# This season is definitely Kobe's worst....



## Hollywood14 (Mar 31, 2005)

--He couldn't take his team to the playoffs

--He couldn't take the Scoring Lead this season as most Laker fans projected last year

--No MVP Award or DPY(no shooting guard since Jordan)

--He ranks #2 in turnovers per game

--His team has the worst Forced-Turnover in the history of the NBA

--He settled his case by paying his accuser which I think made him look guilty because prior too all that, he vowed to fight the case all the way because he felt he was innocent.

--His record of the youngest player to reach 2,000 points was broken by Lebron James

--His record of the most 3-pointers in a game (12) was tied by Toronto's Donyell Marshall

--He is the 2nd Laker star not to make it to the playoffs, Jabbar was first in 1975

--Nike, after 2 years since signing a contract, has not made him a true signature shoe, like Jordan's AirJordans or Lebron's Air Zoom Generation, instead Nike makes him wear Air Huaraches that are worn by a lot of NBA and College Players, although Kobe gets the best exclusive colors.

--His shooting percentage this season is his worst in his entire career

I think Kobe is just an average player without Shaq. He couldn't do so many things that he use to do in the presence of the Most Dominant Center in the history of the NBA.. 


If Shaq wins the title, I wouldn't be surprised if the media writes more anti-Kobe stuff.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

You were going alright until you said Kobe's just an average player without Shaq. Average players don't get 27.5, 6, 6 per game.


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## BBB (Jan 19, 2005)

Hollywood14 said:


> If Shaq wins the title, I wouldn't be surprised if the media writes more anti-Kobe stuff.


And I wouldn't be surprised if you start making more anti-Kobe threads.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Kobe is what he is... a ridiculously talented, but selfish egotist who doesn't understand the first thing about leadership or team play. He's gotten what he's deserved for forcing Shaq and Phil out. As they say... be careful what you ask for.... you might not make the playoffs.


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## Hollywood14 (Mar 31, 2005)

Anyone who spends the ball that much time on their hands can get Kobe's Stats in points, rebounds, and assists.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Hollywood14 said:


> Anyone who spends the ball that much time on their hands can get Kobe's Stats in points, rebounds, and assists.


Not anyone. He's definitely ubertalented. He just doesn't understand how to play nice w/ others.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

Hollywood14 said:


> Anyone who spends the ball that much time on their hands can get Kobe's Stats in points, rebounds, and assists.


excellent point, because of course, you need the ball in your hands to get rebounds.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Yeah, Kobe is too selfish to ever win any titles. He could never win three titles as a 2nd option.


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

Hollywood14 said:


> --He couldn't take his team to the playoffs
> 
> --He couldn't take the Scoring Lead this season as most Laker fans projected last year
> 
> ...




Just an average player????? Keep in mind that in shaq's absence last year,he had that crazy streak of 30 and 40 ppg


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## RPGMan (Mar 31, 2005)

Hollywood14 said:


> --He couldn't take his team to the playoffs
> 
> --He couldn't take the Scoring Lead this season as most Laker fans projected last year
> 
> ...


more Hater-ade? Most of your stuff isnt even true and/or not important

1 - Most laker fans i knew didnt project him to lead the league in scoring (especially if they knew he'd miss 15 games this year). Its pretty obvious that with no one else on the sixers that iverson would lead it again.

2 - Who said he would win the MVP? His defense is of course weakened since he must handle the ball and has more responsibilities. 

3 - pretty much all great players have high turnover #s

4 - thats just your opinion

5 - why would he look guilty? She already dropped the real case a long time ago.

6 - kobe didnt start for his first couple years, obviously a guy playing 40 mins a game will break that record.

7 - kobe still has the record, and he did his more efficiently

8 - this isn't even true. Worthy missed the playoffs as well.

9 - kobe does get the best colors, part of this is because of the legal case so his marketing was cut down. who cares about shoes anyway.

10 - this isnt true either, his shooting percentage is not the worst of his career. In fact its not much different from last year. His rebs, assts, and blks have also all gone up from last year. He's also doubled his 3s made this year from last year while also shooting a better percentage.

Our bad record can be most attributed to bad coaching IMO


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Yeah, Kobe is too selfish to ever win any titles. He could never win three titles as a 2nd option.


So you honestly don't think Kobe is a selfish basketball player? He had to be constantly cajoled into giving Shaq the ball. Shaq. Every year the same thing, until he ran him (and Phil) out of town. In the dictionary, under selfish, there's a picture of my avatar.


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## Hollywood14 (Mar 31, 2005)

After all the backstabbing, after the mess kobe created in LA, wanting to be a solo Star and jealous of Jordan in winning titles without a Dominant Center, it is only appropriate that Shaq gets the last laugh because he's in the playoffs. Kobe deserves to get things in return, to blow back up on his face, but I didn't expect it so quick to happen and so soon.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> So you honestly don't think Kobe is a selfish basketball player? He had to be constantly cajoled into giving Shaq the ball. Shaq. Every year the same thing, until he ran him (and Phil) out of town. In the dictionary, under selfish, there's a picture of my avatar.


I don't care if he is selfish, that may be true, as it is for countless NBA players. My beef is the misconception that he doesn't understand team play or leadership, and therefore cannot coexist on a winning team. It's one of the more ridiculous beliefs floating around the forum right now, driven by hate towards Bryant. It's not hard to tell by watching Kobe that he is one of the top players in the NBA capable of headlining a contending team with the right cast.


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## RPGMan (Mar 31, 2005)

Hollywood14 said:


> After all the backstabbing, after the mess kobe created in LA, wanting to be a solo Star and jealous of Jordan in winning titles without a Dominant Center, it is only appropriate that Shaq gets the last laugh because he's in the playoffs. Kobe deserves to get things in return, to blow back up on his face, but I didn't expect it so quick to happen and so soon.


just curious, since i personally love both players. But why is it that shaq can come out and talk ALL this trash about the lakers and about kobe and about everything, and he's the saint and the hero. Meanwhile kobe is the much bigger man and hasnt said anything at all and people act like his silence is some sort of weird slap in the face??????


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

RPGMan said:


> just curious, since i personally love both players. But why is it that shaq can come out and talk ALL this trash about the lakers and about kobe and about everything, and he's the saint and the hero. Meanwhile kobe is the much bigger man and hasnt said anything at all and people act like his silence is some sort of weird slap in the face??????


Because Kobe's stance is so pathetically fake that everyone can see through it.


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## BallStateCards (Oct 14, 2004)

Hollywood14 said:


> --He couldn't take his team to the playoffs


That lumps him with other great players as well. It's his first year, and if the Lakers come out and compete next year, this year won't matter much in the long run.



> --He couldn't take the Scoring Lead this season as most Laker fans projected last year


Doesn't matter. Who cares if you win a scoring title? Half the time that doesn't mean **** anyway...

"Hey! I won the scoring title!"
"Hey! You still didn't make the playffs!"

It doesn't really mean anything, in my opinion.



> --No MVP Award or DPY(no shooting guard since Jordan)


Yeah, Kobe didn't win the MVP or the DPOY this year. That guy sucks.



> --He ranks #2 in turnovers per game


Behind who? Dwyane Wade, I believe. Shaq didn't make a whole lot of difference in that category. Kobe handled the ball more due to the suckiness of Atkins and Tierre Clown. To think he won't get better at handling is ridiculous.



> --His team has the worst Forced-Turnover in the history of the NBA


That's great, but it's old news. Rome wasn't built in a day, Having this season now and having this season two years from now is essentially the same. Just a losing season.



> --He settled his case by paying his accuser which I think made him look guilty because prior too all that, he vowed to fight the case all the way because he felt he was innocent.


So would you rather pay several millions of dollars in lawyer fees while your name is continually drageed throught the mud, or would you rather have the story just go away at a cheaper rate?



> --His record of the youngest player to reach 2,000 points was broken by Lebron James


That shouldn't bother him. LeBron has been starting since he came to Cleveland. Kobe rode the bench for a while. Besides, it's a pointless record. Many players score 2,000 points in one season.



> --His record of the most 3-pointers in a game (12) was tied by Toronto's Donyell Marshall


He still has the record for most three pointers and most consecutive three pointers (9). Just because someone tied it, doesn't diminish the difficulty of it.



> --He is the 2nd Laker star not to make it to the playoffs, Jabbar was first in 1975


Maybe second Laker star in recent memory. Kareem isn't exactly a bad guy to be lumped in with.



> --Nike, after 2 years since signing a contract, has not made him a true signature shoe, like Jordan's AirJordans or Lebron's Air Zoom Generation, instead Nike makes him wear Air Huaraches that are worn by a lot of NBA and College Players, although Kobe gets the best exclusive colors.


Kobe isn't marketable right now, and I highly doubt Nike is forcing their hand anywhere. If Kobe didn't like the shoe, he wouldn't be wearing them.



