# LOL @ Yao having more Allstar Votes Than Shaq



## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

Amazing as it sounds , Yao Ming is the leading vote getter for his position with 814,393 votes (4th overall) and Daddy comes in with 655,744 (10th overall)

Yao is on media FIRE!

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2003/0102/1485898.html

no Blazer AllStar figures as of yet that i can find......


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

actually , found some

Forwards : Pippen has 115,657 , Sheed has 112,255 (just about a thousand more than robert horry :/ )'
Placings : 7th and 9th respectively

Centers : Sabas has 49,308
Placing : 7th
(cmon you BBB Sabonis fans , get your voting network in action!)


no sign of Wells.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

The All-Star voting has always been a bit of a joke, but if Ming wins a starting nod over Shaq it'll be a dark day, indeed, and will show the system is broken, in my eyes.

Why? Because the relatively pure democracy involved (with the vote early and often qualification) means that Chinese fans that have internet access will ALWAYS vote for Yao if they vote at all. Many Blazers or Kings fans will NEVER vote for Shaq, merely as a protest vote. I can't imagine many anti-Yao protest votes originating in China.

While it's cool that the NBA wants to be a global game and expand and all that, the fact is that the core fan base is in the U.S., and if an unproven rookie like Yao starts ahead of (at least) one of the top 4 centers in NBA history, then I think some people will start to see the game (and eventually the league) as purely entertainment and less sport.

I'm NOT trying to sound jingoistic or anything... if it was a Dale Davis v. Yao Ming decision, I'd be ambivalent (even as a Blazers fan). But this is a rookie against Shaquille O'Neal, winner of 3 straight titles and the most dominant center since (again, even being conservative) the 70's.

Ed O.


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## brad-z (Jan 2, 2003)

Well, if it were any other year I would agree. This year though, Shaq has been hurt and out of shape. I do believe that if Yao had never scored ten points in a game this year he might still be leading.....

That being said, the reason fans in China vote for Yao isn't any different than us homers voting for our players. There is just a BILLION of them.


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## FeloniusThunk (Jan 1, 2003)

Yao ahead of Shaq, Vince Carter ahead of practically everyone. I can appreciate the all-star game being about showing the fans who they want to see, but I'd like there to also be a game involving the best players from all teams against each each other. I think I'd rather just have the coaches and/or players vote the players in. Or maybe a test for the voters, or a minimum number of games played.

I don't really want to watch Shaq play, but it's ridiculous for anyone else to be ahead of him at center (unless you count Tim Duncan as center, maybe).


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

i understand the popularity issue, but for a rookie Yao is getting some major love. must feel nice to have a whole country behind you


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## bintim70 (Dec 31, 2002)

I don't think it's all the Chinese voting for Yao........I for one actually like this guy a lot. Best ambassador China ever had.
Besides I don't like Shaqs arrogance.......but that's just me. Maybe he can make Yao retire like he did Sabonis.


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## Paxil (Jan 1, 2003)

*I agree with bintim70*

I really doubt excessive votes are coming from China.... and it doesn't even bother me if they are because they can be NBA fans too. I love Yao, his game and his personality. All-star balloting is always a popularity contest... no one cries foul over the fact that LA & NY had gadzillions of people compared to small markets like Portland. OK... well... I guess they have- but it is what it is. All-Star game isn't about who is best (well... the reserves are picked like that) but about who the majority of the fans want to see. You can bet the all-star game will be broadcast in China.

Ed O, don't want to hijack this thread into a anti-Shaq fest, but I have a few friends spread around the country where I can get a glimpses of how well Shaq is liked outside of LA, and most of the people I know don't like him. I think Kobe is the big LA attraction... regardless of who helps them win more games. All-star game is where we get to pick the starters of who we'd like to see... and I don't have a hard time believing Shaq is behind Ming. Actually... thank God he is! Imagine that... being able to shoot and pass and dribble to be in the NBA. What a novel idea.


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## tmacizgod (Jul 18, 2002)

i called this at the beginning of the year. yao would win the starting nod even though i didnt want it to happen. damn that david stern!


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

People, this is nothing compared to AC Green starting over Karl Malone in the late 80s early 90s (I don't quite remember). If that didn't stop the debacle that is all-star voting nothing will.

Yao has a pretty great chance of making the team without being voted in by the fans anyhow. The way he has been playing, he'll be averaging 16 and 10 by that time and thats more than enough to get an all-star nod. I think the complaining should lean to why Grant Hill and Vince Carter are getting any votes at all, well, that and the fact that Raef LaFrentz is more apparently more popular than Sabas. 

Anywho, if it is ok for Vince and Grant to get the popularity vote than I am all for Yao starting. 

STuart


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: I agree with bintim70*



> Originally posted by <b>Paxil</b>!
> I really doubt excessive votes are coming from China.... and it doesn't even bother me if they are because they can be NBA fans too. I love Yao, his game and his personality. All-star balloting is always a popularity contest... no one cries foul over the fact that LA & NY had gadzillions of people compared to small markets like Portland. OK... well... I guess they have- but it is what it is. All-Star game isn't about who is best (well... the reserves are picked like that) but about who the majority of the fans want to see. You can bet the all-star game will be broadcast in China.


So what? Why should I, as an American fan of the NBA, be excited about the NBA catering to a country that has missiles aimed at us?

On a less antagonistic bent, while China has a huge population, and is a largely untapped market, how would the majority of fans react if Wang were voted onto the starting 5? Would it be OK because it's just a popularity contest?

If you say no, then it's pretty inconsistent: Shaq is so much better than any center in the West (unless you consider Duncan a center) that it's not even funny. I don't care if people hate him or not, but he deserves to start perhaps more than any player in NBA history deserves to start, and if he doesn't then it means that the NBA All-Star game is more of a joke than I thought it was.



