# These Lakers are Kobe's team NOW



## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

These Lakers are Kobe's team. Kobe routinely leads the team in scoring now and basically leads the charge NOW throughout the game. Kobe used to play 2nd fiddle to the Diesel during the 1st 3 quarters of the game taking over late. But now with Shaq not being as explosive thus not as dominant its Kobe who keeps us in games and gets the chance to get off 1st. Its probably a natural progression . Shaq getting older and Kobe getting better. 

Some people may accept that its Kobe's team some may not be its the fact now. Shaq misses 3pt plays that a couple years ago he was throwing down on the regular. At times during games he doesn't get rebounds that he should because of fatigue. Looking at Shaq's face when he came out of the game yesterday he was whipped. Kobe can run all day. 

Shaq is still dominant, he's still an incredible force down low, but Kobe is the one who not only makes the key plays but all the ones in between now. Shaq can be defended by players now he still scores but doesn't always dominate. Kobe steadily throughout a game is in attack mode. 

I remember when Kobe shot those airballs in Utah and he caught a lotta flack I remember thinking one day the heart it took to take those shots is gonna serve the kid well. And it has. 

*Question, Is Kobe better than you thought he could be , Worse, or exactly what you thought he'd become after seeing him when he 1st came here as a teenager*


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

Shaq runs the Lakers. He knows when he should take over and when Kobe should take over. One or two more years and then it will be Kobes team. Run the offense through Shaq and let him create for others by drawing the double or just take the shot.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Kobe is not even as good as I thought he would be. Even when he was a teen he had greatness written all over him. He has grown into a great player, but I expect him to become the greatest!

And yes! It is Kobe's team now.


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## JGKoblenz (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> *Question, Is Kobe better than you thought he could be , Worse, or exactly what you thought he'd become after seeing him when he 1st came here as a teenager*


He is exactly what you thought he'd become, but he will develop his game even more, so in the end I think he will be better than I thought.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> Kobe is not even as good as I thought he would be. Even when he was a teen he had greatness written all over him. He has grown into a great player, but I expect him to become the greatest!
> 
> And yes! It is Kobe's team now.


Interesting that you say this. I really didn't expect to hear this response. 

The one rthing that was apparent after watching Kobe as a teen was that he loved the game. He loved to make the incredible play. He has learned how to make the basic fundamentally sound play. 

To answer my own question, I'm not sure. One thing's for sure though is how far he's come in such a short time. That is stunning to me. I thought he'd be where he is now in 3 years from now. 

In 3 years Kobe will be the unquestioned best player in the league and on his way to the top 5 alltime. 

Kobe's work ethic and ability to know how too improve and knowing what his weaknesses are is unparalled. 

The only thing Kobe needs to improve on at this point is his leadership ability. Shaq's a better leader than he is right now. Kobe's getting better but has some things to learn about leading his teammates. I thought this was the 1st season he's really stepped into that role. Kobe's willingness to learn is key . Although he and Phil butt heads sometimes he takes all the lessons Phil teaches. When Kobe learns to accept that his teammates being involved are as important as his ability to play well then he'll be right there as a leader.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

The first time I saw him play he was so incredible. His game amazed me. I knew he had the talent to become a great player. Then he was so competitive and unaffraid to take the big shots. Even when Kobe was shooting those airballs in Utah, I knew he would be great! Having the guts to take those shots at 18 let me know he had the potential to be the greatest. I never doubt him.


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## ST (Jul 25, 2002)

*he would have to learn...*

not to phase out his teammates when he wants to get himself going. I know that sometimes, in order to get in to a rhythm, you have to take shots but sometimes Kobe takes it into extremes. The ball gets inbounded to him and that's the last you'll hear from it. 

Sometimes. 

He must trust his teammates by moving the ball and knowing that most of the ball movement usually comes back to him anyway. Ball movement keeps people involved and if they feel involved, they would do things for you (like dive on the floor, play tougher defense). When your teammates are willing to do that for you, that shows the mark of leadership.

