# Babcock Haters forgot about the Pheonix suns



## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

Now that all of the <b>brilliant *sarcasm*</b> experts have somehow put a negative spin on the Raptors for getting three dynamite blue chip prospects... did they stop to consider that one of the best 3 teams in the league does not even have a center (Suns)...

...now wait a minute there power forward forward was none other than 6-7 Shawn Marion...

... there center is 6'10 245 OMG (amare Stoudamire) !!!! they could never win *sarcasm*.

<b>OK I am going on record
==================
- I expect the Raps to run and shoot 3's next year in much the same fashion that the suns did 
- and they will be the best year over year turn around franchise as the suns were last year (Although the bobcats should also improve dramatically too).
-will make the playoffs

you can throw that back in my face a year from now if I am wrong.
</b>

Shaq is alomst done and Eddy Curry career is in question which means there are few teams with centers over 260 lbs - geez duncan is listed as 6-11 Ben Wallace is 6-9 and detriot is a 1/2 court pick and roll team....

was I the only one who though Rasheed Wallace at 6-11 230 defended Tim better than anyone in the league?

I am not saying the Raps should not try to aquire Jamaal or some other bigger center if a deal is there - but I am saying that with this personelle they can win.


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## AussieWarriorFan! (May 30, 2005)

*Sniffs*

Better get the police dogs in here...........................


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

Babs was on ESPN radio yesterday afternoon. After being asked about drafting 3 players at the same position in the last 3 drafts, he likened the raptors the coming year to the same type of offence in Detroit.

Specifically their big lineup ie. Wallace 2x, and McDyess. 

I like it. 

Finals next year anyone.. ha


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Why are you defending such a **** up?


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## Sporty G (Sep 19, 2004)

I like the look of this team as well, but it's not as though they didn't fire up a lot of threes last year already. In fact, this team had little trouble scoring last season!!! Their only problem was securing defensive stops/rebounds and winning consistently on the road! Coming out of January last year it looked like this was a playoff team. With the new additions and some experience this team SHOULD be .500 next April.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

TheATLien said:


> Why are you defending such a **** up?


Instead of simply bashing the Raptors in all your one line posts, why don't you at least give some support to your opinions. 
Heck, you aren't convincing anybody.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Araujo = Stiff.
VC trade = not enough. As long as Babcock is here, those picks wont do ****.
Villanueva = Bust. Has bad attitude and not many skills.
Graham = Great defender, but can't shoot or dribble.
Roko = Probably will never play in USA.

How can you defend the man who is destroying your team? I don't get it. I want the Raptors to do good, but that is never going to happen with moves like the ones I listed above.


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

charlz said:


> Now that all of the <b>brilliant *sarcasm*</b> experts have somehow put a negative spin on the Raptors for getting three dynamite blue chip prospects... did they stop to consider that one of the best 3 teams in the league does not even have a center (Suns)...
> 
> ...now wait a minute there power forward forward was none other than 6-7 Shawn Marion...
> 
> ...


Bosh and Villanueva don't have the strength, power, or aggression Amare has. Hoffa has the same strength, but he has about one half the athleticism. Shawn Marion is a freak of nature. He's always averaged around 9 rpg, even at the SF position. He has one of the quickest jumps in the NBA and one of the quickest second jumps in the NBA. He's also a damn good defender. It's hard to duplicate what they have at the 4 and the 5.

Who is going chuck 3s for the Raptors? MoPete and Alston? And? Phoenix, 1 to 4, could drain a 3. And when McCarty played some 5, he too could drain the 3.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

TheATLien said:


> Araujo = Stiff.
> VC trade = not enough. As long as Babcock is here, those picks wont do ****.
> Villanueva = Bust. Has bad attitude and not many skills.
> Graham = Great defender, but can't shoot or dribble.
> ...


 Well if you put it that way...

Childress: Bust
Smith: good shot blocker, crappy everything else
Marv Williams: second coming of Darius Miles (as *somebody* said so earlier this year)
Stoudamire: ball hog
Hawks: no point guard, no center, no more than 13 wins again

Raptors had a good draft, getting 3 top-20 prospects without trading up or down.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

LOL. Can't defend your team, so you bash mine. How thoughtful.


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## Theberge43 (Nov 2, 2004)

TheATLien said:


> Araujo = Stiff.
> VC trade = not enough. As long as Babcock is here, those picks wont do ****.
> Villanueva = Bust. Has bad attitude and not many skills.
> Graham = Great defender, but can't shoot or dribble.
> ...


Araujo is "probably" a stiff ...
We didn't get much for Vince, but what was Babs to do ? The guy wasn't even trying anymore ....

Villanueva might become a bust, but saying he doesn't have skills is completely foolish ... he was the most skill big man after Bogut no doubt about that ... there is some question about attitude though.

Graham average was 17.7 pts last year in the NCAA ... the guy can score .... 

