# KC Johnson and David Schuster talking Bulls trade on THE SCORE



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Decent roundtable interview between MURPH, KC and David about the trade deadline.

KC Johnson
“Paxson has been VERY RELUCTANT to include ANY of “the core” which is Hinrich, Deng, Gordon and Nocioni."

David Schuster
“Unless Jerry West wakes up tomorrow morning wanting to give away Pau Gasol for next to nothing, this deal is not going to happen.”


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

They also went on to talk about how Nocioni and the pick plus 2 exp deals would likely be closer to what West is looking for than what Paxson is currently offering, but that Paxson is very leery to part with Nocioni.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

he wont trade Nocioni? I bet he will tomorrow. He is holding out until the last minute.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Blech.



I'm going back to my Genesis youtube videos.

If this deal gets hung up because Pax is scared of a Gasol/Nocioni swap, my confidence will be shaken, to say the least.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Double blech.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> They also went on to talk about how Nocioni and the pick plus 2 exp deals would likely be closer to what West is looking for than what Paxson is currently offering, but that Paxson is very leery to part with Nocioni.


If the deal falls through because Pax doesn't want to part with Deng, I can understand that. If it's Nocioni, I will go absolutely freaking bonkers. That would be beyond ridiculous. Noc is my favorite payer to root for on the team, but get real already. He's your backup SF and you have other SFs who can play.


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## badfish (Feb 4, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> They also went on to talk about how Nocioni and the pick plus 2 exp deals would likely be closer to what West is looking for than what Paxson is currently offering, but that Paxson is very leery to part with Nocioni.



Wow. I'd take this deal in a heartbeat. That's too good to be true and a far cry from the Deng AND Gordon rumors.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Can I add vomitaculous?


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Does anyone know what kind of diapers that crazy astronaut lady wore on her cross-country road trip?

I might need some of those between now and the deadline.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> Does anyone know what kind of diapers that crazy astronaut lady wore on her cross-country road trip?


i'm not sure. depends.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Did anyone else see the clip a few games ago of Skiles talking about Noc? Honest to god I think Scott might have ejaculated while talking about what a great player he is.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

If Paxson doesn't do Noce, NYK, and 2 Expirings for Gasol, I want him fired, if it is confirmed that West would take that deal.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

And both of them (KC and Dave) claimed the Gasol deal is "dead."

There may be a smaller deal, such as the Rahim rumor, but both were betting on nothing happening. The drawbacks to the Rahim or Etan deals are the multi-year deals, even though the yearly salaries are pretty small by NBA standards.

YUK


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> Did anyone else see the clip a few games ago of Skiles talking about Noc? Honest to god I think Scott might have ejaculated while talkig about what a great player he is.


Okay, then I'll ask Skiles the diaper question instead.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> Did anyone else see the clip a few games ago of Skiles talking about Noc? Honest to god I think Scott might have ejaculated while talking about what a great player he is.


I hear that's good for the skin. Any chance it could help Noch grow four inches?


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> If Paxson doesn't do Noce, NYK, and 2 Expirings for Gasol, I want him fired, if it is confirmed that West would take that deal.


Aye, that's the rub. You'll never be able to confirm that.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> Aye, that's the rub. You'll never be able to confirm that.


I'd like to believe that Paxson is not dumb enough to not take that deal.

I think I'd offer Noc, expiring salary, the pick swap, and our 2009 first round pick. Win now.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> Does anyone know what kind of diapers that crazy astronaut lady wore on her cross-country road trip?


As a follow-up to my previous --

Whoever made the diapers really should use it as a marketing campaign. "Adult Diapers -- Like the Astronaut Wore!!!"

It'd be like those ads when I was a kid for Tang and those horrible, chewy chocolate/mediciney "Breakfast Sticks" that supposedly were astronaut food.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> I'd like to believe that Paxson is not dumb enough to not take that deal.
> 
> I think I'd offer Noc, expiring salary, the pick swap, and our 2009 first round pick. Win now.



HELL YEAH!

I really am interested if anything becomes public after tomorrow about what was actually on the table. Only then we will to judge what GM made the right decision if a deal is not made.

*Anyone have a link for the podcast? I'd love to get a listen?

Was the Noce, NYK, Expirings deal actually offered and contemplated by West? Or is it speculation?*


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> Did anyone else see the clip a few games ago of Skiles talking about Noc? Honest to god I think Scott might have ejaculated while talking about what a great player he is.





Darius Miles Davis said:


> I hear that's good for the skin. Any chance it could help Noch grow four inches?


He could grow four inches -- or MORE! It depends on how excited Noch GETS from Skiles' ejac



No. That is just too "cowboy icon" even for me.


Bad Boerwinkle. Bad.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> I'd like to believe that Paxson is not dumb enough to not take that deal.
> 
> I think I'd offer Noc, expiring salary, the pick swap, and our 2009 first round pick. Win now.


I don't know that that would actually get it done, but hell yeah, I'd offer that.

Perhaps Pax was one of those two posters who voted that they would not include Noce in a Gasol trade?

In any case, Noce can't possibly be the hold-up in a deal for Gasol. Not by himself. That's not rational.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

theanimal23 said:


> Only then we will to judge what GM made the right decision if a deal is not made.



Not on this board. Judge first, collect facts later.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Soulful Sides said:


> Not on this board. Judge first, collect facts later.


LOL. I'll prolly fall in your category man. I think we Bulls fan in particular are sooooo wanting to win, that we just go insane. 

Pax, bring Gasol home!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! (Jun 10, 2003)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Blech.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, that's an immpressive list, I have to say. You should check out the "Musical Box", a tribute band that covers Gabriel era Genesis that tours throughout the US, canada, and Europe. The band members saw them in Lodon and were left stunned--even better than the real thing, no doubt. I saw their "Lamb" tour performances in Milwaukee. It was amazing, right down to Armando Gallo's original slides from the actual tour. 

Ok, as you were back to the hoops talk.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> They also went on to talk about how Nocioni and the pick plus 2 exp deals would likely be closer to what West is looking for than what Paxson is currently offering, but that Paxson is very leery to part with Nocioni.



did they give any hint as to what pax is currently offering? cause, dayum, where's my pitchfork?

_unreal._ 

OR is it a matter of Jerry West has been jerking Pax's chain (as it were) this whole time and Gasol was never really on the market? or that West is simply asking for too much (2 of the core)?

is it thursday yet?


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! said:


> Wow, that's an immpressive list, I have to say. You should check out the "Musical Box", a tribute band that covers Gabriel era Genesis that tours throughout the US, canada, and Europe. The band members saw them in Lodon and were left stunned--even better than the real thing, no doubt. I saw their "Lamb" tour performances in Milwaukee. It was amazing, right down to Armando Gallo's original slides from the actual tour.
> 
> Ok, as you were back to the hoops talk.




I've heard of them.


Your avatar has me thinking my next avatar/youtube sig line will be something with Ornette Coleman and free jazz.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

KC was pretty clear that Paxson was reluctant to include ANY of the "core 4."

