# The Melo Thread



## jnrjr79

Given that our last game thread seemed to be turning into a thread about efforts to sign Melo in the offseason, I figured I would start a general Melo thread for us to locate our discussion about him.

So, discuss away. To get the ball rolling, I would note that my preferred method for acquiring Melo is via S&T, as it's the only way to bring over Nikola in the same year (assuming you can get Nikola for the MLE, which is only possibly true, but not definitely so).


----------



## Da Grinch

its worth noting the nuggets offered melo to the bulls in 2010 for noah and deng ...if they had done this deal the bulls might have won a title by now.


----------



## Dornado

Joakim Noah Has Been Recruiting Carmelo Anthony



> After a season spent diving for loose balls, playing with a bad knee and taking over as the facilitator in the Bulls’ offense, there’s little left for center Joakim Noah to do.
> 
> How about recruiter? That might be his most valuable role for a franchise suddenly at a crossroads.
> 
> According to several sources, including a teammate, Noah’s All-Star Weekend “conversation’’ with New York Knicks standout Carmelo Anthony didn’t end in New Orleans. They had discussions via text the rest of the season, including the day after the Bulls were eliminated in the playoffs by the Washington Wizards.
> 
> “I was kidding Jo that they were boys now,’’ a source said in a phone interview Friday. “ ‘Well, get your boy to come to Chicago.’ ’’


----------



## PD

jnrjr79 said:


> Given that our last game thread seemed to be turning into a thread about efforts to sign Melo in the offseason, I figured I would start a general Melo thread for us to locate our discussion about him.
> 
> So, discuss away. To get the ball rolling, I would note that my preferred method for acquiring Melo is via S&T, as it's the only way to bring over Nikola in the same year (assuming you can get Nikola for the MLE, which is only possibly true, but not definitely so).


I agree. Three factors: will Melo be willing to play for the Bulls? Will he be willing to take a paycut to do so? Will The Master do us a favor? 

A trade can definitely jump start the rebuilding processes for both teams. Would the Knicks do Boozer, Dunleavy, and out two picks this year for Melo? 

Noah, Gibson, Melo, Butler, and Rose with Nikola, Snell, and other bench fillers would look nice. Hopefully, we can bring back either Augustin or Hinrich.


----------



## Bogg

I don't see any scenario where the Knicks facilitate a sing-and-trade without getting an excellent haul in return. Two picks in the teens and a pair of one-year rentals with essentially no value to a now-rebuilding team doesn't seem like that kind of package. If Chicago lands Carmelo it's probably going to have to be an outright signing.


----------



## jnrjr79

Bogg said:


> I don't see any scenario where the Knicks facilitate a sing-and-trade without getting an excellent haul in return. Two picks in the teens and a pair of one-year rentals with essentially no value to a now-rebuilding team doesn't seem like that kind of package. If Chicago lands Carmelo it's probably going to have to be an outright signing.



Why don't you see it? Melo is holding most of the cards. If he says to work out a deal with Chicago or he's walking, then NY might as well take some assets they can build with. I don't think the Bulls' two picks this year are something to scoff at relative to nothing.

Now, if Melo has multiple teams on his list, then sure, you might get into a bidding war and have to give up a lot. But I can't understand why Chicago would need to do "an outright signing" to get Melo.


----------



## Bogg

jnrjr79 said:


> Now, if Melo has multiple teams on his list, then sure, you might get into a bidding war and have to give up a lot. *But I can't understand why Chicago would need to do "an outright signing" to get Melo.*


Exactly like you said - if Carmelo makes a free agency tour, other teams can (and will) offer more. The two mid-firsts have value, but having to take back Boozer's contract has negative value, and Dunleavy does absolutely nothing for the Knicks. Unless Chicago starts to be willing to talk about some combination of Gibson/Butler/Mirotic being involved, or at least subs out the Boozer/Dunleavy contracts for a massive traded player exception, they'll be outbid. 




jnrjr79 said:


> *Why don't you see it?* Melo is holding most of the cards. If he says to work out a deal with Chicago or he's walking, then NY might as well take some assets they can build with. I don't think the Bulls' two picks this year are something to scoff at relative to nothing.


Because it's James Dolan, and he's not going to help Carmelo walk. If Anthony's insisting that he get a full max salary where he signs next, and that's why we're doing the trade, then the Knicks are going to spin that to their advantage to either keep him or get a better return from someone else. If Carmelo's going to accept a (relatively) much smaller deal with a contender to try and win a title, it doesn't make any sense for Chicago to give up two first-rounders when they don't have to. Hell, you could probably dump Boozer's contract on the Sixers for only one of those firsts (but it doesn't make sense to even do that when you have the amnesty clause in your back pocket, unless the owner just cheaps out, which is possible).


----------



## yodurk

Bogg said:


> I don't see any scenario where the Knicks facilitate a sing-and-trade without getting an excellent haul in return. Two picks in the teens and a pair of one-year rentals with essentially no value to a now-rebuilding team doesn't seem like that kind of package. If Chicago lands Carmelo it's probably going to have to be an outright signing.


Except there is precedent for this sort of thing...Miami in summer 2010. 

Bosh and Lebron, both publicly stated their destination (Miami) yet their teams still worked out S&T deals to get some assets in return. The assets were not too great but it did give them something (better than nothing).


----------



## yodurk

Da Grinch said:


> its worth noting the nuggets offered melo to the bulls in 2010 for noah and deng ...if they had done this deal the bulls might have won a title by now.


Just curious, what is the Bulls core rotation under that belief?

Rose, ??, Melo, Boozer, Asik
CJ, Ronnie, Korver, Taj

Assumes we would've matched the Asik offer sheet and retained the bench mob for 2011, 2012, 2013, etc.

However the big question mark there by far is whether Rose would've stayed healthy or not. That is the #1 reason the Bulls title hopes were derailed the past few years and would've likely done the same in this hypothetical. If you assume Rose would've stayed healthy, I could see an argument that this team is better than had the trade not been done.


----------



## Bogg

yodurk said:


> Except there is precedent for this sort of thing...Miami in summer 2010.
> 
> Bosh and Lebron, both publicly stated their destination (Miami) yet their teams still worked out S&T deals to get some assets in return. The assets were not too great but it did give them something (better than nothing).


Those guys had already decided to take less money than they could have otherwise gotten and the S&Ts were done simply to give Toronto and Cleveland very low-level assets in return for Lebron and Wade getting one more year on their contracts, not to give them way more money than Miami could have otherwise offered. If you're slapping together $20 million worth of Boozer and Dunleavy it's because Carmelo wants a max contract, and we're back at New York using that as leverage. 

If Carmelo's willing to take a big pay cut to walk outright to Chicago (what he would have to do to make his threat real), why would Chicago _want_ to give up two first-round picks (which they would need to fill out a capped-out roster) in order to give Anthony an extra $7ish million a year (money which they would also need to fill out their roster)? It'd just be a stupid, stupid basketball move.

Now, if Carmelo's willing to sign a reduced-rate contract paying a yearly salary that the Bulls can offer outright, and Chicago wants to give up an asset (like a pick or two) to lock him up for a fifth year? That's different.

EDIT: Of course, all this doesn't even mention that declining to amnesty Boozer takes Chicago out of the free-agent market anyway.


----------



## jnrjr79

Bogg said:


> Exactly like you said - if Carmelo makes a free agency tour, other teams can (and will) offer more.


No. A "tour" doesn't beget that. But, Carmelo deciding there is more than one acceptable team to him does, sure. If you read my post clearly, I'm discussing a scenario where Carmelo decides the Bulls are the team he wants to go to, not provides the Knicks with a list of teams.



> The two mid-firsts have value, but having to take back Boozer's contract has negative value, and Dunleavy does absolutely nothing for the Knicks.


Somewhat false. Boozer would cause NYK to pay some luxury tax relative to losing Melo for nothing. However, they are over the cap next season regardless and have no flexibility. Taking on Boozer either gives them an expiring contract they can try to flip at the trade deadline.

Dunleavy does the same thing. He is on a very reasonable deal and would be quite appealing to a contender down the stretch. You have to understand these guys aren't going to NY for production on the court, primarily. They are chips. And, if NYK can't find a suitable deal, both contracts expire right in line with their other players, allowing them mega cap space in 2015.



> Unless Chicago starts to be willing to talk about some combination of Gibson/Butler/Mirotic being involved, or at least subs out the Boozer/Dunleavy contracts for a massive traded player exception, they'll be outbid.


Yes. I was clear about this in my post. If Melo is willing to go to multiple teams, then a bidding war could indeed ensue and some of these more appealing names might have to be dealt. I get it.




> Because it's James Dolan, and he's not going to help Carmelo walk.


I agree that Dolan may not make rational decisions, but you may have heard NY is paying this other guy with a bunch of rings $12 million in order to call these shots.



> If Anthony's insisting that he get a full max salary where he signs next, and that's why we're doing the trade, then the Knicks are going to spin that to their advantage to either keep him or get a better return from someone else.


Clearly, to do this right, Melo has to suggest that he _wants_ more than the Bulls can offer via a FA signing, but that he'll bolt regardless if that's his only option. He has to spin it as a win-win to the Knicks. They get some compensation and he gets more dough. Otherwise, he can just leave to spite them for not playing ball.



> If Carmelo's going to accept a (relatively) much smaller deal with a contender to try and win a title, it doesn't make any sense for Chicago to give up two first-rounders when they don't have to.


Sure it does. It allows them to retain Taj Gibson (who would have to be dealt for nothing to make room for Melo) and to bring Mirotic over in 2014 rather than 2015. My presumption is the Bulls would rather have Gibson + Mirotic than picks #16 and #19 . This is the ultimate "win-now" type of scenario.


