# How would you build the Bucks?



## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

This debate has everything to do with Marvin vs. Bogut. 


If we draft Marvin, we will be an incredibly explosive team, capable of averaging over 100 points a game.

PG: TJ Ford (22)/ Mo Williams (22)
SG: Michael Redd (26)
SF: Desmond Mason (28)
PF: Marvin Williams (19)/Joe Smith (30)
C: Dan Gadzuric (27)/ Zaza Pachulia (21)



If we draft Bogut, we will run a more traditional style system, probably with more of a half court style offense.

PG: Ford/Williams
SG: Redd
SF: Mason
PF: Smith/ Pachulia
C: Bogut (21)/ Gadzuric



The ages are what they will be at the start of next season. This is also contingent on us re-signing Redd, Gadz, and Zaza, and doesn't take into account our 2nd Round Pick, or another FA addition.

My question is, if both players live up to common expectations, what team has a better chance at winning a championship, and why?


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## PD (Sep 10, 2004)

DHarris34Phan said:


> My question is, if both players live up to common expectations, what team has a better chance at winning a championship, and why?


I am sorry but believing that neither team will win the championship. You need to add another star to either team to do anything. The expectations of the Bucks obtaining No. 1 pick have been too high.

Anyhow, to answer your question, it depends on what players to be added to the team. Bogut needs a blocking/rebounding/defensive player next to him while Redd needs some outside help. There are some off FAs (Swift, Chandler, etc.) this summer, if the Bucks manage to sign a couple that would be great.


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## MilBucksFan2TheCore (Mar 7, 2005)

The team with Marvin Williams will. And will get more money from Herb Kohl to sell to Michael Jordan...who would love to mentor a North Carolina stud like Marvin. 

But that aside you draft the guy who will increase the value of your franchise not just on the court. 

With the prevailing distain for foreign players across the NBA by whites and non whites you take the one with the most appeal to fans not just in this market.

Milwaukee loves the great w hype type Center and that is fine. But we have missed more then any team in NBA history on big 7 foot guys. Need I name the Ivory Towers who we took because 'you cant coach height crap?'

Breuer, Mokeski, Brickowski, John Block, Kevin Restani, Brad Lohaus, Dick Cunningham...I can go on and on...Swen Nater, the historic Kent Benson...

There were some black stiff too now...let me balance this to be fair. Earvin Johnson, Alton Lister, Joe Barry Carroll, Kevin Duckworth, Tito Horford, but we also had the best who ever lived in Kareem and Lanier as well.

That makes 2-0.

Take the best player down the road to win a title and the best now as far as value and impact on and off the court and across the league. Marvin Williams. He is from a high profile school in North Carolina, he is from a place that is defending National Champions with his other teamates getting draft as well..

He drums up more interest. For Bucks it is all about image not substance this time.
We got enough goodie two shoes type players. And Marvin is a great kid too. But we need talent...and credibility. Take Bogut and we are a laughingstock...hick town who falls over themselvess again...


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

actually if you guys don't take Bogut I will be laughing at you.

Taking Marvin Williams would be like if San Antonio had taken Tim Thomas and his world of potential, instead of the consensus player of the year, Bogut.

I mean, if Williams is so great, he played in college too last year--why didn't he ever actually play better than Bogut?


If you are deadset on drafting potential and excitement, then trade down and draft Gerald Green.

Or here's an idea, trade the number 1 pick to Atlanta so they can have Bogut, and you can get something plus marvin williams.


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## alex (Jan 7, 2003)

MilBucksFan2TheCore said:


> The team with Marvin Williams will. And will get more money from Herb Kohl to sell to Michael Jordan...who would love to mentor a North Carolina stud like Marvin.



Okay, let's get this oudda our dreams and thoughts. *Michael Jordan, had he bought the Bucks, would have moved them to LAS VEGAS * 

He even said so, and Herbie decided not to sell them because of this . . . the Herbster wants an owner commited to staying in Milwaukee. 

