# What's the difference between Allen Iverson and Tracy McGrady?



## IV

What really is the difference between Tracy and Allen?

The one man team is best represented by either of these two superstars. Each has had his ups and downs, but A.I.'s history speaks for itself. He has succeeded where Tmac has failed. Alot of excuses/reasons have been made by Tmac fans, some valid some not. 

It's strange because, the majority of posters on this board(I think) would take Tmac over AI hands down, but the little guy still manages to lead his team and get wins. Maybe A.I.'s performance has been underappreciated? Who knows. I'm just curious to hear what you all think about this comparision.


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## CP26

AI has won MVP and T-Mac hasn't yet.


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## HEATLUNATIC

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> What really is the difference between Tracy and Allen?
> 
> The one man team is best represented by either of these two superstars. Each has had his ups and downs, but A.I.'s history speaks for itself. He has succeeded where Tmac has failed. Alot of excuses/reasons have been made by Tmac fans, some valid some not.
> 
> It's strange because, the majority of posters on this board(I think) would take Tmac over AI hands down, but the little guy still manages to lead his team and get wins. Maybe A.I.'s performance has been underappreciated? Who knows. I'm just curious to hear what you all think about this comparision.


<strike>Another Laker/Kobe fan that wants to bash T-Mac!!! 

Why bring AI into the mix,cuz its not like u really want to compare the 2???

Typical Laker/Kobe fan!!!:laugh:</strike>

( This is an attack on the author of this thread. I suggest you don't do this again. thanks.)


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## Natty Dreadlockz

Responsibility and Heart... How many time's have you heard AI whine about zone's or needing help?... Just my opinion.


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## Kunlun

T-Mac is at least eight inches taller and shoots a better percentage. But, Iverson can win games and will his way to victory. I would take Iverson over T-Mac.


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## futuristxen

I would take Iverson over any perimeter player currently playing. He's my favorite player.

But to answer your question...in a word: HEART.

Iverson has the heart and competitive desire that all the great one's possess. T-mac by comparison, less so.


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## Dre

> Originally posted by <b>Eagle</b>!
> Responsibility and Heart... How many time's have you heard AI whine about zone's or needing help?... Just my opinion.


Exactly. At this point, Iverson is a much better leader.....It seems he's becoming a bit underrated...seeing how he blew up a few years ago, It sounds stupid even saying that. I for one would still probably Take T-mac if I were a GM, because he's younger (a few years helps), and can eventually mature...but if this is a regular Toss-up, I'm taking AI....


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## IV

*Re: Re: What's the difference between Allen Iverson and Tracy McGrady?*



> Originally posted by <b>HEATLUNATIC</b>!
> 
> 
> <strike>Another Laker/Kobe fan that wants to bash T-Mac!!!
> 
> Why bring AI into the mix,cuz its not like u really want to compare the 2???
> 
> Typical Laker/Kobe fan!!!:laugh:</strike>


On this board we all fall victim to constantly debating the same old topics. I feel that this is an interesting topic that helps us take a step outside from the norm. Forget about your anomosity towards Lakers fans, or Kobe fans and address the topic.

Outside of the loses in Orlando this year, and even last year, many would take Tmac over AI, but AI is the guy who leads and produces wins. Don't you find that "new thread" worthy?

Does A.I. not deserve his props for this? :whoknows:


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## compsciguy78

AI is one of my favorite players also and he deserves the props. Tmac so far has shown flashes of greatness. Doc Rivers said he could be one of the best ever. So far the edge goes to AI. TWhine has to learn to be a leader like everyone says. Telling the media you are going to retire during a losing streak is not good leadership.


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## walkon4

*one word*

There is a one word difference

heart.


Iverson owns Mcgrady because of Desire


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## rainman

ketchup and mustard


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## Nevus

Like others have said, it's heart, will, spirit, fight, whatever you want to call it... Allen Iverson has a huge pile of it and Tracy McGrady's got very little or none.


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## LionOfJudah

If Tmac had half the heart AI does he's be dominating other teams all by himself. 

Maybe he should read that book that John Kitna read that he claims made him play with more passion and emotion?


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## ToddMacCulloch11

a few inches?


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## Minstrel

The differences: McGrady is taller, shoots a better percentage and can hit tougher shots more consistently (like the hanging fade-away).

The difference that people confuse for "heart": Iverson has had more talent around him. If you think he'd take these current Magic anywhere, you're kidding yourselves.


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## jazzy1

Ai has a watermelon where Tmac has a mustard seed for a heart. 

AI accepts no excuses for why his team doesn't suceed. AI plays both ends relentlessly plus he's more talented and the better player. His speed and quickness are the best the league has ever seen and makes him unguardable every night. 

Tmac is a very talented athlete, explosive with out of the gym type range but, he has very little heart, isn't a real leader and is currently feeling sorry for himself because of the losing. AI would never say It feels like every night we're gonna lose when we show up. Thats embarrasing for Tmac to say. 

Tmac isn't doing all he can stat wise to help his team win. He's scored 50 only once and he is scoring far less than at any time last season. 

Wait they lost Darrel Armstrong thats the key. 

Tmac has been a disappointment to me I thought he was a much better player than he's shown to be and he's not nearly the competitor I thought he could become. He's a poser not an intense competitor.


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## IV

> The difference that people confuse for "heart": Iverson has had more talent around him. If you think he'd take these current Magic anywhere, you're kidding yourselves.


AI had to score 35 point for his team to win by 1 last night. Philly is at the top of the Atlantic division and he's doing it without much talent around him this season.


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## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> The differences: McGrady is taller, shoots a better percentage and can hit tougher shots more consistently (like the hanging fade-away).
> 
> The difference that people confuse for "heart": Iverson has had more talent around him. If you think he'd take these current Magic anywhere, you're kidding yourselves.


