# Its starting again..the kobe mcgrady debates



## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

Why don't these guys just say Kobe is the best player on the lakers other than shaq and stop right there..

I am sure Kobe can score 30 ppg every game if he was on a team with scrub but I don't think he would get more than 20 wins with the team mcgrady has been with this season.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

It only starts because idiots write things like this. 



> Originally posted by fjkdsi!
> well kobe is going through that stretch of the season where he is trying to get assists on purpose
> i dont know
> i have a feeling he just wants to end up AVG more than T-mac
> ...


I mean look how stupid this is. I like McGrady an awful lot and I hope to god he stays in Orlando and they get Okafor but if someone said T-Mac is only getting assists because he wants more assists than Kobe wouldn't you think that person was a fool.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> It only starts because idiots write things like this.
> 
> 
> ...


I agree completely. Kobe has been playing out of his mind lately and you cant take that away from him. And the Lakers are winning, so I dont really see how someone can get on his case.


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

I can care less.

People are comparing Vince to Paul, but does it matter, when facts remain and opinions are unrealistic?


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

Let them debate. The winner is obvious.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> I can care less.
> 
> People are comparing Vince to Paul, but does it matter, when facts remain and opinions are unrealistic?


:yes: That says it all. Facts are facts, and opinions are full of would of, could of, should of!


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

Yep. And stats are my favorite fact.....


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> Yep. And stats are my favorite fact.....


Stats don't tell the whole story.


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

LoL, you know you wouldn't be saying that if Kobe had the better stats. Not at all.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> LoL, you know you wouldn't be saying that if Kobe had the better stats. Not at all.


Stats have nothing to do with why Kobe is better than Tracy.

You're so tangled in a Kobe/Tmac fued that you've lost all touch with reality. :nonono: Poor guy


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

It has nothing to do with why Kobe is better because T-Mac is the one that's better. If anyone has lost touch with reality it's you.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

You never explain your position. You tend to say the same thing your opposition says in reverse(tit for tat) or make blank statements. See, what you don't understand is there's no right or wrong answer as to why Tracy is better than Kobe, or Kobe is better than Tracy. It's all a matter of opinion. The key is to be able to support your arguement with some sort of rational, you never have, and I doubt you ever will. :nonono:


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## ...CeLpH iZ SiKK... (Feb 21, 2004)

McGrady Is Defenitly In My Opinion A Better Player Than Kobe... He Has A Better Shot/Defense... The Whole Package... Kobe Would Average More Points WithOut Shaq... But I Dont Think He Would Be Able To Control The Team As Good As Shaq Does WithOut Kobe... 

The Fact Is... Lakers Have A Better Chance Of Losing WithOut Shaq... Than Games They Dont Have Kobe... ThereFore... The Lakers Are Shaq's Team... And He Will Remain The Franchise Player There Until He Retires...


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Well all I got to say is watch who makes the 1st all NBA team this year. IMO it will be Kidd, McGrady, KG, Duncan and Shaq.


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> Well all I got to say is watch who makes the 1st all NBA team this year. IMO it will be Kidd, McGrady, KG, Duncan and Shaq.


But - that also is another personal opinion. You see, some of us really can appreciate a Kobe and a TMac, just like we could appreciate a Jordan and a Drexler. 

Now, if someone asks me who I prefer & why - I then ask then this: "Why do you want to know?"


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## 2cent (Apr 20, 2003)

(in your best Andre-3000 voice)
Dear god
its me,2 cent, please let the magic get a big strong center so we can end this debate once and for all.:grinning:


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> But - that also is another personal opinion. You see, some of us really can appreciate a Kobe and a TMac, just like we could appreciate a Jordan and a Drexler.
> ...


:yes:


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> McGrady Is Defenitly In My Opinion A Better Player Than Kobe... He Has A Better Shot/Defense...


I don't agree but I can understand an opinion saying Tracy has a better shot, okay.... but how can anyone say Tmac is a better defender when he's never made an all league defensive team, but Kobe is on that team every year? 

Isn't that like saying Jamal McGloire is a better defender than Tim Duncan?


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## Hov (Aug 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> Let them debate. The winner is obvious.


Umm...... No.
Sure it is a matter of preference/opinion, but the winner ISNT OBVIOUS. Give Kobe a chance to actually have his own team for a whole season and see how he does before you judge who is better.