Anyhow, about the topic. Andrew Bogut's athleticism is underrated. Sports talkshow hosts are calling him a "giant stiff" and a "14 and 8 in his prime". The fourteen and eight comes from his Olympic numbers against America, which is insanely absurd since he put that up as a _nineteen year old _ playing against some of the best bigs in the NBA. I feel that Bogut can put up 16 ppg 9 rpg 4 apg next season, and be a 20-23 ppg 10-12 rpg 4-6 apg center/powerforward in his prime, and in the top fifteen (probably around 8-15) for his best six years. He's a much better athlete then people give him credit for, especially when you consider his size. Even Tim Duncan is a below average NBA athlete for the typically sized NBA player. However, TD is about 6'11" 260 lbs, and for his size he's a terrific athlete, especially running the floor.

I feel that Andrew Bogut is somewhat similar. He's not a great athlete compared to the typical NBA wing, but for a post player he's fairly good. And he has GREAT intangibles. 

I would certainly build around Bogut. If I were the Bucks, I'd trade everyone but a few players. I'd keep Mike Redd (I'd sign and trade him now if he wants too much, which is around nine million) Zaur, Mo Williams, TJ Ford, and maybe Dez. I love Desmond Mason, but I would think the Bucks should build with youth. He could, however, provide "veteran leadership" to a young team, so maybe he should be kept for a few more years.

I feel that the Bucks should build through the draft and by signing young free-agents. A prime example is Chris Wilcox, who, when given playing time, does fairly well. He's very young, and if the Bucks offer a deal for 6 million a year, I don't think the Clips will match. If ya match Bogut and Wilcox, ya get a nice mix of size and skill with speed and athleticism. 

As for the draft, I'd make the Bucks so bad (by trading good players on teh Bucks to title aspiring teams for expiring contracts, although this is a bit wishful thinking) to almost garauntee a top five pick. Hopefully, by trading these players, they could get a second first round pick. 

Yeah, the Bucks will be lousy for two or so years, but they will slowly rise and be a title contender when Andrew Bogut is 24-25. If the Bucks follow this course, their lineup could be in four years . . .

Player Age
C-Andrew Bogut 25 
PF-Chris Wilcox about 27
SF- Idunno, Dez'll be a bit old, this'll probably be a draft pick, like Corey Brewer 
SG-Mike Redd
PG-hopefully TJ Ford, if not Maurice Williams is pretty good

Andrew Bogut's comparitve lack of athleticism will not stand out as much if the other four players can run fairly well. He'll give the Buck the best chance of eventually winning a championship.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

I agree with almost everything you say there Alex....but with Bogut, we won't be lousy next year. Look at the 2003/2004 playoff roster. With Andrew Bogut, a solid 2nd Round Pick, and a more deveolped Michael Redd and Dan Gadzuric, and a recharged TJ Ford, this team is WAY better. With Bogut, this team wins at least 35 games, and will contend for the 7th or 8th spot in the East.

I disagree about Desmond Mason. If we can get him for around 6 million dollars for the next 5 years, we lock him up. He is the definition of a team player, and he has been nothing but spectacular in his time in Milwaukee. Even if he comes off the bench as a 6th man down the road, he is definitly worth it. Plus, he is only 28 years old, so he still has 3-4 prime seasons left, and a few more serviceable ones after that.

We have time to find the longterm answer at PF. Right now, Joe Smith is VERY servicable, and with Bogut in the mix down low, Smith will continue to improve, even at the ripe age of 30. Joe has 2 more years left on his contract, so we will get this year out of him, and if there is something that we can aquire for him when his contract is expiring, then go for it. The point is, Joe keeps us fairly competative while giving us time to search out for the answer at the 4, wheter it be in FA, or in the draft.

We have our Big Man Depth set for the next 5 years at least when we re-sign Gadz and Zaza. Those guys are going to be awesome off the bench. It is such a luxury to have quality bigmen off the bench, and we will.

With a healthy TJ Ford, our point guard situation will be golden for the forseeable future with him and Mo. There is not a better young PG duo in the league, and they will only get better.

