# Marcus Banks is the odd man out



## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

The trade for Payton looks like a brilliant move thus far for the Celtics. He solidifies what has been a problem position for the C's for a long time.

Now Doc Rivers has the luxury of putting a competition together for the second point point guard spot. He is on record as saying that he will not have a three man rotation at the backup point. He is using the preseason as an evaluation of who should get that second string point position.

It looks as if Jiri Welsh and Delonte West are a nice back court combination off the bench. Both are tall, good ball handlers with good court vision, excellent team concept and good defense. And most of all both can spread the court and shoot the lights out.

So it looks as if Marcus Banks will be the odd man out. He is a terrific athlete. We all know that. But he has not learned how to set up plays and make teammates better. He was already traded once so it doesn't take a genius to know that the C's management sees him as expendable.

I expect Boston to look for teams with point guard trouble for a trade once the season starts.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

I doubt Marcus has any trade value right now...it's one thing not to break out of the gate your rookie season but to look like a deer in headlights your 2nd season when you were the 13th overall pick and a college senior...not good


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## Dakota (Aug 18, 2002)

Marcus will defiantly find some playing time during this season. I think his best ability is the way he can play defensively. There are not many in this league that have the kind of on-the-ball defensive pressure that he posesses. Just because of that ability I think he can earn about 15 minutes a night. 


Also, in my eyes Jiri can play the 3 position better than he can play the 2, so that will do the Celtics more justice by placing him there. Marcus can run the point, Delonte the two, and Jiri the three while they sport a Al Jefferson and Kendrick Perkins frontcourt. That would be a great young and explosive second unit. I would love to watch that unit go out on the floor each and every night getting better. 



Paul Pierce!!!!! Go Celts.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*You won't see that unit this season...*

And if you do, Marcus won't be at the point. In the times so far where Doc has used Marcus and Delonte together, DELONTE has been the point guard. That is because Banks is a turnover machine. True, his defensive intensity is awesome, but the problem is on offense.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Dakota</b>!
> Marcus will defiantly find some playing time during this season. I think his best ability is the way he can play defensively. There are not many in this league that have the kind of on-the-ball defensive pressure that he posesses. Just because of that ability I think he can earn about 15 minutes a night.
> 
> 
> ...


Where do you put Tony Allen in that lineup?


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## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

*Boston Globe article*

check this story if you have not seen it:

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2004/10/20/logjam_at_the_point/

This leads me to believe that Marcus is going to be the odd man out. Doc is not looking to use a three man back up point guard rotation. He wants one definate back up point guard.

Delonte and Jiri are working out better in the backcourt.

Marcus at this time would be a defensive stopper and situation player or a guy who gets minutes when the point guards are in foul trouble. That is not enough playing time for a lotto pick.

Marcus still has potential and is a freak athletically. I think someone will be interested and a deal will take place. I know Danny tried to make Marcus feel welcome back in Boston after the trade but the fact is that Celtic management gave up on him. Doc has said he is not his kind of point. Marcus is on the way out.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Welsch & West as a back court? Is Doc planning on playing Pierce & Payton 44 minutes a night? Who the heck will be bringing the ball upcourt with West & Welsch out there? They're terrible ballhandlers. And dog awful penetrators. 

No need for sexually explicit comments like that. ---agoo


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## ZWW (Jan 17, 2004)

So was that comment about Banks really liking Danny Ainge or whatever it was just a bunch of B.S.?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Personal comments like this should be sent via PM, like the one you will receive regarding this comment. ---agoo


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

I also think Banks is probably on his way out. His primary strength is definitely man on man defense, and the Celtics already have a guy who can guard PGs in Tony Allen, who provides an amazing combination of quickness, length and smarts defensively at a very young age. West is poised to be the Celtics' future PG, and Jiri certainly knows how to handle the ball and dish. Payton speaks for himself, though he's a one year solution (for now). 

With that all said, the publication that originally broke the Celtics-Lakers trade back in August (Hoopsworld) says that a Luke Walton for Marcus Banks deal is on the table, and the only thing keeping it from happening is whether the Lakers want to give up on Tierre Brown (NBDL PG) or trade Luke Walton period. 

Knowing that Doc prizes basketball IQ and passing ability and knowing how badly the Lakers need a defensive PG that can run the break, this deal makes plenty of sense for both teams involved. Hell, Luke Walton is the son of former Celtic great Bill Walton, that's gotta count for something!


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> I also think Banks is probably on his way out. His primary strength is definitely man on man defense, and the Celtics already have a guy who can guard PGs in Tony Allen, who provides an amazing combination of quickness, length and smarts defensively at a very young age. West is poised to be the Celtics' future PG, and Jiri certainly knows how to handle the ball and dish. Payton speaks for himself, though he's a one year solution (for now).
> 
> With that all said, the publication that originally broke the Celtics-Lakers trade back in August (Hoopsworld) says that a Luke Walton for Marcus Banks deal is on the table, and the only thing keeping it from happening is whether the Lakers want to give up on Tierre Brown (NBDL PG) or trade Luke Walton period.
> ...


I'd quite like to have Luke Walton, but with Jiri Welsch, Ricky Davis, Paul Pierce, Tony Allen, Justin Reed, and Walter McCarty already on the books, where is there room for him at small forward? Can Walton play PF? If he can, I'd love to throw him in there with Raef, Kendrick, Al, and Googs. As much as I like Banks, I think that he will never reach his potential with what we have in place, as he has clearly been set as the odd man out.

Also, I wouldn't consider Bill Walton a "Celtic great." He was great, but not a Celtic great.


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## Locke (Jun 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd quite like to have Luke Walton, but with Jiri Welsch, Ricky Davis, Paul Pierce, Tony Allen, Justin Reed, and Walter McCarty already on the books, where is there room for him at small forward? Can Walton play PF? If he can, I'd love to throw him in there with Raef, Kendrick, Al, and Googs. As much as I like Banks, I think that he will never reach his potential with what we have in place, as he has clearly been set as the odd man out.
> ...


