# Mark Steins Power ratings



## Knicksbiggestfan

Rankings can be found here 


I appreciate this guys position and job, but what the holy high hell is he doing Placing the raptors and cavaliers above us. For that matter what are the wizards doing above us as well?


I also take issue with the fact that the griz are 26th, that's just insane.


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## MJG

I think all three teams can very easily be argued to be above the Knicks, and I think Memphis is pretty close to where they should be (though this is more of a personal opinon).


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## Knicksbiggestfan

I'll start with the worst then.


How on earth are the cavaliers 5 spots ahead of us?


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## Rashidi

> I'll start with the worst then.
> 
> How on earth are the cavaliers 5 spots ahead of us?


I will give you 10 reasons.

1. Best center in east

2. Lebron hype

3. Carlos Boozer was 10/7 as a rookie.

4. Lebron hype

5. Miles was practicing his 3pt shooting

6. Lebron hype

7. The bench is much deeper

8. Lebron hype

9. Ricky Davis might take fewer shots

10. Lebron hype.


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## MJG

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> I'll start with the worst then.
> 
> 
> How on earth are the cavaliers 5 spots ahead of us?


I do think that is a bit off as well. I think the Knicks will finish ahed of the Cavs this year, and while you can argue either way on that point, there is no way either team is five spots better than the other right now. As a whole I don't find the rankings that great to begin with, so I wouldn't try to argue on Stein's behalf.


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## The True Essence

...alot of questionable stuff here.I would rank the knicks 16-18 if mcdyess actually plays a bit


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## TyGuy

LeBron, Z, Davis, Miles, Good bench, good coach. Cleveland has a better squad then new york.


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## Rashidi

> Originally posted by <b>TyGuy</b>!
> LeBron, Z, Davis, Miles, Good bench, good coach. Cleveland has a better squad then new york.


Z can only play 30 minutes per game. 

Houston > Davis

Van Horn > Miles

Other than Amare, Garnett, and Kemp (notably, all are athletic PFs), what high schooler had a good season as a rookie? Kobe and TMac didn't light up the league in their first year, Lebron won't either.

NY's bench is also better... it's made up of quality veterans (aka former starters) like Spoon, Ward, Harrington, and Anderson. Cleveland has Newble, Miles, and Wagner. The first 2 can't score, and the last 1 shot the ball terribly last year is still recovering from his season ending injury. Not exactly deep.


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## TyGuy

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Z can only play 30 minutes per game.
> 
> Houston > Davis
> 
> Van Horn > Miles
> 
> Other than Amare, Garnett, and Kemp (notably, all are athletic PFs), what high schooler had a good season as a rookie? Kobe and TMac didn't light up the league in their first year, Lebron won't either.
> 
> NY's bench is also better... it's made up of quality veterans (aka former starters) like Spoon, Ward, Harrington, and Anderson. Cleveland has Newble, Miles, and Wagner. The first 2 can't score, and the last 1 shot the ball terribly last year is still recovering from his season ending injury. Not exactly deep.


Z will play about 35 minutes a game. For god sakes he played 81 games last year its time to get rid of his "foot" will slow him down opinion. Davis is pretty close to houston if not better (20, 5 and 5). Miles has shown a ton of improvement (increaed weight and rehabilitation of the knee) I think you will find that Miles may be prett yeven with Van Horn. By the wya at present time Miles is starting so he isnt a bench player. As for LeBron not only is he more talented then kobe and t-mac coming out of highschool but his body is nba ready and he is much more mature mentaly. He is atleast 1 season ahead of them so he will be a major contributor. If wags can be healthy, him alone would be a better spark plug then any of the knicks veterans coming off the bench. This team is younger and more talented then New York which means most of the time more dangerous then new york. I dont think you can say the same for the medicore new york knicks.


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## Dragnsmke1

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> 5. Miles was practicing his 3pt shooting


 are you saying no other player in the NBA worked on thier game!!!!


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## TyGuy

Miles stepped it up and is now realising his potential.


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## Rashidi

> Z will play about 35 minutes a game. For god sakes he played 81 games last year its time to get rid of his "foot" will slow him down opinion.


Feet don't get stronger over time. Rik Smits never played much more than 30 minutes per game either. And yes, it is an issue still. One injury free season does not remove questions. If that were the case, then Alonzo Mourning wouldn't have missed last year after being healthy the previous year. Why do you think the Cavs have 5 other centers (Mihm, Diop, McCoy, Sundov, Stewart) going into camp? Think they aren't looking for insurance?



> Davis is pretty close to houston if not better (20, 5 and 5).


Davis got that 20/5/5 stat padding for the worst team in basketball. Those numbers are worthless. He's a 3rd option on most teams. Put Latrell Sprewell on the worst team in basketball and he'll give you better numbers. At least he stat-padded so much that he cracked the All-NBA 2nd team while padding for Golden State. Spree had 24/5/6 in 96-97 for the Warriors. Stat padding doesn't impress me. Let's see Davis put up 15 ppg on a playoff team.



> By the wya at present time Miles is starting so he isnt a bench player


Does that mean Lebron is coming off the bench? I hope you're not thinking Miles will start at PG. He already averages 3 turnovers per game NOT playing PG. He has decent handle but doesn't have playmaking ability.



> I think you will find that Miles may be prett yeven with Van Horn.


Keith Van Horn (the first 3 years came at PF, last 3 at SF)
Year 1: 19.7 ppg, 6.6 rpg (led nets in scoring, 2nd in rebounding)
Year 2: 21.8 ppg, 8.5 rpg (led nets in scoring - more than marbury, 2nd in rebounding)
Year 3: 19.2 ppg, 8.5 rpg (2nd in scoring, 2nd in rebounding)
Year 4: 17.0 ppg, 7.1 rpg (2nd in scoring, 3rd in rebounding
Year 5: 14.8 ppg, 7.5 rpg (2nd in scoring, led nets in rebounding)
Year 6: 15.9 ppg, 7.1 rpg (2nd in scoring, 2nd in rebounding, raised FG% by 49 points)

Darius Miles
Has never averaged double figures.
Is 4-52 from 3pt range in his career.
Horrible FT shooter
Has never played for a .500 team.

With Jason Kidd and Allen Iverson, KVH was used more as a designated bailout shooter. In his days at PF he was a more active scorer. The Knicks will use him in the latter role much more than the former, since KVH does have a decent post game, which by default probably makes him the best post option for NY pining on McDyess's health/ability.

Considering you are probably predicting another 20/5/5 for Davis, another 17/7 for Ilgauskas, and for Lebron to be an effective player, I am wondering how Miles will get any shots to actually improve. They still have Boozer (10/7), who is likely to have a more increased role than Miles (who was still 9/5 in what was supposed to be his breakout year), and I'm sure Dajuan Wagner (13.4 ppg) is not going to be happy losing shots. So who is Miles supposed to get the ball from? 

Van Horn on the other hand, has been the 2nd scoring option on every team he's played on.



> If wags can be healthy, him alone would be a better spark plug then any of the knicks veterans coming off the bench.


Wagner was seen noticeably limping at training camp, and he's coming off a season where he shot .369 from the field.

Sorry, but I'll take veteran bench depth over one player that can't shoot 37%. Combined the 4 Knick bench regulars (Anderson, Spoon, Ward, Doleac) averaged 26.6 ppg, and they just added Sweetney, Lampe, and Harrington (he started last year since McDyess was injured)



> This team is younger and more talented then New York


So were the Clippers. Raw talent doesn't translate to wins.



> are you saying no other player in the NBA worked on thier game!!!!


It was a bit on the sarcastic side.


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## TyGuy

Actually miles will be playing a little pg which paul silas stated. Bassicaly its just to have the best 5 on the floor and they can have a true pg come off the bench. Your davis arguments about padding stats doesnt work. Houstons 22 a game was obviously more meaningful on route to another mediocre season. Wouldnt you agree the knicks were pretty bad last year? Was that padding stats as well(by the way Houston makes 105 mill and ricky makes 34, what contract would you rather have?)? Nice little reasoning you did to why kvh has prossively got worse as his career has unfolded. Why else would he be traded every off season? By the way KVh has reached his full potential and Miles hasnt. He is only 21 years old and realy for the first tiem has found his nitch and Cleveland and is working hard to improve his game while van horn just seems to ghet wrose and then get traded.


> So were the Clippers. Raw talent doesn't translate to wins.


 I think most teams would rather face the last two knick teams then the 2001 clippers who you never knew would show up. My point about being young and talented is they are inconsistant yes but when all things are clicking are very dangerous to face.


As for Wagner he will have to be happy with his new role or maybe Cleveland isnt the place for him? We will certainly find out. It is defnitely not out of the question to play big z around 34 minutes a game, he looked great all last year and played 81 games. Again we will have to wait and see but to predict his minutes based on old injury which he proved to be fine last year? As it still stands i think most would agree that Cleveland is a better squad then new york along with A LOT of other teams... Sorry


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## Rashidi

> Actually miles will be playing a little pg which paul silas stated. Bassicaly its just to have the best 5 on the floor and they can have a true pg come off the bench.


A little, not a lot. Miles is no playmaker, and he already is among the league leaders in turnovers. He will not be good at the PG position.



> Houstons 22 a game was obviously more meaningful on route to another mediocre season. Wouldnt you agree the knicks were pretty bad last year?


Unlike Davis, Houston has put up big numbers on a winning team before.



> by the way Houston makes 105 mill and ricky makes 43, what contract would you rather have?)


We're discussing talent, not salary. Ricky Davis doesn't exactly have a nice contract either. If Davis contract somehow makes him a better player than Houston, then Richard Jefferson blows the both of them out of the water.



> Nice little reasoning you did to why kvh has prossively got worse as his career has unfolded.


*sigh...* He didn't get worse. Numbers go down when you're on a talented team. Which part of this did you not understand?



> Why else would he be traded every off season?


Every offseason? He's been traded twice in his career. The Nets traded him because they had Martin and Jefferson, and were badly outmatched at center against Shaq.
The Sixers traded him because Glenn Robinson and Marc Jackson for Van Horn and Randy Holcomb is an obvious upgrade.

KVH has been traded 2 times in 6 years. 
Miles has been traded once in 3 years, and will probably be the first to be traded as Lebron's PT increases.

It's not like KVH is the first #2 scoring option to be traded from Philadelphia. There's a LONG list.



> It is defnitely not out of the question to play big z around 34 minutes a game, he looked great all last year and played 81 games.


He probably could. But why would Cleveland risk it? They have center depth, and it's not exactly like they're going on a playoff run.



> As it still stands i think most would agree that Cleveland is a better squad then new york along with A LOT of other teams... Sorry


On the contrary, most people agree that if McDyess comes back healthy, the Knicks are a playoff team. The only people that think the Cavs will be in the playoffs are the ones that think Lebron will put up 20/6/8, which any sensible fan would not think.


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## hollowtip

Keith Van Horn sux0rz. TyGuy pwned you.


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## hatnlvr

I think there is more taken into account in the power rankings than just who will finish with what record. They are looking at overall team and potential as well. With current rosters NY will probably win more games but Cleveland has a better core for the future.

Just my $.02


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## The OUTLAW

While I do believe that the Cavs are a bit high in this ranking and that the Knicks are possibly a better team than them this year. Don't get too excited though both teams are bottom half of the NBA.


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## CavsTalk

Im not trying to start a war here, but you can't honestly say Allan Houston is better than Ricky Davis.

There isn't a single team in the NBA that wants Houston. He's soft, he doesn't like contact, he doesn't play 100% all the time, he is GROSSLY overpaid. The Knicks want to deal him but nobody is dumb enough to take him on.

Ricky Davis was a hot item this off-season. A lot of teams wanted him, most noteably sp? the T Wolves, but they were turned down and went for second pickings.....your best player Latrell Spreewell.

As I read through this post, you can't honestly say there is one GM in the entire NBA that wouldn't choose the Knicks over the Cavs for a team to be in control of.

I mean, you guys are talking about playing KVH in the post....:laugh: 

That is two players nobody wants on their team, on the Knicks team. Also, he has been traded three times, not twice.

I mean, we can break it down:

Z vs I dont even know who starts, Knight and Doleac are your listed C's.

Z wins that easy, All-Star

Booz vs Thomas-Booz shoots, rebounds and just plays better. He didn't even sniff the floor the first two months and still had almost the same rebounding avg. 54 GS for Booz, all for Thomas. Clearly, if Booz had the same amount of time he would have had much much better stats.

Boozer.

Lebron James/Darius Miles vs KVH/Anderson
Anderson has been a servicable player his whole life. Nothing special. KVH has peaked, stats keep decreasing, teams dont want him. Lebron is a HS rookie that already has an NBA body (like Amare), is a very very smart player (unlike Kobe and TMac as rookies) and should put up better stats than either of those players. Darius has finally figured out you have to work to be good, after three years of no work and still showing tons of progress, he worked this off-season. He will make strides and be a contributer. Great D also....something KVH has nothing of.

Lebron/Miles easily.

Ricky Davis vs Allan Houston-You sound stupid for saying his stats are padded because of the team he played on. 

10-19/1-2..24 points, 4 boards, 2 steals & 2 TOs
8-23/0-5...25 points, 3 boards, 2 steals & 4 TOs

13-34/0-2...37 points, 11 boards, 9 AST, 2 steals
7-15/2-4...17 points, 3 boards, 3 steals

the two times they played (and guarded each other) Ricky outshined him in both games (esp G2). But I guess that is just because of Ricky is on a bad team. Please, Ricky didn't even start the first game and still played much much better than Allan. This is the NBA people, no matter if they are on a bad team, they are NBA players. This isn't HS comp. Your boy can't even guard Ricky.

The stats prove Allan is soft.......and not a team player what so ever.

22.5 PPG, 2.8 RPG, 2.7 APG, .66 SPG, .09 BPG, 44% FG, 91% FT, 39% 3PT

20.6 PPG, 5 RPG, 5.5 APG, 1.58 SPG, .46 BPG, 41% FG, 75% FT, 36% 3PT.

The only thing Allan is better than Ricky in is FT%, which Ricky shot almost 100 more than Allan.

The stats also show Ricky is a much better defender and team player in general. He will go get boards, he will pass the ball, he will defend. Three things Houston REFUSES to do.

Ricky Davis is the better player.

Bench play: PGs-Cavs
SG-Cavs
SF-Equal
PF-Knicks
C-Knicks

McDyess not discussed because he may not play....health up in the air, even if he is healthy he will never be the same player he once was.

I think the power rankings are justified.


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## TyGuy

> A little, not a lot. Miles is no playmaker, and he already is among the league leaders in turnovers. He will not be good at the PG position.


 Not sure what argument your bringing here but thanks for confirming Miles will be on the floor as a starter.


> Unlike Davis, Houston has put up big numbers on a winning team before.


Unlike houston Davis hasnt had the chance to play on a winning team and really only started blossoming last season.


> We're discussing talent, not salary. Ricky Davis doesn't exactly have a nice contract either. If Davis contract somehow makes him a better player than Houston, then Richard Jefferson blows the both of them out of the water.


 That was a little side comment I made if you noticed it wasnt in context with rebutle. I made a mistake in switching the number.. Davis is actually on a 6 year 34 million dollar contract. For someone that puts up the kind of numbers he puts up that is an EXCELLENT contract but I guess you have would rather pay 105 million for Houstons production. As far as Richard Jefferson he is on a rookie contract so he doesnt belong in your argument and if you want my opinion he is overated but thats another topic in itself. 



