# Its OFFICIAL - Vince asks for TRADE



## Slasher (Jul 11, 2003)

"Vince Carter's agent revealed yesterday that the All-Star swingman met with Toronto Raptors management two weeks ago and asked the club to explore trade possibilities. "We did meet and asked them to look into trades," Mark Steinberg said in a telephone interview. "They know where we stand."


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## mavhaz (Nov 17, 2003)

I don't doubt it but is there a link


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/219054p-188387c.html


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## Slasher (Jul 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>mavhaz</b>!
> I don't doubt it but is there a link


Yes my new hobby is to make up **** and post it.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Wait a minute.

I thought all this talk of Carter wanting out was some sort of media fabrication.

I thought it was all 'unnamed sources' and not directly from VC's mouth, so it was not to be believed.

Didn't someone post on this board that VC and his mommy were setting up the media to look like fools when he declared his devotion to the Raps at his charity game? What happened to that?

I am so shocked to hear that VC really did ask for a trade (sarcasm).


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## mavhaz (Nov 17, 2003)

like i said i don't doubt it ,just wanted a link to read , relax man wasn't saying u made it up


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

another New York rumor  

i want to hear not read and i want it to come out of VC's mouth


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## mavhaz (Nov 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/219054p-188387c.html


thanks for the link


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

i thought we were all past the fact that Vince is in the thought process of playing for another team, one that is championship bound or somewhat.

nothing new people, just move along.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>mavhaz</b>!
> like i said i don't doubt it ,just wanted a link to read , relax man wasn't saying u made it up


He is not directing that at you I'm pretty sure. There are many on this board that have chalked up these trade rumours to media fabrication.

They will go unnamed but know who they are. Some people need to smashed across the face with attributed sources before they can see the reality of a situation. I don't know how people fail to read between the lines, but I guess it's people holding out hope, at least until final confirmation.

Just like that Magic poster that would not admit T-Mac would be traded until it actually happened.


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## Kid_kanada (Jun 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>madman</b>!
> another New York rumor
> 
> i want to hear not read and i want it to come out of VC's mouth


Vince doesn't have the basketballs to come out and say something like that. He lets other do his talking cause he's too worried about a public backlash. This way he can hide and say I never said that if he doesn't get traded.


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## CrookedJ (May 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kid_kanada</b>!
> 
> 
> Vince doesn't have the basketballs to come out and say something like that. He lets other do his talking cause he's too worried about a public backlash. This way he can hide and say I never said that if he doesn't get traded.


He can't even act like he never wanted out - he's had a whole month with trade rumors blowing, and he never once came out aginst them. Sure he mamby-pampied around and said he hadn't said this specific comment or that specific comment but he never said " this is false, I want to stay"

I was at his game last week, and was expecting him to come out and say he was interested in staying, looking forward to the season etc. Didn't happen.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>CrookedJ</b>!
> 
> 
> He can't even act like he never wanted out - he's had a whole month with trade rumors blowing, and he never once came out aginst them. Sure he mamby-pampied around and said he hadn't said this specific comment or that specific comment but he never said " this is false, I want to stay"
> ...


*he is exploring the possibilities of playing for another team, one that is in a better situation than the raptors. he's not saying he wants out, he's re-assessing his optioins.*


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

For the record I Think babs would like to move Vince - even if he could get .85 cents on the dollar.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

If Vince wants out then it is time to let him go. If not he will just become a cancer to the team much like TMac who basically gave up midseason was to his and was essentially traded in the summer. Keeping a disgruntled star especially when he is your "supposed" franchise player will destroy the locker room and disrupt the chemistry. The only reason why ownership is kissing his *** is because he brings them $$$ with jersey sales. I doubt even with Vince gone ACC would empty but it seems like that is the perception. That's farce. Toronto was huge before Vince and it will still be after. Why cheer for a guy or abandon your team when he himself doesn't want to be here? That's pure immaturity. It's the same notion as me ditching the Lakers now that Shaq's gone. Absurd. 

It is obvious to me that Vince is NOT the answer to take us to the next level. Therefore, a change is needed and the team has to be rebuilt. Vince is a great offensive weapon but THAT IS IT. To win we need to build a solid frontcourt and Bosh is that guy. We don't even need an allstar PG to win the East. Indiana and Detroit have proved that. Alston is inconsistent but at least he PASSES the ball unlike many PGs these days who only pass when they have no shot. A lot of people want the Raps to play an up and down game but that will just pile up our losses for years to come. Just look at Orlando. The East is not an up and down conference. It hasn't been for 20 years. We need a strong front court to compete against the likes of Indiana, Miami and Detroit. Bosh is our real franchise chance...Vince is the best player of the team thus far but really he is entertainment value for the future. To win in the East we need a dominant big man. The structure of the East has changed these past two seasons especially with Shaq and Sheed here now and young hopefuls like Howard, Darko, Curry, Brown and Okafor. We can have all the perimeter players we want and we will get nowhere just look at the Knicks and past Orlando teams.

