# Isiah Thomas...



## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

The season is coming to an end, so it would have been only a matter of time before someone came out with a post in relation to this man. From the time Isiah Thomas got here, he has probably had the most pressure of any executive of any sport in this country. Not only did he have the spotlight of New York on him but he had the added disadvantage of salvaging a franchise composed of 31 one year old injuried veterans and their long term contracts that resulted in a league leading payroll, courtesy of Mr. Scott Layden. 

Despite the odds stacked against him, Isiah has managed to completely change the face of the franchise in a matter of 3 seasons. We have managed to successfully rebuild, adding several talented and still improving young players. In addition to that, Isiah has become the coach of the franchise and improved the team significantly with basically the same roster from last year. In spite of that, Isiah still is criticized. I have to wonder why.

Could people be that foolish to believe that we would have been able to turn things around this quickly considering our original situation? It took the Bulls 7 seasons after Michael Jordan retired to get it right and they never had to deal with the long term contracts we had that crippled our flexibility. Knowing this, I really have to wonder what the hell most Knick fans really are *****ing about. The fact remains that we are an extremely young team, a rebuilding team, and generally have the characteristics of such a team. Do you honestly believe that because we have "New York" on the front of our jerseys that things would be different? You might be able to chalk that up as New York arrogance and embrace that kind of mentality because its supposedly characteristic of us all. I like to think of that as pure stupidity and general ignorance. 

In short, I think we can accurately sum up Isiah's tenure here through the 2006 draft. The guy makes an excellent selection with Ronald Balkman yet you have the general idiots booing him because they simply don't understand what the reality is to winning. Isiah has been doing a solid job so far (with a few draft backs ie Jerome James) and only needs time to get this team onto track.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Kidding, right?*

Brown tried to buy out contracts but was told to take a hike. IT has added Balkman, Jeffries, and Collins. He has also had a very improved Curry, Lee, Nate, and a more seasoned Frye. The Knicks lost 10-15 games in which they had a 4th quarter lead last year, probably due to being so young and new to each other, plus Marbury got hurt while playing his best ball (the team as well)No doubt that last year was a disaster but the team clearly was not as bad as the record. Not to mention the IT-Brown border war that tore the team. I have not been impressed with IT as a coach at all. I think he has wasted TOs, put players together that don't play well together, and featured Curry to the omission of others. I also have to say that this team has proven nothing. They lose when they should (and NEED to win), they play dumb, they play uninspired too much of the time. This team has NOT been rebuilt. The roster has merely been turned over. When they are winning big again, they will have been rebuilt. He is unparalleled as a talent evaluator but what trade has you taking note of his genius? Touting Balkman as a testament to IT's brilliance is a bit premature, don't you think? The player is solid guy off the bench who MIGHT develop enough consistency to be a main piece of the puzzle. Solid pick but it is possible that there are a few players he passed on that might prove out better in the long run.

You also might want to take a peek at the Bulls roster from 2002-2003 Brad Miller, Curry, our own JC, Jay Williams, PLUS they could have still had Brand, and Artest. They just ran out of patience. I would trade our whole team for this:

Curry/Miller
Brand/ Voskul
Artest
JC
Healthy Williams (bad luck)

Most of that team was put together in 3-4 years....looks pretty good to me. What about Denver? It has done OK, but he is no savior. It took him 2 years to realize he had to rebuild.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Kidding, right alphaorange?*



alphaorange said:


> Brown tried to buy out contracts but was told to take a hike. IT has added Balkman, Jeffries, and Collins. He has also had a very improved Curry, Lee, Nate, and a more seasoned Frye. The Knicks lost 10-15 games in which they had a 4th quarter lead last year, probably due to being so young and new to each other, plus Marbury got hurt while playing his best ball (the team as well)No doubt that last year was a disaster but the team clearly was not as bad as the record. Not to mention the IT-Brown border war that tore the team. I have not been impressed with IT as a coach at all. I think he has wasted TOs, put players together that don't play well together, and featured Curry to the omission of others. I also have to say that this team has proven nothing. They lose when they should (and NEED to win), they play dumb, they play uninspired too much of the time. This team has NOT been rebuilt. The roster has merely been turned over. When they are winning big again, they will have been rebuilt. He is unparalleled as a talent evaluator but what trade has you taking note of his genius? Touting Balkman as a testament to IT's brilliance is a bit premature, don't you think? The player is solid guy off the bench who MIGHT develop enough consistency to be a main piece of the puzzle. Solid pick but it is possible that there are a few players he passed on that might prove out better in the long run.
> 
> You also might want to take a peek at the Bulls roster from 2002-2003 Brad Miller, Curry, our own JC, Jay Williams, PLUS they could have still had Brand, and Artest. They just ran out of patience. I would trade our whole team for this:
> 
> ...



