# anyone think gilbert arenas is overrated?



## rwj333

I read alot about how hes gonna get like 6 million a year this year and such. His coach, Eric Musselman even remarked that he has as much potential to become a Gary Payton. However, I feel he is just a good player on a bad team. And, although I do not overrate stats, I have noticed that is assist-turnover is poor and he only averages 5 assists a game. 
I feel any team signing him for more that the midlevel exception will make a big mistake... thoughts?


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## rynobot

moved by rynobot


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## johnston797

*A few thoughts*

He is just 21.

He is averaging 6.2 assists per game. 3.3 TO. Not a great ratio but better than last year. 

I have some concern that he will want to be THE PG for his team and he might be best utilized in a Bobby Jackson role but with starters minutes.

Arenas is a stud & I think any team would be lucky to sign him to a long term contract at 6 or 7M per. More than that would be a gamble.


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## p

i think that Golden State should try as hard as possible to get rid of some contracts to be able to sign him...

more likely, i see him going to Denver for bigger dollars tho...


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## digital jello

Every player when on the brink of "breaking out" seems to be called on being overrated.

Arenas is good, he may become great, but we won't know unless he starts putting up consistent star numbers.

I don't think he's overrated. I think he's an up and coming player under the microscope.


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## dr-dru

what? if someone is comparing him to GP, than yeah he is overrated. He's not really a great true pg right now, but he sure can score almost at will...and he's only in his 2nd year. Plus, he has some weak d, but that should improve.


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## rainman

> Originally posted by <b>dr-dru</b>!
> what? if someone is comparing him to GP, than yeah he is overrated. He's not really a great true pg right now, but he sure can score almost at will...and he's only in his 2nd year. Plus, he has some weak d, but that should improve.


good call


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## NugzFan

the kid is gonna be great. 

in denver.


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## Basket-Baller

If you have not seen him play 50 games this season, you won't be able to see the stuff he pulls. Gilbert Arenas, at age 21, can finish over almost anyone. He makes hard shots look easy. He blows by vitrually every defender. He gets caught at times on defense, but anticipates very well. He's definitely not overrated


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## D-Wade

The word is... 

"underrated"

:yes:


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## Tom

with the help of Danny Fortson the sky is the limit


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## nybus54

> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> the kid is gonna be great.
> 
> in denver.


Good call!


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## JerryWest

Nope, arenas will be a star in the league


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## Sicky Dimpkins

Stupid me wanted him for the Bull before the draft instead of "Jay".

I'm such an idiot and I'm so glad Krause played it "safe" and drafted an inferior player. 

:hurl:


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## Sean

> anyone think gilbert arenas is overrated?

Nope.

Overhyped right now? maybe. But that's only because he is catching the attention of those outside the bay area. I'd love to have him back home in purple and gold next year, not that there is a chance in hell that it would, but I'd love to have him. He's young, talented and not afraid.


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## JoeF

> Originally posted by <b>rwj333</b>!
> I read alot about how hes gonna get like 6 million a year this year and such. His coach, Eric Musselman even remarked that he has as much potential to become a Gary Payton. However, I feel he is just a good player on a bad team. And, although I do not overrate stats, I have noticed that is assist-turnover is poor and he only averages 5 assists a game.
> I feel any team signing him for more that the midlevel exception will make a big mistake... thoughts?


He will get more than the mid level exception. If another team wants him and GS only has the Mid level exception available then they will sign him to a deal at least slightly above the mid level exception so GS can't match. Kind of like Memphis did to get Watson from the Sonics. Right?


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## dr-dru

so it really is all up to arenas if he wants to sign next year for less money or not.


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## STOMP

lets say Gil is looking at two 6 year deals this offseason, one from the Warriors and one from team X (which has the capspace). Starting at 4.5 with the standard allowable 10% increases the W's offer goes like this...

4.5, 4.95, 5.45, 6, 6.6, 7.25 or approx 34.75 mil overall

same drill with team X but hypothetical starting point at 7

7, 7.7, 8.5, 9.35, 10.3, 11.3 for approx 54.15 mil 

I think it's very reasonable to speculate that this is the 20 million dollar question that he will be facing him this offseason... it may actually be more like 30+. Bibby and Jason Williams both signed long term deals starting higher then 7 per last offseason, and neither has ever put up numbers like Arenas has the last season and a half. If given the choice between the 3, I'd take Gilbert in a heartbeat. Maybe he's the one guy that will turn his back on those sorts of dollars... 

STOMP


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## Minstrel

Gilbert Arenas is still underrated. I talk to a lot of NBA fans that don't live around the Bay Area and they know him either as "one of the young talents on a bad Warriors franchise" or "that guy that Musselman benches in the fourth quarter for Boykins."

People know more and see more of Boykins on national highlight shows.

Arenas is one of two extremely high upside young point guards in the league...the other being Tony Parker. I'd take Arenas in a heartbeat over Parker because he's a more consistently excellent scorer and has much better size.

Arenas will be the best player the Warriors lose since Chris Webber. No, he's not Gary Payton, or even close, today...but he's still so young, he could be the elite point guard in the NBA in the league by the time he's in his prime. Bibby, Nash, Miller are all good point guards but they can't touch Arenas in pure talent. Only J. Kidd, G. Payton and S. Marbury have innate talent like Arenas and they've reached it. Arenas, obviously, won't merit such comparisons until he reaches his.

