# McGraw: Harrington Appearance a FA Audition



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/bulls.asp



> The Bulls will have room under the salary cap this summer for the first time since their celebrated “full-boat” free-agent quests of 2000 and 2001.
> 
> Back then, when the team was horrible, the arrival of a future free agent such as Tracy McGrady or Eddie Jones was one of the few highlights on the schedule.
> 
> ...


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## unBULLievable (Dec 13, 2002)

The fact that Reinsdorf was there,means that Al could be a Bull in a couple of weeks


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

unBULLievable said:


> The fact that Reinsdorf was there,means that Al could be a Bull in a couple of weeks


Jerry was there keeping an eye on the World Series Trophy, not Al. :biggrin:


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

unBULLievable said:


> The fact that Reinsdorf was there,means that Al could be a Bull in a couple of weeks



Yeah, JR said he would've traded all of his championships for one world series................I, too, think he was there watching over his most prized posession.

Also, JR shows up to a lot of games, it only means he's the owner and wants to watch a game with some friends.

Watch the Bulls' scouts and Pax's travels for clues.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

*The Bulls tried to trade for Harrington, a 6-foot-9 forward, in 2003 when he played for Indiana, but the Pacers wouldn’t accept an offer of the No. 7 draft pick.*

Is that a typo? Seems it would be Chicago, not Indiana, who wouldn't accept that offer.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

i recall they wanted the three pick, the pacers, since they wanted gordon.


and as far as harrington's "audition" - not terribly impressed over here.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

TheATLien said:


> *The Bulls tried to trade for Harrington, a 6-foot-9 forward, in 2003 when he played for Indiana, but the Pacers wouldn’t accept an offer of the No. 7 draft pick.*
> 
> Is that a typo? Seems it would be Chicago, not Indiana, who wouldn't accept that offer.


No, Pacers wanted the #3 pick (Gordon) rather than the #7 pick (Deng)


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> Al could be a Bull in a couple of weeks


I'd hope not.


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## jimmy (Aug 20, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> i recall they wanted the three pick, the pacers, since they wanted gordon.
> 
> 
> and as far as harrington's "audition" - not terribly impressed over here.


Yeah he didn't look too good last night but just think of what he could do with 2 real point guards.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

After last night, please take Al. It seemed like Atlanta played better when he was on the bench. Plus, it might even help develop Marvin's offense game sooner, even though they play different positions.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

My interest in Harrington is almost non-existent.

The last thing we need is a "power" forward that lobs up 65% jumpers and does not rebound. 

I want some offense in the paint and a guy that crashes the boards as the Bulls PF next season.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

oh come on guys. Let's consider two things. 

a) He was auditioning for the Bulls and admitted it to the press after the game so I bet nerves played a part in how he played.

b) Our suffocating defense was just to much for this kid. :tongue:

c) He's having career numbers in points and averaging 7 boards a game. Let's look at all his games and not just the one he played tonight. Sure he's inconsistent but he's still a solid starter for his team.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Its not just last night's sad performance. Its his style of play. Perhaps he'd change it on the Bulls...

7 boards a game in 37.4 minutes is not good for a power forward.

His rebound rate is right around Songalia, Deng and Noc.

Worse than Othella.

Much worse than Curry for the Knicks.

And... he does not do his scoring on the inside, which is what I think we need more of. 

We have plenty of jump shooting tweeners in Songo, Deng and Noc.

I want a power forward.


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## jimmy (Aug 20, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> My interest in Harrington is almost non-existent.
> 
> The last thing we need is a "power" forward that lobs up 65% jumpers and does not rebound.
> 
> I want some offense in the paint and a guy that crashes the boards as the Bulls PF next season.



Is he a FA this summer?


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Al Harrington plays power forward on offense for the most part, and small forward on defense. On most nights, Josh Smith is Atlanta's main post defender. Which is not a good thing to have, but Al plays a lot of perimeter is the point I am making. He is extremey inconsistent and I don't think thats going to change anytime soon.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

jimmy said:


> Is he a FA this summer?


Restricted.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

His rebounding rate was much better in Indy than in Atlanta. If he's told to defend the perimeter for the Hawks, that would obviously have something to do with it. Harrington's career rebounding rate (11.5) is about the same as Rasheed Wallace's (11.8).

Harrington would be a good player on the Bulls.

30 mpg/13 pts/7 reb is about what I would expect.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

k,

Where can I get that breakdown of perimeter vs. inside shots you're talking about?


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> 30 mpg/13 pts/7 reb is about what I would expect.


If he provided that at the money that he's after, I'd cry.
Currently this season he's averaging 18/7, if he can't atleast continue that I don't want anything to do with him.
So far I'd rather Gooden over Al


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> His rebounding rate was much better in Indy than in Atlanta. If he's told to defend the perimeter for the Hawks, that would obviously have something to do with it. Harrington's career rebounding rate (11.5) is about the same as Rasheed Wallace's (11.8).
> 
> Harrington would be a good player on the Bulls.
> 
> 30 mpg/13 pts/7 reb is about what I would expect.


However signs Al will be making a massive overpayment for that type of production given he is not a very good defender. Certainly, not close to Rasheeds's level.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

I'd rather have Gooden, too. But Harrington is a fine player.