Mark my words, Roko will be in TO this fall ... he loves to ball and want to do it in the best league in the world ... 

Before writing ... start by thinking


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Jesus, stop drinking the kool aid. Grow some balls, and realize your team ****ed up.


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## Theberge43 (Nov 2, 2004)

I'm not saying we are out of the woods ...
But Babs hasn't proven he's a complete moron yet ... Araujo wasn't his scouting anyways ... 

If you judge him ... judge him on this year draft ... and we can't until at least christmas


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

FanOfAll8472 said:


> Bosh and Villanueva don't have the strength, power, or aggression Amare has. Hoffa has the same strength, but he has about one half the athleticism. Shawn Marion is a freak of nature. He's always averaged around 9 rpg, even at the SF position. He has one of the quickest jumps in the NBA and one of the quickest second jumps in the NBA. He's also a damn good defender. It's hard to duplicate what they have at the 4 and the 5.
> 
> Who is going chuck 3s for the Raptors? MoPete and Alston? And? Phoenix, 1 to 4, could drain a 3. And when McCarty played some 5, he too could drain the 3.


Yes but the Suns had the best record in the league. No one here expects the Raptors to come even close to that. charlz was simply showing that the Raptors wouldn't be the only team that could make it work. And just so you know, the Raptors were the 2nd best three point shooting team last season, right behind the Suns.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

TheATLien said:


> Jesus, stop drinking the kool aid. Grow some balls, and realize your team ****ed up.


Heading into the draft most people expected the Raptors to go with something like Granger and Jack, or Ukic if Jack wasn't available. 
The Raptors came away with Ukic, Graham and Charlie. 
All three are considered top 20 prospects in this year's draft, 
****ed up?


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

Turkish Delight said:


> Yes but the Suns had the best record in the league. No one here expects the Raptors to come even close to that. charlz was simply showing that the Raptors wouldn't be the only team that could make it work. And just so you know, the Raptors were the 2nd best three point shooting team last season, right behind the Suns.


 The Raptors were 3rd or so, but it doesn't matter because Marshall made a large amount of those 3s (over 2 pg). Marshall in, all likelihood, isn't returning.

Secondly, I'm showing you why it might now work. I don't know why teams are eager to model a system that hasn't netted any championships. The only *true* fast break team that I can recall winning championships was the Showtime Lakers, but they had a true center (HOF in fact) and a legit big man at the 4 (AC Green). Oh one of the best, if not the best, PG ever. I'm not saying a Bosh/Villanueva frontcourt and a fast break/3 pt shot mentality won't work, but just because we lack a "true center" doesn't mean we have to copy the Suns.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Turkish Delight said:


> Heading into the draft most people expected the Raptors to go with something like Granger and Jack, or Ukic if Jack wasn't available.
> The Raptors came away with Ukic, Graham and Charlie.
> All three are considered top 20 prospects in this year's draft,
> ****ed up?


Considered top 20 prospects by who? Internet mock drafters? The same mock drafters who quite clearly didn't know what the hell they were talking about! If Villanueva or Graham ever make a all star team and if Ukic ever cracks an NBA rotation I will eat crow in this thread. I am convinced that Ukic and Villanueva were terrible picks, and Graham will only be okay. Everyone else is convinced otherwise.


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## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

The fact is that Villanueva, Graham and Ukic were expected to go anywhere between 7-20. We got ALL of them with 7, 16 and 41 !

Ukic will play for the raptors next season ... book it. He is probably the best young point guard in Europe today (so Jaskevicious (sp?) doesn't count). 

Graham was the best athelete of the draft ... good combo of speed, strength, wingspan. He may need a better jump-shot, but he is one of the best free throw shooters out there ... should have no problems shooting. Is there any good free throw shooter that can't shoot jumpers ?

Villanueva and Bosh are both long and athletic. They resemble Rasheed and McDyess. If we face a big center, we have 6'11 280 lb Araujo hitting some bodies. 

Mopete is improving. Rose is consistent. Alston is learning ... we have a good core. We will make the playoffs, its just a matter of which spot. 

I don't want to bash Atalanta, you guys have a good core. I don't like Salim, but he's a hell of a shooter. Ball hog ... if he goes at the point, he'll make the young Hawks develop much slower. Marvin will try to play power forward in your team. If you guys sign a decent free agent center a la Kwame Brown or Eddy Curry, you guys are set. You have the cap, we don't.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

TheATLien said:


> Considered top 20 prospects by who? Internet mock drafters? The same mock drafters who quite clearly didn't know what the hell they were talking about! *If Villanueva or Graham ever make a all star team and if Ukic ever cracks an NBA rotation I will eat crow in this thread.* I am convinced that Ukic and Villanueva were terrible picks, and Graham will only be okay. Everyone else is convinced otherwise.


