# and now the good news.......



## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

............................................knicks still(but for how long?) have the rights to their lottery pick this season!



so who do you want OJ or Rose?

might as well start early


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

LMAOOO the sad part Chose, is that this is all we have to look forward to is a lottery pick.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Well, on the bright side, OJ Mayo would cure a multitude of ills.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Please....*

OJ Mayo is a cancer...always will be. Rose can't shoot and isn't Chris Paul. I have no idea who would/should be the pick if its a top five, but it ain't one of them. At this time, Donte Greene at SU might merit some watching. Poor man's Durant, but maybe not so poor.


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## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

Are you kidding me!??!?!? None of you guys have learned your lesson at all! Its like someone spanks you for 6 hours straight and you still do the same stupid thing. OJ Mayo is an Iverson wannabe, he is egotistic to the very core, he is NOT A TRUE PG. He is one of those shoot first PG like Marbury and Iverson. 

Go get Derrick Rose, who excels in driving into the late and hitting shots by using his body or him kicking out the ball to his teammates which is something I haven't seen in a long time. Please please please give me Derrick Rose. I want a Deron Williams type of player not another damn Marbury.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Derrick Rose is not a Deron Williams type player. Never will be, can't shoot to save his life. Mayo isn't a cancer.


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

yea the knicks have their pick because you aren't legally allowed to trade your first rounder in consecutive years.............OJ Mayo's got more baggage than whatever was on the team charter flight this week on the west coast....he's basically what a SG version of marbury would be.......he makes marbury look like he's jason kidd the amount mayo shoots...........derrick rose will at least pass the ball, i wouldnt mind him, gordon, beasley or that french kid batum......NO MAYO


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

You guys should stop reading Draft Express and start watching these kids for yourselves. Your basketball IQ will go up at least ten points.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

OJ mayo appears to have some baggage but alot of players do when they are young and turn out fine , its the GM's job to sort out which are the problem children/malcontents/criminals from the guys who just have made mistakes.

according to team needs bayless seems to be more what the knicks need anyway at pg..or even darren collison ...personally i think they need to move crawford over to pg get a take a playmaking 2 type who can play defense.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*I don't read draft express*

I use my own judgment. I get most of them right. I have watched OJ many times and have come away very unimpressed with his basketball personality. He's a bigger Marbury with a bigger head. Not sure what you are seeing but it says something about YOUR Bball IQ. He'll be a top pick and lead some team to mediocrity.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Well, yes, which is why I think Mayo is a good fit for New York. He's essentially a new and improved Kirk Hinrich, and having him at the 2 makes it easier to use Crawford or Robinson at the 1. The baggage thing is pretty overrated, and DE's canards about "pure, pass-first point guards" being a necessity for a title winner are as false as they've always been (hell, the guy that invented the position chucked up shots at a rate that would turn Antoine Walker green with envy).


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: I don't read draft express*



alphaorange said:


> I use my own judgment. I get most of them right. I have watched OJ many times and have come away very unimpressed with his basketball personality. He's a bigger Marbury with a bigger head. Not sure what you are seeing but it says something about YOUR Bball IQ. He'll be a top pick and lead some team to mediocrity.


With all due respect, I've seen your projections and you do _not_ "get most of them right". I'm also pretty secure in my knowledge of the game, and tend to be overly cautious in projecting forward. You'll never see me using Jongi's and Jonwa's hyperbole (Orien Greene anyone?). They really don't know anymore about the game than anyone else, they simply take the time to watch a lot of basketball, and use that to back their claims of expertise. 

I watched Mayo in high school, if he were as "selfish" as the DE readers like to parrot, he'd have put up far higher averages. That he didn't was a function of the fact that he played on cruise control and that he wasn't obsessed with piling up empty numbers. The PAC-10 will be the first time since 7th grade that he's been tested, so he'll struggle early to adapt to the higher level of play, but by the end of the season he'll be firing on all cylinders. He'll be a fine NBA player. No matter what the "experts" think.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

Chase Budginger... I mean Budinger.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I like Chase, but why would the Knicks need another swingman, don't they already have 28 on the roster?


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

It was a joke. Look at how I spelled the name the first time.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

i wouldnt dog chase, he is an impressive player. quit reading the bs on the net about mayo. the kid has a good chance of turning out good. Tim Floyd is a great coach to get him ready for the league. Floyd did a great job in New Orleans (not the nba team), he did an outstanding job at Iowa State. Floyd had no chance with the Bulls. When you look at what he did with the hornets you have to be impressed, that team was aging and injured. Floyd is a "tough teacher" but not in a end up at Texas Tech kinda way. Floyd will keep Mayo on the straight and narrow.
If you guys have a top 3 pick you need throw team need out the window. Right now you suck and you need a franchise player. Outside of Balkman, Lee, Chandler and your other youth you might as well just trade or waive everyone else and try and save some money. Clean house, put Herb Williams as the head coach and just freakin start over.
Beasley has to prove he can bring it night end and night out. Make sure you watch him this year. Rose may go number one but right now my board is Mayo, Beasley, Rose, Gordon, Green, Jordan, Budinger. Im sure it will change a little by draft night.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

urwhatueati8god said:


> It was a joke. Look at how I spelled the name the first time.


Well, I got the joke, but I thought you might really like him anyway (and don't get me wrong, I love Chase, I think he's going to be a really good NBA player). I'm the first person to crack Mayo jokes, but I still like him as a player and respect his game.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> Well, I got the joke, but I thought you might really like him anyway (and don't get me wrong, I love Chase, I think he's going to be a really good NBA player). I'm the first person to crack Mayo jokes, but I still like him as a player and respect his game.


