# The Third Best Point Guard of All Time



## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

It's pretty clear that Magic is the best. I don't see how or why anyone would try and dispute that. But after him it gets a little shady. Who is the best after him? John Stockton and his longevity? Isiah Thomas and his Bad Boys days? Cousey? Nash?

Discuss.

Edit: I changed the thread title to disinclude Oscar seeing as everyone here (including myself) sees him as a superior player to everyone else sans Magic. So now we're talking about the *third* best point guard of all time.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: The Second Best Point Guard of All Time*

Gotta throw Oscar Robertson into the discussion.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: The Second Best Point Guard of All Time*

Great question, Guys that come to mind right off the bat are, Tiny, Frazier, Zeke, Stockton, Payton, Nash, Kidd, KJ, very tough to pick a number two out of that group.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: The Second Best Point Guard of All Time*



Basel said:


> Gotta throw Oscar Robertson into the discussion.


Yeah Oscar is probably the correct choice.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: The Second Best Point Guard of All Time*

I disincluded Oscar since I'm not really sure if he was a pure point. I didn't get the chance to watch him play and I've seen people call him a combo guard so I just left him out of the discussion. He'd pretty clearly be the number two if included, but for the sake of discussion let's omit him.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: The Second Best Point Guard of All Time*

I'd rather not. Oscar was the Royals' lead guard, and certainly the guy that ran Milwaukee's offense.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

*Re: The Second Best Point Guard of All Time*

Oscar was a point guard. You can pretend that he wasn't, but it doesn't change the fact that he was. However I'd guess that his numbers had something to do with the incredible pace at which the game was played during his era. Still noone else did what he did, pace or not.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

*Re: The Second Best Point Guard of All Time*

I agree that Oscar was a true point guard and would like to add that he could well be considered #1 in Magic's stead.

For those not familiar with adjusting statlines across eras, Oscar would not have averaged a triple double if the game was played at today's pace. His line during his prime might have gone something like 25/7/10. This would make him completely unique; a better scorer and defender than Magic and a much better passer than LeBron.

Of course, there is no way of knowing for sure how he would have fared in today's game, that is simply a rough conversion of his statline from the 60's to the post 2005 game pace.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

*Re: The Second Best Point Guard of All Time*



JPSeraph said:


> I agree that Oscar was a true point guard and would like to add that he could well be considered #1 in Magic's stead.


unless leading your team to 5 titles counts for something



> For those not familiar with adjusting statlines across eras, Oscar would not have averaged a triple double if the game was played at today's pace. His line during his prime might have gone something like 25/7/10. This would make him completely unique; a better scorer and defender than Magic and a much better passer than LeBron.


we really dont know anything qualitative about Oscar's defensive prowess - as for scoring Im pretty sure Magic would have put up a few more ppg if his second best scoring option was Jack Twyman and not Kareem



> Of course, there is no way of knowing for sure how he would have fared in today's game, that is simply a rough conversion of his statline from the 60's to the post 2005 game pace.


I think he'd do just fine but yeah not quite so gaudy a stat-line


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: The Second Best Point Guard of All Time*

Big O might not of played with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, but he certainly did play with Lew Alcindor, and he won a championship as well.


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## ajax25 (Jul 2, 2010)

*Re: The Second Best Point Guard of All Time*

gotta go with my boy Stockton...I would even be willing to say hes a 1B...of course thats just my opinion


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

*Re: The Second Best Point Guard of All Time*

I never actually thought that Stockton was any better than Kevin Johnson myself. He would have to be the dirtiest point guard I ever saw play though. Doubtful that he'd be much in today's league where almost everything he did on defense is a foul. Of course it was also a foul when he did it, but they never called him for it.


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## ajax25 (Jul 2, 2010)

*Re: The Second Best Point Guard of All Time*

I think if Steve Nash can do what he does in todays league then Stockton would be able to in his prime hard to argue with the numbers though, I mean hes #1 in assists and steals all time...that puts him in consideration without a doubt, he was just such a smart player


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: The Second Best Point Guard of All Time*



ajax25 said:


> gotta go with my boy Stockton...I would even be willing to say hes a 1B...of course thats just my opinion


There's simply no way to argue that Stockton was anywhere near Magic's tier unless the debate stops at "thats just my opinion."


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

*Re: The Second Best Point Guard of All Time*



23AJ said:


> Big O might not of played with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, but he certainly did play with Lew Alcindor, and he won a championship as well.


I'm glad that you mentioned this as I'm sure many posters either forgot or were unaware! The '71 Bucks were an exceptional squad. If only Oscar had a little more left in his legs at that stage of his career...




e-monk said:


> unless leading your team to 5 titles counts for something


It does - especially if we're focusing on accomplishments - but Magic's five rings to Oscar's one have more to do with his superior teams than with his superior play. Oscar, when teamed with a young Alcindor (Jabbar prior to conversion) in his twilight years, led one of the greatest teams of all-time - arguably greater than any single Lakers team led by Magic (see what 23AJ posted above.)




> we really dont know anything qualitative about Oscar's defensive prowess - as for scoring Im pretty sure Magic would have put up a few more ppg if his second best scoring option was Jack Twyman and not Kareem


Magic's defense was generally quite poor, while Oscar was generally regarded as one of the superior perimeter defenders of his day. While it might be inappropriate to say that Oscar was a superior defender to a known defensive ace like Gary Payton (we certainly don't know that), it's safe to give him the advantage over a defensive misfit like Johnson.

Also, Magic's scoring did indeed increase when his team needed him to score more points, but not to a level that would have him anywhere in Oscar's league. Robertson was a superb post-up player and an excellent shooter from mid-range. Many regard him as the most complete basketball player prior to Michael Jordan (and some old timers will still tell you that Michael's only significant advantage over Oscar was his athleticism!)

By contrast, Magic was a competent post player due to his strength and a decent shooter from midrange and three point range. Where he really excelled, was as a playmaker on the drive. He was so dangerous that opponents generally sagged off of him on defense because it was more efficient to let him shoot open jumpers than to risk a drive and kick.

Magic was at his best in the open court and whenever the defense broke down. He was somewhat less effective in rigid half court scenarios. After all, if you think about it (or have noted the composition of most HOF Big Men's teams), it doesn't take a Hall of Fame point guard to make accurate post entry passes to a Hall of Fame post up player.

