# Re-Doing The 2003 Draft



## tiredchick (Oct 20, 2003)

While 2 years is too soon to really determine any draft busts from 2003, this class has already shown that it will likely turn how to be one of the better ones of recent history.

ESPN and SI have both recently done articles on how the draft would go, if it was held now. I didn't necessarily agree with either article, expecially ESPN's, which couldn't seem to agree of what criteria it wanted to consider most heavily in determining its list -- actual production, future upside, etc.

My list below is based mainly on the player's actual production over his first two NBA seasons and team's performance. I also considered injuries, team's depth and future upside, but the main criteria was the player's and team's actual performance.

1. LeBron James - 2003-04 ROY, 2004-05 All-Star, but zero postseason appearances
1a. Dwyane Wade - 1st team All-Rookie, 2004-05 All-Star, 2004-05 2nd team All-NBA Defensive team, 2 postseason appearances
3. Carmelo Anthony - 1st team All-Rookie, up-and-down 2nd season, 2 postseason appearances
4. Kirk Hinrich - 1st team All-Rookie, team tri-captain, received 3 votes for NBA Defensive POY, 1 postseason appearance, gets nod over Bosh mainly due to his strong playoff showing (21 PPG, 6 APG, 51% 3-pt%)
4a. Chris Bosh - 1st team All-Rookie, came on very strongly in latter part of sophomore season, zero postseason appearances
6. Josh Howard - 2nd team All-Rookie, cemented starting role as small forward in soph season, 2 postseason appearances
7. Luke Ridnour - struggled as rookie but became starting PG on division-winning Sonics in 2nd season, 1 postseason app.
8. Marquis Daniels - 2nd team All-Rookie as undrafted player, strong performance in playoffs as rookie, but injured much of 2004-05 and lost playing time, barely even getting off bench by end of year, 2 postseason app.
9. Mike Sweetney - Established self as Knicks' starting forward by midway point of soph season, needs to become less foul-prone, zero postseason app.
10. Kyle Korver - Went from 3-point specialist off the bench as a rookie to starting small forward in 2nd season, really struggled in playoffs, still needs to expand all-around game, 1 postseason app.
11. Mickael Pietrus - Has received inconsistent minutes off bench in first 2 seasons, but has proven to be excellent defender and occasionally dangerous offensive threat, zero postseason app.
12. Jarvis Hayes - 2nd team All-Rookie, part-time starter has struggled with his shooting and missed much of soph season with injuries, on IR for lone postseason

I thought about putting Wade ahead of James because of former's great postseason performances, but I also realize that because he's younger & bigger and can play 3 postions, more people would still probably take LeBron over Dwyane if were starting a team. Likewise, I thought of putting Bosh ahead of Hinrich since he's younger and is a big man, but kept Hinrich there because he hads been slightly more consistent over the 2 years and was the best player on the Bulls in the playoffs.


Honorable mention: T.J. Ford (was having very solid rookie season until injured; expected to be ready for 2005-06 training camp, no postseason app.), Nick Collison (missed entire rookie season after shoulder surgery but came on strong in latter part of 2004-05 and played very well in lone postseason), Marcus Banks (inconsistent back-up PG for Celtics who is excellent defender, 2 postseason app.), Mo Williams (languished on bench in Utah as rookie, but played quite well filling in for T.J. Ford as MIL's starting PG last year), Leandro Barbosa (has shown he isn't a PG, but still has contributed in spurts off of Phoenix's bench, 1 postseason app.)


Most disappointing so far: Darko Milicic (how much is this due to Brown's reluctance to play young guys?), Reese Gaines (barely hanging on in NBA), Troy Bell (out of NBA in 2004-05)


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## sipclip (Jan 21, 2005)

Figures you would not put Kaman but do have Sweetney who he is ten times better than.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

Kyle Korver at #10? Would you take Fred Hoiberg with the 10th pick in the draft?


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## DH12 (Jun 22, 2005)

Bosh is #3 at the very lowest.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

DH12 said:


> Bosh is #3 at the very lowest.


Agreed. Melo is trash.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

DH12 said:


> Bosh is #3 at the very lowest.


At the lowest?

3 at the highest would be much better. People are seriously underrating Carmelo anthony now.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

DH12 said:


> Bosh is #3 at the very lowest.



Lowest?
You have an arguement as to why he should be higher than 3?

I'd love to hear it.


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## FSH (Aug 3, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Lowest?
> You have an arguement as to why he should be higher than 3?
> 
> I'd love to hear it.