On defense, his defensive footwork isn't that refined yet as he depends on his athletic ability to beat the offensive player. He has to learn how to use his mind to defend, how to beat the offense to a spot, learn when not to gamble for steals and use your big man, flush eveything to Shaq if you give up penetration.
Kobe's a roamer right now, much like Pippen was during the Bulls' run. As of now, Pippen was a better defender because of his game IQ.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> *Question, Is Kobe better than you thought he could be , Worse, or exactly what you thought he'd become after seeing him when he 1st came here as a teenager*


Much better. As a rookie I saw him as nothing more than an athletic finisher. He had a mediocre jumpshot, average handles, and played average D. I thought he'd be a good player in time but not a top 5 player and future HOF. To his credit he worked very hard on his game.


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## 3PeatComplete (Jul 11, 2002)

There's a poll at http://www.nba.com/canada/ asking who's the Lakers' most valuable player and to my surprise, Kobe is in the lead. As much as I love Kobe, I still think it's Shaq's team. The only reason is because I think the team is weaker when they don't have Shaq than when they don't have Kobe. When Shaq goes to the bench, we're a weak team and it seems harder to score than if Kobe were to sit.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: These Lakers are Kobe's team NOW*



> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> Much better. As a rookie I saw him as nothing more than an athletic finisher. He had a mediocre jumpshot, average handles, and played average D. I thought he'd be a good player in time but not a top 5 player and future HOF. To his credit he worked very hard on his game.


I thought he hand a very nice handle. He had one of the better cross overs that I've seen.I agree though his jumper was really raw. He had that spark with me though. He would always make one play that you just said no way he just did that. I think it helped Kobe that he came to a team of young players. No grizzled vets to discourage his skills.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

The Bulls of the 90s were run through Jordan

The Lakers of the 00's are run through shaq

Kobe is not the leader of the team until the offense is run through him. Shaq is still responsible for getting all his other teammates involved and still putting up big points. Kobes job is just to score score score. 

Shaq job on the lakers run deeper than to just score.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

It's a very different situation but i really don't see why it can't be Kobe and Shaq's team.

Shaq is still the leader of the players, and the anchor of the offense


but...

when things are going crazy and hectic Kobe more routinely slows it down and takes control of the team which is something he never did before.

I also think he is better than Shaq now. 


Overall I see it as a mix. They both are the leaders of the team.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> The Bulls of the 90s were run through Jordan
> 
> The Lakers of the 00's are run through shaq
> ...


Wrong you're using cliche's to analize these Lakers. The 1st 3 titles the offense was run through Shaq. Aside from the 2nd title Shaq lead the team in scoring. This year though the offense runs to find the weaknesses in the defense. And its Kobe who leads with assists who sets the table more often. Kobe's job is two fold, set up others and score. Shaq's job is low post presence and manning the paint on defense. In each game in this Spurs series the offense has come through Kobe using pick and rolls or Kobe penetrating and kicking. I wouldn't say either is 1st or 2nd option thats an oversimplification because both take turns doing their things. But Kobe has been better and the more consistent of the two. He's made the key baskets. Shaq has a physical advantage over everyone because of his size but this year with him being less explosive defenses aren't nearly at his mercy as much as in the past. Shaq has to really bring the energy and passion to be successful when before he just needed to show up.


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## Stojakovic16 (Jan 12, 2003)

Grizzo would have loved this thread.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

if im a laker fan i hope its still shaqs team, i hope its kobes team so the laker reign is over, SHAQ=RINGS


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Jazzy this is Kobe's team.

Shaq is so out of shape now and sucking wind that it is sad. I just wish he had more work ethic cause if did he would still be able to play another 5 years. I hope he loses weight when he gets out of basketball or he will be a fat fat man. But if Kobe doesn't play well, this team can not win anymore. I think I have finally seen that. Did you see how poorly Shaq shot in game 4. he was like 6-17. That is horrible for a man taking shots from 8 feet and in.


