# iverson/billups rumor



## pac4eva5

http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm

assuming detroit is interested in rebuilding, think this would hold water close to the deadline?

den in: billups, snow
den out: iverson, carter

det in: iverson
det out: billups, dice

cle in: dice, carter
cle out: snow

id throw picks at either team too...


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## darth-horax

From the Boston Globe:

NBA sources said the Nuggets have inquired about obtaining Denver native Chauncey Billups from the Pistons for Allen Iverson. Because of Iverson’s lucrative contract ($20.8 million) it would take more than Billups ($11 million), though.

I would love to get DIce and Billups back here. We need help at both positions, and the salaries would match. 

So we trade AI for Billups and Dice (maybe AC, too) and sign Marbury? Not bad...but I'm not sure about Marbury.


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## Your Answer

Pistons to trade Billups, McDyess for Nuggets' Iverson
by A. Sherrod Blakely 
Monday November 03, 2008, 11:09 AM
Ed. Note: MLive Pistons Insider A. Sherrod Blakely is away from his computer, but called in this breaking news:

The Detroit Pistons have reached a tentative agreement to trade Chauncey Billups and Antonio McDyess to the Denver Nuggets for Allen Iverson. Neither player was at this morning's shoot-around. Team officials said that more information would be forthcoming later today.

From Det News

Apparently its done, but i dont see it on ESPN or anything national yet so we will see.


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## nbanoitall

Oh Hell yes!. Dice and Billups for AI. Did the front office just make a smart trade? Holy ****.


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## nbanoitall

Now we've got Steven Hunter and Chucky Atkins we can still move. Get in touch with Sac, OKC, etc and lets make another deal.


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## Sliccat

nbanoitall said:


> Oh Hell yes!. Dice and Billups for AI. Did the front office just make a smart trade? Holy ****.


That's what I'm saying. This is a brilliant move by Denver. Billups, JR, and Melo will be an incredible fit, it makes more space for Kleiza off the bench, make Carter much more valuable, and gives them the back-up center they've needed since dealing Camby.

Plus, they've still got that $10 million exception.

Mark my words, Denver is now a top-five team in the west.

I'd be pissed if I was a Detroit fan, though.


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## Sliccat

Steven A said that McDyess would not be expected to stay in Denver. If so, that blows a very underrated component to the trade.


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## nbanoitall

Sliccat said:


> Steven A said that McDyess would not be expected to stay in Denver. If so, that blows a very underrated component to the trade.


don't know what to think yet. What is coming to denver if Dice isn't staying.
Other than that... Sliccat... it appears you are now a Detroit fan.


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## Sliccat

nbanoitall said:


> don't know what to think yet. What is coming to denver if Dice isn't staying.
> Other than that... Sliccat... it appears you are now a Detroit fan.


Yes, but the billups trade is going to make denver the so much better... I might stick around.

I really can't believe how good of a trade this is for Denver.


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## layup_renegade

I know this is more of an emotional reaction than a smart one, but I really like having AI here. Him and Melo have done great things for our fan base. 

On the other hand, if we were to have a team that was actually a solid contender for and in the playoffs...


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## Kuskid

We need to keep McDyess. He's exactly the player we need. Reliable, experienced big man who is going to do what's needed of him in whatever minutes he's needed for. Can't stress it enough- we need to keep McDyess. I'm cautiously excited about this trade overall. It definitely makes us better this year.


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## Sliccat

Kuskid said:


> We need to keep McDyess. He's exactly the player we need. Reliable, experienced big man who is going to do what's needed of him in whatever minutes he's needed for. Can't stress it enough- we need to keep McDyess. I'm cautiously excited about this trade overall. It definitely makes us better this year.


I completely agree.


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## Your Answer

Sliccat said:


> I completely agree.


Ok so what I wanna know is what is your reaction as an Iverson fan. I saw you say Great for Denver, would be pissed if you were a Detroit fan, but how do you feel as an AI fan. 

Personally I think the team is the style AI needs to be on, hes going to play Point obviously with RIP there. Good Defensive team. The thing that scares me is how much losing Mcdyess will hurt them, he seemed to be a pretty big part of that team. Overall Im happy, I do like Denver and would of liked to see them be able to win together here but it wasnt working and Denver count seem to make a deal to get a PG to play with AI so I guess its best that they part. But ill still root for Denver to win in the West.

So whatcha you think of the deal for Allen Slic?


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## HB

If you dont keep Dice, Denver really isn't that good. I like Sliccat's optimism, but I dont see it. Injury prone bigs, shoddy defense, though Billups will greatly help perimeter D and finally playing in the most talented conference in the NBA also counts for something.