Don't get me wrong, I am. I think the Knicks have to go with the whole "best player available" logic and that means Budinger or Rose. I actually think that they should take him one overall because the Knicks are going to have to rebuild after this season any way you slice it and he's probably the best place to start.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: I don't read draft express*

Would you mind pointing out the ones I've missed on? Surely after your statement, you'll have no problem recalling.....


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

urwhatueati8god said:


> Don't get me wrong, I am. I think the Knicks have to go with the whole "best player available" logic and that means Budinger or Rose. I actually think that they should take him one overall because the Knicks are going to have to rebuild after this season any way you slice it and he's probably the best place to start.


Possibly, but as a condition they'd have to clear some time for him. Which means moving either Balkman or Chandler and packaging JC Unsuperstar with one of their worse contracts and moving it for an expiring. Ultimately, however, they're probably better off using Crawford & Z-Bo as part of a Bryant pitch.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: I don't read draft express*



alphaorange said:


> Would you mind pointing out the ones I've missed on? Surely after your statement, you'll have no problem recalling.....


How about your most recent, Demitrus Nichols Superstar. Nice kid, Maybe an NBA journeyman one day. NBA rotation player? No.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Come on, man*

Find one post where I said "star", no less "superstar". I said he furnished something which is in short supply on this team....defensive length and effort at the 2 and 3 (mostly 2) and long distance shooting. Either you don't read well or you couldn't be bothered to look it up. I took exception to those that said he wasn't an NBA caliber player. Is he better than JC? Nope. not now, but he would be a better fit as he is a deadly shooter with size, and he'll play defense. In this vein, I also got Watkins right. Quiz tomorrow.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*This team is so flawed*

There really isn't a single position that we are set at. Randolph would be a real keeper if he was any kind of a defender. Curry doesn't defend or rebound, Crawford is inconsistent and a very poor defender. Nate has improved but is a terrible defender, which is inexplicable given his physical talent. No real PG on this team. No true SF. Lee is the closest to being complete as he lacks only a jumpshot. Any player taken in the top 5 HAS to be a real starter, eventually, and hopefully a star.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: Come on, man*



alphaorange said:


> Find one post where I said "star", no less "superstar". I said he furnished something which is in short supply on this team....defensive length and effort at the 2 and 3 (mostly 2) and long distance shooting. Either you don't read well or you couldn't be bothered to look it up. I took exception to those that said he wasn't an NBA caliber player. Is he better than JC? Nope. not now, but he would be a better fit as he is a deadly shooter with size, and he'll play defense.


What NBA team is he on again?


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Come on, man*

I believe that would be the Cavs...unless they cut him and I didn't see it.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

And who is the second worst swingman on the Cavs again? (Given that Demitrus Nichols Superstar is watching the games in his civvies, we can ID him as the worst.)


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

If you're trying to make your point with sarcasm, stick to your suedo-humorous one line cracks. As I said...Never did I write that he was a star, superstar, or starter. I said he was a player we could use and should have kept. Nice job of NOT proving your point.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

My capitalisation of the word "Superstar" should tell you that my meaning might be something else (in fact, it's something I do with all scrubby players that fanboys crush on for whatever reason). You're pretty much the same as 99% of basketball fans, you allow your subjective feelings for players to colour your observations of them. Hence O.J. Mayo, who has pretty much nothing in common with Stephon Marbury, becomes "another Marbury" solely because you hate both players. I hate Kobe Bryant, but I can still objectively break down his game and give him his due. You, on the other hand, won't give anyone their due unless you like them. That doesn't make you any different than the overwhelming majority of fans, but you should stop pretending that your subjective desires have any influence on reality.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

#1) I never compared him to Marbury, another poster did
#2) I never said Dnic was anything other than a player that the Knicks could use to correct some deficiencies. Still true.
#3) I watched Mayo in multiple all-star games. Self-centered. And before you give some spiel about the typical all star game format, I have seen lots of great players go through those games without being a hog. He wasn't one of them, and in fact, wasn't even good in most of them.
#4) OJ was in well publicized fights in HS and has already been in one with one of his teammates at USC. 

I'll stand by my comments and again challenge you to find my erroneous evaluation of players. At the least you could back up your claim that I said Dnic would be more than I just have posted. Your whole post is garbage in that you argue against a POV that was never given. Try responding to what was actually posted....not what you think you remember.

He is Lebron without the talent and with a much bigger ego. I'll stand by every statement. I also don't develop crushes.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

alphaorange said:


> #1) I never compared him to Marbury, another poster did





alphaorange said:


> He's a bigger Marbury with a bigger head.














alphaorange said:


> #2) I never said Dnic was anything other than a player that the Knicks could use to correct some deficiencies. Still true.


The fact that he can't beat out Ira Newble, one of the worst players in the NBA, for playing time should tell you something about Demitrus Nichols Superstar.



alphaorange said:


> I also don't develop crushes.


Sure you don't. You just keep telling yourself that.


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

alphaorange said:


> #1) I never compared him to Marbury, another poster did
> #2) I never said Dnic was anything other than a player that the Knicks could use to correct some deficiencies. Still true.
> #3) *I watched Mayo in multiple all-star games.* Self-centered. And before you give some spiel about the typical all star game format, I have seen lots of great players go through those games without being a hog. He wasn't one of them, and in fact, wasn't even good in most of them.
> #4) OJ was in well publicized fights in HS and has already been in one with one of his teammates at USC.



Allstar games..... oh OK. i guess that could be considered a game....


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

ChosenFEW said:


> Allstar games..... oh OK. i guess that could be considered a game....


They're the best way to judge a players "cancer" potential. I mean, look how great J.R. Smith looked in the McDonalds game. And look how dominant he's been on the NBA level, :yay:


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

Still never backed up your original statement....nice dancing. Don't bother posting back on this subject unless you intend on backing up your claims.