Walton might be able to get away with playing some backup PF in the eastern conference as long as he doesn't have to guard guys like Jermaine O'Neal and Rasheed Wallace. Phil Jackson had him playing some PF for the Lakers last year but it was only in short bursts.

The Walton-for-Banks trade really makes sense for both teams, and I don't see any reason why they shouldn't pull the trigger on it.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

Because they already have more than enough people at SF, like was said. Get over it, you lost Banks, you're not getting him back, unless you're willing to offer something the Celtics could use, and another SF isn't that. And no, Walton isn't playing any PF, he's a SF and nothing else.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Locke</b>!
> The Walton-for-Banks trade really makes sense for both teams, and I don't see any reason why they shouldn't pull the trigger on it.


It makes no sense for Boston, they already have someone that does everything Luke does and more, Welsch (OK, so he doesn't rebound as well, but his offense is much better). Also, Payton is a one year player here, he'll be leaving after this season. Boston needs a safety cushion for the future. West doesn't look like the point guard of the future, he looks more like the Erick Strickland of the future. If they unload Banks now they go into next season without a point guard, which means that they'll either be overdrafting a point guard in panic or overpaying for one (whether in trade or free agency).


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

The Lakers shouldn't be getting Banks unless they give up Brian Cook and/or Sasha Vujacic. Too bad that they can't give up a first-round pick for two more years.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Celts11</b>!
> The Lakers shouldn't be getting Banks unless they give up Brian Cook and/or Sasha Vujacic. Too bad that they can't give up a first-round pick for two more years.


I'd MUCH rather have Luke Walton than Brian Cook! Brian Cook is a waste. Vujacic I would like but the Lakers were set on him they won't give him up, he's very much like Jiri and can play both guard positions as well. The fact is yes we have a logjam at SG & SF but that will clear itself up. Ricky or Jiri will be gone at some point soon (I hope it's Ricky and not Jiri but it will be one of them) and Walter's days in green are numbered. Tony Allen is a rookie, let's not forget that, even if he turns out good which we don't know yet he still is gonna need time to adjust. 
As for Bill Walton, he was a Celtic Great for the mere fact that he helped us win a championship and he also won NBA 6th man that year on the Celts. If Walton hadn't been on the bench that year we probably wouldn't have won the championship that year, he meant a LOT to that team and gave us a totally different look and an Awesome weapon off the bench. 
Marcus Banks is not insurance for next year because Marcus Banks has not proven he can lead this team for 15 minutes a game never mind 35. It's better to get something decent for him now than wait until he hold no value at all, which could happen soon.


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## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>whiterhino</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd MUCH rather have Luke Walton than Brian Cook! Brian Cook is a waste. Vujacic I would like but the Lakers were set on him they won't give him up, he's very much like Jiri and can play both guard positions as well. The fact is yes we have a logjam at SG & SF but that will clear itself up. Ricky or Jiri will be gone at some point soon (I hope it's Ricky and not Jiri but it will be one of them) and Walter's days in green are numbered. Tony Allen is a rookie, let's not forget that, even if he turns out good which we don't know yet he still is gonna need time to adjust.
> ...


Amen!!!

I don't worry about the "log jam" Walton would bring at the small forward. Walton is very versatile. He led the Pac 10 in assists one season. People get too caught up in having a 5 and a 4 and a 3 and a 2 and a 1. What a team needs is 5 good players on the floor at the same time. Walton is best suited for the small forward but he could easily fill some minutes at two other positions. As for not needing him because the Celtics already have Jiri, that is silly. A team can not have too many guys like Jiri and Walton who are smart and can do so much on the floor.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>whiterhino</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd MUCH rather have Luke Walton than Brian Cook! Brian Cook is a waste. Vujacic I would like but the Lakers were set on him they won't give him up, he's very much like Jiri and can play both guard positions as well.


I don't want either of them. One's an end of the bench body and the other guy a tenth man in an NBA rotation. Thanks, but no thanks. The Lakers can keep them both.




> The fact is yes we have a logjam at SG & SF but that will clear itself up. Ricky or Jiri will be gone at some point soon (I hope it's Ricky and not Jiri but it will be one of them) and Walter's days in green are numbered. Tony Allen is a rookie, let's not forget that, even if he turns out good which we don't know yet he still is gonna need time to adjust.


Wait, you want to unload Ricky Davis to create playing time for Luke frigging Walton? When did the draft lottery become the goal? Walton sucks. He's too short and soft to play the four and too slow to play the three. The stronger guys push him around like he's Raef's weaker brother and the quick guys get around him with ease. Please, no frigging thanks.



> As for Bill Walton, he was a Celtic Great for the mere fact that he helped us win a championship and he also won NBA 6th man that year on the Celts. If Walton hadn't been on the bench that year we probably wouldn't have won the championship that year, he meant a LOT to that team and gave us a totally different look and an Awesome weapon off the bench.


So should the C's go out and sign Havlicek's kid? 



> Marcus Banks is not insurance for next year because Marcus Banks has not proven he can lead this team for 15 minutes a game never mind 35. It's better to get something decent for him now than wait until he hold no value at all, which could happen soon.


If the best you can do for Marcus Banks is Luke Walton's expiring deal and two years of Devean frigging George, he already has NEGATIVE value. Do you get that? The Lakers are offering the Celtics the chance to PAY them to take Marcus off their hands. NO frigging thanks. It's a rip-off anyway you slice it. If the entire league is waiting to steal him, and won't make a fair offer, you hold the asset, Marcus will NEVER be worth less than two end of the bench players (one with a suck contract). Never. 

Beyond that, what happens next year when Payton leaves and they have no point guards under contract? This means a desperation pick in the draft (where teams with better position hold Boston up to acquire a point guard) and that the Travis Bests of the world are demanding above market pay because Boston has a void at the position. Whether or not you like Banks his presence on the roster improves their position next offseason. I mean, is unloading Marcus really worth a player even worse than Yogi Stewart?


