# Game Thread ~ Orlando @ Toronto (12/21/2003)(TSN 4:00 EST)



## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

<CENTER><FONT FACE="arial black, arial" SIZE="4"><B><IMG SRC="http://www.nba.com/magic/images/magic_logo.gif" ALIGN="center">Orlando Magic Vs The Toronto Raptors <IMG SRC="http://www.nba.com/raptors/images/raptors_logo.gif" ALIGN="center"><hr>

Orlando Magic Starting Line Up







































Toronto Raptors Starting Line up






































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The Magic are coming off a 119 - 93 win against the Golden State Warriors. The Magic are red hot winning 5 out of their last 7 games. 

The Raptors who beat the Knicks on friday night are hoping for anothing strong outing against the Magic.

When T-Mac comes to town it's always an interesting game to watch.

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## VinceCarter15 (Oct 21, 2003)

OF COURSE we know the key matchup will be Tracy Mcgrady vs Vince Carter...and those 2 ALWAYS put on an entertaining game against each other...The Magic have been doing quite good lately after that like 19 game losing streak..This is one i say that Raptors should indeed win..Last night against the Knicks the reason we won...everyone wasplaying the ball and everyone was on their game...TMAC VS VC....Im looking foward to the battle of the cousins!


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## Slasher (Jul 11, 2003)

The last Raps-Magic meeting I missed when I was out, but this one I want to watch. :yes:


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

As usual, the Raptors will play crap in the 1st half and play own them in the 2nd half.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

I'm going to this game, so I'm hoping we win!

I say, Raptors 101, Magic 96


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

T-mac will badly outplay VC as usual but the Raps r a much better team then Orlando. Marshall will own the weak Magic frontcourt.

Toronto 102
Magic 97


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

another game i'm going to miss because i'm working.. maybe i'll leave early to catch the end of it.


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

"T-mac will badly outplay VC as usual..."


As usual? Got any proof that Tmac "outplays" VC in their head to head matchups? Besides the last game and the games where VC left because he got injured I seem to recall Vince as the one who usually does the outplaying.


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>djmyte</b>!
> "T-mac will badly outplay VC as usual..."
> 
> 
> As usual? Got any proof that Tmac "outplays" VC in their head to head matchups? Besides the last game and the games where VC left because he got injured I seem to recall Vince as the one who usually does the outplaying.


Seriously.... I am a big Vince Carter fan myself and I am not a Tmac fan of any way. But, They have played each other 10 times and Tmac has outplayed Vince 9 out of 10. 
But that doesn't necessarily mean Tmac literally > Vince. I have a feeling Vince will SCHOOL Tmac tomorrow.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> another game i'm going to miss because i'm working.. maybe i'll leave early to catch the end of it.



Didnt u say you are retired from this website? Why still post here? You dont get my welcome if u ask me, seriously.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> 
> Seriously.... I am a big Vince Carter fan myself and I am not a Tmac fan of any way. But, They have played each other 10 times and Tmac has outplayed Vince 9 out of 10.
> But that doesn't necessarily mean Tmac literally > Vince. I have a feeling Vince will SCHOOL Tmac tomorrow.



Who cares about head to head matchup, I just want to see a win from our Raps.


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

> Seriously.... I am a big Vince Carter fan myself and I am not a Tmac fan of any way. But, They have played each other 10 times and Tmac has outplayed Vince 9 out of 10.


Tmac outplayed Vince "stat wise" in their only matchup this year yet Vince won the game for his team(what's more important, stats or the win?). Last year Orl and Tor faced each other 4 times. Vince had a DNP in 3 of those games and played hurt in the other one. They don't keep the box scores from before the 2002/2001 season(least not on the Raps website) so I don't know the previous box scores but I do know Tmac doesn't outplay Vince at a 9-1 clip.


