# Measurements



## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

Apparently they're out??? Found these on another broad.
HEIGHT AND WEIGHT MEASUREMENTS
PLAYER HEIGHT
(w/o shoes) HEIGHT (w/shoes) WEIGHT WINGSPAN STANDING REACH
Corey Brewer 6-6.75 6-7.75 185 6-8.75 8-7
Mike Conley 5-11.75 6-0.75 175 6-5.75 7-10.5
Daequan Cook 6-3.75 6-5.75 203 6-8.25 8-5.5
Javaris Crittenton 6-3 6-4.75 194 6-5.5 8-2
Kevin Durant 6-9 6-10.25 215 7-4.75 9-2
Jeff Green 6-7.75 6-9.5 228 7-1.25 8-7
Spencer Hawes 6-10.5 7-0.75 244 7-0.5 9-2
Al Horford 6-8.75 6-9.75 244 7-0.75 8-11
Acie Law 6-2 6-3.5 186 6-6.5 8-2
Josh McRoberts 6-8.75 6-10 240 7-1 8-10.5
Greg Oden 6-11 7-0 257 7-4.25 9-4
Joakim Noah 6-10.5 7-0 223 7-1.75 8-10.5
Jason Smith 6-10.75 6-11.5 233 6-10.75 8-10
Rodney Stuckey 6-3.75 6-4.5 207 6-7.5 8-4.5
Al Thornton 6-5.75 6-7 221 7-1 8-8
Brandan Wright 6-8.75 6-10 200 7-3.75 9-0
Julian Wright 6-6.5 6-8.5 211 7-2.25 9-0
Nick Young 6-5 6-6.75 206 7-0 8-4.5
Thaddeus Young 6-5.75 6-7.5 210 6-11.5 8-10


COMBINE RESULTS
PLAYER NO STEP VERTICAL MAX VERTICAL BENCH PRESS LANE AGILITY 3/4 COURT SPRINT
Corey Brewer 30.5 36.5 11 11.69 3.22
Mike Conley 35.5 40.5 13 11.63 3.09
Daequan Cook 30 34.5 4 11.12 3.22
Javaris Crittenton 32.5 38 11 11.6 3.32
Kevin Durant 26 33 0 12.33 3.45
Jeff Green 33.5 38 17 12.0 3.34
Spencer Hawes 26 29 9 11.88 3.51
Al Horford 31 35.5 20 12.15 3.37
Acie Law 29 34 8 11.0 3.22
Josh McRoberts 27.5 31.5 12 11.7 3.47
Greg Oden 32 34 0 11.67 3.27
Joakim Noah 32.5 37.5 12 11.79 3.47
Jason Smith 33.5 37.5 15 10.96 3.29
Rodney Stuckey 30.5 35 14 11.34 3.11
Al Thornton 35 41.5 9 11.96 3.16
Brandan Wright 30.5 35.5 2 11.48 3.36
Julian Wright 28.5 33.5 2 11.48 3.36
Nick Young 39.5 40.5 6 11.0 3.25
Thaddeus Young 34.5 37 13 11.06 3.19


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Nick Young will be ROY.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Interesting. How is it that some of these guys get an extra .75 of an inch w/ shoes and some get twice that?


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Wow I dint know Mike Conley JR was that small. Thats Iverson small.

Wow for being 6'5 w/o shoes Al Thornton has a monster wing span.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

It wouldn't shock me to see Jason Smith move into the top 10 if he's impressive in workouts. Those are some really, really impressive numbers.


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## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

The one the stood out to me was Jason Smith as compared to Noah. Someone around here was saying we should draft him (with a lower pick, they would have to be a trade) because his quite athletic.


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## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

A narrowed down listed

HEIGHT AND WEIGHT MEASUREMENTS
PLAYER HEIGHT
(w/o shoes) HEIGHT (w/shoes) WEIGHT WINGSPAN STANDING REACH
Al Horford 6-8.75 6-9.75 244 7-0.75 8-11
Spencer Hawes 6-10.5 7-0.75 244 7-0.5 9-2
Joakim Noah 6-10.5 7-0 223 7-1.75 8-10.5
Jason Smith 6-10.75 6-11.5 233 6-10.75 8-10
Brandan Wright 6-8.75 6-10 200 7-3.75 9-0

Julian Wright 6-6.5 6-8.5 211 7-2.25 9-0
Jeff Green 6-7.75 6-9.5 228 7-1.25 8-7
Nick Young 6-5 6-6.75 206 7-0 8-4.5
Thaddeus Young 6-5.75 6-7.5 210 6-11.5 8-10


COMBINE RESULTS
PLAYER NO STEP VERTICAL MAX VERTICAL BENCH PRESS LANE AGILITY 3/4 COURT SPRINT
Al Horford 31 35.5 20 12.15 3.37
Spencer Hawes 26 29 9 11.88 3.51
Joakim Noah 32.5 37.5 12 11.79 3.47
Jason Smith 33.5 37.5 15 10.96 3.29
Brandan Wright 30.5 35.5 2 11.48 3.36

Julian Wright 28.5 33.5 2 11.48 3.36
Jeff Green 33.5 38 17 12.0 3.34
Nick Young 39.5 40.5 6 11.0 3.25
Thaddeus Young 34.5 37 13 11.06 3.19


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## Fizer Fanatic (Jun 20, 2002)

Hawes had pretty good lane agility considering how some said he was a plodder. Don't care much for the relatively short arms (compared to the freaks), lack of vertical and sprint time. Still, I could see him being effective if he's quick.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

darlets said:


> PLAYER HEIGHT(w/o shoes) HEIGHT (w/shoes) WEIGHT WINGSPAN STANDING REACH
> 
> Spencer Hawes 6-10.5 7-0.75 244 7-0.5 9-2
> Al Horford 6-8.75 6-9.75 244 7-0.75 8-11
> ...


So... 
Hawes can't jump and he's the weakest and slowest of the big's we'd be interested in drafting.
Horford is Tyrus Thomas size, is not a great leaper, but is strong as hell. 
Jason Smith seems to have the physical tools and may be worth a look.
Josh McRoberts doesn't measure up to the rest of this group in any way.
Joakim Noah is still my favorite Big on this list.


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

LMFAO @ some of these guys wearing gym shoes with the thickest heels AS WELL as elevator sole inserts.

SMH.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

jbulls said:


> Interesting. How is it that some of these guys get an extra .75 of an inch w/ shoes and some get twice that?


Or 3x that (Spencer Hawes)


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## Fizer Fanatic (Jun 20, 2002)

I'm surprised that Brewer doesn't have longer arms. And Durant is really odd w/ those long arms, slow times and no vertical. I'm assuming Oden elected not to participate in the bench press. Did Durant do the same, or could he not lift the bar?