But that begs the question what big men are out there? Babcock played smart and safe by taking Araujo and I can't fault him for that. Simply because he should take away a lot of the punishment that Bosh had to be subjected to last year. But Araujo is far from an all-star. The guy's ceiling is like Luc Longley and at his worst a prototypical Joe Kleine player. Meaning he could be the answer in the SR but not the LR. That is why I would love to somehow get Jamaal here...something I have been saying on these boards since two years ago. But a Vince for Jamaal is silly and there are no other players that New Orleans has that I want. Maybe a three team trade between New Orleans, New York, and Toronto would come up with something. But what does New York have that New Orleans would want? If we get a solid big man and an effective outside shooter back for Vince I will be satisfied. 

Let's say something like (keep in mind I am not bothering with salaries right now):

TOR

Allen
Jamaal

NY 
Vince
Mash

NO
Houston
Rad

SEA
Rose
Kurt 

But that scenario is unlikely but damn I would love getting Allen and Jamaal! But you get the idea...an effective big man and a solid shooter to build around Bosh. I don't think building around Vince would be an effective strategy anymore. It's like when Orlando waited too late to build around TMac. I hope we don't do the same with Bosh. 

But the point is if Vince wants to be gone then trade him. He is a great offensive player but far from the saviour of the Raptors franchise for the future. Unless of course you are talking about continued merchandising.


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## Apollo (Jun 3, 2004)

It's funny to me how a report like this comes out and I barely even consider it news anymore...sheesh...years ago I probably would have freaked out about it.

1) Vince apparently wants to be traded;
2) If the Raps could get value for him, they would for sure trade him;
3) Vince has never said anything negative about Toronto;
4) There's zero evidence that Vince is a "cancer" in the locker room.

Based on all of these facts, I don't really see the problem of having VC here to start the season. I would love it if he was Vince of 2000 and was on fire again, but if we have to trade him, and we can get value, then fine...I don't think VC will sulk like AD did, and I would be shocked if he did that...as for being a cancer, I don't think he is, and in fact MoPete and Jalen have both come out recently and said they enjoy playing with him, so I don't see how he can be much of a cancer anyway. There's probably tons of players in the NBA who in a perfect world would love to be traded. It just gets blown up more when it's a supposed franchise player in Toronto. For now, I'll enjoy VC while he's here and hope that he plays well this season and hope that if he does get traded, we get something decent for him. Whether we should trade him or not depends entirely on the package we get back for him because there isn't anyone on our team who is untouchable.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

People obvioulsy dont understand this, its not like he is saying he wont play for the raptors if they dont trade him, he is just telling them to explore trade possibilities. Dont tell me you all still think this is suprising news, everyone knows Vince isnt happy with raptors management, funny how it takes the NY media to report this 2 weeks after it happened


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Just because Vince wants to go to NY, It does not mean we have to trade him there.

To me, the only thing with NY that could make sense is a three way involving Marbury to the third team. We don't want/need him, but he is near equal value for Vince.

Who needs a PG?


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Wait a minute - the thread title says Vince asks for TRADE.... but the article (or whatever you posted) said that he asked management to explore trade possibilities? They're completely different man, and by the way - we've known that for a while now. No need to make a thread with caps in it about it.


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## CrookedJ (May 8, 2003)

Teams that need PG's

Atlanta 
Boston
Indiana
Houston
Charlotte
Clippers
Dallas (well they'd take Marbury!)

Atlanta:
Really only have Walker/Harrington that are quality players.
Both were just traded, so a trade would have to wait.
They do have lots of prospects though but most are 2/3's

Boston:
Peirce, Ricky Davis (meh), Welsch, Blount
They'll be hangin on to Blount, Peirce might work

Indiana
JO (not being traded) Artest, Jackson
Also have Foster, Bender, Croshere

Houston
Yao, TMac (they aren't going anywhere) Juwan (no thanks)
There are gonna have to sign someone, no tradable assests

Charlotte
Okafor
They aren't gonna be a player in this

Clips
Magette, Brand, Wilcox
Jaric and Kaman?
Maybe a pacakge would work

Dallas
Dirk, Finley (both untouchable) Stack, Terry
Howard, Pavel, Harris, Daniels
They need bigs more: if they're moving a major peice it'll be for a big

Seattle
Already been discussed at length - they might want Carter more than Marbury?

