# Feel Sorry for Phoenix



## koberules24 (Nov 12, 2006)

It's kind of sad really. Everybody in the league hates the Lakers but at the same time want to be just like them (kind of like people's general opinion of L.A.). Watching the press conference in Phoenix right now I broke out laughing hearing Mike D'Antoni compare Shaq to Kareem in his later years (with Kareem being 40 and still putting up numbers and you know the Lakers actully winning championships). They hate us so much in Phoenix (and seemingly everywhere else) that they design their major boulevards after the signature ones in Los Angeles that are paraded with palm trees that are not even indigenous to the United States. 

Ric Bucher (misinformed "insider") says that this will be Shaq vs. Jerry Buss. That actually may not be that bad of match up in the paint.


----------



## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

koberules24 said:


> It's kind of sad really. Everybody in the league hates the Lakers but at the same time want to be just like them (kind of like people's general opinion of L.A.). Watching the press conference in Phoenix right now I broke out laughing hearing Mike D'Antoni compare Shaq to Kareem in his later years (with Kareem being 40 and still putting up numbers and you know the Lakers actully winning championships). They hate us so much in Phoenix (and seemingly everywhere else) that they design their major boulevards after the signature ones in Los Angeles that are paraded with palm trees that are never even indigenous to the United States).
> 
> Ric Bucher (misinformed "insider") says that this will be Shaq vs. Jerry Buss. That actually may not be that bad of match up in the paint.


:lol: I don't think Shaq could even elevate over the Dr. at this point in his career. I can't stand the Suns and could never bring myself to actually feel sorry for them, unless of course maybe they had Kwame Brown on their roster...


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

I'll never feel sorry for Phoenix, even in a joking way. **** them.


----------



## koberules24 (Nov 12, 2006)

Basel57 said:


> I'll never feel sorry for Phoenix, even in a joking way. **** them.


No, no that's not how you combat smugness. TRUST ME I GREW UP IN THE BAY AREA. All you have to do is show them how little they are by merely feeling sorry them. Any time a Giants fan tried to give crap I just remembered why they're so angry to begin with. *WE HAVE EVERYTHING IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA.* Southern Californians are spoiled. We're a quick drive from the beach, we have PERFECT weather year-round and the thing that pisses people off the most is that we flat out don't care or respond to their angry gestures. Why do you think every other fanbase chants "BEAT L.A.!" at will? People in the Bay Area think there's this GREAT RIVALRY between Southern Calfornians and "Northern" (they're actually in Central California-saying "Northern" just makes them feel more sophisticated) Californians even though people down here have no idea one's going on. People in Phoenix have nothing else BUT the Lakers to worry about. The Lakers have the Celtics, and the Spurs to worry about. The Suns are an afterthought and this trade just proves how desperate they are NOT TO WIN BUT JUST TO HAVE A RIVALRY WITH THE LAKERS AND HAVE A REASON TO HATE US.

Like I said.......just feel sorry for them.


----------



## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

koberules24 said:


> No, no that's not how you combat smugness. TRUST ME I GREW UP IN THE BAY AREA. All you have to do is show them how little they are by merely feeling sorry them. Any time a Giants fan tried to give crap I just remembered why they're so angry to begin with. *WE HAVE EVERYTHING IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA.* Southern Californians are spoiled. We're a quick drive from the beach, we have PERFECT weather year-round and the thing that pisses people off the most is that we flat out don't care or respond to their angry gestures. Why do you think every other fanbase chants "BEAT L.A.!" at will? People in the Bay Area think there's this GREAT RIVALRY between Southern Calfornians and "Northern" (they're actually in Central California-saying "Northern" just makes them feel more sophisticated) Californians even though people down here have no idea one's going on. People in Phoenix have nothing else BUT the Lakers to worry about. The Lakers have the Celtics, and the Spurs to worry about. The Suns are an afterthought and this trade just proves how desperate they are NOT TO WIN BUT JUST TO HAVE A RIVALRY WITH THE LAKERS AND HAVE A REASON TO HATE US.
> 
> Like I said.......just feel sorry for them.


Oh man, please don't tell me I can't hate the Giants! That's one LA rivalry where I believe the hatred is nearly mutual. At least it is on my part.


----------



## onelakerfan (Nov 11, 2004)

koberules24 said:


> It's kind of sad really. Everybody in the league hates the Lakers but at the same time want to be just like them (kind of like people's general opinion of L.A.). Watching the press conference in Phoenix right now I broke out laughing hearing Mike D'Antoni compare Shaq to Kareem in his later years (with Kareem being 40 and still putting up numbers and you know the Lakers actully winning championships). They hate us so much in Phoenix (and seemingly everywhere else) that they design their major boulevards after the signature ones in Los Angeles that are paraded with palm trees that are never even indigenous to the United States.
> 
> Ric Bucher (misinformed "insider") says that this will be Shaq vs. Jerry Buss. That actually may not be that bad of match up in the paint.