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## dmilesai (Jul 19, 2002)

Shaq's team. I know this comparison may seem extreme. But if you took Shaq off the team and added the 5th best center (about Brad Miller, Ratliff or Ilgauskas) you'd be a great team, but not a championship team as you currently are. If you took Kobe off the team and added about the 10th best shooting guard, (about Rip Hamilton) you'd still possibly be the favorite to win the finals. Why? There's no one as dominant as Shaq. As much as I hate him, he gets tons of foul shots due to his dominance (even though some are ticky tack calls). You may think I'm crazy, but Shaq and Rip would still be a championship caliber team IMO. Maybe not THE BEST team as the Lakers may currently be, but definitely a top 3 team.

Kobe has not yet proven he can win without another dominant force on the team. I'm not hating on Kobe, but he has yet to prove he can win as the only scoring option. He could be THE best player in the league soon and will run the Lakers at one time in his career (maybe next year), but it's not Kobes team RIGHT NOW IMO.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dmilesai</b>!
> Shaq's team. I know this comparison may seem extreme. But if you took Shaq off the team and added the 5th best center (about Brad Miller, Ratliff or Ilgauskas) you'd be a great team, but not a championship team as you currently are. If you took Kobe off the team and added about the 10th best shooting guard, (about Rip Hamilton) you'd still possibly be the favorite to win the finals. Why? There's no one as dominant as Shaq. As much as I hate him, he gets tons of foul shots due to his dominance (even though some are ticky tack calls). You may think I'm crazy, but Shaq and Rip would still be a championship caliber team IMO. Maybe not THE BEST team as the Lakers may currently be, but definitely a top 3 team.


Shaq and Rip would definitely be a top team, but Top 3? Not a chance.

Also, remember that this is affected by there being WAY WAY WAY more good SGs than Cs in the league.

Hamilton is twice as good as someone like Brad Miller.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> Wrong you're using cliche's to analize these Lakers. The 1st 3 titles the offense was run through Shaq. Aside from the 2nd title Shaq lead the team in scoring. This year though the offense runs to find the weaknesses in the defense. And its Kobe who leads with assists who sets the table more often. Kobe's job is two fold, set up others and score. Shaq's job is low post presence and manning the paint on defense. In each game in this Spurs series the offense has come through Kobe using pick and rolls or Kobe penetrating and kicking. I wouldn't say either is 1st or 2nd option thats an oversimplification because both take turns doing their things. But Kobe has been better and the more consistent of the two. He's made the key baskets. Shaq has a physical advantage over everyone because of his size but this year with him being less explosive defenses aren't nearly at his mercy as much as in the past. Shaq has to really bring the energy and passion to be successful when before he just needed to show up.


Well whether or not its kobe or shaqs team, I know that they are a better team when shaq is the focus and not kobe. 

When shaq touches the ball every possession, they are nearly unbeatable. 

Kobe has admitted shaq is the leader of the team, as has phil jackson. Because they know that shaq = rings. 

Even though shaq had his worst season in a long while, maybe ever, he was still top 5 in scoring and rebounds...that should tell you enough right there.


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## dmilesai (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> 
> 
> Shaq and Rip would definitely be a top team, but Top 3? Not a chance.
> ...


That was part of my point. It is Shaq's team due partly to the lack of big men and excess of SGs.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dmilesai</b>!
> Shaq's team. I know this comparison may seem extreme. But if you took Shaq off the team and added the 5th best center (about Brad Miller, Ratliff or Ilgauskas) you'd be a great team, but not a championship team as you currently are. If you took Kobe off the team and added about the 10th best shooting guard, (about Rip Hamilton) you'd still possibly be the favorite to win the finals. Why? There's no one as dominant as Shaq. As much as I hate him, he gets tons of foul shots due to his dominance (even though some are ticky tack calls). You may think I'm crazy, but Shaq and Rip would still be a championship caliber team IMO. Maybe not THE BEST team as the Lakers may currently be, but definitely a top 3 team.
> 
> Kobe has not yet proven he can win without another dominant force on the team. I'm not hating on Kobe, but he has yet to prove he can win as the only scoring option. He could be THE best player in the league soon and will run the Lakers at one time in his career (maybe next year), but it's not Kobes team RIGHT NOW IMO.


Man you have to be kidding. Rip and Shaq would have meant 1st round exit this year. The lakers after Kobe and Shaq really have nothing else consistently. If Kobe doesn't go for 35 in these playoffs on the regular the Lakers can't win its that simple. Rip Hamilton isn't a player that can get you over 30 consistently. So this argument is hogwash. 