Also, Murph specifically asked about Nocioni. Would a trade involving Nocioni as the principal be a viable option? The consensus was that West would be happier with that type of deal than what was currently on the table, but that Paxson and Skiles both love Andres Nocioni and are not looking to deal him.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> If Paxson doesn't do Noce, NYK, and 2 Expirings for Gasol, I want him fired, if it is confirmed that West would take that deal.


co-sign


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> If this deal gets hung up because Pax is scared of a Gasol/Nocioni swap, my confidence will be shaken, to say the least.


That is really all I have to say on the matter. But it is worth saying twice.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> KC was pretty clear that Paxson was reluctatnt to include ANY of the "core 4."
> 
> Also, Murph specifically asked about Nocioni. Would a trade involving Nocioni as the principal be a viable option? The consensus was that West would be happier with that type of deal than what was currently on the table, but that Paxson and Skiles both love Andres Nocioni.


You guys don't know how much this bothers me. I hope I'm not in the same boat. Noce is one of my favorite players, maybe would definitely be my favorite he is magically becomes Pau Gasol.

Seriously, Pax and Skiles need to go to a counselor if this is the reason why we are not getting Gasol. Is it lux tax issues? What is it? 

Dammit, PaxSkiles, how does Wallace/Gasol/Deng/Gordon/Hinrich sound for the next few years?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> did they give any hint as to what pax is currently offering? cause, dayum, where's my pitchfork?
> 
> _unreal._


No, they didn't.

Both said the deal was "dead" though. 

David S said that no deal would happen unless West woke up tomorrow wanting to give away Gasol for next to nothing.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

K4E, is there a podcast available?

Is the Noce/NYK deal ever presented, or do they think that may be enough to get it done? I'm assuming at this point we have offered nothing from the core 4, let alone the Big 3. I can understand Pax not offering the Big 3, but the "4th" = Noce, should be fair. Fair as in, to our advantage.

I assume there will be no dicussion going on, unless Pax decides to up his offer?


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> KC was pretty clear that Paxson was reluctatnt to include ANY of the "core 4."
> 
> Also, Murph specifically asked about Nocioni. Would a trade involving Nocioni as the principal be a viable option? The consensus was that West would be happier with that type of deal than what was currently on the table, but that Paxson and Skiles both love Andres Nocioni.


If this is true something tells me that this is more about the expiring contracts than Nocioni or Deng. Cheapskate Jerry wants his money, and he's not giving any of it up.

I read a rumor that the plan is to raise ticket prices another 20% and to charge for rights to buy season tickets. In effect Jerry and friends are fleecing the fans for a one-time windfall of $100 million or so and a recurring increase in prices that lands him another $20 million or more per year. But the Bulls can't afford to take on a few extra million per year in salaries?

It will take empty stadiums and cancelled media contracts to bring these guys back to reality. My guess is they have Cub owner envy.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> KC was pretty clear that Paxson was reluctatnt to include ANY of the "core 4."
> 
> Also, Murph specifically asked about Nocioni. Would a trade involving Nocioni as the principal be a viable option? The consensus was that West would be happier with that type of deal than what was currently on the table, but that Paxson and Skiles both love Andres Nocioni.



thanks, K. 

i love nocioni as much as the next person, but come on this is PAU FREAKIN' GASOL we're talking about and we'd still have Deng!! 












ridiculous.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> I hear that's good for the skin. Any chance it could help Noch grow four inches?


In which direction?


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I'm going for a while. I HOPE to come back and see some better news. Hopefully Noce was healthy enough to play last night, but didn't for precautionary TRADE reasons.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

So Pax was unwilling to give up even ONE of the "core" of Deng, Nocioni, Gordon, and Hinrich to get Pau Gasol.

PAU GASOL.

I'm not as disappointed by the fact that the deal is dead as I am by the fact that discussions really never got off the ground. 

How in the world can the Bulls have not made a legitimate play for Gasol?

Unbelievable. Can common sense prevail and a deal of Deng OR Hinrich OR Gordon plus PJ plus 2007 pick swap get done by tomorrow afternoon? Please?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> Is the Noce/NYK deal ever presented, or do they think that may be enough to get it done? I'm assuming at this point we have offered nothing from the core 4, let alone the Big 3. I can understand Pax not offering the Big 3, but the "4th" = Noce, should be fair. Fair as in, to our advantage.
> 
> I assume there will be no dicussion going on, unless Pax decides to up his offer?


I'm not sure what to assume.

Based on that conversation, it seems like there isn't any talking going on right now and that West will have to give in (accept a package from outside of the core 4) in order for the deal to happen.

They didn't talk about any deals that Paxson offered... only that Paxson was reluctant to offer any of the "core 4" and that Nocioni, Knicks pick, plus 2 expiring contracts was not a deal that Paxson would be excited about. They didn't say that West would accept that deal though.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Well, here's what I think.

Pretty much every writer I see with close ties to the Bulls seems to be saying similar things. That Pax isn't giving much up. Pax has never been one to masquerede his intentions, and he's spoken several times about a Rasheed Wallace type trade (ie, something for nothing).

Everything I've seen from the Griz, including a pretty unusual and pretty definitive sounding statement from their owner, makes clear that they want a young quality player, a pick, and/or cap relief. 

I hope I'm wrong, but it looks to me like what's being reported is exactly the truth on the ground. If I had to make a bet at this point, that'd be my bet anyway.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

BTW, OT, but here's a great aricle for all those Knicks pick fans out there.



> Furthermore, check out New York’s upcoming schedule: After tonight, the ‘Bockers won’t play a team with a winning record until March 10. That’s eight straight games against the league’s doormats if you’re scoring at home, and it will be a huge disappointment if the locals don’t claim at least five of them.


http://www.knickerblogger.net/?p=474


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

come tomorrow, paxson will offer deng or gordon +no.1pick, the deal is west's to make or reject. no more no less. 1 core+pick+pj brown.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> BTW, OT, but here's a great aricle for all those Knicks pick fans out there.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.knickerblogger.net/?p=474


The Magic were doubling Eddy Curry in the post last night even when he didn't have the ball, which is not something you see every day. Of course, when a guy scores on your Hall of Famer with ridiculous ease, it calls for drastic measures. 

It worked -- apart from the beginning of the third quarter, I don't think he had a single shot attempt in the second half. But with a little under a minute left and the Knicks lead cut to three, he got the ball on a screen roll outside the three-point line, beat Howard off the dribble, and took it all the way to the rack for the clinching basket.

But the Knicks definitely do suck and things just wouldn't have worked out for Eddy here. And we'll get that replacement big someday. Not this year, but someday.


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## LuCane (Dec 9, 2002)

> KC was pretty clear that Paxson was reluctant to include ANY of the "core 4."
> 
> Also, Murph specifically asked about Nocioni. Would a trade involving Nocioni as the principal be a viable option? The consensus was that West would be happier with that type of deal than what was currently on the table, but that Paxson and Skiles both love Andres Nocioni and are not looking to deal him.


