# Rap's Need a Trade



## lucc19 (Feb 24, 2005)

We Need To face the facts, the raptors team right now is not that good... we need a trade. also if what people are sayin is true and TJ will be out for a long time, it is more clear that a trade must be done... for one we have way to many people that play SF, with no true Center, the time is now... i would like to hear what everyone thinks


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

I just think that last year at this point things looked just as bad. Our D was horrible and showed no signs it could improve. But it did.

This is also a very tough month with an easier January to follow. We are in the middle of the pack in the East and can afford to wait til closer to the deadline.


----------



## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

STOP BAITING


----------



## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Jizzy said:


> STOP BAITING


Why do you even bother?

If Evans were so good Philly would not suck so bad. Iggy, Miller, Big Sam, all seem good on paper, but they can't get it done. Evans has no offensive skill, does not block shots, and would not fit in with the system Toronto runs. 

I would spend some time worrying about your crap *** team!


----------



## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

here we go again with the 'reggie evans' is our savior bullcrap.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

looks like that VC game winner is pumping up Jizzy's flame engine.


----------



## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

We need a back up PG, C we just gotta role with Rasho- Bargnani-Humhries,

Dixon, graham & a future pick for a decent vet back up PG


----------



## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

how about trading carlos defino to the sonics for delonte west? delonte west is a good shooter and he plays smart passes. he doesn't have the best passing skills but he doesn't attempt anything risky. he would actually be a very good fit for this team, imo. sonics don't need him with watson and ridnour already, but they could use a good swingman better than damien wikins. delfino could be their guy.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Delfino is our best perimeter defender right now, I don't think trading him away is a good idea. 

Our need for a PG really depends on TJ's health. If he can come back sometime in January, then we would only need a 3rd string PG that's better than Darrick Martin. If TJ is out for the season, then perhaps we need to get someone better, maybe Anthony Johnson or someone of that caliber.


----------



## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

i was under the impression tj could be out for a while(maybe a full season) in which case trading delfino, one of our 4 sf's(others being moon, kapono, graham) for a position of need isn't such a bad idea. you need to give up value for value, and delfino, with his skillset and defense makes a solid swingman could get us a good pg like west. west's stock is really low right now. the sonics have an abundance of pg's, west simply hasn't been healthy, I just don't think the sonics would miss him at all.

anthony johnson's a good player but he wouldn't fit the direction of the team as well being as old as he is.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Out of those 4 SFs, Delfino is the only one capable of guarding quality wings. Moon and Graham lacks the savvy and Kapono lacks the physical tools. I don't think we should leave a bigger hole in this area for the sake of getting a backup point guard. Our defense is already our major weakness, I just don't see BC making a move that will make it even worse.

Anthony Johnson is a short term fix for our team, I don't see him remain effective after next season at the most considering his age. He fits the criteria of a PG that takes care of the ball and can hold his own defensive wise especially against bigger guards. But then again I don't think he is available since news just came in that Speedy Claxton is out for the year (again). Until Acie Law develops, the Hawks will have to work with Anthony Johnson since they can't afford to let a rookie jeopardize their playoff hopes.

Carlos Arroyo might be a name that we can take a look at. Magic can use someone like a Joey Graham off the bench considering they just gave up Trevor Ariza.


----------



## lucc19 (Feb 24, 2005)

I feel the raptors should trade Parker... he is not that great of a player and we could get somthing for him... trading joey would be a mistake, he is still a young guy... and has not got a chance to really show what he can do this season... for one gettin kapono was a big mistake, the guy is not that good of a player... to me carlos is the best guy we have... he is a great player and we should make room for him and joey... i say trade AP or Kapono... if not both... raptors really need a C and maybe a guy who can play PG/SG... if the raptors were smart, they would have asked roko ukic to come over this year... play with the big team. i still dont know why we have D martin?? does anyone?

just give him a suit and add him to the coaching staff like ****


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

c_dog said:


> how about trading carlos defino to the sonics for delonte west? delonte west is a good shooter and he plays smart passes. he doesn't have the best passing skills but he doesn't attempt anything risky. he would actually be a very good fit for this team, imo. sonics don't need him with watson and ridnour already, but they could use a good swingman better than damien wikins. delfino could be their guy.


.....

yeah, lets trade away our best perimeter defender and rebounder for a sg stuck in a pg's body, who cant even find time on one of the worst teams in the league.


----------



## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

No point in making a deal since there is no deal out there that we can make which will significantly improve our team to NBA Finals status. We're better served to just stay pat and improve the team needs that we have through the offseason. Pickup a 2nd/3rd string PG in free agency and draft a big who can shift Bosh to the 4 spot like Devon Hardin or Joey Dorsey.

D-Mart aint perfect, but as a 3rd PG, mentor, and chemistry guy, he isnt bad. I would just have Juan take over the 2nd PG duty and limit his minutes to 5-10 per night.


----------



## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

bigbabyjesus said:


> .....
> 
> yeah, lets trade away our best perimeter defender and rebounder for a sg stuck in a pg's body, who cant even find time on one of the worst teams in the league.


i suggest west because 1.he has low market value right now and should be cheap to acquire 2. he is a solid pg--think antonio daniels but with a jumpshot

delfino is a dime a dozen sf/sg. he can shoot it and is a pretty good defender, but i question his decision making. i for one, haven't been happy with some of the decision he makes. as i said earlier, you need to give up value for value so it's not like we can trade away derrick martin and expect anything good in return. delfino's stock is relatively high right now and arguably the highest its ever been.

i think the team needs a backup pg more than it needs delfino. i believe colangelo can always find a replacement swingman but pg's are much harder to find.


