# i live in ga



## grizzoistight (Jul 16, 2002)

and its a joke what the hawks are doin..
they have  a top 5 arena and no one comes to watch!!
they have a horrible mix of players
and they have brought up 4 guys from the nbdl that is a joke!!! 
i mean one maybe 2 at the most but 4!!!
who know what they are trying to do.. but i hate to say it they are worst than the bulls..


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>grizzoistight</b>!
> but i hate to say it they are worst than the bulls..


Must you always insult other teams. Do you have anything knowledgeable you'd like to add to your posts. Or can we just expect the same crap continually.

Reef, Terry, Ratliff, Robinson underacheived. But they haven't played much with each other, thus not developing a rythym together. They also need a better coach.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

..... and you're not even a Hawks fan. It's people like you who give fans a bad rap. You root for the up and coming teams at the moment, and when the Hawks get on top again, you'll have sweared you were a loyal Hawks fans.

Remember. It will feel that much sweeter to be a fan of the organization when they go all the way. How sweet it will be to win it all after living through all the miseries.


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## Scuall (Jul 25, 2002)

What do you mean by "again?"


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## (-) 0 † § I-I () † (Jun 11, 2002)

*haha*

Be easy on each other guys, sure the Hawks are very underacheiving, but not every scenario of good palyers will work. 
Personally I think they need coaching, but I still find it hard to believe that a trio of GROB, REEF, and Terry cant get more wins.

GIve it time I suppose.


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## MPK (Oct 20, 2002)

exactly, the big 3 have underacheived, but the question should be asked: will they ever mesh and form a coesive unit that can make a run in the playoffs??


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MPK</b>!
> exactly, the big 3 have underacheived, but the question should be asked: will they ever mesh and form a coesive unit that can make a run in the playoffs??


This is a great question. I believe that the HAWKS did not underachieve this season but rather were a poorly constructed unit from the outset. Therefore, I see no cohesion formulating the longer they play with each other.

Jason Terry: Tweener player that is exciting to watch yet is a shooting guard in a point guards body and as a result doesn't provide the necessary playmaking that this team needs.

Theo Ratliff: Great defensive presence center that has lost a step and has seemed to be pacing himself throughout this season to avoid further injury.

Shariff Abdul-Rahim: Versatile player that can play the 3 or 4 spots and is gifted offensively. Yet, no significant presence on the defensive end and like three other players in the starting line-up, commands the ball too much. As a result, he seems alittle lost when playing off the ball and watching Terry or Glen Robinson exhibit solitary offensive schemes rather than a team game.

Glenn Robinson: Streaky shooter that gets hot. Yet, horrible defensively and always seem a step slow when guarding small forwards in this league. Example: New Year's day embarashment where the rookie Caron Butler just lite him up on both ends of the court. 

So, when looking at this team, the result is that there are four offensively gifted players that have trouble with team oriented ball movement and defensive schemes.

Conclusion: Babcock better stop firing coaches such as Lon Kruger and get busy this off season to revamp this team once again.

My approach: Keep Rahim who is already under contract and keep Terry who will be a restricted free. Trade either Robinson or Ratliff for a true first or second tier playmaker. Perhaps, the Bulls would be inclined to trade a tall PG like Crawford so that Terry could play more off the ball offensively and not be such a liability defensively since a taller PG like Jamal may be better adept at covering SGs in this league. Finally, no more embarashing promises to fans about making the playoffs. LOL!

BTW, I am not a HAWKS fan. So, if I said anything stupid, please don't hesistate to correct me.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Nah, you got it good. Except we could never get a first tier play maker for Big Dog. Heck, I'd just be extatic if we could trade him for expiring contracts but even that is near impossible since nobody would want him and his salary. Same goes for Theo, not many teams will willing deal even talent for an injury prone shot blocker with little offensive game.