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

ChosenFEW said:


> Allstar games..... oh OK. i guess that could be considered a game....


didnt mayo have an open 3 to win one of the all star games at the buzzer nad he choked............look at the USC games, that's typical mayo......he puts up the most shots........gets 29 pts, but they wont win cause hackett or whoever the guy is, puts in 20+ points 10 boards, 10 assists.....a triple double......Mayo's press team must've lit him up after the game...........i'm not denying he doesnt have skill, he's just not going to be a team player at all........he'll be another talented player who doesnt "get it"


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

alphaorange said:


> Still never backed up your original statement....nice dancing. Don't bother posting back on this subject unless you intend on backing up your claims.


Nice dancing? You mean pointing out your glaring flaw as a talent evaluator, illustrating it in action in your own words, and then pointing to the specific quote after your denial? In the last year I've heard you tell us all that Channing Frye was going to be better than whoever Phoenix drafted with Atnalta's first round pick (which is theoretically possible, the Suns could draft a bust of even bigger proportions), that Josh Smith would never be able to play the 4 in the NBA (boy, were you right on that








), that Josh Childress was "a shorter Jeffries" (again, two players that have almost nothing in common, aside from your dislike of them), and compared Danny Fortson to Elton Brand (







). Two other players with nothing in common, except your fanboy crush on Fortson. Though, in fairness, I suppose you could say that if we took away EB's skills, hoops IQ, and an inch of height we'd definitely have Danny Fortson. :lol:


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

knickstorm said:


> didnt mayo have an open 3 to win one of the all star games at the buzzer nad he choked............look at the USC games, that's typical mayo......he puts up the most shots........gets 29 pts, but they wont win cause hackett or whoever the guy is, puts in 20+ points 10 boards, 10 assists.....a triple double......Mayo's press team must've lit him up after the game...........i'm not denying he doesnt have skill, he's just not going to be a team player at all........he'll be another talented player who doesnt "get it"


So you're telling us that Durant "will never _get it_"? (Whatever the **** "it" is, no one seems to be able to define "it".)


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> So you're telling us that Durant "will never _get it_"? (Whatever the **** "it" is, no one seems to be able to define "it".)


kevin durant didnt send some intermediary to Texas telling them he'd come to their school only because he could get the most media attention, be the star there because they dont have any other stars...and basically force the school to take on a hs teammate of his..........kevin durant didnt have a press team/entourage that came along with him to texas.........."it" is a lotta things, ie baggage, inability to put the demands of the team over your own.............Kevin Durant isnt billed as PG either so i dont care that he shot the ball like crazy in college, plus he was a monster on the boards......but Mayo is supposed to be running the point. Durant is a coach's dream, low maintenence, attentive, non-combative..........Mayo is exactly the opposite........even the HS refs couldnt stand this kid.......


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Dig up the post......*

......where I said that Frye would be better than anyone the Suns drafted with that pick. Won't happen cuz I never said it. The only shred of any truth in your whole post is about Josh Smith. I still don't see him as a pF. Sure he can play there but he is being outplayed by his opponents, despite scoring more. You're absolutely full of crap. So the one thing you can come up with is questionable and the others you made up stuff. You're a loser. I expected more from a mod. I guess when you can't use facts, use your imagination. 

Hint...check 82games.com to see how Smith is doing compared to his opponents.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

Perhaps you could reference the post directly that you quoted me on? Bring it in here as a quote so I can eat crow. What? Can't find it? What a surprise. I am, however, ready for one of your clever quick hitters. You know...like the one where you say.."He's certainly big enough to be an anchor".. That was a real rib tickler. See how that quote thingy works? You find the statement, put those funny marks at the beginning and end, and you have a quote. Note....it must be something actually said. Otherwise it's just paraphrasing or a lie...which is worthless.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

alphaorange said:


> ......where I said that Frye would be better than anyone the Suns drafted with that pick. Won't happen cuz I never said it. The only shred of any truth in your whole post is about Josh Smith. I still don't see him as a pF. Sure he can play there but he is being outplayed by his opponents, despite scoring more. You're absolutely full of crap. So the one thing you can come up with is questionable and the others you made up stuff. You're a loser. I expected more from a mod. I guess when you can't use facts, use your imagination. ...
> 
> Perhaps you could reference the post directly that you quoted me on? Bring it in here as a quote so I can eat crow. What? Can't find it? What a surprise. I am, however, ready for one of your clever quick hitters. You know...like the one where you say.."He's certainly big enough to be an anchor".. That was a real rib tickler. See how that quote thingy works? You find the statement, put those funny marks at the beginning and end, and you have a quote. Note....it must be something actually said. Otherwise it's just paraphrasing or a lie...which is worthless.


Well, I _did_ directly reference the quote in _this thread_ where you compared two players that you hate with nothing in common but your hatred of them, _after_ you denied making such a statement. So, in fact, I think I _did_ produce the evidence. As for your denials of some of your past bloomers, here's just a quick sample using the site's search function:



alphaorange said:


> ... I qualified by saying the player must have a decent offensive game to begin with. You know this but ignored it for your case. Secondly, Brands game is all around...in and out. Curry's is strictly inside, like Fortsons (see the comparison?). Brand also has a 7'+ wingspan. W/O the span and the jumper he is Fortson





alphaorange said:


> Childress is a lot like Jeffries with an occasional jumper.





alphaorange said:


> Childress= off the bench= smaller version of JJeffries





alphaorange said:


> Why in the hell do you make that trade? Kurt is at the end of his career, Jones is a bit player. You are saying Kurt and Jones for Frye and Rose.....and the opportunity to pick as high as 4 and as low as 14th instead of 20 or so? Rose ans Kurt are similar in value but Frye is worth far more than Jones and the jump in picks, Good thing you're not the GM. If Oden and the Texas Tornado stay in school (and indications are they just might...they love it), then the draft becomes very ordinary where the Knicks would be picking at the BEST spot.





alphaorange said:


> I know you have real desire to obtain the Josh brothers but you are not really improving the team. Smith is an offensive step down from Frye and a step down from Lee in multiple categories. Childress is a HUGE offensive step down from Qrich, not to mention no better on defense.


