# Rafer Alston traded to Houston for Mike James



## :TorontoRaptors:

My sources tell me the deal is for Mike James and a 1st round pick


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## Theberge43

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Confrimed for Mike James on TSN ... no mention of the 1st round pick


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## MJG

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

The same sources that told you about Carter to New York as imminent and Marshall was going to Indiana?


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## Theberge43

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Confirmed both on Tsn.ca and realgm.com ... no mention of a 1st round pick.
What are your first impressions !? If we get a 1st maybe, but Alston vs James we seem to loose on the court and probably win on the attitude.


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## reHEATed

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/37458/20051004/raptors_trade_alston_to_houston_for_james/


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## SteveHartfiel

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

wow... that was unexpected... Im a student at brock, and I saw him this morning, so thats relaly surprising... if we got a 1st it would be excellent.


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## JuniorNoboa

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Confirmed on the fan590. But I did not hear anything about a first.

I little surprised by the deal. What are the terms of the James deal? I assume the hope is that Calderon / Ukic can be good pair by 07/08?


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## Theberge43

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

2 years left as per Sportsnet


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## CrookedJ

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

http://www.nba.com/raptors/news/PR_james_for_alston.html

Wow - damn my Rafer jersey now! not surprised though.


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## trick

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

straight up for Mike James only would suck...heck, even if a houston first-rounder was included it would still suck

and no rep for :TorontoRaptors: since other sports broadcasts have reported the same thing on the same day.

also, it's also been confirmed on NBA.com. i don't know how it could get more legit than that. Bye bye Alston


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## Benis007

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Mike James.. who? Mike James.. who?


I guess we can throw out those pictures of Rafer at media day... I was wondering why he looked so happy.

According to Storyteller Mike James is slated to make 3.3$ mil this season and has a player option at 3.6$ for next.

I have mixed feelings on this move.


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## trick

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Ukic better show up to the team two years from now or we'll be royally screwed from the PG position. :laugh:


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

WOW what ****ing stupid *** trade, OMG wow Rob Babcock is a ****ing moron holy ****


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

someone please tell me how this even begins to make sense??


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## Turkish Delight

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Wow, I can't believe this. I'm not too sure what to think right now. Mike James is a solid pro, but we definately better be getting a 1st rounder in this.


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## trick

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

listening to the Fan right now, and Chuck is, in a nutshell, saying good riddance to Alston...


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## Benis007

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



Turkish Delight said:


> Wow, I can't believe this. I'm not too sure what to think right now. Mike James is a solid pro, but we definately better be getting a 1st rounder in this.


I've looked around online and I haven't heard any mention of a 1st round pick.

I sure do hope one was included. Though not a huge difference in numbers between the two.


Rafer Alston
6-2 PG from Frenso State
14.2 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 6.4 apg in 34.0 minutes

Mike James
6-2 PG from Duquesne
12.4 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 2.9 apg in 25.6 minutes

Change in team outlook: -1.8 ppg, -0.3 rpg, and -3.5 apg.


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



Turkish Delight said:


> Wow, I can't believe this. I'm not too sure what to think right now. Mike James is a solid pro, but we definately better be getting a 1st rounder in this.


even that dosent matter cause the rockets are going to be a playoff team


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## trick

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

oh gawd, some people are thinking of putting Rose as the starting PG :dead:


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

I am listening to Chuck right now and they are saying that we saved $??? we didnt even pay Alston that much, and yeah we did get better at D but now who is our starting PG??? Goddamn it this annoys me soooo ****ing much


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## Turkish Delight

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Mike James will make 3.41 million this year, and 3.72 in the 2006/2007 season. Then he will be replaced with Ukic I'm guessing?


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## Turkish Delight

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



trick said:


> oh gawd, some people are thinking of putting Rose as the starting PG


No way. Calderon would start ahead of him. Mike James is a good player, one of the reasons why Houston made that strong push near the end of the season last year. Rose will not play PG next season.


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## Turkish Delight

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



madman said:


> even that dosent matter cause the rockets are going to be a playoff team


Either way, a 1st rounder is a 1st rounder. Three first rounders in next year's draft would go a long way in helping us compete in the future.


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



Turkish Delight said:


> No way. Calderon would start ahead of him. Mike James is a good player, one of the reasons why Houston made that strong push near the end of the season last year. Rose will not play PG next season.


 Starting a rookie at PG is going to be a ****ing stupid idea, look what happened with Alston when it was just his first year starting, imagine someone who has no experience in it


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## Benis007

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

I am thinking that this is a way to get Calderon more minutes.


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



Turkish Delight said:


> Either way, a 1st rounder is a 1st rounder. Three first rounders in next year's draft would go a long way in helping us compete in the future.


still, there has been no reports of it so we dont even get that


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## Turkish Delight

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



madman said:


> Starting a rookie at PG is going to be a ****ing stupid idea, look what happened with Alston when it was just his first year starting, imagine someone who has no experience in it


I meant that even Calderon would start ahead of Rose. Mike James will be our starting PG this season.


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## Turkish Delight

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



madman said:


> still, there has been no reports of it so we dont even get that


Yeah, I'm keeping my fingers crossed right now.


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## trick

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

is the length of Alston's contract that much disputable? this trade just proves to me no matter how much of a headcase rafer was perceived to be, there will be a team that would risk acquiring him in a trade based on how productive his stats looked to be. 

my main beef with this trade is that when a 5-year deal was given to alston, i assumed babcock would be patient with him and watch him develop into a high-calibre pg, and yet he gave up on him after one year.


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## mysteral

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Sorry guys but... this is a great move !


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



Turkish Delight said:


> I meant that even Calderon would start ahead of Rose. Mike James will be our starting PG this season.


 That is an awful idea, he is going to be awful. I can tell you right now ESPN can see in the future IMO cause we deserve to be 30th right now


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## trick

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



madman said:


> Starting a rookie at PG is going to be a ****ing stupid idea, look what happened with Alston when it was just his first year starting, imagine someone who has no experience in it


look at it this way, whomever gets the starting pg between james and calderon, the team will depend more on bosh to score, which is something that we all want right?


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## Turkish Delight

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

So will Rafer be able to start for the Rockets? As it stands, I personally think that they will have him coming off the bench.


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



Turkish Delight said:


> So will Rafer be able to start for the Rockets? As it stands, I personally think that they will have him coming off the bench.


no he is better then Ward and LUe


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## Turkish Delight

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

I really don't know what to think. If we get a 1st rounder in this, it's a great deal. If not, I really don't know what to say.


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## Turkish Delight

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



madman said:


> no he is better then Ward and LUe


Where have you been? Lue plays on the Hawks. Bobby Sura is the Rockets' starting PG.


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## trick

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

for what it's worth, Jack Armstrong gives a :greatjob: to this move


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## Turkish Delight

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



trick said:


> for what it's worth, Jack Armstrong gives a :thumbsup: to this move


This is all on the Fan right now?


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



Turkish Delight said:


> Where have you been? Lue plays on the Hawks. Bobby Sura is the Rockets' starting PG.


yeah my bad, i forgot i am just ****ing pissed


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



Turkish Delight said:


> This is all on the Fan right now?


 no but eric smith will be


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## Benis007

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



mysteral said:


> Sorry guys but... this is a great move !


Great move for the Rockets!

we really do deserve the 30th spot now.. maybe Babs was just trying to lock up a good lottery spot.


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## trick

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



Turkish Delight said:


> This is all on the Fan right now?


yes. chuck is trying to catch everyone's reaction to the trade.


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## Petey

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Honestly I think Mike James is a very underrated player. Pretty good offensive, stand out defensively.

-Petey


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Listen people Ukic isnt coming to toronto or else he would have signed with us instead of going to europe

he was going to get guarrented money


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Babcock is on


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

We started the deal not houston


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## Benis007

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Rob babcock is on the line with swirsk.

Babs said that after evaluating the team. Ukic coming here in 2 years, Calderon coming in.
synopsis.

1- when babs brought in Rafer last year they only had 1 healthy PG (milt)
2- babs said we need to build with youth
3- james is a great 3-pt shooter, and his contract fits in with future plans 38% from 3-pt.75% from the line.
4- staff decision.
5- james is a combo guard easily plays both 1 and 2.
6- defensively he is much better than rafer.
7- offensively he can hit the open jump shot.


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## trick

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



madman said:


> Listen people Ukic isnt coming to toronto or else he would have signed with us instead of going to europe
> 
> he was going to get guarrented money


the 4 year contract Ukic had recently signed with Tau Ceramica has a player option after the second year


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Sam Mitchell had alot to do with the decision


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Mike James Had Yao Ming And Tmac That Is Why He Played Well :curse:


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## JuniorNoboa

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



trick said:


> look at it this way, whomever gets the starting pg between james and calderon, the team will depend more on bosh to score, which is something that we all want right?


James will probably look to score more then Alston did, unless his game changes alot.


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## trick

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Rob Babcock
-thought a long-term deal was a good situation for both rafer and the team at the time it was signed
-after drafting roko and acquiring calderon, rob felt he needs to relieve the team of any long-term contract it can
-a staff decision to go on with this trade (yes, sam was involved in this trade)
-thinks mike james is a different player than rafer i.e. run the offense and hit the open jump shot :whoknows:
-thinks rafer took the trade well, professionally
-even though he looks to improve the team year-round, he won't be actively pursuing anything at the moment


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## d_umengan

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

i actually like the move:

james has two years on his contract.. 07-08 is the year we only have our rookies on contract... gettin rid of rafer who will be 30 by then only makes sense... 

i dunno the exact numbers but i thin know we'll have about 25mill free that year.. not includin our draft picks this year.. and the following year

i know rafer was a good pg.. but this should give our younger guys more pt.. calderon wil have a better chance at becoming a starter pg... and pretty much assures ukic of a spot on the team in two years....

bosh and co wil have more on their shoulders... and now we'll have our young nucleus already gettin to play more together and get more chemistry....

i woulda liked a pick.. but its ok.. we get a solid contributor for two years

oh.. and if we're not playoff bound this year.. .we might as well just get our young guys playing... we lose more.. but we'll be better for it next year.. and in the draft.. where we might be able to get MORRISON or GAY!

sorry guys... but babcock is committed to his COMPLETE YOUTH MOVEMENT


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## trick

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



JuniorNoboa said:


> James will probably look to score more then Alston did, unless his game changes alot.


oh i agree, but i doubt james will get the same amount of minutes that alston did. in fact, both calderon and james will probably play the same amount of minutes based on this team wanting to develop its young talent.


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



JuniorNoboa said:


> James will probably look to score more then Alston did, unless his game changes alot.


THANK YOU

Alston

2004-05 Statistics 
PPG 14.2 
RPG 3.5 
APG 6.4 
SPG 1.48 
BPG .09 
FG% .414 
FT% .740 
3P% .357 
MPG 34.0 


James
PPG 11.8 
RPG 2.8 
APG 3.6 
SPG .88 
BPG .08 
FG% .441 
FT% .752 
3P% .386 
MPG 25.1


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## CrackerJack

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

im stoked we picked up alston now we have an improvement at the point for when sura is benched or injured. as for the raps WTF?


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## Benis007

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

we're going to miss that 0.01 blocks Rafer brought.

Jokes.

it seems as though James is a better shooter than Rafer, we definately needed some help from behind the arc with the loss of buggy eyes Donyell.


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## McFurious

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Who the heck is Mike James?


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## trick

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

from what i got from babcock, he's looking to really make a push for the 2007-2008 offeason. 

my question is that will rafer's contract be that much of an issue by then?


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

yeah but -3 assists, well who are we going to get them from now?


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## trick

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



Benis007 said:


> it seems as though James is a better shooter than Rafer, we definately needed some help from behind the arc with the loss of buggy eyes Donyell.


next to defense, the most important thing i want this team to improve on is to not rely so much on the 3ball.


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



trick said:


> next to defense, the most important thing i want this team to improve on is to not rely so much on the 3ball.


 It is going to be a long 2 years and hopefully the fans dont stop supporting them but if you are a casual fan and you like alston (which alot of people do) and you hear they trade him for Alston for some guy that you probably never heard of why the **** would you still watch them???


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## trick

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



madman said:


> It is going to be a long 2 years and hopefully the fans dont stop supporting them but if you are a casual fan and you like alston (which alot of people do) and you hear they trade him for Alston for some guy that you probably never heard of why the **** would you still watch them???


the casual fan likes alston now? 

anyways, i doubt this move has any barring on attendance substantially.


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## Benis007

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



trick said:


> next to defense, the most important thing i want this team to improve on is to not rely so much on the 3ball.


Great point, though I think that part of the reason we relied on it so much is because we were trying to play catch up.


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



trick said:


> the casual fan likes alston now?
> 
> anyways, i doubt this move has any barring on attendance substantially.



yes, i saw soo many alston jersey when i went to games, i think next to bosh he was tied with Rose for current players


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## trick

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

but we're all missing the REAL question...

what will this do to rafer's fantasy value?


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## Turkish Delight

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



Benis007 said:


> Great point, though I think that part of the reason we relied on it so much is because we were trying to play catch up.


That's another good point.


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

throught the roof, if he can get 6+ assists here imagine with Yao Tmac and Swift


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## Turkish Delight

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



madman said:


> yeah but -3 assists, well who are we going to get them from now?


Well I'm guessing he didn't get as many assists because there were times when he was forced to play the 2, with Sura playing the PG position. Hopefully those assist numbers will improve this year.