I don't agree with him being a poor defender.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> The Bulls tried to trade for Harrington, a 6-foot-9 forward, in 2003


I think this is playing too much of a part in many of the articles, considering that our interest in him was for his natural position, rather than as a PF.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> k,
> 
> Where can I get that breakdown of perimeter vs. inside shots you're talking about?


Probably looking at 82games:

Harrington:
Shot selection <table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="290"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#e5e5e5"> <td bgcolor="#33cc33" width="50"><center>*Shot*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Att.*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*eFG%*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Ast'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Blk'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Pts*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Jump</center></td> <td align="right"> 62% </td> <td align="right">.403 </td> <td align="right"> 62% </td> <td align="right"> 3% </td> <td align="right"> 7.9 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Close</center></td> <td align="right"> 32% </td> <td align="right">.558 </td> <td align="right"> 39% </td> <td align="right"> 12% </td> <td align="right"> 5.6 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Dunk</center></td> <td align="right"> 5% </td> <td align="right">.966 </td> <td align="right"> 71% </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 1.4 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Tips</center></td> <td align="right"> 2% </td> <td align="right">.800 </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0.4 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td><center>Inside</center></td> <td align="right"> 38% </td> <td align="right">.618 </td> <td align="right"> 43% </td> <td align="right"> 10% </td> <td align="right"> 7.3 </td></tr></tbody></table>
Gooden:
Shot selection <table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="290"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#e5e5e5"> <td bgcolor="#33cc33" width="50"><center>*Shot*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Att.*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*eFG%*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Ast'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Blk'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Pts*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Jump</center></td> <td align="right"> 39% </td> <td align="right">.447 </td> <td align="right"> 61% </td> <td align="right"> 7% </td> <td align="right"> 2.8 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Close</center></td> <td align="right"> 40% </td> <td align="right">.528 </td> <td align="right"> 54% </td> <td align="right"> 12% </td> <td align="right"> 3.3 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Dunk</center></td> <td align="right"> 12% </td> <td align="right">.921 </td> <td align="right"> 71% </td> <td align="right"> 3% </td> <td align="right"> 1.8 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Tips</center></td> <td align="right"> 9% </td> <td align="right">.500 </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0.7 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td><center>Inside</center></td> <td align="right"> 61% </td> <td align="right">.603 </td> <td align="right"> 53% </td> <td align="right"> 8% </td> <td align="right"> 5.8 </td></tr></tbody></table>


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

TheATLien said:


> After last night, please take Al. It seemed like Atlanta played better when he was on the bench. Plus, it might even help develop Marvin's offense game sooner, even though they play different positions.


What position do you see Marvin playing long term? Can he coexist with Smith?

BTW, our announcer Larivee was singing William's praises last night. He said he thinks he is going to be better than Bogut down the line.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Gooden seems soft to me. Very soft. Harrington seems to have the potential to be a warrior. I was watching him last night and it seems like he is just annoyed with his situation in Atlanta. I could see him being a very good fit on our team. The offense we run has alot of shots available on the outside and could really use something on the inside. He is very active and Skiles would really get the best out of him.

A big part of our defense is versatility and switching off. Nocioni guards the 3 and 4 positions. Deng guards the 2 and 3 positions. Hinrich, Duhon, Gordon guard the 1 and 2 positions. Chandler guads the 4 and 5 positions. You also have to remember the type of power forwards in the NBA. They are more mobile (Nowitzki, Garnett, O'Neal, Gasol, Bosh, Jamison, Randolph, Brand) and they get alot of shots from 15-18 feet and use a more slashing style on the inside. Even Karl Malone was a jump shooting / slashing type of power forward. Only Duncan is more post oriented. 

Baby Al would be fine as our PF. Songaila (6'8"), Sweetney (6'8"), Othella (6'9") have the same build and height as Al. Al is just alot more mobile and a better shooter.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

My son and I watched the game last night. I was not impressed with Al at all. Was it nerves? Was it our defense? I dont know. I know it was just one game, but he didnt do it for me.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> BTW, our announcer Larivee was singing William's praises last night. He said he thinks he is going to be better than Bogut down the line.


Larivee, you mean that great evaluator of talent? I guess he has to be good at something, since he sucks at calling a basketball game. During last night's game both Red and Wayne were brutal, both would start talking then lose their train of thought.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

L.O.B said:


> Larivee, you mean that great evaluator of talent? I guess he has to be good at something, since he sucks at calling a basketball game. During last night's game both Red and Wayne were brutal, both would start talking then lose their train of thought.


Johnny called Joe Johnson Joe Jackson before the game began.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I see we're comparing Drew Gooden and Al Harrington. Let me jump in on this.

First off, these guys are in TOTALLY different situations. Drew Gooden is on a good team with one of the league's premier players (LeBron). He also plays alongside one of the NBA's biggest and most skilled big men (Ilgauskas). Gooden was a borderline bum in Memphis and Orlando, until he found a situation that could open things up for him. You don't think LeBron and Big Z have alot to do with all his dunks, tip-ins, and easy shots near the basket? The Cavs are on right now on ABC...go ahead and watch how the Suns' defense reacts to LeBron, and see how much space Gooden has to work with.