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## Sliccat

Melo's Answer said:


> Ok so what I wanna know is what is your reaction as an Iverson fan. I saw you say Great for Denver, would be pissed if you were a Detroit fan, but how do you feel as an AI fan.
> 
> Personally I think the team is the style AI needs to be on, hes going to play Point obviously with RIP there. Good Defensive team. The thing that scares me is how much losing Mcdyess will hurt them, he seemed to be a pretty big part of that team. Overall Im happy, I do like Denver and would of liked to see them be able to win together here but it wasnt working and Denver count seem to make a deal to get a PG to play with AI so I guess its best that they part. But ill still root for Denver to win in the West.
> 
> So whatcha you think of the deal for Allen Slic?


I'm ecstatic beyond words. I literally can't stop smiling about it. I haven't actually thought Iverson has had a chance at getting into the second round in 5 years, and now, it's almost an inevitability. I'd started to give up on Iverson's career. I really, honestly just can't express it.

My biggest fear is that Detroit will move AI's contract for some younger talent before the trade deadline. Other than that, I can't see how this can possibly be worse.

That, and Detroit playing the sixers in the playoffs. That would suck unless it was the semi's. Then I'd win no matter what. But it the first round? Ugh.


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## darth-horax

Nuggets have released Juwan Howard as of 2:48 pm today, and will keep Dice.

Yeauh!!! 

This trade is awesome! Billups is a proven point who doesn't demand a ton of shots to be effective.

Basically, we're getting the same output from a player who demands less shots...he hits a high percentage of 3 pointers, plays good D, and loves to distribute. AI, love him to death, did not play D, didn't like to really pass, and wants 30 shots/game. Billups will be the glue to this team.

Plus, we can now get Melo, Nene, and KMart the shots they've deserved this season without suffering from the wrath of AI.

I read this morning taht AI was so mad that he only got 13 shots the other night that he left the locker room without speacking to the media...

Oh well...this is a good trade!


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## jericho

I've gained a lot of respect for Iverson during his brief time in Denver, but man is this a good trade for Denver. I'd like it even more if Camby were still around, because then they'd be looking like contenders. As it is, they're a more cohesive, interesting team that's still a couple years away from rebuilding.

But in terms of the overall team's composition and chemistry, I'd have been happy with trading Iverson for Billups straight up. Getting McDyess in the deal as a very competent, steady backup for both Nene and Kenyon is an excellent bonus. Nice to see both Antonio and Chauncey coming back. 

This is Very Cool!


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## Ruff Draft

McDyess has said he won't play anywhere but Detroit, so...


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## pac4eva5

holy crap i posted this yesterday kinda for fun.

id love dice but buying him out literally puts us slightly under the luxery tax. its a no-brainer for stan. that was why my original idea was to get an expiring (like snow). this is even better. didnt lose any draft picks either.

howard most def. will be re-signed again. also this 7 foot african dude might turn out, u never know?

we are 2 small pieces away from a championship team. we could use a backup SG who can hit outside shots. we could also use another big.

word is the nuggets have a big time plan on using the TE this summer.

getting better, getting out of the luxery, and not losing any picks...its a dream.


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## pac4eva5

HB said:


> If you dont keep Dice, Denver really isn't that good. I like Sliccat's optimism, but I dont see it. Injury prone bigs, shoddy defense, though Billups will greatly help perimeter D and finally playing in the most talented conference in the NBA also counts for something.


everybody is healthy. our defense is 10x better than last season. and we finally have a legit PG that can actually spread the floor (even hit a free throw every now and then!).

what more do u want? "shoddy defense" makes u look like such a ****ing idiot right now. balkman and kmart are top 10 defenders at the 2 - 4. nene is a beast post defender. birdman is a quality backup who can block 5 shots in 10 minutes. jr smith starting makes our 5'10"/6'1" backcourt into a 6'3"/6'6" backcourt. that isnt something to consider? both guys are 40% three point shooters as well. 

our half court offense just became 200% better. that helps on the other end of the floor as well...


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## AIFan

This trade isn't all that great for _enver, besides Billups they still don't know how to defend, hence no D in Denver.

Until they grasp the concept of playing defense, they will remain underachievers


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## darth-horax

Until you start watching games and noticing that they do play D this year, you will remain an underachieving poster.


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## pac4eva5

simply put, RETARD.


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## Kuskid

AIFan said:


> This trade isn't all that great for _enver, besides Billups they still don't know how to defend, hence no D in Denver.
> 
> Until they grasp the concept of playing defense, they will remain underachievers


Wow, thank you for explaining that totally original, complex joke to me. I mean that, too. When you typed _enver instead of Denver, I couldn't help but wonder if it was some sort of strange typo or if there was some subtle, hidden meaning which I could never hope to decode. Then, luckily for me, you were kind enough to explain your clever twist on the English language for all of us who just couldn't figure out what you meant by _enver. Again- thank you, friend.