Next year, my ideal depth chart looks like this:

PG: TJ Ford/ Mo Williams/ Anthony Goldwire (upgradeable,but up to vet's min)
SG: Michael Redd/ Eddie Basden (2nd Round Pick)
SF: Desmond Mason/ Toni Kukoc/ Eddie Basden
PF: Joe Smith/ Zaza Pachulia
C: Andrew Bogut/ Dan Gadzuric/ Calvin Booth

We don't need to go out and spend the remaining capspace, which will be around 7-8 million dollars (after resigning Redd, Gadz, Zaza, and signing Bogut and Basden), we can stand pat and watch this team develop. With Smith and Calvin Booth's 13.5 million dollars in capspace coming off the books in 2 years, we will have around 15-20 million dollars to build on a foundation of TJ Ford, Michael Redd, Andrew Bogut, and role players of Zaza Pachulia and Dan Gadzuric, and Eddie Basden


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> actually if you guys don't take Bogut I will be laughing at you.
> 
> Taking Marvin Williams would be like if San Antonio had taken Tim Thomas and his world of potential, instead of the consensus player of the year, Bogut.
> 
> ...


This is laughable. College does not equal NBA. 

It's not about potential. It's about who is going to be the better player.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

MemphisX said:


> This is laughable. College does not equal NBA.
> 
> It's not about potential. It's about who is going to be the better player.


Of course not....but Andrew Bogut has proved Internationally as well in College that he can play, and even dominate. He has nothing more to prove.

Andrew Bogut has proved to me that he will be the better player.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

DHarris34Phan said:


> Of course not....but Andrew Bogut has proved Internationally as well in College that he can play, and even dominate. He has nothing more to prove.
> 
> Andrew Bogut has proved to me that he will be the better player.


You don't know anything about his international oponents. You don't know how good they were or what kind of league he was in.

He dominated the MWC! Wow, who gives a crap.

He didn't play against a 7-footer all season, so he really didn't prove that he'll be able to go up against guys who are bigger than him.

He is rail thin. Hell, Marvin Williams weighs 10 pounds less than him, and he's a small forward!

He really hasn't "proved" anything, except that he can dominate weaker opponents.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

> You don't know anything about his international oponents. You don't know how good they were or what kind of league he was in.


Actually I do. Although they are not your NBA All Stars, but as a whole, they are all definitly better than any High School player that he would match up with in the United States at the same age.



> He dominated the MWC! Wow, who gives a crap.


The fact that he won almost all of the awards as a sophomore, who is still learning the "American" style of play (another knock on him), makes me think that a lot of people across the country gave a crap at what he did this season. Not only dominating the MWC, but leading a MWC team to the Sweet 16 on his back.



> He didn't play against a 7-footer all season, so he really didn't prove that he'll be able to go up against guys who are bigger than him.


Sorry, he didn't go up against a 7 footer all season. But he did go up against 6'10 and 6'11 players on almost a nightly basis, even in the MWC. You can say that these guys are weak, and they are not on an NBA Level, but the fact is he wasn't playing against guys that were half his height.



> He is rail thin. Hell, Marvin Williams weighs 10 pounds less than him, and he's a small forward!


I have already read published reports of Bogut adding 20 pounds in muscle. 



> He really hasn't "proved" anything, except that he can dominate weaker opponents.


And Marvin Williams has proved more?


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

You don't know crap about his opponnents overseas. Name some of these great players then. You underestimate the level of high school basketball in this country.

Wow, published reports that you've read. Believing is seeing.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> You don't know crap about his opponnents overseas. Name some of these great players then. You underestimate the level of high school basketball in this country.
> 
> Wow, published reports that you've read. Believing is seeing.


I know that a lot of Bogut's overseas opponents are considered draft picks, while 90% of HS players aren't even close.


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## alex (Jan 7, 2003)

:laugh: 

DHarris, I don't think you can convince someone with a screen name "MarvinWilliams#1in05". He's consumed by Marvin Williams, just let him be. I, as well as most people, think that Bogut will be the first pick and the better and more valuable player.

And Marvin05, Andrew Bogut averaged 26 ppg 17 rpg in the premier Junior Tournament in the world. Marvin Williams, as a high school senior, "Averaged 28.7 points and 15.5 rebounds, five blocked shots and five assists as a senior at Bremerton High School in Bremerton, Wash." (teamsite info). 

These statistics are comparable, except that the Junior Championships are faaaaaaaaaaaaar more competitive then US high school. He went up against lots of very good players that will one day either play in the NBA or play at high level European teams. In addition, he grew two inches since those Junior Championships. He was just 6'5" as a sixteen year old, but is now around 7'0". 

