# Is T-Mac really a superstar?



## De_dauntless

Is T-Mac really a superstar? He sure didn’t look like it last night against KG and Minnesota and in his other games. Is this guy hurt or is he rebelling against Doc? My take on it, from watching a couple of games it seems T-Mac is frustrated and rebelling against the Magic organization. This guy is playing so poorly and his team is losing and he is laughing. Is this guy for real? I think the Magic should trade his lazy tail and look for a replacement immediately.


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## MagnusPinus

Y, he is a superstar, maybe a MVP candidate... The mag.. really need chemistry..


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## carver401

T-Mac may be a superstar, but this guy will never win a championship. He has all the talent in the world, but a guy who laughs after being eliminated from the first round once again last year, and then last night is seen laughing it up on the bench while his team is being demolished and he has been completely shut down by a zone is just not a winner. He lacks the killer instict and fierce competiveness that seperates the legends from the great's.


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## MagnusPinus

> Originally posted by <b>carver401</b>!
> T-Mac may be a superstar, but this guy will never win a championship. He has all the talent in the world, but a guy who laughs after being eliminated from the first round once again last year, and then last night is seen laughing it up on the bench while his team is being demolished and he has been completely shut down by a zone is just not a winner. He lacks the killer instict and fierce competiveness that seperates the legends from the great's.



Let's wait... he is still young.. even MJ had won nothin' at his age.


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## thegza

> Originally posted by <b>carver401</b>!
> T-Mac may be a superstar, but this guy will never win a championship. He has all the talent in the world, but a guy who laughs after being eliminated from the first round once again last year, and then last night is seen laughing it up on the bench while his team is being demolished and he has been completely shut down by a zone is just not a winner. He lacks the killer instict and fierce competiveness that seperates the legends from the great's.


It's sad but I think I'm starting to think the same thing too.


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## De_dauntless

> Originally posted by <b>carver401</b>!
> T-Mac may be a superstar, but this guy will never win a championship.
> 
> I can’t agree with you in saying that T-Mac wouldn’t win a championship. However, what I can say is that if his attitude doesn’t change that possibility can be a reality. I think he needs to be a professional and come out and play every night and not give up. There have been players that have complained about the zone and about the system that their team runs. However, the players that have desired and are true professionals come out and play every night and gives a 100%. And this is what t-Mac is not giving.


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## walkon4

*hmm*

I agree.

I think he is soft at times. I see Tmac playing soft sometimes, often avoiding contact and playing weak defense. I dont think he has the killer instinct to say a Iverson does.

Again, Iverson is the perfect example of how an athlete should be. Heart, Soul, and desire on the floor. He isnt just shooting. He is hustling and helping his team as much as he can. Mcgrady just isn't.


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## jokeaward

He's a superstar.

Umm, he lost a GAME and laughed. I don't really care. The Magic were going to get blown out sometimes this year.

He's very competitive. HE came to play vs. Detroit, and if he had any help from anyone but Gooden, they would've taken game 2 and beaten DET in about 5. You could say Orlando went on runs, but you could just as well say McGrady went on runs. And he's not very selfish. 5 or 6 apg? Nice.

If later in the series he isn't as good as all of his other games, can you blame him? He's dragging the Magic by its leg (maybe it has a bum ankle lol) the whole series, and Detroit _was_ the 1 seed. They weren't really supposed to even get to seven games.


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## Mavs Dude

No doubt T-Mac is a superstar. I think he needs a better supporting cast. Yes Gooden and Giricek are good. I don't think Howard is that good. Gaines and Bogans are going to take a couple years to develop and they don't really have a good C.


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## jokeaward

MavsDude: You gotta keep that sig until April.


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## Ben1

*Re: hmm*



> Originally posted by <b>TheTruth34</b>!
> I agree.
> 
> I think he is soft at times. I see Tmac playing soft sometimes, often avoiding contact and playing weak defense. I dont think he has the killer instinct to say a Iverson does.
> 
> Again, Iverson is the perfect example of how an athlete should be. Heart, Soul, and desire on the floor. He isnt just shooting. He is hustling and helping his team as much as he can. Mcgrady just isn't.



But then again, not many athletes have the same desire and heart like Iverson.


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## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> Is T-Mac really a superstar? He sure didn’t look like it last night against KG and Minnesota and in his other games. Is this guy hurt or is he rebelling against Doc? My take on it, from watching a couple of games it seems T-Mac is frustrated and rebelling against the Magic organization. This guy is playing so poorly and his team is losing and he is laughing. Is this guy for real? I think the Magic should trade his lazy tail and look for a replacement immediately.


Usually players that are scoring champs, and sell a lot of merchandise, etc are considered "superstars".


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## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> Is T-Mac really a superstar? He sure didn’t look like it last night against KG and Minnesota and in his other games. Is this guy hurt or is he rebelling against Doc? My take on it, from watching a couple of games it seems T-Mac is frustrated and rebelling against the Magic organization. This guy is playing so poorly and his team is losing and he is laughing. Is this guy for real? I think the Magic should trade his lazy tail and look for a replacement immediately.


I wouldn't trade TMac. I think changes need to be made but the Magic must build around #1. However, this will require more bold moves from the GM and a coach who can instill some discipline into this team. First, the talent level needs to be upgraded. Gooden is turning out to be a little bit better than I thought but Giricek is nothing special. Hunter has all of the tools in the world but he'll never realize his potential with that complacent attitude. Howard is looking like the above average player that he is. No matter where he is you're basically going to get the same thing from him every night-15 and 8. He doesn't give you muc on D. That is solid but it isn't going to put Orlando over the top. Lue has actually been their most consistent player so far. However, outside of scoring he doesn't give you much either. Gaines and Bogans haven't produced as much as the Magic had hoped. While the Magic are having trouble scoring I think it is their defense that is atrocious. It's hard to hide a 5-10 PG in this league and that will always plague Orlando. Lue would be much better off as a 6th man or something. Giricek can't defend. Gooden is a solid defender. Howard can't really defend. TMac defends when he wants to. Outside of Gooden it is really a poor defensive team. I think they need to change their offense as well. It's basically s dump it in to TMac every possession kind of offense. TMac should be an integral part of the offense but there needs to be more ball movement. Everyone just seems to stand around and spot up when TMac has the ball. TMac is part of the problem too because he doesn't move at all when he doesn't have the ball. Players need to cut and slash to get better scoring opportunities. All of these changes will probably require the hiring of a new coach but they need to get more of a disciplinarian in there. Someone who will force TMac to become a more assertive player and a better leader. I think most of the team has taken on TMac's laid back persona and that isn't going to change unless a new coach is hired. TMac needs to do everything in his power to change his lazy habits. He needs to move without the ball. He needs to defend on every possession. He needs to contribute in other ways when he isn't scoring. A new coach and better talent are needed but most of all an attitude adjustment is required from TMac. Orlando isn't going anywhere if this doesn't happen.


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## mysterio

Yep, that's the T-Mac I was talking about earlier in my last post. To reiterate, he looks out for #1, and doesn't have the heart of a champion. To just throw up your hands and laugh at your failing team, and whine about zone D, a real champion will just work harder. And we can't use age as an excuse to his lack of killer instinct, he's been in the league almost as long as Kobe who we all know puts his A-game on whether his team is on a losing streak, or down by 20. If he didn't, they wouldn't have won 3 titles. T-Mac can easily be the best in the league, but he just doesn't push himself, they don't call him the "Big Sleep" for nothing.


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## Lurch

I have watched every Magic this year. Mcgrady is not a superstar so far this year, he has been shooting terrible. God forbid he pass the ball to the open teamate when he is double teamed.


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## HEATLUNATIC

STOP THESE RETARDED THREADS!!!:upset: 

ALL OF THEM ARE SUPER-STARS!!!

Shaq
Duncan
K.G.
T-Mac
Kobe
AI
VC
Starbury
Franchise
Dirk
Pierce
Payton
Kidd
J.O.
C-Webb

Thats NOT every SUPER-STAR in the league,but u get the point!!!:devil:


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## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>Lurch</b>!
> I have watched every Magic this year. Mcgrady is not a superstar so far this year, he has been shooting terrible. God forbid he pass the ball to the open teamate when he is double teamed.


You just said you have watched every Magic this year.... You said that he was being double teamed....you said his shooting has been terrible...

What do you expect his shooting to be... 95% shooting when being double teamed???


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>carver401</b>!
> T-Mac may be a superstar, but this guy will never win a championship. He has all the talent in the world, but a guy who laughs after being eliminated from the first round once again last year, and then last night is seen laughing it up on the bench while his team is being demolished and he has been completely shut down by a zone is just not a winner.


Not true at all. People handle in things in different ways. Not everyone bursts into tears on the spot. You have no idea whether he's eaten up to the point of being unable to sleep, or stressed out of his mind, etc.

Judging a person's psyche by something you see a moment after a good or bad event is amateur psychology at its worst. It's trying to make an assertion about something that none of us has any idea about, namely how much McGrady cares and how much this affects him. Some people are demonstrative, some people don't react at all (Duncan sure doesn't seem to care, after a loss), some people purposely overcompensate the other direction.

Just because his reaction doesn't match what you'd do, or what you think everyone should do, after a loss doesn't mean it doesn't bother him.

While it's a dramatic example, people talking about suiciders often say, "He/she seemed perfectly happy and outgoing...I had no idea he/she was so unhappy."

While that's obviously nothing to do with T-Mac, it goes to show that outward appearances means exactly nothing when judging what's going on underneath.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Lurch</b>!
> I have watched every Magic this year. Mcgrady is not a superstar so far this year, he has been shooting terrible. God forbid he pass the ball to the open teamate when he is double teamed.


Judging from what others who have watched all his games have said, he *has* passed plenty, and his teammates can't hit a shot. Therefore, he's taking more shots through double- and triple-teams.

No superstar can perform without somebody else who can hit shots, to keep defenses honest. Last year, he had Gordon Giricek who was a dead-eye shooter. Before that trade, he had Mike Miller, who was also a tremendous shooter.

This year, Giricek has been injured (and even Pat Garrity, another guy who might hit some shots, is injured).

