# T-Mac to HOU not that bad



## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

When I saw the T-Mac deals I had Houston ranked a distant fourth behind Indiana, Phoenix, and the Clippers. After I thought about it for a while and I saw that a Houston trade was more and more likely to happen I began to warm up to the idea. The deal I propose is this:

T-Mac, Howard, DeClercq, Lue

for

Francis, Mobley, Cato, Nachbar, 2005 1st

Why? Francis may not be a true point but he is better than anything we've had since Penny. Mobley is an able scorer and a decent defender. Cato fills a huge hole at center. He's a bad contract but he plays defense and rebounds. Nachbar's a young guy who can stroke the three. Here's our lineup after the draft but not including the MLE:

Francis, Stevenson, Gaines
Mobley, Bogans
Hill, Garrity, Nachbar
Okafor, Gooden
Cato, Jin (#30)

IL: Burks (#36)

This lineup won't win championships but it is a much improved defensive team and with the wise use of the MLE we should make the playoffs.


----------



## SKiP (Jan 28, 2004)

This lineup would be decent and if everybody stays healthy the Magic could make the playoffs. That would still be a huge improvement from last years disappointing team.


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

After doing some serious thinking about this trade, I've accepted the fact that it may go down, and I'd be alright with it. It may take me a while, but I think I'd be able to cheer for Franchise in Orlando, and I'd get used to him and just learn to take the good with the bad. I already like Mobley, and don't have a problem with him. The part of the deal that intrigues me the most is Cato, because the more I think about him the more I think he'll be a really solid player for the Magic. I don't like his contract, but he's a good rebounder and defensive player in the middle for the Magic. Team him up with Okafor, we should be solid in the middle. A lineup of Francis, Mobley, Hill, Okafor and Cato has no superstar, but five capable scorers and 3 capable outside shooters, as well as a few capable defensive players, and four good rebounders for their size/position. You know, if this unit can get some chemistry, which should already be there between Francis, Mobley and Cato, and I don't see Hill or Okafor having any problems fitting in, I think we'll be alright after all. We'll still have Drew Gooden to come off the bench, or to start right away if Okafor isn't ready, as well as Keith Bogans, Pat Garrity. We would also have our MLE to pursue a guy like Stephen Jackson to play small forward, since we know Hill isn't reliable with his ankle. So while it wouldn't be my first option, I'd be alright with this trade, especially with how well I think our new-look team can play defense. Of course, getting a coach in that could teach defense would help, but we know that's not happening any time soon. Also, rumor has it that Indiana has pulled out of the T-Mac sweepstakes.


----------



## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

My post from the other thread


> The reason why I'm not as satisfied with this trade is it doesn't bring any youth to this team, with Francis, Mobley, and Cato all at their respective primes. I don't figure any of them to improve much and none of them are superstars. With Davis at the coaching helm, I have fear that Francis/Mobley are just going to run wild, which in all likelyhood will happen with few other scoring options. Plus, neither were exactly known for their defensive prowess prior to Van Gundy, and I'm scared they may revert to their old habits with a new and considerably worse coach. While they may manage up to a #4 seed in the East, the likelyhood that they would seriously contend for the Eastern Conference seems slim, with Detroit and Indiana sporting more talented teams, with much better coaches.
> 
> With the other options that may exist with the Suns or Clippers, our team gets younger, while also receiving additional draft picks along with either rights to overseas players (Vujanic/Lampe) in Phoenix's case.
> 
> Or if all else fails, I honestly would not be displeased one bit to simply stick with McGrady. He has stated he wants to leave, but who says a successful year can't change his mind? If they sign a stable PG such as Arroyo and Daniels to the MLE, and draft Okafor to provide much needed frontcourt help, I don't see why the Magic couldn't easily revert to their old playoff form. After a winning season and seeing Okafor provide solid production, McGrady, who has preferred to stay in Orlando first where his home is located, could conceivebly resign with us. And if that fails, the Magic still end up with some serious cap space, with both Hill's and McGrady's contracts coming off the books.


----------



## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> My post from the other thread


I understand your point but with my deal we still have Okafor, Gooden, Nachbar, Stevenson, Gaines, Hou's 2005 1st, etc. We still have plenty of youth. Also, Francis, Mobley, and Cato are all in their twenties.

As for the part about keeping T-Mac through the season, for me this is simply too risky. The closer we get to the trading deadline the less value he has. With all the media attention that this has been getting I think it is too late to go back. T-Mac has to go, it's time for the Magic to go in a new direction.


----------



## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Todays insider says that Phoenix and the Clippers are frontrunners if TMac agreed to resign with the Clippers.


----------



## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> Todays insider says that Phoenix and the Clippers are frontrunners if TMac agreed to resign with the Clippers.


