# Calling Wisconsin Homers...



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

You guys still think the better team lost your matchup vs Butler? :krazy:


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Butler beats an equally overrated VCU team that put together a nice run and all of a sudden they're great?


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

Nimreitz said:


> Butler beats an equally overrated VCU team that put together a nice run and all of a sudden they're great?


When's the last time Wisconsin made it to the Final Four? How about Butler? Debate over.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

I guess Pittsburgh and Florida were overrated, too. And K-State, Syracuse from last year. Everybody except for Wisconsin. 

Right?


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Jonathan Watters said:


> I guess Pittsburgh and Florida were overrated, too. And K-State, Syracuse from last year. Everybody except for Wisconsin.
> 
> Right?


No Wisconsin was properly rated around 10-15. Pitt wasn't overrated although UF's seed was definitely higher than they deserved. Cuse and K-State were properly rated last year. Upsets happen. Stevens is a very good coach and he has some very good players, but the 2010/2011 team isn't great. It just isn't. My opinion won't change even if they win the Title.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

So if Butler makes another run next year, will you admit you were wrong?

And you never did answer the original question...


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

My only point is and was that Butler isn't one of the best 2 or 4 or 8 teams in college basketball and have benefited from some very good luck in the Tournament. Over the course of an entire season, yes Wisconsin was the better team. Over the course of 3 games in March, Butler has very obviously been better. My preference is to see the best teams play the final games and because I'm a fan I also like to see my team play as long as possible. Butler isn't one of the best teams and they aren't my team (same for VCU), so I don't see why I should be happy about this. I wasn't last year either.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

I think the line between "more talented" and "better" is blurry when it comes to Butler. They obviously aren't more talented than Wisconsin, but they were quite obviously the better team when they played the Badgers. 

In fact, they put up the worst fight of any of Butler's tournament opponents. I could see Pitt or Florida fans claiming their team was better, but not Wisconsin. Butler beat them without luck playing much of a factor. 

But if you think this was a fluke, you just haven't been paying attention. Brad Stevens said in the postgame interview that his team has no choice but to play together, because as individuals they don't stand a chance. Their lack of talent worked to their advantage this time, in going up against teams that were underprepared and/or incapable of adjusting to Butler's constantly changing gameplan. 

At any rate, what you have going on here is very similar to Team USA losing multiple times over the last decade. Team USA clearly the most talented, but the pieces didn't complement each other and they were incapable of putting together a coherent gameplan. I happen to believe that Butler is no fluke, and if major college basketball programs don't adjust to Brad Stevens, Brad Stevens is going to keep embarrassing them.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Nim, for all the propping up you do for Bo Ryan being this "elite" coach because of his lack of talent, would you consider Brad Stevens a better coach since he achieves much more when it counts with similar talent?


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Jonathan Watters said:


> I think the line between "more talented" and "better" is blurry when it comes to Butler. They obviously aren't more talented than Wisconsin, but they were quite obviously the better team when they played the Badgers.
> 
> In fact, they put up the worst fight of any of Butler's tournament opponents. I could see Pitt or Florida fans claiming their team was better, but not Wisconsin. Butler beat them without luck playing much of a factor.
> 
> ...


I'm certainly not going to say Wisconsin was better when they played Butler, nor have I ever said that. Butler were vastly superior that night. And I don't think it really has anything to do with being unprepared, it has everything to do with missing shots that usually go down.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

bball2223 said:


> Nim, for all the propping up you do for Bo Ryan being this "elite" coach because of his lack of talent, would you consider Brad Stevens a better coach since he achieves much more when it counts with similar talent?


I think it's arguable, yes. I really couldn't tell you who is the better coach. It's really only a matter of longevity at this point. Bo has been very good in the Big Ten for a decade, and is the winningest coach (by percentage) in Wisconsin D3 history (which includes a lot of good coaches including Dick Bennett). Stevens has 4 years under his belt.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> I think it's arguable, yes. I really couldn't tell you who is the better coach. It's really only a matter of longevity at this point. Bo has been very good in the Big Ten for a decade, and is the winningest coach (by percentage) in Wisconsin D3 history (which includes a lot of good coaches including Dick Bennett). Stevens has 4 years under his belt.


4 years and 2 National Championship appearances. Something no coach can say they've done. Ever.