So are best 3rd team options are probably Indiana, Clippers (take that Stephon) or Boston.

Edit: 1000th post!!!


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

and i can't believe some are pissing at VC for even thinking about playing somewhere else besides TO...

the raps have been a piss poor team for 3 straight years. GG has not done anything to get back, or get anywhere close to, what they hadi 2000-2001.

it's a tough sell for players to play here without having to overpay for them and thanks to the wonderful signings of 2000-2001, we're stuck having to pick up 2 mil-value palyers or a bunch of 10-day contractees.

my question is, why hasn't VC asked for a trade sooner? i'm pretty sure a heck load of players would've if they were in his place, but no, let's downgrade VC's stature because he's looking at other possibilities...


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Here we go.

The Vince apologists and excuse makers are furiously trying to spin this latest story to make their hero look good. But guess what? His agent didn't just magically decide on his own to start answering phone calls. They are upping the pressure on the Raps.

Poor Vince, they say. Management has not surrounded him with all-star talent that will do all the real work and lead the team to playoff glory. Vince should only have to show up and post his 23/5/5 on average.

Forget that Marshall is a 20/10 guy. Forget that Bosh was first team all rookie. Forget that Rose is a max money player and 20 point scorer. Forget that MoP is a very nice bench player. Vince needs MORE. He needs every position stacked with talent to win.

Anyone with RapsTV should watch the replay of the Orlando/Phoenix game they are showing. At the half you will hear what John Thompson, Kenny Smith, Charles Barkley, and Magic Johnson had to say about being a superstar.

A superstar makes his other players better not just by getting an assist here and there. He does it in practice. He does it through leadership. A superstar has to score points at the right time. He has to get the key rebound. He has to make the entire team believe they are better than they are.

These guys all laughed at Orlando's starting lineup but still said McGrady has to play like a superstar to call himself a superstar. He can't sulk. He can't blame others. He can't just score his 25-30 points inefficiently.

Vince has done ZERO for this club since signing his max money extension. Last year was his first decent season of the last 3. He owes the Raps more than we owe him at this point.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

Everybody enjoyed playing with TMac until last season. The point is that if your "franchise" player is disgruntled what makes you think he will be happy playing here. The franchise player and captain is suppose to set a standard on and off the court for the rest of the team. I can see Vince easily becoming a cancer on this team considering his attitude now. If he just told management and the public what he wants then we can get a deal done before training camp arrives. The GM will have a better perspective of where this club is headed and thus can build towards that formula. Vince should not have the power to persuade management decisions. We are not talking about a top 10 player here! To me exploring trade possibilities is the same as saying: 

"You know what I don't REALLY want to be here but if I have to then I will."

I understand that people here have a lovefest for Vince which made him overrated for years and then underrated after his injuries by the general norm. Truth is the guy is a great offensive player but is simply not the guy that will take this team to the next level. Everybody talks about competing but if that is the aim of the Raptor's management then we are basically garbage. I doubt Bird and Dumars "only" thought about competing. With Vince as the go-to guy I can only see us "competing". 

Don't get me wrong I like Vince. His game and style is entertaining. But he is turning into the next Mitch Richmond...an outstanding 2 who was never really a franchise player. Especially after Vince's injuries but I can't fault him for that but reality is reality. If Vince really wants to stay that is fine with me (although he should SAY IT...it's like the whole TMac situation revisited) but I think the team needs to take a new direction considering how the East has changed. The East will soon be a "big man" conference. I think it is time for the Vince formula to be scrapped whether he stays here or not. I just don't think a "Vince's team" in a conference of Shaq, Sheed, JO, Big Ben and future guys like Brown, Okafor, Howard, and Darko will succeed. Considering it is questionable even if Vince is a top 5 SG.

But I am a firm believer in "if a guy doesn't want to be here then let him go". I have been a project leader for many marketing groups and I think any leader will tell you the hardship of a member who wishes to be somewhere else. It simply creates dysfunctional conflict which can disrupt or invade the team atmosphere. That is the vibe I am getting from Vince. Sure people say Vince has not come out and say he wants to leave but has he come out to say that he wants to stay? That indicates to me his heart has pretty much left considering he admitted to not even trying to persuade Mo Pete to stay although management express their desire to keep him. I think even if Vince does wear a Raptor's uniform next year it is only a matter of time before he voices his displeasure publically (especially if we lose a ton) unless he changes his attitude.



