# DRAFT PROSPECT: Marvin Williams



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

This thread is to discuss all things Marvin. Any other threads created focusing on Marvin will be merged with this one from now one.

Draft Prospect: *Marvin Williams*










Position: *SF/PF*
Age at Draft: *19*
Height/Weight/Wingspan/Reach: *6'8.25" / 228 lbs / 7'3.5" / 9'0"*
College: *Univ of North Carolina*
Birthplace: *Bremerton Washington*

Season Avgs 04/05: *11.3 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 0.7 apg, FG% 51*

Vertical: *35"*
Combine Rank: *15*

Projected Pick: *1 or 2*

*Quick Hit:* A good all-around player with good size and athleticism. Doesn't really excel in one particular area. Thought by many to have the biggest upside in the draft - I don't understand the infatuation. Best case scenario, IMO Jamal Mashburn.

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*The Questions:*
Why is everyone so high on Marvin?
Is his potential really that great?
What position does he play in the NBA?
Superstar or role player?
Which team would be the best fit for Marvin?


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## Pure Scorer (Jul 20, 2002)

*Why is everyone so high on Marvin?*

Athleticism, combined with a great work ethic and not a selfish player. Has a developed skill set, isn't raw.

*Is his potential really that great?*

Yes

*What position does he play in the NBA?*

Small forward, but could play the 4 in the future. I don't think he will be as effective as a 4 early on in his career, but he has the physical tools to play in the post against most of the players in the league. I'd still rather keep him as a 3.

*Superstar or role player?*

All-star. Not everyone can be a superstar, and i don't think marvin williams will make it to that level. He will float around the top 10-15 best players in the league, but i don't think he'll get into the top 7 or 8.

*Which team would be the best fit for Marvin?*

Realistically, it's either Atlanta, Portland, or Milwaukee. I'd say the best fit would probably be Atlanta, not this year, but in the future a tandem of him and Josh Smith would work very well.


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

Nobody is a good fit for Atlanta. I hesitate to say Portland because of their horrible reputation, but that would let him be closer to home at least and they have some young talent it seems they are trying to make a new start with.


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## Pure Scorer (Jul 20, 2002)

Portland would be nice, but really they're in need of an outside presence at the 2 more than anything. If they can trade miles for something of value at the 2 then he would be a good fit, especially as portland has a really young core. But they already have Travis Outlaw who looks to be in their future plans.

Atlanta would work imo because they have childress/smith. Childress can work the perimeter and midrange, with smith cutting and running the break. Williams will be able to be the number one option, but at the same time won't have to carry the load all the time. Will get a lot of easy points on the break, but will also have a chance to play in the post and on the perimeter. I think that's as good of a situation as you can find for him, if Atlanta gets a big body (which i think they will through fa) and can get a serviceable pg.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

..

Well where do you put Marvin if Childress and Smith are both SG/SF and Marvin will probably also be a SF? And they also took Donta Smith - not that it really matters, but there is another SF.

Seems to me that if Atlanta were to draft Marvin then they'd be trading somebody... probably Marvin.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

JNice said:


> ..
> 
> Well where do you put Marvin if Childress and Smith are both SG/SF and Marvin will probably also be a SF? And they also took Donta Smith - not that it really matters, but there is another SF.
> 
> Seems to me that if Atlanta were to draft Marvin then they'd be trading somebody... probably Marvin.


Why would you trade the best of the 3 players? He's far more polished than Childress or Smith.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> Why would you trade the best of the 3 players? He's far more polished than Childress or Smith.


Because of the 3, Childress is the only one who can really be a legit SG, even though he is still more of a SF. And Josh Smith is already a big fan favorite and an exciting young player ... Plus at this point right now, because he is the hot name, Marvin would hold more value than trading Smith, meaning Atlanta could probably score themselves a pick to grab one of the top 3 PGs and also get another player or pick in the deal.

You are obviously a big Marvin Williams fan, but I'm surely not convinced that Marvin is or will be a better player than Smith.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

A good question for Marvin is, will he ever be able to play the 4 effectivley in the NBA?


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

DHarris34Phan said:


> A good question for Marvin is, will he ever be able to play the 4 effectivley in the NBA?



I don't see it. I can't imagine Marvin trying to match up wiith KG, Duncan, Dirk, Amare, Dwight, Bosh, Jermaine, Elton ... I think he'll be more of a power SF.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

JNice said:


> I don't see it. I can't imagine Marvin trying to match up wiith KG, Duncan, Dirk, Amare, Dwight, Bosh, Jermaine, Elton ... I think he'll be more of a power SF.


See...if he can't play the 4, his stock lowers considerably in my eyes. Versitility is huge, and if he is only going to be a power SF (ala Antwan Jamison), I don't see how the Bucks can pass on Bogut.


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## Amplifier (Feb 7, 2005)

DHarris34Phan said:


> See...if he can't play the 4, his stock lowers considerably in my eyes. Versitility is huge, and if he is only going to be a power SF (ala Antwan Jamison), I don't see how the Bucks can pass on Bogut.


They could trade the #1 pick to the Celtics for Raef, same affect.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Amplifier said:


> They could trade the #1 pick to the Celtics for Raef, same affect.


Just stop.


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## KB21 (Jun 20, 2003)

If the Hawks draft Marvin Williams, Josh Smith will very likely slide down to the power forward position. He's a big kid who played both spots last season and played really well as a power forward. It was his best defensive position, and his per 48 stats as a power forward were 21 ppg and 14 rpb.

Al Harrington would be the likely trade option if/when the Hawks take Marvin Williams.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I honestly don't see the evidence for Marvin Williams ever being more than a very good player.There are dozens of NBA forwards who can do everything that he can just as well or better in the real world.If I were Atlanta I would look for some GM willing to overpay and move down to a position where I could get a PG that would help me win.Either that or I would take Paul with their pick.It's not like they'll win the title with either,but Paul makes them a competitive team if everything else went well.


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## ItalianStallion (Jun 8, 2005)

yeah.. somehow marvin does not excite me that much... it seems a little unproven to be picked that high... but i guess im the only one thinking that way. in any case, no way he manages to play the 4 and that lowers his stock a lot. hell be a good 3, but not the super super star than most people say IMO.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

Why would it lower his stock any? Do you see teams asking guys like McGrady, LeBron or Marion to move to the 4 spot? Or vice versa any strong 4 trying to play the wing? You have a position and you play it. If he could play both then you'd rag on him for being a tweener. All you're doing is looking for a reason to hate.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> Why would it lower his stock any? Do you see teams asking guys like McGrady, LeBron or Marion to move to the 4 spot? Or vice versa any strong 4 trying to play the wing? You have a position and you play it. If he could play both then you'd rag on him for being a tweener. All you're doing is looking for a reason to hate.



Tmac and Lebron are both almost exclusively SG/SF. Tmac has played both positions in the NBA and Lebron has played PG, SG, and SF. Marion before this season played almost exclusively SF and spent almost all of this last season at PF. So where did your point go?


