# "magnesium deficiency and the ingestion of legal supplements"



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...s_curry,1,797148.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

*Doc: No need for DNA test
Cannom says request not routine; Curry fine with 1-year deal*

By Marlen Garcia
Tribune staff reporter

September 27, 2005

The cardiologist who in June gave Eddy Curry clearance to resume playing basketball said DNA tests requested by the Bulls are unwarranted because Curry's heart is structurally sound for an athlete of his size.

*In a telephone interview from his Los Angeles office, Dr. David Cannom said Monday he attributed the benign arrhythmia the 6-foot-11-inch center experienced March 30—that led to an array of tests and inconclusive findings—to a magnesium deficiency and the ingestion of legal supplements with high levels of caffeine.*

"There's a standard being applied that wouldn't be applied if he weren't a $60 million athlete," Cannom said of the Bulls' request for genetic testing. "This is beyond clinical routine care."

Curry declined to comment on specifics of his ongoing medical saga on the advice of his agent and lawyer. But he said he is satisfied with Cannom's diagnosis, especially since it was supported by two other California cardiologists in recent weeks and also was consistent with the opinion of Boston-based cardiologist Mark Estes, who examined Curry in April.

The only specialist who apparently doesn't agree is Barry Maron, considered one of the world's leading experts in hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. He recommended the genetic test with hopes of ruling out the condition, and the Bulls are adhering to his opinion.

"There's one guy who isn't sure," Curry said. "I can live with that because of what the other doctors say."

Bulls general manager John Paxson declined to comment. Last week he indicated the Bulls will compel Curry to submit to a genetic test during the team's physical exams Monday—assuming Curry accepts the team's one-year qualifying offer of $5.14 million.

"I'm definitely prepared to do that," Curry said of accepting the offer. "One year, $5 million isn't the worst thing."

Curry's lawyer, Alan Milstein, has said Curry again will refuse the DNA test and predicted the case will end up in arbitration. The NBA Players Association vowed Monday to back Curry.

Union spokesman Dan Wasserman said the association doesn't oppose a player voluntarily agreeing to DNA testing.

"But there is nothing in the collective bargaining agreement that allows a team to compel a player to undergo DNA testing," Wasserman said. "It's voluntary or it's not going to happen. And we'll back that up."

Cannom pointed out that genetic testing remains an imperfect science, with a high rate of false negative results.

"If there was a genetic test that could solve this thing once and for all, I might not disagree with it," he said.

He said Maron, based in Minneapolis, takes a very conservative view of patients' risk.

"I looked at family history and the benign arrhythmia," Cannom said of his diagnosis of Curry. "It all comes down to an interpretation of the echocardiogram and a more liberalist view. I don't think Eddy Curry is at a more serious risk than anyone else in the league."

A published report in April claimed Curry's family had a history of heart trouble, but Cannom said there is no known history of such problems.

Regarding the abnormalities on Curry's echocardiogram that raised concerns for Maron, Cannom said: "We did not see them. They were very minor."

Cannom and Maron agree on at least one point: Curry has an enlarged heart.

*"[Maron] is saying it's abnormally large for someone his size; we're saying it's acceptable given the patient's size," Cannom said.*

Cannom said Curry's incident is being linked inappropriately to the health problems of the late Reggie Lewis and Hank Gathers, both of whom had hypertrophic cardiomyopathy when they collapsed and died.


Aha! This is the first official confirmation that Eddy took supliments that I remember. When you hear the whole thing from Cannom's side, it sure make's it sound like Pax is off the deep end.










Make sure to click on the link and read the whole article, folks. There's a lot in here.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

:jawdrop:


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## remlover (Jan 22, 2004)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> Aha! This is the first official confirmation that Eddy took supliments that I remember. When you hear the whole thing from Cannom's side, it sure make's it sound like Pax is off the deep end.


"He said Maron, based in Minneapolis, takes a very *conservative* view of patients' risk."

"I looked at family history and the benign arrhythmia," Cannom said of his diagnosis of Curry. "It all comes down to an interpretation of the echocardiogram and a more *liberalist* view. I don't *THINK* Eddy Curry is at a more serious risk than anyone else in the league."

Call me crazy, but i rather side with the guy who is the world-renowned specialist Also, shouldn't a doctor take a conservative view on patient's risks? I don't know about you, but if there are questions about my health i hope my Doctor errors on the side of caution. 

Someone refresh my memory. After Maron didnt release Eddy, Eddy then went to Cannom for his release opinion? (i could be a cynic and say Eddy was doctor shopping for a clearence, but i dont think Cannom is a quack).

And for the people who will attack Paxson after reading this article. What do you have to say about the Insurance agency doctor's deciding not to cover Eddy? Are they involved in the conspiracy to lower Eddy's value as well???


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

remlover said:


> "He said Maron, based in Minneapolis, takes a very *conservative* view of patients' risk."
> 
> "I looked at family history and the benign arrhythmia," Cannom said of his diagnosis of Curry. "It all comes down to an interpretation of the echocardiogram and a more *liberalist* view. I don't *THINK* Eddy Curry is at a more serious risk than anyone else in the league."
> 
> ...


 BUT

If a negative test result occurs, that could quickly take away any chance of a big contract with guaranteed money/years.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I KNEW Eddy was taking caffeine supplements. You're right Darius Miles Davis, this is the first we've heard of it. I bet anything he was using Ephedrine and that's why he was so abnormally skinny. If true, then that's serious stuff IMO...multiple athletes have died from that, especially overweight ones. Technically it's a "legal" supplement last I checked, but now I have even more doubts about how "hard" Eddy worked last summer.

Very interesting stuff here...the DNA debate seemingly has grown into a Cannom vs. Maron celebrity death match. Time to hear Dr. Maron's side of the story now. It's all coming down to the doc's point-of-view.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

remlover said:


> "He said Maron, based in Minneapolis, takes a very *conservative* view of patients' risk."
> 
> "I looked at family history and the benign arrhythmia," Cannom said of his diagnosis of Curry. "It all comes down to an interpretation of the echocardiogram and a more *liberalist* view. I don't *THINK* Eddy Curry is at a more serious risk than anyone else in the league."


Remlover, this is how a docter would pollitely say another Dr has gone off the deep end. Cannom is also a world-class dr. and he would be far more libel than anyone if Curry dies. This is very strong stuff. 



> This is no [Reggie Lewis] or Hank Gathers, who had terribly diseased hearts when they died," Cannom said.
> 
> "Those mistakes have cost the field dearly and cost Eddy Curry dearly," Cannom said. "We would never let that happen today.


OK, Pax - I really don't think you should be bringing up Reggie Lewis at all. Certainly not unless you explain the differences in the case.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

> Very interesting stuff here...the DNA debate seemingly has grown into a Cannom vs. Maron celebrity death match. Time to hear Dr. Maron's side of the story now. It's all coming down to the doc's point-of-view.


Curry would have to give Dr. Maron permission to talk about the case - legally, the Bulls can only speak in generalities, too, without Curry's permission. 

Magnesium deficiency is rare.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

The doctor's report sounds good, huh. Curry sure thought so. Seems like Pax probably should have bought off on it, huh.

Well, didn't he....


June 23rd:

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/curry_050623.html



> “The Bulls have had the opportunity to review Dr. David Cannom’s report on Eddy Curry. His positive report is terrific news for Eddy," stated Bulls EVP-Basketball Operations John Paxson.
> "The next step is to schedule a face-to-face meeting between Eddy and Dr. Cannom. Our goal has not changed from day one and that is to ensure Eddy’s long term health as our number one priority.”


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## bulls (Jan 1, 2004)

i think its kinda funny that this info is coming out now and not a month or 2 ago.could it be that pax and or curry camp is tryin to releave some concerns of a S/N partner?


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Also in the article....



> "Whenever the beginning of the season is here for me, I'll be ready," Curry promised.
> 
> *Curry said he started playing full-court games about three weeks ago.*
> 
> "It got to the point where I needed to compete," he said. "I'm not worried about my heart at all. I'm worried about twisting an ankle or breaking a finger."


Great, great news for Curry!


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> Remlover, this is how a docter would pollitely say another Dr has gone off the deep end. Cannom is also a world-class dr. and he would be far more libel than anyone if Curry dies. This is very strong stuff.


I think people need to take a step back and understand the ramifications of a doctor coming out publicily about a patient that supposedly could die in a very public way. If there was even a sizable chance that Curry was in significant danger, no doctor would risk his entire practice on making a public statement like this when the ramifications would be career suicide.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> Also in the article....
> 
> 
> 
> Great, great news for Curry!


Yup. That little blurb about Curry playing full court ball for three weeks was what I found most interesting. Is it too much to ask for the Chicago Beat writers to report stuff like this, like, say, maybe three weeks ago???? So much of the recent debate around here recently has been around how much activity Curry has been approved to resume and what he's been up to. This little tidbit of info might have helped - just a tad. It's good to hear he's playing.

I must say, with this article (which could have been written by any chicago writer anytime in the last three or four months - but Noooooooooo - they wait until the last week of Free Agency to do a little digging) helps to allieve some of my concerns over Curry and his ticker. I'm no doctor but it sure does seem like Curry was taking some heavy supplaments which could have explained the arrythima in March.

I think Pax needs to back off of the whole DNA testing demand. Sign Curry to the QO (or offer him some sort of three year contract that both parties can agree to) and be done with all of this.

Ah well... At least training camp opens up in about a week!


EDIT: Friggin WinFixer pop-up!!!!! :curse:


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Informative article. Dr. Maron disagrees with the bottom line, obviously, but its nice to hear the specifics of Dr. Cannom's opinion and theory.

The part about Curry going full court is good to hear. If he wins the arbitration or loses and submits to the test, it sounds like he'll be in somewhat better shap than I'd hoped if he resumes play.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I'm rather amazed that a doctor would go on record like that, both this is a veritable goldmine of information that explains a lot of what's going on.

* Cannom and Estes are re-confirmed to agree and have cleared Curry.

* Paxson's repeated and misleading assertions that Curry's situation was like that of Reggie Lewis or Hank Gathers is completely blown out of the water.

* A sensible rationale was established for Curry's problem in the first place.

* Eddy is quoted, and sounds, somewhat surprisingly, to be handling the situation with rather more maturity than the Bulls at this point. No cries of negligence there or belittling the Dr. on the other side of the fence the way Pax did. Rather, he understands that one doctor disagrees and he decided he can live with that. Right decision or wrong, that's not the response of a stupid kid who doesn't have clue 1 about what's going on. He didn't make a fuss about playing for the QO, though I'm sure it's not his first choice.