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## Turkish Delight

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Wow, 25 people are viewing this thread. I don't think it's been this many since Vince Carter got traded.


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## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



Turkish Delight said:


> Well I'm guessing he didn't get as many assists because there were times when he was forced to play the 2, with Sura playing the PG position. Hopefully those assist numbers will improve this year.


 well if he plays half the minutes that Alston gets and we dont know how Calderon is going to pan out so we will probably have a high TO/Ast ratio


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## trick

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

i'm still trying to assess *my* pros and cons to this trade

pros
-james a better defender
-gives more PT to calderon to develop on
-alston is perceived to be a headcase
-frees up an extra 4-5 mil in capsapce in 2007-2008

cons
-alston is more talented
-gave up on him too soon
-puts more pressure on the ukic situation


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## c_dog

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

well, if anything at least mike james is going to be hot commodity in fantasy leagues.. he'll most likely be starting and knowing mike james, he's going to be scoring.. a lot.. and he's going to be shooting a lot of 3's. can you say damon jones #2? well, cept he'll be shooting at much lower fg% but the made 3's are money.

horrid for the team though. raptors are officially tanking for the next couple years. their best player outside bosh and rose is morris peterson.... that's just sad. it's not like rose is a star either.


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## MonsterBosh

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Let's stop all this hero worship and playoff mania ... and let's get real. The Raptors are rebuilding and that is obviously a 3 -5 year project now. Yes, Babcock is aiming to have a solid team for the 2007-08 season ... and if your basketball fetish needs instant gratification, you are looking at the wrong team in the Raptors .. try New Jersey.

Alston was nothing but a head case and more trouble obviously coming. The Raptor coaching staff identified this problem and it was resolved quickly. Now we can all watch the rookie Raptors developing and giving internet advice to Babcock, Sam et al on how to run the team. After all who knows more about basketball than we do ... LOL ... !!!!


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## Junkyard Dog13

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

like the move, james is a better defender and we neaded a good defender at PG, man I wish we had gotton top 3 in the draft and taken Deron.


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## Benis007

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

I think the swing as far as stats goes both ways.

Realistically Rafer should be taking less shots (therefore less ppg) and passing the ball more to the afforementioned stars that already play for the rockets. But we all know about those brain farts where Rafer Alston becomes Rafer Jordan and he decides to jack up a prayer. I just read on the Rockets board that Alston is a good 3-pt shooter which i think is an overstatement. He is average at best from behind the arc.

Hopefully James takes to the rule of the land in Toronto and fits into Mitchell's offense better than Rafer. *Hopefully this move will result in more looks from CB4.*


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## Theberge43

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Can't wait to hear what Mike James has to say on the subject ... this trade is all about attitude.


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## Benis007

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



c_dog said:


> horrid for the team though. raptors are officially tanking for the next couple years. their best player outside bosh and rose is morris peterson.... that's just sad. it's not like rose is a star either.


What about Villaneuva and Graham? You gotta expect SOMETHING from two top 20 Draft Picks.


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## Turkish Delight

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



Theberge43 said:


> Can't wait to hear what Mike James has to say on the subject ... this trade is all about attitude.


He's been around a lot so I don't think he should be too down about it. Then again, he is leaving a very good team, and joining a developing team that may only want him before they are actually able to compete.


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## Benis007

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

It kinda chaps my *** that we couldn't squeeze at least a 2nd rounder out of them. Maybe coulda picked up some random Euro or someone that slipped.


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## Turkish Delight

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



Benis007 said:


> It kinda chaps my *** that we couldn't squeeze at least a 2nd rounder out of them. Maybe coulda picked up some random Euro or someone that slipped.


Yeah, I guess a 1st rounder would be asking for too much. But I think we're doing the Rockets a big favour with this. 
It's kind of ironic if you think about it, because one of the main reasons Alston is being traded is to save money, when Babcock is the one who gave him that long term deal in the first place.
Then again, going into that off-season we only had one point guard and that was Milt Palacio. :eek8:


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## Turkish Delight

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

I see a lot of guests in this thread. Stop lurking and sign up now! It's free!


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## MonsterBosh

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

There is absolutely no pressure on the Raptors to make the playoffs for at least the next two or three seasons. They will rebuild with draft picks and strategic trades to create a solid team that can challenge in 3 - 5 years ... and that is what everybody in the NBA recognizes as the amount of time necessary to produce a playoff team.

If the Raptors hope to keep Bosh, they must make the commitment now to rebuild the team around him and provide the fans with a product that is competitive and satisfying. Just look at the roster remaining for the 2007-8 season and it will become obvious to you that we are only beginning to see the New Look Raptors.

If a non-playoff team is not worthy of your basketball adulation then you will suffer in your immaturity and pain. Real basketball aficionados will relish what is happening and enjoy Raptor basketball as the rookies struggle and develop ... while those that need the instant gratification of hero worship will suffer and cry.

I suspect that Bosh did not want Alston and his streetball antics either ... and what Bosh wants, the Raptor organization listens intently ... !!!!


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## JuniorNoboa

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

I am sure SOME (not many of you here) people who are criticizing this trade, were also criticizing us for signing Rafer to a long-term deal for $4.5M.

So what is it people? If Rafer is such a good player that we get killed in a deal, then he must be worth $4.5M.


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## Turkish Delight

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

So I'm guessing Bosh is going to get A LOT more touches?


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## billfindlay10

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

I am not sure how I feel about this trade...James can be a chucker at times just like Alston, but he does play better "D"...Alston's assist numbers may go down...T-MAC has the ball in his hands alot of the time!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Divine Spammer

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

That trade has come fron nowhere, hasn't it? 

We knew babs was shopping him all summer, but I thought he'll give him a chance this year. 

I can't say anything about the trade, because I havn't seen them both, actually. 
I have two questions:
How's James as a playmaker?
Can he play D for us?


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## JuniorNoboa

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

With James, Graham, Mo-Pete being our core-defenders on the perimeter we have moved from a below-average to well above average on D out in the perimeter.

There is still El Matador Rose.


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## McFurious

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



JuniorNoboa said:


> With James, Graham, Mo-Pete being our core-defenders on the perimeter we have moved from a below-average to well above average on D out in the perimeter.
> 
> There is still El Matador Rose.


My guess Rose will be next... if we can trade him for a Vet centre to help out Hoffa ied be happy.

My feeling is Babs prob went after Sura but since he had what looks like a career ending injury the plan changed.


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## SkywalkerAC

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



Turkish Delight said:


> Where have you been? Lue plays on the Hawks. Bobby Sura is the Rockets' starting PG.


Where have you been? Bobby Sura's career might be over.


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## speedythief

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

That'll teach me to go to class. I'm going to have to get a laptop attached to me like an umbilical cord.

I'm still pondering this trade. Thoughts coming up soon.


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## trick

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

looking back at the days James started for the Celtics in 03-04:
55 games, 10.7 PPG, 42 FG%, .38 3PT%, 4.4 APG, 1.3 SPG, 1.5 TOPG
attempted 510 shots in thoes 55 games which equates to 9.3 shots per game

rafer on the other hand played in 80 (started in 78) games last year and attempted 974 shots all season, which equates to 12.1 shots per game.

and for what it's worth, based on the rockets first round series agains the mavs last season, james looked to be a great spark off the bench and was very resilient throughout the whole series. at times he looked to be a better option than bob sura.


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## ATLien

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Okay, I think Rob Babcock is one of the worst GM's in the league.. but Toronto gets the better of this trade, IMO. 

Rafer Alston.. is jut not very good. Mike James isn't great, but he at least is decent.


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## JuniorNoboa

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



speedythief said:


> That'll teach me to go to class. I'm going to have to get a laptop attached to me like an umbilical cord.
> 
> I'm still pondering this trade. Thoughts coming up soon.


I'm the same way. It's clear Alston is more talented, but there are several other factors that might make the deal decent for us.


----------



## ansoncarter

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

neither one was going to lead us anywhere anyways

hopefully James stinks


----------



## ozzzymandius

HEY GANG !!!
Long time no see ... Actually I check the boards almost every day, just never have much to say. Good to see all the old timers (like me) are still hanging around.

Anyway ... I LIKE this trade.. I loved Skip when he came on board a few years ago. I was sad to see him go and was extremely excited to see him come back. But I was very disappointed with all the drama and disfunction he brought in with him. 

So yes... I'll trade the disctractions for a slightly less talented guard who will bring commitment, defence, mental stability and focus that I can bank on night in and night out. 

Good Move Babs!!
ps... where's 'Bullocks' with his super lengthy posts (that I still read every word of) ??


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## crimedog

and we save a dump load of money. no matter what rafer is now, he's not going to be anything in five years, when he's 34. 

this clears up a lot for the future and undoes what appears to have been a mistake from last offseason. 

we need to keep adding talent. add two more first rounders this year, see what the situation with ukic is this offseason and keep building around bosh. 

by 2007-8, we should have a lot of talent and flexibility. then we can decide how valuable mo and matt b are and whether or not to pick up the option on hoffa. 

2 of the malcontents from last year are gone. maybe throw aaron in with rose for penny and a first at the trade deadline (waive him immediately) and we can even have a pretty clean slate starting next year.


----------



## speedythief

Ok....


The timing of this trade was good, I think. Trading him during last years flare-ups would've been a poor choice. Waiting until now was the right thing to do if we thought he could hurt our team chemistry again this year.


Rafer is very talented but he didn't figure into our teams long-term plans, I suppose. Our guards of the future are Calderon, Ukic, and anyone we might look to add or draft in the near future. James is a placeholder.


James helps us continue our transition into a solid, defensive, hard-working team. He fits the bill though he's obviously not the right age. He's not a pure point guard but he has a good reputation so hopefully he's willing to help us feed the bigs and run our halfcourt set. He seems to be in a similar vein to Calderon which is interesting.


Alston's skills were fastbreak passing and finishing along with three-point shooting and speed. James has similar skills. He isn't the floor general Alston (could be), but he's about equal in terms of scoring and he will be more willing, hopefully, to help us spread the ball around. Chemistry issues should be resolved so long as Rose is ok-computer with the team.


James' contract played a huge role in this trade. His two-year contract fits our plans nicely. We create even more cap space for the summer of 07, which is a bonus.


----------



## lucky777s

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

I was shocked to hear the news. And I'm still digesting it. But for now:

Mike James is a much better fit for us. He is a solid combo guard who plays far better D and is a reliable outside shooter. Far better mentor for our young players, and will fit in better with our vets as well. Raps will be major players in 2007 free agent market and beyond. If our core of Bosh,Charlie,Joey,Calderon,and Hoff are looking good by then we should have our pick of guys who could come in and be the final pieces we need.

Both Rafer and Mike are backup PGs in the nba. Rafer was forced into a starting role in Toronto and couldn't handle it. Rafer has better tools in some ways but he was clearly not a creator despite his assist numbers. And his D is just dreadful.

This move tells me the Raps LOVE Calderon and think he is the real deal. Alvin seems to think he will be able to contribute this year so that provides some insurance as well.

I still think the Raps will pick up a young PG from another nba camp after cuts are made. The guys in our camp are all longshots imo.


----------



## ansoncarter

James is a bit of a headcase too isn't he?

we traded one headcase starter who should be a backup, for another headcase starter who should be a backup

at least James is out of Toronto sooner


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## sheefo13

Mike James > Alston


That includes contracts.


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## ansoncarter

sheefo13 said:


> Mike James > Alston
> 
> 
> That includes contracts.


Mike James+Rafer Alston=who cares

we should have traded Alston for a completely useless scrub and another draftpick

trading for a player of value, who won't be here in 2 years, seems so pointless


----------



## mysteral

Anyone sees Mike during the playoffs ? He played really well...


----------



## speedythief

So James starts? He splits his minutes with Calderon?

Funny to trade one reserve-made-starter for another reserve-made-starter.


----------



## nwt

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

What the hell?


----------



## SkywalkerAC

VERY interesting move...for us anyway. We were all wondering what was going to happen with Rafer this season- how he would deal with another losing season with Mitchell getting on his case. I was interested to see how it would play out but I also a little pleased to see him go. I don't think we're getting the better player back but coupled with contracts and our developmental point guard situation, I think it's a pretty good move. 

Of course it's also a pretty good move for the Rockets. I fully expect Rafer to start for the Rockets, fall in line behind Yao and Tmac, make a killing of wide-open, set-shot 3s, and generally be a pretty stable point guard.

I like Mike James though. He's more explosive than Rafer IMO. He's can play a role and fit in with a team. He's not a great playmaker but he doesn't turn the ball over. He's a pretty good defender. He's a good scorer that can play without the ball and milk the pick and role.

Is James going to make us a playoff contender? Of course not. Is Mike James and Jose Calderon a better point guard rotation than we've had in years? Yes, it is. Does he fit with our rebuilding mode despite being a veteran? Yes, he does.

The contract situation is very nice indeed. I'll be very happy to be left with Jose and Roko after Mike's two years. Babs is going for it and plans on being a dominant free agent player that summer. I like it.

Another aspect of this trade is where it leaves us in terms of adding a third point guard. I think we're about 100% more attractive to a young point guard with Rafer gone and James in. There are going to be 3 new point guards on our team next year in all likelihood and the legit possibility of winning the starting spot should be a draw. Is anyone else pondering how Jay Williams might be viewing all this, especially seeing as Houston was his other main suitor? In any case I think adding a veteran in James opens up a spot for a younger player- Pack can get packing. 