Furthermore, in the Olympics as a nineteen year old, he averaged nearly 15 ppg and 9 rpg. The competition at the Olympics are veeeeery good. 

And, lastly, even in college Andrew Bogut _was not_ a twig. He's not extremely strong, but he was a solid 240-245 pounds. I think his ideal playing weight will be at 255 pounds, which isn't a huge jump.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

My ideal job is to be a GM, it's like George Costanza when brainstorming about careers. "So Nimreitz what are you interested in, what could you see yourself doing" "I could be a general manager or something" But anyway, here's what i would do this off season and just don't murder me for my lack of loyalty and sensitivity to the fans. But there is a Plan A and a Plan B. Plan A is Redd bolts, Plan B Redd stays. Also TJ is never going to be TJ again. Sorry for the pessimism, but I don't think he will be, that back is in horrible shape.

Plan A:

We have a ton of cap room, the #1 overall pick, but the only good player on our roster is Mason. I've been won over to the Bogut side, so we take the big Aussie. So now basically what we have is Bogut, Mason, and cap space, a LOT of it. I resign Zaza or Danny G, whoever will take less money. If neither sign an offer sheet and will take the same amount to stay in Milwaukee I keep Gadz. I go out and look to make a SPLASH. I also realize that I have a few expiring contracts for next season, so if I'm willing to take on a crappy contract, I might be able to get better value than the expiring contracts. My ideal plan would be to trade for Darko, but I think I'd get linched the way to my car. I spent some time looking at teams that could use someone like Booth or Smith (or Both), have a bad contract, and have a shoter they'd be willing to deal. The only team I saw was Golden State with Foyle and his HORRENDOUS contract plus Dunleavy (a kid from milwaukee). I say we make that the base deal and even it out with picks or bit players. Golden State gets inside presence (what they wanted when they gave Foyle that contract) and we get our shooter and someone to back up Bogut. So that leaves us with Dunleavy, Dez, and Bogut. We still have cap space because we didn't use any in the deal, so I say sign a few really solid players to offer sheets. Tyson Chandler (great defender) could play here, we could also go after Radman if he doesn't want a huge deal, there's Swift if he's relatively cheap, if we're into taking a risk there's Kwame, and one guy we NEED who I just realized might be a free agent if he opts out, Darius Songaila. He would be a GREAT PF backup and also someone I could see starting if we really needed him to. Bogut + Songaila is kinda weak together (although Songaila isn't weak, nor is Bogut), but I really like him and he'll probably be cheap. In terms of guards we have a big hole at PG, but again I don't think we're just going to go crazy with the funds, so I think there are a few options. First we could try to bring Damon Jones back to Milwaukee, but he'll probably require our full MLE. Someone who could come cheap because of injuries is Bobby Jackson, but it's a big risk/big reward scenario. I think we should max out our capspace on an athletic wing, maybe we could get Bobby Simmons or Bonzi Wells(doesn't seem like a Milwaukee guy though), or another idea would be Gerald Wallace, who might come cheap and then spend the MLE on Jones because I think he'd fit in so well with Bogut.

And so here's the lineup:

PG: Jones/Williams
SG: Dunleavy/Gaines
SF: Mason/Wallace
PF: Chandler/Songaila
C: Bogut/Gadz/Foyle

