# EuroBasket2003: "the official thread"



## WonderPelekanos (Dec 17, 2002)

Eurobasket _"started officially"_ with the draw. So, let's enjoy it. 
Some considerations... 

*1.* The formula is 100% idiot. 16 teams, 24 games, to qualify... 12 teams to the barrage. Too many games. And too many teams too. 12 would probably be the right number (2 groups of six teams), and then *semifinals*. 

*2.* The qualification round is 1000% idiot. Why should NTs stop the season with useless game? England - Italy 37-96, or sort of. Why? And now there are lots of European players in the NBA that can't play the qualifying round. The best would be to have a challenge round one week before the EB. There were 5 groups of 6 teams, one year and half of useless games. Well, in 5 days you can have the same results. Put the national teams of Hellas, Spain, Belgium, Israel, Romania and Denmark in Kobenhavn for a week, the winners will play at the Eurobasket. 

*3. Group A* Bosnia and Hercegovina is condemned to elimination, but the three top teams aren't so strong. Watching only at talent, Slovenia could be 2nd best European team, but it was the same in Turkey too, where they didn't pass the 1st round. They are always "an incomplete", and Nesterovic has never shown to be exactly "a part of the team". France will not have Rigaudeau, and his leader will be Tony Parker. Italy won't have any leader, actually it's difficult to say 12 names for the time. Fuc.ka said "farewell" (who cares?), who will be protagonist? No-one, probably. The winner of EB won't come from this group... 

*4. Group B* Germany and Lithuania will fight for the first place. Will the Greens have in their roster Ilgauskas or not? This NT is the most "incomplete" of the last 10 years, many times they would have been able to win a gold medal, but many times they "threw in the toilet" this possbility. Most of all in France, when Yugoslavia was in a transition moment, and Italy got the championship. Lithuania lost it great occasion against Spain, that wasn't the actual shining team, opening the street to Italy. 
Germany as usual will be a... Nowitzkia. A superstar with a group of good players that can bring their brick. Third place will be an interesting battle. Will Latvia confirm that the 8th place in Turkey wasn't a casuality? 

*5. Group C* Great and fantastic group. The greatest "X" is about Serbia-Montenegro, a new name but the heart is always the same. Who can stop this team? Actually only a true Dream Team, and... Maljkovic. Spain will be very dangerous, most of all if Iberians will learn that in basketball there's the 2 points shot too. Still soft in the paint. Russia is always the most lunatic team in Europe. Normally S.M. will get the 1st place, Spain the 2nd, Russia the 3rd. 
Poor Sweden... 

*6. Group D* Interesting, very interesting. Croatia got a new leader (Girigek) and interesting youngs are growing, they didn't join semifinals in Turkey for a foul whistled... after the buzzer, but the team deserves great consideration. It wouldn't be a surprise if they will win the group, going directly to quarters of final. 
Hellas has to play a very good championship for two reasons: experiences in 1999 and 2001 have been tragic (Papaloukas do you remember your 1/6 from the charity line vs Germany? hey guys, do you remember you were leading 42-20?) and in 2004 OG will be hosted in Athens, where Hellas has to come to play *at least* semifinals. Hellas misses a true leader, what other teams have: a Gasol, a Nowitzki, a Kirilenko. Unfortunately it's a choice to have an omogenous team without a pure leader, a go-to-guy. He could be Fotsis. Very strong in quantity. Liadelis won't be there, without any reason, and he would be selected by every NT of Europe (Yugoslavia too? probably). Papaloukas, Diamantidis, Diamantopoulos, Hatzivrettas, Sigalas, Alvertis, Fotsis, Kakiouzis, Ntikoudis, Rentzias, Papadopoulos and... will Alexej Ledkov play or not? This will be the team. 
Turkey is coming from an awful WorldBasket, the limits of a 5-players-made basketball when you're far from your home are normally clear. At the end only Turkoglu and Okur will be really dangerous (but Turkoglu has been a delusion in Indianapolis).


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

What great players except of Zy Ilgauskas does Lithunia have?