> Originally posted by <b>Apollo</b>!
> It's funny to me how a report like this comes out and I barely even consider it news anymore...sheesh...years ago I probably would have freaked out about it.
> 
> 1) Vince apparently wants to be traded;
> ...


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Lol some people are actually getting mad at VC for wanting to play in NY, lets see where would you rather be playing at the ACC or the Mecca of basketball, its a no brainer. The man didnt say if he is not traded he wont play, he is not a cancer to the team, management has more leverage, and if NY is not willing to let go of Marbury this looks like a dead deal. Matter of fact Chad Ford says there is a 5 percent chance this works.



> I understand that people here have a lovefest for Vince which made him overrated for years and then underrated after his injuries by the general norm. Truth is the guy is a great offensive player but is simply not the guy that will take this team to the next level. Everybody talks about competing but if that is the aim of the Raptor's management then we are basically garbage. I doubt Bird and Dumars "only" thought about competing. With Vince as the go-to guy I can only see us "competing".


So please answer the simple question who can you bring in for Vince to lead the raptors to the 'championship'


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

The question should be CAN Vince lead us to a championship? If not then management has to take on a new strategy. Taking on a new strategy might mean having to trade Vince. Period. Why stick to a failing forumla? It makes no sense. It's like holding onto a falling investment with the hopes that one day it will rise. I am not suggesting that by trading Vince and whoever we get back will make us into a championship team but look at Dumars...he traded Stackhouse and even switched coaches. Point being a new forumla had to be used because the old one didn't work. Trading Vince does not guarantee a championship. In fact, it might lead us to the bottom for awhile but the fact is that if a formula is not working than a new one has to be created or innovated. That is the GM's job not mine. 



> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> 
> So please answer the simple question who can you bring in for Vince to lead the raptors to the 'championship'


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## McFurious (Mar 25, 2004)

*Carter finally goes public.. Vince wants out.*

Fri, August 6, 2004 

Word is out: Vince vexed

CARTER'S AGENT ASKS RAPTORS TO TRADE DISGRUNTLED SUPERSTAR, BUT GM BABCOCK SAYS NO 'THIRD PARTY' WILL FORCE HAND

By MARK KEAST, TORONTO SUN

VINCE CARTER'S agent has launched the latest salvo in an ongoing saga with the Raptors organization, perhaps purposely heightening a battle of wills over the future of the five-time all-star. Mark Steinberg was quoted yesterday in the New York Daily News with what can safely be described as confirmation of what most people have been believing, that Carter has asked the Raptors to trade him. It's the first time someone from Carter's inner circle has come out with such a definitive statement regarding the star's apparent dissatisfaction with the organization. 

"We did meet and asked them to look into trades," Steinberg told the paper. "They know where we stand." 

However Raptors general manager Rob Babcock told The Toronto Sun yesterday he won't be boxed in by "third party" sources. 

"No one is going to force me to make a trade," Babcock said. "This is not forcing our hand. I can't speculate (on Steinberg's motivation). Seriously, I'd be crazy (to worry about Steinberg's comments).

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/Sports/2004/08/06/570961.html 

**Hopefully a deal can be done before training camp..... and for all you people who still think Vince is going to stay with the Raps think again.**


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

I think another key quote is:



> "It is not the ideal situation. But I've made it very clear the only way I would trade any player on our team is if it's a trade that makes us a better team. Obviously there's nothing out there or we would have done it.


Babs has been willing to pull the trigger but no team has stepped up with a decent offer. That's a little scary. Didn't take teams long to make great offers for TMac, Shaq, and Kobe.

Babs doesn't care if VC and his agent stand atop the CN Tower and shout to the world that he wants a trade. There will be no trade until we get fair value. Nice.

Seems like Babs was lying when he said he has not initiated any trade talks about VC. Babs lies a lot.

At least other NBA teams now know that VC is truly available and that Babs will pull the trigger if they give him a fair offer.

This could actually help.


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## McFurious (Mar 25, 2004)

Sacramento can be a real possibility now since Peja has asked for a trade.. but my only concern is would he fit our team well?


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Don't worry about fit.

He is a very smart basketball player. Plays the game the 'right way' as Larry Brown would say.

Sac plays an uptempo style. One of highest scoring teams in the league. They share the ball well in the halfcourt. If we get 2 players in return, which we would have to because of $$, they will bring that knowledge and experience on top of their talent.

Peja led the kings to the best record in basketball while Webber was out.