I like that team. If we can get another shooter via the draft or whatever we are SCARY. I really like the idea of Jones bringing it up the court, feeding it in to Bogut in the post, who then can either hit a streaking super freak athlete cutting (Mason/Wallace), hitting Chandler/Songaila under the hoop, kicking it out to Jones and Dunleavy, or just posting up his man inside. Those are options! We lack depth, so that's a definite problem, but it's a solid team and while I don't have the exact salary figures the only guys we sign are Chandler, Songaila, and Wallace plus Jones with the MLE. It seems like Kukoc, Redd, and all the other guys leaving off sets that since I think Songaila and Wallace could be cheap. Jones is worth the MLE if we have Bogut and that's all I think he really wants. And I haven't really even gotten to the best part about addressing our depth. The second round of the draft. We need a shooter and in the second round for SUPER cheap might be guys like Kennedy Winston, Daniel Ewing, Salim Stoudamire, and Francisco Garcia. One of those guys will be on the board when we pick 6th in the second round, guaranteed. Salim will never start, but comming off the Bench he can just DRAIN the threes especially if Bogut's spraying passes all over the court. Winston is an athletic guard, and Ewing and Garcia both have a nice stroke plus they can even handle the ball if we want to go really big like Garcia, Dunleavy, Chandler, Songaila, Bogut. That team is sick, that team makes the playoffs. But unfortunately my last move is to fire Terry Porter, I want someone who will develop my big men who knows the intricacies of banging in the post who will get on Bogut, but also knows the game well. Now I know this is just going to sound dumb, so I'll say someone else afterwards, but what about former Georgetown coach John Thompson? Ewing, Mutombo, etc. That guy can make a big man great. Other than that maybe someone like Kevin O'Neil (who's a pretty good coach, plus has a Mil-town connection in Marquette) or I don't know maybe even bring Del Harris back. But those guys are laid back, I want someone to get on Bogut, not stunt him, but really fire him up. The team is young, so there wouldn't be a Vet to do it, like a Gary Peyton, so I really need a great leader who can motivate youngsters, that's why I think John Thompson (assuming he would come out of retirement and come to milwaukee) just seems like such a great choice. Damn I'm tired after all that fantasy, I won't do the Redd stays scenario because I'm sure all the posts above are about that. But just think about that team! THAT'S the foundation for a Championship my Tosa friend.

I don't think the Bulls would match Chandler either, they are DEFINITELY going to match Curry and although they get off the hook for a lot of salaries this off season I think they'll look ahead. Curry's the center of the future, they also have Hinrich and Deng to worry about in the future, plus Nocioni as a capable backup to Chandler, and plus after comming out at #2 they've been disappointed with him in Chicago. And if they let him go they could make a run for Ray Allen, who I think would be great for the Baby Bulls. Just think of Hinrich, Allen, Deng, Nocioni (remember that HUGE playoff game? Like 20 boards!), and Curry. I just think they might feel Allen and perhaps even another good free agent are worth more to them than resigning Chandler. And if they had to choose 1, I think Curry stays and Chandler leaves because Curry is a future all-star center. Songaila would come if he ops out, same with Jones (because we can offer him the MLE and I think that's all he would be shooting for if he opts out, and he'd be happy with it). We might not be able to get Wallace, but if not we should go after another athletic wing and if we had Chandler and Jones, he might want to come here.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Wow...Nimreitz, that was a very well thought out post. I respect the time and dedication you put into it. You build 2 very good foundations, mostly based around Free Agent and Trades. But, I don't think we should go out and throw huge dollars around to build a foundation. I agree that Free Agency is a good way to plug into players to the foundation, I just don't think we should committ huge money just to build the foundation.

With what we would have (with Bogut, and resigned players), we would have 2 guys on a rookie contact (Ford and Bogut), a cheap Mo Williams (w/ Bird Rights) 1 long, expensive contract (Redd), Desmond Masons 2 year deal worth 15 million dollars, and a moderatly priced Gadz and Zaza:

PG: Ford/ Williams
SG: Redd/_______
SF: _____/Mason
PF: ______/Zaza
C: Bogut/Gadz

With these 8 players, we have a quailty foundation to build upon, and most are in their rookie contracts and not TOO expensive. Next year, these guys (assuming Redd gets 8.5 million, Gadz 4, and Zaza 2.5..realistic) that is only commiting 30 million dollars to these players. The Cap will probably be about 48 million dollars after the new CBA, so that gives us 18 million dollars to spend Free Agents! That is enough to get an above average SF and PF, and easily full the rest of the backup roles of the depth chart.

Also, I am sure Dez isn't going to command the 8 million he will be recieving in the last year of his contract, so we might be able to re-up him for 5 or 6 million a year, saving 2 to 3 million dollars. Desmond Mason is one of the best 6th men in the league, and will be for at least the next 4-5 seasons.

I am not going to speculate on who to pickup in FA, because that is just speculative....lol. But I know for sure that there will always be a ready supply of high quailty PF's and SF's, most of them young coming off of their rookie contracts.

