# Toronto overrated?



## dropkickmeltinjohns (Nov 19, 2007)

I sure think so. They got their pg angle covered for sure but when was the last time a true pg won a ring? I mean real pg's the likes of Stockton, Kidd, or Mark Jackson.
And Toronto is doing worse than people thought they would be doing. I think imo that Bosh is also overrated. Hes just a younger Jermaine. a 20/10 guy but can't do much to make his teammates better like KG can. It will come down to him or Bargnani I think. They'll eventually have to trade one of them. Get a better frontcourt tandem. Even trying to trade for Josh Smith would be better for Toronto than keeping Bosh imo.
Especially if they wanna be like Phoenix. Josh Smith can be their Marion while Barg can be their center. I mean the c's killed them the other night. Something is surely missing. They addressed outside shooting, but boy they need defense like nobodys business. I think losing Mo Pete was a bigger deal than ppl think.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

while i do agree, i think it's moreso the surprise effect. Toronto isn't going to jump on and surprise teams like last year. teams are going to play them tougher and they have to respond especially Chris Bosh. Josh Smith would be perfect for Toronto, IMO. he gives them a slasher who can just do so many things for them. Nani needs to be consistent as well or just play well.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

say's a Celtics fan & a New Jersey fan.

btw Toronto is not trying to be like PHX.. our coach does not run like the suns & our GM specifically said he will not build PHX north.. btw we pushed the Celtics to OT our first meeting & destroyed the Nets by 36, 

who overrates toronto? american media? i don't think so.

canadians? after 47 wins and our best team in 10 years, i think we are allowed to be excited as a country, we are still underrated if anything, nobody talks about us even still..

we beat the Rockets with Yao & T-Mac today in Bosh first game back after missing like 5 games.. this thread has poor timing.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

MO PETE!? greatest all time raptor indeed IMO, but i doubt anyone, including the team wishes he were still here.. he did not fit even with our 47 win team last year... we were division champs, we have an X on our back, of course teams are playing us tougher... do you guys realize we were without atleast two of Ford, Bosh & Bargnani (our top 3) for the last two weeks or so? and we are still above .500 after a slow start (which toronto is notorious for)... still, this years start > last years by far.


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## NCR (Nov 28, 2007)

this is a waste of time


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## Onions Baby (Mar 12, 2007)

Lmao @ topic starter mentioning the Celtics game. No **** something was wrong you idiot, Bosh & Bargs WEREN'T playing.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

SI said they'd be ninth, yet they're in fourth. Seems like they're underrated if anything.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

dropkickmeltinjohns said:


> I sure think so. They got their pg angle covered for sure but *when was the last time a true pg won a ring? I mean real pg's the likes of Stockton, Kidd, or Mark Jackson.*
> And Toronto is doing worse than people thought they would be doing. I think imo that Bosh is also overrated. Hes just a younger Jermaine. a 20/10 guy but can't do much to make his teammates better like KG can. It will come down to him or Bargnani I think. They'll eventually have to trade one of them. Get a better frontcourt tandem. Even trying to trade for Josh Smith would be better for Toronto than keeping Bosh imo.
> Especially if they wanna be like Phoenix. Josh Smith can be their Marion while Barg can be their center. I mean the c's killed them the other night. Something is surely missing. They addressed outside shooting, but boy they need defense like nobodys business. I think losing Mo Pete was a bigger deal than ppl think.


Chauncey Billups? Tony Parker?

I guess you mean pass first guards, but really how many "true points" are there in this league? The blurring between pure points and hybrid/tweeners is too hard to distinguish imo to even make this argument.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Magic Johnson lol? Isiah Thomas? And it's not like the Raptors that's out there is the finish product. 2 years ago we finished near the bottom of the league and won the lottery. Things just don't happen that fast even if you draft Lebron james.

If you look at the Raptors's record, 11-10 does do justice to how the team has been playing. If you look at our schedule, we beat most of the teams that we were suppose to be "better than" and lost to the ones that were better than us.

Very rare when people over-rate us. Media-wise before the season most people predicted around mid-40 wins which is about right. And fan wise most people here thought we would finish as a 4th-5th seed, which is likely to happen also.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Who is overrating the Raptors? From the media to basketball analysts they still recognize the Raptors as defending Altantic Division Champions but at thte same time everyone (and I mean EVERYONE from Raptor fans to anti-Raptor fans) knows that the Atlantic will belong to the Celtics before the 2007-2008 tip off began.