* Notes Eddy's been playing full court ball for about three weeks. Says he'll be ready to go in camp.

* Explained clearly that Eddy's heart is structurally sound and does not have HCM.

* Explains that the union clearly has his back with respect to testing.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Interesting piece.

first - none of us can say anything about a disagreement between 2 of the top doctors in the field , unless it's support to liberal/conservative approach.

second - all those words by Dr Cannom don't change the bottomline here - *Eddys contract is still uninsurable!*


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

bulls said:


> i think its kinda funny that this info is coming out now and not a month or 2 ago.could it be that pax and or curry camp is tryin to releave some concerns of a S/N partner?


I think this interview has more to do with the Chicago media getting their act together. Its becoming more of a story now.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

bullet said:


> Interesting piece.
> 
> 
> 
> second - all those words by Dr Cannom don't change the bottomline here - *Eddys contract is still uninsurable!*



IMO this is not that significant. If you ever try to get independent disability insurance you will understand.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

bullet said:


> first - none of us can say anything about a disagreement between 2 of the top doctors in the field , unless it's support to liberal/conservative approach.


Its more than that.

Its a disagreement between 4 doctors and one doctor, according to this article.



> But he said he is satisfied with Cannom's diagnosis, especially since it was supported by two other California cardiologists in recent weeks and also was consistent with the opinion of Boston-based cardiologist Mark Estes, who examined Curry in April.


As I've said before, the Bulls are choosing to adopt the *minority* opinion on this one.

Thanks to the Chicago media for finally picking up the phone and being proactive. For I while I thought they all graduated from the John Paxson school of journalism.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> * Paxson's repeated and misleading assertions that Curry's situation was like that of Reggie Lewis or Hank Gathers is completely blown out of the water.


Here is Cannom's quote regarding this issue. It is not blowing Pax or his concerns out of the water. It is a recognition that what happened then has scared everyone, and that "his field" and now "Eddy" have paid for those mistakes. 



> Curry has been unable to secure disability insurance to cover a contract in the event of a heart-related incident.
> 
> "Those mistakes have cost the field dearly and cost Eddy Curry dearly," Cannom said. "We would never let that happen today.
> 
> "That haunts John Paxson and everyone else making this decision."


I think this quote also helps explain why Cannom came out publicly. He's doing PR for his field. And I wonder about why he would speak so freely about Eddy's condition --- and come after Maron like this. 

I mean, the article is upbeat, basically. For that, I'm glad. It's interesting that it's in the Trib, and not the Suntimes. It's clearly good PR for Eddy and his position. 

But what this doctor is doing is just a little weird to me.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Why would Curry be taking those supplements in the first place?


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

DaBullz said:


> Why would Curry be taking those supplements in the first place?


Supplements with high caffiene levels are taken to lose weight, I'm assuming that's why Eddy was taking them last summer.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Good Hope said:


> Here is Cannom's quote regarding this issue. It is not blowing Pax or his concerns out of the water.


Yes, it is. You skipped over the most obvious parts of the article that reffered to this.

*Cannom said Curry's incident is being linked inappropriately to the health problems of the late Reggie Lewis and Hank Gathers, both of whom had hypertrophic cardiomyopathy when they collapsed and died.*

*"This is no [Reggie Lewis] or Hank Gathers, who had terribly diseased hearts when they died," Cannom said.*

It certainly is blowing Pax out of the water because Pax repeatedly linked Curry's situation to theirs. He directly said

*''The arrhythmia Eddy had is the same arrhythmia Reggie Lewis had, so it is a concern,'' **Paxson said** referring to the former Boston Celtics player who died from cardiomyopathy.*

*He also appears to have said in a radio interview "you know, guys, Reggie Lewis would be alive today if he'd been DNA tested".*

Sorry, but that's about has blown out of the water as blown out of the water gets. Paxson was dead wrong to say those things. They were incorrect and harmful.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

What would be great is if Dr. Maron would give a similar interview and provide us a non-speculative window into what he's thinking. Then we could really engage in at least a remotely legitimate debate of the merits of their respective positions. I don't expect that to happen, though. Frankly, I was very surprised that Cannom did it. 

Although, I gotta admit, the word "liberalist" is not the first one I'd throw out in describing the type of heart specialist I'd like a loved one to visit. "Hey, I'm liberal when it comes to heart disease, man. That Maron's just a fuddy-duddy." 

I'm poking fun, of course, because obviously Dr. Cannom is a recognized leader in his field from what we've read. But if my son was being tested for potential heart defects and the physician came in and said he was going to take a "liberalist" approach in assessing the situation, he'd end up taking no approach because I'd find another physician. Of course, this has nothing to do with Curry.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Why would Curry be taking those supplements in the first place?


I think the real question is Why WOULDNT Curry be taking those supplements??


It is consistent with his approach to conditioning and rebounding effort.

I do hope that his condition was brought on by these stimulants and supplements.Perhaps this will be his wake up call and he will realise there is no substitute for hard work and there are no shortcuts without the possibility of paying a very high price..

As to your question ephedra suppresses appetite and increases the body’s metabolism.People with low metabolism/LAZY LARD ASSES use ephedra to control the amount of food being converted to fat.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> I'm poking fun, of course, because obviously Dr. Cannom is a recognized leader in his field from what we've read. But if my son was being tested for potential heart defects and the physician came in and said he was going to take a "liberalist" approach in assessing the situation, he'd end up taking no approach because I'd find another physician. Of course, this has nothing to do with Curry.


Seems like Cannom's opinion is the majority among the doctors that offered opinions though. I'd be tempted to go with what 4 out of 5 doctors that I've talked to have recommended.

Also, I'd take into account what my son loves to do. If he's happy when running and jumping and playing and 4 of 5 respected doctors say its OK to do so, then I'd be very tempted to go down that path. I'd rather my kid enjoy his life than live in a bubble in fear, especially when 4 of 5 doctors say its the way to go.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

truth said:


> I think the real question is Why WOULDNT Curry be taking those supplements??
> 
> 
> It is consistent with his approach to conditioning and rebounding effort.
> ...


It's also consistent with someone who's team (coach and GM) regularly talked about his poor condition in the press, all season long.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> Seems like Cannom's opinion is the majority among the doctors that offered opinions though. I'd be tempted to go with what 4 out of 5 doctors that I've talked to have recommended.
> 
> Also, I'd take into account what my son loves to do. If he's happy when running and jumping and playing and 4 of 5 respected doctors say its OK to do so, then I'd be very tempted to go down that path. I'd rather my kid enjoy his life than live in a bubble in fear, especially when 4 of 5 doctors say its the way to go.


 But when that one differing opinion is from THE leader of the field then things get a little more hairy. I'm sure Eddy's thoughts are in line with yours - why live in a bubble of fear? Whereas Paxson needs to view this scenario as a GM as well. This is quite the investments. 

I'm unsure where I stand now but I'm just glad I don't need to make any of these decisions.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

truth said:


> I think the real question is Why WOULDNT Curry be taking those supplements??
> 
> 
> It is consistent with his approach to conditioning and rebounding effort.
> ...


 I wouldn't read that much into it. Many athletes use/used ephedra and caffeine supplements in order to get their heart rate elevated for short periods of time. Examples would be fighters looking to cut weight days/weeks before a bout and bodybuilders once they enter their cutting phase. The concern that pops into my head is whether or not Eddy was using these supplements throughout the season. Is he incapable of maintaining weight throughout the course of a season? And seeing how the male metabolism is typically at its peak during the late teens/early 20s what does the future hold for Eddy?


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

So Eddy's irregular heartbeat was caused by too much caffiene? That's very good to know.

What *isn't* good to know is that, by Eddy's own admission, last summer was the first time in his career that he came to training camp in shape and at the proper weight. And we now know that it took dangerous levels of caffeine for Eddy to get into shape and at the proper weight.

So, does this mean that without caffeine supplements, Eddy will not be able to stay in shape and keep his weight down? I think it's safe to assume that Dr. Cannom has instructed Eddy to lay off the caffeine supplements for the sake of his heart- if I were a GM, I would be worried about a guy who has been in shape for training camp once in his life, especially when it took a substance that he can no longer safely consume for him to get into shape.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

yodurk said:


> ...the DNA debate seemingly has grown into a Cannom vs. Maron celebrity death match. Time to hear Dr. Maron's side of the story now. It's all coming down to the doc's point-of-view.


Don't forget about Mark Estes. His opinion is hardly inconsequential.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Mikedc said:


> Yes, it is. You skipped over the most obvious parts of the article that reffered to this.
> 
> *Cannom said Curry's incident is being linked inappropriately to the health problems of the late Reggie Lewis and Hank Gathers, both of whom had hypertrophic cardiomyopathy when they collapsed and died.*
> 
> ...


Hold on. Maybe I'm missing a fundamental medical issue here (and believe me that is entirely possible, in fact its probable), but the arrhythmia, which is what your quote refers to, is not the same as HCM, right? I mean, the arrhythmia Eddy suffered could very well be the same as what Lewis and Gathers had, yes? In fact, I thought that was exactly the case. Its just that Cannom has determined, in his opinion, that there is no accompanying HCM and that is what distinguishes the situation from Lewis/Gathers. So how is Paxson's statements comparing the *arrythmias* incorrect or "dead wrong" as you put it?

This from today's Sun Times:



> Minneapolis cardiologist Barry Maron was the first to suggest that Curry undergo a DNA test to see if he was genetically disposed to hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, a potentially fatal condition *when combined with arrhythmia.*


Link: http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bull27.html

Seriously, I'm seeking guidance because I might not understand. I thought I understood, but you saying that Paxson is dead wrong to compare the arrhythmias confused me.

Cannom is also saying now that their hearts were "terribly diseased *when they died*". Isn't the DNA test intended to determine whether Eddy would be predisposed to *developing* a "terribly diseased heart" and then dying? No one has ever said that Eddy *is now * where Lewis/Gathers were when they died. Paxson is referring to the possibility of death down the road upon developing HCM, not the present state of disease of Eddy's heart.

Also, what does "appears to have said in a radio interview" mean? Did he say those words or not?

Honestly, if what I've wrote is accurate, which it might not be, then I don't think anything Paxson has said, at least nothing you cited, is wrong let alone "dead wrong". In fact, it seems to be a valid explanation for why the team is relying on Maron's recommendation.