With that said, I still like Drew Gooden and would be open to signing him this summer, but it would take alot of convincing for me to think that he is better than Al Harrington.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

yodurk said:


> I see we're comparing Drew Gooden and Al Harrington. Let me jump in on this.
> 
> First off, these guys are in TOTALLY different situations. Drew Gooden is on a good team with one of the league's premier players (LeBron). He also plays alongside one of the NBA's biggest and most skilled big men (Ilgauskas). Gooden was a borderline bum in Memphis and Orlando, until he found a situation that could open things up for him. You don't think LeBron and Big Z have alot to do with all his dunks, tip-ins, and easy shots near the basket? The Cavs are on right now on ABC...go ahead and watch how the Suns' defense reacts to LeBron, and see how much space Gooden has to work with.
> 
> With that said, I still like Drew Gooden and would be open to signing him this summer, but it would take alot of convincing for me to think that he is better than Al Harrington.


But at least Gooden is a real PF and rebounds. That's important for us. 

I'm not too high on either of them actually.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

truebluefan said:


> My son and I watched the game last night. I was not impressed with Al at all. Was it nerves? Was it our defense? I dont know. I know it was just one game, but he didnt do it for me.


Just more random thoughts about Al. If you compare Al and Rasheed, you would have to give the slight edge to Al. Anybody on this board would love to have Rasheed at the 4, why not Al? Al is shooting 39% from 3 point range. What we really need is a good backup center. Maybe we could get AD back along with Al. Remember AD let Al live at his house when he an 18 year old rookie with Indiana. Any talk of Drew Gooden should be immediately squashed. He is a 11 ppg player.

C - Chandler, AD
PF - Al, Songaila, Othella / Sweetney
SF - Deng, Nocioni
SG - Gordon
PG - Hinrich, Duhon

Use the draft picks on whatever we need (rebounding big man or taller shooting guard). That would be a 50 win minimum team having Al, Deng, Gordon and Hinrich on the floor would be a nightmare for any team to guard.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

I'll just go ahead and right it again in this thread. Al Harrington is my #1 choice out of the non-Ben Wallace free agency pool this summer. 

Then go for Nazr or Pryz and call it a summer.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Gooden is a PF. Al Harrington is not, IMO. At least not the kind we need. We have plenty of soft, jump shooting PFs. Harrington is an OK player… just not the type of player we need IMO.

Sure, better teammates help, but Gooden was also allowed to play PF full time in Clev. The guy has been a better rebounder than Harrington his entire career.

If we're going to dump a ton of money on someone, I'd rather it be Gooden, given that we have Deng and Noc. 

We don't need another jump shooting, average rebounding big man, IMO. Too each their own though. Harrington could improve his game here and become an rebounder/inside player more than a jump shooter, but I really don't see why that's a legitimate assumption. 

If I were Pax, I’d throw the money Gooden’s way over Harrington’s. If the Cavs really don’t like him much they shouldn’t match.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

Mikedc said:


> Probably looking at 82games:
> 
> Harrington:
> Shot selection <table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="290"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#e5e5e5"> <td bgcolor="#33cc33" width="50"><center>*Shot*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Att.*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*eFG%*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Ast'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Blk'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Pts*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Jump</center></td> <td align="right"> 62% </td> <td align="right">.403 </td> <td align="right"> 62% </td> <td align="right"> 3% </td> <td align="right"> 7.9 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Close</center></td> <td align="right"> 32% </td> <td align="right">.558 </td> <td align="right"> 39% </td> <td align="right"> 12% </td> <td align="right"> 5.6 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Dunk</center></td> <td align="right"> 5% </td> <td align="right">.966 </td> <td align="right"> 71% </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 1.4 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Tips</center></td> <td align="right"> 2% </td> <td align="right">.800 </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0.4 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td><center>Inside</center></td> <td align="right"> 38% </td> <td align="right">.618 </td> <td align="right"> 43% </td> <td align="right"> 10% </td> <td align="right"> 7.3 </td></tr></tbody></table>
> ...


Thanks for the stats Mike.

I think the Asst % is interesting. While Gooden seems to take more shots from the inside, many of those close/dunk baskets are created for him by teammates (i.e. Lebron). Harrington doesn't have that.

As far as creating their own shot from the low post, maybe there's not that much difference between the two?


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Let's not forget about Nene. Coming off his injury, his market value will be down. If he looks like he can play, I want him more than Harrington or Gooden.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

Rasheed Wallace's shot selection:
Jump - 82%
Close - 11%
Dunk - 5%
Tip - 2%

Wallace is obviously a better player than Harrington, but they are pretty similar (Wallace having a distinct advantage in blocks).

Harrington's rebounding rate will improve when he doesn't have to defend perimeter players.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> Harrington's rebounding rate will improve when he doesn't have to defend perimeter players.


What % of his time on the court does Harrington guard "perimeter" players?

Has this been Harrington's excuse for being a poor to average rebounder his entire career? In both Indy and Atlanta?


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> What % of his time on the court does Harrington guard "perimeter" players?


I don't know as I don't watch Hawks games. I'm just going by what ATLien posted earlier in the thread:



> Al Harrington plays power forward on offense for the most part, and small forward on defense. On most nights, Josh Smith is Atlanta's main post defender. Which is not a good thing to have, but Al plays a lot of perimeter is the point I am making.