And who here has been clamouring for the Raptors to be any sort of threat for the Eastern Conference Crown? I have not heard one peep (outside of the opinions of the blatant homers whom I choose not to take their opinion(s) seriously) that the Raptors are one of the 'elite' in the Eastern Conference ('Elite' meaning top 3). From day one the Raptors are a *rebuilding* team on the rise and they are still just that, a *rebuilding* team on the rise. 

The Raptors' current record of 11-10 even indicates just how inconsistent this team is this year. We play like a .500+ team one night, then completely stoop down to a .500- the next night. This has been going on since the first game and it doesn't look like it'll change anytime soon.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

one thing i do agree on is, that we will probably end up having to trade either Bosh or Bargnani.

i have a feeling it will be Bosh. but that will be in a few years when Bargnani proves he can be a franchise player.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

i think in a few years when bargnani proves he can play, he will be playing right along side bosh.....


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

well, my point is..

do you see either being a centre, long term? guarding the yaos, the dwights, the odens of the league night in night out? i certainly dont.

both are going to play to their full potential at the power forward spot..


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

the best part is 'not like KG who makes his teammates better'...ya, the wolves were awesome. seems like pierce and ray-ray are making him better.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

its not like anyones really making anyone THAT much better

there all legit 1st options, and big stars..

you put bosh with pp, and allen and tell me they dont have the same amount of success, cause they would..

not saying bosh is better than kg because he's not.. but i wouldnt say bosh doesnt make others around him better... he does just by being on the floor and bringing the presence of an elite big man scorer.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

The Raps are just getting warmed up. If I were another Eastern conference team, I wouldn't want to play them in the playoffs this year.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

definitely not overrated. they are one of the least respected teams in the league despite being defending champs. now the chances of repeating with the C's being as good as they are, are slim, but that doesn't change the fact this is a good ballclub. most fans are calling this team overrated but how so? they are a good team and they _deserve_ the reputation of a good team because they've earned it.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

bigbabyjesus said:


> well, my point is..
> 
> do you see either being a centre, long term? guarding the yaos, the dwights, the odens of the league night in night out? i certainly dont.
> 
> both are going to play to their full potential at the power forward spot..


And the who else's? You named three guys who will probably be the best centers for years to come. You think Oden will enjoy defending Bargnani way out at the three point line where the slightest hesitation in keeping up with your opponent is amplified?

We still don't know what we have in Bargnani, at least I hope we don't. We've got wait a while before even thinking about trades. We have a young core, something that Jersey and Boston do not. We can add pieces, look for opportunities to strike on the trade market and grow from within for a few years. Let's not rush out and make a Ben Wallace signing because we think we need someone tough in the middle.


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

It's a recession year for Bargnani, a sophomore slump, which happens often. I mean, who were we kidding? Bargnani is still young and is still a project. People keep jumping the gun and talk about Dirk, well Dirk took a few years to develop. The same can be said for Bargnani. He has alot of talent and has a mind for the game, he's just hitting a wall or sorts. It takes a few years for big men to develop, look at Yao, Howard, Dirk and even Bosh. Not to say that Bargnani is on the same level, no one can knows for sure, but we can be sure that it's going to take him 2-3 years to get ready.
Same can be said for the Raptors, they're still a rebuilding franchise. You have to remember, last year turned out alot better than expected. This team isn't ready to win it all now. What it is is a good team that can compete and beat the inferior teams and on most night, battle against the top tier teams. However the team still has to develop and complete its identity.
They're playing .500 ball and I wasn't expecting anything more or less.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

Overrated? by who?

like many here mentioned many of the top "experts" have us finishing 8-9 in the east, so maybe it's Raptors fans you think are overrating this team? *not really sure who exactly you are referring to*

I personally predicted the Raps will finish the season around .500, give or take a game or two.....make it to the playoffs and be ousted in the first round.

So far we are about a .500 team at 11-10, well on their way to my living out my predictions.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

They were overrated by their fans, not the media


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

^ thanks for generalizing and making "Raptor fans" one single thinking entity.