> sigh...* He didn't get worse. Numbers go down when you're on a talented team. Which part of this did you not understand?


 His scoring went down as he became a number 2 option on a team that needed him to score and phily, he failed to do so and was bounced from the playoffs and the team because of it. What is tehre to understand???



> Every offseason? He's been traded twice in his career. The Nets traded him because they had Martin and Jefferson, and were badly outmatched at center against Shaq.
> The Sixers traded him because Glenn Robinson and Marc Jackson for Van Horn and Randy Holcomb is an obvious upgrade.
> 
> KVH has been traded 2 times in 6 years.
> Miles has been traded once in 3 years, and will probably be the first to be traded as Lebron's PT increases.
> 
> It's not like KVH is the first #2 scoring option to be traded from Philadelphia. There's a LONG list.


 Hes been traded the last two offseason.. If he was as good as you say then surely he wold stick somewhere.



> On the contrary, most people agree that if McDyess comes back healthy, the Knicks are a playoff team. The only people that think the Cavs will be in the playoffs are the ones that think Lebron will put up 20/6/8, which any sensible fan would not think.


 On the contrary Z is back healthy and McDyess is nowhere to be found, Knicks would defintely be much better with him but that isnt the case right now is it.


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## hollowtip

> Im not trying to start a war here, but you can't honestly say Allan Houston is better than Ricky Davis.
> 
> There isn't a single team in the NBA that wants Houston. He's soft, he doesn't like contact, he doesn't play 100% all the time, he is GROSSLY overpaid. The Knicks want to deal him but nobody is dumb enough to take him on.
> 
> Ricky Davis was a hot item this off-season. A lot of teams wanted him, most noteably sp? the T Wolves, but they were turned down and went for second pickings.....your best player Latrell Spreewell.
> 
> As I read through this post, you can't honestly say there is one GM in the entire NBA that wouldn't choose the Knicks over the Cavs for a team to be in control of.
> 
> I mean, you guys are talking about playing KVH in the post....
> 
> That is two players nobody wants on their team, on the Knicks team. Also, he has been traded three times, not twice.
> 
> I mean, we can break it down:
> 
> Z vs I dont even know who starts, Knight and Doleac are your listed C's.
> 
> Z wins that easy, All-Star
> 
> Booz vs Thomas-Booz shoots, rebounds and just plays better. He didn't even sniff the floor the first two months and still had almost the same rebounding avg. 54 GS for Booz, all for Thomas. Clearly, if Booz had the same amount of time he would have had much much better stats.
> 
> Boozer.
> 
> Lebron James/Darius Miles vs KVH/Anderson
> Anderson has been a servicable player his whole life. Nothing special. KVH has peaked, stats keep decreasing, teams dont want him. Lebron is a HS rookie that already has an NBA body (like Amare), is a very very smart player (unlike Kobe and TMac as rookies) and should put up better stats than either of those players. Darius has finally figured out you have to work to be good, after three years of no work and still showing tons of progress, he worked this off-season. He will make strides and be a contributer. Great D also....something KVH has nothing of.
> 
> Lebron/Miles easily.
> 
> Ricky Davis vs Allan Houston-You sound stupid for saying his stats are padded because of the team he played on.
> 
> 10-19/1-2..24 points, 4 boards, 2 steals & 2 TOs
> 8-23/0-5...25 points, 3 boards, 2 steals & 4 TOs
> 
> 13-34/0-2...37 points, 11 boards, 9 AST, 2 steals
> 7-15/2-4...17 points, 3 boards, 3 steals
> 
> the two times they played (and guarded each other) Ricky outshined him in both games (esp G2). But I guess that is just because of Ricky is on a bad team. Please, Ricky didn't even start the first game and still played much much better than Allan. This is the NBA people, no matter if they are on a bad team, they are NBA players. This isn't HS comp. Your boy can't even guard Ricky.
> 
> The stats prove Allan is soft.......and not a team player what so ever.
> 
> 22.5 PPG, 2.8 RPG, 2.7 APG, .66 SPG, .09 BPG, 44% FG, 91% FT, 39% 3PT
> 
> 20.6 PPG, 5 RPG, 5.5 APG, 1.58 SPG, .46 BPG, 41% FG, 75% FT, 36% 3PT.
> 
> The only thing Allan is better than Ricky in is FT%, which Ricky shot almost 100 more than Allan.
> 
> The stats also show Ricky is a much better defender and team player in general. He will go get boards, he will pass the ball, he will defend. Three things Houston REFUSES to do.
> 
> Ricky Davis is the better player.
> 
> Bench play: PGs-Cavs
> SG-Cavs
> SF-Equal
> PF-Knicks
> C-Knicks
> 
> McDyess not discussed because he may not play....health up in the air, even if he is healthy he will never be the same player he once was.
> 
> I think the power rankings are justified.





> quote:
> A little, not a lot. Miles is no playmaker, and he already is among the league leaders in turnovers. He will not be good at the PG position.
> Not sure what argument your bringing here but thanks for confirming Miles will be on the floor as a starter.
> quote:
> Unlike Davis, Houston has put up big numbers on a winning team before.
> 
> Unlike houston Davis hasnt had the chance to play on a winning team and really only started blossoming last season.
> quote:
> We're discussing talent, not salary. Ricky Davis doesn't exactly have a nice contract either. If Davis contract somehow makes him a better player than Houston, then Richard Jefferson blows the both of them out of the water.
> That was a little side comment I made if you noticed it wasnt in context with rebutle. I made a mistake in switching the number.. Davis is actually on a 6 year 34 million dollar contract. For someone that puts up the kind of numbers he puts up that is an EXCELLENT contract but I guess you have would rather pay 105 million for Houstons production. As far as Richard Jefferson he is on a rookie contract so he doesnt belong in your argument and if you want my opinion he is overated but thats another topic in itself.
> 
> quote:
> sigh...* He didn't get worse. Numbers go down when you're on a talented team. Which part of this did you not understand?
> His scoring went down as he became a number 2 option on a team that needed him to score and phily, he failed to do so and was bounced from the playoffs and the team because of it. What is tehre to understand???
> 
> quote:
> Every offseason? He's been traded twice in his career. The Nets traded him because they had Martin and Jefferson, and were badly outmatched at center against Shaq.
> The Sixers traded him because Glenn Robinson and Marc Jackson for Van Horn and Randy Holcomb is an obvious upgrade.
> 
> KVH has been traded 2 times in 6 years.
> Miles has been traded once in 3 years, and will probably be the first to be traded as Lebron's PT increases.
> 
> It's not like KVH is the first #2 scoring option to be traded from Philadelphia. There's a LONG list.
> Hes been traded the last two offseason.. If he was as good as you say then surely he wold stick somewhere.
> 
> quote:
> On the contrary, most people agree that if McDyess comes back healthy, the Knicks are a playoff team. The only people that think the Cavs will be in the playoffs are the ones that think Lebron will put up 20/6/8, which any sensible fan would not think.
> On the contrary Z is back healthy and McDyess is nowhere to be found, Knicks would defintely be much better with him but that isnt the case right now is it.


PWNED


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## CavsTalk

? What was that


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## Rashidi

> There isn't a single team in the NBA that wants Houston. He's soft, he doesn't like contact, he doesn't play 100% all the time, he is GROSSLY overpaid. The Knicks want to deal him but nobody is dumb enough to take him on.


Once again, I will CLEARLY state, TALENT has NOTHING to do with CONTRACT.

If you're going to tell me that Ricky Davis is a better PLAYER because of his CONTRACT, then Richard Jefferson is better than both of them because he makes PEANUTS in comparison but still put up 15 ppg on a winning team.



> For someone that puts up the kind of numbers he puts up that is an EXCELLENT contract but I guess you have would rather pay 105 million for Houstons production. As far as Richard Jefferson he is on a rookie contract so he doesnt belong in your argument and if you want my opinion he is overated but thats another topic in itself.


Why are you willing to look down on Houston's contract, but clearly are willing to overlook the fact that RJ is on a rookie contract? The Knicks can afford Houston's contract. CONTRACTS DON'T WIN GAMES. Players do, which means it's a non-factor.

The reason Ricky Davis was so coveted is BECAUSE he makes 34 million, not because he is slightly more talented than Derek Anderson. He's a stat padder, a hired gun. Dominique Wilkins averaged 18 ppg for a bad San Antonio team too.

Feel free to explain to me in detail the vast difference in the "overrated" Richard Jefferson's game compared to Ricky "the stat padder" Davis.

Were you not paying attention when Davis shot the ball at his own basket because he wanted a rebound to complete his triple-double? 



> NBA that wouldn't choose the Knicks over the Cavs for a team to be in control of.


Which has nothing to do with Houston vs Davis, nor the on-court talent of the Knicks and Cavs TODAY. What Lebron does in 3 years is inconsequential. We're discussing today.



> His scoring went down as he became a number 2 option on a team that needed him to score


NJ Nets 01-02
Kenyon Martin: 14.9 ppg
Keith Van Horn: 14.8 ppg
Jason Kidd: 14.7 pppg
Kerry Kittles: 13.4 ppg
Todd MacCulloch: 9.7 ppg
Richard Jefferson: 9.4 ppg
Lucious Harris: 9.1 ppg
Top 7 combined: 86.0 ppg

Well, that kills your theory. The Nets were a balanced scoring team that year. There was no #2 option. There was no #1 option.

Sixers 02-03
Iverson: 27.6 ppg
Van Horn: 15.9 ppg
Snow: 12.9 ppg
Thomas: 10.1 ppg
Coleman: 9.4 ppg
McKie: 9.0 ppg
Top 6 combined: 84.9 ppg

The Sixers were not as balanced. Van Horn was clearly the 2nd option, and he averaged 16 ppg. He did what was expected, and he also raised his FG% by 49 points, meaning he made the most of his fewer shot attempts. He averaged this 15.9 ppg in about 31 minutes per game. Ilgauskas btw, averaged 17 ppg in about the same amount of court time.

Van Horn has become so villified by the media that he actually qualifies as underrated now. Yes, he "choked" in last years playoff. Actually, I think it was more due to good defense from Cliff Robinson. Cliff had shut down Pat Garrity even worse in the first round, and Van Horn had a very similar role to Garrity, catch kickouts from star SG. Regardless of whether that holds up or not, the fact remains that he was the one hitting all the big shots for NJ in the playoffs. He was the one that kept the Nets alive against Indiana in game 5, and he was the one that buried Boston in the conference finals. And then Kenyon Martin goes out and says he did crap in the finals. Martin is hardly judge, jury, and executioner, given his 3-23 performance in game 6 this year.



> If he was as good as you say then surely he wold stick somewhere.


I already explained the reasoning behind the trades. Refer to my earlier post.

MEANWHILE, Ricky Davis has played on THREE teams in FIVE years. Why hasn't he stuck somewhere?

Why hasn't Jim Jackson stuck anywhere? Is he the worst SG in basketball because he's been on TEN teams in 12 years?

If you're going to look down on KVH because of his trades, then you can't hold it to a double standard. Houston has played on 2 different teams, and he has never been traded in his career. Ricky Davis on the other hand, has been traded. So you'd be wise to drop all the double standarding.


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## CavsTalk

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Once again, I will CLEARLY state, TALENT has NOTHING to do with CONTRACT.
> 
> If you're going to tell me that Ricky Davis is a better PLAYER because of his CONTRACT, then Richard Jefferson is better than both of them because he makes PEANUTS in comparison but still put up 15 ppg on a winning team.
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you willing to look down on Houston's contract, but clearly are willing to overlook the fact that RJ is on a rookie contract? The Knicks can afford Houston's contract. CONTRACTS DON'T WIN GAMES. Players do, which means it's a non-factor.
> 
> The reason Ricky Davis was so coveted is BECAUSE he makes 34 million, not because he is slightly more talented than Derek Anderson. He's a stat padder, a hired gun. Dominique Wilkins averaged 18 ppg for a bad San Antonio team too.
> 
> Feel free to explain to me in detail the vast difference in the "overrated" Richard Jefferson's game compared to Ricky "the stat padder" Davis.
> 
> Were you not paying attention when Davis shot the ball at his own basket because he wanted a rebound to complete his triple-double?
> 
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with Houston vs Davis, nor the on-court talent of the Knicks and Cavs TODAY. What Lebron does in 3 years is inconsequential. We're discussing today.
> 
> 
> 
> NJ Nets 01-02
> Kenyon Martin: 14.9 ppg
> Keith Van Horn: 14.8 ppg
> Jason Kidd: 14.7 pppg
> Kerry Kittles: 13.4 ppg
> Todd MacCulloch: 9.7 ppg
> Richard Jefferson: 9.4 ppg
> Lucious Harris: 9.1 ppg
> Top 7 combined: 86.0 ppg
> 
> Well, that kills your theory. The Nets were a balanced scoring team that year. There was no #2 option. There was no #1 option.
> 
> Sixers 02-03
> Iverson: 27.6 ppg
> Van Horn: 15.9 ppg
> Snow: 12.9 ppg
> Thomas: 10.1 ppg
> Coleman: 9.4 ppg
> McKie: 9.0 ppg
> Top 6 combined: 84.9 ppg
> 
> The Sixers were not as balanced. Van Horn was clearly the 2nd option, and he averaged 16 ppg. He did what was expected, and he also raised his FG% by 49 points, meaning he made the most of his fewer shot attempts. He averaged this 15.9 ppg in about 31 minutes per game. Ilgauskas btw, averaged 17 ppg in about the same amount of court time.
> 
> Van Horn has become so villified by the media that he actually qualifies as underrated now. Yes, he "choked" in last years playoff. Actually, I think it was more due to good defense from Cliff Robinson. Cliff had shut down Pat Garrity even worse in the first round, and Van Horn had a very similar role to Garrity, catch kickouts from star SG. Regardless of whether that holds up or not, the fact remains that he was the one hitting all the big shots for NJ in the playoffs. He was the one that kept the Nets alive against Indiana in game 5, and he was the one that buried Boston in the conference finals. And then Kenyon Martin goes out and says he did crap in the finals. Martin is hardly judge, jury, and executioner, given his 3-23 performance in game 6 this year.
> 
> 
> 
> I already explained the reasoning behind the trades. Refer to my earlier post.
> 
> MEANWHILE, Ricky Davis has played on THREE teams in FIVE years. Why hasn't he stuck somewhere?
> 
> Why hasn't Jim Jackson stuck anywhere? Is he the worst SG in basketball because he's been on TEN teams in 12 years?
> 
> If you're going to look down on KVH because of his trades, then you can't hold it to a double standard. Houston has played on 2 different teams, and he has never been traded in his career. Ricky Davis on the other hand, has been traded. So you'd be wise to drop all the double standarding.


Nobody wants Houston because he is a soft selfish player. He is a mememe player and isn't very good. His contract is part of it, but even it was lower I doubt the Knicks could move him for anything than a 2nd rounder.

Jefferson is under a contract that was forced to sign, so that arguement is stupid and mute.

Which is why the Knicks are terrible and are trying to move every player, to no avail. Spree, your best player, was traded and what did you get to show for it? 

There isn't much you can build with that team, they are close to being over the salary cap because of terrible players being signed to high contracts; i.e. Houston, and they won't be winning for a while. Such a shame McDyess got hurt because he was a great player.

