# UPDATE: Gay to Raptors agreed in principle MERGED



## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

> @SamAmicoFSO: RT @HoopsonFOX: REPORTS: #Grizzlies looking to trade Rudy Gay http://t.co/VCIXtVok”


...

http://nba.si.com/2013/01/04/rudy-gay-trade-rumors-grizzlies-court-vision/


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## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

I'm surprised about this


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

I'm not. They want under the luxury tax line and I suspect that Gay's more trouble than he's worth.


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## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

The raptors for Calderon and Ross


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

Threeway deal 

Pau to Minnesota
Williams, Kirilenko and Shved to Memphis
Gay to Lakers.


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## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



King Sancho Fantastic said:


> Threeway deal
> 
> Pau to Minnesota
> Williams, Kirilenko and Shved to Memphis
> Gay to Lakers.


Argh I would hate for this to happen


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

Rudy Gay on the same team as Bryant and Dwight Howard? Atlanta approves of this, it pretty much guarantees that Howard wants out by year's end.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

The can have Monta's expiring deal for him.. it would make sense for both Milwaukee and Memphis.. the Bucks would have gay for 3 more years when its likely that Ellis will opt out and Memphis would get a guy that can come in and score and keep them right in contention this year and then let him walk after the season.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

C'mon Suns. Go get Gay...


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## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

Gay for Pierce only works if Pierce plays another 3 years and it gives Memphis a serious player in the clutch. Gay on the Celtics sets them back.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



NOFX22 said:


> Gay on the Celtics sets them back.


I agree. He is, apparently, a close personal friend of Rondo. Combine a moody ball dominator with an equally moody volume shooter buddy and I'll show you a team going nowhere fast.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



King Sancho Fantastic said:


> Threeway deal
> 
> Pau to Minnesota
> Williams, Kirilenko and Shved to Memphis
> Gay to Lakers.


How does this trade make anyone better other than the grizz? Lakers lose depth, minny doubles up on pf while losing the rest of their starting lineup


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



Hyperion said:


> How does this trade make anyone better other than the grizz? Lakers lose depth, minny doubles up on pf while losing the rest of their starting lineup


Gay would start at the 3 with Metta backing him up. Jordan Hill moves into the starting lineup at the 4 with Jamison becoming his primary backup. Hill mans the 5 to spell Dwight with Gay or Metta slotting at the 4 in certain situation. 

Nash Blake Morris Duhon
Kobe Meeks
Gay Metta Ebanks
Hill Jamison Metta Gay
Dwight Hill Sacre

Starting lineup gets younger and much more athletic defensively while not losing too much in terms of scoring punch (Gay)or rebounding (Hill). The only thing we do lose out on is we have less facilitating from the high post which Pau is superb at. 

Minnesota gets a CENTER to facilitate Adelman's motion offense while having a three headed big man rotation of Pau, Love and Pek. Rubio stay happy because he gets someone to be spanish with. They also have the center issue fixed in case someone decides to overpay Pek, which in all likelyhood will happen.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

The Lakers can't let Pau go before securing Howard to a long-term deal this summer. Same reason Bledsoe isn't going anywhere for the Clippers either.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



NOFX22 said:


> I'm surprised about this


I'm not with Hollinger now probably calling the shots. Gay's PER is barely above benchwarmer level this year. And is owed 16, 17, 18 million coming up (I think)


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

Gay for Granger makes sense. 

What about 
Gay to atl.
J Smooth to h-town
Parsons Paterson Aldrich White 2 2nd red picks to grizz


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

Paul George.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

The Grizz feel like they didn't miss Gay last year and and Gay makes a lot of money for a long time. All he really does is hit shots. He doesn't defend or handle the ball or drive much. He makes more than Gasol and about the same as Zach and he isn't nearly the player they are. 

Laker will be rebuilding in two years to they won't take any deal that extends beyond that. Some team back east will take Gay. Lots of dumb teams back there.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



hroz said:


> Gay for Granger makes sense.
> 
> What about
> Gay to atl.
> ...


As much as I'd love Smith, Atnalta is not dealing him, they're preparing to make a run at Namrepus.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



Pacers Fan said:


> Paul George.


What? **** that shit.


I hate your opinion regarding the Pacers. ****ing hate it. 



You're the worst.


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## Maravilla (Jul 6, 2010)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



Dissonance said:


> C'mon Suns. Go get Gay...


If only we had dealt Amare for him back in the day... smh. Or, Amare for anything really...?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



King Sancho Fantastic said:


> Threeway deal
> 
> Pau to Minnesota
> Williams, Kirilenko and Shved to Memphis
> Gay to Lakers.


at this point if the lakers can get that from minnesota (and maybe see about Buddinger) forget Gay


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



chilltown said:


> If only we had dealt Amare for him back in the day... smh. Or, Amare for anything really...?


Or made any decent trade... or signing.... or draft...


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



chilltown said:


> If only we had dealt Amare for him back in the day... smh. Or, Amare for anything really...?


Yea....they should've traded him to the Cavs when they had the chance. Dumb idiots screwed themselves over in the long run.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

That Cavs deal was ****ing awful. Expirings, late pick(s) and cap space. It doesn't make em any better now. Even made a WCF run after so.

And Hickson was never make or break. Suns wanted a viable vet PF to stay in playoffs which is why they tried to get Boozer from Utah in a 3 way in Cavs deal. 


I remember Suns asked for Gay, pick, and Conley for Amare previously. I also remember reading Memphis GM was interested but owner overruled him saying it was too much. Which it was.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Yea....they should've traded him to the Cavs when they had the chance. Dumb idiots screwed themselves over in the long run.


They had a chance to swing him for KG, but opted for Marion instead (which was stupid). Imagine a defensive lineup featuring both KG and Marion. That would have been the greatest perimeter defensive team in the league


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

Oh, god, I had forgotten about that. I think I did my best to block it out. We all agreed at the time, ship Amare out get KG. It made sense too upgrade wise. As well as scheme, instead of sending out Marion. You have 3/4 coverered defensively. But Kerr just got the job so he pussied out. Marion did screw himself not agreeing to C's near MAX extension though.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



LA68 said:


> The Grizz feel like they didn't miss Gay last year and and Gay makes a lot of money for a long time. *All he really does is hit shots*. He doesn't defend or handle the ball or drive much. He makes more than Gasol and about the same as Zach and he isn't nearly the player they are.


only 41% of them for a volume shooter. Eek


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

Only way to trade Gay is to do a straight up salary dump. His salary is just not in line with the impact that he makes and no one is going to be willing to part with much of value to get him.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



E.H. Munro said:


> I agree. He is, apparently, a close personal friend of Rondo. Combine a moody ball dominator with an equally moody volume shooter buddy and I'll show you a team going nowhere fast.


I don't think Boston makes the best trade partner, but if Memphis wants to listen to something built around Green and Courtney Lee I'd gladly take Rudy aboard. You'd essentially be running back the Jeff Green logic with a guy more likely to actually produce, but in the end I think Memphis hangs up the phone.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



King Sancho Fantastic said:


> Threeway deal
> 
> Pau to Minnesota
> Williams, Kirilenko and Shved to Memphis
> Gay to Lakers.


Minny's trading AK and Shved for Pau? Can't see it. Bad trade for the Lakers anyway.



roux2dope said:


> The can have Monta's expiring deal for him.. it would make sense for both Milwaukee and Memphis.. the Bucks would have gay for 3 more years when its likely that Ellis will opt out and Memphis would get a guy that can come in and score and keep them right in contention this year and then let him walk after the season.


Makes no sense to downgrade from Gay when their intention is clearly to improve.



E.H. Munro said:


> I agree. He is, apparently, a close personal friend of Rondo. Combine a moody ball dominator with an equally moody volume shooter buddy and I'll show you a team going nowhere fast.


Feels like a bad trade for both teams. Lateral move at best.



OneBadLT123 said:


> I'm not with Hollinger now probably calling the shots. Gay's PER is barely above benchwarmer level this year. And is owed 16, 17, 18 million coming up (I think)


This.



R-Star said:


> What? **** that shit.
> 
> 
> I hate your opinion regarding the Pacers. ****ing hate it.
> ...


Honestly. Any GM that trades George for Gay should be euthanized.


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

Yeah probably give him away for Steve Blake or something.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

This would certainly be Hollinger putting his stamp on this franchise. He's been saying for the past three years that they play better without Rudy than they do with him. Hope he has the chance to put his money where his mouth is by dumping him for nothing but draft picks and future prospects.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

Exactly. As soon as he was hired, my first thought was Gay will be gone soon if he has enough pull.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

I just want to see some Gay-Love offenses in Minnesota.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

Minny would look great with Gay-Pek-Love up front.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Hyperion said:


> I just want to see some Gay-Love offenses in Minnesota.


It should make for hard penetration. 


Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



Jamel Irief said:


> It should make for hard penetration.


They'd probably penetrate defenses over and over


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

something something something backdoor plays


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



Pacers Fan said:


> Paul George.


!!!


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

Gay-Love parade to the free throw line. 

Gay and Love will nail it from the arc

Gay-Love won't stop you from scoring.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*











> _*Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA*
> Y! Sources: Memphis, Phoenix engaged in trade discussions on Rudy Gay. http://tinyurl.com/bdopadj_


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

Weird, didn't see Phoenix as a good trade partner for Memphis. I guess there's a third team that would be involved?


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

Seems as though Gortat to Boston or some other team that needs a center would have to be a part of any realistic deal


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

Boston has a center, they need a post-up 4.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*











> _*Sam Amico ‏@SamAmicoFSO*
> Always said results of NBA lockout will show in 2013. If you want to know why Griz trying to trade Rudy Gay, here's your answer: Luxury tax._


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

I said back when Mike Conley got that extension it was going to cost them one or two other starters.


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## l0st1 (Jul 2, 2010)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

Apparently Memphis wants Dudley + future picks. If we can somehow hold on to any valuable picks and send maybe the Minny/Memphis pick and/or Lakers pick then do it. I don't care about the cap implications.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



Bogg said:


> I said back when Mike Conley got that extension it was going to cost them one or two other starters.


Someone bump that Conley thread (again).


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



l0st1 said:


> Apparently Memphis wants Dudley + future picks. If we can somehow hold on to any valuable picks and send maybe the Minny/Memphis pick and/or Lakers pick then do it. I don't care about the cap implications.


Give them Beasley. Dudley is a quality player and a fan favorite. If we're going to help Memphis dump salary, we're not going to make them better too.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

I'm not surprised by Dudley's name getting in the mix. He has always been a Hollinger favorite.


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## l0st1 (Jul 2, 2010)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



Hyperion said:


> Give them Beasley. Dudley is a quality player and a fan favorite. If we're going to help Memphis dump salary, we're not going to make them better too.


I agree we should try to dump a contract first and foremost but I doubt they are willing to take on Beasley's contract. Defeats the purpose of a full on salary dump.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



Jamel Irief said:


> Someone bump that Conley thread (again).


You know, I'm sure that's sarcastic, but I tried to find it just to see what I said and it was trashed at some point.


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

Not sure why the Suns even want Gay. They need to be acquiring as many 2014 picks as they can, not adding salary in Gay for a low priced, equally valuable player in Dudley.

Im sure Gay will help sell a few tickets, but I dont see free agents clamoring to play with him in Phoenix. Its a meh deal, as long as its the Memphis/Lakers pick. Any worthwhile 1st should be off limits.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



l0st1 said:


> I agree we should try to dump a contract first and foremost but I doubt they are willing to take on Beasley's contract. Defeats the purpose of a full on salary dump.


I'm no Stephen Hawking, but 17 million is not less than 6 million.

Dudley's contract is only (ONLY) a million less than Beasley's a year. If they are so desperate to get under the luxury tax and unload a player that will only hurt our draft position for this summer, they get our poo poo platter.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Bogg said:


> You know, I'm sure that's sarcastic, but I tried to find it just to see what I said and it was trashed at some point.


I found it, it was moved to the Memphis board. 


Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



Jamel Irief said:


> I found it, it was moved to the Memphis board.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


It wasn't in the archives?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

They're going to regret trading him if they do. This reminds me of wondering why the Celtics were so eager to get rid of Rondo

I know Gay's expensive but so what, pay him. I mean why did you pay him if now you don't want to pay him, he hasn't given any reason to show he's not worth the money. He's a dynamic wing player and if he was on another team he'd be getting numbers that demonstrate that. He plays LeBron particularly well, if you get to the finals that will matter.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



Dre said:


> They're going to regret that. I know he's expensive but pay him. He's a dynamic wing player and if he was on another team he'd be getting numbers that demonstrate that. He plays LeBron particularly well, if you get to the finals that will matter.


But like 8 guys on the Internet say he sucks.


Trade him. Hollinger stats! PER!


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



Jamel Irief said:


> I found it, it was moved to the Memphis board.


Well, that's what I thought, but I just looked right now and still couldn't find it. If I search the entire site it shows up in the "trash threads" section for me. Unless I'm just a moron, which seems like it's more and more likely these days.

EDIT: Also, the C's haven't exactly been eager to get rid of Rondo. They tried to trade him and Ray to Detroit for Rip, Prince, and Stuckey back in 2008; him and Ray to Phoenix for Amare around 2010; and they wanted to swap him for Chris Paul. Other than that, he's mostly been thrown into hypotheticals by bloggers and people like us.


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## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

The Toronto Raptors are amongst the teams interested in trading for Rudy Gay should the Memphis Grizzlies decide to trade him, according to sources.

The Raptors have had preliminary talks with the Grizzlies.

Toronto is said to be offering a package centered around Jose Calderon, Ed Davis and future picks for Gay.

The Grizzlies are exploring trade scenarios for Gay, but have not yet determined if they will absolutely move him before the February deadline.

The Raptors tried to trade for Gay in June, even offering a package including their eighth overall pick that became Terrence Ross.

Via Marc Stein/ESPN


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

Caleron is expiring if I'm not wrong, which right there should be exactly what Memphis wants. 