Lets also keep in mind that, in any case, nothing is "blown out of the water" until we hear from the doctors on both sides of the issue.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> What would be great is if Dr. Maron would give a similar interview and provide us a non-speculative window into what he's thinking. Then we could really engage in at least a remotely legitimate debate of the merits of their respective positions. I don't expect that to happen, though. Frankly, I was very surprised that Cannom did it.
> 
> Although, I gotta admit, the word "liberalist" is not the first one I'd throw out in describing the type of heart specialist I'd like a loved one to visit. "Hey, I'm liberal when it comes to heart disease, man. That Maron's just a fuddy-duddy."
> 
> I'm poking fun, of course, because obviously Dr. Cannom is a recognized leader in his field from what we've read. But if my son was being tested for potential heart defects and the physician came in and said he was going to take a "liberalist" approach in assessing the situation, he'd end up taking no approach because I'd find another physician. Of course, this has nothing to do with Curry.


You laugh, but having some family experience with this myself, I can assure you that you'd well regret taking the "most conservative" approach someone recommended for an arrhythmia in your loved one, as it is strongly likely to result in a severe reduction in quality of like and serious medical consequences due to the side affects of the more common heart rhythm drugs.

As I've read it, Maron has actually recommended on his website, that if testing shows the predisposition - not the presence of HCM - that some patients should simply be treated as if they have the disease rather than submit for serial testing to see if they actually develop it.

That turns out to be a wonderful cost cutting manuever than insurers love and would love to see a standard. EKGs, after all, are quite expensive.

However, for the patient - in this case often a kid - without the condition - living your life as if you had this condition is means no athletics, nothing strenuous. Hell, you aren't even supposed to screw.

Stop for a minute and really think about that. Sometimes life sucks, and having a higher chance of dying certainly falls into that category. But taking away so much from a kid's quality of life based on the mere predisposition of a condition - rather than actually having it, that's not a sensible prescription. But if you read Maron in detail, that's exactly what he suggests.

Especially when there are other means, albeit more expensive, to test for the problem and let the kid live his life at the same time, his approach is a good one. Is it "conservative"? Yes. It medically gives better odds, yes, probably. And cheaper. And perfectly competent from a medical, technology and science perspective. But despite all this, it entirely misses the point because it's a prescription that tends to make life a lot less worth living.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> Seems like Cannom's opinion is the majority among the doctors that offered opinions though. I'd be tempted to go with what 4 out of 5 doctors that I've talked to have recommended.
> 
> Also, I'd take into account what my son loves to do. If he's happy when running and jumping and playing and 4 of 5 respected doctors say its OK to do so, then I'd be very tempted to go down that path. I'd rather my kid enjoy his life than live in a bubble in fear, especially when 4 of 5 doctors say its the way to go.


Thats you. If you have kids, I respect your free spirited approach.

Like I said, what I wrote has nothing to do with Curry. 

It'd be kind of hard for my boy to run and jump in a coffin six feet under ground. Not only would I not be "tempted" but I'd probably get pretty damn angry at the doctor for even suggesting a "liberalist" approach to assessing his heart disease in the first place. But I'm writing this as a father, not as a professional basketball player.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

DaBullz said:


> It's also consistent with someone who's team (coach and GM) regularly talked about his poor condition in the press, all season long.


I knew that one coming. Your set ups are so predictable I don't know why people give you the chance. 

*Everybody get that? Its Paxson's fault that Curry took supplements that may have caused a heart arrhythmia.* 

It had nothing to do with the fact that, coming into a contract season, Eddy was widely reported to be significantly overweight for the majority of the summer and then miraculously came into camp at 285 lbs. Certainly, the urgency brought on by his early summer apathy had nothing to do with his decision to turn to diet pills. 

It was Paxson again. How dare he request that his players with a history of off-season conditioning problems come into camp in shape! The cold hearted *******.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Thats you. If you have kids, I respect your free spirited approach.


Not my approach.

Its the approach of the majority of respected doctors that have offered opinions.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Thats you. If you have kids, I respect your free spirited approach.
> 
> Like I said, what I wrote has nothing to do with Curry.
> 
> It'd be kind of hard for my boy to run and jump in a coffin six feet under ground. Not only would I not be "tempted" but I'd probably get pretty damn angry at the doctor for even suggesting a "liberalist" approach to assessing his heart disease in the first place. But I'm writing this as a father, not as a professional basketball player.



So you get every checkup out there for your children whether insurance pays for it or not because I am sure there is a doctor out there that *recommends* all kinds of tests for children. I am a parent and I know a lot of parents and none I know take this approach, so maybe we just run in different circles. Also, I doubt seriously you would be shelling out $4000 because 1 doctor out of 5 recommended a test because insurance damn sure ain't covering it. You know the same insurance companies that won't insure Curry because of his heart also won't pay for a DNA test in this situation.

_The internet is the home of saints and martyrs. Some of the most righteous people in the world can be found there, however, I never seem to meet them in person._


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

First, congratulations to Marlen Garcia. This is an honest-to-goodness scoop.

Second, I wouldn't make too much of the "liberalist" comment. Doctors are usually a painstakingly collegial, cooperative bunch, and I'm sure this was Cannom's way of attempting to stave off the appearance of conflict between him and Maron. These guys -- Estes, Maron, and Cannom -- have served together on various committees of the American College of Cardiology and definitely have professional (and maybe even personal) ties. 

Third, let's not overlook the significance of the supporting diagnosis from Estes. If Cannom is self-described as "liberalist," I doubt that Estes would say the same about himself,given his involvement in the Reggie Lewis case.

Fourth, congratulations to Eddy Curry and his management. The notion that he's uninformed and in need of John Paxson to rescue him is laughable. He is level-headed, totally aware of what's going on, and in a fine position to make his own decisions. He is getting cutting edge medical and legal advice, and they are clearly taking the high road and have won the PR battle in a rout imo. It would seem to me that Eddy has finally surrounded himself with a terrific support staff, and that makes me even more encouraged about Eddy's long-term future as a player.

Fifth, John Paxson. I am probably never going to get over the Reggie Lewis remarks unless he apologizes publicly. It was an evil thing to do, plain and simple.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Mikedc said:


> You laugh, but having some family experience with this myself, I can assure you that you'd well regret taking the "most conservative" approach someone recommended for an arrhythmia in your loved one, as it is strongly likely to result in a severe reduction in quality of like and serious medical consequences due to the side affects of the more common heart rhythm drugs.
> 
> As I've read it, Maron has actually recommended on his website, that if testing shows the predisposition - not the presence of HCM - that some patients should simply be treated as if they have the disease rather than submit for serial testing to see if they actually develop it.
> 
> ...


Fascinating. But I didn't say I'd take the "most conservative" approach. I said I wouldn't want a doctor taking a "liberalist" one. 

And, in Curry's situation which I expressly was not referring to, the DNA test is non-invasive and provides information *to be weighed*. As a father, if a doctor told me a non-invasive test existed that would provide additional information that I could weigh, not blindly rely on, in addressing my son's health and happiness but that in his "liberalist" approach it he wasn't recommending it, I'd cut ties with him on the spot.

Having the information does not necessitate becoming a slave to it. Particularly when it can be weighed against the inconclusiveness and risks of a false positive/negative discussed in here ad nauseum.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*A published report in April claimed Curry's family had a history of heart trouble, but Cannom said there is no known history of such problems.*



eddy's mom _did_ have a heart attack, right? is this not even a modicum of concern for the good doctor?


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Hold on. Maybe I'm missing a fundamental medical issue here (and believe me that is entirely possible, in fact its probable), but the arrhythmia, which is what your quote refers to, is not the same as HCM, right? I mean, the arrhythmia Eddy suffered could very well be the same as what Lewis and Gathers had, yes? In fact, I thought that was exactly the case. Its just that Cannom has determined, in his opinion, that there is no accompanying HCM and that is what distinguishes the situation from Lewis/Gathers. So how is Paxson's statements comparing the *arrythmias* incorrect or "dead wrong" as you put it?
> 
> This from today's Sun Times:
> 
> ...


As reported by the Bulls' doctors at the April press conference, Curry had a transient episode of non-sustained ventricular tachycardia. In a structurally sound heart, this is not harmful. It can be brought on by stress, diet, caffeine, medications, etc. Up to 40% of the general population may experience this sort of arrythmia.

Lewis and Gathers had fatal bouts of SUSTAINED ventricular tachycardia. The structural damage to their heart caused a fatal rhythm disturbance and things just snowball from there.

It's not the arrythmia itself that's the killer, it's the underlying heart disease. 

As for what Paxson said on the radio, you can hear it yourself on the links to the Score interview earlier this month. My recollection is that he said something like "You know, Reggie Lewis wouldn't have died if they had this DNA test back then."


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

MemphisX said:


> *So you get every checkup out there for your children whether insurance pays for it or not because I am sure there is a doctor out there that recommends all kinds of tests for children. * I am a parent and I know a lot of parents and none I know take this approach, so maybe we just run in different circles. *Also, I doubt seriously you would be shelling out $4000 because 1 doctor out of 5 recommended a test because insurance damn sure ain't covering it.* You know the same insurance companies that won't insure Curry because of his heart also won't pay for a DNA test in this situation.
> 
> _The internet is the home of saints and martyrs. Some of the most righteous people in the world can be found there, however, I never seem to meet them in person._


First, your hypothetical is absurd because what we are talking about is an extreme situation where there already exists a very real medical concern over a heart condition. I'm not talking about getting flu shots here pal.

Second, this is getting a little personal when you start to question what steps I would or would not take to protect the health of my son. Perhaps I shouldn't have put it into play. I certainly wasn't expecting to be called a liar about it. I assumed a higher level of class in the responses. Sometimes I assume too much.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> *A published report in April claimed Curry's family had a history of heart trouble, but Cannom said there is no known history of such problems.*
> 
> 
> 
> eddy's mom _did_ have a heart attack, right? is this not even a modicum of concern for the good doctor?


If her heart attack was caused by coronary artery disease, which the odds say it almost certainly was, this most likely isn't a concern for Curry -- at least not at his tender age.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> Not my approach.
> 
> Its the approach of the majority of respected doctors that have offered opinions.


You said that is what you'd do. I'm just saying what I'd do. There is no reason to argue about that. I'm sorry I even mentioned it.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Thats you. If you have kids, I respect your free spirited approach.
> 
> Like I said, what I wrote has nothing to do with Curry.
> 
> It'd be kind of hard for my boy to run and jump in a coffin six feet under ground. Not only would I not be "tempted" but I'd probably get pretty damn angry at the doctor for even suggesting a "liberalist" approach to assessing his heart disease in the first place. But I'm writing this as a father, not as a professional basketball player.