He would be a good fit on any basketball team.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Vince would thrive in sacramento's system, unfortunately Joe Maloof on ESPN just said there is absolutely no way they would trade him. Isiah also said somewhere today that Marbury is untouchable, Vince might not be stuck in a raps uniform if no good deal comes forward


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Carter
Murray

for 
Allen
Radmanvoich


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Some other interesting quotes



> Toronto general manager Rob Babcock said last week that he was confident of Carter's intentions to remain in Toronto.





> We're on the same page. As far as him playing on our basketball team, I feel very comfortable about that and I see him coming to camp."





> Stephen Smith of ESPN reported yesterday he spoke to the Raptors' front office and that they laughed at the assertion that Carter would be traded to the Knicks.


 - Toronto Globe


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

I think this trade would workout great for both the Raptors and the Kings..

Toronto trades: Vince Carter
Sacramento trades: Peja , Christie


Christie would be just someone that Sacramento are willing to throw in to match the salaries... 

With Mo Pete and Doug Christie, we should be a very solid defensive team.. With Peja, one of the best shooters in the league, we will have many different offensive weapons...

For Sacramento it works because they get rid of Christie, and get Carter, someone who would actually want to play in Sacramento instead of Peja..


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

You are killing me Hbwoy.

You are wearing me down with your tenacious D.

I respect your passion and your loyalty to VC.

But please, let him go. He wants out. There is no doubting that now. His agent confirmed it. Babcock confirmed it. Even VC and his mommy have confirmed it in their own slimy, wishy-washy way. We are just waiting for the right deal. Let him go.

Babcock and VC ARE on the same page. They both agree that Vince wants out.

And if Steven Smith called my virtual GM office looking for a scoop on a VC to NY trade I would laugh at him too. It's Steven Smith for god's sake. And all NY can offer us is cap savings in 2 years.

In VC's mind he has already left. That makes it almost impossible for him to give his full effort for us. AD didn't try to play bad. He was sad and depressed about his family situation and the constant media pressure. Vince is less mentally tough than AD.

It's best for everyone to move him now.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> 
> In VC's mind he has already left. *That makes it almost impossible for him to give his full effort for us.* AD didn't try to play bad. He was sad and depressed about his family situation and the constant media pressure. Vince is less mentally tough than AD.


i wonder whether you really believe that. i don't know whether vince would be unhappy as much as he just wouldn't be _happy_, but regardless, i think the raptors may be in a good position here. i don't know how active babcock has been at soliciting offers, if at all, but vince carter is (if anything) probably under the impression that if he doesn't perform, he simply won't be traded. if that's his worst case scenario, he might force _himself_ to up his value. in that case, he'll see top performance as his only recourse, as his means to justify an end.

this is not antonio davis- that comparison is convenient if you're hellbent on moving vince carter, but i don't believe it's relevant. if anything, vince has shown (in the past) to respond well to controversy, to play at his top level _solely_ under the spotlight of controversy, and i think the raptors might finally stand to benefit from vince's personality quirks.

furthermore, if he somehow resumed his career as an elite nba ballplayer, team success would inevitably follow, and the off-season tabloids that have recently enveloped this market may fall by the wayside. vince is also, in my opinion, the kind of player who is easily convinced by off-season rhetoric and exaggeration, and his alleged wishes of the past few weeks and months may ultimately dissolve as soon as the ball is tipped in november, or at least as soon as the team begins experiencing some success. i mean, who knows? to think that he will be as problematic to the team atmosphere as antonio davis is (imo) short-sighted/unrealistic. vince is just a different animal. 

but you already know this. 

peace


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

> I respect your passion and your loyalty to VC


Lol thanx for d compliment, I also respect your passion to wanting Vince out.

I honestly could care less where Vince ends up, I prolly will keep watching his games, can I say the same about the raptors, am not sure. Ballocks made very good points down there, I am pretty sure Vince wont be traded before the season starts, now what happens if the team starts winning and Vince is once again playing like an elite player, do you go ahead and pull the trigger on a trade


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

AHHH, now there you have struck upon yet another dilemma for poor Mr. Babcock. 



> now what happens if the team starts winning and Vince is once again playing like an elite player, do you go ahead and pull the trigger on a trade


Does Babs trade VC who will then be at the height of his value? OR does Babs hold onto VC and hope and pray that he doesn't go down to yet another injury later in the year, destroying the last remaining trade value he may have had?

I see no evidence of VC ever becoming the player we need him to be. Heck, I don't even see any evidence that he is working on his body to just maintain his play from last year. Certainly Vince at 30 is a scary thought.

So I would move him now while he has value and not trust that his body will hold up past December and move him by then at the latest no matter how well he plays.


And Ballocks, if you believe that VC is mentally strong enough to deliver at his peak level under that kind of stress then I just have to disagree. If anything AD is more mature and professional than VC and he struggled mightily in the same situation.


