# Best Point guard???



## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

who is the starting PG for the all america team??

Darren Collison
Acie Law
Taurean Green
Mustafa Shakur
Aaron Brooks
Jared Jordan???

Dj Augustin, Javaris Crittenton, Mike Conley jr - froshies


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Sean Singletary


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

Singletary


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

Based on numbers it is clearly Jared Jordan.

However, when it comes down to numbers, team record/performace and importance to the team I think its between Shakur and Singletary. Ill give the edge to Shakur, because UA is 13-3 and he is 3rd in the nation in assists.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

Aaron Brooks...clutch!


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

TucsonClip said:


> Based on numbers it is clearly Jared Jordan.


What conference does he play in again? :biggrin:


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

ok my bad i forgot singletary
but i think Taurean Green, Collison and Acie Law are the top 3 right now

also Rodney Stuckey is more of a SG but he does everything for that team he definatly deserves a mention


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## soup (Sep 23, 2005)

Kudos to you guys including Jared Jordan of Marist in the discussion. He plays in the MAAC. Outstanding player.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

Drew Neitzel. Doesn't get a lot of recognition but the kid can shoot.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

coolpohle said:


> Drew Neitzel. Doesn't get a lot of recognition but the kid can shoot.


Might as well add Derrick Ravio also


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

^:laugh:


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Wow, not too many great point guards this year.


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

TM said:


> What conference does he play in again? :biggrin:


Who needs a conference when you put up 18 points, 9 assists, and 6.5 boards per game? If he could keep those turnovers down that stat line would be even better.

:cheers:


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

HB said:


> Might as well add Derrick Ravio also


Raivio only averages 2.6 assists per game...does that even qualify as a true point guard? lol...Ever since that performance against Duke I've had my doubts with him. Just a little too inconsistent for my liking.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

TucsonClip said:


> Who needs a conference when you put up 18 points, 9 assists, and 6.5 boards per game?


You're impressed with those numbers considering the teams he's played against? Um.... not me.


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

TM said:


> You're impressed with those numbers considering the teams he's played against? Um.... not me.


I was being sarcastic.

As I said originally, based on numbers alone Jordan wins hands down.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

TucsonClip said:


> I was being sarcastic.


:banghead:

i need to start paying better attention


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## apelman42 (Apr 8, 2005)

I haven't seen this Jordan kid play. Based on whom I've seen play I really like those that win championships.

Taurean Green.


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

TM said:


> :banghead:
> 
> i need to start paying better attention


Its ok, your awareness decreased due in large part from watching the monotonous Duke game earlier...

:biggrin:


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

apelman42 said:


> I haven't seen this Jordan kid play. Based on whom I've seen play I really like those that win championships.
> 
> Taurean Green.


If winning games matter.. then definetely not Shakur. If having teams play up to its supposed talent level.. then not Shakur (then again they are meeting my expectations)


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

JuniorNoboa said:


> If winning games matter.. then definetely not Shakur. If having teams play up to its supposed talent level.. then not Shakur (then again they are meeting my expectations)


I dunno why you have it out for UA... It seems like you are always looking for a way to take a shot at Arizona. Fact of the matter is, UA isnt losing because of Shakur. In fact, the only reason Arizona has been in the last few games is because of Shakur and Marcus Williams. They are the only ones who come to play every night.

Here are Shakur's stats in the last 6 game (UA is 3-3)

Stanford: (W) 18 points, 9 assists
Washington: (W) 21 points, 11 assists
Washington St: (L, OT) 19 points, 8 assists, 8 rebounds
Oregon St: (W) 9 points, 6 assists, 3 steals
Oregon: (L) 21 points, 5 assits
USC: (L) 19 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists

What is my point? There is only so much one (or in this case two) players can do. McClellan is hurt and its showing, Budinger is hitting the freshman wall, Ivan turned into captain turnover, the bench has been non-existant, and the players are standing around and watching Shakur and Marcus. 

Like I said, you can give Shakur heat for Arizona's struggles, but he cant do any more then he already is. Shakur is having one of the best season's by any point guard at Arizona ever. He is on pace to set the single season assist record, but his team's troubles over the past 6 games aren't because of him.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

TucsonClip said:


> I dunno why you have it out for UA... It seems like you are always looking for a way to take a shot at Arizona. Fact of the matter is, UA isnt losing because of Shakur. In fact, the only reason Arizona has been in the last few games is because of Shakur and Marcus Williams. They are the only ones who come to play every night.
> 
> Here are Shakur's stats in the last 6 game (UA is 3-3)
> 
> ...