----------



## Bogg

jnrjr79 said:


> No. A "tour" doesn't beget that. But, Carmelo deciding there is more than one acceptable team to him does, sure. If you read my post clearly, I'm discussing a scenario where Carmelo decides the Bulls are the team he wants to go to, not provides the Knicks with a list of teams.
> 
> 
> 
> Somewhat false. Boozer would cause NYK to pay some luxury tax relative to losing Melo for nothing. However, they are over the cap next season regardless and have no flexibility. Taking on Boozer either gives them an expiring contract they can try to flip at the trade deadline.
> 
> Dunleavy does the same thing. He is on a very reasonable deal and would be quite appealing to a contender down the stretch. You have to understand these guys aren't going to NY for production on the court, primarily. They are chips. And, if NYK can't find a suitable deal, both contracts expire right in line with their other players, allowing them mega cap space in 2015.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. I was clear about this in my post. If Melo is willing to go to multiple teams, then a bidding war could indeed ensue and some of these more appealing names might have to be dealt. I get it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that Dolan may not make rational decisions, but you may have heard NY is paying this other guy with a bunch of rings $12 million in order to call these shots.
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly, to do this right, Melo has to suggest that he _wants_ more than the Bulls can offer via a FA signing, but that he'll bolt regardless if that's his only option. He has to spin it as a win-win to the Knicks. They get some compensation and he gets more dough. Otherwise, he can just leave to spite them for not playing ball.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure it does. It allows them to retain Taj Gibson (who would have to be dealt for nothing to make room for Melo) and to bring Mirotic over in 2014 rather than 2015. My presumption is the Bulls would rather have Gibson + Mirotic than picks #16 and #19 . This is the ultimate "win-now" type of scenario.


Here, I'll put it this way - either :

A) Carmelo is willing to sign a discounted contract to leave New York, under which scenario Chicago would amnesty Boozer before free agency to keep themselves in the game, or

B) Carmelo _isn't_ willing to sign less than a max contract wherever his new deal is, and Chicago keeps Boozer on the books into July as a large expiring contract around which to build to a sign-and-trade.

However, if item B winds up being the case, Chicago is going to have to bid against anyone else that wants to put together a package, because they no longer have the ability to just sign him outright. 

The only scenario that exists where Carmelo could theoretically sign outright with the Bulls but is instead dealt in a deal built around Boozer would be on draft night, requiring Carmelo to tell Jackson that he's 100% signing with Chicago in free agency unless New York trades him to Chicago on draft night, which would require Anthony to opt-in to the last year of his current deal. However, that requires the Bulls to:

1) Give him way more money in salary next year than they need to, seemingly just for fun

2) Give up assets in terms of draft picks and/or young players that they don't otherwise have to, and

3) Trade for Anthony on a one-year contract rather than sign him to a four or five-year contract, opening up the door to him walking next summer if Rose and/or Noah have another injury-plagued year.

All of that combines to make the only conceivable cornered-market Boozer trade a very, very bad idea for Chicago.

In short, Chicago either _can_ sign Anthony outright, in which case Boozer isn't there to trade, or Boozer's around to use in a trade but Chicago _can't_ sign Anthony outright.

EDIT: Correction, turns out the amnesty provision is usable the first seven days *following* the July moratorium, not the first seven days *of* the moratorium. You are correct, the Bulls could theoretically do this. Still, I think it's a terrible idea to pay him max money if you don't have to.


----------



## Diable

If Melo wants to win then the Wizards have the best situation it would seem. They already got one of the best backcourts in the league, a solid supporting cast and they got around 18 million in cap space. He parachutes in and that team should be ready to contend. It would probably help them to dump Wittman for a top level coach however.


----------



## jnrjr79

Bogg said:


> Here, I'll put it this way - either :
> 
> A) Carmelo is willing to sign a discounted contract to leave New York, under which scenario Chicago would amnesty Boozer before free agency to keep themselves in the game, or
> 
> B) Carmelo _isn't_ willing to sign less than a max contract wherever his new deal is, and Chicago keeps Boozer on the books into July as a large expiring contract around which to build to a sign-and-trade.


This timing, I believe, is incorrect. Assuming it tracks like last year, free agency begins 7/1 and players can sign 7/10. The Bulls don't have to amnesty Boozer until 7/16.

It is also quite far from certain that the Bulls would retain Boozer if they don't get Melo. Though there have been murmurs otherwise, the prevailing wisdom is the Bulls would still be willing to shed Boozer to become players for lesser free agents or for Nikola Mirotic if he can't be obtained for the MLE.



> However, if item B winds up being the case, Chicago is going to have to bid against anyone else that wants to put together a package, because they no longer have the ability to just sign him outright.



You are mistaken that scenario B requires the Bulls to put together a better package from other teams. Again, _if he wants, Melo can choose his destination_. If there is only one place he'll go, then it does not become a bidding war.

Further, the notion that the Knicks can actually know whether Melo would take a discount in free agency or whether he'll insist on the max is just false. Expect plenty of subterfuge in this regard.




> The only scenario that exists where Carmelo could theoretically sign outright with the Bulls but is instead dealt in a deal built around Boozer would be on draft night, requiring Carmelo to tell Jackson that he's 100% signing with Chicago in free agency unless New York trades him to Chicago on draft night, which would require Anthony to opt-in to the last year of his current deal.


It seems like perhaps you don't understand the sign-and-trade rules under the CBA. (And I'm not saying I'm an expert!). 

The Bulls do not need Anthony to opt-in to the last year of his current deal. Indeed, under the new CBA, you cannot offer additional years via S&T like you could under the old one.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q90

Further, I have not seen a single report that indicates Anthony would opt-in to his Knicks contract in order to consummate a S&T, but if there's anything out there, I'd certainly be interested to see it.



> However, that requires the Bulls to:
> 
> 1) Give him way more money in salary next year than they need to, seemingly just for fun
> 
> 2) Give up assets in terms of draft picks and/or young players that they don't otherwise have to, and
> 
> 3) Trade for Anthony on a one-year contract rather than sign him to a four or five-year contract, opening up the door to him walking next summer if Rose and/or Noah have another injury-plagued year.


As outlined above, this just isn't accurate. The scenario I pointed out is what the actual truth is. The Bulls are choosing between getting rid of Taj and delaying Mirotic's arrival vs. whatever assets are necessary to acquire Melo. though I certainly expect the Knicks to ask for a lot, you are not correct in indicating the Knicks have tremendous leverage (again, only as long as Melo doesn't have multiple acceptable suitors, in which case, I absolutely agree that the Knicks would have considerable leverage).

Also, again please note that the Bulls cannot get Melo on a five-year deal under any scenario.

Last, it is worth noting that in Phil's initial meeting with Melo, _he asked Melo to come back to NY and take a pay cut_. So, it's certainly conceivable that he might not make maximum dollars by staying, either.



> All of that combines to make the only conceivable cornered-market Boozer trade a very, very bad idea for Chicago.
> 
> In short, Chicago either _can_ sign Anthony outright, in which case Boozer isn't there to trade, or Boozer's around to use in a trade but Chicago _can't_ sign Anthony outright.


Nope. The Boozer-based deal where the Bulls are the only suitor is the ideal scenario. If other teams that Melo would accept become involved, then it becomes a bidding war, which isn't great. However, in the "bidding war" scenario, it would seem you lose virtually all hope of consummating a deal by casting off Taj and holding Mirotic at bay, because even then the Bulls likely would not be offering the same salary as their competing bidders. Even if you believe Melo that max money isn't necessarily essential, if he has a number of teams he would like to play for, I have to believe that if one of those teams can offer substantially more $$ while still being an appealing destination, that's the team that'll get him.

*EDIT*: I note that you edited your post and saw how things work re: timing. I continue to disagree that a Boozer deal would be "terrible" for precisely the reasons I've outlined. It is in fact the best conceivable deal, unless you think keeping draft picks > keeping Taj and bringing Mirotic over.


----------



## Bogg

jnrjr79 said:


> *EDIT*: I note that you edited your post and saw how things work re: timing. I continue to disagree that a Boozer deal would be "terrible" for precisely the reasons I've outlined. It is in fact the best conceivable deal, unless you think keeping draft picks > keeping Taj and bringing Mirotic over.


Yea.....everything was really based on the amnesty period being during the moratorium rather than after it. I still doubt that it would be a Chicago and only Chicago scenario, though, and wonder about New York's willingness to take back Boozer and Dunleavy. They already have $44 million worth of expiring contracts in their frontcourt, I don't know that they'd want to make it $64 million.


----------



## jnrjr79

Bogg said:


> Yea.....everything was really based on the amnesty period being during the moratorium rather than after it. I still doubt that it would be a Chicago and only Chicago scenario, though, and wonder about New York's willingness to take back Boozer and Dunleavy. They already have $44 million worth of expiring contracts in their frontcourt, I don't know that they'd want to make it $64 million.



I agree with all this. The "dream" scenario is Chicago only, but I have a hard time seeing Melo not at least consider L.A., Houston, etc.

And though NY is a rich franchise, they may have no interest in paying a bunch of luxury tax for players who aren't long-term pieces in what will be a lost season. You really just have to hope that Phil wants to build this thing himself and would be salivating over some mid 1st rounders.

Don't forget, though, NY has no 1st round pick this year as it's going to Denver, so it might bite.


----------



## Bogg

jnrjr79 said:


> I agree with all this. The "dream" scenario is Chicago only, but I have a hard time seeing Melo not at least consider L.A., Houston, etc.
> 
> And though NY is a rich franchise, they may have no interest in paying a bunch of luxury tax for players who aren't long-term pieces in what will be a lost season. You really just have to hope that Phil wants to build this thing himself and would be salivating over some mid 1st rounders.
> 
> Don't forget, though, NY has no 1st round pick this year as it's going to Denver, so it might bite.


I'm also operating under the assumption that if Carmelo agrees to sign with Chicago outright it's because he's agreed to take something like $14-$15 million a year so that Gibson can stay. It doesn't make much sense (to me at least) for him to flee New York if it means that Chicago has to gut their team to get him. Given their injury concerns, I don't know that Rose/Noah without any depth is any better than what Houston or even Charlotte could offer him.