Correction, it took Isiah 2 years to gather the assets necessary to successfully acquire the young players he needed to rebuild with ie Mohammed for David Lee and Mardy Collins; Tim Thomas for Eddy Curry; Antonio Davis for Renaldo Balkman, etc. As I mentioned earlier, we were in such a bad situation that we had to go through unconvential means to eventually get to this position to rebuild.

Too often, people take things for it's surface value. What are the characteristics of a rebuilding team? Trading of older players, signing of young players and drafting of young players. All of these things are characteristic of our team isn't it? That is because we are rebuilding. Note for yourself, I NEVER SAID WE HAVE "REBUILT" BUT ARE "REBUILDING," WHICH IS THE PROCESS OF GETTING TO THE POINT OF BEING REBUILT. GET IT RIGHT.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

its no secret that i like what thomas has done, I think he inherited a team with no players with any trade value and made deals that greatly upped the teams general talent level at every position except shooting guard(but H20 broke down the season he took over )

i thought the 1st team he built was pretty good but when houston broke down there was no point in continuing along that path and he rebuilt the knicks and now that team has to grow and become whatever its going to become. 

realistically they aren't much better than they were in his 2nd season when they were 33-49 when they were essentially the marbury and crawford show but this team has a much better future now.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Kidding, right alphaorange?*



alphaorange said:


> Brown tried to buy out contracts but was told to take a hike. IT has added Balkman, Jeffries, and Collins. He has also had a very improved Curry, Lee, Nate, and a more seasoned Frye. The Knicks lost 10-15 games in which they had a 4th quarter lead last year, probably due to being so young and new to each other, plus Marbury got hurt while playing his best ball (the team as well)No doubt that last year was a disaster but the team clearly was not as bad as the record. Not to mention the IT-Brown border war that tore the team. I have not been impressed with IT as a coach at all. I think he has wasted TOs, put players together that don't play well together, and featured Curry to the omission of others. I also have to say that this team has proven nothing. They lose when they should (and NEED to win), they play dumb, they play uninspired too much of the time. This team has NOT been rebuilt. The roster has merely been turned over. When they are winning big again, they will have been rebuilt. He is unparalleled as a talent evaluator but what trade has you taking note of his genius? Touting Balkman as a testament to IT's brilliance is a bit premature, don't you think? The player is solid guy off the bench who MIGHT develop enough consistency to be a main piece of the puzzle. Solid pick but it is possible that there are a few players he passed on that might prove out better in the long run.
> 
> You also might want to take a peek at the Bulls roster from 2002-2003 Brad Miller, Curry, our own JC, Jay Williams, PLUS they could have still had Brand, and Artest. They just ran out of patience. I would trade our whole team for this:
> 
> ...



Correction, it took Isiah 2 years to gather the assets necessary to successfully acquire the young players he needed to rebuild with ie Mohammed for David Lee and Mardy Collins; Tim Thomas for Eddy Curry; Antonio Davis for Renaldo Balkman, etc. As I mentioned earlier, we were in such a bad situation that we had to go through unconvential means to eventually get to this position to rebuild.

Too often, people take things for it's surface value. What are the characteristics of a rebuilding team? Trading of older players, signing of young players and drafting of young players. All of these things are characteristic of our team isn't it? That is because we are rebuilding. Note for yourself, I NEVER SAID WE HAVE "REBUILT" BUT ARE "REBUILDING," WHICH IS THE PROCESS OF GETTING TO THE POINT OF BEING REBUILT. GET IT RIGHT. 

