# CONFIRMED: LeBron James to Heat



## Dre

> The National Basketball Association star LeBron James has announced that he's joining fellow free agent stars Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh at the Miami Heat.
> 
> The reigning and two-time NBA Most Valuable Player ended weeks of silence and drama with his announcement on an ESPN television special.
> 
> James leaves the Cleveland Cavaliers after an unsuccessful seven-year quest for the NBA championship.


http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/sport/2010/07/09/12480f9f979f


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## Diable

*Re: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*

Can't say that Reinsdorf lacks balls...wait this is arrogance isn't it?


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## Ron

*Re: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*

No, no, no, no, no...

Hoopsworld is a terrible source. Give this source its due...which is one breath from your body.


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## Ron

*Re: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*



Dre™ said:


> This **** doesn't make sense because they're the ones who agreed to meet Lebron on Saturday. How are you gonna agree to his timetable then get mad in the middle of it?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=16647


Exactly.

That is why hoopsworld is a terrible source.


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## Game3525

*Re: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*



Ron said:


> No, no, no, no, no...
> 
> Hoopsworld is a terrible source. Give this source its due...which is one breath from your body.


Yeah, but you can honestly see the Bulls brass pulling this sort of crap.


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## GNG

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*

Poopsworld.


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## Dre

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*

That sounds stupid to me. (c) Jigga 

If we agree to meet on Saturday, why are you trying to rush a decision on Friday? Especially if you haven't even talked?


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## Ron

*Re: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*



Game3525 said:


> Yeah, but you can honestly see the Bulls brass pulling this sort of crap.


Not even they are that stupid...their meeting with James is TOMORROW...not yesterday, lol.


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## Dre

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*

I will say if there's a shred of proof to this it means they probably think they can get Wade and Bosh tonight.


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## Ron

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*



Dre™ said:


> I will say if there's a shred of proof to this it means they probably think they can get Wade and Bosh tonight.


A sliver of a shred, I will grant you that. But I think Wade is just goofing around before he signs with Miami and I think Bosh is just goofing around before he signs with...anybody.

Bosh is the one who is enjoying all the attention more than anyone.


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## Luke

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*

Poopsworld sucks. I guarentee they did no such thing, it would be retarted.


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## Dre

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*

I don't know I saw in the Bulls forum where Wade is meeting the Bulls again tonight..with his agent...he's looking at Riley whiff on everybody and he's saying he might as well bring Bosh up here with Rose, Deng and Noah.


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## Ron

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*



Dre™;6310522 said:


> I don't know I saw in the Bulls forum where Wade is meeting the Bulls again tonight..with his agent...he's looking at Riley whiff on everybody and he's saying he might as well bring Bosh up here with Rose, Deng and Noah.


Very interesting.

Maybe his dinner with Bosh last night was to recruit him to Chicago rather than Miami. :laugh:

Wade did say his meeting with the Knicks was "intriguing."


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## Luke

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*

I'd like to see Rose get a really good team around him, but Wade plus Bosh is starting to enter "knocking off the Lakers" territory. Hopefully they don't get all of that talent.


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## Dre

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*

Yeah said he was in a New York state of mind.

I think all the talk about Wade basically being Mr. Miami *was* well founded until he sees like no progress Riley's made with anyone. 

Bosh made an interesting tweet too...he said he was having dinner with Wade but it "felt like someone was missing" :whistling:


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## Dre

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*



VanillaPrice said:


> I'd like to see Rose get a really good team around him, but Wade plus Bosh is starting to enter "knocking off the Lakers" territory. Hopefully they don't get all of that talent.


See I have no doubt about Wade and Rose and Lebron...but Wade and Rose together? Eh...


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## Luke

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*



Dre™ said:


> See I have no doubt about Wade and Rose and Lebron...but Wade and Rose together? Eh...


I don't think that they're a prefect match for eachother, far from it actually. But, I do know that it would be bar none the best backcourt in the NBA with Noah and Bosh in the frontcourt. Maybe not enough size to take us out, but enough talent to worry me.


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## Ron

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*



VanillaPrice said:


> I'd like to see Rose get a really good team around him, but Wade plus Bosh is starting to enter "knocking off the Lakers" territory. Hopefully they don't get all of that talent.


It would be absolutely AWESOME to see Phil and the Lakers go up against Chicago in the Finals next year...think of all the subplots...LOL :lol:


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## Game3525

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*



VanillaPrice said:


> I'd like to see Rose get a really good team around him, but Wade plus Bosh is starting to enter *"knocking off the Lakers" territory.* Hopefully they don't get all of that talent.


Did Gasol and Bynum suddenly shrink lol.


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## Luke

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*



Ron said:


> It would be absolutely AWESOME to see Phil and the Lakers go up against Chicago in the Finals next year...think of all the subplots...LOL :lol:


It would be pretty cool, as long as the Lakers knock them out :baseldance:


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## Dre

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*



Game3525 said:


> Did Gasol and Bynum suddenly shrink lol.


Noah, Bosh and Gibson can bang with those 2.

They might be able to snatch up Shaq too at a decent price.


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## Game3525

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*



Dre™ said:


> *Noah, Bosh and Gibson can bang with those 2.*
> 
> They might be able to snatch up Shaq too at a decent price.


No, they can't. 

None of those guys are physical, and you need some someone down low who can push Bynum and Gasol around.


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## Luke

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*



Game3525 said:


> Did Gasol and Bynum suddenly shrink lol.


No, but Wade is the only player in the leauge that can match and even outplay Kobe on a semi consistant basis and Rose could/would burn the Lakers moreso then any player we've seen do so in recent years. Also keep in mind that Bosh is just a slightly worse version of Gasol and Noah isn't going to back down from any of our bigs. I'm not saying that the Lakers wouldn't still be the favorites, but Chicago would theoretically have enough talent to give us a run for our money.


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## Dre

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*



Game3525 said:


> No, they can't.
> 
> None of those guys are physical, and you need some someone down low who can push Bynum and Gasol around.


Noah is scrappy, Gibson is going to go after it...Bosh is soft yeah but he might have a Gasol like epiphany once he finally gets to the Finals.

That's not as weak a big man rotation as people would think, especially considering Rose and Wade will take turns carving up Fisher, Sasha, and wearing Kobe out on the wing.


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## Dre

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*



> For those keeping track at home, there's a change in LeBron James' schedule Saturday: He'll meet with the Cavs first, followed by the Bulls -- a flip-flop of the original schedule. Why? Well, there are indications that the Bulls, in a pre-emptive strike to force the free-agent dominoes to start tumbling, have told James they want a decision on whether he'll accept their offer by the end of the day Saturday. It's not known if that is the only reason for the change of plans, but it seems to be a sensible explanation.


http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/22947913?source=rss_blogs_NBA


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## Game3525

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*



Dre™ said:


> Noah is scrappy, Gibson is going to go after it...Bosh is soft yeah but he might have a Gasol like epiphany once he finally gets to the Finals.
> 
> That's not as weak a big man rotation as people would think, especially considering Rose and Wade will take turns carving up Fisher, Sasha, and wearing Kobe out on the wing.


It is not a bad frontcourt, but it really doesn't pose matchup problems for LA and their bigs would have their way with them.


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## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by tommorow*

Man, I feel for LBJ being jerked around by the big bad Bulls. He ever so desperately wants to play for them......

Seriously? This is the time you play hardball with the greatest athlete in the league? You only play tough with him when you have nothing to lose. In this situation they're going to look like total *******s and I hope Rose leaves them for being stupid.


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## Ron

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by tommorow*



Hyperion said:


> Man, I feel for LBJ being jerked around by the big bad Bulls. He ever so desperately wants to play for them......
> 
> Seriously? This is the time you play hardball with the greatest athlete in the league? You only play tough with him when you have nothing to lose. In this situation they're going to look like total *******s and I hope Rose leaves them for being stupid.


If this report is indeed true, they are out of their ****ing minds.

They would be at risk of alienating their shot at James.

I just can't see this at all. Not even Reinsdorf is that stupid.

Jesus.


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## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by tommorow*



> LeBron James and Dwyane Wade are discussing joining the same team, most likely in Chicago or Miami.
> 
> But if the two perennial MVP candidates are unable to reach an agreement, sources believe they are most likely to remain with their current teams.


Twists and turns...turns and twists...

http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archi...likely_will_stay_put_if_deal_cant_be_reached/


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## Rather Unique

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by tommorow*

Is there really enough ball to go around for a Rose/Wade/Bron backcourt?...jesus christ.


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## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by tommorow*

Yeah that's pretty ridiculous unless Lebron is just going to completely turn into a billionaire's Shawn Marion or something.


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## Ron

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by tommorow*



Rather Unique said:


> Is there really enough ball to go around for a Rose/Wade/Bron backcourt?...jesus christ.


No, there isn't.


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## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*

LeBron is like a bigger and better version of Wade. Wade is a bigger and better version of Rose. They're all the same player. That's a ton of freaking talent, but I'm not sure how it would mesh. Some of these teams need to be smarter with constructing a team and stop chasing names. You can get away with two of those three together *if* you stick a shooter in the backcourt with them. Otherwise, teams will pack it in the paint and they won't be able to make them pay for it.


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## HB

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*

Rose and Wade dont work well together, but they should think of trading Rose, guy will net them a valuable piece to play with Wade. Getting Wade is a major coup.


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## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*

FOH. Don't play like that. Rose isn't going anywhere. Rose is what age compared to Wade?


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## Rather Unique

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*



Dre™ said:


> FOH. Don't play like that. Rose isn't going anywhere. Rose is what age compared to Wade?


I shouldn't justify this with answer, cause most def. it's a rhetorical/sarcastic question...but **** it 21 and 28, respectively.. 

Is there enough ball to go around though, Dre? honestly..

(talent out the ass, no one is disputing that)


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## HB

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*

You dont have to be a genius when watching both players that they are somewhat similar, with Wade being the more prolific scorer. One ball.


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## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*

They're not compromising Rose's position by bringing in both of them, that's my point.


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## Diable

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*

If you have Wade and Lebron on the wings you'd need yourself a Steve Nash or Chris Paul type passer. Ideally you'd just have both of those guys finishing and the point guard only making the decision on which one got the ball. That's far from Rose's strength. Rose would become totally redundant, at least as a starter. He's not better at anything than either of those guys. Obviously he's too good a player to be given a completely supporting role


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## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*

They're not compromising Rose's position by bringing in both of them.


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## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*



Dre™ said:


> They're not compromising Rose's position by bringing in both of them, that's my point.





Dre™ said:


> They're not compromising Rose's position by bringing in both of them.


Yeah, but what are they going to do with Rose?


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## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*

Not bring Wade *and* Lebron in to compromise his position.


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## Ron

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*

LOL, love the back and forth.

This has been the most awesome free agent signing period in history, entertaining as hell! And we are only two days into it.


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## bballlife

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*

An opportunity to have two of the three best players in the league would take precedence over just about anything. Rose would adapt.


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## Rather Unique

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*



Dre™ said:


> Not bring Wade *and* Lebron in to compromise his position.


C'mon Dre, that's why everybody is talking about the whole "one ball" thing. 

You can work with 2..now 3 ball-dominators, seems like a stretch. You'd have to run some crazy **** like Calipari's dribble-drive offense with that. :laugh:


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## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*

I'm trying to understand what's so hard about "Wade and Lebron won't *both* be brought in because Rose is entrenched as the PG of the future."


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## BG7

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*

Rose actually wouldn't be a terrible fit with Lebron/Wade. Rose is the best midrange shooting point guard in the league. I know Rose is working to extend to three point range for next year too, so maybe he will be decent there, in addition to being absolutely killer from midrange. If Wade/Lebron draw attention opening Rose up for the midrange jumper, other teams are finished.


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## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*

"Rose..best..and shooter" doesn't belong in the same thread.


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## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*



Dre™ said:


> I'm trying to understand what's so hard about "Wade and Lebron won't *both* be brought in because Rose is entrenched as the PG of the future."


I think the part about having Wade and James on your team at the same time in their peaks is kinda worth alienating your point guard. (of the future)


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## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*

I don't. Not 28 vs. 21.

It's easy for fans to make snap decisions with no perception of sentiment and commitment and loyalty..but I'm pretty confident it's not going to happen to Rose.


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## Rather Unique

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*

If you trying to say that the Bulls won't be able to sign both Wade AND Lebron...then that's one thing, Dre. I don't necessarily believe that either... but we're just commenting on IF they did how/if they could co-exist.. clear it up any?


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## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*

Never said they're not capable of signing the two. But I said they won't because the Bulls front office aren't idiots, I don't believe. 

And _if_? How they would co-exist?

All 3 just want to win, so I think Lebron would get used to staying largely off the ball, Wade would stay who he is, Rose would take the biggest hit because he'd be relegated to a distributor.

They could definitely work it out, but Rose's value would be dropped at least a tier. It's just not worth it compared to Bosh, Lebron/Wade and Rose.


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## HB

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*

Doubt Bron would go to Chicago to play with Wade and Rose.


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## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*



Dre™;6311138 said:


> I don't. Not 28 vs. 21.
> 
> It's easy for fans to make snap decisions with no perception of sentiment and commitment and loyalty..but I'm pretty confident it's not going to happen to Rose.


I'd trade Nash and Grant Hill for Chris Paul and feel my soul leave my body for a championship in Phoenix.

EDIT: If you're looking for loyalty, the Bulls aren't exactly the best team to be using as an example of that or need I remind you why Jordan retired in 1998?


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## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*

Because Chris Paul is like...almost 10 years younger than Nash. 

Makes sense. This doesn't. Pretty much period.


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## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*



Dre™ said:


> Because Chris Paul is like...almost 10 years younger than Nash.
> 
> Makes sense. This doesn't. Pretty much period.


Yeah..... let's pass up the opportunity to have two of the best players in the NBA on the same team because Rose MAY develop into their a player of that caliber. Oh wait... he's under contract until 2012. Anyways, isn't that a good problem to have?


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## E.H. Munro

*Re: Probably False: Bulls threatening to pull Lebron offer?*



VanillaPrice said:


> I..but Wade plus Bosh is starting to enter "knocking off the Lakers" territory.


Starting? That's more like "plundering the NBA's gloryhole for the next four years" territory.


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## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*



Hyperion said:


> Yeah..... let's pass up the opportunity to have two of the best players in the NBA on the same team because Rose MAY develop into their a player of that caliber. Oh wait... he's under contract until 2012. Anyways, isn't that a good problem to have?


Not when that team will be under the biggest microscope ever to win now. If that team fails everyone takes a hit and everyone in the front office loses their job.

It makes more sense for the Bulls to go for a post player to balance out the roster than just have two of the best players in the league to say they have two of the best players in the league (who are largely redundant).


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## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*



Chris Broussard said:


> Strong sources tell me Chicago Bulls have definitely not given LeBron an ultimatum that he must give them an answer tomorrow. Twitter


...


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## bballlife

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*



Dre™;6311142 said:


> Never said they're not capable of signing the two. But I said they won't because the Bulls front office aren't idiots, I don't believe.
> 
> And _if_? How they would co-exist?
> 
> All 3 just want to win, so I think Lebron would get used to staying largely off the ball, Wade would stay who he is, Rose would take the biggest hit because he'd be relegated to a distributor.
> 
> They could definitely work it out, but Rose's value would be dropped at least a tier. It's just not worth it compared to Bosh, Lebron/Wade and Rose.


They would have to be idiots to turn down the chance of landing Wade and LeBron. There is absolutely nothing to consider when you can bring in two players of that caliber. You worry about everything else later. Rose could always be moved for a big and/or point that can shoot the three. 

Now, if the dilemma is signing Wade and LeBron OR Wade/LeBron and Bosh, then one of them with Bosh is probably the better fit. But, you can still make a good case for the LeBron/Wade combo because of all the potential positives. They would be the best transition team in the NBA, have the best perimeter defense in the league, and get to the line at a very high rate.


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## Ron

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*



> Originally Posted by Chris Broussard
> Strong sources tell me Chicago Bulls have definitely not given LeBron an ultimatum that he must give them an answer tomorrow. Twitter


Duh.

It would have been the bonehead move of the year, maybe the decade, if it had been true. Which I never believed it was.

If you want to sign someone, you are going to threaten him with a deadline? When he has so many other suitors?


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## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*



bballlife said:


> They would have to be idiots to turn down the chance of landing Wade and LeBron. There is absolutely nothing to consider when you can bring in two players of that caliber. You worry about everything else later. Rose could always be moved for a big and/or point that can shoot the three.
> 
> Now, if the dilemma is signing Wade and LeBron OR Wade/LeBron and Bosh, then one of them with Bosh is probably the better fit. But, you can still make a good case for the LeBron/Wade combo because of all the potential positives. They would be the best transition team in the NBA, have the best perimeter defense in the league, and get to the line at a very high rate.


It's easy to play that "worry about everything later" behind a computer screen, like you're playing 2K11, but this is a livelihood. If that trio doesn't work out Paxson is handing his papers in...and since there's a pretty decent chance of that happening, you don't do that. What works in the NBA is balance. You might think it's star power, but the star power on championship teams is balanced. This will *not* be balanced. 

So, like I said, no GM is about to bring in two prominent players who so closely mirror each other (and their current star) when there's one close to them who's value is elsewhere on the court. Bosh isn't that far off from Wade to where you ignore having 3 of the same player when you could potentially have a post player, distributor and scorer. 

Wade, Lebron and Rose overlap too much to consider...and since Rose is not going anywhere, it's not going to happen.

And other than that we can all agree to disagree and see what happens, at which point either side has the right to bump this with tons of smileys and jokes.


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## bballlife

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

The redundancy you are mentioning is that they are all ball dominant, pick-and-roll perimeter players? That is largely because of what their teams ask them to do. 

You're clearly cutting all 3 players short. They are all elite level athletes and dynamic basketball players. An enormous amount of skill and versatility for any team. The type of offense would be important, but the recipe for success would be there every year with just LeBron and Wade.


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## Vuchato

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

I agree that it probably wouldn't work out as well as hoped, but you don't turn down that kind of talent if all you're giving up is cap space. You take the guys and work out the details later. It isn't like it would be hard to trade any of them if it doesn't work out.


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## bballlife

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last; they want answer by July 3rd*



Dre™ said:


> It's easy to play that "worry about everything later" behind a computer screen, like you're playing 2K11, but this is a livelihood. If that trio doesn't work out Paxson is handing his papers in...and since there's a pretty decent chance of that happening, you don't do that. What works in the NBA is balance. You might think it's star power, but the star power on championship teams is balanced. This will *not* be balanced.


If the trio really didn't work, Rose would get traded and the Bulls would likely get a post scorer. And then they would try again. Nobody gets fired. Not balanced because great, versatile players can't adapt? 



> So, like I said, no GM is about to bring in two prominent players who so closely mirror each other (and their current star) when there's one close to them who's value is elsewhere on the court.


Even if they are as multifaceted as LeBron and Wade? LeBron James can play 3 positions.



> Bosh isn't that far off from Wade to where you ignore having 3 of the same player when you could potentially have a post player, distributor and scorer.


That's the tough question. Top 3-4 player in Wade vs. top 12-15 player who is most likely a better fit.


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## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

Dre is right. First off, those three on the court together with two post players means that LeBron James is your best three point shooter. That's not good news. Secondly, trading a player like Rose is never as easy as some are making it seem. It would be met with a ton of resistance because he is a popular hometown kid who has carried the team for two years now. It's also not a simple task to get fair value back when trading a current and future perennial star. It's definitely not as simple as "trading Rose for a post scorer" and being done with it. It's just not that easy unless we're playing NBA Live All Trades Accepted.


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## BG7

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

It's funny to think about the idea of John Paxson being fired for signing Dwyane Wade and Lebron James. Really? He'd get executive of the year for that.

And any team with both Wade and Lebron on it would be mopping up every NBA championship until Wade declines.


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## HB

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

Trading Rose for sentimental value might be tough, actually its not tough. Come on now, you've got a team with Bron and Wade and you think the fans are going to throw a hissy fit that Rose will be traded for a guy that will bring in more championships? They'll help him pack his bags if need be. The city craves championships.


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## Game3525

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Dre is right. First off, those three on the court together with two post players means that LeBron James is your best three point shooter. That's not good news. Secondly, trading a player like Rose is never as easy as some are making it seem. It would be met with a ton of resistance because he is a popular hometown kid who has carried the team for two years now. It's also not a simple task to get fair value back when trading a current and future perennial star. It's definitely not as simple as "trading Rose for a post scorer" and being done with it. It's just not that easy unless we're playing NBA Live All Trades Accepted.


Yup, also most championship teams had legit low post presence, who will be that guy on the Bulls, Noah?


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## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



BG7 said:


> And any team with both Wade and Lebron on it would be mopping up every NBA championship until Wade declines.


No they wouldn't. Without even one legit three point threat on the court, LeBron/Wade/Rose would be driving and kicking to each other. None of them are great three point shooters. Artest sticks LeBron well enough, and Kobe and Wade would be a standstill. The difference would be that Gasol, Bynum and Odom would absolutely obliterate the Bulls' weak ass frontcourt, while Rose being the one big mismatch for Chicago would struggle to score without shooters on the court because they'd pack it in the paint (ala Rondo). 



HB said:


> Trading Rose for sentimental value might be tough, actually its not tough. Come on now, you've got a team with Bron and Wade and you think the fans are going to throw a hissy fit that Rose will be traded for a guy that will bring in more championships? They'll help him pack his bags if need be. The city craves championships.


The problem will be convincing fans he is the problem, when really the problem all along would be that all three of them are the same player. Most fans wouldn't admit that he is the problem and if Paxson started shopping him they would feel he is just being scapegoated.


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## BG7

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Sir Patchwork said:


> No they wouldn't. Without even one legit three point threat on the court, LeBron/Wade/Rose would be driving and kicking to each other. None of them are great three point shooters. Artest sticks LeBron well enough, and Kobe and Wade would be a standstill. The difference would be that Gasol, Bynum and Odom would absolutely obliterate the Bulls' weak ass frontcourt, while Rose being the one big mismatch for Chicago would struggle to score without shooters on the court because they'd pack it in the paint (ala Rondo).
> 
> 
> 
> The problem will be convincing fans he is the problem, when really the problem all along would be that all three of them are the same player. Most fans wouldn't admit that he is the problem and if Paxson started shopping him they would feel he is just being scapegoated.


Wade/Lebron at 30-33% are decent enough three point shooters to get by. But that team would completely dominate other teams. I'm sorry, but when you pair two of the top 5 players in the NBA, you're going to run over the rest of the NBA, especially when you have a defensive mastermind of a coach, and a star point guard to go with them. The talent isn't the best fit ever, but the talent is so overwhelming that they would just stomp over the rest of the league in a way that we haven't seen since the early 2000's Lakers...and then a few years in once they get the depth, they will be 96-97 Bulls level


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



BG7 said:


> Wade/Lebron at 30-33% are decent enough three point shooters to get by. But that team would completely dominate other teams. I'm sorry, but when you pair two of the top 5 players in the NBA, you're going to run over the rest of the NBA, especially when you have a defensive mastermind of a coach, and a star point guard to go with them. The talent isn't the best fit ever, but the talent is so overwhelming that they would just stomp over the rest of the league in a way that we haven't seen since the early 2000's Lakers...and then a few years in once they get the depth, they will be 96-97 Bulls level


You have to have balance. Sorry, that team is a contender but it's not going to win the title without a shooter in the lineup. None of these guys will catch and shoot. They all do the same thing. Drive to make the defense collapse. Defenses will collapse but they won't close out on shooters because they'd have none. Sorry but no dominant team would have a steady diet of LeBron, Rose and Wade shooting a bunch of threes.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

The real area where Wade and Lebron would help is defense. To have both of those guys running around on the defensive end--even a barely competent Defensive coach could turn them into a juggernaut on that end. If they were together under Thibadeau, they could run Boston's system pretty well I think.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

I really want to see these super teams happen.

LeBron and Boozer to Chicago
Wade and Bosh to Miami
Amare to NY, then Parker and Melo join him in '11

CHICAGO: Rose/LeBron/Deng/Boozer/Noah
MIAMI: FA/Wade/Beasley/Bosh/FA
NEW YORK: Parker/FA/Carmelo/FA/Amare
LAKERS: Blake/Kobe/Artest/Gasol/Bynum

It'd be awesome to see these four teams be stacked like that.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Damian Necronamous said:


> I really want to see these super teams happen.
> 
> LeBron and Boozer to Chicago
> Wade and Bosh to Miami
> Amare to NY, then Parker and Melo join him in '11
> 
> CHICAGO: Rose/LeBron/Deng/Boozer/Noah
> MIAMI: FA/Wade/Beasley/Bosh/FA
> NEW YORK: Parker/FA/Carmelo/FA/Amare
> LAKERS: Blake/Kobe/Artest/Gasol/Bynum
> 
> It'd be awesome to see these four teams be stacked like that.


I would hardly consider Miami or New York "stacked" after that. Contenders yes, but not a super team.


----------



## GrandKenyon6

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

Lopez
Bosh/Favors
James/Williams
Lee
Harris

Now there's a super team.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



GrandKenyon6 said:


> Lopez
> Bosh/Favors
> James/Williams
> Lee
> Harris
> 
> Now there's a super team.


Nets don't need James, Bosh or Wade. It will actually hurt their franchise IMO if they got them. They are setting up pretty nicely for the long term as they collect young players through the draft and by the time they're ready to move to Brooklyn, they'll have a competitive team on the rise.


----------



## GrandKenyon6

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

I don't get all this Chicago nonsense if winning is really the priority.

If Wade and James really want to play together, they should go to the Nets. That way they already have a back to the basket post player, an athletic four, and a serviceable point guard.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Damian Necronamous said:


> I really want to see these super teams happen.
> 
> LeBron and Boozer to Chicago
> Wade and Bosh to Miami
> Amare to NY, then Parker and Melo join him in '11
> 
> CHICAGO: Rose/LeBron/Deng/Boozer/Noah
> MIAMI: FA/Wade/Beasley/Bosh/FA
> NEW YORK: Parker/FA/Carmelo/FA/Amare
> LAKERS: Blake/Kobe/Artest/Gasol/Bynum
> 
> It'd be awesome to see these four teams be stacked like that.


Even better with three of them in the east!


----------



## jmk

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Hyperion said:


> *Nets don't need James, Bosh or Wade. It will actually hurt their franchise IMO if they got them. * They are setting up pretty nicely for the long term as they collect young players through the draft and by the time they're ready to move to Brooklyn, they'll have a competitive team on the rise.


Probably one of the most ridiculous things ever posted on this board.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Hyperion said:


> Nets don't need James, Bosh or Wade. It will actually hurt their franchise IMO if they got them. They are setting up pretty nicely for the long term as they collect young players through the draft and by the time they're ready to move to Brooklyn, they'll have a competitive team on the rise.


You realize they just finished one of the worst regular seasons in the history of the NBA, right? And you think that adding two of the three best players on the planet would somehow "hurt" them? Come on now.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



VanillaPrice said:


> You realize they just finished one of the worst regular seasons in the history of the NBA, right? And you think that adding two of the three best players on the planet would somehow "hurt" them? Come on now.


Long term they'll lose out on picks... ahhh **** it. James is the best player of the generation. I retract my previous post and blame it on waking up too early


----------



## bballlife

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Dre is right. First off, those three on the court together with two post players means that LeBron James is your best three point shooter. That's not good news.


I agree. It would be their biggest problem, but it could be alleviated somewhat if they had a stretch 4 and Rose improved his range. 




> Secondly, trading a player like Rose is never as easy as some are making it seem. It would be met with a ton of resistance because he is a popular hometown kid who has carried the team for two years now.


I don't really buy that. I think having LeBron & Wade on your team would completely overwhelm any hesitation to move Rose. Most fans probably want championships more than they want to see a hometown kid carry their team to the first round. 



> It's also not a simple task to get fair value back when trading a current and future perennial star. It's definitely not as simple as "trading Rose for a post scorer" and being done with it. It's just not that easy unless we're playing NBA Live All Trades Accepted.



They don't necessarily have to get fair value back. That's never easy anyway. All they have to do is get back a piece that better fits around Wade & James, two of the three best players in the world. 

And Rose is the best athlete in the NBA at the 1 spot. He is also on a rookie contract for the next 2 seasons. He has a lot of trade value now and in the near future. I don't think it would be hard to move a talent like Rose, even if his numbers did dip a bit in the presence of Wade and James.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



> NY Daily News has learned that Knicks got a second meeting with LeBron's reps on Saturday in Cleveland.


FisolaNYDN


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



> FisolaNYDN According to Knicks official, MSG prez Scott O'Neil and Glen Grunwald, VP of basketball ops, were sent to Ohio after Amar'e agreed to deal


----------



## jmk

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

LeBron's "reps?" What does that mean?


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



> TommyDeeTKB Source tells me "definitely" Mav and "sounds like lebron" will be in NY Wednesday...


Looks like it might be Knicks or Nets.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

Don't believe it.


----------



## jmk

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

I don't even give the Knicks .01% of a chance of getting LBJ. It's not going to happen.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Knicks4life said:


> Looks like it might be Knicks or Nets.


"Definitely" Mav? 

What's that about?


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Dre™ said:


> "Definitely" Mav?
> 
> What's that about?


Maverick Carter


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



> TommyDeeTKB Source says MSG/knicks pres scott o'neill en route to ohio as we tweet...#july4th


Wonder why ?


----------



## Ron

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Knicks4life said:


> Wonder why ?


Hate to rain on your parade, but no one with any credibility is reporting or confirming this, as of 7:22 p.m. EST.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

The NY Daily News is manufacturing this ****.


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



> SpearsNBAYahoo Y! Sports confirmed @FisolaNYDN report Knicks had 2nd meeting w/LeBron's reps Sat. Meeting was primarily for detailed contract explanation


http://twitter.com/SpearsNBAYahoo/status/17748476153


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

Ok, that's no big thing. Lebron wasn't even there. They just clarified the contract options with his people because Lebron already has them at the bottom of the list, if they couldn't even clearly explain the money he was gonna be completely like FOH :laugh:

No big thing to me.


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

And it was just mention on ESPNews.


----------



## jmk

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

NYK fans are like the paraplegic freshman geeks with horrible acne and coke-bottle glasses that actually believe they have a shot with the homecoming queen.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

Like I said true or not it's no big thing. They're just clarifying the money. 

Lebron's not there, and Walsh/D'Antoni isn't there. If they were there it'd be more serious.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



jmk said:


> NYK fans are like the paraplegic freshman geeks with horrible acne and coke-bottle glasses that actually believe they have a shot with the homecoming queen.


Because they have rich daddies :yes:


----------



## jmk

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Dre™ said:


> Because they have rich granddaddies :yes:


Fixed.


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Dre™ said:


> Like I said true or not it's no big thing. They're just clarifying the money.
> 
> Lebron's not there, and Walsh/D'Antoni isn't there. If they were there it'd be more serious.


How is talking about salaries not something serious?


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



jmk said:


> NYK fans are like the paraplegic freshman geeks with horrible acne and coke-bottle glasses that actually believe they have a shot with the homecoming queen.


Talk trash when your team doesn't have the worst record.


----------



## Ron

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Knicks4life said:


> And it was just mention on ESPNews.


So let me get this straight.

LeBron's "reps", not LeBron himself, met with the Knicks a second time to clarify the offer?

In other words, since LeBron (and/or his reps), could not understand the Knicks' offer in the first place, the Knicks' travelled all the way to Ohio so they could explain the offer?

They couldn't do it by telephone?


----------



## Ron

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



jmk said:


> NYK fans are like the paraplegic freshman geeks with horrible acne and coke-bottle glasses that actually believe they have a shot with the homecoming queen.


I can understand Knicks' fans desire/apprehension...dude, they haven't won a title since 1973.

37 years ago.


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Ron said:


> So let me get this straight.
> 
> LeBron's "reps", not LeBron himself, met with the Knicks a second time to clarify the offer?
> 
> In other words, since LeBron (and/or his reps), could not understand the Knicks' offer in the first place, the Knicks' travelled all the way to Ohio so they could explain the offer?
> 
> They couldn't do it by telephone?


Don't know but the Knicks are going back to Ohio today.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Knicks4life said:


> How is talking about salaries not something serious?


The Knicks offered him the different contract options in the original meeting

Lebron was like ":uhoh: I don't know if I completely understand that, could you explain it to my agent", so they're doing that.

It's clarification, not progress. If it was forward progress Lebron and more important Knicks brass would be there. 

Stop being delusional.


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

If it was just that it could have been handled over the phone.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Knicks4life said:


> If it was just that it could have been handled over the phone.


Paperwork my friend, paperwork. 

Stop being delusional...


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

They can email paperwork.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

Or they can meet face to face. 

There's no difference, because then if it leaked that the Knicks and Lebron's team had spoke again on the phone or emailed each other, you'd still be creaming yourself. 

But you just implied with your last two posts that you consider email or phone conversations "less serious" engagements, even though in essence however they communicate it's for the same purpose.

So what makes one "more or less serious" than the other?

Clarification. Not progress.

You're trying to hold onto the last shrivel of hope and it's pretty clear. We'll agree to disagree, and I promise not to laugh when Lebron signs elsewhere.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

What Knicks fans need to be doing is saving face and get their "this wasn't a Lebron-or-bust summer" arguments together, and stop clinging to something that's not feasible.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

They're talking about after Wednesday before he decides. I told myself if he waited past Monday to make a decision, he'd be dragging it out. He had a bunch of time before July 1st to evaluate and has already met with the teams. He is just building suspense now.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Dre™;6312136 said:


> What Knicks fans need to be doing is saving face and get their "this wasn't a Lebron-or-bust summer" arguments together, and stop clinging to something that's not feasible.


Seriously! Last time I checked a team with him isn't guaranteed to win the championship or even make it to the Finals. There is probably about 1/3 of the league right now without a contract. The Knicks should be signing like madmen while everyone else is holding their dicks waiting for Lebron and Wade to finish basking in the spotlight.


If I was a GM of one of these teams, I would have ten guys already signed and it would be a playoff team at least.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Sir Patchwork said:


> They're talking about after Wednesday before he decides. I told myself if he waited past Monday to make a decision, he'd be dragging it out. He had a bunch of time before July 1st to evaluate and has already met with the teams. He is just building suspense now.


Thing about it is he's running a camp in Akron, so he's gonna be home for those 3 days..I'm thinking the longer he keeps it going the more chance he's gonna realize he should just stay home.

If he does though it's only going to be 3 years...so that's kind of a copout.


----------



## jmk

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

Or there's the line of thought that he doesn't want to announce he's leaving Cleveland...and then have to host his Cleveland bball camp for 3 days.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



jmk said:


> Or there's the line of thought that he doesn't want to announce he's leaving Cleveland...and then have to host his Cleveland bball camp for 3 days.


Excellent point.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

Definitely true too. 

The funniest thing to me is how mad the Knicks and Heat fanbases are right now, but the team with one of the worst records ever, the Nets, are chilling...


----------



## Game3525

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Dre™ said:


> Definitely true too.
> 
> The funniest thing to me is how mad the Knicks and Heat fanbases are right now, but the team with one of the worst records ever, the Nets, are chilling...


Hell, I would be too. They got no where to go but up!


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

New Jersey is chilling because they have a lot to be excited about regardless of who signs where. They were the worst team in the league last year. They have a new PF prospect in Favors, they have an up and comer in Lopez, they have a good new coach in Avery, a rich/determined new owner, and some other solid pieces. LeBron would make them an unbelievable team, but even without LeBron they'll be contending for a playoff spot next season...which is a big step up for them. 

New York and Chicago's progress hinges on free agent signings. New Jersey has already made great progress. A superstar like LeBron or Wade would be the final piece or close.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

I know right...


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

Nets fan can be as chilled as they want to be but they don't have the right to talk trash about any teams not even the Clippers.


----------



## jmk

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*

The question with NJ is, if they don't get any of their big 3, do they call up Boozer or Lee, or do they do the smart thing and give Favors the chance to learn quickly on the job.

If there were a 2 or a 3 the level of Boozer or Lee on the market, that would be a decent signing, but with Favors on board and turning a lot of heads, it wouldn't be a good move to bring in Boozer or Lee. Not without LeBron or Wade coming with them.

I really think each player has about 2 realistic options for them right now.

Wade can either stay in Miami or go to Chicago. Going to the Knicks would be a historic amount of silliness.

LeBron can either go to Chicago or New Jersey. I think he's past Cleveland at this point. If Wade goes to Chicago, I think LeBron is in Jersey.

Bosh can either follow Wade to Miami/Chicago or follow LeBron to New Jersey/Chicago. Houston is a possibility, but I just don't see it right now.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

If I am the Nets, I wouldn't even go after Boozer. Just stick with the young core you have if you can't get Lebron or Wade.


----------



## jmk

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



Knicks4life said:


> Nets fan can be as chilled as they want to be but they don't have the right to talk trash about any teams not even the Clippers.


Why not?

Nets have one of the most exciting futures in this league. 

The Knicks have Donnie Walsh, James Dolan, and their main catch in this FA, where they put in all their chips, is a player who has serious knee and eye problems whose contract can't even be insured.

Not to mention the massive amount of draft picks NJ owns over the next few years compared to NY's empty cupboard.

There's not a single fanbase in the league that doesn't have the right to talk trash about the Knicks.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

Bu--Bu--But--it's the Mecca!!


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

They won 12 games.


----------



## jmk

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Knicks4life said:


> They won 12 games.


That's cool. Does W/L record carry over to the next season?

If you want to look at past records, though, for the past decade, who has had the better records between the Nets and Knicks?

Get back to me when you can.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Knicks4life said:


> They won 12 games.


Irrelavent. The Nets' future is brighter at this point then the Knicks', barring a LeBron or Wade signing. Oh, and I'm not even a Nets fan, but atleast they haven't been the laughing stock of the leauge for the last decade.


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



> PDcavsinsider According to league source, Knicks are planning another trip to Cleveland to meet with LeBron tonight.


http://twitter.com/PDcavsinsider/status/17755837189


----------



## Luke

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

Oh, and ofcourse RStar is online on the fourth of july. Typical Canadians.


----------



## Drewbs

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

i cannot wait to point and laugh at the knicks.


----------



## jmk

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



> NEW YORK -- The New York Knicks held a secret second meeting with LeBron James' representatives to clarify exactly where they stood in regards to signing Amare Stoudemire, two NBA sources told ESPN.com on Sunday.
> 
> The meeting, attended by James' agent, Leon Rose, Knicks general manager Glen Grunwald and others, took place Saturday morning in Cleveland before James himself met with the Cleveland Cavaliers and Chicago Bulls, one source said.
> 
> It lasted about an hour, with James' representatives wanting to know whether it was true (it wasn't) that New York had already formally offered Stoudemire a five-year, $100 million contract.
> 
> James did not attend, nor did Knicks president Donnie Walsh or coach Mike D'Antoni.
> 
> "It was somewhat of a clarification meeting to deal with some of the misinformation that is out there," one source said.
> 
> A second source said it was the Knicks, not James, who requested the second meeting, which was first reported by the New York Daily News on its website Sunday afternoon.


Obviously this meeting means LBJ is coming to NY!!!!!!!!


----------



## jmk

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

Oh, and since KnicksfanFORLIFE loves quoting this guy's twitter feed so much.



> Knicks fans may want to kill this messenger, but multiple sources still say NY still trailing CLE, CHI, NJ on LeBron's list even w/ Amar'e


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

I never said he was coming probably stay with the Cavs.


----------



## jmk

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Knicks4life said:


> I never said he was coming probably stay with the Cavs.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

I can't see LeBron going back to Cleavland after this.


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



jmk said:


> If you want to look at past records, though, for the past decade, who has had the better records between the Nets and Knicks?


Have the Knicks ever had the worst record in the NBA?


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



> chadfordinsider Just spoke to Knicks president Donnie Walsh. He said no meeting tonight with LeBron James. Link and larger story coming ...


http://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/17757758251


----------



## Cris

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

Lebron is mulling his decision? Who would have known?


----------



## jmk

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Knicks4life said:


> Have the Knicks ever had the worst record in the NBA?


Are you as simple-minded as your posts suggest? The Nets had a horrible year last year. The Knicks have been the laughingstock of the NBA for the past decade. There is no comparison here. You're the only one that thinks there is.


----------



## Cris

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



jmk said:


> Are you as simple-minded as your posts suggest? The Nets had a horrible year last year. The Knicks have been the laughingstock of the NBA for the past decade. There is no comparison here. You're the only one that thinks there is.


Yep.


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



jmk said:


> Are you as simple-minded as your posts suggest? The Nets had a horrible year last year. The Knicks have been the laughingstock of the NBA for the past decade. There is no comparison here. You're the only one that thinks there is.


What are you talking about I never said that the Knicks are in a better situation then the Nets? The Nets have good young talent and probably a bright future but coming off one of the worst records in the NBA's history Nets fans should not be insulting other teams.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Knicks4life said:


> What are you talking about I never said that the Knicks are in a better situation then the Nets? The Nets have good young talent and probably a bright future but coming off one of the worst records in the NBA's history Nets fans should not be insulting other teams.


Considering it's not the '09-'10 season anymore, and they seemingly have a (much) better looking future then the Knicks at this point, Nets fans can say whatever they want.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



VanillaPrice said:


> Considering it's not the '09-'10 season anymore, and they seemingly have a (much) better looking future then the Knicks at this point, Nets fans can say whatever they want.


No they can't.

They still suck until they prove otherwise... or at least wait until they actually sign someone and don't just swap out Yi for Favors.

Drafting a 19 year old doesn't give you bragging rights.


----------



## jmk

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Jamel Irief said:


> No they can't.
> 
> They still suck until they prove otherwise... or at least wait until they actually sign someone and don't just swap out Yi for Favors.
> 
> Drafting a 19 year old doesn't give you bragging rights.


Drafting a 13 year old would have given them bragging rights over the Knicks.


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

The second meeting was just to clarify the cap situation for both this year and the next and to clarify where NY stands with Amare..


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

I don't know if I've ever seen the Sports media more incompetent and annoying as covering this free agency. They are literally just writing complete made up bull**** just to have something to put down. Are there no real journalists covering basketball left at ESPN? How about making a phone call, confirming your sources--****'s worse than that guy on the wire.

****ing tabloids.


----------



## Cap

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

Sports journalism now pretty much _is_ tabloid journalism, which funnily enough is actually getting pretty "good" by comparison.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

I didn't want to make another thread, so I'll put it here. 

I just realized if the Clippers dump Mardy Collins for some Bentley keychains they'll have just as much money (31M cap number) as the Bulls..and noone talks about that...


----------



## JerryWest

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Dre™ said:


> I didn't want to make another thread, so I'll put it here.
> 
> I just realized if the Clippers dump Mardy Collins for some Bentley keychains they'll have just as much money (31M cap number) as the Bulls..and noone talks about that...


I didn't realize it either. They have a better base than than the Knicks and Nets, if they had a different owner, they'd probably be getting more looks.


----------



## Tooeasy

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Dre™ said:


> I didn't want to make another thread, so I'll put it here.
> 
> I just realized if the Clippers dump Mardy Collins for some Bentley keychains they'll have just as much money (31M cap number) as the Bulls..and noone talks about that...


To me, lebron on the west coast playing in the same city as the defending champs, but on a different team would be pretty badass. Clown on the knicks and nets if people may, but the clippers are the damn laughing stock of the NBA, if he turned them into NBA champs he would have all kinds of new bragging rights.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

They're the ultimate darkhorse, people just treated their meeting like "oh, you have money too, how much?", nobody's talking about them.

I don't think he'll go there though because of Sterling..that's why Geffen was trying to buy it out from under him. But he tried broke it through Worldwide Wes when he should've been talking to Mav Carter.


----------



## Ron

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Tooeasy said:


> To me, lebron on the west coast playing in the same city as the defending champs, but on a different team would be pretty badass. Clown on the knicks and nets if people may, but the clippers are the damn laughing stock of the NBA, *if he turned them into NBA champs he would have all kinds of new bragging rights*.


He already tried that with the Cavs and it didn't work out for him.

Still, Clippers have the pieces in place. But I don't see LeBron going there, unfortunately. The ****ing owner is the only owner who didn't show up to pitch his team...that speaks volumes, I would think, for LeBron...and the Clippers don't even have a coach in place and the two rumored finalists are not top shelf, not by a long shot...just like "Manny being Manny," its "Donald being Donald."


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Ron said:


> He already tried that with the Cavs and it didn't work out for him.


So why does that exclude him from being able to do it elsewhere :uhoh:


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

Since Cavs have a hugh edge...

LeBron need to tell Bulls to wait for 2 months.

Why?

To test Bulls sincerity.


----------



## thaKEAF

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

Clippers would be the worst decision for him. I mean how far do you have to go to find this organization with any kind of plan..any kind of legit front office/coach? They have cap space and the team looks nice but then again their teams have looked pretty good on paper for years.


----------



## eddymac

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

LeBron is milking the **** out of this.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

I'm trying to figure out why people keep acting like this is some painstaking process. Do you understand that this little week that free agency goes on would end up being less than 1% of the time they spend under contract to whoever they sign with? 

This isn't Drew Gooden we're talking about here, this is a move that defines the Eastern conference for at least the next 3 years...give these guys time.


----------



## eddymac

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Dre™ said:


> I'm trying to figure out why people keep acting like this is some painstaking process. Do you understand that this little week that free agency goes on would end up being less than 1% of the time they spend under contract to whoever they sign with?
> 
> This isn't Drew Gooden we're talking about here, this is a move that defines the Eastern conference for at least the next 3 years...give these guys time.


i'm sure after meeting with all the teams he now has an idea where he wants to go, come on now.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

So he shouldn't give it a couple nights to think on? **** he should think on it for a week if need be.

Us fans say a lot of stuff that's ignorant of the player's perspective, we simplify things because it's as easy as typing it and clicking post, but things don't work that way all the time.


----------



## thaKEAF

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

:laugh: its to the point where im more worried about wade/bosh than lebron and you all should be too..after anticipating this **** nonstop yall gonna be suicidal when he signs back with the cavs


----------



## eddymac

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

It's more or less him playing the "game" of keeping people in suspense. It keeps his name out there for a few more days. Very smart to say the least.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

I personally would rather he just went back to the Cavs


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Ballscientist said:


> Since Cavs have a hugh edge...
> 
> LeBron need to tell Bulls to wait for 2 months.
> 
> Why?
> 
> To test Bulls sincerity.


I agree with this. I honestly don't think the Bulls really want or appreciate Lebron. And they would prefer to get Wade, or maybe even Bosh. If Lebron waits even a week I think he'll see this to be true.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

Thing about it is him saying no to Chicago doesn't set them back 6 years like it does Cleveland, so they're not as desperate. 

And nothing about maneuvering all this cap room tells me they don't appreciate the opportunity Lebron could provide them.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

Hey if a week goes by and Wade says yes to the Bulls they have to sign him. Lebron is far more valuable, but you can't chance waiting on him to make up his mind and maybe ending up with Boozer instead of either


----------



## JerryWest

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

What about the possibility that LeBron has decided already he's returning to the Cavs ... and he's going to wait a few more months just **** over the other teams? I mean while this waiting has gone on, Amare / Joe Johnson / Rudy Gay are all off the table.

What happens if Wade resigns with the Heat? Then Bosh resigns with the Raptors or is involved with a sign and trade to Houston?

Bulls get left in the cold.

Talks with David Lee are already progressing for instance and he's going to be off the table pretty soon. It'd be hilarious if during all this waiting, he prevents the Bulls from signing Wade and adding additional talent.

I mean if he really wants to win, Chicago is more then willing to sign up Bosh right after. All delays just screw up the Bulls free agency plans. Especially as top secondary free agents fall of the map too as time goes by.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



> Personally directed by LeBron, the new site will keep you up to speed on his actions off the court, his focus on strengthening the community _and why “It will always be about more than basketball”._


http://www.lebronjames.com/

Apparently people are saying this is where he'll make his announcement.

What's with that quote though, he's been saying the exact opposite for 2 years now.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

Why doesn't he just get a twitter? Sheesh


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



> Based on several people who have talked to LeBron in last 72 hours, he is giving impression he's undecided after last week's meetings.





> He really likes Rose & Noah. But there's lack if shooters on roster. Also it doesn't sound like he's exactly being welcomed by Rose.





> Also, can confirm several reports of a rift between Wes Wesley & James camp. Wes was indeed pushing Chicago, I'm told.





> At this point, LeBron has tightly closed ranks, only seriously talking about decision with a couple people. Which is why so little info.





> Didn't say Rose was anti-LeBron. But the word is preference was Joe Johnson. They have same agent. That is what multiple people tell me.


http://twitter.com/PDcavsinsider


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

I could see Derrick Rose not wanting Lebron since it would basically make him a spot up shooter. Could also see him not wanting Wade for the same reason, though Wade doesn't really monopolize the ball as much as Lebron.


----------



## Vuchato

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Kenneth said:


> *I mean if he really wants to win, Chicago is more then willing to sign up Bosh right after.* All delays just screw up the Bulls free agency plans. Especially as top secondary free agents fall of the map too as time goes by.


The thing I don't get, is how exactly does Chicago even get Bosh? They can't sign him outright unless they can find someone willing to take on Deng (which they supposedly can't) and Bosh wants that 6th year anyway, and Toronto won't do that unless they get Noah (or Rose) in return, and even if Chicago is willing to do that, would LeBron and Bosh even be willing to go there without Noah? Especially for Bosh, since he already said he doesn't want to guard centers, and would have to on the Bulls without Noah.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

Bosh wants $125.5 Million contract.(SNT) Raptors don't want Beasley, Deng and Noah.

Raptors will take Wade if Heat want Bosh.

Raptors will take Rose if Bulls want Bosh.

Now it seems that Wade will sign with Bulls first and LeBron take the pay cut to Bulls.

*Pay Cut*


----------



## jmk

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

Shut up already, man.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

Rose isn't welcoming LeBron for the same reason LeBron is hesitant about the roster. No shooters. They have talent but the blend is a little off.


----------



## GrandKenyon6

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Rose isn't welcoming LeBron for the same reason LeBron is hesitant about the roster. No shooters. They have talent but the blend is a little off.


This is exactly why LeBron should go to New Jersey. He gets all the benefits of New York (and more) while having a roster that complements him and can win right away.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

Pretty sure that whole Rose rumor not welcoming Lebron was dispelled.


----------



## RR 823

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



futuristxen said:


> Why doesn't he just get a twitter? Sheesh


LeBron must've heard you, because he got one today. Nothing on it yet.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

If anyone cares..I'm pretty sure if you sign up for the e-mail/text alert on his website his announcement will be sent to you. 

I entered and it said "you'll be the first to know"...I'm pretty sure that's what's happening.


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Dre™ said:


> So he shouldn't give it a couple nights to think on? **** he should think on it for a week if need be.
> 
> Us fans say a lot of stuff that's ignorant of the player's perspective, we simplify things because it's as easy as typing it and clicking post, but things don't work that way all the time.


Exactly, this guy is not only deciding what he's going to do next season, but probably what he's going to do/where he's going to be for the rest of his life. I don't see how waiting a week to decide is really "milking it".


----------



## ATLien

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

What are the chances after all this he still signs a 3 year deal with some team?

I really don't want to have to go through this constant **** on ESPN in 3 years..it's worse than the ESPN Favre watch now


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

If he re-signs in Cleveland I'd be shocked if it was a long term deal, unless they can get Bosh.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

I had heard some talk that it'll be a 5 or 6 yr deal (depending if he stays or goes) but with a 3 yr opt out clause.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

That makes sense.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

He is milking it.


----------



## ajax25

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

I would milk it too if I were him, I really don't think taking a week to decide your future is milking it but whatever...the dude has some serious decisions to make that will affect the entire landscape of the NBA because once he decides i have a feeling the other big names will follow suite very quickly


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

A week? You guys act like July 1st was the first time he was able to give it thought. He has had a couple months now basically. He knew what teams would have cap space and what pieces they have, and what cities would suit his personality. 

If he stays in Cleveland, I think he definitely milked this whole process quite a bit. If he announces after his camp that he is leaving, then I completely understand not wanting to announce it until after his camp _in Cleveland_ was over.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

He might've had an idea but you don't make any strong commitments until you meet face to face with management and feel them out.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Sir Patchwork said:


> A week? You guys act like July 1st was the first time he was able to give it thought. He has had a couple months now basically. He knew what teams would have cap space and what pieces they have, and what cities would suit his personality.
> 
> If he stays in Cleveland, I think he definitely milked this whole process quite a bit. If he announces after his camp that he is leaving, then I completely understand not wanting to announce it until after his camp _in Cleveland_ was over.


and how long has he known who is going to be coaching the cavs? how long has he known amare was going to be on the knicks? how long has he had since he's heard proposals from all the teams? i disagree that he knew what pieces teams would have. the draft changed that and free agency before he signs can change that as well.

obviously he's had a little bit of time to get a general idea of where he wanted to go but the circumstances are changing daily and until he actually got together to meet with all the teams, making any decision wouldn't have made sense.


----------



## Lynx

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



futuristxen said:


> Why doesn't he just get a twitter? Sheesh


Heeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeee's LeBron

http://twitter.com/KingJames


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



rocketeer said:


> and how long has he known who is going to be coaching the cavs? how long has he known amare was going to be on the knicks? how long has he had since he's heard proposals from all the teams? i disagree that he knew what pieces teams would have. the draft changed that and free agency before he signs can change that as well.


Yeah I forgot about that aspect. That shuts that whole argument down.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

My Guess is that he wants to stay in Cleveland, but he obviously wants someone else to come and help him out.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

Yeah once I heard he's been recruiting Bosh to come to Cleveland it's pretty clear he doesn't want to leave...people are saying he's milking it but I bet he's more torn than he's ever been in his life.

He wants to stick it out in Cleveland but there's really no plan or timeline for them to turn that roster into a real title contender...and there are other options out there that'll be better for him. So it's sentimentality vs. sense at the end of the day.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Dre™ said:


> He might've had an idea but you don't make any strong commitments until you meet face to face with management and feel them out.


Hes been milking it for over a year. Saying he'd love to go to team x, or "team y has an amazing history. Who wouldn't want to be a part of that?"

Lebron _needs_ the spotlight on him. When his career is all wrapped up and no one cares about him anymore, hes going to have some pretty severe problems.

Hes going to milk this for as long as he can before it will adversely affect his future.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

What has Chicago done? Nothing. They're waiting for LeBron. As are the Heat. As are the Nets. These teams have a ton of cap space and haven't used any of it waiting for LeBron. Free agency is at a standstill for those teams because of him, and he is milking it. 

The pieces are the same. Outside of Amare on the Knicks, who feel they're out of the hunt anyways, nobody has added anybody. LeBron knows what each team can offer from a management and talent standpoint. He's just milking it if he plans to stay in Cleveland.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

He doesn't know what Bosh or Wade are gonna do. 

He originally planned to announce July 5th cause I'm sure he figured Bosh would just piggy back him, but the more he hears about their candlelight dinners and twitter shoutouts he's not so sure Bosh will follow him. 

They're all thinking. Bosh and Wade could easily go to Miami or Chicago without him, don't try to put this all on him.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Dre™ said:


> He doesn't know what Bosh or Wade are gonna do.
> 
> He originally planned to announce July 5th cause I'm sure he figured Bosh would just piggy back him, but the more he hears about their candlelight dinners and twitter shoutouts he's not so sure Bosh will follow him.
> 
> They're all thinking. Bosh and Wade could easily go to Miami or Chicago without him, don't try to put this all on him.


Put it all on him? He doesn't know Chris Bosh? He can't ask him "Hey, I'm going to sign in Chicago if you come. What do you say?"

Come on.


----------



## Lynx

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



> Cavs officials are confident of two things now, multiple sources say: Chris Bosh won't play for them next season, but LeBron James will


....



> Bosh has long made it clear that he doesn't want to play in Cleveland, and LeBron knew it was a longshot to sell him on it


http://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

I wouldn't be surprised if Lebron is recruiting Bosh because he knows he wont go to Cleveland so he can tell Cavs fans that he tried to make that team better when he leaves.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



R-Star said:


> Put it all on him? He doesn't know Chris Bosh? He can't ask him "Hey, I'm going to sign in Chicago if you come. What do you say?"
> 
> Come on.


Bosh still doesn't know if he wants to go with Lebron or Wade at this point.

At the end of the day we don't know any of these guys, we have no concept of being an NBA free agent, so all this armchair counseling is us talking out of our ass. 

Let's just sit back and watch.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



R-Star said:


> Hes been milking it for over a year. Saying he'd love to go to team x, or "team y has an amazing history. Who wouldn't want to be a part of that?"


when lebron is constantly being asked those questions he really only had two responses he could give. "no comment" or say something nice about the city or team. who really cares which one he chose?


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Dre™ said:


> Bosh still doesn't know if he wants to go with Lebron or Wade at this point.
> 
> At the end of the day we don't know any of these guys, we have no concept of being an NBA free agent, so all this armchair counseling is us talking out of our ass.
> 
> Let's just sit back and watch.


No one has ever made a bigger deal out of being a free agent then Lebron. You guys love to make excuses for him, but the bottom line is hes a drama queen and loves every minute of the "Where will you go? Please, tell us Lebron!"


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



R-Star said:


> No one has ever made a bigger deal out of being a free agent then Lebron. You guys love to make excuses for him, but the bottom line is hes a drama queen and loves every minute of the "Where will you go? Please, tell us Lebron!"


Because he's the one who told NY to clear out their cap space for 2010? Come on now! He didn't start this. ESPN Globequirer started it.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



rocketeer said:


> when lebron is constantly being asked those questions he really only had two responses he could give. "no comment" or say something nice about the city or team. who really cares which one he chose?


Lets try not to make **** up, ok?

"I'd love to play in Chicago, I mean man, where do I start."
"Miami would be great. The city, the culture, it would be amazing."
New York
New Jersey
The ****ing Clippers.

So yea, calm down with making **** up like "no comment" or "Nice city, but that's all I'm willing to say."

Hes been going out of his way to make a circus of the whole thing.


----------



## Kaas

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

Tabloid journalism and Twitter feeds are how we're getting our news now...I'm just going to wait until something is officially announced.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Sir Patchwork said:


> What has Chicago done? Nothing. They're waiting for LeBron. As are the Heat. As are the Nets. These teams have a ton of cap space and haven't used any of it waiting for LeBron. Free agency is at a standstill for those teams because of him, and he is milking it.


the bulls traded away hinrich and their first round pick to dump salary. they weakened their team.

the heat didn't really do anything.

the nets drafted favors.

the cavs hired a new coach.

you don't think any of those things could effect where lebron wanted to go? free agency obviously isn't at a complete standstill. maybe the knicks made themselves a legitimate contender for lebron by getting amare(or maybe they eliminated themselves from the running)? maybe lebron is waiting to see if the cavs can pull off a big deal(like a bosh one) before he commits to stay there?

no doubt, he's milking it a little bit but really espn is mostly to blame with the constant coverage over everything that happens(and tons of other stuff that probably never happened). there are all kinds of legitimate reasons for lebron to be taking his time with this as well. he has not had a ton of time to think about the current circumstances.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



R-Star said:


> Lets try not to make **** up, ok?
> 
> "I'd love to play in Chicago, I mean man, where do I start."
> "Miami would be great. The city, the culture, it would be amazing."
> New York
> New Jersey
> The ****ing Clippers.
> 
> So yea, calm down with making **** up like "no comment" or "Nice city, but that's all I'm willing to say."
> 
> Hes been going out of his way to make a circus of the whole thing.


how did i make anything up? i said he could either say no comment or something nice about the city or team. you listed some examples of nice things to say about teams and said i'm making something up?


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



rocketeer said:


> how did i make anything up? i said he could either say no comment or something nice about the city or team. you listed some examples of nice things to say about teams and said i'm making something up?


He went around saying he'd like to play for a third of the teams in the league. That is not how you played his comments out at all. 

Lebron is the Lindsay Lohan of the NBA, the only thing different is you'd switch the fact she gets getting uglier every time you see her, with Lebron becoming even better every year he plays. Other than that, they're the exact same drama queen. The whole "Look at me, I'm drunk!" "Look at me, I'm doing drugs!" _oh no, why is no one paying attention? I'll show them!_ "Look at me, I'm ahhhhh, I'm a lesbian now!"

That's Lebron. Hes Lindsay ****ing Lohan.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



R-Star said:


> He went around saying he'd like to play for a third of the teams in the league. That is not how you played his comments out at all.
> 
> Lebron is the Lindsay Lohan of the NBA, the only thing different is you'd switch the fact she gets getting uglier every time you see her, with Lebron becoming even better every year he plays. Other than that, the whole "Look at me, I'm drunk!" "Look at me, I'm doing drugs!" _oh no, why is no one paying attention? I'll show them!_ "Look at me, I'm ahhhhh, I'm a lesbian now!"
> 
> That's Lebron. Hes Lindsay ****ing Lohan.


my point was that when he constantly is getting asked those questions about tons of different teams(basically every "big market" team in the league), what's he supposed to say? either "no comment" or say something nice about the team. he went the route of saying something nice about the team(or it was only talked about when he did).

lebron wasn't the guy covering the lebron story when there literally were no new developments. that was espn. that is who you should be mad at over this whole thing.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



rocketeer said:


> my point was that when he constantly is getting asked those questions about tons of different teams(basically every "big market" team in the league), what's he supposed to say? either "no comment" or say something nice about the team. he went the route of saying something nice about the team(or it was only talked about when he did).
> 
> lebron wasn't the guy covering the lebron story when there literally were no new developments. that was espn. that is who you should be mad at over this whole thing.


If you're still playing for Cleveland? You're reply every time should be "I play for Cleveland and I'm happy here. No further comment."

not

"I'd love to play for the Bulls. They've got a lot of nice young talent. The city is amazing, and I don't even have to tell you about the history. It would be a dream to play there."
"So will you sign in Chicago Lebron?"
"_laughs_ You'll just have to tune in and find out won't you?"

That's word for word. Obviously not, but its not far off, so lets not act like he wasn't pouring gasoline all over this the whole year and eating it up. Eating it up and dancing on the sidelines like a dick head.


----------



## ajax25

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

haha who cares if he is milking it for all its worth, I would too, getting wined and dined and all the perks that come with it, hell ya I would milk it unless I absolutely knew what I wanted to do. This seems like the cold war to me when it comes to FA signings, wwhich players is going to make the first move. I have a feeling when its all said and done Lebron stays in cleveland, Wade stays in Miami, and Bosh goes to one of those (only cuz he hates the Raptors)


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



R-Star said:


> If you're still playing for Cleveland? You're reply every time should be "I play for Cleveland and I'm happy here. No further comment."
> 
> not
> 
> "I'd love to play for the Bulls. They've got a lot of nice young talent. The city is amazing, and I don't even have to tell you about the history. It would be a dream to play there."
> "So will you sign in Chicago Lebron?"
> "_laughs_ You'll just have to tune in and find out won't you?"
> 
> That's word for word. Obviously not, but its not far off, so lets not act like he wasn't pouring gasoline all over this the whole year and eating it up. Eating it up and dancing on the sidelines like a dick head.


so your preference would have been that he went the "no comment" route. you easily could have just said that in your first response to my post and been done with it.


----------



## ajax25

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

what they really need to do is just all three decide that they want to make their own team, Wade, Bosh, Lebron say "we want to bring back the Sonics and play in Seattle....oh by the way **** you David Stern!" that would be awesome


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

The Heat forum is pretty happy about something..I'm not about to blow the spot up 'cause it might be sensitive but just go over there and look in that offseason thread. 

Nothing specific or with names but it's enough to have them excited.


----------



## -33-

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*



Dre™ said:


> The Heat forum is pretty happy about something..I'm not about to blow the spot up 'cause it might be sensitive but just go over there and look in that offseason thread.
> 
> Nothing specific or with names but it's enough to have them excited.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: Update: Lebron mulling decision*

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5359255

A special seriously? At least the coin is going to charity.


----------



## Brandon Real

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

This is some big time whoring going on right now. :-\


----------



## Rather Unique

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

whoring indeed...but we're all gonna watch. :laugh: :|


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

Alright let's have some fun..avatar bets...based on what I've seen this evening I'm saying Miami...


----------



## Game3525

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

I say Cleveland, I don't think Lebron is so ruthless that he will shatter their hearts on live television.


----------



## gi0rdun

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

Cleveland.


----------



## Brandon Real

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

It has to be Cleveland. Where is this press conference being held? In Ohio?


Not a chance in hell he says "I'm a Chicago Bull" in his home state. They wouldn't let him out of the state alive.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

Granted I would have gained a ton of respect for Lebron if he screws Cleveland on live television in Ohio, that takes some balls.


----------



## Jakain

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

A possibility that comes to mind:

He's airing it on TV so he can better explain why he's leaving Cleveland. Can show a huge debt of gratitude for his hometown fans as well, so it doesn't anger his Cleveland fanbase as much.

Team Lebron can also use this opportunity to beat out Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh's documentaries on the Lebronathon as well...should make for a nice trilogy for anyone that cares about how crazy this sweepstakes has been.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

That's actually a great point. 

Where this announcement will be made is very important. I wonder what kind of situation it will be. I hope he doesn't just call in, he needs to manup and have a press conference.


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

NY or Miami


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

I guess since he went straight to the NBA, he wants to feel like a HS recruit picking where he'll go on National TV. That'd be funny if he had a bunch of hats there of all the teams he met with lol.


----------



## RR 823

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



Organized Chaos said:


> I guess since he went straight to the NBA, he wants to feel like a HS recruit picking where he'll go on National TV. That'd be funny if he had a bunch of hats there of all the teams he met with lol.


lmao now that's a good idea


----------



## Brandon Real

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



Dre™;6313943 said:


> That's actually a great point.
> 
> Where this announcement will be made is very important. I wonder what kind of situation it will be. I hope he doesn't just call in, he needs to manup and have a press conference.



Just pure estimating on my part:


If it's in Cleveland, at the Q for instance, I say 90% to 10% he stays with the Cavs.


If it's at his home, 60% Cleveland, 40% Elsewhere.


Outside of Ohio, 85% elsewhere, 15% Cleveland.


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

Supposedly Maverick Carter and possibly Lebron James are going to New York tomorrow.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

Que?


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

* LeBron, Wade and Bosh plan conference call on Wednesday*




> LeBron James(notes), Dwyane Wade(notes) and Chris Bosh(notes) are expected to share a conference call on Wednesday to discuss free agency and try to move closer to finalizing their decisions, a league source with knowledge of the plan told Yahoo! Sports.
> 
> The three players are motivated to reach resolutions and make their choices public by Thursday, several sources told Yahoo! Sports. The stars and their agents with CAA continued on Tuesday to churn through numerous machinations and possibilities.
> 
> “Everything is still in play,” the source said.


----------



## Cris

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

He isn't leaving Cleveland if he is doing a one-hour special.


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



> Chris_Broussard Knicks gaining major ground in LeBron Sweepstakes. Bosh snub hurts Cavs, though they're still in hunt


I don't know if this is a good sign or not.


----------



## Vuchato

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

What's he gonna do for the rest of the hour? dance around in his new uniform?


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



Organized Chaos said:


> * LeBron, Wade and Bosh plan conference call on Wednesday*


If they were gonna be together they wouldn't have much need for a conversation like that...so maybe I'll take that back...who knows with this thing the pendulum shifts...


----------



## clien

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



Vuchato said:


> What's he gonna do for the rest of the hour? dance around in his new uniform?


no ****. what could they possibly do for an hour?


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



> TommyDeeTKB For those wondering, sources tell me lebron is giving ad revenue proceeds to local charity, vitamin water is a sponsor and it's in akron.


It's in Akron.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

He's probably gonna have a bunch of interviews and retrospectives and all that..and not announce anything until the last segment.


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision (In Akron) Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

It's probably going to be announced at the end of the special.


----------



## Vuchato

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision (In Akron) Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

according to tommydees sources anyway. I still don't trust the guy.


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision (In Akron) Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

The only time i've seen him wrong was the draft.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision (In Akron) Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

He's a smart guy...so he's probably just going to have media there and not have it at his Junior High school with fans or some ****, 'cause then he'd be giving it away that it's Cleveland. It'll probably be a bunch of interviews and retrospectives..then a press conference in the last segment.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision (In Akron) Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

So now there is a one hour special for his decision and he isn't milking it? That's a joke. I'll give it to him that he isn't the only one milking it. ESPN is loving it.


----------



## Dre

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision (In Akron) Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

Yeah I have to admit there's nothing more you could say but he is being an attention whore with this.

R-Star hasn't posted yet because he passed out in a vindictive rage...


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision (In Akron) Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



> PDcavsinsider The location of LeBron's announcement is not expected to be in one of the cities he's considering. Will keep the guessing going. 1 minute ago via web


http://twitter.com/PDcavsinsider/status/17918183768


----------



## 29380

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



> LeBron’s crew had some restrictions for ESPN as part of their arrangement.
> 
> * First, ESPN does not know what the decision will be and won’t know before hand. The location also has not been released.
> 
> * Secondly, ESPN is NOT allowed to sell advertising for the 1-hour Primetime event. Instead, LeBron’s marketing company – LRMR I suppose – can sell sponsorships with all proceeds going to the Boys and Girls Club of America.


http://www.fearthesword.com/2010/7/6/1555915/espn-had-to-agree-to-certain-terms


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

If I see a Jay-Z greatest hits commercial I'm gonna be like...:yes:...


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

I do think it's awesome that LeBron is using this like a hostage situation, holding the network hostage without them knowing what will happen. ESPN is his bitch. He will get you ratings, but on his terms only. 

Still an attention whore though.


----------



## FSH

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



Knicks4life said:


> http://www.fearthesword.com/2010/7/6/1555915/espn-had-to-agree-to-certain-terms


wow nice move by LeBron makes me see him as a better guy

The proceed from ad sales going to boys and girl club is what im talking about because it gonna be ALOT of money


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I do think it's awesome that LeBron is using this like a hostage situation, holding the network hostage without them knowing what will happen. ESPN is his bitch. He will get you ratings, but on his terms only.
> 
> Still an attention whore though.


But see you can't hate him too much because the funds are going to charity :laugh:

Jay-Z is his mentor for a reason...


----------



## TheDarkPrince

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

I just know for an hour long special, he better not just say he's staying in Cleveland.


----------



## FSH

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I do think it's awesome that LeBron is using this like a hostage situation, holding the network hostage without them knowing what will happen. ESPN is his bitch. He will get you ratings, but on his terms only.
> 
> Still an attention whore though.


Dude the money is going to charity if anything this is a great move by him to get Boys and Girl club a nice chuck of money


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



Dre™ said:


> But see you can't hate him too much because the funds are going to charity :laugh:


He isn't greedy, just loves attention. The attention doesn't go to charity. 

I just feel like hating on LeBron a bit. I don't think what he's done is that bad really, but I praise the guy so much during the year that I feel I need to rip into him a little.


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



FSH said:


> Dude the money is going to charity if anything this is a great move by him to get Boys and Girl club a nice chuck of money


You see what I'm saying :laugh:


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision (In Akron) Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



Dre™ said:


> Yeah I have to admit there's nothing more you could say but he is being an attention whore with this.
> 
> R-Star hasn't posted yet because he passed out in a vindictive rage...


Picking up my wife from the airport. I'm sure you already know what my view on an hour long special would be. 

If hes just "weighing his options", "most important decision of his life" yada yada yada, he sure as **** doesn't need an hour long show to diva it up even more than he already has. The guy is pathetic.


----------



## 29380

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



> PDcavsinsider Suddenly it is clear to me. LeBron has changed. A new website. Starting Twitter. This announcement. This isn't the guy I know.


He's got a NY State of Mind. :bsmile:


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

LeBron is milking this for all it's worth.


----------



## Ron

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

LOL, I will be winging my way back home when this abortion of a show airs.

Just as well. I might be tempted to actually watch this bull**** if I was able. Now I have to wait until my plane lands at 8:00 p.m. PST to find out what the rest of the world will know an hour earlier.

****, maybe I should change my flight. 

And I thought Shaqosaurus had a gigantic ego. LBJ makes ShatShiq look like Pollyana.


----------



## Cris

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



Ron said:


> LOL, I will be winging my way back home when this abortion of a show airs.
> 
> Just as well. I might be tempted to actually watch this bull**** if I was able. Now I have to wait until my plane lands at 8:00 p.m. PST to find out what the rest of the world will know an hour earlier.
> 
> ****, maybe I should change my flight.
> 
> And I thought Shaqosaurus had a gigantic ego. LBJ makes ShatShiq look like Pollyana.


If you're flying United, check out channel 9 on the audio. It's the ATC communication and the pilots ALWAYS talk about sports related things when something big is going on. A few years ago I was flying to the east coast while Ohio State and Mich. were playing. This was the year both teams were undefeated and the whole way they were giving updates and the score and time over audio. 

My friend was flying and "listened" to one of the lakers playoff games the same way recently.


----------



## Ron

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



Cris said:


> If you're flying United, check out channel 9 on the audio. It's the ATC communication and the pilots ALWAYS talk about sports related things when something big is going on. A few years ago I was flying to the east coast while Ohio State and Mich. were playing. This was the year both teams were undefeated and the whole way they were giving updates and the score and time over audio.
> 
> My friend was flying and "listened" to one of the lakers playoff games the same way recently.