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

How does it lower his stock? He's a SF and he always was and he always will be. He played out of position at UNC; I don't know why people would expect him to play the 4 in the NBA just because he did it out of necessity at Carolina.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

JNice said:


> Tmac and Lebron are both almost exclusively SG/SF. Tmac has played both positions in the NBA and Lebron has played PG, SG, and SF. Marion before this season played almost exclusively SF and spent almost all of this last season at PF. So where did your point go?


Ah, pathetic young fool, I was speaking of the transition between small forward (wing) to post (low block). Which everyone knows is quite a larger jump than sg to sf which is essentially the same position. Marion did play PF last season, but we all saw how that went. So now he's back at his one solid position. Now what was your point again?


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> Ah, pathetic young fool, I was speaking of the transition between small forward (wing) to post (low block). Which everyone knows is quite a larger jump than sg to sf which is essentially the same position. Marion did play PF last season, but we all saw how that went. So now he's back at his one solid position. Now what was your point again?


Do you really think people are going to listen to you when you keep lacing 5th grade insults among your argument?


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

HeinzGuderian said:


> Do you really think people are going to listen to you when you keep lacing 5th grade insults among your argument?


Well he came accross as an *** to me with the "what was your point again" comment. So I figured I'd just be an *** as well.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Marvin Williams is going to be the best player on whatever team he is on next season. Hands down. Why do people think he has to play power forward? That would be the case if the kid wasn't an athletic freak, but he can stay with small forwards, then use his size and even quickness advantages on them on the offensive end. Look at Luol Deng, Williams is much more athletic and has a larger wingspan, yet Deng has been playing the shooting guard and small forward positions all year. He is going to be a star, maybe a superstar. 

I'm starting to think that he should be the 1st pick, but Bogut is still at the top of my list.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> Why would it lower his stock any? Do you see teams asking guys like McGrady, LeBron or Marion to move to the 4 spot? Or vice versa any strong 4 trying to play the wing? You have a position and you play it. If he could play both then you'd rag on him for being a tweener. All you're doing is looking for a reason to hate.


Because the Bucks don't need another Wing. We could have TJ, Michael, and Marvin on the wings (which would be great), but Joe and Gadz are going to get dominated night in and night out down low, like they did this past season. 

If Marvin was a 4, or had potential to be a great PF, then that would alleviate some of my concern, but right now, he is a only SF. After those measurements, that is probably his best position. He will probably be a damn good SF, but the Bucks haven't had a low post presence in ages, and passing Bogut for a SF, who is less than a sure thing, would blow my mind.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> Ah, pathetic young fool, I was speaking of the transition between small forward (wing) to post (low block). Which everyone knows is quite a larger jump than sg to sf which is essentially the same position. Marion did play PF last season, but we all saw how that went. So now he's back at his one solid position. Now what was your point again?



:laugh: Me the young fool? Right, right.

Wait, I did see how that went with Marion at PF this season. Uh, lets see, he had the best year of his career on one of the top teams in the league.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

JNice said:


> ..
> 
> Well where do you put Marvin if Childress and Smith are both SG/SF and Marvin will probably also be a SF? And they also took Donta Smith - not that it really matters, but there is another SF.
> 
> Seems to me that if Atlanta were to draft Marvin then they'd be trading somebody... probably Marvin.


Or maybe not all three of them will become players that demand (by their play) to be in the starting lineup, and the problem will take care of itself. Childress, I'm looking at you.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> Well he came accross as an *** to me with the "what was your point again" comment. So I figured I'd just be an *** as well.


Mission Accomplished.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Marvin Williams is going to be the best player on whatever team he is on next season. Hands down.
> 
> How can Marvin Williams go from being the fifth best player on a college team to the best player on a pro team?I don't think he will be more than a complementary player.If he's the best player on a team that team will have a high lottery pick next year and the year after that.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Diable said:


> How can Marvin Williams go from being the fifth best player on a college team to the best player on a pro team?I don't think he will be more than a complementary player.If he's the best player on a team that team will have a high lottery pick next year and the year after that.


He was the fifth best player yet he'll be getting drafted 1st of any of his teammates, and it's not even close. Felton will be top 10, Williams is a consensus top 2. May will be mid 1st round, McCants will be 1st round, and Jawad freaking Williams (you actually think he was better than Marvin?) will be 2nd round. 

Sean May was a beast in the tournament, but looking at the season as a whole, Williams was as important as any one on that team, and it was the most talented team college basketball has seen in awhile. Not to mention his game translates very well into the NBA, which can't be said for May, McCants, Jawad Williams and even Felton to a certain extent. Williams also has the highest upside of the five by far, while also being a polished product. 

I'll go ahead and put it out there, Marvin Williams will be a superstar. I'll even add it to my signature. I'll let that speak for now.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

I never thought I'd see someone put forward Donta Smith as a factor for what a team should do with the second pick in the draft.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

RP McMurphy said:


> I never thought I'd see someone put forward Donta Smith as a factor for what a team should do with the second pick in the draft.



..



> And they also took Donta Smith - *not that it really matters*, but there is another SF.



Reading is fundamental.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

If he doesn't matter, why'd you bring him up? He's a worthless player and none of Atlanta's other forwards have even proven that they're big-time players, Besides, none of Atlanta's other forwards have even proven that they're big-time players anyway.

I'm curious, has there ever been a team with a very high pick that's drafted for need instead of taking the best player available, and had it work out for them? I can't remember a time. We all know teams drafting for need have made huge mistakes like Sam Bowie, Todd Fuller, and many others.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

RP McMurphy said:


> If he doesn't matter, why'd you bring him up? He's a worthless player and none of Atlanta's other forwards have even proven that they're big-time players, Besides, none of Atlanta's other forwards have even proven that they're big-time players anyway.
> 
> I'm curious, has there ever been a team with a very high pick that's drafted for need instead of taking the best player available, and had it work out for them? I can't remember a time. We all know teams drafting for need have made huge mistakes like Sam Bowie, Todd Fuller, and many others.


The point of bringing him up was to add to the notion that Atlanta is stacked with SFs. By saying "not that is really matters" I was de-valuing Smith as an individual point. 

No, none of Atlanta's players have proven they are bigtime players. And IMO, Williams hasn't proven he is going to be a bigtime player either, so what's the difference?

And teams don't usually draft for need at that position, but in the case, Atlanta needs a PG and IMO Marvin's value isn't all that much higher than them taking one of the top PGs.

Either way, I didn't say I didn't think Atlanta would take Marvin, just that if they did somebody would probably be getting traded.

I really don't understand why people are pegging Marvin as a future superstar. Not saying I might not be wrong, but I just don't see why. And I am not just being a hater or anything .. I'm a big UNC fan.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> Or maybe not all three of them will become players that demand (by their play) to be in the starting lineup, and the problem will take care of itself. Childress, I'm looking at you.


What's wrong with Childress? After Harrington, he is Atlanta's second best player. He is nothing to sneeze at. Until Josh Smith can consistently shoot the ball, I will rate Childress higher than he. What drafting Marvin Williams does is it stockpiles talent, regardless of position. Then you can get a look of all your good, young players and decide which ones to keep, and which ones to get rid of. Atlanta is still two or three years away from competing, anyways, so there is no rush.


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## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

Diable said:


> How can Marvin Williams go from being the fifth best player on a college team to the best player on a pro team?