It's simply amazing that the Warriors have put themselves in a position to lose yet another tremendous player. Webber and Sprewell could have been a great combination. Arenas is likely to be a special player. When will the reign of horrible GMs (Twardzik, St. Jean) end for Golden State?


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## Pause

Arenas is a much better pro then i ever thought he would be..


I see allot of his games on the dish and he is an extremely creative player.. he is not just a stat guy on a bad team like Shareef Abdur Rahim who is the worst 20pt 10 rb guy ive ever seen..


Do people really think hell go to denver for just a few mroe million? if he does hes a moron the warriors are an up and coming team even if ther nuggets draft picks pan out which is remained to be seen theyre still years away from being decent.. are players that obsessed with getting every penny they can no matter where they go or how miserable theyll be??


If he goes to denver by this timee next year hes gonna realize it was a mistake unless hes just one of these guys who looks at basketball as more of a job then loving it and just wants to get every penny he can get..


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## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Pause</b>!
> Do people really think hell go to denver for just a few mroe million? if he does hes a moron the warriors are an up and coming team even if ther nuggets draft picks pan out which is remained to be seen theyre still years away from being decent...


Is 20-30 mil just a few? The Nuggets could be up and running a lot sooner then years from now IMO. Just look at the W's from last year to this going from worst record in the league to .500. With only 5 guys taking the floor at a time, teams can turn things around in a hurry.

STOMP


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## The_Sandstorm

So you believe that Arenas would want to leave a team that he helped get to .500 to try to start again with a team that most likely won't see a .500 season in the next two years? that he would leave a team that is just starting to reach their potential and that is beginning to gel together for a team that "could be up and running?" the warriors get 3 very big steals in the draft (richardson might not seem like a steal but with his showmanship at the all star game and his willingness to try to get better he will reach a good level and draw in money), and all three are friends and have the same agent. this gives him more incentive to stay. true, money pushes a lot of people, but there are things like loyalty, friendship, home, etc. that also drive people. i know they have a lot of raw talent and if they get lebron that's a big plus, but they still will be raw talent. nene seems to progress but will still take time before he reaches the talent level that denver needs and skit is coming along slowly. i know lebron is a damn good player but he's still gonna be a high school kid working to get to the NBA level and probably won't reach that height until at the earliest halfway through his second year. look at all the high school jumps...they end up tiring out or slowing down (look at amare's recent rookie wall)...i am not guaranteeing that arenas will stay (hopefully he will), but IMO he would have more fun and a better chance if he sticks than if he goes to an unrefined raw talent team like Denver.


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## NugzFan

well with the talent we could add, he wouldnt lose alot in the w/l column next year PLUS he would get paid. thats the dilemna.


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## Pause

besides the draft the nuggets arent gonna add much in the free agents theyre pipe dream of getting a kidd or payton or any huge free agent out there is ridicolous..

a gilbert arenas corey magette type player are the only getable free agents on the nuggets list..


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## STOMP

pause- care to give any reasoning behind your Nugget predictions? Personally I think that Americans like to be "shown the money", and often thats the main reason they choose one job offer over another. In Gilbert's situation, likely he'll be shown a lot more then a few million more to entice him to Denver. If they do add him, I don't think that Kidd will be in their sights though MaGetty might. I'd guess that they could add Gil for 7, Corey for 4, leaving them still 7 mil under for another very good FA. If the right guy isn't out there for them this offseason, they could always wait untill next year. Thats been one of Saint's biggest faults (IMO), always spending the money as soon as he could, and making moves seemingly just to make moves.

With all the variables that could happen as far as Denver's roster makeup, it's really impossible to predict how good/bad they will be next season.... but I think they could be good (above .500) next year if everything breaks right for them.

STOMP


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>Pause</b>!
> besides the draft the nuggets arent gonna add much in the free agents theyre pipe dream of getting a kidd or payton or any huge free agent out there is ridicolous..
> 
> a gilbert arenas corey magette type player are the only getable free agents on the nuggets list..


exactly.


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## BigChris

The Heat and Clippers are the only teams the Warriors have to worry about nabbing Gilbert IMO. I don't see any good young players wanting to play in Denver(a la the Bulls situation a few years ago).

Less media coverage, worse weather, worse city, worse team, etc. in Denver, which has to be taken into account.


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>BigChris</b>!
> The Heat and Clippers are the only teams the Warriors have to worry about nabbing Gilbert IMO. I don't see any good young players wanting to play in Denver(a la the Bulls situation a few years ago).
> 
> Less media coverage, worse weather, worse city, worse team, etc. in Denver, which has to be taken into account.


close, but no.

first of all the heat wont have enough space to get arenas. they are out. 

2nd the clips will have space but they wont use it on another FA when they have 5 big time FA of their own to worry about. if they even sign 2 to long term big deals id be shocked.

after the warriors and nuggets, maybe the spurs could get him but thats it. 

check up on the facts.


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## dr-dru

i feel arenas will wait to after the draft to make his decision. he'll chose depending on what the warriors or nugs do in the draft.


