# InDepth Post Game Report



## seaBlzr (Oct 21, 2006)

First time poster, been lurking a little. Just wanted to drop by and post some game thoughts on the Sea-Por game. I sat near the Blazer bench and got a great view of the action. Didn't look at the box score, but here's how I saw the game.

Zach Randolph-
He owned Wilcox and Collison tonight, probably does everytime they play. But he had the smooth baseline stroke going early and played down in the box most of the game. Looked really good passing out of the double teams. He had a couple of nice passes which led to points in the paint. Was the most vocal on the bench during the game, yelling and encouraging the guys. He was really into it, great game for Zach. He was also active on defense and on the boards.

Brandon Roy-
He started out a little cold, missed a few shots and got a charge. But he took over the second half driving to the hoop and finishing at the basket. Didn't get the outside shot going, but kept slashing to the hoop to draw fouls and go to the free throw line. Played backup point for Nate and seemed pretty comfortable. Near the end of the 3rd quarter when the Sonics came back, the Blazers kept giving him the ball and he made plays. Couple of nice drives and a great pass to Outlaw to finish the period. Zach and Roy should have the ball when the Blazers need a score, I'd like to see more pick and rolls from these two. Allen actually started to play really hard on defense cause he was getting abused by Roy. His spin and finish in the 3rd was just sick, people were wooing and awwing. He just needs to control his drives to avoid the offensive fouls and control turnovers. He is the real deal, big time sleeper for fantasy basketball.

Ime Udoka-
Great game from Udoka. Solid all around, great perimeter shooting and hustled on defense. Did not expect this from him. He started the game in place of Outlaw and he fit right in. Made the right decisions on offense, whether driving to the hoop or swinging the ball around. He definitely will be on the roster. Biggest surprise to me was his ball handling ability, he actually reminds me of Jim Jackson when he had mobility and could shoot.

Jarrett Jack-
Average game for Jack. He ran the offense well except for the 3rd quarter when the Sonics started to really pressure the offense. Luke kept beating him off the dribble and fast breaking in the 3rd, I think thats why Nate took him out and put Dixon in. Wasn't much of a factor in the second half because Roy had the ball in his hands most of the time.

Przybilla-
Rebounded well and solid D. One dunk, what else do you expect?

Magloire-
Bad game for him in the second half. Played well in the 1st half, got some inside buckets and free throws. Self-destructed in the second half. In a series of possesions, 2 traveling calls and an offensive foul. Nate got really fustrated after the second travel call, jumped in the air and sat hard on the bench, said something like, "why can't he....(didn't catch it)!." Went to Przybilla immediatedly after the offensive foul. Coach Lucas quickly came up to Magloire during the timeout, I think he was trying to encourage him.

Dixon-
Great game for Dixon shooting wise. His shot was falling tonight and played good D on Ridnour when called upon. I noticed that he cuts to the hoop the most when Randolph has it in the post, but he never gets the ball cause he's such a small target.

Outlaw-
Made some timely shots and plays when the Blazers needed it. Had a sweet dunk on one of the Seattle stiff centers and another great steal and finish. Did not seem comfortable with the dribble, had a bad turnover when he tried to drive, got caught in the air and threw the ball away. 

Sergio-
Played briefly in the 1st half. One bad turnover when he got caught in the air. One great pass to Przybilla, but he of course traveled while driving to the hoop for an easy dunk. Seems like Nate didn't have confidence in his backup point guards. Dickau didn't play and Sergio didn't play in the 2nd half. Roy played backup point for Nate.

Overall Thoughts-
Only reason the Sonics came back in the 3rd were because of bad Blazer turnovers. This will be an issue all season, the offense bogs down under physical defense and coughs up the ball too much. When the outside shots were falling, the offense was smooth. There was a lot of ball movement and good spacing on the floor especially with Udoka. The Blazers need to work on their zone defense quite a bit. Players were out of position and Sonics got open shots. It was a good win, you could tell Nate really wanted this game. All the Blazers played extremely hard, there were lots of dives to the floor. Here's to a great season, hope you enjoyed this report.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

Thank you very much. :clap:


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## mgb (Jun 26, 2004)

Welcome to the list! Great first post!


