# Dwight Howard's Career VS Shaq



## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

Obviously Dwight still has along way to go and we're looking forward to about 10 more strong seasons from him, but do how do you guys compare him to Shaq's career? I think Dwight's pretty overrated when you compare him to other dominant Centers of the past and it kinda sucks that he's considered the best at his position.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

lol


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Do you think Bill Russell was overrated as well ?


----------



## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Bill Russell was a great scorer and one of the best passing big man in the history of the game. Dwight Howard has not a damned thing to do with Bill Russell. Short answer Dwight Howard has no career relative to any of the players he's been facetiously compared with. Dwight Howard simply isn't even close to being an all time great player and only afforded his stature among current players because of the dearth of competition at his position.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Dwight has the potential to be a great rebounding center but that's about it. When you look at Shaq's numbers you just can't imagine Dwight ever averaging more than 25 points a game.

I also have a hard time seeing Dwight winning championships at least in Orlando. With Lewis's contract Orlando will have a hard time making the necessary improvements needed to win the chip which is a shame because they are so close.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

gi0rdun said:


> Obviously Dwight still has along way to go and we're looking forward to about 10 more strong seasons from him, but do how do you guys compare him to Shaq's career? I think Dwight's pretty overrated when you compare him to other dominant Centers of the past and it kinda sucks that he's considered the best at his position.


1st off, it doesn't suck that he's the best player @ his position... You cannot penalize the guy for being the only young Center to step up, simply because he doesn't compare to the top 4-5 C's of all time... Just because he's not better than a prime Shaq or Hakeem doesn't make him an overrated player. He's still young, but the comparisons to Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt, or what have you, is just insincere to Dwight. Is Chris Bosh or Dirk overrated because they're not top 4 POAT at their position?? Poor logic.

2nd, The game has evolved and become a perimeter game. The system in place today allows you to beat up on the bigs, and the floppers and divers have adapted and taken over. Guards are alot quicker and more athletic on the whole, so it's not as easy to rack up 4-5 blocks a game today like in the early 90's w/o fouling out. If we're going to look @ Dwight tho, I see no reason to call him overrated based on the game today. And when looking at the players of the past, it's not fair to handpick perhaps the most dominant force to ever grace the (modern) game, and then say he's overrated. That's just not fair to anybody honestly. 

Dwight is easily the best C in the league today and still developing. I'd put him @ an area right above Mourning and maybe a tad below Ewing and Robinson... He's still a great player and probably a candidate for top 10 @ his position already at the age of 24, but time will tell. A guy like Ewing didnt elevate his game until he was 27, Dwight is only 24. Overrated is a subjective term, but to compare him to Shaq and say that is laughable. Let's give the guy a chance, please.


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Definitely overrated especially when compared to guys like Shaq and David Robinson. Those guys played in the golden era of bigs and not only were a defensive force but were also competing for the scoring title and MVP. Howard can rebound and leap on the level of these guys, arguably better, but simply does not have the overall dominating presence especially after seeing how LA played him in the Finals. I too find it depressing that Howard is likely the best big nowadays but thats because we've been spoiled by the likes of a young Shaq, Robinson, Duncan, KG, Hakeem, etc. Yao could challenge Howard's title as today's best center but he has to stay healthy first which seems less and less likely given his history.

He's got huge shoes to fill and I don't think he can ever be as dominant as Shaq (even in this relatively weak big man era) and for the hell of it check out some of The Admiral's achievements:



> The man could put the ball in the hole: He led the league in scoring in 1993-94 and is one of only five players to have ever scored more than 70 points in a single game (with 71 points against the Los Angeles Clippers on April 24, 1994). He is one of only four players to have recorded a quadruple-double (with 34 points, 10 rebounds, 10 assists and 10 blocks against the Detroit Pistons on February 17, 1994). In 1991-92, he became just the third player to have ever ranked among the league's top 10 in five statistical categories, joining Cliff Hagan (1959-60) and Larry Bird (1985-86) -- Robinson was seventh in scoring (23.2 ppg), fourth in rebounding (12.2 rpg), first in blocks (4.49 per game), fifth in steals (2.32 per game) and seventh in field-goal percentage (.551). That achievement also made him the *first player to ever rank among the top five in rebounding, blocks and steals in a single season*. And finally, he's also the *only player in NBA history to win the Rebounding, Blocked Shots, and Scoring Titles and Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year and MVP*.
> ---
> He led the league in PER for three consecutive seasons, 1993-94 (30.7), 1994-95 (29.1) and 1995-96 (29.4). He also ranked second in 1991-92 (27.5), and third in 1990-91 (27.4), 1997-98 (27.8) and 1998-99 (24.9). He was still ranked as high as tenth in 2000-01 (23.7).
> 
> http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2008/09/my-21-gun-salute-to-admiral.html


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

And who has ever said Dwight is better than Shaq or David Robinson? You guys are the only ones that I have ever heard imply that, cuz I sure have'nt heard the argument for it, nor heard anyone suggest it... 

Essentially Dwight Howard is overrated because, at 24, he's not a top 5 center of all time is your argument?? Im mean after DRob, you got who Ewing? after Ewing, who's next?? Mourning? Mikan?? Gilmore?? Parish?? Mutombo?? Honestly, Dwight is on pace to be in the upper tier of that 2nd group, ie perhaps top 6-7 player all-time at his position, and people are mad because he's not top 5?? I just dont understand... I have never heard anyone make an argument that Dwight is better than Robinson or Shaq. 

Seems like he is penalized for being the best center in this era. An era dominated by perimeter players. The problem is not Dwight, the problem is that the league has evolved in a way that drastically devalues a true center. 3pt attempts per game have increased significantly since there early 90's, which as I said, distorts his impact defensively compared to those guy... 4-5 bpg just isn't gonna happen in this era like those guys were getting in the early 90's. With the increased emphasis on perimeter shooting, the center’s opportunity to dominate the paint decreases. Dwight is a victim of that era if anything. His own team jacks soo many 3's that they dont even get him enough touches. His main fault is that he doesn't demand the ball and maybe versatility offensively, but in terms of rebounding, defense, and efficiency the guy is all-world and arguably just as good as anybody in the history of the game imo.


----------



## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> And who has ever said Dwight is better than Shaq or David Robinson? You guys are the only ones that I have ever heard imply that, cuz I sure have'nt heard the argument for it, nor heard anyone suggest it...


That was pretty much my thought...


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> And who has ever said Dwight is better than Shaq or David Robinson? You guys are the only ones that I have ever heard imply that, cuz I sure have'nt heard the argument for it, nor heard anyone suggest it...
> 
> Essentially Dwight Howard is overrated because, at 24, he's not a top 5 center of all time is your argument?? Im mean after DRob, you got who Ewing? after Ewing, who's next?? Mourning? Mikan?? Gilmore?? Parish?? Mutombo?? Honestly, Dwight is on pace to be in the upper tier of that 2nd group, ie perhaps top 6-7 player all-time at his position, and people are mad because he's not top 5?? I just dont understand... I have never heard anyone make an argument that Dwight is better than Robinson or Shaq.


1. Wilt
2. Russell
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem
5. Kareem
6. Moses
7. David Robinson
8. Mikan
9. Willis Reed
10. Ewing
11. Wes Unseld
12. Zo

Maybe something like that? Dwight might be able to slide into the back part of the top 10. But there's a huge gap between that top 5 and where Dwight might end up.

I think people's frustration with Dwight is that they look out at his competition, and look at his skills, and wonder why in the hell he's not the most dominant force in the league. It's hard to take him on his own terms because he literally has no competition(Andrew Bynum maybe?). And the thing is, even if he were a top 10 center that wouldn't per se make him a top 50 player all-time, like guys like Lebron, Kobe, Paul, Wade are threatening.


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> And who has ever said Dwight is better than Shaq or David Robinson? You guys are the only ones that I have ever heard imply that, cuz I sure have'nt heard the argument for it, nor heard anyone suggest it...