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## Apollo (Jun 3, 2004)

I don't think you can determine whether Vince will be under "stress" or not until you can figure out why he wants to be traded. And once you know that, then you can figure out if it will affect his performance.

I don't think his performance will be affected at all. The same things he does that annoys people or drives them crazy are still going to happen...the quick jump shots, the fadeaways, the lack of driving the basket...he's going to do that whether he's happy here or not...that's part of his game. And the things we love about him...the dunks, the ability to create his own shot, the athleticism, the chance he might drop 30-40 a night on any given night, that's still going to happen too. As far as I know, I've never seen Vince tank a game or give up. I've seen him float on defence and take ill advised shots, but if you think that will change because he's suddenly "stressed" cause he wants to be traded, I just don't see it.

Vince is who he is, and that won't change in my opinion. I could see him playing better because of a new coach, more time with his new teammates and perhaps a chip on his shoulder, but I can't see him playing worse...especially not to the point where he's absolutely killing our team. We live and die with Vince as it is...whether he's giving 100% effort or not, the outcome remains the same...we either win because of him, or we lose...I would say it's rare that we lose a game we should have won because of only Vince...


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## Apollo (Jun 3, 2004)

Let me add though that if the reason is that his new wife is pissed to have to live in Toronto and Vince gets heat from his family 24/7, then okay, he'd be stressed and I could see that playing a difference in his play...but until we know the real reason (and I'm not saying we ever will)...then I don't think you can automatically assume Vince will suck this year.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

^Good points. And lucky please tell me what makes you think Vince is not trying to be in shape, or that he is not trying to improve his game. What athlete goes into a season, hoping to get injured or sitout games


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Junkyard Dog13</b>!
> Carter
> Murray
> 
> ...


God No we really dont improve a lot with this trade and Allen probably will not re-sign with us


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

First, let me clarify that I never said Vince would play WORSE under the constant stress of 'is he going or not'. I simply said that expecting him to regain his pre-injury form and becoming a truly elite player under that pressure is unlikely. Other people expect he can show marked improvement under these conditions which is unrealistic.

He should be about the same as last year. 

Second, Hbwoy, when did I ever say that VC wants to be injured?

The proof of VC's lack of offseason work ethic comes from his own mouth. He has said several times that 'he knows best' about his body and thinks that rest is better than a regular workout schedule for him. His former teammates also speak about VC's aversion to weight training. Vince and mommy know better than everyone.

The fact that Jordan, Pippen, Stockton, Malone and many others had long injury free careers by working out year round is lost on VC. Examples in other sports like Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens, Cal Ripken, Jerry Rice, Emmitt Smith etc, etc are lost on VC. 

Do you ever hear of VC working out at Grover's gym? Who is VC's personal trainer? Why is it we can name the gyms and trainers of other players but not Vince?

I will also add my personal observation that VC looks more tired on the court at end of games than most other star players. Guys like Iverson, Marbury, Hamilton, Kobe, etc all seem fresher at the end of games.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Apollo</b>!
> I don't think you can determine whether Vince will be under "stress" or not until you can figure out why he wants to be traded.


i think this is a fantastic point, too often overlooked by fans/people who believe that everything conveyed through the media is black or white: it's either rosy or it's garbage. 

you see that in many places now, those who take the basic "trade demand" and automatically assume that it's "eric lindros & the quebec nordiques"-esque. it's unfortunate, but we should probably begin to acknowledge the in-between area, the _grey area_, because it is that "area" in which the truth normally lies. at this point, i would venture that we do not know the context of this trade demand- put differently, why it is being sought, if "sought" is even the right word for it and, if so, how _furiously_ it is being "sought".

i mean, maybe it IS intense- maybe vince has absolutely no intentions/desires to play in toronto again. maybe it's not a demand, maybe it's a *command*. 

on the other hand, maybe it's just a player in his "prime" years acknowledging the effort of the new management team to "build for the future". maybe he thinks he doesn't fit in that plan, or that he doesn't WANT to fit in that plan (or both), and suggested the idea of a trade to continue his career elsewhere. maybe it's not the easiest thing in the world for him to do (i.e. issue a trade demand) but something he feels is still necessary for his long-term development. 