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## gambitnut (Jan 4, 2003)

mgb said:


> Welcome to the list! Great first post!


I second that emotion.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Has Zach possibly turned a new leaf?


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

Thank You! :greatjob:

I duly nominate you as Board Scribe. :clown:


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## Blazer Freak (Jul 11, 2004)

zagsfan20 said:


> Has Zach possibly turned a new leaf?


I don't get why you guys have been harping on him so much. Not necessarily you Zagsfan, but the overall fan base. After that first game you guys were calling for his head, but Zach has calmed down and has shown plenty of improvement even from last year passing out of the double team, and his willingness to be down low, atleast in these last 3 games.


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

Yep Zbo is playing about as well as I have seen him play right now, which is a good sign. I can hardly wait until they throw him and Aldridge on the floor at the same time...2 big guys who can score, handle the ball, shoot all the way out to the 3 point line..defenses will never know where the shot is coming from, or who is going to weasel their way in for the follow up tip.


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## southnc (Dec 15, 2005)

Dixon looks like he could be the team's crucial 6th man - nice game! :clap:


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

Good posts seaBlr... and welcome aboard our little community




I have only gotten to listen to about 1 qtr of any games this year. I can nto wait to see them play. I like a hustling diving team that gives a good effort. If they keep this up I will be pleased. Effort goes along ways in sports. Even if we are not the most talented.

Ime is making a name for himself... good for him.

Lets give Dixon enough good playing time to trade him.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

southnc said:


> Dixon looks like he could be the team's crucial 6th man - nice game! :clap:




BS, Juan on one looked like the streakey *** shooting lame defender he is. The scout in SI said it perfectly, Dixon would be the 3rd shooting guard on most teams.


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

southnc said:


> Dixon looks like he could be the team's crucial 6th man - nice game! :clap:



Completely disagree. This is a typical Dixon performance after several bad games, which is why hits shooting percentage is always in the low forties. He usually goes 2 games in a row of being Juan Brixon, hitting basically nothing and taking every shot he can get, and then has one good game and gets kudos from fans like you, and somehow gets more playing time out of it. I would much rather have a guy who consistently scored in the low teens every night, then a guy who scores in the high teens/low twenties one out of every 3 nights and then dissappears for 2 or more games in a row.


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## wastro (Dec 19, 2004)

Thanks for this recap!


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## SheedSoNasty (Dec 31, 2002)

Thanks for the recap!

Now, what if... big IF... Aldridge comes in and plays center the way that Rasheed Wallace did? If LaMarcus can hit shots from around 15 feet and become a legit low post threat, think of the numbers that Zach could put up again...

My hope is that LA becomes at least as good as Rasheed Wallace.


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## wastro (Dec 19, 2004)

SheedSoNasty said:


> Now, what if... big IF... Aldridge comes in and plays center the way that Rasheed Wallace did? If LaMarcus can hit shots from around 15 feet and become a legit low post threat, think of the numbers that Zach could put up again...
> 
> My hope is that LA becomes at least as good as Rasheed Wallace.


If that happened, this team would have so many more weapons - especially since Aldridge can run the floor very well.

I definitely think it's possible; otherwise, Portland probably wouldn't have given up Viktor to get him at #2.


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## yakbladder (Sep 13, 2003)

seaBlzr said:


> First time poster, been lurking a little. Just wanted to drop by and post some game thoughts on the Sea-Por game.


Welcome aboard! Awesome first post with some great insights into the game. If everyone here were as intelligent and detailed in their observations I'm positive we'd never have heated discussions.... *snicker*...Seriously though, great job!


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## 2k (Dec 30, 2005)

seaBlzr said:


> Played briefly in the 1st half. One bad turnover when he got caught in the air. One great pass to Przybilla, but he of course traveled while driving to the hoop for an easy dunk. Seems like Nate didn't have confidence in his backup point guards. Dickau didn't play and Sergio didn't play in the 2nd half. Roy played backup point for Nate.


That’s the rotation I want to see. Give Roy most of the backup PG. Give Dixon 15 minns to see if he is hitting and how he sticks a PG on D. Keep Dickau on the bench and sneak Rodriguez in there when the other coach isn’t looking.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Great recap seaBlzr... welcome onboard! Did you happen to see another Blazer fan seated courtside?

