# Bobcats and Clippers trade almost done



## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

Charlotte sending 1st and 2nd round picks to LA for the 2nd overall pick and another player to be named later from the Expansion draft. 

-ESPNEWS

I would think Charlotte will take some contracts off too.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

So how do the Bobcats pick? Howard, Livingston or Deng.

And does this mean that Clips pick whomever is left between Gordon and Livingston.

Assuming Howard is the pick at #2, it seems like we just lost some of our trading power unless Hawks really, really want Livingston.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

*"With the 2nd pick in the 2004 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select Shaun Livingston from Peoria Central HS in Peoria, Illinois."*


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> *"With the 2nd pick in the 2004 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select Shaun Livingston from Peoria Central HS in Peoria, Illinois."*


I'm afraid you are correct. :no:


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> *"With the 2nd pick in the 2004 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select Shaun Livingston from Peoria Central HS in Peoria, Illinois."*


haha, I can see it now. Clippers might like Gordon too though.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

Is there a link that I can read up on?


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

Don't know what's going to happen, but I thought LA would end up with Gordan by trading down with someone. 

The first of many interesting moves.

arenas, are you plssed?


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> *"With the 2nd pick in the 2004 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select Shaun Livingston from Peoria Central HS in Peoria, Illinois."*


http://www.nba.com/bobcats/draft_central_workouts_061904.html

"I think it’s a good basketball class. I haven’t seen any LeBron’s or Magic’s or Bird’s. So, to me that would be the key if it were top heavy. If you had something to really distinguish yourself. I think where (Okafor and Howard) distinguish themselves is because of size and we are kind of partial to size in this league. 

It sounds to me like Bernie has a hankering for Okafor and Howard. And that makes sense. Fear not Arenas, your guy Livingston is going to be there at #4 unless the Bulls trade down and someone moves up to #3 and grabs him.


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Weasel</b>!
> Is there a link that I can read up on?



Nothing yet on ESPN.com. Check out ESPNEWs in 15 minutes if you got it. They'll say it again. I'm not here to spew bs.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Would Atlanta trade us 6 and 17 if Howard was still on the board at 3?


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## Kramer (Jul 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> *"With the 2nd pick in the 2004 NBA Draft, the Charlotte Bobcats select Shaun Livingston from Peoria Central HS in Peoria, Illinois."*


You think?!? I think they're moving up to take Howard/Okafor. 

If Charlotte didn't trade up, a good assumption is that the Hawks would've traded up to #2 to get Howard (assuming Okafor went #1). Since we probably wouldn't select Livingston at 3, he would've been sitting there for Charlotte at the 4 spot anyway. It doesn't make much sense for Charlotte to move up to 2 just to get Livingston, but if they want him THAT bad, then I guess you can't argue with it.

I hope you're right and they do take Livingston there, cuz if Howard or Okafor drops to us that really increases our pick's trade value. 

(Oh God, I don't want us to pick Okafor and trade Tyson though...)


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

All I know is the Clippers better believe that either Gordon or Livingston is there with the 4th pick, or they just screwed the pooch.


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

There is no guarantee the Magic take Okafor yet though. They could very well end up with Howard while Bernie wets himself as Okafor falls to 2. Chicago takes _______ (not Livingston).


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBulls2315</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing yet on ESPN.com. Check out ESPNEWs in 15 minutes if you got it. They'll say it again. I'm not here to spew bs.


Didn't mean to sound like I didn't believe you, I just wanted to read about it, I trust your info. Unfortunately I do not have ESPNEWS.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

I am pretty sure the Bobcats will take Okafor or Howard. They want a big guy to start the franchise which is a smart thing.

I am kinda expecting Howard to go #1 to Orlando, Okafor #2 to Charlotte, Deng #3 to Chicago.

The question is Livingston or Gordon at #4 who will it be?

I also think that Josh Smith will almost definately go #6 now.


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## WhoDaBest23 (Apr 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> Would Atlanta trade us 6 and 17 if Howard was still on the board at 3?


That could be interesting...

Livingston at #4 is good for the Clippers. It'd suck for them if one of the 3 teams above screw them over and picks him. Lol.


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Weasel</b>!
> 
> 
> Didn't mean to sound like I didn't believe you, I just wanted to read about it, I trust your info. Unfortunately I do not have ESPNEWS.



Didn't mean to come off like that either.  It shouldn't be too long before someone has it though.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

SI is reporting the intent of the deal is for Charlotte to use the #2 to take Okafor or Howard and the Clips will take Livingston at #4, as they are confident the Bulls won't draft another PG.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...4/06/21/bc.bkn.clippers.bobcats.ap/index.html



> NEW YORK (AP) -- The Charlotte Bobcats were close to finalizing a trade Monday with the Los Angeles Clippers for a swap of first-round draft choices, giving the NBA's newest franchise a chance to select Dwight Howard or Emeka Okafor with the No. 2 overall pick.
> 
> Charlotte would send the No. 4 overall pick, along with a second-round pick (No. 33 overall), to Los Angeles for the No. 2 choice and the rights to center Predrag Drobnjak, four league sources told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity.
> 
> ...


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

I'm not going to say much because I've done the research for myself...

Bernie wants Livingston, Bernie will take Livingston.

I'm convinced of that. 