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

Jonathan Watters said:


> You guys still think the better team lost your matchup vs Butler? :krazy:


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)




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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Earth to Wisconsin meatheads...Butler didn't lose their next time out. They lost in the freaking national title game. This debate was over a long time ago, and yet here you are. 

The amount of delusion it takes to root for a sports team...its just mind boggling.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Jonathan Watters said:


> Earth to Wisconsin meatheads...Butler didn't lose their next time out. They lost in the freaking national title game. This debate was over a long time ago, and yet here you are.
> 
> The amount of delusion it takes to root for a sports team...its just mind boggling.


So you made a thread to bait Wisconsin fans... and are surprised that they are defending their team?


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

Jonathan Watters said:


> Earth to Wisconsin meatheads...Butler didn't lose their next time out. They lost in the freaking national title game. This debate was over a long time ago, and yet here you are.
> 
> The amount of delusion it takes to root for a sports team...its just mind boggling.


Oh good you've decided to show yourself after that embarrassing game by Butler. You criticized my views that Wisconsin lost because of having an off night shooting, seems suiting that Butler embarrasses themselves with 18.8% shooting - NCAA title game record by the way. Maybe their luck ran out. Or maybe their just not as good as everyone thought. Which is it?


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Well obviously they weren't as good as UConn. 

Unlike you, when a team loses decisively I'm not going to make ridiculous excuses for them. Butler shot poorly, but Connecticut's intimidation was definitely a factor. Butler's 3 point shooting was bad, but their 2-point shooting was even worse. And that was just as much Connecticut as it was Butler. 

Could Butler have made it a game if they had shot better? Probably could have. Just like Wisconsin could have made it a game if they had shot better. But neither game was close. Butler got into Wisconsin's head with their physical brand of halfcourt defense, and the Badgers didn't have the athletes in the frontcourt to significantly bother Butler. 

I might be more willing to listen to your mindless babble if Butler didn't have such a strong history of lock down perimeter defense, and/or if UConn didn't show up in the top handful of 2p% defense teams every single year. 

In both cases, the better team did what it does best to come up with the win.


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

Jonathan Watters said:


> *Could Butler have made it a game if they had shot better? Probably could have. Just like Wisconsin could have made it a game if they had shot better.* But neither game was close. Butler got into Wisconsin's head with their physical brand of halfcourt defense, and the Badgers didn't have the athletes in the frontcourt to significantly bother Butler.


So Wisconsin did have an off night then, like I have been saying all along. Glad we are on the same page.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

No. 

"Could have a shot" is not the same as "better than the team they lost to"

Or maybe you can explain how they are the same. You have spent the last 3 week trying to explain how Wisconsin is better than Butler even though Butler wiped the floor with them, so you can pretty much say whatever you feel like at this point - right?


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Butler lost 12 games playing in a terrible conference they couldn't even win outright. Just stop it, they aren't a good team. Congrats on their run, and all the power to them for it, but the stars were absolutely aligned for it to happen.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Nimreitz said:


> Butler lost 12 games playing in a terrible conference they couldn't even win outright. Just stop it, they aren't a good team. Congrats on their run, and all the power to them for it, but the stars were absolutely aligned for it to happen.


Wait, Butler wasn't even a good team?


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh............. give me a ****ing break that's such a neutral word it barely means anything.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

How about you give reality a break? 

You just wrote that the national runner up wasn't a good team. 

Thank for you continuing to prove my point at every turn...


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

Jonathan Watters said:


> No.
> 
> "Could have a shot" is not the same as "better than the team they lost to"
> 
> Or maybe you can explain how they are the same. You have spent the last 3 week trying to explain how Wisconsin is better than Butler even though Butler wiped the floor with them, so you can pretty much say whatever you feel like at this point - right?


Wait, Butler wiped the floor with Wisconsin? That would imply a total blowout, but yet they only won by 7. Don't think that's exactly what you referred to as "wiping the floor" with.Also, let me point out that you said Wisconsin would have made it a game had they shot better. My argument the whole time is that Wisconsin had an off game - you know an off night in terms of shooting - and that was reason for their loss. Your consistency in producing delusional statements astounds me.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Time to go look at the original question I posed. Do I have a right to decide what question I asked in MY OWN FREAKING THREAD? 