Overall, I think an era with wide open offenses and lots of transition (such as the 80's) might suit Magic over Oscar, but it's too close to call and they both deserve to be mentioned as possible #1 Point Guard of All Time.

As for who was simply a better scorer or defender, there isn't really much to debate.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

*Re: The Second Best Point Guard of All Time*

I think Paul will be number 2 by the end of his career.


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## jericho (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: The Second Best Point Guard of All Time*

I think Magic and Oscar are clearly 1-2 in whatever order. Jerry West should on the list of candidates for the next few spots.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: The Second Best Point Guard of All Time*

Wasn't Jerry West considered more of a SG?


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

*Re: The Second Best Point Guard of All Time*

West played roughly half of his career at each guard position, depending upon which the Lakers needed at that point. I suppose people might call him a combo guard today, but he's usually thought of as a two.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: The Second Best Point Guard of All Time*

Alright well seeing as you guys didn't read my post I'll just change the thread's title. Who is the best point guard after Magic/Oscar?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Jerry West. :bsmile:


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

E.H. Munro said:


> Jerry West. :bsmile:


:twoguns: You are the worst kind of person.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Isiah Thomas.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

Count me out on this one - too close to call!

After Magic and Oscar, here are 'the rest':
Player's I've seen enough to judge: John Stockton, Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, Chris Paul, Steve Nash
Honorable Mention: Kevin Johnson, Gary Payton, Deron Williams
Player's I have not seen enough to judge: Jerry West, Walt Frazier
Honorable Mention: Bob Cousy, Nate Archibald (pre-injury), Dennis Johnson
Well...something like that!

Agree with what was said above re: West's time at both SG and PG. I think he was more of a fulltime PG later in his career (and would likely play PG in today's league.)


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

John Stockton needs a little more love in this thread. He seems to be coming off as some kind of a hoax because of his offensive system or Karl Malone or the era of physicality in the NBA he played in. He is the absolute definition of what a PG should be. He ran the offense his coach implemented to perfection and commanded and lead his team on both sides of the court. The Stockton/Malone combo seems to detract somehow from Stockton's play when in fact Karl Malone's position on the points board should count heavily for Stockton. I understand he wasn't the scorer that others mentioned were, but he nearly had a 20,000 point career! That doesn't happen unless you can put the ball in the bucket. He only had 3 incomplete seasons in a 19 year career.

15806 assists
3265 steals
1504 games


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Geaux Tigers said:


> John Stockton needs a little more love in this thread. He seems to be coming off as some kind of a hoax because of his offensive system or Karl Malone or the era of physicality in the NBA he played in. He is the absolute definition of what a PG should be. He ran the offense his coach implemented to perfection and commanded and lead his team on both sides of the court. The Stockton/Malone combo seems to detract somehow from Stockton's play when in fact Karl Malone's position on the points board should count heavily for Stockton. I understand he wasn't the scorer that others mentioned were, but he nearly had a 20,000 point career! That doesn't happen unless you can put the ball in the bucket. He only had 3 incomplete seasons in a 19 year career.
> 
> 15806 assists
> 3265 steals
> 1504 games


my problem with placing stockton 3rd is at his best he wasn't better than kevin johnson , or isiah thomas gary payton or jason kidd, at their best they were clearly better than him at his best.

longevity means something, but if i needed a win and i could have any pg outside of big O and magic , there are about 10 point guards i'd pick in front of stockton


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Considering ALL factors (peak play, accomplishments, era, longevity), the fourth (if ranking West as a PG) all time best PG has to be either Cousy or Thomas.


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

It's not very clear at all that Magic is the best. Oscar has a pretty damn good case.


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

Kidd would be approaching Stockton's assists record if he ever played with a Malone/Kemp/Stoudemire type player. (not counting Dirk since Kidd has clearly been past his prime since he's been in Dallas)

In Phoenix his leading scorers were Rex Chapman one year, post-injury Tom Gugliotta, Clifford Robinson, and Shawn Marion in his 2nd season in the NBA. In New Jersey they were Van Horn, Kidd himself, Jefferson (and nearly all of Jefferson and Martin's points came directly from Kidd early in their careers), and Carter (post-microfracture). Carter was the only one to average more than 19ppg as his team's leading scorer.

What Kidd has done without playing with another great player or even a great scorer (unless you count Vince) is remarkable.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

That simply isn't a very good argument because it fails to recognize that you don't generate assists by simply playing with another player who scores a lot. You get assists by playing with players who take the types of shots you are awarded assists for and by playing in systems which generate assists. If you look at Utah for example you can't help noticing that Stockton isn't the only guy who got a lot of assists playing for Jerry Sloan. His offense has a lot of motion designed to create easy jump shots and you get a lot of assists by playing for teams that either 1) run for easy baskets or 2) take a lot of jump shots created in the flow of an offense. The point guard stands at the arc dribbling, shooters runs motion, shooter gets open. Point guards throws him the ball and if he hits the shot it's an assist.

Everyone who ever played for the Jazz got assists just like that and so did Kidd when he played for the Nets, the motion offense isn't identical, but the concepts are exactly the same and the Nets were far more of a transition team than the Jazz usually were. He was getting assists exactly like Stockton, but with less emphasis on the P&R. Of course Stockton is just better than him at the P&R too. The other way to get a lot of assists is to pass the ball to a guy who has a layup, especially in transition. Kidd has played on exactly the types of teams which generate a lot of assists for his entire career.


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

Of course he played on teams suited to his playing style, but if he had bigs that could score around the basket like Malone, Stoudemire, or Kemp, he'd have a ton more assists. Almost every great point guard has also had a great big man to play with. Kidd never did until he got to Dallas the 2nd time.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

At the PG position, the habitually overrated guys are always the ones who looked the prettiest on the court (Isaiah, Cousy) and the underrated guys are the ones who didn't (Mark Price, Gary Payton). My top 5 tiers go something like this:

*Tier 1*
1) Magic
2) Oscar

*Tier 2*
3) West

*Tier 3*
4) Payton
5) Stockton

*Tier 4*
6) Jason Kidd
7) Isaiah Thomas
8) Walt Frazier
9) Kevin Johnson
10) Tiny Archibald
11) Steve Nash
12) Dennis Johnson
13) Mark Price

*Tier 5*
14) Bob Cousy
15) Chauncey Billups
16) Gus Williams
17) Tim Hardaway

The 3rd spot is reserved for Chris Paul eventually if he continues at his current pace or improves. If his career ended today, I have him 12th. The 6th tier gets a little murkier with the likes of Cassell, Starbury, Francis, Porter, Mookie, and Lenny in the mix.

