# Merged:Bogut on Kobe



## thekid (Apr 3, 2003)

*Bogut on Kobe*

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/02/AR2005060201999.html


> Bogut was asked for specifics of the American attitude toward the game, what he does not like. Guess who's name came up?
> 
> "There's no one I really hate, but Kobe [Bryant] had a demeanor of being very cocky," he said. "What happened with Shaq. . . . If I had a chance to play with Shaq or Tim, if they told me to buy them groceries, I don't care, I buy them groceries. It's a gift to play with somebody like that. Kobe is probably one of the guys that, everybody knows it, he's got that cocky arrogance to him, everything has to surround around him the whole time. Otherwise, he doesn't function. That's the biggest example.
> 
> "If you're playing with Shaquille [O'Neal], a Hall of Famer, you keep your mouth shut and play if you want more rings," Bogut continued.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

andrew bogut: coming to a kobe bryant poster near you.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Sure, Duncan maybe, but Kobe's biggest gripe with Shaq was his laziness. I doubt Kobe and Duncan would have any problem playing with each other, they'd be perfect together. Kobe has a huge ego, but he works his butt off. Shaq, on the other hand, has a huge ego and is lazy. He can't even recover from everyday injuries anymore, and Kobe was pointing these things out years ago when everybody refused to believe Shaq was milking his injuries.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Kobe's cocky, but who the hell isn't cocky? I mean, NBA Players are paid to be cocky and confident as hell, otherwise what's the point? If you're Dan Dickau, you can't be an NBA player unless you believe you can guard Jason Kidd and take it to the hole against Ben Wallace. But Kobe is an ***, bringing up Shaq when he was being questioned by police was just so low.

And yes, Bogut will have Kobe's nuts in his face about 8 times the first time they play each other.


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Yeah I do not wanna be Bogut when he first plays the Lakers.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

OH MAN, I like this kid more every day!!!!


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

wow, i have a feeling players aren't going to be welcoming him with open arms. they're definitely going to go at him hard. for someone who speaks of kobe's cockiness he certainly sounds pretty cocky himself according to that article.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Debt Collector said:


> andrew bogut: coming to a kobe bryant poster near you.



:mrt: 

and when it happens it will be well deserved , he isn't in the nba yet and he is talking trash.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

omg, stfu bogut already, who the hell do u think u r. a god damn rookie (not a racist remark, but big white boys are usually busts), what gives you the rights to critizise a superstar like kobe. u have never played with him or met him extensively, you just pick up sihts from here and there. god i hate people like that.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Why does everyone think this is such a bad thing? I think its great. I love seeing Bogut come in afraid of no one. I think HE'S gonna give KOBE a thing or two to think about. This dude is tough. He doesn't back down from anyone. I've seen him get angry in a game. He takes over. You guys watch.

PS He's also right.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Debt Collector said:


> andrew bogut: coming to a kobe bryant poster near you.


Kobe Bryant: Coming to an NBA Draft Lottery near you.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



SeaNet said:


> Why does everyone think this is such a bad thing? I think its great. I love seeing Bogut come in afraid of no one. I think HE'S gonna give KOBE a thing or two to think about. This dude is tough. He doesn't back down from anyone. I've seen him get angry in a game. He takes over. You guys watch.
> 
> PS He's also right.


*Define irony: A player that hasn't played a minute of NBA basketball calling a future HOFer arrogant because of his attitude toward another future HOFer.*

This is the comment of a STAN. Trying to say anything to make him self seem so humble. This is the type of comments that weak minded fans fall for and say stuff like 'He is so humble'. We will see if he has the same respect for players that are better then he is, maybe he can get groceries for Joe Smith, Al Harrington, or Zach Randolph.

Kobe is arrogant or cocky but you think it is ok to talk about somebody you have never met or talked to...but Bogut gets it. *ANYONE* can call out Kobe and it is Okie dokie. I mean it is not like Shaq is arrogant or anything.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Sith said:


> omg, stfu bogut already, who the hell do u think u r. a god damn rookie (not a racist remark, but big white boys are usually busts), what gives you the rights to critizise a superstar like kobe. u have never played with him or met him extensively, you just pick up sihts from here and there. god i hate people like that.


Because what he sees in Kobe is entirely different than what he sees in former greats like Jordan, Magic, and Bird. He understands the history of the game. He sees that Kobe isn't a team player, is selfish, and that is the central reason his team wasn't good this year. 

Why can't he be vocal about that? I am glad he has an understanding of team basketball, and successful basketball.

He also sees that the US Olympic Team has become me-first players, and that is the reason they are taking Bronze Medals in the Olympics, where true teams are now beating them. I think that point is very well taken.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

I like him, sensible guy. :laugh:


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



disgruntledKNICKfan said:


> :mrt:
> 
> and when it happens it will be well deserved , he isn't in the nba yet and he is talking trash.


He isn't talking trash. He is talking about the right way the game is played. What Kobe Bryant did to a dynasty because of his selfishness is the wrong way to go-about the game. You play to win championships, and Kobe neglected that because of his selfishness.

Bogut, while maybe not gaining a friend in Kobe Bryant, is exhibiting the attitude that is very much lost in today's game: teamwork. You know, the quality that sets Magic, Bird, and Jordan above the rest, and made them champions.


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## Halo (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

I completely agree w/ everything Sir Patchwork said.

Calling Kobe out on being arrogant is nothing new, its makes me want to yawn. Bogut hasn't even entered the league yet and he talks like he knows Kobe personally and can say whatever the heck he wants. For someone who is calling someone out for being cocky, he isn't the definition of humble himself. Take a look in the mirror son. 

Until you've proven yourself in the league, don't bark so loud coz the bite may not follow up.


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## Cammo (May 24, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Heaven forbid Bogut tells it how it is, rather than sugar coat or fence sit like most do. Kobe is a **edited**, everyone in their right mind knows that all that Kobe is about is ME ME ME ME ME and that is what is bring US Basketball undone and letting the Europenas take over. Shaq has an ego yes, but when it comes down to it, Kobe thought that he could be the "man" and thought that he didnt need Shaq. Last time i checked, Shaq is in the Western Conference Finals and Kobe didnt even make the Finals at all.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> He isn't talking trash. He is talking about the right way the game is played. What Kobe Bryant did to a dynasty because of his selfishness is the wrong way to go-about the game. You play to win championships, and Kobe neglected that because of his selfishness.
> 
> Bogut, while maybe not gaining a friend in Kobe Bryant, is exhibiting the attitude that is very much lost in today's game: teamwork. You know, the quality that sets Magic, Bird, and Jordan above the rest, and made them champions.


so, if Kobe were to comment on Bogut's game....saying that he's slow and unathletic and will not be a star in this league, but a nice role player...

how do you think the people would respond....and thats nothing but constructive criticism....Bogut is speaking on Kobe the person in which know's nothing about...

I like how everyone is an expert on Shaq and Kobe's relationship and he basically repeated what every so-called expert has said over the past year...

Shaq = right
Kobe = wrong

this **** is getting so old


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



> so, if Kobe were to comment on Bogut's game....saying that he's slow and unathletic and will not be a star in this league, but a nice role player..


Bogut didn't question Kobe's skills at all. I am sure he knows that Kobe is a great player. The selfishness is what Bogut, and countless numbers of other people associated with basketball, don't agree with.



> how do you think the people would respond....and thats nothing but constructive criticism....Bogut is speaking on Kobe the person in which know's nothing about...


How do you know he knows nothing about it? He sees just what you and me see, Shaq leaves, and the Lakers are a lottery team. The fact that it was all brought on by himself, then I think there is a point to it.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

I already liked Andrew Bogut.

But now. He is seriously threatening to become my favorite player. And he hasn't even played yet. 

You all presume too much about Kobe's ability to posterize a man who probably wrestles crocodiles for kicks.

Bogut will lay Kobe the **** out. Bleeb that.


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## BenDengGo (Feb 1, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> Because what he sees in Kobe is entirely different than what he sees in former greats like Jordan, Magic, and Bird. He understands the history of the game. He sees that Kobe isn't a team player, is selfish, and that is the central reason his team wasn't good this year.
> 
> Why can't he be vocal about that? I am glad he has an understanding of team basketball, and successful basketball.
> 
> He also sees that the US Olympic Team has become me-first players, and that is the reason they are taking Bronze Medals in the Olympics, where true teams are now beating them. I think that point is very well taken.


you just defend him because you want him in mílwaukee.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



BenDengGo said:


> you just defend him because you want him in mílwaukee.


LMAFO. It isn't about defending Bogut. It is about defending his statements. I totally agree with everything he said.

I would rather have a team player, who understands the history of the game on my team, and respects the game, rather than having a me-first Prima Donna that will lead my team into the lottery.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> How do you know he knows nothing about it? He sees just what you and me see, Shaq leaves, and the Lakers are a lottery team. The fact that it was all brought on by himself, then I think there is a point to it.


I don't the reasoning behind him commenting on it period...


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



tone wone said:


> I don't the reasoning behind him commenting on it period...


Because he was asked to comment on it, and he gave a very legitimate answer.


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## Kunlun (Jun 22, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Andrew Bogut knows the game well, I'm sure he will come in and do well right away and have a fabulous career. 

First of all those of you accusing Bogut of not having the right to speak about this and that, read the article again and again again until you see the lines, _"Bogut was asked for specifics of the American attitude toward the game, what he does not like."_ It's not like he brought up Kobe for no reason, he was using Kobe as an example of an attitude he didn't like seeing in the American game. He has every right to his own opinion and when asked he expressed it. Nothing wrong with it at all.

Oh, and I agree with everything he had to say in that article.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

he was speaking in that article like he was Bill Russell...


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> LMAFO. It isn't about defending Bogut. It is about defending his statements. I totally agree with everything he said.
> 
> I would rather have a team player, who understands the history of the game on my team, and respects the game, rather than having a me-first Prima Donna that will lead my team into the lottery.



You really need to have some objectivity. I know you are creaming yourself to have the Bucks get Bogut but he knows nothing about Kobe's attitude. He should have just put on a tape of ESPN and let Screamin' Stephen A. talk for him because he just parroted everything he has _heard_ because he has absolutely no 1st hand knowledge.

I really and truly hope he does go #1 now, the aftermath of that is going to be epic. I swear he has become aa lot better player _since_ the college basketball season has ended.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



> You really need to have some objectivity. I know you are creaming yourself to have the Bucks get Bogut but he knows nothing about Kobe's attitude. He should have just put on a tape of ESPN and let Screamin' Stephen A. talk for him because he just parroted everything he has _heard_ because he has absolutely no 1st hand knowledge.


Everything he said was legitimate. Everyone and their mothers would agree with what he said. Just because he doesn't have 1st Hand knowledge, does it make it any more false? NO! People here on BBB.net don't have 1st hand knowledge, but we know that it is the truth.



> I really and truly hope he does go #1 now, the aftermath of that is going to be epic. I swear he has become aa lot better player _since_ the college basketball season has ended.


The aftermath? Epic? Well, I think that Kwame Brown has prepared us all for the possibilty of a #1 overall pick of being a bust.


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## FATSHAQANDTMAC (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Cammo said:


> Heaven forbid Bogut tells it how it is, rather than sugar coat or fence sit like most do. Kobe is a **edited**, everyone in their right mind knows that all that Kobe is about is ME ME ME ME ME and that is what is bring US Basketball undone and letting the Europenas take over. Shaq has an ego yes, but when it comes down to it, Kobe thought that he could be the "man" and thought that he didnt need Shaq. Last time i checked, Shaq is in the Western Conference Finals and Kobe didnt even make the Finals at all.



yes shaq and timmy sure are tearing up in the western conference


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



> He expounded on that comment this week, buying fully into the anti-American hoop rant, the one where too many And 1 Skip-to-My-Lou videos and not enough dedication to the craft make for flawed games and bronze medals. How growing humility and talent from abroad has humbled us at home.
> 
> "The problem these days is money, and the guys just all want to be all-stars," Bogut said. "That [Dream Team] was all all-stars, the best of the best. But they were professional in their manner, on and off the court. They weren't immature kids coming out of high school. Not to knock the high schoolers, but those players had had been through the college process. They learned to gain respect from coaches, Dean Smith and so on. Then they got to the NBA and they got beat up by other teams before they succeeded, Jordan getting beat up by the Pistons and so on.
> "They learned to respect the game and they were unselfish when they played. One game, Magic scored 20. One game, Jordan scored 20. It didn't matter. 'Who cares? We're beating up on the world.' "


he sounded like one of 2 things...

either...a old former player who missed out on millions and doesn't like the "new school" breed of players..

or...an old white sports writer who barely watches the league...yet writes an annual article on how the NBA is corrupted and that glory days are gone and will never come back


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## Kunlun (Jun 22, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



tone wone said:


> or...an *old white* sports writer who barely watches the league...yet writes an annual article on how the NBA is corrupted and that glory days are gone and will never come back


Why does race need to be mentioned in a topic like this? It makes no sense to cause problems when problems don't need to be caused.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Kunlun said:


> Why does race need to be mentioned in a topic like this? It makes no sense to cause problems when problems don't need to be caused.


 alright then..

he souded like an old sports writer who doesn't barely watches the league but yet is an expert on it


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



tone wone said:


> alright then..
> 
> he souded like an old sports writer who doesn't barely watches the league but yet is an expert on it


Actually he sounded like a person who respects the way the game is meant to be played. He gives respect to the greats before him, and wants to model his mentality after them.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

bogut sounded like he knows how NBA is ran, what kind of player kobe is, he's already a superstar himself..... he's threanting to become my most hated player. if anything, hes pretty ****ing cocky himself. 

also, notice how he overhypes the importance of big men vs guards. instead of "playing with timmy, shaq u keep ur mouth shut", about add in some more names like t-mac, wade, jordan, nash, all the great guards in the league they are just as many important guards in the league as there are big men. just because himself is a big man. 

what about this statement to shaq" when u r playing with a such clutch superstar who works his *** off, u keep ur mouth shut and work ur *** off too, dont be a lazy bum".

mark my words, bogut is nothing more than a 10/6 guy, the next chris mihm. 
sorry but big white boys don't make it in this league.....





Please Don't Mask Curse - Koko


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## FATSHAQANDTMAC (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> Actually he sounded like a person who respects the way the game is meant to be played. He gives respect to the greats before him, and wants to model his mentality after them.



way to model yourself after the greats by talking trash about a current star, it doesn't matter if Kobe is selfish.


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## maKINGSofgreatness (Aug 17, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Bogut knows more about Kobe's character first hand that most of you think. There was an article on sportsillustrated.com a few months ago called "Kobe, Now I Know You Deserve Your Reputation" by Arash Markazi, posted on 4/15/05, and apparently Markazi had set up a meeting between Bogut and Bryant, and he was going to write about how Kobe could show Bogut how to conduct himself like a professional in the NBA. So after Bogut flies in, Kobe no-shows, and then has a representative call later and try to explain it. 

Sorry about not posting a link, but Sport Illustrated's website won't load it anymore, because the name of the article has been changed to "Asking for Kobe's Help", but it won't load there either...

So maybe Bogut just holds a grudge. Right around that time Kobe missed a game vs. the Kings to be with his wife because of her ectopic (sp?) pregnancy, so he may have missed the appointment because of that situation.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



> bogut sounded like he knows how NBA is ran, what kind of player kobe is, he's already a superstar himself..... he's threanting to become my most hated player. if anything, hes pretty fuking cocky himself.


God forbid that he has an understanding on the history of the game, and how champions act. He is trying to mold himself after guys like Magic, Bird, Jordan, and Duncan, proven winners. I don't think that really makes him cocky. 



> also, notice how he overhypes the importance of big men vs guards. instead of "playing with timmy, shaq u keep ur mouth shut", about add in some more names like t-mac, wade, jordan, nash, all the great guards in the league they are just as many important guards in the league as there are big men. just because himself is a big man.


Big men, when it comes to winning championships, are more important than guards. That is a fact that can be proven throughout NBA History. If Kobe wanted to win more championships, he wouldn't have forced Shaq to be traded. 



> mark my words, bogut is nothing more than a 10/6 guy, the next chris mihm.
> sorry but big white boys don't make it in this league.....


This statement is just as bad as any of the statements Andrew Bogut made, and is really irrelevant to this discussion. You are basing your statement of soley on stereotypes. You don't know anything about Andrew Bogut, so if you say Bogut shouldn't comment on Kobe, why can you make these bold predictions about Bogut?


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## FATSHAQANDTMAC (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



maKINGSofgreatness said:


> Bogut knows more about Kobe's character first hand that most of you think. There was an article on sportsillustrated.com a few months ago called "Kobe, Now I Know You Deserve Your Reputation" by Arash Markazi, posted on 4/15/05, and apparently Markazi had set up a meeting between Bogut and Bryant, and he was going to write about how Kobe could show Bogut how to conduct himself like a professional in the NBA. So after Bogut flies in, Kobe no-shows, and then has a representative call later and try to explain it.
> 
> Sorry about not posting a link, but Sport Illustrated's website won't load it anymore, because the name of the article has been changed to "Asking for Kobe's Help", but it won't load there either...
> 
> So maybe Bogut just holds a grudge. Right around that time Kobe missed a game vs. the Kings to be with his wife because of her ectopic (sp?) pregnancy, so he may have missed the appointment because of that situation.



thats exactly why Kobe missed it, he really should have let his wife suffer alone in hospital just to show a future bust around. :banana:


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## FATSHAQANDTMAC (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> This statement is just as bad as any of the statements Andrew Bogut made. You are basing your statement of soley on stereotypes. You don't know anything about Andrew Bogut, so if you say Bogut shouldn't comment on Kobe, why can you make these bold predictions about Bogut


all of the sudden the comments made by Bogut is bad?


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



FATSHAQANDTMAC said:


> all of the sudden the comments made by Bogut is bad?


No...I am saying if you think Bogut shouldn't be in position to comment on Kobe, than people here shouldn't be in position to comment on Bogut, because we have no first-hand knowledge on what he really is like.


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## jalen5 (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> Kobe Bryant: Coming to an NBA Draft Lottery near you.


He's not coming to an NBA Draft lottery near me (New Orleans)! You Milwaukee fans can have him! And have fun losing in the playoffs every year! I'd rather be in the lottery every year and keep taking chances on greatness (championships) than settle for mediocrity (Bogut). I don't care what you say man, he's not going to be a superstar. Yea, I know what you're gonna say. He'll be a good center that can "compete" w/ Shaq and Duncan or whoever. But the bottom line is you are gonna make the playoffs, lose in the first round, and get a middle first round pick for many years to come if you take Bogut.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



jalen5 said:


> He's not coming to an NBA Draft lottery near me (New Orleans)! You Milwaukee fans can have him! And have fun losing in the playoffs every year! I'd rather be in the lottery every year and keep taking chances on greatness (championships) than settle for mediocrity (Bogut). I don't care what you say man, he's not going to be a superstar. Yea, I know what you're gonna say. He'll be a good center that can "compete" w/ Shaq and Duncan or whoever. But the bottom line is you are gonna make the playoffs, lose in the first round, and get a middle first round pick for many years to come if you take Bogut.


You know the future? Ooooo, that's right, you don't. Well, I will take my chances building a team around a 20 year old skilled Center than a selfish primadonna, no matter how many points he scores a game, any day of the week.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> God forbid that he has an understanding on the history of the game, and how champions act. He is trying to mold himself after guys like Magic, Bird, Jordan, and Duncan, proven winners. I don't think that really makes him cocky.
> 
> i m not gonna argue much about this but man please dont associate bogut with names like jordan/bird/magic.. he's not worthy of being mentioned at the same sentence as those guys.
> 
> ...


but i know this, the chance of bogut being a dominant big man title contender is as slim as darko. ive seen some of his games in college, he's not even close to being the player yao ming is, or even Z from the cavs. and based on how hes already talking trashes toward NBA superstar without setting his feet on the NBA court first, i know he's not gonna be anything more than chris mihm.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Haha. Some of you guy's responses are hilarious.

"HOW DARE ANDREW BOGUT HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT BASKETBALL!!"

You guys all have your **** in a wad because you say he doesn't know Kobe personally, so he can't say anything about Kobe, when you don't know anything about Bogut, and how much he does or does not know about Kobe.

For the little bit that Bogut said about Kobe, most of you all have in your indignation, taken it much farther against Bogut.

Now I see this racist bull**** against Bogut. I don't recall Bogut's analysis having anything to do with Kobe's race. But now you guys want to attack Bogut's race and make a bunch of broad generalizations? Comedy.

I think it's great. I hope more people pile on. I hope you guys completely despise Bogut by the time he steps on the floor. Because it's going to make it hurt all the more when you find out the kid can actually play and that he's not just some white stiff.

Bogut is a mean mother****er. And if you think he won't put Kobe on his back, you've got another thing coming. Bogut is not one of these soft nancy boy centers that were so the vogue the last 4 or 5 years. He's not some nice guy like Yao Ming. Bogut will tear your mother****ing head off. And it's not like he's going to be out there alone like a lot of number 1 picks. He's going to have guards like Desmond Mason, and Michael Redd at his back. With front court support from Gadzuric and Joe Smith.

Basically Bogut is set up to succeed, and all of you hoping for his failure are going to be sorely disapointed.

And I will love it. Just LOVE it.

You guys accuse Bogut of not knowing anything about Kobe-Shaq. But I guarantee he knows more about that, then you do about him. Most of you all never saw him play. And if you did, I question whether you actually knew what you were seeing, given the comments some of you have made.

I am Bogut's upraised middle finger.


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## jalen5 (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> You know the future? Ooooo, that's right, you don't. Well, I will take my chances building a team around a 20 year old skilled Center than a selfish primadonna, no matter how many points he scores a game, any day of the week.


No, I don't know the future. But I do know NBA basketball. And he's not going to be some crazy unstoppable Duncan-like player in the NBA. And as far as deciding to build around Kobe or Bogut, umm, I think that's a no brainer. I absolutely DON'T LIKE Kobe at ALL, but I'm not going to be so stupid and ignorant to say that I wouldn't build around Kobe first. I believe I remember a guy named Michael Jordan being cocky and trying to do everything himself for several years when he first arrived in the NBA and it looked like he figured things out eventually and became the greatest player ever to play the game. Plus, if Bogut ends up being the top center in the NBA someday, it means that the centers positon talent, ability, and importance level have gone down significantly since the days of Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Duncan, Shaq, etc... Like I said earlier, he's going to be a good player, just not GREAT. He's not going to save your damn Milwaukee franchise dude. And if you take him, he'll put you at a mediocrity level that will not allow you to take a chance on another guy in the Draft that can take you to the next level (unless he's worse than I thought he'd be).


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## jalen5 (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



futuristxen said:


> Haha. Some of you guy's responses are hilarious.
> 
> I am Bogut's upraised middle finger.



Your little finger is not gonna stop the rest of the NBA from beating his *** into a good but definitley not great or superstar player.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Sith said:


> but i know this, the chance of bogut being a dominant big man title contender is as slim as darko. ive seen some of his games in college, he's not even close to being the player yao ming is, or even Z from the cavs. and based on how hes already talking trashes toward NBA superstar without setting his feet on the NBA court first, i know he's not gonna be anything more than chris mihm.


You haven't seen ****. And if you have, your just another blind man looking for your tailless mouse troop in a room full of thumbtacks and dynamite.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



jalen5 said:


> Your little finger is not gonna stop the rest of the NBA from beating his *** into a good but definitley not great or superstar player.


Oh you mean the rest of the league that already hates Kobe and believes the exact same thing as Bogut? That league?

Who are Kobe's boys in the league?

Bogut kissed up to the right people. Shaq and Duncan. And he dissed the right guy. Kobe.


----------



## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



> No, I don't know the future. But I do know NBA basketball. And he's not going to be some crazy unstoppable Duncan-like player in the NBA. And as far as deciding to build around Kobe or Bogut, umm, I think that's a no brainer. I absolutely DON'T LIKE Kobe at ALL, but I'm not going to be so stupid and ignorant to say that I wouldn't build around Kobe first. I believe I remember a guy named Michael Jordan being cocky and trying to do everything himself for several years when he first arrived in the NBA and it looked like he figured things out eventually and became the greatest player ever to play the game.


Again, you don't see the future. Who is to say Bogut won't be a Duncan-like player in the NBA? You don't know it, I don't know it, but the potentiall is definitly there. 

Ahhh...another Kobe Bryant-Michael Jordan comparison. I sure missed those. To even put those 2 in the same sentance right now is just insane. Michael Jordan is 100x the player and the man that Kobe Bryant will ever be, and it showed on and off the court.



> Plus, if Bogut ends up being the top center in the NBA someday, it means that the centers positon talent, ability, and importance level have gone down significantly since the days of Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Duncan, Shaq, etc... Like I said earlier, he's going to be a good player, just not GREAT.  He's not going to save your damn Milwaukee franchise dude. And if you take him, he'll put you at a mediocrity level that will not allow you to take a chance on another guy in the Draft that can take you to the next level (unless he's worse than I thought he'd be).


I am not asking Bogut to save the franchise. We already have allstar talent in Michael Redd, TJ Ford, and to a lesser extent, Desmond Mason. We also have ALOT of caproom. I am just stoked that we will have a post presence that can put us over the top. You can tear down Bogut all you want, but that is my opinion.


----------



## BBB (Jan 19, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Interesting comment... It'd have been "safer" to not bring up anyone's name like that, but he decided to be completely frank and not sugar coat his comments or anything. I respect that. 

I pity those who completely agree with what Bogut said though. It's ridiculous to put all the blame on just one party, when both sides are to be blamed.


----------



## BBB (Jan 19, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



futuristxen said:


> Bogut kissed up to the right people. Shaq and Duncan.


He sure did. Because they play the same position as him, perhaps they'd go easier on him when they meet.


----------



## ssmokinjoe (Jul 5, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Bogut was just speaking honestly and giving his opinion about something that has been plastered all over tv and radio. His opinion reflects the opinion of a person who is not personally close to either Kobe or Shaq and gets his info from the media. Last time i checked, each and every one of us on this board got our info about the subject from the same sources. That being said, Bogut has as much right to have and opinion on the subject as you and me. We all form our beliefs about these things from what the media feeds us. No opinion is wrong and no opinion is right because none of us got any of our info from the subject first hand.


----------



## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



BBB said:


> He sure did. Because they play the same position as him, perhaps they'd go easier on him when they meet.


I think the fact that they are the ones that are deciding who wins championships is why he was kissing up to them. They demand more respect than selfish, primadonna Kobe.


----------



## FATSHAQANDTMAC (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



futuristxen said:


> You haven't seen ****. And if you have, your just another blind man looking for your tailless mouse troop in a room full of thumbtacks and dynamite.


and yet he is going to tear heads off and so forth... I'd hate to be his middle finger, the same finger that will get broken every time he tries to block a dunk from Amare and co.

OH MAN BOGUT IS GONNA RUP HEDZ OFF AND POOP DOWNB THROATS!!!


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



ssmokinjoe said:


> Bogut was just speaking honestly and giving his opinion about something that has been plastered all over tv and radio. His opinion reflects the opinion of a person who is not personally close to either Kobe or Shaq and gets his info from the media. Last time i checked, each and every one of us on this board got our info about the subject from the same sources. That being said, Bogut has as much right to have and opinion on the subject as you and me. We all form our beliefs about these things from what the media feeds us. No opinion is wrong and no opinion is right because none of us got any of our info from the subject first hand.


yes, he was giving his opinion....but was just a little to candid for me...

as I said before he talked as if he was Bill Russell


then again his opinions really don't matter to me, except there are going to be quite a few people who will agree with him..and will use his statements as further proof of whats wrong with the NBA and how Kobe is evil


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



maKINGSofgreatness said:


> Bogut knows more about Kobe's character first hand that most of you think. There was an article on sportsillustrated.com a few months ago called "Kobe, Now I Know You Deserve Your Reputation" by Arash Markazi, posted on 4/15/05, and apparently Markazi had set up a meeting between Bogut and Bryant, and he was going to write about how Kobe could show Bogut how to conduct himself like a professional in the NBA. So after Bogut flies in, Kobe no-shows, and then has a representative call later and try to explain it.
> 
> Sorry about not posting a link, but Sport Illustrated's website won't load it anymore, because the name of the article has been changed to "Asking for Kobe's Help", but it won't load there either...
> 
> So maybe Bogut just holds a grudge. Right around that time Kobe missed a game vs. the Kings to be with his wife because of her ectopic (sp?) pregnancy, so he may have missed the appointment because of that situation.


This post alone destroyed any credibility that Bogut has, and effectively owns this thread. Why hasn't anyone realized this? How painfully obvious is it, if this story is true, that Bogut was already biased against Kobe having probably never even met the guy? Of course he'll bring up Kobe as someone he doesn't like, if Kobe wouldn't bother making any appearance to show his newbie *** the ropes. The kid's crying over spilled milk. Boo hoo.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Man, what a waste of time... 2 years in College (i think) and you are still a moron...


----------



## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Bogut... You are a NOBODY. And you will be the BIGGEST #1 pick bust of all-time. Quote me if you want. 

All he's done is just 100% guaranteed Kobe will be posterizing him, badly! And who the hell is this guy to talk? You're not even in the league yet.


----------



## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

I'm a big fan of Bogut's game, and promoted him on the draft forum as #1 before DraftCity and well before NBADraft got around to the idea.

What Bogut said, IMO, is true. But it certainly isn't the whole truth.

And it is simply a bad idea to name names.

IMO, it shows poor judgement. And yes, quite a bit of cockiness on his part.

OTOH, it makes for interesting press, and we can already look forward to their first meeting on the court.

Finally, I don't care if Vanessa was in intensive care, as soon as you realize your gonna miss a meeting, you get in touch with the people you were gonna see. Unless, of course, you are selfish and arrogant.


----------



## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



BaronMcGrady said:


> Bogut... You are a NOBODY. And you will be the BIGGEST #1 pick bust of all-time. Quote me if you want.
> 
> All he's done is just 100% guaranteed Kobe will be posterizing him, badly! And who the hell is this guy to talk? You're not even in the league yet.


100% agreed!!!! by just looking at him, i already knew he's not gonna be better than chris mihm. hahaha..........


----------



## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

This thread is a hilarious waste of time... I'm not even sure why I'm replying to it, but hey... look at that, a bunch of no-name-nobodies that will never touch NBA hard-wood are criticizing Andrew Bogut for doing exactly what they do on a daily basis! You guys are so hypocritical it makes me laugh out loud to myself...

Andrew Bogut, who will never be a Hall of Famer (predicting: 19pt, 9reb, 1.5blk, .515fg) criticized a prima-donna that may be a Hall of Famer ONLY because of his three titles with Shaq (the NBA Hall of Fame is a tough place to get into, no NBA players got in this year, not one), if he keeps playing like he did this year, despite the talent surrounding him (playoff talent, definitely, if not yet realized) then I see him as only a marginal Hall of Famer...

Now a bunch of whothe****s that couldn't get as far as Curtis Heroman are doing the same thing to him? If you're going to tell him he can't say something, then you'd better do the same thing.

Me? I think he has all the right to answer the question. He was asked what he didn't like about the NBA game, and he used an example... he has probably seen plenty of Lakers games on TV, and frankly... he doesn't like what he sees (neither do I, but for me it is less Kobe's game than his obsession with being an image whore). If he wants to say it, then so be it, he'll say it.