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

delfino is only 25, again our best defender, perimeter rebounder.. his desicion making is no worse than anthony "mj fadeaway" parker and jamario moon who is a complete liability on offense, and is starting to become one on defense as well.. plus delfino makes up for it because he actually attacks the basket 3-4 times a game, and can play minutes at the point.

we're not trading him for a STOPGAP at the 1. stop acting like TJ is not going to play again.

joey graham+juan dixon could land us delonte west probably. he just isn't that good. giving up delfino for him would be pure stupidity. i would love to see how fast seattle would accept that and then laugh at us. TERRRRIBBLE


----------



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

lucc19 said:


> I feel the raptors should trade Parker... he is not that great of a player and we could get somthing for him... trading joey would be a mistake, he is still a young guy... and has not got a chance to really show what he can do this season... for one gettin kapono was a big mistake, the guy is not that good of a player... to me carlos is the best guy we have... he is a great player and we should make room for him and joey... i say trade AP or Kapono... if not both... raptors really need a C and maybe a guy who can play PG/SG... if the raptors were smart, they would have asked roko ukic to come over this year... play with the big team. i still dont know why we have D martin?? does anyone?
> 
> just give him a suit and add him to the coaching staff like ****


 
So you want to trade AP and JK to keep Graham? That must be some good **** you smoking.l Graham should go play in europe, the kid is done. He'll be a decent rotation player on a lottery team.

I feel like AP doesn't contribute as much as last year. Don't know what happened but if we trade him, we need to get a good SG in return. With Moon and Kapono, 2 specialists, AP looks redundant, he is not bad, he is good, but just not as good as Kap in shooting and not as good as Moon on the defensive end.

If anything, we should ship Delfino + Graham for a solid C. We are good at the 2 and 3 with AP, Kapono and Moon. Dont' forget we still have Garbo and Gnani that can play the 3.


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Garbos out for the year, and Bargnani cant play the 3.

We're not trading for a centre anytime soon. We're trying to develop Bargnani there. And Humphries/Rasho will eat up any minutes left over at the 4/5.

A more immediate need is a slasher on the wing imo. Parker should be shipped out, Delfino does what he does better, and hes younger.


----------



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

but fino has more value so we can get more out of him.


----------



## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i'll preface this by saying what i've maintained since the beginning: this team is not in need of tangible change, be it a new player or new rotation or what have you. if there is an ingredient lacking, it is of the intangible variety, might be leadership or something in that category. i mean, all the proof we need is already at hand: as individuals, our team is already underachieving greatly. in that sense, we already have much skill we're not using. throwing more skill onto the pile may, if anything, only make our collective underachievement even worse.

bargnani
parker
kapono
arguably bosh

are three (maybe four) major pieces that have provided far less than they did even last year. why? the answer to that question is what we need to add, and chances are it's not in the form of another player.

now, what i wanted to say was this: maybe it's time to try bargnani at the 3. our team talks a lot about his future at the 5, but i've always seen him at the 3. i mean, exactly what would make that a bad play? does he lack outside shooting? absolutely not. handles? maybe, but whatever size advantage he has on his check would cancel that out as well. what's more, perhaps he could fit with chris a little better if they're not in the paint together.

bargnani, to this point in his development at least, is a guard in a big's body. so why don't we see if he could work on the perimeter? may as well try, given how dismal his game has been this year.

but again, regardless of the change we make in that sense, i don't think it'll turn things around very much. this team is missing something else. and whatever that is, adding more talent is not the solution imo.

peace


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I do agree that the Raptors don't need to mess with their core even though they have underachieved. But if TJ is going to miss more time, we do have the need for another PG.


----------



## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

i also thought about bargs at the 3. why does he need to be dirk? why can't he be rashard lewis/hedo turkoglu/peja stojakovich? it's something the raps can try.

i don't think trading for a pg is that bad of an idea, especially if you're getting one by practically giving up nothing. if they can get a pg by trading dixon and graham, great, but i would think opposing teams would want a little more than that. graham and dixon don't even seem like they will be playing in the nba beyond their current contract, especially graham. i wouldn't even consider delfino that valueable to the team. he's a good rotational player, but i don't think the team misses a beat if you give his minutes to 90% of the other swingman in the nba.


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Right now Bargs footwork and coordination are well behind that of Dirk and even Yi from what little I have seen. Forget about Rashard Lewis. Dirk is much more fluid off the dribble and a better finisher jumping off one or two feet.

Parker and Kapono are both top 4 in the league in 3pt%. That is the bulk of their role offensively. Parker seemed to contribute more last year but was his game really that different? I haven't been watching the replays of last years games.

I think our core is fine but just needs some consistency and chemistry defensively. Rotations are still not solidified and two of our smartest team defenders and ball movers on O are not in our starting unit now with Garbo and Rasho. That is a big change and something I mentioned here in pre-season.


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

we just desperately need a second scorer

the question before we make a drastic trade is, can Bargnani become that scorer, and can it be fairly soon?

i think he can.. how soon i'm not to sure, hopefully by the playoffs. 

we also need tj ford desperately for penetration. we have no consistent slashers other than him.


----------



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Gnani can, no question about it. I think his offensive ceiling is higher than Bosh.


