# Vince Carter or Paul Pierce?



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Yeah, I know this has been done before, but I'm tired of looking for the previous twenty-nine threads about this topic. Who is the better player and state your reasons. Who has been the better player in the past? 

Also, I'm not doing a poll. I'd like to see who you would have in a post with reasons. 

I'm torned between these two players. Both are all-stars, but they both have many problems. I'm looking for someone else's insight in this free from all the bias the Celtics and Raptors forums would produce.

I explained Pierce's problems in this thread (which had no responses after mine.)



> > Originally posted by *TheTruth34*!
> >
> > And Paul had a bad year? Damn, alot of players wish they had a bad year averaging 23.3 ppg. From a team standpoint, yeah they sucked, but individually, come on he had a nice season.
> 
> ...


Vince is no angel, either. Vince likely is the most overrated player in the NBA. Some fans view him as a "God"-like figure. He has injury problems, but last year he didn't miss a lot of games. His mid-range jumper has slowly declined.


----------



## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

Pierce is much better now but Pierce hasnt had a season to touch VC's 2001.... but Pierce is better right now and he just behind, if not on par with T-Mac


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> 
> Pierce is much better now but Pierce hasnt had a season to touch VC's 2001.... but Pierce is better right now and he just behind, if not on par with T-Mac


I wouldn't say that. Pierce had an awful season last year and unless he can correct most of the mistakes he commited last year that I posted in my original post, he won't have a productive season this year. I would say he is on par with such players like Corey Maggette and Michael Redd.


----------



## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

yeah he is on a par with Kobe.


----------



## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

Nah id rather have Pierce than Magette or Redd, Yea Pierce across the board had a disappointing year, but I didnt like how he had a revolving door of teamates, once he finally got used to them, the Celtics started playing alot better. IT takes a while to get used to Ricky Davis. Plus O'Brien leaving, it was a hectic year in general but they still managed to make a stretch run, Pierce is the leader of that team and I give him credit.


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> 
> Pierce is the leader of that team and I give him credit.


Do you mean "leader" as in best player or "leader" as in motivating your team towards victory?

Pierce hardly was a leader.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

As much as I am down on Paul Pierce, I would still rather have him than Vince Carter. Paul, even with all the in-season changes, still had the team in the playoffs over the Raptors. Not to mention, that outside of last year, he always came up big in the playoffs.


----------



## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

Well It looks like you're a C's fan and have put alot of thought into it but i gotta stick up for my boy from Inglewood.... so who would you deal Pierce for? VC? do you see any good trades for the C's out there?


----------



## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Celts11</b>!
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say that. Pierce had an awful season last year and unless he can correct most of the mistakes he commited last year that I posted in my original post, he won't have a productive season this year. I would say he is on par with such players like Corey Maggette and Michael Redd.



This is a horrible comparison. Please. He's way ahead of those two and that is no knock on either of their games. He has a lot to adjust from last year, but I would take him over VC anyday and itz not even based on skill b/c they both do what their best at very well and match up very well, but VC cannot stay healthy for an entire year while Pierce can. He's playing in crunch tyme even if he didn't ALWAYS produce last year liek you guys expect him to 82 games a year b/c thatz not humanly posible, unliek VC who is sitting in street clothes.


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> 
> Well It looks like you're a C's fan and have put alot of thought into it but i gotta stick up for my boy from Inglewood.... so who would you deal Pierce for? VC? do you see any good trades for the C's out there?


Well, there hasn't been any major rumors of Paul being traded besides the Bulls rumor, but HKF and Big John have came up with some good ones. 

Big John: Pierce for Redd and Kukoc 
HKF: Pierce for Maggette and Wilcox


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

They're pretty close in terms of on-court impact but there's no way in hell I'd trade Vince for Pierce straight up. 

Paul's main advantage is his ability to get to the free-throw line. Carter, on the other hand, has shown that he can play point forward effectively and maintain solid defensive play. 

Both of these guys could do with a better point guard but I think they'll both rebound from lackluster seasons with their teams playing up-tempo basketball (i hope).


