# The Draft Noah Thread



## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Probably more than any other player likely to go in the lottery, Joakim Noah divides people. Those critics like to point out that he has practically no offensive game, and he's too skinny to play C. Hey, sounds like Marcus Camby to me, and that'd be good. One player you can't compare him with is Stromile Swift - a bust in the top 3, if memory serves. Why? Because Swift has no passion whatsoever. Here are some better comparisons, that have been made:
*Anderson Verajaeo* (sp?)
When this comparison is made it's usually damning with faint praise, as if being Verajaeo is a waste, or at least, not worth a lottery pick. Well, hey - go back and look at Verajaeo's draft, and see if he'd drop out of the lottery if the picks were ordered as they've in fact turned out. Besides, does Verajaeo have Noah's passing skills?

*Tyrus Thomas*
When people thought Noah was coming out, this comparison was made often, as in "Noah is a taller Thomas". Hey, with the way Thomas is finally playing, I'll take that any day. Besides, the main knock in Thomas is that he's a jerk, and nobody says that about Noah.

*Jerome "Junk Yard Dog" Williams*
Okay, nobody's made this comparison yet, so I'll throw it out there. This is the worst case scenario, as far as I'm concerned, because, although JYD could fill up a stat sheet, coaches seemed to go off him quick, and I'm betting it's because he didn't have much of a "basketball IQ". Again, not something you can say about Noah.

Now, I'm not saying we should draft Noah if we get the #3 (obviously picks 1 and 2 are Oden and Durant, and definitely in that order) because everybody is in love with Brandan Wright (although I wouldn't be surprised if Noah ended up more useful, just as Camby turned out to be a better pro than Shareef Abdur Rahim). But if, for whatever reason, Noah drops (perhaps GMs are fooled by the kind of things people are NOW saying about Noah), we should take him in the 6-9 range, if we end up there. And here's why.


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## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

He reminds me of Mark Maddsen.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Kiss_My_Darius said:


> He reminds me of Mark Maddsen.


I fear that says more about you than it does about Noah. Of course, we all remember how people were saying of Madsen - "if only he'd've come out earlier, he would've been the top pick!"


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

I'm a little torn on Noah. It depends on who we trade Zach for. If we land a SF then I'm all for Noah assuming Durant, Oden, B. Wright, and Horford are all gone. He has a "good motor" which is great, and I'm not sure how much offense we really need with Roy, Aldridge and whatever SF we get for Zach. He's bound to have 100 times more offense than Joel, so it's a winning situation drafting the guy.


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## smeedemann (Jul 16, 2003)

I don't think Noah is even the best player on his team. Horford is a better player and actually improved his game from last season to this season. Brewer is also improved this season and is a better prospect at the 3 than Noah is at Center.

Noah does not have much of an offensive game and has a terrible shot. Most of his shots are dunks or layins, I have rarely seen him shoot a shot outside of 5 feet. He is a hustle player and is playing the majority of his games against college players shorter and smaller than he is. His stats are not even that impressive for a college player projected in the lottery. What is he going to do when he starts playing with the big boys?

I think his draft position will probably drop once he starts working out for teams in the predraft camps. Hopefully he is picked ahead of Portland or the Blazers have one of the first picks so they don't get him.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

I have a feeling he'll be pretty high on the Blazers' draft board.

Right or wrong, I think they would have taken him over Aldridge last year if he had come out.


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## RedHot&Rolling (Jun 26, 2004)

*NOAH*

PROS
Height - listed anywhere from 6-9 to 6-11.
Handles - ballhandling, dribbling, quickness with hands and feet.
Passing - good aptitude for knowing where to pass and when someone else is open and deserving of the ball. Doesn't hold onto the ball for long.
Speed - thin frame makes him swift (no pun here) and quick - perfect for a run oriented team to get up and down.
Fundamentals - he is pretty solid at passing, blocks, blocking out for rebounds, desire for offensive rebounds.

CONS
Frame - he's smallish, going to be hard for him to gain weight or muscle.
Shooting form - atrocious! He's ok in the 5' and in range but it'll be trouble at the next level.
Heart & Fire - reminds me TOO MUCH of Rasheed. I'm not ready for that yet. He's a Rodman type hustle player and with similar reach. Has good overall game.

I've got him rated #6 on my draft board, behind Oden, Durant, Wright, and Horford and Hibbert.

PS these are my impressions and opinions from watching him play last year and this year. I'm not as high on him as I was last May. He's a very good complimentary player - but drafted as high as he will be - I expect more from a player on his own.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

Major Con....I read on nbadraft.net, that due to the width of his shoulders, he won't be able to put on much mroe weight than he has now(230ish).


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

Well, if you want to do this, then Noah needs some sort of moniker. "Draft Noah" just isn't as memorable as "Draft the Stache". 

barfo


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## GOD (Jun 22, 2003)

My big wuestion about Noah has to do with his shooting form. It really sucks, but even so he makes a decent amout of freethrows. This means that if the NBA coaches are able to teach him ro relearn how to shoot, he will likely become decent. But you don't often see players revamp their shooting form. Without a shot past 5 feet, he is going to have a real hard time in the NBA on offense. And on D, I don't know how well he will pair up with Aldridge. Both are real skinny and it's nice to have either a PF or C that can handle a strong opponent.

As far as the Tyrus Thomas comparison, I don't see it at all. TT is a super athlete and can fall back on that, but Noah's big plus is his hustle ability.

I am not against getting Noah in the 7 - 10 range, but below that I think there are better players. I would put the following players above Noah:
Durant
Oden
B Wright
Horford
Jianlian
Hibert
Green

and perhaps also:
Hawes
Thornton
Brewer

I don't have a mock set up yet, and I am no pritchard at evaluating talent, but Noah seems like a 6th man to me. Drafting high, we should be shooting for the stars. I would rather take a risk on a player with more potential then grab a sure thing low potential guy like Noah.


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## e_blazer1 (Feb 3, 2004)

barfo said:


> Well, if you want to do this, then Noah needs some sort of moniker. "Draft Noah" just isn't as memorable as "Draft the Stache".
> 
> barfo


Well it is Oregon and it does rain a lot here so, "Build the Ark" seems appropriate.

Seriously, though, Noah should play for the Lakers. He's just so easy to dislike.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

MAS RipCity said:


> Major Con....I read on nbadraft.net, that due to the width of his shoulders, he won't be able to put on much mroe weight than he has now(230ish).


Ever looked at Jermaine O'Neal's shoulders?


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## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

meru said:


> I fear that says more about you than it does about Noah.
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately, that is true. My only exposure to Noah is in the Tourney (I think I saw one Florida game this year before the tournement). So I am not a college junkie and often don't participate in threads breaking down college players.
> ...


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## ebott (Jan 7, 2003)

meru said:


> Ever looked at Jermaine O'Neal's shoulders?


And that's why he's never been able to carry the Pacers anywhere. 

It all comes down to where we are and who else is available. If we've got the 4th pick I'd much rather take Al Horford or Brandan Wright. But if we're sitting at 8th and Noah is still available I'd take him.


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## Stevenson (Aug 23, 2003)

I think you guys have missed Noah's major asset: *His passion*. I love watching him play because he wants to win so badly. That can't be underestimated. Larry Bird was not a tremendous athlete, but his passion for the game made up for a lot of physical flaws.


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## smeedemann (Jul 16, 2003)

Rasheed has a lot of passion, how well did that serve Portland?


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## LameR (Jan 4, 2004)

I'm not too high on Noah. If we were picking outside of the top 4 picks, I'd rather spend the pick on Green or Brewer. If we were outside of 10, then I might consider it.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Stevenson said:


> I think you guys have missed Noah's major asset: *His passion*. I love watching him play because he wants to win so badly. That can't be underestimated. Larry Bird was not a tremendous athlete, but his passion for the game made up for a lot of physical flaws.


I'd say Bird's skills (passing, shooting, ball-handling) were what made him great. Noah has some skills, but nothing dominating. I don't think his star-potential (at the NBA level) is high, but he has a good chance of being a useful role-player.

I think Mark Madsen is his worst-case scenario...a player with no offensive game who's best attributes were his hustle and "passion."


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

Only thing I have to say on the issues..

NOAH = *N*ot *O*ver *A*l *H*orford 

We stick to that moniker and we'll be ok. :biggrin:


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

Noah is this year's Adam Morrison.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

dudleysghost said:


> Noah is this year's Adam Morrison.


Oh, I know this game! How about:

Greg Oden is this year's ... Michael Olowokandi!
Kevin Durant is this year's ... Jonathan Bender!
Al Horford is this year's ... Shelden Williams!

This is fun! Actually, I haven't been following your rules, because my players have remotely similar games and body types. So, how about:

Greg Oden is this year's ... Bobby Hurley!

Yes, that's better.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> I think Mark Madsen is his worst-case scenario...a player with no offensive game who's best attributes were his hustle and "passion."