YOU were the one who decided to show up, and if all you were arguing all along was that Wisconsin had an off game and had no comment on whether the better team one that game, then I have no idea what you are doing here in the first place. 

And yes. You've got me. Me and my delusions about Butler absolutely obliterating Wisconsin until the final 5 minutes when they made a conscious decision to slow the game down and stop trying to score. My delusions about calling the national runner up a good team. Just absurd talk. When does it stop, oh when?!?!?

Are you really such a child that when somebody calls out your logical fallacies, the only thing you can come up with is to accuse them of the exact same thing? You realize a monkey could come up with a better response, right?

Between you, HB and KA, it is quite the crew. I'm really surprised they can't find semi-literate posters to moderate these boards anymore...


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

Jonathan Watters said:


> Time to go look at the original question I posed. Do I have a right to decide what question I asked in MY OWN FREAKING THREAD?
> 
> YOU were the one who decided to show up, and if all you were arguing all along was that Wisconsin had an off game and had no comment on whether the better team one that game, then I have no idea what you are doing here in the first place.
> 
> And yes. You've got me. Me and my delusions about Butler absolutely obliterating Wisconsin until the final 5 minutes when they made a conscious decision to slow the game down and stop trying to score. My delusions about calling the national runner up a good team. Just absurd talk. When does it stop, oh when?!?!?


Speaking of semi-literate, you're saying I'm the only one to show up. How about some love for Nimreitz?

You called out my team, Wisconsin, and I am simply defending them with the facts that were in front of everyone that night and all season, if you actually paid attention to the Badgers. 



> Are you really such a child that when somebody calls out your logical fallacies, the only thing you can come up with is to accuse them of the exact same thing? You realize a monkey could come up with a better response, right?


I could say the same thing.



> Between you, HB and KA, it is quite the crew. I'm really surprised they can't find semi-literate posters to moderate these boards anymore...


Typical. When faced with conflicting parties and nothing to backup your arguments, you just accuse other posters of not knowing what they are talking about.

Come back when you know what you're talking about.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Quite Frankly said:


> Speaking of semi-literate, you're saying I'm the only one to show up. How about some love for Nimreitz?
> 
> You called out my team, Wisconsin, and I am simply defending them with the facts that were in front of everyone that night and all season, if you actually paid attention to the Badgers.


You didn't answer the question I posed...and Nimreitz is wrong in this situation, but he still puts forth an actual argument. You make no attempt at an argument, completely ignore my arguments and then come back with personal attacks after I call you out for ignoring them. You've served no purpose in this thread, but seem to think you have a responsibility to defend the honor of your precious Badgers, which isn't even in question. 




> I could say the same thing.


Not really. You still haven't managed to answer the original question. So there really is nothing for me to respond to in the first place. All you are doing is acting like a spoiled child instead of adding to legitimate discussion like a moderator is supposed to do. 



> Typical. When faced with conflicting parties and nothing to backup your arguments, you just accuse other posters of not knowing what they are talking about.


Care to tell what I haven't backed up? I've mentioned multiple times in multiple threads that the game was a freaking blowout until Butler intentionally stopped scoring in an effort to slow the game down. YOU have yet to respond to this, or even attempt to respond to this. BECAUSE YOU CAN'T. 

And YOU have the nerve to accuse ME of not being able to back up my argument? The MODERATOR who can't even answer a simple question yet has the nerve to come and instigate things? 

Just how do you wake up in the morning believing you can make such a disingenuous statement? Scum like you are the reason the world is in trouble...there is no accountability to the truth anymore. Just say whatever you want to say, make up your own reality as you go along...



> Come back when you know what you're talking about.


I should come back to the thread that I created when I know what I'm talking about? The thread that you can't even come up with an on-topic response to? There's a reason these boards have gone downhill, the same reason that allows meatheads such as yourself to become moderators.


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

Cute, another conspiracy theorist that the meatheads have taken over moderating duties of the boards. In competence is quite humorous. 

I've said what I've needed to say in proceeding posts and other threads. If want to continue denying facts and logic, go ahead.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Let's keep it about basketball...


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## Gronehestu (Oct 9, 2013)

Oh man. You mean I came to this site years too late to meet this awesome Minnesota fan?

