# What do you think of this?



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

ESPN Chat wrote:



> Andrew (NYC): Steph and Larry Brown have really come to a breaking point in thier relationship. Conventional Wisdom is saying that the Knicks will shop Marbury, but what are the odds that Brown will go instead, since Steph is so untradeable?
> 
> John Hollinger: Zero. What you are seeing is Brown's manipulative genius at work. He didn't want Marbury but Isiah didn't really want to trade him, so Brown (mis)managed the situation perfectly to the point that the Knicks HAVE TO trade him. Now next year he'll have a team that he'll feel like coaching.


To me this sounds about right because it does make sense , LB has basically positioned a team in 2 parts , the ones he likes and the ones he doesn't marbury is obviously in the pile that he doesn't like and has been trying his darndest to show it.


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## Krstic All-Star (Mar 9, 2005)

Makes sense to me too. My question is what kind of value can he realistically expect to get for the parts he doesn't want? They're all damaged goods...


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

And Larry SINGLEHANDIDLY made them damaged goods. If I was Zeke I'd screw with LB like LB screwed with Marbury and Jamal. Make him feel uncomfortable and not in control to the point where he will quit AND THEREFORE NOT HAVE TO BE PAID HIS CONTRACT FURTHER.


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

Isn't that what LB always does, force players into submission?


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Wrong....*

#1) Marbury never was as good as he thought he was and would never be accused by anyone with a brain of being a winner, a team first kind of guy, or a cornerstone of a franchise. 

#2) JC has never played a better all around game than he is currently playing. I have to assume that the wild cross-overs and ill-advised shots sandwiched around no defensive effort stints up the court are missed by you?

#3) MOST players that played under him have the utmost respect for him as a coach. Most of the rest are either not winners or can't play for anyone with discipline.

#4) LB forces players tp play within a structure.....HIS structure. It happens to be what good coaches do.


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: Wrong....*



alphadog said:


> #1) Marbury never was as good as he thought he was and would never be accused by anyone with a brain of being a winner, a team first kind of guy, or a cornerstone of a franchise.
> 
> #2) JC has never played a better all around game than he is currently playing. I have to assume that the wild cross-overs and ill-advised shots sandwiched around no defensive effort stints up the court are missed by you?
> 
> ...


So what about Mike D'Antoni?


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

i have always found LB to be an excellent coach , but this season has been a horrible job by him.

there is no rotation.

half the players have no roles .

the other half haven't meshed with the sys. (except for jalen)

the defense has been just as bad as last year and the offense has been an eyesore, much worse than last year a fact everyone can agree on ...and they had no plays under herb just the pick and roll.

to top it off the knicks have been a mess in the news due to larry's bashing.

i dont think there has been a worse coaching job in recent memory by a 1st year guy.


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## Chinatownballer (Oct 13, 2005)

*Re: Wrong....*



alphadog said:


> #1) Marbury never was as good as he thought he was and would never be accused by anyone with a brain of being a winner, a team first kind of guy, or a cornerstone of a franchise.
> 
> #2) JC has never played a better all around game than he is currently playing. I have to assume that the wild cross-overs and ill-advised shots sandwiched around no defensive effort stints up the court are missed by you?
> 
> ...


Good coaches also make the most out of their players and find the right people with chemistry to play at the same time...

Larry Brown's rotations most of the time seem like complete accidents. We had a solid rotation for six games when we were winning and then LB seems to forget that he has players who try night in and night out (Larry Brown type of players) and he plays the veterans! Yes, he plays the same lacadaisical veterans who he accuses of not trying hard enough when he has Nate, DLee, Qyntel, JButler. Why, especially when the season is tanked does LB refuse to play the very players who are ready to play his way big minutes???!!!

Is stubborn old Larry Brown actually giving in to Zekes requests as to who he should play? There are units that LB could play that have teamwork and hustle aka the youngins but for some reason LB "forces players tp play within a structure" and we're not talking about the players that are willing to learn his way we're talking about Starbury, Francis, and the other veterans who either don't try or simply don't have the talent.

One player who you criticize above i have something to say for. JCraw is all the things you stated above BUT what you have to consider is that he is willing to learn, he has shown that he can help on the boards, he isn't afraid of taking big shots and he doesnt have an ego the size of Stephs lightbulbhead! Despite the fact that i hate his game and i think he's an inconsistent **** i think Crawford is someone who deserves to play simply because he has the character that alot of our Knicks seem to lack. If LB is truly as great a coach as people say then he can make the most out of Crawford's game giving him the touches when he's on and keeping the ball far far away from him when he's off. One thing Crawford can't do is play the point. Give him open Js and i'm happy. Ask him to be our floor general and i become a Nets fan (not quite but you see my frustration).