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## BigChris

> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> 
> 
> close, but no.
> 
> first of all the heat wont have enough space to get arenas. they are out.
> 
> 2nd the clips will have space but they wont use it on another FA when they have 5 big time FA of their own to worry about. if they even sign 2 to long term big deals id be shocked.
> 
> after the warriors and nuggets, maybe the spurs could get him but thats it.
> 
> check up on the facts.


Here's the facts:

The heat lose Alonzo, Ellis, Best, and Stepania's contracts next year, plus Lampley, Rasual Butler, etc. all have team options. They will have a ton of cap space. 

And what mid-20 year old wouldn't wanna live in south beach?

The Clippers have the cap room, plus more leverage because of the hometown thing. If they think Miller's not worth the large contract he expects, Arenas would be a very good replacement. 

Like I said, the Clippers and Heat will become major players in the Arenas sweepstakes. Especially if GA keeps playing the way he's been lately. Barring a miracle(aka Lebron and a major FA signing), I'd say the Nuggets are the least likely destination for Arenas right now.


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## STOMP

Saint's misdealings and Arenas...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2003/03/13/SP248797.DTL

STOMP


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## Tactics

I think he is underrated, he puts up great stats for it only being his second year and he's not on a bad team, its not like hes the only player with talent, hes just on a young team


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>BigChris</b>!
> 
> 
> Here's the facts:
> 
> The heat lose Alonzo, Ellis, Best, and Stepania's contracts next year, plus Lampley, Rasual Butler, etc. all have team options. They will have a ton of cap space.
> 
> And what mid-20 year old wouldn't wanna live in south beach?
> 
> The Clippers have the cap room, plus more leverage because of the hometown thing. If they think Miller's not worth the large contract he expects, Arenas would be a very good replacement.
> 
> Like I said, the Clippers and Heat will become major players in the Arenas sweepstakes. Especially if GA keeps playing the way he's been lately. Barring a miracle(aka Lebron and a major FA signing), I'd say the Nuggets are the least likely destination for Arenas right now.


no, they wont. you cant say "uh team A dumps 10 mill in contracts so they get 10 mill in cap space". 

because if so, then the blazers woudl have about 20 mill to spend this summer when pippens deal is done.

the heat will have maybe a little at most. not nearly enough to get arenas. maybe kandi, who likes the heat.

and you think sterling will pay arenas the big bucks when he wont pay his own guys? lol. think man! think. you arent thinking.

the only 2 players outside GSW that could be players are the spurs and nuggets. only difference is the nuggets have him higher on their list than the spurs do (because they can sign better players). the nuggets are a top 2 contender for arenas. why? cuz there is no one else and we have genuine interest in the kid.


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## BigChris

> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> 
> 
> no, they wont. you cant say "uh team A dumps 10 mill in contracts so they get 10 mill in cap space".
> 
> because if so, then the blazers woudl have about 20 mill to spend this summer when pippens deal is done.
> 
> the heat will have maybe a little at most. not nearly enough to get arenas. maybe kandi, who likes the heat.
> 
> and you think sterling will pay arenas the big bucks when he wont pay his own guys? lol. think man! think. you arent thinking.
> 
> the only 2 players outside GSW that could be players are the spurs and nuggets. only difference is the nuggets have him higher on their list than the spurs do (because they can sign better players). the nuggets are a top 2 contender for arenas. why? cuz there is no one else and we have genuine interest in the kid.


Buddy, you don't have any idea what you're talking about. 

You're comparing two entirely different scenarios - the heat with a 50 or so million dollar payroll this season, to the blazers, who have one of the highest payrolls in the nba. Bad logic from the starts.

The heat will be at about 30 million in guaranteed contracts next year. Seeing as the cap is rumored to rise - remember, the current cap by rule of the CBA is about 48% of the BRI, which is gonna be high this year - I'll only assume the cap falls somewhere between 44 and 45 million for the 03-04 season. That leaves the Heat with over 13 million in capspace, meaning *if* they wanted to they could grab Arenas for about 6-7 million(which is what he'll probably get) a year and still opt to keep their 2nd rounders without approaching the cap.

If Arenas continues to play at the level he's been playing lately, what makes you think a rebuilding team like Miami that needs a PG won't start to notice? I think that's a pretty fair assumption.

And why wouldn't Sterling look at Arenas as a viable second pg option if Miller - who is rumored to be headed to Utah - asks for somewhere between 8-9 million a year? A cheapskate like Sterling not being interested in saving up to 20 million dollars and still getting a quality pg?


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## thegza

I feel that Gilbert Arenas has alot of talent and potential and just that alone makes the media just hype him up. His numbers show that he can shoot and his assist look pretty nice, even though he does turn the ball over alot but that's just just normal for a fairly new commer to the NBA. Arenas has proved that when he is playing on top form he has what it takes to do it all and he is one of the PG's for the future. He is going to probably move out of the Warriors next season and I feel that the Heat would be a perfect spot for him because they don't really have a starting point guard with the position on lock.