Yes i would like to hear this to...Because right now Melo > Bosh


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## sherwin (Mar 21, 2005)

Carmelo sucks, no way is he in the top 3 again


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## DH12 (Jun 22, 2005)

Well, by at the lowest I mean that there's no way redoing this draft right now any team would pass up on him to build around Melo, Hinrich or anyone else like that. I stand by 3 at the lowest, but also 3 at the highest. I don't think there's any argument to put him 1 or 2, but I also don't think there's anyway you put anyone besides LeBron or Wade ahead of him.


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## scooter (Oct 22, 2003)

Lebron is clearly #1 and would be in nearly every draft. 

#2 is a tough choice between Wade and Anthony. They're both fine players who find ways to win. Wade is more polished right now but he's also 2 1/2 years older. If he was a couple of inches taller he could be a Jordanesque superstar, but he's not. Anthony is much better than people give him credit for. He has a lot of toughness and all the skills and physical attributes you're looking for in a small forward. He only needs to improve his outside shooting and ballhandling a little bit to be a perennial allstar.

Bosh and Hinrich are #4 and #5, with order determined by team need. Bosh is always going to be a second tier power forward. He has neither the size nor the strength nor the athleticism of the top guys. And I question his competitiveness. He reminds me a lot of Abdur-Rahim, who came into the league with excellent skills and has always put up good numbers, but doesn't seem to play with the intensity of the big men who take their teams deep into the playoffs. Unless you really need a PF, I'd probably rather have Hinrich.


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## AirBonner (May 28, 2005)

scooter said:


> #2 is a tough choice between Wade and Anthony. They're both fine players who find ways to win. Wade is more polished right now but he's also 2 1/2 years older. If he was a couple of inches taller he could be a Jordanesque superstar, but he's not. Anthony is much better than people give him credit for. He has a lot of toughness and all the skills and physical attributes you're looking for in a small forward. He only needs to improve his outside shooting and ballhandling a little bit to be a perennial allstar.
> 
> Bosh and Hinrich are #4 and #5, with order determined by team need. Bosh is always going to be a second tier power forward. He has neither the size nor the strength nor the athleticism of the top guys. And I question his competitiveness. He reminds me a lot of Abdur-Rahim, who came into the league with excellent skills and has always put up good numbers, but doesn't seem to play with the intensity of the big men who take their teams deep into the playoffs. Unless you really need a PF, I'd probably rather have Hinrich.


There is no way that Carmelo is comparable to Wade. Wade dominated nba games all by himself without shaq in the lineup. He controlled the game in a way is out of Carmelo's abilities. The stats show the truth - Wade wins in almost every catagory and often by a significant margin.

*Wade...... Anthony* 
PPG 24.1........PPG 20.8 
RPG 5.2 .......RPG 5.7 
APG 6.8 .......APG 2.6 
SPG 1.57 ......SPG .91 
BPG 1.06 .......BPG .40 
FG% .478.......FG% .431 
FT% .762.......FT% .796 
3P% .289.......3P% .266 

As for Bosh and Hinrich, I would take Bosh. Your comments about his physical abilities are short sighted because at 20 yrs old Bosh has plenty of time to add bulk and strength. Even if he doesn't add that weight you have to consider KG, Gasol and other guys who have skinny builds and comparable athleticism but are very successful players in the L. I would even consider Bosh over Carmelo.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

Travis Outlaw.........remember him, he's gonna blow up this season.


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## Greater Levitator (Dec 29, 2004)

I'm really sorry for Darko...

Look at his situation. The 2nd Pick has been traded from Memphis to Detroit, so actually Memphis should have gotten this pick and not a team, that was going to win the Championship the upcoming season. Darko's situation is totally uncommon for a second pick. He was picked by a contender, not by some scrub team like Cleveland, Atlanta or New Orleans.

When it's all said and done Darko will be better than anyone in this draft not named James.


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## CrackerJack (Jul 2, 2005)

Troy Bell was an absolute shocker in the 03 draft a whole 6 games averaging 1.8pts high-scoring with 5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## DH12 (Jun 22, 2005)

MAS RipCity said:


> Travis Outlaw.........remember him, he's gonna blow up this season.


Of course he is...


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## Chaos (Feb 25, 2005)

MAS RipCity said:


> Travis Outlaw.........remember him, he's gonna blow up this season.


Fitting that a guy with the name Outlaw plays in Portland.