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## AIFan

darth-horax said:


> Until you start watching games and noticing that they do play D this year, you will remain an underachieving poster.


Until you get your head out of your azz, your opinions will always sound like shyt. My idea of playing defense spans 48 minutes a game, not 12, not 24, and surely doesn't include being one of 9 teams, all of which are under .500, giving up over 100ppg. Seems like our definitions of defense are slightly different


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## Floods

AIFan said:


> Until you get your head out of your azz, your opinions will always sound like shyt. My idea of playing defense spans 48 minutes a game, not 12, not 24, and surely doesn't include being one of 9 teams, all of which are under .500, giving up over 100ppg. Seems like our definitions of defense are slightly different


Denver wins this trade in a landslide, because they acquired a true point guard that can lead a team, play solid defense, and step up in crunch time, all things that they needed. And with AI out of the picture, J.R. Smith will get more chances to show us his stuff, and he'll be able to put up enough scoring to make Iverson's departure not really matter.


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## AIFan

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> Denver wins this trade in a landslide, because they acquired a true point guard that can lead a team, play solid defense, and step up in crunch time, all things that they needed. And with AI out of the picture, J.R. Smith will get more chances to show us his stuff, and he'll be able to put up enough scoring to make Iverson's departure not really matter.


A landslide? Laughable. They may buyout Dice, freeing up salary room, but in Billups they get a 33yr old guard on the decline who is in the second season of a four-year contract worth a guaranteed $46 million with a $14 million team option for a fifth year. He hasn't been crunch for over a year now, and with J.R. Smith likely to move into the starting lineup, it makes an already very weak bench even weaker. Hardly a landslide guy, nice try though.


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## nbanoitall

Sliccat said:


> Yes, but the billups trade is going to make denver the so much better... I might stick around.
> 
> I really can't believe how good of a trade this is for Denver.


:wearenumber1: good for you. forget me, myself, and Iverson.


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## nbanoitall

nuggets are saying Dice is staying. That means no buyout. and I doubt dice would dissapoint Nugget fans and walk out on his contract. retire or play Dicey!


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## Floods

AIFan said:


> A landslide? Laughable. They may buyout Dice, freeing up salary room, but in Billups they get a 33yr old guard on the decline who is in the second season of a four-year contract worth a guaranteed $46 million with a $14 million team option for a fifth year. He hasn't been crunch for over a year now, and with J.R. Smith likely to move into the starting lineup, it makes an already very weak bench even weaker. Hardly a landslide guy, nice try though.


Guess who else is a 33 year old guard and on the decline? Allen Iverson. Whoops.

From Denver's side, Chauncey's contract is pretty decent value, and he gives them (as I've already said) a lot of things they were missing or needed more of, such as a ball handler, defender, shooter, and floor leader. Denver's starting PG before this trade was Anthony ****ing Carter. Now they have Billups. That's not an improvement? J.R. Smith is a scoring machine and he'll get to showcase that with Iverson out of the picture now. The perimeter shooting aspect that Smith and Billups will bring out of the backcourt is the best compliment to Carmelo, who is at his best when driving to the basket. Giving him shooters to pull defenders away from him is critical. Come New Years, Nuggets fans will have forgotten Iverson even played for their team. Though they're still a defender away from contending for anything notable.

From Detroit's side, this is nearly identical to the Suns making the Shaq trade last year, with the exception of the contract differences. Phoenix thought their current group was finished, so they decided to trade for a player who didn't fit their system, like Shaq. That didn't work out last year, it won't work out at all. Same thing with the Pistons, Joe D decided to stir the pot and bring in a 33 year old tweener guard who will be forced to play point guard. That didn't work in Denver, and Denver has a system that actually plays to Iverson's strengths. How the hell is it going to work out in Detroit? That's on the floor. Off the floor, the Pistons are doing one of two things -- either waiting for the 2009 FA class, which (if Boozer and Bryant don't opt out) holds such gems as Mike Bibby, Mehmet Okur, Andre Miller, and Hedo Turkoglu, or they're waiting for 2010 in hopes of landing of Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, or LeBron James. To land one of those three franchise building blocks that they will need at that point, they'll have to convince them not only to stay away from huge markets like New York, Chicago, and possibly Los Angeles, but they also have to out-battle the teams that will be trying to keep those players in Miami, Toronto, or Cleveland respectively. I don't like Detroit's odds in that fight.