You said Howard was a "tad" below Robinson and that he's a candidate for top 10 in his position and like my post above showed he's simply not the overall dominant presence that the other guys were (not to mention this topic is about his career versus Shaq's): 



Blue Magic said:


> I'd put him @ an area right above Mourning and maybe a tad below Ewing and Robinson... He's still a great player and probably a candidate for top 10 @ his position already at the age of 24, but time will tell. A guy like Ewing didnt elevate his game until he was 27, Dwight is only 24. Overrated is a subjective term, but to compare him to Shaq and say that is laughable. Let's give the guy a chance, please.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

That's really a stretch of an argument to call him overrated imo.

It's hard to say how much a tad is and even if that's considered overrated it's nothing compared to some of the things that have been said on these boards.

What you can say about Dwight is that if he doesn't improve significantly on offense he will not go down as an all time great center. He will however likely make the hall of fame because his rebounding numbers will be ridiculous by the time his career is over and the fact that he is the best center of this era.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

futuristxen said:


> 1. Wilt
> 2. Russell
> 3. Shaq
> 4. Hakeem
> ...


Some of the guys you listed are fringe centers or combo big men.. I view Russell as a PF's for some reason, but either way, aside from his rebounding and defense it's tough for me to iclude him in the top 5... He was a criminally inefficient scorer, and with the way Wilt dominated that era, it makes his #'s look a bit mundane, idk. Also, I always thought of Moses and Reed as a PF's too... If they're included in this, we might as well include Duncan, Malone, Hayes, Mchale, KG, Bosh and every great combo big who has ever played a minte @ center! My list is more about the thoroughbred centers only:

1.Wilt
2.Kareem
3.Shaq
4.Hakeem
5.DRob

^Those guys have either have incredible #'s and efficiency and/or incredible success, that seperates them from the pack. Doubt Dwight will catch that group unless he really elevates his volume scoring to an elite level or tacks on a cpl finals mvps. He has the efficiency, the rebounding, and the defense imo, but he doesnt score with the same volume right now.

6.Moses - if you view him as center?
7.Ewing
8.Russell - if you view him as center?
9.Gilmore
10.Mikan - dont know much about him?
10.Reed - center?
12.Mourning
13.Bellamy?
14.Parish?
15.??Mutombo??



Jakain said:


> You said Howard was a "tad" below Robinson and that he's a candidate for top 10 in his position and like my post above showed he's simply not the overall dominant presence that the other guys were


I said he's a tad below Ewing and Robinson, what more do you want to hear? Hop off a Robinsons nuts for a sec and tell me who ever said Dwight is the overall player those guys were? Cause I know I specifically said his he's not the volume scorer those guys were...


----------



## JT3000 (Nov 3, 2004)

This thread is positively haterific. 

"Let's compare this young, still developing player to a top 10 all-time NBA player so we can call him overrated. That's the ticket!" 

Great job, guys. Real intelligent. Also especially funny coming on the heels of a game where Dwight accomplished something that hadn't been done since Wilt (meaning Shaq never did it.) But keep hating.


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> I said he's a tad below Ewing and Robinson, what more do you want to hear? Hop off a Robinsons nuts for a sec and tell me who ever said Dwight is the overall player those guys were? Cause I know I specifically said his he's not the volume scorer those guys were...


Well technically you said "maybe a tad" below those guys; he's nowhere close to Robinson when it comes to the full player likewise with Shaq.

Howard's a great player, just not that great.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jakain said:


> Well technically you said "maybe a tad" below those guys; he's nowhere close to Robinson when it comes to the full player likewise with Shaq.
> 
> Howard's a great player, just not that great.


Okay true, I said 'maybe', but that was because I was unsure of where he'd go _in between_ Mourning and Robinson, not that he was better... If you pay attention to the thought process, I was implying that both Ewing and Robinson are better @ this point. I made a point that Ewing didn't really elevate his game until the middle of his career(27 or so), implying if Dwight makes a similar leap over next cpl years he could maybe pass Ewing. ..

Never tried to imply that Dwight was better than Ewing or Robinson RIGHT NOW, my only implication was really somewhere above Mourning... I do feel Dwight can pass Ewing if he improve's his volume of scoring. Robinson was a prolific scorer and pretty versatile post player offensively and defensively. Dwight is a terrific defensive player, but not the volume scorer or passser Robinson was... Arguably tho, I think Dwight is already a better rebounder than both and probably just as good of a defender considering the current era(ie. obviously less blocks due to evolution of the perimeter game the last 15yrs)... 

Dwight's efficiency is not a problem considering 4 consecutive season with a TS% over 60%, but once again to clarify, he is not the volume scorer of either Pat or DRob, nor the passer of Robinson. He is a more physical presence, but he needs to open up his game alittle bit more. Robinson will be tough to catch, i admit because of his scoring, but Ewing he can catch. He needs to increase the # of shots he puts up and demand the ball. The problem early in the season was not only foul trouble, but him deferring to much to his chucker teammates too much... Right now he is demanding the ball now and taking control of his team... Learning what he needs to do... He shouldn't be taking less than 10 shots in any game, and he cant wait for the coach to say it, he needs to demand it. It's good to see him stepping up and doing this. He put up 31 in 3qtrs on weds.


----------



## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Anyone want to buy a Dwight Howard autographed jersey I won directly from addidas (his sponsor) with documentation....

Make me an offer I cant refuse!


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

^nah, too bad it's not pinstripes..


----------



## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

JT3000 said:


> This thread is positively haterific.
> 
> "Let's compare this young, still developing player to a top 10 all-time NBA player so we can call him overrated. That's the ticket!"
> 
> Great job, guys. Real intelligent. Also especially funny coming on the heels of a game where Dwight accomplished something that hadn't been done since Wilt (meaning Shaq never did it.) But keep hating.


When someone asks who are the top young players in the league you'll almost always get something like LeBron, Dwight, Wade (if you consider him young), Chris Paul etc.,

Dwight simply does not compare to any of those players mentioned in terms of talent.


----------



## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

Diable said:


> *Bill Russell was a great scorer *and one of the best passing big man in the history of the game. Dwight Howard has not a damned thing to do with Bill Russell. Short answer Dwight Howard has no career relative to any of the players he's been facetiously compared with. Dwight Howard simply isn't even close to being an all time great player and only afforded his stature among current players because of the dearth of competition at his position.


Bill Russell was hardly a great scorer... More like a terrible scorer. Career 44% fg shooter (which is awful for a center) and 15.1 points per game. And that was at a period in the game when teams scored much more and there were many more possesions. Compare that to Howard's career 57.5% fg shooting and 17.5 ppg. You must think Howard is a phenomenal scorer...

Honestly Bill Russel would get destroyed by Howard. 

But Howard is not nearly as good as Shaq.


----------



## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I'm not buying that Howard is even close to Alonzo Mourning. Exactly how could he be. Mourning was a better defender than Howard is and it's not really debateable. He's better at everything else except rebounding and that's not a significant difference in comparison to Mourning's advantages in every other aspect of the game.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Diable said:


> I'm not buying that Howard is even close to Alonzo Mourning. Exactly how could he be. Mourning was a better defender than Howard is and it's not really debateable. He's better at everything else except rebounding and that's not a significant difference in comparison to Mourning's advantages in every other aspect of the game.


I disagree if you think Mourning is a better than than Howard, but to say it's not even close is just an argument with zero credibilty. Why dont you tell us the significant advantages of Mourning?? 

Mourning's highest defensive rating was 99.2, Dwight highest defensive rating is 99.0... It's definitely debatable when biggest difference is .2%... Offensively Dwight is the more efficient player, and get's to the line more... I dont see the case for Mourney aside from longevity at this point...


----------



## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Tell us why Howard gets to the line so much if that's an advantage?


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

^Simple. He's less efficient @ Ft's than he is dunking or laying it in... The easiest way to stop him from dunking or laying it in, is to foul. 

I guess Mourning was easier to stop w/o fouling, because he was less efficient from the field and was on the line less...