> Ed O, don't want to hijack this thread into a anti-Shaq fest, but I have a few friends spread around the country where I can get a glimpses of how well Shaq is liked outside of LA, and most of the people I know don't like him. I think Kobe is the big LA attraction... regardless of who helps them win more games. All-star game is where we get to pick the starters of who we'd like to see... and I don't have a hard time believing Shaq is behind Ming. Actually... thank God he is! Imagine that... being able to shoot and pass and dribble to be in the NBA. What a novel idea.


Shaq's a better passer than Yao. I would bet that he's a better dribbler, too. Yao's a much better shooter, and he's less of a banger. It doesn't mean that Shaq's not a skilled player.

In terms of Shaq's popularity: he's popular enough for Burger King. And Nestle. And Radio Shack. Granted, he doesn't have a major shoe deal, but I think that these big companies probably wouldn't be pouring their ad dollars down the drain by paying Shaq to back them. 

He's a popular guy, anecdotal evidence aside.

Ed O.


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## tmacizgod (Jul 18, 2002)

shaq has no more shoe deal cuz his first shoes by reebok didnt sell because there was making a size 20 whtever shoe didnt market well, it was impossible to relate to him back then. 

maybe stern is part of the peace treaty?


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## Paxil (Jan 1, 2003)

> So what? Why should I, as an American fan of the NBA, be excited about the NBA catering to a country that has missiles aimed at us?


I not sure what missiles or politics has to do with the NBA.



> how would the majority of fans react if Wang were voted onto the starting 5? Would it be OK because it's just a popularity contest?


I think the fact that this isn't happening kind of points out that votes probably are not pouring in from China. 

Ed, I guess we just fundamentally disagree with what the all-star game is. I think it is a game where you get to pick some of the best players in the world _you'd like to see_ for an extra game. It is a popularity contest. If fans vote on it... that is all it can be. Most fans tend to vote for their own players. The bigger cities have more fans.... so their players are more likely to get more votes. Taking a step outside of that and add other countries... nothing new going on. Same old same old.


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## Paxil (Jan 1, 2003)

> Ed O. He's a popular guy, anecdotal evidence aside.


No doubt... but there is a difference between popular (well-known) and well-liked. 

Michael Jackson is pretty popular too.


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## rynobot (Oct 10, 2002)

Who could hate Yao? I voted for him a couple times becuase I want to see him play in the All-Star Game.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Paxil</b>!
> 
> I not sure what missiles or politics has to do with the NBA.


China is not the friendliest of countries to the U.S. -- that's what missiles have to do with the NBA (which is at its core an American company). 

I don't care if China's population will be watching the All-Star game or not -- that's what international politics have to do with.

The marketing monies that the NBA is making from China and elsewhere in Asia is unknown to me, but I think an over-internationalization of the NBA is going to be a huge mistake for the NBA, and unless some checks are put in place the all-star game is going to evolve away from whatever it's worth today.

It will be interesting to see in Major League baseball this year if/when two thirds of the AL outfield is occupied by Japanese players (Ichiro and Matsui)... at least when Ichiro was voted in previously (on the strength of the Japanese votes), he wasn't being voted in ahead of the best player in the game.



> I think the fact that this isn't happening kind of points out that votes probably are not pouring in from China.


Um. No. Wang is not on the all-star ballot (at least on NBA.com), so it doesn't point out anything of the kind.



> Ed, I guess we just fundamentally disagree with what the all-star game is. I think it is a game where you get to pick some of the best players in the world _you'd like to see_ for an extra game. It is a popularity contest. If fans vote on it... that is all it can be. Most fans tend to vote for their own players. The bigger cities have more fans.... so their players are more likely to get more votes. Taking a step outside of that and add other countries... nothing new going on. Same old same old.


I think we DO disagree. If it was just a popularity contest, then maybe it should just morph into a bigger, better version of Rock'n'Jock...



Ed O.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Paxil</b>!
> 
> No doubt... but there is a difference between popular (well-known) and well-liked.
> 
> Michael Jackson is pretty popular too.


Hrm... you think that major sponsors pay Shaq to do commercials because he's well-known, but not because he's well-liked?

I don't know what his Q rating is, but I bet it's pretty good.

Ed O.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rynobot</b>!
> Who could hate Yao? I voted for him a couple times becuase I want to see him play in the All-Star Game.


I certainly don't hate him, but I think that rooting for him is kind of like rooting for Ivan Drago in Rocky IV: he's the product of a state-controlled system that's exploited him for political advantage.

Of course, China didn't (to my knowledge) juice him up the way Drago was... 

Ed O.


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## rynobot (Oct 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> I certainly don't hate him, but I think that rooting for him is kind of like rooting for Ivan Drago in Rocky IV: he's the product of a state-controlled system that's exploited him for political advantage.
> ...


Except Yao is the good guy and Shaq is the bad guy.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rynobot</b>!
> 
> Except Yao is the good guy and Shaq is the bad guy.


Um. Not really.

Not liking Shaq (and I am NOT a big fan of Shaq in that I don't root for him to succeed) has little to do with the fact that the U.S. Government did not house and train him, like China's government did with Yao. I guess one could argue that Shaq's time at LSU was a state sponsorship, but that was only a couple of years. 

*shrug* I'm not really trying to bash Yao, but I think a lot of people's immense dislike for the Lakers and Shaq is clouding their judgment a bit... I guess it could just be simply that different things are expected out of the All-Star game.

Ed O.


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

Ed O, do you think Yao belongs in the all-star game at all?