Yes, actually I am flying United and I did listen to channel 9 on the way here yesterday...not always such a good idea, I had to listen to a tense back-and-forth between the co-pilot and the tower (on my plane) about what level we should be at as we approached...but hey, that's always the way it is when I fly into D.C.

Great point. I will be listening in for sure now.


----------



## Cris

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



Ron said:


> Yes, actually I am flying United and I did listen to channel 9 on the way here yesterday...not always such a good idea, I had to listen to a tense back-and-forth between the co-pilot and the tower (on my plane) about what level we should be at as we approached...but hey, that's always the way it is when I fly into D.C.
> 
> Great point. I will be listening in for sure now.


Haha, that would have me tuned in the whole way. Are you a bit of an aviation enthusiast?


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

Unprecedented.

And the Boys and Girls club is going to make a **** ton of money. Everyone is going to be watching this. Wonder if they'll announce it at the front of the hour or build up to it?


----------



## Ron

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

Big time.

I even took the ATC test a few years back, but since I broke out in a sweat just trying to separate the planes by paper and pencil, I knew the job wasn't for me. :bsmile:

I've also listened to ATC traffic (again, on a United flight) going into D.C. where the tower told the pilot to "go around" because there was a plane on our runway where we were to land. I told my family not to panic as we zoomed back up into the sky.

Sometimes, its a good idea to listen in.


----------



## Ron

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



futuristxen said:


> Unprecedented.
> 
> And the Boys and Girls club is going to make a **** ton of money. Everyone is going to be watching this. Wonder if they'll announce it at the front of the hour or build up to it?


I think they should have a wheel of fortune type of dial with all the teams on it.

LeBron spins it and it comes up "New York". Then he says...no.

Next spin, comes up Miami. He says, let me think about it, but meanwhile, lets see why Dove is the best soap you can choose... and after the commercial break, he spins it again.

You get the idea. How else are they gonna fill up the hour, anyway?


----------



## Kaas

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

I can't believe it, but I think I'll watch. I'll get a kick out of seeing how much this guy impresses himself. ****, I love to stroke my ego now and then, but this takes that to a whole new level. And people are calling Bosh an attention whore for tweeting how excited he is about free agency and talking about great days and having pictures with Wade and hinting about Lebron. This blows that **** out of the water.


----------



## Cris

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



Ron said:


> Big time.
> 
> I even took the ATC test a few years back, but since I broke out in a sweat just trying to separate the planes by paper and pencil, I knew the job wasn't for me. :bsmile:
> 
> I've also listened to ATC traffic (again, on a United flight) going into D.C. where the tower told the pilot to "go around" because there was a plane on our runway where we were to land. I told my family not to panic as we zoomed back up into the sky.
> 
> Sometimes, its a good idea to listen in.



That's awesome. I would love to get my pilots license as some point in my life. And I too am always glued into channel 9. I was actually involved in a go-around as well in Germany and the pilot said he was taking a too steep an angle to land safely. What kind of pilot does that? lol.


----------



## Ron

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



Cris said:


> That's awesome. I would love to get my pilots license as some point in my life. And I too am always glued into channel 9. I was actually involved in a go-around as well in Germany and the pilot said he was taking a too steep an angle to land safely. What kind of pilot does that? lol.


It's a good thing he recognized it, it happens more than you may think...that happened to me too, on my second go-around...I wish other airlines had ATC, all the other airlines I fly don't seem to carry it...

I wanted to get my pilot's license in my 20s too, but then I stupidly got married, stupidly had kids, stupidly bought a house...now I am too old and cannot afford it. LOL The advice here is do it now! Good luck to you.


----------



## bballlife

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*

I have to admit I am curious as to what they going to fill that hour with.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



Sir Patchwork said:


> He isn't greedy, just loves attention. The attention doesn't go to charity.


that's true and false. some attention is certainly going to charity since we all know where the money is going.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision (In Akron) Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



R-Star said:


> Picking up my wife from the airport. I'm sure you already know what my view on an hour long special would be.
> 
> If hes just "weighing his options", "most important decision of his life" yada yada yada, he sure as **** doesn't need an hour long show to diva it up even more than he already has. The guy is pathetic.


raising money for charity is pathetic.


----------



## futuristxen

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

American TV event of the summer?


----------



## Basel

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

He doesn't need an hour long ESPN special to raise money for charity. Just donate it yourself if you really care that much. Ridiculous that they're doing this.


----------



## Basel

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



futuristxen said:


> American TV event of the summer?


:laugh:

No.


----------



## futuristxen

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Basel said:


> :laugh:
> 
> No.


I think it may get more viewers than the All-star game, and the World Cup Final...at least American viewers.

For some strange reason this is the thing people care about right now. Some old lady came up to me the other day and I was like are you watching the world cup? And she was like, no...but what she wanted to know was about that Lebron James she keeps hearing about.


----------



## futuristxen

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Basel said:


> He doesn't need an hour long ESPN special to raise money for charity. Just donate it yourself if you really care that much. Ridiculous that they're doing this.


He's raising money for charity. That doesn't preclude him from donating money to charity, and I think he already does donate to this particular charity. I think it will raise more money than he could donate in such a small amount of time. The sponsorship deals for this are going to be pretty huge.

Not saying he's not also doing this to raise his own profile, but he is pretty much filling a desire by the public with a good deed.


----------



## someone

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

You can't ignore the king


----------



## Basel

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

I think the only reason they're doing the charity thing is to try and fool people into thinking this isn't all about just LeBron.


----------



## Jesukki

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

They should do this Oscar's style. Magic Johnson comes out and says and here are the nominees: Cleveland Cavaliers: his hometown team. Team with all stars like Mo Williams and Antwan Jamison. New Jersey Nets: Team with tall russian guy as a owner and they won amazing 12 games last year. Miami Heat: Team with no players but hey Miami weather is nice. Chicago Bulls: Team with Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah who doesn't like Lebron. New York Knicks: Team with knee injury bound to happen Amare Stoudamire and the greatest city in the world. Los Angeles Lakers. Pls lebron sign for minimum.


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Am I the only one who finds it funny that ESPN reporters need sources to know whats going on in there own company.


----------



## HB

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

B.S. stunt


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

In an interview with Mike & Mike Chris Broussard said that the top 3 team are the Cavs, Knicks, and Heat and that it is most likely that he will sign a 5 or 6 year deal not a 3 year one.


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

The Amare deal is starting to look real good right know.


----------



## Game3525

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

I really don't think Lebron is leaving, because really if he does, all he is doing is putting more pressure on himself. And he goes to New York after doing this and doesn't win, it will be worse then A-Rod.


----------



## RhettO

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

As much as I want him to join the Clippers, I think his decision to make a whole spectacle out of it means he's not leaving Cleveland. It should be hard enough for him to leave his home and break the hearts of everyone in the entire state. Doing it on national TV would be an even bigger slap in the face.

No way he leaves Cleveland now.


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Do you think he can win in Cleveland.?


----------



## ATLien

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



futuristxen said:


> I think it may get more viewers than the All-star game, and the World Cup Final...at least American viewers.
> 
> For some strange reason this is the thing people care about right now. Some old lady came up to me the other day and I was like are you watching the world cup? And she was like, no...but what she wanted to know was about that Lebron James she keeps hearing about.


The LeBron telecast would need to get more ratings than Game 1 of the NBA Finals, since some of the U.S. World Cup matches got higher ratings than Game 1 of the NBA Finals. I don't think it happens. You can just read about LeBron's decision on the internet, don't have to watch it on TV. That's what I'm doing.


----------



## Hyperion

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

I really hope he sits in a giant throne and sends out to clips the entire time.

"Hey, that was really nice huh? Well, let's see another highlight reel of my career. Enjoy."

"Let's take a closer look at the history of the franchises to which I may be signing. New York, you're up."

"Wow, that was really something wasn't it? I could really play for a city with so much history. Let's take a look at a newer team, but with quite a bit of history too. Let's see some Miami."


----------



## MLKG

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



ATLien said:


> The LeBron telecast would need to get more ratings than Game 1 of the NBA Finals, since some of the U.S. World Cup matches got higher ratings than Game 1 of the NBA Finals. I don't think it happens. You can just read about LeBron's decision on the internet, don't have to watch it on TV. That's what I'm doing.


There is no way I'm going to watch a special about where Lebron is signing.

Say what you want about his game, but you can never question his ego.


----------



## Tragedy

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Game3525 said:


> I really don't think Lebron is leaving, because really if he does, all he is doing is putting more pressure on himself. And he goes to New York after doing this and doesn't win, it will be worse then A-Rod.


Not really. We know Lebron with a bunch of bums went to the finals in 2007, and the team has been Good, despite not really making real improvements. 

With Lebron and Amare and Curry's expiring the knocks could put together a team that could win. The knocks have been bad for some time, so the improvement they'll make will be enough. 

Its not like A-Rod coming to the winningest team in history of e MLB.


----------



## Tragedy

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Hyperion said:


> I really hope he sits in a giant throne and sends out to clips the entire time.
> 
> "Hey, that was really nice huh? Well, let's see another highlight reel of my career. Enjoy."
> 
> "Let's take a closer look at the history of the franchises to which I may be signing. New York, you're up."
> 
> "Wow, that was really something wasn't it? I could really play for a city with so much history. Let's take a look at a newer team, but with quite a bit of history too. Let's see some Miami."


Lol


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Now ESPN is saying it's not in Ohio.


----------



## Luke

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

LeBron is such an attention whore, but I mean none of this should really come as a suprise to any of us here. Atleast he's donating the money to charity.


----------



## Reisedoggy

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Is LeBron trying to make us not like him?


----------



## RR 823

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



VanillaPrice said:


> LeBron is such an attention whore, but I mean none of this should really come as a suprise to any of us here. Atleast he's donating the money to charity.


He couldn't have donated the money without the show?


----------



## eddymac

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

This pretty much proves what I said earlier in this thread about Lebron milking this.


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

So ESPN sent people to the location but wont tell there reporters.


----------



## Hyperion

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



RR 823 said:


> He couldn't have donated the money without the show?


Kinda hard to get sponsors and advertisers to an event that doesn't happen. I like this idea. He has taken control of the situation, and ensured that this isn't sweeps time for ESPN but rather a great way to raise money for a good cause. He knows the entire NBA world has their eyes on James right now and is going to leverage that to raise potentially tens of millions for charity.

Think about it. An hour show contains about 18 minutes of commercials. That being said, he could easily sell the ad space for $500k per minute. (I just went with half of what it cost for the NBA Finals) That's $9million for a simple announcement


----------



## bballlife

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



ATLien said:


> The LeBron telecast would need to get more ratings than Game 1 of the NBA Finals, since some of the U.S. World Cup matches got higher ratings than Game 1 of the NBA Finals. I don't think it happens. You can just read about LeBron's decision on the internet, don't have to watch it on TV. That's what I'm doing.


Where are you getting this from? 

Every source I have seen has Game 1 ahead. Most have USA/England at a 7.3 and Game 1 at 10.4 in terms of the national rating.


----------



## O2K

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

with bosh and wade going to Miami I think lebron has no choice but to leave cleveland but I can't see him doing that on national television. Then again this is the same guy who yelled at his mom to sit down on national television so who knows. But if he stays in Cleveland nobody will feel bad for him if he never wins another ring. He could've left for greener pastures but decided to stay in the cleveland dwellings.


----------



## Floods

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

I'm thinking Knicks. The Cavs' options are dried up, they won't be able any better a team around LeBron if he returned than the one he's already been playing and losing with. I think the brand argument has some merit, so that hurts Miami's chances. He's not going to Chicago by himself, the talent mix doesn't suit his game at all. The Nets are possible, but the Knicks signing Stoudemire makes them a bit more appealing. I'd bet my avatar on New York being the place.


----------



## Floods

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



O2K said:


> with bosh and wade going to Miami I think lebron has no choice but to leave cleveland but I can't see him doing that on national television. Then again this is the same guy who yelled at his mom to sit down on national television so who knows. But if he stays in Cleveland nobody will feel bad for him if he never wins another ring. He could've left for greener pastures but decided to stay in the cleveland dwellings.


I'd be pretty pissed if this one hour special ended in him staying a Cav. But I'd laugh at him for making the same mistake Garnett did.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Hyperion said:


> I really hope he sits in a giant throne and sends out to clips the entire time.
> 
> "Hey, that was really nice huh? Well, let's see another highlight reel of my career. Enjoy."
> 
> "Let's take a closer look at the history of the franchises to which I may be signing. New York, you're up."
> 
> "Wow, that was really something wasn't it? I could really play for a city with so much history. Let's take a look at a newer team, but with quite a bit of history too. Let's see some Miami."


I would watch _that_ show. Unfortunately ESPN won't guarantee that we'll be entertained like this.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

I'm putting my money on the Knicks.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

I think that the big announcement is that he's staying and that Ray Allen is joining the Cavs. So long as it's a sign & trade with expirings headed back to Boston I'll be fine with the announcement. :bsmile:


----------



## O2K

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Floods said:


> I'd be pretty pissed if this one hour special ended in him staying a Cav. But I'd laugh at him for making the same mistake Garnett did.


That would be hilarious. Or if the announcement was that he will be making his announcement on his website soon. We are far away from the Jordan "I'm Back" days. These players have egos bigger than the size of Alaska


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision..Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



rocketeer said:


> that's true and false. some attention is certainly going to charity since we all know where the money is going.


No, the money is going to charity. The attention is going to LeBron, all of it. He is the hero for raising the money and that means more attention for him. It's not enough for his decision to be leaked and spread around like when any other big name free agent signs, he has to have a show on national television. Donating the money is admirable, but he *loves* attention.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Jesus christ, people, get a grip. If I were a 25 year old about to sign my name to a 6/130 contract and ESPN offered me my own special not only would I be doing it, I'd use it as an opportunity to sniff coke off of Melyssa Ford's ass on national TV.


----------



## ATLien

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



bballlife said:


> Where are you getting this from?
> 
> Every source I have seen has Game 1 ahead. Most have USA/England at a 7.3 and Game 1 at 10.4 in terms of the national rating.


I was combining the TV audiences for ESPN as well as Univision, it makes it more than the Game 1 audience

USA/Ghana was watched by either 17 or 19 million in the U.S. which I think is more than Game 1, but might be less than Game 6/7


----------



## Adam

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

They should do a reverse lottery and draft where LeBron sits in the warroom and sends his pick out to Stern. The GM runs up to the stage wearing a tacky suit and shakes the commish's hand and then LeBron interviews him in the green room asking what it means to have been selected.


----------



## BlackNRed

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

If the King comes to Miami with Flash and CB4 I might cream my pants. If he doesn't I'll still be happy cause we got Wade resigned(Been sweating that one awhile) and now Bosh aboard, who is top 10 player imo.


----------



## BlackNRed

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Wade and Bosh on ESPN right now


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



> ESPN sent release about "The Decision." Jim Gray will do 1st interview w/LBJ.





> ESPN release says Wilbon also will have "extensive interview" with LBJ. Jon Barry and Stuart Scott also involved in the show.


http://twitter.com/HowardBeckNYT


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision (In Akron) Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



rocketeer said:


> raising money for charity is pathetic.


What the hell else is he going to do? Say the money goes to him?

The charity stuff is nice and all, but lets not act like any other player in the NBA would try to pocket the money. The charity money is worth its weight in publicity gold.

Again, pull your head out of your ass.


----------



## Hyperion

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Man if I were to produce this one hour extravaganza, it would be the epitome of self aggrandizement and you'd all love LBJ for it.

First, I'd have his start off sitting in a throne, wearing a pair of sunglasses indoors with one of his buddies sitting next to him on the floor panting like a dog. Lebron would talk about the upcoming years and what he's looking for in his next team and say, "The support of the city is very important." or something incredibly cliche like that. Then he'd turn to his friend and say, "Isn't that right (insert James' friend/agent/manager's name)?" "Oh yes Lebron, 100% accurate. Hit the nail on the head!" Then Lebron would reach into his pocket and pull out a roll of hundreds rubberbanded together and toss it to the floor in front of his friend and say, "That's a good boy."

The he'd get serious and the camera would zoom to only a portrait shot. He takes off his sunglasses and says, "I know a lot of you are saying that I am an egomaniac and completely self centered and the only reason I'm on TV is because I can dunk a basketball, and it's true. So without further adieu, here's a video of me dunking the basketball." [five minute clip of Lebron dunking the ball alone on a court multiple times]


Man, I would put on the greatest spectacle ever!


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



E.H. Munro said:


> Jesus christ, people, get a grip. If I were a 25 year old about to sign my name to a 6/130 contract and ESPN offered me my own special not only would I be doing it, I'd use it as an opportunity to sniff coke off of Melyssa Ford's ass on national TV.


LeBron planned to do this for months. I think they pitched it to ESPN, not vice versa. Infact he had plans to make a film about himself going through the free agency process. 

LeBron is one of my favorite players, and I really don't give a damn what he does off the court because I don't know him, but one thing I do know is he is an attention-whore.


----------



## MarioChalmers

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision (In Akron) Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



rocketeer said:


> raising money for charity is pathetic.


Zoom out. Take what you said out of context and think about the kind of person you are.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Update; Sources: LeBron to announce decision (In Akron) Thursday 9ET on ESPN*



gian said:


> Zoom out. Take what you said out of context and think about the kind of person you are.


You realize that he was being sarcastic, right? Or is that the "context" you're talking about.


----------



## 29380

*Don't know how real this is*



> JaredDudley619 Breaking News!!! My sources tell me Lebron will announce that he will be goin to the NY KNICKS tomorrow on ESPN.. This is serious.. WOW!!!!


http://twitter.com/JaredDudley619/status/17967607292


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Don't know how real this is*

"My sources tell me"

lol...everyone has sources now. What a great offseason.


----------



## 29380

*Re: Don't know how real this is*

I doubt a player would joke about this but you never know.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Don't know how real this is*



Knicks4life said:


> I doubt a player would joke about this but you never know.


Why would they not? I'd have fun with it, knowing every fan in Miami, Cleveland, Chicago, New York, etc. will go crazy over every little update.


----------



## 29380

*Re: Don't know how real this is*

His sources could be Amare.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: Don't know how real this is*

Everyone has sources.


----------



## bballlife

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Although I know very little about marketing, I assume his marking firm, LRMR, will gain something through all of this.


----------



## 29380

*Re: Don't know how real this is*



> FisolaNYDN Knicks hearing it's probably Cleveland but they will not give up the fight


http://twitter.com/FisolaNYDN/status/17969398412


----------



## GNG

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

LOL, here's my LeBron impression:

*LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!*




























for charity...​


----------



## Tooeasy

*Re: Don't know how real this is*

what I find funny is who, outside of lebron that is, seriously knows where hes going? and on top of that, who that knows would actually spill anything to anybody? My "sources" lead me to believe that none of these people know jack **** and are just trying to get hits on their website/attention/a rise out of people.


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/the-knicks-fix-1.812055/lebron-will-make-announcement-in-greenwich-ct-1.2086121

It's in Greenwich.


----------



## RR 823

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

ahh, I pretty much live there. The 203 is the place to be.


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

35 miles from NYC.


----------



## RR 823

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



> FisolaNYDN: Can't confirm this but a Knicks source claims the location may be Allan Houston's house. Wow
> 3 minutes ago via mobile web


...


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



> RicBucher Rumors of NYK having legit shot at LeBron or him going to Mia seem like an attempt by LRMR to create suspense


He could be playing all of us.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

As long as he sniffs coke off Melyssa Ford's ass on national TV I'll be satisfied.


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



> FisolaNYDN Houston's mansion is big enough to stage event but now there is word it could be at Boys n Girls Club in Greenwich


http://twitter.com/FisolaNYDN/status/17972729516


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



> AdamZagoria #Knicks source on LeBron--`We`re in play. We got a chance.`


Things are looking to good I think he's trying to play Knick fans.


----------



## Lynx

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



> Breaking News!!! My sources tell me Lebron will announce that he will be goin to the NY KNICKS tomorrow on ESPN.. This is serious.. WOW!!!!


....



> That's what I'm hearing.. I don't care where he goes lol.. I personally thought he would stay in Cleveland.


http://twitter.com/JaredDudley619


----------



## Adam

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Jared Dudley probably doesn't even have an agent let alone sources.


----------



## Lynx

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



> Newsday reporting Lebron James is in Greenwich , Ct. Is that good news for the Knicks or is he just in town for Carmelo's wedding?


Linda Cohn via twitter.


----------



## Adam

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

^It should be added that Linda Cohn is a huge Knicks fan.


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



> JonRothstein Just received a text from a member in the #Bulls front office who believes LeBron will wind up w the #Knicks...Chicago now pushing 4 Boozer


http://twitter.com/JonRothstein/status/17974122987


----------



## Lynx

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Adam said:


> ^It should be added that Linda Cohn is a huge Knicks fan.


..and also a Mets fan too. lol - I think she roots for Giants in NFL.


----------



## HKF

*Re: Don't know how real this is*

Jared Dudley is a notorious prankster. I doubt he has any sources.


----------



## 29380

*Bulls believes LeBron will be a Knick*



> JonRothstein Just received a text from a member in the #Bulls front office who believes LeBron will wind up w the #Knicks...Chicago now pushing 4 Boozer


I'll believe it when I see it.


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Jay-z has a house in Greenwich.


----------



## GNG

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

If this stays a secret until the actual reveal, it's going to be a masterful job by LeBron's camp.


----------



## Hyperion

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Cinco de Mayo said:


> If this stays a secret until the actual reveal, it's going to be a masterful job by LeBron's camp.


That's why each of them needs to leak a different city. So everyone has a "reliable" source telling them something.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Bulls believes LeBron will be a Knick*



Knicks4life said:


> Jay-z has a house in Greenwich.





Knicks4life said:


> I'll believe it when I see it.


Yeah. What you said!


----------



## Dre

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Knicks4life said:


> http://twitter.com/HowardBeckNYT


Why does he need more than one interview :uhoh:


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



> richarddeitsch The LeBron show will be done from Bristol. LeBron will be on camera via satellite. Jim Gray will be with LeBron.


http://twitter.com/richarddeitsch/status/17977462254


----------



## Tooeasy

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

well one ineresting aspect about all this, is if lebron signs with another team we will get to see just how good(abysmal) that supporting cast of his was.


----------



## Dre

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

I really want to see the moment of selection, what his rationale for leaving Cleveland is if he does, and what the pros and cons of each team were in his opinion.

How's it gonna happen..do they have like a predetermined interview that leads up to.."well OK, where are you gonna go?"...can't wait to watch. I won't be this excited to watch something on TV until opening night.


----------



## Game3525

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Jim Gray is still alive?


----------



## Tooeasy

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Dre™ said:


> I really want to see the moment of selection, what his rationale for leaving Cleveland is if he does, and what the pros and cons of each team were in his opinion.
> 
> How's it gonna happen..do they have like a predetermined interview that leads up to.."well OK, where are you gonna go?"...can't wait to watch. I won't be this excited to watch something on TV until opening night.


interesting take on it. I find it funny that so many times people are left with all these unanswered questions that revolve around decisions such as this, and we have the chance to watch and hear the rationale behind everything. Obviously theres ulterior motive involved in this spectacle, but the charity thing is cool and its going to give people closure whether it be cavs fans that wanna know why he is choosing to leave them heartbroken, or fans of all the other potential destinations that wanna know why they werent good enough.


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Maybe the story about Allan Houston house is true since it's via satellite.


----------



## Adam

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Game3525 said:


> Jim Gray is still alive?


I guess he crawled out of Kobe's ass.


----------



## mjm1

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Knicks4life said:


> Jay-z has a house in Greenwich.


good...considering Jay-Z is a NETS minority owner and is trying to convince him to play for us.


----------



## Dre

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Knicks4life said:


> Maybe the story about Allan Houston house is true since it's via satellite.


That's stupid..if it's gonna be at a non neutral place it'd be in Cleveland. 

If he tells the ESPN camera crew to come to Allan Houston's house, they gonna be like ***** please we're showing poker now...


----------



## Tooeasy

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Knicks4life said:


> Maybe the story about Allan Houston house is true since it's via satellite.


doubt it. brick houses make it hard to transmit satellite signals.


----------



## Dre

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Jay-Z is on tour in London..not to say he couldn't touch down for the night..but naw. Especially since Jay doesn't want anyone knowing what his house looks like.

It'll probably be some nice little rented house, him and Gray in a small room...or on a balcony or something...


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



mjm1 said:


> good...considering Jay-Z is a NETS minority owner and is trying to convince him to play for us.


Jay-z is on tour even though he could let Lebron use it.


----------



## Seuss

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

If I end up watching this stupid show, he better not end up re-signing with Cleveland. He better make this at least somewhat of a surprise announcement.


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

ESPN 1050 says ESPN rented out the Boys and Girls Club in Greenwich.


----------



## Dre

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

A lot of people would be surprised to see him back in Cleveland though. 

His people are doing a good job of manufacturing this and building suspense.

And per all this "which Boys and Girls club"..it's probably going to be the program in general, not a specific branch.


----------



## Basel

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Watch him go to the Clippers.


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



> Ian_OConnor Very smart NBA exec just said, "#LeBron knew Bosh wouldnt come, but played that out publicly so now he has excuse to leave... #Knicks


http://twitter.com/Ian_OConnor/status/17980286540


----------



## Dre

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Oh yeah, and once and for all, with him actually being the last of the all-stars to agree somewhere, we can stop the "the sun won't rise until LeBron signs" madness..Everybody got their major business done around him, apology accepted.


----------



## Game3525

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Dre™ said:


> Oh yeah, and once and for all, with him actually being the last of the all-stars to agree somewhere, *we can stop the "the sun won't rise until LeBron signs" *madness..Everybody got their major business done around him, apology accepted.


Yup.


----------



## CbobbyB

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

LeBron to NY? Guess he doesn't want to win. If he's gonna leave, make it easy and go to Chicago.


----------



## Hyperion

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Man, if he leaves the Cavs, this stunt is the equivalent to bringing your girlfriend to a nice restaurant to dump her so she can't make a scene.


----------



## Hyperion

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



CbobbyB said:


> LeBron to NY? Guess he doesn't want to win. If he's gonna leave, make it easy and go to Chicago.


Chicago sucks, will suck and has always sucked (subtracting the Jordan era)


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



> An ESPN executive says LeBron James will announce his future NBA plans within the first 10 minutes of Thursday night’s hourlong broadcast.
> 
> ESPN says Gray and James will be in one location. A person familiar with the plans, however, tells The Associated Press the interview will take place at the Boys & Girls Club of Greenwich, Conn.
> 
> The broadcast also will include a long-form interview with ESPN personality Mike Wilbon and others via satellite from ESPN’s studios in Bristol, Conn.
> 
> http://www.deseretnews.com/mobile/article/700046268/ESPN-LeBron-James-to-announce-plans-at-top-of-show.html


If it's getting release that quickly he must be staying.


----------



## Dre

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

That's dope though, because we're gonna get 30+ minutes of explanation. 

It won't be some copout highlight show then he puts a hat on in the last segment..

You know how Lebron could've totally flipped this into goodwill though..if he announced earlier in the day he was staying with Cleveland, and then he should've had Rick Reilly do that "hometown hero" ESPN show..he still could've had his moment in the sun with people on his balls, and he still could've donated proceeds to charity. After the way last season ended he'd have another good 2 years of goodwill just off of that.

Now either way he's gonna have a couple fanbases hating him.


----------



## ajax25

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

im gonna laugh when he says im outta here to cleveland and they go crazy on him like Tennessee did to Lane Kiffin haha


----------



## jokeaward

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*









ESPN Page 2


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



> DeJuan45 Lebron to the Knicks watch!!!!! Shhhhhhhhhh!





> RealJayWilliams I am going to say this. I just heard from a little bird in his camp, King James and Spike Lee will be seeing a lot of each other next yr.





> CV31 I'm just saying... LeBron will not be going to Chicago or Miami. I'm just saying, word on the streets. LOL. NY vs. NJ vs. CLE. I know where.


Player seem to think he's going to the Knicks, the more people I hear say Knicks the less i believe it.


----------



## Dre

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

I don't think any of them know anything. Like seriously none of them hold any weight. I could see if it was Shaq or somebody...


----------



## O2K

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Hyperion said:


> Chicago sucks, will suck and has always sucked (subtracting the Jordan era)


versus the other what? 27 teams that have less championships. Every team sucks minus their championship years. some teams suck better than others. NY sucks even harder. So does miami. So does NJ. Every team involved with the Lebron sweepstakes suck. But the Bulls are the best of the sucking teams.


----------



## O2K

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Bucher on ESPN Radio 1000 just now. He is saying that the latest that he's hearing from the rumor mill is that LBJ is deciding between the Heat and Bulls, but he doesn't believe there is a decision to still to be made and that he is still going back to Cleveland.


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



> vegaswatch
> 
> Frontrunners are now CLE (~33%), NYK (~30%), MIA (~23%). http://bit.ly/dCikCm


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



> BonnieB_ESPN Heard the same thing...RT @Seth_Everett: A buddy saw #LeBron James at Sparks in NYC w Amare Stoudamire & Allan Houston.


http://twitter.com/BonnieB_ESPN/status/17987644705


----------



## RR 823

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

LBJ should be at his basketball camp in Ohio right now.


----------



## Zei_Zao_LS

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

According to Jared Dudley's Twitter.



> Breaking News!!! My sources tell me Lebron will announce that he will be goin to the NY KNICKS tomorrow on ESPN.. This is serious.. WOW!!!!


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

LeBron is a genius. People can "refuse" to watch this but they will still be atleast flipping back and forth to see what happens. There hasn't ever been an NBA event as big as this after the draft, ever. 

The guy loves attention, but he sure knows how to create a buzz.


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



RR 823 said:


> LBJ should be at his basketball camp in Ohio right now.


http://twitter.com/PDcavsinsider/status/17973188077

Left 4 hours ago.


----------



## Dre

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Sir Patchwork said:


> LeBron is a genius. People can "refuse" to watch this but they will still be atleast flipping back and forth to see what happens. There hasn't ever been an NBA event as big as this after the draft, ever.
> 
> The guy loves attention, but he sure knows how to create a buzz.


Jay-Z is his mentor...


----------



## King Joseus

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

On PTI earlier, Reali said he'd be saying which team he chose in the first ten minutes.


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

The Knicks are more scared of Pat Riley then they are of Cleveland.


----------



## MLKG

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Dream scenario for how this plays out:

Lebron announces he is staying in Cleveland. Dan Gilbert presents him with a contract and Lebron signs in a big cartoonish fashion. This is followed by smiles and extended handshaking while we get reaction shots of Cleveland fans celebrating. After 15-20 seconds, Gilbert turns away and Lebron spins him back around and gives him a stunner.

As Cleveland fans watch in horror, Lebron holds the contract up to the camera to reveal there is no signature. In a hoarse, menacing voice he declares "Cleveland.... I NEVER SIGNED". 

Lebron is then presented with a new contract by Mikhail Prokhorov and signs it for real. The two are seen getting into a limo together and Lebron changes his twitter name to "CzarJames".


----------



## Kaas

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Hyperion has been gold in this thread.


----------



## Pay Ton

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



MLKG said:


> Dream scenario for how this plays out:
> 
> Lebron announces he is staying in Cleveland. Dan Gilbert presents him with a contract and Lebron signs in a big cartoonish fashion. This is followed by smiles and extended handshaking while we get reaction shots of Cleveland fans celebrating. After 15-20 seconds, Gilbert turns away and Lebron spins him back around and gives him a stunner.
> 
> As Cleveland fans watch in horror, Lebron holds the contract up to the camera to reveal there is no signature. In a hoarse, menacing voice he declares "Cleveland.... I NEVER SIGNED".
> 
> Lebron is then presented with a new contract by Mikhail Prokhorov and signs it for real. The two are seen getting into a limo together and Lebron changes his twitter name to "CzarJames".


That would be spectacular.


----------



## Cris

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



King Joseus said:


> On PTI earlier, Reali said he'd be saying which team he chose in the first ten minutes.


I am surprised it doesn't go to the 59th minute and then he looks into the camera and says.... "TO BE CONTINUED, SUCKERS!"


----------



## Dornado

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

why not include Brett Favre and make it a game show


----------



## HB

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

So they are going to tell his life story or what? This guy hasn't even won a championship and ESPN is basically slobbering all over him. I'll get my info from twitter, this is a waste of time.


----------



## Knick Killer

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



HB said:


> So they are going to tell his life story or what? This guy hasn't even won a championship and ESPN is basically slobbering all over him. I'll get my info from twitter, this is a waste of time.


I bet your still going to watch it tomorrow. And honestly, he's obviously staying in Cleveland. He wouldn't make his decision in Cleveland and say hes going somewhere else. He wouldn't make it out of the building alive. This was all just a huge waste of our time talking and arguing over where he's going. I'm still going to tune in tomorrow though, I could be wrong.


----------



## King Joseus

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Knick_Killer31 said:


> I bet your still going to watch it tomorrow. And honestly, he's obviously staying in Cleveland. He wouldn't make his decision in Cleveland and say hes going somewhere else. He wouldn't make it out of the building alive. This was all just a huge waste of our time talking and arguing over where he's going. I'm still going to tune in tomorrow though, I could be wrong.


It'll be in Greenwich, CT.


----------



## HB

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Knick_Killer31 said:


> I bet your still going to watch it tomorrow. And honestly, he's obviously staying in Cleveland. He wouldn't make his decision in Cleveland and say hes going somewhere else. He wouldn't make it out of the building alive. This was all just a huge waste of our time talking and arguing over where he's going. I'm still going to tune in tomorrow though, I could be wrong.


Actually I'll be at work...definitely not watching.


----------



## Dre

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Hey he's in Greenwich you know what that means...Vince might make a stop through proposal...


----------



## King Joseus

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Dre™ said:


> Hey he's in Greenwich you know what that means...Vince might make a stop through proposal...


That's why nobody's been able to figure out where he's going!


----------



## MemphisX

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Man, I hope he goes to NY. Simply to have the NBA hyped up all freaking summer. If this is a taste of what can happen if he goes to NY...give me more please!


----------



## Tragedy

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



MemphisX said:


> Man, I hope he goes to NY. Simply to have the NBA hyped up all freaking summer. If this is a taste of what can happen if he goes to NY...give me more please!


Not gonna happen. 


I have a feeling he stays in Cleveland or goes to Chicago now.


----------



## Dre

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

For real though who wants to concede that all this attention he's seeking is infinitely raising demand for nothing but finals appearances and championships for the next 5 years?


----------



## Seanzie

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Here's what happens:

Within the first ten minutes: after some fluff interviews, LeBron shouts out his homeboys, then announces he's staying in Cleveland. Huge reaction. Mike Tirico asks "Why'd you choose Cleveland?" LeBron reacts calmly, "I've got someone coming with me." The next 30 minutes are spent wondering who exactly this is. Lotta fluff interviewing. Suddenly, cue nWo music, and out come Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. LeBron throws down his Cleveland jersey as the crowd jeers and begin to throw trash on the stage. LeBron dons a #6 Miami Heat jersey as he, Bosh, and Wade celebrate the dominance to come.


----------



## Dre

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Seanzie said:


> Here's what happens:
> 
> Within the first ten minutes: after some fluff interviews, LeBron shouts out his homeboys, then announces he's staying in Cleveland. Huge reaction. Mike Tirico asks "Why'd you choose Cleveland?" LeBron reacts calmly, "I've got someone coming with me."


The next 30 minutes are spent wondering who these people are...Lebron keeps mum until the final segment...

Byron Scott comes out:

You know Lebron..it's going to be wonderful coaching you..you are the premier athlete of our generation...I'm just upset it's not going to be as the head coach...

Jerry Lawler out of nowhere on commentary: What is he talking about??

*cue Yung Joc - It's going down with Pat Riley, Bosh and Wade coming out like :baseldance: in Cavs Jerseys*

Pat Riley: You know Mickey? There's a thing or two you need to learn about me...I'm all about winning...but more than that...winning with a bang!!

*Riley proceeds to explain how he and Cleveland management were in cahoots since they banished Danny Ferry, and he signed Wade and Bosh only to double sign and trade them for Antawn Jamison, Mo Williams, and Anderson Varejao*

*Titantron cuts to scene of Rick Ross and goons making Dan Gilbert sign off with guns drawn*

Riley: And in case you're thinking this is some kind of circumvention of the rules..let me have someone explain it to you..

*David Stern comes out to the Corporation music*

Stern: The league needs a balance..and dammnit..I'm the seesaw...and just so you know, I bought out Cleveland from under Gilbert's hands. This is my team, and what I say goes. I make the rules. We're coming for you Kobe.

*The sextuplet all circles the Boys and Girls club hands risen as the NBA logo pops up*

:yes:


----------



## 29380

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



> Schmeelk Source in Greenwich tells me LeBron shooting his show tomorrow at a rented house "two doors down" from Allan Houston.


http://twitter.com/Schmeelk/status/17998462392


----------



## Adam

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Allan Houston bought a house in Connecticut with the money he stole from New York?


----------



## Damian Necronamous

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

If I spend an hour waiting for somebody to tell me he's going to Cleveland, Ohio, I am going to shoot something.

**** this a-hole for making this an even bigger spectacle than it already is.

Also, if he goes to Miami, the NBA almost just becomes stupid. Yeah, I know, I'm a Lakers fan. I just want to see my team win again. But come on, where's the competition in fielding together 2 of the 3 best players in the league and giving them Chris Bosh as well?

As a fan of the NBA, I love Wade and Bosh in Miami. I love it. However, I hate LeBron, Wade and Bosh in Miami. It would be cool to watch them rail teams for the first 20-30 games of the season. But when they get to the playoffs and start sweeping teams like Boston and Orlando, people will realize it's just stupid.

Yeah, LeBron, you could win with Wade and Bosh. A HS kid could also beat up a 5th grader pretty easily. But where's the fun in that? 

Go to New York, Chicago or New Jersey and try to win so that you have a real sense of accomplishment. Those teams are all more than good enough to compete with you on board.

After all, if that team wins in Miami, it's really no big deal. They were expected to win. Winning is winning? Eh, maybe. But it'd sure be a hell of a lot less exciting and suspenseful.


----------



## Dre

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Like I've said before...the Heat aren't some automatic steamroller even with the big 3. They still have areas that need filling, specifically in the post and with the 3 point shooting.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

2 things...
1) How much of a d-bag is LeBron if he goes on national TV to tell Cavs' fans he's leaving?
2) How much of a d-bag is LeBron if he goes on national TV to tell everyone he's staying in Cleveland?

Answer to both: A big ****ing d-bag.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Dre™ said:


> Like I've said before...the Heat aren't some automatic steamroller even with the big 3. They still have areas that need filling, specifically in the post and with the 3 point shooting.


Dude. Role players will come in packs to play for this team for the veteran's minimum.

I'd say, barring injury, it'd be a pretty darn near sure thing.

The NBA would be AWESOME with LeBron/Amare in NY, Wade/Bosh+extras in MIA, Rose/Boozer/Noah+extras in CHI, Boston, Orlando, LAL and an improved Dallas team.


----------



## lakeshows

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Damian Necronamous said:


> If I spend an hour waiting for somebody to tell me he's going to Cleveland, Ohio, I am going to shoot something.
> 
> **** this a-hole for making this an even bigger spectacle than it already is.
> 
> Also, if he goes to Miami, the NBA almost just becomes stupid. Yeah, I know, I'm a Lakers fan. I just want to see my team win again. But come on, where's the competition in fielding together 2 of the 3 best players in the league and giving them Chris Bosh as well?
> 
> As a fan of the NBA, I love Wade and Bosh in Miami. I love it. However, I hate LeBron, Wade and Bosh in Miami. It would be cool to watch them rail teams for the first 20-30 games of the season. But when they get to the playoffs and start sweeping teams like Boston and Orlando, people will realize it's just stupid.
> 
> Yeah, LeBron, you could win with Wade and Bosh. A HS kid could also beat up a 5th grader pretty easily. But where's the fun in that?
> 
> Go to New York, Chicago or New Jersey and try to win so that you have a real sense of accomplishment. Those teams are all more than good enough to compete with you on board.
> 
> After all, if that team wins in Miami, it's really no big deal. They were expected to win. Winning is winning? Eh, maybe. But it'd sure be a hell of a lot less exciting and suspenseful.


Yet Kobe can play on the most stacked team in the league and it's all right? So stacked that he can go 6-24 in Game 7 of the Finals and it's still OK.

I love how ALL Kobe fans have to hate on Lebron like they are jealous or something. Another reason to hate on LA.


----------



## Wade County

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Lakers fans should be the LAST to judge when it comes to a potential Big 3. 

You had Kobe and Shaq, you had the Kobe Shaq Payton Malone (no title though), and you have Kobe, Pau, Bynum, Odom, Artest...and like, 17 titles...if the Heat get the big 3 and score 4 or 5 titles we'll still be trailing you by double digits.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*






Hulk Hogan = LeBron James

Kevin Nash = Dwyane Wade
Scott Hall = Chris Bosh

Macho Man = Cleveland


----------



## Dre

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Damian Necronamous said:


> Dude. Role players will come in packs to play for this team for the veteran's minimum.
> 
> I'd say, barring injury, it'd be a pretty darn near sure thing.
> 
> The NBA would be AWESOME with LeBron/Amare in NY, Wade/Bosh+extras in MIA, Rose/Boozer/Noah+extras in CHI, Boston, Orlando, LAL and an improved Dallas team.


No they won't..there's plenty other contenders out there that would pay the average roleplayer (a Matt Barnes) 5 times the minimum.

I don't know where everyone has this fantasy that every player over 33 that's not an all-star is some desperate ring chaser..how many big time minimum signings have there been in history? If you can find at least 5 that have been starters or 6th men I'll wear whatever avatar you want.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*


----------



## goodfoot

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

I think LEbron is going to sign a 1 year deal so he can have this whole bonanza again next year.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*


----------



## Ballscientist

*Newsday: LeBron has decided to join the Heat*

How good is Heat?

Multiple sources are telling Newsday that LeBron James has decided to join Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh in Miami. The new Big Three is here.


----------



## Ron

*Re: Newsday: LeBron has decided to join the Heat*

Link?


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Newsday: LeBron has decided to join the Heat*

It's from twitter. But it's on front page of realgm.



> Multiple sources are telling Newsday that LeBron James has decided to join Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh in Miami. The new Big Three is here.


alanhahn


:jawdrop: if true.


----------



## Cris

*Re: Newsday: LeBron has decided to join the Heat*

Eh, I'll believe it when I hear it out of his mouth.


----------



## seifer0406

*Re: Newsday: LeBron has decided to join the Heat*

This must be the best day in Miami Heat history.


----------



## Ron

*Re: Newsday: LeBron has decided to join the Heat*

*"After more than two years of planning and preparing, of salary dumping and cap-carving trades and wishful thinking, the Knicks may well find out that it was still not enough to land LeBron James.

According to multiple NBA sources, the two-time MVP Thursday night is expected to choose the Heat, where he would join fellow All-Stars Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. The two Wednesday announced their..."*

That's all I could download from their website, it requires a subscription to get the full story and I don't see the point, this is all speculation at this point anyway...

Newsday is a rag that has been putting bull**** out their for five days. "Mulitiple NBA sources" my ass. They can all be from the Timberwolves, for all we know.

Branded speculation at this point.


----------



## Dissonance

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Yeah, good idea to merge. Nothing concrete.


----------



## Wade County

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

If true - I think this has been the best day of my life...


----------



## Ron

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



MB30 said:


> If true - I think this has been the best day of my life...


:lol:

Don't you have a girlfriend?

Come on now, let's get a little perspective.


----------



## Wade County

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

I have a girlfriend, yep :laugh:

We'll call it a Top 5 moment if true then.


----------



## Ron

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Good. 

Back to the point of discussion...

I think there may be a problem here. How can LeBron announce he is going to Miami when this deal cannot be done at this point in time?

Toronto, as far as I know, is still pissed at Bosh for the way he has conducted himself. If they refuse to play this deal, then he is out of the picture...if LeBron announces Miami tomorrow night, the only thing for sure we know is that he will play with Wade and then Toronto has to do an S&T with Miami for Bosh.

hmmmmmmmmm


----------



## Wade County

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Or Wade and Bosh don't take maxes and allow Bron to sign also.


----------



## myst

*Re: Newsday: LeBron has decided to join the Heat*



seifer0406 said:


> This must be the best day in Miami Heat history.


This would be the best day in pretty much any teams history!


----------



## Ron

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



MB30 said:


> Or Wade and Bosh don't take maxes and allow Bron to sign also.


No way.

These guys will NOT sign for less money. You can take that to the bank.

Verbal commitments also don't mean anything. If they shrink away from these commitments after they find out they can't sign for the max they will really look stupid. And so will their documentary, which won't see the light of day if they do that.

This could get ugly...which is why I don't think LeBron is going to Miami.


----------



## Ron

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

But I sure would like to see it...

Imagine a finals with Kobe, Gasol, Artest, and Odom and James, Wade, and Bosh.

Freaking awesome! :bsmile:


----------



## Dre

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

:laugh: 

I feel the jitters all the way in DC


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

If Wade signed last couldn't all three sign for the max?


----------



## Dre

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

I made a thread about that awhile back, and while I can't recall the technical aspect of it, the short answer is no.


----------



## Ron

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

:laugh:

Technically, maybe so...but the league has to approve the deal and they wouldn't becuase maybe the Heat is exposing a loophole in the CBA...besides, I think the CBA is a pretty thorough document and without reviewing it I would imagine this has been covered.

On top of everything else, their cap would be WAYYYYY OVERRR and the luxury tax would probably wipe out any possible profits for next year.


----------



## myst

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Sir Patchwork said:


> If Wade signed last couldn't all three sign for the max?


Wade has to sign first actually. It's complicated cap stuff.


----------



## Lynx

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



> Sources with knowledge of the situation indeed saying LeBron will join Wade and Bosh in Miami, barring a late change of heart.


http://twitter.com/Chris_Broussard

Maybe, LeBron will pull a Boozer just at the last minute. Who knows!


----------



## Ron

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Jesus, if this is true, the Knicks sure got ****ed again.

$100 million for a PF who averages 6.6 rebounds a game. Great signing. Jesus.


----------



## Lynx

*re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

If LeBron indeed goes to Miami, I can't see why Pat Riley doesn't coach them.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Damian Necronamous said:


> If I spend an hour waiting for somebody to tell me he's going to Cleveland, Ohio, I am going to shoot something.
> 
> **** this a-hole for making this an even bigger spectacle than it already is.
> 
> Also, if he goes to Miami, the NBA almost just becomes stupid. Yeah, I know, I'm a Lakers fan. I just want to see my team win again. But come on, where's the competition in fielding together 2 of the 3 best players in the league and giving them Chris Bosh as well?
> 
> As a fan of the NBA, I love Wade and Bosh in Miami. I love it. However, I hate LeBron, Wade and Bosh in Miami. It would be cool to watch them rail teams for the first 20-30 games of the season. But when they get to the playoffs and start sweeping teams like Boston and Orlando, people will realize it's just stupid.
> 
> Yeah, LeBron, you could win with Wade and Bosh. A HS kid could also beat up a 5th grader pretty easily. But where's the fun in that?
> 
> Go to New York, Chicago or New Jersey and try to win so that you have a real sense of accomplishment. Those teams are all more than good enough to compete with you on board.
> 
> After all, if that team wins in Miami, it's really no big deal. They were expected to win. Winning is winning? Eh, maybe. But it'd sure be a hell of a lot less exciting and suspenseful.


LA still has Kobe, Gasol, Artest, Odom...and Bynum when healthy.

They may not have the names Lebron and Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh, but they'll have a year of chemistry under their belt, and think about it, if LA beats that trio, Kobe instantly vaults into the top 5 all time IMO, and if LA gets to the finals against that trio and loses? Well the trio was supposed to win.


It's huge win, and smaller loss.


----------



## lakeshows

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Ron said:


> Good.
> 
> Back to the point of discussion...
> 
> I think there may be a problem here. How can LeBron announce he is going to Miami when this deal cannot be done at this point in time?
> 
> Toronto, as far as I know, is still pissed at Bosh for the way he has conducted himself. If they refuse to play this deal, then he is out of the picture...if LeBron announces Miami tomorrow night, the only thing for sure we know is that he will play with Wade and then Toronto has to do an S&T with Miami for Bosh.
> 
> hmmmmmmmmm


????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

They can all sign for less than the max or maybe just 1 less than the max, or maybe two of them for less than the max (ala Ron Artest last year Mr. Laker fan).

OR

All they have to do is sign and trade Mike Beasely for one of Lebron or Bosh. 

OR

They could trade Mike Beasely for a future 1st or 2nd to ANY team in the league.


See how easy that is? All they have to do is get rid of Beasely or get one of them to sign for less. Not that complicated. And worse case scenario they dump Beasely for a 2nd rounder to any team who wants someone with worlds of potential.


Also the Heat can't go over the cap to sign Wade. So it wouldn't work to sign the other two and then go over to sign him. They can however easily sign all 3 as explained up above.


----------



## jmk

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



lakeshows said:


> ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> 
> They can all sign for less than the max or maybe just 1 less than the max, or maybe two of them for less than the max (ala Ron Artest last year Mr. Laker fan).
> 
> OR


NOPE.



> All they have to do is sign and trade Mike Beasely for one of Lebron or Bosh.
> 
> OR


NOPE.



> They could trade Mike Beasely for a future 1st or 2nd to ANY team in the league.


NOPE.

LOL. They couldn't trade him for a scrub, suddenly they're picking up a future 1st for him?




> See how easy that is? All they have to do is get rid of Beasely or get one of them to sign for less. Not that complicated. And worse case scenario they dump Beasely for a 2nd rounder to any team who wants someone with worlds of potential.


None of those things are even close to being likely to happen.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Ron said:


> Good.
> 
> Back to the point of discussion...
> 
> I think there may be a problem here. How can LeBron announce he is going to Miami when this deal cannot be done at this point in time?
> 
> Toronto, as far as I know, is still pissed at Bosh for the way he has conducted himself. If they refuse to play this deal, then he is out of the picture...if LeBron announces Miami tomorrow night, the only thing for sure we know is that he will play with Wade and then Toronto has to do an S&T with Miami for Bosh.
> 
> hmmmmmmmmm


Miami owns a Toronto #1, which is about to become very valuable under the circumstances. So I'm willing to bet that this gets done quickly for Beasley, a Miami #1 and a return of Toronto's #1.


----------



## lakeshows

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



jmk said:


> NOPE.
> 
> 
> 
> NOPE.
> 
> 
> 
> NOPE.
> 
> LOL. They couldn't trade him for a scrub, suddenly they're picking up a future 1st for him?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of those things are even close to being likely to happen.


Yeah you're totally right. Beasely can't play in the NBA and they can't even get a future 2nd rounder for him. LOLS.

Keep believing that.

And no one ever signs for 1-2 mil less per year to play with other players they want to play with. EVER. LIKE IT'S NEVER HAPPENED EVER BEFORE. EVER.

Good points.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



jmk said:


> LOL. They couldn't trade him for a scrub, suddenly they're picking up a future 1st for him?


All those teams with cap space and nothing to spend it on now will be looking for bargains in hopes that they have better luck next year. I really don't think trading Beasley to say, Washington, for a conditional #2 is going to be all that tough.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Bron, Wade, and Bosh yikes!

And people were mad at us for stealing Pau....


----------



## Adam

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

The Heat don't really need to salary dump Beasley. Even if you could wipe out Beasley's salary at this very moment, the Heat would still ask all three guys to take as much of a paycut as if Beasley was there.

The Heat will surely like to move Beasley, maybe to Portland for Fernandez, but that's to fill positions of need and not to give each guy a max contract. That's not the goal. Miami could have salary dumped Beasley a long time ago. Go google David Kahn admitting that Miami shot down his trade attempt with Gomes.

There's a difference between the Heat wanting to salary dump Beasley because he supposedly sucks and the truth which is Miami found out that Beasley can't play SF and we don't need him since we have Bosh.


----------



## Cris

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



> * iamdiddy*
> 
> Breaking news!!! Lebron signs with the Knicks!! I just saw him leaving the knicks owners house!!! He lives next door to me!!! Let's go NYC


More sources for you


----------



## Basel

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

The speculation is getting crazy.


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Diddy said he was joking, that he was going Miami.


----------



## BenDengGo

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

i dont understand why no team is taking a gamble on beasley. he's not a bust yet and he's still signed under his rookie contract. worse trades have been done before.


----------



## Basel

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



> sportsguy33
> 
> Announcing tomorrow if I renewed my Clips tix or not. ESPN 1pm: "Bill's Choice" hosted by Warner Wolf. All proceeds go to Shawn Kemp's kids.


http://twitter.com/sportsguy33


----------



## garnett

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

I thought at first he was probably staying at Cleveland, but now I'm starting to think that he's almost stupid if he stayd. He knows this team doesn't have a second guy and he's just going to keep getting knocked out in the playoffs against East teams that are going to continue to improve, so he must be going somewhere. Hopefully it's Chicago.


----------



## MicCheck12

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

It's done he's going to Miami. WHAT A ****ING EPIC TEAM


----------



## bballlife

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Sir Patchwork said:


> If Wade signed last couldn't all three sign for the max?


They wouldn't have enough cap room because free agents still count against their team's total salary. Of course, that changes when they sign with another team or re-sign.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Ughh I hope this isn't true.


----------



## jmk

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

I think this article might have been posted in this thread already, but even if it has, it should be again.

\http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-lebrondecision070710


----------



## Basel

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

BREAKING NEWS! Apple is releasing a special edition LeBron James iPhone. Problem is, it only vibrates because it doesn't have a ring.

:baseldance:


----------



## garnett

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

I really hope he doesn't sign with Miami because I would just lose interest in the NBA because it just wouldn't be fair how good that team would be.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Basel said:


> BREAKING NEWS! Apple is releasing a special edition LeBron James iPhone. Problem is, it only vibrates because it doesn't have a ring.
> 
> :baseldance:


Word is Apple's Miami Branch is currently working on a patch to fix this mistake 
:vuvuzela:


----------



## someone

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



futuristxen said:


> Word is Apple's Miami Branch is currently working on a patch to fix this mistake
> :vuvuzela:


A bumper with a knicks logo? Sounds expensive.


----------



## 36 Karat

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Haha. Yes. Basel ownage.


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

If he goes to Miami, it's the right move for him. That's a ****ing unstoppable dynasty. You load that team with vets minimum free agents, hope you can add role players through the draft, and that team could win multiple titles in a row.

I'm afraid to think of how that Heat team will block so many of Dwight's prime years and chances at winning titles.

As a fan, I think he should go to New York. I never thought I'd say it, but LeBron + Amare + the trades they could make and the vets minimum's free agents they'd coup in D'Antoni's system would be a very good team. It would keep some sort of balance of power with Miami, Orlando, New York, Boston, and possibly Chicago being real contenders, while having Milwaukee as a team just on the cusp, and Atlanta living up to their 90's legacy as a fringe contender. 

If he goes back to Cleveland, I think LeBron is being far too loyal. It's time to move, I just hope it's New York or Chicago rather than what would be an unbelievably stacked Miami Heat team.


----------



## O2K

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Miami is the absolute wrong move for him. He'll win rings sure, but is that all he wants. This whole 1 hour special thing reeks of attention whoredom and ego. He won't get that in Miami. Miami will always be Wade's team. Wade will always have one more ring. If you don't think that stuff matters, take a look at Kobe's "I have one more than Shaq" comment. When it comes to legacies it matters a lot. Miami is one of the worst sportstowns in the nation. Look at the Marlins, they won like 2 world series and continue to have one of the worst attendence records in the MLB, the Cubs haven't won a world series in like 100 years and continue to sell out. I don't see him in Miami. His ego would not be able to handle it. He knows it. Does he want to be 1B or does he want to be the alpha dog?


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Basel said:


> BREAKING NEWS! Apple is releasing a special edition LeBron James iPhone. Problem is, it only vibrates because it doesn't have a ring.
> 
> :vuvuzela:


I'm glad to see you finally acknowledge this. :bsmile:


----------



## IbizaXL

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



O2K said:


> Miami is the absolute wrong move for him. He'll win rings sure, but is that all he wants. This whole 1 hour special thing reeks of attention whoredom and ego. He won't get that in Miami. Miami will always be Wade's team. Wade will always have one more ring. If you don't think that stuff matters, take a look at Kobe's "I have one more than Shaq" comment. When it comes to legacies it matters a lot. Miami is one of the worst sportstowns in the nation. Look at the Marlins, they won like 2 world series and continue to have one of the worst attendence records in the MLB, the Cubs haven't won a world series in like 100 years and continue to sell out. I don't see him in Miami. His ego would not be able to handle it. He knows it. Does he want to be 1B or does he want to be the alpha dog?


frankly if i was an athlete i'd value winning above everything else. doesnt matter if i was a role player, a side-kick or star player. the fact is that priority #1 for any basketball player in the NBA is becoming a champion. same goes if you play overseas or other sports. No matter where you go--coaches, players and team owners all aspire to be the best team in their sport. 

James has a great opportunity here to not only be a champ, but to be in a contending team for the next 5 years. dynasty if you will. From a basketball standpoint, its the best move he can make. It makes sense. Will he end up in Miami? that remains to be seen. Theres too much emphasis being put on this whole idea of "alpha dog", i got more rings than you, or if its bad for his image or his name brand or his ego. If James really wants the glory of a championship and have a legacy of being a winner, then Miami is the right choice. its not too often players get a this chance.


----------



## Floods

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Hyperion said:


> Man, if he leaves the Cavs, this stunt is the equivalent to bringing your girlfriend to a nice restaurant to dump her so she can't make a scene.


No, it's equivalent to getting out of a crap franchise that was never able to put anything resembling a team around you. He can do it however he damn well pleases, he doesn't owe the city a damn thing. Any Clevelander that disagrees needs to pull their head out of their ass.

On a related note, that Goldhammer guy on radio in Cleveland has to be the world's biggest moron.


----------



## Floods

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

But seriously, no matter what happens tonight, five franchises are going to be disappointed, and three of them will probably be heart broken. Why is everyone crying about how Cleveland fans would feel if he snubbed their team on national TV, but not how all the other fanbases he's letting down feel? Kind of a double standard.


----------



## O2K

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



IbizaXL said:


> frankly if i was an athlete i'd value winning above everything else. doesnt matter if i was a role player, a side-kick or star player. the fact is that priority #1 for any basketball player in the NBA is becoming a champion. same goes if you play overseas or other sports. No matter where you go--coaches, players and team owners all aspire to be the best team in their sport.
> 
> James has a great opportunity here to not only be a champ, but to be in a contending team for the next 5 years. dynasty if you will. From a basketball standpoint, its the best move he can make. It makes sense. Will he end up in Miami? that remains to be seen. Theres too much emphasis being put on this whole idea of "alpha dog", i got more rings than you, or if its bad for his image or his name brand or his ego. If James really wants the glory of a championship and have a legacy of being a winner, then Miami is the right choice. its not too often players get a this chance.


There's a difference between being an athlete and being lebron james. Lebron James has the opportunity to be the a top 3 of all time. It will not look good on his resume that there is another top 5 player on his teams that has more rings than him. It will absolutely kill his legacy. He will not have led the heat to a ring, he would have helped them win a ring. A big difference. It's all about ego and brand for lebron. If you don't know that you haven't been paying attention to him. This guy is having an hour special just to announce where he's playing next year. It's all about brand and marketing. He refers to his friends as his "team"


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

DWYANE WADE LEBRON JAMES CHRIS BOSH

Dynasty.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



O2K said:


> There's a difference between being an athlete and being lebron james. Lebron James has the opportunity to be the a top 3 of all time. It will not look good on his resume that there is another top 5 player on his teams that has more rings than him. It will absolutely kill his legacy.


Just as it clearly killed Magic's legacy...


----------



## ATLien

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Floods said:


> Why is everyone crying about how Cleveland fans would feel if he snubbed their team on national TV, but not how all the other fanbases he's letting down feel? Kind of a double standard.


Umm because he played in Cleveland for like 7 years. Are you serious with this stuff


----------



## Floods

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



ATLien said:


> Umm because he played in Cleveland for like 7 years.


So ****ing what. Maybe they need to get over themselves and be thankful that they had him for 7 years, and blame management for putting a crap roster around him every year. Instead of blaming LeBron for being smart and leaving.


----------



## thaKEAF

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

There's no way the heartbreak of the other teams can come close to matching Cleveland. Besides what ATLien said..the Cavs roster will be hands down the worst roster out of those teams if he leaves..hell they might be the worst in the league.


----------



## O2K

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



E.H. Munro said:


> Just as it clearly killed Magic's legacy...


when he left the lakers to play with bird in Boston. Oh wait...


not quite a valid comparison. difference between being drafted by a stacked team and leaving to play for a stacked team.


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



ATLien said:


> Umm because he played in Cleveland for like 7 years. Are you serious with this stuff


Ya ya and Chicago hates Wade for resigning with the Heat. Who gives a damn, it's a business AND a sport. These guys want championships AND Money. In Miami he'll have the best team he ever had and a max contract, can't blame him.


----------



## IbizaXL

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



O2K said:


> It will not look good on his resume that there is another top 5 player on his teams that has more rings than him. It will absolutely kill his legacy. He will not have led the heat to a ring, he would have helped them win a ring.


tell that to Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Barkley, Iverson, Reggie Miller etc..


----------



## O2K

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Floods said:


> So ****ing what. Maybe they need to get over themselves and be thankful that they had him for 7 years, and blame management for putting a crap roster around him every year. Instead of blaming LeBron for being smart and leaving.


Its the way lebron is leaving. He's doing is the douchebag way. I can't see Nike being too happy about this.


----------



## Floods

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



thaKEAF said:


> There's no way the heartbreak of the other teams can come close to matching Cleveland.


That may be true, but it would be true regardless of if this hour long special was happening or not. We were hearing that LeBron would be a pariah in Cleveland for leaving LONG before the idea of a special was ever even hinted at. So saying that announcing that your leaving the Cavs on national TV is unfair to Cleveland fans is total BS.



> Besides what ATLien said..the Cavs roster will be hands down the worst roster out of those teams if he leaves..hell they might be the worst in the league.


Tough.

But, Cleveland fans will still blame LeBron for leaving that abortion of a team and going somewhere where he can actually win. That makes perfect sense, right?


----------



## O2K

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



IbizaXL said:


> tell that to Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Barkley, Iverson, Reggie Miller etc..


yea because they all played with other top 5 players with more rings?


----------



## Floods

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



O2K said:


> Its the way lebron is leaving. He's doing is the douchebag way. I can't see Nike being too happy about this.


LeBron can announce his decision however the hell he wants. He doesn't owe the city anything. Cleveland fans aren't the only ones who are going to be woefully disappointed, so everyone needs to stop whining about how much the Cleveland fans are suffering. If they're smart, they would've seen this coming for a while now and had ample time to steel themselves.


----------



## Floods

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



O2K said:


> when he left the lakers to play with bird in Boston. Oh wait...
> 
> 
> not quite a valid comparison. difference between being drafted by a stacked team and leaving to play for a stacked team.


What? No there isn't. Are you seriously suggesting that a player's legacy is not only affected by how good his supporting cast is, but how he came to be surrounded by that supporting cast? Holy christ.



Heated said:


> Ya ya and Chicago hates Wade for resigning with the Heat. Who gives a damn, it's a business AND a sport. These guys want championships AND Money. In Miami he'll have the best team he ever had and a max contract, can't blame him.


Ding ding ding ding.


----------



## thaKEAF

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Floods said:


> That may be true, but it would be true regardless of if this hour long special was happening or not. We were hearing that LeBron would be a pariah in Cleveland for leaving LONG before the idea of a special was ever even hinted at. So saying that announcing that your leaving the Cavs on national TV is unfair to Cleveland fans is total BS.
> 
> 
> 
> Tough.
> 
> But, Cleveland fans will still blame LeBron for leaving that abortion of a team and going somewhere where he can actually win. That makes perfect sense, right?


i mean i have no beef with the TV special..i think it's a good idea..if I was him or his people I would have done the same. I just mean overall this process would hurt the Cavs more than the other teams. I don't give a **** about the Cavs or their fans and I want him to leave...but they are all ****ed if he does.


----------



## O2K

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Floods said:


> LeBron can announce his decision however the hell he wants. He doesn't owe the city anything. Cleveland fans aren't the only ones who are going to be woefully disappointed, so everyone needs to stop gushing about how much the Cleveland fans are suffering.


I couldn't care less about the city of cleveland. Personally I think the city sucks. I'm a bulls fan and I would love lebron on the bulls. But this whole 1 hour special reeks of lindsey lohan levels of attention whoredom, if not more. This is the exact reason I can't see him in miami. Miami is one of the worst sports towns in the nation, he won't even be the most beloved star on his team. If people don't think ego doesn't play a part in this- the prime example is about to happen in about 7 hours.


----------



## Floods

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



thaKEAF said:


> i mean i have no beef with the TV special..i think it's a good idea..if I was him or his people I would have done the same. I just mean overall this process would hurt the Cavs more than the other teams. I don't give a **** about the Cavs or their fans and I want him to leave...but they are all ****ed if he does.


Oh I don't deny that they're royally screwed if he leaves, but the fans and media there would be woefully misplacing the blame.


----------



## O2K

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Floods said:


> What? No there isn't. Are you seriously suggesting that a player's legacy is not only affected by how good his supporting cast is, but how he came to be surrounded by that supporting cast? Holy christ.
> 
> 
> 
> .


When your involved in the Greatest Player Ever conversation ofcourse.


----------



## thaKEAF

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

If the best players they got him in 7 years were Larry Hughes, a done Shaq and Mo Williams..with Mike Brown coaching..how can they blame him for anything? But yeah it's of course coming.


----------



## ATLien

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Heated said:


> Ya ya and Chicago hates Wade for resigning with the Heat. Who gives a damn, it's a business AND a sport. These guys want championships AND Money. In Miami he'll have the best team he ever had and a max contract, can't blame him.


Cleveland fans have much more of a right to be upset at LeBron than Chicago does at Wade..because LEBRON ACTUALLY PLAYED IN THAT CITY. Wade didn't. Its not that hard to understand why that is


----------



## Floods

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



O2K said:


> When your involved in the Greatest Player Ever conversation ofcourse.


Okay. It's one thing to say that a player is less worthy of the GOAT award, but penalizing them for HOW they came to be surrounded by that cast? It makes no difference at all whether a player goes to the great supporting cast, or the great supporting cast comes to him. The roster is still the same.


----------



## ATLien

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



thaKEAF said:


> If the best players they got him in 7 years were Larry Hughes, a done Shaq and Mo Williams..with Mike Brown coaching..how can they blame him for anything? But yeah it's of course coming.


Well lets not act like LeBron himself didn't have ANYTHING to do with them exiting the playoffs early in 2010. I mean c'mon. At some point you have to stop pointing fingers at everyone else


----------



## Floods

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



ATLien said:


> Cleveland fans have much more of a right to be upset at LeBron than Chicago does at Wade..because LEBRON ACTUALLY PLAYED IN THAT CITY. Wade didn't. Its not that hard to understand why that is


Actually, yeah it is, for me. Please explain how the Cavs fans could possibly have ANY real beef with _LeBron_ for him skipping town after years of junk supporting casts and early playoff exits. That's a fault I usually associate with the front office. I think the Cleveland media and fans are the true divas in this whole thing.


----------



## Floods

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



ATLien said:


> Well lets not act like LeBron himself didn't have ANYTHING to do with them exiting the playoffs early in 2010. I mean c'mon. At some point you have to stop pointing fingers at everyone else


Now cover the other four years.


----------



## ATLien

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Floods said:


> Actually, yeah it is, for me. Please explain how the Cavs fans could possibly have ANY real beef with _LeBron_ for skipping town after years of junk supporting casts and early playoff exits. That's a fault I usually associate with the front office. I think the Cleveland media and fans are the true divas in this whole thing.


When you're a fan of a team, as opposed to a fan of team_s_, its more emotional than that. so if LeBron gets some boos next season, you will be surprised/offended? I don't get that at all.


----------



## Floods

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



ATLien said:


> When you're a fan of a team, as opposed to a fan of team_s_, its more emotional than that. so if LeBron gets some boos next season, you will be surprised/offended? I don't get that at all.


Tough ****. No, I won't be surprised, because I know how many of those retards will blame their lowly franchise status completely on LeBron. I wouldn't boo him, because I actually understand the situation.

All this emotions crap has absolutely no place in a decent basketball conversation.


----------



## O2K

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Floods said:


> Okay. It's one thing to say that a player is less worthy of the GOAT award, but penalizing them for HOW they came to be surrounded by that cast? It makes no difference at all whether a player goes to the great supporting cast, or the great supporting cast comes to him. The roster is still the same.


I wonder if Jordan had decided to play on a team with Shaq, would he still be widely considered as the Goat? Who knows. But it would tarnish both for their legacies no doubt.

Kobe not being the "man" in his first three rings still haunts him among many "experts" and fans. It's a big deal.


----------



## ATLien

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Floods said:


> Tough ****. No, I won't be surprised, because I know how many of those retards will blame their lowly franchise status completely on LeBron. I wouldn't boo him, because I actually understand the situation.
> 
> All this emotions crap has absolutely no place in a decent basketball conversation.


I am talking about the fans response to the face of the franchise leaving, & emotions does have a place in that conversation. I can 100% understand Cleveland fans being mad at LeBron, whether right or wrong


----------



## Floods

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



O2K said:


> I wonder if Jordan had decided to play on a team with Shaq, would he still be widely considered as the Goat? Who knows. But it would tarnish both for their legacies no doubt.


Who else would it be?



> Kobe not being the "man" in his first three rings still haunts him among many "experts" and fans. It's a big deal.


NOBODY has EVER won the championship without help. The Kobe/Shaq teams were anything but a list of HOFers once you took Kobe and Shaq out of the equation. I don't see how it hurts Kobe at all.


----------



## Adam

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Everyone in the world knows LeBron is better than Kobe. None of all this conjecture matters. If you're talking individual ability LeBron is the MVP. Winning a ring won't hurt anything.


----------



## f22egl

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Dre™ said:


> Like I've said before...the Heat aren't some automatic steamroller even with the big 3. They still have areas that need filling, specifically in the post and with the 3 point shooting.


In the short term, LeBron isn't likely to win a title wherever he goes or be the favorite. But in the a year or two, a team like Miami should be able to fill the holes with minimum free agents and the MLE next season.


----------



## f22egl

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Ron said:


> Jesus, if this is true, the Knicks sure got ****ed again.
> 
> $100 million for a PF who averages 6.6 rebounds a game. Great signing. Jesus.


Amare averaged 6.6 rpg in the playoffs but 8.9 in the regular season.


----------



## BG7

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Floods said:


> Tough ****. No, I won't be surprised, because I know how many of those retards will blame their lowly franchise status completely on LeBron. I wouldn't boo him, because I actually understand the situation.
> 
> All this emotions crap has absolutely no place in a decent basketball conversation.


This isn't like Ben Gordon, Carlos Boozer, Amare Stoudemire, etc. where their old teams weren't offering them contracts. This is Lebron flat out rejecting Cleveland.


----------



## tone wone

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Whats funny to me about this 1-hour special is...

Its not like ESPN would not have cleared 2hrs of programing as soon as his decision was announced anyway. Lebron makes his decision and all we see is a scroll at the bottom of the screen, a 20 sec. break in coverage and then back to baseball??? I dont think so.

As far as the idea of him ending up in Miami; as a big fan of his im not exactly thrilled about it. I would much rather see him in Chicago and go head up against Wade than team up with him. Those who already don't like him will label him a coward of sorts who ran to Wade for a ring(s); instead of embracing the challenge of winning one as the undisputed alfa-dog. Those who are fans would sorta view it as waste of his talent. 

Watching him tone his game waaay down to "fit in" just won't be as entertaining as watching him have some of the most prolific seasons of the modern era.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



O2K said:


> when he left the lakers to play with bird in Boston. Oh wait...


I'm sorry, I was under the impression that he joined the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Lakers. You know, that tall guy that led the Milwaukee Bucks to a title? The one with one more ring?


----------



## O2K

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



E.H. Munro said:


> I'm sorry, I was under the impression that he joined the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Lakers. You know, that tall guy that led the Milwaukee Bucks to a title? The one with one more ring?


oh i didn't know we were referring to being drafted as "joining" because we all know draftees get to chose their teams.


also this by Bill Simmons is on point:


> I think it’s a cop-out. Any super-competitive person would rather beat Dwyane Wade than play with him. Don’t you want to find the Ali to your Frazier and have that rival pull the greatness out of you? That’s why I’m holding out hope that LeBron signs with New York or Chicago (or stays in Cleveland), because he’d be saying, “Fine. Kobe, Dwight and Melo all have their teams. Wade and Bosh have their teams. The Celtics are still there. Durant’s team is coming. I’m gonna go out and build MY team, and I’m kicking all their asses.” That’s what Jordan would have done. Hell, that’s what Kobe would have done.”


The winner in all this if Lebron does indeed go to Miami is Wade. He's thinking "how do i ensure lebron doesn't have more rings than me? get him to join me in Miami"


I still don't subscribe to the rumor that Lebron is Miami bound. His ego wouldn't be able to handle it.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



O2K said:


> oh i didn't know we were referring to being drafted as "joining" because we all know draftees get to chose their teams.


Who gives a ****? Using your new criteria, we have to eliminate Kareem & Wilt from the GOAT discussion, which is simply indicative of how absurd your gerrymandering is.