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

Yeah, Kobe is a much better defender.... when the refs allow him to beat the hell out of the person he's defending. Why doesn't mr. super defense gaurd T-Mac by himself? Talk about overrated.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>2cent</b>!
> (in your best Andre-3000 voice)
> Dear god
> its me,2 cent, please let the magic get a big strong center so we can end this debate once and for all.:grinning:


Everyone is wishing for that with you, even the Lakers, another guy to put next to the orginal.

-Petey


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> But - that also is another personal opinion. You see, some of us really can appreciate a Kobe and a TMac, just like we could appreciate a Jordan and a Drexler.
> ...


LMAO!!!!!!!! :laugh:

You comparing McGrady to Drexler and Kobe to Jordan is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard. 

Kobe could hold Jordan's jock and McGrady >>>>> Drexler ever was.


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

T-Mac > Kobe

T-Mac > Drexler

Jordan > Them all


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## quick (Feb 13, 2004)

> Why doesn't mr. super defense gaurd T-Mac by himself? Talk about overrated.


 no kidding

Kobe may have made it to the all defensive team but I bet he won't make it for consecutive years.Kobe having help with guarding mcgrady is proof that he isn't all that good of a defender.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> Yeah, Kobe is a much better defender.... when the refs allow him to beat the hell out of the person he's defending. Why doesn't mr. super defense gaurd T-Mac by himself? Talk about overrated.


Rick Fox has always been the match up man for the opposing teams bigger swing man. That doesn't change when LA plays Orlando and it surely doesn't undermine Kobe defense. 

BTW, you didn't see Tmac guarding Kobe either.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>quick</b>!
> no kidding
> 
> Kobe may have made it to the all defensive team but I bet he won't make it for consecutive years.Kobe having help with guarding mcgrady is proof that he isn't all that good of a defender.


You would think Kobe making the all NBA defensive team would be enough proof. And yes he has consecutively been a member of the all nba defensive team each of the following years:

1999-2000
2000-2001
2001-2002
2002-2003 

99-2003 is consecutive right?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> T-Mac > Drexler


You don't really think Tmac is greater than Clyde Drexler.

If you do, I would love for you to amuse everyone as to the reasons why?


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## quick (Feb 13, 2004)

> You would think Kobe making the all NBA defensive team would be enough proof. And yes he has consecutively been a member of the all nba defensive team each of the following years:
> 
> 1999-2000
> 2000-2001
> ...


 What I meant was in the next years and he isn't going to be in the all defensive first team that much.If he was mr all defensive team then why does he have help guarding mcgrady? That proves me that he isn't a great a man to man defender that hes overrated.


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## Hov (Aug 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>quick</b>!
> Kobe having help with guarding mcgrady is proof that he isn't all that good of a defender.


Tell me ONE player that can stop TMac one on one. No one can.
You guys make it sound like TMac is a poor offensive player. I mean, he's one of the elite scorers in the NBA so how do you expect anyone to stop him one on one?


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> You don't really think Tmac is greater than Clyde Drexler.
> ...


Oh no, I really do. I don't know why I'd have to list reasons why. Drexler was never the athlete T-Mac is. 1-on-1, T-Mac would win.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh no, I really do. I don't know why I'd have to list reasons why. Drexler was never the athlete T-Mac is. 1-on-1, T-Mac would win.


So the player that would win a one on one matchup is the better player. That's how you judge who is a greater athlete than the next. You should revaluate your thinking. Besides, saying Drexler was never the athlete Tmac is not true. Clyde is one of the most versatile players the league has ever seen. He accomplished as well. There is no way Tracy McGrady is a greater athlete than Clyde Drexler. He may be one day, but not today.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> So the player that would win a one on one matchup is the better player. That's how you judge who is a greater athlete than the next. You should revaluate your thinking. Besides, saying Drexler was never the athlete Tmac is not true. Clyde is one of the most versatile players the league has ever seen. He accomplished as well. There is no way Tracy McGrady is a greater athlete than Clyde Drexler. He may be one day, but not today.


Do you have Kobe over Clyde Drexler?

-Petey


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you have Kobe over Clyde Drexler?
> ...


Without really researching and looking into it, I'd say NO, but it's close. Kobe's different because he is much more accomplished than Tracy and that's what ultimately decides how great a player is. 

I'll take some time and really evaluate who is the greater athelete, but I'd say Drex has the edge.... for now.


