# Just thinking.....VC to BOS



## Flava D (Sep 27, 2003)

Considering that it is overly unlikely that the Raptors will receive fair market value for Vince Carter (though what would that really be at this point in his career?) and that the Celts and Raps have been fairly willing trade partners over the years (though I do remember a deal for Alvin Williams falling apart, thank God), I could imagine a deal at least being discussed at this point. The Raptors main goal at this point has to be to get butts in seats, because their team is far from being competitive even with Carter. They need a flashy player with star potential and we have one, ricky buckets. Given VC's max contract we'd have to add some cap fodder, and I doubt they'd take Raef. Perhaps Atkins, Yogi and Jumaine Jones would do the trick. We'd still have our MLE to get eric williams or rodney rodgers and we'd be an even more athletic up tempo team. Now I'm not a huge Carter fan, but I think with the right attitude he's the kind of guy Ainge and Doc would love to have on the court night in and night out to take pressure off Pierce. Of course this is pure speculation, but it makes sense for both teams in some ways. What do you all think?


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## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

I would taka chance on him...If we had him and Pierce and the youngins i would be happy, but wishful thinking isnt prolly gonna make this happen...I dunno if we have enough to give them, crazier things have happened and i wud trade ricky for him ina package...


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## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

I have absolutely no interest in VC... not at this point in his career for the money he makes.

Vince is the greatest dunker I have ever seen. He used to be money from 15 feet. Still, he has seen many more loses than wins...I do not think that he is a very good team player.

I'll take Ricky.


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## lempbizkit (Dec 25, 2003)

I would prefer to see VC go elsewhere. Sure he can dunk, but he is soft, milks injuries and seems more like a me-first type player, might as well stick w/ Ricky since they are basically the same player just cheaper and less loved by fans.


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## KJay (Sep 22, 2002)

nope I rather stay put than have someone who is injured and soft.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

So Toronto gives up their franchise for Ricky, Chucky, Yogi, and Jermaine?

Seriously?


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

:laugh: RICKY DAVIS is what made the CELTICS bad in the first place.... :laugh:


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> So Toronto gives up their franchise for Ricky, Chucky, Yogi, and Jermaine?
> 
> Seriously?


Thank you Arenas for putting some realism into this thread. 



> Originally posted by <b>kirk_2003</b>!
> 
> :laugh: RICKY DAVIS is what made the CELTICS bad in the first place.... :laugh:


No.


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## Flava D (Sep 27, 2003)

> So Toronto gives up their franchise for Ricky, Chucky, Yogi, and Jermaine?


I'm not sure what they can realistically get for the guy, he's forcing their hand. This proposed package may be better than what they really get, especially if its from NY...


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## Outkast (Jul 20, 2004)

the Raptors dont have interest in any Celtic only in PP


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Flava D</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what they can realistically get for the guy, he's forcing their hand. This proposed package may be better than what they really get, especially if its from NY...


They could just not trade the guy. What's Vince's alternative? Not play? He's under contract for another four years. If Toronto just decides to not trade him, he's stuck.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Not only do you undervalue Vince but you also want him to play second fiddle to Paul Pierce, wow what has the world come to


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## P2TheTruth34 (May 25, 2003)

Im so sick of everyone who cuts up Ricky Davis. Yes he had problems in Cleveland, but the Celtics didn't have one serious problem with him at all and he was obviously the 2nd best player on the team last year. Any person who says Ricky is the reason we lost last year is an idiot. We need someone like him who can command defensive attention. Ricky Davis helped us win, and we all saw (anyone who watched) that he played extremely hard for us making some ridiculous plays and overall not too many bonehead ones like we'd seen in Cleveland where he showed off his ego. But since his arrival and Boston there has been no problem whatsoever with Pierce/him nor any coaches/management and him and he seems to fit in pretty well with the team besides maybe Blount who was a ********* last year in terms of team effort.

Please use a better term than that in reference to people next time. Thanks. ---agoo


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>P2TheTruth34</b>!
> Ricky Davis helped us win,


Win what?



> no problem whatsoever with Pierce/him nor any coaches/management


Then why did he yell out "Bring on Doc Rivers" after the Celtics were killed in the playoffs.


I can't believe that some of you don't want Carter. Like it or not he's still a big impact player, just thinking of having him here in Boston with Pierce makes me sweat like a fat kid in a candy store.