----------



## jnrjr79

Bogg said:


> I'm also operating under the assumption that if Carmelo agrees to sign with Chicago outright it's because he's agreed to take something like $14-$15 million a year so that Gibson can stay. It doesn't make much sense (to me at least) for him to flee New York if it means that Chicago has to gut their team to get him. Given their injury concerns, I don't know that Rose/Noah without any depth is any better than what Houston or even Charlotte could offer him.



If Gibson stays, Chicago won't have $14-15 million/year, unless they find a deal for Dunleavy (which obviously could happen).

If the only move is to amnesty Boozer to sign Melo, you're looking at $11.8 million or so in cap space. Melo might be taking a discount, but 50%? I can't see it. 

http://www.blogabull.com/2014/5/5/5683234/chicago-bulls-salary-cap-and-roster-outlook

http://data.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/bulls.jsp


----------



## Bogg

jnrjr79 said:


> If Gibson stays, Chicago won't have $14-15 million/year, unless they find a deal for Dunleavy (which obviously could happen).
> 
> If the only move is to amnesty Boozer to sign Melo, you're looking at $11.8 million or so in cap space. Melo might be taking a discount, but 50%? I can't see it.
> 
> http://www.blogabull.com/2014/5/5/5683234/chicago-bulls-salary-cap-and-roster-outlook
> 
> http://data.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/bulls.jsp


I'm looking at Chicago's cap figure next year being around $64-65 million with Boozer and before Mirotic. Am I looking at bad information or are you basing it off of an after-Mirotic number?


----------



## Dornado

I have a hard time investing much stock in any scenario that involves Carmelo taking a discount to come play for us. I just don't see why he would.


----------



## Diable

Basically if the cap is what it is expected to be (64 million is what I've heard), then you amnesty Boozer and Melo would have to settle for what Boozer would make next year. 16 million would be a pretty steep pay cut when he could go elsewhere and get 20. 

Really Thibodeau is the only big advantage Chicago has in a Melo signing and it does not look as though that is a match made in Heaven.


----------



## Bogg

Diable said:


> Basically if the cap is what it is expected to be (64 million is what I've heard), then you amnesty Boozer and Melo would have to settle for what Boozer would make next year.


See, that's the impression I'm under. Sure, they'd probably be looking at trading the rights to Mirotic for a draft pick somewhere or risking that he signs a contract that keeps him in Europe for a few more years, but if you're choosing between signing Melo or Mirotic, you've gotta go with Melo.


----------



## jnrjr79

Dornado said:


> I have a hard time investing much stock in any scenario that involves Carmelo taking a discount to come play for us. I just don't see why he would.



I can see a discount. I just can't see the discount being 40 or 50%. Might he take a couple million less because he thinks it's the best situation to win? Sure. $11 million? Nope.


----------



## jnrjr79

Bogg said:


> I'm looking at Chicago's cap figure next year being around $64-65 million with Boozer and before Mirotic. Am I looking at bad information or are you basing it off of an after-Mirotic number?


Cap projection is $63.2 million.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on...p-projected-to-increase-more-than-anticipated

I included the links that provide my numbers in the post above, which I think is the best available information.


----------



## jnrjr79

Diable said:


> Basically if the cap is what it is expected to be (64 million is what I've heard), then you amnesty Boozer and Melo would have to settle for what Boozer would make next year. 16 million would be a pretty steep pay cut when he could go elsewhere and get 20.
> 
> Really Thibodeau is the only big advantage Chicago has in a Melo signing and it does not look as though that is a match made in Heaven.


Absent other moves beyond just the Boozer amnesty, the Bulls will not have $16 million.


----------



## Bogg

jnrjr79 said:


> Absent other moves beyond just the Boozer amnesty, the Bulls will not have $16 million.


Ah, well then, you guys aren't in as good of shape as I thought you were. New York's got more leverage than I thought.


----------



## jnrjr79

Bogg said:


> Ah, well then, you guys aren't in as good of shape as I thought you were. New York's got more leverage than I thought.


The expectation seems to be that Taj would get axed to create the additional cap room. That would certainly reduce any leverage NY has, but also eliminates your projected starter at the position, hence my support for the S&T.


----------



## Bogg

jnrjr79 said:


> The expectation seems to be that Taj would get axed to create the additional cap room. That would certainly reduce any leverage NY has, but also eliminates your projected starter at the position, hence my support for the S&T.


Seems like dumping Dunleavy and Snell makes more sense than that (trading away Gibson). You shouldn't have to give anything up and might pick up some second-rounders, and it'd get you up to a little over $15 million in space, if I'm looking at things right. Unless, you know, Anthony's insisting on getting $20 million a year.


----------



## jnrjr79

Bogg said:


> Seems like dumping Dunleavy and Snell makes more sense than that (trading away Gibson). You shouldn't have to give anything up and might pick up some second-rounders, and it'd get you up to a little over $15 million in space, if I'm looking at things right. Unless, you know, Anthony's insisting on getting $20 million a year.



Agreed.


----------



## Da Grinch

yodurk said:


> Just curious, what is the Bulls core rotation under that belief?
> 
> Rose, ??, Melo, Boozer, Asik
> CJ, Ronnie, Korver, Taj
> 
> Assumes we would've matched the Asik offer sheet and retained the bench mob for 2011, 2012, 2013, etc.
> 
> However the big question mark there by far is whether Rose would've stayed healthy or not. That is the #1 reason the Bulls title hopes were derailed the past few years and would've likely done the same in this hypothetical. If you assume Rose would've stayed healthy, I could see an argument that this team is better than had the trade not been done.


unless the belief is that rose was just snakebit and destined to be hurt you have to see thibs overuse and rose propensity for playing hurt as a major cause for his issues.

an additional offensive star would alleviate that.

as for the bench mob Garpax has done a pretty good job at getting bench players to fill in they likely would not have stayed intact but it would have been fine.

i also assume boozer would have been dealt years ago in favor starting taj and to add a bench scorer as well as resigning asik.

as far as title aspirations melo matches up pretty well against lebron actually winning more often than losing until he was a knick when the teams they were on became somewhat lopsided.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=anthoca01&p2=jamesle01

scoring more and defending him better than deng did.

add to that the bulls would still be a great defensive and rebounding team and rose when healthy is at least wade's equal in 2010 and would certainly be better now.

so yeah i think if they had done this deal when it was offered they would have won a title by now.

bulls core
rose/butler/melo/taj/asik
and guessing about the bench
andre miller/jamal crawford/m.dunleavy jr/draymond green/ andrew bogut


----------



## Bogg

Da Grinch said:


> unless the belief is that rose was just snakebit and destined to be hurt you have to see thibs overuse and rose propensity for playing hurt as a major cause for his issues.


I don't know, playing around 37 minutes a night isn't really that unusual for young star players. _A lot_ of guys have played minutes similar to what Rose did under his one healthy year with Thibs, but for seasons and seasons. In fact, Rose was right around that number before Thibs even got there. It really seems like a combination of Rose having some structurally questionable knees and his style of play being conducive to knee injuries moreso than Thibs grinding his players into dust.


----------



## Da Grinch

Bogg said:


> I don't know, playing around 37 minutes a night isn't really that unusual for young star players. _A lot_ of guys have played minutes similar to what Rose did under his one healthy year with Thibs, but for seasons and seasons. In fact, Rose was right around that number before Thibs even got there. It really seems like a combination of Rose having some structurally questionable knees and his style of play being conducive to knee injuries moreso than Thibs grinding his players into dust.


there is a world of difference in how hard rose was playing .

under VDN rose wasn't exactly the world's most attentive defender, he didn't become gary payton under thibs by any stretch but he certainly played harder there 

also on offense in usage he went from not ranked in the top 50 in his rookie year to 2nd overall his 1st season under thibs only behind kobe

before he played for thibs he never had a knee problem, now he has according to you "structually questionable knees" 

before he tore his acl he had groin , back, ankle and turf toe problems, and i'm not talking about his whole career i'm talking about that season(strike shortened season).

http://blog.anklefootmd.com/2012/04/27/derrick-rose-ankle-injuries-worsened-by-taping/

i think there is a reasonable amount of evidence to say another offensive star to lessen the load and to give him rest would have helped rose out a lot.


----------



## yodurk

I am a big believer that (on average) 1 minute of PT under Thibs' system is significantly more strenuous than 1 minute under any other coach's system.

Hence 38 minutes under Thibs is very grueling night in and night out. I also don't think it's a coincidence that a pre-Thibs/post-Thibs comparison of offensive numbers for his players tend to produce less efficiently than they did with other coaches. e.g., Korver, Boozer, even Rose (compared to %'s with Vinny). Also not a coincidence that Jimmy Butler was very efficient in 28 minutes last year and then fell off a cliff playing 38 minutes this year with alot of 45+ minute games guarding the other team's best player.


----------



## yodurk

Back to Melo...Steve Kerr is apparently going to be the Knicks' coach. Wonder if that is the nail in the coffin of Melo leaving. It's almost like Phil isn't even trying to retain him. A separate rumor also said Phil was making comments about Melo taking a pay cut to stay in New York. At the moment this doesn't sound like a situation where Melo stays in New York...odds of coming to Chicago appear to be heading upward, IMO. (of course he could just as easily choose LA or Houston)


----------



## Bogg

Da Grinch said:


> there is a world of difference in how hard rose was playing .
> 
> under VDN rose wasn't exactly the world's most attentive defender, he didn't become gary payton under thibs by any stretch but he certainly played harder there
> 
> also on offense in usage he went from not ranked in the top 50 in his rookie year to 2nd overall his 1st season under thibs only behind kobe
> 
> before he played for thibs he never had a knee problem, now he has according to you "structually questionable knees"
> 
> before he tore his acl he had groin , back, ankle and turf toe problems, and i'm not talking about his whole career i'm talking about that season(strike shortened season).
> 
> http://blog.anklefootmd.com/2012/04/27/derrick-rose-ankle-injuries-worsened-by-taping/
> 
> i think there is a reasonable amount of evidence to say another offensive star to lessen the load and to give him rest would have helped rose out a lot.


