# Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jordan"



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Said it on ESPN. More real for me, since I was watching it in HD.

Don't know what to say. The kid is incredible. INCREDIBLE. And only 21. Huge individual talent. Makes teammates better, even as a young gun. More jib than he can fit in his considerable frame.

But he is only 21 and just this year has finally broken into the playoffs.

Still plenty on unknowns, yes?



Reactions?


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

what reactions is there to have. I judge players on their body of work.

Call me in a few years........


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

I saw that, too. Not quite sure what to think - James is a better comparison to Jordan than Wade or Bryant but a lot of what made Jordan Jordan was in MJ's head.

James sure is fun to watch though, and I love it that he's a team-oriented player. He's sure going to be fun to watch.


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## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*



The Krakken said:


> what reactions is there to have. I judge players on their body of work.
> 
> Call me in a few years........



Gotta agree there.
He certainly looks like he has the physical attributes and talent to get there, but it's going to depend on what he accomplishes.
He's off to a good start, but I don't think its enough to even talk about him being close.


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

I still think James is more comparable to Grant Hill with a scorer's mentality. The Magic Johnson comparisons are also more accurate to me.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

I wouldn't disagree, Lebron James can bang it with big men since he is greatly stronger than Jordan ever was, heck, I'd rather have a 6'9" James guarding Shaq than anyone on our team, thats for sure. I won't say he will be, but I could definitely see it.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*

I think I agree with Pip. Bill Simmons had a great line in his column today, something like he wouldn't bat an eye if someone stepped out of a time machine from 2011 and told you that LeBron had averaged 45/15/15 in the NBA Finals that year. LeBron is so young, and he's gotten so much better since he entered the league, that I think it's a pretty safe bet to assume he's going to significantly improve from where he is now, and that's frightening.

What makes the start of LeBron's career especially impressive in relation to Jordan's is that LeBron has pretty much completely lived up to the unprecedented (well, at least not seen since Wilt or Kareem) hype that preceded him. Jordan's first couple of years in the league were under the radar by comparison.


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*

he may well be, when he figures out how to be successful on the other end. big gap right now though.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*



ShamBulls said:


> he may well be, when he figures out how to be successful on the other end. big gap right now though.


IMO Michael Jordan is the most overrated defensive player in the history of the NBA. That doesn't mean LeBron is in his league yet, or ever will be, nor am I saying that Jordan wasn't a very good defender, but I don't think the gap is that big.

Jordan was very Hughes-esque early in his career -- lots of freelancing and losing assignments to go for steals and blocks. It wasn't until Pippen came along -- a guy who could actually lock up opposing scorers -- that Jordan's defense became its most effective from a team standpoint.

All LeBron has to do is become a Magic/Bird type team defender -- someone who makes the fundamentally smart play and funnels the heavy lifting to somebody else. He'll never be the kind of guy to shut people out, but Mike wasn't that kind of guy either.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*

He has the talent, I just wonder if he has the mindset.


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## 7RINGS? (Sep 28, 2004)

age wise I THINK he is way past Jordan."age wise" Jordan was not doing anything LeBron is doing now.So I agree with Pip but Bron has a ways to go.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*



step said:


> He has the talent, I just wonder if he has the mindset.


i don't think it's that difficult to see that he HAS the mindset


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*

Well, now as a tv guy he has to make this kind of statements to generate something. Mission accomplished.


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*



ScottMay said:


> IMO Michael Jordan is the most overrated defensive player in the history of the NBA. That doesn't mean LeBron is in his league yet, or ever will be, nor am I saying that Jordan wasn't a very good defender, but I don't think the gap is that big.
> 
> Jordan was very Hughes-esque early in his career -- lots of freelancing and losing assignments to go for steals and blocks. It wasn't until Pippen came along -- a guy who could actually lock up opposing scorers -- that Jordan's defense became its most effective from a team standpoint.
> 
> All LeBron has to do is become a Magic/Bird type team defender -- someone who makes the fundamentally smart play and funnels the heavy lifting to somebody else. He'll never be the kind of guy to shut people out, but Mike wasn't that kind of guy either.