A board with such knowledgeable, often intelligent, and mostly experienced (in terms of the rumormill) posters, and the vast majority conclude that the "roundtable" discussion is simply "genuine and true" - without nary a consideration for K.C. Johnson, for example, being a mouthpiece for Bulls management making a last ditch attempt to drive the price down on a trade, or even being fed that information in order to produce a similar result (through reports).

Glad I took a step back from the Wild, Wild West nature of the board some time ago.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

My inclination is that Pax isn't this stupid. Who knows though? I'm sure tired of all this speculation. One day Sam Smith reports it's Deng and Gordon and the next his own co-worker at the same paper says Noc and the NY pick might get a deal done. I'm tired of trying to make sense of it all.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

LuCane said:


> A board with such knowledgeable, often intelligent, and mostly experienced (in terms of the rumormill) posters, and the vast majority conclude that the "roundtable" discussion is simply "genuine and true" - without nary a consideration for K.C. Johnson, for example, being a mouthpiece for Bulls management making a last ditch attempt to drive the price down on a trade, or even being fed that information in order to produce a similar result (through reports).
> 
> Glad I took a step back from the Wild, Wild West nature of the board some time ago.


Haha. Great post.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Hey, all I know is I posted in the last day or so a true (but basketball geek embarrasingly so) story of how I had a dream that I was online after news broke of a Nocioni/Brown + fillers for Gasol + fillers trade that had gone down and arguing with posters who said we overpaid by giving up Noc. I actually woke up mad at the posters who were thumbing their nose at a deal that landed us Gasol without giving up Kirk, Luol or Ben G. (I can't recall if the pick was involved in my dream).

Maybe this really was my one and only psychic moment!

And if it was, why couldn't it have been a vision of winning Lotto numbers?


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I cant believe that Pax would not pull a trigger on a Noc + Vets deal to get Pau, If this would have trully been enough to get Pau Gasol it would have been done. Pax is not that stupid, he would not consider Andres Nocioni to be more valuable then Pau Gasol.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

LuCane said:


> A board with such knowledgeable, often intelligent, and mostly experienced (in terms of the rumormill) posters, and the vast majority conclude that the "roundtable" discussion is simply "genuine and true" - without nary a consideration for K.C. Johnson, for example, being a mouthpiece for Bulls management making a last ditch attempt to drive the price down on a trade, or even being fed that information in order to produce a similar result (through reports).


Man, that Pax covers all the angles, doesn't he? He knows that Jerry West is no doubt anxiously streaming THE SCORE and hitting refresh on all the message boards. 

+1 Pax



> Glad I took a step back from the Wild, Wild West nature of the board some time ago.


May your next hiatus be as fulfilling as the last.


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## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> May your next hiatus be as fulfilling as the last.


:sigh:


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## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

LuCane said:


> A board with such knowledgeable, often intelligent, and mostly experienced (in terms of the rumormill) posters, and the vast majority conclude that the "roundtable" discussion is simply "genuine and true" - without nary a consideration for K.C. Johnson, for example, being a mouthpiece for Bulls management making a last ditch attempt to drive the price down on a trade, or even being fed that information in order to produce a similar result (through reports).


Yeah, but knee-jerk reactions are great for post counts.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

It's not so much the Wild, Wild West nature as it is a self-serving and self-righteous nature that's driving many of these posts.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> So Pax was unwilling to give up even ONE of the "core" of Deng, Nocioni, Gordon, and Hinrich to get Pau Gasol.
> 
> PAU GASOL.
> 
> ...



Remember that this is...*reportedly*. *Allegedly*. *Supposedly*.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Soulful Sides said:


> Remember that this is...*reportedly*. *Allegedly*. *Supposedly*.


Right, of course. While on the one hand K.C. Johnson is actively facilitating trade talks between Paxson and West, on the other he really doesn't know anything.

Maybe it is just easier to stick to 

"IN PAX WE TRUST!"


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> "IN PAX WE TRUST!"


Compared to Krause? Yes. 80 times over.

His acquisitions:

Skiles > Floyd and Cartwright (combined)
Team > The Krause Years


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

My faith in John Paxson does not allow me to believe the "Nocioni is a deal breaker" scenario. If it turns out to be accurate, he'll have completely lost my trust in him to do the right thing.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

Marc Stein:



> The Bulls, according to NBA front-office sources, are the only bidder at the moment, but the Grizz have abandoned hope of convincing Chicago to part with Luol Deng. Ben Gordon, sources say, is the only member of Chicago's core four youngsters -- along with Deng, Kirk Hinrich and Andres Nocioni -- who has been made available.
> 
> Chicago simply isn't convinced that Gasol, who has never won a playoff game in this league, is an over-the-top acquisition, even in an Eastern Conference seemingly there to be won and in spite of its obvious need for a low-post scoring threat. The Bulls also believe that this won't be their only shot at Gasol, assuming the Spaniard is shopped again around the draft.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

JeremyB0001 said:


> My inclination is that Pax isn't this stupid. Who knows though? I'm sure tired of all this speculation. One day Sam Smith reports it's Deng and Gordon and the next his own co-worker at the same paper says Noc and the NY pick might get a deal done. I'm tired of trying to make sense of it all.


+1. At least the hoopla of the past 3 weeks will be over with tomorrow.


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## BeZerker2008 (Jun 29, 2006)

If it's true about not wanting to give up Noch than what the Hell! Didn't pax say he would offer non-starters, including whatever else? I just don't see why he wouldn't do this trade. I like noch but if it helped landed us Gasol without gutting the starting 5 then pull it Pax!

I can see this years team getting the early first round exit again, if we are in the picture at all. Teams are getting themselves ready for their push in the playoffs, we are currently 5th in the playoff standings & we are getting tough road games coming at us and I just don't see us doing well in those games & we may very well be out of the playoff picture when all is said and done.

Pax needs to quit with loving his players too much that he may not want to let them go at anytime. Pax also needs to understand that not too often good 7 foot players aren't normally shopped around too often. If that's the deal West wants give it to him pax.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

Marty Burns:



> Apparently Bulls GM John Paxson is holding firm in his stance that he doesn't want to trade either Luol Deng or Ben Gordon. One Eastern Conference GM said he wouldn't be surprised if the Bulls and Grizzlies pulled off the deal at the last minute, but he believed Memphis was content to keep the 7-foot Spaniard until the summer.
> 
> For what it's worth, the NBA also announced over All-Star Weekend that the Grizzlies would be playing an exhibition game in Spain next fall. Would David Stern & Co. have agreed to send Memphis over there without at least some indication from Jerry West that Gasol would still be around?


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Soulful Sides said:


> Compared to Krause? Yes. 80 times over.
> 
> His acquisitions:
> 
> ...


I don't have a horse in the "who was a better coach/who was a better GM" races. I really couldn't give a ****.

I'm just commenting on the commenters who furrow their brows at "speculation" and the ill-mannered "second-guessing" that, you know, is sort of the reason for boards like these exist.

Perhaps one day we'll have signed and sworn affidavits from all parties involved in the great Paxson-West discussions of 2007, and everyone will be satisfied. Until then, I'll choose to believe that KC has a fairly accurate read of the situation (and not because he's being misdirected by Bulls' insiders) and that Paxson considers ANY of the "Core Four" to be virtually untouchable.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

my inclination is also "Pax isn't that stupid." 