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## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

Fizer Fanatic said:


> I'm surprised that Brewer doesn't have longer arms. And Durant is really odd w/ those long arms, slow times and no vertical. I'm assuming Oden elected not to participate in the bench press. Did Durant do the same, or could he not lift the bar?


From another message board, it was stated Oden didn't do it because of his wrist. Don't know about Durant.


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## K-Dub (Jun 26, 2005)

Julian Wright is gonna drop far. 6'6.5" w/o shoes...


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## HINrichPolice (Jan 6, 2004)

Durant benched 185 zero times, which isn't surprising considering how thin he is and how long his arms are.


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## Fizer Fanatic (Jun 20, 2002)

I think Green moves ahead of Wright in my mind based on these numbers, Green's more athletic than I thought. Wright's wingspan and standing reach are huge.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

I think in years past players generally get about 1 1/4 inches when in shoes versus in socks. I think the player that really did himself the most good is Jeff green. 6'9" in shoes, 7'1" inch wing span and Randolph 33.5 standing (no step) vertical and 38' with a step. Wow those are great numbers. I think he moves into the top 8.

I also think the Noel really improved his draft position. 7'0" with a 7'2" wing span and no step jump of 32.5 and with a step 37.5". Those are super numbers.

And Brewer is top 6 for sure. at 6'8" he looks like poor man's scotty pippen. 

david


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Don't be freaked out by Hawe's bench press numbers. Keep in mind that he's a freshman (19 years old?), so 185 lbs nine times isn't awful. A few years from now he could double that. I bet Noah wouldn't have lifted it even once after his freshman year.

Even so, Hawes' vertical and speed was one huge friggin notch behind Oden (not surprising). Fortunately, these drills aren't designed for 7-footers so I'm not hopping off the Hawes bandwagon yet. But it certainly makes Oden look good to be sure.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

My guy for the Bulls (outside the top 2) has always been Joakim Noah, because I thought he would drop based on workouts and would be a steal at #9. Now we may need to move up to secure him. 37.5" vertical for a 7 footer? Forget about it. 

I was impressed by Jason Smith's highlight reel, and even more impressed by his combine results (except for the wingspan). His highlights reminded me of Bargnani last year. 

Brandan Wright at 200lbs with a poor vertical leap is discouraging. He could just be one of those guys that has a hard time putting on weight.

edit: second glance Wright's max vertical isn't that bad.


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## laso (Jul 24, 2002)

SALO said:


> My guy for the Bulls (outside the top 2) has always been Joakim Noah, because I thought he would drop based on workouts and would be a steal at #9. Now we may need to move up to secure him. 37.5" vertical for a 7 footer? Forget about it.
> 
> I was impressed by Jason Smith's highlight reel, and even more impressed by his combine results (except for the wingspan). His highlights reminded me of Bargnani last year.
> 
> ...


Noah does seem to have croc arms though...


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## dsouljah9 (Jul 9, 2002)

It's hard to read; hopefully someone will post a readable one because that one's hard to decipher.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

What is my guy Hawes doing showing up for his measurement in high heels. Dude, you're 6'11 to 7' with normal shoes on. That's plenty of height for a center. Chill. 

Hawes tests are about as I expected. He never looked like he had particularly long arms. His arms are pretty skinny right now and his body is underdeveloped, so not reaching double figures in the bench press doesn't impress me. Nor is he much of a shot blocker, so his low vertical number surprised me. His lane agility was respectable for a guy his size, but his 3/4 quart sprint was all the way on the slow end. 

Hawes is still my guy. Nothing I see here changes my mind. His game is predecated on skill, and he's the most skilled 7 footer in the post that I've seen come out of college in a while. I really hope he drops to us at 9, though I am not sure he will.

Horford's numbers are exactly as I figured: about 6'10, built like a tank, good athlete. I think he's big enough to play center in the league.

Noah is a little taller than I might have thought. How tall is he if you add the afro on top, I wonder? He's a good leaper too, though not particularly fast or quick according to drills.

I'm not surprised to see that Durant isn't the athlete he was often given credit as being. His game is predicated on length and tremendous skill. He'll be fine.

Brandan Wright looks like Starvin Marvin. Can you really draft a 6'10 200lb guy #3 if you're the Hawks? I hope so, becuase I don't want any part of a guy that skinny in the post. And we thought Tyrus was a stringbean!

Brewer is very tall but also really think. He really has a 2/3 tweener body. Julian Wright, Thad Young, Jeff Green, and Al Thornton all look like true 3's. No height or size problems at the position with any of those guys, though Thad is a little shorter than I thought. 

All in all, I see no real surprises or red flags on any of these tests except for Brandan Wright's 200lb measurement.

Don't let these athletic run/jump tests change your judgement of players you like too much. Caron Butler tested terribly in these tests and was only 6'5.5 wihtout shoes, and he's a hell of an NBA player.

Oh yeah, and Oden is a specimen. Like we didn't know that.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

Not impressive stats at all. Too bad Zach Randolph or Tyrus can't play Center. Maybe Yi will make the Chicago Dream come true.

Oh well, I don't think any of them stand out based on these numbers. Just furthers the debate on a group that is not very clear as to who is the standout.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

chifaninca said:


> Not impressive stats at all. Too bad Zach Randolph or Tyrus can't play Center. Maybe Yi will make the Chicago Dream come true.
> 
> Oh well, I don't think any of them stand out based on these numbers. Just furthers the debate on a group that is not very clear as to who is the standout.


I'm assuming that you aren't counting Oden, who stands out like big time trouble for the rest of the league until he reaches retirement age in a couple of years (he looks like a 19 year old in a 38 year old body).


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## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

McBulls said:


> I'm assuming that you aren't counting Oden, who stands out like big time trouble for the rest of the league until he reaches retirement age in a couple of years (he looks like a 19 year old in a 38 year old body).


Not that he needs it, but his likely to get heavier/stronger as he gets older.
He is a worry. I can see him becoming very good by the time Duncan starts to slow down some. Looks like you'll be facing a big guy from the west for a long time to come.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Hehe. Next year will be exciting. I chuckle a little when everyone talks about Oden "a few years from now" because I'm not so sure he won't average 17 and 11 as a rookie.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

1) Joakim Noah's numbers look impressive until you realize he's only 223 pounds. That's SF territory. He WON'T last long in the post, and if he bulks up to center size (which will require a good 20-25 pounds minimum), he'll lose alot of those "athletic numbers". So I don't put a whole lot of weight in them.

2) I'd be curious to see how these numbers stack up to LaMarcus Aldridges (and Bargnani's) combine numbers from last season.


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## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> Hehe. Next year will be exciting. I chuckle a little when everyone talks about Oden "a few years from now" because I'm not so sure he won't average 17 and 11 as a rookie.