What if the "liberalist" doctor's diagnosis agreed exactly with an earlier diagnosis by a "conservative" doctor?

Note: I am assuming that Estes's involvement in the Lewis case makes him "conservative" by default, or at the very least not a guy who is going to frivolously clear professional basketball players.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> First, your hypothetical is absurd because what we are talking about is an extreme situation where there already exists a very real medical concern over a heart condition. I'm not talking about getting flu shots here pal.
> 
> Second, this is getting a little personal when you start to question what steps I would or would not take to protect the health of my son. Perhaps I shouldn't have put it into play. I certainly wasn't expecting to be called a liar about it. I assumed a higher level of class in the responses. Sometimes I assume too much.


I wasn't getting personal. However, it has been the theme on this issue that Curry and his advisors are more concerned about getting paid then him living and IMO it has been disgusting. The notion that Paxson and the Bulls are more concerned about Curry's health than Curry himself is small minded.

Maybe I should have just left it at I have never heard of people getting expensive procedures willy, nilly whether they were invasive or non-invasive especially a test that is not going to show you anything that cheaper, less invasive monitoring will be able to show.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> What if the "liberalist" doctor's diagnosis agreed exactly with an earlier diagnosis by a "conservative" doctor?
> 
> Note: I am assuming that Estes's involvement in the Lewis case makes him "conservative" by default, or at the very least not a guy who is going to frivolously clear professional basketball players.


Scott, no offense to you or your question, but I don't want to go down this road any more. 

I should have never set the hypothetical based around what I'd do for my boy because, when I tell you what I'd do, you'll either question the appropriateness of it or you'll question the truthfullness of it just like these other guys. And that isn't ever goint to lead to anything good.

I'm biting my tongue with regard to prior posts as it is. I'm just going to drop it.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I'm having a very hard time taking your post as an honest attempt to discuss or learn anything. 



Ron Cey said:


> Hold on. Maybe I'm missing a fundamental medical issue here (and believe me that is entirely possible, in fact its probable), but the arrhythmia, which is what your quote refers to, is not the same as HCM, right? I mean, the arrhythmia Eddy suffered could very well be the same as what Lewis and Gathers had, yes?


No. Curry's was apparently brought on by caffine and supplements. Lewis' was brought on by deterioration of the heart muscle due to cocaine use, and Gathers', from what I remember, was due to HCM.

Curry's was a benign arrythmia not related to an underlying heart disease. The other two had recurrent arrythmias caused by their underlying heart disease.



> In fact, I thought that was exactly the case. Its just that Cannom has determined, in his opinion, that there is no accompanying HCM and that is what distinguishes the situation from Lewis/Gathers. So how is Paxson's statements comparing the *arrythmias* incorrect or "dead wrong" as you put it?


Because Lewis' arrythmia was a recurrant issue, caused by cocaine use that damaged his heart.

Lewis didn't have any sort of congenital HCM in the first place. Nor does your lawyering of the words here (which I think doesn't befit you) get the whole point, that Paxson was comparing Curry's benign arrythmia to Lewis' dangerous one.

The only sensible meaning a comparison of the arrythmia itself has is whether it's dangerous or not. Without that context, it's pretty senseless.

*As Cannom said, such comparisons are inappropriate*. The horse is dead. Get over it. Show a little bit of honesty and admit it for god sake. Yeash.



> This from today's Sun Times:
> 
> Link: http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bull27.html
> 
> ...


Which is both why they had the arrythmia (and not why Curry had his) and why they died.

Combining is a bad word to use. Lewis and Gathers' arrythmia was part and parcel of their disease. Curry has no disease.



> Isn't the DNA test intended to determine whether Eddy would be predisposed to *developing* a "terribly diseased heart" and then dying?


I think Pax would be silly in this case to not test everyone.

Presumably there are DNA tests to determine whether Chandler is genetically predisposed to have a degenerative back condition and Skiles is genetically predisposed to be a cocaine addict and alcoholic.

Yet, like Curry, despite the transitive problems these guys have had in those regards, the problem was examined in detail and found NOT to be symptomatic of an underlying current disease. Since there is no current disease, merely a temporary symptom, it would be a fishing expedition at best to hardball them into a DNA test and bandy about publically whether Skiles might "develop" a terrible cocaine addiction like Michael Ray Richardson.



> No one has ever said that Eddy *is now *where Lewis/Gathers were when they died.


LOL. Except the implicit cue given when Paxson was saying a DNA test could have saved Lewis.



> Paxson is referring to the possibility of death down the road upon developing HCM, not the present state of disease of Eddy's heart.


Double LOL at that. 



> Also, what does "appears to have said in a radio interview" mean? Did he say those words or not?


Appears to have said is because I didn't listen to the interview myself, but Scott May quoted it and I don't see a reason he'd lie about it.



> Honestly, if what I've wrote is accurate


It's not.



> Lets also keep in mind that, in any case, nothing is "blown out of the water" until we hear from the doctors on both sides of the issue.


On the contrary, these particular statements are clearly contradicted.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> It's also consistent with someone who's team (coach and GM) regularly talked about his poor condition in the press, all season long.


Are you implying what i think you are????

Perhaps you should advocate the use of steroids due to all the stress Eddy is under to condition,be in shape and EARN his money....

I wish Eddy nothng but the best of health,but the guy has NEVER EVER trained like he should,and I shudder to think what his diet is like, mixed in with his liquid ephedra shakes,caffine supplements and intravenous RED BULL


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*"There's a standard being applied that wouldn't be applied if he weren't a $60 million athlete," Cannom said of the Bulls' request for genetic testing. "This is beyond clinical routine care."*

how nice of dr. cannom to be concerned about the financial aspect of clearing eddy. beyond routine clinical care? sheesh, one would hope so.

and i would think that a family history of coronary heart disease would at least warrant a mention as opposed to a flat out denial that it even existed. it's not like eddy's diet has been strict macrobiotic vegetarian his whole life.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> *"There's a standard being applied that wouldn't be applied if he weren't a $60 million athlete," Cannom said of the Bulls' request for genetic testing. "This is beyond clinical routine care."*
> 
> how nice of dr. cannom to be concerned about the financial aspect of clearing eddy. beyond routine clinical care? sheesh, one would hope so.
> 
> and i would think that a family history of coronary heart disease would at least warrant a mention as opposed to a flat out denial that it even existed. it's not like eddy's diet has been strict macrobiotic vegetarian his whole life.


Sigh . . . wasn't he talking about HCM and DNA testing?

There is probably not a single person in the world who's been DNA tested to assess his risk of coronary artery disease. 

It's a factor that Eddy needs to worry about someday, but not now. If you're honestly concerned about NBA players and the risk of coronary artery disease, I'm pretty much at a loss for words.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Thanks for clarifying what I repeatedly stated was probably my own misunderstanding of the medical side of things, MikeDC. Given what you and Scott wrote about the arrhythmias, you are right that Paxson's layman's comparison of the arrhythmias is inaccurate. Of course, all of what Dr. Cannom has said is subject to the contrary opinion of Dr. Maron which we do not have the benefit of.

But the tone in here today is an embarrassment - your's included.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

ScottMay said:


> Sigh . . . wasn't he talking about HCM and DNA testing?
> 
> There is probably not a single person in the world who's been DNA tested to assess his risk of coronary artery disease.
> 
> It's a factor that Eddy needs to worry about someday, but not now. If you're honestly concerned about NBA players and the risk of coronary artery disease, I'm pretty much at a loss for words.



that would be a switch. :smilewink

i'm not confusing the issue. simply stating that the doctor said there was no family history of heart trouble in a blanket statement. this is incorrect, imo. 



sigh.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> But the tone in here today is an embarrassment - your's included.


I am shedding plenty of crocodile tears on your behalf.

If I need to quit crying, I'll go back to the April Eddy Curry press conference thread and revisit your "tone" toward me when I imagined the Curry stuff would play out exactly the way that it did.

Give me a break.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> I am shedding plenty of crocodile tears on your behalf.
> 
> If I need to quit crying, I'll go back to the April Eddy Curry press conference thread and revisit your "tone" toward me when I imagined the Curry stuff would play out exactly the way that it did.
> 
> Give me a break.


I wasn't talking about you at all.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

good lord. do i have to go all schoolmistress on you guys? lets keep personal feelings, sainthood and martyrdom out of it.

:naughty: 


----


so nobody else thinks its just a bit off that dr. cannom is talking about how much money this could have cost eddy? what does he care? that's not his concern, that's leon rose's concern. oh wait...


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> good lord. do i have to go all schoolmistress on you guys? lets keep personal feelings, sainthood and martyrdom out of it.
> 
> :naughty:















> so nobody else thinks its just a bit off that dr. cannom is talking about how much money this could have cost eddy? what does he care? that's not his concern, that's leon rose's concern. oh wait...


Me thinky that Cannom is talking about the Bulls taking an "ultra-conservative" stance on this since there is a lot of money on the line.

Not treating Eddy like a "normal" patient... but a high-priced investment. IMO.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Thanks for clarifying what I repeatedly stated was probably my own misunderstanding of the medical side of things, MikeDC. Given what you and Scott wrote about the arrhythmias, you are right that Paxson's layman's comparison of the arrhythmias is inaccurate. Of course, all of what Dr. Cannom has said is subject to the contrary opinion of Dr. Maron which we do not have the benefit of.
> 
> But the tone in here today is an embarrassment - your's included.


OK, let's all take a step back from the rhetoric, sorry. It just seemed that the context of Pax's comments was pretty obvious and misleading.

At this point, though, *is it fair to attribute Pax's comparison to a laymen's understanding?* I mean, we're all laymen here, but we seem now to have a pretty consistent handle on the difference after a bit of study. And we've got Dr. Cannom, Dr. Estes, and apparently two others explaining things.

Granted, we've got Dr. Maron's opinion, and he disagrees to some degree about whether the test should be taken, though apparently not in the current diagnosis.

But given all of this info available to Paxson, I have a hard time attributing it to a "layman's understanding" of the situation. He could not understand anything except that a bunch of important doctors disagree, and it would have been enough for to make a prudent decision to not hang himself out there with the statements he made.

It was a bad decision.

