# OT- Darko



## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

I was just watching NBA Coast to Coast and Ric Bucher was saying how Dumars is REALLY looking to ship Darko out for pretty much anything. It seems he wants about a mid first rounder for him. Greg Anthony said he talks to the Pistons' assistants and they all say Darko just feels sorry for himself because he doesn't see himself succeeding in that situation. He has days where he does some great things but other days he realizes he won't be getting any playing time so he goes back to not doing much. I think acquiring Darko for cheap would be great. Here's my deal that I think Joe would be comfortable with.


Darko + Dale Davis 

for

Ruben + Charles Smith + Detroit's pick


It works. We get rid of a couple of swingmen and bail out of our 3 year obligation to that draft pick. At the very least we get a backup for Zach, and Dale Davis' contract is expiring. We can cut him after the deal if we wanted.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

I would love to get Darko. I would include Monia even. 

Monia, Det's 1st rounder and Smith for Darko? Does that work?


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Sambonius said:


> Darko + Dale Davis
> 
> for
> 
> Ruben + Charles Smith + Detroit's pick


How in the world do you figure that Joe D would _"be comfortable"_ with that deal? Why JD would give away both of his deep bench bigs or why he'd want any of what you've got going from Portland is beyond me. I wonder if he'd even really want the 1st back. 1st rounders get 3 year guaranteed contracts, even the last pick in a weak draft like the upcoming one. 

STOMP


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

STOMP said:


> How in the world do you figure that Joe D would _"be comfortable"_ with that deal?


Maybe because Ric Bucher and Greg Anthony said Joe D would take almost anything that could make them a better team for Darko? 



> Why JD would give away both of his deep bench bigs or why he'd want any of what you've got going from Portland is beyond me.


Maybe because both of his deep bench bigs are currently useless? Maybe because Ruben Patterson would be a great backup to Prince? He has the defensive intensity that the rest of the Pistons display on a nightly basis. 



> I wonder if he'd even really want the 1st back. 1st rounders get 3 year guaranteed contracts, even the last pick in a weak draft like the upcoming one.


They (Anthony & Bucher) said they would be interested in a 1st rounder.


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## Utherhimo (Feb 20, 2005)

detroits pick


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

I wonder if something like Monia or Khryapa + Detroit's pick straight up for Darko would get it done. 

Khryapa will be a decent NBA player, probably along the lines of Stacey Augmon. A solid if unspectacular guy to have on a championship-level bench. 

Darko may never amount to Khryapa (or cryapa, for that matter), but he still has an outside shot of being someone special. And it clears up some of our SF situation while getting us our backup PF (and maybe future center).

I'm really curious to see what Nate and Lucas could do with Darko.


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## GOD (Jun 22, 2003)

The Blazers have so many projects right now, that I think they would be stupid to trad VK (one of the few players who has proven he can play and play hard) for a project. Now monia is a project so I would be fine trading him. Monia and Detroits pick for Darko is a go in my book, VK and the pick is not.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

I tend to disagree. As bad as we are, we don't need role players. Guys like Khryapa can be had to fill out any team that's good. The Lakers and Spurs and Pistons have historically picked up those kind of guys for peanuts. 

Bad teams like ours should be working on stumbling into the next star. We need cornerstones right now, not cement. 

Darko probably isn't a cornerstone, but I think he stands a much higher chance of being one than Khryapa, just on the basis of being the second pick in the draft.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

Trade for Darko.

He is, ummm.....

tall.


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: If we can trade role players for Darko, we should do it (Monia, Smith, Ruben, late draft picks). Heck, I'd probably even trade Blake. I'd at least consider Dixon or Viktor. 

Darko may just need a change of scenery, or coaching. Practically our whole team is projects, what's one more, in exchange for someone on our team who at best will be a journeyman? It's not like we are a veteran or a playoff team and getting another long-shot is going to hamper our shot at the playoffs. 

If the Blazers are going to develop into a top 5 team, they aren't going to do it before at least 3 years from now -- probably longer (depressing isn't it?). If Darko is going to develop into a decent to good player he is going to do it within the same time frame as the rest of our current players. Perfect. At the very least he'll become an upgrade at a position of need.


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## crowTrobot (Jun 24, 2005)

Blazer Bert said:


> If the Blazers are going to develop into a top 5 team, they aren't going to do it before at least 3 years from now -- probably longer (depressing isn't it?).


there's no reason to think we can't be top 5 or close in the west RIGHT NOW with what we have. unless we screw up and make bad moves we should be a playoff team next year, and potentially contend soon after. what would happen in longer than 3 years that isn't gonna happen in the next 1-2 (other than webster developing)?