I think you mean "whose". (I only bother to correct you because I know you know better. Plus I'm an annoying pedant. And to prove it...)

"Were"? RIP Mark Madsen.

Madsen would have to be an awfully worst case, implying that even the "experts" who are down on Noah should be a hell of a lot MORE down. Madsen was NEVER highly rated, even when he was having a successful college career (and yes, I believe, even winning the odd dunk contest). He was chosen about where projected, down at the bottom of the first round. It would take a major cataclysm for Noah to be projected out of the lottery.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

smeedemann said:


> Rasheed has a lot of passion, how well did that serve Portland?


Oh don't get that whole mess started again. But because I can't resist: a bit better than the arguably more talented Shareef Abdur Rahim. And when I say "a bit"...


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## TallBottom (May 24, 2006)

Actually David DuPree @ USA says Noah reminds him of Shane Battier someone that is not a go to guy but can do a little of everything in a way to make the whole team better. I think there's something to that. Unfortunately I think (unless we get someone via trade or another pick) we need another go to type guy on offense who can also play some D.
I think Brewer would be a lot better for the Blazers than Green but don't know if either is good enough to say he's the one.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

meru said:


> I think you mean "whose". (I only bother to correct you because I know you know better. Plus I'm an annoying pedant. And to prove it...)


Yes, I did mean "whose." I'm generally less careful about my grammar and spelling in discussion forums. You see, I'm generally typing angrily, so I value speed because I want to finish my post before the fury runs out. However, I'm still mortified by mistakes.



> Madsen would have to be an awfully worst case, implying that even the "experts" who are down on Noah should be a hell of a lot MORE down. Madsen was NEVER highly rated, even when he was having a successful college career (and yes, I believe, even winning the odd dunk contest). He was chosen about where projected, down at the bottom of the first round. It would take a major cataclysm for Noah to be projected out of the lottery.


Well, no analyst projects a player based on a worst-case scenario, so I'm not sure why you're pointing out the improbability of Noah being projected where Madsen correctly went. I'm saying that the bottom-end of his range of possibilities is the Mad Dog. I think his fairest mean projection is Anderson Varejao (a player I like as a role-player but don't think will be a star). I agree, Varejao doesn't have Noah's passing, but I think Varejao is a tougher rebounder than Noah will be at the NBA level. I think Varejao is an underrated rebounder.


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

My list (in order) is:

Durant
Oden
Wright
Horford
Hibbert
Green
Jilian
Noah


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Nate McVillain said:


> I would rather take a risk on a player with more potential then grab a sure thing low potential guy like Noah.


...and that's why we didn't draft Brandon Roy.

Oh, wait, we did, DESPITE people saying that.

Hey, what do I know? Noah could be a bust. I'd be surprised, though. There's a reason Florida keeps winning, and it isn't just Al Horford, because he's not as good as Kevin Durant, who's out, or Brandan Wright, who's out, et. al. As nobody seems to be clicking to the link I started this thread with, I might as well quote a little:



David Thorpe said:


> We all know Joakim Noah is their best player, a likely top 5 pick whenever he enters the NBA. But he refers to Florida's lone senior, Adrian Moss, as "Boss man", and said last night after the game that he's proud to be on Moss's team. MOSS'S TEAM!! Did your best player think, or say, anything similar to that after the season? Last week in a press conference, when Noah's teammate Taurean Green gave a short answer describing the solid play of a seldom used player off Florida's bench in an early round win, Noah jumped in to the discussion to add how hard that player has worked each day in practice. For press conferences, that is the equivalent of a player getting a quadruple-double, it basically never happens, as players only answer questions directed to them. Even after the game last night, Noah told the press that sharpshooter Lee Humphrey "was a monster on D". When your best player speaks that glowingly about his teammates, it is easy to get refined roles and avoid petty jealousy.


Now, of course, when Noah's no longer the "best player on his team" (although he says that's already true, and this year many people agree) perhaps it won't have as big an effect. But, by analogy, compare the Rockets' record this year with the Rockets' record last year, and the difference is essentially Shane Battier, another guy who gets dissed as merely a "glue" guy. (And while we're applying Mill's Method of Difference, compare the Grizzlies' record this year with the Grizzlies' record last year.)


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

meru said:


> Oh, I know this game! How about:
> 
> Greg Oden is this year's ... Michael Olowokandi!
> Kevin Durant is this year's ... Jonathan Bender!
> ...


I think that the (obvious) point was that Noah (like Morrison) has a core group of fans that seem to ignore obvious limitations to his game at the next level.

Morrison is slight and unathletic. These things were going to be difficult for him to overcome in the NBA, and his rookie year shows that.

Noah is slight and unskilled scoring the basketball. His athleticism and length do not appear to be sufficient to overcome his lack of bulk defensively and his offensive skills (dribbling, passing) will be much less valuable in an NBA context than they are at Florida.

There's no science when it comes to determining which high-quality NCAA players are going to excel at the NBA level, but I can see how and why so many of us are so down on Noah in spite of the hype of his last 1.5 years or so in college.

Ed O.


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## 2k (Dec 30, 2005)

I wonder why Noah is never compared to Marcus Camby. Camby is the same listed height and weight. He was scouted as a better shooter other than that they have some similarities.


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## TLo (Dec 27, 2006)

smeedemann said:


> Rasheed has a lot of passion, how well did that serve Portland?


Two Conference Finals appearances. So I'd say it served Portland well.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> However, I'm still mortified by mistakes.


Mission accomplished! (Evil laugh.)



> I think his fairest mean projection is Anderson Varejao (a player I like as a role-player but don't think will be a star). I agree, Varejao doesn't have Noah's passing, but I think Varejao is a tougher rebounder than Noah will be at the NBA level. I think Varejao is an underrated rebounder.


Okay, but then see my previous post: I think we both agree that that's not as much of a diss as people seem to think. My challenge stands: re-do Varejao's draft and tell me how many people should go before him. If it's more than ten, fair enough. If fewer, then Noah's passing moves him up a couple of spots, and us taking him where we're likely to draft is not a reach.

If we're lucky we'll have Green and Noah to choose between, and both of them have been criticized as 'tweeners at the next level. Is Green (whom a lot of people seem to love) any the less of a risk than Noah?


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

meru said:


> Oh, I know this game! How about:
> 
> Greg Oden is this year's ... Michael Olowokandi!
> Kevin Durant is this year's ... Jonathan Bender!
> ...


I thought the comparison between Morrison and Noah would be obvious, but I guess I was wrong, so I'll spell it out.

No, they don't have similar games or body types. But both have a dramatic flair. Both are highly overrated by fans because people like their attitudes and "passion". Read post #15 in this thread, substitute Morrison's name for Noah, and it's like a flashback to 2006. Were you a Morrison fan last year too Meru? I'm just curious.

In the end though, the most important similarity is that both have games that are very successful in college that won't work playing against the highly skilled grown men in the NBA. They just have too many major holes in their games to be effective. Morrison was a scorer who found out that NBA defenses are a lot tougher to create space and go one on one against, and since he can't do anything else, he's not an effective player. Noah is a glorified garbageman, who is going to find out that it's a lot tougher to sneak in for putbacks and rebounds against the bigger/stronger/faster/smarter front courts of the NBA, and since he can't do much else, he won't be an effective player either.

Actually, I think Noah will be relatively more effective than Morrison, because he can be an effective defender in some matchups (as long as the opposing player isn't very big or strong), but outplaying Adam Morrison isn't saying much.


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## TLo (Dec 27, 2006)

Ed O said:


> I think that the (obvious) point was that Noah (like Morrison) has a core group of fans that seem to ignore obvious limitations to his game at the next level.
> 
> Morrison is slight and unathletic. These things were going to be difficult for him to overcome in the NBA, and his rookie year shows that.
> 
> ...



Noah is 6-11 and 230 lbs. That is *not *slight!


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Ed O said:


> I think that the (obvious) point was that Noah (like Morrison) has a core group of fans that seem to ignore obvious limitations to his game at the next level.


Yes I got that. But I'm not one of them.



> Morrison is slight and unathletic. These things were going to be difficult for him to overcome in the NBA, and his rookie year shows that.


He was also the focus of his team's offense, and only of any use if used that way. A glaring DISanalogy with Noah.



> Noah is slight and unskilled scoring the basketball.


See the Marcus Camby/Tyrus Thomas comparison.



> His athleticism and length do not appear to be sufficient to overcome his lack of bulk defensively and his offensive skills


Plausible. But then, do you know how much Buck Williams weighed? Or, if that's too old school, how much Jermaine weighed before he got on an NBA weight-training regimen?



> (dribbling, passing) will be much less valuable in an NBA context than they are at Florida.


As I'm sure has been pointed out in other threads, that depends on the team. See Diaw, Boris. Yes, we're not the Suns. But if the GM can keep drafting players suited to a Suns style of play (see everybody's favourite Spaniard), maybe we'll morph into that style. Hey, if it was a choice between Hibbert and Noah (as it well might be) that's like a choice between the '90s Knicks and the current Suns, and I know which style I want to get behind.