No, this doesn't help our cause this season but I don't think it hurts it that much either. The Rockets, on the other hand, are going to be damn good this season.


----------



## toiletscrubber

*Rafer traded for Mike James*

Remember last yr when Bob Sura went down, the stratch that Mike James had when he averages like 20 points per game, if he can do half of dat for the whole season, this will be a heck of a trade. Basically this is giving up a better talent (potential wise) for a player wif better defense and attitude. Giving up some assist numbers for a player wif better 3 point percentage And showing how much confidence they have in Jose Calderon.


----------



## wind161

everyone covered everything I want to say... I completely understand why Rob pull the trigger and how it is beneficial to the team in the long run... now....

I'm sure consensus is that Alston has way more talent and potential than Mike James... and in this league, that has lots of weight (see Curry's heart condition vs talent) 

You are telling me you couldn't even squeeze a 2nd rounder out of this?!?! how much is a late 2nd rounder worth?!?!?! good gracious... we could have at least use it to package in future trades or moving up or down on the draft.... but god.... straight up is pathetic... at least throw in a filler that we can just waive.... AAARGHHH

edit: the intent of the post was clouded by my emotions. I wanted to highlight the fact that the current trade has benefits to both parties... however, it is perceived to be tilted slightly towards Rocket's favour. It is IMHO, that this perception is attributed to Babcock's negotiation skills, or there lack of.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

I also like how this sets us up to split minutes pretty evenly at every position and not a lose much defensively over the course of the game. 

The Calderon factor also can't be stressed enough. It really does seem that Babs and co expect him to be starting by the end of the season and James will be a great backup for him. Babs is going to look good with three rookies having substantial contributions- see the Bulls last season for a good comparison.


----------



## Turkish Delight

ansoncarter said:


> Mike James+Rafer Alston=who cares
> 
> we should have traded Alston for a completely useless scrub and another draftpick
> 
> trading for a player of value, who won't be here in 2 years, seems so pointless


You're right. Teams must have been lined up offering Babcock draft picks left and right.


----------



## MonkeyBallZJr

James is just not good enough to start, Calderon is inexperienced at this point.


----------



## trick

Original ScarFace said:


> James is just not good enough to start, Calderon is inexperienced at this point.


let's just get this out in the open right now, James was not acquired for his services in the future. The 2 years left on his contract was the definitive factor into trading him with alston's 5-year contract, to go along with rose's 2 year expiring contract, peterson's 2 year expiring contract, eric williams' 2 year expiring contract, etc.

and this is the perfect opportunity for calderon to develop in as well, showing how much confidence the staff has in him.


----------



## speedythief

Mike James was accused of not passing to Yao enough. A bit concerning.


----------



## butr

James is not a headcase, is a good leader, a good on the ball defender, is well-liked and has a contract expiring when Mo P and Rose's expire or ~$25 million.

Rafer is only one year younger, unstable, shoots too much for his percentage to warrant it and cannot defend on the ball. 

Great deal for the Raps all around.

Also, it is good to know that Rob recognised that his first FA signing was not working out, and rather than force it and force it, he did something to fix it. This will better his rep.


----------



## trick

speedythief said:


> Mike James was accused of not passing to Yao enough. A bit concerning.


Mike James is also known to be a combo guard, rather than your traditional point guard, so i hope no one expecting him to become one this season.


----------



## McFurious

blowuptheraptors said:


> *Also, it is good to know that Rob recognised that his first FA signing was not working out, and rather than force it and force it, he did something to fix it. This will better his rep.*




I think this point is a key one.


----------



## speedythief

trick said:


> Mike James is also known to be a combo guard, rather than your traditional point guard, so i hope no one expecting him to become one this season.


Doesn't bother me because I know he can defend point guards. Combo guards who can't defend are the bad ones. We can compensate for a lack of entry passing in various ways, utilizing guys like Rose more.


----------



## speedythief

McFurious said:


> [/B]
> 
> I think this point is a key one.


I agree as well. I think it shows that Babcock doesn't have too much pride. Hopefully we are willing to give Hoffa time, though. Hate to see him treat a draft pick the same way he'd treat a free agent signing.


----------



## Turkish Delight

I think Mike James' assist numbers can improve this season because as our point guard, he will be relied upon to carry the team. Whereas last year, he didn't necessarily have that duty since the ball was constantly in Tracy McGrady's hands.


----------



## TRON

Good addition by subtraction trade

I'm not overwhelmed by Mike James, but I think he can be that tough, defensive minded backup that the Raptors needed. 

I'm more excited with the appearent confidence that the Raptors management are showing in Jose Calderon...did his play in this past Euro Games make Rafer expendable?


----------



## Benis007

I think that the most telling stat brough up here is the fact that James takes 4 less shots a game than Rafer.

Thats four more touches for someone else on the court.

The only thing that suprised me was the fact that I keep hearing that Alston is one of the 10 best PGs in the league and the best deal available was Mike James and nothing.

The deal was a financial one, the fact that James comes off the books in 2 years, (when he'll be 32) is THE offseason for the raps.

*MARK MY WORDS - Rose + MoPete + for a Vet Center is the next deal in the works, if not this trade deadline, next offseason*


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## speedythief

TRON said:


> Good addition by subtraction trade
> 
> I'm not overwhelmed by Mike James, but I think he can be that tough, defensive minded backup that the Raptors needed.
> 
> I'm more excited with the appearent confidence that the Raptors management are showing in Jose Calderon...did his play in this past Euro Games make Rafer expendable?


Based on Babcock's comments I think having Calderon now and Ukic in the future gives them a lot of confidence, at least enough to drop a starting guard and pick-up a rotation player, so yes.


----------



## Turkish Delight

Benis007 said:


> I think that the most telling stat brough up here is the fact that James takes 4 less shots a game than Rafer.
> 
> Thats four more touches for someone else on the court.
> 
> The only thing that suprised me was the fact that I keep hearing that Alston is one of the 10 best PGs in the league and the best deal available was Mike James and nothing.
> 
> The deal was a financial one, the fact that James comes off the books in 2 years, (when he'll be 32) is THE offseason for the raps.
> 
> *MARK MY WORDS - Rose + MoPete + for a Vet Center is the next deal in the works, if not this trade deadline, next offseason*


Any possible examples, because I really don't see it hapenning.


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## slash_010

Bring on Alvin Williams to lead us back to the playoffs!


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## Benis007

Turkish Delight said:


> Any possible examples, because I really don't see it hapenning.


Kinda homer call but i don't see why the Hornets wouldn't sign and trade for Magloire


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## TRON

I am not too familiar with Mike James' game but if he can run a simple pick and roll with Chris Bosh, he will already be an improvement over Rafer.

So overall, in one year we went from...Rafer/Milt to Jose/James/?

I am looking forward to the new look point guards


----------



## Turkish Delight

Benis007 said:


> Kinda homer call but i don't see why the Hornets wouldn't sign and trade for Magloire


I remember trying to do some trades involving Rose and either Mo Pete or Eric Williams going to New Orleans in return for Magloire. Unfortuantely the salaries just don't match, and the Hornets don't have a lot of fillers that they can throw in there to balance it out.


----------



## speedythief

Turkish Delight said:


> I remember trying to do some trades involving Rose and either Mo Pete or Eric Williams going to New Orleans in return for Magloire. Unfortuantely the salaries just don't match, and the Hornets don't have a lot of fillers that they can throw in there to balance it out.


If they are still way under the cap we won't have to make it match that close, either.

But is Magloire the best we can do?


----------



## kamego

I like this trade for the Raptors. Mike James is a defensive PG who can help win games.


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## TRON

I can't believe that Houston would be willing to take on Rafer and his contract, I can't wait to see how that works out with T-Mac :biggrin: :biggrin:


----------



## Petey

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



madman said:


> Mike James Had Yao Ming And Tmac That Is Why He Played Well :curse:


He also played well with the Bucks and the Pistons before that. People saw what he could do when used right and he earned that big contract.

-Petey


----------



## Benis007

speedythief said:


> If they are still way under the cap we won't have to make it match that close, either.
> 
> But is Magloire the best we can do?


Tonight I am going to check out my NBA LIVE to see what deal makes sense. I like Magloire because he's young, from Toronto and very talented. The injuries do scare me a bit.

I'm going to start another thread to see what suggestions everyone's got on a Center we should go after in the coming seasons.


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## Benis007

TRON said:


> I can't believe that Houston would be willing to take on Rafer and his contract, I can't wait to see how that works out with T-Mac :biggrin: :biggrin:


We know for sure they have one thing in common.

*THEY BOTH HATE VC!!*

:cheers:


----------



## The_Franchise

James is very similar to Jerry Stackhouse, except shorter. Would rather take a circus shot than make a pass, but he can still knock down tough shots. Aggressive defender but not necessarily a very effective one. Amazing ability to finish and has a very solid mid range jump shot. In short, he loves taking shots and hates passing/creating. Ideally, you want him coming off your bench as an offensive sparkplug.

Mike James has publicly stated he will opt out of his contract at the end of this year. He wants to "get paid".


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## speedythief

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> James is very similar to Jerry Stackhouse, except shorter. Would rather take a circus shot than make a pass, but he can still knock down tough shots. Aggressive defender but not necessarily a very effective one. Amazing ability to finish and has a very solid mid range jump shot. In short, he loves taking shots and hates passing/creating. Ideally, you want him coming off your bench as an offensive sparkplug.
> 
> Mike James has publicly stated he will opt out of his contract at the end of this year. He wants to "get paid".


He's got an opt-out for the end of this year? Hmm.


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## drlove_playa

Babcock is a moron. There is no doubt in my mind now that he is going to be fired within the coming months and the raps will finish with the worst record in the NBA. Welcome the new Clippers of the nba.


----------



## The_Franchise

speedythief said:


> He's got an opt-out for the end of this year? Hmm.


Yup, it's not listed on hoopshype for some reason but the official deal when he signed with Milwaukee was:

_08/05/04: Mike James (MIL) signed a 3 year, $10.2 million contract with a player option of the 3rd year._


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## bigbabyjesus

damn, just heard the news; and i'm happy!

some people think we should give rafer one more chance, but i look at it this way. we all know he is coming off a year filled with controversy. do the raptors want to go through another year of having an inexperienced (starting) point guard, a selfish player; one that doesn't get along with his teammates, and a player that is not on the same page as the coach. i think if the raptors hold on to him; give him a second chance that his value will be too low, because i don't see a 29 year old veteran changing his mindset and maturing all that much. it's not happening.

as for mike james. well, i've always liked mike james as a player. he isn't the true point guard we would like on this team, but he is a tough guy who does a lot of the dirty work out on the floor. he will improve our perimeter defense and give us more efficient scoring and playmaking. 

not to mention the fact that we save 16 million over the next three years. i've always been supporting the contract babcock gave rafer, because it was very small per year.. it was a good contract for a backup - a role that i thought rafer could thrive in. but with james' contract, we get some cap relief 3 years earlier.

its obvious to me that this was a rebuilding move. not only do we save the money in two years, and gain a _positive_ influence on our young players, we open up the door for roko ukic to come over in two years when him and calderon will be covering that position.

this was not a blockbuster trade by any means - these two are nothing more than role players. but i feel mike james is a better player then rafer alston, and thats not taking into account all the other problems rafer has and the fact that mike james is a much better fit on our team.


----------



## speedythief

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> Yup, it's not listed on hoopshype for some reason but the official deal when he signed with Milwaukee was:
> 
> _08/05/04: Mike James (MIL) signed a 3 year, $10.2 million contract with a player option of the 3rd year._


At least we know he'll play hard to get his, then. Hopefully he doesn't pad.


----------



## TRON

^ I can't say that I am too sad to see Rafer gone. Team Chemistry should not be overlooked here

Look at Chicago, they paid Pargo $750,000 or something like that, because he was a good presence on the team chemistry wise. Same with Sean Marks in San Antonio, who most likely will never see any time.


----------



## Benis007

vigilante said:


> damn, just heard the news; and i'm happy!
> 
> some people think we should give rafer one more chance, but i look at it this way. we all know he is coming off a year filled with controversy. do the raptors want to go through another year of having an inexperienced (starting) point guard, a selfish player; one that doesn't get along with his teammates, and a player that is not on the same page as the coach. i think if the raptors hold on to him; give him a second chance that his value will be too low, because i don't see a 29 year old veteran changing his mindset and maturing all that much. it's not happening.
> 
> as for mike james. well, i've always liked mike james as a player. he isn't the true point guard we would like on this team, but he is a tough guy who does a lot of the dirty work out on the floor. he will improve our perimeter defense and give us more efficient scoring and playmaking.
> 
> not to mention the fact that we save 16 million over the next three years. i've always been supporting the contract babcock gave rafer, because it was very small per year.. it was a good contract for a backup - a role that i thought rafer could thrive in. but with james' contract, we get some cap relief 3 years earlier.
> 
> its obvious to me that this was a rebuilding move. not only do we save the money in two years, and gain a _positive_ influence on our young players, we open up the door for roko ukic to come over in two years when him and calderon will be covering that position.
> 
> this was not a blockbuster trade by any means - these two are nothing more than role players. but i feel mike james is a better player then rafer alston, and thats not taking into account all the other problems rafer has and the fact that mike james is a much better fit on our team.


