# Should Denver hang onto Kiki?



## Timmons (May 25, 2005)

He's in his final year as we all know.

He got rid of the contract of Nick Van Exel, Raef Lafrentz, Tariq Abdul Wahad, Avery Johnson and Antonio McDyess.

He brought Denver: Nene, Camby, Miller, Earl B., Earl W., Melo, and more.

But he lost out on Amare, Gilbert Arenas (Miller instead), and others.

Has he done enough to keep his job and keep building here or should he go?

Quality responses will be repped...as usual...


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## Foulzilla (Jan 11, 2005)

Who else would you get though? Kiki has definitely made some mistakes, but he's done more good then bad I would say. The real problem is I can't think of anyone out there that would definitely (or even probably) do better. I suppose they could give Karl the GM title in addition to coaching, but that didn't work out too well in Milwaukee.


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## darth-horax (Nov 21, 2005)

Never give a coach GM status as well.

Keep Kiki.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

As the games and seasons go by, it'll become apparent that a max contract and three first-rounders for KMart was Kiki's biggest mistake, and a big reason why he's got to go. I know he's trying to be patient, but it's important to make the right moves at the right times. I don't think he did that this past offseason.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

My feelings are to hang on to Kiki. I like him. 

He has only been the GM for 4 seasons. This year being his 4th season. Basically 3 seasons under his belt and I'm happy in the direction this Nuggets team is going.

There is no way you can deny his success. His mistakes pale in comparison to the interest/excitement/ and bright future of this Nuggets team. I think people forget how bad the Nuggets were before Kiki became the GM of the Nuggets.

I'm posting a link from the Nuggets main page regarding Kiki and his history as GM for the Nuggets.

http://www.nba.com/nuggets/staff_directory/vandeweghe_bio.html


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## darth-horax (Nov 21, 2005)

It would be ineteresting to know if Kiki knew about K-Mart's microfracture surgery or exactly how bad his knee was before trading for him.

He's one of my faves, and he's a monster when healthy, but when will that be? 3 first rounders is tough, but we also had acquired so many first round picks through the years, it doesn't really hurt us...especially since Karl doesnt' play rookies.

Kiki's best moves were dumping Tariq Abdul-Wahad's TERRIBLE salary/contract and bringing in Earl Boykins.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

darth-horax said:


> Kiki's best moves were dumping Tariq Abdul-Wahad's TERRIBLE salary/contract and bringing in Earl Boykins.


Those are too very postive things. I cant say trading for Kmart is a horrible move. He is overpaid, and struggling with injuries, but he isnt crap, did we give up too much for him and his bloated contract...yes. But by far Kiki's biggest mistake (as well as other GMs) is passing on Amare, and this years draft was a mistake. But nobody is perfect either. Now I wanted Arenas bad. Once we missed out on him I wanted Corey Maggette, but I believe he decided to ink with Utah, and that was matched. So Kiki signed Miller. Now he should have worked things out with Arenas, but who knows maybe Melo and Arenas would be fighting over the ball if he was here. I just cant say.

However, when It comes to paying big bucks for Kiki this summer.... that is completely another question. He has to prove he is worth it. So far he has earned his salary. So even if Stan lets him go, that doesnt mean he isnt a good GM. It just means its in Denver's best interests to look elsewhere, and this may very well be the case this summer.


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## darth-horax (Nov 21, 2005)

Not picking Amare was a big mistake in retrospect, but remember, he was an unknown, really. His profile had a big ? next to his name. He had run in's with the law, had moved to 4 different high schools in 4 years due to legal issues and things like that. Nobody knew what kind of head he had on his shoulders. I remember watching the draft, and everybody was surprised he went as high as he did.

If people knew that he would have his head screwed on straight, and NOT be the next Leon Smith, people would have drafted him in the top 2.


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## Timmons (May 25, 2005)

darth-horax said:


> Not picking Amare was a big mistake in retrospect, but remember, he was an unknown, really. His profile had a big ? next to his name. He had run in's with the law, had moved to 4 different high schools in 4 years due to legal issues and things like that. Nobody knew what kind of head he had on his shoulders. I remember watching the draft, and everybody was surprised he went as high as he did.
> 
> If people knew that he would have his head screwed on straight, and NOT be the next Leon Smith, people would have drafted him in the top 2.


Yeah, but after we got to see Skita's ability wouldn't taking a gamble on a guy like Amare have looked good with Nene also around?????

Plus Randy Moss also had ? marks around his name. 