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## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

Vince Carter might be a good player but until he cares about more them himself he will never be on a Championship winning team.
Do you know how many concerts go on in Massachusetts?
Vince would be too busy dancing on the stage while his teammates are doing the jobs they get paid for.

No way Vince Carter should ever where Celtic green. We have enough players like him as it is.

Could you imagine him and Pierce trying to share the ball. It would never happen.


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## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

at this point in Carter's career, it would be an incredible gamble to acquire him.

He is a talented ballplayer, yes, but he is a terrible injury liability. I wouldnt take a risk on that especially with that money he is making.


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## Outkast (Jul 20, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>TheTruth34</b>!
> at this point in Carter's career, it would be an incredible gamble to acquire him.
> 
> He is a talented ballplayer, yes, but he is a terrible injury liability. I wouldnt take a risk on that especially with that money he is making.


he need a change of team he and PP with a good team = playoff


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## duckman1734 (Jun 29, 2003)

The only way the Celtics could get him is by trading PP.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>duckman1734</b>!
> 
> The only way the Celtics could get him is by trading PP.


Not really.


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## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TheTruth34</b>!
> at this point in Carter's career, it would be an incredible gamble to acquire him.
> 
> He is a talented ballplayer, yes, but he is a terrible injury liability. I wouldnt take a risk on that especially with that money he is making.


I agree with this post.

Vince has yet to return to his former glory; yet he is making glory money. With all due respect to Vince, he is not high on my list for players who would look good in Celtic green next season.


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## BackwoodsBum (Jul 2, 2003)

While the thought of 1-2 punch of Paul Pierce and a healthy Vince Carter sounds great, there are too many things that would keep me from being in favor of this deal. Nothing against VC, but what does he bring to the team that we don't already have? Ricky and Jiri have just started to scratch the surface of what they can do for this team, and I think that Tony Allen will be pressing them for playing time this year too. I haven't seen Delonte West enough to know what he is capable of, but I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't get some spot minutes at the 2 this year. We are loaded at the 2/3 position and while I think that at least one of our existing wing players will be traded, I don't think swapping any of them for another wing player is a good move. 

I don't know how the salaries work out, but the only way I see Toronto trading Carter to the C's would be for either Pierce or for a multiple player deal involving Ricky Davis. I'm not the biggest Paul Pierce fan in the world, but there's no way I'd trade him straight up for Carter. They are similar in talent, but you'll get much more out of Pierce because of the injury factor with Carter.

As for a multiple player deal involving Davis for Carter, Toronto would have to take on one or more of our cap killing contracts (Raef?) before I would go for this one, and I don't think they are that desperate to get rid of Carter. I'm still not ready to give up completely on Raef, and I may be crazy but I think Davis is a great fit for this team so I'd pass on this one too. Besides, I think the only way Toronto would do this is if we throw in one of our young players (Jiri, Marcus, or Kendrick) and take back some of their garbage players. Thanks anyway!


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

We are talking about Vince Carter here, not Vin Baker. The Raptors don't need to take on any of our huge contracts, they may as well ask one of the other 28 teams for cheaper, younger, and more productive players.

If there's a chance to land VC without giving up our youngsters and Pierce, every Celtic fan should do it in a second.


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## banner17 (Jun 28, 2003)

If the Raptors would accept Raef and Ricky, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Vince is only 27 - who knows if he'll continue to have injury problems. He did play in 73 games last year averaging 38 minutes per game. Raef is equally as great of an injury liability as Carter if not more so and I certainly view the production one gets from Vince and his max contract as a much better value than what we get for what we're paying Raef.

Think about it - having two men on the floor that legitemately command a double team at all times opens up a lot of open looks for others. Also, having two stars on the same team would greatly improve our chances of attracting quality players for the MLE, which currently is a contract that no one is particularly interested in with the Celtics.

Having said this - this trade would never happen - unless multiple first rounders were also included from us.


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## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

Vince could never co exist with Pierce. Pierce expects the ball 100% of the time in the forth quarter and Vince likes the ball himself.

What are you going to do in the forth quarter when both players decide they want to show up? take the other 3 guys off the court and let them fight for the ball by arm wrestling?


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

I find it pretty funny you guys honestly think that Vince Carter would come to Boston WITHOUT Pierce being sent back to Toronto.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> I find it pretty funny you guys honestly think that Vince Carter would come to Boston WITHOUT Pierce being sent back to Toronto.


