# Draft Winners/Losers



## bball2223

Who were the winners and losers of the 2011 draft?


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## bball2223

Winners:

Wizards
Jazz
Pistons

Losers:

Knicks (I'm indifferent on Shumpert, but Harrelson really?)
76'ers (not high on Vucevic or Allen)


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## Floods

Heat, for not getting in on that George Hill thing. PERFECT player for them.


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## Wade County

^ We didnt exactly have a mid 1st round pick to give up for him though. He'd be perfect, but we had no assets.


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## HKF

Sixers are interesting. They didn't need any more wings. They are set on the wings.


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## Floods

Wade County said:


> ^ We didnt exactly have a mid 1st round pick to give up for him though. He'd be perfect, but we had no assets.


True. Still, I hope Riley at least explored every possible option.

I mean I highly doubt the Spurs tearfully and slowly parted with Hill just to acquire the almighty Kawhi Leonard.


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## BlakeJesus

Don't be so sensational. Leonard is a good prospect, the Heat had nothing to give for Hill.


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## Juggernaut

Pistons were the big winners imo.


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## Wade County

Cavs, Pistons, Wizards, Bobcats.


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## Nimreitz

Next person to say the Bobcats were winners goes on my block list. ****ing Biyombo and Kemba (when they already have Augustin), smh. Biyombo is the worst top 10 pick in the last 5 years. At least.

And losing S-Jax leaves a massive hole in that team. Looks more like a team tanking for Harrison Barnes than a winner.


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## MemphisX

Nimreitz said:


> Next person to say the Bobcats were winners goes on my block list. ****ing Biyombo and Kemba (when they already have Augustin), smh. *Biyombo is the worst top 10 pick in the last 5 years. * At least.



Might want to edit this one fast....


I'll happily take Josh Selby at 49, thank you NBA GMs for taking Josh Harrelson over him. Perfect future 6th man and should have his ego knocked down just enough to accept that role.


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## Turkish Delight

Losers: 
KINGS ( YOU COULD HAVE GOT KNIGHT IF YOU DIDN'T TRADE DOWN - WHO CARES ABOUT THIS OVERRATED MORMON PROSPECT)
RAPTORS (BARGNANI AND SOME RANDOM LITHUANIAN - WHO HAS A SHOTGUN IM GOING TO KILL MYSELF)


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## Nimreitz

The Bobcats couldn't even make Okafor a top defensive center. The hell they gonna do it with Biyombo.


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## Wade County

I like Kemba, think he'll be OK. They probably could've gone Knight at 7 and picked someone else at #9 - but its not a bad get.

Biyombo is high risk/high reward. Worth a shot, but hopefully passing on Knight doesnt hurt them.


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## Nimreitz

I like Kemba as well, I just don't think he's a good fit with Augustin, and I completely agree they should have gone Knight at #7.


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## Wade County

^ Depends on their long term view of Augustin though. He's been solid, without being remarkable. Cats need offense, and Kemba will bring that.


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## bball2223

Also was not a fan of the Kings or Raptors draft. 

I was indifferent to the Bobcats draft. I love Kemba's game, and I like Biyombo's potential as a defensive anchor, but Charlotte's draft track record has not been anything to sneeze at.


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## E.H. Munro

Walker will be better than Augustin, and Augustin's now available for trade. Biyombo was the second worst pick of the last few years. 

Winners: Pistons, Jazz, Wizards, Clippers (that was a pretty good second round for this draft cesspool), Mavericks, Pacers (the latter two for successfully getting the hell out of this draft)

Losers: Cadavaliers (an undersized PF to backup your present undersized PFs?), Boobcats, Slumberwolves (give Kahn a chance and he'll turn lead into raw sewage), Celtics (drafting the new Mikki Moore in the first round was a terrible idea, you should have let the Nets have the pick for a future first)


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## Jonathan Watters

I have no idea why on earth people are so down on Biyombo. The guy is an elite NBA defender, and probably very early in his career. His offense is terrible, but why is it that a player with no defense gets a pass but a player with no offense is a bust? 

Marcus Morris couldn't play defense if his life depended on it, I don't see people calling him a bust?

And why do you keep calling Tristan Thompson undersized when two months ago I pointed out his actual measurements aren't undersized and you had no response? 

The dude is a player and has always been a player, I think you just weren't used to seeing his name in the lottery on the mock draft boards.

Ripping JuJuan Johnson at #27 is hilarious. Mikki Moore, really? Did you watch Mikki Moore in college? Ever bothered to look and see what type of college player Mikki Moore was? 

You realize that drafting Mikki Moore at #27 in one of the worst drafts in NBA history would be an outstanding turn of events for the Celtics, right? 

You probably ought to watch some of these guys play. I've been calling these picks for months...


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## E.H. Munro

I'm not sure that he becomes a Ben Wallace type. What if he's no better than Joel Anthony? Would he be a bust in the purest sense? (i.e. out of the league). No. But the Boobcats would still have passed on better players to land him.


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## HKF

To me the Bobcats are fully tanking for the next two years (2012 & 2013 drafts), hoping to get real franchise changing talent. Have you checked their roster before this? I mean that team (other than Minnesota, Washington and Cleveland) might be the worst team top to bottom in the league talent wise. I'll give Cho a chance though to make things happen.