I think it has more to do with 100 mph jump-stops than anything else. Like I said, "Thibs ruined Rose!" is a nice narrative and all, but if playing 37 minutes a night for one season is all it took to ruin his body, he was never holding up for 15 seasons anyway. Lots of guys played between 35-40 minutes a night when they were young. Rose just doesn't seem to be built for that.


----------



## yodurk

Bogg said:


> I think it has more to do with 100 mph jump-stops than anything else. Like I said, "Thibs ruined Rose!" is a nice narrative and all, but if playing 37 minutes a night for one season is all it took to ruin his body, he was never holding up for 15 seasons anyway. Lots of guys played between 35-40 minutes a night when they were young. Rose just doesn't seem to be built for that.


I wouldn't rule out fatigue + hard jump stops as a collective situation. (not that I'm blaming Thibs)

I also liked it better when Rose was a lean and quick 190-195 pounds as a rookie. Now it feels like he's built more like a running back with all the extra upper body mass and the extra stress it puts on ligaments. I have read about some pro athletes regretting putting on too much muscle mass versus staying thinner/leaner. Lebron James is the only person who seems to be contradictory to that trend.


----------



## jnrjr79

yodurk said:


> Back to Melo...Steve Kerr is apparently going to be the Knicks' coach. Wonder if that is the nail in the coffin of Melo leaving. It's almost like Phil isn't even trying to retain him. A separate rumor also said Phil was making comments about Melo taking a pay cut to stay in New York. At the moment this doesn't sound like a situation where Melo stays in New York...odds of coming to Chicago appear to be heading upward, IMO. (of course he could just as easily choose LA or Houston)



I found the paycut request to be very interesting, too.

Why do you think Kerr increases the chance of Melo leaving? Is it simply the lack of coaching experience? Kerr seems very well-liked, but he's a total question mark from a coaching perspective. I have no idea, though, what Melo would think of him.


----------



## Da Grinch

yodurk said:


> Back to Melo...Steve Kerr is apparently going to be the Knicks' coach. Wonder if that is the nail in the coffin of Melo leaving. It's almost like Phil isn't even trying to retain him. A separate rumor also said Phil was making comments about Melo taking a pay cut to stay in New York. At the moment this doesn't sound like a situation where Melo stays in New York...odds of coming to Chicago appear to be heading upward, IMO. (of course he could just as easily choose LA or Houston)


i think melo can take a paycut depending on the situation he is signing into

unless phil is into tanking there is no way he doesn't give a full court press in signing anthony they were literally among the worst in the league when carmelo wasn't on the court ( according to +/-)

i think an understated factor in his decision is his wife she is a tv personality so i doubt he'll seriously consider a smaller city as opposed to ny,l.a. or chitown.

whoever can sell him on the best plan for the future wins, basically.


----------



## Da Grinch

Bogg said:


> I think it has more to do with 100 mph jump-stops than anything else. Like I said, "Thibs ruined Rose!" is a nice narrative and all, but if playing 37 minutes a night for one season is all it took to ruin his body, he was never holding up for 15 seasons anyway. Lots of guys played between 35-40 minutes a night when they were young. Rose just doesn't seem to be built for that.


he was doing the 100 jumpstops thing before thibs .

i think its more that he was forever playing banged up and that no matter how you play or who you play for will catch up to you , if he wasn't Mr Everything on offense they could have rested him more , not just minutes a game but actual games in which he was clearly hampered which he clearly was most of that season.


----------



## 29380

Da Grinch said:


> there is a world of difference in how hard rose was playing .
> 
> under VDN rose wasn't exactly the world's most attentive defender, he didn't become gary payton under thibs by any stretch but he certainly played harder there
> 
> also on offense in usage he went from not ranked in the top 50 in his rookie year to 2nd overall his 1st season under thibs only behind kobe
> 
> *before he played for thibs he never had a knee problem*, now he has according to you "structually questionable knees"
> 
> before he tore his acl he had groin , back, ankle and turf toe problems, and i'm not talking about his whole career i'm talking about that season(strike shortened season).
> 
> http://blog.anklefootmd.com/2012/04/27/derrick-rose-ankle-injuries-worsened-by-taping/
> 
> i think there is a reasonable amount of evidence to say another offensive star to lessen the load and to give him rest would have helped rose out a lot.


Not true he had knee problems at Memphis and was regularly having MRIs.


----------



## yodurk

jnrjr79 said:


> I found the paycut request to be very interesting, too.
> 
> Why do you think Kerr increases the chance of Melo leaving? Is it simply the lack of coaching experience? Kerr seems very well-liked, but he's a total question mark from a coaching perspective. I have no idea, though, what Melo would think of him.


I could be speaking out of line. But I say this for a few reasons (mostly IMO):

- Melo isn't getting any discernible input into the coaching hire; veteran superstars usually want that. 

- Phil seems intent on rebuilding the Knicks from the ground up, according to his vision. Hence why I don't see a full court press trying to keep Melo.

- Building off the last point, Phil's approach implies (rightfully so) they aren't going to be a quick fix. Kudos to Phil for that b/c I think that is the best approach for their long term future. But 30 year old Melo can't possibly want to be part of a rebuild. Even the fastest rebuilds take a few years.

- And lastly, yes, Steve Kerr would be a rookie head coach. Do veteran superstars trying to contend want to play for rookie head coaches? This isn't at all like Thibodeau who was a highly respected 20+ year assistant.


----------



## Dornado

Ender said:


> Not true he had knee problems at Memphis and was regularly having MRIs.


This is true. I remember a (sad, in retrospect) post I made back then to the effect of "I hope he doesn't have knee problems"... Blaming Thibodeau for Rose's knee injuries is pretty ridiculous if you ask me.


----------



## Bogg

Da Grinch said:


> he was doing the 100 jumpstops thing before thibs .
> 
> i think its more that he was forever playing banged up and that no matter how you play or who you play for will catch up to you , if he wasn't Mr Everything on offense they could have rested him more , not just minutes a game but actual games in which he was clearly hampered which he clearly was most of that season.


I mean, if you're arguing that having a second go-to offensive option would have reduced the stress on his body, then sure, I agree with that. However, if someone's saying that bringing in Melo would have meant that Rose never would have hurt his knees at all, I don't know how you come to that conclusion. His style of play is very conducive to knee injuries, bulking up like that increased the amount of weight he was re-directing, and like Ender said - he was already having his knees looked at in college. In retrospect, _something_ was going to happen eventually.


----------



## jnrjr79

yodurk said:


> I could be speaking out of line. But I say this for a few reasons (mostly IMO):
> 
> - Melo isn't getting any discernible input into the coaching hire; veteran superstars usually want that.
> 
> - Phil seems intent on rebuilding the Knicks from the ground up, according to his vision. Hence why I don't see a full court press trying to keep Melo.
> 
> - Building off the last point, Phil's approach implies (rightfully so) they aren't going to be a quick fix. Kudos to Phil for that b/c I think that is the best approach for their long term future. But 30 year old Melo can't possibly want to be part of a rebuild. Even the fastest rebuilds take a few years.
> 
> - And lastly, yes, Steve Kerr would be a rookie head coach. Do veteran superstars trying to contend want to play for rookie head coaches? This isn't at all like Thibodeau who was a highly respected 20+ year assistant.



These are all fair points, for sure. I do wonder what Phil's vision is in terms of building the team. Their roster is a mess and he may want to put his own stamp on things rather than try to tweak.

Kerr isn't Thibs b/c Thibs had lots of coaching experience, though not as a head coach, I absolutely agree. Also, Rose was a young player at that time, and wouldn't have expected to have the sway with the organization that somebody in Melo's position would.

I honestly wonder whether Phil finds retaining Melo to be terribly important.


----------



## Dornado

Da Grinch said:


> also on offense in usage he went from not ranked in the top 50 in his rookie year to 2nd overall his 1st season under thibs only behind kobe


Also, you're comparing his rookie year to his third year without reference to his second year... his usage percentage went 22.6 (VDN), 27.2 (VDN), 32.2 (Thibs)... which just looks like a player naturally progressing to me. Since then he's hovered around 30-31. None of those USG% numbers are out of line for a number one option.


----------



## Da Grinch

Bogg said:


> I mean, if you're arguing that having a second go-to offensive option would have reduced the stress on his body, then sure, I agree with that. However, if someone's saying that bringing in Melo would have meant that Rose never would have hurt his knees at all, I don't know how you come to that conclusion. His style of play is very conducive to knee injuries, bulking up like that increased the amount of weight he was re-directing, and like Ender said - he was already having his knees looked at in college. In retrospect, _something_ was going to happen eventually.


having your knees looked at is one thing

2 season ending surgeries is another

you can have a CAT scan it doesn't mean you'll get dementia.

i dont blame thibs or his style of play as much continuing to play hurt and one thing leading to another .

its taking on a similar arc of a penny hardaway situation unless it gets averted somehow where he kept getting hurt and little by little lost what made him great....and it all got started by playing hurt and overcompensating which led to another injury , which to another , and then another.

and even rose has spoken of coming back too soon from previous injuries as a reason he played it extra safe when he tore his acl.


----------



## jnrjr79

Thoughts on what Kerr to Golden State means for Melo? Personally, I'm glad it sends a message that Phil Jackson isn't a magician who can just get whoever he wants. His first attempted meaningful transaction was a failure.


----------



## yodurk

Missing out on Kerr probably doesn't impact Melo's decision much, IMO. Though what Phil decides to do next certainly will. Rumor has it Derek Fisher is next in line. We are seeing a trend...Phil wants to groom his own coach and wants it to be someone he trusts that he's worked with before. And Phil isn't looking to hire one of his former coaching rivals, ala George Karl, Van Gundys, etc.

I still think it's interesting that Phil doesn't appear to give a crap about what Melo thinks. Phil is marching to hit own beat. I admire that, but still am thinking it might be a tipping point for losing Melo.