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Celts11</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, there hasn't been any major rumors of Paul being traded besides the Bulls rumor, but HKF and Big John have came up with some good ones.
> ...


I wouldn't do the first deal, but the 2nd deal I would do in a heartbeat. Pierce for Redd or Maggette straight up is not a fair deal to me.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> They're pretty close in terms of on-court impact but there's no way in hell I'd trade Vince for Pierce straight up.
> 
> Paul's main advantage is his ability to get to the free-throw line. Carter, on the other hand, has shown that he can play point forward effectively and maintain solid defensive play.
> ...


you'd better hope vince even stays in canada.


----------



## quick (Feb 13, 2004)

VC is better in my opinion



> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> As much as I am down on Paul Pierce, I would still rather have him than Vince Carter. Paul, even with all the in-season changes, still had the team in the playoffs over the Raptors. Not to mention, that outside of last year, he always came up big in the playoffs.


 The raptors looked like they could have made it to the playoffs last season but something happened to ruin all of that.


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Quite honestly, I wouldn't want either on my team unless they accepted being the second option. Over the past couple of seasons both have shown that they are incapable of carrying a team anywhere by themselves, and neither will ever be the best player on a championship team. If I absolutely had to have one I'd take Pierce.


----------



## Azamad Bagatov (Jul 15, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>MiamiHeat03</b>!
> yeah he is on a par with Kobe.


But Kobe is a primadonna. Kobe would not be mentally stable enough to lead the bunch of scrubs, that the celtics are, to the playoffs. He would start whining and critisizing in the middle of the season.


----------



## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> Paul's main advantage is his ability to get to the free-throw line. Carter, on the other hand, has shown that he can play point forward effectively and maintain solid defensive play.


I consider PP the better defender, ot by a wide margin, but it's an easy decision. That's one of the reasons I'd take him over VC.


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Azamad Bagatov</b>!
> 
> But Kobe is a primadonna. Kobe would not be mentally stable enough to lead the bunch of scrubs, that the celtics are, to the playoffs. *He would start whining and critisizing in the middle of the season.*


And you believe Pierce didn't do any of this?


----------



## rocketsthathavespurs (Jul 17, 2004)

vince and paul are matched but T-mac is much better then paul


----------



## Azamad Bagatov (Jul 15, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Celts11</b>!
> 
> 
> And you believe Pierce didn't do any of this?



He did it presumeably, but Kobe is on another level on that matter.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Considering most of the replies were by celts fans of course you would take PP, but I have said it and will always say it Vince has and will always be a better player than PP. Even in their college days, Vince was a better player. The only glaring defense between the 2 is effort, PP gives more effort when he is playing. And oh by the way Vince is as good as any guard in the game ala Kobe or T-mac and if the only arguement people can bring up is the fact that he has lost some of his explosiveness then you better bring up stronger points


----------



## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> you'd better hope vince even stays in canada.



From someone with such bountiful knowledge of Canada.


----------



## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

*Pierce vs. VC*

If the question is right now then the edge goes to Pierce. But VC in his best year was better than Paul has ever been.

Vince is becoming more prone to injury... like Charles Barkley said a few years ago, "Dunking is very hard on your body." So much of Vince Carter's game centered on his incredible athletic prowess. He is now learning how to play well with less hops and quickness but he is much easier to stop than he used to be. With all due respect to VC he has yet to prove that he will be any where near the player that he was in his prime... in his prime the only one who stopped Vince was Vince. Still he is the greatest dunker that I have ever seen.

Pierce is a very good player, but he has never been as explosive as VC was or as unstoppable. Paul has his streaks where he is unstoppable and excellent on both ends of the floor. Before this past season he was a fourth quarter monster. He is an all around player and he is better suited to being on a team with more talent that he is comfortable with (the O'Brien C's had very little talent but the core guys played together well and knew what to expect from each other).

The Celtics now have more raw talent than at any other time in Pierce's career. However, he is not comfortable with these guys yet. How he becomes a leader within this group will determine his greatness... or lack of greatness.