Every shot Iverson takes is harder than the hardest shot T-Mac ever takes. T-Mac is shooting over the top of people most times. Iverson is shooting around them most of the time.

He goes to the hole and gets to the line more than T-Mac too, which is incredible considering his size that he can take that punishment every night. He got like 25 free throws the other night.

I think the Magic would have at least 4 maybe 5 victories with Iverson this year as opposed to T-Mac. T-Mac has actually struggled this year. All the blame can't go to his teammates. Part of it is that T-Mac has had some off-games as well.

I mean, the Sixers aren't exactly loaded with talent right now either. Amal Mcaskill gets meaningful minutes for chrissakes. Didn't the Magic originally draft Mcaskill?

Last night Iverson beat the bulls pretty much by himself. Kenny Thomas didn't show up. Derrick Coleman is playing with some sort of Baker's cyst on his knee.

I mean, yes, the Sixers as a team have consistently been better than T-Mac's magic, but I think a large part of that is team attitude. Which is a product of Iverson and Larry Brown. T-Mac simply does not give near as much effort as Iverson does night in and night out. If he did, they wouldn't have this huge losing streak.


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## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Every shot Iverson takes is harder than the hardest shot T-Mac ever takes. T-Mac is shooting over the top of people most times. Iverson is shooting around them most of the time.
> 
> He goes to the hole and gets to the line more than T-Mac too, which is incredible considering his size that he can take that punishment every night. He got like 25 free throws the other night.
> 
> I think the Magic would have at least 4 maybe 5 victories with Iverson this year as opposed to T-Mac. T-Mac has actually struggled this year. All the blame can't go to his teammates. Part of it is that T-Mac has had some off-games as well.
> 
> I mean, the Sixers aren't exactly loaded with talent right now either. Amal Mcaskill gets meaningful minutes for chrissakes. Didn't the Magic originally draft Mcaskill?
> 
> Last night Iverson beat the bulls pretty much by himself. Kenny Thomas didn't show up. Derrick Coleman is playing with some sort of Baker's cyst on his knee.
> 
> I mean, yes, the Sixers as a team have consistently been better than T-Mac's magic, but I think a large part of that is team attitude. Which is a product of Iverson and Larry Brown. T-Mac simply does not give near as much effort as Iverson does night in and night out. If he did, they wouldn't have this huge losing streak.


I don't even think Robinson is playing for them right now. It's basically AI and a bunch of scrubs. I don't think that Dalembert, Snow, and McKie are any better than Gooden, Howard, and Lue. All of them are average-above average players. The only difference is that the Sixers have more experience. However, that shouldn't equate to 9-10 more wins. The Magic as a team have no backbone. They aren't the least bit resilient. The second things don't go their way they just give up. AI wouldn't have Orlando in the playoffs but they'd sure as hell have more than 1 win right now.


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## IV

Glenn has only played in 4 games this year.


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## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> I would take Iverson over any perimeter player currently playing. He's my favorite player.
> 
> But to answer your question...in a word: HEART.
> 
> Iverson has the heart and competitive desire that all the great one's possess. T-mac by comparison, less so.


Dee Bo?


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't even think Robinson is playing for them right now. It's basically AI and a bunch of scrubs. I don't think that Dalembert, Snow, and McKie are any better than Gooden, Howard, and Lue. All of them are average-above average players.


Dalebert, Snow and McKie may not be better *names*, but they're *playing* better than Gooden, Howard and Lue.

I mean, McGrady took nearly the same roster to the playoffs last year. Is the theory that McGrady became a wimp and heartless player during the offseason? Or is it more instructive to actually watch the games and *see* Gooden and all fumble away the ball or miss lay-ups when McGrady gets them the ball wide open at the hoop?


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## Natty Dreadlockz

> I mean, McGrady took nearly the same roster to the playoffs last year.


I'm not saying that McGrady's not a straight baller... But, he doesn't have the drive that AI has... Never has never will... I've never seen a cat become so comfortable with losing in the span of a year, then commence to blame'n his supporting cast and former coach.



> Dalembert, Snow and McKie may not be better names, but they're playing better than Gooden, Howard and Lue.


I'll agree with ya on this... The front office should share some of the blame for acquiring Howard and Lue, and trading for Gooden.


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## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>Eagle</b>!
> 
> I'm not saying that McGrady's not a straight baller... But, he doesn't have the drive that AI has... Never has never will... I've never seen a cat become so comfortable with losing in the span of a year, then commence to blame'n his supporting cast and former coach.
> 
> 
> I'll agree with ya on this... The front office should share some of the blame for acquiring Howard and Lue, and trading for Gooden.


How the heck is it his fault that they are losing? Its partially his fault but mostly what he said is true.

His teammates are turning over the ball at ridiculous times of the game..they come within 1 or 2 points...then when they inbound it, its stolen because they dont know how to inbound the ball or get open..and then they do the same thing back to back and then foul opponent while they dunk to make it even more of a lead..

He is doing all he can to get them a win but they aren't doing their part and finishing what they have to do..


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## LionOfJudah

Sounds like the Budwiser commercial....

"Theres no 'I' in team"

"We'll their ain't no 'Me' either"


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## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>stevemc</b>!
> Sounds like the Budwiser commercial....
> 
> "Theres no 'I' in team"
> 
> "We'll their ain't no 'Me' either"


You guys blow up his quotes as if he's a selfish arrogant player..

IF YOU ACTUALLY WATCH THE GAMES....

You will see that he doesn't take every shot...he distrubutes the ball and doesn't show off his dunks etc. He's setting everyone up for easy shots..they are just not hitting them..


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## Natty Dreadlockz

> IF YOU ACTUALLY WATCH THE GAMES....