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## Chef (Nov 24, 2002)

> What great players except of Zy Ilgauskas does Lithunia have?


Sarunas Jasikevicius (top 5 PG in Europe), Stombergas, Timinskas...


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## Desert Nomad (Jul 15, 2002)

arvydas macijauskas and a few more. Lithuania has been a hotbed of hoops for a long time. What about Darius Songaila.


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## Zalgirinis (Feb 18, 2003)

Heh Lithuania... For the first time I can write something in here.

Well, Ilgauskas. Who knows will he be there. His career was fool of injuries, so for now he is hoping to end season without it and just then he will decide plans for near future. But he never said no for our NT.

The next player isnt Jasikevicius or Songaila, but Macijauskas. He plays in Champions Cup so maybe not everyone see him. But he is the player, we waited for long (well Sarunas Marciulionis was last one), he has balls, he has one of best 3pt shots in Europe (forget Kutluay, see statistics of Turkey-Lithuania game last month) and he can be leader, not looking that hes young (we, who from north part of Europe sometimes lacked leadership after Sabonis era). Though he plays for enemys team (Lietuvos Rytas) in Lithuania, I as fan of Zalgiris respect him. BTW today Zalgiris crushed them in big derby by 16 points (the only player who cared about it till the last second in Rytas side was Macijauskas - 23 points).

Next one is Jasikevicius. He also has balls and is the only one PG in our team (coaches are still bringing Maskoliunas, but...just they know for what). If he feels that team needs something more he gives it (see Sydney, Turkey-Lithuania) but in other matches (2001EC the most) he was gravedigger.

Songaila. He plays perfect for CSKA, just he has to work about foul problem. In NT he has still to find his place, or better to say coaches have to put him in. As in last two games, he was playing CSKA and NCAA style (get the ball and shoot it). Lithuania's NT basketball isnt like that, but I think coach will do smth about it.

Slanina. He shows that he is being first in Spain by 3pt accuracy and 4th by scoring.

Siskauskas struggles now, but he should be a starter at SF. Timinskas havent played for NT lately (family problems), but of course hes on the list. Praskevicius is also back when coach Kazlauskas left. Its bad that our best PF T.Masiulis had argue with new coach Sireika and seems that he wont be in a team. He makes more work than Songaila with Praske together. His work in is mostly invisible, but he helped in Sydney very much as also in Golden Zalgiris season. 

Stombergas. Forget about him. Well maybe not for all time, but as a leader. His days are over, hes showing it this season. Still he maybe plays good, but not like evryone expected from him. He even didnt play in last games (mysterious injury) and noone missed him. But I think coaches still take him to Top12 for his old acchievments and also MAYBE he will return to his old shape and style.

Oh damn I forgot Zukauskas boys. Eurelijus is one of best defending centers in Europe and Mindaugas shouldnt make the team, but he is the one Sireika loves so much, cause he was the first player which Sireika brought to European level. The thing I dont like, that he plays as PF where he doesnt fit, if he played SF, maybe it wouldnt be so bad as it looks now.

There are few more, who are good but it doesnt seem now, that they will make the team. Giedraitis (Slask), Kaukenas (Telindus), Danelius (NCAA, Wake Forest - new leader after Duncan and Songaila), Salenga (his dunks should be in NBA's top10), Kuzminskas (young PF/C) and R.Javtokas, who is still rehabilitating after last Mays motobike accident, but seems he will be back next season. When he was healthy, he scored more points by dunks than in usual way, and his ppg was more than 10


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## The_German_Wunderkid (Jan 29, 2003)

Germany will win the tournament 
We made the 4th place two years ago, 3rd place in the World Cup last year and now we will win or at least reach the damn final!
Nowitzki is the best player in whole Europe and without Pesic Jugoslavia is no longer that strong they have been the last years...now we've got the only Pesic SG Marko Pesic! He's my personal MVP candidate in the tournament


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## WonderPelekanos (Dec 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Zalgirinis</b>!
> Songaila. He plays perfect for CSKA, just he has to work about foul problem. In NT he has still to find his place, or better to say coaches have to put him in. As in last two games, he was playing CSKA and NCAA style (get the ball and shoot it). Lithuania's NT basketball isnt like that, but I think coach will do smth about it.