_"Seattle pulled within six points early in the fourth quarter, but Randolph, Roy and Udoka combined for 12 straight points as Portland pulled away, delighting Blazers' owner *Paul Allen* who sat courtside."_

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=261020025



SheedSoNasty said:


> Now, what if... big IF... Aldridge comes in and plays center the way that Rasheed Wallace did? If LaMarcus can hit shots from around 15 feet and become a legit low post threat, think of the numbers that Zach could put up again...
> 
> My hope is that LA becomes at least as good as Rasheed Wallace.


I think thats the sort of player he projects to play like, but only expect we'll see flashes of it this season. Next season (with a year under his belt and hopefully a healthy offseason and full camp too) is when I think he'll claim at least a rotation level role of 25+ MPG. I would be extremely pleased if LA eventually turned out to as good, let alone better, then Wallace but I do share your excitement on how his game projects along side Zach's. 

STOMP


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## fiElDy (Oct 24, 2005)

SheedSoNasty said:


> My hope is that LA becomes at least as good as Rasheed Wallace.


Not going to happen


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## wastro (Dec 19, 2004)

fiElDy said:


> Not going to happen


Care to elaborate?


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## seaBlzr (Oct 21, 2006)

STOMP said:


> Great recap seaBlzr... welcome onboard! Did you happen to see another Blazer fan seated courtside?
> 
> _"Seattle pulled within six points early in the fourth quarter, but Randolph, Roy and Udoka combined for 12 straight points as Portland pulled away, delighting Blazers' owner *Paul Allen* who sat courtside."_
> 
> ...


Yes actually Paul Allen was sitting courtside two rows in front of me. I didnt pay attention to him most of the game, Sue Bird was sitting closer to me, and oh yea I was watching the game too.

I was looking at the box score and noticed the poor defensive rebounding effort. Sonics were shooting a lot of perimeter shots and the ball was bouncing everywhere. The Blazers did not try to run at all after a missed shot. It be nice to see the Blazers push the ball a little, but I think this had more to do with the lineup and who they were playing.

Defensive rebounding will need to be addressed. It sucks when the Blazers play great defense then give up the offensive board. Magloire needs to get his head straight, Swift looked better than him.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

seaBlzr said:


> Magloire needs to get his head straight, Swift looked better than him.


IMO Swift is better then Magloire. He's both taller/longer and more athletic. He sort of looks like Freddy Kruger but I think he's got a decent future ahead of him. 

Signing Joel to a MLE this offseason set up Portland with a servicable starting 5 at a below market rate. JMag will provide depth, but I'm hopeful that management is able to extract something of value for the future out of his expiring 8.3M contract. If not, he'll likely still be on his way next offseason.

STOMP


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## SheedSoNasty (Dec 31, 2002)

fiElDy said:


> Not going to happen


With all that we've seen of LaMarcus Aldridge, I can't see why anyone would be so definite like this. Please explain.


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## blakeback (Jun 29, 2006)

seaBlzr said:


> Yes actually Paul Allen was sitting courtside two rows in front of me. I didnt pay attention to him most of the game, Sue Bird was sitting closer to me...


yeah, she's super cute 

nice game recap


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## Samuel (Jan 1, 2003)

SheedSoNasty said:


> With all that we've seen of LaMarcus Aldridge, I can't see why anyone would be so definite like this. Please explain.


It's hard to project how good LaMarcus will be at this point, but it's a safe bet that he won't be as good as Wallace. He's one of the best defensive big men of all time, IMO. We'd be lucky if Aldridge was in his category.


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## hammer (Oct 29, 2005)

Samuel said:


> It's hard to project how good LaMarcus will be at this point, but it's a safe bet that he won't be as good as Wallace. He's one of the best defensive big men of all time, IMO. We'd be lucky if Aldridge was in his category.


He's talking about Rasheed Wallace.

Ben Wallace _is_ one of the greatest defenders of all time, but that really has nothing to do with this thread.


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## hammer (Oct 29, 2005)

STOMP said:


> IMO Swift is better then Magloire. He's both taller/longer and more athletic. He sort of looks like Freddy Kruger but I think he's got a decent future ahead of him.