Considering what's been said about this situation generally, I can't believe it's even possible that Noc and the NY pick could get it done. If this is corroborated or verified later, I'll be convinced that Paxson unknowingly had a massive lobotomy at some point in the past few months. I doubt even his fiercest critics would have guessed he wouldn't do a deal like that. It would truly boggle the mind.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> I'm just commenting on the commenters who furrow their brows at "speculation" and the ill-mannered "second-guessing" that, you know, is sort of the reason for boards like these exist.


Actually, the boards are for fans to discuss their favorite teams.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> Considering what's been said about this situation generally, I can't believe it's even possible that Noc and the NY pick could get it done.


I just want to be clear about what was said during these interviews.

They didn't say that Nocioni, the pick and a couple expiring contracts was enough to get it done from West's side. Just that its closer to what he's looking for than what is currently on the table.

They also made it pretty clear that Paxson was loathe to give up any member of the "core 4," so such a deal is apparently not going to happen. 

According to these guys, the deal is "dead" and its not going to happen unless West is willing to accept "next to nothing" for Pau Gasol.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> I just want to be clear about what was said during these interviews.
> 
> They didn't say that Nocioni and the pick was enough to get it done from West's side. Just that its closer to what he's looking for than what is currently on the table.
> 
> They also made it pretty clear that Paxson was loathe to give up any member of the "core 4," so such a deal very well be a non-starter to begin with.


gotcha...take away "get it done" and the rest of my post stands. If he is reluctant to include Noc, the only reasonable explanation is that he's had a lobotomy recently.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

ScottMay said:


> I'm just commenting on the commenters who furrow their brows at "speculation" and the ill-mannered "second-guessing" that, you know, is sort of the reason for boards like these exist.
> 
> Perhaps one day we'll have signed and sworn affidavits from all parties involved in the great Paxson-West discussions of 2007, and everyone will be satisfied. Until then, I'll choose to believe that KC has a fairly accurate read of the situation (and not because he's being misdirected by Bulls' insiders) and that Paxson considers ANY of the "Core Four" to be virtually untouchable.


So K.C is "fairly accurate" while Sam Smith, Marty Burns, and ESPN just fabricate their inside information? I think there are too many conflicting reports at this point to just pick one out of a hat and run with it. 

Personally, I enjoy speculation when it lets the fans express opinions about what players the team should target, how highly the team's own players should be valued, and what the asking price might be for different players around the league. People realize it's mostly fans and reports speculating so there's no harm there. I'm not such a big fan of critiquing executives based on incomplete and questionable information because doing so requires adopting a specific, unsubstantiated set of facts. "Pax should _offer _Deng, P.J. and Tyrus for Gasol" strikes me as a lot more harmless than "Pax should be fired because he _wouldn't_ trade Deng, P.J., and Tyrus for Gasol."


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

I was wondering how long it would be until ATS broke out in this thread. 

David Schuster is an OK beat guy and KC Johnson is one of the best around. Both are straight shooters and not sensationalists, IMO, especially KC. They were giving these reports from the media room @ Berto, which is supposedly located directly under Paxson's office, so it would be hard to find anyone closer to the action than these guys.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Are we to make anything of the fact that Chris Sheridan reported on ESPN that there is a Sweetney for Bonzi Wells rumor? (I actually did not hear this rumor, but it's beening discussed in a thread over on realgm). Would we really be interested in Bonzi if we weren't considering trading Gordon, Noch, or Deng?


----------



## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> Are we to make anything of the fact that Chris Sheridan reported on ESPN that there is a Sweetney for Bonzi Wells rumor? (I actually did not hear this rumor, but it's beening discussed in a thread over on realgm). Would we really be interested in Bonzi if we weren't considering trading Gordon, Noch, or Deng?


I suppose he can score in the post...and Skiles does like small ball

PG - Duhon
SG - Gordon
SF - Kirk
PF - Bonzi
C - Deng

That's a fearsome lineup.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> I suppose he can score in the post...and Skiles does like small ball
> 
> PG - Duhon
> SG - Gordon
> ...


Except Nocioni plays C.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

JeremyB0001 said:


> So K.C is "fairly accurate" while Sam Smith, Marty Burns, and ESPN just fabricate their inside information? I think there are too many conflicting reports at this point to just pick one out of a hat and run with it.


I must say that there's an unusual amount of variance in the reports during the last few days. Maybe it's finger-pointing and posturing by two parties of an unsuccessful negotiation. If they were converging on an agreement, I would expect the rumors to be more similar in nature.

BTW, since when did second-guessing become an unproductive endeavor? 
As a scientist and amateur historian I've always found that trying to answer What if? questions to be both interesting and enlightening. You almost always learn a bit more about how things work if you think a bit about the alternative outcomes of a forced choice, even after the choice has been made. On the other hand, it takes intelligence and creativity to speculate, so some people may find the exercise too much of a challenge.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> Except Nocioni plays C.


That works too. Deng's taller but Nocioni is more physical. Could go either way.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

These discussions have seemed a little counter-productive from both the Grizzlies and Bulls side. Pau wants to leave. Jerry West is a stubborn, old man (who I'd agree with) and doesn't want to let him leave. All I'm saying is that a lot of bad GMs trade superstars for packages that never equal up to what the superstar gave you. If Paxson really told West that a Nocioni/P.J./Sweetney/2007 1st Round Pick for Gasol deal isn't something he'd be interested in, well I'd have to question that decision. For some reason, I feel as if the bigger issue is West trying to get us to take a contract like Brian Cardinal or Stoudamire (who I'd be comfortable with actually) and Jerry and John saying "ummm no". I'll be praying a deal gets done, but its looking less and less likely.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> I was wondering how long it would be until ATS broke out in this thread.
> 
> David Schuster is an OK beat guy and KC Johnson is one of the best around. Both are straight shooters and not sensationalists, IMO, especially KC. They were giving these reports from the media room @ Berto, which is supposedly located directly under Paxson's office, so it would be hard to find anyone closer to the action than these guys.


I have no doubts about either of those guys, I absolutely love K.C. Johnson. I just have no reason to completely discredit Sam Smith, Marty Burns, ESPN, and company. It's like a science experiment. If four scientists run the exact same experiment and produce completely different results, you can't just pick the person you trust to most and go with their data. You have to admit there's a great deal of uncertainty and reserve judgment until a later time when (if?) you have more reliable results.


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## LuCane (Dec 9, 2002)

> May your next hiatus be as fulfilling as the last


My hiatus has only been from posting. I still lurk and consequently read your drivel. :wink:

Anyway, I didn't in any way state that it doesn't cover him from all angles, but a simple consideration of those angles would seem more reasonable than the conclusions being jumped to throughout the initial portions of this thread - which was the crux of my comment.

I like your attitude, though; it serves the board well. The cowboy hat, too.

Now get out there and shoot you down some management decisions! :clap:


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Noce, Thabo, NYK, and PJ for Gasol
Sweets for Bonzi

Makes sense to get Bonzi if we are to lose either Noce, Deng, or Gordon. I do like the Bonzi trade even if we don't do a Gasol trade. I do think the Bonzi trade is something we will look into for increased bench scoring.