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GeorgiaSports</b>!
> Nah, you got it good. Except we could never get a first tier play maker for Big Dog. Heck, I'd just be extatic if we could trade him for expiring contracts but even that is near impossible since nobody would want him and his salary. Same goes for Theo, not many teams will willing deal even talent for an injury prone shot blocker with little offensive game.


LOL! I was hoping for HAWKS' fans that I got it wrong. Sounds pretty dismal.

Good luck.


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## (-) 0 † § I-I () † (Jun 11, 2002)

*dismal doesnt begin to describe it.......*

Its one thing for Bulls and Nuggets fans having young talent and draft picks to look forward to. But when you know you are probably going to have to sit with the same team for more years to come, its rough. 

I think if we could trade GROB , we woiuld take anything. Hopefully Mark Cuban will someday lose him mind and trade for him. OTher then that all the other gms probably dont even consider. But maybe with the right coach next year, we can gel, and become what we thought wed be.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

*How to fix the Hawks*

Maybe a good coach who can command some respect and instill some defense can do it.

They might be wise to do something like try a Henderson for Jerome Williams and Mo Peterson trade. I could see that working for both sides. Henderson's contract is up two years before Williams' and he could give them the frontcourt help they need. They'll more likely than not be able to get replacement swing players in the draft.

Williams would bring toughness and Mo Pete would bring a nice scoring ability.

Not a big trade, but it's not a financial killer and it would be a step in the right direction for both teams.


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

*Re: How to fix the Hawks*



> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> Maybe a good coach who can command some respect and instill some defense can do it.
> 
> They might be wise to do something like try a Henderson for Jerome Williams and Mo Peterson trade. I could see that working for both sides. Henderson's contract is up two years before Williams' and he could give them the frontcourt help they need. They'll more likely than not be able to get replacement swing players in the draft.
> ...


No respectable coach is going there this summer. Not with management constantly flipping which course of action they want to pursue.

Also, I don't see Toronto pursuing that trade. Atlanta, I think, would jump all over it. But, Toronto will definately not trade Mo Pete and JYD for Henderson even when factoring in length of contracts.

BTW, I don't think that Atlanta even has its pick this summer to add the replacement swing players that you are referring to.

Lastly, why would Toronto trade Mo Pete and JYD for Henderson when they are not in any sort of a rebuilding mode yet. I thought they are waiting to play next season when hopefully everyone can remain healthy (i.e., Vince Carter, Davis, etc.)


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

*Re: dismal doesnt begin to describe it.......*



> Originally posted by <b>(-) 0 † § I-I () †</b>!
> Its one thing for Bulls and Nuggets fans having young talent and draft picks to look forward to. But when you know you are probably going to have to sit with the same team for more years to come, its rough.
> 
> I think if we could trade GROB , we woiuld take anything. Hopefully Mark Cuban will someday lose him mind and trade for him. OTher then that all the other gms probably dont even consider. But maybe with the right coach next year, we can gel, and become what we thought wed be.


I agree. Hang in there. But, unfortunately, I don't see the right coach stepping into your situation given the fact that you guys are set with this roster without realistic moves.

BTW, any news on whether or not the HAWKS will keep Terry this summer. I know he is a restricted free agent but how much do you think the HAWKS are going to set as the limit in matching rights?


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## grizzoistight (Jul 16, 2002)

*um right gasports*

i payed money to watch a couple games this year and its a waste of time..
the hawks had every single guy on the trading blocks
they are gonna cut their best up and coming guy in dermarr..
their gm is a joke and is booed at every game
they go through coaches like every other month
they are pittiful
they dont want to pay the players
the big 3 didnt underacheive
since when did terry do well in the playoffs?
since when did big dog do well?
since when did reef ever win??
its not underacheiving.. babcock has made some awful moves ..
the hawks are goin no where for a long time


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

On Toronto and Henderson for JYD, I see a couple benefits for the Raptors.