How many 16th overall picks have made an All Star Team? 
Not many people expected this year's 7th pick overall to be an All Star either, since it's been considered a 'weak' draft. 

Print your post out right now, and just stash it in your desk. Just make sure you have some ketchup to eat it with by the end of the season next year.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Turkish Delight said:


> How many 16th overall picks have made an All Star Team?
> 
> Print your post out right now, and just stash it in your desk. Just make sure you have some ketchup to eat it with by the end of the season next year.


You traded VC for 2 1st's, correct? The 16th pick was one of those, correct? I would hope you would get AT LEAST one all star with those two picks, if not two.

If any other team had your draft, you all would be bashing it with everyone else. But since it's your team who had this draft class, you are going along with it.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

TheATLien said:


> If any other team had your draft, you all would be bashing it with everyone else. But since it's your team who had this draft class, you are going along with it.


say something credible...

first you give yourself more credit than sites who do nothing but research these people and now you're telling us how we should think? i don't put much stock on mocks either but at least they tell us something about their game, while you only say "oh, he'll be a bust." 

but in the end i don't know what frustrates me more, you and your one-line posts or the fact that i can't put you on my ignore list.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

TheATLien said:


> You traded VC for 2 1st's, correct? The 16th pick was one of those, correct? I would hope you would get AT LEAST one all star with those two picks, if not two.
> 
> If any other team had your draft, you all would be bashing it with everyone else. But since it's your team who had this draft class, you are going along with it.


If VC wasn't playing at an All Star level when we traded him, how could we expect TWO all stars to be drafted with the picks we got in return for him? 

Again you are being ignorant to what was actually on the table for Babcock. The Raptors probably could have gotten something better if they traded Carter on draft day, but do you really expect a newly appointed, week old GM to trade his franchise player so soon?

Babcock was looking for expiring contracts and picks in return, and it was difficult to find a team which was offering both. In the end, according to what we actually know, the Nets' offer was by far the best for the Raptors organization.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Turkish Delight said:


> If VC wasn't playing at an All Star level when we traded him, how could we expect TWO all stars to be drafted with the picks we got in return for him?


So if you turn Vince Carter into 2 role players, you wouldn't be pissed? :rofl: Sure, buddy, sure.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

TheATLien said:


> Why are you defending such a **** up?


Well I would like to know what combination of 3 players were better?

Frye - has more question marks on him than the riddler
Grangers - knee was enough to keep every lottery team away from him
May - is Marcus fizers more-out-of-shape brother
Digo - is a tweener we have seen Corliss, Lonny Baxter etc already
G.Green - would not work out for the Raps and would not work out head to hear with anyone

So I Would take those 3 any day - what more could he have done - I have been on Babs back since taking Hoffa and all season - I can actually recognize these as being good moves - which leads me to think perhaps Sam and Wayne are having more say...


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

Turkish Delight said:


> Heading into the draft most people expected the Raptors to go with something like Granger and Jack, or Ukic if Jack wasn't available.
> The Raptors came away with Ukic, Graham and Charlie.
> All three are considered top 20 prospects in this year's draft,
> ****ed up?


yes exactly - if any of these detractors looked at the sum gain of the draft INSTEAD of the order they would see the team (through luck + strategy) did very well.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

FanOfAll8472 said:


> Secondly, I'm showing you why it might now work. I don't know why teams are eager to model a system that hasn't netted any championships


first of all 
step 1: develop a winning culture
step 2: tweak style and personell for championship.


NOTE: people are going to rip me for saying this *but* if Joe Johnson wuz healthy Vs. the spurs and Jimmy Jackson was in his 6th man slot (instead of starting). It could have been a very different series.


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## Blazer Freak (Jul 11, 2004)

Oh, just to let you Raptor fans know. If your expecting Roko over here this year, it is almost 100% likely not to happen.

His buyout is going to be close to 1 million dollars, and an NBA team can only give $350,000 towards buyouts. Also, since Toronto passed on Roko after they promised him at #16, it could be a little bit harder to get him over here.

From Draftexpress:



> #7: Toronto: D
> 
> Charlie Villanueva, PF, Connecticut (#7)
> Joey Graham, SF, Oklahoma State (#16)
> ...


LINK


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

charlz said:


> first of all
> step 1: develop a winning culture
> step 2: tweak style and personell for championship.
> 
> ...


I love JJ and I agree, it probably wouldn't have ended in 5 games. And of course a team is going to develop a winning culture. But that doesn't mean we have to copy the Suns, just because neither of us have a true, prototypical center. Going small IMO is a better in-game, change-of-pace option than a 82 game strategy.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

FanOfAll8472 said:


> I love JJ and I agree, it probably wouldn't have ended in 5 games. And of course a team is going to develop a winning culture. But that doesn't mean we have to copy the Suns, just because neither of us have a true, prototypical center. Going small IMO is a better in-game, change-of-pace option than a 82 game strategy.


