# Williams Blows Up in Locker Room



## DickieHurtz (May 28, 2002)

He claims there's a rift between players and coaches. He's demanding that changes be made. I hear that Williams really cut loose tonight after the game and it should be a headline story tommorrow.


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## grizzoistight (Jul 16, 2002)

*where did u hear that*

he should be mad at himself for not bein able to shoot anymore


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Sounds like a bad case of insubordination. Am I reading this correctly?


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## Bullsmaniac (Jun 17, 2002)

You beat me to this poat.Here'swhat I heard...


I heard Jay complaining to Bruce Levine on ESPN 1000. He said "we should change things up, obviously thing aren't working the way it is now" "Jamal and I should play together or just change the overall rotation etc" "I am not blaming the lost on it but we should change things" 
Jalen waas told about the comment and said "That's just stupid." 

Looks like the 2 can't co-exist tome. Jay wants to be the leader and Jalen knock him back on his seat!!!


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

*This is what we get for drafting a Dukie*

we got Brand and we were lucky he panned out. Now JWill wants things to be changed why dont you hit a few jumpers first and make a few layups before you talk. He has been the most dissapointing player this year by far. Once again the curse of the Dukie strikes again.


But he does bring up some good points too bad he is not in a position to talk.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

The spin will be that it was just frustration after a particularly difficult loss.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

i noticed jay looked pissed off when jamal did that touch pass to tyson for the reverse slam, good sport there jay! 

with that said.. i agree with him and think changes in our offense need to be made.


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## airety (Oct 29, 2002)

Are you serious? Are you kiddin me? Jay is calling for the coaches and management's head? Does he REALIZE that he has done NOTHING in the NBA?

I won't hear that sorta crap from Rose, nevermind Jay (in college I was Jason) Williams. Whether it's true or not, no player should EVER state what needs to be done with the coaching staff or management of a team.

That's like you or me, during a newspaper piece on your company, telling the reporter that this place needs new management so you can produce.

"They got it totally wrong with the stupid 1 hour lunches and 15 min breaks every 3 hours. We need 5 minute breaks every hour and that hour for lunch needs to be split so we have 30 mins in the afternoon to grab some coffee. This system is totally hampering my productivity and ruining my career. Either I gotta get out of here, but it's not me its the system. My supervisor needs to be fired, maybe the CEO and VPs need to also so this ship can be righted, because its them thats keeping this company back."

Haha, what a hoot.


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## Sangha (Jul 24, 2002)

I don't think Jay is fitting in with this Bulls team, he's my least favourite Bull and I hope he's traded for a more seasoned point guard in the offseason.


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## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

No one has been a bigger Jay supporter than me 

But seriously ... he really needs to geta grip 

You don't come out and throw tantrums when you haven't done jack and you don't have a pot to piz in 

Naivety in the extreme


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## Bullsmaniac (Jun 17, 2002)

To add he also said:
"maybe we need to trade somebody or trade me or whatever. I don't mean I want to be traded, love Chicago and this city deserves better than this" 

Was that a hint Jay????


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## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

I thought Mama Williams said that she brought her Jay up not to question authority and to respect his supervisors


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## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bullsmaniac</b>!
> To add he also said:
> "maybe we need to trade somebody or trade me or whatever. I don't mean I want to be traded, love Chicago and this city deserves better than this"
> 
> Was that a hint Jay????


Yeah that's real smart from a supposed smart guy - just when his trade value is in the toliet 

What a buttlick


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

*here's the link*

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...liams,1,2168688.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines

"You lose so many games, it's definitely frustrating. It makes you second guess yourself and everything else going on here," said Williams

"If we don't get better, maybe some things need to happen. Maybe I go, some other people go," said Williams

there's no real spin or damage control in this article, it's just full of quotes like these.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

Thanks for the tip, Dickie. As you said it seems to be making its way into the print media:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...lliams,1,2168688.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Cartwright will no doubt try to downplay it. But the truth is, Williams committed a major no-no by airing dirty laundry in the press:

Asked after a 104-89 loss to Orlando if he thought there was a rift between Bulls players and coaches, Williams said: "I think so, a little bit." 

Rose knows you don't make these kind of broad statements that pit players against the coaching staff to the press. And you sure as hell don't put words in your teammates mouthes. True or not he did his best to minimize the potential damage.

Teammate Jalen Rose disagreed that there's friction between players and coaches. "That's stupid," he said. "I don't see it, hear it or get it." 

The reality, however, is that Williams and Rose have now created a perception that the two of them are not on the same page on this very serious issue. And guess who's going to come out the winner in this little power struggle? Why, its going to be the guy who backed management, Jalen Rose. Williams may have burned too many bridges this time. 

Again, I can't wait to see how Cartwright deals with this. I'd say a small suspension might be in order...unless BC doesn't have the stomach to put the little twerp in his place.


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## nelmsy (Nov 21, 2002)

This is my first time posting, but I've been reading posts on this forum for about 3 months, it's funny to me how everyone in this forum complains about BC or Krause and how they want rid of them and I've also read a ton of post about Jay and Jamal starting together, but now that Jay comes out and says exactly what most of you have been saying he gets bashed. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Jay has played great this year, but I do think he will be a good player in the future, and any player on the team has a right to voice his opinion, if it was Jalen who said it you guys probably would have loved it, even though I don't think Jalen plays that well half the time. Its just funny how much he gets bashed on this board, even after saying what you guys have been saying all season.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

there's really no problem with him suggesting that he and crawford play togeather, i'm all for that. the problem is statements like "Maybe I go, some people go" if he's complaining about team unity quotes like that aren't going to help. it sounds like he's given up on this season and given up on some of his teammates.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Jay had a worse game than Crawford. He was probably frustrated because he felt he wasn't given enough of a chance, after having some coldness in his game. As a competitor, he really believes in himself enough to believe that when he's not on the floor, doing things his way, the Bulls are a worse team. And he IS essentially blaming the loss on that.