*or maybe it's somewhere in-between*. maybe it's not as cold-blooded as the former scenario, nor as gentlemanly as the latter. you see, in the real world, there are more things to consider than those which the fans are given the privilege of seeing. as fans, we resort to simplifying these issues because it is only in their simplest terms that we can actually make sense of them. the problem is that reality is rarely (if ever) so simple, and far be it for anyone unconnected to identify (let alone understand) the actual factors in decision-making processes. 

put "simply", this is not 0 or 1- this trade demand (and the entire situation) probably sits somewhere on a scale of 0 to 1000 (1 000 000?) in complexity. there are surely many other things at work here, many factors and contexts which have yet to (and may never) be exposed. 

you see, this player actually exists- and he actually makes his living playing basketball, he actually has a wife and family, he actually has various charitable foundations to his name, he actually has a life in the toronto community, he has friends and other issues to consider (as we all do). in other words, he has a life, he is not some fictional character created for the sake of public consumption and entertainment. 

in that sense, it's impossible to speculate as to how he'll play next year because it's impossible to even speculate why he's feeling the way he is (or *what* he's feeling) TODAY. this man's life is different than that of every player in the league, not to mention every person on earth. it would certainly make it easier for the fans if all these players could be grouped under the same category ("trade seekers") and then treated the same way to reach the same favorable outcome, but it just doesn't happen like that. what's more absurd (imo) is to think that a player like AD (and _his_ past) should govern how the raptors approach vince carter and his future- that is unfortunately, in my opinion, a blatant sign of weakness on the part of some people.

it's not that simple.

as fans, we should acknowledge that he is not like AD, that he is not "like" anyone, and to speculate on the basis of other speculation (using the tenuous AD link as a starting point) does more to hurt the raptors than not. i think organizations are already pressured enough from the fans (some organizations, like the GG-era raptors, even concede to them in some instances); it is then the responsibility of the fanbase, peripherally, to therefore make informed "recommendations"- and not "concede" to knee-jerk reactions and opinions formed on half-truths. 

from the media's point of view, trade demand = trade demand = trade demand - it *has* to, or else it makes no "sense", and if it makes no "sense" it can't be published. it's bloody unfortunate.

i think it would be a valuable move if mankind in general were to finally accept the complexity inherent in every situation (especially those involving celebrities) before making its judgments and recommendations, and ultimately stamping its indictments. 

peace


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## Apollo (Jun 3, 2004)

It's tough to speculate on Vince's off season workout. We don't know anything about it. Does he sit around and do nothing, that's pretty impossible I would say. Vince is in pretty good shape just by looking at him, that isn't natural. He must work out and he must train, whether he goes nuts like some workout freaks or not is up for debate. Just cause we can't name his gym or his trainer means very little...I can only think of a couple trainers - Shaq's and that guy in Chicago that a lot of athletes go to who trained Jordan.

I remember an interview Vince did last season where he said he was working out and doing a boxing workout as well. Guys like AD can speculate about whether Vince works out or not, but AD has been injured too, so I find it difficult to say that Vince would have been less injured for example if he had worked out more. I also have a hard time remembering if Vince ever has conditioning problems at the end of games...if he has, they haven't been so dramatic as to be a huge factor...

Vince isn't Karl Malone, he doesn't work out like crazy, that's true. But he's somewhere in the middle like most players...he isn't a workout freak but he works out. Would I love to hear that Vince hits the gym all the time in the offseason? Of course I would. But the fact that I'm not hearing about what he does isn't enough to make me believe he's doing nothing.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Go tell your girlfriend or significant other that they should 'look into' dating other people.

You will quickly find that there is little grey zone in that kind of talk. 

They will be pissed. Unless they have already been thinking the same thing. Or already doing it.  

"Maybe we should see other people?" That's breaking up talk.

"Maybe you should look into trade possibilities" means I am out of here.

The stress isnt from being somewhere you don't want to be. Its having the media on your butt 24/7 about the situation. Noone likes that. Answering the same questions every hour of every day in every city you go to. Human beings do not generally respond well to that. Vince has already become frustrated with the MINIMAL amount of media he has had to deal with about this compared to what he will face in the season.

Could he start the year off great. Sure. But it will be difficult. He will have to play with more determination and heart than he has shown in years. While under more scrutiny and unwanted attention than ever before.

Spin that any way you want.


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## Sissond (Jun 22, 2004)

*Let's get Peja if we can*

I think Vince Carter will be better off in Sac town, and Sacromento is better to have him. With Bibby running the poing and VC playing beside him, and then having Webber and Ostertag up front, this team still has a lot of life in the west.

