# Peja is better than Marion



## KingsMan7 (Jun 27, 2002)

For some reason, it has become all the rage to wildly overrate Marion while wildly disrespect Peja when general users are rating Sf's. Whenever somebody makes a 'top 5' list, you will usually see Marion at around 3 and you'd be hard pressed to see Peja on any top 5's whatsoever. How quickly that change has come... 

But people are fickle, after the 2001 playoffs round 1 Kings vrs Suns, when Peja summarily busted Marions a$$, people were all for acknowledging that Peja was the better SF. Marion outplayed Peja in Game 1 of that series in what was both their breakout season's and first playoff tastes, but in game 2, 3, and 4, Peja scored 20+ while Marion scored no more than 14, including a series clinching 37/6 to Marion's 14/8 in Game 4. 

It wasn't really until Peja's injured playoff stint this year when the disrespect came... 

2001-2002 head to head 

Game 1 114-88 Suns 
Peja 29 2-8 0-1 2-2 0 2 2 2 2 1 2 1 6 
Shawn38 10-20 0-0 1-2 6 7 13 2 1 3 1 2 21 
Game 2 133-101 Kings 
Peja 40 11-23 3-7 1-2 2 6 8 3 0 0 0 0 26 
Shawn32 7-17 1-1 5-5 2 3 5 3 2 3 2 0 20 
Game 3 118-112 Kings 
Peja 40 10-16 3-5 2-2 1 2 3 4 3 2 1 0 25 
Shawn43 6-19 0-0 2-5 4 4 8 4 4 0 2 1 14 
Game 4 103-100 Kings 
Peja 46 7-20 1-3 10-12 2 6 8 5 0 2 1 0 25 
Shawn45 9-20 0-1 0-0 1 5 6 4 4 2 0 0 18 

So as we can see, in every game except for game 1 when the entire team didn't show up and Peja had his 2nd worst outing of the year, most people would rather have Peja in that equation. 

Shawn is the best rebounding SF in the game and a better rebounder than Peja, for that he should be given a lot of credit for. 

Defensively, they are around the same. The stereotype that Peja doesn't play defense is one of the biggest myths currently floating around the fans of the association, he is a good defender (if you want to argue that, bring it, we will compare box scores). Marion is a lot quicker on the perimiter, while Peja is stronger. 

Their offenses however, are not close. Marion is strictly a mid-range jumpshooter and open-court player without handles or any sense of individual offensive game. Whereas Peja could be 'the man', if he was ever on a team where he was the number 1 option. The only reason he averages only a shade over 21 to Marions shade over 19 is because he has the best teammates in the league offensively, if he were on that Suns team instead of Marion he would have averaged anywhere from 23 to 26 ppg a game last year (just as he averaged 23.7 a game without C-Webb this year).


----------



## thrice911 (Jul 15, 2002)

I agree that Peja is underated and should be considered a better Sf because he has accomplished more so far in his career then Marion, but you are basing a lot of your argument on a single series of games. If you compared their complete season stats from the past season I think an argument could be made that Marion had the better year.


----------



## SikHandlez24 (Jun 8, 2002)

Another argument could be made that he favors Peja over Marion because he is a Kings fan.


----------



## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Marion DOES have a 3-point shot. It has been improving, and he can dunk waaay better than Peja. He's also, like you said, a much better rebounder. I'd personally take Marion over Peja right now because he's developed a much better shot, and it's only going to get better. However, I still agree that right now, and probably longer as Peja will also improve, Peja is the better offensive player. I'd still take Marion over him though, he's more of a complete package.


----------



## thrice911 (Jul 15, 2002)

Yes, I also noticed that this season Marion had developed a consistent jumper and that he now has 3 point range on his shot(at least he appeared to in all of the games I saw him play in). I would also rather have Marion on my team than Peja because he is a very quick defender that can block shots and get steals, is a tremendous rebounder, and is a consistent scorer who still has the potential to become better on the offensive end. I agree that he is more of a complete package than Peja.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Budweiser_Boy *
> Marion DOES have a 3-point shot. It has been improving, and he can dunk waaay better than Peja. He's also, like you said, a much better rebounder. I'd personally take Marion over Peja right now because he's developed a much better shot, and it's only going to get better. However, I still agree that right now, and probably longer as Peja will also improve, Peja is the better offensive player. I'd still take Marion over him though, he's more of a complete package.


I agree-Peja is underrated....but I would still take Marion


----------



## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

The Matrix is AWESOME,but Peja is even BETTER!If Peja would have been 100% in the WCF,the Kings would have one a CHAMPIONSHIP!