Why, i think they will be okay and i will say this that they are better with shaq


----------



## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

onelakerfan said:


> Why, i think they will be okay and i will say this that they are better with shaq


Keyword there is "with". He has been injured all season this year, and I see no way he can possibly stay healthy during the entire playoff run.

I imagine he will start becoming not "injured" all of a sudden, b/c his team is good, but... he still should be banged up for the rest of the season. He always has nagging injuries now.


----------



## onelakerfan (Nov 11, 2004)

Eternal said:


> Keyword there is "with". He has been injured all season this year, and I see no way he can possibly stay healthy during the entire playoff run.
> 
> I imagine he will start becoming not "injured" all of a sudden, b/c his team is good, but... he still should be banged up for the rest of the season. He always has nagging injuries now.


you said it yourself, he will have a Miraculous recovery


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

I just feel dirty that four of my ten favorite players in the league play for Phoenix and San Antonio.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

BTW to the thread starter, check out Kareem's numbers his last 5 years or so and compare them to Shaq this year.


----------



## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Basel57 said:


> I'll never feel sorry for Phoenix, even in a joking way. **** them.


How sweet.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Dissonance19 said:


> How sweet.


I know.


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

Dissonance19 said:


> How sweet.


Keep it up and you will receive an infraction. Baiting is not allowed on our forum, this is your last warning.


----------



## koberules24 (Nov 12, 2006)

Jamel Irief said:


> BTW to the thread starter, check out Kareem's numbers his last 5 years or so and compare them to Shaq this year.



Okay, you just made my point.


----------



## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

I don't know if I read it wrong, but Koberules24, are you suggesting the Suns traded for Shaquile just so they could have a better rivalry with the Lakers?

That's kind of absurd.


----------



## koberules24 (Nov 12, 2006)

Dr. Seuss said:


> I don't know if I read it wrong, but Koberules24, are you suggesting the Suns traded for Shaquile just so they could have a better rivalry with the Lakers?
> 
> That's kind of absurd.



_Yeah__, it's almost as absurd as the trade._


----------



## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

koberules24 said:


> _Yeah__, it's almost as absurd as the trade._


They didn't acquire Shaq to have a better rivalry with anyone. The acquired Shaq to respond to the lakers trade sure, but increasing the rivalry certainly wasn't their intention. We haven't beat them in a playoff series so there is no rivalry, and wont be anything but an emotionally charged game until we do.


----------



## Resume (Jul 17, 2007)

How sweat.


----------



## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

Resume said:


> How sweat.


What? That doesnt even make sense.


----------



## koberules24 (Nov 12, 2006)

Cris said:


> They didn't acquire Shaq to have a better rivalry with anyone. The acquired Shaq to respond to the lakers trade sure, but increasing the rivalry certainly wasn't their intention. We haven't beat them in a playoff series so there is no rivalry, and wont be anything but an emotionally charged game until we do.


Well yeah, they sure as **** didn't acquire Shaq b/c he's such a great fit so maybe losing was on their minds.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Resume said:


> How sweat.


----------



## Rentaponcho (Jun 30, 2006)

look i keeo reading all these articles on ESPN and SI, and a bunch of "experts" are loving or trying to love the trade. they are trying to justify the trade by saying oh all shaq has to do is rebound outlet it nash he dishes to stoudamire and boom in 5 seconds the suns just scored 2 points and shaq is still back waiting for another rebound or block shot. 

it disgust me. shaq is done. done. done. done. lets see the miami heat are 9-37....9-37!!!! come on shaq cant u lead ur team to at least 10 wins in 46 games!! I get sick of shaq always stating he will turn things around, u r lazy, slow and fat, oh and did i mention ur injury prone...uve already missed 15 games. so thank you phoneix suns for helping the lakers. btw Steve Kerr for GM of the year for pulling the trigger for the worst trade of all time.


----------



## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

koberules24 said:


> Well yeah, they sure as **** didn't acquire Shaq b/c he's such a great fit so maybe losing was on their minds.


Well you certainly don't need 5 people running the fast break. They will make it work, and I have a feeling they will be just as good with Shaq as they were with Marion.

I am sure this is just going to give Shaq a jump start of motivation again.


----------



## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

I think the Shaq trade will hurt Amare, who's used to having the middle of the paint to himself to create offensive opportunities. Of course they'll play at a slower tempo its insane not to think it won't, Marion got them easy uncontested buckets and all the long rebounds.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

jazzy1 said:


> I think the Shaq trade will hurt Amare, who's used to having the middle of the paint to himself to create offensive opportunities. Of course they'll play at a slower tempo its insane not to think it won't, Marion got them easy uncontested buckets and all the long rebounds.


All you need for a fast break is 3 players. It's not like opposing centers are the ones sprinting on D. Nash will still beat his man, Amare will still beat his man, so will Hill and Barbosa. The reason the suns lose games is because people like Yao, Bynum and even Al Jefferson score on them like they are playing in the YMCA. That's not going to happen anymore. I would not be surprised if Shaq emerges as the second best center in the west in the playoffs.