----------



## O2K

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



E.H. Munro said:


> Who gives a ****? Using your new criteria, we have to eliminate Kareem & Wilt from the GOAT discussion, which is simply indicative of how absurd your gerrymandering is.



nope. Kareem won before the lakers. wilt won with the 67 sixers.


lebron- none.

try again.


----------



## O2K

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

also the heat have offered mike miller a 5 year 30 mil deal. i would assume that means no lebron because they would not have the money for that. but i could be wrong.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



O2K said:


> nope. Kareem won before the lakers. wilt won with the 67 sixers.


I'm sorry, I thought players had to win with the team that drafted them in order to be in the GOAT discussion? What this really boils down to is that James might sign with a team that would win a pissload of titles, and therefore you want to invent a reason to disqualify him from any GOAT discussion. It won't. If Miami were to reel off three or four titles in a row all history is going to remember is that he was the best player on one of the best teams in league history. Just as history remembers Shaq as the best player on the threepeat Lakers squad. Robert Horry and his passel of rings are lost in the miasma.


----------



## O2K

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



E.H. Munro said:


> I'm sorry, I thought players had to win with the team that drafted them in order to be in the GOAT discussion? What this really boils down to is that James might sign with a team that would win a pissload of titles, and therefore you want to invent a reason to disqualify him from any GOAT discussion. It won't. If Miami were to reel off three or four titles in a row all history is going to remember is that he was the best player on one of the best teams in league history. Just as history remembers Shaq as the best player on the threepeat Lakers squad. Robert Horry and his passel of rings are lost in the miasma.


Look at my past posts, I have no problem putting Lebron in the GOAT conversation. I've said many times there no reason why he shouldn't be the GOAT barring injuries. It does take away from his legacy to piggy back wade.

Also shaq didn't exactly leave orlando for a stacked LA team.


----------



## myst

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



O2K said:


> also the heat have offered mike miller a 5 year 30 mil deal. i would assume that means no lebron because they would not have the money for that. but i could be wrong.


Source? 5 years is 3 years too long.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



O2K said:


> Also shaq didn't exactly leave orlando for a stacked LA team.


History doesn't give a **** that Shaq left Orlando at all. And wouldn't care if Shaq joined a "stacked" LA team either. Also, unless something has radically changed, LeBron is joining a team that got steamrolled in the first round of the playoffs. The fact is that Bosh is joining the same team, and as the third option he's going to be the guy, like James Worthy, lost in the shuffle. Not the Dead President or Wade.


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

This situation is so potentially heartbreaking because LeBron was marketed as such an Ohioan..he should know the culture, and how moments like John Elway's Drive..or the Browns moving in the middle of the night permanently sapped a bit of life out of their culture. Major televised moments that embarrassed the area and sent everyone to the bar..

From Bill Simmons:



> Seven months later, it's happening. I can't wait to watch for the same reasons I couldn't turn away from O.J.'s Bronco chase or the Artest melee: it's Car Wreck Television. If LeBron picks anyone other than the Cavaliers, it will be the cruelest television moment since David Chase ended "The Sopranos" by making everyone think they lost power. Cleveland fans will never forgive LeBron, nor should they. He knows better than anyone what kind of sports anguish they have suffered over the years. Losing LeBron on a contrived one-hour show would be worse than Byner's fumble, Jose Mesa, the Game 5 meltdown against Boston, The Drive, The Shot and everything else. At least those stomach-punch moments weren't preordained, unless you believe God hates Cleveland (entirely possible, by the way). This stomach-punch moment? Calculated. By a local kid they loved, defended and revered.



He should know better *as* a native then to create another horrifying moment like that for people who've shown him nothing but love. All the posters, billboards, graffiti murals, noone's going to appreciate him like Cleveland did because he was "their's" in a way no athlete is usually ever "their's". 

This may seem corny but it's actually kind of sad and I'd definitely lose a bit of respect for him. He could definitely do this classier if he had as much respect for Cleveland as he claimed. 

The Bulls, Nets, Knicks, Clippers will be dissappointed, but they still have money..the Cavs will be drained, set back 6 years, and wondering if an Ohio native doesn't even want to be there why should anyone else. You can't downplay how huge this moment is. I guarantee if you wiki'd Cleveland Sports in 4 years "The Decision" would be a category.


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

The thing is that if he done this in a classier way and joined the Heat everyone would be talking about how potentially awesome this trio could be. Instead, he dragged it along and didn't announce his decision along with Wade and Bosh, and now everyone is so fed up with it that this is potentially legacy ruining with people calling him a chump and not a real winner.


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

But on the flipside this move definitely shows everyone who the main man would be in Miami.


----------



## Jakain

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

I'm in the camp where if LeBron stays in Cleveland its much worse for his legacy since they're set so far back again. They fired the head coach, the GM quit, Jamison is ancient and worthless against Boston, Mo Wiliams, James constantly left to carry the team alone which just won't bring you a championship, etc. If he sticks with Cleveland he forsakes making history through championships.

Does James really want to be Dirk 2.0 or a KG that never left the T-wolves? Probably not. Not even Kobe wanted to stick around the Lakers if they were just going to have pieces of **** like Kwame Brown playing with him, and this is a guy who already had three championships on a legendary-three peat. It is somewhat admirable to stay for one team all your career but contending for championships is what being an athlete is all about.

If he goes with Miami he's basically setting up his legacy for being part of a dominant force not seen in the NBA since the Shaq/Kobe days. He's siding with two of his good friends from TEAM USA and Miami would have 3 of the top 15 or so players in the NBA, and all three are in the top 6 or so PER-wise. If James takes less money and goes to Miami, he joins the ranks of those willing to put forth a championship over money. He'd be working in a county named after Wade and a team where he won the Finals MVP so I don't think there's going to be much conflict over whose team it is, nor do I think that its going to be a big deal with guys who were good friends on TEAM USA.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Oh, man! This is gonna be EPIC!
This is a lose-lose situation for LeEgo (the Spectacle, that is).
And yes, i wanna watch LeEgo tear the heart out of the Crabs' fans by (in other words) saying "my team sucks and i wanna get out!"

Oh, tthe joy of living!
It almost feels like Christmas!


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

Get ready for old school players ranting about this in a few days.


----------



## Blue

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



O2K said:


> also the heat have offered mike miller a 5 year 30 mil deal. i would assume that means no lebron because they would not have the money for that. but i could be wrong.


FML. I think i'm a heat fan now.


----------



## 29380

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



> FisolaNYDN
> 
> Now we now why Donnie thank Isiah Thomas today at the press conference. Knicks sent Zeke to Akron to make one last pitch for LeBron


:whiteflag:


----------



## ATLien

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

I gotta stop entering this thread. The twitter updates are slowly taking away some of the suspense from this.


----------



## Marcus13

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



myst said:


> Source? 5 years is 3 years too long.


http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/38150598/ns/sports-player_news/

Not buying it tho. ESPN Radio has been reporting Lebron will join Miami tonight ALLLLL day long. I can't imagine they are wrong about this, or they're going to end up looking pretty stupid


----------



## Marcus13

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

LeBron has booked six cabanas at the W South Beach this weekend to celebrate his decision. 

http://www.playerpress.com/articles/10023-lebron-planning-party-in-south-beach-must-be-the-heat-


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*

I wonder if all of this is just a move by LeBron's camp to amp up the hype around "The Decision"


----------



## O2K

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Marcus13 said:


> LeBron has booked six cabanas at the W South Beach this weekend to celebrate his decision.
> 
> http://www.playerpress.com/articles/10023-lebron-planning-party-in-south-beach-must-be-the-heat-


I thought lebron was going to be in New York for Carmello's reality tv wedding?


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



O2K said:


> I thought lebron was going to be in New York for Carmello's reality tv wedding?


"I can touch down and take off the same night" - Jay-Z



> I thought I was the only person in that category Thursday afternoon. Then I told Orlando general manager Otis Smith that I still thought James would return to Cleveland, and he said, "I think you're right.''
> 
> Now, I'm on a roll. I then dialed up somebody who is a definite insider when it comes to James and is not affiliated with Cleveland. This man, who is well known in NBA circles but said his name can't be used, believes James will announce Thursday night on ESPN that he's re-signing with the Cavaliers.
> 
> This isn't a "FanHouse-has-learned'' story, but this person does know more than most. And he offered some pretty good reasons why James will not abandon the team in his native Ohio.
> 
> "I think those reports are wrong,'' said the individual about reports James, a native of Akron, Ohio, is bolting to the Heat. "LeBron is not going to schedule a one-hour television show just to say that he's sticking it to his hometown. There's no way.''


http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/07/08/so-wait-lebron-is-staying/

I'm still waiting for the "don't rule out the Clippers" source. 

I'd be weary of any source close to Lebron anyway though, 'cause he could easily be swaying them to throw the Miami scent off.


----------



## ATLien

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Hibachi! said:


> I wonder if all of this is just a move by LeBron's camp to amp up the hype around "The Decision"


It is and its working!

Me before: No way I am watching this ****.
Me now: Ehh might as well nothing else on.


----------



## ajax25

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

im going to head to the gym after work, I don't get ESPN at home but can watch it while I run on the treadmill at the gym lol....I wasn't really all that interested but I kind of want to watch it now


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

I'm just trying to actually figure out why people don't think this is great for the league to have all this intrigue. Why would you just want to wake up one day and see he signed wherever he signed? The intrigue is dope..there won't be a single thing that matches this until Opening night, as a basketball fan you should be excited.


----------



## ajax25

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

i like what colin cowherd said this morning. It spares us from having to talk baseball for another month haha


----------



## Blue

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

Zomg! Less than 3 hours to 'LeDecision'. :laugh:


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

:no: LeCision


----------



## ATLien

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*



ajax25 said:


> i like what colin cowherd said this morning. It spares us from having to talk baseball for another month haha


Umm.. baseball is awesome.


----------



## 29380

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*



> Agency Exec: LeBron won't announce team within the 1st 15 minutes of "The Decision" show


Getting tired of this


----------



## MohamedMagic

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

He was never going to have a one-hour show only to announce his decision within the first 10 minutes. We'll be lucky if we know after 30 minutes.


----------



## IbizaXL

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*



ATLien said:


> Umm.. baseball is awesome.


well, that sentiment is purely subjective.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



O2K said:


> The winner in all this if Lebron does indeed go to Miami is Wade. He's thinking "how do i ensure lebron doesn't have more rings than me? get him to join me in Miami"


Do you really think that's what Wade is thinking? Of course not. They're friends, and if me and my good friend were playing in a league where we were 2 of the 5 best players in the league, we wouldn't play on different teams just for "fairness" sake. We'd play together and dominate. It's fun that way. It's not like they won't have stiff competition, but playing together is far better than playing with a bunch of guys who you know you can't win with. That's a terrible feeling. 

I think they both want to win a bunch of titles. I'm sorry but if they rattled off a few in a row, Wade's 1 more wouldn't mean a thing if LeBron was the best player on the dynasty team, and he would be.


----------



## 29380

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*



> NYPost_Willis
> 
> They're kicking Boys and Girls off the grounds of the Boys and Girls Club in Greenwich. #LeBron


:nonono:


----------



## Blue

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

Not to mention Wade is what, 3-4 years older than LeBron? LeBron could easily win 1 more when Wade retires, assuming he sticks in the league longer


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

Just to reinforce the same argument, I don't think it matters much if Wade has one more ring if he has 2-5 less MVP trophies.


----------



## 29380

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

http://dimemag.com/2010/07/source-lebron-james-is-100-percent-not-staying-in-cleveland/


----------



## coxl

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

lebron will join bosh and wade in miami. now lets get us a pg


----------



## 29380

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

The MSG Network is showing a Cavs Knicks game right now.


----------



## afobisme

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

i think mark cuban and gm execs are right.. this is just a misdirection from lebron's group. what a publicity stunt. i'm calling new york or cleveland.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

It's crazy that this starts in less than an hour, and despite everything, no one REALLY knows what he's going to do.

This is great entertainment at least. I don't know that it's going to do anything but make Lebron hated for the rest of the summer, but it's definitely become THE Television event of the summer.


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

I'm quite positive I know where he's going, you guys are being fooled by all these smokescreens and idiots that don't know what they're talking about.

It happens all the time, even with the regular season..everyone knew damn well noone in the West was beating the Lakers but everybody was psyching themselves out because there was nothing better to do.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*



Dre™ said:


> I'm quite positive I know where he's going, you guys are being fooled by all these smokescreens and idiots that don't know what they're talking about.
> 
> It happens all the time, even with the regular season..everyone knew damn well noone in the West was beating the Lakers but everybody was psyching themselves out because there was nothing better to do.


Then predict away.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*



Dre™ said:


> I'm quite positive I know where he's going.


Where?


----------



## HB

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

If he says the Clippers, I wont even be surprised


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*



Hyperion said:


> Then predict away.


Yeah, right?

Where's the prediction?

You're better than pulling out the old, "let's say we called it right after the fact" prediction, Dre.

I think you're as clueless as we are.

For the record, I'm saying Miami.


----------



## f22egl

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

Revealing if true.



> STEIN_LINE_HQ
> RT @SHowardCooper: RT @gregcote: #Heat has canceled a full-page welcome ad in The Miami Herald. I'm serious


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

I can't say. I'm dead serious. I'll even PM you after the show, but the person who said something to me would be compromised.

I never talk out of my ass on here about something like this..I'll just be secure in what I know, you can think and joke away about it.


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

Just look in that prediction thread and please drop it.

I'll tell you one more thing, if I'm wrong you can have a field day with it.


----------



## jericho

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*



Dre™ said:


> I'm quite positive I know where he's going


Please say Denver.


----------



## O2K

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

my sources tell me that he's going to the bulls. the hour will be full of commercials and why he chose the bulls. they will talk about his conversation with Jordan about joining the bulls.


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

I pretty much already said more than I should have so can we please change the subject..I've got enough people upset at me.


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

Lebron wanna play with us dogg?? We Da Best


----------



## O2K

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

Its either the bulls or the wolves


----------



## Kidd

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

lol the old man who's interested in where Shaq is going


----------



## Basel

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*



Dre™ said:


> I pretty much already said more than I should have so can we please change the subject..I've got enough people upset at me.


You voted for Miami in the other thread. So you know he's going to the Heat, like everyone has predicted?


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

What did I just say...

...anyways...should I bake or fry my chicken tonight?


----------



## jericho

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

In all seriousness, to the extent that James and "his people" are behind this wild assortment of contradicting indications and rumors, then shame on them.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*



Dre™ said:


> I pretty much already said more than I should have so can we please change the subject..I've got enough people upset at me.


PM me your prediction and I will reveal that you were right if you are. I won't inquire further


----------



## Basel

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

PM me, too.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*



Basel said:


> PM me, too.


Too late. don't listen to blabberface(Basel is blabberface) DRE! He'll tell everyone!


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

8 minutes out...can't wait to see what this is gonna be like.


----------



## Vuchato

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*



Dre™;6316850 said:


> What did I just say...
> 
> ...anyways...should I bake or fry my chicken tonight?


I'm quite positive I know which style of chicken you will eat.


----------



## 29380

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*



> SamAmicoNBA
> 
> LBJ visited ex-Knick Allan Houston's house, according to reports.


----------



## jericho

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*



Dre™ said:


> What did I just say...
> 
> ...anyways...should I bake or fry my chicken tonight?


Grill it, baby.


----------



## afobisme

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

can't wait for "the decision" it will finally be over tonight. i won't have to hear about lebron every other minute. so excited!

i'm not going to watch his stupid special though. i'll just check what he decides on the forum.


----------



## Cris

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

I really really really really want Chris Broussard to have to eat some major crow. If he uses the word "Sources" again, I swear to god.


----------



## Lynx

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

..and so it begins...


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

I hope he hurries up with this decision I'm trying to bump that Rick Ross tape after this...


----------



## Cris

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

I swear to god Chris Broussard has said this same exact phrase literally 100 times today


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

If he doesn't go to Miami, can we officially write off Chris Broussard as a credible reporter?


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

LeBron can't stay in Cleveland. I mean he doesn't want to be Dan Marino...


----------



## coxl

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*

the state of ohio needs to be put on suicide watch.


----------



## afobisme

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*



Game3525 said:


> If he doesn't go to Miami, can we officially write off Chris Broussard as a credible reporter?


i don't know much about him, but u cna't blame him. lebron's crowd probably fed it to him.


----------



## Lynx

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

F!

Twitter is crashing...Damn you, LeBron!


----------



## Cris

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, 9PM ET (ESPN)*



coxl said:


> the state of ohio needs to be put on suicide watch.


oh they are...


----------



## Lynx

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

I wonder if Kobe and MJ are watching the LeBron special with their 11 rings combined. Who knows maybe Phil is there with his own eleven...rocking that toe ring!!!


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

I think 1 minute after the words utter out of his mouth the entire U.S. will hear a faint bang. That's a collective of gunshots in about 4-5 areas of the country.


----------



## gi0rdun

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Tell us the ****ing decision!!!


----------



## Vuchato

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

lol, they didn't even show him in a Clippers jersey.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

MJ reaction.


----------



## Knick Killer

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Wow the guys at the desk totally ruined the suspense by basically saying everyone they talked to said Bron Bron is going to Miami.


----------



## 29380

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Didn't even put him in a clippers jersey.


----------



## afobisme

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Knick_Killer31 said:


> Wow the guys at the desk totally ruined the suspense by basically saying everyone they talked to said Bron Bron is going to Miami.


that just makes me think lebron isn't going to miami.


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Well he's not so bad. All the ad revenues were his say so you'd assume he'd have a say so in what gets aired..at least they aren't a loop of Lebron commercials. 

And ESPN lost for this weak ass California Love interpolation. Like Keaf told me they're too busy paying all these BS reporters to throw **** against the wall to pay for real royalties.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

I would love it if he says screw it and signs with the Clippers....


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

major intentions are most imminent...

Right Here...


----------



## coxl

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

how long can they fart ass around for?


----------



## Lynx

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

20 mins passed..and still no decision.


----------



## Spaceman Spiff

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

I refuse to watch this. Can't believe nothing yet. I'm not about to watch a LeDiva dick sucking marathon for 59:55


----------



## afobisme

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Lynx said:


> 20 mins passed..and still no decision.


there was an exec or gm who said there is no way lebron is announcing anything in the first 15 minutes, and that there is no way he's leaving cleveland for miami.


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

That GM's name is Chris Grant.


----------



## Vuchato

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Well, the bottom line says its coming up next, and he's on stage right now.


----------



## Basel

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

I'm glad I have the radio at work. This **** needs to hurry up, though.


----------



## Lynx

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

My Grad school University of Phoenix is one of the sponsors of this special..lmao.


----------



## Knick Killer

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

This could be the worst decision of his life.....


----------



## coxl

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

its time


----------



## Lynx

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Jeez..ask the question already...freaking Jim Gray..


----------



## Basel

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Here we go...


----------



## Vuchato

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

"What've you been up to this summer LeBron?"

Great opening question.


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

The beginnings of this sounds like some...it was a good recruiting process..but I'm staying home...


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

It looks like Lebron is about to punk everyone....


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



> How's it gonna happen..do they have like a predetermined interview that leads up to.."well OK, where are you gonna go?"...


Sounds about right...

Ugh...saying his mother helped him in the decision sounds like a stay home suggestion...


----------



## Lynx

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

LeBron looks sad...


----------



## Jesukki

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

That interview is ****ing annoying. Just ask the ****ing question.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

STFU Jim Gary.


----------



## Lynx

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

LeBron is going to Miami Heat..it's official.


----------



## Cris

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

There you go, Miami it is


----------



## shoop da whoop

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

fml


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Lmao, how can you do that to your hometown?


----------



## Basel

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Going to be fun.


----------



## IbizaXL

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

OMG
omg om g omg omgm omg ogmogmgomgmo gomgo gmogmgomgogmgomgogmogmgomgomgogmogmogmogmgomgomgomgomgogmogmogmogm


----------



## Bubbles

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

It's official.


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

:yes: 

Keep your promise Hyperion....


----------



## jericho

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Bad. Yuck. Blech. Boring. Cop-out. Predictable. Build your own legacy, dude.


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Damnit. Goodbye league.


----------



## myst

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

HEAT!!!!!!!!!!!!! holy ****ing ****ing ****ing ****


----------



## eddymac

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Interesting choice.


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

*Super Friends!!!*

ITS HAPPENING!!!

Bron, Wade and Bosh!!!


----------



## Blue

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*


----------



## Vuchato

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

I just have one question... why is Wesley Johnson so upset about this?



> W_Johnson
> 
> Noooooooooooooooooo


lmao


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Holy ****. Lebron. Wade. Bosh.


----------



## eddymac

*Re: Super Friends!!!*

i wish he would have stayed in cleveland and built his legacy there


----------



## gi0rdun

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Boycotting the NBA. NFL MLB take me in your arms.


----------



## FSH

*Re: Super Friends!!!*



HEATLUNATIC said:


> ITS HAPPENING!!!
> 
> Bron, Wade and Bosh!!!


Bron, Wade, Bosh and 9 guys from the Local YMCA!


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

*Re: Super Friends!!!*

Heat vs Lakers should be epic over the next 3 years!


----------



## jericho

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

No bench. No interior defense. Inadequate post-up offense. No shooters. No Christmas in Cleveland. I really hate it. Pussy. Stake your own claim.


----------



## Wade County

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Holy Mother Of ****!!!


Yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss


----------



## Lynx

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Tom Izzo made the right decision...phew...


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

LeBron James just earned a new fan. Welcome to the Miami Heat Dynasty years! Hell yeah, D Wade, Bosh, and LBJ going to run the NBA for the next 5-8 years.


----------



## jmk

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Can't wait for the Heat to fail miserably. What a ****ing pussy.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Game3525 said:


> Lmao, how can you do that to your hometown?




What did he do to Akron?


----------



## MojoPin

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Seanzie said:


> Damnit. Goodbye league.


Yeah...

A team of three superstars and a bunch of scrubs.


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

*! D-y-n-a-s-t-y !*
*! D-y-n-a-s-t-y !*
*! D-y-n-a-s-t-y !* We Da Best


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



23AJ said:


> LeBron James just earned a new fan. Welcome to the Miami Heat Dynasty years! Hell yeah, D Wade, Bosh, and LBJ going to run the NBA for the next 5-8 years.


Is that a face turn 

What's this coming to?


----------



## FSH

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

They still wont beat the Lakers...Bron, Wade, Bosh and who esle? They might not even get out of the East


----------



## [Myst.]

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Wow. NBA would've been so much better had he gone to the Knicks. LeBJ/Amare vs Wade/Bosh vs Kobe/Pau. Guess that dream was just too good to be true.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Are the Lakers not the most hated team in the league anymore? If so I hate this on 500 levels.


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

If you honestly think this team isn't going to win multiple championships probably starting next year, I don't know what to tell you.


----------



## Cris

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

I CANNOT wait for LEBRON to play in Cleveland for the first time as a member of the heat!


----------



## Knick Killer

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Lebron James can never be mentioned in the GOAT conversation at the end of his career due to this decision.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



jmk said:


> Can't wait for the Heat to fail miserably. What a ****ing pussy.


lol oh please. You're just upset he didn't pick a 12 win Nets team.


----------



## roux

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

well done lebron..you gained a new city full of fans and are now hated by every other city in the nba.. you have lost my respect and i hope you and the heat go down in flames


----------



## ChosenFEW

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

why is everyone freaking out about dynasty?


this is the same team minus a couple superstars who won the bronze in the world championships


----------



## Eternal

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



23AJ said:


> LeBron James just earned a new fan. Welcome to the Miami Heat Dynasty years! Hell yeah, D Wade, Bosh, and LBJ going to run the NBA for the next 5-8 years.


:lol:

After all of the countless posts of you hating him, now your in love with him as the Heat are clearly the team to beat. Gotta jump on that bandwagon really fast.


----------



## Lynx

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Heated said:


> *! D-y-n-a-s-t-y !*
> *! D-y-n-a-s-t-y !*
> *! D-y-n-a-s-t-y !* We Da Best


Uh..huh..Win ring then talk..


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



FSH said:


> They still wont beat the Lakers...Bron, Wade, Bosh and who esle? They might not even get out of the East













:baseldance::baseldance::baseldance:


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Ugly 6 foul 7 footers and people who can shoot are over abundant. I think they'll be able to field a decent supporting cast.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



23AJ said:


> LeBron James just earned a new fan. Welcome to the Miami Heat Dynasty years! Hell yeah, D Wade, Bosh, and LBJ going to run the NBA for the next 5-8 years.


Frontrunner......


----------



## jmk

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

This team getting beat in the 1st round by a 7 or 8 seed is going to be one of the sweetest things to ever happen in sports.


----------



## Lynx

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



ChosenFEW said:


> why is everyone freaking out about dynasty?
> 
> 
> this is the same team minus a couple superstars who won the bronze in the world championships


Olympics and NBA...two different things. Pat Riley must come back and coach. Three egos on one team is just too much for Eric to handle..


----------



## jmk

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Organized Chaos said:


> lol oh please. You're just upset he didn't pick a 12 win Nets team.


I had already come to terms that he wasn't coming to the Nets. This guy is a total pussy for choosing the Heat.


----------



## Blue

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Game3525 said:


> Lmao, how can you do that to your hometown?


He's from Akron.



jericho said:


> No bench. No interior defense. Inadequate post-up offense. No shooters. No Christmas in Cleveland. I really hate it. Pussy. Stake your own claim.


Are you kidding? They have Wade, Bosh, Lebron, but you want to talk about shooting & the bench? FOH. They have Mike Miller, Beasley off the bench... Kidding me, son?? It's a wrap.


----------



## afobisme

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Seanzie said:


> If you honestly think this team isn't going to win multiple championships probably starting next year, I don't know what to tell you.


not next year. they need a few years to collect MLE contracts. but man, the heat are going to be stacked. i'm definitely surprised.

i don't know why people are hating on him for choosing the heat.. he wants to win.


----------



## jericho

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Seanzie said:


> If you honestly think this team isn't going to win multiple championships probably starting next year, I don't know what to tell you.


Tell me why you think it's a lock to do so. 

You may be right, but I'm not convinced. I need to see the supporting cast, as well as about 20 games of evidence that these three dudes (and the aforementioned 9 guys from the YMCA) can mesh their respective games.


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*










WE DA BEST


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Dre™ said:


> :yes:
> 
> Keep your promise Hyperion....


All HAIL NOSTRA*DRE*MUS!


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Dre™ said:


> Is that a face turn
> 
> What's this coming to?


I've always maintained, most of my hate was directed towards James because of the team he previously played for in the Ohio Cavs, and some of the undeserved pub he received out of high school straight to the NBA. That's all under the bridge now. I've always been a big D Wade and Heat fan for years! Bosh is a great piece to add to Wade and James. Now let the Heat Dynasty take over the NBA.


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

*Re: Super Friends!!!*



FSH said:


> Bron, Wade, Bosh and 9 guys from the Local YMCA!


We'll take it!!!


----------



## ChosenFEW

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Lynx said:


> Olympics and NBA...two different things. Pat Riley must come back and coach. Three egos on one team is just too much for Eric to handle..


exactly, they played people who wouldn't crack an 8 man rotation on an NBA team and came in third place.


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

GO wrap up in some snuggies CAVS fans. hahahhaha.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Super Friends!!!*



FSH said:


> Bron, Wade, Bosh and 9 guys from the Local YMCA!


That team would still probably win 60 games.


----------



## FSH

*Re: Super Friends!!!*



Organized Chaos said:


> That team would still probably win 60 games.


lol yah they would


----------



## Lynx

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

New York Knicks got absolutely ****ed in the ass.


----------



## ChosenFEW

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

look at the bright side side cleveland fans..... you still have the cleveland browns


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Well, at least we aren't the most hated team in the league anymore along with the Celtics......


----------



## Jesukki

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Realcavsfans.com is real entertaining reading right now if you can even load the page. Well how many here thinks that they are not going to work together and are blown up after couple years?


----------



## MojoPin

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Seanzie said:


> If you honestly think this team isn't going to win multiple championships probably starting next year, I don't know what to tell you.


Maybe in two years... 

This isn't NBA Live. How many lanes are there going to be for Wade and LeBron? Neither is a fantastic shooter, although Wade has gotten better.

No bench whatsoever. No money.


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Hyperion said:


> All HAIL NOSTRA*DRE*MUS!


Real talk I got my info from another person on this site. If he's willing to take the credit I'll give it to him.


----------



## LA68

*Re: Super Friends!!!*



HEATLUNATIC said:


> We'll take it!!!


Maybe they can get something decent for Beasley ?

This is a championship move ! I like that he puts winning above everything else.


----------



## Lynx

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



ChosenFEW said:


> exactly, they played people who wouldn't crack an 8 man rotation on an NBA team and came in third place.


Third place isn't a Winner place. At least, not in good ole...UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!


----------



## roux

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

organ*I*zation....ugh


----------



## Vuchato

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Blue Magic said:


> He's from Akron.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you kidding? They have Wade, Bosh, Lebron, but you want to talk about shooting & the bench? FOH. They have Mike Miller, Beasley off the bench... Kidding me, son?? It's a wrap.


They don't have enough cash to sign Miller now. It's Beasley and Chalmers +those 3. Teams are gonna pack the paint and they won't be able to stop any of the best offensive big men. I can't imagine them beating the Lakers next year if they even get that far.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

The New Big Three.


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



23AJ said:


> I've always maintained, most of my hate was directed towards James because of the team he previously played for in the Ohio Cavs, and some of the undeserved pub he received out of high school straight to the NBA. That's all under the bridge now. I've always been a big D Wade and Heat fan for years! Bosh is a great piece to add to Wade and James. Now let the Heat Dynasty take over the NBA.


The reverberations are felt throughout the world..we're now dealing with 23AJ the Lebron Homer...


Wow...


----------



## edwardcyh

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Wow... he REALLY screwed the Cavs. I am still having a hard time believing that CLE got absolutely nothing out of this.


----------



## ChosenFEW

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Lynx said:


> Third place isn't a Winner place. At least, not in good ole...UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!



what are you talking about.... what are you even counter arguing me about.... I think we're talking about the same thing but you just haven't "got it yet...."


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Well, I know Kobe will hitting the gym tommorrow....


----------



## roux

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

does this mean beasley and chalmers to toronto?


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Lynx said:


> New York Knicks got absolutely ****ed in the ass.


They have Amare for 5 years.....


----------



## Dream Hakeem

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



edwardcyh said:


> Wow... he REALLY screwed the Cavs. I am still having a hard time believing that CLE got absolutely nothing out of this.


He brought them out of obscurity for a while.


----------



## Lynx

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



ChosenFEW said:


> what are you talking about.... what are you even counter arguing me about.... I think we're talking about the same thing but you just haven't "got it yet...."


lmao...My point is valid. Eric won't be able to coach all three of them. I will be surprised if Pat Riley doesn't return to the sidelines..


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Way some people are talking, it reminds me of when people doubted KG, Allen and Pierce.


----------



## LamarButler

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

3rd best team in the league at best. They're not winning the championship this year. They'll start their dynasty either year after this, or after that one.


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

I wonder how many Cavs fans will convert to Heat fans, and how many will attempt to assassinate Lebron. hahahaha.

*chest beating*


----------



## Cris

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Dream Hakeem said:


> He brought them out of obscurity for a while.


I feel bad for the city, not the cavs organization. But all those restaurant owners and other businesses in the Cleveland area that grew their businesses why the cavs thrived.


----------



## Lynx

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Hyperion said:


> They have Amare for 5 years.....


Well, they do for 8 rebs avg. worth of 100 million bucks.

Knicks tanked two seasons for Lebron, and still didn't get him.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Organized Chaos said:


> Way some people are talking, it reminds me of when people doubted KG, Allen and Pierce.


Yeah, but at least they had a roster in place.....


----------



## ChosenFEW

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Lynx said:


> lmao...My point is valid. Eric won't be able to coach all three of them. I will be surprised if Pat Riley doesn't return to the sidelines..



pat riley is definitely not going to sit back.... he's an attention whore


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Organized Chaos said:


> Way some people are talking, it reminds me of when people doubted KG, Allen and Pierce.


Not necessarily. Like it's been said here KG's defense in 07 was a huge factor, Perkins can defend any center in the league, Posey...PJ Brown..

I'm confident Pat can win multiple titles..but the skepticism is entirely justifiable.


----------



## edwardcyh

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Dream Hakeem said:


> He brought them out of obscurity for a while.


I guess cavs fans can crawl back under the rocks now? The cavs organization has done everything for the guy, and his last request is for them to bend over? This just isn't right.

I feel sorry for the cavs and the fans.


----------



## afobisme

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Organized Chaos said:


> Way some people are talking, it reminds me of when people doubted KG, Allen and Pierce.


the difference is that wade, lebron, and bosh are known for their offense. wade and lebron are known for their slashing/driving and NOT their shooting ability. bosh is more known as an offensive player than he is a defensive player while KG was a defense first type of guy.


----------



## Blue

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



23AJ said:


> I've always maintained, most of my hate was directed towards James because of the team he previously played for in the Ohio Cavs, and some of the undeserved pub he received out of high school straight to the NBA. That's all under the bridge now. I've always been a big D Wade and Heat fan for years! Bosh is a great piece to add to Wade and James. Now let the Heat Dynasty take over the NBA.


I know what you mean man, the heat are nice right now. It's hard not to like that team. How do you stop Wade + Lebron + Bosh? Forget about the damn bench, forget about the coach, that is a Dynasty. Magic need to try to get Carmelo next year, and/or maybe pull a Chris Paul in the summer of 2013, to barely even have a prayer...


----------



## Blue

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



edwardcyh said:


> I guess cavs fans can crawl back under the rocks now? The cavs organization has done everything for the guy, and his last request is for them to bend over? This just isn't right.
> 
> I feel sorry for the cavs and the fans.


The Cavs brought him little to no help. How did they bend over for him again? Sure last season they tried in desperation, but LeBron made them great, not vice-versa. Without him that team barely limps into the playoffs every year, as opposed to having the top record. Dont be mistaken, the Heat will run in the East.


----------



## FSH

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

what is Robert Horry doing right now? Heat can sign him and they would no doubt win it all


----------



## MojoPin

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Celtics had a better team put in place when the Big 3 came.

Heat have A LOT of question marks.


----------



## zttvista

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*

Why is everyone so mad at LeBron? It's not a copout, he wants to win and he proved it today. He's not worried about his legacy, he just wants championships, so give him a break. Miami certainly won't be the first team with 3 MAX (or close to) deal players. The Celtics have Garnett, Pierce, and Allen. The Suns had Stoudemire/Nash/Marion, two of which had a max deal and the third (Nash) had close to a MAX. 

And so what if he wins with two top players? What great player, with championships, hasn't had great teammates? Jordan played with TWO, Pippen/Rodman, top 50 players of all time. Bosh isn't even in the discussion of top 50 ever, and more than likely will never be. He's never even been a first team all NBA. 

All it sounds like to me is sour grapes from a lot of very jealous people. LeBron owed nothing to Cleveland and joined practically every other NBA player in NOT playing for their home town. He didn't go to New York or the Nets because he wants to win today. Cleveland had years to bring top talent to team up with LeBron and all they could muster was Mo freaking Williams.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

So no one else finds this team to be like killing a bear with a bazooka? It's more than enough power to beat any team in the league. It's borderline excessive. I now imagine the owner of the Heat to look like this:










It's too much talent! All they need is a big body for 6 fouls and an oversided PG defender (Miller?)


----------



## LamarButler

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



afobisme said:


> the difference is that wade, lebron, and bosh are known for their offense. wade and lebron are known for their slashing/driving and NOT their shooting ability. bosh is more known as an offensive player than he is a defensive player while KG was a defense first type of guy.


The difference is, no one in the Boston Big 3 had to radically change their game.

KG kept being the best defensive player in the league and a 3 quarter scorer.

Pierce kept being an attacker, a takeover player.

Ray kept shooting.

Wade and LeBron are going to have to work with less space. They'll have more lanes clogged. LeBron and Wade are going to have to prove themselves as spot up 3 point shooters for this to work.

This definitely could work, but I don't think they'll adjust enough or have the supporting cast around them to win the championship next year.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

It isn't Lebron leaving that the problem, it is doing it on national television. Jesus Christ, Cleveland has suffer enough.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Blue Magic said:


> I know what you mean man, the heat are nice right now. It's hard not to like that team. How do you stop Wade + Lebron + Bosh? Forget about the damn bench, forget about the coach, that is a Dynasty. Magic need to try to get Carmelo next year, and/or maybe pull a Chris Paul in the summer of 2013, to barely even have a prayer...


Dwight Howard and Kobe Bryant are still my favorite players in the league, but that being said, I love this new look Miami Heat team. James, Wade, and Bosh are going to run this league for a long long time. If at all feasible it would be great if Howard goes to the Heat too at some point!


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Game3525 said:


> It isn't Lebron leaving that the problem, it is doing it on national television. Jesus Christ, Cleveland has suffer enough.


They must have really pissed in his Kool Aid for him to do that to them! Me thinks a certain shady Cavs player rumor is true!


----------



## Ghiman

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

My condolences go out to City of Cleveland...


----------



## Cris

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Pretty clear why Lebron choose Conn. to do this interview. He would have never made it out alive.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Game3525 said:


> It isn't Lebron leaving that the problem, it is doing it on national television. Jesus Christ, Cleveland has suffer enough.


Jordan put the dagger in Cleveland with the last second jumper in the playoffs to diminish the Cavs chances at ever competing for a chip. And LeBron James just put another dagger in the heart of the Ohio Cavs championship aspirations by signing with the Heat and some real ball players. South Beach represent!


----------



## Basel

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Can't wait for the Lakers to beat Miami next June.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



23AJ said:


> Jordan put the dagger in Cleveland with the last second jumper in the playoffs to diminish the Cavs chances at ever competing for a chip. And LeBron James just put another dagger in the heart of the Ohio Cavs championship aspirations by signing with the Heat and some real ball players. South Beach represent!


Wow, you are a frontrunner.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

I'm good with this. My fiance is from Miami, and she's tight with people who have some box seats down there. So I'm straight. I'm a Lebron James fan, but I'll keep up with the Cavs too. Invested too much in those players to not be interested to see what happens there.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

So no one is angry that they just ruined 2K11?


----------



## edwardcyh

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Blue Magic said:


> The Cavs brought him little to no help. How did they bend over for him again? Sure last season they tried in desperation, but LeBron made them great, not vice-versa. Without him that team barely limps into the playoffs every year, as opposed to having the top record. Dont be mistaken, the Heat will run in the East.


They (the cavs) bent over and took one up their rear end. 

Of course Lebron made the cavs great. I am not stating otherwise, and I also agree Heat will dominate with him.



... still... I think what he did to his old team isn't right.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



futuristxen said:


> I'm good with this. My fiance is from Miami, and she's tight with people who have some box seats down there. So I'm straight. I'm a Lebron James fan, but I'll keep up with the Cavs too. Invested too much in those players to not be interested to see what happens there.


South Beach represent! By the way LeBron James is a freaking beast of a basketball player. I'm definitely going to be rocking in the ra ra section for James, Wade, Bosh, and the Heat.

And good riddance Ohio Cavs.


----------



## Marcus13

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

This makes me want to be a Cleveland fan...I officially end our feud wit yall


----------



## Marcus13

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

So depending on how the CBA re-forms, this could be a truly amazing feat. Teams may not be able to sign three max level players anymore, but they'd be grandfathered in and have a leg up on everyone for the next five years


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

23AJ has lost more respect then Lebron James tonight, wow talk about being a complete frontrunner.


----------



## HB

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

On one hand he went to a team that will win championships at some point or the other, on the other hand all that talk of being the greatest of all time has evaporated into thin air. For one, the Heat is Wade's team, he's not winning multiple MVPs on that team with Wade and Bosh. Those individual accolades are gone, maybe all nba teams, but MVP no more.

Sad what happens to Cleveland now, the city has been devastated. Gilbert should sell the team.


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Hyperion said:


> So no one is angry that they just ruined 2K11?


Nobody with any balls would choose that team.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

All the Miami Heat fans here know I have supported the Heat for years, and been a fan of the organization since their inception into the NBA.

Now let the Miami Heat Dynasty years begin, and it wont be easy, which will make it that much more exciting. The East has the power in the NBA, The Boston Celtics, Miami Heat, and Orlando Magic. Take that take that take that.


----------



## ChosenFEW

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Hyperion said:


> So no one is angry that they just ruined 2K11?



lmao i was just thinking that..... they just ruined competitive online basketball games for the next 5+ years


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



23AJ said:


> South Beach represent! By the way LeBron James is a freaking beast of a basketball player. I'm definitely going to be rocking in the ra ra section for James, Wade, Bosh, and the Heat.
> 
> And good riddance Ohio Cavs.


We can be friends now!!! hahaha.


----------



## Blue

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



futuristxen said:


> We can be friends now!!! hahaha.


Future, looking for a new team to support? How bout the Magic?  Or are you still a Lebron fan?


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Seanzie said:


> If you honestly think this team isn't going to win multiple championships probably starting next year, I don't know what to tell you.


That we're right? 

Because they're not, and they wont. And LeBron just sabotaged himself, he will not and cannot be considered a GOAT with a team like this. He can retire with 9 rings in the next 9 seasons and no one will think he's the GOAT if he averages 20-5-5. You can't go from dominating the league to just a cog in a machine and still be considered a GOAT no matter how many championships you win.


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

23AJ had a golden oppurtunity to be a heel..he would've had more support than ever...but no..he goes face...


----------



## Blue

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Btw, Joe Johnson is officially the highest-paid free agent signing this offseason. Hawks = FAIL.


----------



## Geaux Tigers

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

My insides are so conflicted. My increasing distaste for Lebron is clashing with my already present love for Wade.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



futuristxen said:


> We can be friends now!!! hahaha.



Fast friends indeed!


:funny: The Heat are amazing now, they have freaking LeBron James, D Wade, and Chris Bosh. This is like a freaking dream. Plus the state of Florida still has Howard and the Magic. Times are good, very good for the NBA. 

Let the Heat Dynasty run all over the NBA for years to come.


----------



## ChosenFEW

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Blue Magic said:


> Btw, Joe Johnson is officially the highest-paid free agent signing this offseason. Hawks = FAIL.



the hawks stay losing on all levels


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Dre™;6317309 said:


> 23AJ had a golden oppurtunity to be a heel..he would've had more support than ever...but no..he goes face...


I'm not an opportunist. As you see now, my disdain for James, had more to do with the Ohio Cavs, and some of his undeserved media attention. Like I said though, that's all in the rearview mirror. 

Hear me now, the writing is on the wall for all. The Miami Heat will win at least 6 championships with The New Big Three.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*He gave the CAVS 7 good years ON and OFF the court!*

Good for LeBron. I thought for sure he would stay with Cleveland, but for the longest I've believed it was time for him to branch out and expand this horizons. It was time for him to move on ... not just to win but to experience living in other parts of the US.

I agree with Wilbon and Jon B, we may not see the LeBron game we've come to know. Unless, God forbid, Wade is injured as to me ... he's injury prone.

Like Jon B, I would rather have seen LeBron go to Chicago.

Now this is over ... time for him to go on vacation and for us to prepare for a real East vs West (Heat and Celtics vs. Lakers). Can't think of another West team at the moment.


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

*walks off gingerly from chair shot*


----------



## MojoPin

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

3 vs 6

definately a championship.. GUARANTEED

LOL


----------



## tone wone

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

From MVP of the league to rich man's Josh Smith.

Wow.


----------



## Prolific Scorer

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

It's ok disgruntled "Cavs fans", Dwight will take out LeBron again in the Postseason this year. This time though there won't be excuses about his supporting cast. 

Have fun in the regular season Miami Heat..


----------



## Thuloid

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



23AJ said:


> Hear me now, the writing is on the wall for all. The Miami Heat will win at least 6 championships with The New Big Three.


If you're going for absurd exaggerations, why not predict an even dozen championships for this group?


----------



## thaKEAF

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

I am now officially a Miami heat fan.

*waits for the Heat board posters to accept me*

Yeah that team is gonna be a bitch in 2k11..i won't even play against anybody who picks em and you know everybody is gonna pick them. In the end he has to do what he has to do to win and be happy. Whos to say that everybody has to be like Jordan or whoever and win their rings a certain way..let him make his own legacy his own way with whoever he wants..congrats to him. 

:laugh: @ them saying on ESPN Radio there's been reports of riots and **** in Cleveland..is it that serious? Well I guess when his replacement is Ryan Gomes and Randy Foye maybe it is.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



23AJ said:


> *I'm not an opportunist*. As you see now, my disdain for James, had more to do with the Ohio Cavs, and some of his undeserved media attention. Like I said though, that's all in the rearview mirror.
> 
> Hear me now, the writing is on the wall for all. The Miami Heat will win at least 6 championships with The New Big Three.


:funny:


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

That's like picking the Patriots in Madden 08. I don't respect it.


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Hyperion said:


> So no one is angry that they just ruined 2K11?


Actually one of the first things I said when I heard reports he was signing with the Heat hours ago. I was never much into the online play, so it doesn't piss me off too much, but the winner is going to be decided by which team's LeBron/Wade gets hotter. 

And I smh at 23AJ...seriously guy?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Thuloid said:


> If you're going for absurd exaggerations, why not predict an even dozen championships for this group?


No exaggerations. Those are my expectations. They have the talent, and the age of their stars will give them the ability to get to the Finals consecutively the next 5-7 years. 

I understand if your a Cavs guy though, why you have sour grapes.

Now Later.


----------



## Adam

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



thaKEAF said:


> I am now officially a Miami heat fan.
> 
> *waits for the Heat board posters to accept me*
> 
> Yeah that team is gonna be a bitch in 2k11..i won't even play against anybody who picks em and you know everybody is gonna pick them. In the end he has to do what he has to do to win and be happy. Whos to say that everybody has to be like Jordan or whoever and win their rings a certain way..let him make his own legacy his own way with whoever he wants..congrats to him.
> 
> :laugh: @ them saying on ESPN Radio there's been reports of riots and **** in Cleveland..is it that serious? Well I guess when his replacement is Ryan Gomes and Randy Foye maybe it is.


I'm here to announce that the Heat board is drafting Keaf. We're very excited to add this piece. Keaf is a poster we've had our eyes on for a while.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Another announcement ...

JIM GRAY has officially dropped Kobe and is now in love with LeBron. Those droling looks says it all.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

I usually disagree with everything Jon Barry says but he was right. It's disappointing to realize that these 3 guys are going to have to step back, neither of them will probably ever dominate the way they used to ever again and that kind of sucks.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



23AJ said:


> Fast friends indeed!
> 
> 
> :funny: The Heat are amazing now, they have freaking LeBron James, D Wade, and Chris Bosh. This is like a freaking dream. Plus the state of Florida still has Howard and the Magic. Times are good, very good for the NBA.
> 
> Let the Heat Dynasty run all over the NBA for years to come.


I bet Orlando make a deal for Chris Paul now. Then you have Boston with still 4 stars. The Bulls adding Boozer. And the Lakers who have five players with the best at their position.

The NBA is back really. This is how it was in the 80s. Superteams in every conference. Even the Thunder are pretty loaded.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Lmao, and I thought we had bandwagons fans.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Miami heat win 62 games in the regular season, win the championship, and LeBron James is the Finals MVP. 

Book it.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Did anyone else notice or was it just me. Did LeBron seem to go out of his way to mention his Mom several times? So as to dispell the rumor and at least to let us know the rumor had no impact on his love and respect for his mom.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Nightmute said:


> I usually disagree with everything Jon Barry says but he was right. It's disappointing to realize that these 3 guys are going to have to step back, neither of them will probably ever dominate the way they used to ever again and that kind of sucks.


I disagree. I think they'll fit perfectly and we'll finally get to see Lebron the playmaker. He could finally be unleashed as a fastbreaking pointguard. Average around 18 ppg at a high efficiency with 10 rpg and 10 apg. DWade could be around 25ppg, Bosh at 20ppg. 

I think they compliment each other well. Plus Bosh can do the pick and pop with either of them.

A DWade/Lebron pick and roll is going to be nuts.


----------



## MojoPin

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

This reminds me of the time when the Lakers had Payton, Kobe, Malone, and Shaq, and everyone was saying "automatic championship." Gonna be a funny year.


----------



## Lynx

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



23AJ said:


> Miami heat win 62 games in the regular season, win the championship, and LeBron James is the Finals MVP.
> 
> Book it.


If this doesn't happen in 2010-11 season, then you are :banned:

:laugh:


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Adam said:


> I'm here to announce that the Heat board is drafting Keaf. We're very excited to add this piece. Keaf is a poster we've had our eyes on for a while.


I want to join in ... I want to be a Heat fan!!!:baseldance:


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Adam said:


> I'm here to announce that the Heat board is drafting Keaf. We're very excited to add this piece. Keaf is a poster we've had our eyes on for a while.












LeBron and Keaf to Miami!

23AJ the Lebron homer!

What twist do we have next??


----------



## Lynx

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



MojoPin said:


> This reminds me of the time when the Lakers had Payton, Kobe, Malone, and Shaq, and everyone was saying "automatic championship." Gonna be a funny year.


Hated signing of Payton. 2004 was awful. Sometimes too much of a good thing is never good.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Well, it is going to be long long year.....


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

That Heat team is gong to win some championships, I think it's hard to argue against that. And truthfully it's hard to really say for certain how they'll play together, but I don't think they win it all next year. Obviously they have until the trade deadline in the middle of the season to really finalize the roster, but they are _seriously_ lacking some size. Lakers and Magic will still be a tough match-up, and the Thunder are getting better fast (and bigger fast, even though I don't think they deserve to be in this conversation, they are fun to talk about).


----------



## thaKEAF

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Adam said:


> I'm here to announce that the Heat board is drafting Keaf. We're very excited to add this piece. Keaf is a poster we've had our eyes on for a while.


:cabbagepatch:


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Game3525 said:


> Lmao, and I thought we had bandwagons fans.


You DO have bandwagon fans, but now they are Miami bandwagon fans ...


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



MojoPin said:


> This reminds me of the time when the Lakers had Payton, Kobe, Malone, and Shaq, and everyone was saying "automatic championship." Gonna be a funny year.


I don't think it's even remotely the same, because Payton and Malone were really old at that point.

These guys are all in their primes.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Dre™ said:


> LeBron and Keaf to Miami!
> 
> 23AJ the Lebron homer!
> 
> What twist do we have next??



lol.


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



GregOden said:


> I don't think it's even remotely the same, because Payton and Malone were really old at that point.
> 
> These guys are all in their primes.


...


----------



## O2K

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Lebron knew this decision from the olympics. I thought it was false but its true. They talked about this a while ago. And when CP3 is available, he's going to Miami. Book it.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



GregOden said:


> Actually one of the first things I said when I heard reports he was signing with the Heat hours ago. I was never much into the online play, so it doesn't piss me off too much, but the winner is going to be decided by which team's LeBron/Wade gets hotter.
> 
> And I smh at 23AJ...seriously guy?


And that's the problem. It's a glorified version of Bird v Magic or Double Dribble without the awesomeness.



Dre™ said:


> Nobody with any balls would choose that team.


The world is filled with the ball-less



ChosenFEW said:


> lmao i was just thinking that..... they just ruined competitive online basketball games for the next 5+ years


I am so upset about this. I mean, I could weather the storm with my Jake Voshkul against the Celtics in 2009, but he's retired now! I don't have anyone but my David Lee and if he goes to a team I hate, I can't use him anymore! Well, at least my Suns got rid of Amare.


----------



## Thuloid

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



23AJ said:


> No exaggerations. Those are my expectations. They have the talent, and the age of their stars will give them the ability to get to the Finals consecutively the next 5-7 years.
> 
> I understand if your a Cavs guy though, why you have sour grapes.
> 
> Now Later.


Not a Cavs guy at all, nothing against LeBron. But if he wanted to win, I think Chicago would have made more sense. 3 awesome guys plus 9 at the league minimum does not equal a superior playoff team. But I think IF they can somehow grab some really good vets/role players, they have maybe a 3 year window. I'll believe it when I see an actual roster, not "OMG LEBRON + WADE + BOSH + MYSTERY DUDES"


----------



## f22egl

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Knick_Killer31 said:


> Lebron James can never be mentioned in the GOAT conversation at the end of his career due to this decision.


Bill Russell gets mentioned with his 10 rings.


----------



## MojoPin

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



GregOden said:


> I don't think it's even remotely the same, because Payton and Malone were really old at that point.
> 
> These guys are all in their primes.


The point is: No bench = No championship.


----------



## f22egl

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



ChosenFEW said:


> why is everyone freaking out about dynasty?
> 
> 
> this is the same team minus a couple superstars who won the bronze in the world championships


Larry Brown isn't their coach who will put them on the bench.


----------



## ATLien

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Joe Johnson got a bigger contract than LeBron. What the ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## O2K

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

also, whats the under/over when Riley will take over the reigns?

i say mid january


----------



## f22egl

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



Blue Magic said:


> The Cavs brought him little to no help. How did they bend over for him again? Sure last season they tried in desperation, but LeBron made them great, not vice-versa. Without him that team barely limps into the playoffs every year, as opposed to having the top record. Dont be mistaken, the Heat will run in the East.


If LeBron had given assurances that he was staying in Cleveland last season, the Cavs could have gotten Ron Artest or Trevor Ariza last offseason instead of Anthony Parker and Jamario Moon.


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



f22egl said:


> Bill Russell gets mentioned with his 10 rings.


Bill Russell also has career averages of 15.1 ppg, 22.5 rpg, and 4.3 APG....and won like 5 MVP's.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

So.....are we off the hook for stealing Pau?


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

:laugh: They're about to get Shelley Smith ****ed up..first time she says "Lebron" she's gonna get jumped...


----------



## Spaceman Spiff

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Game3525 said:


> So.....are we off the hook for stealing Pau?


No.... only way to get off is if the Rockets trade Jarred Jeffries and a 2nd round pick for Wade, Lebron, and Bosh.


----------



## f22egl

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Hyperion said:


> So no one is angry that they just ruined 2K11?


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



MojoPin said:


> The point is: No bench = No championship.


I agree, I actually said a couple posts beforehand that I don't know if they're winning next year because of a serious lack of size. However, they also have until the trade deadline of next season to really finalize that roster, nobody has any idea what that roster is going to look like come playoff time. 

At the same time, if you have 2 of the top 5 players and a potential top 10 player (I consider him to be one now, and I'm sure once he puts up monster stats this year a lot of other people will buy into the thought as well) on the same team, you have a _serious_ advantage. LeBron and Wade can make average players look a lot better than they actually are.


----------



## Nightmute

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



futuristxen said:


> I disagree. I think they'll fit perfectly and we'll finally get to see Lebron the playmaker. He could finally be unleashed as a fastbreaking pointguard. Average around 18 ppg at a high efficiency with 10 rpg and 10 apg. DWade could be around 25ppg, Bosh at 20ppg.
> 
> I think they compliment each other well. Plus Bosh can do the pick and pop with either of them.
> 
> A DWade/Lebron pick and roll is going to be nuts.


He wont average a triple double. And no he wont dominate the league like he has the past 2 seasons. And that will hurt his legacy.


----------



## Lynx

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



> We believe in this team, this organization, this community, and what we will do to compete at the highest level. We believe in the new coach and leader we have in Byron Scott, and the world class basketball organization and positive and strong culture we’ve established. Dan Gilbert and our ownership group are firmly committed to reaching our goals and succeeding on the court and in the community, at the highest level.”
> 
> “Our fans stepped up and showed their support, to a degree unlike anywhere else. We are fortunate to have the support of the best fans in the NBA. That passion and dedication will be rewarded. We will work relentlessly to continue to build a team that will contend. A team that will win championships. We are all competitors and our one goal is to win, that and Dan Gilbert and our ownership team’s commitment and investment in this organization and community are constants that will not change.”



*Cavs Release Statement: No Mention of LeBron*


----------



## SheriffKilla

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

10 championship in a row

OR

They will be around 3rd seed in the east and trade Bosh before the trade line


----------



## ChosenFEW

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

the heat board will be like the old nj nets board when they first got vince carter

bandwagoners make me sick.... ugh!


----------



## thaKEAF

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



ChosenFEW said:


> the heat board will be like the old nj nets board when they first got vince carter
> 
> bandwagoners make me sick.... ugh!


What about all of the heat fans who hated Lebron that now love him? 

We're all bandwagoners now 


It's 2010 and 23AJ and Futuristxen are uniting forces.


----------



## RR 823

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Looking forward to see Phil and Kobe dismantle this Holy Trinity for their 14th and 6th rings respectively.


----------



## myst

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



futuristxen said:


> What about all of the heat fans who hated Lebron that now love him?
> 
> We're all bandwagoners now
> 
> 
> It's 2010 and 23AJ and Futuristxen are uniting forces.


I LOVE that Lebron chose Miami, but I'm still not sure if I'm a Lebron fan because I don't know if he will actually embrace the organization like Zo, UD, Hardaway and Wade, or if he is just a hired gun. Once I figure that out then I will decide if I'm going to get a Lebron jersey.


----------



## afobisme

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Thuloid said:


> Not a Cavs guy at all, nothing against LeBron. But if he wanted to win, I think Chicago would have made more sense. 3 awesome guys plus 9 at the league minimum does not equal a superior playoff team. But I think IF they can somehow grab some really good vets/role players, they have maybe a 3 year window. I'll believe it when I see an actual roster, not "OMG LEBRON + WADE + BOSH + MYSTERY DUDES"


with each coming year, they get to add an MLE contract. it's not all minimum guys.


----------



## Dre

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Seeing Ohioans burning LeBron jerseys makes it pretty easy to see why few players have one team loyalty anymore. Seriously?


----------



## Thuloid

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



afobisme said:


> with each coming year, they get to add an MLE contract. it's not all minimum guys.


So we're conceding this isn't close to a "win now" situation? So, what, year 3 before they are considered favorites? Lots can happen between now and then.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Dre™;6317511 said:


> Seeing Ohioans burning LeBron jerseys makes it pretty easy to see why few players have one team loyalty anymore. Seriously?


Yeah, there is no excuse for that. But it has got to suck that the hometown kid won't even stick around.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Dre™ said:


> Seeing Ohioans burning LeBron jerseys makes it pretty easy to see why few players have one team loyalty anymore. Seriously?


Dude, he isn't doing a sign & trade, he just ****ed the Cadavaliers in the ass. I can understand him leaving Cleveland, that team will be fortunate to win 30 games next year without him. But basically ensuring that the Cavs can't even rebuild? I don't blame the Cavs fans one little bit.


----------



## ATLien

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Dre™ said:


> Seeing Ohioans burning LeBron jerseys makes it pretty easy to see why few players have one team loyalty anymore. Seriously?


Umm whats the problem here. I expected that & worse actually.


----------



## O2K

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Thuloid said:


> So we're conceding this isn't close to a "win now" situation? So, what, year 3 before they are considered favorites? Lots can happen between now and then.


if its 3 years won't wade be like 31? well atleast then lebron will be entering his prime.


----------



## Dre

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

So all the 7 years he spent giving 110% is thrown away on one decision? They should respect his decision, you don't have to go burning the man's jersey on TV. That just let me know fans really don't give a **** about you.


----------



## Dre

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



ATLien said:


> Umm whats the problem here.


The fact that you could say something like that fits you right in with those guys.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



E.H. Munro said:


> Dude, he isn't doing a sign & trade, he just ****ed the Cadavaliers in the ass. I can understand him leaving Cleveland, that team will be fortunate to win 30 games next year without him. But basically ensuring that the Cavs can't even rebuild? I don't blame the Cavs fans one little bit.


Damn, he isn't doing a sign and trade? That nearly as bad as Boozer lying to a blind man...


----------



## Thuloid

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



O2K said:


> if its 3 years won't wade be like 31? well atleast then lebron will be entering his prime.


That was my thought too. And I don't think Wade is going to be one of those SG that has a nice, long, slow decline.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Thuloid said:


> That was my thought too. And I don't think Wade is going to be one of those SG that has a nice, long, slow decline.


He plays with Iverson reckless abandon, so he may get 12 years out of that body.....


----------



## jokeaward

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

JVG saying the journey to a championship is key.

He won one?


----------



## thaKEAF

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Oh yeah and lets be reality..where were all these Cav fans the season before they got him? I see all these dumbasses on RealCavsTalk calling him all these names and saying he did NOTHING for the organization. If that is true..why the big deal now that he's leaving?


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Dre™ said:


> So all the 7 years he spent giving 110% is thrown away on one decision? They should respect his decision, you don't have to go burning the man's jersey on TV. That just let me know fans really don't give a **** about you.


You know, he could have agreed to a sign & trade, and given the Cavs the chance to rebuild via a traded player exception. Instead the Cavs are capped out with a roster full of garbage that no one wants. They literally have to wait 18 months before they can _start_ rebuilding. There was no call for that.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Game3525 said:


> Damn, he isn't doing a sign and trade? That nearly as bad as Boozer lying to a blind man...


He'd love to do one, but there's no way the Cavs do a sign and trade and help out lebron.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



E.H. Munro said:


> You know, he could have agreed to a sign & trade, and given the Cavs the chance to rebuild via a traded player exception. Instead the Cavs are capped out with a roster full of garbage that no one wants. They literally have to wait 18 months before they can _start_ rebuilding. There was no call for that.


The Cavs already said they wouldn't help him leave Cleveland. A sign and trade makes him more money more than it helps Cleveland. All Miami has to give them is a trade exception and Beasley.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



futuristxen said:


> He'd love to do one, but there's no way the Cavs do a sign and trade and help out lebron.


Why?

The Cavs want to rebuild as soon as possible.


----------



## ChosenFEW

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

IMO

no one should feel bad for cleveland. This was a team who tanked to get lebron. The coach even admitted and thought he was going to get the chance to coach lebron but he was fired lol


----------



## Dre

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



E.H. Munro said:


> You know, he could have agreed to a sign & trade, and given the Cavs the chance to rebuild via a traded player exception. Instead the Cavs are capped out with a roster full of garbage that no one wants. They literally have to wait 18 months before they can _start_ rebuilding. There was no call for that.


Noone even knows what the contracts look like..and the news about Miami and Toronto negotiating didn't come out until the next day.

The particulars aren't ironed out by any stretch.


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*


----------



## Game3525

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



futuristxen said:


> He'd love to do one, but there's no way the Cavs do a sign and trade and help out lebron.



On second thoughts, you may be right. ****.........

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/gilbert_letter_100708.html


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



futuristxen said:


> The Cavs already said they wouldn't help him leave Cleveland. A sign and trade makes him more money more than it helps Cleveland. All Miami has to give them is a trade exception and Beasley.


Being forced to wait until February of 2012 to rebuild is a better decision? I just don't see it.


----------



## thaKEAF

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

"I PERSONALLY GUARANTEE THAT THE CLEVELAND CAVALIERS WILL WIN AN NBA CHAMPIONSHIP BEFORE THE SELF-TITLED FORMER ‘KING’ WINS ONE" - Dan Gilbert

:laugh:


----------



## MLKG

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

What pisses me off more than anything is this is happening in Miami. The worst, most bandwagonesque sports town in America gets the most exciting basketball team of the last 25 years. 

Also I can't believe that Lebron just went on national TV, spread his legs, and showed America his gaping vagina. What a freaking loser! At 25 years old the best basketball player of his generation is already bandwagoning for titles!? Maybe Miami is the right place for this afterall.

At least the NBA has a mega-heel team again. I am rooting so hard for this to end in miserable failure.


----------



## ATLien

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

I keep hearing Wade, LeBron, Bosh are taking less than max. In the end, aren't they only really reducing their annual salary by $1M? Not really that big of a deal


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Classy Cavs fans get what they deserve.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Cavs owner is just pissed their team went down by about 200M without Lebron.


----------



## jokeaward

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

How would the trade exception do in their best case scenario? Aren't they going to be in cap hell?


----------



## The One

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Heated said:


> Classy Cavs fans get what they deserve.


I doesn't help that Lebron shot the Cavs in the knee cap on National Television. I'm pretty sure they would not be this mad if Lebron left the normal way: In Private, and then hold a normal press conference with team *after you sign with them.*


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



ChosenFEW said:


> no one should feel bad for cleveland. This was a team who tanked to get lebron. The coach even admitted and thought he was going to get the chance to coach lebron but he was fired lol


Tanked? Are you seriously telling us that the Ricky Davis/Darius Miles Cavs were secretly better than the 17 wins they racked up? No sir, I just don't see it.


----------



## 29380

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

LOL at Scottie Pippen being the top trend topic on twitter.


----------



## The One

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Wow. Cavs owner just put a curse on Lebron!


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



jokeaward said:


> How would the trade exception do in their best case scenario? Aren't they going to be in cap hell?


They could collect draft picks by helping other teams make trades (as OKC & Utah have done). They could trade for players without having to send back salary (which makes the process easier). Now the Cavs are screwed. They're capped out this year, so they can only add an MLE player, and what player is signing on to play for the Jamison/Williams Cavs? Not one that cares about winning, that's for sure. Their only prayer is that there isn't a lockout in 2012 and that they can deal Antawn Jamison's expiring deal for something. But if they can't? then they need to wait for the summer of 2012 to start rebuilding.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

The basketball gods may not be kind to Bosh and Lebron, I mean looked what happened to Brand in Philly lol.


----------



## Dre

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Game3525 said:


> The basketball gods may not be kind to Bosh and Lebron, I mean looked what happened to Brand in Philly lol.


Brand, the guy who snaked Baron Davis for the money 

vs. LeBron, Bosh and Wade who left money on the table to win...

I don't spend too much time wondering who'll have the better karma.


----------



## Blue

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Dwight's reaction to Cavs fans, on twitter:



> "Cmon cavs fans don't do that. That man went hard for y'all for 7 yrs. He doin what's best for him burning his jersey is messed up. That's bs. Burning his jersey. That man tried. Wow"


lol, cant say i disagree. Dwight is crazy, but all i can say to Dwight is i hope he is putting in work this summer... We need him in 24/7 beast mode from here on out, for us to even have a chance against this team. 2 of the top 3 players, and 3 of top 10(imo), just went to the division rival. ****in unreal/


----------



## Thuloid

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Dwight doesn't get it. They'd be mad if he'd just left. But the 1 hour TV extravaganza to rub it in their faces? Anyone who is a serious fan of any team should understand this.


----------



## ChosenFEW

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



E.H. Munro said:


> Tanked? Are you seriously telling us that the Ricky Davis/Darius Miles Cavs were secretly better than the 17 wins they racked up? No sir, I just don't see it.



*former coach lucas*

"They trade all our guys away and we go real young, and the goal was to get LeBron and also to sell the team,'' Lucas said in an interview with FanHouse

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/01/13/john-lucas-cavs-tanked-to-get-lebron/


edit: another quote for those who dont want to click

*Lucas said he was told during the 2002-03 season to use young players, and was discouraged from using veterans such as forward Tyrone Hill and point guard Bimbo Coles. *


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Thuloid said:


> Dwight doesn't get it. They'd be mad if he'd just left. But the 1 hour TV extravaganza to rub it in their faces? Anyone who is a serious fan of any team should understand this.


I think the one hour goodbye was better than in private. It will allow Cleveland to get back onto the market and no one will be confused and asking their friend, "Wait, aren't the Cavs with LeBron?" then the friend will have to awkwardly explain that they broke up. This way there's no confusion.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



ChosenFEW said:


> *former coach lucas*
> 
> "They trade all our guys away and we go real young, and the goal was to get LeBron and also to sell the team,'' Lucas said in an interview with FanHouse
> 
> http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/01/13/john-lucas-cavs-tanked-to-get-lebron/


Except that they didn't "trade all their guys away". The 29 win 2001 Cavs traded away the guy that told them that he wasn't signing an extension with them under any circumstances, 'Dre Miller and the immortal Wesley Person (who dropped off the cliff after Cleveland, fortunately for Wes it was a short fall from mediocrity), while adding Darius Miles & Carlos Boozer. They just sucked.


----------



## ChosenFEW

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



E.H. Munro said:


> Except that they didn't "trade all their guys away". The 29 win 2001 Cavs traded away the guy that told them that he wasn't signing an extension with them under any circumstances, 'Dre Miller and the immortal Wesley Person (who dropped off the cliff after Cleveland, fortunately for Wes it was a short fall from mediocrity), while adding Darius Miles & Carlos Boozer. They just sucked.



yeah they were bad but im sure they could've won more games.

i edited my last post with this.

Lucas said he was told during the 2002-03 season to use young players, and was discouraged from using veterans such as forward Tyrone Hill and point guard Bimbo Coles. 

there was an effort to tank by management even with the bad team they had. Managements objective for that season was to lose games not win (i.e. TANK)


----------



## Thuloid

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Hyperion said:


> I think the one hour goodbye was better than in private. It will allow Cleveland to get back onto the market and no one will be confused and asking their friend, "Wait, aren't the Cavs with LeBron?" then the friend will have to awkwardly explain that they broke up. This way there's no confusion.


I can't wait for the drunken hookup 6 months from now. Poor Cleveland will hope maybe they're back together, and Wade will be pretty upset, but in the end everyone will realize it just can't be.


----------



## The One

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Hyperion said:


> I think the one hour goodbye was better than in private. It will allow Cleveland to get back onto the market and no one will be confused and asking their friend, "Wait, aren't the Cavs with LeBron?" then the friend will have to awkwardly explain that they broke up. This way there's no confusion.


 disagree. Even if Lebron did it in private everybody wll still know he would be leaving. It just would have been less.....classless.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



ChosenFEW said:


> yeah they were bad but im sure they could've won more games.


How? By holding onto 'Dre Miller and losing him for nothing? They took a gamble that Darius Miles would turn into the player that everyone thought he would be coming out of high school. If Miles had actually put it together they would have won more.



ChosenFEW said:


> Lucas said he was told during the 2002-03 season to use young players, and was discouraged from using veterans such as forward Tyrone Hill and point guard Bimbo Coles.


Because both players were done and the Cavs wanted the much better Carlos Boozer and their _number one pick_, the sixth overall to play. Both Coles and Hill were in their mid 30s at the time and both were done. Coles hadn't played a full season in years and Hill had had one healthy season in the six seasons running up to that year. Neither player was healthy that year. So, no, neither would have made a difference. You could argue that long term incompetence brought about the situation, but forget the evil plot nonsense. The actual evidence doesn't support it.


----------



## ChosenFEW

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

I dont know dude..... when the frigging coach admits that the team tanked and you still argue no than I guess nothing I say will change your mind on that


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



ChosenFEW said:


> I dont know dude..... when the frigging coach admits that the team tanked and you still argue no than I guess nothing I say will change your mind on that


If John Lucas said that the Cavs had rigged the lottery would you believe him? Hill and Coles were 34 and injured, and played the same position as Carlos Boozer & DaJuan Wagner. If Lucas had been playing Hill over Boozer you'd have a better case. Hill played five games the following season, his final in the NBA. Coles managed to play a whopping 22. (Leaving aside the fact that they dealt his corpse to Boston midseason in 2003.) Both guys were D-O-N-E done.


----------



## ChosenFEW

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

I take the word of someone who was actually involved with the team instead of a fan anyday


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

I see, so the fact that Ty Hill was actually injured and finished as a player doesn't count? Only the claims of a guy angry about being fired? I watched Bimbo after we got him (the very year in question), he was so gawdawful that Jim O'Brien benched him in favour of the immortal JR Bremer. No doubt, though, the 2003 Celtics were looking to lose games, right? I mean they benched the perennial all star Bimbo Coles. :lol:


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Thuloid said:


> Dwight doesn't get it. They'd be mad if he'd just left. But the 1 hour TV extravaganza to rub it in their faces? Anyone who is a serious fan of any team should understand this.


The "One Hour TV Extravaganza" as you call it was to make money for the "Boys & Girls Clubs" INCLUDING Cleveland.

You all have become nauseating. You can't even relate to his position. Just words from a keyboard without any experience. 

The man has been a great rolemodel for the league on and off court and you still complain. Any drug problems? Any criminal problems? Broken any laws? Unethical? Damn? He's only one person and cannot play for every team in the League.


----------



## MarioChalmers

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Heated said:


> Classy Cavs fans get what they deserve.


I think they're just happy for LeBron, converting his old Cleveland jerseys into 'Heat' jerseys. Yeah, I said it. 

:vuvuzela:


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Game3525 said:


> The basketball gods may not be kind to Bosh and Lebron, I mean looked what happened to Brand in Philly lol.


The Gods may not be kind to Cleveland for how they have treated "The Chosen One". Talk about bad karma ... the guy gave them 110% til the end. Carried the team on his back to the Playoffs for years and they wouldn't get him the proper help.

I think you and the Cavs Owner should watch out for The Gods and not worry about LeBron ... he doesn't have negative motives at all. He has been a giver and now it is time for himself.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

If the owner was the one responsible for not taking a TPE for James, he deserves every loss that team takes. I do feel badly for Cleveland fans, though. Gilbert's going to sell that team within five years and they're going to end up the new Supersonics.


----------



## afobisme

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Thuloid said:


> That was my thought too. And I don't think Wade is going to be one of those SG that has a nice, long, slow decline.


out of lebron, wade, kobe, and melo.. i think wade's going to decline the fastest. he's short and plays like a pinball. once you're older and lose your footspeed.. you only have your height.