Don't say he won't be anything in the league because he's a white foreignor, he's tougher than Dirk or Darko, he isn't the same type of player as they are. He is very unlikely to be like Darko who simply doesn't have a post-game yet. Wait until he's played some on the NBA court before you talk about his game... I'd rather wait and see than end up looking like a ****ing idiot in a little less than a year when the guy I criticized ends up with a big ol' RoY trophy.


-Chris.


EDIT EDIT EDIT
My prediction for stats on Bogut = career/prime stats, not his rookie stats... just so I have that clear before anybody misunderstands, for his rookie season I think he has a shot at 15pt/7.5reb
/EDIT /EDIT /EDIT


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Whether the players agree with his assessment of Kobe is irrelevant. Players don't like it when rookies come in talking junk. He already will have a target on him by being the #1 or 2 pick in the draft. He made that target much larger because he is not just disrespecting Kobe but he also says he does not like the way Americans play basketball. Every "star" in the NBA is American and will take this as an insult to their game.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

:laugh: This guy is just asking to get dunked on!


----------



## ThaShark316 (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

I first read the quotes, I quickly said "Yeah, he's gonna get put on a poster as soon as KB8 sees him". But anyway...


All u clowns who diss Bogut for having an OPINION are crazy. Since when do we live in a country (the Americans here, that is) where you can't say what you feel? 

LMAO @ the "predictions" by everyone...10/6,19/7..all of that is beyond stupid. I mean, I thought Dionne Warrick was psychic, not the bb.net members. Get over it people, Bogut said what he had to say, so drop it. You don't like, too bad.

Sith, stop bringing up the race card..."no white big men do anything in this league"? Why not drop a n-bomb while your at it, I mean why stop there. 

It's too early in the damn morning for me to be even a tenth riled up, so I'm done.


----------



## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

I like Bogut already. Telling it like it is

and he didnt just say it for no reason. He was asked about it and gave a honest answer


----------



## sic_D (May 5, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

:clap: Looking forward to Bogut joining the league.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

bogut sounds like a fanboy taking an easy potshot at a currently popular target to sound cool. he knows nothing about life in the nba and the relationships and egos that he's going to have to deal with himself. the attitude that shaq's the man, and you do whatever you have to to make him happy is ridiculous. no star player would actually have that attitude if in that situation. they may try harder to make things work, but bogut is saying that you do whatever you have to, which is bunk, and easy to say from the sidelines. just because someone may be the more important teammate doesn't mean they have unconditional rule. it's interesting that the much harder working guy who wasn't crying about a contract extension while making $30+M a year when he still had 3 yrs left on his contract who doesn't call himself the most dominant ever is the embodyment of what's wrong with the nba.


----------



## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Bogut's point isn't really focusing on Kobe Bryant specifically as much as the state of American basketball in general. He used Bryant as an example, but it isn't his focus. Don't lose sight of that.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



futuristxen said:


> Haha. Some of you guy's responses are hilarious.
> 
> "HOW DARE ANDREW BOGUT HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT BASKETBALL!!"
> 
> ...


Looks like you found another incoming foreign player to overrate. Remember all that noise you made about Nocioni (future bench player) being the Bulls best player this time last year?


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



HeinzGuderian said:


> Bogut's point isn't really focusing on Kobe Bryant specifically as much as the state of American basketball in general. He used Bryant as an example, but it isn't his focus. Don't lose sight of that.


I understand that but what he said is stupid and self centered. He basically said that if a player does not do like I did they are doing it wrong. However, seing as how fast he left Utah when he was a 1st round pick leads me to think if he was good enough before he went to Utah, he would already be in the NBA. He did the same thing every HS - NBA player did, he declared the minute he was a sure fire 1st round pick.


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



HeinzGuderian said:


> Bogut's point isn't really focusing on Kobe Bryant specifically as much as the state of American basketball in general. He used Bryant as an example, but it isn't his focus. Don't lose sight of that.


 the whole article sounded real cliche-ish


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



ThaShark316 said:


> All u clowns who diss Bogut for having an OPINION are crazy. Since when do we live in a country (the Americans here, that is) where you can't say what you feel?


Somethings should go unsaid for the benefit of saving face. This is a prime example. He's openly hoping on the bandwagon of stepping on a guy when he's down.


----------



## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Tact.


----------



## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

haha you will go far in my league if you can continue to bash kobe


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DuMa said:


> haha you will go far in my league if you can continue to bash kobe



It is the popular thing to do.


----------



## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

man Kobe gets more enemies every day.... why didn't he just leave the lakers if he didn't want to play with shaq??? wasn't he a free agent??? it would of been much better PR if he would of just left the lakers and said he did not want to play their


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Well, this comments will disapear with time... i don't think Kobe will respond to them, and the 2 won't meet in the court so soon...

Man, how i miss the good ól' days... Back then, a player who would bash another publicly would probably regret it when facing the other guy´s team...

What do you think Charles Oakley would do to someone who would go public bashing Michael Jordan?

Oh well... This is the NEW Nba... :sigh:


----------



## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Spriggan said:


> This post alone destroyed any credibility that Bogut has, and effectively owns this thread. Why hasn't anyone realized this? How painfully obvious is it, if this story is true, that Bogut was already biased against Kobe having probably never even met the guy? Of course he'll bring up Kobe as someone he doesn't like, if Kobe wouldn't bother making any appearance to show his newbie *** the ropes. The kid's crying over spilled milk. Boo hoo.


Exactly. If Bogut thought so lowly of Bryant as a person, why the hell did he want to meet him? Not only was he going to meet Kobe but Kobe was also going to show him how to act as a professional. Now, less than two months after being spurned by Bryant, Kobe is the ****ing plague? Bogut said what he did, not because he genuinely believed it but because Bryant "dissed" him a few months back.


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Ron Mexico said:


> man Kobe gets more enemies every day.... why didn't he just leave the lakers if he didn't want to play with shaq??? wasn't he a free agent??? it would of been much better PR if he would of just left the lakers and said he did not want to play their


Lakers would still have had to pay Shaq that huge extension.


----------



## Drk Element (Nov 10, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Honestly, why in the hell is bogut saying anything, he's not even an nba player yet, he should of kept his mouth shut.


----------



## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Drk Element said:


> Honestly, why in the hell is bogut saying anything, he's not even an nba player yet, he should of kept his mouth shut.


You mean like everyone on a basketball forum?

Why doesn't he have the right to say this? NBA, CBA, Euroleague, local YMCA, who cares? It's his opinion from a basketball player on an NBA player, not the war on Iraq or abortion.

Stuart


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Bogut should not be making statements about individual players, because these guys don't need incentive to bust his ***. I like him, but talking about Kobe? C'mon now. Kobe is the poster child for American basketball? HAHA. What about Spreewell? 

It's easy to dump on Kobe, but last I check, he's been through the wars and won titles. All I know is, Bogut better become a star, because if he doesn't... people will have some splaining to do.

Talk about Kobe? Puhlease.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



The Mad Viking said:


> Finally, I don't care if Vanessa was in intensive care, as soon as you realize your gonna miss a meeting, you get in touch with the people you were gonna see. Unless, of course, you are selfish and arrogant.


This could be the stupidest thing you ever wrote. If your wife is intensive care, you might not be thinking to call. Don't be silly.


----------



## Drk Element (Nov 10, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



 s a b a s 11 said:


> You mean like everyone on a basketball forum?
> 
> Why doesn't he have the right to say this? NBA, CBA, Euroleague, local YMCA, who cares? It's his opinion from a basketball player on an NBA player, not the war on Iraq or abortion.
> 
> Stuart


either way, does he have the right to single out a player, who he doesn't know? All he knows about kobe is the stuff the media says about him.


----------



## BBB (Jan 19, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Ron Mexico said:


> man Kobe gets more enemies every day.... why didn't he just leave the lakers if he didn't want to play with shaq??? wasn't he a free agent??? it would of been much better PR if he would of just left the lakers and said he did not want to play their


He's just out to destroy the Lakers, that's why. :devil_2:


----------



## BBB (Jan 19, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



kflo said:


> bogut sounds like a fanboy taking an easy potshot at a currently popular target to sound cool. he knows nothing about life in the nba and the relationships and egos that he's going to have to deal with himself. the attitude that shaq's the man, and you do whatever you have to to make him happy is ridiculous. no star player would actually have that attitude if in that situation. they may try harder to make things work, but bogut is saying that you do whatever you have to, which is bunk, and easy to say from the sidelines. just because someone may be the more important teammate doesn't mean they have unconditional rule. *it's interesting that the much harder working guy who wasn't crying about a contract extension while making $30+M a year when he still had 3 yrs left on his contract who doesn't call himself the most dominant ever is the embodyment of what's wrong with the nba.*


Good call. 

Who's the selfish one now, eh?


----------



## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Drk Element said:


> either way, does he have the right to single out a player, who he doesn't know? All he knows about kobe is the stuff the media says about him.


So by that logic, he shouldn't say good things about Tim Duncan either, right?

Stuart


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



kflo said:


> bogut sounds like a fanboy taking an easy potshot at a currently popular target to sound cool. he knows nothing about life in the nba and the relationships and egos that he's going to have to deal with himself. the attitude that shaq's the man, and you do whatever you have to to make him happy is ridiculous. no star player would actually have that attitude if in that situation. they may try harder to make things work, but bogut is saying that you do whatever you have to, which is bunk, and easy to say from the sidelines. just because someone may be the more important teammate doesn't mean they have unconditional rule. it's interesting that the much harder working guy who wasn't crying about a contract extension while making $30+M a year when he still had 3 yrs left on his contract who doesn't call himself the most dominant ever is the embodyment of what's wrong with the nba.


Nail, meet head. Just an excellent post. His comments about Shaq were embarrassing. Talking about carrying his groceries. This is a non-star player telling one of the greatest of all-time to accept playing sidekick to another GOAT. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Think MJ would've enjoyed playing second fiddle to Shaq? It's very easy for us to sit back and criticize Kobe for wanting to be the man, because simply put, we're not in his position. When you play a sport at that high a level, you want to make sure your legacy doesn't fade away. And if Kobe wants to prove to the world what he can do without Shaq, who's anyone to tell him otherwise? It's why MJ's name will continue to live on while Pippen slowly slinks into the background over time. I love Pip, but it's inevitable. Because he was #2.

Kobe isn't satisfied with winning championships. Could he have stayed with Shaq and won a few more titles? Probably. But if Kobe feels that he can't fully maximize his potential with another dominant force on the team, who's to tell him he's wrong?

If he had won more titles with Shaq, wouldn't people have just called him one of, or the greatest sidekick ever? Think a guy like Kobe is satisfied with that moniker? He probably got tired of the media and Diesel's constant claims that he's the engine that drives the Lakers, even if they *were* right. I would've gotten tired of it too if I had that kind of talent.



Pinball said:


> Exactly. If Bogut thought so lowly of Bryant as a person, why the hell did he want to meet him? Not only was he going to meet Kobe but Kobe was also going to show him how to act as a professional. Now, less than two months after being spurned by Bryant, Kobe is the ****ing plague? Bogut said what he did, not because he genuinely believed it but because Bryant "dissed" him a few months back.


True, Pinball. Bogut brings up Kobe as a player that personifies the "poor" state of American sports right now, yet it was going to be that same player that was to show Bogut how to act like a *professional*?

He apparently thinks so lowly of Kobe that it was going to be him, out of all 500 or so players in the NBA, that was to show him what it's like dealing with the media and such in the States.

And bringing up Kobe's cockiness is just overplayed and boring. Pick another of his personality traits to criticize, because that one is silly considering that 95% of the top NBA players are cocky in one form or another. Cockiness is practically a requirement to being a top player. You have to believe you're the best, even if that means publically saying things that could be construed as cocky or egotistical.



> Bogut was just speaking honestly and giving his opinion about something that has been plastered all over tv and radio. His opinion reflects the opinion of a person who is not personally close to either Kobe or Shaq and gets his info from the media. Last time i checked, each and every one of us on this board got our info about the subject from the same sources. That being said, Bogut has as much right to have and opinion on the subject as you and me. We all form our beliefs about these things from what the media feeds us. No opinion is wrong and no opinion is right because none of us got any of our info from the subject first hand.


Sure, except that the things that *we* hear 2nd hand about players, we don't go trumpeting to the media.


----------



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Bogut is crazy. Even if he goes to Milwaukee he still has to face Kobe twice this upcoming season. He's totally asking for it. Kobe is going to teabag him.


----------



## Lynx (Mar 6, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> He isn't talking trash. He is talking about the right way the game is played. What Kobe Bryant did to a dynasty because of his selfishness is the wrong way to go-about the game. You play to win championships, and Kobe neglected that because of his selfishness.


What the **** are you talking about? Kobe never asked for huge extenstion as Shaq did. ***-hole won't take the pay cut and won't come to training camp in shape. :curse:


----------



## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

I'm glad to see someone speak their mind on Kobe. He is all of those things that Luc Bogut said. Kobe should have shut his mouth...(and zipper but that's another topic) and let Shaq win him a few more rings. Now Miami is a few games away from sizing their rings, and Kobe is still buying rings for his wife that he raped on....er cheated on.


----------



## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

People are talking about Bogut not even being a professional yet, so why is it bothering you so much? 



I guess that's Bogut's opinion. I'm not sure if that is how he really feels or if he's just recycling that from what everyone else had said. Either way, it's not that big of a deal. I know the guy is a projected top pick in the draft and he's talking about one of the game's best players, but I'm not putting much thought into this.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



mediocre man said:


> I'm glad to see someone speak their mind on Kobe. He is all of those things that Luc Bogut said. Kobe should have shut his mouth...(and zipper but that's another topic) and let Shaq win him a few more rings. Now Miami is a few games away from sizing their rings, and Kobe is still buying rings for his wife that he raped on....er cheated on.


You're a self-professed Kobe hater and fan of a team that hasn't won a title in generations. I think I'll take Kobe just fine.


----------



## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



> Bogut... You are a NOBODY. And you will be the BIGGEST #1 pick bust of all-time. Quote me if you want.


Because you just know right. If you knew the future, you should be working for an NBA Franchise, not posting on BBB.net.



> All he's done is just 100% guaranteed Kobe will be posterizing him, badly! And who the hell is this guy to talk? You're not even in the league yet.


Kobe can posterize him all he wants, but as long as Kobe is leading his Lakers to the lottery, I could give 2 ****s. A lot of bigmen get posterized, but bigmen are the ones who decide championships. Advantage: Bigmen.


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

It was Bogut opinion for god sake!!!!!!! if you dont like it......ignore it
Who cares what he says, i definantly dont.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

I know this much, Kobe will be looking forward to making a poster out of this kid


----------



## Lope31 (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> Well, I will take my chances building a team around a 20 year old skilled Center than a selfish primadonna, no matter how many points he scores a game, any day of the week.


Okay. There's one! Seriously though DHarris34Phan, nobody is forcing you to praise everything Bogut does. Yet, at least. I have never seen somebody so fiercly defend a player for no reason other than 'he's gonna be on our team'.

Bogut is a great player and people that call him a bust are setting themselves up to be embarassed in a few years, but however good he turns out to be has nothing to do with this. At the end of the day, Kobe Bryant is a future hall of famer, perennial all star with three rings under his belt and a few all NBA selections before the age of 27. And Bogut is yet to be a rookie.

I was completley surprised to see Bogut has yet to hire a PR man, or is just that stupid. And jumping back to what you said in your post, I will go as far as to guess that not a single GM would trade that number one pick for Kobe Bryant.

Also, check my signature and vote!


----------



## bear23 (Feb 28, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Thank Bogut for keeping Kobe in news at this time of the year.


----------



## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

So funny...so true. :laugh:


----------



## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



bear23 said:


> Thank Bogut for keeping Kobe in news at this time of the year.



thats my take on it as well, that and the fact that for one reason or another people still think kobe is respondsible for shaqs departure? I dont get that one... but still...it's always a good day when kobe gets bashed i think?


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Sith said:


> bogut sounded like he knows how NBA is ran, what kind of player kobe is, he's already a superstar himself..... he's threanting to become my most hated player. if anything, hes pretty ****ing cocky himself.
> 
> also, notice how he overhypes the importance of big men vs guards. instead of "playing with timmy, shaq u keep ur mouth shut", about add in some more names like t-mac, wade, jordan, nash, all the great guards in the league they are just as many important guards in the league as there are big men. just because himself is a big man.
> 
> ...


So if those guards are just as important as the big men, how come no teams wo/ quality big guys made it to the Conference Finals? Its time to face facts, people. Teams w/ Big Men win titles. Teams w/ wing players and wo/ big men get on SportsCenter, and get nice, long summers.


----------



## adarsh1 (May 28, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

very well done bogut. Great way to start off your career. He spoke the truth and I respect him for that. Kobe better watch out because when he drives against the Bucks, Bogut will stuff his *** and beat him off the court


----------



## Blink4 (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> Because you just know right. If you knew the future, you should be working for an NBA Franchise, not posting on BBB.net.
> 
> 
> Kobe can posterize him all he wants, but as long as Kobe is leading his Lakers to the lottery, I could give 2 ****s. A lot of bigmen get posterized, but bigmen are the ones who decide championships. Advantage: Bigmen.


heh, how can you talk about kobe leading his team to the lotterry when your favorite team HAS THE #1 PICK. i mean, uits cool and all that u mite be getting bogut, but that also means your TEAM BLOWS THE ****. btw, bogut blows and kobe will own him


----------



## Kirk20 (Dec 13, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Not every team that has a big man wins. Cleveland didn't even make it into the playoffs with probably the 2nd or 3rd best big-man in the league, and to act like you would rather have Bogut over Kobe, is just stupid.


----------



## Bron_Melo_ROY (Apr 12, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Bogut hasn't done enough of anything for him to start trashing Kobe-Bean like that. When Shaq talks sh**, he can back it up. Nonetheless, someone had to say something to Kobe Bryant, he just wasn't the right one to do so.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



futuristxen said:


> Haha. Some of you guy's responses are hilarious.
> 
> "HOW DARE ANDREW BOGUT HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT BASKETBALL!!"
> 
> ...


I second this post in its entirety. Well, except for the last sentence, but that's only because I'm a moderator.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

why does someone have to say something to kobe? it's been kobe season for almost 2 years now. and he continues to sit back and not really say a word. why does someone have to say something to kobe? about what?


----------



## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Kobe = Anakin Skywalker


----------



## thekid (Apr 3, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

That certainly brought some opinions..


----------



## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



SeaNet said:


> So if those guards are just as important as the big men, how come no teams wo/ quality big guys made it to the Conference Finals? Its time to face facts, people. Teams w/ Big Men win titles. Teams w/ wing players and wo/ big men get on SportsCenter, and get nice, long summers.


Exactly...that is precisly the reason why I would rather build my team around a 20 year old skilled big man right now than a Superstar Wing (Marvin Williams?)


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Jamel Irief said:


> Looks like you found another incoming foreign player to overrate. Remember all that noise you made about Nocioni (future bench player) being the Bulls best player this time last year?



Noce was pretty good his first year. I didn't overrate Noc as much as I underrated Deng and Gordon. I was pleasantly suprised by Deng, who I think is the real best Bulls rookie. He and Noce are a dangerous duo.


----------



## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Bogut is just angry that Kobe didn't meet with him like they had planned. What that idiot most likely doesn't know is the reason Kobe couldn't make it. Vanessa was very SERIOUSLY ill and Kobe even missed the next Lakers game to be with her. Bogut should shut up and wait until he plays a minute of NBA ball before he starts blabbing.


----------



## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



kflo said:


> why does someone have to say something to kobe? it's been kobe season for almost 2 years now. and he continues to sit back and not really say a word. why does someone have to say something to kobe? about what?


Exactly. If he is so arrogant and cocky, why does he just sit back and let fools like Bogut, Shaq and Allen talk about him? He hasn't said one bad word during this whole process.


----------



## jalen5 (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



speedythief said:


> Bogut is crazy. Even if he goes to Milwaukee he still has to face Kobe twice this upcoming season. He's totally asking for it. Kobe is going to teabag him.



This whole thread is crazy. We shouldn't care what Bogut said one way or the other. The bottom line is Kobe was going to dunk in Bogut's face before Bogut said what he said anyway. If Bogut would have said something nice about him, Kobe STILL would dunk in his face. So what Bogut said is irrelevant anyway.


----------



## jalen5 (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> Because you just know right. If you knew the future, you should be working for an NBA Franchise, not posting on BBB.net.
> 
> 
> Kobe can posterize him all he wants, but as long as Kobe is leading his Lakers to the lottery, I could give 2 ****s. A lot of bigmen get posterized, but bigmen are the ones who decide championships. Advantage: Bigmen.



I guarantee you Kobe will win another championship before your buddy Bogut wins one. This was Kobe's first year on the new Lakers team. Bogut is going to be the one helping Milwaukee get a 15 to 22 pick in the 1st round every year. The Lakers will eventually get other players around Kobe to bring them the championship.


----------



## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



jalen5 said:


> The Lakers will eventually get other players around Kobe to bring them the championship.


Like a quality big man? They had SHAQ!!!!! Why did they need to mess with it? 

It is not like Kobe was leading an NBDL team, either. Caron Butler and Lamar Odom are both great players.


----------



## nima86 (Jul 30, 2002)

*Reason Bogut's Mad at Kobe*

On Friday, Arash Markazi has a column published on CNNSI.com in which he rips Kobe Bryant for failing to show up for a "mentor" story with him and Andrew Bogut. Later that day, SI and others report that Kobe Bryant missed Friday night's Lakers game against the Sacramento Kings to be with his wife, who had developed a potentially life-threatening case of ectopic pregnancy. After a few days of testing, Vanessa Bryant has been diagnosed and will be fine. 

of course the reporter didnt check up on this peculiar venom bogut seemed to be spewing out of nowhere. i mean he hasnt even met kobe bryant, although its now apparent that he wanted to.

Looks like Bogut got his feelings hurt poor lil Aussie


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



jalen5 said:


> I guarantee you Kobe will win another championship before your buddy Bogut wins one. This was Kobe's first year on the new Lakers team. Bogut is going to be the one helping Milwaukee get a 15 to 22 pick in the 1st round every year. The Lakers will eventually get other players around Kobe to bring them the championship.



I have a feeling that Milwaukee has a better chance of making the playoffs and getting to the second round than the Lakers do next season, as both teams currently stand.

The Bucks with Bogut are so much more balanced than the Lakers. If Ford is back, you have a fantastic point guard, you've got a terrific shooter in Redd, a defensive dunk machine in Desmond Mason, a nice set of role playing big men with Gadzuric, Joe Smith etc. Bring back Toni Kukoc. You've got a top 5 center in the league most likely in Andrew Bogut, who is going to rebound, block shots, and score in the post for you, as well as free up shots for your said terrific shooter.

How are you going to stop Michael Redd next season? You put him on the same side of the floor as Bogut, and it's all over.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Reason Bogut's Mad at Kobe*

Link?

Did Kobe appologize for missing the meeting? Or did he just leave Bogut hanging?

Regardless, if this is true, then it proves that Bogut knows more about Kobe than a lot of you people think.

Since you don't have a link, this should probably just be merged back into the other thread, because the discussion is going to be exactly the same.


----------



## sherwin (Mar 21, 2005)

*Re: Reason Bogut's Mad at Kobe*

Do we need to have two threads about this? He's not even drafted yet and his comments get this much attention heh


----------



## nima86 (Jul 30, 2002)

*Re: Reason Bogut's Mad at Kobe*

apologize for wat goin to be with his sick wife instead of talkin to a college player


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



futuristxen said:


> I have a feeling that Milwaukee has a better chance of making the playoffs and getting to the second round than the Lakers do next season, as both teams currently stand.
> 
> The Bucks with Bogut are so much more balanced than the Lakers. If Ford is back, you have a fantastic point guard, you've got a terrific shooter in Redd, a defensive dunk machine in Desmond Mason, a nice set of role playing big men with Gadzuric, Joe Smith etc. Bring back Toni Kukoc. You've got a top 5 center in the league most likely in Andrew Bogut, who is going to rebound, block shots, and score in the post for you, as well as free up shots for your said terrific shooter.
> 
> How are you going to stop Michael Redd next season? You put him on the same side of the floor as Bogut, and it's all over.


Man, i've got to upgrade my sig... "Semi-pure-hater" my ***!!! :clap:


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Reason Bogut's Mad at Kobe*

auto-censored


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Reason Bogut's Mad at Kobe*



nima86 said:


> apologize for wat goin to be with his sick wife instead of talkin to a college player



Yeah. Or at least explaining what was going on. It's called common courtesy. When you bring people that far out of their way, it's poor hospitality to just leave them hanging, for whatever reason.

I find it hard to believe that Kobe didn't offer some sort of appology or explanation.

But then I guess given all the suprises we've had from Kobe, it wouldn't be shocking if he didn't either.


And again. how about a link?


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Lamar Odom and Caron Butler are not great players. Not even close. Amare Stoudemire, Dywane Wade, Tracy McGrady and Tim Duncan are great players. 

Odom and Butler are merely good, albeit wildly inconsistent players.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



PauloCatarino said:


> Man, i've got to upgrade my sig... "Semi-pure-hater" my ***!!! :clap:



Hey you know, and I know the Lakers have to make some moves this offseason. I think they will. But as things stand, the West is too stacked to expect too much next year from the Lakers. At least I semi-conceded that the Lakers might make the playoffs, because I think Kobe is going to be in the best shape of his life next year.

My post was more about the Bucks than the Lakers though.


----------



## Halo (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Its amazing how one comment on Kobe balloons to 12 and growing pages of commentaries.


bear23 said:


> Thank Bogut for keeping Kobe in news at this time of the year.


And that about sums this thing up! :biggrin:


----------



## Halo (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: Reason Bogut's Mad at Kobe*

While Kobe should've apologized or least had a representative offer an explanation, it is a family emergency.

Hypothetically, IF Bogut holds a grudge for this than its just absolutely petty. That's a pregnant wife he has to tend to, its two lives that should supersede all other things he's got planned. 

Of course it could've been handled more professionally, but once again, IF this is why Bogut is mad its very petty.


----------



## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Reason Bogut's Mad at Kobe*



Halo said:


> While Kobe should've apologized or least had a representative offer an explanation, it is a family emergency.
> 
> Hypothetically, IF Bogut holds a grudge for this than its just absolutely petty. That's a pregnant wife he has to tend to, its two lives that should supersede all other things he's got planned.
> 
> Of course it could've been handled more professionally, but once again, IF this is why Bogut is mad its very petty.


True...but that isn't the reason Bogut said what he said. He said what he said based on the way Kobe carries himself and plays the game of basketball.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Reason Bogut's Mad at Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> True...but that isn't the reason Bogut said what he said. He said what he said based on the way Kobe carries himself and plays the game of basketball.


Bligh me! And i thought Bogut was supposed to meet Kobe to take a few pointers about how to conduct oneself in the League...


----------



## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

*Re: Reason Bogut's Mad at Kobe*

There's really no need to branch this as a separate topic. Merged.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Does anybody REALLY need a reason to be mad at Kobe? I mean isn't it just a priori for most people? :biggrin:


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Reason Bogut's Mad at Kobe*



KokoTheMonkey said:


> There's really no need to branch this as a separate topic. Merged.


OT: Great sig, koko... :biggrin:


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



SeaNet said:


> Why does everyone think this is such a bad thing? I think its great. I love seeing Bogut come in afraid of no one. I think HE'S gonna give KOBE a thing or two to think about. This dude is tough. He doesn't back down from anyone. I've seen him get angry in a game. He takes over. You guys watch.
> 
> PS He's also right.


Kobe Bryant 6'6" 235
Andrew Bogut 7' 245

Kobe Bryant, one of the best wings to arrive in the NBA since Jordan.
Andrew Bogut, the best white center drafted in the top 3 since Raef Lafrentz.

I may not like Kobe, but as a wagering man I got my money on him throwing a moneyshot right in Bogut's face.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



ehmunro said:


> Kobe Bryant 6'6" 235
> Andrew Bogut 7' 245
> 
> Kobe Bryant, one of the best wings to arrive in the NBA since Jordan.
> ...


A moneyshot you say? Isn't that a foul?


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



ehmunro said:


> Andrew Bogut, the best white center drafted in the top 3 since Raef Lafrentz.


How about the best center drafted in the top 3 since...Shaq?


----------



## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



futuristxen said:


> How about the best center drafted in the top 3 since...Shaq?


Couldn't be......Bogut is white, REMEMBER!


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



futuristxen said:


> How about the best center drafted in the top 3 since...Shaq?



Maybe I'm just a stickler, but technically speaking, wouldn't that be Alonzo Mourning? :biggrin:

Let alone guys like Yao Ming & Marcus Camby, and soon to be centers like Tyson Chandler & Dwight Howard and PFINOs like Duncan. You'll excuse me if I don't mail in my Andrew Bogut hall of fame vote _quite yet_. You guys are as bad as the Celtics fans that have been calling Delonte West the best young point guard in the NBA. Sheesh.


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Man, I wonder how Kobe feels about all this. NBA players hate him, and now, a college player who hasn't done a thing in the NBA criticizes him. Bogut could be a great player, but that has nothing to do with it. Its a lot like how you are supposed to respect the veterans. Bogut hasn't done anything yet in the NBA, so until he does, he can't talk about what Kobe HAS done in the NBA. When he says something, its different because players like Kobe are going to amongst his peers next season. Also, how he can have a go at Kobe for being selfish yet glorify Shaq is beyond me. Because Shaq is a big man and leads teams to championships? Kobe should have held onto Shaq to win another championship? He didn't "lead" the Lakers to championships the last two years. Some leader he was when his "sidekick" worked harder, trained harder, played harder and did more to lead the Lakers himself for the last 2 seasons. Kobe maybe arrogant, but wasn't Shaq the one who delayed his toe surgery so he could sit out the begning of the season? And Shaq the one who wanted a ludicrious contract extension when he was being way overpaid?


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



ehmunro said:


> Maybe I'm just a stickler, but technically speaking, wouldn't that be Alonzo Mourning? :biggrin:
> 
> Let alone guys like Yao Ming & Marcus Camby, and soon to be centers like Tyson Chandler & Dwight Howard and PFINOs like Duncan. You'll excuse me if I don't mail in my Andrew Bogut hall of fame vote _quite yet_. You guys are as bad as the Celtics fans that have been calling Delonte West the best young point guard in the NBA. Sheesh.


Maybe I'm just a stickler, but wasn't Zo drafted in the SAME YEAR as Shaq?

And Tyson Chandler, Marcus Camby, Dwight Howard, and Tim Duncan are all power forwards.

Basically saying that Bogut is the best center drafted in the top 3 since Shaq is saying that he is better than Yao. Which I agree with.

But I would hate to be a stickler.

If you consider Camby a center, then that still doesn't matter because I think Bogut is going to be better. At the very least more durable. Camby is on his third team for a reason. He was basically a bust for Toronto.

And I think there's something a little diffrent between calling the number 1 pick in the NBA draft in any year possibly a very good player, than calling Delonte West the best point guard in that draft. Frankly I'm suprised such a "stickler" wouldn't be able to grasp the nuances of that diffrence.

Actually the more I think about it, the less I think you're not quite the stickler you preport yourself to be.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Drewbs said:


> Also, how he can have a go at Kobe for being selfish yet glorify Shaq is beyond me. Because Shaq is a big man and leads teams to championships?



Look at that. You answered your own question.