----------



## Rentaponcho (Jun 30, 2006)

Jamel Irief said:


> All you need for a fast break is 3 players. It's not like opposing centers are the ones sprinting on D. Nash will still beat his man, Amare will still beat his man, so will Hill and Barbosa. The reason the suns lose games is because people like Yao, Bynum and even Al Jefferson score on them like they are playing in the YMCA. That's not going to happen anymore. I would not be surprised if Shaq emerges as the second best center in the west in the playoffs.


umm lets see the miami heat are 9-38 they have shaq and wade. the miami heat are 9-38 that is thee worst record in the NBA. Shaq is not going to add a "wall" he is going to get in foul trouble, cant make free throws and the only 2 lagit options now are amare and nash. the suns killed their team.


----------



## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

Judging Shaq based on the Heat record alone is worthless. There supporting cast is terrible, not to mention Wade and Shaq have missed a combined 24 games. 

The suns now have 6 players averaging 10 plus points again. The one thing the suns can do is score, they will have no trouble with that.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Rentaponcho said:


> umm lets see the miami heat are 9-38 they have shaq and wade. the miami heat are 9-38 that is thee worst record in the NBA. Shaq is not going to add a "wall" he is going to get in foul trouble, cant make free throws and the only 2 lagit options now are amare and nash. the suns killed their team.


Throw that record out the window.

So the Suns would be fools for trading Barbosa for Wade? The heat are 9-38 with Wade and Shaq.


----------



## Rentaponcho (Jun 30, 2006)

Jamel Irief said:


> Throw that record out the window.
> 
> So the Suns would be fools for trading Barbosa for Wade? The heat are 9-38 with Wade and Shaq.


throw the record out the window?!?! their record shows how much shaq is over the hill. u cant ignore THE WORST RECORD IN THE NBA.If Shaq was at least 50 percent of his own self he could take any team to a better record that that. Sure the suns will probably win their first two games with shaq. But then they start playing tough teams and they are going to lose, i have no doubt. And when that happens Shaq will find a way to get hurt and disappear.


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

I feel bad for Phoenix too. I want to beat them at their best. I dont want any excuses like "Well we lost because we made a bad trade"


Beating them at their absolute best is such a sweet redemption.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Rentaponcho said:


> throw the record out the window?!?! their record shows how much shaq is over the hill. u cant ignore THE WORST RECORD IN THE NBA.If Shaq was at least 50 percent of his own self he could take any team to a better record that that. Sure the suns will probably win their first two games with shaq. But then they start playing tough teams and they are going to lose, i have no doubt. And when that happens Shaq will find a way to get hurt and disappear.


Does the record show that Wade is over the hill??!??!

How much better will the record be with Marion and Banks? 

If you say not much than how can you say it's a horrible trade?


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

> Well you certainly don't need 5 people running the fast break. They will make it work, and I have a feeling they will be just as good with Shaq as they were with Marion.
> 
> I am sure this is just going to give Shaq a jump start of motivation again.


People say this but im still wary about the Suns' situation. They epitomized the run and gun game and Marion was the definite X-Factor of that offense, now all of a sudden they are going to scratch that in mid season form and make noticeable adjustments? Its not like Shaq's game as of this point can blend in at any team, much more a running one.




I think people will start to realize how important Marion was in that team. He did a whole lot of things that made that system much more dangerous. He was so good moving without the ball, he'll look for that lob, sneak up for a putback, and rebounded better at anyone in his size. He has a very good shooting range and versatility on defense is just icing on cake.



Phoenix will be a different team, no doubt. But I cant really think of them being better or the same when the team's arguably second best player is traded for chopped liver.



Shaq's just way too slow. He lost a lot of mobility and lift. I cant remember the last time Shaq actually dominated a game. He'll give you that 14 and 8 sure, but their hardly noteworthy. The only thing I see changing or benefiting them is that Amare will have less responsibility guarding the paint.


----------



## farzadkavari (Oct 13, 2004)

I think Suns will suck and Lakers will beat the crap out of them in the first round and Kobe will finally get his revenge from Shaq, I can't wait...


----------



## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

even in the half court, this team could be dangerous now, let alone on the break. this calls for a wait and see . . .


----------



## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Gosh man I'm am telling you guys.....This Suns trade is going to bite us in the ***. And I dno't care if I'm wrong because I hope I'm wrong, but I can't fight it; Shaq is going to do wonders for this team in the playoffs so we better hope we do not play them in the payoffs.


----------



## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

Jamel Irief; said:


> I just feel dirty that four of my ten favorite players in the league play for Phoenix and San Antonio.


it's our punishment for being old.


----------



## onelakerfan (Nov 11, 2004)

don't feel sorry at all


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

The One said:


> Gosh man I'm am telling you guys.....This Suns trade is going to bite us in the ***. And I dno't care if I'm wrong because I hope I'm wrong, but I can't fight it; Shaq is going to do wonders for this team in the playoffs so we better hope we do not play them in the payoffs.


