# BIG Baby got some BIG Problems



## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

If being a good rebounder and passer is enough, former LSU star Glen "Big Baby" Davis might hustle his way onto the Boston Celtics' opening day roster next fall.

The scoring ability he showed for the Tigers has yet to manifest itself in his early days as a pro, however.

In his first two games in the NBA's summer league in Las Vegas, Davis pulled down 15 rebounds. Celtics coach Doc Rivers said Davis also is seeing the floor and passing well.

As for Davis' shooting during that same span? He was 2-for-15 from the field.

"I think he goes too fast offensively sometimes, but I don't think that's anything we didn't expect," Rivers said. "We want him to keep working to get better."

At LSU, the 6-foot-9 Davis became the only Tigers player other than Shaquille O'Neal with career totals surpassing 1,500 points, 900 rebounds and 100 blocks. Davis was an AP second team All-America selection during the 2005-06 season, when LSU went to the Final Four.

He averaged 17.7 points and 10.4 rebounds last season, missing several games late in the year because of a strained quadriceps.

He then decided to skip his senior season in Baton Rouge, hoping to be selected in the first round of the NBA Draft last month.

Those hopes were dashed when he wasn't picked until early in the second round, 35th overall, by Seattle, which then traded his rights to Boston.

Being a second-round pick means Davis will not receive a guaranteed contract unless he earns a spot on a regular season roster. 


he aint gon make the roster


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

It seems they like Brandon Wallace more. Davis has weird package of size and skill. He prefers facing the basket, but as a 6'9, 290lb dude that can't jump, there's an inherent problem. 

I'm sure the Euroleague elite are lining up to sign him; he could be an absolute superstar overseas.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Summer league.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

he just needs to adjust to the speed of the game.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

I don't know who Boston played in their other summer league game, but the first one was against arguably one of the toughest interiors he will face. Oden and Aldridge are both extremely good defenders.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

anyone want to put money on the fact that he will be on the roster for the regular season...the c's didnt waste a high second round pick to cut the guy after the summer...hes got skills, he'll be on the team


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

He's not going to make the team based on summer league? Where Leon Powe appears to be a superior prospect to Yi Jianlian and Greg Oden?

Lets calm down and think about things for a moment.


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## Ainge for 3 (May 23, 2007)

Danny Ainge said that they want him to perform well in his role -- altering shots, rebounding, and passing. He said they didn't expect him to be some amazing scorer. With Big Al, Pierce, and Allen, there are only so many shots to go around. Ainge and Rivers want the team to focus on making those shots from the big 3 to be quality shots, and Big Baby can help with that.


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

Ainge for 3 said:


> Danny Ainge said that they want him to perform well in his role -- altering shots, rebounding, and passing. He said they didn't expect him to be some amazing scorer. With Big Al, Pierce, and Allen, there are only so many shots to go around. Ainge and Rivers want the team to focus on making those shots from the big 3 to be quality shots, and Big Baby can help with that.


Exactly, and he has performed well with passing and rebounding. Any reason to worry? No. He will make the team.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Lets consider some other summer league stats.

Marcus Banks has 42 points in 28 minutes. Jelani McCoy is the current leader in rebounds. Craig Smith has as many blocks as Greg Oden and LaMarcus Aldridge.

Summer league is a nice thing to get young pros experience against a higher quality of oppononent. But its not a make or break thing. Davis will be able to score in the league and score on the block.

Also, he's 6-9. Its not like he's 6-4. He's a very large individual and he will be able to find space to get off shots and score.

And Kevin Durant might be scoring, but he's shooting 25% from the floor and has more turnovers than rebounds, assists, steals and blocks combined.

I think he won't make the Sonics roster either.


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## cgcatsfan (Jun 10, 2005)

Seriously, it's fun to watch/hear about summer league games, but putting too much stock into it doesn't make sense. 

Davis will develop, as several others mentioned, we didn't go after him for his scoring, we need to up our inside presence. He's blocking and rebounding okay for now. As he adjusts, he'll get his scoring under control.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

he'll be on the team only because we have no size down low right now


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## pokpok (Jul 26, 2005)

****...i like big baby more than perkins.

Either curse, or don't, don't do it halfway.

aqua

P.S. You do not like Big Baby more than Perkins


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Well pick your poison...
Glen Davis losing 50 lbs and still being the size of a blue whale
OR
Perkins throwing 300mph shots off the backboard whenever he shoots


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

He's lost weight, but he may have lost some of his interior effectiveness.


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## BostonBasketball (Jan 10, 2005)

I said it on draft night and I'll say it again, Davis is a solid player, not a good fit for this team though. I thought McRoberts was a better pick to give us some height and  more defense on the inside.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Davis has shed pounds to get down to 295. Its not as though he looks like Gerald Green out there.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

BostonBasketball said:


> I said it on draft night and I'll say it again, Davis is a solid player, not a good fit for this team though. I thought McRoberts was a better pick to give us some height and more defense on the inside.


No offense, but _McRoberts_ and _defense_ don't belong in the same sentence, unless you're talking about the glaring weakness in his game.


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

If we were going by fit we would've picked Gasol or Gray or some other center who plays mediocre defense.


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## BostonBasketball (Jan 10, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> No offense, but _McRoberts_ and _defense_ don't belong in the same sentence, unless you're talking about the glaring weakness in his game.


At least theres the possibility that McRoberts will block some shots.

And don't get me wrong I didn't particularly like McRoberts game, but I thought he was a better fit.


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## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

Watching the last summer league game, it looks like Davis can block shots. He had 6 official blocks plus one or two that weren't counted. He also has the ability to score. I was very impressed with his effort. If the Celtics don't sign him, some other team will be very happy.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Causeway said:


> Summer league.


That's a pretty ignorant post right there, just because it's Summer League doesn't mean it's not basketball. There were questions in his game coming INTO the league, and his play so far in Summer League is only showing that those weaknesses did in fact translate. He might make the roster this season, but he won't be in the NBA for long.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

GregOden said:


> That's a pretty ignorant post right there, just because it's Summer League doesn't mean it's not basketball. There were questions in his game coming INTO the league, and his play so far in Summer League is only showing that those weaknesses did in fact translate. He might make the roster this season, but he won't be in the NBA for long.