----------



## jnrjr79

yodurk said:


> Missing out on Kerr probably doesn't impact Melo's decision much, IMO. Though what Phil decides to do next certainly will. Rumor has it Derek Fisher is next in line. We are seeing a trend...Phil wants to groom his own coach and wants it to be someone he trusts that he's worked with before. And Phil isn't looking to hire one of his former coaching rivals, ala George Karl, Van Gundys, etc.
> 
> I still think it's interesting that Phil doesn't appear to give a crap about what Melo thinks. Phil is marching to hit own beat. I admire that, but still am thinking it might be a tipping point for losing Melo.


It seems, too, that if Phil wants to groom his own guy, he may be insistent on his guy implementing the triangle. I have heard rumors that Melo isn't a fan.


----------



## Diable

Jackson probably thinks that he's not a lot worse off if Melo walks. The thing he obviously needs is Melo at a reasonable price and there doesn't seem to be a huge chance of that happening.


----------



## transplant

I'm not a Carmelo Anthony fan. This said, if the Bulls could somehow acquire him without losing Gibson, I could easily get behind the move.


----------



## yodurk

Diable said:


> Jackson probably thinks that he's not a lot worse off if Melo walks.


Yep...and I agree with Phil. I actually think Phil is off to a good start if that's his belief, and he'll be off to an even better start if he facilitates a good S&T package for Melo that nets the Knicks draft picks, value players, cap relief, etc. All things the Knicks have sorely lacked the past 10 years. 

Versus the layman fan belief that thinks they need to keep Melo at all costs, even though he is 30 years old and would lock the Knicks into "bad to mediocre" territory for the next 5 years. Again, kudos to Phil if he can already see this.


----------



## Fergus

yodurk said:


> Yep...and I agree with Phil. I actually think Phil is off to a good start if that's his belief, and he'll be off to an even better start if he facilitates a good S&T package for Melo that nets the Knicks draft picks, value players, cap relief, etc. All things the Knicks have sorely lacked the past 10 years.
> 
> Versus the layman fan belief that thinks they need to keep Melo at all costs, even though he is 30 years old and would lock the Knicks into "bad to mediocre" territory for the next 5 years. Again, kudos to Phil if he can already see this.


Unfortunately, a good thing for Phil and the Knicks is likely a bad thing for the Bulls. A sign and trade implies a hefty salary for Melo. We need to add Melo to a solid core of players in order to field a team with a realistic chance at winning a championship. Having to give up assets like draft picks plus deal with a hefty salary would impede this effort. 


My biggest hope is the Carmelo comes to the Bulls as a free agent for a reasonable salary. Based on some of his reported recent statements there is some hope that his might happen, however I am not getting my hopes up.


----------



## yodurk

Fergus said:


> Unfortunately, a good thing for Phil and the Knicks is likely a bad thing for the Bulls. A sign and trade implies a hefty salary for Melo. We need to add Melo to a solid core of players in order to field a team with a realistic chance at winning a championship. Having to give up assets like draft picks plus deal with a hefty salary would impede this effort.
> 
> 
> My biggest hope is the Carmelo comes to the Bulls as a free agent for a reasonable salary. Based on some of his reported recent statements there is some hope that his might happen, however I am not getting my hopes up.


This is true, but Jerry will allegedly pay the tax for a contender, and probably well into the tax for a high level contender with multiple superstars. That was a big reason why we traded Luol Deng, so as to get out of the tax for this season and avoid repeater tax penalties for the next few years.

So while Rose + Melo is going to be pricey ($40M+ combined), we hopefully have enough to keep Noah, Taj or Mirotic (likely not both), maybe lock Jimmy into a reasonable contract, and then the rest would be title chaser veterans signing for the vet min. Off top of my head, that plan would put our team salary in the $80M or so territory. If the salary cap is low 70's, we'd be paying ~$10M in tax which I'm sure Jerry can absorb for a legit contender. (and frankly a team of that caliber would quite possibly pay for the extra $10M and then some...ticket price hikes, merchandise, playoff tix, etc.)


----------



## jnrjr79

yodurk said:


> This is true, but Jerry will allegedly pay the tax for a contender, and probably well into the tax for a high level contender with multiple superstars. That was a big reason why we traded Luol Deng, so as to get out of the tax for this season and avoid repeater tax penalties for the next few years.
> 
> So while Rose + Melo is going to be pricey ($40M+ combined), we hopefully have enough to keep Noah, Taj or Mirotic (likely not both), maybe lock Jimmy into a reasonable contract, and then the rest would be title chaser veterans signing for the vet min. Off top of my head, that plan would put our team salary in the $80M or so territory. If the salary cap is low 70's, we'd be paying ~$10M in tax which I'm sure Jerry can absorb for a legit contender. (and frankly a team of that caliber would quite possibly pay for the extra $10M and then some...ticket price hikes, merchandise, playoff tix, etc.)



Don't forget the cap and tax levels are going up. Next year is projected to be $63.2 million cap and $77 million tax, then $66.5 million and $81 million in 2015, respectively.


----------



## Da Grinch

jnrjr79 said:


> Thoughts on what Kerr to Golden State means for Melo? Personally, I'm glad it sends a message that Phil Jackson isn't a magician who can just get whoever he wants. His first attempted meaningful transaction was a failure.


he cant help that kerr lives in california and pretty good job opened up there during negotiations...now if had been a neutral place or even that kerr went cross country to pick another job ...well then....

as it stands now kerr is just a highly respected rookie coach who is extremely overpaid until he shows he is worth it.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

I think it is very possible to end up with Melo while keeping Gibson.

I envision a Boozer, Mirotic, Dunleavy,+ picks for Melo, Felton type of deal.


----------



## Diable

Felton's deal is really odious. I read the other day that opposing point guards were averaging like 23 ppg against him. Dude is grossly overpaid, carrying about 20 or 30 extra lbs and facing potential jail time as well. In truth if you're a Knick fan you'd have to root for the judge to lock his ass up, because that probably gets you off the hook for the contract. Hard for me to imagine the Bulls will eat it for Melo to be honest.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

It is only two more years for less than $8 mil.

Crazy to let that stop you if the Knicks will do the deal above.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

Here is an idea for how the Bulls' off season should go:

*Trade Boozer, Dunleavy, #16, #19 and rights to Mirotic for Melo ($21 mil) and Felton*

- New York dumps Felton's contract, gets back two contracts that are 2015 friendly, and acquire some assets along the way.

*Sign Jason Smith with part of the MLE ~ 3.5 mil per for three years.*

- Smith is an active big who can play either frontcourt position and hit the mid-range jumper. Coming off an injury you might be able to steal him for cheap.

*Sign Richard Jefferson, Anthony Tolliver, Ryan Hollins, and Leandro Barbosa to vet minimum deals*

- All guys that are likely to come cheap. Jefferson is a backup at this point, but can knock down the open 3. Tolliver is a combo forward who hustles and can hit the 3. Barbosa provides offense off the bench, and Hollins is a big body who is willing to play physical.

*Draft DeAndre Kane*

-Combo guard to potentially replace Hinrich.


That leaves you with

Noah/G. Smith/Hollins
Gibson/J.Smith/Tolliver
Melo/Jefferson
Butler/Snell/Barbosa
Rose/Felton/Kane

Total salary is just under $76 mil which is under the luxury tax.


----------



## PD

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> Here is an idea for how the Bulls' off season should go:
> 
> *Trade Boozer, Dunleavy, #16, #19 and rights to Mirotic for Melo ($21 mil) and Felton*
> 
> - New York dumps Felton's contract, gets back two contracts that are 2015 friendly, and acquire some assets along the way.
> 
> *Sign Jason Smith with part of the MLE ~ 3.5 mil per for three years.*
> 
> - Smith is an active big who can play either frontcourt position and hit the mid-range jumper. Coming off an injury you might be able to steal him for cheap.
> 
> *Sign Richard Jefferson, Anthony Tolliver, Ryan Hollins, and Leandro Barbosa to vet minimum deals*
> 
> - All guys that are likely to come cheap. Jefferson is a backup at this point, but can knock down the open 3. Tolliver is a combo forward who hustles and can hit the 3. Barbosa provides offense off the bench, and Hollins is a big body who is willing to play physical.
> 
> *Draft DeAndre Kane*
> 
> -Combo guard to potentially replace Hinrich.
> 
> 
> That leaves you with
> 
> Noah/G. Smith/Hollins
> Gibson/J.Smith/Tolliver
> Melo/Jefferson
> Butler/Snell/Barbosa
> Rose/Felton/Kane
> 
> Total salary is just under $76 mil which is under the luxury tax.


Tell me why do the bulls have to give up this much for a FA especially when:

1. They can amnesty Boozer and trade Dunleavy to a team without taking anything back (possibly losing a second round pick or that 19th pick).

2. There arent many contending teams that can pay Anthony as much as the Bulls.

In all, giving up 2 first round picks in this year along with Mirotic, who is being considered a lottery pick himself is simply too much for someone who you can sign out right.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

PD said:


> Tell me why do the bulls have to give up this much for a FA especially when:
> 
> 1. They can amnesty Boozer and trade Dunleavy to a team without taking anything back (possibly losing a second round pick or that 19th pick).
> 
> 2. There arent many contending teams that can pay Anthony as much as the Bulls.
> 
> In all, giving up 2 first round picks in this year along with Mirotic, who is being considered a lottery pick himself is simply too much for someone who you can sign out right.


If you want to sign him outright you would have to dump Gibson as well. 

Two mid 1st rounders and Mirotic is not too much for a superstar.


----------



## yodurk

*Derek Fisher hired as Knicks head coach....*

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/b...-hooked-fisher-knicks-coach-article-1.1822926

Thoughts on Melo's decision to stay vs leave?? Another coach like Kerr who has zero coaching experience whatsoever (sidenote: interesting trend starting...Kidd, Kerr, Fisher...and getting paid big bucks in the process). 