> Has this been Harrington's excuse for being a poor to average rebounder his entire career? In both Indy and Atlanta?


Harrington has been an average rebounder in his career. His rebounding rate dipped when coming to Atlanta. I'm assuming it's because he's forced to play out of position.

Even with all that said, Harrington's career rebounding rate is equal to Rasheed Wallace's, and his rebounding rate last season in Atlanta was better than that of a freakishly athletic Center with the Bulls.

Would you not take a player of Rasheed Wallace's talent on the Bulls?

And why has rebounding rate become such a concern in regards to Harrington, when it wasn't one in the past?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> Thanks for the stats Mike.
> 
> I think the Asst % is interesting. While Gooden seems to take more shots from the inside, many of those close/dunk baskets are created for him by teammates (i.e. Lebron). Harrington doesn't have that.
> 
> As far as creating their own shot from the low post, maybe there's not that much difference between the two?


De nada...

I started wondering about this myself, so here's their stats going back a couple years:

*Harrington 04-05 (Atlanta)*
Shot selection <table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="290"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#e5e5e5"> <td bgcolor="#33cc33" width="50"><center>*Shot*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Att.*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*eFG%*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Ast'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Blk'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Pts*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Jump</center></td> <td align="right"> 55% </td> <td align="right">.356 </td> <td align="right"> 41% </td> <td align="right"> 5% </td> <td align="right"> 5.9 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Close</center></td> <td align="right"> 34% </td> <td align="right">.518 </td> <td align="right"> 46% </td> <td align="right"> 14% </td> <td align="right"> 5.2 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Dunk</center></td> <td align="right"> 8% </td> <td align="right">.988 </td> <td align="right"> 71% </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 2.4 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Tips</center></td> <td align="right"> 3% </td> <td align="right">.538 </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0.4 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td><center>Inside</center></td> <td align="right"> 45% </td> <td align="right">.605 </td> <td align="right"> 51% </td> <td align="right"> 11% </td> <td align="right"> 8.1 </td></tr></tbody></table>
*Rebounding* <table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="600"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#33cc33"> <td width="60"><center>*Off
Rebounds*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Off. Reb
Chances*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Off. Reb
Pct*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team Off
Reb%*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def
Rebounds*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def. Reb
Chances*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def. Reb
Pct*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team Def
Reb%*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Player
Rating*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team FT
Rating*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center> 145 </center></td> <td><center> 2521 </center></td> <td align="center"> 5.8%</td> <td align="center"> 32.7%</td> <td><center> 316 </center></td> <td><center> 2250 </center></td> <td align="center"> 14.0%</td> <td align="center"> 70.5%</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#ffffcc"> 19.8</td> <td align="center">103.2</td></tr></tbody></table>
*Harrington 03-04 (Indiana)*
Shot selection <table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="290"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#e5e5e5"> <td bgcolor="#33cc33" width="50"><center>*Shot*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Att.*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*eFG%*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Ast'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Blk'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Pts*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Jump</center></td> <td align="right"> 65% </td> <td align="right">.415 </td> <td align="right"> 64% </td> <td align="right"> 5% </td> <td align="right"> 6.2 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Close</center></td> <td align="right"> 25% </td> <td align="right">.466 </td> <td align="right"> 54% </td> <td align="right"> 23% </td> <td align="right"> 2.6 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Dunk</center></td> <td align="right"> 7% </td> <td align="right">.992 </td> <td align="right"> 72% </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 1.7 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Tips</center></td> <td align="right"> 3% </td> <td align="right">.615 </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0.4 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td><center>Inside</center></td> <td align="right"> 35% </td> <td align="right">.589 </td> <td align="right"> 56% </td> <td align="right"> 16% </td> <td align="right"> 4.7 </td></tr></tbody></table>
*Rebounding* <table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="600"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#33cc33"> <td width="60"><center>*Off
Rebounds*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Off. Reb
Chances*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Off. Reb
Pct*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team Off
Reb%*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def
Rebounds*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def. Reb
Chances*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def. Reb
Pct*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team Def
Reb%*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Player
Rating*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team FT
Rating*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center> 163 </center></td> <td><center> 2358 </center></td> <td align="center"> 6.9%</td> <td align="center"> 32.1%</td> <td><center> 345 </center></td> <td><center> 2239 </center></td> <td align="center"> 15.4%</td> <td align="center"> 70.5%</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#ffffcc"> 22.3</td> <td align="center">102.6</td></tr></tbody></table>
*Harrington 02-03 (Indiana)*
Shot selection <table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="290"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#e5e5e5"> <td bgcolor="#33cc33" width="50"><center>*Shot*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Att.*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*eFG%*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Ast'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Blk'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Pts*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Jump</center></td> <td align="right"> 68% </td> <td align="right">.390 </td> <td align="right"> 57% </td> <td align="right"> 5% </td> <td align="right"> 5.8 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Close</center></td> <td align="right"> 26% </td> <td align="right">.479 </td> <td align="right"> 50% </td> <td align="right"> 21% </td> <td align="right"> 2.7 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Dunk</center></td> <td align="right"> 4% </td> <td align="right">.939 </td> <td align="right"> 81% </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0.8 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Tips</center></td> <td align="right"> 2% </td> <td align="right">.778 </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0.3 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td><center>Inside</center></td> <td align="right"> 32% </td> <td align="right">.551 </td> <td align="right"> 52% </td> <td align="right"> 18% </td> <td align="right"> 3.8 </td></tr></tbody></table>
*Rebounding* <table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="600"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#33cc33"> <td width="60"><center>*Off
Rebounds*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Off. Reb
Chances*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Off. Reb
Pct*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team Off
Reb%*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def
Rebounds*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def. Reb
Chances*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def. Reb
Pct*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team Def
Reb%*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Player
Rating*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team FT
Rating*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center> 153 </center></td> <td><center> 2594 </center></td> <td align="center"> 5.9%</td> <td align="center"> 31.0%</td> <td><center> 358 </center></td> <td><center> 2594 </center></td> <td align="center"> 13.8%</td> <td align="center"> 71.7%</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#ffffcc"> 19.7</td> <td align="center">102.7</td></tr></tbody></table>
Gooden 04-05 (Cleveland)