As for the "rift" between players and coaches, I envision Jay to be really enthusiastic in practice, trying to communicate with BC and make suggestions about plays and offenses. I haven't heard a lot of statements that say that Jay is a "good learner" or anything like that... he works hard, but I have a feeling he tries to really step up and be someone. That's a sign of a good leader, but as many of you have been saying, he needs to earn his respect first. It doesn't mean that his ideas are bad, it's just that he should get used to people not listening to him just yet.

That's probably a tough pill to swallow. He probably watched the game and felt frustrated DURING it... I think he needs a mentor-type figure that can really keep him calm and point out rational things that his zealous criticism is blinding him from. Hopefully Cartwright can help him out, or maybe even Fred Hoiberg, the quintessential nice guy. It's not going to be his parents, or Jalen, for sure.

For instance. I have a strange feeling that Jay thinks that the Bulls lost on offense... that's probably what was bugging him so much. He really believes in himself as an offensive player, which is not inaccurate, and he saw the Bulls coming up with play after play on defense but not converting on offense, especially in the 3rd quarter. The Bulls DID run some triangle offense, especially that play they use to open up a 3-pointer (when Jalen attracts a double-team they swing the ball out to the open man). Jay probably doesn't like that kind of stuff... he likes it when people take it hard to the hole.

But if a calm and rational voice would show him some film and point out that the Bulls really didn't do a great job on defense, especially perimeter defense on zone-busters like Garrity and Giricek, he should be more humbled. His own defensive game isn't that strong...

He needs to be submissive to the team. Until Jalen is either traded or takes a more secondary role (neither of which will be happening this season), he has to humble himself for the sake of the team. This "rift" between the players and coaches sounds like he's telling BC one thing and the team is running in a different way.

He has a standard of excellence for himself, and he feels like the team is dragging him down with their haphazard play. 

He just needs a lot more patience (not just tolerance for bad games, but a willingness to accept losing as part of learning), and to be humbled in understanding that he is NOT the leader of this team just yet. He can barely hang on to his minutes...

Oh, and expect Cartwright to bench Williams after this game. Both based on performance and on that little media splash.


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

*That was the best post ever*

written on pure speculation alone.


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## Jammer (May 28, 2002)

*A Solution*

*Trade Jay Williams,straight up, for Mike Dunleavy, Jr. and trade Marcus Fizer, Eddie Robinson and filler for Eddie Jones.* 

_End of problem._


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

I don't think so...

Jay has some beef here. He was obviously told when he was drafted that he would be playing alongside Jamal... he isn't just going to make stuff up.

So why isn't it happening?

If anyone needs to go, it's Rose. I watched him in Indy, and although I like his scoring, I don't like much else about him.

*FREE JAY AND JAMAL! LET THEM PLAY 40MPG TOGETHER!*


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: That was the best post ever*



> Originally posted by <b>DaFuture</b>!
> That was the best post ever written on pure speculation alone.


What does this little snide remark have to do with the thread's subject matter? By using words like "probably" and "envision" along with a few other phrases, Showtyme made it obvious he was expressing a personal opinion...and he sure as hell didn't need you to point that out. I happen to like alot of what Showtyme has to say. Whether its speculation or not, he's always logical in his presentation and when coupled with his hoops IQ, he makes for a very good read.

BTW, I agree with Showtyme that Williams' stupid remarks are borne out of frustration, impatience and inexperience. If there's a silver lining in all of this its that Williams doesn't seem to be the type of person who'll tolerate losing at all. Eventually, if he sticks around, his intollerence of losing may become a driving force that pushes this team towards excellence. But right now, I just wish he'd shut up and lead by example.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

I am a huge Jay Williams fan and agree with what he is saying but there is no doubt that he should not have said all this to the press. This is something you sit down and talk with to the coaches or Krause. This stuff has to stay in house. Despite my being a Williams fan though i am a bulls fan first and i have to wonder if maybe the bulls should have traded Williams on draft day to Golden State for Dunleavy and Adonal Foyle. Then in FA signed Best instead of Marshall. I loved Williams being on the Bulls because i had the best of both worlds with my favorite player on my favorite team but it is obvious the fit isnt right. At this point the only way Williams needs to stay is if Rose is traded this summer for a big SF so Williams and JC start in backcourt together. But honestly losing Jalen would hurt us more right now i am afraid.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> I don't think so...
> 
> Jay has some beef here. He was obviously told when he was drafted that he would be playing alongside Jamal... he isn't just going to make stuff up.
> ...


That's a good point. But after watching TMac run up and down Crawford's face on switches, we'd better have a real defensive stud at sf when JC's playing sg. If JC and JR are simultaneously on the floor at the swing spots, it could get really ugly. You think we give up too many points now? Just wait and see what happens when we've got spagetti arms at both the sg and sf positions at the same time.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I think Showtyme and Retro's posts pretty well summed up my opinions too.

JWill's flipping out because he's on such a garbage team and while his actions stupid and inexusable, I can see and somewhat empathize with where he's coming from. Hell, I see these guys play like crap and I want to rant too. But I'm not being paid millions to do (and say) what's best for the team and he is. Hence, he should have kept his stupid *** mouth shut.

As far as playing Jay and Jamal together, why the hell not? I mean seriously, after the trash we've seen over the past couple of nights, could it get any worse? This season is already a loss as far as winning games goes, so what else is there to do but throw them out there and see what happens? More likely than not the opposing backcourt will score about a thousand points and then both players can stop using it as an excuse.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

I like Jay Williams and I think he'll be a fine player in the L very soon. Read any of my previous posts concerning him.