Kobe Bryant should pay attention to McGrady's troubles right now...this is what it's like for a lone superstar guard against zone defenses. He should think hard about whether he really wants to leave Shaq's protective shadow.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Not true at all. People handle in things in different ways. Not everyone bursts into tears on the spot. You have no idea whether he's eaten up to the point of being unable to sleep, or stressed out of his mind, etc.
> 
> Judging a person's psyche by something you see a moment after a good or bad event is amateur psychology at its worst. It's trying to make an assertion about something that none of us has any idea about, namely how much McGrady cares and how much this affects him. Some people are demonstrative, some people don't react at all (Duncan sure doesn't seem to care, after a loss), some people purposely overcompensate the other direction.
> 
> Just because his reaction doesn't match what you'd do, or what you think everyone should do, after a loss doesn't mean it doesn't bother him.
> 
> While it's a dramatic example, people talking about suiciders often say, "He/she seemed perfectly happy and outgoing...I had no idea he/she was so unhappy."
> 
> While that's obviously nothing to do with T-Mac, it goes to show that outward appearances means exactly nothing when judging what's going on underneath.



Great post. Some of the things people post are just ridiculous, especially after 6 games in the season.

Orlando is struggling, not just Tmac. The entire team, besides Lue, has been just plain terrible.

There isn't much Tmac can do right now. He should be more aggressive, but he is going to need to learn how to play against the zone. He probably played against it in HS, but of course, that is a whole nother story. And he doesn't have the college experience against the zone to help him.

Doc needs to make changes to the offense. He has got Tmac stuck in the corner on offense and he is getting double-teamed as soon as the ball comes his way. His only option in this offense is to pass it back to Lue at the top of the 3 pt line, which is why Lue went for almost 30 lastnight.

I think right now, Doc is doing a bad job as a coach, Tmac is struggling mightily, Juwan Howard is even worse ... Drew Gooden isn't playing very well, Garrity and Giricek have been out. Shammond Williams is playing hard, but not shooting well. Britton Johnson should never have started. Donnell Harvey is out of shape after injury. Reece Gaines is not ready for the NBA, and still, neither is Steven Hunter.

Thank god for Tyronne Lue or Orlando would have lost to the Wolves by 70.

Oh, and of course, Tmac is a superstar. Gimme a break. He didnt accidentally score 32 pgg last season.

Maybe they are tanking the season for Dwight Howard .. (joke)


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## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Not true at all. People handle in things in different ways. Not everyone bursts into tears on the spot. You have no idea whether he's eaten up to the point of being unable to sleep, or stressed out of his mind, etc.
> 
> Judging a person's psyche by something you see a moment after a good or bad event is amateur psychology at its worst. It's trying to make an assertion about something that none of us has any idea about, namely how much McGrady cares and how much this affects him. Some people are demonstrative, some people don't react at all (Duncan sure doesn't seem to care, after a loss), some people purposely overcompensate the other direction.
> 
> Just because his reaction doesn't match what you'd do, or what you think everyone should do, after a loss doesn't mean it doesn't bother him.
> 
> While it's a dramatic example, people talking about suiciders often say, "He/she seemed perfectly happy and outgoing...I had no idea he/she was so unhappy."
> 
> While that's obviously nothing to do with T-Mac, it goes to show that outward appearances means exactly nothing when judging what's going on underneath.


Nice post.. What did you major in?


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> 
> Nice post.. What did you major in?


Cognitive Science and Computer Science. 

And thanks.


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## Duece Duece

> Kobe Bryant should pay attention to McGrady's troubles right now...this is what it's like for a lone superstar guard against zone defenses. He should think hard about whether he really wants to leave Shaq's protective shadow.





Well it's T-Mac's fault. If he would of stayed in Toronto with Vince, the both of them would be running thangs, but he CHOSE to go and be the Man. And don't give me that he wouldn't to be able to shine in Vince shadow BS. Because Even with Shaq, and All Star Guard Eddie Jones , Kobe shined.


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## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Cognitive Science and Computer Science.
> 
> And thanks.


bump++;

hehe.. I hate programming unless its something I really want to make


Yeah back on topic..

Whats T-mac up to? I don't understand... Are there any problems with the players and coach/management?

I wish they said something instead of just being too optomistic... and taking every loss as there will be another game and they will easily make the playoffs..


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Duece Duece</b>!
> 
> Well it's T-Mac's fault. If he would of stayed in Toronto with Vince, the both of them would be running thangs, but he CHOSE to go and be the Man.


Yes, and then players like Pippen, who don't choose to break up a successful partnership, get criticized for not being "The Man" and being second banana, etc.

It seems to me, players will be criticized regardless of what they do. If someone simply dislikes a guy, for whatever reason, any action the player takes will be the "wrong one," to that person.


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## Duece Duece

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, and then players like Pippen, who don't choose to break up a successful partnership, get criticized for not being "The Man" and being second banana, etc..







Thats the same thing that happening to Kobe now, He gets critizied for not being the Man on his own team. It's a shame that Pippen and Kobe gets hated on for that.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Duece Duece</b>!
> 
> Thats the same thing that happening to Kobe now, He gets critizied for not being the Man on his own team. It's a shame that Pippen and Kobe gets hated on for that.


I agree. Both people in a great duo bring things that the other would suffer without.

Appreciating players for what they did do seems like a better thing than to blame them for things they've never had a chance to really prove. No one gets the chance to prove how they'd do in every conceivable circumstance.


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## John

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Cognitive Science and Computer Science.
> 
> And thanks.


This guy is not from MIT for sure


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## Johnny Mac

Of course hes a superstar, but he really needs to learn how to move better without the ball or else these zone defense will continue to eat him up.


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## De_dauntless

> Originally posted by <b>HEATLUNATIC</b>!
> STOP THESE RETARDED THREADS!!!:upset:
> 
> ALL OF THEM ARE SUPER-STARS!!!
> 
> Shaq
> Duncan
> K.G.
> T-Mac
> Kobe
> AI
> VC
> Starbury
> Franchise
> Dirk
> Pierce
> Payton
> Kidd
> J.O.
> C-Webb
> 
> Thats NOT every SUPER-STAR in the league,but u get the point!!!:devil:




I think you must be joking, from the list you have given only a few of them can be consider superstars. Namely Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, AI, Garnett and Jason Kidd. The others I consider just good players. In my opinion to become a superstar you have to be successful and consistent over a period of time. In addition, you have to have the ability to improve your game all the time and make your team mates better. Moreover, when you take the court you must always wear your heart on your sleeve and never give up. These qualities I believe are necessary to be a superstar. Sorry if I have hurt anyone feeling out there


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## carver401

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Not true at all. People handle in things in different ways. Not everyone bursts into tears on the spot. You have no idea whether he's eaten up to the point of being unable to sleep, or stressed out of his mind, etc.
> 
> Judging a person's psyche by something you see a moment after a good or bad event is amateur psychology at its worst. It's trying to make an assertion about something that none of us has any idea about, namely how much McGrady cares and how much this affects him. Some people are demonstrative, some people don't react at all (Duncan sure doesn't seem to care, after a loss), some people purposely overcompensate the other direction.
> 
> Just because his reaction doesn't match what you'd do, or what you think everyone should do, after a loss doesn't mean it doesn't bother him.
> 
> While it's a dramatic example, people talking about suiciders often say, "He/she seemed perfectly happy and outgoing...I had no idea he/she was so unhappy."
> 
> While that's obviously nothing to do with T-Mac, it goes to show that outward appearances means exactly nothing when judging what's going on underneath.


This may all be true but the fact remains that Tracy McGrady needs to be a leader for the Magic, a player who will set the tone and say that losing is not acceptable. Even if it is tearing it up inside he needs to change the way he deals with it because it appears he doesn't care and the other players around him also begin to not be bothered by losing since their MVP candidate. Even in the other nights game he had began to get guys like Tyrone Lue laughing and seemingly not caring about them being massacred, where veterans like Juwan Howard were down on the bench visibly upset with the way things are going.

In order for the Magic to ever be successful they need a leader who will not only lead by example on the court, but also set positive examples off the court and set a high standered where being blown out is not acceptable and not a laughing matter.

Some people are born natural winners and natural leaders, I believe Tracy McGrady is neither.


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## BallBiologist

Lue was laughing with McGrady..You don't know what they were talking about..


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>carver401</b>!
> 
> 
> This may all be true but the fact remains that Tracy McGrady needs to be a leader for the Magic, a player who will set the tone and say that losing is not acceptable. Even if it is tearing it up inside he needs to change the way he deals with it because it appears he doesn't care and the other players around him also begin to not be bothered by losing since their MVP candidate. Even in the other nights game he had began to get guys like Tyrone Lue laughing and seemingly not caring about them being massacred, where veterans like Juwan Howard were down on the bench visibly upset with the way things are going.
> 
> In order for the Magic to ever be successful they need a leader who will not only lead by example on the court, but also set positive examples off the court and set a high standered where being blown out is not acceptable and not a laughing matter.
> 
> Some people are born natural winners and natural leaders, I believe Tracy McGrady is neither.


It is pretty ridiculous when people assume they really know what is going on on the bench and in those guys minds from the outside.

You have no idea how anyone on that team reacts to Tmac's laughing and you have no idea in what context Tmac was laughing.

Tmac has been leading this team since he arrived in Orlando and he still has a decade to make his legacy as a winner.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Of course hes a superstar, but he really needs to learn how to move better without the ball or else these zone defense will continue to eat him up.


He will learn. Tonight against Houston he already looks much better and has gotten more aggressive. He's too good to be held down for very long.

Once he figures it out and the team overall starts playing better, things will be fine. Hopefully that will happen sooner rather than later.


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## carver401

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> It is pretty ridiculous when people assume they really know what is going on on the bench and in those guys minds from the outside.
> 
> You have no idea how anyone on that team reacts to Tmac's laughing and you have no idea in what context Tmac was laughing.
> 
> Tmac has been leading this team since he arrived in Orlando and he still has a decade to make his legacy as a winner.


I do have an idea that I never see guys like Iverson, Kobe, or Jordan laughing on the bench as their team is blown out. 