Fair enough point on Shakur = good post.

As for taking it out on Arizona... I am hard headed, if I get called out on a prediction which I think makes sense, and is proving itself out, then I will comment.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

Neitzel: 11-17, 4-6 from deep, 28 points and 5 assists en route to a 91-64 rout at Penn St. on Saturday


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

JuniorNoboa said:


> Fair enough point on Shakur = good post.
> 
> As for taking it out on Arizona... I am hard headed, if I get called out on a prediction which I think makes sense, and is proving itself out, then I will comment.


Arizona is doing their best to make you look good, :biggrin:

Right now I am expecting a 3 seed, but you never know what will happen in the Pac-10 this year. The game against UNC is going to be huge, because not only will it help improve UA's seed come march, but they play WSU the next game. They cannot expect to get blown out by UNC and then come back and beat WSU. If Arizona wins or plays a close game against UNC, I think they beat WSU. However, there is a good chance they lose both games, which would have them dropping 6 out of their last 8 games.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

Yeah, I'd bet Arizona gets a 3 seed.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Dominic James anybody? Pretty clear-cut to me...


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

Jonathan Watters said:


> Dominic James anybody? Pretty clear-cut to me...


Good player, but he's a pretty poor shooter.


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

Yeah where the hell is Dominic James in this conversation?


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

he's not anywhee near "best" therefore he shouldn't be mentioned. thanks for playing though :biggrin:


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## Ghost (Jun 21, 2002)

1. Sean Singletary
2. Dominac James
3. Aaron Brooks
4. Mustafa Shakur
5. Jared Jordon


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Ghost said:


> 1. Sean Singletary
> 2. Dominac James
> 3. Aaron Brooks
> 4. Mustafa Shakur
> 5. Jared Jordon



Good list, I'd switch Mustafa with Aaron though


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Man I dunno. I like Singletary a lot, but I have to go with Aaron Brooks. Kid can play and is leading Oregon into the top 10. The only thing hurting him is that he doesn't carry himself like a true point (more Baron Davis than anything). My list looks like this...

1.Aaron Brooks
2.Sean Singletary
3.Mustafa Shakur(who wouldn't have even sniffed this list last year)
4.Taurean Green
5.Dominic James

Never seen this Jordan guy play so I can't put him in my top 5.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

SIngletary is the best college point guard.I think Dominic James is going to be better in the pros though.


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## aussiestatman (Dec 12, 2006)

i like augustin


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Dominic James is a shooting guard. He doesn't play shooting guard at Marquette, but he doesn't have the talent to be a point in the NBA, nor the college level consistently.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Poor year to watch point guards in college basketball. My two favorite PG's are freshman. Scottie Reynolds and Javaris Crittenton. Although Sherron Collins is beginning to show he really has some serious game.


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## DaBruins (Jul 30, 2003)

HKF said:


> Poor year to watch point guards in college basketball. My two favorite PG's are freshman. Scottie Reynolds and Javaris Crittenton. Although Sherron Collins is beginning to show he really has some serious game.


I disagree, I love watching the pac 10 point guards. I think Brooks, Shakur, and Collison rank better than any other conference's top point guards.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

Collison is extremely fun to watch. I enjoy his defense as much as I do his offense... Brooks isn't bad either.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

Neitzel...29 points on 9-20 shooting after nearly upsetting Ohio St. last night. Let's give the kid some love, folks...


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

And 24 of those points were in the second half to bring them back from 20 down.


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## MoscowHeel (Dec 25, 2006)

After watching Ty Lawson completely dominate Shakur on both sides of the ball, can we please never mention him on a best PG thread ever again?


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## Verro (Jul 4, 2005)

After watching the Oregon/Washington game (that Brooks missed), I'm convinced Oregon would be towards the bottom of the Pac 10 without him. So I'd have to give him the nod for this season. For long term pro impact though, I'd have to go with Augustin.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

MoscowHeel said:


> After watching Ty Lawson completely dominate Shakur on both sides of the ball, can we please never mention him on a best PG thread ever again?


Shakur wasnt that bad in that game. The problem is there was no way he could dream of guarding Lawson, there arent too many guards that can


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

HB said:


> Shakur wasnt that bad in that game. The problem is there was no way he could dream of guarding Lawson, there arent too many guards that can


Mike Conley Jr. would probably get bored with Lawson's slow pace.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Conley ISNT faster than Lawson


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## NetsKnight (Jan 29, 2007)

Nimreitz said:


> Wow, not too many great point guards this year.