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

well unless Raps can close this one out early i think it's gonna be a 4th quarter shoot-out btw VC and T-mac again.... personally that's what I want to see, w/ VC coming out on top of course


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

T-MAC VS VC IS THE MAIN EVENT.......Lets not forget about some other guys for Orlando coming of of good games. Rod stickland and Drew Gooden played very well for the Magic last time out. We will have to be aware of the players coming off of the bench, the combination of Gooden and Bogans has been a great lift for Orlando, if our bench takes the night off we will be in trouble.

To win this game we need Mo Pete to show up and for Baxter to go off for 10 points 8 boards. Not to mention solid preformances from the starters. Vince must help out on the glass. 

I say it all the time, Carter does not rebound the near well enough for his size and ability.


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

I agree, Carter should avg more boards...but to his credit he does tend to grab key rebounds near the end of games.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

I agree with the fact that Vince does grab key boards down the stretch....but why wait until 5 minutes left in the game?


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

The key to the game is if T-mac can finnish up the game..

Good luck and enjoy..i cant wait another 5 hours to watch..HURRRYY UP>>>

101-99 Magic win


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Vince is due for a big game and has got plenty of rest lately. It should be a close one and Tmac will be looking to abuse his defenders all night long. Should be a good test of our double teams and defensive rotations. Yell will be matched with Gooden for much of the game (i think), a quicker PF than most that can get out on the perimeter and guard. 

Vince will keep attacking baseline and should get all the way to the basket or dish off to Bosh in the paint. Make it difficult to double team with perimeter players, getting AW easy shots especially. 

Should be a very fun game. Can't wait.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> The key to the game is if T-mac can finnish up the game..
> 
> Good luck and enjoy..i cant wait another 5 hours to watch..HURRRYY UP>>>
> ...


you made the thread in the ORL board about how Magic fans are way better than TOR fans


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

key matchup:

Chris Bosh vs Zaza Pachulia

everyone's been craving for this matchup ever since the draft. time to renew old rivalries.


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## open mike (Jan 3, 2003)

Still early in the first quarter.

Raptors lead 16 - 15.

Donyell Marshall is showing that he is a rebounding force. He has 4 points and 4 boards.

Tmac is 2- 6. Both him and Carter(1-1) have 4 points each.

Bosh gets 2 early fouls and Lonny Baxter comes in.


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

I'm liking the game so far though magic can be better on defense..

This is a fun game to watch..

i hope magic have a 6 pt lead w/ 3 min to go in the 4th..


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

My god. When was the last time Vince was being selfish, in a positive way. It's ironic how he passes this year that would of been shots he would of taken in the early years. It's good to be unselfish, but he's TOO "TOO" unselfish.


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## Vinsanity (May 28, 2002)

damn, i dont have TSN, and my satelittes down......:upset:


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vinsanity</b>!
> damn, i dont have TSN, and my satelittes down......:upset:


pwned
that's what you get for making the randolph thread


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

good game so far, 49 apiece 

loved how gooden just got BOSHED


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> pwned
> that's what you get for making the randolph thread




:laugh: 
:laugh: 
:laugh: 

:laugh: 
:laugh: 
:laugh:


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

:nonono: on VC.

he's passing up way too many times. i hope he's saving energy for the last 2 quarters. this game's still tied with VC not being a factor.

oh, and i barfed when VC let Giricek drive by him.


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

Wow, Vince doesn't want to take a god damn slash or a shot. His mindset is just pass, pass, and pass


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

what is w/ vince?? he's taken 13 LESS shots than T-mac!! I guess he's saving it all for the 4th quarter again...


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> loved how gooden just got BOSHED


sad how Bosh just get GOODENED


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## Goku (Aug 28, 2003)

Bosh's defence has completely disappeared lately.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Goku</b>!
> Bosh's defence has completely disappeared lately.


what? 
i don't know bout you, but bosh is playing pretty good around around the basket. his only problem is getting toughened out.


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

Absolutely no determination from Vince in the first 3 quarters.


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> sad how Bosh just get GOODENED


He didn't dunk on Bosh. He just rebound-dunked with no one under him, except for his teammate.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

let's see what VC can do


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> Absolutely no determination from Vince in the first 3 quarters.