That's a random sample generated in about ten minutes work. I suppose I could find a whole lot more if I wanted to waste the time.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Reading comprehension, my friend*

Really not worth responding to. Taking snippets out of context to prove a point. Without reading the whole argument the small pieces you picked mean nothing. That "Fortson" quote was part of a discussion about how Curry was not a guy you could build a team around. I said that if he played against other players his size, he would score more. So you thing Curry is a "franchise" player? If yes, tells me a lot about your analytical skills. If no, you are agreeing with me. I'll stick with the other stuff in the context it was posted.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: Reading comprehension, my friend*



alphaorange said:


> Really not worth responding to. Taking snippets out of context to prove a point. Without reading the whole argument the small pieces you picked mean nothing. That "Fortson" quote was part of a discussion about how Curry was not a guy you could build a team around. I said that if he played against other players his size, he would score more. So you thing Curry is a "franchise" player? If yes, tells me a lot about your analytical skills. If no, you are agreeing with me. I'll stick with the other stuff in the context it was posted.


What does Curry have to do with your claim that Fortson was comparable to Elton Brand? Eddy Curry isn't even germane to your claim. Your use of it here to change the simple meaning of your words is a not terribly clever attempt to weasel off the hook. But it isn't working. I think I've more than amply shown how your subjective likes/dislikes colour your perceptions.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Re: Reading comprehension, my friend*

my last response on this thread. Stop acting like you're such a smug jerk. If you can't be bothered to read the entire discussion, you shouldn't bother to comment on it. That quote that you say I was weaseling out of was banter between Twinkiefoot and myself. It was about Curry. Fortson was brought into it to prove a point about scoring prowess inside being an issue of height or skill. If you read it all, you'd know it.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> Well, I _did_ directly reference the quote in _this thread_ where you compared two players that you hate with nothing in common but your hatred of them, _after_ you denied making such a statement. So, in fact, I think I _did_ produce the evidence. As for your denials of some of your past bloomers, here's just a quick sample using the site's search function:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You really have too much time on your hands. Everyone has had their share of misfires over the years, especially for a frequent poster with over a thousand posts.

People around here rarely knows every player well, and I honestly doubt that you do yourself, but I don't have the time or interest to go through your posts. What he said could very well be caused by his lack of understanding of certain players, not necessarily being caused by his "hatred" for certain players. In that sense, you haven't proved much beyond that he doesn't watch every team in the NBA on a regular basis, just like the majority of us.



> Your use of it here to change the simple meaning of your words is a not terribly clever attempt to weasel off the hook. But it isn't working. I think I've more than amply shown how your subjective likes/dislikes colour your perceptions.


If you think you've done that, why do you keep taunting him then? To make him look like an idiot? Seriously, grow up.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> You really have too much time on your hands. Everyone has had their share of misfires over the years, especially for a frequent poster with over a thousand posts.


I wasn't the one that claimed to be nigh on infallible, was I? And if you consider ten minutes too much time, you must be busier than I can conceive of. :cheers:



seifer0406 said:


> People around here rarely knows every player well, and I honestly doubt that you do yourself


I never claimed to. The extent of my claim was that I am fully capable of separating my feelings for players from my evaluation of their games.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> I wasn't the one that claimed to be nigh on infallible, was I? And if you consider ten minutes too much time, you must be busier than I can conceive of. :cheers:


I thought your claim was that his views on players are tilted because of his hatred towards certain players. I honestly don't see where you proved that, but as long as you think so, that's good enough for our purpose. 




ehmunro said:


> I never claimed to. The extent of my claim was that I am fully capable of separating my feelings for players from my evaluation of their games.


See above.

And frankly, some of those posts you listed aren't even that ridiculous. Take the Fyre/Rose for Jones/Thomas swap picks for example, it turned out that the Knicks did find better value in Fyre by getting Randolph and unloading Francis at the same time. I don't see where the ridicule is located in this one, perhaps you can point it out more clearly.

Also the players on the Knicks roster often under-perform because of the various problems associated with the team. If Josh Smith and Childress were on the Knicks the past few seasons, god knows what kind of players they would become. The same thing can be said about Channing Fyre and Quentin Richardson. In Richardson's case, he was so effective in Phoenix and LA, and his career plummeted after he came to NY. Injuries had a lot to do with it, but the distractions and team atmosphere in NY aren't necessarily helping either. I am not saying that Josh Smith and Josh Childress won't thrive in NY, but if I'm betting on a new team that those 2 would succeed in, NY would probably be my last or 2nd to last choice.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> I thought your claim was that his views on players are tilted because of his hatred towards certain players. I honestly don't see where you proved that, but as long as you think so, that's good enough for our purpose.


Well, that was my claim, made after his statements of evaluative expertise. Here are his exact words...



alphaorange said:


> I use my own judgment. I get most of them right.


It's been my experience here that he doesn't get anything close to "most of them right". I've read chuckler after chuckler from him. He usually resorts to his "I've been coaching this game for years and know more than you so just shut up!" argument. As for my claim about his subjective likes colouring his perceptions, you can see the repeated player comps between players that have nothing in common except his like or dislike. I pulled up a bunch of them in ten minutes of work. (Mostly because I'd remembered the original mentions as they struck me so funny at the time). When I see repeated comps of dissimilar players there's a problem, when the one similarity is someone's like/dislike of the players, it's certainly fair to note that, and assume that this is the cause. You can tell me that there's some other reason for this bizarre coincidence, but I prefer the simpler theory. 



seifer0406 said:


> And frankly, some of those posts you listed aren't even that ridiculous. Take the Fyre/Rose for Jones/Thomas swap picks for example, it turned out that the Knicks did find better value in Fyre by getting Randolph and unloading Francis at the same time. I don't see where the ridicule is located in this one, perhaps you can point it out more clearly.