Yeah, people seem to be overlooking his over 250 pounds already. Would he be the most phyiscally gifted centre in the league next year? I don't want to get to hung up on stats, but I see him putting up solid numbers.

[The Krakken]
1) Joakim Noah's numbers look impressive until you realize he's only 223 pounds. That's SF territory. He WON'T last long in the post, and if he bulks up to center size (which will require a good 20-25 pounds minimum), he'll lose alot of those "athletic numbers". So I don't put a whole lot of weight in them.

2) I'd be curious to see how these numbers stack up to LaMarcus Aldridges (and Bargnani's) combine numbers from last season.[/QUOTE]
Those measurements (all the players) made things less clear if anything.
Nick Youngs are pretty out there given his shooting ability on top of it.

Jason Smith looks stock would be up after that.


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## Philomath (Jan 3, 2003)

Man. I don't know. I'm afraid watching Noah shoot jump shots will make me want to go watch Chandler do it instead. Will he ever average double figures in points?

Durant has the craziest stats I've ever seen. He has half an inch more wingspan than Oden and half a foot more than Jason Smith, who is nearly 2" taller. A terrible no-step vertical, a pretty bad max vertical, one of the worst sprints and the worst agility out of the whole field. Is Spencer Hawes really more agile than Kevin Durant by 0.45? He also can standing jump as high, and nearly run as fast? Wow. Not to speak heresy, but I have to ask - Durant will get his shot off when Tayshaun Prince is guarding him, right? Long arms and an improving handle will cure a lot of ills, but eesh. I wonder if he is out of shape, or dinged up. This doesn't show how quick and athletic he is, or is supposed to be anyway.

Other things that jump out:

- Nobody over 6'11.0 out of shoes
- The Youngs look crazy athletic, more so than I expected. The Wrights do not. If Nick Young is shooting as well as people are saying, he has to move up. 
- Surprised Noah can't outrun McRoberts or Horford.
- Oden is much faster and more agile than I gave him credit for

If Portland was unsure who goes #1, which they probably weren't, maybe Durant's unimpressive times will help cinch it.


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## the-asdf-man (Jun 29, 2006)

Comparisons:

Tyrus Thomas:
No Step Vertical - 34 in
Max Vertical - 39.5 in
Bench - 8 times
Lane Agility - 11.36
Sprint - 3.2

looks like tyrus is almost as strong as hawes and as fast/more agile as oden :-D


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

I think Jeff Green really improved his stock with the combine results compared to his peers. He definitely could add some weight to his frame and might eventually be able to play a little PF. Get a little confidence and the kid could really be something.

Jason Smith also seemed to have a great workout. He didn't show any weaknesses outside of maybe his wingspan, but his standing reach seemed to be just fine. He beat everyone in that list in the lane agility drills. He might not be such a reach at #9 any more depending on his workouts. I have no opinion as I've never seen him play. Sad to say, I've seen Fernandez, Belinelli, and Yi all at least half a dozen times. I've even seen Tomac and Tomas play a couple of times each.

I thought Thornton would measure out at 6'8" with shoes, but I guess his college measurements were accurate. His running jump was the best out of everyone, which wasn't all that surprising to me. Seems to be the most athletic and have the best shot out of the SF/PF guys (Green, Wright, and Thornton).

Smith, Hawes, and Noah really surprised me with their bench reps. Get a 7 footer with long arms and they usually are lucky to put up 5 reps.

Good god at Nick Young's standing vertical. Makes me wonder how high he can go, because it appears he got a bad running vertical. If we didn't have Thabo or the frontcourt need, I think he would garner a serious look. Unfortunately, we have need to consider and I really doubt he'll be a consensus BPA at #9.


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## Philomath (Jan 3, 2003)

the-asdf-man said:


> Comparisons:
> 
> Tyrus Thomas:
> No Step Vertical - 34 in
> ...


Err, yeah, and 3 and a half inches shorter lol. Those are impressive numbers though. And Tyrus's standing reach was an inch and a half bigger than Noah's. Hmm. I'm starting to think that unless Noah can play at 250, we may already have a better him.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

The Krakken said:


> 2) I'd be curious to see how these numbers stack up to LaMarcus Aldridges (and Bargnani's) combine numbers from last season.


Here is LaMarcus (last year) vs. his (I assume) soon to be teammate:

http://www.basketballforum.com/port...-draft-camp-physical-freak-3.html#post4796000

I think I read that by the end of the year LaMarcus was up to 245lbs and continued to grow - adding about an inch.

I still can not believe that KP was able to pry him away for TT and Victor.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

And Aldridge? Looking at the post directly above this one, It appears that Aldridge is slower than Hawes, less agile in the post, and lighter while being the same height. It also appears that Hawes was stronger than Aldridge was last year as well. Considering how the knock on them was how he (aldridge) would disappear in big games (how quickly we forget), I'm not convinced the difference between them is that great.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

andalusian said:


> Here is LaMarcus (last year) vs. his (I assume) soon to be teammate:
> 
> http://www.basketballforum.com/port...-draft-camp-physical-freak-3.html#post4796000
> 
> ...


Haha. I don't think there was any prying involved. If Pax wanted him, he would've taken him and wouldn't have traded him just to add a role player. I think he made the right decision.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

Actually, Aldridge was faster than Hawes and jumps 5 inches higher. He was a tiny bit slower in the lane agility test.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Philomath said:


> Err, yeah, and 3 and a half inches shorter lol. Those are impressive numbers though. And Tyrus's standing reach was an inch and a half bigger than Noah's. Hmm. I'm starting to think that unless Noah can play at 250, we may already have a better him.


And Tyrus seems to have grown a good inch or so! If he adds some serious muscle this season who knows...


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

JeremyB0001 said:


> Haha. I don't think there was any prying involved. If Pax wanted him, he would've taken him and wouldn't have traded him just to add a role player. I think he made the right decision.


Could be right, but after seeing the both of them last year - it would be highly surprising if TT will be as good a player as LA (in my opinion). Aldridge looks so much like a young Rasheed Walace with his head screwed on right - it is almost scary.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Seems to reinforce the perception that Hawes isn't a stellar athlete, but he didn't stink up the place either. The underwhelming running vertical is the only thing that jumps out as a potential red flag, but he gets off the ground enough to finish at the rim and possibly alter shots.

Noah is quite a run-jump athlete for his height. Hopefully he can add some bulk without losing that explosion. Probably depends how much weight he gains. It's usually possible for skinny guys to bulk up and maintain their athleticism or even improve it a little, particularly when they're young.

Seeing that Horford just about has legit center size, I wonder what it would take to trade up to a slot where we can get him.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

The Krakken said:


> And Aldridge? Looking at the post directly above this one, It appears that Aldridge is slower than Hawes, less agile in the post, and lighter while being the same height. It also appears that Hawes was stronger than Aldridge was last year as well. Considering how the knock on them was how he (aldridge) would disappear in big games (how quickly we forget), I'm not convinced the difference between them is that great.