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## Jonathan Watters

E.H. Munro said:


> I'm not sure that he becomes a Ben Wallace type. What if he's no better than Joel Anthony? Would he be a bust in the purest sense? (i.e. out of the league). No. But the Boobcats would still have passed on better players to land him.


What if he's no better than Joel Anthony? What does that have to do anything? What if Kyrie Irving isn't better than Jamal Tinsley? Does that make him a bust? Do you really think that the guy who finished 2nd in the ACB league in blocks per minute in his 2nd season of competitive basketball is going to be Joel Anthony? Take 2 minutes to watch Biyombo and you realize he's 10x the athlete that Joel Anthony is...

And that's the thing about this draft. The Bobcats very likely didn't pass on many better players. They passed on Knight, but got a better player at #9 in Walker. I'm sure somebody will be better than Biyombo, but it isn't like there was a no-brainer all star out there. There wasn't a no-brainer all star at #1 this year.


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## E.H. Munro

If the #1 pick turns out to be Jamal Tinsley-level talent? Yes, that's a bust. That's an indication that you needed to use the pick to offload salary and take back picks in better drafts.


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## HKF

Wait? The Heat got Norris Cole? God damnit. If they re-sign Chalmers, those two guys are the perfect kind of guys to play off Wade and Bron. Before Norris' breakout senior year, he was a lockdown defender at the point. He will become one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA (not saying he'll be Lindsey Hunter, but he'll be damn good).


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## Diable

The bobcats should have started rebuilding a couple of years ago and I have no problem with what they did tonight. I have no no clue what to think of Biyombo, but we are looking past next year and hopefully we can make the right moves to get good in the near future. Next year is going to be ugly though.


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## Jonathan Watters

E.H. Munro said:


> If the #1 pick turns out to be Jamal Tinsley-level talent? Yes, that's a bust. That's an indication that you needed to use the pick to offload salary and take back picks in better drafts.


You completely miss the point. You can make a blanket "what if" statement about any player in the draft. I think tonight proved that NBA teams actually did like the guy all along. If Jonas hadn't fallen to 5, I expect the Raptors would have happily scooped him up. 

Biyombo didn't become a productive player for a good team in the 2nd best league in the world in his 2nd season of competitive basketball by not knowing how to play the game. This "Bismack is a bust" train of thought just doesn't add up. He's not your typical African bust, very difficult to stereotype him that way if you actually watch him play and learn about who is as a person.


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## Jonathan Watters

And I really want to hear why JuJuan Johnson at #27 makes the Celtics losers. This ought to be a hoot...


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## Jonathan Watters

Some day, people are going to realize how important being a winner is. It isn't everything, but NBA teams want winners and there are enough talented winners out there that talented bums tend to slip through the cracks. This is why guys like Tristan Thompson and JuJuan Johnson were picked higher than expected, while "me first" types like Marcus Morris, Jordan Hamilton and Trey Thompkins slipped.


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## Nimreitz

I'm driving the Biyombo sucks train for a few reasons:

1) You're playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end, and it's not even going to be like Dwight Howard as a rookie because his hands are so bad I question whether he can even catch a pass and dunk the ball. I also doubt he's going to have an inherent ability to "know where to be" like Hansbrough or someone like that because he's played so little basketball in his life. And that's not even mentioning that all you have to do is foul him and put him on the line where he will brick everything he throws up.

2) Red flag on his back, concerns about his knees, not sure what his age is.

3) I hear about guys who are "ready to be a great defender from day one" every year. You know the only guys who that is ACTUALLY true about? Role players like Mbah a Moute who even then only get minutes because their team is so bad and they found the perfect situation. Truth is actual defensive ability is a lot harder to gauge than people make it out to be; it's much more about seeing the court and knowing when and where to go than it is about having long arms and jumping high. Ask Thabeet how his length, athleticism, and defensive accolades kept him on the court. Ask 2 time ACC Defensive Team player Solomon Alabi how his defense is keeping him in the league. Ben Wallace was a HELL of a lot more than an athletic dude with long arms, he was incredibly cerebral. Obviously great athleticism is necessary for one to be a great defender, but it's no where near sufficient, and I don't see ANYTHING that shows me Biyombo has anything other than athleticism.

4) This dude is going to have a lot of enemies. I'm hearing everyone praise the dude about how he constantly went over his coaches heads to get promoted to higher teams within his club. In some ways you want that, but in other ways, like for example not pissing off your coaching staff and teammates when chemistry means more in basketball than any other sport, it's VERY dangerous. In interviews I hear him describe himself as someone who "calls it like it is", which CAN be a good quality, but Biyombo verrrry much seems like the kind of guy who legitimately does that without any regard to external factors. Dangerous.


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## HKF

I have to feel bad for Brandon Knight as well because there's no guarantee that he will beat out Stuckey and Bynum for minutes in Detroit, especially considering he's not really a true point.


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## Jonathan Watters

I think he absolutely shows the ability to "know where to be" that you mention. It is what seperates him from other busts like Thabeet and Sene. 

And I don't see why defensive ability is so hard to project. There is an obvious learning curve, but Biyombo is a truly special athlete with special instincts. The guy just isn't the complete unknown everybody wants to make him out to be. Explain to me how he managed to be a productive player at such a high level so early if he has no instincts. How can you not see anything when its so blatantly obvious? I think people are just hung up on the African stereotype. 