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

crowTrobot said:


> there's no reason to think we can't be top 5 or close in the west RIGHT NOW with what we have. unless we screw up and make bad moves we should be a playoff team next year, and potentially contend soon after. what would happen in longer than 3 years that isn't gonna happen in the next 1-2 (other than webster developing)?


I just don't see it. Our guard lineup is still pretty bad, if not the worst in the West. Our forwards are better than average, but both Miles and Randolph now have an injury history. There's a good chance our starting center won't return next year. 

If we're a playoff team next year without a massive upgrade, it'll be as a lower seed and due to one of our youngsters really busting out. Any way you look at it, we are at least two or three years away from getting out of the first round. 

I want a guy like Khryapa on my team when we are pushing for that second round. We are so far away from that it's just not worth seeing him as a key piece to our team. With his low salary, his youth and his abilities, he's more valuable to us as a trading piece.


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

I agree that the team is still looking for its stars and I also agree with you about Khryapa. He is a good hustle guy but has too many offensive holes in his game to be a starter on a playoff noise making team. Making the scenario more complex is the fact that Outlaws game has continued to improve lately, I have noticed strides in his defense and offense, he still needs work on the boards. If Outlaw continues to improve, I see Viktor as the odd guy out unless he is playing backup PF.


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## crowTrobot (Jun 24, 2005)

theWanker said:


> I just don't see it. Our guard lineup is still pretty bad, if not the worst in the West.


on defense maybe, but offensively our guards are playing pretty well for such a young core. i'm sure utah would be more than happy to swap guards with us at this point. also if miles gets any minutes at 2 (as he should if outlaw continues to improve) that would be a major upgrade.

yeah it all depends on health as always, but if healthy i don't see that many teams clearly ahead of us next year (assuming we hang onto either theo or joel and don't lose both) - dallas, san anton, phoenix, clips. that's about it. everyone else in the entire conference is up/down and could potentially be passed with our current talent if our chemistry continues to improve at the rate it is right now. 

does darko really have more potential than ha?


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

Top 5 in the west is one thing; top 5 in the league is another. I will definitely be pulling for at least a 1st round playoff team next year. Doesn't half the league make the playoffs? 

All of our guys (except Theo and Ruben) are in the 'still improving' part of their careers. For all I know, we may not have enough future stars currently on the team to get us to top 5 status, ever. Or we might. I don't have a crystal ball, but it seems like if we do already have some of those guys, it's going to take a few years to get there. 

If they are so anxious to get rid of Darko that they would take players who we are pretty sure will never be stars for us, or help us during our future 'window', we should grab him and give him a shot.


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

crowTrobot said:


> does darko really have more potential than ha?


Oh, no. We are definitely keeping HA! :starwars: 

No way I trade Ha for Darko.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

actually, I'd be far less inclined to trade Ha. 

I think Ha has poor man's Mark Eaton-level upside. Ugly offense, but incredibly tough and a constant shot blocking threat. 

I doubt Ha really achieves that level, but there's enough potential there that I'm inclined to sit on him until his real value is realized. 

the thing is that Ha has virtually no trade value. Khryapa does.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

theWanker said:


> the thing is that Ha has virtually no trade value. Khryapa does.


A 7'3" monster with pretty good mobility, a microscopic contract with Bird rights when that contract expires and he's only 20 years old? I think that has some value around the league.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

Fork said:


> A 7'3" monster with pretty good mobility, a microscopic contract with Bird rights when that contract expires and he's only 20 years old? I think that has some value around the league.


the difference is that Ha has played hardly any NBA minutes. Ha had all that size and mobility while he was passed on in the first round. 

I personally feel that Ha will wind up being the better player, but he hasn't proven much at all since being drafted. Khryapa has proven that he will likely be an NBA player for a decade. thus, I think Khryapa has far more value right now.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Haven't we done this one to death? The main obstacles are:
1. The main players Detroit needs are (a) a veteran backup PG or (b) a true center. The closest we have to either are Steve Blake and Joel Przybilla. Do we really want to give those up for Darko?
2. No, because DARKO IS A COMPLETE STIFF. Really. Give it up, he has no basketball skills and looks more lost on the court than Travis on a bad day.