The only reason Frye is playing in Portland, at all, is Oden's injury. Portland was unloading Randolph, and New York could have had him for other players. David Lee would have done just as well. Hell, Renaldo Balkman would have been enough to get the deal done. The Blazers just wanted rid of Z-Bo. So, um, yeah, if the choice is between Z-Bo and a mid-lottery pick, or Z-Bo, then the first wins every single time. Neither is this defense germane to AO's claim. 



seifer0406 said:


> Also the players on the Knicks roster often under-perform because of the various problems associated with the team. If Josh Smith and Childress were on the Knicks the past few seasons, god knows what kind of players they would become. The same thing can be said about Channing Fyre and Quentin Richardson. In Richardson's case, he was so effective in Phoenix and LA, and his career plummeted after he came to NY. Injuries had a lot to do with it, but the distractions and team atmosphere in NY aren't necessarily helping either. I am not saying that Josh Smith and Josh Childress won't thrive in NY, but if I'm betting on a new team that those 2 would succeed in, NY would probably be my last or 2nd to last choice.


I'm pretty sure that the "atmosphere of NY" has nothing to do with the way Q-Rich hobbles around the court. Richardson was certainly kind of effective in his contract year (and not really as much as you're implying), he was so effective in Phoenix that they unloaded him at the first possible opportunity. _And none of this is germane to either my observations about AO's evaluative tendencies nor his defense_ (which amounts to "I don't care if I said it, I didn't mean what I wrote that way"). Who gives a **** how players may or may not turn in New York? It wasn't part of his game comps. And it shouldn't be. So my point stands. :cheers:


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> The only reason Frye is playing in Portland, at all, is Oden's injury. Portland was unloading Randolph, and New York could have had him for other players. David Lee would have done just as well. Hell, Renaldo Balkman would have been enough to get the deal done. Neither is this defense germane to AO's claim.


That is only your speculation, it really doesn't strengthen your argument in any way. If I'm not mistaken, David Lee at the time was worth about the same if not more than Fyre as Lee averaged a double double. If that's the case, I don't understand how trading Lee for Randolph is a better deal than trading Fyre for Randolph. Show me some proof about Balkman for Randolph, if not, just keep that to yourself. 



> The Blazers just wanted rid of Z-Bo. So, um, yeah, if the choice is between Z-Bo and a mid-lottery pick, or Z-Bo, then the first wins every single time.


Actually no, think about what you're comparing here. You're saying you rather trade David Lee for Z-Bo, and do the Fyre/pick switch thing? The choice is more like David Lee/Fyre, for Z-Bo and higher pick vs. Fyre for Z-bo, keep David Lee and lower pick. Tough choice here, I probably go with Z-Bo an David Lee rather than a mid lottery pick like Noah or Wright, or one of those swingman in that area. Also they are 2 separate trades. If Fyre is gone and Portland wasn't interested in Lee, you might just end up with a higher lottery pick and Lee and no Randolph.

About Fyre getting playtime in Portland. I think it's obvious that they planned to have him in the rotation from the start regardless of Oden injury. If you look at their roster, behind Oden and Aldrige, they only have Prizbilla as the backup 5, and no legitimate PF/C behind him. LaFrentz is an injury waiting to happen, Prizbilla isn't iron man himself. I don't see how it would be impossible for Fyre to get playtime there, even with Oden healthy. The Blazers aren't happy with Fyre's body right now as the Knicks made him bulk up too much while he was in NY, an example to how NY mistreats their talents. Blazers coaching staff thinks that Fyre would be more effective if he's slimmer, thus he is in the process of transforming his body and playing style.




> I'm pretty sure that the "atmosphere of NY" has nothing to do with the way Q-Rich hobbles around the court. Richardson was certainly kind of effective in his contract year (and not really as much as you're implying), he was so effective in Phoenix that they unloaded him at the first possible opportunity.


Phoenix is notorious for their salary-cutting, they unload players in order to avoid luxury tax rather than improving their team. Kurt Thomas was effective for them last season in the playoffs, and they just gave him away along with picks, does that mean that the Suns are better off as a team without Thomas? There is no doubt that Richardson would have had a better career in Phoenix playing with Steve Nash than in NY with Marbury and under the soap opera that is Isiah Thomas. Injuries did screw him up, but the fact still stands that pretty much no player became better than they were before after they joined the Knicks in quite some time.

This really does seem off topic, but I'm just saying that some of the stuff that he said, at least the ones you listed, aren't all that ridiculous. If you really have that much time on your hand, go back in there and find a few that are truly off the mark.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> That is only your speculation, it really doesn't strengthen your argument in any way.


Is your opinion that a healthy Oden would be sitting so that Frye could get those 12-15 m/g? If so you must be seeing something in Frye that no one else in the NBA does.



seifer0406 said:


> Show me some proof about Balkman for Randolph, if not, just keep that to yourself.


Did you miss all the stories about Portland wanting to unload Randolph that were appearing about five minutes after the lottery finished? If you follow the NBA _that little_ why are you even here?



seifer0406 said:


> Actually no, think about what you're comparing here.


I'm not comparing anything here. I understand that you've taken on the hopeless task of defending alphaorange (why I don't know), and so you're dancing as fast as you can and throwing up as much smoke as you can to change the subject. But it isn't working. His claim was as silly then as it is now. No matter how many times you shout, "Look!!! A pony!!!" no one's looking. Sorry.



seifer0406 said:


> About Fyre getting playtime in Portland. I think it's obvious that they planned to have him in the rotation from the start regardless of Oden injury. If you look at their roster, behind Oden and Aldrige, they only have Prizbilla as the backup 5, and no legitimate PF/C behind him.