As for Alabi, that's just a ridiculous comparison. That guy is about as timid as a human being can get. The polar opposite of everything we know about Biyombo.


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## PhillySixers87

I liked the Bobcats draft down the line. It's almost like they're setting up role players for when they draft a star in 2012 or 2013. Ya know pending Biyombo becoming a Wallace like center or something close to it. If I were a bobcat fan I'd rather they start from scratch and shoot for a top player in a loaded draft. I mean even with Jackson they were gonna be terrible.


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## Nimreitz

Jonathan Watters said:


> I think he absolutely shows the ability to "know where to be" that you mention. It is what seperates him from other busts like Thabeet and Sene.
> 
> And I don't see why defensive ability is so hard to project. There is an obvious learning curve, but Biyombo is a truly special athlete with special instincts. The guy just isn't the complete unknown everybody wants to make him out to be. Explain to me how he managed to be a productive player at such a high level so early if he has no instincts. How can you not see anything when its so blatantly obvious? I think people are just hung up on the African stereotype.
> 
> As for Alabi, that's just a ridiculous comparison. That guy is about as timid as a human being can get. The polar opposite of everything we know about Biyombo.


Okay, he played 17 minutes a game for 14 games for an average ACB team, a league which, while good, still had as it's best players this year Nic Caner-Medley and Jaycee Carroll. Don't go crazy. There's a reason why Euroleague stats are the ones used for projections and not domestic league stats.

EDIT: I also think Givony (and some of you guys as well) might just be prone to falling for this act. In addition to all the hyped guys, how about that Yarou guy at Villanova? Is there an African bias? Absolutely, because they don't grow up with basketball and as a result they are athletes and not players. Ibaka, the one exception who came over as an 18 year old, had both his of parents playing for the Congo National Team and started at a very early age with a club. You can talk "project, project, project" all you want, but for a lottery pick it's a myth; once the season tips off he's got to be more than a project or he's on the bench for good and the fans and coaches start thinking of him less and less.


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## hroz

I want to know what the Kings are doing they got rid of an expiring for a bad contract that lasts a few years plus they have no need for a SG. And they moved down the draft...............

And then they choose chucks happy Jimmer to complement chucker happy Evans Thornton Salmons. 

Bucks did good by upgrading from Maggette to Jackson and dropping Salmon's contract. Now they just need to dump Gooden and they would be sweet. IMO.


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## Ghost

Im pretty sure the Bobcats dont have their first round pick in 2012 or 2013 cant remember which one.

Chicago has it but it is protected If I remember right


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## Wade County

HKF said:


> Wait? The Heat got Norris Cole? God damnit. If they re-sign Chalmers, those two guys are the perfect kind of guys to play off Wade and Bron. Before Norris' breakout senior year, he was a lockdown defender at the point. He will become one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA (not saying he'll be Lindsey Hunter, but he'll be damn good).


Well, I got no idea who Norris Cole is - but if HKF likes it, im sold :laugh:


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## croco

HKF said:


> I have to feel bad for Brandon Knight as well because there's no guarantee that he will beat out Stuckey and Bynum for minutes in Detroit, especially considering he's not really a true point.


Depends on who is going to be named the new head coach for the Pistons. Regardless, Knight will start for Detroit rather sooner than later even though it might not be on opening day (whenever that might be). 

I liked what the Celtics did, Johnson and Moore will be solid role players in the NBA. They have talent, length, the right attitude and improved throughout their entire college careers.


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## Zach

Wade County said:


> Well, I got no idea who Norris Cole is - but if HKF likes it, im sold :laugh:


He's a very good player. But he kinda needs the ball in his hands quite a bit.


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## E.H. Munro

Jonathan Watters said:


> And I really want to hear why JuJuan Johnson at #27 makes the Celtics losers. This ought to be a hoot...


Because he can't play any position but the one position where Boston already has two backups to Kevin Garnett? And because Johnson can't play the 5 at all Boston is going to have to bring Davis back meaning that Johnson won't get on the floor at all? 

In other words, they drafted a superfluous player who will not impact their team at all next year, and if you're not drafting a guy that will have an immediate impact, and not drafting a guy with upside, what the hell is the point of making the selection? A future first, no matter how low, would have been much better value than another guy who'll barely play more minutes in the NBA than I will next year.


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## Diable

JaJuan Johnson is a good value where the C's got him. His frame is a problem in the pros, but he is going to be a decent NBA player and that is a good thing when you are drafting that low.


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## Pacers Fan

I don't know where people are getting these Sene/Thabeet/Alabi comparisons for Biyombo. The guy is a PF and is much quicker laterally and off his feet than those guys. Sure, he has a lot of bust potential, but the guy can carve out a niche in the NBA and I have no doubts in his ability to be an eventual starter for Charlotte.

Winners: 

Utah - Kanter and Burks should be solid backups from Day 1 and eventual starters down the line

Wizards - Added more athleticism. John Wall's going to be throwing lobs to Vesely and McGee now! If Vesely's athleticism doesn't turn him into a solid defender, they picked up Chris Singleton who already is. Shelvin Mack was a superb pickup in the 2nd round.

Pacers - George Hill returns!