^^^

Sums it up best


Any idea what this does to our chances for homicide williams?


----------



## ansoncarter

Turkish Delight said:


> You're right. Teams must have been lined up offering Babcock draft picks left and right.


I don't think it's even debatable whether we could have gotten a pick

Rob just preferred getting a contributor. For whatever reason


----------



## Slasher

Unlike most of you, I LOVE THIS TRADE.


It has been reported that Alvin Williams is doing great in his comeback. It makes since to get rid of a point guard in order to create playing time for Alvin, Jose, and the new addition Corey Williams.
Rafer Alston was a pain in the *** last season. Threatening to retire, skipping practice, fighting with players and coaches sound familiar?
Rafer was signed to an outrageous 6-year deal. Mike james has 1 year left and another year being an option. That's a few million in the bank for the Raps to spend on free agents in the future. 
Jose & Roko. Remember that these two guys will still be the vital part of this team. How in the world are we supposed to make room for these two in the future with so many PGs already?
Mike James is just a better and more intelligent basketball player than Rafer Alston. He is not as flashy with the ball as Alson but he also doesn't run his mouth as much as Alston. Solid pickup and a smart player.




> Babcock added that the trade will save the team as much as $16 million (U.S.) over next three years.


That doesn't sound too bad to me.


----------



## TRON

^ Slasher, while I am with you with liking this trade, where have you heard Alvin is doing great, cause today I read he is nowhere near 100%, and is concerned about lasting 82 games, but says he could play a bit


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## speedythief

The talk about us saving money for years and years doesn't make sense. It's not like we're going to go without. Somebody(s) will have to be signed to replace him.


----------



## Crossword

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

I just found out about this, I'm in New ****ing Brunswick goddaamitt... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

****IN *** BALLS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

WTF, NO PICK? COME ON NOW! Rafer is MUCH better than **** freaking Jones!


----------



## Crossword

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Oh and don't spin this in your favour using Rafer's contract. Yes Slasher I'm talking to you, I just didn't quote your post.

He had, for a starting point guard of his calibur, and we have gone over this PLENTY of times, a VERY reasonable contract. Not an outrageous or anything contract. Big ****ing deal if Mike James has one or two years left, it isn't like Rafer's a cap killer.

Man there is NOTHING good that can come out of this, except maybe 5 more losses this year.


----------



## speedythief

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

Here's Rob Babcock from the Swirsky Show today...

http://www.fan590.com/

Look under "hot audio".


----------



## Minstrel

I think this is a good deal for both teams. It makes sense for Toronto because it takes salary off their books at the same time as they hope to open a competitive window.

Houston is already in their competitive window, and they need a play-maker to set up McGrady and Yao and ocassionally drop in a three-pointer when he's open and gets a kick-out pass. Alston is much better in that regard, as he's a better and more willing passer and a superior decision-maker.


----------



## Turkish Delight

Minstrel said:


> I think this is a good deal for both teams. It makes sense for Toronto because it takes salary off their books at the same time as they hope to open a competitive window.
> 
> Houston is already in their competitive window, and they need a play-maker to set up McGrady and Yao and ocassionally drop in a three-pointer when he's open and gets a kick-out pass. Alston is much better in that regard, as he's a better and more willing passer and a superior decision-maker.


I personally think his decision making last year was his weak point, but I could be wrong.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

Turkish Delight said:


> I personally think his decision making last year was his weak point, but I could be wrong.


Mosty with shot selection; shouldn't be a problem in Houston- shoot off of kickouts like he did in Miami.


----------



## TRON

^ c/s, Rafer was an average decision maker, he had his moments but lacked consistantcy

He always thought he was a better shooter than his 41 FG% would indicate


----------



## ansoncarter

yeah Alston's decisions were always to chuck 3 pointers and never pass to Bosh

for Mike James to be worse he'd have to chuck from halfcourt and pass to the other team


----------



## bigbabyjesus

SkywalkerAC said:


> Mosty with shot selection; shouldn't be a problem in Houston- shoot off of kickouts like he did in Miami.


Good point. Rafer won't have the ball in his hands a lot, even if he starts for Houston. He will be used like Damon Jones was in Miami last year. Every great team has a spot up shooter - and Rafer will be Houstons.


----------



## charlz

:TorontoRaptors: said:


> My sources tell me the deal is for Mike James and a 1st round pick


OMG OMG OMG?!?!


----------



## [email protected]

drlove_playa said:


> Babcock is a moron. There is no doubt in my mind now that he is going to be fired within the coming months and the raps will finish with the worst record in the NBA. Welcome the new Clippers of the nba.


for you and all the other jerks who keep saying this...
this is the smartest move ever made

rafer alston is a trouble making loud-mouth who wants his way
he's a n00b and should be benched 4 ever, BUT is a good player

Toronto finished 3rd last in points given up
WHAT DOES THAT SAY??
WE NEED DEFENSE

and who better to trade for than Mike James-- one of the best Defensive Point Guards in the NBA?

Rob Babcock is my hero.

Raptors 4 Life


----------



## TRON

> Originally posted by *Budweiser_Boy!*
> 
> Man there is NOTHING good that can come out of this, except maybe 5 more losses this year.


at least we get Jose Calderon more time to play, as he is actually part of the long term plan of this team


----------



## Lynx

I'm puzzled!

What did Houston find in Rafer that they gave up Mike James for him? :whoknows:


----------



## SkywalkerAC

vigilante said:


> Good point. Rafer won't have the ball in his hands a lot, even if he starts for Houston. He will be used like Damon Jones was in Miami last year. Every great team has a spot up shooter - and Rafer will be Houstons.


And hopefully it works both ways. We've got our bigs that are going to handle the ball, draw doubles, and pass it out. I know that James is a much better slasher than Rafer and I expect us to use that aspect of his game. Hopefully we'll see some nice drop passes from Araujo to MJ but more importantly I think we'll see Bosh demand the ball and James will give it to him. Apparently he's not a great post feeder but with faceup bigs like Charlie (who I do expect to be a good post-feeder) and Bosh, he doesn't really have to be.


----------



## The_Franchise

Turkish Delight said:


> I personally think his decision making last year was his weak point, but I could be wrong.


But then again the offensive options on Toronto were a bit of an uncertainty last year. With Houston Rafer knows all he has to do is get the ball to McGrady or make entry passes to Yao and camp on the perimeter/cut to the basket. Because McGrady and Yao are such unstoppable 1 on 1 players it's not necessary that our PG have the greatest basketball IQ... as long as he can bring the ball up the court and get them a few easy buckets, it's enough.


----------



## TRON

> Originally posted by *[email protected] !*
> 
> finished 3rd last in points given up
> WHAT DOES THAT SAY??
> WE NEED DEFENSE


That's why I don't see why people say that this trade will make us worst. Yes, Rafer is the more talented player, however I don't think people notice how much of a negative impact Rafer had on our defensive schemes, especially having him playing 34 minutes a game. It really pained me to see him and Jalen out there at the same time, it just compounded the problems.


----------



## Benis007

charlz said:
 

> OMG OMG OMG?!?!


Initially someone brought up that a 1st round pick was thrown in, but I haven't confirmed it anywhere


----------



## TRON

> Originally posted by *Mr. Roger's Cardigan !*
> 
> Because McGrady and Yao are such unstoppable 1 on 1 players *it's not necessary that our PG have the greatest basketball IQ*


When the game comes down to the line, the last couple of minutes of the game where a win is up for grabs I think you want your PG to have some decent B-BAll IQ. We lost a lot of close games in the last couple of minutes of the game, and I know you can't solely blame Rafer for that, but I don't remember one game where Rafer put the team on his back and willed his way to a win 

& Didn't you guys have problems, until Sura came in a started to run it properly?


----------



## Air Fly

As you all know I didnt like Alston running this team in the first place, but trading him for Mike James is just a bad move by Babcock. James is just as selfish as Alston even more and he still wont pass the ball to Bosh like we all wanted from Rafer last season. Plus he isnt a better shooter than Rafer, dont let the stats fool ya.


----------



## Unknownone

'Lo all -

It's a trade that ultimately will benefit the Raptors methinks...

Improving team chemistry - you can have talented players all you want, but if there's little to no cohesion, it's a lost cause - see Payton, Malone, Shaq. and Kobe in Los Angeles for exhibit A... Alston may say all the right rhetoric in public, but there's little evidence on the court to suggest a genuine change of heart - James isn't a pass first mentality PG either, but I don't think he's as a disruptive a force as Alston...

Enables Calderon to be brought along more aggressively - how would Rafer have reacted to coming off the bench in favor of Jose as the season went on? Given all that he chafed @ last year, there's good reason to believe that this seeming relegation to the bench wouldn't play all that well in Raferville - I suspect that Babcock, Mitchell et al have informed James that he isn't going to the guaranteed starter this season (nor next if that should come to pass)...

Rebuilding versus trying to win just to get into the playoffs - look, we weren't going to contend legitimately or @ all w/ the current lineup w/ Alston - we won't be w/ James either, but we *WILL* be investing in some components of the overall enterprise that is intended to challenge for the championship (see above for playing time re: Calderon - who is touted to be a fundamental member of the PG position of the future)...

As for all those bemoaning this trade (and those praising it); season's about to begin - let's get on w/ it and look @ this in retrospect - I'm all for speculation and understand it's part of the discourse concerning sports, but this is not the death knell for this franchise...


----------



## superdude211

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



madman said:


> WOW what ****ing stupid *** trade, OMG wow Rob Babcock is a ****ing moron holy ****


Mabey they made this deal because Alston is a freakin nutcase you never now what your goin to get with him. I think this is a down grade in offence but an up grade in chemistry i mean do you really want your starting point guard whos suppose to be a team leader to act the way Alston did (he freakin said he was gonna quit the team)



*Good Ridance!!!*


----------



## Turkish Delight

Hopefully Mike James can bring that defensive intensity that we so sorely need right now. As you all know, this team has no problem scoring points, it's our defense that kills us.


----------



## Turkish Delight

I'm eager to see how the Babcock's media critics react to this trade. The initial signing and the whole Rafer Alston fiasco has been heavily criticised by the media, but what will they say about what Babcock got in return for him?


----------



## Lope31

Turkish Delight said:


> Hopefully Mike James can bring that defensive intensity that we so sorely need right now. As you all know, this team has no problem scoring points, it's our defense that kills us.


Pistons fan here, this is a great move for the Raptors. All the frustration caused by having Alston over the last few years is gone, and in addition to that we get a defensive minded point guard that displayed what he can do on a grand scale just two years ago. Remember the streak the Pistons had in 03-04 where they kept five teams below 80? Mike James (with Lindsey Hunter) was a huge part of that, his ability to guard full court is going to be great


----------



## FanOfAll8472

speedythief said:


> Mike James was accused of not passing to Yao enough. A bit concerning.


For the most part, this is true. Along with Sura, David Wesley, and at times Jon Barry, the Rockets guards had this aversion to passing into the post. James is a significantly better defender than Alston, but an inferior playmaker. It's nice to get a high-energy, veteran leader onto the Raptors, and while he's not always looking to score (thus why I don't really like the "combo" guard label on James), he struggles creating plays for others. Pretty good trade for both teams.



> Pistons fan here, this is a great move for the Raptors. All the frustration caused by having Alston over the last few years is gone, and in addition to that we get a defensive minded point guard that displayed what he can do on a grand scale just two years ago. Remember the streak the Pistons had in 03-04 where they kept five teams below 80? Mike James (with Lindsey Hunter) was a huge part of that, his ability to guard full court is going to be great


The problem being that Mike James is better off the bench, so that he can pressure the ball. I don't think the Raptors have the luxury to do that.


----------



## foul_balls

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



superdude211 said:


> Mabey they made this deal because Alston is a freakin nutcase you never now what your goin to get with him. I think this is a down grade in offence but an up grade in chemistry i mean do you really want your starting point guard whos suppose to be a team leader to act the way Alston did (he freakin said he was gonna quit the team)
> 
> 
> 
> *Good Ridance!!!*



While Alston did have a couple of brain cramps last year, he was also a model citizen in Miami the previous year and in Toronto in his first tour of duty. Miami's coach said as much. 

There is no reason to think that his poor behavior last year was going to continue. While hiis big contract went to his head last year, I am sure that he will do better this year in Houston to prove last year was an anomaly.

On the whole, I don't like this trade because it means a solid first string pg for a sixth man/combo guard. One saving grace: Mike James becomes a very tradeable commodity if a a contending team's pg goes down mid-season. James's shorter, somewhat reasonable contract would be in demand for this year if that happens.

I agree that this season got a lot leaner in order to look towards the future. One small problem I thought of is that cap space in 2 years might not mean so much if alot of other teams (e.g. the Lakers) also have cap space and free agents decide to go elsewhere. 

Oh well, go Raps in 2007-8!


----------



## trick

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*



foul_balls said:


> While Alston did have a couple of brain cramps last year, he was also a model citizen in Miami the previous year and in Toronto in his first tour of duty. Miami's coach said as much.


that's what i don't get too. i mean, during that great run miami had down the stretch of the 2003-2004 season, the popular consensus was that it was all due to *team work* and rafer was a big component on that team.

now all of a sudden he's a nutcase? after one season? i think the losing and the pressure got too much of him but i'm no going to suddenly label him a headcase after one season of negativity.