T-Mac-Laughs and crack jokes in press conference after season ended by pistons in playoffs

Kobe- Visably seen crying on the bench in front of millions of viewers after being eliminated by the spurs

Kobe already has 3 championships and he still wants it more than Tracy


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>carver401</b>!
> 
> 
> I do have an idea that I never see guys like Iverson, Kobe, or Jordan laughing on the bench as their team is blown out.
> 
> T-Mac-Laughs and crack jokes in press conference after season ended by pistons in playoffs
> 
> Kobe- Visably seen crying on the bench in front of million of viewers after being elimanated by the spurs
> 
> Kobe already has 3 championships and he still wants it more than Tracy



So Kobe wants it more because he cried on the bench and Tmac was seen laughing for like 5 seconds on the bench? Gimme a break. You do realize that people all handle and deal with things different.

You are making generalizations to make Tmac look bad that you have no basis for making.


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## carver401

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> So Kobe wants it more because he cried on the bench and Tmac was seen laughing for like 5 seconds on the bench? Gimme a break. You do realize that people all handle and deal with things different.
> 
> You are making generalizations to make Tmac look bad that you have no basis for making.


Yeah your right Tracy is just as competive as anyone spare none including Jordan and Iverson, him laughing is just showing his inner distress.

I'm done arguing with Magic homers.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>carver401</b>!
> 
> Kobe already has 3 championships and he still wants it more than Tracy


Kobe was a hell of a lot closer to a championship when he lost. I doubt Kobe would have been crying if he lost to the #2 seed in the first round.

The Lakers have a far better team and thus have much higher expectations. I never saw Kobe crying when the Jazz eliminated the Lakers back when the Lakers were not considered championship contenders.

Either compare similar circumstances or don't bother making the comparisons. Comparing someone who just lost a Conference Finals with someone who just lost to a better team in the first round is totally meaningless.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>carver401</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah your right Tracy is just as competive as anyone spare none including Jordan and Iverson, him laughing is just showing his inner distress.


Does Iverson blowing off team and practices show *his* inner distress? It's cute that he makes a commercial portraying him being so upset at a loss that he dribbles all through the city, but his real life disdain for practices says a bit more about his desire.

Jordan rarely or never cried after a loss, at least in public. Does that mean he has very little fire compared to Bryant, who teared up for all to see?

I think you just want to nail McGrady, at all costs, no matter whether your "winner standard" makes sense across the board.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>carver401</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah your right Tracy is just as competive as anyone spare none including Jordan and Iverson, him laughing is just showing his inner distress.
> 
> I'm done arguing with Magic homers.


No one is arguing but you. I didn't say him laughing was showing inner distress, I am just saying you are generalizing about a 5 second snippet of Tmac laughing on the bench and coming to conclusions about his competitiveness, desire, or whatever else.

Tmac has quite a different demeanor than many players and it has often lead to generalizations about his work ethic, etc. Just because he has that "sleepy" look and he generally makes things look very easy on the court, people say he doesnt work harder than some other guys .. yet he has dramatically improved his game and body every single year.

You are making judgements on things that really have little basis, but you want to make him look bad, so you are magnifying those small instances.

Your final comment says a lot about yourself.


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## BallBiologist

Thread will be closed if anyone else mentions Tmac and Kobe in same thread..


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## HKF

I think T-Mac is dogging it to get Doc Rivers fired. I have never seen him play like this for this many games in Orlando. When you see Howard and Gooden, you would think this team should score in the 90's at least. They don't push the ball, or even seem to have any semblance of an offense. 

I hope he turns it around. The Magic are 1-6 for goodness sake. The only team worse is the 0-6 Heat.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> Thread will be closed if anyone else mentions Tmac and Kobe in same thread..


Nope, posts have been and will continue to be deleted, if they get into Kobe-TMac comparisons.


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## Im The One

I dont think he was happy the other night, he looked real upset to me... couldnt you see it in his eyes?:uhoh: 

In all seriousness T-mac hasnt shown the leadership it takes to get his team to the next level. He has the talent around him, but he doesnt always look like he wants it.

So to answer the question yes he's a superstar and a top talent but it takes more then talent to win in this game. He hasnt shown it as of yet. I dont recall any clutch situations the Magic where in that I found myself saying "T-Mac just wants it more than anyone tonight". His performace against Minny was pathethic, and his game tonight wasnt much better. Your telling me a players with Tracy's abilities can only get 10 shots up, when his team needs at least 20+ points from him. That's just pathetic.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Im The One</b>!
> I dont think he was happy the other night, he looked real upset to me... couldnt you see it in his eyes?:uhoh:
> 
> In all seriousness T-mac hasnt shown the leadership it takes to get his team to the next level. He has the talent around him, but he doesnt always look like he wants it.
> 
> So to answer the question yes he's a superstar and a top talent but it takes more then talent to win in this game. He hasnt shown it as of yet. I dont recall any clutch situations the Magic where in that I found myself saying "T-Mac just wants it more than anyone tonight". His performace against Minny was pathethic, and his game tonight was much better. Your telling me a players with Tracy's abilities can only get 10 shots up, when his team needs at least 20+ points from him. That's just pathetic.



You can blame him but you also need to blame the coaching staff. He is working within the offensive system Doc Rivers has put into place.


----------



## John

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> You can blame him but you also need to blame the coaching staff. He is working within the offensive system Doc Rivers has put into place.


Blame his limited pffensive reiptore instead.

learn to be an pff-the ball player for once. Just freaking stand outside the 3pt line made you a loser.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> Blame his limited pffensive reiptore instead.
> 
> learn to be an pff-the ball player for once. Just freaking stand outside the 3pt line made you a loser.


Yeah, he is real limited, limited to the tune of 32ppg and the highest scoring average in a decade. Unlike some players, he is attempting to play within the offense his coach has set down, which to this point, isn't working. Tmac deserves the blame, because he isn't hitting the shots he is getting, but at the same time, Doc Rivers' offense is just not working and not putting people in the right places.

Everyone can come out of the woodwork and get their bashes in while he is struggling. As soon as things are back to normal all the haters will return to their caves.


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> Yeah, he is real limited, limited to the tune of 32ppg and the highest scoring average in a decade. Unlike some players, he is attempting to play within the offense his coach has set down, which to this point, isn't working. Tmac deserves the blame, because he isn't hitting the shots he is getting, but at the same time, Doc Rivers' offense is just not working and not putting people in the right places.
> 
> Everyone can come out of the woodwork and get their bashes in while he is struggling. As soon as things are back to normal all the haters will return to their caves.


From the games I've seen, Tmac is really trying hard to be a passer. Hes doing a pretty good job of it, but in the process whenever he gets an open shot its like he hesitates because hes thinking "should I pass or shoot" and the times he does shoot its not as fluid as normal because there was that hesitation. 

Once he gets better off the ball, and learns when to pass and when to shoot, he'll be deadly. Until then, the Magic will struggle unless they get another all star.


----------



## bballlife

> Originally posted by <b>carver401</b>!
> 
> 
> This may all be true but the fact remains that Tracy McGrady needs to be a leader for the Magic, a player who will set the tone and say that losing is not acceptable. Even if it is tearing it up inside he needs to change the way he deals with it because it appears he doesn't care and the other players around him also begin to not be bothered by losing since their MVP candidate. Even in the other nights game he had began to get guys like Tyrone Lue laughing and seemingly not caring about them being massacred, where veterans like Juwan Howard were down on the bench visibly upset with the way things are going.
> 
> In order for the Magic to ever be successful they need a leader who will not only lead by example on the court, but also set positive examples off the court and set a high standered where being blown out is not acceptable and not a laughing matter.
> 
> Some people are born natural winners and natural leaders, I believe Tracy McGrady is neither.



Carver is exactly right here, anyone who disagrees does not understand. Mcgrady has made excuse after excuse throughout the years, and has never proven to be the leader some believe he is.


----------



## MVPlaya

I think you need to just wait.. cuz I think once t-mac gets his game together ya'll gonna jump on his nuts again.


----------



## carver401

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe was a hell of a lot closer to a championship when he lost. I doubt Kobe would have been crying if he lost to the #2 seed in the first round.
> 
> The Lakers have a far better team and thus have much higher expectations. I never saw Kobe crying when the Jazz eliminated the Lakers back when the Lakers were not considered championship contenders.
> 
> Either compare similar circumstances or don't bother making the comparisons. Comparing someone who just lost a Conference Finals with someone who just lost to a better team in the first round is totally meaningless.


Maybe Kobe wasn't crying, but he sure as hell wasn't laughing in the press conference after blowing a 3-1 seris lead like Mac was.
If you can show me another great player who has won in this league who laughs at the last press conference of the year after being eliminated I won't say another word.

Also, you Mac supportes have never answered is Tracy being a good team leader by expressing indifference(I don't care whats is going on inside his head the fact remains he shows indifference) to losing and then complaning afterwords because he doesn't have enough help (which is true, but is better left unsaid) or he doesn't like the new zone rules cry: Poor Tracy)

I apoligize for the Homer comment I was just tired and was going to sleep so I said I'm done.


----------



## carver401

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> Blame his limited pffensive reiptore instead.
> 
> learn to be an pff-the ball player for once. Just freaking stand outside the 3pt line made you a loser.


Oh c'mon Tracy is the most complete and talented offensive player in the world, spare perhaps number 8 in LA. His off the ball movement could be improved but that will come after he discovers that is the most effective way to beat these zones.


----------



## De_dauntless

Well T-Mac really showed that he is not superstar material once again against the Rockets last night. I am not sure what he trying to prove but damn he is stinking it up of late. He seems to have no really sense of purpose out there and no desire whatsoever. To me this show he is no superstar. Now if I was a novice to the game and I was watching the Magic games I would truly believe that Lue is the leader of the team. T-Mac just isn’t bringing it this season.


----------



## BallBiologist

Give him time or a new coach. He already has the talent. Just needs a little improvement and adjustment..


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> Well T-Mac really showed that he is not superstar material once again against the Rockets last night. I am not sure what he trying to prove but damn he is stinking it up of late. He seems to have no really sense of purpose out there and no desire whatsoever. To me this show he is no superstar. Now if I was a novice to the game and I was watching the Magic games I would truly believe that Lue is the leader of the team. T-Mac just isn’t bringing it this season.