Marvin didn't come off the bench because he wasn't as good as the starters. He was the best player on that team. He came off the bench becuase he was a freshman, and Jawad was a senior.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Marvin Williams was the fifth best player on UNC and the sixth most important.He would have been the third best player on Duke and probably at Wake Forest also.He would have been the second best player at Ga Tech and at NC State.Any NBA team where he is the best player next year will suck on a monumental scale.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

Diable said:


> Marvin Williams was the fifth best player on UNC and the sixth most important.He would have been the third best player on Duke and probably at Wake Forest also.He would have been the second best player at Ga Tech and so forth.Any NBA team where he is the best player next year will suck on a monumental scale.


This is true for every rookie not named Lebron.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

JNice said:


> The point of bringing him up was to add to the notion that Atlanta is stacked with SFs. By saying "not that is really matters" I was de-valuing Smith as an individual point.
> 
> No, none of Atlanta's players have proven they are bigtime players.


This doesn't make sense. How can they be stacked at a position, if not one of their players is all that good. Having a bunch of average or below average players doesn't make you stacked, it makes you average or below average. The fact that you even brought up a guy who will most likely be out of the league before long, just shows how much you were reaching.



> And IMO, Williams hasn't proven he is going to be a bigtime player either, so what's the difference?


There isn't any, but so what? Are you saying that just because a team has one or two unproven players at a position, they should act like they're all set there? I don't agree with that premise.

I don't even know that much about Williams because I don't watch college basketball, I'm just saying that a 13-win team can't afford to draft for need.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

RP McMurphy said:


> This doesn't make sense. How can they be stacked at a position, if not one of their players is all that good. Having a bunch of average or below average players doesn't make you stacked, it makes you average or below average. The fact that you even brought up a guy who will most likely be out of the league before long, just shows how much you were reaching.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You act like Smith and Childress are just crap running around out there on the court. Josh Smith showed some great potential and Childress started off slowly but finished out the year pretty damned strong. I wouldn't say they are exactly unproven.

My point is, Atlanta will be fishing for a free agent center and they already have a number of players on the wing, two of which have already proven they can play. They really need a PG, so why draft another SF unless you are going to move somebody?


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## texan (Jul 10, 2003)

BaronMcGrady said:


> Marvin didn't come off the bench because he wasn't as good as the starters. He was the best player on that team. He came off the bench becuase he was a freshman, and Jawad was a senior.



He was the most talented. But Felton was the most important and had the most impact on the teams success.

I think Marvin is going to be an all-star in the league. Not superstar(Bron/Kobe level), but also higher than Shawn Marion/Elton Brand level. He has potential to be the best defender in the league. He has the length of Prince, but has infinite more athlecism. He also has the frame to bulk up more and could be the physical defender Ron Artest is. I really think he'll be an elite level defensive player. His combination of length and quickness will allow him to guard elite level wings. His offense will also be good. He is a decent 3-point shooter(around 37%), and has good inside skills. He still needs to improve his penetrating skills, as well as his ball handling skills, but I think its safe to say he's going to be an all-star in the league.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

JNice said:


> You act like Smith and Childress are just crap running around out there on the court. Josh Smith showed some great potential and Childress started off slowly but finished out the year pretty damned strong. I wouldn't say they are exactly unproven.


I didn't say they were crap, I said they were average and haven't proven to be big-time players. If I wanted to I could say "reading is fundamental" but I don't like to take cheap shots at other posters so I'll just say I'm not as high on Josh Smith as you seem to be.



> My point is, Atlanta will be fishing for a free agent center and they already have a number of players on the wing, two of which have already proven they can play. They really need a PG, so why draft another SF unless you are going to move somebody?


Because as TheATLien explained, they won't be any good for a couple of years anyway so they can afford to stockpile talent and get their point guard later if necessary.


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

> Why is everyone so high on Marvin?


Length, athleticism, versatility, work ethic, maturity, and potential.


> Is his potential really that great?


Sure. In 3 years, with his length and his athleticism, he could have one of the best inside-outside games in the NBA.


> What position does he play in the NBA?


The 3.


> Superstar or role player?


All-Star. Better than the questionable All-Stars and snubs.


> Which team would be the best fit for Marvin?


Charlotte.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Williams has the athleticism and quickness to be a perimeter player. I believe he has the shot mechanics to do it as well. If he can play the perimeter and blend it with his post game (what small forwards do), he'll be dangerous. He'll have the longest wingspan of any perimeter player in the league, and for a guy as quick and athletic as he is, that's madness.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

RP McMurphy said:


> I didn't say they were crap, I said they were average and haven't proven to be big-time players. If I wanted to I could say "reading is fundamental" but I don't like to take cheap shots at other posters so I'll just say I'm not as high on Josh Smith as you seem to be.


Cheapshot? Come on, it was sarcasm. No, you didn't say they were crap, but I was exaggerating what you inferring to make my response stronger. We all do it.

I wouldn't necessarily say I'm that high on Smith. What he can be is still up in the air, but he has shown the potential - worthy enough of seeing what he will become.



> Because as TheATLien explained, they won't be any good for a couple of years anyway so they can afford to stockpile talent and get their point guard later if necessary.


You could be right ... but it seems like getting a top notch PG in the NBA is tougher than scoring yourself a top notch wing. And this year there are 3 possible top notch PGs in this one draft. If you've already got a couple of wings with good potential, I'd think you'd try and score yourself one of the top notch PGs. Whether that be drafting one of them outright or grabbing Marvin and trading either him or Smith off for one of those 3 and another asset.


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## texan (Jul 10, 2003)

If they want a top notch PG, they better not pick Chris Paul. Get Williams, or Felton. Either one of those guys will be better than Chris Paul. Both have better PG skills and if you have guys like Smith, Childress, Harrington, and others you add in the future. You don't want you PG to be a SG in a PG body.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

..

Question: If Marvin were in the draft with the guys last year (hypthetically, in the same situation as this year, meaning after his freshman year at UNC) - where would he go with those guys?


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

JNice said:


> ..
> 
> Question: If Marvin were in the draft with the guys last year (hypthetically, in the same situation as this year, meaning after his freshman year at UNC) - where would he go with those guys?


Niemritz and I discussed this, and came to the conclusion that he would go anywhere from 6-10....but from where Josh Smith ended up, it could have be more like 10-15....this is if he were drafted last year.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

2005 All ACC voting
First Team (First-Team Votes) 
J.J. Redick, Duke* (121) 363
Chris Paul, WF (113) 355
Sean May, UNC (111) 353
Shelden Williams, Duke (111) 353
Raymond Felton, UNC (82) 311
* unanimous 1st-team 

Second Team
Guillermo Diaz, Miami (19) 243
Julius Hodge, NCSU (22) 227
Eric Williams, WF (7) 222
Jarrett Jack, GT (9) 200
Justin Gray, WF (2) 184 

Third Team
Rashad McCants, UNC (7) 170
Sharrod Ford, Clemson (1) 131
Nik Caner-Medley, Maryland (0) 110
Daniel Ewing, Duke (0) 102
Jawad Williams, UNC (0) 83 

Honorable Mention (25 or more points)
Zabian Dowdell, VT (0) 64
John Gilchrist, Maryland (0) 50
Robert Hite, Miami (0) 27
Marvin Williams, UNC (0) 25 


Yes Marvin Williams will be the best player on an NBA team
next year.