That doesn't mean the end of the world or anything - I don't think the situation is totally screwed even now. It's also unclear whether it's the meaningful decision here. Pax could have done the right thing here and Curry could simply throw out unreasonable contract demands that render his decision effectively meaningless in the grand scheme of thigns. It's hard to know. Everyone makes bad decisions at some point, and time has to tell just how bad this one was and how good the Bulls many good decisions turn out to be. But I'm also going to call a spade a spade, and this could have been done better.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> so nobody else thinks its just a bit off that dr. cannom is talking about how much money this could have cost eddy? what does he care? that's not his concern, that's leon rose's concern. oh wait...


Yeah, I'm sure that Cannom and Estes would risk their hard-earned scholarly and professional reputations, highly sought-after departmental head positions at very prestigious teaching hospitals, and annual salaries upward of $500,000 just to give Eddy the news he wants to hear.

I mean, that's what you're implying, right? That Eddy has shopped for a diagnosis?

Sheesh . . . I can understand wanting to hear Maron's side of the story, but tearing apart Cannom just looks desperate and obtuse.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Well, from what I can tell, this article finally tips the balance for me, in Curry's favor. I think the preponderence of evidence shows that his health is almost certainly fine, and that Pax's insistence on the DNA test is over the line (cue John Goodman as Walter).

What I don't agree with is:
_-The implied claims that Pax is being purposely malicious in the way he's handled this._ I know that some of you can't forgive his comparisons to Lewis. Fair enough, but there is still the simple fact that Lewis collapsed due to a heart ailment. The medical similarities may end there, but I can't fault Pax for having that episode in the back of his mind, even if the evidence at hand points to it being unrelated. I am convinced by the doctor's commentary, ScottMay and Mikedc among others that he's firmly in the wrong about them being similar cases, and I do agree that he shouldn't be drawing that direct similarity in the press, but I don't think he's done it to be conniving. I think, for better or worse, and I've already said that I now believe it's for the worse, Pax feels that he is responsible for Eddy's welfare (especially considering that he's likely to be under contract with Chicago for at least another year) and must take every conceivable precaution. I just don't think this is out of malice. And none of the bloviating about this on this board to date has convinced me otherwise. Maybe I'm giving Paxson too much credit. He earned my confidence in his first 2 years on the job - I know that's not true for many others here - and I think he says what he does in good faith.

_The idea that Curry should have been signed (relatively) quickly and easily. _ Pax's overbearing handling of this, and my conclusion that he's not handling it properly already admitted, I can't blame him for wanting Curry to have insurance and wanting every possible bit of information. It's easy for armchair GMs to hem and haw about this, or other topics. All I can say is if I were in Pax's shoes I'd be pretty terrified of the idea of giving Curry, who recently had heart-related issues for which there is still no concensus (though it is very close, which is great), is chronically difficult to keep motivated, doesn't rebound, and, it appears, took an unnatural amount of caffeine in order to cut corners in his training, a contract with tens of millions of dollars guaranteed. I'm as nervous about the prospect of losing him without compensation as most, but that doesn't mean I find inexplicable fault with Pax's caution.

so...in conclusion, Pax is wrong, but I still understand where he's coming from. I just wanted to throw that out there, since this debate has become incredibly, and bitterly, polarized.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

I agree. Applying the smear to Cannom seems like a stretch.

But, I guess it was bound to happen.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

It does seem a bit odd that the Dr would actually quote the exact $60 million figure.

Unless the Dr is a very big hoops fan who is of the opinion that Eddy would get a $60 million deal if it weren't for the heart questions, how is he quoting a figure at all?

I can see him making a comment about the overkill of test requests existing only because Eddy is a highly-paid athlete, but quoting an exact figure does seem a little odd to me.


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## FreeSpeech101 (Jul 30, 2004)

Good news. It should be eaiser to trade the bug guy now. Wish Eddy all the luck in the world.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

If this was a movie albeit a poorly written one all the greatest doctors in the world would clear Eddy and one crazy nutjob would declare he could die on the court and then he does and all the doctors are standing around like how did this crazy nutjob know? God forbid that really happens though. Hopefully the Bulls and Eddy become convinced he is not in any danger at all and he is able to resume his career.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> Yes, it is. You skipped over the most obvious parts of the article that reffered to this.
> 
> *Cannom said Curry's incident is being linked inappropriately to the health problems of the late Reggie Lewis and Hank Gathers, both of whom had hypertrophic cardiomyopathy when they collapsed and died.*
> 
> ...


Dude, I didn't skip over it. I went to the second page of the article and found something that some people may have skipped over, which puts Paxson's concern in a reasonable context. 

I'm not disagreeing that the article states clearly that Eddy's case is not comparable to Reggie Lewis, because Eddy doesn't have a diseased heart. 

Which we've known, thanks to the information Scott in particular has provided us. 

However, the article still states that Lewis and Gathers suffered from HCM, and that the symptoms that Eddy has had are 

1). Vent. arrhythmia, and 
2) An enlarged heart

which are suggestive enough to one leading expert to recommend the testing to see if he is predisposed to developing HCM (i.e., that these symptoms are early indicators, no?)

Cannom finds an alternative explanation for those two symptoms (caffeinated supplements and normal athlete's heart for a man his size), and says Eddy is fine. As K4E says, maybe, 4 to 1 means Cannom is right. 

But Cannom's discussion doesn't make Paxson's statements false. They put Paxson's concerns in a clearer context. 

(And here, by the way, I agree, the beat writers needed to do some ground work about 3 months ago. They are the ones who are responsible for giving context to Paxson's statements of concern, not Paxson. His job is to explain why he thinks the test is important.) 

I don't fault Paxson for repeatedly expressing why he thinks the test is important. And Cannom's statements about "past mistakes" that have hurt the "field" and "haunted" people like Paxson show that Cannom doesn't consider Paxson unreasonable to have made them or to consider these issues seriously. 

Only internet know-it-alls like us can do that.

I know Scott directed his scathing comments toward me regarding Paxson's concern for Eddy. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. If Pax's paternalistic attitude toward Eddy is based on false or incomplete information, then he needs to take a step back, and reconsider how he's approaching this whole situation.

One thing I noticed in the article as well is that Paxson declined to make a comment.

So, we'll see how he responds to Cannom's diagnosis and statements, and get a still clearer picture of what has gone on and will go on from here on out.

One other thing of course is the picture of Eddy as understanding and content and focused as can be. Of course, this is PR. Eddy hasn't made any comments to the media for some time. This is a controlled event. So, take it for what it's worth. But it is worthwhile to note that Eddy does not indict Paxson, or complain in the least about the treatment. Also a PR move, but quite different from the threats that Milstein the lawyer made on Friday. 

So, could Eddy resign with the Bulls after a successful year on the court? Boy, it's hard to say with all the spin. I still think Eddy would. But, maybe Eddy is as pissed as Scott May is, privately. I guess we'll see.

Anyway, back to my original idea (of which I always have very few, so I have to point them out ), is that Cannom respects Paxson's concern.

Fire away!


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Does anyone think that if Eddy remains healthy this year, and is pivotal to our team, will he be brought back by Paxson for the future? Granted we might be on bad terms (Bulls and Eddy) after this whole summer, but we can offer more money and we are his hometown.

I wonder what Pax decides to do, if it comes to this next summer. He has stated he wants Curry, but is this whole heart issue a good excuse to get out of resigning Eddy long term. 

I like Eddy to be back, but we need the right players for our team's method of winning. Whether that is a Big Guy with a good low post offense, or a Big Guy who his great at Rebounding and D (Nene? etc).


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Good Hope said:


> If Pax's paternalistic attitude toward Eddy is based on false or incomplete information, then he needs to take a step back, and reconsider how he's approaching this whole situation.
> 
> One thing I noticed in the article as well is that Paxson declined to make a comment.
> 
> So, we'll see how he responds to Cannom's diagnosis and statements, and get a still clearer picture of what has gone on and will go on from here on out.


Another interesting reaction could be from the insurance industry. With a clearer diagnosis of the problem, perhaps Eddy will now be able to get coverage somewhere.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Another interesting reaction could be from the insurance industry. With a clearer diagnosis of the problem, perhaps Eddy will now be able to get coverage somewhere.


I hope they weren't waiting for Marlen Garcia to explain things to them... 

Anyway, kudos to Eddy's group. I think they put out the information they needed to put out in about the right manner this time. Cannom is a powerful witness. Much better than that lawyer! (sorry, TB)

Pax needs a good and reasoned counter. I think that a few more exchanges like this, and the problem could in fact be solved. :kiss:


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Another interesting reaction could be from the insurance industry. With a clearer diagnosis of the problem, perhaps Eddy will now be able to get coverage somewhere.


Just because a clearer diagnosis has been made to us doesn't mean that a clearer diagnosis wasn't being made to insurance companies such as Trustmark back when we hoped Eddy would be insurable. It still didn't work. For better or for worse, it looks Maron would have had the opinion that would have scared them away.

Remember, Paxson is leaning towards not putting Curry on the court until he submits to a DNA test. Paxson knows what Dr. Cannom thinks already, so this article will not surprise him. His position is not going to change because of a newspaper article. It's just a PR hit, but I think it's a heavy punch.

edit: And we can't expect a follow up article on Maron's position, either. Doctor's don't usually defend their diagnoses like this in a newspaper.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Another interesting reaction could be from the insurance industry. With a clearer diagnosis of the problem, perhaps Eddy will now be able to get coverage somewhere.



That is the diagnosis Rose took to the insurance companies he talked to after the NBA insurer said no. It's also what the NBA insurer had available to them at the time they made the decision.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> Well, from what I can tell, this article finally tips the balance for me, in Curry's favor. I think the preponderence of evidence shows that his health is almost certainly fine, and that Pax's insistence on the DNA test is over the line (cue John Goodman as Walter).
> 
> What I don't agree with is:
> _-The implied claims that Pax is being purposely malicious in the way he's handled this._ I know that some of you can't forgive his comparisons to Lewis. Fair enough, but there is still the simple fact that Lewis collapsed due to a heart ailment. The medical similarities may end there, but I can't fault Pax for having that episode in the back of his mind, even if the evidence at hand points to it being unrelated. I am convinced by the doctor's commentary, ScottMay and Mikedc among others that he's firmly in the wrong about them being similar cases, and I do agree that he shouldn't be drawing that direct similarity in the press, but I don't think he's done it to be conniving.


