mean Wagner's FG% will go up. I prefer to look at what they have already accomplished than look at what they might do IF....


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## remy23

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> I'm not gonna sit here and guess what Wagner may have done if he stayed until he was a junior. Just because they shot nearly the same as freshman doesn't mean Wagner's FG% will go up.


Why not? Unless you attempt to make an argument saying "Wagner has peaked," of course his FG% would go up after he gets more experienced and skilled as a player.


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## Amareca

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, Kidd shoots under 42% for his career. Matbury is in the 42% range, as is Davis. I'm not sure what your point is. How is that simply not true?


Because it is not true.

They are not shooting below 42%

Excluding Kidd and Iverson they all shoot over 42% career and like 44% last year.


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> 
> 
> Because it is not true.
> 
> They are not shooting below 42%
> 
> Excluding Kidd and Iverson they all shoot over 42% career and like 44% last year.


Yea, that was my mistake, I was just talking about Kidd, but Davis and Marbury are still in the 42% range. They don't even shoot 43%. Still bad shooting, IMO.


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>remy23</b>!
> 
> 
> Why not? Unless you attempt to make an argument saying "Wagner has peaked," of course his FG% would go up after he gets more experienced and skilled as a player.


Not really. Players can improve and shoot the same or worse from the field. It doesn't mean they have peaked. I am not going to speculate on what he will do. Take an example in Kobe Bryant. He has improved this year, but he is shooting a lower %. There is nothing but an assumption that Wagner's FG % will improve durastically to the point where he is shooting 45-47%.


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## JerryWest

Williams can't seem to be able to shoot... Free Throws even 

If you want to look at numbers's his free throw shooting is shaq like, and he's a guard...


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## spartanfan2003

Hey, KC, who are the cousins who think alike in your sig?


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>Spartanfan2003</b>!
> Hey, KC, who are the cousins who think alike in your sig?


T-Mac and Vince.


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## OZZY

You people must be really hard up on something to post if you make this thread this damn long! Give it a rest, some like him, some don't. 

P.S. Some hated Allen Iverson when he came into the league also....


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## Chops

Damn, Wagner with 28 more tonight. I really am jealous now. Jerry Krause is a dunce.


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## spartanfan2003

hey calm down, look at his shooting, his mpg, the players around him, his to's how many shots he took, his assists, etc.


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## spartanfan2003

But I agree, Krause is a dunce.


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## shazha

all the wagner haters are just jealous that their fav team didn't pick him...... hes a star for sure... thats wat ive been sayin since his highschool days... he nearly opted for the draft after his highschool season but decided to play in his hometown of memhis for one season.... now didn't the guy set scoring records for memphis in his freshman season??!!.... jays a great player and a great leader, but he will never be the flat out scorer that wags wil be.. even the great AI acknowledges it... everyone sees it except for all the jay will fans out there...

get over it... wags is the real deal 
cavs playoffs (8th seed next year)


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> all the wagner haters are just jealous that their fav team didn't pick him...... hes a star for sure... thats wat ive been sayin since his highschool days... he nearly opted for the draft after his highschool season but decided to play in his hometown of memhis for one season.... now didn't the guy set scoring records for memphis in his freshman season??!!.... jays a great player and a great leader, but he will never be the flat out scorer that wags wil be.. even the great AI acknowledges it... everyone sees it except for all the jay will fans out there...
> 
> get over it... wags is the real deal
> cavs playoffs (8th seed next year)


Agreed. And Wags won't create for his teammates and do the other things like rebound and get assists. It depends what you want for your team. I think J-Will could score over 20 a game if he were given big minutes and shots like Wags. The Bulls have more veteran leaders though, like Rose and Marshall taking the shots.


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## spartanfan2003

> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> all the wagner haters are just jealous that their fav team didn't pick him


I would rather have Gooden any day!


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## The OUTLAW

*The Messiah*



> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> The savior? And they lost. Anyways, I didn't watch the game, but 11-26 isn't good shooting. That is my opinion.