I agree that he was overrated defensively, though I only have some old stock footage to work from. A few games here and there isn't particularly telling. But it's still streets ahead of LeBron. That boy misses basic stuff sometimes. I hope it doesn't ruin what's on course to be one of the greatest careers of all time.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*

...


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*



ScottMay said:


> IMO Michael Jordan is the most overrated defensive player in the history of the NBA. That doesn't mean LeBron is in his league yet, or ever will be, nor am I saying that Jordan wasn't a very good defender, but I don't think the gap is that big.
> 
> Jordan was very Hughes-esque early in his career -- lots of freelancing and losing assignments to go for steals and blocks. It wasn't until Pippen came along -- a guy who could actually lock up opposing scorers -- that Jordan's defense became its most effective from a team standpoint.
> 
> All LeBron has to do is become a Magic/Bird type team defender -- someone who makes the fundamentally smart play and funnels the heavy lifting to somebody else. He'll never be the kind of guy to shut people out, but Mike wasn't that kind of guy either.


We agree on a lot of things but not on MJ's D.

Jordan is such a better defender than guys in today's game that our viewed as the better defenders like Hinrich and Kobe.

Jordan, at Jackson's recommendation, at time conserved some energy on D. Why? B/c the team needed it more on O.

Jordan, when he put the clamps down, was amazing. 

Also, Jordan was DPOY in 1988 when Pippen still had on his training weeks and averaged 20 mins a game.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*



step said:


> He has the talent, I just wonder if he has the mindset.


That is the question. Jordan was unbelievably consistent. That was not just part of what made him great, but it was the characteristic that made it possible for him to be great. To be one of the best basketball players in the NBA in a given year is one thing. To be one of the best players in the NBA year after year and lead a team to championships is another. 

Very few players manage to stay on top of the game once they get there. After Lebron has won an MVP, signed a 7 figure contract and has all the endorsements he could want will he still be able to bring the same competitiveness to the game that he does now? 

Even if he brings the kind of competitiveness that Jordan brought and Iverson and Bryant bring to every game, he'll have to find a way to make Cleveland a lot better than they are now if he is to win a few championships. Otherwise, the valid comparison for him will be Oscar Robertson, not MJ.

Cleveland is a team that is not going to get much better in the future. Ilgauskas and Marshall are starting the downside of their careers. They may not be able to keep Gooden. So I think they are probably already near their peak as a team. They may improve a bit over the next two years, but its going to be very tough to go to the next level. It takes a lot of luck to get better with low draft choices and MLE FAs.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

pip also said bulls in 6 :curse:


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*



McBulls said:


> Otherwise, the valid comparison for him will be Oscar Robertson, not MJ.


Just what I was going to say. 

What makes Jordan Jordan is the titles. People reference his understanding of the game, will to win, defense and so on. Then they use the titles as evidence of him being so advanced in those aspects. Jordan has a lot of fans believing that he simply wouldn't let a team led by him lose a playoff series. It just wouldn't happen. 

The stats and awards just add to the legacy, but there have been atleast a few players with a serious case for being better than Jordan, but Jordan has the legacy that is rooted in the rings. Not many players have the combination. It's the same legacy and sparkle that has Bird and Magic in a lot of people's top five over players like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Shaquille O'Neal. 

Let's face it. Most people make their top 5 of all-time lists based on legacy and sparkle, which is aided by rings and heroics. There is no way Magic or Bird are better players than dominant big men like Kareem and Shaq. 

Infact, on Around the Horn, Woody said that LeBron is already the best player in the league already easily. Then the other three completely laughed off the idea, holding up three fingers as if to say that Kobe Bryant's three titles (where he wasn't even the best player on the team for 2 of them) was the difference. Just an example of what I'm talking about.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*

It's premature to say that LeBron will be a greater player than Michael or even that he is the best player in the league. LeBron has a lot of work to do on his game and he will continue to mature with experience.