Solid points.

The only thing that worries me is Hawes vertical.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Everyone's measurements in Excel:

http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/Orlando 2007-Complete Results.xls


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> Solid points.
> 
> The only thing that worries me is Hawes vertical.


Agreed. I've never heard of ANYONE only gaining 3 inches on their vertical when given an opportunity to take a step. Wow.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> Agreed. I've never heard of ANYONE only gaining 3 inches on their vertical when given an opportunity to take a step. Wow.


Greg Oden only gained 2". Nick Young only 1".


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## Philomath (Jan 3, 2003)

ViciousFlogging said:


> Noah is quite a run-jump athlete for his height. Hopefully he can add some bulk without losing that explosion. Probably depends how much weight he gains. It's usually possible for skinny guys to bulk up and maintain their athleticism or even improve it a little, particularly when they're young.


I'm not so sure about the run-jump athlete anymore. Just jump, now, maybe? Noah had the second slowest sprint, which is a surprisingly bad result for him. Agree on adding weight, that's crucial for him.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Al Thornton isn't even 6'6" w/o shoes? That's a little scary. But then again, I think Jason Maxiell is way below his listed height of 6'7".


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Thanks for the link Rhyder!

Personally, I don't really care too much about a center's measurements, aside from size. You gotta figure that almost every guy in this draft that we'd consider (bigs) is very young, and not full grown or filled out yet. You watch them play, and see the skill level, and mental aspect of their game and that's more immportant to me. For example, compare Hawes and Noah. Hawes is by far the most skilled post player (a center, but listed as a PF in Rhyder's link) in this draft, and has a higher standing reach by 3.5 inches. Factor in their vertical jump (standing), and Hawes gets up there to 11'4", whereas Noah gets up to 11'7". You must also consider that Hawes has much more skill AND is 21 lbs heavier, along with his agility and speed being very comparable to Noah's...not to mention he's several years younger, so could still be growing and not matured athletically yet. I'd take Jason Smith over Noah too, just going by the measurements. Never been impressed with Noah at all though, in any regard.

The main thing to ask yourself is this: Would you rather have a guy who can run and jump, or someone with a high BBall IQ and skill level? For what we need now, I'd take the IQ and Skill over the athlete. This is CENTER we're talking about, not a perimeter player. 

Personally, if I was the GM of the Bulls, I'd strongly be in consideration of Nick Young, Jason Smith, and Spencer Hawes. I'd trade Gordon for a pick to take Young if we could get Hawes at #9. If Young has good size, athleticism, and can shoot like Gordon, he's an obvious upgrade. Hawes is the center we need to pair with Tyrus. Jason Smith isn't really a center, so idk if I'd take him, but he is intriguing anyway. I'd probably trade Nocioni for Jason Smith too if possible. Noc is redundant at the SF with Deng already being there and getting the vast majority of the minutes. He's undersized at PF, and we do NOT need anything undersized. I wouldn't mind Noc at SF, but if he's going to see most of his minutes at PF, I'll pass.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Showtyme said:


> Al Thornton isn't even 6'6" w/o shoes? That's a little scary. But then again, I think Jason Maxiell is way below his listed height of 6'7".


I was really high on Thornton because I thought he could grow into a NBA PF. At the time, I thought he would at least be 6'8" if not 6'9". Him only being 6'7" with shoes and not being a very good rebounder now gives me pause in wanting the Bulls to draft him. It looks like Jeff Green is much closer to the player I envisioned out of Thornton, although Green isn't a good shooter (which made me really like Thornton). I still think Thornton will be the best pro out of he, Green, and Wright, but it doesn't make much sense for us to draft him.

The only way I really want Thornton now is if our plan is to S&T Nocioni for a big.

I would also not be opposed to us trading Thabo for a big and drafting Nick Young. I am of the opinion that we need more shooters, and the top of this draft doesn't have very many.

I have a higher opinion of Hawes and Jason Smith already than I did one day ago. Jeff Green could end up being a BPA type of pick for us. For me, it would be a tossup between him and Yi (although I'm more down on Yi than just about everyone on this board).

My draft board from a Bulls perspective:
Oden
Durant
B. Wright
Horford
Noah
Hawes
Green/Yi
Smith

Brewer/Thornton/N. Young are also possibilities if we have a trade of Thabo or Noc in the works.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Rhyder said:


> I would also not be opposed to us trading Thabo for a big and drafting Nick Young.
> 
> I am of the opinion that we need more shooters, and the top of this draft doesn't have very many. I have a higher opinion of Hawes and Jason Smith already than I did one day ago. Jeff Green could end up being a BPA type of pick for us. For me, it would be a tossup between him and Yi (although I'm more down on Yi than just about everyone on this board).
> 
> ...


I probably have you beat in being down on Dingaling. I really want no part of him at all. These are some guys I'd like for the Bulls (not necessarily at #9), barring major trades (so Durant and Oden are out):

S Hawes--the only center worth taking, and skill lvl is great.

B Wright--freakish athlete, a more offensive Tyrus, but he's a PF and skinny.

C Brewer--might be BPA. Scottie Pippen anyone? but we don't need a SF.

A Horford--Horace Grant anyone? He's a bit too short for my liking, and again a PF instead of a C.

J Smith--a legit big man, who can do it all. But again, he's a PF and we need a C. Size and athleticism combo make him attractive to me. 

Nick Young--good athlete, good size, good shooter. We need that at the SG desparately.

J Green--like Brewer, might be BPA but as a SF we don't need him.

Marcus Williams--same thing as Young basically.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

It sure would be nice to see how Yi and Splitter would stack up in these simple tests.

The NBA should make it a requirement for entering the draft. It might save some of the more gullible GMs from delusional drafting. Measurements and simple tests of strength and agility don't mean everything (you have to wonder how Larry Bird or Charles Barkley would have done on similar tests), but they're a good objective start to a very subjective process.


----------



## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

Intuitively (for me at least), the important height measurement is standing reach. I mean, the length of a guy's neck and head doesn't help me much in terms of basketball:

Oden (the "gold standard")- 9-4

Noah - 8-10.5

Hawes - 9-2

For a big, it seems to me that the standing vertical is more important than the running leap:

Oden - 32

Noah - 32.5

Hawes - 26

OK, my mind is made up. I'll take Oden.


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## djsmokyc (Jan 23, 2004)

Hope this works, I'll get to the second part in a minute.

