# Southern Europe FIBA's Champions Cup Final Four



## WonderPelekanos (Dec 17, 2002)

I put here the results of the F4 played in Sofia this week, most of all for Zelena Hracka who was deeply interested in this competion: 

Semifinals: 
Aris (GRE) - Peristeri (GRE) 86-84 
Lukoil Academic (BUL) - Turk Telekom (TUR) 99-83 

Finals: 
3rd place: Turk Telekom - Peristeri 86-70
1st place: Lukoil Academic - Aris 81-80


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>WonderPelekanos</b>!
> I put here the results of the F4 played in Sofia this week, most of all for Zelena Hracka who was deeply interested in this competion:
> 
> Semifinals:
> ...


Thank you my friend. I think you all (or at least the ones following the TB forum) know my opinion of this competition. However, it is true that I was particularly interested in this competition which was taking place in my birthplace (Sofia). 

Peristeri had no chance from the very beggining, for a number of reasons. Despite being almost unbeaten in the competition Peristeri went to Sofia just the last moment (they were thinking of not going at all) and moreover without some key players like Stewart and Pelekanos. Furthermore, they were not interested in this competition as they have more serious goals in which they should focus, such as the avoidance of relegation (they are bottom in the Greek league). 

Turk Telecom comes from Turkey so I don't care about them (If only erciyes could read this!!! )

Aris wasn't motivated either because they knew how pointless and worthless this F4 is. They just went there to play what they can, and if possible, win the title with as less efford (and energy wasted) as possible. They almost did it, but unfortunately for them, they came across Priest Lauderdale.

Akademik, unlike the rest of the Bulgarian teams has lots of money since their sponsor (Lukoil) is the biggest Russian oil company. What's more, they have bought good inside players and did not rely on 3-point shooters as the rest of the Bulgarian teams used to do. Also they had the home court advantage and the biggest motivation, from all 4 teams, to play well in this tournament. And they won. But still, they won a useless trophy. 

Calling this trophy an "European Trophy" is a blasphemy. How can we possibly compare it to the Euroleague, the ULEB cup, the Saporta, or the good old Korac cup? You win a title playing against teams from Bosnia, FYROM, bottom teams from Greece and Israel, and you are supposed to be boasting for having a "European trophy" in your trophy case? I'm sorry to say this (to my compatriots) but winning the Christmas tournament in Madrid has more prestige than what you've won!

Let's see if this will bring the Bulgarians closer to basketball. Or, at least, if it will make them to change their way of thinking and move away from the old-fashioned and unreliable attacking system of "shoot unstoppably for 3s and pray". Akademik with Lauderdale have shown the way for a more modern way to play basketball.


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## starbonis (Aug 7, 2002)

???.

it's strange that there was a F4 for this regional part of the Fiba cup, cos my team SIG ( Strasbourg FRA) didn't compepete in a F4 and thay go further in the competition versus Aris.


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## Reznor (Jan 17, 2003)

The reason for that is FIBA's failure to find enough teams in Western Europe to form 4 groups of 6 teams. They had to go to the 2nd Div. in Italy and Spain to fill some spaces... 

anyways, I've never seen a final four with no meaning. Many Champion Cup teams, such as Peristeri, have no money to travel to the real games, so why make them spend more money on games that have no influence on the future? it's bigger than me...


I think Bnei HaSharon of Israel didn't fight too hard in their last game at home Vs. Krevanos, so they won't finish 1st in their group and will have to take part in this stupid F4.


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Reznor</b>!
> The reason for that is FIBA's failure to find enough teams in Western Europe to form 4 groups of 6 teams. They had to go to the 2nd Div. in Italy and Spain to fill some spaces...


Isn't this pathetic?



> Originally posted by <b>Reznor</b>!
> I think Bnei HaSharon of Israel didn't fight too hard in their last game at home Vs. Krevanos, so they won't finish 1st in their group and will have to take part in this stupid F4.


Even if Bnei had won the game against Keravnos they would still have ended 2nd since in case of a tie with Aris they had the disadvantage (they won in Thessaloniki by 3 but they lost at home with 9). However the idea of avoiding this F4 (by any means) was a good idea, indeed.


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## starbonis (Aug 7, 2002)

Yes Pathetic is the right word to describe the value of this FIBA Cup. My team Strasbourg (14th of 16 French Champion) did play ballers from Austria, Spain 2nd diivsion....A real shame. this cup had no interest.

I just hope that this second rounf will be more glamorous to watch. Aris looks like a bad team in greece, but I believe that they can make it through those series. 

Strasbourg ???. Finished first in their group, but are really close of leaving the first division in a middle-upper league like France.

Pathetic....this Cup just kills the interest of anonymous sports-fan for basketball in europe.


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## Reznor (Jan 17, 2003)

Yeh, I know Bnei would have finished 2nd, but by losing they "secured" the 2nd spot. If Aris had lost to Split, Bnei were going to Sofia!!! Thanks for 

The sad thing is that even if you do win this cup... it has no glamor, u know... so you won the Champion Cup on 2002. big deal. And I didn't even mention that challenge cup joke.