EDIT:Obviously I am being sarcastic.It is not I who claims
Marvin Williams will be the best player on NBA team next year.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Diable said:


> Yes Marvin Williams will be the best player on an NBA team
> next year.


Because he was Honorable Mention ACC? I don't see the logic.


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## KB21 (Jun 20, 2003)

JNice said:


> You could be right ... but it seems like getting a top notch PG in the NBA is tougher than scoring yourself a top notch wing. And this year there are 3 possible top notch PGs in this one draft. If you've already got a couple of wings with good potential, I'd think you'd try and score yourself one of the top notch PGs. Whether that be drafting one of them outright or grabbing Marvin and trading either him or Smith off for one of those 3 and another asset.


Well, you might should tell Pete Babcock that. The Hawks traded Dominique Wilkins in 1993, and it wasn't until last season with Al Harrington and Josh Smith that the Hawks were able to get a small forward that could do anything.


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## Adam Miller (Apr 13, 2005)

JNice and whoever is interested, I add my newest head to head matchup for the arguement. Danny Granger vs. Marvin Williams. Not really that hard but good read.

http://www.draftdaily.com/newsmanager/anmviewer.asp?a=383&z=3


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

JNice said:


> ..
> 
> Question: If Marvin were in the draft with the guys last year (hypthetically, in the same situation as this year, meaning after his freshman year at UNC) - where would he go with those guys?


I don't have any evidence to back this up (and thus this is all from my memory), but Marvin entertained (briefly and not very seriously) entering the NBA Draft last year. IIRC and I believe I recall correctly, most pegged him as a top 5 pick. This was when he was out of high school and I believe after one year at UNC, he still would've been drafted top 5-8 (none of the top 5 teams picked a real swingman). I would have to believe that most teams would rank Marvin higher than Childress, Deng, and Iggy. I love all four players we're talking about here, but really the only thing Childress and Deng have over Marvin is basketball smarts, while Iggy is quicker.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

FanOfAll8472 said:


> I don't have any evidence to back this up (and thus this is all from my memory), but Marvin entertained (briefly and not very seriously) entering the NBA Draft last year. IIRC and I believe I recall correctly, most pegged him as a top 5 pick. This was when he was out of high school and I believe after one year at UNC, he still would've been drafted top 5-8 (none of the top 5 teams picked a real swingman). I would have to believe that most teams would rank Marvin higher than Childress, Deng, and Iggy. I love all four players we're talking about here, but really the only thing Childress and Deng have over Marvin is basketball smarts, while Iggy is quicker.


Most mocks had him quite a big lower than Deng. Somewhere in the teens.


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## bruno34115 (Apr 14, 2003)

Most mocks had Williams slated to go in the middle of the draft (around where the Smith's went). Does this mean that he should go in the middle of this draft? Of course not. Marvin was damn impressive. He averaged 11 points and 6 boards OFF THE BENCH as a Freshman, no less. I don't know how people are not impressed with those numbers. He shot 50% from the field and 43% on threes. On a team as loaded as North Carolina, not many Freshman can do that (off the bench).


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

If I'm Atlanta, I cash in on the Marvin Williams hype train, and trade the pick for muchos goodies.


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## BULLS23 (Apr 13, 2003)

As someone who watches the Hawks semi-regularly (can't get Bulls games down here :curse: ) I don't think Williams will help them as much as people say . . . To me he is Antawan Jamison, and I don't think that's a great thing for the Hawks. Jamison really only plays one end of the court and I don't like Williams matched up with the better 3s in the league. He'd have to show me more defensively to trust him, and I think Bogut just gives the Hawks more value because you can keep the current team (no trading Harrington/Joshes) and see where that goes.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

bruno34115 said:


> On a team as loaded as North Carolina, not many Freshman can do that (off the bench).


But on a loaded team, wouldn't you say it makes it easier for the 3rd or 4th option to get better looks, and that the best defender from the other team wasn't covering him? Not taking anything away from Mr. Williams, but playing on a loaded team could have helped those stats a lot.


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## bruno34115 (Apr 14, 2003)

I suppose playing on a loaded team can have it's advantages. For Williams however it meant less plays designed to get him the ball and less shots.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

BULLS23 said:


> As someone who watches the Hawks semi-regularly (can't get Bulls games down here :curse: ) I don't think Williams will help them as much as people say . . . To me he is Antawan Jamison, and I don't think that's a great thing for the Hawks. Jamison really only plays one end of the court and I don't like Williams matched up with the better 3s in the league. He'd have to show me more defensively to trust him, and I think Bogut just gives the Hawks more value because you can keep the current team (no trading Harrington/Joshes) and see where that goes.


I agree, sort of. I don't know about the Jamison comparison, I think he'll be better than Antwan. If Atlanta drafts Marv, it creates alot of question marks with who starts and who doesn't


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

TheATLien said:


> I agree, sort of. I don't know about the Jamison comparison, I think he'll be better than Antwan. If Atlanta drafts Marv, it creates alot of question marks with who starts and who doesn't


I wanna know why he would be better than Antwan...to me, they are basically the same player, but Antwan was way more polished coming out....


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

DHarris34Phan said:


> I wanna know why he would be better than Antwan...to me, they are basically the same player, but Antwan was way more polished coming out....


Did Antwaan look half as good as Marv as a freshman? No. Let Marv stay 4 years and he'd end up with multiple rings and all kinds of awards, and go down as one of college basketballs alltime greats.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

If we're sticking to the North Carolina comparisons, Marvin Williams is more like Vince Carter was at UNC than Antawn Jamison. Carter was just crazy explosive and rarely used his outside game a lot of the times. Jamison was the go to guy on that team as a scorer, Carter was just there to fill in the blanks and make plays. Jamison, even in college, wasn't the most gifted athletically, he just had an amazing touch. He was a true tweener, and once he got to the NBA, that was exposed because he wasn't quick enough to stay with small forwards. 

Marvin Williams future in the NBA wil hinge on how well he can stay with small forwards, and with his athleticism, I'd say he can do that just fine. Jamison can't/couldn't. 

Imagine how good Jamison would be, if he was athletic and quick as Williams? He wouldn't be a tweener, he would be a legit small forward with an unreal touch, and an explosive first step that would make him unguardable.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Imagine how good Jamison would be, if he was athletic and quick as Williams? He wouldn't be a tweener, he would be a legit small forward with an unreal touch, and an explosive first step that would make him unguardable.


More so than athletic talent, it's Jamision's offensive skills that make him a tweener IMHO.

I don't know if you used the word "quick" on purpose, but Jamison is quick as anyone his size in the game. But only without the ball.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

johnston797 said:


> More so than athletic talent, it's Jamision's offensive skills that make him a tweener IMHO.