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*I'd take Luke in a heartbeat*

In last year's NBA Finals, he was one of the best Lakers on the floor.

Luke for Marcus sounds pretty good right now to me. I mean, Marcus has played a grand total of about 32 seconds in the past two games for a reason.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ehmunro</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't want either of them. One's an end of the bench body and the other guy a tenth man in an NBA rotation. Thanks, but no thanks. The Lakers can keep them both.
> ...


Don't quote me if you can't do it correctly:upset: :upset: :upset: Did I say anything about unloading Ricky to make room for Luke Walton???:devil: NO I DID NOT...what I said (Please read carefully this time) was that EITHER Ricky or Jiri are gonna be gone soon, this has nothing to do with Walton or Banks....the fact is both Jiri & Ricky are starters and we have room for only one of them to start and we need help in other areas so ONE of them will be gone soon and my preference is that it's Ricky for very numerous reasons. ALSO, no one said Devean George in this conversation but you, we don't want Devean George, he's not part of this discussion, if something had to be thrown in to make salaries match it would not be DeVean George. 

You implying that Marcus improves our position is stupid! It doesn't improve anything, if GP is a one year fix and we make no trade for another PG we are going to be desperate in the draft and free agency for a PG regardless because Marcus Banks CANNOT play PG for us, his days are numbered for a reason, he's a TERRIBLE PG. Delonte West, whom everyone on this board knows I'm critical of in the PG position, is already better than Marcus Banks...that speaks volumes because Delonte West is not ready to be a PG anywhere but he's better than Banks by a million light years.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*Current Celtics PG depth chart*

(Found on a piece of paper in Doc's desk drawer)

1. Gary Payton
2. Jiri Welsch
3. Delonte West
4. (sign) Dana Barros
5. I come out of retirement
6. Cooz comes out of retirement
7. Marcus Banks
8. (sign) Omar Cook


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## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

*Re: Current Celtics PG depth chart*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> (Found on a piece of paper in Doc's desk drawer)
> 
> 1. Gary Payton
> ...


I am not sure that Doc thinks that highly of Marcus. 
I think you forgot the possibility of Dennis Johnson or Tiny Archibald at the point.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>whiterhino</b>!
> 
> 
> Don't quote me if you can't do it correctly:upset: :upset: :upset: Did I say anything about unloading Ricky to make room for Luke Walton???:devil: NO I DID NOT...what I said (Please read carefully this time) was that EITHER Ricky or Jiri are gonna be gone soon, this has nothing to do with Walton or Banks....the fact is both Jiri & Ricky are starters and we have room for only one of them to start and we need help in other areas so ONE of them will be gone soon and my preference is that it's Ricky for very numerous reasons. ALSO, no one said Devean George in this conversation but you, we don't want Devean George, he's not part of this discussion, if something had to be thrown in to make salaries match it would not be DeVean George.
> ...


Marcus Banks can not be traded for Luke Walton because both teams are over the cap and Marcus makes twice Walton's salary. The ACTUAL deal the Lakers are offering is the one I mentioned, Walton & George for Yogi & Banks, and it's a suck deal, no matter which way you cut it. Walton had about fifteen effective minutes on offense in the finals (because his defense was awful). Not so coincidentally it was the fifteen minutes Detroit ignored him. The moment they paid the least attention to him he vanished on offense. He isn't any good. If the best that you can do is Luke Walton, you're already getting nothing, so there's no point in trading Banks. Especially when their point guard of the present is a player that made the exact transition that Banks is facing. Unlike Walton, Banks _might_ be a decent NBA starter, Walton will never be anything more than an end of the rotation guy. And he isn't even a tradeable asset as he makes 600k on an expiring deal. A year of playing with Payton and Banks might improve enough to be tradeable. A year of Walton and they've lost an asset, gained a liability (George) and are left overpaying to acquire both a starter and (likely) a backup. It's a loser of a trade for the Celtics. No upside and all downside. If the Lakers want to talk Butler, that's one thing, but they can have Cook & Walton.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

ehmunro, you're blowing Walton's defensive deficiencies way out of proportion. His defense has improved and he's about average now, and can still get better. 

Overall, the guy is a baller. Can shoot the ball well, is probably the best passing forward in the game not named LeBron, and probably has the highest court IQ in the game, period, save for Vlade Divac. He single handedly came in off the bench and won 4 regular season games for the Lakers last year with his passing, and of course sparked OT for Game 2 of the Finals as well. He did all of this as bench player. I wouldn't expect you to know, you probably didn't catch any of those games except for the Finals. But Game 2 was hardly an aberration for Walton, that's just how he plays. 

He'd be an extremely valuable role player for the Celtics. Whereas Banks is useless for the Celtics because his defensive skills are duplicated by the very capable Tony Allen and the Celtics already have their starting PG of the future in Delonte West (West can't play any other position, he's much too short). 

And yes, you can trade Walton for Banks straight up, being over the cap has nothing to do with it. I believe the CBA allows straight up swaps of players under standard rookie contracts, regardless of actual amount. Walton and Banks are on rookie contracts still. Either way, the Lakers can offer cash to get it under the required 15%, if there is no such standard rookie contract clause. So no, George and Yogi don't have to be included in the deal, they're just contracts both teams want to dump.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