> There's no science when it comes to determining which high-quality NCAA players are going to excel at the NBA level,


Says you. I have discovered its secret laws, but will only reveal them in my soon-to-be-bestselling book.



> but I can see how and why so many of us are so down on Noah in spite of the hype of his last 1.5 years or so in college.


You're just down on him because he's not 19. And his name isn't Dontonio.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

meru said:


> Okay, but then see my previous post: I think we both agree that that's not as much of a diss as people seem to think. My challenge stands: re-do Varejao's draft and tell me how many people should go before him. If it's more than ten, fair enough. If fewer, then Noah's passing moves him up a couple of spots, and us taking him where we're likely to draft is not a reach.


Here's more than 10 guys I'd pick ahead of Varejao from the 2004 class:

1. D Howard
2. E Okafor
3. B Gordon
4. S Livingston (assuming it wasn't possible to anticipate his injury)
5. D Harris
6. J Childress
7. L Deng
8. A Iguodala
9. A Biedrins
10. A Jefferson
11. J Smith
12. K Martin
13. D West

That's from the 2004 class, which if the hype is to be believed, isn't as strong as the 2007 class. And why would we move Noah up spots for his passing but not move him back down for his projected weak rebounding?

If we are picking at around #10 though, I think we should consider Noah. I don't think he'd be a bad guy to have on the team, I just think he'll be an NBA journeyman and that there have to be better players available if we are picking in the top 8 somewhere.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

dudleysghost said:


> I thought the comparison between Morrison and Noah would be obvious, but I guess I was wrong, so I'll spell it out.


No, you were right that it was obvious. Dumb, but obvious.



> Were you a Morrison fan last year too Meru? I'm just curious.


If you were THAT curious, you'd do a bit of research.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

One of the best, if not *the* best rebounder in NBA history was only 6'8" and 210 lbs. It's not about weight, it's about heart. (see Dennis Rodman)


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

dudleysghost said:


> Here's more than 10 guys I'd pick ahead of Varejao from the 2004 class:


Dang, that's a good list. Well, here's hoping there's that many good players in this draft! 

If I were desperate to try to save face, I would pick at a few of them:

Childress: here's a REAL Mr. Average. He'd actually be a good person to cite as a damning comparison for Noah - great college player, not quite athletic enough to excel at this level.

Livingston: I'd take the risk, but even before the injury there were murmurs that he wasn't developing like he should, and big PGs have practically never panned out, unless they're scoring monsters like Penny, whereupon they become SGs.

B. Gordon: he's a bit one-dimensional. But that's a pretty important dimension. And he does his best scoring in the 4th.

West: doesn't excite me. Too Shareef-like.

K. Martin: is it a coincidence that the team has gone south the more he's put up big numbers? Possibly. 

Biedrins: hey! We have a new Noah-comparison candidate!


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

meru said:


> Okay, but then see my previous post: I think we both agree that that's not as much of a diss as people seem to think. My challenge stands: re-do Varejao's draft and tell me how many people should go before him. If it's more than ten, fair enough. If fewer, then Noah's passing moves him up a couple of spots, and us taking him where we're likely to draft is not a reach.


Two points about this:

1. Re-doing the draft probably puts Varejao at 10 or 11 (depending on how you feel about Shaun Livingston, still worthwhile when he gets healthy, or never likely to get healthy). I'd say these players definitely get drafted ahead of Varejao (not necessarily in this order): Dwight Howard, Emeka Okafor, Ben Gordon, Devin Harris, Luol Deng, Andre Iguodala, Andris Biedrins, Al Jefferson and Josh Smith. In addition, it's debatable whether Kevin Martin would go ahead of him.

2. This is considered to be a significantly better draft class. Being number 10 in 2004 isn't equivalent to being number 10 in this draft.



> If we're lucky we'll have Green and Noah to choose between, and both of them have been criticized as 'tweeners at the next level. Is Green (whom a lot of people seem to love) any the less of a risk than Noah?


We could also have guys like Roy Hibbert or Yi Jianlian on the board. Ultimately, none of these guys may be less of a risk, but they may all have higher ceilings. I don't style myself a scout, so I'll certainly defer to who Pritchard selects (until time and the draftee's performance record prove him right or wrong), but I think Portland has a group of good complimentary players and perhaps minor stars. I think they most need a superstar or consistent go-to scorer that gives each opponent fits. The kind of central hub around which everyone else can fit in and excel. This is also, I hope, the last time in a while Portland will select in the top-ten. Due to these two factors, I want Portland to take the player who has the best star potential. If that's Noah, fine, but my own observations of him don't cause me to think he is.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

It'll be interesting to see how Noah measures and works out in the coming months.

If he's smart, he'll hire a good trainer and get to work putting a bit of muscle on just to show that he can. 

His height, weight and combine numbers will end up being very interesting topics for discussion.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Two points about this:
> 
> 1. Re-doing the draft probably puts Varejao at 10 or 11


Already conceded. With ill grace, natch.



> 2. This is considered to be a significantly better draft class. Being number 10 in 2004 isn't equivalent to being number 10 in this draft.


I will not concede this. A draft cannot be judged except in hindsight. I bet 2004 will end up looking deeper than was supposed at the time. This draft might well be shallower. Especially if one or both of the Big Two doesn't come out, which is entirely possible.



> We could also have guys like Roy Hibbert or Yi Jianlian on the board.


Maybe, but if Noah's dropping, somebody's got to be rising. And of those two, surely you can't be arguing that Hibbert has a "higher ceiling" than Noah?



> Ultimately, none of these guys may be less of a risk, but they may all have higher ceilings.


For all we know, Noah's living in a chapel. (Okay, YOU think of a fancy way of saying he's got a really high ceiling.) Hibbert certainly seems to be a plodder, who could be solid, but isn't going to blow anyone's socks off. Yi's intriguing, but is also a big risk, but is also more likely to be the guy pushing Noah down than Hibbert is.



> I think Portland has a group of good complimentary players and perhaps minor stars. I think they most need a superstar or consistent go-to scorer that gives each opponent fits.


Agree on superstar, but not on the latter. Isn't Zach that already? And yet most of us aren't exactly high on him. I think both Roy and Aldridge are very nearly that anyway. 

What "superstars" are ever available at around 8-10? The best example would be somebody like Paul Pierce. But hey, he was projected #2 and dropped like a stone on draft night. So if Durant drops to us, Pritchard has my full permission to draft him.

(Now, there are superstars who drop a lot further: Gil Arenas and Michael Redd are the obvious examples. If Pritchard has the guts to draft someone like THAT in the lottery, more power to him. But both of them dropped for reasons like those used against Noah - seen as college 'tweeners.)



> This is also, I hope, the last time in a while Portland will select in the top-ten. Due to these two factors, I want Portland to take the player who has the best star potential. If that's Noah, fine, but my own observations of him don't cause me to think he is.


So who, among those projected in the 6-12 range, is? Seems to me this is actually a very top-heavy draft, with Oden, Durant and maybe Wright the obvious stars. Even someone like everyone's current fave Al Horford has big questions about him. Part of the trouble is that we don't have any Amare Stoudemires out there (athletic freaks who fall because of questions of character and game-transition) because everyone's had at least a year of college to prove himself. Again, perhaps Yi is it - but then again, what if he's really as old as the cynics suggest?


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

meru said:


> No, you were right that it was obvious. Dumb, but obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> If you were THAT curious, you'd do a bit of research.


Ok, way to avoid the main point. I guess it's easier to call something dumb than to refute it. I'm glad you didn't buy into the Morrison hype factory, but I see the same thing happening with Noah.


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

Back about 18 months ago, SI ran an article on Florida that labeled Noah as only the 3rd most valuable player on the team. Then came March Madness 06, and Noah was suddenly the flavor of the day. There were indeed people who thought he was clearly superior to LaMarcus or Bargs! :lol: 

Now, the pendulum has swung back, and folks are a tad more realistic. It really depends on who does/doesn't declare, but IMHO, Noah is closer to 8-10th pick than the 3rd or 4th.

I also think SI got it right the first time: Horford is and will be the better player.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

meru said:


> What "superstars" are ever available at around 8-10? The best example would be somebody like Paul Pierce. But hey, he was projected #2 and dropped like a stone on draft night. So if Durant drops to us, Pritchard has my full permission to draft him.


It's hard to find superstars at any point in the draft, except in the top 1-3 in a good draft year, but Noah isn't just one notch below superstar status, he's many notches. He's not a superstar, he's not a star, he's not even going to be a borderline all-star. He possibly won't even make an all-star ballot, ever. So to say that just because the superstars will be gone by #8 we should settle for Noah, that just doesn't make sense.