CSKA is for me "the most American team" in the Euroleague, and Lithuania "the less European NT" in Europe. Both play a very beautiful basketball, quick, maybe not so "essential" like others do. And I guess Songaila is perfect in this philosophy and school, without forgetting that he has been a crack for CSKA in this season (without considering the absurdities of ULEB, MVP of the regular season Joe Blair or the players who have the highest ranking...). He's a sure NBAer, and he will be in my opinion the key player for Lithuania, and one of the 4-5 superstars of the next Eurobasket (with Stojakovic, Gasol, Nowitzki...). 
I can't understand your doubts... 
cheers


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## Chef (Nov 24, 2002)

> Germany will win the tournament
> We made the 4th place two years ago, 3rd place in the World Cup last year and now we will win or at least reach the damn final!
> Nowitzki is the best player in whole Europe and without Pesic Jugoslavia is no longer that strong they have been the last years...now we've got the only Pesic SG Marko Pesic! He's my personal MVP candidate in the tournament


I don't think that will happen. Nowadays Yugoslavia is possibly unbeatable in Europe with Bodiroga, Vujanic, Gurovic, the NBA crew and the help from the referees.

If every NT plays its full potential, IMO the Eurobasket will finish like this:

1st Yugoslavia
2nd Spain
3rd Germany or Greece, maybe Lithuania


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

You list Spain as 2nd just because you're Spanish, right? 

I think Germany can reach the Final. IMO there's no better team, except of Yugos... no, Serbia and Montenegro.


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## Zalgirinis (Feb 18, 2003)

> CSKA is for me "the most American team" in the Euroleague, and Lithuania "the less European NT" in Europe. Both play a very beautiful basketball, quick, maybe not so "essential" like others do. And I guess Songaila is perfect in this philosophy and school, without forgetting that he has been a crack for CSKA in this season (without considering the absurdities of ULEB, MVP of the regular season Joe Blair or the players who have the highest ranking...). He's a sure NBAer, and he will be in my opinion the key player for Lithuania, and one of the 4-5 superstars of the next Eurobasket (with Stojakovic, Gasol, Nowitzki...).
> I can't understand your doubts...
> cheers


Yes CSKA is "the most American team", but Lithuania NT is based on teamplay mostly and just when needed the leader must do his job and mostly leaders change in every game (YUG-LT Sidney Einikis, USA-LT Jasikevicius, LT-Australia Stombergas, Turkey-LT Macijauskas in first half, then Jasikevicius and Slanina). But when all team is looking to one player **** happens (France99 Sabas, EC2001 trio of Jasikevicius, Stombergas, Einikis). Egoictic play isnt liked here and if player plays so, he is very unliked (Songaila received many critics after last two games, not looking that he scored 16 points against Ukraine). So thats why I said coaches must put him in right way in our NT. Yes, hes a NBAer (maybe lacks some cm as a PF), but he has big will to play in there and he will make it earlier or sooner (I think next season). 

Lithuania cant have one key player as Spain or Germany, we must have THE TEAM and just when we will achieve something. Right now it looks that it could happen, even if Big Z join us, others wont be afraid to attack cause Macijauskas or Jasikevicius doesnt care with whom or against who they are playing.


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## Chef (Nov 24, 2002)

> You list Spain as 2nd just because you're Spanish, right?


    



> I think Germany can reach the Final. IMO there's no better team, except of Yugos... no, Serbia and Montenegro.


Spain is better than Germany.


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Chef</b>!
> 
> 
> Spain is better than Germany.


Yeah, I agree. I think Spain is better than Germany (with or without Nowitzki). I don't know who's gonna reach the final but if you analyze the German and the Spanish team player by player, you'll realize that the Iberians are much better. Germany is cool, but lets face it, they can use as an alternative name "Nowitzki and the others".