Arenas fits nicely with the Heat and with Pat Riley's rebuilding right now it would be perfect for him to be groomed there and Riley will definately improve his defense. He would become a superstar at Miami and wouldn't take anything away from the team because they are still rebuilding. It's a perfect match if you ask me. Props to Gilbert Arenas, I'm really feeling him. He's something special, I tell you.


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>BigChris</b>!
> 
> 
> Buddy, you don't have any idea what you're talking about.
> 
> You're comparing two entirely different scenarios - the heat with a 50 or so million dollar payroll this season, to the blazers, who have one of the highest payrolls in the nba. Bad logic from the starts.
> 
> The heat will be at about 30 million in guaranteed contracts next year. Seeing as the cap is rumored to rise - remember, the current cap by rule of the CBA is about 48% of the BRI, which is gonna be high this year - I'll only assume the cap falls somewhere between 44 and 45 million for the 03-04 season. That leaves the Heat with over 13 million in capspace, meaning *if* they wanted to they could grab Arenas for about 6-7 million(which is what he'll probably get) a year and still opt to keep their 2nd rounders without approaching the cap.
> 
> If Arenas continues to play at the level he's been playing lately, what makes you think a rebuilding team like Miami that needs a PG won't start to notice? I think that's a pretty fair assumption.
> 
> And why wouldn't Sterling look at Arenas as a viable second pg option if Miller - who is rumored to be headed to Utah - asks for somewhere between 8-9 million a year? A cheapskate like Sterling not being interested in saving up to 20 million dollars and still getting a quality pg?


just stop. the heat will have about 5 mill in cap space. the cap is around 41-42 mill...might drop to 40-41. i dont konw where you get your info from but i bet its from barkley and kenny on tnt or something. plus they have a penalty for having too few players on the roster. yes that is true. 

you think if they had 13 mill people would be talkin about it dont ya? you think you found some loophole or some secret that no one knows about? lol. get real. seriously take a day off and read teh CBA, read about salaries and the rules and come back informed.

as for sterling if he wont pay miller 5 or 6 mill (im sure miller wont stay for the MLE with utah offering more) why would he give arenas MORE (yes arenas will get more if he leaves...no doubt about it...probably AT LEAST starting at 7 or 8). sterling is cheap - he has his OWN free agents to worry about. hes not getting arenas. not a chance. 

MAYBE the spurs. im not counting them out.

you are out of your league man.


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>Jamal</b>!
> 
> Arenas fits nicely with the Heat and with Pat Riley's rebuilding right now it would be perfect for him to be groomed there and Riley will definately improve his defense. He would become a superstar at Miami and wouldn't take anything away from the team because they are still rebuilding. It's a perfect match if you ask me. Props to Gilbert Arenas, I'm really feeling him. He's something special, I tell you.


yes IF the heat had max cap space (or at least NEAR max) then i would think they would be a viable option for arenas. but the fact is they dont. and its going to be very hard to get more. maybe if that anthony carter thing falls the heats way it might give em more but unlikely. plus their cap space is being eaten up by 2 guys for the most part. that inflicts a penalty for having too few players signed. 

add to that arenas wants to stay west and i doubt miami gets arenas. i think, by them having more than the MLE to spend, it gives miami a slight advantage over most teams and they can snag a good FA for cheap (such as kandi or odom). but other than that, they wont be a factor this summer.


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## BigChris

> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> 
> 
> yes IF the heat had max cap space (or at least NEAR max) then i would think they would be a viable option for arenas. but the fact is they dont. and its going to be very hard to get more. maybe if that anthony carter thing falls the heats way it might give em more but unlikely. plus their cap space is being eaten up by 2 guys for the most part. that inflicts a penalty for having too few players signed.
> 
> add to that arenas wants to stay west and i doubt miami gets arenas. i think, by them having more than the MLE to spend, it gives miami a slight advantage over most teams and they can snag a good FA for cheap (such as kandi or odom). but other than that, they wont be a factor this summer.


*scratching head* (Did this idiot just say the salary cap is going to drop this year?)

Please, for your own sake, stop stealing your "info" from guys off of warriorsworld.net and think for yourself a second. [email protected]"That anthony carter thing". You don't even know what you're talking about, just trying to wax poetic.

And uh, the cap isn't at "41 or 42 million" this year, it's at approximately 40.2 million and is DUE for a rise. How are you going to tell me to "study the cba" when you don't even know that?

It's been heavily reported since late 2002 that, after the first decrease in the history of the salary cap(less tv money), that the cap will rise this year plenty, smart guy. Factors that weigh heavily into this: the average salary per player is scheduled to rise next season in long-term guaranteed contracts, plus free agent signings, the increase in the mid-level exception, and those "exceptions" in the CBA you didn't know about.

Do you even know what the Heat's payroll is right now? They have Alonzo's 20 million dollar contract coming off the books, they only have 3 guaranteed contracts(and one is Butler's rookie salary), then every other contract is a team option. 

The heat will have plenty of cap space, and if you think Gilbert Arenas is worth anywhere near "the max", you don't even know what the max salary is anyways.

And yes, the little cute pseudo-punchline "enders" are cute, but please have some content if you're going to pull them out your ***. Thanks


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>BigChris</b>!
> 
> 
> *scratching head* (Did this idiot just say the salary cap is going to drop this year?)


yes and it might (it hasnt been determined yet). i know you want to believe what makes sense to you but if you arent going to put forth the effort and do your homework to look up facts, then why bother posting at all? you are just now getting into this debate and you are months behind. 