But please, please stop the complaining!!! <b>He has blamed everyone but himself this year...</b> the coaching, triangle offense, team leadership (Jalen), sportswriters, media, the towel boy at the UC, etc etc. Way too much considering he hasn't proven a whole lot in his NBA career.

As I've always believed, the first sign of real maturity is taking responsibility for one's actions. But Jay seems ready to point fingers at everyone but himself. Hence the view that Jay needs to grow up. In fact, a few players on the Bulls need to grow up as well.

Maybe Jay is backlashing at a negative vibe he's been getting from players and the media. Maybe the losing is getting to him. That's all fine and dandy, but Jay is the one who needs to bring it on the court every night. More is expected out of him considering his stellar collegiate background. Let's face it folks, if Jay had been averaging 15/7 like so many of us expected before the year started.... Jay's ego/complaints wouldn't be an issue right?

C'mon Jay. Stop the complaining and play your game.




VD


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

Vin,

I agree... but how can you play your game when you are obviously playing in an offense that is killing our strenghts and highlighting our weaknesses?


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: A Solution*



> Originally posted by <b>Jammer</b>!
> *Trade Jay Williams,straight up, for Mike Dunleavy, Jr. and trade Marcus Fizer, Eddie Robinson and filler for Eddie Jones.*
> 
> _End of problem._


I'm just about the biggest Jay fan here, but if he's really going to continue to be a problem child, I don't mind a swap for Mikey D. However, I still wouldn't want Eddie Jones.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Re: That was the best post ever*



> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> What does this little snide remark have to do with the thread's subject matter? By using words like "probably" and "envision" along with a few other phrases, Showtyme made it obvious he was expressing a personal opinion...and he sure as hell didn't need you to point that out. I happen to like alot of what Showtyme has to say. Whether its speculation or not, he's always logical in his presentation and when coupled with his hoops IQ, he makes for a very good read.
> ...


Kismet!

You write so well it's almost, dare I say, Shakespearian!?!?

Keep up the good work.

(And by the way I couldn't agree more with your assessment of Williams in the second paragraph.)

:yes:


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> I like Jay Williams and I think he'll be a fine player in the L very soon. Read any of my previous posts concerning him.
> 
> But please, please stop the complaining!!! <b>He has blamed everyone but himself this year...</b> the coaching, triangle offense, team leadership (Jalen), sportswriters, media, the towel boy at the UC, etc etc. Way too much considering he hasn't proven a whole lot in his NBA career.
> ...


Vin, I agree. Well said.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> Vin,
> 
> I agree... but how can you play your game when you are obviously playing in an offense that is killing our strenghts and highlighting our weaknesses?


Hey Retro.

There are some things about this team that stinks.  Including, but not limited to:

1) offense - whether we run the triangle or not, we have one of the slowest offenses in the NBA w/ least amount of ball and player movement
2) coaching - BC has been average and is learning on the job
3) 3 spot - we play 4 on 5 on offense most nights, Trent can't shoot and E-Rob doesn't get many plays called for him plus he can't shoot either
4) too many young players
5) 4 PGs, 4 PFs, 0 SFs and a partridge in a pear tree

Retro, I'm a big Jay backer... and he has shown in 6-8 games this year of thriving in the offense completely. Pushing the tempo, finishing at the hoop, dishing dimes, hitting the trey, etc. Along with that, he's had 15 games or so of pretty consistent production while running the offense well. Point being, I don't think the triangle is the sole factor holding this kid back. If anything, he is still allowed to push up the court w/ the ball, penetrate when needed, hit an open shot, etc. As well he's enjoyed some success running pick and roll, moving w/o the ball in the triangle set, etc.

Plain and simple, I wish that Jay would start taking responsibility for his inconsistent play and stop blaming circumstances.



VD


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## willieblack (Jun 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> Vin,
> 
> I agree... but how can you play your game when you are obviously playing in an offense that is killing our strenghts and highlighting our weaknesses?


Good point Retro, this coaching staff still does not seem to know how to maximize the team's strenghts just yet. A real frustrating thing to watch as a fan...certainly more so for a player on this team who is accustomed to winning. Points well made VD.


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## BamaBull (Jun 24, 2002)

*More like....*



> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> The spin will be that it was just frustration after a particularly difficult loss.


the compilation of a LOT losses(new to him) and the ball hogging of one jalen rose. Remember EARLIER THIS season how rose would never pass him the ball?....I said it before and I am saying it now, Rose needs to go. We are losing at any rate. IF you draft a PG whom you expect to lead the team, why would you need rose? To show Jay all his flaws??? (This is certainly not what Krause had in mind) Bad shooting on a consistant basis? Whining over EVERY call that does not go his way(Tyson caught onto this lead quickly) Talking trash to MJ(again I cannot stand MJ but rose thinks he is at MJ's level? Ha!) 

Again, not ONE university provides all the players in the nba...to say the Bulls are stupid(or words to that effect) for selecting a "dukie" is ludicrus...

This brewha has been in stewing in the pot for some time now.....Rose is NOT a long term solution.:sigh:


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>nelmsy</b>!
> This is my first time posting, but I've been reading posts on this forum for about 3 months, it's funny to me how everyone in this forum complains about BC or Krause and how they want rid of them and I've also read a ton of post about Jay and Jamal starting together, but now that Jay comes out and says exactly what most of you have been saying he gets bashed. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Jay has played great this year, but I do think he will be a good player in the future, and any player on the team has a right to voice his opinion, if it was Jalen who said it you guys probably would have loved it, even though I don't think Jalen plays that well half the time. Its just funny how much he gets bashed on this board, even after saying what you guys have been saying all season.


Welcome, Nelmsy, and off to an impressive start, I might add!


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

He either needs to be given control, or submit.

Look at it this way. What if Jay just starts playing better, and getting good stats, and etc.? Then it's like he still loses, because he has to adjust his game to play within the system, making him more effective in the short term but less effective overall. 