The interest is there and the fact that he was at 10 of SL's games this past season more than shows he's done his due diligence to the kid.

The Clippers were his only threat, and now he's eliminated them from the process.

If he wanted Howard he could have called the Bulls for 3, not once did we hear about Bulls-Bobcats anything.

I'm done.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> SI is reporting the intent of the deal is for Charlotte to use the #2 to take Okafor or Howard and the Clips will take Livingston at #4, as they are confident the Bulls won't draft another PG.
> 
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...4/06/21/bc.bkn.clippers.bobcats.ap/index.html


If this is the case, is there any teams willing to trade up to get Livingston?

Hold the pick for ransom I say....


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

Thank you for the link TomBoerwinkle#1.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

I agree but I doubt the Clippers would be too upset if Livingston was gone. I am not sure they don't want Gordon anyway.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> SI is reporting the intent of the deal is for Charlotte to use the #2 to take Okafor or Howard and the Clips will take Livingston at #4, as they are confident the Bulls won't draft another PG.
> 
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...4/06/21/bc.bkn.clippers.bobcats.ap/index.html


Nice move by the Bobcats. Very, very cheap price for moving up 2 spots to #2 in a 2-person draft.

I can see why the Clips would do this, but seems like they should wait until draft time to pull the trigger. Now the other GMs have more time to concentrate on getting the 3rd pick as #1 and #2 are locked up.

Our leverage has really dropped unless another team goes nuts for Livingston IMHO.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> I'm not going to say much because I've done the research for myself...
> 
> Bernie wants Livingston, Bernie will take Livingston.
> ...


If you're right, then we all underestimated Bernie. I was convinced the guy didn't know what he was doing and maybe I will have to eat some crow.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

This is interesting if the deal works out the Clippers could get the man they want and then another pick early in the second round.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Very nice move by the bobcats!


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> All I know is the Clippers better believe that either Gordon or Livingston is there with the 4th pick, or they just screwed the pooch.


With the 2nd pick, the Bobcats select the woman in your avatar.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> 
> If you're right, then we all underestimated Bernie. I was convinced the guy didn't know what he was doing and maybe I will have to eat some crow.


I'll be glad to eat some too if that's what he's doing.

However, wouldn't he have to assure the Clippers that he's not going to draft Livingston before the Clips agree to this trade (if Shaun is really their guy)?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> 
> If you're right, then we all underestimated Bernie. I was convinced the guy didn't know what he was doing and maybe I will have to eat some crow.


That's exactly why I was hoping the Clippers would just bite the bullet and pick Livingston. Bernie said he didn't want any HS players, but when push came to shove, a 6'8 PG doesn't come along very often and if he pans out, then they have themselves a superstar for 10-15 years. 

*******s.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> That's exactly why I was hoping the Clippers would just bite the bullet and pick Livingston. Bernie said he didn't want any HS players, but when push came to shove, a 6'8 PG doesn't come along very often and if he pans out, then they have themselves a superstar for 10-15 years.
> ...


Why are you so sure the Bobcats don't want one of the PF's, HKF?


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> I'm not going to say much because I've done the research for myself...
> 
> Bernie wants Livingston, Bernie will take Livingston.
> ...


That's stupid. Howard and Okafor will definately go 1 and 2. Howard might not even be there at #2.
Orlando is split on who to take at #1.

There was no chance Howard would be there at #3 thats why you never heard of a Bulls-Bobcats deal.

At #2 the Bobcats are now assured Howard or Okafor.

The Clippers at #4 are assured Gordon or Livingston.

Had they traded down with Atlanta teams could have traded up and in some scenarios the Clippers would be screwed at #6 without getting Gordon or Livingston.

This trade works out for Charlotte and Los Angeles.

The Bobcats will absolutely not take Livingston at #2. It is way too much of a risk and you definately want a young big man to build around.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> However, wouldn't he have to assure the Clippers that he's not going to draft Livingston before the Clips agree to this trade (if Shaun is really their guy)?



I hope there was some honorable gurantee on this topic.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> However, wouldn't he have to assure the Clippers that he's not going to draft Livingston before the Clips agree to this trade (if Shaun is really their guy)?


Why would they? The Clippers could have expressed interest in moving down for money reasons. 

This also makes the Hawks trading with the Bulls much more likely, if Howard is there at No. 3. 

This has never been a two man draft, no matter what the TV talking heads have been saying.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

why dont the bulls offer no.3 +something to the clippers for no.2? with no.3 the clippers will 100% be sure to take whoever they want(not oakfor or howard, they dont want them anyway). if the clippers trade with bobcats, they still probably be able to pick who they really want, but its not 100%, its more like 99.5% the extra .5% might make the deal. obviously the something has to be more attractive than what the bobcats are offering along with their no.4 pick. the clippers right now only has 2 potential trading parnters that will 100% land them either ben gordon or livingston that is chicago and the bobcats. if they make a trade with the wizards, the bulls might take gordon and the bobcats might take livingston. so lets do it pax! offer something +no.3 for the no.2 

if we get the no.2 we will have much much better trading options.


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## Kramer (Jul 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> This has never been a two man draft, no matter what the TV talking heads have been saying.


You and Arenas appear to be in the vast minority on that point.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBulls2315</b>!
> 
> arenas, are you plssed?