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

no doubt man.

i still think we just need a scorer on the wing though

not necessarly a star, just someone that can slash, and get to the free throw line.

tj ford can, but he's proven to us hes fragile, and he would thrive with another scorer on the wing.. it would take so much pressure off of him..


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

it would've been nice if we picked up Trevor Ariva from the Magic when they were practically throwing him away. Watching him the past couple of games the guy can play when he's in the right system.


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Isn't Ariza kind of like Moon? Never really seen him play much.

And it was a very fair trade for both teams. Cook is an very nice PF next to Howard and the other guy was another of those incredible athlete types that never developed into anything. Started with SAC then just sat on the bench in DET and didn't do much with opportunities in LA. Decent value each way. Hopefully the pieces fit better on their new teams.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Actually, Cook has been atrocious since arriving in Orlando, scoring a grand total of 22 points and 6 rebounds in 11 games. The Magic fans over on their forum are already fed up with him, he is basically a less effective Pat Garrity. The Magic have enough big men camped on the perimeter and Cook really doesn't give them anything that Turkoglu and Lewis are already providing. I think because Tony Battie is out for the season, Magic wanted to get some depth in their frontcourt but Cook isn't the right player. Mo Evans is a similar player to Ariza, just 7 years older and not as athletic.

Ariza reminds me of Deshawn Stevenson. Right now he is only a slasher and an open court player but if he develop a jumpshot like Stevenson did, he can be quite effective. The guy is only 22, so it's likely that he'll improve. Doesn't have a lot of basketball IQ though, and I don't know about his work ethic.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Darius Washington was waived by the Spurs earlier today. He was backing up Tony Parker before Jacque Vaughn came back and I think did an okay job at it. He would be a guy that the Raptors could pick up to help out on our PG situation. Former players from the Spurs are usually quite disciplined in shot selection and is good at taking care of the ball.


----------



## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

seifer0406 said:


> Darius Washington was waived by the Spurs earlier today. He was backing up Tony Parker before Jacque Vaughn came back and I think did an okay job at it. He would be a guy that the Raptors could pick up to help out on our PG situation. Former players from the Spurs are usually quite disciplined in shot selection and is good at taking care of the ball.


Randy Livingston just put up 22 assists to set a D league record. He is averaging 11 dimes per game and shoots 95% from the free throw line. He is not a big offensive threat, but I think he would be a huge upgrade as a third point guard. Martin becomes guaranteed January 6th I believe, so will will know for sure if he is staying by then.

Oh ya! Randy has good size at 6'4"...................


----------



## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

sin Randy to a 10 day


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

According to the Globe and Mail



> The prime trade candidates are guard Juan Dixon, who has seen uneven minutes even with an opportunity to play as an emergency point guard with T.J. Ford out, and forward Joey Graham, whose role has all but disappeared with the emergence of Carlos Delfino and Jamario Moon.
> 
> "Juan Dixon has value, [as does] Joey Graham, and both are probably unhappy with their role right now," Colangelo said before the Christmas break. "It's great to have depth, but managing depth is a different story. This time of year guys start getting a little chippy, they battle in practice and they all want to prove they belong on the court."


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20071228.RAPTORS28/TPStory/Sports

Maybe that's why Dixon is getting minutes now because BC wants to showcase him for a trade? I think Graham can help some teams if they give him minutes.

I hope a trade does indeed happen. It might be what we need to turn the corner and be a few more games above .500.


----------



## Zuca (Dec 4, 2003)

Can Damon Stoudamire or Damon Jones fit our needs at third stringer PG? Neither? Both?


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Stoudamire probably could, but don't know if he's willing to come up here again. Damon Jones is like Juan Dixon.

On 2nd thought, Stoudamire's contracts expires after next year, don't know if he can still play next year with his age and injuries. That's too big of a risk at over 4 mil per.


----------



## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

which team in their right mind would be trading for dixon and graham anyway? shoot first pg and swingman with low iq and bad coordination are about the last thing teams would want. i don't think these two will be playing in the nba beyond their current contract. i honestly would rather see the raptors fill their roster spot with more gems like parker, moon, garbo, etc and not the same recycled scrubs in the league.


----------



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Dixon has value, Graham on the other hand, I gave up on him.


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

seifer0406 said:


> Darius Washington was waived by the Spurs earlier today. He was backing up Tony Parker before Jacque Vaughn came back and I think did an okay job at it. He would be a guy that the Raptors could pick up to help out on our PG situation. *Former players from the Spurs are usually quite disciplined in shot selection and is good at taking care of the ball.*


lol, this is Darius Washington your talking about...

I do like Marcus Williams though, who they cut Darius for, then proceeded to cut Marcus for Demarr Johnson today..


----------



## Zuca (Dec 4, 2003)

seifer0406 said:


> Stoudamire probably could, but don't know if he's willing to come up here again. Damon Jones is like Juan Dixon.
> 
> On 2nd thought, Stoudamire's contracts expires after next year, don't know if he can still play next year with his age and injuries. That's too big of a risk at over 4 mil per.


Both Damons have contracts 'till the end of next season. Damon Jones is more of a PG than Dixon, that's for sure.



c_dog said:


> which team in their right mind would be trading for dixon and graham anyway?


Memphis, in order to get Dixon expiring contract. That's why I was thinking about some trade with them. JUST an idea for thought:

Memphis send Damon Stoudamire to Cleveland and Stromile Swift with a 2nd rounder to Toronto;
Toronto send Dixon, Garbajosa (isn't he injured for the rest of the season?) and Graham to Memphis;
Cleveland send Damon Jones to Toronto;


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

I was just thinking about the restricted FAs we thought we would be targeting this summer when I click on hoopshype and see Pietrus wants out.