Deron Williams, Derrick Rose, John Wall, Russell Westbrook, and possibly even Rajon Rondo also have good chances at cracking the top 5 tiers depending on how their careers play out.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

RollWithEm said:


> At the PG position, the habitually overrated guys are always the ones who looked the prettiest on the court (Isaiah, Cousy) and the underrated guys are the ones who didn't (Mark Price, Gary Payton). My top 5 tiers go something like this:
> 
> *Tier 1*
> 1) Magic
> ...


I don't necessarily have a problem with your rankings as far as who is ahead of who, but I don't see why West is a tier below Oscar. I wasn't alive when they played but I've always been under the assumption that they were relatively close.


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

I go with John Stockton. I mean being the all-time leader in assist and steals gotta count for something espically among point guard. Plus didn't he barely miss games playing almost 20 seasons? He averaged well over 10 assist a game in seasons where he barely missed games...that impressive.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

VanillaPrice said:


> I don't necessarily have a problem with your rankings as far as who is ahead of who, but I don't see why West is a tier below Oscar. I wasn't alive when they played but I've always been under the assumption that they were relatively close.


You're right. I kinda spit that list out without thinking to see if it would generate some conversation, but it killed the thread instead! Here's my new updated list. I change my mind on this stuff at least a couple time a week:

*Tier 1*
1) Magic Johnson
2) Jerry West
3) Oscar Robertson

*Tier 2*
4) Isaiah Thomas
5) Gary Payton
6) John Stockton

*Tier 3*
7) Jason Kidd
8) Walt Frazier
9) Kevin Johnson
10) Steve Nash
11) Tiny Archibald
12) Dennis Johnson
13) Bob Cousy

*Tier 4*
14) Mark Price
15) Chauncey Billups
16) Gus Williams
17) Tim Hardaway


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

Oscar was one of the best pg but not number 1 greatest pg of all times. Magic with 5 rings, 3 time finals mvp, 3 time regular season mvp. And lets not forget Magic won his first ring, his first finals mvp as a freaking rookie. Oscar was great like i said but no way is he ahead of Magic as number 1 best pg of all times. Yea Magic had Kareem but Oscar won his first ring with a prime 23 years old Kareem.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> I go with John Stockton. I mean being the all-time leader in assist and steals gotta count for something espically among point guard. Plus didn't he barely miss games playing almost 20 seasons? He averaged well over 10 assist a game in seasons where he barely missed games...that impressive.


^^^Thats all well and good but no way he's ahead of Magic, Oscar


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

rayz789 said:


> Oscar was one of the best pg but not number 1 greatest pg of all times. Magic with 5 rings, 3 time finals mvp, 3 time regular season mvp. And lets not forget Magic won his first ring, his first finals mvp as a freaking rookie. Oscar was great like i said but no way is he ahead of Magic as number 1 best pg of all times. Yea Magic had Kareem but Oscar won his first ring with a prime 23 years old Kareem.


No one in this thread have out right said that Oscar was the superior point guard, a few hinted at it being close, but as far as I can tell everyone here is on the same page regarding Magic.

This thread is more about the other guys, like Kidd, Stockton, Payton, Nash, Thomas ect.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

GrandKenyon6 said:


> It's not very clear at all that Magic is the best. Oscar has a pretty damn good case.


mg:It's very clear that Magic is ahead and shoulder then every other great pgs of all times. 5 rings, 3 finals mvp, 3 regular season mvp. And when he won his first ring and first finals mvp was when he was a freaking rookie. <<<<No other pgs can compete that. And lets not forget Oscar won his first ring with a 23 year better dominate center in Kareem while Magic won rings with Kareem when Kareem was in his mid 30's and wasnt as dominate as he was when he was younger as the bucks.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

VanillaPrice said:


> No one in this thread have out right said that Oscar was the superior point guard, a few hinted at it being close, but as far as I can tell everyone here is on the same page regarding Magic.
> 
> This thread is more about the other guys, like Kidd, Stockton, Payton, Nash, Thomas ect.


My top 3 pg of all times are


1. Magic

2. Oscar

3 (imo) Thomas


I dont know about West cause West was really a sg.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

rayz789 said:


> My top 3 pg of all times are
> 
> 
> 1. Magic
> ...


For the sake of discussion, what makes Isiah Thomas a better player than say, Gary Payton, Jason Kidd or Steve Nash?


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

RollWithEm said:


> You're right. I kinda spit that list out without thinking to see if it would generate some conversation, but it killed the thread instead! Here's my new updated list. I change my mind on this stuff at least a couple time a week:
> 
> *Tier 1*
> 1) Magic Johnson
> ...


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

VanillaPrice said:


> For the sake of discussion, what makes Isiah Thomas a better player than say, Gary Payton, Jason Kidd or Steve Nash?


Whats wrong with that? He won 2 rings,1 finals mvp. He can score, get steals and can be a playmaker. He was all nba 3 times as first. Again i dont know whats wrong with him being number 3?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I don't really have a preference when it comes to those four guys, but I'll tackle it anyway for the sake of discussion.

Steve Nash is/was a significantly better offensive player than Isaiah Thomas is just about every sense of the word. Nash is a far better play maker and is arguably the best shooter from the position in the history of the league. This is obvious simply from watching tape, but from a statistical standpoint the Nash led Suns are among the finest offensive squads in the history of the league, with Steve throwing up an absurd 50/40/90 for the duration of that run. Isiah can't touch that kind of offensive efficiency.

Thomas makes up ground defensively, but if we're looking at this objectively then I think we can all agree that defense from a point guard isn't nearly as important as running an offense.

Thomas does have titles, but you can't really put all of the Suns' shortcomings on Stevie's shoulders, he played pretty remarkably for the majority of his post season career. He ran into some extremely talented Spurs/Lakers teams, and was without Amar'e (and Kurt Thomas) for the '06 WCF against the Mavs. Had that team been healthy they probably would have been the favorites to win it all.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

VanillaPrice said:


> For the sake of discussion, what makes Isiah Thomas a better player than say, Gary Payton, Jason Kidd or *Steve Nash*?