Gay and Derozan makes for a slick scoring tandem.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*

*Raptors want in on Rudy Gay chase*



> Sources told ESPN.com this week that the Raptors -- who tried to make a play for Gay before the 2012 NBA draft -- remain seriously "interested" in the Grizzlies' leading scorer and are trying to assemble trade packages to bring the 26-year-old to Toronto after preliminary talks with Memphis.
> 
> Among the trade chips that the Raptors are believed to be dangling, in addition to draft considerations, are veteran point guard Jose Calderon (who has an expiring contract worth $10.6 million) and young big man Ed Davis.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Lowry, Derozan, Gay, Bargs, and JoVal? I suppose being Denver East isn't so bad.


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Much better move for the Raptors than it is for the Suns. I guess this explains ZBO being on the block. Complete rehaul in Memphis.


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## l0st1 (Jul 2, 2010)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



Hyperion said:


> I'm no Stephen Hawking, but 17 million is not less than 6 million.
> 
> Dudley's contract is only (ONLY) a million less than Beasley's a year. If they are so desperate to get under the luxury tax and unload a player that will only hurt our draft position for this summer, they get our poo poo platter.


I didn't say they don't save money. But teams that are looking to dump quality players due to cap concerns don't normally take back a multi year deal for a guy that is currently not playing on the 4th worst team in the league. That was my point.

Dudley may make roughly the same but he is a well rounded player that doesn't hurt a team, never once has Beasley been described as anything remotely close to that.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Bogg said:


> Lowry, Derozan, Gay, Bargs, and JoVal? I suppose being Denver East isn't so bad.


That may be the least efficient scoring team in the NBA. I'm going to laugh my ass off when DD and Gay come to blows over the other shooting too much.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> That may be the least efficient scoring team in the NBA. I'm going to laugh my ass off when DD and Gay come to blows over the other shooting too much.


Yes. Because Derozan is a proven career chucker.....


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> That may be the least efficient scoring team in the NBA. I'm going to laugh my ass off when DD and Gay come to blows over the other shooting too much.


Yea, you look at some of the rosters that teams are fielding right now and consider that Gay's the only guy who even wants to shoot as much as a franchise guy, and I'm not too worried about that. It's an up-tempo running team that tops out as a bottom-four playoff squad with the right bench. You could do worse. You could do much better, but you could do worse.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: TWITTER UPDATE: Phoenix, Memphis in Rudy Gay Trade Talks*



l0st1 said:


> I didn't say they don't save money. But teams that are looking to dump quality players due to cap concerns don't normally take back a multi year deal for a guy that is currently not playing on the 4th worst team in the league. That was my point.
> 
> Dudley may make roughly the same but he is a well rounded player that doesn't hurt a team, never once has Beasley been described as anything remotely close to that.


This still doesn't make sense. They HAVE a multiyear deal in Gay. A much larger multiyear deal. The contract extends for the same period and the Suns only have four decent players (and I'm using that word liberally). Why should they trade one of them in a SALARY DUMP!? The understanding is that they will be taking a player that won't get anywhere near the same minutes as Gay. 

So why would the Suns do that?


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## l0st1 (Jul 2, 2010)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

I don't know how you're reading my post but I didn't say the Suns SHOULD do the Dudley, they should be trying to make it Beasley. But I was saying it doesn't make sense for the Grizzlies to take Beasley back. If I were in their shoes I would definitely say Dudley or bust. Because they have the Raptors as an insurance policy with Calderons huge expiring contract.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

I almost wonder if Detroit should get in on this with a package built around Prince, who no longer makes sense for them.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Bogg said:


> I almost wonder if Detroit should get in on this with a package built around Prince, who no longer makes sense for them.


Prince, Maggette's expiring, and their lottery pick would probably get the job done. Memphis won't refuse, and Detroit shouldn't. I actually like that idea a lot for both teams.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

I like Rudy Gay to Toronto a lot. Lowry, Derozan, Ross, Gay and Jonas would be a fun group to build around and watch. Jose Calderon is probably gone at the end of the year anyways and although Ed Davis has really improved, it would still be worth the swap to bring in Rudy Gay.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Knick Killer said:


> I like Rudy Gay to Toronto a lot. Lowry, Derozan, Ross, Gay and Jonas would be a fun group to build around and watch. Jose Calderon is probably gone at the end of the year anyways and although Ed Davis has really improved, it would still be worth the swap to bring in Rudy Gay.


TO seems dead set on dealing Jose (if rumors are to be believed), so this seems like a pretty good deal for them. 

Also clearly puts the franchise guy tag on Gay, which hopefully takes pressure off of Bargs and he starts to play a little more consistent.


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## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

I'm only fine with this deal for the Raptors if BC has a side trade worked out for Bargnani. Giving up Ed Davis plus future draft considerations is a risky move. 

I took a lot of heat when I said that the Raptors are better with Bargnani out and Davis starting. But as everyone can see the Raptors are playing much, much better without him. 

It's interesting but I'd have to know what picks would be involved. And I'm not really impressed with his contract either. 

As a Raptors die hard I still don't know how I would feel if this trade happens. Hurts my brain to try and think about this too much, so I'm going to keep hoping for a Bargs trade and not think about this EVER AGAIN


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Whether or not Gay to Toronto would be good in the long run is irrelevant cause I could see BC making the deal just to save his ass from getting fired. 


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

I think bargs is overrated and overpaid but his absence has coincided with Lowry's arrival. And the raptors need shooters to spread the floor. Gay DeRozan Lowry Fields aren't exactly known for their shooting ability.


----------



## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Knick Killer said:


> Whether or not Gay to Toronto would be good in the long run is irrelevant cause I could see BC making the deal just to save his ass from getting fired.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


This is exactly what I am worried about. MLSE (Leafs/Raptors/TFC owners) are under new ownership and just fired Brian Burke (Leafs GM) out of the blue, which is probably going to make BC think they won't pick up his option unless he can show results.

I'd rather they just fire BC now and let a new guy come in and work without the fear of being fired after this season. Because this move puts Toronto as a 7th/8th seed at best for years to come. I'd rather suffer through a couple more losing seasons, than make a short sighted move like this.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



AllRim said:


> This is exactly what I am worried about. MLSE (Leafs/Raptors/TFC owners) are under new ownership and just fired Brian Burke (Leafs GM) out of the blue, which is probably going to make BC think they won't pick up his option unless he can show results.
> 
> I'd rather they just fire BC now and let a new guy come in and work without the fear of being fired after this season. Because this move puts Toronto as a 7th/8th seed at best for years to come. I'd rather suffer through a couple more losing seasons, than make a short sighted move like this.


How many losing seasons does your team need before it's in a winning position? Haven't they stunk since the early part of 2000s? They're not going to make a gangbusters run to the playoffs this year if they trade for Gay and at most it would be a lateral trade and Gay is a top SF in the league. You would be one excellent draft pick from a great team.


----------



## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Hyperion said:


> How many losing seasons does your team need before it's in a winning position? Haven't they stunk since the early part of 2000s? They're not going to make a gangbusters run to the playoffs this year if they trade for Gay and at most it would be a lateral trade and Gay is a top SF in the league. *You would be one excellent draft pick from a great team*.


Except, rumours are that Memphis would be looking for future draft considerations. And if that's a furture unprotected pick.....

On the other hand, would a core of Lowry/DD/Gay/JV be enough to attract FA'S to Toronto?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



AllRim said:


> Except, rumours are that Memphis would be looking for future draft considerations. And if that's a furture unprotected pick.....
> 
> On the other hand, would a core of Lowry/DD/Gay/JV be enough to attract FA'S to Toronto?


Nothing is ever going to be enough to attract big name FA's to TO. They need to either draft the talent, trade for it, or overpay.


This isn't the NHL. No one in the NBA wants to play in Canada unless they're forced to be there and grow to love it. The tax, cold and general stigma will always keep big name stars away when it comes to free agency.


----------



## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



R-Star said:


> Nothing is ever going to be enough to attract big name FA's to TO. They need to either draft the talent, trade for it, or overpay.
> 
> 
> This isn't the NHL. No one in the NBA wants to play in Canada unless they're forced to be there and grow to love it. The tax, cold and general stigma will always keep big name stars away when it comes to free agency.


It's sad because it's true....


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



AllRim said:


> It's sad because it's true....


Best you can hope for is that the guys you draft want to stay there. Like Derozan. Or that after playing there awhile Lowry decides he likes it and wants to be there.


I think players realize its a great place to play once they're forced to try it out.


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Yeah, for a franchise like the Raptors to land a big name free agent, its more likely they acquire one via trade.

Its the same reason that the Suns needed to make that trade for Harden. You get one legit star and the market becomes more attractive. Now, not saying that Toronto will be a destination like Phoenix could be, but you get my drift.

I dont think Gay puts the Raptors over the top, but talent is talent. The real problem would be that draft pick and where you envision Toronto being in the future. If that pick ends up being a lotto pick, the deal might not be worth it.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Toronto is a better city than half the teams in the league. 


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----------



## Ron (May 8, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Knick Killer said:


> Toronto is a better city than half the teams in the league.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


It's a nice city (been there), but the problem with Toronto is the tax structure. Players that play in Canadian cities (at this point in time, Toronto is the only one in the league) are penalized more than any other player in the league due to the high tax rates in that country.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Rudy Gay is not a number one scorer. He might be a number two but he is definitely a good #3. The thing in Toronto is that you don't have a #1, #2 or #3. Rudy Gay would solve that problem but as a Grizz fan who is aware of the cap implications of our contract situation I understand why we need to move him or someone else.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



MemphisX said:


> Rudy Gay is not a number one scorer. He might be a number two but he is definitely a good #3. The thing in Toronto is that you don't have a #1, #2 or #3. Rudy Gay would solve that problem but as a Grizz fan who is aware of the cap implications of our contract situation I understand why we need to move him or someone else.


While I agree with this assessment, the problem is that Rudy doesn't.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Ron said:


> It's a nice city (been there), but the problem with Toronto is the tax structure. Players that play in Canadian cities (at this point in time, Toronto is the only one in the league) are penalized more than any other player in the league due to the high tax rates in that country.


And the thing is, its by a wide margin. I don't know the exact numbers off the top of my head, but you're paying a shit ton more in tax if you're playing on the Raptors instead of an American team.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Didn't the new agreement rectify that? (question) 

The gulf between 8th and 9th seed in the East is large, not to mention they're competing to get handed by the Heat/Knicks come Playoffs. Gay is making no difference to that equation. 

He is similar to DD as well, he struggles with the same facets of the game. (outside shooting, D, ball movement)


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



R-Star said:


> Yes. Because Derozan is a proven career chucker.....


Yes, I'd say a guy with a usage rate of nearly 24, firing up more than 15 shots a game, with an aFG% of .455 and below average scoring efficiency is a chucker. You might have some different definition, but high usage rate, poor shooting, below average scoring efficiency players are the definition of chucker in my book.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



AllRim said:


> Except, rumours are that Memphis would be looking for future draft considerations. And if that's a furture unprotected pick.....
> 
> On the other hand, would a core of Lowry/DD/Gay/JV be enough to attract FA'S to Toronto?


Complicating matters is Colon Jello's refusal to deal an existing pick for Kyle Lowry. As a result you guys still owe a _lottery_ pick to OKC, which makes this trade more complicated. (And for the record I am eternally grateful to Colon Jello for outsmarting himself, because had he given in and sent his 2012 #1 to Houston for Lowry in a draft day deal I would be pulling my hair out while watching Namrepus stink up the joint, instead I get to enjoy the Beard.)


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Porn Player said:


> Didn't the new agreement rectify that? (question)


Yeah, I believe that the new agreement contains a provision to compensate the guys that play for Canuckian teams (just in case a franchise ever does go to Vancouver again) to help ameliorate the tax issues.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> Yes, I'd say a guy with a usage rate of nearly 24, firing up more than 15 shots a game, with an aFG% of .455 and below average scoring efficiency is a chucker. You might have some different definition, but high usage rate, poor shooting, below average scoring efficiency players are the definition of chucker in my book.


Do you honestly believe he understood anything you just wrote?


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Munro. Can you please give us a comprehensive list of all your nicknames so that we know who the **** you're talking about. 

Alphabetical order and double spaced please. Thanks big guy.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



King Sancho Fantastic said:


> Munro. Can you please give us a comprehensive list of all your nicknames so that we know who the **** you're talking about.
> 
> Alphabetical order and double spaced please. Thanks big guy.


How the hell could you not know who the Beard is? Have you not seen a Houston home game at all this year?


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> How the hell could you not know who the Beard is? Have you not seen a Houston home game at all this year?


Beard is easy. Colon Jello?? Namrepus?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Adam said:


> Do you honestly believe he understood anything you just wrote?


I honestly believe that he doesn't pay a lot of attention to the NBA outside the Pacers and likely had no clear idea about DeRozan aside from the fact that Raptors fans, on the whole, seem to love him. Now, DeRozan might be willing to accept a backseat to Rudy Gay, but Gay's an even less efficient scorer (and unlike DeRozan doesn't have an excuse given how good that Grizzlies squad is), and I just can't see that situation _not_ coming to a head sooner or later. Hence the joke.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



King Sancho Fantastic said:


> Beard is easy. Colon Jello?? Namrepus?


How could a Lakers fan not know what the inverse of superman is? You guys have to watch it nightly. As a Celtics fan _I_ find it painful. I can't fathom how you guys tolerate it.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Adam said:


> Do you honestly believe he understood anything you just wrote?


Ha. Adam trying to call out basketball smarts. 


Maybe he should write it in a failed math equation. That's what you like isn't it Adam? Failing to do even high school level math and then throwing a tantrum?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> I honestly believe that he doesn't pay a lot of attention to the NBA outside the Pacers and likely had no clear idea about DeRozan aside from the fact that Raptors fans, on the whole, seem to love him. Now, DeRozan might be willing to accept a backseat to Rudy Gay, but Gay's an even less efficient scorer (and unlike DeRozan doesn't have an excuse given how good that Grizzlies squad is), and I just can't see that situation _not_ coming to a head sooner or later. Hence the joke.