Were you not paying attention when he trashed the Knicks single handedly??? I already gave you the stats, but you chose to ignore head to head stats.

Get over your hired gun statements, this is the NBA. A bad player isn't going to do good because he is on a bad team. In the NBA, what a player does on a bad team he will do on a good team. This is one of the closest leagues to me me in team as it gets. 

I guess Elton Brand is a stat-padder too. I mean he is on two bad teams but has good stats, but they are bad teams....STAT PADDER!!! :laugh: :laugh: 

That arguement is lame and shows your basketball knowledge.

The Nets were a balanced scoring team because nobody stood out. Martin is a young PF, Kidd is not a scoring PG and Jefferson is young. KVH should have easily had 20+ PPG, but didn't. He couldn't do it because he isn't a scorer he isn't much of a basketball player. People think he can turn it around, but he can't. He is what he is...an avg SF.

KVH has been traded three times.....I dont know why you don't get that.

Why hasn't Ricky stuck??? Youth. 

KVH came out as a senior. People knew what they were getting. Ricky left after his freshman year. He needed time to develope. He was behind an all-star player in Eddie Jones in Charlotte and didn't like that and him and Silas had rifts so he was traded to the Heat. Unfortunently it was with Jones and he was a filler to make it work. Riley hates young players, everyone knows that, so Riley jumped on the chance to get a good bigman in return for a young player they could spare.

Hence, he developed in Cleveland and came out of his shell and has stuck. However, at the same time, everybody knows what they are gonna get with KVH and they still trade him. Knicks will eventually dump him when they find out he isn't what they expected him to be.

I mean seriously, you have two of the leagues softest players in Houston and Van Horn at the 2-3, you have a soft post player in Kurt Thomas....you don't even have a C. (Unless you go Thomas at 5 and Sweetney at 4). I mean, this team is a train wreck.

The Cavaliers actually have a direction, they have a plan.......what is New Yorks plan????


----------



## TyGuy

Ok now your starting to realy back peddle trying to say that the only reason we are backing davis is cause of his contract while cavtstalk gave you clear cut examples why he is a better player and cheaper...



> Once again, I will CLEARLY state, TALENT has NOTHING to do with CONTRACT.
> 
> If you're going to tell me that Ricky Davis is a better PLAYER because of his CONTRACT, then Richard Jefferson is better than both of them because he makes PEANUTS in comparison but still put up 15 ppg on a winning team.


 Ok this is really weak Jefferson doesnt belong in this conversation and I dont know why you keep shoveling him in here. Th reason Jefferson has a high field goal percentage and can score 15 a game is because of the offense j-kidd brings in the transition. Unlike Davis and Houston Jefferosn sucks in a half court offense. Again enough about Jefferson and I hope you dont keep citing him as an example. Cavstalk did a good job of telling you why Davis is a better player so why not quote him and respond? The reason we bring the contract to the table is becasue he is more valuable talent wise and could actually be traded if need be(unlikely).



> Why are you willing to look down on Houston's contract, but clearly are willing to overlook the fact that RJ is on a rookie contract? The Knicks can afford Houston's contract. CONTRACTS DON'T WIN GAMES. Players do, which means it's a non-factor.
> 
> The reason Ricky Davis was so coveted is BECAUSE he makes 34 million, not because he is slightly more talented than Derek Anderson. He's a stat padder, a hired gun. Dominique Wilkins averaged 18 ppg for a bad San Antonio team too.
> 
> Feel free to explain to me in detail the vast difference in the "overrated" Richard Jefferson's game compared to Ricky "the stat padder" Davis.
> 
> Were you not paying attention when Davis shot the ball at his own basket because he wanted a rebound to complete his triple-double?


 I was reffering to his role in Philly where he was complete let down then coincedentally was traded...



> already explained the reasoning behind the trades. Refer to my earlier post.
> 
> MEANWHILE, Ricky Davis has played on THREE teams in FIVE years. Why hasn't he stuck somewhere?
> 
> Why hasn't Jim Jackson stuck anywhere? Is he the worst SG in basketball because he's been on TEN teams in 12 years?
> 
> If you're going to look down on KVH because of his trades, then you can't hold it to a double standard. Houston has played on 2 different teams, and he has never been traded in his career. Ricky Davis on the other hand, has been traded. So you'd be wise to drop all the double standarding.


 Ricky Davis has stuck if he was so expendable as Keith Van Horn is he would be the first to go with the arival of LeBron James but thats definitely not the case with Davis being relied upon as the focal point of the offense this season and a leader.


----------



## Rashidi

> I mean, we can break it down:
> 
> Z vs I dont even know who starts, Knight and Doleac are your listed C's.
> 
> Z wins that easy, All-Star


Thomas started at center. He's not that far away from Z. The only thing between Thomas and an all-star berth last year was Brad Miller (who is in the west now). The fact that you think Doleac or Knight started indicates that you are not exactly well versed in Knick knowledge...



> Booz vs Thomas-Booz shoots, rebounds and just plays better. He didn't even sniff the floor the first two months and still had almost the same rebounding avg. 54 GS for Booz, all for Thomas. Clearly, if Booz had the same amount of time he would have had much much better stats.


Putting up numbers for the worst team in basketball is not hard. Nevermind that Thomas is better defensively, he's also got a better shot. Unfortunately, that shot has led his rebound total to decrease, because it draws him away from the basket. Since he was the only post player on NY last year, that was inevitable. FG% doesn't make one a good scorer. Mark Madsen has a high FG% too. One year does not a career make. Boozer has yet to post 10 ppg on a team with more than 20 wins, his scoring will obviously go down as more shots go to Lebron.




> Lebron James/Darius Miles vs KVH/Anderson
> Anderson has been a servicable player his whole life. Nothing special. KVH has peaked, stats keep decreasing, teams dont want him. Lebron is a HS rookie that already has an NBA body (like Amare), is a very very smart player (unlike Kobe and TMac as rookies) and should put up better stats than either of those players. Darius has finally figured out you have to work to be good, after three years of no work and still showing tons of progress, he worked this off-season.
> 
> 
> 
> Lebron is a smart player? Give me proof. He hasn't played a game in the NBA. Basketball smarts don't translate to NBA smarts. He's never faced NBA defense. He will obviously put up better numbers than them, because he will get more minutes than they did in their rookie years. Feel free to name one HS player under the height of 6'9 who had an impact in their rookie season. The only HSers in history to have impacts in their rookie season are Amare and KG.
> 
> What progress did Miles show? Last season was his worst season. He hasn't improved AT ALL since entering the league. Good for Darius, he figured out you need to work hard. Does that mean he's going to be markedly better? How many other players work hard in the off-season? Is Miles unique? Is he the only player on some sort of off-season training program?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He will make strides and be a contributer. Great D also....something KVH has nothing of.
> 
> 
> 
> Just like KVH has a good offensive game, something Miles has never heard of. On the worst team in basketball, Miles couldn't even score double figures. Put KVH on the worst team in basketball (late 90s New Jersey) and at least he'll average 20 ppg.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The stats prove Allan is soft.......and not a team player what so ever.
> 
> 22.5 PPG, 2.8 RPG, 2.7 APG, .66 SPG, .09 BPG, 44% FG, 91% FT, 39% 3PT
> 
> 20.6 PPG, 5 RPG, 5.5 APG, 1.58 SPG, .46 BPG, 41% FG, 75% FT, 36% 3PT.
> 
> The only thing Allan is better than Ricky in is FT%, which Ricky shot almost 100 more than Allan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh boy... here we go...
> 
> Allan Houston
> 93-94: 8.5 ppg, .405 fg%, .299 3pt% (Team record: 20-62)
> 94-95: 14.5 ppg, .463 fg%, .424 3pt% (Team record: 28-54)
> 95-96*: 19.7 ppg, .453 fg%, .427 3pt% (Team record: 46-36, TEAM MAKES PLAYOFFS)
> 96-97*: 14.8 ppg, .423 fg%, .385 3pt% (Team record: 57-25, TEAM MAKES PLAYOFFS)
> 97-98*: 18.4 ppg, .447 fg%, .385 3pt% (Team record: 43-39, TEAM MAKES PLAYOFFS)
> 98-99: 16.3 ppg, .418 fg%, .407 3pt% (Team record: 27-23, TEAM MAKES FINALS)
> 99-00*: 19.7 ppg, .483 fg%, .436 3pt% (Team record: 50-32, TEAM MAKES PLAYOFFS)
> 00-01*: 18.7 ppg, .449 fg%, .381 3pt% (Team record: 48-34, TEAM MAKES PLAYOFFS)
> 01-02*: 20.4 ppg, .437 fg%, .394 3pt% (Team record: 30-52)
> 02-03*: 22.5 ppg, .445 fg%, .396 3pt% (Team record: 37-45)
> 
> For your convenience, I asterisked all years that Houston was the 2nd leading scorer or better.
> 
> Ricky Davis
> 98-99: 4.5 ppg, 1.8 rpg, 1.3 apg, .405 fg%, .167 3pt% (Team record: 26-24)
> 99-00: 4.7 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 1.3 apg, .503 fg%, .000 3pt% (Team record: 49-33, TEAM MAKES PLAYOFFS)
> 00-01: 4.6 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 1.6 apg, .414 fg%, 1.000 3pt% (Team record: 50-32, TEAM MAKES PLAYOFFS, although, Davis only played in 7 games, and thus did not contribute to that)
> 01-02: 11.7 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 2.2 apg, .481 fg%, .314 3pt% (Team record: 29-53)
> 02-03*: 20.6 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 5.5 apg, .410 fg%, .363 3pt% (Team record: 17-65, the WORST TEAM IN BASKETBALL)
> 
> It's funny how you mentioned 3pt% as if Davis and Houston were in the same league, because Houston has 1178 threes made in 10 seasons, hitting 178 last year, while Davis has hit 88 threes in 5 years, 74 of them coming last year. Houston hit twice as many threes this year as Davis has hit in his whole career. But anyway...
> 
> Come back with your mighty statistical arguement when Davis puts up those numbers on a team with 47 wins, not 17. The fact that stats are elevated on a bad team is COMMON SENSE. What, do you think Kobe, Shaq, Malone, and Payton are ALL going to average 20+ ppg this year? Houston's stats are no exception. He is averaging 20+ ppg now that his team is not in the playoffs (but they're definitely not a 17 win team either), and that number will obviously go down as more talent surrounds him. Houston has been a major contributor on playoff teams, Davis never has. The Knicks were a 37 win team last year, and they haven't gotten any worse. If McDyess is healthy, they are obviously good enough to make the playoffs. Meanwhile, the Cavs do not. Jason Kidd took the Mavs from being a 15 win team to a 31 win team. Lebron James is NOT going to have that same impact that Kidd did. He is not going to improve his team by 24 games, which is what it would take for the Cavs to have a .500 record and make the playoffs.
> 
> By the way, Jim Jackson averaged 25.7 ppg that year for the Mavs. He also averaged 5.1 rpg, and 3.7 apg. He also got those points sharing the ball with Jamal Mashburn (24.1 ppg) Yet he's been traded to far more teams than Keith Van Horn. Sorry, but Ricky Davis' stats don't impress me in the slightest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The stats also show Ricky is a much better defender and team player in general. He will go get boards, he will pass the ball, he will defend. Three things Houston REFUSES to do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The stats are meaningless, as were most of the Cavs games last year. Assists don't make a player a team player. Davis was a selfish player that stat padded, plain and simple. Does a team player shoot at his own basket to get a rebound???
> 
> Houston's role for his team is to shoot the ball, and he does it damn well. They don't ask him to rebound the ball, or set up other players. They ask him to shoot the lights out. Is Davis a better rebounder? Sure, he's more athletic. Has Davis ever scored double figures on a team with more than 30 wins? No.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> McDyess not discussed because he may not play....health up in the air, even if he is healthy he will never be the same player he once was.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He is expected to play. Z is still just as big an injury risk whether you like it or not. How many foot surgeries did Z have? And you're trying to tell me that he's durable? The Knicks don't need McDyess to be the player he once was to get to the playoffs. Nobody is expecting 20/10 from McDyess.
> 
> If we can't talk about McDyess, then you should head to the Nets board and tell them that they can't talk about Alonzo Mourning. Or head to the Denver board and tell them they can't talk about Marcus Camby. Or head to the Cleveland board and tell them that Big Z will never play a full season.
> 
> Wait a second, he did play a full season, didn't he? Hmm. Who'd a thunk it. Obviously not you, since we're not allowed to talk about players coming off injuries.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## The True Essence

"you have a soft post player in Kurt Thomas"

since when was he soft? hes tough


----------



## TyGuy

> Oh boy... here we go...
> 
> Allan Houston
> 93-94: 8.5 ppg, .405 fg%, .299 3pt% (Team record: 20-62)
> 94-95: 14.5 ppg, .463 fg%, .424 3pt% (Team record: 28-54)
> 95-96*: 19.7 ppg, .453 fg%, .427 3pt% (Team record: 46-36, TEAM MAKES PLAYOFFS)
> 96-97*: 14.8 ppg, .423 fg%, .385 3pt% (Team record: 57-25, TEAM MAKES PLAYOFFS)
> 97-98*: 18.4 ppg, .447 fg%, .385 3pt% (Team record: 43-39, TEAM MAKES PLAYOFFS)
> 98-99: 16.3 ppg, .418 fg%, .407 3pt% (Team record: 27-23, TEAM MAKES FINALS)
> 99-00*: 19.7 ppg, .483 fg%, .436 3pt% (Team record: 50-32, TEAM MAKES PLAYOFFS)
> 00-01*: 18.7 ppg, .449 fg%, .381 3pt% (Team record: 48-34, TEAM MAKES PLAYOFFS)
> 01-02*: 20.4 ppg, .437 fg%, .394 3pt% (Team record: 30-52)
> 02-03*: 22.5 ppg, .445 fg%, .396 3pt% (Team record: 37-45)
> 
> For your convenience, I asterisked all years that Houston was the 2nd leading scorer or better.
> 
> Ricky Davis
> 98-99: 4.5 ppg, 1.8 rpg, 1.3 apg, .405 fg%, .167 3pt% (Team record: 26-24)
> 99-00: 4.7 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 1.3 apg, .503 fg%, .000 3pt% (Team record: 49-33, TEAM MAKES PLAYOFFS)
> 00-01: 4.6 ppg, 1.0 rpg, 1.6 apg, .414 fg%, 1.000 3pt% (Team record: 50-32, TEAM MAKES PLAYOFFS, although, Davis only played in 7 games, and thus did not contribute to that)
> 01-02: 11.7 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 2.2 apg, .481 fg%, .314 3pt% (Team record: 29-53)
> 02-03*: 20.6 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 5.5 apg, .410 fg%, .363 3pt% (Team record: 17-65, the WORST TEAM IN BASKETBALL)
> 
> It's funny how you mentioned 3pt% as if Davis and Houston were in the same league, because Houston has 1178 threes made in 10 seasons, hitting 178 last year, while Davis has hit 88 threes in 5 years, 74 of them coming last year. Houston hit twice as many threes this year as Davis has hit in his whole career. But anyway...
> 
> Come back with your mighty statistical arguement when Davis puts up those numbers on a team with 47 wins, not 17. The fact that stats are elevated on a bad team is COMMON SENSE. What, do you think Kobe, Shaq, Malone, and Payton are ALL going to average 20+ ppg this year? Houston's stats are no exception. He is averaging 20+ ppg now that his team is not in the playoffs (but they're definitely not a 17 win team either), and that number will obviously go down as more talent surrounds him. Houston has been a major contributor on playoff teams, Davis never has. The Knicks were a 37 win team last year, and they haven't gotten any worse. If McDyess is healthy, they are obviously good enough to make the playoffs. Meanwhile, the Cavs do not. Jason Kidd took the Mavs from being a 15 win team to a 31 win team. Lebron James is NOT going to have that same impact that Kidd did. He is not going to improve his team by 24 games, which is what it would take for the Cavs to have a .500 record and make the playoffs.
> 
> By the way, Jim Jackson averaged 25.7 ppg that year for the Mavs. He also averaged 5.1 rpg, and 3.7 apg. He also got those points sharing the ball with Jamal Mashburn (24.1 ppg) Yet he's been traded to far more teams than Keith Van Horn. Sorry, but Ricky Davis' stats don't impress me in the slightest.