The jury is still out on Ford, and even Williams at the point, but they have shown flashes, and tit is enough to at least watch them gel with this team. If they aren't the answer for us at the point after 2 seasons, then they are make great trading chips at the tender age of 24.

Sure, it is a very simple plan, but I honesty think that this foundation gives us a legitimate shot at becoming a contending team in 2-3 years, after they have gelled, and with smart FA and draft decisions.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

When you figure out the 30 million are you considering Joe Smith and Calvin Booth, who make the 2nd and 3rd most money on the team? I think a trade with Golden State for Dunleavy (who I guess they aren't satisfied with, plus they'd love to get Pietrus involved more for SURE) is just what the doctor ordered, and he would probably love to play in milwaukee. He'd buy a house in Whitefish Bay and send his future kids to U-School just like where when his dad was a coach here. Anyway, can I get an answer about Smith and Booth before I start speculating about next season?

Also where do you get the financial information? Real GM's Trade checker just deals with shares or something dumb like that.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> When you figure out the 30 million are you considering Joe Smith and Calvin Booth, who make the 2nd and 3rd most money on the team? I think a trade with Golden State for Dunleavy (who I guess they aren't satisfied with, plus they'd love to get Pietrus involved more for SURE) is just what the doctor ordered, and he would probably love to play in milwaukee. He'd buy a house in Whitefish Bay and send his future kids to U-School just like where when his dad was a coach here. Anyway, can I get an answer about Smith and Booth before I start speculating about next season?
> 
> Also where do you get the financial information? Real GM's Trade checker just deals with shares or something dumb like that.


I am not taking Booth's and Smith's salary into account. I am looking at "the foundation's" salaries after Booth and Smith are either traded or we just let them walk. That is in 2 years, and that is when the foundation will start to fufill its potential IMO. 

Smith can be traded for a decent draft pick, or packaged with a draft pick (we have 2 2006 2nd rounders) to aquire a younger, better PF with a similar contract, or maybe a little more $$$. 

With Booth, we will either have to buy him out or let him be our 3rd stringer for the next 2 seasons. At 6 million per year for the next 2 seasons, it sucks, but its only 2 seasons. He will be gone when the team has a more clearer vision. After that, it gives us 6 million dollars to committ to someone else.

I get my information from Hoopshype.com. It is on the left sidebar "Hoopshype Salaries". You can see that we don't have anyone outside our foundation (assuming we resign Redd, Gadz, and Zaza are resigned) is locked up after the 2006/07 season. In fact, we have nobody under contract RIGHT NOW for the 07/08 season. This gives us extreme cap flexability.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

I'll start the wild speculation as I stay up ALL night tonight comming up with scenarios for the Bucks next year, but I think Tyson Chandler is worth destroying our future cap flexibility for. He is just so good defensively, a 7 footer who can guard the 2 AND the 5. Plus he's decent in the post on offense, I really like Tyson and I think I offer him a HUGE deal that the Bulls probably won't match.

But where we differ is on our optimism for TJ. I just don't think he's going to come back or if he does he isn't at the same level as he was in his rookie campaign. And regardless he isn't much of a shooter, so I just don't think he works well with Bogut. I think we need 2 guys just teeing up from the outside, Dez isn't one of them and TJ isn't one. I think Damon Jones would be just perfect, a guy comfortable with playing his role who can just shoot the lights out.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

> I'll start the wild speculation as I stay up ALL night tonight comming up with scenarios for the Bucks next year, but I think Tyson Chandler is worth destroying our future cap flexibility for. He is just so good defensively, a 7 footer who can guard the 2 AND the 5. Plus he's decent in the post on offense, I really like Tyson and I think I offer him a HUGE deal that the Bulls probably won't match.


I also LOVE Tyson Chandler...if LH feels that he is a guy to committ money to, then he could be a guy to go after. We have to be careful on who we are throwing money at. Look at the prediciment Anthony Mason and Jason Caffey got us in. Eventually, we are going to have to throw money at a big time FA to plug into my foundation. Like I said, I absolutley love TC, but whether TC is the guy or not, that is up to LH. TC alongside Bogut would be scary.