Meh. Had they kept Marion then added Shaq ...maybe. Spurs is the only team that scares me. They've been through thick and thin. They fully know each others strength and weaknesses. Very unselfish and great chemistry. Something the Lakers are just starting to learn.



Mavs too. Only because when LA plays them at their turf, they get a lot of calls in their favor. I hate to look at it that way, but thats the truth. Cuban is there watching up close and peronal for a reason.


----------



## onelakerfan (Nov 11, 2004)

The One said:


> Gosh man I'm am telling you guys.....This Suns trade is going to bite us in the ***. And I dno't care if I'm wrong because I hope I'm wrong, but I can't fight it; Shaq is going to do wonders for this team in the playoffs so we better hope we do not play them in the payoffs.


agree


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

You don't need to know the Heat's record to know Shaq is well over the hill; just watch games.


----------



## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Eternal said:


> Keyword there is "with". He has been injured all season this year, and I see no way he can possibly stay healthy during the entire playoff run.
> 
> I imagine he will start becoming not "injured" all of a sudden, b/c his team is good, but... he still should be banged up for the rest of the season. He always has nagging injuries now.


Well I don't believe that injury he's had the last 2 weeks (from which he appears to have miraculously recovered from) was real at all..



Rentaponcho said:


> umm lets see the miami heat are 9-38 they have shaq and wade. the miami heat are 9-38 that is thee worst record in the NBA. Shaq is not going to add a "wall" he is going to get in foul trouble, cant make free throws and the only 2 lagit options now are amare and nash. the suns killed their team.


The only games you can use to judge Shaq from is about the first 10 games Shaq played. Since then he's had his minutes reduced, been in foul trouble (which has often related to controversial calls), rested games or been injured. Also, Wade's missed a good 10 or so games aswell, and the rest of the "supporting cast" is a joke.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

EHL said:


> You don't need to know the Heat's record to know Shaq is well over the hill; just watch games.


I did. Just because he's not the MDE doesn't mean he's not still good.


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

Had anyone noticed that Shaq was in foul trouble nearly every game? Now think about how bad it's going to be backing up Nash's defense against dribble penetration. Come back to reality people. And if he does miraculously return to form, it will just show that he is a piece of **** for quitting on Miami. Milking injuries, etc. The usual...


----------



## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

not necessarily, they already planted that "phoenix has the best medical staff in the NBA" seed.


----------



## Rentaponcho (Jun 30, 2006)

Bartholomew Hunt said:


> Had anyone noticed that Shaq was in foul trouble nearly every game? Now think about how bad it's going to be backing up Nash's defense against dribble penetration. Come back to reality people. And if he does miraculously return to form, it will just show that he is a piece of **** for quitting on Miami. Milking injuries, etc. The usual...


exactly. 


shaq is done. terrible trade for suns. great for the Lakers and the rest of the NBA ESP. the Heat.


----------



## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

Rentaponcho said:


> exactly.
> 
> 
> shaq is done. terrible trade for suns. great for the Lakers and the rest of the NBA ESP. the Heat.


I hope you are right. 

I cant see how this betters the Suns really, but in the back of my mind, I hear this little voice saying, "Shaq is a different player in the playoffs"


----------



## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

KDOS said:


> People say this but im still wary about the Suns' situation. They epitomized the run and gun game and Marion was the definite X-Factor of that offense, now all of a sudden they are going to scratch that in mid season form and make noticeable adjustments? Its not like Shaq's game as of this point can blend in at any team, much more a running one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah. this is exactly how I feel about the Heat-Suns trade. I wonder ho D'Antoni really feels about this trade. As a coach I know everyone would love to have Marion. Even phil Jackson wanted to trade Kobe for him a couple of years back.


Shawn rarely does anything wrong in the court, same cannot be said for Shaq nowadays.


----------



## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

Bartholomew Hunt said:


> Had anyone noticed that Shaq was in foul trouble nearly every game? Now think about how bad it's going to be backing up Nash's defense against dribble penetration. Come back to reality people. And if he does miraculously return to form, it will just show that he is a piece of **** for quitting on Miami. Milking injuries, etc. The usual...


Also, some people worry about Shaq guarding Bynum or maybe Pau. When I was watching him in Miami, he was having a terrible time guarding the pick and roll, just absolutely atrocious. I think Kobe and Pau runs a very good P&R play, better yet I think Pau is much effective because he has range. And you made a good point with Shaq getting into foul trouble. Like KDOS said, he lost a lof of lift and mobility which hurt his ability to guard quicker and younger players. His footwork is so terrible.


----------



## Sean (Jun 7, 2002)

February 7th, 2008; By Roland Lazenby

Twin Towers For The Lakers? Head Scratching For The Suns?

Steve Kerr appears to be a man intrigued by contrasts.

As general manager of the Phoenix Suns, Kerr has a garage filled with Ferraris to which he’s just added a Mack truck of a Diesel, rumbling menacingly and belching dark smoke.