The Pistons would have been better off making a final chase for a ring, they had the pieces to do it, I don't care what anyone says. Instead Dumars blew it and decided to wrap up his team's fate in potential big time free agents for 2010.


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## pac4eva5

nbanoitall said:


> nuggets are saying Dice is staying. That means no buyout. and I doubt dice would dissapoint Nugget fans and walk out on his contract. retire or play Dicey!


buy out. its fact.

the good news is we used the camby TE for dice and samb, leaving us with 3 million left. then we got a whole nother 10 million dollar TE from the billups/iverson swap. thats 13 million for next year's offseason that wont expire til nov. 3 of '09. buying out dice will cost us 6 million but it can be spread out over the 2 years hes supposed to be under contract (so 3 mill this season, 3 mill next season). we are now officially at the lux tax line and will probably be completely out by the deadline. this was crucial for stan.

again, we obviously got better, saved a boat load of money, didnt lose any picks, and have a legitimate chance at competing for a title in the next few years. and supposedly there are specific plans for using the TE in the offseason to pick up a very good player.

what. a. trade.


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## AIFan

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> Guess who else is a 33 year old guard and on the decline? Allen Iverson. Whoops.


They've been saying AI's on the decline since he turned 30, but what do they have to back up such a ridiculous claim? Can't say scoring cause he's averaged 26ppg or better every since his 3rd year in the league. Can't say minutes cause he's logged 41mpg since his 3rd year in the league. Can't say assists cause he's averaged 7apg the past 4 seasons. Can't say steals cause he's averaged about 2spg since coming into the league. Can't say turnovers cause last year he averaged the fewest TOpg than at any time in his career. Can't say FG% cause last year he shot the best he ever has at any time in his career except for his second season. Can't say 3pt % cause when he first joined the Nuggets he shot a career best 34.7% and only dropped off .1% last year, both of which are career bests. So where's the decline at?

Now let's look at Chauncey, over the past 3 seasons his averages in scoring, assists, and rebounds are all on the decline. 

Over their careers, AI is a better shooter, better scorer and better assist guy than Billups, and that's just looking at the facts. Oh, and did I mention that AI is even older than Billups?



Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> From Denver's side, Chauncey's contract is pretty decent value, and he gives them (as I've already said) a lot of things they were missing or needed more of, such as a ball handler, defender, shooter, and floor leader. Denver's starting PG before this trade was Anthony ****ing Carter. Now they have Billups. That's not an improvement? J.R. Smith is a scoring machine and he'll get to showcase that with Iverson out of the picture now. The perimeter shooting aspect that Smith and Billups will bring out of the backcourt is the best compliment to Carmelo, who is at his best when driving to the basket. Giving him shooters to pull defenders away from him is critical. Come New Years, Nuggets fans will have forgotten Iverson even played for their team. Though they're still a defender away from contending for anything notable.


I'm not saying Billups is a bum, not by a long shot, but to say Denver gets the better end of this deal BY A LANDSLIDE is pretty retarded when you really look at things. 

You're giving a JR Smith way too much credit. Yeah, he can get off at times, no doubt, but can he do it night in and night out? His scoring average hasn't even hit puberty yet, how do you figure you're gonna be able to depend on him and his scoring to erase the thoughts of AI? You got jokes.



Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> From Detroit's side, this is nearly identical to the Suns making the Shaq trade last year, with the exception of the contract differences. Phoenix thought their current group was finished, so they decided to trade for a player who didn't fit their system, like Shaq. That didn't work out last year, it won't work out at all. Same thing with the Pistons, Joe D decided to stir the pot and bring in a 33 year old tweener guard who will be forced to play point guard. That didn't work in Denver, and Denver has a system that actually plays to Iverson's strengths. How the hell is it going to work out in Detroit?


Only time will tell


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## Floods

AIFan said:


> They've been saying AI's on the decline since he turned 30, but what do they have to back up such a ridiculous claim? Can't say scoring cause he's averaged 26ppg or better every since his 3rd year in the league. Can't say minutes cause he's logged 41mpg since his 3rd year in the league. Can't say assists cause he's averaged 7apg the past 4 seasons. Can't say steals cause he's averaged about 2spg since coming into the league. Can't say turnovers cause last year he averaged the fewest TOpg than at any time in his career. Can't say FG% cause last year he shot the best he ever has at any time in his career except for his second season. Can't say 3pt % cause when he first joined the Nuggets he shot a career best 34.7% and only dropped off .1% last year, both of which are career bests. So where's the decline at?


Who's they? I didn't say AI was declining in the past few seasons. He's going to start declining before long, he plays a bruising style of basketball, and now that his rather small frame is 33 years old, its only a matter of time before we see the real drop-off.