Well I think the franchise needs to take baby steps. And that first step is regain some credibilty by winning more games - run and gun but play better Zone and Man D. Then you can worry about going deep in to the play offs later.


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## foul_balls (Jun 25, 2004)

TheATLien said:


> Why are you defending such a **** up?


Like the Atlanta GM is so much better.... Good luck with all of your two-guards and small forwards....Or rather, Good luck in the lottery next year... 

I think Babcock did alright this year. If he really wanted to do something ballsy, he would have taken Granger (knee problems and all) who has more potential than Graham. People are using that to criticize Babcock (like you ATlien), but those same people are not calling out Bernie Bickerstaff for passing on Granger, who expressed the same injury concerns that Babcock had.

And who cares about all-stars if you can win like Detroit?


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

My question is, you guys are saying that Toronto is going to run, run run, but is Sam Mitchell that kind of coach?


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

BEEZ said:


> My question is, you guys are saying that Toronto is going to run, run run, but is Sam Mitchell that kind of coach?


Well he's claimed to be. We've definately made some strides in that department last year, and that certainly helped Bosh's development. He's excels on the open court. 
Now that we have a couple of more players that can fit that type of system, hopefully Sam Mitchell can shape this all together.


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## ColinBeehler (Oct 14, 2003)

TheATLien said:


> So if you turn Vince Carter into 2 role players, you wouldn't be pissed? :rofl: Sure, buddy, sure.


How can you expect to get an all star, extra picks, and some a solid role player (E. Williams could be if given the right role). When you are trading a player with major injury concerns, little to no effort on the court, and seemed (at the time) to be 2 years passed his best days... 

Of course I am pissed at what we got for Carter now that I saw him magically turn around his game. But I am not pissed at Babcock, I'm pissed at the little Wince b*tch that used to where the Raps jersey so well...


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I'm not arguing about the picks but to say the raptors will make a fast turn around next year is quite absurd. Raptors is like Phoenix without the dynamic offense and like Detroit without the solid defense. They lack any specific strength at this point and will need the young players to develop and possibly another key player to be competitive.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> I'm not arguing about the picks but to say the raptors will make a fast turn around next year is quite absurd.


no one is saying that


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

*TheATLien * 

I know you get off hating everything about this franchise, but for once why not state what your genius mind would have done so at least we have something to judge you on????

picks 7,16,41 and 58...what would you do??????
while I don't defend or condemn any of Babcocks picks, you obviously are a top level NBA talent evaluator (*sarcasm*), so why don't you bless us with your vast knowledge of the game????


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

The first draft pick from the VC trade could have landed us Gerald Green or Danny Granger. That was certainly a very valuable pick and helps balance that trade considerably. Even getting Graham with that pick could prove to be extremely nice.

Reality check:

Before this draft the idea of getting Green and Bynum was a wet dream for Raptor fans. The idea of getting Green, Bynum and Ukic would have been considered too ridiculous to even talk about. Pure fantasy. Impossible.

But the fact is the Raps could have walked away from this draft with Bynum, Green, and Ukic.

That is what you have to compare the final result to. That is why I don't like the draft. Not because I don't like the players we got, but because we could have done so much better.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

TheATLien said:


> Why are you defending such a **** up?


Just curious, what should they have done IYO.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

lucky777s said:


> The first draft pick from the VC trade could have landed us Gerald Green or Danny Granger. That was certainly a very valuable pick and helps balance that trade considerably. Even getting Graham with that pick could prove to be extremely nice.
> 
> Reality check:
> 
> ...



I agree with you so much 777 so this feels weird.

I am not going to defend Rob or the brass but it IS unfair at this point to judge which of these players will become best.

Things can go either way at this point. From what I've learned from GG in the last few days, he is not the kind of person that I wish to be a piece of the core.

If GG was the next Lebron, he would be number 1. He is clearly more Dorrell Wright than Lebron. That is not necessarily bad but it is a question mark.

You are certainly entitled to feel disappointment. But seriously, when you see GG sitting on the bench or down in the development league for the next 2 years are you still going to be saying what you are saying now. 

It is a certainty that he is immature physically and mentally at this point.

And to be honest, the curve for improvement on this team is T-minus 2 years. Charlie V will be approaching a great time as a 22/23 year old. GG will be just starting to get PT at this point, when Bosh will have to leave or extend.

You can think I'm wrong, but in retrospect their thinking and their choice makes a lot of sense to me. The raps were last in rebound differential. CV grabbed 8.3 in around 25 mins. Frye got 7.5 or so in 31. CV is the kind of big that fits what the organisation is trying to accomplish.