Shot selection <table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="290"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#e5e5e5"> <td bgcolor="#33cc33" width="50"><center>*Shot*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Att.*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*eFG%*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Ast'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Blk'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Pts*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Jump</center></td> <td align="right"> 51% </td> <td align="right">.373 </td> <td align="right"> 72% </td> <td align="right"> 7% </td> <td align="right"> 4.4 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Close</center></td> <td align="right"> 37% </td> <td align="right">.549 </td> <td align="right"> 66% </td> <td align="right"> 14% </td> <td align="right"> 4.7 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Dunk</center></td> <td align="right"> 9% </td> <td align="right">.939 </td> <td align="right"> 79% </td> <td align="right"> 2% </td> <td align="right"> 1.9 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Tips</center></td> <td align="right"> 4% </td> <td align="right">.571 </td> <td align="right"> 5% </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0.5 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td><center>Inside</center></td> <td align="right"> 49% </td> <td align="right">.619 </td> <td align="right"> 65% </td> <td align="right"> 11% </td> <td align="right"> 7.0 </td></tr></tbody></table>
*Rebounding* <table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="600"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#33cc33"> <td width="60"><center>*Off
Rebounds*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Off. Reb
Chances*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Off. Reb
Pct*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team Off
Reb%*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def
Rebounds*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def. Reb
Chances*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def. Reb
Pct*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team Def
Reb%*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Player
Rating*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team FT
Rating*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center> 208 </center></td> <td><center> 2429 </center></td> <td align="center"> 8.6%</td> <td align="center"> 33.6%</td> <td><center> 545 </center></td> <td><center> 2372 </center></td> <td align="center"> 23.0%</td> <td align="center"> 70.0%</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#ffffcc"> 31.5</td> <td align="center">103.5</td></tr></tbody></table>*
Gooden 03-04 (Orlando)*