Please, Jonathan Watters, wherever you are and whatever you're doing...come back


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

If I recall correctly, he was an Iowa fan.


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## Gronehestu (Oct 9, 2013)

eh, that's almost the same thing lol


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## Kreutz35 (Dec 23, 2011)

I'd say being an Iowa fan makes him even more awesome! (Insert sarcasm here)


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Watters knew more than all of us combined about basketball, and you have his word for that.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

I maintain that the second Butler team to make the National Title Game wasn't that good. The still finished #33 in the kenpom ratings after they've been retroactively adjusted, and after their run to the Final. They were like #55 statistically before the tournament, if that. They lost 10 games, most to teams outside the national top 100.

For the record, I'm down on Wisconsin this year. If we do well, that's great, but I still maintain the two best UW teams I've seen under Bo Ryan have been the 2007 team that lost to Davidson and the 2011 team that lost to Butler.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Nimreitz said:


> I maintain that the second Butler team to make the National Title Game wasn't that good. The still finished #33 in the kenpom ratings after they've been retroactively adjusted, and after their run to the Final. They were like #55 statistically before the tournament, if that. They lost 10 games, most to teams outside the national top 100.
> 
> For the record, I'm down on Wisconsin this year. If we do well, that's great, but I still maintain the two best UW teams I've seen under Bo Ryan have been the 2007 team that lost to Davidson and the 2011 team that lost to Butler.


It is kind of an interesting exercise trying to distinguish Bo Ryan's teams from each other... he's been so damned consistent.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Well the two Jordan Taylor teams are very similar. You can trace is pretty easily from Devin Harris to Mike Wilkinson to Alando Tucker to Brian Butch (worst player on the list, but best teams) to Trevon Hughes to Jordan Taylor to I guess Sam Dekker although he's more like Butch in that he wasn't really a dominating presence as the best player.


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## EpicFailGuy (Mar 5, 2010)

Iowa and Minnesota....

I have never seen a fan of either...okay, 1 Iowa fan.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

You know, now that Dornado says it, the teams are really hard to distinguish. Because the 2004 team (Devin Harris' last year) was awesome, and the one in 2005 got to the Elite 8, going out to a *GREAT* UNC team by only 6 points despite losing Harris a year too soon and relying on a sophomore PG who wasn't ready.


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## Gronehestu (Oct 9, 2013)

Nimreitz said:


> You know, now that Dornado says it, the teams are really hard to distinguish. Because the 2004 team (Devin Harris' last year) was awesome, and the one in 2005 got to the Elite 8, going out to a *GREAT* UNC team by only 6 points despite losing Harris a year too soon and relying on a sophomore PG who wasn't ready.


The team that lost to UNC has always felt like the best in my mind. Maybe it's skewed by the memory of us just raining 3's on those guys, Clayton Hanson was unconscious in that game. If it was a best of 10 series, who could say how many such games we could've played, staying right with them offensively? But we sure came to play that afternoon and it was definitely made that much more impressive by the fact that UNC just wiped their butts with everyone in the land that tourney. 

My buddies have already brought up the potential Douggie Mac/Steph Curry thing...I really don't like the thought of meeting up with another guy who could potentially go for 40 on us and knock us out single-handedly...and yet, BYU has a similar guy in Hawes, and Oregon is the type of loaded perimeter team that, if they have a Cornell game against us, could just run away with the matchup. 

Dammit I really am confident about this year's Badger team, and I can recall feeling like we've been stuck in other, more intimidating brackets in the past (at least on paper)...and yet, we will never really shake those memories of past losses until we break through to a Final Four. Please, Bucky, let it be this year.


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## Mrs. Thang (Apr 14, 2011)

I think this year's team is the best Bo Ryan team because it's the first one that doesn't make me want to claw my eyes out from exasperating boredom.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

What if I told you that the 2006 (Alando Tucker Year) and 2007 teams were faster, 2006 being significantly so?


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## Mrs. Thang (Apr 14, 2011)

It's more of an aesthetic thing. This year's team is still slow, but it doesn't seem like they are slow just for the sake being slow like over the last 5-6 years. I have no problem with slow and controlled if it seems like guys are actually trying to work for good shots and not using it as a strategy to bore the other team out of their comfort zone.


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