Bucks - Moved down in the draft for Stephen Jackson and some role players, then picked up Tobias Harris. Not bad.

Boston - I loved Marshon Brooks' fit for them, but I think Johnson works out even more. He has some issues with his lack of muscle, but he's shown the willingness to work on his game and work on his physique, so I think he'll be just fine and see some spot minutes at C for the C's. Adding E'Twaun Moore was just icing on the cake. 

Pistons - Picked up the falling Brandon Knight, although how much he plays over Stuckey and Bynum is an unknown. I'm not a fan of the Singler pick, but they did nab Vernon Macklin at the end of the draft, who actually might have a little NBA scoring ability.

Rockets - I wasn't a fan of the Marcus Morris pick, but it's good value. This is mainly because they got a good backup PG in Flynn, as well as getting Motiejunas in that Wolves deal.

Nets - Marshon Brooks should be a spectacular fit.


Meh:

Toronto Raptors

Kings - Traded down 3 spots to get their guy, but downgraded from Udrih to Salmons. Honeycutt and Isaiah Thomas were excellent value picks and have good chances to make the roster.

Suns

Sixers

Blazers - Nolan Smith went high, but he should be a good fit, and I guess the Blazers are giving up on Mills and Johnson. I would've rather seen Faried go there, but at least they did manage to snag Raymond Felton, who should be better for their offense than Dre.

Denver - Picking up Faried was nice, but I don't know how Andre Miller's supposed to help them. I guess nabbing Jordan Hamilton was good.

Heat - Norris Cole sounds like a solid pick, but I don't see him doing much good immediately.

The rest of the draft was also meh, but I think the Warriors did a great job of buying Jeremy Tyler, the Lakers piked two completely opposite PG's and one of them should be able to contribute, and Josh Selby should be an absolute steal for Memphis.



Losers:

Cavs - They could've walked away with Williams/Knight, Williams/Walker, Irving/Valanciunas, or Irving/Vesely, but they picked Tristan Thompson. I'm just not a fan at all.

Timberwolves - In addition to not swinging a trade and having the most PG and Forward-infested roster in NBA history, the Timberwolves managed to successful piss off every team in the league during trade talks, except the Houston Rockets, who simply took them in that trade. Really? Jonny Flynn for Brad Miller, trading down from 20 to 23, and being compensated with Chandler Parsons and a 1st round pick? That's horrible. Then they even ditched Mirotic. I lost track of how many times they tried to trade down or out of this draft, only to also trade Flynn for Brad Miller in the process.

Warriors - I'm just not a Klay Thompson fan at all. Not like anyone else at that point was more proven, but at least get someone who can stay in front of his man. Jenkins should turn into a good pick-up, though.

Knicks - Did they really pay for Josh Harrellson? Shumpert's okay, but I'm wondering where he'll fit into their rotation. I would've gone with a big man.


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## E.H. Munro

Diable said:


> JaJuan Johnson is a good value where the C's got him. His frame is a problem in the pros, but he is going to be a decent NBA player and that is a good thing when you are drafting that low.


The problem is that he's superfluous in Boston, which brings me back to the question, if you're not drafting a guy that's going to have an immediate impact, and not drafting a guy with upside, why not get the hell out of the round and pick up a future first in a better draft? That's my problem with the pick. 

However, listening to Ainge being interviewed just now, it looks like they're getting ready to make a run at Chris Paul, and Green may be outbound (reading between the lines, he admitted that their plan was to get the roster ready to make a max signing next summer and they're not taking on any long term deals, which presumably includes Green).


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## Jonathan Watters

Nimreitz said:


> Okay, he played 17 minutes a game for 14 games for an average ACB team, a league which, while good, still had as it's best players this year Nic Caner-Medley and Jaycee Carroll. Don't go crazy. There's a reason why Euroleague stats are the ones used for projections and not domestic league stats.
> 
> EDIT: I also think Givony (and some of you guys as well) might just be prone to falling for this act. In addition to all the hyped guys, how about that Yarou guy at Villanova? Is there an African bias? Absolutely, because they don't grow up with basketball and as a result they are athletes and not players. Ibaka, the one exception who came over as an 18 year old, had both his of parents playing for the Congo National Team and started at a very early age with a club. You can talk "project, project, project" all you want, but for a lottery pick it's a myth; once the season tips off he's got to be more than a project or he's on the bench for good and the fans and coaches start thinking of him less and less.


Well, you are thinking of Caner-Medley and Jaycee Carroll in college. Carroll is every bit an NBA player, and after half a decade in the ACB league Caner-Medley would have averaged 30 ppg against college competition. 

I've watched Yarou plenty, and I don't see much similarity to Biyombo. And I'm not talking "project". You are talking "project". I see a guy who has elite defensive tools and instincts and contributed in a very substantial way (20 mpg in Europe, where even the stars rarely play much more than 30 mpg, absolutely isn't the same as it is in college) at an extremely high level. 

I really don't care about his offense. His offense is a project, but that isn't why he is being drafted. In this draft, if you get a guy who projects to be elite on one end of the floor, you take him.