As far as Gilbert Arenas, he was begging Denver to ink him to a deal. I don't know the exact numbers, but Miller isn't a total bargain next to Arenas' salary.

I'm not quite sure about Kiki. I like the guy and think he did a hell of a good job pulling Denver into a place where fans can expect to win and put pressure on everyone to come in and do a great job. That said, Kiki has to live up to what he build. He gave this city a chance to dream and a shot to compete. 

He has been pretty cautious as to not let Denver slip back into the basement with his moves. He didn't gamble when he could have and that may have saved the Nuggets. But now he must do more. Denver is at best slightly above a .500 team. Kiki must make a move to give Karl the pieces to take the team to the next level. I'd like to see Kiki stay and keep the organization in tact as much as possible, but I don't think Kronke can just give him an extension without seeing that improvments are ahead and not behind in Denver.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

darth-horax said:


> Not picking Amare was a big mistake in retrospect, but remember, he was an unknown, really. His profile had a big ? next to his name. He had run in's with the law, had moved to 4 different high schools in 4 years due to legal issues and things like that. Nobody knew what kind of head he had on his shoulders. I remember watching the draft, and everybody was surprised he went as high as he did.


You're exactly right, which is why I'm tired of peole talking about Kiki passing on Amare. People don't remember that picking him at five would've been insane. At 9, where I believe he went, he was actually a stretch, so fans just need to get over that, cause it wouldn't have made sense to pick him at the spots we had. 

Anyway, about Kiki...

He did an unbelievable job getting this team to where he has. I still can't believe how he landed Camby, Nene, and cap space for McDyess along with dumping other contracts. He did a remarkable job with that. But I think all his trouble started with that first draft. Personally, I'm not satisifed to label Skita as a bust, because I feel he never got the kind of attention he needed. When you draft an 18 year-old, let alone an 18 year-old who has never had starting experience, it's a delicate situation. Either Denver should've left him overseas or they should've paid more attention to him here. I'll put this one on Bzdelik too. He never had any interest in developing Skita, and it showed. Honestly, Skita's very first game in the league was actually pretty good, and he played with confidence. For some reason after that, Bzdelik had no interest in playing Skita, and Skita's confidence seemed to slip. Now, I'm not gonna put this all on the staff. Skita had a part in it too. But like I said, if you're dealing with an 18 year-old with no starting experience, you've got a delicate situation, and the organization never made that committment to Skita. 

Now, everyone wants Nene gone. He hasn't come along as expected. Remember that in their rookie years, him and Amare were talked about together. In the beginning of his rookie year, Nene was at power forward and didn't weigh 270. He was pretty damn explosive at whatever weight he was at. Not Amare explosive, but more explosive than almost any power forward in the league at that time. So what happens? Nene gets moved to center and puts on probably 20 lbs. of muscle. Jermaine O'Neal actually said that he thought Nene was better at his World Championships weight of something like 245. He said he thought Nene was unbelievably explosive. Now, when a player of his caliber goes out of his way to say something like that about Nene, it says something. Unfortunately, Nene was asked to put on the weight (and it might not be a coincidence that the more weight he's put on the more injured he's been) and I feel it has really effected his game. 

It is also worth noting what has happened in our drafts. Who have we really added? It's hard to realize but Kiki has drafted for four years now. The Skita and Nene picks aren't looking that great and he hasn't found anyone in the second round to contribute yet. I can't complain too much about the 2004 draft because he traded for a pick that ended being in the same spot in a draft with a higher talent level, but Hodge hasn't seen the light of day. We had two first rounders in this last draft and a shot at Francisco Garcia - we either should've tried to trade for Granger or possibly Green. Kleiza is turning out to be our best draft pick yet though (Carmelo was obviously a no-brainer), but we could've also added Salim Stoudamire. I just don't see Kiki getting it done in the draft like other teams have, and when you're rebuilding a franchise, that's important. 

But even with all that, I think his worst mistake was the KMart signing. Three first-rounders and a max contract? The second I heard that, I was stunned. Obviously, you can't draft two first-rounders a year and expect them all to eventually start, but three extra first rounders are an asset to have, and we gave them up for someone we didn't necessarily need that had an injury history. I mean, it was possible that New Jersey wasn't going to sign him anyway. Managing a basketball team is like one of us managing our finances. Three extra first-rounders and a lot of cap space are big assets. Do you tie those assets up in a player that isn't elite, has an injury history, and doesn't necessarily fill a position you need to fill? I'd say no. 