While 11-26 is not good shooting it is not so bad that people are tripping on it. Thats 42.3%. I'd like it to be higher and I'm sure it will be when they get a player to get them the ball in spots where they can score. The Cavs take too long to get into the offense and often have to take shots at the end of the shot clock. I still think he's gonna be the man. 29 and 28 pts in consecutive games


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## The OUTLAW

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, I got stats from Nbadraft.net. I don't think those count the tournament. Anyways, Jay shot 46.5% his last year of college. I'm not gonna sit here and guess what Wagner may have done if he stayed until he was a junior. Just because they shot nearly the same as freshman doesn't mean Wagner's FG% will go up. I prefer to look at what they have already accomplished than look at what they might do IF....


Isn't that exactly what your doing if you think that he is going to be a 42 or lower percentage shooter


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## <<<D>>>

Wagz is for reals. Just like all the other rookies in the L, he's just making his adjustments to his game and getting started. You gotta love his impressive start so far. He's going to be another explosive guard for years to come.


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> 
> 
> Isn't that exactly what your doing if you think that he is going to be a 42 or lower percentage shooter


I never said that I thought he would.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO

*Wagner 25 and 10 so far through 3 quarters*

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/scoreboard


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## Chops

And the Cavs lose by 32 to the Knicks. I'm not impressed.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO

true true, its still impressive nonetheless, he's only a rookie, but then again, these are the pathetic knicks and they got blown out


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## rynobot

Well the cavs were with out Miles,Davis,Hill, and Mihm so they were pretty outmanned. I'm suprised Wagner was able to get ten assists!


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## Damian Necronamous

Wagner now averaging 20.8ppg.

He and Gooden are the top candidates right now.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO

> Originally posted by <b>rynobot</b>!
> Well the cavs were with out Miles,Davis,Hill, and Mihm so they were pretty outmanned. I'm suprised Wagner was able to get ten assists!


true true


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## Chops

He is taking 17.8 shots per game, shooting 37.1%, and turning the ball over 3 times per game.


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## Da Grinch

*seeing as i saw the knicks-cavs game*

i have to say i was impressed by wagner yet again 

next to ming he is the most talented player in that draft

the 25 really weren't that impressive considering he really should have had more he was taking makeable shots 

i was most impressed by by his defense he held ward and eisley for a combined 3-11 for 8 points because after spre or houston broke down the defense he was the omly one that seemed to back to his man quickly enough to stop an easy shot (although its probably not as impressive as it seemed the rest of the cavs were just horrible at recovering which led to ward and eisley getting 14 assists)

Wagner is the real deal


----------



## tinygiant

Yes the shooting percentage so far is bad, but for a guy who should be a soph in college right now 17 shots is fine if he is averaging over 20 points a game. And 3 turnovers isn't that bad compared to a lot of players that young who handle the ball that much. Of course we can't expect him to be great right now. Very few rookies are (I laugh when I hear people say that a player is great who only averages 10 points and is a project, they MIGHT be good but they aren't yet). But I think it is pretty clear that the guy has enough talent to become a top level player in this league if he works hard at his deficiencies. And from everything I've heard and read about him saying, he seems willing to do that.


----------



## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> He is taking 17.8 shots per game, shooting 37.1%, and turning the ball over 3 times per game.


That's not alot of shots. The turnovers every rookie goes through. What's Williams' 3.8 and you are talking about Wags. Give him his props KC


----------



## OZZY

Ok, Dajuan is getting ripped on way to much in here so I will join in the defense of his game.

Ok, his first game he has 17, next game 5, then 28, 29, 25. Ok I don't think that is to bad of a start for any rookie in the NBA. If I remeber right when he came out dumb people said he could not score in the NBA. Well to me it sure looks like he can score. And to those that say he takes to many shots, well Allen takes to many shots, Kobe sometimes takes to many shots, Pierce sometimes takes to many as well. The key is, who cares! All great players might take a lot of shots, but if they are within the offense and they still pass to there teammates then it is fine with me. Wagner is a scorer, he is always on the attack, so obviously he will shoot a lot. But in my book him shooting means that he is playing well, he only shot 12 times I believe in his second game when he scored 5 points. But when he is on he shoots about 20 plus times. Hell last night he got 10 assits! Damn get the hell off his back!