Directly comparing LeBron to MJ is difficult since, as someone else said, LeBron resembles a stronger, more agressive (but less sophisticated?) Grant Hill. Kobe is the closest to MJ in this department.

James does look like he will be the greatest player of his generation just as MJ was the greatest of his era, but he still has to prove it over the years (*cough*Vince Carter*cough*).

He's doing great so far, but let tv guys (which is what Scottie is when he's up there on Sportscenter) be tv guys, and let LeBron show us what he can do and how he is going to continue to develop as a player.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*

I think alot of people will say its blasphemy to say anyone will be better than Jordan. Jordan is my alltime favorite athlete, so i get a bit of a cringe whenever it comes up. But despite what many people say, the game of basketball keeps evolving and the best player of the next generation will certainly be better then the best player of the previous generation. For instance, Bill Russell was the best player of his generation, today he would be a 6-9 PF, not Center, and might not be better then Ben Wallace. Wilt was great, but thats because he had a 4 inch height advantage on everyone. What would he do against a guy like David Robinson, or Shaq? Then Jordan. Along with Magic and Bird, redefined the era of basketball as a big mans game and brought along versatililty and a perimeter focus to the game. But they also played in a time where not a lot of defense was played and they wouldnt have to body up against the Scottie Pippens (for long stretches of their careers) or a Lebron James (6-8 250), Ron Artest etc. What would anyone do against a guy like Dirk Notwitzki 15 years ago? People say the game is weaker now then in the past. Thats just like a grumpy old man talking about the good ole days. Its BS. The game was prettier then, but its far more competitive today then it was then. Defense is actually played today, thats why the scores are low. There is far more advanced scouting today then in the old days, and with NBA Season Pass, everyone sees everyone all the time. There is a foreign influence today that wasnt here 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. So whoever thrives in this new era of basketball will probably be the greatest of alltime. I suspect thats Lebron James and maybe Oden down the road. Thats fine, its evolution. Sad that Jordan will not be the "greatest" of alltime til the day I die, but as someone who considers himself a progressive person, I look forward to watching whoever takes that mantle.


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## BullsAttitude (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*



rlucas4257 said:


> I think alot of people will say its blasphemy to say anyone will be better than Jordan. Jordan is my alltime favorite athlete, so i get a bit of a cringe whenever it comes up. But despite what many people say, the game of basketball keeps evolving and the best player of the next generation will certainly be better then the best player of the previous generation. For instance, Bill Russell was the best player of his generation, today he would be a 6-9 PF, not Center, and might not be better then Ben Wallace. Wilt was great, but thats because he had a 4 inch height advantage on everyone. What would he do against a guy like David Robinson, or Shaq? Then Jordan. Along with Magic and Bird, redefined the era of basketball as a big mans game and brought along versatililty and a perimeter focus to the game. But they also played in a time where not a lot of defense was played and they wouldnt have to body up against the Scottie Pippens (for long stretches of their careers) or a Lebron James (6-8 250), Ron Artest etc. What would anyone do against a guy like Dirk Notwitzki 15 years ago? People say the game is weaker now then in the past. Thats just like a grumpy old man talking about the good ole days. Its BS. The game was prettier then, but its far more competitive today then it was then. Defense is actually played today, thats why the scores are low. There is far more advanced scouting today then in the old days, and with NBA Season Pass, everyone sees everyone all the time. There is a foreign influence today that wasnt here 10 years ago, or 20 years ago. So whoever thrives in this new era of basketball will probably be the greatest of alltime. I suspect thats Lebron James and maybe Oden down the road. Thats fine, its evolution. Sad that Jordan will not be the "greatest" of alltime til the day I die, but as someone who considers himself a progressive person, I look forward to watching whoever takes that mantle.



I agree with you on the progression of the game but don't forget about training has progressed also. What would a Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, or an Oscar Robertson do with today's training facilities and techniques? How much better would that make them? Remember, MJ didn't start lifting weights until after he took beatings from the Pistons. How much better would he have been had he started earlier? 