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## Jonathan Watters

E.H. Munro said:


> Because he can't play any position but the one position where Boston already has two backups to Kevin Garnett? And because Johnson can't play the 5 at all Boston is going to have to bring Davis back meaning that Johnson won't get on the floor at all?
> 
> In other words, they drafted a superfluous player who will not impact their team at all next year, and if you're not drafting a guy that will have an immediate impact, and not drafting a guy with upside, what the hell is the point of making the selection? A future first, no matter how low, would have been much better value than another guy who'll barely play more minutes in the NBA than I will next year.


What the hell do you expect to get with the #27 pick? Go back and look at picks 25-29, and tell me what % of them ever play major minutes on an NBA court. Then figure out how many do it in their first 2 years. 

I already know the answer, but since you are either ignorant on the topic or playing dumb, go ahead a tell me what I already know. 

Fact of the matter is that Johnson needs to add weight, and playing understudy to Kevin Garnett (who Johnson resembles quite a bit on the offensive end) for a couple of years is just about the perfect situation. 

If you actually thought the Celtics were going to get a guy who could play minutes for them next year at freaking #27, you have no business commenting on the draft.


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## Jonathan Watters

croco said:


> Depends on who is going to be named the new head coach for the Pistons. Regardless, Knight will start for Detroit rather sooner than later even though it might not be on opening day (whenever that might be).
> 
> I liked what the Celtics did, Johnson and Moore will be solid role players in the NBA. They have talent, length, the right attitude and improved throughout their entire college careers.


Johnson has NBA length and athleticism. He has the ability to create his own shot in the mid-post vs anybody. He was the only post player on one of the top 5 defensive teams in college basketball last year. He is an extremely late bloomer from a physical perspective, to the point where the recruiting analysts weren't even sure he'd be an impact college player. But he has shown steady improvement every season since he was 15, not sure why he would stop now. 

I have no idea why people think JuJuan Johnson doesn't have the upside to be more than a roleplayer.


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## E.H. Munro

Jonathan Watters said:


> What the hell do you expect to get with the #27 pick?


What do I expect from the 25th pick? If the best that you can do is a superfluous player that has no upside and won't make an immediate impact, _and another team wants that pick_ then I expect you to count your lucky stars and get the hell out the first round.



Jonathan Watters said:


> If you actually thought the Celtics were going to get a guy who could play minutes for them next year at freaking #27, you have no business commenting on the draft.


If you were any denser you'd achieve critical mass. How many more ways can I say "They should have got the hell out of the first round entirely," before light finally dawns on Marblehead?


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## Jonathan Watters

Yes, JuJuan Johnson's guaranteed $2 mil contract that they will end up paying to somebody else anyways...a life and death situation over there in Boston.

How dense are you?


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## E.H. Munro

What the hell does JuJuan Johnson's contract have to do with anything? We get it, he's Orien Greene v2 and you guys love him, and when he's out of the NBA you'll say "I have no idea what you're talking about." But Boston just drafted a player that literally won't play for them at all next year, and might never play a single minute for them as their entire strategy is to sign an A-List player next summer and Johnson could find himself given away to another team with cap space anyway. So, again, I just can't see any purpose to drafting a 215lb power forward when they could have simply gotten a protected future first from the Nets for #25 instead.


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## Jonathan Watters

I will never say "I have no idea what you are talking about" when it comes to a misguided opinion about the draft. Never have, and never will. 

However, this is a fairly low risk projection. There is extremely little value in a #27 pick, and if he doesn't turn out the Celtics are no worse off. They know this, and they know that JuJuan Johnson was worthy of a late first round pick in any draft, probably a lottery pick in this horrible one. 

Celtics had to either trade or use the pick, they added a future 2nd rounder and got a guy who was easily the best prospect left on the board. 

And you are trying to tell me that because they didn't move the pick they are draft losers. What upside was there in moving the pick? If this draft is so horrible that there is nobody available that could help them, why would the Nets give up a future first? If the pick is protected, what is so great about a future first vs a future 2nd? If the Nets stay terrible, it will likely be an early 2nd round pick? 

You'll never convince me that selling the pick would have been a better idea...


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## BlakeJesus

Selling it for cash would have been the best case scenario.


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## o.iatlhawksfan

I think the Jazz were winners in this draft. Enes Kanter has a shot to be the best player in this draft im. Next to Derrick Favors that will be a nice young front court to watch develop. It also make Al Jefferson expendable.


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## E.H. Munro

Jonathan Watters said:


> And you are trying to tell me that because they didn't move the pick they are draft losers. What upside was there in moving the pick?


Rudy Fernandez? The guy that Dallas got for the pick _after_ Boston's? A future Nets first that Boston could have tossed into its trade assets box along with the future Clippers first in preparation for the winter trade season when the Magic give up the ghost on Howard and the NBA looks to trade Chris Paul for something like approximate value? In other words, there was a lot of upside to moving out of the first round entirely.


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## SheriffKilla

I don't know I like what the Bobcats did, who knows if Biyombo will be good or not. That's why he is high risk/reward but he is worth it for a team like the Bobcats who have nothing to lose anyway. Like what the Jazz and Clippers did too.

I thought the Warriors were pretty off, Klay Thopmson is cool but there was a lot better talent available at that point that play the same position. Guys like Tobias Harris, Jordan Hamilton, Kawhi Leonard and so on.