You can make every attempt to validate your ego but constantly arguing with me on mute points will not help. You and I both know for a fact that Larry Brown screwed up last year. I find it humorous on several occassions you've mentioned Curry as being "the same player" as last year but in this conversation he's "much improved." You might not want to walk down this road again because unlike you, I stand by what I say and recall you had a much different take on things in a different debate. 

In either case, Larry Brown had the same issues of playing players who did not mesh ie Malik Rose at the 3 spot and Richardson at the 2 spot. He was as responsible as you may hold Isiah to be for his rotation. AND I KNOW, you are not attempting to make the argument that Brown had to suffer injuries with his players. How about you decide to watch a couple Knick games this season because Isiah has dealt with the same things all season. Currently, we also have David Lee, Quentin Richardson, and Jamal Crawford out, something Brown never had to deal with all at once. Despite that, Isiah managed to win more games than Brown by February around the all-star game. I also find it humorous too that Brown's belittling of his players in public was not central to the problems we had last year.

P.S., I'm not touting Balkman as being the "make all" of Isiah's career. I am saying that the Balkman selection is reminscent of the ignorance of alot of people with Isiah's decision making; they booed a selection that supposedly will play a very big part of our future.

As for that reference to the Bulls, it is completely ridiculous and not valid. That team not sticking together as you mentioned suggests that rebuilding through the classic method does not gaurantee results. Besides, if your so keen to preach patience for that Bulls team, you can do the same for a Knick team that not has proven what they can really do as a team and as individual players.

As for Denver, do you realize how long they sucked before they even got to the position they are in today? Despite all the crap they went through, they are still not considered to be a title contender or even a sure bet to get past the first round of the playoffs. The only reason they are in the situation they are in is because they lucked out with Carmelo Anthony. How many years can you find a Carmelo Anthony in the draft? Hell, teams like the Bulls and Hawks have gone through years of horrible play and still have not found their Carmelo Anthony.


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## Truknicksfan (Mar 25, 2005)

> Note for yourself, I NEVER SAID WE HAVE "REBUILT" BUT ARE "REBUILDING," WHICH IS THE PROCESS OF GETTING TO THE POINT OF BEING REBUILT. GET IT RIGHT.


Well you did say, and I quote "We have managed to successfully rebuild, adding several talented and still improving young players."
Thats past tense if I am not mistaken.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Truknicksfan said:


> Well you did say, and I quote "We have managed to successfully rebuild, adding several talented and still improving young players."
> Thats past tense if I am not mistaken.


I stand corrected. I would like to say that are in process of rebuilding. The rest of what I said still stands.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*You're a nut bag*

Find the post where i said Curry hasn't improved and is the same player as last year. And I.T. HIMSELF said he wasn't going to rebuild and only after failing at winning with his first efforts by way of trades, declared he would have to rebuild after all. These are all facts, not recollection (your tool). I NEVER said Brown did a good job overall but he did some things right. I find it amusing that IT has done some of the same things he refused to do for Brown. My point abouot injuries was that LBs team ALSO suffered them. More this year but the team is also much deeper at those positions.
For a fan, you don't know squat. Kiki rebuilt the Nuggets incredibly fast. Check out HIS record. How fast you rebuild is a matter of how efficient your GM is. Suns ring a bell? They took advantage of ITs vision and unloaded salary and acquired picks. How long did it take them? The Bulls were starting to get results. They were young and had a record similar to the Knicks this year. Based on your comments I guess we should blow up the team? They needed a better coach than Floyd, and more patience. Again, these are facts proven over time. Brand=star, Artest=star, Miller= solid starter, Curry= solid 2nd option, JC= starter...looks like a solid core to me. Better than we have. Without the blue and orange glasses on, what has IT really done? We have some good young pieces that may or may not become a good team. To speculate that the team is going to be very good is not based on anything factual, just hope. 35 win teams don't show anything....especially when the PG has had perhaps his best all around season. This has nothing to do with my ego. I have none regarding this stuff. I want the Knicks to win and if I am wrong on every point and they win a title, I'll be thrilled to be wrong. But I'm not. Talk to me when you can prove that i am.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: You're a nut bag*



alphaorange said:


> Find the post where i said Curry hasn't improved and is the same player as last year. And I.T. HIMSELF said he wasn't going to rebuild and only after failing at winning with his first efforts by way of trades, declared he would have to rebuild after all. These are all facts, not recollection (your tool). I NEVER said Brown did a good job overall but he did some things right. I find it amusing that IT has done some of the same things he refused to do for Brown. My point abouot injuries was that LBs team ALSO suffered them. More this year but the team is also much deeper at those positions.
> For a fan, you don't know squat. Kiki rebuilt the Nuggets incredibly fast. Check out HIS record. How fast you rebuild is a matter of how efficient your GM is. Suns ring a bell? They took advantage of ITs vision and unloaded salary and acquired picks. How long did it take them? The Bulls were starting to get results. They were young and had a record similar to the Knicks this year. Based on your comments I guess we should blow up the team? They needed a better coach than Floyd, and more patience. Again, these are facts proven over time. Brand=star, Artest=star, Miller= solid starter, Curry= solid 2nd option, JC= starter...looks like a solid core to me. Better than we have. Without the blue and orange glasses on, what has IT really done? We have some good young pieces that may or may not become a good team. To speculate that the team is going to be very good is not based on anything factual, just hope. 35 win teams don't show anything....especially when the PG has had perhaps his best all around season. This has nothing to do with my ego. I have none regarding this stuff. I want the Knicks to win and if I am wrong on every point and they win a title, I'll be thrilled to be wrong. But I'm not. Talk to me when you can prove that i am.


So you really want to tell me that you have not stated the Eddy Curry is essentially the same player as last year but just plays more as a result of Isiah Thomas force-feeding him minutes? Okay. Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

As for Isiah rebuilding after what you percieve as a "failed" attempt, is your own prerogative. Isiah's retooling efforts seemed to have been working, up until the point that Allan Houston (one of the league's best players) ended up having an injury that forced him to retire. I think that ultimately did forced him to go younger. I felt that he has rebuilt but on several occassions, you felt Isiah has done the direct opposite by adding to the payroll. Knowing that, what exactly is your case because it seems to be inconsistent.

I find it interesting how our team is "deeper" than last year when we actually bought out the contracts of veterans Jalen Rose and Maurice Taylor. Like I said, the injuries this year have meant alot more than they did last year, especially with Richardson being a nonfactor anyway last year.

As for Kiki, I'll give you the fact that he changed the Nuggets rather fast. I won't say that he did a particularly stellar job with the Nuggets. There's a reason the Nuggets chose not to resign Kiki. During is tenure there, he made some HUGE mistakes that ultimately were swept under the rug after he accidently stumbled onto Carmelo Anthony. I say accidently because Kiki had actually intended on drafting Darko Milicic who he viewed as the best player available in that 2003 draft; how wrong was he on that one? Had he not lucked out and had the Pistons take him ahead of the Nuggets, Denver probably would not be sitting in the situation they are in now. You would have been able to chalk that one up with Kiki's blunders which included signing Rodney White to a multi-year $6 million per year contract, draft Nikolay Tstisvishli no.4 in a draft that featured Amare Stoudemire, Caron Butler and tons of other talent better than that stiff; and signing Kenyon Martin to a max deal to essentially not play for the Nuggets at the cost of several first round draft picks and cap space. Chalk all that up with his inability to develop much of a bench or find an adequate 2 guard, and you could say that he did not do very much right in Denver.

As far as the Knicks, I never said we'd win a title presently constructed. I just believe that Isiah has done a solid job thus far considering the pieces he has had to work with. We are in a position now to honestly say that if we acquire one more difference maker, we'd be of consequence in the Eastern Conference. Hell, we managed to almost make the playoffs with all the injuries we had this year and disturbances. With a little more experience, this young team will surprise you.


P.S., the Clippers had Andre Miller, Lamar Odom, Elton Brand, Quentin Richardson, Chris Wilcox, Corey Maggette and a slew of other talented players gathered that was more talented than any imaginary Bulls team you could construct. Despite all that, they never managed to make the playoffs. Considering how a team like Indiana did not manage to make the playoffs this year with a star studded cast of veterans, even the time you say may have not given the Bulls a playoff berth.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> You also might want to take a peek at the Bulls roster from 2002-2003 Brad Miller, Curry, our own JC, Jay Williams, PLUS they could have still had Brand, and Artest. They just ran out of patience. *I would trade our whole team for this:
> *
> Curry/Miller
> Brand/ Voskul
> ...