And Butler? Give me a break, Butler's 10 times more proven than Banks is. Banks fills one specific need for the Lakers, a need the Celtics can do without since they have Tony Allen. What the Celtics want is a high IQ player, Rivers said as much just yesterday. Walton is literally as good as it gets.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Give me a break, you just want the Lakers to steal Banks for free. The Celtics don't need "high IQ" players at positions where they already have a logjam of MUCH better players than Luke frigging Walton. They need either help at the 4/5 or security at the point given that their options, aside from Banks, are a 36 year old with a broken thumb, a guy that isn't a point guard and a guy that panics and calls timeout every time opponents pressure him (which is a real disadvantage). So, unless you guys have a real point guard, and you don't, given that you're desperate to steal Banks and are relying on Atkins, there isn't a good fit for Boston. As Butler would be an actual upgrade at the 3, there's room for discussion, like you guys getting your lottery pick back. But not for a severe downgrade like Walton. And, yeah, if Jiri's the point, Walton is a severe downgrade at the three because there ain't nobody to bring the ball upcourt (last night they let Ricky do it with Jiri at the point). And, no, there is no magical exception that let's the Lakers trade second round picks with expiring deals straight up for guys making more than twice the money because they want to steal a point guard to help out Kobe. Sorry. Try again.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*munro, who are you talking about*

I know it is not Marcus Banks. Point guard? Hardly. That is why he is on the way out and why he has played 32 seconds total in the last three preseason games. The Lakers can have him for Walton. He's a good player.

Oh, and their pick is lottery protected this year. They're not going to the lottery anyway. I see the Lakers sneaking into the 7 or 8 spot.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

No, he's not, that's the point. The Lakers have zero use for Walton and have been unable to deal him for a point guard. So now they're begging Boston to take an NBA tenth man in exchange for a point guard. But, oh yeah, it involves Stewart for George, too. Meaning that the Celtics have to pay an extra five million (or, more than Banks will make over the next three years) just to unload Marcus. No frigging thanks. Really.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*Both of you guys make valid points*

If Walton is a 10th man, I'd still rather have him than Banks, who appears to be a 13th or 14th man for us. That said, I would not want to trade Stewart's trading contract at all. 

Butler, though, has looked good in preseason. We don't need Butler, but Walton in our read-and-react scheme interests me.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

What the **** is up with you guys that you want to unload Banks so badly? And WHY would you deliberately choose a worse player? Between Butler and Walton you'd RATHER have Walton? Thank god you're not the GM.

No masking. Stay calm when posting. ---agoo


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*Banks is horrible*

And is not what the Celtics need. Period.

Would I rather have Butler? Yes. Is he available? I don't know. But I would rather have both those Lakers SFs than Banks. It comes down to the fact that when he has the ball in his hands, Marcus Banks is about as smart as.....well, you.

And the fact that Delonte West will probably be a better NBA point guard, and we have Jiri Welsch who can do just as well.

You made some valid points on the contracts, etc. but I could really do without the insults. If Marcus stays, great. Physically, there are very few young players with the gifts he has, and maybe Doc Rivers can turn him into a player. If he does, he can add a Coach of the Decade award right next to his COY on the mantle.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ehmunro</b>!
> Give me a break, you just want the Lakers to steal Banks for free. The Celtics don't need "high IQ" players at positions where they already have a logjam of MUCH better players than Luke frigging Walton. They need either help at the 4/5 or security at the point given that their options, aside from Banks, are a 36 year old with a broken thumb, a guy that isn't a point guard and a guy that panics and calls timeout every time opponents pressure him (which is a real disadvantage). So, unless you guys have a real point guard, and you don't, given that you're desperate to steal Banks and are relying on Atkins, there isn't a good fit for Boston.


There's nothing to steal, Banks isn't a point guard. That should be pretty obvious from watching him play. The Lakers weren't interested in Banks for his PG "skills", they were interested in him because he can defend any PG in the league and because he can get out and run on the fast break. That's all the Lakers want out of him. And Davis has been on the block for a while, I doubt he stays with the Celtics for too long, all the more reason to get Walton.



> As Butler would be an actual upgrade at the 3, there's room for discussion, like you guys getting your lottery pick back. But not for a severe downgrade like Walton. And, yeah, if Jiri's the point, Walton is a severe downgrade at the three because there ain't nobody to bring the ball upcourt (last night they let Ricky do it with Jiri at the point).


What? Payton's going to play this season, he's going to bring the ball up. Both Jiri and West are capable of bringing the ball up, and Walton is a fine handler as a 3. 



> And, no, there is no magical exception that let's the Lakers trade second round picks with expiring deals straight up for guys making more than twice the money because they want to steal a point guard to help out Kobe. Sorry. Try again.


Both teams have trade exceptions, which allows them to swap Walton and Banks. George and Yogi don't need to be included in the deal. Sorry. Try again.



> No, he's not, that's the point. The Lakers have zero use for Walton and have been unable to deal him for a point guard. So now they're begging Boston to take an NBA tenth man in exchange for a point guard.


No, they're not. Marcus Banks isn't a point guard. You're delusional if you think otherwise. He's a role player the Celtics don't need, and can trade him for a player that actually fits the Celtics' style of play in Walton. Doc Rivers agrees with me, Banks isn't a point. 



> But, oh yeah, it involves Stewart for George, too. Meaning that the Celtics have to pay an extra five million (or, more than Banks will make over the next three years) just to unload Marcus. No frigging thanks. Really.


Please read the CBA.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> There's nothing to steal, Banks isn't a point guard. That should be pretty obvious from watching him play. The Lakers weren't interested in Banks for his PG "skills", they were interested in him because he can defend any PG in the league and because he can get out and run on the fast break. That's all the Lakers want out of him. And Davis has been on the block for a while, I doubt he stays with the Celtics for too long, all the more reason to get Walton.


Yes, he is a point. His biggest weakness is his jumpshot. That and the fact that he's had three coaches in one season here in Boston. All he really needs is time, like just about every other point coming out of college.




> What? Payton's going to play this season, he's going to bring the ball up. Both Jiri and West are capable of bringing the ball up, and Walton is a fine handler as a 3.


He's also 36 years old, he better not be playing 40m/g out there or he'll be broken down by the playoffs. Their backups will see considerable action. Jiri doesn't have a great handle, and he looks like Pete Maravich compared to West. West panics against pressure defense. He's just terrible at getting the ball up court. He isn't anything closely resembling a point guard. You can see that he has the potential to be a capable backup in two to three years, but right now? No.