Actually make that no determination from the Raptors. Seconds into the 4th quarter, they give up like 6 points and now it's 82-71 Magic. Hahaha, even if Vince plays clutch, it still wouldn't matter IF the Magic play as a team.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> Actually make that no determination from the Raptors. Seconds into the 4th quarter, they give up like 6 points and now it's 82-71 Magic. Hahaha, even if Vince plays clutch, it still wouldn't matter IF the Magic play as a team.


dude shut up. pack up your bags and ride the wagon outta here.

you call yourself a raps fan but you love to see them lose moreso than win. some fan you are.

and i'm not even going to get into you saying you're a big VC fan.


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

Did I say all the Raptors? Let me say except for Bosh.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> Did I say all the Raptors? Let me say except for Bosh.


yes, and let's forget Marshall too, and Alvin.


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## Goku (Aug 28, 2003)

see what happens when Bosh gets criticised.....thats why I did it. I knew he'd respond. He just needed a punch in the arm to wake him up


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> dude shut up. pack up your bags and ride the wagon outta here.
> ...


You're not in University, you're more like 12 years old. Making ignorant comments about thinking it's so right; Get a life.


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## Goku (Aug 28, 2003)

why is Bosh sitting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oneils deserves all the criticism he gets for his sub=patterns


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> 
> *You're not in University*, you're more like 12 years old. Making ignorant comments about thinking it's so right; Get a life.


yes i am, and just look at your constant VC bashing and :laugh:ing at the raps during this game.

some fan you are. 

edit: and :laugh: at him saying how i make ignorant comments :laugh: :laugh:. now that's *irony*.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> 
> You're not in University, you're more like 12 years old. Making ignorant comments about thinking it's so right; Get a life.


English, please. :laugh:

Alvin Williams has had his best game of the season so far, and Donyell Marshall is establishing himself as one of the best forwards in the East. It'll be pretty tough to leave him off the All-Star team at this rate.

I'm impressed.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> 
> 
> English, please.


just because i didn't post my university insignia on my av like speedythief did, he thinks i'm not in Uni. :laugh:


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> yes i am, and just look at your constant VC bashing and :laugh:ing at the raps during this game.
> ...


So Chuck Swirsky isn't a Raptor fan since he makes negative remarks about the Raptors when they just play stupid.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> 
> 
> So Chuck Swirsky isn't a Raptor fan since he makes negative remarks about the Raptors when they just play stupid.


you're comparing yourself to Chuck Swirsky? damn, you're even more foolish than i thought.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

and once again, making sense with you goes nowhere so i can pretty much summarize what you're gonna say:



> Originally posted by *Mattsanity*!
> blah blah blah, blah blah blah, how in the bloody hell blah blah blah. ironically, blah blah blah.
> 
> you're such a hypocrite


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> you're comparing yourself to Chuck Swirsky? damn, you're even more foolish than i thought.


You're a waste of time of my life. Only if there was an option on this board to ban users of your choice.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

well it's pretty much done.

once again, rebounding haunts us.


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## macro6 (Jul 23, 2002)

REBOUNDS REBOUNDS REBOUNDS!!


argh!!!!!11


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## open mike (Jan 3, 2003)

ew vince makes me wanna throw up. he disgusts me. what is he thinking right now? im listening to the game on the radio and all i hear is vince passes, vince throws it away. 

what is he doing!!!!!!


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

The Raptors played so good. Unfortunately, the Magic just played alittle better. Vince Carter had a monster game late in the 4th, and he played exceptionally fantastic in the first 3 quarters. Bosh, Alvin, and Marshall were playing so hard along side the Nucleus (Vince) to win this, but the Rebounds just haunted them and unfortunately, couldn't pull this out with a win. 

Is this the type of post you want trick? Dumb kid, you got to much time on your hands calling people names and gettin' pissed off for no reason because they make a negative remark about the Raptors. You don't even know me in person son, 'cause the way I act on this board doesn't reflect the way I act in real life.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> blah blah blah, blah blah blah.