LMAO... I watch the game's... I also never said he was soley resposible for them losing... What I said was that he's quickly became comfortable with losing, and that he doesn't wanna take a leadership role during the ruff time's.


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## kflo

the primary difference in their teams seems to be that, even though tmac shoots a higher %, his team shoots significantly worse from the field (42.3% to 40.8%). neither team rebounds well (although obviously tmacs a better rebounder than iverson), and defensively neither team is great this year.

iverson does play with much more energy, and some of that will be contagous.


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## Johnny Mac

Well considering a thread was made a few weeks ago of the top 5 and most people had Baron Davis and Iverson in Kobe and Tmacs spot. So I think people have started to give AI his due.


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## Natty Dreadlockz

> iverson does play with much more energy, and some of that will be contagous


True... All of his energy is contagous though.


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## jokeaward

AI has heart, as you'd have to to be a short #1 draft pick. But he doesn't have a monopoly on it.

Look, if T-Mac had ZERO heart, he's probably just not show up to games, especially now. He'd be like JR Rider or Lenny Cooke.

Heart or height, speed or skill, they both lost in the playoffs to the Pistons last year.


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## Vivor

How soon people forget. I believe Allen Iverson was one of the first and most outspoken against the zone defense. Continue....


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>Vivor</b>!
> How soon people forget. I believe Allen Iverson was one of the first and most outspoken against the zone defense. Continue....


He said he didnt like it, it was for them to stop him and he aint say nothing else about it. Never once did you hear him say oh ima retire


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> He said he didnt like it, it was for them to stop him and he aint say nothing else about it. Never once did you hear him say oh ima retire


Never once did you hear McGrady disparage practice or blow his team off, in terms of ditching practice.

Sorry, if you want to take every little wart and balloon it into "lack of heart," Iverson's got his own warts.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> Tmac isn't doing all he can stat wise to help his team win. He's scored 50 only once and he is scoring far less than at any time last season.


That's funny .. man, he has only scored 50 points once .. that is so terrible.

I will admit AI has more heart than Tmac, but I dont think there is anyone in the league that matches Iverson in that department. As far as Iverson being a leader and being responsible, that is another question ... off-court issues and a dislike for practicing, problems with coach, etc .. AI is a leader on the court because he plays so hard, but off the court he is not very good at all.

Reasons for taking Tmac .. he is younger, just as good if not better offensively, taller, more athletic, shoots a higher percentage, better rebounder, can block some shots .. AI is better steals man .. 

You cant put all the blame on Tmac for what has happened this season ... Tmac alone has carried Orlando back in many fourth quarters this season only to have another player screw it up.
Go check the shooting percentages and averages of the guys on this team ... they are terrible and no one so far is even having a decent year, except maybe Lue.

You cant compare team success between either guy because Tmac still has not had the team around him that Iverson does. I think people seriously undervalue guys like Eric Snow and Aaron McKie. Watch those guys play and tell me how many mistakes they make. Not many. And watch how many big plays and big shots they make, a lot. AI's finals team was far better than any team Tmac has had around him.

If Tmac ever gets a decent cast around him there won't be any argument between the two. I still say if Iverson were 6'6" he'd be far and away the best player on the planet, but he isn't. 

I dont blame Tmac for being tired of carrying this team. And after losing so many games, what person in the world isn't going to take a shot to their confidence. I guarantee with Iverson's attitude, if Philly were 1-17, all hell would have broken loose by now.


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Never once did you hear McGrady disparage practice or blow his team off, in terms of ditching practice.
> 
> Sorry, if you want to take every little wart and balloon it into "lack of heart," Iverson's got his own warts.


fact of the matter is Iverson has more heart than Tmac will ever have and dont act as if McGrady is at every single practice either.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> fact of the matter is Iverson has more heart than Tmac will ever have and dont act as if McGrady is at every single practice either.


How is that a "fact?" It's your opinion.

And I don't recall McGrady, or very many other players, getting into a controversy over ditching practice.

Don't just act like any problem Iverson has had means nothing and a trivial comment at a time of frustration from McGrady totally defines him. That's not reasonable.


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## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> How is that a "fact?" It's your opinion.
> 
> And I don't recall McGrady, or very many other players, getting into a controversy over ditching practice.
> 
> Don't just act like any problem Iverson has had means nothing and a trivial comment at a time of frustration from McGrady totally defines him. That's not reasonable.


C'mon. We're talking about PRACTICE???! The Magic are 1-17 and AI has been playing some of the best ball of his career, and we're talking about PRACTICE??! And not even practice this year. We're talking about practice from a few seasons ago. By all accounts AI has been pretty close to a model citizen for the last two years after his last bout with the Philly police.

Right now AI is doing more for his team than T-Mac is. You can bring up all the past things you want. But right now T-Mac is at a lowpoint in his career and Iverson is at a high point.

Iverson and Baron Davis are the two top MVP candidates right now in the season. T-Mac isn't in that conversation. A lot of that's his team, but enough of it is him right now. He has not responded well at all to this. I expected some defiance. Not him to roll over and start crying. VERY disapointing.

And honestly, when I saw them both on the same team in the Olympic Qualifiers, Iverson clearly seemed like a bigger diffrence maker. On that team I would say it went after Duncan--1)Iverson 2) Carter 3) T-Mac. T-mac was just out there chillin' shooting J's. Iverson was playing with the intensity of a playoff game. That to me is the diffrence between the two of them. Iverson never takes a break on the floor. When he steps on the floor to play a game, he goes all out. He doesn't have a take it easy speed.