SacBee reported a 3 way deal with us, the Kings, and Cavs.

Kings get: Snow, Gooden, Sweets, PJ
Cavs get: Kenny Thomas and Bibby
Bulls get: SAR and Donyell

if we can work that trade without Sweets and still add Bonzi, along with SAR and Donyell (BARRING that the price for Gasol is steep), I would be happy with these two trades. We send out a bunch of expirings and upgrade our team vastly. We make it a DEEP team too. 

It works if you sub Victor for Sweets, so we can send the big guy to Houston.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> Noce, Thabo, NYK, and PJ for Gasol
> Sweets for Bonzi
> 
> Makes sense to get Bonzi if we are to lose either Noce, Deng, or Gordon. I do like the Bonzi trade even if we don't do a Gasol trade. I do think the Bonzi trade is something we will look into for increased bench scoring.
> ...


Is this just a rumored deal or an imminent deal?

Blech. Please, no.


----------



## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> Is this just a rumored deal or an imminent deal?
> 
> Blech. Please, no.


I think, but don't quote me, that the Bulls are thinking PJ for SAR, Cavs want Bibby. So, they are discussing a possible 3 way deal. I don't see a Cavs-Kings deal working out without a third team. 

We need to upgrade our frontcourt. Someway somehow. I was a fan of SAR, but I don't like his longterm deal. We won't have caproom soon. But I don't think we do if we just let our contracts expire anyway. I don't want the deal if it prevents us from resigning the core. But, I think this is an alright deal if we can add Bonzi, 'Yell, and SAR. Thats a DEEP Bench to go with into the playoffs. A veteran team.

I want Gasol, and maybe this rumor is out to tell West, take our deal or we are moving on. Maybe the rumored Noce, Thabo, NYK, and PJ deal happens, and we replace Noce and Thabo somewhat with Bonzi, who will be heavily depended upon for bench fire power. Him and Griffin would be serviceable backups.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Has this been posted elsewhere:



> John Paxson dislikes having his players' names bandied about in trade rumors, so he wouldn't be happy to hear the one making the rounds at the United Center on Tuesday. The unsubstantiated talk was that a package including Chris Duhon, Tyrus Thomas, Andres Nocioni, and a first-round draft pick could seal a deal for Memphis Grizzlies forward Pau Gasol.


It's from ESPN Insider's Rumor Central today. Yes, we'd have no depth, but this wouldn't be a move just for this year. It would be a move for our future. I would do that trade, although I'd like Dahntay Jones back in the deal.

I admit, that's a lot of pieces to give up, but we're talking about Pau Gasol here. I'll give up all that to get the big guy.

Hinrich, Thabo, Barrett
Gordon, Jones
Deng, Khryapa, Griffen
Gasol, Sweetney
Wallace, Allen

Getter done, Pax. Don't let this die.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

DMD,

I wonder by "first round pick" if they mean NYK pick. I would have to assume so. I would be all over that deal if it was Thabo instead of Tyrus, but I still do that deal. Those parts are easier to replace than finding a guy similar to Gasol.

I'd wish we could do a deal like this instead to maintain some depth, Noce, NYK, and 2009 pick. Maybe add some 2nd rounders or Victor.

If the Bulls don't plan on resigning Sweets, I'd move him for Bonzi.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

JeremyB0001 said:


> So K.C is "fairly accurate" while Sam Smith, Marty Burns, and ESPN just fabricate their inside information? I think there are too many conflicting reports at this point to just pick one out of a hat and run with it.
> 
> Personally, I enjoy speculation when it lets the fans express opinions about what players the team should target, how highly the team's own players should be valued, and what the asking price might be for different players around the league. People realize it's mostly fans and reports speculating so there's no harm there. I'm not such a big fan of critiquing executives based on incomplete and questionable information because doing so requires adopting a specific, unsubstantiated set of facts. "Pax should _offer _Deng, P.J. and Tyrus for Gasol" strikes me as a lot more harmless than "Pax should be fired because he _wouldn't_ trade Deng, P.J., and Tyrus for Gasol."


----------



## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

JeremyB0001 said:


> I have no doubts about either of those guys, I absolutely love K.C. Johnson. I just have no reason to completely discredit Sam Smith, Marty Burns, ESPN, and company. It's like a science experiment. If four scientists run the exact same experiment and produce completely different results, you can't just pick the person you trust to most and go with their data. You have to admit there's a great deal of uncertainty and reserve judgment until a later time when (if?) you have more reliable results.


Ya. I wouldn't call physical proximity a big difference maker. If anything, the national media might have a bigger picture view from being 'in' on several franchises that the local guys do not.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Interestingly, David Dupree said on PTI today that he would trade Noc *or* Hinrich for Gasol. He would not trade Deng for him, straight up.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Any word of Gordon? I'm assuming Gordon and Deng are untouchable? Interesting point. I'm sure we have yet to see the Bulls final offer IF what David Dupree said is legit. I bet we'll see Noce offered first, but maybe Kirk at the very end, just prior to the deadline.

I'm seriously confused. Each report conflicts with others. The only thing we know is Gasol for both Deng and Gordon will not happen. That is the only thing we can confirm. The rest is a mess.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Fox News vs CNN vs MSNBC vs NYT vs Al Jazeera

Sam Smith vs Brian Hanley vs Dupree(who is this guy?) vs ESPN vs KC Johnson

In the end, people are going to believe and trust who they want to.

I trust the local beat guys like McGraw, Hanley and Johnson more than anyone. They are close to the team on a day to day basis and are paid to be reporters.

Sam Smith you have to get used to. Its infotainment. But, his role is a columnist, not a beat reporter. Different job.

The national guys may be more connected around the league, but I also think they are not obviously focused exclusively on the Bulls, so their read on the situation is coming from conversations they intercept, not a detailed understanding of the human beings involved that you get when you are on the beat.

The ESPN crowd and the "rumor" mills are paid to be provocative. The beat writers are paid to give an accurate description of what's going on.

Me, I'll take the reports of a solid beat reporter over nearly everyone.

But, I also know people will believe what they want to believe as well.

I'm going with the most recent take on the situation from KC Johnson.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> I'm going with the most recent report from KC Johnson.


Since so much has gone one, can you tell us what KC said again? Is it bascially there is no deal, but West might consider a deal if Pax offered Noce, which he seems likely not to?

Thanks.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> Since so much has gone one, can you tell us what KC said again? Is it bascially there is no deal, but West might consider a deal if Pax offered Noce, which he seems likely not to?
> 
> Thanks.


He said the deal is dead and that Paxson is not interested in giving up anyone from the "core 4."


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

I said this in another thread. The Wells for sweetney trade looks like something we would do, AFTER we make another trade. 

It could be for more depth, but I doubt it.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> their read on the situation is coming from conversations they intercept, not a detailed understanding of the human beings involved that you get when you are on the beat.


Do you believe the ------ that you write?