----------



## Kezersoze (Mar 3, 2004)

I don't think you should knock Pierce for not being as athletic as a prime Vince cause really who is. Pierce is definitely not a true leader. It was primarily Antoine Walker who motivated the Celtics in the 4th quarter of the Eastern Conference finals against the Nets. Pierce is more of the silent partner than anything.


----------



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

> It was primarily Antoine Walker who motivated the Celtics in the 4th quarter of the Eastern Conference finals against the Nets


from what i remember, all walker did was talk during the timeout. pierce was the one doing the scoring.

i like Paul over Vince. Hes a better scorer, and a way better defender. and hes not an injury waiting to happen


----------



## wild_style (Feb 26, 2004)

how is paul pierce not a leader??
there are about 5 players in the league who can lead a team to a championship, and for paul pierce to take his team into the play offs year after year (especially this year) with what hes had to work with is incredible, vince is a great player but id take paul anyday


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Vince is the only guard or small forward to average close to a block per game and you say his not that good a defender, and lest not forget the steal per game also.


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> Vince is the only guard or small forward to average close to a block per game and you say his not that good a defender, and lest not forget the steal per game also.


Shawn Marion? Andrei Kirilenko? Or how about not just look at last season. When McGrady moves out to Houston where he'll have Yao and won't have to focus on offense so much anymore, expect him to go back to his old defensive ways where he was far superior to Vince. He doesn't average 1.2 bpg for his career by pure luck.

That point is moot anyway, blocks and steals don't mean very much at all in evaluating ones defense. Getting a lot of blocks and steals doesn't make you a good defender, and not getting a lot of blocks or steals doesn't mean you're a poor defender.


----------



## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>wild_style</b>!
> how is paul pierce not a leader??
> there are about 5 players in the league who can lead a team to a championship, and for paul pierce to take his team into the play offs year after year (especially this year) with what hes had to work with is incredible, vince is a great player but id take paul anyday



Last year was tough and I am a Celtics fan, but other fans cannot accept anything less from him than perfectness so they hafta trash him somehow someway.


----------



## quick (Feb 13, 2004)

Pierce may have went further in the playoffs which I'm talking about is the ecf but I thought carter was more impressive.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> From someone with such bountiful knowledge of Canada.


did my saying "canada's a country?" anger you? :whoknows:


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Richie Rich</b>!
> 
> Last year was tough and I am a Celtics fan, but other fans cannot accept anything less from him than perfectness so they hafta trash him somehow someway.


Pierce didn't have to be perfect and he was far from it, but he could've wisen up and started passing the ball instead of trying to drive through double-teams which lead to his astounding number of turnovers commited during the season. If he played smart and not lazy, there would be no reason to trash him.


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>wild_style</b>!
> 
> how is paul pierce not a leader??
> there are about 5 players in the league who can lead a team to a championship, and for paul pierce to take his team into the play offs year after year (especially this year) with what hes had to work with is incredible, vince is a great player but id take paul anyday


Paul Pierce cannot lead his team to a championship by himself. No player in the NBA can accomplish such a difficult task. Also, Paul Pierce benifited from having Eric Williams, Antoine Walker, and Erik Strickland as leaders during his career in the NBA. This season, he was lost without a true leader until Chucky Atkins showed up. Antoine Walker was the player that lead this team to the playoffs. Any team with Walker and Pierce can make the playoffs in the East.

I guess the camera doesn't show Walker drawing double teams so Pierce can go one-on-one. Without a second star, Pierce will always be mediocre.



> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> 
> Quite honestly, I wouldn't want either on my team unless they accepted being the second option. Over the past couple of seasons both have shown that they are incapable of carrying a team anywhere by themselves, and neither will ever be the best player on a championship team. If I absolutely had to have one I'd take Pierce.


Agreed.


----------



## HipHopCrossova.com (Jun 19, 2004)

Well, both of the 2 are ranked in the top 10 in the league for points per game. So either 1 would be great for any team. 

Vince is best to start over or help out a franchise. Vince brings in FANS!! Vince fills in seats, same goes with Iverson. I don't feel the same way about Pierce, and not sure if he could bring in the money like VC would do for a franchise.