Lebron has come around in a time where weight training, plyometrics, and top notch facilities are there for him to utilize. It was always believed that weight training would hurt your game, look back at some of the 80's games and tell me how many well defined or big players do you see? No where near what you see today. Weight training coaches are pretty much used by all teams now and most players have their own trainers. Tim Grover has made a living of this ever since he met up with MJ.

As for the defense being better and the scores being lower, here is the scores from the Bulls and Heat series in 1996 and the scores from the series this year.


1996

Game 1 Chicago 102 Miami 85
Game 2 Chicago 106 Miami 76
Game 3 Chicago 112 Miami 91


2006

Game 1 Miami 111 Chicago 106
Game 2 Miami 115 Chicago 108
Game 3 Miami 90 Chicago 109
Game 4 Miami 87 Chicago 93
Game 5 Miami 92 Chicago 78
Game 6 Miami 113 Chicago 96

I'm not going to even bring up the 97' playoff series against Miami which had the lowest combined scoring game in the playoffs. The rules are different now to where they benefit a Lebron, Gilbert, AI, or a Kobe Bryant. You can't touch them above the foul line or it's a foul. 

Better defense? When Lebron can catch the ball close the corner and go along the baseline past 3 players and score the winning layup in 4 seconds and not be touched, that is not better defense. That was against the Washington Wizards which finished with the 5th seed in the EAST. That's why Lebron had the series he had, I want to see how he does against the Pistons now.

Yes, at 21, Lebron is beyond where Michael was at this age. But at 21, Michael had a National Championship cause of a shot he hit at the age of 19! Michael continued to do it when he got into the league. He carried a 6th seeded Bulls to the Eastern Conference Finals in 1989, where they lost to the Pistons 4 - 2. The Pistons swept the Lakers 4 - 0 in the Finals. 

Lebron has a decent team around him in his 3rd year, anybody here what to name players Michael had on his team during the 86-87 season, his 3rd in the league. Here's two of them, John Paxson and Charles Oakley, you all name the rest.

A comment was also made earlier about the Cavs having a team that will proably peak in a year or two. So, I want to see how Lebron is going to be able to continue to keep the Cavs at the top without high draft picks or a lot of money to spend on free agents. I think we'll all have to wait and see.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I think Lebron James had a great series against one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA. That being Said i think that Lebron James is the Worst Defensive Superstar in the League, I just never seen a man his size be so afraid to take a charge or play dominating Defense, there where countless times where Caron Butler would just straight up shoot a jump shot in his face. 

Overall If Lebron James has a monster series against the Pistons then I will buy that he has a shot at being just as great as Jordan, but dominating a horrible defensive team in one of the worst defensive played series in along time is not very impresive IMO. 

That being said give some damn love to Gilber Arenas lol who HAD A MONSTER SERIES as well.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*



thebizkit69u said:


> I think Lebron James had a great series against one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA. That being Said i think that Lebron James is the Worst Defensive Superstar in the League, I just never seen a man his size be so afraid to take a charge or play dominating Defense, there where countless times where Caron Butler would just straight up shoot a jump shot in his face.
> 
> Overall If Lebron James has a monster series against the Pistons then I will buy that he has a shot at being just as great as Jordan, but dominating a horrible defensive team in one of the worst defensive played series in along time is not very impresive IMO..


Good post. 

However, despite my love for MJ, LeBron may very will be the greatest 21 yr old ballplayer of all time. It will be very interesting to see where he ends up.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*



johnston797 said:


> Good post.
> 
> However, despite my love for MJ, LeBron may very will be the greatest 21 yr old ballplayer of all time. It will be very interesting to see where he ends up.


