# Knicks-Raptors Talking Trade



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

*"Isiah Thomas' month-long pursuit of Donyell Marshall and Jalen Rose has finally reached a point where the Knicks and Raptors are discussing a deal that would send Kurt Thomas and Penny Hardaway to Toronto. According to a league source, Thomas and Rob Babcock, the Raptors general manager, exchanged phone calls yesterday in an attempt to hammer out a deal that would represent Thomas' first major roster move since he acquired Jamal Crawford from the Bulls in August."*

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/273086p-233815c.html


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## pspot (Jul 14, 2004)

Knicks dont need more shooters, they need defensive minded players who can insulate Marbury and Crawford and rebound in the paint, those are you go to guys, an inside out game would work, but if you bring in more shooters there is just not enough ball to go around, and not enough rebounding for when you miss


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Actually, the Knicks need both*

Just who do we have that is shooting the ball well? I admit the lack of defense is a concern but so is not having anybody that can reliably put the ball in the hole. The roster is just not good...


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

So many holes on this roster. Can't have no perimeter D and weak interior. And then people can't to put KT, our only defender on the first boat out.

Defense stinks, shooting is low percentage. FEw guys taking it to the rim. Marbury sets guys up for jumpers, but perimeter jumpers. Where are the little inside dishes? Where are the oops and the backdoors? Enough with making everyone hit 20 footers.

Lots to do, long way to go.

Oh, and screw Rose and Marshall. They are an upgrade in talent but not a long term solution. We are beyond quick fixes, we need to look long term. No more unmovable contracts, please.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Amen...*

It is just going to take time to get a nice team. We have some pieces but need alot. I thought we were closer...I was wrong. BTW, why does IT have no interest in Artest. I know there are risks but the guy is exactly what we need to start to restructure the team. Although he is available, apparently IT has decided he does not want him.Wow.....


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> So many holes on this roster. Can't have no perimeter D and weak interior. And then people can't to put KT, our only defender on the first boat out.
> 
> Defense stinks, shooting is low percentage. FEw guys taking it to the rim. Marbury sets guys up for jumpers, but perimeter jumpers. Where are the little inside dishes? Where are the oops and the backdoors? Enough with making everyone hit 20 footers.
> ...


Marshall is an expiring, but of the 2, I think at his price tag he is the more attactive player.

-Petey


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Rose/Marshall for KT/Penny isn't really a quickfix.

Rose's contract ends before Kurt's does, and Marshall's contract ends before Penny's does.

The difference is Penny's 13 million expires a year before Rose's does, while Kurt's 6 million lasts 4 more years than Marshall's.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

forget the rose marshall trade. either way, Sweets gets no minutes. isiah needs to look at the future, and not just the next few weeks.

we gotta start sweetney just to see if hes the real deal. i dont see why were waiting, its not like Kurt is better then Sweetney. Sure kurts a great defender one on one, but his help defense is kinda bad except for the occasional charge so we'll suck on defense no matter who plays.

rashidi, marshalls expiring contract wont help us in any way. and Rose's bad contract just sucks and hes a known cancer. We can get more for pennys contract next season


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> rashidi, marshalls expiring contract wont help us in any way.


I'd fully expect Isiah to re-sign Marshall though.

I don't buy this deal. Every time the Knicks play a team, there's a bogus trade rumor in the paper the next day. Rumors in the paper just don't happen. The Nets trading for Vince Carter happens.


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## pspot (Jul 14, 2004)

How can you resign someone when you are 60mil over the cap?

No one is shooting well because no one can get into a rythm, 
you pick your two guys Marbury and Crawford, they take the majority of the shots, everyone is looking to dish off to them you improve simplyfying your system
right now you have Marbury, Crawford, Houston, T Thomas all looking for a shot, all feeling like they need to dish off because they need to spread it around. Get Houston on the bench, get a defensive 3 who can drive and rebound, K Thomas/Sweet/Muhammed solid rebounders and inside scorers who will keep the D honest to give Marbury and Crawford shots
basically im saying Marshall and Rose dont do this, 

trade T Thomas or Ariza


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> How can you resign someone when you are 60mil over the cap?


The very nature of this question shows that you know little about the salary cap.

The salary cap greatly restricts signing OTHER TEAM'S free agents. *It does not affect your ability to re-sign your own.*


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> trade T Thomas or Ariza


Trade Tim Thomas? For what? Nobody is interested in his "talent".

Trade Ariza? For what? He makes the NBA minimum. Is he going to bring back Anthony Goldwire or Scott Brooks or something?

You're clearly living in fantasy land here. Get a defensive 3 that can drive and rebound? Is one going to fall out of mid-air? 

Last I checked, the guy you said to trade, Trevor Ariza, is considered a defensive guy that can drive and rebound.


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## townknave (Jun 28, 2003)

I'm with Rashidi on this one. Jalen's contract is huge, but he's way better than Penny and the deal is one year longer. This means it expires when H20 expires. As long as we don't take on bad deals that expire after H20 expires, we are not worsening our cap situation in any way whatsoever. In fact, when and if we do have Rose & Houston expiring we'll have a huge chunk of cap concentrated in only 2 players that we can either deal or simply let walk, taking us out of cap hell and into the realm of being a reasonable NBA team pretty much instantly.