Wtf? LMFAO!


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Isaiah has one finals MVP by the way, Joe Dumars was the recipient of the other.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

VanillaPrice said:


> I don't really have a preference when it comes to those four guys, but I'll tackle it anyway for the sake of discussion.
> 
> Steve Nash is/was a significantly better offensive player than Isaiah Thomas is just about every sense of the word. Nash is a far better play maker and is arguably the best shooter from the position in the history of the league. This is obvious simply from watching tape, but from a statistical standpoint the Nash led Suns are among the finest offensive squads in the history of the league, with Steve throwing up an absurd 50/40/90 for the duration of that run. Isiah can't touch that kind of offensive efficiency.
> 
> ...


Stop right there man. No way in the world is Nash a better pg then Thomas. Thomas was tougher and was a better defender. The shooting and the assist goes to nash but come on man for real. Nash did great for the suns but no excuse of the reason the suns couldnt make it to the finals cause of lakers/spurs. Thomas piston pass by pippen/jordan bulls, Bird celtics and Magic lakers to win rings lol come on man.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

VanillaPrice said:


> Isaiah has one finals MVP by the way, Joe Dumars was the recipient of the other.


And? Nash had Amare but still couldnt make it to the finals.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

rayz789 said:


> Stop right there man. No way in the world is Nash a better pg then Thomas. Thomas was tougher and was a better defender. The shooting and the assist goes to nash but come on man for real. Nash did great for the suns but no excuse of the reason the suns couldnt make it to the finals cause of lakers/spurs. Thomas piston pass by pippen/jordan bulls, Bird celtics and Magic lakers to win rings lol come on man.


Why? "Tougher" doesn't necessarily make someone better at playing basketball. Ben Wallace is much, much, tougher than Dirk Nowitzki but no one in their right mind would take the former if starting a franchise. Better defender? Sure. I already touched on that though, and defense from a point guard isn't nearly as important as defense from say, a center or a power forward. A point guard's role on the basketball court is to orchestrate the offense, and Steve Nash simply orchestrated a better offense than Isaiah Thomas.

The Suns didn't make the finals in 2006 because Nash's second best player was out for the entire year (and his replacement, but whatever). You wouldn't fault Jordan for failing if Pippen was injured, would you? And I would argue that the 2007 finals were played in the WC semies between the Spurs and the Suns, and if the Suns don't get boned by bullshit suspensions then they probably walk away with that title as well.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

VanillaPrice said:


> Why? "Tougher" doesn't necessarily make someone better at playing basketball. Ben Wallace is much, much, tougher than Dirk Nowitzki but no one in their right mind would take the former if starting a franchise. Better defender? Sure. I already touched on that though, and defense from a point guard isn't nearly as important as defense from say, a center or a power forward. A point guard's role on the basketball court is to orchestrate the offense, and Steve Nash simply orchestrated a better offense than Isaiah Thomas.
> 
> The Suns didn't make the finals in 2006 because Nash's second best player was out for the entire year (and his replacement, but whatever). You wouldn't fault Jordan for failing if Pippen was injured, would you? And I would argue that the 2007 finals were played in the WC semies between the Spurs and the Suns, and if the Suns don't get boned by bullshit suspensions then they probably walk away with that title as well.


Wtf? Are you comparing Ben Wallace tougher then Dirk then Thomas tougher then Nash? You growing straws big times. Dude like i said Nash is a better shooter (Thomas is not that far off cause he was a very good shooter himself) and yea Nash is a better in assist (Thomas not that far off considering he can pass very well and his career assist stats proves it) What you forgot to mention back in 06, Nash suns without Amare had an easy road to get to the wcf by beating 7th seed lakers (kobe was basically by himself with no help) and no experience clippers except old fart ring veteran cassell.) Nash had amare in 05 when amare was a man beast but guess what happen? lost to the spurs in 5 in the wcf. And btw the pistons elminated the bulls twice in 89 and then in 90 so pippen was injured in those 2 years? lol come on man.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

rayz789 said:


> Wtf? Are you comparing Ben Wallace tougher then Dirk then Thomas tougher then Nash? You growing straws big times. Dude like i said Nash is a better shooter (Thomas is not that far off cause he was a very good shooter himself) and yea Nash is a better in assist (Thomas not that far off considering he can pass very well and his career assist stats proves it) What you forgot to mention back in 06, Nash suns without Amare had an easy road to get to the wcf by beating 7th seed lakers (kobe was basically by himself with no help) and no experience clippers except old fart ring veteran cassell.) Nash had amare in 05 when amare was a man beast but guess what happen? lost to the spurs in 5 in the wcf. And btw the pistons elminated the bulls twice in 89 and then in 90 so pippen was injured in those 2 years? lol come on man.


I don't even know what you're trying to say. You said that Isaiah Thomas was a "tougher" player than Steve Nash, I stated that it didn't matter how "tough" a player was, and used the Ben Wallace/Dirk analogy to illustrate that. Are you following me or do I need to go slower?

Nash was a far better shooter. Thomas was a career 45/29/76 guy on a mediocre .512 TS%. That is nothing special. Nash, on the other hand, boasts career averages of 49/43/90 (5 years of 50/40/90) with an exceptional .60 TS% and .555 EFG%. That is truly remarkable shooting.

Steve has had six seasons of + 10.5 assists, Isaiah had three. Thomas was certainly an above average facilitator, but again I would give Stevie the edge here. Since Jordan retired, the only other player that I will safely say was on par with Nash as a playmaker was Jason Kidd. Nobody runs the pick 'n roll better than him, nobody hits his shooters better, and almost nobody runs a prettier fast break. The man is a fantastic playmaker, and at his peak I would easily take him over Thomas.

It didn't matter who Kobe's teammates were in 2006, he was going to give any team in the league a fight by himself. That was Bryant at his apex it's possible that we never see another player with that kind of offensive arsenal again. Keep in mind this was the season where he dropped 81 on Toronto, outscored Dallas single handily, and put together a five game stretch of 50+ games. This was not your run of the mill superstar. That Elton Brand/Sam Cassel Clippers team wasn't anything to scoff at either. They had a pretty good year.