The Matrix = Great rebounder for his size,and AWESOME dunker!

Peja = VERY solid all-around baller,not to mention the BEST 3pt shooter in the league!


----------



## azcats (Jul 15, 2002)

*marion is tight*

I like Peja and Marion (my 2 favorite teams) and I watch a lot of each and I would have to take Marion it seemed at the end of the year he was automatic from 15 feet in and imprving on 3's he is now in my mind a good 3-point shooter. Also he has more upside is more athletic and is funner to watch. Now why would you take peja again?


----------



## PhatDaddy3100 (Jun 16, 2002)

IMO Besides on this board, Marion is underrated also by non super fans like us. More people know more about Peja than they do Marion. On this board, more people know about Marion and his awesome skills. Your right Peja is a good SF, but I would take KG, T-Mac, Vince, Marion over him any day. Peja has a better offensive game, but Marion has a better defensive game and is very consistent on the offensive end. He averaged like 20 ppg and 10 rebounds a game. So, I say its marion over peja.


----------



## tenkev (Jun 12, 2002)

Don't forget that Peja's offensive stats were very much helped by the wide open style that the Kings play. Marion is a much more complete player than Peja. The only thing Peja can do better is shoot.


----------



## bebop (Jul 17, 2002)

Marion is an excellent role player. Peja is a franchise player.

Keep in mind Peja is still trying to find his role within the Kings' offense. When Peja was the #1 offensive option, he killed the opponents. He played his best ball when C-Web was out. He didn't just carried the Kings, he carried them to the best record in the NBA. That's text book definition of a franchise player.

The Matrix is a good supporting player who put up impressive numbers. But you don't build your team around him. You can build your team arond a big-time scorer like Peja, like the Pacers did with Reggie Miller.

And don't judge strictly on numbers. Cuz some fool will compare Kobe to the Marix and say, 

"Wow, Marion has more rebounds, more steals, more block shots, less TO, and shoots higher 3-pt % than Kobe. Marion is better than Kobe!!!"

Would Shaq prefer Matrix to Kobe? Would C-Web rather pass the rock to Marion or Peja? 

Peja is not perfect, nor has he reached his full potential. Right now, he seems too content on being just a scorer when he can be much, mcuh more. But Peja outplayed Marion when they met in the playoffs, that wasn't an accident.


----------



## Solrac (Jul 18, 2002)

I like them both. Peja has that unlimited range and can take a lot of small forwards off the dribble. Now Marion can do a little of everything (rebound,defend, and has developed a nice shot). When was the last time a small forward almost averaged a double double. If I had to choose one.........I couldn't pick though. But, I really like the fact that Marion can defend and rebound...........You also have to remember that they are different players, Peja shoots jumpers 80% of the time...........Marion is getting tip ins, shooting the occasional jumper when open....... the rest of the time he is crashing the boards and playing tough d (straight up and weak side)........Plus, look at the ball hoggin' *** stubborn pg he has to play with.

Rac


----------



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

One nice thing about Marion is the quick release on his shot. He might not be one of the league's best long-range shooters, but from 15 feet he is automatic. And he can get it off virtually whenever he wants. I saw him la couple of years ago against the Wolves, when he had something like 38 points. He was on fire, and absolutely unstoppable with his mid-range game. Just a taste of the future from Marion, who I think will turn out to be the best player from the class of '99.


----------



## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

KingsMan, I've noticed in another thread that you have a HUMONGOUS bias for Peja. HUGE.

Peja may be under-rated, but so is Marion. BIG TIME. When does Shawn Marion ever get talked about? His stats go virtually un-noticed, while everyone in the league LOVES Peja. Don't deny it, and stop thinking everyone's against Peja, cause they're not. Deal with it, and Shawn Marion is STILL better.


----------



## tenkev (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by *bebop *
> Marion is an excellent role player. Peja is a franchise player.


There is no denying that Peja is an excellent, excellent shooter and overall offensive player, but how can you make this statement. Why does everyone always think scoring is the most important thing. Everyone needs to get this straight. DEFENSE wins championships. Look at the Lakers, they excell at defense, hence three straight titles. Who won before them? The Spurs. Obviously a very defensively orientated team. Before the Spurs we had the Bulls. The Bulls probably had the best perimeter defense of any team, ever. Defense wins championships, and Marion is an excellent defender, excellent rebounder, and good scorer. Peja is an average defender, average rebounder, and excellent scorer. I'll take Matrix any day of the week.