He's always plssed....Wait, were you asking him if he was pleased or pissed? Oh heck, he's both all the time.........J/K Arenas. You know it would be boring here if you didn't post.


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

I'm not sold on the Bobcats picking Livingston at 2. First off, Okafor might be available at 2. Secondly, if the Clippers were so high on Livingston, why would they trade him away for a 2nd round pick and having a contract taken off their books. Of course they still get Gordan. But if Livingston was really their guy, this isn't worth it. A 6'8 PG is not something you can get next year. 

You can easily look at it and say the the Clippers want Livingston and that they did this deal b/c they have assurances Bickerstaff will pick the leftover of Okafor/Howard and they can get their guy anyway at a cheaper rate and get rid of Drobnjak.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kramer</b>!
> 
> You and Arenas appear to be in the vast minority on that point.


Being in the minority doesn't always mean you are wrong either. Just ask the Indians.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

I dont like all the moving around, but I dont care as much about the Clippers as I do about the Bulls (even though Clips are one of my 3 favorite teams) and I do think the Clips will get Livingston so its not a big deal. I just hope the Bulls walk away with Deng or Iggy(or an established player via trade). That is what I expect, if Paxson ends up picking Gordon or Howard or anyone who plays any position but the wing, I would be extremely dissappointed.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kramer</b>!
> 
> You and Arenas appear to be in the vast minority on that point.


I have never cared what the majority believes anyway. I go by what I see. I see Livingston as being a better pro than either one of Howard or Okafor.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kramer</b>!
> 
> You and Arenas appear to be in the vast minority on that point.


In that case.....

Well, I won't say...

We'll see Thursday.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Why would they? The Clippers could have expressed interest in moving down for money reasons.
> ...


I'd like to think the Clippers would be a little more careful than that being that they already started off in the power position at #2.

If Bernie is smokescreening, more power to him, but I have a quote and an article that make it look like he wants one of the bigs.

So again, what makes you so sure this is going to go down this way? Why wouldn't they take Okafor or Howard. I realize anything can happen.

So how would the draft shake down if it does go down?

1. Orlando - Okafor
2. Charlotte - Livingston
3. Atlanta - Howard
4. Clippers - Gordon
5. Wizards - Deng
6. Bulls - Iguodala

Bulls get the #17 or Diaw from Atlanta.

Something like that?


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## Kramer (Jul 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Being in the minority doesn't always mean you are wrong either. Just ask the Indians.


The Indians are actually big fans of Livingston as well. The odds at the Ho Chunk casino have him listed as the 2-1 favorite to be drafted by Charlotte at the 2nd pick.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> I have never cared what the majority believes anyway. I go by what I see. I see Livingston as being a better pro than either one of Howard or Okafor.


That's fine, but it's clear not all gm's agree with you, although I'm sure some do. My question remains, how are you sure this is what Bernie wants to do?


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Being in the minority doesn't always mean you are wrong either. Just ask the Indians.











:thinking: 

Hmmm. Should I really make the phone call the Cleveland and find out...?


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## Kramer (Jul 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> In that case.....
> ...


I honestly hope you're right. I'd love for Okafor or Howard to fall to us to increase our pick's trade value.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kramer</b>!
> 
> The Indians are actually big fans of Livingston as well. The odds at the Ho Chunk casino have him listed as the 2-1 favorite to be drafted by Charlotte at the 2nd pick.


:laugh:


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

All I can say is that I don't see how this helps the Bulls at all :|

It looks to me like we probably just good rooked.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> All I can say is that I don't see how this helps the Bulls at all :|
> 
> It looks to me like we probably just good rooked.


Well, it helps us if Okafor gets picked first, Livingston picks second, and our goal is to trade #3 (Howard) to Atlanta for #6 and either #17 or Diaw.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kramer</b>!
> 
> The Indians are actually big fans of Livingston as well. The odds at the Ho Chunk casino have him listed as the 2-1 favorite to be drafted by Charlotte at the 2nd pick.


Damn Kramer is definitely bringing his A game today  you hurt PCLoad's feelings and now you're busting on Ho Chunk nation. Good times. :laugh:


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

Charlotte will take Deng. This means that Dwight Howard will be there for us. Or Emeka.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> All I can say is that I don't see how this helps the Bulls at all :|


Assuming it's Howard at #2, it simplifies things big time at the top of the draft . That's probably good.


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, it helps us if Okafor gets picked first, Livingston picks second, and our goal is to trade #3 (Howard) to Atlanta for #6 and either #17 or Diaw.


Exactly. If that's the case..

1. Okafor
2. Livingston
3. Atlanta-Howard
4. Gordan
5. Deng
6. Iguodala

We get one of our guys at a cheaper price and get 17.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> So how would the draft shake down if it does go down?
> 
> ...


Precisely.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

Hmmm.......
Now I am getting skeptical. I believe the Clippers man right now is Livingston and at #4 they could probably see him or Gordon but now the Bobcats may want Livingston. So the Bobcats could end up with Livingston and the Bulls can end up with Howard. Leaving the Clippers with Gordon who is also a favorite of the Clippers. So many possibilities but there will be one result....


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> Charlotte will take Deng. This means that Dwight Howard will be there for us. Or Emeka.


Hmmm. That's out of left field. Other than the fact that Deng went to school in-state, what makes you so confident?