1. They need interior help. Aside from Antonio Davis, can you name anyone in the Raptors interior rotation? I can't.

2. Salary cap-wise, this helps the Raptors becaus of Henderson's shorter contract.

3. I'll concede that MoPete + JYD is probably asking for too much. 

4. Just a straight up trade, of Henderson + JYD wouldn't be a rebuilding trade for the Raptors... if anything, I think it would help them now. They could start Davis, Henderson, Carter, Peterson, and Williams, which is a more balanced lineup than what they have now.


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> On Toronto and Henderson for JYD, I see a couple benefits for the Raptors.
> 
> 1. They need interior help. Aside from Antonio Davis, can you name anyone in the Raptors interior rotation? I can't.
> ...


Okay, to address the earlier proposition of Atlanta's draft pick this season - I believe the Bucks got the pick as part of last summer's trade.

Also, the straight up trade of JYD and Henderson doesn't work cap wise so I assume you would through in some filler players and I simply do not see anyone else on the Hawks roster that the Raptors would want.

Lastly, you have to explain to me why the Raptors would even consider trading JYD for Henderson if it was even possible in a straight up trade. 

Aside from the two shorter yrs in length of contract, I really do not see the Raptors trading JYD for Henderson when JYD has almost 5pts and 5 reb more than Henderson per game.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JerryMaGuire</b>!
> 
> 
> Okay, to address the earlier proposition of Atlanta's draft pick this season - I believe the Bucks got the pick as part of last summer's trade.
> ...


Big deal. The trade deadline is passed anyway, but you can always throw in some junky player to make the deal work because the salaries aren't that far off. The Raps would have to include a filler player, not the Hawks. So the Raps throw in someone like N'Dyiae to balance things out. Such players are completely replaceable.



> Lastly, you have to explain to me why the Raptors would even consider trading JYD for Henderson if it was even possible in a straight up trade.
> 
> Aside from the two shorter yrs in length of contract, I really do not see the Raptors trading JYD for Henderson when JYD has almost 5pts and 5 reb more than Henderson per game.


Because Henderson can legitimately play PF and has about 40 lbs of muscle on JYD. He's getting 5 and 5 less playing 18 mpg behind Ratliff and Rahim. JYD on the other hand, is playing 33 mpg. Of course he's putting up bigger numbers when he's playing an extra 15 minutes a game!


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> Big deal. The trade deadline is passed anyway, but you can always throw in some junky player to make the deal work because the salaries aren't that far off. The Raps would have to include a filler player, not the Hawks. So the Raps throw in someone like N'Dyiae to balance things out. Such players are completely replaceable.
> ...


Excellent points but I still don't see it. Maybe I'm just tired but personally I believe that JYD earns his minutes while Henderson is delagated to a bench role. 

JYD in contrast brings so many intangibles to the Raptors: heart, hustle, intensity, motivation and all with 5 extra pts and rebounds while he earns every minute. Henderson, however, is bringing nothing to the current HAWKS line up that JYD consistently brings to the Raptors. Therefore, I see this as a horrible trade for the Raptors.

Maybe its just me though. Let's propose it on the Raptors board.


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> Because Henderson can legitimately play PF and has about 40 lbs of muscle on JYD.


Could you do me a favor and post a link to where you got this information from. JYD is 6'9 and 225 and Henderson is 6'9" and 240.

I definately believe you that JYD is giving up 40 lbs of muscle but I would like to see the information myself.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JerryMaGuire</b>!
> 
> 
> Could you do me a favor and post a link to where you got this information from. JYD is 6'9 and 225 and Henderson is 6'9" and 240.
> ...


http://www.nba.com/playerfile/alan_henderson/index.html?nav=page Henderson is 6'9" 230

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jerome_williams/index.html?nav=page Jerome is 6'9" 225


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> 
> 
> http://www.nba.com/playerfile/alan_henderson/index.html?nav=page Henderson is 6'9" 230
> ...



Thanks vintage. I was using numbers on ESPN which had a larger gap between them. It seems the numbers you posted only have 5lbs seperating them so I want to know what info gives Henderson having 40lbs more muscle than JYD. Do you have a link for this info?