I see it like Marcus Fizer's season trying to be a small forward. What the heck was that all about? There was obviously duplicity, and trying to get him to lose weight and work on his nasty jumper rather than to hammer it down in the paint with his massive frame... what a failure! And really, what a waste of a season for him. Trading Brand was the best thing that could have happened to him.

Jay may not want to see Crawford go, necessarily, but I think he just wants to stop having to compete for the job. He wants the freedom to work on his own without feeling like he has to earn every single minute of playing time. And when he was drafted, I don't think he knew he'd have to compete with Jamal for the PG spot... both guards were making references to playing together. Jay made comments about being "just a guard", not a point or a shooting guard, and Jamal made several positive comments about how he thought they'd play well together.

The fact that Cartwright has his own plans now must be totally frustrating Jay, with the triangle and with a whole bunch of other stuff. He's stubborn, and he's relentless, and Jay feels like he's suffocating... and LOSING like this doesn't help. Jay simply thinks he can do it better, and has probably thought so for a while now.

They either need to just give him a chance and do it his way, or he needs to just give up on whatever he thinks and compromise his own abilities to fit in with the team. I'd rather not see his abilities compromised...

I don't think we need to lose Jalen. I don't think we need to lose Jay, or Jamal... I think it might be Cartwright that needs to change. He's a good coach, and we all like the way that he is disciplined, and tries to really handle the kids. And he gets respect from around the league... but sometimes it seems like he doesn't respect his players as actual players. And of course he's going to be preferential to the big men (as he should be).

I wonder what Jay would be like if he had a Don Nelson or Van Gundy or someone like that in there. I wonder if he'd have these kind of complaints.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>willieblack</b>!
> Good point Retro, this coaching staff still does not seem to know how to maximize the team's strenghts just yet. A real frustrating thing to watch as a fan...certainly more so for a player on this team who is accustomed to winning. Points well made VD.


Do you sometimes wonder what our boys could accomplish in a Dallas Mavericks type of system? One way to find out might be to lure Donnie Nelson away from Cuban.


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## willieblack (Jun 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you sometimes wonder what our boys could accomplish in a Dallas Mavericks type of system? One way to find out might be to lure Donnie Nelson away from Cuban.


I don't think that'll ever happen, but....with the speed(the bigs included) on this team it would be something to watch :yes:


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Guys, let's think here for a moment...everybody in this thread has made some great points, but here is what I think it all comes down to:

Jerry Krause is not going to trade Jay Williams.

I remember watching the game in which Jay was scoring his first ever NBA triple double. The crowd was going nuts. The cameras panned to Jerry Krause up in his skybox as Williams drained two free throws inside of a minute. 

Jerry just watched very closely and didn't even smile.

The point is this: Jerry said on draft night that there was never a doubt what the Bulls were going to do with the #2 pick. Jay was his man and he got him. But he's not going to get too high or too low based on the events of any one day. Neither did he "force" the coaching staff to give Jay 40 minutes a game and have him take more shots that Rose, nor will he trade Jay when he reached a new level of mouthing off to the press last night. 

Krause gets laughed at for being fat, he gets ridiculed for trading Elton Brand, and you know what...he doesn't let anyone affect his judgement. 

It is my guess that Jay has not completely soured in Jerry's mind, and that he isn't really considering trading him unless something blows him away. And we know how Krause has been suggested to overestimate his players' worth. 

A trade for Dunleavy was suggested above, and whereas it might make some sense right now, can you see Krause admitting he made a mistake and trading for a player taken lower in the same draft? Nope, not I, and the reason is that I don't think he'll do that is because I believe he is still convinced that Williams will be the biggest star of anyone available with the #2 pick in last year's draft.

My conclusion: Jay isn't going anywhere. He's in for the long haul. Jerry ain't even close to budging yet. 

Just my opinion. I'm just judging what I think another man could be thinking.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you sometimes wonder what our boys could accomplish in a Dallas Mavericks type of system? One way to find out might be to lure Donnie Nelson away from Cuban.


I wonder the same thing Kismet, and I've been pondering this for a couple weeks (especially since reading a recent SI article on the Princeton offense). What if Jay was given full reign as the initiator on offense, ala J-Kidd in NJ, Bibby in Sacto, Nash in Dallas?

Here's the problem however. Those offenses are predicated on players who can pass first, move without the ball second, and shoot third. Sadly, the Bulls simply <b>do not</b> have the personnel to run that offense. We have too many plodders in the lane, no effective wing players, too few jumpshooters, too little effective movement w/o the ball, and largely inept passers and distributors.

Let's face it, the BUlls offense (call it the triangle or whatever you want) is mostly to pound the ball down low and supplement this with the outside shot. And with the emergence of Chandler and Curry, with Fizer and Marshall around for a few more years, will this change? Probably not. Teams in the West have big men who can do it all (pass, shoot, bang down low) ala C-Webb, Vlade, Raef, Dirk, etc. We have plodders...albeit good ones at that 

It would take some type of epiphany for the Bulls to suddenly change their offensive schema... and yes probably a couple trades. But I will say, as I've posted before, that Jay can flourish in the Bulls current offense. It'll take time, but he can do it.



VD


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## PrimeTime (Jan 11, 2003)

It's all frustration in Jay's part.....

He doesn't know the meaning of loosing MUCH, so it's almost like a culture shock to him....he's got some points to be blowing up like this...he knows he's got talent...he knows how to play well...he's just given a chance to do so...he wants Jamal there on his side...he knows what will work...he just wants change since nothing's going right...i would too if nothing going right in my life...i hear you Jay.