He is a superstar. Superstardom is a product of popularity and a product of talent. TMac has both qualities in abundance. There are probably only 7-8 superstars (true ones) in the league and TMac is definately one of them. I'm not saying he's the best player in the league or anything but he's definately a superstar. Offensively, he'll still best one of the top 3 players when he gets his act together. However, his laziness in other aspects of the game is why he hovers around 5-6 among the best players in the game when he could be top 3. He doesn't seem to have that will to win like AI and Kobe do. He could always play better D and make more hustle plays but he seems content getting 30 ppg. It's hard to change lazy habits but Vince Carter did. He was alot like Tracy when he first came into the league but Vince has developed a killer instinct and a will to win. There is still hope for Tracy and that is why I would never trade him.


----------



## Priest

He is a superstar no doubt about that but he might not be a winner..imnot going to base everything cause of a couple of messups but damn tmac u r gettin paid millions dont ***** and complain about the zone dosomething about it find other ways to score....that what superstars are supposed to do...you dont have that "C" on ur chest for nothing...I was so mad with him his attitude and everything..he was so blah he didnt even try and then he was on the bench laughing what kind of leader is that? Tome now the Kobe vs Tmac debate is over in my mind...atleast Kobe shows deetermination to win


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>Priest</b>!
> He is a superstar no doubt about that but he might not be a winner..imnot going to base everything cause of a couple of messups but damn tmac u r gettin paid millions dont ***** and complain about the zone dosomething about it find other ways to score....that what superstars are supposed to do...you dont have that "C" on ur chest for nothing...I was so mad with him his attitude and everything..he was so blah he didnt even try and then he was on the bench laughing what kind of leader is that?


I agree with the first part. He's now the captain of his basketball team and he needs to show more maturity and leadership on the basketball court. I think he needs to show more effort and determination in other aspects of the game besides scoring because that will have an impact on what other players do. Orlando has a young team and those players will likely try to model their games after TMac. He needs to show a better work ethic for their sake. I think he's also got to stop mouthing off to the media. He seems to take everything to the press when he struggles and those guys will just take what he says and run with it. They're not looking out for him. Most of what he says ends up serving as bulletin board material for someone else. He really needs to mature as a player before he takes that next step forward (i.e nba championship/conteder). Once he does sky is the limit.


----------



## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>Priest</b>!
> He is a superstar no doubt about that but he might not be a winner..imnot going to base everything cause of a couple of messups but damn tmac u r gettin paid millions dont ***** and complain about the zone dosomething about it find other ways to score....that what superstars are supposed to do...you dont have that "C" on ur chest for nothing...I was so mad with him his attitude and everything..he was so blah he didnt even try and then he was on the bench laughing what kind of leader is that? Tome now the Kobe vs Tmac debate is over in my mind...atleast Kobe shows deetermination to win


I agree with what pinball says but to say Kobe is better than McGrady? Lets not get into that debate. Kobe had 3 allstars future hall of famers on his team not to mention shaq, the most dominant player in the league.. zone is nothing to them..


----------



## Nevus

I like McGrady as a player but I don't see him as a strong leader or a "winner." He's young, so this can change. But right now I don't think he is a mature professional as a competitor. Hopefully he will realize what it takes while he's still young enough to do it.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> Is T-Mac really a superstar? He sure didn?t look like it last night against KG and Minnesota and in his other games. Is this guy hurt or is he rebelling against Doc? My take on it, from watching a couple of games it seems T-Mac is frustrated and rebelling against the Magic organization. This guy is playing so poorly and his team is losing and he is laughing. Is this guy for real? I think the Magic should trade his lazy tail and look for a replacement immediately.


Tmac is definately a superstar. Is he a leader? That would be a better question. Tmac should be the one without a smile on his face. There's nothing funny about losing games, especially the way the Magic have been hammered by teams like the Chicago Bulls. A poor attitude and downplaying the seriousness of the Magics woes is not the way to lead.

His productivity has decreased, but I don't doubt he will be able to bounce back. IMO, this is all a result of attitude. Once Tracy get's his head right, things will go back to normal. He's gotta set an example for his teammates that says, we're down but we wont be for long.


----------



## Priest

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree with what pinball says but to say Kobe is better than McGrady? Lets not get into that debate. Kobe had 3 allstars future hall of famers on his team not to mention shaq, the most dominant player in the league.. zone is nothing to them..


of course but this isnt about zone defense this is about the determination that kobe has over tmac he shows the will to win through everything


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Priest</b>!
> 
> 
> of course but this isnt about zone defense this is about the determination that kobe has over tmac he shows the will to win through everything


:yes:


----------



## Mavs Dude

> Originally posted by <b>jokeaward</b>!
> MavsDude: You gotta keep that sig until April.


Why would I change it?


----------



## BallBiologist

*Re: Re: Is T-Mac really a superstar?*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> He's gotta set an example for his teammates that says, we're down but we wont be for long.


He's been saying that.. I am sure of it... you can tell during the timeouts.. its just that they dont have any good plays to run to get him an open shot.. I do think he needs to be a little aggressive but there has to be a reason behind why he is not stepping up and driving to the basket like he did last year....


----------



## De_dauntless

T-mac still isn't getting it done and I believe that his superstar status is going to be under threat for the rest of the season. The rest of guys are contributing I think T-Mac has to prove that he deserve his status but actually winning a game soon. Or else I think he will his status.


----------



## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> T-mac still isn't getting it done and I believe that his superstar status is going to be under threat for the rest of the season. The rest of guys are contributing I think T-Mac has to prove that he deserve his status but actually winning a game soon. Or else I think he will his status.


Have you been watching the previous games.. Spurs game..he had to play 99% of the game..when he got rest for like 30 seconds in 4th quarter..he had to come right back out after magic blew a 5 point lead and then he was tired as heeck running back and forth... YOu cant expect him to play back to back games and win them all when the teammates aren't doing a good job..

Howard was horrible in spurs game and gooden was horrible in mavs game..

McGrady is doing all he can but the team isn't helping out enough..


----------



## Sir Magic

Tracy McGrady can't do it on his own, besides tell the truth when he does make good passes his teammate will fumble it or miss the lay in.
Kobe on the other hand has Shaq, GP, Mailman
sigh that should speak for itself



Oh Yeah T-Mac is all superstar even with a sorry team.


----------



## rebelsun

Tracy McGrady IS a superstar and is Top 5 player in this league; he just has nothing to work with this year. He has a bunch of inexperienced, but talented kids that rely on him to generate the majority of the offense.


----------



## De_dauntless

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> Tracy McGrady IS a superstar and is Top 5 player in this league; he just has nothing to work with this year. He has a bunch of inexperienced, but talented kids that rely on him to generate the majority of the offense.



Are u kidding me this is basically the same team as last season minus Armstong and Garrity who is injured. I am saying that T-Mac is either underachieving or is playing at his level. Who knows what his level is. Is it superstar (all star) playing or just an average NBA player. A sucessful season or 2 doesn't make u a superstar or a couple of pretty moves. A superstar brings it everynight even if his teams get beaten and T-mac isn't doing that.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Are u kidding me this is basically the same team as last season minus Armstong and Garrity who is injured. I am saying that T-Mac is either underachieving or is playing at his level. Who knows what his level is. Is it superstar (all star) playing or just an average NBA player. A sucessful season or 2 doesn't make u a superstar or a couple of pretty moves. A superstar brings it everynight even if his teams get beaten and T-mac isn't doing that.


Questioning whether or not McGrady is a superstar is just plain moronic. Of course he is a superstar. An average NBA player does not average 32 ppg over the course of a season, the highest scoring average in quite a while.

This is not the same team as last year. 8 new players and 3 rookies on the team (was 4 with Britton Johnson starting and then getting cute). They took a risk picking up Howard with Gooden already around and it has not payed off. And Garrity is a big loss because he is by far the best shooter on the team.

Tmac isn't bringing it every night? How so? Have you even watched the games.

Is it Tmac's fault Juwan Howard is having his worst season of his career? Is it Tmac's fault Giricek's numbers are down from last year and he was out for 7 or 8 games earlier this season? Is it Tmac's fault the team has the worst interior defense in the league? Is it Tmac's fault the team is giving up 20 offensive rebounds to many teams? Is it Tmac's fault Gooden has played only 4 or 5 good games this season? Is it Tmac's fault the team's starting center at the beginning of the season isn't even playing now? Is it Tmac's fault that Donnell Harvey has seriously underachieved this season? Is it Tmac's fault Reece Gaines and Keith Bogans are giving almost nothing to the team?

McGrady has scored 50 in a game and the team cant win. He's grabbed 15 boards and the team cant win. He's gotten 9 assists and the team cant win.

Until Tmac's teammates earn some respect, Tmac is going to be able to do very little offensively facing constant triple teams. He also takes about 5 or 6 shots each game with less than 3 or 4 seconds on the shot clock.

You should try watching the games before you judge this team and Tmac. Tmac is doing everything he can.


----------



## De_dauntless

I hate disappoint u but i am from florida i thing that i have watched a few Magic games in my time and this season as well. T-mac isn't giving it his all, he isnt being asked to guard each team best perimeter player. All he being to asked to do is to be a superstar that he thinks he is and I guess u as well. But sadly to say he isnt doing that i believe that he has only played well in 3 whole games for the season. Is that good for a "superstar" u tell me.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> I hate disappoint u but i am from florida i thing that i have watched a few Magic games in my time and this season as well. T-mac isn't giving it his all, he isnt being asked to guard each team best perimeter player. All he being to asked to do is to be a superstar that he thinks he is and I guess u as well. But sadly to say he isnt doing that i believe that he has only played well in 3 whole games for the season. Is that good for a "superstar" u tell me.


Well, you are completely incorrect. And he has been asked to guard the opposing team's best player many times and has shut them down. Unfortunately, shutting the guy down doesnt help much when your team can't grab an defensive rebound.

Tmac is absolutely a superstar. Nobody will be saying anything once he's got a real team around him.

He is the only guy, the *only* guy on this team creating shots for others.


----------



## De_dauntless

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, you are completely incorrect. And he has been asked to guard the opposing team's best player many times and has shut them down. Unfortunately, shutting the guy down doesnt help much when your team can't grab an defensive rebound.
> 
> Tmac is absolutely a superstar. Nobody will be saying anything once he's got a real team around him.
> 
> He is the only guy, the *only* guy on this team creating shots for others.