No. That's terrible. Swift is a big stiff with zero lateral quickness and next to no bruising capabilities. He'll never be able to take over games on the boards, unlike Magloire. Jamal is one of a handful of guys in this league capable of bruising you to death down low.

You're not really seeing the real Magloire right now, for whatever reason, but he will show up at some point. I've seen far too many of his games to think otherwise. 

You're gonna have to think long term. If your opinions change every time the wind blows, you're a complete dope, and there are no exceptions. This doesn't necessarily apply to you, but stop yourself before you say things like "Swift is better than Magloire" just based on these preseason games or whatever. It's terribly sad. I would hope that Blazers fans aren't buying that....


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## Samuel (Jan 1, 2003)

hammer said:


> He's talking about Rasheed Wallace.
> 
> Ben Wallace _is_ one of the greatest defenders of all time, but that really has nothing to do with this thread.


I wasn't talking about Ben.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

I think you underrate Swift. He is only 20 years old, and posesses very decieving athlecism. He is probably one of the more athletic centers in this league.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

hammer said:


> You're gonna have to think long term. If your opinions change every time the wind blows, you're a complete dope, and there are no exceptions. This doesn't necessarily apply to you, but stop yourself before you say things like "Swift is better than Magloire" just based on these preseason games or whatever. It's terribly sad. I would hope that Blazers fans aren't buying that....


Wow... congrats on the most insulting post of the day! Great to have you join our discussion.

Did I indicate that my opinion on Swift and Magloire was in any way based on last night's preseason game, preseason in general, or did you rely on _special_ reading abilities to come to that conclusion? Your reading comprehension skilz shone again in clarifying Samuel's post. He was referring to Rasheed as one of the elite big defenders who Aldridge would be unlikely to be as good as. For obvious reasons LA has been compared to former Blazer Wallace for a few years now... only you were confused. 

I can guess where you pulled the impression my opinions flip flop in the wind... the same place you keep your head. Oh but that doesn't necessarily apply to you, you terribly sad dope  I've been a hoops addict most of my life, and I've had the league pass for years. While I'm open to players evolving and improving, generally I've found they don't. Magliore has never impressed me that much. He's servicable, but hardly dominant. Swift has impressed me on a few occations last season with his size, and athletism.

See if you can disagree with making a total bleep of yourself 

STOMP


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## Blazer Freak (Jul 11, 2004)

Great first post SeaBlzr and welcome to the board. It was a great read, I'm really getting excited for the season as Zach is looking really good.


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## hammer (Oct 29, 2005)

Samuel said:


> I wasn't talking about Ben.


Okay, so you're saying that Rasheed Wallace is one of the best defensive big men of all time? Did you actually post that? That's some of the worst basketball talk that I'e ever heard.


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## hammer (Oct 29, 2005)

STOMP said:


> Did I indicate that my opinion on Swift and Magloire was in any way based on last night's preseason game, preseason in general, or did you rely on _special_ reading abilities to come to that conclusion? Your reading comprehension skilz shone again in clarifying Samuel's post. He was referring to Rasheed as one of the elite big defenders who Aldridge would be unlikely to be as good as. For obvious reasons LA has been compared to former Blazer Wallace for a few years now... only you were confused.


Yep, I was confused because he said that "Wallace" was one of the greatest defensive big men of all time. I figured that he had to be talking about Ben. I mean, who wouldn't? You are confused as to why I was confused, which is hilarious in and of itself.

You don't know your NBA too well if you think that Robert Swift is or will be anywhere near as valuable of an asset as Jamal Magloire is. That NBA league pass is proving to be a huge waste of money if this particular argument is any indication. You should know that he's a supreme bruiser in the paint, when he is on. 

And I wasn't being presumptuous about the manner in which you come up with your NBA assessments. I clearly stated "THIS DOES NOT NECESSARILY REFER TO YOU...". All I've been reading around here are knee-jerk reactions and sad assessments about players after a handful of preseason games. This Swift > Magloire thing would seemingly qualify, although I didn't say you were straight up guilty of premature ejaculation, now did I? [strike]Your post just reminded me of all the nonsense I've been reading around here. [/strike]

How do you like my comprehension skillz now?