And I do think you're crazy forsaying Shaq and Rip thats totally ridiculos. Kobe hasn't proven what he hasn't had the chance to prove that. Guess what NEITHER HAS SHAQ. Kobe's the 1st dominant player he's played with. Penny Hardaway wasn't dominant like Kobe is. And Shaq got swept out of the finals without Kobe. 

What dominant player can win as the only scoring option name one through the history of the league, Shaq, MJ, Wilt, Bird ,Magic, Ai, who, all had other good to great players playing with them its a foolish argument. 

*WATCH THE GAMES* Kobe leads the team every night in scoring , every night. He leads the charge wth Shaq right behind.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Well whether or not its kobe or shaqs team, I know that they are a better team when shaq is the focus and not kobe.
> ...


When Shaq toucches it every possesion it equals stagnate ball movement and offensive fouls. Listen take your mindset out of the last 3 season's the team has changed. Shaq was more of the focus the 1st 2 years than anything. But starting last season and darn sure this year Kobe leads the charge not Shaq. Shaq can't dominate the Spurs like he could the Wolves it ain't happening he can play well but not dominate them. Kobe is where they have the advantage. Shaq and Duncan cancel each other and Kobe's the advantage. 

Shaq equals rings what does that mean did it mean that in Orlando I think not it doesn''t mean that here either. Shaq/Kobe/Phil equals rings thats the formula for success. And you can't replace either guy and say it'd be just as successful. Because of that 3 only Phil is a champion without the other 2. And thats a fact so Shaq equals rings means nothing. 

I say right now not the past things have changed. In some match-ups Shaq's the advantage but others its Kobe. 

I understand the hate for Kobe makes it more comfortable to like Shaq and thats okay but Poppovich as he said last season it Kobe who's killing us not Shaq and he essentially said it after last nights game NOW that should give you a clue. 

If MJ and Shaq played together who would be option 1 Would it be the higher percentage shooter or the clutch player, would it be the bigman who's easily doubled and is shaky from the line or is it the guard who slices and dices avoiding double teams and slices through to the hoop. 

If Shaq was as domianat as he was 2 years back we wouldn't be having this conversation, but NOW Shaq shoots poorly from the field in games and misses chippies all day long. Kobe makes things happen and keeps the team in games. 

As far as when Kobe came off the floor as opposed to Shaq many times depends on what the role players do. against the spurs in game 4 when KObe went to the bench before halftime the team made a run because the role guys stepped up. IN game 3 when Shaq went down before the half with foul trouble the Lakers made a run because of the role players in both instances the team survived without Shaq and Kobe at different times. But in the 4th quarter of game 4 when Kobe was on the bench the team struggled because Kobe was down because its easy to sag in the paint on Shaq when Kobe's not there and vice versa.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

I still dont agree with you

the reason popovich said kobe gives em trouble is because they have two of the best shotblocking seven footers in the history of the nba to atleast "contain" shaq

take out shaq, lakers are the magic, not even a playoff team in the west, because kobe and tmac equal each other...and both teams are pretty much even in all other aspects

and if jordan and shaq played together, there would be no number one option, but they sure as hell wouldnt have trouble winning titles at all. AT ALL.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> I still dont agree with you
> 
> the reason popovich said kobe gives em trouble is because they have two of the best shotblocking seven footers in the history of the nba to atleast "contain" shaq
> ...


You want to believe that Tmac fantasy. Kobe wouldn't have scored 21 pts in his biggest game Kobe brings it so save me the Tmac and Kobe are equal's claim I think thats been proven wrong. What would the Lakers be without Shaq a playoff less team also. Don't add the old if he had another star crap just have Shaq and the rest of the current team. They wouldn't make the playoffs either. Heck they almost missed them this year before KOBE AVERAGED 40PPG FOR A MONTH THAT SAVED THE LAKER SEASON, With them both they were only the 5th seed without either they would be fishing with TMac. 