A "detailed understanding of the human beings involved"? So the job of reporting is based on intuition, not on developing leads and cultivating sources? 

If thats the case, Oprah, Dr. Phil, and maybe the Medium from NBC would be even better at this than KC and the bunch. 

Fact: The national guys graduate from local media, just like the guys on television did. And they graduated because their abilities made them standout.

Right now David Aldridge and others like him have twice, perhaps three times as many ways of finding out what the Bulls are thinking as the local media does. Because he knows people. He knows people that know people. All the GM's are clued in to what the other GM's are doing, and on and off the record he can get into those conversations from multiple angles while the local guys have only a couple.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Fact: The national guys graduate from local media, just like the guys on television did. And they graduated because their abilities made them standout.


LOL. Ridiculous. Just turn on an edition of SportsCenter. Its usually a nightly parade of fools. You say silly things. National Media understanding Chicago sports better than the good Chicago guys? LOL. We'll agree to disagree.  

I guess I'll have to read Mariotti carefully since he's "graduated" to the national media. LOL.


----

Their "abilities" may stand out. But, those abilities more often than not are career ambition driven networking , self-promotion and the ability to spin a saucy tale. 






> A "detailed understanding of the human beings involved"? So the job of reporting is based on intuition, not on developing leads and cultivating sources?


If you don't think there is a difference between being around the team every day full time and having a large rolodex of phone numbers, then once again, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Nice to see the emergency response team out.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

It's pretty obvious to me that a beat writer is going to be around Pax, Skiles, the players, and sometimes even Reinsdorf. All the things that are said aren't reported in stories as quotes. Being at Berto next to the Bulls' offices and where the players hang out is a pretty huge difference from some network type anchor who can get some of these things from occaisional phone calls...


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> LOL. Ridiculous. Just turn on an edition of SportsCenter. Its usually a nightly parade of fools. You say silly things. National Media understanding Chicago sports better than the good Chicago guys? LOL. We'll agree to disagree.
> 
> I guess I'll have to read Mariotti carefully since he's "graduated" to the national media. LOL.
> 
> ...



Mariotti is your idea of a journalist?

I mention Aldridge, and you mention Jay?

Give it a break.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Soulful Sides said:


> I mention Aldridge, and you mention Jay?


You mentioned that people from the national media graduate from local media for a reason.

I agree... and its not always quality reporting.



> I sense you wish to hang with Chicago guysnat any cost. Why could that be?


This is a strange comment.

I say that I trust the opinion about the inner workings of a specific team of a quality local reporter who is around the team everyday versus a story-teller with a big rolodex perhaps with TV show dreams, and this is your response. 

LOL.

Once again, we'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Soulful Sides said:


> Mariotti is your idea of a journalist?


He "graduated" to the national media for a reason, according to you.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> It's pretty obvious to me that a beat writer is going to be around Pax, Skiles, the players, and sometimes even Reinsdorf. All the things that are said aren't reported in stories as quotes. Being at Berto next to the Bulls' offices and where the players hang out is a pretty huge difference from some network type anchor who can get some of these things from occaisional phone calls...


Not obvious to everyone apparently....


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

I think the only urgency that we have to trade anyone would be to trade our expiring contracts, which will be assets totally lost after tomorrow.

Sweetney + PJ + Khyrapa for Hilton Armstrong and Brandon Bass, or for Sean May, or if we swap out Khryapa with Thabo or even Duhon, maybe Al Jefferson? Sweets + PJ is a lot of salary to be cut. I think a team like New Orleans or Sacramento would be more likely to be interested as they have chances to be in the playoffs this year and could use the veteran experience this season before using them as cap fodder.

Hey, did someone say ejaculate? Tee hee hee.


----------



## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> You mentioned that people from the national media graduate from local media for a reason.


You are quite conveniently acting as though a *reporter* is the same as a *columnist*. They are not. Stein does not write to provoke, but to inform. The same as KC. 

You're a lot more like Jay than KC is resorting to such twisted logic just to be able to do what you want to someone you disagree with.

Your point about the local media is well taken. Chicago does have talented beat reporters. But you cannot dismiss the reports of the national media out of hand (the national level beat writers if you will) simply because they have a longer reach than the local writers do. 

I suspect the two are more complements to one another than anything.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

i think KC, McGraw, Hanley and Schuster are far more plugged into what's going on with the bulls than any national writer/TV talking head could possibly hope to be.

i believe them when they say that Pax is hesitant to trade nocioni. I think this is ludicrous thinking. 

thus, i posted a picture of a pitchfork (merely for illustrative purposes)

thank you K4E for posting the interview information. the fact that it's being questioned shouldn't surprise you. because of course David Aldridge and the like are far more connected to the current state of the Bulls than someone like KC, i mean come on man!!

so yeah, everyone is reporting something different.

and i still think at the end of the day there will be no trade for Gasol.

and that's a shame. 


:yes:


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Soulful Sides said:


> Your point about the local media is well taken. Chicago does have talented beat reporters. But you cannot dismiss the reports of the national media out of hand (the national level beat writers if you will) simply because they have a longer reach than the local writers do.
> 
> I suspect the two are more complements to one another than anything.


We agree.

I'm glad to see a departure from your first take.



Soulful Sides said:


> Do you believe the ------ that you write?
> 
> A "detailed understanding of the human beings involved"? So the job of reporting is based on intuition, not on developing leads and cultivating sources?
> 
> ...


----------



## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

> "The number one thing you do as a beat reporter is develop relationships with people,” he says. "That's what I really enjoy because it's about building trust and using people skills to develop sources."


KC Johnson

http://www.beloit.edu/~belmag/03spring/03spr_profiles.htm


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Soulful Sides said:


> KC Johnson
> 
> http://www.beloit.edu/~belmag/03spring/03spr_profiles.htm


And its those grass-root relationships that enable him to better understand the human beings involved in these situations and have a much better understanding, IMO, about what's going on with the Chicago Bulls.

His drawback is that he's likely not as plugged in to the NBA Power Network as some of the big time national guys.


----------



## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> And its those grass-root relationships that enable him to understand the human beings involved in these situations and have a much better understanding, IMO, about what's going on with the Chicago Bulls.
> 
> His drawback is that he's likely not a plugged in to the NBA Power Network as some of the big time national guys.



So heres the question...does a national guy lose his connections when he goes national? Or does having multiple sources become an asset?



> Marc Stein began writing for ESPN.com in 2000 and signed on full-time in 2002 to serve as the site's Senior NBA Writer...Before joining the ESPN family, Stein covered the league for more than five years at the Dallas Morning News, first as a Dallas Mavericks beat writer for three seasons (1997-2000) and then two seasons as an NBA columnist. He previously covered the Lakers and Clippers for the Los Angeles Daily News and has also worked for the Washington Post, Orange County Register and San Bernardino Sun .


Folks are acting as if all the national guys do is read the local guys reports on a web site and call someone from their rolodex now and then. 

Not true. They're out in the basketball cities working the various organizations as hard as the locals do. And they've got local stringers working under/for/with them. 