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>open mike</b>!
> ew vince makes me wanna throw up. he disgusts me. what is he thinking right now? im listening to the game on the radio and all i hear is vince passes, vince throws it away.
> 
> what is he doing!!!!!!





> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> Shut up. You shouldn't be making negative comments about the Raptors if you call yourself a "Raptor Fan".


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## macro6 (Jul 23, 2002)

man, we need to pick up another bigman.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

man, drew gooden was a beast out there off the bench.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

This game got me REALLY frustrated.

Donyell, again, playing great basketball for us, almost had a 20/20 game today.

Chris Bosh, good game, had some key rebounds, and put backs.

Alvin Williams had his best game of the year arguably, his shot is awesome.

Then onto the bad points.

They absolutely killed us on the offensive boards. That was just horrible to watch, one offensive rebound after another.

We gave up way too many key turnovers, that killed us too, and we had almost no points off the bench today.

Vince Carter was really frustrating to watch today. Horrible defense today, no determination or passion whatsoever. Was WAY too unselfish, passing up some good looks he could have had, and taking some bad shots he could have passed off, 12 shots? Come on, that was just a flat out bad game. He's had a stretch of bad games, that he's gotten into early foul trouble, dissapears in the 3rd quarter, or sits out, and then comes in the fourth and tries to do all the damage then.


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

I've noticed in a couple of recent games that Vince plays mediocre by passing too much, or shooting off balance shots, and picking up unecessary fouls in the first 3 quarters. 
Then he plays like himself LATE in the 4th quarter.


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> Vince Carter was really frustrating to watch today. Horrible defense today, no determination or passion whatsoever. Was WAY too unselfish, passing up some good looks he could have had, and taking some bad shots he could have passed off, 12 shots? Come on, that was just a flat out bad game. He's had a stretch of bad games, that he's gotten into early foul trouble, dissapears in the 3rd quarter, or sits out, and then comes in the fourth and tries to do all the damage then.


Vince should be taking atleast 21 shots a game, and being less unselfish at the same time. He should be playing at the highest level in ALL quarters. That's the type of Vince Carter I saw throughout all the games I've witnessed.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

KO's post game press conference:
-whole team played very flat
-he's been displeased with the defense for the past few games
-not very good ball movement
-wants the guards to help out in the rebounding department
-hated to see the raps fall into the Magic style of play
-not much effort from the whole team
-happy holidays to the media


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## Goku (Aug 28, 2003)

Vince Carter-1 rebound

Rod Strickland-6
Tyrone Lue-4
Giricek-4


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Goku</b>!
> Vince Carter-1 rebound
> 
> Rod Strickland-6
> ...


a fact that's sadfully true.

KO wants his guards to get 4 or 5 boards apiece


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

*The problem with Vince*

Vince has so much talent but it is obvious he struggles to get up for alot of games.

no emotion
lazy turnovers
passing the ball w/out even sizing up the Defence
No effort until 4th quarter

there is a bad pattern forming with Vince 'don't try until the 4th Q' - but the raps are finding out that you can't do that over the long haul.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

oh yeah, KO also said he's not going to practice with the team til christmas


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

last tidbit, KO expected Rose and/or VC to step up in the game


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> you made the thread in the ORL board about how Magic fans are way better than TOR fans


At least we don't :upset: :starwars: :mrt: :argue: all the time and want to trade our franchise player away:uhoh:


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> 
> 
> At least we don't :upset: :starwars: :mrt: :argue: all the time and want to trade our franchise player away:uhoh:


i hate those bandwagoners too.


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## MrTasty (Jul 5, 2003)

playoffs Playoffs PLAYOFFS!

(that was meant to sound gradually louder)

The Magic are going to the playoffs, hands down.

PS. Glad I didn't watch today


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

i'm glad i didn't watch this disaster.