But anyhow. It's not like this Iverson vs. T-Mac or Kobe arguement with you is anything new, Ministrel. It's all personal preference.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> C'mon. We're talking about PRACTICE???! The Magic are 1-17 and AI has been playing some of the best ball of his career, and we're talking about PRACTICE??! And not even practice this year. We're talking about practice from a few seasons ago. By all accounts AI has been pretty close to a model citizen for the last two years after his last bout with the Philly police.


I only brought it up to illustrate that every player has warts to them. People were using a sentiment uttered in frustration (that he clearly did not mean, since he didn't follow through on it) to show McGrady didn't have heart.

And, incidentally, at the time that Iverson was missing practices and fueding with Larry Brown, people were accusing Iverson of being a selfish, punkish player. It's amazing what a make-over going to a Finals will give you.

If you took this same McGrady, dropped him on a team like the Kings and he was the leading performer for them and they went to the Finals...suddenly, McGrady would get that same make-over.

The same make-over Jordan received when he and Pippen fused into a winning duo.



> But anyhow. It's not like this Iverson vs. T-Mac or Kobe arguement with you is anything new, Ministrel. It's all personal preference.


It's nothing new and I agree it's personal preference. But when I look back at past examples, including Iverson himself, "heart" and "team leader" have almost always correlated totally with "team success." At least having that team success once, like Iverson did a couple of years ago.

Jordan was just a dunking fool until he won a title. Magic and Bird were the darlings, because they had won...even if they may not have been as good as Mike Jordan. And so it goes.


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## futuristxen

T-Mac should take a paycut and go play SF for the Spurs.


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## Minstrel

Well, no one in this league takes a paycut. But the Spurs would be a bad destination if he wanted to brighten his image as a "leader." In San Antonio, leadership credit would always be given to Tim Duncan.

He needs a team where he can be the best player but also have a talented cast. It's a tricky business, getting situations to align. His best bet would have been for Orlando to successfully build talent around him.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> T-Mac should take a paycut and go play SF for the Spurs.


Duncan should take a paycut and go play for Orlando.


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## Duece Duece

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> Duncan should take a paycut and go play for Orlando.







Why in the hell *WOULD* Duncan take a paycut to play in Orlando. He's the one with the rings and MVPS.


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## Sir Magic

AI-MVP, Big Heart, Been to NBA finals
T-Mac-Taller, Better Shooter, Back problems


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## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Well, no one in this league takes a paycut. But the Spurs would be a bad destination if he wanted to brighten his image as a "leader." In San Antonio, leadership credit would always be given to Tim Duncan.
> 
> He needs a team where he can be the best player but also have a talented cast. It's a tricky business, getting situations to align. His best bet would have been for Orlando to successfully build talent around him.


At this point I don't think Mcgrady wants to be a "Leader". I think he just wants to play with some talent around him...maybe get a few wins.

Guys you'd want to play with:
Duncan
Kidd
Shaq


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> How is that a "fact?" It's your opinion.
> 
> And I don't recall McGrady, or very many other players, getting into a controversy over ditching practice.
> 
> Don't just act like any problem Iverson has had means nothing and a trivial comment at a time of frustration from McGrady totally defines him. That's not reasonable.


No it is fact thats not my opinion. its clearly evident


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Duece Duece</b>!
> 
> Why in the hell *WOULD* Duncan take a paycut to play in Orlando. He's the one with the rings and MVPS.


It was a ridiculous response to a ridiculous post. Calm down. It wasn't meant to be serious.


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> I dont blame Tmac for being tired of carrying this team. And after losing so many games, what person in the world isn't going to take a shot to their confidence. I guarantee with Iverson's attitude, if Philly were 1-17, all hell would have broken loose by now.


The thing is, as long as AI is healthy that wouldnt happen


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> No it is fact thats not my opinion. its clearly evident


Anytime you are talking about judging someone's heart, desire, and/or determination it is in fact an opinion.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> The thing is, as long as AI is healthy that wouldnt happen


Depends on who is on his team. Put him on this Orlando Magic team and it could very well happen.

Orlando has zero inside presence, no good rebounders, and no good defenders besides Tmac. Probably the three most important elements of winning basketball games. If you have those things, you can win no matter how bad you shoot. AI has always had those types of guys on his team.


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> Depends on who is on his team. Put him on this Orlando Magic team and it could very well happen.
> 
> Orlando has zero inside presence, no good rebounders, and no good defenders besides Tmac. Probably the three most important elements of winning basketball games. If you have those things, you can win no matter how bad you shoot. AI has always had those types of guys on his team.


The thing is the Orlando team is not that bad, honestly to me it looks like coaching


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> The thing is the Orlando team is not that bad, honestly to me it looks like coaching


The talent is there. This year the team has just not learned how to play together and they don't fit together well. Most of the talent is offensive. Very little defensive talent and toughness from any guy on the team. That has been Orlando's problem the last three years. Steven Hunter is the only real defensive talent, but he makes Ben Wallace look like MJ on offense.

Very frustrating watching this team ... even when they score big, they can't stop anyone. And as soon as Tmac leaves the game, the other team goes on a 5 or 6 pt run.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> No it is fact thats not my opinion. its clearly evident


Fine...facts are that Iverson has less heart than McGrady, and more team talent. Clearly evident.

Glad to end *that* discussion with "facts."


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## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Fine...facts are that Iverson has less heart than McGrady, and more team talent. Clearly evident.
> 
> Glad to end *that* discussion with "facts."


Thats a sexy diss.


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Fine...facts are that Iverson has less heart than McGrady, and more team talent. Clearly evident.
> 
> Glad to end *that* discussion with "facts."


You know im not going down without a fight. Leaders, winners, players withe heart and determination do not go on 18 gm winning streaks


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> You know im not going down without a fight. Leaders, winners, players withe heart and determination do not go on 18 gm winning streaks


I assume you mean "losing streaks." And they do when their "soldiers" are dropping grenades on their own feet and shooting themselves in the eye.