Go check the Raptors game threads I've posted in. Hell go check the majority of game threads. 

15 shots a game and you call him a chucker. That's ****ing hilarious EH. Keep spouting like you're a basketball guru though, and keep waiting for no one but R-Star and pathetic "Me Too!" Adam respond to them.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Was hoping EH or Adam would come back, but I guess not. 

Sure Derozan is tied for 22nd in the league for attempts, while being the leading scorer on his team, but hes a chucker. 

He should be more like Paul George, who's universally praised.... oh wait, they take the same amount of shots per game, but Derozan averages more points at a better shooting percentage. Crazy.


Some times I just shake my head at the handful of posters around here like EH who thinks just because hes a blowhard it somehow speaks to his basketball knowledge. I've seen well over 10 Raptor games this year, but hey I'm sure he's seen more than that.


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## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

DD a chucker? lol. I'm not a huge DD fan, but calling him a chucker is a little strange. 

Colon Jello = BC GM of the Raps for those who were wondering


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



R-Star said:


> 15 shots a game and you call him a chucker. That's ****ing hilarious EH. Keep spouting like you're a basketball guru though, and keep waiting for no one but R-Star and pathetic "Me Too!" Adam respond to them.


25th FGA
74th FG%
169th TS%

Yes, that's the guy you want taking the most shots on your team and burning up a quarter of the available possessions. No, really.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



AllRim said:


> DD a chucker? lol. I'm not a huge DD fan, but calling him a chucker is a little strange.
> 
> Colon Jello = BC GM of the Raps for those who were wondering


Its EH. He has no clue what he's talking about. He'll now proceed to talk down to everyone in the thread and make up weird crazy names.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> 25th FGA
> 74th FG%
> 169th TS%
> 
> Yes, that's the guy you want taking the most shots on your team and burning up a quarter of the available possessions. No, really.


So you're calling him a chucker still?

Paul George is also a chucker is he?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Paul George shoots at league average (in terms of aFG%) and scores with above average efficiency. So, no.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

I was kinda hoping EH was going to say Paul George is a chucker just to see R-Star flip out. 

"NO ONE TALKS SHIT ABOUT PAUL GEORGE MOTHER****ER!"


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> Paul George shoots at league average (in terms of aFG%) and scores with above average efficiency. So, no.


His 1.5 TS% points higher. That's pretty huge right?


Keep going though.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Paul George IS a chucker


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



-James- said:


> Paul George IS a chucker


What?


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Hold on let me get my popcorn ready


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Knick Killer said:


> Hold on let me get my popcorn ready
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


My relief gets here in a few minutes and then I'm off to dinner. 

What bad timing.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Nah, I'm just being an ass. 

I don't dislike George but I don't particularly care for him either (sorry, R-Star), but I'd never think of him as a chucker (same goes for DeRozan). I think it's pretty random to label either of them as such.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



-James- said:


> Nah, I'm just being an ass.
> 
> I don't dislike George but I don't particularly care for him either (sorry, R-Star), but I'd never think of him as a chucker (same goes for DeRozan). I think it's pretty random to label either of them as such.


Random and just plain incorrect.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Knick Killer said:


> I was kinda hoping EH was going to say Paul George is a chucker just to see R-Star flip out.
> 
> "NO ONE TALKS SHIT ABOUT PAUL GEORGE MOTHER****ER!"
> 
> ...


You're right. I screwed up. R-Star meltdowns are always so funny.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



R-Star said:


> His 1.5 TS% points higher. That's pretty huge right?


League Average
aFG% .490
ScEff 1.05

Paul George
aFG% .490
ScEff 1.05

DeMar DeRozan
aFG% .455
ScEff 1.02

One of those two guys is a terrible shooter, and doesn't get his scoring efficiency to league average at the charity stripe. One of them is average.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> League Average
> aFG% .490
> ScEff 1.05
> 
> ...


So what you're saying is, using your special numbers, Derozan is a chucker? That's what you're saying correct. A guy only shooting 15 times a game on decent FG% is a chucker because of your special numbers. Of course, using your stats Harden is not a chucker. I mean me, and this is just me, I think FG% is enough to go on, but that's just me.

I haven't seen Derozan play nearly as many times as the Great EH though. You've seen him a ton this year right EH? I haven't. I thought I had, but you told me I haven't so I guess I haven't. 

Makes sense. 


Was probably too much for me to assume you'd admit you're wrong for once.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

I have no idea what "special numbers" I'm using. We've been adjusting FG% for the value of three point shots for a generation, and scoring efficiency is also some 15 years old.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> I have no idea what "special numbers" I'm using. We've been adjusting FG% for the value of three point shots for a generation, and scoring efficiency is also some 15 years old.


And 15 shots a game and at 44% are his stats. 


Adjusting FG% for the value of three point shots? Ha..... Wow. So in your books, because Derozan is a sub par 3 point shooter at the whole whopping 1.7 times a game he shoots one it means hes a chucker. 


Oh ok.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

I'm sorry that your engineer's mind has such problems with grade school math.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> I'm sorry that your engineer's mind has such problems with grade school math.


Feel free to elaborate. I ask questions and you seem to not want to answer.

Go back and answer the previous post or quit posting. Dermar Derozans poor 3 point shooting on the whopping 1.7 shots he takes from behind the arc a game make him a chucker?


You haven't called him a chucker since your original post, where you questioned if I even watch him play. 


Again, elaborate about the math I'm having trouble understanding. The same math that makes 15 attempt a game Derozan a chucker, and _takes every shot he can get his arms to throw up_ Harden a superb team player. 


Or for once, admit you're wrong without adding a "but......" or "if you look at it......"


Nah, too much to ask. I look forward to your ingenious in the morning. I'm off to bed.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

You seem to be under the impression that .455 is _less_ than .439. It's not.

EDIT: As for Harden, let's look, shall we?

League Average
aFG% .490
ScEff 1.05

The Beard
aFG% .511
ScEff 1.21

Nope. Not a chucker.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

How exactly was I under the impression that .455 is less than .439?

Your definition of a chucker is anyone who shoots under league average?


You're kidding right?


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

The real question is how do you define chucker?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



MemphisX said:


> The real question is how do you define chucker?


A guy who seems to take a shot any time he has the chance. Often taking his team out of offensive flow in doing so. Jacking up a contested 3 even though there's 10+ seconds on the shot clock. Etc.

JR Smith if we talk about current players.

Cavs version Ricky Davis.

Gilbert Arenas.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Eddie House is a chucker. I didn't use the past tense because I believe he is still in some Saturday morning rec league chucking it up every chance he gets. That will not change.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



MemphisX said:


> The real question is how do you define chucker?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



R-Star said:


> How exactly was I under the impression that .455 is less than .439?


Because you're under the impression that aFG% penalises DeRozan by adjusting his FG% _upwards_ to account for the value of his three point shots. The reality is that raw FG% penalises guys like George for shooting 4-5 treys a game, even though he shoots them well. So when assessing the shooting ability of perimeter players, in order to compare apples to apples, you use the adjusted FG%.



R-Star said:


> Your definition of a chucker is anyone who shoots under league average?


My definition of a chucker is an inefficient shooter and scorer that just keeps forcing up shots. If you're making them, you ain't a chucker. Only a lunatic would call Durant or James a chucker, despite the amount of FGAs they generate. Why? Because they produce points efficiently, which is the entire point of the game.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> Because you're under the impression that aFG% penalises DeRozan by adjusting his FG% _upwards_ to account for the value of his three point shots. The reality is that raw FG% penalises guys like George for shooting 4-5 treys a game, even though he shoots them well. So when assessing the shooting ability of perimeter players, in order to compare apples to apples, you use the adjusted FG%.
> 
> 
> 
> My definition of a chucker is an inefficient shooter and scorer that just keeps forcing up shots. If you're making them, you ain't a chucker. Only a lunatic would call Durant or James a chucker, despite the amount of FGAs they generate. Why? Because they produce points efficiently, which is the entire point of the game.


You seem like you're trying to distance yourself here. 

Are you still calling Dermar Derozan a chucker? And who the hell called James or Durant chuckers?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Also, Derozan hardly ever shoots 3's, which is the point of saying its asinine to bring up his 3 point shooting in fancy percentages like its somehow a huge mark against him.


If he was shooting 4 from behind the arc a game that would make sense. But he doesn't.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



R-Star said:


> You seem like you're trying to distance yourself here.
> 
> Are you still calling Dermar Derozan a chucker? And who the hell called James or Durant chuckers?


Distance myself from what? I gave you my definition way back when and you keep demanding that I reiterate it. Let's see, is DeRozan an efficient shooter? Nope. Is he an efficient scorer? Nope. Does he shoot the ball a lot? Yep.



R-Star said:


> Also, Derozan hardly ever shoots 3's, which is the point of saying its asinine to bring up his 3 point shooting in fancy percentages like its somehow a huge mark against him.
> 
> If he was shooting 4 from behind the arc a game that would make sense. But he doesn't.


It does not matter whether or not he shoots a lot of treys, what matters, when evaluating shooters, is how well they shoot. So we compare apples to apples, and not durians. The leaguewide aFG% is .490, and that's the mark we judge shooters against. So, _again_, George is an average shooter and scores with average effciency, so his team isn't paying for all those shots the way Toronto does.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> Distance myself from what? I gave you my definition way back when and you keep demanding that I reiterate it. Let's see, is DeRozan an efficient shooter? Nope. Is he an efficient scorer? Nope. Does he shoot the ball a lot? Yep.
> 
> 
> 
> It does not matter whether or not he shoots a lot of treys, what matters, when evaluating shooters, is how well they shoot. So we compare apples to apples, and not durians. The leaguewide aFG% is .490, and that's the mark we judge shooters against. So, _again_, George is an average shooter and scores with average effciency, so his team isn't paying for all those shots the way Toronto does.


I'm sorry, I've asked about 5 times now, _are you still calling Derozan a chucker_?

Its not a tough question.


And again, have fun with your expanded stats John Hollinger. They're pointless. I'm one of the biggest Paul George fans out there, but he doesn't get special stats to me just because he shoots 3's. 

Paul George gets 17ppg on .422 shooting. 
DeMar Derozan gets 18ppg on .439 shooting.

They both take the same amount of shots per game. 

Are Paul Georges 3's magic and even though it doesn't show up in his scoring stats, they mean more? 

Since Derozan plays to his strengths and shoots more inside, do those count less than Georges points?


I always have to laugh at guys who try to use nerd stats to try to overcomplicate basketball and make themselves feel smart. DeMar scores one more point a game on the same amount of shots as Paul George because he does it more efficiently. Just because Paul shoots a ton more 3 pointers a game doesn't somehow make his points more impressive. 



Again. Keep trying. But this isn't baseball, Moneyball.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> Distance myself from what? I gave you my definition way back when and you keep demanding that I reiterate it. Let's see, is DeRozan an efficient shooter? Nope. Is he an efficient scorer? Nope. Does he shoot the ball a lot? Yep.
> 
> 
> 
> It does not matter whether or not he shoots a lot of treys, what matters, when evaluating shooters, is how well they shoot. So we compare apples to apples, and not durians. The leaguewide aFG% is .490, and that's the mark we judge shooters against. So, _again_, George is an average shooter and scores with average effciency, so his team isn't paying for all those shots the way Toronto does.


You're getting called out by a guy with a grocer's apostrophe above his avatar. How does that make you feel?


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

I love that Adam thinks he's funny. His rep is probably filled with so many "That's a good one" comments.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



R-Star said:


> I'm sorry, I've asked about 5 times now, _are you still calling Derozan a chucker_?
> 
> Its not a tough question.


I'm sorry that English isn't your first language. What is so that I can go to Google Translator and give you the answer in your native language. Maybe you're a Quebecois, so I'll try French



> Est-ce qu'il tire d'amabilité? Non. Est-il un buteur efficace? Non Est-ce qu'il faudra beaucoup de coups de feu? Oui.


Does that help?



R-Star said:


> And again, have fun with your expanded stats John Hollinger. They're pointless. I'm one of the biggest Paul George fans out there, but he doesn't get special stats to me just because he shoots 3's.


I'm sorry that grade school math is so far beyond your ken. But that's not my fault. Are you equally bad with trig & physics? A ball shot from 24' goes in less often than one from 15'. Of course, that long jumper is worth more.

Let's look at this per 100 shots, maybe this will make you understand

DeRozan throws up 100 two point shots and hits 44 of them, good 88 points

For some reason George throw up 100 consecutive treys, hitting 37 of them, good for 111 points.

Now, I know you think that 88 is more than 111, but it's really not.

Now, let's look at this using their actual ratios, approximately 11% of DeRozan's shots are treys and he shoots them at a 28.3% clip. While he shoots twos at a .458 clip. This means that in DeRozan's 100 shot sample he will shoot approximately 41/89 from two point range and 3/11 from three and will produce around 91 points.

On two point shots Paul George is 154/342 (.450) and approximately 36% of his shots are treys, meaning that in his 100 shot sample he will shoot around 13/36 from three point range and 28/64 from two for 95 points.

Now, you might think 91 is more than 95, but in the real world it's not.



R-Star said:


> Are Paul Georges 3's magic and even though it doesn't show up in his scoring stats, they mean more?


You understand that 3>2, right? It's not magic.



R-Star said:


> Since Derozan plays to his strengths and shoots more inside, do those count less than Georges points?


Well, let's see, shall we? 

NBA League Average
2FG% .476

DeMar DeRozan
2FG% .458

So apparently, even playing to his strengths and his "otherwordly" ability to score from two point range, DD is still below average. And still one of the NBA leaders in FGA. 




R-Star said:


> I always have to laugh at guys who try to use nerd stats to try to overcomplicate basketball and make themselves feel smart. DeMar scores one more point a game on the same amount of shots as Paul George because he does it more efficiently. Just because Paul shoots a ton more 3 pointers a game doesn't somehow make his points more impressive.