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MrTasty</b>!
> playoffs Playoffs PLAYOFFS!
> 
> (that was meant to sound gradually louder)
> ...


want to join my signiture club?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> 
> 
> want to join my signiture club?


give me 19 reasons why i should join your club


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## MrTasty (Jul 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> 
> 
> want to join my signiture club?


Hahah, sure. Just let it be noted that I don't like the Magic.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Dammit! I went to this game too.... I CAN'T BELIEVE we lost to such a crappy team! UGH!!! Don't even get me started on how badly Vince played... when you lose to the Magic, you need to change the way you play the game. There's no excuse to lose to the WORST TEAM IN THE LEAGUE! There were countless times that Vince had a clear path to the bucket or a great look and passed it up. It's so frustrating, especially when he only got 3 assists.

And what in the world was KO thinking, taking out a hot Alvin and putting in Milt freakin Palacio? Alvin was on pace for a 25 point night and he should have stayed in the game. That's a big reason why we lost the game.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Budweiser_Boy</b>!
> And what in the world was KO thinking, taking out a hot Alvin and putting in Milt freakin Palacio? Alvin was on pace for a 25 point night and he should have stayed in the game. That's a big reason why we lost the game.


KO stated after the game he put in Milt to pump some energy into the team.


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

Did O'neill tell Vince to play like how he did tonight? I don't get it. Maybe he wants his younger cousin to always be superior to him on purpose?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> Did O'neill tell Vince to play like how he did tonight? I don't get it. Maybe he wants his younger cousin to always be superior to him on purpose?


as said earlier, KO was expecting Rose and/or VC to step up.


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> as said earlier, KO was expecting Rose and/or VC to step up.


Ok


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

No matter how bad Vince plays, the Raptors will make the playoffs since the theres more teams under 500 than teams over.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Vince and Jalen are the engines of this team. As they go, so goes our team.

They need to be leaders. They need to bring a solid effort every night, starting on the defensive end. And they need some discipline on offense as well. Be aggressive but not try wild low percentage passes. Keep it simple.

If they play with passion every night the rest of the team will follow. Right now the other 6 guys in the rotation are playing pretty hard, its our 'leaders' that are not playing hard or smart.

Unfortunately I think something is wrong with Vince. He missed the last practice, with permission, for 'personal reasons'.

He appeared to intentionally pick up quick fouls in both the NY and Orlando games so KO would sit him for most of the first halves.

He had that sad puppy look before the game started. No passion, no rebounding, no aggession, no leadership, no nothing for the entire game. Until we were down 9 with 3 minutes left and he suddenly decides to see if he can score a little. He EASILY puts up 6 quick points, but the game was already over. TOO LATE.

Essentially Vince scored 11 points that actually mattered in this game, took very few shots, and did nothing to keep his team in the game at all. Something is wrong.

Rose played a little D, but continued to show zero improvement with his shooting and decision making since becoming a Rap.

MoP is starting to slide back into that 1 good game, 1 bad game pattern that defines his career. He had been very consistant since the trade until the last 4 or 5 games.

Time for KO to bring some discipline to this team, especially Rose and Carter.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> Vince and Jalen are the engines of this team. As they go, so goes our team.
> 
> They need to be leaders. They need to bring a solid effort every night, starting on the defensive end. And they need some discipline on offense as well. Be aggressive but not try wild low percentage passes. Keep it simple.
> ...


I agree with all of this, especially the suspicion that VC intentionally picked-up quick fouls in the last two games. I'm thinking that he is just down mentally and needs a rest. I'm hoping that, anyways.

I don't think VC will ever be the kind of vocal, spiritual leader that the greats of the game were. But VC can lead by example, and that's what we need of him. We need him to give a total effort on the floor, and when that happens we almost always play great.

As for Jalen, he's still settling-in. Now that we have a chance to run a solid practice before the Utah game, I think we'll see him jacking-it-up less and running the right sets more. Once he's comfortable, expecting 16/4/6 out of him a night is more than reasonable.


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