----------



## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

well, for those who think bogut criticizing kobe is the same as bbb.net posters criticizing kobe, they're wrong. of course we all have opinions on kobe, good or bad, but we ain't about to publically bash him(posting on forums yes, telling it to the media, no). when you purblically criticize someone it shows very little class, especially for a rookie who's done nothing in the league yet.

i've criticized kobe, i've criticized t-mac, but that's me sharing my opinion between friends. i wasn't calling kobe out in the media or anything. i have criticism, but then i also have respect, and i respect kobe, so i would never do something to disrespect him like that. having criticism is one thing, calling them out is another.

you think lebron would ever call someone out like that. lebron is the most talented player in the game but he'd never say anything like that. he would also come with with something classy and not fall to bait to reporter when asked who he hates. heck he's been publically criticized by MJ and he just responded saying "the man knows what he's talking about so that means i've got to work harder on my game". what humble guy.

bogut needs to carry himself better or he'll soon find a lot of enemies in the NBA. many players and coaches will take what he said (regarding the state of american basketball) personally and go at him hard. like so many ppl said, i expect him to get dunked on. :biggrin: 

again, it's not hypocracy, it's just him being a rookie needs as little enemies as he can.


----------



## jalen5 (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



futuristxen said:


> I have a feeling that Milwaukee has a better chance of making the playoffs and getting to the second round than the Lakers do next season, as both teams currently stand.
> 
> The Bucks with Bogut are so much more balanced than the Lakers. If Ford is back, you have a fantastic point guard, you've got a terrific shooter in Redd, a defensive dunk machine in Desmond Mason, a nice set of role playing big men with Gadzuric, Joe Smith etc. Bring back Toni Kukoc. You've got a top 5 center in the league most likely in Andrew Bogut, who is going to rebound, block shots, and score in the post for you, as well as free up shots for your said terrific shooter.
> 
> How are you going to stop Michael Redd next season? You put him on the same side of the floor as Bogut, and it's all over.



So not only are you overhyping how good Bogut will be, but you are also now asking how Michael Redd is going to be stopped??? Umm, Redd's a good player, but he can be stopped, even with Bogut on the team. And I would take Yao to build around before I would build around Bogut. The only reason the Bucks even have a chance of going further than the Lakers is b/c the Bucks are lucky enough to be in the Eastern Conference, which is not nearly as deep as the West.


----------



## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

c_dog said:


> well, for those who think bogut criticizing kobe is the same as bbb.net posters criticizing kobe, they're wrong. of course we all have opinions on kobe, good or bad, but we ain't about to publically bash him(posting on forums yes, telling it to the media, no). when you purblically criticize someone it shows very little class, especially for a rookie who's done nothing in the league yet.
> 
> i've criticized kobe, i've criticized t-mac, but that's me sharing my opinion between friends. i wasn't calling kobe out in the media or anything. i have criticism, but then i also have respect, and i respect kobe, so i would never do something to disrespect him like that. having criticism is one thing, calling them out is another.
> 
> ...


lebron just gets coaches fired. i think foreign people in general tend to speak their minds more than people in this country. what i got out of what he said and who knows how much of it was taken out of context or said in general converstation, was the overall knowledge he has for the american game and what the original dream team meant to the league and to the rest of the world. also the respect he has for shaq and duncan. maybe he could have danced around naming names of players he didnt care for but really who cares. its not like he said something that isnt true.


----------



## jalen5 (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



futuristxen said:


> How about the best center drafted in the top 3 since...Shaq?



Ummm... nope. Many PF's and Centers are interchangeable in the NBA nowadays-- Amare, Duncan, Jermaine O'Neal, etc. Bogut will not be as good as these players and many others. Yea, I know Amare and O'neal weren't drafted in the Top 3. But a players draft position doesn't mean anything. You are severely limiting the number of players Bogut can be compared to or regarded as better or worse than when you say he is the best center drafted in the Top 3 since Shaq. That could be true (if you think he will be better than Yao) but that doesn't mean much.


----------



## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



jalen5 said:


> Ummm... nope. Many PF's and Centers are interchangeable in the NBA nowadays-- Amare, Duncan, Jermaine O'Neal, etc. Bogut will not be as good as these players and many others. Yea, I know Amare and O'neal weren't drafted in the Top 3. But a players draft position doesn't mean anything. You are severely limiting the number of players Bogut can be compared to or regarded as better or worse than when you say he is the best center drafted in the Top 3 since Shaq. That could be true (if you think he will be better than Yao) but that doesn't mean much.


Every Center in the League (Even JO, Amare, and Duncan):

Shaquille O'Neal (33)- 22.9 ppg, 10.4 rpg, 2.7 apg
Tim Duncan (29)- 20.3 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.7 apg
Amare Stoudemire (23)- 26.0 ppg, 8.9 rpg, 1.6 bpg
Yao Ming (25)- 18.3 ppg, 8.4 rpg, 2.0 bpg
Ben Wallace (30)- 9.7 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 1.7 apg
Jermaine O'Neal (26)- 24.3 ppg, 8.8 rpg, 2.0 bpg
Eddy Curry (22)- 16.1 ppg, 5.4 rpg, .6 apg
Brad Miller (30)- 15.6 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 3.9 apg
Zydrunas Illgauskas (30)- 16.9 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 1.3 apg
Dwight Howard (20)- 12.0 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 1.7 bpg
Marcus Camby (31)- 10.3 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 2.3 apg
Jamaal Magloire (27)- 11.7, 8.9 rpg, 1.3 apg
Primoz Brezec (25)- 13.0 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 1.2 apg
Raef LaFrentz (28)- 11.1 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 1.2 apg
Erick Dampier (30)- 9.2 ppg, 8.5 rpg, .9 apg
Chris Kamen (24)- 9.1 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg
Nenad Krstic (21)- 10.0 ppg, 5.3 rpg, .8 bpg
Samuel Dalembert (24)- 8.2 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 1.7 bpg
Brendan Haywood (25)- 9.4 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 1.7 bpg
Kurt Thomas (31)- 11.5 ppg, 10.4 rpg, 2.0 apg
Dan Gadzuric (27)- 7.3 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 1.3 bpg
Joel Przybilla (26)- 6.4 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 2.1 bpg
Lorenzen Wright (31)- 9.6 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 1.1 apg
Chris Mihm (27)- 9.8 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.4 bpg
Michael Olowokandi (28)- 5.9 ppg, 5.2 rpg, .9 bpg
Rafael Araujo (25)- 3.3 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 0.3 apg
Jerome James (29)- 4.9 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 1.4 bpg
Jarron Collins (25)- 4.3 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 1.2 apg
Adonal Foyle (30)- 4.5 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 2.0 bpg
Jason Collier (27)- 5.7 ppg, 2.6 rpg, .3 apg

Right now, if Bogut comes in and puts up 12 and 10, he is a top 10 Center in the league. At the age of 20, there is no reason why he can't climb to the top 5 of this list, even in a few short years, especially with Shaq past his prime, Zydrunas breaking down, and Wallace and B. Miller both getting older.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



jalen5 said:


> Ummm... nope. Many PF's and Centers are interchangeable in the NBA nowadays-- Amare, Duncan, Jermaine O'Neal, etc. Bogut will not be as good as these players and many others. Yea, I know Amare and O'neal weren't drafted in the Top 3. But a players draft position doesn't mean anything. You are severely limiting the number of players Bogut can be compared to or regarded as better or worse than when you say he is the best center drafted in the Top 3 since Shaq. That could be true (if you think he will be better than Yao) but that doesn't mean much.



Do you know context?
The context of my comment was in response to someone who said he was the best white center drafted in the top 3 since Raef Lafrentz.

I simply removed the modifiers white and Raef Lafrentz, to see if it was still valid without the race issue coming in--and lo and behold it was.

It's amazing how little race really has to do with this conversation, but yet it keeps coming in, by people who are so upset by the color of Bogut's skin, for some unimaginable reason. He's not even american folks. I thought it was okay to be white if you were a foriegner?


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



futuristxen said:


> Maybe I'm just a stickler, but wasn't Zo drafted in the SAME YEAR as Shaq?


Right, _after_ Shaq, definitely making him the best center selected in the top 3 _since_ Shaq. :razz:



futuristxen said:


> And Tyson Chandler, Marcus Camby, Dwight Howard, and Tim Duncan are all power forwards.


Is K-Mart Denver's center? I was under the impression that Camby was the 5, technically speaking. As for Chandler, note that he fell into the "future center" category. He was only a 4 because Eddy Curry was the 5. I can well see Chicago moving Curry in a sign & trade and putting Chandler at the 5 (presuming that Curry can come back at all).



futuristxen said:


> Basically saying that Bogut is the best center drafted in the top 3 since Shaq is saying that he is better than Yao. Which I agree with.


Well, put me in the "Until he shows me something in the show, I'm not declaring him the best center in the NBA" camp. Unlike Bogut, Yao's shown that he can play well in the show.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



ehmunro said:


> Right, _after_ Shaq, definitely making him the best center selected in the top 3 _since_ Shaq. :razz:


:laugh: You win this round!



> Well, put me in the "Until he shows me something in the show, I'm not declaring him the best center in the NBA" camp. Unlike Bogut, Yao's shown that he can play well in the show.


Oddly enough I live in the "Show-me" state. But yes obviously, right now we're dealing with predictions. Prognistications. Yada yada. If you're in the camp of "I don't believe any young player is good until he is good" then you really shouldn't be even bothering to comment on my predictions, because you honestly don't know if I'm right or not, until it happens.

pwned! :tongue:


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

the thing about shaq / kobe is that it's really, in the end, an issue of personalities and egos and insecurities (and money and power), clearly, on both sides. throw in buss and jackson, and you've got a tangled web indeed. it's just STUPID for bogut to interject himself into this, and make it (at least make it appear to be) soley about kobe's arrogance. STUPID with a capital S. the guy hasn't experienced anything yet, and he's commenting on the interpersonal relationships (and team dynamics) between guys who won 3 titles together and played together for 7 years? add the side issue of bogut's own kobe story, and it just seems like petty whining from a dumb kid. comment on guys getting arrested, guys playing a certain style, comment generically, but to get in the middle of interpersonal stuff when he has zero experience is just dumb. i can't see why people are defending him, other than the fact that they personally feel the same way. even if you do, acknowledge that it would be dumb (as c_dog has said) to go public with it when you are simply speculating and taking sides, having proven nothing and been through nothing yet yourself (yet soon entering the same arena).


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



futuristxen said:


> Look at that. You answered your own question.


Because he led the Lakers to championships gives him the pass to being a selfish, whiny *****? If Bogut is going to talk about the attitude problems in the NBA, then glorifying Shaq is beyond me. Its not about winning championships or not, hes criticizing players for being selfish and caring too much about money and themselves. He ripped Kobe for his huge ego and for being selfish, not for leading the Lakers to mediocrity.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

kflo said:


> the thing about shaq / kobe is that it's really, in the end, an issue of personalities and egos and insecurities (and money and power), clearly, on both sides. throw in buss and jackson, and you've got a tangled web indeed. it's just STUPID for bogut to interject himself into this, and make it (at least make it appear to be) soley about kobe's arrogance. STUPID with a capital S. the guy hasn't experienced anything yet, and he's commenting on the interpersonal relationships (and team dynamics) between guys who won 3 titles together and played together for 7 years? add the side issue of bogut's own kobe story, and it just seems like petty whining from a dumb kid. comment on guys getting arrested, guys playing a certain style, comment generically, but to get in the middle of interpersonal stuff when he has zero experience is just dumb. i can't see why people are defending him, other than the fact that they personally feel the same way. even if you do, acknowledge that it would be dumb (as c_dog has said) to go public with it when you are simply speculating and taking sides, having proven nothing and been through nothing yet yourself (yet soon entering the same arena).



I don't understand why you guys act like this is some big mystery about Kobe kicking Shaq and Phil out of LA with the help of Buss. It's like you've been living under a rock all season. What Bogut said is just rehashing what is common knowledge and has been being repeated in the press ad nauseum.

If Miami gets into the finals, all you're going to hear about is how Kobe kicked Shaq out, and now he's watching Shaq try to win the title, while he is wondering who the lakers are going to draft.

And you act like Bogut is the first person to ever comment on this. When plenty of players have already offered their opinions.

If you are a basketball fan, you have an opinion on this, and plenty of people have said things about it.

I don't see why Bogut can't have his opinion and express it publicacly.

Ray Allen said far worse. Allen Iverson has said things about Kobe. I'm sure if you asked Dwayne Wade you'd get a comment. Same with Damon Jones. Heck, you could probably get a comment out of probably anyone in the league, and 90 percent of them are going to say exactly what Bogut said.

Which is that they would have done everything they could to make it work. Because at the end of the day Shaq=Rings. And at the end of the day that's all anyone cares about that plays.

I'm sure Shaq is pleased that Bogut paid him respect. And really that's the only guy most guys in the league seem to care about getting respect from. He's pretty much the godfather of the entire league right now.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Drewbs said:


> Because he led the Lakers to championships gives him the pass to being a selfish, whiny *****? If Bogut is going to talk about the attitude problems in the NBA, then glorifying Shaq is beyond me. Its not about winning championships or not, hes criticizing players for being selfish and caring too much about money and themselves. He ripped Kobe for his huge ego and for being selfish, not for leading the Lakers to mediocrity.


Think what you want but all Shaq cares about is championships. He doesn't care that his numbers have dropped off. He just wants to get another ring. He's said it himself, he needs that 6th ring to justify his greatness to his kids.

There's two kinds of selfishness at play here. Shaq's selfish about winning.
Kobe is selfish about his numbers. Or he was. I think this season has been the lesson he's been aching to be taught for several years now, which is why you hear about him wanting Phil back.

Bogut glorified Tim Duncan as well in that comment.
I don't see any problem with glorifiying the two guys who have been winning all of the rings since Jordan, and villifying the guy who broke up a good situation for himself.

Kobe could be bothered by Shaq's laziness all he wanted to, but Shaq still got them to the Finals. A lazy shaq is still better than what the Lakers have now.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

the thing your missing future, is that none of them have any rings, and none of them have played 7 years with shaq.

again, this was about shaq and kobe not getting along. about disrespect and insecurities and money and power. that kobe was the last one standing in la doesn't mean that he's responsible for everything. that's just dumb. they played together, they won together, and things disolved. for the peanut gallery to say they would have sucked it up and let shaq and phil or whoever do whatever they wanted for however long they wanted simply because they were more important is ridiculous. 

bogut knows nothing about this, knows nothing about being in kobe's shoes, knows nothing about the business of basketball. for him to comment from the bleachers shows stupidity.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Future, baby, I just wanted to thank you for rockin' this thread.

:cheers:


----------



## bear23 (Feb 28, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



futuristxen said:


> Think what you want but all Shaq cares about is championships. He doesn't care that his numbers have dropped off. He just wants to get another ring. He's said it himself, he needs that 6th ring to justify his greatness to his kids.
> 
> There's two kinds of selfishness at play here. Shaq's selfish about winning.
> Kobe is selfish about his numbers. Or he was. I think this season has been the lesson he's been aching to be taught for several years now, which is why you hear about him wanting Phil back.
> ...


Reps for you..


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

For the record, I really like Bogut. I think he is just probably going off of what other people say too much on this one. Kobe is not really the prototype selfish egotistical player that Bogut is pointing out. I think Iverson or Pierce are better examples of that. I think Shaq is actually a better example of it too. He is lazy, milks his injuries, is more arrogant than any player in the league in my opinion, consistently says stupid things about other players in interviews, and is demanding a huge raise on his contract, despite the fact that he already makes a ridiculous amount of money. 

It's okay though. Bogut probably isn't that familiar with the NBA yet, my guess is that he'll learn to respect Kobe a lot more than he does now, in due time.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

And for those saying Bogut will be a bust, I don't know if you thought that before he said these things or if that's kind of a knee-jerk reaction, but Bogut is a player. He is probably going to be a more consistent version of Pau Gasol. That's far from a bust, considering how good Pau is when he is on.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

all shaq cares about are his championships. oh yeah, and his money, and his status as the man in la. again, it's stupid to put this all on kobe. they were both too insecure ultimately to go further together.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

kflo said:


> that kobe was the last one standing in la doesn't mean that he's responsible for everything. that's just dumb.


You can call it that. But it's the conclusion everyone has drawn. Especially driven home because of Shaq's success in Miami. Remember when it came out that Kobe had leaked Shaq's name to the police during his rape trial? And remember all the comments that came out about that from a wide range of players?

Remember Ray Allen's comments about Kobe last preseason?

Obviously you Laker fans who have poured over every detail of everything with the goal of justifying or shifting the blame off of Kobe are going to feel upset about what Bogut said. But it's nothing that hasn't been said already. And I find the uproar a little silly. Let's be honest, none of us reaaaallly give a crip about this sort of thing. But it's a slow day, there's no game today. And one of the best ways to cure that is to start jabbering about Kobe one way or the other.

I wonder if we can get Bogut to rule on Kobe vs. T-mac while we're at it. Or maybe he can say something bad about Lebron not making the playoffs. 



> for the peanut gallery to say they would have sucked it up and let shaq and phil or whoever do whatever they wanted for however long they wanted simply because they were more important is ridiculous.


No. The only thing ridiculous is all of the people who already didn't like Bogut, using this comment to act like it's radically changed their minds on him, when the only thing they know or care about is his skin color. That to me is the most ridiculous thing. After all of the recent years of the diversity of NBA talent coming from every walk of life, to still have hang ups on skin color one way or the other, that in this thread has been what has been most ridiculous.

To me the outrage has exceeded the supposed crime. Not that I have a problem with that. I'm a big fan of well written outrage. Unfounded righteous indignation is one of the funnier things you can get on a message board.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Also, Kobe was always about the bling bling. Kobe was the one carrying them in the playoffs a lot of times. Kobe would save himself for the end of the game a lot of times, knowing that his team would need him then more than any other time, because Shaq can't finish games with the ball in his hands. If Kobe was all about the numbers, he wouldn't have done those things. 

It's cool though. In the next few years, we'll see how the Lakers-Heat deal really worked out, because if the Heat extend Shaq and pay him what he wants, he could bring that franchise down for many years. If Shaq is out of shape and always injured, making an unreal amount of money, do you think Wade is going to re-sign? We'll see I guess, I doubt it though.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

kflo said:


> all shaq cares about are his championships. oh yeah, and his money, and his status as the man in la. again, it's stupid to put this all on kobe. they were both too insecure ultimately to go further together.


Exactly my point. Maybe Shaq is just more likeable so people justify his arrogance and magnify Kobe's. Let's be honest, both of these guys are too arrogant for their own good, but atleast Kobe works hard day in and day out, offseason or midseason. Can't say the same for Shaq, who milks injuries and makes ridiculous contract demands. I guess being a comedian helps your case a little bit.


----------



## Scinos (Jun 10, 2003)

Jeez, this thread rages on, 150+ posts and counting. Only a Kobe thread could be so overblown. :no:

Should have seen it coming though, this is exactly what happened when Ray Allen made comments about Kobe. Ray just tells it like it is about Kobe, and people on this board started ripping into Ray, to defend Kobe. Sound familiar to this thread ?


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

most people could give a rats arse about bogut, and know very little about him. other than him feeling like he knows how nba superstars with 3 titles are supposed to act. lets see how willing bogut is to bag groceries after he's won 3 titles and feels disrespected by his teammate. as joe peci said, i don't shine shoes no more. but yes, it's stupid to bring race into the discussion.

personally, i could care less about bogut. i don't know enough about him to draw many conclusions. i don't think this comment was very smart, singling out a guy who has done far more than he's likely to accomplish (and that's no insult). there's a personal thing here, and bogut just sounds like he's lashing out, which sounds rather petty. then again, shaq held a grudge against david robinson his whole career for an encounter that happened when shaq was in h.s. bogut's just going into the fishbowl. he knows nothing about kobe's situation, or shaq's situation, or how they treated each other, except for what we read in the papers. he sounded like kobe's sole responsibility was to do whatever shaq wanted him to be. and that's completely unrealistic. 

also, ray allen has had personal issues with kobe before. and others. that he opened his mouth should justify nothing.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Kflo do you really sense malice in the comments?
I thought they were pretty tame really. I don't read the venom in the comments that you do. He just sounds like he's shooting the bull with a reporter during an interview. I don't see him saying anything completely terrible and mean spirited.

I mean, if he was mad about the something else Kobe did, to him personally, why wouldn't he just bring that up directly?

Having Kobe mad at him isn't going to really affect his career on any level. He kissed up to Shaq and Duncan, who are the two best players at his position. But Kobe he'll never have to guard, and chances are good will only see two times a year.


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> Kobe Bryant: Coming to an NBA Draft Lottery near you.


 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH !!!!!!


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



futuristxen said:


> Think what you want but all Shaq cares about is championships. He doesn't care that his numbers have dropped off. He just wants to get another ring. He's said it himself, he needs that 6th ring to justify his greatness to his kids.
> 
> There's two kinds of selfishness at play here. Shaq's selfish about winning.
> Kobe is selfish about his numbers. Or he was. I think this season has been the lesson he's been aching to be taught for several years now, which is why you hear about him wanting Phil back.
> ...


I didn't say anything about Tim Duncan, HE epitomizes what a superstar should be in the NBA. Shaq doesn't. Duncan is quiet but confident, Shaq is loud and arrogant. You don't hear Duncan talk trash about other players in the league, but Shaq bickers about Kobe like a 5 year old. And to say that Shaq is selfish about winning? Maybe this season, of course he is going to put in more effort in spite of Kobe and the Lakers. Have you forgotten the last few years? Shaq has milked the Lakers for all they were worth. He had to traded in order for him to get his act together. He isn't selfish about winning, hes just selfish about himself. Here is the same guy who put off his toe injury so he could extend his summer, claiming since he got "injured on company time, he'll heal on company time," THATS selfish about winning? He can be an unselfish player on the court, but thats about it. His attitude is just as bad if not worse than Kobe's. You don't ever remember hearing about Kobe being out of shape over the offseason. All you hear is how hard he trains, how he always works to elevate his game, and every year he comes in and hes added something or improved something else. That type of commitment is more about just numbers. What about Shaq? All, he has to do is keep his weight down and work on his free throws, and he does neither. If Kobe didn't care about winning, he wouldn't have been bothered by Shaq's indifference. If he cared only about numbers, he could have jacked up 30 shots a game this season. He wasn't even the ballhog he was projected to be this season. Sure he dominated the ball a lot, but what star guard doesn't? 

Chances are the Lakers wre not going to win another ring, and after giving Shaq that huge extension, who is to say that Shaq would not come in this last season roughly the size of a baby whale? Then Kobe walks for nothing, and you are stuck with Shaq and his 30+ mil per year playing 60 games per season for the next step in the Lakers franchise. A lazy Shaq is better than what they have now, but what they have now has more potential to turn into a championship team. Shaq is past his prime, he can still be dominant, but he will not get any better from here on out. He has not kept himself in the necesary condition to be the same player that he was 2-3 years ago for the next few seasons.


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Drewbs said:


> I didn't say anything about Tim Duncan, HE epitomizes what a superstar should be in the NBA. Shaq doesn't. Duncan is quiet but confident, Shaq is loud and arrogant. You don't hear Duncan talk trash about other players in the league, but Shaq bickers about Kobe like a 5 year old. And to say that Shaq is selfish about winning? Maybe this season, of course he is going to put in more effort in spite of Kobe and the Lakers. Have you forgotten the last few years? Shaq has milked the Lakers for all they were worth. He had to traded in order for him to get his act together. He isn't selfish about winning, hes just selfish about himself. Here is the same guy who put off his toe injury so he could extend his summer, claiming since he got "injured on company time, he'll heal on company time," THATS selfish about winning? He can be an unselfish player on the court, but thats about it. His attitude is just as bad if not worse than Kobe's. You don't ever remember hearing about Kobe being out of shape over the offseason. All you hear is how hard he trains, how he always works to elevate his game, and every year he comes in and hes added something or improved something else. That type of commitment is more about just numbers. What about Shaq? All, he has to do is keep his weight down and work on his free throws, and he does neither. If Kobe didn't care about winning, he wouldn't have been bothered by Shaq's indifference. If he cared only about numbers, he could have jacked up 30 shots a game this season. He wasn't even the ballhog he was projected to be this season. Sure he dominated the ball a lot, but what star guard doesn't?
> 
> Chances are the Lakers wre not going to win another ring, and after giving Shaq that huge extension, who is to say that Shaq would not come in this last season roughly the size of a baby whale? Then Kobe walks for nothing, and you are stuck with Shaq and his 30+ mil per year playing 60 games per season for the next step in the Lakers franchise. A lazy Shaq is better than what they have now, but what they have now has more potential to turn into a championship team. Shaq is past his prime, he can still be dominant, but he will not get any better from here on out. He has not kept himself in the necesary condition to be the same player that he was 2-3 years ago for the next few seasons.


cosigned

Shaq pissed away two titles and his extension by not working out. However, he shifted the blame to Kobe and everyone turns a blind eye to *facts* . Maybe Kobe's dislike for Shaq came from his desire to win championships and he knew that would be impossible with $30 million of cap space sitting on the IR.


----------



## Shabadoo (Feb 12, 2005)

Well some people already know how I feel about Bogut, as an Australia, but equally as a basketball fan. However, I'm not about to defend him here. His comments were pretty dumb. I say this not because they are or are not correct, but because he is not one to make them (yet).

This annoys me because two of my favourite white guy foreign big men have decided to go insane with calling out.


I'd like to see Bogut and Dirk sit down and just call out each and every one of us. They should run an Ebert and Roeper style show, where they critique human beings instead of films.


Bogut: Dirk, what do you think about George W. Bush?

Dirk: Look at the situation in Sudan. He was a step slow on everything. He never really got involved in it. The bottom line is, we have to get something out of our central government position.

Andrew, what do you think about Phil Jackson?

Bogut: Oh I think it's a gift to play for someone like that. If they told me to buy him groceries, I don't care, I buy him groceries. If he asked me to wrestle a Tasmanian Devil with my bare hands, while drinking 17 cans of VB, while driving me beat up Holden Ute down the dusty road to Alice Springs, while simultaneously grilling five steaks on the Barbie, while watching footie, while shaving with stray, sharp pieces of bloody glass and listening to ACDC and the Skyhook’s greatest hits, I don't care, I'd do it..... Actually, it's what real Aussie men like me do anyways, mate.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

future, i didn't say there was necessarily malice. it seems strange that he singles him out the way he did, and combined with the story about their own personal history, it sounds like petty lashing out. 

it may sound tame, except when you consider that here is a yet to be drafted player singling out a superstar player who's had alot of success for being a symbol of what's wrong with the league (especially in the context of arrogance, while he's holding up shaq as the beacon of what's good). it just seems odd. and dumb. and unneccessary.


----------



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

wow. if you think kobe caught the christian, wait to see whats in store for the bucks next season. really all he is doing is giving kobe a reason to amp his game up (focus on a new challenge), and when that happens teams get buried with the quickness.


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



sherako said:


> wow. if you think kobe caught the christian, wait to see whats in store for the bucks next season. really all he is doing is giving kobe a reason to amp his game up (focus on a new challenge), and when that happens teams get buried with the quickness.


I'm sure Bogut is shaking in his little Australian booties.


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Australians in general are pretty damn athletic...their rugby teams own and their cricket team is the absolute king...yet there's something more than just the ability...it's the Australian mean streak. Futuristxen hit it on the head by proclaiming that Bogut wasn't a "nancy boy" center. From watching Australian cricket and rugby teams for some time now, it's apparent that as far as sports go, they are competitive to the point of being amongst the baddest mother f**kers to ever hit a court, a pitch or a field. Bogut might smile a lot but he looks like he has a real fiery, almost sadistic side to him. Heck from what I've seen, I wouldn't be surprised if he leads all rookies in techs next year. 

Now, for all you haters turned psychics, let's do some analysis of past drafts. So in this analysis, we'll be looking at centers/power forwards who were top 3 picks and we'll see how they fared....
2000 : Kenyon Martin, Stromile Swift
2001 : Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler, Pau Gasol
2002 : Yao Ming
2003 : Darko Milicic
2004 : Dwight Howard, Emeka Okafor

Immediately, we can disqualify Kwame, Chandler, D-Ho and Milicic. They didn't have the experience or conditioning that Bogut already has coming into the league. Howard has shown that he will be great. Brown remains a bust/mystery and Darko hasn't had any real minutes for anyone to make meaningful judgement of his ability ( regardless of you 2 cent pundits who keep writing him off). Chandler only recently has finally begun making an impact but has much more developing to do. 
Now, of the remaning, both K-mart and Stromile came into the league as athletic guys who were ferocious defenders and fierce competitors. None of them ever had the reputation in college as low post nightmares. Yet from a scoring viewpoint, both have faired quite well, K-Mart very well in fact, even though much of that should be rightly accredited to Jason Kidd. 
So now we're left with Yao, Gasol and Okafor. Yao had conditioning issues from way back but to his credit has done well and is developing into a force to be reckoned with in the league, especially with the presence of T-Mac. Pau Gasol has put up impressive numbers and came in with a great reputation for tearing it up in Europe. Yet he lacks the ferocity or the pure toughness you need to be a real low post threat. Okafor was never an offensive force in college but in his rookie season, he put up an impressive 15 ppg.
So now we turn to Bogut. The first thing you see is his size. This guy is massive. over 7' and close to 250 lbs, but more than that this guy has the long arms and the massive shoulders to clean up the boards and get the blocks. He also has a very low center of gravity and excellent lower body strength, something low post scorers really need. His post moves are more polished than any top center/pf prospect that's been drafted in the past 5 years and he shot an incredible 64% in college. He has size, he has skill and he has the conditioning. Yet there's more. In terms of basketball IQ, he has that young Derrick Coleman, Chris Webber vibe in him in knowing how to pick and choose his spots and being an excellent passer. 
Yet of all of these, the most important thing is his tenacity and his mean streak. This guy is almost like the second coming of Charles Oakley in some ways in that he's just a banger. This guy loves to bump in the post and take and give beatings down low. He rebounds ferociously and contests anything thrown anywhere near him. The first time I saw him, I immediately looked for that famed Australian rage, and I saw it in almost everything he did on the court. 
This guy is a bad bad man. I won't go out on a limb and throw out stats but I have a feeling he's going to be something in this league. A lot of you guys just don't know how ferocious Aussies can be. Don't let the color of someone's skin fool you, because I know that if Bogut was black, the vast majority of you haters would be drooling over him.


----------



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



JNice said:


> I'm sure Bogut is shaking in his little Australian booties.


it won't matter what he is doing, when kobe drops those nuts in his mouth. i'd laugh if kobe gave him the finger wave.



> This guy is a bad bad man.


of course, being born in a penal colony will do that to ya



> I won't go out on a limb and throw out stats but I have a feeling he's going to be something in this league. A lot of you guys just don't know how ferocious Aussies can be. Don't let the color of someone's skin fool you, because I know that if Bogut was black, the vast majority of you haters would be drooling over him.


yah he's gonna be something alright, that something being a backup bigman. just shut the hell up man damn about race and everything. spittin that bootychatter.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

I'd be worried about Kobe if he was worried about responding to the call-out of a rookie on a lottery team. I doubt he cares at all. A top 5 player of all time has been running his mouth all year about him, and Kobe hasn't cared one damn bit. I doubt he even acknowledges Bogut, unless he is asked about it, in which case he'll probably just shrug it off.


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



sherako said:


> it won't matter what he is doing, when kobe drops those nuts in his mouth. i'd laugh if kobe gave him the finger wave.
> 
> 
> of course, being born in a penal colony will do that to ya
> ...