There are a lot of good freshman pgs this year: Lawson, Augustin, Conley, Crittenton, Collins, Reynolds(Nova), Kemp(Memphis), 

Right now though I think it'd have to be Taurean Green. He gets everyone else on the team involved, can create his own shot, defends well, and he can take over the game with his penetrating and shooting ability.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

I think Crittenton is going to be the best out of that bunch of freshman PG's. Scottie Reynolds' is pretty damn good as well.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The point guards are coming next season: Mayo, Rose, Bayless, Calathes. Some true game changers.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

Bayless Calathes are point guards
dont know havent seen them play but i saw Bayless one game and he was much more of a scorer
and Calathes seems like a SG with good passing more than a pure PG


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

A lot of those guys coming in our scorers first, distributer second, type point guards. Bayless is my favorite out of that bunch.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I think at the high school level, we have to remember that scoring should not be held against point guards, as many of the big men on the high level, are not very adept at catching passes. Raymond Felton for example average over 25 ppg in high school and he is the definition of pass first IMO.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

NetsKnight said:


> There are a lot of good freshman pgs this year: Lawson, Augustin, Conley, Crittenton, Collins, Reynolds(Nova), Kemp(Memphis),
> 
> Right now though I think it'd have to be Taurean Green. He gets everyone else on the team involved, can create his own shot, defends well, and he can take over the game with his penetrating and shooting ability.


That's true, I *REALLY* love Lawson and Conley, and Crittenton and Augustin are having great years as well. I don't know about the other guys, but Kemp can't be that good since we all know Derrick Rose will be starting for Memphis next year.



> I think at the high school level, we have to remember that scoring should not be held against point guards, as many of the big men on the high level, are not very adept at catching passes. Raymond Felton for example average over 25 ppg in high school and he is the definition of pass first IMO.


Agree HKF. As a much lesser example, sometimes I get so frustrated at the Y by the horrendous scrubs that of course get on my team against another team of decent guys that I just stop passing unless I can't avoid it. And I love to pass! I think I'd rather set up a teammate for an easy layup than hit a jumpshot.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

HKF said:


> I think at the high school level, we have to remember that scoring should not be held against point guards, as many of the big men on the high level, are not very adept at catching passes. Raymond Felton for example average over 25 ppg in high school and he is the definition of pass first IMO.


Of course he averaged 25ppg in high school, Felton went to a 1A high school in South Carolina.

But, your point is still well taken.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Nimreitz said:


> Agree HKF. As a much lesser example, sometimes I get so frustrated at the Y by the horrendous scrubs that of course get on my team against another team of decent guys that I just stop passing unless I can't avoid it. And I love to pass! I think I'd rather set up a teammate for an easy layup than hit a jumpshot.


I've had those experiences in the past as well. As a guard, you know you can get your points, but if you don't get the other guys involved at all, no one wants to play with you, but then guys keep missing and you're already down 8-1 in an 11 or 15 point game. Not fun.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

HKF said:


> I've had those experiences in the past as well. As a guard, you know you can get your points, but if you don't get the other guys involved at all, no one wants to play with you, but then guys keep missing and you're already down 8-1 in an 11 or 15 point game. Not fun.


I find the key is to rebound. As long as they see you working they'll fall in line.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

MLKG said:


> I find the key is to rebound. As long as they see you working they'll fall in line.


I'm not going to bust my *** on defense to lose 11-4


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Jeremy Pargo anyone?


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

Jeremy Pargo is the best PG in the Nation????????????

he is solid and at times unstoppable from gettin in the lane 
but best in the Nation right now??


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

zagsfan20 said:


> Jeremy Pargo anyone?


Yeah, that's pretty silly...I'm the only one who's mentioned Neitzel and he's way better than Pargo.


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

I wish I could say Ronald Steele, but he's hobbled pretty badly...He's 50% of what he was last year.


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## MoscowHeel (Dec 25, 2006)

Cousy finalists:

DIVISION I

Bobby Brown Cal State Fullerton
Darren Collison UCLA
Levance Fields Pittsburgh
Taurean Green Florida
Dominic James Marquette
Jared Jordan Marist
Acie Law Texas A&M
Ty Lawson North Carolina
Russell Robinson Kansas
Ramon Sessions Nevada
Sean Singletary Virginia
Mustafa Shakur Arizona
Ronald Steele Alabama


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Pargo definitely deserves mention over a lot of guys that have been brought up through this thread. Aaron Brooks I believe is the best, but Pargo definitely should be mentioned.

He's averaging 12, 5 and 4.


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## DaBruins (Jul 30, 2003)

Not including Aaron Brooks in that list is highway robbery.