The '05 Suns made the WCF and lost to the best Spurs team of all time. There isn't a whole lot of shame in that. They didn't have a defensive anchor or the team rebounding to really compete with Timmy and the Spurs. I'd say losing to a top ten player ever playing on the best of his four championship teams is a pretty respectable way to go out. Keep in mind that it was Stevie that dropped 39/9/12 (and had another 40 point outing earlier in the series) in game six of the conference semis against the Mavs just a round prior. Dude was playing to his full ability.

Again, you misunderstood what I said. You wouldn't fault a batman (Duncan, Bird, or in this case, Jordan) for faltering in the playoffs if his robin (Ginobli, Mchale, or Pippen) was unable to play. The same rule exists with Nash and Amar'e.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

VanillaPrice said:


> I don't even know what you're trying to say. You said that Isaiah Thomas was a "tougher" player than Steve Nash, I stated that it didn't matter how "tough" a player was, and used the Ben Wallace/Dirk analogy to illustrate that. Are you following me or do I need to go slower?
> 
> Nash was a far better shooter. Thomas was a career 45/29/76 guy on a mediocre .512 TS%. That is nothing special. Nash, on the other hand, boasts career averages of 49/43/90 (5 years of 50/40/90) with an exceptional .60 TS% and .555 EFG%. That is truly remarkable shooting.
> 
> ...


First off the spurs the best team of all times? lol ummm ok. Look here mr know it all whoever actually think Nash is a better pg then a prime Thomas is out of their mind and should watch MORE and i mean MUCH MORE of Thomas videos in his prime days. Again Nash is the better shooter and better in the assist but dont sit there with your messed up chair and tell me Thomas cant put up points. Isiah can score and can give out the assist. Nash was basically 1 dimensional cause he's all offense but freaking no defense. Nash defense is just flat out terrible. I bet i can play better d then Nash. Hell anybody here that plays basketball can play better d then Nash. <<<Am i going overboard? Likely yes but thats how bad nash is on defense. Thomas is old school in the 80's in which he was mean, tough and a very good scorer when he needs to be. If i want to have a pg that can give me open looks alot of times then i'll pick nash but if i want a pg that can score, assist and actually play defense and have expereince in winning rings then hell yeah i'll pick thomas. Thomas did very well guarding Magic. Now tell me mr know it all you think Nash would play atleast ok d on Magic? lol. Learn more of the players in the 80's alot and then come back to argue better ok?


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

Lmfao @ Nash is a better pg then Thomas. Whats next Pierce is a better sf and a better celtics then legend Bird? lol.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

VanillaPrice said:


> I don't really have a preference when it comes to those four guys, but I'll tackle it anyway for the sake of discussion.
> 
> Steve Nash is/was a significantly better offensive player than Isaiah Thomas is just about every sense of the word. Nash is a far better play maker and is arguably the best shooter from the position in the history of the league. This is obvious simply from watching tape, but from a statistical standpoint the Nash led Suns are among the finest offensive squads in the history of the league, with Steve throwing up an absurd 50/40/90 for the duration of that run. Isiah can't touch that kind of offensive efficiency.
> 
> ...


I think you have to reconsider Nash's lack of onball skills and IQ in an era where the P&R is so prevalent. Not being able to stop that is a death sentence. 

Proper coverage is a collective effort between the bigs and the point guard, and a lot of pain can be alleviated if the PG isn't someone almost anyone can get by anytime they want, it puts enough pressure on the big to be perfect that I don't think it's something you can just throw out like that.

Consider that Isiah isn't just adequate but one of the best defenders ever at his position and he more than makes up ground, he probably wins out. Nash is a better and more efficient offensive player, but Isiah was hardly a slouch at an all-star level as a passer and scorer every year of his prime. He didn't take it otherworldly like Nash, but he also didn't allow otherworldly stats put up against him.

Nash has incredible numbers but it's not enough for me to prefer him on my team over a lot of guys because of defense.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

I think Clyde aint getting the love he deserves here - I'd argue the logo fucntioned as an SG in most (but not all) of his best seasons and put Clyde at #3 behind Magic and O - he has all the accomplishments of Zeke, best player on two title teams (ok 'should' have been finals MVP because hobbling around on one leg and making a jumper or two before sitting back on the bench may well be inspirational but it aint the same as dropping 36pts 19 assists and 5 steals on Jerry West)

just as good defensely as Payton or Kidd, better offensively than Kidd, maybe comparable to Payton - I think the O/D combo puts him ahead of Stockton, Kidd, Nash and neck and neck with Payton for the #3a/b spot just slightly ahead of Zeke in the 4 spot


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

West's production as a point guard is pretty similar to his production as a SG, probably because he was the same person and the same player all along. Playing a different role seems to have had remarkably little impact on the bottom line.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

West was a 4-5 assist a game guard for his first 5 seasons when he was a dynamic 28-30ppg scorer and a 9 assist a game player in his last 3 full seasons as a less dynamic 20-25 ppg scorer


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Dre said:


> I think you have to reconsider Nash's lack of onball skills and IQ in an era where the P&R is so prevalent. Not being able to stop that is a death sentence.
> 
> Proper coverage is a collective effort between the bigs and the point guard, and a lot of pain can be alleviated if the PG isn't someone almost anyone can get by anytime they want, it puts enough pressure on the big to be perfect that I don't think it's something you can just throw out like that.
> 
> ...


Is weak point guard defense really a death sentence though? Look at the champions since MJ retired -

Lakers - '00, '01, '02, '09, '10 all led by a mediocre to terrible defensive point in Fisher.
Spurs - '03, '05, '07, Parker was great (especially in '05 and even moreso in '07) but he was never a standout defender. Average at best.
Pistons - '04, I'll give you Billups on that one.
Heat - '06, Payton/Williams combo was awful.
Mavs - '11, Kidd was great against Kobe/Wade/'Bron but let's not pretend like he was going to be able to stop any quick lead guards off the dribble.
Celtics - '08, Rondo is great at playing the passing lanes but he hadn't turned into the all star Rajon of today at that point.

Nash's biggest problem defensively was that he never had a big that could compensate for his deficiencies (like a Duncan or a KG) and that's on the management more than anyone else. He more than fulfilled his role by orchestrating arguably the best offense of all time, and scoring at a historic level efficiency wise in the process. If I'm trying to look for the perfect point guard I'm looking at ability to run an offense, space the floor, and come through in the clutch before I even consider looking at man on man defense.