 You act as if Davis has been around for awhile and has had tons of chances.. He came out of college after frosh year bounces around a bit becasue of youth and has finally stuck as he is realising his potential. Why is that hard for you to realise? Davis is a tremendous young talent on his way up that is signed long term for cheap. Houston is an extremely overpaid player signed long term that has already peaked and at PRESENT isnt as good as Davis. So stop referring to Houstons past because right now we are in the present with Davis currently putting up better stats with both on bad teams last year.


----------



## Rashidi

> Nobody wants Houston because he is a soft selfish player.


Please explain in detail how Houston is a selfish player. You obviously have never even seen him play. If anything, Houston's biggest weakness early in his career is that he DIDN'T demand the ball, he was willing to let other players shoot, which would take him out of flow of the game.

My, how selfish of him.



> He is a mememe player and isn't very good.


Explain how he is a me-first player without making the entire Knick population laugh.



> Which is why the Knicks are terrible and are trying to move every player, to no avail. Spree, your best player, was traded and what did you get to show for it?


37 wins isn't terrible. 17 wins is terrible.



> There isn't much you can build with that team, they are close to being over the salary cap because of terrible players being signed to high contracts; i.e. Houston, and they won't be winning for a while.


Once again, this is meaningless in the PRESENT. Currently, the Knicks are a more talented team. I am not argueing 5 years down the road. I am arguing today.

Such a shame McDyess got hurt because he was a great player.



> Were you not paying attention when he trashed the Knicks single handedly??? I already gave you the stats, but you chose to ignore head to head stats.


Were you not paying attention when I told you stats on a 17 win team don't matter? If Houston played for Cleveland, he'd average 25+ ppg.



> Get over your hired gun statements, this is the NBA. A bad player isn't going to do good because he is on a bad team. In the NBA, what a player does on a bad team he will do on a good team.


You obviously have no concept of NBA statistics, because this is clearly false. Refer to Jim Jackson, Mitch Richmond, Latrell Sprewell, Nick Van Exel, and Ricky Davis for further questions.



> I guess Elton Brand is a stat-padder too. I mean he is on two bad teams but has good stats, but they are bad teams....STAT PADDER!!!


I'm glad you're learning. Except there's one problem. Brand doesn't go out of the way to be detrimental to the team to get his stats. Davis does. Why do you think CHEMISTRY between Davis and Lebron is an issue?



> The Nets were a balanced scoring team because nobody stood out. Martin is a young PF, Kidd is not a scoring PG and Jefferson is young. KVH should have easily had 20+ PPG, but didn't.


Why should he have? I thought you said he sucked. Sucky players don't average 20 ppg, remember?



> He couldn't do it because he isn't a scorer he isn't much of a basketball player. People think he can turn it around, but he can't. He is what he is...an avg SF.


Genius, he's a Power Forward. He's been playing out of position for the last 3 years.

KVH has been traded three times.....I dont know why you don't get that.

Oh wait, I'm sorry, I forgot about draft day. Yes, that's right, I guess they traded the #2 pick because they thought he would suck more than Tim Thomas.

Basketball is a BUSINESS. Trades happen. Dominique Wilkens was also traded on draft night. So was Scottie Pippen, for Olden Polynice. So was Dirk Nowitzki, for Robert Traylor.



> Why hasn't Ricky stuck??? Youth.


That could be the worst reasoning I've ever heard. Every player in the NBA was young, but not all of them were traded.



> He was behind an all-star player in Eddie Jones in Charlotte and didn't like that and him and Silas had rifts so he was traded to the Heat.


Rifts with the coach? I thought he was a team player?

Unfortunently it was with Jones and he was a filler to make it work. Riley hates young players, everyone knows that, so Riley jumped on the chance to get a good bigman in return for a young player they could spare.

Hence, he developed in Cleveland and came out of his shell and has stuck. However, at the same time, everybody knows what they are gonna get with KVH and they still trade him. 



> Knicks will eventually dump him when they find out he isn't what they expected him to be.


They expect him to be a better rebounder than Sprewell, who was the worst rebounding SF in the league, and to replace Spree's 16 ppg. You're the one who expected him to score 20 ppg on a very deep team.



> I mean seriously, you have two of the leagues softest players in Houston and Van Horn at the 2-3, you have a soft post player in Kurt Thomas...


LMAO... The Thomas comment just killed your credibility. Just admit that you're biased already.




> you don't even have a C. (Unless you go Thomas at 5 and Sweetney at 4). I mean, this team is a train wreck.


A train wreck that still managed to win 20 games more than Cleveland without a center or McDyess.



> The Cavaliers actually have a direction, they have a plan.......what is New Yorks plan????


Goal#1: Make the playoffs
Goal #2: Develop Lampe and Sweetney. Lampe. You know, that guy who drew comparisons to Dirk Nowitzki and would have been a lottery pick had there not been draft day confusion over his european contract.

The Cavs have a direction, but that doesn't mean they are going to speed towards it. They have a long way to go. Even if they improve by 20 wins, they will only be as good as that "train wreck" you mentioned earlier.


----------



## Rashidi

> You act as if Davis has been around for awhile and has had tons of chances.. He came out of college after frosh year bounces around a bit becasue of youth and has finally stuck as he is realising his potential. Why is that hard for you to realise? Davis is a tremendous young talent on his way up that is signed long term for cheap. Houston is an extremely overpaid player signed long term that has already peaked and at PRESENT isnt as good as Davis. So stop referring to Houstons past because right now we are in the present with Davis currently putting up better stats with both on bad teams last year.


Why is it so hard for you to realize that Houston being overpaid does not make him a bad player?

The Knicks were a 37 win team. The Cavs were a 17 win team

20 ppg on a 37 win team is worth a hell of a lot more than 20 ppg on a 17 win team. 20 ppg on a 60 win team is worth more than both. Which part of this is difficult to understand? The Knicks were bad, the Cavs were worse, which means the stats cannot be directly compared as you would wish them to be. Otherwise, Jim Jackson > Ricky Davis.



> Again enough about Jefferson and I hope you dont keep citing him as an example


I will continue to use Richard Jefferson as an example as long as you keep using salary as an evaluator of talent.



> Th reason Jefferson has a high field goal percentage and can score 15 a game is because of the offense j-kidd brings in the transition.


And the reason Davis scores the most points on his team is because he takes the most shots on his team.



> Cavstalk did a good job of telling you why Davis is a better player so why not quote him and respond?


I already have.



> Ricky Davis has stuck if he was so expendable as Keith Van Horn is he would be the first to go with the arival of LeBron James but thats definitely not the case with Davis being relied upon as the focal point of the offense this season and a leader.


He is here right now because they're willing to see if they can make it work before the deadline. Cleveland has already stated that if James/Davis doesn't work then Davis is gone. Obviously they do not hold him in the same high regard that you both do.


----------



## CavsTalk

You just wasted my time by making me read that.

Your knowledge is very minimal, you keep citing 17 wins as a reason for his success as a player. You obviously know very little of basketball to say that.

As for McDyess, I didn't know if he was going to play, so I didn't discuss him. I didn't say you couldn't, you chose not too. Not me.

And you do need him to be 20/10 to be a playoff team, look what happened last year without him. He has two MAJOR KNEE surgeries, totally different from Z's foot.



> No. 1 in the payroll rankings at a tidy $85 million, and still league's best arena atmosphere, but they'll need a healthy Dice to crack our top 20 and stop folks from cracking Knicks jokes.





> Subtract McDyess, however, and the Knicks are the same soft, unathletic team that stumbled through last year. Given that he's missed most of the past two seasons, McDyess faces long odds. As a result, so do the Knicks.


You are foolish to believe you don't need him to be a 20/10 guy, you traded your best player for nothing.

Z has started one full injury free season, not even 100% still makes the All-Star team, he played a good majority the year before.

His feet are no longer a question. Feet are healable, what Mourning has, is not. He will have that forever, it will always be a problem. So that again, makes your arguement mute.

When you look at the official site and look at roster, it has an F next to Thomas. Not a C, so therefor, he is your F playing out of position at C. He isn't a C, won't be a good C and never will be an all-star C. He has a better shot than Booz?? No, he has an OK shot but that's all he does, shoots. He is too soft to bang down low, which is why the NBA knows him as a soft player. Booz however, can dunk on you both left and right handed. Has done so many times and has been on ESPN many times for those dunks, how many times has Thomas been on ESPN for his dunks?? For anything for that matter.

I dont know why I am responding to you, you keep rambling non-sense. 

But the fact of the matter is, when your boy and my boy faced each other.....defended each other as well, my boy showed your boy up. Not once, but twice. But you don't wanna talk about that, so that's ok. I mean, it must be because he is on a bad team right?? I mean, since they are so bad, they should just double Ricky right? :laugh: :laugh: 

Ricky was third in the NBA before the all-star break in 3PT%, so yes, I consider him a good shooter. This was his first full year of playing so his career 3pt #'s are mute. Houston is a good 3pt shooting, no denying that. But again, this is Ricky's first full year and he had better #'s than Houston's 8th year, 1st year. Regardless of team record, get it through your thick head.....this is the NBA.

You haven't said much outside your useless info dept. (Oh, he's on a bad team, or R Jefferson :laugh: :laugh: ) but, feel free to respond.


----------



## The True Essence

yeah boozer is way better than kurt softee thomas....................


----------



## Rashidi

> Your knowledge is very minimal, you keep citing 17 wins as a reason for his success as a player. You obviously know very little of basketball to say that.


*yawns for additional emphasis*




> I didn't say you couldn't, you chose not too. Not me.


You are aware that I'm talking to another person besides you, right?




> And you do need him to be 20/10 to be a playoff team, look what happened last year without him.


What happened last year without him? They finished tied for 9th and missed the playoffs by 5 games. They're not going to need 20/10 to win 5 more games. Especially since the 7th seed Bucks have since scrapped their team and are currently rebuilding



> You are foolish to believe you don't need him to be a 20/10 guy, you traded your best player for nothing


KVH's 16/7 isn't exactly "nothing". If that's nothing, what does that say about most of Cleveland? How biased can you be? KVH gets 16/7 and he sucks, but Davis gets 20/5/5 on ala Jim Jackson and he's a godsend? Get real. Sprewell had the worst year of his career, he wasn't the Knicks best player last year. Unless you think 16/4/4 on 40% shooting is better than 22/3/3 on 46% shooting. He couldn't guard the true SFs in the league.


----------



## Rashidi

> Has done so many times and has been on ESPN many times for those dunks, how many times has Thomas been on ESPN for his dunks??


You have officially destroyed all your credibility.


----------



## TyGuy

Apprently you wont let your death grip off the Davis putting up good numbers on a bad team argument so this is gettign ridiculous. Bringing in old players for reference when there style of play is completly different. So shouldnt houston be putting up 25+ since he is on a bad team? How about rebound or set up teamates? No doesnt do that as well as Davis either.


----------



## Rashidi

> Ricky was third in the NBA before the all-star break in 3PT%, so yes, I consider him a good shooter.



Pre-break Davis was shooting .373 from 3pt range, and he was only 41-110.

Steve Nash was .393 from 3pt range pre-break, Allan Houston was .402 pre-break, Bruce Bowen was .467 pre-break, and Wesley Person was .481 pre-break. I don't think I need to continue.



> So shouldnt houston be putting up 25+ since he is on a bad team?


Get it through your skull.

Knicks: 37 wins.

Cavs: 17 wins.

The Knicks were not even close to being as bad as Cleveland was last year. Cleveland didn't even have HALF as many wins as NY.

I would think he'd be putting up 2.5 more ppg on a 17 win team, since he'd be getting a lot more shots. He wouldn't be sharing the ball with Sprewell or Thomas anymore. Oh, wait, I forgot. Boozer's 10/7 is better than softie's 14/8.


----------



## Jmonty580

The knicks have the same team as last season except KVH instead of spree. I loved sprees intensity but his offense was WEAK, and KVH is an upgrade offensively. Ofcourse I know he is a defensive liabilty but Chaney will have to firgure out some defensive strategy to make up for that. KVH gives us more rebounds also, which we need since we were the worst rebounding team in the league last season.

The cavs got Lebron James, which is great and I wish him well and think he will do good things for that team, but asking this kid to single handedly take the worst team in the league and turn them into a playoff team in one season is rediculous. Oh yeah I forgot the cavs added kevin Olie, need I say more?

The cavs future looks bright but its based on ifs right now. The only thing the cavs can count on is more of what they did last season, which wasnt great. Even Lebron says that he just wants to improve the team over the teams record from last year. If your basing the cav being better than the knicks based on Lebrons performance, then you need to drop that because hes got to prove himself in the league first .

The knicks just missed the playoffs last year, which shows the distance between these two teams, but the knicks arent great either. Without McDyes were also looking at more of what we watched last season. As much as I would like to believe all the rumors that McDyess is practicing and is ready to play like his old self but management wont let him, we have to act as if he's not going to play this season because we all know what happened last year and the year before that. While many think Lampe who has gained some wieght and commited to playing center at 280 pounds looks good, and as much as people say sweetney will be an imeadiate help, you cant garauntee anything with rookies because they are 100% unproven in the nba.

Bottom line is that both of these teams look bad. The best the knicks can do is get a fully healthy Mcdyess and two helping rookies, which will get them in the playoffs, but still wouldnt be good enough to win the east, and definetely wouldnt win agaisnt a western team in the finals. 

The best the cavs can do is to have Miles have a breakout season and to have Lebron live up to his hype and they could be a playoff team from the east, but still wouldnt be good enough to win the east and if they did win the east they wouldnt stand a chance against any western team.

The west own basketball right now, so really the best thing for eastern teams to do is to stock up on youngs and try to stay competive. Cavs have alot to look forward to with Lebron, and so do the knicks with the addition of McDyess, sweetney, lampe, and maybe even Milos next season. With all that said, when you take out the ifs th knicks are still better than the cavs. But were really agruing over which sorry team is less sorry than the other, id say this is a pretty dumb arguement. Lets remebmer this thread and look back at it when the season starts. Then people can really talk junk.


----------



## CavsTalk

I disagree with a few things you said, but in general I agree with lets just see what happens.