These are actually standard statistics and have been since I was your age. And, you're ignoring the FTA as possessions, because the NBA doesn't count missed shots on fouls as FGA but they're still possessions used by the shooter.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> I'm sorry that English isn't your first language. What is so that I can go to Google Translator and give you the answer in your native language. Maybe you're a Quebecois, so I'll try French
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Jesus. I just glazed over your post and went to the end as soon as I saw you were trying to be witty again. 

Does Paul George score more than Derozan? No? So even though he shoots 3's, DeMar gets more points at a better percentage. If you can't understand that, that's your issue, not mine. 3's count for 3, 2's count or 2, and somehow DeMar Derozan scores more points on a better percentage than Paul George. Not very complicated, unless you're "Look at how smart I am kids!" EH Munro. 

And to top if all off you still refuse to say again in an actual post that Derozan is a chucker. You just beat around the bush because once again, you're wrong and know it, but refuse to come to terms with it.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



R-Star said:


> Jesus. I just glazed over your post and went to the end as soon as I saw you were trying to be witty again.
> 
> Does Paul George score more than Derozan? No? So even though he shoots 3's, DeMar gets more points at a better percentage...


While taking more possessions to do it. Which is the problem. And I think I speak for everyone when I say it's reassuring to know that oil company engineers glaze over when confronted with basic math.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> While taking more possessions to do it. Which is the problem. And I think I speak for everyone when I say it's reassuring to know that oil company engineers glaze over when confronted with basic math.


Uhhhh.....

The .02 more shot attempts Derozan takes? That "is the problem"? That .02 shots a game that gets him an extra 1 point a game, again, at a better shooting percentage.



This is just...... I don't know if its frustrating or just sad. I mean its clear at this point that you know you're wrong, but you keep trying weak attempts like "Don't you get math?" Well yea I do, that's why I explained Derozan gets more points on the same amount of shots (.02? Are you ****ing kidding me?) at a better percentage. So its clear that math, as well as common sense is evading you, not me. I assume you're aware of that as well, which is why you try weak attempts to keep pushing "You're stupid. You don't get the math."


I honestly wish other people didn't just ignore you so they could have a couple laugh posts.



You're just in general a sad person EH. I think the day you finally say something like "You know what, you're right. I misspoke, I really don't see many Raptor games so I was just assuming." the internet will melt down.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



R-Star said:


> Uhhhh.....
> 
> The .02 more shot attempts Derozan takes? That "is the problem"? That .02 shots a game that gets him an extra 1 point a game, again, at a better shooting percentage.


Wet me expwain this to you, snookems. I know that basketball is a compwicated game. See, when that guy dwives to the basket and gets fouwed, he's used up a _possession_. We don't count those as field goal attempts, so they don't show up there, wittle man. But it's still a possession. So, when we want to calculate a scorer's efficiency, we compare the points he's scored to the actual possessions he used. Understand now, snookums?


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> Wet me expwain this to you, snookems. I know that basketball is a compwicated game. See, when that guy dwives to the basket and gets fouwed, he's used up a _possession_. We don't count those as field goal attempts, so they don't show up there, wittle man. But it's still a possession. So, when we want to calculate a scorer's efficiency, we compare the points he's scored to the actual possessions he used. Understand now, snookums?


So Paul George scores more points on less shot attempts than DeMar Derozan?


Also, I like how you recently got called out for this exact post, and how terribly sad it is, and you still use it...... That's priceless.



Also, are you going to physically write that DeMar Derozan is a chucker in another post? Or just tippy toe and throw insults?


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Look, on pure shots DeRozan produces .916 points/FGA as opposed to George's .98. If you want to add in DeRozan's FTAs then you also need to account for the possessions that he used getting them. And he _still_ doesn't reach league average. There are no ways of looking at the numbers that DeRozan reaches league average as either a shooter or scorer.


----------



## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

If you never re-address the "chucker" remark, this can go on forever.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Jace said:


> If you never re-address the "chucker" remark, this can go on forever.


Does DeRozan shoot well? Nope. Not by any standard. Does he score efficiently? Not at all. Does he force up a lot of shots and burn up a lot of possessions? Yes. How much ****ing clearer do I need to make it? That _is_ the definition I gave of chucker.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> Does DeRozan shoot well? Nope. Not by any standard. Does he score efficiently? Not at all. *Does he force up a lot of shots and burn up a lot of possessions?* Yes. How much ****ing clearer do I need to make it? That _is_ the definition I gave of chucker.


No?

Which is a weird accusation coming from the old man questioning how much others have seen him play.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> Does DeRozan shoot well? Nope. Not by any standard. Does he score efficiently? Not at all. Does he force up a lot of shots and burn up a lot of possessions? Yes. How much ****ing clearer do I need to make it? That _is_ the definition I gave of chucker.


Eh, can't really agree with that definition. Bargnani and Lowry have been in and out of the lineup with injuries and the next guy down from them in terms of scoring on that team is Alan Anderson, a thiry-year old who's never cracked an NBA rotation before. Give him Lowry and Bargnani healthy for a season; Gay starting at small forward instead of whoever happens to be healthy; and Derozan's usage goes down, his efficiency goes up, and suddenly he's magically no longer a chucker.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Bogg said:


> Eh, can't really agree with that definition. Bargnani and Lowry have been in and out of the lineup with injuries and the next guy down from them in terms of scoring on that team is Alan Anderson, a thiry-year old who's never cracked an NBA rotation before. Give him Lowry and Bargnani healthy for a season; Gay starting at small forward instead of whoever happens to be healthy; and Derozan's usage goes down, his efficiency goes up, and suddenly he's magically no longer a chucker.


At 15 a game he's not a chucker to begin with. He was shooting 50% last night until the wheels fell off the team midway through the 4th last night.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Bogg said:


> Eh, can't really agree with that definition. Bargnani and Lowry have been in and out of the lineup with injuries and the next guy down from them in terms of scoring on that team is Alan Anderson, a thiry-year old who's never cracked an NBA rotation before. Give him Lowry and Bargnani healthy for a season; Gay starting at small forward instead of whoever happens to be healthy; and Derozan's usage goes down, his efficiency goes up, and suddenly he's magically no longer a chucker.


DeRozan's burned up a quarter of his team's possessions since his second season and hasn't done it efficiently. Maybe there's an alternate universe where DeRozan is a sixth man coming off the bench or a fourth option/roleplayer. Unfortunately in this one he fires up a lot of shots and doesn't do it very efficiently. 

R-Star's Grand Canyon sized inferiority complex has kind of derailed the point of the original joke, that Gay is much worse without DeRozan's excuse, and the teaming of the two of them would lead to great hilarity.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



R-Star said:


> At 15 a game he's not a chucker to begin with. He was shooting 50% last night until the wheels fell off the team midway through the 4th last night.


Tony Delk once scored 50+ points in a game. He was almost as good as Jordan! And you're right, Durant and James are chuckers, look at all those FGAs!


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> Tony Delk once scored 50+ points in a game. He was almost as good as Jordan! And you're right, Durant and James are chuckers, look at all those FGAs!


The classic EH degrade into stories. That happened quick.


Delk is as good as Jordan? That's almost as ridiculous as when I called Lebron and Durant chuckers. Oh wait..... I never did that, did I? In fact last time you brought it up I stated the opposite. 


What I did do, was call you out for calling DeRozan a chucker when its clear you've hardly ever seen him play.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> DeRozan's burned up a quarter of his team's possessions since his second season and hasn't done it efficiently. Maybe there's an alternate universe where DeRozan is a sixth man coming off the bench or a fourth option/roleplayer. Unfortunately in this one he fires up a lot of shots and doesn't do it very efficiently.
> 
> R-Star's Grand Canyon sized inferiority complex has kind of derailed the point of the original joke, that Gay is much worse without DeRozan's excuse, and the teaming of the two of them would lead to great hilarity.


Forth option role player?


Wow.


It becomes apparent most of the time that you don't watch any basketball games outside of whatever Boston ones you watch. I mean you never post in game threads, and you say just the stupidest shit that isn't even close to reality. 

Keep it up though. Hopefully you'll get through to my inferiority complex and the fact I've never seen DeRozan play.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> DeRozan's burned up a quarter of his team's possessions since his second season and hasn't done it efficiently. Maybe there's an alternate universe where DeRozan is a sixth man coming off the bench or a fourth option/roleplayer. Unfortunately in this one he fires up a lot of shots and doesn't do it very efficiently.
> 
> R-Star's Grand Canyon sized inferiority complex has kind of derailed the point of the original joke, that Gay is much worse without DeRozan's excuse, and the teaming of the two of them would lead to great hilarity.


It doesn't need to be some fairytale scenario where Derozan comes off the bench for an all-star team for him to shoot less. Stick him in a lineup with Lowry, Gay, Bargs(or whoever they get for Bargs), and a more developed Valanciunas a year or two down the line and it's an ensemble cast without a single guy dominating the ball. 

_My_ point is that "anyone with below-average efficiency" is a pretty poor definition of the term "chucker", as it doesn't take into account what role the guy has been cast (or miscast, or forced) into. Even if you want to go back two seasons to when Derozan started taking on a large offensive load, the pattern from this year holds true. 

2010-2011 was Derozan's second season and doubled as the year after Bosh left. Bargnani, Barbosa, Klieza, and Calderon (the top-four non-Derozan scorers on that squad) were all dinged up and missed varying chunks of the season, leaving Derozan as the only competent offensive player who was regularly in the lineup (he was the only guy who played all 82 games that year).

2011-2012 was more of the same, with Bargnani and Jerryd Bayless missing about half the season each, Barbosa being shipped out at the trade deadline, and Calderon and Kleiza missing some time as well.

"Well, Derozan shoots more than average and his efficiency isn't good" isn't a very meaningful statement when he hasn't played with much in the way of offensive talent and he's the only guy who's been reliably healthy for three years now.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Bogg said:


> It doesn't need to be some fairytale scenario where Derozan comes off the bench for an all-star team for him to shoot less. Stick him in a lineup with Lowry, Gay, Bargs(or whoever they get for Bargs), and a more developed Valanciunas a year or two down the line and it's an ensemble cast without a single guy dominating the ball.
> 
> _My_ point is that "anyone with below-average efficiency" is a pretty poor definition of the term "chucker", as it doesn't take into account what role the guy has been cast (or miscast, or forced) into. Even if you want to go back two seasons to when Derozan started taking on a large offensive load, the pattern from this year holds true.
> 
> ...


Exactly. But EH knows this, he's seen a ton of Raptor games.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



R-Star said:


> Delk is as good as Jordan?


This was a commentary on your hilarious attempt to justify your loony claims that DeRozan is a good shooter on the grounds that he was shooting almost 50% from the floor for almost a whole game. Until, you know, he reverted to being DeMar DeRozan and began bricking all those 15'-20' jumpers.



R-Star said:


> That's almost as ridiculous as when I called Lebron and Durant chuckers.


I think it's increasingly clear that your definition of chucker is similar to the definition of porn, you can't define you just know it when you see it. Because you keep claiming that guys that put up _only_ 15 FGA/g can't be chuckers (even though they are on the top 25 list in the NBA in FGA), which implies that there's some magic number above 15 that they suddenly become "chuckers". You just can't tell us when that line's reached. For example, you did label James Harden a chucker, even though he scores efficiently, _and provides offensive skills besides scoring_. 

Me? I have a pretty objective definition and which you've yet to offer a convincing counter-argument for. And I suspect it's because your opinion is based on being the opposite of mine so that you can waive your pecker about to prove that you're still the King of the Interwebz. You needn't fear, little R-Star, I have no interest in your self-proclaimed title. You can have it.



R-Star said:


> It becomes apparent most of the time that you don't watch any basketball games outside of whatever Boston ones you watch. I mean you never post in game threads, and you say just the stupidest shit that isn't even close to reality.


I have this disadvantage when it comes to game threads, while I'm watching the games I'm usually too focused on what's happening on the screen in front of me to look away and start interacting with people in web fora. The guys that just watch the ESPN online sports ticker and then jump into game threads to find an opinion to agree with and say "Yeah man, nice play" have a much easier time of it, don't you?


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> This was a commentary on your hilarious attempt to justify your loony claims that DeRozan is a good shooter on the grounds that he was shooting almost 50% from the floor for almost a whole game. Until, you know, he reverted to being DeMar DeRozan and began bricking all those 15'-20' jumpers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A) Where did I call DeMar Derozan a good shooter? Feel free to quote where I wrote that. 

B) DeMar Derozan is the leading scorer on his team. Shooting 15 shots per game as your teams #1 option is pretty reserved, as most people who understand basketball find as common sense. 

C)You seem to post in playoffs threads, when I actually assume you watch basketball. The rest of the year you troll around talking about players, yet never reference actual games (since you haven't seen any)


Feel free to touch on those 3, or don't. I'm only posting because the internet makes me feel like a man. It has nothing to do with you yet again stating something completely wrong, then refusing to admit being wrong, and becoming further and further belligerent when pressed. 

We should make a thread chronicling threads where you say something stupid, then yell at everyone telling them they're wrong. How's your "I guarantee Kevin Martin will get injured 20 games into the season and anyone who disagrees is an idiot! I saw every Rockets game last year!" prediction going anyways?


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Bogg said:


> It doesn't need to be some fairytale scenario where Derozan comes off the bench for an all-star team for him to shoot less. Stick him in a lineup with Lowry, Gay, Bargs(or whoever they get for Bargs), and a more developed Valanciunas a year or two down the line and it's an ensemble cast without a single guy dominating the ball.
> 
> _My_ point is that "anyone with below-average efficiency" is a pretty poor definition of the term "chucker", as it doesn't take into account what role the guy has been cast (or miscast, or forced) into. Even if you want to go back two seasons to when Derozan started taking on a large offensive load, the pattern from this year holds true.


I'm not a sports psychologist, and with all due respect, neither are you. You can theorise that he'd suddenly change into a low usage rate player in some ideal scenario, all I can go on is what I see and what's reflected in the numbers. Honestly, as he doesn't bring much offensive value to the table aside from the volume scoring I just don't see how any of this would work. 