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JerryMaGuire</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks vintage. I was using numbers on ESPN which had a larger gap between them. It seems the numbers you posted only have 5lbs seperating them so I want to know what info gives Henderson having 40lbs more muscle than JYD. Do you have a link for this info?



No. I never knew there was a 40 lb difference in muscle between them. I doubt there is. Henderson looks bulkier than JYD. At least last year that was the case, haven't seen either of them this year.


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> No. I never knew there was a 40 lb difference in muscle between them. I doubt there is. Henderson looks bulkier than JYD. At least last year that was the case, haven't seen either of them this year.


Okay, thanks anyway. Personally, I wouldn't say that Henderson is bulkier than JYD but even if he is, JYD is pretty cut and tone. Therefore, I would like to find the info where he is giving up 40lbs in muscle to Henderson.

I agree that Henderson is muscular and could pose as a decent PF for any team. But, I see him at this point in his career as a delagated bench player while JYD brings the following traits to the Raptors:

Ranks #10 in the NBA in Rebounds Per Game(9.3) 

Ranks #9 in the NBA in Steals Per Game(1.76) 

Ranks #12 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds(170.0) 

Ranks #3 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per Game(3.4) 

Ranks #4 in the NBA in Steals Per Turnover(1.35) 

Ranks #16 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(4.9) 

Ranks #16 in the NBA in Steals Per 48 Minutes(2.53)


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JerryMaGuire</b>!
> 
> 
> Okay, thanks anyway. Personally, I wouldn't say that Henderson is bulkier than JYD but even if he is, JYD is pretty cut and tone. Therefore, I would like to find the info where he is giving up 40lbs in muscle to Henderson.
> ...


I wouldn't trade JYD for Henderson. JYD is an energy player. Henderson isn't. Henderson is a short PF. JYD can play SF/PF and brings more to the table IMO.


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> 
> 
> I wouldn't trade JYD for Henderson. JYD is an energy player. Henderson isn't. Henderson is a short PF. JYD can play SF/PF and brings more to the table IMO.


I agree 100%


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Henderson 6'9" and 235

http://www2.realgm.com/src_playerfile.php?playerid=87

JYD 6'9" and 206

http://www2.realgm.com/src_playerfile.php?playerid=484

Could be wrong, but that's the published information I was going off of.


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> Henderson 6'9" and 235
> 
> http://www2.realgm.com/src_playerfile.php?playerid=87
> ...


Well, it appears that we have a predicatment since nba.com, espn.com and realgm.com all pose different weights.

Personally, I wouldn't use realgm.com for info since they are generally the last to update things such as free agent lists and the like. But, I do see now how you used their 29 lbs differential to get to a difference in 40lbs of muscle between the players.

So, lets just concede that weight and muscle wise their is not a substantial difference between the players.

Therefore, what do you think about the points that Vintage and I made regarding what JYD brings to the Raptors and what Henderson brings to the Hawks? Did I sway you yet that this is a bad trade for Toronto or do you still like it?


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> JYD on the other hand, is playing 33 mpg. Of course he's putting up bigger numbers when he's playing an extra 15 minutes a game!


Also, maybe its just me but I have never liked and understood when people attribute more rebounds, pts and other benefits to players if they were given more minutes. 

I don't know why but it never works for me in any credible way. In fact, it denies talent and many other tangible and intangible attributes and blindly attaches more of everything with more minutes given. 

This is just my personal preference though so feel free to ignore this if you want.


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## (-) 0 † § I-I () † (Jun 11, 2002)

*..*

Personally I also think that Atlanta would be getting a much better deal. JYD is a hustler , and athletic crowd favorite as opposed to Henderson an older player who has shown glimpses but its aware he does not ahve a future starting with the Hawks.

I think it wouldnt make sense because, first JYD wouldnt get much pt behind , GROB, REEF, THEO, and splitting with NAZR. 