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## The_German_Wunderkid (Jan 29, 2003)

@ chef

they aren't better than Germany! You saw it in the Worl Cup and you'll se it once again in the Euro 2003!
Pau Gasol isn't a real oponent for Nowitzki! Nowitzki play on a much higher level! Adi Okulaja and Patrick Femmerling are well known in Spain and they can take it up with Bodiroga and the others! Pesic, Demirel and Nikabatse are also very though players!


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## Chef (Nov 24, 2002)

Maybe Nowitzki is better than Gasol (few margin) but what about the others? I like Okulaja, because he is very athletic and a good shooter but it's a bit incosistent. Femmerling is a stiff. Nikagbatse and Demirel are also good but they tend to dissappear from the game. As for Pesic, I don't think he is that good. 

Are you sure you can beat: Gasol, Navarro, Garbajosa, Felipe Reyes, Jimenez, Dueñas...?

You beated us in the worlds, because Spain played crap and stayed six minutes in the fourth without scoring. Still you only won by 8

But that's not gonna be repeated


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

Of course we can. Nowitzki is better than Gasol. Femerling might be a stiff, but Duenas is even more. Okulaja is great player, he can shoot from outside and is a warrior under the basket. Pesic is a deadly shooter from outside, and Demirel can bring the ball up.

C - Patrick Femerling
PF - Dirk Nowitzki
SF - Ademola Okulaja
SG - Marko Pesic
PG - Mithat Demirel/Misan Nikagbatse

And watch out for Misan to kick your ***. 

List Spain's Starting 5, and we'll see.


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## Chef (Nov 24, 2002)

I will post the entire team

C-Gasol
PF-Garbajosa
SF Jimenez
SG Navarro
PG Marco (Raul Lopez is injured)

Then we post the subs

PS: Dueñas is better than Femmerling, compare his stats in Barcelona


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## Chef (Nov 24, 2002)

> Femerling might be a stiff, but Duenas is even more


Barça has just win hte Spanish cup against Tau

Dueñas numbers

18 points, 17 rebounds, 3 steals and a block in 30 mins


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## The_German_Wunderkid (Jan 29, 2003)

Duenas might be better than Femmerling, but has anyone mentioned Bradley???
WE've got Bradley on the center position! And he's playing his best season in the NBA this year!
I know that it will be difficult to convine M.Cuban to give Bradley his allowedness to play in the tournament, but I hope they'll find a way which is okay for them both!


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

Doesn't matter whether Femerling or Duenas is better. Both are stiffs, Duenas just is the larger stiff. Fact is, we've got the MVP of the world championships, and that's all we need. :yes:
With Nowitzki dropping 35 points, and Misan breaking some ankles, nothing can go wrong.


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## Young Serbian (Feb 16, 2003)

C- Drobnjak
Pf - Gurovic 
SF-Stojakovic
SG - Bodiroga
PG - Jaric
reserve:
Vujanic
Radmanovic
Milicic
Rakocevic
Savovic
Rebraca
Cabarkapa

you need any more?


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## WonderPelekanos (Dec 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Young Serbian</b>!
> C- Drobnjak
> Pf - Gurovic
> SF-Stojakovic
> ...


Normally no, but with Maljkovic in the bench I wouldn't be sure to win even the Turkish league with this team (and you forgot Tomasevic, who will start in power-forward). 
About Rebraca what? He missed last competitions with Yugoslavian NT, now he can't even play due to some heart problem (arithmia). Are you sure he will play with the S.M. NT? I don't think so. And anyway, with or without Rebraca, this is obviously the best team. 
And practically all the discussions you can have between Germans, Spaniards, Greeks are about the... 2nd place. Of course I didn't mention Turks: it's well known that Serbia-Montenegro is not so strong like Turkey: Turkoglu is in All Star player, Turkcan the MVP of all the leagues, Kutluay the best guard ever, Okur is better than Ben Wallace (yes, someone *really says* that)...
Yugoslavia won everything only because FIBA is corrupted, exactly like ULEB.