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Comparison should never have been made, Dwight will never be the scorer Shaq was. And you know in Shaq's defense, despite his lackadaisical conditioning, the guy is still playing in the league and looks like he could go another 2 to 3 years. I like Dwight though, and he gets a lot of unfair criticism. His offense has improved LOTS, and he continues to get better. Wont even mention his defense because he easily is the best defender in the league, and the scary part is he can still improve. Learn to cut down on fouls, improve his timing, play better man to man D etc. He has that over Shaq, but passing, offense, dominance is all Shaq. Beast!


----------



## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> ^nah, too bad it's not pinstripes..


I have the new white jersey with pinstripes signed. Got it autographed when I met him at the jersey unveiling... but it's not for sale.




















Blue Magic said:


> I disagree if you think Mourning is a better than than Howard, but to say it's not even close is just an argument with zero credibilty. Why dont you tell us the significant advantages of Mourning??
> 
> Mourning's highest defensive rating was 99.2, Dwight highest defensive rating is 99.0... It's definitely debatable when biggest difference is .2%... Offensively Dwight is the more efficient player, and get's to the line more... I dont see the case for Mourney aside from longevity at this point...


Mourning was much better then Howard. Zo should have an MVP but was screwed. I can't see Dwight ever being higher then #3-4 in MVP voting. The biggest advantage Dwight has is he will play probably double the amount of years as Zo because of coming out of high school and Zo's kidney.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

caseyrh said:


> Honestly Bill Russel would get destroyed by Howard.


Doubtful.










You need to give more credit to the winningest man in the history of the sport. He didn't win 9 championships by being worse than David Robinson.


----------



## JT3000 (Nov 3, 2004)

gi0rdun said:


> When someone asks who are the top young players in the league you'll almost always get something like LeBron, Dwight, Wade (if you consider him young), Chris Paul etc.,
> 
> Dwight simply does not compare to any of those players mentioned in terms of talent.


Do you know why he's considered one of the league's best players? Because he is. It doesn't really matter what you think of his talent, because he gets the job done. Results speak for themselves. He is in no way, shape or form overrated. Comparing him to people he obviously shouldn't be compared to, like Shaq, will do nothing to prove otherwise. Shaq is no longer relevant to the league's elite anyway.

By the way, everyone you just mentioned plays a completely different position, so comparing their skill sets is pretty silly to begin with.


----------



## SlamJam (Nov 27, 2004)

actually i think mourning and howard are about equal in terms of overall impact. mourning was a better defender and also better on offense, and howard is a better rebounder. in terms of all-time rankings, howard should pass mourning just because of mourning's health problems. howard won't ever crack the top tier of centers though.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

JT3000 said:


> Shaq is no longer relevant to the league's elite anyway.


??? He's the starting center on the team with the best record in the league, and has played Howard to a standstill both times he's played him. He's probably still a top 5 center in the league. Which is more about how bad the center position is these days than how good he is.

But what centers would you really take over Shaq right now if you were trying to win this year? He and Z both are probably top 10 centers still.


----------



## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I don't really understand all of the hate that Dwight gets. He is what he is, a dominant defensive player who doesn't have a refined offensive game. That isn't going to change. That being said, he's still probably going to be considered a top eight center when he retires so I don't see why people are complaining. No one's comparing him to Shaq/Hakeem, so I'm not really sure why they're being brought up so frequently in this thread.


----------



## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> ??? He's the starting center on the team with the best record in the league, and has played Howard to a standstill both times he's played him. He's probably still a top 5 center in the league. Which is more about how bad the center position is these days than how good he is.
> 
> But what centers would you really take over Shaq right now if you were trying to win this year? He and Z both are probably top 10 centers still.


You need to stop posting in threads that have to deal with the Cavs, we aren't blinded by our love for the team like you are. Z is probably not even in the top 30 of Centers. 

And by the way, the Center position is actually surprisingly strong.

Top Centers:
Howard
Lopez
Horford
Yao
Noah
Bogut
Bynum
Kaman
Lee

Good Centers:
Bargnani 
Perkins
Shaq
J O'Neal
Nene
Okur
Camby
Oden
Okafor
Biedrins
M. Gasol


Bottom Tier:
Dalembert
B. Wallace
Big Z
Chandler
Haywood


And that is all very debatable, I wrote that up in 2 min, so don't jump on my back people if you think I over/under rated somebody.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

SlamJam said:


> actually i think mourning and howard are about equal in terms of overall impact. mourning was a better defender and also better on offense, and howard is a better rebounder. in terms of all-time rankings, howard should pass mourning just because of mourning's health problems. howard won't ever crack the top tier of centers though.


Well like i've been asking, I would like to see some #'s. I have nothing against Mourning, he was good guy and nice player. But the numbers i'm looking @ say Howard is better offensively AND defensively, to be honest. 

Better defensive rating(Howard #30, Mourning #41): http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html ..... 

Better offensive rating... 

More efficient scorer... 

More efficient rebounder...

Mourning was a more efficient shot blocker, but that was an era where alot of guys were racking up 4+ bpg... But once again, outside of shotblocking, in what aspect did Mourning excel ahead of Dwight?? FT%?? 3pt%??

I mean I admit Mourning is right there next to Dwight, but people seem to not want to give Dwight any credit.


----------



## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Doubtful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The NBA was much weaker than and Russels teams were absolutly loaded with talent. But if you think a 6'9 215 pound center could guard Howard then you are crazy. And David robinson would murder Rusell.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

caseyrh said:


> The NBA was much weaker than and Russels teams were absolutly loaded with talent. But if you think a 6'9 215 pound center could guard Howard then you are crazy. And David robinson would murder Rusell.


Heck, Russell couldn't even stop Wilt... Great rebounder and competitor, but let's be real w/ ourselves now. 



> If you were to look at the Russell-Chamberlain rivalry strictly in terms of the individual numbers, you'd say, "What's the fuss?"
> 
> *Chamberlain averaged exactly 28.7 points and 28.7 rebounds a game during those 142 games*, the point totals brought down a bit by his late-in-career transformation from relentless scoring machine to more well-rounded player. *In the early years Wilt scored 50 or more points seven times against Russell, including a high of 62 on January 14, 1962*. By the time we could start referring to these men as "aging warriors," the numbers were a bit more back to earth. Wilt's high game in their final year was 35, and three times he scored in single figures.
> 
> ...


----------



## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> Well like i've been asking, I would like to see some #'s. I have nothing against Mourning, he was good guy and nice player. But the numbers i'm looking @ say Howard is better offensively AND defensively, to be honest.
> 
> Better defensive rating(Howard #30, Mourning #41): http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html .....
> 
> ...


Mourning isn't really a good person to compare stats for, he had 5 seasons where he played 25 games or less so his numbers are skewed. 

If you look at his stats up until he was diagnosed with his kidney problems he averaged 21, 10, 1.5, 3 and this was playing for a notoriously slow and defensive minded Heat team. Howard's average is 17, 12.5, 1.4, 2.1, so the numbers are similar with Zo being much better on the offensive end and at blocked shots, and Howard being a much better rebounder, but also Howard plays for one of the highest scoring teams. I think it's pretty obvious that Zo was a better player, but Dwight does have a higher ceiling then Alonzo had.


----------



## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

Dwight has something the other Cs have never had. Thats athleticism like no other. 

The problem with athleticism being his major weapon is we will probably see a drop off in his early 30s. 
But no he doesnt have the body strength of a Shaq (something that he has been able to utilise well into his 30s) or Hakeem's defensive presence and agility just yet. 

He really needs to make use of his time before his 30s to really stand next to or near Dwight. He is still young and his prime is ahead of him so we dont know what he can become. But his outside game needs to develop if he wants to be compared to Hakeem and Shaq. 

PS on a side note I am one who thinks Hakeem was the better player than Shaq esp at his prime. But I do realise that Hakeem's drop off was bigger than Shaq's drop off into their 30s.


----------



## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

hroz said:


> *Dwight has something the other Cs have never had. Thats athleticism like no other*.
> 
> The problem with athleticism being his major weapon is we will probably see a drop off in his early 30s.
> But no he doesnt have the body strength of a Shaq (something that he has been able to utilise well into his 30s) or Hakeem's defensive presence and agility just yet.
> ...