And to those Jay Williams fans out there, because I bet most of the people that "hate" Juanny are Jay Williams fans... So lets look at the stats.

Jay Williams
11 points 4 rebounds 5 assits per game.

Dajuan Wagner
20 points 2 rebounds and 5 assits per game.

Yeah Wagner did not play as many game but I promise Jay Williams did not score 20 a game in his first 5 games! 

*Give it a rest, Dajuan is a good player!*


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> That's not alot of shots. The turnovers every rookie goes through. What's Williams' 3.8 and you are talking about Wags. Give him his props KC


LOL, why is it when I criticze Wagner, people want to jump on Jay Williams? He has nothing to do with this thread, nothing to do with this topic. If Wagner was running the triangle, he would probably be shooting 30%.


----------



## Absynth

dujan wagner is in my opinion a great player. id rather have him over williams, although thats not to say hes the better player. All it means is that he has the hardest thing to ever learn, a great offense. he can score and dribble sooo well. defense is learned and he does that well already. work ethic is sooo important and underrated, and he has it, because he used to be awful at d. passing u can learn, yes....if u want to u can learn. and the real and only way to really learn is by playing nba games, and wagners adjusting fast. sky is the limits hes personally my favorite rook...although i tend to favor sg/pg over sf/pf/c.


----------



## remy23

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> LOL, why is it when I criticze Wagner, people want to jump on Jay Williams? He has nothing to do with this thread, nothing to do with this topic. If Wagner was running the triangle, he would probably be shooting 30%.


I disagree. On a team with better players and a proven offensive scheme, his shooting should increase. The Cavs tell him "Go one-on-one." If Dajuan could play using a timed tested scheme, he would do better.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>remy23</b>!
> 
> 
> I disagree. On a team with better players and a proven offensive scheme, his shooting should increase. The Cavs tell him "Go one-on-one." If Dajuan could play using a timed tested scheme, he would do better.


No, he is better when he has freedom to create his own shot. In the triangle, he would have to show more movement and wouldn't have a chance to "run the team" like he does in Cleveland. Trust me, the triangle hurts small one-on-one type guards, until they can learn to use it effectively.


----------



## rynobot

KC, you were the first to mention Jay Williams in this thread!


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>rynobot</b>!
> KC, you were the first to mention Jay Williams in this thread!


Yeah, so? I'm asking what he has to do with Wagner 2 days after we stopped discussing J-Will. Do you have the answer to that?


----------



## rynobot

They have nothing to with other. You can compare the two, but that won't acomplish anything because they are two different types of guards.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>rynobot</b>!
> They have nothing to with other. You can compare the two, but that won't acomplish anything because they are two different types of guards.


Yeah, I agree.


----------



## OZZY

> Yeah, so? I'm asking what he has to do with Wagner 2 days after we stopped discussing J-Will. Do you have the answer to that?


 I brought up Jay Williams because most of the people that hate Wagner only hate him because he was compared with Jay Williams so much. And since Dajuan is doing better than Jay, fans of Williams are jealous of his success and wish Jay was playing that well. Simple as that.


----------



## 33

He is the real deal!! He's like A.I. all over again


----------



## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> He is the real deal!! He's like A.I. all over again


not as quick but a little bigger


----------



## The OUTLAW

*The Messiah*

I find it amusing that this has gone on so long and, yes I wonder why so many people dislike Wagner. I can't understand it but I do know it will be interesting to watch Wagner and Williams match up tonight as the Cavs and Bulls play. Davis will be back so I think that'll mean that Wagner and Williams will be matched up against each other.

Oh yeah, "not as fast as Iverson"? Dang, who is?


----------



## BEEZ

*Re: The Messiah*



> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> I find it amusing that this has gone on so long and, yes I wonder why so many people dislike Wagner. I can't understand it but I do know it will be interesting to watch Wagner and Williams match up tonight as the Cavs and Bulls play. Davis will be back so I think that'll mean that Wagner and Williams will be matched up against each other.
> 
> Oh yeah, "not as fast as Iverson"? Dang, who is?


nah it wasnt a diss. I love Wagner. Played against him a few times


----------



## OZZY

Well we all saw who was the better ball player between Jay and Dajuan last night now didn't we!:yes:


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Well we all saw who was the better ball player between Jay and Dajuan last night now didn't we!:yes:


Not really. Wagner played more minutes and took 15 more shots. Meanwhile, Jay had 9 assists.