Let the season start and continue it then.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

Ricky Davis is no where near the player houston is. Even if you take Ricky's crap attitude out of the comparision, Allan is still a far superior player. Allan houston is arguably the best shooter in this league. Did you see him drop 50 twice last year?? He leads the league in Free throw percentage. He constantly fights through double teams and still manages to get his shot off. Ricky davis on the other hand is a turn over machine ( 3.51 PER GAME), and takes way to many shots.

Comparing Ricky Davis to Allan is like comparing Shaq to SAR.Ricky Davis has crap character, that's why no one wants anything to do with him. He is a human trainwreck noo one wants to get their handprints on. There is no way he plays 35+ minutes this year, no way he puts up 20+ shots per game, and no way Paul Silas let's him be " leader "

Your just silly if you think Kurt Thomas is soft, he is probably the toughest post player in the east.

Also, if you think Ricky and not Z will be the focus of your offense, well you have a rude awakening come for you this season. Do you know how much his coach likes him?? Why are so delusional, your team has no chemistry whatsoever, heck they don't even have a game plan, they are NEW PEOPLE LEARNING A NEW SYSTEM. 
There is no way, your team is going to the playoffs, the have rookies a new system to learn, an uncertain lineup, and injury prone players ( Wagner and Z).


The knicks have all the talent to get the playoffs in the east, which they barely missed last year. If Mcdyess comes back, there isn't even a doubt that we make them. You need to do some research on your team, it seems like you don't know jack about them.


----------



## CavsTalk

Won't take me long to eat up that post.

Allan Houston has been on the trading block for two years, teams that offered: 0.

Ricky Davis alone had 3 teams this off-season make offers for him.

The Knicks don't even want Houston. Far surperior?? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Wow, you're a joke. Ricky had better stats in every category. When they faced each other, Ricky gave him the business. Fights through double teams blah blah to get a shot off blah blah. LOL!!! He doesn't scare anyone. Nobody double teams Allan Houston. He is one-deminsional. No need to double him. Shooter. That's it. Can't play D, won't pass the rock, won't goto the rack. Did you see Ricky drop 37 on Houston????

Get a clue.

The only trainwreck here, is the Knicks basketball team. No direction, no talent, no where to go but down the standings again. However, the Cavs have youth, a good coach, and nowhere to go but up.

I mean, don't take my word for it.......Marc Stien said it best in his rankings.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>CavsTalk</b>!
> Won't take me long to eat up that post.
> 
> Allan Houston has been on the trading block for two years, teams that offered: 0.
> 
> Ricky Davis alone had 3 teams this off-season make offers for him.
> 
> The Knicks don't even want Houston. Far surperior?? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Wow, you're a joke. Ricky had better stats in every category. When they faced each other, Ricky gave him the business. Fights through double teams blah blah to get a shot off blah blah. LOL!!! He doesn't scare anyone. Nobody double teams Allan Houston. He is one-deminsional. No need to double him. Shooter. That's it. Can't play D, won't pass the rock, won't goto the rack. Did you see Ricky drop 37 on Houston????
> 
> Get a clue.
> 
> The only trainwreck here, is the Knicks basketball team. No direction, no talent, no where to go but down the standings again. However, the Cavs have youth, a good coach, and nowhere to go but up.
> 
> I mean, don't take my word for it.......Marc Stien said it best in his rankings.



:laugh: 

I now know you don't know jack about basketball or the cavs. It's so funny how you just keep digging yourself deeper and deeper. Thanks for being the comedy section of the knicks board, things were slow around here.

Allan Houston been on the trading block for two years??? Only because of his contract, I think you're a bit confused, as last year was the only year Ricky Davis hasn't been on the block. That is he hasn't BEEN traded.If Allan had Ricky's contract no one would trade him, the point being that Ricky doesn't have the talent for anyone to consider overpaying him. 

Allan Houston has been on how many Olympic squads, yeah your right he is one dimensional and nobody fears him, thats why his scoring average goes up nearly every year he is in the NBA. Thats why he had so many 40 point games last year, and two 50 point games. Saying Houston never takes it to the rack or doesn't pass, means you have never seen the man play.

Saying he never gets double teamed, well, c'mon man there is no way your dumb enough to think a team's first option in offense never faces a double team is just flat out stupid. Where's your head at?


But the stupidest I mean stupidest thing you said, was that Ricky Davis was better than houston in all stat categories. I mean, it's like you can't even read or something . Jesus christ do you know about NBA.com??? How about ESPN.com. Man do some research before you open your mouth.

Listen up and learn kid, this is how you destroy someone's post. Next time trying looking up something before typing. Then you won't look so foolish in front of people.

Ready for your post to be destroyed ?

Allan Houston 
New York Knicks 
Position: G 
Height: 6-6 Weight: 200 
College: Tennessee '93 
Player file | Team stats 

2002-03 Statistics 
PPG 22.5 
RPG 2.8 
APG 2.7 
SPG .66 
BPG .09 
FG% .445 
FT% .919 
3P% .396 
MPG 37.9 
Versus
Ricky Davis 
Cleveland Cavaliers 
Position: G 
Height: 6-7 Weight: 195 
College: Iowa '01 
Player file | Team stats 

2002-03 Statistics 
PPG 20.6 
RPG 4.9 
APG 5.5 
SPG 1.58 
BPG .46 
FG% .410 
FT% .748 
3P% .363 
MPG 39.6 


Looks in PPG, and nearly every shooting percentage he drastically loses to houston. He also beats him in FGA yet somehow scores less and has a smaller shooting percentage and destroys him in turnovers per game  ( those are bad btw I know you don't know that.) You should also note that Ricky played more time than Allan.

:laugh: :laugh: 




Seriously man are you really stupid enough to even argue this or are you just trying to stir things up. I honestly don't understand how you can take yourself seriously. Your posts are just goofy.


Like most people who fight a losing battle you refused to respond to any of the points I made in previous post. Opting instead to go on the attack because you knew you couldn't defend yourself. So instead of giving this board a sampling of diarrehea of the keyboard, go back and address the points I made in my prior post. But, then again that's the type of response I would expect from someone to afraid to let people rate their posts.

You know the ones that say your teams key players are injury prone, how you are a bunch of rookies learning a new system, and how your team has such little chemistry they're trying to choke each other in practice.

Just because Scott Layden messed our team up don't ever confuse us as being less talented then teams at the bottom of the barrel like yours. The majority of players on our bench, would start for your team.



I probably wrote to much for you to read in one sitting. It's cool you just keep living in your Ricky Davis fantasy land, by the way didn't he and his pals lose to the And1 team?


----------



## CavsTalk

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> 
> I now know you don't know jack about basketball or the cavs. It's so funny how you just keep digging yourself deeper and deeper. Thanks for being the comedy section of the knicks board, things were slow around here.
> 
> Allan Houston been on the trading block for two years??? Only because of his contract, I think you're a bit confused, as last year was the only year Ricky Davis hasn't been on the block. If Allan had Ricky's contract no one would trade him, the point being that Ricky doesn't have the talent for anyone to consider overpaying him.


But he was on the block.....regardless. Thank you. If he had good game, he wouldn't be traded. If he earned his pay, he wouldn't be traded. If he wasn't one deminsional he wouldn't be traded. Bottom line,he isn't any of that.....so he is on the block and nobody wants him.


> Allan Houston has been on how many Olympic squads, yeah your right he is one dimensional and nobody fears him, thats why his scoring average goes up nearly every year he is in the NBA. Thats why he had so many 40 point games last year, and two 50 point games. Saying Houston never takes it to the rack or doesn't pass, means you have never seen the man play.
> 
> Saying he never gets double teamed, well, c'mon man there is no way your dumb enough to think a team's first option in offense never faces a double team is just flat out stupid. Where's your head at?


I mean, you tell me to look at NBA.com, you go look. His scoring avg does go up every year, it goes up, down up down up down. He is in-consistant. He dropped 50 twice, nice....he never had a game last year where he scored in the 40s. 

He is soft......never gets more than 3 RBG. Never passes the ball, his career high for assists is 3 PG?? LOL, wow. There are 4-5s that have better stats than that. Then steals...He has never avg. more than one a game....he is horrible at D. I mean, if he is so much better than Ricky, he had a tough time guarding him. I mean, he dropped 37 points, 11 boards, 9 AST, 2 steals
Houston's two game total vs Ricky: 42 points, 6 boards, 3 AST....Ricky in one game had better stats than Houston. Ricky also dropped 24 on him in the other game. He is a great shooter though...15 for 38 (39%). (43% for ricky).

Ricky just had his first year starting....he is going to do even better this year. He actually has a real coach and now can assemble the talent around him. He will make Houston look even dumber than he did last year. He may pull a Nash and just dunk over Houston.....if he doesn't run out of the way. Dude never plays D.


> But the stupidest I mean stupidest thing you said, was that Ricky Davis was better than houston in all stat categories. I mean, it's like you can't even read or something . Jesus christ do you know about NBA.com??? How about ESPN.com. Man do some research before you open your mouth.
> 
> Listen up and learn kid, this is how you destroy someone's post. Next time trying looking up something before typing. Then you won't look so foolish in front of people.
> 
> Ready for your post to be destroyed ?
> 
> Allan Houston
> New York Knicks
> Position: G
> Height: 6-6 Weight: 200
> College: Tennessee '93
> Player file | Team stats
> 
> 2002-03 Statistics
> PPG 22.5
> RPG 2.8
> APG 2.7
> SPG .66
> BPG .09
> FG% .445
> FT% .919
> 3P% .396
> MPG 37.9
> Versus
> Ricky Davis
> Cleveland Cavaliers
> Position: G
> Height: 6-7 Weight: 195
> College: Iowa '01
> Player file | Team stats
> 
> 2002-03 Statistics
> PPG 20.6
> RPG 4.9
> APG 5.5
> SPG 1.58
> BPG .46
> FG% .410
> FT% .748
> 3P% .363
> MPG 39.6
> 
> 
> Looks in PPG, and nearly every shooting percentage he drastically loses to houston. He also beats him in FGA yet somehow scores less and has a smaller shooting percentage and destroys him in turnovers per game  ( those are bad btw I know you don't know that.) You should also note that Ricky played more time than Allan.


LOL!!! Wow, Im destroyed. Get serious. Allan played more than Ricky?? Hmm.. 2min more a game really makes a big difference. Get serious kid. On top of that. Allan started all 82 games, compared to 76 of Ricky.

Assists, steals, blocks, rebounds everything that makes a TEAM PLAYER. Ricky is better at. He is the better scorer. Houston shoots better, but when he lives and dies outside, no wonder. Ricky also gets to the free throw line. For being such a great FT shooter, he is too soft to goto the rack and get to the line to make himself a better player. He shoots better than Ricky, that's all you said right there. But for a 10 year vet who is known as a shooter, be better. But everything else, belongs to Ricky. There is a reason why people want Ricky and not Allan, no, not because of money......because Ricky is the better player. He isn't a 1D graphic. You got the SNES which was a good system, but it isn't anything to the XBOX....keep it real for a minute here, Houston is bad. :yes: And ricky is better, :yes:. You destroyed me?? lol, hahahaha :laugh: oh yah, good job there buddy.



> Just because Scott Layden messed our team up don't ever confuse us as being less talented then teams at the bottom of the barrel like yours. The majority of players on our bench, would start for your team.
> 
> I probably wrote to much for you to read in one sitting. It's cool you just keep living in your Ricky Davis fantasy land, by the way didn't he and his pals lose to the And1 team?


\

Wow, you are dumber than what I thought.

Let's go through your team and I will put your best player in each spot...
C:Lampe; wouldn't see the floor in Cleveland. Backup minutes.
C:Thomas; backup.
PF:McDyess; dude can't even walk, he won't even play til the all-star break.
SF-KVH: lol...nobody wants this guy except the Knicks. He wouldn't start over Lebron.
SG-Houston, already said how bad he is. He wouldn't start over Davis.
PG-Your PGs have sucked for the last 10 years, the only good PG you have doesn't even want to play for your crap team so he stays in Europe. Wouldn't start over Miles.

But yet, your bench would start at Cleveland. Get real.

In case you missed who the better team is.......go read those power rankings again.


----------



## Rashidi

> But he was on the block.....regardless. Thank you. If he had good game, he wouldn't be traded.


Uh, good players get traded, genius. Jason Kidd and Stephon Marbury are good players, and they've been traded twice in their careers. Both have been traded two more times than Allan Houston.

If the only players that got traded were bad players, then there wouldn't be trades at all, since teams don't make trades to get worse.

I would say that your perception of the NBA trade market is delusional, at best.



> I mean, you tell me to look at NBA.com, you go look. His scoring avg does go up every year, it goes up, down up down up down. He is in-consistant. He dropped 50 twice, nice....he never had a game last year where he scored in the 40s.


This could be the most laughable arguement I've ever seen. Houston is inconsistent because he didn't score 40 points in a game? Including the 50 point games, he had 13 games where he scored 30+ points. In comparison, Ricky only had 8 games where he scored 30+ points. For his 53 point game, he shot 62% from the field, and he shot 52% in his 50 point game. 

Houston gets his points taking fewer shots than your boy Ricky.

Not that Davis' stats mean anything, since he got them jacking shots on a 17 win team, but Davis had three 40 point games. I guess that makes him "more consistent" since he had ZERO 50 point games. Nice logic. Oh, and those "40 point games" weren't exactly 40 point games. Two games were OVERTIME games, where Ricky got 50+ minutes. Had they been regulation 48 minute games, it's unlikely he would have broken 40 in each game. Houston took 25 shots to score 50 points. Ricky took 33 shots to score 45. Do the math on that one, hot shot.

Speaking of consistency, or a lack thereof, Ricky shot less than 40% in THREE months of the season. He shot below 40% in the months of January, February, and April. What a blue collar mark of consistency.



> I mean, if he is so much better than Ricky, he had a tough time guarding him. I mean, he dropped 37 points, 11 boards, 9 AST, 2 steals


Sorry, but one game does not a season make. There are 29 teams in the league, so it really doesn't matter what Ricky Davis' padded stats are in 2 games against the Knicks. Besides, LATRELL SPREWELL would more than likely guard Davis, not Houston.

I notice how there were FOUR games the Knicks played the Cavs. How come you only mention 2? Oh, I see.  Because Ricky missed a game, and the Cavs were blown out by 32. Houston scored 29 in 32 minutes on 9-15 shooting, 5-10 on 3's. Why did Ricky miss the game? HE WAS SUSPENDED BY THE TEAM. What a guy, what a guy. Clubhouse Cancer? Nah...

The other game you neglect to mention was another loss by Cleveland. Houston scored 25, Davis scored 24. Houston had 4 rebounds and 4 assists, while Davis had 4 rebounds and 1 assist. Houston scored 8 points in the 4th quarter to pull NY away from Cleveland.

You didn't... forget about that game, did you?

Of course, that's not to say Davis had a bad game. He shot 50%. Prior to that, he went 27 Well, at least he's consistent.

Next time you try to make an arguement, you'll be a lot more credible if you bring BOTH sides to the table, instead of just one side (your own biased view).



> Ricky just had his first year starting....he is going to do even better this year. He actually has a real coach and now can assemble the talent around him.


That's the funniest thing you've written all day. They aren't building the team around Ricky Davis. Silas isn't retarded. He already had problems with Derrick Coleman, he's not going to deal with Ricky's antics. Ricky will be gone midseason if he's a hindrance to the development of the rest of the team.