As for Pops comment I said that earlier Shaq can't dominate the Spurs like he once could, he can't dominate anyone like he once could. But don't you think Bowen, Manu, and Jackson offer Kobe the same challenge as the 2 ,7 footers. I'd say yeah BUT kobe still puts up great numbers. 

How do you know that MJ and Shaq could've coexisted. How do you know this. MJ and Shaq might have more problems than Shaq and Kobe had. MJ's way more selfish a player than Kobe is. And thats a fact. He took more shots than Kobe ever has. MJ was a very selfish scorer and was known as such until he won titles. Don't revise history MJ never played with a dominant post player nor could he I suspect. He would have clashed with Shaq to a larger degree because he's older and would have been more distrustful of Shaq because of Shaq's free throw problems. MJ always played with Centers who cleared the lane for him to drive, Kobe plays with a center that parks in the paint, cloggin all driving lanes. Thats why Kobe has developed his jumper because he knows there's very little room to drive. Remember Kobe's dunk on Yao and his 52 pts without Shaq it was because Shaq wasn't hanging around the lane drawing the attention of the other teams big men there. 

I say that MJ and Shaq had the talent to win titles but never would have because they would never have co-existed.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> Man you have to be kidding. Rip and Shaq would have meant 1st round exit this year. The lakers after Kobe and Shaq really have nothing else consistently. If Kobe doesn't go for 35 in these playoffs on the regular the Lakers can't win its that simple. Rip Hamilton isn't a player that can get you over 30 consistently. So this argument is hogwash.
> ...


I agree with you there. My point is that Kobe has to prove that he is the best player in the game by winning on his own. However, there is no question that he is a top 5 player and that you can't just replace him with chopped liver and still have the same results. I think Kobe has been just as important to the Lakers success this year and Shaq has been. We lost alot of games with him in there but he did an admirable job. On those nights when Shaq didn't really feel like playing Kobe picked up the slack for him and went on one of his scoring binges. When it was important that Shaq re-establish himself as the dominant player on the team Kobe relented and assumed the playmaker's role. The main thing Kobe has brought to the table is his energy. This is an old, slow team with lots of vets who don't always feel like playing. On some nights Kobe was the only guy who came out and played with any energy. He even won us some games by himself. For the reasons above I think that he is the MVP of this team. I've always loved Kobe but you have to look at it objectively. Shaq has been the most dominant player in the league for the last 5-6 years and he was clearly the MVP of this team and the league. Although his play has slipped he still gets the most attnetion from opposing coaches and is still the focus of their gameplan. Kobe is still a secondary focus and teams are usually content to let Kobe get his and stop Shaq. For that reason alot of people think this is Shaq's team. I don't but until Kobe can prove to the world that he can win without Shaq that will be always be a valid statement.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>O2K</b>!
> if im a laker fan i hope its still shaqs team, i hope its kobes team so the laker reign is over, SHAQ=RINGS


:mrt:
How foolish is this. Shaq=Rings?
How about Kobe+Shaq+Phil+West+Buss+Lakers=Rings?
Remember Kobe+Shaq in 1999 did not = rings; it equalled a sweep, so did Shaq+Penny and company.
Lakers (West, Buss) have won without Kobe or Shaq.
Phil has won without Kobe or Shaq, so how can you leave them out of this equation. 
Its that lemon lime haterade isn't? :yes:


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> You want to believe that Tmac fantasy. Kobe wouldn't have scored 21 pts in his biggest game Kobe brings it so save me the Tmac and Kobe are equal's claim I think thats been proven wrong. What would the Lakers be without Shaq a playoff less team also. Don't add the old if he had another star crap just have Shaq and the rest of the current team. They wouldn't make the playoffs either. Heck they almost missed them this year before KOBE AVERAGED 40PPG FOR A MONTH THAT SAVED THE LAKER SEASON, With them both they were only the 5th seed without either they would be fishing with TMac.
> ...


I doubt you'll ever see otherwise, because I think your personal like for kobe as a player has crowded your judgement a little. 

But Shaq does not hold Kobe back, I hate when people try to logically make that point. Shaq draws double and triple teams on the nightly everytime he touches the ball. 