To me he is the kind of all around wing we really need. Somebody you throw out there for 30mpg every night instead of messing around with Moon, Parker, Kap, and Delfino.

I would see if GS would be interested in a combo of Graham, Kapono, Moon or Graham, Kapono, Parker for Pietrus and Bellinelli. 

Kapono would help them win now and give Baron even more room to operate. Graham gives them a physical wing who runs the lane well and finishes. Parker or Moon rounds out the offering and gives them flexibility

MoP may not have been a great player but he did contribute in multiple ways. He shot the 3 well most nights, he ran the break well, he rebounded fairly well, and he worked hard on D taking a charge every game. Other than Delfino none of our wings are really doing that now. Pietrus may not be the shooter that Kap is but if he can give us more on D and rebounding than Kap, and better O than Moon he could be our starting SF and help us improve overall. If we snag Bellinelli as well that would be a huge win for us and give us a great shooter off the bench.

The current platoon system is not working for the Raps.


----------



## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

damon jones is wack as hell.. he can't even dribble. he shoots thats all.. he is basically a better dressed darrick martin.. its pathetic.

i like the idea about *ariza*, he's got alot of potential, but no jumper.. i've known & repped for him since he attended high school in LA, he got alittle name out there, but as also said, he is a pretty similar player to jamario moon... jamario has the better jumper & is the better blocker but ariza attacks the basket more then jamario w/ alot more swagger.. both could be great defensive players in time, they have all the tools.

this could be showcasing Juan Dixon, and Joey Graham is young enough to not really need a showcase, if we can package them for a scoring/attacking wing/forward that would be great...


----------



## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Joey and Juan to Golden State for Pietrus. GS needs a back up for Davis with Hudson out for the season and Joey gives them a 3/4 with a little more beef off the bench. 
Pietrus wants out of GS and Toronto could be a nice fit. Moon is not the answer at the starting small forward spot. If we are not going to go with Kapono in that role maybe the French flier would be the answer.


----------



## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

^ that would be interesting.

i wanted pietrus over kapono in the offseason.. soo if we got both that would be awesome, and they compliment eachother..

moon, parker, kapono, delfino & pietrus is sick.. tho i'm not sure how well pietrus is at slashing, getting to the basket/line.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Pietrus would be a good addition. I remember many of us wanted him this offseason but people thought that he would sign for more than the qualifying offer. In an article Pietrus said that the Warriors are making him play the 4 position and that's why his numbers are down. If GS wants someone to play PF, Graham would probably do a better job at it since he has more size.

If we can get Pietrus, we would be able to move Delfino into the starting lineup or even start Pietrus and move Moon to the bench where he is more effective. We can have a lineup of

Bargnani
Bosh
Delfino
AP
Calderon

Kapono/Moon/Pietrus/Humphries/TJ or 3rd PG as our backup.


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Pietrus would be just another player in the "platoon." I like him as a player but his inconsistent jumper would keep him battling for minutes.

I think our wing platoon is pretty money, myself. Moon, AP, Kapono and Carlos with Joey for backup? It's the best wing rotation we've ever had. They just aren't fully clicked in yet. They'll get there.

I don't think we need a trade right now. We just need TJ back.


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

c_dog said:


> i honestly would rather see the raptors fill their roster spot with more gems like parker, moon, garbo, etc and not the same recycled scrubs in the league.


LOL at calling those guys gems.

there all below average at there positions, especially moon, who _might_ be the worst starter in the league


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Pietrus's jumper is actually not that bad, it's at least better than Moon's jumper. I like Moon's rebounding, but there are times where it is better for him to come off the bench.


----------



## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

bigbabyjesus said:


> LOL at calling those guys gems.
> 
> there all below average at there positions, especially moon, who _might_ be the worst starter in the league


i'd say anthony parker is a very solid player. i don't think his stats nearly tell the entire story of what he does for the team. He's a guy who can play solid defense, hit the open shot, and even give us a little something offensively if we need it. he's definitely a gem considering the raps give up nothing in aquiring him.

garbo is totally being forgotten, but he is a solid bench player, and he provides some toughness and veteran experience. garbo is a true professional and again, raps give up nothing.

maybe young people these days have short term memory but parker and garbo were two of the team's major catalyst for their success last season.

as for moon, you can pick on him all he want now that he's hit the rookie wall, but fact is he's athletic, he's proven he can play in this league. i've seen more from moon in these ~30 games than i've seen out of joey graham the last 3 years, joey graham who we wasted a first rounder on. i just see a lot more promise out of moon than i see joey. moon can play, joey is hopeless.

if BC can find a guy similar to the caliber of parker/garbo to be our backup pg, it would help the team immensely. don't tell me anybody is content with dixon/martin there.


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Joey has never gotten the extended minutes for consecutive games like Moon has this year. Never. 

Closest he came was end of last year when it was an emergency situation and Sam had no choice. What happened? Graham suddenly showed his best play of his career. Coincidence? Don't think so. Then Joey had some sort of injury. That's been an annoying thing with Graham - his surprising lack of durability in limited PT. That's why Moon even got the chance to play this year. Joey was out early when the opportunity for minutes came. Joey looked good in his PT this year too.