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## tiredchick (Oct 20, 2003)

I'm such an idiot -- I forgot all about Chris Kaman. I would put him in the 10-12 range in my rankings. He has been very inconsistent in both seasons, and last season was injured more than he was healthy. At times, he was coming off the bench behind Chris Wilcox, and he never seemed able to string more than a couple of strong games together in a row.

As for Outlaw, he is amazingly athletic and explosive, but since the Trail Blazers have yet to hire a coach, who can say what kind of role Outlaw will even have on the team next season? He hasn't gotten consistent minutes yet in his career -- until he does, it's hard to say how he will do. It's like Milicic in a way -- but without the pressure of having been so hyped up as a future superstar and ending up the #2 overall pick!


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

no matter the coach, Outlaw is gonna get major minutes as either a 6th man or potential starter......He's already better then stiffs like Kaman,Korver,etc.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

Chaos said:


> Fitting that a guy with the name Outlaw plays in Portland.


 You are the most original person I have ever seen on the net..... congratulations :clown:


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

tiredchick said:


> He hasn't gotten consistent minutes yet in his career -- until he does, it's hard to say how he will do. It's like Milicic in a way -- but without the pressure of having been so hyped up as a future superstar and ending up the #2 overall pick!


He actually got consistent big minutes the last month and a half and rarely dissapointed fwiw.His jumper is money.


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## scooter (Oct 22, 2003)

AirBonner said:


> There is no way that Carmelo is comparable to Wade. Wade dominated nba games all by himself without shaq in the lineup. He controlled the game in a way is out of Carmelo's abilities. The stats show the truth - Wade wins in almost every catagory and often by a significant margin.
> 
> *Wade...... Anthony*
> PPG 24.1........PPG 20.8
> ...


Wade is 2 1/2 years older, plays in a much weaker conference (absolutely terrible this past season after the suspensions in Indy), and has Shaq to draw double teams away from him. He's a fine player but at 23 1/2 is already entering his prime and is at best the fifth best player at SG (definitely behind Bryant, James, McGrady and Allen, and arguably not better than J. Johnson or Ginobili). He has an obvious weakness in that he's a below average shooter for a SG -- even his FT % is poor for a guard. And he was second in the league in turnovers (both total and per 48 minutes). So he's hardly a flawless player. A very good one, yes. The dominant superstar the media wants to make him out to be, no.

Anthony is also a very good player who is much younger and will probably continue to improve. Anthony draws a lot of double teams (and frequent games against defensive specialists like B. Bowen and T. Hassell) playing on a team where he is clearly the most talented all-around offensive player. Comparing his raw stats against Wade's, keep in mind that Wade played about 4 minutes more per game, which virtually extinquishes the difference in total number productivity. Anthony's shooting percentages remain a bit low, but he gets to the line a lot which makes up for it. Wade scores a lot of his points at the rim, but again the eastern conference has had a lot of teams with horrible inside defense the last couple of years (this should start to change unless the eastern teams continue to be stupid) making Wade look a little better than he really is.

The media annointed Wade as a superstar this past season but he really isn't. This past year he was a little better than Anthony, but only a little. Given the significant age difference, I still think its a close call.

I'm still not sold on Bosh. Still seems a lot like Rahim -- a quiet kinda guy with very good skills and numbers, but who never really seems to win. A little soft for an NBA big. A couple of inches shorter than guys like Gasol and Garnett. He's always going to be a poor man's Garnett, never the real thing.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

MAS RipCity said:


> no matter the coach, Outlaw is gonna get major minutes as either a 6th man or potential starter......He's already better then stiffs like Kaman,Korver,etc.



Korver is not a stiff. Just because you are a great shooter doesn't mean you are a stiff. Korver is so underrated.


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## AirBonner (May 28, 2005)

scooter said:


> Wade is 2 1/2 years older, plays in a much weaker conference (absolutely terrible this past season after the suspensions in Indy), and has Shaq to draw double teams away from him. He's a fine player but at 23 1/2 is already entering his prime and is at best the fifth best player at SG (definitely behind Bryant, James, McGrady and Allen, and arguably not better than J. Johnson or Ginobili). He has an obvious weakness in that he's a below average shooter for a SG -- even his FT % is poor for a guard. And he was second in the league in turnovers (both total and per 48 minutes). So he's hardly a flawless player. A very good one, yes. The dominant superstar the media wants to make him out to be, no.
> 
> Anthony is also a very good player who is much younger and will probably continue to improve. Anthony draws a lot of double teams (and frequent games against defensive specialists like B. Bowen and T. Hassell) playing on a team where he is clearly the most talented all-around offensive player. Comparing his raw stats against Wade's, keep in mind that Wade played about 4 minutes more per game, which virtually extinquishes the difference in total number productivity. Anthony's shooting percentages remain a bit low, but he gets to the line a lot which makes up for it. Wade scores a lot of his points at the rim, but again the eastern conference has had a lot of teams with horrible inside defense the last couple of years (this should start to change unless the eastern teams continue to be stupid) making Wade look a little better than he really is.
> 
> ...