BUT guess what?....Mr. Rose doesn't....he still wants to be the point of impact on OFFENSE.....that's sorry.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

*I doubt it...*

He came out like 10 minutes after the game and he didn't seem to be in a good mood......although he didn't say hi to me


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## airety (Oct 29, 2002)

You know, I don't wanna give up on JWill cause I think he'll be a good player, but this whining stuff has to go. The substitutions, the coaches, the other players, management, and most importantly the triangle are all keeping Jay from being a great player according to him. How about he can't let go of Duke and embrace a new league with new systems? Bill Cartwright isn't Coach K, he does things differently. That doesn't mean he doesn't want Jay to succeed.

Jamal has his agent complain to the media, and that pissed me off even though I believed it to be true. Jay constantly goes off on my team and I don't buy half of it, and I start to want him gone.

He's the epitome of a selfish player, doesn't want to be a team player whatsoever.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

FWIW- the bulls locker room was just as explosive during all of the Jordan years.

With that said, it's a really, really, really, really stupid time to rip your teammates and your coach when you are 0 for the last 2 games.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

*My Opinions*



> Williams said other players feel the same way as he does but only he is speaking his mind.


People say that Williams is frustrated with the losing. Well - Eddy, Tyson, Jalen, Donyell and Jamal all came from winning teams and they have yet to say things like this to the press. Sure he's frustrated. They all are. But for Williams to say this is unacceptable. It's sad the the HS kids have more composure with the press that Mr. Duke. Now he's called out other teammates leading to specualtion?

The offense isn't good for him? I used to think that too but the triangle offense isn't the reason he's bricking every shot he takes. And the ones he isn't clanking off the back iron are weak lay-ups that get blocked.

If Crawford said these things people would call for his head.

The reason McGrady and the Magic suceeded is b/c when he was double teamed he kicked the ball out to the open man who hit his jumper. Rose is taking fewer shots than he did at the start of the season. He's running fewer isolations and he has been passing the ball off. (To Hoiberg, Hassell, Williams, Baxter and a bunch of people who can't hit a shot). He still complains to the refs and he still takes about 4 or 5 bad shots a game. When he has an offnight (which is a lot lately) he passes a lot more frequently.

Now Williams, who has done jack **** in the NBA, comes out AGAIN and makes these inane comments. *And this thread turns into a Rose bashing thread?! Unbelievable.* What does Rose have to do with Jason Williams being a total malcontent, jerk and lousy shooter? A wise man once said about Jason, "he's a bum." The fact that his ill-advised comments have turned into another "Rose needs to go" just make me dislike the kid more and more.

Put me on the pro-Crawford bandwagon. That guy has been royaly screwed for two of his three years in the NBA and he handles it like St. Jamal compared to Jason.


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## jackietreehorn (Mar 4, 2003)

I've only just skimmed this thread, so I hope I'm not repeating anything that's been said already, but to me, Jay's biggest problem is Jalen Rose.

While watching the game last night, my eyes were opened. When Jay and Jalen are in the game together, the offense runs through Jalen, when it should be running through the point guard.

Sometimes this isn't a problem, because you see Jalen drive in and make a nice dish to Tyson or Eddy, but most of the time he grabs the ball, watches Jay run around setting screens, trying to get open, and then just decides to break whatever play's been called, go one on one and put up an ugly fade away.

But when Jalen and Jamal are in the game together, it's a completely different story. He actually lets Jamal touch the ball and run the offense. Maybe it's because they're both Wolverines, who knows, but Jalen obviously has a true disdain for Jay.

I think Jalen's the problem, cause he's selfish, has a crap attitude on the floor, whines way too much, etc., etc. I'm sick of seeing him break plays and act like he's the man. Put him on a team with Ricky Davis or something, but get him off the Bulls.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you sometimes wonder what our boys could accomplish in a Dallas Mavericks type of system? One way to find out might be to lure Donnie Nelson away from Cuban.


He would be well on his way to never winning a championship because his team couldn't get a bucket when it mattered or control the flow of the game--Oh wait that is exactly where Dallas is right now. Seriously folks, lets make the entire team change to an offense that dosent work so that player can put up better numbers.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> He would be well on his way to never winning a championship because his team couldn't get a bucket when it mattered or control the flow of the game--Oh wait that is exactly where Dallas is right now. Seriously folks, lets make the entire team change to an offense that dosent work so that player can put up better numbers.


C.C.C.P,

The desire to change the flow of our offense is not for the advancement of one player, it's how some of us believe our talent would be better utilized.

I do not respect any coach or team that insists upon any system of offense/defense/whatever regardless of the players they have on the team. 

As a teacher, I believe in structuring the environment around a student and putting them in the best situation to thrive. It's not the same thing as having my own NBA team (I'm having Sleuth dreams right now...), but that's how I would run my team.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

They barely run the triangle. Williams has been free to drive and get his lay-ups blocked at will.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> They barely run the triangle. Williams has been free to drive and get his lay-ups blocked at will.


Yeah,

I never saw a pick role until this year. The Bulls have changed their entire offense for Jay. It has yet to be seen whether the changes will be productive.

Answer two questions:

Do the Mavs have enough talent to win a championship?
Are the Mavs going to win a championship?


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Furthermore, it has never been the coaching staffs policy not to run. They just don't like when you pad opponents block totals (silly them).


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

And, I am tired of listening to people felate Isiah Thomas for providing a model for the type of offense the Bulls should run and then ripping on the Bulls system. 

If there are any two teams that have closely related material it would be the Bulls and the Pacers. Those same (sometimes dual) upscreens, the concentration on post play and overloading one side...The Bulls are almost running the same offense sans the p and r stuff specifically designed for Jay.

Meanwhile, the Pacers are the posterchild of what type of offense to run if you have a quick smaller point guard and good post play and the Bulls are bashed as limiting their players.