----------



## thaKEAF

*Re: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



LetUsPlay said:


> Your location is Memphis? This seems to be a form of "band-waggoning".


that you mdizz


----------



## jokeaward

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



E.H. Munro said:


> They could collect draft picks by helping other teams make trades (as OKC & Utah have done). They could trade for players without having to send back salary (which makes the process easier). Now the Cavs are screwed. They're capped out this year, so they can only add an MLE player, and what player is signing on to play for the Jamison/Williams Cavs? Not one that cares about winning, that's for sure. Their only prayer is that there isn't a lockout in 2012 and that they can deal Antawn Jamison's expiring deal for something. But if they can't? then they need to wait for the summer of 2012 to start rebuilding.


Oh, so they could use it in more than one transaction? I forgot about that. I remember Minnesota trading the husk of Terrell Brandon, Chris Mills was traded all the time (they probably didn't call him :laugh: )... salary matching is so wonky.


----------



## EGarrett

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Dre™ said:


> So all the 7 years he spent giving 110% is thrown away on one decision? They should respect his decision, you don't have to go burning the man's jersey on TV. That just let me know fans really don't give a **** about you.


...if the fans didn't care they wouldn't be burning his jersey.


----------



## Basel

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*


----------



## Basel

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*


----------



## Tooeasy

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Basel said:


>


 so long as im not the only one who feels a little soured by this situation then im happy. Also surprising that there wasn't a massive bonfire of lebron jerseys visible on that overhead map in ohio.


----------



## jokeaward

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Oh. Wyoming.

Everyone likes the idea of Lebron and what he might be. But they don't actually want a team player who wants to join some friends.


----------



## Basel

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

http://kissmyasslebron.bigcartel.com/

:laugh:


----------



## Tooeasy

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



Basel said:


> http://kissmyasslebron.bigcartel.com/
> 
> :laugh:











so chilly


----------



## eddymac

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

That was a punk move by LeBron he should have stayed in Cleveland and try to win with a team built around him, and it wasn't like the Cavs weren't close to a championship. I feel bad for Cleveland, that organization bent over backwards for LeBron they did everything to keep him happy, they tried to make moves even under certain restrictions, guys not wanting to go to Cleveland because they weren't sure if Lebron is gonna commit to the Cavs long term.


----------



## lakeshows

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



jmk said:


> NOPE.
> 
> 
> 
> NOPE.
> 
> 
> 
> NOPE.
> 
> LOL. They couldn't trade him for a scrub, suddenly they're picking up a future 1st for him?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of those things are even close to being likely to happen.





lakeshows said:


> Yeah you're totally right. Beasely can't play in the NBA and they can't even get a future 2nd rounder for him. LOLS.
> 
> Keep believing that.
> 
> And no one ever signs for 1-2 mil less per year to play with other players they want to play with. EVER. LIKE IT'S NEVER HAPPENED EVER BEFORE. EVER.
> 
> Good points.


GG JMK. GG.

Yep they were never going to be able to dump Beasely for a 2nd rounder and Wade, Lebron and Bosh would never sign for less than the max. NEVER. NO CHANCE. NONE OF THOSE THINGS ARE GOING TO HAPPEN.


oh wait they both actually happened. Good job. keep up the solid posting.


----------



## Ben

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

Don't see how it's a punk move by LeBron going to play with two of his best mates and win championships.


----------



## MohamedMagic

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*

It's a great move for LeBron. The guy wants to win and he wants to win now, going to Miami gives him the best chance to win RIGHT NOW.

For the NBA as a whole, it would have been better to see him in New York or Chicago. Or stay in Cleveland. It would have been better to see a more even distribution of talent around the league. Also, we're going to be deprived of the cold-blooded Wade or Lebron, they can't both take over a game if they're on the same team. A few years ago when Cleveland played Miami it was basically LeBron vs Wade in the 4th quarter, it was one of the most unbelievable 1 on 1 duels of all-time, now we're going to be deprived of enjoying two players bringing out the best in each other.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



The One said:


> disagree. Even if Lebron did it in private everybody wll still know he would be leaving. It just would have been less.....classless.


Yeah, but then LeBron couldn't go out the next day and start being with another team. Everyone would assume that he was cheating on Cleveland the whole time, which wasn't true. He just got fed up with being with Cleveland and Cleveland's cold, boring ways. Not only that, but the relationship wasn't going anywhere. 

All Cleveland would do would go watch tv and go to restaurants. They never took Lebron ANYWHERE. If Lebron wanted to go to the Finals, he had to drag Cleveland there and all Cleveland would do would bitch about the travel and the schedule and how there's no tv and force Lebron to cut his trip to the Finals short. He just wasn't getting what he needed from Cleveland. Then they'd run him down, tell him that they gave him lots of gifts and it's his fault if he's not getting what he needs out of the relationship. They tell him that they treat him good by giving him great gifts like All Stars and HOF players, but he knew that they were regifts, but he didn't complain. He smiled, hugged Cleveland and said "Thank you!" and truly meant it. LeBron was the best thing to happen to Cleveland and they messed it up by taking him for granted.


----------



## jokeaward

*Re: CONFIRMED: LeBron James signs with the Heat*



MohamedMagic said:


> For the NBA as a whole, it would have been better to see him in New York or Chicago. Or stay in Cleveland. It would have been better to see a more even distribution of talent around the league. Also, we're going to be deprived of the cold-blooded Wade or Lebron, they can't both take over a game if they're on the same team. A few years ago when Cleveland played Miami it was basically LeBron vs Wade in the 4th quarter, it was one of the most unbelievable 1 on 1 duels of all-time, now we're going to be deprived of enjoying two players bringing out the best in each other.


I would agree except for actual NBA history. Small oligarchies are usually the "golden era" setups. Boston and Wilt's teams with LA as the West winner, Celtics-Lakers '80s (with Philly and Detroit in for three rings), then Jordan and the Bulls. Talented teams like the Bucks, Suns, Jazz (for about 10 years) were more like footnotes. Then the Lakers and Spurs.


----------



## O2K

> GREENWICH, Conn., July 8, 1990 -- Michael Jordan announced on national television he's leaving Chicago to join the Detroit Pistons. Jordan said it was tough to bolt Chicago, where he was the most popular athlete in many years, because he thinks he has a better chance to win a championship if he plays with Pistons star Isiah Thomas. Jordan said by playing together, he and Thomas "won't have the pressure of going out and scoring 30 every night."
> 
> Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...g/07/08/lebron.event/index.html#ixzz0tCVGeNb1


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/michael_rosenberg/07/08/lebron.event/index.html


----------



## Luke

It was by far the best choice for LeBron, so I completely understand why he went to Miami even though that was the absolute last place I wanted him to go. I think that they are absolutely going to win titles during in tenure, but I don't think that theyt could take out the Lakers and maybe even the Magic at this stage. We'll see what happens.


----------



## Hyperion

I have just now figured it out. The NBA isn't a bunch of babies, the fans and reporters are. Holy crap! LeBron James gave Cleveland SEVEN YEARS to get their **** straight! SEVEN! Kobe gave the Lakers 2 1/2 before he wanted to be traded. How freaking hard is it to get ONE damn All Star sidekick? What, you think that Gilbert Arenas isn't on the market? So what if his contract is ridiculous. They paid Shaq 20million last year! They paid Larry Hughes 14mil! He took a team featuring Donyell Marshall with Big Z, Sasha Pavlovic, Drew Gooden, and Eric Snow as STARTERS! TO THE FINALS!

What the crap! Don't even attempt to say that that team was stacked or in any way talented. If it wasn't for James, they wouldn't have even sniffed the 8th seed.

At least Jordan had players who could do SOMETHING better than him on the basketball court (rebound and elbow people in the face). On top of that, his teammates would actually defend. When your team's best defender is Varejao, your team is not good (subtracting James).


----------



## Geaux Tigers

My whole world is turning upside down. I think I like Kobe now. I don't know how to cheer for D-Wade and not LeBron. Liking Cleveland is suddenly cool, and...gulp...Chris Paul throwing lobs to these 3 in 2012? I can't wait for College Football season where tradition such as the, Pac 10 and Big XII...oh ****!


----------



## Lynx

Nice (edited) thread title.

:lol:


----------



## Basel

Just noticed 23AJ's posts in this thread. :laugh:

What a dumbass.


----------



## Game3525

Basel said:


> Just noticed 23AJ's posts in this thread. :laugh:
> 
> What a dumbass.


You can add the Heat to his list of favorite teams along with the Nuggets, Lakers, Celtics, Magic. And when Chris Paul joins Orlando in 2012, he will become a fan of him as well.


----------



## Basel

Don't forget about the Blazers.


----------



## Basel




----------



## Ron

LOL.

Did they immediately take off those t-shirts?

Now THAT would have been a great follow up photo!

NOT.


----------



## Blue

LeBron James fathead going for: $17.41

http://www.fathead.com/nba/cleveland-cavaliers/lebron-james/



> Benedict Arnold V (January 14, *1741* [O.S. January 3, 1740] – June 14, 1801)


:rofl:


----------



## Game3525

Dan Gilbert has gone mad.......


----------



## Basel

:laugh:


----------



## Cap

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



23AJ said:


> LeBron James just earned a new fan. Welcome to the Miami Heat Dynasty years! Hell yeah, D Wade, Bosh, and LBJ going to run the NBA for the next 5-8 years.


I just threw up in my mouth a little.


----------



## croco

Hyperion said:


> I have just now figured it out. The NBA isn't a bunch of babies, the fans and reporters are. Holy crap! LeBron James gave Cleveland SEVEN YEARS to get their **** straight! SEVEN! Kobe gave the Lakers 2 1/2 before he wanted to be traded. How freaking hard is it to get ONE damn All Star sidekick? What, you think that Gilbert Arenas isn't on the market? So what if his contract is ridiculous. They paid Shaq 20million last year! They paid Larry Hughes 14mil! He took a team featuring Donyell Marshall with Big Z, Sasha Pavlovic, Drew Gooden, and Eric Snow as STARTERS! TO THE FINALS!
> 
> What the crap! Don't even attempt to say that that team was stacked or in any way talented. If it wasn't for James, they wouldn't have even sniffed the 8th seed.
> 
> At least Jordan had players who could do SOMETHING better than him on the basketball court (rebound and elbow people in the face). On top of that, his teammates would actually defend. When your team's best defender is Varejao, your team is not good (subtracting James).


Agreed.

It's not so much that I can't understand the frustration of Cleveland fans, but seven years is a looong time. There have been so many threads on this forum about the lack of a true second star on the Cavs. NBA Free Agency allows you to leave without compensation for the former team and that is what Lebron did.


----------



## HKF

"Save us Obi Wan Ke-Kobe, you're our only hope!"


----------



## Tragedy

This thread is too much. 23AJ is a lebron fan now- who didn't see that coming. 

And futurist is a guy again. 


This offseason is all sorts of crazy!


----------



## Cap

Bahaha.


----------



## ATLien

"The Decision" = 7.3 household rating. 

Meanwhile, USA-Ghana soccer = 19+ million viewers. and the NFL Draft = 23+ million viewers.

Just for those keeping track, "The Decision" was not the most watched Summer sports program. & shows how much less popular it is than the NFL.


----------



## Tragedy

croco said:


> Agreed.
> 
> It's not so much that I can't understand the frustration of Cleveland fans, but seven years is a looong time. There have been so many threads on this forum about the lack of a true second star on the Cavs. NBA Free Agency allows you to leave without compensation for the former team and that is what Lebron did.


I have been saying he had to leave Cleveland. They would never do anything to get him a title. But like others have said, the manner of doing it was just wrong. Also, joining such a stacked duo. Crazy. I hate it but i like it. I hate it from an NBA competition standpoint - i wouldn't even want the Knicks to come up like that, it's not fun to root for, but i love it in the sense that they showed they want to put winning ahead of money. 

So props to them for taking less to play together. But i don't see anyone following suit anytime soon.


----------



## HKF

I'm just happy that Kobe haters have been united and I finally have an actual team to hate again (I mean I didn't like the Celtics, but respected them). I really want this team to lose and I'm looking at you Dwight Howard to be the beast that slays this 3-Headed Dragon.


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

HKF said:


> I just that Kobe haters have been united and I finally have an actual team to hate again (I mean I didn't like the Celtics, but respected them). I really want this team to lose and I'm looking at you *Dwight Howard *to be the beast that slays this 3-Headed Dragon.


The 2 best slashers in the world will have his (offensively inept) ass in foul trouble 2 minutes into every game!


----------



## E.H. Munro

HKF said:


> I'm just happy that Kobe haters have been united and I finally have an actual team to hate again (I mean I didn't like the Celtics, but respected them). I really want this team to lose and I'm looking at you Dwight Howard to be the beast that slays this 3-Headed Dragon.


You may as well be rooting for Boston's owners to sack up and make a run at CP3, that's probably the only way that the Heat get knocked off in 2011.


----------



## Basel




----------



## ATLien

If Dwight is our best chance at a dragon slayer, then I am not too confident


----------



## Basel

By the way, 23AJ's flip flopping makes ChrisRichards look like a credible poster.


----------



## Nevus

For years, his haters have said "He may have great _stats_ but he'll never be the GOAT without some rings."

Now, it is "He may win some rings but he can never be the GOAT now that he is going to play with some other good players, for once."

He did enough for the Cavaliers. I don't think they did enough for him. He gave them 7 years of his career, and the organization never got the right support around him. So he walked.

Good for him.


----------



## Seuss

I've always wanted to watch LeBron on an entertaining basketball team. This is going to be fun to watch.


----------



## Dre

Lynx said:


> Nice (edited) thread title.
> 
> :lol:


I had to LOL..

Anyway..**** all that hating...hatin' is for suckers..stop being crabs.

How you gonna tell me you liked Lebron and Wade before but you don't like them together...**** outta here.

Anyways this is the event that completely turns Kobe into a hero, if they all actually make it to the finals he'll have so many people on his side he might be thrown off and underperform :laugh:


----------



## HKF

Where is ChiBron? I mean can he play the Kobe had too much help card now? What does he think about this Lebronmination?


----------



## MarioChalmers

...


----------



## HKF

Where is the racism you are speaking about? There are all types of people defending him and all types of people blasting him.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Jesus, people, lighten up. Gian was making a joke.


----------



## Ron

E.H. Munro said:


> Jesus, people, lighten up. Gian was making a joke.


I didn't see it that way, but if you know him/her more than me, I can retract.


----------



## Ron

As we all know, that is a touchy subject...as witnessed by my own hiccup last month.


----------



## Dre

LOL he was joking.


----------



## HEATLUNATIC




----------



## MarioChalmers

Ron said:


> I didn't see it that way, but if you know him/her more than me, I can retract.


For what it's worth, I wouldn't have tried to respond with an argument to any reply, so, no, trolling wasn't my intention. 

Then again, you're right. The playfulness/sarcasm of the post may have been lost in cyberspace like a sock in a dryer, so fair play/I understand.


----------



## Ron

I think we can all agree if anyone is hating on LeBron, its because of his actions, not because who he is.

Personally, I think its great, from a basketball standpoint. If the Heat and Lakers to meet in the Finals, there were me numerous intriguing one-on-one matchups.

I'm not so sure the Heat can gel enough to make it to the Finals there first year with this ThreeHeat (copyright, Damian).

We shall see. Gonna be a great regular season.

Heat vs. Lakers, Christmas day. Venue ? Not sure yet.


----------



## Game3525

Super Friends said:


>


You guys would have been doing the same thing if Wade had packed up and went to go play with Lebron....


----------



## MarioChalmers

Super Friends said:


>


It would be really (un)cool if the Heat could make their jerseys look like that.


----------



## Ron

gian said:


> For what it's worth, I wouldn't have tried to respond with an argument to any reply, so, no, trolling wasn't my intention.
> 
> Then again, you're right. The playfulness/sarcasm of the post may have been lost in cyberspace like a sock in a dryer, so fair play/I understand.


Okay thanks, no harm no foul. I will retract. Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## ATLien




----------



## HB

I wonder how many national TV games Cleveland gets next year...on the other hand the Heat will be on so much it will be infuriating.


----------



## Hyperion

croco said:


> Agreed.
> 
> It's not so much that I can't understand the frustration of Cleveland fans, but seven years is a looong time. There have been so many threads on this forum about the lack of a true second star on the Cavs. NBA Free Agency allows you to leave without compensation for the former team and that is what Lebron did.


Exactly. I find it hilarious how "upset" Dan Gilbert is that Lebron left. I mean seriously! He made MILLIONS from Lebron, probably in the hundreds of millions, yet he is going to insult Lebron for leaving? 

Him bitching that they "protected" Lebron's image all these years like it was some sort of family favor to him. The reason Lebron got special treatment was because he is special. He's the best player in the damn NBA and he had the good fortune to luck into getting him only to not add a single piece to that championship puzzle. If anyone is upset at James, they're stupid, the Cavs lost James because they couldn't manage to build a quality team, we'll see them at that sub 30 win mark next year.


----------



## HB

Because he didnt have to drag this out...didnt have to go on Larry King and all those shows saying Cleveland has the edge. Didnt have to toy with their emotions. Cleveland is pretty much a ****ty city, the depression was there way before it hit the rest of the U.S., this pretty much cripples the city. Gilbert somewhat overreacted but I don't see anything wrong with it. Guy goes to GReenwich CT to hold a press conference and then says he doesnt want anyone in Cleveland to overreact. They catered to him, no one on here can say the Cavs didn't try to build a team around him. Oh well, one thing's for sure, this guy isn't in Magic or MJ's class.

Those MVPs are out the door. Heck I am almost certain Wade will steal the spot light from him, guy's just that good.


----------



## rocketeer

HB said:


> Because he didnt have to drag this out...didnt have to go on Larry King and all those shows saying Cleveland has the edge. Didnt have to toy with their emotions. Cleveland is pretty much a ****ty city, the depression was there way before it hit the rest of the U.S., this pretty much cripples the city. Gilbert somewhat overreacted but I don't see anything wrong with it. Guy goes to GReenwich CT to hold a press conference and then says he doesnt want anyone in Cleveland to overreact. They catered to him, no one on here can say the Cavs didn't try to build a team around him. Oh well, one thing's for sure, this guy isn't in Magic or MJ's class.


what if cleveland actually was in the lead and lebron would have stayed if they were able to convince bosh to come or make some other big move to bring in help?



> Those MVPs are out the door. Heck I am almost certain Wade will steal the spot light from him, guy's just that good.


lebron is better than wade. it doesn't matter if wade is that good. lebron is better. so it's more likely that lebron has the spotlight. i wouldn't be surprised at all if wade ends up stealing a finals mvp or two away from lebron by having a huge finals, which could cloud how history remembers things, but it's going to be clear as it's happening that this is lebron's team.


----------



## HB

What he showed with this move is that he cant handle the spot light...he needs other legit guys to win. He's not the savior....dude's a punk.


----------



## rocketeer

HB said:


> What he showed with this move is that he cant handle the spot light...he needs other legit guys to win. He's not the savior....dude's a punk.


what part of being in the spotlight more than any other player in sports showed that he can't handle the spotlight? that's just a dumb statement.

also, could you point to any player in any team sport that didn't need other legit guys to win?


----------



## E.H. Munro

That Magic Johnson, total punk. Couldn't win a title on his own. Loser.


----------



## HKF

The best player in the league, left to be a sidekick to Wade. That **** is just hilarious to me.


----------



## E.H. Munro

HKF said:


> The best player in the league, left to be a sidekick to Wade. That **** is just hilarious to me.


Spare me the sidekick nonsense. You're better than that. What the **** has Wade ever closed out since Shaq's untimely demise? The Heat have been a just over .500 team and playoff cannon fodder for four years now. And Shawn Marion was the second best player on either squad.


----------



## HKF

Munro, Shaq hasn't been a good player since 2005 (the year before they won the title). I've never seen the best player in the league leave to join another franchise, people are supposed to come to him. Look, I'm old school, I'm a firm believer in getting your tail kicked for years, before besting all your competitors (heck that's how I live my life now in Hollywood - which trust me is harder). 

To me, I just can't look at Lebron the way I can look at a 35 year old Jabbar when Magic joins the team. It's just different. When great talent opts out of being a leader, I can't help but be disappointed. At least now we know that Lebron isn't a leader because he doesn't want to be.

I also like that AJ23 is now rooting for him because Lebron is no longer a threat to Jordan's legacy. It's hilarious. I guess I will have to wait another generation for a talent to come along competitive enough want that challenge. It's probably going need to be someone not raised by a single-mother. A woman can't teach a man to be a man.


----------



## rocketeer

HKF said:


> Munro, Shaq hasn't been a good player since 2005 (the year before they won the title). I've never seen the best player in the league leave to join another franchise, people are supposed to come to him. Look, I'm old school, I'm a firm believer in getting your tail kicked for years, before besting all your competitors (heck that's how I live my life now in Hollywood - which trust me is harder).


it's definitely a weird situation. the best player in the league isn't supposed to leave his team. but he's not going to be anyone's sidekick. lebron is going to the 2nd best player in the league's team and taking it from him. he's making wade the sidekick on what was wade's team.


----------



## futuristxen

HKF said:


> The best player in the league, left to be a sidekick to Wade. That **** is just hilarious to me.


Is KG, Paul Pierce's sidekick?


----------



## futuristxen

HKF said:


> I also like that AJ23 is now rooting for him because Lebron is no longer a threat to Jordan's legacy. It's hilarious. I guess I will have to wait another generation for a talent to come along competitive enough want that challenge. It's probably going need to be someone not raised by a single-mother. A woman can't teach a man to be a man.


Actually AJ23 just hates Cleveland, and has said many times the only reason he "hated" Lebron was because he played for Cleveland. And has said for years the minute Lebron leaves he'll be a fan.

I got AJ23's back.


----------



## Dre

Even if that's true it's not going to appear like that because LeBron is most likely going to be setting the table, which looks like he's deferring to Wade.


----------



## Dre

futuristxen said:


> Is KG, Paul Pierce's sidekick?


KG was a tier above Pierce and it wasn't even close.


----------



## Game3525

rocketeer said:


> it's definitely a weird situation. the best player in the league isn't supposed to leave his team. but he's not going to be anyone's sidekick. *lebron is going to the 2nd best player in the league's team and taking it from him.* he's making wade the sidekick on what was wade's team.


Lebron is the better player, but it is Wade's team. This is alot like how KG was the best player on the Celtics, but it was Pierce's team or how A-Rod is a better talent/player then Derek Jeter. But Jeter is the man in New York. Even if they win, I don't see Lebron being appreciate as much as Wade would be.


----------



## futuristxen

Dre™ said:


> KG was a tier above Pierce and it wasn't even close.


Okay. Was Ray Allen Paul Pierce's sidekick?

What I'm saying is that you saw on the celtics, if they do it right, no one is anybody's sidekick because there is three of them. Each one is going to do what they do best. 

I think playing together is going to make both players better than they were. You can't guard either with 3 guys now. You can't even really double team them. And they should be able to play better defense and fast break more than they used to.

Lebron, Wade, and Bosh could all come out of this looking like even better players than they did individually.


----------



## futuristxen

Game3525 said:


> Lebron is the better player, but it is Wade's team. This is alot like how KG was the best player on the Celtics, but it was Pierce's team or how A-Rod is a better talent/player then Derek Jeter. But Jeter is the man in New York. Even if they win, I don't see Lebron being appreciate as much as Wade would be.


Is it really Wade's team anymore? There's no one left on the roster except for Chalmers. All of the guys they bring in are going to set the pecking order. I imagine it's going to be regarded as Lebron, Wade, and Bosh's team, since they are all three good friends.

This isn't going to be a Shaq/Kobe situation. I think having the third guy there takes away a lot of the tension and competition between the guys.


----------



## Dre

Yeah I mean all this sidekick stuff is nonsense, I guess we're fundamentally in agreement.

HKF I think your thing, like you admitted, is that you're "old school"...these guys nowadays are different. 

It's like Hip Hop. Back then to show a guy you respected him you baited him into a battle to spar...nowadays you show up everywhere with them and collaborate all the time. 

Times are changing, standards are lowering, respect has a different definition, and this is a watershed example of such.


----------



## HB

Its unquestionably Wade's team...but I wont be surprised if trade rumors spring up in two or three years time.


----------



## jmk

No, this is definitely Wade's team. Just like if Wade came to Cleveland it would have been LeBron's team.


----------



## Dre

And even if it is "Wade's team", and he's the spiritual leader and all that other mumbo jumbo, did last year suddenly not happen? Did LeBron not clearly show he's the best player in the league? Are we pretending he's going to suddenly decline in ability?

All that other nonsense that us fans make up is a moot point if we all agree that LeBron will have the most impact on how the Heat win and lose games from now until the end of his tenure, and that's about that.

Even when it was Kareem's team, it's pretty clear who the best player was.


----------



## HB

E.H. Munro said:


> That Magic Johnson, total punk. Couldn't win a title on his own. Loser.


What team did Magic leave to play for?


----------



## urwhatueati8god

HKF said:


> Munro, Shaq hasn't been a good player since 2005 (the year before they won the title). *I've never seen the best player in the league leave to join another franchise, people are supposed to come to him.* Look, I'm old school, I'm a firm believer in getting your tail kicked for years, before besting all your competitors (heck that's how I live my life now in Hollywood - which trust me is harder).
> 
> To me, I just can't look at Lebron the way I can look at a 35 year old Jabbar when Magic joins the team. It's just different. When great talent opts out of being a leader, I can't help but be disappointed. At least now we know that Lebron isn't a leader because he doesn't want to be.
> 
> I also like that AJ23 is now rooting for him because Lebron is no longer a threat to Jordan's legacy. It's hilarious. I guess I will have to wait another generation for a talent to come along competitive enough want that challenge. It's probably going need to be someone not raised by a single-mother. A woman can't teach a man to be a man.


This is just an idiotic assertion. How the hell was anybody supposed to "come to him?" Their management was inept and swapped old, washed up talent for older, washed up talent with worse contracts. Had the team re-signed him, they would have been over the salary cap in a city that has absolutely zero allure to it whatsoever. Even now they will be unable to sign anybody of any significance and it looks like their starting lineup is going to be Anderson Varejao, J.J. Hickson, Antawn Jamison, Delonte West, and Mo Williams. The Sacramento Kings had a higher weighted P.E.R. from their starters last season than those guys did and wound up as the third worst team in the league.


----------



## HB

^They made those moves FOR Lebron...they were actively trying to pry Amare from the Suns. Its not like they didnt try to placate this guy.


----------



## rocketeer

HB said:


> Its unquestionably Wade's team...but I wont be surprised if trade rumors spring up in two or three years time.


it was unquestionably wade's team. now it's unquestionably lebron's.

you're really trying to say that will all that's gone down this offseason, you're going to try to pretend it's not lebron's team? yeah, espn did a crazy one hour special so everyone could find out where someone's sidekick was going to wind up. there is no question, the heat are now lebron's.


----------



## HB

Lol so the Miami Heat is now Lebron's team...good one


----------



## E.H. Munro

HKF said:


> Munro, Shaq hasn't been a good player since 2005 (the year before they won the title). I've never seen the best player in the league leave to join another franchise, people are supposed to come to him. Look, I'm old school, I'm a firm believer in getting your tail kicked for years, before besting all your competitors (heck that's how I live my life now in Hollywood - which trust me is harder).


Shaqopotamus posted a 20/9 line during the regular season and 18/10 in the playoffs the year they won. Which means you're avoiding the question, what did Wade ever close out after Shaq's demise? The Heat are 4-12 in the playoffs since then and a .545 regular season team. And that's doing Wade the favor of throwing out the year the team imploded. When did James lead a team to a 15-67 record? When did Wade ever drag a team starting Larry Hughes & Eric Snow to the NBA finals?


----------



## BenDengGo

the reason why he left....!

http://www.vladtv.com/video/19663/h...delonte-west-is-sleeping-with-lebrons-mother/


----------



## Game3525

rocketeer said:


> it was unquestionably wade's team. now it's unquestionably lebron's.
> 
> you're really trying to say that will all that's gone down this offseason, *you're going to try to pretend it's not lebron's team? yeah*, espn did a crazy one hour special so everyone could find out where someone's sidekick was going to wind up. there is no question, the heat are now lebron's.


It *isn't* Lebron's team at all, it is Wade. If you took a poll of Miami fans, who the hell do you think they would say whose team it is?


----------



## HB

Bron went to play with WADE not vice versa...why are we even arguing about whose team it is. Wade isn't the one changing addresses. Besides Wade doesn't think he's a sidekick, thats for clowns like Bosh and Bron.


----------



## E.H. Munro

HB said:


> ^They made those moves FOR Lebron...they were actively trying to pry Amare from the Suns. Its not like they didnt try to placate this guy.


Who cares? They tried to get better, but they were inept and making bad moves. That's James' fault? He's supposed to stick it out with a bad team because they tried? Seriously? You're supposed to reward ineptitude with termination. I don't keep paying incompetent employees because they "try hard". NBA teams don't hand out huge contracts to enormously ****ty players because "they try". Otherwise Brandon Wallace would be making a huge NBA payday. You reward performance, not incompetence. Letting Cleveland's management off the hook would have guaranteed that they continued to suck.


----------



## HB

E.H. Munro said:


> Who cares? They tried to get better, but they were inept and making bad moves. That's James' fault? He's supposed to stick it out with a bad team because they tried? Seriously? You're supposed to reward ineptitude with termination. I don't keep paying incompetent employees because they "try hard". NBA teams don't hand out huge contracts to enormously ****ty players because "they try". Otherwise Brandon Wallace would be making a huge NBA payday. You reward performance, not incompetence. Letting Cleveland's management off the hook would have guaranteed that they continued to suck.


If Kobe had left the Lakers when they went 1-17 or so, think he'd be rewarded the way he is now...if Pierce had left the lottery Celtics a few years ago, think he'd have won that championship?

The team showed it was willing to make moves, fire the GM, get a new GM, that ship could have been righted. Unfortunately the prince didnt want to do the work anymore.


----------



## Dre

Dre™ said:


> And even if it is "Wade's team", and he's the spiritual leader and all that other mumbo jumbo, did last year suddenly not happen? Did LeBron not clearly show he's the best player in the league? Are we pretending he's going to suddenly decline in ability?
> 
> All that other nonsense that us fans make up is a moot point if we all agree that LeBron will have the most impact on how the Heat win and lose games from now until the end of his tenure, and that's about that.
> 
> Even when it was Kareem's team, it's pretty clear who the best player was.


....


----------



## Game3525

E.H. Munro said:


> Who cares? They tried to get better, but they were inept and making bad moves. That's James' fault? He's supposed to stick it out with a bad team because they tried? Seriously? You're supposed to reward ineptitude with termination. I don't keep paying incompetent employees because they "try hard". NBA teams don't hand out huge contracts to enormously ****ty players because "they try". Otherwise Brandon Wallace would be making a huge NBA payday. You reward performance, not incompetence. Letting Cleveland's management off the hook would have guaranteed that they continued to suck.


Yeah, you can't blame Lebron for mangement being inept.


----------



## HB

Just one to say best player and most talented player are two different things.


----------



## futuristxen

HB said:


> If Kobe had left the Lakers when they went 1-17 or so, think he'd be rewarded the way he is now...if Pierce had left the lottery Celtics a few years ago, think he'd have won that championship?
> 
> The team showed it was willing to make moves, fire the GM, get a new GM, that ship could have been righted. Unfortunately the prince didnt want to do the work anymore.


Kobe already had rings then. And Pierce was threatening to leave before they brought in KG.


----------



## E.H. Munro

HB said:


> If Kobe had left the Lakers when they went 1-17 or so, think he'd be rewarded the way he is now...if Pierce had left the lottery Celtics a few years ago, think he'd have won that championship?
> 
> The team showed it was willing to make moves, fire the GM, get a new GM, that ship could have been righted. Unfortunately the prince didnt want to do the work anymore.


If Kobe had helped carry the Bulls to a couple of titles? No one would give a **** that he got traded. Any more than anyone cares that Oscar Robertson left the Royals to win a title or that Bill Walton hooked on with the 86 Celtics to win a title. If the Celtics had decided to go into full rebuilding mode, and dealt Pierce to the Lakers, and he and Kobe led that squad to a threepeat, no one would give a ****. Pierce would probably have got more recognition as a result. 



futuristxen said:


> And Pierce was threatening to leave before they brought in KG.


Actually, quite the opposite. Boston attempted to deal him to Portland a few years ago in exchange for Deron Williams, and he refused to sign an extension with the Blazers because he wanted to win in Boston (and got widely ridiculed here for proving that he was "a loser" for refusing to leave). When Boston ended up with the #5 pick in 2007, and began seriously working out Yi & Jeff Green he said, in an interview, that if Boston was serious about going with the kids they should probably deal him. Then Boston traded for Ray Allen. I have no doubts that he threatened the owners privately, but all he wanted was to win a title in Boston. And Boston's management wasn't incompetent, they just had cheap owners, who needed to be goosed into opening their wallets.


----------



## urwhatueati8god

HB said:


> If Kobe had left the Lakers when they went 1-17 or so, think he'd be rewarded the way he is now...if Pierce had left the lottery Celtics a few years ago, think he'd have won that championship?
> 
> The team showed it was willing to make moves, fire the GM, get a new GM, that ship could have been righted. Unfortunately the prince didnt want to do the work anymore.


Clearly you're forgetting the fact that he tried to bitch his way off of the Lakers when they were sucking. There would have never been any talk about him being traded if he didn't ask for it as he at the time was the only player in the N.B.A. with a no trade clause. The only teams he was willing to be traded to weren't willing to forfeit what the Lakers were asking for in return, thus why he is still a Laker to this day. He also pulled the same crap during his free agency run around and nearly signed with the Clippers, but bailed only because the Lakers were able to offer him more money and the sixth year under the terms and conditions of the collective bargaining agreement. Then there is the fact that he bitched his way on to the Lakers in the first place, refusing to play in the doldrums of Charlotte and demanding to be moved to Los Angeles.

As for Pierce, when he first re-signed with them, they had just gone 49-33 and were eliminated in the Eastern Conference Finals and were viewed as a legitimate team. When he was a free agent the second time around, the only teams that were able to tender him an offer anywhere near his value and that made the playoffs were the Kings and the Clippers. The Kings were old and washed up and the Clippers are the Clippers. He never even really had a chance to test the free agent market.


----------



## rocketeer

HB said:


> Just one to say best player and most talented player are two different things.


are you saying lebron isn't the best player in the league?


----------



## Ben

Wade's team, but the best player is LeBron. Simple.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

urwhatueati8god said:


> Clearly you're forgetting the fact that he tried to bitch his way off of the Lakers when they were sucking. There would have never been any talk about him being traded if he didn't ask for it as he at the time was the only player in the N.B.A. with a no trade clause. The only teams he was willing to be traded to weren't willing to forfeit what the Lakers were asking for in return, thus why he is still a Laker to this day. He also pulled the same crap during his free agency run around and nearly signed with the Clippers, but bailed only because the Lakers were able to offer him more money and the sixth year under the terms and conditions of the collective bargaining agreement. Then there is the fact that he bitched his way on to the Lakers in the first place, refusing to play in the doldrums of Charlotte and demanding to be moved to Los Angeles.
> 
> As for Pierce, when he first re-signed with them, they had just gone 49-33 and were eliminated in the Eastern Conference Finals and were viewed as a legitimate team. When he was a free agent the second time around, the only teams that were able to tender him an offer anywhere near his value and that made the playoffs were the Kings and the Clippers. The Kings were old and washed up and the Clippers are the Clippers. He never even really had a chance to test the free agent market.


TOUCHE'. People tend to have selective memory at times.


----------



## HB

You know threatening management to bolt could also be a ploy to get them o actually get better talent


----------



## ChiBron

LeBron's such a humongous star that I just can't imagine any team not being his. He's been the league's most productive player statistically in 4 of the last 5 seasons. Historically, he's been the most productive player when surrounded by other superstars too. He's got the best All Star game averages. Look up all his Team USA stints - '06, '07 and '08. He was the most productive player statistically on all 3 of those teams. Was considered the best player on ALL those teams too(toss up between him and Wade for '08). LeBron's too good and too big from a celebrity standpoint to be playing 2nd fiddle to anyone. Does anyone NOT see him putting the best numbers in Miami? You add in the media's fixation with him, who do you think they will consider THE MAN in Miami?


----------



## futuristxen

I really don't think any of them will be considered the man. It's a unique situation I think.

I wonder when Wilt, West, and Baylor were together, whose team that was.


----------



## Game3525

ChiBron said:


> *LeBron's such a humongous star that I just can't imagine any team not being his.* He's been the league's most productive player statistically in 4 of the last 5 seasons. Historically, he's been the most productive player when surrounded by other superstars too. He's got the best All Star game averages. Look up all his Team USA stints - '06, '07 and '08. He was the most productive player statistically on all 3 of those teams. Was considered the best player on ALL those teams too(toss up between him and Wade for '08). LeBron's too good and too big from a celebrity standpoint to be playing 2nd fiddle to anyone. Does anyone NOT see him putting the best numbers in Miami? You add in the media's fixation with him, who do you think they will consider THE MAN in Miami?


Wade is a big star too and it is his town, Bron is the better player, but it is Wade's team. Lebron is basically A-Rod, to Wade's Jeter down there.


----------



## Hyperion

HB said:


> Bron went to play with WADE not vice versa...why are we even arguing about whose team it is. Wade isn't the one changing addresses. Besides Wade doesn't think he's a sidekick, thats for clowns like Bosh and Bron.


Why does this have to be a Batman and Robin relationship? Why can't it be like the League of Justice? Batman, Superman and Aquaman....


EDIT: I guess Flash would be a better reference to Wade, but I like him more as Batman because Batman is cooler than Flash.


----------



## mysterio

I wonder what LeBron's stat-line is going to be in Miami.


----------



## BlakeJesus

Chris Bosh is clearly Aquaman in that scenario.


----------



## futuristxen

Chris Bosh is definitely the wonder twin that can turn into a bucket of water.


----------



## Ron

futuristxen said:


> I wonder when Wilt, West, and Baylor were together, whose team that was.


I hate to say it, but I am old enough to remember those times.

And there were many conflicts, believe me. Elgin was more off to the side...it was not a very happy trio, but they did play together...they never did win together, until Elgin retired early in the 1971-72 season, giving Jim McMillan a starting role and boy did he ever deliver...that team went 69-13, 33 games in a row, culminating in the first title for the "L.A." Lakers.

But I digress.

It was mostly Jerry West's team, unless Wilt took over for a night (or more). As I said, it was something of an uneasy relationship...Wilt didn't back down from anyone.


----------



## futuristxen

Interesting.

Oh this just in, Windhorst is tweeting that the Cavs are working on a sign and trade with the Heat. I can't figure out why either team would be doing it, but there you go.


----------



## Dissonance

So, all 3 will have 6yr-120M plus deals?


----------



## Ron

futuristxen said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Oh this just in, Windhorst is tweeting that the Cavs are working on a sign and trade with the Heat. I can't figure out why either team would be doing it, but there you go.


A sign-and-trade for LeBron James?

For both teams, it makes a lot of sense. It is a way for the Heat to structure LeBron's contract so as to make it easier for them to sign Wade and Bosh.

For the Cavs, they are not left raped, but get something in return for LeBron.

Very interesting, especially in the light of "the letter."


----------



## futuristxen

Makes you wonder about the legitimacy of Gilbert's letter. I kind of wondered at the time if he didn't just write that letter to appeal to Cavs season ticket holders and feed off their emotions.


----------



## Dissonance

http://www.foxsportsflorida.com/pages/heat_livestream_full

Anyone who wants to watch. It's crazy and hasn't even truly started yet.


----------



## Jesukki

There's more people in there than there were in regular season games.
Beat LA chants. haha
Bring it on jabronis


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

Bron wants 7 rings!!!:bsmile:


----------



## Basel

Super Friends said:


> Bron wants 7 rings!!!:bsmile:


You can't always have what you want.


----------



## Basel

On some other forums, people are bringing this up from ESPN a few years ago:



> But I do want to be the best player on the court every time I step out there. It's all about competing, about trying to be the best. It's also important to me to make the team I'm on now the best. I don't want to go ringchasing, as I call it; you know, going to a team that's already pretty established and trying to win a ring with them. I want to stay with the Cavs and build a champion. And I feel like we're on our way.


And they're having a field day with it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3686667


----------



## thaKEAF

Things chaaaaange they don't stay the saaameeee


----------



## HB

*Lebron = Benedict Arnold?*



> Fathead has lowered the prices of its LeBron James wall stickers to $17.41. Benedict Arnold, who turned on America during the Revolutionary War, was born in 1741.
> Fathead has lowered the prices of its LeBron James wall stickers to $17.41. Benedict Arnold, who turned on America during the Revolutionary War, was born in 1741.
> Related News
> 
> * Articles
> * LeBron spurns Knicks to join Miami Heat
> * Knicks can't score King James, but may get 'Lil' LeBron'
> * LeBron only hurts himself by spurning New York
> * Isola: LeWimp James just can't carry team
> *
> 
> It didn't take long for Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert to try and make a little money off LeBron James' departure from Cleveland for the Miami Heat, even if it's only $17.41.
> 
> Fathead, a company owned by Gilbert that makes life-size vinyl wall graphics of professional athletes and cartoon characters, has put all their remaining Fatheads picturing King James in a Cleveland Cavaliers uniform on sale. That's not surprising. What is surprising is that the company has priced the giant stickers at $17.41. Fatheads normally retail between $50 and $100.
> 
> Gilbert and his partners purchased Fathead in 2006.
> 
> What's the significance of $17.41? One of the most notorious traitors in American history, Benedict Arnold, was born in 1741. Arnold was a general in the Continental Army during the American Revolution, but joined the British Army in 1780.


----------



## BlakeJesus

I should order a fathead, that's a great price.


----------



## Theonee

As far as taking a pay cut, lets not kid ourselves. Most of the NBA fans might be foolish, thinking, Oh look at them, they even took pay cut to play together.
What people don't realise is, when you factor in Miami's state income tax, He will still be making more money, so stop trying to fool people once again.


----------



## Tooeasy

im imagining youtube vids of people making effigy's with those fatheads and shooting the **** out of them with every conceivable firearm, lighting em on fire, etc.


----------



## Chris Moore

I used to be against this but know I don't give a ****. The only time I will care is when they play Boston and in the playoffs.


----------



## E.H. Munro

HB said:


> What team did Magic leave to play for?


When did Magic ever win a title without one of the five greatest players in the history of the game as his sidekick? (And my statement is on the absurdity of all the crying and whining, check the GOAT thread, I've got Magic at #1, he's my all time favourite player, but he played on loaded teams and it never hurt his legacy.)


----------



## 77AJ

futuristxen said:


> Actually AJ23 just hates Cleveland, and has said many times the only reason he "hated" Lebron was because he played for Cleveland. And has said for years the minute Lebron leaves he'll be a fan.
> 
> I got AJ23's back.


This.

People, obviously were not paying attention. The fact LBJ played for the Ohio Cavs always rubbed me the wrong way, I can't stand that organization past, present, and into the future.

Did I scold James from time to time? Yes. However it's time to move on. things change, James is now entering the second phase of his career. His prime and ending are going to be played in Miami. He's joined forces with Dwyane Wade, and Chris Bosh. D Wade has always been in my top 5 favorite players in the NBA since his rookie year. I'm happy for Wade and the Heat franchise. LeBron James, Chris Bosh, and D Wade about to unleash one of the greatest NBA dynasty since Bill Russells Celtics, and Michael Jordans Bulls.

And yes futuristxen and 23AJ running together now. Get in people before you miss the party!


----------



## Basel

:laugh:

You and futuristxen are both clowns.


----------



## 77AJ

Basel said:


> :laugh:
> 
> You and futuristxen are both clowns.


Insult's ? I mean come on you're better than that Basel. And the train that's getting built in Miami isn't going to be stopped by LA or ORL. This team is going to be chalk full of NBA elite, journeymen, and winners. One thing Pat Riely can do, is build great winning teams.


----------



## lakeshows

Basel said:


> On some other forums, people are bringing this up from ESPN a few years ago:
> 
> 
> 
> And they're having a field day with it.
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3686667


He tried to do it in Cleveland and it just couldn't happen. He's the best player in the NBA and two-time reigning MVP and carried that team to back to back 60+ win seasons yet they just couldn't get any further.

He's not going ring chasing in that essence because he's not going to a team that is already established like that article says. The Heat haven't won anything in the past 4 years. It would have been ring chasing had he gone to the Lakers aka a team that is established and just won back to back rings.

Man I just can't stand some of the jealousy I'm seeing from Kobe fans in this situation. They're trying to rag on James I guess because they know he's the better individual player compared to Kobe and now that he might be on the better team they feel threatened. Just a reminder to Kobe fans: He never won rings because he was the best player. He won rings because he was on the best team. Usually a stacked team too. So stacked indeed that he could go 6-24 in Game 7 of the NBA finals at home and still win.


----------



## Basel

23AJ said:


> Insult's ? I mean come on you're better than that Basel. And the train that's getting built in Miami isn't going to be stopped by LA or ORL. This team is going to be chalk full of NBA elite, journeymen, and winners. One thing Pat Riely can do, is build great winning teams.


We'll see about that.


----------



## Game3525

You know if Lebron and Kobe had switch roles the last two years with Lebron leading the Cavs too two championships and Kobe failing to advance to the finals with 60+ win team, some of you guys would be singing a differant tune.


----------



## 77AJ

Game3525 said:


> You know if Lebron and Kobe had switch roles the last two years with Lebron leading the Cavs too two championships and Kobe failing to advance to the finals with 60+ win team, some of you guys would be singing a differant tune.


Thank god, Kobe didn't have to play with a washed up Shaq, overrated Mo Williams, and Antwan Jamison as his best teammates.


----------



## 77AJ

Basel said:


> We'll see about that.


Indeed, we will.


----------



## Game3525

23AJ, how can anyone take you seriously?


----------



## Jamel Irief

23AJ said:


> Thank god, Kobe didn't have to play with a washed up Shaq, overrated Mo Williams, and Antwan Jamison as his best teammates.


Really? Really? Why would anyone ever listen to you ever again?

LeBron changes cities means everything you preached for years wasn't true? You just basically claimed you have zero objectivity.


----------



## Cap

Jamel Irief said:


> Really? Really? Why would anyone ever listen to you ever again?
> 
> LeBron changes cities means everything you preached for years wasn't true? You just basically claimed you have zero *creativity*.


Fixed. Dude is a self-hating parody, pretty obvious at this point.


----------



## 77AJ

Game3525 said:


> 23AJ, how can anyone take you seriously?


I'm here to simply express my opinions about basketball. You guys throw insults around like it's going out of style. The teams and players I choose to cheer for and support is 100 percent my decision. 

Do you see me questioning your allegiances to the teams and players you cheer for ? Not at all. Why bother ? It's what fuels you, so more power to you. I'm not going to throw insults your way because you view the game differently than I do. I prefer variety of opinions, a diversity of views and expressions regarding the game. 

I've moved on from the LeBron James Cavs era. I'm also a Heat/D Wade fan, and have been for years. Long before this basketball forum existed. Trust me, my complaints logged against LBJ were warranted for their time, and had merit. However that's all water under the bridge now. And I will appreciate James game much more playing alongside Bosh and Wade. That's pretty much the end of the story. 

cheers. 
23AJ


----------



## 77AJ

Cap said:


> Fixed. Dude is a self-hating parody, pretty obvious at this point.


Even if this was true ? Who cares, and what makes you so special to put people down and insult them on the internet ? There are plenty of distasteful and insulting terms that could be lambasted against you as well. However, I'm not going to stoop to that level. It's a basketball message board to share and express are opinions about the NBA and game in general. So that's what I'll do.

Later
23AJ


----------



## HKF

Dude, the only reason you're happy that Lebron is playing with Wade and company is that he's no longer a threat to Michael Jordan legacy. Since Lebron doesn't want to be a leader and challenge greatness, you have nothing to worry about.


----------



## 77AJ

Jamel Irief said:


> Really? Really? Why would anyone ever listen to you ever again?
> 
> LeBron changes cities means everything you preached for years wasn't true? You just basically claimed you have zero objectivity.


Listen, go back a year or so ago in the Lakers forum and find my threads. I have a detailed thread regarding my opinion on the NBA, and how I view NBA organizations as brands. It will give you a better understanding of how I think about the game, and why I choose to support the teams that I do. After you read it, get back to me if you want to in why I now can support the South Beach Trio. 

23AJ


----------



## Adam

Let's get back on topic guys. Spread your personal attacks out over time. When you concentrate them like this then I have to moderate.


----------



## 77AJ

HKF said:


> Dude, the only reason you're happy that Lebron is playing with Wade and company is that he's no longer a threat to Michael Jordan legacy. Since Lebron doesn't want to be a leader and challenge greatness, you have nothing to worry about.


You're entitled to your opinion. And one that's a foregone conclusion to you, so your minds made up. No point of going back and forth addressing this any further. However just for the record, Michael Jordans legacy has nothing to do with why I'm supporting the Miami Heat. If that' was the case Kobe Bryant wouldn't be one of my favorite players, as he has a great opportunity getting a few more titles. Anyway, I'll leave it at that. 

23AJ


----------



## E.H. Munro

HKF said:


> Dude, the only reason you're happy that Lebron is playing with Wade and company is that he's no longer a threat to Michael Jordan legacy. Since Lebron doesn't want to be a leader and challenge greatness, you have nothing to worry about.


This might shock you, but to a lot of us old timers Magic > Michael. So, no, if LeBron James retires with a passel of rings as the 21st century Magic, his legacy won't be "tarnished" and he'll absolutely challenge Michael for the GOAT status.


----------



## futuristxen

Jamel Irief said:


> Really? Really? Why would anyone ever listen to you ever again?
> 
> LeBron changes cities means everything you preached for years wasn't true? You just basically claimed you have zero objectivity.


He's said for years and years that the moment Lebron left CLeveland he would be a fan. He never hated Lebron, he hated Cleveland.

Not hard to understand, and he's said it enough times. That's why people should have never let what he said get to them in the first place. Or at least taken it with a grain of salt.


----------



## Dre

:laugh: that co-sign doesn't help you


----------



## Ron

Adam said:


> Let's get back on topic guys. Spread your personal attacks out over time. When you concentrate them like this then I have to moderate.


Yup.

Time to change that thread title too...he's taken enough "heat." Pardon the pun.


----------



## rocketeer

Game3525 said:


> 23AJ, how can anyone take you seriously?


if anyone was taking him seriously, they were doing it wrong.


----------



## Hyperion

Theonee said:


> As far as taking a pay cut, lets not kid ourselves. Most of the NBA fans might be foolish, thinking, Oh look at them, they even took pay cut to play together.
> What people don't realise is, when you factor in Miami's state income tax, He will still be making more money, so stop trying to fool people once again.


Do you even know how much state income tax generally is? A $20 million contract would be worth $1.2 million a year in state tax. If he takes less than $1 million below the max, he's sacrificing money.


----------



## Hyperion

Oh yeah, did anyone else laugh when he announced that he was going to the Heat? They absolutely turned the tables on Free Agency. Everyone was expecting Three powerhouse teams to be made in the East but instead they got ONE. And all this crap about it being Wade's team, last I checked the only person under contract is Mario Chalmers. So technically it's Mario's team and they can be his Luigi, Toadstool and Princess. 

There is no team in Miami right now. They got rid of EVERYONE and have three guys. Yes Wade has been in Miami the longest, but they three are making the team. Without a doubt they will all be captains of the team and they will win 70+ games. I think that they want to go 82-0 for a season.


----------



## Wade County

Not sure on winning 70+ games. Think we should get 62-65 though.


----------



## Jamel Irief

23AJ said:


> Listen, go back a year or so ago in the Lakers forum and find my threads. I have a detailed thread regarding my opinion on the NBA, and how I view NBA organizations as brands. It will give you a better understanding of how I think about the game, and why I choose to support the teams that I do. After you read it, get back to me if you want to in why I now can support the South Beach Trio.
> 
> 23AJ


Yes, and you just admitted that all the opinions you expressed about LeBron were moot until now because you hated the cavs... either that or every you say about LeBron is now moot because you like the heat.

In May you were saying people were making excuses for LeBron not winning, now you are saying the complete opposite and are making the excuses yourself. Therefore you are admitting you have no objectivity.


----------



## Jamel Irief

futuristxen said:


> He's said for years and years that the moment Lebron left CLeveland he would be a fan. He never hated Lebron, he hated Cleveland.
> 
> Not hard to understand, and he's said it enough times. That's why people should have never let what he said get to them in the first place. Or at least taken it with a grain of salt.


Don't know about you, but I feel I can objectively evaluate players regardless on if I'm a fan or not. Actually after reading all your posts about Kobe, Iverson, Bogut through the years I know you can't.


----------



## Luke

Is anyone suprised by 23AJ? I'm not. And the Heat still need to fill out their roster before they go prancing around calling themselves the champs.


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

VanillaPrice said:


> Is anyone suprised by 23AJ? I'm not. And the Heat still need to fill out their roster before they go prancing around calling themselves the champs.


Wade
Bron
Bosh
Haslem
Miller
Chalmers
Pittman

Keep in mind that we're talking to Fisher, Barnes and Big Z...and im sure that Williams, Ridnour, Thomas, and Anthony are on the radar.


----------



## Hyperion

This song had better be playing at EVERY Heat game.


----------



## f22egl

^^^ You know LeBron will leave in 6 years to play alongside Kevin Durant.


----------



## Seanzie

*LeBron to the Heat: Best move for the NBA, or worst move for the NBA?*

The more I think about it, the more crystal clear it becomes that LeBron going to Miami - while being bad for the rest of the teams - is great for the league. I've never heard such a buzz for the NBA since the days of Michael Jordan.

LeBron may have become the most hated man in the league, but who cares? The guy is unbelievably talented, wins games, is a major draw, and is about to presumably win multiple championships. LeBron is good for basketball.

The problem is this sense of ownership that Cavaliers fans' have. LeBron does not owe that city nor that fan base _anything_. He's exactly right when he says that he lifted that organization to new heights. Ask yourself one thing: Are the Cavs not a more relevant, well-off team than before LeBron fell into their laps? Of course they are. Fans, you need to blame your ownership for not putting a winner around the guy. In the end, that's why he's leaving for greener pastures. No one spit on you, no one turned their backs on you; a man simply made a wise career decision.

As for the talk about his legacy, it's all conjecture at this point. What if the Heat win eight championships and LeBron wins another four MVPs? You're telling me that sort of legacy doesn't put him amongst the all-time greats? Even if he wins one championship, it's probably one more than he would have won in Cleveland, a team that was ultimately done in by a series of poor free agent and trade decisions.

In the end, the buzz surrounding the NBA hasn't been this loud in quite some time. As basketball fans, we should enjoy this. To me, it means that other teams are going to step up to try and match the Heat. I believe we could see an era of four or five super powers, while the rest of the league toils between being absolute losers and also-rans.


----------



## Dre

*Re: LeBron to the Heat: Best move for the NBA, or worst move for the NBA?*

I'm gonna have to merge this one with the main thread, I'm sorry but it's becoming overkill


----------



## futuristxen

Jamel Irief said:


> Don't know about you, but I feel I can objectively evaluate players regardless on if I'm a fan or not. Actually after reading all your posts about Kobe, Iverson, Bogut through the years I know you can't.


I have always evalualuated players using the subjective. I don't believe in objectivity. Anyone who says they are objective on anything is fooling themselves. It's cool though. Objectivity makes things feel safe, comfortable, you feel like you're right.

Subjectivity is more fun though. It's a drug that opens the door to diffrent levels of perspective and insight.

Hollinger ain't my homie.

Oh and I was right about Bogut being a better choice than Marvin Williams


----------



## Dre

Was it you that made that post about Kobe coming down the paint on Bogut and him swatting his shot and sending him packing, because he was a new breed or something?


----------



## Hyperion

From reports coming out in the blogosphere, James agreed to this 1 hour show in exchange for ESPN snuffing the Gloria-West affair story. Supposedly there is photographic evidence from the Post. He agreed to do the one hour show, but all advertising went to charity and they killed the story. 

If that's true, that sucks for him. He's a bad guy for trying to be a good guy.


----------



## Dre

ESPN never reported it even when it was a hot story, there wasn't enough substantial evidence to report it, plus those idiots wouldn't know what angle to play it at anyway.

LeBron didn't bring this special to ESPN until a week and a half ago.


----------



## Dre

At the end of the day the Cavaliers probably shot themselves in the foot using up the cap space they had as early as two years ago on a bunch of BS. 

LeBron would've stayed if the Cavs could have done something for him, but they blew the cap on mediocrity and lost him too.

People might say LeBron would've tried to pressure them into doing something, but if Riley can convince Wade to wait right after he had won a title, Cleveland could've done it to LeBron. I believe if the Cavs had money for a max they could've gotten Amare or Joe Johnson, and he would've stayed. 

They were on pace to have a bare cupboard too, but their trades took the flexibility. They gambled, they lost, it's on them.


----------



## Hyperion

Dre™ said:


> ESPN never reported it even when it was a hot story, there wasn't enough substantial evidence to report it, plus those idiots wouldn't know what angle to play it at anyway.
> 
> LeBron didn't bring this special to ESPN until a week and a half ago.


Supposedly that's why a couple of NY Post reporters camped out on his mom to get the scoop and they did. James' camp managed to get them not to publish whatever info they had (assume its West-Gloria related) and agreed to do the ESPN special.


----------



## Dre

So you're saying this special was planned like..two months ago?


----------



## 29380

:lol:


----------



## Dre

*l l*

It was kinda funny at first but naw....


----------



## 77AJ

Jamel Irief said:


> Yes, and you just admitted that all the opinions you expressed about LeBron were moot until now because you hated the cavs... either that or every you say about LeBron is now moot because you like the heat.
> 
> In May you were saying people were making excuses for LeBron not winning, now you are saying the complete opposite and are making the excuses yourself. Therefore you are admitting you have no objectivity.


The thing is, what were my qualms with LeBron James the individual ? and basketball player? As the individual, I thought it was down right pathetic how he was anointed the Chosen One before playing one game in the NBA. To me that kind of praise is shallow, and undeserving. I don't care who the player is. Bron embraced this though, hence the tat on his back. So the publicity and glory that rained down on LeBron James before he ever did a damn thing in the NBA made me dislike the individual.

As for the player, I simply called out his short comings more than most NBA fans. That being said, as LeBron James improved, I also gave him his props. LeBron James has made giant strides as a player and person since his inception to the NBA as an 18 year old high school star. I'm sure the personal growth has a lot to do with just getting older and wiser. The basketball part though he deserves all the credit in the world, the guy every single off season works on his game and comes back to the NBA better. 

Now those personal irritants have subsided some what, his basketball short comings will be virtually gone since he is playing with two other capable superstars, to say the least.

And most importantly LeBron James left the Ohio Cavs right where they belong, at the bottom. Good riddance. That's one Brand I will never be buying regardless of the players they acquire through trades , free agency, and the draft. As the last seven years documents and illustrates clearly.

23AJ


----------



## Basel




----------



## PauloCatarino

lakeshows said:


> He tried to do it in Cleveland and it just couldn't happen. He's the best player in the NBA and two-time reigning MVP and carried that team to back to back 60+ win seasons yet they just couldn't get any further.


The Clevelenad Cavaliers were the #1 team in the NBA for 2 straight seasons. They were "almost there", in the sense it appeared that only a minor tweaking (sp?) would be needed to get them the champiosnhip (i predicted the Cavs to be the 2010 NBA champions, for that matter).
But that was before Lebron quitting on the team in tha playoffs and after.



> He's not going ring chasing in that essence because he's not going to a team that is already established like that article says. The Heat haven't won anything in the past 4 years. It would have been ring chasing had he gone to the Lakers aka a team that is established and just won back to back rings.


No, he is not going ring chasing. 

He is doing worse: he is renegating his pledge to the Cavs in wich he would nopt rest till he got Cleveland a championship (saying this in March, 2010 - someone has the quote and link on his sig)

He is saying to the world "Winning is too tought and i can't make it alone" (in the sense of the best player in the world). And he is npot even saying "Get me some help or i'll bolt", like many other superstras have said in the past: he quietly made up his mind that winning would be more confartable/esy if playing with 2 other superstars. 

A loser's mentality. From a self-proclaimed "winner". 



> Man I just can't stand some of the jealousy I'm seeing from Kobe fans in this situation. They're trying to rag on James I guess because they know he's the better individual player compared to Kobe and now that he might be on the better team they feel threatened. Just a reminder to Kobe fans: He never won rings because he was the best player. He won rings because he was on the best team. Usually a stacked team too. So stacked indeed that he could go 6-24 in Game 7 of the NBA finals at home and still win.


I don't see jealousy, but harsh criticism. Heck, Lebron James, technally (sp?), wasn't a Cavs player. He was an unrestricted FA. He could do whatever he wanted and go wherever he wanted.
It's all the spectacle, all the disdain showed to the franchise, the "Lebron James is doing what makes Lebron James happy", the "I can't get into it (after seeing fans burning his jersey). It's a business thing" 

Laker fans would be like Cavs fans had Kobe Bryant skipped town like he threatened to do back in the day. But he didn't. He stayed to show he could win being The Man. Wich he did.
Lebron James left the NBA's best team because he couldn't/was afraid he couldn't win.


----------



## thaKEAF

Whatever white boy made that video is too sweet for words. nh.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

PauloCatarino said:


> He is saying to the world "Winning is too tought and i can't make it alone" (in the sense of the best player in the world). And he is npot even saying "Get me some help or i'll bolt", like many other superstras have said in the past: he quietly made up his mind that winning would be more confartable/esy if playing with 2 other superstars.
> 
> A loser's mentality. From a self-proclaimed "winner".


Kobe Bryant is a loser until he demands Pau to be traded. He should have been upset when Artest signed too. Clearly he has a loser's mentality since he wants to play with stars so he can win. 

What's funny is that even with LeBron signing in Miami, Kobe still arguably has better supporting cast. If LeBron took the easy way out, then Kobe has been riding on easy street for two years now.


----------



## futuristxen

Sir Patchwork said:


> What's funny is that even with LeBron signing in Miami, Kobe still arguably has better supporting cast.


A point few are really realizing. It depends on how Riley fills out the rest of the roster, but right now the Lakers arguably have 5 players who are top five at what they do.

Kobe
Gasol
Artest
Odom
Bynum

And they have the best coach in the game making it work.

Heat-Lakers is going to be a really good game.

The Celtics are still really good as well. KG, Pierce, Allen, Rondo, Perkins is a great starting five that matches up really well with the Heat.


----------



## Drewbs

what is lamar odom top 5 at other than underachieving and eating candy?

artest is top 5 at perimeter defense but he can really bog down the offense sometimes.

bynum is a top 5 center when he's healthy, but he's also top 5 at blowing out his knee. actually he might be top 2 in that regard, behind greg oden.

I still think the Lakers are better seeing that the Lakers are going to have absolutely no problem hammering this team inside, even with Haslem. Anyone who doesn't think Bynum and Gasol would eat Bosh alive both on offense and on the boards is fooling themselves. The Lakers are never going to let this team out on transition.


Sir Patchwork said:


> Kobe Bryant is a loser until he demands Pau to be traded. He should have been upset when Artest signed too. Clearly he has a loser's mentality since he wants to play with stars so he can win.
> 
> What's funny is that even with LeBron signing in Miami, Kobe still arguably has better supporting cast. If LeBron took the easy way out, then Kobe has been riding on easy street for two years now.


You need good players around you to win, I don't think anyone is going to deny that, nor is anyone going to say that the Lakers aren't loaded, they are and they have the best starting 5 in the league. 1-6, no other team really compares (except Boston). But seriously, playing with Pau Gasol when you are Kobe is completely different from playing with Wade when you are Lebron. Pau Gasol had never even won a playoff game before, he wasn't a leader, and I want you to answer honesty, do you think a team could ever win a title with Gasol as the leader and first option? The answer is no. The Lakers are always going to be Kobe's team with Gasol always going to be his right hand man that maybe just as important, but its still Kobe taking them to championships. Teaming up with D-Wade is different because Wade IS that guy that can lead. He HAS led a team to a title. Even if Lebron is a better player than Wade, it just screams that this guy thinks that he can't win so he is going to team up with someone who can. Its taking the easy way out. It's like Kevin Garnett going to Boston, only its worse because Lebron is only 25 and in his prime whereas you can make the argument that Garnett only had a short window left to be a major contributor on a championship before he became delegated to another ring chasing fossil. Regardless, even with the Boston title, no one will ever rank him above Tim Duncan.

Here is the way I see it. Lebron joining with Wade isn't like Kobe joining with Gasol. It'd be like Kobe jumping ship from the Lakers in 2007 to join the Spurs. I think you're misinterpreting a lot of this criticism. As a Lakers fan, I'm not criticizing the Heat because they're going to be good, I still think the Lakers are better top to bottom at this point (seeing that the Heat only have 4 players under contract). I'm critical because I thought Lebron had what it takes to be the GOAT, that he was a competitor and would want to play against Wade and Bosh, that he would take a team like the Knicks to the top rather than jump on the gravy train and take the easy way out. He sold out for a ring. He isn't a leader and he either doesn't realize or doesn't care that rings alone don't make you a great player.


----------



## Ben

Not referring to these last few posts, but sheessssshhhh..how did you Laker fans cope with the hate you've been getting for years? I'm bored of it and find it quite hilarious already..can't even be bothered to respond to half of it.


----------



## roux

Sir Patchwork said:


> Kobe Bryant is a loser until he demands Pau to be traded. He should have been upset when Artest signed too. Clearly he has a loser's mentality since he wants to play with stars so he can win.
> 
> What's funny is that even with LeBron signing in Miami, Kobe still arguably has better supporting cast. If LeBron took the easy way out, then Kobe has been riding on easy street for two years now.


those guys came to LA, they came to be with Kobe, i agree that Kobe has had a great supporting cast, the key difference is lebron chased after his


----------



## Shaoxia

Drewbs said:


> what is lamar odom top 5 at other than underachieving and eating candy?
> 
> artest is top 5 at perimeter defense but he can really bog down the offense sometimes.
> 
> bynum is a top 5 center when he's healthy, but he's also top 5 at blowing out his knee. actually he might be top 2 in that regard, behind greg oden.


:laugh: That was pretty good


----------



## Sir Patchwork

roux2dope said:


> those guys came to LA, they came to be with Kobe, i agree that Kobe has had a great supporting cast, the key difference is lebron chased after his


Uh, Kobe whined like a little bitch to get his. 

LeBron did leave, but he didn't chase it. Wade and Bosh were basically begging dude to come play with them. 

The situations are different, but the principle argument roots from the same retardation. The idea that playing with other great players hurts your "legacy" is dumb. And when you use that logic to tear down one player while ignoring that logic for other players just makes it look incredibly bias.


----------



## Shaoxia

roux2dope said:


> those guys came to LA, they came to be with Kobe, i agree that Kobe has had a great supporting cast, the key difference is lebron chased after his


He had to chase after it because no one would come to Cleveland. Cleveland sucks. If Kobe had been drafted by Cleveland he would have refused to play for them or left as soon as his first contract was over.
Kobe has been spoiled by talent from the moment he stepped into the league. When he had to play with bad teammates for only 2 years he threw a tantrum that was way worse than anything LeBron has ever done. Revisionist historians really piss me off.


----------



## 77AJ

roux2dope said:


> those guys came to LA, they came to be with Kobe, i agree that Kobe has had a great supporting cast, the key difference is lebron chased after his


That's completely false. The only guy that came to LA was Ron Artest. Other guys like Pau and Odom were traded to LA. Big difference. Secondly, Kobe would of been as good as gone had LA not got some great players to play with Bryant. And I wouldn't of blamed Bryant one bit. 

Let's also not forget that Ariza walked away from playing with Kobe for more money. Kobe also has the Lakers Brand to work with, who has a history of putting together Great Championship teams. Cleveland Ohio sucks dude bottom line. And their attempts the past 7 years illustrates that clearly. Good for LeBron James to get out while he's still young enough to win some championships with other great players.


----------



## 77AJ

Shaoxia said:


> He had to chase after it because no one would come to Cleveland. Cleveland sucks. If Kobe had been drafted by Cleveland he would have refused to play for them or left as soon as his first contract was over.
> Kobe has been spoiled by talent from the moment he stepped into the league. When he had to play with bad teammates for only 2 years he threw a tantrum that was way worse than anything LeBron has ever done. Revisionist historians really piss me off.


Exactly. Comparing the Organizations of Cleveland's history and LA' Lakers history is comical. LA is a proud Brand who routinely puts together great championship teams loaded with superstar players. Imagine if Kobe' had to play with an over the Hill Shaq, and Mo Williams as his best teammates. We already saw what Kobe and scrubs can do, they suck, end of story. LBJ did the right thing, move on to greener pastures.


----------



## Drewbs

Sir Patchwork said:


> Uh, Kobe whined like a little bitch to get his.
> 
> LeBron did leave, but he didn't chase it. Wade and Bosh were basically begging dude to come play with them.
> 
> The situations are different, but the principle argument roots from the same retardation. The idea that playing with other great players hurts your "legacy" is dumb. And when you use that logic to tear down one player while ignoring that logic for other players just makes it look incredibly bias.


You're missing the point. It's not about playing with other great players.

Kobe played with great talents, Jordan played with great talents, Magic, Bird all of them did. But they led great talents that were not able to lead teams. Gasol and Pippen are great talents, but neither of them could have ever led a team to titles. They just don't have the mindset. They're Batman talents with Robin attitudes. Kobe, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Duncan, never had to depend on these guys for leadership.

You're right if you say that Lebron never got the chance to do that in Cleveland. But he could've done that with New York or Chicago. Both teams were very capable of putting great teams around him.

Being a great player isn't just about how talented you are. And when you talk about the great players that guys like Kobe play with, its not just about how talented they are. They are not guys who can win championships leading their own teams. No one would've thought Gasol was a championship caliber player until he cam to the Lakers. 3 years ago he was soft and a loser, and now this guy is out there schooling Dwight Howard and dominating the Garnett and Perkins.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Sir Patchwork said:


> Kobe Bryant is a loser until he demands Pau to be traded. He should have been upset when Artest signed too. Clearly he has a loser's mentality since he wants to play with stars so he can win.
> 
> What's funny is that even with LeBron signing in Miami, Kobe still arguably has better supporting cast. If LeBron took the easy way out, then Kobe has been riding on easy street for two years now.


what the hell are you talking about man?


----------



## Dre

You heard what he said. There's a reason people still are picking the Lakers to beat the Heat.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

23AJ said:


> Exactly. Comparing the Organizations of Cleveland's history and LA' Lakers history is comical. LA is a proud Brand who routinely puts together great championship teams loaded with superstar players. Imagine if Kobe' had to play with an over the Hill Shaq, and Mo Williams as his best teammates. We already saw what Kobe and scrubs can do, they suck, end of story. LBJ did the right thing, move on to greener pastures.


The right thing was to challenge himself and not take a free ride. 

If he wins in Miami, so what? You won with Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. Congratulations. You admitted that you couldn't win a ring as the main guy (which you would've been on any team other than LA or Miami) and you joined Wade's squad. Way to go. 

If they win, it's because they're a better team. There's no denying that. You can't hate them for winning. But we can have feelings of disdain because he mailed in his legacy. He didn't challenge himself and he basically just jumped on the bandwagon. True greats don't jump on the bandwagon. They see the bandwagon and say, "Screw you guys. I'll beat you."

Don't tell me he doesn't care about his legacy. We all know that's not true.

He will never experience the true triumph that comes from overcoming true adversity and real obstacles. He just bailed and joined a sure-thing. That's not admirable at all.

Before you respond: "But he wants to win!! All he did was give himself the best chance to win!!"....think about what that means. Is what we try to teach people that winning is the only thing that matters? No. It's how you win that matters. True champions don't make the sort of decision that LeBron made.

Maybe it's the media's fault for building him up into something he's not - hell, it's definitely partly the media's fault. It's all of our fault. But it's also LeBron's fault for demanding so much attention, calling himself "The King" and feeding all the hype. Don't expect people to view you as "The King" when you leave your throne to jump on a bandwagon.

I am still shocked by his decision. He basically took a shotgun and blasted his legacy in the face.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Drewbs said:


> You're missing the point. It's not about playing with other great players.
> 
> Kobe played with great talents, Jordan played with great talents, Magic, Bird all of them did. But they led great talents that were not able to lead teams. Gasol and Pippen are great talents, but neither of them could have ever led a team to titles. They just don't have the mindset. They're Batman talents with Robin attitudes. Kobe, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Duncan, never had to depend on these guys for leadership.
> 
> You're right if you say that Lebron never got the chance to do that in Cleveland. But he could've done that with New York or Chicago. Both teams were very capable of putting great teams around him.
> 
> Being a great player isn't just about how talented you are. And when you talk about the great players that guys like Kobe play with, its not just about how talented they are. They are not guys who can win championships leading their own teams. No one would've thought Gasol was a championship caliber player until he cam to the Lakers. 3 years ago he was soft and a loser, and now this guy is out there schooling Dwight Howard and dominating the Garnett and Perkins.


I think you're missing the point. Who cares who he plays with. If Jordan had played with Hakeem Olajuwon, it wouldn't have made him any better or worse of a player. He was what he was, and the situation doesn't change that. He still had the same abilities, different situations. 