> Dude never plays D.


I don't see Ricky Davis up for the all-defensive team.



> He will make Houston look even dumber than he did last year


Yeah, what a dumb looking 22.5 ppg. What was Ricky's FG% again?



> LOL!!! Wow, Im destroyed. Get serious. Allan played more than Ricky?? Hmm.. 2min more a game really makes a big difference. Get serious kid.


Thank you for proving your lack of statistic comprehension. Two minutes is 120 seconds. A possession is at least 24 seconds long. You can fit at least 6 shots into 2 minutes. And since Davis is jacking up all the shots on his team, that means at least a shot or two more in those 2 mins. And since a FG is 2 points, well, I'd ask you to do the math, but you haven't been very effective at that so far.



> Assists, steals, blocks, rebounds everything that makes a TEAM PLAYER.


Stats don't make someone a team player. Attitude does.



> You got the SNES which was a good system, but it isn't anything to the XBOX....


Actually, the Super Nintendo is vastly superior to the XBox. Shows how much you know about video games.



> keep it real for a minute here, Houston is bad. And ricky is better, . You destroyed me?? lol, hahahaha oh yah, good job there buddy.


Why are 95% of Cleveland fans delusional fanboys that think they know about basketball? And why weren't there any Cleveland fans until Lebron came along?



> C:Lampe; wouldn't see the floor in Cleveland. Backup minutes


HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA. Why don't you say that on the NBA board and see how fast you get laughed at? Lampe > Mihm.



> C:Thomas; backup


Thomas >>> Boozer.



> PF:McDyess; dude can't even walk, he won't even play til the all-star break.


McDyess = Ilgauskas



> SF-KVH: lol...nobody wants this guy except the Knicks. He wouldn't start over Lebron.


Yeah, you're right, who would want 16/7? Wouldn't that have been 3rd on your pathetic team in scoring? Van Horn > Miles



> PG-Your PGs have sucked for the last 10 years, the only good PG you have doesn't even want to play for your crap team so he stays in Europe. Wouldn't start over Miles.


Howard Eisley and Charlie Ward > Kevin Ollie
Howard Eisley and Charlie Ward > JR Bremer
Howard Eisley and Charlie Ward > Darius Miles

Eisley and Ward are among the leaders in A/T ratio, and 3pt%, both categories Miles is among the WORST in. Sorry, but name recognition doesn't make you a good PG. It's comical to think that he will be a successful PG. He's not even half of Lamar Odom.



> But yet, your bench would start at Cleveland. Get real.


Ward would start at PG, and Harrington and Weatherspoon both would have started over Boozer last year, being that he was a 2nd round pick. It's hard to think that Michael Sweetney, taken with the 10th pick, would also not start over Boozer. Lampe was also projected to go lottery, it is also hard to think he wouldn't be starting over Boozer by the end of the season. What does Boozer do that seperates himself from any of these guys? Give Popeye Jones 25 minutes and he'll give you almost the same numbers Boozer had. In fact, in 24 minutes with Washington, Popeye was 7/7. In 25 mins, Boozer was 10/7 on the worst team in basketball.



> In case you missed who the better team is.......go read those power rankings again.


Those power rankings also ranked Seattle 27th. In other words, they mean jack.

For someone who says "get real" all the time, one would hope that you'd apply the same attitude to yourself. The Cavs were a 17 win team last year. Their only significant acquisitions were a high school rookie, and a half decent coach. The coach will add more wins than the high schooler, and the teams "star" player is a clubhouse cancer that the coach wants as far away from the high schooler as possible. The Knicks were 20 games better, and they have not had any significant losses. In fact, they added 2 quality players in the draft, and have McDyess returning from injury, and may be signing Dikembe Mutombo. Saying McDyess will never contribute is like saying Ilgauskas would never contribute. You can't say if he will or won't. McDyess is expected ready if not for the season opener, then within the month of November, you might want to read some NBA news (read as: the other 28 teams after Cleveland) before you say January.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

Thanks for clearing up whether or not you really are clueless about this league. Let me explain a few things to you so you can not respond to them, but instead type the same crap over and over and over again your posts, in a teenage-like attempt to be right.

You caught me before my edit, but yes Houston had no 40 point games last year. Just a couple of near 40 point games ( 37 and 39) I was wrong Ricky Davis was on the trading block last year too .

Now onto you:



> But he was on the block.....regardless. Thank you. If he had good game, he wouldn't be traded. If he earned his pay, he wouldn't be traded. If he wasn't one deminsional he wouldn't be traded. Bottom line,he isn't any of that.....so he is on the block and nobody wants him.


Listen very carefully. Ricky Davis by<b> your own</b> logic, is one dimensional and nobody wants him. Why you ask? because every year he has been in the league except his rookie year 5 seasons ago. In most cases he was traded. 3 different teams, 5 different seasons.

There is more to NBA and ESPN.com then stats, maybe you should click around a little and read, or if you can't understand all those big numbers, have someone read it to you. Then you can stop making self-defeating arguments, and people will stop laughing at you ( you can take this principle and apply it in real life too.)




> I mean, you tell me to look at NBA.com, you go look. His scoring avg does go up every year, it goes up, down up down up down. He is in-consistant. He dropped 50 twice, nice....he never had a game last year where he scored in the 40s.


When Allan houston plays ~35 minutes a season for the Knicks ( starters minutes ) his scoring average has almost always gone up. In fact it has gone up for three seasons in a row. He actually dropped 53 then 50 he also " dropped" 39 36 and 37. 




> He is soft......never gets more than 3 RBG. Never passes the ball, his career high for assists is 3 PG?? LOL, wow. There are 4-5s that have better stats than that. Then steals...He has never avg. more than one a game....he is horrible at D.


Why oh why did you right this son? The argument is now over. You just killed yourself!

You are saying houston is a bad defender yet every time he went to cleveland his steals per game went up. Not only that but he stole the ball from your player 1 ,2 and 3 times. For a player that averages .71 steals a game that's pretty bad. Now if he does that to your team, what does that say about your team.



> I mean, if he is so much better than Ricky, he had a tough time guarding him. I mean, he dropped 37 points, 11 boards, 9 AST, 2 steals Houston's two game total vs Ricky: 42 points, 6 boards, 3 AST....Ricky in one game had better stats than Houston Ricky also dropped 24 on him in the other game. He is a great shooter though...15 for 38 (39%). (43% for ricky).



That's the game where he threw the errant pass off of his own backboard in attempt to get the triple double right? 

Just for the record his 37 point night where he played 52 minutes, he put up 34 shots. That's right! 34 shots and he scored 37 points, That's 38% shooting. Which just so you know is horrible, he also managed to keep his turnovers at 4. 
If that performance doesn't scream suck to you you should probably stop arguing, and get some help in figuring this whole thing out.

To help you compare in putting up 53 points Allan Houston shot the ball only 29 times, with a 62% in FG's and turned the ball over 0 times.



> Ricky just had his first year starting....he is going to do even better this year. He actually has a real coach and now can assemble the talent around him. He will make Houston look even dumber than he did last year. He may pull a Nash and just dunk over Houston.....if he doesn't run out of the way. Dude never plays D.


His coach, doesn't like him, and so therefore he won't play him as much. If Houston doesn't play defense, why then does he come over to your team and go steal-crazy?




> LOL!!! Wow, Im destroyed. Get serious. Allan played more than Ricky?? Hmm.. 2min more a game really makes a big difference. Get serious kid. On top of that. Allan started all 82 games, compared to 76 of Ricky.


I am not trying to be funny or make you look foolish, like I have been. I am being serious, if you are mentally or visually handicapped, please PM and let me know and I'll stop. I am serious.

What I wrote was, Ricky played more than Allan. 

Again, if you had bothered to go to ESPN and check, you would notice that in his four highest scoring games he averaged ~48 minutes a game. The point of all this is that it takes him many more shots and much more floor time, to be as prolific as Houston. He won't get those shot oppurtunities or those minutes again.




> Assists, steals, blocks, rebounds everything that makes a TEAM PLAYER. Ricky is better at. He is the better scorer. Houston shoots better, but when he lives and dies outside, no wonder. Ricky also gets to the free throw line. For being such a great FT shooter, he is too soft to goto the rack and get to the line to make himself a better player. He shoots better than Ricky, that's all you said right there. But for a 10 year vet who is known as a shooter, be better.


No, see above for how he is the inferior scorer. Houston gets to the free throw line more than enough times. He scores better than ricky who by the way is a 5 year vet. Want to know why he is shooting down zone's instead of taking it to the rack each time? 

The reason is Houston is a Team player and wants to win. Not pad his stats with childish antics.

Now the quote about the Gaming console systems in funny but in no way analagous. If your trying to make some type of tech comparision, ricky is joptionpane while Allan is a 3-d vector model.

If you weren't let me provide you with another analogy that might help you understand what's going on.

Its an old western shoot out; You are the new kid on the block with the big mouth, and the lack of skill, I am the veteran whose seen more than his fair share of people like you.

We exchange words then draw, I shoot you 50 times in your head, you shoot yourself 50 times in the foot.



> Let's go through your team and I will put your best player in each spot...
> C:Lampe; wouldn't see the floor in Cleveland. Backup minutes.
> C:Thomas; backup.
> PF:McDyess; dude can't even walk, he won't even play til the all-star break.
> SF-KVH: lol...nobody wants this guy except the Knicks. He wouldn't start over Lebron.
> SG-Houston, already said how bad he is. He wouldn't start over Davis.
> PG-Your PGs have sucked for the last 10 years, the only good PG you have doesn't even want to play for your crap team so he stays in Europe. Wouldn't start over Miles.


Darius miles the point guard??? HAHAHHAHAHA

SG- we all know whose better now

SF- Hmm lebron james the high school rookie or a guy who averaged 16 and 7 last year?

PF: When Mcdyess comes back, he is better than anyone on your team.

C: Yes we are going to start out 18 year old rookie who is just learning how to play in an american system. Get the roster right you goofball, Kurt Thomas is the starting center. You know Kurt Thomas right? He is the softee who averaged over 20 points and 2.3 blocks against your team last year.

Just so you know, stats aren't everything even though they clearly prove which player is better in this case. Let's just go by team wins. How many more games did my best players win versus your best players?

You have two choices:

1. You can wait for the regular season and pray when our teams meet.
2. You can keep shooting yourself in the foot and getting verbally smacked around.

The choice is yours kid, what's it gonna be?


_edited to be less antagonistic_


----------



## CavsTalk

Im glad you all wasted your time......because the Cavs are the better team. Get over it. The higher people in the NBA think so and I think so....

Love the Cavs baby.....wooo..

When you are at home watching the Cavs in the playoffs this year.....I will bring this thread back and laugh in all your faces.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>CavsTalk</b>!
> Im glad you all wasted your time......because the Cavs are the better team. Get over it. The higher people in the NBA think so and I think so....
> 
> Love the Cavs baby.....wooo..
> 
> When you are at home watching the Cavs in the playoffs this year.....I will bring this thread back and laugh in all your faces.


We didn't waste our time, we had or at least I had fun with you, but now I am done with you, smart to take my advice and get out.

Mark Stein doesn't work for the NBA, hahaha you know that much at least right? 

I am glad you love your cavs, just don't let that love turning you into a blind fool... oh wait.

So when I am watching the Knicks in the Playoffs, I won't bring this thread up, in fact I'll have long forgotten about the cavs and their 24 win season.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>CavsTalk</b>!
> Im glad you all wasted your time......because the Cavs are the better team. Get over it. The higher people in the NBA think so and I think so....
> 
> Love the Cavs baby.....wooo..
> 
> When you are at home watching the Cavs in the playoffs this year.....I will bring this thread back and laugh in all your faces.


We didn't waste our time, we had or at least I had fun with you, but now I am done with you, smart to take my advice and get out.

Mark Stein doesn't work for the NBA, hahaha you know that much at least right? 

I am glad you love your cavs, just don't let that love turning you into a blind fool... oh wait.

So when I am watching the Knicks in the Playoffs, I won't bring this thread up, in fact I'll have long forgotten about the cavs and their 24 win season.


----------



## Rashidi

PWNED.

Oh, and your beloved Mark Stein wrote this column.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=1627909

Mark Stein writes...



> Silas sees Davis, not LeBron, as the Cavaliers' offensive cornerstone for the *moment*, even while admitting that *he and Davis didn't mesh so well in Charlotte.*





> *Plus it figures to take at least a season, and probably longer, for the Cavs to learn how to win.* They're media darlings now because of James, but all the losing it took to get him with the No. 1 overall pick established a defeatist culture.





> "He's going to get his chances, but Ricky is going to be the focal point of this team. Ricky's more established. But cream always rises. If LeBron has it right away, it's going to come out."





> *Truth is, though, there are more questions about Davis being able to handle an emerging LeBron* than LeBron starting his NBA life as a third option behind Davis and Ilgauskas. James' passing and unselfishness at the high school level, never playing with anyone even close to his talent stratosphere, *adds weight to the belief that Davis will be a much bigger project.*


Make sure you don't forget to read those parts, since you take everything Mark Stein writes as gospel.


----------



## Rashidi

John Starks vs Ricky Davis

Starks 93-94
19.0 ppg
3.1 rpg
5.9 apg
1.6 spg
0.1 bpg
3.1 tpg
.420 fg%
34.8 mpg

Davis 02-03
20.6 ppg
4.9 rpg
5.5 apg
1.5 spg
0.4 bpg
3.5 tpg
39.6 mpg
.410 fg%

Ha ha, Davis wasn't even better than John Starks...

Starks played 5 fewer minutes per game and was the 2nd option on his team, not the first. He had a much better A/T ratio, and even put up a higher FG%. Had Starks played those extra 5 mins, his stats would be even better. Most importantly, Starks numbers were for a 57 win first place team that went to the finals, not a 17 win junk team that played a lot of garbage time minutes.

Of course, I expect this to go ignored...


----------



## CavsTalk

All this while the Knicks get stomped in their first pre-season game the Cavs cruise to a W.

Have a nice season. :laugh:


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>CavsTalk</b>!
> 
> 
> All this while the Knicks get stomped in their first pre-season game the Cavs cruise to a W.
> 
> Have a nice season. :laugh:



The preseason means a lot, remember last year when you beat the lakers, and then Dmiles promised a playoff spot?


Look how well you did then!


----------



## Rashidi

> All this while the Knicks get stomped in their first pre-season game the Cavs cruise to a W.


If you were paying attention, or knew anything about basketball to begin with, you'd have noticed that the Jazz beat the Mavericks yesterday.

Preseason is not the regular season. Veterans don't play 30 mins in exhibition games, they do in the regular season.

You also might notice that Allan Houston and Antonio McDyess did not play, just like plenty of other players are not playing in preseason games.

Although one thing I'm sure we'll see more of in the regular season are games where Lebron has 3 turnovers and 4-12 shooting. And no 7 assist games, since he won't be at PG.


----------



## CavsTalk

It's not the season you are right, but the Knicks got smacked around......a sign of things to come.

As for Lebron, seeing on how he is 18, we will probably see a couple more of those games. it won't take him long to get adjusted to the NBA and dominate.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>CavsTalk</b>!
> It's not the season you are right, but the Knicks got smacked around......a sign of things to come.


We didn't get "smacked" around why do you come here and keep posting this foolish crap, do you think anyone takes you seriously?