Actually your post is what is ignorant. All I wrote was "Summer League". Where did I say it was not basketball? Also, it is ignorant to assume that what you see in summer league is what you will see in the regular season. Every year there are players who do very well in SL who do nothing in real time. That is simply fact. So you take SL with a grain of salt. Davis DOMINATED last night by the way. Do you think he'll now doinate the NBA? I don't. But he will certainly "make the roster" and I think have a good NBA career.

Should we assume that Greg Oden is a bust and always will be in foul trouble? Guess he won't be in the NBA for long. Time to change your name to OJ Mayo.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

GregOden said:


> That's a pretty ignorant post right there, just because it's Summer League doesn't mean it's not basketball. There were questions in his game coming INTO the league, and his play so far in Summer League is only showing that those weaknesses did in fact translate. He might make the roster this season, but he won't be in the NBA for long.


The fact is that the Celtics' VSL team ran an offensive style unsuited to Davis. Davis is a half court player who thrives running pick & rolls and pick & pops, and the Celtics did none of that with Rondo on the floor. With a roster full of half court players, odds are that the Celtics spend more time taking advantage of Davis' strengths than playing to his weaknesses once the preseason starts.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Causeway said:


> Actually your post is what is ignorant. All I wrote was "Summer League". Where did I say it was not basketball? Also, it is ignorant to assume that what you see in summer league is what you will see in the regular season. Every year there are players who do very well in SL who do nothing in real time. That is simply fact. So you take SL with a grain of salt. Davis DOMINATED last night by the way. Do you think he'll now doinate the NBA? I don't. But he will certainly "make the roster" and I think have a good NBA career.
> 
> Should we assume that Greg Oden is a bust and always will be in foul trouble? Guess he won't be in the NBA for long. Time to change your name to OJ Mayo.


If you actually took the time to READ my post, I said there were questions on him coming INTO the league AKA from college not Summer League. And so far what we've gotten from him in Summer League are the same questions. There's a reason he was drafted as late as he was. I said he'd probably make the roster, did I not? 

I love how you get so carried away with your sarcasm that you miss the entire point of my post.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

GregOden said:


> If you actually took the time to READ my post, I said there were questions on him coming INTO the league AKA from college not Summer League. And so far what we've gotten from him in Summer League are the same questions. There's a reason he was drafted as late as he was. I said he'd probably make the roster, did I not?
> 
> I love how you get so carried away with your sarcasm that you miss the entire point of my post.


The entire post of mine that you first responded to was:



> Summer league.


your response, full of assumptions, was:



> That's a pretty ignorant post right there, just because it's Summer League doesn't mean it's not basketball. There were questions in his game coming INTO the league, and his play so far in Summer League is only showing that those weaknesses did in fact translate. He might make the roster this season, but he won't be in the NBA for long.


When you start off saying a post of "Summer League" is ignorant, you lose whatever credibility you may not of had. 

However I was not being sarcastic. Based on your theory, summer league counts a lot. And for the record Oden had questions about foul trouble coming INTO the league. So again, based on your theory, Oden is in trouble. But Oden will make the Portland roster, I will give you that.

And you keep ignoring Davis' last game where he dominated. So when you say "so far what we've gotten from him in Summer League are the same questions", you are again wrong. What we've gotten is a mixed bag. Neither of which holds too much water. Again, it's summer league. Summer league. I'll reserve my judgement for the big league.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Causeway said:


> The entire post of mine that you first responded to was:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love how you assume I have thos crazy theory about anything. Big Baby was in college for 3 years, it's not like he was a frosh and go type kid. He wasn't from overseas, we got to watch him play for 3 years in college. The problems I'm supposedly gathering just from Summer League aren't actually just from a couple games of Summer League. It's from years of watching him play ball at LSU. So when I see in Summer League, the same thing I saw in college I wouldn't call that a random assumption. I'd call it a personal opinion. That's what my crystal ball tells me about the kid, you don't have to take my opinion as fact...I wouldn't expect anybody to. But this is a basketballforum, is it not? Is this not the place to discuss our opinions on basketball? If it isn't I apologize for my mistake.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Listen - you called me "ignorant" for writing "Summer League". Now you are playing the card of "Is this not the place to discuss our opinions on basketball? If it isn't I apologize for my mistake." The hypocrisy is too funny.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

stop trying C its not worth it lol


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

Causeway said:


> Listen - you called me "ignorant" for writing "Summer League". Now you are playing the card of "Is this not the place to discuss our opinions on basketball? If it isn't I apologize for my mistake." The hypocrisy is too funny.


What hypocrisy?


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

the hypocrisy that oden is claiming this is a board to discuss opinions and when causeway posted his opinion that its summer league and it doesnt really matter oden called him "ignorant"...you cant claim this is a place to post opinions and bash other ppl for their opinions


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

So Glen Davis is short.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

does anyone have his exact measurements like from the pre draft camp or something cuz i could swear that i head he was a legit 6'9 with shoes, which wouldnt be that bad


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

I believe it's 6'9.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> the hypocrisy that oden is claiming this is a board to discuss opinions and when causeway posted his opinion that its summer league and it doesnt really matter oden called him "ignorant"...you cant claim this is a place to post opinions and bash other ppl for their opinions


Sure you can. Opinions _can_ be ignorant.