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

hammer said:


> Yep, I was confused because he said that "Wallace" was one of the greatest defensive big men of all time. I figured that he had to be talking about Ben. I mean, who wouldn't? You are confused as to why I was confused, which is hilarious in and of itself.


I wasn't confused. I read what you wrote, and saw that you gaffed (again), and pointed it out. It's not just many on this board that feel that Rasheed is one of the better defending bigs of all time, future HOF coaches and players have paid the same sort of compliments. That you'd think someone would be comparing skinny lanky 6'10 Aldridge with his smooth jumper to 6'7 banger Ben Wallace is pretty telling.



> You don't know your NBA too well if you think that Robert Swift is or will be anywhere near as valuable of an asset as Jamal Magloire is. That NBA league pass is proving to be a huge waste of money if this particular argument is any indication. You should know that he's a supreme bruiser in the paint, when he is on.


You're so thick, why would anyone care what you think about anything? Boy, debating like you sure is fun!



> And I wasn't being presumptuous about the manner in which you come up with your NBA assessments. I clearly stated "THIS DOES NOT NECESSARILY REFER TO YOU...". All I've been reading around here are knee-jerk reactions and sad assessments about players after a handful of preseason games. This Swift > Magloire thing would seemingly qualify, although I didn't say you were straight up guilty of premature ejaculation, now did I? Your post just reminded me of all the nonsense I've been reading around here.


good grief... 

STOMP


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## hammer (Oct 29, 2005)

ThatBlazerGuy said:


> I think you underrate Swift. He is only 20 years old, and posesses very decieving athlecism. He is probably one of the more athletic centers in this league.


Swift is both weak and slow (terrible combination), and he doesn't have major offensive upside like a Ming or Gasol, so overall, he is not what I would call an NBA building block. He has next to no upside, and you don't need the NBA league pass to figure that one out.

Maybe he could contribute on the offensive end a little bit, but he ain't gonna be able to stop opposing big men or slide over to play effective help D. On paper, you'll see some blocks, but if you watch him closely, he's a major defensive liability. He'll be a quality back-up center down the line, but that's about it.

I don't think that I'm underrating him. I'm just looking around the league at legitimate building blocks, and Swift ain't it.


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## hammer (Oct 29, 2005)

STOMP said:


> I wasn't confused. I read what you wrote, and saw that you gaffed (again), and pointed it out. It's not just many on this board that feel that Rasheed is one of the better defending bigs of all time, future HOF coaches and players have paid the same sort of compliments.
> STOMP


Okay, just stop. Nobody in their right mind would EVER say that Rasheed Wallace is one of the "better" defensive big men of all time. [strike] That just shows a total lack of knowledge about the history of the game on your part.[/strike]

And the other dude said that Rasheed is one of the *best* defensive big men of all time, which is, as I stated, [strike]some of the most terrible basketball talk that I have ever heard. [/strike] I mean, you really have to be on another planet to come up with that idea. Saying that he's one of the *better* defensive big men in the history of the game is [strike]crazy retarded[/strike] as well, don't get me wrong.

I am baffled by some of the stuff that I read in these threads. It's amazing.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

hammer said:


> Okay, just stop. Nobody in their right mind would EVER say that Rasheed Wallace is one of the "better" defensive big men of all time. That just shows a total lack of knowledge about the history of the game on your part.
> 
> And the other dude said that Rasheed is one of the *best* defensive big men of all time, which is, as I stated, some of the most terrible basketball talk that I have ever heard. I mean, you really have to be on another planet to come up with that idea. Saying that he's one of the *better* defensive big men in the history of the game is crazy retarded as well, don't get me wrong.
> 
> I am baffled by some of the stuff that I read in these threads. It's amazing.


Dean Smith has. Larry Brown has. Tim Duncan has. KG has. 

Now please go back to your [strike]crazy retarted planet[/strike] and take all your gradeschool insults with you. Obviously this spot isn't for you.

STOMP


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## 2k (Dec 30, 2005)

Wallace matched up well with most other PF’s. He played guys like Malone and Duncan as well as anyone else I know of. I would not call it a stretch to say he is one of the best at the position. The thing is Aldridge could be even better if he gains muscle because he is already a better shot blocker. Of coarse when you talk about adding muscle it’s a big if. Some guys do it easy some never pull it off.