STuart


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>s a b a s 11</b>!
> Ed O, do you think Yao belongs in the all-star game at all?


Maybe. The dearth of centers generally makes it easier for Yao to make it. I think that Divac probably deserves it more, or count Duncan as a C and let an additional forward like Brand or Wallace in.

Yao's been good, but he's still not the best player on his team (Francis is, easily, and Mobley might be better right now, too) and the Rockets are improved but not lighting the league on fire.

Divac, on the other hand, has stats that are almost as good and he plays on a team that is one of the top 2 or 3 in the NBA.

I wouldn't be upset at all if the coaches decide to put him on the roster, especially if he improves his numbers a bit before the all-star break. Him starting, though... 

:upset:

Ed O.


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## rynobot (Oct 10, 2002)

Yao is the 2nd best center in the league he deserves to be in the game. I think it is funny that Shaq won't start, now we will get to see him cry about not starting the allstar game.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rynobot</b>!
> Yao is the 2nd best center in the league he deserves to be in the game.


Why is he the second-best center in the game? He easily COULD be, sometime soon, but I don't think that a guy who's averaging 13.2 ppg and 7.6 rpg can seriously be considered the second-best center in the game.



> I think it is funny that Shaq won't start, now we will get to see him cry about not starting the allstar game.


That's mature.

Ed O.


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> Maybe. The dearth of centers generally makes it easier for Yao to make it. I think that Divac probably deserves it more, or count Duncan as a C and let an additional forward like Brand or Wallace in.
> ...


Oh no, Cuttino Mobley does nothing but shoot the ball and has a "talent" to throw up shots at the worst time, but I won't go into that...

I don't get it, we all know what the all-star voting is about and sometimes a player undeserving sometimes gets voted in (AC Green, Alonzo when he didn't play a game, Grant Hill a few years ago, Vince Carter this year) but with Yao Ming, the guy has a good chance to make the team anyways... so why the big huff?

The thing about all-star voting that angers me is when a player that doesn't deserve to be in the game (a few years ago Kobe started and he in no way deserved to be on the team at all)

I don't understand the big hoopla... I wish Yao Ming not to start and be voted in by the coaches... I can't handle this "hordes of Chinese voting him in" way of thinking.

STuart


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>s a b a s 11</b>!
> I don't understand the big hoopla... I wish Yao Ming not to start and be voted in by the coaches... I can't handle this "hordes of Chinese voting him in" way of thinking.


To me, there are two issues:

#1: He'd be voted in over the best player in the NBA.
#2: The foreign/Chinese influence.

Both of these are irritating to me, and I think that I've expressed a bit why they are elsewhere in the thread. None of the other examples you cite (as vexing as they might be) approach this one, except the Kobe incident. Imagine if he'd been voted in ahead of Michael Jordan.

AC Green wasn't anything great, but he was a key starter on a team that was an NBA power and he had a good track record. It's entirely possible that he would have been selected as a reserve had he not been voted as a starter that year.

Yao, OTOH, is a good player (at the moment, although he does appear to be potentially very good or great) who's a novelty and a bit of a blank slate that people can project things upon.

Ed O.


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## SheedSoNasty (Dec 31, 2002)

I love it, Shaq's a bore and Yao's the center of the future all I have to say is... :bbanana:


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

its crazy to think you could hold one person guilty for the actions and history of their country of origin. Its not like americans are squeaky clean either and it would be stupid of me to hold you people accountable for any wrong doings or political stance your contry/govt has had in the past.
Yao is a basketball player, and a damn good one, yes he is also chinese and he also is very media friendly and hasnt put a foot wrong at all. it just seems a waste to turn him into a political agenda.


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## blazerfan4life (Dec 31, 2002)

i wouldn't mind seeing some new blood in the ALL-STAR GAME....SHAQ is SHAQ and he will in the game starter or not....besides...i have YAO on my fantasy team some more power to him.....lol


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## JayBlazerFan (Jan 3, 2003)

*The truth...Jan 17*

Houston vs. Lakers on Fri, Jan. 17. 

Shaq will break the chinese "All-Star" center in half (3'9'" for those looking for the pieces).

Yao will look like a "fortune cookie" after Shaq has his way.


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## HBM (Oct 17, 2002)

OK, I'm guilty.

I have voted for Yao maybe 10 times, if for nothing else, because I dislike Shaq.

But hey, it's the system they use, so don't blame me


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

*Re: The truth...Jan 17*



> Originally posted by <b>JayBlazerFan</b>!
> Houston vs. Lakers on Fri, Jan. 17.
> 
> Shaq will break the chinese "All-Star" center in half (3'9'" for those looking for the pieces).
> ...


Please tell me you were quoting someone when you said the fortune cookie thing... please ...

STuart


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## bintim70 (Dec 31, 2002)

*Enemies?*

OK we can't like Sabas because he is Lithuanian and played for the Russians during the cold war days.......and Vlade was in a combloc country, etc. etc.

I think the more we see of foreign players and the fact that they are human just like us.....and love basketball just like us will help human relations in the long run. I don't want to Nuke Yao and maybe they don't want to Nuke Shaq......basketball is something we have in common. Being human has nothing to do with politics......but then I'm old and senile and probably need a nap.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BlayZa</b>!
> its crazy to think you could hold one person guilty for the actions and history of their country of origin. Its not like americans are squeaky clean either and it would be stupid of me to hold you people accountable for any wrong doings or political stance your contry/govt has had in the past.
> Yao is a basketball player, and a damn good one, yes he is also chinese and he also is very media friendly and hasnt put a foot wrong at all. it just seems a waste to turn him into a political agenda.