McGrady is setting up his teammates for easy scores and they're fumbling balls away, missing lay-ups, missing wide-open jumpers. What is McGrady supposed to do, possess their bodies and *force* them to play well?

McGrady is going out there and giving his all despite ridiculous circumstances. Less determined players would pack it in...who cares in a lost season?

It's funny: When McGrady was seen tearful recently, that was "disappointing" in terms of him being a leader. When he was seen laughing earlier in the season, that was "disappointing" in terms of him being a leader. It's fairly amusing how whatever McGrady does, that's the new symbol for not being a leader. Like there's one exact expression that he should be wearing, between tears or forced smiles, that would convey great leadership and determination in the face of adversity.

Really, though, "heart" has always been determined by winning, and winning has always been determined by team ability. People don't want to admit that, so they try to create these "other signs" of heart, or lack thereof, like reactions after a loss or whatever.


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> I assume you mean "losing streaks." And they do when their "soldiers" are dropping grenades on their own feet and shooting themselves in the eye.
> 
> McGrady is setting up his teammates for easy scores and they're fumbling balls away, missing lay-ups, missing wide-open jumpers. What is McGrady supposed to do, possess their bodies and *force* them to play well?
> 
> McGrady is going out there and giving his all despite ridiculous circumstances. Less determined players would pack it in...who cares in a lost season?
> 
> It's funny: When McGrady was seen tearful recently, that was "disappointing" in terms of him being a leader. When he was seen laughing earlier in the season, that was "disappointing" in terms of him being a leader. It's fairly amusing how whatever McGrady does, that's the new symbol for not being a leader. Like there's one exact expression that he should be wearing, between tears or forced smiles, that would convey great leadership and determination in the face of adversity.
> 
> Really, though, "heart" has always been determined by winning, and winning has always been determined by team ability. People don't want to admit that, so they try to create these "other signs" of heart, or lack thereof, like reactions after a loss or whatever.


I agree with that/ Ive never understood the complaints about him smiling or lacktherof


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Really, though, "heart" has always been determined by winning, and winning has always been determined by team ability. People don't want to admit that, so they try to create these "other signs" of heart, or lack thereof, like reactions after a loss or whatever.


I agree with that completely. People said the same thing about Iverson when he had his own problems. Now that his team is playing well, he is a great leader. People said Duncan was soft and not vocal enough, now they say otherwise when his team wins. 

People make up things about a players character based on the .1% of the persons life that is televised. Their minds change quickly though when the win column changes.


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## Natty Dreadlockz

Seriously... Enuff, with the Heart and leadership comparison's... I was guilty of doing that in the begining... But... Then I looked at the situation in real term's... Their both in the same conference... You've got AI and his supporting cast, then you've got McGrady and his supporting cast... Neither cast's have breath taking talent... Both player's had legit second scoring option's, but they've been dealt away... Both team's have weak middle's with the exception of offensively limited youngin big's, Dalembert and Hunter... So what do you got left?... AI and his team in first place... McGrady and his team in last.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Eagle</b>!
> 
> So what do you got left?... AI and his team in first place... McGrady and his team in last.


And AI's teammates playing better than McGrady's teammates. If you deny that, you haven't watched the Magic play.


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## John

First, we have to distingush what a true superstar is.

A true superstar who is able to take a bunch of role players to at least a 500 record and able to win some close games on his own.

1) has T-Mac ever step up his game in clutch situations? I mean the shot that decide the game outcome? Never!

2) When your go-to guy cant step up in clutch, it will look like ur teammates are bad because you arent winning games. But come on, why dont the go to guy produce 2 or 3 times out of the 17 losses?????

3) Sure Magic may not have the best talent, but can u freaking Magic homers guranatee that with the 00-01 Iverson supporting cast, T-Mac as of today could win the MVP and go to the finals? Please note that there arent good shooters on the sixer team, there isnt much space for T-mac to operate.

4) Is anyone with me here that I am tempt to call T-mac A superstar despite his overrated productions, let alone being a leader.

5) Vince Carter, Kobe, Iverson are the ones that can win a champiosnhip as a first scoring option, Pierce, T-mac will be good but not as good as the three above!


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## Johnny Mac

Some of you vastly underrate Eric Snow and McKie.


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## Natty Dreadlockz

> Some of you vastly underrate Eric Snow and McKie.


Their good role player's... But... Both were the odd men out on their last stop's before Philly.



> And AI's teammates playing better than McGrady's teammates.


I wonder why?


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Eagle</b>!
> I wonder why?


Me too.


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## Natty Dreadlockz

The difference is AI <strike>smart ***. </strike><font color=blue>Confrontational - therefore unacceptable.)</font>:nonono:


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Eagle</b>!
> The difference is AI smart ***.


He magically transforms into Eric Snow after passing to him and makes the shot for him? 

Man Tmac needs to learn to do that. 

Some of these arguments are getting ridiculous. Tmac gets his teammates open shots, they miss and its his fault. Iverson gets his teammates open shots, they make it and he not only get credit for the pass but he gets credit for his teammate making the shot too?


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## Natty Dreadlockz

> He magically transforms into Eric Snow after passing to him and makes the shot for him?
> Man Tmac needs to learn to do that.


LMAO... McGrady's had set up men and scorer's in his backcourt before... He know's how to do that already. 



> Some of these arguments are getting ridiculous. Tmac gets his teammates open shots, they miss and its his fault. Iverson gets his teammates open shots, they make it and he not only get credit for the pass but he gets credit for his teammate making the shot too?