#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> does anyone have his exact measurements like from the pre draft camp or something cuz i could swear that i head he was a legit 6'9 with shoes, which wouldnt be that bad


In private workouts he measured in at 6'7-3/4" in his bare feet. Or half an inch shorter than Al.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> In private workouts he measured in at 6'7-3/4" in his bare feet. Or half an inch shorter than Al.



so with shoes add an inch lets say...i dont think thats a bad height at all for a PF...i dont think anyone expects to have a 6'11 pf...his gerth might make him seem shorter than he really is but i have no worries about his height...i think even the announcers in the summer league think hes shorter than he really is while trying to say ppl like barkley didnt need great size to dominate...barkley was like 6'5 at best


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

6'9 is not a bad height at all. He's a huge guy, extremely wide so that itself creates a lot of space for him which would make up for the so called lack of height. Boozer was deemed undersized by many and he blossomed into a star player last season. Antonio Davis was a 6'9 center and was one of the toughest players in his prime. Ben Wallace is another example of a big man who is generously listed at 6'9 while being closer to 6'8, but that doesn't stop him from being one of the league's best rebounder/shot blocker/defender.

Baby's not even expected to do much other than rebounding, and play hard. He'll be fine.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> so with shoes add an inch lets say...i dont think thats a bad height at all for a PF...i dont think anyone expects to have a 6'11 pf...his gerth might make him seem shorter than he really is but i have no worries about his height...i think even the announcers in the summer league think hes shorter than he really is while trying to say ppl like barkley didnt need great size to dominate...barkley was like 6'5 at best


Like most heavy people, Barkley gets shorter with age. When you have that beer & bacon belly your spine curves (making you shorter). During his playing days he was probably closer to 6'6". He was, as a young man, also explosively athletic. People tend to forget that the Round Mound of Rebound could really get off the floor in a way that the latter day "He's too short, huh? Somone tell Charles Barkley that!"s (sic) have never been. Larry Johnson was a lesser version of Charles, and just about as athletic. So, yes, 6'5" guys can survive, if they're so quick/fast that the bigger guys can't keep up and get so high off the ground that the bigger guys can't swat their shots at will. All this being my way of saying that neither Gomes nor Powe are the next Barkley.

As for Davis, I think he'll be fine with a couple of caveats. First, they have to impress upon him the importance of getting his *** into the gym and working on his strength. In college he got by on fat (using his bulk to protect his shot). That won't work in the pros, he needs power to add to his finesse. They also need to get him working with Ray on advancing his defense. He isn't a shot alterer in the way that Oden is, the blocks he gets are timing blocks. He's very good at recognising when his man will be exposing the ball and being at full extension before his man is ready to get his shot off. He won't alter a lot of shots, but he might still become an effective defender. Ray can help him with anticipation, teaching him how to read a play so that he positions himself properly to defend the rim, etc.. If he's willing to bust ***, he can be a good NBA player, and perhaps even an effective starter. But, he needs to start proving it in the gym and in the weight room.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> the hypocrisy that oden is claiming this is a board to discuss opinions and when causeway posted his opinion that its summer league and it doesnt really matter oden called him "ignorant"...you cant claim this is a place to post opinions and bash other ppl for their opinions


Not seeing the problem, I WAS discussing his opinion by calling it an ignorant one.


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> the hypocrisy that oden is claiming this is a board to discuss opinions and when causeway posted his opinion that its summer league and it doesnt really matter oden called him "ignorant"...you cant claim this is a place to post opinions and bash other ppl for their opinions


He stated that on this board who have the right to exercise your opinions. He may have called him ignorant on the matter, but that right there is an opinion. It's called criticism, and he simply chipped him his two cents on what Causeway thought. 

Please don't come into this forum to insult people. Thanks aqua.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

I'd like to thank you all for reapproaching the topic.



ehmunro said:


> As for Davis, I think he'll be fine with a couple of caveats. First, they have to impress upon him the importance of getting his *** into the gym and working on his strength. In college he got by on fat (using his bulk to protect his shot). That won't work in the pros, he needs power to add to his finesse. They also need to get him working with Ray on advancing his defense. He isn't a shot alterer in the way that Oden is, the blocks he gets are timing blocks. *He's very good at recognising when his man will be exposing the ball and being at full extension before his man is ready to get his shot off.* He won't alter a lot of shots, but he might still become an effective defender. Ray can help him with anticipation, teaching him how to read a play so that he positions himself properly to defend the rim, etc.. If he's willing to bust ***, he can be a good NBA player, and perhaps even an effective starter. But, he needs to start proving it in the gym and in the weight room.


That sounds like someone who will alter shots. He isn't someone like Oden who will make you think twice about coming at him. But from what you're saying, it seems like he will make his man shoot at an angle that he didn't originally plan for.

I think a more appropriate comparison for Davis is Zach Randolph (minus legal issues we hope). Davis doesn't have Barkley's superior athleticism or freakishly long arms. He's just a big guy who knows how to use his weight to get his shot off. He definately needs to replace fat with muscle if he wants to achieve in the NBA. Randolph has changed some physically since being in the league and I think Davis can too. Clearly, we have the trainers in place to do it if you look at Perkins. Now if Davis could pick up Perks' work ethic to go with the skills he already has, that would be something.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

agoo101284 said:


> That sounds like someone who will alter shots. He isn't someone like Oden who will make you think twice about coming at him. But from what you're saying, it seems like he will make his man shoot at an angle that he didn't originally plan for.


What I was getting at is that guards aren't going to be making themselves aware of where Davis is on the floor, which is both a good thing and bad (more on that in a moment). Oden and Sean Williams should be what Duncan is, the sort of defensive presence that every opponent on the floor has to be aware of. Even if you're a shooting guard you have to know where guys like that are, and will think twice about driving the rim if they're in a position to defend.

Davis can really only alter his guy's shots. I think his instincts are good, and that Ray can make him into a competent lane defender, so that the other four opponents on the floor won't take special notice of him. This is one of Jefferson's problems, because of the way he runs around looking for shots to block, opponents look out for him, and use simple swings to open up clear lanes to the rim (by luring Jefferson out of position). Because Davis isn't trying to pad his block numbers, I don't think he'll be as easy to fool.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

agoo101284 said:


> I'd like to thank you all for reapproaching the topic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I doubt Davis will ever get close to any of Randlophs numbers, not nearly as gifted offensively in the post as Randolph is.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

GregOden said:


> Not seeing the problem, I WAS discussing his opinion by calling it an ignorant one.