I don't begrudge Yao's success for Yao's sake. I DO begrudge that his success is being used by a regime with a horrible history regarding free speech, political freedom and other human rights.

The main reason I brought this up is the "Chinese people are NBA fans, too" argument. The fact is that the Chinese government controls what its people see and read and they have determined that the NBA helps their regime... and I am not sure that the NBA as a responsible American corporation ought to be making it a priority to help out such an oppressive government.

ESPECIALLY if it means we see worse players starting in the all-star game than we otherwise would 

Ed O.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: Enemies?*



> Originally posted by <b>bintim70</b>!
> OK we can't like Sabas because he is Lithuanian and played for the Russians during the cold war days.......and Vlade was in a combloc country, etc. etc.


I hate to be rude, but in order to try to argue against a position, it's best to get facts at least somewhat correct first 

Sabonis played for the USSR, not the Russians. He would have preferred to play for his homeland, Lithuania (as he was able to later after the Soviet breakup), but because of the Soviet stranglehold on the Baltic countries he wasn't able to.



> I think the more we see of foreign players and the fact that they are human just like us.....and love basketball just like us will help human relations in the long run.


I agree that open and free communications between nations and their people is a good idea, and I am confident enough in our political and economic system to know that once the door to that way of life is opened (even a crack) it will eventually prevail.

I am a bit conflicted, then, when I take some issue with the nature of the internet-based voting for the all-star game, and how it's a natural advantage for Yao and any other Chinese player that is placed on the ticket.



> I don't want to Nuke Yao and maybe they don't want to Nuke Shaq......basketball is something we have in common. Being human has nothing to do with politics......but then I'm old and senile and probably need a nap.


Politics are a human truth inherent in anything we do at a macro level, I think. To ignore international politics and the military underpinnings involved means that you better hope that other people in your country ARE paying attention to these matters.

Ed O.


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## brad-z (Jan 2, 2003)

Well, I can only see the benefits to Yao being on our soil. I don't know how we should deal with China because they are very dangerous. I truly think that we are just going with China in hopes that they will change on their own. I do know that if Yao suddenly gets called home for no apparent reason, I am taking a trip to Australia. 

The All Star game is basically just a marketing thing that risks injuries to players in the middle of the season. It is fun to watch and it is not that big of a deal. 

When fans vote, you get what you get. I don't know why the coaches even get to choose any of the players. That to me always seems unfair itself.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

*Re: Re: Enemies?*



> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> I agree that open and free communications between nations and their people is a good idea, and I am confident enough in our political and economic system to know that once the door to that way of life is opened (even a crack) it will eventually prevail.


But you are against the NBA exporting its product to China? Isn't the NBA really selling American culture? If you disapprove of the current regime in China, wouldn't increased internal demand for baggy shorts, cornrows, and Blazer Dancers tend to destabilize them? 

And you are against allowing the Chinese people to participate in a democratic election? Wouldn't participation in elections, especially elections that their side wins, tend to promote democracy in China? 

Are you in favor of trade with China at all, Ed? If not the NBA, what would you export to China? How do you feel about our policy towards Cuba?

barfo


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

I think Yao Ming does nothing but improve relations between China and the United States. He also gives people like me a face, although I wasn't born in the states, its good to have an Asian person represented in the media (long long overdue) 

I am not biased to the point of stupidity and I assume that if Yao was really sucking it up, he definitely wouldn't be leading in all-star votes. 

Like I said, Yao is a deserving player and would likely make the all-star team anyways. In December the guy averaged 17pts 10rebs and 2.7 blks while shooting over 55% from the field, over 85% from the line and he is improving with each game. Those are all-star numbers, droves of Chinese fans or not.

To single him out simply because he is from China and not the likes of other undeserving players receiving votes such as Vince Carter and Grant Hill really makes me lose respect for your argument.

STuart


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

I got this from clutchcity.net (Rockets forum)

_"It happens to the best of us," O'Neal said. "When I came in, I beat out Patrick Ewing. 

"He's making history for his people. His people are proud of him. They should be. One billion people -- that's tough to beat." _

ALSO...

From the Houston Chronicle's Johnathan Feigen _

"There is, however, one other bit of a surprise waiting for O'Neal. Yao no doubt received Internet support from China. But NBA spokesman Tim Frank said on Thursday that Yao was also leading in the "paper balloting" available in arenas and retail outlets in the United States."_


STuart


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>s a b a s 11</b>!
> To single him out simply because he is from China and not the likes of other undeserving players receiving votes such as Vince Carter and Grant Hill really makes me lose respect for your argument.


You can respect my argument or not, but any use of Vince Carter or Grant Hill to justify fans over-voting for Yao is not very justifiable, IMO.

Grant Hill has played at a high level this year. He's been hurt off and on, but he's been pretty darn good when he's played. Carter has, obviously, been hurt much more.

Do either of these players deserve to be where they are in the voting? Not in my opinion. Do they have a significant track record of success in the NBA? Absolutely. Are they leading the BEST PLAYER IN THE NBA in voting? No.

Yao is a rookie. He hasn't done diddly squat; he's probably not even the best rookie so far this year... Amare Stoudemire's been better than Yao, and he's 2 years younger!

I'm glad that he makes some members of an under-represented ethnicity feel better about themselves... but I don't give a darn about it in the context of who deserves to start on the All-Star team. If I wanted to follow a social-consciousness association, I'm sure I could follow one of a variety of instititions or organizations.

I watch the NBA and to me race doesn't (and shouldn't) matter on the floor. Period. And if you want to lose respect for my argument because race is not on my radar screen like it is on yours: fine, but don't expect me to change my paradigm based on your values.

Ed O.