> --His shooting percentage this season is his worst in his entire career


That's great, but there was a large turnover and things change. To think that his shhoting percentage won't get better, especially considering the hard work Kobe puts in in the offseason, is ignorant.



> I think Kobe is just an average player without Shaq. He couldn't do so many things that he use to do in the presence of the Most Dominant Center in the history of the NBA.


28 points, 6 boards, and 6 assists isn't exactly average...



> If Shaq wins the title, I wouldn't be surprised if the media writes more anti-Kobe stuff.


Neither would I. Shaq gets a free pass on several things where Kobe does not. Shaq can make a phrase that some may view offensive, and you'll hear stuff like, "Oh that Shaq, always joking around." However, Kobe hasn't gotten a pass on _anything_ for the past few years.


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## Hollywood14 (Mar 31, 2005)

[quoe]1 - Most laker fans i knew didnt project him to lead the league in scoring (especially if they knew he'd miss 15 games this year). Its pretty obvious that with no one else on the sixers that iverson would lead it again.

2 - Who said he would win the MVP? His defense is of course weakened since he must handle the ball and has more responsibilities. 
[/quote]


It's funny that most Laker fans deny it now since its obvious Kobe isn't going to win any of these. It's even funnier when they laughed at Shaq at the beginning of the season when he left for Miami, but now these same Laker fans are sad Lakers are not in the playoffs and praying Miami doesn't win the title. I know because I personally work with 6 Laker fans who are completely like this, no longer laughing at Shaq but hoping he fails.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I don't care if he is selfish, that may be true, as it is for countless NBA players. My beef is the misconception that he doesn't understand team play or leadership, and therefore cannot coexist on a winning team. It's one of the more ridiculous beliefs floating around the forum right now, driven by hate towards Bryant. It's not hard to tell by watching Kobe that he is one of the top players in the NBA capable of headlining a contending team with the right cast.


Its not driven by my hate for him (which I admittedly have), its driven by watching him play, and watching what a horrible leader he is, the terrible shots he takes, and by how miserable the guys playing w/ him look. And how they avoid even looking at him at times because they know he's gonna launch a ridiculous 3 if they give him the ball.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Because Kobe's stance is so pathetically fake that everyone can see through it.


arent you a nets fan? cant you see through kidd's "stance" of having his wife and child at every game after he assaulted and spit on the poor woman? give me a break with this BS. but its ok because kidd is an unselfish player on the court.


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## TheRoc5 (Mar 1, 2005)

i dont like him and havent needed him to do anything but lose but tonight i need him to win


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

i really dont like labeling players selfish..... especially with a guy as talented as kobe. i mean everyone makes a case for every superstar in league being selfish...
you never heard t-mac being selfish?
never heard of AI being selfish?...
the nplayers who arnt get blamed for not being assertive enough
How many times have you heard that Lebron isnt carrying the team enough?
How many times have you heard that KG needs to get more shots and stop trying to assist so much?

It is such flat out hard to find a perfect median

the only two players that probably have that perfect median is Shaq and Duncan.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Debt Collector said:


> arent you a nets fan? cant you see through kidd's "stance" of having his wife and child at every game after he assaulted and spit on the poor woman? give me a break with this BS. but its ok because kidd is an unselfish player on the court.


Kidd is Kidd. I don't make excuses for him. On the court he's the greatest. Off the court all signs point to a disaster scene. But primarily what I am concerned about as a basketball fan, is on the court. Do you see me calling Kobe a rapist in here? No, I talk basketball.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> Its not driven by my hate for him (which I admittedly have).


Enough said really, you can say it's not driven by hate, but when you admit to hating the guy then come out with such irrational and illogical opinions, it's hard to believe that your hate for the guy isn't affecting those opinions. 



SeaNet said:


> its driven by watching him play, and watching what a horrible leader he is, the terrible shots he takes, and by how miserable the guys playing w/ him look. And how they avoid even looking at him at times because they know he's gonna launch a ridiculous 3 if they give him the ball.


I've watched 50+ Lakers games this year, and these things just don't happen.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Kidd is Kidd. I don't make excuses for him. On the court he's the greatest. Off the court all signs point to a disaster scene. But primarily what I am concerned about as a basketball fan, is on the court. Do you see me calling Kobe a rapist in here? No, I talk basketball.


you responded directly to an off-court point.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Debt Collector said:


> you responded directly to an off-court point.


So, you lump Kobe's trial, Kidd's domestic abuse situation, and Kobe and Shaq's comments about each other together as off-court points? Personally, I see one of the three as being both basketball related and very different from the other two.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Enough said really, you can say it's not driven by hate, but when you admit to hating the guy then come out with such irrational and illogical opinions, it's hard to believe that your hate for the guy isn't affecting those opinions.
> 
> 
> 
> I've watched 50+ Lakers games this year, and these things just don't happen.


What do you know about how my feelings and my basketball evaluations are linked? Am I you? And illogical? Hardly. It doesn't bother me that you didn't see the things I've seen. I feel very comfortable w/ my basketball analysis. I've been watching Kobe for years, and its the same stuff all the time w/ him. Crazy talent, selfish egotist.


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## RPGMan (Mar 31, 2005)

Hollywood14 said:


> [quoe]1 - Most laker fans i knew didnt project him to lead the league in scoring (especially if they knew he'd miss 15 games this year). Its pretty obvious that with no one else on the sixers that iverson would lead it again.
> 
> 2 - Who said he would win the MVP? His defense is of course weakened since he must handle the ball and has more responsibilities.



It's funny that most Laker fans deny it now since its obvious Kobe isn't going to win any of these. It's even funnier when they laughed at Shaq at the beginning of the season when he left for Miami, but now these same Laker fans are sad Lakers are not in the playoffs and praying Miami doesn't win the title. I know because I personally work with 6 Laker fans who are completely like this, no longer laughing at Shaq but hoping he fails.[/QUOTE]

i dont laugh at shaq or hope he fails, i still love the guy. He will always be a laker to me and i hope he wins the title. Oh yeah.....why not respond to the rest of my that proves a few of your points absolutely wrong??


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

RPGMan said:


> just curious, since i personally love both players. But why is it that shaq can come out and talk ALL this trash about the lakers and about kobe and about everything, and he's the saint and the hero. Meanwhile kobe is the much bigger man and hasnt said anything at all and people act like his silence is some sort of weird slap in the face??????


I've ask this question a million times...and I have yet to get an reasonalbe response.....

and its because that thinking isn't reasonable...its basically Shaq-good....Kobe-evil...and you can't convince them otherwise


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> So, you lump Kobe's trial, Kidd's domestic abuse situation, and Kobe and Shaq's comments about each other together as off-court points? Personally, I see one of the three as being both basketball related and very different from the other two.


i dont consider shaq's flaming of kobe in the media very basketball related since A) the comments themself doesnt happen on the court b) the things shaq says about him are hardly in reference to kobe's on court performance. 

i just find it funny for you to have the abillity to see through someone's supposed media facade, and now you've been completely flipped on the defensive when i came up with an example of the best player on your favorite team parading his "fakeness" - probably something you've accepted long ago.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Debt Collector said:


> i dont consider shaq's flaming of kobe in the media very basketball related since A) the comments themself doesnt happen on the court b) the things shaq says about him are hardly in reference to kobe's on court performance.
> 
> i just find it funny for you to have the abillity to see through someone's supposed media facade, and now you've been completely flipped on the defensive when i came up with an example of the best player on your favorite team parading his "fakeness" - probably something you've accepted long ago.


Exactly where did I get defensive? I responded calmly and on point. Kidd is Kidd. I've known what the story is w/ him for years.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Exactly where did I get defensive? I responded calmly and on point. Kidd is Kidd. I've known what the story is w/ him for years.


the point is, you sure as hell dont have a kidd face on a rat body, although he gave you all the more reason to hate him personally. if you're gonna say that you only hate guys because of on court things, well, you sure dont hate VC either, although he loafs and quits (worse than ballhogging/selfishness, at least to me). im offering free kobe-hate therapy, but you have to want to be cured first.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Its not driven by my hate for him (which I admittedly have), its driven by watching him play, and watching what a horrible leader he is, the terrible shots he takes, and by how miserable the guys playing w/ him look. And how they avoid even looking at him at times because they know he's gonna launch a ridiculous 3 if they give him the ball.


Ah, SeaNet, you really crack me up...

The things you say make me wonder that you've started watching him play this year, in this terrible and embarassing Lakers team.

Cause if you had been watching Kobe for a few years, you'd notice:

- his career Apg is at 4.3. Not good? check out his last 5 seasons (4.9, 5.0, 5.5, 5.9, 5.1). Because of Shaq? Well, this year, without The Big Toe, he is dishing 6.0. WOW! What a ballhog! What a selfish man! who has averaged more apg during the last 6 years not playing point? Not many, i'd bet;

- what about him beating all-mighty LBJames, the cross between Magic and Jordan in triple-doubles? That's right. the dude goes for rebounds, too. Yup. True sign of a selfish player.