I'm no math major but you cant triple team two guys on a team. So when Kobe is forced to play without Shaq, he will get double and triple teamed nightly for 82 games a season pretty much everytime he touches the ball. That takes its toll. Thats something Tmac, Garnett, Duncan and Shaq all take whenever they play, but Kobe? nah. 

of all the top five players in the NBA, Kobe takes the least amount of double teams, only when Shaq is out. 

You stated: How do I know Jordan could co-exist with Shaq? 

Answer: I dont, but HOW DO YOU KNOW KOBE WOULD SUCCEED WITHOUT SHAQ? 

So we could leave it at this, Jordan couldn't co-exist with another great power player, and Kobe couldnt lead a successful team without Shaq. 

Because neither have happened.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> :mrt:
> ...


How are we haters when we stated openly you win titles because of your best player?

someones getting a little sensitive


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> How are we haters when we stated openly you win titles because of your best player?


Because you dont win titles because of your best player. Think about it, there are 28 teams that have a "best player" and they lose every year. Shaq=Rings is a way of discrediting everyone else who contributed to the recent lakers success. Eventhough Shaq plays a major role, his part is no great than that of the ones I have listed, Kobe, Phil, West, & Buss!

Who's sensitive now?


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## gonejay (Jun 11, 2002)

You dont win titles just because of your best player. Alot of things factor in to it. Just go ask Tmac,Garnett about it.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Shaq is more important to the lakers than jordan was to the bulls

call it discrediting the other laker players, but I just think a lot of laker fans dont give shaq the credit he deserves and give the other players too much credit.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> I doubt you'll ever see otherwise, because I think your personal like for kobe as a player has crowded your judgement a little.
> ...


Lets kill the personal attacks on my judgement . I like Kobe but I'm not blind to certain facts BUT you seeme to be blinded by anti-Kobe feelings and MJ himself. 

I don't accept any of your conclusions at all. You can't summarily dismiss the league's best player by just saying oh he hasn't had the chance to lead a team SO HE MUST NOT BE CAPABLE. 

. *Those who say Kobe has something to prove by himself Doesn't know much about basketball. * . To say after all he's accomplished is somehow less than the Duncan's Kg, and Tmac's just because he plays with Shaq is ignorant and an ignorant thought process. *Kobe has nothing to prove. * 

. *Was MAGIC less of a player for playing with Kareem and James Worthy. Was Mchale less of a player for playing with Parrish and Bird. What about Dumars and Isiah for playiing with each other. This line of argument is a NEW THING PEOPLE USE TO EXTEND THEIR DISLIKE OF KOBE BECAUSE He's so much like MJ in everything he does and is so young that they have to say something to discredit him. Its a baseless argument. Anyone that thinks Kobe is less than capable or talented than the league's other stars haven't been paying attention Plain and simple. This argument was never made for players who weren't hated. * 

Why do you keep saying Shaq gets tripled its another fallacy it doesn't happenthat often at all. He gets doubled thats it. Kobe gets doubled also. Weren't you paying attention to Flip Saunders when he said this all series. You can easily double 3 people at a time and it happens on a regular basis. Another misnomer out there is that the defense is tougher when there's only one star on the floor ala TMac another fallacy for people who know basketball. Its just not true. There are benefits and drawbacks to play with another dominant scorer its not all gravy to a player stats by himself nor is it lovely playing without a dominant scorer.It has advantages and disadvatages. 

I gotta go more later


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

theres no way you can see what I'm saying. It was a different situation in the 80s, EVERY GREAT team had two GREAT players...thats not the case nowadays. When its Shaq AND Kobe vs. Duncan, and its a close series, theres no way I can come to a conclusion that kobe is on MJs level unless Duncan can be considered the best of all time as well. 

As much as we deny it, your like for kobe and my dislike for kobe is somehow effecting our opinion. 

With that said, I'll tell you exactly what I think of Kobe...
- Wicked jumpshot, a real nice ability to get in the lane, very athletic, a bit streaky on offense, good defender, clutch performer, but his biggest weakness is he allows himself to fade out of games so he can come back strong in the 4th. But if he was actually LEADING the team, theres no way he could fade out for that long in games, or else his team would fall behind. Its like hes using Shaq as a decoy. I'm not saying he cant carry a team, I'm saying he hasn't, and all the greatest players ever have carried their team. Until he does successfully, theres no way I can compare him to Jordan. 