Isaiah sure as hell isn't a slouch, he's one of the best players to ever play the position. I'm just arguing that he's in a tier with Nash, (and Kidd/Payton) and not far and away the best after Magic and Oscar.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I hear what you're saying, but conversely to the point about not needing an all world defensive point guard, most champions didn't have all world point guards period. 

That said, when it comes to carte blanche of picking one, I'm going to go with the one that was comparable offensively but not a complete liability on the other half of the court.

And you talk about it being on management, but isn't it an all time great's responsibility to defy to the best of his ability what management put around him? I figure if Nash didn't defend Parker like a 45 year old man one of the most remarkable offenses in history would've got by the Spurs at least once. The ability to play competent defense was in Nash's grasp but he never did it, so in effect his historical offensive achievements were in spite of allowing the opposition to do whatever they want...and in this case it was the catalyst Tony Parker.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Dre said:


> I hear what you're saying, but conversely to the point about not needing an all world defensive point guard, most champions didn't have all world point guards period.
> 
> That said, when it comes to carte blanche of picking one, I'm going to go with the one that was comparable offensively but not a complete liability on the other half of the court.
> 
> And you talk about it being on management, but isn't it an all time great's responsibility to defy to the best of his ability what management put around him? I figure if Nash didn't defend Parker like a 45 year old man one of the most remarkable offenses in history would've got by the Spurs at least once. The ability to play competent defense was in Nash's grasp but he never did it, so in effect his historical offensive achievements were in spite of allowing the opposition to do whatever they want...and in this case it was the catalyst Tony Parker.


True.

He did get by the Spurs. The Suns swept the Spurs in 2009. And they probably would have beaten them in '07 too, if suspensions hadn't played a major role. But if we're talking about all time greats and their ability to "defy" then why are you ignoring the all time great that played for San Antonio? Tim Duncan is better than any player mentioned in this thread except for Magic, and he had the benefit of fantastic management. It's not like Tony Parker was the sole (or even primary) reason why the Spurs generally beat the Suns back in the day. It was number 21 who just so happens to be a top eight or so player of all time.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I didn't consider anything past the point guard slot because it's about the point guards in this thread

And if the NBA had to put it on a headline it would be Nash vs. Duncan


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*nash vs. thomas*

if you are talking about best or among the best at a position.

being the best player on a title winning team that has to go through the bulls and lakers is a big deal ....stopping a laker threepeat , and holding off the bulls dynasty .

when comparing their accomplishments its a guy who was the best player on a 2 time champion vs. a guy who was the best guy on a couple of teams that lost in the conf. finals.

if you are just comparing relative abilities, nash is the better playmaker, shooter , but thomas is clearly the better scorer and is more clutch , while being the better defender, thomas is a very good playmaker( 5th all time in ast per game nash is 9th) and a good shooter, nash has his moments scoring and clutchwise, nash is/was generally a poor defender, thomas is clearly a level above.

there is robertson and magic on a level by themselves, absolute legends

next you have thomas , west , guys who have been the best players on title winning teams, legit franchise players in every sense of the word

then you have guys like 
nash payton, kidd kj, frazier, stockton cousy dj, billups chris paul deron williams,derrick rose lenny wilkens guy who have close to winning as top guys or have won as 2nd bananas , mvp's or mvp candidates


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Frazier was the best player on two title teams and schooled West (albeit an older version) head to head


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: nash vs. thomas*



Da Grinch said:


> if you are talking about best or among the best at a position.
> 
> being the best player on a title winning team that has to go through the bulls and lakers is a big deal ....stopping a laker threepeat , and holding off the bulls dynasty .
> 
> ...


Thomas' feats are certainly impressive, but if you switch Nash with Isaiah on the '05 - '09 Suns do you really see them winning it all even once? I don't. 

Isaiah certainly was not the better scorer. He scored in more volume throughout his prime, but his efficiency was relatively pedestrian whereas Stevie is arguably the most efficient scorer ever. It's not really a debate. I'd also like to hear an argument as to why Thomas is considered the superior clutch player, Nash has certainly had his moments in that regard.

Zeke is the better defender and it's not even close. That's really the only area where he makes up significant ground, but as I stated before, defense from a point guard isn't necessarily that important. It's much more important for a point guard to be able to run an offense, control the tempo, and space the floor. And in my opinion Nash holds a small but noticeable edge in all of those areas.

I would say that Magic is in his own tier when talking about point guards. We're talking about a player that has as strong case for being considered the best player of all time. Oscar is great, but he's not touching that pantheon of greatness.

And what is really separating Jerry West and Oscar Robertson? I'm not going to argue which of the two was better because in my opinion it's really close, but there certainly shouldn't be an entire tier between them. That's crazy.

I think a good list would look something like this - 

*Tier One*
1.) Magic Johnson

*Tier Two*
2.) Oscar Robertson
3.) Jerry West (if we're calling him a point guard, I've always thought of him as a lead two guard ala Dwyane Wade)

*Tier Three*
Nash, Thomas, Payton, Kidd, Stockton all in some order. I definitely think that Stockton is the worst of the group though. We all saw what Payton did to him in '96.

Derrick Rose, Chris Paul, and _possibly_ Deron Williams may sneak into that third tier by the time it's all said and done.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

O's game was more well rounded than West - he holds the edge not just in rebounding and assists (dude averaged a triple dub for 3.5 seasons) but also in his offensive versatility - West had more range (but pre 3pt arc who cares? Imagine Jerry with the ability to ring up 3s and were talking about something different I guess) Oscar had a good jump shot but he also could and frequently did post up his opponents (ala Magic or Payton)


as for Nash's efficiency? big deal - same situation as Stockton, the focus is on feeding another scorer (or two)and the defense is more interested in defending against the pass which they figure will hurt them more - guy's never been a volume scorer and has never lead his team in scoring


(and you're all still sleeping on Clyde)


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

e-monk said:


> O's game was more well rounded than West - he holds the edge not just in rebounding and assists (dude averaged a triple dub for 3.5 seasons) but also in his offensive versatility - West had more range (but pre 3pt arc who cares? Imagine Jerry with the ability to ring up 3s and were talking about something different I guess) Oscar had a good jump shot but he also could and frequently did post up his opponents (ala Magic or Payton)
> 
> 
> (and you're all still sleeping on Clyde)


Robertson also missed the post season entirely for three consecutive seasons during his prime. That's a pretty huge black mark on his resume (cough Kevin Garnett cough) and the fact that West was routinely putting up long playoff runs with great numbers closes the gap. I have no doubt that Oscar was a better regular season player, (much like Wilt, ironically enough) but his playoff resume is lacking to say the least. Oscar's numbers (and efficiency) dips across the board in the post season, where as Jerry's largely stay the same with the exception of increased scoring output.