I'd say that the also injured Joshy was in their future plans. And that there just isn't going to be a lot of room for Frye. Who knows, maybe he'll turn into an end of the rotation player at his next stop. I doubt you'll see Portland spring the money to sign an extra body unless Oden's injury proves to be more serious than we've all been led to believe. With yet another lottery pick coming I'd say that the Channing Frye era in Portland is just about over.



seifer0406 said:


> Phoenix is notorious for their salary-cutting, they unload players in order to avoid luxury tax rather than improving their team. Kurt Thomas was effective for them last season in the playoffs, and they just gave him away along with picks, does that mean that the Suns are better off as a team without Thomas? There is no doubt that Richardson would have had a better career in Phoenix playing with Steve Nash than in NY with Marbury and under the soap opera that is Isiah Thomas.


I suppose then you'd be surprised to learn that Richardson is actually playing more efficiently with the Knicks and the "selfish Marbury" and the "soap opera that is Isiah Thomas" than he did in Phoenix with the "awesome, unselfish, pure, pass-first" Steve Nash? Of course, in Phoenix he fired up more shots, which inflated his numbers. But in New York he's shooting better and scoring more efficiently. Of course, he's also managed to play about 100 games in the last two seasons, so I'd say that the injuries just might have _a little more to do_ with his hobbling around the court than Isiah, Stephon, and "the atmosphere in New York".


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> Is your opinion that a healthy Oden would be sitting so that Frye could get those 12-15 m/g? If so you must be seeing something in Frye that no one else in the NBA does.


I never knew NBA plays 3 on 3 basketball. You have Oden and Aldridge starting at C and PF, and you have Prizbilla as your only backup C/PF. Unless you're implying that the Blazers wanted both Oden and Aldridge to play 40+ min a game, there is a need for a backup pf/c somewhere. Prizbilla also only averaged 1.6 bpg (his supposed purpose in the NBA) and under 4 rebounds in 43 games. They are counting on him as their only option? 

Did you say McRoberts? Are you just pulling out random 2nd rounders that haven't proved a thing in the NBA and placing him over Frye? Quite objective analysis skills you're presenting here. It's funny that you mentioned hatred for players, because I'm beginning to think that theres something going on between you and Frye. 



ehmunro said:


> Did you miss all the stories about Portland wanting to unload Randolph that were appearing about five minutes after the lottery finished? If you follow the NBA _that little_ why are you even here?


Just because there are rumors about a team wanting to unload a player doesn't mean that you can throw any player in there and say that he would've made a better deal for NY. I mean, why stop there, forget Balkman, why didn't NY get Randolph for Jerome James?





ehmunro said:


> I'm not comparing anything here. I understand that you've taken on the hopeless task of defending alphaorange (why I don't know), and so you're dancing as fast as you can and throwing up as much smoke as you can to change the subject. But it isn't working. His claim was as silly then as it is now. No matter how many times you shout, "Look!!! A pony!!!" no one's looking. Sorry.





ehmunro said:


> The Blazers just wanted rid of Z-Bo. So, um, yeah, if the choice is between Z-Bo and a mid-lottery pick, or Z-Bo, then the first wins every single time.


Looks like somebody doesn't know what the hell he's typing. It's alright though, it didn't start here.




ehmunro said:


> I suppose then you'd be surprised to learn that Richardson is actually playing more efficiently with the Knicks and the "selfish Marbury" and the "soap opera that is Isiah Thomas" than he did in Phoenix with the "awesome, unselfish, pure, pass-first" Steve Nash? Of course, in Phoenix he fired up more shots, which inflated his numbers. But in New York he's shooting better and scoring more efficiently. Of course, he's also managed to play about 100 games in the last two seasons, so I'd say that the injuries just might have _a little more to do_ with his hobbling around the court than Isiah, Stephon, and "the atmosphere in New York".


It's not really my point, but do provide some concrete proof about Richardson being a better player in NY than he was in Phoenix and LA. He's still shooting about the same FG% the past few seasons, about the same FT attempts, and pretty much the same stats across the board. Not to mention he is having a slow start this season. Anyway, this wasn't the point as I said that his injury has a lot to do with his dwindling career and there are plenty of examples around him. Just name one player that has gotten better (in a indisputable manner) since being traded or signed by the Knicks in the Isiah era. Pardon my knowledge of the Knicks, but Eddy Curry is probably the closest thing to what I'm looking for here and he's still far from being a player that you can win games with. I honestly don't know why you arguing with me about this point, if theres nothing wrong with the basketball environment of the current Knicks, then why are there so many people want their coach/GM fired and go into complete rebuild?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> I never knew NBA plays 3 on 3 basketball. You have Oden and Aldridge starting at C and PF, and you have Prizbilla as your only backup C/PF. Unless you're implying that the Blazers wanted both Oden and Aldridge to play 40+ min a game, there is a need for a backup pf/c somewhere. Prizbilla also only averaged 1.6 bpg (his supposed purpose in the NBA) and under 4 rebounds in 43 games. They are counting on him as their only option?
> 
> Did you say McRoberts? Are you just pulling out random 2nd rounders that haven't proved a thing in the NBA and placing him over Frye? Quite objective analysis skills you're presenting here. It's funny that you mentioned hatred for players, because I'm beginning to think that theres something going on between you and Frye.