 Sherako, you know that a swingman can only get his nuts in a post player's face when they put their hands up like pussies, trying to draw a foul. With Bogut, you can be sure that he'll try and block the shot and if he can't he'll just slam Kobe. I doubt he'd let himself be put on a poster, even if it meant being called for a flagrant....not that that's a bad thing...


----------



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I'd be worried about Kobe if he was worried about responding to the call-out of a rookie on a lottery team. I doubt he cares at all. A top 5 player of all time has been running his mouth all year about him, and Kobe hasn't cared one damn bit. I doubt he even acknowledges Bogut, unless he is asked about it, in which case he'll probably just shrug it off.


 thats the beauty of kobe. he doesn't run his mouth in the media, spout off some nonsense. he will make his statement in the game, and bogut will feel it this year. if not him, the whole bucks team.


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



sherako said:



> it won't matter what he is doing, when kobe drops those nuts in his mouth. i'd laugh if kobe gave him the finger wave.
> 
> 
> of course, being born in a penal colony will do that to ya
> ...


 I'm not white, if that's what you're thinking. I also stand by what I said.


----------



## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



sherako said:


> thats the beauty of kobe. he doesn't run his mouth in the media, spout off some nonsense.


No...he only spouts off behind the scenes, and gets the greatest coach of all time fired, and one of the greatest bigman of all traded. True Beauty!


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



sherako said:


> thats the beauty of kobe. he doesn't run his mouth in the media, spout off some nonsense. he will make his statement in the game, and bogut will feel it this year. if not him, the whole bucks team.


 Yup, he won't run off his mouth to the media but he has no problem randomly bringing up Shaq to cover his own ***


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

You Kobe homers are so hilariously relentless...when will you realise that it's a losing battle you're fighting ?


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

And what about letting the whole "Hunting for Mexican Girls" fiasco blow up in the middle of the media ? Oh yeah, he doesn't say it himself, but let's his agent let the bomb loose right ?


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

and just so you know, I dislike Shaq very much as well.


----------



## Cammo (May 24, 2005)

> Well some people already know how I feel about Bogut, as an Australia, but equally as a basketball fan. However, I'm not about to defend him here. His comments were pretty dumb. I say this not because they are or are not correct, but because he is not one to make them (yet).
> 
> This annoys me because two of my favourite white guy foreign big men have decided to go insane with calling out.
> 
> ...


I was waiting for a fellow aussie to make a post :clap: I do think that it was rather silly for him to be dropping names like that, it really doesnt do you any good IMO. However, all the kicking and screaming that is going on about it is just completely ridiculous. The man was asked a question, he answered it with honesty and truthfullness and even provided an (somewhat unecessary) example. If answering a question and not running away like most big white stiffs in the NBA would is a crime then by all means shoot him. Bogut's opinion is relfective of what most people outside of America think of the American game. Yeh we know you've got the talent, we know you've got the power and we even know that American basketball players are generally the best in the world, its just too bad that basketball is a team game. 

I havent seen so many "Kobe is going to posterize/put nuts in Bogut's face" comments in all my life and i find it truely amusing. He is a C/PF for christs sake! If he doesnt get nuts in his face during the season then im going to question his own nuts! Kobe wont be the only one to dunk on him i can guarentee you! Bogut couldnt care less if Kobe put his nuts in his face all game and clogged up ESPN's top plays of the day because all that Bogut cares about is his team winning the game, not his stats.

What gets me the most is that a number of posters are saying that it is wrong for Bogut to comment on Kobe's attitude because he doesnt know him...How do you know that he doesnt know him? That is a total b/s assumption based on NOTHING. For all we know, Bogut may know Kobe.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I'd be worried about Kobe if he was worried about responding to the call-out of a rookie on a lottery team. I doubt he cares at all. A top 5 player of all time has been running his mouth all year about him, and Kobe hasn't cared one damn bit. I doubt he even acknowledges Bogut, unless he is asked about it, in which case he'll probably just shrug it off.


Yeah at the end of the day Kobe already knows what's on his table. Bogut isn't the first guy to say these things. Kobe knows until he is able to get his team back to that Shaq level, people are going to keep saying these things. I'm sure at most he just adds Bogut's comments to the pile.

But I have a feeling that Bogut is the very last thing on his mind this offseason after missing the playoffs.


----------



## jalen5 (Nov 19, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> For the record, I really like Bogut. I think he is just probably going off of what other people say too much on this one. Kobe is not really the prototype selfish egotistical player that Bogut is pointing out. I think Iverson or Pierce are better examples of that. I think Shaq is actually a better example of it too. He is lazy, milks his injuries, is more arrogant than any player in the league in my opinion, consistently says stupid things about other players in interviews, and is demanding a huge raise on his contract, despite the fact that he already makes a ridiculous amount of money.
> 
> It's okay though. Bogut probably isn't that familiar with the NBA yet, my guess is that he'll learn to respect Kobe a lot more than he does now, in due time.



Don't bring Iverson into this. That dude is one of the toughest players to ever play the game and plays with a TON of heart every game. No matter what people say or what happens off the court, Iverson comes to play every game and produces every year.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Max Payne said:


> You Kobe homers are so *hilariously relentless*...when will you realise that it's a losing battle you're fighting ?


You have like 7 of the past 11 posts in this thread, and 4 in a row. So who is relentless? Don't be silly, it's pretty obvious that both sides have their people who will stop at nothing to defend Kobe or bash him. Then there is a bunch of people in the middle who have their opinions one way or another.


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Sir Patchwork said:


> You have like 7 of the past 11 posts in this thread, and 4 in a row. So who is relentless? Don't be silly, it's pretty obvious that both sides have their people who will stop at nothing to defend Kobe or bash him. Then there is a bunch of people in the middle who have their opinions one way or another.


 I won't even bother defending myself...a guys talks about Kobe being smart about the media and I'm not supposed to respond right ? You're funny.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Max Payne said:


> I won't even bother defending myself...a guys talks about Kobe being smart about the media and I'm not supposed to respong right ? You're funny.


Your comment was that Kobe homers are relentless in defending him. So how is that any different from me saying that Kobe haters are relentless? If you looked at the numbers of the people posting in this thread and what side they took, my argument would be more credible. 

DHarris34Phan 20 
futuristxen 19 
Max Payne 9
jalen5 8 
kflo 7 
Sir Patchwork 7 

The top 3 or 4 there are siding with Bogut and against Kobe. Me and kflo are defending Kobe, although my arguments have been about how people let Shaq off way too easy, and he is a lot worse than Kobe in terms of arrogance and all of that. 

But if anything, the Kobe "haters" are relentless in bashing him.


----------



## jalen5 (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> No...he only spouts off behind the scenes, and gets the greatest coach of all time fired, and one of the greatest bigman of all traded. True Beauty!



I'm not so sure about calling Phil Jackson the best coach of all time. He's only coached 2 NBA teams. 1. The Bulls w/ the Best Player of All Time, Michael Jordan, and a pretty damn good player in Scottie Pippen in their prime. and 2. The Lakers with Kobe Bryant and Shaq. I don't think he is the only coach in the league that could have one with those teams. Hell, my high school coach could have won with those teams. Players are more important in the NBA than coaches are as a general rule. It is of my opinion that coaches that do well in the NBA usually just have a greater advantage in timing over other coaches in the league than advantage in terms of knowledge over the other coaches (for instance, Jackson getting the Bulls in their prime and Jackson getting the Lakers in Shaq's prime and a very quickly emerging Kobe Bryant). I'd love to see Phil take the Knicks job and see how he does with that team. I bet they don't drastically improve.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



futuristxen said:


> Noce was pretty good his first year. I didn't overrate Noc as much as I underrated Deng and Gordon. I was pleasantly suprised by Deng, who I think is the real best Bulls rookie. He and Noce are a dangerous duo.


He wasn't even one of the Bulls 5 best players.

And you were doing the same thing with him that you are doing here. Claiming that these are no-nonese guys that take no crap and whatnot and post very little about their basketball ability. I wouldn't be surprised if you've seen him play less than 5 times.


----------



## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Your comment was that Kobe homers are relentless in defending him. So how is that any different from me saying that Kobe haters are relentless? If you looked at the numbers of the people posting in this thread and what side they took, my argument would be more credible.
> 
> DHarris34Phan 20
> futuristxen 19
> ...


 I think the numbers are off skew till ALL the usual posters so up: thug immortal, IV, madskillz, xerixz, and so on.

Kobe does seems to get more open flak from a greater numbers of players then most. Shaq, Malone, Allen, and now Bogut. Maybe he creates the same sort of love/hate that he does in posters as he does with players. I think his comment about Shaq (whether you think it was just a scared comment or something more malicious) hurt him in the eyes of other players


----------



## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



sherako said:


> it won't matter what he is doing, when kobe drops those nuts in his mouth. i'd laugh if kobe gave him the finger wave.
> 
> 
> of course, being born in a penal colony will do that to ya
> ...


 :spam: 

Where is the logic? 
:thinking:


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Pioneer10 said:


> I think the numbers are off skew till ALL the usual posters so up: thug immortal, IV, madskillz, xerixz, and so on.


Well, they all only posted around 4 times or so. That wouldn't make them relentless, that would just mean there are more people defending Kobe who didn't see need to argue about it for very long. 



Pioneer10 said:



> Kobe does seems to get more open flak from a greater numbers of players then most. Shaq, Malone, Allen, and now Bogut. Maybe he creates the same sort of love/hate that he does in posters as he does with players. I think his comment about Shaq (whether you think it was just a scared comment or something more malicious) hurt him in the eyes of other players


Yeah, like I've said a few times in this thread and others, I think Kobe has a bad rep for a few reasons. Shaq is likeable and well respected, and him and Kobe didn't like each other, so naturally people are going to side with the guy they like and respect. Then the whole misconception that Kobe got Shaq booted out of LA adds to it. Then the whole rape thing worsens Kobes reputation. 

None of that changes the situation though, in my opinion.


----------



## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



jalen5 said:


> I'm not so sure about calling Phil Jackson the best coach of all time. He's only coached 2 NBA teams. 1. The Bulls w/ the Best Player of All Time, Michael Jordan, and a pretty damn good player in Scottie Pippen in their prime. and 2. The Lakers with Kobe Bryant and Shaq. I don't think he is the only coach in the league that could have one with those teams. Hell, my high school coach could have won with those teams. Players are more important in the NBA than coaches are as a general rule. It is of my opinion that coaches that do well in the NBA usually just have a greater advantage in timing over other coaches in the league than advantage in terms of knowledge over the other coaches (for instance, Jackson getting the Bulls in their prime and Jackson getting the Lakers in Shaq's prime and a very quickly emerging Kobe Bryant). I'd love to see Phil take the Knicks job and see how he does with that team. I bet they don't drastically improve.


 Then how do you explain the Bulls winning 55 games WITHOUT Jordan (just two losses more then the previous year) and getting within a bad call of ECF?

In addition, history tends to forget what kind of disarray the now glorified Shaq led Lakers were in before Phil got there. Shaq was NOT considered the MDE but had ben surpasses by Duncan. The Laker organization was also dealing with the fact that they got an old Glen Rice for both Eddie Jones and Campbell. There was a reason the Lakers actually decided to spend big money for a coach. Something they've never really did before in their history


----------



## jalen5 (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Your comment was that Kobe homers are relentless in defending him. So how is that any different from me saying that Kobe haters are relentless? If you looked at the numbers of the people posting in this thread and what side they took, my argument would be more credible.
> 
> DHarris34Phan 20
> futuristxen 19
> ...


umm... Just for the record, I am DEFINITELY NOT a Kobe Homer. I dislike him very much actually. Despite the fact that I don't like him, I am not ignorant to the fact that he is a very, very talented player-- a superstar talent. I also do not like Bogut either. I think Bogut is being way overhyped and while he will be a good player in the league, he's not going to be that great, like a Duncan-type player or anything. Honestly, I don't care what Bogut says about Kobe. And I doubt Kobe cares either. Everybody talks. It's part of the game. If I were Bogut, would I have said it. Probably not, cuz he probably has the same amount of inside knowledge of what really happened behind the scenes w/ the Lakers, Shaq, and Kobe as everyone of us--which is very little to none. Who knows what really happened. But all of that is old news. When Bogut comes into the league, what he said is not going to have an impact one way or the other on how Kobe and he play against each other. And race has nothing to do with all this. Bogut will not be a superstar b/c, while he still has some potential, upside, and athletic ability, it is all limited. I see more upside in Yao than I do in Bogut.


----------



## jalen5 (Nov 19, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Pioneer10 said:


> Then how do you explain the Bulls winning 55 games WITHOUT Jordan (just two losses more then the previous year) and getting within a bad call of ECF?
> 
> In addition, history tends to forget what kind of disarray the now glorified Shaq led Lakers were in before Phil got there. Shaq was NOT considered the MDE but had ben surpasses by Duncan. The Laker organization was also dealing with the fact that they got an old Glen Rice for both Eddie Jones and Campbell. There was a reason the Lakers actually decided to spend big money for a coach. Something they've never really did before in their history


I didn't say he wasn't a good or great coach, but I'm hesitant to call him the greatest coach ever. I'd really like to see how he does coaching the Knicks. I hope he goes there. Cuz that is a situation that is in disarray and has very little talent. The Lakers may have been in a little disarray, but they had the most talent in the leage w/ Shaq and Kobe on the roster.


----------



## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

When I first read this, I was laughing my *** off, the mere fact that a player with no NBA experience was trying to comment on NBA basketball and how it should be played is just pure ignorant. It would have been different to me if he had said something about another player that hasn't won anything. But when he said that everything has to be around Kobe for him to function properly, Bogut just seemed like a complete fool that didn't know anything about the past 6 years of the NBA. He is saying that everything has to be focused on Kobe for Kobe to work properly, yet when the Lakers won the 3 titles Kobe was the sidekick and everything was focused around Shaq.



> everything has to surround around him the whole time. Otherwise, he doesn't function.


A 100% idiot statement. 

I guess he hasn't watched NBA basketball from 99-02


----------



## NextBigThing (Jun 21, 2003)

lol how hypocritical it is for you guys to jump all over this guy for saying his opinion on things he has observed in the NBA, when everyone here does the EXACT same thing every freakin day?!

Bogut isn't scared of Kobe or any backlash, I doubt he cares too much about his endoresements or PR or any of that crap, hes just talking candidly when asked a question. Its refreshing. And yea Kobe can try and dunk on him all he wants, I doubt Bogut will care too much, probably will even send his stuff back a few times too.

This kid is gonna be good for the NBA.


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

I'm just excited for Bogut. I like his game and his attitude and his comments weren't anything outrageous which is why I'm surprised that people are screaming "Blasphemy !" about them. Most people dislike Kobe and the aftermath of the trade basically confirmed a lot about Kobe's ability to carry a team. I just want to see Bogut play and it'll be pretty funny if he starts putting up sick numbers. People need to start having more faith in things like basketball IQ, college experience , established skill sets and conditioning than something like "upside". People last year were saying that Okafor would barely average anything on offense because all he had going for him apparently was his defense. Well he still doesn't have too many low post iso moves but college experience alone let him average around 15 ppg. People need to start thinking about things like that. There's a helluva lot of difference between a high school kid and a college guy and even though that should be painfully apparent, I see it absent from a lot of logic that floats around nowadays.


----------



## Cammo (May 24, 2005)

> I'm just excited for Bogut. I like his game and his attitude and his comments weren't anything outrageous which is why I'm surprised that people are screaming "Blasphemy !" about them. Most people dislike Kobe and the aftermath of the trade basically confirmed a lot about Kobe's ability to carry a team. I just want to see Bogut play and it'll be pretty funny if he starts putting up sick numbers. People need to start having more faith in things like basketball IQ, college experience , established skill sets and conditioning than something like "upside". People last year were saying that Okafor would barely average anything on offense because all he had going for him apparently was his defense. Well he still doesn't have too many low post iso moves but college experience alone let him average around 15 ppg. People need to start thinking about things like that. There's a helluva lot of difference between a high school kid and a college guy and even though that should be painfully apparent, I see it absent from a lot of logic that floats around nowadays.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: 
Nice post.


----------



## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Unless he actually knows Kobe, which I doubt is the case, Bogut shouldn't have made those comments. His pull-no-punches response was typically Australian and an interesting change from the usual guarded fluff, but it was seemingly unwarranted and a little immature. However, I doubt Kobe gives a ****.

Whoever said that Aussie males' attitude give them an edge in the sporting arena is correct. I dislike most Australian sportsmen. Many of them are hyper-competitive, graceless winners, sore losers and all-round bad sports. They have a mean streak, and often, I feel, have a desire to not only beat the opposition, but also humiliate them. All that, however, is what makes them so successful.



sherako said:


> of course, being born in a penal colony will do that to ya


Racist.

Actually, put me in the Andrew Bogut fan club. I didn't want to be in it at first, but suddenly I do. Where's Greg Ostertag?


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

I think Kobe has a somewhat arrogant outlook. But he was hardly solely responsible for the break-up of the Lakers. Phil Jackson and Shaquille O'Neal were at least equally arrogant and intractable. All three were large egos that want things their way.

I think Bogut has the right to say what he thinks, I don't buy the "rookie/draftee should shut up" nonsense. On the other hand, his opinion should be taken with the proper amount of salt. What does he know about maintaining star relations at the NBA level when he hasn't played a minute at that level? That goes for every fan, too, but we all have our opinion and if we can express them, so can Bogut.

Bryant is an amazing player and a clear asset to a team. He can play with others, as winning three championships with O'Neal shows, but he also would prefer to the main ingredient, rather than the co-primary option or second option.


----------



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*dumb posts get dumb replies*



gian said:


> :spam:
> 
> Where is the logic?
> :thinking:


at your mommas house where i left it


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Nothing against Bogut but what exactly gives him the right to make those statements when he himself hasnt proven anything. He hasnt won jack and hasnt even played a single NBA game, I might not like Kobe Bryant but Kobe Bryant has done a lot for the league, when the league was in need of an MJ replacement he was placed in that role for a couple of years and did a darn good job too. Bogut should focus more on his game and quit acting like he is some established superstar alreay


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Hbwoy said:


> Nothing against Bogut but what exactly gives him the right to make those statements when he himself hasnt proven anything. He hasnt won jack and hasnt even played a single NBA game, I might not like Kobe Bryant but Kobe Bryant has done a lot for the league, when the league was in need of an MJ replacement he was placed in that role for a couple of years and did a darn good job too. Bogut should focus more on his game and quit acting like he is some established superstar alreay


Why exactly does Bogut have to prove something to state some opinions? I don't get it. It isn't like anything Bogut is saying is new. We've already heard this from a bunch of other players on Kobe.

I hope Bogut expresses his opinions like this his entire career. I'll be his biggest fan. These days nobody says anything in interviews but all the same scripted answers. Someone who actually speaks their mind would be very refreshing.


----------



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

JNice said:


> Someone who actually speaks their mind would be very refreshing.


so if bogut got after dwight howard, you would still have this take?


----------



## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

for as bad as kobe and lakers have been playing this season and how 'good' the heat (or shaq) have been playing this season, you are S T U P I D if you still think they lakers should have kept shaq over kobe. look at shaq now, he's no longer dominant by any strech. he's 33 years old with 30+mil contract, cant play 40+minutes anymore maybe hes injured but the fact is he's not gonna be able to go 40 within 2 seasons at max, maybe as early as next season. for as much motivation he needed this season to prove his worth after being "kicked out " of L.A, he's simply not the same player as he once was. he's definitely on the downhill of his career, and declinding faster than most of us thought he would. wade this season has carried the heat on his back, shaq is just a lucky sob, you think shaq-led team with scrubs are gonna do some damage? hes got dwayne wade, one of the top 3-5 players in the league and willing to defer to him in terms of ego and control of the team. by next season, mark my words, shaq will be reduced to something like 32min, 20/9 type of player while missing 30games due to injury. is he worth the 30mil? If i were the heat i wouldnt give him any extension at 30mil. im sure pat riley wouldnt either, not after witnessing how much he has declinded this season. 
kobe on theother hand, who works his *** off, is 26 years old, always in shape, with about half of shaq's salary, i bet if the lakers get phil jackson, kobe is one of the top3 mvp candiate next season. 

as for bogut, oh man, that dude is arrogant. i stick with my theory of "big white boys dont make it in this league". all the high picks with big white boys dont turn out great....... sorry, but it's the truth. anything better than 15/8 i will be extremely suprised. he will not be better than yao ming for sure.


----------



## BigMike (Jun 12, 2002)

GO BOGUT!

Yes, he hasn't done **** in the NBA yet. Yes, Kobe might be the most talented player in the NBA. But whatever, man, he's saying what some people might be afraid to, telling it like it is. What's wrong with it?

I can't wait to see what this guy does in the league.


----------



## BBB (Jan 19, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> No...he only spouts off behind the scenes, and gets the greatest coach of all time fired, and one of the greatest bigman of all traded. True Beauty!


That's unbelievably ignorant...

Yes, let's all refer to your extremely credible source of ESPN. And yes, Kobe *is* the devil!


----------



## BBB (Jan 19, 2005)

*Re: Reason Bogut's Mad at Kobe*



nima86 said:


> On Friday, Arash Markazi has a column published on CNNSI.com in which he rips Kobe Bryant for failing to show up for a "mentor" story with him and Andrew Bogut. Later that day, SI and others report that Kobe Bryant missed Friday night's Lakers game against the Sacramento Kings to be with his wife, who had developed a potentially life-threatening case of ectopic pregnancy. After a few days of testing, Vanessa Bryant has been diagnosed and will be fine.
> 
> of course the reporter didnt check up on this peculiar venom bogut seemed to be spewing out of nowhere. i mean he hasnt even met kobe bryant, although its now apparent that he wanted to.
> 
> Looks like Bogut got his feelings hurt poor lil Aussie


*bump* to this.


----------



## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

BigMike said:


> GO BOGUT!
> 
> Yes, he hasn't done **** in the NBA yet. Yes, Kobe might be the most talented player in the NBA. But whatever, man, he's saying what some people might be afraid to, telling it like it is. What's wrong with it?
> 
> I can't wait to see what this guy does in the league.


lol nobody is afraid of telling it like it is. there have been many bad things said about kobe around the league through out the years. but the fact is bogut hasnt done ****s in the NBA yet, and he doesnt know craps about kobe, and yet he picked on kobe cause there are alot of kobe haters around, not because he knows what type of person or player kobe is. if he actually played with kobe and showed proof of how much of *** kobe is, then he has the rights to call out kobe, but right now, hes nothing more than a big white boy who wont be so great in the NBA, and he disses nba superstar like that, that is arrogant and ignorant and stupid.


----------



## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

lol at those people who still think that kobe ran phil and shaq out of town. i 'm sure that kobe wouldnt mind playing with shaq/phil for another season or 2, the fact was, shaq was extremely pissed for the royal treatment kobe got from the management, i mean which team management wouldnt do the same? a 26 year old arguebly the best player in the NBA, has no apparent weakness like cant shoot freethrows,mentally tough. any owners in the NBA would knee down in front of kobe beg for his service. it was shaq who couldn't deal with the fact that he was no longer worth as much as kobe to the lakers or any team in the NBA. or he forced the trade. 
as for phil jackson constantly sided with shaq during the time period, u know why? it's not because shaq is more cocheable than kobe. cause phil knows shaq is much much more less willing to take any ****s from anyone, he's just a big crybaby, kobe on the other hand, is much willing to take craps from shaq and keep it within the team professionally, thus keeping the lakers running. it's like a boss with 2 equally talented workers, both of them are inreplaceble, but one is crybaby, easily ticked off by anything, and other one is more quite, can take ****s from others to a degree, and the are constantly fighting, now which one do u side with to keep the company running?


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Jamel Irief said:


> He wasn't even one of the Bulls 5 best players.
> 
> And you were doing the same thing with him that you are doing here. Claiming that these are no-nonese guys that take no crap and whatnot and post very little about their basketball ability. I wouldn't be surprised if you've seen him play less than 5 times.


And guess what. Noce proved he was a no-nonsense guy who doesn't take crap. He irritated the **** out of the top teams in the NBA.

And if it weren't for how good Gordon and Deng were, which I already copped to underestimating both, then Noce would have been a top 5 player on the Bulls.

But being a close 6th on a team like the Bulls doesn't mean what it does on a woeful **** team like your Kobe-led Lakers. I wouldn't be suprised if you saw Noce play in the NBA less than 5 times.

You can keep saying the same thing over and over, but it doesn't make it sound any better and it doesn't make it any more relevent. Noce has turned into everything I thought he was going to be. And I can't wait for next year with him and the Bulls. Where we will most likely still finish with a better record than the Shaq-less Lakers. Kobe made you guy's bed, now you can lie in it.

Enjoy Chris Mihm. Danny Ainge sends his mother****ing regards, suckers.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Max Payne said:


> I'm just excited for Bogut. I like his game and his attitude and his comments weren't anything outrageous which is why I'm surprised that people are screaming "Blasphemy !" about them. Most people dislike Kobe and the aftermath of the trade basically confirmed a lot about Kobe's ability to carry a team. I just want to see Bogut play and it'll be pretty funny if he starts putting up sick numbers. People need to start having more faith in things like basketball IQ, college experience , established skill sets and conditioning than something like "upside". People last year were saying that Okafor would barely average anything on offense because all he had going for him apparently was his defense. Well he still doesn't have too many low post iso moves but college experience alone let him average around 15 ppg. People need to start thinking about things like that. There's a helluva lot of difference between a high school kid and a college guy and even though that should be painfully apparent, I see it absent from a lot of logic that floats around nowadays.



Well said sir. I am in complete agreement.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Sith said:


> it was shaq who couldn't deal with the fact that he was no longer worth as much as kobe to the lakers or any team in the NBA. or he forced the trade.


You lost all your credibility right about here. While Shaq is still in the playoffs, Kobe is in the lottery. Even the Heat made it to the playoffs with the players Kobe had.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

As I said before. Bogut can't be a bust now. If he is, comments like this look like Karma. To many people, you don't like people who bag on others who can't back it up. Look as much as I despise Shaq, he talked crap, but backed it up, so at the end of the day, he still did his thing.

If Bogut is talking candidly about the way Americans play ball (and I'm in the Bogut fanclub), then I got a problem with that, because it's that thought that annoys me. Americans play the game just fine. Last I checked, the best players in the NBA are American.

The key thing is this, if Bogut said that Allen Iverson is what is wrong with the American Game (and let's be real he destroys most players rhythm who play with him), then most everyone here would have came down on Bogut. Since he chose Kobe, the people don't like Kobe co-sign to his comments.

Bogut seems to have a big mouth and he better be great or else the joke will be on him. Calling out Kobe (who has won in this league and been to the mountain top) is foolish. Anyone with any ounce of drive in their body, wouldn't want to be known as a sidekick for their entire careers. I think anyone will tell you that Pippen hated being known as a sidekick (and he wasn't a sidekick), yet history will remember him as one.

I can go with Kobe, because at least he aspires to be the best, now he might not make it, but he's going to do it or go down swinging. 

Kissing up to Shaq is stupid. If I was a talented ball player, Shaq and I would of had problems every single season. His work ethic is so poor, if he was in a regular profession, he would have been fired a long time ago.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

sherako said:


> so if bogut got after dwight howard, you would still have this take?



No. But there is a distinct difference. There is at least some level of truth to what he said about Kobe. As far as Dwight, someone would be hard-pressed to find anything bad to say about him. Big difference.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

JNice said:


> No. But there is a distinct difference. There is at least some level of truth to what he said about Kobe. As far as Dwight, someone would be hard-pressed to find anything bad to say about him. Big difference.


If Kobe were on the Magic and Howard were on the Lakers, would you feel the same way? Probably not.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

HKF said:


> If Kobe were on the Magic and Howard were on the Lakers, would you feel the same way? Probably not.


Absolutely. Don't try and label me as a blind Magic homer. Go read some posts from the last couple of months on Steve Francis.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

DHarris34Phan said:


> You lost all your credibility right about here. While Shaq is still in the playoffs, Kobe is in the lottery. Even the Heat made it to the playoffs with the players Kobe had.


This is a poor argument. They made the playoffs in the East at 41-41 and were the No. 4 seed. 41-41 in the West is a lottery team. Let's not go overboard. The Heat don't make the playoffs if the East wasn't the worst it ever was a year ago (which it was).


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

DHarris34Phan said:


> You lost all your credibility right about here. While Shaq is still in the playoffs, Kobe is in the lottery. Even the Heat made it to the playoffs with the players Kobe had.



haha, you just lost all your credibility of common bball IQ here too. the heat swept the wizards without shaq playing a single minute, and vs the pistons, what has shaq done? the best game he's got so far is 20/6. wade and other heat plyers have stepped up big time. thats like saying damon jones is better than kobe because he's still in the playoffs and kobe is not. 

like i said early, for anyone who still thinks the lakers or any team should ahve chose shaq over kobe, u r stupid. it's simple as that.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

JNice said:


> Absolutely. Don't try and label me as a blind Magic homer. Go read some posts from the last couple of months on Steve Francis.


I have read your posts on Steve Francis, but that's because you want him off the team, so again that's not a good argument. Why would you defend someone that you want off the team?


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

HKF said:


> This is a poor argument. They made the playoffs in the East at 41-41 and were the No. 4 seed. 41-41 in the West is a lottery team. Let's not go overboard. The Heat don't make the playoffs if the East wasn't the worst it ever was a year ago (which it was).


I agree, but there is no reason why Kobe, who is a top 5 player in the NBA, couldn't carry his team, a very talented one, to the playoffs.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

HKF said:


> I have read your posts on Steve Francis, but that's because you want him off the team, so again that's not a good argument. Why would you defend someone that you want off the team?



What does me wanting him off the team have to with anything? He was on Orlando and he was a pain in the ***. I'm not blind with bias not to see that. If I were a Laker fan i'd be incensed with the crap Kobe has pulled over the years.

And either way, there really is no comparison in personality or perception between Kobe and Dwight, so just switching their teams to make your argument is useless.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Sith said:


> haha, you just lost all your credibility of common bball IQ here too. the heat swept the wizards without shaq playing a single minute, and vs the pistons, what has shaq done? the best game he's got so far is 20/6. wade and other heat plyers have stepped up big time. thats like saying damon jones is better than kobe because he's still in the playoffs and kobe is not.
> 
> like i said early, for anyone who still thinks the lakers or any team should ahve chose shaq over kobe, u r stupid. it's simple as that.


My basketball IQ tells me you take the bigman over the wing any day of the week. What have TMac, Dominique, or Kobe done without bigmen? They put up huge numbers, but without a true bigman, their teams rot in mediocrity.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

DHarris34Phan said:


> My basketball IQ tells me you take the bigman over the wing any day of the week. What have TMac, Dominique, or Kobe done without bigmen? They put up huge numbers, but without a true bigman, their teams rot in mediocrity.


You can't really say this about Kobe, because it's been exactly one season. The guy is about to turn 27. His career is not ending tomorrow. 