HEIGHT AND WEIGHT MEASUREMENTS
<table><tr><td>PLAYER</td><td>HEIGHT (w/o shoes)</td><td> HEIGHT (w/shoes)</td><td>WEIGHT</td><td>WINGSPAN</td><td>STANDING REACH</td></tr>
<tr><td>Corey Brewer</td><td>6-6.75</td><td>6-7.75</td><td>185</td><td>6-8.75</td><td>8-7</td></tr>
<tr><td>Mike Conley</td><td>5-11.75</td><td>6-0.75</td><td>175</td><td>6-5.75</td><td>7-10.5</td></tr>
<tr><td>Daequan Cook</td><td>6-3.75</td><td>6-5.75</td><td>203</td><td>6-8.25</td><td>8-5.5</td></tr>
<tr><td>Javaris Crittenton</td><td>6-3</td><td>6-4.75</td><td>194</td><td>6-5.5</td><td>8-2</td></tr>
<tr><td>Kevin Durant</td><td>6-9</td><td>6-10.25</td><td>215</td><td>7-4.75</td><td>9-2</td></tr>
<tr><td>Jeff Green</td><td>6-7.75</td><td>6-9.5</td><td>228</td><td>7-1.25</td><td>8-7</td></tr>
<tr><td>Spencer Hawes</td><td>6-10.5</td><td>7-0.75</td><td>244</td><td>7-0.5</td><td>9-2</td></tr>
<tr><td>Al Horford</td><td>6-8.75</td><td>6-9.75</td><td>244</td><td>7-0.75</td><td>8-11</td></tr>
<tr><td>Acie Law</td><td>6-2</td><td>6-3.5</td><td>186</td><td>6-6.5</td><td>8-2</td></tr>
<tr><td>Josh McRoberts</td><td>6-8.75</td><td>6-10</td><td>240</td><td>7-1</td><td>8-10.5</td></tr>
<tr><td>Greg Oden</td><td>6-11</td><td>7-0</td><td>257</td><td>7-4.25</td><td>9-4</td></tr>
<tr><td>Joakim Noah</td><td>6-10.5</td><td>7-0</td><td>223</td><td>7-1.75</td><td>8-10.5</td></tr>
<tr><td>Jason Smith</td><td>6-10.75</td><td>6-11.5</td><td>233</td><td>6-10.75</td><td>8-10</td></tr>
<tr><td>Rodney Stuckey</td><td>6-3.75</td><td>6-4.5</td><td>207</td><td>6-7.5</td><td>8-4.5</td></tr>
<tr><td>Al Thornton</td><td>6-5.75</td><td>6-7</td><td>221</td><td>7-1</td><td>8-8</td></tr>
<tr><td>Brandan Wright</td><td>6-8.75</td><td>6-10</td><td>200</td><td>7-3.75</td><td>9-0</td></tr>
<tr><td>Julian Wright</td><td>6-6.5</td><td>6-8.5</td><td>211</td><td>7-2.25</td><td>9-0</td></tr>
<tr><td>Nick Young</td><td>6-5</td><td>6-6.75</td><td>206</td><td>7-0</td><td>8-4.5</td></tr>
<tr><td>Thaddeus Young</td><td>6-5.75</td><td>6-7.5</td><td>210</td><td>6-11.5</td><td>8-10</td></tr>
</table>

COMBINE RESULTS
<table>
<tr><td>PLAYER</td><td>NO STEP VERTICAL</td><td>MAX VERTICAL</td><td>BENCH PRESS</td><td>LANE AGILITY</td><td>3/4 COURT SPRINT</td></tr>
<tr><td>Corey Brewer</td><td>30.5</td><td>36.5</td><td>11</td><td>11.69</td><td>3.22</td></tr>
<tr><td>Mike Conley</td><td>35.5</td><td>40.5</td><td>13</td><td>11.63</td><td>3.09</td></tr>
<tr><td>Daequan Cook</td><td>30</td><td>34.5</td><td>4</td><td>11.12</td><td>3.22</td></tr>
<tr><td>Javaris Crittenton</td><td>32.5</td><td>38</td><td>11</td><td>11.6</td><td>3.32</td></tr>
<tr><td>Kevin Durant</td><td>26</td><td>33</td><td>0</td><td>12.33</td><td>3.45</td></tr>
<tr><td>Jeff Green</td><td>33.5</td><td>38</td><td>17</td><td>12.0</td><td>3.34</td></tr>
<tr><td>Spencer Hawes</td><td>26</td><td>29</td><td>9</td><td>11.88</td><td>3.51</td></tr>
<tr><td>Al Horford</td><td>31</td><td>35.5</td><td>20</td><td>12.15</td><td>3.37</td></tr>
<tr><td>Acie Law</td><td>29</td><td>34</td><td>8</td><td>11.0</td><td>3.22</td></tr>
<tr><td>Josh McRoberts</td><td>27.5</td><td>31.5</td><td>12</td><td>11.7</td><td>3.47</td></tr>
<tr><td>Greg Oden</td><td>32</td><td>34</td><td>0</td><td>11.67</td><td>3.27</td></tr>
<tr><td>Joakim Noah</td><td>32.5</td><td>37.5</td><td>12</td><td>11.79</td><td>3.47</td></tr>
<tr><td>Jason Smith</td><td>33.5</td><td>37.5</td><td>15</td><td>10.96</td><td>3.29</td></tr>
<tr><td>Rodney Stuckey</td><td>30.5</td><td>35</td><td>14</td><td>11.34</td><td>3.11</td></tr>
<tr><td>Al Thornton</td><td>35</td><td>41.5</td><td>9</td><td>11.96</td><td>3.16</td></tr>
<tr><td>Brandan Wright</td><td>30.5</td><td>35.5</td><td>2</td><td>11.48</td><td>3.36</td></tr>
<tr><td>Julian Wright</td><td>28.5</td><td>33.5</td><td>2</td><td>11.48</td><td>3.36</td></tr>
<tr><td>Nick Young</td><td>39.5</td><td>40.5</td><td>6</td><td>11.0</td><td>3.25</td></tr>
<tr><td>Thaddeus Young</td><td>34.5</td><td>37</td><td>13</td><td>11.06</td><td>3.19</td></tr></table>


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

nice. and here's draft express' chart. they also add a score and a ranking. somehow Hawes (72) is ranked higher than Durant (78). so lol @ measurements. good thing skill and iq counts for something 

http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=2095


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

DJ Strawberry was ranked #1 by the draftexpress thing. That's nice to see, even if I don't understand how that scoring works. For a skinny kid, he's pretty strong: 21 reps on the bench.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I have to think that Durant either wasn't trying on some of this stuff, or it's just his young undeveloped body being incapable of beating out the "workout warrior" types.