Oscar could post up players because he was and is considered to be the first "big" guard. He was 6'5 205 pound point guard, and was being defended by people five inches shorter and 20 pounds lighter on a consistent basis. Of course he posted up the opposition when he had that much of an athletic and size advantage. Put him in today's league and that facet of his game may not be neutralized, but it would surely be watered down. Kind of like Wilt in the other thread.

Again, I'm not trying to put West on a pedestal here, and I'm not saying that he was definitely better than Oscar, but it's definitely a close call. I'd put them both comfortably in the top 10-15 players of all time, probably like 11 and 12.

All 50/40/90 for five seasons gets is "big deal"? That's ridiculous. It's not like he was putting up 10 PPG either, 17-19 isn't anything to scoff at.

I may be sleeping on Clyde, but that has more to do with a lack of real knowledge on him than anything else. Enlighten me.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

e-monk said:


> Frazier was the best player on two title teams and schooled West (albeit an older version) head to head


reed was generally considered the best knick of all time before ewing...he was still in his prime for the 1st title team , but i'll grant you the 2nd one...but even so i kind of look at him as a kind of billups-like player who won with an ensemble cast, i can say i could see an easy argument made to put him with thomas and west , i just have frazier just below them.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Da Grinch said:


> reed was generally considered the best knick of all time before ewing...he was still in his prime for the 1st title team , but i'll grant you the 2nd one...but even so i kind of look at him as a kind of billups-like player who won with an ensemble cast, i can say i could see an easy argument made to put him with thomas and west , i just have frazier just below them.


first title run game 7 Reed spent most of the game (despite his notorious appearance at the start) on the bench while Frazier hung 36pts 19 assists and 5 steals on Jerry West

also Zeke (not the one from cabin creek - I see you have two zekes there) could just easily fit that Billups description with those bad boys teams


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

VanillaPrice said:


> Robertson also missed the post season entirely for three consecutive seasons during his prime. That's a pretty huge black mark on his resume (cough Kevin Garnett cough) and the fact that West was routinely putting up long playoff runs with great numbers closes the gap. I have no doubt that Oscar was a better regular season player, (much like Wilt, ironically enough) but his playoff resume is lacking to say the least. Oscar's numbers (and efficiency) dips across the board in the post season, where as Jerry's largely stay the same with the exception of increased scoring output.
> 
> Oscar could post up players because he was and is considered to be the first "big" guard. He was 6'5 205 pound point guard, and was being defended by people five inches shorter and 20 pounds lighter on a consistent basis. Of course he posted up the opposition when he had that much of an athletic and size advantage. Put him in today's league and that facet of his game may not be neutralized, but it would surely be watered down. Kind of like Wilt in the other thread.


sorry, the average height from 1963 to 2000 has varied about 2" tops - common misconception - the real difference is mass, not height - the differences in diet and training routines leading to more muscle mass but also one wonders if the muscle bound athletes of today could keep up that old time mad dash pace




> All 50/40/90 for five seasons gets is "big deal"? That's ridiculous. It's not like he was putting up 10 PPG either, 17-19 isn't anything to scoff at.


no but it's not the 25ppg and 22ppg of the two guys ahead of him who are getting all the defensive attention - what Im saying is that it's easier to be efficient as the 2nd or 3rd guy which is what he was with Amare and Marion on those squads especially when teams are defending against your passing lanes more than your shot


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

e-monk said:


> sorry, the average height from 1963 to 2000 has varied about 2" tops - common misconception - the real difference is mass, not height - the differences in diet and training routines leading to more muscle mass but also one wonders if the muscle bound athletes of today could keep up that old time mad dash pace
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You honestly don't think that the players of today could keep up? Really?

Shawn Marion didn't get a whole lot of attention because Shawn Marion was never really a good basketball player. He was a great athlete, don't get me wrong, but pretending like you could plug Marion on any team in the league and still have him produce 22 PPG is ridiculous. I'll grant you Amar'e but it's not like Thomas played on talent starved teams either.

And if that was the case then how do you explain this past season? Stevie put up 49/40/90 as a 37 year old man, with his second best player being an even more ancient Grant Hill.

Edit: and way to ignore the crux of my argument, which was Oscar's shortcomings in the postseason.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

today's players would have to condition differently and would probably come in at a lighter playing weight - today's bigs especially would have a problem hanging at first but would eventually adapt just as yesteryear's best players given the advantage of newer training and nutrition regimens would eventually make the transition to today's game - Humanity hasnt experienced an evolutionary change in the last 50 years you know

Oscar's Cincinnatti teams were never that good, West has some famous turd games in his resume, played in the less competitive conference and dealt with the same problem Oscar did just later in play-offs, Boston (which eliminated the Royals in 3 of Oscar's first 4 play-off appearances (twice in the conference finals) and then did the same thing to West in finals )

and yes that was a nice season for a 36 year old but he averaged 14ppg on a sub .500 squad - again no one was all that worried about stopping him - it's not like he was Kobe or Wade and had to deal with that level of attention


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

e-monk said:


> today's players would have to condition differently and would probably come in at a lighter playing weight - today's bigs especially would have a problem hanging at first but would eventually adapt just as yesteryear's best players given the advantage of newer training and nutrition regimens would eventually make the transition to today's game - Humanity hasnt experienced an evolutionary change in the last 50 years you know
> 
> *Oscar's Cincinnatti teams were never that good,* West has some famous turd games in his resume, played in the less competitive conference and dealt with the same problem Oscar did just later in play-offs, Boston (which eliminated the Royals in 3 of Oscar's first 4 play-off appearances (twice in the conference finals) and then did the same thing to West in finals )
> 
> and yes that was a nice season for a 36 year old but he averaged 14ppg on a sub .500 squad - again no one was all that worried about stopping him - it's not like he was Kobe or Wade and had to deal with that level of attention


I doubt it. Maybe some of the heavier bigs (I'm looking at you big baby) would struggle, but the vast majority of NBA players would probably benefit from a track meet. Can you imagine Derrick Rose playing at full speed all game long with suspect defenses on him all game?