Howards a great athlete. But Shaq was an even better one. Guys like David Robinson, Olajuwan, Kareem, Chamberlain were all phenomenal athletes as well. Dwight's athleticism is top notch though but the guys I mentioned above were all at least on par with him in that category.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

caseyrh said:


> Howards a great athlete. But Shaq was an even better one. Guys like David Robinson, Olajuwan, Kareem, Chamberlain were all phenomenal athletes as well. Dwight's athleticism is top notch though but the guys I mentioned above were all at least on par with him in that category.


Shaq was more dominant, but I dont know about more athletic... There's no question though that he was the most dominating presence to grace the league since Wilt... A 7'2, 325+ lb juggernaught who simply dwarfs the the competition...



hroz said:


> Dwight has something the other Cs have never had. Thats athleticism like no other.
> 
> The problem with athleticism being his major weapon is we will probably see a drop off in his early 30s.
> But no he doesnt have the body strength of a Shaq (something that he has been able to utilise well into his 30s) or Hakeem's defensive presence and agility just yet.
> ...


Hakeem did take it to a young Shaq in the Finals, but I think there's no question Shaq had the more dominating career... Shaq had 10 seasons over 25ppg, compared to 4 from Hakeem, 4 from Robinson, 2 from Ewing... Only other centers I know that also got 10 were Wilt and Kareem...


----------



## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

Blue Magic said:


> Also, I always thought of Moses and Reed as a PF's too...


Moses was definitely a center. Not even really debatable.


----------



## SlamJam (Nov 27, 2004)

Blue Magic said:


> Well like i've been asking, I would like to see some #'s. I have nothing against Mourning, he was good guy and nice player. But the numbers i'm looking @ say Howard is better offensively AND defensively, to be honest.
> 
> Better defensive rating(Howard #30, Mourning #41): http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_career.html .....
> 
> ...


defensive and offensive rating are pretty weak numbers. i mean come on - just look at that link you posted - there are major mistakes if you are going to go by that. 

on offense, howard has a slight advantage in TS% (60%-58%), but that doesn't account for the fact that mourning was putting up more points even though he played in one of the slowest paced systems in the league that limited number of possessions. and if you watched him, you would know that while he was never a great offensive player, mourning simply had more in his arsenal than howard has.



> Mourning was a more efficient shot blocker, but that was an era where alot of guys were racking up 4+ bpg...


your era argument holds no water at all. the reason you don't have players getting 4 bpg now is because mutombo, olajuwon, mourning, and robinson were great shot blockers whose primes were in the 90s. they would be doing the same if they played today. if era made such a difference, then why did mourning and mutombo maintain their blocks/minute numbers late in their career in this decade? why in recent years have guys camby, kirilenko, and ratliff put up numbers that howard hasn't?



> I mean I admit Mourning is right there next to Dwight, but people seem to not want to give Dwight any credit.


like i said, i agree that mourning's overall impact is similar to howard. but who is not giving howard "any credit"? now you're doing the same thing the OP did.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

When you have haters you're a great player. At least thats what all the LeBron James fans always say. So If that's true, it's quite obvious Howard is already a great player. But really was there any doubt ? All of the stars from this generation have players above them including LeBron James when comparing to history. They all have a long way to go if they want to be considered the best ever or simply the best at their position.


----------



## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Diable said:


> Bill Russell was a great scorer and one of the best passing big man in the history of the game. Dwight Howard has not a damned thing to do with Bill Russell. Short answer Dwight Howard has no career relative to any of the players he's been facetiously compared with. Dwight Howard simply isn't even close to being an all time great player and only afforded his stature among current players because of the dearth of competition at his position.


Nice words.

I think its ****ing hilarious that say this **** about Dwight and then claim LeBron is already one of the greatest ever at his position. 

It seems as though the true value of a player's worth is now measured by how many highlights they have on Sportscenter.

Watch some god damn basketball.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Duck34234 said:


> Nice words.
> 
> I think its ****ing hilarious that say this **** about Dwight and then claim LeBron is already one of the greatest ever at his position.
> 
> ...


Very true, Diable is a notorious Dwight Howard hater though, so please take his words with a grain of salt.


----------



## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I don't care if the biggest dumbest hater in the entire bbb calls me a hater. Dwight Howard is a great athlete. He's a good shotblocker and a great rebounder. That's the alpha and the omega of Dwight Howard. He simply is not a great basketball player. At this point is Dwight Howard really better than Chris Bosh. Chris Bosh got better this year. Howard got older.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

SlamJam said:


> defensive and offensive rating are pretty weak numbers. i mean come on - just look at that link you posted - there are major mistakes if you are going to go by that.


No disrespect to Mourning, I just cant see how some could make a statement like: "I'm not buying that Howard is even close to Alonzo Mourning. Exactly how could he be. *Mourning was a better defender than Howard is and it's not really debateable. *"

It's not debateable?? The #'s dont agree with you bud. It's damn close, and defensive rating confirms that. There's better arguments that I could make, but for sake of ignorance and time i'll just keep it simple to shut him up. To say it's not debatable or close is probably the most ignorant thing one could say..



> on offense, howard has a slight advantage in TS% (60%-58%), but that doesn't account for the fact that mourning was putting up more points even though he played in one of the slowest paced systems in the league that limited number of possessions. and if you watched him, you would know that while he was never a great offensive player, mourning simply had more in his arsenal than howard has.


By that logic, Mourning was better than Shaq?? If we're going by arsenal, he was the more versatile, correct?? lol, just kidding(kind of) I see what you're saying, but the pace argument is kind of moot to me... Regardless of the pace, Mourning still managed to put up more shots in the 1st 8 yrs of his career than Dwight ever has... Despite that, he was only getting marginally more ppg game. 

I'll give you the more versatile offensive player argument, but more effective? I dont really see it. It's close right now tho. 



> your era argument holds no water at all. *the reason you don't have players getting 4 bpg now is because mutombo, olajuwon, mourning, and robinson were great shot blockers whose primes were in the 90s. * they would be doing the same if they played today. if era made such a difference, then why did mourning and mutombo maintain their blocks/minute numbers late in their career in this decade? why in recent years have guys camby, kirilenko, and ratliff put up numbers that howard hasn't?


Oh, that's all it is?? What am I thinking.. :explosion:

Cause when I look @ the increase in # of 3pt att/pg in the last 5-6 years(ie 04-05 through now), compared to 97-98 through 03-04, I see an astronomical difference... 10 years ago(ie 99-00) only one team att 20+ 3's per game, and that was the Kings who attempted exactly 20.0 3's on the button. In the present(ie 09-10), 7 teams are attempting over 20 3's per game, and the lg leading team Magic are attempting 27.7... But you're right, Dwight should be out there on the perimeter blocking shots if he was any good at defense... 

Honestly, there's just not as many ppl coming in the lane anymore if they dont have to... So no disrespect, but it is a diff era and I doubt even those great guys would still be getting 4+ bpg seasons in this era.. just like I doubt Wilt would be pulling down 25+ rebs in this era.. 

As for Camby, you brought up a good point. He was really good from 05-06 to 07-08, which goes against the trend of 3pt attempts increasing significantly in 04-05... I did some digging on those Denver teams to figure out why he was so great for that stretch and figured out what it was... Those Nuggets teams were either #1 or 2 in pace for each of those 3 seasons. Still, he was a great shotblocker but his team was avg 116-117 pos per game in those seasons(compared to Dwight's team avg 94.6 - 95 pos/game)... I wish Hollinger's stats went beyond 02-03 so that I could compare the pace of Mourning's teams in his prime to Dwight's.... It's too bad.



> like i said, i agree that mourning's overall impact is similar to howard. but who is not giving howard "any credit"? now you're doing the same thing the OP did.


Who have I not given credit to?? I'm looking for ppl to show me some #'s that back up what they're saying. As I posted earlier, someone said Mourning was a "better defener than Dwight and it's not even close." If that was the case I would admit it, but no one has given me anything other bpg and offensive versatility. I still believe that Dwight is the more effective player. Prove me wrong!