- horrible shots? Yeah, right. Talking about this year? I'll give you that. Talking about those airballs against Utah in the playoffs a decae ago? I'll also give you that. But what else? Last years finals? Heck, if you played close attention to the threepeat years, you would have noticed who would step it up in the 4th. 
(btw, if you are coerent (sp?) you must haaate Ai and Kidd, don't you? Cause they shoot like crap!)

- Not a good leader? Yes. Has he run out of time to become one? Well, unless you've never watched Jordan till he was 30, you must agree he has time to blend in more with his teammates...

What's next?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Again.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Ah, SeaNet, you really crack me up...
> 
> The things you say make me wonder that you've started watching him play this year, in this terrible and embarassing Lakers team.
> 
> ...


Paulo, its not about shooting poorly, its about taking bad shots. I see the two as being very, very different, so the Kidd comparison there doesn't apply, IMO.

I've never stated that Kobe was doomed forever and I regularly state that Kobe is the most talented wing player in the league. (edit: this was in response to the leadership issue).

As far as assists, I don't see getting assists and being selfish as being mutally exclusive at all. Look at Mebury. Or the Franchise. You can be selfish and get alot of assists, because you insist that the ball is always in your hands and that you create everything that happens for your team, a la Kobe.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> Paulo, its not about shooting poorly, its about taking bad shots. I see the two as being very, very different, so the Kidd comparison there doesn't apply, IMO.


A bad shot = a miss

Example: Player A can't make layups, player A always takes layups, Player A never makes layups, does that mean that a layup is a bad shot? No it just means that a layup is a bad shot for Player A.

So when it looks to you like Kobe is taking a bad shot, maybe its just the fact that other players can't make it that makes you think that.

A bad shot is a shot that you can't make, that means if you fg% is low you are missing too many shots which means that you are taking bad shots, so in fact low fg % is an indicator of quality of shots.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> - his career Apg is at 4.3. Not good? check out his last 5 seasons (4.9, 5.0, 5.5, 5.9, 5.1). Because of Shaq? Well, this year, without The Big Toe, he is dishing 6.0. WOW! What a ballhog! What a selfish man! who has averaged more apg during the last 6 years not playing point? Not many, i'd bet;


Two words, Stephon. Marbury. 



> - you would have noticed who would step it up in the 4th.


Now he can't do it as much because he *has* to step up in the first three quarters as well. He can't be the savior in the 4th anymore because there is no Shaq. 



> - Not a good leader? Yes. Has he run out of time to become one? Well, unless you've never watched Jordan till he was 30, you must agree he has time to blend in more with his teammates...


This one, I agree with. Kobe has a lot of time to learn how to lead, and it's his first year leading. It's probably like learning how to be a PG. He's most likely to improve his leadership in general. I liked the way he put his arm around Tierre Brown after a loss and started talking to him. I wonder what he was saying, but it looked like he was giving some advice to the young guys. I think that's a good step, making all the teammates feel special.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Paulo, its not about shooting poorly, its about taking bad shots. I see the two as being very, very different, so the Kidd comparison there doesn't apply, IMO.
> 
> I've never stated that Kobe was doomed forever and I regularly state that Kobe is the most talented wing player in the league. (edit: this was in response to the leadership issue).


Fair enough.



> As far as assists, I don't see getting assists and being selfish as being mutally exclusive at all. Look at Mebury. Or the Franchise. You can be selfish and get alot of assists, because you insist that the ball is always in your hands and that you create everything that happens for your team, a la Kobe.


2 things:
- Kobe never had a creative PG to work with. Never. Noone finds Kobe for the shot. He has to create for himself AND for others. How do you think Chucky is averaging +13ppg? Creating his own shot? Lol.

- Odom can't create in the PF spot. He just can't. Or he distributes or he bangs down low. A PF nowadays can't be trusted to set up teammates.

So that leaves Kobe as:
- the best offensive player in the team;
- the best creator (both for him and for the others).

So, why shouldn't he have the ball in his hands all the time? He must.

That's the reason this Laker team sucks. Nor they have a reliable second banana to relieve Kobe of the offensive burden nor they have the suitable role players around him.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> 2 things:
> - Kobe never had a creative PG to work with. Never. Noone finds Kobe for the shot. He has to create for himself AND for others. How do you think Chucky is averaging +13ppg? Creating his own shot? Lol.
> 
> - Odom can't create in the PF spot. He just can't. Or he distributes or he bangs down low. A PF nowadays can't be trusted to set up teammates.
> ...


Its not that what you are saying here isn't reasonable. It is. Its just that when you've got to make things happen for your team, there is a fine line between creating for others and dominating the ball too much and playing selfishly. I think that Kobe is on the wrong side of that line. You do not. I am happy to agree to disagree on this point.

As a side note to the selfishness, I just can't get over the fact that he forced Shaq and Phil out of town. The most dominant player of his time and the most championship winningest coach of all time forced out the door because he had to be the man and couldn't work w/ others. I admit it, I absolutely cannot get over that, and I never will be able to. How could he have done that? It boggles my mind.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

kobe's constantly bashed for what he does on offense, yet he's got a healthy ppfga, and the lakers are the 7th most efficient offensive team in the league this year. how can he constantly be bashed for his launching of bad shots and holding the ball too much when these are the facts??? the lakers are simply a horrendous defensive team.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

thug_immortal8 said:


> A bad shot = a miss
> 
> Example: Player A can't make layups, player A always takes layups, Player A never makes layups, does that mean that a layup is a bad shot? No it just means that a layup is a bad shot for Player A.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, but if Player A cannot make a layup then he does not belong in the NBA. I know it's just an example, but a totally bad one.

Kobe does take "bad shots" because he thinks he can make every shot he puts up. People can admire his confidence, but that could be considered overconfidence. That's one reason I think Kobe will not be considered as one of the greatest players. He hasn't learned what his limitations are. He's got to learn that although you can sometimes make a shot over 3 defenders and you think you can do it again and again, the odds will catch up with you, no matter how good you are.

A bad shot does not always mean a missed field goal. There have been wide open shots that have been missed and no one would call that a bad field goal attempt. I'd call that bad luck or a bad shooter. I think a bad shot is when a player is doing something that is not part of the flow of the game. Like driving into a double or triple team and then putting up a shot. Or pulling up with more defenders in rebounding position and taking a shot when there is no one to try to grab an offensive rebound. Or jumping recklessly into the lane looking for a shot, then passing it in the last second because you know you can't make it or it will get blocked.

I've seen Kobe play since he entered the league and he has the talent to become one of the greatest, but he also has not learned to play within the game. He still tries to beat the game by himself because he thinks he can do it. In my 25+ years I have been watching basketball I have only seen two people who can do what they say they can do on the court. Shaq was one of them, although not all the time, and of course, MJ was the other player. But both these players are unusual athletic specimens. If only Kobe could understand how use his skills to make the game easier instead of trying to overpower it, then he and The Lakers will win more consistantly.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

tatahbenitez said:


> I'm sorry, but if Player A cannot make a layup then he does not belong in the NBA. I know it's just an example, but a totally bad one.
> 
> Kobe does take "bad shots" because he thinks he can make every shot he puts up. People can admire his confidence, but that could be considered overconfidence. That's one reason I think Kobe will not be considered as one of the greatest players. He hasn't learned what his limitations are. He's got to learn that although you can sometimes make a shot over 3 defenders and you think you can do it again and again, the odds will catch up with you, no matter how good you are.
> 
> ...



Great post Dr T.!!!!


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> Great post Dr T.!!!!


Thank you. I'm glad that my Cracker Jack Doctorite on Professional Basketball was good for something. :banana:


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

tatahbenitez said:


> I'm sorry, but if Player A cannot make a layup then he does not belong in the NBA. I know it's just an example, but a totally bad one.
> 
> Kobe does take "bad shots" because he thinks he can make every shot he puts up. People can admire his confidence, but that could be considered overconfidence. That's one reason I think Kobe will not be considered as one of the greatest players. He hasn't learned what his limitations are. He's got to learn that although you can sometimes make a shot over 3 defenders and you think you can do it again and again, the odds will catch up with you, no matter how good you are.
> 
> A bad shot does not always mean a missed field goal. There have been wide open shots that have been missed and no one would call that a bad field goal attempt. I'd call that bad luck or a bad shooter. I think a bad shot is when a player is doing something that is not part of the flow of the game. Like driving into a double or triple team and then putting up a shot. Or pulling up with more defenders in rebounding position and taking a shot when there is no one to try to grab an offensive rebound. Or jumping recklessly into the lane looking for a shot, then passing it in the last second because you know you can't make it or it will get blocked.