I really have a hard time seeing Melo wanting to stay with a rookie HC. The guy is 30 years old, only a few years of prime ball left and the Knicks clearly aren't close to winning a title. Not to mention, as I said in previous posts, I do not think Phil especially cares if Melo stays or not....IMO, he would be better served trying to net a package of assets in a Melo S&T.


----------



## jnrjr79

yodurk said:


> *Derek Fisher hired as Knicks head coach....*
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/b...-hooked-fisher-knicks-coach-article-1.1822926
> 
> Thoughts on Melo's decision to stay vs leave?? Another coach like Kerr who has zero coaching experience whatsoever (sidenote: interesting trend starting...Kidd, Kerr, Fisher...and getting paid big bucks in the process).
> 
> I really have a hard time seeing Melo wanting to stay with a rookie HC. The guy is 30 years old, only a few years of prime ball left and the Knicks clearly aren't close to winning a title. Not to mention, as I said in previous posts, I do not think Phil especially cares if Melo stays or not....IMO, he would be better served trying to net a package of assets in a Melo S&T.



I don't know whether it's a huge deal to Melo, but I can't imagine it helping NY retain him unless he has some relationship with Fisher that I don't know about.


----------



## Diable

Melo has put himself in an interesting predicament. On the one hand he only has a limited time remaining as a top ten type of player. At the same time he's running towards the tipping point in his earning potential as a professional basketball player. If he wants to win then he needs to bail, but if he wants to maximize his earnings New York is the place for that.


----------



## jnrjr79

Woj:



> Sources: As Carmelo Anthony leans toward leaving New York, Chicago and Houston emerge as free agency frontrunners. yhoo.it/1hU8THu


----------



## Ballscientist

Bulls and Rockets will offer nothing to Knicks. Maybe Knicks will pack with Amare contract

What should the Knicks do after Melo leaving them?


----------



## yodurk

Knicks have minimal influence over this. As we saw with Dwight, Lebron, Bosh, etc., Melo will choose his destination, bottom line. The Knicks could get a few assets in a S&T but that is not even a given. Melo has the leverage...If he chooses Houston, he is going to Houston...ditto with Chicago.

Chicago would be perfect for Melo if health weren't an issue (Rose, mainly). Hopefully he is optimistic in Rose returning healthy and at star level play. You also have a much easier road to the Finals by being in the East and much better coach. 

Houston has been a healthier team the past few years and it would be less scoring pressure for Melo. But realistically I don't see a Harden-Melo-Dwight led team making it to the Finals with so many good WC teams and how poorly those pieces fit. 

For some reason though, I see Melo picking Houston. IMO, he will think they can out score anyone (wrongly or not) and will see that as his chance for his own "big 3" ala Lebron-Wade-Bosh. If so that is the 3rd consecutive big summer move for them.


----------



## Da Grinch

Ballscientist said:


> Bulls and Rockets will offer nothing to Knicks. Maybe Knicks will pack with Amare contract
> 
> What should the Knicks do after Melo leaving them?


if melo leaves , they pretty much have a clean slate to do what they want...which is go all in phil jackson's vision of what a basketball team is.

i'm guessing they trade chandler for hibbert
sign jimmer 
trade pau for amar'e
trade for picks 
draft spencer dinwiddle
sign shaun livingston


----------



## e-monk

why would the Lakers trade Pau's bird rights for Amare?
what would the Knicks trade for picks?
how are the Knicks signing anyone since even without Melo they're still over the cap?


----------



## Da Grinch

> why would the Lakers trade Pau's bird rights for Amare?


i doubt the lakers will kill their 2015 flexibility for pau , and i doubt pau will take a 1 year deal ...this way the lakers get something for him when in most scenerios he leaves for nothing




> what would the Knicks trade for picks?


money , players , future picks



e-monk said:


> how are the Knicks signing anyone since even without Melo they're still over the cap?


freddette wont cost much more than the min. or vet exception he has proven nothing...but i think he can provide a nice boost in a steve kerr/bj armstrong role in the triangle

livingston may cost the mle


----------



## e-monk

Da Grinch said:


> i doubt the lakers will kill their 2015 flexibility for pau , and i doubt pau will take a 1 year deal ...this way the lakers get something for him when in most scenerios he leaves for nothing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> money , players , future picks *they don't have this shit you know?*
> 
> 
> 
> freddette wont cost much more than the min. or vet exception he has proven nothing...but i think he can provide a nice boost in a steve kerr/bj armstrong role in the triangle
> 
> that's awesome in a " wont do anything to make them competitive in a little way bit
> 
> 
> 
> "camping is always fun....
> 
> 
> you should leave that 4th phone mail
> 
> 
> camping is always fun...
> 
> ...
> 
> or they just leave Pau to go on his own and don't bury any other part of their cap number on anything that doesn't bring them value and no "SANE" person is going to call Amare "VALUE" in your or my life time kid
> 
> 
> 
> *SORRY JUST GOING TO EDIT STUFF AND STUFF BUT JESUS THIS IS DUMBER THAN A HAMMER AND A DRILL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHICH ONE DEALS WITH A SCREW
> 
> 
> SERIOUSLY
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OR
> 
> 
> THEY COULD JUST LET HIM LEAVE AND PAY NO DAMN THING FOR NO DAMN THING?*


----------



## jnrjr79

> ‏@dan_bernstein
> #NBA source: "#Bulls are #1 on Carmelo's list. Up to them to make it happen." Must clear $15-17 MM cap space, possible sign/trade.


https://twitter.com/dan_bernstein/status/479336109285965824


----------



## Da Grinch

e-monk said:


> Da Grinch said:
> 
> 
> 
> i doubt the lakers will kill their 2015 flexibility for pau , and i doubt pau will take a 1 year deal ...this way the lakers get something for him when in most scenerios he leaves for nothing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> money , players , future picks *they don't have this shit you know?*
> 
> 
> 
> freddette wont cost much more than the min. or vet exception he has proven nothing...but i think he can provide a nice boost in a steve kerr/bj armstrong role in the triangle
> 
> that's awesome in a " wont do anything to make them competitive in a little way bit
> 
> 
> 
> "camping is always fun....
> 
> 
> you should leave that 4th phone mail
> 
> 
> camping is always fun...
> 
> ...
> 
> or they just leave Pau to go on his own and don't bury any other part of their cap number on anything that doesn't bring them value and no "SANE" person is going to call Amare "VALUE" in your or my life time kid
> 
> 
> 
> *SORRY JUST GOING TO EDIT STUFF AND STUFF BUT JESUS THIS IS DUMBER THAN A HAMMER AND A DRILL TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHICH ONE DEALS WITH A SCREW
> 
> 
> SERIOUSLY
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OR
> 
> 
> THEY COULD JUST LET HIM LEAVE AND PAY NO DAMN THING FOR NO DAMN THING?*
> 
> 
> 
> until you learn how to use the quote button maybe you want to leave it be for a while ok sport, your post is ridiculous.
Click to expand...


----------



## e-monk

in all honesty I don't remember posting that - must have blacked out, my apologies for both the mess and the hostile tone

but 

a)the Knicks don't have cap space, picks or any players that the Lakers or anyone else want - they don't own a first rounder in the 2014 or 2016 drafts and therefore (under the terms of the CBA) cant trade their pick in 2015 and they are capped out and burdened by bad contracts - speaking of which

b) Pau leaving for nothing is pretty much assumed but that actually does have a return on it, cap space and tax relief, which is superior to capping themselves out this coming season by paying the rest of that god awful contract for the rotting corpse of Stat as you proposed

and 

c) your proposed signings of Ferdette &/or Livingston would be of little or no consequence


----------



## Ballscientist

Amare has Negative trade value. It will need to pack with Knicks 2 future first rounders (2024 and 2026?)


----------



## Stanley Yelnats

Ballscientist said:


> Amare has Negative trade value. It will need to pack with Knicks 2 future first rounders (2024 and 2026?)


2024 and 2026? Lol that's 10 years away man.


----------



## Ballscientist

Perfect news is that

Bobcats are willing to absorb a bad contract with 2 early first round picks.

How about Amare/picks to Bobcats and let Melo leave for nothing?

Mavs have a cap space. Chandler to Mavs for a 2nd round pick. 

......Knicks can sign 3 stars.


----------



## Ballscientist

Obviously Rose like Kevin Love, not Melo.

I think Kevin Love cost a lot of more than Melo. Melo could be completely free of charge.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on...-rose-prefers-kevin-love-over-carmelo-anthony


----------



## Damian Necronamous

If Melo decides to leave NY but wants big money then a S&T with the Bulls would seem to be the best-case scenario for all parties. 

Carmelo Anthony & J.R. Smith
FOR
Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy, Rights to 16th and 19th picks in the draft

From Chicago's POV: They keep Taj Gibson and Tony Snell, and they can afford to bring Mirotic over from Europe this season. Melo would need to sign for around $110M over 5 years.

From NY's POV: Yes, they still have to pay Boozer a lot of money this season, but they free themselves from Smith's awful contract so that they have almost entirely cleared the slate for next summer. They've also added a couple first round picks to go alongside Hardaway Jr. and Shumpert.

Who knows? the East is so bad that a starting lineup of Ennis/Hardaway Jr/Dunleavy/Boozer/Chandler may even be able to make the playoffs!


----------



## thebizkit69u

A sign and trade max deal for Melo is a killer down the road. If you think the Boozer deal is an albatross, just wait till we are paying Rose and a 35-36 year old Melo 45+ million dollars alone.


----------



## Ballscientist

If you amnesty Boozer, you only account $6 million of Boozer's salary against the cap?

After dealing gibson for an unprotected first round, you have $17 million to sign Melo?


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> A sign and trade max deal for Melo is a killer down the road. If you think the Boozer deal is an albatross, just wait till we are paying Rose and a 35-36 year old Melo 45+ million dollars alone.



Melo wouldn't be 35 or 36. If he signs a four-year deal, it expires when he's 33.


----------



## jnrjr79

Ballscientist said:


> If you amnesty Boozer, you only account $6 million of Boozer's salary against the cap?
> 
> After dealing gibson for an unprotected first round, you have $17 million to sign Melo?