Now when it comes to playoffs, think back a few yrs ago when it was Toronto vs the 76ers. It was one of the best 1-on-1 match-up games in playoffs history. I mean Vince and Iverson went back-and-forth with 50pts game each. And it came down to a game 7. Now even tho Toronto lost, Vince still showed me more than anything Pierce has ever done in his playoff career.

Pierce 2 yrs ago in the playoffs vs the nets in the conference finals was also a good match-up. But that series wasn't all about Pierce, Walker also helped(if not) put up better/same type numbers with Pierce.

I choose Vince!

*I don't see how any1 can say Vince's injury has affected him lately when he's still puttin up top 10 stats in almost every category in the league. Vince ranks 7th in the NBA in pts per game, Pierce ranks 5th.


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>HipHopCrossova.com</b>!
> *I don't see how any1 can say Vince's injury has affected him lately when he's still puttin up top 10 stats in almost every category in the league. Vince ranks 7th in the NBA in pts per game, Pierce ranks 5th.


Exactly what stat other than points is Vince Carter even close to sniffing the top 10 in(turnovers don't count)?


----------



## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>HipHopCrossova.com</b>!
> *I don't see how any1 can say Vince's injury has affected him lately when he's still puttin up top 10 stats in almost every category in the league. Vince ranks 7th in the NBA in pts per game, Pierce ranks 5th.


and what more people fail to realize, he only missed 9 games last season... but it was with the second worst ankle sprain in nba history (*cough*Troy Hudson*cough*)


----------



## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly what stat other than points is Vince Carter even close to sniffing the top 10 in(turnovers don't count)?


FYI, pierce is top 3 in turnovers. shouldn't have thrown that in at the end. btw, carter is top 10 in FGM


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>-James-</b>!
> 
> 
> FYI, pierce is top 3 in turnovers. shouldn't have thrown that in at the end. btw, carter is top 10 in FGM


I wasn't trying to make an argument for Pierce, I was just saying Vince doesn't do anything extremely well except score. Like I stated before, I don't particularly care for either of these guys or their games.


----------



## Blazer Freak (Jul 11, 2004)

PP is a 2nd option player. He can't handle the pressure. Give him a real star and he will do awesome. If Vince Was 100% and went back to his normal form of dunking I'd take him. Actually as of right now I would take VC.


----------



## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

in the past, there would be no question I would take Vince over Pierce. As of right now, I might hesitate a little bit, but still would pick Vince.

The past season was his first real season back from the injuries and he was putting up decent numbers. I fully expect that he will do much better this season and also shed his injury prone label.

And to the people who say he's overated, he can only be overated if everyone hypes him up... I see exactly the opposite these days. He's being bashed by fans and the media, if anything, I think he's being underated right now.


----------



## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Celts11</b>!
> 
> 
> Pierce didn't have to be perfect and he was far from it, but he could've wisen up and started passing the ball instead of trying to drive through double-teams which lead to his astounding number of turnovers commited during the season. If he played smart and not lazy, there would be no reason to trash him.



Many of you on the board would still trash him if he was 15-20 from the floor with 12 rebounds 8 assists and 5 steals. That'z the sad part.


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Richie Rich</b>!
> 
> Many of you on the board would still trash him if he was 15-20 from the floor with 12 rebounds 8 assists and 5 steals. That'z the sad part.


If he went 15-20 with 12/8/5, why would I "trash" him? Also, his turnovers matter and whether or not he played with intensity. When Pierce is playing good, he is playing great.



> Originally posted by <b>Blazer Freak</b>!
> PP is a 2nd option player. He can't handle the pressure. Give him a real star and he will do awesome. If Vince Was 100% and went back to his normal form of dunking I'd take him. Actually as of right now I would take VC.


Pierce can handle the "pressure" very well. All he needs is a legit second option to draw double-teams to get Paul open. Antoine Walker provided that. Ricky Davis cannot because they play the same position.