> Both teams have trade exceptions, which allows them to swap Walton and Banks. George and Yogi don't need to be included in the deal. Sorry. Try again.


Really? So why is the Lakers offer predicated on George for Stewart being involved? Sorry, Charlie, that comes from you guys out on the left coast. And where did Boston get this trade exception?



> No, they're not. Marcus Banks isn't a point guard. You're delusional if you think otherwise. He's a role player the Celtics don't need, and can trade him for a player that actually fits the Celtics' style of play in Walton. Doc Rivers agrees with me, Banks isn't a point.


Doc also called Reece Gaines a future star at the point, and thought Stephen Hunter a future NBA starter. You'll pardon me if I'm a little skeptical about his talent evaluations. That's what got Doc fired in Orlando. Great coach, crappy talent evaluator. I'm not the world's biggest Ainge fan, but when I heard Doc's claim to have a say in personnel decisions, I got worried.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ehmunro</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, he is a point. His biggest weakness is his jumpshot. That and the fact that he's had three coaches in one season here in Boston. All he really needs is time, like just about every other point coming out of college.
> ...


No, he's not a point, and no his biggest weakness is NOT his jumpshot although that absolutely sucks....his biggest weakness is that all he does is turn the ball over. He NEVER looks up the floor and looking for an open man is a LAST thought for him. He has NO PG skills whatsoever. It is an absolute joke, the kid is terrible, if not for his defending ability I could very well see him out of the league after his 3rd year and even with it he could very well be. You obviosly don't watch the Celts games if you don't see how Terrible Marcus Banks is. 
As for the Lakers "stealing" Marcus for Luke Walton, steal away please because Marcus will be riding the pine on IL anyway where Luke would actually play in our rotation. At this point I'm almost ready to GIVE him away to get him off our roster so I'll definately take Luke Walton for him. 
As for the Yogi & George thing, you need to read how contracts work because you obviously have no idea.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>whiterhino</b>!
> 
> No, he's not a point, and no his biggest weakness is NOT his jumpshot although that absolutely sucks....his biggest weakness is that all he does is turn the ball over. He NEVER looks up the floor and looking for an open man is a LAST thought for him. He has NO PG skills whatsoever. It is an absolute joke, the kid is terrible, if not for his defending ability I could very well see him out of the league after his 3rd year and even with it he could very well be. You obviosly don't watch the Celts games if you don't see how Terrible Marcus Banks is.


And you obviously don't watch the game at at all if you haven't noticed that the 1980s are gone. The "pure point" has been dead for some time, GMs & coaches prefer players with well rounded games these days. Sorry to break it to you mate, but Francis, Billups, Marbury, Arenas, et al are the present. The "pure points" like Brevin Knight are riding the pine. Because distributing is their primary talent and they don't bring enough else to the table. As for Marcus he's absorbing his third offensive system in a year, and he was terribly raw when he arrived in the NBA. Devin Harris isn't ready to start in Dallas, I guess the Mavs should give up on him, right? It takes two to three years for college kids to pick up the one in the NBA. That's the reality. Giving up on Marcus after a year is downright stupid.



> As for the Lakers "stealing" Marcus for Luke Walton, steal away please because Marcus will be riding the pine on IL anyway where Luke would actually play in our rotation. At this point I'm almost ready to GIVE him away to get him off our roster so I'll definately take Luke Walton for him.


If Luke's taking minutes from Welsch, Davis, & Allen then Ainge is obviously looking to tank the season for the lottery. Luke sucks.



> As for the Yogi & George thing, you need to read how contracts work because you obviously have no idea.


Really? I don't? First, ALL the Banks for Luke things are originating with the Lakers (or by the ******** here on the Celtic board "Yeehaw, we can get us another white guy"). Second, ALL the Lakers rumors detail the trade as I outlined (so spare me your moronic lectures about how _I_ obviously don't get it). Lastly, if you're incapable of basic addition, you COULD try the Real GM trade checker, it's a wonderful tool for the mathematically challenged. Right, Marcus/Yogi for George/Luke doesn't work. You sure are a CBA master, what NBA team do you work for?


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## max powers (Aug 3, 2004)

> The "pure point" has been dead for some time


I disagree, Parker and Kidd are classical pass first, run the offense point guards. Both are top notch.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Is there a point guard named Parker other than Tony? Because Tony isn't a pass first point guard, he's a _real_ old school basketball guard. Much like Gary Payton, who's pretty well the prototype of the modern one guard. That's what GMs & coaches are looking for. They have been for some time.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ehmunro</b>!
> 
> 
> And you obviously don't watch the game at at all if you haven't noticed that the 1980s are gone. The "pure point" has been dead for some time, GMs & coaches prefer players with well rounded games these days. Sorry to break it to you mate, but Francis, Billups, Marbury, Arenas, et al are the present. The "pure points" like Brevin Knight are riding the pine. Because distributing is their primary talent and they don't bring enough else to the table. As for Marcus he's absorbing his third offensive system in a year, and he was terribly raw when he arrived in the NBA. Devin Harris isn't ready to start in Dallas, I guess the Mavs should give up on him, right? It takes two to three years for college kids to pick up the one in the NBA. That's the reality. Giving up on Marcus after a year is downright stupid.
> ...


When Marcus Banks is playing in the NBDL in a couple years because he absolutely SUCKS I'm gonna laugh my butt off at you...give me a freaking break. Oh yeah GM's totally want PG's that throw the ball away, don't pass, run with their heads down and can't hit water from a boat, yeah that's what they are looking for sure

Oh yeah and Devin Harris is a pick for flop of the year meanwhile distributing points like TJ Ford and Kirk Hinrich last year got HIGH accolades........Jameer Nelson will too, see a guy named John Stockton only retired 2 seasons ago, guess he sucked too:no:


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

> When Marcus Banks is playing in the NBDL in a couple years because he absolutely SUCKS I'm gonna laugh my butt off at you...give me a freaking break.