And I didn't say that "anyone with below average efficiency" because I did state that they had to be high usage rate players. That's kind of the crucial part. High usage rate players that neither shoot nor score efficiently are chuckers. Guys that ain't shooting the rock ain't chuckers. Tony Allen wasn't a chucker during his time in Boston despite his inability to shoot straight because he just didn't take a lot of shots (unless he and his buddies were out cruising).



Bogg said:


> "Well, Derozan shoots more than average and his efficiency isn't good" isn't a very meaningful statement when he hasn't played with much in the way of offensive talent and he's the only guy who's been reliably healthy for three years now.


DD doesn't "shoot more than average" he's 17th in the entire NBA in FGA. That's considerably more than average. (However I will grant the funniest part of your post is that you're agreeing with me that DeRozan is a shitty #1,#2 or even possibly #3 option while R-Star has, more predictably than a curried goat bowel movement, chimed in with a "Yeah! That EH is such an idiot, doesn't he know that I'm R-Star, King of the Interwebz!!!!!")


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> I'm not a sports psychologist, and with all due respect, neither are you. You can theorise that he'd suddenly change into a low usage rate player in some ideal scenario, all I can go on is what I see and what's reflected in the numbers. Honestly, as he doesn't bring much offensive value to the table aside from the volume scoring I just don't see how any of this would work.
> 
> And I didn't say that "anyone with below average efficiency" because I did state that they had to be high usage rate players. That's kind of the crucial part. High usage rate players that neither shoot nor score efficiently are chuckers. Guys that ain't shooting the rock ain't chuckers. Tony Allen wasn't a chucker during his time in Boston despite his inability to shoot straight because he just didn't take a lot of shots (unless he and his buddies were out cruising).
> 
> ...


Huh?

Yea.... the questions, facts and numbers I've posted seem to agree with that.

Your responses and flailing keep getting weaker and weaker. This is pretty sad.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



R-Star said:


> A) Where did I call DeMar Derozan a good shooter? Feel free to quote where I wrote that.


So you've finally given up on this lunacy and are admitting that his ability to bury the ball in the hole will likely prevent him from being either a scratch golfer or a father?



R-Star said:


> B) DeMar Derozan is the leading scorer on his team. Shooting 15 shots per game as your teams #1 option is pretty reserved, as most people who understand basketball find as common sense.


17th in the entire NBA in FGA. _Again_, are you saying that guys that shoot a lot, but some magic number above 15, are chuckers and that their utter inability to to either convert shots or score efficiently has nothing to do with the matter?



R-Star said:


> C)You seem to post in playoffs threads, when I actually assume you watch basketball. The rest of the year you troll around talking about players, yet never reference actual games (since you haven't seen any)


Not really, no. We're supposed to, as staff members. It's part of our job description. But I cheat by posting during half times or quarter breaks. In other words, not very often.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> So you've finally given up on this lunacy and are admitting that his ability to bury the ball in the hole will likely prevent him from being either a scratch golfer or a father?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Scratch golfer or........ No, what I'm saying, and what I've always said in this thread is DeRozan is not a chucker. I see in your books you're either a "good shooter" or "Chucker" which explains your laughable posts.

17th is all of the sudden a high volume chucker? 7 of the players above him on that list shoot at a lower FG%. You know that correct? I mean, I'm sure you do, with all the games you watch.


And no EH, I've posted with you in playoff threads. I won't push the fact that its obvious you don't watch regular season games, nor the fact that I guaran****ingtee not one person pushed you of all people to post in playoff threads, but facts are facts and its pretty damn clear.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> I'm not a sports psychologist, and with all due respect, neither are you. You can theorise that he'd suddenly change into a low usage rate player in some ideal scenario, all I can go on is what I see and what's reflected in the numbers. Honestly, as he doesn't bring much offensive value to the table aside from the volume scoring I just don't see how any of this would work.


Derozan's a perfectly fine slasher and can hit from mid-range(I know, I know, least efficient shot in basketball), so I don't see a reason he can't settle into being a nice two-way player that doesn't dominate on either end of the floor. If all we're arguing is what he'd do in a theoretical scenario then we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I don't see a reason to believe that because he plays one way on a very poor team he'll play that way on any team. Every year we see a guy (often a volume scorer, btw) accept a lesser role one some team and excel in it. 




E.H. Munro said:


> And I didn't say that "anyone with below average efficiency" because I did state that they had to be high usage rate players. That's kind of the crucial part. High usage rate players that neither shoot nor score efficiently are chuckers. Guys that ain't shooting the rock ain't chuckers. Tony Allen wasn't a chucker during his time in Boston despite his inability to shoot straight because he just didn't take a lot of shots (unless he and his buddies were out cruising).


Unfortunately for Derozen, he's easily the best offensive player on the floor for Toronto most nights. You're the first guy to defend Philadelphia-era Iverson whenever accusations of being a selfish ballhog come up by pointing out that the Sixers had no other viable offensive options. Same thing with Derozan, but on a smaller scale. 





E.H. Munro said:


> DD doesn't "shoot more than average" he's 17th in the entire NBA in FGA. That's considerably more than average. (However I will grant the funniest part of your post is that you're agreeing with me that DeRozan is a shitty #1,#2 or even possibly #3 option while R-Star has, more predictably than a curried goat bowel movement, chimed in with a "Yeah! That EH is such an idiot, doesn't he know that I'm R-Star, King of the Interwebz!!!!!")



Toronto's currently starting Ed Davis, Amir Johnson, and Landry Fields. They're relying on Alan Anderson (getting his first regular burn as a thiry-year-old) for offensive production from the bench. There just isn't much in the way of guys you actually _want_ shooting the ball on that team. So, Derozan becomes a volume shooter and his efficiency suffers. I'm very confident in your ability to tell me what has happened, but it's not hard to see _why_ it's happened, either.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



R-Star said:


> Scratch golfer or........ No, what I'm saying, and what I've always said in this thread is DeRozan is not a chucker. I see in your books you're either a "good shooter" or "Chucker" which explains your laughable posts.


What? Could you point out where I ever called, say, Ben Wallace a chucker? Low usage rate guys aren't chuckers regardless of how well they shoot or how efficiently they score. Because they aren't shooting. High usage rate guys that neither shoot nor score efficiently? Chuckers.



R-Star said:


> 17th is all of the sudden a high volume chucker?


17th out of some 430? Yeah, that's pretty high. He's in the top 5%.



R-Star said:


> 7 of the players above him on that list shoot at a lower FG%.


Including Rudy Gay, _hence my original joke_. Which, in turn, led you to stomp in in your ongoing quest to be the King of the Interwebz. Do you not understand that no one cares? It's your title. You can have it.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> What? Could you point out where I ever called, say, Ben Wallace a chucker? Low usage rate guys aren't chuckers regardless of how well they shoot or how efficiently they score. Because they aren't shooting. High usage rate guys that neither shoot nor score efficiently? Chuckers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So there's 7 players above him with worse shooting, and your answer is "Yea, Rudy Gay sucks!" Yea, we've never seen that from you before have we? Someone posts something and you waive it off in hopes of not having to answer to it.

Anyways, its pretty obvious no one but yourself considers Derozan a chucker. I guess we can chalk this up to yet again another opinion you have that no one else shares. 

Its also getting pretty sad that you keep trying to push a joke in about 5 consecutive posts, and to anyone reading it you're the one coming off as the spoiled little brat who's throwing a fit.

Keep up the good work.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Bogg said:


> Derozan's a perfectly fine slasher and can hit from mid-range(I know, I know, least efficient shot in basketball), so I don't see a reason he can't settle into being a nice two-way player that doesn't dominate on either end of the floor. If all we're arguing is what he'd do in a theoretical scenario then we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I don't see a reason to believe that because he plays one way on a very poor team he'll play that way on any team. Every year we see a guy (often a volume scorer, btw) accept a lesser role one some team and excel in it.


Actually, he can't shoot from mid-range. And that's the problem. Inside 15' he's meh. After that he's pretty bad. You could live with that game in a PF or C. Not in a SG.



Bogg said:


> Unfortunately for Derozen, he's easily the best offensive player on the floor for Toronto most nights. You're the first guy to defend Philadelphia-era Iverson whenever accusations of being a selfish ballhog come up by pointing out that the Sixers had no other viable offensive options. Same thing with Derozan, but on a smaller scale.


Well, I've made it clear for years that in my experience the operating definition of "ballhog" is "guy that I don't like that fires up a lot of shots". And I've also defended Mr. Bean when this comes up. But I've never said that Iverson wasn't prone to forcing up a lot of bad shots.

As for theories that DeRozan will change his game after better scoring options come along, I think we all agreed that the same thing was true of Rudy Gay three years ago. Only even after the Grizz found better scoring options Gay's still out there forcing up bad shots. And, _again_ this is what amused me, the thought of teaming up two guys like that. It's going to go south sooner or later. I mean, christ, it went south quickly for Denver and they had more talented chuckers.


----------



## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Boring argument. Bring back OZZY.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Fair enough. I've made my case, I think Derozan makes a nice supporting starter on a better team. You said your piece. Now, I'm just going to bow out and let you and R-Star do your thing.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Bogg said:


> Fair enough. I've made my case, I think Derozan makes a nice supporting starter on a better team. You said your piece. Now, I'm just going to bow out and let you and R-Star do your thing.


I've enjoyed you in the thread seeing as you obviously see more Raptor games than me. I guess you aren't needed though since EH has seen more Raptor games than anyone.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



R-Star said:


> So there's 7 players above him with worse shooting, and your answer is "Yea, Rudy Gay sucks!" Yea, we've never seen that from you before have we? Someone posts something and you waive it off in hopes of not having to answer to it.


I'm not sure what you're looking for here. Did you expect that I was going to claim that guys like Brandon Jennings and Monta Ellis _don't_ force up a ton of bad shots? And if you look back at the very first page of this thread, you will see that my opinion of Rudy Gay is pretty clear. And contrary to your drivel above, I was reiterating that from the beginning my joke was that no matter how inefficient DeRozan was, Gay was even worse. I didn't do the R-Star trick of moving the goalposts and praying that no one notices, or try to change the subject (another of your go to moves). Just reiterating what I said from the minute you decided that you had to prove that you're the King of the Interwebz.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> I'm not sure what you're looking for here. Did you expect that I was going to claim that guys like Brandon Jennings and Monta Ellis _don't_ force up a ton of bad shots? And if you look back at the very first page of this thread, you will see that my opinion of Rudy Gay is pretty clear. And contrary to your drivel above, I was reiterating that from the beginning my joke was that no matter how inefficient DeRozan was, Gay was even worse. I didn't do the R-Star trick of moving the goalposts and praying that no one notices, or try to change the subject (another of your go to moves). Just reiterating what I said from the minute you decided that you had to prove that you're the King of the Interwebz.


Actually, the discussion has been whether DeMar Derozan is a chucker or not. The entire time. The changing the subject and moving the goal posts? Once again all on you.

You've also spent time being so cement headed that you chased (yet again) another good poster out of the discussion in Bogg because while his replies with "Fair enough, we'll agree to disagree, but I've watched the team a lot and if you look at xxxxxx" have been responded by you with "Nope. You're wrong. You want to know why? Because I say so, and I'm not changing my opinion for anyone."


I have a whole day to waste, and this is probably one of the first times I've done this, but you really just aren't worth it EH. Here lies yet again another thread you absolutely ruined, arguing with multiple posters with not one person posting anything similar to an agreement on your side, and you still keep going. "Nope! Nope! Not wrong. I'm not wrong! You think you're king of the interwebz! Ha ha! Did anyone laugh at that? I bet they did, I'm the funniest guy on the site! I'll say it again _in another 8 consecutive posts_"




Enjoy your thread old man. How you are an admin at this point after almost systematically trying to make this forum a worse place ever day is beyond me. You're the shining example of why this place has gone down the drain over the years.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



R-Star said:


> Actually, the discussion has been whether DeMar Derozan is a chucker or not. The entire time.


No indeedy. Did you fail to notice the thread title? For most of the thread the discussion was about the Memphis chucker. DeRozan only came up because Toronto's name entered the discussion and I made a joke about teaming up Gay & DeRozan, in a response to _Bogg_. That's when you decided to enter the fray. So, no, the discussion wasn't always about DeRozan's forcing up shots, it was about Memphis looking to get rid of Gay.


----------



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

For the record, I wouldn't call Gay or DeRozan a chucker. That's a term I'd reserve for the likes of Monta Ellis, Jamal Crawford, Kobe, JR Smith, Nate Robinson, and many more, and maybe even the likes of John Salmons as well.


----------



## Maravilla (Jul 6, 2010)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Shannon. Brown.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Pacers Fan said:


> For the record, I wouldn't call Gay or DeRozan a chucker. That's a term I'd reserve for the likes of Monta Ellis, Jamal Crawford, Kobe, JR Smith, Nate Robinson, and many more, and maybe even the likes of John Salmons as well.


I have to ask, if Jamal Crawford is a chucker, despite efficient scoring, average shooting, and being 49th in the NBA in FGA, what chance do DeRozan and Gay have? (We won't even address the "chucker" that's 103rd in the NBA in FGA while still being an average shooter and scoring with average efficiency.)


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

I'd mention that Derozan is easily the #1 offensive weapon on his team, thus facing opposing teams best defenders, and Crawford plays on what is widely seen as the league deepest team and comes off the bench, and has been known his whole career to dribble up on the play and immediately jack up a 3 with a defenders hand right in his face and 3/4 of the clock left, and not to mention only 2 of his 12 year career has he shot better than Derozan is right now, this year not even being one of them, but...... well we know EH isn't changing his mind here. 


He's right, and you're wrong Pacer fan. And you're stupid for ever trying to argue with him.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Jamal Crawford is leading the Clippers in FGA?


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

And I would to thank R-Star for pointing out to me that I drag down threads by insulting people that disagree with me. In fact I reviewed this very thread and found dozens of examples, here are just a few. If only I could be more like R-Star...