It's cool if you disagree... But... My thought's are far from ridiculous... I never said McGrady didn't create shot's for his teammate's, nor did I say they didn't miss lot's of those opportunities... What I'm saying is that AI and McGrady have similar role's on their respective team's... And both have recieved lot's of credit for their team's success, what do you expect to hear when McGrady's team is failing?... Possibly the same BS we heard when AI's team was failing?


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Eagle</b>!
> 
> LMAO... McGrady's had set up men and scorer's in his backcourt before... He know's how to do that already.


And he's still doing that. The difference now is that his teammates are missing the shots. "Making teammates better" involves using one's individual talent to open up easy opportunities for one's teammates. McGrady is doing that...his teammates are simply blowing those easy opportunities. There's nothing more any player in history could do.


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Eagle</b>!
> It's cool if you disagree... But... My thought's are far from ridiculous... I never said McGrady didn't create shot's for his teammate's, nor did I say they didn't miss lot's of those opportunities... What I'm saying is that AI and McGrady have similar role's on their respective team's... And both have recieved lot's of credit for their team's success, what do you expect to hear when McGrady's team is failing?... Possibly the same BS we heard when AI's team was failing?


Of course I expect to hear it. When it was Iverson, I was saying the same thing as I do with Tmac. People need to understand that theres more to basketball than stacking teams with good players, and if the system doesnt suit the teams strengths, the teams players will underachieve. The Magic have a poor system that doesnt get the best out of its players, and to top it off the players arent that good to begin with. The combination of those two things are the reason why they are 1 and whatever. But it seems that those two things have been overlooked completely and stacked on Tmacs shoulders.


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## Natty Dreadlockz

> The Magic have a poor system that doesnt get the best out of its players, and to top it off the players arent that good to begin with. The combination of those two things are the reason why they are 1 and whatever. But it seems that those two things have been overlooked completely and stacked on Tmacs shoulders.


I agree totally.


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## Natty Dreadlockz

> And he's still doing that. The difference now is that his teammates are missing the shots. "Making teammates better" involves using one's individual talent to open up easy opportunities for one's teammates. McGrady is doing that...his teammates are simply blowing those easy opportunities. There's nothing more any player in history could do.


Where did you read that I didn't think he was already doing those thing's?... Come on man, your disagree'n with me, before you even read my any of my thought's on the matter.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Eagle</b>!
> 
> Where did you read that I didn't think he was already doing those thing's?... Come on man, your disagree'n with me, before you even read my any of my thought's on the matter.


Honestly, though I've read your posts, I really have no idea what your opinion is. You seem to vaguely be criticizing McGrady, as compared to Iverson, but not really saying what your criticism is. But your line about Iverson's team being in first place and McGrady's team being in last place seemed to suggest that you attribute those team results, in some way, to the players.

So, I was building my case for why McGrady *isn't* responsible for his team's results.

If you'd care to distill your thesis into a clear statement, I'd be happy to read it and respond to it. What point *have* you been trying to make about McGrady and Ivy?


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## futuristxen

Why did it become suddenly absurd for Allen Iverson to be considered better than T-Mac and Kobe? AI had an off year last year and T-Mac and Kobe played better that season on the whole. But it's like just because of that, AI is suddenly second tier.

I suppose this is comparable to the type of slighting that Isiah Thomas got in his prime against the likes of Jordan, Magic, and Bird. Nobody has any respect for the little guy with skills and heart. No matter what he does. In Isiah's case he even won a few titles. Sure maybe when all is said and done, T-Mac and Kobe are going to be all-time great players...maybe. But Iverson is playing better than both of them this year and except for last year that has been the rule.

I think people are actually underrating Iverson at this point in his career. They've listened to one too many "expert" moan about Iverson's shot attempts and field goal percentage. They've listened to people who say that Iverson is a horrible defender.

Fact of the matter is, when Iverson is on the court he commands attention on both ends of the court, and no one in this league has ever proven that they can consistently can stop him when he has the ball in his hands. 

T-Mac was on the olympic team. And it wasn't T-Mac that people came away raving about. It was Iverson.

One definite edge Iverson has on T-Mac is stamina. T-mac was gassed tonight by midway through the 4th when his teammates needed him most. I've never seen Iverson get tired. It really has a negative impact on your teammates when they see their "leader" bent over and settling for jump shots because he's too tired to take it to the rack when they need the bucket.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> I suppose this is comparable to the type of slighting that Isiah Thomas got in his prime against the likes of Jordan, Magic, and Bird.


How is it a "slighting" to be placed behind those three guys? Isaiah, for all his greatness, *was* a step behind them.



> Nobody has any respect for the little guy with skills and heart. No matter what he does. In Isiah's case he even won a few titles.


I think you're vastly overstating your point. Nobody has *any* respect for Isaiah Thomas or Allen Iverson? I place Isaiah Thomas as the third greatest point guard ever (behind Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson) and I think Allen Iverson is a wonderful talent, a true superstar, which I don't attribute to very many players.

It's just that many people see Bryant's and McGrady's *combination* of size, quickness, hops, handles, slashing, post-up ability, passing and array of shots as potentially all-time great.

You simply cannot argue that Iverson has that entire arsenal. He has quickness in spades, more than the others, and you can argue equivalent handles and passing...but he lags behind in every other category (and, for all the shots he can hit, array of shots is included in that because he doesn't have consistency on them...10-28 is not a shocking line for Iverson).



> But Iverson is playing better than both of them this year and except for last year that has been the rule.


Iverson is playing better over a small sample this season. And I think most basketball people would argue that Bryant and McGrady have been better than Ivy for the last *two* years. Prior to that, comparisons are unreasonable because Iverson was a more polished (and older product) out of college, while Bryant and McGrady were still adapting to the league.

*At similar ages*, Iverson has not been superior to Bryant and McGrady, ever.