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## starbonis (Aug 7, 2002)

Here in Strasbourg, this Cup is still watched as a good thing. The club will gain some Fiba points for further competition like the "Drazen Petrovic Chamionship Tournament of all cities with more than 10 letters in their names SouthWestern Poll".

Does the Fiba points system still exists. ???

Strasbourg played this Cup because the coach and staff thought that it was a good way to have a competitive team to play 2 times per week !!!. End of the story.

Now going to Israel is the best way to forfeit and to hide behind political reasons for just saying " this joke ain't funny no more, we want to stop".


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

*To Reznor*

May I ask you something Reznor? Are you Israeli by any chance? If yes I 'd like to ask you something for which I was argueing with some Israelis in the past.


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## Reznor (Jan 17, 2003)

Yeh, I am from Israel.
Bring it on!


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Reznor</b>!
> Yeh, I am from Israel.
> Bring it on!


Well, here's how it goes....

While in TB forum, me, WP and Berg ( the guy to whom I'm referring in the Nicknames thread) were arguing with two guys from Isreal ( I think they were nicknamed "Tal" and "T&B Maccabi") over who should be considered as the real European champion of Europe for the year 2001. Should it be Kinder Bologna (the winner of ULEB's Euroleague) or should it be Maccabi (as the winner of FIBA's Suproleague)? 

These two guys claimed that should be Maccabi because they won the "original" and "legal" competition organized by the officials of FIBA. However we argued that the real champion should be Kinder because they won a much harder competition as the Euroleague which was compposed of all the powerhouses of Europe. In our opinion in the Suproleague even though it was the official tournament , the teams that were taking part in it were of the like of Lulea, (Old) Siena, Iraklis Th., etc. and that only a couple of teams were indeed strong (CSKA, PAO, Maccabi etc).

In my opinion neither Kinder or Maccabi should be seen as the Champions. Since they haven''t played with each other we can't tell who's was the champ.

If indeed, Maccabi should be seen as the real european champion for that year, just because they played the original FIBA tournament, does this means that the real european champion for this season will be the winner of the Champion's Cup organized by FIBA? 
(probably UNICS Kazan or Akademik Sofia?)


What is your opinion of that? Please, try to be as non-biased as possible


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## Reznor (Jan 17, 2003)

Ah. They were just blind maccabi fans. Pathetic excuse. no need to get too excited about that. I'm myself a big Maccabi fan, at least in the Euroleague, but I try to be more...fair.

I'll start by saying I don't think Maccabi or Kinder were the real champs. There was no real champion that season in Europe. Only losers. Sadly, Maccabi had a great chance to win it all that season, even if there was no split, but they missed that. Forever they will have that little asterick next to the 00/01 title (as we used to say back then). 

Now, I think this is for a whooooole different thread, but I'm not sure the Suproleague was weaker than Euroleague. If you mentioned Lulea, Iraklis, Ra'anana and Old siena I can mention London Towers, (old) Skyliners, Jerusalem, Lugano and St. Petersburg.

The Euroleauge might had better mid-level teams, but considering top teams... I don't think Efes, CSKA, Pao and Maccabi were weaker, surely not MUCH weaker, than Kinder, Tau, AEK and Paf. 

Eran Sela, the biggest European basketball brains in Israel (and also the reporter of Euroleague.net in Israel) made a comparision back then between the leagues, I forgot by what measurements, and his conclusion was the Suproleague is by a tiny bit better, BUT... forget that.

That season sucked. It's a shame Ginobili and Jaric didn't get the chance to leave Europe with the REAL title. Same goes for Huffman and McDonald.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Any of you guys interested in writing editorials about the pro leagues you follow and the players there? Pm me if interested.


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Reznor</b>!
> Ah. They were just blind maccabi fans. Pathetic excuse. no need to get too excited about that. I'm myself a big Maccabi fan, at least in the Euroleague, but I try to be more...fair.
> 
> I'll start by saying I don't think Maccabi or Kinder were the real champs. There was no real champion that season in Europe. Only losers. Sadly, Maccabi had a great chance to win it all that season, even if there was no split, but they missed that. Forever they will have that little asterick next to the 00/01 title (as we used to say back then).
> ...


It seems that we agree. Indeed I think that there were no winners in that year. We can't say that there were two european champions. There was none. It was a shame because we could have a superb tournament with a magnifiscent F4 with Kinder, TAU, Maccabi and PAO. 

The only thing that I find myself disagree with you is the comparison of the two leagues. I still believe that EL was more tough than the SL for a number of reasons. There strong teams of SL were: CSKA, Maccabi, Efes, PAO, Ulker, Scavolini and all the rest were teams of the level of ...the Champions cup. Moreover there were no spanish teams at all.

On the other hand we had: Benetton, Paf, Kinder, AEK, PAO, Olympiakos, Peristeri (the true greek champion of thet year), Barcelona, Real, TAU, Zalgiris, Olimpija and the rest were "Ch.Cup" teams. On top of that ther was the play-off system which was a tough and (more fair) way of finding the champ. 