Peja would also fit out team as well and if they throw in Christie, we would have a good team. Not sure who would start, but I am sure both Christie and Peja would both start. Our lineup will probably be like this

PG - Rose, Alston, AW
SG - Christie, AW, Rose
SF - Peja, Mo Pete
PF - Bosh, Marshall
C - Woods (if he signs), Araujo, Moiso

Sacromento would look like

PG - Bibby, B. Jackson
SG - Vince Carter
SF - Not sure
PF - Webber, Songalia
C - Ostertag, and whoever


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

*Re: Let's get Peja if we can*



> Originally posted by <b>Sissond</b>!
> I think Vince Carter will be better off in Sac town, and Sacromento is better to have him. With Bibby running the poing and VC playing beside him, and then having Webber and Ostertag up front, this team still has a lot of life in the west.
> 
> Peja would also fit out team as well and if they throw in Christie, we would have a good team. Not sure who would start, but I am sure both Christie and Peja would both start. Our lineup will probably be like this
> ...


More like..

Rafer/ AW/ RMJ
Rose/Christie/AW
Peja/Mo Pete
Bosh/Marshall
Araujo/Woods/Moiso

If you ignore Mo Pete and AW's statistics last year, thats 4 players coming off the bench who average 10 PPG +..

Bibby
Jackson 
Carter
Webber / Songalia
Ostertag/ B Miller


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

The man must be doing something well, he played 73games this season compared to the 60 and 40 season appearances. Didnt Vince say something like they were all working out in Sarasota in the preseason, just after AD called him out on not conditioning his body. Me personally I could care less what he does in the offseason, we got to understand that this man has a life besides basketball, everyone seems to be interested in what this athletes are doing and why they do those things, a normal human being obviously couldnt deal with the pressure.


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## Slasher (Jul 11, 2003)

This post has already been created by me yesterday: http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110602&forumid=32

Combine the threads.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Slasher</b>!
> This post has already been created by me yesterday: http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110602&forumid=32
> 
> Combine the threads.


dONE


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## raps_luva (Mar 28, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>madman</b>!
> another New York rumor
> 
> i want to hear not read and i want it to come out of VC's mouth


Exactly!! If Vince hasn't said anything about this, then its not true. It's all bull....
Like I said before, if Vince's agent is the one TELLING Vince he should go play somewhere else and not GIVING him the choice..then Vince needs to fina a new agent. Your agent can't tell you where to play. I'm not going to believe any of this stuff the newspapers are saying unless I actually hear it from VC's mouth. I agree with you!


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

raps_luva as big a fan as I am of Vince, even I know he probably asked for a trade. Am also pretty sure he wont come out to the public to assert this, the man wants to look loyal to the toronto fans and doesnt want to be viewed as a villain


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

His agent came out and said it.. What more do you want? You know Vince is reluctant to do so, because he will be looked upon very negatively from the Toronto fans if he does.


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## Slasher (Jul 11, 2003)

If Vince's agent says something its like Vince saying something. The agent works for Vince and represents him. In other words, he is payed to say things like this, and unless they weren't true and didn't come from Vince why would he say it? I don't think he would put his job on the line just to say where Vince wants to go unless it was true.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

On the other hand we raptor fans are blowing this way out of proportion, which player wouldnt want to play for the knicks, it wouldnt be in Vince's best interest if he isnt playing the East


This was taken from the Hamton's dairy from the NY Online Edition:

The hoopster, during his first trip to the Hamptons on Friday, confided to Diary that he can see himself playing in front of celebrity row for the Big Apple team. 

"As long as I continue to play, anything can happen," said the Toronto Raptor, who grew up in Detroit and began a friendship with Knicks president of basketball operations Isiah Thomas as a youngster. 

"I wouldn't want to **** off Toronto," he said. But "who doesn't like warming up in Madison Square Garden?"

Even Rose his entertaining ideas of playing in the garden


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## Apollo (Jun 3, 2004)

As I've said before, there's probably lots of guys across all pro leagues who aren't playing for their dream franchise. Most guys don't say anything about it and keep playing. In this case, Vince thinks he has leverage to try and work something out...whether he actually wants out 100% or not we don't know.

Another thing...media attention in Toronto ain't minimal...even Toronto media themselves say that there's more media attention on the Raptors here than any other NBA city except New York. Toronto has four newspapers, three all-sports tv channels and at least two radio stations that all have dedicated Raptors reporters. I think that if VC has to stay and deal with questions, it'll be coming from all the same reporters that are always around him anyway. It will get annoying for sure...but so are questions about why the team sucks...I don't think it will really bother him that much at all. It bothered AD because he didn't get the same media attention as Vince until after he started grumbling about getting traded and it became obvious AD could not handle the attention. VC has handled this level of scrutiny his entire career. It's debatable whether he's handled it well or not, but I just don't see that many huge issues that will affect team performance that much if VC starts the season with us. We're going to be bad no matter what, I think...


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