R-Star said:


> you're the one coming off as the spoiled little brat who's throwing a fit.





R-Star said:


> Some times I just shake my head at the handful of posters around here like EH who thinks just because hes a blowhard it somehow speaks to his basketball knowledge. I've seen well over 10 Raptor games this year, but hey I'm sure he's seen more than that.





R-Star said:


> Its EH. He has no clue what he's talking about.





R-Star said:


> Also, I like how you recently got called out for this exact post, and how terribly sad it is, and you still use it...... That's priceless.





R-Star said:


> Your responses and flailing keep getting weaker and weaker. This is pretty sad.





R-Star said:


> I've enjoyed you in the thread seeing as you obviously see more Raptor games than me. I guess you aren't needed though since EH has seen more Raptor games than anyone.





R-Star said:


> Maybe he should write it in a failed math equation. That's what you like isn't it Adam? Failing to do even high school level math and then throwing a tantrum?





R-Star said:


> 15 shots a game and you call him a chucker. That's ****ing hilarious EH. Keep spouting like you're a basketball guru though, and keep waiting for no one but R-Star and pathetic "Me Too!" Adam respond to them.





R-Star said:


> You're just in general a sad person EH. I think the day you finally say something like "You know what, you're right. I misspoke, I really don't see many Raptor games so I was just assuming." the internet will melt down.





R-Star said:


> you say just the stupidest shit that isn't even close to reality.





R-Star said:


> You've also spent time being so cement headed
> 
> Enjoy your thread old man. How you are an admin at this point after almost systematically trying to make this forum a worse place ever day is beyond me. You're the shining example of why this place has gone down the drain over the years.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Ha! zing.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Hyperion said:


> Ha! zing.


He sure nailed me there.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> Jamal Crawford is leading the Clippers in FGA?


No. As I stated he plays on a stacked Clipper team, likely with multiple allstars, viewed as the deepest team in the league.


Are we switching your view now to where only guys who lead their team in attempts can be labeled as EH Munro chuckers?


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

No, I'm not the one changing things at all. That would be the thread's "innocent victim". In fact, I didn't even say that he wasn't a chucker. I simply asked how poor DeRozan or Gay could avoid the label when the 49th and 103rd leading FGA guys in the NBA _were_. Not that I expect an answer out of you because you'll never give one. You'll just predictably call me stupid, complain that I'm calling you names and change the subject.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> No, I'm not the one changing things at all. That would be the thread's "innocent victim". In fact, I didn't even say that he wasn't a chucker. I simply asked how poor DeRozan or Gay could avoid the label when the 49th and 103rd leading FGA guys in the NBA _were_. Not that I expect an answer out of you because you'll never give one. You'll just predictably call me stupid, complain that I'm calling you names and change the subject.


It seems a little odd to me that you are now saying a guy at 49th in shooting shouldn't be labeled a chucker if the 17th isn't, yet you made a big argument about how Lebron and Durant couldn't be labeled as chuckers.....


Lets come up with specific values for the EH system.


*THE EH MUNRO RULE OF CHUCKING
FGA per Game
1-9 Not chuckers. Superstars 
10 Rudy Gay, chucker
11-18 Depends
19 DeMar Derozan, chucker
20-44 Depends
45 Jamal Crawford. Only a chucker if poster is also willing to call Derozan and Gay chuckers, even though they both score at much better efficiency*




Oh, and to clarify for you before you try to twist my post with "R-Stawr thinks wittle Webron and Duwant are chuckers!" .... no. I'm pointing out how ridiculous it is that you bring up FGA as damning evidence for 2 players (Gay and Derozan), then go and use it as defense for the guys at the top of the league, and follow that up by saying it shouldn't count for guys lower in the league who don't lead their teams in shots.


I probably should have just stayed out the first time. You do understand that not one person in the whole thread has agreed with your logic, correct? And honestly, answer that question if you decide to post again.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



R-Star said:


> It seems a little odd to me that you are now saying a guy at 49th in shooting shouldn't be labeled a chucker if the 17th isn't, yet you made a big argument about how Lebron and Durant couldn't be labeled as chuckers.....


You may please stop making my arguments for me, because you're terrible at it. I can make my own arguments quite well, thank you very much. And since you failed to address them _again_ I take it you're conceding?

Here's the ultra-simple definition of chucker that I use. High usage rate players that neither shoot nor score efficiently. It's pretty simple, really. Now, are you going to give us a logical reason why those guys _aren't_ chuckers or are you headed back into the R-Star bag of tricks to call me stupid and complain about how badly we treat you? 

Because 100 odd posts later and you've yet to make evan a rudimentary argument as to why those sorts of players aren't. You keep saying guys that shoot a lot, but not Durant or LeBron. Why the special pleading for those guys? Well, aside from the fact that it would sound really stupid, I can't think of one. So, again, what we've been able to get from you is that a chucker is sort of like porn, you can't tell us what it is but you know it when you see it. Me? I prefer objective definitions.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



E.H. Munro said:


> You may please stop making my arguments for me, because you're terrible at it. I can make my own arguments quite well, thank you very much. And since you failed to address them _again_ I take it you're conceding?


I've answered multiple times. I'm surprised you didn't see it when you went back and selected parts of my posts to quote. I'll state them again for you if you're having trouble though.

*1) DeMar Derozan shoots at better percentages than Crawford.

2) He does so while facing teams top defenders, instead of coming off the bench for the deepest teams in the league.*

I've stated both multiple times. I never seem to get replies. 

Oh, and since I brought it up in my last post and you ignored it

*3) Not one person in this thread has shared your opinion correct? In fact multiple posters have come out posting replies saying how they disagree. Do you understand that?*


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Just......give it a rest. I'm tired of this thread hijacking the entire website.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Bogg said:


> Just......give it a rest. I'm tired of this thread hijacking the entire website.


Fair enough. You're right, its gone on far too long. 


I tend to get angry with the set of posters on here who refuse to ever retract a statement or admit to being wrong. But I've said my peace and having nothing more to add to the argument.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Cool. Now, getting back to the Rudy Gay trade rumors, word is the Wizards are in early talks with the Grizzlies, but it's unclear what's actually being offered(essentially, if Beal's on the table). If Memphis can get Beal I think it's worth taking back whatever contracts to make the deal work, but I _hate_ that trade for Washington. If it's lesser players and cap relief going Memphis' way the trade still only leaves me lukewarm for Washington. I actually feel like they're in worse shape than Charlotte is right now.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



R-Star said:


> I've answered multiple times. I'm surprised you didn't see it when you went back and selected parts of my posts to quote.


Let me try this again. Why are high usage rate players that neither shoot nor score efficiently not chuckers? There's your challenge. Please do not respond to this thread again until you have an answer.


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

When did Bradley Beal become good?


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



MemphisX said:


> When did Bradley Beal become good?


January 1, essentially.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

But Beal & DeRozan would be such a great scoring duo!

Anyway, hopefully Wall keeps getting healthier. I really like him and want to see him succeed (plus the longsuffering Wizards fans deserve it)


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Cool. So much for getting things back on track.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Bogg said:


> Cool. So much for getting things back on track.


Just ignore him. 


I thought Beal would slow down with Wall back, but it looks like the 2 games since coming back he's had some great games still. Didn't see either games, but if they can keep it up that's an exciting combo.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

The one good thing about the losing season is that they're going to get another crack in the high lottery, and this draft is heavy with big men. If they pick right and get an all-star underneath to pair with Wall and Beal, they might actually have a decent foundation.


----------



## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Bogg said:


> Cool. Now, getting back to the Rudy Gay trade rumors, word is the Wizards are in early talks with the Grizzlies, but it's unclear what's actually being offered(essentially, if Beal's on the table). If Memphis can get Beal I think it's worth taking back whatever contracts to make the deal work, but I _hate_ that trade for Washington. If it's lesser players and cap relief going Memphis' way the trade still only leaves me lukewarm for Washington. I actually feel like they're in worse shape than Charlotte is right now.


A couple quick updates. Beal is not the trade talks, as per his agent.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/225590/Agent_Beal_Isnt_Involved_In_Wizards_Trade_Discussions_For_Gay

And Gay is likely to stay in Memphis. My guess would be because of the high asking price.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/225574/Source_Gay_Likely_To_Stay_With_Grizzlies_This_Season


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



AllRim said:


> A couple quick updates. Beal is not the trade talks, as per his agent.
> 
> http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/225590/Agent_Beal_Isnt_Involved_In_Wizards_Trade_Discussions_For_Gay
> 
> ...



Makes sense. It'd be tough for Memphis to find a trade that slashes their payroll _and_ makes them better right now, unless you think that "dividing" into multiple guys for depth helps more than it hurts. I really don't know that Memphis has enough offense without him, though. Even if you think that Randolph is a potential #1, I doubt that Gasol or Mike Conley can be a competent 2-3 scoring duo.


----------



## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



Bogg said:


> Cool. Now, getting back to the Rudy Gay trade rumors, word is the Wizards are in early talks with the Grizzlies, but it's unclear what's actually being offered(essentially, if Beal's on the table). If Memphis can get Beal I think it's worth taking back whatever contracts to make the deal work, but I _hate_ that trade for Washington. If it's lesser players and cap relief going Memphis' way the trade still only leaves me lukewarm for Washington. I actually feel like they're in worse shape than Charlotte is right now.


Not a wise trade for Memphis, horrible trade for Washington. Do they think they're in win-now mode? Gay sure wants to be. He'll go all-Rashard Lewis/Nene over there.

I'm not sure I'll take the agent's word 100%, but regardless I think this deal is rubbish. Makes no sense.


----------



## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

If anything, Washington needs to find a way to dump contracts like Nene, Ariza, Okafor and focus on actually building a team via the draft. 2014 is the year to land a top 5 pick, not this one.


----------



## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Yup. They should try to bottom out at least two more drafts and go for Wiggins. He's probably the next LeBron/Durant-stratosphere-ish-type. They need to dump and avoid all vets. Embrace the suck. Crazy thing is they may play better without disinterested vets.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Well, they're going to get a high draft pick this year anyway, but I want to see if John Wall is healthy and if Beal is really having a break out month or is just on a bit of a hot streak before pouring dirt on any foundation they might have.


----------



## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

The Toronto Raptors are active in trade talks with the Memphis Grizzlies for Rudy Gay, according to sources.

The Raptors are believed to be the team most serious for Gay.

The framework of a workable trade has not been established.

Sources say the Raptors have made Jose Calderon and Ed Davis as the core of a trade offer for Gay.

Sources also believe that a trade involving the Raptors and Grizzlies could expand to other teams.

The Grizzlies are motivated to trade Gay due financial concerns even though they made a cap-friendly trade last week with the CAvaliers.

Via Marc Stein/ESPN


----------



## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Really again?


----------



## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

How is Calderon's expiring a centerpiece for Rudy Gay? He isn't valued any more than that?


----------



## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Gay? No.


----------



## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



kbdullah said:


> How is Calderon's expiring a centerpiece for Rudy Gay? He isn't valued any more than that?


Ed Davis is the obvious centerpiece of this deal. Seems to be leading towards getting Davis and moving ZBO this summer.


----------



## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

I would be very sad to lose Ed for Rudy Gay. Stupid move by the Raptors if they do this.


----------



## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Seems like a dumb move for both teams honestly


----------



## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

It would be a huge win for Memphis. Dump that awful contract for an expiring 10 mil and Ed Davis who, when playing starters minutes is an easy double double guy every night. And he is still soooo young. This is the worst thing the Raptors could do at this point. 

Stop sending out picks and great prospects for mid level talent. BOOOOOOOOOURNS


----------



## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

I wasn't aware that Ed Davis was an impact player yet, but then again I don't follow Toronto too closely.


----------



## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Wouldn't call him an impact player yet. But since the injuries and we are free from Bargnani, Davis has received a decent amount of minutes per game. And he has shown the team that he deserves to start over Bargnani and coach Casey has even said Davis will start when Bargnani gets back.

It's just giving up to much for Gay


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Ed Davis' main selling point to some is that he's the latest guy that's "Not Bargnani". Decent young big, might make a good roleplayer/starter down the line.


----------



## The Big Dipper (Oct 23, 2012)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



AllRim said:


> It would be a huge win for Memphis. Dump that awful contract for an expiring 10 mil and Ed Davis who, when playing starters minutes is an easy double double guy every night. And he is still soooo young. This is the worst thing the Raptors could do at this point.
> 
> Stop sending out picks and great prospects for mid level talent. BOOOOOOOOOURNS


I was saying boo urns.


----------



## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



> @*WojYahooNBA*  Y! Sources: Final hurdle for a Rudy Gay-to-Toronto deal hinges on third team involvement. http://tinyurl.com/ap4yde8


If this falls through, that team is going to implode. They've already traded Rudy psychologically now, gotta trade him for real one way or another.


----------



## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Boston willing to take on Calderon to try and save their season?


----------



## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

That's the speculation I've been hearing.


----------



## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

The Memphis Grizzlies and Toronto Raptors are moving closer to finalizing a Rudy Gay trade, but are still searching for a third team to take Jose Calderon.

The Grizzlies would receive a young member of the Raptors and a future pick, according to sources.

"With so many quality point guards, they're struggling to find a spot for Calderon," one league general manager said.

Memphis has sought to acquire Terrence Ross, but the Raptors have ruled him untouchable.

Via Adrian Wojnarowski/Yahoo! Sports


----------



## tha supes (Aug 12, 2003)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Terrence Ross is "untouchable" to TOR? :laugh:


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



roux2dope said:


> Boston willing to take on Calderon to try and save their season?


The problem there is that someone then needs to take on Jeff Green or Brandon Bass, who are both under-performing on bigish contracts. Honestly, I'm a bit surprised they're having trouble finding a taker for a competent player on an expiring deal.


----------



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

I think MIA would take Bass in a heartbeat.

Future 1st for him and a TE?