C'mon Arenas, it could happen. Jefferson, Perkins, Welsch, Davis, Banks, Picks...we have a lot to offer, but Ainge would be killed if it happened.


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## KJay (Sep 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>banner17</b>!
> If the Raptors would accept Raef and Ricky, I'd do it in a heartbeat. .


 me2 but as you said later, won't happen. I think the clippers are the only team stupid enough to do it


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>KJay</b>!
> 
> me2 but as you said later, won't happen. I think the clippers are the only team stupid enough to do it


Don't kid yourself. No team is that stupid. If you are being paid to do that job, you are qualified. People hire these guys for a reason.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Celts11</b>!
> 
> 
> Don't kid yourself. No team is that stupid. If you are being paid to do that job, you are qualified. People hire these guys for a reason.


Yeah, but sometime you have to wonder about the Clippers.


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## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lastlaugh</b>!
> What are you going to do in the forth quarter when both players decide they want to show up?


I cheer. A big problem with the Celtics last year is that nobody other than Pierce decided to show up in the fourth quarter. You can blame it on Pierce always wanting the ball, but when the other players had it, they did nothing. That game when Ricky hit the game winning shot was his first in his entire career. That says something.

Carter brings nothing new to the table, but he is someone you have to guard. Jiri and Ricky haven't proven they're enough of a threat to take guys of Pierce. Defenses take their chances on those guys. They don't take a chance on Carter. 

Anyway, we don't have to worry because I don't think Carter is anywhere on the horizon for Ainge.


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

I would trade Raef, Davis or Jiri and Banks and future #1 pick for Vince. I don't know if Toronto would be interested but if they have to dump Vince why not.

Okay, it is ludicrous. Next thing you know someone will get Shaq for Grant, Odom and Butler! Or maybe T-Mac and Howard for Mobley,Cato and Francis!

Seriously, though. A combination of Carter and Pierce would be awesome. I don't love Carter as a #1 guy but as 1B to Paul it is too sick to contemplate.

Both players can shoot the lights out from 3 point range and can take it to the hole with the best of them.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

I wouldn't call Pierce a lights our 3 point shooter, but the rest I agree with.


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## ZWW (Jan 17, 2004)

Anyone else besides me think Vince Carter is overrated?


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## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ZWW</b>!
> Anyone else besides me think Vince Carter is overrated?


He's overrated but still better than anyone on the Celtics not named Paul.


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## lempbizkit (Dec 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ZWW</b>!
> Anyone else besides me think Vince Carter is overrated?


I think he is possibly the most overrated player in the NBA.


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## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

Exactly when did Paul show up last year in the forth quarter more then anyone else?
He didn't on a consistant basis or we would have won more games in the forth.



> Originally posted by <b>mrsister</b>!
> 
> 
> I cheer. A big problem with the Celtics last year is that nobody other than Pierce decided to show up in the fourth quarter.



I don't think Vince Carter is a bad player but I do know that there is only one ball on the court at a time and I don't see Carter or Pierce giving that one ball up when they can get credit for a win.
No one is going to take a bacl seat to Paul so he can have all the glory and we know Paul won't give the ball up.
Do you really see Vince Carter playing in Boston for the Celtics at any time where he doesn't get to be the main guy?



> Carter brings nothing new to the table, but he is someone you have to guard. Jiri and Ricky haven't proven they're enough of a threat to take guys of Pierce. Defenses take their chances on those guys. They don't take a chance on Carter.


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## banner17 (Jun 28, 2003)

the one thing I have noticed is that ever since antoine left, leaving Pierce as the only true threat on offensive, Pierce stopped moving without the ball. Perhaps, with two options both Vince and Paul would move a lot more without the ball and the Princeton offense that I've heard the team wishes to employ could become a reality.


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## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lastlaugh</b>!
> I don't think Vince Carter is a bad player but I do know that there is only one ball on the court at a time and I don't see Carter or Pierce giving that one ball up when they can get credit for a win.


Pierce worked well with Walker. Walker took plenty of shots and had almost as many points. They were the second highest scoring duo in the league behind Shaq and Kobe. Don't tell me Pierce won't share the ball. He may have been Mr. fourth quarter, but Walker had some clutch shots of his own. I watched just about every game last year, and there were plenty of people who touched the ball in the fourth quarter. They either treated it like a hot potato and gave it up, were hesitant and allowed the defender to establish position, or just plain missed. Pierce wasn't great either, but I think he's much better when he has a second option. It's not speculation. It actually happened when Walker was around. I'm not saying Carter is the answer. Walker did take a back seat in a way I don't see Carter doing, but I don't think Pierce could never play with another star. He already has.