In case you are curious though (yes I am chiding you for the fact that this will make twice that I've done research for you :yay: ), in the past real stars have been found in the 8-10 range, including Andre Iguodala, Caron Butler, Amare Stoudemire, Joe Johnson, Shawn Marion, Paul Pierce, DIrk Nowitzki, Tracy McGrady. That's 8 guys in the last 10 drafts, and if Andrew Bynum and Rudy Gay live up to the expectations some have for them, we could add them to that list as well. That's almost an average of one real star every year picked in the 8-10 range, and that doesn't even include the long list of very good players who were available at that range but end up getting picked later.

The common thread among these guys is that mostly they were unproven and raw when they came to the league, but someone gambled on their potential instead of taking some guy who was more proven but with less upside. You can claim Noah may have cathedral upside, but why would you think that? His only real asset is quickness for his size, but he has a thin frame, is lacking even basic offensive skills and isn't even really that dominating in college.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

dudleysghost said:


> Ok, way to avoid the main point.


I believe I already have addressed it. What was wrong with Morrison was that he was JUST a scorer, and not a good enough one to be the focus of a team's offense at the next level. He was only of use as a star, and wouldn't be one on the next level. The reason the analogy is so inapt (which was MY point that you seemed to have missed) is because Noah is almost the ANTI-Morrison in that regard. He doesn't even have to be the focus on his COLLEGE team. I think people are mistaking "doesn't have to be" for "isn't good enough to be". That's wrong: Noah could be the star on a team already bumped from the tourney - like, ooh, Kevin Durant. (Relax, I'm not saying I'd draft Noah over Durant. I'm not crazy. Although I do think Durant is more of a risk of being the next Morrison than Noah is.)

So: Noah is already suited to being the second-or-third best player on a team that wins a lot of games. Of course, we'd like to be drafting the new BEST player on our team. But Noah could even be that, if he bumps us up a lot of games by making us play well together. "You're not a fool - are you?"


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

dudleysghost said:


> I'm glad you didn't buy into the Morrison hype factory, but I see the same thing happening with Noah.


I do not see anyone calling for Noah over Oden/Durant/Wright - so the hype is not comprable (where A_M was declared as a sure thing by many with questions why he was not taken #1 - can't you just hear Dick Vitale red faced wondering why Toronto went with a bust from Italy over a sure thing like A_M?)

Add the fact that Noah had a better college career than A_M (and could be a whole lot better later today) and there is no real comparison. Neither of these guys will be an alpha dog in the NBA - but Noah will probably be better and is a legitimate 5-10 place in a good draft where A_M is not in what should be a somewhat worse draft.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

Oldmangrouch said:


> Back about 18 months ago, SI ran an article on Florida that labeled Noah as only the 3rd most valuable player on the team. Then came March Madness 06, and Noah was suddenly the flavor of the day. There were indeed people who thought he was clearly superior to LaMarcus or Bargs! :lol:
> 
> Now, the pendulum has swung back, and folks are a tad more realistic. It really depends on who does/doesn't declare, but IMHO, Noah is closer to 8-10th pick than the 3rd or 4th.
> 
> I also think SI got it right the first time: Horford is and will be the better player.


I'll admit, I like Noah a lot for the Blazers last year too. He seemed wiry and raw, but was still effective. I thought maybe he could put on some muscle and develop his offensive skills, but a year later, he doesn't seem to have done much of either, and that has really altered his extrapolated trajectory in my mind. Horford, OTOH, looks really good. He's not a future superstar either IMO, but I think his game will translate to the NBA way better than Noah's. Considering their stats in college are nearly identical, that makes hte choice easy.

Also, I had no idea how good Aldridge really would be. I had him at the top of my board, when Noah decided to stay, but only because the draft class looked relatively weak. I'm so glad Noah stayed in school!


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

andalusian said:


> I do not see anyone calling for Noah over Oden/Durant/Wright - so the hype is not comprable (where A_M was declared as a sure thing by many with questions why he was not taken #1 - can't you just hear Dick Vitale red faced wondering why Toronto went with a bust from Italy over a sure thing like A_M?)
> 
> Add the fact that Noah had a better college career than A_M (and could be a whole lot better later today) and there is no real comparison. Neither of these guys will be an alpha dog in the NBA - but Noah will probably be better and is a legitimate 5-10 place in a good draft where A_M is not in what should be a somewhat worse draft.


I'll admit that Noah isn't going to suck quite as bad as Morrison, but that's not saying much.

But it's not a fair to say that because Noah doesn't have the #1 hype that Adam does that he is thus not as hyped. Adam wasn't in the same draft class as anyone like Oden or Durant. Noah did have #1 hype last year, until he declared that he would stay in school. IF Morrison was in this year's draft class, almost nobody would be calling for him to go #1. Apples and Oranges.

And how did Noah have a better college career than Morrison? His team won the championship, but he had better teammates. Also apples and oranges.  Mark Madsen has multiple NBA championship rings, but I wouldn't say his NBA career has been better than Kevin Garnett's, to use an extreme example.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

meru said:


> Noah could be the star on a team already bumped from the tourney - like, ooh, Kevin Durant.


You seriously think Noah could be the star of any tourney team? Forget Kevin Durant, he's light-years behind Al Thornton in star power.



meru said:


> So: Noah is already suited to being *the second-or-third best player* on a team that wins a lot of games. Of course, we'd like to be drafting the new BEST player on our team. But Noah could even be that, if he bumps us up a lot of games by making us play well together. "You're not a fool - are you?"


Why do you want to draft a guy who is a role player in college with a top 10 pick?


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

dudleysghost said:


> It's hard to find superstars at any point in the draft, except in the top 1-3 in a good draft year, but Noah isn't just one notch below superstar status, he's many notches. He's not a superstar, he's not a star, he's not even going to be a borderline all-star. He possibly won't even make an all-star ballot, ever. So to say that just because the superstars will be gone by #8 we should settle for Noah, that just doesn't make sense.


There will almost certainly be a star available when we draft. We won't know it, though, otherwise you'd NEVER get Arenas, Redd, Ginobili, Boozer et. al. dropping. Incidentally, would you have predicted ANY of those? (That's a rhetorical question.)



> In case you are curious though (yes I am chiding you for the fact that this will make twice that I've done research for you)


Sucker!




> in the past real stars have been found in the 8-10 range, including Andre Iguodala,


Okay. Remember what was said about him? No offense.



> Caron Butler


Yes, he made the all-star game. In the East. Like Jamaal Magloire.



> Amare Stoudemire


See my earlier comment of how there are no Stoudemires in this draft.



> Joe Johnson


Fair enough, although Boston didn't even recognize what they had when they had him. Who's the Joe Johnson this year, in your opinion?



> Shawn Marion


Couldn't you compare Noah with Marion? Ugly shots, mainly defense. Marion's an all-world athlete, but shorter. Noah could be as good a shot-blocker because of his reach, and wouldn't weigh any less.



> Paul Pierce


Projected #2 and dropped for freaky reasons - already covered by a previous post.



> DIrk Nowitzki


There are no Nowitzkis any more because of the improved scouting. Is Yi the nearest thing this year? We'll see.



> Tracy McGrady


Another highschooler - see Stoudemire comment.



> and if Andrew Bynum and Rudy Gay live up to the expectations some have for them, we could add them to that list as well.


...and if Noah lives up to the expectations some have for him, we could add him to that list as well.



> The common thread among these guys is that mostly they were unproven and raw when they came to the league, but someone gambled on their potential instead of taking some guy who was more proven but with less upside. You can claim Noah may have cathedral upside, but why would you think that? His only real asset is quickness for his size, but he has a thin frame, is lacking even basic offensive skills and isn't even really that dominating in college.


Define "dominating". Isn't the point to win games? Seems to have done all right there. Record in blocks in the final four? Check.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

meru said:


> See the Marcus Camby/Tyrus Thomas comparison.


Marcus Camby is one of the best shot-blockers in the game, a very good rebounder, and keeps himself useful on offense by hitting mid-range jumpers with fair consistency.

Tyrus Thomas is limited in his offensive skills, but was drafted high because he is one of the most athletic players in the game.

Those are not good comparisons for Joakim Noah, for those reasons.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

barfo said:


> Well, if you want to do this, then Noah needs some sort of moniker. "Draft Noah" just isn't as memorable as "Draft the Stache".
> 
> barfo


maybe "go-a with noah"

thats gold. you guys should be paying me for this ****.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

dudleysghost said:


> And how did Noah have a better college career than Morrison? His team won the championship, but he had better teammates. Also apples and oranges. Mark Madsen has multiple NBA championship rings, but I wouldn't say his NBA career has been better than Kevin Garnett's, to use an extreme example.



With all due respect - no one ever called Mark Madsen the guy on the team that won the championships - where Noah was (even if he was the 2nd or 3rd best). 

I do belive Noah will be a good NBA player - with an outside shot of being an all star once or twice in his career and maybe a very good player in a fast team - if Portland is trying to build around a fast style of play with Sergio as the PG with Aldridge, Roy and pieces - Noah could be a good fit anywhere from 5 to 10. I also think that he has a good chance of becoming a good vocal leader on an NBA team and make the team better because of his style of play and the little things he does to make the team better. With that in mind - he is a pretty safe selection in this area of the draft.