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## Kramer (Jul 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Damn Kramer is definitely bringing his A game today  you hurt PCLoad's feelings and now you're busting on Ho Chunk nation. Good times. :laugh:


I'm just getting ready for the draft party Thursday!
:starwars: :rock: :rocket: :boxing: :sfight:


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Precisely.


Hey, I hope you're right. That makes me VERY happy. I just don't have the same confidense that's how things are going to shake down.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> That's fine, but it's clear not all gm's agree with you, although I'm sure some do. My question remains, how are you sure this is what Bernie wants to do?


I said it from the beginning that Bernie wanted Livingston. When it was first announced that he wanted to go pro, because he can afford to build around a unique type of player for an expansion franchise. 

He then came out with some stupid moratorium on not taking HS players and now he trades up, because he knew if he didn't there is a good chance that Livingston would be taken by the Clippers. 

If he doesn't take him I will be surprised.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

I am willing to bet it doesn't go that way.

Howard and Okafor will go 1 and 2 or 2 and 1. Deng will go 3. Livingston will go 4. Iguodala or Childress will go 5. Josh Smith will go 6 and Gordon or Iguodala will go 7.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, it helps us if Okafor gets picked first, Livingston picks second, and our goal is to trade #3 (Howard) to Atlanta for #6 and either #17 or Diaw.


Yeah, but it looks pretty clear that the Clips wouldn't have traded down to #4 if they thought Livingston would go #2. If Howard goes at #2, which it looks like he will, our trade down options seem to go out the window.

Maybe I spoke too soon, but that's the way it looks to me. Of course, maybe we spooked Charlotte into trading up for Ben Gordon, you never know 

1- Okafor
2- Gordon
3- Howard (to Atlanta)
4- Livingston 
5- Deng
6- Iggy (to Bulls)

I'd bust a nut if that happens


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> I said it from the beginning that Bernie wanted Livingston. When it was first announced that he wanted to go pro, because he can afford to build around a unique type of player for an expansion franchise.


There were several articles about the Bobcats building around a big guy first.

They could have gotten Livingston at #4 anyway.

The Clippers would have never taken Livingston at #2 as Howard and Okafor by far have the most value in this draft.

Most likely Atlanta would have traded up with the Clippers in that case and taken Howard or Okafor at #2.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd like to think the Clippers would be a little more careful than that being that they already started off in the power position at #2.
> ...


Good senario for us , we get Iggy and another talent - accumulating...


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

OK, let's say that it is still:

1 - Okafor
2 - Howard (or Visa versa)
3 - 
4 - Livingston/Gordon
5 - 


If this is how it is we need to get a deal done with Washington.

I'd be open to a stackhouse and #5 for #3 and JYD

Or 

Hayes and #5 for #3, Jeffries and #39.

If this is the way it goes, and it looks very possible, you can get Iggy or Deng at 5 and picking up another starter would make this a succesful draft.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, but it looks pretty clear that the Clips wouldn't have traded down to #4 if they thought Livingston would go #2. If Howard goes at #2, which it looks like he will, our trade down options seem to go out the window.
> ...


I would too! :yes:


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

By the way, guys, this also means that if Orlando takes Howard and Charlotte takes Livingston, we take Okafor at #3.

Does anybody else think Paxson wouldn't do it?


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBulls2315</b>!
> Exactly. If that's the case..
> 
> 1. Okafor
> ...


ahh, see. This is where bad things can happen. What if Deng goes 4, and Iggy goes 5. We've basically just walked away from the draft without getting one of the two guys we wanted, and we had the 3rd pick (and the two guys we wanted go 4 and 5). 

Take Deng or Iggy at three and walk away.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Deng and Iguodala will go 1 and 2 in the draft. 

Book it.
Take it to the bank.
Write it in stone with your own blood.
Call your neighbors late at night and scream it loud and proud.

While I have no evidence in the matter, history tells us that the player(s) we target are always off the board by our pick. Hitherto, such a scenario hasn't happened yet but deep down... deep down.. you know it will. 

:wiz: :verysad:


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> 
> 
> There were several articles about the Bobcats building around a big guy first.
> ...


I think you have a good point. Thats how I believed it would have occurred.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, but it looks pretty clear that the Clips wouldn't have traded down to #4 if they thought Livingston would go #2. If Howard goes at #2, which it looks like he will, our trade down options seem to go out the window.
> ...


If we did spook them on Gordon , and we get 6 and 17th for that - that would be a nice job by Pax.


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> ahh, see. This is where bad things can happen. What if Deng goes 4, and Iggy goes 5. We've basically just walked away from the draft without getting one of the two guys we wanted, and we had the 3rd pick (and the two guys we wanted go 4 and 5).
> ...



Don't worry about it. This is one scenario we don't have to worry about not getting one of those guys. LA will come out of this draft with a PG. They haven't even worked Deng out. He won't go to LA at 4.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> By the way, guys, this also means that if Orlando takes Howard and Charlotte takes Livingston, we take Okafor at #3.
> 
> Does anybody else think Paxson wouldn't do it?


He'd do it and I believe that will change the hole story - cause I think he'll keep him (not trade for 6 and 17th).

BTW - if we get Emeka I think we can do even better than Hawks offer.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> ahh, see. This is where bad things can happen. What if Deng goes 4, and Iggy goes 5. We've basically just walked away from the draft without getting one of the two guys we wanted, and we had the 3rd pick (and the two guys we wanted go 4 and 5).
> ...


personally I'd be a happy fan if we take Snyder/Jackson at 6th.