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

How the **** can you say McGrady is the better athlete and vice versa? It's impossible.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Drexler has won a title, but much like Kobe has rode Shaq's coattails to a championship, Drexler did the same with Hakeem. 

I also don't remember Drexler winning an NBA scoring title. I don't remember him making the 1st all NBA team 3 years in a row. I don't remember Drexler scoring 62 or more points in a game. 

McGrady is going on his 2nd scoring title and 3rd straight year of being on the 1st team all NBA. Of course he just joined the 60+ point club the other night. 

Hell Kerr has 5 NBA titles. Does that make him better then McGrady? Harper has 5 NBA titles. Is he better then McGrady? 

There are more out there with NBA titles. Are they all better then McGrady?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> Drexler has won a title, but much like Kobe has rode Shaq's coattails to a championship, Drexler did the same with Hakeem.


Kobe earned his titled. I don't see how you can say this man rode a coattail when he is the one that leads the team in scoring, assist, steals, and is first team on both sides of the ball. He's the teams shutdown defender. And he is the guy that puts LA over the hump in close games. 



> I also don't remember Drexler winning an NBA scoring title. I don't remember him making the 1st all NBA team 3 years in a row. I don't remember Drexler scoring 62 or more points in a game.


Do me a favor and read this about Clyde. Then explain how, Tmac has done more in his career. 

http://www.nba.com/history/players/drexler_bio.html



> McGrady is going on his 2nd scoring title and 3rd straight year of being on the 1st team all NBA. Of course he just joined the 60+ point club the other night.


That's wonderful. But it still doesn't explain how he's greater than Clyde Drexler.



> Hell Kerr has 5 NBA titles. Does that make him better then McGrady? Harper has 5 NBA titles. Is he better then McGrady?


I didn't mention titles, you did. Accomplished doesn't equal rings.
John Stockton is ten times over more accomplished than Tracy McGrady. He never won a scoring title, and may not have been first team 3 years in a row. But he's clearly more accomplished and greater... having nothing to do with titles.



> There are more out there with NBA titles. Are they all better then McGrady?


No, don't be silly.


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## quick (Feb 13, 2004)

> Tell me ONE player that can stop TMac one on one. No one can.
> You guys make it sound like TMac is a poor offensive player. I mean, he's one of the elite scorers in the NBA so how do you expect anyone to stop him one on one?


hes not that unstoppable.Shareef abudur rahim a month ago guarded him well and kenyon martin is one of the players that comes close.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>quick</b>!
> hes not that unstoppable.Shareef abudur rahim a month ago guarded him well and kenyon martin is one of the players that comes close.


Rahim is a PF. Why would he guard McGrady? 

Martin comes close? I guess that would explain the 46 point triple double McGrady slapped the Nets with last year?


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe earned his titled. I don't see how you can say this man rode a coattail when he is the one that leads the team in scoring, assist, steals, and is first team on both sides of the ball. He's the teams shutdown defender. And he is the guy that puts LA over the hump in close games.
> ...


With out Shaq, Kobe would be ringless just like McGrady. It is as simple as that. 

This is what Drexler has accomplished:

NBA champion (1995) - McGrady doesn't have one.....yet. Drexler

All-NBA First Team (1992) - McGrady will be on his 3rd straight by the end of this season. McGrady 

All-NBA Second Team (1988, '91) - McGrady made this his 1st year as a Magic player. I expect he will make more 1st teams then 2nd teams in his career though. Drexler 

All-NBA Third Team (1990, '95) - Again McGrady has never made this team, but then again since he has been making the all NBA teams, he has never been below 2nd all NBA team. Drexler 

10-time All-Star - McGrady is a 4 time allstar and I'm sure will see a lot more. Drexler 

One of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History (1996) - He will be replaced with a bunch of other players, namely guys like Kobe, McGrady, KG, Duncan, etc. before their careers end. Drexler 

Olympic gold medalist (1992) - McGrady will soon be one. Drexler

Scoring titles - McGrady has one, will have two after this season and I would bet he will have a lot more before his career is over with. I guess Drelxer has none? McGrady

Lots of what Drexler has accomplished, McGrady will either surpass, has surpassed or will get before his career is over with. Only way he wouldn't is if he gets injuried.