In this case, its all about the players not the system.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Frustration on Jays part. He is tired of losing. But part of this is his fault. But i must say, he did bring up a good point that i thought was right on the money. He said, most teams know what we are going to do. Triangle or not, he is right. The Toronto game was a game that stood out to me as proof of what jay said. Time and time again we tried to get the ball to Curry and Chandler and JYD knew what they were going to do every time! He had a truck load of steals. BC did nothing to change the play pattern. We kept doing the same thing over and over again. 

I also agree with a poster on here who said Jay has blamed everyone else but himself. He wants to play sg while shooting 1-9, 1-10? I sure hope not!! 

Its nice to see two long time members here finally post! Glad to see that. Hope we see more of them!!


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## Killuminati (Jul 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> They barely run the triangle. Williams has been free to drive and get his lay-ups blocked at will.


They may not run the triangle much anymore but there is barely any movement on offense. I was watching last night's game and it was just plain boring to watch their offense. Here's what usually happened:

PF or C inbounds to Jay; Jay slowly dribbles it up the court (not the same Jay we saw blow past Alston all night against the Rap) while Armstrong plays him very tight and physical; Jay then stands just past the half-court line for about 8-9 seconds while the other Bulls set maybe one pick for Rose; Shot clock is almost down to about 7 seconds by the time Jalen gets the ball as the other bulls watch and stand around; Jalen puts up an incredibly tough shot with about 2 seconds left and of course misses it.

Granted it isn't entirely accurate but I saw alot of this in the 3rd Q. 

I always wondered why it was so quiet in the UC with so many people still going to Bulls games. With the Bulls half-dead offense I wouldn't cheer for them either.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/postgame_030303.html



> We need to have better effort, and the effort wasn't there tonight. We might need to start doing some things differently. I see how other teams play against us and the teams know what we do, back and forth, in and out. This is very frustrating. *This is more games than I've lost in my entire life.* It makes you second guess yourself and second guess everything that is going on."


Dammit I'm starting to truly dislike this kid. :upset:


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Lizzy what is wrong with him saying this is more games than he has lost in his life. For heavens sake its true! Now i admit he should have known that we were going to lose at least 45 games this year. But that is something you dont prepare for. With all the winning he has had at HS and college level it is just beginning to wear on him a little. Winning cures all that is wrong and hopefully this team can have a decent finish to the year so they can have a little confidence going into next year.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> Lizzy what is wrong with him saying this is more games than he has lost in his life. For heavens sake its true! Now i admit he should have known that we were going to lose at least 45 games this year. But that is something you dont prepare for. With all the winning he has had at HS and college level it is just beginning to wear on him a little. Winning cures all that is wrong and hopefully this team can have a decent finish to the year so they can have a little confidence going into next year.


He has said it about 100 times this season. Seriously, he's like a broken record on this subject. Tyson and Eddy were on winning treams. Rose and marshall were on play-off teams. They don't bring this up once every two weeks. Is Jay special? Did he think being the #2 pick he'd go to a winning team? 

I wish he'd shut his big fat yapper. (read in a Chris Farley voice)


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## PrimeTime (Jan 11, 2003)

Jay has all the rights to be fed up....they drafted him for his talents...and they don't maximize it.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PrimeTime</b>!
> Jay has all the rights to be fed up....they drafted him for his talents...and they don't maximize it.


What are his talents? 

It's not:

Jump Shooting
Defense
Free Throws
Fast Breaks
Decision Making
Reading Defenses


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## BamaBull (Jun 24, 2002)

*I agree Basghetti....*



> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> Lizzy what is wrong with him saying this is more games than he has lost in his life. For heavens sake its true! Now i admit he should have known that we were going to lose at least 45 games this year. But that is something you dont prepare for. With all the winning he has had at HS and college level it is just beginning to wear on him a little. Winning cures all that is wrong and hopefully this team can have a decent finish to the year so they can have a little confidence going into next year.


There are FAR too many players on this team who have played more games in the NBA than Jay Williams who deserve the IRE of all Bulls fans. Geez, give the guy a break! Less than a full season and he is a slug? Typical.  Now Jalen, MR Ball Hog Rose has been in the league for 9 years or so. Where's his fundamentals??? He throws up more bricks and temper tantrums over "ghost fouls" committed against him and CONTINUES to shoves his OFF hand into the chest of defenders while dribbling on offense. Then there is Crawford who has been in the league for how long??? THREE years minus injury and sulking time? His shot selection is horrible and he also continues to "Back into" the defense while bringing the ball up the court. Again, HOW can he see the whole court and where all his players are IF he has his back to them? Answer? HE CAN'T!! I watched him do again against the magic. SO, my stance is, get off the rooks and get on the vets?:upset:


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Oh Lizzy and i suppose you think JC is better than Williams in every one of those categories right? Please! I know we all are frustrated about Williams but outside of free throw and jump shooting Williams has him beat and everyone knows that!(or should)


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: A Solution*



> Originally posted by <b>Jammer</b>!
> *Trade Jay Williams,straight up, for Mike Dunleavy, Jr. and trade Marcus Fizer, Eddie Robinson and filler for Eddie Jones.*
> 
> _End of problem._


Who wants Eddie Jones?!?!?!?! Every team he played for were playoff teams, but never championship contenders! The Lakers were flooded with talent (Van Exel, Kobe, Campbell, Fox) when Jones was there, yet they didn't do well. His one season with Charlotte, and they sucked, and, now, his tenure in Miami. How are they faring? At least Rose made it to the Finals. 

I supported Williams many times, but he has quite the nerve to say something like that to the media first when he hasn't done jack to really deserve to! It seems that Krause may have to trade up for James, but the question is whether it's Williams or Crawford and others.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> Oh Lizzy and i suppose you think JC is better than Williams in every one of those categories right? Please! I know we all are frustrated about Williams but outside of free throw and jump shooting Williams has him beat and everyone knows that!(or should)


I would have had no problems with Jay Williams if he didn't routinely take his issues to the press as he has done since early in the season. I have been patient with the other young guys. My reason for ripping on Williams is because he is blaming everything but himself. Not to mention drawing attention to the orginization that already has a bad reputation. 