Actually that is the point. I said your opinion - that the play of Davis in Summer League is indicative of how he will play in the NBA - was ignorant. You then complained that you had a right to your opinion. 

Bottom line is that anyone who actually follows basketball takes SL with a grain of salt. We'll see what happens with Davis, but I think he'll figure out a way to be a good NBA player.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Causeway said:


> Actually that is the point. I said your opinion - that the play of Davis in Summer League is indicative of how he will play in the NBA - was ignorant. You then complained that you had a right to your opinion.
> 
> Bottom line is that anyone who actually follows basketball takes SL with a grain of salt. We'll see what happens with Davis, but I think he'll figure out a way to be a good NBA player.


But it's NOT dude, please pay attention. It's not like we've never seen Big Baby play outside of Summer ball. He was in college for what, three years? Is that insignificant? I had questions about his game in college, and I'm seeing the same questions in Summer League. Did I say SUMMER LEAGUE = FACT. No, but when I see the same EXACT thing in summer league that I saw in college, I don't have a problem taking that as fact for my personal knowledge. We all perceive things differently, and you can't take your head out of your *** for one second to realize I've watched the kid play more than just a couple SL games and my entire predictions on him AREN'T just based on that.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Again, Glenn Davis is short.

Can we shut up with the semantics and start talking about the topic?


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

GregOden said:


> But it's NOT dude, please pay attention. It's not like we've never seen Big Baby play outside of Summer ball. He was in college for what, three years? Is that insignificant? I had questions about his game in college, and I'm seeing the same questions in Summer League. Did I say SUMMER LEAGUE = FACT. No, but when I see the same EXACT thing in summer league that I saw in college, I don't have a problem taking that as fact for my personal knowledge. We all perceive things differently, and you can't take your head out of your *** for one second to realize I've watched the kid play more than just a couple SL games and my entire predictions on him AREN'T just based on that.


I'm going to have to go with G.O.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

GregOden said:


> But it's NOT dude, please pay attention. It's not like we've never seen Big Baby play outside of Summer ball. He was in college for what, three years? Is that insignificant? I had questions about his game in college, and I'm seeing the same questions in Summer League. Did I say SUMMER LEAGUE = FACT. No, but when I see the same EXACT thing in summer league that I saw in college, I don't have a problem taking that as fact for my personal knowledge. We all perceive things differently, and you can't take your head out of your *** for one second to realize I've watched the kid play more than just a couple SL games and my entire predictions on him AREN'T just based on that.


It's still all opinion, no matter how many times you claim to have watched Davis play. Until we see what he can actually do in the NBA, it's opinion. Some predraft polls had Davis at #14. That was an opinion. Oden had foul trouble in college. Oden also had foul trouble in SL. He will have foul trouble in the NBA. Opinion. You think my opinion was ignorant. I think your opinions are ignorant. Opinion. Except when I did the same as you and called you ignorant, you cried that you were allowed to state your opinion. Pay attention.

Yes Davis is short for the position he plays. So are many other players, Wallace for example. Davis is wide enough and smart enough to fill up space, grab rebounds, and help Big Al. I think he will be an asset to the Celtics.


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

Causeway said:


> It's still all opinion, no matter how many times you claim to have watched Davis play. Until we see what he can actually do in the NBA, it's opinion. Some predraft polls had Davis at #14. That was an opinion. Oden had foul trouble in college. Oden also had foul trouble in SL. He will have foul trouble in the NBA. Opinion. You think my opinion was ignorant. I think your opinions are ignorant. Opinion. Except when I did the same as you and called you ignorant, you cried that you were allowed to state your opinion. Pay attention.
> 
> Yes Davis is short for the position he plays. So are many other players, Wallace for example. Davis is wide enough and smart enough to fill up space, grab rebounds, and help Big Al. I think he will be an asset to the Celtics.


You completely ignore of his point. The same flaws Davis showed in college, he showed in summer league. He might improve upon these flaws later in his career, but not now, since obviously it won't be a smooth transition. Anyone should be able to see this, but your ignorance ain't helping.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Quite Frankly said:


> You completely ignore of his point. The same flaws Davis showed in college, he showed in summer league. He might improve upon these flaws later in his career, but not now, since obviously it won't be a smooth transition. Anyone should be able to see this, but your ignorance ain't helping.


Wrong. I hear his point, and I do not agree. That is my prerogative. Isn't this what he is crying about, being able to state your opinion? Do you have anything to add to this thread other than defending your boy GregOden? Do you have any opinions of your own?


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## cgcatsfan (Jun 10, 2005)

Glen's a little raw, but he'll develop. Very few rookies have ultra smooth transitions. 
The fact is that the big man averaged 12 PPG and 9.8 rebounds. The 1.8 blocks is fine with me too. 
I am more concerned about body control and fouling than anything. He needs to develop some finesse. 
I realize that summer league does not pit him against some of the "bigs" he'll need to defend against, but he's not timid on defense, which to me would be of MUCH greater concern. 
I'm also concerned about who on the Celts can teach him finesse on defense, since the coaching staff hasn't been great at that and we're looking to deal Theo.


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

Causeway said:


> Wrong. I hear his point, and I do not agree. That is my prerogative. Isn't this what he is crying about, being able to state your opinion? Do you have anything to add to this thread other than defending your boy GregOden? Do you have any opinions of your own?


Alright, first of all I ain't sticking up for him, I am saying he is right and you are not. Hear that point.

Glen Davis was flawed in college, he was flawed in summer league, and he will be flawed in the NBA. Hear that point.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Causeway said:


> It's still all opinion, no matter how many times you claim to have watched Davis play. Until we see what he can actually do in the NBA, it's opinion. Some predraft polls had Davis at #14. That was an opinion. Oden had foul trouble in college. Oden also had foul trouble in SL. He will have foul trouble in the NBA. Opinion. You think my opinion was ignorant. I think your opinions are ignorant. Opinion. Except when I did the same as you and called you ignorant, you cried that you were allowed to state your opinion. Pay attention.
> 
> Yes Davis is short for the position he plays. So are many other players, Wallace for example. Davis is wide enough and smart enough to fill up space, grab rebounds, and help Big Al. I think he will be an asset to the Celtics.