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## Jonathan Watters

E.H. Munro said:


> Rudy Fernandez? The guy that Dallas got for the pick _after_ Boston's? A future Nets first that Boston could have tossed into its trade assets box along with the future Clippers first in preparation for the winter trade season when the Magic give up the ghost on Howard and the NBA looks to trade Chris Paul for something like approximate value? In other words, there was a lot of upside to moving out of the first round entirely.


Your entire premise is based on the Nets trading a future first with significant value for a worthless 2011 first, and that the potential value of this mythical pick that the Nets were willing to give away for nothing is going to be significant in the acquisition of Chris freaking Paul. Oh, don't forget to throw in how worthless that 2nd round pick is, the one that would be no more than 15 spots behind our mythical first round pick that is going to win the Celtics Chris freaking Paul. 

In other words, a whole lotta nonsense.


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## Porn Player

Winners: 

Raptors organisation 

Losers: 

Raptors fans


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## E.H. Munro

Jonathan Watters said:


> Your entire premise is based on the Nets trading a future first with significant value for a worthless 2011 first


So, what you're saying is that ability to draft a lottery-level talent was worthless? Your words, not mine. There's a whole lotta nonsense in this debate, as usual it's coming from your keyboard. You should get that checked. (I mean, how many teams do you think have the ability to be able to make a like-value trade for Paul? Hint, Boston and OKC are two of a very short list.)


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## Jamel Irief

What's boston got that no wants? Rondo and green? Is this one of your jokes where you post a smiley with big teeth after?


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## HB

At the time of the Raps picking Jonas I thought it was a horrible pick. Especially since Kemba and Knight are on the board, but supposedly the guy is pretty skilled. With the buyout, he wont come over this year. Team stinks yet again, get into the lotto next year. Pick one of the many star players and voila! they have some assets and some guys that can actually contribute.


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## Wade County

Yeah, I see the Raptos thinking. They werent going anywhere next yeear anyway, so pick the best talent, wait a year and suck, get a top 3 pick in 2012 and you just scored to top 5 poicks to add to your team.


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## E.H. Munro

Jamel Irief said:


> What's boston got that no wants? Rondo and green? Is this one of your jokes where you post a smiley with big teeth after?


Boston and OKC have all star point guards to trade. The NBA isn't going to be able to get a whole lot more than that for Paul. And as the team is owned by the league, Odom & Artest or Billups aren't going to be acceptable packages.


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## Nimreitz

I like JuJuan Johnson. Probably the best you're going to do at 27.


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## Tom

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> I think the Jazz were winners in this draft. Enes Kanter has a shot to be the best player in this draft im. Next to Derrick Favors that will be a nice young front court to watch develop. It also make Al Jefferson expendable.



I think Al Jefferson should be there for a while just because the dude knows how to score. These guys don't have a clue how to put the ball in the basket. They need to learn from him.


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## HB

Nimreitz said:


> I like JuJuan Johnson. Probably the best you're going to do at 27.


Lol not for the Celts


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## Jonathan Watters

Jamel Irief said:


> What's boston got that no wants? Rondo and green? Is this one of your jokes where you post a smiley with big teeth after?


Apparently a first round pick in the high 20's would make all the difference. I would definitely make that deal. But that early 2nd, that would be worthless...


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## Ballscientist

Spurs are the biggest loser for the year. Lose George Hill could cost them a playoffs spot. Rookies are not ready.

Down from 1 to Lotto?


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## hobojoe

HKF said:


> To me the Bobcats are fully tanking for the next two years (2012 & 2013 drafts), hoping to get real franchise changing talent. Have you checked their roster before this? I mean that team (other than Minnesota, Washington and Cleveland) might be the worst team top to bottom in the league talent wise. I'll give Cho a chance though to make things happen.


How does Washington get grouped in with Cleveland, Minnesota and Charlotte in terms of talent? The Wizards have a decent young core to build around.


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## HKF

Even with the Wall, their bigs are so dumb, it's hard to envision them doing much yet. I don't see the direction yet. Young core or not, I still think it's a bad team and I like Singleton/Mack as a draft group. The Wizards were pretty awful last year and a lot of the knuckleheads are still on the roster.


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## BlakeJesus

I think they are hoping to be better than those other teams solely because of Wall's ability to push the ball and all of their players being able to run. You don't have to have an overly high basketball IQ to run up and down the court.


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## hobojoe

HKF said:


> Even with the Wall, their bigs are so dumb, it's hard to envision them doing much yet. I don't see the direction yet. Young core or not, I still think it's a bad team and I like Singleton/Mack as a draft group. The Wizards were pretty awful last year and a lot of the knuckleheads are still on the roster.


If they just ditch Blatche that'll alleviate the vast majority of that, no?


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## E.H. Munro

HKF said:


> Even with the Wall, their bigs are so dumb, it's hard to envision them doing much yet. I don't see the direction yet. Young core or not, I still think it's a bad team and I like Singleton/Mack as a draft group. The Wizards were pretty awful last year and a lot of the knuckleheads are still on the roster.


I'm behind you with Blatche, I'm not sure that McGee is all that bad (which shouldn't be interpreted as an endorsement of his court smarts, I just don't think that he's any worse than guys like Perkins or Odom). They really do need to unload Blatche, though. He's two knuckleheads wrapped into one.