Wade is a combo guard and it is misleading to simply label him a SG especially when he is averaging 7 assists per game so his versatility makes your comparisons flawed. If watched the games where Shaq didn't play you would also note that Wade's contribution went up not down. At the end of the season without Shaq and as the leading all-around offensive threat Wade's numbers would dwarf Anthony's. Outside the numbers ... Wade is a better leader and has stronger character than Anthony. I don't see the age difference as a determining factor, they both have mature bodies and mature skill sets. You have no idea what Wade's production would have been in the nba at 20yrs old and you have no idea if melo is going to progress any faster than wade from this point on.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Why is Jarvis Hayes ranked higher than Marcus Banks or Maurice Williams?


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

scooter said:


> Anthony is also a very good player who is much younger and will probably continue to improve. Anthony draws a lot of double teams (and frequent games against defensive specialists like B. Bowen and T. Hassell) playing on a team where he is clearly the most talented all-around offensive player. Comparing his raw stats against Wade's, keep in mind that Wade played about 4 minutes more per game, which virtually extinquishes the difference in total number productivity. Anthony's shooting percentages remain a bit low, but he gets to the line a lot which makes up for it. Wade scores a lot of his points at the rim, but again the eastern conference has had a lot of teams with horrible inside defense the last couple of years (this should start to change unless the eastern teams continue to be stupid) making Wade look a little better than he really is.


Before his injury Wade looked terrific against the best defensive team in the league in the Pistons who put the clamps down on Kobe when he had Shaq last year. So i don't buy the EC deal. Wade PPFGA (1.121) is higher then Anthony's (1.0510). Since PPFGA correctly takes into both FG and FT, Wade is more efficent then Anthony so I'm not sure how you can say Anthony makes up for his poor FG by getting to the line. Especially considering Wade's attacking style is made for getting to the FT line. Wade shot 200 MORE FT's then CA 

He was also just as effective with Shaq not on the floor. Wade is more then just a little better then Anthony. He is significantly better


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## jalen5 (Nov 19, 2004)

There is no debate b/tw LeBron and Wade. It's not 1 and 1a. Not to take anything away from Wade, but nobody would take him before LeBron James even if the draft was redone based on what we know now. I see the top 5 like this:

1. LeBron James -- would most likely be taken #1 in ANY draft over ANYBODY
2. Dwyane Wade -- has blossomed into a superstar.
3. Carmelo Anthony -- has faded into the background b/c of LeBron and Wade's performances. However, despite some setbacks, his talent and potential is too good to ignore and drop past 3. 
4. Chris Bosh -- Already a good player who has tremendous upside. Will be an all-star eventually.
5. Kirk Hinrich -- Has exceeded expectations and will continue to do as good as he done so far. I don't see him getting THAT much better than he is now, but hey, what he's doing right now is pretty good.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Chaos said:


> Fitting that a guy with the name Outlaw plays in Portland.


welcome to 4 years ago.


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## A_wildstabatanything (Jun 18, 2003)

scooter said:


> I'm still not sold on Bosh. Still seems a lot like Rahim -- a quiet kinda guy with very good skills and numbers, but who never really seems to win. A little soft for an NBA big. A couple of inches shorter than guys like Gasol and Garnett. He's always going to be a poor man's Garnett, never the real thing.



How many Raptors games have you seen in the last two years? None of their games have been broadcasted nationally and they only play the Nuggets twice a year. You've posted this in many Bosh threads so it'd be interesting to hear how you arrived at this conclusion. 

Lebron hasn't made the playoffs yet either... is he a loser too? Once management surrounds Chris with some talent they'll start winning. Until then players like Rose & Alston will continue to hog the ball and take shots away from him. 

In his rookie season he played Center for most of the year weighing in at around 220 pounds. A soft player would have given up or been injured.