Chauncey Billups is a much better fit for this team than Iverson was. As I've said numerous times, Billups gives the Nuggets things that Iverson did not give them (refer to my previous posts on the matter for details). Its not all about sick stats, its about winning games, and Billups compliments Melo much better than Iverson. Denver does win this in a landslide, and pac4eva5 stated that they still have a sizeable trade exception to use to acquire yet another piece, something I didn't even know.


> I'm not saying Billups is a bum, not by a long shot, but to say Denver gets the better end of this deal BY A LANDSLIDE is pretty retarded when you really look at things.


What things?

Detroit got an expiring contract in Iverson, both him and Sheed expire at season's end. Next summer's FA class is mediocre at best, and half the league will be battling for those big name 2010 free agents. Stuckey, Prince, and Amir Johnson is not nearly a good enough foundation to be respectable in the future, so Detroit is essentially putting the future of their franchise in the hands of players they likely won't even get.

Denver, again, got a guy who filled all their holes, knows what winning is about and played on a Pistons team that was the best team in the NBA from 2004-2006. Billups and Smith, again, make Melo's life that much easier, which is kind of important seeing as he's the face of the franchise. Not to mention they still have room to land another piece, preferably a defender, and they didn't lose any draft picks. The contract thing is meaningless, Denver obviously didn't make this deal to save money.



> You're giving a JR Smith way too much credit. Yeah, he can get off at times, no doubt, but can he do it night in and night out? His scoring average hasn't even hit puberty yet, how do you figure you're gonna be able to depend on him and his scoring to erase the thoughts of AI? You got jokes.


His numbers will flourish without Iverson around. Melo is the clear #1 option, and Smith moves up to #2. Having a true point guard in the mix will also help his numbers.


Addition by subtraction, my friend. The Nuggets subtracted the superstar who had them in a rut, and added a smart, quality basketball player who knows how to win and won't smother the ball like Iverson did.


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## darth-horax

More facts:

AI has a shelf life that's more than likely much shorter than Chauncey's because of his rough style of play. He's on a bum knee and ankle, and his game is speed. 

Billups is a smarter PG, and he is better in half court sets...and he'll actually pass the ball into the post. He's more consistent from 3, and he's a proven winner (something AI has not done in the L yet).

I'll miss AI, but this trade was good to both teams...a rarity in today's league.

Stop drinking the kool aid and just look at the facts...Denver didn't need AI as badly as they needed somebody to provide consistent, smart play from the PG spot. The last thing they needed was an undersized 2 guard.


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## AIFan

Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> I didn't say AI was declining in the past few seasons. He's going to start declining before long


No, you didn't say he was "declining in the past few seasons", you said "guess who else is 33 and on the decline?" obviously referring to AI. But after I showed you overwhelming proof that he's not I see you've changed your tune to "he's going to start declining before long." 



Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> Chauncey Billups is a much better fit for this team than Iverson was. As I've said numerous times, Billups gives the Nuggets things that Iverson did not give them (refer to my previous posts on the matter for details). Its not all about sick stats, its about winning games, and Billups compliments Melo much better than Iverson. Denver does win this in a landslide, and pac4eva5 stated that they still have a sizeable trade exception to use to acquire yet another piece, something I didn't even know.


I agree that Billups gives the Nuggets things AI didn't, but in all fairness, he can't give them some things AI did. Billups is a better defender, a better floor general and a guy who is a playmaker first but can score as well. I'll give you that. But if Billups is so much better at getting his teammates involved, why is it that AI has averaged more APG every year since Billups has been in the league except 1? Perfect example of how underrated AI's passing game is. Denver loses this trade easily because Dumars just acquired cap space in one fell swoop, which is what the Nuggets had been supposedly trying to do all along with AI and his expiring contract. Iverson makes almost $21 million this year and with just Rasheed's expiring contract we're looking at a Pistons team that could have at least $30 million cap space this summer. And all they had to give up was an old PG who's game has been declining the past few years and a player who will eventually resign with them for the mid-level exception. 

Yeah, Billups makes nearly 10 mill less than AI, but Dice is on the books for 13.5 and Billups has about 26 mil left on his contract too, this keeps the Nuggets well over the luxury tax level this season, and near it in 2009-10 even with just seven players signed and Linas Kleiza's contract situation in the air. Give Linas seven million a year, and the Nuggets are paying six or seven million in luxury tax with only eight roster spots filled. Assuming Kleiza gets the contract I mentioned, even with McDyess' contract expiring, the Nuggets are on the books for nearly $70 million in 2010-11 with just Chauncey, Nene, Kenyon Martin, Kleiza, Carmelo Anthony, and J.R. Smith on board. Just six players, well over the cap, and approaching luxury tax territory.