On top of that, I still don't understand the Earl Watson situation. I mean, we've gotta be getting close to that cap, so how are we going to resign Carmelo? And if we do, how do we plan on filling our other needs? 

I just think that as soon as Kiki got this organization turned around, and gave it the breathing room it needed, he made some terrible decisions that were made in order to cause instant success. I feel like Kiki exchanged instant gratification for long-term stability and higher potential. As bad as the Nuggets were for years, it wasn't absolutely necessary to make the playoffs right away. I'd rather delay that goal for a year and make the right decisions in order to contend for a championship. Right now, I don't see it happening. Considering how we finished last season, I didn't expect us to be at .500 right now.


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## Timmons (May 25, 2005)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> You're exactly right, which is why I'm tired of peole talking about Kiki passing on Amare. People don't remember that picking him at five would've been insane. At 9, where I believe he went, he was actually a stretch, *so fans just need to get over that*, cause it wouldn't have made sense to pick him at the spots we had.


But it totally made sense to pick up an 18 year-old foreigner with no starting experience and no real scouting by Kiki? Kiki selected Skita without personally seeing him. 

Amare was a big question mark, but so was Skeet Skeet Skita. Skita did need a ton of coddling by the organization and all of what you said above. 
I just don't see how Kiki could have had such a lapse in talent level. This is the NBA and not high school. You can pay to turn a player around by making him go to counseling or make sure you watch your assets' back. 

I don't see how Kiki can be let of the hook for Amare when he was willing to gamble on Skita. It doesn't make sense. But I don't totally want to bust on him for that move. 

I actually agree with just about everything you say Roddney. Hindsight in a draft is a great thing to have. But that was a great post and I can't rep you until I spread some repin' around.

But I'll get at cha. 

I also think that this GM decision is an important one. Is keeping a stable organization more important than letting Kiki walk and hiring someone else? And like Foulzilla said...

Who else can Denver get? I sure as heck don't want to see Karl try to run the show!


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## darth-horax (Nov 21, 2005)

So we signed Andre after we didnt' sign Gilbert.

Imagine if we HAD signed Arenas. We could have a starting lineup right now of Earl Boykins, Gilbert Arenas, Carmelo Anthony, Nene, and Marcus Camby.

That woudl be sweet if Nene wasn't injured. Heck, let's play hindsight. We'd have a lineup of Arenas, Anthony, Stoudamire, Nene, and CAmby...now that would be sweet.


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## Timmons (May 25, 2005)

darth-horax said:


> *So we signed Andre after we didnt' sign Gilbert*.


Gilbert was asked many times during his last season at Golden State about the possibility of playing with Carmelo and he was all about it.

Gilbert was just not worth the money I guess. So instead of offering Arenas a deal, Denver left him hanging and inked Miller instead. 

Arenas actually was quoted in the Denver Post and News if I rememeber as being somewhat upset that he had not heard from Denver.

*Arenas' Deal w/ Wizards* 


> The Wizards signed Arenas to a six-year, $65 million deal on July 22. The Warriors had 15 days to match the offer because Arenas was a restricted free agent, but they couldn't because of salary cap constraints.


*Miller's deal w/ Denver* 


> Miller signed a six-year offer sheet totaling more than $51 million, according to his agent, Lon Babby. The offer includes a $10 million signing bonus and performance bonuses totaling $4.5 million, meaning the deal could exceed $55 million.
> 
> Denver will also give Miller $14 million up front, including $10 million of which will be in the form of a signing bonus. The point guard will also receive 70 percent of his first year's salary by Oct. 15, ESPN's David Aldridge reported Wednesday.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

IIRC, Arenas didn't want to play the 2 in Denver which is where Kiki wanted him to play. Kiki was hoping to have a Dre & Arenas backcourt.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

As far as Kiki giving up the 3 draft picks and the *not* max* contract to Kenyon, my biggest problem with that is that Kiki used the 3 draft picks to buy himself time so that he didn't have to wait on the Nets and tie up his cap space (possibly missing out on other free agents). If Kiki didn't plan on signing anyone else major, why trade the 3 picks? 



*Yes it isn't a max contract, it is a big contract, but isn't the maximum Kenyon could have received for 7 years. The original 6 year offer sheet was a max deal, but that was never signed.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

I can't remember what exactly happened to Arenas, but the Nuggets couldn't sway him in to Denver. I thought Andre Miller was a solid pick up. You have to remember Denver has never been the most enticing place for Free Agents to come and play at. However I do believe that is changing. Thanks to Camby, Kenyon, Miller, and Melo.


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