LB has got to wake up and play those who try and bench the *******s who play with no heart. As patient as i've been with Steph and as much as i realize he was a great point guard for the stretch of 6games i also realise that he's a baby. He plays well when everyones pampering him and treating him like a king and he cries to the press when LB criticizes him. Instead of relying on an unstable firecracker like Steph who could go off at any minute we have to give credit where its deserved, characterwise.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*D'antoni has a system*

..and Marbury didn't...or wouldn't fit in it. It's just different than LBs. Don't forget...the Suns have mega talent and haven't won anything yet. Even Dallas has had to emphasize more defense to be able to compete against the top levels. Every great team has a system that they adhere to. No team is successful just turning guys loose to do their thing.

I also think LB has done a poor job but I don't know who could have done much better with this group of misfits. I take most exception with his lack of play for Lee but after seeing how Nate has improved by playing under LBs rules, and how Frye is rapidly becoming a more complete player, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt regarding Lee's playing time. He is trying to teach him a new position (and the reality IS that Lee prolly needs to be a sf to be a real factor in the league) and it's nearly imnpossible to implement it during the season. I suspect Lee will do everything Ariza did not do.....improve his handle and his shot(already better than Ariza's on both counts) and be in the running for starter's minutes next year. Even Curry is making baby strides while trying to play a different way. All the guys that are trying to play Larry's way ARE getting better. Hell, even Marbury was playing great before he got banged up....he just didn't like playing that way. I wouldn't be too hard on LB until he has players who are willing to play the right way. It might take a couple of years but Mike James and Harrington would be a great start


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

Da Grinch said:


> To me this sounds about right because it does make sense , LB has basically positioned a team in 2 parts , the ones he likes and the ones he doesn't marbury is obviously in the pile that he doesn't like and has been trying his darndest to show it.


The funny thing is, my dad's been saying this ever since they started losing. It's impossible that we can go from a badly mediocre team to a totally bad mediocre team, that at least played into the postseason once since Steph was here. Now we're at the bottom, but hey Stephon's only going to stay here to hinder our progress, so good riddens please.


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: D'antoni has a system*



alphadog said:


> ..and Marbury didn't...or wouldn't fit in it. It's just different than LBs. Don't forget...the Suns have mega talent and haven't won anything yet. Even Dallas has had to emphasize more defense to be able to compete against the top levels. Every great team has a system that they adhere to. No team is successful just turning guys loose to do their thing.
> 
> I also think LB has done a poor job but I don't know who could have done much better with this group of misfits. I take most exception with his lack of play for Lee but after seeing how Nate has improved by playing under LBs rules, and how Frye is rapidly becoming a more complete player, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt regarding Lee's playing time. He is trying to teach him a new position (and the reality IS that Lee prolly needs to be a sf to be a real factor in the league) and it's nearly imnpossible to implement it during the season. I suspect Lee will do everything Ariza did not do.....improve his handle and his shot(already better than Ariza's on both counts) and be in the running for starter's minutes next year. Even Curry is making baby strides while trying to play a different way. All the guys that are trying to play Larry's way ARE getting better. Hell, even Marbury was playing great before he got banged up....he just didn't like playing that way. I wouldn't be too hard on LB until he has players who are willing to play the right way. It might take a couple of years but Mike James and Harrington would be a great start


That's a very good point.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Alpha ,

basketball isn't rocket science when you break it down to its basics.

the knicks stink on defense as they did last year and they are just as bad.

on offense the team has added offensive players that basically puts them on par with any in the league.

how many teams can really say they can have the weapons the knicks have.

marbury , crawford francis , curry, frye Qwoods, Qrich , butler mo taylor david lee, nate and jalen rose, the only guys on the roster who aren't good offensive players are malik rose and jerome james.

the ones who aren't ball handlers and pure scorers are just guys who convert baskets at a very high rate(lee is shooting .613 from the field and butler is at .523...why dont these guys get no real pt while malik rose and his .362 fg % keeps piling on the minutes)

i understand they cant defend ...even though thats supposed to be LB's forte but why cant they score?