Add Tex Winter to the list of top basketball people scratching their heads at the move. “I saw it, I thought, ‘That ain’t gonna work,’” Winter admitted. “I don’t even know if Shaq’s ever gonna play another game.”

That’s how far O’Neal’s image has fallen this season after the Miami Heat has absorbed loss after loss and the Diesel has revealed a dramatic decline in his effectiveness, not to mention long absences due to nagging injuries. “I’m surprised Kerr would do that,” Winter said of the Suns’ trading Shawn Marion this week for Shaq. “It’s a strange trade. Shaq sure misses a lot of games. He’s not a very good defensive rebounder, or offensive rebounder for that matter. He does rebound his own misses a lot.”Did the Suns make the move because they were desperate to take advantage of a team that has run through impressive regular seasons only to fall short in the playoffs?

“I don’t know if they should be desperate,” Winter said. “They’re leading the division. They were playing pretty darn well with the people they had.”

more in link...
http://www.sportshubla.com/2008/02/07/twin-towers-for-the-lakers-head-scratching-for-the-suns/


----------



## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

btw, there's some beef between shaq and tex i think... in phil's book, apparently shaq told him to STFU


----------



## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

elcap15 said:


> I hope you are right.
> 
> I cant see how this betters the Suns really, but in the back of my mind, I hear this little voice saying, "Shaq is a different player in the playoffs"


He's been anything but that the past few playoff appearances though. He just seems all talk now, but of course his motivation may take over and he'll be good again for a year.


----------



## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

Eternal said:


> He's been anything but that the past few playoff appearances though. He just seems all talk now, but of course his motivation may take over and he'll be good again for a year.


I know he hasnt really shined too much in the post season for the past couple of years, but what if he can this year? That is what scares me.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Eric Dampier
Fabricio Olberto
Tyson Chandler
Andrew Bynum
Marcus Camby
Joel Pryzbilla
Mehmet Okur
Andris Beidrins

Are these guys all <b>FAR</b> superior to Shaq or something? A lot of people are letting Shaq's decrease in output cloud their judgement. If say Dampier was having the year Shaq is everyone would be talking about how well he is playing and saying the Mavs were favorites.


Oh and Marion has no balls and chokes in the playoffs.


----------



## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

AB,Camby and Chandler are not *FAR* superior but they are miles ahead better than Shaq Monday thru Sunday, 24/7. Also why pick Oberto,Pryzbilla,Okur,Dampier and Biedrins? Those guys never played at a star level to begin with.




Oh LOL at Marion not having balls and chokes in the playoffs. Check his numbers. Watch previous games. He's been avery consistent performer for the Suns.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

TakaraJinRoh said:


> AB,Camby and Chandler are not *FAR* superior but they are miles ahead better than Shaq Monday thru Sunday, 24/7. Also why pick Oberto,Pryzbilla,Okur,Dampier and Biedrins? Those guys never played at a star level to begin with.


The centers I listed are the centers Shaq will face in the playoffs. I didn't put Yao because I think Shaq has zero chance of outplaying him. 

I would not be shocked to see him outplay any of those other players in a seven game series.



> Oh LOL at Marion not having balls and chokes in the playoffs. Check his numbers. Watch previous games. He's been avery consistent performer for the Suns.


Maybe you should LOL your way to the stat sheet then. Marion's scoring and rebounding decrease in the playoffs every year year for the suns.


----------



## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

dont forgot shaqs going to "land of the shooters" it's going to make a big difference.

i wouldnt be surprised if shaq came out averaging atless 4 assist per game just kicking it out to 40+% 3 pt shooters like hill, raja, and barbosa.


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Eric Dampier
> Fabricio Olberto
> Tyson Chandler
> Andrew Bynum
> ...


I would trust nearly every one of those players to defend the paint and box out moreso than Shaq, which is what is going to matter in the playoffs. His footwork defensively is just downright bad now. In the past, he was able to get by on freakish physical skills. Now he doesn't recover in time and barrels into everybody, which is why Shaq is a walking foul out now. This is going to be even more compounded when you factor in Nash's horrid defense on the perimeter. If Shaq makes a big impact offensively, it means the Suns are playing halfcourt slow down ball which works right into our favor. Remember Nash with the Mavericks? He didn't magically pull a Barry Bonds and drastically improve his game with the Suns. The system fits him better. Nash is still a great PG in the halfcourt set, but not MVP worthy. I would not hesitate in sticking Bynum on Shaq 1 on 1 and covering the shooters. Yes, he may start strongly, but you can bet he will wear himself down creating offense, having to play defense against to quality bigs, and playing in the Suns tempo. Who do you think the first big down court for the Suns is going to be? Amare. A fundamental of a big in transition is to park himself in the lane and seal for position. Where does that leave Shaq to go? I'm sorry, but this is a bad fit anyway you slice. If I'm wrong, I will gladly eat the crow served up.