----------



## rynobot

Why compare assists when Wagner is startin at the two guard?


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>rynobot</b>!
> Why compare assists when Wagner is startin at the two guard?


Exactly, get passed the bias KC


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>rynobot</b>!
> Why compare assists when Wagner is startin at the two guard?


What else do you look at? Why compare them AT ALL if they play different positions? Why? Explain how Wagner just proved he is the better player? Explain that correctly, and I will concede.


----------



## The Krakken

Well done KC. Well done.


----------



## OZZY

Well coming out Jay and Dajuan were considered the best two scoring guards coming out of college. Am I right on that, because I think I'am. So with that, Dajuan is doing a much better job at scoring beating NBA talent on offense. Sure Jay had 9 assits but Dajuan had 10 a few games back, and the Caves did win the game against Chicago so Dajuan was not unselfish in any way. 

Jay Williams was predicted as a PG/SG when he came out, and not matter if Dajuan plays more minutes, you can't deni that he played better. What is scoring 20 a game is easy as a rookie that is what like 19 years old... And you can't say Dajuan is on a less talented team and can shoot because Davis shoots just as much a Dajuan at times. 

Jay Williams was considered the hands down better player last year. And I faught that idea all the way. And yeah it is only a few games, but Dajuan had WAY more of a impact on those games that Jay. I can't believe how many people hate Dajuan Wagner. What does everyone what him to be a flop? Sorry fellas that will not happen!

Again Dajuan has had a bigger impact in general in all the games he played compared to the "superior Jay Williams".....


----------



## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Well coming out Jay and Dajuan were considered the best two scoring guards coming out of college. Am I right on that, because I think I'am. So with that, Dajuan is doing a much better job at scoring beating NBA talent on offense. Sure Jay had 9 assits but Dajuan had 10 a few games back, and the Caves did win the game against Chicago so Dajuan was not unselfish in any way.
> 
> Jay Williams was predicted as a PG/SG when he came out, and not matter if Dajuan plays more minutes, you can't deni that he played better. What is scoring 20 a game is easy as a rookie that is what like 19 years old... And you can't say Dajuan is on a less talented team and can shoot because Davis shoots just as much a Dajuan at times.
> 
> Jay Williams was considered the hands down better player last year. And I faught that idea all the way. And yeah it is only a few games, but Dajuan had WAY more of a impact on those games that Jay. I can't believe how many people hate Dajuan Wagner. What does everyone what him to be a flop? Sorry fellas that will not happen!
> 
> Again Dajuan has had a bigger impact in general in all the games he played compared to the "superior Jay Williams".....


I couldn't agree more with everything you just said.


----------



## Jamel Irief

That sequence where Juanny blocked Jay's lay-up and dunked on the other end was pretty nice. Wagner is by far the more athletic of the two.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Well coming out Jay and Dajuan were considered the best two scoring guards coming out of college. Am I right on that, because I think I'am. So with that, Dajuan is doing a much better job at scoring beating NBA talent on offense. Sure Jay had 9 assits but Dajuan had 10 a few games back, and the Caves did win the game against Chicago so Dajuan was not unselfish in any way.
> 
> Jay Williams was predicted as a PG/SG when he came out, and not matter if Dajuan plays more minutes, you can't deni that he played better. What is scoring 20 a game is easy as a rookie that is what like 19 years old... And you can't say Dajuan is on a less talented team and can shoot because Davis shoots just as much a Dajuan at times.
> 
> Jay Williams was considered the hands down better player last year. And I faught that idea all the way. And yeah it is only a few games, but Dajuan had WAY more of a impact on those games that Jay. I can't believe how many people hate Dajuan Wagner. What does everyone what him to be a flop? Sorry fellas that will not happen!
> 
> Again Dajuan has had a bigger impact in general in all the games he played compared to the "superior Jay Williams".....