And when Banks turns into a capable backup point I'll be laughing at you, because you'll still be living in your parents basement dreaming of Luke Walton.



> Oh yeah and Devin Harris is a pick for flop of the year meanwhile distributing points like TJ Ford and Kirk Hinrich last year got HIGH accolades........Jameer Nelson will too, see a guy named John Stockton only retired 2 seasons ago, guess he sucked to


Hinrich is a "pure passing point"? He'd be shocked to hear it. He's a combo guard, and the very essence of what GMs want these days, one guards that can score as well as pass. Given that most good players pass well in this day and age, that skill is _less_ important in a one guard. If all that mattered was a one guard's passing skill Jason Terry would be riding the pine instead of Harris. If you _can't_ score the rock you're at a severe disadvantage. And, ummm, Nelson may make it as a backup point guard, but until he develops a consistent perimeter game he'll be riding the pine. Because he's as big a scrub as Delonte & Marcus. Oh, wait, no he's not. He's shorter and slower than either of them. Oh well.

As for Harris, did you miss Ainge's comment that he preferred West to Harris at the draft? Ainge felt it would be easier for West to develop a handle than for Harris to develop an offensive game to go with the passing. After seeing West panic under defensive pressure I'm skeptical. But, it takes two to four years for guys like that to pan out. So, as with Marcus, I'm going to cut him some slack. You should look more closely at the sheer number of converted shooting guards starting at the 1 around the league. It's the present, son. Coaches want guys that can do more than pass. If distributing the rock were all that mattered Brevin Knight would be a star and not a scrub. Both Banks and West have the potential to escape scrub status. Luke doesn't. He's a scrub.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ehmunro</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, he is a point. His biggest weakness is his jumpshot. That and the fact that he's had three coaches in one season here in Boston. All he really needs is time, like just about every other point coming out of college.


After four years of college and a year of NBA ball, Banks is 23 years old and clearly not a PG. It's not just that his shot isn't that great (actually, that's not really his main weakness), it's that he's not yet capable of making good decisions in the half court. The guy is a great defender, perhaps the best at his position in the league, and a tremendous fast break player well. But 80% of the basketball is half court, and if he plays more than 20 mpg at this stage in his career he'd be turning the ball over in the half court and he'd be clanking the majority of his shots, even his open spot up shots. 

He can definitely improve his shot, but his ability to make passes and run an offense in the half court? After 4 years of college and one in the NBA, and already 23, he'd need to make tremendous improvements over the next 2-3 years. I'm not sure he has the right attitude to do that. 

So no, he's not a PG, he's an SG in a wide 6'2" frame.



> He's also 36 years old, he better not be playing 40m/g out there or he'll be broken down by the playoffs.


Payton's one of the most durable players in the league, no matter what age he is. He'll probably end up being like a John Stockton and play until he's 40 without missing very many games. He can still easily play 35 mpg, and that's what he'll get. West and Allen can play the rest. Banks is totally useless in the Celtics' rotation unless he makes a miraculous transformation overnight. 



> Their backups will see considerable action.


No more than 13 mpg, mostly to West. That's hardly considerable. 



> Jiri doesn't have a great handle, and he looks like Pete Maravich compared to West.


Jiri has fine handles, I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion.



> West panics against pressure defense.


Is this based on one possession against the Pistons a few days ago, because that's what it sounds like. West is not that bad. 



> He's just terrible at getting the ball up court. He isn't anything closely resembling a point guard. You can see that he has the potential to be a capable backup in two to three years, but right now? No.


Of course not right now, he hasn't played a full NBA season. Let's see how he looks by April 2005. 



> Really? So why is the Lakers offer predicated on George for Stewart being involved?


Because the Lakers want to dump that last year on George's contract. However, if the Celtics refuse to take on George's contract, Banks for Walton can still be done. 



> Sorry, Charlie, that comes from you guys out on the left coast. And where did Boston get this trade exception?


I don't know, I'll find out for you though. I was told they got the exception last summer, but I'll have to check on which acquisition.



> Doc also called Reece Gaines a future star at the point, and thought Stephen Hunter a future NBA starter. You'll pardon me if I'm a little skeptical about his talent evaluations. That's what got Doc fired in Orlando. Great coach, crappy talent evaluator. I'm not the world's biggest Ainge fan, but when I heard Doc's claim to have a say in personnel decisions, I got worried.


Well OK, I'll give you that. Point is, Doc is the coach of the Boston Celtics, and if he says that they're going to play a certain way, they're going to play a certain way. And that way is high IQ, pass first open court basketball. It's not Banks basketball.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> After four years of college and a year of NBA ball, Banks is 23 years old and clearly not a PG. It's not just that his shot isn't that great (actually, that's not really his main weakness), it's that he's not yet capable of making good decisions in the half court. The guy is a great defender, perhaps the best at his position in the league, and a tremendous fast break player well. But 80% of the basketball is half court, and if he plays more than 20 mpg at this stage in his career he'd be turning the ball over in the half court and he'd be clanking the majority of his shots, even his open spot up shots.


Right, and it takes college one guards two to four years to make the transition. That's reality. Heck, it took Chauncey four years to even show that he could make the transition.



> He can definitely improve his shot, but his ability to make passes and run an offense in the half court? After 4 years of college and one in the NBA, and already 23, he'd need to make tremendous improvements over the next 2-3 years. I'm not sure he has the right attitude to do that. So no, he's not a PG, he's an SG in a wide 6'2" frame.


Actually, two years of JC & two years of UNLV, all as a one guard. But, that's a different proposition than doing it in the NBA. Players like Marcus are the reason that the NBA should bite the bullet and create a farm system. He's the sort of player that was hurt by playing college ball. 