If Shaq doesn't win a title (I think San Antonio takes it), what has he won without Kobe? Now if he wins with Wade, then you have a point, but if he gets to the Finals and loses to the Spurs, while it was a great ride, he still didn't win the title.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

DHarris34Phan said:


> I agree, but there is no reason why Kobe, who is a top 5 player in the NBA, couldn't carry his team, a very talented one, to the playoffs.


you know there are seasons where you win and lose. you cant win all the time or lose all the time. this is why nba is exciting. this is why t-mac had that notorious season with the magic where his team went on a 19gme losing streak, finished 21-61. now u look at where t-mac is now after switching scene and team. it's still the same player. this is why KG can go from mvp, best record in west, wcf to missing the playoffs all together. this is why your team the bucks can go from having a promising future, playoffs last season to no.1 pick this season. this is why jazz can go from 41wins to 20 some wins this season while adding 2 studs worth over 120mils of contract. this is why akeem's rockets went from missing the playoffs at 92 to a 55 win season at 93 and a champion at 94,95. akeem went from being a no.4 or so center to undisputed best player in the NBA. im sure it's not because those players have improved or declinded that much from sesaon to season, they are still largely the same players, it's alot of circumstances that can impact the team.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

> You can't really say this about Kobe, because it's been exactly one season. The guy is about to turn 27. His career is not ending tomorrow.


True, but judging by the 2004-05 Lakers, I really don't see them getting any better in the West without a legitimate bigman. Right now, they don't have one, and they don't have the caproom to get one. They are going to have to wait 2 seasons for Brian Grant to come off the books, or draft a big @ #10 and hope he is the answer.



> If Shaq doesn't win a title (I think San Antonio takes it), what has he won without Kobe? Now if he wins with Wade, then you have a point, but if he gets to the Finals and loses to the Spurs, while it was a great ride, he still didn't win the title.


True...but the fact they got to the Finals would be a huge improvement over last season for the Heat, and it probably wouldn't have been possible without Shaq.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Sith said:


> this is why t-mac had that notorious season with the magic where his team went on a 19gme losing streak, finished 21-61.. now u look at where t-mac is now after switching scene and team. it's still the same player.


I think Yao Ming has a little something do do with it.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

DHarris34Phan said:


> True, but judging by the 2004-05 Lakers, I really don't see them getting any better in the West without a legitimate bigman. Right now, they don't have one, and they don't have the caproom to get one. They are going to have to wait 2 seasons for Brian Grant to come off the books, or draft a big @ #10 and hope he is the answer.


Now who is the one telling the future? You can see the future on the Lakers, but people can't see the future on the Bogut? You just fell into my trap. :clap: :clown: 



> True...but the fact they got to the Finals would be a huge improvement over last season for the Heat, and it probably wouldn't have been possible without Shaq.


Very true, but if this very Miami team is in the West instead, how do you think they do? Did you see their record against the West? The East only had two teams this year, Detroit and Miami. That's pretty significant, when you discover the West had 6 teams capable of winning a round provided the matchups in Denver, Phoenix, San Antonio, Dallas, Houston and Seattle. If Miami had to play Dallas and then San Antonio, I think they would have met with the same fate that the Suns did. 

Sometimes, it's the luck of the draw. However, with the Nets and Pacers much improved a year from now, teams like the Bucks getting much needed help and cap space, it's going to improve, but the West had a 9th place team with a 44-38 record. These set of circumstances can't be ignored.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

DHarris34Phan said:


> True, but judging by the 2004-05 Lakers, I really don't see them getting any better in the West without a legitimate bigman. Right now, they don't have one, and they don't have the caproom to get one. They are going to have to wait 2 seasons for Brian Grant to come off the books, or draft a big @ #10 and hope he is the answer.
> 
> 
> True...but the fact they got to the Finals would be a huge improvement over last season for the Heat, and it probably wouldn't have been possible without Shaq.


you think giving shaq 30mil a season for 3+ more seasons is better than wait 2 seasons for BG to come off the books? shaq is lucky wade is having a monster season, of course shaq has something to do with heat's scucess this season, i mean we are talking about the supposely MDE player in the NBA, 30mil contract. but we could argue that wade has had bigger impact than shaq this season for heats success. it is a big improvement over lsat season for the heat. but i think it's more of due to wade's improvement than shaq's arrival.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Sith said:


> you think giving shaq 30mil a season for 3+ more seasons is better than wait 2 seasons for BG to come off the books?


Well yeah, because for the next 2 seasons the Lakers would probably be contending for Championships, instead of waiting for someone's contract to just expire.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

HKF said:


> The key thing is this, if Bogut said that Allen Iverson is what is wrong with the American Game (and let's be real he destroys most players rhythm who play with him), then most everyone here would have came down on Bogut. Since he chose Kobe, the people don't like Kobe co-sign to his comments.


If you go back and read the thread from a month ago, when Chris Webber supposedly criticized Allen Iverson for hogging the ball, you will find proof of your statement. Some of the exact same people who are in this thread saying "It's all right for Bogut to have an opinion about basketball" were in that thread saying "Chris Webber had better shut up until he starts playing better." When people say it's all right for Bogut to have an opinion, they should add that it's only OK if they agree with that opinion. If Bogut bashes a player they like, they'll turn on Bogut immediately.

It sure takes a lot of "balls" to say something that most people agree with.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

HKF said:


> Now who is the one telling the future? You can see the future on the Lakers, but people can't see the future on the Bogut? You just fell into my trap. :clap: :clown:


I hardly predicted the future. I made a reasonable statement based on facts. The trash that is being thrown at Bogut mainly has to do with his skin color, which isn't relevant at all.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

DHarris34Phan said:


> I hardly predicted the future. I made a reasonable statement based on facts. The trash that is being thrown at Bogut mainly has to do with his skin color, which isn't relevant at all.


So it's a fact that the Lakers won't improve, but it's a not a fact that Bogut will be a bust? This is poor logic, you're better than this.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

HKF said:


> So it's a fact that the Lakers won't improve, but it's a not a fact that Bogut will be a bust? This is poor logic, you're better than this.


No...I didn't say the Lakers wouldn't improve. But, without the capspace for the next 2 years to go out and sign a legitimate bigman, they will be WAY behind in the West.

When BG is off the books, they will have that capspace to go out and sign a bigman, their one glaring need. After they do this, I see them being a contending team again.

My original statement:


DHarris34Phan said:


> True, but judging by the 2004-05 Lakers, I really don't see them getting any better in the West without a legitimate bigman. Right now, they don't have one, and they don't have the caproom to get one. They are going to have to wait 2 seasons for Brian Grant to come off the books, or draft a big @ #10 and hope he is the answer.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

DHarris34Phan said:


> No...I didn't say the Lakers wouldn't improve. But, without the capspace for the next 2 years to go out and sign a legitimate bigman, they will be WAY behind in the West.
> 
> When BG is off the books, they will have that capspace to go out and sign a bigman, their one glaring need. After they do this, I see them being a contending team again.


So you needed to clarify what you said then. You don't know that it will take two years. You think, but again you don't know. So don't be so definitive. That's what I'm saying. You have no idea what they're trying to do. So you being so matter of fact about the Lakers is just as wrong as people are about Bogut. 

That's the bottom line.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

DHarris34Phan said:


> I hardly predicted the future. I made a reasonable statement based on facts. The trash that is being thrown at Bogut mainly has to do with his skin color, which isn't relevant at all.



based on facts? u think bogut is gonna accomplish more than kobe in the NBA, or win a championship before kobe starting next season? i think most people who are not blinded or ignorant would agree with me that kobe-led team would win more games or championships than bogut-led team. i think it's more educated guess to assume that than bogut will tear up the league, win mvps and collect championship trophies. 

yes i agree that his skin color is inrelevant to how good of player he will be, but since you made a reasonable staetment based on facts, why I can't make one too that big white men dont make it in this league?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



futuristxen said:


> And guess what. Noce proved he was a no-nonsense guy who doesn't take crap. He irritated the **** out of the top teams in the NBA.
> 
> And if it weren't for how good Gordon and Deng were, which I already copped to underestimating both, then Noce would have been a top 5 player on the Bulls.
> 
> ...


This has nothing to do with anything, except for the fact that you are perhaps embarrassed that you said Nocioni would be the best player on the Bulls. And again you say nothing about his abilities like rebounding, passing, scoring because as a overall basketball player he is worse than Chris Mihm. You are doing the same thing with Bogut. I could care less that he is scowls a lot and gets floor burns, he isn't talented enough to 
A) lead the Bucks to a better record than the Lakers
B) Avoid getting put on a Kobe poster

I saw the Bulls play 9 times. 6 playoff games, 2 games against the Lakers, 1 game against Minnesota.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

I think people are losing their wits. The more Bogut is debated, I notice two things: he is becoming a future HOFer or the next Olowokandi depending on which side of the debate you are on.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Sith said:


> based on facts? u think bogut is gonna accomplish more than kobe in the NBA, or win a championship before kobe starting next season? i think most people who are not blinded or ignorant would agree with me that kobe-led team would win more games or championships than bogut-led team. i think it's more educated guess to assume that than bogut will tear up the league, win mvps and collect championship trophies.


I was basing my opinion that the Lakers won't be getting much better for the next 2 seasons is based on fact. The fact is, they have no capspace, and unless they bring in a legitimate bigman in through the MLE (doubtful), trade (if they wanna lose Odom), or #10 overall pick, it is my opinion they won't be getting better for the next 2 seasons in the always improving West. That means when they do get out of cap hell, they will still have to catch up with Dallas, Phoenix, San Antonio, Houston, and even Golden State.



> yes i agree that his skin color is inrelevant to how good of player he will be, but since you made a reasonable staetment based on facts, why I can't make one too that big white men dont make it in this league?


You can make that inference, but it shouldn't play into projecting the future of a white player. By saying Andrew Bogut is going to be a bust because most white players in the NBA are, that is being ignorant and borderline racist.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

DHarris34Phan said:


> I was basing my opinion that the Lakers won't be getting much better for the next 2 seasons is based on fact. The fact is, they have no capspace, and unless they bring in a legitimate bigman in through the MLE (doubtful), trade (if they wanna lose Odom), or #10 overall pick, it is my opinion they won't be getting better for the next 2 seasons in the always improving West. That means when they do get out of cap hell, they will still have to catch up with Dallas, Phoenix, San Antonio, Houston, even Golden State.


I think the midseason coaching change and the fact that their two best players missed 16 and 18 games crippled their playoff hopes more than a lack of a big man.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

HKF said:


> Sometimes, it's the luck of the draw. However, with the Nets and Pacers much improved a year from now, teams like the Bucks getting much needed help and cap space, it's going to improve, but the West had a 9th place team with a 44-38 record. These set of circumstances can't be ignored.


The east had a 9th place team with the exact same record as the 8th place team: 42-40. The east isn't a walk in the park anymore. And it's only getting harder. This was a season where the Pacers team was in various stages of dissarray. The Nets only had Carter, Kidd, and Jefferson together for a handful of games. The Bulls lost Curry, and Deng to close out the year.

But next year you'll have all of that, plus the Bucks with a legit big man. Dwight Howard year 2. Lebron James year 3 plus hopefully Joe Johnson. 

The league as a whole is getting better across the board. We're beginging to get back to those woebegone days before expansion where teams actually have decent players at every position. International expansion is finally picking up the slack that expansion created.

It's a wonderful time to be an NBA fan. Next year I think the whole, well they play in the east thing will have even less credibility than it does now, which is less than it had when the Heat made the playoffs last year with a record that would not have made the playoffs in the east this year.

It can't be lost that the Cavs missed the playoffs with a record that would have made the playoffs at a decent seed only a year before.

And yet, sitting atop this resurging conference...one Shaquille O'Neal.

Sometimes the more things change, the more they stay the same.

You almost make me want to root for for Shaq in the playoffs just to spite Kobe. But I'd rather see Manu, Tony, and Tim get their rings.

It'll be enough for the Heat to do what last year's Lakers couldn't--beat the Detroit Pistons.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I'm from the East Coast (so it's not a bias with the West Coast), but when the Eastern Conference only has two teams capable of winning the conference and that's all they had, you can tell the conference is poor. It's improving and there were a lot of unforseen things that happened that destroyed the conference this year, but let's be real. The Heat (they would have been the No. 2 seed) wouldn't have swept teams in the West like they did the Wiz and Nets so easily. West is much harder.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

*your predictions on kobe and bogut*

i predict next season:

kobe- top 3 in mvp voting if he gets phil jackson, 30/6/6 FG 48%. all NBA first team, all def 2nd team. lead lakers to 50+wins, 2nd round. 

bogut- 10/6/1.5blk 51%FG, all rookie first team(but wont improve much after this season, he has limited upside). the bucks miss the playoffs, win less than 35games even with resigned redd. 

bogut gets posterized at least once by Kobe worse than that facial d.howard got last year.

in 3 years:

kobe - has already won 1 mvp at least, lakers contending for championship, wcf final at least once. scoring title, all NBA first team/def first team.

bogut- 14/7, 50%fg, bucks still havent' made the playoffs in 3 years.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Jamel Irief said:


> This has nothing to do with anything, except for the fact that you are perhaps embarrassed that you said Nocioni would be the best player on the Bulls. And again you say nothing about his abilities like rebounding, passing, scoring because as a overall basketball player he is worse than Chris Mihm.


I'm definitely not embarrassed about Nocioni. He's been an exceptional find by John Paxson. I don't know why you think he's garbage. He has to find more consistency in his J, but this was his first year and he had to adjust to the language and speed of the game, and he made that adjustment over the course of the year. Defensively he is a maniac. He is a madman going to the basket. He rebounds as well as Chris Mihm does right now, and he's a small forward.

He can guard 3 positions on the court with aplomb.

The sad thing about Mihm is that Noce outrebounded his rookie year numbers, and was pretty close to what Mihm rebounded this year.

The fact of the matter is, the Lakers would have been better off starting Nocioni at center than Chris Mihm. The fact that you actually traded something for that pile o' garbage gives me hope that the Lakers will remain down for a long long time. Mitch Kupchak is no Jerry West. That's for damned sure.

It's baffeling to me that this is such an important point for you, because my thoughts on Noce haven't changed, I've been very impressed with what I've seen from him his rookie year. He's yet further proof that that argentine basketball team was more than just a nice system. And when Scola comes over for the Spurs next year, it will just hammer home that point even more.

Scola is going to be a tremendous addition to that big man crew around Duncan. He may neccessitate the trading of Rasho.

But anyways. This is all pretty far off topic. There is a slight diffrence between talking about an addition like Nocioni to a Bulls team I was prepared to be disapointed in(a lot of why I thought Noce would be our best player was because I was begining to get dissillusioned with Paxson's moves, and I was still bitter over losing Jamal Crawford, I was happily suprised when I turned out wrong about Deng and Gordon and Skiles), and a player like Bogut who is going to be the number 1 pick in the NBA draft, and who many expect to be a very good player.

I'm not overhyping Bogut, I'm just trying to talk about why I like him, but in this atmosphere of vipers where there are some that want to call him just another big white stiff--well you can forgive me a little hyperbole.

As far as the Chris Webber thing, RP, I don't like Webber, and I like AI. So of course I'm going to tell him to shut his yap. :laugh:

But if Bogut calls out Lebron, I will be laughing. It won't upset me in the same way as Webber. I doubt he does, but some people you can disagree with, and still not have hard feelings towards them. Like you RP. I disagree with you constantly, but it's all love in the end.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*

This thread should be locked now, because absolutley nothing constructive will come out of it.


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*

I agree with DHarris34Phan... Sith, you're just searching for attention.

But you know what? I'm here so...

NEXT SEASON:
Kobe Bryant - 26PPG, 7APG, 6RPG - 47%FG - All NBA 2nd Team, Defensive 2nd Team - Lakers go 44-38, out first round - Kobe might get top 10 in the MVP Voting

Andrew Bogut - 14/8/1.5blk - 56%FG - All Rookie 1st Team - integral part of Bucks playoff run led by Redd/Ford, 6th Seed, eliminated by 3rd Seed. Will not be "posterized" as you guys think.

--------------------

Down the road I can foresee Kobe Bryant winning an MVP trophy and leading the Lakers back into the Finals, but not until the Lakers pick up a big man willing to subjugate himself to Kobe's ego. Kobe will NOT win an NBA Championship, however, without a big man that is one of the best in the league. Eventually people will forget about the Rape scandal, outside of the haters that continually bring it up, and Kobe will get on with his life as an image-whore obsessed with becoming the next Jordan.

Andrew Bogut will be a major physical part of the Bucks continually pounding their way into the 2nd Round and Conference Finals in the Eastern Conference, however they will have to deal with, every year, either the Pacers or the Pistons in one of those rounds (both Pacers and Pistons are relatively young and will be at top of East for years to come). Probably a 19/10 or 18/10 player in the league, never an MVP candidate, but a likely to be All-Defense and an All Star a few times.


-Chris.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*

good candid predictions just like i did. nothign more and nothing else. just what you think? why u gonna make it sound like it'smore than that.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> And for those saying Bogut will be a bust, I don't know if you thought that before he said these things or if that's kind of a knee-jerk reaction, but Bogut is a player. He is probably going to be a more consistent version of Pau Gasol. That's far from a bust, considering how good Pau is when he is on.


I don't expect Bogut to bust, I just don't expect him to be the future hall of famer that the fanboys do. There are parts of his game that I don't think he'll be able to get away with in the NBA. It's easy to be a tough physical center at 7' 240 playing in the Big 12...errrr...I mean the Mountain West Conference, but in the NBA the post players are bigger, stronger, and more athletic (than the 6'9" 250lb college centers). I expect that he's going to get pushed around and used as a dunking dummy for a while before finding his feet. He's good enough away from the basket to move away from the paint and make a living in a Sacramento style offense. I do think he'll be better than Lafrentz, but look carefully, because Raef's the prototype. A college low post player that got pushed around in the paint when he arrived in the show. I understand that he's the great white hope and all, but, Dirk Nowitzki he isn't.


----------



## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*

Because it is... I did the predictions because I was here and have nothing else to really do... in the end, this deserves to be in the other thread. You're just making new threads involving Kobe to get attention. And you keep comparing Kobe to Bogut... why? Bogut said he didn't like the style of play, used Kobe as an example.

It makes SENSE TO USE KOBE AS AN EXAMPLE because Kobe is just about THE BEST PLAYER IN TERMS OF US STYLE BASKETBALL. Bogut doesn't like the style, he uses the best example there is: Kobe Bryant. Albeit, Kobe is a selfish-***** that has a Jordan-Complex... but he is just about the most talented player out there, therefore the best example.

But why compare where their careers are going? Two players who, after this situation dies down, will NEVER be compared because they are completely different in every way. You're just looking for a way to extend the topic for some weird fanatical/obsessive reason.


-Chris.
_god i hope this gets merged..._


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



futuristxen said:


> I'm definitely not embarrassed about Nocioni. He's been an exceptional find by John Paxson. I don't know why you think he's garbage. He has to find more consistency in his J, but this was his first year and he had to adjust to the language and speed of the game, and he made that adjustment over the course of the year. Defensively he is a maniac. He is a madman going to the basket. He rebounds as well as Chris Mihm does right now, and he's a small forward.
> 
> He can guard 3 positions on the court with aplomb.
> 
> ...


I mentioned Nocioni because you were using the same type of praise. It did no good, because I still think you overrate the guy. Hes out of control finishing around the basket and clearly is a inferior center to Mihm if made one. He's basically just a Rodman with inferior athleticism. Hell Mihm is even a better jump shooter than him. 

By the way, you don't seem to realize that 2 other player came with Mihm. In the end that trade brought in 3 of the Lakers top 6 players from last season for Payton. Had they not made that trade they would of started Cook at center for a good portion of the season and Luke Walton and Slava Medvedenko would of been the top backup forwards. Mihm, Atkins and Jones saved us due to the injuries of Vlade, Grant and George, without them and with Payton the Lakers win 20-25 games.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> I don't expect Bogut to bust, I just don't expect him to be the future hall of famer that the fanboys do. There are parts of his game that I don't think he'll be able to get away with in the NBA. It's easy to be a tough physical center at 7' 240 playing in the Big 12...errrr...I mean the Mountain West Conference, but in the NBA the post players are bigger, stronger, and more athletic (than the 6'9" 250lb college centers). I expect that he's going to get pushed around and used as a dunking dummy for a while before finding his feet. He's good enough away from the basket to move away from the paint and make a living in a Sacramento style offense. I do think he'll be better than Lafrentz, but look carefully, because Raef's the prototype. A college low post player that got pushed around in the paint when he arrived in the show. I understand that he's the great white hope and all, but, Dirk Nowitzki he isn't.


He's really not the great white hope. He'll fit in nicely for the Bucks, and is the best player in this years draft. Why is his skin color such an issue? I'm very far from being some white supremicist poster here. I just like dude's game. Skin color has nothing to do with.

People. Stop with the skin color ****. What disturbs me most about this ****, is that if you have this one stereotype, you most likely have others. If you believe a white player is slow and soft, what does that mean you think about all black players? And if you think these things about your sports, what do you think about beyond sports? There's a dangerous corralary to the whole "white guys can't play sports" way of thinking, and it's that that is all black folks are good for. And I hope that's not what you believe, but I can't help but wonder if that's what's going on in your color segregated mind's subconscious.

Here in 2005 if you look around the league you have every excuse to throw out your old stereotypes and truly be a color blind sports fan. So I find it distressing that some of you haven't. We have a league with gazelle like white guys in Dirk and Manu, and a league with slow unathletic turd black guys like Adrian Griffin, and Zach Randolph. We have a league where Kirk Hinrich can put up the best combine scores in the pre-draft workouts. And a league where one of the very best shooters is a black man named Ray Allen.

The two guys with the most playground style games in the NBA are white guys, one canadian(Steve Nash) and one guy from West Virginia(Jason Williams).

A league where the most cerebral player of them all is a black man from the virgin islands named Tim Duncan.

It's such a diverse diverse league, that this whole skin color garbage really has no place in it. And anyone that is using it bumps down a few notches in my book, and I'm sure others.


Wake up.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Jamel Irief said:


> I mentioned Nocioni because you were using the same type of praise. It did no good, because I still think you overrate the guy. Hes out of control finishing around the basket and clearly is a inferior center to Mihm if made one. He's basically just a Rodman with inferior athleticism. Hell Mihm is even a better jump shooter than him.
> 
> By the way, you don't seem to realize that 2 other player came with Mihm. In the end that trade brought in 3 of the Lakers top 6 players from last season for Payton. Had they not made that trade they would of started Cook at center for a good portion of the season and Luke Walton and Slava Medvedenko would of been the top backup forwards. Mihm, Atkins and Jones saved us due to the injuries of Vlade, Grant and George, without them and with Payton the Lakers win 20-25 games.



Yeah, Mihm, Atkins and Jones really saved you. You still ended up in the lottery.

And I don't know how you can watch Nocioni and think he's not as athletic as Dennis Rodman. Have you seen Noce get up? He can sky.

Perhaps a more relevant comparison for this would have been Lebron James--because he was the last number 1 pick I hyped up as much as Bogut. And you see how he turned out. It turned out that all of my "hype" was still behind what he actually was able to achieve.

I've explained the context of what I've said about Noce in the past, and how I am satisfied about his present and his future. There's really nothing further to talk about on the issue.


----------



## jalen5 (Nov 19, 2004)

Sith said:


> based on facts? u think bogut is gonna accomplish more than kobe in the NBA, or win a championship before kobe starting next season? i think most people who are not blinded or ignorant would agree with me that kobe-led team would win more games or championships than bogut-led team. i think it's more educated guess to assume that than bogut will tear up the league, win mvps and collect championship trophies.
> 
> yes i agree that his skin color is inrelevant to how good of player he will be, but since you made a reasonable staetment based on facts, why I can't make one too that big white men dont make it in this league?


I agree with you. Well, big white guys can make it in the league, there just hasn't been one that has been a superstar or led their team to a championship in a long time. And Bogut won't be that either. Center position is the least deep and talented position in the league, so Bogut guys saying he will be a top 10 or top 5 center in the league need to realize that saying that does not necessarily mean much. And he will not be the best player to come out of this draft.


----------



## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

for as much as i dont like some of the posters here and want to be the opposite to what they believe, i will, like i always do, post candid comments straight from my heart without regards to sides.

im a bulls fan, and i m happy that the bulls got him, he's an integral part of the defensive-minded bulls team. while he's not great by any means, he's also not useless. i will go as far as saying i want noc on my team than bogut. again, this is not because i want to be the opposite side of someone, just what i believe.

sorry but i just want to say thsi once more, i promise it's the last time i will ever say that:"big white men don't make it in this league".

ok.


----------



## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*


----------



## bigalw1414 (May 20, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



tone wone said:


> he was speaking in that article like he was Bill Russell...


Don't you mean Jerome James?


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

More bad press for Kobe, The Colorado rape incident that blew up Kobes image. Allen Iverson backing up his buddy Shaq. Ray Allen taking Shots at Kobe this season. The Shaq and Kobe feud having every one from players to Celebs taking sides. And now Bogut taking a shot at Bryant. Kobe really needs to do something to repair his image here lately.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*

I predict that nothing happens between them and Kobe doesn't acknowledge Bogut in any way different from how he does other players. Bogut wins rookie of the year while being a great impact player for the Bucks who may or may not be in the playoff picture in the east. Kobe leads the Lakers to being a borderline playoff team or better, depending on their opening day roster.


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

23AirJordan said:


> More bad press for Kobe, The Colorado rape incident that blew up Kobes image. Allen Iverson backing up his buddy Shaq. Ray Allen taking Shots at Kobe this season. The Shaq and Kobe feud having every one from players to Celebs taking sides. And now Bogut taking a shot at Bryant. Kobe really needs to do something to repair his image here lately.


Most of this comes from people kicking someone while they are down. Kobe can't change people's opinion about him. The only thing that will change his image is time.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

23AirJordan said:


> More bad press for Kobe, The Colorado rape incident that blew up Kobes image. Allen Iverson backing up his buddy Shaq. Ray Allen taking Shots at Kobe this season. The Shaq and Kobe feud having every one from players to Celebs taking sides. And now Bogut taking a shot at Bryant. Kobe really needs to do something to repair his image here lately.


Or do what he has been doing, and not care or respond to the nonsense. Maybe it's just me, but a bunch of people periodically coming out of nowhere and bashing a guy who is doing his thing and not even acknowledging the comments just looks silly. I could name more than 10 guys who epitomize selfish more than Kobe Bryant, and are less talented to boot. 

I usually don't hype guys up for the next season, because I don't know what's going through their head or how satisfied they are with their life and position, but I would be a bit surprised if Kobe didn't come out real strong next season. You throw that much fuel on a guy with that much fire in him, and that's scary for a guy as talented as he is.


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Or do what he has been doing, and not care or respond to the nonsense. Maybe it's just me, but a bunch of people periodically coming out of nowhere and bashing a guy who is doing his thing and not even acknowledging the comments just looks silly. I could name more than 10 guys who epitomize selfish more than Kobe Bryant, and are less talented to boot.
> 
> I usually don't hype guys up for the next season, because I don't know what's going through their head or how satisfied they are with their life and position, but I would be a bit surprised if Kobe didn't come out real strong next season. You throw that much fuel on a guy with that much fire in him, and that's scary for a guy as talented as he is.


Agreed 100% Kobe is going to be a possesed man next year. People have forgotten how talented, skilled, focused and smart he is. All this talk about D. Wade being the leagues best perimeter player and seeing Shaq's quest for a ring has to be eating at him and only fueling his desire to lead his team. I truly believe Kobe learned his lesson this year. Kobe has that rare fire that today's players seem to lack. I gurantee he will come out and carry his team to new heights while hushing all his critics/haters!


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

ralaw said:


> Agreed 100% Kobe is going to be a possesed man next year. People have forgotten how talented, skilled, focused and smart he is. All this talk about D. Wade being the leagues best perimeter player and seeing Shaq's quest for a ring has to be eating at him and only fueling his desire to lead his team. I truly believe Kobe learned his lesson this year. Kobe has that rare fire that today's players seem to lack. *I gurantee he will come out and carry his team to new heights while hushing all his critics/haters!*


Um... wasn't Kobe supposed to be doing that THIS year?


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*

If Kobe decides to make it obviously personal against Bogut, I expect Bogut to respond accordingly, and that likely means hard hits on Kobe. Bogut is a mean mother****er. What so many of you are missing, is that Bogut wouldn't have said that **** if he wasn't prepared to back it up on the court... by whatever means necessary.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



ChrisWoj said:


> Because it is... I did the predictions because I was here and have nothing else to really do... in the end, this deserves to be in the other thread. You're just making new threads involving Kobe to get attention. And you keep comparing Kobe to Bogut... why? Bogut said he didn't like the style of play, used Kobe as an example.
> 
> It makes SENSE TO USE KOBE AS AN EXAMPLE because Kobe is just about THE BEST PLAYER IN TERMS OF US STYLE BASKETBALL. Bogut doesn't like the style, he uses the best example there is: Kobe Bryant. Albeit, Kobe is a selfish-***** that has a Jordan-Complex... but he is just about the most talented player out there, therefore the best example.
> 
> ...


he was talking about the u.s. olympic team, and then he pulls kobe's name out of the air. and proceeds to discuss kobe's cockiness and his relationship with shaq. it was almost a non-sequitor. bogut is telling kobe bryant (who, btw, is a hall-of-famer himself) to keep his mouth shut and play? that made sense in the context of the discussion about the u.s. olympic team?


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Hakeem said:


> Unless he actually knows Kobe, which I doubt is the case, Bogut shouldn't have made those comments. His pull-no-punches response was typically Australian and an interesting change from the usual guarded fluff, but it was seemingly unwarranted and a little immature. However, I doubt Kobe gives a ****.
> 
> Whoever said that Aussie males' attitude give them an edge in the sporting arena is correct. I dislike most Australian sportsmen. Many of them are hyper-competitive, graceless winners, sore losers and all-round bad sports. They have a mean streak, and often, I feel, have a desire to not only beat the opposition, but also humiliate them. All that, however, is what makes them so successful.
> 
> ...


 The Aussies are incredible in most sports they field international teams for. They are absolutely fierce competitors who will fight tooth and nail, not giving up an inch. In cricket they are notorious for what is known as "sledging", where fielders who are close to the batsman will say incriminating stuff to throw him off and make him get out. There was a classic confrontation between two legends of the game recently when the Australian captain, Steve Waugh, was fielding very close ( in cricket there are multiple fielding positions protecting the boundary and in close to try and take catches... not sure how it works in baseball) while Brian Lara, who's the best batsman in the world pretty much was batting. As you can imagine, Steve said a couple of things under his breath that Brian didn't like. So after playing a few deliveries, Brian walks right up to Steve, calmly gets in his face and they have a heated but controlled exchange, before the umpires break it up (check the avatar). So as you can imagine, the Aussies are world champs and they are hated because they're so great but also because of some of their tactics...great great team though. They're pretty unstoppable, maybe like the Showtime Lakers.


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

Brian Lara's the guy with the red helmet and Steve Waugh is the other one.


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

Sith said:


> lol at those people who still think that kobe ran phil and shaq out of town. i 'm sure that kobe wouldnt mind playing with shaq/phil for another season or 2, the fact was, shaq was extremely pissed for the royal treatment kobe got from the management, i mean which team management wouldnt do the same? a 26 year old arguebly the best player in the NBA, has no apparent weakness like cant shoot freethrows,mentally tough. any owners in the NBA would knee down in front of kobe beg for his service. it was shaq who couldn't deal with the fact that he was no longer worth as much as kobe to the lakers or any team in the NBA. or he forced the trade.
> as for phil jackson constantly sided with shaq during the time period, u know why? it's not because shaq is more cocheable than kobe. cause phil knows shaq is much much more less willing to take any ****s from anyone, he's just a big crybaby, kobe on the other hand, is much willing to take craps from shaq and keep it within the team professionally, thus keeping the lakers running. it's like a boss with 2 equally talented workers, both of them are inreplaceble, but one is crybaby, easily ticked off by anything, and other one is more quite, can take ****s from others to a degree, and the are constantly fighting, now which one do u side with to keep the company running?