Jay Williams is a point guard, period. He hasn't played a single minute at the 2 all season. Saying that Wagner is better is impossible because not only do they play different positions, they play different roles. Wagner took 25 shots. Jay took 10. of course Wagner will score more by taking 15 more shots. Jay did what he needed to do and he did what he was asked to do. Wagner did as well.


----------



## rynobot

I think you got me wrong KC, I like both players very much, I actually like every player in the league. It is very hard or near impossible to compare Jay and Wagner to each other. Not only do they play a differnet position right now, they are in interily different schemes. 

Jay Williams is stuck playing the triangle offense, where no one knows what they are doing, and if they know what they are doing they don't like it. Jay is very limited in what he gets to do in the offense, not only that he has to share time with Jamal Crawford and let Jalen handle the ball too. The triangle offense doesn't fit the Bulls right now, and definitly doesn't fit the style of Jay Williams. He is stuck trying to find a role, yes he's the point guard but in the triangle it doesn't guarntee that he will have control of the team.

Dajuan Wagner is playing a dream inviroment. Yes, he is only 6'3" but he is a scorer. He is a two guard, he was a two guard at Memphis too. He may someday be a point guard, but he has lots to learn untill he masters being a distrubuter. Since the Cavs lack a superstar scorer, he can fit that role. Wagner can score points, that is what he does best, yes right now he is shotting a low percentage, but remember he's been out all year. He also gets to the line alot just like his idiol AI who most people compare him to. Wagner unlike Iverson can nail the 3, and is a better shooter, atleast that is what I was told. Wagner has absolute freedom on this team.

If these two players were to switch teams, Jay Williams would probably be putting up 16pts, 7asts on the Cavs and Wagner would be scoring 15pts if he was getting any mins on the Bulls. I feel that Jay will be a great pro and eventually joins the likes of Davis, Miller and Marbury, whereas Wagner may be another Iverson, which I'm sure everyone has heard thousands of times already.


----------



## p

I've been a Dajuan Wagner fan ever since watching a college game when he was at Memphis, when they showed footage and the statlines from when he scored 100 points in a high school game... i was speechless... dayum, the guy must have some kahones if he knew damn well that he was going to try and humilate a team like that... DW for Rookie of the YEAR!!!

peace


----------



## remy23

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> Jay Williams is a point guard, period. He hasn't played a single minute at the 2 all season. Saying that Wagner is better is impossible because not only do they play different positions, they play different roles. Wagner took 25 shots. Jay took 10. of course Wagner will score more by taking 15 more shots. Jay did what he needed to do and he did what he was asked to do. Wagner did as well.


Despite the fact both play different positions, you can say Dajuan is having a bigger impact. If you cannot say one player is better than the other because of positions, that would be like saying "I can't say Gary Payton is better than Latrell Sprewell because they are different positions." Impossible to say? Hardly. The season is still young, thus you cannot conclude who is better. But for the short bit of the season thus far, it seems apparent (and maybe it will change down the road).


----------



## RSP83

What if.. you switch the team...
Juanny with the Bulls..
Jay with the Cavs...

wwooooww... it's going to be sooooooooo different...

whadya think ?

do u think Jay would be the same Jay ?
and would Juanny do the same thing? I have no doubt on Juanny's scoring ability (he'll be a superstar)... but... Juanny has to face the ol' triangle offense... and deal with Mr. Cartwright...
interesting... what about sharing the ball with Rose? hmmm... 

but, it's only ...what if...


----------



## RSP83

however.. it's still interesting to think about ..


----------



## Steez

Wow, my first topic and the post is so hot!
I feel proud of myself lol...

I was wrong about Wagner, the guy is really doing great... so far, hes my co-rookie of the year with Yao Ming... both are doing great, except for Mings inconsistencent play.


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>remy23</b>!
> 
> 
> Despite the fact both play different positions, you can say Dajuan is having a bigger impact. If you cannot say one player is better than the other because of positions, that would be like saying "I can't say Gary Payton is better than Latrell Sprewell because they are different positions." Impossible to say? Hardly. The season is still young, thus you cannot conclude who is better. But for the short bit of the season thus far, it seems apparent (and maybe it will change down the road).