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## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

The only times players had the ball when the game was close in the fourth quarter last year is if they didn't get the play going through Paul's hands in the first place. He rarely passes that ball when it is in his hands.

Paul is being paid the max, he is the guy making the most money. I am sure most people want him taking the shot but how many times did he try and drive through 3 or 4 defenders last year instead of passing the ball to an open teammate?

I will tell you Pierce won't share the ball. It is a fact and there is no way a player like Vince Carter would come to Paul and defer to Pierce 99% of the time.
Walker hit some big shots while with Boston but try watching those games again. None of those shots came from passes from Paul.

Kobe and Shaq both took game winning shots while playing for LA but they still argued about who should get the ball. If you asked Shaq he would tell you Kobe isn't a team player. He has danced around that fact a million times and both of them made plenty of game deciding shots. 



> Originally posted by <b>mrsister</b>!
> 
> 
> Pierce worked well with Walker. Walker took plenty of shots and had almost as many points. They were the second highest scoring duo in the league behind Shaq and Kobe. Don't tell me Pierce won't share the ball. He may have been Mr. fourth quarter, but Walker had some clutch shots of his own. I watched just about every game last year, and there were plenty of people who touched the ball in the fourth quarter. They either treated it like a hot potato and gave it up, were hesitant and allowed the defender to establish position, or just plain missed. Pierce wasn't great either, but I think he's much better when he has a second option. It's not speculation. It actually happened when Walker was around. I'm not saying Carter is the answer. Walker did take a back seat in a way I don't see Carter doing, but I don't think Pierce could never play with another star. He already has.


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lempbizkit</b>!
> 
> 
> I think he is possibly the most overrated player in the NBA.


hmmm... I have a feeling you guys don't watch too many raptors games... do you guys know that vince avg 26/5/5 after the all star break?

and he is a great team player. In fact, I wish he was a lot more selfish. He passes the ball way too often.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Vince has always and will always be a better player than PP, u celtics fan can deny that as much as you want to. Vince can do things PP can only dream of doing and if u think u r going to get Vince without losing PP keep dreaming. If this insane trade does go ahead, do u think this 2 players will ever coexist. Think of chemistry issues, how would PP feel when Vince continues to get the spotlight, continues to lead ASG voting, then ppl begin to wonder who the franchise player actually is.


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## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

No one is saying Vince is a bad player (at least I am not) but there is no way Pierce and Carter would be able to share the spotlight.
This deal is not happening anyway so there really is no need to start a Paul vs Vince fight.
Vince hasn't played enough the last few years to say he would ever be or is better then Paul Pierce.

Being voted on to an All Star team by the fans (Vince has the entire Country of Canada voting for him vs Paul getting votes split through the entire United States) doesn't make him the player Raptor fans have imagined in their heads. (If it did Toronto's past would have a lot more playoff wins in it) 

I don't see the point in this fight as it is. What are we going to fight about, which player is better on two sucky teams? 
It doesn't matter who is better. Neither player is capable of making their team better.


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## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

All-Star voting should never be a gauge of how good a player is. Carter lead all voting one year when he hardly played at all. Mourning and Hill have been voted on, even though they barely stepped on the court. Yao Ming was voted as the starting center in the West over Shaq. It's a popularity contest. That is all. You can argue that a player is better than another, but using All-Star voting is not a valid argument.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SamIam</b>!
> Both players can shoot the lights out from 3 point range and can take it to the hole with the best of them.


Yep, Pierce is a lights out 3-point shooter yet he couldn't even shoot 30% from behind the arc last season. Amazing.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Oh by the way if you think Vince gets most of his votes cause he is in Canada think again, Canadians would rather watch a hockey game than basketball. Vince's votes are definitely not solely from Canada.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> Oh by the way if you think Vince gets most of his votes cause he is in Canada think again, Canadians would rather watch a hockey game than basketball. Vince's votes are definitely not solely from Canada.


I'd assume they're mostly from adolescent boys who only watch SportsCenter and think "Vince dunk on you" equals "Vince is the best player in the world."

He's a good player, but he shouldn't be winning all-star voting and he's not coming to Boston anyway.


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