----------



## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

Jamel Irief said:


> Maybe you should LOL your way to the stat sheet then. Marion's scoring and rebounding decrease in the playoffs every year year for the suns.


Im not going to argue who doesnt know what they are talking about. But since you insist in Marion choking due to a very very low scoring and rebounding numbers ill lay down the stats for you.

05-06 Regular season stats

*21.4 ppg 11.8 rpg*

05-06 Playoff stats

*20.6 ppg 11.7 rpg*

-0.8 ppg -0.1 rpg difference

06-07 Reg Season

*17.5 ppg 9.8 rpg*

06-07 Playoff stats

*16.9 ppg 10.4 rpg*

Marion scored a whopping _0.6 pts less _a game but rebounded a hair better hitting 10.4.



Do you even know how absurd it is to view a drop of less than a pt a game and consider it as _choking_? 



Also, anyone who values Marion than Shaq as of right now is not in the right state of mind.


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> I did. Just because he's not the MDE doesn't mean he's not still good.


He wasn't brought there for O, the Suns are far and away the #1 offensive team in the league. He was brought there for D, so whatever his ppg output is, is irrelevant. Dampier and especially guys like Bierdrins are very mobile defensively. Shaq on the other hand can't guard anyone with any agility because he has no lateral speed anymore, especially on pick and rolls which he didn't defend well in his absolute _prime_ at 28 years of age. Nowadays he'll get roasted. He also fouls like crazy (4 fouls per 28.5 minutes), doesn't get the same calls he used to on O (because he uses strength much more so than quickness these days). 

Like I said; you just watch the guy and it's clear as day he's done.


----------



## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

dannyM said:


> dont forgot shaqs going to "land of the shooters" it's going to make a big difference.
> 
> i wouldnt be surprised if shaq came out averaging atless 4 assist per game just kicking it out to 40+% 3 pt shooters like hill, raja, and barbosa.


Do you really believe with pure conviction that Shaq will get the same attention like he did 3 years ago?


I mean seriously.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

TakaraJinRoh said:


> Im not going to argue who doesnt know what they are talking about. But since you insist in Marion choking due to a very very low scoring and rebounding numbers ill lay down the stats for you.
> 
> 05-06 Regular season stats
> 
> ...


So his numbers did go down? Thanks. That's all I said. BTW you forgot 04-05.

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that he chokes due to low scoring and rebounding numbers. Just ask Suns fans how they feel about his playoff performances. Or look at the fact that Lamar has averaged around 22 points a game as a Laker in the playoffs with Marion the non-choker on him.

Oh and Shaq's numbers increase in the playoffs.

Next time don't be rude when you are wrong.


----------



## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

Jamel Irief said:


> So his numbers did go down? Thanks.


Yeah. You do that and shut it before you dig that hole deeper.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

TakaraJinRoh said:


> Yeah. You do that and shut it before you dig that hole deeper.


Strike out at the bar last night or something? all you did was post some stats that backed up what I said.


----------



## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

Jamel Irief said:


> Strike out at the bar last night or something? all you did was post some stats that backed up what I said.


Lol. That what? 0.6 pts less a game is considered choking?


Man whatever bro. This aint worth our time. If you think those constitutes a major drop to call it a choke, then more power to you.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

TakaraJinRoh said:


> Lol. That what? 0.6 pts less a game is considered choking?
> 
> 
> Man whatever bro. This aint worth our time. If you think those constitutes a major drop to call it a choke, then more power to you.


Nah that's a drop in numbers. You can choke or play well regardless of stats.

If all you are going to do is post numbers a 6 year old can look up and I accessed before I even posted in the thread than it really isn't worth discussing.

When you want to talk basketball and not numbers get at me. Oh and with less hostility to.


----------



## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

Jamel Irief said:


> Nah that's a drop in numbers. You can choke or play well regardless of stats.
> 
> If all you are going to do is post numbers a 6 year old can look up and I accessed before I even posted in the thread than it really isn't worth discussing.
> 
> When you want to talk basketball and not numbers get at me. Oh and with less hostility to.


Says the guy who said Marion choked in the playoffs numbers wise? You got cornered and you cant find a way out. Ok So tell me how Marion choked. Missed a lot of wide open shots, mental lapse? Turnover machine? Cant defend? LOL. Im dying to know.


If numbers should'nt be a basis, why bring it up then?


Numbers or not. Marion did not choke the past 2 years. So get at me when you actually know what you're saying. Other than that, dont post make up analysis when you clearly dont have a clue what you're saying in the first place.


----------



## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

So lets talk basketball and not numbers since you pretty cant escape the fact that you just screwed up with your statement.


How did Marion choked? Im dying to know, All knowing moderator.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

TakaraJinRoh said:


> Says the guy who said Marion choked in the playoffs numbers wise? You got cornered and you cant find a way out. Ok So tell me how Marion choked. Missed a lot of wide open shots, mental lapse? Turnover machine? Cant defend? LOL. Im dying to know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


YOU brought up numbers!