I think u need to get real, t mac hasn't stop anyone defensively in years probably when he was in Toronto. I think u need to check his record in Toronto b4 he came to the Magic. U would find he has more blocks and steals while in Toronto. Tonite he had a great game, i don't mind that he didnt shoot well but he has able to grab some rebounds and dish some assists. Now that is the effort he need to forward every night to maintain his so call "superstar" status.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> 
> I think u need to get real, t mac hasn't stop anyone defensively in years probably when he was in Toronto. I think u need to check his record in Toronto b4 he came to the Magic. U would find he has more blocks and steals while in Toronto. Tonite he had a great game, i don't mind that he didnt shoot well but he has able to grab some rebounds and dish some assists. Now that is the effort he need to forward every night to maintain his so call "superstar" status.


That is ridiculous. Tmac has shut a lot of guys down this year. He did it again tonight on Penny who was lighting up Gordon Giricek. 

Tmac's effort tonight wasn't any different than other games this yaer. But now the team pulled it out, so you say he gave enough. His teammates playing with some confidence is what won this game.

I think you are the one who needs to get real. No matter what has happened this year, you are in the minority thinking Tmac is not a superstar.


----------



## BallBiologist

Do they not watch the games..how many times has tmac blocked guys in crucial positions...how many times has he gotten the steals...


----------



## De_dauntless

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> That is ridiculous. Tmac has shut a lot of guys down this year. He did it again tonight on Penny who was lighting up Gordon Giricek.
> 
> Tmac's effort tonight wasn't any different than other games this yaer. But now the team pulled it out, so you say he gave enough. His teammates playing with some confidence is what won this game.
> 
> I think you are the one who needs to get real. No matter what has happened this year, you are in the minority thinking Tmac is not a superstar.


Just because I maybe in the minority thinking that he is a not superstar doesn't make me wrong. I think people today make too much of players that are basically good players (average players) and make them into superstars. Players that are superstars in the NBA are IMO Duncan, Shaq althought I dont like him lol, Garnett and Kobe and that is in no particular order.


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> That is ridiculous. Tmac has shut a lot of guys down this year. <b>He did it again tonight on Penny who was lighting up Gordon Giricek. </b>
> 
> Tmac's effort tonight wasn't any different than other games this yaer. But now the team pulled it out, so you say he gave enough. His teammates playing with some confidence is what won this game.
> 
> I think you are the one who needs to get real. No matter what has happened this year, you are in the minority thinking Tmac is not a superstar.


You saw what I saw tonight! Man, Penny was just going crazy, I think he had 16 points in the first quarter. TMac was a crazy man on defense tonight.

You'll find some of us BBall fans do have direct tv, and do watch as many games as we can, and we do try to be fair to all of the "superstars" in the league, which imo includes TMac.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> 
> 
> Just because I maybe in the minority thinking that he is a not superstar doesn't make me wrong. I think people today make too much of players that are basically good players (average players) and make them into superstars. Players that are superstars in the NBA are IMO Duncan, Shaq althought I dont like him lol, Garnett and Kobe and that is in no particular order.


So I guess all of the NBA was wrong in putting him as an All-NBA player.

Like I said, if Tmac had a decent team around him nobody would be dogging him. But like every other superstar, when the team wins you get all the credit, when the team loses you get all the blame.

Orlando's record this season has clearly not been all Tmac's fault. It is unfortunate you can't see that.


----------



## De_dauntless

Damn in my rush I forgot mt main dawg AI and oh yeah Kidd


----------



## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> 
> 
> Just because I maybe in the minority thinking that he is a not superstar doesn't make me wrong. I think people today make too much of players that are basically good players (average players) and make them into superstars. Players that are superstars in the NBA are IMO Duncan, Shaq althought I dont like him lol, Garnett and Kobe and that is in no particular order.


See, your just another lakers fan and you are entitled to your opinion.. McGrady is definitely ABOVE average..otherwise he wouldn't have the top selling shoes..jerseys...etc. he is just surrounded by a terrible supporting cast (unless they start winning a lot more games)..


----------



## De_dauntless

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> So I guess all of the NBA was wrong in putting him as an All-NBA player.
> 
> Like I said, if Tmac had a decent team around him nobody would be dogging him. But like every other superstar, when the team wins you get all the credit, when the team loses you get all the blame.
> 
> Orlando's record this season has clearly not been all Tmac's fault. It is unfortunate you can't see that.



This team is playing in the East for crying out loud. This roster is darn good for the East. As I said there are only about 7 true superstars in the NBA, I guess some other persons had to place on the all NBA players list. But hey it is not my fault that he isnt a superstar. All I want from T-Mac is that he plays his heart out and give his best and if his best is of superstar quality i am not afraid to say that i was wrong about him. But until that time comes I still feel that he doesnt belong there.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> This team is playing in the East for crying out loud. This roster is darn good for the East. As I said there are only about 7 true superstars in the NBA, I guess some other persons had to place on the all NBA players list. But hey it is not my fault that he isnt a superstar. All I want from T-Mac is that he plays his heart out and give his best and if his best is of superstar quality i am not afraid to say that i was wrong about him. But until that time comes I still feel that he doesnt belong there.


Roster is great on paper. On the court is a different story.

Go ahead and try to answer yes to any of these -

Is it Tmac's fault Juwan Howard is having his worst season of his career? Is it Tmac's fault Giricek's numbers are down from last year and he was out for 7 or 8 games earlier this season? Is it Tmac's fault the team has the worst interior defense in the league? Is it Tmac's fault the team is giving up 20 offensive rebounds to many teams? Is it Tmac's fault Gooden has played only 4 or 5 good games this season? Is it Tmac's fault the team's starting center at the beginning of the season isn't even playing now? Is it Tmac's fault that Donnell Harvey has seriously underachieved this season? Is it Tmac's fault Reece Gaines and Keith Bogans are giving almost nothing to the team?

I'm not saying Tmac isn't to blame at all, but there are a dozen other factors.

You are not wrong because you are against the majority, you are wrong just because you are wrong.


----------



## De_dauntless

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> 
> 
> See, your just another lakers fan and you are entitled to your opinion.. McGrady is definitely ABOVE average..otherwise he wouldn't have the top selling shoes..jerseys...etc. he is just surrounded by a terrible supporting cast (unless they start winning a lot more games)..


Man dont diss me like that I ain't no Laker fan I happen to like Kobe game but don't call me a Laker fan. My team is Chicago and will always be Chicago. Just cuz I don't think T-Mac is a superstar doesn't make me a Laker fan.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> 
> 
> Man dont diss me like that I ain't no Laker fan I happen to like Kobe game but don't call me a Laker fan. My team is Chicago and will always be Chicago. Just cuz I don't think T-Mac is a superstar doesn't make me a Laker fan.


Coincidentally it always seems to be the Kobe fans dogging Tmac.


----------



## De_dauntless

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> Roster is great on paper. On the court is a different story.
> 
> Go ahead and try to answer yes to any of these -
> 
> Is it Tmac's fault Juwan Howard is having his worst season of his career? Is it Tmac's fault Giricek's numbers are down from last year and he was out for 7 or 8 games earlier this season? Is it Tmac's fault the team has the worst interior defense in the league? Is it Tmac's fault the team is giving up 20 offensive rebounds to many teams? Is it Tmac's fault Gooden has played only 4 or 5 good games this season? Is it Tmac's fault the team's starting center at the beginning of the season isn't even playing now? Is it Tmac's fault that Donnell Harvey has seriously underachieved this season? Is it Tmac's fault Reece Gaines and Keith Bogans are giving almost nothing to the team?
> 
> I'm not saying Tmac isn't to blame at all, but there are a dozen other factors.
> 
> You are not wrong because you are against the majority, you are wrong just because you are wrong.


Ok I didn't want to do this but here goes. Now last season Kobe was in a similar position as T-mac finds himself in. There was no Shaq and Kobe had to take the burden of the team on his shoulders. Are u telling me that the Magic team is not better than Fisher, Walker, George, Horry and Kobe. The Lakers didn't win many games in the beginning of the season and Kobe played his heart out every night. That is what i am speaking about a superstar has heart and I am sorry to say T-Mac doesnt of right now.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> 
> 
> Ok I didn't want to do this but here goes. Now last season Kobe was in a similar position as T-mac finds himself in. There was no Shaq and Kobe had to take the burden of the team on his shoulders. Are u telling me that the Magic team is not better than Fisher, Walker, George, Horry and Kobe. The Lakers didn't win many games in the beginning of the season and Kobe played his heart out every night. That is what i am speaking about a superstar has heart and I am sorry to say T-Mac doesnt of right now.


No, the Magic team is not any better. On paper they are, but when every other guy on the team besides Tmac is playing below average, what is he supposed to do?

Difference in the Lakers team and Magic team, Lakers team had veterans and guys who can play defense. Orlando has a young, inexperienced team with a bunch of guys who are offensive players who cant play a lick of defense or grab any rebounds.

You have eloquently avoided any question or point i've made.


----------



## De_dauntless

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> No, the Magic team is not any better. On paper they are, but when every other guy on the team besides Tmac is playing below average, what is he supposed to do?
> 
> Difference in the Lakers team and Magic team, Lakers team had veterans and guys who can play defense. Orlando has a young, inexperienced team with a bunch of guys who are offensive players who cant play a lick of defense or grab any rebounds.
> 
> You have eloquently avoided any question or point i've made.


I see where u are going and I am not avoiding your points. I agree that the team isn't playing to their true potential. However, I just want you to understand my definition of a superstar in the NBA. To me a superstar has to play with heart give his all to his team. Do whatever, it takes to get the job done and to me T-mac isn't doing that at least not yet. Maybe I am too harsh on the guy but when I look at guys of the past MJ, Magic and Bird. It hurts to call guys like T-Mac superstars when they don't put it on the line like those guys did.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> 
> 
> I see where u are going and I am not avoiding your points. I agree that the team isn't playing to their true potential. However, I just want you to understand my definition of a superstar in the NBA. To me a superstar has to play with heart give his all to his team. Do whatever, it takes to get the job done and to me T-mac isn't doing that at least not yet. Maybe I am too harsh on the guy but when I look at guys of the past MJ, Magic and Bird. It hurts to call guys like T-Mac superstars when they don't put it on the line like those guys did.


Again, it is funny someone like yourself feels you have the right to judge a player's heart or desire. I am getting so tired of completely baseless arguments like that.