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

Dude,talking too much and having no jump shot outside of 8ft wont keep you in the nba very long,noah has AVERAGE written all over him


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## RedHot&Rolling (Jun 26, 2004)

Jermaine O'Neal as a rookie was listed at 6-11, 226 lbs. He's now 6-11, 260 lbs. 34 lbs of muscle have been added in 10 years. Yet, he's still not Karl Malone (wide) big.

Although it's humanly (or drug induced) possible for Noah to gain such mass, it's unlikely due to his frame.

Also - although he's listed at 6-11 - I find it interesting that Horford at 6-10 looks bigger/taller. I'm interested in the actual measurements at the NBA camps. Horford and Noah have almost identical stats this season. Horford a bit better at rebounding and FG%, Noah better at Assists, OReb's, and FT%.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

meru said:


> [/QUO
> Okay. Remember what was said about him? No offense.
> 
> 
> ...



You asked if any superstars were picked from #8-#10, and I gave you a list of 8 very good players from just the last 10 drafts. You can pooh pooh them all you want, but those players are all better than Noah will ever come close to being. Do you really think Noah will ever be comparable to Iggy, Marion or Butler? If so, you're high. You can say that the rule prohibiting HSers disqualifies them, but you're really reaching. We still have college freshmen in the draft, and the rule went in place just last year, so all the HSers from 2006 are _in this draft_.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

andalusian said:


> With all due respect - no one ever called Mark Madsen the guy on the team that won the championships - where Noah was (even if he was the 2nd or 3rd best).


Few people are calling Noah the best guy on a championship team. That would be Horford. Mark Madsen was the best guy on a very good Stanford team though, but that's besides the point. The point is, being a role player, even an important one, on a very good college team is a terrible reason to draft a guy. Even if he was the leader of a college championship team, that's still not a very good reason to draft a guy. Just look at Juan Dixon or Mateen Cleeves.

We're not drafting the team, we're drafting the individual. It's very common to find great NBA players on college teams that go nowhere in the postseason. Also, the college game is very different from the pro game, which is why some great college players don't succeed at the next level.

Basically, a college team's success is a very poor predictor of an individual's NBA success. I don't think you can really dispute that.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

meru said:


> For all we know, Noah's living in a chapel. (Okay, YOU think of a fancy way of saying he's got a really high ceiling.)


I granted that possibility, when I said, "If that's Noah, fine."



> Hibbert certainly seems to be a plodder, who could be solid, but isn't going to blow anyone's socks off.


Well, potential isn't all wrapped up in athleticism, though it helps. Hibbert has great size for a center, a fairly refined post game and a little shooting range. He even has Tim Duncan's blank stare!



> Agree on superstar, but not on the latter. Isn't Zach that already? And yet most of us aren't exactly high on him. I think both Roy and Aldridge are very nearly that anyway.


Well, I agree that there are degrees of go-to scorer. Randolph is not among the most efficient first-options, nor does he have the passing inclination and skills to take advantage of heavy defensive pressure. So, to be accurate, I meant a high-caliber first-option. Which I don't think Randolph is.



> What "superstars" are ever available at around 8-10?


Well, this is supposed to be one of the best drafts in a long time.  Even in other drafts, we have Pierce, Kobe, McGrady, Stoudemire, Joe Johnson, Nowitzki, Nash...that's just going back to 1996.



> Part of the trouble is that we don't have any Amare Stoudemires out there (athletic freaks who fall because of questions of character and game-transition) because everyone's had at least a year of college to prove himself. Again, perhaps Yi is it - but then again, what if he's really as old as the cynics suggest?


Players fall beyond their "correct" slot for a variety of reasons, sometimes character issues, lack of proven ability, or simply not being seen enough. There have been major talents in recent drafts that have fallen to the mid-lottery, and *if* this draft is actually stronger, the chances of there being a future great player outside the top-five is even higher.

How high would you take Noah? If Portland ended up with the 4-5 pick, would you still advocate Noah?


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

meru said:


> Yes I got that. But I'm not one of them.


Who would admit to being one? 



> He was also the focus of his team's offense, and only of any use if used that way. A glaring DISanalogy with Noah.


Noah doesn't have to worry about offense because he's (at best) the third option on his team. That leaves him more energy to rebound, play defense, and scream.

Like Morrison, he only needs to worry about one end of the court.



> See the Marcus Camby/Tyrus Thomas comparison.


Camby was a good offensive player after Lou Roe left (over 20 ppg). His jumper has improved since he's been in the NBA, but he wasn't the fish out of water on the offensive end that Noah is.



> Plausible. But then, do you know how much Buck Williams weighed? Or, if that's too old school, how much Jermaine weighed before he got on an NBA weight-training regimen?


O'Neal was about five years younger than Noah will be at the time of the draft. I don't know if it's fair to compare the two.

If Noah were 18 and looked like he does (or even like Durant does)? I'd definitely give him more benefit of the doubt that he'd gain bulk. He's had three years in college, though, and he's still thin. Not without muscle, of course, but just thin.



> You're just down on him because he's not 19. And his name isn't Dontonio.


Alas, poor Wingfield!

I am definitely down on Noah at least in part because he's older. I don't like experienced, unskilled NCAA players. I don't think it's likely he'll add a lot more to his game that he didn't at Florida... and what he's got right now isn't good enough for a top 5 pick.

Ed O.


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## TLo (Dec 27, 2006)

RedHot&Rolling said:


> Jermaine O'Neal as a rookie was listed at 6-11, 226 lbs. He's now 6-11, 260 lbs. 34 lbs of muscle have been added in 10 years. Yet, he's still not Karl Malone (wide) big.
> 
> Although it's humanly (or drug induced) possible for Noah to gain such mass, it's unlikely due to his frame.
> 
> *Also - although he's listed at 6-11 - I find it interesting that Horford at 6-10 looks bigger/taller*. I'm interested in the actual measurements at the NBA camps. Horford and Noah have almost identical stats this season. Horford a bit better at rebounding and FG%, Noah better at Assists, OReb's, and FT%.



You must have a funny TV, because when I have watched their games Noah looks almost 2 inches taller than Horford.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

TLo said:


> You must have a funny TV, because when I have watched their games Noah looks almost 2 inches taller than Horford.


Yeah, but aren't you the guy who repeatedly tried to make the claim that Al Jefferson is taller than Sebastian Telfair?

C'mon, where's your height judging credibility?


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## ROYisR.O.Y. (Apr 1, 2007)

Can we get another thread that says dont draft Noah so everyone doesnt think we like him. cause busts tend to have a bad effect on team's credibility.


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## 2k (Dec 30, 2005)

www.starbury.com said:


> Dude,talking too much and having no jump shot outside of 8ft wont keep you in the nba very long,noah has AVERAGE written all over him


He is a freaking center. Since when is a jumpshot a premium for a center?


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

I think a comparison that many people are ignoring is Andris Biedrinis. Now, I personally think Biedrinis is going to be a better player than Noah, but it is a good comparison. Both players are very skinny for centers, both have terrible outside shots but both also play with an amazing motor, constantly move around, play great help defense, are very athletic and can rebound well. I certainly dont want Noah in the top 5, but after that I would love to grab him. Having two players in Noah and Aldridge who can outrun some guards down the court would be a great step forward to a high paced offense if we choose to go that route.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

[DISCLAIMER: Isn't this fun? We're having serious disagreements over things we know very little about. It's a bit like getting into a car - in real life I'm the nicest guy you could meet, but get me in cyberspace bull****ting about college basketball players, and I get unforgivably rude. So, let's get back to the snarkiness:]



dudleysghost said:


> You seriously think Noah could be the star of any tourney team?


I think he could be the star of SEVERAL. Obviously not Ohio State or Texas, for example.



> Forget Kevin Durant, he's light-years behind Al Thornton in star power.


"Star power"? Actually, I think his biggest detractors would give him that.
I assume you must mean "capacity to carry the offensive load for his team", and if so, I'll grant you that. Of course, he's also behind Adam Morrison by that standard.

I said:



meru said:


> So: Noah is already suited to being the second-or-third best player on a team that wins a lot of games.


To which dg responded:



dudleysghost said:


> Why do you want to draft a guy who is a role player in college with a top 10 pick?


Now that's asinine, even for you. (See? There I go again! I'll hate myself in the morning.)

Let's list a few "role players" (by your definition):
Shawn Marion
Marcus Camby
Rip Hamilton
Richard Jefferson
Either Tony Parker or Manu Ginbobili
Your "star" Caron Butler
Andrea Bargnani
LaMarcus Aldridge

...and that's just the THIRD (not "second or third") best players on teams, not all of which win a lot of games.