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## Quasi-Quasar (Jul 18, 2002)

DaBruins said:


> Not including Aaron Brooks in that list is highway robbery.


Yep... Although last night it seemed like Porter was playing PG the majority of the time, and before Porter got the duties, it seemed like Taylor played pointF.

Bobby Brown is a great scorer, but he shouldn't be on there, and Steele shouldn't given the year he's having (honoring past efforts and/or hype is plain stupid).

I'm not sure why Russell Robinson is even mentioned in consideration.

Fields is good and controlled, but not _that_ good (I wouldn't toss his name in for consideration).

Lawson is good, but he doesn't play the minutes to justifiably be the best PG IMO (his per40 is great, but he's only on the floor about half the game).

Statistically Green may not be at the top, but he and Acie Law are really the two I consider most valuable to their teams. Ramon Sessions is a big part of his team, but his performance hasn't been against strong quality and Singletary is a big part of his team's strong play, but his streaky gunning gets them in trouble too often. 

TAMU will go as far as Law takes them, and Green is an underrated glue guy to Florida's success (particularly with inconsistent players like Horford, and injuries/mono/infections affecting Noah, Brewer and co.).

I'd remove a few of those guys... Here's my list for consideration:
Taurean Green
Acie Law
Darren Collison 
Aaron Brooks (I don't consider him a PG, nor does he play a traditional PG-style game in Oregon's offensive scheme (which is often spread iso), but he is the team)
Sean Singletary 
Kyle Weaver (you could argue Weaver doesn't belong as a pointF, but he is Wazzou's Pippen)
Dominic James 
D.J. Augustin (Lawson is probably a notch above him, but PT has given Augustin opportunities Lawson doesn't have).
JamesOn Curry (that's a huge snub on the real list IMO)

And four that really shouldn't be there, but are having great statistical years against so-so competition:
Ramon Sessions (better competition and superior team standing to the other 3)

Rodney Stuckey 
Jared Jordan
Bobby Brown (he lost the head-to-head gunslinger's event to Stuckey though)

Deserves consideration, but definitely not there in terms of team MVP and leadership qualities or has been absent or injured too often)
Ty Lawson 
a few other notables (Ronald Steele, Gabe Pruitt, etc)
The Kansas guards (they play basically 3 good PGs and take each other out of the race via PT and ball/shot shortages)

Bad attitude and statements to the press cost consideration:
Mustafa Shakur (aside from his good statistical year, I don't think he should be on the list anyway considering how he has played and handled himself in losses).


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Stuckey isn't a point guard. He may play it in certain situations, but he's not considered a point guard.


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## Quasi-Quasar (Jul 18, 2002)

zagsfan20 said:


> Stuckey isn't a point guard. He may play it in certain situations, but he's not considered a point guard.


Neither is Bobby Brown really in the pure PG sense, but they are both the primary offensive initiators for their teams (if for no other reason, then by virtue of representing such a large portion of their teams' offense), and so I'll put them down as PGs for now... A lot of scoring PGs get pushed out of the category when they are the primary scoring option at a smaller school, where a team will field more skilled guards by nature of the talent pool (and so will play 3 or 4 guards, all of whom might be smaller, and so pigeonholed at PG)... Curry is also a scoring guard, but initiates and runs the offense (and at a smaller school would likely be in a similar boat as Stuckey and Brown IMO). 

Krayem isn't really a PG, so the only thing that I see strongly against Stuckey being on the list of stat-based considerations, is his poor outside shooting this year.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Acie Law hands down. If you watched the past couple games you would know what i'm talking about.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

Maybe we can finally give some recognition to Drew Neitzel now. I can't believe through 5 pages I'm the only one to have mentioned his name.


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## thrillhouse (Apr 18, 2003)

coolpohle said:


> Maybe we can finally give some recognition to Drew Neitzel now. I can't believe through 5 pages I'm the only one to have mentioned his name.


amen brother:clap:


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## DaBruins (Jul 30, 2003)

Neitzel is a great shooter but he's pretty average everywhere else.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

DaBruins said:


> Neitzel is a great shooter but he's pretty average everywhere else.


That's enough to be at least mentioned in this thread by more than one person. That team would be worse than Minnesota without him.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

DaBruins said:


> Neitzel is a great shooter but he's pretty average everywhere else.


That's not true at all.

He just does what he needs to do. Before this season people were saying he was a good point guard but couldn't score.

He's been forced to shoulder a huge scoring burden because nobody else on the team can be relied on for anything consistant.

He's an extremely crafty ambidextrous finisher and a very tough defender as well.