Shot selection <table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="290"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#e5e5e5"> <td bgcolor="#33cc33" width="50"><center>*Shot*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Att.*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*eFG%*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Ast'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Blk'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Pts*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Jump</center></td> <td align="right"> 57% </td> <td align="right">.379 </td> <td align="right"> 62% </td> <td align="right"> 5% </td> <td align="right"> 4.5 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Close</center></td> <td align="right"> 33% </td> <td align="right">.502 </td> <td align="right"> 55% </td> <td align="right"> 14% </td> <td align="right"> 3.5 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Dunk</center></td> <td align="right"> 6% </td> <td align="right">.894 </td> <td align="right"> 57% </td> <td align="right"> 4% </td> <td align="right"> 1.1 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Tips</center></td> <td align="right"> 4% </td> <td align="right">.433 </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0.3 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td><center>Inside</center></td> <td align="right"> 43% </td> <td align="right">.548 </td> <td align="right"> 52% </td> <td align="right"> 12% </td> <td align="right"> 4.9 </td></tr></tbody></table>
*Rebounding* <table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="600"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#33cc33"> <td width="60"><center>*Off
Rebounds*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Off. Reb
Chances*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Off. Reb
Pct*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team Off
Reb%*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def
Rebounds*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def. Reb
Chances*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def. Reb
Pct*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team Def
Reb%*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Player
Rating*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team FT
Rating*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center> 161 </center></td> <td><center> 2240 </center></td> <td align="center"> 7.2%</td> <td align="center"> 32.3%</td> <td><center> 355 </center></td> <td><center> 2041 </center></td> <td align="center"> 17.4%</td> <td align="center"> 63.5%</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#ffffcc"> 24.6</td> <td align="center"> 95.8</td></tr></tbody></table>
Gooden 02-03 (Orlando)
Shot selection <table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="290"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#e5e5e5"> <td bgcolor="#33cc33" width="50"><center>*Shot*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Att.*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*eFG%*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Ast'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Blk'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Pts*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Jump</center></td> <td align="right"> 48% </td> <td align="right">.371 </td> <td align="right"> 56% </td> <td align="right"> 9% </td> <td align="right"> 3.8 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Close</center></td> <td align="right"> 40% </td> <td align="right">.568 </td> <td align="right"> 57% </td> <td align="right"> 12% </td> <td align="right"> 4.8 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Dunk</center></td> <td align="right"> 7% </td> <td align="right">.867 </td> <td align="right"> 85% </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 1.4 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Tips</center></td> <td align="right"> 4% </td> <td align="right">.625 </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0.5 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td><center>Inside</center></td> <td align="right"> 52% </td> <td align="right">.615 </td> <td align="right"> 58% </td> <td align="right"> 10% </td> <td align="right"> 6.7 </td></tr></tbody></table>
*Rebounding* <table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="600"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#33cc33"> <td width="60"><center>*Off
Rebounds*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Off. Reb
Chances*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Off. Reb
Pct*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team Off
Reb%*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def
Rebounds*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def. Reb
Chances*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def. Reb
Pct*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team Def
Reb%*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Player
Rating*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team FT
Rating*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center> 47 </center></td> <td><center> 561 </center></td> <td align="center"> 8.4%</td> <td align="center"> 27.5%</td> <td><center> 113 </center></td> <td><center> 558 </center></td> <td align="center"> 20.3%</td> <td align="center"> 74.7%</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#ffffcc"> 28.6</td> <td align="center">102.2</td></tr></tbody></table>
Gooden 02-03 (Memphis)
Shot selection <table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="290"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#e5e5e5"> <td bgcolor="#33cc33" width="50"><center>*Shot*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Att.*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*eFG%*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Ast'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Blk'd*</center></td> <td width="48"><center>*Pts*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Jump</center></td> <td align="right"> 65% </td> <td align="right">.408 </td> <td align="right"> 69% </td> <td align="right"> 6% </td> <td align="right"> 6.0 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Close</center></td> <td align="right"> 28% </td> <td align="right">.482 </td> <td align="right"> 63% </td> <td align="right"> 15% </td> <td align="right"> 3.1 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Dunk</center></td> <td align="right"> 3% </td> <td align="right">.938 </td> <td align="right"> 53% </td> <td align="right"> 6% </td> <td align="right"> 0.6 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center>Tips</center></td> <td align="right"> 3% </td> <td align="right">.750 </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0% </td> <td align="right"> 0.6 </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td><center>Inside</center></td> <td align="right"> 35% </td> <td align="right">.545 </td> <td align="right"> 53% </td> <td align="right"> 13% </td> <td align="right"> 4.3 </td></tr></tbody></table>
*Rebounding* <table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="600"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#33cc33"> <td width="60"><center>*Off
Rebounds*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Off. Reb
Chances*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Off. Reb
Pct*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team Off
Reb%*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def
Rebounds*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def. Reb
Chances*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Def. Reb
Pct*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team Def
Reb%*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Player
Rating*</center></td> <td width="60"><center>*Team FT
Rating*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center> 86 </center></td> <td><center> 1342 </center></td> <td align="center"> 6.4%</td> <td align="center"> 27.7%</td> <td><center> 209 </center></td> <td><center> 1438 </center></td> <td align="center"> 14.5%</td> <td align="center"> 68.4%</td> <td align="center" bgcolor="#ffffcc"> 20.9</td> <td align="center"> 96.1</td></tr></tbody></table>
There's some interesting points to look at here. first, the real difference seems to be in rebounding:

Gooden's rebounder ratings are 33/31.5/24.6/28.6/20.9
Harrington's rebounder ratings are 20.7/19.8/22.3/19.7

Gooden is pretty clearly a better rebounder. Only the first half of his first season (02-03 in Memphis) is rates out as worse than any of Harrington's efforts. 

I think this is a pretty telling point for how these guys like to play.

Historically the shot selection doesn't tell me a whole lot:

Inside/outside shot %
Harrington
05: 38/62 (Atlanta)
04: 45/55 (Atlanta)
03: 35/65 (Indiana)
02: 32/62 (Indiana)

Gooden
05: 61/39 (Cleveland)
04: 49/51 (Cleveland)
03: 43/57 (Orlando)
02: 52/48 (Orlando)
02: 35/65 (Memphis)

Just based on watching them play, it looks to me like Gooden is the guy who plays inside more, but the difference isn't all that big.

The height and rebounding differences are pretty substantial though, and they point to Gooden being pretty effective for us. Harrington's going to be harder to make fit. I've watched this guy for several years now and most every good moment he's had has been playing at the 3. When I've seen him abused, it's been when he was playing at the 4. I just don't see a lot of logic in paying a guy big money and then not using him right.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> I don't know as I don't watch Hawks games. I'm just going by what ATLien posted earlier in the thread:


Ah, OK. You don't know. I was wondering what on earth you were basing your opinion on.


Al Harrington is a far cry from Rasheed Wallace, as you've admitted. 

If Harrington produced like Wallace does on both ends of the court, the lack of inside scoring and rebounding would be more forgivable. But, he does not, so I don’t see why we should break the bank for an average, jump shooting, poor rebounding “power” forward. 

But, to each their own. Perhaps Al Harrington is your kind of player.

My main complaints about Harrington are twofold.
1.) Lack of inside scoring
2.) Lack of rebounding

EDIT: You can also add getting to the FT line... which is another area where Harrington struggles. Must be settling for all those jumpers.

Curry excelled at the first, BTW... and the FT attempts.


The main complaints about the team this year are lack of inside presense and issues with getting to the FT line. I don't see how adding Harrington helps us here. 