----------



## KingsMan7 (Jun 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Budweiser_Boy *
> KingsMan, I've noticed in another thread that you have a HUMONGOUS bias for Peja. HUGE.
> 
> Peja may be under-rated, but so is Marion. BIG TIME. When does Shawn Marion ever get talked about? His stats go virtually un-noticed, while everyone in the league LOVES Peja. Don't deny it, and stop thinking everyone's against Peja, cause they're not. Deal with it, and Shawn Marion is STILL better.




If we had a top 50 list on here, and everyone put down their top 50 players, Marion would probably be in the late teens early 20's, Peja would probably be in the late 30's and early 40's. Peja is the most disrespected player putting up over 21 ppg in the game. I don't know why you think Marion is underrated, everywhere I go on all of these websites including espn insider and foxsports they think Marion is worth the max when they are listing current and future free agents, and the fans are goo-goo over him. Infact whenever I see an underrated list I see Marion and Dre Miller always there, how can they be underrated if everyone thinks their underrated?


----------



## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Marion is not worth the MAX. I don't believe so. However, Peja gets a LOT more coverage than Marion. He is loved by all the networks, and you can't say that's not true. How are you so sure that Marion would be in the 20's and Peja ranked lower than that? You don't know. And even if he IS, that's all about talent, not if they like him more or less. Marion is a better player. He averages almost the same points, and a lot more rebounds, plus he's more athletic and his shot is continually getting better. Not to mention he's a much better defender and dunker.

I thought that's what this thread is about. Not who's more under-rated, or who's more under-appreciated. And because you brought it up, Peja's not under-appreciated. He's not the one who got snubbed of the all star game, Marion is. He's a player coaches from around the league picked to be an all star, not Marion. I think Peja's a great player and an All Star caliber player, but simply put - in my opinion Shawn Marion is the better player.


----------



## Bean the pimp (Jul 15, 2002)

i agree shawn marion is the better player, and yes he will be a superstar in this league


----------



## bebop (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by *tenkev *
> 
> 
> There is no denying that Peja is an excellent, excellent shooter and overall offensive player, but how can you make this statement. Why does everyone always think scoring is the most important thing. Everyone needs to get this straight. DEFENSE wins championships. Look at the Lakers, they excell at defense, hence three straight titles. Who won before them? The Spurs. Obviously a very defensively orientated team. Before the Spurs we had the Bulls. The Bulls probably had the best perimeter defense of any team, ever. Defense wins championships, and Marion is an excellent defender, excellent rebounder, and good scorer. Peja is an average defender, average rebounder, and excellent scorer. I'll take Matrix any day of the week.


Hmmm… you want to know why everyone thinks scoring is the most important thing? 

Duh! Because it is. 

Would you build a team around Vince Carter or Dennis Rodman?? 

Peja is an average defender? What, did you missed two years of Kings basketball? Peja was an average defender when he was a rookie. But he’s been defending very well. I seriously doubt Marion could hold Dirk to 39% from the field like Stojakovic did. Remember in that Dallas series, after Peja was injured and couldn’t play the last game, Notwizki went off with 32 pts and over 50% from the field. Hmmm… I wonder why Dirk only shot 39% against an “average” defender like Peja. 

True, Marion is a better rebounder than Peja. In fact for rebounding, no SF can touch Marion. But Peja is still the MAN. 

Peja is a franchise guy. If he plays for any of the upper-mid to lower NBA barrel, he’d be the guy to build a team around. Heck I can name a few shooters who shot worse from the field than Peja and they’re the “MAN” for their team. This is not knocking the other guys, but Peja is that good.

Somehow, I have a hard time imagining any GM patting Marion on the should and say, “He is our franchise!” Look at Phoenix, they have Matrix, they didn’t make the playoff. Look at Sac, they didn’t have Webber, they ran to the best record in the NBA. 

Notice the difference between a franchise and a role player?


----------



## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

*In response to bebop's post*

ROLE PLAYER?!?!?! Are you kidding? Shawn Marion is no role player. Notice how Peja's supporting cast was much better than Marion's? Notice how the Suns traded away the best point in the game for Stephon Marbury? How the Suns traded away Cliff Robinson for John Wallace? How the Suns have no center?