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## Utherhimo (Feb 20, 2005)

dark for detroits first rounder  and smith


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

Meru - 

How in the he!! do you know that Darko is a stiff? Seriously, he is like a 20yr kid, and you already assume he cannot play? I don't know many 20yr post players who could supplant Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace and Antonio McDyess for playing time...but apparently you think Darko should be, and b\c he isn't then he must suck...

Obviously the kid's confidence is shaken a little, and IMO he needs a change if scenery, which it appears he will get...He is worth taking a flyer on...

By your criteria, Joel Pryzbilla is a stiff I guess...b\c he sure showed little his 1st few seasons...

I don't think you know what you are talking about when you make such posts...about Darko..about Webster..a 19yr old kid for goodness sake...

Have you even bothered to research the success\failure rate of HS kids into the NBA? Or when the majority of them reach their "NBA potential"?

Obviously not...


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

meru said:


> 1. The main players Detroit needs are (a) a veteran backup PG or (b) a true center. The closest we have to either are Steve Blake and Joel Przybilla. Do we really want to give those up for Darko?


I'd trade Blake for Darko. We don't need him. Obviously I wouldn't trade Joel.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

Blazer Bert said:


> I'd trade Blake for Darko. We don't need him. Obviously I wouldn't trade Joel.


I've been accused of riding Blake's jock once or twice. But I'd trade him for Darko without even thinking about it much.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Kmurph said:


> Meru -
> 
> How in the he!! do you know that Darko is a stiff? Seriously, he is like a 20yr kid, and you already assume he cannot play? I don't know many 20yr post players who could supplant Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace and Antonio McDyess for playing time...but apparently you think Darko should be, and b\c he isn't then he must suck...
> 
> ...


I'm usually on the side of giving the young kids the benefit of the doubt. Lots of guys suck at the age of 18 and improve greatly. I have compared Darko to Jermaine O'Neal in the past, and suffered the wrath of angry rebukes (from Meru I believe.) But I'm not sure Darko is ever going to pan out.

It's not just that he sucked at the age of 18, it's that he hasn't showed any signs (that I've seen) of improving over the 3 years he's been in the league. Jermaine showed flashes of brilliance early. Even Kwame Brown showed a little life during the first couple years. Darko hasn't done much of anything, that I've seen, to merit much hope of improving. 

That said, I'd trade Blake or Dixon for him in a heartbeat. His 2nd contract is sure to be very reasonable and I'd say there's still a 50% chance he ends up being at least a 10 pt, 8 rebound a game guy.


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## Stevenson (Aug 23, 2003)

Ruben would fit in on that Detroit team really really well.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Kmurph said:


> Meru -
> 
> How in the he!! do you know that Darko is a stiff?


By watching him play - what other way is there? (I live in Pistons country.)



> Seriously, he is like a 20yr kid,


You know, I never heard a 20 year old called a "kid" until I came to this country. What is it with you people - retarded development? A 20 year old in football (the real kind) is a veteran. Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney were already stars at 17.

Besides which, Darko is also a player who has been in the league, what, three years? And it's not like he hasn't been given a chance - every time he's on the floor it's obvious the guy's useless.



> Obviously the kid's confidence is shaken a little, and IMO he needs a change if scenery, which it appears he will get...He is worth taking a flyer on...


That's just it - I think his confidence _isn't_ shaken. From what I can gather, in Darko's world he's a star!



> By your criteria, Joel Pryzbilla is a stiff I guess...b\c he sure showed little his 1st few seasons...


Well, I hate to break it to you, but he's certainly stiff-ish. Serviceable, but Dudley-esque. But he at least always knew how to defend. Milicic is completely lost.



> I don't think you know what you are talking about when you make such posts...about Darko..about Webster..a 19yr old kid for goodness sake...


What's the upper limit on "kid"? Of course, on one level, all basketball players are running around in shorts playing a kid's game.

But are you seriously saying that you can't look at a bunch of REAL kids playing basketball and tell which ones get it and which don't? You're always thinking "well, that kid's totally useless - uncoordinated and obviously oblivious to all the other players on his team, but _for all I know_ down the road he's the next Michael Jordan"? I think this is a side-effect of being fed that "This is America, ANYONE can be president" crapola from elementary school on.



> Have you even bothered to research the success\failure rate of HS kids into the NBA? Or when the majority of them reach their "NBA potential"?


"Research"? Oh yeah, I wrote my Ph.D. thesis on it.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Stevenson said:


> Ruben would fit in on that Detroit team really really well.