I guess it's also possible these combine drills are done after a hard day of workouts for some guys. Sore/tired legs could easily take a few inches off your vertical, and just as easily take 1 second off your agility drill. It sure would for me, anyway.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Standing Reach


```
PLAYER         Height(ft) Height(in)
Oden, Greg	        9	4
Hughes, James	        9	3
Richard, Chris	        9	2.5
Durant, Kevin	        9	2
Hawes, Spencer	        9	2
Watkins, Daryl	        9	2
Davidson, Jermario	9	1.5
Wingate, Major	        9	1
Gray, Aaron	        9	0.5
Hill, Herbert	        9	0.5
Lekic, Marko	        9	0.5
Traore, Ali	        9	0.5
Wright, Brandon	        9	0.5
Visser, Kyle	        9	0
Wright, Julian	        9	0
Covile, Ryvon	        8	11.5
Tolliver, Anthony	8	11.5
Boggan, Mario	        8	11
Collins, Coleman	8	11
Horford, Al	        8	11
Lasme, Stephane	        8	11
Wyatt, Avis	        8	11
Bradshaw, Craig	        8	10.5
Jones, Joseph	        8	10.5
Kavaliauskas, Antanas	8	10.5
McRoberts, Josh	        8	10.5
Noah, Joakim	        8	10.5
Radenovic, Ivan	        8	10
Smith, Jason	        8	10
Young, Thaddeus	        8	10
Jones-Jennings, Rashad	8	9.5
Doellman, Justin	8	9
Hosley, Quinton	        8	9
Mejia, Sammy	        8	9
Nichols, Demetris	8	9
Sun, Yue	        8	9
Mays, James	        8	8.5
Freeman, Rashaun	8	8
Ibekwe, Ekene	        8	8
McGuire, Dominic	8	8
Sumpter, Curtis	        8	8
Thornton, Al	        8	8
Martin, Cartier	        8	7.5
Terry, Reyshawn	        8	7.5
Abukar, Mohamed	        8	7
Brewer, Corey	        8	7
Green, Caleb	        8	7
Green, Jeff	        8	7
Kemp, Marcelus	        8 	7
Landry, Carl	        8	6.5
Newley, Brad	        8	6.5
Schilb, Blake	        8	6.5
Dudley, Jared	        8	6
Cook, Daequan	        8	5.5
Hunt, Jeremy	        8	5.5
Seibutis, Renaldas	8	5
Strawberry, DJ	        8	5
Salisbery, Dustin	8	4.5
Stuckey, Rodney	        8	4.5
Young, Nick	        8	4.5
Dowdell, Zabian	        8	4
Karl, Coby	        8	3.5
Lewis, Ron	        8	3
Shakur, Mustafa	        8	3
Crittenton, Javaris	8	2
Johnson, Trey	        8	2
Law, Acie	        8	2
Carter, Russell	        8	1.5
Sessions, Ramon   	8	1.5
Green, Taurean  	8	0
Brown, Bobby    	7	11.5
Reynolds, JR    	7	11
Conley, Mike    	7	10.5
Brooks, Aaron    	7	10
Heath, Brandon   	7	10
Jordan, Jared           7	10
Singletary, Sean	7	10
Tatum, Jamaal   	7	9.5
James, Dominic   	7	9
Wood, DaShaun   	7	8
```


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## HINrichPolice (Jan 6, 2004)

If anyone is interested in certain measurements, just let me know. I've imported the data and converted the heights to inches. There are some interesting ratio calculations that can easily be made as well.

Here are player's Standing Reach + Max Vertical

```
Name	Standing Reach + Max Vert
Greg Oden 	146.0
Al Thornton 	145.0
Brandan Wright 	144.0
James Hughes 	144.0
Joakim Noah 	144.0
Kevin Durant 	143.5
Jason Smith 	143.5
Ekene Ibekwe 	143.0
Thaddeus Young 	143.0
Stephane Lasme 	143.0
Herbert Hill 	142.5
Al Horford 	142.5
Coleman Collins 	142.0
Julian Wright 	141.5
James Mays 	141.5
Nick Young 	141.0
Reyshawn Terry 	141.0
Jeff Green 	141.0
Aaron Gray 	141.0
Darryl Watkins 	141.0
Chris Richard 	141.0
Corey Brewer 	139.5
Jermario Davidson 	139.5
Major Wingate 	139.5
Avis Wyatt 	139.0
Sun Yue 	139.0
Quinton Hosley 	139.0
Spencer Hawes 	139.0
Caleb Green 	139.0
Carl Landry 	139.0
Marko Lekic 	139.0
Dustin Salisbery 	138.5
Dominic McGuire 	138.5
Mohamed Abukar 	138.0
Josh McRoberts 	138.0
Joseph Jones 	138.0
Ryvon Covile 	138.0
Demetris Nichols 	137.5
Anthony Tolliver 	137.5
Ali Traore 	137.5
Ron Lewis 	137.0
Kyle Visser 	137.0
Bobby Brown 	136.5
Sammy Mejia 	136.5
Curtis Sumpter 	136.5
Antanas Kavaliauskas 	136.5
Javaris Crittenton 	136.0
D.J. Strawberry 	136.0
Daequan Cook 	136.0
Blake Schilb 	136.0
Russell Carter 	136.0
Rashaun Freeman 	136.0
Rodney Stuckey 	135.5
Rashad Jones-Jennings 	135.5
Mike Conley Jr. 	135.0
Jeremy Hunt 	134.5
Craig Bradshaw 	134.5
Mustafa Shakur 	134.0
Brad Newley 	134.0
Coby Karl 	134.0
Ivan Radenovic 	134.0
Jared Dudley 	134.0
Aaron Brooks 	133.5
Renaldas Seibutis 	133.5
Zabian Dowdell 	133.5
Mario Boggan 	133.5
Cartier Martin 	133.0
Trey Johnson 	133.0
Marcelus Kemp 	132.5
Acie Law 	132.0
Dominic James 	131.5
Ramon Sessions 	131.0
Brandon Heath 	130.0
J.R. Reynolds 	129.5
Taurean Green 	128.5
Jamaal Tatum 	126.5
DaShaun Wood 	126.5
Jared Jordan 	122.5
```
Some other possibly interesting measurements that I've calculated