> One definite edge Iverson has on T-Mac is stamina. T-mac was gassed tonight by midway through the 4th when his teammates needed him most. I've never seen Iverson get tired.


I've seen Iverson tired. I've seen him near to collapsing. And I've seen the same from McGrady and Jordan and everyone. McGrady has taken it to the rack many times in the fourth quarter. I don't think it's true to characterize him just as a jump-shooter in the fourth quarter. In fact, I think McGrady attacks the hoop more than Iverson. Iverson all too often falls in love with the outside shot (which is a big reason for his terrible shooting lines).


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## Natty Dreadlockz

> Honestly, though I've read your posts, I really have no idea what your opinion is. You seem to vaguely be criticizing McGrady, as compared to Iverson, but not really saying what your criticism is.


Vaugely criticizing?... I've given McGrady more than his fair share of prop's in this thread.



> So, I was building my case for why McGrady isn't responsible for his team's results.


Never said he was the reason... But... As the star of the Magic, he'll face question's and criticism when thing's aren't going well... That's just the way it is, and alway's will be.


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## Natty Dreadlockz

> 10-28 is not a shocking line for Iverson.


It hasn't been all that shocking for McGrady to put up line's like that this season either.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Eagle</b>!
> 
> Never said he was the reason... But... As the star of the Magic, he'll face question's and criticism when thing's aren't going well... That's just the way it is, and alway's will be.


All right. I thought you were suggesting that it was his fault.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Eagle</b>!
> 
> It hasn't been all that shocking for McGrady to put up line's like that this season either.


He's having a worse year yet only shooting 2% lower than normal (43% vs. about 45% normally), so I'd say it's still pretty surprising if he were to put up a line like that.


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## jokeaward

T-Mac should come to Minny. Nobody really calls KG or T-Mac leaders, so they wouldn't have to worry about and could just have fun and win.


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## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>jokeaward</b>!
> T-Mac should come to Minny. Nobody really calls KG or T-Mac leaders, so they wouldn't have to worry about and could just have fun and win.


But then again, the Magic would even have a greater probability of going 1-81 or 2-80 if he left.


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## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> AI had to score 35 point for his team to win by 1 last night. Philly is at the top of the Atlantic division and he's doing it without much talent around him this season.



TMac scored 51 this season and his team lost.

What is the difference in these 2 players? The obvious comes to mind:
TMac is taller and younger.


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> It's just that many people see Bryant's and McGrady's *combination* of size, quickness, hops, handles, slashing, post-up ability, passing and array of shots as potentially all-time great.


So because of they're combination of all these factors this makes them better than AI. I could easily say that Larry Bird didnt have all of these attributes but that doesnt make Kobe and or Tmac better than him At the same time, AI doesnt have the size of either of those guys which he cant do anything about or the post up game so that makes him any less of a player or less of a player compared to those guys.



> You simply cannot argue that Iverson has that entire arsenal. He has quickness in spades, more than the others, and you can argue equivalent handles and passing...but he lags behind in every other category (and, for all the shots he can hit, array of shots is included in that because he doesn't have consistency on them...10-28 is not a shocking line for Iverson).


You right you cant argue it because he doesnt have the 2, but it seems to me you are downgrading his quickness in regards to it lasting over the course of a game. even if you are saying its moreso that the others. Tmac after watching him and studying him does not have the handle of Kobe and or AI. Also AI and kobe right now are better passers than TMac as well. AI does have an array of shots. I'm not certain exactly what you mean but I know he has a wide variety of ways he gets shots. He shoots about 41-42% on the regular but that doesnt take away from his consistency in putting the ball in the hole.



> Iverson is playing better over a small sample this season. And I think most basketball people would argue that Bryant and McGrady have been better than Ivy for the last *two* years. Prior to that, comparisons are unreasonable because Iverson was a more polished (and older product) out of college, while Bryant and McGrady were still adapting to the league.


I think that you are downplaying what AI is doing so far this season as if its something surprising that hes able to do this as if hes talent wise below these guys when thats just not the case. Also AI and Kobe came into the league at the same time Tmac a season later. They all have the same Pro tutelege(sp?) AI shouldnt be "penalized" because hes 2 years older. 



> *At similar ages*, Iverson has not been superior to Bryant and McGrady, ever.


 AI at 20 and 21 was superior to TMac. and he was superior to Kobe at 20



> I've seen Iverson tired. I've seen him near to collapsing. And I've seen the same from McGrady and Jordan and everyone. McGrady has taken it to the rack many times in the fourth quarter. I don't think it's true to characterize him just as a jump-shooter in the fourth quarter. In fact, I think McGrady attacks the hoop more than Iverson. Iverson all too often falls in love with the outside shot (which is a big reason for his terrible shooting lines).


I go to 76er games regularly and when i'm in Orlando I get to the Magic games and yeah McGrady attacks the basket slightly more than AI but McGrady recently as far back as the last half of last season and so far this season is shooting a lot of long jumpers and mid range jumpers than before. Once again watch 76ers games and it still happens, the sixers have the ball for a good portion of the shot clock AI is always moving, slashing,cutting when hes receiving the ball back hes somewhere roaming on the outside and he has to throw up shots with 2 or 3 seconds on the shot clock


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## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 1) has T-Mac ever step up his game in clutch situations? I mean the shot that decide the game outcome? Never!
> 
> 2) When your go-to guy cant step up in clutch, it will look like ur teammates are bad because you arent winning games. But come on, why dont the go to guy produce 2 or 3 times out of the 17 losses?????


Answer: The daily double...


Why don't you watch the first game vs the knicks of 03-04 season..


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 5) Vince Carter, Kobe, Iverson are the ones that can win a champiosnhip as a first scoring option, Pierce, T-mac will be good but not as good as the three above!