It doesn't change the fact that for Kobe some of the shots you consider bad are normal difficulty level shots for Kobe. And most of the time Kobe takes a bad shot like driving in he gets fouled and gets to the line, which turns a "bad shot" into a good shot because the oppossing player picks up a foul and Kobe gets 2 FT's. 

Kobe's worst shots are only when he is on fire, or when the team is down 20 and he is trying anything to bring them back into the game, there isn't any times where he comes down the court, with 16 seconds left on the clock and takes a 22 footer over 3 guys.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Its not that what you are saying here isn't reasonable. It is. Its just that when you've got to make things happen for your team, there is a fine line between creating for others and dominating the ball too much and playing selfishly. I think that Kobe is on the wrong side of that line. You do not. I am happy to agree to disagree on this point.


Sure. No problem. :cheers: 



> As a side note to the selfishness, I just can't get over the fact that he forced Shaq and Phil out of town. The most dominant player of his time and the most championship winningest coach of all time forced out the door because he had to be the man and couldn't work w/ others. I admit it, I absolutely cannot get over that, and I never will be able to. How could he have done that? It boggles my mind.


So, still believing the myth, are you? :biggrin: 

First, the easy part: Phil Jackson. I never liked him. Heck, I hated his guts. Till now i still can't figure out if he is a great coach or a guy who coached great players.
I hated how he stayed aloof of the game. some people would call it "letting the players figure it out themselves". I say that's not coaching. Heck, even I could sit on the bench and whistle while i let Jordan and Pippen, kobe and Shaq "figure it out".
Also of notice: Phil won squat in his last 2 years as a head coach. And in the process he had to "obey" Payton's demands for a change in the game plan because they were being killed by the Spurs. I wouldn't call him a bad coach, obviously, but IMHO he is way overrated.
I would like him to get back on coaching in a team as the Knicks (who he always loved) and try to make mends with THAT roster. Maybe then he would prove me wrong. For Krause and West would be no longer arouind to fill up the squad to him...

The tricky part: Shaq.
Remember he was stll under contract when he DEMANDED a trade. Why would he do it? was he unhappy that the Lakers brass made their priority resigning kobe? Well, why woudn't they? Shaq was already signed for 2 more years and would always be the best paid guy in the team. So what was his beef?
Quite simple, really. He couldn't stand to share the spotlight. that's Shaq for you. Yes, he is a good guy. Yes, he is an amazing player. But he wants the stage just for him. And in doing so, he rubbed the worng guy the wrong way. that's Kobe. the fitness freak. The give-it-all, steel-resolve player. Kobe couldn't put up to his lackadaisical effort. surgeries which damaged a season. Big mouthing about how the Lakers were HIS team.

Kobe is no Magic. He didn't turn the other cheek. He didn't make ammends, He is an introspective guy. so he didn't approach Shaq. and shaq didn't approach Kobe. so the 2 fell apart and then it's all she wrote.

I don't think there is a clear guilty part on Shaq leaving the Lakers. Yes, yo see him leave the Lakers put a dagger in by back. But i wouldn't say it was Kobe fault. Like i've stated numerous times i think it was all Kobe's, Shaq's, Buss's and Mitch's fault for not handling the situation as adults.

One thing is for certain: if the coach was Riley and the GM West they would be still playeing together...

but why do you blame kobe on this?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

kflo said:


> kobe's constantly bashed for what he does on offense, yet he's got a healthy ppfga, and the lakers are the 7th most efficient offensive team in the league this year. how can he constantly be bashed for his launching of bad shots and holding the ball too much when these are the facts??? the lakers are simply a horrendous defensive team.


again - lakers 7th most efficient offense in the league. how?


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

kflo said:


> again - lakers 7th most efficient offense in the league. how?


No, no NO, kflo! Don't try to bring any reasonable, stats-based, scientific mumbo-jumbo around here! that may dispell The Myth!!! :curse: 

Seriously, the fact that the Lakers have probably the worst defensive frontcourt tandem in the league and a revolving door as a PG has much more to say for the Lakers abysmall season than Kobe's game...


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

thug_immortal8 said:


> It doesn't change the fact that for Kobe some of the shots you consider bad are normal difficulty level shots for Kobe. And most of the time Kobe takes a bad shot like driving in he gets fouled and gets to the line, which turns a "bad shot" into a good shot because the oppossing player picks up a foul and Kobe gets 2 FT's.


That's why they are called bad shots, because they are difficult to make!!!

I know driving into the lane and making contact for a foul is excellent for the team, but to do it constantly while not be in control is called recklessness, which Kobe does often. I have to tell you, that when Kobe drives in the lane, he does not go to the line most of the time. Kobe is good at getting his defender into foul trouble, but it is not mostly because he drives to the basket. Kobe does a sweep move with his arms and the ball which causes the defender to reach in and then gets tangled with Kobe. Kobe also gets his defender up in pump fakes which gets him to the line.

Kobe drives too much and too recklessly to consistantly have positive results. He does do some great moves, but not as often as getting into trouble. 










> Kobe's worst shots are only when he is on fire, or when the team is down 20 and he is trying anything to bring them back into the game, there isn't any times where he comes down the court, with 16 seconds left on the clock and takes a 22 footer over 3 guys


All that is a sign of recklessness and bad shooting. Kobe has to control himself and his game to make the most of THE GAME!!!! :headbang:


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Sure. No problem. :cheers:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you already figured out Phil as someone who does nothing and is overrated, then why haven't basketball owners, GM's, and other teams have not figured it out either. Phil is considered, throughout the NBA circuit as one of the best, if not the best coach ever. Just because Phil didn't like Kobe doesn't mean he is a bad coach. It could mean something else about Kobe, did you ever think of that?







> The tricky part: Shaq.
> Remember he was stll under contract when he DEMANDED a trade. Why would he do it? was he unhappy that the Lakers brass made their priority resigning kobe? Well, why woudn't they? Shaq was already signed for 2 more years and would always be the best paid guy in the team. So what was his beef?
> Quite simple, really. He couldn't stand to share the spotlight. that's Shaq for you. Yes, he is a good guy. Yes, he is an amazing player. But he wants the stage just for him. And in doing so, he rubbed the worng guy the wrong way. that's Kobe. the fitness freak. The give-it-all, steel-resolve player. Kobe couldn't put up to his lackadaisical effort. surgeries which damaged a season. Big mouthing about how the Lakers were HIS team.


You are probably right, that Shaq could not share the spotlight, but not with just any other superstar. Look at Shaq and Wade. They are getting along on the same stage. It was Kobe that Shaq could not get along with. The same with Phil and Kobe. Maybe there is something more to Kobe than meets the eye, huh? 










> Kobe is no Magic. He didn't turn the other cheek. He didn't make ammends, He is an introspective guy. so he didn't approach Shaq. and shaq didn't approach Kobe. so the 2 fell apart and then it's all she wrote.
> 
> I don't think there is a clear guilty part on Shaq leaving the Lakers. Yes, yo see him leave the Lakers put a dagger in by back. But i wouldn't say it was Kobe fault. Like i've stated numerous times i think it was all Kobe's, Shaq's, Buss's and Mitch's fault for not handling the situation as adults.
> 
> ...


 It was Kobe's, Mitch, Buss's, and Shaq's fault, but I put most of the blame on the 3 stooges (Kobe, Mitch, and Buss) especially Moe(Kobe). You see one side of the story, I see another side. You can make Kobe the almighty player that he could be, but I see him more of a overconfident young brat who wanted too much too soon and is now reaping what he sowed.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

tatahbenitez said:


> If you already figured out Phil as someone who does nothing and is overrated, then why haven't basketball owners, GM's, and other teams have not figured it out either. Phil is considered, throughout the NBA circuit as one of the best, if not the best coach ever. Just because Phil didn't like Kobe doesn't mean he is a bad coach. It could mean something else about Kobe, did you ever think of that?


When did i said that? I feel Jax is overrated, yes, but i don't think he is no good. Btw, why do you say Phil didn't like Kobe?



> You are probably right, that Shaq could not share the spotlight, but not with just any other superstar. Look at Shaq and Wade. They are getting along on the same stage. It was Kobe that Shaq could not get along with. The same with Phil and Kobe. Maybe there is something more to Kobe than meets the eye, huh?


Shaq and Wade are doing just fine because:

- Wade is not Kobe yet. People don't attribute Miami's success to Wade, but to Shaq;
- Shaq is not dum. He knows his skills are eroding. But i bet he would rather retire as to hear people saying Miami is Wade's team...



> It was Kobe's, Mitch, Buss's, and Shaq's fault, but I put most of the blame on the 3 stooges (Kobe, Mitch, and Buss) especially Moe(Kobe). You see one side of the story, I see another side. You can make Kobe the almighty player that he could be, but I see him more of a overconfident young brat who wanted too much too soon and is now reaping what he sowed.


then why don't you put me right and state how you feel Kobe alihenated Shaq? and don't bring me that "Kobe ratted him out", for the troubles happened long before that...