That's good I guess. I like the Clippers and the Phoenix deal, although I'm not sure what exactly the Phoenix deal is. Insider says Phoenix would do Marion, JJ, and Jacobsen. I would be all over that deal. Another one I'd like is Marion, Barbosa, and the #7 but who knows if Phoenix does that one.


----------



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> When I saw the T-Mac deals I had Houston ranked a distant fourth behind Indiana, Phoenix, and the Clippers. After I thought about it for a while and I saw that a Houston trade was more and more likely to happen I began to warm up to the idea. The deal I propose is this:
> 
> T-Mac, Howard, DeClercq, Lue
> ...


2nd rounder in the playoffs only, can't go farther.


----------



## Justice (Nov 22, 2003)

It is my post in MNA trade forum....


Wow, I see a lot of "sore grape" pacers and suns fans here. Man, you guys made Francis look worse than J Tinsley or whoever suns PG is. SF might be a turnover-machine, but he is clearly better than Marion and Artest. In first four season he averaged 18 ppg, 20 ppg, 22 ppg and 21 ppg. Last season his stats dropped to 16.6 ppg because of JVG's system. When he played without injury, Rockets won 35, 45, 43 and 45 games in the WEST. How many games did suns win this year? I know Bulls did not win jack when Artest/Brand were with us.

Cato is a physical 7-footer, which is hard to find in NBA. When you have Malgoire made all-star game or Yao made all-star starter, you know centers are important. 

It is saying that center/PG are the hardest positions to fill and Francis/cato can be the foundation for the years to come. Mobley is just icing on the cake.

The best part about this trade is that Francis/Mobley/Cato have been winning games in the west and they could do that same in the EAST. Magic doesn't have to draft an immediate help in this draft. I mean, they can wait for Howard to develop.


----------



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Justice</b>!
> It is my post in MNA trade forum....
> 
> 
> ...


what does 'win jack' mean?


----------



## Justice (Nov 22, 2003)

well, they did not win anything for us.


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

ESPNews is reporting the deal is almost complete. The teams are working out the minor details, but it will probably be T-Mac, Juwan Howard and Andrew DeClercq for Steve Francis, Cuttino Mobley and Kelvin Cato as the base of the deal.


----------



## WhoDaBest23 (Apr 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> ESPNews is reporting the deal is almost complete. The teams are working out the minor details, but it will probably be T-Mac, Juwan Howard and Andrew DeClercq for Steve Francis, Cuttino Mobley and Kelvin Cato as the base of the deal.


Wow... T-Mac and Yao... :drool: 

The Orlando lineup doesn't look too bad and they should make the playoffs in the east.

Houton's lineup kind of looks like this...

C - Yao/DeClercq
PF - Howard/Taylor/Weatherpoon
SF - T-Mac
SG - Jackson/Piatowski
PG - Lue/2nd rd pick?

That's a pretty good lineup for Houston IMO...

I'm loving your avatar hobojoe.


----------



## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

That Houston team has a gaping hole at the point. If they don't get a decent point guard they won't go anywhere, even with T-Mac and Yao. As for Orlando, they could split the MLE between a backup center and a swingman in case Hill goes down and they'd be in the playoffs, possibly even division champs.


----------



## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

What a lousy trade.

Maggette and the #2, that would make a special team.


----------



## WXHOOPS (Jan 15, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> When I saw the T-Mac deals I had Houston ranked a distant fourth behind Indiana, Phoenix, and the Clippers. After I thought about it for a while and I saw that a Houston trade was more and more likely to happen I began to warm up to the idea. The deal I propose is this:
> 
> T-Mac, Howard, DeClercq, Lue
> ...


No way in the world Francis will play in Orlando. Why would they want him anyway? Hell, he couldn't play with Yao, why would he play with Okafor ? If this deal goes down, and Francis somehow does play in Orlando, this will be one of the worst trades ever, in league history.


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

According to ESPN, the trade is a done deal except for the fact that Francis has informed the Rockets that he does not want to play for the Magic. Just great. Looks like we're going to have to work a 3rd team into the deal, or trade Francis seperately. People call T-Mac a whiner, this is a guy that averaged 16 points a night last season whining about where he's going to play.


----------



## WXHOOPS (Jan 15, 2004)

Agreed, Francis is garbage. Wonder where he will end up? This trade just has SUCK written all over it, unless Orlando has a 3rd team already in place...


----------



## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jokeaward</b>!
> What a lousy trade.
> 
> Maggette and the #2, that would make a special team.


Ummm, the Clippers already traded the #2 :uhoh: 

As for everybody else, when I made this trade I was obviously assuming that Francis would want to play with Orlando. I still rather do a trade with Phoenix or Indiana but my point was if we had to do a trade with Houston, this is what I'd do.


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>WXHOOPS</b>!
> Agreed, Francis is garbage. Wonder where he will end up? This trade just has SUCK written all over it, unless Orlando has a 3rd team already in place...