Sure, maybe some of our more younger, wide eyed optimists figured we'd be finals bound, but 90% of the posters on this board are realistic about this team and it's chances.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

The search function still works you know


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

HB said:


> The search function still works you know


That works both ways. Some "Nets fans" had some pretty big predications for their team. At least the Raps have somewhat lived up to theirs.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

Go right ahead and check it out, I was thinking of linking you to this thread "Toronto Raptors:elite team" where just about every regular Raptor poster came on and shot it down, saying basically we are on our way, showing glipses here and there but far from being an elite team.

and like another poster mentioned....the team is in 4th in the east, where many predicted us to barely make the 8th spot....so aren't we actually underrated???

honestly with all the injuries and new players in the rotation, I think being 11-10 is a blessing and might even be overachieving.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

In the name of peace I wont try to take this farther than it need be. But do realize that the Nets also had a lot of pundits writing them off this season also. Some didnt even think they would make the playoffs. And yes I agree they have underachieved badly


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

HB said:


> In the name of peace I wont try to take this farther than it need be. But do realize that the Nets also had a lot of pundits writing them off this season also. Some didnt even think they would make the playoffs. And yes I agree they have underachieved badly


That's cool. When want to talk about how fairly rated the Nets are, we'll let you know.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Remember most of you said you have the best point guard duo in the league and also the most depth of any team in the league. I would think an 11-10 record is underachieving with such weapons on one team.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

HB said:


> Remember most of you said you have the best point guard duo in the league and also the most depth of any team in the league. I would think an 11-10 record is underachieving with such weapons on one team.


The depth has been fine. It's losing Bosh, Bargs, TJ and Jorge that have hurt the team. We're talking four potential starters there. Are you really going to say any team, even a deep one is underachieving under such circumstances? We're are talking about the fourth place team in the conference here. It isn't as if Toronto is pulling a Chicago or Miami, so I'm not sure what your point is.


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## Onions Baby (Mar 12, 2007)

shookem said:


> SI said they'd be ninth, yet they're in fourth. Seems like they're underrated if anything.


SI had us 8th, the Nets were 9th.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Onions said:


> SI had us 8th, the Nets were 9th.


I thought it was flipped. Thx.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> Remember most of you said you have the best point guard duo in the league and also the most depth of any team in the league. I would think an 11-10 record is underachieving with such weapons on one team.


The Raptors still have a good chance to win 50 games this year, which was what a lot of us predicted in the beginning of the season.

Nobody really expected Bosh to have as slow a start as he did, not just Raptor fans as indicated by the various posts on the main forums. His stats are up after a couple monster games, but not long ago he was having single digit scoring stinkers game after game. Once Bosh gets back to form, the Raptors will win more games. If they are at .500 now, one would think that 8-9 games above .500 isn't that unlikely.

I'll admit that I underrated the Celtics. I thought that they would only be a 50 win team and it would've been possible for the Raptors to contend with them for the division title. But I have to say I never thought they would start the season 17-2 or whatever their record is right now. But again, that's still under the basis that the Raptors win 50 games, so it's not really over-rating the team for a lot of us.

Point guard wise we do have the best PG duo in the league. I have a hard time naming another PG duo that is better than Ford/Calderon, I really don't see what's wrong with that statement. You might have a combination where one of the guards is an all-star that plays majority of the minutes, but if you use per-48 stats, you're not going to find a team that has 2 per-48 monsters like Ford and Calderon. I remember reading in a thread in the main forum, the 2 of them has something like 30+ pts 20+ assists a game combined. As for our depth, our bench is rated #3 by hoopsstats.com which rates the benches in difference in efficiency. If we use more conventional stats, we are ranked #3 in pts and 2nd in assists just after teams like San Antonio and Dallas who have players like Ginobili and Terry coming off the bench for them.

If you used statements like "Bargnani will have a monster year", or "Bosh will have a MVP type season" to make an argument on how the fans over rate our team it might be a bit more valid, but picking things that we said that have held true really doesn't show how we overrate our teams.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Well I was going to go into the whole Barganini best offensive big man, or Bosh being an MVP candidate type talk, or having the best shooter in the league type threads but like I said dont want to get into a war of words.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Meanwhile, I do remember several Nets fans *jizzying* over Magloire when the Nets signed him claiming that he would average close to a double double with Kidd. 2.4 points a game later I don't hear anybody talking about him. After the preseason I remember in another thread people were arguing with me about how Antoine Wright is a good player. Well, the guy is averaging under 10 points in 32 minutes a game shooting 42%. Unless he plays like Bruce Bowen, whether or not he stays in the league next year is questionable.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> Well I was going to go into the whole Barganini best offensive big man, or Bosh being an MVP candidate type talk, or having the best shooter in the league type threads but like I said dont want to get into a war of words.


So you just decided to post things that don't make sense instead? okay...

Oh wait, could it be *baiting*....hmmm....lol I'm just joking you big moderator.