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## girlygirl (Dec 6, 2003)

Premier asked: Quote - Why is Jarvis Hayes ranked higher than Marcus Banks or Maurice Williams?


Because Jarvis Hayes was a part-time starter for the Wizards in his 2nd season before getting injured and was their 6th man as a rookie. Williams barely played as a rookie, while Banks' playing time has been very up-and-down and he has yet to show he can be a full-time PG in the NBA. Delonte West, not Banks, is expected to be Boston's starting PG in 2005-06, which has to say something about Banks' development. Add in the fact that the Wizards were a better team than the Celts or the Bucks in 2004-05, and that's why.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

MAS RipCity said:


> no matter the coach, Outlaw is gonna get major minutes as either a 6th man or potential starter......He's already better then stiffs like Kaman,Korver,etc.


Outlaw didn't even know what the court looked like until March of last season.

Meanwhile, Korver's setting franchise three-point records.

Let's keep the homerism to a minimum please.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Here's how I rank them based on performance to-date. I understand some of them will be theoretically better down the road.

1. LeBron James
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Carmelo Anthony
4. Chris Bosh
5. Kirk Hinrich
6. Josh Howard
7. Luke Ridnour
8. Kyle Korver
9. Marquis Daniels
10. Chris Kaman
11. Mickael Pietrus
12. TJ Ford
13. Maurice Williams
14. Dahntay Jones
15. Mike Sweetney
16. Travis Outlaw

Everyone else...meh.


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## mysterio (May 20, 2003)

Top three of the 2003 draft:

1. LeBron
2a. Bosh
2b. Wade

It really is a toss up between Bosh and Wade, and if I had to make a bet, I'd bet Bosh has the better career when its all said and done. Consider Bosh is going to start his third season still a few months younger than Wade when he was a rookie out of Marquette and how Bosh has blown up since the all-star break. He just might turn out to be the 2nd best player of this draft.

As for Carmelo, you need your head checked if you think he's in the top three here. More experience is supposed to = better results. The sophomore slump tripe, there's no such thing. I challenge anyone to find me a player who has had a worse sophomore season playing on the same team as a rookie who dramatically improved thereafter.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

girlygirl said:


> Banks' playing time has been very up-and-down and he has yet to show he can be a full-time PG in the NBA.


Banks' _playing time_? Is that his fault? The blame falls soley on Doc Rivers, who started the inferior point guard, Gary Payton, over Banks. _Playing time?_



> Delonte West, not Banks, is expected to be Boston's starting PG in 2005-06, which has to say something about Banks' development.


Again, is this Banks' fault? His coaching staff would be to blame if he wasn't starter. _If _West does win the starting job, I won't change any opinion on him until he changes his playing styles and gets better in nearly every prominent basketball characteristic. I'll merely blame Doc Rivers for being dumb and Danny Ainge for overvauling West, which he has been doing ever since he drafted him.

Banks is better than West is almost every aspect of basketball.

West is the better shooter, I agree, but the misconception is that Banks is an _awful_ shooter. I would say he's just below average, but West isn't all too terrific either. West is the better shooter by a relatively "average" margin.

On to rebounding, statisitcs will tell that West is the better rebounder (but barely), but again, I've shown that point guards aren't necessarilly responsibly for defensive rebounds (or offensive, but again for the sake of argument). West grabbed 3.1% of possible offensive rebounding chances. Banks, 2.8%.

On to passing. Banks statistically rates ahead of West in every important passing category. One could explain this by his superior court vision.

Banks is .2% (_percent_) behind West in three-point shooting. West has better form, but statistics don't lie.

Free throws? Who cares about free throws? I won't even bother looking it up (West likely didn't attempt enough free throws to accurately judge this). I'll just take your word for it.

Steals. Banks is _easily_ superior.

Speed. Banks is _easily_ superior.

Handling. While it may be hard to believe (_I_ was suprised), but Banks is a far better ball handler than West. Adjusted to minutes, Banks commited 1.6 less bad passes than West. Banks does have much more ball handling turnovers, but 82games.com rates Banks as slightly better than West in the "hands" overall category.

Defense. Banks is _easily_ superior.

Offensively, West and Banks have different strengths and weaknesses. West is (slightly) a better shooter and has better mechanics and form (although he cannot shoot off the dribble, he's more of a wide open jump shooter), but he cannot penetrate at all. His first step is awful. Banks is actually very explosive and can blow by defenders of the dribble. West is less prone to make mistakes, but isn't as good of a dribbler or passer. Plus, his game speed is average, at best. Banks, on the other hand, is known to make a few mistakes but compensates for it by stealing the ball (steals cancel out turnovers). Banks is an average passer and dribbler, but he's fast.