Random second rounder? You do realise that he's Oden's BFF, right? No matter how bad he is he isn't going anywhere till Oden's john hancock is on a five year extension. With a backup center, a starting center, a starting power forward, two backup power forwards, and yet another lottery pick coming, there's going to be a numbers game in Portland. Unless Oden's injury is more serious than we've been told, Frye will be losing the numbers game. Sorry, that's just the way it is.



seifer0406 said:


> Just because there are rumors about a team wanting to unload a player doesn't mean that you can throw any player in there and say that he would've made a better deal for NY. I mean, why stop there, forget Balkman, why didn't NY get Randolph for Jerome James?


Maybe because The Texas Double Whopper would have devoured the cash savings in swapping Z-Bo for Francis? (Both literally and figuratively, there's some good eatins on a ben franklin.) The rule of thumb is that when you're trading a troubled player with a hideous contract that the best you can expect is someone with a shorter deal, which is what Portland got. Swapping Z-Bo for Franchise saved the Blazers about $30 million in green. If New York had an expiring deal to trade, they probably could have got a draft pick back for eating Randolph's contract. They didn't _need_ to send Frye to complete the deal. Much like Portland didn't really need to trade Telfair last year to get Roy. The 'Blazers were just looking to offload a lottery bust in that trade. Just as New York did in the Randolph deal. _And this remains irrelevant to alphaorange's claim_.



seifer0406 said:


> Looks like somebody doesn't know what the hell he's typing. It's alright though, it didn't start here.


No, you started several posts back. Why, no one knows. But at this point you've typed about 108,000 words in defense of alphaorange and have yet to actually defend any of his laughers or give your alternate theory as to why he keeps comping players with zilch in common except his like/dislike? Since you're obviously going to subject us to another quarter million words before this is over, could you please tell us whether during those quarter million words you're going to make _any_ attempt to justify his rather laughable claims? 



seifer0406 said:


> It's not really my point, but do provide some concrete proof about Richardson being a better player in NY than he was in Phoenix and LA. He's still shooting about the same FG% the past few seasons, about the same FT attempts, and pretty much the same stats across the board.


So, wait, two posts ago he was outstanding in LA and Phoenix and collapsed in New York, because of Isiah and Stephon, but most decidedly not because of all the injuries, but now he has "the same stats across the board"? So if his stats are exactly the same (which they aren't), what has made him a washout in new York? Oh yeah, that'd be the injuries that have him hobbling around the court. During his "breakout" year in LA, his aFG% was .454 and his PP/FGA number .968, in Phoenix that went up to .498/1.044 and in the "atmosphere of New York" last season it was up to .507/1.064. So, um, yeah, in the three ring circus he shot better and scored more efficiently, just like I told you. His stats were also _down_ across the board as he was firing up fewer shots than he did in Phoenix.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> Random second rounder? You do realise that he's Oden's BFF, right? No matter how bad he is he isn't going anywhere till Oden's john hancock is on a five year extension. With a backup center, a starting center, a starting power forward, two backup power forwards, and yet another lottery pick coming, there's going to be a numbers game in Portland. Unless Oden's injury is more serious than we've been told, Frye will be losing the numbers game. Sorry, that's just the way it is.


This doesn't prove a thing about McRoberts being a legitimate backup for the Blazers. *He is a 2nd rounder that hasn't proved a thing in the NBA*, teams don't trust these people with key rotation spots,*edit*

Did you miss the part about Prizbilla's averages last year and that he only played 43 games? Obviously not, because if you had the mental capacity to recognize that, you would've recognized another injury-prone backup in Raef Lafrentz who haven't been healthy since god knows when. So you have Oden and Aldridge as starters, with backup of *Prizbilla, Lafrentz, McRoberts*. Yeah, if I'm the GM, I sleep easy at night knowing I have a durable front court with no help needed. Did I mention Aldridge had his injuries woes last year as well? Lastly, lottery pick means it's coming *next* season, they still need someone to get them through this one. If Frye manage to put up solid numbers, which I don't know why you give him no chance for considering he's only what, 26? I don't see why he has 0 chance of being in Blazers rotation next year.





ehmunro said:


> Maybe because The Texas Double Whopper would have devoured the cash savings in swapping Z-Bo for Francis? (Both literally and figuratively, there's some good eatins on a ben franklin.)


Still doesn't explain why you can just stick random players in there and said that they could've gotten the deal done with so and so. If you haven't noticed, I used James as an example because the trade wouldn't work with him, just like how Balkman probably would not work either.




ehmunro said:


> So, wait, two posts ago he was outstanding in LA and Phoenix and collapsed in New York, because of Isiah and Stephon, but most decidedly not because of all the injuries, but now he has "the same stats across the board"?


I believe I said



> In Richardson's case, he was so effective in Phoenix and LA, and his career plummeted after he came to NY. Injuries had *a lot* to do with it, but the distractions and team atmosphere in NY aren't necessarily helping either.


a lot means majority, *edit*.

And his career did plummet after he moved to NY. A lot has to do with injuries, but Isiah Thomas isn't helping him as a coach. *(I'm repeating myself because I sincerely believe that if I keep shouting insults at a moderator that people will think I'm wicked smart and not a flaming dipsnorkel)* In his first year in NY he struggled, he got a bit better in the 2nd year, and this year he seems to be headed for a bad season. His other numbers did stay pretty much the same across the board, the rebounds, assists, etc.

Richardson was a bad example though because he was hurt. My original statement was that players don't get better playing in NY, and perhaps I should've used someone other than Q Rich to support that claim.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> No, you started several posts back. Why, no one knows. But at this point you've typed about 108,000 words in defense of alphaorange and have yet to actually defend any of his laughers or give your alternate theory as to why he keeps comping players with zilch in common except his like/dislike? Since you're obviously going to subject us to another quarter million words before this is over, could you please tell us whether during those quarter million words you're going to make any attempt to justify his rather laughable claims?