MJ's Bulls teams in the mid 80's weren't good either, but he never missed the playoffs three years in a row. Same with Kobe in the post Shaq era. Or LeBron in Cleveland. Hell, even Wade in Miami. Three years is a very long time to be absent from the post season, and that absolutely has to be taken into account when evaluating Oscar. 

15 PPG on 49/40/90 on a 40 win squad when your second and third best players are Grant Hill's corpse and Brook Lopez' little sister is pretty impressive. Period. Especially as a 36/37 year old.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

e-monk said:


> first title run game 7 Reed spent most of the game (despite his notorious appearance at the start) on the bench while Frazier hung 36pts 19 assists and 5 steals on Jerry West
> 
> also Zeke (not the one from cabin creek - I see you have two zekes there) could just easily fit that Billups description with those bad boys teams


in the 19th game of those 69-70 playoffs clyde was spectacular ....the 1st 18 it was clearly willis' team he avg 23.7 and 13.8 compared(thats counting his cameo dropping his avg. in game 7, he was avg something like 27 and 15 vs. wilt in the finals when he got hurt) to 14.8 and 7.6 ast for frazier...there is no question whose team or playoffs it was until willis got hurt

billups it could be easily argued was not the best player on his team(both wallaces could make a pretty big case), just the most clutch, the 69-70 knicks had at least 4 HOF's on that team.

there is no debate who was the best player on those pistons teams that thomas played on.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

VanillaPrice said:


> I doubt it. Maybe some of the heavier bigs (I'm looking at you big baby) would struggle, but the vast majority of NBA players would probably benefit from a track meet. Can you imagine Derrick Rose playing at full speed all game long with suspect defenses on him all game?


another thing that would happen with our time travel experiment - if Rose is playing not just at the pace of that era but with the rules in place he turns the ball over double digits (any contemporary PG in fact) until he learns how to dribble without palming or carrying and forget that extra half step they give the players today - welcome to turnover city


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Da Grinch said:


> in the 19th game of those 69-70 playoffs clyde was spectacular ....the 1st 18 it was clearly willis' team he avg 23.7 and 13.8 compared(thats counting his cameo dropping his avg. in game 7, he was avg something like 27 and 15 vs. wilt in the finals when he got hurt) to 14.8 and 7.6 ast for frazier...there is no question whose team or playoffs it was until willis got hurt
> 
> billups it could be easily argued was not the best player on his team(both wallaces could make a pretty big case), just the most clutch, the 69-70 knicks had at least 4 HOF's on that team.
> 
> there is no debate who was the best player on those pistons teams that thomas played on.


I would say that there's room to debate in as much as the way the Bad Boys worked was not particularly star driven and they had a lot of working pieces (Dumars, Microwave, Worm, Spider, Laimbeer, Aguire all played significant roles) I think the closest cognate to the bad boys pistons would be the 03-04 squad which had a lot of good players but no great ones - in the end I dont really think Zeke separates himself from the Payton, Nash, Kidd et al pack - he was very good, great even but I just dont see the seperation (he was never a serious MVP candidate, his best showing on that front was 5th place (with an 8th and a couple 9th place finishes in there) but more routinely he was usually in the teens in the seasonal voting


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

e-monk said:


> I would say that there's room to debate in as much as the way the Bad Boys worked was not particularly star driven and they had a lot of working pieces (Dumars, Microwave, Worm, Spider, Laimbeer, Aguire all played significant roles) I think the closest cognate to the bad boys pistons would be the 03-04 squad which had a lot of good players but no great ones - in the end I dont really think Zeke separates himself from the Payton, Nash, Kidd et al pack - he was very good, great even but I just dont see the seperation (he was never a serious MVP candidate, his best showing on that front was 5th place (with an 8th and a couple 9th place finishes in there) but more routinely he was usually in the teens in the seasonal voting


they may not have been a typical star driven team , but on their 1st title team he was the only all star on it , so he was pretty much the star , and this is the golden age of basketball, I never said he was in magic's class or bird's so in the 80's he wasn't going to be a serious candidate , no point guard in history outside of magic and the big O would be then.

do you honestly believe nash at his best if he played in the 80's compares with magic in any year?
or bird?
or jordan ?

pre-hand check rules steve nash never garnered better than 3rd team all nba, no top 10 in mvp voting , never avg. 18 points a game , never shot 50% from the field or avg. 10 assists , in short he was mark price more or less , in the 80's he would not have been the guy who could ascend to the level , but put thomas in modern times when no one could put a hand on him and he is a much better player just like nash was when the rules changed.


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## TheGlove_20 (Dec 12, 2011)

1. Magic 2. Big O 3. Zeke 4. Cooz 5. Stockton 6. Payton 7. Clyde 8. Kidd 9. Nash 10. DJ 11. Pearl 12. Pistol 13. Sweety Cakes 14. CP3 15. KJ


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## jaw2929 (Dec 11, 2011)

If Magic & Robertson are one and two, then I've gotta put Cousy in at number 3 realistically. Personally, I'd put Iverson at number 3. But Cousy > Iverson anyway.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

jaw2929 said:


> If Magic & Robertson are one and two, then I've gotta put Cousy in at number 3 realistically. Personally, *I'd put Iverson at number 3*. But Cousy > Iverson anyway.


What?


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## rudymax34 (Jan 22, 2012)

The Glove: Gary Payton
I know that I will get a lot of heat for this, but I thought Gary Payton was the best guard of the last generation, giving him the auto #3 ranking for me.
All Defensive Team 9 TIMES
The ONLY PG to win defensive player of the year
AND to this day, I would say he would have won 2-3 titles if not for the greatest player to walk the earth.
He won two games against the 96 bulls, who swept their way into the finals, and COULD have won the series had payton switched to defending jordan sooner than in game 4, holding jordan to some dismal shooting performances.
sigh, what could have been...

anyways Paytons my #3 PG ever.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

rudymax34 said:


> The Glove: Gary Payton
> I know that I will get a lot of heat for this, but I thought Gary Payton was the best guard of the last generation, giving him the auto #3 ranking for me.
> All Defensive Team 9 TIMES
> The ONLY PG to win defensive player of the year
> ...


I think Gary Payton at his top prime could've been up there.


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