So how are they landslide winners in this trade when not only are they still gonna get taken out in the first round, if they even make the post season, but haven't done much to brighten their financial outlook?



Jacoby_Ellsbury said:


> Denver, again, got a guy who filled all their holes, knows what winning is about and played on a Pistons team that was the best team in the NBA from 2004-2006. Billups and Smith, again, make Melo's life that much easier, which is kind of important seeing as he's the face of the franchise. Not to mention they still have room to land another piece, preferably a defender, and they didn't lose any draft picks. The contract thing is meaningless, Denver obviously didn't make this deal to save money.


Billups fills in all the holes in Denver? That statement shows how out of touch with reality you are. Billups makes their bench stronger? He makes Nene and Martin the durable and dependable bigs they so desperately need to have any chance at making the post season? He gets them past New Orleans, the Lakers, Utah, Houston and San Antonio (when they get Manu back)? I want some of whatever it is you're smoking.



darth-horax said:


> More facts:
> 
> AI has a shelf life that's more than likely much shorter than Chauncey's because of his rough style of play. He's on a bum knee and ankle, and his game is speed.
> 
> Billups is a smarter PG, and he is better in half court sets...and he'll actually pass the ball into the post. He's more consistent from 3, and he's a proven winner (something AI has not done in the L yet).
> 
> I'll miss AI, but this trade was good to both teams...a rarity in today's league.
> 
> Stop drinking the kool aid and just look at the facts...Denver didn't need AI as badly as they needed somebody to provide consistent, smart play from the PG spot. The last thing they needed was an undersized 2 guard.


Your opinion of AI's shelf life is far from fact. AI's been playing on a bum something or another his whole career and it hasn't stopped him from putting up guaranteed first ballot hall of fame numbers.

Billups is a smarter PG because he IS a PG, AI is a SG doing a damn good job of playing PG when you consider he out assists many PG's and most SG's. He's not the floor general Billups is, but he's also not the 30 something year old guard who's skills have begun to falter, leaving his team without a guy who could hit the big shots down the stretch. AI is instant offense, he can create and score on his own, which is a threat the Pistons haven't had in a while. Look for the Pistons to push the pace instead of treading along in their boring and predictable half court sets. Billups isn't a proven winner, his team is a proven winner. Look at the talent he's had around him since he got to Detroit compared to what AI has had and it's clear why Chauncey's team has fared better. Chew on those facts.


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## pac4eva5

you're spewing a whole bunch of crap right now so i skimmed through your post and i LOVE the assist "argument"



> But if Billups is so much better at getting his teammates involved, why is it that AI has averaged more APG every year since Billups has been in the league except 1? Perfect example of how underrated AI's passing game is.


last time i checked, "getting teammates involved" isnt an assist stat. "moving the ball" doesnt really fall into a category.

if a guy like iverson or marbury decides to pound the ball for a ridiculous amount of time, THEY BETTER HAVE A GOOD AMOUNT OF ASSISTS!

its not called "assist guard". swinging the ball, dropping the ball off, dumping the ball in the post, MOVING the ball, thats exactly what point guard is about. if it was hockey, billups would average 3x as much assits as iverson...

get it?


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## AIFan

pac4eva5 said:


> you're spewing a whole bunch of crap right now so i skimmed through your post and i LOVE the assist "argument"
> 
> last time i checked, "getting teammates involved" isnt an assist stat. "moving the ball" doesnt really fall into a category.
> 
> if a guy like iverson or marbury decides to pound the ball for a ridiculous amount of time, THEY BETTER HAVE A GOOD AMOUNT OF ASSISTS!
> 
> its not called "assist guard". swinging the ball, dropping the ball off, dumping the ball in the post, MOVING the ball, thats exactly what point guard is about. if it was hockey, billups would average 3x as much assits as iverson...
> 
> get it?


The amount of assists though clearly shows that a player is getting other guys involved and passes the ball, after all, how could one get an assist if he didn't pass the rock? You're right, it's not called "assist guard" it's called "point guard" and when it comes to points, AI kills Billups in that category too.


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## nbanoitall

buh bye AI... don' let Rocky kick you in the groin on the wayout. :wave:

go post in the detroit forums so I won't have to pass through anymore of the crap you spew about Me, Myself, and Iverson. 42% career from the field from this so called first ballot hall of famer. You take his time away from Carmelo Anthony (who the defense had to focus on) and he's shooting right at 40%. Thats beyond chucker territory and just flat out ball hogging, poor shot selection and flat out poor shooter.