> They needed a better coach than Floyd, and more patience. Again, these are facts proven over time. Brand=star, Artest=star, Miller= solid starter, Curry= solid 2nd option, JC= starter...*looks like a solid core to me.*


With basketball knowledge like that, how can anyone argue against it.


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## max6216 (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: Kidding, right alphaorange?*



TwinkieFoot said:


> Correction, it took Isiah 2 years to gather the assets necessary to successfully acquire the young players he needed to rebuild with ie Mohammed for David Lee and Mardy Collins; Tim Thomas for Eddy Curry; Antonio Davis for Renaldo Balkman, etc. As I mentioned earlier, we were in such a bad situation that we had to go through unconvential means to eventually get to this position to rebuild.
> 
> Too often, people take things for it's surface value. What are the characteristics of a rebuilding team? Trading of older players, signing of young players and drafting of young players. All of these things are characteristic of our team isn't it? That is because we are rebuilding. Note for yourself, I NEVER SAID WE HAVE "REBUILT" BUT ARE "REBUILDING," WHICH IS THE PROCESS OF GETTING TO THE POINT OF BEING REBUILT. GET IT RIGHT.
> 
> ...


i have to disagree on the bulls part they did find there carmelo.his name was elton.brand and for some reason jerry krause did not think brand and curry could play together they would clog up the post.so he dumped brand for chandler.


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## AFunk4Life (Jan 10, 2003)

Ok I posted a thread on here when the Knicks were eliminated from Playoff contention. I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HAPPENED TO IT. Mod can you please clarify. It was a clean post and I was venting. Isiah Thomas needs to be shown the door PERIOD! I am sorry, but at this point as a Knicks' supporter I am extremely fed up and sick of having this sorry excuse for a GM and coach on board. I don't care if Layden messed the franchise up by signing guys to long term overpriced deals (Allan Houston, etc.). Dolan must have a few screws loose to have RESIGNED Isiah Thomas. Ok, the Knicks won a few more games this year, but still failed to make the playoffs in a joke of an Eastern Conference which only has two legitimate contenders IMO, Miami and Detroit. And why is it that the Knicks cannot even manage to beat the freaking Nets *ONCE* this season to my recollection???? Give me a break! Why on Earth is Isiah still employed in the NBA at all? My brother Jeremy once said this, and while it was intended to be a joke and was funny it holds some actual merit. He said "Isiah Thomas should not be the GM of a _fantasy_ basketball team much less the GM of the New York Knicks." At this point, he makes a solid arguement. I'm sorry, but since when is a group of individuals that do not play as a team considered acceptable on an NBA court. Show me a basketball team that acts as a bunch of individuals worried more about their contracts and stats than the team and I will show you a bunch of losers. And that is what Isiah Thomas has shown. He is a loser. Plain and simple. When was the last time the Knicks were in the Playoffs? I can't even recall becuase its been so long. Now that is truly *sad*.


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## Cager (Jun 13, 2002)

I honestly cannot fathom how anyone can say the Knicks are rebuilt. There is certainly talent on the team but they have way too much duplication of talent. How different really is Francis, Marbury and Crawford ? How about Balkman and Jeffries ? Curry is a great one dimensional player, Lee is an excellent rebounder and hustle man. Collins and Frye are big question marks. Nate doesn't fill any need on the team. Q is unreliable due to injuries.

So , you really have no true PG, you have only 2 people usually on the court at the same time that want to play defense and no offense from your 3 position. If that is being rebuit then I live on another planet. The rebuilding process has started but a good GM is needed to complete the process. Isiah can draft ( although the issue with Balkman remains as to when he was picked) but he is terrible with free agenst ( James and Jeffries the last two years) and I wouldn't want him trading players if I was the owner. 