----------



## foul_balls

Benis007 said:


> I think that the most telling stat brough up here is the fact that James takes 4 less shots a game than Rafer.
> 
> Thats four more touches for someone else on the court.
> 
> [/B]


I think your stat is a bit misleading. 

Rough estimation:

James FGA per 48 minutes: 26.08______________Alston FGA per 48 minutes: 24.08
(1010 shots/1859 min X 48 min)______________(1363 shots/2717 min x 48 min)


James is a worse chucker than Alston and a worse playmaker. I still don't like this deal but it is better for the future.


----------



## trick

foul_balls said:


> I think your stat is a bit misleading.
> 
> Rough estimation:
> 
> James FGA per 48 minutes: 26.08______________Alston FGA per 48 minutes: 24.08
> (1010 shots/1859 min X 48 min)______________(1363 shots/2717 min x 48 min)
> 
> 
> James is a worse chucker than Alston and a worse playmaker. I still don't like this deal but it is better for the future.


it was actually my stat and it's really not that far off. putting aside 'per 48' stats for a sec and comparing the mpg both had while they were starters:
Alston: 34 mpg
James: 31 mpg
all the while James takes 4 less shots per game than Alston does. 

it's true that both are shoot-first point guards, but alston seems to be the more erratic of the two.


----------



## FanOfAll8472

foul_balls said:


> James is a worse chucker than Alston and a worse playmaker. I still don't like this deal but it is better for the future.


You can look at stats, but I wouldn't say James is anymore of a chucker than Alston. The difference between the two, is that Alston is slightly more willing to pass than James, but more trigger happy for outside jumpers. Meanwhile, James drives a lot and chucks less. In the end, James forces up bad shots in traffic (maybe just as many as Alston jacks from the outside, maybe more, maybe less), but there is a difference between what he and Alston do poorly offensively. They are similar in that both put up bad shots without passing, but what James does isn't really "chucking". Which is worse? That's your own opinion.


----------



## vi3t_boi11

The Raptors don't need another scorer, they need someone who looks to pass first, someone like Omar Cook


----------



## speedythief

James is a scorer but it's up to the coach to give him a role on the floor. He isn't just going to go out there regardless and play the same role as he did with the Rockets, especially if he is our starter.


----------



## foul_balls

FanOfAll8472 said:


> You can look at stats, but I wouldn't say James is anymore of a chucker than Alston. The difference between the two, is that Alston is slightly more willing to pass than James, but more trigger happy for outside jumpers. Meanwhile, James drives a lot and chucks less. In the end, James forces up bad shots in traffic (maybe just as many as Alston jacks from the outside, maybe more, maybe less), but there is a difference between what he and Alston do poorly offensively. They are similar in that both put up bad shots without passing, but what James does isn't really "chucking". Which is worse? That's your own opinion.


Whether you want to use the word "chucker" for someone who jacks up jumpers or jacks up crazy shots on drives is a matter of personal definition.

Regardless, the stat clearly shows James is more trigger happy and looks for his shot more than others. Many board members have long called for someone who is able to set up Bosh and others better. James does not do this regardless if he comes off the bench or starts. Talent-wise and immediate need wise, this is still a bad trade unless we can package James this year for someone else or a pick to better improve our future, IMO.


----------



## DHarris34Phan

Mike James is better than Rafer Alston, with a better contract. You guys got a good deal.


----------



## foul_balls

trick said:


> it was actually my stat and it's really not that far off. putting aside 'per 48' stats for a sec and comparing the mpg both had while they were starters:
> Alston: 34 mpg
> James: 31 mpg
> all the while James takes 4 less shots per game than Alston does.


The stat is still misleading. James averaged 25 mpg last year, not 31, and if he averaged the same number of mpg, he would have attempted more per game than Rafer. 

Therefore, that 4 less shots per game means nothing. The erratic idea is reasonable since his career FG shooting percentages are a bit better than Rafer's (41 to 39) but Rafter's 3pt shooting is slightly better (36 to 35) . It is still a definite talent downgrade. Houston wanted a first-string pg to replace their first string pg.



speedythief said:


> James is a scorer but it's up to the coach to give him a role on the floor. He isn't just going to go out there regardless and play the same role as he did with the Rockets, especially if he is our starter.


This is very true and possible, but he has never shown himself to be a great distributor so it is hard to see himself morphing into one cuz the coach asks him to. His career high for apg is 4.4 I think and is steadily getting worse, not better. 

Rafer's apg have steadily improved and I raised the point cuz I don't really buy any of the arguments that James doesn't hog shots. 

Rafer apg
02-03 4.1
03-04 4.5
04-05 6.4

Regardless, let me say again that for the future, this trade may work out if calderon and ukic develop, but one for one, this trade is a talent downgrade.


----------



## ballocks

foul_balls said:


> Regardless, let me say again that for the future, this trade may work out if calderon and ukic develop, but one for one, this trade is a talent downgrade.


i think i agree with this, and that's the one thing that makes me a little uncomfortable. don't get me wrong, i like the deal, but it is still unfortunate (imo) that we had to deal superior talent for somewhat inferior talent- contracts notwithstanding. in a perfect world, we would have found a way to clear rafer's rep completely around the league, and if it were impossible to fit him into the culture of our team, would have dealt him for more than just an "acceptable" return. but that's my perfectionism on the mic.

i'm satisfied that babcock is obviously gunning for the '07 off-season, and is making his decisions accordingly, but i'm just hoping he also has his eye on the particular talent he hopes to ink, and isn't just clearing cap room in the _hopes_ that "someone" worthwhile will become available. i like the '07 talent pool more than next year's, though. so if he hasn't done his homework, i guess we'd still have a safety net there. 

related to the same point, i'm also glad that he didn't drop rose for penny and/or tim in the hopes of clearing minimal capspace for next summer. i like the vision for '07: you should know what the cap flexibility will do for you before you make the concessions to "enjoy" it. dropping an important player (like jalen) for a contract that expires in '06 (like penny's) would have arguably done little for the team aside from save the pension fund some $$$ on the books. the rafer for james deal, from that angle, is more fitting to our current path. random pieces of capspace are rarely as good as a chunk of capspace that comes at the right time- especially if we have to also concede talent for the former and not the latter.

what we do in the '07 off-season will be enormous, it will absolutely determine our future, but i'm more excited that i'll enjoy our team until then, too. feels like a bonus today. 

peace

(and i also agree with what blow said earlier: this trade kind of tells me that the raps _really_ like calderon. can't wait to see him on the court.)


----------



## Yao Mania

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

wow 13 pages on this trade already??

I think it's a good trade for you guys too. Mike James is solid as many people have mentioned, and i will miss him in Houston. For a team that lacks many scoring options, Mike James can definitely come in and give you guys 10+ ppg pretty consistently. He's also an underrated defender, and I don't think he's really the ballhog that everyone rumours him to be. He did a better job getting the ball to Yao than Sura did IMO.

I know Skip's a fan fav but this is a pretty good trade for both teams.


----------



## madman

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

I mean it makes sense in the long run but it still pisses me off that we cant even get a pick with him


----------



## lucky777s

*Re: Raptors trade Alston to Rockets*

One thing I think we can count on seeing this year is a lot of 2 guard lineups, meaning you can expect to see combos like:

James/Alvin
Calderon/James
Calderon/Alvin

with our other PG taking Alvin's minutes early in the year if he's not ready.

All our PGs are capable of playing SG so it gives us some good flexibility. Like the Bulls having Duhon and Hinrich on the court together. Neither is a penetrating creator on O but together they can run the system efficiently and move the ball well, while taking open shots.

Raps will still have 5 capable scorers on the floor at all times. Nobody can just be left open for shots. If we get more motion and slashing out of our offense we could really create problems for teams with our athleticism at SF, PF, and even C.

Potential Minutes breakdown
James 28mpg, Calderon 20mpg
MoP 32mpg, Alvin 16mpg
Jalen 32mpg, Joey 16mpg
CB 36mpg, Bonner 12mpg
Charlie 28mpg, Hoff 15mpg, Sow 5mpg

Hoff could start but Charlie will get more minutes.

The problem I see coming is Eric Williams. If we keep him he has to play. And I just don't see any minutes for him. Its basically between EWill,Bonner,and Joey for backup minutes. Only 2 can get decent minutes each night. Unless Alvin can't go and Joey can play SG. That would open up minutes at SF for EWill. Not sure it would be enough to keep him happy though.

I've always said that either Jalen or EWill has to go.


----------



## Turkish Delight

If someone could come up with a list of players that will be available for the 2007/2008 season, that would be very helpful.


----------



## seifer0406

I think it's a great trade for the Raptors. It is pretty obvious that Alston is not in Babcock's plans. If alston isn't traded now, he will be traded later down the road when more attitude problems arises. It is not easy to shop a 29 year old pg with baggage who still has 5 years on his contract. Might as well take what you can just to get rid of him. The Raptors are not going to miss this years playoffs because of the loss of Alston, they are going to miss it for all the other reasons. Same thing goes if they make it to the playoffs next year, they won't make it in because of Alston. If I were Sam Mitchell, I would want Alston gone as well. If I am going to lose that many games this year, I rather lose it without taking bs from my starting point guard. Even if Ukic and Calderon don't end up being quality players, it has nothing to do with whether the Raptors have Alston on the team. Think of it this way, if 2 years later the Raptors discover that Ukic and Calderon aren't that good, would you want a 31 year old Alston be your long term point guard solution? The answer is an obvious no. You either get rid of Alston now or you get rid of him 2 years later, might as well do it when he still has value.


----------



## Rhubarb

I'm still not sure what to make of it.

All I know is, Babcock can't be too serious about winning then - which is unfortunate for guys like Chris, who put their whole seasons in to make them.

The trade certainly has its pros, and some may say that's all that's needed to make them happy. But looking at the cons of the trade as well, I really do wonder if winning is on the agenda. I'm quite prepared to sit through another long season, knowing there's some light at the end of the tunnel. But how long are guys like Chris going to sit and wait?

Chris recently came out proclaiming he really believes this team can make the playoffs, and that he'd continue to push himself to make sure that would happen. This isn't the first time we've heard him come and really set the standards for himself, but perhaps ironically, with every step Chris plans to take forward, Babcock grabs the rest of the group and puts them back a few paces.

Patience aside, how long is Chris going to wait until Babcock and co really believe its time the team can go foward with Chris?


----------



## Theberge43

> "Rafer is more of a traditional point in that he passes first, shoots second," Rockets general manager Carroll Dawson said. "Mike was very valuable. The role he played for us last year was just great, coming off the bench with an immediate explosion of points. But this will give us a little more of a standard, traditional point for the NBA."


This is very scary ... if Houston's GM sees Rafer as a more traditional PG, this means Mike James must one hell of a chucker ! :eek8:


----------



## Turkish Delight

Theberge43 said:


> This is very scary ... if Houston's GM sees Rafer as a more traditional PG, this means Mike James must one hell of a chucker ! :eek8:


Well with Sura playing the point, Mike James played a lot of minutes at the 2 spot. Hopefully he'll be more of a traditional PG if he's given that lead role.


----------



## Theberge43

Hope you are right man ... still, I like the move on the attitude angle ... and espacially on the Cap situation !


----------



## madman

Rhubarb said:


> Patience aside, how long is Chris going to wait until Babcock and co really believe its time the team can go foward with Chris?


i dont know and it is a scary thought, they better seriously focus on making him happy because without him all the cap in that we are getting isnt going to help much.


----------



## changv10

Check this out ....

ALSTON - 6/2 170lb
PPG 14.2 
RPG 3.5 
APG 6.4 
SPG 1.48 
BPG .09 
FG% .414 
FT% .740 
3P% .357 
MPG 34.0 

JAMES - 6/2 188lb
PPG 11.8 
RPG 2.8 
APG 3.6 
SPG .88 
BPG .08 
FG% .441 
FT% .752 
3P% .386 
MPG 25.1 

This is data from NBA players page. Notice the huge minute differential. Factor in 34 minutes for James instead of 25.1, we get:

JAMES (with Alston minutes)
PPG 15.9 > Alston
RPG 3.8 > Alston
APG 4.9 < Alston
SPG 1.2 < Alston
BPG 0.1 ~ Alston
FG% .441 (same) > Alston
FT% .752 (same) > Alston
3P% .386 (same) > Alston
MPG 34.0 

We are losing 1 assist and 0.2 steals a game. And since we all know that Rafer's assists were bloated on passing the ball off and not making easy buckets ... that's kinda misleading. We get a bigger point guard that is a better shooter and has a shorter contract. This deal doesn't look so bad after all. 

Furthermore, James's scoring is handicapped by being at MOST the third option in the team behind TMac and Yao. We might not get the short end of the stick.


----------



## Benis007

changv10 said:


> Check this out ....
> 
> ALSTON - 6/2 170lb
> PPG 14.2
> RPG 3.5
> APG 6.4
> SPG 1.48
> BPG .09
> FG% .414
> FT% .740
> 3P% .357
> MPG 34.0
> 
> JAMES - 6/2 188lb
> PPG 11.8
> RPG 2.8
> APG 3.6
> SPG .88
> BPG .08
> FG% .441
> FT% .752
> 3P% .386
> MPG 25.1
> 
> This is data from NBA players page. Notice the huge minute differential. Factor in 34 minutes for James instead of 25.1, we get:
> 
> JAMES (with Alston minutes)
> PPG 15.9 > Alston
> RPG 3.8 > Alston
> APG 4.9 < Alston
> SPG 1.2 < Alston
> BPG 0.1 ~ Alston
> FG% .441 (same) > Alston
> FT% .752 (same) > Alston
> 3P% .386 (same) > Alston
> MPG 34.0
> 
> We are losing 1 assist and 0.2 steals a game. And since we all know that Rafer's assists were bloated on passing the ball off and not making easy buckets ... that's kinda misleading. We get a bigger point guard that is a better shooter and has a shorter contract. This deal doesn't look so bad after all.
> 
> Furthermore, James's scoring is handicapped by being at MOST the third option in the team behind TMac and Yao. We might not get the short end of the stick.