I think Snyder is this drafts Pietrus with more offensive skills.
He's intense enough to be one of the top defenders in the league (without even mentioning his athletic ability)


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> 
> 
> There were several articles about the Bobcats building around a big guy first.


If you're going to base your argument off articles well....so be it.

I'm not believing anything a article says unless its direct quotes.

Go find Bernie's direct quotes, then tell me he's not taking Livingston.

He can't even get Howard in for a workout and he's taking Howard?

Come on.

He'll sell seats to Duke fans who planned on watching him at Cameron, and he'll seats to UNC fans who want to egg on the Dukies about how their guy is playing in the NBA instead of their school.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> If you're going to base your argument off articles well....so be it.
> ...


Did you read the direct quote of Bernie I posted above stating why Okafor and Howard separate themselves from the rest of this draft class? Sure, it could be misdirection, but I do have one and it's posted in the thread already.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Ben Gordon has cancelled his workout in Phoenix against Harris. He worked out for them in a group workout in New York before I think.

Still interessting. I wouldn't be surprised if he got a promise from the Clippers at #4.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bullet</b>!
> 
> 
> If we did spook them on Gordon , and we get 6 and 17th for that - that would be a nice job by Pax.


Yes it certainly would.

I'm going with the more conventional scenario for now, however 

I do think a trade with the Wiz is a possibility if Okafor and Howard go 1/2, but I don't think it's a super-strong one.

Honestly, if *I* were running the Wiz, I'd take Iggy just as sure as I'd take Deng. Iggy makes more sense for them in several ways... as a better ball handler, he'll take pressure off Arenas. He's no worse a defender than Deng, for sure, and maybe better. And while neither will demand shots, having Iggy as the unselfish distributor and fast break guy would make perfect sense for them.

Truth be told, I think Iggy is a slightly better fit there and Deng, who I think will bring more offense, is a better fit here. He won't be the ball handler that Iggy is, or quite the speedster, but he's a true three and can score.

You could almost, based on that, see this trade working the opposite way from how most expect... Washington could give something up to ensure they get Iggy, not Deng. But as a part time Wiz fan, I wouldn't give anything up because I think either guy helps the Wiz. Of course, I'm not Abe Pollin either.

If I did anything, it might be to offer Stack for JYD, ERob, or Pippen. Stack is the guy they want the least, because of money issues, and he's got the biggest question-marks, because of his injuries.

Stack for JYD makes some sense for both teams. The Wiz could use a hard nosed player like JYD and the Bulls could use a scorer like Stack.

That being said, it's still a gamble for the Bulls. While JYD is overpaid, he at least gets on the court. If Stack doesn't, it's even worse because he's owed $22.5M while JYD (including the trade kicker that doesn't show up in Hoopshype) is owed about $20M over the next 3 years.

They might agree to an ERob/Stack swap, but by comparison, ERob only has $2 years at $14M. Given the questions regarding Stack's knee (while I personally think he'll be healthy, there's no way to know), that seems like a pretty big gamble. The Wiz, I bet, would trade Stack for ERob straight up. They save money no matter what, and in a fast breaking offense ERob could be freakish.

If they were to work a deal, I think the fairest thing they could do is for the Bulls to send #3, ERob, and JYD to the Wiz for #5, Stack and Laettner. This amounts to the Bulls sending out soemthing like $34M in remaining salary and taking back $29M. The Bulls would include a $3M cash payment to offset this difference, thus making the real salary difference in the trade only about $2M.

The Wiz get two guys who actually make some sense for them in terms of how they play, and they get the guy they want in the draft.

The Bulls get the guy they want, moderate cap relief, and exchange a gamble on Stackhouse for a player they definitely don't want in ERob.

Wiz
1- Arenas, Blake
2- Hughes, Dixon
3- Deng, ERob
4- Kwame, JYD
5- Haywood, Thomas

Bulls
1- Hinrich, (Crawford)
2- Crawford, (Stackhouse)
3- Stackhouse, Iggy
4- Chandler, Davis
5- Curry, (Chandler)


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

From the way the owner talks, it sounds like Okafur is the kind of 'person' they want, if not the kind of basketball player...

The articles title is:

*First Item for the Bobcats: Win Over the Community*



> "I decided to do this because it's something I wanted to do personally, something I wanted to do emotionally. I wanted to create an institution that was associated with winning. What we have in Charlotte is an opportunity to create a winning tradition if we execute right and focus on quality athletes who have a strong work ethic, a strong commitment to performance every time they're on the court and the right kind of attitude off the court.''
> --
> "The issue is the N.B.A. needs stars, irrespective of their color,'' Johnson said. "And I don't mean guys throwing up 30 points a game. I'm talking about guys who understand what the N.B.A. is all about in terms of management and players working together to keep a fabulous sports institution working for the mutual interest of fans, owners, players, sponsors.