He has been able to develop some chemistry with his team and it is obviuos they like playing for him. However I do question his clock management but maybe that is more of a problem with the key players who seem to fairly consistently screw up at the end of games even when they have been playing well. Crawford, Marbury and Francis have done that more than a few times this year.

PLEASE NY . DON'T BE SATISFIED WITH THE KNICKS. YOU DESERVE BETTER THAN WHAT YOU ARE GETTING


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Kidding, right alphaorange?*



max6216 said:


> i have to disagree on the bulls part they did find there carmelo.his name was elton.brand and for some reason jerry krause did not think brand and curry could play together they would clog up the post.so he dumped brand for chandler.


not entirely true , brand and his agent david falk let krause know elton couldn't take the losing and was not going to resign...when you add that nugget the deal makes more sense.


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

*Edit*

*off topic*


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

Cager said:


> I honestly cannot fathom how anyone can say the Knicks are rebuilt. There is certainly talent on the team but they have way too much duplication of talent. How different really is Francis, Marbury and Crawford ? How about Balkman and Jeffries ? Curry is a great one dimensional player, Lee is an excellent rebounder and hustle man. Collins and Frye are big question marks. Nate doesn't fill any need on the team. Q is unreliable due to injuries.
> 
> So , you really have no true PG, you have only 2 people usually on the court at the same time that want to play defense and no offense from your 3 position. If that is being rebuit then I live on another planet. The rebuilding process has started but a good GM is needed to complete the process. Isiah can draft ( although the issue with Balkman remains as to when he was picked) but he is terrible with free agenst ( James and Jeffries the last two years) and I wouldn't want him trading players if I was the owner.
> 
> ...


*Here is something from members on another Knick board about Isiah:* 

Isiah has done a great job in NY all things considered. He has made three huge mistakes since coming here but has covered them nicely with smart draft picks and trades.

3 Huges Mistakes

1) Should have held out for protection on the Curry trade on the lottery picks.
2) The Francis trade.
3) Hiring Larry Brown 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, those are just 3 mistakes, not his only ones. The Jerome James signing was a big mistake, especially at the money. The Jeffries signing was a big mistake, then his insistence on Jeffries starting was another mistake. If he was going to allow Frye to wallow on the bench, and only feature Curry down low it was a HUGE mistake not to move Frye for Artest last year. HUGE. And that mistake compounds the pick this year. I think you all over rate Balkman, but not trading down to take him was another mistake. Agreeing to the Francis/Ariza trade, big mistake. Letting Butler walk for as little money as he got, another mistake. Honestly, the Crawford signing was a waste too. He's a zero impact player, who could have had his numbers replaced by a lot of cheaper guards, who are better defenders. Really, going after Jeffries and Balkman without getting a pure shooter, another mistake. Lee was certainly a nice pick, and he is a good bench player. He isn't going to be a starter in this league. Frye could have been moved when his stock was high for an asset that would have helped you guys, but he wasn't. That right there makes no sense to me. He had to know what his plans for the offense were. It's obvious he was going to try to showcase Curry. Artest would have really fit in nicely on the Knicks. Not sure how long he'd stay sane, but that wasn't a worry with Sprewell, so, give it a shot . The Nate pick was nothing. He's a 5ft 8 inch scoring guard. There are tons of those on many playgrounds. He's not a long term asset for any team. 
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WOW! I have to agree that Isiah Decision-Making has been horrible since the day of his hiring. I was hoping that Isiah Thomas Coaching ability would have madeup for at least half of his G.M. mistakes, but it didnt. 

David lee is a Starter! he is a playbook starter that adds athletic-hustle to his Role as a starter. Lee talents are being coached wrong on this Knick team. Nate Robinson has showed time after time that he is a good peremeter shooter and should've been set up in the playbook for some "Pick -N-Shoot" plays for extra scoring. This season the best pair of Knicks Guards as a Backcourt Tandem was Nate & Crawford.


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

step said:


> With basketball knowledge like that, how can anyone argue against it.


I'd take a frontline of B.Miller Brand Artest for this team, and would gladly be willing to give up a lot for it to happen. That's a great balanced frontcourt. Hell we'd win games with a backcourt of Jamal and Nate if we had THAT frontcourt. E.Curry as the 6th man would also be amazing.


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