 Just so you know, Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan are the best players in the league. In the long run, the Shaq trade works out but LA fans will have to see at least a few more years of crappy teams before they can get it together and challenge at all. It's a hotly contested topic because I wonder whether Bryant can win titles. I for one, like swingmen over post players anyway so I hope he can.


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Well said sir. I am in complete agreement.


 Thank you, a pleasure as always.


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> Um... wasn't Kobe supposed to be doing that THIS year?


Um..wasn't Osama supposed to be captured and the war supposed to be over by now? What is that comment supposed to mean or prove? I'm sure there is things you were supposed to do but have not done! Give the man some time.


----------



## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



The Washington Post said:


> Bogut was asked for specifics of the American attitude toward the game, what he does not like. Guess who's name came up?


It is called a reporter. You see, kflo, when the reporter asks a new question, the topic changes. When the reporter changes the subject, the athlete typically flows with that, rather than listening to the new question and then continuing on with the same subject as before.

Comprende?


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*

Pff... People are blowing this over proportions.

Bogut took a shot at Kobe.

So what?


----------



## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

it seems like we havent had a kobe thread in a while and people are just venting. either way, this doesnt warrant 260+ replies.


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## BallStateCards (Oct 14, 2004)

This is odd. 

When LeBron James misses the playoffs to become a lottery team, none of it is his fault. His teammates, as talented as they are, failed to help him. His coach was changed in the middle of the season, and management let one of the best pleyers on the team walk off during the previous offseason.

When Kobe Bryant misses the playoffs, its completely his fault. His teammates, as talented as they are, were failed by Kobe and did not produce. The coach was changed in the middle of the season, and management took orders from Kobe (in free agent form, no less) to let one of the best players (who had actually demanded a trade) on the team wealk in the previous offseason.

See, this is what drives Laker fans crazy. When it's LeBron James, everone is an apologist. When it's Kobe, no one even looks at the other factors.


----------



## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

*Re: dumb posts get dumb replies*



sherako said:


> at your mommas house where i left it


Oh alright.


----------



## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



SeaNet said:


> If Kobe decides to make it obviously personal against Bogut, I expect Bogut to respond accordingly, and that likely means hard hits on Kobe. Bogut is a mean mother****er. What so many of you are missing, is that Bogut wouldn't have said that **** if he wasn't prepared to back it up on the court... by whatever means necessary.


The thing with Kobe Bryant is, he's not the guy to blow things up in the media. I think a lot of people miss that, Kobe Bryant lets his game do the talking for the most part.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*

Bogut is not a mean mother****er at all. Where is this coming from? He has a great mindset for the game, but he's no tough guy out there. He's a finesse Center in every definition of the word. He's skilled, but he's not even Robert Swift in terms of aggression towards the rim.

Cut the hyperbole out. I watch enough college basketball and this man is going to be getting yammed on all the time.


----------



## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



PhillyPhanatic said:


> The thing with Kobe Bryant is, he's not the guy to blow things up in the media. I think a lot of people miss that, Kobe Bryant lets his game do the talking for the most part.


I agree 100%, Tim... that is why Sith is annoying me so much, he just posts on these comparison threads (mind you, I did one, but hell, he asked for it...) even though they don't really matter. At least the Suns w/ Kobe thread was a decent idea, this thread has no point, I am definitely calling for it to be merged with the rest of the Bogut/Kobe stuff.


-Chris.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



futuristxen said:


> Yeah, Mihm, Atkins and Jones really saved you. You still ended up in the lottery.


Nobody made the trade to save any franchise. Not all trades do that. IT IMPROVED the roster. And if you can't admit this than you overrate 37 year old Gary Payton.

BTW LeBron didn't lead his team anywhere that Kobe didn't HAHA. And I bet Bogut will lead his team as far as LeBron did. Good comparison!


----------



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Max Payne said:


> Brian Lara's the guy with the red helmet and Steve Waugh is the other one.


who cares man? :whoknows:


----------



## adarsh1 (May 28, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Max Payne said:


> Brian Lara's the guy with the red helmet and Steve Waugh is the other one.


hey thanks for clearing that up. I pmed u bout that but u answered it right here. You're right-the aussies have a mean streak. When they play cricket, they look down at their competition. The reason they're very good is because they are cocky mother ****ers and they also have a drive to win. They'll do anything to win


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Jamel Irief said:


> BTW LeBron didn't lead his team anywhere that Kobe didn't HAHA. And I bet Bogut will lead his team as far as LeBron did. Good comparison!


Well since you seem to care about a few more wins even if they are in the lottery, then it should be significant to note that Lebron led his team above .500 for the first time in a long time. While Kobe led his team to a below .500 finish for the first time in a long time.

Lebron's team improved over it's last year. Kobe's declined.

One guy is headed in one direction, the other in another.

You keep jumping up...


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

ClayVTrainum said:


> This is odd.
> 
> When LeBron James misses the playoffs to become a lottery team, none of it is his fault. His teammates, as talented as they are, failed to help him. His coach was changed in the middle of the season, and management let one of the best pleyers on the team walk off during the previous offseason.
> 
> ...



It's because Lebron took over a 17 win team, and that same 17 win team now is a 42 win team.

It frustrates Lebron fans that Kobe fans just don't get it. When Lebron runs off the best player in the league and one of the best coaches of all-time from his team, in order to pursue his own numbers over winning championships--then there might be a comparison. But as of right now the only comparison is that right now Kobe has destroyed his image and team down to a level slightly below where Lebron is as a second year player out of high school.

The Lakers went from a team that was in the finals, to a team that finished with a much worse record than Lebron's team. Lebron actually contended for a playoff spot. Kobe was done for much of the last month.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Um... wasn't Kobe supposed to be doing that THIS year?



This year...next year...never...you're such a stickler Seanet.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



HKF said:


> Bogut is not a mean mother****er at all. Where is this coming from? He has a great mindset for the game, but he's no tough guy out there. He's a finesse Center in every definition of the word. He's skilled, but he's not even Robert Swift in terms of aggression towards the rim.
> 
> Cut the hyperbole out. I watch enough college basketball and this man is going to be getting yammed on all the time.



Where did that come from? While appreciate you big upping Robert Swift, who people also think is bust without seeing. But to say Bogut is a finesse center in every definition of the word is bit...I unno...completely baldfaced wrong. But I guess that just depends on your definition of a finesse center. My definition doesn't include much post play, or rebounding.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

LeBron 42 wins= cause for celebration, declarations of greatness, and comparisons to him are great compliments

Kobe 34 wins= cause for disdain, declarations of worthlessness, and overall he's a huge failure set up for mocking by white 20 year old stiffs

Imagine if LeBron wins 48 games!  Kobe better match him and win 70!


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> LeBron 42 wins= cause for celebration, declarations of greatness, and comparisons to him are great compliments
> 
> Kobe 34 wins= cause for disdain, declarations of worthlessness, and overall he's a huge failure set up for mocking by white 20 year old stiffs


It's all about context. You know what context is Jamel? And you act like Lebron didn't get blasted for his 42 wins. But that's how you Kobe fans like it. You like to feel like you're the only ones who are ever mailigned in this oh so conspiring against you world.

If you want to start a thread about Lebron, start one, but it's strictly you once again baiting me in this thread. First it was Noce, now it's Lebron. You going to start dissing Tim Duncan, now?


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> It's because Lebron took over a 17 win team, and that same 17 win team now is a 42 win team.
> 
> It frustrates Lebron fans that Kobe fans just don't get it. When Lebron runs off the best player in the league and one of the best coaches of all-time from his team, in order to pursue his own numbers over winning championships--then there might be a comparison. But as of right now the only comparison is that right now Kobe has destroyed his image and team down to a level slightly below where Lebron is as a second year player out of high school.
> 
> The Lakers went from a team that was in the finals, to a team that finished with a much worse record than Lebron's team. Lebron actually contended for a playoff spot. Kobe was done for much of the last month.


 :clap:


----------



## adarsh1 (May 28, 2003)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*

Next season:

Kobe goes in for a dunk attempting to posterize and Bogut levels Kobe to the floor sending Kobe out for three weeks with a separated shoulder.


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## Q8i (Oct 23, 2004)

Wtf? Why Is He Talkin?
Lick Ballz God Dammit


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> It's because Lebron took over a 17 win team, and that same 17 win team now is a 42 win team.
> 
> It frustrates Lebron fans that Kobe fans just don't get it. When Lebron runs off the best player in the league and one of the best coaches of all-time from his team, in order to pursue his own numbers over winning championships--then there might be a comparison. But as of right now the only comparison is that right now Kobe has destroyed his image and team down to a level slightly below where Lebron is as a second year player out of high school.
> 
> The Lakers went from a team that was in the finals, to a team that finished with a much worse record than Lebron's team. Lebron actually contended for a playoff spot. Kobe was done for much of the last month.


I don't think Lebron would want to play 2nd fiddle to someone for well over a decade if he felt he had the talent to be the best. Kobe felt 8 years was enough (especially with two years in a row of not winning it all) and again, Tim Duncan is a better player than Shaq, with a better work ethic to boot. 

If you're driven to want to be the No. 1 alpha dog, you'd be a sidekick your entire career? If that's the case, then you always wanted to be a sidekick and were to [edit] to be the MAN!


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

HKF said:


> I don't think Lebron would want to play 2nd fiddle to someone for well over a decade if he felt he had the talent to be the best. Kobe felt 8 years was enough (especially with two years in a row of not winning it all) and again, Tim Duncan is a better player than Shaq, with a better work ethic to boot.
> 
> If you're driven to want to be the No. 1 alpha dog, you'd be a sidekick your entire career? If that's the case, then you always wanted to be a sidekick and were to [edit] to be the MAN!



That seems to be the common argument, but is it really valid? Was Kobe going to have to play second fiddle his entire career? No. 2-3 more years at the most. 

Had Kobe a few years ago decided to accept his second fiddle role and the instruction of Phil, Lakers probably could have had maybe one more ring and they could have had the chance to go for a couple more, then Kobe could have had his team.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> It's all about context. You know what context is Jamel? And you act like Lebron didn't get blasted for his 42 wins. But that's how you Kobe fans like it. You like to feel like you're the only ones who are ever mailigned in this oh so conspiring against you world.
> 
> If you want to start a thread about Lebron, start one, but it's strictly you once again baiting me in this thread. First it was Noce, now it's Lebron. You going to start dissing Tim Duncan, now?


No, you are just inconsistent in your statements and opinions when it comes to your favorite players. You even admitted it in this thread with the Webber comments on Iverson. I just don't think you have any credability on this topic since you like Bogut and hate Kobe.

By the way don't call me a Kobe fan. I won't consider myself one until he leads the Lakers somewhere. And 42 wins won't be enough for me. :clown:


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## matt! (Feb 21, 2005)

HKF said:


> I don't think Lebron would want to play 2nd fiddle to someone for well over a decade if he felt he had the talent to be the best. Kobe felt 8 years was enough (especially with two years in a row of not winning it all) and again, Tim Duncan is a better player than Shaq, with a better work ethic to boot.
> 
> If you're driven to want to be the No. 1 alpha dog, you'd be a sidekick your entire career? If that's the case, then you always wanted to be a sidekick and were to [edit] to be the MAN!


I remember Jordan had some second fiddle guy for his whole career...he turned out okay.

What was his name again? He ever do anything?

Oh right, six titles, top 50 player of all time, and one of the best perimeter defenders ever. I'll bet he wishes he had his own team.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

matt! said:


> I remember Jordan had some second fiddle guy for his whole career...he turned out okay.
> 
> What was his name again? He ever do anything?
> 
> Oh right, six titles, top 50 player of all time, and one of the best perimeter defenders ever. I'll bet he wishes he had his own team.


He did get his own team. And he was exposed as a overrated pouter. Now some will argue that he got older (he was 33 when Jordan retired the second time) and never really fit in Portland or Houston, but if that is true than maybe he should of gotten his own team earlier so he wouldn't taint his legacy. 

I don't blame Kobe for wanting his own team, but as a Laker fan I have a right to be upset considering he didn't deliver. I care about the Lakers legacy a lot more than any individual Laker.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

HKF said:


> I don't think Lebron would want to play 2nd fiddle to someone for well over a decade if he felt he had the talent to be the best.


Given Lebron's skillset, he would have no problem wracking up championships giving the ball to Shaq. He doesn't have to lead the league 

Throughout his short career he has been about nothing but winning. Look at him in high school where he could have easily averaged 40ppg, instead he wanted to see his teammates succeed, because he knew that that was how you won titles.

Not everyone is like Kobe mentally. Some can in fact see beyond themselves. Case in point, Dwayne Wade. He knows where his bread is buttered. And he seems to get along with Shaq just fine. It's amazing what maturity will do.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> No, you are just inconsistent in your statements and opinions when it comes to your favorite players. You even admitted it in this thread with the Webber comments on Iverson. I just don't think you have any credability on this topic since you like Bogut and hate Kobe.


I suppose we'll just have to let someone who isn't a kobe fan(admitted or not) judge my credibility on this issue. If your whole purpose of being in this thread is to attack my credibility--well...don't you have better ways to waste your words?

Your credibility with me on anything Lakers isn't exactly high given what you said continually over the coarse of last year. Your little club for people who predicted the Lakers wouldn't win the title...yeah...how'd that little spot of arrogance work out for you? :laugh:

We're diametrically opposed on most basketball issues Jamel, so frankly I'm suprised my credibility is something you are at all worrying yourself about.

We have things where we are like-minded about. But Basketball is not one of them.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Debt Collector said:


> it seems like we havent had a kobe thread in a while and people are just venting. either way, this doesnt warrant 260+ replies.


No offense, but the evidence indicates otherwise.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

HKF said:


> I don't think Lebron would want to play 2nd fiddle to someone for well over a decade if he felt he had the talent to be the best. Kobe felt 8 years was enough (especially with two years in a row of not winning it all) and again, Tim Duncan is a better player than Shaq, with a better work ethic to boot.
> 
> If you're driven to want to be the No. 1 alpha dog, you'd be a sidekick your entire career? If that's the case, then you always wanted to be a sidekick and were to [edit] to be the MAN!


The necessary conclusion to this justification for Kobe's behaviour is that Kobe values his personal legacy/need to be THE man over winning. I would never want any player like that on a team of mine. Winning is what it is all about. That's the be all and the end all, and what you play for. You think Magic, Kareem and Worthy all got along? Bird, McHale, and the Chief? Moses and Dr. J? No, they had plenty of spats, and all wanted to be THE man themselves. But they put their pettiness aside and worked together to WIN, because that is what it is all about. And its what makes all of those dudes better NBA players (not necessarily more talented, but better NBA players) than Kobe. Kobe puts himself before winning and the team. IMO, that is unacceptable. There is a difference between being one of the most talented players and being the one of he best players. Kobe is certainly one of the most talented, if not THE most talented. But he is far from being the best, specifically because of everything you just said in your post. Being the best is about contributing the most to Winning (capital 'W,' intentional).


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> He did get his own team. And he was exposed as a overrated pouter.


Pippen led the Bulls to a record just a few games lower than the previous year, and that's while replacing Jordan with _nothing_ (not even a Lamar Odom). He also took them to within what many consider a bad call of the Eastern Conference Finals.

When Pippen got "his own team" in his prime, he proved that he was one of the great players of all-time and well-capable of leading a team to great success. Had he had his own "Pippen," another great player to compliment him, he could have taken his team even higher.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> The necessary conclusion to this justification for Kobe's behaviour is that Kobe values his personal legacy/need to be THE man over winning. I would never want any player like that on a team of mine. Winning is what it is all about. That's the be all and the end all, and what you play for. You think Magic, Kareem and Worthy all got along? Bird, McHale, and the Chief? Moses and Dr. J? No, they had plenty of spats, and all wanted to be THE man themselves. But they put their pettiness aside and worked together to WIN, because that is what it is all about. And its what makes all of those dudes better NBA players (not necessarily more talented, but better NBA players) than Kobe. Kobe puts himself before winning and the team. IMO, that is unacceptable. There is a difference between being one of the most talented players and being the one of he best players. Kobe is certainly one of the most talented, if not THE most talented. But he is far from being the best, specifically because of everything you just said in your post. Being the best is about contributing the most to Winning (capital 'W,' intentional).



Well done good sir.

OT: You haven't perchance listened to Shatner's latest album(Has Been) have you? It's genius I tells you. Genius. :biggrin: I've been trying to convince Minstrel of this for quite some time. He's all like **** Bill Shatner. And I'm all like, **** huuuuugggggh.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> I've been trying to convince Minstrel of this for quite some time. He's all like **** Bill Shatner. And I'm all like, **** huuuuugggggh.


Imagine if Shatner had any talent.

Other than unintentional comedic talent.


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## BallStateCards (Oct 14, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> It's because Lebron took over a 17 win team, and that same 17 win team now is a 42 win team.


I was merely drawing a parallel, because in both cases there is much more at play. That 17 win team was a very different team. Just look at the differences in the rosters. That's not even counting the fact that Zydrunas Ilgauskas finally became a healthy player. 

As the whole Cavaliers roster has improved (Harris, McInnis, etc.) over the previous (Hill, Coles, etc), Lakers have had a moer degenerative form. How many players are left over from last year? Kobe is the only remaining starter.

To give sole credit or blame for either situation is not only stupid, it is flat out ridiculous.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Imagine if Shatner had any talent.
> 
> Other than unintentional comedic talent.


The only thing unintentionally comedic here is your inability to recognize true genius.

What does Thom Yorke do? Just make music? Ha. That's cute.

Shatner is a jack of all trades. He writes books, acts in movies and television, does popular commercials, and makes banging tracks for the coffee houses. Thom Yorke doesn't want it with the Shat.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> I suppose we'll just have to let someone who isn't a kobe fan(admitted or not) judge my credibility on this issue. If your whole purpose of being in this thread is to attack my credibility--well...don't you have better ways to waste your words?
> 
> Your credibility with me on anything Lakers isn't exactly high given what you said continually over the coarse of last year. Your little club for people who predicted the Lakers wouldn't win the title...yeah...how'd that little spot of arrogance work out for you? :laugh:
> 
> ...


You should post this stuff about me being a Kobe fan on the Laker board. They would get a kick out of it.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> You should post this stuff about me being a Kobe fan on the Laker board. They would get a kick out of it.



So why don't you like Kobe? That seems kind of relevent to this thread. You used to like him. Why the change of heart?

Perhaps you share Mr. Bogut's frustration with Mr. Bryant?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> Pippen led the Bulls to a record just a few games lower than the previous year, and that's while replacing Jordan with _nothing_ (not even a Lamar Odom). He also took them to within what many consider a bad call of the Eastern Conference Finals.
> 
> When Pippen got "his own team" in his prime, he proved that he was one of the great players of all-time and well-capable of leading a team to great success. Had he had his own "Pippen," another great player to compliment him, he could have taken his team even higher.


He didn't have a Lamar Odom, his PF actually was a all-star unlike Lamar. And Kukaroach came in and had a good year despite Pippen claiming the fans went easy on him because he was white.

Again I think Kobe did fail last year and I got tired of his slow decision making and the way he would throw two head fakes after picking up his dribble and shooting anyways. And the way he would just start launching 3s in the 4th quarter of close games. God I got pissed watching Kobe play last year. 

But Pippen had the same all-star point guard and power forward from last year, same HOF coach and a new versatile rookie. Kobe had two different coaches, lost not only his Jordan (Shaq) but the 3 other starters (Payton, Malone and George to injury) along with the 4 best reserves (Fox, Fisher, Grant and Rush) and his new supporting cast ravished by injuries (Grant, Odom, George and Vlade). Bad comparison, Pippen had A LOT more to work with. In fact the next season they were a .500 team because they lost Grant prior to Jordan returning.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> So why don't you like Kobe? That seems kind of relevent to this thread. You used to like him. Why the change of heart?
> 
> Perhaps you share Mr. Bogut's frustration with Mr. Bryant?


 :laugh:


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> So why don't you like Kobe? That seems kind of relevent to this thread. You used to like him. Why the change of heart?
> 
> Perhaps you share Mr. Bogut's frustration with Mr. Bryant?


I was never a HUGE fan. But it all happened because of what went down this offseason. 

Phil had beef with Kobe
Shaq had beef with Kobe
Malone had beef with Kobe

Shaq had no beef with Phil
Phil had no beef with Malone

You get the point. I really used to think Shaq and Kobe were equally responsible, until everyone else started saying they had problems with Kobe as well. And then in a incredible act of disloyalty Buss dismissed everyone on the team that had ever bothered Kobe. Including the man that had delivered his franchise 3 titles who also happened to be my favorite Laker. So yes, I agree with Bogut, but I'm a fan that invests $ and hours into the team I have a right. Not some 20 year old college player that hasn't proven jack in his career. I didn't say anything when Shaq said it, he has every right to rub it in. Even Ray Allen, hes a accomplished guy that was going to be directly matched up against Kobe 4 times. If Bogut said something like this about LeBron I would find it equally ridiculous. However I'm convinced that had it been a player you don't like dissing a player you liked you would be up in arms.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

ClayVTrainum said:


> I was merely drawing a parallel, because in both cases there is much more at play. That 17 win team was a very different team. Just look at the differences in the rosters. That's not even counting the fact that Zydrunas Ilgauskas finally became a healthy player.
> 
> As the whole Cavaliers roster has improved (Harris, McInnis, etc.) over the previous (Hill, Coles, etc), Lakers have had a moer degenerative form. How many players are left over from last year? Kobe is the only remaining starter.
> 
> To give sole credit or blame for either situation is not only stupid, it is flat out ridiculous.


 You have to be kidding atleast make a cogent argument: you're bringing up Harris and McInnins as improvements? Harris averaged 2 ppg last season and why don't you go over to the Cavs site and check out all the McInnis threads about he tanked.

It is not ridiculous to give most of the credit to Lebron for the improvements in the Cavalier as the Cavs had the lowest PER rating of ANY backcourt last year. I don't really care if people constantly bring Lebron into these Kobe threads but atleast watch a few Cavs games before announcing that Harris and McInnis were "improvements" over prior years


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> But Pippen had the same all-star point guard and power forward from last year, same HOF coach and a new versatile rookie.


They had all those things the year before, with Jordan, except for Kukoc. While Kukoc was a good reserve, he wasn't within two orders of magnitude of Jordan's impact. So the talent drop-off from one year to the next was _huge_, yet the wins drop-off was negligible.

None of this adds up to Pippen being overrated. It suggests that Pippen, if anything, was underrated and was capable of stepping in and easing a lot of the loss of Jordan.



> Kobe had...
> ...
> Bad comparison, Pippen had A LOT more to work with.


I didn't compare Pippen and Kobe (though I _do_ think Pippen did more to elevate his teammates games than Kobe, while Kobe was the superior scorer). I simply disagree with your contention that Pippen's season with the Bulls without Jordan showed he was overrated. I think the facts of the season refute that and show that Pippen did a tremendous job of leading his team to success.

Incidentally, you mention that Grant and Armstrong were "All-Stars." Both made it for the first time in their careers in 1994, with Pippen as the team leader. It's not like they were established All-Stars that Pippen got to play with. More evidence that Pippen was capable of elevating his teammates' games.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> They had all those things the year before, with Jordan, except for Kukoc. While Kukoc was a good reserve, he wasn't within two orders of magnitude of Jordan's impact. So the talent drop-off from one year to the next was _huge_, yet the wins drop-off was negligible.
> 
> None of this adds up to Pippen being overrated. It suggests that Pippen, if anything, was underrated and was capable of stepping in and easing a lot of the loss of Jordan.
> 
> ...


 It's also interesting that Grant and Armstrong didn't exactly stay All-Stars after that year as well


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> I was never a HUGE fan. But it all happened because of what went down this offseason.
> 
> Phil had beef with Kobe
> Shaq had beef with Kobe
> ...



Well. It seems we do agree about something in basketball. We both think Kobe is responsible for dismantling a good team.

Well put 'er there good buddy. Welcome to the club. We never would have thought we'd be able to add one such as yourself.

Frankly I'm suprised there aren't more laker fans who feel the same way. You guys basically got screwed by a bunch of huge egos.

Just be glad it's not a chicago bulls situation, where Krause threw everyone out of the kitchen. At least you still have Kobe. All we had left was Toni Kukoc and Brent Barry.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> They had all those things the year before, with Jordan, except for Kukoc. While Kukoc was a good reserve, he wasn't within two orders of magnitude of Jordan's impact. So the talent drop-off from one year to the next was _huge_, yet the wins drop-off was negligible.
> 
> None of this adds up to Pippen being overrated. It suggests that Pippen, if anything, was underrated and was capable of stepping in and easing a lot of the loss of Jordan.
> 
> ...


I think it had more to do with the fact that Jordan's void meant everyone had to step up and got more shots. Not just Pippen. People used to claim that Pippen and Jordan were the two best players in the league. I think Pippen's Jordan-less seasons including 94, most of 95, 99, 00, 01, 02 show that he was a deserving perennial all-star, but not one of the top 5 players and a horrible leader. Grant left in the midst of bitter disputes with him and Kruase. He couldn't keep Rasheed in check the way Larry Brown has and took a Blazer team polluted with talent no where. He even got outplayed by 20 year Kobe in losing in the first round in 99.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> The necessary conclusion to this justification for Kobe's behaviour is that Kobe values his personal legacy/need to be THE man over winning. I would never want any player like that on a team of mine. Winning is what it is all about. That's the be all and the end all, and what you play for. You think Magic, Kareem and Worthy all got along? Bird, McHale, and the Chief? Moses and Dr. J? No, they had plenty of spats, and all wanted to be THE man themselves. But they put their pettiness aside and worked together to WIN, because that is what it is all about. And its what makes all of those dudes better NBA players (not necessarily more talented, but better NBA players) than Kobe. Kobe puts himself before winning and the team. IMO, that is unacceptable. There is a difference between being one of the most talented players and being the one of he best players. Kobe is certainly one of the most talented, if not THE most talented. But he is far from being the best, specifically because of everything you just said in your post. Being the best is about contributing the most to Winning (capital 'W,' intentional).


This is a poor argument, because Kobe did subjugate his game for 3 championship years with the Lakers. This would be a better argument, if the Lakers won no titles and Kobe sabotaged every single title run. To make the claim that the Lakers won inspite of Kobe is flat out wrong and that's the assertion I'm receiving here. They won the titles and he felt it was time for a change.

Again, the Lakers did not win the title for two straight seasons trying to put together makeshift teams. They did not break up title winning teams. They lost the last two years, fair and square. 

So your entire post here, is null and void.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Well done good sir.
> 
> OT: You haven't perchance listened to Shatner's latest album(Has Been) have you? It's genius I tells you. Genius. :biggrin: I've been trying to convince Minstrel of this for quite some time. He's all like **** Bill Shatner. And I'm all like, **** huuuuugggggh.


You know, I've been meaning to get it, but I haven't yet. I did however listen to the selections from it (w/ accompanying interview and commentary from Bill himself) on shatnerhasbeen.com. It is truly classic stuff. And the music behind it is excellent (Ben Folds Five). IMO, William Shatner is the most quintessentially postmodern entertainer in the world. There is absolutely no grounding for the context within which to understand what he is doing. Is he serious? Is he joking? Is he completely ****ing insane? No one knows (and I'm sure Shatner doesn't care as long as the checks keep rolling in). One day I went on Amazon and read the reviews of Has Been. It was awesome. Some people were like, "I hated it, he's such a pompous *******." Other's were like, "Hilarious!!! Couldn't stop laughing!!!" And my favorite ones were, "I don't know if he's serious or not, but I ****ing love it!"


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> You know, I've been meaning to get it, but I haven't yet. I did however listen to the selections from it (w/ accompanying interview and commentary from Bill himself) on shatnerhasbeen.com. It is truly classic stuff. And the music behind it is excellent (Ben Folds Five). IMO, William Shatner is the most quintessentially postmodern entertainer in the world. There is absolutely no grounding for the context within which to understand what he is doing. Is he serious? Is he joking? Is he completely ****ing insane? No one knows (and I'm sure Shatner doesn't care as long as the checks keep rolling in). One day I went on Amazon and read the reviews of Has Been. It was awesome. Some people were like, "I hated it, he's such a pompous *******." Other's were like, "Hilarious!!! Couldn't stop laughing!!!" And my favorite ones were, "I don't know if he's serious or not, but I ****ing love it!"



If I hadn't already repped you, I would do it again.
You see that Minstrel! You see that. That's called "getting it". You should try it sometime. It's pretty cool when the world all comes together and makes perfect sense. This is a man who "gets it".


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

HKF said:


> This is a poor argument, because Kobe did subjugate his game for 3 championship years with the Lakers. This would be a better argument, if the Lakers won no titles and Kobe sabotaged every single title run. To make the claim that the Lakers won inspite of Kobe is flat out wrong and that's the assertion I'm receiving here. They won the titles and he felt it was time for a change.
> 
> Again, the Lakers did not win the title for two straight seasons trying to put together makeshift teams. They did not break up title winning teams. They lost the last two years, fair and square.
> 
> So your entire post here, is null and void.


Null and void, huh? So he didn't break up a team that could have continued to compete for a championship for another 5 years? And Bird and McHale and Moses and Dr. J and Kareem and Magic did the same as him as well, I suppose? You're right, he only pouted and whined the whole way to the last two championships and the two seasons they didn't win. And then broke up the team. He REALLY puts winning first. :whatever:


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> If I hadn't already repped you, I would do it again.
> You see that Minstrel! You see that. That's called "getting it". You should try it sometime. It's pretty cool when the world all comes together and makes perfect sense. This is a man who "gets it".


lol, thanks man. Gotta love Bill.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> Null and void, huh? So he didn't break up a team that could have continued to compete for a championship for another 5 years? And Bird and McHale and Moses and Dr. J and Kareem and Magic did the same as him as well, I suppose? You're right, he only pouted and whined the whole way to the last two championships and the two seasons they didn't win. And then broke up the team. He REALLY puts winning first. :whatever:


The Lakers were a Derek Fisher shot away from losing in the Conference Semifinals to the Spurs two years in a row. Yet, you feel they would have been a championship contender for the next 5 years. Are you nuts? That would make Shaq 37 years old, with a 30 million dollar salary and Kobe 31 at the end of the that. 

There was no way those two guys were going to win anymore titles together. Facts:

1. They didn't like each other.
2. Role players getting worse and worse.
3. Young players, poorly drafted and don't fit into the triangle.
4. Shaq's work ethic was really poor and he's getting old fast. If it takes a trade for Shaq to lose weight and get his big *** in shape, then ship him out. 

I don't really care. Facts are the Lakers didn't win the title last year (they got manhandled) and they didn't win the year before. See people point to the Bulls breaking up a championship team (it was inevitable with the lockout coming up), but at least they had won the last 3 titles. 

Stop making stuff up.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

HKF said:


> The Lakers were a Derek Fisher shot away from losing in the Conference Semifinals to the Spurs two years in a row. Yet, you feel they would have been a championship contender for the next 5 years. Are you nuts? That would make Shaq 37 years old, with a 30 million dollar salary and Kobe 31 at the end of the that.
> 
> There was no way those two guys were going to win anymore titles together. Facts:
> 
> ...