Its a petty argument. Believe what you will, but KC and the Tribune don't have anything on the Bulls that the national media doesn't...because they'd stick his mug all over their television shows and print media if he did.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Soulful Sides said:


> So heres the question...does a national guy lose his connections when he goes national? Or does having multiple sources become an asset?


If KC went national, 5-10 years down the line when there is likely a new regime in charge and a different roster, I would expect a high quality, established, local beat reporter to have a better feel for the Chicago Bulls than national KC.



Soulful Sides said:


> Its a petty argument.


I agree.

Why did you decide to make it?


----------



## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

I think K4E and Soulful are both making valid points here. 

But just to add, I've seen sportswriters from fox, espn, or markets other than the markets of trade participants be the first to break stories too many times to assume that local media knows more than national media as a default position. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. 

I have no idea which is the case here. I only know 2 things. First, I want Pau. Second, I don't believe one shred of the "Nocioni is a deal breaker" angle.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> I agree.
> 
> Why did you decide to make it?


To out you as cheering for the home team writers based on something other than a firm grasp of the facts.

Back to cherry-picking posts?


----------



## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> If KC went national, 5-10 years down the line when there is likely a new regime in charge and a different roster, I would expect a high quality, established, local beat reporter to have a better feel for the Chicago Bulls than national KC.


And now you should realize, especially given what Cey said, that that does not automatically follow.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> But just to add, I've seen sportswriters from fox, espn, or markets other than the markets of trade participants be the first to break stories too many times to assume that local media knows more than national media as a default position. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.


When its being a first responder to a breaking story, a wired in to the NBA power network reporter can have a huge advantage.


When the question is "what do you think paxson will do and why?" I'll value the opinion of the quality local beat reporter highly.



> Second, I don't believe one shred of the "Nocioni is a deal breaker" angle.


I'm not sure where this "angle" is coming from. According to KC and Schuster, Nocioni likely isn't in any deal to be broken. The deal is "dead" and West will have to accept not getting a member of the "core 4" in order to make a trade with Paxson.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Soulful Sides said:


> To out you as cheering for the home team writers based on something other than a firm grasp of the facts.
> 
> Back to cherry-picking posts?


This is a gross misinterpretation of what I'm saying.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> When its being a first responder to a breaking story, a wired in to the NBA power network reporter can have a huge advantage.
> 
> When the question is "what do you think paxson will do and why?" I'll value the opinion of the quality local beat reporter highley.


What is this "NBA power network"? Its not coming up on Wikipedia or Google. Did you make it up?

Why not value the opinion of someone who knows the thinking of both the GM who Paxson has to make the deal with _and_ Paxson? Seems to me that he'd be able to add color and nuance to his report that the local guy who only knows one side would...


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Soulful Sides said:


> And now you should realize, especially given what Cey said, that that does not automatically follow.


Actually, if the beat reporter does not have a better understanding of his/her individual team than the national person, they are pretty lousy at their jobs.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> Actually, if the beat reporter does not have a better understanding of his/her individual team than the national person, they are pretty lousy at their jobs.


Even if the national guy has a relationship with Paxson going back to Paxsons playing days?

As much as it may _seem_ to make sense, the industry does not automagically fall into neat corners and straight lines that way.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Soulful Sides said:


> Even if the national guy has a relationship with Paxson going back to Paxsons playing days?


But the established beat reporter also has a strong relationship with Paxson.

And covering the Bulls is his/her full time job.

Listen, I agree with you that a quality national reporter has advantages that a quality beat reporter likely does not. When it comes down to a "gut feel" assessment of the Bulls though, I'll value the word of the quality person with the established, extensive and thorough local connections highly. 

I’m going with KC on this one. You can disagree or ATS if you want to.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Showtyme said:


> Hey, did someone say ejaculate? Tee hee hee.


Seems to be a lawyer thing.


----------



## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> But the established beat reporter also has a strong relationship with Paxson.
> 
> And covering the Bulls is his/her full time job.
> 
> ...



Theres only so much a local reporter can do with the folks he covers. And the national media has the same access, and many times deeper roots.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Soulful Sides said:


> Theres only so much a local reporter can do with the folks he covers. And the national media has the same access, and many times deeper roots.


The national media has 1/30th the access.

This "debate" is rather silly.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

DaBullz said:


> The national media has 1/30th the access.
> 
> This "debate" is rather silly.


I think thats a silly statement. Justify it please.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Soulful Sides said:


> I think thats a silly statement. Justify it please.


A guy like Aldridge spends 1/30th of his time talking to each of the 30 teams. A beat writer spends 100% of his time talking to the team he covers.

On TNT after a game, they might interview Ben Gordon for 5 minutes. That's only if the Bulls are on TNT that night.

The beat writers are in the locker room and at the post game press conferences for just the one team and for every single game.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

First, no one here's a reporter, right? So essentially, everyone is unqualified to make any sort of "argument", unless it's based on logical observation alone.

Second, thre is no logical observation at all, unless someone wants to go back and try to timestamp the first time any rumors of a trade released have gone through because a local writer or a national writer reported it first. It's theory, with very very little data for basis other than our errant and constructive memories. 

In my opinion, though, David Aldridge and Marc Stein don't really know crap. Mel Kiper doesn't know jack either. Neither does Jay Bilas. And I suspect that Chad Ford is an android whose physical movements are telekinteically controlled by David Stern (yes I know androids need not be telekinetically controlled, they're androids, but if you were David Stern wouldn't you/doesn't he telekinetically control everything? that's what I wanna know).

But the little they know is really marginally more or less what the local writers know. Why? By virtue of the Information Age, everyone basically knows everything at around the same time. A writer wouldn't keep information secret, and I'll bet you that NBA "national beat" guys have an RSS feed or such set up to get them info as soon as it's released. They may or may not confirm this with other sources.

Here's the final piece of logical reasoning that I might contribute to the dialogue: a national writer might have a better idea of what's going on in terms of BOTH sides of a deal. I'd expect McGraw or KC to know what's going on with Pax more than the Android or Marc Stein, but I wonder how much McGraw or KC know what's going on in Memphis or Portland compared to Stein or Android.

Chad Ford just ejalucated his jeans (hey, David Stern's a lawyer too).


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Showtyme said:


> First, no one here's a reporter, right? So essentially, everyone is unqualified to make any sort of "argument", unless it's based on logical observation alone.
> 
> Second, thre is no logical observation at all, unless someone wants to go back and try to timestamp the first time any rumors of a trade released have gone through because a local writer or a national writer reported it first. It's theory, with very very little data for basis other than our errant and constructive memories.
> 
> ...


I was a member of the Newspaper Association of America for 4+ years. I do have quite a bit of industry knowledge.

FWIW


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

"Paxson will only give up this many of his core."