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

Well like someone stated b4, the voting is for who the people want to see starting , and to a lot of people its a relief to finally have another choice for a decent C on the West. I voted for him because...
1. he is new and fresh
2. v.good rookie performing on a team that already has an established franchise player.
3. isnt shaq.

Why is Carter doing so well? People remember the dunks, the through the legs from tmac ... its etched into a lot of people that are casual NBA fans - everyone that follows it as closely as we do wouldnt vote for him to start because we know he doesnt deserve it due to lack of game play and performance.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Enemies?*



> Originally posted by <b>barfo</b>!
> 
> But you are against the NBA exporting its product to China? Isn't the NBA really selling American culture? If you disapprove of the current regime in China, wouldn't increased internal demand for baggy shorts, cornrows, and Blazer Dancers tend to destabilize them?


Maybe; I admitted I was conflicted. My current opinion is that China is attempting to co-opt certain aspects of external culture to legitimize its own existence but control it as much as possible. Their attempts to regulate the internet (and American companies' efforts to comply with Chinese laws) are an example of the type of control they are willing to exercise on an external situation before it gets to the Chinese people.

In the athletic context, they will train players for international and NBA competition, but they will retain the ability to recall these players at any point and keep whatever portion of their salary that they deem appropriate. They will restrict the players' individual liberties while beating the drum of Chinese progress in the athletic arenas. 

It's pretty similar to what the Soviets did, but China is just loosening the reigns a little bit by allowing their players to participate in the US, and not just in Europe and their own internal leagues. There's more danger there for them, but there's also greater reward both domestically (where their people see their government as able to produce talent capable of competing with the best in the world) and in the U.S. (where people see the softer, gentler side of the Chinese government and find it easier to forget or ignore its occupation of Tibet and its political imprisonment of Falun Gong practicioners).



> And you are against allowing the Chinese people to participate in a democratic election? Wouldn't participation in elections, especially elections that their side wins, tend to promote democracy in China?


I don't know where you got this. The Chinese government is, almost by definition, against allowing a democratic election. In any event, a democratic election without basic human freedoms of speech and political association aren't really elections at all (see: Cuba).

(Edit: I added this paragraph)
Ah, I see what you mean... wouldn't being able to vote on a computer as to who starts in the All-Star game give the Chinese citizenry a tast of democracy. I seriously doubt it. Intellectually I am sure most Chinese people can grasp the concept of being able to vote, but being able to vote for such a mundane thing (who's going to vote AGAINST Yao, after all?) is a far cry from being allowed the freedoms that are requisite of a true representative governmental process.



> Are you in favor of trade with China at all, Ed? If not the NBA, what would you export to China?


I don't think I know enough about the intricacies of trade with China to comment generally. 

One key complicating factor is that if we didn't trade China, say, pneumatic pumps, they'd just get them from another source (Europe, Japan, etc.)... the U.S. would be denying itself (and, more directly, its corporations) profit opportunities while not really directly affecting the government of China. With the NBA, there's really no professional basketball league in the world that can hold a candle to it; there IS no replacement that allows the Chinese government to get as much propagana mileage out of its athletes. By not dealing with China, then, the NBA would be able to do more good than an American supplier of pneumatic pumps.



> How do you feel about our policy towards Cuba?


I don't think we should trade with Cuba. Castro and the people that followed him into revolution made a deal with the devil when they overthrew their government and put in place a Communist regime: they were in the Soviet camp. Now, with the USSR gone and Cuba and North Korea standing about alone as the last bastions of totalitarian socialism, I think we should continue to shun Cuba economically until they put into place laws and freedoms that we expect from countries we deal with. Castro, of course, has propped up his own power at the expense of his people these decades and I can't conceive of him ceding as much as it would take to get Cuba back into the U.S.'s good graces, so I think we'll have to wait for Castro to expire before relations normalize.

Any other geopolitical situations you want me to pontificate on? I'd be happy to give you my take on North Korea, too, if you'd like it 

Ed O.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> To me, there are two issues:
> 
> ...


#2 is the most puzzling to me. I view Texas as a hostile area (after all, the leader of the junta that took control of this country is from there), but I don't particularly care whether Texas NBA fans make an impact on voting for an All-Star game.

In a more serious vein, there's nothing that says the NBA is a purely American thing and, by rights, only Americans should be able to affect fan voting. Anyone who is a fan should be able to vote, if the NBA has things set up for overseas voting. I don't really understand your viewpoint on what national border has to do with who is a fan and who can vote.

Regarding #1, it's definitely a case of different opinions on what the All-Star game is about. If you view it as an official honour bestowed carefully upon the very best players at each position, then there shouldn't be any fan voting. Each spot should be chosen by some panel of experts, like anything else that's official. However, if you view it as an exhibition game for fans to see _who they *want* to see_, then there's no problem. Shaq may be better, but Ming is who fans are more interested in watching play.

Personally, the fact that fans vote on it make me believe the second case is truer. It's not an official pronouncement on the best in the league (All-NBA is more for that), it's just an exhibition for the fans to see who they'd rather watch play basketball. In that case, I agree with the voting...I'd much rather watch Ming play, as he plays more a graceful, interesting game than Shaq does. Further, Vince Carter isn't nearly the best player in the East, but he may be the most fun to watch.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Enemies?*



> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> Maybe; I admitted I was conflicted. My current opinion is that China is attempting to co-opt certain aspects of external culture to legitimize its own existence but control it as much as possible. Their attempts to regulate the internet (and American companies' efforts to comply with Chinese laws) are an example of the type of control they are willing to exercise on an external situation before it gets to the Chinese people.


I view that as an attempt doomed to failure; kids WILL look at porn sites. And porn leads to democracy, just as surely as pot leads to heroin. Or something like that...  