:fishing:


----------



## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Diable said:


> I don't care if the biggest dumbest hater in the entire bbb calls me a hater. Dwight Howard is a great athlete. He's a good shotblocker and a great rebounder. That's the alpha and the omega of Dwight Howard. He simply is not a great basketball player. At this point is Dwight Howard really better than Chris Bosh. Chris Bosh got better this year. Howard got older.


I'm not gonna argue with a brick wall.

Watch some god damn basketball games.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Duck34234 said:


> I'm not gonna argue with a brick wall.
> 
> Watch some god damn basketball games.


Someone saying Dwight Howard is not a great basketball player, should be erased from the planet. As it's apparent their brain melted into a pile of dookie.


----------



## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Someone saying Dwight Howard is not a great basketball player, should be erased from the planet. As it's apparent their brain melted into a pile of dookie.


I agree with that especially when you see what Howard has done in just 6 years and by the age of 24:

2X DPOTY (2009, 2010)
3X All NBA 1st team (2008, 2009, 2010)
1X All NBA 3rd team (2007)
2X All NBA Defensive 1st team (2009, 2010)
1X All NBA Defensive 2nd team (2008)
4X Allstar (3X starter)
Dunk Champion (2008)
Olympic Gold Medal winner (2008)
Youngest player in NBA history to lead the league in rebounds and blocks
Youngest player in NBA history to 6000 rebounds
Youngest player in NBA history to 1000 blocks
Could be the 1st player in NBA history to lead the league in rebounds and blocks for consecutive seasons
Could be the 1st player in NBA history to lead the league in FG%, rebounds and blocks for a season
Howard is on pace to be top 30 all time in scoring, top 15 all time in rebounds, top 15 all time in blocks and top 5 all time in FG%

Need I say more?


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Idunkonyou said:


> I agree with that especially when you see what Howard has done in just 6 years and by the age of 24:
> 
> 2X DPOTY (2009, 2010)
> 3X All NBA 1st team (2008, 2009, 2010)
> ...


And that is just the beginning for Howard. The guy is improving immensely from season to season. His offensive game is starting to develop nicely, he's by and far away the best defensive player in the league, he's the anchor of a team that was just in the NBA Finals. And Howard will win many more Defensive Player Of The Year Awards, and have many MVP's and Championships when his career is done.


----------



## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

myst said:


> And by the way, the Center position is actually surprisingly strong.
> 
> Top Centers:
> Howard
> ...


I'll let you take a combination of any of those 6 centers and compare it to that period where David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, Alonzo Mourning, Shaquille O'Neal and Dikembe Mutombo and see how they compare.

Before it used to suck to be a Center because you have to be a Top 3 Center to make an All-NBA team but now you would rather be a Center to have a chance at making the All-NBA team.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

gi0rdun said:


> I'll let you take a combination of any of those 6 centers and compare it to that period where David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, Alonzo Mourning, Shaquille O'Neal and Dikembe Mutombo and see how they compare.
> 
> Before it used to suck to be a Center because you have to be a Top 3 Center to make an All-NBA team but now you would rather be a Center to have a chance at making the All-NBA team.


Not as crowded at the top, but better depth? Too many fringe center/power forwards these days... They put offense at a premium, over defense. Dwight is a throwback.


----------



## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

23AJ said:


> And that is just the beginning for Howard. The guy is improving immensely from season to season. His offensive game is starting to develop nicely, he's by and far away the best defensive player in the league, he's the anchor of a team that was just in the NBA Finals. And Howard will win many more Defensive Player Of The Year Awards, and have many MVP's and Championships when his career is done.


I forgot to add he has a gold medal and will be the youngest player in NBA history to win back to back DPOTY awards. Seriously. Any one who doesn't think Howard is one of the best is a moron.


----------



## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> Not as crowded at the top, but better depth? Too many fringe center/power forwards these days... They put offense at a premium, over defense. Dwight is a throwback.


Exactly. Howard is an old school center in a league that has gone away from making the center the primary focus. Now it is more about the PF, SF and SG or a hybrid of the 3 than anything else and that has a lot to do with how offenses are run now a days. Still there is nothing better than a good inside/outside game.


----------



## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

I'd prefer to revisit this thread in 2017. It's not fair to compare now unless you wanna project numbers. I could see him making a case for a top 10-15 when it's all said and done.


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

gi0rdun said:


> I'll let you take a combination of any of those 6 centers and compare it to that period where David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, Alonzo Mourning, Shaquille O'Neal and Dikembe Mutombo and see how they compare.
> 
> Before it used to suck to be a Center because you have to be a Top 3 Center to make an All-NBA team but now you would rather be a Center to have a chance at making the All-NBA team.


Agreed. Howard is a great big but the competition has been pretty weak for him since he's been in the league and he has a much worse overall game compared to the other greats (still means Howard is a great player though). 



Spaceman Spiff said:


> I'd prefer to revisit this thread in 2017. It's not fair to compare now unless you wanna project numbers. I could see him making a case for a top 10-15 when it's all said and done.


I see Howard being a top 10 or 15 big man but I agree its pretty poor to compare Howard to Shaq or really any great big man now. It'll also be interesting to see how Howard deals with age since imo he has one of the most athletically dependent games on both ends of the floor.


----------



## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

A little something for haters:



> His (Howard's) TRB% is top 3 all time at the moment. He is also the first player in NBA history to lead the league in total rebounds for 5 consecutive seasons. Howard might miss out on a few years with people like Rodman in the league but Rodman is an anomaly.
> 
> Furthermore, it is true Howard's bpg are the lowest to ever lead the league. However, his 08-09 & 09-10 BLK% is higher than Hakeem, Ewing, or Mourning at the age of 24, Mutumbo at the age of 25, and is higher than 70% of the seasons Robinson played in. I could mention a few other things about touch fouls, game play, mpg, rule changes but we all get the point.


Interesting.


----------



## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

It'll be tough but possible.

I don't think Dwight Howard will ever get close to Shaq in terms of offensive numbers. I see him plateauing around 20 to 24 points per game for most of his career, most likely closer to 20.

Defensively Howard is already way above where Shaq ever was.

Historically, they will be measured by titles. Something Shaq always had was a top 3 player as a teammate throughout his entire career.

He had Penny in Orlando, who was the best PG in the league from his rookie year up until his injury problems.

He had Kobe, he had Wade. Now he has LeBron carrying the load. Shaq had all of these players in their primes.

Dwight has no one that comes close to that. So if Howard wins a few titles with a similar cast, I give him a lot more credit than Shaq personally.

I view Hakeem as being better than Shaq for instance despite the fact that Hakeem had two titles. A large portion of that was Hakeem's defense.

Howard's offensive game is just too underdeveloped though. If I were an odds maker, I'd say there is a 33% chance Howard goes down being better than Shaq. It's possible, but I don't think it is likely unless Howard develops his offensive game a lot more.

A thing about athleticism, Howard is faster than and a better leaper than Shaq, but Shaq had better agility. Shaq had the best spin move for a post man I have ever seen. Howard still needs to work on his offensive game a lot. He can be shut out of a game offensively too easily compared to Shaq or Hakeem in their primes.

That being noted, Dwight isn't in his prime year. Right now, I think Dwight Howard will go down historically similar to David Robinson unless he can prove to be more of an offensive force.


----------



## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Not one of those guys was a top five player while Shaq was in his prime...That's nonsense. People who try to act like Kobe was close to Shaq while they were together are just ridiculous. Penny isn't even close to a great player in comparison to Shaq or anyone else of note. He had a couple of seasons where he was a relatively good player. His career isn't defined by what Nike made him out to be.


----------



## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

Diable said:


> Not one of those guys was a top five player while Shaq was in his prime...That's nonsense. People who try to act like Kobe was close to Shaq while they were together are just ridiculous. Penny isn't even close to a great player in comparison to Shaq or anyone else of note. He had a couple of seasons where he was a relatively good player. His career isn't defined by what Nike made him out to be.


Kobe was at worst, the 3rd best player in the league. Top 3 being some combo of Duncan, Shaq and Kobe.

Wade was a top 3 player when Shaq won a title with him. 