PLUS

James is only *one* year older than Rafer


----------



## MonsterBosh

ballocks said:


> i'm satisfied that babcock is obviously gunning for the '07 off-season, and is making his decisions accordingly, but i'm just hoping he also has his eye on the particular talent he hopes to ink, and isn't just clearing cap room in the _hopes_ that "someone" worthwhile will become available. i like the '07 talent pool more than next year's, though. so if he hasn't done his homework, i guess we'd still have a safety net there.
> 
> .. snip ..
> 
> what we do in the '07 off-season will be enormous, it will absolutely determine our future, but i'm more excited that i'll enjoy our team until then, too. feels like a bonus today.


Spot on, and this was my own assessment as previously posted.

Babcock was being forthright and honest when he doubted the Raptors could improve on last season's record. This may have been naive of him to say this because most fans are highly delusional about their favourite team and to dash their hopes so early is not good marketing strategy .. as responsible rah-rah Rose realizes with his gargantuan contract.

So let's be realistic and look at the Raptor's as the management and staff must assess this team of rookies and proven non-star players. Let's also admit that established star or good NBA players will not play for the Raptors for obvious reasons. The Raptors can only attract foreign players and rookies above the 4th or 5th pick that will want to stay and shine with this team and city. If the Raptors have the first to third rookie pick, they will have to trade him because nobody at that level will want to start their NBA career in the foreign Toronto market. Carter's experience with the Raptors has not created a good image forToronto in the minds of NBA players ... and I think that should be obvious with the recent history of last season.

Hope is all that rabid Raptor fans have going into the next season, and once reality sinks in as the team struggles we will remember Babcocks word's of warning .. and there will be demands for his head ... but to no avail because the management is on board with Babcock's long term plans and realize the limitations of the Toronto franchise. Babcock is the best GM that Toronto will ever get because somebody like Brown or Jackson would never come here. If Babcock's plans sour, you can expect Bosh to leave regardless of what is being said now. 

I am not saying this to hurt people's feelings, but I think that somebody here should explain the facts of NBA life to loyal Raptor fans who still have their #15 uniform hanging in their closet. Personally, I look forward to a future Raptor team loaded with European talent and a mix of US rookie-developed players .... and of course a couple of decent veterans to keep everything on the level .... maybe Magliore to finish his career.

If the Raptors contend for the eighth playoff place in the 2007-08 season, Babcock's plans will be successful earlier than expected .... believe it .... !!!


----------



## CrookedJ

Don't know if anyone mentioned this but, the more I hear about james, the more I think he sounds like Bobby Jackson - combo gaurd, with good defense, good shooter and quick in the lane. Just not a pure point guard. Babcock hasn't been able to shut up anout what a "pure point guard" Jose is, so I Imagine he's going be playing Calderon a whole lot at the point, and James could certainly play a fiar bit of SG, as others have mentioned.


----------



## speedythief

MonsterBosh said:


> Let's also admit that established star or good NBA players will not play for the Raptors for obvious reasons. The Raptors can only attract foreign players and rookies above the 4th or 5th pick that will want to stay and shine with this team and city. If the Raptors have the first to third rookie pick, they will have to trade him because nobody at that level will want to start their NBA career in the foreign Toronto market. Carter's experience with the Raptors has not created a good image forToronto in the minds of NBA players ... and I think that should be obvious with the recent history of last season.


Um, no. Once again you mischaracterize both the franchise and Joe NBA Player.

This is not something we should "admit" as it's not something that's true. We have had individual cases with players not wanting to play in Toronto (Kenny Anderson) and players not wanting to re-sign (McGrady). Every team has such examples!

We have very little evidence that Toronto cannot attract free agents. We have also shown the ability to retain our own free agents more than we have shown we can't. I think if you look at the league average for teams trying but failing to sign their own free agents, we're probably at an above-average percentage for retention.

It's silly to think that players view Toronto as a worse destination than places like Salt Lake City or Minneapolis. The reality is that it always comes down to the same factors:

1. Money
2. Winning
3. Everything else

Toronto has virtually never had money to spend on the free agent market. The biggest spending period in our history was used to re-sign our own RFA's.

To lure free agents you need to offer them the best money and a chance to win basketball games. That is at the forefront of every free agent's mind. That is "reality".

NBA players don't view Toronto as another planet. They visit here at least every year to play. And players that have been here gush about the city, so it's not like word of mouth from the source is bad, either.

Once we are a winning franchise the superfluous stuff like a supposed lack of soul food is not going to be a major factor... not that it ever was, IMO.



> Hope is all that rabid Raptor fans have going into the next season, and once reality sinks in as the team struggles we will remember Babcocks word's of warning .. and there will be demands for his head ... but to no avail because the management is on board with Babcock's long term plans and realize the limitations of the Toronto franchise. Babcock is the best GM that Toronto will ever get because somebody like Brown or Jackson would never come here. If Babcock's plans sour, you can expect Bosh to leave regardless of what is being said now.


What does Babcock as GM have to do with Brown and Jackson as coaches?

If Jerry Sloan will spend decades in Utah, any coach will coach anywhere. It's not a matter of "oh, Toronto, that's the wastelands of the NBA." It's a matter of coming into a good situation and getting a nice contract.

But we've got a coach, and he's one I can see coaching here for years and years, so your point is moot, anyways.

In terms of attracting a marquee general manager, last time I checked RC Buford isn't mister name-in-lights and such, but he's done a hell of a job in San Antonio. Fancy names are meaningless in the GM job--what matters is who you know and what you can do for a franchise.

And it's not like guys like Wayne Embry and Alex English are nobodies, either.


----------



## MonsterBosh

speedythief said:


> Um, no. Once again you mischaracterize both the franchise and Joe NBA Player.


Well that's your opinion, and we shall see what happens to the New Look Raptors this season. 

My expectation is the Raptors will crash ... as warned by Babcock. This new team will have difficulty gelling because there are too many rookies and blue-collar sophomore players. Bosh will again bear the brunt and suffer as opposition defenses take him out of his offense ... and his development will be stalled. That is what we can expect realistically for this season.

If something magical happens and all the rookies and sophomores turn into small stars, then the Raptors will be respectable, but still not a playoff team. Only the most deluded cling to that playoff fantasy ... as they ignore what the oppositiion team will do to the vulnerable Raptors ... because they wear emotional blinkers only looking at their beloved Raptors.

No high draft pick rookie will want to play in Toronto .. because that is not part of his NBA Dream. Better to play for the Clippers, Hornets, than in struggling Toronto as a Raptor(?) !! Top FA's will not come to Toronto to further their NBA careers because it will adversely affect their overall marketability.

The long-term development of the Raptors is at best a long shot .. that depends on rookies and European players .. not a situation where established NBA FA's will consider. And you have the factors that FA's consider slightly off and are:

1. Winning
2. Everything else
3. Money

Since the Raptors cannot be considered a winning team for the forseeable future, no star FA will put himself in that risky situation ... and the money will always be there because the choices in the USA are much better than the Raptors.


----------



## Porn Player

Holy **** That Sucks Am Gutted


----------



## SkywalkerAC

MonsterBosh said:


> Well that's your opinion, and we shall see what happens to the New Look Raptors this season.
> 
> My expectation is the Raptors will crash ... as warned by Babcock. This new team will have difficulty gelling because there are too many rookies and blue-collar sophomore players. Bosh will again bear the brunt and suffer as opposition defenses take him out of his offense ... and his development will be stalled. That is what we can expect realistically for this season.
> 
> If something magical happens and all the rookies and sophomores turn into small stars, then the Raptors will be respectable, but still not a playoff team. Only the most deluded cling to that playoff fantasy ... as they ignore what the oppositiion team will do to the vulnerable Raptors ... because they wear emotional blinkers only looking at their beloved Raptors.
> 
> No high draft pick rookie will want to play in Toronto .. because that is not part of his NBA Dream. Better to play for the Clippers, Hornets, than in struggling Toronto as a Raptor(?) !! Top FA's will not come to Toronto to further their NBA careers because it will adversely affect their overall marketability.
> 
> The long-term development of the Raptors is at best a long shot .. that depends on rookies and European players .. not a situation where established NBA FA's will consider. And you have the factors that FA's consider slightly off and are:
> 
> 1. Winning
> 2. Everything else
> 3. Money
> 
> Since the Raptors cannot be considered a winning team for the forseeable future, no star FA will put himself in that risky situation ... and the money will always be there because the choices in the USA are much better than the Raptors.



What complete and utter drivel. Top picks won't come here and play? Tell that to Chris Bosh.


----------



## lucky777s

MonsterBosh said:


> Top FA's will not come to Toronto to further their NBA careers because it will adversely affect their overall marketability.
> 
> The long-term development of the Raptors is at best a long shot .. that depends on rookies and European players .. not a situation where established NBA FA's will consider. And you have the factors that FA's consider slightly off and are:
> 
> 1. Winning
> 2. Everything else
> 3. Money



Way to make yourself look ridiculous.

Did being in Toronto hurt VC's marketability? Hardly. If anything it insulated him from the criticism he deserved for his last few seasons. Bosh will have similar success here.

As for your little list of FA priorities, how would you explain Joe Johnson going from winner in a rich city with perfect weather to loser in lower quality city for less money? Or how about Al Harrington leaving Indiana, or Carlos Boozer leaving Cleveland for Utah? Damon Jones leaving Miami?

Get a clue.


----------



## Benis007

^
zing


----------



## MonsterBosh

SkywalkerAC said:


> What complete and utter drivel. Top picks won't come here and play? Tell that to Chris Bosh.


How quickly fans forget ... Vince did not want Bosh and even pushed for the Raptors to trade him..!!

Everybody and even Bosh was surprised that he was picked so high .... so stop changing history with your drivel.




lucky777s said:


> Way to make yourself look ridiculous.
> 
> Did being in Toronto hurt VC's marketability? Hardly. If anything it insulated him from the criticism he deserved for his last few seasons. Bosh will have similar success here.
> 
> As for your little list of FA priorities, how would you explain Joe Johnson going from winner in a rich city with perfect weather to loser in lower quality city for less money? Or how about Al Harrington leaving Indiana, or Carlos Boozer leaving Cleveland for Utah? Damon Jones leaving Miami?
> 
> Get a clue.


Being a Raptor ruined VC's marketability ... and Babcock confirmed that when he confessed that the best deal he could get was with NJ... remember ??!!!

Bosh will get double-teamed now that the Raptors are a team filled with rookies and scrubs. He will no longer get the same stats and may even get injured this season ... and that is a distinct possibility now. Bosh may have peaked with last year's Raptors and may start going downhill considering the inexperienced teamates surrounding him. The chances of the Raptors jelling as a good offensive and defensive team this season is doubtful. Working for the Raptors will be tough on Bosh because stopping him will stop the Raptors ... and that's so obvious to those who know basketball.

As for your particular examples, that proves that these top FA players would prefer all those US cities over Toronto .. without doubt. Even if they were offered more by Toronto they would just use that as leverage to get better deals from domestic US teams. If you think these multi-millionaires only play for money ... you are quite naive and don't understand the culture within the NBA ... They plan for a career that will result in a shot at a championship ... not grinding in hapless Toronto.

I hope you get the clue too .... because you don't want to appear ridiculous as you have in your posting.


----------



## Turkish Delight

MonsterBosh said:


> How quickly fans forget ... Vince did not want Bosh and even pushed for the Raptors to trade him..!!
> 
> *Everybody and even Bosh was surprised that he was picked so high .... so stop changing history with your drivel.*


I don't know where you got that from, but most mocks had either Bosh or TJ Ford being picked at 4 spot.


----------



## MonsterBosh

Turkish Delight said:


> I don't know where you got that from, but most mocks had either Bosh or TJ Ford being picked at 4 spot.


My recollection is based on what Bosh said after being picked by Toronto ... or maybe that he was surprised that Toronto picked him .... anyway .... 

But you do remember what VC thought about Bosh ... and what VC thought the Raptors needed to keep him in Toronto .... sigh ... !

Now Bosh knows how VC felt about the Raptors ... and Raptors management fully understood who Bosh wanted on his team this season .... goodbye Rafer .... hello James ... LOL ... !!!


----------



## speedythief

MonsterBosh said:


> How quickly fans forget ... Vince did not want Bosh and even pushed for the Raptors to trade him..!!
> 
> Everybody and even Bosh was surprised that he was picked so high .... so stop changing history with your drivel.


Vince wanting Rasheed Wallace has nothing to do with your argument.

And while players like Hinrich, Kaman, and Ford were possible draft choices for us, the consensus pick was Bosh and it was by no means a "surprise" for "everybody".




> Being a Raptor ruined VC's marketability ... and Babcock confirmed that when he confessed that the best deal he could get was with NJ... remember ??!!!