Iam not taking anything away from LJ, hes great no doubt about it. But iam not going to buy into the Kool AIde that some of these sports guys are drinking and serving. James is no doubt a great Basketball player but we can say hes the greatest 21 year old player of all time without looking for the greatest 18 year old player of all time, or the greatest 10 year old basketball player of all time. The point is that Lebron James at 21 has the body of beast. If Lebron came into the league as a skinny player who just dominated the league right away like Jordan did then I would be extreamly impressed, but at time where everything little bit of contact is a foul and defenses are just horrible Iam not sold on James being the greatest, IMO he has not earned anything yet, I hope the Refs let the Pistons beat up on James the way they did to Jordan, but we all know thats not going to happen.

And I will kill any broadcaster who is going to try to compare Jordans Playoffs to Lebrons, PLEASE DONT COMPARE the Wizards to what Jordan had to face 4 times in a row, Birds Celtics and Thomas Pistons BACK TO BACK.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*



johnston797 said:


> We agree on a lot of things but not on MJ's D.
> 
> Jordan is such a better defender than guys in today's game that our viewed as the better defenders like Hinrich and Kobe.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree that he was a better defender than Hinrich or Kobe. I tried to take pains to say I thought he was an excellent defensive player -- of all the all-time offensive greats at positions other than center, he's definitely the best defender (although Stockton was right up there, too). I just don't think he was anywhere near the individual defensive player his legend has made him out to be.

Jordan's DPOY year was a lot like Hughes's much-heralded final year with the Wiz, or Iverson's defensive impact his first couple years in the league. They were very disruptive to an offense because no passing lane was safe. And Jordan had a bunch of spectacular weak-side blocks to aid his cause back when he was a leaping machine. But they weren't lock-down on-the-ball defenders, and in fact a lot of times their gambling hurt a team. 

Pippen helped Jordan conserve energy on defense AND offense; it's true. But for me, the telling thing is when you look at the playoffs and the turning points that occurred when Jackson used Pippen to shut down a guy who'd been having his way with MJ -- specifically Magic and Drexler. Jordan just couldn't handle guys like that.

IMO, guys like Gary Payton, Sid Moncrief, and Ron Artest were much, much better man defenders than Jordan was. All I was trying to say is that the bar for LeBron's defense in relation to Jordan ought to be much lower than "greatest defender ever."


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*



thebizkit69u said:


> Iam not taking anything away from LJ, hes great no doubt about it. But iam not going to buy into the Kool AIde that some of these sports guys are drinking and serving. James is no doubt a great Basketball player but we can say hes the greatest 21 year old player of all time without looking for the greatest 18 year old player of all time, or the greatest 10 year old basketball player of all time. The point is that Lebron James at 21 has the body of beast. If Lebron came into the league as a skinny player who just dominated the league right away like Jordan did then I would be extreamly impressed, but at time where everything little bit of contact is a foul and defenses are just horrible Iam not sold on James being the greatest, IMO he has not earned anything yet, I hope the Refs let the Pistons beat up on James the way they did to Jordan, but we all know thats not going to happen.
> 
> And I will kill any broadcaster who is going to try to compare Jordans Playoffs to Lebrons, PLEASE DONT COMPARE the Wizards to what Jordan had to face 4 times in a row, Birds Celtics and Thomas Pistons BACK TO BACK.


I don't know why we have to penalize LeBron for his build. It's exactly why I'm so high on him -- he's basically a point guard with the same body/leaping ability/strength as a young, healthy Antonio McDyess. That's ridiculous.

Comparing players at ages has a pretty good predictive track record in basketball and baseball. When LeBron is putting up numbers at 21 that compare extremely favorably to what Jordan was doing at his statistical best in 1986-1990, and when those aren't even adjusted for pace . . . sorry, I think it's not out of line to have the discussion. (And you must not have watched a lot of Jordan if you're going to seriously say that he wasn't on the good side of a few thousand ticky-tack calls.)

Championships will definitely be the ultimate measuring stick, though, no doubt about it. LeBron has eight years to go before he'll be the same age Jordan was when he won his first.