----------



## banner17 (Jun 28, 2003)

That and someone to legitimately distribute the ball to him. Ricky Davis is not the issue - the two can co-exist and score plenty enough each provided that the team has good point guard play, which they haven't had since the moron move of the century, ie. the Kenny Anderson trade.

Kenny drove me nuts the majority of the time he was in Boston, but when we made it to the ECF, he actually had a pretty decent year for himself.

The following year Antoine distributed the ball to Pierce very well. They had tremendous success with Pierce posting up and Antoine passing into him from the wing.

Last year, even Chucky was marginal at best at distribution and IMO not as good as KA in his last year in Boston or even Antoine that matter, in terms of running the offense.


It's a toss up regarding Carter or Pierce. If Carter stays off the IR and shows some heart, he could be the better baller. That was what I admired about Paul up until last year. He always played with a lot of heart and tremendous passion. I can see why last year was so frustrating for him, but he did handle the situation like a baby and I've lost a bit of respect.

I would be interested to see how Vince would react to a change in environment. He has said he wants out of Toronto. If he stays, I don't imagine he'll play with that much passion this year.

One thing is clear - both of them desperately need another star player alongside them that has leadership ability.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Also note that Vince's scoring average was that low because his coach was too defensive minded, the raptos set almost every record in the NBA that had to do with lowest points. I really do think Vince is going to have a great year this season, his new coach already said they will be more offensive minded


----------



## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

You are like most NBA fans. What you remember is the forth quarter and what you forget is that the game is 4 quarters long.
Walker lead the team in the first 3 quarters and was literally the only player to show up from the Celtics.
At the beginning of the forth quarter Walker gave Pierce the speech, played killer defense and didn't do much of the scoring because Pierce finally decided to play the game of basketball instead of whining to the refs the entire game.
If it wasn't for Walkers defense in that quarter plus his speech the Celtics would have lost that game by 40 points. 





> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> 
> 
> from what i remember, all walker did was talk during the timeout. pierce was the one doing the scoring.
> ...


----------



## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Celts11</b>!
> Yeah, I know this has been done before, but I'm tired of looking for the previous twenty-nine threads about this topic. Who is the better player and state your reasons. Who has been the better player in the past?
> 
> Also, I'm not doing a poll. I'd like to see who you would have in a post with reasons.
> ...


<i>Vince is no angel, either. Vince likely is the most overrated player in the NBA. Some fans view him as a "God"-like figure. He has injury problems, but last year he didn't miss a lot of games. His mid-range jumper has slowly declined. </i>[/QUOTE]

..................................................

I watch Vince as much as I can - and I just don't know why people think he has lost his mid-range game. As for preferring Pierce or Vince - I go with Vince for a couple of reasons:

1) He is not only a great shooter(holds & shares playoff records for 3 point shooting), but he is also a great scorer because he can take it to the rack with the best of them.

2) His assist to turnover ratio must be better than Pierce's ratio, as Vince cannot have near the amount of turnovers that Paul has.

3) I don't care what anyone says - I see Vince as better because he has not had the Antoine Walker factor that Paul enjoyed. 

4) Vince is also a very good defender, unlike what so many try saying that he is not. I have seen him cover the weak side MUCH more than I have seen Pierce cover it - until Walker left, & then Paul tried harder. How many times has his opponent scored more than Vince? Not many times.


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

I dont want to explain too much here.


I just treated this as a kid thread that allows Kid to post here.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

I really have to agree with point number 4, as much as ppl try to make out Vince's defense as sub par, I have not heard of too many players having career games when they r matched up against him


----------



## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

*Re: Re: Vince Carter or Paul Pierce?*



> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 4) Vince is also a very good defender, unlike what so many try saying that he is not. I have seen him cover the weak side MUCH more than I have seen Pierce cover it - until Walker left, & then Paul tried harder. How many times has his opponent scored more than Vince? Not many times.


I somewhat agree with this as well. When he wants to, he plays great defence. In the past season.. I remember him shutting down players like Rasheed Wallace and Dirk in the 4th quarters... he gets a lot of very good timely blocks as well


----------