Anyway. We'll never find who was the european champ of that year. It doesn't matter anymore which was harder, the EL or the SL. Let's hope that this will never happen again.


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## Reznor (Jan 17, 2003)

> There strong teams of SL were: CSKA, Maccabi, Efes, PAO, Ulker, Scavolini and all the rest were teams of the level of ...the Champions cup. Moreover there were no spanish teams at all.


You wrote down here 6 teams in the SL, but u left out ASVEL and Pau. not top teams, but certainly EL teams and not C. Cup (although they way they look this season....I have some doubts). so in total there were 8 top teams in the SL. 



> On the other hand we had: Benetton, Paf, Kinder, AEK, PAO, Olympiakos, Peristeri (the true greek champion of thet year), Barcelona, Real, TAU, Zalgiris, Olimpija and the rest were "Ch.Cup" teams.


You wrote down here 10 teams, but mentioned PAO as one of them. take them off you got 9 top teams.

9 in the EL, 8 in the SL... almost a tie. 

btw, SL also had Idea Slask, Partizan & Alba which are also part of the top competition in the last years. EL had also Buducnost and Cibona.

If you take today's EL there are 11 teams from the 00/01 EL (Benetton, Barcelona, Skipper, Cibona, AEK, Olimpija, Tau, Buducnost, Virtus, Real & Olympiacos), and.... 11 from the SP (Efes, Alba, Pau, Pao, Siena, Maccabi, CSKA, Ulker, Partizan, Idea Slask, Asvel). one big tie. 

if ur looking for a sure EL win, go to last season's Top 16. 9 from the EL, 6 from the SP and one Ural Great. 

I agree EL had better mid-level teams. wrote that before. and as u said the system was tougher. but... we won't get anywhere with this discussion. Especially since we both agree here (I just still need to convince u to give a little bit more respect to the SP ). 

but to hell with that. 

here's something bigger and more interesting...

what do u think about the system of the EL that is on now. do you think there should be 24 teams or is that too many? too little? Final Four or play-off series?


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## Jugonic (Jan 19, 2003)

First of all, I have to say I consider Euroleague 00/01 much better than Suproleague. Just my opinion, anyway, and you've already discussed the pros and cons of it.

About the Euroleague's competition system, here in Spain 'specialized' media is always saying 24 are too much, that there are very weak teams there. I agree that there are about 16 teams that are a step ahead over the rest but... Can you really choose at the start of the season 16 teams and find the best? Will you miss somebody really big? Is it fair to have 50% of Euroleague with Spanish and Italian teams? You cannot leave teams such French ones (I would lower them to one, anyway), Yugoslavian (also one) or 3rd Greek out. ****, AEK is current champion... who would had said it would be the worst of the competition? What about Olimpija, in the other way?

So for me 24 teams is the best for an interesting competition

However, I don't like the competition system. I love Final Four, I think it's really needed. But I don't like what is before. Top16 is exciting but too short... however, First round is too boring but so long. Why? Shouldn't we make first round more competitive and second one a bit longer?

My idea:

First round: four groups of 6 teams each. First three, and only first three, advance to second round. 4th and 5th (8 in total) go to ULEB Cup. 6th goes home.

Second round: Two groups of 6 teams each. First two of each group make it into Final Four. 

This would make 20 games before Final Four. And now there are 20 games, too...

I think this way Euroleague would be much more competitive, while ULEB Cup would be better as there would be joined by Euroleague level teams

What do you think of this idea? What are the cons for you?


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Reznor</b>!
> what do u think about the system of the EL that is on now. do you think there should be 24 teams or is that too many? too little? Final Four or play-off series?


I've put some thought on that. I tried to think what's better but I can't decide. I think 24 is OK but not in 3 groups. I quite like the old (FIBA) Euroleague system with 4 groups of 6 (for the first round only). I'm not quite sure what's best after the first round, though. 

As for the F4 or play-offs dilemma, I can't tell either. I think the play-offs are the most fair way of finding the best team of the league. The team that was best throughout the season will get the homecourt advantage over the rest. Also if one of the good teams does a bad game in the play-offs, will have a second chance to proceed. 

However I have to admit that I like F4's. The atmospaire, the pre-game excitement, the fans of the 4 teams in the same arena. I really like F4s. They also bring back so many memories, both bad and good. 

The 3 titles by Split. :banana:

Partizan's buzzerbeater against Juvendud. :cheers:

The lost semifinal for PAOK in Athens. :sigh: 

The "murder" of basketball by Limoges in the same competition 

Badalona's win over Olympiakos in Tel Aviv.  (I couldn't sleep that night, even though I hate Olympiakos)

The win of PAO in Paris against Barca (with Stojko's "stop") :angel:

The super Kinder in Barcelona. 

Zalgiris' unbelievable team winning in Munich.  


F4s are great, with so many emotions accompanying them.

Yet, Play-offs are better. What's more they give more credibility to the whole competition. However, they will "americanize" the tournament. 

Hell, I don't know.


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