Furthermore, I'd say the deal improves our long-term cap outlook because we shed KT's deal- The deal gives us LESS salary on the books for the season after Houston retires than we'd have if we don't make the deal. What's not to like about this?

Add to all this the fact that we also win the talent comparison handily here. Marshall would currently be the best big man on our team if he were here and is the best player in the deal. Rose, whatever his flaws, is way better than the other player in the deal in Penny. Rose WOULD improve our team right now because he's not an unready 19 year old rookie and he sucks way less than Tim Thomas. He'd give us a starting SF who was not the worst one in the league for a change. We'd also have the option of starting Marshall until Sweets is used to getting major minutes, and when Sweets is ready we can bench Marshall, which would not really be an option with KT due to his ego outpacing his skills (remember when we tried to start McDyess?). 

I'm tired of people saying we need less offense and more defense. The truth is we need lots more offense and TONS more defense. I don't see losing KT as a big blow defensively because really, how much worse can we get on D? Making us an actual decent defensive team would rest on coaching much more than personnel at this point. On the other hand, if we add Rose and Marshall we'd at least have people who can score in ways other than the same damn repetetive pick & pop from 18 feet out, the least efficient offensive play in all of basketball. I don't mind having Rose a year longer than Penny because I don't see Ariza being ready pretty much until Rose expires, so it handles our SF position nicely. With Marshall over KT we improve at PF too, and once Swets is ready Marshall can make a great utility forward off the bench.

In sum I do this deal if and only if it's KT + Penny for Rose + Marshall. Substituting JYD for KT in the deal is not nearly as appealing.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

The reason I consider this a quick fix deal is because it's corrective not really constructive. It's another move "to make the playoffs", it's not trying to add "keeper" players.

IOW, I'm not sure those guys are good enough to justify missing the lottery at his point. And town, I don't get the excitement of being able to bundle Rose's contract with Houston's, we already have that sooner with TT, Penny, Moochie, Nazr. If these massive expiring contracts are to be our route to fortune we're already set with them lets get on with it. Going off memory we have like 35-40M expiring next year, then 25-30M the following (would have been more if Isiah didn't choose to banish Shandon), do we really need to institute a policy to collect them?

And I'm not so excited about these expiring contracts anymore, the whole system of building a team of castoff "stars" with long unattractive deals and a gimp cousin attached just doesn't thrill me. As much as possible I want to use them to get good contract role players, draft picks, and let the rest come off the books. Lets not do a trade-Marbury-and-tank rebuild yet, but lets not dig ourselves in so deep that it never becomes possible. I'd like to see us get our payroll down to the 50-60M range so that we could possibly pull a Phoenix or similar down the road.

Alpha, I'm sure Isiah is pursuing Artest. I think Indy has him in an anger management program and hasn't given up on him yet. They see him as a top 10 type player and aren't gonna jump the gun to dump him.


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## knicks235 (May 20, 2003)

im gonna write this as simple as i can....

Rose 15 ppg>>>>hardaway 2 ppg

in the knicks rose is about 8-10 ppg still way better than hardaway

on the other hand, thomas is better than Marshal so im hoping Thomas' contract is to rich for the raptors and it can just be a rose for penny swap.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

Why would the Raptors do this?
Jalen Rose's contract comes off the books in 2007, and Marshall's expires this year.
Penny's contract expires at the end of next season, and Kurt's still lasts until 2008. 
The Raptors wouldn't save too much money doing this deal and considering the fact that Jalen and Donyell would have a much bigger impact on Toronto than Penny and Kurt respectively, I doubt this would be something that Toronto is looking for.


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## onecooljew (Apr 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> and Rose's bad contract just sucks and hes a known cancer.



Do known cancers carry a team on thier back in the 4th Q to pull out a win against..your Knicks??


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

Please, steve smith pulled a win over us with the bobcats. Milt Palacio carried the raptors on his back last time the knicks played them. Anybody can beat the knicks. I remember matt bonner dropping 15 that game. im pretty confident i can beat marbury off the dribble right now.

so what? i wouldnt call your record with Rose a success.


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## RHJENYK (Jan 5, 2005)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> *"Isiah Thomas' month-long pursuit of Donyell Marshall and Jalen Rose has finally reached a point where the Knicks and Raptors are discussing a deal that would send Kurt Thomas and Penny Hardaway to Toronto. According to a league source, Thomas and Rob Babcock, the Raptors general manager, exchanged phone calls yesterday in an attempt to hammer out a deal that would represent Thomas' first major roster move since he acquired Jamal Crawford from the Bulls in August."*
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/273086p-233815c.html


THATS A GOOD DEAL FOR BOTH TEAM


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

*Re: Re: Knicks-Raptors Talking Trade*



> Originally posted by <b>RHJENYK</b>!
> 
> 
> THATS A GOOD DEAL FOR BOTH TEAM


Good deal for New York, not for Toronto.
Toronto doesn't need another backup PF, and an injury plagued, out of his prime, on the decline guard.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

the only new york/toronto deal that makes sense for toronto is marshall+rose+woods for nazr+thomas

that's not to say it makes sense for new york


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