> Please, for your own sake, stop stealing your "info" from guys off of warriorsworld.net and think for yourself a second. [email protected]"That anthony carter thing". You don't even know what you're talking about, just trying to wax poetic.


nice try but i have done ALOT of research on this my self unlike you who just takes what he hears from tom tolbert on tnt or something. :laugh:

i dont know what im talking about - damn boy, thats a mistake. look below for a direct quote that basically shoots you down. ouch! 



> And uh, the cap isn't at "41 or 42 million" this year, it's at approximately 40.2 million and is DUE for a rise. How are you going to tell me to "study the cba" when you don't even know that?


id love to see where you got that! 



> It's been heavily reported since late 2002 that, after the first decrease in the history of the salary cap(less tv money), that the cap will rise this year plenty, smart guy. Factors that weigh heavily into this: the average salary per player is scheduled to rise next season in long-term guaranteed contracts, plus free agent signings, the increase in the mid-level exception, and those "exceptions" in the CBA you didn't know about.


not this year. the following year. early estimates had this summers cap figure at 42 or so. it might drop below that (thats why even the nuggets potential cap space has dropped!). but again, they dont know until after the season. it is based on a percetnage of certain revenues that the league wont know about until june or so.



> Do you even know what the Heat's payroll is right now? They have Alonzo's 20 million dollar contract coming off the books, they only have 3 guaranteed contracts(and one is Butler's rookie salary), then every other contract is a team option.


and thus they will have a roster penalty inflicted on them. plus their 2003 rookie salary (a couple mill). and maybe carter.



> The heat will have plenty of cap space, and if you think Gilbert Arenas is worth anywhere near "the max", you don't even know what the max salary is anyways.


plenty = 5? sure. maybe 6. not enough for arenas though. 

from espn insider:" With only a projected $6 million in salary-cap space available for the upcoming offseason, the Heat have very few options unless they are able to trade Jones and Grant by the Feb. 20 deadline."

"Otherwise, with their $6 million in cap space, they'll be left to choose among Juwan Howard, Clifford Robinson, Derrick Coleman and P.J. Brown. "

ENJOY : from sun sentinel: "An ambiguity in the NBA's Collective Bargaining Agreement could eliminate the $4.1 million option year the reserve point guard [carter] holds for next season. Such relief would leave the team with upwards of $9 million in cap space for free agency and the offseason trade market."

(like i said, without that help they would have about 5 mill)



> And yes, the little cute pseudo-punchline "enders" are cute, but please have some content if you're going to pull them out your ***. Thanks


-EDITED-. you havent made one actual statement yet! you just THINK that the heat will have major cap room because of zo's deal (lol...you rookie) and that the cap is going up this summer. at most itll be 42 mill. at most. lol. 

and hell, if the heat had cap space wouldnt ya think espn or cnnsi or any major sports agency would mention them with utah, san antonio or denver? ONCE AGAIN, EDITED

start using some real facts please.


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>BigChris</b>!
> the increase in the mid-level exception, and those "exceptions" in the CBA you didn't know about.


just thought id add a little more...

the mle going up has nothing to do with the salary cap - they are independant of each other.

the MLE is based on the the total value of all players contracts divided by 362.5 (12.5 average contracts for each team), where as the salary cap is based on revenue...

so the MLE can go up with the salary cap going down. 

care to try again?


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## oppression

*sigh...*



> and thus they will have a roster penalty inflicted on them. plus their 2003 rookie salary (a couple mill). and maybe carter.


Do you even know what the roster penalty is? The league minimum is applied to the open roster slots...

If the Heat do not pick up options on Ellis and Rasual Butler...they are at $33,542,062...minimum is $366,931 next year...$1,467,724 for the four slots (we'll assume Dallas doesn't give them the second rounder this year)

The current cap situation: $36,477,510 (I doubled the four slots to simulate a first rounder...)

The leagues profit is up because of the reduction of salaries last year...thus, the salary cap will be going back up to normal levels...

However...since Riley wants Anthony and Odom, I would assume he doesn't go after Arenas...


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## BigChris

*Re: sigh...*



> Originally posted by <b>oppression</b>!
> 
> Do you even know what the roster penalty is? The league minimum is applied to the open roster slots...
> 
> If the Heat do not pick up options on Ellis and Rasual Butler...they are at $33,542,062...minimum is $366,931 next year...$1,467,724 for the four slots (we'll assume Dallas doesn't give them the second rounder this year)
> 
> The current cap situation: $36,477,510 (I doubled the four slots to simulate a first rounder...)
> 
> The leagues profit is up because of the reduction of salaries last year...thus, the salary cap will be going back up to normal levels...
> 
> However...since Riley wants Anthony and Odom, I would assume he doesn't go after Arenas...



He doesn't know what he's talking about, man, but I gotta give him an A for effort.



EDITED -JC



BTW, here's an article from your "beloved" ESPN saying the same thing I'm saying and basically disproving everything you've said:

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2002/0716/1406462.html

And heres one site's Miami Heat salary projection:

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/miami.htm

And here's realgm highlighting "that Anthony Carter thing"(lmao):

http://heat.realgm.com/showarticle.php?artid=30


Goodnight.