How much could Francis get in a trade? A good point guard is what I'd like to get for him if this whole thing goes down. Would Denver trade Andre Miller and a filler for Francis?


----------



## NateBishop3 (Jul 22, 2003)

wow... if THIS is the trade, the Magic got ripped off...


----------



## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

True. I forgot about that, but it couls be the #4. Livingston-Maggette-Okafor. That'd be nice.

If this trade goes down, Orlando ain't gonna be anything special this year. I wouldn't be surprised if they miss the playoffs. And I bet Okafor will be gone once his deal is done with this trade. 

Francis won't be good for this team.

Francis' deal is baaaad. It's worse than Jalen Rose's.


----------



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Francis for Arena and Stackhouse (SF)

Okafor
Stack
Cato
Cat
Arena


----------



## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballscientist</b>!
> Francis for Arena and Stackhouse (SF)
> 
> Okafor
> ...


No, Francis is such a ****ing awesome baller that he can pick and choose his team. He probably doesn't want to play with the ****ty Wizards.


----------



## CP26 (May 8, 2003)

Maybe Wizards can get in on this deal and send Stackhouse to Orlando?? 
BTW: Steve Francis lives right near me sort of, he lives somewhere in Silver Spring where I live.
Edit: ****ty wizards? Last year yes, but this year no. Last year was injury season for us.

Arenas
Francis/Hughes
Hughes/Iggy
Kwame
FA/Haywood


----------



## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>CP26</b>!
> Maybe Wizards can get in on this deal and send Stackhouse to Orlando??
> BTW: Steve Francis lives right near me sort of, he lives somewhere in Silver Spring where I live.
> Edit: ****ty wizards? Last year yes, but this year no. Last year was injury season for us.
> ...


I was just ranting about Francis being a primadonna *****, no disrespect to the Wiz


----------



## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

Ha it turns out the actual trade is exactly as I proposed it at the beginning, minus the pick  . Maybe there is still more to this deal that we don't know yet.


----------



## J Blaze (Jun 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Justice</b>!
> It is my post in MNA trade forum....
> 
> 
> ...


"Wow, I see a lot of "sore grape" pacers and suns fans here."

Exactly. I don't understand what people don't get. Maggette wanted more than Francis? What has he done that is greater than what Francis has done in Houston? Clippers haven't been anywhere near Houston's record even BEFORE Yao. McGrady also said he WANTED to come to HOUSTON as his FIRST choice. Not Indiana, Phoenix, or the Los Angeles Clippers. That had something to do with the trade also. The Magic took into consideration where McGrady wanted to play and added that into the deals that were offered to them. Regardless of what many people think McGrady has carried that franchise during the time he was there. Last year was horrid yeah I know. McGrady will redeem himself here in Houston. I just hope Charlotte doesn't mess up this trade. I'm loving your sig hobojoe


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>J Blaze</b>!
> I'm loving your sig hobojoe


Huh? You mean my avatar? Yeah, a little something I made earlier today, as I tried to learn how to use photoshop.


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

I must say I am extremely disappointed. I dont like Francis, Mobley, or Cato.

I dont really understand why they make this deal, especially if Phoenix, Clippers, or Indiana had a deal on the table.

We dont get any good draft picks, no young players for the future, no major potential cap space ... just a whole lot of mediocrity. Yippee.


----------



## Hollis (Jun 4, 2002)

> no major potential cap space


I'm pretty sure Cato only has a few years left on his deal...you never know, he could probably make the Eastern All-Star team...:laugh:


----------



## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> I must say I am extremely disappointed. I dont like Francis, Mobley, or Cato.
> 
> I dont really understand why they make this deal, especially if Phoenix, Clippers, or Indiana had a deal on the table.
> ...


They'll grow on you, especially Cato. Imagine a post tandem of Okafor and Cato, one of the best defensive combo's in the league. And a backcourt with Francis and Mobley may not be the smartest, but the talent is there. This team could make some noise in the East if Okafor can develop an offensive game sooner than expected.


----------



## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

That's a nice quote in your sig, Franchise, I really hope that's the way Francis feels. This is a business, and I hope he deals with this trade instead of demanding another trade.


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> 
> 
> They'll grow on you, especially Cato. Imagine a post tandem of Okafor and Cato, one of the best defensive combo's in the league. And a backcourt with Francis and Mobley may not be the smartest, but the talent is there. This team could make some noise in the East if Okafor can develop an offensive game sooner than expected.


I really think this is true. I already like Mobley quite a bit, and Cato too, but I can't stand Francis, even more if he decides to whine and demand a trade after getting traded to Orlando. My happiness in this deal hinges on us taking Okafor, because I've seen a lot of stuff saying we're going to take Howard now, and quite frankly that would really piss me off. Francis, Mobley and Cato are in their late 20s, if we're going to try and win with this group it's gotta be now.