None of Boozer's salary counts against the cap if he's amnestied.

The Bulls would be able to free up $17M in cap room _without_ dealing away Gibson for nothing. They'd have Carmelo's full max of $20-odd million if they dealt Taj. (This is all assuming Dunleavy has already been dealt).


----------



## thebizkit69u

jnrjr79 said:


> Melo wouldn't be 35 or 36. If he signs a four-year deal, it expires when he's 33.


"IF"

In a sign and trade you better believe Melo wants all the money and years he can get. 

If its a 4 year deal, I'm almost certain there would be a player option for the 5th year.


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> "IF"
> 
> In a sign and trade you better believe Melo wants all the money and years he can get.
> 
> If its a 4 year deal, I'm almost certain there would be a player option for the 5th year.



Four years is the max length he can get from the Bulls. There can be no player options or any other mechanisms that would extend it beyond 4 years. So, Melo will be 33, not 35 or 36.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q92


----------



## thebizkit69u

jnrjr79 said:


> Four years is the max length he can get from the Bulls. There can be no player options or any other mechanisms that would extend it beyond 4 years. So, Melo will be 33, not 35 or 36.
> 
> http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q92


Well he would be 34 not 31 yet I'm still not fond of paying for pay performance. It's good to know that he can't be given a player option in a sign and trade. I guess now the real question is, what's it going to take to get him here?


----------



## Dornado

Melo is starting things off in Chicago: http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on...-will-start-free-agency-tour-with-bulls-first

12:01 am


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> Well he would be 34 not 31 yet I'm still not fond of paying for pay performance. It's good to know that he can't be given a player option in a sign and trade. I guess now the real question is, what's it going to take to get him here?


He will be 33. I actually look this stuff up, y'know? Birthday is 5/29. So 33 unless he takes the Bulls to the Finals.


----------



## jnrjr79

Dornado said:


> Melo is starting things off in Chicago: http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on...-will-start-free-agency-tour-with-bulls-first
> 
> 12:01 am


I'm looking forward to relentlessly reloading Twitter.


----------



## thebizkit69u

jnrjr79 said:


> He will be 33. I actually look this stuff up, y'know? Birthday is 5/29. So 33 unless he takes the Bulls to the Finals.


He would be days away from 34 ohhh Sorry. 

The point is the same. I'm not a fan of paying max money for past performances. Have people not learned a damn thing from guys like Joe Johnson who basically played a few hundred minutes less than Anthony by age 29. 

Joe Johnson age 29 18.2 ppg Age 32 15.8 ppg
Vince Carter 29 24.2 ppg Age 33 16.6 ppg
Dwyane Wade, etc. 

Players seem to peak at 30 and then decline each year after. While I feel that Carmelo will be more Kobe than Vince carter in terms of scoring, I'm just supremely more comfortable signing him via free agency over a sign and trade.


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> He would be days away from 34 ohhh Sorry.
> 
> The point is the same. I'm not a fan of paying max money for past performances. Have people not learned a damn thing from guys like Joe Johnson who basically played a few hundred minutes less than Anthony by age 29.
> 
> Joe Johnson age 29 18.2 ppg Age 32 15.8 ppg
> Vince Carter 29 24.2 ppg Age 33 16.6 ppg
> Dwyane Wade, etc.
> 
> Players seem to peak at 30 and then decline each year after. While I feel that Carmelo will be more Kobe than Vince carter in terms of scoring, I'm just supremely more comfortable signing him via free agency over a sign and trade.


You're the one who keeps nit-picking about age without, y'know, being factual. You said he would be 35-36. You were 2+ years off. That really matters for purposes of evaluating the deal, as does its maximum potential length. Not sure why you're giving me a hard time for noting the correct information.


----------



## jnrjr79

Personally, I think Melo's game isn't overly dependent upon athleticism and a 4-year deal is a fine risk.

Also, it's time to effing win already. If Melo got the team one championship and he had a down year at the end of his contract, I am more than fine with that.

If 30 is too old, we better quickly warn every team in the NBA that would like to lock up LeBron to a max contract.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: The Melo Thread (Meeting w/Bulls at 12:01)*

Knicks have made decision to offer $129 million to Melo.

How much are you going to offer?

My chance projection:

Knicks [email protected]

Bulls 20%

Lakers 20%

Mavs 20%

Rockets 5%


----------



## jnrjr79

*Re: The Melo Thread (Meeting w/Bulls at 12:01)*



Ballscientist said:


> Knicks have made decision to offer $129 million to Melo.


Link?


----------



## Dornado

So now I'm not sure when we're meeting with 'Melo, earlier reports said midnight...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/483832390263926785


----------



## yodurk

Dornado said:


> So now I'm not sure when we're meeting with 'Melo, earlier reports said midnight...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/483832390263926785


Wonder if the reporting was just bad. Could have easily just been calling Melo at 12:01 AM (technically they weren't supposed to talk before then) and then a meeting later today.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Best reading about Melo/Boozer. I enjoy!*

http://pippenainteasy.com/2014/07/0...ed&utm_medium=Network&utm_campaign=RelatedTag



> Carmelo Anthony is not coming to the Chicago Bulls, guaranteed.
> 
> Kevin Love is not coming to the Chicago Bulls, guaranteed.
> 
> UNLESS…





> According to Mitch Lawrence of the New York Daily News, Chicago Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf may not sign off on the one time amnesty clause to waive Carlos Boozer.





> The amnesty rumors have been going on for so long, every team knows that Boozer will be gone in some form of fashion real soon. Why give up assets for a player that they can get for cheap later?


----------



## Dornado

Lot's of speculation in that article, mostly based on the easily dispelled concept that Reinsdorf won't pay for a winner.


----------



## Dornado

Bulls Making Sales Pitch to Anthony at Decked Out United Center



> CHICAGO (AP) — The Chicago Bulls are making the hard sell for Carmelo Anthony.
> 
> The Knicks superstar free agent arrived at a decked-out United Center on Tuesday in a limobus with coach Tom Thibodeau and two other people, a police SUV trailing behind.
> 
> Anthony walked past the Michael Jordan statue, waving to a small group of cheering fans as he went inside.
> 
> The Bulls believe they have a strong pitch and a simple selling point: Anthony can transform a playoff team into a championship contender.
> 
> They believe uniting Anthony with Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah, who arrived earlier at the arena, would put them in position to contend for their first title since Jordan and Scottie Pippen led the way to two three-peats in the 1990s. And they certainly made their feelings clear on Tuesday, turning the arena into one giant welcome mat.
> 
> Two giant digital images above the entrance on Madison Street showed Anthony in a Bulls No. 7 jersey dribbling next to a championship trophy, fans stopping to take pictures. Another image around the corner also showed him in a jersey dribbling.
> 
> Signs wrapping around corners of the building and stacked on top of each other read, “Carmelo Anthony and Chicago basketball” and “Melo” with a cropped Bulls logo.


----------



## Dornado

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/484029690907082753


----------



## Dornado




----------



## Dornado




----------



## Dornado




----------



## Dornado

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/484071664955568128


----------



## jnrjr79

Alex Kennedy tweeted Rose worked out for Melo to prove his health.

Whoa.


----------



## thebizkit69u

jnrjr79 said:


> Alex Kennedy tweeted Rose worked out for Melo to prove his health.
> 
> Whoa.


Yeah....... If this is true, I can understand why Rose would be a bit apprehensive about "recruiting". 

Hes no dancing monkey.


----------



## yodurk

SMART move by Rose with the in-person workout for Melo. That really did take some humility. It really confuses given the comments the previous day, so maybe this was his camp's furious effort to back peddle after realizing they made another idiotic PR move.


----------



## Dornado

It could be that when Rose hears people asking him about "recruiting" he thinks back to times when he was "recruited" as a top prospect and associates it more with constantly hounding someone college-style, or at minimum going to greater lengths than just showing up when the guy is in town. That could at least explain some of his responses (though I still think they were tone deaf). 

From what I hear (on Mully and Hanley earlier this morning maybe?) he spoke with 'Melo in the lockerroom for about 20 minutes and did the workout thing. I guess we'll see what kind of impact that has.


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> Yeah....... If this is true, I can understand why Rose would be a bit apprehensive about "recruiting".
> 
> Hes no dancing monkey.



Yeah, that is rather humiliating, but I'm glad if true that he took one for the team. I can understand why Melo would want the reassurance.


----------



## thebizkit69u

jnrjr79 said:


> Yeah, that is rather humiliating, but I'm glad if true that he took one for the team. I can understand why Melo would want the reassurance.


I would like to know who's idea it was. If the bulls flat out made Rose do this and Melo signs elsewhere, I can imagine rose never recruiting a free agent again.


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> I would like to know who's idea it was. If the bulls flat out made Rose do this and Melo signs elsewhere, I can imagine rose never recruiting a free agent again.



Which was just where we were anyway, so...


----------



## Ballscientist

I think Bulls really don't want to amnesty Boozer and they can't amnesty Rose per CBA rules.

Report: Knicks don't want Boozer.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....t-points-in-bulls-pursuit-of-carmelo-anthony/

Any proposal that can make it work? Melo wants to join the Bulls and want Noah to stay.


----------



## jnrjr79

Ballscientist said:


> I think Bulls really don't want to amnesty Boozer and they can't amnesty Rose per CBA rules.
> 
> Report: Knicks don't want Boozer.
> 
> http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....t-points-in-bulls-pursuit-of-carmelo-anthony/
> 
> Any proposal that can make it work? Melo wants to join the Bulls and want Noah to stay.


Why would they amnesty Rose? Sheesh.

Go read the latest Mark Deeks article if you want to see how the Bulls can pay Melo without dealing Boozer to NY. Very doable fallback option.


----------



## yodurk

thebizkit69u said:


> I would like to know who's idea it was. If the bulls flat out made Rose do this and Melo signs elsewhere, I can imagine rose never recruiting a free agent again.


If I had 1 guess, it's that Team Rose felt the need to do this after the negative backlash at the comments released a day before free agency began.