Erm... no he wouldn't. They actually know how to play team basketball and have two neurons to rub together. Steve Blake, Jarrett Jack, Viktor Khryapa, Joel and Theo, and possibly Juan would fit. But none of them would contribute much, sad to say. The Pistons really need to pick up a solid veteran pass-first PG (because Chauncey Billups is getting worn down and Carlos Arroyo thinks he's on the And-1 tour) and maybe a bruising 7-footer, but that's about it, especially now the other Carlos (Delfino) is starting to be productive.


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## endora60 (Jan 5, 2006)

Detroit is saying Darko Miliscic isn't as "untouchable" as once he was. They're supposedly looking to trade him for anything from a first-round draft choice to two bags of day-old popcorn. Meanwhile, he sits on the bench as he's done for nigh on three years now, maybe getting five minutes a game--while the media, team and fans complain that he's hopeless.

How's he supposed to be anything but hopeless when he never gets a chance to play? Larry Brown wrecked that kid, destroyed him as sure as if he'd crippled him with a tire iron. Refused to teach him the ways of the NBA, refused to play him--refused to let him get involved in the team. And the reputation began to build: Darko's worthless. Never mind he was a rookie and, like all rookies, needed time and attention. Larry Brown thinks newbies are anaethma; he's rather eat his friends and freeze to death in the Andes than play them.

Darko's been screwed, blued and tatooed by the Pistons. They allowed Larry Brown to destroy him, and whether he can ever be fixed at this point is debatable. Taken #2 in the draft--but never taught, never allowed to develop, badmouthed at every turn by people who see only his (lack of) production and don't bother to see WHY he's what he is.

Darko should be on Detroit's neck until the day he retires or dies as a warning to NBA teams: This is what'll happen if you wreck a player the way they've wrecked him. Since that's not going to happen, I hope Darko makes as much noise as it takes--a la Artest and Shaq--to get him outta Detroit and to a team that'll make an effort with him. Maybe he can recover. Maybe the Blazers could be a fresh start for him; Nate McMillan LIVES to teach.

Laurie


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## Redbeard (Sep 11, 2005)

I wouldn't be opposed to giving him a shot, but I wouldn't trade Kryapa for him. If Ruben takes his option, we need to keep Kryapa just for defensive purposes.


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

Wow, endora, cool post. I have no idea if you are right, but good post. :biggrin: If Nash wants to give Nate a shot at teaching Darko something, I'll provide the popcorn.


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## Utherhimo (Feb 20, 2005)

i would like to get darko into town under nate he would turn out better than under Harry OVer hyped Brown.

30th pick in the draft for darko!


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

I seriously would love to see how much Darko improves under Nate. At this point, I would offer Monia, Blake and Detroits 1st for Darko. That may be a very high price to pay for a guy that never gets a chance to play, but I honestly think he can be a good player in this league. Every time I see a Detroit blowout and he gets PT his near perfect looking jumper always makes me second guess the writeoff. The kid came into the NBA a bit cocky, and now has 0 confidence. He simply needs a change of scenery. 

Monia, Blake and Det's pick for Darko, followed by Theo and Patterson for Lee and Penny

1- Telfair-Jack-Dixon
2- Outlaw-Dixon-Webster
3- Miles-Khryapa-Outlaw
4- Zach-Lee-Darko
5- Joel-Darko-Ha

And a top 5 pick in the 1st and 2nd rounds. I can dream...


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## endora60 (Jan 5, 2006)

ThatBlazerGuy said:


> Monia, Blake and Det's pick for Darko, followed by Theo and Patterson for Lee and Penny
> 
> 1- Telfair-Jack-Dixon
> 2- Outlaw-Dixon-Webster
> ...


I'd hate to lose Blake. How about Jack instead? 

Telfair-Blake-Dixon

Laurie


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

endora60 said:


> I'd hate to lose Blake. How about Jack instead?
> 
> Telfair-Blake-Dixon
> 
> Laurie


I'd rather keep Jack. I don't have the impression Blake is going to improve much, and Jack is stronger and better defensively. Although I'm pretty sure Nash won't be asking my opinion. At the moment Jack makes a lot more mistakes than Blake, to be sure, but this is his rookie season and I'm more concerned with the future than the now. 

Speaking of dreaming of Darko becoming a better player under Nate, let's not forget that Maurice Lucas is our big man's coach. Luke will get him on the right page. And Darko could get some real minutes on the Blazers -- that's the only way to really learn anything.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

I think both guys have about equal upside. Blake may look to score more and improve defense. Jack may learn how to run a fast break and develop three point range. 