Because I disagree w/ you I'm making stuff up? Wtf? You are a better poster and a smarter person than that. But to support my point of view... if you've been watching the Daddy in the playoffs this year, you would be able to see that he will continue to be effective for quite some time. Even crippled he's getting 20 points and making the game easier for everyone around him. And then you should look at your own list, specifically #1. Then blame Kobe's selfish ***. If you're wondering why one should blame Kobe, check out Bogut's comments at the beginning of this thread. He's got the situation dead on.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> Because I disagree w/ you I'm making stuff up? Wtf? If you've been watching the Daddy in the playoffs this year, you would be able to see that he will continue to be effective for quite some time. Even crippled he's getting 20 points and making the game easier for everyone around him. And then you should look at your own list, specifically #1. Then blame Kobe's selfish ***. If you're wondering why one should blame Kobe, check out Bogut's comments at the beginning of this thread. He's got the situation dead on.


We must be watching two different Shaqs, because I see a guy who is one more injury away from being a 30 million dollar albatross on whichever team is paying him.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

HKF said:


> We must be watching two different Shaqs, because I see a guy who is one more injury away from being a 30 million dollar albatross on whichever team is paying him.


A guy gets a bone bruise on his thigh right before the playoffs, and you forget that he was the runner up for MVP, and in the eyes of many should have won it?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> A guy gets a bone bruise on his thigh right before the playoffs, and you forget that he was the runner up for MVP, and in the eyes of many should have won it?


Let's just say this will be typical of Shaq for the rest of his limited career. Check the career slope of centers after they turn 32. It's pretty grim.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

HKF said:


> Let's just say this will be typical of Shaq for the rest of his limited career. Check the career slope of centers after they turn 32. It's pretty grim.


Certainly a possibility. But, if I was a GM, I'd take the gamble on the Daddy. Not alot of other players in the league who you can say, if this guy is on my team and he's healthy, we've got a great shot at the championship. And wrt/ the Daddy, they've still got a great shot at the championship even w/ him hobbled.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> People used to claim that Pippen and Jordan were the two best players in the league. I think Pippen's Jordan-less seasons including 94, most of 95, 99, 00, 01, 02 show that he was a deserving perennial all-star, but not one of the top 5 players and a horrible leader.


Phil Jackson has said more than once that Pippen was just as much a leader on the Bulls teams as Jordan. Steve Kerr said the same, of his experiences on the Bulls. Most of his Blazers teammates also said Pippen was the leader and set the tone. I think Phil Jackson and his teammates are more reputable sources on his leadership than you.

I think 1994 and 1995 did nothing to dispute that Pippen was a top-5 player in his prime. I think they reinforced it. 1999, in Houston, he was used as a post-feeder and three-point shooter, which did nothing to play to his strengths as a slasher and play-maker.

His Blazers years were past his prime, but he was clearly still a very good player and leader. The Blazers collapsed in 2003-04 after his departure, and it was clear that they had no focus or cohesion on offense without Pippen directing the offense,



> He couldn't keep Rasheed in check the way Larry Brown has


Rasheed Wallace had the best years of his career alongside Pippen. Brown has done little to curb Wallace's technicals. You're simply describing it the way you'd like it to be, rather than the way the facts show it to be. In 2000 and 2001, Wallace was considered a top player in the NBA, in the top tier of power forwards with Duncan, Garnett, Malone and Webber. That was with Pippen.

Over and over, the pattern is clear: players seem to have their best performances with Pippen as the leader.



> and took a Blazer team polluted with talent no where.


Incorrect. He took them to the Western Conference Finals. Phil Jackson has some interesting quotes about that series. One was, "Take Pippen off the Blazers and the series isn't close." The other was, "I said that Pippen couldn't guard the whole team and I was right. Just Shaq, Kobe and Harper."

Phil Jackson very much wanted Pippen on the Lakers when he joined the team. From that desire and all his quotes, he clearly has a very different conception of Pippen than you do.


----------



## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



ChrisWoj said:


> I agree 100%, Tim... that is why Sith is annoying me so much, he just posts on these comparison threads (mind you, I did one, but hell, he asked for it...) even though they don't really matter. At least the Suns w/ Kobe thread was a decent idea, this thread has no point, I am definitely calling for it to be merged with the rest of the Bogut/Kobe stuff.
> 
> 
> -Chris.


this is why people like you chris annoy me so much, i just feel bad for kobe, he let his games do the talking, and yet some no name newbies that have never played a min in the NBA take a shot at him for no legit reasons. then there are people like you chris who come out and continue to bash kobe and defend bogut.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Pippen is an all-time great. And I'd like to say I agree w/ Minstrel's comments about Pippen's leadership on the Bulls. I remember hearing Pippen and Jordan say that Jordan was the swift kick in the *** type, and Pippen was the nurturer. They worked well together, and quite frankly, Jordan as great as he was, needed Pippen to play that roll, and needed Pippen to be as good as he was so he'd have some legitimacy leading on a team w/ Jordan, or the Bulls don't dominate the way they did. Jordan is just too unyielding and demanding of others to lead effectively, wo/ a counterbalancing force and more supportive co-leader. Its why he and Doug Collins were awful together. They both just rode dudes and the team into the ground.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



Sith said:


> this is why people like you chris annoy me so much, i just feel bad for kobe, he let his games do the talking, and yet some no name newbies that have never played a min in the NBA take a shot at him for no legit reasons. then there are people like you chris who come out and continue to bash kobe and defend bogut.


Opinions... we've all got them.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> Phil Jackson has said more than once that Pippen was just as much a leader on the Bulls teams as Jordan. Steve Kerr said the same, of his experiences on the Bulls. Most of his Blazers teammates also said Pippen was the leader and set the tone. I think Phil Jackson and his teammates are more reputable sources on his leadership than you.


I consider Phil Jackson a more reputable source on basketball than any person on this earth, but he's not here. What am I supposed to do when you post a bunch of Phil Jackson quotes? Give me Minstrel's take.

Phil Jackson also said Kobe is the most physically talented player in the NBA. He also said of McGrady that every time he is asked to play D he responds with "my back hurts" so I take it you agree with both points?



> I think 1994 and 1995 did nothing to dispute that Pippen was a top-5 player in his prime. I think they reinforced it. 1999, in Houston, he was used as a post-feeder and three-point shooter, which did nothing to play to his strengths as a slasher and play-maker.


94 and 95 were great but overrated years. He had everyone on the team step up and added a multi talented 6'10" player. When he lost Grant the team was a 500 ball club in danger of being in the lottery. The fact that he was used as a post-feeder and 3 point shooter show how overrated his talent was. If you get Shaq on your team you don't use him as a pick setter and a shot blocker, regardless of who is on the roster.



> His Blazers years were past his prime, but he was clearly still a very good player and leader. The Blazers collapsed in 2003-04 after his departure, and it was clear that they had no focus or cohesion on offense without Pippen directing the offense,


They collapsed after 2000, getting swept two years in a row in round 1. He was still young and prime enough to take 5 other former all-stars + Sabonis, Grant, Stoudmaire and Wells to a ring. 



> Rasheed Wallace had the best years of his career alongside Pippen. Brown has done little to curb Wallace's technicals. You're simply describing it the way you'd like it to be, rather than the way the facts show it to be. In 2000 and 2001, Wallace was considered a top player in the NBA, in the top tier of power forwards with Duncan, Garnett, Malone and Webber. That was with Pippen.


Under Brown he is getting 40 techs a year and being suspended by his own team and the league for things like attacking refs in parking lots and throwing towels on teammates. Has he ever even been ejected from a playoff game as a Piston? And Rasheed won a title with Billups, Hamilton, Prince, Wallace, Williamson and Hunter when in 2001 he couldn't get out of the first round with a much better Blazer team. And I still think he's just right below Garnett and Duncan. You always overrated him in those two years, saying stuff like he was better than Kobe and Webber.



> Over and over, the pattern is clear: players seem to have their best performances with Pippen as the leader.


I'll buy this, but they have better team success elsewhere.


> Incorrect. He took them to the Western Conference Finals. Phil Jackson has some interesting quotes about that series. One was, "Take Pippen off the Blazers and the series isn't close." The other was, "I said that Pippen couldn't guard the whole team and I was right. Just Shaq, Kobe and Harper."
> 
> Phil Jackson very much wanted Pippen on the Lakers when he joined the team. From that desire and all his quotes, he clearly has a very different conception of Pippen than you do.


Phil is not here to read anything I write in response. Glad Pippen didn't join the Lakers though. Keeping him off resulted in 3 rings.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> I consider Phil Jackson a more reputable source on basketball than any person on this earth, but he's not here. What am I supposed to do when you post a bunch of Phil Jackson quotes? Give me Minstrel's take.


I've given plenty of my takes. I just think Jackson's takes add some credence.



> Phil Jackson also said Kobe is the most physically talented player in the NBA. He also said of McGrady that every time he is asked to play D he responds with "my back hurts" so I take it you agree with both points?


He never coached McGrady, and he's famous for belittling players on other teams. His supposed "mind games."

As to Bryant, he could be right about that. Bryant is an amazing physical talent.



> 94 and 95 were great but overrated years. He had everyone on the team step up and added a multi talented 6'10" player. When he lost Grant the team was a 500 ball club in danger of being in the lottery.


Right, so after losing Jordan _and_ the team's best rebounder, the Bulls were finally in trouble. You're suggesting that if Pippen were _really_ great, you should be able to take every scrap of talent away with no effect? High standards you hold for Pippen, but not very realistic.



> The fact that he was used as a post-feeder and 3 point shooter show how overrated his talent was.


No, it just shows that Tomjanovich improperly used Pippen. Regardless of what you think of Pippen's talent level, you'd use him in the role that he provides the most value. A three-point shooter to off-set post-players is obviously not hie best value, as he was never a dead-eye three-point shooter.



> They collapsed after 2000, getting swept two years in a row in round 1. He was still young and prime enough to take 5 other former all-stars + Sabonis, Grant, Stoudmaire and Wells to a ring.


Grant was gone, actually. For 300-pound Kemp. 5 other former all-stars? Bill Russell is a "former All-Star." Do you want him as the Lakers' center today? Try to avoid deceptive language. A "former All-Star" means nothing. What they were at that time is what matters.

Pippen was a couple seasons from effective retirement then (in 2003-04, he played half a season before injuries ended his career), so I don't know how you're substantiating your claim that he was still "young and prime enough" to lead those Blazers to a ring.



> Under Brown he is getting 40 techs a year and being suspended by his own team and the league for things like attacking refs in parking lots and throwing towels on teammates.


He's still one of the league leaders in techs and just got fined by the NBA. He's hardly a docile fellow now.



> And Rasheed won a title with Billups, Hamilton, Prince, Wallace, Williamson and Hunter when in 2001 he couldn't get out of the first round with a much better Blazer team.


The 2001 Blazer team was not much better than last year's Pistons team. It wasn't even as good. Let's see, you feel Sheed was overrated back then, Pippen was nothing, yet those teams were so talented. Must've been Damon Stoudamire who was the epic legend making those teams so talented. Or was it "former All-Star" Detlef Schrempf?



> And I still think he's just right below Garnett and Duncan. You always overrated him in those two years, saying stuff like he was better than Kobe and Webber.


You're the only one who currently places him just below Duncan and Garnett. And it wasn't just me who placed him at that level in 1999-2001. After he averaged 30 ppg against the Lakers in the WCF, many people were putting Wallace in the upper echelon of players.



> Glad Pippen didn't join the Lakers though. Keeping him off resulted in 3 rings.


Just empty vitriol. That's fine.

Making random unsubstantiated claims is easy. Had Pippen joined the Lakers, they'd have won 5 straight titles, so keeping him off cost the Lakers two rings. See, easy. And useless.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> I've given plenty of my takes. I just think Jackson's takes add some credence.


Fair, but I can't respond to them.



> He never coached McGrady, and he's famous for belittling players on other teams. His supposed "mind games."
> 
> As to Bryant, he could be right about that. Bryant is an amazing physical talent.


He got no benefit from playing mind games since he was retired at this point. 



> Right, so after losing Jordan _and_ the team's best rebounder, the Bulls were finally in trouble. You're suggesting that if Pippen were _really_ great, you should be able to take every scrap of talent away with no effect? High standards you hold for Pippen, but not very realistic.


Horace Grant shouldn't be a good enough excuse to go fro 56 win team to lottery. Especially when they added Harper. They lost Jordan and weren't much worse, but I think no one on that team raised their game more than Grant. Even if Pippen was the MVP on the team. 



> No, it just shows that Tomjanovich improperly used Pippen. Regardless of what you think of Pippen's talent level, you'd use him in the role that he provides the most value. A three-point shooter to off-set post-players is obviously not hie best value, as he was never a dead-eye three-point shooter.


You set-up your team around superstars at all times. Tomjanovich obviously didn't feel Pippen was good enough to go away from his method of using perimeter players to feed the post guys and launch 3s. Interesting enough, he abandoned that style of play the very next season when he got Francis.



> Grant was gone, actually. For 300-pound Kemp.


No he wasn't. Kemp got there in the 2000-01 season. Grant played in the 2000 playoffs and got dunked on by Shaq in that famous alley-oop after Kobe crossed up Pippen.



> 5 other former all-stars? Bill Russell is a "former All-Star." Do you want him as the Lakers' center today? Try to avoid deceptive language. A "former All-Star" means nothing. What they were at that time is what matters.


Well yes, but Smith was 2 years removed from the all-star game, Schrempf 3, Wallace that same season and Pippen 2 years himself. In the summer of 2000 they added 98 All Star Kemp and 00 All Star Davis.



> Pippen was a couple seasons from effective retirement then (in 2003-04, he played half a season before injuries ended his career), so I don't know how you're substantiating your claim that he was still "young and prime enough" to lead those Blazers to a ring.


04 I'll buy, but in 00 and 01 he was 33 and 34. I expect many current player by the time they are 33 year olds, like Jason Kidd, Shaq, Kobe, Nowitzki and a lot more, to be able to lead that type of roster to a ring.



> He's still one of the league leaders in techs and just got fined by the NBA. He's hardly a docile fellow now.


Right, but he's not a out of control maniac that frequently costs your team and is generally undependable.



> The 2001 Blazer team was not much better than last year's Pistons team. It wasn't even as good. Let's see, you feel Sheed was overrated back then, Pippen was nothing, yet those teams were so talented. Must've been Damon Stoudamire who was the epic legend making those teams so talented. Or was it "former All-Star" Detlef Schrempf?


Was not much better, sure. But there is a vast difference between rings versus getting swept out of round 1.

Your sarcastic hyperbole adds nothing to the conversation. Stoudmaire wasn't much worse than Billups last year. Detroit wished they had a bench like Wells, Augmon, Schrempf, Anthony, Kemp and Dale Davis. The 01 Blazers were EAISLY the most talented team never to win a single playoff game in NBA HISTORY. I dare you to dispute that.



> You're the only one who currently places him just below Duncan and Garnett. And it wasn't just me who placed him at that level in 1999-2001. After he averaged 30 ppg against the Lakers in the WCF, many people were putting Wallace in the upper echelon of players.


I meant in the TIER below them. I was responding to your point about tiers. You probably even read it that way but twisted it to make it seem like I'm a Sheed jersey rocking idiot. He's just as talented as he was back then, but he's always been a player that is content to let other score. His D is still just as good.



> Just empty vitriol fine.


I hate Pippen.



> Making random unsubstantiated claims is easy. Had Pippen joined the Lakers, they'd have won 5 straight titles, so keeping him off cost the Lakers two rings. See, easy. And useless.


Way to stoop to my level. :greatjob: But I actually meant something by that. I'm glad the decision was made for the same reason I was glad the Jones trade was made. Sure the Lakers could of won 5 in a row, but its harder to be more sucessful than 3 in 5 years.

Anyways I hate Pippen and feel he's a boaster that is quick to whine and make excuses when he can't get his way. The way he retired (suckering the Bulls into giving him 9 mil for nothing) is the epitome of a guy who whined about money his whole career. Tmac and Penny are the only guys in his class, maybe Spree as well. I got enough productive Pippen bashing done today.

Back to Bogut.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

This thread is epic. It's been everywhere. Literally, what else is left that hasn't been discussed in this thread? Shatner, Kobe, Bogut, Pippen, Jordan...just all over the place. Lebron made an appearence. The Argentine national team. And that's just the stuff I had a part in.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

6th man was the worst of a series of crappy basketball movies I've seen in my life.

I wanted to see the Denis Rodman/Van Damme movie but my dad made me go to the 6th man because my little sister was deemed to young to see a R movie and she had a huge crush on Marlon Wayans. Marlon Wayans is also the most overrated in the family. Damon and Keenan were much better In Living Color. Also David Alan Grier was the best cast member of that show.


----------



## radronOmega (Aug 1, 2004)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*

I predict this will happen


----------



## PoorPoorSonics (Mar 20, 2004)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



Sith said:


> and yet some no name newbies that have never played a min in the NBA



Pretty much the guaranteed #1 pick is a no name newbie? Ok.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*

It's impossible for Kobe to posterize someone worse than he did Howard. That was just plain disgraceful.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> Horace Grant shouldn't be a good enough excuse to go fro 56 win team to lottery.


I think you underestimate the effect of losing the rebounding battle. Without a strong power forward, the Bulls were at a disadvantage in a lot of games. As kflo is fond of pointing out, teams that are bad at rebounding tend to be bad teams. With Pippen _and_ Jordan, they at least had enough talent to get through a couple rounds of the playoffs despite being weak up front. With just Pippen as superstar talent, it's not at all hard to see that they'd struggle from being weak up front.



> You set-up your team around superstars at all times. Tomjanovich obviously didn't feel Pippen was good enough to go away from his method of using perimeter players to feed the post guys and launch 3s. Interesting enough, he abandoned that style of play the very next season when he got Francis.


Tomjanovich had his entrenched system of feeding the post, built around Olajuwon, for the past decade. Short of acquiring Jordan (maybe), I don't think he was going to change it.

The "very next season" Barkley and Olajuwon barely played half a season each, so Tomjanovich was forced to change his system by necessity.



> No he wasn't. Kemp got there in the 2000-01 season.


And I was responding to this comment of yours: _They collapsed *after 2000*, getting swept two years in a row in round 1. He was still young and prime enough to take 5 other former all-stars + Sabonis, Grant, Stoudmaire and Wells to a ring._

Grant was not there "after 2000." Kemp was.



> Well yes, but Smith was 2 years removed from the all-star game, Schrempf 3, Wallace that same season and Pippen 2 years himself. In the summer of 2000 they added 98 All Star Kemp and 00 All Star Davis.


Sure, but Pippen, Smith, Schrempf, Kemp and Davis were clearly not All-Star performers in 2000-2001 (again, your comment regarded "after 2000") or beyond. That's what matters. Wallace was an All-Star-caliber player.



> 04 I'll buy, but in 00 and 01 he was 33 and 34. I expect many current player by the time they are 33 year olds, like Jason Kidd, Shaq, Kobe, Nowitzki and a lot more, to be able to lead that type of roster to a ring.


I wouldn't. You seem determined to overrate that roster just to prove your point about Pippen. Nowitzki didn't lead a _better roster_ to the title this season. Why would he be able to lead that Blazer roster to a title at 33-34? None of those players at 33-34, if they replaced Pippen, would have pushed those Blazers to a title. Not even a _prime_ version of any of those players would have, except Shaq.



> Right, but he's not a out of control maniac that frequently costs your team and is generally undependable.


He wasn't with the Blazers, either. He was simply portrayed that way by the media because it made for a better "Jailblazers" story. He's the same guy he always was, but when you play for a champion, your flaws become charming. When the Nets made the Finals and lost, an announcer called Kidd "one of the true good guys of the NBA." So even if you beat your wife, you're a "good guy" if you win.



> Your sarcastic hyperbole adds nothing to the conversation. Stoudmaire wasn't much worse than Billups last year. Detroit wished they had a bench like Wells, Augmon, Schrempf, Anthony, Kemp and Dale Davis. The 01 Blazers were EAISLY the most talented team never to win a single playoff game in NBA HISTORY. I dare you to dispute that.


My sarcasm didn't add much, no, but the point is still solid. You disparage Wallace and Pippen, the two best players on that team, and yet seem to think they were remarkably talented. Billups is much better than Stoudamire. Billups actually plays defense. Billups doesn't kill the offense with stand-still metronomic dribbling. The Pistons might like that bench, but they had a superior starting five.

And I have no idea whether that Blazers team was the most talented team in history not to win a playoff game, not remembering every team didn't win a playoff game throughout history. That team was reasonably talented, but got a bad draw, playing a Lakers team that went on a huge tear through the playoffs. The Kings and Spurs also failed to win a game against LA that year. Had they faced the Lakers in the first round, one of those two teams would be your "most talented team never to win a playoff game." It's a fairly meaningless issue.



> I meant in the TIER below them. I was responding to your point about tiers. You probably even read it that way but twisted it to make it seem like I'm a Sheed jersey rocking idiot.


No, I wasn't trying to twist anything. I've run up against opinions so counter to mine, I assume people mean what they say. You said "just below," so I figured you meant that. Honestly.



> He's just as talented as he was back then, but he's always been a player that is content to let other score. His D is still just as good.


His defense is just as good, but he was more motivated to score and played in the low-post more in 1999-2000 and 2000-01. Both of those things made him a better player.



> I hate Pippen.


Okay.



> Way to stoop to my level. :greatjob: But I actually meant something by that. I'm glad the decision was made for the same reason I was glad the Jones trade was made. Sure the Lakers could of won 5 in a row, but its harder to be more sucessful than 3 in 5 years.


It worked out for LA in that they won anyway. Sure. Your implication that Pippen would have cost them championships had no argumentative merit. But I think you knew that. As I said, just vitriol. 



> Anyways I hate Pippen and feel he's a boaster that is quick to whine and make excuses when he can't get his way. The way he retired (suckering the Bulls into giving him 9 mil for nothing) is the epitome of a guy who whined about money his whole career.


That's ridiculous. You act like Pippen signed the deal with no intent to play it out. He got injured. That happens, and it's a risk to teams on every contract. Pippen didn't cheat them, as you imply. Pippen had had injuries in each of the previous four years. The trend was obvious and Chicago chose to sign him anyway. Call Paxson an idiot, if you want, but Pippen didn't mislead anyone.

And I don't think Pippen is a "boaster" any more than Shaq, Jordan, Barkley, Bird, etc, were boasters.



> Tmac and Penny are the only guys in his class, maybe Spree as well. I got enough productive Pippen bashing done today.


Oh and Kobe right? It's fairly absurd that you call Pippen, McGrady and Hardaway out for "wanting it their own way" and not Bryant, who probably had the most crippling effect any player has had on a team in NBA history due to "wanting it his own way" (and yes, Jackson and Shaq were also to blame).

But I'm sure that was an innocent oversight. After all, you "don't like" Kobe.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> And I don't think Pippen is a "boaster" any more than Shaq, Jordan, Barkley, Bird, etc, were boasters.


Those guys won rings, MVPs, finals MVPs etc as the undisputed leader and go-to guy. Except Barkley, he's generally regarded as a idiot that speaks first thinks later. In short they backed it up and never made excuses. I never saw Jordan as a boaster, outside of trash talking within a game.




> Oh and Kobe right? It's fairly absurd that you call Pippen, McGrady and Hardaway out for "wanting it their own way" and not Bryant, who probably had the most crippling effect any player has had on a team in NBA history due to "wanting it his own way" (and yes, Jackson and Shaq were also to blame).
> 
> But I'm sure that was an innocent oversight. After all, you "don't like" Kobe.


What the hell are you talking about? I never said anything like that. I said they were boasters that whined and made excuses when their BOASTS didn't go their way. Not that they wanted their own way.

I don't like Kobe for reasons already stated in this thread. But at least he attempts to disguise what he is by only talking to Buss and not whining in the media and making stupid comments.

I'm really done with the Pippen talk, but I just felt my opinion was misrepresented in that last post.


----------



## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



Sith said:


> this is why people like you chris annoy me so much, i just feel bad for kobe, he let his games do the talking, and yet some no name newbies that have never played a min in the NBA take a shot at him for no legit reasons. then there are people like you chris who come out and continue to bash kobe and defend bogut.


You feel bad for Kobe? LOL.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*

When did Andrew Bogut become Danny Fortson? Bogut is a finesse big man and I can't imagine he'll lay out anyone over the course of his whole career. I know some of you want Bogut to lay out Kobe when Kobe attacks the rim, but that's wishful thinking, because that's not how Bogut plays. Thank God too, I would lose a lot of respect for him if he tried to lay someone out, and I wouldn't lose an ounce of respect for him if Kobe dunked on him while he was there trying to block the shot. 

Great shotblockers get dunked on, because they're *always* there at the rim, and it's just a numbers game. I don't know if Bogut will be a great shotblocker, but I would rather have my big man at the rim contesting, changing and blocking shots regardless of how much they get dunked on. The guys who don't get dunked on are the guys who duck out and never contest shots. I lose way more respect for those guys than the guys who are always there, even if they get a facial now and then.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*

Bogut? A finesse big man? Whah? Pardon?

I heard he once shot a man in reno, just to watch him die. That Andrew Bogut is a mean mofo.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> Those guys won rings, MVPs, finals MVPs etc as the undisputed leader and go-to guy.


None of them (obviously, not including Jordan) would have been "undisputed leader and go-to guy" or won Finals MVPs, MVPs had they played alongside Jordan and durng Jordan's prime, so that's a fairly meaningless point. In Pippen's one prime season without Jordan, he was considered a leading MVP candidate.



> What the hell are you talking about? I never said anything like that. I said they were boasters that whined and made excuses when their BOASTS didn't go their way. Not that they wanted their own way.


Okay, I misread your opinion, then. I don't think Pippen is a boaster or a whiner. Nor is/was McGrady and Hardaway...or Sprewell, for that matter, though Sprewell has other issues.

Okay. Back to Bogut.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*

Bogut has excellent footwork with his back to the basket, or facing up, and he has a really great touch. He can shoot the rock all the way out to the three. He also is an excellent passer anywhere on the court. That is the definition of a finesse big man. 

Bogut is not a bruiser. Not even close. If Bogut is a bruiser, then so is Brad Miller, which of course is humorous.


----------



## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



Sith said:


> this is why people like you chris annoy me so much, i just feel bad for kobe, he let his games do the talking, and yet some no name newbies that have never played a min in the NBA take a shot at him for no legit reasons. then there are people like you chris who come out and continue to bash kobe and defend bogut.


*scratches head*

You. are. a. bleeping. moron.

I agreed with you that Kobe would win an NBA MVP. I agreed with you that he would lead the Lakers back to the Title. I predicted almost the same stats as you, though with a few points less, but more assists/boards, which basically puts him in better light than even YOU did. I said this thread was pointless and deserved to be merged. I even said your own thread on the Kobe/Suns issue was a good one.

But you come out and say I annoy you for bashing Kobe?

I defended Bogut for having an opinion, like every red-blooded American (he is foreign, but raised Australian is similar to being raised American, very close attitudes, and a working class parental unit, which gives him a mean-streak to his personality). I defended him for saying what he wanted. Was it lacking in tact? Sure. But he was being himself, nothing else.

He was NOT being a corporate image-whore like a certain numero ocho de Los Angelos. That's right, I said it, I did bash Kobe. He's a spectacular player: But he is an image whore. Which annoys me. Yes, it annoys me. There isn't much of anything wrong with it, but the man simply does whatever he can to make sure he looks good. He needed to eliminate Shaq from his team because, with Shaq, he couldn't look like the next Jordan (his idol, whom he has SAID he wants to emulate to the closest point possible, including becoming the greatest ever). 

Maybe he annoys me, but I gave him his props as an NBA SuperStar, potential Hall of Famer (he isn't there yet, but he will be), and a possible (very very slim) chance of becoming one of the greatest to play the game. I gave him those props. I do not constantly bash him.

You annoy me because YOU DON'T READ POSTS. You skim them and then you take what you want to make yourself look good. You know what, I can now understand why you defend Kobe. The end. I'm done with this argument.


-Chris.
_*grins* amusing, i have almost as much rep as him, and only 100+ posts_


----------



## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Bogut spelled backwards is 'Tugob'


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



DHarris34Phan said:


> This thread should be locked now, because absolutley nothing constructive will come out of it.


Bogut sucks.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



ChrisWoj said:


> *scratches head*
> He was NOT being a corporate image-whore like a certain numero ocho de Los Angelos. That's right, I said it, I did bash Kobe. He's a spectacular player: But he is an image whore. Which annoys me. Yes, it annoys me. There isn't much of anything wrong with it, but the man simply does whatever he can to make sure he looks good. He needed to eliminate Shaq from his team because, with Shaq, he couldn't look like the next Jordan (his idol, whom he has SAID he wants to emulate to the closest point possible, including becoming the greatest ever).


Because, as we all know, the very last thing a star shooting guard wants to do is strive to be as good, or better than, the best shooting guard ever.

Also, if you have the talent to possibly become the GOAT, you should make every effort *not* to go forth with it.

Kobe wants to maximize his potential. Who are any of us to tell him what he should do? We're not in his head. The man won three rings deferring to Shaq, and nearly went for five despite Shaq's increasingly lazy attitude towards staying in shape. That's good enough, time for a new role. Isn't it obvious a guy with Kobe's mindset, who wants to be better than Michael Jordan, doesn't want to be Scottie Pippen (disclaimer: Pip is one of the greatest ever, but a sidekick nevertheless)?

Kobe also didn't like Phil Jackson and Shaq. For good reason. Phil's admitted to wanting to have Kobe traded back in 1998 or so, and Shaq has said that something about Kobe always rubbed him the wrong way. I would gather to say that Kobe was never exactly made to feel like part of the family. If that were me, I'd want a new family too.


----------



## adarsh1 (May 28, 2003)

kobe spelled backward is 'ebok'


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



ChrisWoj said:


> It is called a reporter. You see, kflo, when the reporter asks a new question, the topic changes. When the reporter changes the subject, the athlete typically flows with that, rather than listening to the new question and then continuing on with the same subject as before.
> 
> Comprende?


they were talking about usa basketball, and why they didn't do well in the olympics. the reporter follows up with specifics about the american game - the question wasn't a new topic, it was an extention of the conversation they were already having on usa basketball. he brings up a name of any of the 12 guys who actually played on the olympic team, which again, was the topic he had just exhausted, and it at least fits - doesn't mean he'd be justified in criticizing someone based on things he doesn't know much about, but at least it would have fit a bit more. 

shaq / kobe was basically a non-sequitor. you think the reporter had anything in mind other than to continue getting bogut to yap about the problems with usa basketball?

doesn't it seem a bit bizarre that there's still this attitude that kobe should have simply deferred to whatever shaq wanted, particularly in the context of wade's role, and the success they've had in mia?


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



Spriggan said:


> Because, as we all know, the very last thing a star shooting guard wants to do is strive to be as good, or better than, the best shooting guard ever.
> 
> Also, if you have the talent to possibly become the GOAT, you should make every effort *not* to go forth with it.
> 
> ...


So the goal of NBA players should be to be the best individual player they can and not to maximize team success? 

Bill Walton is turning in his grave.


----------



## adarsh1 (May 28, 2003)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*

Bill Walton isn't dead yet


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*

Everytime I think of Kobe vs Bucks I get this mental picture...










And when I think of Kobe vs the #1 overall pick?