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/21/s...00&en=90240126bba28ff1&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> "In Cleveland, the No. 1 question when you meet someone is 'Where do you work?' or 'Where do you live, East Side or West Side?' " Witte said. "But in Charlotte, one of the very first questions is, 'Where do you go to church?' "
> 
> Religion and morals are so much a part of everyday life that the Hornets were the only team in the NBA to offer an invocation before each game.
> --
> ...


http://www.cleveland.com/sports/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1087810319202871.xml


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Community outreach, therefore, became a central part of the Bobcats' mission.
> 
> The team hired Charlotte native LaRita Barber, who had experience at Queens University of Charlotte, UNC Charlotte and the Charlotte Chamber, and made her vice president of community relations. Few NBA teams have a community relations director at a level as high as vice president.
> 
> ...


http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/sports/basketball/8970698.htm


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

http://www.nba.com/clippers/news/draft_trade_040621.html

The Los Angeles Clippers today acquired the fourth and 33rd overall picks in the 2004 NBA Draft from the Charlotte Bobcats in exchange for the second overall selection in the draft. In addition, Charlotte has agreed to select Clippers’ center Predrag Drobnjak in Tuesday’s expansion draft. 

In making the announcement, Clippers’ Vice President of Basketball Operations Elgin Baylor said, “This trade achieves a two-fold objective: First, we know we will get the player we want with the fourth pick, and second, it improves our salary cap flexibility with regard to potential free agent developments.”




1 of 2 things. The Clippers guy is Gordan. Or like I said before, LA has assurances that Charlotte will pick the leftover of Okafor/Howard leaving them with Livingston barring something happening with the Bulls.


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## bUlls2322 (Jul 15, 2002)

has anybody considered that the magic could pick livingston? i mean i personally could see it, i mean the magic have a pretty big hole in the pg position, im just going out on a limb here, but if im wrong about the livingston thing i say they will pick howard


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

Thanks ChiBulls2315 for the link, looks like the deal is done.


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## Charlotte_______ (May 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bUlls2322</b>!
> has anybody considered that the magic could pick livingston? i mean i personally could see it, i mean the magic have a pretty big hole in the pg position, im just going out on a limb here, but if im wrong about the livingston thing i say they will pick howard


If so they will likely draft the best player available at #1 either Okafor or Howard and wait until Livingston is picked and trade picks and hopefully the Magic get somethng else in return. I think the Magic will choose Okafor plainly on his defense. I mean they lost Ben Wallace, you think they would pass up Okafor's defensive ability?


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

IMO this trade is the best thing that happens to the Bulls. KC Johnson said himself that the Bulls pie in the sky dream scenario is to somehow get Atlanta to trade the 6th and 17th to Chicago for the 3 and a salary (most likely Pippen). If you look at how this unfolds:

Orlando -- Emeka Okafor
Charlotte -- Luol Deng 
Chicago -- Dwight Howard traded to Atlanta
LA Clippers -- Shaun Livingston
Washington -- Ben Gordon
Chicago -- Andre Iguodala

We still get our guy, and at 17th we can further strengthen our frontcourt by taking Araujo, Swift or Ramos. 

But what's important here, however it swings....is that if LAC does this trade.....they are no longer there for Atlanta to deal with. Charlotte is zeroed in on Deng. And if Charlotte takes Livingston, like so many of you believe.......we STILL take Howard, still do the trade, LAC takes Devin Harris, Washington takes Deng and we get Iguodala


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> IMO this trade is the best thing that happens to the Bulls. KC Johnson said himself that the Bulls pie in the sky dream scenario is to somehow get Atlanta to trade the 6th and 17th to Chicago for the 3 and a salary (most likely Pippen). If you look at how this unfolds:
> 
> Orlando -- Emeka Okafor
> ...


Why in god's name would Washington take Gordon when they have the closest thing to his clone, Gilbert Arenas?


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## realbullsfaninLA (Jan 8, 2003)

This L.A. station (xtra sports 690) is reporting that the Clips will take Livingston with their pick.


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## Robert23 (Dec 3, 2003)

There is no way Charlotte passes on Dwight Howard. I want Luol Deng but I wouldn't pass on Howard. Unless Luol Deng has done something in workouts to prove he his better than Howard that I didn't hear about this dream scenario won't happen. The Duke Chalotte connection isn't enough to get him Drafted over Howard. Plus they could swap picks with the Bulls to cement their chance of getting Luol Deng cheaper than what it will take to trade with the Clippers. It wouldn't make sense for them to trade up to #2 and then pass on Howard.


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## WXHOOPS (Jan 15, 2004)

#1 Emeka Okafor
#2 Dwight Howard
#3 Luol Deng
#4 Shaun Livingston
#5 Josh Childress
#6 Andre Igoudala

Charlotte no doubt traded up to get Howard or Okafor. No way they start their team with a PG. Start it with a big and build around him.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Let's do a little extrapolation here, all assuming that Livingston is the Clips' "guy":

- Why would the Clips agree to this trade if the Bobcats were going to select Livingston?
- Elgin Baylor said he is sure his player will be available at #4. Well, there have been Gordon to the Bulls rumors in the last few days, so how could he be sure of that? Livingston must be his guy.

Charlotte must have made their intentions clear to draft either Okafor or Howard. Otherwise, this just doesn't make sense.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

I have no doubt that Charlotte is going to draft either Okafor or Howard. Why else do the Clips do this deal? ATL was offering the 6, 17, plus a salary dump yet they will give up "their guy" in Livingston for a freaking second rounder? The Bobcats are taking a big while Livingston will slip to the 4th. The ATL trade would have meant missing out on Livingston, but Gordon would have been there.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

Because with Charlotte when LAC dumps Drobniak they don't have to take anything in return......so they may have just put themselves into the Kobe sweeps. The Clippers payroll before draft and not counting FAs Dooling and Maggette = 29 million dollars. Say the cap goes to 44......that's 15 million to offer Kobe.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Why in god's name would Washington take Gordon when they have the closest thing to his clone, Gilbert Arenas?