How can you say Penny wasn't great? That shows ignorance or a lack of perspective on how good he was.

Before his injuries, take a look at his PER rating.
Penny's stats
Rookie: 17.4 PER
2nd year: 20.8 PER
3rd year: 24.6 PER

Big improvement in his game every year.

lots of quickness and good defender due to this ridiculous length. A pure 6'7 point guard with quickness, speed, length and ball handing. He could have been putting numbers very similar to LeBron if he was never injured.

Everyone gives Shaq too much credit for everything because he has a big mouth.


----------



## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Anyone who mentions Kobe in the same breath with Duncan and prime Shaq can not be expected to be taken seriously. You can try all you like, but that's never going to fly. It's so ridiculously inaccurate that there's no need to respond.


----------



## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Another stat Dwight has over Shaq. 5 straight 1000+ rebound seasons. He is in pretty good company as well. Take a look.

Bill Russell 12
Wilt Chaimberlain 10
Bob Pettit 9
Elvin Hayes 7
Bill Bridges 6
Jerry Lucas 6
Walt Bellamy 6
Dwight Howard 5
Moses Malone 5
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 5
Wes Unseld 5
Willis Reed 5
Nate Thurmond 5

I would say if Howard doesn't get hurt, he could hit 10+ straight easily.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/orlando-magic/os-bianchi-column-0404-20100403,0,5967148.column



> In fact, I almost spewed Bud Light out of my nose the other night after the Magic-Nuggets game when Magic color analyst Matt Guokas was talking to play-by-play man David Steele during their post-game wrap-up. *That's when Guokas dropped the bombshell and actually said Howard is a better defensive center than Russell* and, therefore, the greatest defensive big man in the history of the game.
> 
> Is this basketball blasphemy by a homer broadcaster or is it intrepid analysis by an astute observer of the game?
> 
> ...


All of this is coming from a guy who played with Wilt & Kareem, and against Bill Russel. But for perspective, he has also seen practically every game of Dwight Howard's as an anylist. People saying Dwight is not a good defender need a check-up from the neck up. Defense is the LAST area that you want to ridicule Dwight. I still cant get over that Alonzo Mourning comment made early in this thread... :nonono:



Diable said:


> I'm not buying that Howard is even close to Alonzo Mourning. Exactly how could he be. Mourning was a better defender than Howard is *and it's not really debateable.*


:nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono:


----------



## MojoPin (Oct 10, 2008)

Diable said:


> Anyone who mentions Kobe in the same breath with Duncan and prime Shaq can not be expected to be taken seriously. You can try all you like, but that's never going to fly. It's so ridiculously inaccurate that there's no need to respond.


Are you trolling? I really hope so. If you don't think Kobe was top five in any of the years he won with Shaq, then I don't know what to tell you. I mean wow... You're letting emotions cloud your reason.

:funny:


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm sorry but there's just no use for this thread. I'm not saying Dwight isn't a huge impact player but people don't really understand how well rounded and effective Shaq, or Hakeem, or even Robinson or Ewing were in their primes.

It's just not happening because he's too limited offensively. And let's not even go to that youth thing because what he's missing just can't be taught.

Now watch this be paraphrased into me saying he's a bum.


----------



## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

Dre™;6248674 said:


> I'm sorry but there's just no use for this thread. I'm not saying
> Dwight isn't a huge impact player but people don't really understand how well rounded and effective Shaq, or Hakeem, or even
> Robinson or Ewing were in their primes. It's just not happening because he's too limited offensively. And let's not even go to that youth thing because what he's missing just can't be taught.
> 
> Now watch this be paraphrased into me saying he's a bum.


You said it.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Impressive...


----------



## michelangelo (Apr 29, 2009)

The OP is clearly trolling and has been successful in getting everyone's panties in a bunch. D Howard is a charismatic figure, great pitchman, entertaining dunker and a physical freak of nature who can block shots, rebound and make a half dozen garbage baskets a game. 

He's an advertising icon with a great smile and an impressive physique. He exudes a positive, fun and likable energy, so naturally people are drawn to him. But this doesn't make him a great player. He's a pretty good center in an era bereft of quality centers. There are plenty of great big men (Dirk, Duncan, Garnett, among others), but they don't play center. 

But to compare D with Shaq, much less Bill Russell is just fantastically pointless and inane. 



Dre™;6248674 said:


> I'm sorry but there's just no use for this thread. I'm not saying Dwight isn't a huge impact player but people don't really understand how well rounded and effective Shaq, or Hakeem, or even Robinson or Ewing were in their primes.
> 
> It's just not happening because he's too limited offensively. And let's not even go to that youth thing because what he's missing just can't be taught.
> 
> Now watch this be paraphrased into me saying he's a bum.


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

John Havlicek on comparing Howard to Russel; gotta agree with him especially after those advanced stats about Howard's block value:



> NBA.com: Dwight Howard could end up leading the league in rebounds, blocked shots, field goal percentage and double-doubles this season. Is he a modern version of Bill Russell?
> 
> JH: I imagine in today's game, because he's the only shot-blocker that there is. You could compare him, yeah, but the comparison falls short. Russell intimidated a lot of people to make them change their shot. At times, he wouldn't even think about blocking their shot. He wanted to make them aware of his presence. Then during the latter part of the game, he would strike. There are times when he would decoy people to think that they were able to get their shot off. He might let them get the shot off so that they weren't hesitant. Then at the end of the game, he would say, 'Oh, this time I'm gonna get him.' He waited for his chances. He was so smart. Guys today just go up and block a ball. Russell would fake a block sometimes and do other things that Dwight Howard doesn't do. Russell would run people down from behind, much like LeBron (James) does. LeBron's the only guy who runs people down from behind, it seems. He's made some incredible plays this year by doing that. Russell did that on more than one occasion almost every game. You don't see Dwight Howard running down a person from behind.
> 
> http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/fran_blinebury/04/08/havlicek.qanda/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

"You don't see Dwight Howard running down a person from behind"... 

:laugh: Is he kidding??


----------



## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Dude's 70 years old. 

And he's a Celtic. He's just as biased as Matt Goukas saying Dwight is better than Russell but because he's a "big name" he gets more spotlight (read: cover story on nba.com). I'm not claiming Hondo's right or wrong, but I am arguing Goukas is more credible. He played with and against Wilt and Russel, and is exposed to today's NBA 24/7 as a broadcaster (an above average one, if i'd say so myself).

And yeah, Diable. Prime Kobe is on the same level as Prime Duncan or Shaq. They're different because they play different positions but they're on the same level. Do some homework.


----------



## JT3000 (Nov 3, 2004)

michelangelo said:


> The OP is clearly trolling and has been successful in getting everyone's panties in a bunch. D Howard is a charismatic figure, great pitchman, entertaining dunker and a physical freak of nature who can block shots, rebound and make a half dozen garbage baskets a game.
> 
> He's an advertising icon with a great smile and an impressive physique. He exudes a positive, fun and likable energy, so naturally people are drawn to him. But this doesn't make him a great player. He's a pretty good center in an era bereft of quality centers. There are plenty of great big men (Dirk, Duncan, Garnett, among others), but they don't play center.


Those guys are all currently inferior to Dwight, regardless of which position they play, and have been for several seasons now, so I have no idea where you were going with this one. Dwight's impact on the court makes him a great player. No one cares about advertising. Just ask LeBron if being a puppet did him any good last year.



Jakain said:


> John Havlicek


Boston Celtic. Comments null and void.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Blue Magic said:


> "You don't see Dwight Howard running down a person from behind"...
> 
> :laugh: Is he kidding??


Speechless. Maybe Hondo needs to get the eyes looked at. I've personally seen Howard chase down blocks several times. I guess because it's not on ESPN and LBJ it didn't happen.