In conclusion, Banks is ulitimately the better offensive player.

 The defensive aspect of the balls is what determines who is a better player. Banks is a _much_ better defensive player. It's not even worth comparing them, in my opinion.

Banks is the better player and _should_ be the starter.



> Add in the fact that the Wizards were a better team than the Celts or the Bucks in 2004-05, and that's why.


They finished with the same record even with the Celtics' tanking their last two regular season games. Boston was also 3-1 against Washington _and_ they didn't play even half of their season with Antoine Walker.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Dwyane Wade is a superstar in his second season in the league. He's already a top 10 player. Elite. Game-changer extraordinaire. And he could have a few rings within the next half decade.

Chris Bosh is a fine talent, but I doubt he comes close to sniffing top 10 status in the league at any time during his career. And I don't think Toronto's going to be securing any shiny hardware at any time in the near future.


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## sheefo13 (Jul 13, 2002)

Well if this was redoing the draft it would be different, teams would fills needs and draft potential or even draft a guy because he simply fits the system instead of taking the best overall. So ranking sounds a lot better to me. 

But anyways, I agree with what someone said earlier, Outlaw is going to blow this next season. He in my eyes will go ahead of Korver.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Don't let this guy










redo the 2003 draft. His draftnight analysis:

On Wade: "It's OK to like Wade, just not at No. 5 and not to Miami who had much more obvious needs than another off guard."

On Hinrich: "He's a taller Dan Dickau ... with worse hair."

On Josh Howard: "A guy I don't like, that Dick Vitale loves. Howard has ham-and-egger written all over him. Break time."

On Lampe: "Am I embarrassed that the guy I figured to go fifth (Lampe) is still on the board? Yes, that's a pretty fair statement."

On Reece Gaines: "Combo guard gives Orlando the most versatility in the League."

On Marcus Banks: "He's a Jamaal Tinsley clone."

On Nick Collison: "Limited ceiling who doesn't have the build to get by physically."

probasketball.about.com from 2003


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Carmelo Anthony and Chris Bosh are the same age. Each played the same amount of years in college. Experience? :raised_ey


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## Knowyourstuff (Mar 10, 2005)

scooter said:


> Wade is 2 1/2 years older, plays in a much weaker conference (absolutely terrible this past season after the suspensions in Indy), and has Shaq to draw double teams away from him. He's a fine player but at 23 1/2 is already entering his prime and is at best the fifth best player at SG (definitely behind Bryant, James, McGrady and Allen, and arguably not better than J. Johnson or Ginobili). He has an obvious weakness in that he's a below average shooter for a SG -- even his FT % is poor for a guard. And he was second in the league in turnovers (both total and per 48 minutes). So he's hardly a flawless player. A very good one, yes. The dominant superstar the media wants to make him out to be, no.
> 
> Anthony is also a very good player who is much younger and will probably continue to improve. Anthony draws a lot of double teams (and frequent games against defensive specialists like B. Bowen and T. Hassell) playing on a team where he is clearly the most talented all-around offensive player. Comparing his raw stats against Wade's, keep in mind that Wade played about 4 minutes more per game, which virtually extinquishes the difference in total number productivity. Anthony's shooting percentages remain a bit low, but he gets to the line a lot which makes up for it. Wade scores a lot of his points at the rim, but again the eastern conference has had a lot of teams with horrible inside defense the last couple of years (this should start to change unless the eastern teams continue to be stupid) making Wade look a little better than he really is.
> 
> ...


Where the ****** are you getting youre facts???Bill simmons left a very important fact out when writing that bull****** article...TORONTO'S 21 AND 6 WHEN BOSH SCORES 20 POINTS OR MORE....That right there shows how hes no second tier power forward...and whats the relation between he and abdur rahim...Bosh is a clutch performer...abdur rahim refuses the ball in the latter stages of a game....now if you're gonna criticise the 6'11 1/2 bosh...please do so with some validility....and the peopl who have hinrich rated higher then Bosh??<strike>WTF are you on???</strike>Bosh is clearly higher then Hinrich and frankly i think hes higher then melo aswell....And soon he'll make a case for being higher then Wade....That bill Simmons article has seemed to really taint alot of your views....And as for him being an allstar...He should have been one last year...and this year hes a lock for sure

*Knowyourmanners. And no masking.*


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## mysterio (May 20, 2003)

HKF said:


> Carmelo Anthony and Chris Bosh are the same age. Each played the same amount of years in college. Experience? :raised_ey


Eh? You must be referring to my post since I was the only one who mentioned the word experience (I think). I'm not quite sure what your point is though... but, comparing Carmelo to Bosh, Carmelo seems to have hit the wall, while Bosh still has a lot of upside and appears to still be physically maturing.