I'd rather keep Jack, though, only because we have his Bird rights. The last thing you want is to invest in developing one PG over another and then see him gone in two years because he's developed enough to be worth more than we're allowed to pay him. 

Because of the Bird rights issue, I suspect Jack is probably a more valuable player to most teams.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

> You know, I never heard a 20 year old called a "kid" until I came to this country. What is it with you people - retarded development? A 20 year old in football (the real kind) is a veteran. Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney were already stars at 17.


and your point is what? I think any fan who puts unreasonable expectations on young players is a flipping idiot...congratulations on joining that club...



> Besides which, Darko is also a player who has been in the league, what, three years? And it's not like he hasn't been given a chance - every time he's on the floor it's obvious the guy's useless.


That is bs...Yeah at times he has looked lost, other times he looked ok...but the bottom line is it is all in 2min here...5min there of garbage time.....Give him 20-25min a night and see what he is capable of before you write him off...



> That's just it - I think his confidence isn't shaken. From what I can gather, in Darko's world he's a star!


EVERY NBA player believes they are a star...it goes with the job



> Well, I hate to break it to you, but he's certainly stiff-ish. Serviceable, but Dudley-esque. But he at least always knew how to defend. Milicic is completely lost.


So if Darko ends up like a Pryzbilla that is a BAD thing? How do you figure? Other than the obvious "He wasn't worth the 2nd pick" which is DET problem not POR...Pryzbilla BTW is going to get a nice fat paychek this year, and is a solid if unspectacular player....a better offensive\worse defensive rendition of Pryzbilla IMO isn't a bad thing and hardly "stiff" like...



> What's the upper limit on "kid"? Of course, on one level, all basketball players are running around in shorts playing a kid's game.


I have no idea what point you are trying to make here....All I will say is that Steve Nash pretty much sucked his 1st FOUR years into the NBA, and now is the reigning MVP...Players can and do get better...but keep believing the contrary, the NBA is full of players who prove your "theory\opinion" wrong....



> But are you seriously saying that you can't look at a bunch of REAL kids playing basketball and tell which ones get it and which don't? You're always thinking "well, that kid's totally useless - uncoordinated and obviously oblivious to all the other players on his team, but for all I know down the road he's the next Michael Jordan"? I think this is a side-effect of being fed that "This is America, ANYONE can be president" crapola from elementary school on.


Um...yes I am, and I cannot believe your having trouble grasping the concept...OMG...players can get better...Who knew? I never said Darko could be the next MJ, only that he could end up being a good bball player...and at this point he is worth taking a flyer on...

and quit with your elitist european view...if you don't like America...feel free to leave...either way it doesn't belong in this conversation... 



> "Research"? Oh yeah, I wrote my Ph.D. thesis on it.


Like I said before...obviously not...b\c if you did you would know that HISTORY clearly shows that most HS players take an extended period of time to develop AND that they end up (all but 2 to date) being NBA players and most better than those older players selected around them at the time.....

Seriously, you do not know what you are talking about here...look it up...


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

I'm no MJ historian, but I thought he was cut from his high school team?


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

Darko is nothing like Dudley.Have you ever seen him shoot. He has range out to the NBA 3 point line. Confidence is all the kid needs.


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## Utherhimo (Feb 20, 2005)

we need darko!


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

everyone email Nash about acquiring Darko, it'll get on his nerves to the point where he'll have to start getting on the ball. I have already emailed him a few times regarding Darko and how we could give up virtually nothing for him.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

Sambonius said:


> everyone email Nash about acquiring Darko, it'll get on his nerves to the point where he'll have to start getting on the ball. I have already emailed him a few times regarding Darko and how we could give up virtually nothing for him.


I am wondering how getting on Nash's nerves is going to force Detroit to dump Darko for "virtually nothing".

I think if Nash had those kinds of powers we would have a better team. Maybe you should pester Joe Dumars, since he is the one that has to be badgered into the stupid move.

Me, I don't value Darko very highly. I would give them Ruben (who I think could be a nice and worthy - if overpriced - addition to that team) and their pick back (Det 06 1st rounder). There are other variations I would consider, but I woulnd't give up much more in value than this example. Which is to say, if I were GM, Darko wouldn't end up in P-Town. Some other team would beat me out.

Regardless of what has been said here, the overwhelming majority of NBA ballers show SOMETHING their first several years in the league. The chances of Darko having a slow fuse before blowing up are very, very slim.