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

Wow, thanks for the read guys. THat's was great insight and perfect example of what I believe to be happening (minus the elaculating.......) between West and Paxson:


West: Gasol is yours for two of the core + PJ and the Knick Pick
Paxson: My brother was a GM of the Cavaliers
West: YEs, he was thrown out out of the business for being weak as a gm
Paxson: JErry, What's it gonna take to get Gasol from you guys
West: Do you know that I am the Logo of the NBA
Paxson: I'll give you a 10 game courtside seat package, free Condom Mints and a Tyson CHandler signed jersey
West: So you guys want Gasol right?
Paxson: I'll have to see how the White Sox do in Spring training
West: OK, Pax, One of the four, PJ, Thabonation (for marketing purposes) and the Knick pick
Paxson: I was a better broadcaster than Mike Fratello
West: We fired Frat
Paxson: OK, here's my final offer: TT, THabo, PJ, Sweetney, the Knick Pick, The guy who drives our bus and the art of dealing with media training seminar hosted by Ozzie Guillen.
West: For Who? You know I'm retiring this season. 
Paxson: COngrats, this job is stressful.
West: I agree. Good luck, you're a good man.
Paxson: So are you. Bye.



As they hang up, both think, wow, that guy is out there.

Inspired by the musings of Soulful Sides and the king himself - K4E!

Now back to As the Pau turns...............


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> Fox News vs CNN vs MSNBC vs NYT vs Al Jazeera
> 
> Sam Smith vs Brian Hanley vs Dupree(who is this guy?) vs ESPN vs KC Johnson
> 
> ...


Did you read my post at all? Without credible evidence that certain sources are completely unreliable, withholding judgment is the most prudent an reasonable course. Sorry but if you're jumping to the conclusion that as a beat writer K.C. has the accurate scoop while the reports of other sources both national and local who rely on similar sources are completely unfounded and worthless, the only conclusion I can reach is that you're weeding through the rumors for the "information" which best suits your agenda. K.C. Johnson and Sam Smith work in the same office, likely 50 or 100 feet away from each other. I can't see how else you can unquestioningly accept one's report as true and lable the other as "infotainment." This isn't one of Smith's ridiculous trade _suggestions_, it's based on sources and if K.C. has knowledge that his co-worker is spouting out falsehood in the media and has failed to raise the issue or help his co-worker weed out his bad sources, he should lose his job.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

God, this thread has been ridiculous for the last few pages. The fact of the matter is there are widely varying reports over what is happening approaching the deadline tomorrow. That is to be expected. The best you can do is look at all the reporters and what they are reporting and balance that with what incentive the people making the comments (like the GMs) to say whatever it is they say to the media and draw your best conclusions. The idea though that someone is right b/c their reporter is clearly better than someone else's reporter on the site is beyond silly. By tomorrow night we'll know what's happened. I don't think we need to cut down each other for believing one article over another until that point.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I'm a little confused on this whole Sam Smith vs. KC Johnson vs. whomever thing.

What, exactly, are these reporters suggesting that's much different. Smith's latest article is titled "Bulls try to keep core yet get Gasol". 



> In it he says, "Is it worth a final offer of, say, Luol Deng, Thabo Sefolosha, the expiring contracts of P.J. Brown and Michael Sweetney and a top-three protected first-round draft pick? The belief in Memphis is the Grizzlies would take that...


And he goes on to say, 


> Though many believe the teams will talk again Thursday morning, both were saying Wednesday they doubted anything would develop.
> 
> Don't be surprised if the Bulls make a different deal, though it might be contingent on other trades.


So Smith is stating his belief that Deng, Thabo, Pick gets it done, and he's stating that the Bulls probably won't be willing to do that.

OK, I spose that's different from not being willing to give up even Noc by himself, but it's not different enough to me when the key point is I'd be willing to do the deal Smith suggests and Pax apparently would not.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

MikeDC said:


> I'm a little confused on this whole Sam Smith vs. KC Johnson vs. whomever thing.
> 
> What, exactly, are these reporters suggesting that's much different. Smith's latest article is titled "Bulls try to keep core yet get Gasol".
> 
> ...


From what I'm reading on Marc Stein's Daily Dime, the hold-up appears to be Luol. West wants him, Pax doesn't want to give him up. I've also read a couple of times about how Gordon is the one Pax would be willing to trade. I'm curious if the hang-up is Pax wanting to deal Gordon and West wanting Luol instead.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> Sorry but if you're jumping to the conclusion that as a beat writer K.C. has the accurate scoop while the reports of other sources both national and local who rely on similar sources are completely unfounded and worthless,


Once again, you are building strawmen.

"completely unfounded and worthless?" Never said that. 

I'll go with the opinion of KC and Schuster from what's going down on the Paxson side.

West very well may be demanding Deng. But, if Paxson isn’t willing to part with any of the “core 4”… that does not really matter. There is no realistic deal to be made.



> the only conclusion I can reach is that you're weeding through the rumors for the "information" which best suits your agenda.


Haha. Now who is playing the speculation game? 




> I can't see how else you can unquestioningly accept one's report as true and lable the other as "infotainment."


I trust KC's judgment and take on the situation.

Sam Smith is "infotainment." He'd be the first to tell you. You have to know how to read between the lines of his stuff.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

The one thing that all reports seem to agree on is that the probability of a trade going down between Memphis and Chicago is low. 

I hope they're all wrong, but we shall see in a few hours.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> > the only conclusion I can reach is that you're weeding through the rumors for the "information" which best suits your agenda.
> 
> 
> Haha. Now who is playing the speculation game?


Why didn't you answer his assertion with a yes or a no? We could have saved 3 or 4 pages in this thread that way...


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

McBulls said:


> The one thing that all reports seem to agree on is that the probability of a trade going down between Memphis and Chicago is low.
> 
> I hope they're all wrong, but we shall see in a few hours.


*National* NBA writer Marc Stein reports:

>>The Bulls continue to be linked to Sacramento's Shareef Abdur-Rahim in their search for a low-post score because Chicago's well-chronicled talks with Memphis to acquire Pau Gasol, according to one well-placed source, "aren't even on life support at this point."

Marc Stein is the senior NBA writer for ESPN.com. <<

He must be getting that from Sacramento, because KC Johnson would have reported it two weeks ago if it were true from Chicago's side.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Soulful Sides said:


> Why didn't you answer his assertion with a yes or a no? We could have saved 3 or 4 pages in this thread that way...



Everyone has theories about the "true agendas" of posters.

I don't see how such talk adds to the basketball discussion, so I try not to partake in it.

If you disagree with KC Johnson’s take that Paxson is not interested in parting with any member of the “Core 4” ... Then fine.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Soulful Sides said:


> He must be getting that from Sacramento, because KC Johnson would have reported it two weeks ago if it were true from Chicago's side.


Yah, that seems to make sense, since Paxson apparently does not want to part with ANY member of the "Core 4"... and Reef can perhaps be acquired with only exp contracts.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Local Paper the Sacramento Bee reports that Geoff Petrie said "We have nothing going on with Chicago"

(No link because it requires registration)


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## Bulldozer (Jul 11, 2006)

So if Rahim can be had for those expiring contracts, who would he split pt with? Obviously he isn't the same player he used to be, and can't even go 30 minutes anymore. I liked this player 5 years ago, but he's still better than Brown's geriatric ***


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Doesn't Mcgraw's article in another thread regarding King/Wennington/Perdue say that Memphis is demanding 2 of Hinrich/Deng/Gordon?


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