And as for Bosh being MVP and Bargnani being the best center, if you look into those threads, the majority of the Rap fans actually were against it. There are far more fans that believe in our depth and PG combo than guys believing that Bosh is a MVP. The numbers are about as far apart as Kidd's market value and the type of deals that Nets fans want for him.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

HB said:


> Well I was going to go into the whole Barganini best offensive big man, or Bosh being an MVP candidate type talk, or having the best shooter in the league type threads but like I said dont want to get into a war of words.


go read those posts, hardly no one agreed with the original poster, i find it a stretch to even say toronto fans overrated this team... we are still building, we have lost alot of close games, our record doesnt show the ups & downs, the new players that have had to gel or the injuries we have had already.

Bosh has stepped up his defense this year, but his offense has digressed alittle with the focus he places on the other end of the court, not just toronto was throwing around MVP talk last year, kobe said it, numerous coaches said it about CB... not saying i buy into the talk, most of us here are level headed & know this time in the season is not the proper place for such talk... tho i do feel Kapono is still one of the best shooters in the league, you can't argue with the numbers... or can you?


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Just like the playoffs last year.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

seifer0406 said:


> Meanwhile, I do remember several Nets fans *jizzying* over Magloire when the Nets signed him claiming that he would average close to a double double with Kidd. 2.4 points a game later I don't hear anybody talking about him. After the preseason I remember in another thread people were arguing with me about how Antoine Wright is a good player. Well, the guy is averaging under 10 points in 32 minutes a game shooting 42%. Unless he plays like Bruce Bowen, whether or not he stays in the league next year is questionable.



we get it, nets suck. tell us something we don't know. that card doesn't apply here.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jizzy said:


> we get it, nets suck. tell us something we don't know. that card doesn't apply here.


I wasn't saying the Nets suck, I was saying your fans vastly overrates your team, which is still going on right now with the Kidd trade proposals.



Jizzy said:


> Just like the playoffs last year.


This is the millionth time you used this card, kudos for living in the past. But have fun using it, this and "Bosh is soft" are like the only 2 things you have to say about this team these days, which is an improvement.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> *So you just decided to post things that don't make sense instead?* okay...
> 
> Oh wait, could it be *baiting*....hmmm....lol I'm just joking you big moderator.
> 
> And as for Bosh being MVP and Bargnani being the best center, if you look into those threads, the majority of the Rap fans actually were against it. There are far more fans that believe in our depth and PG combo than guys believing that Bosh is a MVP. The numbers are about as far apart as Kidd's market value and the type of deals that Nets fans want for him.


Those were actual threads on this site, and southeasy's posts basically confirms that

Regarding Kidd, well management must agree with the fans to some extent considering he is still on the roster.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> Those were actual threads on this site, and southeasy's posts basically confirms that


That's not what I meant, I would tell you something that I've told you many times before in this situation, but I'll pass.

You didn't actually *use* those threads, you used 2 facts which were "The Raptors have the best PG duo" and "Raptors have one of the deepest roster in the league" to somehow show that we overrate our team, which made no sense. So instead of using things that actually had some remote connection to how we overrate our team, eventhough in those threads most of our opinions were opposite of the OP, you decided to use points that didn't support your argument at all, which made it pointless.



HB said:


> Regarding Kidd, well management must agree with the fans to some extent considering he is still on the roster.


It's a bit early to say that, let's wait until the trade deadline. The Kidd drama is only like what, a week old? Even then, it might be that the Nets management vastly overrates their players as well. We've seen teams like the Bulls do that with their players along with plenty of other teams.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

as i said in another thread, it's likely one of two things, neither of which really comforts me:

1) this team is overrated. if true, they will never compete for a title like they claim to expect.

2) this team is injury-prone. not much better than 1). who really cares if you can play well when you're healthy if you're never healthy?

the third possibility is unlikely (naive to believe?) but deserves to be mentioned: they are not overrated and these injuries will go away.

it's one thing to be paranoid, it's another to call a spade a spade. long-term perspective is more important than this short-term turbulence. but if the latter foresees the former, we might have a problem.

peace


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

we & no one including BC _expect_ toronto to compete for a title this, last & next year... the plan has still yet to unfold, there is not a way you can tell me we are overrated.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

We will make the playoffs, we will be a tough match-up for whatever team we play, and we will be a better team next year. All of our key players are still young and improving, only Rasho is in the downside of his career. 

We are a good team with the potential to be one of the top 5 in the league in future years. One or two small tweaks and the continued improvement of Hump, Carlos, and the like, and we are sitting pretty. Overrated? I think not!