I respect Kobe for putting aside his ego to be the 2nd option on the team and win titles, but I could name 15 players off the top in history that I'd consider the GOAT before I would kobe. 

but from what I understand, you think kobe is the best in the league and as good as Jordan in his prime and has nothing to prove.I think hes a young great player whos a notch under tracy mcgrady because he doesnt carry the load of a team. He probably lies somewhere inbetween, but this argument will never end... 

Heres my top 5 players in the NBA: 
1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. Garnett
4. McGrady
5. Kobe

Kobe is the 2nd youngest on this list, with potential to be the best in the league in a few years. Give him time, dont be so quick to slap the "goat" label on him until it can actually be justified.


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## sjfinest5 (Mar 27, 2003)

i dont think KOBE has control of that team, its still SHAQ'S team and it will be his until he retires. dont take me wron Kobe is a tremendous player(top five) but without Shaq that team would be sub .500, shaq demends so much attention that players like Fox,Fisher,and George get open looks, becasue u connot tell me that those players would be anywhere as good on any other teams.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>sjfinest5</b>!
> i dont think KOBE has control of that team, its still SHAQ'S team and it will be his until he retires. dont take me wron Kobe is a tremendous player(top five) but without Shaq that team would be sub .500, shaq demends so much attention that players like Fox,Fisher,and George get open looks, becasue u connot tell me that those players would be anywhere as good on any other teams.


Yep, I agree.

The team is built around Shaq. No one else besides these two can create their own shot.

You take Shaq away, and the Lakers will suck more than they would if Kobe was taken away. The team right now is built around Shaq, not Kobe.

In a few years...yes, the team will be built around Mr. #8 and it will be his team.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> 
> 
> Yep, I agree.
> ...


Reflects my views completely.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> theres no way you can see what I'm saying. It was a different situation in the 80s, EVERY GREAT team had two GREAT players...thats not the case nowadays. When its Shaq AND Kobe vs. Duncan, and its a close series, theres no way I can come to a conclusion that kobe is on MJs level unless Duncan can be considered the best of all time as well.
> 
> As much as we deny it, your like for kobe and my dislike for kobe is somehow effecting our opinion.
> ...



Stop these ramblings just say you don'tlike the kid rather than use your bias to justify these silly arguments. 

Did you watch game 5 tonight. Kobe carried the team like he's done all year. I'm a Laker fan I've seen all the games and its clear that Shaq no longer dominates like he's used to in the past couple seasons. Phil benched Shaq tonight saying afterward that no way the team would have had a chance with Shaq on the court tonight he didn't have any energy and effort. Thats telling when was the last time Phil said that about Shaq or even benched Shaq. He never benches Kobe in the big moments why because Kobe plays all out and his effort is never questioned. 

So Like I said and was shown evidence again tonight this is KObe's team now. Kobe spearheads the offense and gets the team going. 

I know I didn't see you say Kobe fades out of games to come on at the end. MJ lived off having big 4th quarters are you kidding. KObe does whats required he has big 1st 2nd and 3rd quarters whatever it takes. 

You on your idiotic list list KG and TMac better than KObe just because they don't play with Shaq as your basic justification. When Magic played with an aging Kareem it became his team just like that now with the Lakers and Kobe with Shaq. KG and TMac haven't made it out of the 1st rd. TMac choked a way a series his team should have won and you list him ahead of Kobe. The biggest game of Tmac's career and he scores 21 pts and he's better than Kobe. Kobe always brings it in the big moments. KG came up small in the Lakers series at the end also.

RIGHT NOW this is Kobe's team in the past it was clearly Shaq's but with the deteroiration of hs dominance on a consistent basis the Lakers rely on Kobe to come through this year. Thats the change that has occured and Shaq no longer fight the idea. 