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

In regards to Pietrus, why do we need another completely average wing? We need a wing that is a slasher, can get to the free throw line, and just score for us in general. Pietrus is not that guy at all. He'd rather camp behind the 3 point line.

I don't see how hes better than Parker, Carlos, Moon or even Joey Graham.

I agree with lucky777's... I think its time to bench Moon and play Joey. He provides us with MUCH more toughness, and he actually gets to the free throw line consistently. I don't know what Mitchells infatuation with Moon is, but its quite obvious teams have figured him out and they are just abusing him on the defensive end of the floor.


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Take a look at the defense and rebounding Mitchell's team is starting to play though. Moon is consistently making an impact on the game and Mitchell obviously sees him at an important cog in his system. He makes basketball plays. I'm a big Joey supporter but he doesn't get my nod over Jamario right now.


----------



## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

you guys should have made a pitch for Ariza when he was in orlando, ya dig


----------



## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

moon is ariza w/ a better jumpshot & greater shot blocking skills, ariza can get to the line & really attacks the basket strong tho, similar to a joey graham.. ariza & moon also rebound pretty similar to eachother.

btw Moon had a really nice game last night.. 8pts on better then 50% shooting, 10 boards, 2stls & 3 blocks, back to what we were used too earlier this season.

we have beat two really good top 5 western teams in the past week so we should chill on this trade talk for now... 

either sam has smartened up and realized darrick martin is just fat or he is showcasing juanny... probably if he's dealt, it won't be anything we thought of.


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Jizzy said:


> you guys should have made a pitch for Ariza when he was in orlando, *ya dig*


easy there


----------



## Balzac (Jun 29, 2006)

Parker is a solid player. He's a good defender, could create his own shot, and has a lethal 3 point %. Garbo, imo, was overrated last season, especially on D. Moon is a temporary plug in the starting lineup. His style of play is more suited for coming off the bench. 

As far as Joey Graham is concerned: he seems like an average player in so many respects. The Raps wanted him to develop into a stopper, but obviously that's not going to happen. They wanted him to develop a post game, this he did accomplish. But he's not tall enough to play PF, and he's too stocky to play SF. He doesn't have the size to compliment his style of play, and he's not skilled enough to play as a slow SF. With that said, some teams could use a player like him. I see good value for a package like Dixon and Graham. Possibly for a slightly below average true PG we could use until Ford comes back (if he does).


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Just to be clear.

I like Moon. He has incredible tools. But he also lacks experience and confidence out there at times and needs to sit at times when he is struggling. Keep him as the starter for now, but shorten his leash a little. His flashy plays sometimes hides the fact that he hurts us out there at other times.

Garbo is underrated, like Rasho in a way, because he doesn't have flashy plays or highlights. He does the right things at the right time without any delay. As opposed to Moon who is physically quicker but pauses or delays making a play because he has to think about it. That mental quickness advantage, from experience, makes Garbo a better fit in an offense built around quick ball movement, low turnovers, and good decisions. And defensively a guy like Garbo who gets into the right position every time and understands spacing will cause the other team to make an extra pass, or travel, or take a longer path to get to the basket than Moon who gets smoked 3 times and then makes a flashy block on the fourth time.

Joey's D is bad on SF's. Very little improvement shown, partly because he wasn't allowed to work through mistakes. But we could have used his aggressive offense this road trip to attack the rim and get some FT's. Moon was hesitant, didn't move the ball crisply, and his shot was in a major slump. What's the point of a deep bench if you don't use it when a starter is struggling? Especially when one wing is all finesse (Moon) and you have a power wing like Joey sitting there for matchups where Moon gets manhandled.

And looking at Pietrus' stats he looks remarkably similar to a MoP to me. At 25 he would seem to be a nice piece with no major weaknesses to his game. I would like a wing combo of Parker/Pietrus/Delfino/Graham over what we have now with Moon/Kapono/Parker/Delfino just because Kap has major weakness on D and rebounding.

MoP was a flawed player but he could help you in a variety of ways on any given night. While a Kap has to shoot well or you can't play him at all. Simiilar to Dixon.


----------



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Kap is more valuable than MoP or Pietrus especially when you have the likes of Parker, Garbo, and Fino on the team.


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I really like having the best catch and shoot player on my team.


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

What I don't like about specialists is that you have only 5 men on the court at one time, only 2 wings. So when one of your wings has a glaring weakness it doesn't really help you to have the other skills on the bench. The only skills that count are the ones you have on the court at that moment. With specialists on the court you always have major weaknesses at their position.

So is it not better to have a guy who does everything pretty well than 3 guys who only do one thing well? I am not 100% on this myself but I do find something lacking in this platoon system and like what Delfino brings in all areas despite being a streaky shooter. Having 3 Delfino's would be easier to rotate because you just go with the hot shooter since they all would give you the same D and rebounding.


----------



## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Kapono is not as bad a defender as we make him out to be. He may not be a great one on one lock down guy, but his team "D" is solid, and that goes a long way towards wining games. He is also more then just a 3 point shooter, he has shown the ability to put the ball on the floor a little and use a one dribble pull up move as well.