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Cap-wise, the easiest solution is to bring in Houston, but you have to either find the right incentive to take on the rest of Calderons' contract or a fourth team to provide someone they like and route Calderon there. I'm surprised Memphis won't just take him, considering he drops off the payroll this summer, they're already under the tax, and they need three-point shooting.


----------



## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

Are they expecting the third team to take the contract and pay the "future draft pick" pricetag? Otherwise, I don't know why a team w/ the space for him wouldn't take him, he's a quality player on an expiring deal.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



kbdullah said:


> Are they expecting the third team to take the contract and pay the "future draft pick" pricetag? Otherwise, I don't know why a team w/ the space for him wouldn't take him, he's a quality player on an expiring deal.


The two teams with cap space(Houston and Phoenix) also combined to spend roughly $55 million on new starting point guards last summer, so they may be hesitant to take on an eight-figure cap number for a backup that may rattle the confidence of their young guy.


----------



## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*

The Toronto Raptors continue to pursue a trade with the Memphis Grizzlies for Rudy Gay.

The Raptors held the first overall pick in the 2006 NBA Draft and selected Andrea Bargnani, passing over Rudy Gay, amongst others.

"Bryan Colangelo has loved Gay since his college days," writes Chad Ford. "He was seriously torn between Gay and Bargnani on draft night. I think he feels like if he unites them, the Raptors instantly get better."

Via Chad Ford/ESPN


----------



## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*



> Adrian Wojnarowski ‏
> 
> Memphis and Toronto pushing closer on deal to send Rudy Gay to the Raptors, sources tell Y! Sports. Raps would part with Calderon and Davis.



@WojYahooNBA


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*

So......barring a second trade that lands them a scorer, does anyone else think that Memphis is going to have major problems scoring the ball?


----------



## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: UPDATE: Toronto and Phoenix Interested In Rudy Gay*



tha supes said:


> Terrence Ross is "untouchable" to TOR? :laugh:


BC is a joke, I'd rather send Ross than Davis (wouldn't really want to send either TBH)

All Ross has shown us, is that he can have some great shooting games. And some games with amazing dunks. He has already earned the knickname of "coin toss Ross" for his inconsistant play


----------



## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*

Calderon to Boston would actually be kinda brilliant, if only for the history with KG alone :laugh:

Would be a good Rondo replacement though for that team.


----------



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*

Calderon + Davis for Gay at least somewhat negates ditching Speights and Ellington for nothing. Calderon will back up Conley and maybe Bayless will move to the 2 to back up Allen. They can play Davis and Arthur off the bench so Haddadi and Leuer don't have to play. The problem is that their guards are tiny, their backup bigs are small, and they'd be starting Quincy Pondexter with his only backup being Chris Johnson.

I feel like if this is what they're going to get, they may as well keep Gay and make a push this year before they ditch him in the summer. Pondexter's not too bad, but as Bogg mentioned, that team will have trouble scoring the ball. They really should be making a big push for Ross or DeRozan, but instead they might wind up taking one of Kleiza, Pietrus, Fields, or Anderson back to at least have some depth/size on the wing.


----------



## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*

Twitter keeps saying Calderon ends up in Detroit, and Tayshaun Prince is involved.


----------



## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

*Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8898673/sources-memphis-grizzlies-agree-principle-trade-rudy-gay-toronto-raptors



> The Memphis Grizzlies and Toronto Raptors have agreed in principle on a trade that will send leading scorer Rudy Gay to the Raptors, according to sources with knowledge of the deal.


Well I'm sad to lose Ed and Caldy, I'm starting to get excited to see if Gay can thrive in Toronto.


----------



## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*

Really did not want to see Rudy Gay get out of Memphis just to get buried on a team like the Raptors.


----------



## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*

Not the case, if Gay can thrive in Toronto we all saw the coverage VC received. Toronto has tons of Media and endorsement apportunities. So if Gay plays well, he will receive as much coverage as he could want.


----------



## omer51 (Jan 31, 2011)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*

how awful for the Grizz :fail:
Did Allrim take over on them?


----------



## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*



AllRim said:


> Not the case, if Gay can thrive in Toronto we all saw the coverage VC received. Toronto has tons of Media and endorsement apportunities. So if Gay plays well, he will receive as much coverage as he could want.


I'll believe that when I see it.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*



BlakeJesus said:


> I'll believe that when I see it.


The whole "big market" thing is wildly overrated, at least in terms of exposure and profile, is wildly overrated. Lebron became the biggest player in basketball in Cleveland, of all places, and is doing just fine in Miami, which is only a medium-sized media market. Durant's had no problem signing endorsement deals in Oklahoma, and nobody's signing Brook Lopez even though he's in Brooklyn now. If you're winning and, most importantly, producing highlights you'll be big no matter where you play.


----------



## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*

Ed Davis in, ZBO out this summer


----------



## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*



omer51 said:


> how awful for the Grizz :fail:
> Did Allrim take over on them?


lol This isn't the KVBL.

But it's not that awful at all for the Grizz. They get the 10 mil expiring in Clady (which I think they are flipping to Detroit, so who knows what they get from the Pistons) And they get Ed Davis, who is very underrated on these boards. That kid is going to be at least a very solid starter, if not better. This is the first season he has received any starting minutes and he has shown how good and consistant he is. I hate losing him.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*



kbdullah said:


> Twitter keeps saying Calderon ends up in Detroit, and Tayshaun Prince is involved.


I said earlier in this thread that Detroit made a ton of sense as a trade partner. If they can use this trade to get Prince's salary off the books, and maybe even Villanueva or Stuckey as well, while picking up a decent point guard it'll be a big win.


----------



## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*

Tayshaun Prince could be the replacement here.


----------



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*



kbdullah said:


> Twitter keeps saying Calderon ends up in Detroit, and Tayshaun Prince is involved.


What does Detroit want with Calderon? Just an expiring to get rid of Prince's contract? I'm getting the vibe that they've been pursuing him for a while, so maybe they want a real PG on the roster? Kind of sucks for Bynum/Knight, but maybe they'll learn.


----------



## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*

I don't understand Toronto: why do you give up Ed Davis to pick up another big contract in Gay? Davis has been playing real well and you could have build around him once you get out of the Bargnani/Calderon era


----------



## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*

Dunno, but Woj and RealGM are reporting it now.

And I don't know if Ed Davis is good enough to build around. They probably wanted an all-star to replace what they had when they had Bosh.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*



RollWithEm said:


> Tayshaun Prince could be the replacement here.


Makes too much sense. He fits in well with Memphis and his cap figure is about one year too long for Detroit. May as well move him to a playoff squad for being a good soldier all these years and get cap relief if you can.


----------



## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*

I just can't see how this makes sense for anyone.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*



Pacers Fan said:


> What does Detroit want with Calderon? Just an expiring to get rid of Prince's contract? I'm getting the vibe that they've been pursuing him for a while, so maybe they want a real PG on the roster? Kind of sucks for Bynum/Knight, but maybe they'll learn.


Knight's emerging as a combo guard, not a real point guard. Calderon running the point allows Knight to focus on scoring the ball. As an added bonus, they're both good three-point shooters, which will create more space for Drummond and Monroe to work. I imagine Stuckey's available for and expiring contract at this point.


----------



## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*



Pacers Fan said:


> What does Detroit want with Calderon? Just an expiring to get rid of Prince's contract? I'm getting the vibe that they've been pursuing him for a while, so maybe they want a real PG on the roster? Kind of sucks for Bynum/Knight, but maybe they'll learn.


Calderon's assist rate is through the roof and I think still top 5 in the league. Gives them a PG that can actually setup Monroe and Drummond.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*



Diable said:


> I just can't see how this makes sense for anyone.


Prince is still decent, Memphis is betting that Randolph and Gasol can make up the five points a night you're giving up going from Rudy to Tayshaun, and Ed Davis gives them the big man depth back that they lost when the traded Speights.

Not saying it's going to work, but the logic is there, at least.


----------



## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*

Reports are Daye and Prince for Calderon


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*

Can't wait to see the Toronto boards after they figure out what they actually got for Christmas. Rudy Gay is not that dude. Ed Davis alone is a nice haul to get of that contract.


----------



## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*

Hollinger for the win...

Never thought I would say that


----------



## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*

Memphis puts the offense back in Conley's hands and out of Gay's. They add Davis, who has been very good, and allows them to move ZBo this summer. They clear cap space and have ducked further under the luxury tax, which makes it easy to re-sign Allen this summer. They add Prince in to an already good defense, where he is a good fit on both sides of the ball, imo. Daye comes on board for next to nothing and has started to develop in the past year.

Detroit finally gets their PG in Calderon, who has one of the best assist rates in the entire league and can slide Knight to SG, where they think he belongs.

No idea what Toronto is doing. Giving up on Davis, who has played very well next to Amir Johnson, in order to build with Gay, Derozan, Bargs and Ross?


----------



## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*



MemphisX said:


> Can't wait to see the Toronto boards after they figure out what they actually got for Christmas. Rudy Gay is not that dude. Ed Davis alone is a nice haul to get of that contract.


We all know that Gay isn't the guy. And the vast majority of us are not happy with this trade (including myself).

But with that said, I am cautiously optomistic that Gay can improve his game in Toronto.


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*



AllRim said:


> We all know that Gay isn't the guy. And the vast majority of us are not happy with this trade (including myself).
> 
> But with that said, I am cautiously optomistic that Gay can improve his game in Toronto.


He is getting worse and now you have 2 of the formerly dreaded Memphis 3 Amigos(Hakim Warrick was the 3rd) who absolutely poisoned an entire locker room. Good luck with that...


----------



## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*



TucsonClip said:


> Memphis puts the offense back in Conley's hands and out of Gay's. They add Davis, who has been very good, and allows them to move ZBo this summer. They clear cap space and have ducked further under the luxury tax, which makes it easy to re-sign Allen this summer. They add Prince in to an already good defense, where he is a good fit on both sides of the ball, imo. Daye comes on board for next to nothing and has started to develop in the past year.
> 
> Detroit finally gets their PG in Calderon, who has one of the best assist rates in the entire league and can slide Knight to SG, where they think he belongs.
> 
> No idea what Toronto is doing. Giving up on Davis, who has played very well next to Amir Johnson, in order to build with Gay, Derozan, Bargs and Ross?


I seriously hope they aren't finished making moves. Some rumors out there are that DD and Bargs could be the next to go. But that's just some Toronto beat writers probably trying to get some more online hits......

I seriously think BC thinks this move can save his job. I really hope he is fired regardless of how Gay works out in Toronto. Trading away Davis at this point is not smart at all. Trading Davis instead of Bargs is the worst move for the Raptors future. 

I see the Raptors as a treadmill team for many years to come. I seriously hope I am wrong.


----------



## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*



MemphisX said:


> He is getting worse and now you have 2 of the formerly dreaded Memphis 3 Amigos(Hakim Warrick was the 3rd) who absolutely poisoned an entire locker room. Good luck with that...


You have to understand, as someone who is a Raptors die hard since day one, that since this deal is finalized that I have to find someway to be optomistic about the future, no matter how bleak it seems.

I just hope that this is one of those situations where the player actually benefits from a change in scenery.


----------



## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*

It's quite obvious that Bryan Colangelo made the move to save his own ass.


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*

I hope so too because Rudy Gay is a great community guy. Would be wonderful at about $10 million per also.


----------



## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*

Memphis didn't get a whole lot worse from this trade I gotta say. If they ship ZBO out though, then yeah, rebuild city.


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*

Ed Davis also allows us to play ZBo and Gasol fewer minutes down the stretch.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*



Diable said:


> I just can't see how this makes sense for anyone.


Memphis gets a solid F for their 4/5 rotation allowing them to keep their two important players rested for the playoffs and replace Antoine Walker's bastard son with a roleplayer that can shoot and play defense. I can't see how this doesn't make sense Memphis. Toronto? I'm not sure how Gay/DeRozan/Lowry are going to deal with the fact that there's only one basketball.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*

Oh boy! Two "chuckers" on the same team!



MemphisX said:


> Ed Davis also allows us to play ZBo and Gasol fewer minutes down the stretch.


Mr. Silver lining in regards to any Memphis transaction.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*

Sorry, losing Gay is addition by subtraction.


----------



## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*



Bogg said:


> The whole "big market" thing is wildly overrated, at least in terms of exposure and profile, is wildly overrated. Lebron became the biggest player in basketball in Cleveland, of all places, and is doing just fine in Miami, which is only a medium-sized media market. Durant's had no problem signing endorsement deals in Oklahoma, and nobody's signing Brook Lopez even though he's in Brooklyn now. If you're winning and, most importantly, producing highlights you'll be big no matter where you play.


I wasn't referencing media exposure or endorsement opportunities, I was talking schematically. I wanted to see him play in a bit more open, up tempo offense. They have young guys at his position that they will want to play too.

It's the same feeling I had with OJ Mayo, you just wanted to see what he could do in an offense that plays more into his strengths. I don't know if Toronto is that offense, but I'm certainly not well versed on Raptors basketball.


----------



## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*

DD has been averaging 6 assists in the last 5 games I think....And some games Lowry only attempts 5 or fewer shots.


----------



## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*



AllRim said:


> DD has been averaging 6 assists in the last 5 games I think....And some games Lowry only attempts 5 or fewer shots.


They'd better get accustomed to not shooting the ball. The sooner the better.


----------



## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*



Gonzo said:


>


Can't believe I forgot about this video. Haha


----------



## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I think this makes Memphis immediately worse. We'll see how it plays out.


----------



## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

What a slap in the face to Memphis fans. They were a legit contender out west smh


Sent from my iPhone using VS Free


----------



## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

What a slap in the face to Memphis fans. They were a legit contender out West


Sent from my iPhone using VS Free


----------



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Why would Memphis want to ship out ZBo? He has been great for them!?


----------



## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

I think people are underrating Davis and overrating Gay here


----------



## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*



Gonzo said:


>


Canadians are fun to listen to. :laugh:


----------



## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

Dee-Zy said:


> Why would Memphis want to ship out ZBo? He has been great for them!?