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## Samuel (Jan 1, 2003)

hammer said:


> And the other dude said that Rasheed is one of the *best* defensive big men of all time, which is, as I stated, some of the most terrible basketball talk that I have ever heard. I mean, you really have to be on another planet to come up with that idea. Saying that he's one of the *better* defensive big men in the history of the game is crazy retarded as well, don't get me wrong.


You can disagree with me, but you don't have to be so irritating in the process. Take a deep breath and keep it respectful, okay?


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

hammer said:


> Swift is both weak and slow (terrible combination), and he doesn't have major offensive upside like a Ming or Gasol, so overall, he is not what I would call an NBA building block. He has next to no upside, and you don't need the NBA league pass to figure that one out.


That's ridiculous. Swift is a 20 year old starting NBA center. He's seven feet tall (not including the hair), skilled, and can run well.

Is he a guaranteed all-star center? No way. Is he an excellent prospect? Absolutely.

Ed O.


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## Blazer Freak (Jul 11, 2004)

This thread is very close to being closed if hammer and STOMP can't have a simple discussion. Let's keep it clean.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

It's automatic when I
Talk with old friends
The conversation turns to
teams we knew when their
wins were often and the
coliseum was the place to go

Clyde and Buck and 
Duck and Terry
Don't forget Jerome 
And of course Duckworth
amped up MC
Let's get together and
Win it again

With a girl the garden seems almost full in moonlight
Makes your night times warm and out of sight

Been so long
(Hey now hey now hey now hey now hey now)
(Hey now hey now hey now hey now hey now)

Well I've been thinking 'bout
All the wins we had, and losses and
All the faces we've missed so let's get
Back together and win it again


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Rasheed Wallace is a solid NBA defender. But I agree with Hammer on this, he is not one of the top defending big men of all-time. Not even close.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

zagsfan20 said:


> Rasheed Wallace is a solid NBA defender. But I agree with Hammer on this, he is not one of the top defending big men of all-time. Not even close.




I would put him in a different category than "solid". I would also say that Rasheed Wallace has been one of the better defenders during his playing days. Both Kevin Garrnett and Tim Duncan say he is by far the toughest defender. Both Kevin Garrnett and Tim Duncan are future hall of famers, so I'll take their word on it.


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## yakbladder (Sep 13, 2003)

mediocre man said:


> I would put him in a different category than "solid". I would also say that Rasheed Wallace has been one of the better defenders during his playing days. Both Kevin Garrnett and Tim Duncan say he is by far the toughest defender. Both Kevin Garrnett and Tim Duncan are future hall of famers, so I'll take their word on it.


I'd have to agree. They've mentioned him specifically by name out of everyone else in the league. And for those of us who've seen him play many years, he always drew the tough assignments in the front court. Is he going to stop Shaq? No, but then who is?

As to "of all time" I guess that depends upon how many people you're putting on the "all time" list. I'd certainly put him in the top 50 at least.


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## YardApe (Mar 10, 2005)

Sheed is a great help defender, the point I hope everyone is debating here. That's a bit different than man up defender when we talk about players like Jack.

Sheed in an already existing "good defense" as with Ben, elevates the defense to GREAT!


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## Public Defender (May 5, 2003)

Thanks for the great recap and welcome to the board.

As for the defensive capabilities of Rasheed Wallace, he's one of the best defending big men in the game right now, and has been since the late '90s. Dean Smith and Larry Brown know what they're talking about. He got overshadowed a bit, being on the same team as Ben Wallace, but now that Big Ben is gone, it's very likely that Pistons' fans will see just how good of a defender 'Sheed is. 

In Portland, Wallace defended the best player at any of three positions for nearly every game. That might be Karl Malone, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, or Rashard Lewis, on any given night. He would have spent more time defending Shaq if the Blazers weren't so worried about quick whistles. 

Is he one of the best defending big men of all time? I don't know. He's not better than Bill Russell, Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman, and there are, I'm sure a few others I'm not thinking of right now. But he's probably among the 25 best defensive big men ever. 

Now, if only he'd been half-a-step quicker and blocked Sean Elliott's three-pointer back in '99.


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## hammer (Oct 29, 2005)

Ed O said:


> That's ridiculous. Swift is a 20 year old starting NBA center.