----------



## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

i cosign billy findlay, kapono gets a pretty bad rep for defending, but as far as that goes, he is not as bad as we make him out to be, he is a great help defender, he really tries which is all you can ask for, yes he picks up cheap fouls but those are mostly off hustle plays where he finds himself out of position not always due to himself.

he gets taken advantage of man to man, but that is why we have 4 other guys on the court.. kapono is more then just a catch & shoot guy, he can put the ball on the floor, create off the dribble & is very good in a 2 man game where he can hit the open 3.

shipping off graham or dixon for pietrus would not bother me so much.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

As long as the other team doesn't have 2 star wings on the court, you can always hide Kapono in your defense. That is why he comes off the bench now instead of starting. When he starts, he will always be matched up with the other team's 2nd best wing.

Kapono has been incredibly consistent so far. When his team mates gets him open shots, he almost always knocks them down. It is when he had to create for himself that he struggles.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Carlos Arroyo has been playing some good ball as of late, perhaps we can offer Graham and Dixon for him? Keyon Dooling is another guy that we might be interested. Both players are good at going to the basket, though both tend to shoot a bit too much for PG. Dooling is kind of like Dixon but is more athletic.


----------



## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

Dooling is not that good. Besides, I doubt Orlando would want to make a move.

The Raptors need rebounding and an third PG. Just for ****s and giggles: Damon Stoudamire, if he's bought out by Memphis. He's not the best option out there but at least he's better than both Martin and Dixon combined. And he's fearless. Not sure what the Raps fans would think of him but at least some would be able to bust out those old pajama top jerseys. :biggrin:

I'd still like to see Kirilenko in TO. But that's not going to happen for numerous reasons, number 1 being his contract.


----------



## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by *lucc19 !*
> 
> We Need To face the facts, the raptors team right now is not that good... we need a trade


As a fan, having realistic expectations helps deals with the mediorcity that is the Raptors

at 17-17 the Raps are every bit the 0.500 ballclub that I expected them to be. Luckily our GM BC, has more patience than the average fan and has the the vision to let his plan take effect without making hasty decisions.

If a beneficial deal was out there to improve the team in the near term and in the future I would trust that our Gm would act, but those deals are far and few. 

But now if ur talking about temporary stop gap fixes or "bandaid" solutions, no thanks we had enough of those with Glen Grunwald.


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Unless there's a trade that makes us a contender, what's the point? 

Maybe a trade to drop right out of the playoffs with some added young talent in hand? 

The more we struggle this season, the more experience our young talent gets and the better draft position we'll be in. That's the crux of the situation. 

With TJ and playing well, we're a competitive team. We're not a team built to make big trades, however, until next year. 2008-9 is the year where BC will decide whether to take us up a level toward contention or back a step toward the lottery. 

Right now we're going through growing pains and there's nothing wrong with that. Patience is a virtue.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

You don't become contenders overnight. If the team has shortcomings, why not improve it bits by bits? I don't think it's a bad idea that we trade away our extra pieces for pieces that fit.

Also I don't think it's necessary to take a step back this season considering the prospects for next draft. Next year's draft is full of small guards. The chances of us not getting someone we need is too great to tank the season.


----------



## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

that is what i'm saying, who really expected we'd be contenders half way through BC's 2nd season here.

we _are_ still going to make the playoffs, we still have a very GREAT chance to surprise some teams if we aren't facing a detroit or a boston in the 1st round.

guys like juan dixon, joey graham can be okay players.. in a different settings, we just need inside toughhness & rebounding, + a scoring able wing/forward.. BC will find that.


----------



## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

it's not about being worried of missing the playoffs or what not. this team has regressed this season based upon last season's achievements and the funny thing is we didn't make a move that pushed us one step back to move two steps forward. our only losses in terms of personnel were jim todd, morris peterson and (to an extent) joey graham. you could probably throw in hopla in the loop as well as gene keany. were those guys that important to our success last season? were they the sole reason we went from a .600 in the span of 07's january to march to a span of .500 ball?

ask yourselves, does this team look better? have our key core looked good together at all?

granted the schedule was pretty bad in the from october to december much like it has always been, but it was the midpoint of december where bosh yelled at bargnani for being abused on the boards by biedrins did the raptors make their stellar push to become atlantic division champions. now it's past the first week of january and the team has played so inconsistent that the cohesion is missing. 

so really, what's there to be happy about thus far? why should this team stay content as they are when it's been 4 months into the season and nothing seems to be going right at a consistent basis?


----------



## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

southeasy said:


> that is what i'm saying, who really expected we'd be contenders half way through BC's 2nd season here.
> 
> *we are still going to make the playoffs,* we still have a very GREAT chance to surprise some teams if we aren't facing a detroit or a boston in the 1st round.
> 
> guys like juan dixon, joey graham can be okay players.. in a different settings, we just need inside toughhness & rebounding, + a scoring able wing/forward.. BC will find that.


Are we? I am not so sure. Atlanta is better, New Jersey is on a role, Washington is looking good, and the Cavs have found a groove. With Detroit, Boston, and Orlando as locks to make the post season, and the teams I mentioned looking good we better hope that Indiana does not get hot.


----------



## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

And we can't forget about Chicago as well!!!!!!!!!


----------



## fuzznuts (May 23, 2006)

Anthony Parker for Chris Duhon.

Both Chicago and Toronto are happy.


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

i'd love to see us snatch tyrus thomas away for cheap.

that is, if he is available cheap.

he will be a star once he gets out of chicago.


----------



## RX (May 24, 2006)

bigbabyjesus said:


> i'd love to see us snatch tyrus thomas away for cheap.
> 
> that is, if he is available cheap.
> 
> he will be a star once he gets out of chicago.