Could Bynum be great? Maybe. But lets look at the Other HS bigs. Kwame is a head case gone at #1 and has just recently become decent. Still immature in the head. Eddy turned it on in his contract year taken in the top (4th). Tyson (2nd) has just finally come through at the end of his rookie deal as well. Even still, are they worth the money they will surely ask for, for one decent year of service? Robert Swift taken (12?) got 16 games. Al Jefferson picked 13 is no world beater, but should develop.

Amare is the only big of recent memory to be drafted outside the top 3 to make a tremendous impact. But he had the body and mind to do it.

Maybe Bynum can do it, but it is a crap shoot. CV is not.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Don't get me wrong BUTR. I do not see Bynum or Green as sure things by any means. They are gambles. Comparing Green to Dorrel Wright may be exactly right and I'm fine with that. Picking him at 16 would be perfect. Bynum is a rare physical beast so if Kwame deserved a 1 and Curry deserved a 1 then quite frankly Bynum may have deserved a 1. Getting him at 7 would have been great. He isn't Jerome Moiso or Mengke Bateer, I'm pretty sure of that.

Even if both picks turned into busts I would never criticize those picks. Babs would have taken the best shot at bringing in true impact players. To not take either in our position seems wrong to me. Maybe I am just more aggressive than Babs.

But Charlie is a gamble too in my opinion. Especially if you expect him to play 5.

No way was he the best 5 on the board. Or the best 3 for that matter. So what does his versatility really mean if there are better players available at those positions where we have real needs.

Charlie could surprise everyone and outshine Bosh as the new franchise guy. Who really knows. Almost every draft pick is a crap shoot. He seems to have really matured.

But when I shoot craps I do it to win big, and I'm not afraid to make big bets. Babs had two shots at home run picks. He left the bat on his shoulder both times and didn't take his cut.

Maybe changing the culture is more important than pure talent at this point, I don't know. But I do know we have sacrificed pure talent for that in this draft.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

TheATLien said:


> LOL. Can't defend your team, so you bash mine. How thoughtful.


 I've been defending my team enough. You've been bashing my team's draft, yet the same could be said about yours. So don't talk if your team won 13 games. The Raptors are gonna win 13 games by mid-December 2005, so don't talk.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

So I can't criticize because my team sucks? That's some ****ty *** logic you got there. I'll criticize whoever the **** I want whenever the **** I want. Don't ****ing tell me what I can say and won't say. If you think I'm bashing the Raptors, I'm not. I'm just letting people know that I don't like what Babs is doing. Now what is so ****ing wrong with that? I'm not the type who is going to kiss his *** and be a ****ing cheerleader. **** that edited *** ****.

you're at about a nine, here. i need you at about a three. thanks.

ps. to everyone who masks their curses, you can see from the above post from TheATLien that if you let the auto-edit do it's thing, your post still retains the power of cursing and avoids me going in and clipping it altogether, so nobody ever sees your diatribe. let the asterix's do their thing.


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## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

Let me preface this post by saying that I think Toronto actually had a solid draft.

However, if I'm a Toronto fan I would be pretty disappointed with the way things turned out. If I was in Babcock's place, I would have drafted (in order) Green, Granger, Ukic, and Mendez. This would also give you guys a better chance to resign Bonner and potentially be looking at this depth chart:

Alston, Al. Williams, Ukic
Rose, Peterson, Green
Granger, E. Williams, Murray
Bosh, Bonner, Aa. Williams
Araujo, Sow, Woods

NBDL: Cook, Mendez

Down the road this could've turned into a lineup of:

Ukic
Green
Granger
Bosh
Who cares (Magloire??)

WOW


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

lucky777s said:


> Don't get me wrong BUTR. I do not see Bynum or Green as sure things by any means. They are gambles. Comparing Green to Dorrel Wright may be exactly right and I'm fine with that. Picking him at 16 would be perfect. Bynum is a rare physical beast so if Kwame deserved a 1 and Curry deserved a 1 then quite frankly Bynum may have deserved a 1. Getting him at 7 would have been great. He isn't Jerome Moiso or Mengke Bateer, I'm pretty sure of that.
> 
> Even if both picks turned into busts I would never criticize those picks. Babs would have taken the best shot at bringing in true impact players. To not take either in our position seems wrong to me. Maybe I am just more aggressive than Babs.
> 
> ...


A 1? I'm confused. Curry wasn't first overall. Bynum was a number 1 draft pick for the Lakers, which is the only other possible meaning. What do you mean? 
But how are you so sure he isn't going to be Moiso or Bateer? How much have you seen of him? Please don't say the McDonald's All-American Game, because that's an all-star game and those don't show much. Hell, I remember Jonathan Bender dominate the '98 or '99 one, but where is he now? The Pacers are trying to unload him.

I find your word choice, "pure talent", hilarious. Green looked to me to be a pure talent, but Bynum? He has size, that's what he has. He's a physical specimen, but very raw. He has a long ways to go, to develop some real talent. I would say Green's shot, smoothness, and ability to sky high are talent. Eddy Curry and Al Jefferson came into the league with some post moves, that's talent. DeSagna Diop and Andrew Bynum came into the league with size and mobility for a big man. That's not talent.