> As for Lebron, seeing on how he is 18, we will probably see a couple more of those games. it won't take him long to get adjusted to the NBA and dominate.


HAHHAHAAHAHA only a couple games til Lebrons domination of the NBA begins! He'll follow in the footsteps of all those other great NBA 18-19 dominate year old players.


I am sorry we have been so hard on you. You were right and we were all wrong, so I got together with the rest of the Knicksboard, and we decided to offer you an oppurtunity. Not just any oppurtunity, an oppurtunity to make some SERIOUS cash. P.M. for details on this secret and exclusive money making oppurtunity! I guarantee in a year or two you will be LIVING like a king!

I can't go into details here but, it involves you and a piece of the Brooklyn Bridge, that's all I can say, PM me for details!


----------



## Rashidi

Lebron James, exhibition game 2
6 points
3 rebounds
3 assists
3 turnovers
30 minutes

I am sure many more performances like that will come.


----------



## TyGuy

He only took 7 shots and clearly wasnt looking to be a dominant scorer. In the past two games he hasnt even made a trip to the free throw line. He had 7 assits in his first game and still maged ot get 8 points while mainly focussing on finding his teamates and setting them up. Very good for an 18 year old rookie...


----------



## Rashidi

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1636523

Cleveland Cavaliers: It didn't take long for the Ricky Davis trade rumors to start following the NBA Draft when the Cavs selected LeBron James with the first overall pick.

*Critics wondered whether Davis and James could coexist because Davis is often viewed as a selfish player*. Davis was also the only bright spot on a team that won only 17 games last season. Now, Davis will have to share the spotlight with a rookie. Davis doesn't project any problems with the media machine surrounding James nor does he have a problem sharing some of the scoring.


----------



## CavsTalk

And?

2-0


----------



## Rashidi

2-0? You mean it's November already? Gee whiz.


----------



## CavsTalk

I still dont get ur post, what was that supposed to mean???


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>CavsTalk</b>!
> I still dont get ur post, what was that supposed to mean???



I think he means the regular season hasn't started yet.

In related news how about them bucks!!


Imagine the uber cavs getting torched for a double double by none other than the windmill Dan Gadzuric.


Wow and they're ten spots below you on the power rankings!


----------



## TyGuy

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1636523
> 
> Cleveland Cavaliers: It didn't take long for the Ricky Davis trade rumors to start following the NBA Draft when the Cavs selected LeBron James with the first overall pick.
> 
> *Critics wondered whether Davis and James could coexist because Davis is often viewed as a selfish player*. Davis was also the only bright spot on a team that won only 17 games last season. Now, Davis will have to share the spotlight with a rookie. Davis doesn't project any problems with the media machine surrounding James nor does he have a problem sharing some of the scoring.


In case you didnt realise it all those rumors were made by the media. The cavs management hasnt shown any signs of being displeased with Davis and look to keep him around, his contract is also very cap friendly.


----------



## CavsTalk

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> In related news how about them bucks!!
> 
> 
> Imagine the uber cavs getting torched for a double double by none other than the windmill Dan Gadzuric.


The Cavs lose by 6 to drop their only loss so far this pre-season and you react like you won the NBA finals. Torched, i like those choice of words because the Knicks.....the Knicks.....well the Knicks have yet to win.

They are 0-4 and they are getting man handled.

Losing by; 18, 9, 19, and 7 respectively.

Just getting ready for the season......

On a side note, the Cavs are still ranked higher than the Knicks in the power rankings.


----------



## Rashidi

> Losing by; 18, 9, 19, and 7 respectively.


Playing without their best 2 players in all 4 games. Which part of that are you failing to realize?

What I find funny is that you are vehemently posting here at the Knicks board, but are absent at the Cavs board, where all the other Cavs fans are far more realistic about the Cavs this season.


----------



## CavsTalk

I only talk here because you reply. You give me reason to reply.

I got better things to do than post about the Cavs, but when you talk un-truthful with false statements, pretty much BS, I will reply.

I would take your thoughts into consideration, but you guys are getting smacked around. One of our one of our top players is out and another significant player but we aren't getting smacked around.

Yes, I know it's pre-season and it doesn't mean anything, but your team is getting abused and embarrassed. :yes:


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>CavsTalk</b>!
> I only talk here because you reply. You give me reason to reply.
> 
> I got better things to do than post about the Cavs, but when you talk un-truthful with false statements, pretty much BS, I will reply.
> 
> I would take your thoughts into consideration, but you guys are getting smacked around. One of our one of our top players is out and another significant player but we aren't getting smacked around.
> 
> Yes, I know it's pre-season and it doesn't mean anything, but your team is getting abused and embarrassed. :yes:


Just remember your team went undefeated last year, take those preseason victories and hold them tight, because your not going to see a lot of W's this year, despite your delusions.

If he talks untruthful with false statements, doesn't that make his statements truthful?

Sort of like a Gay Homosexual.


----------



## CavsTalk

Yeah, sure does buddy  

There is a reason why your team is below ours.


----------



## Rashidi

> There is a reason why your team is below ours.


...which is?

There are a lot more reputable sources than Mark Stein. I'm not sure why he even does the rankings, because 90% of the people that read them disagree with him every week. The rankings at hoopshype.com have the Knicks one spot above the Cavs.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

Hey your team belows ours okay!

GET IT IT's PHONETIC SAY IT FAst

NOW SAY IT FASt while Punching yourself in the face.

Do you hear the difference?


----------



## Rashidi

Lets check out other things GMS voted on.

Who is the best international player in the NBA? 
Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas 87.5% 
Pau Gasol, Memphis 7.5% 
Peja Stojakovic, Sacramento 5.0 

That means 12.5% of the NBAs GMs don't know what they are talking about.

Who will win Rookie of the Year? 
LeBron James, Cleveland 81.0% 
Carmelo Anthony, Denver 19.0% 

It is curious that GMs know that little about 18 year old NBA players. Then again, they are so infatuated with them they are probably willing to look past certain things. I also wonder if this survey came BEFORE Lebron was stinking up exhibition games and airballing shots?

Which active player will make the best head coach someday? 
Avery Johnson, Golden State 33.3% 
Mark Jackson 28.6% 
Eric Snow, Philadelphia 9.5% 
Others receiving votes: Steve Smith; Karl Malone, L.A. Lakers; Jason Kidd, New Jersey; Michael Curry, Toronto; Darrell Armstrong, New Orleans

I am very curious to know who didn't vote for AJ and Jax, since it is practically a given that both will be coaches one day.



LeBron James Which player acquisition will make the biggest impact? 
LeBron James, Cleveland 35.0% 
Gary Payton, L.A. Lakers 20.0% 
K. Malone, L.A.; A. Mourning, N.J. 10.0% 
Others receiving votes: Latrell Sprewell, Minnesota; Brad Miller, Sacramento; Antawn Jamison, Dallas; Jake Tsakalidis, Memphis; Jermaine O'Neal, Indiana (re-signed) 

I think this says it all. When Lebron is getting more votes than GP and Malone combined, you know that GMs salivate over 18 year old rookies.

The fact that Jake Tsakalidis appears on this list is further proof that some NBA GMs don't have a clue in terms of talent evaluation.


----------



## CavsTalk

All that trash talk about Lebron, you still think that???

Allan Houston, who is better than Ricky Davis right??  ....shot more shots than he scored. Terrible team player, as showed tonight. Soft, as showed with 3 boards. He treats the paint like it is a disease, doesn't go anywhere near it. Ricky Davis by the way had 16 points (on about half the shots Houston had), oh yeh...7 boards and 8 assists too.

Your soft frontcourt of Kurt Thomas and Motumbo got ate alive by every single person that was down there. Mihm 19, Boozer 15, Z, 13 and even Diop had his way 6 boards and 2 blocks. The Cavs outrebounded your team by 15...lol, what a joke.

All this without two key players for the Cavs, Miles and Wagner.

The Cavaliers will eat the East up, just have probs with the West (team depth, will be helped with Newble back). As the Knicks just show they are a bad team.

Just thought Id show you this, lol..haha

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>CavsTalk</b>!
> All that trash talk about Lebron, you still think that???
> 
> Allan Houston, who is better than Ricky Davis right??  ....shot more shots than he scored. Terrible team player, as showed tonight. Soft, as showed with 3 boards. He treats the paint like it is a disease, doesn't go anywhere near it. Ricky Davis by the way had 16 points (on about half the shots Houston had), oh yeh...7 boards and 8 assists too.
> 
> Your soft frontcourt of Kurt Thomas and Motumbo got ate alive by every single person that was down there. Mihm 19, Boozer 15, Z, 13 and even Diop had his way 6 boards and 2 blocks. The Cavs outrebounded your team by 15...lol, what a joke.
> 
> All this without two key players for the Cavs, Miles and Wagner.
> 
> The Cavaliers will eat the East up, just have probs with the West (team depth, will be helped with Newble back). As the Knicks just show they are a bad team.
> 
> Just thought Id show you this, lol..haha
> 
> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:



Don't forget those 4 awesome turnovers, yeah ricky davis is soooo awesome once again averaging 3 turnovers per game. Wow what a player.

I love how you're dumb enough to think Allan houston the league's best jump shooter should somehow bang around in the paint. You're a ridiculous guy.


Keep blabbing about houston, realize that he is injured and still dropped 20+ on your team.Wait til he is healthy and comes back with Amcdyess, then drops 40 on your team. 


I can't wait til you wake up and realize that the cavs are pumping Rickys stats to trade him. 

Are you really that idiotic to label wagner and miles " Key" Reserves? One is an unproven rookie who has seen more injury time than play time and the other one shoots what 36% from the field? OH NO WHERE WILL THE CAVS BE WITHOUT A CONSTANTLY INJURED PLAYER AND A GUY WHO PUTS UP MORE BRICKS THAN A CONSTRUCTION COMPANY????

Grats on beating an injury ridden Knicks roster.

Keep deluding yourself about that Ricky Davis guy, I hope you don't cry to hard when you team trades him for someone with higher basketball IQ like Travis Knight.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## CavsTalk

Your team just got crushed and you're talking crap???

Houston is one of the best shooters in the league, but it took him 25 shots to get 22 points. Hell, Diop would get 20 points if he took that many shots.

Get real dude, your team is garbage and we showed you that last night. The score doesn't show how much we outplayed your crap team.


----------



## TyGuy

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget those 4 awesome turnovers, yeah ricky davis is soooo awesome once again averaging 3 turnovers per game. Wow what a player.
> 
> I love how you're dumb enough to think Allan houston the league's best jump shooter should somehow bang around in the paint. You're a ridiculous guy.
> 
> 
> Keep blabbing about houston, realize that he is injured and still dropped 20+ on your team.Wait til he is healthy and comes back with Amcdyess, then drops 40 on your team.
> 
> 
> I can't wait til you wake up and realize that the cavs are pumping Rickys stats to trade him.
> 
> Are you really that idiotic to label wagner and miles " Key" Reserves? One is an unproven rookie who has seen more injury time than play time and the other one shoots what 36% from the field? OH NO WHERE WILL THE CAVS BE WITHOUT A CONSTANTLY INJURED PLAYER AND A GUY WHO PUTS UP MORE BRICKS THAN A CONSTRUCTION COMPANY????
> 
> Grats on beating an injury ridden Knicks roster.
> 
> Keep deluding yourself about that Ricky Davis guy, I hope you don't cry to hard when you team trades him for someone with higher basketball IQ like Travis Knight.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


4 turnovers isnt horrible but its certainly not good. However tehre is no way to mask this situation, the cavs outplayed the knicks and both Davis and Lebron outplayed houston. Remember Ricky plays in the back court at the 2 and 1 spot so 4 turnovers really isnt that crappy. I think given the chance Wagner would defintely be a key reserve. He was a lottery pick last year and was averaging 20 ppg for awhile when healthy. So he defintely would be a huge spark off the bench ala Bobby Jackson. I really don see how its humanly possible to defend last nights performance by the knicks. The cavs are a better team they were just completly new and needed a little time to gel. Sure they will have ups and downs still but this team is a lot more talented then the knicks and are a major pain to try and put away when everything is clicking.


----------



## TyGuy

> Who will win Rookie of the Year?
> LeBron James, Cleveland 81.0%
> Carmelo Anthony, Denver 19.0%
> 
> It is curious that GMs know that little about 18 year old NBA players. Then again, they are so infatuated with them they are probably willing to look past certain things. I also wonder if this survey came BEFORE Lebron was stinking up exhibition games and airballing shots?


 Who really cares if they saw the exibition season or not. Exibition means NOTHING, the stats that do count however go like this... 16.9 points per game 6.6 assist and 7 rebounds shooting ABOVE 43 %. He was 3 for 3 from behind the arc too last night so again what pre season? Looks to me like the gms as well as everybody else in the world in the "know" that said LeBron was for real were absolutely correct.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>TyGuy</b>!
> 4 turnovers isnt horrible but its certainly not good. However tehre is no way to mask this situation, the cavs outplayed the knicks and both Davis and Lebron outplayed houston. Remember Ricky plays in the back court at the 2 and 1 spot so 4 turnovers really isnt that crappy. I think given the chance Wagner would defintely be a key reserve. He was a lottery pick last year and was averaging 20 ppg for awhile when healthy. So he defintely would be a huge spark off the bench ala Bobby Jackson. I really don see how its humanly possible to defend last nights performance by the knicks. The cavs are a better team they were just completly new and needed a little time to gel. Sure they will have ups and downs still but this team is a lot more talented then the knicks and are a major pain to try and put away when everything is clicking.



I don't defend anything in that post. I just like to mess with cavstalk because he is a delusional spazz.


----------



## pavlo11

Hate to interject here in the middle but I gotta put in my two cents. On the Jazz rating he went from one extreme to the other.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>pavlo11</b>!
> Hate to interject here in the middle but I gotta put in my two cents. On the Jazz rating he went from one extreme to the other.



I don't believe you I think YOU love to interject~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




:upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset:


----------



## Rashidi

> Allan Houston, who is better than Ricky Davis right?? ....shot more shots than he scored. Terrible team player, as showed tonight. Soft, as showed with 3 boards. He treats the paint like it is a disease, doesn't go anywhere near it. Ricky Davis by the way had 16 points (on about half the shots Houston had), oh yeh...7 boards and 8 assists too.


Speaking of Ricky Davis, what happened to the 20 ppg he was supposed to average WITH Lebron. And why is it that I am hearing reports of Lebron already having an arguement with Davis?

Isn't that contrary to comments that you've made thus far?

As for Allan Houston, 39, 35, 28. Those would be his point totals in his 3 previous games. 22.9 ppg for the season on .443 fg%. Not bad for somebody who played hurt in his first 2 games of the season.

I don't get how you callled Houston selfish that game, since he had 4 assists and only 1 turnover, compared to Ricky Davis' 8 assists and FOUR turnovers.. Did you even watch the game, or are you just looking at the box score? The Knicks lost because Keith Van Horn played a bad game, and the team did a bad job of rebounding.

Still, I must commend Ricky Davis. He is ONLY 13th in the league in turnovers so far, only 2ne worst on his team. Lebron is 6th in the league in turnovers, so I'm sure he can thank his decreased total to Mr. James.

And as has been stated previously, Houston's role on the team is to score. Besides, he has Charlie Ward on the team.