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## KeonBackinTO (May 26, 2003)

Everyone compares Bosh to SAR and KG at a young age. And everyone says that Bosh will become alot more like SAR rather then KG. People say that there is no way he can become as good as KG, but back when KG was young no one figured he would be as good as he is now. 
I'm not saying Bosh will become as good as the overrated KG but he is more likely to be closer to him then SAR. SAR is a soft tweener who doesn't work hard while Bosh is a true PF who works hard and is definatly not soft. 

In a do over Bosh would be picked over Melo and Hinrich, he is just as good as the two if not better and has worlds more of potential.


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## AirBonner (May 28, 2005)

I don't know how fair it is to compare Bosh's game with that of SAR or KG. Just because Bosh and KG look alike doesn't mean they have an identical game. KG is definitely a better shooter and imo is more inclined (on average) to shoot than he is to drive. Bosh does not have the same ability to shoot and although his shooting will likely improve i doubt he will ever be as good at it as KG. He on the other hand relies more on his ability to get in close to the basket whether he does it face up or back to the basket.

On defense i believe KG has more natural ability to stick/smother his man and force him to pass the ball off to a teammate (or get his shot blocked). Bosh i would argue is more likely to try and take a charge.

Will Bosh ever be as productive as KG, i doubt it but that doesn't mean he can't be an effective or even great franchise player.


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## Knowyourstuff (Mar 10, 2005)

Air bonner....Bosh is an extremely consistent mid range shooter...so to criticise his shooting is of no merit.....KG is a little better from outside....so i'd give him the slight advantage in teh shootign department...Bosh is definetly quicker then KG...KG's bout 1 inch and a half taller(7'1 with shoes)....Which makes him more effective in the post....Anyways,all this criticism of bosh is ridiculous....i have no doubt in my mind that he will become the Best PF in the EAST next season..


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## scooter (Oct 22, 2003)

Knowyourstuff said:


> Bosh is a clutch performer


What evidence of this do you have? How many big games has Bosh even played in (including college)? I'm not saying its his fault he plays on a crap team. But I am saying there is no evidence he's a big game, crunch time performer. And finesse oriented bigs have not exactly been dominating the NBA playoffs lately. The paint has become a brutal scrum in the playoffs, and I for one would not want my team built around a thin finesse type PF. Bosh is a very good player, but I just think he'll always be a second tier inside guy. Among young PFs, he's certainly no Amare, and I don't think he has Howard's long term potential either. I wouldn't take him over Okafor or Bogut either, if only because of their size. 

In considering whether Wade is really a superstar (a label I limit to the half dozen or so really dominant players in the league), I don't think you should overlook the relatively weak competition in the eastern conference. Consider the fact that Miami was 41-11 against the east and 18-12 against the west this past season. That's a rather shocking disparity. The last couple of years, the east has not only been lousy overall, but eastern teams have been especially inexperienced and defensively porous in the paint (with a couple of exceptions). I think that relative lack of paint defense in the eastern conference has really aided Wade, who takes the ball strong to the hole but is not a consistent shooter. Miami had a lineup which kept defenses very honest with Wade this past season -- Shaq plus very good 3 point shooters in Jones and Jones to spread the floor and keep defenses from double teaming him. I'm not saying he's not a very very fine player. I'm saying he's a guy who's situation has maximized his abilities and productivity so far. I'm not convinced he would look like a superstar on all teams and in all situations.


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## celtsb34 (Apr 22, 2005)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> Agreed. Melo is trash.


we'll he isn't trash but is dissapointing.


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## scooter (Oct 22, 2003)

celtsb34 said:


> we'll he isn't trash but is dissapointing.


How so? Carmelo played on sprained ankles (both of them) for roughly half this past season and still managed to have one of the dozen or so best seasons for a 20 year old. In the two years since he joined the team, the Nuggets went from 17 wins to 49 wins in the obviously tougher of the two conferences. He's the best overall player on the team, so he has obviously played an important role in that improvement. 