> I've been defending my team enough. You've been bashing my team's draft, yet the same could be said about yours. So don't talk if your team won 13 games. The Raptors are gonna win 13 games by mid-December 2005, so don't talk.


What's up with the ad hominem? He, in fact, everyone, has every right to come in here and criticize or praise the Raptors. That's why this is a *forum* and your comment here is degrading the quality of this forum. Talk Raptors, not Hawks. TheATLien never brought up the Hawks.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

Interesting - on "the Rap" Eric smith mentioned how 2 picks later GS selected Digu who was even more of a surprise at 9 but Steven A did not Rip that one...


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

It's because everyone hates Canada.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

TheATLien said:


> So I can't criticize because my team sucks? That's some ****ty *** logic you got there. I'll criticize whoever the **** I want whenever the **** I want. Don't ****ing tell me what I can say and won't say. If you think I'm bashing the Raptors, I'm not. I'm just letting people know that I don't like what Babs is doing. Now what is so ****ing wrong with that? I'm not the type who is going to kiss his *** and be a ****ing cheerleader. **** that gay *** ****.


 Calm down guy, ROFLcoptors


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

charlz said:


> Interesting - on "the Rap" Eric smith mentioned how 2 picks later GS selected Digu who was even more of a surprise at 9 but Steven A did not Rip that one...


What was surprising about that? I didn't hear it on draft day, but apparently the local media had Diogu nabbed as the pick.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

TheATLien said:


> LOL. Can't defend your team, so you bash mine. How thoughtful.


He isn't bashing yours, [strike]just making fun of how dumb your comparisons were.[/strike]


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

TheATLien said:


> Araujo = Stiff.
> VC trade = not enough. As long as Babcock is here, those picks wont do ****.
> Villanueva = Bust. Has bad attitude and not many skills.
> Graham = Great defender, but can't shoot or dribble.
> ...


edited

if jack helped you off a horse, would you help jack... please stop all the -baiting. speedy.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

vigilante said:


> He isn't bashing yours, just making fun of how dumb your comparisons were.


 Thank you. Even Pan wouldn't use the ad hominem there.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

charlz said:


> Now that all of the <b>brilliant *sarcasm*</b> experts have somehow put a negative spin on the Raptors for getting three dynamite blue chip prospects... did they stop to consider that one of the best 3 teams in the league does not even have a center (Suns)...
> 
> ...now wait a minute there power forward forward was none other than 6-7 Shawn Marion...
> 
> ...


I gained a whole bunch of respect for you Charlz. While I didn't necessary agree with your prior assessments of Rob, but I like the fact that you hold no agenda and do individual assessments of each move (do not let prior opinions impact your assessment). edited who will bash Rob for anything.

i'm running out of -baiting jokes. i should've started with your first infraction so as not to run out of material earlier in the thread rather than later. regardless, stop all of the closet talk. you've crowded the closet as it is. speedy.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

JuniorNoboa said:


> Unlike, a closet troll like AtLien, who will bash Rob for anything.


To be fair, considering what Rob's brother did to his team, can we blame him?


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## Boris (Jun 30, 2005)

TheATLien how can you say that Roko will never play in NBA? You never saw him play. But I did. Many times. If he develop his full potential, he will be all-star. He can do things that nobody can do in Europ including Ginobili who is not from Europ but he played in. His style of play would fit perfectly in the NBA and he should be capable of contributing right away next season.

And something you should know about. People in Europ like Canada more then USA.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Turkish Delight said:


> Heading into the draft most people expected the Raptors to go with something like Granger and Jack, or Ukic if Jack wasn't available.
> The Raptors came away with Ukic, Graham and Charlie.
> All three are considered top 20 prospects in this year's draft,
> ****ed up?


Don't worry edited He praises Indiana and Boston for choosing guys who were ranked highly in the mocks. Yet when TO picks 3 of the top 20 players, they do a horrible job. edited

edited what would have been good picks for the Raptors. edited.

you must have hands-on experience to get away with all this -baiting you're doing. stop. speedy.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Blazer Freak said:


> Oh, just to let you Raptor fans know. If your expecting Roko over here this year, it is almost 100% likely not to happen.
> 
> His buyout is going to be close to 1 million dollars, and an NBA team can only give $350,000 towards buyouts. Also, since Toronto passed on Roko after they promised him at #16, it could be a little bit harder to get him over here.
> 
> ...


OK. thanks edited. Now I'm going to start the F Martell Webster club.

i won't tell anyone that I caught you -baiting, don't worry. speedy.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

TheATLien said:


> So if you turn Vince Carter into 2 role players, you wouldn't be pissed? :rofl: Sure, buddy, sure.


edited, do you go post the same stuff on the New Orleans board after they got Speedy Claxton for Baron Davis.