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## NugzFan

*Re: sigh...*



> Originally posted by <b>oppression</b>!
> 
> Do you even know what the roster penalty is? The league minimum is applied to the open roster slots...
> 
> If the Heat do not pick up options on Ellis and Rasual Butler...they are at $33,542,062...minimum is $366,931 next year...$1,467,724 for the four slots (we'll assume Dallas doesn't give them the second rounder this year)
> 
> The current cap situation: $36,477,510 (I doubled the four slots to simulate a first rounder...)
> 
> The leagues profit is up because of the reduction of salaries last year...thus, the salary cap will be going back up to normal levels...
> 
> However...since Riley wants Anthony and Odom, I would assume he doesn't go after Arenas...


ok. so 36 mill and change. cap at 41-42 mill. so thats 5-6 mill in cap space. exactly what ive been saying.


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## NugzFan

*Re: Re: sigh...*

nice try but you are wrong. i know what im talking about and you continute your attempts at justifying your ignorance. i have even talked to experts about this stuff for months. as a nuggets fan cap space is an important part of our future so i know what im talking about. you are just some rookie trying to get involved with lackluster info.

ive presented all the facts, backed it up and done my research. the heat will have 5-6 mill in cap space at most. thats it. its a fact.

sigh...another EDIT

i do know what the cap is, it MIGHT go down (still hasnt been determined) so dont take your assumptions as facts to back up your ignorance.

and do you think you know more than espn does? LOL worthy right there. :laugh:

this is true. i cant believe you are saying these things. amazing. you are either flat out lying or just dont know anything!


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## NugzFan

why do i bother? 

eh, why not - this is easy:

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#32

32. Let's say a team arranges for all of its players to become free agents at the same time. If they renounce everybody, do they then have a salary total of $0 and a full cap under which to work? 
No. First round draft picks count as team salary (against the cap), unless they are renounced (covered in question number 30 ). * In addition, if a team has fewer than 11 contracted players, unrenounced free agents, and unsigned first-round draft picks, then an amount equal to the rookie minimum salary is charged for each empty roster spot fewer than 11.* For example, if a team has three players under contract, two unrenounced free agents, and one first-round draft pick, the total number of players is six. Their team salary is charged for the five remaining roster spots to take the total to 11. For the 99-00 season, since the rookie minimum salary is $301,875, their team salary would be charged a total of $1,509,375. 


theres ya roster penalty. this hurts the heat. they will have grant, jones, carter, butler and the rookie. thats 5 leaving a penalty of 6 roster spots.


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## NugzFan

this link: http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2002/0716/1406462.html

doesnt back up what you are saying nor refute what im saying!

im saying the heat will have 5-6 mill in cap space at most. that article doesnt address it.

im saying the MLE is based on salary averages - that article talks about lux tax (something we havent even brought up because its a non factor in this debate), totally unrelated

im saying the heat will have a penalty for roster spots unfilled...true. showed that above.

im saying the cap MIGHT go down based on revenues - that articles shows the cap went down before...it can again. we dont konw until june when we see the final #s. if it goes up, well denver and everyone else gets more cap space. if it goes down, we all lose it. it just helps the players, not the teams.

re; the carter situation. i linked directly to the sun sentinel article already discussing the matter. you linked to a fan report that starts with a quote from bobby mcferrin and then quotes the same article that i already posted (notice it says "The Sun-Sentinel's Ira Winderman wrote")! lmao. 

i already talked about this in detail after you denied it existed. ive said if it goes through it will help the heat but chances are it doenst. and now you are basically agreeing with me, but trying to steal my credit.

OR maybe you trying to dismiss it as a nonfactor...as a joke...as a meaningless minor event having little to no barring on the heats future cap space. well then, too bad (4 mill is alot!). either way you messed up on this one.

care to try again?


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## NugzFan

even more! woohoo!

from march 14th, 2003: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/sports/basketball/5388874.htm

"Depending on the salary cap, the Heat will have $5 million to $7 million available to try to get at least one quality veteran."


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## NugzFan

and using your OWN LINK once again: http://hoopshype.com/salaries/miami.htm

jones: $12.32 mill
grant: $12.234 mill
carter: $4.06 mill
butler: $1.795 mill
2003 rookie (assuming 5th spot for now): $2.109 mill (from here: http://hoopshype.com/draft.htm )

total: $32.518 mill

add to that 6 minimum roster slot penalties: 6 times $366,931 (from here: http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#9 )
equals $2.201 mill

new total: $34.7 mill

if cap is at 41 mill, that is 6 mill in cap space.

if its at 42 mill, then thats 7 mill. 

and back to the topic at hand...is that enough for arenas? no. is that max level cap space? no. AND thats under the assumption miami signs no one else (odom, kandi, howard, brown, etc). AND it puts them at the cap limit already to fill their roster with minimum salaries guys. good strategy? maybe, maybe not.

and hell if it goes up to 42 mill, thats more for denver to spend on arenas and others. :yes:

edit; with the MLE rising to ~5 mill, 6 mill in cap space is good but its not as powerful of a bargaining tool as it would have been a few years ago.