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## WhoDaBest23 (Apr 16, 2003)

Acie Law hands down. Everytime I watch him, he impresses me more and more. He's going to be real solid in the NBA next year. Two honorable mentions for me who I really like are Darren Collison and Tywon Lawson.


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## MoscowHeel (Dec 25, 2006)

I go with Greg Paulus. #1 PG in his high school class. Really understands the game well. So smart and heady. Controls the game wonderfully with his amazing passing skills.


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## DaBruins (Jul 30, 2003)

MoscowHeel said:


> I go with Greg Paulus. #1 PG in his high school class. Really understands the game well. So smart and heady. Controls the game wonderfully with his amazing passing skills.


He's definitely the best point guard for the opposing team.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

DaBruins said:


> He's definitely the best point guard for the opposing team.


:laugh:


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

DaBruins said:


> He's definitely the best point guard for the opposing team.


lmao


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

I think Acie Law and Darren Collison are the 2 best.. now that season is coming to an end i dont see how anyone could say its not one of them


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## AtomGreen (Jun 7, 2004)

Scoring, rebounding and assists...I've gotta go with Neitzel.

That kid is SO underrated by the masses. His performances against a top 3Ohio State team (twice) and then against a #1 ranked Wisconsin team were nothing short of amazing. Everybody on BOTH teams know where the ball is going everytime down the court and they still couldn't stop him from scoring 25 every game. 

MSU could practically yell, "*NEITZEL...WE'RE RUNNING NEITZEL*." and the opposition still wouldn't be able to stop him from getting the ball and scoring. lol

Combine his points, rebounds and assists and subtract TO's and you get *23.8*. I wonder how that total ranks with the other PG's mentioned in this thread?! I guarantee that it's up there right near if not at the top. 

Average his percentages for FG%, 3pt% and FT% and you get 58.8%

Again, I would imagine that ranks pretty favorably with the other's mentioned.


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## DaBruins (Jul 30, 2003)

AtomGreen said:


> Scoring, rebounding and assists...I've gotta go with Neitzel.
> 
> That kid is SO underrated by the masses. His performances against a top 3Ohio State team (twice) and then against a #1 ranked Wisconsin team were nothing short of amazing. Everybody on BOTH teams know where the ball is going everytime down the court and they still couldn't stop him from scoring 25 every game.
> 
> ...


Not sure how great of an indicator those stats are though. Taking a look at Collison, obviously his total is lower because he doesnt shoot as much (Neitzel averages almost 5 more FGA per game - all of which are 3-pointers). He's also averaged 3+ more mins per game than Collison. It's arguable whether Neitzel is the better shooter, Collison is shooting 53% from the Field and 51% from the 3pt line (Neitzel is ta 43 and 41 respectively). And if there is a better defensive point guard in the country, I've never heard of him.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

i think the best stats for college players are their performances in Conference Games and tough Non Conference games.. if a player is able to put similar numbers in a game at Duke as he did against Idaho State that player is really good

a lot of college players get inflated numbers in the start of the season in blowouts...
sometimes their points and rebounds are lower cuz they dont play as many minutes but their shooting percentages and A/To ratios are often much higher in the worthless games that can't really compete against the super powers...

Dominic James is an a way in example of this his Percentages and Assists are much lower in Conference games

Collison and Law stay steady and perform whenever their team needs them

I doubt UCLA would've lost to West Virginia if Collison was playing


as far as Neitzel he is pretty good and i like his game, he has also been able to perform steady against good teams
However he isnt enough of a pure PG and his assist numbers would be even worse if he didnt have the ball so much
I mean you said it yourself this year the most popular Spartan play is called Neitzel


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

fjkdsi said:


> as far as Neitzel he is pretty good and i like his game, he has also been able to perform steady against good teams
> However he isnt enough of a pure PG and his assist numbers would be even worse if he didnt have the ball so much
> I mean you said it yourself this year the most popular Spartan play is called Neitzel


I think you're confusing him being put in a situation where he is forced to be a scorer with him not being a poing guard. He's a pure point guard. I don't know if people realize this, but coming into this season Michigan State didn't have a single player on the team outside of Neitzel would had ever averaged more than 3 ppg in a season. It's hard to get assists when nobody else can score. He can't pass to himself.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

Well Neitzel is definatly a PG as oppposed to any other position on the floor he isnt a SG and obviously not a forward or center but i don't know if his passing is as good as the other elite PGs, i think that has a lot to do with him not being as quick as some of the other guys so he can't always cause people to rotate


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Acie Law. End of story.


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