Something tells me the front office couldn't "make" Rose do this. How successful have they been making him do anything against his will the past 2.5 years.


----------



## thebizkit69u

If Phil Jackson sticks to his word and refuses to give Melo the max, hes a Bull. The problem with this thinking is that people think Dolan will go over his head and offer Melo the max. Looking at the constant reports of who the Bulls are interested in, I think the Bulls know that Melo is a pipe dream.


----------



## Ballscientist

Mavs have better coach, better championship players, bigger cap?



> What does Cuban hope Melo values?
> 
> He tells 105.3 The Fan that he'll make clear "why we think it's better (in Dallas) than where you are or where your other options are. And so that applies to playing with Dirk, coaching, our style, our culture.''


http://mavericks.scout.com/story/1405825-donuts-dirk-melo-s-mavs-meeting-day?s=268


----------



## Da Grinch

Ballscientist said:


> Mavs have better coach, better championship players, bigger cap?
> 
> 
> 
> http://mavericks.scout.com/story/1405825-donuts-dirk-melo-s-mavs-meeting-day?s=268




bigger cap yes ...that other stuff no.


----------



## Marcus13

I read that the Bulls offered Melo $15 mil which he wont take. Who knows how factual any of these reports are at this point tho


----------



## Dornado

Marcus13 said:


> I read that the Bulls offered Melo $15 mil which he wont take. Who knows how factual any of these reports are at this point tho


Link?


----------



## Marcus13

Dornado said:


> Link?


Broussard tweeted it yesterday and it's now conveniently off of his page. If you just use twitter search and type Broussard $15 you'll see plenty of quote tweets from it.


----------



## e-monk

binged it

Marc Berman mentioned 16m in the Post as something the Bulls "floated" during their meeting with him - and then made the assumption himself without quote or reference that it wouldn't be enough:

http://nypost.com/2014/07/02/anthony-does-texas-2-step-with-rockets-on-second-day-of-tour/




> According to an NBA source, the Bulls, during Tuesday’s meetings, floated the idea of Anthony making about $16 million per year across four seasons — *a sum that is not going to move the needle away from Anthony’s pre-trip gut feeling to stick with the Knicks.*


----------



## Dornado

I mean, my assumption is that the Bulls essentially told Anthony "You can make X and be surrounded by A, B and C or you can make Y surrounded by less", since they could theoretically clear more space than the $16m


----------



## Ballscientist

I think Finals 2 are Knicks and Bulls. Knicks will not entertain Bulls S & T.

Knciks offer 129 million.

Bulls have decided to keep Gibson and Butler. The max that Bulls can offer is $76 million ( my calculation). 

Differ: $53 million.


----------



## jnrjr79

Ballscientist said:


> I think Finals 2 are Knicks and Bulls. Knicks will not entertain Bulls S & T.



Crazytown. If the Knicks are going to lose Melo, Phil is not so stupid as to fail to get some assets in return. Windhorst was reporting the same on TV yesterday.


----------



## Da Grinch

jnrjr79 said:


> Crazytown. If the Knicks are going to lose Melo, Phil is not so stupid as to fail to get some assets in return. Windhorst was reporting the same on TV yesterday.


personally I agree . 

pj just came on , who knows he may deal the bulls some depth and get some assets .

although I have always felt his decision hinges on lala's comfort level outside of ny and LA


----------



## Ballscientist

What should you do if Melo's agent said something like this?

Melo wants to play for Bulls if the money is right, otherwise he will re-sign with Knicks.


----------



## yodurk

Dornado said:


> I mean, my assumption is that the Bulls essentially told Anthony "You can make X and be surrounded by A, B and C or you can make Y surrounded by less", since they could theoretically clear more space than the $16m


Yes, this exactly. I highly doubt the Bulls said they can offer X amount of money, take it or leave it. They likely talked through a number of scenarios. Some people said well then why is Taj Gibson at this meeting, since Taj would be traded in some scenarios, but keep in mind it is unlikely Taj & Noah were in the room for the entire string of meetings.


----------



## Dornado

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/486922940890742784


----------



## Dornado

Stephen A Smith is also reporting that Melo will stay in NYC, for what it is worth.


----------



## Diable

Melo probably intends to pass Go and collect 129 million dollars.


----------



## taco_daddy

Dornado said:


> Stephen A Smith is also reporting that Melo will stay in NYC, for what it is worth.


Not a shock to me. I expected that all along.


----------



## yodurk

Woj latest tweet implies Melo will re-sign for the $129M w/ Knicks, but that could be merely to buy him time to see if Phil can bring in more help while still getting paid the full max.

I extrapolate from this that Melo could use this to buy time to see how Derrick Rose bounces back this upcoming season. If Chicago still looks appealing in 6 months or longer, he could force his way out.

I wonder if Melo will push for a no trade clause so he can dictate terms of the trade (i.e. decide his team)?

Knicks should be happy b/c they have more control over getting a return of assets via trade this way.


----------



## Dornado

Not sure if people have been following this, but we're apparently not out of the Melo picture quite yet... lot's of rumors about us trying to work a sign and trade, and the prevailing opinion seems to be that it is down to NYC and Chicago.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Dornado said:


> Not sure if people have been following this, but we're apparently not out of the Melo picture quite yet... lot's of rumors about us trying to work a sign and trade, and the prevailing opinion seems to be that it is down to NYC and Chicago.


Yeah, looks like LA is out of it now. 

Thibs has apparently been recruiting Melo by phone like crazy. 

Wade and Melo? I can live with that if its a possibility.


----------



## Dornado

I'd prefer not to add Wade.


----------



## Ballscientist

If the Bulls are 100% interested in Melo, Bulls need to give Melo Max.

Comparing to Rockets and Bosh.


----------



## jnrjr79

Don't think Wade and Melo works unless Wade is coming for the MLE (and why would he?).


----------



## Rhyder

The best way the Bulls have to gain leverage in the situation is to offer Melo a 4-year deal with an opt-out clause after year two (we retain his early Bird rights) that he agrees to in principle. Melo could consider it because then we could offer him a 4-year max deal with 7.5% raises after his first two years at age 32.

That way, it forces NY to S&T him to us and acquire assets, or lose those assets by us trading them to other teams to clear cap room to sign him outright.


----------



## Ballscientist

Rhyder said:


> The best way the Bulls have to gain leverage in the situation is to offer Melo a 4-year deal with an opt-out clause after year two (we retain his early Bird rights) that he agrees to in principle. Melo could consider it because then we could offer him a 4-year max deal with 7.5% raises after his first two years at age 32.


New CBA rules do not allow you to do this. If Melo's starting salary is $8 million now, then at the age of 32, his starting salary is $11 million (that is your max?)

Many Bulls fans suggest that Bulls trade Boozer/picks for Melo. I disagree.


----------



## Rhyder

Ballscientist said:


> New CBA rules do not allow you to do this. If Melo's starting salary is $8 million now, then at the age of 32, his starting salary is $11 million (that is your max?)
> 
> Many Bulls fans suggest that Bulls trade Boozer/picks for Melo. I disagree.


Not true.

The Bulls can offer 175% of Melo's previous salary or the max after two years, whichever is less.

You are assuming the Bulls can't trade anyone to free up cap space. By my calculations, the Bulls can clear up to about $16M without much trouble if that's what it comes down to.


----------



## yodurk

My suspicion on Melo right now is that he wants to come to Chicago but only for the max. 

If he was fully committed to returning to the Knicks, it would've been done by now. Since it's dragging out this long, it likely means Melo wants Chicago. (reliable reporters are saying Lakers are out)

The delay makes sense b/c the Bulls might be either trying to free the necessary cap space, or work out a S&T with the Knicks.

Would not surprise me if the Knicks are refusing to facilitate a S&T. If true, they are morons. Why would they want a player making $20M+ per season who doesn't even want to be there. Furthermore they can get some assets from Chicago to help their rebuild. They are not close to winning anything so they just need to accept that a rebuild is in their best interests right now, rather than swimming in mediocrity. Just accept the fact that it's best for Melo & best for New York if the 2 parties split. 

I thought Phil Jackson understood this, now I'm not so sure.


----------



## yodurk

UPDATE: Woj just tweeted that Melo is returning to the Knicks. Melo hasn't formally notified the Knicks but will within the next few hours. Woj must have received word from someone in Melo's camp that it's 100% decided.

Too bad...will be interesting to see what the deal breaker was for the Bulls. We saw all these reports saying Melo's agent and family were pushing for Chicago, and Phil certainly did little to keep Melo around. In spite of all that Melo decides to stay. I am not surprised by the end result, just how long it took and the strange twists & turns to get to the blinding obvious.

On to plan B...


----------



## yodurk

Woj: "Anthony reportedly believes in Phil Jackson's ability to remake the Knicks into a title contender."

LOL...good luck with that, Melo. Enjoy the upcoming season.


----------



## rosenthall

It'll be interesting to hear in the coming weeks about what almost-was. 

Were the Bulls unwilling to part with Taj (aka similar to Pau years ago)? Was it an inability to ship off Boozer in a 3 team trade? 

Was Phil absolutely refusing to do any S&T? Or did Melo just want to stay comfortable and collect his checks?

In the end I think Melo and his wife are very comfortable in NYC, have a hard time passing on an extra 50 million, and were happy to believe in the power of Phil's plans to help make it easier for them to stay.

I don't think I'd want Melo for 129 million on a rebuilding team, but that's none of my business now.


----------



## Ballscientist

Now it has to be 3-way deal.

Third team send young all-star to Knicks
third team accept Boozer/picks
Melo to Bulls


----------



## yodurk

I keep hearing about Phil Jackson's "plan". IMO, that is just a line being given to the press. Melo just wanted the sure thing, i.e,. the money and comfortable lifestyle as the man in New York. Whereas a title in Chicago is not a sure thing. 

He is free to choose of course, however I sure as heck don't want to hear him ever complain about lack of help or wanting to be traded. He made his bed, time for him to sleep in it.


----------