----------



## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



Jamel Irief said:


> So the goal of NBA players should be to be the best individual player they can and not to maximize team success?
> 
> Bill Walton is turning in his grave.



you know what though, anyone who plays ball wants to win of course, but the goal also is to be the best individual player you can be. nobody remembers scrubs who were good team players, they remember the superstars. think about it, one leads to another most of the time. being a great player is both maximizing your individual skills and helping your team win games. ive never seen a team win a championship with a bunch of role players.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



Jamel Irief said:


> So the goal of NBA players should be to be the best individual player they can and not to maximize team success?


It's both, isn't it? Not everyone has the Scottie Pippen mentality. Not every superstar guard is okay with being #2 for so long. Kobe did that with Shaq for eight years. Eight years. And won three titles in a row, which could have easily been five. That's enough. The Lakers' breakup was inevitable, anyway.

I love how you say "should be to be the best individual player" like it's amazing I brought that up. These people are in the NBA with millions of people watching. Their life is basically basketball. They live and breathe it. They've probably been playing since they were little children. And you're miffed when a talent like Kobe wants to show the world what he can do alone? You think these people don't care about how they look individually? I bet some of the unlikeliest NBA players are stat-heads.

What Kobe is doing is interesting, actually. Most star guards (Iverson, Pierce, Carter post-McGrady, McGrady post-Raptors, etc) start their careers off on poor teams which they have to carry, and it isn't until later in their careers that they finally get that #2 they've needed (or *they* become the #2). Kobe started off his career with one of the great big men of all time. He won three titles in 8 years with him. And now, he's the one carrying the team by himself after having *already found team success*. Three titles in a row may not be literally "maximizing team success", but how many times has it been done? And I would personally say, while still a huge fan, that Shaq's lazy work ethic is a bigger reason the Lakers were never able to "maximize team success" than Kobe. Anyway, what Kobe is doing is far better than a star guard going solo for 85% of his career, proving that he's a great individual player, but who also isn't likely to ever win a ring.

Kobe doesn't have to worry about that, having already won three. Now he can do what he's always wanted to do: prove to everyone that *he* can carry a team to the promised land, which ultimately involves caring a great deal about both of the things you mentioned: team success and individual play.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



Debt Collector said:


> you know what though, anyone who plays ball wants to win of course, but the goal also is to be the best individual player you can be. nobody remembers scrubs who were good team players, they remember the superstars. think about it, one leads to another most of the time. being a great player is both maximizing your individual skills and helping your team win games. ive never seen a team win a championship with a bunch of role players.


No one remembers Dennis Rodman?
No one remembers Steve Kerr?
I wonder if anyone remembers Byron Scott?
What about Danny Ainge?


People tend to remember champions. Maybe they don't remember Jud Bucheler, but they remember the important role players.


----------



## djtoneblaze (Nov 22, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*

LOL @ Andrew Bogut feeling he has the authority to talk trash about Kobe.

Dude will be lucky if he's even relevant five years from now.


----------



## underhill_101 (Feb 22, 2005)

those are pretty strong words for a guy who hasnt even been drafted... does anyone know what kobe said in response to this?


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Damn! Asterixsen (sp?) keeps moving up on PauloCatarino's ranking of hate.
37 posts in this thread already! That's like 11.2% of total posts.

Great job! :biggrin:


----------



## hirschmanz (Jun 3, 2005)

underhill_101 said:


> those are pretty strong words for a guy who hasnt even been drafted... does anyone know what kobe said in response to this?


Does anyone know if kobe cares, other than to dunk on Bogut?

Even so, I love the guy. I hope he mixes it up for years to come.


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> This thread is epic. It's been everywhere. Literally, what else is left that hasn't been discussed in this thread? Shatner, Kobe, Bogut, Pippen, Jordan...just all over the place. Lebron made an appearence. The Argentine national team. And that's just the stuff I had a part in.


 Hell I even brought up Australian cricketers and other superstars !


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

That was some duel though Minstrel, Jamel....


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> Damn! Asterixsen (sp?) keeps moving up on PauloCatarino's ranking of hate.
> 37 posts in this thread already! That's like 11.2% of total posts.
> 
> Great job! :biggrin:


'll send you a love letter! Straight from my heart, ****er! You know what a love letter is? It's a bullet from a ****ing gun, ****er! You recieve a love letter from me, you're ****ed forever! You understand, ****? I'll send you straight to hell, ****er!


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> 'll send you a love letter! Straight from my heart, ****er! You know what a love letter is? It's a bullet from a ****ing gun, ****er! You recieve a love letter from me, you're ****ed forever! You understand, ****? I'll send you straight to hell, ****er!


Temper, temper! 



:nah:


----------



## BallStateCards (Oct 14, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> 'll send you a love letter! Straight from my heart, ****er! You know what a love letter is? It's a bullet from a ****ing gun, ****er! You recieve a love letter from me, you're ****ed forever! You understand, ****? I'll send you straight to hell, ****er!


Dude, you got problems. If this is your response to little bit of verbal jab, you have more important things to deal with before basketball...


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> Temper, temper!
> 
> 
> 
> :nah:



:makeout: 

:biggrin: 

ClayVTrainum, I do have problems, but this ***** ain't one. Watch more movies, mofo.

Paulo and I have a complex relationship, which I can forgive you for not understanding. There's nothing but love and quasi-hate here.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

ClayVTrainum said:


> Dude, you got problems. If this is your response to little bit of verbal jab, you have more important things to deal with before basketball...


Come on, Clay... Lighten up... That was future's personal way of saying "i love you"... He's such a b****!... :biggrin:



EDIT: Hey, just kidding, folks.


----------



## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



djtoneblaze said:


> LOL @ Andrew Bogut feeling he has the authority to talk trash about Kobe.
> 
> Dude will be lucky if he's even relevant five years from now.


dude would be lucky to be famous enough to have the whole media around him 5 years from now, let alone have his name mentioned in sports headlines by that span.


----------



## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



trick said:


> dude would be lucky to be famous enough to have the whole media around him 5 years from now, let alone have his name mentioned in sports headlines by that span.


I think he could care less about the whole media being around him, or headlines.....Kobe does :banana:


----------



## BallStateCards (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> I think he could care less about the whole media being around him, or headlines.....Kobe does :banana:


Uh-huh, look at all the personal interviews with him...oh wait.

You know why Kobe is considered an enigma? He refuses to open up to the media. So your point doesn't exactly make a lot of sense...


----------



## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



ClayVTrainum said:


> Uh-huh, look at all the personal interviews with him...oh wait.
> 
> You know why Kobe is considered an enigma? He refuses to open up to the media. So your point doesn't exactly make a lot of sense...


It isn't about personal interviews. It is about the whole media circus that surrounds the Lakers. Kobe and his antics kept the Lakers in the media more than any other Lottery team in the history of the NBA.


----------



## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



Spriggan said:


> Because, as we all know, the very last thing a star shooting guard wants to do is strive to be as good, or better than, the best shooting guard ever.
> 
> Also, if you have the talent to possibly become the GOAT, you should make every effort *not* to go forth with it.
> 
> Kobe wants to maximize his potential. Who are any of us to tell him what he should do? We're not in his head. The man won three rings deferring to Shaq, and nearly went for five despite Shaq's increasingly lazy attitude towards staying in shape. That's good enough, time for a new role. Isn't it obvious a guy with Kobe's mindset, who wants to be better than Michael Jordan, doesn't want to be Scottie Pippen (disclaimer: Pip is one of the greatest ever, but a sidekick nevertheless)?


I'm not just talking about on the court. I'm talking about overall, and guess what... I SAID IT WASN'T NECESSARILY WRONG. He is attempting to model his life after Jordan's, to become a corporate icon, to basically become everything Jordan was INSTEAD of becoming his own player with his OWN image.

I SAID I DIDN'T LIKE IT.
BUT I ALSO SAID THERE WAS NOT ANYTHING NECESSARILY WRONG WITH IT.

Go back and read it over, don't twist my words to fit your agenda.



Spriggan said:


> Kobe also didn't like Phil Jackson and Shaq. For good reason. Phil's admitted to wanting to have Kobe traded back in 1998 or so, and Shaq has said that something about Kobe always rubbed him the wrong way. I would gather to say that Kobe was never exactly made to feel like part of the family. If that were me, I'd want a new family too.


And I feel the same way as Shaq does, something about him rubs me the wrong way. Is that so wrong? It is a natural gut feeling, it isn't me telling you to hate him.


-Chris.


----------



## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



kflo said:


> they were talking about usa basketball, and why they didn't do well in the olympics. the reporter follows up with specifics about the american game - the question wasn't a new topic, it was an extention of the conversation they were already having on usa basketball. he brings up a name of any of the 12 guys who actually played on the olympic team, which again, was the topic he had just exhausted, and it at least fits - doesn't mean he'd be justified in criticizing someone based on things he doesn't know much about, but at least it would have fit a bit more.
> 
> shaq / kobe was basically a non-sequitor. you think the reporter had anything in mind other than to continue getting bogut to yap about the problems with usa basketball?
> 
> doesn't it seem a bit bizarre that there's still this attitude that kobe should have simply deferred to whatever shaq wanted, particularly in the context of wade's role, and the success they've had in mia?


You know, when you put it that way, in that context (nobody really has yet) I can begin to see your side of the argument. Alright, point conceded. Bogut did bring up something he didn't need to. He wanted to talk about Kobe, and threw it in there because he was angry at the fellow.

I can see where that is running his mouth, but before I 100% concede I would love to have an actual interview transcript... I think we're just reading it differently. I thought one question was on USA Basketball, and another on the NBA/American style of Basketball... two different topics.


-Chris.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> It isn't about personal interviews. It is about the whole media circus that surrounds the Lakers. Kobe and his antics kept the Lakers in the media more than any other Lottery team in the history of the NBA.


That's because the Lakers being in the Lottery IS news... Unlike a certain team like.. uh... the Bucks. :biggrin:


----------



## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



Spriggan said:


> And I would personally say, while still a huge fan, that Shaq's lazy work ethic is a bigger reason the Lakers were never able to "maximize team success" than Kobe. Anyway, what Kobe is doing is far better than a star guard going solo for 85% of his career, proving that he's a great individual player, but who also isn't likely to ever win a ring.


The same Shaq that came into Los Angelos and promptly hit the weight room and quit running because he was told to? It has been said by Shaq and many around him that the VIPs of the Lakers Organization wanted him to put on more mass, to get bigger and stronger, completely disregarding running because it could thin him out... they wanted THE BIGGEST.

I noticed how the instant he was traded he went back to the exact training style he had for his years in Orlando. A running workout, more cardio... and this year he has shown increased productivity over the past few. I can't imagine what kind of shape his legs would be in if he had done that for the past eight/nine years... he'd probably still be every bit as dominant as he was for his first couple of championship runs.

I can buy that he got a little lazy at the end, injuries tear away at willpower at times, especially leg injuries (as a runner, I know a lot about the mental issues that go with leg injuries). But I can't buy that it was 100% his own fault.


-Chris.


----------



## hirschmanz (Jun 3, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



PauloCatarino said:


> That's because the Lakers being in the Lottery IS news... Unlike a certain team like.. uh... the Bucks. :biggrin:


The reason, not the fact, is the news.
And what is the reason the Lakers aren't in the playoffs?

Who should take the blame?
Thats a rhetorical question.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



hirschmanz said:


> The reason, not the fact, is the news.
> And what is the reason the Lakers aren't in the playoffs?
> 
> Who should take the blame?
> Thats a rhetorical question.


Sorry, young grasshopper, but you stand incorrected... The *fact *IS news...


----------



## hirschmanz (Jun 3, 2005)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



PauloCatarino said:


> Sorry, young grasshopper, but you stand incorrected... The *fact *IS news...


your right, i was just deflecting from the bucks being in the lottery no one being surprised :sigh:


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



hirschmanz said:


> your right, i was just deflecting from the bucks being in the lottery no one being surprised :sigh:


 :greatjob:


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> Null and void, huh? So he didn't break up a team that could have continued to compete for a championship for another 5 years? And Bird and McHale and Moses and Dr. J and Kareem and Magic did the same as him as well, I suppose? You're right, he only pouted and whined the whole way to the last two championships and the two seasons they didn't win. And then broke up the team. He REALLY puts winning first. :whatever:


you act like kobe was the only one who had problems. this was a back and forth, not a one way street. 

and people have it wrong. it wasn't egos that did them in - it was insecurities. from both of them. shaq gets a free pass simply because people viewed him as the more important piece. not because of his behavior. if they both gave more respect to each other, they'd probably still be together. and shaq's contract issue, and the way he treated buss didn't help.


----------



## Cammo (May 24, 2005)

As i contribute a reply to PAGE 26 of the biggest non-event in NBA history i would like to point out a few things:

- Someone asked why Kobe hasnt replied. Do you honestly think that Kobe could give a flying crap about Bogut saying that he is "cocky"? That pretty much is all what Bogut said about Kobe Bryant personally, the rest is just about his respect for the greats. And if Kobe did reply, what would he say? "No Im not cocky! What you on about playa!? How dare he!". Ever thought that the article is such a big non-issue that Kobe probably doesnt know what was said? Yet here we are, 26 pages later (25% of posts being the oh so predictable "Kobe nuts in face" posts).

- The most amusing thing for me is in fact the "nuts in face" posts. Therein lies exactly what Bogut was talking about and proves his point further. Kids these days are way too busy worrying about dunking on someones gril rather than winning the goddam game! Basketball is a team game which has been won in the past by teams of players, not players in teams, Detroits and Argentina's success is reflective of that. This is what Bogut thinks is the problem with the American game and to say that he is wrong would just be plain ignorant. Too many players are worried about themselves and not about the team.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Cammo said:


> As i contribute a reply to PAGE 26 of the biggest non-event in NBA history i would like to point out a few things:


It's only on page 8 for me.

I don't understand why you would go with 15 views per page if you have DSL, cable or satellite.


----------



## Cammo (May 24, 2005)

> It's only on page 8 for me.
> 
> I don't understand why you would go with 15 views per page if you have DSL, cable or satellite.


Apologies to you then if some of us are still on dial-up, we cant all be perfect i guess.


----------



## BallStateCards (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> It isn't about personal interviews. It is about the whole media circus that surrounds the Lakers. Kobe and his antics kept the Lakers in the media more than any other Lottery team in the history of the NBA.


Kobe and his antics? What, in the past six months has Kobe said or done that can be characterized as antics? The fact that a bad team didn't make the playoffs? That's it. Kobe hasn't done anything at all to gain all of this recent media attention. In fact, the only people that are talking about the Lakers at the moment aren't actually on the payroll of the Lakers. So, who is to blame for the attention? Shaq? Bogut? ESPN? Blind hypocrites on BBB.net?


----------



## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



ClayVTrainum said:


> Kobe and his antics? What, in the past six months has Kobe said or done that can be characterized as antics? The fact that a bad team didn't make the playoffs? That's it. Kobe hasn't done anything at all to gain all of this recent media attention. In fact, the only people that are talking about the Lakers at the moment aren't actually on the payroll of the Lakers. So, who is to blame for the attention? Shaq? Bogut? ESPN? Blind hypocrites on BBB.net?


The Karl Malone Incident was pretty unnecessary if you ask me. It was way overblown by ESPN, but Kobe fueled it by bringing it to the media in the 1st place. I am sure that **** was a pretty big distraction for the rest of the team. Also, seeing guys like Chucky Atkins come out and address him as "GM Kobe" is probably a result because of his antics.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> It's only on page 8 for me.
> 
> I don't understand why you would go with 15 views per page if you have DSL, cable or satellite.



26>8

Fancy man. :biggrin:


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> The Karl Malone Incident was pretty unnecessary if you ask me. It was way overblown by ESPN, but Kobe fueled it by bringing it to the media in the 1st place. I am sure that **** was a pretty big distraction for the rest of the team. Also, seeing guys like Chucky Atkins come out and address him as "GM Kobe" is probably a result because of his antics.


Actually Malone brought it up first, publicly.


----------



## BallStateCards (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



DHarris34Phan said:


> The Karl Malone Incident was pretty unnecessary if you ask me. It was way overblown by ESPN, but Kobe fueled it by bringing it to the media in the 1st place. I am sure that **** was a pretty big distraction for the rest of the team. Also, seeing guys like Chucky Atkins come out and address him as "GM Kobe" is probably a result because of his antics.


That doesn't even make sense. Your whole argument has been that Kobe likes to see his name in the papers, but those two examples don't even add to something he wants seen in a paper. And blaming Kobe for Malone hitting on Kobe's wife is probably the most ridiculous thing I've heard.


----------



## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



HKF said:


> This could be the stupidest thing you ever wrote. If your wife is intensive care, you might not be thinking to call. Don't be silly.


Wow! Cause I've written some pretty stupid things... :clown: 

So, Kobe doesn't like have any peeps? No agent? 

<Speed Dial #2> "Cancel all my meetings for the next two days!"

Boy, that sure is tough. :whoknows:


----------



## Volcom (Mar 28, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



Max Payne said:


> Australians in general are pretty damn athletic...their rugby teams own and their cricket team is the absolute king...yet there's something more than just the ability...it's the Australian mean streak. Futuristxen hit it on the head by proclaiming that Bogut wasn't a "nancy boy" center. From watching Australian cricket and rugby teams for some time now, it's apparent that as far as sports go, they are competitive to the point of being amongst the baddest mother f**kers to ever hit a court, a pitch or a field. Bogut might smile a lot but he looks like he has a real fiery, almost sadistic side to him.
> 
> The first time I saw him, I immediately looked for that famed Australian rage, and I saw it in almost everything he did on the court.
> 
> This guy is a bad bad man. I won't go out on a limb and throw out stats but I have a feeling he's going to be something in this league. *A lot of you guys just don't know how ferocious Aussies can be.* Don't let the color of someone's skin fool you, because I know that if Bogut was black, the vast majority of you haters would be drooling over him.


:laugh: That's right. We are some bad *** mother****ers!


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



The Mad Viking said:


> Wow! Cause I've written some pretty stupid things... :clown:
> 
> So, Kobe doesn't like have any peeps? No agent?
> 
> ...



Kobe has no peeps. That's part of his problem. He's a loner. No one knows where he is or what he's up to. He's a mystery even to himself.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: your predictions on kobe and bogut*



ChrisWoj said:


> The same Shaq that came into Los Angelos and promptly hit the weight room and quit running because he was told to? It has been said by Shaq and many around him that the VIPs of the Lakers Organization wanted him to put on more mass, to get bigger and stronger, completely disregarding running because it could thin him out... they wanted THE BIGGEST.
> 
> I noticed how the instant he was traded he went back to the exact training style he had for his years in Orlando. A running workout, more cardio... and this year he has shown increased productivity over the past few. I can't imagine what kind of shape his legs would be in if he had done that for the past eight/nine years... he'd probably still be every bit as dominant as he was for his first couple of championship runs.
> 
> ...


Phil Jackson and Jerry West are such enablers.


----------



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



futuristxen said:


> Kobe has no peeps. That's part of his problem. He's a loner. No one knows where he is or what he's up to. He's a mystery even to himself.


i think he's getting better with that...this year watching him speak, it seemed like he felt a lot more comfortable with himself, not even talking basketball here, i think life is a growing process and kobe has had to learn quite a few things in this past year, about himself and about others. socially he will never be shaq, but that is not a fault. i believe people have a problem with him not talking because they want to hear his real opinions on issues, talking real with them so to speak. but really what is wrong with being a loner? when the chips are down his family was there (he wouldn't have made it mentally if they weren't), and vanessa didn't take the money and run (surprisingly). friends are good to have but they don't make or break a man, but regardless i do think he has some comrades to lean on.

personally, i see him as more along the lines of a guy with a regal yet debonair tone about him. more focused and to the point in terms of speech, but willing to break the mold here and there. this guy is smart, he knows when to speak and when not to (barring police interviews). but really who knows, just trying to break down what i see on television. i also notice guys like lamar and caron have no problem with his leadership skills though. and also, a question; what is that in your avatar?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Bogut on Kobe*



sherako said:


> and also, a question; what is that in your avatar?


Spider Jerusalem.
Of Transmetropolitan fame. Check it out. Hunter S. Thompson type.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)




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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Nice photoshop. A Bucks jersey would have been a nice touch.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

DHarris34Phan said:


>


LOL!!! That is Awesome!!!! You should make that into an avatar. I would totally use it.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The picture is of Kobe shooting and Bogut dunking in a college uniform. It looks stupid.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

:rofl: HKF....

I didn't notice that it was a pic of Kobe shooting until I saw your post and looked at his hands. Oh god that's hilarious.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

HKF said:


> The picture is of Kobe shooting and Bogut dunking in a college uniform. It looks stupid.


I didn't make it...I don't know how to use photoshop, I just thought it was kinda funny...this thread deserved to be bumped too :biggrin:


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

+







+







=

Kobe's three championship trophies!

When Bogy gets *one* of these then you can post something like this!


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

ralaw said:


> +
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bogy has gotten 3 points in a game before.

I love this thread. Bunch of wild stuff said about Bogut in here that Bogut hasn't backed up.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

+







+
















= 

Shaq's 4 championship trophies! 

Wasn't this the whole point of Bogut's argument, since Kobe already had 3 of these when Bogut made this statement? If Shaq and Kobe had stayed together, they could have made a few more runs for the title. 

Anyways, Bogut is neither a bust (aka Kwame Brown) or a stud (aka Dwight Howard), he's not soft and he's a good role player. Kobe and the Lakers are playing solid ball right now. The Lakers have Odom and Brown, whom they traded Caron Butler for, to show for Shaq.


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

Lots of people talk smack i remember just last year Dampier was saying he is the best centre in the west...........

It makes it interesting.
Plus an aussie dude done good its great to see.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

f22egl said:


> Anyways, Bogut is neither a bust (aka Kwame Brown) or a stud (aka Dwight Howard), he's not soft and he's a good role player. Kobe and the Lakers are playing solid ball right now. The Lakers have Odom and Brown, whom they traded Caron Butler for, to show for Shaq.


Keep telling yourself that. #1 picks aren't used on "good role players."


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## TiMVP2 (Jun 19, 2003)

Boguts a pimp for spreadin tha truth


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> Keep telling yourself that. #1 picks aren't used on "good role players."


Bogut is not really a number 1 pick, it was just was not a very strong draft for big men. Bogut would probably find himself at the end of the lottery in next year's draft. Anywyas, Bogut has the right to say what he wants just as all of the posters here do.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

f22egl said:


> Bogut is not really a number 1 pick, it was just was not a very strong draft for big men. Bogut would probably find himself at the end of the lottery in next year's draft. Anywyas, Bogut has the right to say what he wants just as all of the posters here do.


We are fans, aka the customers. We have a right to be vocal. Bogut should shut up until his game backs it up, but to his credit, he realizes he's no star so he has shut up.


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

Why does everyone keep saying Bogut has the right to say what he wants just like us. The difference is like Bill Clinton having sex in white house and us having sex in our office.


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

Does that mean that Bogut will even give blow job to Shaq and Timmy.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

f22egl said:


> Bogut is not really a number 1 pick, it was just was not a very strong draft for big men. Bogut would probably find himself at the end of the lottery in next year's draft. Anywyas, Bogut has the right to say what he wants just as all of the posters here do.


But he was a number 1 pick. He spoke too soon, so now he has to get it together.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

If Kwame Brown is a bust. I'm not sure what you would call Bogut. (who I like as a player by the way) However in saying that I'm of the opinion that Kwame Brown is better then Bogut.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

f22egl said:


> Bogut is not really a number 1 pick, it was just was not a very strong draft for big men. Bogut would probably find himself at the end of the lottery in next year's draft. Anywyas, Bogut has the right to say what he wants just as all of the posters here do.


Let's not get carried away. He was still the Wooden Award Winner as a sophomore.

Marvin Williams has looked good since coming back from injury


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> Keep telling yourself that. #1 picks aren't used on "good role players."


Do you even watch Bucks games? In the right offense, Bogut would be a stud.

In fact, in his last 10 games, Bogut is averaging

13.8 ppg, 9.4 rpg, 3.4 apg on 62% FG shooting. Plus, in this 10 game span, his highest FG output was 14. If Stotts consistently gave him 10-14 shots a game, he would easily be averaging 16-10, with about 4 assists.

If thats your definition of a role player, than you have pretty high standards. To me, that's an All Star Center.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

AJ Prus said:


> Do you even watch Bucks games? In the right offense, Bogut would be a stud.
> 
> In fact, in his last 10 games, Bogut is averaging
> 
> ...


I was responding to the guy that called Bogut a role player. Stotts doesn't play on the court, Bogut doesn't shoot because he doesn't want to. You think Stotts has a problem with someone stepping up and taking more shots so that Redd doesn't have to pull crap out of his ***?

Aren't you the guy that said you would rather build your team around Bogut than Kobe? The real question is if Bogut will be better than Longely.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

> Stotts doesn't play on the court, Bogut doesn't shoot because he doesn't want to.


Watch a Bucks game, and then come back to me. Our offense is guard oriented, and rarely goes to the post. In our last game vs. Cleveland, Redd, Williams and Bell combined to shoot 47 times. Bogut shot 5 times (and made all 5).



> You think Stotts has a problem with someone stepping up and taking more shots so that Redd doesn't have to pull crap out of his ***?


It seems that way. Redd has free reign to take any shots he wants. Same goes for Williams and Bell.



> Aren't you the guy that said you would rather build your team around Bogut than Kobe? The real question is if Bogut will be better than Longely.


I would love to start my franchise with Bogut. It would be right on par with a team starting with Dwight Howard. Howard is a better rebounder, though.

And yes, Bogut is already better than Luc Longley.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

I have nothing to say. Wow.

Hopefully Bogut gets you to the playoffs in the weak conference. Considering he is great but yet there are still 3 players on his team better than him.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> I have nothing to say. Wow.


Is it the Dwight Howard comment? Well, put Bogut on the Magic (or a system that makes him the #1 option), and I can easily see Bogut putting up 17-10, with 4 assists.

As much as I love Michael Redd, he has been killing us the past few games, while Bogut has been dominating.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Do many people still feel this way about Kobe? I think even futuristxen has had a change of heart over the past year or so. Kobe doesn't seem to have nearly as many haters as he used to (did I really hear Kings fans giving him an MVP chant recently?). The hate started subsiding last year, around the time Kobe dropped 81 on the Raptors. After that, most of his haters were like "okay, so maybe some respect is due". Now it seems to have reached the point where Kobe's actually more liked than he is hated.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

I agree with you in that I think a lot of people _have_ changed their minds about Kobe. It almost seemed like it was the cool thing to hate Kobe, but now people are starting to like him again, and I'm glad it's happening.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

23AJ said:


> If Kwame Brown is a bust. I'm not sure what you would call Bogut. (who I like as a player by the way) However in saying that I'm of the opinion that Kwame Brown is better then Bogut.


Bogut is a much better player than Brown. He's a better passer, better rebounder, better finisher at the basket, and a good help defender. Kwame Brown may be a better post defender when his head is in the game, but that's it.


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## PoorPoorSonics (Mar 20, 2004)

I still don't like him.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I don't like Kobe, but I don't hate him, and there are situations, such as last year against the FauxVP Steve Nash in the first round. Man I wish he had won that series.


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## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

ho hum, this old mess. again. hate to love him, or love to hate him, the nba would be much, much less exciting w/o #24. who else could garner so much ire from armchair coaches and laptop "daily dime" poseuers. keep up the good work fellas!


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## bigdbucks (Jun 7, 2002)

I'm on par with the argument that if Bogut were in a system that believed in a post game that he would score more. Coming into the season i was hoping for 15 and 9. He's only in his second year and he's playing with a bunch a shooters. NOBODY on this team is pass first.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I like the way he plays now, more team oriented. *Waits for someone to say, but he did that last year*


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

For the meantime Bogut and company are struggling in the east, while the Lakers are on top of their conference.


Nuff said.


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## Fray (Dec 19, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> I don't like Kobe, but I don't hate him, and there are situations, such as last year against the FauxVP Steve Nash in the first round. Man I wish he had won that series.


ditto


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

AJ Prus said:


> Is it the Dwight Howard comment? Well, put Bogut on the Magic (or a system that makes him the #1 option), and I can easily see Bogut putting up 17-10, with 4 assists.
> 
> As much as I love Michael Redd, he has been killing us the past few games, while Bogut has been dominating.


All if it. Michael Redd, Maurice Williams, Charlie Villaneuva, Charlie Bell and Ruben Patterson are better than Grant Hill, Jamer Nelson, Darko Millic, Hedo Turkoglu and Trevor Ariza.

Put Bogy on the Lakers and they are a lottery team. Yet you would rather build a team around Bogy than Kobe.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

You are such a homer Jamel.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

3-15 :|


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Bogut and Brown are like a poor-man's Zach Randolph pretty much. and its debatable but i'd probly take kobe over randolph for a franchise player. 
Z-Bo's more consistent, dominant (arguably) and being a big man is easier to build around.
Kobe is more athletic, better ball skillz, and probly a better scorer.

Probly kobe but depends on what kind of team ur building.


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

NewAgeBaller said:


> Bogut and Brown are like a poor-man's Zach Randolph pretty much. and its debatable but i'd probly take kobe over randolph for a franchise player.
> Z-Bo's more consistent, dominant (arguably) and being a big man is easier to build around.
> Kobe is more athletic, better ball skillz, and probly a better scorer.
> 
> Probly kobe but depends on what kind of team ur building.



dude your getting awfully tiresome with your non stop blazers jabber

theres a blazers forum,go have fun


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

www.starbury.com said:


> dude your getting awfully tiresome with your non stop blazers jabber
> 
> theres a blazers forum,go have fun


is that a problem? im on topic arnt i? and furthering a good discussion?

and just for the record, im at ends wit a couple of the guys in the blazers forum so i try to stay out of it as much as possible.


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

EDIT- Don't tell other posters what and where to post please


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

So far, it's Shaq 1 Kobe 0 since the break up. The Heat may be a mess this year, but Shaq did bring a championship to the city just like he promised. Meanwhile, unless Kobe can bring another championship to LA, the statement "Kobe made the Lakers a worse team by not being able to co-exist with Shaq" will stand until he retire or goes to another team.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

NewAgeBaller said:


> Bogut and Brown are like a poor-man's Zach Randolph pretty much. and its debatable but i'd probly take kobe over randolph for a franchise player.
> Z-Bo's more consistent, dominant (arguably) and being a big man is easier to build around.
> Kobe is more athletic, better ball skillz, and probly a better scorer.
> 
> Probly kobe but depends on what kind of team ur building.


lol


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## lw32 (May 24, 2003)

NewAgeBaller said:


> Bogut and Brown are like a poor-man's Zach Randolph pretty much. and its debatable but i'd probly take kobe over randolph for a franchise player.
> Z-Bo's more consistent, dominant (arguably) and being a big man is easier to build around.
> Kobe is more athletic, better ball skillz, and probly a better scorer.
> 
> Probly kobe but depends on what kind of team ur building.


Ok. A slight case of homerism. I could be wrong, but claiming that Randolph and Kobe are debateably close as franchise players is ludicrous. I don't think anyone can take the argument seriously.

Try comparing Randolph and Bryant as franchise players without your foggy glasses on. Step out of the Trailblazers homer mode and put yourself in a third parties shoes.




NewAgeBaller said:


> and just for the record, im at ends wit a couple of the guys in the blazers forum so i try to stay out of it as much as possible.


This might come out of left field for you, but perhaps you're at ends with some blazer fans because of your extremely positive spin on Randolph? As shown in your previous post. I know if you were a fan of my team, and you had your head that high in the clouds I'd be a little angry too.


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