> In the athletic context, they will train players for international and NBA competition, but they will retain the ability to recall these players at any point and keep whatever portion of their salary that they deem appropriate.


We do the latter also, we call it 'taxation'. Just a joke for the Republicans in the audience.



> There's more danger there for them, but there's also greater reward both domestically (where their people see their government as able to produce talent capable of competing with the best in the world) and in the U.S. (where people see the softer, gentler side of the Chinese government and find it easier to forget or ignore its occupation of Tibet and its political imprisonment of Falun Gong practicioners).


I think it is MUCH more dangerous for them. Letting a US marketing machine like the NBA into your country is no small thing. I believe the NBA knows more about marketing than the Chinese government.



> I don't know where you got this. The Chinese government is, almost by definition, against allowing a democratic election. In any event, a democratic election without basic human freedoms of speech and political association aren't really elections at all (see: Cuba).


Sorry, I meant the election for the NBA allstar game!



> By not dealing with China, then, the NBA would be able to do more good than an American supplier of pneumatic pumps.


If you accept the argument that dealing with the Chinese hurts our interest, and staying clear helps it. I tend to be in the opposite camp, especially for something as lifestyles-of-the-rich-and-famous oriented as the NBA. 



> Any other geopolitical situations you want me to pontificate on? I'd be happy to give you my take on North Korea, too, if you'd like it


In fact, quite seriously, I would. I'd offer my take, but frankly I don't have one right now (my puppet masters at DNC headquarters have not yet initiated the transmission) 

barfo


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> #2 is the most puzzling to me. I view Texas as a hostile area (after all, the leader of the junta that took control of this country is from there), but I don't particularly care whether Texas NBA fans make an impact on voting for an All-Star game.


Um. Yeah. Funny how so many Bush-bashers think he's an evil genius and a total moron at the same time.



> In a more serious vein, there's nothing that says the NBA is a purely American thing and, by rights, only Americans should be able to affect fan voting. Anyone who is a fan should be able to vote, if the NBA has things set up for overseas voting. I don't really understand your viewpoint on what national border has to do with who is a fan and who can vote.


I don't begrudge the fans overseas (or in Mexico or South America) who vote... not at all. I think that the NBA is making a mistake by opening up the voting so widely. I think at some point American fans, who form the foundation for the league's success, will feel alienated if the NBA's internationalization plan succeeds as they hope it does.

People have complained about LA and NY dominating all-star voting for a long time... well, there are two NBA teams in each of those markets. In China, there's not only not two teams, and not only one team, but there's ONE PLAYER on the ballot from their country. Of course that's going to bias the ballot. If I was going to eat in a restaurant as a vegetarian and there was only one non-meat item on the menu, I'd order it.



> Regarding #1, it's definitely a case of different opinions on what the All-Star game is about. If you view it as an official honour bestowed carefully upon the very best players at each position, then there shouldn't be any fan voting. Each spot should be chosen by some panel of experts, like anything else that's official. However, if you view it as an exhibition game for fans to see _who they *want* to see_, then there's no problem. Shaq may be better, but Ming is who fans are more interested in watching play.


We agree here: maybe I want the All-Star game to be something it's not. To this point, with a few notable exceptions, the All-Star game has featured the best players year in and year out. With niche marketing and the expansion of the voting world-wide, there's going to be a dilution in decision-making that's going to adversely affect the game's integrity.

Ed O.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> Um. Yeah. Funny how so many Bush-bashers think he's an evil genius and a total moron at the same time.


Who said anything about his being an evil genius? Unfortunately, requesting your campaign chairwoman and, coincidentally, secretary of state in a key swing state to, long before the election, remove as many eligible black voters from the voting rolls, doesn't take brilliance.



> I don't begrudge the fans overseas (or in Mexico or South America) who vote... not at all. I think that the NBA is making a mistake by opening up the voting so widely. I think at some point American fans, who form the foundation for the league's success, will feel alienated if the NBA's internationalization plan succeeds as they hope it does.


I think you put too much stock in the importance of the All-Star game. Most people I know are interested in watching the All-Star game sometimes, but as an often unwelcome diversion from the real games (since no games happen for like five straight days). I'd be rather amazed if All-Star voting ended up being a cause for American fans to feel alienated from the league. From All-Star voting, _maybe_, but even if so, who cares? It's not the driving force of the league's popularity.

Besides, as a similar, older issue, people have argued that allowing so many foreign players to play in the league would alienate Joe Six-Pack from watching the game, because he's used to seeing guys with names like Joe and Mike and Chris...not Pedrag and Arvydas and all the rest. However, so far the league's popularity has soared compared with any other era of the NBA and compared to other professional sports in the league. David Stern and his zeal for internationalizing the game have been given the lion's share of the credit for that.



> With niche marketing and the expansion of the voting world-wide, there's going to be a dilution in decision-making that's going to adversely affect the game's integrity.


I'd argue that there is no integrity to be adversely affected. The game is *not* a rigorous selection of the best players in the league. If it's often played out that way, that's partly incidental. The game is for who the fans most want to see...i.e. a popularity contest. As it happens, unsurprisingly, as a general rule the best players are the most popular. So, where you get that overlap (which is probably 80-90% of the time), you get the best players selected. However, sometimes the most entertaining, popular player isn't the best. That's when you get a non-best player chosen. I'd suggest that that's the point of the game...letting the most popular players play for fans to watch. If you're interested in the very best, I'd think All-NBA is your best bet. There are plenty of controversies with All-NBA, but at least the point of it is in line with what you want: The best players at every position.