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## the mail man

IMO, If anything Gilbert Arenas would have to be under rated, and so is Earll Boykins. They are bolth greatr players who at this point get little credit.


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## rwj333

*arenas*

I don't see why Riley would sign Arenas in the first place... he likes veterans. I would way there is a .1% chance of Arenas going there. On the other hand, Denver is a very enticing possibility for Gilbert. Kiki Vandeweghe, the GM, is very popular (Elton Brand calls him 'k-money') and the Nuggets have like 18 million in cap space, enough for a max player, and someone at around 6 million per year. That would be Arenas.

I started this thread with the belief that Arenas is Not worth more than the 4.5 mid level exception. In my opinion, he is more of a stephon marbury, score before pass, type of point guard. And, in my opinion, those kinds of point guards do not lead their team to a championship, pure point guards do. Instead, Arenas is more of an undersized scoring/combo guard. I feel he is more of a Bobby Jackson, not a Mike Bibby. Get it?

But anyways, Gilbert Arenas is most probably going to Denver next year, unless he turns down alot of money.


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## NISMO

*AS A WARRIOR FAN*

You clipper, nugz, heat fans could just step off the arenas dream.. he staying here.. and his decision would be a lot easier if the warriors make it to the playoffs... which would make him want to stay... We are at 35 and 37 and playing the next couple of games in the east... which increases our chances of getting to .500 ball again being in the west.

Even though if the W's don't get to the playoffs.. their record speaks for itself compared to the last few years..

Compared to the Clips... CHEAP AS CRAPPY OWNER< and players that are only looking after themselves.. the won't look like a good destination for arenas' This team is going to be demolished at the end of this year.

Miami- outside of Caron Butler and eddie jones.. Miami dosnt have anything.. plus the belttight way of riley's coaching would not be the taste arenas would like.

Denver- everyone know's this already.. except for the cap room in which NO- GOOD FA WOULD GO FOR.. and freezing crappy weather... NO talent except for NENE.. who's wanna want to play for them... NO-ONE

He has already said GSW is his #1 option.. and he loves it hear and likes his team mates alot.


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## BigChris

> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> why do i bother?
> 
> eh, why not - this is easy:
> 
> http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#32
> 
> 32. Let's say a team arranges for all of its players to become free agents at the same time. If they renounce everybody, do they then have a salary total of $0 and a full cap under which to work?
> No. First round draft picks count as team salary (against the cap), unless they are renounced (covered in question number 30 ). * In addition, if a team has fewer than 11 contracted players, unrenounced free agents, and unsigned first-round draft picks, then an amount equal to the rookie minimum salary is charged for each empty roster spot fewer than 11.* For example, if a team has three players under contract, two unrenounced free agents, and one first-round draft pick, the total number of players is six. Their team salary is charged for the five remaining roster spots to take the total to 11. For the 99-00 season, since the rookie minimum salary is $301,875, their team salary would be charged a total of $1,509,375.
> 
> 
> theres ya roster penalty. this hurts the heat. they will have grant, jones, carter, butler and the rookie. thats 5 leaving a penalty of 6 roster spots.



lol, nice try, but the roster penalty isn't inflicted immediately following the season. 

And you have wholly proven your [strike]idiocy[/strike] by saying the cap might be going down this season. no need for name calling, thanks.


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## NugzFan

*Re: AS A WARRIOR FAN*



> Originally posted by <b>NISMO</b>!
> You clipper, nugz, heat fans could just step off the arenas dream.. he staying here.. and his decision would be a lot easier if the warriors make it to the playoffs... which would make him want to stay... We are at 35 and 37 and playing the next couple of games in the east... which increases our chances of getting to .500 ball again being in the west.


oh he is? i missed that on sportscenter. 



> Denver- everyone know's this already.. except for the cap room in which NO- GOOD FA WOULD GO FOR.. and freezing crappy weather... NO talent except for NENE.. who's wanna want to play for them... NO-ONE


lol - we got dice (whos your best FA acquisition the last 10 years?). and what players have said they would want to play in denver? besides arenas, brand, odom, maggete, kandi (all the clips basically), ricky davis, derek anderson (when he was good), the list goes on and on 

nice try though! :laugh:



> He has already said GSW is his #1 option.. and he loves it hear and likes his team mates alot.


too bad they cant pay...


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>BigChris</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> lol, nice try, but the roster penalty isn't inflicted immediately following the season.
> 
> And you have wholly proven your idiocy by saying the cap might be going down this season.


i was wondering where you went. but yes, it is. when the FA season starts, the penalty is inflicted. whats the point if its not? teams would ignore it. 

lol - you ignored all my other posts that completely and utterly ripped this debate, tried to comeback and failed again! ouch! :laugh:

dont bother man. just dont bother!

(if you want to keep hiding behind that cap thing, go ahead but its not working...you think one mistake that may or may not be true makes up for everythign else you got wrong? lol...weak!)


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## STOMP

*Re: Re: AS A WARRIOR FAN*



> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> we (Den) got dice (whos your (W's) best FA acquisition the last 10 years?).



Earl Boykins nudges out Saint's big UFA signing Danny Fortson.