Let me know - and give me an answer why you do not. Why would you post here but not there..... hmmmm, edited.

please do not be a baiter, even if you consider yourself a master. speedy.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

BEEZ said:


> My question is, you guys are saying that Toronto is going to run, run run, but is Sam Mitchell that kind of coach?


Yes he is. I'm surprised you did not know that. That is the style he wants to play.


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## ColinBeehler (Oct 14, 2003)

TheATLien said:


> LOL. Can't defend your team, so you bash mine. How thoughtful.



I find it ironic that you are complaining about US bashing YOUR team... When all you have been doing in this thread is bashing Rob Babcock and the Raptors... Say something credible, back up your opinion... I mean I can respect someone else's opinion if they back it up somewhat... Even if I don't feel they are right, however if what you are saying seems like mindless babble I'd prefer you wouldn't post at all...

Thank you... 

-lata

p.s. I think that all the "The ATLien" harrassing has gone too far... lets lay off a bit...


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## Boris (Jun 30, 2005)

Oh, just to let you Raptor fans know. If your expecting Roko over here this year, it is almost 100% likely not to happen.

It is 90% likely to happen
http://www.crobasket.com/main.asp?P=Vijest&J=ENG&VijestID=1908


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

TRON said:


> *TheATLien *
> 
> I know you get off hating everything about this franchise, but for once why not state what your genius mind would have done so at least we have something to judge you on????
> 
> ...


Yes, please do. And please do not choose players, that are higher ranked in mocks. because you alraidy a trap for yourself they were useless. edited

you're -baiting stamina won't last. give up. speedy.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Damn man.. why y'all doggin' on me? I'm just statin' my opinion. Isn't that what this site is for? I've been posting this site all off-season, months before the draft, but the moment I disagree with the franchise I get pissed on like R Kelly.

If it were me I would have gone with a wing at 7, and Jack at 16. I really didn't think another big was needed, but I guess I have more confidence in Sow & Araujo than others do.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

lucky777s said:


> The first draft pick from the VC trade could have landed us Gerald Green or Danny Granger. That was certainly a very valuable pick and helps balance that trade considerably. Even getting Graham with that pick could prove to be extremely nice.
> 
> Reality check:
> 
> ...


I respect that opinion and it is a fair way to look at the draft - no qualms with your assessment if you truly beleive that Green / Bynum would be better. I disagree with your player opinions, but I like the way you thought it was a bad draft

But I am not convinced with either - this was the weakest HS class in college recruiting over the past 5 years. so the best HS'ers may have been a bit overrated.

Bynum - not convinced he was any better then Charlie V - Charlie V was a much better prospect entering college, and Charlie V has shown good progression at the NCAA.

No doubt, I would have liked Green - edited, any qualms over choosing Graham over this guy have disappeared.

exhausting. you're reaching the limit. no more of this will be tolerated. speedy.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

TheATLien said:


> So I can't criticize because my team sucks? That's some ****ty *** logic you got there. I'll criticize whoever the **** I want whenever the **** I want. Don't ****ing tell me what I can say and won't say. If you think I'm bashing the Raptors, I'm not. I'm just letting people know that I don't like what Babs is doing. Now what is so ****ing wrong with that? I'm not the type who is going to kiss his *** and be a ****ing cheerleader. **** that gay *** ****.


Wow great post.

it's embarassing when somebody catches you -baiting. thanks. speedy.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Boris said:


> People in Europ like Canada more then USA.


My heart is broken.


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## Magus Relmyn (Oct 26, 2004)

This thread is stupid.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

TheATLien said:


> If it were me I would have gone with a wing at 7, and Jack at 16. I really didn't think another big was needed, but I guess I have more confidence in Sow & Araujo than others do.


that's your master plan? :laugh:

ok, the raps got their wing at 16. the raptors got a point guard who is arguably better prospect than jack at 41. so based on this, you wasted a pick at 7 for player that would be available at 16 and the raps still struck gold at 41, a draft pick to which you had not listed a preference to.

edited

too much. i must put an end to this circle of -baiting. speedy.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

It doesn't matter, because Rob Babcock is one of the 3 worst GM's in the league. If you call me a troll for believing that, then so be it. I really don't give a **** what a bunch of [strike]_Canadians_[/strike] say about me.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

This thread needs to get back on track, or else it's toast. Good premise in the OP, but it will NOT turn into a Canada vs. US debate.


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

trick said:


> that's your master plan? :laugh:
> 
> ok, the raps got their wing at 16. the raptors got a point guard who is arguably better prospect than jack at 41. so based on this, you wasted a pick at 7 for player that would be available at 16 and the raps still struck gold at 41, a draft pick to which you had not listed a preference to.
> 
> troll along now, troll along.