But, whether you like it or not NBA coaches are looking for one guards with well rounded games, not pass first guys. That's reality. There is nothing wrong with Marcus' style of play, just his execution. But I'm willing to wait on that. The odds of a one guard being able to adjust to all these changes over the course of a single season are remote, at best. And Marcus, due to two years of JC ball, was very raw when he arrived. I'd prefer that he spend time playing against Payton in practise, because GP made the exact same transition that Banks has to (i.e. college combo guard to NBA one guard). I see no reason to give up on Marcus _now_ to acquire a player that they don't need that will be leaving when the year is over. It's a senseless trade any way you slice it.



> Payton's one of the most durable players in the league, no matter what age he is. He'll probably end up being like a John Stockton and play until he's 40 without missing very many games. He can still easily play 35 mpg, and that's what he'll get. West and Allen can play the rest. Banks is totally useless in the Celtics' rotation unless he makes a miraculous transformation overnight...
> 
> No more than 13 mpg, mostly to West. That's hardly considerable. Jiri has fine handles, I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion.


Jiri makes a lot of turnovers under pressure, and he's simply an awful penetrator. When he tries he tends to put his head down and charge in blind, it's painful to watch. He's better suited to the two. West has a bad handle at present, you may have heard about the Pistons game, but check out the game logs for the rest of the preseason. West does not do well when faced with backcourt pressure (the Nets beat him like a drunken whore that way). He really needs a handle. But, Ainge felt it would be easier for West to develop a handle than someone like Harris to develop a complete offensive game. I'm skeptical at present, but he could turn into a decent backup. But if he's the change of pace then they'll need a good penetrator to start.



> Well OK, I'll give you that. Point is, Doc is the coach of the Boston Celtics, and if he says that they're going to play a certain way, they're going to play a certain way. And that way is high IQ, pass first open court basketball. It's not Banks basketball.


If Doc gets to make the decisions then I'll obviously need to wait for new ownership to come along and do the right thing. Fire everyone that works for the team and start over completely. Because if Doc hasn't learned anything from his Orlando days then this is a team of also-rans. Of course, maybe that was Ainge's plan.  

Either way Luke's still a permanent scrub, and if that's all that Banks is worth at the moment, then you may as well hold on to him. Because it isn't possible for Boston to get less for him, and he doesn't cost that much money.


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## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y (Jul 14, 2002)

*IMO...*

We really do not need Marcus either this yr or next yr although if we kept him for a season he would get better and his value would go up, and also Luke is not the answer, we are already loaded at the wing spot and there is no way Luke can D up on a PF type player if he tried. With Pierce, Davis, Jiri, Allen why would we need or want Luke(yes I know his bball IQ is high) especially if his contract ends at the end of the season? Basically we lose Marcus for a 600K expiring deal??:no: 

What we need to do it shop Marcus around for maybe a middle tier first rounder(lotto protected) and a vet PG that has 1yr left on contract.If not they could just add an expiring deal that is needed to make salaries work, then we release the newly aquired and go sign a vet backup at the point. (i.e. Rod Strickland, or Howard Eisley, etc..) 

Or another possible option would be to deal Banks to New Orleans for Darrell Armstrong and their say lotto protected first.

We do it b/c it gives us a solid backup at PG while West learns in practice and garbage time, and Darrell has played in big games and has an expiring deal at seasons end.

They do it, for insurance purposes if Baron truley wants to get the heck out of NO at least they have something to fall back on, whether it be now or something relatively bright for the future.

But back on subject Marcus for Luke solves nothing! And the thought of taking on Georges contract and losing Yogi's is even worse!


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Now THAT's a sensible proposition. That's the sort of trade I could live with. Especially since N'awlins ain't making the playoffs anytime soon. I wonder if they could convince them that Blount & Banks for Magliore & Armstrong is a good deal?


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## w-h-i-t-e-b-o-y (Jul 14, 2002)

*Right...*

Dont we only wish!!


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ehmunro</b>!
> 
> 
> And when Banks turns into a capable backup point I'll be laughing at you, because you'll still be living in your parents basement dreaming of Luke Walton.


You obviously must be the one living in your parents basement since you have to resort to personal attacks when talking basketball because your "facts" are so false. Pathetic:no: 



> As for Harris, did you miss Ainge's comment that he preferred West to Harris at the draft? Ainge felt it would be easier for West to develop a handle than for Harris to develop an offensive game to go with the passing. After seeing West panic under defensive pressure I'm skeptical. But, it takes two to four years for guys like that to pan out. So, as with Marcus, I'm going to cut him some slack. You should look more closely at the sheer number of converted shooting guards starting at the 1 around the league. It's the present, son. Coaches want guys that can do more than pass. If distributing the rock were all that mattered Brevin Knight would be a star and not a scrub. Both Banks and West have the potential to escape scrub status. Luke doesn't. He's a scrub.


As for Aigne liking Harris better than West I don't give any credence to that. Aigne thought West was the 2nd best PG in a draft that included Livingston, Nelson, Telfair, Vujacic, Udrih, etc...I find it very unlikely that West will end up being 2nd best and that Harris is the best, personally I think Harris will be terrible. He also chose Banks last year and well, we all see how that goes, well other than you, Banks sucks.
As for teams wanting "well rounded" points, your decimating your own argument then by saying that because Banks is NOT rounded in any way, he can defend and that is ALL he can do. He can't shoot, he can't pass, he can't read the floor, he doesn't get anyone involved in the play, and he can't hold on to the basketball because he's a turnover machine. He's well rounded all right...roundedly bad :sour:


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>whiterhino</b>!
> 
> 
> You obviously must be the one living in your parents basement since you have to resort to personal attacks when talking basketball because your "facts" are so false. Pathetic:no:


Don't give it if you can't take it, son.





> As for Aigne liking Harris better than West I don't give any credence to that. Aigne thought West was the 2nd best PG in a draft that included Livingston, Nelson, Telfair, Vujacic, Udrih, etc...I find it very unlikely that West will end up being 2nd best and that Harris is the best, personally I think Harris will be terrible.