I don't think so. He can shoot, drive, post up, etc. He scores in a variety of ways. That is what small forwards do, they score where they're needed. His problem is, he isn't quick enough to guard all small forwards, but he isn't strong enough to guard all power forwards. Defense is usually what makes you a tweener, what you're capable of guarding. 



johnston797 said:


> I don't know if you used the word "quick" on purpose, but Jamison is quick as anyone his size in the game. But only without the ball.


I disagree. Maybe for a power forward he is quick, but for a small forward, his quickness and athleticism is definitely below average. Marvin Williams is an above average athlete to say the least, for both small forwards and power forwards.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

After Marvin worked out for Milwaukee, their head coach and GM said they were surprised with his post moves and that if they drafted him, he would start at PF.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> Did Antwaan look half as good as Marv as a freshman? No. Let Marv stay 4 years and he'd end up with multiple rings and all kinds of awards, and go down as one of college basketballs alltime greats.


WTF?? Jamison was 1st team All-ACC as a freshmen, when the league was MUCH more difficult.....are you kidding me? Jamison was a stud.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> [Jamison] can shoot, drive, post up, etc. He scores in a variety of ways. That is what small forwards do, they score where they're needed. His problem is, he isn't quick enough to guard all small forwards, but he isn't strong enough to guard all power forwards. Defense is usually what makes you a tweener, what you're capable of guarding.
> 
> Maybe for a power forward he is quick, but for a small forward,
> [Jamison]'s quickness and athleticism is definitely below average. Marvin Williams is an above average athlete to say the least, for both small forwards and power forwards.


There is a difference between quickness and speed. Jamison is as quick as they come. Especially to the ball.

And it's not just D that makes Twain a tweener. He has bad handles, doesn't pass well, can't beat people off the dribble, etc. All things that you would like your SF to be able to do. Plus he has some PF skills on the inside (offensive rebounds, etc.)

Twain is quite a unique player. I think it's a mistake to use him as a comparision to other players.


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## Charlotte_______ (May 18, 2003)

Is Rasheed Wallace a good comparison for Marvn Williams?


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I don't see how you can compare Williams to anyone when he really has not shown anything except this potential everyone is so excited about.If he were as good as Jamison or Wallace he should have shown someone and it's silly to say that he couldn't because he was on a good team.Jawad Williams,Jackie Manuel Sean May and Rashad McCants are as good as Jamison or Wallace?If he was then they wouldn't have kept him off the court.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> Did Antwaan look half as good as Marv as a freshman? No. Let Marv stay 4 years and he'd end up with multiple rings and all kinds of awards, and go down as one of college basketballs alltime greats.



That is quite an assumption. Let's not forget that no matter how well Marvin might have played next year, he'd still be on a team that was losing 3 other first round draft picks and another second round pick. 

Jamison's career at UNC would not have necessarily been that easy to achieve.



> The winner of the Wooden and Naismith Awards in 1998 and only the second North Carolina player to win Player of the Year honors from the Associated Press, joining Michael Jordan (1984), the 6-8, 231-pound Jamison was a First Team All-Atlantic Coast Conference selection each of his three years at North Carolina...He ranks seventh on North Carolina's career scoring list with 1,974 points and fourth on the career rebounding list with 1,027 rebounds, having compiled 51 double-doubles in his three-year career...He averaged 22.2 points and 10.5 rebounds per game as a junior, the first Tar Heel since Billy Cunningham (1964-65) to surpass to 20 ppg and 10 rpg...He led the ACC in scoring and rebounding and was named ACC Player of the Year, as well as Player of the Week a record seven times.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Charlotte_______ said:


> Is Rasheed Wallace a good comparison for Marvn Williams?


Not really. Marvin has more skill on the perimeter, but played in the post. Rasheed has all the skills in the post, but floats on the perimeter.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

FYI - Marvin Williams worked out for Atlanta this morning. They were talking about how he looked on 790 The Zone, and they said the hype is real. NBA ready body, good inside game, perfect jumper. They said the Worthy with a jumper comparison is right on, and that he looked as good as advertised. They also said that Harrington should start packing his bags.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

johnston797 said:


> Twain is quite a unique player. I think it's a mistake to use him as a comparision to other players.


All I'm really saying is that he isn't a good comparison for Marvin Williams, and it seems like we agree on that, we just disagree on why.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

TheATLien said:


> FYI - Marvin Williams worked out for Atlanta this morning. They were talking about how he looked on 790 The Zone, and they said the hype is real. NBA ready body, good inside game, perfect jumper. They said the Worthy with a jumper comparison is right on, and that he looked as good as advertised. They also said that Harrington should start packing his bags.


Maybe I'm wrong, but sometimes this talk is to try to lure the Bucks into drafting him, because they _really_ want Bogut. It rarely works, but if the Bucks are for some reason on the fence about it, a piece like this could put them over the top in Williams favor, leaving Bogut for Atlanta. 

I do believe Marvin Williams is all those things though, but not because the Atlanta Hawks organization told me so. When it comes to the top 2-3 teams in the draft, you have to be careful what you believe because there is a lot of mind games going on.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

The Questions:
Why is everyone so high on Marvin?
*Because of his height, his athletic potential, his character, his ability to be taught, his ability as a teammate and his just overall feel as a person. There is not much you can find wrong about the guy.*

Is his potential really that great?
*Yes, for the above reasons, character and work ethic being the most important reasons*

What position does he play in the NBA?
*SF but he could play PF and create some mismatch problems, depends on what team he gets drafted by and just where he will be most dangerous/*


Superstar or role player?
*Superstar.*

Which team would be the best fit for Marvin?
*Doesn't matter, he will fit to the team he gets drafted by. But sadly it will be the Bucks or Hawks. I think he could be better on the Bucks though because then he would not have to play PF or SF because of Josh Smith. But either team would love to have him I am sure.*


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Maybe I'm wrong, but sometimes this talk is to try to lure the Bucks into drafting him, because they _really_ want Bogut. It rarely works, but if the Bucks are for some reason on the fence about it, a piece like this could put them over the top in Williams favor, leaving Bogut for Atlanta.
> 
> I do believe Marvin Williams is all those things though, but not because the Atlanta Hawks organization told me so. When it comes to the top 2-3 teams in the draft, you have to be careful what you believe because there is a lot of mind games going on.


The Hawks aren't smart enough to play Jedi Mind Games.


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## KB21 (Jun 20, 2003)




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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

The sad thing is that those two kids on the right are our head scouts.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

TheATLien said:


> The sad thing is that those two kids on the right are our head scouts.


:laugh:


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## KB21 (Jun 20, 2003)

AJ Prus said:


> I wanna know why he would be better than Antwan...to me, they are basically the same player, but Antwan was way more polished coming out....


Antawn doesn't have Marvin's ball handling ability, shooting ability, or his freakish athleticism. The comparison is not valid at all.

Antawn Jamison is an undersized power forward that cannot play small forward. Marvin Williams is a player that can play both positions, likely at an All-Star level.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

KB21 said:


> Antawn doesn't have Marvin's ball handling ability, shooting ability, or his freakish athleticism. The comparison is not valid at all.


Marvin's freakish athleticism? Decent agility time? A 35 inch vertical? I really don't see a freak athlete.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Antwan Jamison was a better player than Williams as a freshman by a wide margin.There is no comparison whatsoever in terms of talent.Again if Williams is as good as any of the players you guys want to compare him to then why has he kept it a secret?Good players might sit on the bench behind good players,great players do not.