Now, is Noah the second best player on his college team? Possibly. But so what? Maybe Horford will be gone before we pick. Does that mean we shouldn't draft Noah? Here are some players who were either second best (or worse) on their college teams or drafted as if they were:

James Worthy
Clyde Drexler
Dikembe Mutombo
Nick Van Exel
Jerry Stackhouse OR Rasheed Wallace
Grant Hill
Vince Carter
Gilbert Arenas

Do I think that proves Noah will be as good as any of those? No. It just proves that it's possible to be very good in the NBA even if you're on a good college team, and sacrifice your stats for winning.

Final thought (because I've wasted a LOT of time on this): here's another Florida player with a similar game to Noah's, but who was rated a second-round pick when he came out: David Lee. Since you're good on the research, dg, wanna compare their stats?


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Ed O said:


> Noah doesn't have to worry about offense because he's (at best) the third option on his team. That leaves him more energy to rebound, play defense, and scream.


You mean, like players like Marcus Camby, Ben Wallace, Dikembe Mutombo, Dennis Rodman - those kinds of guys?



> Like Morrison, he only needs to worry about one end of the court.


Hardly. Morrison is literally a liability on defense. Now, you can sag off Noah on offense, but that doesn't mean he can't score. What's he averaging? At least 14ppg, I think (I have others do my research), over 40 minute games. And isn't he shooting around 60%?



> Camby was a good offensive player after Lou Roe left (over 20 ppg).


Oh, once that offensive powerhouse Lou Roe (recently replaced by Paul Shirley on a team in the Spanish third division) left, suddenly they had to give Marcus some shots? Well let's see if someone of that calibre leaves Florida and Noah stays, if maybe Noah will get more shots.



> His jumper has improved since he's been in the NBA, but he wasn't the fish out of water on the offensive end that Noah is.


Poor Joakim. They give him the ball and this rabbit-in-the-headlights expression comes into his eyes. What do I do with this? he panickily asks himself. Don't they know I'm strictly a defensive specialist?



> O'Neal was about five years younger than Noah will be at the time of the draft. I don't know if it's fair to compare the two.


Fine. Buck Williams then. Or Marcus Camby. Or Dennis Rodman. Or even Kevin Garnett - still a stringbean after all these years.



> If Noah were 18 and looked like he does (or even like Durant does)? I'd definitely give him more benefit of the doubt that he'd gain bulk. He's had three years in college, though, and he's still thin. Not without muscle, of course, but just thin.


Like Marcus Camby. Or Kevin Garnett.



> I am definitely down on Noah at least in part because he's older. I don't like experienced, unskilled NCAA players.


Who would admit to that?
Of course, to call Noah "unskilled" is ridiculous. He's no great shooter, but neither is Jason Kidd, even after all these years. Poor unskilled Jason.



> I don't think it's likely he'll add a lot more to his game that he didn't at Florida... and what he's got right now isn't good enough for a top 5 pick.


Fortunately nobody was talking about a top 5 pick. Unless you assume we're going to SERIOUSLY tank.

Now, believe it or not, I'm no great Noah fan - I've nothing invested in him. But all the people bashing him seem to give pretty weak reasons. And of course, most of them are in the Ed O. school when it comes to "intangibles", whereas I agree with Henry Abbott that they're very valuable, and would be willing to bet that if you replaced Noah with, say, Brandan Wright (you can have him time-travel forward a year if you like) Florida wouldn't be about to defend its title in a second championship game.


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## ProZach (Oct 13, 2005)

I'd rather we didn't draft him, because then I'd have to root for him, and that would prove rather painful. I've tried that masquerade with Miles and it didn't go well. 

Let his pigtailed, howler-monkey persona go somewhere else.


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## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

meru said:


> Although I do think Durant is more of a risk of being the next Morrison than Noah is.


I fear that says more about you than it does about Durant or Noah. :biggrin:


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

2k said:


> He is a freaking center. Since when is a jumpshot a premium for a center?


unless your ben wallace build then being able to score is very imprtant in the nba,you think hes gonna get all those pansy putbacks and tip in`s over guys 5 inches shorter than him in the nba ??

dude has very limited offensive game,no post moves,he`s rail thin and if anywhere he`ll play PF in the nba until his offensive weaknesses shine through and he becomes a benchwarmer


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Kiss_My_Darius said:


> I fear that says more about you than it does about Durant or Noah. :biggrin:


Touche'. (That apostrophe is meant to be an accent. Like Dontae'.)

(All I meant was all-O, no-D, by the way. As I have made abundantly clear, though, I'd definitely take Durant over Noah. The trouble is, so would all the people picking before us. I'd also take Oden over both without thinking twice, something I'm not sure everybody would for precisely the "dazzled-by-O" reasons that got Morrison picked absurdly high.)


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

ProZach said:


> I'd rather we didn't draft him, because then I'd have to root for him, and that would prove rather painful. I've tried that masquerade with Miles and it didn't go well.


Well, at least he hasn't been accused of rape by a drunk stripper while he has young children at home. But hey, I guess that's less important than looking goofy.



> Let his pigtailed, howler-monkey persona go somewhere else.


Hey - show some class. It's PONYTAILED howler-monkey.


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## ehizzy3 (Jun 12, 2006)

no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Can anyone watch the game tonight and think that Noah is a top 5 pick? I mean, seriously... the dude wasn't even one of the top 5 players on the floor most of the night.

One game doesn't really matter, but dang he's overrated by some people.

Ed O.


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## TLo (Dec 27, 2006)

Ed O said:


> Can anyone watch the game tonight and think that Noah is a top 5 pick? I mean, seriously... the dude wasn't even one of the top 5 players on the floor most of the night.
> 
> One game doesn't really matter, but dang he's overrated by some people.
> 
> Ed O.


And yet his team won. For the second consecutive year. Something that hasn't been done since 1991.


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## Peaceman (Jan 15, 2003)

Ed O said:


> Can anyone watch the game tonight and think that Noah is a top 5 pick? I mean, seriously... the dude wasn't even one of the top 5 players on the floor most of the night.
> 
> One game doesn't really matter, but dang he's overrated by some people.
> 
> Ed O.


I think Noah had two or three nice games last year going to the finals and winning. Probably one of those players who has a limited ceiling.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

Noah may have lost millions of dollars tonight. Last year he probably would have been picked No. 1 in the draft, but this year he's going to be lucky to go in the Top 10.


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

3-5 years from now, I would bet Noah will be the 5th best NBA player to come out of this game.


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

I certainly don't think he's overrated, I just think some people like Ed O. are reading too much into the positive comments about him. I certainly don't think he should be a top 5 pick but he should be a guy we look at with where we're expected to pick. Dissapointing game for him for sure, Horford was unimpressive too. Looked like a bit bigger version of Clarance Weatherspoon.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

TLo said:


> And yet his team won. For the second consecutive year. Something that hasn't been done since 1991.


Fantastic for him and Horford and Brewer, who were so much better than he was tonight.

And since when does the NBA draft based on how a player's team did, rather than how good a player is?

Ed O.


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## smeedemann (Jul 16, 2003)

I think he is overrated and overhyped! Out of all the players in the game, which player do the cameras keep going to? They even have to watch him run up into the stands, who gives a crap. He had a lousy game and was 1 of 3 players in the game outplayed by 1 player! Greg Oden!


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

TLo said:


> And yet his team won. For the second consecutive year. Something that hasn't been done since 1991.


not sure how that makes him a good pick.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

TLo said:


> And yet his team won. For the second consecutive year. Something that hasn't been done since 1991.


Actually, it was 1992. Duke repeated 1991 and 1992. The top draft pick from Duke in 1992 was Christian Laettner. 

So, is Noah the next Laettner?

barfo


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

noah got embarassed by oden tonight

ODEN = legitimate NBA center
NOAH = NOT a legitimate NBA center


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## Blazed (May 24, 2006)

www.starbury.com said:


> noah got embarassed by oden tonight
> 
> ODEN = legitimate NBA center
> NOAH = NOT a legitimate NBA center


noah got embarassed by oden tonight

ODEN = legitimate NBA <s>center</s> super-star!
NOAH = NOT a legitimate NBA <s>player</s>


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## TLo (Dec 27, 2006)

Ed O said:


> Fantastic for him and Horford and Brewer, who were so much better than he was tonight.
> 
> And since when does the NBA draft based on how a player's team did, rather than how good a player is?
> 
> Ed O.


They don't. Just wait and see where he gets picked. Then you can give me my props.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

TLo said:


> They don't. Just wait and see where he gets picked. Then you can give me my props.


if i see him get picked top 5 i will give you your props after the draft.
when noah is considered a bust for a top 5 pick in this draft, i will laugh at you and the GM that picked him


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

if joakim noah gets picked in the top 5 i will donate all my ucash to TLo


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## Yega1979 (Mar 22, 2003)

Kiss_My_Darius said:


> meru said:
> 
> 
> > I fear that says more about you than it does about Noah.
> ...