> h LOL at Marion not having balls and chokes in the playoffs. Check his numbers.


That's what YOU said. 

All I said was that his numbers decreased, supporting what I said.

He doesn't step up when the Suns needed him to. Like in 05 when Bowen took him out of the series and Amare was killing Duncan. If Marion gives them anything they are in the series. Or how about in 06 and 07 when Lamar averaged 22 a game on him? I thought Marion was a defender? Or last year when Diaw and Amare were suspended?

Just talk to suns fans.


----------



## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

Jamel Irief said:


> YOU brought up numbers!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh man the IRONY. I actually rebuked your misleading claim by proving you were wrong. You cant really _not use numbers _in a field where statistics matter, now can you?



Jamel Irief said:


> He doesn't step up when the Suns needed him to. Like in 05 when Bowen took him out of the series and Amare was killing Duncan. If Marion gives them anything they are in the series. Or how about in 06 and 07 when Lamar averaged 22 a game on him? I thought Marion was a defender? Or last year when Diaw and Amare were suspended?
> 
> Just talk to suns fans.


Doesnt step up? He's been as consistent with his rebounding and scoring. His defensive presence is intact. Sure he may have some bad games, but so what every player does, rest assured he did show up when it matters albeit some of his teammates doesnt.



NO one can blame the Suns loss due to their pathetic display of defense on their most willing defender. Nash and company all deserves blame.



Odom dominated Marion so what? It was a mismtach to begin with. Suns was so thin inside without Amare. Its no wonder even Kwame Brown had his fair share of good games down low. You're not really putting all that on Marion...or are you? Would'nt be surprised if you do. You tend to disagree for the sake of it.


I dont need to talk to Suns fans. Every year I go to playoff threads and its a mix reaction. Majority does support and believe that the Suns as a whole choked (notice the Suns) not just Marion.


----------



## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

Jamel Irief said:


> Oh and Shaq's numbers increase in the playoffs.
> 
> Next time don't be rude when you are wrong.


Hilarity ensues at Ninja edit.


Ok, you keep implying that Shaq is better than Marion, and that Shaq will somehow turn his season around and mke the Suns a better team if it makes you feel better.


----------



## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

This just makes me sick overall. I know that shaq is going to ride on Nash and Amare's back all the way to the finals and they are going to give all the credit to Shaq.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Again his numbers DID decrease. How did you rebuke that by proving they barely decreased? You brought up numbers in the first place to somehow imply they proved anything. Stars numbers are supposed to increase in the playoffs. I would of been perfectly content not discussing numbers at all but you brought up something that only hurts your point.

His numbers not only went down, but he was outplayed by supposed inferior players and didn't step up when the team needed him to. How is that not choking?

I don't think Shaq is better than Marion at all. Shaq brings stuff they didn't already have though, so in that regard he improves the team. I think it's a lateral move at worst for this season at least.


----------



## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

The One said:


> This just makes me sick overall. I know that shaq is going to ride on Nash and Amare's back all the way to the finals and they are going to give all the credit to Shaq.


too bad they wont make it to the finals.

how do you feel now?


----------



## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

What's with the Shaq love in this thread? Sheesh. Dude is old, fat and hurt. 

The Suns really shouldn't even be on our radar. It's all about the Spurs.


----------



## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

Jamel Irief said:


> Again his numbers DID decrease. How did you rebuke that by proving they barely decreased? You brought up numbers in the first place to somehow imply they proved anything. Stars numbers are supposed to increase in the playoffs..


I rebuked it when I shoved factual proof of why Marion is not a choker? You forgot that? You keep saying he scored and rebounded less as if it was a huge drop that warrants a "choker" label on him. When in fact he rebounded better in one of the series. Stars numbers are supposed to increase in the post season you said? I dont think its necessary for every star's numbers to increase. Some plays a role that hampers their productivity number's wise, but that doesnt mean they are less effective. Some take a different approach. 


Point here all along is you boldly make assumptions that Marion perform's horribly in the playoffs. *You were so adamant that you even argued that a 0.6 - difference in points scored per game is a testament to your reasoning* (which you failed). How dense can some people's logic be? Marion was every bit of a player that he was in the regular season and in the post season. He's that guy who hustles,rebounds, scores on fastbreaks and takes advantage of that wide open shot. He did all that in the playoffs.He's not a savior. he's an X factor. Choking is when a player of a star magnitude shoots 6-24 and turns the ball over 7 times a game in a series. Its not rocket science.





Jamel Irief said:


> His numbers not only went down, but he was outplayed by supposed inferior players and didn't step up when the team needed him to. How is that not choking?


How is he outplayed if they both we're putting up similar stats? 

Also where did you get that info where Odom averaged* 22 pts a game *against the Suns? He was at 19 ppg the last 2 series if you want specifics ,so stop throwing numbers at the back of your mind. I also cant really consider it a suffocating performance especially when the Suns won the series. That offensive rebound tapped to Kurt thomas in game 6? Yeah...that was Marion btw.