I'm not going to argue with you anymore man, I've gotten PM's warning me about you after your first reply. I've come to the conclusion that you don't want to hear what I'm saying, so I'm not wasting my time and keep getting this thread off topic.

Davis won't be a good pro, and I doubt stays in the NBA very long. That's my opinion.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Quite Frankly said:


> Glen Davis was flawed in college, he was flawed in summer league, and he will be flawed in the NBA. Hear that point.




so then what ur saying is greg oden had foul trouble in college, foul trouble in the sl and therefore he will have foul trouble in the nba and never be able to stay on the floor for more than 15 min...right??


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

The communication breakdown in this thread is appalling.

Person A says because of Davis' history and the reinforcing of that by his play in summer league, he won't be a good pro. Opinion noted.

Person B says that it's only summer league, and whilst these problems still existed, let's let him play some NBA games before we drop the gavel on him. Opinion noted.

WTF is the problem!?!

And this is too funny:



> The same flaws Davis showed in college, he showed in summer league. He might improve upon these flaws later in his career, but not now, since obviously it won't be a smooth transition. Anyone should be able to see this, but your ignorance ain't helping.
> __________________


You do realize that by swapping the name "Oden" for "Davis," it makes just as much - if not more - sense, right? If you're affirming that college + SL have the bearing on someone's career, then you have to use that rationale to say that Oden will be a bust, too. Otherwise you'd be a hypocrite stretching a theory that you don't rightly believe in to your own ends. All the while remembering the same strengths Kedrick Brown had in college, he had in summer league, too. But wait - where is he!?!

That's crazy!

Not taking sides, but this is a painstakingly obvious point that has been repeatedly ignored throughout the thread to such a extent that I had to jump in.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

^ exactly P-Dub.


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> so then what ur saying is greg oden had foul trouble in college, foul trouble in the sl and therefore he will have foul trouble in the nba and never be able to stay on the floor for more than 15 min...right??


Obviously you didn't hear my point either. Did I even say anything about Oden? No, but now I will.

He will have foul trouble in the NBA, he probably will eventually improve upon it in his career. So I guess what you are saying that I supposedly implied is a right idea, but he will be on the floor for more than 15 minutes. Lots of big men will get into foul trouble. Amare, Shaq, and Jermaine O'Neal all had their fair share of fouls last year, so will Oden.


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> The communication breakdown in this thread is appalling.
> 
> Person A says because of Davis' history and the reinforcing of that by his play in summer league, he won't be a good pro. Opinion noted.
> 
> ...


Obviously you don't get it as well. We all know Oden will have foul trouble, but we know he won't be a bust. You do realize by swapping Oden for Davis, you get a completely different view on a NBA career. Davis will never be as nearly as good as Oden. We saw Oden develop over the course of last year in college, we didn't with Davis.

Anyways, I never said anything about Davis being a bust, I only said he will take some time to develop, since he is still raw talent going by what we saw in *College and Summer League*.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Oden WILL have foul troubles in the league, most bigs do get into foul trouble during games...have you guys ever WATCHED a game before? Especially in Odens case considering how many shot blocks he'll attempt each game, it's not far fetched to say he'll struggle with fouling. 

And P-Dub that really was a terrible post, Quite Frankly said it perfectly. By swapping Oden in for Davis the same things won't apply, because they are completely different players with completely different holes in their game. Davis has far more holes, holes that IMO are going to hinder his NBA career. I can't say the same for Oden, can you?


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> We all know Oden will have foul trouble, but we know he won't be a bust.


Now, I don't think Oden will bust either, but you got anything else in your crystal ball that says exactly what will and will not happen?



> You do realize by swapping Oden for Davis, you get a completely different view on a NBA career. Davis will never be as nearly as good as Oden. We saw Oden develop over the course of last year in college, we didn't with Davis.


You and your crony missed the point completely. I'm not comparing Oden and Davis as players - I never once even tried to do so. I'm using them as variables in your "formula." Figure it out before you reply, please. I'm merely noting that if you are using college + SL as criteria for how good a player is going to be in the NBA, you can't just do that for Glen Davis; it'd be hypocritical. You'd have to use it for everybody. So by GO saying that because of his college and summer league struggles, Davis won't be any good, you have to say the same for Oden, too, otherwise you're bending your criteria to suit your ends. Same with a guy like Kedrick Brown. His college strengths transferred to summer league. But he's bagging groceries at Co-Op now. 

And the entire gist of my entire post was that your opinion is completely valid, as is Causeway's regarding how Davis will do. I SPECIFICALLY pointed that out. You are all getting so hung up on how good I think Davis will be compared to Oden that you're missing the point completely. My contention is only that you cannot judge the kind of NBA career a player will have from college and summer league alone. This has been proven time and time again.

And I'm not even saying Davis will or won't be any damn good. But I'm waiting until I see some NBA games to judge.


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> Now, I don't think Oden will bust either, but you got anything else in your crystal ball that says exactly what will and will not happen?
> 
> 
> You and your crony missed the point completely. I'm not comparing Oden and Davis as players - I never once even tried to do so. I'm using them as variables in your "formula." Figure it out before you reply, please. I'm merely noting that if you are using college + SL as criteria for how good a player is going to be in the NBA, you can't just do that for Glen Davis; it'd be hypocritical. You'd have to use it for everybody. So by GO saying that because of his college and summer league struggles, Davis won't be any good, you have to say the same for Oden, too, otherwise you're bending your criteria to suit your ends. Same with a guy like Kedrick Brown. His college strengths transferred to summer league. But he's bagging groceries at Co-Op now.
> ...