Like a Wizards poster said last week......they have someone decent at every position......so anyone they pick is gonna have someone at their position already.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> Let's do a little extrapolation here, all assuming that Livingston is the Clips' "guy":
> 
> - Why would the Clips agree to this trade if the Bobcats were going to select Livingston?
> ...


Did Rip Van Baylor wake up? lol


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>sp00k</b>!
> I have no doubt that Charlotte is going to draft either Okafor or Howard. Why else do the Clips do this deal? ATL was offering the 6, 17, plus a salary dump yet they will give up "their guy" in Livingston for a freaking second rounder? The Bobcats are taking a big while Livingston will slip to the 4th. The ATL trade would have meant missing out on Livingston, but Gordon would have been there.


If you're sitting at 6 you don't get Gordon or Livingston...

What do we get at 17?

Nothing special.

Cap relief?

Great, we got that from Charlotte, and the chance to get our guy at 4, and we can get Minard at 33.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlo...hotmail.com&KRD_RM=4roloprsmtrkoqnkkkkkkkklsl|Jeff|N

"We would be pleased starting our basketball team with either one of those young men," Bobcats coach and general manager Bernie Bickerstaff said. "They represent what we would like to become in terms of character, competitiveness and talent."


Is this yet another ruse, or does Bernie just want Okafor or Howard?


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Charlotte is not taking Howard. Bridge has been burned there IMO. People who think the Clippers wanted Livingston must remmeber that Dunleavy wants to win now, they also want to present the best face for Kobe to win now. That is why I think the Clippers had targeted Ben Gordon and did not want to be _forced_ to take Livingston at #2.

Charlotte wants to start with a big man and if Okafor is at #2 they will take him. However, if Okafor goes number 1 then Charlotte will select Shaun Livingston and the Bulls will select Deng. I think Washington will then take Howard and trade him and a contract to Atlanta( maybe Howard/Stackhouse for #6/#17) which will give Atlanta a decent core to start rebuilding with. Iggy then goes #6.

how is that for wild speculation.......


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> Let's do a little extrapolation here, all assuming that Livingston is the Clips' "guy":
> 
> - Why would the Clips agree to this trade if the Bobcats were going to select Livingston?
> ...


They would do this cause maybe their guy is actually 2 guys.

Don't get Livingston , they get Gordon , one of them will be there for sure.

and as MemphisX said , they need relief and "Kobe inviorment"


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> If you're sitting at 6 you don't get Gordon or Livingston...
> ...


U might get one of them.

and at 17th u can get lots of good things.Humphries might slip,Dorell,JR,Swift - one of those HS's can turn out big


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> Charlotte is not taking Howard. Bridge has been burned there IMO. People who think the Clippers wanted Livingston must remmeber that Dunleavy wants to win now, they also want to present the best face for Kobe to win now. That is why I think the Clippers had targeted Ben Gordon and did not want to be _forced_ to take Livingston at #2.
> 
> Charlotte wants to start with a big man and if Okafor is at #2 they will take him. However, if Okafor goes number 1 then Charlotte will select Shaun Livingston and the Bulls will select Deng. I think Washington will then take Howard and trade him and a contract to Atlanta( maybe Howard/Stackhouse for #6/#17) which will give Atlanta a decent core to start rebuilding with. Iggy then goes #6.
> ...


So many Bulls fans willing to dream up anything to get Deng. If Okafor is gone then Deng is a Bobcat.....you don't start your franchise with a 175 lb high schooler. Ok so he can pass like Magic. Theres nobody for him to pass to next year or the year after lol.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> So many Bulls fans willing to dream up anything to get Deng.


I am a Bulls fan?:headbang:


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

My prediction : Bulls Draft Party is gonna be FUN.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> If you're sitting at 6 you don't get Gordon or Livingston...
> ...


Suppose the Clips did the trade down with ATL. Draft shapes up as follows:

Orlando - Okafor
ATL - Howard
Chicago - Deng
Bobcats - Livingston*
Washington - Iggy
Clippers - Gordon*

And that's assuming that Livingston is Charlotte's "guy", which I'm not completely sold on. A trade down with Atlanta would have enabled the Clippers to still grab Gordon while accumulating another draft pick and dumping off a salary to the Hawks. What have they gained now with this Bobcats deal? A freaking 2nd rounder and a salary dump. 

6th + 17th > 4th + 2nd rounder

The Clippers did this deal because now they can dump a salary, grab Livingston, and pay him at a lower rate. 

And given all the lovemaking that Paxson has been making in the media about Gordon, the Clips aren't going to trade down from the 2nd unless they're positive that a PG is available. This translates to the Clips <B>KNOW</B> that the Bobcats are taking a big man.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Why are we all coming up with thousands of probabilites for this draft, I think it's fairly simple...