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## bball2223

They need to dump Blatche for sure. McGee isn't so much a knucklehead, but every time I have ever seen him play he seems to lack basketball IQ. I like what the Wizards have done in the past couple of drafts and they are probably as athletic as any team in the league now, but they are still a couple years away from the playoffs.


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## hobojoe

E.H. Munro said:


> I'm behind you with Blatche, I'm not sure that McGee is all that bad (which shouldn't be interpreted as an endorsement of his court smarts, I just don't think that he's any worse than guys like Perkins or Odom). They really do need to unload Blatche, though. He's two knuckleheads wrapped into one.


That's what I'm saying, I don't think it's that much of a roster issue as it is just one guy. McGee doesn't seem to really be a bad apple, and he's a nice player too.


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## HB

Really surprised at the way Sacramento is viewing Jimmer. Seems the city won with the pick. They are talking about him being a rockstar out there.


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## E.H. Munro

bball2223 said:


> They need to dump Blatche for sure. McGee isn't so much a knucklehead, but every time I have ever seen him play he seems to lack basketball IQ. I like what the Wizards have done in the past couple of drafts and they are probably as athletic as any team in the league now, but they are still a couple years away from the playoffs.


I'm not arguing that he doesn't make the occasional boneheaded play. Hence my comparison to a pair of guys notorious for occasionally forgetting where they are. What I don't see in McGee is that Blatchian streak of bloody-minded nincompoopness. Blatche regularly forgets that he's playing in the NBA. I swear sometimes that he doesn't know the difference between Madison Square Garden and Rucker Park. 



hobojoe said:


> That's what I'm saying, I don't think it's that much of a roster issue as it is just one guy. McGee doesn't seem to really be a bad apple, and he's a nice player too.


Well, I'm not sure that it's just one guy, per se. I agree they need to unload Blatche on some GM desperate enough to pull the trigger. But they have an awful lot of kids on that roster. The time is here for them to start bringing in some vets to stabilise things there. The worst thing you can do to a player like Wall is leave him in charge of an NBA kindergarten. 

They need some guys there to tell the Nick Youngs and JaVale McGees that they're full of **** and get them to focus more on what's happening on the court. Look at how much Perkins improved, mentally, after Boston dumped the kiddie corps and brought in all those vets in 2008. Perkins wasn't happy about it, but he'd be the first to tell you that all those stronger personalities improved his on-court focus.


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## Diable

I am actually pretty interested to see how Wall develops this season. I was pretty underwhelmed by him this past season and a lot of the stuff I did not like was a lack of fundamentals and poor decision making. I realize that the talent on that team wasn't great, but I did not really see much impact from him and unless he becomes a lot more efficient I do not know that we shall see the impact that was expected of him.


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## Nimreitz

HB said:


> Lol not for the Celts


You don't consider needs at 27 because no one you're going to get there will fill any of them.



HB said:


> Really surprised at the way Sacramento is viewing Jimmer. Seems the city won with the pick. They are talking about him being a rockstar out there.


Must not be any black folks in Sacramento, because only ****** could rally behind Jimmer as the next big thing.


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## Pacers Fan

Diable said:


> I am actually pretty interested to see how Wall develops this season. I was pretty underwhelmed by him this past season and a lot of the stuff I did not like was a lack of fundamentals and poor decision making. I realize that the talent on that team wasn't great, but I did not really see much impact from him and unless he becomes a lot more efficient I do not know that we shall see the impact that was expected of him.


Wall's the kind of PG that needs decent players around him for him to be any good. He's not really close to either, but I see more Chris Paul in him than Derrick Rose. He's not going to score 30 points a night to lead his team to victory. Keep in mind that his best offensive options are Nick Young, Jordan Crawford, and Andray Blatche, followed by Rashard Lewis, Josh Howard, and the occasional alley-oop to JaVale McGee. The Wizards have a ton of selfish isolation players and that's not the kind of team that's going to have success with John Wall.



> Must not be any black folks in Sacramento, because only ****** could rally behind Jimmer as the next big thing.


If Tupac were still alive, he would be rocking a purple Jimmer Fredette jersey.


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## apatel

Loser...Knicks
I was extremely disappointed with their pick. They could have gotten much better talent. A few to name...Kenneth Faried, Nolan Smith, Tobias Harris, Jordan Hamilton.


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## GNG

Nimreitz said:


> Biyombo is the worst top 10 pick in the last 5 years. At least.


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## Nimreitz

Yeah, we'll see.


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## Nimreitz

HKF said:


> Wait? The Heat got Norris Cole? God damnit. If they re-sign Chalmers, those two guys are the perfect kind of guys to play off Wade and Bron. Before Norris' breakout senior year, he was a lockdown defender at the point. He will become one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA (not saying he'll be Lindsey Hunter, but he'll be damn good).


I can't stop thinking about HKF riding this guy for years whenever I hear Norris Cole's name, so I'll bump this.


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## E.H. Munro

Jonathan Watters said:


> And I really want to hear why JuJuan Johnson at #27 makes the Celtics losers. This ought to be a hoot...


In fairness I have to admit that you were right, the Celtics were winners in the 2011 draft, as they turned the "guy that would have been picked over Kyrie Irving if he were 50 lbs heavier" and their "shooting guard of the future" into Courtney Lee. But you would think that with that much talent going out they could have done better than a decent SG.