Obviously you didn't get our point. We didn't say Davis will never amount to anything in the NBA, but we simply stated his flaws will hinder his career, maybe to the extent of preventing him of being more than average. And you can judge upon a player from what you see from college and summer league. That is what they are going to be *unless* they improve upon it. Davis had a good 05-06 season, but had a let down last year, which leaves you wondering if he can improve or not.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Actually, Oden said something along the lines of him being out of the NBA quickly. He wrote him off the board because of his college and SL careers, which is where I have a problem. I'm waiting to see him play some games in the big boy league before I say the guy will be out of the NBA in rapid fashion. Get it?


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> Actually, Oden said something along the lines of him being out of the NBA quickly. He wrote him off the board because of his college and SL careers, which is where I have a problem. I'm waiting to see him play some games in the big boy league before I say the guy will be out of the NBA in rapid fashion. Get it?


He will be gone if he doesn't improve. He didn't show signs of improvement in his last year of college and summer league. He might have a miraculous turnaround and maybe not, but it appears he will go the latter.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Quite Frankly said:


> And you can judge upon a player from what you see from college and summer league. That is what they are going to be *unless* they improve upon it.




hahaha riiiiiiiiiiiight


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Like Kedrick Brown. He was in the NBA as he was in college and the summer league...oh, wait...


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> And you can judge upon a player from what you see from college and summer league. That is what they are going to be unless they improve upon it.


I haven't had a problem with a whole lot of what you've said until now. This is just plain wrong.

I guess Von Wafer and Marcus Banks will be elite scorers, then. Where's Kedrick Brown now? Didn't Kwame Brown abuse summer league? What about two-time All-America, jersey retired at Kansas, Nick Collison? What about LaFrentz? Wasn't he the conference player of the year twice? According to their college and summer leagues they should've been about the two best big men ever. Olowokandi? Lit up the NCAA in his last year at Pacific. Need any more examples? Because there have been too many guys who've destroyed the NBA and summer league only to lead very forgettable careers. Mo Ager, Azuibuike, Blatche, Novak, Shannon Brown, hell - Sebastian freaking Telfair were summer league all-stars in 2006. 2005's included Justin Reed, Josh Powell, Alex Acker, Eddie Basden, and on and on and on and on. That year Chris Paul and Leandro Barbosa were outplayed by Luke Jackson and Sebastian Telfair. Jose Juan Barea outplayed a lot of NBA rotation players in summer league this year. 

But yeah, college and summer league are all you need to know about how a player's gonna pan out. 

Check please.


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> I haven't had a problem with a whole lot of what you've said until now. This is just plain wrong.
> 
> I guess Von Wafer and Marcus Banks will be elite scorers, then. Where's Kedrick Brown now? Didn't Kwame Brown abuse summer league? What about two-time All-America, jersey retired at Kansas, Nick Collison? What about LaFrentz? Wasn't he the conference player of the year twice? According to their college and summer leagues they should've been about the two best big men ever. Olowokandi? Lit up the NCAA in his last year at Pacific. Need any more examples? Because there have been too many guys who've destroyed the NBA and summer league only to lead very forgettable careers.


Obviously they won't be elite scorers, that would be taking summer league a little bit too seriously. I didn't hear about them in college, and I heard bits and pieces about them in summer league. Did they have good games in summer league? Yes, but it doesn't translate into stardom. Marcus Banks played one game in summer league and happened to score 42 points, that doesn't mean he will be an elite scorer. Heck LaFrentz has scored 32 in game before, but he ain't no elite scorer. Has Kwame showed anything in the NBA before summer league? No. Kandi man? *HE PLAYED AT PACIFIC*. Who is Kendrick Brown? Is he even on a team?

Nick Collison has been hurt for most of his career, up until last year really, and had a decent season for guy trying to get back into his funk. So as for Collison, we will see.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

But you just said college + summer league determines how good a player would be. Now when you're faced with this you say it's "taking it too seriously"? 

Please. You seem like a nice enough guy, but I'm not typing any more posts dedicated to how wrong you are about college and summer league accurately showing how a player's career is going to pan out. That's ignorant. How good of a player you are going to be is judged by how well a guy plays in the National Basketball Association. 

Period.


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> But you just said college + summer league determines how good a player would be. Now when you're faced with this you say it's "taking it too seriously"?
> 
> Please.


Alright, lets get this straight. Summer league is typically easy to experienced players. Glen Davis did decent in summer league, but definitely showed flaws, which is why he won't good as a pro. College he showed them, and even summer league he showed them. What happens when he is the NBA at the 4? He won't make a good pro.

Obviously you can't comprehend this. Ignorance is bliss.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Quite Frankly said:


> Alright, lets get this straight. Summer league is typically easy to experienced players. Glen Davis did decent in summer league, but definitely showed flaws, which is why he won't good as a pro. College he showed them, and even summer league he showed them. What happens when he is the NBA at the 4? He won't make a good pro.
> 
> Obviously you can't comprehend this. Ignorance is bliss.


Or he just has weaknesses he needs to work on.

Lets talk about them.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Quite Frankly said:


> Alright, lets get this straight. Summer league is typically easy to experienced players. Glen Davis did decent in summer league, but definitely showed flaws, which is why he won't good as a pro. College he showed them, and even summer league he showed them. What happens when he is the NBA at the 4? He won't make a good pro.
> 
> Obviously you can't comprehend this. Ignorance is bliss.


Just because you're arrogant doesn't mean you're right. While tactfully ignoring my points, you also failed to realize that I'm agreeing that summer league and college do give us some indication as to a player's worth. But it's not the be all and end all that you think it is, as I've proven and you've yet to find a counter for. I'm not even upset that you disagree with me, because that's what boards are all about, I'm just frustrated that you select tiny parts of my post and leave the rest of it, which proved unequivocally that college + summer league don't prove how successful someone is going to be in the league. And you still seem to believe I'm on one side or the other about how good Davis is going to be. I guess somebody forgot to tell that to Brad Miller, Ben Wallace, and the scores of other players that have had careers vastly different than their collegiate and summer league ones.

As for "Kendrick Brown," don't worry about him. I guess you were only ten or eleven when he was drafted, lit up summer league, an subsequently busted.