1)Magic - Okafor
2)Bobcats - Howard
3)Bulls - Deng or Iggy
4)Clips - Livingston
5)Wiz - Deng or Iggy
6)Hawks - Smith or Childress
7)Suns - Gordon or Harris
8)Raps - Gordon or Harris
9)Sixers - Smith or Childress


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>T.Shock</b>!
> Why are we all coming up with thousands of probabilites for this draft, I think it's fairly simple...
> 
> 1)Magic - Okafor
> ...


T. Shock, I agree with that. Unless Orlando shocks and grabs Howard and Charlotte skips Okafor..........


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

I still think Charlotte would take Okafor, but I see what ur saying. The thing that messes up this draft if everybody goes maverick on us and it ends up like

1)Magic - Howard
2)Charlotte - Livingston
3)Chicago - Okafor
4)Clippers - Deng or Gordon
5)Wiz - Deng or Iggy

And so forth I think...


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

We'll have a good idea when the expansion draft is over tommorow right?


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

Doesn't the Bobcats/Clippers trade hurt the Suns chances of clearing enough cap space to enter the Bryant sweeps? Hmmm...maybe the Bulls could lend them a hand.


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## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

Charlotte will make a business decision _and_ a basketball decision and take Luol Deng at #2 

Being Charlotte they definately take an ACC stud 

They're getting Melvin Ely and Peja Dropdick most likely and will take Lorenzen Wright and Marcus Fizer to round out their front court 

Look for Gerald Wallace to be a Clipper ..


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> Doesn't the Bobcats/Clippers trade hurt the Suns chances of clearing enough cap space to enter the Bryant sweeps? Hmmm...maybe the Bulls could lend them a hand.


It's rumored that there is a deal in place where Jahidi will be taken tomorrow night and the Suns will send them a future first. Guess we'll know for sure in ~20 hours.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Sporting News Radio just reported that some of the cap filler--Reese Gaines--is being held hostage by Charlotte.

If the Magic give assurances that they'll skip on picking Okafur...Charlotte will leave him unpicked.

Without the assurances...they will select him.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> Doesn't the Bobcats/Clippers trade hurt the Suns chances of clearing enough cap space to enter the Bryant sweeps? Hmmm...maybe the Bulls could lend them a hand.


This is key. Why would the Clippers want to offload a contract (and also commit less money to a #4 pick as opposed to a #2)?

Clippers total savings: ~$3 million. 
Clippers approximate committed salary next year: about $29 million in 8 players.
Clippers cap space this summer: $13-15 million

Kobe Bryant's max deal begins at around: $13.5 million.

Hmmmmmmm.

Other teams with enough money to go after Kobe:

Atlanta
Utah
Denver

Phoenix is about $4 million short to have that kind of flexibility. A big trade like Shawn Marion + Jahidi White for Tyson Chandler + Eddie Robinson + 2005 1st rounder (top 5 protected) would save them the kind of cash that they need to save. 

Bulls offload a nasty contract (ERob), get a fairly young top 3 SF in the league (for me it's between Peja, Matrix and Artest) that's a terrific defender and overall player, and an expiring contract that can be a serviceable backup big guy. We also make room for Dwight Howard, who might be available at #3.

Hinrich
Crawford
Marion
Howard
Curry

That's just sick.

Second unit: Pargo/2nd rounder/JYD/AD/White. Very decent bench if healthy.

And while Phoenix looks like they are getting robbed of their very best player, they've been known to trade their best player to create cap space in the very recent past. Chandler's nothing to sneeze at, either, and a first rounder from the Bulls in the future could prove to be very valuable.

In the meantime, their lineup looks like this:

Barbosa
KOBE BRYANT
Joe Johnson
Amare Stoudemire
Tyson Chandler

Wait, that's really sick too. Zarko, Casey, Eisley, etc. off the bench.

Yeah, trading White for nothing would do the trick too, but... I dunno. I wonder what they'd say if the Bulls offered them this.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

That first rounder would have to be the #3 pick this year or at least swap #7 and #3 and Robinson's contract with Pippens.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Showtyme</b>!
> 
> 
> This is key. Why would the Clippers want to offload a contract (and also commit less money to a #4 pick as opposed to a #2)?
> ...



Great trade for us , I'd do it also with the swapping of the picks , and even with Pip instead of ERob.

Matrix is one of the best SF/players in the league , young , bit less than Max , worth his contract , good defender , good rebounder,missed only 8 games the last 4 seasons and can even hit the 3.

I'd go a long way to get a guy like him , he will give us ballance in the position we lack so much.

If I'm correct he's still BYC player , when does this expire??


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

I could have sworn someone told me the Clippers would not trade the pick.....


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> Doesn't the Bobcats/Clippers trade hurt the Suns chances of clearing enough cap space to enter the Bryant sweeps? Hmmm...maybe the Bulls could lend them a hand.


Don't the Suns clear enough cap space by trading a future lotto protected #1 to Charlotte so they take Jahidi White (and cut him) in the expansion draft?

Why do the Suns need to part with this year's pick as well? Maybe they don't like any of the players enough, that's the only reason I can see.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Don't the Suns clear enough cap space by trading a future lotto protected #1 to Charlotte so they take Jahidi White (and cut him) in the expansion draft?
> ...


One reason they'd do this is because the #1 this year will count against their cap. If they can swap it for next year's #1, they get another $2.5M or so in cap space for this summer's big Kobe sweepstakes.


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