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## Utherhimo (Feb 20, 2005)

masbee thats why we should be able to get him for cheap 

you just supported why he would be cheap


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

Masbee said:


> Regardless of what has been said here, the overwhelming majority of NBA ballers show SOMETHING their first several years in the league. The chances of Darko having a slow fuse before blowing up are very, very slim.



That's just not accurate, there HAVE been games where Darko showed flashes of brillance. It's a myth to say he hasn't, and you're running with it. 


Oct 16th 05- Darko had 10 points, 5 rebs, and 6 blocks in 21 mins. 

Oct 13th 05- Darko had 10 points on 4 of 5 shooting, 9 rebs, 2 blocks in 18 mins.

April 19th 05- Darko had 16 points on 7 of 11 shooting, 5 rebs, 3 blocks in 30 mins. 


So stop all the the myth talk saying he hasn't shown anything since being in the league, he has and he has shown that when he gets minutes he is able to produce.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Kmurph said:


> and your point is what? I think any fan who puts unreasonable expectations on young players is a flipping idiot...congratulations on joining that club...


And "unreasonable expectations" would be what, exactly? My only expectations would be that he didn't look completely lost and screw up just about every time he got the ball. 



> That is bs...Yeah at times he has looked lost, other times he looked ok...


If you say so. I've just been watching the times he's looked lost. I guess I missed the "looked ok" games.



> but the bottom line is it is all in 2min here...5min there of garbage time.....Give him 20-25min a night and see what he is capable of before you write him off...


He got that in Summer League, against Summer Leaguers. Guess what? He looked lost - only for a more sustained period! The guy's consistent, I'll give him that.



> So if Darko ends up like a Pryzbilla that is a BAD thing? How do you figure? Other than the obvious "He wasn't worth the 2nd pick" which is DET problem not POR...Pryzbilla BTW is going to get a nice fat paychek this year, and is a solid if unspectacular player....a better offensive\worse defensive rendition of Pryzbilla IMO isn't a bad thing and hardly "stiff" like...


Darko won't end up like Przybilla (or even Pryzbilla). Przybilla could always defend, he just fouled too much. Darko isn't being kept out of games because of foul trouble - he's being kept out of games because he can't play.



> I have no idea what point you are trying to make here....All I will say is that Steve Nash pretty much sucked his 1st FOUR years into the NBA, and now is the reigning MVP...


Well, apparently "all you can say" is total bull**** (which shouldn't be surprising to anyone paying attention), but let's do the "research":
For his first two years he was on a Suns team that had BOTH Jason Kidd AND Kevin Johnson. Despite this, he was already averaging 22 minutes per game by his second season. By his third season, he was averaging 31 mpg on the Mavs. It was at this point that it looked like he would always be injury prone, as he only managed 40 games that year. If Darko had managed anything remotely similar to that, then I'd say he still had potential. But both Larry Brown (who has even made something out of Qyntel Woods!) and Flip Saunders have seen fit to consign Darko to garbage time. And from all I've seen of him, it's for damn good reason.



> Players can and do get better...


No **** Sherlock. And guess what? I never denied it. What I denied is that Darko has given us any reason to believe he is or will get appreciably better since he got drafted. Do High Schoolers have a slower learning curve? Of course they do. But it's called a "curve" because it goes up at the end. If anything, he seems to be getting worse. I defy you to find a highschooler (OTHER than Jermaine O'Neal, who is the ONLY example people can think of, and therefore statistically insignificant) who went on to be better than a scrub who had stats like Darko's in his third season. Certainly not "slow learners" like Tracy McGrady.



> Um...yes I am, and I cannot believe your having trouble grasping the concept...OMG...players can get better...Who knew? I never said Darko could be the next MJ, only that he could end up being a good bball player...and at this point he is worth taking a flyer on...


Well, if you really think it's impossible to tell a dud as a young player, then good luck to you. I doubt there are any scouts in the country who would agree, but there you go. (Of course, there are decent players with bad basketball bodies - Scottie Pippen was one before his late growth spurt - but Darko is the opposite - he's got a great basketball body but nothing between his ears.)



> and quit with your elitist european view...if you don't like America...feel free to leave...either way it doesn't belong in this conversation...


Oh I love America. Lovely country. Could stand to lose some of the people, though. Besides, if I left, how would you guys ever learn?

And how do you know I'm European? For your information, I was born in Kenya. (Meru is a place.)



> Like I said before...obviously not...b\c if you did you would know that HISTORY clearly shows that most HS players take an extended period of time to develop AND that they end up (all but 2 to date) being NBA players and most better than those older players selected around them at the time.....