> But where we differ is on our optimism for TJ. I just don't think he's going to come back or if he does he isn't at the same level as he was in his rookie campaign. And regardless he isn't much of a shooter, so I just don't think he works well with Bogut. I think we need 2 guys just teeing up from the outside, Dez isn't one of them and TJ isn't one. I think Damon Jones would be just perfect, a guy comfortable with playing his role who can just shoot the lights out.


Questioning TJ's durability coming into next year is very valid. He might not be the same player. But, at the same time, the reward is much greater than the risk at this point. He could end up even better for all we know. I agree, his shooting game is very poor. But look at how he drives! With a guy like Andrew Bogut taking away bigmen from the paint, or receiving passes in the paint, TJ can flourish IMO! How many times do you see Tony Parker recklessly drive to the hoop, and then make the easy pass to TD for the easy basket. I think a TJ and Bogut combo could do the same.

I am not penciling TJ Ford as our franchise PG, but right now, it is very much worth it to take a flyer on him. Let him prove to us that he isn't capable.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

TJ = TP, yeah I can actually see that. If only we have a Ginobili we'd be set. I think Parker's a slightly better shooter, but I actually do see that, good point. I suppose what we could do is give TJ some respect and not sign a point guard this off season, but if he doesn't come back like we hoped he would then next off season we put cash on the table. The other option which I think is interesting is we could sign someone like Damon Jones, and if TJ comes back we could trade either Ford or Jones for a first round draft pick (since I don't think we'll move into the lottery with a Bogut, Redd, Dez, Big Time FA lineup, we'll definitely be playoff material). And I guess to even out the salaries we'd get an expiring contract and have the pick be protected top 5 so it's not like we're getting the farm for someone as mediocre as Ford or Jones.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

I couldn't resist speculating Free Agents so.....

With Bogut in the mix, my ideal offseason this year would be signing Joe Johnson. I don't know how much he will command, but I am willing to put up 8-10 million dollars a year for the guy. Sign him right now to a 5 or 6 year deall (New CBA?) and you will get the best 5-6 years of the guys career. He will be a 20 point, 7 rebound, 4 assist guy next year.

Our new foundation/+salary committments for next season
PG: TJ Ford (2.3)/ Mo Williams (1.7)
SG: Michael Redd (9)/_________
SF: Joe Johnson (8)/ Desmond Mason (7)
PF: __________/ Zaza Pachulia (2.5)
C: Andrew Bogut (3)/ Dan Gadzuric (5)

If Redd and JJ are signed at that price that team is 39.5 million dollars. WE ARE STILL 10 million dollars under the cap!


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Ok this might sound weird, but I don't resign Gadz or Zaza. Sorry to let you go, especially Gadz, but we have to. I came up with 28.6 Million committed next year including the salary for the #1 pick. That leaves us with around 20 Million plus the Mid Level Exemption. I think we're OK at center with Bogut and Booth. I mean, we just got Booth late in the year, so we can split the center between 2 guys and not hape a problem, plenty of minutes to go around between Bogut and Booth. We take 18 Million and we split it between Redd and Chandler's offer sheet. I don't know how you do it, 8.5 Redd, 9.5 Chandler or 9 each, but whatever. Then you're still 1.5 Mil or so under the cap and I think the MLE is 10% of the cap, so 4.8 Mil which sounds about what it was last year. And we NEED to back up Dez, guys that could fit the bill are Wallace or Bogans, who both are athletic and can play D, but we can't go crazy because those guys aren't worth the full exemption. I bet we could get Zaza and Bogans for the MLE. If we were to spend it all there's probably a wing like Bonzi, although he'd want more money I think, or maybe a shooter like Radman if he'll take the MLE, or an Eddie Jones (but if we sign him for more than 2 years it's a horrible deal for us, or Kittles (same as Jones). With Bogut, Redd, Dez, and Chandler (I can hope can't I!!) we aren't a lottery team, so we might as well try to sign a solid vet for a couple years on the MLE. Another option is Chandler, Zaza, someone like Bogans, and then not use the MLE. I think this is a good option because next summer we'll have another 12 Million in cap space and if you say Mason might sign for an equal or even less amount we'll be in incredible shape! We could still grab one of those middle of the road PGs like Jones on the MLE, which wouldn't count against the cap, and then use the 12 Mil for an elite Small Forward, 12 Million will get you a LOT. All of a sudden with Ford, Redd, 2006 FA, Chandler, and Bogut we have one of the best starting 5's in the league with few if any holes. And all that time we need to grab solid college players in the second round. Your Salims, Ewings, Bracey Wrights, and so on. Perfect backups. I'm giddy right now, but let's just hope LH has the vision and creativity to see the position he's in, about 10 Million in cap space for the next two summers without losing anyone significant. I don't want a typical Wisconsin Free Agent splash, meaning no splash at all and spend none of it on role players, but we need to get some stars. Like if we could get someone like Q or Artest at Small Forward in 06, how amazing would that be?