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

hey minstrel i assume u have read Michael Moores Stupid White Men book then


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

my fav part in that book about Bush is where he said his fav book when he was a child was The Very Hungry Caterpillar , funny thing the book wasnt even pressed till the year after he left college lol


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## FeloniusThunk (Jan 1, 2003)

Gotta say, Ed, I find this a little disappointing. The Americans are clever enough to vote for Vince Carter and Grant Hill based on their past peformances, while the Chinese internet voters can only vote along some nationalist lines. Should German votes count? Russian? Is this also going to be a problem if an Indian player is in the NBA? If we're going to be troubled by fans voting by their regional or ethnic biases, where is the line drawn for what's acceptable? I don't discount fan bias (many folks here have actually voted for guys like Sabonis, for example), but I find it simpler to explain Yao's votes as him being more popular right now than Shaq: fans, American and not, are just more excited about him.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

BlayZa -

I haven't had a chance to finish the book (I find, unfortunately, I don't have the time for long periods of uninterrupted reading of late), but you certainly nailed which book I've partially read.


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## Paxil (Jan 1, 2003)

I doubt Shaq will play in the all-star game if he isn't voted as a starter. I will have some toe ailment come up that.... umm.... needs some rest. 

Ed O, I would be all for having the all-star game be about the best players, no fan voting... if they could figure out a way to do it. I doubt it is possible though. It would most likely just turn out to be who the NBA wanted to market. 

I know the NBA played a few games overseas... and some preseason stuff... but I doubt their International push is very aggressive. I'm sure they try to allow NBA merchandise to be sold everywhere... but I am not sure it goes much beyond that. I am like for foreign influx into the NBA though... there are rabid basketball fans everywhere... and though we have the NBA... there is some amazing basketball (and amazing fans) overseas. To me... the NBA was dieing until the influx of foreign players. Bunch of players who could jump out the roof... but couldn't shoot. Or who could dunk... but couldn't do anything else. To me it was just ugly (and a lot of it still is)


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FeloniusThunk</b>!
> Gotta say, Ed, I find this a little disappointing. The Americans are clever enough to vote for Vince Carter and Grant Hill based on their past peformances, while the Chinese internet voters can only vote along some nationalist lines. Should German votes count? Russian? Is this also going to be a problem if an Indian player is in the NBA? If we're going to be troubled by fans voting by their regional or ethnic biases, where is the line drawn for what's acceptable? I don't discount fan bias (many folks here have actually voted for guys like Sabonis, for example), but I find it simpler to explain Yao's votes as him being more popular right now than Shaq: fans, American and not, are just more excited about him.


It's not a matter of being more clever or insightful. It's about having access to information.

Were NBA games being shown in China before Yao's presence? Are many current games being shown that don't have Yao in them? How can Chinese fans possibly know much about the history of most of the players in the NBA? Did they get televised LSU games when Shaq was there?

I doubt it, although I'm not sure.

Does Germany control television and radio transmissions like China does? Does Russia? No and I don't believe so (respectively). Do Germany and Russia feature a multitude of players in numerous international leagues? Yes.

China sure doesn't. According to Eurobasket (asia-basket.com), they have FOUR players abroad: 3 in the NBA and one (Lim Bou Nam) who's a naturalized Swiss citizen and plays for Reusbuhl. Germany has about 50 (some of whom are naturalized citizens) players abroad (not including a couple dozen college kids), and Russia has almost as many.

I can understand the tendency to compare different countries to China here, but there's huge differences and I hope that this helps explain the distinction that I am drawing.

Sorry if you're still disappointed.

Ed O.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Who said anything about his being an evil genius? Unfortunately, requesting your campaign chairwoman and, coincidentally, secretary of state in a key swing state to, long before the election, remove as many eligible black voters from the voting rolls, doesn't take brilliance.


I see. Is that about the time that he rigged the past elections to take control of the Senate and strengthen control of the House?

And did he have JFK assassinated and rig the "moon landing", too?

Man... talk about sore losers  

Ed O.


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

There were at least 2-3 NBA games a week shown in China before anyone in the states knew Yao's, Wangs, or Mengke's name. I've read there is about 4 games a week televised since Yao Mings arrival. 

My grandma can attest to that, although I would have to translate. She is Chinese, lives there now and is a huge NBA fan (believe it) 

I've been to visit (last time a couple years ago) and I was lucky to catch a couple games while I was there (though tape-delayed) 

You'll be shocked at how many Chinese play basketball (as I was when I went to the courts) and have knowledge of the NBA. Like Mexico, China has an official monthly NBA magazine that is available at all the newspaper stands.

STuart


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

another .02
chinese make up a decent chunk of the card collectors out there too. out of the serious 20 i know here, at least 6 are chinese that i can recall and they arent all buying Yao RC , theres a McDyess collector , Van Exel , and 2 jason williams (grizz) collectors, out there forking out cash for the the memoribilia of the sport they love. I know for sure 2 of them were born in nz but im pretty sure the rest moved here from China. 
Ive never had anything but fun with them on the court too =]


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Let me make a quick clarification of some of the things I've said: I don't hold ANY antipathy towards the people of China. I am not a fan of their government, and I think that the people of China should have more rights, but that's a different matter than how I might have come across.

Secondly: I don't give a hoot about a person's ethnicity in this (or generally, for that matter). If China were filled with a billion blond-haired, blue-eyed (or black-haired, brown-eyed) citizens, living under the same regime, my position would be the same.

Thanks, STuart and BlayZa for sharing your experiences with Chinese fans. I'm happy to hear they're getting to enjoy the NBA and the game of basketball.

Ed O.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> I see. Is that about the time that he rigged the past elections to take control of the Senate and strengthen control of the House?
> 
> And did he have JFK assassinated and rig the "moon landing", too?