I don't think you can say that DaJuan has had more impact. I think Jay has done what has been asked of him. Gary Payton is better than Latrell Sprewell in almost everything. That isn't the case with Wagner and Williams. A better comparison might be Allen Iverson or Andre Miller? Well, do you want a guy throwing up a lot of shots? Or do you want someone to manage a game and get others involved on a consistent basis?


----------



## Da Grinch

Iverson is a former mvp, miller isn't in his class

and you can watch a 76er game then watch a clipper game it will be obvious that one of the players mentioned is a top 10 player in the league and the other is a good young point guard but definitely on a lower tier becuase no one will confuse him with a superstar 

and as far as the bulls-cavs game it was also obvious who had the better game 

cavs fans rejoice in a victory after about a month straight of losing and wags was a big reason why if you dont want to argue stats fine but impact often shows up in who won and why (statswise i dont feel either had that great a game)


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> Iverson is a former mvp, miller isn't in his class
> 
> and you can watch a 76er game then watch a clipper game it will be obvious that one of the players mentioned is a top 10 player in the league and the other is a good young point guard but definitely on a lower tier becuase no one will confuse him with a superstar


One statement made, one statement over someone's head. :sigh: 

I wasn't comparing them as players, I was comparing their styles of play.


----------



## Da Grinch

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> One statement made, one statement over someone's head. :sigh:
> 
> I wasn't comparing them as players, I was comparing their styles of play.


cute KC, but in this world of threads one only has to look back and see this comparison (originally from you by the way) was made because you said Wagner & williams cant be compared because the play different styles 

which is of course wrong 

just like you can compare iverson and miller

i got your point but apparently my response was a little too much for you


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> cute KC, but in this world of threads one only has to look back and see this comparison (originally from you by the way) was made because you said Wagner & williams cant be compared because the play different styles
> 
> which is of course wrong
> 
> just like you can compare iverson and miller
> 
> i got your point but apparently my response was a little too much for you


No, I didn't say you can't compare their styles of play. I was pointing out that they are different players, so they should be analyzed differently. For instance, you aren't going to expect 30 shots from Andre Miller. And you aren't going to expect 15 assists from Allen Iverson. It is all relative. Get it?


----------



## Da Grinch

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> No, I didn't say you can't compare their styles of play. I was pointing out that they are different players, so they should be analyzed differently. For instance, you aren't going to expect 30 shots from Andre Miller. And you aren't going to expect 15 assists from Allen Iverson. It is all relative. Get it?



saying wagner is better is impossible not only do they play different positions they have different roles-KC page 7 6th post

no its obvious to me that on page 6 you said they cant be compared because they play differently 

but on page 8 you say they can 

why the hostility? you are wrong and are contradicting yourself 

instead of getting mad at me for voicing my opinion maybe you should be more clear in your thoughts and not be so wishy washy 

you'll be better off


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> saying wagner is better is impossible not only do they play different positions they have different roles-KC page 7 6th post
> 
> no its obvious to me that on page 6 you said they cant be compared because they play differently
> 
> but on page 8 you say they can
> 
> why the hostility? you are wrong and are contradicting yourself
> 
> instead of getting mad at me for voicing my opinion maybe you should be more clear in your thoughts and not be so wishy washy
> 
> you'll be better off


I think you need to understand the difference between style of play and who is the better player. I didn't say that they can't be compared because they play differently. I said because they play different positions, and they have different roles. You can't judge who the better player is. You can however, compare their styles of play. I don't know why you don't get that. It isn't contradicting at all.

One guy gets assists, one guy gets points. Who is the better player? It is impossible to tell, especially if they have different roles on their respective teams.


----------



## The Krakken

Makes perfect sense to me........


----------



## The Krakken

Dejaun Wagner
PS Min FGA-FGM 3PA-3PM FTA-FTM Off Reb Ast Stl Blk TO PF TP

G *38* * 6-17* 0-2 6-7 0 *0* 7 0 0 2 2 *18*

J. Williams
G *32* *6-11* 0-3 2-4 1 *5* 6 1 0 1 2 *14*

Just to see who is wearing the tainted glasses in this thread, tell me what you think of tonights matchup, and comparison. 

Who won this time???