Tmac has done nothing show he has no "heart" as you say. Most people are basing Tmac's "lack of heart" on one stupid comment he made in a miserable situation.

I very rarely say anything concrete on here, for a reason, but Tracy McGrady is an NBA superstar. No doubt.


----------



## De_dauntless

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> Again, it is funny someone like yourself feels you have the right to judge a player's heart or desire. I am getting so tired of completely baseless arguments like that.
> 
> Tmac has done nothing show he has no "heart" as you say. Most people are basing Tmac's "lack of heart" on one stupid comment he made in a miserable situation.
> 
> I very rarely say anything concrete on here, for a reason, but Tracy McGrady is an NBA superstar. No doubt.


I am not coming to a conclusion based on what T-Mac has said in the past. I judge a player in his actions on the court and nothing else. I am certain that you have seen AI played and if you wanted to see heart now that is heart. He plays hard on every play, that is what I am talking about. Does T-Mac plays like that? If he does then I will admit he is a superstar. Heart is not something you can but in a store it is something that comes from within and your boy doesn't plain and simple.


----------



## shobe42

to say TMac is not a superstar is beyond ludicrous

now if u say TMac is not a winner u have a good argument


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> 
> 
> I am not coming to a conclusion based on what T-Mac has said in the past. I judge a player in his actions on the court and nothing else. I am certain that you have seen AI played and if you wanted to see heart now that is heart. He plays hard on every play, that is what I am talking about. Does T-Mac plays like that? If he does then I will admit he is a superstar. Heart is not something you can but in a store it is something that comes from within and your boy doesn't plain and simple.


Tmac plays hard every game. People have said he doesnt since he came into the league because of his demeanor. You don't do the things he has done and not play with heart and play hard.

If Iverson is your measuring stick for heart, then AI is the only superstar in the league because obviously no one matches him that department.


----------



## De_dauntless

> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> to say TMac is not a superstar is beyond ludicrous
> 
> now if u say TMac is not a winner u have a good argument


In your opinion what qualities does it take to be a superstar and then maybe I can see why a consider T-mac a superstar.


----------



## shobe42

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> If Iverson is your measuring stick for heart, then AI is the only superstar in the league because obviously no one matches him that department.


thats not true. kobe does for one.
gary payton does. id say duncan does. mj did. and im sure theres more.

tmac has a team up 3-1 then loses and in the game 5 and 7 hardly does a damn thing thats lack of hart.


----------



## shobe42

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> 
> 
> In your opinion what qualities does it take to be a superstar and then maybe I can see why a consider T-mac a superstar.


all nba consistently

highest scorer since Mike.

dont get me wrong. ask anybody, im by no means a tmac fan, but to say he isnt a superstar is a joke. 

but after kobe and duncan and shaq i'd say he can play up to the level of anybody in the L. 

obviously he doesnt a lot, but he still then on his bad days is all star quality.


----------



## De_dauntless

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Tmac plays hard every game. People have said he doesnt since he came into the league because of his demeanor. You don't do the things he has done and not play with heart and play hard.
> 
> If Iverson is your measuring stick for heart, then AI is the only superstar in the league because obviously no one matches him that department. [/QUOTE
> 
> 
> 
> Now Duncan probably his a lesser demeanor than T-Mac but you can see that he wants to win and he plays with that same intensity and heart like AI does.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> 
> Now Duncan probably his a lesser demeanor than T-Mac but you can see that he wants to win and he plays with that same intensity and heart like AI does.


Duncan never looks like he is playing with any intensity at all. The only reason you make that judgement between the two players is because Duncan has been on good teams and his teams have been much more successful. I'm not discounting Duncan, because he is the Spurs, but there is no visible reason to say Duncan is playing any harder than Tmac.

I think you are skewed by some biases.

I'm not gonna waste any more time arguing about anybody's heart on the court because it is just plain stupid for any of us to assume we know how much heart as guy has or how much effort he is really putting out on the court.


----------



## De_dauntless

> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> 
> 
> all nba consistently
> 
> highest scorer since Mike.
> 
> dont get me wrong. ask anybody, im by no means a tmac fan, but to say he isnt a superstar is a joke.
> 
> but after kobe and duncan and shaq i'd say he can play up to the level of anybody in the L.
> 
> obviously he doesnt a lot, but he still then on his bad days is all star quality.


You said to be consistency is a quality is that all a player has do to be call a superstar in the NBA. I am sure that there has to be more. And T-Mac has been consistant for like 2 years is that enough time for someone to be called a Superstar.


----------



## shobe42

*de_dauntless*

when they score 50 pts multiple times
average 32 ppg!!!!
considered by many as the best in the L
make the allstar team
and be looked at as one of the young leaders of the leage um the answer is....

YES!!!!


----------



## De_dauntless

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Duncan never looks like he is playing with any intensity at all. The only reason you make that judgement between the two players is because Duncan has been on good teams and his teams have been much more successful. I'm not discounting Duncan, because he is the Spurs, but there is no visible reason to say Duncan is playing any harder than Tmac.
> 
> I think you are skewed by some biases.
> 
> I'm not gonna waste any more time arguing about anybody's heart on the court because it is just plain stupid for any of us to assume we know how much heart as guy has or how much effort he is really putting out on the court.


I am sure if you replace a Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Garnett, AI on that same Magic there would be a definite difference. I guess only then you would be able to see what a superstar is all about.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> 
> 
> You said to be consistency is a quality is that all a player has do to be call a superstar in the NBA. I am sure that there has to be more. And T-Mac has been consistant for like 2 years is that enough time for someone to be called a Superstar.



I think you should realize that coming from someone who is an avid non-Tmac fan that you are wrong.

The only areas in which Tmac has been lacking at all are in clutchness and an occasional stupid comment. Other than that we are talking about an all-world basketball player and, barring an early retirement because of back problems, a future Hall of Famer.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> 
> 
> I am sure if you replace a Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Garnett, AI on that same Magic there would be a definite difference. I guess only then you would be able to see what a superstar is all about.


Replace him with Kobe or AI they may or may not have more wins, but still wouldnt be a good team.

Replacing him with Shaq, Duncan, or KG is a completely different story. Orlando biggest and most glaring weaknesses are interior defense and rebounding, so obviously Shaq, Duncan, or KG would be a vast improvement in those areas which AI, Tmac, or Kobe cannot help in based on size alone.

Those guys are absolutely superstars, but so is Tmac.


----------



## Nevus

I think Duncan shows quite a bit more intensity than McGrady. It may be rare for Duncan to get vocal but his concentration and determination are clear.


----------



## De_dauntless

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Replace him with Kobe or AI they may or may not have more wins, but still wouldnt be a good team.
> 
> Replacing him with Shaq, Duncan, or KG is a completely different story. Orlando biggest and most glaring weaknesses are interior defense and rebounding, so obviously Shaq, Duncan, or KG would be a vast improvement in those areas.
> 
> Those guys are absolutely superstars, but so is Tmac.


Yo dawg it has been nice chatting with you and all the other guys tonite. However, T-Mac hasn't IMO hasnt reach that superstar status yet. I think he has to show more heart, more intensity and to lay it on the line always. Not to play when he feels like it. The great players always had the ability to rise over adversity and suceed. And until this happens he isnt a superstar in my books.


----------



## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> 
> 
> Yo dawg it has been nice chatting with you and all the other guys tonite. However, T-Mac hasn't IMO hasnt reach that superstar status yet. I think he has to show more heart, more intensity and to lay it on the line always. Not to play when he feels like it. The great players always had the ability to rise over adversity and suceed. And until this happens he isnt a superstar in my books.


LOL! I guess you already had the answer to this thread, so what was the point of making it?


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> 
> 
> I am sure if you replace a Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Garnett, AI on that same Magic there would be a definite difference. I guess only then you would be able to see what a superstar is all about.


Simple non sequitur. I could just as easily announce that if you replaced McGrady with Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, Garnett or AI on this same Magic team, the Magic would have 0 wins instead of 2 wins.

You'd be unable to prove that wrong, but I cannot prove it right. Same as with your statement. It doesn't really advance the argument...everyone can make a random announcement that fits what they're arguing. What's interesting is a logically-supported argument.


----------



## De_dauntless

I think this article by Sam Smith http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1683091 sums up best what I have been trying to say about T-Mac all along. So those guy who thought I was hating and didn't know what I was speaking about read this article.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> I think this article by Sam Smith http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1683091 sums up best what I have been trying to say about T-Mac all along. So those guy who thought I was hating and didn't know what I was speaking about read this article.


Doesn't mean much to me. He is a sportswriter, which again, means nothing to me. I could have very well written that article. 
Just because he has a job writing about sports doesn't mean what he says is true. Next thing you know you'll post an article by Peter Vecsey saying Shaq is gonna be traded to Dallas for Travis Best.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>De_dauntless</b>!
> I think this article by Sam Smith http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1683091 sums up best what I have been trying to say about T-Mac all along. So those guy who thought I was hating and didn't know what I was speaking about read this article.


But this article is remarkably bad and makes virtually no sense.

He says, "great players would do *something* to get a win."

Err, okay, Sam. What would a "great player" do besides play great? Which McGrady has done.

All of these arguments hint at some magic power that "great players" have and McGrady doesn't. A wizard spell that they'd cast to *make* a win happen.

Sportswriters like these are more into fantasy than into reality. They like the idea of titanic players who do everything by themselves and win championships just by force of personality. It's pure nonsense. Games and championships are won by teams. Great players play great basketball. If they have good enough teammates around them, those great performances go in the cause of a win. If they don't have good enough teammates around them, those great performances go in the cause of a loss.

Sam Smith is laughable. If McGrady, the same exact "kid" with the same lack of magical winning spells, happened to be on Dallas, putting up great stats on a 60-win team, Smith would probably be calling him the new Jordan.

Why did the Magic lose so many straight? Because they're not a good team...outside of McGrady, no one on that team played well and they were also probably unlucky. Bad team play + fluke = historic losing streak. Even with a great player. He can only do so much.


----------



## Kunlun

Superstars lead their teams to victories, so far this season T-Mac hasn't done that yet.