the can shoot , (JC nate jalen qwoods and francis all shoot at least 37% from 3 point range as knicks with Qrich at an ok 35%....) they outrebound their opponents by 3 boards a game(4th in the league in rebounding margin) and with 13 off. rebounds a game they have to be among the league leaders in that regard.

and they can pass , outside of curry all the players are at least avg. passers and in rose, marbury, JC francis and nate they always have their share of guys who can pass to easy buckets and create high % shots ...

individually they can do all these things but 2gether they cant score if their life depended on it.

i understand Larry's a teacher , but his job is to win games not hold bi weekly basketball camps for professionals , and when he lucks into something that works (david lee starting and then a 6 game winning streak) , he goes away from it as soon as they lose a game. i dont see whats the lesson in that. He's not God faith in him is not blind nor should it be and when he does some of the screwy things he does it causes questions not just by us but by his team as well .

i hope when IT gets him his low post defender he finally gets to coaching and stops with these silly games.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Grinch...*

Its more rocket science than you think. If it was easy, every team would be good. Getting guys who do one thing or another well is fine, but molding them into a unit with one brain and one goal is very hard. Marbury is a perfect example. He is one of the best 1 on 1 players in the league but only plays d when he feels like it. He also has no real feel for running a team and getting players involved (either that, or he doesn't care to). NO coach has won with him as a lead guy, so do we blame LB? Not in my mind. Talent is easy to get.....unselfishness and players that play together and self-sacrifice are another. NY just doesn't have enough of these kind of guys. A different coach with a different approach may have won a few more games enabling more of the current cast to stick, but would that really be going in a positive direction? Again, I think not. IT made it his quest to secure talented but flawed players with the intent of be able to mold them into a team. Since most of these guys came with serious baggage or at least questions about the ability to be a good team mate, it was a significant (and poor, in my opinion) gamble. We are now required to rid ourselves of several players and try to reconstruct the team yet again...this time with the right kind of players. Don't expect to be contending next year....look for improvement and stability.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Grinch...*



alphadog said:


> Its more rocket science than you think. If it was easy, every team would be good. Getting guys who do one thing or another well is fine, but molding them into a unit with one brain and one goal is very hard. Marbury is a perfect example. He is one of the best 1 on 1 players in the league but only plays d when he feels like it. He also has no real feel for running a team and getting players involved (either that, or he doesn't care to). NO coach has won with him as a lead guy, so do we blame LB? Not in my mind. Talent is easy to get.....unselfishness and players that play together and self-sacrifice are another. NY just doesn't have enough of these kind of guys. A different coach with a different approach may have won a few more games enabling more of the current cast to stick, but would that really be going in a positive direction? Again, I think not. IT made it his quest to secure talented but flawed players with the intent of be able to mold them into a team. Since most of these guys came with serious baggage or at least questions about the ability to be a good team mate, it was a significant (and poor, in my opinion) gamble. We are now required to rid ourselves of several players and try to reconstruct the team yet again...this time with the right kind of players. Don't expect to be contending next year....look for improvement and stability.


i never thought steph was a lead guy , and i've said so on this board many times , he needs either a guy better than him on the roster to defer to , or a bunch of talented guys on his team so the other team cant key on him.

IT seems to be hedging his bets on this one....on one hand he has cury and frye 2 guys who can be considered possible #1 options some day...at the same time he has gathered a bunch of guys who are offensive threats.

but again its not IT's job to make them a team its larry brown's, its larry brown's job to make sys. where the parts fit and the team is in a position to win.

pho. cant play defense either , but they win ...washington cant play defense ...but they win...dallas couldn't play defense for years and they were winning 50-60 games a year doing it on offense.

if marbury doesn't play defense to larry's standard then larry should bench him. and that goes to anyone on the team , LB has more than enough guys on the team doing what he wants to play the ones who are doing what he asks ....thats not too hard , the problem is larry doesn't know what he wants . 

he has no rotation , doesn't know who he wants to play and everyone is unhappy because they aren't being led in a position to win...they are being led to the slaughter.

i have watched marbury his whole career and he has never been on a team this bad , why are these knicks so bad ?

outside of crawford butler and the rooks every member of the team has been on a playoff team and the rooks were very successful college players last year, most have been on 50+win teams and had important parts on those squads.

they aren't the lowlife sefish guys you make them out to be .