Jerry your points regarding stats per minutes are interesting. But many things must be factored in when looking at stas. Like JYD is ranked very high in offensive rebounds. Well I dont know off hand, and am to lazy to look , but I would guess that the Raptors fg% isnt great, so he may get more chances.

Henderson plays behind GROB and REEF, and Theo is a rebounder, as opposed to JYD who has probably only Antonio Davis that rebounds.

So in conclusion (since I probably contradicted myself a million times), the trade doesnt make sense for either team. JYD wont get great minutes in ATlanta, and he is a crowd favorite in Toronto. 


Sorry if my comments are crazy but I am falling asleep as im typi...........................


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

*Re: ..*



> Originally posted by <b>(-) 0 † § I-I () †</b>!
> Personally I also think that Atlanta would be getting a much better deal. JYD is a hustler , and athletic crowd favorite as opposed to Henderson an older player who has shown glimpses but its aware he does not ahve a future starting with the Hawks.
> 
> I think it wouldnt make sense because, first JYD wouldnt get much pt behind , GROB, REEF, THEO, and splitting with NAZR.
> ...


I think your comments are excellent and eventhough you agree with me, you gave me new insight into this possible trade that I never considered (i.e., displacement of JYD on the HAWKS roster).

BTW, there is only 1 yr seperating them in age but I agree with your assessment of both as players and what they bring to their respective teams.

I will check team FG percentage later because if you are correct, I think this is another excellent point regarding why JYD is a more prolific rebounder at this point in his career then Henderson. I am inclined to say that there is not a significant difference between the two clubs. But, I will check.


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

*Re: ..*



> Originally posted by <b>(-) 0 † § I-I () †</b>!
> 
> Jerry your points regarding stats per minutes are interesting. But many things must be factored in when looking at stas. Like JYD is ranked very high in offensive rebounds. Well I dont know off hand, and am to lazy to look , but I would guess that the Raptors fg% isnt great, so he may get more chances.


Well, Atlanta does have a team FG % of 43% while Toronta is almost at a team FG % of 42% so you may be right in this assessment. Personally, I see JYD earning his minutes at this point in his career while Henderson is a delegated bench player. Perhaps, Henderson would get more offensive rebounds if he landed with the Raptors. But, again, when I view a player in a bench role on one lottery bound team, I tend to view him in a bench role if he landed with another lottery bound team even if the Raptors would have no one that beats him out at PF after this proposed trade. For me, it is a question of talent and intangibles at this point in their careers.


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## (-) 0 † § I-I () † (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: ..*



> Originally posted by <b>JerryMaGuire</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, Atlanta does have a team FG % of 43% while Toronta is almost at a team FG % of 42% so you may be right in this assessment. Personally, I see JYD earning his minutes at this point in his career while Henderson is a delegated bench player. Perhaps, Henderson would get more offensive rebounds if he landed with the Raptors. But, again, when I view a player in a bench role on one lottery bound team, I tend to view him in a bench role if he landed with another lottery bound team even if the Raptors would have no one that beats him out at PF after this proposed trade. For me, it is a question of talent and intangibles at this point in their careers.


Yes I agree with you, since Henderson is not geting minutes on the HAwks , he probably wouldnt on other teams. But then again , he is a vet and I maybe other teams who want to win now, could be interested (most likely doubtful with his contract).

Also JYD seems more attttractive of a player to me, just because of his heart. He is a fan favorite and that draws fans. Also , even though this should not really matter, his style with the headband and high socks, may give him more of a fan base then Henderson and his normal gear.

I am sure there are a lot of things that could factor into these guys stats and what not, maybe some day they will land on the same team and solve the answers.


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## JerryMaGuire (Feb 23, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: ..*



> Originally posted by <b>(-) 0 † § I-I () †</b>!
> Also , even though this should not really matter, his style with the headband and high socks, may give him more of a fan base then Henderson and his normal gear.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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