The Suns' lineup:
PG: Stephon Marbury - a shoot first point guard
SG: Joe Johnson/Penny Hardaway - one's washed up and the other was a rookie
<b>SF: Shawn Marion</b>
PF: Charles Outlaw - a hustle player who averaged a whopping 4.7 points, 4.6 boards with the Suns
C: Jake Tsakalidis/Jake Voshkul - 'nuff said

The Kings' lineup:
PG: Mike Bibby - great clutch player, top 10 PG
SG: Doug Christie - a solid defender
<b>SF: Peja Stojakovic</b>
PF: Chris Webber - all star PF, top 3 PF in the West
C: Vlade Divac - definately an upgrade over the Suns' center position.

Also, the Kings had Bobby Jackson and Scot Pollard off the bench. The Suns had Tom Gugliotta.

Don't bring the playoffs into the argument. The Suns would be the same, if not WORSE with Peja instead of Marion. The Suns need rebounding because of their weak front court, and Shawn provides it. Don't tell me Peja would average 10 rebounds on the Suns. 

And by the way, if I had to choose between Peja and Shawn to build a team around, I'd take Marion, because I'd need a young all around player to start with. Not that Peja's old, but I think 19/10/2 with 1.84 steals and 1.06 blocks on 47% shooting (Marion's stats) is better than 21/5/2.5 with 1.14 steals and .20 blocks on 48% shooting. just my crazy opinion though.


----------



## KingsMan7 (Jun 27, 2002)

Uh, how many points do you think Peja would be averaging if he had the Suns supporting cast around him instead of being stuck in the most talented offense in the league? Peja is averaging only 21 ppg because there are 4 other options on the floor on this Kings team. The argument that this helps him is ridiculous as he averaged 23.7 without C-Webb. Peja's offensive arsenal is far superior to Marion's. Peja can drive, create contact, has a mid range game and a sweet fade. Peja could average 25 points a game if he had a bad ensemble cast and he could also be the 'man' which is something Marion is not capable of. Marion does not have the mentality or game of anything but a role player, he does not create for himself, he has no leadership or taking over a game qualities, he is just a work horse. But I guess we all have our opinions


----------



## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

How do you know what type of mentality Marion has? Hell you never see any Suns games because they're never on TV, unless when they're playing the Kings, so you can't judge. Marion is much more than a role player, and will be. That argument is ridiculous. He's a scorer, a dunker, a good jump shooter, a rebounder, and a defensive player all at once. HARDLY a role player.

Yes, Peja will probably score a bit more on the Suns. But that wasn't my argument. My argument was that the Suns would be even worse because he can't rebound as well as Marion. The Suns have no front court, and therefore depend on Marion for the majority of their rebounding duties. Don't tell me Peja would also average 10 rebounds on the Suns.

And I used the starting lineups argument because bebop mentioned the playoffs. Look at the supporting casts. Which one would you count on to make the playoffs? It's a no-brainer on paper the Kings are much better than the Suns, and they are on the court too. So don't bring up that weak playoffs argument, as Peja would <b>in my opinion</b> make the Suns worse if he were in Phoenix. He's a great player, but Marion fills a need in Phoenix which he could also fill in Sacramento, but Peja fills a need in Sacramento which Phoenix doesn't need.


----------



## bebop (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by *KingsMan7 *
> Uh, how many points do you think Peja would be averaging if he had the Suns supporting cast around him instead of being stuck in the most talented offense in the league? Peja is averaging only 21 ppg because there are 4 other options on the floor on this Kings team. The argument that this helps him is ridiculous as he averaged 23.7 without C-Webb. Peja's offensive arsenal is far superior to Marion's. Peja can drive, create contact, has a mid range game and a sweet fade. Peja could average 25 points a game if he had a bad ensemble cast and he could also be the 'man' which is something Marion is not capable of. Marion does not have the mentality or game of anything but a role player, he does not create for himself, he has no leadership or taking over a game qualities, he is just a work horse. But I guess we all have our opinions



Word. 

And Budweiser_Boy don’t get me wrong, I think Marion is one heck of a player. I’d surely love to have him on the Kings. And I do agree he’d put up all-star numbers running with the Kings. 

But I can’t picture him carrying the Kings with C-Web out.

I’m sure Marion has improved. And I’m sure he’s good enough to be a very dominating player. But I remember Marion as being more comfortable as being a right hand man; rather than THE MAN.

And somehow, I don’t think the Suns will be worse with Peja. He’ll just carry them like he did the Kings (when they played w/o C-Web). He’ll put up more pts and pull down more rebs (hey, with what the Suns have, Peja will pull down 7 rebs just by accident). So if you exchange the Matrix for a guy who avg 26ppt 7 rebs and plays good D, will that get the Suns into the playoff? 