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## Q8i (Oct 23, 2004)

q said:


> You were going alright until you said Kobe's just an average player without Shaq. Average players don't get 27.5, 6, 6 per game.



True


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

Hollywood14 said:


> Anyone who spends the ball that much time on their hands can get Kobe's Stats in points, rebounds, and assists.



EVEN ME!!!???? I"M GOING TO JOIN THE NBA!!!!!


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> So you honestly don't think Kobe is a selfish basketball player? He had to be constantly cajoled into giving Shaq the ball. Shaq. Every year the same thing, until he ran him (and Phil) out of town. In the dictionary, under selfish, there's a picture of my avatar.



He ran Phil out of town? Or Phil wanted more money? Thats a pretty big question. Phil wanted to get paid a 16 mill contract, and become the highest paid coach in the NBA. When he didn't get it, and said he wouldn't becoming back next year.. I recall him using Kobe then. But lets face it, Shaq and Kobe and Phil all would have been Lakers this year if they had all gotten there money.

Shaq wanted a five year contract. The lakers instead wanted to pay him an insane amount of 30 million a year, with a yearly contract with options. Shaq isn't a retard, he knows his body is most likely not going to be around 5 more years. If he breaks down after two seasons its only 60 million, vs the set 130 million 5 year deal. It's all busniess my friend. Plain and simple.

Jackson wanted the cash. The lakers didn't want to pay it.

Kobe wanted the cash, and they were actually leaning towards not giving him the amount he wanted when there was still a chance at keeping both Jackson and Shaq. When Shaq requested the trade, and kobe already Verbally agreed to sign with the Clippers... Lakers raced over and gave Kobe what he wanted.

If Shaq ever would have even considered commign back for 30 million a season, that deal they gave kobe would have killed that. But thats the way it works.

I know its easy to say this.. But most anti-kobe people, should simply try picking up phil Jacksons book, or going to a normal public library and search past laker articles in the times and OCregiester... This is all there. Jackson even went into great lengths to talk about the conflict between Kobe and Shaq, but also said that management and Shaq couldnt come to an agreement about his contract. 

That being said, I'm sure this is exactly what Kobe wanted. I'm fine with that. But when people say things like Kobe pushed Phil out of town, and that Shaq wouldnt play if Kobe was still there simply didnt read news papers or books on the subject, and play into the urban myth and hating of Kobe Bryant.

As for his failures... Show me any team in recent history that has had as many problems with coaching staff and players as the lakers have, and had a great record? Everyone keeps saying... "LOOK AT DENVER, THEY LIKE RULE AND STUFF"... Yeah, I wish we had gotten a coach like that... Instead we got a guy who said from day one he is only keeping the seat worm. And we had a coach like Rudy, who spent the entire offseason training camp not running a SINGLE defensive drill... and then we spend the season wondering why there defense sucks so much? 

Give it a few years, thats what rebuilding is.. Then if we suck you can rub it in our faces.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

CDRacingZX6R said:


> He ran Phil out of town? Or Phil wanted more money? Thats a pretty big question. Phil wanted to get paid a 16 mill contract, and become the highest paid coach in the NBA. When he didn't get it, and said he wouldn't becoming back next year.. I recall him using Kobe then. But lets face it, Shaq and Kobe and Phil all would have been Lakers this year if they had all gotten there money.
> 
> Shaq wanted a five year contract. The lakers instead wanted to pay him an insane amount of 30 million a year, with a yearly contract with options. Shaq isn't a retard, he knows his body is most likely not going to be around 5 more years. If he breaks down after two seasons its only 60 million, vs the set 130 million 5 year deal. It's all busniess my friend. Plain and simple.
> 
> ...


 :clap: lets give it up for this man...
he's proving haters....one day at a time


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

CD, very good post, nothing to add. 



kflo said:


> again - lakers 7th most efficient offense in the league. how?


You're asking people that don't really care to balance facts with opinion.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

kflo said:


> again - lakers 7th most efficient offense in the league. how?


and still no answer.


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## Lynx (Mar 6, 2004)

*.*



SeaNet said:


> Kobe is what he is... a ridiculously talented, but selfish egotist who doesn't understand the first thing about leadership or team play. * He's gotten what he's deserved for forcing Shaq and Phil out.* As they say... be careful what you ask for.... you might not make the playoffs.


hmmm wait........you have to blame Jerry Buss and Mitch here. But what can I know when you get most of your news from _BSPN_


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

CDRacingZX6R said:


> He ran Phil out of town? Or Phil wanted more money? Thats a pretty big question. Phil wanted to get paid a 16 mill contract, and become the highest paid coach in the NBA. When he didn't get it, and said he wouldn't becoming back next year.. I recall him using Kobe then. But lets face it, Shaq and Kobe and Phil all would have been Lakers this year if they had all gotten there money.


$16 million contract? Are you sure about that? And is that a yearly salary, because Phil was still the highest paid coach at that time, going into his final year at $5 million. I live in the LA area and I was hearing that Phil was asking for 10 million a year, not $16 million. Maybe this coming season he could get that from The Lakers, but not last season. And Phil already knew The Lakers were not going to re-sign him after The Championship debacle. I don't even think The Lakers would have hired Phil back even if Phil took a paycut. The writing was already on The Laker walls. Change was coming, and Phil and Shaq were the ones outside looking in.










> Shaq wanted a five year contract. The lakers instead wanted to pay him an insane amount of 30 million a year, with a yearly contract with options. Shaq isn't a retard, he knows his body is most likely not going to be around 5 more years. If he breaks down after two seasons its only 60 million, vs the set 130 million 5 year deal. It's all busniess my friend. Plain and simple.


I don't know what the specifics of Shaq's requests were, but I do know Laker management was not going to negociate with Shaq after The Championship series. Like I said before, there were changes that were already going to be made and Shaq was one of the big pieces to be moved. Things had gone too far for Shaq and Kobe to play together. Buss and Kupchak chose Kobe and I do believe they were already thinking about these changes early on.









> Jackson wanted the cash. The lakers didn't want to pay it.


I don't think so. Jackson knew The Lakers would never sign him after losing the series. Phil knew The Lakers wanted to keep Kobe and would do anything to appease "The Almighty Kobe".









> Kobe wanted the cash, and they were actually leaning towards not giving him the amount he wanted when there was still a chance at keeping both Jackson and Shaq. When Shaq requested the trade, and kobe already Verbally agreed to sign with the Clippers... Lakers raced over and gave Kobe what he wanted.


Are you kidding me? The Lakers gave Kobe the maximum salary on their first offer. Kobe didn't immediately sign because, according to Kobe, he wanted to test the market. But if you noticed, during this time, Kobe did not sign until Shaq was officially traded to Miami.

There was no chance that Phil and Shaq would stay. Do you think Kobe would have stayed if The Lakers signed Shaq? I don't think so. And although Kobe's relationship with Phil was better than it was before, Kobe never complained about Phil not being re-signed. Buss and Mitch were so far Kobe's a$$ that they would have done anthing Kobe asked for. Kobe saying nothing, means as much as Kobe making an opinion.









> I know its easy to say this.. But most anti-kobe people, should simply try picking up phil Jacksons book, or going to a normal public library and search past laker articles in the times and OCregiester... This is all there. Jackson even went into great lengths to talk about the conflict between Kobe and Shaq, but also said that management and Shaq couldnt come to an agreement about his contract.


 I have read Phil's book, "The Last Season" and know that Phil also had run-ins with Shaq, but I also know that Phil said that it was "an experience he would cherish forever". And I also know that eventhough Phil and Kobe got their relationship on the right track and Phil admitted that he was conditioned to put the blame on Kobe although sometimes it wasn't Kobe's fault; Phil also stated that his feud with Kobe had made Phil go to an analyst and that the change in their relationship was not enough for Kobe to trust Phil enough to win a Championship.









> As for his failures... Show me any team in recent history that has had as many problems with coaching staff and players as the lakers have, and had a great record? Everyone keeps saying... "LOOK AT DENVER, THEY LIKE RULE AND STUFF"... Yeah, I wish we had gotten a coach like that... Instead we got a guy who said from day one he is only keeping the seat worm. And we had a coach like Rudy, who spent the entire offseason training camp not running a SINGLE defensive drill... and then we spend the season wondering why there defense sucks so much?


That's why I think Phil did an excellent job with Kobe and Shaq. Winning 3 Championships with this dysfunctional family is impressive, to say the least. But the dislike from Kobe and Shaq just overpowered the willingness to share and win a Championship. If you think Phil just sat there and did nothing then you haven't been watching The Lakers. In fact, why is Phil's name being mentioned all over LA and people in The Laker organization? Do they all think that Phil's "non coaching" method would be good with Kobe and The Lakers now?









> Give it a few years, thats what rebuilding is.. Then if we suck you can rub it in our faces.