Well, this was reported by the BBC, New York Times and Washington Post. Broken first by the BBC, because unlike American press, it's not a press agent for the rich.



> Man... talk about sore losers


I don't blame you for being ignorant, and thus mocking, Ed. I'm sure, like most Americans, you never look at news written outside this country...I won't hold your lack of knowledge against you.

But I would note that immediately going into mocking mode, when you weren't mocked yourself, isn't exactly a sign of maturity or adult-level conversation. You're aware of that right?


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## Arizona Bay (Jan 3, 2003)

In the sense that I really enjoy watching Yao play, and consider myself a Yao fan, I hope he makes the All-Star team.

But to start?

That just doesn't seem right.


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## JayBlazerFan (Jan 3, 2003)

*pResident Bush*



> Funny how so many Bush-bashers think he's an evil genius and a total moron at the same time.


Bush is not funny.
:sigh: 

Bush is not an evil genius.
:sigh: 

Bush is not an total moron.
:sigh: 


What I believe... is that Bush in an inarticulate doofus. A silver spooned [email protected]@ whose repeated failures have been bailed out by his Daddy friend's $$$.

A pawn of the rich oil interests. And BIG business. Bush is leading all right. Leading the American electorate toward financial and geopolitical ruin.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Well, this was reported by the BBC, New York Times and Washington Post. Broken first by the BBC, because unlike American press, it's not a press agent for the rich.


The fake moon landing was reported in BBC? Wow, it MUST have been all a trick of the military industrial complex.

Assuming you mean the "fixing" of the Florida electorate: I'm quite aware of both domestic and non-American press reports on the issue. It's a bunch of hooey from what I've seen so far. Removing felons from voting lists is a far thing from aiming to stop blacks from voting against Republicans. The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights report about the disenfranchisement of certain voting groups was partisan tripe.



> I don't blame you for being ignorant, and thus mocking, Ed. I'm sure, like most Americans, you never look at news written outside this country...I won't hold your lack of knowledge against you.


Glad you're so enlightened as to pass off anyone who disagrees with you as ignorant  You have no idea what I know or what I read or think so you can keep your patronizing attitude, thank you very much.



> But I would note that immediately going into mocking mode, when you weren't mocked yourself, isn't exactly a sign of maturity or adult-level conversation. You're aware of that right?


So calling the current administration in Washington a "junta" is not baiting the people who support George Bush? I think that mocking conspiracy theories is a more mature act to calling liberals and Democrats generally names in return... which is what I REALLY wanted to do 

Ed O.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> Assuming you mean the "fixing" of the Florida electorate: I'm quite aware of both domestic and non-American press reports on the issue. It's a bunch of hooey from what I've seen so far. Removing felons from voting lists is a far thing from aiming to stop blacks from voting against Republicans.


So then you aren't very aware of what happened. Kathleen Harris also removed people with similar last names as felons and similar birth dates as felons, thus removing people who were perfectly elgible voters. These voters were then turned away from voting booths by police.



> Glad you're so enlightened as to pass off anyone who disagrees with you as ignorant


No, "ignorant" means lacking knowledge. I didn't say you were ignorant for disagreeing with me. I said you were ignorant about eligible black voters being removed from voting rolls. As you can see, that's perfectly appropriate as per the definition. You lacked that knowledge.



> You have no idea what I know or what I read or think so you can keep your patronizing attitude, thank you very much.


I patronized you because you turned mocking. It would have been more enlightened of me to continue to treat you with respect, but by making silly references to the moon landings and JFK assassination, you seemed not to desire respect.



> So calling the current administration in Washington a "junta" is not baiting the people who support George Bush?


It's not mocking of you, unless you feel you are George Bush. In which case, you have an identity crisis on your hands. Just as fans calling Shawn Kemp "Klump," in years past, was not considered insulting Blazers fans.

You're stretching, Ed, to try and justify your immature response. You can do better.


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

hehe dont make me start quoting from the Stupid White Men book about Bush 
MM rips him to pieces HARD and with facts.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Actually, I think I'm going to excuse myself from this discussion about Bush and the legitimacy of his election. While I have my reasonably strong convictions about this matter, one could argue it's off the topic of the forum.

I do recommend the book BlayZa mentioned, Michael Moore's "Stupid White Men," to anyone interested in the whole issue. It's a factual account of the situation, without worrying about chads and all of that.

Also, on the topic of Michael Moore, I'd recommend the film, "Bowling For Columbine." Very interesting, and both funny and disturbing...a look at the high violent crime rate in this country and the whole issue of gun control.

Ed, perhaps we both said things we shouldn't have or used tones we shouldn't have. I'll officially blame myself for making an off-topic joke about Texas and Bush.  While I think it's quite true, it wasn't basketball related.

That's my last on Bush...I'll still discuss Yao Ming and the internationalism of the game though.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Ed, perhaps we both said things we shouldn't have or used tones we shouldn't have. I'll officially blame myself for making an off-topic joke about Texas and Bush.  While I think it's quite true, it wasn't basketball related.


I'm more than happy to stop discussing it and get back to basketball (or at least one step removed from it, with regards to the NBA's internationalization) 

Ed O.


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

heres an idea
Ming for President


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

*a little further off course we go...*

LOVED Bowling for Columbine, the scene at KMart headquarters, although started a little cheesy ended up being so inspiring. I love Michael Moore, so much so that I ordered his first documentary- 

Roger and Me.

Heard great things about this film. Its about time that I saw it seeing as I am from Michigan.

STuart


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

for those that are reading and are curious about this moore character , check out www.michaelmoore.com 

probably not the best if you're really into Bush cause this guy is quite the extreme opposite.


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