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

_>> Turkoglu is in All Star player, ..._

Turkoglu is an NBA bench player, not an All-Star.
And, futher, Germany almost beat them at the European Championships 2001 in their home country. I think Germany can beat everyone except of Serbia/Montenegro. But when Nowitzki has a "bad day", we'll lose against everyone. We stand and fall with Nowitzkis performance.


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## WonderPelekanos (Dec 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bender</b>!
> _>> Turkoglu is in All Star player, ..._
> 
> Turkoglu is an NBA bench player, not an All-Star.


I know, *of course*, that. It was just an ironic sentence based on the affirmation of _someone_ who told that Turkoglu (7 min tonight, 0/2, nice game) is an All Star player (just because he parteciped to this competition of the All Star weekend with a WNBA player and a VIP, I don't know exactly what it's) and anyway that he will play the real All Star Game in some years.


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## Chef (Nov 24, 2002)

> Fact is, we've got the MVP of the world championships, and that's all we need.


Fact is, that if Dueñas played with Lebanon he could also be the MVP    (joke)



> I think Germany can beat everyone except of Serbia/Montenegro


España beat Serbia&Montenegro at the worlds  

Besides, Turkey sucks. They were second in the 2001 Eurobasket
because the referees favored them (mostly in the semifinals against Spain). They lost to Yugoslavia in the final because you cannot win against earth's most favored NT   

I hope in the Olympic Games Greece gets no favors from the referees (see greek clubs and the european cups or the euroleague)


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

Dueñas is a stiff, one of the biggest on earth. Just look at this nice comparison.










or this one.


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## suspect (Sep 10, 2002)

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## Chef (Nov 24, 2002)

nice comparisons...

still Spain is better than Germany


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## Young Serbian (Feb 16, 2003)

*Chef, youre kidding*

List of facts:
1. Noone gonna beat S&M on euros
2. Germany is solid team
3. Spain sucks
4. Gasol Sucks
5. Nowitzki is best white player ever...
6. Spain wil not enter semi-finals at euros, I can bet on it
7. Again (to remind Chef) NOONE GONNA BEAT YUGOS AT EUROS, ESPECIALLY NOT SPAIN
8. Turkey sucks, also....
:devil: -bodiroga
:devil: -stojakovic
:devil: -vujanic
:devil: -jaric
 -duenas


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## european (Jun 8, 2002)

*Re: Chef, youre kidding*



> Originally posted by <b>Young Serbian</b>!
> List of facts:
> 1. Noone gonna beat S&M on euros
> 2. Germany is solid team
> ...


List of facts:
1.[strike]You are a moron.[/strike]
2.Spain do not suck.They won bronze medal in Turkey 2001.They beat Yugo in last World Championship.
3.Gasol is a great player.
4.Nowiztki best white player ever?LOL.Two words:Larry Bird.
5.Get a clue
6.[strike]You are stupid[/strike]

*[Please, we don't allow personal attacks, even if you don't agree with his opinions]

JGKoblenz*


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## Zelena Hracka (Dec 16, 2002)

Take it easy guys.

My _srpsko_ friend don't be so arrogant. OK you have a great team but that's all. In fact what distinguishes the serbian people I know is that they are really modest, even when it comes to their Basketball NT. Don't spoil that image I have about Serbian people.

I'll disagree with you about Spain and Gasol. Can you give us an explanation of why you believe -what you believe- about the aforementioned?

*OT Question:* Chef, is there anything nice in Salamanca? I'm going there to visit a friend but she doesn't seem to know much about her (new) city. Any suggestions?

Hvala and Gracias


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## Chef (Nov 24, 2002)

> OT Question: Chef, is there anything nice in Salamanca? I'm going there to visit a friend but she doesn't seem to know much about her (new) city. Any suggestions?


Fact is that I have only been to Salamanca once, and only for a few hours. The centre of the city is very nice, with a lot of beautiful ancient buildings: like cathedrals, museums... Salamanca was the European city for the Culture in 2002, so I think you will have plenty of things to do there. Also you may enjoy some tipical products of the zone ("Chorizo de Salamanca" and "Jamon Jabugo). Ask your friend about them, IMO they are delicious


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## Chef (Nov 24, 2002)

> List of facts:
> 1. Noone gonna beat S&M on euros
> 2. Germany is solid team
> 3. Spain sucks
> ...