----------



## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

dannyM said:


> too bad they wont make it to the finals.
> 
> how do you feel now?


:lol:


----------



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

shaquille is done as far as being an impact player. the heat wouldn't have moved him if he wasn't.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

TakaraJinRoh said:


> I rebuked it when I shoved factual proof of why Marion is not a choker? You forgot that? You keep saying he scored and rebounded less as if it was a huge drop that warrants a "choker" label on him. When in fact he rebounded better in one of the series. Stars numbers are supposed to increase in the post season you said? I dont think its necessary for every star's numbers to increase. Some plays a role that hampers their productivity number's wise, but that doesnt mean they are less effective. Some take a different approach.
> 
> 
> Point here all along is you boldly make assumptions that Marion perform's horribly in the playoffs. *You were so adamant that you even argued that a 0.6 - difference in points scored per game is a testament to your reasoning* (which you failed). How dense can some people's logic be? Marion was every bit of a player that he was in the regular season and in the post season. He's that guy who hustles,rebounds, scores on fastbreaks and takes advantage of that wide open shot. He did all that in the playoffs.He's not a savior. he's an X factor. Choking is when a player of a star magnitude shoots 6-24 and turns the ball over 7 times a game in a series. Its not rocket science.
> ...


I'm done. You somehow think that you shocked me with these stats when it's not like they weren't on some obscure website like NBA.com. I never said he had a DRAMATIC drop in numbers. I said his numbers went down... you rebuked that with "oh yeah! you're wrong! his numbers went down 0.6!!!!"  In each of the past three post seasons his scoring has dropped and in two of the three his rebounding did as well. That was never the basis of my argument but it seems like what you want to focus on. 

One thing you were right on is that never every star has their numbers increase in the post season depending on role. You're right, Marion's role is as a complimentry player. Which is why the Suns are at no great loss in losing him.


----------



## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

Don't want to decide with a person, but Marion is a choker. He consistently disappears when the Suns needed him most. (I.E. Spurs series everytime) 

He plays great against teams that don't key in on him, but when Spurs focus on him like he's a number one option, he gets evaporated. Only great series was when we played Mavs back in 04/05.


----------



## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

Dr. Seuss said:


> Don't want to decide with a person, but Marion is a choker. He consistently disappears when the Suns needed him most. (I.E. Spurs series everytime)
> 
> He plays great against teams that don't key in on him, but when Spurs focus on him like he's a number one option, he gets evaporated. Only great series was when we played Mavs back in 04/05.


I understand where you are coming from. But honestly Shaq hasn't showed up in the last few years.. 

I think anything is possible.. If Shaq really dedicates himself to getting into shape, maybe he could help the Suns. But from experience of watching him over the years, once the hype is over.. And the Suns start losing a few games (even early on, when it's still ok to loose) Shaq will start taking the heat from fans, and writers all around. Then he does his typical media speech, which starts pouting, and blaming others for not getting the ball enough, etc.

If Shaq dedicates himself to a good diet and exercise. Understands his role here is to be that part to get them over the edge, and not expect the ball to be passed to him every trip down. Then maybe he might work. At this point the Suns were not going to win anything with trying something new..

But to me still... I just feel like there has to be something better the Suns could have traded for before the break than Shaq.

But who knows, maybe you guys will get the title with Shaq leading and I'll eat crow.


----------



## ceejaynj (Oct 9, 2005)

My fantasy would be seeing the Lakers and Suns meet in the WCF...and see Kobe posterize Shaq (like he did Nash) in a Lakers victory. That should end all the Kobe-Shaq BS that keeps going around.


----------



## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

is kerr hinting that amare's gay?



> Said Kerr, "Amare respects him so much and needs him physically."


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-080209-10


----------



## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

what does that make richard jefferson and luke walton?


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

dannyM said:


> what does that make richard jefferson and luke walton?


Cris and Basel.


----------



## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

Bartholomew Hunt said:


> Cris and Basel.


:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

Very Funny... As long as I am not luke, that's basel!


----------



## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

afobisme said:


> is kerr hinting that amare's gay?
> 
> 
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-080209-10


No, I'm sure you know what he's implying.

Marion does tend to dissapear in the playoffs, that's well known.


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

Eternal said:


> No, I'm sure you know what he's implying.
> 
> Marion does tend to dissapear in the playoffs, that's well known.


Don't be so defensive!


----------



## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

I'm being offensive.


----------



## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

ceejaynj said:


> My fantasy would be seeing the Lakers and Suns meet in the WCF...and see Kobe posterize Shaq (like he did Nash) in a Lakers victory. That should end all the Kobe-Shaq BS that keeps going around.


Same here, except that I want to see Bynum embarrass Shaq again like he did a few years ago. :clap2: That was the sweetest post fake I've ever seen in my life.


----------



## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

If Phoenix/Shaq fans thinks Marion was a choker, they are in for a rude awakening this postseason.


----------