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## AIFan

nbanoitall said:


> buh bye AI... don' let Rocky kick you in the groin on the wayout. :wave:
> 
> go post in the detroit forums so I won't have to pass through anymore of the crap you spew about Me, Myself, and Iverson. 42% career from the field from this so called first ballot hall of famer. You take his time away from Carmelo Anthony (who the defense had to focus on) and he's shooting right at 40%. Thats beyond chucker territory and just flat out ball hogging, poor shot selection and flat out poor shooter.


considering game has been made up of attacking the bigs in the paint, it's clear to see why at 6ft, he's got the FG% he does. Doesn't change the fact that he's 3rd on the list all time in ppg, or that he's scored nearly 24k points, or that he's averaged 7apg or better 6 years and running, or that he's accumulated the numerous awards throughout his illustrious NBA career, or that he's helped so many underprivelidged youth via his Crossover Foundation. Just stating the facts


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## nbanoitall

AIFan said:


> considering game has been made up of attacking the bigs in the paint, it's clear to see why at 6ft, he's got the FG% he does.


Mark Price was 6 foot tall. He also averaged 47% from the field. Its all about shot selection. eace:
Muggsy Bogues (5'3) shot 46%


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## AIFan

nbanoitall said:


> Mark Price was 6 foot tall. He also averaged 47% from the field. Its all about shot selection. eace:
> Muggsy Bogues (5'3) shot 46%


Mark Price was a very gifted perimiter shooter who rarely took it to the bigs in the paint. Muggsy was a midrange jump shooter who found the openings and took the shot when he could since he couldn't create his shot by himself and never averaged more than 11ppg. AI is scoring damn near at will, taking it to the bigs, getting beat up, averaging 28ppg for his career, averaging over 41mpg, playing with a multitude of injuries and still shooting a close percentage to Mark Price, one of the deadliest shooters to ever play the game. Either way, they're both small percentage improvements over AI. All of them in their prime and pick one to start a new team with, AI gets my vote easily.


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## nbanoitall

AIFan said:


> Mark Price was a very gifted perimiter shooter who rarely took it to the bigs in the paint. Muggsy was a midrange jump shooter who found the openings and took the shot when he could since he couldn't create his shot by himself and never averaged more than 11ppg. AI is scoring damn near at will, taking it to the bigs, getting beat up, averaging 28ppg for his career, averaging over 41mpg, playing with a multitude of injuries and still shooting a close percentage to Mark Price, one of the deadliest shooters to ever play the game. Either way, they're both small percentage improvements over AI. All of them in their prime and pick one to start a new team with, AI gets my vote easily.


the difference between shooting 42% and 47% is in fact quite large. if a team shoots 42% and another team shoots 47% it would take an enormous amount of 2nd chance buckets to keep that game close for the team shooting 42%. Which is exactly why Carmelo needs to be surrounded by jump shooters and defenders. Another issues with having a 6 foot shooting guard with a 5'11 point guard is nobody can guard the 6'6 wings.
all reason to trade me, myself, and Iverson


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## Floods

Guys its pointless to argue with this guy. His username makes it painfully clear that he's an AI apologist and will go to any lengths to defend him.


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## AIFan

nbanoitall said:


> the difference between shooting 42% and 47% is in fact quite large. if a team shoots 42% and another team shoots 47% it would take an enormous amount of 2nd chance buckets to keep that game close for the team shooting 42%. Which is exactly why Carmelo needs to be surrounded by jump shooters and defenders. Another issues with having a 6 foot shooting guard with a 5'11 point guard is nobody can guard the 6'6 wings.
> all reason to trade me, myself, and Iverson


Ok, I'll concede that. But at the same time, nobody ever claimed AI was a top flight shooter. My point was simply to point out that given the style of ball AI plays, attacking the rim and taking it to the bigs, his FG% is no suprise. Of course his suspect shot selection at times doesn't help.


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## nbanoitall

AIFan said:


> Ok, I'll concede that. But at the same time, nobody ever claimed AI was a top flight shooter. My point was simply to point out that given the style of ball AI plays, attacking the rim and taking it to the bigs, his FG% is no suprise. Of course his suspect shot selection at times doesn't help.


exactly why denver never should have traded for him. I think AI is worth a hall of fame mention but I do believe he is overrated. I always point to his FG percentage. I give Mutombo a lot of credit for the 76ers title run... but then again like you favoring AI I am baised towards Mutombo.
The bottom line is AI was only going to help this team if he transformed into a pass first point guard. Karl played him at the 2. Now the pistons are going to ask AI to play the one. I'm really not so sure that will work out great. I picture a very upset RIP. But thats Detroit's problem now


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## darth-horax

Wait a minute...Mark Price never took it in the paint? How old are you? Ever watch him play?