STOMP


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## NugzFan

*Re: Re: Re: AS A WARRIOR FAN*



> Originally posted by <b>STOMP</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Earl Boykins nudges out Saint's big UFA signing Danny Fortson.
> 
> STOMP


ouch. ok golden state wins that one. 

btw; i thought they traded for fortson (that 4 team deal)?


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## STOMP

*Re: AS A WARRIOR FAN*



> Originally posted by <b>NISMO</b>!
> Compared to the Clips... CHEAP AS CRAPPY OWNER.


If pro Bball fans were to make up a list of cheap and crappy owners certainly Sterling would top the list... but I think Cohan has clearly separated himself from the pack for his claim on spot #2. Besides sueing or firing everyone in the Bay Area, many of the moves that Saint and other W's GMs have made were dictated by Cohan's overbearing pressense and tight wad... most notably lowballing Webber. If history is any good at predicting the future, Gilbert shouldn't bank on getting a big payday down the line from CC.

STOMP


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## STOMP

*Re: Re: Re: Re: AS A WARRIOR FAN*



> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> btw; i thought they traded for fortson (that 4 team deal)?


whoops you're right of course, they gave up Donyell for Ol' Splinterbutt in that one. Really other then Boykins, I can't recall a free agent in the last 10 years thats recieved any minutes at all.

STOMP


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## TheMatrix31

he is overrated !! he's nothin defence is ok he's still learning...he'll be a Sam Cassel Type player


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## BigChris

> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> 
> 
> i was wondering where you went. but yes, it is. when the FA season starts, the penalty is inflicted. whats the point if its not? teams would ignore it.
> 
> lol - you ignored all my other posts that completely and utterly ripped this debate, tried to comeback and failed again! ouch! :laugh:
> 
> dont bother man. just dont bother!
> 
> (if you want to keep hiding behind that cap thing, go ahead but its not working...you think one mistake that may or may not be true makes up for everythign else you got wrong? lol...weak!)


Uh, the "cap thing" was the point of the debate. lol

You said the Heat wouldn't have the capspace to sign Arenas if they wanted to, and then you changed your tune(and actually helped my debate, lol) and said they will. All the articles and regulations you've pointed to have done nothing but confuse the issue, yet the fact remains: the Heat will have the caproom to sign a player like Arenas.

And the FA signing period doesn't start immediately following the end of the season. It begins in late july.


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## BigChris

> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> and using your OWN LINK once again: http://hoopshype.com/salaries/miami.htm
> 
> jones: $12.32 mill
> grant: $12.234 mill
> carter: $4.06 mill
> butler: $1.795 mill
> 2003 rookie (assuming 5th spot for now): $2.109 mill (from here: http://hoopshype.com/draft.htm )
> 
> total: $32.518 mill
> 
> add to that 6 minimum roster slot penalties: 6 times $366,931 (from here: http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#9 )
> equals $2.201 mill
> 
> new total: $34.7 mill
> 
> if cap is at 41 mill, that is 6 mill in cap space.
> 
> if its at 42 mill, then thats 7 mill.
> 
> and back to the topic at hand...is that enough for arenas? no. is that max level cap space? no. AND thats under the assumption miami signs no one else (odom, kandi, howard, brown, etc). AND it puts them at the cap limit already to fill their roster with minimum salaries guys. good strategy? maybe, maybe not.
> 
> and hell if it goes up to 42 mill, thats more for denver to spend on arenas and others. :yes:
> 
> edit; with the MLE rising to ~5 mill, 6 mill in cap space is good but its not as powerful of a bargaining tool as it would have been a few years ago.


7 million will be enough to sign Arenas. Especially if you throw in , great weather, great environment for a 21 year old, and being exempt of certain taxation in Miami.

Like I said, the chances of Denver getting Arenas are slim to none. The chances of Denver getting anyone good with a 20 win team via free agency are slim to none.

Just get real.


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>BigChris</b>!
> 
> 
> Uh, the "cap thing" was the point of the debate. lol
> 
> You said the Heat wouldn't have the capspace to sign Arenas if they wanted to, and then you changed your tune(and actually helped my debate, lol) and said they will. All the articles and regulations you've pointed to have done nothing but confuse the issue, yet the fact remains: the Heat will have the caproom to sign a player like Arenas.
> 
> And the FA signing period doesn't start immediately following the end of the season. It begins in late july.


no, i didnt.

i said they wont have the cap space, and they wont (unless the carter thing of course...something i never swayed from). i proved it TIME AND TIME again with link after link, facts all over the place and i laid out the salaries in black and white.

all you replied with was 'lol...uh yeah whatever' stuff. if you think 6 or 7 mill is enough for arenas, well then thats your problem. not mine. i could say 'we have enough to sign duncan!' but all it does is get my hopes up. im not dumb. i know whats realistic.

who cares when the FA season starts? that doesnt change anything.


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## NISMO

*I think you forget about federal tax..*

NO ONE IS excempt from federal buddy.. state tax aint a lot but the Fed.. is what takes chunks from your pay check...


And from previous post on the paper and quotes from his dad.. gilbert LOVES California and wants to stay here... and likes being in GSW and the big plus is that it aint far from his home town. in LA.


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