As for your 80's claim only 2 teams had multiple superstars the Lakers and Celtics. The Sixers did for a short spell with Dr. J and Moses but otherwise it was just Dr. J. Thats why the Lakers routinely outplayed the Sixers as well as the Celtics beating the Sixers same with the Bucks who count Moncrief as their only real superstar, Sikma, Johnson, Bridgeman and Lanier were just good players durng that time. 

Kobe is hated the only reason he gets questioned is because he's threatening the throne of the BELOVED MJ , so some haters have to make up ill legitimate reason on why to say he has something to prove. If Tmac went to the Spurs he wouldn't have anything to prove because he's not hated basically because the experts favor the more complete Kobe. And you characterization of Kobe is stupid, Kobe averaged 30ppg and scored 40ppg for a whole month only 2 other legends did that WILT AND MJ Kobe's in that company for a reason.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> 
> 
> Yep, I agree.
> ...


I'll just quote this again because some people are too far up kobes a-hole to see his flaws and see the truth.

jazzy, I could argue this point forever, and I have argued it many times to people who see the flashy player and the clutch player and think thats all that counts. 

Lets just agree to disagree, because theres nothing you can say to change my mind. I know basketball very well, I've played competetive basketball for over 10 years, I know the ins and outs of it. 

Post players dominate basketball, shaq is one of the best (if not the best) center of all time...do the math

I'll stick with my top 5 as well, set in stone.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> I'll just quote this again because some people are too far up kobes a-hole to see his flaws and see the truth.
> ...


I played D-1 ball and played overseas so I know of what I speak. This argument isn't a referendum on post play versus perimeter play. You're trying to change the framework of this argument. I said in this specific example that Shaq's game is in decline and that Kobe's playing at a higher level RIGHT NOW. Anyone who's watched this series can see this. 

As a rule Having good post players does best having good perimeter players. But the game has changed the Big players are morphing into big perimeter players. And some examples of better small players than big players exist. 

For example. 

I'd take Magic and MJ before I'd take Hakeem, Patrick, David Robinson, Mourning in his prime, Parrish, Mchale . Magic and MJ had more of an effect playing the perimeter than those guys had posting up.

And your top 5 is still bogus. I laugh at people who discount players who've actually accomplished things for players who've done nothing. Tmac and KG for instance people always say they don't have enough help BUT Tmac had enough help to be up 3-1 and a game on his home court to close then he fails scores 21 pts and people say OH he didn't have enough help but were giving him praise when they were up 3-1. Can't go both ways.Kobe's a much more accomplished player than KG and TMac and has better numbers in some catergories for his career but because the old forever underdog thinking is they don't have enough help. Give me a break. 

NO one considers Dominique a better player than Bird and its because of the fact that Birds teams won.


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## Vivor (Dec 2, 2002)

Let's see now since it's Kobe's team if they win the championship?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I guess the Kobester will get to prove it this season, eh?


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## City_Dawg (Jul 25, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> I guess the Kobester will get to prove it this season, eh?


He'll have to

Shoot, if the lakers lose thier first preseason game, the sports world will declare-

LOOK AT YOU NOW, YOU CAN'T WIN WITHOUT SHAQ YOU HOMEWRECKER...BUY OUR NEWSPAPERS PLEASE!!!!!


And enough with this "who's team is it" garbage, that the reason all this nonsense started on the first place. From what i saw in the finals Shaq and Kobe mean nothin if the other guys cant do squat, Shaq and Kobe will get them to the door, but the rollplayers will push them through the door to he promiseland.

Its a TEAM, 'member?

So we better hope Kobe AND these other cats can get it together


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## hotel312 (Jul 13, 2004)

*jazzy1*

*edited, try again without the insults*


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## Hov (Aug 12, 2003)

*Re: jazzy1*



> Originally posted by <b>hotel312</b>!
> *edited, try again without the insults*


Go root for the Heat.

*True* Laker fans know what Kobe is capable of.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

psssh. This is obviously Medvedenko's team.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: jazzy1*



> Originally posted by <b>hotel312</b>!
> *edited, try again without the insults*


I'm shocked you have a 1 star rating.


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

Lakers are Vlades' Team.


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## SoCalfan21 (Jul 19, 2004)

The mans right.....not about him being the lakers #1 guy.....but the guy is a B-B-B-B-Beast


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