If we didn’t have Deng we would need this guy more.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> The height and rebounding differences are pretty substantial though, and they point to Gooden being pretty effective for us. Harrington's going to be harder to make fit. I've watched this guy for several years now and most every good moment he's had has been playing at the 3. When I've seen him abused, it's been when he was playing at the 4. I just don't see a lot of logic in paying a guy big money and then not using him right.


Nice report.

I agree with this. Harrington is not a good fit for what we need. Does not make a lot of sense to target this guy.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Nice report.
> 
> I agree with this. Harrington is not a good fit for what we need. Does not make a lot of sense to target this guy.


And yet, when there's smoke, there's fire. I bet Paxson is interested. I just hope he's not too interested.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Just to start a different approach to the Al Harrington conversation, who is the type of PF we need? 

Let's list some PF that I consider good:
Nowitzki (shooter/slasher, averages only 8 rpg (same as Al)
Duncan (classic post up PF)
Brand (good mix of shooting, slashing, posting)
Bosh (shooter/slasher, only 9 rpg)
J. O'Neal (shooter/slasher)
Garnett (shooter/slasher)
Marion (slasher)
Gasol (slasher, post up, only 9 rpg)
Webber (shooter/post up, 10 rpg)
Okur (shooter, 9.5 rpg)
Jamison (shooter/slasher 10 rpg)
Randolph (shooter/post up, 8.5 rpg)
Murphy (shooter 9 rpg)
Wallace (shooter, 7 rpg)
Howard (post up, 13 rpg)
Okafor (post up, 12 rpg)

There are very few classic rebound / defense first power forwards in the NBA. Most are mobile, agile shooters and slashers of which Nowitzki is the best. When people say we don't need someone like that, it's a bit crazy. 

Al is not a top rebounder on the PF position. However, we don't need that. We have some of the best rebounding small forwards in Deng and Noc and Chandler (when playing normally) is a top 10 rebounder at center.

Harrington started the season playing on the interior and average 8.5rpg. Lately he has guarded alot of different players since they are trying to get Marvin Williams, Josh Smith and others into the flow. In Indiana, he only played small forward.

The key is Al is not a jump shooting PF. He can post and slash and get to the rim. Drew Gooden? So you are willling to trade 19 ppg and 8 rpg for 11 ppg and 10 rpg? Please.

Nene would be nice, but he is a center and he has played 80, 77, 55, 1 games in the last four years. That is not a replacement for a 19/8 guy.

Also remember, Curry is a 15/6 guy and we all complain how much we miss him.

Al > Rasheed > Gooden


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> The height and rebounding differences are pretty substantial though, and they point to Gooden being pretty effective for us. Harrington's going to be harder to make fit. I've watched this guy for several years now and most every good moment he's had has been playing at the 3. When I've seen him abused, it's been when he was playing at the 4. I just don't see a lot of logic in paying a guy big money and then not using him right.


This is sort of how I feel too.

I think Al Harrington is a situational PF, so if you're going to commit to playing him there, you'll eventually run into matchup problems that you'll have to compensate for. IMO, I think he'll always have problems with the bigger PF/C types, both offensively and defensively, which is a weakness that Drew Gooden doesn't have, and considering our team, that's a pretty sizeable advantage. 

In terms of playing a big man's game, I think Drew's got Al beat, hands down. He's not Duncan, but there's a tangible difference between the two. I don't see Al Harrington as a guy that will ever be able to impose his will on good/big frontcourts from the PF position, whereas Drew Gooden has a reasonable capacity to do it............when he feels like it.

In terms of fit, the only place where Al clearly has Drew beat is upstairs, it would seem. Just going off of his public perception, I can easily DG being a regular member in Skiles' doghouse and it being a cause of dischord and confusion in the locker room. But in Gooden's case, being that he is a better fit basketball wise, I think it'd be foolish not to look a little more closely and see how much of his reputation is really true. From what I can tell, he's had a pretty decent year in Cleveland, and the times I've watched he's always looked alright.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> Al Harrington is a far cry from Rasheed Wallace, as you've admitted.
> 
> If Harrington produced like Wallace does on both ends of the court, the lack of inside scoring and rebounding would be more forgivable. But, he does not, so I don’t see why we should break the bank for an average, jump shooting, poor rebounding “power” forward.


I never said that Harrington is a far cry from Wallace. They're pretty similar but Wallace is better, not significantly better. 

Jump shooting, poor rebounding "power" forward is a good description of Wallace if that's what you’re going to use for Harrington. I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say Harrington doesn't produce "like Wallace does on both ends of the court" since their production is about the same. 

Harrington has a higher turnover ratio, likely resulting from him being one of only two effective players on the court. Al has a higher number of FT attempts, which you highlighted as important.

Actually, if anything, Harrington is a statistically better player.



> The main complaints about the team this year are lack of inside presense and issues with getting to the FT line. I don't see how adding Harrington helps us here.


Harrington is pretty good at getting to the line for a non-superstar player. His 4.8 FTA per game would lead the Bulls and would be 2nd to Chauncey Billups on the Pistons. I can't see how FTA's can be used against Harrington when he gets to the line more than Drew Gooden (3.6 attempts per).

Inside presence can be addressed by signing Nazr, or Przybilla, or using the draft picks. 