I find it impossible to believe that someone with such a nuanced knowledge of the DNA tests, including its shortcomings, would not understand or have been made aware of the differences in the dangers of arrythmias in a healthy vs a diseased heart, and very early on in the process, too. DNA wouldn't have saved Reggie Lewis; not doing cocaine and following the advice of doctors would have.

There was a persistence and volume with which the message was delivered that belies the notion that the comparison was all an innocent mistake. On the Score interview I refer to a lot, for example, Paxson basically brought it up completely on his own and totally out of context.



> All I can say is if I were in Pax's shoes I'd be pretty terrified of the idea of giving Curry, who recently had heart-related issues for which there is still no concensus (though it is very close, which is great), is chronically difficult to keep motivated, doesn't rebound, and, it appears, took an unnatural amount of caffeine in order to cut corners in his training, a contract with tens of millions of dollars guaranteed.


If Pax truly has doubts about this stuff, he has done a terrible, terrible job of general managing by waiting until the eleventh hour to deal with them, and that's got nothing to do with the heart stuff. More likely is that in spite of their often harsh words, Skiles's and Paxson's actions with regard to Curry show they feel he is a very valuable player.

P.S. I repped this, but I also wanted to add publicly how highly I think of this post.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Good Hope said:


> Anyway, kudos to Eddy's group. I think they put out the information they needed to put out in about the right manner this time. Cannom is a powerful witness. Much better than that lawyer! (sorry, TB)


What makes you think that Eddy's group put this information out there?

Could it not be the work of a somewhat-ambitious journalist trying to get to the bottom of a story and actually making a phone call?

Cannom is a respected, independent professional. I don't think he's just some mouthpiece of the "Kamp Kurry" which I think your statement here falsely implies.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> It's also consistent with someone who's team (coach and GM) regularly talked about his poor condition in the press, all season long.


I agree i always had a problem with the 285 lbs.(the same as his listed weight from his rookie year) # they put on him last season, it seems to me paxskiles put an emphasis on his weight instead of his fitness , which to me is by far the most important thing.

he is 22 he is still growing its natural to put on good weight , as in some muscle , like most young big men do in their early nba seasons , but it seems to me that bulls management isn't as interested as they i feel they should be.

nature might be telling curry to be 300 lbs and he's being told to fight it., and really 15 pounds isn't much for an 18 to gain by the time he 22.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> What makes you think that Eddy's group put this information out there?
> 
> Could it not be the work of a somewhat-ambitious journalist trying to get to the bottom of a story and actually making a phone call?
> 
> Cannom is a respected, independent professional. I don't think he's just some mouthpiece of the "Kamp Kurry" which I think your statement here falsely implies.


Legally, no doctor involved in any of this can speak about it without Curry's permission. That's HIPPA law.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

narek said:


> Legally, no doctor involved in any of this can speak about it without Curry's permission. That's HIPPA law.


Does not change anything I wrote, other than Curry had to give permission.

Still an independent professional opinion.

Still could have been generated by an ambitious journalist.

The only other incentive I can think about for Cannom to stick his neck out like that is that he feels that what that Bulls are doing is so wrong that he just had to say something. Or that its just the right thing to do.

Or perhaps...
1.) Journalist gets off *** to write story.
2.) Contacts Cannom.
3.) Gets Curry's permission to talk to him.
4.) Talks to him.
5.) Writes story.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> Does not change anything I wrote, other than Curry had to give permission.
> 
> Still an independent professional opinion.
> 
> ...


You left out 

6.) Didn't bother to contact any of the other doctors, not even the one who suggested the DNA test.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

bullsville said:


> You left out
> 
> 6.) Didn't bother to contact any of the other doctors, not even the one who suggested the DNA test.


You can't be sure of this, though. I'm not sure most doctors would agree to an article like this. Maybe he called Estes and Maron as well and they declined. Anyway, it's a good scoop, clearly one of the most informative and important articles Garcia has written -- even if it just clarifies one opinion.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> What makes you think that Eddy's group put this information out there?
> 
> Could it not be the work of a somewhat-ambitious journalist trying to get to the bottom of a story and actually making a phone call?
> 
> Cannom is a respected, independent professional. I don't think he's just some mouthpiece of the "Kamp Kurry" which I think your statement here falsely implies.


Sorry to imply that. I don't think he is a mouthpiece for anything but himself and his medical opinion. Narek pointed out what I mean. Access to information is controlled. He can't talk publicly, unless he's asked. You don't think that ambitious journalists didn't try to reach Curry earlier? 

It was time for them to talk, and present a picture of Eddy and his situation. It's a controlled picture. Ambitious journalists are somewhat at the mercy, so to speak, of who is willing to talk, when. 

I'm not saying it's sinister, because it isn't. It's what they should do. The most important thing for is what it signals to Paxson.

1) He needs to make a compelling case for insisting on testing, or it's going to be very difficult for him to persist in that request.

2) Eddy is willing to play, and is getting ready to play, and isn't going to be a distraction on the team.

3) It leaves a door open for further discussions, even though the QO is really all that is doable for this year.

Getting back to point one, I think Pax touched a nerve by threatening to demand a test for playing, even on the QO. Not saying anything about Pax's strategy :angel: , but clearly, Eddy and his people don't want it to go to that. 

Like I said, it will be interesting what Paxson comes back with. Probably, too little movement, too late. But who knows?

You know, K4E, this situation has been about controlled info, from the beginning. To me, its a sign that Eddy and his team have really put things together, so that now, they're making Paxson really think. Good for them.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> You can't be sure of this, though. I'm not sure most doctors would agree to an article like this. Maybe he called Estes and Maron as well and they declined. Anyway, it's a good scoop, clearly one of the most informative and important articles Garcia has written -- even if it just clarifies one opinion.


OK, so I left out

7.) called Estes and Maron as well and they declined. 

Although that seems rather stupid to me, a Dr can only further his career by getting his name out there. If Eddy has given permission to freely discuss his case publicly (as he did for Cannom), it seems to me as Estes and Maron have nothing to lose by doing so.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> What makes you think that Eddy's group put this information out there?


Eddy at least had to sign off about it before Cannom could speak to the details of his case.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

bullsville said:


> OK, so I left out
> 
> 7.) called Estes and Maron as well and they declined.
> 
> Although that seems rather stupid to me, a Dr can only further his career by getting his name out there. If Eddy has given permission to freely discuss his case publicly (as he did for Cannom), it seems to me as Estes and Maron have nothing to lose by doing so.


I can't say that I agree with you. Getting into a potential spat with out leaders of the field seems a bit childish for these expects, no? I mean, have you ever seen an article quite like this one before, with one doctor discussing another doctor's diagnosis?

Also, if HIPPA laws insist that Eddy needs to give the doctor permission before he submits to contributing to an article, why would Curry allow Maron to weaken his position in the press?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> Eddy at least had to sign off about it before Cannom could speak to the details of his case.





Good Hope said:


> You know, K4E, this situation has been about controlled info, from the beginning. To me, its a sign that Eddy and his team have really put things together, so that now, they're making Paxson really think. Good for them.


Yah, good points.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> I can't say that I agree with you. Getting into a potential spat with out leaders of the field seems a bit childish for these expects, no? I mean, have you ever seen an article quite like this one before, with one doctor discussing another doctor's diagnosis?
> 
> Also, if HIPPA laws insist that Eddy needs to give the doctor permission before he submits to contributing to an article, why would Curry allow Maron to weaken his position in the press?


Maron could have easily discussed his diagnoses without commenting on what Cannom had to say, though.

And I agree that there is no reason for Eddy to allow Maron to comment, since his diagnosis contradicts what Eddy wants to hear (and what he wants to be heard). But as a journalist, Garcia should have mentioned that fact in the article, or at least mention that the other doctors refused to comment.

And getting into a peeing match does seem childish, sure, which makes me wonder why Cannom even ventured into the territory of critiquing a colleague's diagnosis? If anything, it seems to me that Cannom sort of "called out" Maron's diagnosis by publicly commenting on it, IMHO Maron wouldn't be acting "childish" if he simply defended and/or explained his diagnosis.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

ScottMay said:


> I find it impossible to believe that someone with such a nuanced knowledge of the DNA tests, including its shortcomings, would not understand or have been made aware of the differences in the dangers of arrythmias in a healthy vs a diseased heart, and very early on in the process, too. DNA wouldn't have saved Reggie Lewis; not doing cocaine and following the advice of doctors would have.
> 
> There was a persistence and volume with which the message was delivered that belies the notion that the comparison was all an innocent mistake. On the Score interview I refer to a lot, for example, Paxson basically brought it up completely on his own and totally out of context.


You've stated your case well over the past few weeks. I'm just not as far to that side of things as you are. I think Pax does understand the differences between Curry's health and Lewis's episode, yet is proceeding with incredible caution because, perhaps quite irrationally, he envisions Curry having a similarly catastrophic episode. I think that's why he throws Lewis's name out there too much, and to the wrong people. I just don't think he's doing it with an intent to harm, but like I said, I could be giving Pax too much leeway.



> If Pax truly has doubts about this stuff, he has done a terrible, terrible job of general managing by waiting until the eleventh hour to deal with them, and that's got nothing to do with the heart stuff. More likely is that in spite of their often harsh words, Skiles's and Paxson's actions with regard to Curry show they feel he is a very valuable player.


Has he really waited until the 11th hour? I don't think the fact that there has been a recent deluge of press about Curry means that both sides weren't doing their homework. I just think that training camp is approaching and more information has come out lately. I do think Paxson thinks Curry is valuable. His "we'll match any offer" rhetoric, starting midseason last year, is further evidence, even though that has turned into another wedge issue in this whole situation. I'm still confused as to what exactly Paxson should do, so while it's frustrating that we're at this point, I don't know what alternatives there really were. I'm in favor of the supposed 3-year, partially guaranteed offer that was bandied about, but who _really_ knows what's happened in the negotiations?



> P.S. I repped this, but I also wanted to add publicly how highly I think of this post.


thanks for that. I think several people, and you in particular, on both ends of this discussion are posting some superior stuff, and for the most part everyone is being completely reasonable. Too bad it's getting a little heated, but that's how it goes on this board, to both its credit and downfall. Just wanted to add a middle-ground perspective.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> You've stated your case well over the past few weeks. I'm just not as far to that side of things as you are. I think Pax does understand the differences between Curry's health and Lewis's episode, yet is proceeding with incredible caution because, perhaps quite irrationally, he envisions Curry having a similarly catastrophic episode. I think that's why he throws Lewis's name out there too much, and to the wrong people. I just don't think he's doing it with an intent to harm, but like I said, I could be giving Pax too much leeway.