I'd love to know who those two are that you've given up on. Surely they could just be late bloomers?

And here's the thing: all the "high schoolers" that've been taken were among the very best _in America_ at their positions. So the choice is to take a 17-year-old who's ranked top-5 for his age group, or a college kid who's probably top 30 (especially since, if he went to college at all, he wasn't one of those players who could be drafted out of high school). So the risk isn't all that great. But with _foreign_ players, you can't compare them, because there's no such thing as High School sports. It's a much bigger risk. Darko, like Nikoloz Tskitishvili, was just all "potential". (At least Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitzki were actually _playing_ - Milicic and Tskitishvili just were supposed to be good.)



> Seriously, you do not know what you are talking about here...look it up...


You'll have to lend me _KMurph's Big Book of **** I Made Up_.


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## HOWIE (Dec 30, 2002)

Magic Target Darko Milicic

Florida Today - The Orlando Magic have made inquiries into possibly trading for Detroit Pistons reserve power forward Darko Milicic and point guard Carlos Arroyo, but assistant general manager Otis Smith said no deal is imminent. 

The Magic could be offering reserve center Kelvin Cato, who has played just 23 games this season because of ankle, foot and shoulder injuries. The 6-foot-11, 275-pound center hasn't played since Jan. 18 after spraining his ankle. Cato has a cracked bone in his right foot and isn't expected to play until after the All-Star break. 

If healthy, Cato could give the Pistons another center for the playoffs against possible foes Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan and Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

LINK


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

> Darko, like Nikoloz Tskitishvili, was just all "potential". (At least Pau Gasol and Dirk Nowitzki were actually playing - Milicic and Tskitishvili just were supposed to be good.)
> 
> 
> > > What I denied is that Darko has given us any reason to believe he is or will get appreciably better since he got drafted
> ...


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

meru said:


> Oh I love America. Lovely country. Could stand to lose some of the people, though. Besides, if I left, how would you guys ever learn?
> 
> And how do you know I'm European? For your information, I was born in Kenya. (Meru is a place.)


well sin of a botch. I didn't know you were born in Kenya.

Were your parents missionairies? (I ask because you don't have much of a tan... )


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## endora60 (Jan 5, 2006)

HOWIE said:


> The Orlando Magic have made inquiries into possibly trading for Detroit Pistons reserve power forward Darko Milicic


Man, that poor kid's luck just never improves, does it?

At least after a couple years of being abused by MJ and then being hung out to dry, Kwame Brown got the opportunity to go to LA and be coached by Kareem. After a couple years of being wrecked by Larry Brown and then ignored by Flip Saunders, Darko has the opportunity to...ummm...go to Orlando and get nothing.

Laurie


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Kmurph said:


> That is incorrect...Darko WAS playing....It was Tskitishvilli who was drafted based on "practices".....Not only was Darko playing, but he was playing pretty well for a 17-18yr old at that time...What your saying is just flat out untrue...


You're quite right on that one, I stand corrected. He scored 21 points against PAOK - not to be sneezed at.



> and "Since he was drafted"...he has never been given a chance to play, and given DET record during his tenure on the team...his age...the skill
> level and type of players ahead of him...I don't think it it is entirely lack of skill that keeps Milicic on the bench..DET is playing for another NBA title...not grooming\developing young players like POR is...


It's wrong to say he's "never" been given a chance to play - he's played when they've had injuries. But he's never played well enough to get into the rotation. And it's not just because he's young - San Antonio were playing for a title when they started Tony Parker, then a 19-year-old rookie.



> I never said it was impossible to tell a young player was a "dud".....only that your labeling of Darko as one at this point is inaccurate....


Actually you did. You may not have realised it at the time, but that's what you agreed to.



> Does Deshawn Stevenson count? He is averaging 12ppg (46% FG) in his 6th year in the league...


No, because he's still a scrub. The Magic are only playing him because they're crap.



> How about Al Harrington? 18.7ppg 7rpg...His 1st 3 years weren't very impressive...


There's a difference between "not very impressive" and "completely disastrous". Even when Harrington wasn't playing much, Indiana saw enough in him that they wanted to hang on to him. I was surprised they gave him up for Jackson, who, although I don't rate him highly, had at least been a starter on a championship team.



> Is Kendrick Perkins a stiff already? He has started 31 games for BOS this year...


Huh?



> How about Sagana Diop? You know the guy Dallas picked up and playing him 17min a game...including a few (14) starts...