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## KB21 (Jun 20, 2003)

AJ Prus said:


> Marvin's freakish athleticism? Decent agility time? A 35 inch vertical? I really don't see a freak athlete.


Do you consider Amare Stoudemire to be a freak athlete?

If you do, then it might come to a surprise to you that his verticle was only a half incher higher than Marvin's, and Marvin had superior 3/4th court sprint times as well as lane agility times than Amare. Marvin also repped the bench press the same amount of reps as Amare did.


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## KB21 (Jun 20, 2003)

Diable said:


> Antwan Jamison was a better player than Williams as a freshman by a wide margin.There is no comparison whatsoever in terms of talent.Again if Williams is as good as any of the players you guys want to compare him to then why has he kept it a secret?Good players might sit on the bench behind good players,great players do not.


So, in 10 more minutes per game, Antawn averaged 3 points more than Marvin did. And that makes him a better player?

I wonder what Marvin's numbers would have been had he gotten the 33 minutes per game that Antawn did as a freshman? Probably something like 18 and 10 while adding the three point shooting ability that Antawn doesn't have.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

KB21 said:


> Do you consider Amare Stoudemire to be a freak athlete?
> 
> If you do, then it might come to a surprise to you that his verticle was only a half incher higher than Marvin's, and Marvin had superior 3/4th court sprint times as well as lane agility times than Amare. Marvin also repped the bench press the same amount of reps as Amare did.


Difference is Amare was a beast in the post coming out of HS...Marvin's game is predicated around the perimeter....

Also, Amare is 2 inches taller than Marvin....


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

AJ Prus said:


> Difference is Amare was a beast in the post coming out of HS...Marvin's game is predicated around the perimeter....
> 
> Also, Amare is 2 inches taller than Marvin....


How is that a knock on Marvin? He is a SF. Amare is a freak athlete, correct? Marvin Williams tested similar if not better in most athletic tests, therefore.. Marvin Williams is also a freak athlete. Correct? If not that, at least admit he is a ver good athlete. I can provide some images if you do not believe he's a good athlete.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

TheATLien said:


> How is that a knock on Marvin? He is a SF. Amare is a freak athlete, correct? Marvin Williams tested similar if not better in most athletic tests, therefore.. Marvin Williams is also a freak athlete. Correct? If not that, at least admit he is a ver good athlete. I can provide some images if you do not believe he's a good athlete.


It isn't a knock on Marvin...its just that people want him to become Amare, which isn't his type of game....like you said, he is a SF.

I agree he is a great athlete, but he isn't at the top when it comes to the SFs in the NBA.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

I will laugh if the Bucks draft Marvin Williams after your Andrew Bogut homerism for the past two months.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

I will laugh too, because then it means Atlanta gets a true center! Finally!


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

RP McMurphy said:


> I will laugh if the Bucks draft Marvin Williams after your Andrew Bogut homerism for the past two months.


I wouldn't mind Marvin...I just really want Bogut more....

Plus, I don't see the Bucks passing on Bogut...but we will see.....


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## KB21 (Jun 20, 2003)

AJ Prus said:


> It isn't a knock on Marvin...its just that people want him to become Amare, which isn't his type of game....like you said, he is a SF.
> 
> I agree he is a great athlete, but he isn't at the top when it comes to the SFs in the NBA.


I haven't seen that many small forwards in the NBA that are more athletic than Marvin is. If there are some that are more athletic, then you can probably count them on one hand. The only one that is clearly more athletic that jumps out at me will soon be his teammate, and that is Josh Smith.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

KB21 said:


> I haven't seen that many small forwards in the NBA that are more athletic than Marvin is. If there are some that are more athletic, then you can probably count them on one hand. The only one that is clearly more athletic that jumps out at me will soon be his teammate, and that is Josh Smith.


No matter who drafts him, he won't be the most athletic small forward on his own team.

Josh Smith for the Hawks
Desmond Mason for the Bucks
Outlaw and Miles for the Blazers

So I doubt any of those teams pick him just on his athletic ability.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Josh Smith and Marvin Williams could kick those players asses. I am serious, man. Give them two or three years and they will be the best wing duo in the East, maybe in the league. Throw Daniel Gibson or Ronnie Brewer from the 06 draft and Greg Oden from the 07 draft, and then we talking.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> No matter who drafts him, he won't be the most athletic small forward on his own team.
> 
> Josh Smith for the Hawks
> Desmond Mason for the Bucks
> ...


No team should ever pick strictly on athletic ability, that's how guys like Outlaw get in the league. Marvin Williams is a top tier athlete for small forwards, on top of being a very talented basketball player. It's also worth noting that his wingspan dwarfs those other guys, so he is like a taller more athletic version of Deng with an even longer wingspan.


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## KB21 (Jun 20, 2003)

Miles and Outlaw aren't anymore athletic than Williams, and they certainly don't have the basketball skills that Williams has. Miles still hasn't developed a jump shot that he can hit outside of 5 feet.


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## KB21 (Jun 20, 2003)

TheATLien said:


> Josh Smith and Marvin Williams could kick those players asses. I am serious, man. Give them two or three years and they will be the best wing duo in the East, maybe in the league. Throw Daniel Gibson or Ronnie Brewer from the 06 draft and Greg Oden from the 07 draft, and then we talking.


Oh man! Ronnie Brewer is the prototypical point guard for the type of team Billy Knight wants to build in Atlanta.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

KB21 said:


> Miles and Outlaw aren't anymore athletic than Williams, and they certainly don't have the basketball skills that Williams has. Miles still hasn't developed a jump shot that he can hit outside of 5 feet.



Outlaw might be a better athlete. Williams is probably on the same level as Miles athletically. Miles athleticism was very overrated coming in. Outlaw probably is not a strong, but if a recall he has a huge wingspan and huge hops.

I actually saw Outlaw get some PT late last season and I liked what I saw. I think the could really develop into a bigtime player.


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## KB21 (Jun 20, 2003)

I saw Outlaw play when he was at Starkville High School in Mississippi. I have always questioned whether he would ever have the range to play the position his size dictates that he play. He wasn't particularily good at handling the basketball either. He could definitely jump though.

Starkville played McComb in New Albany, MS, one night, and it was a standing room only crowd. People were outside the gym looking in, trying to get a shot at Travis Outlaw versus Jackie Butler. Jackie Butler pretty much man handled Outlaw offensively in that game, but Outlaw's team won.

Both of those players should be at Mississippi State right now, along with Monta Ellis.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Anyone see the Sportscenter where they worked Marvin Williams and Andrew Bogut? It was when the Bucks worked them out. They showed em doing measurements, and it said Marvin came in at 6'7 1/4 w/o shoes and a 7'3 wing span. I thought he was 6'8 1/4 without them? Which made him 6'9 with them.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

dissonance19 said:


> Anyone see the Sportscenter where they worked Marvin Williams and Andrew Bogut? It was when the Bucks worked them out. They showed em doing measurements, and it said Marvin came in at 6'7 1/4 w/o shoes and a 7'3 wing span. I thought he was 6'8 1/4 without them? Which made him 6'9 with them.