LeBron is still the best player in basketball and on his way to GOAT status. Playing with Dwyane Wade instead of Mo Williams doesn't change LeBron James abilities. It just changes his surroundings. 

Him and Wade will share the leadership roles, but leadership is overrated anyways. Pippen was just as much of a leader as Jordan was on that team. While Jordan was tearing his teammates down, Pippen was building them back. It was a good cop/bad cop deal. 

Either way, the main point is that his surroundings don't change the player he is. The people concerned about his "legacy" and trying to keep him down are the ones pretending this signing means anything bad for him. It's going to give him a chance to win a bunch of titles while being as individually dominant as any player ever has been. He is going to make serious history when it's said and done.


----------



## Dre

I do agree with the other side when they say it's going to effect his production, which should be considered a significant part of the resume.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

Sir Patchwork said:


> I think you're missing the point. Who cares who he plays with. If Jordan had played with Hakeem Olajuwon, it wouldn't have made him any better or worse of a player. He was what he was, and the situation doesn't change that. He still had the same abilities, different situations.
> 
> LeBron is still the best player in basketball and on his way to GOAT status. Playing with Dwyane Wade instead of Mo Williams doesn't change LeBron James abilities. It just changes his surroundings.


First of all, if Jordan played with Hakeem, it 100% would have affected his legacy in some way.

And no, he is no longer on his way to GOAT status. He's just not. Your surroundings influence your legacy, and "GOAT status" is a legacy.

He will never go down as the greatest player of all-time. He won't even be close. He might be Top 10, but won't have **** on Jordan.


----------



## BeeGee

Sir Patchwork said:


> LeBron is still the best player in basketball and *on his way to GOAT status.*


:smackalot: Snap out of it. Bron is no doubt gonna be an all-time great, but any SLIM chance of him replacing MJ at the top was rolling on the floor laughing at him up there looking stupid with Jim Gray. You can't be serious.


----------



## Sliccat

Damian Necronamous said:


> First of all, if Jordan played with Hakeem, it 100% would have affected his legacy in some way.
> 
> And no, he is no longer on his way to GOAT status. He's just not. Your surroundings influence your legacy, and "GOAT status" is a legacy.
> 
> He will never go down as the greatest player of all-time. He won't even be close. He might be Top 10, but won't have **** on Jordan.


This is ridiculous. Chicago's big three 96-98 was every bit as good as this big three is. Especially if we're going by your premise that none of these guys is on Jordan's level.

People need to get it through their heads: ALL of the all-time greats had INCREDIBLE supporting casts.

MJ had Pippen and Rodman, two of the greatest to every play at their positions.

Russell had Cousy, both Jones, and Havlicek

Duncan had Ginobili, Robinson, Parker, Bowen,

Bryant had four top 50 players in one year, and they self-destructed. He also won titles with one of the greatest centers ever, and another top-10 player in Gasol

Great players need great teams to do great things, and all of the really great ones figured this out, including Jordan and Bryant. People are blind.


----------



## PauloCatarino

BeeGee said:


> :smackalot: Snap out of it. Bron is no doubt gonna be an all-time great, but any SLIM chance of him replacing MJ at the top was rolling on the floor laughing at him up there looking stupid with Jim Gray. You can't be serious.


Maybe people are thinking LeLoser can still put up 30/7/8 playing alongside Wade and Bosh... :whoknows:


----------



## Ron

FX™ said:


> Not referring to these last few posts, but sheessssshhhh..how did you Laker fans cope with the hate you've been getting for years? I'm bored of it and find it quite hilarious already..can't even be bothered to respond to half of it.


Championships.

No better tonic in the world.

Other than that, we just let the hate roll off our back. It's nothing new. But its very easy to ignore.


----------



## Dre

Sliccat said:


> This is ridiculous. Chicago's big three 96-98 was every bit as good as this big three is. Especially if we're going by your premise that none of these guys is on Jordan's level.
> 
> People need to get it through their heads: ALL of the all-time greats had INCREDIBLE supporting casts.
> 
> MJ had Pippen and Rodman, two of the greatest to every play at their positions.
> 
> Russell had Cousy, both Jones, and Havlicek
> 
> Duncan had Ginobili, Robinson, Parker, Bowen,
> 
> Bryant had four top 50 players in one year, and they self-destructed. He also won titles with one of the greatest centers ever, and another top-10 player in Gasol
> 
> Great players need great teams to do great things, and all of the really great ones figured this out, including Jordan and Bryant. People are blind.


I think the main idiotic drawback for people is that LeBron moved instead of them moving to him.


----------



## IbizaXL

tarnished legacy. wow. Im starting to think these guys believe their own bull-****.


----------



## IbizaXL

Dre™ said:


> I think the main idiotic drawback for people is that LeBron moved instead of them moving to him.


pretty much. they have such a weak case, thats all they can hold on to. Even then, its not as big a deal as some make it out to be.


----------



## E.H. Munro

God knows that going to the New York Yankees demolished Reggie Jackson's legacy. All anyone remembers him for is his stint as a ring-chaser. Roger Clemens? Ring chasing pansy. Mike Maddox? Complete loser. No one will ever give that loser a hall of fame vote. He couldn't win as the linchpin of a pitching staff so he ran off to Atnalta to chase after ring. Manny Ramirez? Curt Schilling? Pedro Martinez? Losers, all of them. Legacies ruined by their heading for greener pastures to win.


----------



## Ron

*Inside 'The Decision': Miami's coup was a 'surprise' built on long-coveted goal...*

*Inside 'The Decision': Miami's coup was a 'surprise' built on long-coveted goal of James, Wade and Bosh*

It's starting already.

Gonna be fun reading about all the things crawling out of the woodwork the next few days.


----------



## IbizaXL

*Re: Inside 'The Decision': Miami's coup was a 'surprise' built on long-coveted goal..*



Ron said:


> *Inside 'The Decision': Miami's coup was a 'surprise' built on long-coveted goal of James, Wade and Bosh*
> 
> It's starting already.
> 
> Gonna be fun reading about all the things crawling out of the woodwork the next few days.


You honestly think this kind of thing is rare in sports where a few players who are good friends talk about the possibility of playing together? really? 

but hey, just a bitter clevelander in the media trying to turn this into a soap opera.


----------



## IbizaXL

E.H. Munro said:


> God knows that going to the New York Yankees demolished Reggie Jackson's legacy. All anyone remembers him for is his stint as a ring-chaser. Roger Clemens? Ring chasing pansy. Mike Maddox? Complete loser. No one will ever give that loser a hall of fame vote. He couldn't win as the linchpin of a pitching staff so he ran off to Atnalta to chase after ring. Manny Ramirez? Curt Schilling? Pedro Martinez? Losers, all of them. Legacies ruined by their heading for greener pastures to win.


lets not forget when Payton and Malone went to L.A. With Payton winning it in Miami in 2006. Horrible legacies left behind. they just couldnt cut it by being the "main man".


----------



## Ron

*Re: Inside 'The Decision': Miami's coup was a 'surprise' built on long-coveted goal..*



IbizaXL said:


> You honestly think this kind of thing is rare in sports where a few players who are good friends talk about the possibility of playing together? really?
> 
> but hey, just a bitter clevelander in the media trying to turn this into a soap opera.


Do you really think your one-liners are going to change anyone's opinion?

Obviously these guys talked about it.

Do you think the NBA is just going to ignore Bosh's slip of the tongue? I find it quite amusing...it seems you are being quite defensive.


----------



## Jakain

> *'Decision' watched by nearly 10 million
> *
> 
> NEW YORK -- The Nielsen Co. estimates 9.95 million people watched LeBron James announce on ESPN that he's leaving Cleveland to play for the Miami Heat, *making it the third-most-watched program on cable  television this year.*
> 
> "The Decision" that aired Thursday night ranks behind the 12.3 million who watched the NFL Pro Bowl and 11.2 million who watched an episode of "ICarly" on Nickelodeon in January.
> The special was of particular interest in Cleveland, where an estimated one in four homes with televisions tuned in.
> 
> James' future can't yet compare to Kobe Bryant's present, however. *More than 28 million people watched Bryant win his fifth championship* last month in the seventh game of the NBA Finals between the Los Angeles Lakers and Boston Celtics.
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=5371061&type=story


$$$$

ICarly > LeBron?


----------



## Cap

Yeah, I said this as soon as the trade happened; if Bosh, Wade, and/or LeBron talked about joining up in that way it does clearly violate the tampering rules. Bosh in particular has to be careful because he's more outspoken and seems weak-minded like that to slip up with careless wording. Honestly wouldn't surprise me if Stern finds evidence of it and decides to nullify some of the signings. Not that he should, but if it's against the rules can you really claim it's not justified? Granted I fully expect this to be the Heat's core 3 and for nothing to happen, but a lot of stupid ish has been said by Bosh and Stern has done controversial things in the past certainly, like suspending Amare for the Spurs series 3 years ago, and that was controversial despite Amare clearly violating the sideline rules.


----------



## thaKEAF

^ you got a larger pic of that avy?


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

Remember when Jordan couldn't beat Isiah Thomas' Pistons in the playoffs for a while, so he decided to join the Pistons? Or when Magic beat Bird, so Bird signed a FA deal with the Lakers? 

Wait.


----------



## lakeshows

BeeGee said:


> :smackalot: Snap out of it. Bron is no doubt gonna be an all-time great, but any SLIM chance of him replacing MJ at the top was rolling on the floor laughing at him up there looking stupid with Jim Gray. You can't be serious.


Your sig is stupid. Ridiculously stupid. He said that when he was with Cleveland. Not only that, but it was during the regular season while he was still playing with them and trying his hardest. If it was after the playoffs when they were knocked out then it would be different, but it was ******* when he was still playing in the regular season as a Cleveland Cavalier. What the **** do you expect him to say?

I shouldn't expect any better from ***** *** Kobe fans though.

And in terms of a legacy Kobe has *NONE.* He has NEVER won a title in which his team was not the best team in the league. He wasn't even close to the best player on his team for the first 3. In fact his team was so stacked he could go 6-24 at home in game 7 of the NBA finals and they still won.

Also Kobe has lost 2 NBA finals in his PRIME something an all time great would never do. 

So there's your Kobe legacy: NONE AND OVERRATED.


----------



## Kneejoh

lakeshows said:


> Your sig is stupid. Ridiculously stupid. He said that when he was with Cleveland. Not only that, but it was during the regular season while he was still playing with them and trying his hardest. If it was after the playoffs when they were knocked out then it would be different, but it was ******* when he was still playing in the regular season as a Cleveland Cavalier. What the **** do you expect him to say?
> 
> I shouldn't expect any better from ***** *** Kobe fans though.
> 
> And in terms of a legacy Kobe has *NONE.* He has NEVER won a title in which his team was not the best team in the league. He wasn't even close to the best player on his team for the first 3. In fact his team was so stacked he could go 6-24 at home in game 7 of the NBA finals and they still won.
> 
> Also Kobe has lost 2 NBA finals in his PRIME something an all time great would never do.
> 
> So there's your Kobe legacy: NONE AND OVERRATED.


So Magic and Bird aren't legends since they both lost twice in the finals during their primes. And Jordan isn't for shooting 5-19 in game 6 of the NBA finals in 96, 97, or 98(can't remember which year)


----------



## Kneejoh

oh bummer it looks like Jerry West, Karl Malone, Kareem Abdul Jabbar and John Stockton aren't either.


----------



## ATLien

Ummm what? :laugh:



> CHICAGO -- The Rev. Jesse Jackson says Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert sees LeBron James as a "runaway slave" and that his comments after the forward decided to join the Miami Heat put the player in danger.
> 
> Shortly after James announced his decision Thursday night, Gilbert fired off an incendiary letter to Cleveland's fans, ripping the 25-year-old and promising to deliver a title before James wins one. He called James' decision "cowardly" and later told The Associated Press he believes James quit during a handful of Cavaliers playoff games.
> 
> Jackson says Gilbert's comments "personify a slave master mentality" and the owner should face a "challenge" from the league.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Damian Necronamous said:


> The right thing was to challenge himself and not take a free ride.


Should Kobe have forced his way out of LA when they acquired Gasol to "challenge himself" to win a title without such a dominant supporting cast? Should he have confronted the Lakers management about signing Artest and trading for Gasol, since it gave him a "free ride" to a title as you say. 

Please use your logic consistently. 



Damian Necronamous said:


> If he wins in Miami, so what? You won with Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. Congratulations. You admitted that you couldn't win a ring as the main guy (which you would've been on any team other than LA or Miami) and you joined Wade's squad. Way to go.


Uh, LeBron is the best player in the league according to the vast majority of fans. It's not even close. So LeBron would be the main guy on any team, even your beloved Lakers.


----------



## Kneejoh

ATLien said:


> Ummm what? :laugh:


Oh not this **** again. I had a guy in my african american class try to argue that Cristiano Ronaldo is a modern day slave. Please Rev. I know what you've done, you won't be forgotten but how in the hell is this the same?


----------



## ChiBron

Chan said:


> Remember when Jordan couldn't beat Isiah Thomas' Pistons in the playoffs for a while, so he decided to join the Pistons? Or when Magic beat Bird, so Bird signed a FA deal with the Lakers?
> 
> Wait.


Not a fan of LeBron joining Miami, but these are awful analogies. LeBron didn't join Miami after losing to Wade. They have never even matched-up in the playoffs. This wasn't the can't-beat-em-so-join-em act people are making it out to be. LeBron had no reason to fear Miami this upcoming season. When it gets down to it, he went their because he wanted to play with his friends. And it's the only thing he's gained too - 2 friends. He sure as **** lost everything else.


----------



## Tragedy

At the end of the day, he joined for a couple easy to see reasons. Less pressure/better opportunity - and he gets to play with a couple of his best NBA friends. It'll be like the summer of 08 again, and sorta like high school all over. 


People put this MJ thing on Lebron, but all he's ever said was he wants to be the biggest brand really - not the greatest ever. He must have also seen what Kobe has been through - no one will ever allow anyone to be bigger/better than Jordan, and really, if he wins 4 or more titles, people will forget everything.


----------



## Dre

Naw he definitely has a chance to have people prefer him to Jordan in 15 years. Kobe never had a shot because he had MJ's skillset to a tee...LeBron has his own skillset and talents that noone in history had, so I could see where 5 titles down the line people could say they preferred LeBron to MJ. 

If anything he has less of a chance to eclipse Jordan as a brand than he does as a player. All this brand talk is kind of overrated considering right off the bat nobodies going to buy his shoes like people bought Jordans...that was the springboard for the Air Jordan brand. I'm sure he'll find ways to get his piece of the pie, but it'll be more like Magic, where he's an entrepreneur than Jordan, who got the bulk of his fortune directly based off Jordan the player.


----------



## Dre

I'm trying to figure this out...the same people who are crying about how unfair and videogamesque the Huge 3 is are the same people that don't think they'll even win a title anytime soon. 

Can't have it both ways


----------



## Adam

The thing that's lost in all this: he's the same player either way!

People say if he stayed in Cleveland and won one championship he would have a better legacy than going to Miami and winning many championships.

He's the same person either way! lol.

What you guys are talking about is the narrative changing. All the phony, narrative bull**** that we attach. The perception is different but it's the same person.

What you guys are admitting is that you historically hype up players based on a cinderella story. Well tough ****. There are more stories than fairy tales out there. There are team records out there to be broken. I for one hope to see a 72+ win season.


----------



## Blue

Adam said:


> The thing that's lost in all this: he's the same player either way!
> 
> People say if he stayed in Cleveland and won one championship he would have a better legacy than going to Miami and winning many championships.
> 
> He's the same person either way! lol.
> 
> What you guys are talking about is the narrative changing. All the phony, narrative bull**** that we attach. The perception is different but it's the same person.
> 
> What you guys are admitting is that you historically hype up players based on a cinderella story. Well tough ****. There are more stories than fairy tales out there. There are team records out there to be broken. I for one hope to see a 72+ win season.


This doesn't make any sense bro. I think we ALL know who he is. 

Im not mad @ him personally, but I think the beef w/ most people is on the basis of what other elite players would've done in his position... I mean, we dont think Magic would've ever made a pact to team up with Bird, or w/ Jordan or vice-versa or what have you... You know the 2 or 3 clear cut best players usually wanted to beat each other so that they could be the man, not join forces(or at least that's what we thought)... But it is what it is. It was Lebrons decision, but it sucks if you're not a Heat fan lol. I dont think you can really say he cheated the game, but the two clear cut best players in the league just joined forces... And they got another top 10 player to boot. Alot of people are SHOCKED. 

People wouldn't have been so critical to see him join up with another top 10-15 player like Amare, or join up with acpl of top 25 players in Chicago, but the best player in the league just joined the 2nd best player. When has that ever happened? I've seen guys grow together like Kobe/Shaq, Stockton/Malone, Jordan/Pippen, but I dont think ive ever seen two of the top 2/3 players decide to link up in their prime. People are shocked. Of course he's gonna get a ring now, he playing on the damn East all-star team.


----------



## Dre

So since we're being so imaginative in this thread, why did Kobe say he would only play for the Lakers during his draft cycle?


----------



## Blue

Cause he wanted to play with Shaq.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Dre™ said:


> So since we're being so imaginative in this thread, why did Kobe say he would only play for the Lakers during his draft cycle?


He didn't say that, you remember incorrectly. He said he only wanted to play in a big market so that he can get more attention and marketing opportunities.


----------



## Dre

I don't remember any of this, I was 8 back then, that's why I asked. I've seen numerous places, here especially, where Kobe pulled a John Elway...could it have anything to do with their history of providing their superstars great teams full of quality/all-star players?


----------



## Jamel Irief

Dre™ said:


> I don't remember any of this, I was 8 back then, that's why I asked. I've seen numerous places, here especially, where Kobe pulled a John Elway...could it have anything to do with their history of providing their superstars great teams full of quality/all-star players?


No, if anyone here said that they are incorrect as well. He would of played for Philly, New Jersey or the Clippers who all passed up Kobe. You won't find any professional account of Kobe claiming that. Just read his post draft interview.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Dre™ said:


> I don't remember any of this, I was 8 back then, that's why I asked. I've seen numerous places, here especially, where Kobe pulled a John Elway...could it have anything to do with their history of providing their superstars great teams full of quality/all-star players?


Why do you hate the Lakers, Dre?


----------



## Jamel Irief

E.H. Munro said:


> Why do you hate the Lakers, Dre?


Yes he hates Kobe and I hate LeBron. We are all bitter haters for your self conceived reasons!


----------



## Jamel Irief

Jamel Irief said:


> No, if anyone here said that they are incorrect as well. He would of played for Philly, New Jersey or the Clippers who all passed up Kobe. You won't find any professional account of Kobe claiming that. Just read his post draft interview.


Oh and Oakland.


----------



## Dre

Blue Magic said:


> Cause he wanted to play with Shaq.


I'll keep it 100, I wanted that to be my point, but Shaq didn't officially sign until the July following the draft. I'd bet the momentum leaned in that direction but I wasn't who I am now to say for myself, so forget it.

But even still, my point remained, even a 17 year old Kobe realized you need great players around you to win titles, and who has a better history than the Lakers? With one of the original big 3s apparently in West/Baylor/Chamberlain? 

Let's be for real.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Dre™ said:


> I'll keep it 100, I wanted that to be my point, but Shaq didn't officially sign until the July following the draft. I'd bet the momentum leaned in that direction but I wasn't who I am now to say for myself, so forget it.
> 
> But even still, my point remained, even a 17 year old Kobe realized you need great players around you to win titles, and who has a better history than the Lakers? With one of the original big 3s apparently in West/Baylor/Chamberlain?
> 
> Let's be for real.


However all along he, Sonny Vaccaro and his agent claimed he wanted to be in a big market. Don't know how or what told you he only wanted to go to the Lakers, and apparently you don't either.


----------



## Dre

> Couldn’t Bryant be a Hornet? Could he grow to love Southern sweet tea?
> 
> “That is an impossibility,” Bryant’s agent, Arn Tellem, said at the time. “There are no ifs. It would not happen. He is going to be a Laker, and that’s the only team he’s playing for.”


Quote from his agent...don't try to play me like I'm talking out of my ass.

http://select.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/sports/29roberts.html?_r=1


----------



## Jamel Irief

Dre™ said:


> Quote from his agent...don't try to play me like I'm talking out of my ass.
> 
> http://select.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/sports/29roberts.html?_r=1


If that quote is post draft, it is referring to the pre draft deal the Hornets had with the Lakers to trade their pick for Vlade. The Lakers told them who to draft.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Dre™ said:


> Quote from his agent...don't try to play me like I'm talking out of my ass.
> 
> http://select.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/sports/29roberts.html?_r=1


Just more evidence of your anti-Laker agenda.


----------



## Gilgamesh

Personally I was hoping he stayed in Cleveland because yeah I do believe if he wins 1 or 2 there it means more to his legacy than winning 3 or 4 with the Heat. Not winning a ring in Cleveland is definitely a blotch on his resume but it is better than not winning a title at all and if Lebron thinks he couldn't win one or multiples with the Cavs then that is why he is with the Heat.

But I think people are too hard on Lebron. I mean he was not as blessed as say Magic who was drafted on a team with a MVP Kareem or the Celtics who had a genius at Helm with Red. With NBA economics today it is hard to build teams like the 80s and how many times can you draft a guy like Pippen? 

But I feel sorry for the Cavs cause they did as much as they could to surround Lebron with talent. As poorly as Mo played in the playoffs the guy did go to an all-star game. As old and poorly as Shaq played last season everybody was blaming the Cavs head office for not trading for Shaq the year prior to combat Howard. Jamison is not Pippen but the guy is a former all-star and even though aged he still put up solid numbers. The Cavs posted the best record for the last two years and can't even get a sniff in the Finals even with Lebron dominating in 2009 playoffs. Does anyone know the Cavs regular season record against playoff teams the last two years? That would be telling especially if majority of their wins came from sub par teams which separates regular season teams and playoff teams.

Lebron better win at least 3 titles with the Heat that's all I am going to say...


----------



## Ron

Dre™ said:


> Quote from his agent...don't try to play me like I'm talking out of my ass.
> 
> http://select.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/sports/29roberts.html?_r=1


That quote has no relevance if it doesn't have a date to go along with it.

Obviously, the Lakers at the time made a trade for Charlotte's 13th pick and told Charlotte that they wanted them to pick Kobe, should he be available at the time.

It's not like the Lakers rule the world or anything.

Oh, wait.


----------



## Dre

Jamel Irief said:


> If that quote is post draft, it is referring to the pre draft deal the Hornets had with the Lakers to trade their pick for Vlade. The Lakers told them who to draft.


Stop it 5. Kobe wasn't playing for anyone but the Lakers. If Kobe wanted the market to be opened up Tellem wouldn't have said "he is playing with nobody but the Lakers", he would've said "he is open to playing anywhere besides Charlotte." When do you ever hear agents talk in such specific, limiting terms? "Player X is only playing for Team X" 

When they know their client and his intentions.

And now that most of us have that information ingested, we can ask ourselves in what context is this decision relevant to this thread?

Perhaps Kobe, like LeBron, realized it took great players to do great things? (outside the box thinker huh) 

And what franchise better than the Lakers, who had a consistent history of building championships around HOF players? 

LeBron isn't doing anything wrong here. Half the people are mad that the big 3 teamed up but they'll also readily admit they won't even win a title for at least a couple years... 

And the other half are mad at this decision because Wade and Bosh didn't go to Cleveland.

:sarcasm: 

I'm over it.


----------



## Jamel Irief

E.H. Munro said:


> Just more evidence of your anti-Laker agenda.


It's your MO to claim everyone that disagrees with you has an agenda, not mine. I say you have a anti-Laker agenda because when people say something critical of Lebron you claim they have the agenda. Everyone is either bitter because he's not on their team or scared he's going to take rings.

It's no different when Blue Magic claims a healthy Jameer would went along way against Boston in 2009 and then you turn around and say the same thing about Kendrick Perkins. You're a hypocrite. 

Now step aside and let people talk hoops.


----------



## Dre

> With the 16th pick, the Hornets already had their eye on a guard – Santa Clara's Steve Nash, who had worked out with the team shortly before the draft. The Hornets had invited Bryant for a workout, but he cancelled the visit. The team had scouted Bryant twice but wanted a private workout to get a better feel for his potential.
> 
> "He wouldn't work out with us and that bothered us," Bass said. "We couldn't meet him. His agent was trying to aim him to the Lakers and they threatened us."
> 
> The Hornets got the message that if they drafted Bryant, he wouldn't play in Charlotte.
> 
> They weren't the only team to be warned off taking Bryant for their own.
> 
> The New Jersey Nets, coached by John Calipari, considered Bryant with the eighth pick but chose Villanova's Kerry Kittles after hearing a similar message.
> 
> The Philadelphia 76ers had seen Bryant play regularly but instead used the No. 1 pick to draft point guard Allen Iverson from Georgetown. Twelve teams passed on Bryant before the Hornets took him.
> 
> Read more: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/03/05/1289903/passing-on-kobe.html#ixzz0tQtRYYvJ





> Before a Lakers game against New York in his rookie season, Bryant was asked what would have happened had the Hornets not traded him.
> 
> "I'd be a Hornet," Bryant said. "Right now I'd be watching this game on TV."
> 
> Read more: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/03/05/1289903/passing-on-kobe.html#ixzz0tQuEFNwP


All due respect I'm more inclined to go with league officials than message boarders.

And yes, within that article it says Tellem's quote was a day after the draft, but like I said, why would Tellem say "only the Lakers"? 

Why would Kobe, he of translucent lazer, star wars beam basketball focus dare sit out of a basketball game? Because he was only going to the Lakers, and he wouldn't step on the court until he was in purple and gold, period.

Get out of denial :laugh:


----------



## Jamel Irief

Dre™ said:


> Stop it 5. Kobe wasn't playing for anyone but the Lakers. If Kobe wanted the market to be opened up Tellem wouldn't have said "he is playing with nobody but the Lakers", he would've said "he is open to playing anywhere besides Charlotte." When do you ever hear agents talk in such specific, limiting terms? "Player X is only playing for Team X"
> 
> When they know their client and his intentions.
> 
> And now that most of us have that information ingested, we can ask ourselves in what context is this decision relevant to this thread?
> 
> Perhaps Kobe, like LeBron, realized it took great players to do great things? (outside the box thinker huh)


There were days between the draft and the Kobe-Vlade trade. If that quote was made in those days it means nothing.



> And what franchise better than the Lakers, who had a consistent history of building championships around HOF players?
> 
> LeBron isn't doing anything wrong here. Half the people are mad that the big 3 teamed up but they'll also readily admit they won't even win a title for at least a couple years...
> 
> And the other half are mad at this decision because Wade and Bosh didn't go to Cleveland.
> 
> :sarcasm:
> 
> I'm over it.


The Lakers lost in the first round the year before. Everything centering around Kobe's desires were to build his image up and put him in a place with a great structure. Not to have Van Exel, Jones and Campbell lead him to a ring. It's more like a Eli Manning thing, which doesn't make it right either.

You comparing LeBron to a 17 year old primmadonna doesn't reflect greatly on the King.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Dre™ said:


> All due respect I'm more inclined to go with league officials than message boarders.
> 
> And yes, within that article it says Tellem's quote was a day after the draft, but like I said, why would Tellem say "only the Lakers"?
> 
> Get out of denial.


Because the deal was already in place? Does that not make sense to you?

Why don't you find Kobe's interview post-draft?


----------



## Damian Necronamous

Dre™ said:


> Stop it 5. Kobe wasn't playing for anyone but the Lakers. If Kobe wanted the market to be opened up Tellem wouldn't have said "he is playing with nobody but the Lakers", he would've said "he is open to playing anywhere besides Charlotte." When do you ever hear agents talk in such specific, limiting terms? "Player X is only playing for Team X"
> 
> When they know their client and his intentions.
> 
> And now that most of us have that information ingested, we can ask ourselves in what context is this decision relevant to this thread?
> 
> Perhaps Kobe, like LeBron, realized it took great players to do great things? (outside the box thinker huh)
> 
> And what franchise better than the Lakers, who had a consistent history of building championships around HOF players?
> 
> LeBron isn't doing anything wrong here. Half the people are mad that the big 3 teamed up but they'll also readily admit they won't even win a title for at least a couple years...
> 
> And the other half are mad at this decision because Wade and Bosh didn't go to Cleveland.
> 
> :sarcasm:
> 
> I'm over it.


They just dominated your argument by noting that the date of that quote is the entire key to its meaning, and your only response was to restate your opinion?

Weak sauce. Weak sauce.

(Go Lakers fans)


----------



## Ron

Dre™ said:


> All due respect I'm more inclined to go with league officials than message boarders.
> 
> And yes, within that article it says Tellem's quote was a day after the draft, but like I said, why would Tellem say "only the Lakers"?
> 
> Why would Kobe, he of translucent lazer, star wars beam basketball focus dare sit out of a basketball game? Because he was only going to the Lakers, and he wouldn't step on the court until he was in yellow and gold, period.
> 
> Get out of denial :laugh:


*When the Charlotte Hornets made Bryant the 13th pick in the 1996 draft, a buzz rippled through the Meadowlands in East Rutherford, N.J., where the event was held. It was an unexpected choice by a team that desperately needed a big man.

But Bryant was never going to be a Charlotte Hornet. The Hornets wanted Los Angeles Lakers center Vlade Divac, and to get him they agreed to draft Bryant and trade him for Divac.

Bryant was drafted on June 26 and, after nearly two weeks of threats and negotiations, Divac agreed to be traded to Charlotte on July 8.

With four NBA championships, one MVP award, one Finals MVP and a place among the NBA's all-time greats, Bryant returns to Charlotte tonight to face the Bobcats in what might have been his basketball home.

"It looks like hell now, but you know how that is," says Bob Bass, who made the deal with the Lakers when he was the Hornets' vice president.*

Read more: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/03/05/1289903/passing-on-kobe.html#ixzz0tQvNHQan

I don't get what is your point anyway?

If you read the rest of the article, you can see that it was by mutual decision for both teams.

Charlotte needed a center and got one. It's not like they felt like their backs were against the wall. Divac is the one who had to be forced to take the trade.

Jesus, this happened 14 years ago! Who is in denial? As I said, I am not sure what your point is.


----------



## Dre

The one where he says what he's supposed to say? Where he said, "oh, I'm just happy to be in the NBA?"

I saw that one, but that's BS and we both know it. 



> The Lakers lost in the first round the year before. Everything centering around Kobe's desires were to build his image up and put him in a place with a great structure. Not to have Van Exel, Jones and Campbell lead him to a ring. It's more like a Eli Manning thing, which doesn't make it right either.
> 
> You comparing LeBron to a 17 year old primmadonna doesn't reflect greatly on the King.


SO LeBron doesn't want to build his reputation up and go to a place with a great structure? Pat Riley, an Owner willing to spend?

And why do we keep up with this misconception LeBron won't be anything but the best player on the court every night, no matter who they play? He's not being "led" anywhere.


----------



## Dre

Ron said:


> *When the Charlotte Hornets made Bryant the 13th pick in the 1996 draft, a buzz rippled through the Meadowlands in East Rutherford, N.J., where the event was held. It was an unexpected choice by a team that desperately needed a big man.
> 
> But Bryant was never going to be a Charlotte Hornet. The Hornets wanted Los Angeles Lakers center Vlade Divac, and to get him they agreed to draft Bryant and trade him for Divac.
> 
> Bryant was drafted on June 26 and, after nearly two weeks of threats and negotiations, Divac agreed to be traded to Charlotte on July 8.
> 
> With four NBA championships, one MVP award, one Finals MVP and a place among the NBA's all-time greats, Bryant returns to Charlotte tonight to face the Bobcats in what might have been his basketball home.
> 
> "It looks like hell now, but you know how that is," says Bob Bass, who made the deal with the Lakers when he was the Hornets' vice president.*
> 
> Read more: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/03/05/1289903/passing-on-kobe.html#ixzz0tQvNHQan
> 
> I don't get what is your point anyway?
> 
> If you read the rest of the article, you can see that it was by mutual decision for both teams.
> 
> Charlotte needed a center and got one. It's not like they felt like their backs were against the wall. Divac is the one who had to be forced to take the trade.
> 
> Jesus, this happened 14 years ago! Who is in denial? As I said, I am not sure what your point is.


Like I said my point is Kobe was only going to the Lakers because he knew they had a history of building winners around HOF players. I think BTW in the last 3 posts that's the third time I said that.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Dre™;6322577 said:


> All due respect I'm more inclined to go with league officials than message boarders.
> 
> And yes, within that article it says Tellem's quote was a day after the draft, but like I said, why would Tellem say "only the Lakers"?
> 
> Why would Kobe, he of translucent lazer, star wars beam basketball focus dare sit out of a basketball game? Because he was only going to the Lakers, and he wouldn't step on the court until he was in purple and gold, period.
> 
> Get out of denial :laugh:


I give you credit for labouring this long. But you'll never convince him. You're obviously biased against the Lakers.


----------



## Dre

Damian Necronamous said:


> They just dominated your argument by noting that the date of that quote is the entire key to its meaning, and your only response was to restate your opinion?
> 
> Weak sauce. Weak sauce.
> 
> (Go Lakers fans)


That parenthesis just let me know where your head is at, but I'll reply anyway...like I said no Agent that has anything but tunnel vision is going to say their client is going "nowhere but LA." 

Find me 3 instances in the entire history of American sports where an agent of a drafted player said he was "only" playing for a team he wasn't currently on. 

FOH.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

Have some people forgotten the hissy fits Kobe threw about getting better teammates? He wanted to win, same as LeBron. 

It wasn't going to be possible for Wade and Bosh to both come to Cleveland, so they went to Miami instead. Big deal. It would have been better for him to do it quietly, but overall I don't understand all the criticism.


----------



## Dre

E.H. Munro said:


> I give you credit for labouring this long. But you'll never convince him. You're obviously biased against the Lakers.


I feel like LeBron against the Magic at this point...pun very much intended.


----------



## Ron

It's unlikely there will be a tampering investigation.

I just heard on espBRON that the NBA has made it clear they will investigate any charges that the Cavs or Raptors will bring, but...

...indications are that neither team will make a request for investigation.


----------



## E.H. Munro

I don't think that players can be guilty of tampering.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> Have some people forgotten the hissy fits Kobe threw about getting better teammates? He wanted to win, same as LeBron.
> 
> It wasn't going to be possible for Wade and Bosh to both come to Cleveland, so they went to Miami instead. Big deal. It would have been better for him to do it quietly, but overall I don't understand all the criticism.


Absolutely right. Lakers fans should know this better than anyone, but when you're the best, people will find reasons to hate you no matter what you do. LeBron James is the best. 

1. If he stayed in Cleveland, they'd keep hating him for not winning titles. 
2. If he goes to the team with the best chance of winning titles (Miami), they'll hate him for joining a stacked team.
3. If he went to Chicago, they would hate him for trying to imitate Jordan. 
4. if he went to New York, they would hate him for being an attention whore in a city that would keep him in the spotlight and further his celebrity status. 

It's just like Kobe in 2006. People will find any reason to hate him, but the real reason is because he is a legend...and he is arrogant to boot. I guess that arrogance clouds people's ability to judge players objectively.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

E.H. Munro said:


> I don't think that players can be guilty of tampering.


I personally don't see a problem with players talking to each other about wanting to play together.


----------



## Ron

E.H. Munro said:


> I don't think that players can be guilty of tampering.


I should have clarified. Any accusations of tampering would be against the Miami Heat.

Apparently the only accusations are by media personnel at this point.

Indications are that neither the Cavs or Raptors will press for an investigation.


----------



## Dre

I have a hard time seeing Amare say "come on to New York Carmelo" after a game and nothing happening to him.


----------



## Cap

lakeshows said:


> Your sig is stupid. Ridiculously stupid. He said that when he was with Cleveland. Not only that, but it was during the regular season while he was still playing with them and trying his hardest. If it was after the playoffs when they were knocked out then it would be different, but it was ******* when he was still playing in the regular season as a Cleveland Cavalier. What the **** do you expect him to say?
> 
> I shouldn't expect any better from ***** *** Kobe fans though.
> 
> And in terms of a legacy Kobe has *NONE.* He has NEVER won a title in which his team was not the best team in the league. He wasn't even close to the best player on his team for the first 3. In fact his team was so stacked he could go 6-24 at home in game 7 of the NBA finals and they still won.
> 
> Also Kobe has lost 2 NBA finals in his PRIME something an all time great would never do.
> 
> So there's your Kobe legacy: NONE AND OVERRATED.


Watching you wring your hands these last two years hoping the Lakers would lose in the Finals has been especially fun. And lmao @ an all time great not losing twice in the Finals; Magic lost *four* separate times in the Finals and Bird twice, lol.


----------



## Ron

Sir Patchwork said:


> Absolutely right. Lakers fans should know this better than anyone, but when you're the best, people will find reasons to hate you no matter what you do. LeBron James is the best.
> 
> 1. If he stayed in Cleveland, they'd keep hating him for not winning titles.
> 2. If he goes to the team with the best chance of winning titles (Miami), they'll hate him for joining a stacked team.
> 3. If he went to Chicago, they would hate him for trying to imitate Jordan.
> 4. if he went to New York, they would hate him for being an attention whore in a city that would keep him in the spotlight and further his celebrity status.
> 
> It's just like Kobe in 2006. People will find any reason to hate him, but the real reason is because he is a legend...and he is arrogant to boot. I guess that arrogance clouds people's ability to judge players objectively.


I agree with this.

Add to this list: If he stays in Cleveland, people will think all he cares about is the money. Because there is no way he is winning a title there.

Edit: Just saw no. 1. Sorry, LOL.

I will add that arrogance has to be a given. It comes with the territory...if people are hating on Kobe and LeBron for their arrogance, then they just don't understand the modern athlete's mind set.


----------



## Ron

lakeshows said:


> Your sig is stupid. Ridiculously stupid. He said that when he was with Cleveland. Not only that, but it was during the regular season while he was still playing with them and trying his hardest. If it was after the playoffs when they were knocked out then it would be different, but it was ******* when he was still playing in the regular season as a Cleveland Cavalier. What the **** do you expect him to say?
> 
> I shouldn't expect any better from ***** *** Kobe fans though.
> 
> And in terms of a legacy Kobe has *NONE.* He has NEVER won a title in which his team was not the best team in the league. He wasn't even close to the best player on his team for the first 3. In fact his team was so stacked he could go 6-24 at home in game 7 of the NBA finals and they still won.
> 
> *Also Kobe has lost 2 NBA finals in his PRIME something an all time great would never do.
> 
> So there's your Kobe legacy: NONE AND OVERRATED.*


Congratulations.

With this post, you have lost any credibility you ever had, which wasn't much to begin with.


----------



## Kneejoh

I have no problem where Lebron goes or where he chose to go, however comparing Kobe's situation to Lebron's isn't the same. Kobe didn't get together in the offseason with two of the top 10 players and say let's play together because I can't win by myself. For those saying that Lebron is the same player in Miami as he is in Cleveland yes that completely true. But it doesn't change the fact that he had to have the second or third best player in the league on his team, who is arguably better than him , in order to win a championship. 

To those saying that everybody needs help, you have to put it into context and stop looking at it as if it is black and white. As everybody knows you will be judged on how much you win, and you need good teammates to win, but there are also difference in how much help you have. It isn't so black and white as having good teammates vs. having bad teammates, there are many levels of gray. That's why Lebron's situation is different than any other players before him, he is the first to hook up with somebody on his level to try to win a ring. Everybody has had help but rarely, really rarely has the help been better or almost as good as the leader of the team, and that is why Lebron's legacy will take a small hit, because he wasn't able to lead a team to a championship without 2 all stars, that is something that even Kobe has never played with.


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

It's easier to defer to another superstar than to defer to role players. Most people thought the 'The King' or the 'Chosen One' wanted to take the reins. He doesn't. Worst part is, this isn't even a financially motivated decision. He left because he lacked faith in his own city.

Should have seen this coming. He's was a Cleveland-born Yankee fan after all. Any non-New Yorker rooting for the Yankees is a giant douche.


----------



## jokeaward

Brand was around 10th best when Kobe could've joined him, about as good as Gasol lately (then beasted with Cassell). Not a three star team with Kaman and Cassell, but they could have won about 53 and attracted more talent.


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

The Second Fiddle. Wade's sidekick.


----------



## Wade County

Best sidekick in the league


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

Yeah, like Pippen.


----------



## Blue

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> Have some people forgotten the hissy fits Kobe threw about getting better teammates? He wanted to win, same as LeBron.
> 
> It wasn't going to be possible for Wade and Bosh to both come to Cleveland, so they went to Miami instead. Big deal. It would have been better for him to do it quietly, but overall I don't understand all the criticism.


Kobe wanted Jason Kidd, and he was mad that management passed on the deal to keep Bynum. He was growing impatient of the rebuilding, so he wanted to be traded but that's largely because he was basically the only top 50 player on his team at that point and no one else aside from Odom was even close... I dont think it's the same thing. (P.S. maybe Odom was top 50, but he would be towards the back end anyway so it's moot)



Sir Patchwork said:


> Absolutely right. Lakers fans should know this better than anyone, but when you're the best, people will find reasons to hate you no matter what you do. LeBron James is the best.
> 
> 1. If he stayed in Cleveland, they'd keep hating him for not winning titles.
> 2. If he goes to the team with the best chance of winning titles (Miami), they'll hate him for joining a stacked team.
> 3. If he went to Chicago, they would hate him for trying to imitate Jordan.
> 4. if he went to New York, they would hate him for being an attention whore in a city that would keep him in the spotlight and further his celebrity status.
> 
> It's just like Kobe in 2006. People will find any reason to hate him, but the real reason is because he is a legend...and he is arrogant to boot. I guess that arrogance clouds people's ability to judge players objectively.


1. Firt off, if he stayed in Cleveland he's an idiot because Cleveland sucks in alot of ways. Many people would understand why he left. 

2. I think they hate him because he took the path with the least amount of challenge. People would've loved to see the playoffs battles between Amare/Bron(or Rose/Bron/Boozer) vs Wade/Bosh vs Meer/Shard/Dwight vs Allen/Pierce/KG... But instead of having 3 or 4 really competitive teams in the east that would be on essentially the same tier, we instead have 1 super-team that probably easily wins the 1st couple rounds of the playoffs every year(if not easily wins every round), and **** becomes a snoozefest. Yeah it's a great team, but it's gonna get redundant watch the two best players beat down hopeless opponents all the time. Sure it's fun for them to win, but after a while doesn't your competitive nature kick in?

3. He would have his pack of haters, but I dont really see it that way. Kobe is in LA, yet he still gets dissed for trying to imitate Jordan. His rep will be fine. That's something fans will say, but it's not anything big enough that will tarnish your rep in the bigger picture. Not if your winning rings, it wont. LeBron going to Chicago and winning multiple rings as THE guy would've certainly enhanced the prestige of the franchise, and just like Kobe, Magic, Shaq, West, Kareem are always mention w/ LA... Or Bird, Russell with Boston... LeBron being in the same breath with Jordan would be good for his legacy(imo), not bad. I guess these guys are trying to do their own thing in Miami, but the LeBron-Wade thing just seems a little counter competitive. Sure you want to win, but winning like this? lol

4. Newsflash, dude was already viewed him as an attention whore while in Cleveland... They already view hedim as an attention whore bacause of HOW he approached this announcement... I dont think this is a large enough reason to not go somewhere... Maybe he actually IS an attention whore? Whether you think he is or not, I dont see what that has to do with his decision in terms of Basketball. At least as an athlete, his competitive nature wouldn't be questioned.


----------



## Ron

It just gets better and better. LOL, you know Cuban was going to chip in.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/38199183/ns/sports-nba/


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

Blue Magic said:


> At least as an athlete, his competitive nature wouldn't be questioned.


Except by the people who are doing the questioning. He has the ability to be Batman, but he doesn't want to be Batman. Lebron wants to be Robin.


----------



## Dre

So LeBron is gonna be the first sidekick better than the main man huh....


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

Dre™ said:


> So LeBron is gonna be the first sidekick better than the main man huh....


That's the whole point. Leading man ability, sidekick mentality.


----------



## Tragedy

Ron said:


> It just gets better and better. LOL, you know Cuban was going to chip in.
> 
> http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/38199183/ns/sports-nba/


I guess in regards to Wade having Lebron and Bosh's ear. But whatever.


----------



## Tragedy

Dre™ said:


> So LeBron is gonna be the first sidekick better than the main man huh....


I've always looked at the team like this. Wade is the man on that team, Bosh is the big man they need, Lebron is the man who makes it work.

I am looking forward to seeing how this goes.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Chan said:


> That's the whole point. Leading man ability, sidekick mentality.


Yeah, that Magic, what a loser...


----------



## Jakain

Tragedy said:


> I guess in regards to Wade having Lebron and Bosh's ear. But whatever.


Cuban's probably looking for some kind of revenge after losing to the Heat back in 2006 and for getting fined for tampering a few weeks ago


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

E.H. Munro said:


> Yeah, that Magic, what a loser...


Remember when Magic couldn't win the title for 7 years so he left the Lakers at age 25 to sign to another superstar's team? 

Wait.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Chan said:


> Remember when Magic couldn't win the title for 7 years so he left the Lakers at age 25 to sign to another superstar's team?


Why did Magic spend all those years playing with a top 5 all time player? Obviously because he couldn't handle the pressure of winning a title on his own. Loser. If he really had a "batman mentality" he would defected for the Dallas Mavericks so that he could lead a team of scrubs to the promised land...


----------



## 77AJ

Damian Necronamous said:


> The right thing was to challenge himself and not take a free ride.
> 
> If he wins in Miami, so what? You won with Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. Congratulations. You admitted that you couldn't win a ring as the main guy (which you would've been on any team other than LA or Miami) and you joined Wade's squad. Way to go.
> 
> If they win, it's because they're a better team. There's no denying that. You can't hate them for winning. But we can have feelings of disdain because he mailed in his legacy. He didn't challenge himself and he basically just jumped on the bandwagon. True greats don't jump on the bandwagon. They see the bandwagon and say, "Screw you guys. I'll beat you."
> 
> Don't tell me he doesn't care about his legacy. We all know that's not true.
> 
> He will never experience the true triumph that comes from overcoming true adversity and real obstacles. He just bailed and joined a sure-thing. That's not admirable at all.
> 
> Before you respond: "But he wants to win!! All he did was give himself the best chance to win!!"....think about what that means. Is what we try to teach people that winning is the only thing that matters? No. It's how you win that matters. True champions don't make the sort of decision that LeBron made.
> 
> Maybe it's the media's fault for building him up into something he's not - hell, it's definitely partly the media's fault. It's all of our fault. But it's also LeBron's fault for demanding so much attention, calling himself "The King" and feeding all the hype. Don't expect people to view you as "The King" when you leave your throne to jump on a bandwagon.
> 
> I am still shocked by his decision. He basically took a shotgun and blasted his legacy in the face.


1.) LeBron James poured 7 years into a horrible franchise. And the management and ownership failed. He moved on. Who wouldn't if you could get a better gig else where.

2.) If he wins in Miami so what ? Does that mean we detract all 5 of Kobes titles away from him because he played with the best player in the league at the time in Shaq, plus guys like Harper, Rice, Horry, Fox and Richmond. were on those Lakers teams, just to name a few. And Kobe won his last two titles with Pau Gasol, Ariza, Odom, Bynum, Fisher and Artest ? Damn Kobe, if we replaced all those guys with a broken down Shaq, Mo Williams, and Antwan Jamison as your best players you probably don't have one title to your name, let alone more than a few playoff wins. And no way in hell does Phil Jackson come to coach in LA. 

But yeah, we get it, you think Bron should of just stayed and played.

3.) Lebrons legacy will be just fine, considering he's in the top 3 players in the game between Bron, Kobe, and Howard. He's a two time MVP winner (Gasp! Something Kobe hasn't done). He's put up historical statistics and done it efficiently, and consistently been a great team player. Something that took Kobe years and years to develop. Especially the team aspect. So we can talk legacy all you want. However if Bron ends up with 6 or more titles. He will be closer to the GOAT discussion than Bryant or anyone else from this generation will. Book it.


----------



## Blue

E.H. Munro said:


> Why did Magic spend all those years playing with a top 5 all time player? Obviously because he couldn't handle the pressure of winning a title on his own. Loser. If he really had a "batman mentality" he would defected for the Dallas Mavericks so that he could lead a team of scrubs to the promised land...


Would Magic ever team up with Bird? Doubt it.


----------



## Basel

:laugh:

Some posts in this thread are ****ing ridiculous.


----------



## Ron

Basel said:


> :laugh:
> 
> Some posts in this thread are ****ing ridiculous.


Yes, but they sure are entertaining...that's all that matters to me, on topic or off.


----------



## Ron

E.H. Munro said:


> Why did Magic spend all those years playing with a top 5 all time player? Obviously because he couldn't handle the pressure of winning a title on his own. Loser. If he really had a "batman mentality" he would defected for the Dallas Mavericks so that he could lead a team of scrubs to the promised land...


Hmmmmm...I am not sure most are taking your posts for sarcasm.

But keep it up, this thread is a hoot.


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

E.H. Munro said:


> Why did Magic spend all those years playing with a top 5 all time player? Obviously because he couldn't handle the pressure of winning a title on his own. Loser. If he really had a "batman mentality" he would defected for the Dallas Mavericks so that he could lead a team of scrubs to the promised land...


Magic was drafted there. Lebron will always be the hometown savior that left to be Robin.


----------



## Gx

Jesse Jackson slams Cavaliers' owner Dan Gilbert for treating LeBron James like a 'runaway slave'

It just keeps getting better


----------



## Basel

Jesse Jackson is a stupid ****.


----------



## Shaoxia

Gx said:


> Jesse Jackson slams Cavaliers' owner Dan Gilbert for treating LeBron James like a 'runaway slave'
> 
> It just keeps getting better


It's funny he said that, because I had the exact same thoughts when I read Gilbert's statement. This does not necessarily mean that Gilbert is a racist, but he (and most other owners) seem to see themselves as owners of basketball players as if they'd own slaves. They can trade players whenever they feel like it, but when a player has the freedom to leave an organization he is supposed to show loyalty to someone who would drop him the minute he'd have a career-ending injury? It's business.
Every time you see a loyal player traded you can hear them say in interviews: "I have to live with it. This is the business." You know they feel bad though when that happens to them. If players can be mature enough to handle a trade, owners have to be mature enough to accept when a player wants to leave.


----------



## thaKEAF

Basel said:


> Jesse Jackson is a stupid ****.


----------



## rocketeer

Chan said:


> Magic was drafted there. Lebron will always be the hometown savior that left to be Robin.


i can't wait for the season to start so the delusions of lebron being "robin" will disappear.


----------



## Jamel Irief

rocketeer said:


> i can't wait for the season to start so the delusions of lebron being "robin" will disappear.


What about all the many people who still feel Boston is Pierce's team? All the shots of the 08 championship show Paulie Wheelchair clutching the trophy, finals MVP trophy, tears falling down his ugly patchy beard during the ring ceremony...

I think the Heat and Wade will always have that relationship.


----------



## rocketeer

Jamel Irief said:


> What about all the many people who still feel Boston is Pierce's team? All the shots of the 08 championship show Paulie Wheelchair clutching the trophy, finals MVP trophy, tears falling down his ugly patchy beard during the ring ceremony...
> 
> I think the Heat and Wade will always have that relationship.


if lebron breaks down like kg did, people can say it's wade's team.


----------



## Theonee

23AJ said:


> 1.) LeBron James poured 7 years into a horrible franchise. And the management and ownership failed. He moved on. Who wouldn't if you could get a better gig else where.
> 
> 2.) If he wins in Miami so what ? Does that mean we detract all 5 of Kobes titles away from him because he played with the best player in the league at the time in Shaq, plus guys like Harper, Rice, Horry, Fox and Richmond. were on those Lakers teams, just to name a few. And Kobe won his last two titles with Pau Gasol, Ariza, Odom, Bynum, Fisher and Artest ? Damn Kobe, if we replaced all those guys with a broken down Shaq, Mo Williams, and Antwan Jamison as your best players you probably don't have one title to your name, let alone more than a few playoff wins. And no way in hell does Phil Jackson come to coach in LA.
> 
> But yeah, we get it, you think Bron should of just stayed and played.
> 
> 3.) Lebrons legacy will be just fine, considering he's in the top 3 players in the game between Bron, Kobe, and Howard. He's a two time MVP winner (Gasp! Something Kobe hasn't done). He's put up historical statistics and done it efficiently, and consistently been a great team player. Something that took Kobe years and years to develop. Especially the team aspect. So we can talk legacy all you want. However if Bron ends up with 6 or more titles. He will be closer to the GOAT discussion than Bryant or anyone else from this generation will. Book it.


The guy tho trashed Lebron James, every point of the way and defended Kobe every time is reversing his opinions all of a sudden.
lets be honest here, the only reason you are happy is because now, there is no way Lebron can be better than Jordan with his new role. You always feel threatened with guys who has chance to suprass Jordan
You use to act like Kobe fan, when some posters thought Lebron is catching up to Jordan, as soon as people campare Kobe to Jordan, all of a sudden you will trash Kobe.
Now you have every reason to be Lebron fan, because you know he will never be considered as good as Jordan.
Otherwise will you admit that Lebron is better than Jordan. Will you admit that Lebron is better than Jordan if Lebron wins 6 rings with Wade and Bosh? 




As for Jesse Jackson, he is the biggest piece of **** in the world. He is the most racist person, if Lebron is a slave, I wish I could be a slave like him. Making money that 99% of the world cannot even dream of seeing, getting idolised by millions.


----------



## Theonee

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----------



## Game3525

rocketeer said:


> i can't wait for the season to start so the delusions of lebron being "robin" will disappear.


It will never go away, Lebron is the best player in the league. But he is now A-Rod to Wade's Jeter, he will never be considered the man on the team as long as Wade is still there.


----------



## BeeGee

Gx said:


> Jesse Jackson slams Cavaliers' owner Dan Gilbert for treating LeBron James like a 'runaway slave'
> 
> It just keeps getting better


Jesse Jackson is an opportunist and an instigator, always watching and listening for the opportunity to make a race issue out of thin air. Dan Gilbert might be a bonehead, but nothing he did perpetuates an owner-slave mentality - please get off that bullshizm. 

He called Bron disloyal for obvious reasons. He called Bron a narcissist because the dude's humongous ego had him on ESPN sitting across from Jim Gray announcing his decision to sign with Miami. While it's kinda laughable for Dan Gilbert to say anything to belittle Lebron, I agree with much of what he said. Lebron did go out like a complete coward and the whole ESPN thing stunk to high-heaven of narcissism. 

Jesse Jackson is a joke and has been for a couple of decades now. Why couldn't the CIA have taken him out and left Dr. King here?


----------



## Blue

BeeGee said:


> Jesse Jackson is an opportunist and an instigator, always watching and listening for the opportunity to make a race issue out of thin air. Dan Gilbert might be a bonehead, but nothing he did perpetuates an owner-slave mentality - please get off that bullshizm.
> 
> He called Bron disloyal for obvious reasons. He called Bron a narcissist because the dude's humongous ego had him on ESPN sitting across from Jim Gray announcing his decision to sign with Miami. While it's kinda laughable for Dan Gilbert to say anything to belittle Lebron, I agree with much of what he said. Lebron did go out like a complete coward and the whole ESPN thing stunk to high-heaven of narcissism.
> 
> Jesse Jackson is a joke and has been for a couple of decades now. Why couldn't the CIA have taken him out and left Dr. King here?


So your saying Owners can just cut a player on a whim, and it's business as usual? They can trade you @ the drop of a hat, But lord forbid if a player leaves in FA... He's a traitor! Lol, gtfo with out that garbage, Dan Gilbert is a hypocrite. 

Sure Jesse Jackson is an extremist, but to say you agree w/ Gilbert isnt any better. LeBron did nothing wrong to him personally to deserve that reaction, Gilbert is just mad that his investment went to **** and desperately trying to rally fans.


----------



## Jakain

Gilbert does deserve some official consequence from the league for his laughably stupid outburst but on the other hand, his franchise and fanbase are forever destroyed in this era of the NBA anyway...no one's going to want to play for Cleveland unless they significantly overpay players. 

As for who will be Batman and Robin....we all know who won the All-Star game MVP this past year and how seemingly unsportsmanlike the other guy looked....then again, we know who has the back to back MVPs as well so it'll be interesting.


----------



## f22egl

Gilbert is not racist IMO. If LeBron was some white dude, Gilbert would have said the exact same thing.


----------



## Nightmute

Dre™ said:


> I do agree with the other side when they say it's going to effect his production, which should be considered a significant part of the resume.


That's the only point that deserves a response from anyone interested in defending LeBron's decision. The other argument people are making is ****ing stupid and it doesn't take much of your higher brain function to realize that.

LeBron's production is going to change, and it will effect his potential legacy as the GOAT.


----------



## Luke

The only thing that this signing takes away from LeBron is that he won't have as dominant individual numbers as we've become used too. Magic, Bird, Russell, Kobe, or any other legend needed a fantastic supporting cast to win multiple times. LeBron's may look a lot sweeter on paper then say, Kobe's, but top to bottom it still has room for improvment. People saying that this takes him out of the GOAT race are dumb.


----------



## Nightmute

VanillaPrice said:


> The only thing that this signing takes away from LeBron is that he won't have as dominant individual numbers as we've become used too. Magic, Bird, Russell, Kobe, or any other legend needed a fantastic supporting cast to win multiple times. LeBron's may look a lot sweeter on paper then say, Kobe's, but top to bottom it still has room for improvment. People saying that this takes him out of the GOAT race are dumb.


It's a balance between individual dominance and championships, winning. Your dumb if you think statistical production and individual accolades doesn't factor into his resume as the GOAT. He may be the same player in different surroundings, but of what use is that if your performance doesn't match your talent level. I could be the best car salesman in the world, but if I don't sell the most cars should I still retain that title?


----------



## BeeGee

Blue Magic said:


> So your saying Owners can just cut a player on a whim, and it's business as usual? They can trade you @ the drop of a hat, But lord forbid if a player leaves in FA... He's a traitor! Lol, gtfo with out that garbage, Dan Gilbert is a hypocrite. Sure Jesse Jackson is an extremist, but to say you agree w/ Gilbert isnt any better. LeBron did nothing wrong to him personally to deserve that reaction, Gilbert is just mad that his investment went to **** and desperately trying to rally fans.


Whoa, slow ya roll, Sparkie. Where in the hell did you hear me say that it's ok for owners to make b^^ch-moves? And you need to read my post again. I SAID that I agreed that Lebron was being narcissistic, and disloyal. 

I SAID it's kinda laughable for Gilbert to try and label Lebron. The reason I said that is because I am fully aware that owners/GMs do the same type of dirt on players/fans. 

So back up off me, dude. Me agreeing with certain points of Gilbert's assessment of Lebron does not make me anything - You must be jokin'. I agree with Gilbert and the other billion people that feel Bron's appearance on ESPN was disloyal and ego-driven.

Of course Gilbert has his own motives for spitting his ire, but I have no interest in him or his motives - I just happen to agree with several points of his take.

You should read posts that you're gonna attempt to bomb on next time, not just skim over them.


----------



## Tragedy

I don't think Dan Gilbert would be so incensed if he didn't find out with the rest of the viewing public.


----------



## Jakain

Jason Whitlock's article thats pretty spot-on of the Aftermath imo:



> Jackson way off base on LeBron
> 
> 
> I could pretend Jesse Jackson speaks for such a tiny minority that his inflammatory, predictable and misguided remarks about LeBron James and Dan Gilbert are unworthy of rebuke.
> 
> 
> But then, I’d have to ignore the mountain of e-mails that poured into my laptop from African-American brothers and sisters making the same argument.
> 
> Jesse has a constituency, a passionate group of idiots who believe the best way to combat white-wing political bigots such as Limbaugh and Hannity is with black-wing political bigotry.
> 
> And so, in defense of LeBron’s narcissistic ego explosion and Gilbert’s emotional reaction to it, Jesse compared Gilbert to an 18th-century slave owner.
> 
> “His feelings of betrayal personify a slave master mentality,” Jackson said in a statement released Sunday. “(Gilbert) sees LeBron as a runaway slave.”
> 
> Yes, this is an attention grab by Rev. Jackson. He heard about ESPN’s impressive ratings for “The Decision” and, like a mafia don, wants to wet his beak. Why let Jim Gray and ESPN executives have all the fun exploiting LeBron’s naivete?
> 
> There’s enough of LeBron’s carcass for Jesse to feast, too. And Gilbert’s childish letter to Cavaliers fans in the wake of LeBron’s departure gave Jackson the opening he needed to break out his knives and forks.
> 
> 
> “(Gilbert’s) accusations endanger LeBron,” Jackson wrote. “His jersey is being burned in effigy, and he is being projected as a betrayer by the owner. ... LeBron is not a child, nor is he bound to play on Gilbert’s plantation and be demeaned.”
> 
> Yep, it’s the card. LeBron James and his kiddie handlers screwed up, staging an image-damaging public-relations disaster, and now some African-Americans want to change the subject by changing the argument.
> 
> NBA owners and their $100-million contracts are slave owners and King James is Kunta Kinte escaping on the Underground Railroad to Miami’s Tootsie’s Cabaret, where he’ll make it rain.
> 
> It’s stupid. Dan Gilbert’s rant was certainly immature, but it wasn’t remotely racist. He sounded like a scorned lover, a guy who gave his heart to a relationship and found out on national TV that the alleged love of his life didn’t care about him at all.
> 
> Gilbert vented. I give James credit for not responding.
> 
> Jackson and other African-Americans need to follow LeBron’s lead. We look foolish. We look hypocritical. We come across like people who have little genuine interest in seeing racial prejudice disappear and more like people who just want it to swing in our favor.
> 
> 
> Rather than deal with the callous and classless way James departed his home state, some of us are trying to make this about race. It’s not.
> 
> No rational person begrudges James for joining Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, Pat Riley and the Miami Heat. Sports fans — and owners — have grown used to star players switching teams.
> 
> People were stunned and turned off by the hey-look-at-me circus James conducted on his way out of Cleveland. It was unnecessary and easy to avoid. It was cruel to all the young and old fans who supported him.
> 
> Beyond that, it was bad business. James damaged his brand. He made himself polarizing for no good reason. A man of his wealth would pay $2.5 million to avoid the kind of bad publicity that has engulfed James in the aftermath of "The Decision."
> 
> You can argue James has the right to destroy his image. Man has the right to smoke cigarettes, too. It’s still stupid. And nonsmokers have the right to point out the stupidity of smoking.
> 
> You can’t defend LeBron’s lapse in judgment by claiming his critics are racist. You’re crippling James, baiting him to make more mistakes.
> 
> There was nothing honorable or smart about the way he orchestrated his exit.
> 
> From all reports, James knew months ago he was going to Miami with Wade and Bosh. His interviews were a farce. He invited white billionaires to grovel at his feet. And Jesse Jackson wants to call Gilbert a slave owner. Please.
> 
> Gilbert gave James and his entourage the keys to the franchise for seven years and tolerated all the indulgences of youth. He foolishly expected James and his posse to treat the Cavaliers with a modicum of respect.
> 
> It’s why you don’t spoil kids. They’ll take advantage and not express an ounce of appreciation.
> 
> Everyone who objectively watched the Boston-Cleveland playoffs series knows James quit on the Cavs, selling out his teammates and costing head coach Mike Brown his job.
> 
> Despite Brown’s African-American heritage, Jesse Jackson doesn’t care about Mike Brown. Jesse’s all good with LeBron’s betrayal of a black head coach because Mike Brown’s name doesn’t draw record TV ratings.
> 
> We’re a nation of jock-sniffers and hypocrites. It’s not surprising so many of us fall for the crap spewed by Jesse, Rush, Al, Hannity and all the rest.
> 
> 
> http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/Jesse-Jackson-LeBron-James-Dan-Gilbert-slavery-comparison-071210


----------



## kflo

VanillaPrice said:


> The only thing that this signing takes away from LeBron is that he won't have as dominant individual numbers as we've become used too. Magic, Bird, Russell, Kobe, or any other legend needed a fantastic supporting cast to win multiple times. LeBron's may look a lot sweeter on paper then say, Kobe's, but top to bottom it still has room for improvment. People saying that this takes him out of the GOAT race are dumb.


the problem lebron is going to have longer term is the notion he took the easiest route. if success comes too easy for the heat, lebron took the easy path. if it takes time to win, lebron couldn't win with wade and bosh. 

i'm sure his play will be amazing, and that will ease him back into good stead. but history might be tricky with this one. we'll see how they fill out the roster, and how injuries may affect what happens next. 

i mean, shaq and kobe as a duo won 3 straight with role players all around. fair or not, that's a future reference point.


----------



## jericho

Thanks for posting that, Jakain. That's a brilliant piece by Whitlock, imo.


----------



## Dre

Proves anyone co-signing that immature **** isn't justified...


----------



## yodurk

I honestly find Jesse Jackson's remarks to be insulting. Comparing Lebron James -- a guy who earned what, $15 million bucks last year from the Cavs organization -- to a slave? 

Now if he was saying this about the NCAA, he may have a point...


----------



## f22egl

Dan Gilbert taking the high road...


> “I strongly disagree with Rev. Jesse Jackson’s recent comments and we are not going to engage in any related discussion on it,” Gilbert said. “Going forward, we’re very excited about the Cavaliers and the positive future of our region.”


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=ArzMUdQgmDe2j5bJRD9WYVM5nYcB?slug=ap-gilbert-jessejackson


----------



## HKF

I really don't want to agree with Whitlock. Damn, it's nothing but losers in this scenario.


----------



## Diable

I really wish I could be enslaved just like Lebron is...Hell put me down for second helpings on that.


----------



## The_Legend_23

Lebron + Wade + Bosh + good role players = Multiple Championships!

Lebron made a great decision, going for less money to play with 2 other Top 10 players that are under 30! They're going to win a lot of trophies!

As for the saying that his legacy is tainted, I find it laughable. Everyone in the league that ever won had 1-2 sidekicks/partners that carried the team at times, made some big shots, and filled the stat sheet, played D, and contributed to the Championship. ITs a team game, and you can't win it all on your own. Russell had Cousy/Sam Jones/KC Jones/Havelik, Magic had Kareem/Big Game James Worthy, Bird had Parish and McHale, Jordan had Pippen and Grant/Rodman. Even Kobe had Shaq/Fisher/Horry and Gasol/Artest/Fisher to help him win trophies. 


Go Miami!


----------



## Basel

All we're missing in this thread is DNKO.


----------



## Luke

Nightmute said:


> It's a balance between individual dominance and championships, winning. Your dumb if you think statistical production and individual accolades doesn't factor into his resume as the GOAT. He may be the same player in different surroundings, but of what use is that if your performance doesn't match your talent level. I could be the best car salesman in the world, but if I don't sell the most cars should I still retain that title?


That was my point. He won't have ridiculous numers any more, but they'll still be up there historically. Only difference now is that he'll be winning a lot more and has a chance at multiple championships. It was a good move for LeBron to go to Miami.


----------



## Blue

The_Legend_23 said:


> Lebron + Wade + Bosh + good role players = Multiple Championships!
> 
> Lebron made a great decision, going for less money to play with 2 other Top 10 players that are under 30! They're going to win a lot of trophies!


6 + 3 + 1 = 10 Championships!



> As for the saying that his legacy is tainted, I find it laughable. Everyone in the league that ever won had 1-2 sidekicks/partners that carried the team at times, made some big shots, and filled the stat sheet, played D, and contributed to the Championship. ITs a team game, and you can't win it all on your own. Russell had Cousy/Sam Jones/KC Jones/Havelik, Magic had Kareem/Big Game James Worthy, Bird had Parish and McHale, Jordan had Pippen and Grant/Rodman. Even Kobe had Shaq/Fisher/Horry and Gasol/Artest/Fisher to help him win trophies.
> 
> 
> Go Miami!


Hakeem won in '93 without any other allstars. But regardless, noone said you dont typically need help. It's just we've never seen the top 2 wing players team up before.


----------



## BeeGee

Dre™;6323341 said:


> Proves anyone co-signing that immature **** isn't justified...


No, it just proves that twitter is the offspring lovechild of a group of severely edited people.


----------



## PauloCatarino

kflo said:


> *the problem lebron is going to have longer term is the notion he took the easiest route. if success comes too easy for the heat, lebron took the easy path. if it takes time to win, lebron couldn't win with wade and bosh.*
> 
> i'm sure his play will be amazing, and that will ease him back into good stead. but history might be tricky with this one. we'll see how they fill out the roster, and how injuries may affect what happens next.
> 
> i mean, shaq and kobe as a duo won 3 straight with role players all around. fair or not, that's a future reference point.


Yup. 

EVEN if The Betrayal works very well and Lebron ends up winning 3-to-5 championships with the Heat, people will always point Lebron's not being able to do it "on his own" against it.
And no, Lebron James ain't averaging 30-8-7 playing with Wade and Bosh.

Lebron left the best regular season team in the NBA because they couldn't win in the playoffs. Back-to-Back, they had homecourt advantage thorough the playoffs and not once did they made the Finals. And not once they were defeated by the eventual champions.

So, yeah, Lebron will have a major hard time to get into the GOAT discussion again...

Oh, by the way, i was just thinking: what the hell was Wade thinking, participating in this? This was HIS team. He didn't need no Lebron (eventhough he needed a Chris Bosh or two)! If the Heat succeed and Lebron is the franchise player for the team, what does that make Wade? How will he be looked upon after his playing days are over?


----------



## kflo

PauloCatarino said:


> Yup.
> 
> EVEN if The Betrayal works very well and Lebron ends up winning 3-to-5 championships with the Heat, people will always point Lebron's not being able to do it "on his own" against it.
> And no, Lebron James ain't averaging 30-8-7 playing with Wade and Bosh.
> 
> Lebron left the best regular season team in the NBA because they couldn't win in the playoffs. Back-to-Back, they had homecourt advantage thorough the playoffs and not once did they made the Finals. And not once they were defeated by the eventual champions.
> 
> So, yeah, Lebron will have a major hard time to get into the GOAT discussion again...
> 
> Oh, by the way, i was just thinking: what the hell was Wade thinking, participating in this? This was HIS team. He didn't need no Lebron (eventhough he needed a Chris Bosh or two)! If the Heat succeed and Lebron is the franchise player for the team, what does that make Wade? How will he be looked upon after his playing days are over?


they were the best regular season team because they had lebron, not because he was surrounded with talent. 

wade had his team, and his team wasn't a contender. he has a chance to be a part of something more historic. 

not everyone is playing to be the goat. 

and ultimately, lebron's level of play will put him in the goat discussion. if they win.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

People are far too concerned with legacies and who is the "main man" and who wants to win but also doesn't want too great of teammates so that they win every year and it looks too easy, and all of that nonsense. I'm glad LeBron doesn't buy into all of this crap. It's much ado about nothing. 

LeBron will reach GOAT status simply for the fact that he has reached a prime level of basketball that is comparable and in some cases superior with any player in history including the current GOATs, and he has played at that level for 2 or 3 years now. All of the surrounding factors mean little to me. When I think of the greatest player of all-time, I think about who is the greatest player of all-time. Not some overdone cookie cutter criteria that strays from the basic principle of being the best basketball player.


----------



## Luke

People are still talking about LeBron's playoff series? Did he play worse then we're used to? Yes. Did he still play at an extremely high level sans game 5? Yeah. Did he have a good supporting cast? Yeah. Was it the best, or even top three in the league. No. The Cavs weren't going to win the title reguardless, so I guess it's a slight knock on LeBron for getting eliminated by a team that he should've beat (as opposed to the Lakers) but it's not some huge travesty that will forever hurt his legacy. His time will come.


----------



## futuristxen

Here's a legacy for people to stick up their bums and twist on:
Best team in the modern era.

These three have a shot at it, and if you don't think that's a helluva legacy, I don't know what to say.

Say they rattle off 6 or 7 championships, a few 70 plus win seasons, and play incredible basketball.

You don't think that's it's own kind of legacy? This could be the closest thing to the Dream team in the NBA.

The only thing standing in their way I think is a prolonged lockout changing the landscape of the game.


----------



## Game3525

Do you honestly think they are going to win 6-7 championships? This isn't NBA live, it is hard to win one championship let alone 7.


----------



## BeeGee

futuristxen said:


> Here's a legacy for people to stick up their bums and twist on:
> Best team in the modern era.
> 
> These three have a shot at it, and if you don't think that's a helluva legacy, I don't know what to say.
> 
> Say they rattle off 6 or 7 championships, a few 70 plus win seasons, and play incredible basketball.
> 
> You don't think that's it's own kind of legacy? This could be the closest thing to the Dream team in the NBA.
> 
> The only thing standing in their way I think is a prolonged lockout changing the landscape of the game.


:thinking2: How bout we wait until these guys step off paper and onto the court as a team, before we go proclaiming them as the possible first dream team of the NBA, ok? And the 6-7 year outlook is even more useless right now. I just wanna see em get through 82+ games before people start stamping them with greatness. And no team I ever dreamed up had Mario Chalmers at the point or Zydrunas Ilgauskas at center. Stop that. 