Okay, this is a better example. I thought Diop was a complete bust and that Dallas were nuts to pick him up. If he can keep the weight off, he's a good pickup, because he's a great shot-blocker and decent rebounder. Of course, if he ever averages more than 20 minutes per game on a halfway decent team I'll still be amazed. HOWEVER, I actually commented on how good he was when I saw him play against Detroit earlier this season. In other words, he looks good on the court, even in very limited minutes. Darko does not.



> BTW...three of the players (Stevenson, Harrington, Diop) listed above...inital team's that drafted them gave up on them


Let's hope that Detroit will give up on Darko and free him to blossom elsewhere.



> I would say a 90% success rate (over a 10yr period) is pretty damm good...and that is counting both Smith and Bender..which is debatable IMO as other circumstances affected their careers....


Again, you're ignoring the fact that Darko played in Europe.



> Nash was also 22 yrs old when he entered the league...Darko was 18...True he had Kidd and KJ there.....Darko has to find minutes behind THREE players...namely Sheed, McDyess and Ben Wallace...on an NBA title team as an 18/19yr old...but hey, that should be easy....


McDyess was only added last year. Before that, Darko was being squeezed out by the all-powerful Zelko Rebraca and an ancient Elden Campbell.



> We are also talking about a guy in Nash who IS an MVP player, and all I am saying is that Milicic could be a servicable big man...at worst...with the potential..STILL...to be much better than that....


He's certainly got the body for it. If only he gave the impression he had anything going on upstairs.



> Like I said initially...How in the he!! would you or anyone know until he is given 20-25 minutes like Travis Outlaw has for example, to show what he can or cannot do? He is certainly worth a flyer on IMO...and I don't see how you could possibly write him off as a dud before you get a larger "sample size" of him in an NBA atmosphere....


I refer you to my comment about Summer Leagues.

However, you could be right about Darko. Maybe he'll turn into something. After all, he's a whole month younger than Chris Paul, and only 6 months older than Dwight Howard.


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

I think Portland should try to get Darko if available as backup PF. I think Nate could do a great job with him if anybody could, but when I was at realgm I couldn't find any deals that would work. 

It sure would help if that site would put up their actual salaries rather then salary "ratios", those do nothing at all when trying to match up numbers. :curse:


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## gatorpops (Dec 17, 2004)

meru said:


> However, you could be right about Darko. Maybe he'll turn into something. After all, he's a whole month younger than Chris Paul, and only 6 months older than Dwight Howard.


Interestingly, how this debate (good by the way) between Kmurph and you has come down to this statement. 

I say take a chance if it doesn't cost too much. 

Another person that could have been mentioned in the debate could have been Miles. Never reaching potential. Certainly better athletic ability, but similar in developement. 

Sometimes it takes age and experiences and good mentoring from the right people to develope, no matter what field you are in. It really comes down to does he want to learn and change, if so he can. 

Take a chance. Thats what we are doing with everyone on this team really.

gatoepops


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## HOWIE (Dec 30, 2002)

While I would like to see Portland get another young big, I just don't see it happening......but of the two names that are bouncing around Darko IMO would be a lot easier to pick up than say Frye.

Which one would fit better into what Portland is wanting to do for the future. Both players bring something, but is that something what Portland needs?


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

HOWIE said:


> but is that something what Portland needs?


7 foot post players that have the ability to take shots out in the perimeter, block shots, and are still 20 or 21? No, not at all.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

Just for you Meru...

FWIW....Apparently Nash doesn't think Darko has much of a future either......



> Thanks but that is a real reach. Ha was a second round pick not the second pick in the draft but he has had as much impact as Darko thus far. That's scary


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Kmurph said:


> Just for you Meru...
> 
> FWIW....Apparently Nash doesn't think Darko has much of a future either......


Of course, for some of us that just cements that Darko would be worth taking a chance on. Nash was the guy saying a couple of years ago that he preferred Kenyon Martin to Rasheed Wallace, right? 

Ha is on one of the worst teams in the NBA, and Darko's on one of the best--ever. That Darko isn't able to get more minutes than Ha isn't a big shocker.

And to highlight (in another way) how young Darko still is: he's fewer than 2 months older than Ha. It's WAY too early to write off Darko as a total bust.

Ed O.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

I agree with you Ed....

I only hope Nash does as well....

Kelvin Cato for Darko?

Surely POR cpould offer better than that...

I'd rather take a chance on Darko rather than "Bud" Ely


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