----------



## PauloCatarino

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> But this article is remarkably bad and makes virtually no sense.
> 
> He says, "great players would do *something* to get a win."
> 
> Err, okay, Sam. What would a "great player" do besides play great? Which McGrady has done.
> 
> All of these arguments hint at some magic power that "great players" have and McGrady doesn't. A wizard spell that they'd cast to *make* a win happen.
> 
> Sportswriters like these are more into fantasy than into reality. They like the idea of titanic players who do everything by themselves and win championships just by force of personality. It's pure nonsense. Games and championships are won by teams. Great players play great basketball. If they have good enough teammates around them, those great performances go in the cause of a win. If they don't have good enough teammates around them, those great performances go in the cause of a loss.
> 
> Sam Smith is laughable. If McGrady, the same exact "kid" with the same lack of magical winning spells, happened to be on Dallas, putting up great stats on a 60-win team, Smith would probably be calling him the new Jordan.
> 
> Why did the Magic lose so many straight? Because they're not a good team...outside of McGrady, no one on that team played well and they were also probably unlucky. Bad team play + fluke = historic losing streak. Even with a great player. He can only do so much.


I respectfully disagree, Minstrel.

For all my years watching NBA ball I have never, ever, watched something like this before...
I will easily grant that T-Mac is a hellovaplayer, but a "true great"? I don´t think so...

Iverson led a defensive-orientated bunch of role models to the Finals few years ago... and he carried that team on his back!
Barkley made the Sixers contenders (at least in the East) without much help (i mean... Shaqleford and Gminski at center? aargh! - and in the days the East HAD centers...)
Even Vince Carter led the Raptors to a jumpshot of the NBA Finals (and who was on that team?)

IMHO, great players make their teammates better!
That happened with Magic, Bird, Ol'Baldy, Isiah, Olajuwon, you name it.
It sure doesn´t seem to be happening with T-Mac, does it?

I can´t fingerpoint what the hell is wrong with T-Mac, for i believe he is a great player, but a 19-game losing streak is utterly unaceptable.
Is he playing selfish and/or uninterested?
Can´t he buy his team a win?
First the excuse was the injuries... then the coach... now what?

I sincerely don´t know.

What i know is that the Magic were thought of being title contenders, and now they are dead last in the astonishing weak East Conference...

Sorry, dude, but i think T-Mac MUST carry some of the blame for that... Isn´t he supposed to be the franchise player?


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> Iverson led a defensive-orientated bunch of role models to the Finals few years ago... and he carried that team on his back!


Key there is defensive oriented team. Defensive can win games no matter how bad you shoot. Unfortunately, Orlando is having a good shooting night eeking out 40% and there team defense is terrible. No shot blocking presence at all. And their rebounding is even worse than their defense. They gave up *20* offensive rebounds to the Spurs. They got outrebounded tonight by Washington, not a good rebounding team at all, by 15 or 20.
I don't care who is one this team, with their defense and rebounding they are lucky they've now won 3 games.



> IMHO, great players make their teammates better!
> That happened with Magic, Bird, Ol'Baldy, Isiah, Olajuwon, you name it. It sure doesn´t seem to be happening with T-Mac, does it?


Name one of those guys who had even close to the supporting cast Tmac does.



> I can´t fingerpoint what the hell is wrong with T-Mac, for i believe he is a great player, but a 19-game losing streak is utterly unaceptable. Is he playing selfish and/or uninterested?
> Can´t he buy his team a win? First the excuse was the injuries... then the coach... now what?


His is playing neither selfish or un-interested. Possibly at times too un-selfish. Tmac is the only guy on this team, the *only* one, who is creating offensive opportunities for other players. 



> What i know is that the Magic were thought of being title contenders, and now they are dead last in the astonishing weak East Conference...


Who thought Orlando was a title contender? No one I recall, even the most optimistic Orlando fans. 



> Sorry, dude, but i think T-Mac MUST carry some of the blame for that... Isn´t he supposed to be the franchise player?


Nobody will argue Tmac doesnt deserve some of the blame. But check the stats on all the other players on that team. No one on the team is performing above expectations. And most of the guys, especially the key guys (Howard, Gooden, Giricek) are all performing sub-par at best.


----------



## Burn

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> Iverson led a defensive-orientated bunch of role models to the Finals few years ago... and he carried that team on his back!
> Barkley made the Sixers contenders (at least in the East) without much help (i mean... Shaqleford and Gminski at center? aargh! - and in the days the East HAD centers...)


You make Barkley's team sound pretty good; did they ever even get to the ECF? Celts Pistons and Bulls and even the Cavs had those spots locked up IIRC

And Iverson had Ratliff during the first part of that season and Mutombo the second part, that season both were All-stars. 

p.s. no one on the Magic is in danger of winning the 6th man award either.



> Even Vince Carter led the Raptors to a jumpshot of the NBA Finals (and who was on that team?)


McGrady for one



> IMHO, great players make their teammates better!
> That happened with Magic, Bird, Ol'Baldy, Isiah, Olajuwon, you name it.
> It sure doesn´t seem to be happening with T-Mac, does it?


Their teammates were already better. That's why Worthy, McHale and Parrish went to all those AS games. That's why Dumars won a Finals MVP. That's why Clyde was on the Dream Team. BTW, how many titles did Magic win without Kareem?



> I can´t fingerpoint what the hell is wrong with T-Mac, for i believe he is a great player, but a 19-game losing streak is utterly unaceptable.
> Is he playing selfish and/or uninterested?
> Can´t he buy his team a win?
> First the excuse was the injuries... then the coach... now what?


I think the problem lies in the fact that teams have to have five men on the floor at all times, and that HE hasn't lost 19 straight games, the MAGIC have.



> What i know is that the Magic were thought of being title contenders, and now they are dead last in the astonishing weak East Conference...


And at the same time they're 9 games out of first. How could the last place team be 9 games out of first....oh yeah, because the season's only been going on about a month. 

AFAIK no one in the East was thought of as a title contender.



> Sorry, dude, but i think T-Mac MUST carry some of the blame for that... Isn´t he supposed to be the franchise player?


Yep, so he should get some of the blame. Keyword: *some*


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> Sorry, dude, but i think T-Mac MUST carry some of the blame for that... Isn´t he supposed to be the franchise player?


"Isn't he supposed to be the franchise player?" is non-sequitur. You imply with that statement that franchise players automatically win, even with penguins as their teammates, and thus, McGrady not winning casts doubt on his being a franchise player.

You first have to logically support that a "franchise player," or *any* player, can automatically win, regardless of who his teammates are.

McGrady must carry blame for whatever *he* can do that he's failed the team on...so that doesn't count "he's failed them at winning," because winning is not something he can do, himself.

He led essentially this exact same roster to the playoffs and a near upset of the two-seed. Was he a franchise player last season and then "forgot" how to be a franchise player during the off-season?

Why make up such tangential, mystical explanations like that when you can *see*, with your own eyes, McGrady play absolutely brilliant ball and the team still lose because his teammates play like absolute chumps?

It reminds me of someone watching another person slice the head off a donkey and the watcher creating elaborate theories about why the donkey died, including magic, lack of heart for living, and depression...when right in front of his eyes, it was fairly obvious the sword killed the donkey.

Why steadfastly ignore the obvious to create more elaborate, psychological reasons in a single player to explain a team failure? Can't the fact that McGrady's teammates have played insanely badly be enough?

Sports fans like to invest sports with a whole lot more magic than reality allows for. The magic of "getting better in the clutch," or the magic of "willing a victory." Believe me, as a writer in my spare time, I fully understand that evocative phrasings can make for a nicer reading experience. Doesn't mean that any of those platitudes have anything to do with reality.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> "Isn't he supposed to be the franchise player?" is non-sequitur. You imply with that statement that franchise players automatically win, even with penguins as their teammates, and thus, McGrady not winning casts doubt on his being a franchise player.
> 
> You first have to logically support that a "franchise player," or *any* player, can automatically win, regardless of who his teammates are.
> 
> McGrady must carry blame for whatever *he* can do that he's failed the team on...so that doesn't count "he's failed them at winning," because winning is not something he can do, himself.
> 
> He led essentially this exact same roster to the playoffs and a near upset of the two-seed. Was he a franchise player last season and then "forgot" how to be a franchise player during the off-season?
> 
> Why make up such tangential, mystical explanations like that when you can *see*, with your own eyes, McGrady play absolutely brilliant ball and the team still lose because his teammates play like absolute chumps?
> 
> It reminds me of someone watching another person slice the head off a donkey and the watcher creating elaborate theories about why the donkey died, including magic, lack of heart for living, and depression...when right in front of his eyes, it was fairly obvious the sword killed the donkey.
> 
> Why steadfastly ignore the obvious to create more elaborate, psychological reasons in a single player to explain a team failure? Can't the fact that McGrady's teammates have played insanely badly be enough?
> 
> Sports fans like to invest sports with a whole lot more magic than reality allows for. The magic of "getting better in the clutch," or the magic of "willing a victory." Believe me, as a writer in my spare time, I fully understand that evocative phrasings can make for a nicer reading experience. Doesn't mean that any of those platitudes have anything to do with reality.


Just a comment here ... whoever didn't give you a 5-star rating should be banned. :topic:


----------



## Tom

he is the best player ever


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Tom</b>!
> he is the best player ever


Call me crazy, but I suspect some sarcasm here.


----------



## BEEZ

I'm going to go with JNice a little on this one. I was one of the guys placing the blame solely on TMac. The fact of the matter is when you win, most of the accolades goes to the superstar and when you lose the same thing happens. Howard and Gooden have severly under performed, but you know I wont blame this on either of those guys either because they are doing something they shouldnt be doing and thats being on the floor at the same time. They are the same type of player and they are going about this very professionaly. At the same time that doesnt mean its going to work and obviously it hasnt. I place the Blame on the Magic GM's for bringing in Howard instead of Nesterovic.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> I'm going to go with JNice a little on this one. I was one of the guys placing the blame solely on TMac. The fact of the matter is when you win, most of the accolades goes to the superstar and when you lose the same thing happens. Howard and Gooden have severly under performed, but you know I wont blame this on either of those guys either because they are doing something they shouldnt be doing and thats being on the floor at the same time. They are the same type of player and they are going about this very professionaly. At the same time that doesnt mean its going to work and obviously it hasnt. I place the Blame on the Magic GM's for bringing in Howard instead of Nesterovic.