No...he is 6' 8.25" with shoes.....


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## bdw0617 (Apr 4, 2003)

I think Marivn Williams will be a pretty good player/borderline all star, simply becase he is just that athletic. Not knocking anything from the kid, but I have seen a "freak athlete" come out of college that was highly touted before that didn't start in front of his other teamates he was supposed to be better than... Corey Maggette.

Now, He actually was better than most of his teammates, execpt Brand but he at one time getting mention to being the first pick in that draft until they figured out he couldn't shot to save his lift (At least at the time)


When I look at Marvin Williams, I see Tim Thomas, minus the three point stroke, plus a little more defense. Both tend to want to play on the permiter. Both are/will be two of the more athletic small forwards in the league. Both showed glimses of what they could do in college before getting drafted (one year out).

Thomas is taller, Williams is stronger.

Tim Thomas has a better 3 point stroke, and had one coming out. 

Williams is right now a better defender than Thomas (which is actually sad)


I am not saying he WON'T be, I just don't SEE him being a player that can lead you to a championship. I can see him being an all-world defender, but I could also see Gerald Green doing the same thing in years to come if he puts his mind to it


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## KB21 (Jun 20, 2003)

Have you seen Marvin shoot?

The guy shot 43% from behind the arc, 51% overall, and 85% from the free throw line. His shooting stroke is one of the main attributes that make many believe he will be a great player.

Marvin Williams has a flawless jump shot.

When I see Marvin Williams, I see a more athletic version of Jamal Mashburn.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

> Have you seen Marvin shoot?
> 
> The guy shot 43% from behind the arc, 51% overall, and 85% from the free throw line. His shooting stroke is one of the main attributes that make many believe he will be a great player.


He only made 19 3 pointers last season....that is WAY too small of a sample to assume he will be a good 3 point shooter in the NBA.....


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## bdw0617 (Apr 4, 2003)

exactly my point... Andrew Bogut actually shot more 3's then William's this season (I believe 34) which is not good if you are supposed to be this ultra-versitile talent...


I remember watching him play the first time... I distincly said to my best friend "he reminds me alot of a young tim thomas" and saying he would be a solid playeri n the league one day..

Then I go to nbadraft.net and see he is supposed to be the number 1 player in the draft...

So I watched him again and for the life of me I JUST DON'T SEE IT

He isn't even the best athlete in this draft. I would be Joey Grahm, Gerald Green, Nate Robinson (which doesnt' count) in front of him.

Being 5th isn't bad, but to be the consinsis 1st pick in the draft, I am really not blown away...

He isn't in the same School as Bogut, let alone same Class.

Take Bogut and put him on UNC.... do you think he would be on the "bench" because "all the roles on the team were already defined befor he got there" lime I have seeen time and time again.

Take Williams and put him on Utah... They don't sniff teh NIT, let alone make it to the sweet 16.

Bogut on UNC and I honestly don't think they loose a game all year.

WILLIAMS DIDN'T START, BECAUSE HE WASN'T READY TO START


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## bdw0617 (Apr 4, 2003)

exactly my point... Andrew Bogut actually shot more 3's then William's this season (I believe 34) which is not good if you are supposed to be this ultra-versitile talent...


I remember watching him play the first time... I distincly said to my best friend "he reminds me alot of a young tim thomas" and saying he would be a solid playeri n the league one day..

Then I go to nbadraft.net and see he is supposed to be the number 1 player in the draft...

So I watched him again and for the life of me I JUST DON'T SEE IT

He isn't even the best athlete in this draft. I would be Joey Grahm, Gerald Green, Nate Robinson (which doesnt' count) in front of him.

Being 5th isn't bad, but to be the consinsis 1st pick in the draft, I am really not blown away...

He isn't in the same School as Bogut, let alone same Class.

Take Bogut and put him on UNC.... do you think he would be on the "bench" because "all the roles on the team were already defined befor he got there" lime I have seeen time and time again.

Take Williams and put him on Utah... They don't sniff teh NIT, let alone make it to the sweet 16.

Bogut on UNC and I honestly don't think they loose a game all year.

WILLIAMS DIDN'T START, BECAUSE HE WASN'T READY TO START




sorry for the DP but I am not done.


I am not flaming Williams, not at all.. but I would take Danny Granger in a heart beat before I took Willams... remember, alot of the things they are saying about Granger were some of the same things they were sa ying about Joe Johnson (who I actually grew up with)... for the life of me I don't see how a guy has no apparent real flaws, can come in and help right away, and you take a kid who doesn't even start for your college team.


Back to my point. Williams will be a good player in the league, I am not questioning that... but not SUPERSTAR, TOP 3 good... More like late lottery good, at least in my eyes...

He could be an all world defender, but I get the impression that if he had a chacne in that, he would have been starting at UNC instead of Jawad...


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

Wow. Who is Marvin going to start over? Jawad? Jawad was a senior and a good player at that. Marvin was better, but was also a freshman. There is this thing that UNC has, called tradition. Anyway, Jawad only averaged 1.8 minutes more. He wasn't going to start over Jackie or McCants at the wings, because UNC was loaded at that position and him playing 4/5 allowed Roy to have two top notch post players on the court at all time, with a 3rd that can switch in anytime to give them breaks. Of course Marvin didn't shoot many threes, he was being asked to play in the post. He has a great stroke and form, it's not like he's gotten lucky and heaved a few bad shots and some of them happened to go in, inflating his %. Marvin should be praised for willing to come off the bench and fit into the TEAM concept, not bashed because his willingness to do so sacrificed his ability to show off what he can do.


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## KB21 (Jun 20, 2003)

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/hawks/0605/27draft.html

I'm just curious. If Marvin isn't any good, then why do all of his teammates say that he was easily the best player on their team last year? Here, you have Sean May saying that if he were the Bucks, he'd take Marvin with the first pick, over himself.


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## bdw0617 (Apr 4, 2003)

HeinzGuderian said:


> Wow. Who is Marvin going to start over? Jawad? Jawad was a senior and a good player at that. Marvin was better, but was also a freshman. There is this thing that UNC has, called tradition. Anyway, Jawad only averaged 1.8 minutes more. He wasn't going to start over Jackie or McCants at the wings, because UNC was loaded at that position and him playing 4/5 allowed Roy to have two top notch post players on the court at all time, with a 3rd that can switch in anytime to give them breaks. Of course Marvin didn't shoot many threes, he was being asked to play in the post. He has a great stroke and form, it's not like he's gotten lucky and heaved a few bad shots and some of them happened to go in, inflating his %. Marvin should be praised for willing to come off the bench and fit into the TEAM concept, not bashed because his willingness to do so sacrificed his ability to show off what he can do.




First, I like Jawad Williams. He is a poor, very poor man's scottie pippen in my eyes ,and I always like the way he played the game.

You just proved my point.

Question.

If Dewight Howard would have decided to go to UNC instead of the NBA... which was a very real posiblity (and would have happened if the 19 r ule was in place), would he be on the bench, or would he be starting.

If you say on the bench, stop lying to yourself.