If he shut his mouth I wouldn't care that he's been off this season.


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

*So we want a pg*



> Originally posted by <b>Showtyme</b>!
> He either needs to be given control, or submit.
> 
> Look at it this way. What if Jay just starts playing better, and getting good stats, and etc.? Then it's like he still loses, because he has to adjust his game to play within the system, making him more effective in the short term but less effective overall.
> ...


who is supposed to lead us to the promoised land one day to be afraid of competition. God forbid we actually make it to the playoffs next year and we are in a close game. Will Jay cry to the media that other team played defense harder than he is used to and that is why we lost.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DMD</b>!
> Guys, let's think here for a moment...everybody in this thread has made some great points, but here is what I think it all comes down to:
> 
> Jerry Krause is not going to trade Jay Williams.
> ...


Just as I suspected, KC Johnson's article confirms what was thinking yesterday. Krause defends JWill:

"Jay is going to be an outstanding player in this league," Krause said. "It's just a matter of him understanding the game and having faith. All he's doing with those comments is showing he's a winner. He's just not expressing himself very well, and we'll have a conversation about that.

"But there hasn't been one thought about trading him."


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I think pretty Krause and Cartwright still don't get it. 

Krause in particular has no concept of how chemistry, leadership and loyalty work, and it's in evidence here. He seems to think that those are some sort of inorganic qualities you just add at the drop of a hat. JWill is a leader. Stick him in the lineup and everything will be fine. He will lead.

Wrong.

First, how do you set a good tone buy GIVING a job to JWill (not once, but twice) and then making Tyson, Eddy, Marcus, Jamal, and ERob claw and scrape and show improvement. 

Even if its not the intent, they should have known they were setting JWill up to look like Teacher's Pet.

Treat him differently from everyone else, and then to top it off, tell him to "be a leader".

Note that this isn't intended to excuse JWill. True leadership in his situation would have been to say he disagreed with the decision when he was handed the starting job back after the all-star break. He could have and should have said "Look, the team played better with Jamal starting, and just like everyone else, I should show I'm clearly better before I get my job back.

It's been handled poorly by the organization and poorly by JWill both.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Mike, Totally agree that mgmt screwed this one up. I differ on the JWill issue, however.



> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> Note that this isn't intended to excuse JWill. True leadership in his situation would have been to say he disagreed with the decision when he was handed the starting job back after the all-star break. He could have and should have said "Look, the team played better with Jamal starting, and just like everyone else, I should show I'm clearly better before I get my job back.


Every young player believes that they could play better if they got more time and could play through their mistakes. With Jay, he has the whole league (Payton, Starbury, all of ESPN) saying that the Bulls offense is holding him back for most of the year. It would be shocking to me if the kid had asked for less responsibility. I don't see how he could be held to this standard. 

Of course, holding him accountable for all of the whining is complete different.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

LOL, I agree it's a very difficult standard, but I think adhereing to very difficult standards, and being able to see the truth of a situation despite your ego are also key leadership qualities.

I mean yeah, most every young player (and old one) thinks they're the best guy around and they just need a chance to show what they can do.

But common sense tells us that's mostly ego talking. Most guys that don't play a lot don't play a lot because they aren't as good as the guys that do play a lot. 

Most importantly, I don't expect most players, and especially most young players to BE leaders. For just the reasons you pointed out.

But that doesn't change the fact that JWill didn't act as a leader should. He was definitely placed in an unfair position, and in retrospect it was clearly one he wasn't ready for. But to me that still doesn't totally excuse JWill. Leadership, after all, is about doing your best in difficult, even unfair circumstances.

I'm not foreclosing the idea that JWill can ever fit in here, and I'm not saying he can never become a leader. I'm just saying that he was put into a crappy situation that called for real leadership, and he didn't provide it... which shouldn't be surprising, given that he's a young player :|


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

*Mariotti on Williams*

http://www.suntimes.com/output/mariotti/cst-spt-jay051.html


*What shocks me about Jay Williams is his soul. It's made of marshmallow, much too soft right now for NBA stardom and too sensitive to survive in the big city. There are times to be critical of raw deals in life, including the bad karma of winding up with a Jerry Krause operation, but before you do so, your own house should be in order.

Here we thought Williams was a mature, polished, mentally tough, well-adjusted leader who would assume rule over this team for the next 10 years. Instead, he has established a new record for most trade requests in the first four months of a rookie season (two). When the going gets tough, Jaybird wants to fly away, which assuredly is not the lesson Mike Krzyzewski teaches his players. Who ever thought Coach K, who grew up about two miles from the United Center near the corner of Damen and Augusta, would send a kid to his hometown who wanted to whine and quit so often?

He would have more credibility if he wasn't shooting 37 percent from the field--remember, a good chunk of his points come on driving layups--and 60 percent from the free-throw line. Then, we might point to his comments as heroic instead of sour grapes. Cartwright's inability to mold a hodgepodge of young talent has been apparent for months, with every brief, positive spurt followed by a crash. But Williams isn't helping the mess by questioning Cartwright's acumen when he has failed his own litmus test. When he suggests a rift between the coach and his players, how much of it is a stretch based on Williams' personal frustrations? Captain Jalen Rose, a straight shooter who is growing increasingly disgusted with his Bulls experience, blew a gasket when informed of Jay's jibber-jabber.