-I'll take the 2000-2001 Lakers and drop atomic bombs on these dudes...
-I'll take the Spurs with a prime Duncan, prime Bowen, and Manu/Parker and choke these dudes out...
-I'll take the Celtics big 3 with young Rondo, James Posey, and the horses Big Baby and Leon Powe off the bench, and stampede these dudes...

They have to earn it on the court before anybody with common sense gives it to em. Anything else is just babble.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

The point was that great players do great things. You don't know what his legacy will look like, positive or negative. How can you say this move has affected his legacy if he goes on to unearhtly things (like win a grip of titles while continuing individual dominance). What happens in the future will affect his legacy, not what happened this summer.


----------



## futuristxen

Sir Patchwork said:


> The point was that great players do great things. You don't know what his legacy will look like, positive or negative. How can you say this move has affected his legacy if he goes on to unearhtly things (like win a grip of titles while continuing individual dominance). What happens in the future will affect his legacy, not what happened this summer.


Exactly. It seems people are a little too eager to discuss negative ramifications to his legacy, without entertaining that there are many different ways it could go very positive as well.


----------



## Game3525

Well.....it does affect his legacy, whether it is fair or unfair people will remember this past summer.


----------



## Nightmute

futuristxen said:


> Exactly. It seems people are a little too eager to discuss negative ramifications to his legacy, without entertaining that there are many different ways it could go very positive as well.


Like I've said, he could win 20 titles in a row. I'm not going to judge him by his teams success but by his individual performance. If his performance dips, especially in comparison to his last few years, than my judgement of his possibility as a GOAT will as well.


----------



## BG7

futuristxen said:


> Here's a legacy for people to stick up their bums and twist on:
> Best team in the modern era.
> 
> These three have a shot at it, and if you don't think that's a helluva legacy, I don't know what to say.
> 
> Say they rattle off 6 or 7 championships, a few 70 plus win seasons, and play incredible basketball.
> 
> You don't think that's it's own kind of legacy? This could be the closest thing to the Dream team in the NBA.
> 
> The only thing standing in their way I think is a prolonged lockout changing the landscape of the game.


I think it will help repair Lebron's legacy if he starts winning championships. But I think if the Bulls or Magic take them down in the Eastern conference playoffs, or the Thunder or Lakers take them down in the Finals, I think guys like Howard, Rose, Kobe, and Durant will hve richer legacies for taking down the super team, than the super team will if they win 3-4 championships or so. 

Regardless, it's hard to see Lebron ever reaching MJ level legacy as long as he is a part of this super team.


----------



## myst

BG7 said:


> I think it will help repair Lebron's legacy if he starts winning championships. But I think if the Bulls or Magic take them down in the Eastern conference playoffs, or the Thunder or Lakers take them down in the Finals, I think guys like Howard, Rose, Kobe, and Durant will hve richer legacies for taking down the super team, than the super team will if they win 3-4 championships or so.
> 
> Regardless, it's hard to see Lebron ever reaching MJ level legacy as long as he is a part of this super team.


Kobe has lost two finals series'. How's his legacy looking?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Game3525 said:


> Well.....it does affect his legacy, whether it is fair or unfair people will remember this past summer.


You say that now, but I hardly hear anyone mention how Shaquille O'Neal was swept 3 years straight in Orlando before jumping on the bandwagon with the greatest franchise of all-time. 

He couldn't get it done in Orlando, and nobody ever talks about it because he came to LA and won a bunch of titles. And he also had a top 5 player on his team. 

Winning =


----------



## futuristxen

BG7 said:


> I think it will help repair Lebron's legacy if he starts winning championships. But I think if the Bulls or Magic take them down in the Eastern conference playoffs, or the Thunder or Lakers take them down in the Finals, I think guys like Howard, Rose, Kobe, and Durant will hve richer legacies for taking down the super team, than the super team will if they win 3-4 championships or so.
> 
> Regardless, it's hard to see Lebron ever reaching MJ level legacy as long as he is a part of this super team.


This is purely hypothetical, so hopefully no one skips this sentence and quotes this to flame, but what if he ended his career with this resume:

7 NBA Titles
w/ 1 of those titles with DWade a shadow of his former self, or injured
4 Finals MVPs
5 regular season MVPs
Two seasons where he averaged triple doubles
2 DPOY awards

If he had this completely unbelievable statline, playing as part of the big three--would you say that he had overtaken MJ as GOAT?

What's the threshhold he would now have to cross for people to be GOAT?


----------



## BeeGee

It absolutely affects his legacy, and you're naive if you don't see that. This guy was "The King", and was preordained as a champion nearly before he ever put on a Cavs jersey. 

Him leaving a team that won 127 games in 2 seasons (66,61) in search of an easier route to the O'Brien trophy absolutely affects his legacy, or at least his "appointed" legacy. Most serious sports fans are self-proclaimed historians - this summer won't be forgotten when it's time for Bron's final tally. 

Of course he has plenty of time to win titles and write this bad scene out of the end story. But for many people that viewed it before it was written out, him abandoning Cleveland and the way he did it, will always be a big red stain on the script. That's life.


----------



## Game3525

Sir Patchwork said:


> You say that now, but I hardly hear anyone mention how Shaquille O'Neal was swept 3 years straight in Orlando before jumping on the bandwagon with the greatest franchise of all-time.
> 
> He couldn't get it done in Orlando, and nobody ever talks about it because he came to LA and won a bunch of titles. And he also had a top 5 player on his team.
> 
> Winning =


Shaq's departure was big, but no where near as big as Lebron's was. On top of that, Lebron is the face of the NBA, Shaq wasn't. IMO, it is naive to think that winning will make everyone forget his departure, this is going to linger like bad gas.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

I think what it comes down to is the people who were looking for something to hold against him have found it, and knowing they'll probably never find anything else, they want to hold onto this forever. 

The people who look at what a player does on the court to decide how great a player is will be sticking by that creto before writing off his whole career, even if they didn't like his decision. 

I'm sure in 15 years, the arguments will be the same. Something like "LeBron was a better basketball player than Jordan on the court and accomplished more" vs. "LeBron left Cleveland, so he can't be the best"


----------



## Blue

What's that? Nah, MJ only played with one other all-star... How many all-stars does LeBron need again? Oh thats right, he's playing with 2 perennial all-star starters. Nah. My dude is not better than Jordan. Any chance he had to prove that, he pretty much just threw it out the window to join a freaking mini dream team. Of course he's gonna win multiple titles in Miami, it's a lock.


----------



## futuristxen

BeeGee said:


> It absolutely affects his legacy, and you're naive if you don't see that. This guy was "The King", and was preordained as a champion nearly before he ever put on a Cavs jersey.
> 
> Him leaving a team that won 127 games in 2 seasons (66,61) in search of an easier route to the O'Brien trophy absolutely affects his legacy, or at least his "appointed" legacy. Most serious sports fans are self-proclaimed historians - this summer won't be forgotten when it's time for Bron's final tally.


He's also only 25, and has more of his career in front of him than behind him.


----------



## jmk

futuristxen said:


> He's also only 25, and has more of his career in front of him than behind him.


Yeah, and the "career in front of him" will be spent playing second fiddle to Wade.


----------



## futuristxen

jmk said:


> Yeah, and the "career in front of him" will be spent playing second fiddle to Wade.


You actually don't know that.


----------



## Nightmute

Sir Patchwork said:


> I think what it comes down to is the people who were looking for something to hold against him have found it, and knowing they'll probably never find anything else, they want to hold onto this forever.
> 
> The people who look at what a player does on the court to decide how great a player is will be sticking by that creto before writing off his whole career, even if they didn't like his decision.
> 
> I'm sure in 15 years, the arguments will be the same. Something like "LeBron was a better basketball player than Jordan on the court and accomplished more" vs. "LeBron left Cleveland, so he can't be the best"


What do you think his production will be on this team? Do you see him still putting up a PER of 30, with stat lines to rival Jordan?


----------



## BeeGee

Sir Patchwork said:


> I'm sure in 15 years, the arguments will be the same. Something like "LeBron was a better basketball player than Jordan on the court and accomplished more" vs. "LeBron left Cleveland, so he can't be the best"


Jordan's greatness was cemented in what he did when the game and the season was on the line. All those Wheaties, McDonalds, and Nike commercials... He backed up every single legend created about himself on the court. But it was also his loyalty to that franchise, man. That's as much a part of his legend as anything. When you see that bull, the first thought is #23, every time. MJ answered the call every time, and because of it, Chicago Bulls fans have the most extensive bragging rights of any modern sports town. MJ is the ultimate trump card of our time he's thee legend.

It's one thing to play great and fill up the stat-sheet like Bron does. Hell, Oscar Robertson did it better than anyone else ever has for a season and averaged 30pts 10reb 10ast through his first 5 seasons. But true legacy expands beyond the stat sheet and sometimes even the championship podium. It's what you are and what people see you as. Bron can go on to win a few titles, but his legacy will always be tainted by the fact that he abandoned his hometown team, and in a time when they were the NBA's winningest team no less. That stain will never be hard to see and because of it, he'll never be anything close to the trump card that Michael Jordan is. He's been shoved down our throats since ESPN was showing every one of his senior HS games on national TV and even in prime time slots. With that and the million and one commercial ads, they've basically paved the way for this guy to be on a plateau with MJ... They're just waiting for him to put a stamp on it.

Even most MJ-haters really can't put up a good argument to refute the notion that he's the best that ever played. Any chance that Lebron could possibly leave a legacy that sniffs MJ's is still sitting on that chair in Connecticut, and in trash bins full of ash from burned #23 Cavs jersies. He sold out more than just Cavs fans.


----------



## Duck

BeeGee said:


> Jordan's greatness was cemented in what he did when the game and the season was on the line. All those Wheaties, McDonalds, and Nike commercials... He backed up every single legend created about himself on the court. But it was also his loyalty to that franchise, man. That's as much a part of his legend as anything. When you see that bull, the first thought is #23, every time. MJ answered the call every time, and because of it, Chicago Bulls fans have the most extensive bragging rights of any modern sports town. MJ is the ultimate trump card of our time he's thee legend.
> 
> It's one thing to play great and fill up the stat-sheet like Bron does. Hell, Oscar Robertson did it better than anyone else ever has for a season and averaged 30pts 10reb 10ast through his first 5 seasons. But true legacy expands beyond the stat sheet and sometimes even the championship podium. It's what you are and what people see you as. Bron can go on to win a few titles, but his legacy will always be tainted by the fact that he abandoned his hometown team, and in a time when they were the NBA's winningest team no less. That stain will never be hard to see and because of it, he'll never be anything close to the trump card that Michael Jordan is. He's been shoved down our throats since ESPN was showing every one of his senior HS games on national TV and even in prime time slots. With that and the million and one commercial ads, they've basically paved the way for this guy to be on a plateau with MJ... They're just waiting for him to put a stamp on it.
> 
> Even most MJ-haters really can't put up a good argument to refute the notion that he's the best that ever played. Any chance that Lebron could possibly leave a legacy that sniffs MJ's is still sitting on that chair in Connecticut, and in trash bins full of ash from burned #23 Cavs jersies. He sold out more than just Cavs fans.


Possibly the best post I've ever read on this website.


----------



## myst

BeeGee said:


> Jordan's greatness was cemented in what he did when the game and the season was on the line. All those Wheaties, McDonalds, and Nike commercials... He backed up every single legend created about himself on the court. But it was also his loyalty to that franchise, man. That's as much a part of his legend as anything. When you see that bull, the first thought is #23, every time. MJ answered the call every time, and because of it, Chicago Bulls fans have the most extensive bragging rights of any modern sports town. MJ is the ultimate trump card of our time he's thee legend.
> 
> It's one thing to play great and fill up the stat-sheet like Bron does. Hell, Oscar Robertson did it better than anyone else ever has for a season and averaged 30pts 10reb 10ast through his first 5 seasons. But true legacy expands beyond the stat sheet and sometimes even the championship podium. It's what you are and what people see you as. Bron can go on to win a few titles, but his legacy will always be tainted by the fact that he abandoned his hometown team, and in a time when they were the NBA's winningest team no less. That stain will never be hard to see and because of it, he'll never be anything close to the trump card that Michael Jordan is. He's been shoved down our throats since ESPN was showing every one of his senior HS games on national TV and even in prime time slots. With that and the million and one commercial ads, they've basically paved the way for this guy to be on a plateau with MJ... They're just waiting for him to put a stamp on it.
> 
> Even most MJ-haters really can't put up a good argument to refute the notion that he's the best that ever played. Any chance that Lebron could possibly leave a legacy that sniffs MJ's is still sitting on that chair in Connecticut, and in trash bins full of ash from burned #23 Cavs jersies. He sold out more than just Cavs fans.


Are we just ignoring the baseball years?


----------



## BeeGee

myst said:


> Are we just ignoring the baseball years?


:laugh:


----------



## BeeGee

Duck34234 said:


> Possibly the best post I've ever read on this website.


I appreciate that, bruh.


----------



## BlackNRed

jmk said:


> Yeah, and the "career in front of him" will be spent playing second fiddle to Wade.












You don't win championships by being the ONE man. Jordan always had help, Kobe always had help.

Just cause they happen to be the two best players in the league is... well fantastic.


----------



## 76ersFan11

Jordan also developed HIS game. 7 years and counting till LeBron develops a mid-range J. There's no two-timing around it. LeBron was an over-egotistical maniac who abandoned his home town in favor of more egotism. 

He is NOT nor will he ever be, no matter how many rings he wins, close to Michael. 

The greatness of Michael is that he overcame, he wanted to overcome. He didn't want to play with Bird, he wanted to beat Bird, he didn't wanna play with Magic, he wanted to beat Magic.

And guess what, those feelings were mutual. Those were the good ole days .

LeBron James said "I don't wanna overcome, I just want the damn trophy". And to be honest, that's what our society is. I don't wanna pain, I wanna gain. 

Props to Durant for sticking with his team and looks like he can create a potential dynasty with one of the best GM's in sports in Sam Presti.


----------



## BlackNRed

Obviously Lebron made it known he's not "as" egotistical as everyone thought when he decided to go play with Dwyane.

That move says "My legacy is being a winner." It was the wise move to make for his "legacy." But, haters gonna hate.

Heat World Order baby.


----------



## Duck

Heated said:


> Obviously Lebron made it known he's not "as" egotistical as everyone thought when he decided to go play with Dwyane.
> 
> That move says "My legacy is being a winner." It was the wise move to make for his "legacy." But, haters gonna hate.
> 
> Heat World Order baby.


Originally, I was going to highlight the things I wanted to point out as stupid in bold. I then realized I'd have to highlight this entire thing.


----------



## PauloCatarino

kflo said:


> they were the best regular season team because they had lebron, not because he was surrounded with talent.


Sorry. I forgot Lebron was playing 1-against-5 for 82 games. 



> wade had his team, and his team wasn't a contender. he has a chance to be a part of something more historic.


Wait, Wade is great BUT his teammates suck? Then why didn't the Heat ger the best record in the League (like the Cavs' ?)



> not everyone is playing to be the goat.


Obviously.



> and ultimately, lebron's level of play will put him in the goat discussion. if they win.


The only reason people put Lebron in the GOAT discussion is because of his stats.
Well, his stats will drop plenty playing with Wade and Bosh.


----------



## Babir

I can't understand people who are saying that Lebron had to play 1 vs 5 every night  Last season he had Shaq, Jamison, Varejao, M.Williams, Parker, Hickson, West, not such a bad team. Jordan was winning with Longley, Buechler, Randy Brown, Kukoc...yes he had Rodman and Pippen, but the last time they won championship Pippen was struggling with the ailing back and other injuries...
Lebron will win his rings in Miami, but he is not King anymore, he never was actually, but he had slight chances...now he does not! To be the best you have to beat the best not join them. What I loved about Michael Jordan, was his determination to punish other stars. Whenever he heard that someone was comparing him to someone, he was destroying that person. He left without rings so many players! Reggie Miller, Barkley, Ewing, Stockton and Malone, Kemp and etc. If Jordan had Lebron's coward heart he would have joined Isaih Thomas with Dumars after Pistons were punishing Bulls for years...but he did not, he won his title at 27! Lebron is 25 and he already gave up, he was too scared to fail again...


----------



## BlackNRed

Duck34234 said:


> Originally, I was going to highlight the things I wanted to point out as stupid in bold. I then realized I'd have to highlight this entire thing.


Well then this post was a waste of time since you had nothing to add wasn't it? Go ahead, point it out.

DUck huh? To the hWo's Geese I guess.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

BeeGee said:


> But it was also his loyalty to that franchise, man. That's as much a part of his legend as anything.


So loyalty is what it comes down to. This is what I'm talking about. You can concern yourself with all of that loyalty and moral victory crap. That kind of stuff doesn't mean a damn thing to me when looking at the greatest player of all-time. Loyalty is what ordinary people are much better at than professional basketball players. Basketball is what professional basketball players are much better at than ordinary people. Praising Jordan for loyalty considering his basketball abilities is like praising Kobe for going home after his 81 point game and doing his own laundry. Who ****ing cares? 

If Jordan was going into the 1992 season and Scottie Pippen never came along, he'd still be getting booted out in the 1st round. At that point, he'd be a loyal loser who put up great numbers while real winners like Magic, Bird, Isiah and company won all the rings. Or he would have jetted Chicago the same way LeBron jetted Cleveland. Jordan was *lucky* that he never had to make a decision like LeBron did. It was a catch-22 for LeBron because his critics demand him to win in order to justify his greatness, but also demand him to be loyal to one of the worst franchises in the league? 

It was either the Shaquille O'Neal route or the Kevin Garnett route. History proves which route is better for your legacy, because people will forget all about this once the dominance begins.


----------



## Duck

Heated said:


> Well then this post was a waste of time since you had nothing to add wasn't it? Go ahead, point it out.
> 
> DUck huh? To the hWo's Geese I guess.


Try english next time.

Win a few games before proclaiming your team as the "new world order." 

The Lakers, Magic, and maybe even the Celtics have more aggregated talent on their teams than the heat do.


----------



## BeeGee

Heated said:


> That move says "My legacy is being a winner." It was the wise move to make for his "legacy." But, haters gonna hate.


No actually the move said "I can't handle this pressure anymore." But whatever. Lebron is still cool with me, but the people saying he did this for his legacy are way off the mark. 

Let's be very clear here. He just sold the legacy he built in Cleveland for what he obviously sees as a microwave championship. 

He just abandoned the winningest franchise in the league (the last two seasons) because he obviously doesn't want the pressure of winning a title in Cleveland anymore. The notion that the Cavs didn't have a team capable of winning a title is a joke. Plenty of teams that have had a roster capable of winning a title have failed. 

The Cavs were built just fine, but from the coaching staff to the role players to the superstar, they just didn't get it done. But don't tell me a team that can put together a 60-win season isn't capable of getting to the finals and winning a championship. They got there in 07 with a front eight of Ilgauskas, Gooden, James, Pavlovic, Hughes, Varejao, Snow, and Gibson. 

It's a copout, and James obviously got frustrated that he couldn't win the championship that he was preordained to have before he traded in his St. Vincent jersey. He showed his frustration last year when he walked off the court without acknowledging or congratulating the magic. This year, the Cavs danced, frolicked, and balled out to another 60-win season. When they were close to clinching the East, dude hopped on NBATV and said he wouldn't stop until he achieved his goal to bring Cleveland a championship. 

So it's obvious to me that he didn't have any mid-season plans to play in Miami. But that beatdown the Celtics laid on Cleveland took what fight Bron had left in him to bring a title to Cleveland, and not even 3 months after vowing he wouldn't quit, he did just that.

He quit. He quit on his goal. He quit on his franchise. He quit on the people of Cleveland (and Ohio as a whole). He obviously decided that winning a championship is more important to him than any of that, and anything related to the moniker he personified and perpetuated for 7 years... KING JAMES. 

For years, he threw chalk in the air before every game as if to say "BEHOLD LITTLE PEOPLE... eople... ople... ple... le... e!! THE KING WILL NOW ENTERTAIN... tain.. ain... in... n!!!" And the Cavs looked like the best team in the league much of the past 2 seasons, dominating opponents to the tune of a 74-8 home record, and 53-29 road record the last two seasons. They were built to win a title and they played like it. 

The breakdown is that when they faced adversity in the postseason, they faultered. Simple as that. They faultered, and out came the excuses, mostly levied at Bron's supposed lack of a supporting cast. What a joke. Both years, the Cavs were good enough offensively and defensively to win a title. They just didn't get it done. They succumbed to matchup issues against the Magic and had no answer for Hedo Turkoglu's ability to create off the dribble. This year, the Celtics punched em in the mouth, but the Cavs answered the bell with Bron's big game 3 in the Bean. In the long run, the Celtics were too relentless and exposed the fact that Antawn Jamison simply wasn't in sync with the rest of the team, taking a career playoff 18 & 9 guy and making him into a scrub of sorts.

It's too bad Bron didn't have the heart or the desire to stick it out, and it's too bad that he left in the ridiculously shady fashion that he did. But this wasn't about legacy and this isn't about haters, those are copouts. You don't abandon what Lebron abandoned in search of legacy, that's laughable. He left to quinch his thirst for winning an NBA championship, period.


----------



## Duck

Sir Patchwork said:


> So loyalty is what it comes down to. This is what I'm talking about. You can concern yourself with all of that loyalty and moral victory crap. That kind of stuff doesn't mean a damn thing to me when looking at the greatest player of all-time. Loyalty is what ordinary people are much better at than professional basketball players. Basketball is what professional basketball players are much better at than ordinary people. Praising Jordan for loyalty considering his basketball abilities is like praising Kobe for going home after his 81 point game and doing his own laundry. Who ****ing cares?
> 
> If Jordan was going into the 1992 season and Scottie Pippen never came along, he'd still be getting booted out in the 1st round. At that point, he'd be a loyal loser who put up great numbers while real winners like Magic, Bird, Isiah and company won all the rings. Or he would have jetted Chicago the same way LeBron jetted Cleveland. Jordan was *lucky* that he never had to make a decision like LeBron did. It was a catch-22 for LeBron because his critics demand him to win in order to justify his greatness, but also demand him to be loyal to one of the worst franchises in the league?
> 
> It was either the *Shaquille O'Neal route or the Kevin Garnett route*. History proves which route is better for your legacy, because people will forget all about this once the dominance begins.


Don't give a **** about what these guys did. Its about what was on the table for LeBron.

"Dwade, go **** yourself."

"Dan, get me a sign and trade for Chris Bosh."

"Chris, if you wanna win a championship, play in prime time and get paid $125 million, come to my town"

"Let's go win a championship for Cleveland"


----------



## BeeGee

Sir Patchwork said:


> So loyalty is what it comes down to. This is what I'm talking about. You can concern yourself with all of that loyalty and moral victory crap. That kind of stuff doesn't mean a damn thing to me when looking at the greatest player of all-time. Loyalty is what ordinary people are much better at than professional basketball players. Basketball is what professional basketball players are much better at than ordinary people. Praising Jordan for loyalty considering his basketball abilities is like praising Kobe for going home after his 81 point game and doing his own laundry. Who ****ing cares?


Again, you miss the mark, dude. We were talking about legend and legacy, and I simply stated that loyalty is a big part of that. You obviously don't get it and I get that, so to each his own. You tried hard, but Bill Russell's legacy as a Celtic speaks for itself. So does Larry Legend's. Magic as a Laker, Michael as a Bull. The whole "pro ball players don't do loyalty" angle is yet another copout.


Sir Patchwork said:


> If Jordan was going into the 1992 season and Scottie Pippen never came along, he'd still be getting booted out in the 1st round. At that point, he'd be a loyal loser who put up great numbers while real winners like Magic, Bird, Isiah and company won all the rings. Or he would have jetted Chicago the same way LeBron jetted Cleveland. Jordan was *lucky* that he never had to make a decision like LeBron did. It was a catch-22 for LeBron because his critics demand him to win in order to justify his greatness, but also demand him to be loyal to one of the worst franchises in the league?


This first part of this is complete speculation and the desperate usage of "woulda/coulda/shoulda" renders it useless to this discussion. Come on with that bullshizm, man. Be serious. And you're even more ridiculous to try and say Cleveland was one of the league's worst franchises. With Bron at the helm, they'd become the league's winningest franchise in the league, and had made the playoffs 5 straight seasons, winning 8 series in the process. Not sure what you're talking about, but I get what you're attempting to do. Only problem is there's no way to downplay it, man.


Sir Patchwork said:


> It was either the Shaquille O'Neal route or the Kevin Garnett route. History proves which route is better for your legacy, because people will forget all about this once the dominance begins.


Shaq left to go do his own thing in LA and be the centerpiece of titles, not to team up with two or even one of the league's best players, to win a championship, so I don't see how that compares at all, lol. The Lakers had no great players when Shaq arrived - there was only speculation of how good Kobe would eventually be.

Kevin Garnett left a hopeless situation (Minnesota had bottomed back out at 32-50) after devoting 12 years to a franchise that he obviously was devoted to. He left graciously and he'd given so much to Minnesota for so long (12 years is a career for most players) that even the Minnesota fans couldn't do anything but wish him all the best. Even after that, he seemed almost reluctant to leave and didn't forget to mention the Minnesota fans when he won his title.

Lebron left a situation that was anything but hopeless. He left the winningest team in basketball coming off of back-to-back 60-win seasons, after 7 years. Ironically, KG was one of the cats that told him not to wait too long, but nevertheless the Cavs were in a position to compete for titles, having secured homecourt throughout the playoffs in consecutive seasons. He said nothing to the Cavs fans and made a spectacle of his decision with the help of ESPN and the snake of all snake reporters, Jim Gray. He unconvincingly used the veil of a backdrop of kids in an attempt to present some sort of hometown excitement/feel. His departure was anything but graceful and respectful, and Cleveland fans who felt backhanded by the way he grandstanded, cursed him and burned his jersies. 

It wasn't the Shaquille O'Neal route or the Garnett route. It was simply what will be known as "Lebroning it" from here on out. 

So Patchwork, do you have any more ridiculously unfitting examples to attempt to compare Bron's departure to?


----------



## jokeaward

I voted #1 but title not titles yet, I can't just automatically say 2+.


----------



## jokeaward

Duck34234 said:


> Don't give a **** about what these guys did. Its about what was on the table for LeBron.
> 
> "Dwade, go **** yourself."
> 
> "Dan, get me a sign and trade for Chris Bosh."
> 
> "Chris, if you wanna win a championship, play in prime time and get paid $125 million, come to my town"
> 
> "Let's go win a championship for Cleveland"


What is Bosh going to do against Rondo, Rose, and other PGs? The Cavs could rebound.

How has Bosh proven himself as a championship level player? It's entirely possible and he's given his pound of flesh to the Raptors, but do we know he's good for a Game 5 on the road? Game 7? 

Couldn't it be a Yao and T-Mac situation? Remember when they were supposed to match the Spurs and Mavs?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

BeeGee said:


> Again, you miss the mark, dude. We were talking about legend and legacy, and I simply stated that loyalty is a big part of that. You obviously don't get it and I get that, so to each his own. You tried hard, but Bill Russell's legacy as a Celtic speaks for itself. So does Larry Legend's. Magic as a Laker, Michael as a Bull. The whole "pro ball players don't do loyalty" angle is yet another copout.


Loyalty has no part of legacy. Maybe your criteria is different. If you count loyalty, then you have to count humility, and a bunch of other traits that have little to do with basketball ability. I don't care much for that when evaluating basketball players. If you do, fine. Your opinion can't be valued though, since guys like Tim Duncan will probably pop into GOAT discussions according to that criteria. 



BeeGee said:


> This first part of this is complete speculation and the desperate usage of "woulda/coulda/shoulda" renders it useless to this discussion. Come on with that bullshizm, man. Be serious. And you're even more ridiculous to try and say Cleveland was one of the league's worst franchises. With Bron at the helm, they'd become the league's winningest franchise in the league, and had made the playoffs 5 straight seasons, winning 8 series in the process. Not sure what you're talking about, but I get what you're attempting to do. Only problem is there's no way to downplay it, man.


Speculation? Are you kidding? So let me ask you this...*hypothetically*, if the Bulls had failed to put a Scottie Pippen plus a great supporting cast around Jordan, and he continued to lose early in the playoffs, would it have hurt his legacy more being disloyal and signing with another team, or staying with the Bulls and not winning any titles? 



BeeGee said:


> Shaq left to go do his own thing in LA and be the centerpiece of titles, not to team up with two or even one of the league's best players, to win a championship, so I don't see how that compares at all, lol. The Lakers had no great players when Shaq arrived - there was only speculation of how good Kobe would eventually be.


So Shaquille "left to do his thing" and LeBron committed the ultimate betrayal. Right. Shaquille left unfinished business in Orlando the same way. And the Lakers had a ton of talent besides Kobe when he signed there. 



BeeGee said:


> Kevin Garnett left a hopeless situation (Minnesota had bottomed back out at 32-50) after devoting 12 years to a franchise that he obviously was devoted to. He left graciously and he'd given so much to Minnesota for so long (12 years is a career for most players) that even the Minnesota fans couldn't do anything but wish him all the best. Even after that, he seemed almost reluctant to leave and didn't forget to mention the Minnesota fans when he won his title.


Kevin Garnett was the first one to say LeBron should leave because his loyalty was what killed his career. Kevin Garnett is right and you are wrong. 



BeeGee said:


> Lebron left a situation that was anything but hopeless. He left the winningest team in basketball coming off of back-to-back 60-win seasons, after 7 years. Ironically, KG was one of the cats that told him not to wait too long, but nevertheless the Cavs were in a position to compete for titles, having secured homecourt throughout the playoffs in consecutive seasons. It wasn't the Shaquille O'Neal route or the Garnett route. It was simply what will be known as "Lebroning it" from here on out.


You don't understand that the Cavs had no flexibility and these seasons were the max. They relied on James having historically great seasons to win those games. Jamison is getting old and Mo Williams disappeared in the playoffs two years in a row. Shaquille and Z are limited minutes players. It's one thing to win 60 games with this team in 2009, but to think that this team with no desirability to get free agents could continue to win that many games in 2011, 2012 and so forth is just ignoring the facts. Committing to this team long term would have been his nail in the coffin for winning titles in his prime.


----------



## The One

*Sir Patchwork* vs *BeeGee*

sheesh, people just love to argue :bsmile:

As far as I can tell there is nothing to argue about. Unfortunately, BeeGee, you're a cool guy but Patchwork is kinda right. LeBron's image is definitely damaged for the moment but NOT his legacy because of a simple reason: Lebron's career isn't over yet which means he has the most important weapon: TIME. Time heal's all things. While what Lebron did was unprecedented, history always shows that we forgive athletes in crisis if they humble themselves or just win and Lebron has plenty of time to change his outlook.

Take your beloved Kobe Bryant for example. In the summer of 2003 he gets accused of rape -* big back-lash*. In the summer of 2004 he gets most of the blame for Shaq getting traded and Phil leaving (with Phil calling Kobe uncoachable in a Book) - _*huge back-lash*_. In the Summer of 2005 the Lakers have their worse season in years with kobe getting blame and being labled selfish - _*outrageous back-lash*_. In the summer of 2007, Kobe ask for a trade and is seen expressing negative emotion about not trading Bynum - _*'Legacy Shattering' back-lash*_. It would appear that Kobe was at the point of no return......legacy shattered. but wait; In 2006 kobe had one of the best season in Lakers history - _*help soften the back lash*_. In 2008 He wins MVP and makes it to the finals -_*strenthens his fans relationship*. _In the Summer of 2008 He wins Gold in the Olympics - _*strenthens his marketability*._ In 2009 he win the Championship - *neutralizing the rest of the Back-lash.* In 2010 he won his second straight championship and second straight finals MVP - *Legacy Restored!*

As you see, all it took was time for kobe and we just have to wait and see if LeBron will improve his legacy...in time


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

I don't think anyone has let his fans down like Lebron ever did. Hometown kid; savior. Nope.


----------



## futuristxen

As a Lebron fan I can assert him moving to Miami didn't let me down in the slightest. It's actually pretty exciting considering his skill set. The only thing that was a let down was the Boston series, and "the decision". I actually would have been fine with the one hour special if it had any production values. But that **** was soooo poorly put together. They should have made a quick documentary to go with the decision. Visual aides explaining his logic. A thank you to the Cavs Organization and the Fans also would have helped.

It was just a royal PR **** up of the grandest order. Almost on the level of John Rocker.

But his actual decision and the logic behind it are really sound, and for people saying the Cavs were so great, remember going into this season they would have been without any center, and they already had problems with Dwight Howard. They pretty much capped out the last two seasons, a lot like the Dallas Mavericks.

IMO Lebron just avoided ending up a Dirk. Dirk is loyal as **** to the Mavs. But what's it going to get him in the end? The reputation as a loser choker. Whereas Pau Gasol is now regarded as a winner, a champion, a future hall of famer.

I'd actually say right now Pau is considered maybe even a little better than Dirk. But what's the big difference between the two of them? Pau got out of a losing situation in Memphis and went to LA. Dirk is still in one.


----------



## BeeGee

Sir Patchwork said:


> Loyalty has no part of legacy. Maybe your criteria is different. If you count loyalty, then you have to count humility, and a bunch of other traits that have little to do with basketball ability. I don't care much for that when evaluating basketball players. If you do, fine. Your opinion can't be valued though, since guys like Tim Duncan will probably pop into GOAT discussions according to that criteria.


Like I said on this in my last, to each his own. A player's legacy is definitely enhanced when he stays with one team. I think there are a multitude of examples of this.


Sir Patchwork said:


> Speculation? Are you kidding? So let me ask you this...*hypothetically*, if the Bulls had failed to put a Scottie Pippen plus a great supporting cast around Jordan, and he continued to lose early in the playoffs, would it have hurt his legacy more being disloyal and signing with another team, or staying with the Bulls and not winning any titles?


Dude, it's real simple. When your statement is NEARLY FILLED with "would/could", it's speculation. Stop pretending.


Sir Patchwork said:


> So Shaquille "left to do his thing" and LeBron committed the ultimate betrayal. Right. Shaquille left unfinished business in Orlando the same way. And the Lakers had a ton of talent besides Kobe when he signed there.


The Lakers had Nick Van Exel and Eddie Jones. The Magic had Penny Hardaway, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, and Horace Grant. Shaq went to L.A. knowing full well he was gonna be far and away the centerpiece of what was hopefully a championship team. He left behind arguably the league's most talented roster, and a team that would've almost certainly won a title. Bron left to side up to a top 3 player and one of the league's best forwards. Bron sought out superstar help. Shaq sought out a team to carry. Not the same situation - not even close.


Sir Patchwork said:


> Kevin Garnett was the first one to say LeBron should leave because his loyalty was what killed his career. Kevin Garnett is right and you are wrong.





> “Loyalty is something that hurts you at times because you can’t get youth back,” said Garnett, who advanced past the first round of the playoffs just once before winning the title with the Celtics in 2008, his first year in Boston. “I just told him, ‘Keep your head up, man. I’ve been there. You have a very, very, very bright future. Continue to work and make decisions based on you and your family.’ ”


This is far from "loyalty killed my career", but I'd be interested in you posting the quote of KG claiming loyalty killed his career. Loyalty didn't kill KG's career, but it did cost him his youth in Minnesota. He still got a championship, he played a huge role in bringing one of the league's most storied franchises back to prominence, and will still go down in history as one of the best power forwards of all-time. Some dead career, huh? You're wrong, sir patchwork, and you're trying too hard here.


Sir Patchwork said:


> You don't understand that the Cavs had no flexibility and these seasons were the max. They relied on James having historically great seasons to win those games. Jamison is getting old and Mo Williams disappeared in the playoffs two years in a row. Shaquille and Z are limited minutes players. It's one thing to win 60 games with this team in 2009, but to think that this team with no desirability to get free agents *could *continue to win that many games in 2011, 2012 and so forth is just ignoring the facts. Committing to this team long term *would *have been his nail in the coffin for winning titles in his prime.


Speculation in the purest form. Perhaps Antawn Jamison, in a full season with Lebron & co., develops chemistry and finds his niche on the team. Perhaps if Lebron commits early enough, some of the key free agents out there sign on with Cleveland. I don't think any of that is far-fetched. But to sit here and pretend to know what *would've* happened just makes you sound stupid.


----------



## BeeGee

The One said:


> *Sir Patchwork* vs *BeeGee*
> 
> sheesh, people just love to argue :bsmile:
> 
> As far as I can tell there is nothing to argue about. Unfortunately, BeeGee, you're a cool guy but Patchwork is kinda right. LeBron's image is definitely damaged for the moment but NOT his legacy because of a simple reason: Lebron's career isn't over yet which means he has the most important weapon: TIME. Time heal's all things. While what Lebron did was unprecedented, history always shows that we forgive athletes in crisis if they humble themselves or just win and Lebron has plenty of time to change his outlook.


Keeping what my point is in perspective, we're talking about a guy who in high school said he was gunning to be better than Michael Jordan. I've never been of the opinion that Bron has ruined any chance at leaving a legacy - that would be naive. He's only 25. But my whole point is that any chance of him leaving a legacy even comparable to Michael Jordan's, was abandoned in Cleveland. That's been my point the whole time.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Duck34234 said:


> Don't give a **** about what these guys did. Its about what was on the table for LeBron.
> 
> "Dwade, go **** yourself."
> 
> "Dan, get me a sign and trade for Chris Bosh."
> 
> "Chris, if you wanna win a championship, play in prime time and get paid $125 million, come to my town"
> 
> "Let's go win a championship for Cleveland"


He tried. It didn't work. Bosh had zero interest in Cleveland.


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> Keeping what my point is in perspective, we're talking about a guy who in high school said he was gunning to be better than Michael Jordan. I've never been of the opinion that Bron has ruined any chance at leaving a legacy - that would be naive. He's only 25. But my whole point is that any chance of him leaving a legacy even comparable to Michael Jordan's, was abandoned in Cleveland. That's been my point the whole time.


Could you point out to me which of those teammates in Cleveland was a top 50 all-time player in his prime?


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> Could you point out to me which of those teammates in Cleveland was a top 50 all-time player in his prime?


Sure, as soon as you point out to me another face-of-the-league player that abandoned the league's winningest team (2 straight seasons). Thanks.


----------



## IbizaXL

BeeGee said:


> Sure, as soon as you point out to me another face-of-the-league player that abandoned the league's winningest team (2 straight seasons). Thanks.


you didnt answer his question.

Weather or not James is "the face of the league" is irrelevant. It can be argued that the face of the NBA is Kobe--or some other player. Its all personal opinions. EH's Question is legit. fact is Jordan played along side one of the best players in NBA history.

James hasnt had that opprtunity till now.


----------



## BeeGee

IbizaXL said:


> you didnt answer his question.
> 
> Weather or not James is "the face of the league" is irrelevant. It can be argued that the face of the NBA is Kobe--or some other player. Its all personal opinions. EH's Question is legit. fact is Jordan played along side one of the best players in NBA history.
> 
> James hasnt had that opprtunity till now.


I didn't answer the question because it's a cop-out question that was an attempt to make some sort of profound argument-ending statement. Not happening. 

You cats act like Bron hasn't had chances to win titles... chances to shine in the biggest moments. That's why I can't do anything but laugh at you. Hakeem Olajuwon didn't use that excuse pre-Clyde, nor did Tim Duncan post-Admiral. And the fact that Lebron is the face of the league is absolutely not irrelevant when discussing his legacy. You cats wanna pretend Bron had zero help and was on teams full of bums with horrible records. Fact is, he was on the winningest team in the league, 2 years straight, with homecourt advantage throughout the playoffs, 2 years straight. Of course Scottie Pippen was there, but MJ's legacy is unmovable for reasons dictated by him, and was created out of plays that we've watched over and over and over. Bron has had some of those same moments and opportunities to shine and brew his own legacy. But I guess his shortcomings has him tired of the slow-cooking process... So he closed up shop and went to Miami in search of a microwave title. The Scottie Pippen angle is super-corny.

EH's question is a cop-out, and it's not hard to see right through that. Unless you're a Heat fan blinded by excitement. Thanks for chiming in.


----------



## BlackNRed

Duck34234 said:


> Try english next time.
> 
> Win a few games before proclaiming your team as the "new world order."
> 
> The Lakers, Magic, and maybe even the Celtics have more aggregated talent on their teams than the heat do.


What language you wanna call it Donald Duck? The Celtics and Magic as being a threat is a joke. The only ?? is how will we fare against the Lakers, namely their front court. TBD.

Yeah, get mad that the hWo is taking over. I like it.

I think it hasn't even sunk in what you guys are up against yet. It's funny.


----------



## seifer0406

BeeGee said:


> You cats wanna pretend Bron had zero help and was on teams full of bums with horrible records. Fact is, he was on the winningest team in the league, 2 years straight, with homecourt advantage throughout the playoffs, 2 years straight.


Answer this question that I asked few pages ago. If in the future theres a player who is so good that you can put 11 d-leaguers on the roster and the team wins 60+ games, does that mean the team has a good supporting cast? This is where your point is flawed. You can't prove how much of that 60+ wins is because of the team while others can somewhat prove how much is due to Lebron by watching the Cavs next year. If you want to make the assumption that good record = good supporting cast you need to prove that first.

The bottom line is this. I would take Gasol/Odom/Bynum/Artest over anyone that Lebron has ever played with. By the same token, I would take Toni Kukoc over anyone on the Cavs roster not named Lebron.


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> Sure, as soon as you point out to me another face-of-the-league player that abandoned the league's winningest team (2 straight seasons). Thanks.


A) I don't have to. You claimed that Jordan "would never have abandoned Chicago". But he never had to make that choice because Chicago found him a running mate, another top 50 all-time player. And then the necessary roleplayers to make the whole thing work. If Cleveland had found James a legitimate second star, he'd still be there. The Cadavaliers were just like the Bulls, only without the other star. They had a pile of roleplayers. Only heavily overpaid ones.

B) Shaq, more or less (as Orlando won about as many games as the Spurs & Supersonics in Shaq's last two years there).

James abandoned a team that had been badly mismanaged since he arrived. He abandoned it because while they beat the hell out of non-playoff teams, they didn't match up well against Orlando, and thanks to the sterling front office, had no real ability to re-shape the roster. Chris Bosh refused to go to Cleveland. So the Cadavaliers were a dead end for two more years. James' options were to wait until his late 20s so that Cleveland could rebuild _again_, or head for greener pastures. He chose the latter course. Good for him.


----------



## seifer0406

And don't act like Kobe wouldn't have left the Lakers if they didn't land Gasol. If that deal never happened we might be looking at Bron/Kobe pairing rather than the 3 that we have today.


----------



## IbizaXL

Micowave Championship. thats funny. Isnt that supposed to be like something done in an instant? one and out? makes no sense since James signing with Miami was more of a long term goal and win multiple rings. thats the goal this whole time along with Bosh.



> I didn't answer the question because it's a cop-out question that was an attempt to make some sort of profound argument-ending statement. Not happening.


the question is really that simple. 

I dont understand these people who feel they know what constitutes leaving a good legacy behind. At the end of the day, championships define their careers. weather you agree or disagree how they got there.


----------



## BeeGee

seifer0406 said:


> Answer this question that I asked few pages ago. If in the future theres a player who is so good that you can put 11 d-leaguers on the roster and the team wins 60+ games, does that mean the team has a good supporting cast? This is where your point is flawed. You can't prove how much of that 60+ wins is because of the team while others can somewhat prove how much is due to Lebron by watching the Cavs next year. If you want to make the assumption that good record = good supporting cast you need to prove that first.


I don't need to prove anything. Achievements prove themselves. You just took a team with 66 and 61-win seasons and labeled them 11 D-leaguers. When you wanna take the discussion seriously, get at me. Until then, get outta here.


----------



## seifer0406

BeeGee said:


> I don't need to prove anything. Achievements prove themselves. You just took a team with 66 and 61-win seasons and labeled them 11 D-leaguers. When you wanna take the discussion seriously, get at me. Until then, get outta here.


wait what? I asked a hypothetical question that doesn't involve Lebron. Answer the question, simple as that.


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> A) I don't have to. You claimed that Jordan "would never have abandoned Chicago". But he never had to make that choice because Chicago found him a running mate, another top 50 all-time player. And then the necessary roleplayers to make the whole thing work. If Cleveland had found James a legitimate second star, he'd still be there. The Cadavaliers were just like the Bulls, only without the other star. They had a pile of roleplayers. Only heavily overpaid ones.


This is another cop-out. Lebron's teammates were good enough when they were dancing and snapping pictures on the way to 66 and 61-win seasons. It's when they came up severe disappointments in the playoffs, squandered homecourt advantage, and collectively choked that they suddenly weren't good enough. This is a dead horse, dude, and one of the weakest points of the Lebron argument. It's really not even worth bringing up anymore unless you wanna use it as some part of a joke.


E.H. Munro said:


> B) Shaq, more or less (as Orlando won about as many games as the Spurs & Supersonics in Shaq's last two years there).


That doesn't help you reach a point, though, does it? Not even close.


E.H. Munro said:


> James abandoned a team that had been badly mismanaged since he arrived. He abandoned it because while they beat the hell out of non-playoff teams, they didn't match up well against Orlando, and thanks to the sterling front office, had no real ability to re-shape the roster. Chris Bosh refused to go to Cleveland. So the Cadavaliers were a dead end for two more years. James' options were to wait until his late 20s so that Cleveland could rebuild _again_, or head for greener pastures. He chose the latter course. Good for him.


There were other guys out there that could've helped Cleveland. Maybe if Bron had communicated even for one second with the front office this offseason, something could've been done? He didn't because he had no plans to. He'd already quit. He quit when the Celtics closed them out 94-85.


----------



## BeeGee

seifer0406 said:


> And don't act like Kobe wouldn't have left the Lakers if they didn't land Gasol. If that deal never happened we might be looking at Bron/Kobe pairing rather than the 3 that we have today.


Woulda/coulda/if... save that stuff, man. Kobe didn't leave the Lakers, and now he's established a legacy (in the eyes of many) as the best Laker ever. 

No matter how much you say "woulda" and "if", Kobe DIDN'T quit. And we're gunning for our 4th straight finals appearance because of it. Thanks, though.


----------



## IbizaXL

BeeGee said:


> There were other guys out there that *could've* helped Cleveland. *Maybe* *if* Bron had communicated even for one second with the front office this offseason, something *could've* been done? He didn't because he had no plans to. He'd already quit. He quit when the Celtics closed them out 94-85.


"would/could", it's speculation.

No one knows that. The fact is that Cavs management blew it and didnt do enough.


----------



## seifer0406

IbizaXL said:


> "would/could", it's speculation.
> 
> No one knows that. The fact is that Cavs management blew it and didnt do enough.


beat me to it. I like how the guy contradicts himself the very next post.

Kobe *asked* to be traded but the Lakers refused. We're not speculating whether he wanted out at some point. He did want out and we know that because he made it public. 

Let me refresh your memory, this is what Kobe said in 2007 in an interview



> "I would like to be traded, yeah. Tough as it is to come to that conclusion there's no other alternative, you know?"


No could've should've, straight from the horse's mouth.

I think this argument becomes a lot easier if everyone is forbidden to use what'ifs.

We know that the Bulls had a 50 win team without MJ because they went out and won 55 the year that MJ retired. This is what we know for a fact. If the Cavs doesn't win 55 next year, then MJ had a better supporting cast than Lebron assuming that MJ is >= than Lebron. If you want to eliminate the what-ifs, this is what we are looking at.


----------



## BeeGee

seifer0406 said:


> wait what? I asked a hypothetical question that doesn't involve Lebron. Answer the question, simple as that.


It wasn't a hypothetical question. It was an implicatory question, slick. 

But if you want me to entertain you, yes, if you put 12 D-league players on a roster with a superstar, and they win 60+ games, it's pretty obvious that the superstar had a pretty good supporting cast. It's a team sport. If the team is successful, it's almost certainly because the team plays well... um, as a team. 

The fallacy in all of this is that Lebron James absolutely had to have another star player on his team to win a title, or even get there. It's a joke and a 20/20 hindsight annual cop-out.


----------



## BeeGee

seifer0406 said:


> beat me to it. I like how the guy contradicts himself the very next post.
> 
> Kobe *asked* to be traded but the Lakers refused. We're not speculating whether he wanted out at some point. He did want out and we know that because he made it public.
> 
> Let me refresh your memory, this is what Kobe said in 2007 in an interview
> 
> 
> 
> No could've should've, straight from the horse's mouth.
> 
> I think this argument becomes a lot easier if everyone is forbidden to use what'ifs.
> 
> We know that the Bulls had a 50 win team without MJ because they went out and won 55 the year that MJ retired. This is what we know for a fact. If the Cavs doesn't win 55 next year, then MJ had a better supporting cast than Lebron assuming that MJ is >= than Lebron. If you want to eliminate the what-ifs, this is what we are looking at.


No braniac, the speculation I spoke on is the notion that Kobe would've left. Demanding a trade is one thing. Actually leaving is another. Because Kobe didn't leave, you're left to assume that he WOULD'VE left. That's possible, but he could've demanded a trade just to force action out of the front office. Wouldn't be the first time that's been done, lmao.

Either way, it's SPEC-U-LA-TION. Nice try.


----------



## seifer0406

BeeGee said:


> But if you want me to entertain you, yes, if you put 12 D-league players on a roster with a superstar, and they win 60+ games, it's pretty obvious that the superstar had a pretty good supporting cast. It's a team sport. If the team is successful, it's almost certainly because the team plays well... um, as a team.


If we assume that a good supporting cast consists of good players, you pretty much just claimed that a guy is a good player as long as he plays on a winning team.

I don't think you need me to tell you how ridiculous that claim is. But then again it goes along with the rest of your argument.



> No braniac, the speculation I spoke on is the notion that Kobe would've left. Demanding a trade is one thing. Actually leaving is another. Because Kobe didn't leave, you're left to assume that he WOULD'VE left. That's possible, but he could've demanded a trade just to force action out of the front office.
> 
> Either way, it's SPEC-U-LA-TION. Nice try.


But the guy *wanted* out. As long as we're clear on that it makes this comparison between Lebron and Kobe a lot easier. Lebron did what Kobe *wanted* to do, which is abandoning the team that he spent most of his career on. I hope that from now on when you want to put Kobe over Lebron, repeat this sentence. "Lebron quit on his team, Kobe wanted to quit on his team but didn't, and thus his legacy is greater than Lebron's." I have no problem with this statement and we can let others decide how much more of a competitor that Kobe is compared to Lebron.


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> This is another cop-out. Lebron's teammates were good enough when they were dancing and snapping pictures on the way to 66 and 61-win seasons.


Those teams featured two guys rejected by a 20 win Celtics squad that couldn't get off the bench of a twenty win Supersonics squad (Delmonte Beans & Wally Szczerbiak Szczuperstar), a late first round pick (the heavily overrated JJ Hickson), a guy rejected by a 20 wins Buck squad (Mo Williams), and a couple of second round picks (Sideshow Bob & Danny Gibson). Beginning to notice a pattern here? Maybe they actually weren't all that good.



BeeGee said:


> It's when they came up severe disappointments in the playoffs, squandered homecourt advantage, and collectively choked that they suddenly weren't good enough.


Again, maybe the reason those teammates choked is that they weren't actually all that good? The best teammates LeBron's ever had were the remains of Shaq and the mid thirties Antawn Jamison. And right there you see the nexus of the problem. There was no second star. Not ever. Jordan had that guy. That's why he wasn't faced with the same choice.



BeeGee said:


> Not even close.There were other guys out there that could've helped Cleveland.


Really? Who? What other All-Stars were lining up to play in Cleveland? Phoenix rejected all their offers for Stoudemire during the regular season. That was their best & only chance to add a second star. Once free agency began Amar'e headed for New York, and Bosh rejected Cleveland. The Cavs were screwed. Years of incompetence and bad payroll management left them in a no-win situation. 

Compare the Cadavaliers front office with San Antonio's. The Spurs always made certain that they held aside a buttload of cap-space for Tim Duncan free agent years, so that other teams found it impossible to poach him. Because every time Timmeh hit the open market, the Spurs had the cap space to add talent & keep him happy. Sort of like the Heat just did, making certain that their payroll cleared during Wade's free agent summer so that they would have the ability to add at least one other all star to Wade (and thus keep him from being tempted by offers elsewhere). 

You've yet to supply one cogent argument for why James should have willingly turned himself into this generation's Oscar Robertson. Robertson's legacy was more or less demolished by spending his prime years with a mediocre team. Had he not finally begged to be traded to a contender he'd likely not make anyone's top 10 lists despite being one of the greatest guards to ever play the game. In fact, getting traded and leaving the hometown team salvaged his legacy by allowing him to win a title in Milwaukee. James was simply smart enough to get out while there was still time (as Shaq did before him).


----------



## Theonee

Lets cut out with all should have, could have and argue with the facts.
The fact is Jordan never quit his team, even though he had worse team than James before he finally won his first title.
Shaq did not leave Orlando to join two super stars, Kobe was just a rookie with Shaq joined the Lakers.





Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Compare the above teams and tell me, who had to suffer the most, Lebron or Jordan.


----------



## seifer0406

So MJ's legacy is greater than Lebron's and Kobe's legacy is greater because he wanted to quit but didn't/couldn't.

I don't see how Shaq moving from Orlando to LA helped his legacy in terms of being a top competitor. He had a elite team in Orlando and he basically decided that he rather make movies than to play on a 60 win team that made it to the finals the year before. Glad that it worked out for him in the end but I don't think even he knew that he would have that type of success he had in LA when he made that move.


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> The fallacy in all of this is that Lebron James absolutely had to have another star player on his team to win a title, or even get there. It's a joke and a 20/20 hindsight annual cop-out.


No, it's not a joke because about the only two teams in the last thirty years to win a title without a pair of stars were the '04 Pistons and the '94 Rockets. The '04 Pistons were one of the greatest defensive teams of all time, with future all stars on its roster, and before the re-enforcement of the handchecking rules. Hamilton & Billups were all-star mainstays after that year (and technically speaking they did have two all stars on their team in Ben & Rasheed Wallace). Hell, we can probably go back even further than 30 years because the 70s Celtics, Knicks, Bucks, and Lakers squads certainly had more than one star, let's not even get into the 60s Celtics.


----------



## BeeGee

seifer0406 said:


> If we assume that a good supporting cast consists of good players, you pretty much just claimed that a guy is a good player as long as he plays on a winning team.


No, you just pretty much assumed that's what I meant. That's not even close to what I said. I said it's obvious that the star had a good supporting cast. I didn't make a statement about any one individual, so how you came out with me saying "a guy is a good player as long as he plays on a winning team" is a joke - stop it, man. It's desperate. I said C-A-S-T, which makes reference to a collective effort, not any one individual effort. This is getting ridiculous.


seifer0406 said:


> I don't think you need me to tell you how ridiculous that claim is. But then again it goes along with the rest of your argument.


I'd tell you how ridiculous that claim was... if it was actually the claim I made. Unfortunately, you're the one left looking ridiculous.


seifer0406 said:


> But the guy *wanted* out. As long as we're clear on that it makes this comparison between Lebron and Kobe a lot easier. Lebron did what Kobe *wanted* to do, which is abandoning the team that he spent most of his career on. I hope that from now on when you want to put Kobe over Lebron, repeat this sentence. "Lebron quit on his team, Kobe wanted to quit on his team but didn't, and thus his legacy is greater than Lebron's." I have no problem with this statement and we can let others decide how much more of a competitor that Kobe is compared to Lebron.


You thinking we've been comparing Bron and Kobe makes you look even more ridiculous. If you'd read back, even just a little bit, you'd find that this hasn't been a comparison between Bron and Kobe. You come out of left field, accusing me of trying to put Kobe over Lebron. I don't care one bit about those comparisons, dude. All they lead to is endless threads full of recycled statements. This discussion has become redundant enough without you attempting to turn it into a Bron vs. Kobe thing. Bron quit. Kobe didn't quit. Have fun with that if you want to.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Theonee said:


> Lets cut out with all should have, could have and argue with the facts.
> The fact is Jordan never quit his team, even though he had worse team than James before he finally won his first title.
> Shaq did not leave Orlando to join two super stars, Kobe was just a rookie with Shaq joined the Lakers.
> 
> 
> Compare the above teams and tell me, who had to suffer the most, Lebron or Jordan.


I wonder, looking at that big leap to respectability that the Bulls made, did they add another player after the 1987 season? Maybe draft a guy that didn't suck? Maybe they picked up a poor man's Gerald Wallace? :bsmile:


----------



## seifer0406

BeeGee said:


> No, you just pretty much assumed that's what I meant. That's not even close to what I said. I said it's obvious that the star had a good supporting cast. I didn't make a statement about any one individual, so how you came out with me saying "a guy is a good player as long as he plays on a winning team" is a joke - stop it, man. It's desperate. I said C-A-S-T, which makes reference to a collective effort, not any one individual effort. This is getting ridiculous.


uh no, the assumption is that good supporting cast (Or C-A-S-T, as if it makes any difference) is made up of good players. Do you disagree with this statement? Did you not make a handful of posts trying to convince that the Cavs had good players around Lebron? Am I missing something here?

If a good supporting cast is made up of good players and that a winning team must have a good supporting cast(This is again, your logic), then good players must play on winning teams. A=B, B=C, therefore A=C, simple logic, try to follow.



> I'd tell you how ridiculous that claim was... if it was actually the claim I made. Unfortunately, you're the one left looking ridiculous.


Well if you can't follow the logic of course you find it ridiculous. Try again.



> You thinking we've been comparing Bron and Kobe makes you look even more ridiculous. If you'd read back, even just a little bit, you'd find that this hasn't been a comparison between Bron and Kobe. You come out of left field, accusing me of trying to put Kobe over Lebron. I don't care one bit about those comparisons, dude. All they lead to is endless threads full of recycled statements. This discussion has become redundant enough without you attempting to turn it into a Bron vs. Kobe thing. Bron quit. Kobe didn't quit. Have fun with that if you want to.


It's ridiculous that you can't carry on a conversation without forgetting what was said. We're comparing supporting casts because we're debating whether Lebron had enough of a supporting cast to win a championship. Moreover, *you're* the one that brought up Lebron abandoning teams thus I'm responding to *your* post by pointing out that Lebron did what Kobe wanted to do. This isn't firing from left field, this is taking what you've given me and making the most of it.


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> No, it's not a joke because about the only two teams in the last thirty years to win a title without a pair of stars were the '04 Pistons and the '94 Rockets. The '04 Pistons were one of the greatest defensive teams of all time, with future all stars on its roster, and before the re-enforcement of the handchecking rules. Hamilton & Billups were all-star mainstays after that year (and technically speaking they did have two all stars on their team in Ben & Rasheed Wallace). Hell, we can probably go back even further than 30 years because the 70s Celtics, Knicks, Bucks, and Lakers squads certainly had more than one star, let's not even get into the 60s Celtics.


Meh, the 04-05 Spurs barely had a 20-pt scorer (Duncan), and Gino and Parker both scored 16 a game. They won 59 games, and subsequently a title with great team defense, rebounding, and offensive balance. But there wasn't really a second bonafide star there. Bron this year puts up 29.7 a game. Mo Williams and Jamison both 15.8 per game. They won 59 games with the 4th best points allowed and 3rd best FG% defense. They were bested in the playoffs by a Celtics team that was simply more in tune, and they weren't able to protect homecourt.

Here's the bottom line and probably my last statement on this, because this could otherwise go all night...

Lebron James & his supporting cast were good enough for the Cavs to have won a title. They were good enough offensively, and they were good enough defensively. But they ran into a Celtics team that was kicking ass and taking names all postseason long. They lost and then Lebron quit.


----------



## RIP CITY

It's going to be funny when Miami starts winning Championships and everyone realizes D-Wade is a better player than LeBron.


----------



## seifer0406

lol, I read that as

"I'm losing this argument and I should exit stage left before I make a fool of myself. Let me shout out my point one last time before people mock it because I can't support any of it."


----------



## BeeGee

seifer0406 said:


> uh no, the assumption is that good supporting cast (Or C-A-S-T, as if it makes any difference) is made up of good players. Do you disagree with this statement? Did you not make a handful of posts trying to convince that the Cavs had good players around Lebron? Am I missing something here?


No, the point is that the supporting cast plays well together, as a unit. So obviously you are missing something. You're missing a point in an argument that you jumped into, lol.


seifer0406 said:


> If a good supporting cast is made up of good players and that a winning team must have a good supporting cast, then good players must play on good teams. A=B, B=C, therefore A=C, simple logic, try to follow.


No. You try to follow. Stop trying to force the assumption that a group that plays well as a unit is made up of good individual players. It's not a hard concept to grasp, but I'm sure you'll figure out a way to screw it up.


seifer0406 said:


> It's ridiculous that you can't carry on a conversation without forgetting what was said. We're comparing supporting casts because we're debating whether Lebron had enough of a supporting cast to win a championship. Moreover, *you're* the one that brought up Lebron abandoning teams thus I'm responding to your *post* by pointing out that Lebron did what Kobe wanted to do. This isn't firing from left field, this is taking what you've given me and making the most of it.


Last post, you accused me of some "Kobe over Bron" argument that hasn't existed with me on this thread. You're not responding to anything. What you've done is show how dumb someone looks when they parachute in on a debate and don't bother reading up on what's being discussed. Bounce, man. Get outta here.


----------



## BeeGee

seifer0406 said:


> lol, I read that as
> 
> "I'm losing this argument and I should exit stage left before I make a fool of myself. Let me shout out my point one last time before people mock it because I can't support any of it."


Says the clown that tried to turn this into a Kobe vs. Bron argument. Come correct after you go back and read up.


----------



## seifer0406

BeeGee said:


> No, the point is that the supporting cast plays well together, as a unit. So obviously you are missing something. You're missing a point in an argument that you jumped into, lol.


Then why do you bring up individual players that the Cavs had and try to convince people that they are any good. For all we know they could be D-leaguer material and it wouldn't matter under your logic.

Again, I ask if you disagree with the statement that a good supporting cast is made up of good players. Let me get a yes or a no and I'll have fun with it.



> Last post, you accused me of some "Kobe over Bron" argument that hasn't existed with me on this thread. You're not responding to anything. What you've done is show how dumb someone looks when they parachute in on a debate and don't bother reading up on what's being discussed. Bounce, man. Get outta here.


Please, theres only so much nonsense a guy can spew before someone somewhere has to jump in. You provided the nonsense, and I'm simply pointing it out.


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> Meh, the 04-05 Spurs barely had a 20-pt scorer (Duncan), and Gino and Parker both scored 16 a game.


Could you point out the players on the Cavs as good as the 27 year old Manu Ginobli & 22 year old Tony Parker (and I admire your chutzpah in trying to demote them from star status, but you're pretty much alone there). And without making a joke like "The 35 year old Antawn Jamison and Mo Big Game Williams!"


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

futuristxen said:


> As a Lebron fan I can assert him moving to Miami didn't let me down in the slightest. It's actually pretty exciting considering his skill set. The only thing that was a let down was the Boston series, and "the decision". I actually would have been fine with the one hour special if it had any production values. But that **** was soooo poorly put together. They should have made a quick documentary to go with the decision. Visual aides explaining his logic. A thank you to the Cavs Organization and the Fans also would have helped.
> 
> It was just a royal PR **** up of the grandest order. Almost on the level of John Rocker.
> 
> But his actual decision and the logic behind it are really sound, and for people saying the Cavs were so great, remember going into this season they would have been without any center, and they already had problems with Dwight Howard. They pretty much capped out the last two seasons, a lot like the Dallas Mavericks.
> 
> IMO Lebron just avoided ending up a Dirk. Dirk is loyal as **** to the Mavs. But what's it going to get him in the end? The reputation as a loser choker. Whereas Pau Gasol is now regarded as a winner, a champion, a future hall of famer.
> 
> I'd actually say right now Pau is considered maybe even a little better than Dirk. But what's the big difference between the two of them? Pau got out of a losing situation in Memphis and went to LA. Dirk is still in one.


Oh, so those burning jerseys were signs of good faith then. Comparing Lebron to Gasol and Dirk? Lebron is the hometown kid, the face of the franchise that hasn't had one since I don't know. Cleveland was his team, then he left to be on Wade's team. Cleveland will never be as good again. No championships. It's very easy to understand the animosity, right?


----------



## BeeGee

seifer0406 said:


> Then why do you bring up individual players that the Cavs had and try to convince people that they are any good. For all we know they could be D-leaguer material and it wouldn't matter under your logic.


That's my whole point. It doesn't matter to anybody until the Cavs lose and then it's time to point fingers.


seifer0406 said:


> Again, I ask if you disagree with the statement that a good supporting cast is made up of good players. Let me get a yes or a no and I'll have fun with it.


Not necessarily. A good supporting cast could be made up completely of specialty players that do one thing particularly well, but aren't necessarily good all-around players (i.e. Bruce Bowen). It's not a yes or no absolute like you're trying to make it, man. At some point, you're gonna have to get past that one and deal with it.


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> Could you point out the players on the Cavs as good as the 27 year old Manu Ginobli & 22 year old Tony Parker (and I admire your chutzpah in trying to demote them from star status, but you're pretty much alone there). And without making a joke like "The 35 year old Antawn Jamison and Mo Big Game Williams!"


First of all, in 04/05, neither Ginobili nor Parker were star players. Tony Parker spent more time in Greg Popovich's doghouse than my son does playing Call of Duty. Manu was seen as a potential star, but was still raw and erratic. Bruce Bowen's defense, if anything, was the "second fiddle" to Tim Duncan on that team, which held teams to 88 a game. So, sorry to disappoint you, but 04/05 Parker & Ginobili were no better than 09/10 Jamison & Williams.


----------



## seifer0406

BeeGee said:


> That's my whole point. It doesn't matter to anybody until the Cavs lose and then it's time to point fingers.


What is your point exactly. You *argue* when people criticize the Cavs for not having good players on their team yet here you're saying that they might not be any good? Then why argue about it in the first place? You can't do both at once dude. It's contradicting and makes you seem like you're reaching in your argument.



> Not necessarily. A good supporting cast could be made up *completely of specialty players* that do one thing particularly well, but aren't necessarily good all-around players (i.e. Bruce Bowen). It's not a yes or no absolute like you're trying to make it, man. At some point, you're gonna have to get past that one and deal with it.


I'm not going to argue the fact that no championship team I know of in the last 30 years had 1 star and a cast made up of *completely of specialty players*. I hope this isn't one of those "Could've, would've" points that you despise.

But anyway, good specialty players are considered as good players, isn't that self-explanatory? If you haven't realized, I'm curious to know your logic behind the notion that as long as you're playing for a winning team, you must be a good player (or good at something). That just isn't the case because as you've said it yourself, if 11 d-leaguers is paired up with a star and the team wins 60+ games, those 11 d-leaguers would automatically be considered good because they play on winning teams. Again, I'm not going to point the right/wrong of that logic, other people can make their own judgement here.


----------



## Tooeasy

parker and ginobili were consistent as hell the entire postseason that year, i believe ginobili averaged 20 ppg on 50% shooting and lit it up from behind the arc.


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> First of all, in 04/05, neither Ginobili nor Parker were star players.


Manu Ginobli was not seen as "raw and erratic" in 2005. He was, in fact, an all star in 2005. His PER was over 20, which you generally see with all star players not voted in as fan favourites (see AI in late years). Tony Parker would play in the next three all star games, so that's pretty well out of the window, as well. 

As for your claims of Williams'/Jamison's superiority, I will point out that neither's PER was actually as high as the "erratic, doghouse-bound" Tony Parker. I'm not hung up on the number, as it's only a quick & dirty measure of overall production. But the numbers tell us that James' two "star sidekicks" weren't as productive as a player that you're dismissing as a scrub, despite the fact that he was an all star from 2006-2008.


----------



## E.H. Munro

seifer0406 said:


> I'm not going to argue the fact that no championship team I know of in the last 30 years had 1 star and a cast made up of *completely of specialty players*. I hope this isn't one of those "Could've, would've" points that you despise.


Technically speaking you could probably classify the '94 Rockets that way. But they'd be the only team in the last forty that I can think of.


----------



## BeeGee

Tooeasy said:


> parker and ginobili were consistent as hell the entire postseason that year, i believe ginobili averaged 20 ppg on 50% shooting and lit it up from behind the arc.


The Spurs won that title with defense though. This years Cavs averaged more points, but they weren't solid at all defensively and the Celtics got way too many easy buckets and had their way with the Cavs on the defensive end.


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> Manu Ginobli was not seen as "raw and erratic" in 2005. He was, in fact, an all star in 2005. His PER was over 20, which you generally see with all star players not voted in as fan favourites (see AI in late years). Tony Parker would play in the next three all star games, so that's pretty well out of the window, as well.
> 
> As for your claims of Williams'/Jamison's superiority, I will point out that neither's PER was actually as high as the "erratic, doghouse-bound" Tony Parker. I'm not hung up on the number, as it's only a quick & dirty measure of overall production. But the numbers tell us that James' two "star sidekicks" weren't as productive as a player that you're dismissing as a scrub, despite the fact that he was an all star from 2006-2008.


I'll admit to maybe judging Manu a little harshly, but never did I claim Williams/jamison to be superior. And PER is overused, man. And I didn't dismiss anyone as a scrub, so enough with the putting words in my mouth. I was in San Antonio during those seasons and watched every single game they played. Pop was constantly in Parker's 4ss. 

Antawn Jamison came to the Cavs averaging 20pts 8rebs per game. We hear all the time that "the great players make players around them better", yet nobody mentions that Jamison seemed a shell of himself and completely out of sync (especially on offense) the entire time he was there last season. Nobody factors any of this in and nobody questions aloud why Bron wasn't able to get more out of a career 20-10 type player. He was the move that was supposed to solidify Cleveland's run to the finals - he was supposed to be the guy.

But everybody has perfect vision after the Cavs flame out, and everybody's perfect vision says Bron simply didn't have enough. It's all a big cop-out, with Bron getting all of the sympathy and none of the blame as the leader of that team. The Cavs annual choke was a collective effort, from Mike Brown's decision-making and inability to make adjustments game-to-game in the playoffs, down the the players not stepping up like they had all season.


----------



## BeeGee

seifer0406 said:


> What is your point exactly. You *argue* when people criticize the Cavs for not having good players on their team yet here you're saying that they might not be any good? Then why argue about it in the first place? You can't do both at once dude. It's contradicting and makes you seem like you're reaching in your argument.


What I've been saying for 3 pages now, is that the Cavs collectively, were good enough. As a supporting cast to Bron, they were good enough. They were good enough until the Cavs lost and then they become complete bums in the minds of everyone. That's funny to me. They spend most of the year atop the power-rankings and are praised for how cohesive their team is around its superstar... Praised for their 4th ranked defense, 2nd best road record in the league... 2nd best point differential, etc, etc. As soon as the team that was good enough to bank 61 wins loses homecourt advantage in the playoffs, the talk begins. Once they lose, it's the same thing all over again... "Bron didn't have enough and the Cavs didn't get him enough to win" It's laughable.



seifer0406 said:


> I'm not going to argue the fact that no championship team I know of in the last 30 years had 1 star and a cast made up of *completely of specialty players*. I hope this isn't one of those "Could've, would've" points that you despise.


Ok



seifer0406 said:


> But anyway, good specialty players are considered as good players, isn't that self-explanatory? If you haven't realized, I'm curious to know your logic behind the notion that as long as you're playing for a winning team, you must be a good player (or good at something).


You did it again. I never said that. I simply said that on a successful team (like the Cavs), it's pretty much a certainty that the supporting cast is playing well.


----------



## E.H. Munro

BeeGee said:


> I'll admit to maybe judging Manu a little harshly, but never did I claim Williams/jamison to be superior. And PER is overused, man. And I didn't dismiss anyone as a scrub, so enough with the putting words in my mouth. I was in San Antonio during those seasons and watched every single game they played.


PER is just a quick measure of overall production. It's used improperly, in my opinion, when trying to read too much into the number. But as a quick & dirty measure of overall production, it's fine.



BeeGee said:


> Antawn Jamison came to the Cavs averaging 20pts 8rebs per game. We hear all the time that "the great players make players around them better", yet nobody mentions that Jamison seemed a shell of himself and completely out of sync (especially on offense) the entire time he was there last season.


Thanks for letting us all know that Rajon Rondo is one of the worst point guards in the NBA. Just look at how much Garnett & Allen's production fell after they came to Boston! 

I think more to the point is the fact that Jamison went from posting empty numbers in a losing cause to a team with multiple scorers that required him to sublimate his game to the overall betterment of the team. Sort of like Garnett has done since coming to Boston. KG's gladly surrendered his counting numbers to compete for titles. Jamison just sort of looks lost when he's not getting any counting numbers, doesn't he? It might just help explain why the winningest team he ever played on prior to coming to Cleveland was a 50 win Dallas squad that was considered a vast disappointment.




BeeGee said:


> Nobody factors any of this in and nobody questions aloud why Bron wasn't able to get more out of a career 20-10 type player. He was the move that was supposed to solidify Cleveland's run to the finals - he was supposed to be the guy.


The only career 20/10 guy on the Cavs is Shaq, who's years from giving that sort of performance. I mean, yes, Antawn Jamison did once have a 20/10 season, (not so) coincidentally in a contract year, but he is in no way a "career 20/10 guy".