But hey, keep ignoring the truth. Ignorance is bliss, right?



> Lets talk about them.


No. It's already said and done that the guy's going to be out of the NBA after his rookie contract is up anyways, so why waste the time?


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> Just because you're arrogant doesn't mean you're right. While tactfully ignoring my points, you also failed to realize that I'm agreeing that summer league and college do give us some indication as to a player's worth. But it's not the be all and end all that you think it is, as I've proven and you've yet to find a counter for. I'm not even upset that you disagree with me, because that's what boards are all about, I'm just frustrated that you select tiny parts of my post and leave the rest of it, which proved unequivocally that college + summer league don't prove how successful someone is going to be in the league. And you still seem to believe I'm on one side or the other about how good Davis is going to be. I guess somebody forgot to tell that to Brad Miller, Ben Wallace, and the scores of other players that have had careers vastly different than their collegiate and summer league ones.
> 
> As for "Kendrick Brown," don't worry about him. I guess you were only ten or eleven when he was drafted, lit up summer league, an subsequently busted.
> 
> ...


Wow you ignorant. 

Ben Wallace


> As a senior, Wallace earned Division II All-American first team honors after averaging 12.5 ppg., 10.5 rpg. and 3.7 bpg. and leading Virginia Union to the Division II Final Four and a 28-3 record. As a junior he averaged 14.4 ppg. and 9.5 rpg., and was a two-year starter at Cuyahoga Community College (Ohio) where as a sophomore he averaged 24 ppg., 17 rpg. and 7 bpg.


I guess we figured he wouldn't be an excellent shot blocker from this.

http://www.usabasketball.com/biosmen/ben_wallace_bio.html

Brad Miller


> • In his four seasons (1994-95 through 1997-98) at Purdue, the Boilermakers compiled a 97-33 for a 74.6 winning percentage, while making four NCAA Tournament appearances, and claiming two Big Ten Conference titles.
> 
> • Played in 127 games in four seasons at Purdue, averaged during his career 11.9 ppg., 6.7 rpg., 2.0 apg., while shooting 57.2 percent from the field, 75.4 percent from the foul line.
> 
> ...


http://www.usabasketball.com/biosmen/brad_miller_bio.html

Seems Brad Miller played like crap in college as well. Ignorance is bliss you were saying?


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Who said they played like crap in college? I really don't remember making any such claim, but I certainly see where your point arose from. What I was saying is that neither of them played well enough in college to even warrant being drafted. Also, you're contradicting yourself now because before you wrote off the Olowokandi example because he played at Pacific, and now you're upping Miller and Wallace, whoplayed at Purdue and Virginia frigging Union. So which is it? You can't keep bending your specifications to your own end.

And you still haven't explained to me how, if what you say is true, scores of great college and summer league players have sucked in the NBA. I need to know, if college and SL tells us how good a player's going to be, why Joseph Forte (another name you won't know, incidentally) isn't an All-NBA first teamer right now? Why Joe Smith wasn't a perennial all-star? 

Ahh, nevermind, you don't have answers for any of these questions anyway. In your world, keep thinking college and summer league completely determine an entire player's fate, and ignore the literal HUNDREDS of examples that contradict you. We're through here, kid, you're clearly not getting the point.

It's really too bad Causeway is in this argument, because had he not shown up, E.H. would've already delivered an extremely seething coup de gras by now, and we'd be finished here.

Oh well.


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> Who said they played like crap in college? I really don't remember making any such claim, but I certainly see where your point arose from. What I was saying is that neither of them played well enough in college to even warrant being drafted. Also, you're contradicting yourself now because before you wrote off the Olowokandi example because he played at Pacific, and now you're upping Miller and Wallace, whoplayed at Purdue and Virginia frigging Union. So which is it? You can't keep bending your specifications to your own end.
> 
> And you still haven't explained to me how, if what you say is true, scores of great college and summer league players have sucked in the NBA. I need to know, if college and SL tells us how good a player's going to be, why Joseph Forte (another name you won't know, incidentally) isn't an All-NBA first teamer right now? Why Joe Smith wasn't a perennial all-star?
> 
> ...


In fact I know you Joe Forte is, in fact I remember that the Celtics had three picks that year. I clearly remember he wasn't a lottery pick.

I guessed you missed my answer on the high scorers in summer league.



> Obviously they won't be elite scorers, that would be taking summer league a little bit too seriously. I didn't hear about them in college, and I heard bits and pieces about them in summer league. Did they have good games in summer league? Yes, but it doesn't translate into stardom. Marcus Banks played one game in summer league and happened to score 42 points, that doesn't mean he will be an elite scorer. Heck LaFrentz has scored 32 in game before, but he ain't no elite scorer.


Also don't knock on Purdue, because they are most definitely in a competitive conference. Virgina Union might be Division 2, but what I was getting at was he was going to be a defensive star. Sophomore year he had 7 blocks a game, that is a great number at any level.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

We're still not connecting, but that's okay. We'll see how everything turns out.


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> We're still not connecting, but that's okay. We'll see how everything turns out.


To be honest I am sick of posting here as well. Let's just let Big Baby do his thing, and see if he makes anything of himself.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Causeway said:


> Like Kedrick Brown. He was in the NBA as he was in college and the summer league...oh, wait...


C way you keep bringing up that ONE guy. I could name a million different scenarios to fit MY theory as well. 

If your point is living and dying by one or two different examples it's not a very valid point IMO.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

GregOden said:


> C way you keep bringing up that ONE guy. I could name a million different scenarios to fit MY theory as well.




go ahead.


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

So much for the posts on this thread coming to an end.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

GregOden said:


> C way you keep bringing up that ONE guy. I could name a million different scenarios to fit MY theory as well.
> 
> If your point is living and dying by one or two different examples it's not a very valid point IMO.


And you have ignored responding to this one player. Why should I list more? P-Dub listed MANY players where their college and SL careers did not at all reflect their NBA career. And your only example is a guy who has not even played one NBA game - Davis.