----------



## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

From an Alonzo Mourning interview in Slam



> SLAM: You were just saying you loved the Playoffs. The games a little bit different now, a little softer, at least in my eyes; what do you think?
> AM: Yeah, it is compared to when myself and Patrick [Ewing] and David Robinson back in the early 90’s, oh yeah. It was a lot more of a physical game back then. That’s how I was accustomed to playing. And you’re right, they don’t have that anymore. It’s a more perimeter oriented game, there’s not as many big men in it any more—at least impactful big men. I think it’s a lost art. So I keep telling my son, Don’t try to be a guard. Try to be something of a commodity. Big men are a dime a dozen now, you know, they are. If you can learn to shoot a hook shot with both hands, rebound and block shots, you can play for a good 20 years, all you gotta do is stay healthy. Do that, you can play for twenty years. (Laughs) You know what I’m saying?
> 
> SLAM: Definitely do. If Alonzo Mourning was 20 and at Georgetown about to come out in the 2010 Draft…
> ...


http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2010/03/still-cant-stop-mourning/


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Lol, Zo's teams were always under-achievers. He sounds cocky, which is understandable coming from him, but he still is definitely exaggerating the seperation a bit. He was definitely not a 'much better' scorer than Dwight. His highest scoring season was like 2 more ppg, at a much lower efficiency... He was smaller than Dwight, and although he had a more 'diverse' offensive repertoire, I wouldn't necessarily say that makes it 'better'. He just demanded the ball more, shot more, drew less fouls... And this point in their career, he won less. 

I'm sorry, I just cant picture Zo leading a cast of Alston(fill-in PG),Lee(a rookie),Hedo,&Lewis, to the finals... I just cant see it. Zo played on some decent teams, and never did anything substantial until way past his prime. I think Dwight's impact is bigger, so I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Maybe Zo's peak year was a tad bit better than Dwight's so far, but I see Dwight surpassing him when it's all said done...


----------



## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> Lol, Zo's teams were always under-achievers. He sounds cocky, which is understandable coming from him, but he still is definitely exaggerating the seperation a bit. He was definitely not a 'much better' scorer than Dwight. His highest scoring season was like 2 more ppg, at a much lower efficiency... He was smaller than Dwight, and although he had a more 'diverse' offensive repertoire, I wouldn't necessarily say that makes it 'better'. He just demanded the ball more, shot more, drew less fouls... And this point in their career, he won less.
> 
> I'm sorry, I just cant picture Zo leading a cast of Alston(fill-in PG),Lee(a rookie),Hedo,&Lewis, to the finals... I just cant see it. Zo played on some decent teams, and never did anything substantial until way past his prime. I think Dwight's impact is bigger, so I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Maybe Zo's peak year was a tad bit better than Dwight's so far, but I see Dwight surpassing him when it's all said done...


Zo was on some of the slowest paced teams ever. 80 points was a high scoring night back then. That's his point, times have changed; the way refs call fouls and the amount of talent at the center position leads him to believe that he would be even more dominant, and I agree.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

myst said:


> Zo was on some of the slowest paced teams ever. 80 points was a high scoring night back then. That's his point, times have changed; the way refs call fouls and the amount of talent at the center position leads him to believe that he would be even more dominant, and I agree.


Zo was also allowed to play extremely physical in his hey day. If Zo was playing 38 minutes a night in todays game, no doubt he would be sitting on the bench due to foul trouble. You can't compare eras across one another like there isn't a lot of things to be considered that would effect both players game.


----------



## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

23AJ said:


> Zo was also allowed to play extremely physical in his hey day. If Zo was playing 38 minutes a night in todays game, no doubt he would be sitting on the bench due to foul trouble. You can't compare eras across one another like there isn't a lot of things to be considered that would effect both players game.


It wouldn't be hard to adapt to the rule changes. His defense may have gone down a bit because of rule changes, but his offense would have still gone way up.


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Zo played until 2008. He along with the other oldies like Shaq and to an extent Duncan have all adapted throughout the various rules changes.


----------



## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Right now Howard has 8523 points (around 6000 away from Zo's career total), 6177 rebounds (less than a 1000 away from Zo's career total) and 1041 blocks (1300 away from Zo's career total) and Howard has done all of this by his 6th season at the age of 24. He will pass Zo's career rebound total next season and the rest with in the next 4 or 5 years before he even reaches his 30th birthday.

Howard will go down as a better big man than Zo and that is a fact.


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Idunkonyou said:


> Right now Howard has 8523 points (around 6000 away from Zo's career total), 6177 rebounds (less than a 1000 away from Zo's career total) and 1041 blocks (1300 away from Zo's career total) and Howard has done all of this by his 6th season at the age of 24. He will pass Zo's career rebound total next season and the rest with in the next 4 or 5 years before he even reaches his 30th birthday.
> 
> Howard will go down as a better big man than Zo and that is a fact.


He could get those superior career numbers but unless he improves his overall game and his mental weaknesses like committing too many technicals and fouls; there will be a case for Zo imo.

And its not a fact, its merely opinion. And as athletically dependent as Dwight Howard is, hopefully he doesn't endure any serious injury in the coming years however just about every franchise big seems to unfortunately come across such.


----------



## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Jakain said:


> He could get those superior career numbers but unless he improves his overall game and his mental weaknesses like committing too many technicals and fouls; there will be a case for Zo imo.
> 
> And its not a fact, its merely opinion. And as athletically dependent as Dwight Howard is, hopefully he doesn't endure any serious injury in the coming years however just about every franchise big seems to unfortunately come across such.


Well Howard has only missed 3 games in 6 years so he is one of the most durable big men I have ever seen. Of course I'm sure you are hoping he gets hurt every day. We would hate to see Howard prove all his haters wrong now wouldn't we.

Any way, Howard is set to become a top 30 all time points, top 15 all time rebounds, top 15 all time blocks and top 5 all time FG% player. You telling me if Howard does that you would still hold Zo over him? That is laughable, if not down right homerish.


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Idunkonyou said:


> Well Howard has only missed 3 games in 6 years so he is one of the most durable big men I have ever seen. Of course I'm sure you are hoping he gets hurt every day. We would hate to see Howard prove all his haters wrong now wouldn't we.


Compared to the talent nowadays like Yao and Oden, he does seem pretty damn durable. And no I don't wish to see Howard injured - just seems like an inevitability for most franchise bigs.



> Any way, Howard is set to become a top 30 all time points, top 15 all time rebounds, top 15 all time blocks and top 5 all time FG% player. You telling me if Howard does that you would still hold Zo over him? That is laughable, if not down right homerish.


I could care less about Miami and anytime you accuse of someone being homerish it is laughable since you're about as biased as it gets around here. There's a lot more to a player than their stats such as the context that Howard gets most of them simply isn't as impressive compared to past and current greats (worst block value, 1 in 4 blocks of his is a goaltend, etc). Its not fault that he lives in this weak era of NBA bigs but it is what it is. 

He is and will be considered a great player. But greater than Zo and the rest of the prominent golden era of bigs? Time will tell but not likely.


----------



## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Jakain said:


> I could care less about Miami and anytime you accuse of someone being homerish it is laughable since you're about as biased as it gets around here. There's a lot more to a player than their stats such as the context that Howard gets most of them simply isn't as impressive compared to past and current greats (worst block value, 1 in 4 blocks of his is a goaltend, etc). Its not fault that he lives in this weak era of NBA bigs but it is what it is.
> 
> He is and will be considered a great player. But greater than Zo and the rest of the prominent golden era of bigs? Time will tell but not likely.


Yeah if Howard wins championships, MVPs, DPOTY awards (already has 1 and will have his 2nd in a few), plus gets the whole 30/15/15/5 thing, I'd say he will go down as one of the greatest big men of all time.


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Idunkonyou said:


> Yeah if Howard wins championships, MVPs, DPOTY awards (already has 1 and will have his 2nd in a few), plus gets the whole 30/15/15/5 thing, I'd say he will go down as one of the greatest big men of all time.


Howard will likely win a few more DPOY's and will get close to those stats, as for MVP's and championships time will tell but he's got a good chance this season for one of the latter.