The only other thing that McGrady may not get is a ring. Some of the greats haven't got one and McGrady is no exception. Winning a title though has more to do with your team and luck then the player. Drexler won a title his last year in the league mainly because he was on the team that won the title the year before and had the best big man/player in the game at the time beside him. Hopefully McGrady will be as lucky and get a title before his career ends.


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> So the player that would win a one on one matchup is the better player. That's how you judge who is a greater athlete than the next. You should revaluate your thinking. Besides, saying Drexler was never the athlete Tmac is not true. Clyde is one of the most versatile players the league has ever seen. He accomplished as well. There is no way Tracy McGrady is a greater athlete than Clyde Drexler. He may be one day, but not today.


IV, do me a favor. What do you think of when someone says the words "better athlete"? If the first thing that comes to mind is accomplishments, you have absolutely no idea what the word athletic means. I'll give you a hint, it has to do with a person's body, not how many rings they wear that was won for them by one of their teammates.

McGrady is TODAY a better athlete than Drexler was.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> 
> 
> With out Shaq, Kobe would be ringless just like McGrady. It is as simple as that.


That's an assumption. You don't know this to be true and if he won elsewhere you'd make other excuses as to why he won. 



> This is what Drexler has accomplished:
> 
> NBA champion (1995) - McGrady doesn't have one.....*yet.* Drexler


keyword yet. My arguement focuses on the present. Drexler is a greater player than Tmac. That's not even questionable. Is there a possibly Tracy will become greater than him in the future, yes.



> All-NBA First Team (1992) - McGrady will be on his 3rd straight by the end of this season. McGrady


okay 



> All-NBA Second Team (1988, '91) - McGrady made this his 1st year as a Magic player. I expect he will make more 1st teams then 2nd teams in his career though. Drexler


okay



> All-NBA Third Team (1990, '95) - Again McGrady has never made this team, but then again since he has been making the all NBA teams, he has never been below 2nd all NBA team. Drexler


okay



> 10-time All-Star - McGrady is a 4 time allstar and I'm sure will see a lot more. Drexler


okay 



> One of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History (1996) - He will be replaced with a bunch of other players, namely guys like Kobe, McGrady, KG, Duncan, etc. before their careers end. Drexler


I doubt the NBA would disrespect it's top 50 pioneers by replacing them. 



> Olympic gold medalist (1992) - McGrady will soon be one. Drexler


That wont be the same as being a Dream Teamer, you know that.



> Scoring titles - McGrady has one, will have two after this season and I would bet he will have a lot more before his career is over with. I guess Drelxer has none? McGrady


okay



> Lots of what Drexler has accomplished, McGrady will either surpass, has surpassed or will get before his career is over with. Only way he wouldn't is if he gets injuried.


In other words you argee Drex is the greater of the two.



> The only other thing that McGrady may not get is a ring. Some of the greats haven't got one and McGrady is no exception. Winning a title though has more to do with your team and luck then the player. Drexler won a title his last year in the league mainly because he was on the team that won the title the year before and had the best big man/player in the game at the time beside him. Hopefully McGrady will be as lucky and get a title before his career ends.


Winning has nothing to do with luck. Should Tmac ever win not just a ring, but a playoff series, it will be because his team fought harder than it's opposition. Not because they were lucky.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> 
> 
> IV, do me a favor. What do you think of when someone says the words "better athlete"? If the first thing that comes to mind is accomplishments, you have absolutely no idea what the word athletic means. I'll give you a hint, it has to do with a person's body, not how many rings they wear that was won for them by one of their teammates.
> ...


Again you've changed the subject to support you position. I agree that Tmac is more athletic than alot of player that have played in the NBA. 

To address your question, the first thing that comes to mind when someone says 'better athlete,' I think of the players physical makeup. Trust me, you will never have to educated me or anyone else for that matter on diction. However, when I refer to greater athlete, I'm not speaking of the players natural gifts, or talent I'm speaking of the guys who have acheived more in his respective sports. I believe Babe Ruth is number 3 or 4 on ESPN's top athletes of the century. Do you think he's more athletic than Tmac? Of course not, but do you get ESPN's point? You should.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

> That's an assumption. You don't know this to be true and if he won elsewhere you'd make other excuses as to why he won.


No that is truth. Only fans that won't admit are Kobe lovers. Even Laker fans will admit that, the ones who know better. 



> keyword yet. My arguement focuses on the present. Drexler is a greater player than Tmac. That's not even questionable. Is there a possibly Tracy will become greater than him in the future, yes.