Moving ZBO would give Memphis all kinds of flexibility moving forward with a core of Ed Davis, Gasol, Conley and a re-signed Allen + what they get for ZBO.



AllRim said:


> I think people are underrating Davis and overrating Gay here


I agree. Davis was breaking out thanks to his bump in playing time. I think the Grizz front office sees him as a viable replacement after this season, and allowing them cap space to improve the roster.


----------



## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*



Prince said:


> Canadians are fun to listen to. :laugh:


:cheers: yes we are


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*



BlakeJesus said:


> I wasn't referencing media exposure or endorsement opportunities, I was talking schematically. I wanted to see him play in a bit more open, up tempo offense. They have young guys at his position that they will want to play too.


Lowry-Derozan-Gay-Bargnani(if he's not traded, which seems unlikely) are going to run a way more up-tempo offense in Toronto than you'd ever see with that group in Memphis. If you wanted to a see a team get up and down the floor quick and open things up for Rudy to get to the hoop, I'm not sure why you'd want him with the Grizz.


----------



## AllRim (Jun 19, 2012)

If Bargnani starts when he gets back, I WILL hunt down Casey and BC and give them a labotomy, because thats just crazy.....


----------



## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Huh? I said I wanted to see him out of Memphis, but I didn't think Toronto was the ideal landing spot.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> They'd better get accustomed to not shooting the ball. The sooner the better.


Yeah and mcroberts is better than mayo too right?


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Mrs. Thang (Apr 14, 2011)

I can't believe Tayshaun Prince is almost 33 years old. He was still young the last time we saw him playing competitive basketball. He's lost half his career to playing the dutch boy with the finger in the dike.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> Yeah and mcroberts is better than mayo too right?


Is he? Is he even in the NBA this year? As I'm one of OJ's few defenders here I'm not even sure what this means or is supposed to.


----------



## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

McRoberts is on the Magic.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> Is he? Is he even in the NBA this year? As I'm one of OJ's few defenders here I'm not even sure what this means or is supposed to.


Menphisx thinks mcroberts was... Granted that's when the grizzlies were rumored to trade mayo to the pacers last year. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Gonzo said:


> McRoberts is on the Magic.


That's why I missed him, I actually haven't caught any of their games this year. But why should I be any different from their fans? 



Jamel Irief said:


> Menphisx thinks mcroberts was... Granted that's when the grizzlies were rumored to trade mayo to the pacers last year.


Ah. I was actually disappointed that Boston wasn't able to complete the trade for him last year. If they'd had his Bird Rights they might have used their MLE on a forward and I'd feel better about this team.


----------



## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*



Pacers Fan said:


> What does Detroit want with Calderon? Just an expiring to get rid of Prince's contract? I'm getting the vibe that they've been pursuing him for a while, so maybe they want a real PG on the roster? Kind of sucks for Bynum/Knight, but maybe they'll learn.


I think that Detroit still sees Knight as their PG of the future - but he's clearly not there yet. With regards to his development - I don't like this deal. He needs time developing as a point guard, learning to distribute the ball. He isn't big enough to be a combo guard. He IS however strong for his size, and getting stronger - and a not only good but improving AND interested (enthusiastic even) defensive player. So who knows, maybe he'll bulk up a bit more and do well in the role. 

On the other hand - I will say that I *DO* enjoy the idea of Calderon on the Pistons. It isn't that I think he's a perfect fit or totally ideal - but I enjoy watching him play. I'll enjoy rooting for Jose Calderon in Detroit.


----------



## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

The Pistons obviously didn't do this for Calderon. They did it to dump salary. That's it.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: UPDATE: Gay to Raptors pushing closer*



ChrisWoj said:


> I think that Detroit still sees Knight as their PG of the future - but he's clearly not there yet. With regards to his development - I don't like this deal. He needs time developing as a point guard, learning to distribute the ball. He isn't big enough to be a combo guard. He IS however strong for his size, and getting stronger - and a not only good but improving AND interested (enthusiastic even) defensive player. So who knows, maybe he'll bulk up a bit more and do well in the role.
> 
> On the other hand - I will say that I *DO* enjoy the idea of Calderon on the Pistons. It isn't that I think he's a perfect fit or totally ideal - but I enjoy watching him play. I'll enjoy rooting for Jose Calderon in Detroit.


I actually like the deal for Detroit, having Calderon around will do wonders for Knight's game


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*



Gonzo said:


>


This video is the first thing I think of when I hear the name Rudy Gay. To me, his name is "****ing Rudy Gay, man", not "Rudy Gay".


----------



## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

RollWithEm said:


> The Pistons obviously didn't do this for Calderon. They did it to dump salary. That's it.


Oh no, don't get me wrong. I agree with you. But I think the fact that they were able to get someone that I know Joe Dumars has said in the past that he likes - and someone that fans in Detroit will definitely enjoy for his limited time in town - is a bonus. Calderon isn't going to be some major difference maker for this team long term, and probably won't lead them to the playoffs this year (barring something crazy) - but he's still going to be a lot of fun for fans to watch. And as has been said, he may rub off nicely on young Mr Knight.

We lost our Prince but we still have a Knight. Haha.


----------



## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: Gay to Raptors Agreed to in Principal*



hobojoe said:


> This video is the first thing I think of when I hear the name Rudy Gay. To me, his name is "****ing Rudy Gay, man", not "Rudy Gay".


I'm the same way, makes me think about it every time too. Maybe moreso now that he's on the other team.


----------



## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

Calderon + Monroe and Drummond = awesome


----------



## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

This deal seems like a lose-lose for Toronto and Memphis.

Say what you want about Rudy Gay, but wing scoring is important and now they don't have that player who can create his own shot. Tayshaun Prince is not an adequate replacement.

As for Toronto...I don't get why you would trade a young big with potential on a rookie deal for a not quite star wing player on a maximum deal. They'll be better in the short term, but that contract will limit their flexibility.


----------



## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

^^^Agreed. This was just a bad trade all the way around. AT LEAST two of the teams shouldn't have accepted this, if not all three


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Colangelo was bound to make a "gotta save my job" move eventually, and he's going to find a Bargnani trade in the coming month as well. On the plus side, he only gave up an expiring and a journeyman to take a shot on an under-performing pseudo-star. However, it's looking like this team is going to wind up on the treadmill of trying to snag a bottom-four playoff seed and first-round exits even if things break their way.


----------



## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

Given that Toronto had already traded its pick in the Lowry deal, aren't they required to try to win sooner than later?


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

If nothing else, the performance of the Grizz will be an interesting referendum on Hollinger and some of his analysis. Memphis should have, at minimum, wound up in the 4/5 matchup in the playoffs and made the second round(or come extremely close). Anything less is going to be a failure this season.


----------



## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

If Memphis' track is Golden State and then LA Clippers or even San Antonio, I can still see this team making the conference finals.


----------



## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

''Shocked obviously,'' Prince said after the game. ''I didn't find out, obviously, until I got here. I'm shocked, but it's a business and you never know what's going to happen.''

How the hell do you embed on this board dang


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

GrandKenyon6 said:


> This deal seems like a lose-lose for Toronto and Memphis.
> 
> Say what you want about Rudy Gay, but wing scoring is important and now they don't have that player who can create his own shot. Tayshaun Prince is not an adequate replacement.
> 
> As for Toronto...I don't get why you would trade a young big with potential on a rookie deal for a not quite star wing player on a maximum deal. They'll be better in the short term, but that contract will limit their flexibility.


I still don't get it with the Rudy Gay fantasy. There are plenty of players in the NBA who can do what Gay does. If you want to give a guy 16 shots a night and let him shoot 40%/31% with little play making and few FT attempts, the line to fill that vacancy would be long.

The deal is Gay was our 3rd maybe even 4th best player but was taking the most shots and shooting horribly. His salary in millions was higher then his PER. He is not a stellar defender nor does he play particularly hard all the time.

The Grizzlies got a 23 year old big that should be able to step in when ZBo slows down for him. They can also now use their MLE in the summer and resign Tony Allen, none of which would be possible with Gay on the team.


----------



## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> I still don't get it with the Rudy Gay fantasy. There are plenty of players in the NBA who can do what Gay does. If you want to give a guy 16 shots a night and let him shoot 40%/31% with little play making and few FT attempts, the line to fill that vacancy would be long.
> 
> The deal is Gay was our 3rd maybe even 4th best player but was taking the most shots and shooting horribly. His salary in millions was higher then his PER. He is not a stellar defender nor does he play particularly hard all the time.
> 
> The Grizzlies got a 23 year old big that should be able to step in when ZBo slows down for him. They can also now use their MLE in the summer and resign Tony Allen, none of which would be possible with Gay on the team.


And they are not necessarily in a worse situation moving forward this season.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

MemphisX said:


> The Grizzlies got a 23 year old big that should be able to step in when ZBo slows down for him.


I think that's overrating Davis quite a bit. He's a good third big. He might make a solid starter down the road. He's not "best player on a darkhorse contender" good.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Why would the Grizzlies need him to be? Gay topped out as "Fourth best offensive player on a darkhorse contender". So really the Grizz don't need much more than that from him.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)




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## Mrs. Thang (Apr 14, 2011)

MemphisX said:


> I still don't get it with the Rudy Gay fantasy. There are plenty of players in the NBA who can do what Gay does if you want to give a guy 16 shots a night and let him shoot 40%/31% with little play making and few FT attempts.


Tayshaun Prince is one of them.

I love the trade for Memphis. They cut salary and might have even improved. They at least got deeper. In addition to Ed Davis, Prince is a very good fit on a mature, defensive minded team. Even Austin Daye could be a rotation player as the backup SF, he'll never be as good as his skill set suggests he should be, but he is valuable as a floor spacer.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

E.H. Munro said:


> Why would the Grizzlies need him to be? Gay topped out as "Fourth best offensive player on a darkhorse contender". So really the Grizz don't need much more than that from him.


The post I quoted said that Davis should be able to step in for Randolph when he slows down/is traded. If they're saying that Davis can be a stopgap starter, then sure. Seemed to be saying that Davis is a Randolph replacement, which he isn't.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

Marcus13 said:


> ^^^Agreed. This was just a bad trade all the way around. AT LEAST two of the teams shouldn't have accepted this, if not all three


"all the way around."

"if not all three"

Seriously? In what world do the Pistons turn this trade down? There isn't a single bad thing that you can say about this trade for Detroit. Even if Calderon were completely incapable of taking the floor - this would be a winning deal for Detroit.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

RollWithEm said:


>


lol


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

The gifs get better with more context.


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## JonMatrix (Apr 8, 2003)

Is Prince still any good? I honestly haven't watched a Pistons game in years. I mean I saw his numbers for the season, but are they just the byproduct of being on a bad team?

Gay looks like a dropped off a bit this year, but the Grizz could have easily waited until the offseason to find a trade for him. 

They have Arthur to replace Speights as the main backup for ZBo and Gasol. Of course given Arthur's injury history I understand why they were looking for another backup.

ZBo's game doesn't rely on athleticism, so him slowing down doesn't matter as much as it does with a lot of other big men.

The Ed Davis love on this board is intense. He put up some ok numbers on a bad team. Is there something I'm missing? Seems like another inconsistent young big man.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Gonzo said:


> The gifs get better with more context.


Much respect to that fan, i would've ripped the jersey off myself..well if i wasn't an adult..i wouldnt wear a basketball jersey in public


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Gonzo said:


> The gifs get better with more context.


LOL, better with his T-shirt too. That guy might of went to UK 10 years ago and this was the first time he would of saw Prince play in person.

Maybe he should sue the Pistons like the Spurs fan did in regards to the game at Miami?

At least Brandon Knight was still on the Pistons.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

ChrisWoj said:


> "all the way around."
> 
> "if not all three"
> 
> Seriously? In what world do the Pistons turn this trade down? There isn't a single bad thing that you can say about this trade for Detroit. Even if Calderon were completely incapable of taking the floor - this would be a winning deal for Detroit.


...maybe from a financial perspective. Idk - I don't keep myself up to date on the rules and regulations surrounding salary caps and things of the sort...that's not what I love about the game of basketball. In no way does this deal make Detroit a better basketball team. They were the third team in my "if not all three" comment tho


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

Sounds like Memphis may have blew it with Hollins too. Before the trade:

“If they break up the team and get rid of everybody, I’ll coach them until the season’s over,” he said. “Then I’ll make a decision about what I’m going to do.”


After the trade:

“When you have champagne taste, you can't be on a beer budget. It's a small market and I understand the economics of being in a small market."


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Chris Mannix ‏@ChrisMannixSI
Update: Rudy Gay will play for Toronto tonight. All players have passed physicals, trade has been finalized.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I've thought Memphis was better without Gay since early 2011 when he went down and they turned into a juggernaut. He takes shots away from their most effective offensive options (Randolph and Gasol), and their defense isn't as aggressive with him in there. He is a good player, but he made Memphis worse on both ends. 

This is a good trade for Memphis.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

I don't like Memphis' rotation since this trade. Playing Jerryd Bayless 35 minutes a night is not a longterm winning strategy.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

RollWithEm said:


> I don't like Memphis' rotation since this trade. Playing Jerryd Bayless 35 minutes a night is not a longterm winning strategy.


Bayless won't play 25 minutes a night, let alone 35.


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

Bayless will backup Allen and Conley. If Daye or another Sf can show something. Prince will see minutes at SG cutting down Bayless's minutes again.

I like the addition of Prince he is a good defender of KD with his ultra long arms.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Marcus13 said:


> ''Shocked obviously,'' Prince said after the game. ''I didn't find out, obviously, until I got here. I'm shocked, but it's a business and you never know what's going to happen.''
> 
> How the hell do you embed on this board dang


This guy is at courtside for the Grizz-TWolves game as a special guest of the Grizzlies. Got a pic with Prince and an autographed jersey...nice!


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> This guy is at courtside for the Grizz-TWolves game as a special guest of the Grizzlies. Got a pic with Prince and an autographed jersey...nice!


Cool ending to one of the funniest fan videos to make it to the InterWeb in a long time. :laugh:


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