Hmmm.. well probably not. Ok, so you win. The Suns will not make the playoffs with Peja. 

But they’ll finish a heck better than 36-46. Probably closer to .500 ball. 

If Marion carrys the Suns next season to .500 ball, I’ll be right back here, posting Maxtrix tribute and saying he is THE MAN. In fact, I already has a title in mind, “Hey Kid I Got News for You, The MAN is in PHOENIX!!”


----------



## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

The Suns are in re-building mode. They won't make the playoffs next year, but they'll be a borderline miss, probably 9th place. I agree with you on the fact that Peja can carry a team without their star, but who else did he have on the team? Hedo, Bibby, Christie, Divac and Jackson, which is better than a supporting cast of Hardaway/Johnson, Marbury, Outlaw and a no-name center.

I'm not arguing that he didn't lead his team, because he did. If he didn't he wouldn't be an all star. But he clearly had the better supporting cast, and it was a team effort that got them winning with C-Webb out, and with a team like that, things like that are possible. That's how the Raptors won without Vince at the end of the season, everyone started playing like a team. If Marion were on the Suns, I'm sure he'd do as good a job as Peja, maybe a bit better, maybe a bit worse, we don't know. Also, I doubt Peja would average 26 points on the Suns, something a bit less, like 23-24 IMO. But no argument that his rebounds would go up, but Mairon is a good reboundER, while Peja just gets rebounds. Know what I'm saying?

Shawn and Peja are only going to get better, both are all-star worthy in their own ways. Both of their teams are going to improve next season, however the Suns aren't going to make the playoffs because they aren't done re-building and don't have a Reggie Miller type player or a supporting cast, who are re-building and making the playoffs in Indiana.

Next season Peja will probably score a bit more, and so will Marion, as his shot keeps on improving. But in my opinion, right now I would take Shawn Marion over Peja. Who knows what could happen in a few years? Peja could be better, Shawn could be better. Right now, if I were starting a franchise and had to choose between the two, I'd take Marion as my franchise player.


----------



## KingsMan7 (Jun 27, 2002)

As for who is a better fit for the Kings... we don't need any more rebounding with Chris,Vlade,Scot,and even Doug rebounding above average for a 2 guard. 

What we need is someone spreading the floor for our bigs and for Mike's penetration. Marion would only stifle our offense with his lack of passing and his tendency to hang around the lane where we would already have enough bodies down low.


----------



## Bean the pimp (Jul 15, 2002)

I think Peja's scoring average will go down next season...maybe around the 15-16 ppg since Bibby will be more aggressive lookin for his own shot more often, and with Turkulo(?) stealing minutes from Peja


----------



## RyGuY43084 (Jul 15, 2002)

Ok here is the deal!!
Shawn Marion is only 25 years old. He is part of the Suns Future, and with the additions that the suns have made in the off-season they have openly said that they are building around Marbary, and Marion. Add Stoudimire and an improving jake and you have a solid team.
Marion is an Excellent dunker/scorer, as well as rebounder. He is so exciting and i look forward to seeing him in the heart of a suns dominating team in a couple of years...
Peja, is in a situation where a lot of the team is starting to age, however while a good player he is certainly NOT a franchise player!!!!!


----------



## KingsMan7 (Jun 27, 2002)

I still haven't heard anybody explain to me why Peja has owned Marion head-to-head over the course of the last 2 regular seasons and the post season before last. Wouldn't looking at how they have matched up against eachother in game situations be a prime way of determining who the better player overall is, defensively and offensively. Although you have to look at it from an overall team defensive standpoint, are the Kings that much better defensively than the Suns so that it would make a marked difference in Marion's ppg against Peja?


----------



## ViNSaNiTy1127 (Jul 23, 2002)

respect to the guy that made this thread out..but marion is a better basketball player. peja can shoot and.. shoot. marion is amazing at both ends..

can we say..matrix? (god, i hate that movie)


----------



## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

How did Peja "own" Marion? Marion averaged 18 points a game in those 4 games, near his average, and Peja averaged 20 points a game, also near his average. Except Marion had more rebounds, more steals, more blocks, and almost identical assists. Peja did have the better shooting numbers, with the exception to 3 point percentage, but Marion overall had the better series. Peja didn't "own" Marion. If anyone "owned" anyone it was Marion "owning" Peja, which didn't happen. Both players played a good season series, but Marion came out with the better overall stats, while Peja had the better offensive stats.


----------