Man...Mark Price was great at taking it into the paint.


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## AIFan

nbanoitall said:


> exactly why denver never should have traded for him. I think AI is worth a hall of fame mention but I do believe he is overrated. I always point to his FG percentage. I give Mutombo a lot of credit for the 76ers title run... but then again like you favoring AI I am baised towards Mutombo.
> The bottom line is AI was only going to help this team if he transformed into a pass first point guard. Karl played him at the 2. Now the pistons are going to ask AI to play the one. I'm really not so sure that will work out great. I picture a very upset RIP. But thats Detroit's problem now


A HOF "mention"??? Ur entitled to your opinion so I'll leave that one alone.

I think AI helped the Nuggets, but they didn't help themselves by not playing D. That's a team thing, not an individual thing so the blame for that is spread across the board. Kind of like tonight, the Nuggs were up 18 and now they're nursing a 1pt lead at the half.


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## darth-horax

With only 9 guys active, at least they're in the lead.

AI never has been a great defender...he's not bad, but he certainly didn't help out on that side of things.


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## AIFan

darth-horax said:


> AI never has been a great defender...he's not bad, but he certainly didn't help out on that side of things.


can't argue with that


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## pac4eva5

AIFan said:


> The amount of assists though clearly shows that a player is getting other guys involved and passes the ball, after all, how could one get an assist if he didn't pass the rock?


anytime somebody is pounding the ball for 20 min. a game (especially on the fastest paced team - 106.2) once again, BETTER have 7 assists.

chauncey played on the slowest paced team (89.3). you're telling me chauncey wont make up the difference? again, ball movement > assists. and chauncey will bring both BETTER.



> You're right, it's not called "assist guard" it's called "point guard" and when it comes to points, AI kills Billups in that category too.


lol silly argument. and iverson doesnt really "kill" chauncey either. now sure, u will give "me" stats when supporting iverson by saying he is 3rd in history blah blah...

last season, iverson's true shooting % (points per shot accounting free throw %, 3pt %, and 2pt %) was 56.7%. chauncey had 61.9%. thats very impressive. 

chauncey is simply far more proficient of a scorer. not exactly "killing".

so hes bigger, a better defender, a better rebounder, a more efficient scorer, a better free throw shooter, who also spreads the floor much more, has much better leadership qualities, and just flat out brings a much more superior, team oriented, style of play. <- i like that guy!

biggest factor yet, iverson averaged TEN more minutes a game over chauncey...on the fastest paced offense in the league. i think chauncey will be just fine 

"kills" :lol:


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## AIFan

pac4eva5 said:


> anytime somebody is pounding the ball for 20 min. a game (especially on the fastest paced team - 106.2) once again, BETTER have 7 assists.


My comment was in reference to you saying AI doesn't get his teammates involved, which is a bunch of bs because as much as he has the ball in his hands, he's taking fewer shots, not turning it over as much and has increased his assits to turnover ratio and getting more assists than most PG's out there. If he wasn't getting his guys involved then why is he taking fewer shots? BECAUSE HE'S PASSING THE BALL.



pac4eva5 said:


> iverson doesnt really "kill" chauncey either. now sure, u will give "me" stats when supporting iverson by saying he is 3rd in history blah blah...


how else can you or I prove our arguments if we don't provide factual evidence? Since the above comment is in regards to my contention that AI kills Chauncey when it comes to points.........A.I. = 27.7ppg lifetime, Chauncey = 14.8ppg. That's an absolute murder. 




pac4eva5 said:


> chauncey is simply far more proficient of a scorer


He's definitely more efficient, but not more proficient, not even almost. How could he be when AI is third all time on the career ppg list? How could he be when AI nearly doubles Billups in ppg? It's clear as day that not only does AI murder Billups when it comes to scoring proficiency, but AI is one of the most proficient scorers in the history of the game as illustrated by the fact that he is the sixth fastest player in NBA history to score 20,000 career points. Whereas Mr. Billups is barely over 11k career pts, and that's including this year.



pac4eva5 said:


> so hes bigger, a better defender, a better rebounder, a more efficient scorer, a better free throw shooter, who also spreads the floor much more, has much better leadership qualities, and just flat out brings a much more superior, team oriented, style of play. <- i like that guy!


Chauncey showed his age last year, especially on the defensive end and has shown an inability to defend quick guards and often ceded the job of defending them to Rip. Having help like that saved him on the defensive end many times in Detroit but who's he gonna depend on in Denver? He's gonna be exposed. And with Denver's uptempo offense and Chauncey's reluctance to push the tempo, will be continue to beat the ball while waiting for action to develop?


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