So yes, let's hear your "million different scenarios to fit YOUR theory".


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Want some examples? Here's just from 06.

Randy Foye, nearly 25 ppg in SL, played well in college, made all rookie first time.

Brandon Roy, 19 ppg on 64.7% shooting. Obviously played well in college, won ROY.

David Lee played pretty good in college, averaged 15-9.4 in SL, and now Isiah doesn't even want to move the kid for Ron Artest.

Should I keep going? You can throw Lamarcus Aldridge in there as well if you'd like

He obviously rocked college, came into summer league averaged 11.6 ppg 6.6 rebounds 2.2 apg 1 steal a game, and a very impressive 1.8 blocks per game. Kid made first team all rookie, did he not? He's poised to take over the starting PF position this year as well.

Is that enough? Mind you thats all simply from 06.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

noooooooo ur kidding....the number 2 overall, 6 overall and 7 overall picks in the draft all played great in college and the summer leage and are all really good in the nba??? what a shock...you are so totally right that college and summer league proves your worth in the nba


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

exactly AW. :biggrin: I'd say comparing the #2 pick to a second rounder is flawed.

More importantly Oden - your theory is that if your showed flaws in college and the SL, you don't have a shot in the NBA. Not the other way around. There are MANY examples of guys who did not have stellar college careers, or light up the SL - who then went on to have fine NBA careers.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

What second rounders dominate college? That's the reason they're second rounders.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Causeway said:


> exactly AW. :biggrin: I'd say comparing the #2 pick to a second rounder is flawed.
> 
> More importantly Oden - your theory is that if your showed flaws in college and the SL, you don't have a shot in the NBA. Not the other way around. There are MANY examples of guys who did not have stellar college careers, or light up the SL - who then went on to have fine NBA careers.


That's NOT my point dude. I'm saying DAVIS doesn't have much of a shot at the NBA, just him. I never said that was some formula I use to predict futures, I simply said what I think DAVIS'S career will be. 

I don't think DAVIS will be anything the NBA. DAVIS. DAVIS. That's the thread topic, isn't it? DAVIS didn't impress me in college, and now DAVIS showed me in SL the reasons why I didn't like DAVIS in college. Hence me thinking DAVIS'S NBA career will be a shorter one. DAVIS.

Better? DAVIS.


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## CelticsRule (Jul 22, 2002)

GregOden said:


> What second rounders dominate college? That's the reason they're second rounders.



Carlos Boozer, Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, Ryan Gomes...


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

This board is all about bringing up the minority I see.

Yes there are SOME second rounders that dominate college. Just like there's 5th rounders in football that dominate in college.

You can always find a small percentage to prove a point, but the MAJORITY of second rounders don't dominate college. Is that a false statement?


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

GregOden said:


> That's NOT my point dude. I'm saying DAVIS doesn't have much of a shot at the NBA, just him. I never said that was some formula I use to predict futures, I simply said what I think DAVIS'S career will be.
> 
> I don't think DAVIS will be anything the NBA. DAVIS. DAVIS. That's the thread topic, isn't it? DAVIS didn't impress me in college, and now DAVIS showed me in SL the reasons why I didn't like DAVIS in college. Hence me thinking DAVIS'S NBA career will be a shorter one. DAVIS.
> 
> Better? DAVIS.


EDIT: forget it. Not worth it.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I see the board's idiot brigade marches on. Second round picks tend to dominate college, as well. Just as Davis did. There's generally a reason that they were drafted, and their sartorial sense isn't it. There are about 4500 Div 1 college players, in any give year 50 will be drafted, meaning that the top 1% (or so) of college players get selected. Therefore, even in the late second round you're seeing the cream of the crap. It shouldn't be a surprise that these guys were good college players, but being a good college player is no guarantee that someone will be a good pro player. Neither is playing well in summer league a guarantee that a guy will play well in the NBA. Playing badly, on the other hand, should send up warning flags. Especially for guards (given that summer league is guard oriented). But players can dominate college with deeply flawed games (from an NBA perspective). Davis, for example, compensated for his height/length issues with girth in the NCAA. Something he can't do in the pros. He needs to patch a lot of holes, and his performance in summer league should raise a few questions.

So, will Davis be a good pro? Who knows. He could be a poor man's Carlos Boozer. He could also be a poor man's Juwon Howard. Too early to tell. But he's going to have to work his *** off to replace girth with strength if has any hope of all at making it in the NBA. He does have some nice skills that our other "beasts" lack (like the ability to properly execute a pick & roll or a pick & pop, the ability to get and convert free throws). So he's an interesting prospect. A gamble, to be sure, but it's not like they passed over the next Gilbert Arenas to draft him.


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

GregOden said:


> What second rounders dominate college? That's the reason they're second rounders.


Add in Fazekas, Paul Milsap, Josh McRoberts, DJ Strawberry, Paul Davis, PJ Tucker, Craig Smith, Dee Brown, Leon Powe, Guillermo Diaz, and Hassan Adams.

In the last 2 years.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

I stopped reading at McRoberts. I'm a huge Dukie, TRUST me...McRoberts never dominated college ball at any point. If he would have, he would have at least been a lottery pick.

You have a very weak definition of "dominated".


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

2nd Rounders Not Named:

Rashard Lewis
Mehmet Okur
Mo Williams
Rafer Alston
Manu Ginobli
Cuttino Mobley
Stephen Jackson
Monta Ellis


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

GregOden said:


> I stopped reading at McRoberts. I'm a huge Dukie, TRUST me...McRoberts never dominated college ball at any point. If he would have, he would have at least been a lottery pick.
> 
> You have a very weak definition of "dominated".


Then there are only 4 or 5 dominant players per draft making this debate completely inconsequential


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

no tank u


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

silverpaw1786 said:


> Then there are only 4 or 5 dominant players per draft making this debate completely inconsequential


So you name off all those players as dominant college second rounders, and then say this?

What am I supposed to say to you when you directly contradict yourself.


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