Doesn't it seem rather strange, though- to be proceeding with incredible caution on one hand and on the other throwing out the most flammable example possible?

Without even getting into intent, it just doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense to me to be overly cautious about everything except what you let out of your mouth.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Mikedc said:


> Doesn't it seem rather strange, though- to be proceeding with incredible caution on one hand and on the other throwing out the most flammable example possible?
> 
> Without even getting into intent, it just doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense to me to be overly cautious about everything except what you let out of your mouth.


To be honest, it doesn't really seem odd at all. Heart complications are scary things. What happened to Lewis is the scariest possibility. That's the image that I suspect is etched in Pax's mind. It makes sense to me that he'd invoke the name, even if I personally think he should be far more judicious with the media. I think Pax feels an obligation to be as certain as he possibly can about this, even to the point of going too far. I understand where you and ScottMay are coming from, and for all I know you could be 100% right. While I've disagreed, and occasionally sparred with ScottMay over Pax/Skiles in the past, he's been prescient about this situation in many ways, so it's entirely possible that he and you are right.

I'm not generally a huge Carol Slezak fan, but her thoughts on the matter are pretty close to my own (though not quite - I'm a little less sympathetic towards Pax in light of the Garcia article that inspired this thread). This may be posted elsewhere, I'm not sure.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/slezak/cst-spt-carol27.html


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

This is kind of what a lot of us thought it was. The diagnosis makes a lot of sense given Eddy's rapid weight loss last year. I think even Sloth was all over this one back when it first happened.

Hopefully Eddy has sworn them off now and is settling for good old fashioned work, not even hard work, but at least work. I'm not personally of the belief that Eddy has an Oliver Miller type weight problem. Even when he was overweight he was still quick off his feet. The only thing that his weight hurt was his stamina. Which, even Yao Ming has stamina problems.

I don't know about the rest of you, but this story makes me feel better, because at the end of the day it is good news about Eddy's long term health. I'm tired of all this Eddy will die on the floor talk.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Which, even Yao Ming has stamina problems.


OT obviously, but Yao has been playing basketball for what seems like about 350 days per year the last few years, and on multiple continents. He's more than entitled to have stamina issues in my book.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

ViciousFlogging said:


> OT obviously, but Yao has been playing basketball for what seems like about 350 days per year the last few years, and on multiple continents. He's more than entitled to have stamina issues in my book.


You would think that much ball would increase your stamina though. If Curry played as much as Yao, he wouldn't need caffeine pills to stay slim.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Is it too bold and rash of me to say that this whole heart episode was Eddy Curry's fault from the beginning? This is, of course, based on the assumption that Cannom's very confident diagnosis is correct. Sounds to me that Curry can't keep himself in shape, so he stocked up on caffienated diet pills in a contract year hoping to score it big. I may be inclined to believe Cannom at this point simply because his statements make more sense than anything I've heard so far. And although I wish Eddy the best, I'm starting to have a little less sympathy for him. People know the risks of using Ephedrine-like supplements.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> You would think that much ball would increase your stamina though. If Curry played as much as Yao, he wouldn't need caffeine pills to stay slim.


 Not to turn this thread into a discussion of Yao's stamina, but no, playing that much ball is counterproductive. It's the same as running a marathon every week, lifting weights every day or playing 24 football games a year. Your body doesn't have enough time to recuperate.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> You would think that much ball would increase your stamina though. If Curry played as much as Yao, he wouldn't need caffeine pills to stay slim.


But when you're playing as much as Yao, you never, ever get a chance to refresh and rest your aching joints. That takes a toll. It's tough to say whether Yao would stay fresh deeper into games and the season if he had at least a few weeks off throughout a year.


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## charlietyra (Dec 1, 2002)

I have kept my mouth shut about this whole matter but I feel I finally need to chip in my 2 cents worth. In my opinion:

1. The Bulls had no intention of keeping Curry long term. He is just not Skiles' kind of player. "Not the right jib" as some on this board might say. His defense is suspect and his rebounding is below average for a guy his size.

2. Pax blew this whole thing out of proportion so as to sabotage Curry's market value. He wanted to sign him on the cheap. With an attractive contract it would have been easy to deal him and get value in return.

3. However, Pax went too far. I have been a practicing attorney for many years and knew the law was on Curry's side in his refusal to take the test. Who was advising Pax on this issue? If it was a lawyer he/she should be sued for malpractice. Federal and state privacy laws are on the side of the player (i.e. the employee) on this issue. I don't see how the CBA would override the law either. 

4. What Pax succeeded in doing was to (a) piss off Curry, and (b) devalue him so that no team would offer anything of value for him. End result, FA with nothing in return for the investment the Bulls put into Curry. 

5. Curry may not have lived up to his promise but he is still young and provides some offense for the starting five. As indicated above, Curry has weaknesses but this fiasco will set this team back a couple of years. I can't believe how incompetent Pax has been on this.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Is it too bold and rash of me to say that this whole heart episode was Eddy Curry's fault from the beginning? This is, of course, based on the assumption that Cannom's very confident diagnosis is correct. Sounds to me that Curry can't keep himself in shape, so he stocked up on caffienated diet pills in a contract year hoping to score it big. I may be inclined to believe Cannom at this point simply because his statements make more sense than anything I've heard so far. And although I wish Eddy the best, I'm starting to have a little less sympathy for him. People know the risks of using Ephedrine-like supplements.


I strongly doubt caffeine is the main cause of this. There are many people who probably get a similar amount of caffeine, as Curry did from those in caffeine pills, simply from drinking 3 cans of coke per day. That's a ton of caffeine right there. 

Furthermore, how is he to know that caffeine may exacerbate heart problems? There's no public documentation on this that I'm aware of. 

Finally, please don't equate ephedrine and caffeine. They are two completely different substances that are often name-dropped in tandem because both are used to lose weight. One has been banned by the FDA because it may have caused deaths. One is ingested daily by millions of people.

In short, I strongly disagree that Eddy Curry has any fault in this because he took caffeine. Perhaps his poor eating/exercise habits, but not caffeine.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Isn't it me, or doesn't caffeine significantly increase blood pressure and heart rate in certain doses? I don't think the effect on the cardiovascular system is an unknown.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Isn't it me, or doesn't caffeine significantly increase blood pressure and heart rate in certain doses? I don't think the effect on the cardiovascular system is an unknown.


Yes, and caffeine was presented by the Bulls physicians as a possible cause of Curry's arrhythmia at the April press conference.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Also, doesn't caffeine just give a stimulant and a boost of energy in high doses. I really doubt caffeine is used to lose weight, I'd think it'd be the contrary. But honestly, taking those pills are probaly no different than drinking a Red Bull before a game or whatever.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

sloth said:


> Also, doesn't caffeine just give a stimulant and a boost of energy in high doses. I really doubt caffeine is used to lose weight, I'd think it'd be the contrary. But honestly, taking those pills are probaly no different than drinking a Red Bull before a game or whatever.



Actually, caffeine has been a common active ingredient in diet supplements for years and years and years. 

Caffeine = Stimulant

Stimulant = Appetite Suppressant


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> I strongly doubt caffeine is the main cause of this. There are many people who probably get a similar amount of caffeine, as Curry did from those in caffeine pills, simply from drinking 3 cans of coke per day. That's a ton of caffeine right there.
> 
> Furthermore, how is he to know that caffeine may exacerbate heart problems? There's no public documentation on this that I'm aware of.


It sounds to me that Cannom is attributing most, if not all, of Eddy's arrhythmia to caffeinated supplements. If that's correct, then this whole thing is on Eddy. I'm not saying he deserved to go through any this, but it certainly is something that could've been prevented if he's right.



> Finally, please don't equate ephedrine and caffeine. They are two completely different substances that are often name-dropped in tandem because both are used to lose weight. One has been banned by the FDA because it may have caused deaths. One is ingested daily by millions of people.
> 
> In short, I strongly disagree that Eddy Curry has any fault in this because he took caffeine. Perhaps his poor eating/exercise habits, but not caffeine.


I'm aware that they aren't the same, my bad. I do know that Ephredine has an intense "caffeinated" effect on the heart, though. Regardless, relying on caffeine supplements too much has it's risks. I can only comment so much on Eddy's case because we don't know the extent of his use. But this definitely puts a dent in the belief that this was out of Eddy's hands and something he couldn't control. If this situation rooted from his use of appetite suppressors, then Eddy deserves some blame. That's all.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> Actually, caffeine has been a common active ingredient in diet supplements for years and years and years.
> 
> Caffeine = Stimulant
> 
> Stimulant = Appetite Suppressant


I've never found Caffeine to be an appetite suppressant, and I drink like 3 cans of Coke a day, it actually makes me want food more. But the best appetite suppressant is a intensive workout.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

charlietyra said:


> I have kept my mouth shut about this whole matter but I feel I finally need to chip in my 2 cents worth. In my opinion:
> 
> 1. The Bulls had no intention of keeping Curry long term. He is just not Skiles' kind of player. "Not the right jib" as some on this board might say. His defense is suspect and his rebounding is below average for a guy his size.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you have said. I have felt that Pax's statement of We'll Match Anything and the whole Eddy/Bulls Organization Heart Issue was to lower his value. However, we would not be able to sign Eddy that cheap (if that was our goal). If the majority of the physicians told myself that I had no more health issues as long as I took the necessary precautions, there would be no reason for Eddy to not take the QO and go for the MAX next year. The Bulls would have only been able to keep Eddy if they offered Tyson like money or more.

The thing I fear the most is that we have burnt all lines of communication, in which he will not consider coming back to Chicago after this upcoming season. The way I see it: We lost the #4 pick of the 2001 draft and the #2 pick of the 2003 draft for nothing. If Pax wanted to keep Eddy long term, it was only if we could get him dirt cheap. That was not going to happen in a league where few Trees are among shrubs. If Pax was not going to keep Eddy long term, we should have gotten rid of him last year. 

We will definitely realize the difference this year. 

Do people really think Songalia and Allen will replace Eddy? Malik Allen? Are you kidding me? Songalia is decent, but no way will he ignite our offense like Eddy did. 

In a perfect world, everyone would be back, and our core be kept together for a long time.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

sloth said:


> I've never found Caffeine to be an appetite suppressant, and I drink like 3 cans of Coke a day, it actually makes me want food more. But the best appetite suppressant is a intensive workout.



I appreciate your experience, but I'll stick with the medical facts on this one. 