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## mgolding (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*

I think Lebron will do the work throughout his career and become individually the most unstoppable player to ever play the game. He has lived up to the highest expectations someone his age has ever had in this game. Jordan was just finishing up at NC at this point. Whether he has the success Jordan had in his career will depend on Cleveland management and injuries. I fear that if the cavs GMs over the years do a god job the bulls could be on the outside looking in on the finals year after year. Imagine a prime Pippen with Lebron right now. Pretty damn scarry. Would they win it all?


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## Philomath (Jan 3, 2003)

It's apples and oranges in so many ways. As an NBA player, Jordan wasn't even born yet at this age. LeBron is obviously way ahead of Jordan because he's been in the NBA, while Jordan played college ball, a game so different as to be impossible to compare. LeBron is much more physically mature than MJ was, too... his body at 21 is simply amazing. I can't remember such an NBA-ready body at such a young age (Amare maybe). The guns on the guy! But, it's also possible LeBron is closer to his considerable ceiling already than Jordan was coming out fresh from school. We'll just have to wait and see. Also, Michael was such a gifted scorer - there was such a buzz around him, what would he do next? That's not really LeBron's game. He does things that we have seen before, just not so many things coming from the same person, never with someone with such size (except maybe Magic and/or Oscar) and never at such a young age. Different. And then there was Jordan's second act, where he became a great defender, a phenomenal shooter, a master at the nuances of the game, with the killer intensity... Who knows what LeBron's second and third and fourth acts will look like.

LeBron is beastly. I don't feel any compunction really to compare him to Jordan when I watch him play (as opposed to Kobe, who begs for it so unabashedly, scores similarly and suffers by the comparison.) He's LeBron, he's young, he's unbelievable and he needs to stop chewing his cuticles.

As for rings - rings are a significant factor in comparing players, but for me they're not an end all-be all. Rasheed Wallace isn't better than Karl Malone or Charles Barkley because he got a ring. Kevin Garnett is better than anybody on the Pistons imho, and he very well may never get a ring. A lot of stuff has to come together to win it all. Rings only mean something, uh, when they mean something. They are more than a tiebreaker, but there are a lot of things to consider. Just because the Pistons took Darko and cost Wade some rings by the mistake doesn't harm Wade's resume, for example - in fact, I consider Wade to be better now than I probably would have if he went to Detroit... you can see how much he's added to the Heat, while the Piston were champions without him. LeBron will probably get his rings anyway, and the issue will be moot for him.


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## HugeMinitz (Nov 25, 2004)

Two things: First, I'm suspect of a claim like that being made during a playoff series with the Washington Wizards. I mean, he is a great player no question, but after this series with Detroit I think the "experts" will all be a bit closer to Earth in terms of their predictions for James' legacy. Second, it's all a matter of championships. Only time will tell.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*



ScottMay said:


> Comparing players at ages has a pretty good predictive track record in basketball and baseball. When LeBron is putting up numbers at 21 that compare extremely favorably to what Jordan was doing at his statistical best in 1986-1990, and when those aren't even adjusted for pace . . . sorry, I think it's not out of line to have the discussion. (And you must not have watched a lot of Jordan if you're going to seriously say that he wasn't on the good side of a few thousand ticky-tack calls.)


No doubt Jordan got those ticky tack fouls, but Jordan did not get those calls for his first 3-4 years on a consistant basis. Heck i would like to think that Jordan dint get those calls untill around 91-92. THe defenses that The Celtics and Pistons played on him where brutal and even in those Knicks series OMG These Where battles, these where DEFENSES. None of this crap we see today between The WIzards and Cavs and Lakers and Suns.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*



ScottMay said:


> Jordan's DPOY year was a lot like Hughes's much-heralded final year with the Wiz, or Iverson's defensive impact his first couple years in the league. They were very disruptive to an offense because no passing lane was safe. And Jordan had a bunch of spectacular weak-side blocks to aid his cause back when he was a leaping machine. But they weren't lock-down on-the-ball defenders, and in fact a lot of times their gambling hurt a team.