What in the name of all that's holy are you babbling about? What part of "As for Harris, did you miss Ainge's comment that he preferred West to Harris at the draft? Ainge felt it would be easier for West to develop a handle than for Harris to develop an offensive game to go with the passing," didn't you get? My English is pretty direct, so I'm not sure how your words above are a correction. Frankly, I'm not sure your words qualify as coherent. Not that that comes as a big surprise.



> He also chose Banks last year and well, we all see how that goes, well other than you, Banks sucks.


Yeah, that Chauncey Billups, he sucked. He turned the ball over all the time, always looked for his shot, he never looked for his team mates for gods sake. He was supposed to be the point guard, you're not supposed to score when you're the point guard, you're supposed to just pass the ball around. I'm so glad the Celtics unloaded that loser.



> As for teams wanting "well rounded" points, your decimating your own argument then by saying that because Banks is NOT rounded in any way, he can defend and that is ALL he can do. He can't shoot, he can't pass, he can't read the floor, he doesn't get anyone involved in the play, and he can't hold on to the basketball because he's a turnover machine. He's well rounded all right...roundedly bad :sour:


What part of "NBA coaches want one guards that can score the rock" didn't you get? What part of "There's nothing wrong with Marcus' style of play, simply his execution," didn't you get? Reading comprehension isn't your strong point, is it?


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## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

*Marcus is non existent*

I think it should be clear to everyone that Marcus Banks is not in the Celtics rotation this season.

He had only 6 minutes in the season opener and did nothing but play a little defense and miss a shot.

Even with Delonte West out Rivers is not playing Banks. And when West returns I expect Banks to play even less. It looks as though Welsh, West and maybe even Allen are ahead of Banks on the point guard depth chart.

It is sad when a team gives up on a second year lottery pick at the point guard spot but that is what seems to be happening.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Welsch looked pretty awful running the point as well. The backup point guard spot is going to be a real sore spot this year. Doc has an irrational preference for tall point guards, West might be (barely) tall enough to make Doc's height requirements, but he isn't anything resembling a point guard yet. I really don't want to see Doc ride Payton into the ground in order to eke out a seventh seed and first round playoff exit. As they're stuck with Doc for at least the next year Ainge may need bite the bullet and trade for a veteran one guard.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

I think it's pretty clear that we aren't going to win a championship this season, but rather will develop the young guys, ie 80% of the players we have.

Also, Banks or Perkins will go to the IL when West comes back, and as much as I love Banks, I love Perkins more and he deserves it more to be on the active roster then Banks does. Pretty sad actually, especially since he was our 13th pick.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> I think it's pretty clear that we aren't going to win a championship this season, but rather will develop the young guys, ie 80% of the players we have.
> 
> Also, Banks or Perkins will go to the IL when West comes back, and as much as I love Banks, I love Perkins more and he deserves it more to be on the active roster then Banks does. Pretty sad actually, especially since he was our 13th pick.


I would keep West on the IL. I think Banks is better than Delonte West in every aspect of the game besides shooting and possibly passing. Banks other attributes easily cover their margin. Perkins is a big-body that we need on the active roster because Gugliotta just had an awful, awful game.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Celts11</b>!
> 
> 
> I would keep West on the IL. I think Banks is better than Delonte West in every aspect of the game besides shooting and possibly passing. Banks other attributes easily cover their margin. Perkins is a big-body that we need on the active roster because Gugliotta just had an awful, awful game.


I know, and that's what I think too, but the management doesn't...and now I can't find the link, well I can but it doesn't say it.

http://celtics.bostonherald.com/celtics/view.bg?articleid=52513

Online it doesn't say it, but in the newspaper it does...

"West would have made the 12 man roster, with Perkins or Banks going on the IL..."


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

Well it better be Banks and not Kendrick because that is just ridiculous:upset: 
Once again they had McCarty playing PF. Gugliotta had a bad game but he did well in pre-sason so that could have been a fluke I hope. We need Kendrick though to be active. He deserves it and he had a good pre-season. Between GP, West, Jiri, and even Allen we don't need Banks over Kendrick.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*It will be Banks, duh*

Why do they need both West and Banks? No way. Marcus Banks has until Delonte heals to step it up, or he will be wearing civvies.

In the first two games, he hasn't shown much. There was that breathtaking spin against Philly....followed by a miss. A nice drive against Indy...followed by another miss, which thankfully we rebounded. 

Delonte is a better shooter, passer, and gets us into the offense better.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

He also has a terrible handle, and turns the ball over against pressure. Jiri has shown much the same. If Doc is determined to unload Banks, then Ainge is going to have to make a deal for a backup point guard, because Welsch & West suck right now. And if Doc is going to play Payton 38-40 minutes a night Boston is going to get steamrolled come playoff time because GP's tank will be empty.


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>whiterhino</b>!
> When Marcus Banks is playing in the NBDL in a couple years because he absolutely SUCKS I'm gonna laugh my butt off at you...give me a freaking break.


The day Marcus Banks is playing in the NBDL, I will commit seppuku.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

He played well tonight. The Celtics should deal him.


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## Jesus_Walks (Jul 11, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> He played well tonight. The Celtics should deal him.


just give him to the lakers


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## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

*Banks plays his way into the rotation*

Banks is working his way back into good graces with Doc Rivers.
Banks has not been phenomenal but he is playing well with what playing time he is getting.

Here is a nice article from the Boston Globe in regards to the Banks:

http://www.boston.com/sports/basket...2004/11/13/this_banks_providing_top_interest/

I find it interesting that Banks understands that he is one of Doc's "whipping boys".

I am happy Banks is finding some success. His short career has been so full of ups and downs. Perhaps he will finally become the point guard that Ainge envisoned when he drafted him. He should at least remain in the rotation in order to get a chance to improve.


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