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

barfo said:


> Actually, it was 1992. Duke repeated 1991 and 1992. The top draft pick from Duke in 1992 was Christian Laettner.
> 
> So, is Noah the next Laettner?
> 
> barfo


No, Laettner can hit a jump shot.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

I liken him to Sheldon Williams last year, maybe I take a flyer on him very late in the 1st round.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

meru said:


> Now that's asinine, even for you. (See? There I go again! I'll hate myself in the morning.)
> 
> Let's list a few "role players" (by your definition):
> Shawn Marion
> ...


What I find asinine is you thinking that being the third best player on a good college team makes a guy somehow comparable to the third best player on a good NBA team, or even a bad one.

And you totally aren't understanding what a role player is. You're telling me what my definition supposedly is, but you have no idea. A role player is a guy with a limited game who is only charged with doing a small subset of tasks on the basketball court. They are guys who know their role and fulfill it well, but can't do much else. Marcus Camby is a role player, albeit a very good one. 20 ppg players are not role players. Guys who can do just about everything, like Richard Jefferson or Caron Butler, are the exact opposite of role players. If a guy can run a team, he's not a role player. If all a guy can do is hustle, like Joekim Noah, then he is a role player.

Role players can be very valuable, that's true. Marcus Camby, when he's actually healthy, is a very valuable role player. But he's one of the leagues best shot-blockers and is a very good rebounder, and he isn't a weak spot on offense because his jumpshot makes him a threat to score.

A role player could be worth a top 10 pick, I guess. I think Corey Brewer will be somewhat of a defensive role player in the NBA, at least for the first couple years. But to be worth it, the player actually has to be an exceptional role player. Being a tall hustle player is effective in college, but in the NBA, it amounts to nothing.

We could debate it all day though. I'll leave this thread happy, in any case, because I know is that Pritchard is too smart to use the Blazers top pick on Noah, and that in less than a year's time we'll all have seen how (in)effective Noah really will be at the next level.


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## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

I watched Florida play UCLA in last year tourney and was amazed at how Noah was intimidating the UCLA players. They didn't want to get close to him cuz he was blocking a lot of shots. He was high energy.
Watching him play tonight he looked slow, out of shape and not near as energetic as I remembered him. The Noah I saw tonight is not a top 10 pick. I don't think Horford is going be so hot in the NBA either. A very average PF at best. I was thinking Brewer was just a defensive specialist, but he showed me me tonight that he has the potential to be a very, very good all round player. I think will turn out to be the best pro off of this gator team.

Noah's stock dropped a lot tonight.
Brewer's stock is up.


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

Keep in mind that for all his hype, Oden is younger and far less experienced than Noah - yet he clearly dominated him tonight. That is not a good sign for Noah's chances at the next level.


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## 2k (Dec 30, 2005)

www.starbury.com said:


> unless your ben wallace build then being able to score is very imprtant in the nba,you think hes gonna get all those pansy putbacks and tip in`s over guys 5 inches shorter than him in the nba ??
> 
> dude has very limited offensive game,no post moves,he`s rail thin and if anywhere he`ll play PF in the nba until his offensive weaknesses shine through and he becomes a benchwarmer


Ben Wallace is 6'8 and he was a work in progress for several years before he was anything close to an allstar. What I'm saying is you could have said the same thing about Wallace coming out of college. Matter of fact coming out of college Wallace looked a lot less like a future NBA center. If Noah was a Blazer he would play center. Most likely he would play it better than Pryz and Maglorie. There is no way he would play PF.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

2k said:


> Ben Wallace is 6'8 and he was a work in progress for several years before he was anything close to an allstar. What I'm saying is you could have said the same thing about Wallace coming out of college. Matter of fact coming out of college Wallace looked a lot less like a future NBA center. If Noah was a Blazer he would play center. Most likely he would play it better than Pryz and Maglorie. There is no way he would play PF.


Wallace is a once-in-a-generation deal. A total, absolute freak. Comparing anyone to Ben Wallace is a waste of time, IMO, because so few people are so incredibly athletic and strong at that size.

As for Noah playing center better than Przybilla or Magloire (presuming you mean right now, as opposed to some time in the future): whatever. I think that people forget how good NBA players are. Compare and contrast, say, Matt Carroll and Adam Morrison for a quick refresher.

Ed O.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

I've only seen Noah in two games now, but he strikes me as a skinnier version of Brian Grant. Same attitude, defensive-mindedness and even hair. Grant wasn't super-quick, but in his hay day he knew how to use his beef for man defense, grab some rebounds, and do the little things. 

Without Grant's brawn, I don't really see much there in Noah that makes me think most NBA teams couldn't get similar qualities in a free agent. Does he make sense to draft in the same area we got Khryapa and Outlaw (17ish to 23ish)? Sure. He's likely to have some trade value three years from now, just like those guys. 

If we're thinking about taking him in the lottery, though, then this draft is a hell of a lot worse than has been advertised.


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## Paxil (Jan 1, 2003)

Noah might have hurt himself by staying another year. He looks to be a nice team player... and the Blazers are putting together some players like that... but I am not too high on him. Which means... he might be the steal of the draft... because I thought the same about Roy. =) Seriously though... I like the Bryan Grant comparison... big heart, big effort, so so skills.


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## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

It looks like Noah hurt his draft value by staying another year (gives more fuel for agents trying to convince college players to leave early . . . allegedly).

But in Noah's case, I still think it was a good call staying in college. When athletes talk about their careers, many refer to college as the best time of their life. (I know I was one of those poor college students hitting up dollar movies and happy hour with the best food . . . I may have a lot more money now, but look back at college as some of the best days of my life)

Add to Noah's picture that his family is well off and I don't think it really matters to Noah if he was drafted 1 or 15. There is a money difference between the two picks, but really rookies are playing for that next big contract . . . and you can get that drafted 1 or 15.

Noah will have a chance in the pros to show if can play at that level and be a big impact player deserving a big contract. So I think it was still a good call for Noah to stay in school . . . besides he just won back to back championships and is the BMOC on the Florida campus . . . is there a better place to be the BMOC


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## Mr. Chuck Taylor (Aug 2, 2004)

Everyone has fallen in love with Noah because he's on a good team and people have seen him play, plus he hustles and he has a ton of heart. But that doesn't mean he will be good in the NBA. He just has so little upside. His offense is poor and his defense and rebounding will take a major hit playing against people his size in the nba. I like to root for the guy because of his heart, then again thats why I like Adam Morrison - but I wouldn't take either guy in the draft.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

After watching the championship game, I came to the realization that I like the IDEA of Noah better than I like the actual player.

If Noah was the leader, emotional sparkplug, hustle player, etc that he has been built up to be he would not have been so thoroughly abused by Oden last night. He did not bring anything to that game - tangible or intangible.

I think Noah is going to slip somewhere between #10-20 and become another poster boy for NOT staying in school.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

meru said:


> Now, is Noah the second best player on his college team? Possibly. But so what? Maybe Horford will be gone before we pick. Does that mean we shouldn't draft Noah? Here are some players who were either second best (or worse) on their college teams or drafted as if they were:
> 
> James Worthy
> Grant Hill


just dropped in to say worthy was clearly the best player on his college team and was drafted #1 overall. hill was clearly the best player on his college team when he went pro.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

kflo said:


> just dropped in to say worthy was clearly the best player on his college team and was drafted #1 overall. hill was clearly the best player on his college team when he went pro.


You can certainly make that case AT THE TIME, but only by arguing he was better than Michael Jordan. Go for it.

Yes, Hill was the best player on the Duke team he left. However, during the back-to-back championship years, most observers would have pegged him second-or-third best behind Laettner and (possibly) Hurley. That was all I was suggesting.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

During this thread, a few more novel comparisons for Noah have emerged. So let me list some for comment:

1) Shawn Marion (obviously Best Case scenario)
2) Andris Biedrins
3) Jerome (or was it Jermaine?) Williams (Georgetown teammate of Iverson)
4) Anderson Varejao (mainly for the hair, I think)
and one that has just occurred to me:
5) Jared Jeffries


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## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

Blazer Ringbearer said:


> I think Noah is going to slip somewhere between #10-20 and become another poster boy for NOT staying in school.



Funny . . . I thought he would be a poster boy for staying in school (his value has dropped from last year)


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

meru said:


> During this thread, a few more novel comparisons for Noah have emerged. So let me list some for comment:
> 
> 1) Shawn Marion (obviously Best Case scenario)
> 2) Andris Biedrins
> ...


Hey, don't forget my Brian Grant comparison! 

Which, by the way, is neither good nor bad. (There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so - Hamlet) Grant was good enough to earn a max contract, and bad enough to make every owner of that contract rue the day it was signed.


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## 2k (Dec 30, 2005)

Ed O said:


> Wallace is a once-in-a-generation deal. A total, absolute freak. Comparing anyone to Ben Wallace is a waste of time, IMO, because so few people are so incredibly athletic and strong at that size.
> 
> As for Noah playing center better than Przybilla or Magloire (presuming you mean right now, as opposed to some time in the future): whatever. I think that people forget how good NBA players are. Compare and contrast, say, Matt Carroll and Adam Morrison for a quick refresher.
> 
> Ed O.