Not only would he be starting, he would have been first team all ACC, maybe even Frist team all American.

And I am pretty sure everyone here agrees with me.

Now, you have a player in Marvin Williams, at least in Draft Potential, is supposed to be Dewight's Equal, but he doestn' start in front of a player that FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, ISN'T GOING TO GET DRAFTED.... 2 OF THEM ACTUALLY!.


He didn't start beause he didn't bring anything to the starting lineup that the starters didn't.

I also gurarantee you if JR s mith went through and went to UNC, Jackie Manuel would not be starting either. JR smith has proven he can hold his own at his young age against the best in the world, Jackie Manuel won't get drafted.



In all honestly, in the past, the going rate for people with superb athletic ability that don't start and are coming out after 1 year is mid-late lottery.

Corey Maggette, Tim Thomas, I'll even throw in Dejaun Wagner and Rodney White and Eddie Griffin even though they started.

Corey Maggette at one time was talked about as being the number one pick in the draft.

Tim Thomas was supposed to change the way the small forward played.

Dejaun Wager was supposed to be a bigger better shooting Iverson.

Rodney White was supposed to be an NBA Ready Freshman that can score with anyone.

I heard one announcer say in College say Eddie Griffin would be the best player in the NBA in 5 years.


Were did they go?

Corey Maggette=13th

Tim Thomas= 7th

Rodney White= 9th

Eddie Griffin= 7th

No higher than 7th pick.

Coming out of College, Eddie Griffin was more talented than Marvin Williams, and dont 'even try to argue with that because people, including myself were gaga over the guys upside. You looked at him and said "KG with a 3 point shot"


Dejaun scored 100 freaking points in a game. Nuff said. 



Like I said, I honestly think Marivn Williams is good. I don't by any means think he will be a bust, but I do think 1-6 IS TOO HIGH FOR HIM.

Just like I thought #2 was too high for someone you for all intents and purposes, never seen play (Darko) and number #3 (I would have missed out on Pau Gasol, so be it, the odds are in my favor)

lol, think about it, you are drafting a player at 2#, and HOPING that he can be as good as Deron Williams will be, or Chris Paul, or Andrew Bogut will be.

That's a pretty poor business move in my opinion.

Take Darko. At the very best, even 2 years ago, he could possibly be is an All Star.

Many people thought Carmelo would be an all star.

So why not take the player that is already going to be in all-star... While the all star player is still available.

I could understand if you are taking about Lebron/ Shaq/ TD Type Talent, but we aren't.



I never said Marvin didn't contribute, not at all. I never said he wouldn't be the best player on his team. I never said he wasn't the best player on his team now (Becasue I do).

But I also think it's pretty dumb to take a player that doesn't start in the top 3 of the draft. Plain and simple, in hopes of what could be, when you have a player behind him in Chris Paul or Deron Williams that lead their teams in Deron's Case, to the Championship game.



*Of course Marvin didn't shoot many threes, he was being asked to play in the post.*


Well, he IS supposed to be this super athletic guy that can do-it-all... I didn't say that, you guys did. So dont' try to defend him when I simply point out he hasn't shot enough threes to be considered a real threat.

He doesn't have a real back to the basket game.

He is a carbo copy of Antwain Jamison (at least offensivly) without the touch.


I am from Little Rock, AR. Joe Johnson is from Little Rock, AR. 

My Jr High/ High School, has been playing his forever, so him and I are pretty cool, we still work out at the same gym when he is in the offseason.

When he was in the 9th grade (that was jr high here back then) he was my height... I was actually a tad bit taller than him. He played at Dunbar Jr High and was the starting point guard. He was a very good starting point guard, one of the best in the city and wanted to go to Parkview High in the worst way. The coach there however, coach Flanigan has 3 sons, one of them played at Auburn, one at Ole miss, and one at the time was the point guard at Parkview so even though Joe was good, Coach Flanigan really didn't want him.

Then the funniest thing happened. I literaly saw Joe grow damn near 1 foot over a 3-5 month period. He was at least 6'6 by the time school started, and wasn't very skinny even then, in very good physical shape to be a SOPHMORE in high school.

IN other words, I am sure all of you say "man, if I were 1 foot taller, I would be soo tight".... Well, Joe literaly grew 1 foot, and he was that tight (that's why he is able to handle the ball so well, he is a natural point guard).

Anyway my point, he deicded to go to Cental High (the little rock 9 school) instead, and they were already going to be loaded, with his best friend Brandon Greenwood, Jared Hart, Mark Green, who was top 50 in the country as a senior and some thought was better than Joe... I forgot the rest of their names, but they already had 6, count em' 6 future D-1 players on the roster ALREADY and 2 more that would play D-2, and 1 that would play D-1 Football.


Needless to say, Central was considered to be one of the better teams in the country, they got as high as 4 I think Joes Senior year.

Joe could easily play the 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 in high school. Very easily. I never seen him score over 25 points in a high school game, he was more content on letting everyone else shine. The running joke is that Joe can play a bunch of pre school kids, or nba all stars, and his line is going to look the exact same.

Because he was the most versitle player on the team, did the coach put him on the bench to "help the team out"? Joe came down with the flu one day and they played the 2nd best team in the state, and proceeded to beat them by 36 points, so they didn't need him to win. *Joe was the starting Power Forward on the team and he made the team better because they played off of him*. I mean, the talent drop off from Joe to the rest of the players wasn't THAT big. I don't think there was any betten Joe and Jared, just Jared never really had his head on straight. So why didn't Joe come off of the bench for the betterment of the team? 

bEcause he was the best player on the team.

YOur logic is like saying Lamar Odom shouldn't ever start because he is so versitile that he can come off of the bench.

I do think it's a great sign that he has a team concept and wants to win. But If I am not one of, THE best player on the team, I want to, and I will start. Simple as that. I bring more to the team then when I am sitting on the bench.

Jawad williams is versitle, can hit the open 3 play the 3 or 4... why couldn't he come off of the bench?


*I'm just curious. If Marvin isn't any good, then why do all of his teammates say that he was easily the best player on their team last year? Here, you have Sean May saying that if he were the Bucks, he'd take Marvin with the first pick, over himself.*



Now you are just being silly.

What in the world do you want him to say 

"yeah, I know I have no chance in hell of being the first pick of the draft, and this kid, my teammate has the hype machine going, but honestly I don't think he was good enough to start here.. if I were you, I would choose the White Kid from Utah, he is a beast."


For your information, he had it right, I would choose Marvin Williams over Sean May.

But Sean may isn't going to be a top 7 pick. Sean may is going to be at top 15 pick and a good, very good NBA player. So I can still take Marivn at 6-8, were I would feel comfortable taking him before taking Sean May.


Like I said, I actually LIke Marvin Williams, but the Risk at 1 or even 2# is greater than the reward.

Deron is as sure as a sure thing gets. He is going to be a upper echolon PG in this league, and there aren't too many of thoose. And you are passing on him IN HOPES of developing a player as good as he will be, maybe slightly better, at a position that it's easist to find athletic young good players, small foward.

Even with Darko, the arguement could be made that Darko is a ture Big man, and you really can't aruge with it because they dont' come along often.


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