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Great Post! Do you see where I was coming from now about the whole Andrew Bogut thing? The fact that we don't have to worry about the Center Position is such a huge commodity. Plus, for the next 5 years, we are paying Bogut less than half of what Erick Dampier gets!

Plus, like you said, we can go out and sign a guy like Joe Johnson or Artest, who have alraedy developed into the player that Marvin Williams is just projected to be right now. We can get one of those guys in FA, with a bigtime Center!


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Well here's the thing, there's absolutely no question in my mind that Marvin Williams will be the better NBA Player when all is said and done. But with Bogut's size and the ability to not have to sign Adonal Foyle to 7 million a year (GOD how dumb) we get tremendous flexibility. Bogut will average over his 4 years the same amount as Gadz will command in free agency. It's just a huge bargain to get a center for at least 4 years for that cheap. I just wish there was some reason we could completely TANK next year without losing any of our players. Like if I could give Dez and Redd minor, but season ending, injuries next year I would TOTALLY do it. That team + the cap space + a lottery pick is just not even fair. Basically I'm mad we can't somehow draft Gerald Green this year.

And when it comes down to it, I guess Wings are a dime a dozen in the league. Superstars aren't, and I really really think Marv will be incredible because he's SO unselfish and can do everything, but I think free agency could provide us with a good enough player. It's weird, but I just think in this instance we don't want the best player available, which I completely think is Marvin.

Hey, we also have that Polish Kid too, I wonder if he's any good.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

> Well here's the thing, there's absolutely no question in my mind that Marvin Williams will be the better NBA Player when all is said and done. But with Bogut's size and the ability to not have to sign Adonal Foyle to 7 million a year (GOD how dumb) we get tremendous flexibility. Bogut will average over his 4 years the same amount as Gadz will command in free agency. It's just a huge bargain to get a center for at least 4 years for that cheap. I just wish there was some reason we could completely TANK next year without losing any of our players. Like if I could give Dez and Redd minor, but season ending, injuries next year I would TOTALLY do it. That team + the cap space + a lottery pick is just not even fair. Basically I'm mad we can't somehow draft Gerald Green this year.


In a nutshell...that is why I have been arguing to draft Andrew Bogut. It is not because I necessarily think he is going to become the better player. It is that in today's money game, you just can't get a quality FA Center cheaply. Bogut is better than Dampier and Foyle, and they make RIDICULOUS amounts of money. The fact that he will contribute in these cheap years, is just icing on the cake.

Getting a lotto pick next year would be prime. IDK about moving into the lottery, but we will have a 1st round pick, in the 18-23 range IMO, and 2 2nd round picks, maybe we can trade up higher...maybe throw in Joe Smith...more options! If we got Gerald Green this year...the team of Ford/Redd/Green/_____/Bogut, with Dez as the 6th man, would be insane. 




> And when it comes down to it, I guess Wings are a dime a dozen in the league. Superstars aren't, and I really really think Marv will be incredible because he's SO unselfish and can do everything, but I think free agency could provide us with a good enough player. It's weird, but I just think in this instance we don't want the best player available, which I completely think is Marvin.


Exactly. Marvin will put up 20/7/4 in his prime, but so will ALOT of wing players. With the surrounding cast we can put around an above average SF, not necesarrily a superstar, they can be a great player.



> Hey, we also have that Polish Kid too, I wonder if he's any good.


Who knows...He is still young, and is putting up decent numbers in Europe.


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