List of facts:

1. S&M can be beaten unless you are favored by the referees (which is probable)
2 Germany is a solid team OK
3. Be objective, Spain doesn't suck
4. Look at the 3
5 I like Nowitzki, but do you realize bball is a TEAM sport?
6 Bet on it, but if Spain enters the semis, you better go away from the forum, because I will be kidding you forever   
7. Again, IF YOU HAVE THE FAVOR OF THE REFEREES, NONE IT'S GONA BEAT S&M


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## Desert Nomad (Jul 15, 2002)

Doesn't Germany have some solid players other than Nowitzki?


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## european (Jun 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Desert Nomad</b>!
> Doesn't Germany have some solid players other than Nowitzki?


They have Okulaja,who is a very good player.
They also have some other useful players like Pesic,Fermeling,Demirel..


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

_>> Doesn't Germany have some solid players other than Nowitzki? _

We have Misan Nikagbatse. And he'll dismantle y'all on defense. :grinning:


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## Chef (Nov 24, 2002)

> We have Misan Nikagbatse. And he'll dismantle y'all on defense.


I hope so. I had a special feeling when I watched him playing with Germany. I hope he comes to Spain to establish as a player (like Okulaja), give spectacle and then go to the NBA  

My question is why you never start Misan and Pesic instead of Garris and Demirel? 

PG-Nikagbatse
SG- Marko Pesic
SF- Okulaja
PF-Nowitzky
C- Femmerling

That's a very good team if Misan plays solid. 

Bender, could you tell me what does Garris give to the German NT? Cause I have watched several Germany's games at the worlds and the Euros, and he is always disappeared from the game


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

Stefano Garris means nothing. He's not as good as you might think. IMO he isn't even starting for his team, Alba Berlin. He isn't more than a bench player on the NT.
They once thought he'd be one of the top German talents, but now he's almost 24 and hasn't proved anything. There are better talents in Germany than Garris.


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## Chef (Nov 24, 2002)

> Stefano Garris means nothing. He's not as good as you might think. IMO he isn't even starting for his team, Alba Berlin. He isn't more than a bench player on the NT.


OK, You just confirmed my thoughts about him, he is a bust


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

Sorry guys but Nicagbatze is NOT and will NEVER be a point guard.
He's just a short scoring guard, who can do some amazing stuff with the ball, he plays incredible defense when he wants too, but that's all. 
He used to play for my favorite team Olympiakos (we have loaned him to an italian team now) and he was my favorite player and I though he should be getting more playing time, but the truth is that the coaches know more than us fans. The team is pretty good now even without Misan


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## Chef (Nov 24, 2002)

> Sorry guys but Nicagbatze is NOT and will NEVER be a point guard.
> He's just a short scoring guard, who can do some amazing stuff with the ball, he plays incredible defense when he wants too, but that's all.


I disagree. Navarro is similar to Nikagbatse, both are short for the SG and have amazing skills with the ball. Well, Navarro played PG against USA at the worlds and played very well. I'm sure Nikagbatse can play the point with his ball-handling. He only has to realize that he can't shoot that much (like Navarro) and distribute the ball


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

Navarro's case is different. In Spain you give chances to the younger players. If Navarro played in another country, the way he plays, he would be buried on the bench.
Nicagbatze can handle the ball so I guess he can play the point on occasion, but being the PG is not about handling the ball and bringing it down the court, but about setting up the offense.
Very few players are able to do that and unfortunately Misan is not one of them.
He will always be a good player in Europe, he could even be the best SG in Europe one day (he's that talented) but I don't think he will ever be a PG.


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

Hey Chef, who is JJ?


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## WonderPelekanos (Dec 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>qwertyu</b>!
> Hey Chef, who is JJ?


Jim Jackson... the signature of Chef is a link...


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

oh ok thanks


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