Weight to Height Ratio (what I like to refer to as "stockiness")

```
Name	Stockiness (Weight/Height)
Marko Lekic 	3.266
Chris Richard 	3.170
Ryvon Covile 	3.165
Carl Landry 	3.110
Rashaun Freeman 	3.098
Mario Boggan 	3.097
Greg Oden 	3.096
Ali Traore 	3.084
Anthony Tolliver 	3.063
Joseph Jones 	3.060
Al Horford 	3.046
Caleb Green 	3.022
Major Wingate 	3.006
Craig Bradshaw 	3.000
Darryl Watkins 	2.985
Rashad Jones-Jennings 	2.984
Aaron Gray 	2.978
Josh McRoberts 	2.972
Spencer Hawes 	2.958
Kyle Visser 	2.951
Coleman Collins 	2.950
Russell Carter 	2.947
Antanas Kavaliauskas 	2.926
Curtis Sumpter 	2.910
Herbert Hill 	2.909
Marcelus Kemp 	2.878
Jeff Green 	2.859
Trey Johnson 	2.851
Cartier Martin 	2.850
Al Thornton 	2.842
Jermario Davidson 	2.822
Reyshawn Terry 	2.819
Jared Dudley 	2.817
Jason Smith 	2.816
Sammy Mejia 	2.813
Ivan Radenovic 	2.790
Quinton Hosley 	2.774
James Mays 	2.772
Blake Schilb 	2.761
Dominic McGuire 	2.759
Stephane Lasme 	2.748
Dustin Salisbery 	2.746
Rodney Stuckey 	2.733
Joakim Noah 	2.703
Coby Karl 	2.702
Thaddeus Young 	2.701
Demetris Nichols 	2.696
Julian Wright 	2.688
Daequan Cook 	2.680
Nick Young 	2.675
Sun Yue 	2.658
Kevin Durant 	2.654
Jeremy Hunt 	2.649
D.J. Strawberry 	2.627
Avis Wyatt 	2.625
Mohamed Abukar 	2.601
Zabian Dowdell 	2.599
Ron Lewis 	2.595
Brad Newley 	2.594
J.R. Reynolds 	2.593
Javaris Crittenton 	2.587
Ekene Ibekwe 	2.584
James Hughes 	2.557
Jared Jordan 	2.542
Acie Law 	2.514
Ramon Sessions 	2.500
Dominic James 	2.482
Brandan Wright 	2.477
Mustafa Shakur 	2.467
Mike Conley Jr. 	2.439
Taurean Green 	2.411
Renaldas Seibutis 	2.410
Bobby Brown 	2.369
DaShaun Wood 	2.360
Jamaal Tatum 	2.350
Corey Brewer 	2.349
Brandon Heath 	2.315
Aaron Brooks 	2.284
```
Chris Richard is top of the class in "Standing Reach to Height Ratio".

```
Name	Standing Reach/Height
Chris Richard 	1.390
Stephane Lasme 	1.381
Mario Boggan 	1.381
Julian Wright 	1.376
Thaddeus Young 	1.363
Darryl Watkins 	1.362
Anthony Tolliver 	1.361
Ryvon Covile 	1.361
Zabian Dowdell 	1.361
Herbert Hill 	1.361
Marcelus Kemp 	1.360
Kevin Durant 	1.358
Jeremy Hunt 	1.358
James Hughes 	1.358
Quinton Hosley 	1.355
Sammy Mejia 	1.355
Major Wingate 	1.354
Cartier Martin 	1.353
Joseph Jones 	1.352
Greg Oden 	1.349
Brandan Wright 	1.344
Ali Traore 	1.344
Jermario Davidson 	1.344
Demetris Nichols 	1.342
Daequan Cook 	1.340
Rashad Jones-Jennings 	1.340
Taurean Green 	1.338
Al Thornton 	1.338
Coleman Collins 	1.338
Aaron Brooks 	1.333
D.J. Strawberry 	1.333
Spencer Hawes 	1.333
Curtis Sumpter 	1.333
Craig Bradshaw 	1.331
Bobby Brown 	1.331
Marko Lekic 	1.327
Dustin Salisbery 	1.327
Rodney Stuckey 	1.327
Avis Wyatt 	1.325
Al Horford 	1.325
Ron Lewis 	1.324
Acie Law 	1.324
James Mays 	1.323
Brad Newley 	1.323
Blake Schilb 	1.323
Rashaun Freeman 	1.321
Mustafa Shakur 	1.320
Dominic James 	1.319
Josh McRoberts 	1.319
Coby Karl 	1.318
Ramon Sessions 	1.318
Mike Conley Jr. 	1.317
Kyle Visser 	1.317
Sun Yue 	1.317
Renaldas Seibutis 	1.316
Antanas Kavaliauskas 	1.315
Reyshawn Terry 	1.314
Jared Dudley 	1.312
J.R. Reynolds 	1.310
Ivan Radenovic 	1.309
Corey Brewer 	1.308
Caleb Green 	1.308
Jamaal Tatum 	1.308
Javaris Crittenton 	1.307
Jared Jordan 	1.306
Nick Young 	1.305
Dominic McGuire 	1.304
DaShaun Wood 	1.300
Russell Carter 	1.300
Trey Johnson 	1.294
Ekene Ibekwe 	1.292
Jeff Green 	1.292
Joakim Noah 	1.291
Carl Landry 	1.285
Jason Smith 	1.281
Mohamed Abukar 	1.276
Brandon Heath 	1.202
Aaron Gray 	1.192
```



If you're interested in any other measurements or calculations, let me know!


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

How does Hawes' vertical match up to other NBA Centers?


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

DaBabyBullz said:


> B Wright--freakish athlete, a more offensive Tyrus, but he's a PF and skinny.


A more offensive Tyrus? Uh oh. Look out, Sam Smith!


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

yodurk said:


> I have to think that Durant either wasn't trying on some of this stuff, or it's just his young undeveloped body being incapable of beating out the "workout warrior" types.
> 
> I guess it's also possible these combine drills are done after a hard day of workouts for some guys. Sore/tired legs could easily take a few inches off your vertical, and just as easily take 1 second off your agility drill. It sure would for me, anyway.


I'm not convinced. I wasn't overwhelmed with his athleticism at texas.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

jbulls said:


> A more offensive Tyrus? Uh oh. Look out, Sam Smith!


Hehe, nice.

:biggrin:


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> How does Hawes' vertical match up to other NBA Centers?


Without doing much research i'm going to say that bigmen dont have the vertical jumps that some might think, for example Greg Oden(who we know is a freak) is 34 and Hawes 29. to me 5 inches isnt that great of a differance. obviously if Oden's is 34 a lot of others around the league are less.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> I'm not convinced. I wasn't overwhelmed with his athleticism at texas.


It has always been clear that Durant isn't an elite or even an exceptional athlete. I put very little stock in the vertical jump measurements, though. Anyone can focus on certain exercises to increase his standing vertical, but that won't necessarily translate to his game on the court. 



Draftexpress said:


> That same Andre Iguodala who was robbed of the slam dunk championship a year ago, only recorded a 34 inch vertical leap, one inch more than J.J. Redick last year.


Reddick clearly worked specifically on his vertical. Iguodala didn't. 

Here's my question: Oden has relatively average measurements (vertical jump, lane quickness, etc.). However, how do you take his size and build into account? A 7 footer with a 32 inch vertical must be a better athlete than a 6 footer with a 32 inch vertical, right? Logically, it should take many more fast-twitch muscle fibers to lift 260 pounds as opposed to 180 pounds. Oden may have longer, bigger legs and thus more fibers but that doesn't make a straight-up comparison fair or valid. 