----------



## Da Grinch

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> I think you need to understand the difference between style of play and who is the better player. I didn't say that they can't be compared because they play differently. I said because they play different positions, and they have different roles. You can't judge who the better player is. You can however, compare their styles of play. I don't know why you don't get that. It isn't contradicting at all.
> 
> One guy gets assists, one guy gets points. Who is the better player? It is impossible to tell, especially if they have different roles on their respective teams.


well if you are going to go by points and assist today the bulls and cavs squared off again and wagner had more in both categories

and if you are going to go by roles on the team wagner in less games already seems to be counted on by the cavs than the bulls count on the williams 

and i do understand the difference between different styles and being a different type player 

tim duncan and shawn bradley have different styles of play, play different roles and different positions and none of this stops anybody from telling who is the better player(its duncan by the way )

i define better by whom gets more accomplished on a court and their positive impact . in the nba all the players are talented (especially the high picks)and could put up stats in right system and if the team choose to focus around them

you are wrong and are trying to justify you position but your reasons hold no water


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> well if you are going to go by points and assist today the bulls and cavs squared off again and wagner had more in both categories
> 
> and if you are going to go by roles on the team wagner in less games already seems to be counted on by the cavs than the bulls count on the williams
> 
> and i do understand the difference between different styles and being a different type player
> 
> tim duncan and shawn bradley have different styles of play, play different roles and different positions and none of this stops anybody from telling who is the better player(its duncan by the way )
> 
> i define better by whom gets more accomplished on a court and their positive impact . in the nba all the players are talented (especially the high picks)and could put up stats in right system and if the team choose to focus around them
> 
> you are wrong and are trying to justify you position but your reasons hold no water


Are you trying to say that the Wagner is to Williams , as Duncan is to Bradley? After a handful of games, you have come to that conclusion? The Cavs count on Wagner because they don't really have any veteran leadership. The Bulls have Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall. The Cavs have Ricky Davis and the oft-injured Zydrunas Ilgauskas. The Bulls are in a position where they don't need to rely on Jay to score 20+ points per night. The Cavs need Wagner's scoring. Do you see the difference?


Yes, tonight Wagner had 4 more points and 1 more assist. He also played 6 more minutes (half a quarter) and took 6 more shots. If you want to talk about efficiency, Jay shot 54.5% from the field. Wagner shot 35.3%. Jay had 5 rebounds, Wagner had none.

Now, if you are gonna make a decision after less than 10 NBA games played by Wagner, that is your choice. Most others like to take the time to evaluate over a longer period of time.


----------



## Da Grinch

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you trying to say that the Wagner is to Williams , as Duncan is to Bradley? After a handful of games, you have come to that conclusion? The Cavs count on Wagner because they don't really have any veteran leadership. The Bulls have Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall. The Cavs have Ricky Davis and the oft-injured Zydrunas Ilgauskas. The Bulls are in a position where they don't need to rely on Jay to score 20+ points per night. The Cavs need Wagner's scoring. Do you see the difference?
> 
> 
> Yes, tonight Wagner had 4 more points and 1 more assist. He also played 6 more minutes (half a quarter) and took 6 more shots. If you want to talk about efficiency, Jay shot 54.5% from the field. Wagner shot 35.3%. Jay had 5 rebounds, Wagner had none.
> 
> Now, if you are gonna make a decision after less than 10 NBA games played by Wagner, that is your choice. Most others like to take the time to evaluate over a longer period of time.


lets see where to begin I'll guess i'll just answer it all in order

duncan compared to bradley anology was an extreme example to prove my point that any players can be compared 

i thought it was fairly obvious but well ...maybe not in your case

you say the cavs need wagner's scoring more than the bulls need williams due to personel 

well davis and ilgauskas actually avg. 37.7 points combined (marshall & rose avg. 38.0) so thats not exactly accurate now is it? especially when you consider they have miles(who has not played with wagner yet) and boozer( since he has begun starting) both of whom produce at a clip better than their bull counterparts (chandler and hassell) so as far as actual production the cavs would seem to be a deeper team scoringwise

and as far as veteran leadership goes every single player on both teams is older than wagner so i doubt the cavs are looking to him for that veteran leadership you speak of and there are a few repected vets on the cavs roster whom i think can draw from past experiences