I honestly thought that Howard would be fine as a center in the East, but I was dead wrong. I've never seen him play a whole lot and didn't realize how un-athletic he really was. Orlando took a risk in bringing Howard in with Gooden playing the same position and unforunately it has blown up in their face, like most of the other moves they've made the last 3 or 4 years.


----------



## PauloCatarino

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> "Isn't he supposed to be the franchise player?" is non-sequitur. You imply with that statement that franchise players automatically win, even with penguins as their teammates, and thus, McGrady not winning casts doubt on his being a franchise player.
> 
> You first have to logically support that a "franchise player," or *any* player, can automatically win, regardless of who his teammates are.
> 
> McGrady must carry blame for whatever *he* can do that he's failed the team on...so that doesn't count "he's failed them at winning," because winning is not something he can do, himself.
> 
> He led essentially this exact same roster to the playoffs and a near upset of the two-seed. Was he a franchise player last season and then "forgot" how to be a franchise player during the off-season?
> 
> Why make up such tangential, mystical explanations like that when you can *see*, with your own eyes, McGrady play absolutely brilliant ball and the team still lose because his teammates play like absolute chumps?
> 
> It reminds me of someone watching another person slice the head off a donkey and the watcher creating elaborate theories about why the donkey died, including magic, lack of heart for living, and depression...when right in front of his eyes, it was fairly obvious the sword killed the donkey.
> 
> Why steadfastly ignore the obvious to create more elaborate, psychological reasons in a single player to explain a team failure? Can't the fact that McGrady's teammates have played insanely badly be enough?


Minstrel, you know i dig your posting (eventhough you ALWAYS give me a bad time anytime i post - which is not often), but i don´t think your right on this one...

Look, we´re not talking about a mere bump on the road for a team... the Magic had a 19-game losing streak! And that´s an astonishing number, either way you want to put it.

I won´t digress how T-Mac was seen laughing on the bench when one of those losses ocurred (eventhough i believe a true leader would be fuming! (sp?)...)

"He led essentially this exact same roster to the playoffs and a near upset of the two-seed. Was he a franchise player last season and then "forgot" how to be a franchise player during the off-season?"
That´s exactly my point! How come the Magic became terrible all off the sudden?
What happened? Did they (the WHOLE team) forgot how to play ball? 

In my book, a superstar is the one who makes their teammates better, and the guy who is the "glue" to his team... T-Mac hasn´t showed me none of that.

He once claimed to be unstoppable and, all of the sudden, Baron Davis almost singlehandedly crushed a playoff series in his favour with a couple triple-double games...
And what happened last season´s playoffs?

I don´t pretend to defend a superstar will always will his way to victory, but i can distinctly remember Jordan kicking a chair and yelling to his teammates, Bird always wanting the ball in his hands for the final shot, Olajuwon´s game providing open looks to average guys like Maxwell and Smith...
For me, a superstar is a guy who will find a way to beat you... and T.Mac is WAY short on that department.

Bottom line: are T-Mac´s teammates that lousy as to make a 19-game losing streak commun?

I don´t think so...


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## PauloCatarino

JNice and Burn, i get your point...

Like you can see above, i´m not a T-Mac hater... i just think he is having a bad time with his game and the way to get everyone involved...

All love, though...


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## PauloCatarino

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Just a comment here ... whoever didn't give you a 5-star rating should be banned. :topic:


Bownnoser!  

P.S.-Minstrel is allright (whenever he can keep himself away for Laker matter...)


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## Tom

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Call me crazy, but I suspect some sarcasm here.


You so crazy :laugh:


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Bownnoser!
> 
> P.S.-Minstrel is allright (whenever he can keep himself away for Laker matter...)


It would only be brown-nosing if I cared what his response was or if I had something to gain. Just wanted to point out a good poster.

On your other comment .. no doubt Tmac is not shooting well this season, although still finding a way to get almost 25 a game ... but if you've watched the games, he is doing every thing else well. His defense has been very good. He has been creating opportunities for teammates. If his teammates as a whole could shoot 45% he'd probably be averaging close to 10 assists a game. He is leading the team in assists. And he has nearly out-scored opponents in quarters to bring back Orlando from a large defecit.

I've watched probably 15 or 16 of the 22 games so far ... and I know what i've seen.

Biggest problem is the team lost some easier games and home games early in the season ... then once the snowball got going, they had to go out West and play even tougher teams.

Like i've said before, all the same people jumping on him while he is down wont be saying anything once he gets a decent team around him or at least some of the other guys on the team step up and start playing to their abilities.


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## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> (whenever he can keep himself away for Laker matter...)


True. I'm still scratching my head over that "Rodman is a better passer than Malone" comment. Other than that he's cool.


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## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> It would only be brown-nosing if I cared what his response was or if I had something to gain. Just wanted to point out a good poster.
> 
> On your other comment .. no doubt Tmac is not shooting well this season, although still finding a way to get almost 25 a game ... but if you've watched the games, he is doing every thing else well. His defense has been very good. He has been creating opportunities for teammates. If his teammates as a whole could shoot 45% he'd probably be averaging close to 10 assists a game. He is leading the team in assists. And he has nearly out-scored opponents in quarters to bring back Orlando from a large defecit.
> 
> I've watched probably 15 or 16 of the 22 games so far ... and I know what i've seen.
> 
> Biggest problem is the team lost some easier games and home games early in the season ... then once the snowball got going, they had to go out West and play even tougher teams.
> 
> Like i've said before, all the same people jumping on him while he is down wont be saying anything once he gets a decent team around him or at least some of the other guys on the team step up and start playing to their abilities.


i think we woulda won some of those games where we lost by under 10 points had we had giricek and shammond williams healthy... oh well..im not complaining..im just hapy they are winning some games now..

btw.. tmac is being gaurded like crazy this season... i find it hard to believe he gets his shot up and actually gets soem to fall in.. anyways..i think tmac should drive and get fouled more instead of settle for some jumpshots...especially when he's missing the jumpshots..but he is playing great all around basketball so im not complainig... GOO MAGIC!!


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## Critic

This losing to be perfectly honest doesnt really bother me that much. They should have known not to sign Juwan Howard in the first place though. What has he ever won in his life? Absolutely nothing!...So what...he lead a team last year...wow....they also finished dead last in their division. The guy has an excellent NBA sized body and and obvious high level of talent...but he will never be a winner in this league and I would go as far as saying that he is an absolute cancer for the Magic this year.

Juwan is not the only problem however. They have a backup level talent as their starting point guard! Shammond has been a starter in this league before....but he too is a bad first option... They realistically should have never gotten rid of Darrell Armstrong. I know he is on the last legs of his career...but at least he was a serviceable floor leader. The guys they have now will never ammount to anything but career role players...if that!

Last....I started off saying that this losing isnt bothering me. Well...as long as TMac stays around...I'm ok with it. Reason...We are currently sitting in a prime position to get the number one pick in the draft. There are alot of very good post players going to be available and there will also be some good point guards to be had as well. Lets say we get a top 3 pick...We get a Big man with that...and we trade someone to get another first rounder to get a point guard.

Next Year...

PG ? maybe Gaines (But I doubt it!)...or a new draft pick
SG TMac
SF Giricek
PF Gooden
C Someone like Dwight Howard or Pavel Podkolzine

Bench...

Howard
Lue

The rest...
Bogans
Pachulia
Gaines
Hunter
Garrity


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Minstrel, you know i dig your posting (eventhough you ALWAYS give me a bad time anytime i post - which is not often)


How do you mean? I don't single you out, or anything. I debate with you as I debate with anyone else.

But thanks, about the digging.  I always respect you, since you keep things civil and reasonable.



> Look, we´re not talking about a mere bump on the road for a team... the Magic had a 19-game losing streak! And that´s an astonishing number, either way you want to put it.


It is. My opinion is that it was a fluke. There were a number of close games that simply didn't go their way. No question, the Magic played horribly...that's not at question. But I think it was a fluke that they didn't get a win here or there, making it a weak, but not historic, 5-14 or something.



> That´s exactly my point! How come the Magic became terrible all off the sudden?
> What happened? Did they (the WHOLE team) forgot how to play ball?


No, over a small sample of their careers, they slumped. It's startling that several players slumped together, but it's not like we're talking Duncan and KG slumping...these are average or slightly above average players at their best. Not far to fall to be quite poor. 



> In my book, a superstar is the one who makes their teammates better, and the guy who is the "glue" to his team... T-Mac hasn´t showed me none of that.


I think he's shown that in dragging a pretty weak team to the playoffs the last two years, with no helper star. That counts for more, to me, than 20 games in one particular season.



> I don´t pretend to defend a superstar will always will his way to victory, but i can distinctly remember Jordan kicking a chair and yelling to his teammates, Bird always wanting the ball in his hands for the final shot, Olajuwon´s game providing open looks to average guys like Maxwell and Smith...
> For me, a superstar is a guy who will find a way to beat you... and T.Mac is WAY short on that department.


Olajuwon providing open looks? How is that different from McGrady providing open looks to his teammates? The difference is that McGrady's teammates didn't *hit* the shots. How are you going to blame McGrady for his teammates not scoring when he sets them for easy scores?

McGrady wants the ball in his hands at the end and has done some great things. But when triple-teams come, hey, someone else has to hit a shot. That's why this is team basketball and not one-on-one pick-up games.



> Bottom line: are T-Mac´s teammates that lousy as to make a 19-game losing streak commun?
> 
> I don´t think so...


Me either. I think they played lousy enough to lose a large percentage of 19 games. Losing *all* of them was a fluke. Plus, they played a tough schedule, with a huge amount of games against the West. I think they'll rebound against the East.

Two game winning streak. Can a nineteen-game winning streak be far away?

(Yes.)


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> True. I'm still scratching my head over that "Rodman is a better passer than Malone" comment. Other than that he's cool.


Rodman always was underrated as a passer.  

He was a tremendously important part of the triangle due to his passing ability.

But this is so off-topic. I forbid you to argue with me! :laugh:


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## bulls

> T-Mac may be a superstar, but this guy will never win a championship



fine we'll take him,call pax up and take your pick of players...
you guys should count yourself luckly atleast you have a star all we have are the 3 C's :upset:


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## IV

Tmac is definately a superstar. Any player to make the all NBA first team is that. He's one of the greatest talents the league has ever seen, now it's time for him find his place as a great player by making Orlando(or wherever he ends up) a great team.


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