----------



## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> PER is just a quick measure of overall production. It's used improperly, in my opinion, when trying to read too much into the number. But as a quick & dirty measure of overall production, it's fine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E.H. Munro said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think more to the point is the fact that Jamison went from posting empty numbers in a losing cause to a team with multiple scorers that required him to sublimate his game to the overall betterment of the team. Sort of like Garnett has done since coming to Boston. KG's gladly surrendered his counting numbers to compete for titles. Jamison just sort of looks lost when he's not getting any counting numbers, doesn't he? It might just help explain why the winningest team he ever played on prior to coming to Cleveland was a 50 win Dallas squad that was considered a vast disappointment.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it boils down to the difference in coming in past mid-season, and having a training camp and full season. Even while they were winning, the guy just looked lost, as if his role was never defined and he was left to fit in where he could get in. That and Mike Brown's reluctance to play Hixon and establish any kind of effective rotation amongst his bigs, just made them seem all the more vulnerable and for the Celtic's taking.
> 
> 
> E.H. Munro said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only career 20/10 guy on the Cavs is Shaq, who's years from giving that sort of performance. I mean, yes, Antawn Jamison did once have a 20/10 season, (not so) coincidentally in a contract year, but he is in no way a "career 20/10 guy".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Career-wise, he's 19.8 points 8.1 rebounds a game. Be picky if you want, but what I said was a "20/10 type player". The numbers are there - no need to play dumb about it. In my opinion, with a training camp and full season with Bron, Jamison may have put up career bests.
Click to expand...


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## kbdullah

You could argue the Detroit Pistons won a championship with a starting lineup consisting entirely of specialty players.


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## jokeaward

Chan said:


> I don't think anyone has let his fans down like Lebron ever did. Hometown kid; savior. Nope.


Len Bias. Michael Vick. Earl the GOAT.


----------



## Adam

Nobody is going to care about this in a short while. Figo to Real Madrid. Now there was a bigger controversy because those teams were rivals.


----------



## The One

BeeGee said:


> What I've been saying for 3 pages now, is that the Cavs collectively, were good enough. As a supporting cast to Bron, they were good enough. They were good enough until the Cavs lost and then they become complete bums in the minds of everyone. That's funny to me. They spend most of the year atop the power-rankings and are praised for how cohesive their team is around its superstar... Praised for their 4th ranked defense, 2nd best road record in the league... 2nd best point differential, etc, etc. As soon as the team that was good enough to bank 61 wins loses homecourt advantage in the playoffs, the talk begins. Once they lose, it's the same thing all over again... "Bron didn't have enough and the Cavs didn't get him enough to win" It's laughable.


^this...(infact, this quote can't be argued with)

Sometimes, BeeGee, it's best to go right to the point. You feel the impulse to respond to everyones rebuttals and it causes you to go in circles to counter what people are posting. e.g



EXAMPLE said:


> E.H. Munro said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could you point out the players on the Cavs as good as the 27 year old Manu Ginobli & 22 year old Tony Parker (and I admire your chutzpah in trying to demote them from star status, but you're pretty much alone there). And without making a joke like "The 35 year old Antawn Jamison and Mo Big Game Williams!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BeeGee said:
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, in 04/05, neither Ginobili nor Parker were star players. Tony Parker spent more time in Greg Popovich's doghouse than my son does playing Call of Duty. Manu was seen as a potential star, but was still raw and erratic. Bruce Bowen's defense, if anything, was the "second fiddle" to Tim Duncan on that team, which held teams to 88 a game. So, sorry to disappoint you, but 04/05 Parker & Ginobili were no better than 09/10 Jamison & Williams.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tooeasy said:
> 
> 
> 
> parker and ginobili were consistent as hell the entire postseason that year, i believe ginobili averaged 20 ppg on 50% shooting and lit it up from behind the arc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E.H. Munro said:
> 
> 
> 
> Manu Ginobli was not seen as "raw and erratic" in 2005. He was, in fact, an all star in 2005. His PER was over 20, which you generally see with all star players not voted in as fan favourites (see AI in late years). Tony Parker would play in the next three all star games, so that's pretty well out of the window, as well.
> 
> As for your claims of Williams'/Jamison's superiority, I will point out that neither's PER was actually as high as the "erratic, doghouse-bound" Tony Parker. I'm not hung up on the number, as it's only a quick & dirty measure of overall production. But the numbers tell us that James' two "star sidekicks" weren't as productive as a player that you're dismissing as a scrub, despite the fact that he was an all star from 2006-2008.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BeeGee said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Spurs won that title with defense though. This years Cavs averaged more points, but they weren't solid at all defensively and the Celtics got way too many easy buckets and had their way with the Cavs on the defensive end.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BeeGee said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll admit to maybe judging Manu a little harshly, but never did I claim Williams/jamison to be superior. And PER is overused, man. And I didn't dismiss anyone as a scrub, so enough with the putting words in my mouth. I was in San Antonio during those seasons and watched every single game they played. Pop was constantly in Parker's 4ss.
> 
> Antawn Jamison came to the Cavs averaging 20pts 8rebs per game. We hear all the time that "the great players make players around them better", yet nobody mentions that Jamison seemed a shell of himself and completely out of sync (especially on offense) the entire time he was there last season. Nobody factors any of this in and nobody questions aloud why Bron wasn't able to get more out of a career 20-10 type player. He was the move that was supposed to solidify Cleveland's run to the finals - he was supposed to be the guy.
> 
> But everybody has perfect vision after the Cavs flame out, and everybody's perfect vision says Bron simply didn't have enough. It's all a big cop-out, with Bron getting all of the sympathy and none of the blame as the leader of that team. The Cavs annual choke was a collective effort, from Mike Brown's decision-making and inability to make adjustments game-to-game in the playoffs, down the the players not stepping up like they had all season.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

The First Quote was a valid question though he did put a little bait for you.

The Second Quote: You were unfortunately in 'Arguing Mode' and caught the bait (which was probably E.H's plan) so instead of thinking factual to support your claims, you kinda argued with a little parker and ginobli bashing and Call Of Duty references to support your claim. 

The Third and Fourth Quote were factual rebuttals to your quip.

The Fifth: You were respounding to Tooeasy. You tried to soften your last response by saying that the Spurs defense was better than the Cavs even though that kinda actually hurts your argument of how you really feel about the Cavs "Praised for their 4th ranked defense, 2nd best road record in the league... 2nd best point differential, etc" (going in Circles)

The Sixth Quote: You were respounding to E.H. You relized that what you said about the spurs was a bit off and then (correctly) you came back to the main debate about the Cavs. 

All of your debates, so far, goes in this pattern and it causes other posters to not see your point of view. So instead of just respounding and arguing; take time, think, and then really make your point. The best posts are the ones that nobody can really argue with.


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## BeeGee

The One said:


> All of your debates, so far, goes in this pattern and it causes other posters to not see your point of view. So instead of just respounding and arguing; take time, think, and then really make your point. The best posts are the ones that nobody can really argue with.


The One, I appreciate the advise, I really do, but I'm good bruh and I got this. The whole Lebron thing is helter-skelter, and so goes the many debates on it. 90% of it is mostly babble anyways. Most cats made their point in their first post. The rest is just typical back & forth stuff. Not a whole lot of time to spit at work, being in and out of the office, so I just spit it. 

I'm new here, but I'm not new to this - I'm good, thanks.


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## E.H. Munro

kbdullah said:


> You could argue the Detroit Pistons won a championship with a starting lineup consisting entirely of specialty players.


You could but you'd be wrong.


----------



## jokeaward

Why would the other Cavs not be bums? And it wasn't even the same rotation, Hickson got 24 MPG in March and 27 in April, then *7* in the playoffs. Jamison was getting 30+ and should have pulled himself out in some games at the end. Mo and Shaq got 59 MPG combined and about 20 of those were worth anything.

It's hard for Lebron to "seal the deal" when they're down by 10 or more.


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## E.H. Munro

The One said:


> The Second Quote: You were unfortunately in 'Arguing Mode' and caught the bait (which was probably E.H's plan) so instead of thinking factual to support your claims, you kinda argued with a little parker and ginobli bashing and Call Of Duty references to support your claim.


I didn't bait. He'd claimed that the 2005 Spurs were Tim Duncan and roleplayers. I simply asked who on the Cavs were the equal of Parker & Ginobli. I expected that he'd admit that he forgot about them.


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## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> I didn't bait. He'd claimed that the 2005 Spurs were Tim Duncan and roleplayers. I simply asked who on the Cavs were the equal of Parker & Ginobli. I expected that he'd admit that he forgot about them.


I didn't think you were baiting me, just presenting your argument. I didn't forget about them, though. I did however, shortchange Manu on his all-star status, as I said. I still think the biggest stars for the Spurs, a team predicated on defense (limiting opponents to 88 a game), were Duncan and Bruce Bowen, who never gets the credit he deserves. In 3 of the 4 wins against the Pistons that year, they held Detroit to 76 points or lower. For a team who's best offense was its defense, Duncan and Bowen were the 1-2 punch. My opinion.


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

jokeaward said:


> Len Bias. Michael Vick. Earl the GOAT.


None of them crushed the hopes of their hometown like Lebron did. I don't even know which Earl you're talking.


----------



## Wade County

Yeah, how dare Len Bias die.

WTF...?


----------



## seifer0406

BeeGee said:


> Once they lose, it's the same thing all over again... "Bron didn't have enough and the Cavs didn't get him enough to win" It's laughable.


Like One said this is going around in circles. Until we see the record that the Cavs put out this year, there is no definite proof of how good Lebron's supporting cast really is. Therefore I'll wait until we're at least halfway through the season.

I disagree with your statement that all good teams have good supporting casts. Until you can define the impact in terms of wins that the star player brings you simply cannot prove your statement.

I'll leave with this. The Cavs collectively did not have enough to win a championship. Obviously if they had enough they would've won. Because of poor salary management the Cavs did not have the necessary means to drastically improve their roster. Realizing his own limitations, Lebron decided that there is nothing more that he could do that could turn the Cavs into a championship team. After he came to that conclusion, he left. It's the same thought process that Kobe went through when he demanded to be traded and it's the same thing that KG went through. If that makes Lebron a quitter, so be it.

Like I said, I'll be watching the Cavs this year and see how good of a team they have without Lebron. Hopefully they prove me wrong and show everyone that they're not "bums" but rather under-rated specialty players that people tend to ignore.


----------



## BeeGee

seifer0406 said:


> Like One said this is going around in circles. Until we see the record that the Cavs put out this year, there is no definite proof of how good Lebron's supporting cast really is. Therefore I'll wait until we're at least halfway through the season.
> 
> I disagree with your statement that all good teams have good supporting casts. Until you can define the impact in terms of wins that the star player brings you simply cannot prove your statement.
> 
> I'll leave with this. The Cavs collectively did not have enough to win a championship. Obviously if they had enough they would've won. Because of poor salary management the Cavs did not have the necessary means to drastically improve their roster. Realizing his own limitations, Lebron decided that there is nothing more that he could do that could turn the Cavs into a championship team. After he came to that conclusion, he left. It's the same thought process that Kobe went through when he demanded to be traded and it's the same thing that KG went through. If that makes Lebron a quitter, so be it.
> 
> Like I said, I'll be watching the Cavs this year and see how good of a team they have without Lebron. Hopefully they prove me wrong and show everyone that they're not "bums" but rather under-rated specialty players that people tend to ignore.


Fair enough. I simply think that when you find a successful team, you'll usually find a supporting cast that is playing well. The Cavs exhibited this the entire season, IMO. The Celtics were simply better and seemed more prepared and more adjusted game-to-game.

I think numerous teams had enough to win a championship this year. That doesn't mean they're gonna do it though. Just because the Cavs lost doesn't mean they didn't have enough to win. I honestly believe Lebron quit on his team. He wants to win a championship right now, and I think he tired of the process in Cleveland, so he abandoned ship.

With Bron not being there, the perception of the Cavs will likely be skewed. The players that served as role players and pieces around Bron will now be counted on to fill his void, so some guys are obviously gonna produce more. I don't think that will prove or disprove anything. I think the proved all they needed to this season and last. The simply, as a unit (including Bron) didn't have enough to get past the matchup problems with Orlando and Boston. 

Respect, man.


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## Najee

Quick question: Where was this talent on Cleveland sans LeBron James that some people keep defending and rationalizing? Maybe it's me, but I get tired of hearing/reading that blanket statement of "They had the best record in the NBA, so LeBron couldn't have done it all by himself!"

For instance, Mo Williams was the Cavs' second best player. However, how many playoff-caliber teams would he enjoy a similar status (barring a trade of a player at the same position)? Of last year's playoff teams, I can see him being the third-best player for Charlotte and possibly even the No. 2 man in Miami. For all the other teams, the fourth-best player or worse. Even for teams like Memphis and Houston, he likely would be possibly the fourth-best player.

Seriously, I would LOVE to see Kobe Bryant try to win a title with a 38-year-old Shaq or the corpse that is Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Anderson Varejao is basically a lesser version of Joakim Noah. Jamario Moon and Anthony Parker are nondescript role players, and so is Delonte West. Antwan Jamison was a good player, but he looked lost in his short time with LeBron in Cleveland plus he is 34. I just see a lot of spare parts and bit players mostly with this team.


----------



## Najee

BeeGee said:


> The fallacy in all of this is that Lebron James absolutely had to have another star player on his team to win a title, or even get there. It's a joke and a 20/20 hindsight annual cop-out.


Look at the teams that usually have won NBA titles. Look at the players who are considered among the best in NBA history who played on championship teams. Most of the teams had at least two players who in their prime (or relatively close to it) were all-star caliber to hall of fame-level.

Rarely have great players and teams won without that formula. Not Magic Johnson, not Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, not Larry Bird, not Isiah Thomas, not Michael Jordan, not Hakeem Olajuwon, not David Robinson, not Tim Duncan, not Wilt Chamberlain, not Kobe Bryant, not Bill Russell, not Julius Erving, not Shaquille O'Neal, not Dwyane Wade. Look at the '80s Lakers and Celtics teams or the early '70s Knicks team or the '80s Bad Boys teams -- they weren't exactly a team full of scrubs.

LeBron James had NO ONE in Cleveland. Surely, you don't want to argue that Mo Williams is a building block type of player. Of course, it would force you to ignore the fact that he actually doesn't create mismatches on the floor and disappears in the playoffs. Williams would be hard pressed to be more than the fourth-best player on most other playoff-caliber teams -- and this was the best running mate LeBron had the past two years (and possibly during his time in Cleveland)?!?

Did Kevin Garnett take the easy way out by not wanting to play for Minnesota any more? What about Oscar Robertson in Cincinnati? Did they fail at daring to be great? No, they just got sick of going to war with lesser teammates and getting outgunned against the top teams of their times. The only difference is LeBron didn't want to waste his prime years on poor teams, like KG and The Big O did.

What LeBron realized is that no matter what he does in Cleveland, he's not going to be able to beat the top teams in the league in a seven-game series when Mo Williams as his best sidekick. In that respect, he was no better than KG or The Big O was, or for that matter Jordan before Scottie Pippen developed into an all-star caliber player (and eventual hall of famer).


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## E.H. Munro

Actually, Hakeem did do it once. But the '94 Rockets are really the only instance I can think of. I mean I guess Otis Thorpe was a former all-star. But I'm not sure that really counts.


----------



## Najee

E.H. Munro said:


> Actually, Hakeem did do it once. But the '94 Rockets are really the only instance I can think of. I mean I guess Otis Thorpe was a former all-star. But I'm not sure that really counts.


I know, that's why I said the word "rarely" in the previous sentence. Also, we have to take into account that was the nadir known as the 1993-94 season, where it seemed the NBA definitely took a step back in quality depth and talent.

Another team would be the exception would be the 1974-75 Golden State Warriors, with Rick Barry, a rookie Jamaal Wilkes and some complementary players. Then there is the 2004 Detroit Pistons, which was made up of several quality starters (Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace and Tayshaun Prince). 

But as we seem to agree, it doesn't happen that often. I personally find it difficult to have seen LeBron James winning a title in Cleveland with Mo Williams as his best running mate.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

The One said:


> Take your beloved Kobe Bryant for example. In the summer of 2003 he gets accused of rape -* big back-lash*. In the summer of 2004 he gets most of the blame for Shaq getting traded and Phil leaving (with Phil calling Kobe uncoachable in a Book) - _*huge back-lash*_. In the Summer of 2005 the Lakers have their worse season in years with kobe getting blame and being labled selfish - _*outrageous back-lash*_. In the summer of 2007, Kobe ask for a trade and is seen expressing negative emotion about not trading Bynum - _*'Legacy Shattering' back-lash*_. It would appear that Kobe was at the point of no return......legacy shattered. but wait; In 2006 kobe had one of the best season in Lakers history - _*help soften the back lash*_. In 2008 He wins MVP and makes it to the finals -_*strenthens his fans relationship*. _In the Summer of 2008 He wins Gold in the Olympics - _*strenthens his marketability*._ In 2009 he win the Championship - *neutralizing the rest of the Back-lash.* In 2010 he won his second straight championship and second straight finals MVP - *Legacy Restored!*


This is exactly right. What's funny is I defended Kobe harder than anyone since 2006 and you heard a lot of the same crap after he "quit" on his team in game 7 or the radio interview where he demanded to be traded and called out his teammates. 

I do just like to argue sometimes, but I feel some people have pre-existing agendas and were looking for a reason to write off LeBron. Nothing will change that.


----------



## Nevus

Sir Patchwork said:


> I do just like to argue sometimes, but I feel some people have pre-existing agendas and were looking for a reason to write off LeBron. Nothing will change that.


Some people have been waiting years for something like this to happen.

And what really happened, anyway? LeBron left in free agency, as many people expected him to do, and ESPN made a big deal out of it, as everyone knew they would.

Did anything really happen here?


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## 76ersFan11

Beegee is right. Jamison a 19/8 player is a very good hybrid forward that actually had a breakout year before he was traded to Cleveland. I'd say he's a legitimate 2nd option, with Mo Williams being an excellent 3rd option. And you got bigs like Varejao and Hickson. And defensive guards like Delonte West and Anthony Parker.

So why did Cleveland fail? INTERIOR DEFENSE. There was none of it. Shaq should just retire, Big Z is a jumpshooting big man. Cleveland had nothing on the interior and that was exposed twice. By Hedo abusing Cleveland's bigs on the pick and roll and by KG attacking the Cavs inside. 

I imagine even Samuel Dalembert, would've made a big difference in Cleveland. In fact, given how that team went about it's business, having fun, etc. That suits Sam's personality. Hmm, what could've been if Cle were interested.


----------



## Najee

76ersFan11 said:


> Beegee is right. Jamison a 19/8 player is a very good hybrid forward that actually had a breakout year before he was traded to Cleveland. I'd say he's a legitimate 2nd option, with Mo Williams being an excellent 3rd option. And you got bigs like Varejao and Hickson. And defensive guards like Delonte West and Anthony Parker.


I don't know how a player in his 11th NBA season has a "breakout year," especially when Antwan Jamison's 2008-09 season was no different from his production the majority of his career at that point.

Jamison struggled to fit into Cleveland's offense, partially because of an unsettled rotation. Moreover, Jamison historically has been less effective offensively in the playoffs than in the regular season. He's not much of a passer and an even worse defender.

Also, look at Golden State's teams when Jamison was the best player on the squad. The best record the Warriors had was 38-44 in 2003-04 and a lot of those years were significantly worse than that. Even on those Washington teams with Gilbert Arenas having All-Star years with Jamison as the wingman, the best those Wizards teams did were 45-37 in 2004-05. 

Mo Williams isn't nearly the player Arenas was during those Wizards teams, not to mention Washington also had Larry Hughes' contract year and Caron Butler as a third option. Who is the third best player on a LeBron-less Cavs team? Definitely an inferior player to Hughes' contract year and Butler, that's for sure. 

Then factor in that Jamison is on the other side of his career (he just turned 34) and would not be playing with a guy who can feed him the ball in the post, much less taking offensive pressure off of him. 

Speaking of Williams, we've seen teams in Milwaukee where he was a significant player -- 30-52 in 2004-05; 40-42 in 2005-06; 28-54 in 2006-07; and 26-56 in 2007-08. And those were years playing with Michael Redd, who before his injuries arguably was a better overall player than Jamison. 

And those are your best players. The rest of Cleveland's roster possibly is worse than what Jamison had earlier in his career in Golden State (for a time, he played with Jason Richardson and a young Arenas) and Washington. The same holds true for Williams in Milwaukee. You seriously don't think teams are scared of people like Anthony Parker, Jamario Moon, Anderson Varejao and Delonte West, do you?

Take LeBron James off Cleveland's team and you're looking at somewhere between a 25- to 30-win roster. A team with an aging Jamison, Williams and a bunch of spare parts dealing with the psychological effects of losing LeBron is definitely a lottery team.


----------



## Duck

http://www.twitvid.com/IUFIK


----------



## BeeGee

Sir Patchwork said:


> I do just like to argue sometimes, but I feel some people have pre-existing agendas and were looking for a reason to write off LeBron. Nothing will change that.


I don't consider myself one of those people. I've always been a Lebron supporter, and will probably continue to be one. I'm simply calling this situation like I see it. I respect your opinion if you think it's all crap, but I don't. With any topic, there are vultures who take opportunity to sneeze on a player that they dislike for self-serving purposes. But there are also cats that are simply dropping their honest opinion on the situation/player(s) involved. It's all part of the deal.


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## E.H. Munro

76ersFan11 said:


> Beegee is right. Jamison a 19/8 player is a very good hybrid forward that actually had a breakout year before he was traded to Cleveland. I'd say he's a legitimate 2nd option, with Mo Williams being an excellent 3rd option.


Antawn Jamison 2010
Washington PER 17.5
Cleveland PER 16.7

Doesn't look like much of a production dropoff to me. Looks exactly like what you'd expect of a player going from a team where he got to fire away at will to one with more offensive options and more focused on winning than stat padding. Put another way, players that were OK in their prime are not "very good second options" in their mid 30s.



76ersFan11 said:


> So why did Cleveland fail? INTERIOR DEFENSE. There was none of it. Shaq should just retire, Big Z is a jumpshooting big man. Cleveland had nothing on the interior and that was exposed twice. By Hedo abusing Cleveland's bigs on the pick and roll and by KG attacking the Cavs inside. I imagine even Samuel Dalembert, would've made a big difference in Cleveland. In fact, given how that team went about it's business, having fun, etc. That suits Sam's personality. Hmm, what could've been if Cle were interested.


It was indeed a problem for them, but one without a solution due to bad cap management. They had one bullet in their gun and used it on Jamison. If they'd traded for Dalembert instead, their interior D would be marginally better, but offensively they would still have been praying that Mo Williams stopped being Mo Williams.


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## BeeGee

I that if he'd had a training camp and full season with Bron & co., Jamison would've been a much different story than the guy we saw, wandering the court trying to find his niche. Just speculation though.

Cleveland's problem is they were looking for a 1-year solution, instead of planning for the future (i.e. Shaq) with the thought in mind that there was no future if they didn't do enough in 09/10 to keep Lebron. I still think they put enough together to get it done, but it didn't happen and the franchise walked. Too little too late, so be it.


----------



## E.H. Munro

It all boils down to mismanagement. Paxson busted the draft after LeBron, let Boozer get away for nothing, and then traded away firsts for terrible role players (*cough* Jiri Welsch *cough*) in desperation to compensate. He even turned down deals that could have saved the team. In '04 he could have had the two picks in front of the one Sacramento used on Kevin Martin, any player not named Paul Pierce off Boston's roster and a future first for the pick he used on Luke Jackson. If he'd made that deal and picked up Martin he might still be running the Cavs and LeBron might still be there. 

Danny Ferry took over and immediately signed one of the worst free agent classes in NBA history. He didn't just sign one bust, he committed nigh on $100 million to players that were old (Donyell Marshall), or contract year heros waiting to bust (Larry Hughes, Damon Jones, et al). The Cadavaliers have only themselves to blame here. They could have cleaned house in the front office years ago. There was no way they couldn't know that Ferry was in completely over his head after signing Hughes, Jones & Marshall and trading for Flip Murray as a rebuilding plan. Christ, casual basketball fans knew that Ferry had no idea what he was doing.


----------



## Najee

E.H. Munro said:


> Antawn Jamison 2010
> Washington PER 17.5
> Cleveland PER 16.7
> 
> Doesn't look like much of a production dropoff to me. Looks exactly like what you'd expect of a player going from a team where he got to fire away at will to one with more offensive options and more focused on winning than stat padding. Put another way, players that were OK in their prime are not "very good second options" in their mid 30s.


That's why I don't get the argument about Antwan Jamison and Mo Williams. Jamison has never been more than an above-average player on mediocre to poor teams throughout his career. Williams has never been more than a decent player who has faded badly in the playoffs. You deliberately have to overrate them to make an argument about them somehow having a "letdown," because they basically are the same players they were in previous stops.


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## BeeGee

E.H. Munro said:


> It all boils down to mismanagement. Paxson busted the draft after LeBron, let Boozer get away for nothing, and then traded away firsts for terrible role players (*cough* Jiri Welsch *cough*) in desperation to compensate. He even turned down deals that could have saved the team. In '04 he could have had the two picks in front of the one Sacramento used on Kevin Martin, any player not named Paul Pierce off Boston's roster and a future first for the pick he used on Luke Jackson. If he'd made that deal and picked up Martin he might still be running the Cavs and LeBron might still be there.
> 
> Danny Ferry took over and immediately signed one of the worst free agent classes in NBA history. He didn't just sign one bust, he committed nigh on $100 million to players that were old (Donyell Marshall), or contract year heros waiting to bust (Larry Hughes, Damon Jones, et al). The Cadavaliers have only themselves to blame here. They could have cleaned house in the front office years ago. There was no way they couldn't know that Ferry was in completely over his head after signing Hughes, Jones & Marshall and trading for Flip Murray as a rebuilding plan. Christ, casual basketball fans knew that Ferry had no idea what he was doing.


Nice breakdown, E.H. Pretty much paints the picture. The Boozer thing... :nonono:


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## futuristxen

E.H. Munro said:


> It all boils down to mismanagement. Paxson busted the draft after LeBron, let Boozer get away for nothing, and then traded away firsts for terrible role players (*cough* Jiri Welsch *cough*) in desperation to compensate. He even turned down deals that could have saved the team. In '04 he could have had the two picks in front of the one Sacramento used on Kevin Martin, any player not named Paul Pierce off Boston's roster and a future first for the pick he used on Luke Jackson. If he'd made that deal and picked up Martin he might still be running the Cavs and LeBron might still be there.
> 
> Danny Ferry took over and immediately signed one of the worst free agent classes in NBA history. He didn't just sign one bust, he committed nigh on $100 million to players that were old (Donyell Marshall), or contract year heros waiting to bust (Larry Hughes, Damon Jones, et al). The Cadavaliers have only themselves to blame here. They could have cleaned house in the front office years ago. There was no way they couldn't know that Ferry was in completely over his head after signing Hughes, Jones & Marshall and trading for Flip Murray as a rebuilding plan. Christ, casual basketball fans knew that Ferry had no idea what he was doing.


You left out leaving Mike Brown in as coach after he proved that he was in over his head in the Finals against the Spurs. Or continuing to leave him in after failing against the Magic. Or forcing an offensive coordinator on him to run the offense.

To the end, Danny Ferry basically resigned because he STILL wanted Mike Brown.


----------



## kflo

1 - players move ALOT more today than they did in the days of stars past. it's not a very fair point. and alot of greats have changed teams.

2 - noone has built a legacy with the supporting cast lebron had in cle (not a winning one). noone. jordan's bulls won 55 games in '94 without him. holding lebron's cast up as "good enough" is silly when noone else has been able to bring a team like that anywhere. 

3 - lebron will play great. he's a ridiculous talent that will continue to play great. he'll continue to play at a level rarely seen. people can chose to recognize it or rationalize why it's less important or relevant than an individual decision he made at one point in time in his career. 

some want to hold him up to an unreasonable standard for whatever reason. typically to validate a view they've held in the past. 

hold a grudge if you want. that's fair. but he'll be great, and minimizing his play because of it isn't fair or justified.


----------



## Najee

Quick question: During the free agency courting of LeBron James, didn't Cleveland's reported sales pitch to LeBron consist of a "Family Guy"-type cartoon with inside jokes and a message on why he should come back to Cleveland? And wasn't that interview process with LeBron fairly short, compared to some teams spending considerably more time trying to woo him that weekend?

Given all the blunders this team made in acquiring other talent around him over the years, it seems to me the team with the most to lose in LeBron being a free agent should have put a little more elbow grease in its presentation.


----------



## futuristxen

Najee said:


> Quick question: During the free agency courting of LeBron James, didn't Cleveland's reported sales pitch to LeBron consist of a "Family Guy"-type cartoon with inside jokes and a message on why he should come back to Cleveland? And wasn't that interview process with LeBron fairly short, compared to some teams spending considerably more time trying to woo him that weekend?
> 
> Given all the blunders this team made in acquiring other talent around him over the years, it seems to me the team with the most to lose in LeBron being a free agent should have put a little more elbow grease in its presentation.


Yeah I said at the time that their presentation sounded like they were taking for granted that he was coming back, and if I'm a free agent, I might take offense to that, as enjoyable as it might have been.

I mean Pat Riley put Championship rings on the table, and you're just going to show a cartoon full of jokes, when i've said over and over that all I care about is winning?


----------



## Najee

futuristxen said:


> Yeah I said at the time that their presentation sounded like they were taking for granted that he was coming back, and if I'm a free agent, I might take offense to that, as enjoyable as it might have been.
> 
> I mean Pat Riley put Championship rings on the table, and you're just going to show a cartoon full of jokes, when i've said over and over that all I care about is winning?


Maybe there is some better context there, but considering this team screwed the pooch in getting talent around LeBron James the last thing I would have presented was a cartoon skit.

It doesn't seem like Cleveland had any contingency plan in case LeBron turned them down, either. Moreover, the team was constrained by the salary cap barring a team wanting to do a sign-and-trade, it has no young developing talent and it's done a terrible job in the draft -- so what vision could Cleveland sell LeBron to keep him there?


----------



## futuristxen

Looking at the Cavs moves so far, it STILL looks like they don't really have a plan.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Najee said:


> It doesn't seem like Cleveland had any contingency plan in case LeBron turned them down, either. Moreover, the team was constrained by the salary cap barring a team wanting to do a sign-and-trade, it has no young developing talent and it's done a terrible job in the draft -- so what vision could Cleveland sell LeBron to keep him there?


That was what Brian Shaw said about his interview with the Cadavaliers. He said he kept asking them what their plans were after James left and that the Cleveland people kept waving him off and telling him that it wouldn't happen.


----------



## HB

> Now everybody wanna play for the heat and the Lakers? Let's go back to being competitive and going at these peoples!


 - Kevin Durant


----------



## Jamel Irief

Najee said:


> Quick question: Where was this talent on Cleveland sans LeBron James that some people keep defending and rationalizing? Maybe it's me, but I get tired of hearing/reading that blanket statement of "They had the best record in the NBA, so LeBron couldn't have done it all by himself!"
> 
> For instance, Mo Williams was the Cavs' second best player. However, how many playoff-caliber teams would he enjoy a similar status (barring a trade of a player at the same position)? Of last year's playoff teams, I can see him being the third-best player for Charlotte and possibly even the No. 2 man in Miami. For all the other teams, the fourth-best player or worse. Even for teams like Memphis and Houston, he likely would be possibly the fourth-best player.
> 
> Seriously, I would LOVE to see Kobe Bryant try to win a title with a 38-year-old Shaq or the corpse that is Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Anderson Varejao is basically a lesser version of Joakim Noah. Jamario Moon and Anthony Parker are nondescript role players, and so is Delonte West. Antwan Jamison was a good player, but he looked lost in his short time with LeBron in Cleveland plus he is 34. I just see a lot of spare parts and bit players mostly with this team.


The problem I continue to have is that people that claim the Cavs talent was inferior are the same that picked them to win the championship each of the past two postseasons. The talent may have actually been sub-par, but nobody thought that would stop the King until it actually did.


----------



## 76ersFan11

Najee said:


> I don't know how a player in his 11th NBA season has a "breakout year," especially when Antwan Jamison's 2008-09 season was no different from his production the majority of his career at that point.
> 
> Jamison struggled to fit into Cleveland's offense, partially because of an unsettled rotation. Moreover, Jamison historically has been less effective offensively in the playoffs than in the regular season. He's not much of a passer and an even worse defender.
> 
> Also, look at Golden State's teams when Jamison was the best player on the squad. The best record the Warriors had was 38-44 in 2003-04 and a lot of those years were significantly worse than that. Even on those Washington teams with Gilbert Arenas having All-Star years with Jamison as the wingman, the best those Wizards teams did were 45-37 in 2004-05.
> 
> Mo Williams isn't nearly the player Arenas was during those Wizards teams, not to mention Washington also had Larry Hughes' contract year and Caron Butler as a third option. Who is the third best player on a LeBron-less Cavs team? Definitely an inferior player to Hughes' contract year and Butler, that's for sure.
> 
> Then factor in that Jamison is on the other side of his career (he just turned 34) and would not be playing with a guy who can feed him the ball in the post, much less taking offensive pressure off of him.
> 
> Speaking of Williams, we've seen teams in Milwaukee where he was a significant player -- 30-52 in 2004-05; 40-42 in 2005-06; 28-54 in 2006-07; and 26-56 in 2007-08. And those were years playing with Michael Redd, who before his injuries arguably was a better overall player than Jamison.
> 
> And those are your best players. The rest of Cleveland's roster possibly is worse than what Jamison had earlier in his career in Golden State (for a time, he played with Jason Richardson and a young Arenas) and Washington. The same holds true for Williams in Milwaukee. You seriously don't think teams are scared of people like Anthony Parker, Jamario Moon, Anderson Varejao and Delonte West, do you?
> 
> Take LeBron James off Cleveland's team and you're looking at somewhere between a 25- to 30-win roster. A team with an aging Jamison, Williams and a bunch of spare parts dealing with the psychological effects of losing LeBron is definitely a lottery team.



It goes to prove how much coaching makes a difference. For example, those Washington Wizards were headed by the worst coach in NBA History, Eddie Jordan. This is the same guy, when asked, if you need to preserve a lead, don't you go with defensive players?

Jordan's response. Your best offensive players have to be good defenders. That's not ME, that's a quote. "Brand isn't a 30 minute player" Brand proceeds to post 20-10 in 30 minutes when Sam went down.

Can't say Brand got those opportunities too often. One of the reasons for a "dissapointing" 13/6 year. Jordan was and is clueless among clueless. Any team he's coaching will AUTOMATICALLY suck or be mediocre by design.

He has no clue of a rotation. 1/5th into the NBA year, the team gave up learning the Princeton. Don't cite those Washington Wizards as a comparison. Mike Brown was bad yes, but at least he HAD a calling card. Jordan has NONE, at all.

Look at the Golden State Warriors RIGHT NOW. That team has been in a disarray for over a decade. You can't pin that horrible management and coaching and lack of a plan on Jamison. You just can't.


Now, no, Mo Williams, Anthony Parker, Delonte West, J.J Hickson, Jamario Moon and Anderson Varejao are NOT going to scare people. But guess what? They played a role. Mo was the off-the-ball shooter. West was a secondary ball handler/primary defensive guard. Hickson could score the post. Parker/Moon wing defenders. Varejao, post defense.

The SUM of the whole, are greater then the individual parts. This STILL holds true.

If Cleveland were to get a guy like Boris Diaw for example, and let's say they find some shotblocker. Chris Anderson comes to mind.

Diaw's no LeBron, but I think if you put Diaw back in a fast-paced, up-tempo offense which Byron Scott likes to run.

That team could make noise.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Najee said:


> Quick question: During the free agency courting of LeBron James, didn't Cleveland's reported sales pitch to LeBron consist of a "Family Guy"-type cartoon with inside jokes and a message on why he should come back to Cleveland? And wasn't that interview process with LeBron fairly short, compared to some teams spending considerably more time trying to woo him that weekend?
> 
> Given all the blunders this team made in acquiring other talent around him over the years, it seems to me the team with the most to lose in LeBron being a free agent should have put a little more elbow grease in its presentation.


He was with them 7 years. A hour or two of pitching wouldn't have deterred his decision either way.


----------



## PauloCatarino

kflo said:


> 1 - players move ALOT more today than they did in the days of stars past. it's not a very fair point. *and alot of greats have changed teams.*


Name them (and yes, i know about Snaq O'Meal).



> 2 - noone has built a legacy with the supporting cast lebron had in cle (not a winning one). noone. jordan's bulls won 55 games in '94 without him. holding lebron's cast up as "good enough" is silly when noone else has been able to bring a team like that anywhere.


Allen freaking Iverson?
(more about this comparison later)



> 3 - lebron will play great. he's a ridiculous talent that will continue to play great. he'll continue to play at a level rarely seen. people can chose to recognize it or rationalize why it's less important or relevant than an individual decision he made at one point in time in his career.


I guess this is something yet to be seen from Lebron. My bet is that his stats will drop a lot playing alongside Wade and Bosh. And if Wade is the go-to player on that team, Lebron's cred will fall a little...



> some want to hold him up to an unreasonable standard for whatever reason. typically to validate a view they've held in the past.


Not really, no.
What we, Cavs fans, view as "unreasonable", is Lebron James, "The Chosen One", deciding to leave the best regular season tem in the NBA to play patty-cake with other 2 superstars.
Heck, i would understand if he quitted to join a team like the Bulls or Knicks, wanting to play with a strong "second-fiddle" guy (Rose/Amar'e). But this is ridiculous. 

[QUOTE ]hold a grudge if you want. that's fair. but he'll be great, and minimizing his play because of it isn't fair or justified.[/QUOTE]

We will see how it pans out. And if the Heat do win. And if Lebron (not Wade) is to be the man behind it.


----------



## kflo

well, yes, shaq changed teams. kareem did. wilt did. oscar did. moses did. barkley. drexler. etc. 

there won't be 1 go-to-guy. they're not going to keep the ball out of lebron's hands. that's guaranteed. his stats will likely drop. but they'll be great, and he'll play great. just use your head. you KNOW he's capable of putting up whatever stats he wants. he'll be in a different situation. and he'll always still be the best player on the court.

he didn't just leave the best regular season team. he left a mediocre supporting cast. why can't you acknowledge that?


----------



## futuristxen

PauloCatarino said:


> What we, Cavs fans, view as "unreasonable", is Lebron James, "The Chosen One", deciding to leave the best regular season tem in the NBA to play patty-cake with other 2 superstars.


ahahahaha. What you Laker fans are scared of is that Lebron could potentially be even better than he's ever been, and win rings on top of that.


----------



## seifer0406

also KG, J-Kidd, Payton.

Like I said before, even Kobe wanted to leave at some point, I guess he changed his mind because he realized greats don't change teams, not because they got Pau Gasol, a star player to be his sidekick.



PauloCatarino said:


> What we, Cavs fans, view as "unreasonable", is Lebron James, "The Chosen One", deciding to leave the best regular season tem in the NBA to play patty-cake with other 2 superstars.
> Heck, i would understand if he quitted to join a team like the Bulls or Knicks, wanting to play with a strong "second-fiddle" guy (Rose/Amar'e). But this is ridiculous.


You think if at the end of that TV special Lebron announces that he's going to New York things would be different for the Cavs fans? Cavs fans were angry because of the way Lebron delivered the news, not his destination. He could've gone to the moon and people in Cleveland would hate the moon for the next decade. It wouldn't have mattered.



> I guess this is something yet to be seen from Lebron. My bet is that his stats will drop a lot playing alongside Wade and Bosh. And if Wade is the go-to player on that team, Lebron's cred will fall a little...


Lebron's scoring might go down (to the mid 20s) but his assist numbers would go up imo. Watching Lebron play pick and roll with Anderson Varejao had me pulling a Mel Gibson fit last year. Lebron could've averaged 10 assists last year easily if he had guys that could finish.

The guy who's stats will drop is Bosh. He's not going to get to go isolation for the entire game like he did in Toronto but he will make it up by being a good rebounder and defender.


----------



## jokeaward

HB said:


> - Kevin Durant


Payton: "Get a ring while you can, it's fun! Ray got one too. Phil Jackson and Pat Riley show no mercy! #oligarchy"


----------



## futuristxen

kflo said:


> well, yes, shaq changed teams. kareem did. wilt did. oscar did. moses did. barkley. drexler. etc.
> 
> there won't be 1 go-to-guy. they're not going to keep the ball out of lebron's hands. that's guaranteed. his stats will likely drop. but they'll be great, and he'll play great. just use your head. you KNOW he's capable of putting up whatever stats he wants. he'll be in a different situation. and he'll always still be the best player on the court.
> 
> he didn't just leave the best regular season team. he left a mediocre supporting cast. why can't you acknowledge that?


I think his stats will change. I don't think they'll drop. His efficiency should go through the roof, his defensive numbers should pick up, and his assist numbers should go up as well especially if he's the primary ball handler.


----------



## E.H. Munro

76ersFan11 said:


> If Cleveland were to get a guy like Boris Diaw for example, and let's say they find some shotblocker. Chris Anderson comes to mind.
> 
> Diaw's no LeBron, but I think if you put Diaw back in a fast-paced, up-tempo offense which Byron Scott likes to run.
> 
> That team could make noise.


True, they'd give the Nets & T'wolves a real run for their money in the Harrison Barnes sweepstakes.


----------



## E.H. Munro

PauloCatarino said:


> Allen freaking Iverson?
> (more about this comparison later)


True, when did LeBron ever lead a team to the NBA Finals...


----------



## Najee

Jamel Irief said:


> The problem I continue to have is that people that claim the Cavs talent was inferior are the same that picked them to win the championship each of the past two postseasons. The talent may have actually been sub-par, but nobody thought that would stop the King until it actually did.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall jumping on that bandwagon. I couldn't see any team with Mo Williams as its second-best player winning a championship, I don't care if the team's best player was the two-time league MVP.


----------



## Najee

Jamel Irief said:


> He was with them 7 years. A hour or two of pitching wouldn't have deterred his decision either way.


My point was it didn't seem like Cleveland put together a serious sales pitch, particularly since it was the one team LeBron James knew intimately -- and he can point out its bad personnel moves and ask, "What kind of vision do you have, considering your mess-ups? Why should I stay?" 

Even more telling is there really seems to be no direction or vision by the Cavs, not only in case it lost LeBron (which it did) but in the event he did leave. During and even after the LeBron era, this team seems largely clueless in putting together a team (see its pursuit of Kyle Lowry).


----------



## Najee

76ersFan11 said:


> Now, no, Mo Williams, Anthony Parker, Delonte West, J.J Hickson, Jamario Moon and Anderson Varejao are NOT going to scare people. But guess what? They played a role. Mo was the off-the-ball shooter. West was a secondary ball handler/primary defensive guard. Hickson could score the post. Parker/Moon wing defenders. Varejao, post defense.
> 
> The SUM of the whole, are greater then the individual parts. This STILL holds true.
> 
> If Cleveland were to get a guy like Boris Diaw for example, and let's say they find some shotblocker. Chris Anderson comes to mind.
> 
> Diaw's no LeBron, but I think if you put Diaw back in a fast-paced, up-tempo offense which Byron Scott likes to run.
> 
> That team could make noise.


It's definitely a lottery team, no doubt about it. It's ironic you named Boris Diaw; at best with hustle and teamwork, it could be the Charlotte Bobcats of 2010-11. But in a sense, that would be an insult to the Bobcats of 2009-10.

You have no primary player that can cause mismatches. Your most productive player historically is past his prime, and was never more than above average. The second-best offensive player is basically average and has a history of fading in the playoffs. As primary players, these two guys were on lottery teams to low-level playoff squads.

Not to mention to get Diaw, Cleveland would have to make a trade to get him. Not a whole lot of quality on that Cavs roster, and Diaw certainly is not worth giving up that $16 million trade exception. And does Cleveland really want Diaw with his 2 yr./$18 million contract?

I could be wrong, but this look like a team that will be watching ping pong balls in 2011.


----------



## 76ersFan11

Najee said:


> It's definitely a lottery team, no doubt about it. It's ironic you named Boris Diaw; at best with hustle and teamwork, it could be the Charlotte Bobcats of 2010-11. But in a sense, that would be an insult to the Bobcats of 2009-10.
> 
> You have no primary player that can cause mismatches. Your most productive player historically is past his prime, and was never more than above average. The second-best offensive player is basically average and has a history of fading in the playoffs. As primary players, these two guys were on lottery teams to low-level playoff squads.
> 
> Not to mention to get Diaw, Cleveland would have to make a trade to get him. Not a whole lot of quality on that Cavs roster, and Diaw certainly is not worth giving up that $16 million trade exception. And does Cleveland really want Diaw with his 2 yr./$18 million contract?
> 
> I could be wrong, but this look like a team that will be watching ping pong balls in 2011.


Your very wrong, infact, your so wrong I question if you've watched basketball these past 2 years. No, seriously, have you? I just explained it flat out to you and you STILL don't understand.



How is a guy that averaged 20/8 on 45% shooting(before trade) "below average". Care to answer? http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=385

Antawn Jamison, is an aggressive hybrid forward like few others, he's vastly superior to the 100 million dollar man in Orlando. 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=469

Like night and day. Only thing Shard has over Jamison is shooting from 3.

So, if Jamison is below average, prepare to say Shard is even worse 

2 things happened in the playoffs. Jamison was matched up with a defensive beast known as KG and Mike Brown's an idiot. There's a reason Mike Brown isn't hired.

Whether you like it or not, whether you even see it or not. A large component of the team that won 66 games remains in Cleveland. Now you got a year of training camp with Jamison and the guys, and you got this TALENT. That's right, 1 man can't win 66 games.


Boris Diaw is a 6'9 forward that can do it all. Rebound, he can make plays, he can even be a nice 4th option in the offense. A 2 year contract, isn't a bad contract at all. And at 9 million, I'd say if Diaw were to be in Cleveland, he'd be in a situation where he can play up to his contract.

So if you get Diaw, you get alot of the playmaking and versatility and
size back. And if you get some shot blockers in there, I'd say that team
can still be one of the best teams in the league.

Because it all fits. And this time, they don't have to kiss up to anybody. Now the Cavs can play for the Cavs.

All for one, and one for All. Byron Scott himself said, this was the best team he took over. And it's true. Those Nets and Hornets teams NEEDED CP3 and Kidd. Scott sees a team that has 8 very good pieces. And just needs a retooling to get back in the mix of things.


----------



## futuristxen

The main problem with Jamison is that Mike Brown never really incorporated him into the team offense. With Shaq coming back in the playoffs, and Z coming back, the Cavs seemed to have no idea of who to play when or how at the worst possible time. 

Jamison played well off of Lebron, and I think most of his assisted points came off Lebron. But there was nothing in the Cavs offense really run for him. They never really ran a post up for him. And I'm pretty sure he never knew all of the Cavs plays.

I chalk Jamison's troubles entirely down to poor player management.

He also was in a huge slump when he first got to the Cavs, and it took him a few months to get out of that.


----------



## seifer0406

I'm preparing, are you ready?

Here it is.















Psych!


Rashard Lewis is worse than Antawn Jamison.

Ask Orlando who they rather have I'm sure most people either pick Jamison or thinks they're a wash. Just because he's paid max dollars (Which most at this point feels he has one of the worst contracts in the league) doesn't make him a better player. If Lebron had Rashard Lewis as his sidekick we would still be sitting here having the same conversation. They're just as bad(as 2nd player on a championship team), only that Lewis can maintain his game for a few more years because he's younger.

Lewis also had a pathetic playoff run and was one of the many reasons why Orlando almost got swept by the Celtics. If Orlando didn't pull out that OT win in game 4 Lewis would've averaged like 6 points for the entire series.


----------



## Blue

Lewis had the flu, but at least he somewhat contained KG in the series... Antwan got dominated on both ends of the court, so no i definitely wouldn't trade Twan for Lewis. And i'll give Lewis a pass cuz he has proven himself in the past, and for the 10 minutes we played him @ the 3, he played well against Pierce. For some reason, SVG insists on forcing him back in @ the 4 where he was struggling, to make more room for a worthless Barnes and VC... 

I didn't understand it. We have Bass on the bench, just slide Lewis to the 3 where he had 3 20ppg seasons and scoring at will against Pierce! Play Bass and Gortat more the 4. It's so easy. Tired of this stupid small ball, Lewis is a 3. Use his versatility instead of wasting him and we'll be fine.


----------



## E.H. Munro

76ersFan11 said:


> How is a guy that averaged 20/8 on 45% shooting(before trade) "below average". Care to answer?


Because he's a 6'8" 34 year old PF that plays no defense.



76ersFan11 said:


> Antawn Jamison, is an aggressive hybrid forward like few others, he's vastly superior to the 100 million dollar man in Orlando.


Of course Luke Walton is a great player, just look at Peja Stojakovic!!!


----------



## futuristxen

Why is everyone fixating on Jamison, again? Lebron played like less than 20 games with him going into the playoffs. Hardly a sample size. I think if Lebron had stayed they would have proven a deadly combo. But Jamison's lack of ability on the defensive end is something you can't have when you're competing for a championship, and that's why he's never been on a team that's gone deep into the playoffs.

As for how the Cavs will be next year, if they keep their roster in tact, they could be a borderline playoff team out East. They were held back by Mike Brown a fair deal, and there are scorers on that team for Scott to take advantage of.

I'm surprised no one has really thought about the possibility of a Heat-Cavs first round series, and how completely insane that would be.


----------



## Najee

76ersFan11 said:


> Your very wrong, infact, your so wrong I question if you've watched basketball these past 2 years. No, seriously, have you? I just explained it flat out to you and you STILL don't understand.
> 
> How is a guy that averaged 20/8 on 45% shooting(before trade) "below average". Care to answer? http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=385


You sound like someone trying to pick a fight. First of all, I didn't say Antwan Jamison was a below-average player. I said the following:



Najee said:


> You have no primary player that can cause mismatches. Your most productive player historically is past his prime, and was never more than above average.


When you learn how to read -- which I understand is a skill taught in elementary school -- then we can talk.



76ersFan11 said:


> Antawn Jamison, is an aggressive hybrid forward like few others, he's vastly superior to the 100 million dollar man in Orlando.
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=469


The fact you have to go to a Rashard Lewis to make an argument -- a similar caliber player who also has shown a history of being no more than a complementary player in Seattle and Orlando, who like Jamison is a soft defender who has a history of underperforming in the playoffs -- should emphasize how weak your argument is.

The reality is I wouldn't want Lewis or Jamison to be the primary offensive weapon on my team. That seems to be the point you're missing. You actually are trying to make the argument a team with a 34-year-old Jamison as its primary weapon "can make some noise," even though we've seen the result of those type of teams from the bulk of Jamison's 13-year career.

Jamison is not garbage; at his best, he was the type of player who was a solid No. 3 option. But anything more than that, and it's been on lottery teams and low-level playoff teams. And now he's at the point where he definitely won't get better and likely will start declining.


----------



## PauloCatarino

kflo said:


> well, yes, shaq changed teams. kareem did. wilt did. oscar did. moses did. barkley. drexler. etc.


You said players move a lot more *today*.
You provided examples from the past. 



> there won't be 1 go-to-guy. they're not going to keep the ball out of lebron's hands. that's guaranteed. his stats will likely drop. but they'll be great, and he'll play great. just use your head. you KNOW he's capable of putting up whatever stats he wants. he'll be in a different situation. and *he'll always still be the best player on the court*.


That remains to be seen.
What we've seen so far was Lebron playing in a system that enhanced his amazing abilities. To get the ball all the time, to do whatever he wanted to with it.
I'm looking forward to see how his game meshed with Wade's.
Bosh, i agree with the poster that said should suffer more, stat-wise.



> he didn't just leave the best regular season team. *he left a mediocre supporting cast*. why can't you acknowledge that?


Because i don't agree with that claim.
Could Lebron's supporting cast be better? Obviously.
Did it stink? No.
One can argue if the rest of my team's players were the best suited to play around Lebron (like, say, the bunch of role players Iverson led to the Finals). But saying that, talent-wise, they were mediocre would be incorrect, IMHO.


----------



## Najee

futuristxen said:


> Why is everyone fixating on Jamison, again? Lebron played like less than 20 games with him going into the playoffs. Hardly a sample size. I think if Lebron had stayed they would have proven a deadly combo. But Jamison's lack of ability on the defensive end is something you can't have when you're competing for a championship, and that's why he's never been on a team that's gone deep into the playoffs.


It's not that people are calling Antwan Jamison a bad player, either. It's just that we've seen him in the role of a team's top player and it's usually one that's watching ping-pong balls in the hopper. He's not impactful enough of a player to be the focus, and now he is 34 you really can't expect that to fly against what we have seen over his career.

He is basically a Rashard Lewis-level player, namely a good option if he is your third-best player and he is paired with a player like a LeBron James. If he's the team's fourth-best option, Jamison is an excellent choice. But I certainly wouldn't want Jamison to be the best player or the strong No. 2 man on my team.


----------



## PauloCatarino

futuristxen said:


> ahahahaha. What you Laker fans are scared of is that Lebron could potentially be even better than he's ever been, and win rings on top of that.


Not really, no.
All i want is to see my teams (LA, Cleveland) WIN. I don't GAF about individual play. I typically only comment on players if i see they are been treated unfairly (wether by overhyping or dissing) or making fools out of themselves.
Unless the Lakers acquire another superstar in the next 3 years (i have my doubts about Bynum's development and Gasol's ability to be a franchise player), that's the span of time i see the Lakers contending for the championship. 
In that period of time, i see the Lakers winning more championships than the Heat.


----------



## futuristxen

PauloCatarino said:


> One can argue if the rest of my team's players were the best suited to play around Lebron (like, say, the bunch of role players Iverson led to the Finals). But saying that, talent-wise, they were mediocre would be incorrect, IMHO.


They were not mediocre. But they were also poorly coached, and for the most part not talented enough to overcome that gap of talent they had to the Celtics, Lakers, and Magic in the playoffs.


----------



## Najee

futuristxen said:


> The main problem with Jamison is that Mike Brown never really incorporated him into the team offense. With Shaq coming back in the playoffs, and Z coming back, the Cavs seemed to have no idea of who to play when or how at the worst possible time.
> 
> Jamison played well off of Lebron, and I think most of his assisted points came off Lebron. But there was nothing in the Cavs offense really run for him. They never really ran a post up for him.


I agree with all of that, but that is not the argument right now. The argument is do you want Antwan Jamison to be the No. 1 option (or co-billing No. 1 option) on your team, given we all have seen how that movie ends.


----------



## Najee

PauloCatarino said:


> One can argue if the rest of my team's players were the best suited to play around Lebron (like, say, the bunch of role players Iverson led to the Finals). But saying that, talent-wise, they were mediocre would be incorrect, IMHO.


I'm sorry, but didn't LeBron James actually take a team with a similar makeup to the NBA Finals in 2007? You know, that team that had Larry Hughes as his wingman?


----------



## Theonee

> A different discussion had played out within the NBA and USA Basketball: What should we do with LeBron?
> 
> From Team USA coach Mike Krzyzewski to managing director Jerry Colangelo to NBA elders, the issue of James’ immaturity and downright disrespectfulness had become a consuming topic on the march to the Olympics. The course of history could’ve changed dramatically, because there was a real risk that James wouldn’t be brought to Beijing based on fears his monumental talents weren’t worth the daily grind of dealing with him.
> 
> When the mandate had been to gather these immense egos and get the NBA’s greatest players to fit into a program, no one had a more difficult time meshing into the framework than James. Other players made it a point to learn the names of staffers and modestly go about their business without barking orders and brash demands.
> 
> No one could stand James as a 19-year-old in the 2004 Athens Olympics, nor the 2006 World Championships. Officials feared James could become the instigator of everything they wanted to rid themselves for the ’08 Olympics.
> 
> For as gifted as James was, Krzyzewski and Colangelo subscribed to a belief that with Kobe Bryant(notes) joining the national team in 2007, they could win a gold medal in ’08 with or without LeBron James. Behind the scenes, officials had taken to calling James’ inner circle, “The Enablers.” No one ever told him to grow up. No one ever challenged him. And yet, James was still a powerful pull for his teammates, and everyone had to agree they could no longer let his bossy and belittling act go unchecked. These weren’t the Cleveland Cavaliers, and Team USA wasn’t beholden to him.
> 
> After the NBA witnessed the behavior of James and his business manager Maverick Carter during the 2007 All-Star Weekend, the commissioner’s office sent word to USA Basketball the league wouldn’t force James on them for the Olympics.
> 
> Before Team USA gathered for the 2007 Tournament of the Americas in Las Vegas, an unmistakable message had been delivered to James through Nike: Unless you change, we’re serious about leaving you home.
> 
> “Legacies were on the line,” one league official said, “and they weren’t going to let LeBron [expletive] it up for everyone in China.”
> 
> Through Nike, James ultimately heeded the message and became more tolerable to coaches, teammates and staff. Team USA assigned Jason Kidd(notes) to babysit him at the Tournament of the Americas in 2007, to try to teach him something the Cavaliers never had a veteran to do: professionalism.





> When James returned to the Cavaliers, the franchise hoped that he had grown, matured and maybe learned some lessons. Only James understood the angles and leverage he had in Cleveland. Every day, owner Dan Gilbert and general manager Danny Ferry wondered: What must we do to get him to re-sign in 2010?
> 
> What will make him happy?
> 
> The answer, as the Cavaliers eventually discovered, was nothing. James lived to make demands, but those with knowledge of his plans insist he never intended to re-sign with the Cavaliers.
> 
> One week after James joined Wade and Bosh in Miami to potentially alter the NBA’s balance of power for years, Yahoo! Sports has shaped a story of how events unfolded in the free-agent frenzy of 2010 based on interviews with several sources who were either involved in or have direct knowledge of the process.
> 
> Within an hour of the Cavaliers’ season ending in Boston, James’ inner circle, including power broker William Wesley, agent Leon Rose and business manager Maverick Carter, stood outside the visiting locker room grumbling about coach Mike Brown.
> 
> James had wanted Brown gone a year earlier after the Cavs lost in the Eastern Conference finals to the Orlando Magic – despite Brown guiding Cleveland to 66 victories while winning the league’s Coach of the Year award. Ferry debated Gilbert to keep Brown. He won out, but Ferry knew it would be tough to make that case again in 2010. Every decision the Cavaliers made had to be run past James. He didn’t always get to decide, but he had to be consulted.


More here.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Asisw0B7dxxElRE6rxc2p.C8vLYF?slug=aw-heatfreeagency071610


----------



## kflo

PauloCatarino said:


> You said players move a lot more *today*.
> You provided examples from the past.


they were 2 separate points. players move alot more today. that's a fact, obviously. and goat caliber players did switch teams in the past. that's also a fact. 




PauloCatarino said:


> That remains to be seen.
> What we've seen so far was Lebron playing in a system that enhanced his amazing abilities. To get the ball all the time, to do whatever he wanted to with it.
> I'm looking forward to see how his game meshed with Wade's.
> Bosh, i agree with the poster that said should suffer more, stat-wise.


any system he plays in will be built around his abilities. you'd be foolish not to build around his abilities.



PauloCatarino said:


> Because i don't agree with that claim.
> Could Lebron's supporting cast be better? Obviously.
> Did it stink? No.
> One can argue if the rest of my team's players were the best suited to play around Lebron (like, say, the bunch of role players Iverson led to the Finals). But saying that, talent-wise, they were mediocre would be incorrect, IMHO.


i didn't say they stunk. i said they were mediocre. which they were. certainly mediocre in the context of supporting teams that others have led to titles. and even mediocre in the context of the current league. certainly mediocre compared to kobe's team. or the celts. or relative to some options he had in free agency.


----------



## PauloCatarino

kflo said:


> they were 2 separate points. players move alot more today. that's a fact, obviously. and goat caliber players did switch teams in the past. that's also a fact.


Alrighty then. 



> any system he plays in will be built around his abilities. you'd be foolish not to build around his abilities.


Unless you got a player like Dwyane Wade already on board. 
we will see how it pans out. But i don't see this as Lebron James' Amusement Park anymore...



> i didn't say they stunk. i said they were mediocre. which they were. certainly mediocre in the context of supporting teams that others have led to titles.


I know what you said.
And i reiterate that's not a "mediocre" roster. Not by a longshot. 
A "mediocre" roster would be the likes of Smush Parker/Lamar Odom/Kwame Brown/Chris Mihm.



> and even mediocre in the context of the current league. certainly mediocre compared to kobe's team. or the celts. or relative to some options he had in free agency.


Sub-par? Yes.
Mediocre? No.

And if it wasn't for Lebron's game 5 quitting, don't you think that team would have had a good chance to get into the Finals?


----------



## 76ersFan11

Najee said:


> It's not that people are calling Antwan Jamison a bad player, either. It's just that we've seen him in the role of a team's top player and it's usually one that's watching ping-pong balls in the hopper. He's not impactful enough of a player to be the focus, and now he is 34 you really can't expect that to fly against what we have seen over his career.
> 
> He is basically a Rashard Lewis-level player, namely a good option if he is your third-best player and he is paired with a player like a LeBron James. If he's the team's fourth-best option, Jamison is an excellent choice. But I certainly wouldn't want Jamison to be the best player or the strong No. 2 man on my team.


Uh, he's vastly superior to Shard. Not similar in anyway shape or form. One is a spot-up jump shooter. The other can actually attack the post. I thought we went over the Eddie Jordan Effect, or did that also slip past your mind? 

Let's put it this way: That Cavs team won 66 games the prior year. 61 last year. Let's take away 19 games. 61-19=42, 66-19=47.

This team, without LeBron James is a playoff team. How many Kevin Garnett's are there in the NBA? There are very few who play with KG's intensity on the defensive end.


----------



## Game3525

I am sorry but Jamison is garbage, the guy doesn't seem to have any impact on the game what so ever.


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## OneBadLT123

kflo said:


> *well, yes, shaq changed teams. kareem did. wilt did. oscar did. moses did. barkley. drexler. etc. *
> 
> there won't be 1 go-to-guy. they're not going to keep the ball out of lebron's hands. that's guaranteed. his stats will likely drop. but they'll be great, and he'll play great. just use your head. you KNOW he's capable of putting up whatever stats he wants. he'll be in a different situation. and he'll always still be the best player on the court.
> 
> he didn't just leave the best regular season team. he left a mediocre supporting cast. why can't you acknowledge that?


I dont understand the point you are trying to make... You need to compare apples to apples here

Of all those players you just listed, every singe one of them were traded during their primes except Shaq (another NBA prima donna) which I think was the only real legendary superstar in memory in their prime to leave via free agency.

Sure, they may have asked to be traded, but in the end they did what was in the best interest for them AND the team. 

Unlike a certain King who just **** on the league, team and the fans while making him look like a buffoon on TV


----------



## Adam

^Moses wasn't traded. He chose to go play with Dr. J. And why do people keep saying "forget Shaq" or "besides Shaq?" You don't get to just dismiss points that refute your argument.


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## seifer0406

I fail to see the difference between asking to be traded and then traded with leaving through FA. The thought process is the same, "I can't win here so I'm going to a place where I can win."

If we're going to split hairs we can do it. I mean, technically Lebron was traded. The Cavs signed him and then traded him. It was in the best interest of both parties. Cavs got a pick and TPE, Lebron got an extra year.


----------



## Nevus

OneBadLT123 said:


> Unlike a certain King who just **** on the league, team and the fans while making him look like a buffoon on TV


I can understand Cleveland fans being upset, but how does this affect the entire league? A player chooses to exercise his right to leave in free agency, and somehow he is disgracing the entire league? Come on.


----------



## E.H. Munro

OneBadLT123 said:


> I dont understand the point you are trying to make... You need to compare apples to apples here
> 
> Of all those players you just listed, every singe one of them were traded during their primes except Shaq (another NBA prima donna) which I think was the only real legendary superstar in memory in their prime to leave via free agency.


Moses Malone wasn't traded, he left via free agency.



OneBadLT123 said:


> Sure, they may have asked to be traded, but in the end they did what was in the best interest for them AND the team.


There is no universe in which trading Kareem was "best for the Bucks".


----------



## kflo

OneBadLT123 said:


> I dont understand the point you are trying to make... You need to compare apples to apples here
> 
> Of all those players you just listed, every singe one of them were traded during their primes except Shaq (another NBA prima donna) which I think was the only real legendary superstar in memory in their prime to leave via free agency.
> 
> Sure, they may have asked to be traded, but in the end they did what was in the best interest for them AND the team.
> 
> Unlike a certain King who just **** on the league, team and the fans while making him look like a buffoon on TV


lol. they used what they could in their era to change their circumstances that they were unhappy with. they all had the same motivations.


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## Mr. Hobbes

Nevus said:


> I can understand Cleveland fans being upset, but how does this affect the entire league? A player chooses to exercise his right to leave in free agency, and somehow he is disgracing the entire league? Come on.


You heard about Chris Paul and Carmelo trying to get on a team together. Lebron is setting a precedent of stars all getting together on certain teams. Drives the gap between the good and bad teams wider.

The salary cap is an incentive, preventing too much talent on a few teams and poor talent on many other teams. If players are so rich of endorsements that they don't care about taking less money, it's defeating the purpose of the cap. Especially when attractive cities start accumulating talent, leaving the small market teams barren and terrible. 

This is good for Miami, and good for TV ratings. Bad for fans of most teams in the league.


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## seifer0406

Chan said:


> You heard about Chris Paul and Carmelo trying to get on a team together. Lebron is setting a precedent of stars all getting together on certain teams. Drives the gap between the good and bad teams wider.
> 
> The salary cap is an incentive, preventing too much talent on a few teams and poor talent on many other teams. If players are so rich of endorsements that they don't care about taking less money, it's defeating the purpose of the cap. Especially when attractive cities start accumulating talent, leaving the small market teams barren and terrible.
> 
> This is good for Miami, and good for TV ratings. Bad for fans of most teams in the league.


If you're going to blame the idea of 3 stars joining forces shouldn't you be blaming the Celtics? If you think about it they are the ones that started this whole thing.

It's silly really. If this is bad for the league then it's up to the league to set rules to prevent it. Even if Lebron going to Miami ends up "ruining the league", the league's salary rules should be the one to blame and not the players. If you're going to prevent guys from jumping teams you need to give the home team a bigger advantage in keeping the stars. That's up to Stern and his people, not Lebron and his friends.


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## Mr. Hobbes

seifer0406 said:


> If you're going to blame the idea of 3 stars joining forces shouldn't you be blaming the Celtics? If you think about it they are the ones that started this whole thing.
> 
> It's silly really. If this is bad for the league then it's up to the league to set rules to prevent it. Even if Lebron going to Miami ends up "ruining the league", the league's salary rules should be the one to blame and not the players. If you're going to prevent guys from jumping teams you need to give the home team a bigger advantage in keeping the stars. That's up to Stern and his people, not Lebron and his friends.


They were traded. Past their prime. You could say that about the Fab 4 Lakers, where Payton and Malone were relics by then. Lebron is 25.

The league set rules that assumes every player would want to maximize their profit. The salary cap is based on economics. What Lebron is doing is unprecedented, because there has never been this much talent signed to a team thru FA. There was nothing Stern could have done to keep Lebron in Cleveland, because he was a FA. What rule would you set to prevent someone who's willing to take less money to get what he wants? A fine?


----------



## seifer0406

Chan said:


> They were traded. Past their prime. You could say that about the Fab 4 Lakers, where Payton and Malone were relics by then. Lebron is 25.


Yet the Celtics had a dominating season and won a championship. The exact thing that the guys down in Miami are trying to do. I'd say the comparison between Lebron and KG is more justified than comparing Malone and Payton. Lebron didn't jump on the Wade bandwagon, he was the bandwagon.



> The league set rules that assumes every player would want to maximize their profit. The salary cap is based on economics. What Lebron is doing is unprecedented, because there has never been this much talent signed to a team thru FA. There was nothing Stern could have done to keep Lebron in Cleveland, because he was a FA. What rule would you set to prevent someone who's willing to take less money to get what he wants? A fine?


Players have taken less money in order to win in the past. What Lebron did wasn't "Unprecedented", those 3 guys aren't even the only ones to do it this summer. Dirk took less money to stay in Dallas, Hedo gave up about 15 mil to get out of Toronto. Players give up money to go places all the time. Besides the disgusting TV special, theres nothing that Lebron did this summer that hasn't been done before.

However, with that said, the league can still increase the incentives for players to stay with their home team. They can increase the amount of years that the home team can sign the player for as well as the per year increase. Or even eliminate the sign&trade all together. There are plenty of things that the league can do if they feel that stars changing teams is ruining the league.

But at the end of the day if a guy is determined to go somewhere there will and should be a way for him to do it. Just because Lebron did it by throwing away money doesn't mean it's going to start a revolution where everyone just starts taking less money. If that's your fear, I'd say you're jumping the gun on this and I'd suggest you wait until Melo actually goes to the Hornets to start worrying about this trend taking off.


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

seifer0406 said:


> Yet the Celtics had a dominating season and won a championship. The exact thing that the guys down in Miami are trying to do. I'd say the comparison between Lebron and KG is more justified than comparing Malone and Payton. Lebron didn't jump on the Wade bandwagon, he was the bandwagon.
> 
> Players have taken less money in order to win in the past. What Lebron did wasn't "Unprecedented", those 3 guys aren't even the only ones to do it this summer. Dirk took less money to stay in Dallas, Hedo gave up about 15 mil to get out of Toronto. Players give up money to go places all the time. Besides the disgusting TV special, theres nothing that Lebron did this summer that hasn't been done before.
> 
> However, with that said, the league can still increase the incentives for players to stay with their home team. They can increase the amount of years that the home team can sign the player for as well as the per year increase. Or even eliminate the sign&trade all together. There are plenty of things that the league can do if they feel that stars changing teams is ruining the league.
> 
> But at the end of the day if a guy is determined to go somewhere there will and should be a way for him to do it. Just because Lebron did it by throwing away money doesn't mean it's going to start a revolution where everyone just starts taking less money. If that's your fear, I'd say you're jumping the gun on this and I'd suggest you wait until Melo actually goes to the Hornets to start worrying about this trend taking off.


It's unprecedented because somebody as good and as young as Lebron is going to play with a proven winner. Regarding what the league can do, per year increase, amount of years etc are all money incentives. Doesn't work if a player isn't making decisions based on money. The S&T didn't have to happen for Lebron to sign to Miami because they have cap space.

Well the reports are saying Carmelo and Paul have something set up. It makes sense because they know they can't beat the Heat without some kind of partnering up. Hasn't happened yet since they're not FAs yet, but if they want to beat Miami it's what they'll have to do. They make much more off endorsements than salaries anyway.


----------



## 76ersFan11

Wade=Won with an over the hill Shaq.

LeBron= Nil. 

Wade>Bron


----------



## seifer0406

Chan said:


> It's unprecedented because somebody as good and as young as Lebron is going to play with a proven winner. Regarding what the league can do, per year increase, amount of years etc are all money incentives. Doesn't work if a player isn't making decisions based on money. The S&T didn't have to happen for Lebron to sign to Miami because they have cap space.
> 
> Well the reports are saying Carmelo and Paul have something set up. It makes sense because they know they can't beat the Heat without some kind of partnering up. Hasn't happened yet since they're not FAs yet, but if they want to beat Miami it's what they'll have to do. They make much more off endorsements than salaries anyway.


I don't see how age have anything to do with what we were talking about earlier, which is taking less money and going against the system. Like I said, if a guy is going to do something theres only so much the league can do to stop him. However, that doesn't mean the league can't make it harder for a guy to move. There are things that they can do and they're not doing it because they don't find this kind of movement harmful for the league.

Chris Paul still has 2 years left on his contract. If the guy decides to leave New Orleans the fans should blame their incompetent FO for signing guys like Peja and trading Chandler for Okafor. If New Orleans still suck 2 years down the road they should be rebuilding ANYWAY. I don't know about you, if I'm David Stern I'd much rather the best point guard of the league and one of the most exciting players in the world be playing in the playoffs rather than sitting at home. I mean, we're talking about ruining the league, that's ruining the league right there. If Melo/Paul together can create some great basketball theres more good than bad that will come out of it.


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

seifer0406 said:


> I don't see how age have anything to do with what we were talking about earlier, which is taking less money and going against the system. Like I said, if a guy is going to do something theres only so much the league can do to stop him. However, that doesn't mean the league can't make it harder for a guy to move. There are things that they can do and they're not doing it because they don't find this kind of movement harmful for the league.
> 
> Chris Paul still has 2 years left on his contract. If the guy decides to leave New Orleans the fans should blame their incompetent FO for signing guys like Peja and trading Chandler for Okafor. I don't know about you, if I'm David Stern I'd much rather the best point guard of the league be playing in the playoffs rather than sitting at home. If Melo/Paul together can create some great basketball theres more good than bad that will come out of it.


Age matters- Lebron as a 25 yr old has much more upside and value than Lebron as a 35 yr old. The combined value of Lebron's age and talent makes him the premier player in FA.

About how this affects the league--the fans of small market teams are the ones who get screwed. If anything, Stern would let this happen because it brings better TV ratings. Lack of parity in a league doesn't really hurt the league's profits, but it hurts most teams who aren't part of the lucky few. As a fan, knowing your team isn't beating Miami for the next 6 years means less incentive to buy tickets. 

Nothing Stern could have done would have prevented Lebron from doing this. If Carmelo and Paul want to take less money to play together, Stern can't stop that either. You can't make a FA stay. 