I suppose Vince being a wimp and playing like garbage has nothing to do with his value on the market, eh?



> Bosh will get double-teamed now that the Raptors are a team filled with rookies and scrubs. He will no longer get the same stats and may even get injured this season ... and that is a distinct possibility now. Bosh may have peaked with last year's Raptors and may start going downhill considering the inexperienced teamates surrounding him. The chances of the Raptors jelling as a good offensive and defensive team this season is doubtful. Working for the Raptors will be tough on Bosh because stopping him will stop the Raptors ... and that's so obvious to those who know basketball.


The team isn't that different from last year, when Bosh seldom saw double teams. There isn't a need to double team Bosh when even with his production the Raptors are lacking everywhere else. If he does get doubled than that's just the way things are. Good players on good teams get doubled too--it's basic basketball strategy, and it's not like he's never faced double- and triple-teams in his career. If he wants to grow he'll need to learn how to deal with these things.

And for the record, Bosh is hardly someone to shy away from a challenge.

Talking about Bosh's career already on the downhill is just the worst kind of doom-and-gloom bull****. If you want to talk in worst case scenarios feel free but you also happen to be especially harsh towards fans who are overly optimistic--which is totally hypocritical.



> As for your particular examples, that proves that these top FA players would prefer all those US cities over Toronto .. without doubt. Even if they were offered more by Toronto they would just use that as leverage to get better deals from domestic US teams. If you think these multi-millionaires only play for money ... you are quite naive and don't understand the culture within the NBA ... They plan for a career that will result in a shot at a championship ... not grinding in hapless Toronto.


No, those examples don't prove that at all. We didn't pursue those players.

Any free agent can use any offer as leverage--unless they sign an offer sheet, which in many cases gives a 50-50 chance for both teams.

Multi-millionaires like Mike James, who said he would opt out of his contract with the Rockets and go to the highest bidder, no matter who they were?


----------



## foul_balls

changv10 said:


> Check this out ....
> 
> ALSTON - 6/2 170lb
> PPG 14.2
> RPG 3.5
> APG 6.4
> SPG 1.48
> BPG .09
> FG% .414
> FT% .740
> 3P% .357
> MPG 34.0
> 
> JAMES - 6/2 188lb
> PPG 11.8
> RPG 2.8
> APG 3.6
> SPG .88
> BPG .08
> FG% .441
> FT% .752
> 3P% .386
> MPG 25.1
> 
> This is data from NBA players page. Notice the huge minute differential. Factor in 34 minutes for James instead of 25.1, we get:
> 
> JAMES (with Alston minutes)
> PPG 15.9 > Alston
> RPG 3.8 > Alston
> APG 4.9 < Alston
> SPG 1.2 < Alston
> BPG 0.1 ~ Alston
> FG% .441 (same) > Alston
> FT% .752 (same) > Alston
> 3P% .386 (same) > Alston
> MPG 34.0


your stats show it is a bad trade for Toronto, not good IMO. 

FT% - a wash
FG% - a wash
3PT% - James's was better last year

James FGA per 35 minutes: 19.02
Alston FGA per 35 minutes: 17.56

So while it is not totally conclusive whether James is a better shooter looking at the percentages, he inevitably takes more shots when everyone wants the Raptors pg to initiate less and Bosh to shoot more.

Rafer's ast per 35 min - 6.62
James ast per 35 min - 4.95 

That is almost 1.7 ast differential, not 1. 
1.7 is a huge differential. Just to give you an example, it separates a Lebron James(7.2) from a Jason Terry, a Mike Bibby(6.8) from Jeff McInnis (5.1) or Gilbert Arenas. Everyone wanted Rafer out because of his ballhogging. Getting James compounds the problem, it doesn't alleviate it. 

As for your assertion "And since we all know that Rafer's assists were bloated on passing the ball off and not making easy buckets", that is not backed up by anything except your opinion. To qualify as an assist, it has to be a pass to a teammate that scores directly or doesn't dribble more than twice 
before scoring. With that definition, it is hard to see how Rafer picks up an "easy assist."

Finally, there is a non-statistical reason that Mike James doesn't play nor has he ever played 35 minutes a game. He is a good sixth man/nice offence guy off the bench. He is not starting pg material. 

Toronto just got a lot worse for this year, and if you want to define "short end of the stick" looking at the future, then I agree with you, it is maybe not so bad. I just differ in that I tend to define "short end of the stick" as talent for talent, and Toronto got worse.


----------



## Turkish Delight

foul_balls said:


> your stats show it is a bad trade for Toronto, not good IMO.
> 
> FT% - a wash
> FG% - a wash
> 3PT% - James's was better last year
> 
> James FGA per 35 minutes: 19.02
> Alston FGA per 35 minutes: 17.56
> 
> So while it is not totally conclusive whether James is a better shooter looking at the percentages, he inevitably takes more shots when everyone wants the Raptors pg to initiate less and Bosh to shoot more.
> 
> Rafer's ast per 35 min - 6.62
> James ast per 35 min - 4.95
> 
> That is almost 1.7 ast differential, not 1. 1.7 is a huge differential. Just to give you an example, it separates a Lebron James(7.2) from a Jason Terry, a Mike Bibby(6.8) from Jeff McInnis (5.1) or Gilbert Arenas. Everyone wanted Rafer out because of his ballhogging. Getting James compounds the problem, it doesn't alleviate it.
> 
> As for your assertion "And since we all know that Rafer's assists were bloated on passing the ball off and not making easy buckets", that is not backed up by anything except your opinion. To qualify as an assist, it has to be a pass to a teammate that scores directly or doesn't dribble more than twice
> before scoring. With that definition, it is hard to see how Rafer picks up an "easy assist."
> 
> Finally, there is a non-statistical reason that Mike James doesn't play nor has he ever played 35 minutes a game. He is a good sixth man/nice offence guy off the bench. He is not starting pg material.
> 
> Toronto just got a lot worse for this year, and if you want to define "short end of the stick" looking at the future, then I agree with you, it is maybe not so bad. I just differ in that I tend to define "short end of the stick" as talent for talent, and Toronto got worse.


Good points, but let's keep in mind that Mike James wasn't asked to be a distributor for the Rockets last season. Not only did he play a lot of minutes at the 2 spot, but the ball was regularly in Tracy McGrady's hands, and he had the role of shooting, distributing and so forth...


----------



## speedythief

foul balls...

We got the worse player in this deal, but you have to take into consideration the role James played with the Rockets as opposed to the role he will play with us. Not the same thing at all.


----------



## ShuHanGuanYu

foul_balls said:


> your stats show it is a bad trade for Toronto, not good IMO.
> 
> FT% - a wash
> FG% - a wash
> 3PT% - James's was better last year
> 
> James FGA per 35 minutes: 19.02
> Alston FGA per 35 minutes: 17.56
> 
> So while it is not totally conclusive whether James is a better shooter looking at the percentages, he inevitably takes more shots when everyone wants the Raptors pg to initiate less and Bosh to shoot more.
> 
> Rafer's ast per 35 min - 6.62
> James ast per 35 min - 4.95
> 
> That is almost 1.7 ast differential, not 1.
> 1.7 is a huge differential. Just to give you an example, it separates a Lebron James(7.2) from a Jason Terry, a Mike Bibby(6.8) from Jeff McInnis (5.1) or Gilbert Arenas. Everyone wanted Rafer out because of his ballhogging. Getting James compounds the problem, it doesn't alleviate it.
> 
> As for your assertion "And since we all know that Rafer's assists were bloated on passing the ball off and not making easy buckets", that is not backed up by anything except your opinion. To qualify as an assist, it has to be a pass to a teammate that scores directly or doesn't dribble more than twice
> before scoring. With that definition, it is hard to see how Rafer picks up an "easy assist."


You just answered your own question. Everyone wanted Rafer out because of his ballhogging. When you hog the ball, you get more assists because you simply have a lot more opportunities. McGrady was the ballhandler when Sura wasn't, James was not asked to fill the distributor role. Stats are important, but they don't tell the whole story here.



foul_balls said:


> Finally, there is a non-statistical reason that Mike James doesn't play nor has he ever played 35 minutes a game. He is a good sixth man/nice offence guy off the bench. He is not starting pg material.


Really now? Let's take a look at his stats as a starter. 34.6 mpg, 18.4 ppg, 5.4 apg, 4.2 rpg, 1.4 spg, 47.4%FG, 46% 3ptFG. Granted, the sample size is small (5 games). But in his starts he seemed to do very well.


----------



## foul_balls

Turkish Delight said:


> Good points, but let's keep in mind that Mike James wasn't asked to be a distributor for the Rockets last season. Not only did he play a lot of minutes at the 2 spot, but the ball was regularly in Tracy McGrady's hands, and he had the role of shooting, distributing and so forth...


I agree but as I mentioned before, Mike James's apg is steadily getting worse (4.2, 3.9, 3.5) and Rafer's is improving significantly (4.1, 4.5, 6.4). There is nothing in the stats showing he does this as well as Rafer. 

I personally doubt James can morph into a suddenly good distributor getting 6.4 APG but let's hope he proves me wrong cuz this year's team got less exciting IMO.

Not to beat a dead horse, but one last point. His fga/35 minutes in Milwaukee in a more traditional pg role last year: 18.35 Not much different from his Houston SG stats.


----------



## foul_balls

ShuHanGuanYu said:


> You just answered your own question. Everyone wanted Rafer out because of his ballhogging. When you hog the ball, you get more assists because you simply have a lot more opportunities. McGrady was the ballhandler when Sura wasn't, James was not asked to fill the distributor role. Stats are important, but they don't tell the whole story here.
> 
> Really now? Let's take a look at his stats as a starter. 34.6 mpg, 18.4 ppg, 5.4 apg, 4.2 rpg, 1.4 spg, 47.4%FG, 46% 3ptFG. Granted, the sample size is small (5 games). But in his starts he seemed to do very well.


The ballhogging was in reference to his penchant for taking crazy shots, especially late in the game. As a pg, he has to bring up the ball and initiate the offense, that is what a pg is supposed to do. James will be in the same situation regardless, as is Steve Nash or Brevin Knight or any other good playmaker. (They are good decision makers and Rafer was developing into one.) The point I am making is James is just as much of a shot taker as Rafer is. If you want to argue that Rafer dominates the ball and lets the 24 sec clock run down like Marbury does, that is your opinion. I personally didn't see that last year but I don't have any time counts or stats that back up my opinion.

The 5 starts mean nothing objectively speaking. While his stats for the 5 games are great (probably when Sura was injured), it still shows the coach didn't want to give him more signficant minutes. He is very valuable as a sixth man but we still got the worst of the trade talent-wise.


----------



## MonsterBosh

speedythief said:


> Vince wanting Rasheed Wallace has nothing to do with your argument.
> 
> And while players like Hinrich, Kaman, and Ford were possible draft choices for us, the consensus pick was Bosh and it was by no means a "surprise" for "everybody".
> 
> I suppose Vince being a wimp and playing like garbage has nothing to do with his value on the market, eh?


Let's be truthful about Raptor's past history and VC .. and not making up excuses as you seem to do. The Raptor's was Vince's team and selecting Bosh did not help him in his difficult situation. Vince gave up his body for the Raptors and had no effective support from the other players who the opposition ignored. Vince became demoralized with his situation and that affected his attitude. Now in NJ he is blossoming again with no complaints either.




> The team isn't that different from last year, when Bosh seldom saw double teams. There isn't a need to double team Bosh when even with his production the Raptors are lacking everywhere else. If he does get doubled than that's just the way things are. Good players on good teams get doubled too--it's basic basketball strategy, and it's not like he's never faced double- and triple-teams in his career. If he wants to grow he'll need to learn how to deal with these things.
> 
> And for the record, Bosh is hardly someone to shy away from a challenge.


Oh let's can this ad hominem stuff and get down to reality. The Raptors are completely different from last year because of the rookies and other new players added to the team. Past players are still trying to step up to the next level ... and most are at the top of their game and can't give any more.

At this point of Bosh's career he must begin to look at his long term interests, and whether that includes the Raptors. In order to hit the big money he still has to prove himself over the next two seasons. Equally, the development of the Raptors must accomodate Bosh's needs .. because it certainly did not for Carter !!! Bosh must determine where he wants to continue his career if the Raptors do not become a winning team within the next 2 seasons. That seems obvious to me.




> Talking about Bosh's career already on the downhill is just the worst kind of doom-and-gloom bull****. If you want to talk in worst case scenarios feel free but you also happen to be especially harsh towards fans who are overly optimistic--which is totally hypocritical.


What do you mean by "hypocritical"?? I fully explained the scenario that would lead to Bosh's decline, and I believe this is a distinct possibility if Bosh can't get the necessary support from the rest of this tattered team of rookies, newbies and assorted trade bait. Even Babcock had to accept lesser value for Carter and now Alston. What more proof do you need that the Raptors will get much worse before they get better. Bosh will evaluate his situation at the end of his current Raptor contract and then decide if there is any hope with the Raptors ... but don't be surprised if he asks for a trade after this next season. I won't be surprised ....




> No, those examples don't prove that at all. We didn't pursue those players.
> 
> Any free agent can use any offer as leverage--unless they sign an offer sheet, which in many cases gives a 50-50 chance for both teams.
> 
> Multi-millionaires like Mike James, who said he would opt out of his contract with the Rockets and go to the highest bidder, no matter who they were?