That is funny. Most people already consider both Tmac and Pierce to be better players than Vince. And many would also put Tmac and Pierce above AI, although not as many as Vince. 

But of course you know all, right?

:worship:


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> That is funny. Most people already consider both Tmac and Pierce to be better players than Vince. And many would also put Tmac and Pierce above AI, although not as many as Vince.
> 
> But of course you know all, right?
> 
> :worship:


I wouldnt take Pierce over AI


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## O2K

i never thought about it like that........ good point


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## Mattsanity

Why does every body add Vince to a conversation not even about him?


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> Why does every body add Vince to a conversation not even about him?


Seems like any conversation involving Kobe, Tmac, AI, Pierce, or Vince usually ends up with another guy being involved in the convo. Just like no one seems to be able to talk about Lebron without mentioning Carmelo, and vice versa.


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> TMac scored 51 this season and his team lost.
> 
> What is the difference in these 2 players? The obvious comes to mind:
> TMac is taller and younger.


This question is much deeper than what you see as obvious. 

What is it that makes Iverson a winner because it's more than just situational.


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## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> This question is much deeper than what you see as obvious.
> 
> What is it that makes Iverson a winner because it's more than just situational.


Well, its also maturity which comes with age, like it did with AI. Iverson has grown up a lot in the past few years and has a grip of whats going on now. Tmac has yet to do that. 

But I do think that Iverson was very fortunate to have Larry Brown, and Tmac hasnt been in the situation to have either a great coach or a great supporting cast. 

I think that Tmac does have some maturity issues to resolve, but if it werent for the failures of the franchise as a whole that arent his fault, those issues wouldnt be getting exposed so much right now.


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, its also maturity which comes with age, like it did with AI. Iverson has grown up a lot in the past few years and has a grip of whats going on now. Tmac has yet to do that.
> 
> But I do think that Iverson was very fortunate to have Larry Brown, and Tmac hasnt been in the situation to have either a great coach or a great supporting cast.
> 
> I think that Tmac does have some maturity issues to resolve, but if it werent for the failures of the franchise as a whole that arent his fault, those issues wouldnt be getting exposed so much right now.


Good post :yes:


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, its also maturity which comes with age, like it did with AI. Iverson has grown up a lot in the past few years and has a grip of whats going on now. Tmac has yet to do that.
> 
> But I do think that Iverson was very fortunate to have Larry Brown, and Tmac hasnt been in the situation to have either a great coach or a great supporting cast.
> 
> I think that Tmac does have some maturity issues to resolve, but if it werent for the failures of the franchise as a whole that arent his fault, those issues wouldnt be getting exposed so much right now.


I agree. Great post. Sums everything up pretty well. Every point is valid.


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## BallBiologist

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree. Great post. Sums everything up pretty well. Every point is valid.


Agreed


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## 33

To me, the difference b/t the 2 is that TMAC is bigger and stronger than AI. AI on the other hand is faster. AI can take 45 shot a game and no one on his team will complain....and that's win or lose. AI has rebounders (Delembert, K. Thomas, and Coleman) and a pass first PG in Snow. TMAC doesn't have too much help on the glass. Gooden is not a good rebounder and I don't even have to say anything about Juwan. Lue is a shoot first PG who is a backup on any other team in the NBA. In order for the Magic to win games, TMAC needs to take the Jason Kidd approach and try to get a triple double every game. He has to hit the glass, distribute the ball, and score in order for the Magic to win. AI plays the passing lanes better than any other player in the league. If I had to choose b/t the 2, I would take TMAC even though his team is slumming right now. AI is still a top 3 SG in the NBA


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## rebelsun

AI is 6'0 and has to work much harder most players. Granted, he is often one of the hardest working ones and is the reason for his success. He has to play at an extremely high level all the time, or he is not effective. He is probably the toughest player in the league.

Tracy is 6'8 and has the size and talent to be the best player ever, if he wants to. If he had Iverson's heart, he would be truly unstoppable.


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## 33

> If he had Iverson's heart, he would be truly unstoppable.


If anybody over 6`6 had AI's heart they would be unstoppable


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> To me, the difference b/t the 2 is that TMAC is bigger and stronger than AI. AI on the other hand is faster. AI can take 45 shot a game and no one on his team will complain....and that's win or lose. AI has rebounders (Delembert, K. Thomas, and Coleman) and a pass first PG in Snow. TMAC doesn't have too much help on the glass. Gooden is not a good rebounder and I don't even have to say anything about Juwan. Lue is a shoot first PG who is a backup on any other team in the NBA. In order for the Magic to win games, TMAC needs to take the Jason Kidd approach and try to get a triple double every game. He has to hit the glass, distribute the ball, and score in order for the Magic to win. AI plays the passing lanes better than any other player in the league. If I had to choose b/t the 2, I would take TMAC even though his team is slumming right now. AI is still a top 3 SG in the NBA


That is a good overall observation. I think last season when Orlando wasn't on a long losing streak most people would have conceeded to taking Tmac over AI. But now that the team, and Tmac, is losing, seems like more people are for AI.

I honestly think when I comes right down to it, very few GMs in the league would take AI over Tmac. Most people agree AI has more "heart" than Tmac, but you can't teach the extra 8 or 9 inches in height and the age difference.

I think Tmac is consciously trying to do more this year and he has done it pretty well. But since his ppg and shooting percentage has gone down, most people think he is playing terrible. His defense has been excellent this year, which most people have not noticed. He has shut a lot of guys down this year. Unfortunately Tmac made some stupid comments earlier this year that a lot of people are really holding against him.

If Iverson were 6'6" I think he'd be the best on the planet, but at this point, I would take Tmac no doubt.


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