Tyrus Thomas for Bargnani...i have no faith in Bargnani developing into anything beyond what he is....a 7 ft spot up shooter...it was a wasted pick...Thomas+Bosh is a better complement

Not saying we shoulda drafted Thomas (in retrospect Roy or Gay would be the best choices) but thats in retrospect...i think Aldridge woulda been a better pick then Bargnani...no idea if he'd develop the same behind bosh tho...


----------



## RX (May 24, 2006)

Speaking of trades...would it be possible for the Raps to put something together to get Gasol? I'm pretty sure he'd love to come to Toronto and be re-united with his teammates from the Spanish national team


----------



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

ur on crack ^^^


----------



## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

RX said:


> Tyrus Thomas for Bargnani...i have no faith in Bargnani developing into anything beyond what he is....a 7 ft spot up shooter...it was a wasted pick...Thomas+Bosh is a better complement
> 
> Not saying we shoulda drafted Thomas (in retrospect Roy or Gay would be the best choices) but thats in retrospect...i think Aldridge woulda been a better pick then Bargnani...no idea if he'd develop the same behind bosh tho...


Ty Thomas is an athlete, not a basketball player. Accept it and move on.

Colangelo won't accept the Raptors being a .500 team. Neither should the fans. The Raptors have holes and I'm sure Colangelo is working to fix them. If the Raptors have the opportunity to plug a hole, they'll take it. The fans should not accept the Raptors mediocrity. They should agitate for positive change.


----------



## jimmybean (Jan 8, 2008)

I'd move Bargnani


----------



## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

fuzznuts said:


> Anthony Parker for Chris Duhon.
> 
> Both Chicago and Toronto are happy.


I sure as hell wouldn't be happy and I know more then half the guys on the Raptors board wouldn't be happy either. Anthony Parker is very valuable to this team. No way BC will move this guy.


----------



## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

i would not trade parker for duhon, our backcourt is small enough, & our shooting guard play as a whole has been pretty bad lately.

i don't even want to think about trading bargnani seriously right now, i feel that is premature, but i am still one of the people that thinks tyrus thomas can be a basketball player, the 21pts, 12 rebounds, 2 stls & 3 block game earlier this season looked pretty good.. if any offer was to be considered involving the guys brought up from the bulls in the past page, i'd maybe consider a Bargnani for Ty Thomas & Duhon move but that is only to humor those that brought it up.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Theres no need to trade one of our key rotation players for Duhon. When TJ comes back Duhon will be glued to the bench. We just need a guy that can run our offense for 10 minutes a game, that shouldn't be too difficult to find.


----------



## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

listen, i don't know if they need a trade. trades are often useless and only appear like 'solutions' to those who are too weak to deal with the problem. the knicks keep firing their coaches, for example. where has that led them? their problem is always their coach, it seems, even when it's a hall of famer or a hall of fame player-turned-coach.

but something has to change with the raps, of that i am equally sure. it may not be their roster, it may just be in their mentality, their mindset, their approach, but it's something. imo, they cannot just allow this ship to continue sailing like this because it will almost certainly go under at some point. might as well try something now, whatever it is, because this team is caught in a cycle and if the nba championship is really the ultimate goal, it will not be achieved by maintaining the status quo imo. 

peace


----------



## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

ballocks said:


> listen, i don't know if they need a trade. trades are often useless and only appear like 'solutions' to those who are too weak to deal with the problem. the knicks keep firing their coaches, for example. where has that led them? their problem is always their coach, it seems, even when it's a hall of famer or a hall of fame player-turned-coach.
> 
> but something has to change with the raps, of that i am equally sure. it may not be their roster, it may just be in their mentality, their mindset, their approach, but it's something. imo, they cannot just allow this ship to continue sailing like this because it will almost certainly go under at some point. might as well try something now, whatever it is, because this team is caught in a cycle and if the nba championship is really the ultimate goal, it will not be achieved by maintaining the status quo imo.
> 
> peace


100% agreed. in fact, a trade is probably my last option thus far. the players we currently have are too talented to be playing like this. 

it's the chemistry and cohesion which is lacking. something is up internally which we, as the fans, are not privy to or have not been leaked by the press yet. i don't know whether it's conflict (which i highly doubt) or mental fatigue from injury after injury to various players but something is up with this team mentally.


----------



## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

I think we give it another year with the current team as it is - no major deals, just allow for time to create chemistry and player development. If it looks like we arent headed in the right direction (that we are a top 3 team in the East), I would consider making a big move involving either Bosh or Bargnani, depending on Bargnani's development and potential to carry a team. As much as we would like to keep both, they are both too similar on offense to ever play on the floor at the same time. IMO, you cant have a PF and C on the court with neither one of them having a consistent post game. For example, I'd be interested to see if the Clips would consider dealing Kaman for either one of Bosh or Bargs especially if Brand leaves in the offseason in order to attract star power to their team and city. Or how about Bargs for Okafor and change in Charlotte. Bargs may have the bigger ceiling, but Okafor will fill a need for interior defensive help along with rebounding.

And its not like BC has shied away from making the big deal as seen through the deals hes made with marquee players involved like Kidd, Nash, and Marbury. Like Ballocks has indicated, this team seems to have plateaued and there may be a need to shake things up a bit to make it to the next level.