I am a Nuggets fan and recognize he's not a dominant superstar. I'd be the first to admit I don't think he's going to be a "superstar" because his athleticism is a notch below similar size guys like McGrady and James. But it seems dumb to me to jump on the "disappointment bandwagon" because he didn't play like Larry Bird and Magic Johnson rolled into one this past season. I'm a Nuggets season ticket holder who sees about 80% of their games. I'm telling you guys, he played at 75% due to injuries for a good part of the season. He got healthy during the last part of the season and the team went on a rampage (at the same time as his production and efficiency improved dramatically). And Carmelo plays on a team with a bunch of good players, so he doesn't dominate the ball and the stats. 

Anthony has developed an image that obviously causes some people to have some bias against him. But this image stuff is silly -- remember how many years Kobe Bryant had a squeeky clean image that people learned was 180 degrees from the real person and teammate. 

I have no doubt Anthony is in the top group of #3 picks. I don't see what's disappointing about that.


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## Knowyourstuff (Mar 10, 2005)

scooter said:


> What evidence of this do you have? How many big games has Bosh even played in (including college)? I'm not saying its his fault he plays on a crap team. But I am saying there is no evidence he's a big game, crunch time performer. And finesse oriented bigs have not exactly been dominating the NBA playoffs lately. The paint has become a brutal scrum in the playoffs, and I for one would not want my team built around a thin finesse type PF. Bosh is a very good player, but I just think he'll always be a second tier inside guy. Among young PFs, he's certainly no Amare, and I don't think he has Howard's long term potential either. I wouldn't take him over Okafor or Bogut either, if only because of their size.
> 
> In considering whether Wade is really a superstar (a label I limit to the half dozen or so really dominant players in the league), I don't think you should overlook the relatively weak competition in the eastern conference. Consider the fact that Miami was 41-11 against the east and 18-12 against the west this past season. That's a rather shocking disparity. The last couple of years, the east has not only been lousy overall, but eastern teams have been especially inexperienced and defensively porous in the paint (with a couple of exceptions). I think that relative lack of paint defense in the eastern conference has really aided Wade, who takes the ball strong to the hole but is not a consistent shooter. Miami had a lineup which kept defenses very honest with Wade this past season -- Shaq plus very good 3 point shooters in Jones and Jones to spread the floor and keep defenses from double teaming him. I'm not saying he's not a very very fine player. I'm saying he's a guy who's situation has maximized his abilities and productivity so far. I'm not convinced he would look like a superstar on all teams and in all situations.


pfftt...pure ignorance....Did you not take my little stat into account???Go by NBA.com if you'd like....Bosh was not the 1 option in toronto...jalen and rafer both shot more per game....and secondly,Toronto is 21 and 6 when Bosh scores more then 20 in a game...Next season....He will be the leader...and will sure as hell get more shots then 12 a game...

And you would take bogut and okafor over bosh??<strike>Are you that much of a ****in tool???</strike>Anytihng an ESPN analyst says you'll take in..wont ya???lol...<strike>pathetic</strike>...please critic some other player....one you know alteast something about

*Do not attack other posters.*


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

I would take Okafor over Bosh taking everything into account. let's try not to make this personal


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## Knowyourstuff (Mar 10, 2005)

kamego said:


> I would take Okafor over Bosh taking everything into account. let's try not to make this personal


please..good god..using some reason and logic...why would you take Okafor over Bosh????

Bosh averaged 17/9/2/1.5/1 off 47 FG% and shot 76% from the line...and Toronto was 21 and 6 when he scored over 20 a game...and averaged 20 and 10 after the VC trade

Okafor averaged 15/11/1/1.7/.85 off 44% FG and shot 60% from the line////Averaged less points and shot worst from the field and the line.....I openly admit hes a better defenceive player...but come on...bosh destroys him on offence...that alone gives him the edge over Okafor


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## mysterio (May 20, 2003)

VincentVega said:


> Chris Bosh is a fine talent, but I *doubt* he comes *close to sniffing* top 10 status in the league *at any time* during his career.


 He's barely 21 now (same age as Wade when he was playing in the Final Four) and is at least a top 25 talent in the NBA already... I'll take that bet.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

Bosh> Okafor and Bogut.


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## Knowyourstuff (Mar 10, 2005)

Rawse..lol..are you doing that to everyones posts or just mine??Im feeling singled out  ....btw,sorry about the offensive comments...we all at times get a bit annoyed with what we read.


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