Charlie Ward is averaging 8.3 apg, 3rd in the league, and is 11th in the league in turnovers. Ward is also FIRST in the league in assists per minute.

Compare that to Lebron's 12th/6th and Ricky's 17th/13th all you like. 

Next time you want to try and make a laughable statistical comparison, you might want to look at both sides, instead of the stats that benefit your own weak and flimsy arguement.

I notice that on the Cavs board, there is no other topic like this, so it is actually an honor that you think so highly of us that you come here to give the state of deusion (address) of your overhyped team.


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## CavsTalk

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the Knicks got creamed by the Cavaliers.

On the night, Houston sucked it up as usual when he faces Ricky D.

Arguements? From ESPN one night, please look into the situation before you talk. These two are getting closer every game.

Oh yeah...what was that score again??

shut up:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## Rashidi

Once again, it would be worth it to actually learn how to read posts not written by yourself.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 

Oooh look at me, I can be purposely obnoxious too!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 

It is hardly any wonder why you disabled your rating function.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## TyGuy

> Charlie Ward is averaging 8.3 apg, 3rd in the league, and is 11th in the league in turnovers. Ward is also FIRST in the league in assists per minute.
> 
> Compare that to Lebron's 12th/6th and Ricky's 17th/13th all you like.


Darn a rookie at 18 is only averaging 6.7 assists per game and had never previously played point guard before up to this point. I guess you would rather have good ol Charlie since you are comparing the two.


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## CavsTalk

I actually turned it off because I didn't know what it was when I was signing up. So I just turned it off.

In related news, the Knicks got crushed by the Cavaliers.

The reason why I am being a jackass......all that talk you did that means **** now, all that talk that you said was this and that and then watching the Cavs tear your team apart....then you try to defend it? No...there was nothing good about your Knicks team. Nothing.


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## Rashidi

> In related news, the Knicks got crushed by the Cavaliers.


In related news, there are 3 games left between the two teams.

And in more related news, the Cavs just gave Miami their first win of the year.



> The reason why I am being a jackass......all that talk you did that means **** now, all that talk that you said was this and that and then watching the Cavs tear your team apart....


No, the reason why you are being a jackass, is because you are immature. Why else would you post more here than at your own Cavs board? And why is it that if Lebron and the Cavs are so great, they aren't even selling out their own home games?



> Darn a rookie at 18 is only averaging 6.7 assists per game and had never previously played point guard before up to this point. I guess you would rather have good ol Charlie since you are comparing the two.


Lebron is also averaging a whopping 41 minutes per game.

Charlie Ward is currently *1ST* in the league in assists per minute.
Howard Eisley is currently *15TH* in the league in assists per minute.
Frank Williams is currently *25TH* in the league in assists per minute.
Lebron James is currently tied for *29TH* in the league in assists per minute (tied with Kenny Anderson.)

Where do other rookies rank?
TJ Ford: 13TH in assists per minute.
Steve Blake: 16TH in assists per minute.
Luke Ridnour: 31ST in assists per minute.

Kevin Ollie ranks 20th and Ricky Davis ranks 40th btw.

What is worth noting about Lebron's minute total is that he's logging 41 minutes per game, and as you said before, he's only 18. Which means, I think it's fair to say that he will not be able to keep it up over the course of a season. A highschool season does not compare you for the rigors of the NBA, and most high schoolers, most recently Amare Stoudemire who was 20 years old when he played as a HS rookie, have confirmed that being able to be ready for every game as the season goes on is the toughest problem. 82 NBA games while traveling from state to state does not compare to 30 high school games with little traveling, and regardless of his body, he's still only 18.

Right now Lebron is sprinting out of the gate. Problem is, an NBA season is a marathon.


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## The True Essence

18 year olds dont get tired that easy.........


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## Rashidi

> 18 year olds dont get tired that easy.........


Sure they do. We've all heard of the marines, right? Well, boot camp ends with a thing called the crucible. It's a 2 day long journey where you have to carry very heavy equipment on your back for about 25 miles I think it was.

Think of an nba season as a crucible.

Would you want to overwork yourself early on this long and tiresome journey?


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## CavsTalk

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> In related news, there are 3 games left between the two teams.
> 
> And in more related news, the Cavs just gave Miami their first win of the year.


In related news, the Knicks still got crushed by the Cavaliers, then they got crushed by the Pacers. 2-8


> No, the reason why you are being a jackass, is because you are immature. Why else would you post more here than at your own Cavs board? And why is it that if Lebron and the Cavs are so great, they aren't even selling out their own home games?


Immature?? Aww..Im sorry mommy. I didn't know you were so soft. Why do I post here? To make you look stupid, I post on a different Cavs board. This isn't my main one.



> Lebron is also averaging a whopping 41 minutes per game.
> 
> Charlie Ward is currently *1ST* in the league in assists per minute.
> Howard Eisley is currently *15TH* in the league in assists per minute.
> Frank Williams is currently *25TH* in the league in assists per minute.
> Lebron James is currently tied for *29TH* in the league in assists per minute (tied with Kenny Anderson.)
> 
> Where do other rookies rank?
> TJ Ford: 13TH in assists per minute.
> Steve Blake: 16TH in assists per minute.
> Luke Ridnour: 31ST in assists per minute.
> 
> Kevin Ollie ranks 20th and Ricky Davis ranks 40th btw.


Lebron is a 6'8'' SF turned SG....who is also 18 years old, who is also a rookie out of HS. You just hurt yourself with that arguement. He is doing better than any other HS rookie ever. And your APM is pretty lame. Most of those bums don't even play that much. The only thing that matters is the totals at the end of the game. #7 in the league in assists. 17 PPG. Better than any player you mentioned.



> What is worth noting about Lebron's minute total is that he's logging 41 minutes per game, and as you said before, he's only 18. Which means, I think it's fair to say that he will not be able to keep it up over the course of a season. A highschool season does not compare you for the rigors of the NBA, and most high schoolers, most recently Amare Stoudemire who was 20 years old when he played as a HS rookie, have confirmed that being able to be ready for every game as the season goes on is the toughest problem. 82 NBA games while traveling from state to state does not compare to 30 high school games with little traveling, and regardless of his body, he's still only 18.
> 
> Right now Lebron is sprinting out of the gate. Problem is, an NBA season is a marathon.


Sprinting out the gates with great stats. Will he tire? Maybe, you can't prove he can and I can't prove he won't. So that is a dumb arguement to bring up.

BTW, the Knicks got crushed by the Cavs....if you forgot. It was a pretty nasty game, did you watch? Some 18 year old went off on them, lol...:laugh: :laugh:


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## Rashidi

Everybody, get in position! 

Place your fork in your left hand and your knife in your right hand. 

On your mark... Get set... GO!

You can eat your crow now.


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## Rashidi

What happened? This guy disappeared when the Cavs started losing. They're the only team that has yet to win a game in the road in the NBA.


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## TyGuy

Cavs still torched the Knicks and a big reason to why they went on a losing streak was the absence of Boozer. They are playing much better ball since booz has returned and Lebron is steadily improving. Look for this team to make a couple trade moves and possibly fighting for a playoff spot.


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## Rashidi

> They are playing much better ball since booz has returned and Lebron is steadily improving.


On the contrary, Lebron has slightly regressed since the last time this topic was active. His minutes and FG% have both gone down, something I recall saying would happen.

Their improvement is dependent on what they get in return for Big Z, Davis, and Miles, 3 players who are likely to be traded this season for various reasons, as well as whether or not Wagner and Diop play well upon their returns.


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## TyGuy

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> On the contrary, Lebron has slightly regressed since the last time this topic was active. His minutes and FG% have both gone down, something I recall saying would happen.
> 
> Their improvement is dependent on what they get in return for Big Z, Davis, and Miles, 3 players who are likely to be traded this season for various reasons, as well as whether or not Wagner and Diop play well upon their returns.


Apparently you have been under a rock the past three games. LeBron has been on a tear.. 18 points, 23 points and of course last nights 37 points against Boston.

He also played something like 44 minutes in last nights game...


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## TyGuy

Oh ya he was also 10 of 20 from the field 50 % and shot 16 of 18 from the freethrow line so i would say he has been improving a lot instead of regressing as you Suggest


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## Rashidi

Exactly. Even with those 3 games, his season numbers have still gone down. Obviously more than those last 3 games have been played since this topic was last active. Why don't you tell us about the rest of them?


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## TyGuy

He had three bad games and since then has improved his numbers past what they were previously. Why cant you tell us why you chose to ignore the past three games, where obvious changes in the way Cleveland plays basketball has been apparent?


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## Rashidi

Lebron was playing 42 minutes per game and shooting about 43% the last time this topic was active.

A week ago, he was down to 39 minutes and was shooting .385. Carmelo Anthony even passed him in FG%.

Lebron is currently averaging .399 and 40 mpg.

*11/22 vs Hawks
15 points, 3-16 FG, 6 reb, 4 ast, 3 tos, 42 mins

11/26 vs Hornets
15 points, 5-17 FG, 8 rebs, 9 ast, 4 tos, 39 mins

11/28 vs Pistons
6 points, 2-8 FG, 2 rebs, 7 ast, 4 tos, 36 mins*

11/29 vs Grizzlies (2 OT)
33 points, 16 rebs, *7 ast, 8 tos, 55 mins*

*12/2 vs Nuggets
19 points, 6-19 FG, 6 rebs, 5 ast, 2 tos, 32 mins

12/3 vs Clippers
4 points, 2-13 FG, 6 rebs, 8 ast, 5 tos, 34 mins

12/6 vs Hawks
8 points, 4-12 FG, 6 rebs, 5 ast, 3 tos, 36 mins*

12/9 vs Raptors
18 points, 7-16 FG, 5 rebs, 3 ast, 2 tos, 37 mins

12/11 vs Pistons
23 points, 8-21 FG, 3 rebs, 9 ast, 4 tos, 43 mins

12/13 vs Celtics
37 points, 10-20 FG, 3 rebs, 4 ast, 2 tos, 45 mins

Whether you like it or not, Lebron has has more bad games than good of late, probably a result of him playing big minutes for such an extended period. Other than his last 2 games, and the double OT game his numbers have been well below average.

The Cavs also only won two of those games, and it's not like they were playing any contenders.


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## TyGuy

Actually LeBron currently is averaging over 40 % from the field. Check yahoo sports they are the most up to date. I dont see the point it posting all the numbers. A blind man could tell you LeBron has improved vastly in the last week. Its his apporach to the game and assuming more responsibility. ANy wya you sice it the cavs are in much better possition as a franchise with LeBron leading the way then the knicks are. Try and put down James all you want cause its fallin to deaf ears.


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## Rashidi

> ANy wya you sice it the cavs are in much better possition as a franchise with LeBron leading the way then the knicks are


Unfortunately, I never debated this, meaning, you are missing/ignoring the point. The discusion was about who is better THIS season. Mark Stein's Power Rankings are not based on who will be the better team 5 years down the road.


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## TyGuy

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, I never debated this, meaning, you are missing/ignoring the point. The discusion was about who is better THIS season. Mark Stein's Power Rankings are not based on who will be the better team 5 years down the road.


In case you didnt notice the past three pages have been off topic. Going on debates about who is better between Davis and Houston, posting stats and what not. What im saying is it may soon be justified with a trade and the suttle changes that have been made.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

Looks like this debate is over.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1686963


Looks like the great ricky davis got traded for Tony Battie. Wow, what a player, what a legacy!


How's that crow taste cavs talk?


P.S. nice record, Ricky's stats sure did translate into wins for your team.


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## Rashidi

Hey now, let's be fair. Battie was swapped for Chris Mihm.

Ricky was swapped for Eric Williams.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Hey now, let's be fair. Battie was swapped for Chris Mihm.
> 
> Ricky was swapped for Eric Williams.


My bad, no offense to you tony battie fans.

I also forgot to point out that the cavs had to include a second round pick and yogi to get the Celts to except the deal. I think it had something to do with that amazing 8 turnover performance a couple of games ago. I saw that game, it was awesome. Ricky stepped on to the court and was like 

" It don't mattah how talented my teammates are, how much potential I have , how long I've been in this league, or how good my coach is in dealing with players, I AM GONNA TURN THIS BALL OVA MORE THAN ANY G/F in the last two years AND NOTHIN IS GUNNA STOP ME!!!!" . 

He was a turn over machine that night, bad pass here bad catch there, botched play there, pass to teams seventh member there, offensive foul here. He couldn't be stoppped. 


Someone remind me how many points did houston score in his last game, and who on the Knicks was responsible for that win? 

I'll give you two guesses and the first one doesn't count.


In conclusion, an atheltic journeyman with low basketball IQ will never be as good as a bonafide scorer in this league, or as valuable.


I hope the robbery continues for the cavs just to please my buddy cavs talk. Maybe they'll do what all of these idiot experts have been predicting and trade Z away. Maybe something like this:





New York trades: C Kurt Thomas	(11.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 2.3 apg in 35.5 minutes)
SF Clarence Weatherspoon	(3.2 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 0.9 apg in 14.5 minutes)
PG Charlie Ward	(9.6 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 5.7 apg in 27.1 minutes)
New York receives: C Zydrunas Illgauskas	(16.1 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.6 apg in 32.8 minutes)
C Michael Stewart	(1.3 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.0 apg in 9.7 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -7.1 ppg, -7.3 rpg, and -7.3 apg.

Cleveland trades: C Zydrunas Illgauskas	(16.1 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.6 apg in 32.8 minutes)
C Michael Stewart	(1.3 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 0.0 apg in 9.7 minutes)
Cleveland receives: C Kurt Thomas	(11.7 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 2.3 apg in 19 games)
SF Clarence Weatherspoon	(3.2 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 0.9 apg in 12 games)
PG Charlie Ward	(9.6 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 5.7 apg in 19 games)
Change in team outlook: +7.1 ppg, +7.3 rpg, and +7.3 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED


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## TyGuy

If you are going to report the deal do it right. The cavs got a 2nd round deal when they made the Jumaine Jones trade. The cavs simply gave them back their 2nd round pick but keep their own next season..


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## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>TyGuy</b>!
> If you are going to report the deal do it right. The cavs got a 2nd round deal when they made the Jumaine Jones trade. The cavs simply gave them back their 2nd round pick but keep their own next season..


So what your saying is the Cavs gave a 2nd round pick to the Celts. Good point, very different from what I said.


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## TyGuy

Boston didnt have a 2nd round pick last season abd the cavs had two. Now both of them have one 2nd round pick next season.


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## CavsTalk

107-96

6-18, another stellar performance for Allan 'no matter how many shots I miss, I will never pass the rock' Houston.


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## Rashidi

> 6-18, another stellar performance for Allan 'no matter how many shots I miss, I will never pass the rock' Houston.


1. Did it occur to you that Marbury was passing him the ball because he was trying to get himself acclamated in the offense?

2. Passing the ball and getting an assist are 2 different things, braniac.

3. It's funny how the Cavs are now 5-5 since Ricky Davis was traded. Boy, I'm sure the team sure misses him and his 20 ppg. Yet another nail in the coffin that his 20/5/5 season of last year was nothing more than a Ron Mercerlike fluke.


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## CavsTalk

Sort of like your claims that the Knicks are better than the Cavaliers.


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## Rashidi

Haven't you checked the standings lately?


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## The OUTLAW

Hasn't this gotten tedious for you two yet?


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