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Jizzy said:


> Just like the playoffs last year.


only, the nets wont be there?

i love how the nets fans come here to chirp.. when there team is awful and has NO future whatsoever haha


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

bigbabyjesus said:


> only, the nets wont be there?
> 
> i love how the nets fans come here to chirp.. when there team is awful and has NO future whatsoever haha


Thats my boy! :greatjob:


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

HB said:


> Thats my boy! :greatjob:


i only speak the truth, faja


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

good job showing the clippers who's the boss today. Another triple double by Kidd, I feel sorry for that guy.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Lol I am not even talking about the Nets. That experiment is over, time to blow up the team. Although I do recall you guys loosing by 30 something points two or so games ago


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

You mean that last time we went to New Jersey?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Umm didnt Boston beat you guys recently by 30 plus points


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

and they are comparable to the Clippers?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Did you pay attention to the post where I said the Nets experiment is over, that team needs to be blown up. I dont know why you think this is a Nets vs Raptors thing.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

oh no, I'm not even comparing them. I'm just making fun of your team. Join in if you find them as pathetic as I do.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Lol you dont even have to try

The team itself is doing that everytime they step on the court


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

it's not hard to lose to the best team in the league (celtics) with 3 hall of famers when you are missing bosh & bargnani (your two best bigs)

we also pushed celtics to OT at the beginning of the season, only lost on a OT 3, after coming all the way back against 3 all-stars after one of our weakest games this year.

bottomline:
*Toronto = Underrated.*
_Still_


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

my gawd stop bickering over the most idiotic stuff. 

i hate seeing this board cluttered with complete and utter trash. go to their board or or the main nba forum, but please let's keep this board civil and with posts of actual value.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

bigbabyjesus said:


> only, the nets wont be there?
> 
> i love how the nets fans come here to chirp.. when there team is awful and has NO future whatsoever haha


talking about the nets in a Raptors thread yet you are the same guys that cry and whine about Nets fans always bringing the nets in here.

Canadians..


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

southeasy said:


> it's not hard to lose to the best team in the league (celtics) with 3 hall of famers when you are missing bosh & bargnani (your two best bigs)
> 
> we also pushed celtics to OT at the beginning of the season, only lost on a OT 3, after coming all the way back against 3 all-stars after one of our weakest games this year.
> 
> ...


why are they underrated?


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

seifer0406 said:


> oh no, I'm not even comparing them. I'm just making fun of your team. Join in if you find them as pathetic as I do.


are you illiterate? WE KNOW THE NETS SUCK!!!! WHY DO YOU KEEP BRINGING THEM UP IN A THREAD ABOUT THE RAPTORS?

Raptors suck as well, BTW. it's not like your team is cruising through the season so we have the right to talk. to funny, hopefully you guys get disappointed like last year, made for some CLASSIC posts.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

I miss Speedythief, he would of closed this thread long before the predictable deteriation into the typical mud-slinging between Nets and Raps fans that we are all very used to.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

seifer0406 said:


> good job showing the clippers who's the boss today. Another triple double by Kidd, I feel sorry for that guy.


I feel sorry for you. you saw how sad it was watching TJ Ford go down, I hate the Raps but that was so sad to watch and you're the same guy who wants Vince Carter to break his knees. hopefuly know you see how you shouldnt say dumb **** out of anger, huh


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Jizzy said:


> I feel sorry for you. you saw how sad it was watching TJ Ford go down, I hate the Raps but that was so sad to watch and you're the same guy who wants Vince Carter to break his knees. hopefuly know you see how you shouldnt say dumb **** out of anger, huh


He may say dumb Sh!t out of anger, but what is your excuse for all the dumb sH!t you say all the time?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jizzy said:


> I feel sorry for you. you saw how sad it was watching TJ Ford go down, I hate the Raps but that was so sad to watch and you're the same guy who wants Vince Carter to break his knees. hopefuly know you see how you shouldnt say dumb **** out of anger, huh


so now it's breaking his knees? Didn't you say I want him to be in a body bag or something, I can't remember because it just keeps changing everytime you refer to it. lol, you Nets fans are hilarious.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by *billfindlay10 !*
> 
> He may say dumb Sh!t out of anger, but what is your excuse for all the dumb sH!t you say all the time?


:rofl: HaHa

*Jizzy crawls back under the hole from which he came*


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

TRON said:


> I miss Speedythief, he would of closed this thread long before the predictable deteriation into the typical mud-slinging between Nets and Raps fans that we are all very used to.


A little late but when I checked yesterday the thread had some promise.


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