I explained this later in my post. Next time read the whole thing before you talk. 



> I doubt the NBA would disrespect it's top 50 pioneers by replacing them.


There will another 50 top players of all time and I'm sure players like Kobe, McGrady, Shaq, KG, etc. will be apart of that. 



> That wont be the same as being a Dream Teamer, you know that.


A gold medal is a god medal. Doesn't matter what team you are on.



> In other words you argee Drex is the greater of the two.


Sure, but he was also greater then Kobe and any other guard in this league right now. Doesn't mean McGrady or Kobe won't pass him. Only thing that McGrady may not get is a championship or gold medal due to injury or not being on the right team. 



> Winning has nothing to do with luck. Should Tmac ever win not just a ring, but a playoff series, it will be because his team fought harder than it's opposition. Not because they were lucky.


Sorry but there is a lot of luck in winning a championship. Most teams that do win avoid the injury bug. There have been lots of great teams that didn't win a title because one or two or even 3 of their top players were injuried by the end of the season. Pistons, Lakers, Celtics, etc. Do you honestly think the Bulls would have won 6 titles if say Pippen or Grant or Jordan, etc. couldn't play in the finals or conference finals, etc.? 

Most teams that win titles also have things go about as perfect as they can go when it comes to the playoffs. They get all of the loose balls. They get the right shot at the right time. Certain players that you would never even dream of, step up big time. Take last years finals for instance. No one saw Steve Kerr coming in that one game where he couldn't miss. I mean the guy barely got playing time, but the one game the Spurs needed him the most, he shows up. Little things like that go a long way at the right time. Basically everything has to come together at the right time to win a title. It is harder then you think is what I'm trying to get at.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> No that is truth. Only fans that won't admit are Kobe lovers. Even Laker fans will admit that, the ones who know better.


We could argue like idiots all day if you like. You say, Kobe can't do this... blah, blah, blah its' all because of Shaq. Without Shaq he's nothing. I'll say, Kobe can do it, he can do it without Shaq, blah, blah, blah. Since neither of us are idiots let's not argue that way. Let's be reasonable. The truth deals with conforming to facts & actuality, things that have happened. Assumptions are basically opinions. If you say Kobe can't do this and he's never had the chance to succeed or fail, there is no truth to that arguement only an assumption. 



> I explained this later in my post. Next time read the whole thing before you talk.


that's very funny 



> There will another 50 top players of all time and I'm sure players like Kobe, McGrady, Shaq, KG, etc. will be apart of that.


That's another assumption. Here's mine, there wont be another 50 great team that replaces previous members. There may be a 100 greatest players that will include all the players you mentioned, but I doubt the NBA will disrespect its forerunners by replacing them. 



> A gold medal is a god medal. Doesn't matter what team you are on.


Being a member of the 92' Dream team is much more of an honorable accolade than being a member of any other gold medal winning squad.


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

> That's an assumption. You don't know this to be true and if he won elsewhere you'd make other excuses as to why he won.


Actually, we do know this to be true. If you weren't such a Kobe lover you'd stop denying the truth and see it too. He WOULDN'T win elsewhere. That's kinda the point.

And winning a gold medal is winning a gold medal. Don't tell me being on the "Dream Team" makes it better. Actually winning with a lesser team should mean more. Corrected again.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> Actually, we do know this to be true. If you weren't such a Kobe lover you'd stop denying the truth and see it too. He WOULDN'T win elsewhere. That's kinda the point.


My point is Kobe could win a title on another team. This is a possibility. He's a great basketball players, the idea of him finding glory elsewhere is not an indefinate thought.

Your point is Kobe would not win a title on another team. It's impossible. He can't win without Shaq. 

How can you honestly consider this the truth. That is an opinion. not a true statement. How foolish can you be. I know you dislike Kobe and would never think he could do anything without Shaq. That's fine, but 'man up'..... you'd agree that Kobe is a much better players than Steve Kerr and he management to win two titles after playing with Jordan. Go figure?



> And winning a gold medal is winning a gold medal. Don't tell me being on the "Dream Team" makes it better. Actually winning with a lesser team should mean more. Corrected again.


No gold medal holds the honor of a 'dream team' medal. Sure winning a gold medal is a monuemental acheivement. But playing with the likes of Jordan, Magic, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Bird, Pippen, Drexm etc.... is unprecedented.


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