Be a pro, get it done. Williams isn't fulfilling either obligation. Regardless of the offense the Bulls would be running--and Krause and Cartwright say the triangle is diminishing in use--you gather the kid still would be struggling. The first signs he might be a head case came last season at Duke, where he got stuck with a reputation of missing critical free throws. It seemed a harmless blip on the screen, even when he lost a free-throw shooting contest with Katie Couric on draft eve. But on opening night in Boston, Williams missed several free throws, including a couple of big ones that would have sabotaged a win if Trenton Hassell didn't save the cause with rare big baskets. Except for one where-did-that-come-from breakout game against New Jersey, in the season's second week, Williams has looked sluggish and out of his element and clearly lacks the driving explosiveness that made him the two-time College Player of the Year.

In his attempt to show he's brilliant and we're dumb, Krause underestimated the immaturity quotient when he created the Baby Bulls. Hard as it is to watch so much wretched basketball, it's even more unfair that fans have to suffer the pouty egos of players in their early 20s. How curious to hear Tyson Chandler say he wants to be the next team leader when he can't even make it to practice on time.

But for all his psychoanalysis, Williams is part of the problem, not the solution. Not that Krause would consider admitting a mistake, but say he did put Jay on the trade market. Know what would happen? Nothing. He's untradeable right now.

Too soft.*


That is not the whole article. Just some of the paragraphs.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

*Modrowski on Williams.*

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sports/cst-spt-bull05.html


*An opposing player was preparing to shoot a free throw recently when Bulls rookie Jay Williams stood in the lane and waved his arms to huddle his teammates.

Nobody budged.

And there are the holes in Williams' game, and the apparent collapse of his confidence.

Williams didn't mind. In Chicago, which chose him at No. 2, he saw a venue he correctly assumed would offer stronger marketing opportunities.

Williams said all the right things, including one phrase that has come back to haunt him. During pre-draft interviews with other lottery picks in Chicago, he dismissed the possibility the Bulls would suffer a fifth consecutive losing season.

"Losing isn't in my vocabulary,'' he said.

Williams talked about the team and city moving past memories of the dynasty and looking to the future. He even took Jordan's United Center locker, which had remained empty since the championship team disbanded in 1998. Several of Williams' teammates thought it was a disrespectful move by a brash rookie.

Instead of Williams acclimating himself to his team, it seemed the team was being force-fed a rookie. That didn't go over very well with some of the veterans, especially with Crawford, who lost his starting spot to Williams despite posting slightly better numbers in the preseason. Crawford and Williams have clashed all season, with neither feeling very comfortable with the other around.

Williams represented more than a new player; he was being marketed by the Bulls as a savior. His larger-than-life image was plastered all over the city on billboards. He was the golden child, the player coming off a stint on the U.S. national team in the World Championships. He was shooting commercials and signing endorsement contracts.

Williams' physical and mental health were in such a shambles that after he tweaked the ankle on Jan. 18 in Miami, he was put on the injured list, where he missed the minimum five games while nursing his ankle and confidence back to health.

Krause considered trading Crawford before the Feb. 20 deadline to make things easier on everyone, but the market was thin for a guard who couldn't start on a bad team. So Williams and Crawford continue to compete for minutes.

Williams also seems to be battling Rose for control of the offense. While Rose likes to dominate the ball in a half-court set, Williams prefers to push it up and attack the basket. It makes for a natural rivalry.

The Rose-Williams rift seemed to grow wider Monday when Rose described Williams' remarks about a chasm between players and Cartwright as "stupid'' and said each player should just "be a pro and get it done.'' There was little doubt to whom Rose was referring. Williams is shooting just 37 percent from the field and 61 percent from the line.

"It's frustrating we don't have X amount of guys willing to come and bring their effort every night,'' Rose added. "We have to find a level of consistency you can rely on, and not the peaks and valleys that have been plaguing us for the majority of the season.''*

This is not the whole article.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: I agree Basghetti....*



> Originally posted by <b>BamaBull</b>!
> 
> 
> There are FAR too many players on this team who have played more games in the NBA than Jay Williams who deserve the IRE of all Bulls fans. Geez, give the guy a break! Less than a full season and he is a slug? Typical.  Now Jalen, MR Ball Hog Rose has been in the league for 9 years or so. Where's his fundamentals??? He throws up more bricks and temper tantrums over "ghost fouls" committed against him and CONTINUES to shoves his OFF hand into the chest of defenders while dribbling on offense. Then there is Crawford who has been in the league for how long??? THREE years minus injury and sulking time? His shot selection is horrible and he also continues to "Back into" the defense while bringing the ball up the court. Again, HOW can he see the whole court and where all his players are IF he has his back to them? Answer? HE CAN'T!! I watched him do again against the magic. SO, my stance is, get off the rooks and get on the vets?:upset:


HAHA... your so biased on this issue its funny. 

so now that Jay is getting rightfully trashed, its time to deflect the blame to the rest of the guys? PLEASE. you kill me.

Jalen and Jamal arent crying like schoolgirls after going scoreless, the other guys dont blame outside influences for their own issues. JAY, is blaming everyone from Bill Cartwright to Saddam Hussein, Please take off your obviously blue colored glasses and stop blaming others for Jay's problems and let him stand up for his own issues.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DMD</b>!
> 
> 
> Just as I suspected, KC Johnson's article confirms what was thinking yesterday. Krause defends JWill:
> ...


do you expect krause to say that they've been actively shopping williams? he just said what any GM in their right mind would say.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> I think pretty Krause and Cartwright still don't get it.
> 
> Krause in particular has no concept of how chemistry, leadership and loyalty work, and it's in evidence here. He seems to think that those are some sort of inorganic qualities you just add at the drop of a hat. JWill is a leader. Stick him in the lineup and everything will be fine. He will lead.
> ...



You hit a point that many here have been trying to say for a long time now but never found the words to say without offending Jay's posse'. I Agreed 100%


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Modrowski on Williams.*



> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> http://www.suntimes.com/output/sports/cst-spt-bull05.html
> 
> 
> ...


thanks for the articles trueblue, they might deserve threads of their own IMO though because this thread is too long IMHO.


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