The  process of compiling measurements and *ranking* the players strikes me as an incredibly stupid, useless exercise. It's shocking that a reputable site would engage in such an iffy, unscientific process.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> It has always been clear that Durant isn't an elite or even an exceptional athlete. I put very little stock in the vertical jump measurements, though. Anyone can focus on certain exercises to increase his standing vertical, but that won't necessarily translate to his game on the court.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What i got out of it is Durant is weak as hell and Oden isnt the quickest guy in space although he is a great athlete. As for measurements and drills on the whole i would want to know that a Brandan Wright is weak and only weighs 200lbs and a Jason Smith is extremely quick and agile for a 7fter, sort of debunks some of the myths with these guys.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Where big men are concerned, what I want to know more is, how quickly do they get off the ground. To me, that is more important than whether or not they can jump out of the building. That is nice too, but if it takes them forever to go through their jumping motion, all that explosion might be useless.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> Where big men are concerned, what I want to know more is, how quickly do they get off the ground. To me, that is more important than whether or not they can jump out of the building. That is nice too, but if it takes them forever to go through their jumping motion, all that explosion might be useless.



Feet and hands too, Mchale had good feet and hands, he had more of reach than Hawes(who a lot of this conversation is directed at) but i can see some similarities there. Like i have said though Mchale is going to see that in his workout this week and they do pick before the Bulls.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

I don't find it dumb to do the measurements at all. I do, however, think it'd be dumb if that's all you went by. It's a supplement to the other information you might have on the players. For example, it is VERY nice, AND important having both their legit height and weight on record, rather than some bloated/exaggerated stat that their coach/agent/team puts out on the roster. It's also nice seeing how strong a guy is, because some big guys are weaker than they look, as well as some sticks actually are strong. You can't tell that with any certainty without seeing the measurements. 

But, when it's all said and done, you have to take that into context with their skill lvl and type of game...like Hawes being more skilled and his type of game not requiring the athleticism that a guy like Brandan Wright's would require for example.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

I like the draft measurements, since they're one of the few objective criteria used in the draft process, and I think these numbers provide a great reference when seeking to compare players in today's draft to players currently in the NBA. I love that there are people here who keep a database of players scores to use as a reference in future years.

Having been a draftnik for about 7 years, I've come to think these things about these types of scores:

Unless a player is exceptional (for good or bad) in these types of workouts, it's not wise to place too much emphasis on their workout numbers. They should come solidly behind game tapes, live observations, and personal workouts. For me, these numbers didn't change my views too much, except that I might be open to the idea that Nick Young might be the BPA at 9, and I'm willing to lump Jason Smith with Hawes, Noah, and Yi as guys I would preferably take at #9. 


It's important to remember that upperclassmen tend to fare better than underclassmen in these types of settings. Having a few more years experience in drills and weight training usually gives your numbers a boost, even if it doesn't really translate to in game athleticism. I fell for this trap a few years before I learned my lesson. I was all over the Luke Jackson bandwagon after his impressive workout numbers in Orlando. Likewise, I was really low on Luol Deng, who had pretty mediocre numbers. And I fell in love with Jay Williams after his dazzling 3/4 court sprint time, and was convinced that Carmelo Anthony might be mediocre due to his sluggish workout results. So, this time, it's not going to re-arrange my draft universe that Aaron Gray and Herbert Hill have a faster lane agility time than Kevin Durant, or that Greg Oden is "only" the 63rd best athlete in this draft.

Despite my reservations about how much these numbers should be taken to mean, they are objective information that can probably give you some subtle nuances about how a player might perform. For instance, even though I don't think Kevin Durant's lane agility time is something that's going to drop him from the #2 spot, I would have the expectation that he's going to have a difficult time guarding SF's on the perimeter, if that's where he's going to be used. When I look at these numbers, I pay attention to standing reach, initial vertical, height w/ shoes, and lane agility for big men, since I think they're the most useful. For perimeter players I like to look at height w/ shoes, wingspan, max vertical, lane agility, and 3/4 court sprint. For all types of players I think the bench press is pretty useless. I would also make all the players wear the same shoe with a 1' sole in them when they get measured. No more platforms, Spencer Hawes.


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## BDMcGee (May 12, 2006)

darlets said:


> The one the stood out to me was Jason Smith as compared to Noah. Someone around here was saying we should draft him (with a lower pick, they would have to be a trade) because his quite athletic.


Yeah, I'd rather that they take Smith over Hawes because Smith has similar size and skills, but possesses much better athleticism than Hawes. I think because of his superior athleticism, he has a better upside than Hawes. I think he would be a great pick at #9 based on his talent, but he's a natural power forward, and it's questionable how well he would fit next to Tyrus Thomas. He definitely would likely look good next to Ben Wallace, but he needs to add strength to fully maximize his potential.


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## thunderspirit (Jun 25, 2002)

BDMcGee said:


> Yeah, I'd rather that they take Smith over Hawes because Smith has similar size and skills, but possesses much better athleticism than Hawes. I think because of his superior athleticism, he has a better upside than Hawes. I think he would be a great pick at #9 based on his talent, but he's a natural power forward, and it's questionable how well he would fit next to Tyrus Thomas. He definitely would likely look good next to Ben Wallace, but he needs to add strength to fully maximize his potential.


...which is pretty much word-for-word what everyone used to say about Tyson Chandler.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

I wouldn't make them wear the same shoes, because some guys wear orthodics that add a 1/2 inch, they'll also wear different socks, as well as different shoes when they play. They should be required to wear what they would in-game though, not just the thickest stuff they can find. We do have their bare-foot height on record too, so you can take that into account with the w/shoes height.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

Quick question. Is standing reach with or without shoes?


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

I'm proud to announce, I am 7'2" with a FRO. However, I refuse to play for the Bulls as I can't wear the headband that keeps the Fro on my head.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

BDMcGee said:


> Yeah, I'd rather that they take Smith over Hawes because Smith has similar size and skills, but possesses much better athleticism than Hawes. I think because of his superior athleticism, he has a better upside than Hawes. I think he would be a great pick at #9 based on his talent, but he's a natural power forward, and it's questionable how well he would fit next to Tyrus Thomas. He definitely would likely look good next to Ben Wallace, but he needs to add strength to fully maximize his potential.


Smith and Hawes are differant players, one a guy with legit lowpost moves who also can play the high post and pass the ball(Hawes), the other guy seems to have a nice midrange game, can really shoot the ball and run the court. I would prefer Hawes but the Bulls could do a heck of a lot worse than Smith. As a matter of fact to me the pecking order would be;

1.Yi
2.Hawes
3.Smith
4. B. Wright
I actually think the first two will be gone and the last 2 will be available


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

thunderspirit said:


> ...which is pretty much word-for-word what everyone used to say about Tyson Chandler.



What a blast from the past. Thunderspirit, where have you been?


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