also you brought up making statements based on a short amount of games

and if i'm not mistaken there is a poster running around with signiture that is quoting you making a judgement of williams being better than jamal crawford(not just better but saying crawford could never equal the game williams had against the nets) based off of a single game that he has not come close to duplicating 

you'll say alot but your actions often contradict you 

me on the other hand instead of trying to argue merely speak my mind 

look down read the signature ...you should take the advice


----------



## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> lets see where to begin I'll guess i'll just answer it all in order
> 
> duncan compared to bradley anology was an extreme example to prove my point that any players can be compared
> 
> i thought it was fairly obvious but well ...maybe not in your case


LOL, nice comeback. I never said players can't be compared. You can compare Wagner and Williams all you want. However, you aren't going to come away with a conclusion on who is better at this stage in their careers. 



> you say the cavs need wagner's scoring more than the bulls need williams due to personel
> 
> well davis and ilgauskas actually avg. 37.7 points combined (marshall & rose avg. 38.0) so thats not exactly accurate now is it? especially when you consider they have miles(who has not played with wagner yet) and boozer( since he has begun starting) both of whom produce at a clip better than their bull counterparts (chandler and hassell) so as far as actual production the cavs would seem to be a deeper team scoringwise
> 
> and as far as veteran leadership goes every single player on both teams is older than wagner so i doubt the cavs are looking to him for that veteran leadership you speak of and there are a few repected vets on the cavs roster whom i think can draw from past experiences


Scoring and veteran leadership, wrapped into one is what Rose and Marshall bring. They have been in the league longer, they have experience. Williams isn't counted on to take the same amount of shots. Wagner is, and that is evident in the sats. 

_"He can score, but he takes plenty of shots," Cartwright said of Wagner. "I'm not sure I want our guys to play that way."_

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/081sd8.htm



> also you brought up making statements based on a short amount of games
> 
> and if i'm not mistaken there is a poster running around with signiture that is quoting you making a judgement of williams being better than jamal crawford(not just better but saying crawford could never equal the game williams had against the nets) based off of a single game that he has not come close to duplicating
> 
> you'll say alot but your actions often contradict you
> 
> me on the other hand instead of trying to argue merely speak my mind
> 
> look down read the signature ...you should take the advice


Crawford has had 3 years to prove himself. He has never come close to a triple-double. Williams had one in his 7th game. Do you see the difference in that comparison?

If you want to continue this discussion, PM me. Otherwise, it is obvious that you are more intersted in thinking of "funny" one-liners than actually having a logical discussion. I'm done checking in on this thread.


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## Da Grinch

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> LOL, nice comeback. I never said players can't be compared. You can compare Wagner and Williams all you want. However, you aren't going to come away with a conclusion on who is better at this stage in their careers.
> 
> 
> 
> Scoring and veteran leadership, wrapped into one is what Rose and Marshall bring. They have been in the league longer, they have experience. Williams isn't counted on to take the same amount of shots. Wagner is, and that is evident in the sats.
> 
> _"He can score, but he takes plenty of shots," Cartwright said of Wagner. "I'm not sure I want our guys to play that way."_
> 
> http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/081sd8.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Crawford has had 3 years to prove himself. He has never come close to a triple-double. Williams had one in his 7th game. Do you see the difference in that comparison?
> 
> If you want to continue this discussion, PM me. Otherwise, it is obvious that you are more intersted in thinking of "funny" one-liners than actually having a logical discussion. I'm done checking in on this thread.


whether you realize it or not you already were judging williams abilities after 7 games making him out to be better than crawford over a game that has until otherwise proven is a fluke(since he hasn't gotten in double figures in rebounds or assist since that game)

also JC's to my knowledge has never gotten more than 31 min. in a game a big difference considering williams had 45 in his famous trip-double


and if memory serves a man named bumper johnson had a triple double in his 5th game (who is bumper johnson you ask a nobody thats who) so i'm going to say jay wil is going to need a little more than one lone game to prove himself 

at least wagner has put together a string of solid performances which is something williams despite more time in the league has thus far failed to do


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