The advantage of being in The Lakers is their history of coming back from adversity to become a Championship team. The Lakers have that in their advantage, but it seems to me there has to be some major changes for that to happen (in player movement and player mentality) and that is going to be a long hard process.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

tatahbenitez said:


> $16 million contract? Are you sure about that? And is that a yearly salary, because Phil was still the highest paid coach at that time, going into his final year at $5 million. I live in the LA area and I was hearing that Phil was asking for 10 million a year, not $16 million. Maybe this coming season he could get that from The Lakers, but not last season. And Phil already knew The Lakers were not going to re-sign him after The Championship debacle. I don't even think The Lakers would have hired Phil back even if Phil took a paycut. The writing was already on The Laker walls. Change was coming, and Phil and Shaq were the ones outside looking in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It was 16 million a year, and yes I'm sure about that. Most of this information was talked about for months over at lakersground.net, however it was said that Jackson was actually looking more towards getting 9-10 a year instead. He shot high, and the lakers were not interested in going anywhere near that. Not to mention the Lakers, as said by Buss when Jackson left wanted to go more towards the run and guns showtime offense. An offense that isn't at all within the style of the triangle. If the price was good, the lakers would have taken him. Plain and simple, but the price however was no where near they wanted to go. And they wanted to change the style and tempo of the game. All per interviews with Buss on 570 am durning last offseason, and even more recently when they asked why they didnt go after Phil in the first place. 

There was never a demand for Kobe to leave made by Shaq. Not one paper that is worth reading, or one statement from either player said otherwise the entire time the trade neogoitations were on. Durning the playoffs, I'm sure you recall the time when Shaq dunked and went to the camera and said "Give me my money". (Very classy I know...). And then when asked later on what Shaq ment by that, his words were something like "Just working out some contract issues with management.". Or something to that effect. However, he didnt yell "GET RID OF KOBE!". Also, originally when he left he said that the lakers were disloyal to him and that there were to many conflicts of interest. Again, this is mainly per Phil Jacksons book, and statements made by Jacksons agent. You can assume he is lying.. Thats fine.. But I dont see why he would make it up to protect Kobe, especally considering how much bashing he actually did of Kobe in his book.. I dont think he was out ot make friends. 

That being said, there was a battle of egos. Rick Fox said in an interview that he tried to stop an arguement with Kobe and Shaq in the locker room once, and kobe turned to Shaq and said he was a *****. So you can see that he was very mature about it. The bottom line is, everyone wants to blame kobe.. But they are both egomaniacs... They are both crybabys.. And they both want lots of money... I'd just rather personally give the money to a young Kobe than an old Shaq.

Buss and Kupcake did pick Kobe. But being a Clipper fan.. as I also am... I was excited about the Verbal agreement Kobe made to signing with the Clippers. It was almost said and done, until the Lakers paniced when they learned that they could be losing both Shaq and Kobe. Would they have picked Kobe over Shaq, in a second.. But that didnt come until Shaq requested to be traded.

Kobe was offered the max AFTER..... Any public library will have news papers on this.. AFTER THE CLIPPERS.... offered him enough for him to verbally agree. At this point the clippers didnt even resign Corey yet because they thought they really had a chance at getting Kobe. Mike D. eventually said that Kobe almost burned them, because it seemed so likely they were going to get him, they actually told some of the "Soon to be left unresigned" players on the Clippers to start shopping.

I do ego's make it hard for both players to simply except they needed each other. Shaq and Kobe may have hated each other, but at the time Kobe didnt want to leave L.A. (Hence the Clippers), but no one knows for sure rather or not Kobe would have stayed if they traded or kept Shaq. I think if Buss told Kobe were keeping Shaq.. But we want you to take over, he might have considered it more. But it would have been tough, either way.. The lakers this year were going to suck. It would have been tough to replace either of them. Kobe was only honest with his intentions to laker management. He might have even said "Im going if Shaq stays". If he did, so be it. But ultimately if that is true, than Buss and Kupcake should take the fall for all those people who think they made a bad decision, because we didn't HAVE to resign Kobe. Our management choose to. 

You are correct about Phils comments on Kobe and Shaq. And I agree that Jackson did the best he could. And I agree that the Shaq and Kobe hate killed last season. 

I think the laker management is seeking Phil because the triangle offense is ran best by him. Not so much any other reason. I think Kobe has grown a lot this season. For the first time in his career he hasn't been a force in the NBA. ANd for the first time he has learned just how valueble a good coach (and dare I say team?) is. Ego or not, he has gotten put in check a few times this year, and its going to be a long offseason for it to get pounded in his head even more. 

I would like very much if Phil came back, because I think he has the power to get Kobe ready to become a team leader. And now that we are Shaqless, theres not going to be much ego battles going on because who is kobe going to fight with.... Atkins... :biggrin: Give us until 2007, we will be fine. The lakers are always fine. Every time we rebuild, every fan thinks it's the end of the world and every enemy comes over and rubs it in our face. Then a little later we win again. 

These things take time.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> I've been watching Kobe for years, and its the same stuff all the time w/ him. Crazy talent, selfish egotist.


did u miss 3 titles where he took a second role... they would have traded him if he wanted (he almost did) but he stayed and played his role and won 3 titles putting him ahead of every current star in the league except his teammate Shaq...

he mite be selfish as is Shaq, as is McGrady, as is AI, as was Jordan, but he shelved that selfishness 2 win titles...

1 more title than Duncan
3 more thanbasically every other star in the L


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

> It was 16 million a year, and yes I'm sure about that. Most of this information was talked about for months over at lakersground.net, however it was said that Jackson was actually looking more towards getting 9-10 a year instead. He shot high, and the lakers were not interested in going anywhere near that. Not to mention the Lakers, as said by Buss when Jackson left wanted to go more towards the run and guns showtime offense. An offense that isn't at all within the style of the triangle. If the price was good, the lakers would have taken him. Plain and simple, but the price however was no where near they wanted to go. And they wanted to change the style and tempo of the game. All per interviews with Buss on 570 am durning last offseason, and even more recently when they asked why they didnt go after Phil in the first place.


And I don't think Phil even was asking for $16 million a year. That would have been over 3x his current salary and there was no way any team would do that. The $10 million a year was still high, but not something that would be considered too high for the most decorated coach of this generation. But now that The Lakers are in disarray and in need of Phil, then I don't think $16 million is unreasonable.








> There was never a demand for Kobe to leave made by Shaq. Not one paper that is worth reading, or one statement from either player said otherwise the entire time the trade neogoitations were on. Durning the playoffs, I'm sure you recall the time when Shaq dunked and went to the camera and said "Give me my money". (Very classy I know...). And then when asked later on what Shaq ment by that, his words were something like "Just working out some contract issues with management.". Or something to that effect. However, he didnt yell "GET RID OF KOBE!".


 You must have also noticed that the relationship between Kobe and Shaq deteriorated to a point of no return last season. I never stated that Shaq officially wanted Kobe gone or vice versa, but both of them could not play together on the same team anymore. When Kobe became a free agent, he held all the cards because Buss and Kupchak were doing everything to try to keep Kobe. And if I remember correctly, they did offer Kobe the maximum salary from the start of negociations. But Kobe still didn't sign until after Shaq left. 









> Also, originally when he left he said that the lakers were disloyal to him and that there were to many conflicts of interest. Again, this is mainly per Phil Jacksons book, and statements made by Jacksons agent. You can assume he is lying.. Thats fine.. But I dont see why he would make it up to protect Kobe, especally considering how much bashing he actually did of Kobe in his book.. I dont think he was out ot make friends.


I don't assume Jackson is lying. I think it is true that there were conflicts of interest and I don't think he was making it up to protect Kobe. I think he was trying to say that the conflict of interest was all about Kobe.









> That being said, there was a battle of egos. Rick Fox said in an interview that he tried to stop an arguement with Kobe and Shaq in the locker room once, and kobe turned to Shaq and said he was a *****. So you can see that he was very mature about it. The bottom line is, everyone wants to blame kobe.. But they are both egomaniacs... They are both crybabys.. And they both want lots of money... I'd just rather personally give the money to a young Kobe than an old Shaq.


This is where we differ, because I always thought that Shaq was to foundation that held the team together in their Championship run. I know Kobe is younger, athletic, very talented, but in the 8 years I had seen him play, I did not see Kobe "mature" enough to know how to lead a team. Especially his play during last years Championship. I have always stated that Shaq and Phil have more clout than Kobe in terms of building a championship. But most Laker fans, Buss, and Kupchak only saw how Kobe looked like MJ and didn't see what effect Phil and Shaq had during the game. Sure Shaq was older and not motivated, but my feelings was that the conflict with Kobe was the main reason of Shaq's blase play. Look at what happened when Shaq left Kobe and look at how a Kobe led team fares.