If talents start accumulating on a few select teams, the NBA prospers from ratings and the select teams get more sales. Most other teams are negatively impacted, and the fans of most teams in the league will be negatively impacted.


----------



## Cris

> What does a $110 million contract buy a person these days?
> 
> Apparently a lot of house.
> 
> A real lot of house.
> 
> Life & Style is reporting that LeBron James, who recently signed a six-year, $110 million deal with the Miami Heat, has started the paperwork to buy a $49.5 million mansion in the most expensive portion of Coral Gables, Fla. The home was once owned by Pat Riley, and was taken off the market shortly after "The Decision."
> 
> The home is the most expensive in Coral Gables, according to Life & Style, and features:
> 
> * eight bedrooms and 11 bathrooms;
> 
> * 880 feet of waterfront;
> 
> * a master suite with a full gym;
> 
> * a private guest suite with its own tennis court and courtyard on an acre of land.
> 
> * a 150-foot dock
> 
> Taxes are about $1 million per year, with an additional $150,000 price tag for utilities. South Florida auto magnate Alan Potamkin owns the home, and he has listed the home for $49.5 million.
> 
> Life & Style reports it's a "slam dunk" the home will soon belong to James.
> http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/07/17/...-coral-gables-home/?ncid=txtlnkusspor00000002


Must be nice


----------



## E.H. Munro

Chan said:


> It's unprecedented because somebody as good and as young as Lebron is going to play with a proven winner.


The 26 year old Moses Malone walked out on the Houston Rockets to go play center for the defending Eastern Conference champions.


----------



## Blue

Chan said:


> It's unprecedented because somebody as good and as young as Lebron is going to play with a proven winner.


I wouldn't say a talented young player going to a proven winner is unprecedented... Miami isn't even a proven winner really. It's just the top 1&2 wing players, statistically speaking, linking up in their prime...? I've never seen that. I've seen some big man/guard duo's... Ive seen a budding star join a fading star(or vice-versa) duo's... I've seen duo's develop through the draft... Ive never seen the top 1&2 wing players link up in their prime...


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

^Wade led his team to a ring. This isn't one of those situations where a big goes to play with a wing to try and get a great inside-out combo, which has been done many times. It's a superstar wing playing with another superstar wing. Remember the guy on the wing is going to be the instigator of every play; the primary option when the game is on the line. Lebron is giving that role to Wade.


----------



## seifer0406

Chan said:


> Age matters- Lebron as a 25 yr old has much more upside and value than Lebron as a 35 yr old. The combined value of Lebron's age and talent makes him the premier player in FA.
> 
> About how this affects the league--the fans of small market teams are the ones who get screwed. If anything, Stern would let this happen because it brings better TV ratings. Lack of parity in a league doesn't really hurt the league's profits, but it hurts most teams who aren't part of the lucky few. As a fan, knowing your team isn't beating Miami for the next 6 years means less incentive to buy tickets.
> 
> Nothing Stern could have done would have prevented Lebron from doing this. If Carmelo and Paul want to take less money to play together, Stern can't stop that either. You can't make a FA stay.
> 
> If talents start accumulating on a few select teams, the NBA prospers from ratings and the select teams get more sales. Most other teams are negatively impacted, and the fans of most teams in the league will be negatively impacted.


Like I said, age does matter in value but it wasn't what we were discussing. We were talking about players taking less money to go places and I'm saying Lebron isn't the first to do so.

This small market team bs apparently doesn't apply to Lebron. You know that New York and Chicago lost to Miami right? I don't know if you've been to New York, it's a pretty big city, some might say it's a lot bigger than Miami.

Lebron chose Miami because of the opportunity to play with Wade/Bosh, I'm sure he likes the city but it wasn't the main factor in his decision making. Miami's salary space, Pat Riley, Wade were the reasons why Lebron chose to go there.



> If talents start accumulating on a few select teams, the NBA prospers from ratings and the select teams get more sales. Most other teams are negatively impacted, and the fans of most teams in the league will be negatively impacted.


While this may be true, people often times overlook the circumstances that lead to stars changing teams. Lebron wouldn't have left Cleveland had the Cavs FO been competent enough to build a championship team around him. God knows he doesn't want to share the spotlight with 2 other players if it's up to him. The same thing goes to Bosh. If Toronto didn't mess up their team by making dumb moves he would much rather stay there and be the man than go down to Miami and be the forgotten man. The moral here is if you want to keep your star player, try not to **** up your roster and make it seem impossible for your star to win. Instead of worrying about your star wanting to follow in Lebron's footsteps, try to build a winning team now to win him over. Stop trading Chandler for Okafor and stop drafting Luke Jackson and signing Larry Hughes. It's easy to place all the blame on the players and make it "Their decision" to move on when in fact how they got there often times isn't their fault.


----------



## kflo

Chan said:


> ^Wade led his team to a ring. This isn't one of those situations where a big goes to play with a wing to try and get a great inside-out combo, which has been done many times. It's a superstar wing playing with another superstar wing. Remember the guy on the wing is going to be the instigator of every play; the primary option when the game is on the line. Lebron is giving that role to Wade.


wade led his team to a ring 4 years ago. they haven't seen the 2nd round since.

lebron hasn't given anything to wade yet. they're teammates, and both will be primary options. it's not like wade has this great team that lebron is joining. they're both on a gutted team with alot of new pieces.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

LeBron isn't giving anything to Wade. Wade isn't going to insist that he get the ball everytime and LeBron isn't going to just defer and become a spot up shooter like some think. They'll both be what they are, top 3 players. If LeBron outperforms Wade all year and for years to come, it would take a nice chunk of hate to deny that the Heat became LeBron's team. And with Wade approaching his 30's, it's very possible that Wade slips into a Pippen role in the next couple years.


----------



## futuristxen

A good comparison for this would be like if Larry Bird at 25 joined up with a 28 year old Clyde Drexler and 26 year old Jack Sikma. But Bird had been drafted by the Warriors or something, and Drexler had already won a title with the Blazers, and Sikma had been killing grizzly bears in vancouver.


----------



## tone wone

The Celtics in the summer of '07 were more established than this heat team. Its really a blank canvas. The playing style, offensive & defensive philosophy & overall team personality isn't in the least bit established. 

Its so strange because if they were in New York or New Jersey we wouldn't be hearing any of this nonsense about Lebron taking a backseat to Wade.


----------



## Game3525

futuristxen said:


> A good comparison for this would be like if Larry Bird at 25 joined up with a 28 year old Clyde Drexler and 26 year old Jack Sikma. * But Bird had been drafted by the Warriors or something*, and Drexler had already won a title with the Blazers, and Sikma had been killing grizzly bears in vancouver.


No, Lebron's supporting cast wasn't that bad. A better comparison would be a 25 year old Jordan leaving the Bulls to play with Magic and Lakers in 1988.


----------



## Adam

tone wone said:


> The Celtics in the summer of '07 were more established than this heat team. Its really a blank canvas. The playing style, offensive & defensive philosophy & overall team personality isn't in the least bit established.
> 
> Its so strange because if they were in New York or New Jersey we wouldn't be hearing any of this nonsense about Lebron taking a backseat to Wade.


The Heat were a 47 win team and a top 3 defense. We're replacing Quentin Richardson with LeBron and Michael Beasley with Bosh.



Game3525 said:


> No, Lebron's supporting cast wasn't that bad. A better comparison would be a 25 year old Jordan leaving the Bulls to play with Magic and Lakers in 1988.


LeBron is going to the weaker team not the better team.


----------



## futuristxen

Game3525 said:


> No, Lebron's supporting cast wasn't that bad. A better comparison would be a 25 year old Jordan leaving the Bulls to play with Magic and Lakers in 1988.


That doesn't work because Wade isn't better than Lebron, or as good as Magic. And the Heat are a worse team than the Cavs.

It would be like Jordan leaving the Bulls in 1989 to go play with Clyde Drexler and Jack Sikma in New Jersey.

Chris Bosh is Jack Sikma. That's what I'm trying to say.


----------



## Game3525

futuristxen said:


> *That doesn't work because Wade isn't better than Lebron, or as good as Magic.* And the Heat are a worse team than the Cavs.
> 
> It would be like Jordan leaving the Bulls in 1989 to go play with Clyde Drexler and Jack Sikma in New Jersey.
> 
> Chris Bosh is Jack Sikma. That's what I'm trying to say.


By 1988, Jordan was better then Magic. It does work because it is two alpha dogs on similar levels playing with eachother, and one of the two has won a championship.


----------



## Adam

futuristxen said:


> That doesn't work because Wade isn't better than Lebron, or as good as Magic. And the Heat are a worse team than the Cavs.
> 
> It would be like Jordan leaving the Bulls in 1989 to go play with Clyde Drexler and Jack Sikma in New Jersey.
> 
> *Chris Bosh is Jack Sikma*. That's what I'm trying to say.


Bad comparison IMO.

Also, Wade is much better than Clyde and LeBron is not as good as Jordan.

This is two comparable guys, one with a slight edge, teaming up. It's Magic and Bird playing together. LeBron as Magic and Wade as Bird.


----------



## futuristxen

Don't let Paolo hear you say that by 88 Magic was worse than Jordan.


----------



## BG7

Blue Magic said:


> I wouldn't say a talented young player going to a proven winner is unprecedented... Miami isn't even a proven winner really. It's just the top 1&2 wing players, statistically speaking, linking up in their prime...? I've never seen that. I've seen some big man/guard duo's... Ive seen a budding star join a fading star(or vice-versa) duo's... I've seen duo's develop through the draft... Ive never seen the top 1&2 wing players link up in their prime...


Jordan and Pippen?


----------



## E.H. Munro

futuristxen said:


> Don't let Paolo hear you say that by 88 Magic was worse than Jordan.


It's no better letting me hear it. This is one of the few things that Paolo's right about, even though it's accidentally. Had Utah not traded that #1 for Adrian Dantley he'd argue till he was blue in the face that "(Un)Magic & Ole' Baldy were nothing compared to Wilt!!!!"


----------



## E.H. Munro

BG7 said:


> Blue Magic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say a talented young player going to a proven winner is unprecedented... Miami isn't even a proven winner really. It's just the top 1&2 wing players, statistically speaking, linking up in their prime...? I've never seen that. I've seen some big man/guard duo's... Ive seen a budding star join a fading star(or vice-versa) duo's... I've seen duo's develop through the draft... Ive never seen the top 1&2 wing players link up in their prime...
> 
> 
> 
> Jordan and Pippen?
Click to expand...

Please, everyone knows that Scottie Pippin was just a poor man's Gerald Wallace. :baseldance:


----------



## Nevus

BG7 said:


> Jordan and Pippen?


So, does anybody think that LeBron/Wade > Jordan/Pippen?

Nobody ever diminished Jordan's accomplishments because of the fact that he played with Scottie Pippen. We all accept that, as great as Jordan was, it is a team game and no man can do it all by himself.

Does that not apply here? Are LeBron & Wade just *too* good?


----------



## PauloCatarino

E.H. Munro said:


> It's no better letting me hear it. This is one of the few things that Paolo's right about, even though it's accidentally. Had Utah not traded that #1 for Adrian Dantley he'd argue till he was blue in the face that "(Un)Magic & Ole' Baldy were nothing compared to Wilt!!!!"


You know, Munro, you kinda suck at your "new" role as the agitator. That's R-Star's job. And he does it much better than you. Sorry, old bones.

Oh, and learn to spell names, wil you???


----------



## PauloCatarino

Game3525 said:


> *By 1988, Jordan was better then Magic*. It does work because it is two alpha dogs on similar levels playing with eachother, and one of the two has won a championship.


By 1988, Jordan was no better than Buck or the Hick from French Lick.


----------



## Dre

Nevus said:


> So, does anybody think that LeBron/Wade > Jordan/Pippen?
> 
> Nobody ever diminished Jordan's accomplishments because of the fact that he played with Scottie Pippen. We all accept that, as great as Jordan was, it is a team game and no man can do it all by himself.
> 
> Does that not apply here? Are LeBron & Wade just *too* good?


That's my whole thing? Is Wade so much better than Pippen that this doesn't compare?

And I know off the bat I'd rather have Dennis Rodman than Chris Bosh, offense be damned.


----------



## Jakain

Nevus said:


> So, does anybody think that LeBron/Wade > Jordan/Pippen?
> 
> Nobody ever diminished Jordan's accomplishments because of the fact that he played with Scottie Pippen. We all accept that, as great as Jordan was, it is a team game and no man can do it all by himself.
> 
> Does that not apply here? Are LeBron & Wade just *too* good?


Dennis Rodman > Chris Bosh as well.

EDIT: Agreed with Dre!


----------



## Blue

BG7 said:


> Jordan and Pippen?


See, 'developed through the draft'. 

The Bulls drafted Pippen and developed him w/ Jordan. Plus, Pippen was never a top 2 player in any season, anyway... Statistically, Wade has already been a top 2 player 2 years in a row. Let's not forget about Bosh. Another top 10 player on the team...


----------



## PauloCatarino

Nevus said:


> So, does anybody think that LeBron/Wade > Jordan/Pippen?


Yes. Lebron and Wade, *on paper *> Jordan an Pippen.



> *Nobody ever diminished Jordan's accomplishments because of the fact that he played with Scottie Pippen*. We all accept that, as great as Jordan was, it is a team game and no man can do it all by himself.


Yup. It has happened.



> Does that not apply here? Are LeBron & Wade just *too* good?


Let's put it this way: regardless of what happens in the future (as in, if the Wade/Lebron association really works), on talent alone they are better tahn the MJ/Pippen duo.


----------



## kflo

Adam said:


> Bad comparison IMO.
> 
> Also, Wade is much better than Clyde and LeBron is not as good as Jordan.
> 
> This is two comparable guys, one with a slight edge, teaming up. It's Magic and Bird playing together. LeBron as Magic and Wade as Bird.


well, bird did win 3 mvp's before magic had any.

and jordan / lebron is certainly a legit comparison. certainly the jordan looking for his first ring.


----------



## BG7

Blue Magic said:


> See, 'developed through the draft'.
> 
> The Bulls drafted Pippen and developed him w/ Jordan. Plus, Pippen was never a top 2 player in any season, anyway... Statistically, Wade has already been a top 2 player 2 years in a row. Let's not forget about Bosh. Another top 10 player on the team...


Yeah. But just looking through the allstar teams from some of the Bulls championship years, it's not too hard to argue that Jordan/Pippen were the best two wing players in the league. And you said that that was unprecedented.


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

kflo said:


> wade led his team to a ring 4 years ago. they haven't seen the 2nd round since.
> 
> lebron hasn't given anything to wade yet. *they're teammates, and both will be primary options. * it's not like wade has this great team that lebron is joining. they're both on a gutted team with alot of new pieces.


Haha. "No there's 2 #1s. They're both Batman. They're Batmen."


----------



## OneBadLT123

Adam said:


> ^Moses wasn't traded. He chose to go play with Dr. J. And why do people keep saying "forget Shaq" or "besides Shaq?" You don't get to just dismiss points that refute your argument.


WTF are you talking about? Moses WAS traded. The Rockets as a team were going into rebuilding mode as all the veterans such as Murphy, and Tomjonovich were retiring. The Rockets elected not to keep him while informing him if he stayed they would trade him. Once he chose to sign with the Sixers, the Rockets exercised their right of first refusal and matched the offer then traded him to the Sixers for Caldwell Jones and a first round pick.

And what are you blabbing about Shaq for in my quote? Well its true, out of the players listed, he left via free agency. 



E.H. Munro said:


> Moses Malone wasn't traded, he left via free agency.


No, read above...



Nevus said:


> I can understand Cleveland fans being upset, but how does this affect the entire league? A player chooses to exercise his right to leave in free agency, and somehow he is disgracing the entire league? Come on.


It wasn't the fact that he left via free agency, he has that right. But the way he did it was a slap in a face to the league. Believe it or not, it did damage public/media perception of the NBA as a whole.


----------



## Dre

Why are you acting like NBA teams run the same play every time down the court Chan.

LeBron will be the primary ballhandler, but they'll both have the same amount of opportunities to be the primary option on any individual play.


----------



## Nevus

I can't wait to see this team in action. LeBron and Wade are two of the scariest guys in the league for opposing defenses. LeBron has never had a teammate that opposing teams had to fear to any significant degree.

But Wade is an assassin. This is going to be fun. Who do you guard?


----------



## Dre

Not to mention Bosh will get his little nights too.


----------



## seifer0406

Nevus said:


> I can't wait to see this team in action. LeBron and Wade are two of the scariest guys in the league for opposing defenses. LeBron has never had a teammate that opposing teams had to fear to any significant degree.
> 
> But Wade is an assassin. This is going to be fun. Who do you guard?


I think the only way you defend the Heat is to play a lot of zone and force them to shoot outside shots. You're obviously not going to be able to guard those 2 single coverage and if you try to double you'll be in rotation hell.

Basically you try to force Lebron and Wade to be shooters and hope that Bosh doesn't have a big night. With all the attention that Lebron and Wade gets Bosh sort of becomes the wild card in this offense.


----------



## Blue

BG7 said:


> Yeah. But just looking through the allstar teams from some of the Bulls championship years, it's not too hard to argue that Jordan/Pippen were the best two wing players in the league. And you said that that was unprecedented.


No, i said the two top wing players *linking up* is unprecedented. My stance against this has always been these are the two best players in the league though, not just that they're the best wing players. The fact that they're both wing just makes it worse, imo. The two best players in the league, have just linked up. This is like a prime Jordan teaming up with Bird and Barkley or something... I have never seen that. 

You're changing my words tho, cause I specifically went out of my way to say similar duo's have formed through the draft. A big-big duo of Duncan/Robinson, or a wing-wing duo of MJ/Pippen are the obvious examples for why I would say that... You're chosing to ignore that for some reason. :thinking2: Either way, Wade is better than Pippen statistically anyway. A top 2 player. Something Pippen never was.


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

Dre™ said:


> Why are you acting like NBA teams run the same play every time down the court Chan.
> 
> LeBron will be the primary ballhandler, but they'll both have the same amount of opportunities to be the primary option on any individual play.


Every basketball team has one leader. Even with an inside-out combo, there's a pecking order. Much less for 2 wings.


----------



## BG7

seifer0406 said:


> I think the only way you defend the Heat is to play a lot of zone and force them to shoot outside shots. You're obviously not going to be able to guard those 2 single coverage and if you try to double you'll be in rotation hell.
> 
> Basically you try to force Lebron and Wade to be shooters and hope that Bosh doesn't have a big night. With all the attention that Lebron and Wade gets Bosh sort of becomes the wild card in this offense.


The key to defending the Heat will be to clog the lane and set for the charge. What Scott Skiles was running with the Bulls a few years ago with Nocioni, Wallace, and PJ Brown (which gave Wade a lot of trouble in the playoffs actually) is the way attack this team defensively.


----------



## Dre

Wade might be the vocal leader and all that intangible mumbo jumbo but LeBron is the best player on that team.

If we're seeing the big picture, that LeBron is going to be the de facto Point Guard whereas Wade will be the primary scorer we'd see that they're both the priorities on the offensive end.

All that one player stuff is nonsense. If you watch a basketball game you'd see that there's potential for two primary offensive options. Like I said basketball teams don't run the same play every time down. Shaq and Kobe are the prime example. And don't give me that post-wing vs. wing-wing thing, an offensive option is just that if you really understand basketball.


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

Kobe 1, Kobe 2, Shaq 3rd. That's a quote form somewhere.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Dre™ said:


> All that one player stuff is nonsense. If you watch a basketball game you'd see that there's potential for two primary offensive options. Like I said basketball teams don't run the same play every time down. Shaq and Kobe are the prime example. And don't give me that post-wing vs. wing-wing thing, an offensive option is just that if you really understand basketball.


It's funny because at any other level of basketball, this concept is understood. Nobody holds it against the two top recruits in the nation for going to the same college. Nobody doubts their ability to play together. This stuff is just twisted for some reason. James and Wade will be fine, and the Heat have really filled out their roster nicely.


----------



## f22egl

Chan said:


> Every basketball team has one leader. Even with an inside-out combo, there's a pecking order. Much less for 2 wings.


No. Some teams actually play team ball like the 2004 Pistons or the 2008 Celtics.


----------



## Game3525

f22egl said:


> No. Some teams actually play team ball like the 2004 Pistons or the 2008 Celtics.


Billups was the leader of the 04 Pistons, and Pierce was/is the Captain of the Celtics.


----------



## Wade County

You could call any of Billups/Hamilton/Sheed/Big Ben the best players on the 04 Pistons. Likewise with Pierce and Garnett in the 08 Celtics.


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

Nope. Why you think they give Finals MVPs.


----------



## Wade County

In the Finals series, yeah they were their teams best players.

Over the course of a season Garnett was considered the Celtics best player and the main source behind their vaunted defense.


----------



## Dre

They could alternate MVPs for 6 years and noone would bat an eye. You're really not supporting your argument too well :sarcasm:


----------



## Mr. Hobbes

Sure, if you need rebounding and interior defense. Lebron isn't going to dominate at that from the wing. 'The man' was always Pierce, always Billups.


----------



## Dre

You're just saying that from a "big moment" perspective, which is largely derived from wing players consistently having the ball during late game, iso situations. That's an awfully simplistic and limited view of the situation. 

Rasheed's post up ability, Ben's help defense, Rip's dominance of the midrange..all nuts and bolts that contributed nearly equally to their efforts to win basketball games.

On the Celtics Garnett's status as defensive anchor, and the multitalented big man who changed the dynamic of that offense made him just as important as Pierce and his timely shots.

The same will happen in Miami. Irregardless of who has the final shot and gets the post game interview, Wade and LeBron's maximum production are equally essential to the Heat winning games.

To act like the most important player on a team solely hinges upon who takes a final shot is a limited view on what it takes to win basketball games.


----------



## E.H. Munro

OneBadLT123 said:


> WTF are you talking about? Moses WAS traded.


No, he wasn't. He left as a free agent. The reason the Rockets got the flotilla of crap (Caldwell Jones and the pick they wasted on one of the McRay twins) was that in those days there were compensation rules for lost free agents. If the teams involved couldn't reach an agreement on compensation then an arbitrator made the decision for them. This was how Boston ended up with M.L. Carr and the #1 pick that they turned into Robert Parish & Kevin McHale. McAdoo signed with the Pistons as a free agent and Carr & the draft pick were the compensation. Moses wasn't coming back, Houston was aware of it ahead of time.


----------



## kflo

Chan said:


> Every basketball team has one leader. Even with an inside-out combo, there's a pecking order. Much less for 2 wings.


they haven't played a game yet, and you're aware of the pecking order? 

you're inventing a black and white situation where one isn't necessary.


----------



## kflo

Chan said:


> Sure, if you need rebounding and interior defense. Lebron isn't going to dominate at that from the wing. 'The man' was always Pierce, always Billups.


"the man" is an invention. it didn't matter if magic or kareem was "the man".


----------



## thaKEAF

Just got done putting in work at my high school. Great workout! Headed to pilates class now 
5:07 PM Jul 15th via UberTwitter 



> And the streets say Jigga can't go back home
> You know when I heard that? When I was back home


----------



## futuristxen

I would argue Scottie Pippen was the leader of the Bulls teams.

I think with the Heat Lebron is going to the leader on the floor, but Wade is going to be the guy who holds everything together off the floor.


----------



## Game3525

futuristxen said:


> *I would argue Scottie Pippen was the leader of the Bulls teams*.
> 
> I think with the Heat Lebron is going to the leader on the floor, but Wade is going to be the guy who holds everything together off the floor.


:funny:

No, he wasn't.


----------



## futuristxen

Game3525 said:


> :funny:
> 
> No, he wasn't.


Talk to anyone who was on one of those teams, particularly in the second three peat. His teammates HATED Jordan. Just despised him. Pippen was the guy who was like "c'mon guys we need to focus".

Look at what Pippen did in Portland vs. Jordan in Washington. Jordan was never a leader. He tried to lead by example. But for the most part was more into his own stuff than trying to incorporate his teammates. Always a knock on Jordan.


----------



## BG7

Wade County said:


> You could call any of Billups/Hamilton/Sheed/Big Ben the best players on the 04 Pistons. Likewise with Pierce and Garnett in the 08 Celtics.


Ben Wallace was by far the best player on the 04 Pistons. It wasn't even really close.


----------



## Game3525

futuristxen said:


> Talk to anyone who was on one of those teams, particularly in the second three peat. His teammates HATED Jordan. Just despised him. Pippen was the guy who was like "c'mon guys we need to focus".
> 
> Look at what Pippen did in Portland vs. Jordan in Washington. Jordan was never a leader. He tried to lead by example. But for the most part was more into his own stuff than trying to incorporate his teammates. Always a knock on Jordan.


Jordan was the leader, he was the guy they feared. They didn't fear Pippen what so ever, it is dumb to even think Pip was the leader on the Bulls, because by all acounts he wasn't.


----------



## BG7

futuristxen said:


> Talk to anyone who was on one of those teams, particularly in the second three peat. His teammates HATED Jordan. Just despised him. Pippen was the guy who was like "c'mon guys we need to focus".
> 
> Look at what Pippen did in Portland vs. Jordan in Washington. Jordan was never a leader. He tried to lead by example. But for the most part was more into his own stuff than trying to incorporate his teammates. Always a knock on Jordan.


Come on. Pippen was a 13/5/5 player in Portland. Jordan was like a 21/6/5 player in Washington.

A 23 year old Richard Hamilton was the only other good player on the Wizards in 01-02. Jerry Stackhouse/Larry Hughes were the only redeemable players on the 02-03 Wizards team.

Those Wizards teams that Jordan were on were complete crap. Teams could just completely focus on doubling Jordan because they didn't really have much of a three point threat (Just Rip the first year...and the rest of the team was garbage) and no post threat.

Put the 38-40 year old Jordan on that Portland team in 99-00 with Sheed, Stoudemire, Steve Smith, Sabonis, Wells, etc. and I think the Lakers would have one less championship. 

Jordan took a talentless Wizards team to the cusp of the playoffs twice.


----------



## BG7

I'm going to go watch some Ultimate Jordan to wash off the dirtiness of someone saying Jordan wasn't the leader of the Bulls.


----------



## Najee

futuristxen said:


> I would argue Scottie Pippen was the leader of the Bulls teams.


I have heard a lot of ridiculous comments on this site since I have been a member -- including one person who said Mike Tyson never assaulted anyone outside of the boxing ring -- but this actually may be the most ridiculous one of them all.


----------



## Adam

The same people who put Kevin Durant or Deron Williams ahead of Wade on ranking lists, say that Clyde Drexler was better, or say that he isn't a top three player in the current NBA are using the analogy of "Jordan calling up Bird and Magic." ****ing hypocrits. Now all of a sudden he's a great player. When he was stuck on a bad team he wasn't even top 5 (in the current NBA no less) for you guys.


----------



## jericho

BG7 said:


> Ben Wallace was by far the best player on the 04 Pistons. It wasn't even really close.


I think Billups is the other player in the discussion - and he's the guy who was actually mentioned in the MVP debates that season. He played good defense, spaced the floor, didn't foul or turn the ball over much, and was a terrific playmaker and floor general. He shot and made significant numbers of both 3s and FTs, with ridiculous efficiency. In my opinion, he quietly put up one of the best seasons from any PG in the past decade.


----------



## Najee

Ben Wallace was seventh in league MVP voting in 2004. Chauncey Billups was fifth in MVP voting in 2006.

The Pistons from 2003-04 through 2005-06 was a team made up of five above-average to borderline all-star level players. While not one player was dominant superstar-type player, the Pistons' starting five was balanced to there wasn't an obvious weakness in the unit.


----------



## JerryWest

Adam said:


> The same people who put Kevin Durant or Deron Williams ahead of Wade on ranking lists, say that Clyde Drexler was better, or say that he isn't a top three player in the current NBA are using the analogy of "Jordan calling up Bird and Magic." ****ing hypocrits. Now all of a sudden he's a great player. When he was stuck on a bad team he wasn't even top 5 (in the current NBA no less) for you guys.


Dude, you need to stop making stuff up. Go to this link before you ramble up about your imagined disrespect against Wade: http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-forum/443572-top-10-players-league.html

There are 20 pages of posts. *Good luck finding 3 people that have Deron Williams above Wade*.

Wade's general ranking was between 2 and 6. He was generally considered in the same tier as LeBron, Kobe, Paul, Durant and Howard. He is clearly in the top 6, which put him clearly above players like Deron Williams, Melo, Dirk, etc.

Most lists I saw had
1) LeBron

2) Kobe or Wade or Paul or Durant
3) Kobe or Wade or Paul or Durant
4) Kobe or Wade or Paul or Durant
5) Kobe or Wade or Paul or Durant

Dwight Howard also popped up between 3 and 5 for a handful of lists.


----------



## futuristxen

BG7 said:


> Come on. Pippen was a 13/5/5 player in Portland. Jordan was like a 21/6/5 player in Washington.


Remind me. How far did Washington go in the playoffs? Oh yeah. They didn't even make them.

Portland meanwhile went to something called the Western Conference Finals. Get out your playoff tree instead of your statistics book. Look at that.

Pippen was never about the stats. And if you don't think he was the real thing that held the Bulls together, particularly in the second three peat, you just flat out are a new jack who was too young back in those days to know what you were watching.

Here's another quiz, what's the farthest that Michael Jordan has gone in the playoffs without Scottie Pippen?
What's the farthest Pippen made it without Jordan?

Scottie Pippen was the guy who the rest of the team liked and listened to. He was the good cop that allowed Jordan to play bad cop. I can't believe this is an arguement right now.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

futuristxen said:


> Scottie Pippen was the guy who the rest of the team liked and listened to. He was the good cop that allowed Jordan to play bad cop. I can't believe this is an arguement right now.


Pippen wasn't the *the* leader, but they were definitely partners in leadership. Jordan's fear tactics would have failed miserably if not for Pippen stepping and making things right. Good cop bad cop is exactly what it was. 

I also often think players get too much credit/responsibility when it comes to leadership. The real leader of almost any team is the coach. So Phil also played a big leadership role.


----------



## Game3525

futuristxen said:


> Remind me. How far did Washington go in the playoffs? Oh yeah. They didn't even make them.
> 
> Portland meanwhile went to something called the Western Conference Finals. Get out your playoff tree instead of your statistics book. Look at that.
> 
> Pippen was never about the stats. And if you don't think he was the real thing that held the Bulls together, particularly in the second three peat, you just flat out are a new jack who was too young back in those days to know what you were watching.
> 
> *Here's another quiz, what's the farthest that Michael Jordan has gone in the playoffs without Scottie Pippen?
> What's the farthest Pippen made it without Jordan?*
> 
> Scottie Pippen was the guy who the rest of the team liked and listened to. He was the good cop that allowed Jordan to play bad cop. I can't believe this is an arguement right now.


Now your just being stupid, Pip played on much better teams then Mike did in his early days. Pippen was never the leader of the Bulls, it was always Jordan. He was the guy they feared, they may have liked Scottie better but Jordan was the guy they listen too and respected more.


----------



## Dre

Sir Patchwork said:


> Pippen wasn't the *the* leader, but they were definitely partners in leadership. Jordan's fear tactics would have failed miserably if not for Pippen stepping and making things right. Good cop bad cop is exactly what it was.
> 
> I also often think players get too much credit/responsibility when it comes to leadership. The real leader of almost any team is the coach. So Phil also played a big leadership role.


Yeah that aspect is kind of overrated. At the most "the leader" is the guy who steps a guy to the side and gives him advice on how to guard somebody or something, or the guy who tells everyone to relax in the timeout. 

People automatically coalesce leadership with being the best player or taking the final shot. Basketball ability and interpersonal skills are mutually exclusive.


----------



## BG7

Najee said:


> Ben Wallace was seventh in league MVP voting in 2004. Chauncey Billups was fifth in MVP voting in 2006.
> 
> The Pistons from 2003-04 through 2005-06 was a team made up of five above-average to borderline all-star level players. While not one player was dominant superstar-type player, the Pistons' starting five was balanced to there wasn't an obvious weakness in the unit.


Ben Wallace was a legitimate superstar.

Ben Wallace's 03-04 season was the best defensive season in NBA history based on D-Rtg. His 2004 playoffs is tied with David Robinson's 2000 playoffs as the best defensive performance in NBA playoff history based on D-Rtg. (And Ben Wallace played in 23 games compared to David Robinson's 4 games, so he did it over a much longer time span). 

Ben Wallace was simply a dominating defensive presence in 03-04, and that is why the Pistons were able to win the championship more so than anything else. Obviously guys like Hamilton and Billups were important because Wallace can't score, but Wallace was the most important player on that team.


----------



## futuristxen

Point by point take down of the Wojo article that so many want to attach so much to:
http://www.warriorsworld.net/outside-look-at-wojnarowski’s-lebron-article/

By the end I wanted to shout "FATALITY!"


----------



## E.H. Munro

futuristxen said:


> Point by point take down of the Wojo article that so many want to attach so much to:
> http://www.warriorsworld.net/outside-look-at-wojnarowski’s-lebron-article/
> 
> By the end I wanted to shout "FATALITY!"


Yeah, the Wojo article was hideously written. I gave him a pass figuring that he wrote the thing in annoyance after James' defection to the Heat left him with egg on his face. Whenever you see an article with nothing but summations of quotes from anonymous sources it's usually because the writer doesn't want you to read the actual quotes or to know that their sources were the janitorial staff in some office.


----------



## Gilgamesh

futuristxen said:


> Remind me. How far did Washington go in the playoffs? Oh yeah. They didn't even make them.
> 
> Portland meanwhile went to something called the Western Conference Finals. Get out your playoff tree instead of your statistics book. Look at that.
> 
> Pippen was never about the stats. And if you don't think he was the real thing that held the Bulls together, particularly in the second three peat, you just flat out are a new jack who was too young back in those days to know what you were watching.
> 
> Here's another quiz, what's the farthest that Michael Jordan has gone in the playoffs without Scottie Pippen?
> What's the farthest Pippen made it without Jordan?
> 
> Scottie Pippen was the guy who the rest of the team liked and listened to. He was the good cop that allowed Jordan to play bad cop. I can't believe this is an arguement right now.


I hope you know that Pippen joined a Portland team that won 70% of its games the year before and had the 3rd best record in the league?

Before that he was on the Rockets with Hakeem, Clyde, and Barkley which lost in the first round.

Jordan joined a Wizards team that won 19 games the year before and before his injury weak East or not had them in the playoff hunt with a 26-21 record before the all-star break and MJ averaging 25.1 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 5.3 APG. That is 25-5-5 at 38 years old! Like someone else said his best teammate at the time was a 23 years old Rip. The starting lineup was a joke with Jahidi White, Popeye Jones and old Laettner, Chris Whitney and Courtney Alexander and Hubert Davis splitting time at 2. If Pippen was on this team post-Bulls it would probably win less than 15 games. If Pippen was 38 like Jordan they may not even sniff 10 wins.


----------



## futuristxen

I think you're underestimating Pippen.


----------



## Game3525

futuristxen said:


> I think you're underestimating Pippen.


No, you are just overrating him. That Wizard's team wouldn't be in the playoffs with Pip.


----------



## Dre

What's your point? Who's really worth a damn at 38? And let's not forget Mike took two years off basically.


----------



## Gilgamesh

Dre™ said:


> What's your point? Who's really worth a damn at 38? And let's not forget Mike took two years off basically.


As much as people want to knock MJ for his Wiz days which makes sense when you compare those years to his iconic seasons with the Bulls but if you step back and don't judge the Wiz MJ like the Bulls MJ (which is an unreasonable expectation at 38 years old) he wasn't really a failure by normal standards. 25-5-5 at 38 after 2 years off and having a rubbish team (10 times rubbish to Lebron's Cavs that get too much BS IMO on this forum to excuse their playoff failures) before his injury is pretty damn good. Is there any other 38 year old who could that?

Comparing Pip's post-Bulls days to MJ's Wiz days makes no sense and when you think about if MJ was on the Blazers at 38 who knows maybe they win it all but I doubt Pip would amount to much with the Wiz not even talking about 38 but just his level of play post-Bulls.

As hard as MJ was on his teammates when he was playing at a high level he elevated their games and more importantly won. He may not have been the locker room buddy but he was clearly the leader by his competitive example. He also never took himself out of a crucial play when he didn't get the shot like Pippen...


----------



## futuristxen

Gilgamesh said:


> As much as people want to knock MJ for his Wiz days which makes sense when you compare those years to his iconic seasons with the Bulls but if you step back and don't judge the Wiz MJ like the Bulls MJ (which is an unreasonable expectation at 38 years old) he wasn't really a failure by normal standards. 25-5-5 at 38 after 2 years off and having a rubbish team (10 times rubbish to Lebron's Cavs that get too much BS IMO on this forum to excuse their playoff failures) before his injury is pretty damn good. Is there any other 38 year old who could that?


Lebron made the NBA finals with Larry Hughes. Jordan couldn't even make the playoffs


----------



## E.H. Munro

Gilgamesh said:


> As much as people want to knock MJ for his Wiz days which makes sense when you compare those years to his iconic seasons with the Bulls but if you step back and don't judge the Wiz MJ like the Bulls MJ (which is an unreasonable expectation at 38 years old) he wasn't really a failure by normal standards. 25-5-5 at 38 after 2 years off and having a rubbish team (10 times rubbish to Lebron's Cavs that get too much BS IMO on this forum to excuse their playoff failures) before his injury is pretty damn good. Is there any other 38 year old who could that?


I'm sorry, could you point out to me the other 20 p/g scorer that the Cavs had during LeBron's tenure their? Thanks in advance.


----------



## Gilgamesh

E.H. Munro said:


> I'm sorry, could you point out to me the other 20 p/g scorer that the Cavs had during LeBron's tenure their? Thanks in advance.


Are you kidding me? So you are saying what the Cavs who won 66 and 61 the last two years minus Lebron is a worse or even cast than the Wiz?

As old as Shaq was I would never dare say Jahidi White was better. Mo Williams was an all-star one year and better than Whitney and Lue combined. Big Z was 13 and 7.5 during the 66 win run.

Jamison cancels out Rip at 23. Let's not forget before coming to the Cavs, Jamison was putting up 20.5 PPG. 

There is your thanks.

I am a Lebron fan but all this BS about the team being absolute garbage is nothing but excuses to me. I remember before the playoff exits the last two years people were saying how they couldn't believe a team had better chemistry and complimenting his supporting cast even Mo during the 66 win season.


----------



## Game3525

And lets not forget one guy was 25, the other guy was 38.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Gilgamesh said:


> Are you kidding me? So you are saying what the Cavs who won 66 and 61 the last two years minus Lebron is a worse or even cast than the Wiz?


I'm pretty sure that I asked you a direct question. Jordan played with Rip Hamilton and Jerry Stackhouse before Stack's untimely demise. Legitimate 20 p/g guys that in fact averaged 20 p/g. Do you have an answer?


----------



## Gilgamesh

futuristxen said:


> Lebron made the NBA finals with Larry Hughes. Jordan couldn't even make the playoffs


Pretty sure Wiz wouldn't make the finals that year but they sure were on pace for the playoffs. Honestly I still can't believe a old ass MJ almost brought a 19 win team to the playoffs. Like I said, step back and don't compare to his iconic Bulls years (which rarely anyone can compare to) and actually his first year with the Wiz can't really be considered a failure other than his mishandling of Kwame of course but I think it is pretty much concluded that Kwame sucks with or without MJ now.


----------



## Gilgamesh

E.H. Munro said:


> I'm pretty sure that I asked you a direct question. Jordan played with Rip Hamilton and Jerry Stackhouse before Stack's untimely demise. Legitimate 20 p/g guys that in fact averaged 20 p/g. Do you have an answer?


Is Antawn not a legit 20 PPG guy? He may not have averaged 20 PPG with Lebron but is that your logic behind your what I sense you are trying to argue Lebron's Cavs team the last two years is worse or even to the MJ's Wiz team? Why don't you answer that. That is just plain excuses for their playoff exits. How can a team that wins 66 and 61 games be that bad? Yes Lebron is a one man show...


----------



## E.H. Munro

Gilgamesh said:


> Is Antawn not a legit 20 PPG guy? He may not have averaged 20 PPG but is that your logic behind your what I sense you are trying to argue Lebron's Cavs team the last two years is worse or even to the MJ's Wiz team? Why don't you answer that. That is just plain excuses for their playoff exits. How can a team that wins 66 and 61 games be that bad? Yes Lebron is a one man show...


Did Jamison average 20 p/g last year? In fact the answer is no, the 34 year old forward didn't average 20 last year.


----------



## Gilgamesh

E.H. Munro said:


> Did Jamison average 20 p/g last year? In fact the answer is no, the 34 year old forward didn't average 20 last year.


Was he not averaging 20.5 PPG before coming to the Cavs?

Did he not average 22.2 and 21.4 the two years before that?


----------



## Game3525

Jamison is a scrub, but he was averaging 20 a game prior to the trade.


----------



## Wade County

Not the point. As a Cav, Jamison was a 16 and 7 player.


----------



## Gilgamesh

Wade County said:


> Not the point. As a Cav, Jamison was a 16 and 7 player.


That doesn't make him not a legit 20 PPG player.

Antawn obviously didn't take as many shots as he did prior to the trade because he tried to complement Lebron. 

It's like KG. He could easily score 20 PPG the first year with the Celts. Ray Ray too.


----------



## Wade County

Lets not forget that Jamison was playing on a scrub-tacular Wizards squad that made Andray Blatche look like an All-Star when Jamison was traded.

Not saying Antawn can't score, but he didn't for the Cavs. As a complementary piece, he failed. He averaged 11 points in the Conference finals. On 42% shooting.

Mo Williams averaged 13 points on 40% shooting.

Shaq was the only guy who actually played OK, and even he was only at 13 and 7 in 25 minutes a game.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Wade County said:


> Lets not forget that Jamison was playing on a scrub-tacular Wizards squad that made Andray Blatche look like an All-Star when Jamison was traded.
> 
> Not saying Antawn can't score, but he didn't for the Cavs. As a complementary piece, he failed. He averaged 11 points in the Conference finals. On 42% shooting.
> 
> Mo Williams averaged 13 points on 40% shooting.
> 
> Shaq was the only guy who actually played OK, and even he was only at 13 and 7 in 25 minutes a game.


Do you want to know what I'm looking forward to? The usual suspects blaming the Cavs implosion not on the general mediocrity of the _teh ossum_ surrounding cast, but to the loss of Shaq & Igor. That's going to be a comedy goldmine like few others.


----------



## Seanzie

Time for the Cavs to move Varejao and Gibson, and tank on a two-year rebuilding plan. They should also pray for Harrison Barnes.


----------



## rocketeer

Wade County said:


> Shaq was the only guy who actually played OK, and even he was only at 13 and 7 in 25 minutes a game.


shaq didn't play ok. he was worthless on defense if he didn't block the shot and on offense he almost entirely scored points spoon fed to him by other guys that anyone else could have scored.


----------



## Wade County

Agreed - he wasn't great. Which goes to show why people saying he had a good supporting cast don't get that it wasn't a championship level supporting cast. It was a regular season team. Dallas Mavericks East. They win a lot of games and have nothing to show for it either.

Which 2nd banana stepped forward in the playoffs? Jamison? Mo Will? Shaq? Varejao?


----------



## PauloCatarino

E.H. Munro said:


> Do you want to know what I'm looking forward to? The usual suspects blaming the Cavs implosion not on the general mediocrity of the _teh ossum_ surrounding cast, but to the loss of Shaq & Igor. *That's going to be a comedy goldmine *like few others.


Like seeing you being owned by Gil in this thread?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

PauloCatarino said:


> Like seeing you being owned by Gil in this thread?


Munro is right. Arguing about their supporting cast is tedious. Let's just wait to see how this supposedly championship level supporting cast does next season without LeBron. Jordan's Bulls won 56, so it can be done.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Sir Patchwork said:


> Munro is right.


Dude is NEVER right. 



> Arguing about their supporting cast is tedious. Let's just wait to see how this supposedly championship level supporting cast does next season without LeBron. Jordan's Bulls won 56, so it can be done.


Does my team still have the best player in the NBA in any position? Is the Cav's rosterfilled with seasoned, championship-winners players?
Gess not.

What's "tedious" is the constant "Lebron James had no help" excuse that we've been hearing for severall years now.
I could swear many people around here havesn't played a single game of basketball in their lives, attesting the fact they are saying Lebron's teammates sucked. AGAIN: Lebron James didn't play against 5 opposing players for +82 games!

How many games a season would a starting 5 of, like, Derek Fisher/Ron HArper (Chicago)/Robert Horry (LA/SA)/AC Green/Ben Wallace (DET)win? 5, max? Yet, they were all valuable parts of championship teams.
Go figure...

And how many games would the Sixers win sans Iverson and with Snow/Lynch/Hill/Mutombo and, say, Pete Myers (even Mckie) as the starting unit?


----------



## Wade County

I didn't say they sucked. I said they were Dallas Mavericks East. Look nice in the regular season, go small in the playoffs.

Look at the stats from Jamison, Mo Will and Shaq in the playoffs 2nd round...nasty...


----------



## futuristxen

A big problem for the Cavs was Mike Brown. Not per se the talent. Which while not great, certainly wasn't put in great positions to win.


----------



## Wade County

Spoelstra is a good defensive coach, but it remains to be seen what he can implement offensively.

Last year, we ran almost exclusively pick and rolls and 'give it to Dwyane and get outta the way'. That's not gonna cut it this season - there's gotta be legitimate strategy.

I guess if all else fails, you run pick n roll with Wade and Bosh, or give it to Lebron for an iso or something.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

PauloCatarino said:


> What's "tedious" is the constant "Lebron James had no help" excuse that we've been hearing for severall years now.


Okay, moving away from the he had "no" help, I will say he had the least amount of help of any team in the playoffs. Take away the best player on every single team, and the Cavs are probably the 2nd worst outside of Miami. 



> How many games a season would a starting 5 of, like, Derek Fisher/Ron HArper (Chicago)/Robert Horry (LA/SA)/AC Green/Ben Wallace (DET)win? 5, max? Yet, they were all valuable parts of championship teams.
> Go figure...


This is ridiculous Paulo, come on. Fisher and Horry played with two top 5 players in their prime. LeBron is the only thing close to a top 5 player on the Cavs. Mo Williams would easily fill a Derek Fisher role if he was feeding off of two legends like Shaquille/Kobe or Jordan/Pippen. However, just one top 5 player and some scraps won't get it done. Take Shaquille off of those three title teams from 2000-2002. That's basically the team you're expecting LeBron to win a title with. Kobe, plus a bunch of "valuable parts" of a championship team, according to you.


----------



## futuristxen

Even if you took Wade off this team, it would be better than the Cavs team. That's how ridiculous the difference in talent between the Cavs and Heat is right now. It's really startling to see by comparison Pat Riley vs. Danny Ferry/Jim Paxson.

Which is the better team:

Arroyo
Lebron
Mike Miller
Bosh
Z

Bench:
Anthony
Chalmers
Howard
Haslem

Vs.

Mo Williams
Anthony Parker
Lebron
Jamison
Shaq

Bench:
Hickson
Varejao
West
Moon 

Bosh is better than Jamison, and Mike Miller is better than everyone else. Z is the same as Shaq.

You add in Wade and it's not even close.


----------



## f22egl

Wade County said:


> I didn't say they sucked. I said they were Dallas Mavericks East. Look nice in the regular season, go small in the playoffs.
> 
> Look at the stats from Jamison, Mo Will and Shaq in the playoffs 2nd round...nasty...


The Celtics defense had a lot to do with that. IMO, LeBron did too much 1 on 5 dribbling, but more importantly a frontcourt of Shaq/Jamison wasn't working but Mike Brown failed to bench one of them in favor Hickson or Varejao.


----------



## f22egl

futuristxen said:


> Even if you took Wade off this team, it would be better than the Cavs team. That's how ridiculous the difference in talent between the Cavs and Heat is right now. It's really startling to see by comparison Pat Riley vs. Danny Ferry/Jim Paxson.
> 
> Which is the better team:
> 
> Arroyo
> Lebron
> Mike Miller
> Bosh
> Z
> 
> Bench:
> Anthony
> Chalmers
> Howard
> Haslem
> 
> Vs.
> 
> Mo Williams
> Anthony Parker
> Lebron
> Jamison
> Shaq
> 
> Bench:
> Hickson
> Varejao
> West
> Moon
> 
> Bosh is better than Jamison, and Mike Miller is better than everyone else. Z is the same as Shaq.
> 
> You add in Wade and it's not even close.


You are overestimating Mike Miller. Mo Williams is better than him easily. Of course Miller is perfect for this Heat team because he doesn't demand any shots and helps with ball bovement, but Miller will frustrate you by not taking wide open shots. I would even say that Miller is a worse defender than Mo Williams.


----------



## Najee

Gilgamesh said:


> Is Antawn not a legit 20 PPG guy? He may not have averaged 20 PPG with Lebron but is that your logic behind your what I sense you are trying to argue Lebron's Cavs team the last two years is worse or even to the MJ's Wiz team?


For his career, Antawn Jamison has been an above-average player whose most productive years were on teams that were in the lottery and low-level playoff teams. While he's a good scorer and rebounder and can play both forward spots, he has some noticeable weaknesses (mostly, a poor defender, not a good passer). 

Even for his offense strengths, Jamison does need someone to help set up his game because he is not good enough to manufacture his own offense consistently. He also doesn't create mismatches on the floor, to help take pressure off others.

Jamison is on the same level as a Rashard Lewis or a Lamar Odom: productive players who are starter material, but not impactful enough players to compensate for the noticeable holes in their games. They can be steady and occasionally will have very good games or even stretches. But they can't perform at that level consistently and at times even underperform (see Jamison's playoff history, for example).

If Jamison is your No. 4 man, you're in great shape. He can be a good No. 3 man, depending on your top two players. Anything beyond that, and he is overextended.


----------



## Najee

Gilgamesh said:


> I am a Lebron fan but all this BS about the team being absolute garbage is nothing but excuses to me. I remember before the playoff exits the last two years people were saying how they couldn't believe a team had better chemistry and complimenting his supporting cast even Mo during the 66 win season.


I keep forgetting how electric the Mo Williams era was in Milwaukee.

Or how Antwan Jamsion singlehandledy was taking Golden State deep into the playoffs.

Or how Washington -- with Jamison as Gilbert Arenas' wingman -- was the scourge of the NBA.

No one is saying these guys are garbage, but what they were in Cleveland was what they were in their previous stops in their NBA careers. With Jamison, you're talking about a guy who was never more than an above-average player whose most productive years were on lottery teams or low-level playoff teams getting knocked out in the first round. With Williams, you're talking about an average point guard on some lottery-bound Milwaukee teams. 

On top of that, both players have had some uneven to poor playoff performances -- even before coming to Cleveland.

So why some people thought that was going to change all of a sudden -- after years of the same performance patterns, particularly in Jamison's case since he's a 13-year veteran -- just because they put on a Cavaliers jersey never made a bit of sense to me.


----------



## seifer0406

I like how Jamison is so over-rated by some people. He's so good that the Cavs had to send Big Z on a field trip to Washington for a couple of months in order to get Jamison.


----------



## Dre

And he's so great that the Wizards found a replacement for him already on the team at 10 million less.


----------



## Najee

E.H. Munro said:


> Do you want to know what I'm looking forward to? The usual suspects blaming the Cavs implosion not on the general mediocrity of the _teh ossum_ surrounding cast, but to the loss of Shaq & Igor. That's going to be a comedy goldmine like few others.


The same people saying "Cleveland won 60-plus games in back-to-back seasons, so LeBron James did have a supporting cast"-type statements are some of the same people predicting the Cavs will win at least one-third FEWER games without him. Talk about contradictions.

The bigger question is how long Byron Scott will be the head coach. Given the PR disaster of LeBron leaving and an owner an owner who is trying to validate to his fans about how great his franchise is by trashing the player that actually made that franchise relevant, does anyone actually think if Cleveland gets off to a slow start or struggles that Scott is going to be kept?


----------



## futuristxen

I think Scott is in a win-win situation actually. If the Cavs struggle he'll be forgiven because he's doing it without Lebron. If he gets them off to a decent start then he'll be a coach of the year candidate.


----------



## Najee

I disagree, futuristxen. During his first rant, Dan Gilbert said the Cleveland Cavaliers will win a title before LeBron James does -- and given the Miami Heat are considered contenders, the pressure is on in Cleveland. 

During his second "I'm gonna tell on LeBron" schoolyard tirade, Gilbert ranted how Tom Izzo could have been a good NBA coach and that LeBron not contacting Izzo played a role in Izzo turning down the job. Not a vote of confidence IMO, when the employer is whining about "the employee that go away" two weeks after hiring someone else to do the same job that Gilbert wanted to give Izzo.

Then throw in the fact that Scott was the third or fourth option as Cavs head coaching position (depending if John Calipari was in the running), do you really believe Scott has a long shelf life if the Cavs struggle?


----------



## GrandKenyon6

Byron Scott isn't in a position to succeed because he's an awful, awful coach and his team has no talent.

And at no point in Antawn Jamison's career has he ever been much of an impact player.


----------



## E.H. Munro

PauloCatarino said:


> Like seeing you being owned by Gil in this thread?


No, I think seeing you do a 180 on Antawn Jamison is much funnier than Gilgamesh's claims about Jamison. I'm pretty sure that no one is happier that LeBron left than 'Tawn, this is probably the first time since the '98 draft that people have been singing his praises


----------



## E.H. Munro

Najee said:


> The bigger question is how long Byron Scott will be the head coach. Given the PR disaster of LeBron leaving and an owner an owner who is trying to validate to his fans about how great his franchise is by trashing the player that actually made that franchise relevant, does anyone actually think if Cleveland gets off to a slow start or struggles that Scott is going to be kept?


I'm pretty sure that Scott's blast shielding until the Cavs luck into another player to build around. I doubt they fire him because then they'll have no one but themselves to blame for their general suckage.


----------



## Dre

> I never thought that James and Chris Bosh were a tandem, but I was wrong. Bosh was always the X-Factor, I’m told, ultimately in James’ decision for this reason. Bosh had already committed to Miami to play with Wade weeks before, but wasn’t interested in taking less than a max contract thus eliminating the possibility of a “Big 3.” He didn’t feel as if leaving money on the table was in his best interest because he couldn’t make up the difference in Miami in endorsements. But during the day Wednesday when all the focus shifted to New York, Bosh understood he was the hold up and that James would choose Miami if all three took pay cuts. They realized that Pat Riley was the key to them winning multiple titles. He agreed and that’s when word started to spread that Miami was, indeed, the destination. James was in.


Either a good piece of fan fiction, or really insightful. 

http://www.theknicksblog.com/2010/08/04/sources-lebrons-team-wanted-new-york/comment-page-1/


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

KingJames twitter



> Don't think for one min that I haven't been taking mental notes of everyone taking shots at me this summer. And I mean everyone!


----------



## John

Super Friends said:


> KingJames twitter


Didnt know we have a guy call Super Friends here and posted for 8K+. Did you change your screenname?


----------



## John

Super Friends said:


> KingJames twitter


Man, when you jointed this websit, you were 19? I bet you would have been the greatest poster of all time if you werent to play for a small town team like the Heat.


----------



## BlackNRed

John said:


> Man, when you jointed this websit, you were 19? I bet you would have been the greatest poster of all time if you werent to play for a small town team like the Heat.


translation..


----------



## 29380

Super Friends said:


> KingJames twitter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't think for one min that I haven't been taking mental notes of everyone taking shots at me this summer. And I mean everyone!
Click to expand...


----------



## thaKEAF




----------



## thaKEAF

:laugh: it's funny how people were going crazy around page 42/43 right after he announced it calling him a pussy and coward. it's just sports.


----------



## Luke

Apparently the Heat should have taken a harder look at JJ Barea.


----------



## GNG

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision, Thursday 9:00 p.m. EST (ESPN)*



Cinco de Mayo said:


> LOL, here's my LeBron impression:
> 
> *LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> for charity...​


One of my finer posts.


----------



## GNG

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



23AJ said:


> LeBron James just earned a new fan. Welcome to the Miami Heat Dynasty years! Hell yeah, D Wade, Bosh, and LBJ going to run the NBA for the next 5-8 years.


You buying your bubblegum from Dallas these days? You *******.


----------



## TheRevolver

futuristxen said:


> IMO Lebron just avoided ending up a Dirk. Dirk is loyal as **** to the Mavs. But what's it going to get him in the end? The reputation as a loser choker. Whereas Pau Gasol is now regarded as a winner, a champion, a future hall of famer.
> 
> I'd actually say right now Pau is considered maybe even a little better than Dirk. But what's the big difference between the two of them? Pau got out of a losing situation in Memphis and went to LA. Dirk is still in one.


:laugh:


----------



## GNG

*LOL*


----------



## Dre

Ouch


----------



## Game3525

Hot damn!


----------



## R-Star

Wow. Future won't be living that one down anytime soon.


----------



## goodfoot

Too funny!


----------



## S.jR.

futuristxen said:


> IMO Lebron just avoided ending up a Dirk. Dirk is loyal as **** to the Mavs. But what's it going to get him in the end? The reputation as a loser choker. Whereas Pau Gasol is now regarded as a winner, a champion, a future hall of famer.
> 
> I'd actually say right now Pau is considered maybe even a little better than Dirk. But what's the big difference between the two of them? Pau got out of a losing situation in Memphis and went to LA. Dirk is still in one.












Insert foot into mouth... damn!


----------



## edabomb

Haha it's hilarious because it's such a transparent comparison. Even FS will have to have a laugh at this!


----------



## hobojoe

futuristxen said:


> IMO Lebron just avoided ending up a Dirk. Dirk is loyal as **** to the Mavs. But what's it going to get him in the end? The reputation as a loser choker. Whereas Pau Gasol is now regarded as a winner, a champion, a future hall of famer.
> 
> I'd actually say right now Pau is considered maybe even a little better than Dirk. But what's the big difference between the two of them? Pau got out of a losing situation in Memphis and went to LA. Dirk is still in one.
> 
> 
> TheRevolver said:
> 
> 
> 
> :laugh:
Click to expand...

Repped. Nice find, this is incredibly funny.


----------



## Ninjatune

Dirk, that loyal, choking, loser ........ if only he could one day be a champion.


----------



## myst

I dont see the problem, it was true at the time. Unless everybody here is going to eat crow when Lebron wins a ring?


----------



## Dre

Who's saying LeBron won't win a ring

I probably agreed with her at the time but it's still funny in hindsight that's all. She's still a good poster, chill. People always try to be the devil's advocate


----------



## R-Star

myst said:


> I dont see the problem, it was true at the time. Unless everybody here is going to eat crow when Lebron wins a ring?


Even the biggest Lebron and Heat haters agree that they will probably win a ring at some point in time. Just too much talent. 

Are Heat fans who called for an immediate dynasty and a ring every year going to eat crow? Didn't think so. Take it easy junior.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> Even the biggest Lebron and Heat haters agree that they will probably win a ring at some point in time. Just too much talent.
> 
> Are Heat fans who called for an immediate dynasty and a ring every year going to eat crow? Didn't think so. Take it easy junior.


Yea, Lebron and Wade are going to get theirs, and if Chicago can't find a good 2-guard there isn't currently a team that looks like it would keep Miami out of more than 1 or 2 of the next 5-6 Finals(obviously there's going to be roster shake-ups in that time and at least one other contender will emerge in the East, just saying _right now_). I'm just praying that OKC and LAC don't screw up their particular situations(one is far more likely than the other) and we get to see Blake and Durant go at each other yearly in the WCF.


----------



## futuristxen

Yep. I was wrong about Dirk getting a title. Just like EVERYONE ELSE on this board.


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## Dre

I don't know. Wasn't Adam trumpin the Mavs all year? 

Clap for 'em


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## hobojoe

futuristxen said:


> Yep. I was wrong about Dirk getting a title. Just like EVERYONE ELSE on this board.


No one is calling you an idiot or claiming they predicted this would happen before the season, but you have to admit it's a funny post looking back at it at this point in time.


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## BeeGee

Lol looking back, it got Heated on this thread. A year and another choke & failure later, how's that legacy that LePoof was supposedly leaving Cleveland in search of? The legacy that he gave birth to last summer is growing nicely and is eating table food now. Gonna be a big boy if Bron doesn't stop feeding him.


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## futuristxen

BeeGee said:


> Lol looking back, it got Heated on this thread. A year and another choke & failure later, how's that legacy that LePoof was supposedly leaving Cleveland in search of? The legacy that he gave birth to last summer is growing nicely and is eating table food now. Gonna be a big boy if Bron doesn't stop feeding him.


They're actually off to a good start. They made the finals and got within two wins of winning the thing, even with Lebron playing horribly. If everyone stays healthy, this is a team that should be in the finals every year, and end with a fist full of rings. There's no one in the Eastern conference right now that can claim to be on their level.


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## R-Star

futuristxen said:


> They're actually off to a good start. They made the finals and got within two wins of winning the thing, even with Lebron playing horribly. If everyone stays healthy, this is a team that should be in the finals every year, and end with a fist full of rings. There's no one in the Eastern conference right now that can claim to be on their level.


A fist full of rings and no one in the east to challenge? 

Jesus ****. Shouldn't you have learned your lesson in this thread?


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## futuristxen

R-Star said:


> A fist full of rings and no one in the east to challenge?
> 
> Jesus ****. Shouldn't you have learned your lesson in this thread?


Nope. Sorry.


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## R-Star

futuristxen said:


> Nope. Sorry.


That's fine. We don't take the opinion of fake fans such as yourself very seriously to begin with.


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## futuristxen

R-Star said:


> That's fine. We don't take the opinion of fake fans such as yourself very seriously to begin with.


Then why are you always quoting me? And who is "we"? No one is living on your island, R-Star. You'd have them all shot by sundown.


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## R-Star

futuristxen said:


> Then why are you always quoting me? And who is "we"? No one is living on your island, R-Star. You'd have them all shot by sundown.


R-Star is the voice of the people.


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## EGarrett

TheRevolver said:


> futuristxen said:
> 
> 
> 
> IMO Lebron just avoided ending up a Dirk. Dirk is loyal as **** to the Mavs. But what's it going to get him in the end? The reputation as a loser choker. Whereas Pau Gasol is now regarded as a winner, a champion, a future hall of famer.
> 
> I'd actually say right now Pau is considered maybe even a little better than Dirk. But what's the big difference between the two of them? Pau got out of a losing situation in Memphis and went to LA. Dirk is still in one.
> 
> 
> 
> :laugh:
Click to expand...


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## BeeGee

futuristxen said:


> They're actually off to a good start. They made the finals and got within two wins of winning the thing, even with Lebron playing horribly. If everyone stays healthy, this is a team that should be in the finals every year, and end with a fist full of rings. There's no one in the Eastern conference right now that can claim to be on their level.


Off to a good start according to who? According to "Not two, not three, not four, not five, six, seven..." they're off to a horrible start. I understand that every real Heat fan, every Heat bandwagoneer, and every Lebron apologist wants to downplay this, but it aint happening. And "should" means nothing, because according to the pundits, they should have won 70 games this year and should have won the finals easily. The Heat are overrated, and especially given the F.A.C.T. that Lebron is a near-guarantee to be a no-show with the season on the line. Hell, they might not have even gotten past one-legged Boston, were it not for Wade's submission move on Rondo. 

On next year's Heat hotdog, hold the mustard, hold the relish & cheese, and don't even think about putting any "should" on it.


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## edabomb

BeeGee said:


> Off to a good start according to who? According to "Not two, not three, not four, not five, six, seven..." they're off to a horrible start. I understand that every real Heat fan, every Heat bandwagoneer, and every Lebron apologist wants to downplay this, but it aint happening. And "should" means nothing, because according to the pundits, they should have won 70 games this year and should have won the finals easily. The Heat are overrated, and especially given the F.A.C.T. that Lebron is a near-guarantee to be a no-show with the season on the line. Hell, they might not have even gotten past one-legged Boston, were it not for Wade's submission move on Rondo.
> 
> On next year's Heat hotdog, hold the mustard, hold the relish & cheese, and don't even think about putting any "should" on it.


Exactly. When your star player says "the way we're gonna practise - the games are gonna be easy" and you don't win the title it's a failure. When you have two top 5 players in the NBA and don't win it's also a failure.


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## Dre

:2ti:

I doubt LeBron and Wade even practiced against each other


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## BeeGee

LeBron James:  "I mean, just like D Wade just said, we're going to challenge each other in practice. And the way we're going to challenge each other to get better in practice, once the game starts, I mean, it's going to be easy."

FFWD to after game 4 vs. the Mavs...
LeBron James: "No one said it was easy...We knew that. We knew it's not going to be easy. We know it'll pay off in the long run."


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## Pay Ton

I don't think future deserves flack for her Dirk and Lebron comparison per se, because as people have pointed out, that was pretty much the general consensus at one point.

However, she does deserve flack for saying Pau was considered better than Dirk. Any logical, non-biased person knew that Pau Gasol was never, ever, ever, ever better than Dirk.


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## futuristxen

edabomb said:


> Exactly. When your star player says "the way we're gonna practise - the games are gonna be easy" and you don't win the title it's a failure. When you have two top 5 players in the NBA and don't win it's also a failure.


So wait. It's a failure because since they have two of the top 5 players they should win. Yet when I am saying that my expectation is also for them to win--which you agree with by your own logic of calling this season a failure--then I'm being a homer?

If it's a failure because you expect them to win a title every year, then they should be your favorites to win the title next year too, and nothing I said should seem egregious.

I agree they failed this year. But they'll get plenty of opportunities at more failure, so long as they stay healthy.


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## futuristxen

*Re: Update: Lebron to meet Chicago last*



futuristxen said:


> The real area where Wade and Lebron would help is defense. To have both of those guys running around on the defensive end--even a barely competent Defensive coach could turn them into a juggernaut on that end. If they were together under Thibadeau, they could run Boston's system pretty well I think.


Something I got right.


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## futuristxen

From me in another thread:
I was just way wrong on the Mavs this season. Full credit to them.

http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-forum/454963-last-leg-regular-season-3.html#post6525314


> RE: The mavericks--it's incredible how clueless Marc Cuban is on this team. Like they lose in the playoffs for the same reason every single year, and he still hasn't figured it out. The reason they are so good in the regular season is because they are one of the deepest teams in the league, and really utilize their depth to blitz teams. They're also a veteran team that knows how to get it done. But in the playoffs your top 7 players are really where the emphasis is, and Cuban still hasn't upgraded that top 7 players on the Mavs. Their top 7 players are on the same level they have been for the last 10 years, and he just expects to win a title one of these years...what...by default? It's madness.
> 
> It's a shame because Dirk deserves better than to disapoint in the playoffs every year. It's not really his fault. He needs another guy on that team who is a top 10 player(probably top 5).
> 
> Like if I were the Mavericks I'd trade the whole team except for Dirk for CP3 and build off of that. You'd be probably five games worse per year in the regular season--but you'd be damn better in the playoffs.
> 
> You can't win a championship anymore without at least 4 all-stars, or two superstars. The Mavs have one superstars and a bunch of role players. Even the Bulls have a superstar and an all-star.
> 
> Anyways. Rant over. I just get a little pissed because Dirk is one of my favorite players, and he's playing for a rather clueless owner who is pretty much ruining his legacy.


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## Dre

:2ti: some more


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## edabomb

futuristxen said:


> So wait. It's a failure because since they have two of the top 5 players they should win. Yet when I am saying that my expectation is also for them to win--which you agree with by your own logic of calling this season a failure--then I'm being a homer?
> 
> If it's a failure because you expect them to win a title every year, then they should be your favorites to win the title next year too, and nothing I said should seem egregious.
> 
> I agree they failed this year. But they'll get plenty of opportunities at more failure, so long as they stay healthy.


I don't there is any logic when you're called a homer. It's merely peoples emotional reaction to how LeBron has been acting the past year, and people need to vent somewhere.

They are my favourite for next year at this stage. Just need some smarter coaching and for LeBron to learn to score against a zone or a clogged lane though (which I'll admit is a pretty major adjustment for him). Still if I were betting I'd have my money on them.


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## John

R-Star said:


> Wow. Future won't be living that one down anytime soon.


I am the first one on this board to bait Futur more than anyone in here. Come on guys, we have to have class here. If you are going to attack her, attack her with your knowledge of how James is incapble, not attacking someone with this unexpected Mavs whose been a loser, M F loser for years. I would have said the same thing as Futur if I were her as well. Dont blame our casual fans, blame Dirk for not being able to win it when Shaq Kobe / Duncan are all in their primes. * next to theie title man.

1 more thing, to Mav fans, F U!


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## Pay Ton

John said:


> I am the first one on this board to bait Futur more than anyone in here. Come on guys, we have to have class here. If you are going to attack her, attack her with your knowledge of how James is incapble, not attacking someone with this unexpected Mavs whose been a loser, M F loser for years. I would have said the same thing as Futur if I were her as well. Dont blame our casual fans, blame Dirk for not being able to win it when Shaq Kobe / Duncan are all in their primes. * next to theie title man.
> 
> 1 more thing, to Mav fans, F U!


Aaaaahahahahahahahahaha.


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## Geaux Tigers

Vintage John!


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## seifer0406

BeeGee said:


> Off to a good start according to who? According to "Not two, not three, not four, not five, six, seven..." they're off to a horrible start. I understand that every real Heat fan, every Heat bandwagoneer, and every Lebron apologist wants to downplay this, but it aint happening. And "should" means nothing, because according to the pundits, they should have won 70 games this year and should have won the finals easily. The Heat are overrated, and especially given the F.A.C.T. that Lebron is a near-guarantee to be a no-show with the season on the line. Hell, they might not have even gotten past one-legged Boston, were it not for Wade's submission move on Rondo.
> 
> On next year's Heat hotdog, hold the mustard, hold the relish & cheese, and don't even think about putting any "should" on it.


:willis:


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## Jamel Irief

John said:


> I am the first one on this board to bait Futur more than anyone in here. Come on guys, we have to have class here. If you are going to attack her, attack her with your knowledge of how James is incapble, not attacking someone with this unexpected Mavs whose been a loser, M F loser for years. I would have said the same thing as Futur if I were her as well. Dont blame our casual fans, blame Dirk for not being able to win it when Shaq Kobe / Duncan are all in their primes. * next to theie title man.
> 
> 1 more thing, to Mav fans, F U!


I'm not ashamed to admit in front of anyone. I just spent 25 minutes of my NYE reading old John posts. And Im having a great time.


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## hobojoe

Jamel Irief said:


> I'm not ashamed to admit in front of anyone. I just spent 25 minutes of my NYE reading old John posts. And Im having a great time.


Nice avatar.


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## doctordrizzay

*Re: LeBron James: The Decision (ESPN)*



77AJ said:


> LeBron James just earned a new fan. Welcome to the Miami Heat Dynasty years! Hell yeah, D Wade, Bosh, and LBJ going to run the NBA for the next 5-8 years.


Hahahahahaha reading this makes me happy. My god 77AJ....this is precious.


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## Floods

So much dumb****ery in this thread. It's great.


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## doctordrizzay

I liked reading how people thought Lebron was egotistical for having a show...yet every single one of them tuned in to it. Classic stuff.


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## seifer0406

Looking back that argument regarding Lebron having a nice supporting cast back in Cleveland is still the funniest thing I've ever been involved in in all my years here at this site.

Somebody looked at Shaq, Antawn Jamison, Anthony Parker, Mo Williams, Varejao, Big Z, Delonte West, JJ Hickson and came to the conclusion that it's Lebron's fault for not winning a championship.


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## Floods

They bombed every single draft during the LeBron era and the only outside talent they could ever bring in was Mo Williams and whatever run down pieces of shit other teams just didn't want anymore.

Yeah, how dare LeBron leave such a top flight organization. He should get his own banner in Quicken Loans Arena just for carrying that shitshow to the finals in 07 and getting them 127 wins in those last two seasons.


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## E.H. Munro

seifer0406 said:


> Looking back that argument regarding Lebron having a nice supporting cast back in Cleveland is still the funniest thing I've ever been involved in in all my years here at this site.
> 
> Somebody looked at Shaq, Antawn Jamison, Anthony Parker, Mo Williams, Varejao, Big Z, Delonte West, JJ Hickson and came to the conclusion that it's Lebron's fault for not winning a championship.


It was absolutely hilarious. It got even funnier the following season when they tried to justify the loss of West and Shaq's last season being the difference between Cleveland being a .600 team and the reality as a .250 one.


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## LeGoat06

I can't believe @77AJ said that omg lolllllll HAHAHAHAHA


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## XxIrvingxX

LeGoat06 said:


> I can't believe @77AJ said that omg lolllllll HAHAHAHAHA


Did you really just bump this thread just for that? It's AJ77. That shouldn't surprise you.


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## LeGoat06

XxIrvingxX said:


> Did you really just bump this thread just for that? It's AJ77. That shouldn't surprise you.


I bumped it from like a week ago. It had already been bumped.


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## XxIrvingxX

LeGoat06 said:


> I bumped it from like a week ago. It had already been bumped.


The last post before you posted was made three weeks ago.


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## LeGoat06

XxIrvingxX said:


> The last post before you posted was made three weeks ago.


Seeing that posts by a hardcore Pacers fan was worth it.


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## Diable

Dude 77AJ is so hardcore that most of us can't even remember how many teams he's jumped on and off the bandwagons of


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