malik rose ...winner 
Qrich ...according to Brown himself a selfless guy and a leader
Jalen another guy brown wanted for his leadership and ballhandling abilities'
David Lee ...seems like a winner to me 
Marbury has had problems with brown
crawford another guy Brown has lauded as a guy doing what is asked
Curry has his flaws but selfish isn't one of them
nate ...brown has complimented how he has worked to rein himself in ...not a selfish guy at all
frye ... a crown jewel of the org.
QWoods ...brown loves this guy had IT bring him in, any problem he has , is brown's concern
jackie butler ...not at all a problem , another guy who is a "brown guy"
jerome james , brown has to like him because there is no real reason to play this guy... at all.
francis a guy whom brown likes ...even though his rep is worse than marbury's, he even wanted to trade JC for him.
mo taylor another Brown guy 

thats the roster , the only guy brown is really having a problem with is marbury and , its really brown's fault , he was a fool to bash stephon in the paper , you cant train players through the media in ny and he should have known better .

most of the guys with Bad reps have changed their games to fit brown's wishes like mo taylor and crawford and brown is actually happy with them because he likes to teach.

most of the guys with bad reps are guys brown wanted here in jalen francis and woods , the others who brown inherited have bent over backwards for brown , 1/3 of the roster has been changed since brown took over and the team is as apathetic as ever, even though brown signed off on all of these players as guys he wanted.

at some point people have to realize that its not brown's job to critc the roster its his job to coach it ...herb williams had a much worse team last season and got alot more out of them ....you have a team of guys in their prime or are young players and almost all of them are having down seasons offensively ...it cant seriously be because they are selfish that they cant hit shots , the defense isn't good , but why cant this team score, if it were and avg. off. unit they would be at least a 30 win team like last year , in reality they should be among the best in the league on offense.

when was the last time you saw frye in a pick and pop?

a staple play from last year and was even used somewhat this season early on ...i haven't really seen it in months and this of course correlates with frye's demise as a player...this is a guy brown said shoots like allan houston early in the season but he gets no plays designed for him.

is that what good coaches do?

and yet i see malik rose get pick and pops? is that smart? is that what a coaching genius does?

i'm sorry i see mismangement here on a gigantic level i cant even begin to blame the player for not rising above it. i cant even blame IT for anything but hiring brown at this point.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Coaches coach and players play*

That is the way it works. I agree with Marbury not being a lead guy but if you think for a moment he would be OK with that, you haven't been watching and reading. Some guys are trying and some aren't. Jalen has always been a loser and a distraction. Malik is a winner but a ROLE PLAYER. Other guys are incomplete players. ITs job is to assemble a team...LBs is to coach them. If the pieces don't fit, you can't succeed. Basketball is a great game...the greatest, but it depends on the harmony of the parts to be successful. No team Steph has been a part of has been Harmonious. NOcoach can win with this mess and I don't care about winning 50 games....I want to compete for a title and teams thast don't play TOUGH defense are relegated to the list of also-rans. Phenix wins nothing until they learn this. The Playoffs are a different season....one in which teams find it harder to score. Last years finals? The 2 toughest defensive teams oin the league. Go down the list of past Champs....how many did not play great defense?

Larry DOES bench players but guys making 18 mil are hard to bench. Plus, the fact is that these guys are not consistent in their efforts...good one night horrible the next. How do you decide who to bech when they ALL stink? LB knows what he wants but he ain't getting it from any but the real pros.

Most of the guys have changed their game? JC is trying along with Taylor, but I see nothing lasting from Marbury(when he did, he was very good), Jalen still is what he is, James sucks. Bottom line: this team is just not good.

Youo really think LB doesns't call Pick and pos for Frye? Really? The damn players have to execute. All Brown can do is practice and teach and hope they get it. I've seen Frye give up tons of open looks and according to Clyde, it has more to do with confidence than confusion. I trust him over you.

BTW, NEVER use the words STABILITY and MARBURY in the same paragraph...to the rack with you....