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> 
> 
> They'll grow on you, especially Cato. Imagine a post tandem of Okafor and Cato, one of the best defensive combo's in the league. And a backcourt with Francis and Mobley may not be the smartest, but the talent is there. This team could make some noise in the East if Okafor can develop an offensive game sooner than expected.


I actually dont mind Mobley, but not at the expense of Tmac. But Mobley is what he is, an under-sized streaky SG who doesnt do a whole lot else, at least not consistently. And Cato is a career under-achiever that is a very, very average center at best. I think having Yao with him made him look a little better last season, but he still just is not very good. For a big C, his FG% is pretty low (or was last season), he isn't a fantastic rebounder nor shot blocker, and he has had injury and attitude problems in the past.

I then there is Francis who first off is already pouting about being traded and will have to come in and replace maybe the most popular player in Orlando franchise history and a future Hall Of Famer. And I firmly believe Francis is a true SG in a PG's body. He has proven not to be a very good team player nor all that great at running a team.

I still believe this is a terrible deal for Orlando.


----------



## edgaraven (Jun 22, 2004)

Hey y'all.. newbie to these boards. Was just doing some searches on info 'bout this T-Mac trade. I'm actually a Suns fan - wuz hoping McGrady would end up with us, but oh well. 

Now here's my question. 

Francis is clamoring now about not wanting to be in Orlando. Lots of folks are speculating that he might get traded to a third team. That got me to thinking.. who could that third team be? I've seen a lot of different guesses, like Seattle for Ray Allen, but that leaves Orlando with two SG and no PG. 

Then I thought.. why not Phoenix? The Suns are rumored to be looking at guys like Devin Harris in the draft, because they don't think the Brazilian kid Barbosa's really a true point, and they don't know if that Euro, Milos Vujanic, will come over this year. Phoenix could send Marion over straight up for Francis, or maybe send Marion and Barbosa for Francis.

I'm not a cap expert, so I don't if it works salary wise, but I think it does. After the trade and the draft, Orlando's starting 5 might look like this.

PG- Barbosa
SG- Mobley
SF- Marion
PF- Howard/Okafor
C- Cato

Then they'd have a bench of Drew Gooden, Pat Garrity, Grant Hill (if he's healthy), Bogans, and maybe Pachulia. They could focus on trying to get a more experienced PG in free-agency.

I think the downside to all of this for y'all is that you don't have that big name to draw the crowds. Francis is definitely a crowd pleaser, while Marion's just a solid small forward who quietly puts up all-star like numbers.

I'm not sure who else might make a trade. Maybe Boston? They could trade Paul Pierce and Marcus Banks for Francis and Gooden. Boston's got that Euro Welsch and Ricky Davis already, so adding Francis could give them the PG Ainge has wanted. Orlando could play Pierce at SF, draft Okafor or Howard at PF, and plug in Banks at PG. 

PG- Banks
SG- Mobley
SF- Pierce
PF- Howard/Okafor
C- Cato

That's all I've got. No rumors. Just some thoughts.


----------



## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

I'd be all over both of those scenarios, especially the Phoenix one since I think it's more realistic.


----------



## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Phoenix would never trade Marion straight up for Francis.

I would think that Gordon or Harris are probably going to be better than Francis anyway and are available at #7. No need to add a 27yr old immature malcontent who elbowed Amare after he posterized Yao and makes the max for 6 more years or so.

On top of it Colangelo said Barbosa is having a great summer and he can't immagine any PG at #7 being capable of beating out Leandro for the starting spot.

Barbosa has tons of untapped potential. He was so raw last season it isn't even funny even defensively. But he has great tools.

He could easily be the fastest player in the league and he definately has longer arms than any other PG in this league.

He made the most unbelievable steal I have ever seen in my life. I even think it was against Francis.

Barbosa has a tendency to fall for streetball moves. At least last season.
Francis pulled a crossover on Barbosa and he lost his footing and looked like was falling on his *** but he recovered quickly enough to poke the ball away while falling and going for the fastbreak even as far as I can remember.


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

The Latest rumor: Upon completing the deal with Houston, Orlando could ship an unhappy Steve Francis to Washington for Gilbert Arenas and a filler. My first thoughts are, if he won't play in Orlando, why would he play in Washington?


----------



## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> The Latest rumor: Upon completing the deal with Houston, Orlando could ship an unhappy Steve Francis to Washington for Gilbert Arenas and a filler. My first thoughts are, if he won't play in Orlando, why would he play in Washington?


exactly...washington is worse off than the magic...

plus with orlando..he could play with his 2 teammates...


----------



## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

He would play with Washington because he's from Maryland and that's where he went to college.


----------



## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> He would play with Washington because he's from Maryland and that's where he went to college.


oh..true..


----------