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

i'd love to see parker moved actually.

he's been aggressive in like 4 games this season.

most of the time hes trying his best to imitate michael jordans fadeaway jumper.

we need him to be a slasher, another scoring option that we sorely need.. but he hasn't answered. let's hope he steps up big time, because we need him to.

also, to the guy who said tyrus thomas isn't a basketball player. your a joke. hes a GREAT defensive player, rebounder and shotblocker. he might not be the most skilled offensive player in the world, but hes still really young and works hard.

just watch. he'll be a star in this league.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I can't think of another star in this league that's about 6-8 and has no offensive skills. Also Tyrus Thomas isn't a great rebounder. He doesn't have the strength like Ben Wallace or the basketball reflexes like a Dennis Rodman or even Shawn Marion. It's just hard to imagine what kind of player he'll become since many players before him with similar skillsets haven't worked out.


----------



## RX (May 24, 2006)

Bosh isn't a good goto option for the team in the crunch, its too easy for other teams to deny him position or just clog the lane...we don't necessarily need a wing that can score...but just anyone who can score at will in crunch time...whether it be a post-up big (ala Duncan) or some lights out wing player (ala Kobe)...TJ is the only one on the team that has the potential to do this but only when he is ON, by this I mean creating his own shot and scoring at will...but he's really erratic when it comes to that.

All of the top tier teams have at least one person who is clutch and has some near unstoppable aspect to their game:

SAS: Duncan (posting up)
Phoenix: Nash (shooting)
Dallas: Dirk (shooting)
Detroit: Billups (posting up guards/shooting), Rasheed (posting up)
Celtics: Garnett (posting up), Allen (shooting), Pierce (getting fouled)
LAL: Kobe (shooting) - don't know if i consider LAL top tier...but Kobe is clutch

We don't have anyone like these guys on our team, Bosh is very well rounded but can be stopped by good defensive players (like KG)...TJ has the speed/handles to drive or generate seperation and shoot...but he isn't consistent enough to be the team's clutch option.

Its like the same situation with Orlando...I was watching the Nets/Magic game a few nights ago...and on the final position Orlando relied on HEDO TURKOGLU to get the tie/win...i mean come on...wtf are they paying Rashard Lewis for...and Dwight isn't reliable enough on O yet to be that clutch guy...they are in the same boat where they are missing that clutch performer who can take them to the next level.


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

seifer0406 said:


> I can't think of another star in this league that's about 6-8 and has no offensive skills. Also Tyrus Thomas isn't a great rebounder. He doesn't have the strength like Ben Wallace or the basketball reflexes like a Dennis Rodman or even Shawn Marion. It's just hard to imagine what kind of player he'll become since many players before him with similar skillsets haven't worked out.


Man, hes 21, who says he cant develop offensive skills?

Also, Ben Wallace fits that description pretty well, albeit hes a former star and is like 6'9..

I'd say 4.7 rebounds in 16 minutes is pretty damn good. Especially when you consider those games where he gets thrown out there for 4 minutes, and gets the quick yank for the rest of the game. Also, he outrebounds our beloved _centre_ Kris Humphries.

I know what your saying though.. Not many players like him become big time players.. I just think Tyrus Thomas has "it".. I see him becoming one of the best defensive bigs in the league in a few years. I personally think he's going to be scary, imagine him in a run and gun offense.


----------



## Zuca (Dec 4, 2003)

Colangelo still wants another PG:

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/50241/20080111/raptors_colangelo_on_prowl_for_guard/


----------



## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

I question that decision ... but having depth at point guard is always an asset. Weren't we interested in Chris Duhon before? I think he is solid. I'm actually interested in Thabo Sefolosha as well ... hada great start but is in a funk recently. How about:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/featur...2377~3028~1707~2759&teams=28~28~4~4&te=&cash=

Trade Joey Graham + Juan Dixon for Chris Duhon + Thabo Sefolosha. 

Works in the trade checker, not far fetched either imo. thoughts ?


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

I don't think you can trade for a player that you signed to an offer sheet.

Remember, we signed Duhon and Chicago matched.


----------



## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

^^^^ Those restrictions (if any) ended on 15 December, as far as I know.


----------



## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

i dont know whats the infatuation over Duhon..
other PG's i like that can be had.. Jarrett Jack, Delonte West, Earl Watson, Steve Blake


----------



## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

Though I really like Jarret Jacks' game, he isn't coming in cheap at all. Its even better that he has ties with Bosh from university. However, Blake and Jack cannot be had easily on a Portland team that is on a crazy roll. Don't think they wanna have any changes to that team now. 

Watson is too small. Once TJ comes back, he would get 0 minutes. We need to get a combo guard that can play the point ... otherwise he would be a bandage solution. 

Delonte West is a fairly good player and has size. However, he is the starting PG for the sonics I think, so his price is much much higher than that of Duhon.


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

I would love Bobby Jackson, I think he's expiring.. If not he wouldn't be that easy to move when we bring Roko over..

Question is, if Nawlins will be willing to move him, for fairly cheap.

I hope to God we don't pickup Ridnour. He's overpaid, and is an awful defender.


----------



## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

juan & joey for thabo & cd would be amazing..

thabo is an athletic wing & he did a really good job defending in the playoffs last season... in the right system he will be good, he's more of a slasher then shooter... duhon would be just bonus.

i think chicago could use joey, but dixon is just another ben gordon, all offence no defence.


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

well in defence of juan, i think his pesky defense is his strongest asset, he's too much of a chucker and cant play point to save his life (on offense)


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

his size limits his effectiveness though. Small guards blow by him, big guards push him inside.


----------



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> You don't become contenders overnight.



the boston celtics would beg to differ


----------