Also, the caffeine in supplements would be much more than 3 cans of Coke spread throughout the day most likely, so it may feel different to you in higher doses.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

sloth said:


> I've never found Caffeine to be an appetite suppressant, and I drink like 3 cans of Coke a day, it actually makes me want food more. But the best appetite suppressant is a intensive workout.


Any caffeinated soft drink that has high amounts of sugar, such as Coke, will probably make you want food more, but it's not the caffeine but rather the monosaccharides, or simple carbs/sugar. This is why the power-protein and South Beach diets forbid or at least severly restrict carb intake; carbs increase appetite.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

sloth said:


> I've never found Caffeine to be an appetite suppressant, and I drink like 3 cans of Coke a day, it actually makes me want food more. But the best appetite suppressant is a intensive workout.


High caffeine consumption can also have negative side effects, including nausea from increased stomach acid secretion, muscle tremors, *heart palpitations*, insomnia, anxiety, and headache. However, these side effects are mostly a concern for people who are not used to consuming caffeine on a regular basis or for people who exceed their usual dose.

Caffeine is also a powerful stimulant--one that most students are very familiar with! It is found in coffee, tea, many soft drinks, chocolate, coffee-flavored ice cream, yogurt, and candy, some over-the-counter medications, and *many dietary supplements marketed for increased energy and fat loss.* It is often disguised in herbal products under the names “gotu kola, kola nut, guarana seed, or green tea extract.” All of these herbs contain caffeine.

What about caffeine taken alone? Caffeine, when taken alone, has a slight thermogenic effect *and a slight appetite-suppressing effect*. But, it does NOT appear to have any significant effect on weight or fat loss when it’s taken without ephedrine. However, taking caffeine one hour before exercise, does seem to enhance endurance. 


http://www.snac.ucla.edu/pages/Diet_Nutrition/Dietary_supplements.htm
__________________

There's a lot of info on caffeine and ephedra in there, about 2/3 of the way down the page under the "Fat Burners" heading.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Yeah, I don't believe Eddy was taking the caffeine supplements, drinks whatever it was for weight loss. Probaly just for more energy. He would probaly take a Red Bull or whatever before a game and then one at half time? Something kind of like that, so he would have more energy. But if the team restricts those types of drinks, he may have taken a pill to be more discrete. But none the less, I don't believe this is linked much to his weight loss, I think he just wanted an energy boost so he could perform better in games. But first, we have to know how much he was taking. And if they knew this back in April, well dang, that sucks that we didn't have Eddy for the playoffs over something as trivial as this, we really had a team, we could have rocked the East....up until the Heat beat us in 5 or 6 games....but still, I think if the Heat fluked, we were pretty much as good as last years Pistons.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

sloth said:


> Yeah, I don't believe Eddy was taking the caffeine supplements, drinks whatever it was for weight loss. Probaly just for more energy.



Don't you think the dramatic weight loss before the season offers at least circumstantial evidence to the contrary?


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> Don't you think the dramatic weight loss before the season offers at least circumstantial evidence to the contrary?


No.

A. Some people gain weight fast, and lose it fast, I believe Eddy to be one of these people.

B. The newspapers over exaggerated his weight, he was probaly only 300ish, if not less.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

sloth said:


> No.
> 
> A. Some people gain weight fast, and lose it fast, I believe Eddy to be one of these people.
> 
> B. The newspapers over exaggerated his weight, he was probaly only 300ish, if not less.



Sure. That could be the case. However, I think on balance it is more likely that supplements were involved than not. Eddy got into better shape than we'd ever seen him that summer. 

I don't know what info we have to support position B.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/skiles_call_041019.html

*Q: Can you talk about Eddy Curry? *

*Skiles:* Eddy has had, what I would call, a great summer. He is in the best shape he has ever been in his life. As a result of that he can change ends. He had a couple of defensive games where it’s the best defense I’ve seen him play since I’ve been the coach since last December. He has great hands, feet; he can score and *his weaknesses have been on the defensive end and conditioning *and he’s really worked hard to get those up.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Caffeine is definately used in diet supplements to help people lose weight. It's terribly unhealthy for a person to lose 25 pounds in anything less than 3 months - and that's pushing the envelope.

Everything I know about the situation is he was criticized by the media, his coach, and his GM for his poor conditioning and his weight. He showed up for camp in the best shape of his careeer. 

What I can't say for sure is that he looked to get some help from a bottle of pills, with it being his contract year and all.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Didn't Eddy ever watch Saved By the Bell growing up? If he had, he would have known how bad caffeine pills can be.


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## remlover (Jan 22, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Didn't Eddy ever watch Saved By the Bell growing up? If he had, he would have known how bad caffeine pills can be.


"I'm sooo exciteddd"


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Caffeine is definately used in diet supplements to help people lose weight. It's terribly unhealthy for a person to lose 25 pounds in anything less than 3 months - and that's pushing the envelope.


Not if you're grossly overweight or have much excess fat. 

That said, I remember thinking that the weight requirement imposed by Paxson seemed arbitrary and pointless. Weight is important, but there are 300 pound defensive tackles with superb conditioning in the NFL.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> Not if you're grossly overweight or have much excess fat.
> 
> That said, I remember thinking that the weight requirement imposed by Paxson seemed arbitrary and pointless. Weight is important, but there are 300 pound defensive tackles with superb conditioning in the NFL.


It wasn't so much about his weight, persay. More just about having him set a goal to where he could get his conditioning to where it needed to be; the weight just typically goes along with it. I mean, if Eddy was playing at around 300 lbs in 03-04 w/ poor conditioning, then surely having him in great conditioning would put him right around 280-285, right?


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Sure. That could be the case. However, I think on balance it is more likely that supplements were involved than not. Eddy got into better shape than we'd ever seen him that summer.
> 
> I don't know what info we have to support position B.


 Well, if caffeine was such an effective fat burner, than why isn't it more widely used? Why aren't there numerous studies showing this? 

For example, ECA fat burners (ephedrine-caffeine-aspirin) were used fairly widely by bodybuilders and people looking to lose weight. After ephedrine was banned, the sale of those supplements dropped drastically-- the ephedra provided the main kick for those supplements. Once it was gone, the supplement was no longer nearly as effective as it had been. From what I've read (and I like to think that I've read extensively about nutrition), caffeine simply doesn't have a strong, or even medium, effect on weight loss. It's a powerful substance, but not for producing weight loss. 

I strongly believe that Eddy lost weight due to a low carb diet. There were various reports of him using that diet last year.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

rwj333 said:


> Not if you're grossly overweight or have much excess fat.
> 
> That said, I remember thinking that the weight requirement imposed by Paxson seemed arbitrary and pointless. Weight is important, but there are 300 pound defensive tackles with superb conditioning in the NFL.


I felt the same way. I never thought Eddy's weight was exactly the problem. You can be thin and be in poor basketball shape. Eddy can be heavier, he just needs to be able to stay out on the floor longer.

Though, even though he was slimmer, it's not like Skiles was playing him a ton of minutes last year anyways.

I just never thought Eddy was an Oliver Miller or even Shaq in terms of weight. He had baby fat, but he was also fast up and down the floor, and very quick. I guess kind of like Robert Traylor, but Eddy has never even been that big, but it's the same sort of principle in terms of how Eddy is quick even when he's big. In fact at times I thought the heavier Eddy more effective because he could clear more space for his hook shot.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

rwj333 said:


> Well, if caffeine was such an effective fat burner, than why isn't it more widely used? Why aren't there numerous studies showing this?
> 
> For example, ECA fat burners (ephedrine-caffeine-aspirin) were used fairly widely by bodybuilders and people looking to lose weight. After ephedrine was banned, the sale of those supplements dropped drastically-- the ephedra provided the main kick for those supplements. Once it was gone, the supplement was no longer nearly as effective as it had been. From what I've read (and I like to think that I've read extensively about nutrition), caffeine simply doesn't have a strong, or even medium, effect on weight loss. It's a powerful substance, but not for producing weight loss.
> 
> I strongly believe that Eddy lost weight due to a low carb diet. There were various reports of him using that diet last year.



It's not a fat burner, it's an appetite suppressant, like any stimulant.

(There's a reason coke fiends are so skinny.)

(_see_, Kate Moss)


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> You can't be sure of this, though. I'm not sure most doctors would agree to an article like this. Maybe he called Estes and Maron as well and they declined. Anyway, it's a good scoop, clearly one of the most informative and important articles Garcia has written -- even if it just clarifies one opinion.


Apparently, Maron had no problem in talking with the Daily Southtown, as today's articles show.

So I'm sticking with my "didn't bother calling the Dr who actually ordered the DNA test" theory when it comes to Garcia.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

After re-reading the title and seeing how Cannom thinks Eddy was having magnesium deficiency, I wonder if he's recommended this at all:










I worked at a running store for a few years, and this stuff was great for muscle recovery, cramp prevention, and the body's ability to retain water. Didn't know it could help maintain a normal heartbeat though.


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## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

remlover said:


> "I'm sooo exciteddd"



Dammit, stole my post!

:laugh:


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

bullsville said:


> Apparently, Maron had no problem in talking with the Daily Southtown, as today's articles show.
> 
> So I'm sticking with my "didn't bother calling the Dr who actually ordered the DNA test" theory when it comes to Garcia.


Yeah, I didn't think he would talk. You were right. 

Maybe he felt that he had to defend himself after Cannom's article.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...s_curry,1,797148.story?coll=cs-home-headlines
> 
> *Doc: No need for DNA test
> Cannom says request not routine; Curry fine with 1-year deal*
> ...




Some interesting medical data was released yesterday on the link between caffeine and heart attacks.



> Individuals who have a genetic variation associated with slower caffeine metabolism appear to have an increased risk of non-fatal heart attack associated with higher amounts of coffee intake, according to a study in the March 8 issue of JAMA.
> --
> "In summary, consistent with most case-control studies, we found that increased coffee intake is associated with an increased risk of nonfatal MI. The association between coffee and MI was found only among individuals with the slow CYP1A2*1F allele, which impairs caffeine metabolism, suggesting that caffeine plays a role in the association," the authors conclude.


I just thought that it was interesting given that the big guy was a supplement user, and some/many of those offer a megadose of caffeine. Its a non-fatal heartattack, but in the future, the leagues may ban the supplements for the athletes or less likely, scan for the gene to see if the supplements would potentially affect the athletes heart.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-03/jaaj-ccl030206.php
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/295/10/1135


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