> Kobe was offered the max AFTER..... Any public library will have news papers on this.. AFTER THE CLIPPERS.... offered him enough for him to verbally agree. At this point the clippers didnt even resign Corey yet because they thought they really had a chance at getting Kobe. Mike D. eventually said that Kobe almost burned them, because it seemed so likely they were going to get him, they actually told some of the "Soon to be left unresigned" players on the Clippers to start shopping.


Give me a qoute from a news source that Kobe was offered the max after The Clippers gave him a great deal for Kobe to verbally agree. The Lakers had already offered him max salary for 7 years. In hindsight, if Kobe did sign with The Clippers you would be seeing Kobe and The Clips be fighting for homecourt advantage for the playoffs.







> I think the laker management is seeking Phil because the triangle offense is ran best by him. Not so much any other reason. I think Kobe has grown a lot this season. For the first time in his career he hasn't been a force in the NBA. ANd for the first time he has learned just how valueble a good coach (and dare I say team?) is. Ego or not, he has gotten put in check a few times this year, and its going to be a long offseason for it to get pounded in his head even more.


 I think it's more than just the triangle offense that The Lakers need Phil. I have noticed that Phil can harness Kobe's ability to full advantage so the team could have the best chance to win. Kobe thought that Phil was holding him and his talent back. Now Kobe and The Lakers realize what Phil meant to the team and from looks of The Lakers season record Shaq was a also a big part of the teams success.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

and please stop talking about Kobes FG%... he was hurt most of the first half of the season... he got an ankle injury and had to rest 14 games allowing his other injuries to heel.... since then he is shooting above his career percentag w/o Shaq... 

next


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

shobe42 said:


> did u miss 3 titles where he took a second role... they would have traded him if he wanted (he almost did) but he stayed and played his role and won 3 titles putting him ahead of every current star in the league except his teammate Shaq...
> 
> he mite be selfish as is Shaq, as is McGrady, as is AI, as was Jordan, but he shelved that selfishness 2 win titles...
> 
> ...


Kobe didn't shelve his talent to win those Championships. The triangle offense was geared towards Shaq and Kobe was the official second option. The had even stated that the triangle was hindering his talents. But after Phil, Shaq, and the triangle left this past season, Kobe now realizes that the triangle helped him more than hurt him. That's why they started using it again during the season, and that's why Phil is rumored to be one of the coaching prospects for next year.

Kobe may not like the prospect of Phil coming back, but I think Phil is the best coach to harness and get the most out of Kobe's talent.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

tatahbenitez said:


> Kobe didn't shelve his talent to win those Championships. The triangle offense was geared towards Shaq and Kobe was the official second option. The had even stated that the triangle was hindering his talents. But after Phil, Shaq, and the triangle left this past season, Kobe now realizes that the triangle helped him more than hurt him. That's why they started using it again during the season, and that's why Phil is rumored to be one of the coaching prospects for next year.
> 
> Kobe may not like the prospect of Phil coming back, but I think Phil is the best coach to harness and get the most out of Kobe's talent.


u said it urself Kobe was a 2nd option... Kobe was at his best during his career offensively outside of the triangle... the triangle was put this year for the team not for kobe... it's about the team... i know u hate to realize Kobe would want something to happen to help his team...

Kobe this year only struggled early offensively due to injuries... a free running offense has always helped Kobe and is when he would unload


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

shobe42 said:


> u said it urself Kobe was a 2nd option... Kobe was at his best during his career offensively outside of the triangle... the triangle was put this year for the team not for kobe... it's about the team... i know u hate to realize Kobe would want something to happen to help his team...
> 
> Kobe this year only struggled early offensively due to injuries... a free running offense has always helped Kobe and is when he would unload


Yes, Kobe was the second option, but not by choice. At the end of last season Kobe was quoted saying "I'm tired of being a sidekick." Kobe did not want to be second option anymore and wanted to be the main man on the team..

The triangle was used again mainly to get Kobe easier shots. True it would also help the team, but it was mainly to make it easier for Kobe in the offense. Besides why put back the triangle when only one person in the starting lineup knows how to play within the system. Atkins, Butler, Odom, and Mihm would have to start over again. And it takes at least one season before players start to comprehend the intricacies of the triangle. It would be more of a step back for the other players in terms of learning the offense


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

kflo said:


> kobe's constantly bashed for what he does on offense, yet he's got a healthy ppfga, and the lakers are the 7th most efficient offensive team in the league this year. how can he constantly be bashed for his launching of bad shots and holding the ball too much when these are the facts??? the lakers are simply a horrendous defensive team.


Still no answer, but this owned the thread. It didn't go unnoticed. Like I said in response to the quote below, those things just don't happen. People like to make things up when looking at the situation irrationally. 



SeaNet said:


> Its not driven by my hate for him (which I admittedly have), its driven by watching him play, and watching what a horrible leader he is, the terrible shots he takes, and by how miserable the guys playing w/ him look. And how they avoid even looking at him at times because they know he's gonna launch a ridiculous 3 if they give him the ball.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

tatahbenitez said:


> Give me a qoute from a news source that Kobe was offered the max after The Clippers gave him a great deal for Kobe to verbally agree. The Lakers had already offered him max salary for 7 years. In hindsight, if Kobe did sign with The Clippers you would be seeing Kobe and The Clips be fighting for homecourt advantage for the playoffs.


Ok, here you go....



> Some in the organization are of the opinion that Bryant, at the time an unrestricted free agent weighing multimillion-dollar offers from both teams, reneged on an oral commitment to the Clippers after an 11th-hour, transcontinental phone conversation with Laker owner Jerry Buss.





> And then, after taking a phone call from Bryant telling them they'd lost the sweepstakes, they watched him re-sign with the Lakers in a televised news conference July 15. Accepting an offer of about $136 million over seven years, Bryant rejected the Clipper bid of about $106 million over six, the Laker offer more lucrative only because of rules in the NBA's collective bargaining agreement.





> Kobe Bryant met with the Clippers on Wednesday night as the team attempts to lure him via free agency, according to league sources.
> Although the Clippers did not confirm it, general manager Elgin Baylor said last week that he expected to meet with the Lakers guard this week.
> Because of the league's collective bargaining agreement, the Clippers and any other team can only offer him a six-year, $100 million deal. His current team, the Lakers, can offer him a seven-year, $130 million deal.





> The organization's relationship with Shaquille O'Neal appears unsalvageable. Malone apparently will retire. Bryant is thick with the Clippers and the Lakers' early competition for Fisher probably will come from the Houston Rockets and Toronto Raptors.



All these articles pretty much show that Kobe Bryant hadn't been offered anything by the Lakers yet. Simply because the rules dictate the lakers would have to pay a certain amount no matter what. The clippers offered a shorter deal, with lots of money. To make up for the difference in what the lakers would "In theory" have to do better than. They never made the offer until after Kobe was heard saying things like "I want to be a clipper", and that talks were good. And then when the lakers heard the Verbal agreement, they made there move. These are the best sources I can find at the moment, without actually going through an archive. If you'd like to prove me wrong, feel free. But I think anyone who was heavy into the discussions durning the summer all remember just how close Kobe came, or at least thought he could be come a clipper. 

Im not suggesting they were never going to offer him the money, but they play the game right. They took there time, let Kobe shop around, and figured out the best course of action in terms of rebuilding, etc. 

http://www.clublakers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21073 (also links to the old LAtimes article, no longer around. However, public librarys still have it referenced, and it is probably sitll on the site, but you can search for it if your that interested.)

http://www.clublakers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14847&highlight=kobe+agreement+clippers

http://www.clublakers.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14428&highlight=kobe+agreement+clippers

If you do a search in www.clublakers or lakerground.net, and put in Kobe and clippers, and look for the dates around the offseason you will find qoutes of probably 40-50 different articles. Each one will explain it better.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

tatahbenitez said:


> Yes, Kobe was the second option, but not by choice. At the end of last season Kobe was quoted saying "I'm tired of being a sidekick." Kobe did not want to be second option anymore and wanted to be the main man on the team..


so lets get this straight... Kobe decided he was tired of being a sidekick... that means at one point (about 5 years in which 3 titles were won) he accepted being a sidekick...

that means he accepted a role to play with in and help a team win. 

our as i said "shelved his ego for the team"

*Glad we Agree* :cheers:


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

CDRacingZX6R said:


> Ok, here you go....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, but here is an article dated July 12, 2004, 4 days before Kobe signed with The Lakers stating Buss had already offered Kobe $130 million for 7 years. The Lakers had given Kobe the offer before the 11th hour dealings with The Clippers the night before free agent signing July 15th. I think Kobe had both The Lakers and Clippers dancing for him and was waiting on who would give the most. Not just money, but probably other incentives that was not published. Like I said before Kobe held all the cards when he was a free agent and Buss with Mitch did everything they could to appease The Almighty Kobe. I still remember getting angry at Kobe because he had already the max offer with The Lakers, but he kept saying he wanted to test the free agent market. Either Kobe just wanted Buss and company to squirm or he wanted to squeeze everything from any team who wanted him.