I don't think he's doing this in hindsight. Draftniks all thought Granger would be off the board at 16, so I wouldn't call taking Granger (I'm assuming he's the wing player) at #7 a bad pick. Or Jack at #16, considering I don't think many of us have seen Ukic play before. Chad Ford had Ukic rated higher than Jack, but Ford doesn't know anything.



> Damn man.. why y'all doggin' on me? I'm just statin' my opinion. Isn't that what this site is for? I've been posting this site all off-season, months before the draft, but the moment I disagree with the franchise I get pissed on like R Kelly.
> 
> If it were me I would have gone with a wing at 7, and Jack at 16. I really didn't think another big was needed, but I guess I have more confidence in Sow & Araujo than others do.


:laugh: Does calling somebody a troll not qualify as baiting? Goodness, I've lost some respect for this forum. It's one man's opinion, don't be immature and start hating him just because he criticizes the team's moves.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

FanOfAll8472 said:


> I don't think he's doing this in hindsight. Draftniks all thought Granger would be off the board at 16, so I wouldn't call taking Granger (I'm assuming he's the wing player) at #7 a bad pick. Or Jack at #16, considering I don't think many of us have seen Ukic play before. Chad Ford had Ukic rated higher than Jack, but Ford doesn't know anything.


do you not see the hypocrisy in all this?

for quite a few pages now he's been saying how the raptors had a crappy draft and yet he reveals his plan, hindsight or not, babcock's eventual plan proved to be better than his.


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

trick said:


> do you not see the hypocrisy in all this?
> 
> for quite a few pages now he's been saying how the raptors had a crappy draft and yet he reveals his plan, hindsight or not, babcock's eventual plan proved to be better than his.


First of all, the namecalling started before he even posted his plan. Second of all, what tells you that Babcock's eventual plan is better than his? He didn't include a second round draft pick, what if that was Taft? That's a damn nice draft right there. Granger, Jack, Taft. But we still don't know if that's better than Villanueva, Graham, Ukic or not. We, unfortunately, don't have a crystal ball.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

FanOfAll8472 said:


> First of all, the namecalling started before he even posted his plan. Second of all, what tells you that Babcock's eventual plan is better than his? He didn't include a second round draft pick, what if that was Taft? That's a damn nice draft right there. Granger, Jack, Taft. But we still don't know if that's better than Villanueva, Graham, Ukic or not. We, unfortunately, don't have a crystal ball.


ok


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

Boris said:


> Oh, just to let you Raptor fans know. If your expecting Roko over here this year, it is almost 100% likely not to happen.
> 
> It is 90% likely to happen
> http://www.crobasket.com/main.asp?P=Vijest&J=ENG&VijestID=1908


That got me confused a bit. I was sure he was going to come.
Thanks for the link.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

kk well let theATlien have his opinion and dont rip him for it jeez. i really hope the raps turn ito a suns style of team with more tenacity like detroit on the defensive end. i think we will deffo make the playoffs around the 3 spot through the 6th. this team has so much promise now i love having a young team so much better than a few years ago when vince started going down hill.


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## Boris (Jun 30, 2005)

Turkish Delight said:


> That got me confused a bit. I was sure he was going to come.
> Thanks for the link.



It is 90% likely that he will come


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

JuniorNoboa said:


> I gained a whole bunch of respect for you Charlz. While I didn't necessary agree with your prior assessments of Rob, but I like the fact that you hold no agenda and do individual assessments of each move (do not let prior opinions impact your assessment). edited who will bash Rob for anything.


Thanks JuniorNoboa

as it stands right now from my limited information there are only 3 glaring things with babcock that I am angered with because I think they are inexcusable.

1. Drafting Hoffa
2. <b>Not backing Sam</b> after the season got derailed and players like Rafer needed to see a united front (of Management and coaching) not taking his crap.
3. I think even though babcock was new he should have not gone in to camp with <b>Vince on the Roster - this devalued him</b> and the subsiquent Compensation.

<b>=====What I am *not* pissed at Rob about</b>
1. At the time of the <b>Vince trade</b> (after the mistake was made of hanging on to him too long) the trade was good - too bad Eric Williams was not a pro but Joey G + cap relief + development of Bosh etc.. was worth it
2. Draft 05 was all good better than I could have expected
3. Rafer Signing was good first 20 games (before the loosing got to him) Rafer was the bright spot on the team... since then there are some serious questions though.
4. Drafting Mendez - who cares
5. Not trading Donny at the break - the best I heard was Scott Polard "NO THANKS" - a 2nd rounder would have been nice but in retrospect there may have been a fan backlash from the few out there that thought the 8th seed was in reach.


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## BenDengGo (Feb 1, 2004)




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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

BenDengGo said:


>


haha I actually took that wallpaper in paint and changed ruining to running.. because that wallpaper is actually well done, just wrong message.


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