Bulls were an excellent defensive team. And MJ gambled within the scheme. He was so much smarter than Hughes. So we differ here.




ScottMay said:


> But for me, the telling thing is when you look at the playoffs and the turning points that occurred when Jackson used Pippen to shut down a guy who'd been having his way with MJ -- specifically Magic and Drexler. Jordan just couldn't handle guys like that.


We differ here too. IMHO - MJ was equal to Pippen as a defender. Jackson just asked Pippen to spend more of his energy to disrupt Magic. Which he could do because we scoring responsiblities were much less.




ScottMay said:


> IMO, guys like Gary Payton, Sid Moncrief, and Ron Artest were much, much better man defenders than Jordan was. All I was trying to say is that the bar for LeBron's defense in relation to Jordan ought to be much lower than "greatest defender ever."


I don't know. MJ could handle bigger guys than Payton. MJ could handle smaller guys than Artest. (I don't remember enough about Moncrief - I mostly saw him guard MJ where he was effective but not awesome which puts him way ahead of the pack). 



ScottMay said:


> All I was trying to say is that the bar for LeBron's defense in relation to Jordan ought to be much lower than "greatest defender ever."


I guess I now understand what you are saying. And I agree with your earlier point- MJ is easily the best perimeter defender of the greats. But LeBron doesn't need to be the "greatest defender ever". He just needs 8 or so first team All-NBA defense selections. And being in the running for DPO. He needs a lot of work in this area.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Philomath said:


> As for rings - rings are a significant factor in comparing players, but for me they're not an end all-be all. Rasheed Wallace isn't better than Karl Malone or Charles Barkley because he got a ring. Kevin Garnett is better than anybody on the Pistons imho, and he very well may never get a ring. A lot of stuff has to come together to win it all. Rings only mean something, uh, when they mean something. They are more than a tiebreaker, but there are a lot of things to consider. Just because the Pistons took Darko and cost Wade some rings by the mistake doesn't harm Wade's resume, for example - in fact, I consider Wade to be better now than I probably would have if he went to Detroit... you can see how much he's added to the Heat, while the Piston were champions without him. LeBron will probably get his rings anyway, and the issue will be moot for him.



Basketball is a team sport. Unlike baseball, statistics don't capture many important aspects of a players performance. So, when considering whether a player is, or was, comparable to the best ever to play the game, it's natural to expect that at least some of the teams he played on were successful.

No doubt a player can be remembered as being very good without winning a championship. But he will never be considered one of the best without winning championships.

Carl Malone will be remembered as a great power forward. A statistical case could be made that he was the greatest power forward of all time. But in most people's minds, other forwards who won championship rings (too many to bother naming here) will be remembered as better players because they succeeded at the game's most competitive level.

So, until Cleveland has a few trophies to show for Lebron's efforts, he will not be mentioned in the same breath as other NBA all-time greats.


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## ChiStoffs (May 1, 2006)

Huh??? This sounds like another ESPN attempt at forcing James as the next Jordan. One of the key features of Jordan being the greatest ever is is unwillingness to lose. THat killer instinct and passion for doing whatever it takes to win. 

First of all, James game is 180 different than Jordan. He shoots like a power forward and although athletic, doesn't possess the same type of althleticism as a Jordan or Bryant. James is much more or a bruising player than a finesse, power player. James said himself that he doesn't have a killer instinct like Kobe. Hands down Kobe is the best player in the game and the player with the best chance of being better than Jordan. As of now, James is just another stat filler like Garnett/McGrady and hasn't proved anything. Kobe is a 3 time champ and took a team of scrubs to game 7 against one of the best teams in the league. The media just simply hates Kobe and will never give him credit for anything. James is a very good player but more like the next Magic or something like that. Great player but not the next Jordan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*



johnston797 said:


> 8 or so first team All-NBA defense selections. And being in the running for DPO.


This is what I was getting at with the overrated stuff. MJ simply wasn't one of the two best defensive guards in the league for most of those 8 years. 