He'll definitely go down as one of the great bigs the league has seen, but likely not among the greatest. No real knock, still impressive - but maybe he will get a legitimate offensive game and silence his doubters.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jakain said:


> Compared to the talent nowadays like Yao and Oden, he does seem pretty damn durable. And no I don't wish to see Howard injured - just seems like an inevitability for most franchise bigs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If Dwight stays on the current path, it IS likely that he would finish somewhere above Zo. Only way he wouldn't was if he suffered some kind of injury, like Jakain said(knock wood). This is not a diss @ ZO as I definitely respect Zo. I like him as a player and person, but I dont see where he is better than Dwight. I'm trying to be objective here, but Dwight is bigger physically, probably a tad more athletic, and just a more physical player to handle all around. Zo was a tad more versatile on the offensive end, but it's not like he was an elite scorer @ any point such as DRob, Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt or Ewing... 

His best year scoring was 22.5ppg @ 55.1% efficiency, which is hardly better than 20.7ppg @ 59.9% eff. His best defensive years were all before defensive 3 sec was implemented in '01-'02... Another concern with Zo is he never took a team to the Finals as 'the man', while Dwight has already done that... Zo needed Shaq, Wade, Gary, and Co when he was past his prime to get a ring(And I was pulling for him, so dont make this out like I dont like Zo). I'm just saying that it looks like Dwight is on a better pace than Zo. If we're talking about Zo specifically, it's definitely likely that he will get passed up imo. As for Ewing, DRob, Shaq, Hakeem, etc... Dwight still needs to get better if he wants to pass any of those guys... I dont think anybody knowledgeable is saying Dwight is better or more accomplished _on both ends of the floor_ than any of those guys rite now, though...


----------



## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> If Dwight stays on the current path, it IS likely that he would finish somewhere above Zo. Only way he wouldn't was if he suffered some kind of injury, like Jakain said(knock wood). This is not a diss @ ZO as I definitely respect Zo. I like him as a player and person, but I dont see where he is better than Dwight. I'm trying to be objective here, but Dwight is bigger physically, probably a tad more athletic, and just a more physical player to handle all around. Zo was a tad more versatile on the offensive end, but it's not like he was an elite scorer @ any point such as DRob, Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt or Ewing...
> 
> His best year scoring was 22.5ppg @ 55.1% efficiency, which is hardly better than 20.7ppg @ 59.9% eff. His best defensive years were all before defensive 3 sec was implemented in '01-'02... Another concern with Zo is he never took a team to the Finals as 'the man', while Dwight has already done that... Zo needed Shaq, Wade, Gary, and Co when he was past his prime to get a ring(And I was pulling for him, so dont make this out like I dont like Zo). I'm just saying that it looks like Dwight is on a better pace than Zo. If we're talking about Zo specifically, it's definitely likely that he will get passed up imo. As for Ewing, DRob, Shaq, Hakeem, etc... Dwight still needs to get better if he wants to pass any of those guys... I dont think anybody knowledgeable is saying Dwight is better or more accomplished _on both ends of the floor_ than any of those guys rite now, though...


Dwight will probably pass Zo in the long run. But one thing I will say is that Zo dominated and took over games a lot more often then Dwight does.


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Dwight's career will be better than Zo's. However his offense has a long way to go before he has a peak value thats comparable due to Zo being competitive at Dwight's strengths in addition to being on another level offensively.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

I dont think he was @ another level offensively, though. That's the problem... I guess that's where we disagree.


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

He can basically do what Dwight does now but he's also got a jumpshot which makes these kind of bigs basically unguardable like Amar'e nowadays. Howard can improve but he doesn't seem as talented as the other guys out of the gate (but also younger), however Ewing took his game from another level from his college days to the NBA. He too used to be limited offensively.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Ewing made a leap offensively when he was 27 or 28, which is why earlier in the thread I said Dwight could have a chance to pass him if he made a similar improvement at that stage. But like I said, he still needs to put in work. As far as the jumpshot, that's great. Mourning certainly had a more diverse repertoire, But at what point does more diverse become better or more effective?? You could ask the same questions today with guys like Carmelo or Kobe...


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

You should take the more diverse player with all things being equal and having a big with some range makes the team more dynamic and flexible. Howard doesn't have an offensive game around the rim on the level of these guys either, he's still got a lot of time though.


----------



## michelangelo (Apr 29, 2009)

True, but Dwight is taller and more athletically gifted. He should be posting strong rebounding and blocked shot totals based upon his strength and vertical alone. 

Zo will be remembered as a legend not necessarily for his statistics (which were very good) but because of his heart and desire. The man was a warrior who gave you max effort during every game. Plus, his comeback was a great story. 

Dwight often looks confused, frustrated and clumsy, both on offense and defense. 

D is a terrific player and I would very much like to see him help carry the magic to a victory over crybaby Lebron's C's, but if you actually watch this guy play rather than look at his stats, it's impossible to rank him among the game's great centers. 



Idunkonyou said:


> Right now Howard has 8523 points (around 6000 away from Zo's career total), 6177 rebounds (less than a 1000 away from Zo's career total) and 1041 blocks (1300 away from Zo's career total) and Howard has done all of this by his 6th season at the age of 24. He will pass Zo's career rebound total next season and the rest with in the next 4 or 5 years before he even reaches his 30th birthday.
> 
> Howard will go down as a better big man than Zo and that is a fact.


----------



## michelangelo (Apr 29, 2009)

Patrick had offensive skills from the very start. Even when he was playing at Georgetown and "only" scoring in the low to mid teens, you could tell he had the skillset to become one of the game's dominant centers on both ends. 

I've never even gotten the inkling that D has great offensive potential. He can be a good offensive center, and perhaps one day average 22 or perhaps even 23 points a game. But it will still be an UGLY 22 or 23 points a game. 

He currently does not have, doesn't seem to be developing, and shows no potential of developing, a go-to move. A fadeaway 12 foot jumper, dream shake, drop step layup, drop step reverse layup, jump hook, sky hook, nothing. Not even the infamous blown layup to pad your offensive rebounding numbers followed by a garbage putback layup move. 

The kid's got a great physique, super dunks, a charismatic personality, a great team and coach, and a plethora of bad commercials on his resume. I will not be surprised in the least if he wins a championship with the magic. 

But none of that makes him a skilled offensive center. 




Blue Magic said:


> Ewing made a leap offensively when he was 27 or 28, which is why earlier in the thread I said Dwight could have a chance to pass him if he made a similar improvement at that stage. But like I said, he still needs to put in work. As far as the jumpshot, that's great. Mourning certainly had a more diverse repertoire, But at what point does more diverse become better or more effective?? You could ask the same questions today with guys like Carmelo or Kobe...


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

michelangelo said:


> Patrick had offensive skills from the very start. Even when he was playing at Georgetown and "only" scoring in the low to mid teens, you could tell he had the skillset to become one of the game's dominant centers on both ends.
> 
> I've never even gotten the inkling that D has great offensive potential. He can be a good offensive center, and perhaps one day average 22 or perhaps even 23 points a game. But it will still be an UGLY 22 or 23 points a game.
> 
> ...


Dude, he has all those moves in the bold. His pinch post reverse pivot spin, is arguable the most dominant post move in the game today(which is why he demands a double)... He can play in the post. 

Only problem with him is range. He has great hands, and can finish with both hands out to to 7-8 ft... He doesn't have a jumper tho, your right, but that's about it... If not having a jumper = nothing, than that's pretty high standards... But I assume you dont watch many Magic games, as your making Dwight sound like Ben Wallace...


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Here you go Michelangelo:


----------



## michelangelo (Apr 29, 2009)

Yeah, I've seen him play. I hope he can drop step, sky hook and dream shake his way to more than 5 points a game in the playoffs in the future if the Magic are going to make a title run like I hope they will.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

True, Bobcats just have good D tho. It's gonna be tough for Dwight cuz I dont even think he played bad last game, he just couldn't get many shots up(partly due to foul trouble, but mostly due to CHA strategy imo)... He's not one to force up shots though, especially when he's surrounded by shooters. He's letting the game come to him more this year, which in turn resulted in his ppg down abit, but he's a team player so I dont think he cares... He's not a stat chaser. As long as the team is happy and winning he's good. Hopefully when it's winning time he can step up & score or do whatever it takes to win, That's all I care about.


----------