You were the one that started ridiculing another poster. I simply said that some of his posts weren't that ridiculous. A page later, you still haven't proved a thing which is rather odd because if they were that ridiculous, I'd figure you would have had a easier time.

It's a very simple discussion, and honestly I'm not even defending anybody. You posted something on a forum that's wrong, and someone called you out for it, that's all.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> You were the one that started ridiculing another poster.


Actually, I rather politely pointed out to him that in my experience his talent evaluations were coloured by personal likes/dislikes. This I amply demonstrated by pulling a half a dozen examples of his claiming dissimilar players were alike, when all they had in common were his feelings for them. I openly laughed at his denial of the Marbury/Mayo comp, _because he'd done it just a few posts previously_.



seifer0406 said:


> I simply said that some of his posts weren't that ridiculous. A page later, you still haven't proved a thing which is rather odd because if they were that ridiculous, I'd figure you would have had a easier time.


Why is it up to _me_ to disprove that Childress and Jeffries are the same player? They have very little in common as players, as Jeffries isn't even a good garbageman. Why do I have to disprove a claim that Josh Smith can never be an NBA 4? In fact he already does it. The only thing he really needs to be successful at it is an effective jumper (so that his defenders can't sag off him). He'd be a better power 3, but the need for the reliable jumper would still stand. Why do I have to disprove that Danny Fortson is the exact same player as Elton Brand? One of those two guys is a highly skilled and very intelligent player, and it ain't Danny Fortson. These were all laughable claims when he made them last year, they're laughable now. If you want to defend them, fine. But do it and stop with the Irish jig.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> This doesn't prove a thing about McRoberts being a legitimate backup for the Blazers. *He is a 2nd rounder that hasn't proved a thing in the NBA*, teams don't trust these people with key rotation spots,*edit*
> 
> Did you miss the part about Prizbilla's averages last year and that he only played 43 games? Obviously not, because if you had the mental capacity to recognize that, you would've recognized another injury-prone backup in Raef Lafrentz who haven't been healthy since god knows when. So you have Oden and Aldridge as starters, with backup of *Prizbilla, Lafrentz, McRoberts*. Yeah, if I'm the GM, I sleep easy at night knowing I have a durable front court with no help needed. Did I mention Aldridge had his injuries woes last year as well? Lastly, lottery pick means it's coming *next* season, they still need someone to get them through this one. If Frye manage to put up solid numbers, which I don't know why you give him no chance for considering he's only what, 26? I don't see why he has 0 chance of being in Blazers rotation next year.


So, at the end of your rant, you concede that he's probably going to end up losing the numbers game in Portland? Thanks for finally admitting that the Blazers weren't desperate for Frye and were making a costcutting/clearcutting move, similar to the one that the Celtics made with the Blazers in 2006. Just as your team was the beneficiary of Boston's desire to cut costs in the Roy deal, New York was the beneficiary in Portland's "Let's get Z-Bo out of town before he drags Oden down and the two of them get arrested in a hotel suite with four stippers and a bag of drugs" mission.



seifer0406 said:


> Still doesn't explain why you can just stick random players in there and said that they could've gotten the deal done with so and so. If you haven't noticed, I used James as an example because the trade wouldn't work with him, just like how Balkman probably would not work either.


The reason the trade wouldn't work with James is that Portland wouldn't get the one benefit they were looking for. They didn't want to buy out Z-Bo, who was owed nearly $62 million. Having to buy out Franchise and the Texas Double Whopper would put them in the position of having to buy out two players making nearly as much as the guy they were trying to get rid of. New York chose to unload a lottery bust in the trade (feeling, and rightly so, that he'd get no time in New York with Curry, Z-Bo, David Lee, Malik Rose and Randolph Morris on the roster). See, what I am telling you, and you don't seem to comprehend, is that the lack of Channing Frye wouldn't have been an impediment to the Z-Bo trade. New York had any number of players to trade, and even a late first round pick. Frye was a throw in. New York basically valued Wilson Chandler over him (and I really don't blame them). So, yes, if they'd been able to get the Atnalta #1 for Channing Frye they'd be in a much better position as a franchise at year's end than they'll otherwise be. Put yet another way, since the point seems to escape you, alphaorange's claim is as wrong now as it was when he made it.



seifer0406 said:


> And his career did plummet after he moved to NY. A lot has to do with injuries, but Isiah Thomas isn't helping him as a coach. *(I'm repeating myself because I sincerely believe that if I keep shouting insults at a moderator that people will think I'm wicked smart and not a flaming dipsnorkel)* In his first year in NY he struggled, he got a bit better in the 2nd year, and this year he seems to be headed for a bad season. His other numbers did stay pretty much the same across the board, the rebounds, assists, etc.
> 
> Richardson was a bad example though because he was hurt. My original statement was that players don't get better playing in NY, and perhaps I should've used someone other than Q Rich to support that claim.


Well, yes, if you were trying to prove that Isiah and Stephon will make anyone the Knicks trade for worse (though what the claim had to do with the laughers I posted earlier in the thread neither I nor anyone else can figure out), then you should probably have chosen someone that actually got worse, than someone that essentially got (even more) injured. That's common sense.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I rest my case, you're not worth it.

Give yourself a pad on the back, and you can insert some witty remark here to wrap this up.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Was the removal of your personal attacks that distressing to you?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Personal attacks are a violation of the terms of service, do you understand that?

Your Friendly Neighbourhood Moderator


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

:lol::lol::lol:

You are truly my favorite moderator. Don't ban me now, that was a compliment.

A toast to your mod-ness :cheers:.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

If you have any problems, take it to PM where it belongs


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

fortson? brand? childress? mcroberts? what does any of that have to do with the knicks


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

knickstorm said:


> fortson? brand? childress? mcroberts? what does any of that have to do with the knicks


Honestly you can add Jerome James to that list. :bsmile:


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