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## Wade County

Solid bump.


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## zagsfan20

Lillard sux!!!!!!!!!!! 

D'oh


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## E.H. Munro

I'm pretty sure that I said that Lowry's better than Lillard, which is true because Lowry's pretty damned good. Which is just a _little_ different than saying that Lillard sucks. And it would definitely have been a better idea to have paired the 27 year old LMA with a vet point guard like Lowry rather than wasting two years of his prime for Lillard to get up to speed.


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## zagsfan20

E.H. Munro said:


> I'm pretty sure that I said that Lowry's better than Lillard, which is true because Lowry's pretty damned good. Which is just a _little_ different than saying that Lillard sucks. And it would definitely have been a better idea to have paired the 27 year old LMA with a vet point guard like Lowry rather than wasting two years of his prime for Lillard to get up to speed.


I'm referring to your draft grades rant.


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## E.H. Munro

I know what you're referring to, hence my going back and restating what I explicitly said. That the 'Blazers rejected a better player than Lillard for the #6 pick when their cornerstone player is 27 and will spend his prime spinning his wheels waiting for Lillard to figure out the position. If Lillard were a franchise player, then maybe they'd have a point. But I just don't see it. They'd still be better off with Lowry.


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## zagsfan20

You act like at 27, Aldridge is peaking out of his prime...


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## E.H. Munro

NBA players' prime years tend to be 25-29. LMA is in the middle is his prime. Rather than adding a real running mate at the top of his game they went out and grabbed a kid so that Aldridge can waste his prime hoping that Lillard gets as good as Lowry is. Bad move.


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## zagsfan20

E.H. Munro said:


> NBA players' prime years tend to be 25-29. LMA is in the middle is his prime. Rather than adding a real running mate at the top of his game they went out and grabbed a kid so that Aldridge can waste his prime hoping that Lillard gets as good as Lowry is. Bad move.


Lillard's 22, the learning curve should take as long as a guy drafted as a 19 or 20 year old. Lillard has a chance to be way better than Lowry. Looking around the league at the great players, I'd say the prime years stretch out a little further than you would say, its a case by case basis though and many variables have to be taken to account. Aldridge's game isn't predicated on physicality, I think he'll play good into his early 30's. 

Were banking on a core of Lillard, Batum and Aldridge. There's only about 4-5 years between them.

I think many other pundits would agree with me that Lillard has a much higher ceiling than Lowry.


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## E.H. Munro

Physically speaking the human body hits its athletic peak between the ages of 21 and 25 and begins declining thereafter. In basketball the peak performance years tend to be 25-29 because it's the age range where the skills have caught up to the athleticism. But very few people have primes that last past 30. Given that Aldridge has had back & knee problems already, counting on him to have an extended prime is iffy. 

There is also a zero percent chance that Lillard ever "becomes way better than Lowry" because to be _that_ good you have to be in the CP3 stratosphere. Ain't happenin'. And as he's coming out of a small college program and going straight to the NBA there's also a zero percent chance that he he hits peak from day one. So, to review, I specifically _didn't_ say that Lillard sucked and it was still a bad move for the 'Blazers.


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## Nimreitz

What's the big deal, the Blazers aren't winning a title unless they hit the jackpot, definitely not with Lowry. I'm not crazy about Lillard either, but I understand taking a gamble like that and hoping he turns into Westbrook or whatever.


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## zagsfan20

E.H. Munro said:


> Physically speaking the human body hits its athletic peak between the ages of 21 and 25 and begins declining thereafter. In basketball the peak performance years tend to be 25-29 because it's the age range where the skills have caught up to the athleticism. But very few people have primes that last past 30. Given that Aldridge has had back & knee problems already, counting on him to have an extended prime is iffy.
> 
> There is also a zero percent chance that Lillard ever "becomes way better than Lowry" because to be _that_ good you have to be in the CP3 stratosphere. Ain't happenin'. And as he's coming out of a small college program and going straight to the NBA there's also a zero percent chance that he he hits peak from day one. So, to review, I specifically _didn't_ say that Lillard sucked and it was still a bad move for the 'Blazers.


There's no tier of PG's between Lowry and CP3? I beg to differ.

Executives all over the league have been blown away by Lillard's play in the SL. Don't get carried away with it being just the SL. The game's coming easy to him, he looks awesome in the pick and roll, he's getting to the rim and finishing at will.

I think we got a special one.


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## zagsfan20

Garnett and Duncan in their mid-30's are still 20+ PER players. I'm not too worried about the window closing.


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## Nimreitz

And zagsfan, don't get carried away with the summer league and "the game is coming easy to him". There is a looong list of shitty players who have dominated in Summer League. My hero Skita is one.


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## rynobot

I think Skita would have had some success in the league if he were 18 right now instead of 10 years ago.


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## Nimreitz

Only because he would have been drafted 25th and stayed in Europe for 3 years.


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## E.H. Munro

Nimreitz said:


> And zagsfan, don't get carried away with the summer league and "the game is coming easy to him". There is a looong list of shitty players who have dominated in Summer League. My hero Skita is one.


I mean, just look at how Marcus Banks went on to a hall of fame career after dominating the summer league.


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## JonMatrix

Kwame Brown also beasted during summer league the one year.


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## zagsfan20

Portland fans have reason to be excited.


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