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0704/158781.html








> Im not suggesting they were never going to offer him the money, but they play the game right. They took there time, let Kobe shop around, and figured out the best course of action in terms of rebuilding, etc.


Buss and Mitch were not taking their time with Kobe. Phil was gone and they had already made a deal with Miami to trade Shaq. How could they possibley be taking their time if Kobe was not to sign with them? The Lakers would be left with no superstars to lead the team. They had Kobe on their mind since the end of the Championships and if Kobe didn't realize this as a free agent then he was the most ignorant person alive. Heck, I even saw how much Buss and Mitch were falling all over themselves trying to get Kobe to sign with The Lakers. And I also realized how much Shaq and Phl were overlooked in the overall success of The Lakers too.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

shobe42 said:


> so lets get this straight... Kobe decided he was tired of being a sidekick... that means at one point (about 5 years in which 3 titles were won) he accepted being a sidekick...
> 
> that means he accepted a role to play with in and help a team win.
> 
> ...


Kobe's ego wasn't shelved, rather it wasn't big enough to want to be The Man, but it eventually got the better of him and The Lakers. Kobe had all the talent, but wanted everything too soon. I thought a gradual change from Shaq to Kobe was the idea situation. Like Magic and Kareem, but ego's got in the way. And because of that it has hindered The Lakers as a playoff contender (I can't say Championship contender because it's going to take a few more years before that happens).


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## RPGMan (Mar 31, 2005)

Hollywood14 said:


> --He couldn't take his team to the playoffs
> 
> --He couldn't take the Scoring Lead this season as most Laker fans projected last year
> 
> ...


again, since a lot of your post is just opinion, lets just establish what is clearly wrong:

He ranks #2 in turnovers...WRONG
His team has the worst Forced-Turnover in the history of the NBA...WRONG
He is the 2nd Laker star not to make it to the playoffs, Jabbar was first in 1975...WRONG
His shooting percentage this season is his worst in his entire career...WRONG

try doing some research first. Oh and by the way for all you TMac lovers, his FG% is worse than kobes!!


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

tatahbenitez said:


> Kobe's ego wasn't shelved, rather it wasn't big enough to want to be The Man, but it eventually got the better of him and The Lakers. Kobe had all the talent, but wanted everything too soon. I thought a gradual change from Shaq to Kobe was the idea situation. Like Magic and Kareem, but ego's got in the way. And because of that it has hindered The Lakers as a playoff contender (I can't say Championship contender because it's going to take a few more years before that happens).


so now Kobes ego wasn't big enuff... but it grew... im glad u got it all figured out

i don't know he has also seemed to be egocentric to me but he put it aside for the good of the team..

Kobe quote to Phil Jackson "U know how much I hate the ****ing triangle, but I'l do whatever we have to do."

Sounds to me like someone puttin there needs behind what the team wants... even if he does have a big mouth doing it.


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## Tyrellaphonte (Feb 21, 2004)

Hollywood14 said:


> --He settled his case by paying his accuser which I think made him look guilty because prior too all that, he vowed to fight the case all the way because he felt he was innocent.


That wasn't HIS DECISION come on man do you not pay attention? his accuser decided to settle for money and SHE didnt want to fight the case anymore....

Come on


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## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

Hollywood: Good research.

BUT, I think you made this post just to see how many RIDICULOUS defensive posts there would be . Keep them coming.

It really is baffling, and I guess somewhat pitiful ... to read this stuff.


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## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

Southern Baller Teezy said:


> That wasn't HIS DECISION come on man do you not pay attention? his accuser decided to settle for money and SHE didnt want to fight the case anymore....
> 
> Come on


Ahem ... we're talking about the CIVIL case --- HER case against him. If he was INNOCENT and it could be proven, he didn't have to offer to pay her AND her family off. His reputation and image was already tarnished. Going to court to clear his name would have been a good move ---- IF he was innocent.

*(He was afraid the rest of who he is would be exposed. All of the truth about HIS personal/sexual life would have come out.)*


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## Rhodes (Dec 9, 2004)

> *(He was afraid the rest of who he is would be exposed. All of the truth about HIS personal/sexual life would have come out.)*


Statistically, most civil suits are settled, whether guilty or not, particularly when they involve celebs. It makes sense for a number of reasons. The cost of defending a suit is often more then the cost of settlement, the continued media scrutiny will further damage the reputation and income, the time commitment, etc. And even if you defend the suit there is no guarantee you'll win. Settling is generally considered to be the smart move, which is why it almost always happens. I was sued once over a business dispute. Even though I was in the right I settled for $50,000 because it would have cost more than that to defend it. It just wasn't worth the grief or my time even though it made me crazy to have to write that check.

Anyway, It's just plain boneheaded to deduce that a settled lawsuit infers guilt.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Dynasty Raider said:


> It really is baffling, and I guess somewhat pitiful ... to read this stuff.


Similar to the ridiculous amount of defensive posts when there is a thread about Kobe being the 2nd coming of Jordan. That's when all the Kobe haters get defensive. It goes both ways, even though anyone rational enough to step back from it understands that the answer is in the middle. He isn't nearly the criminal minded selfish egotistical player that Kobe haters make him out to be, while he isn't nearly the best player in the game or as good as a prime Jordan.


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## Rhodes (Dec 9, 2004)

> while he isn't nearly the best player in the game


Not even _nearly_? 

By any objective criteria he ranks among the best in the game. I'd say that qualifies as "nearly".


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Similar to the ridiculous amount of defensive posts when there is a thread about Kobe being the 2nd coming of Jordan. That's when all the Kobe haters get defensive. It goes both ways, even though anyone rational enough to step back from it understands that the answer is in the middle. He isn't nearly the criminal minded selfish egotistical player that Kobe haters make him out to be, while he isn't nearly the best player in the game or as good as a prime Jordan.


i rarely see any posters make out Kobe to be the best player in the L or as good as MJ... usually they will have him in the argument which is not outrageous at all...

on the other hand, when rating players, Lebron fans and Wade fans are the most out of touch with reality...

also, off topic, are u gonna post ur battle in the finals soon?


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

shobe42 said:


> i rarely see any posters make out Kobe to be the best player in the L or as good as MJ... usually they will have him in the argument which is not outrageous at all...


When posters have Kobe in the arguement with MJ, that means they are comparing him equal to or as good as MJ. And right, now that is considered somewhat outrageous. 

I'm sure Kobe has the talent to be mentioned in the same breathe MJ, but he has not shown it consistantly enough to argue this statement. Especially this year when Kobe was supposed to be in the hunt for the MVP and have his stats raised above everyone elses. Although Kobe's stats have been good, it was not what most everyone expected them to be and that was after getting rid of his "crutch", Shaq. Combined that with a losing season and not making the playoffs, Kobe's basketball aura has been diminished.








> on the other hand, when rating players, Lebron fans and Wade fans are the most out of touch with reality...


Like Kobe was in the past, LeBron and Wade are going to be evaluated on their play right now and expectations in the future. They are both younger than Kobe and the only way they can be compared is by their potential.

Kobe fans are mad because both these players are showing just as much potential (Wade) or even more potential (LeBron) as Kobe was at their respective ages. That's what I see when I read LeBron or Wade posts. You have to admit Wade has shown that he can be just as good as Kobe, if not better and LeBron is doing things that no one has done at that age.




The only way Kobe can prove his critics wrong and to show these young guns that he is better than them is by winning, getting a Championship, and collect a MVP's. But this current season has not shown Kobe has risen above the "average" superstar into the upper eschelon of legends. Though Kobe is still young and can still prove himself in the next few years, it will also mean that Wade and Lebron will probably be improving themselves. Time will only tell, but it hasn't started out too well for the new leader of The Lakers.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

shobe42 said:


> also, off topic, are u gonna post ur battle in the finals soon?


Probably tonight or tomorrow afternoon, it isn't due until Friday, I was surprised how early Pay Ton posted.


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## Lakers Own (Mar 3, 2005)

Hollywood14 said:


> --He couldn't take his team to the playoffs
> 
> --He couldn't take the Scoring Lead this season as most Laker fans projected last year
> 
> ...



-- Kobe is second in scoring (wow THAT SUCKS!!)
-- No one was predicting Kobe would get the MVP
-- Look at Kobe's previous turn overs per game, they've ranged between around 2.5 to 3.5 his whole career
-- His TEAM has the worst forced turnover in history, TEAM, Kobe Bryant doesn't get every turnover for the Lakers
-- How does what Lebron James and Donyell Marshall do make Kobe Bryant worse? I guess what you're saying is that whenever a player gets his record broken he's no longer good anymore unless he breaks the new record?
-- Average players don't average 27, 6 and 6.


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## LakerLunatic (Mar 1, 2005)

Ouch Hollywood, you dont know anything man, nice try thou.


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