As an individual Wallace has rare talents however quality undersized NBA centers are not that rare. For a 20 year old Noah really isnt that undersized. 
I wont rebut your point about Mags and Pryz. They both had shaky seasosn so even if Noah does better than 6 points and 6 rebounds next year it wont really say much.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

2k said:


> As an individual Wallace has rare talents however quality undersized NBA centers are not that rare.


Really? What other players? I can't think of other centers shorter than 6'10". Maybe Brian Skinner, but he's not exactly "quality".



> For a 20 year old Noah really isnt that undersized.


And he doesn't have many stripes for a zebra.

Of course, he's not a zebra. And he's not 20 years old.

Ed O.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

meru said:


> During this thread, a few more novel comparisons for Noah have emerged. So let me list some for comment:
> 
> 1) Shawn Marion (obviously Best Case scenario)
> 2) Andris Biedrins
> ...


Shawn Marion is the Matrix. Why do they call him that? Because he is a freakish athlete. Noah is a pretty athletic guy for his position, but you don't get a cool nickname like "the Matrix" for being just pretty athletic. That's not a good comparison. You don't have Tyrus Thomas on that list, even though you used that comparison before, but I'd also throw that out for the same reason.

Andris Biedrins is closer, but Biedrins is twice as strong as Noah. And I bet when Noah is measured out, it will also show that his wingspan isn't nearly as long.

Jerome Williams is probably a great comparison. He was a great role player and hustle guy, and was very popular with every team he was traded to. He was picked 26th in the 1996 draft.

Varejao is a good comparison too, and not just because of the hair. Jeffries is probably also a good one, although I haven't seen that much of him. I'd also add to that list Keon Clark, although I'll freely admit, Clark is even skinnier than Noah.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

Ed O said:


> Really? What other players? I can't think of other centers shorter than 6'10". Maybe Brian Skinner, but he's not exactly "quality".


The only one I can think of is Alonzo Mourning. He's listed at 6-10 although he looks shorter. He's built like a tank though. Even with just one donated kidney I think he could easily snap Noah in half.

I think what 2k meant by undersized though might have been mass rather than height, since Noah is probably a legit 6-10 or 6-11, although if that were the case, then Ben Wallace wouldn't qualify as undersized either.

Anyway, undersized is a fuzzy concept. A guy can fight under the basket using different weapons: inertial mass, strength, length and speed, along with technique of course. If a guy is outstanding in any one or two of those, he can create mismatches for the opposing defense. If a guy is severely lacking in any one of those, then the opposing offense can usually create a mismatch for him.

Noah has good speed for a big man. He has decent length and size, but poor strength. His technique on offense looks bad, on defense pretty good. Since his offensive skills are bad, he's going to have a tough time exploiting slower centers, but other teams big strongmen will not have a tough time exploiting him.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Comparing Noah to Marion and Keon Clark, and Brewer to Augmon... it's like UNLV week around here 

The Marion comparison, IMO, is way off. Marion's got a funny-looking shot, but he was a good scorer in college (both in JuCo and then his one year with the Rebels). And, as previously mentioned, he's a freak athlete.

Ed O.


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## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

Eight pages on Joakim Noah . . . and after last night's game I have to ask Joakim who? :biggrin:


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Ed O said:


> Really? What other players? I can't think of other centers shorter than 6'10". Maybe Brian Skinner, but he's not exactly "quality".


Alonzo Mourning has long been known to be 6'9", albeit with freakishly long arms. In fact, the length of the arms is more important than the height, as Barkley long ago proved.

Last year Boris Diaw was a slender 6'9"ish center. I don't think Stoudemire is quite 6'10" either. Neither is Emeka Okafor. Kurt Thomas is 6'9".

There's a few to keep you going. (Aaron Williams has had a long, if undistinguished career, as a 6'8" center. Bo Outlaw was a starting center at 6'8" and around 225. Both are pretty scrubby but still a step above Skinner.)


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

meru said:


> Alonzo Mourning has long been known to be 6'9", albeit with freakishly long arms.


Really? I've never seen that before.



> Last year Boris Diaw was a slender 6'9"ish center. I don't think Stoudemire is quite 6'10" either. Neither is Emeka Okafor. Kurt Thomas is 6'9".


Are any of those guys centers, though? They have played center at times, it's true... Okafor's the only one who's been a center for the majority of his career (and he played alongside Brezec for a good chunk of it as a rookie).

Ed O.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

meru said:


> You can certainly make that case AT THE TIME, but only by arguing he was better than Michael Jordan. Go for it.
> 
> Yes, Hill was the best player on the Duke team he left. However, during the back-to-back championship years, most observers would have pegged him second-or-third best behind Laettner and (possibly) Hurley. That was all I was suggesting.


worthy was unquestionably the better player at that time, and was drafted (and awarded - 1st team all american, tourney outstanding player) accordingly. 

hill was the best player on his team when he entered the draft, and was drafted accordingly.

you seemed to be suggesting that noah not being the best player on his college team, at the time he enters the draft, was no different than (or comparable to) the situations of guys like james worthy and grant hill.


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## YardApe (Mar 10, 2005)

I'm sorry guys maybe I'm missing something here but anyone who would draft Noah over Brewer I have to question. Brewer is a Luther Head type of player with more athletic ability and did you see him stroke those three's in the national championship? The form was amazing! How about his stealing the ball from the PG of OSU breaking his ankles and dunking it full court? We need an outside threat who can play defense. Brewer does that and more! Hell he was even guarding Oden at times.

This kid reminds me of a and I hate to say it Kobe? Maybe not as good of course but certainly a game changer. He could easliy play the three. Sergio, Roy, Brewer, Aldridge and Joel would be very freaking explosive.

Brewer is a complete player on both sides of the court.

Noah at his finest will be a Cliff Robinson type of player in the NBA.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

I like Brewer, but have you seen the kids legs are arms? He's freakishly thin, like Shaun Livingston thin. I could see him as a serious injury waiting to happen, especially going up against the stronger 3's of the league.


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## ROYisR.O.Y. (Apr 1, 2007)

zagsfan20 said:


> I like Brewer, but have you seen the kids legs are arms? He's freakishly thin, like Shaun Livingston thin. I could see him as a serious injury waiting to happen, especially going up against the stronger 3's of the league.


thats what everyone looks like coming in. if shaq fell on LMA he could break him! these guys are still filling out their bodies.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

ROYisR.O.Y. said:


> thats what everyone looks like coming in. if shaq fell on LMA he could break him! these guys are still filling out their bodies.


No, there's a difference between skinny and Shaun Livingston skinny.


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## 2k (Dec 30, 2005)

Ed O said:


> Really? What other players? I can't think of other centers shorter than 6'10". Maybe Brian Skinner, but he's not exactly "quality".


By undersized I wasn’t really talking about height alone. With height I would throw wingspan into consideration. Regardless of that is size then biggest question mark surrounding Noah? To me the big question is will Noah become a top-notch garbage man. If he puts on as much weight as Varejao did he will be the typical NBA center. I’m willing to bank on him reaching 250 and getting stronger. Even guys with high metabolisms usually put on weight if they need to. I really don’t know if he can average 10 rebounds and close to 10 high percentage garbage points because that right there is the real question not whether or not he can play the position. 

The way I look at it Noah is an NBA center and if the Blazers are sitting at 7 or 8 and there aren’t any obvious choices I would consider Noah and hope that he can become a legit garbage man at a position where its difficult to find talent. After Oden and Durant we are going to be hoping anyway. There are some safer pics but looking at other big men I don’t think Noah is anymore of a risk than Jianlian, or Hibbert.

All of this talk about big men may not matter though. Brewer is starting to look like the safe and smart pic.


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## M3M (Jun 19, 2006)

If blazers drafted him i would be disgusted. It would be the dumbest move ever to draft this guy. Corey brewer over noah any day.


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## 2k (Dec 30, 2005)

YardApe said:


> I'm sorry guys maybe I'm missing something here but anyone who would draft Noah over Brewer I have to question. Brewer is a Luther Head type of player with more athletic ability and did you see him stroke those three's in the national championship? The form was amazing! How about his stealing the ball from the PG of OSU breaking his ankles and dunking it full court? We need an outside threat who can play defense. Brewer does that and more! Hell he was even guarding Oden at times.
> 
> This kid reminds me of a and I hate to say it Kobe? Maybe not as good of course but certainly a game changer. He could easliy play the three. Sergio, Roy, Brewer, Aldridge and Joel would be very freaking explosive.
> 
> ...


Lol he reminds you of Kobe and he reminds me of Snoop Dog. 

The good thing is he looks like Snoop playing against other celebs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P77gIxsOQ2I

I love this move


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

Neither should be taken with our top pick and neither will be.


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