And what does that say about the Supersonics? They have cornered the market on extremely raw centers. They have no choice but to start Swift or some other dude who ain't even old enough to buy a beer. They are by far one of the dumbest organizations in the NBA.



Ed O said:


> He's seven feet tall (not including the hair)


Oh wow, he's 7'0 tall. Now I am convinced that he is a legitimate NBA building block. :biggrin: 



Ed O said:


> He's skilled, and can run well.


He also plays basketball in slow motion, and he could never hope to bang with legitimate big men down in the paint. 



Ed O said:


> Is he a guaranteed all-star center? No way. Is he an excellent prospect? Absolutely.


Excellent prospect? That's a riot. What is his upside on defense? 

He will be a defensive liability until the day he retires, although it is not his fault. His work ethic could be absolutely superb, but that doesn't change the *FACT* that he just doesn't have the foot speed to play effective help defense, or the frame to put on much bulk.


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## hammer (Oct 29, 2005)

Public Defender said:


> Is he one of the best defending big men of all time? I don't know. He's not better than Bill Russell, Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman, and there are, *I'm sure a few others I'm not thinking of right now*. But he's probably among the 25 best defensive big men ever.


It's a hell of a lot more than just a few others. I'll keep this simple and provide a list of dominant defensive big men who played in the NBA at some point over the past 15 years.

Hakeem Olajuwon
Dikembe Mutombo
David Robinson
Ben Wallace
Tim Duncan
Dennis Rodman
Kevin Garnett
Alonzo Mourning

Rasheed Wallace should NEVER be lumped in with guys like these. I shouldn't have to point out the obvious, but there it is.

I'll put him in the second tier along with guys like Charles Oakley, PJ Brown, Theo Ratliff, etc.

Just be realistic. That's all I ask.


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## hammer (Oct 29, 2005)

mediocre man said:


> Both Kevin Garrnett and Tim Duncan say he is by far the toughest defender. Both Kevin Garrnett and Tim Duncan are future hall of famers, so I'll take their word on it.


Rasheed Wallace has his areas of excellence on defense, don't get me wrong. But overall, he is not one of the best or even one of the better defensive big men in the history of the NBA.

Remember, Charles Barkley said that the toughest defender that he ever encountered was Kevin McHale. Kevin could not play help defense to save his life, but if he was matched up with a particular type of offensive player, he could shut him down. Rasheed just happens to match up very, very well with Garnett and Duncan, but overall, you absolutely CAN NOT lump him in with the all-time great defensive big men. He doesn't crack a Top 25 list in his wildest dreams.


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## hammer (Oct 29, 2005)

yakbladder said:


> As to "of all time" I guess that depends upon how many people you're putting on the "all time" list. I'd certainly put him in the top 50 at least.


This is reasonable.


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## gatorpops (Dec 17, 2004)

hammer said:


> This is reasonable.


Yes! 

I'll chime in here now that the conversations has become resonable. 

Rasheed was and probably is one if the best at one-on-one defense in the league now and can and often does do it. Now does he allways do it? No. 

But in my estimation he is one of the best, and that may be his best feature as a player. Again in my estimation, easily one of the fifty best. I have seen him shut down much smaller and thought to be faster players as well. 

To me he is one of the best because he can cause great diffuculity for the shooter. This does not result in blocked shots or steals so much as it causes very difficult shots or passes. He is similar to Kevin Mchale in that he uses his great "length" to his advantage. Of course Kevin was probably the best at his position and I believe he is in the hall of fame partly because of it.

gatopops


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

hammer said:


> It's a hell of a lot more than just a few others. I'll keep this simple and provide a list of dominant defensive big men who played in the NBA at some point over the past 15 years.
> 
> Hakeem Olajuwon
> Dikembe Mutombo
> ...


:laugh: in continuing the theme of shouldn't have to point out the obvious... remember when you signed up? You agreed to keep things respectful addressing other posters. Saying that those who might disagree with you on something as subjective as an opinion is from another planet, retarted, terribly sad, crazy, or a complete dope is not being respectful in the least... right?