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: Grinch...*



Da Grinch said:


> if marbury doesn't play defense to larry's standard then larry should bench him. and that goes to anyone on the team , LB has more than enough guys on the team doing what he wants to play the ones who are doing what he asks ....thats not too hard , the problem is larry doesn't know what he wants.


problem is, larry's being sly with his moves, his playing of Steph when they lose makes it look bad on Stephon's part and not just Brown.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Coaches coach and players play*



alphadog said:


> That is the way it works. I agree with Marbury not being a lead guy but if you think for a moment he would be OK with that, you haven't been watching and reading. Some guys are trying and some aren't. Jalen has always been a loser and a distraction. Malik is a winner but a ROLE PLAYER. Other guys are incomplete players. ITs job is to assemble a team...LBs is to coach them. If the pieces don't fit, you can't succeed. Basketball is a great game...the greatest, but it depends on the harmony of the parts to be successful. No team Steph has been a part of has been Harmonious. NOcoach can win with this mess and I don't care about winning 50 games....I want to compete for a title and teams thast don't play TOUGH defense are relegated to the list of also-rans. Phenix wins nothing until they learn this. The Playoffs are a different season....one in which teams find it harder to score. Last years finals? The 2 toughest defensive teams oin the league. Go down the list of past Champs....how many did not play great defense?
> 
> Larry DOES bench players but guys making 18 mil are hard to bench. Plus, the fact is that these guys are not consistent in their efforts...good one night horrible the next. How do you decide who to bech when they ALL stink? LB knows what he wants but he ain't getting it from any but the real pros.
> 
> ...


the thing is if LB benched him for not playing good defense , that would be fine ...no matter stephon's paycheck he is the coach and shouldn't be looking at marbury's bank statement when making his coaching decisions ....the very fact that he does(if he does that) that is bad coaching.

but he hasn't he has just spouted in the papers, thats not coaching , thats something else. coaching happens bewteen a player and a coach either on the court, locker room, team bus or plane or in the video room ...it does not happen in front of the media when no players are around at all. if thats coaching its bad coaching

Larry isn't teaching defense if he were there might be some being played , everyone assiociated with the team has found fault with LB's method's from marbury to AD who is a friend of brown but knew he was going about it wrong.

do you think a pick and pop is that hard to execute?

do you think marbury forgot to run one from last season? when he ran 30 of them a game with kurt thomas...i know i saw them earlier in the season , i haven't seen them much in the last few months except when malik is bricking 18 fters i have a hard time believing frye forgot how to run on right but if thats the story you want to run with , i say go for it.

if in fact it is frye forgetting to pull the trigger ...ever ask why ? shouldn't that be the sort of thing a coach is on top of to fix? bad coaching is the term you are searching for.

I once ran a poll on the raptor board about jalen to see if the perception on the bulls board that he is a cancer was held on the raptor board ...it came back something like 97% that he wasn't ...you might want to revise your theory on him. he has been to the finals only one less time than brown in 1/3 the years so if he is a loser ...

you want complete players ?

how do you get them, half the players zeke inherited aren't in the nba right now ...how much value do you think they had? his best player retired due to medical injury, the next best guy was KVH, not exactly dwight howard in trade value.

what do you get for charlie ward or howard eisley?

clarence weatherspoon? mike sweetney ? milos vulanic and slavko vranes? michael doleac? frank williams where is he now? Kurt thomas and mcdyess?

shandon anderson and cezary trybansky ...othella harrington.

not one player zeke inherited currently starts for his team they are all either hurt , retired or bench players...but he is supposed to get stars for them who are perfect players.i think you may be living a life of fantasy basketball. i am not a Thomas apologist , he has made mistakes but to seriously believe this team is so bad because the players are so bad and coaching has little to nothing to do with it is naive.

either way its still brown's job to win games , and whatever you believe his motives are he clearly isn't trying to win games to the best of his ability ....and that amounts to bad coaching.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Grinch...*



Gotham2krazy said:


> problem is, larry's being sly with his moves, his playing of Steph when they lose makes it look bad on Stephon's part and not just Brown.


I 100% agree with you.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

*Re: Wrong....*



alphadog said:


> #1) Marbury never was as good as he thought he was and would never be accused by anyone with a brain of being a winner, a team first kind of guy, or a cornerstone of a franchise.
> 
> #2) JC has never played a better all around game than he is currently playing. I have to assume that the wild cross-overs and ill-advised shots sandwiched around no defensive effort stints up the court are missed by you?
> 
> ...



Good coaches, yes. But GREAT coaches know how to convert their structure to match the talent they have on a team.


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: Wrong....*

Overall, BROWN WANTS MARBURY OUT! He doesn't like him, never will, never did. He's just putting up an act right now, this guy is so two-faced. Untrustable, but he's smart and he's a good coach. I bet you guys anything we'll be at the top of the Atlantic next year with a .500+ record. To get rid of Marbury, LB would even sacrifice his great Hall of Fame record just a bit in the losses column.


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