Those examples were given by lucky 777s and my point was that nobody could imagine that Joe Johnson, Al Harrington, Carlos Boozer or Damon Jones would even consider the Raptors as FA's !!! Mike James has no choice but to report to the Raptors because his options are rather limited if he didn't. No I don't think that good established NBA players would consider the Raptors as a team they would want to play for and invest their careers. For them their "fit" into a new team is as important as the other factors you listed, incorrectly.

I believe that the Raptors will be an entry level team for international players and lower pick rookies ... and for older players finishing their careers. Toronto may never reach the heights of LAL, Miami, Texas teams .... because they will not attract nor retain the best NBA players for the simple reason that they will not be able to assemble the necessary players to back up the star players ... e.g Vince Carter and now possibly Chris Bosh. That's the reality I see .. but I am happy that Toronto has a NBA team to bring the other NBA teams to play in Toronto. 

Who knows ... maybe Magloire will return to Toronto in a couple of years and play out the rest of his career in Canada. I think that would help Bosh with his decision to stay or leave.


----------



## ShuHanGuanYu

foul_balls said:


> The ballhogging was in reference to his penchant for taking crazy shots, especially late in the game. As a pg, he has to bring up the ball and initiate the offense, that is what a pg is supposed to do. James will be in the same situation regardless. The point I am making is James is just as much of a shot taker as Rafer is. If you want to argue that Rafer dominates the ball and lets the 24 sec clock run down like Marbury does, that is your opinion. I personally didn't see that last year but I don't have any time counts or stats that back up my opinion.
> 
> The 5 starts mean nothing objectively speaking. While his stats for the 5 games are great (probably when Sura was injured), it still shows the coach didn't want to give him more signficant minutes. He is very valuable as a sixth man but we still got the worst of the trade talent-wise.


Yes, he is valuable as a sixth man. He's good at scoring, which is why they brought him off the bench as a spark. You can't start him and then expect Sura to bring a big offensive punch when he comes in. Sura's not that type of offensive player. That was James' role on the Rockets. That might not be James' role on the Raptors. I wasn't saying Rafer runs down the shot clock (although as a team their shot clock usage is similar to the Knicks). But by watching Raptors games it is obvious that he was most of the time solely responsible for dishing the ball to his teammates (sometimes Rose, but not as often as in the past). Houston doesn't play that way. They put the ball in McGrady's hands. Thus, James is reduced to a jump shooter who works off the dribble. That is not my opinion, that is a fact. Jeff Van Gundy is a half-court set coach, and they run isolations for McGrady or Yao and two man games that don't involve James. I'm not saying Alston is a worse player than James. But I do think the analysis of Mike James should be more fair than simply looking at his assists numbers when they don't give the full story.

When you say "That is what a PG is supposed to do", that's where you've gone wrong. Not all PG's are told to do that. Some are told to give McGrady the ball and let him create. Some are told (Fisher, Ron Harper) to work the triangle offense and not just set guys up for assists. Damon Jones next year will not have many assists, because LeBron will handle the ball.


----------



## foul_balls

ShuHanGuanYu said:


> Yes, he is valuable as a sixth man. He's good at scoring, which is why they brought him off the bench as a spark. You can't start him and then expect Sura to bring a big offensive punch when he comes in. Sura's not that type of offensive player. That was James' role on the Rockets. That might not be James' role on the Raptors. I wasn't saying Rafer runs down the shot clock (although as a team their shot clock usage is similar to the Knicks). But by watching Raptors games it is obvious that he was most of the time solely responsible for dishing the ball to his teammates (sometimes Rose, but not as often as in the past). Houston doesn't play that way. They put the ball in McGrady's hands. Thus, James is reduced to a jump shooter who works off the dribble. That is not my opinion, that is a fact. Jeff Van Gundy is a half-court set coach, and they run isolations for McGrady or Yao and two man games that don't involve James. I'm not saying Alston is a worse player than James. But I do think the analysis of Mike James should be more fair than simply looking at his assists numbers when they don't give the full story.
> 
> When you say "That is what a PG is supposed to do", that's where you've gone wrong. Not all PG's are told to do that. Some are told to give McGrady the ball and let him create. Some are told (Fisher, Ron Harper) to work the triangle offense and not just set guys up for assists. Damon Jones next year will not have many assists, because LeBron will handle the ball.


The examples that you have given don't mean much in Toronto. LA has Kobe to initiate the half-court set. Cleveland has LeBron. Houston has T-Mac to initiate it. That I can agree with but you are also talking about the 3 most talented swingmen in the NBA. Unfortunately, we don't have a swingman of that talent level to initiate the offense. In Toronto, Sam Mitchell wants to run. He wants it to be a fast break offense. Rafer did this well in Toronto. Phoenix or another fast-break team might be a better comparison in offensive sets and the PG Does initiate the offense with those teams. 

I am not only considering the assist numbers. I agree with Speedy and Turkish in that James's role will be different so it is possible that he can be better. However, James' shots/35 min in Milwaukee in a more traditional pg role >18 so I doubt whether he can play Rafer's role. The shots/game are meant to show that he is not a good fit for Toronto when people argue that Rafer was a bad shot taker. 

I've said it before, I hope he proves me wrong or that he can play sg while Jose takes the majority of pg minutes. But IMO, he doesn't seem to have the right mix of talent to play pg for 35 minutes a night.


----------



## ShuHanGuanYu

foul_balls said:


> The examples that you have given don't mean much in Toronto. LA has Kobe to initiate the half-court set. Cleveland has LeBron. Houston has T-Mac to initiate it. That I can agree with but you are also talking about the 3 most talented swingmen in the NBA. Unfortunately, we don't have a swingman of that talent level to initiate the offense. In Toronto, Sam Mitchell wants to run. He wants it to be a fast break offense. Rafer did this well in Toronto. Phoenix or another fast-break team might be a better comparison in offensive sets and the PG Does initiate the offense with those teams.
> 
> I am not only considering the assist numbers. I agree with Speedy and Turkish in that James's role will be different so it is possible that he can be better. However, James' shots/35 min in Milwaukee in a more traditional pg role >18 so I doubt whether he can play Rafer's role. The shots/game are meant to show that he is not a good fit for Toronto when people argue that Rafer was a bad shot taker.
> 
> I've said it before, I hope he proves me wrong or that he can play sg while Jose takes the majority of pg minutes. But IMO, he doesn't seem to have the right mix of talent to play pg for 35 minutes a night.


The examples I gave weren't supposed to mean anything for Toronto. I was explaining why his assists number might have been lower than he's capable of. He was the backup PG in Milwaukee as well, required to deliver scoring off the bench. So it's hard to use those to determine what his production will be in a starting role and with new direction from his coaching staff. He was never before asked to fill the distributor role, so we'll see how he performs. 

My response was based on the fact that in your original post, all you gave in regards to running the offense were assist numbers and shots taken. You didn't take into account the fact that James was supposed to shoot the ball more, as he was a bench scorer. You brought up the 1.7 difference in per 35 minute assists numbers and used that to say why getting James compounds the problem that Toronto has. And that is the part I disagree with. Rafer was a bad shot taker because he was just that...a bad shot taker. He shot a low percentage. If he could hit around 44% of his shots, I don't think Toronto would have had much of a problem with him shooting the ball. Rafer's shot is inconsistent and he takes ill advised shots, leading to a 41FG% that is actually near his career high. James is streaky too, but shoots a higher %. Like you said, they want to run. When teams run, the PG usually has a higher chance to garner assists. James is still quick and could also thrive in a fast break offense. It remains to be seen.


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## foul_balls

As far as I could tell, the point was that he was a SG in Houston so he didn't have to distribute cuz TMac was there. As the backup playing the point in Milwaukee, he did have to distribute which is why I brought that up.

You bring up a good point. Mike James was the BACKUP pg in Milwaukee. He wasn't good enough to play more minutes at pg. This should also help show it is a talent downgrade. 

You can argue that Mike James has a higher career FG% just like I can argue that Rafer has a higher career 3PT%.

Anyways, we finally agree on one thing. It remains to be seen whether he can run a team efficiently enough to deserve 35 min/game. As a raptors fan, I hope I am wrong so the Raptors put out an exciting product.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

foul_balls said:


> As far as I could tell, the point was that he was a SG in Houston so he didn't have to distribute cuz TMac was there. As the backup playing the point in Milwaukee, he did have to distribute which is why I brought that up.
> 
> You bring up a good point. Mike James was the BACKUP pg in Milwaukee. He wasn't good enough to play more minutes at pg. This should also help show it is a talent downgrade.
> 
> You can argue that Mike James has a higher career FG% just like I can argue that Rafer has a higher career 3PT%.
> 
> Anyways, we finally agree on one thing. It remains to be seen whether he can run a team efficiently enough to deserve 35 min/game. As a raptors fan, I hope I am wrong so the Raptors put out an exciting product.


Mo Williams was playing well, and Mike James was just starting to put together some good games. I don't get why you're saying that he was a "BACKUP" PG in Milwaukee means it's a talent downgrade. I already said that isn't what I was trying to argue here. If you wanna go back and use old stats, in Detroit he had 6.6 assists per 35 minutes. That ties what Rafer did. So it's not like he is automatically incapable of running the team without being the same problem they had with Rafer. Besides, who else would have played PG if Rafer didn't? Milt Palacio? Alvin Williams was injured last year, and he started over Alston two years ago. It's not like Toronto had a hell of a lot of choice in who to play at PG. In Milwaukee, Mo Williams was progressing nicely. He and James split minutes.

Career stats are dumb when comparing players. Last year, Mike James had a better shooting % in both areas (FG and 3pt) than Rafer Alston. Fact.


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## butr

James was just on with Swirsk. A true professional.


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## Crossword

blowuptheraptors said:


> James was just on with Swirsk. A true professional.


 Nice, what did he say?


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## Mr_B

for those who care Rafer on BET rapcity right now


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## Turkish Delight

Mr_B said:


> for those who care Rafer on BET rapcity right now


Damn I was at school. What happend?


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## KoBe & BeN GoRdOn!

that was probably the best trade the raps have done in a while!


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## speedythief

KoBe & BeN GoRdOn! said:


> that was probably the best trade the raps have done in a while!


At least since trading for Bonner.


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## Turkish Delight

speedythief said:


> At least since trading for Bonner.


Wouldn't we have gotten Chris Duhon though? 
I like the trade that got us Pape Sow and Uros Slokar. Even though it may never be a franchise-changing trade, it has and probably will do us a lot of good.


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## butr

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Nice, what did he say?


Is not showing a bit of *****ing depite moving from his wife's hometown. He's very positive. He is an all out kind of player, on both ends.

Chuck brought up the last game Raps v. Miami where we were fighting for the 4th pick in the draft, or 4th best chance at Lebron. Mike ended up hitting a big three down the stretch despite Riley publicly wanting to win the pick not the game.

Mike just said if you don't want to win, don't put me in the game. That is all he is about.


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## Porn Player

sound good. i aint gone lie i was pretty gutted we lost rafer bt am keepin my thoughts to myself untill the season starts its pointless bashing around old info its all about what happens next season.


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## Turkish Delight

skip_dawg! said:


> sound good. i aint gone lie i was pretty gutted we lost rafer bt am keepin my thoughts to myself untill the season starts its pointless bashing around old info its all about what happens next season.


It'll be interesting to see how both players perform for their respective teams. Personally, I think this is a pretty solid trade for both teams, and there may not be any clear cut loser in this. We'll just have to wait and see.


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## foul_balls

ShuHanGuanYu,

I agree that Mo Williams and Mike James are a better combo than Rafer and Milt. And James definitely deserves more minutes than Milt. If Rafer and Mike were on the same team, Mike would have taken some minutes from Rafer but Mike James doesn't start ahead of him, IMO. If Mike is even a bit close to starting over Rafer or if it is even, there is no incentive for Houston to make the deal and take on Rafer's longer contract.

My main arguments are to counter what some people say point to to show that the deal is good for Toronto. People pointed to his fewer shots per game as other proof that Toronto got the best of the trade but that wasn't the case when comparing per/35 minutes. James's propensity to shoot is just as bad as Rafer's. James is suited to a off-the bench spark G role when i said he is suited to backup, and not Rafer's role.

I brought up career FG% because I thought that is what you had originally brought up, but if you want to discuss last season, fine. Mike James did shoot better last season (44.1) vs. Rafer (41.4). If Rafer had shot 44%, his ppg would have increased by 0.66 points (26 baskets). That is also a Fact and not exactly a huge difference, which is why I originally called it a wash in a previous post.

Your point about Detroit is good although it is still a bit of a small sample (26). His Boston numbers would be a better comparison. Rafer Ast/35 over 80 games: 6.62, James Ast/35 over 55 games: 5.07. If we get the guy who can provide 6.6 assists, then Toronto wins the deal. We will see which pg turns up in Toronto.


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## Mr_B

Turkish Delight said:


> Damn I was at school. What happend?


I caught it at the very end so I didn't see much but 1st rafer did a few moves from his and 1 days they talked about and 1 for a bit then jimmy asked him what happned between him and sam,rafer basiclly down played it saying it was nuttin but one thing I noticed though rafer talked about how profesinal the heat were in pratraces after a loss then compared it to toronto even though he didn't say it you can tell he was favouring miami nuttin big it seems like it was recorded before the trade though since he gave a shout out to all his toronto teamates


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