Your list. Dispite your dire warning  I can easily see how someone could lump Sheed in with a few of the guys there (Dennis, Ben Wallace), yet I could also see how others could disagree for a variety of reasons. In general, I'm with gatorpops assessment on how he uses his length to cut down the angles and generally plays smart. While he doesn't get the huge blocks and steals numbers of some of the other elites, he is an extremely effective on-ball defender on a variety of players beyond Duncan and KG... much moreso then any of your 2nd tier players IMO. I've seen him switch over to guard hot hands from Peja to Ming and completely shut them down. It did not come as a surprise to me when the Pistons took off following his arrival and I wouldn't be surprised to see them end up the class of the East once again. Those games against your Bulls should be interesting.

STOMP


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## Public Defender (May 5, 2003)

hammer said:


> It's a hell of a lot more than just a few others. I'll keep this simple and provide a list of dominant defensive big men who played in the NBA at some point over the past 15 years.
> 
> Hakeem Olajuwon
> Dikembe Mutombo
> ...


I think you should go back and watch some tape of Blazer games from 1999 to 2002 to get a better sense of what Wallace is capable of. Wallace's biggest problem is that he would occasionally be whistled more quickly than the guys you list. You could argue it's because he's fouling to make up for poor defense, but I would argue that he gets called (some of the time) for the same things that other players get away with. 

I would argue that Sheed, Duncan, and KG are basically equivalent - Wallace is capable of being more physical than Garnett and has quicker feet than Duncan. Playoff games between the Blazers & Spurs, and Blazers & Timberwolves were always fantastic low-post battles, and I would argue that Wallace was regularly the best defender on the floor, game in, game out. Another player you might mention is Karl Malone, who's got faster hands than any of those guys, but is the least athletic (except for maybe very early in his career before he bulked up). 

I would acknowledge that Sheed's not the shot-blocker that Mutombo, Olajuwon or Robinson were in their primes, but he's an equivalent one-on-one defender, if not better, depending on the assignment. 

Rodman is an entirely different case, since he basically took half the game off (when his team was on offense). 

Does Sheed deserve in the Top 50? Of course. Top 25? I'd say, yes but I think at that point, reasonable people can put different people there.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

hammer said:


> Rasheed Wallace has his areas of excellence on defense, don't get me wrong. But overall, he is not one of the best or even one of the better defensive big men in the history of the NBA.
> 
> Remember, Charles Barkley said that the toughest defender that he ever encountered was Kevin McHale. Kevin could not play help defense to save his life, but if he was matched up with a particular type of offensive player, he could shut him down. Rasheed just happens to match up very, very well with Garnett and Duncan, but overall, you absolutely CAN NOT lump him in with the all-time great defensive big men. He doesn't crack a Top 25 list in his wildest dreams.



I didn't lump him in that category. I said he was one of the best defenders at the PF possition in his era. When he was here in Portland other teams used to say how hard he was on defense because of his length. 


I don't even like Rasheed Wallace, I'm just going on other coaches and two future hall of famers opinion......I'm sorry, but they are more valuable than yours.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

hammer said:


> And what does that say about the Supersonics? They have cornered the market on extremely raw centers. They have no choice but to start Swift or some other dude who ain't even old enough to buy a beer. They are by far one of the dumbest organizations in the NBA.


It's easy to "support" your point by just claiming that everyone and everything else is dumb, I suppose.



> Oh wow, he's 7'0 tall. Now I am convinced that he is a legitimate NBA building block.


Good argument.



> He also plays basketball in slow motion, and he could never hope to bang with legitimate big men down in the paint.


You're full of it, man. He runs the floor quite well. He's athletic. He's white, but he's not slow and he's not unathletic for an NBA center.

He's a bit skinny and weak, for sure. But he's 20 years old. 



> Excellent prospect? That's a riot. What is his upside on defense?


What kind of question is that? He's got a good body (in spite of being thin, his frame is good) and he's athletic.



> He will be a defensive liability until the day he retires, although it is not his fault. His work ethic could be absolutely superb, but that doesn't change the *FACT* that he just doesn't have the foot speed to play effective help defense, or the frame to put on much bulk.


Again: it's pretty clear that you don't know what you're talking about. I have no idea how your opinion diverges so wildly from almost everyone else who watches him play.

Going into the NBA draft, he was considered pretty athletic, and everything that I've seen (and I see him more than occasionally) supports that perspective.

Ed O.


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