> He needs a lot of work in this area.


No one's saying he doesn't. By the same token, you have to allow for the possibility that LeBron will be a significantly better offensive player than Jordan. At 21 he's put up a season that compares extremely favorably to Jordan's best seasons.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*



ScottMay said:


> MJ simply wasn't one of the two best defensive guards in the league for most of those 8 years.


I don't know. When Jordan won his DPOY, he was still being bashed as a selfish ballplayer that couldn't win. So why would the knowledgable league watchers give him this honor when they were happy to label him so. Not b/c it sold more shoes. He had the defensive goods IMHO. 




ScottMay said:


> No one's saying he doesn't. By the same token, you have to allow for the possibility that LeBron will be a significantly better offensive player than Jordan. At 21 he's put up a season that compares extremely favorably to Jordan's best seasons.


Actually, by PER, according to basketball-reference.com, LeBron has put up a season at 21 that's very comparable to Jordan at 22. MJ's best statisical years still a notch above

It's not impossible, but LeBron has a steep hill to climb still and would definetely have to be hands down considered the greatest offensive player ever. I do agree that it's not impossible.


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## KenFromNewYork (May 5, 2006)

*Re: Scottie Pippen calls: "Lebron James WILL BE, in my eyes, better than Michael Jord*

It's way, way too early to even begin making such comparisons. Guys like Jerry Stackhouse and Vince Carter came into the league with "the next Michael Jordan" stigmas, and if anything, it decreased their value because they couldn't live up to this massive media hype that was piled upon them. I know Lebron is a much better player than either, but for the time being, I just don't think it's a particularly fair -- or valid -- comparison. Like a few others (McBull, Patchwork, etc) have said, I think Oscar Robertson is a much more fitting comparison at the time. If he really starts to win, I think comparison to Magic would be more natural than MJ.

Someone said earlier that half of what made MJ great was in his head. I couldn't agree more. Take away Jordan's legendary, violent, unwavering competitive edge, and you're left with a mere mortal. Jordan just absolutely refused to lose. I love the story in _The Jordan Rules_ about Michael Jordan being so upset about losing a ping-pong game to a Bulls trainer that he secretly set up a table at his house, practiced for hours on end, and then came back and beat him. Classic Jordan.

Defensively, there's just no comparison right now.

Even during Jordan's tragic run with the Wizards, he was still one of the best defenders in the Eastern Conference. I'll never forget that classic block where he just pulled the ball out of mid air with two hands.

If anyone is going to be compared to Jordan in the NBA right now, it's got to be Kobe Bryant. I wouldn't have said so before the playoffs, but Kobe's performance against the Suns (minus Game 7) was as close to Jordan-esque as I've seen since MJ retired. Credit Phil for getting Kobe to play team basketball within the confines of the triangle. He's got a similar competitive edge, comparable physical ability, and a great defensive mind. I don't know how many times during the series I'd see someone come in for a layup and just say to myself, "Kobe's gonna block this," only to have Bryant come soaring in from the corner to knock it into the stands. He usually got called for the foul, but I guess that's beside the point.

Back to Lebron though, as someone else mentioned above, it's impossible to predict where this guy's going to be a couple of years from now. Alot of reporters say that he's already developing a superstar complex. I guess it's to be expected, but the league was a whole lot less glamorous when MJ broke in. Around the same time that Jordan was being denied a position on his high school basketball team, Lebron James was being given a Hummer by his Mom and having his games shown on PPV. He entered the league with massive hype and didn't disappoint. His next contract is going to be huge, his star is only going to grow, and if he's like any other average person thrown into that situation, he's got the potential to become carried away.

I just have this gut feeling that Lebron is going to burn out and lose the passion to play sooner than later. I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't get the impression that Lebron James truly loves the game of basketball to the same extent guys like Magic and Michael did. He's a young kid, and basketball made him grow up a whole lot quicker. I wouldn't be shocked if ten years from now, he decided he wanted to try his hand at something else.


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