Harrington is a PF and a productive player. I would say that is something we're missing.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

lougehrig said:


> There are very few classic rebound / defense first power forwards in the NBA. Most are mobile, agile shooters and slashers of which Nowitzki is the best. When people say we don't need someone like that, it's a bit crazy.
> 
> Al is not a top rebounder on the PF position. However, we don't need that. We have some of the best rebounding small forwards in Deng and Noc and Chandler (when playing normally) is a top 10 rebounder at center.
> 
> ...


I agree with the gist of what you say. 

Honestly, I think Harrington is being ragged on by many because he's emerging as Paxson's "obvious" target in free agency. Otherwise, Pax might actually have to be given some credit for signing a good player. 

Still, Gooden isn't bad himself, and he's pretty equal to Harrington in my book.

EDIT: Good call on the rebounding. His average, as you noted, was 8.4 in the first month of the season.


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## dsouljah9 (Jul 9, 2002)

*Drew Gooden:
*
11.2 ppg

8.8 RPG

*Harrington:
*
18.7 ppg

7 RPG


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> What position do you see Marvin playing long term? Can he coexist with Smith?
> 
> BTW, our announcer Larivee was singing William's praises last night. He said he thinks he is going to be better than Bogut down the line.


Marvin Williams is as pure a small forward as you can find. I don't think there is much doubt that is his position. Even Atlanta's GM has made that clear. Josh Smith is a whole nother case. He really doesn't have much of an offensive game. He is a good post defender and weakside shot blocker. Josh has said himself the player he trys to pattern himself after is Andre Kirilenko. He is not quite there yet obviously, lol. 

I think Marvin has the much brighter future. Though, it remains to be seen if Josh Smith can coexist with Marvin (not the other way around). Every month, Marvin has gotten a little better so I don't think it's fair to label him a bust yet.

You don't need all this fancy graphics to determine Al is no Sheed. lol, I could tell you that.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> I agree with the gist of what you say.
> 
> Honestly, I think Harrington is being ragged on by many because he's emerging as Paxson's "obvious" target in free agency. Otherwise, Pax might actually have to be given some credit for signing a good player.
> 
> ...



I think Pax obvious target is Joel P or Nene myself but we dont hear about them. Probably cause they are on the west coast. Harrington is a complementary player. I dont really agree that our core can win a championship as is. Thats just a fundamental disagreement I have with Paxson, the Pax lovers and guys like Sausage. The core isnt dynamic enough. We need to find a core guy soon. As pointed out, by me, on another thread, getting a core guy is so freaking difficult. It almost never happens. harrington doesnt transform a team. He wont show up as a FA and instantly cause excitement or win you 5-8 more games. he is a cog. I would pass. he would want lots of years and a high number, which hurts the Bulls ability to deal more then helps it. I operate under the assumption that Chandlers best position is the 4 spot. So we really need someone to play with him, help him on the boards, and to provide interior D. Bullsville has been hot on Joel P and I have to say I like him. He clogs up a lane as well as anyone in the league. He wont score alot, but he sets screens, rebounds, and blocks/alters scores of shots. Nene is a wildcard. he can score and do it around the basket. He gets a fair amount of easy dunks etc. The Bulls biggest weakness, outside of their lack of size on D, is that they have almost no one who can finish at the rim. Chandler can, if he can catch a ball. Deng might be able to but seems more comfortable taking jump shots. But we eventually need to find a way to generate high % shots from our offense, both in the halfcourt and fullcourt. Harrington doesnt get you that, or much defense either. Al is a good stats player, but in reality, for an elite team, he is a 6th man or first forward off the bench. Do we want to be locked into that type of money (he apparently wants the max) for the long term?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> I agree with the gist of what you say.
> 
> Honestly, I think Harrington is being ragged on by many because he's emerging as Paxson's "obvious" target in free agency.


Honestly, I think Harrington is emerging as *your* favorite simply because you think he's emerging as Paxson's "obvious" target.

How else do you explain a guy falling all over himself to justify one guy over another guy when he's admittedly not even watched much of him.

Look, I'm not saying this just to be a dick, but it's clear as day that's your agenda from the getgo. And that's fine; we can all root for guys for whatever reasons we choose. But if Kukuc4Ever is preemptively favoring a guy because he thinks Pax doesn't want him (which I think would be equally silly but which he's equally entitled to do), surely you're preemptively favoring a guy because you think Pax does want him.

*Either approach misses the point in my eyes, because neither of these guys are worth overspending too much on.* They're solid starting quality players with a slight possibility left of improving beyond that, but I really wouldn't bank on it. Honestly, our best bet might be to maximize our cap room (by moving Sweetney soon) and get into position to make an offer to both of them. But I wouldn't break into much of a sweat if we didn't get either of them.

*Rosenthall*, one thing about Gooden's jib, is that I'd imagine the Bulls will see what Hinrich thinks of him. The Bulls respect Kirk's basketball accumen; if he respects Gooden's, he's iin like Flynn.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

Mikedc said:


> How else do you explain a guy falling all over himself to justify one guy over another guy when he's admittedly not even watched much of him.


Wait, did you miss the part where I noted I'd rather have Gooden? Must have...



> Look, I'm not saying this just to be a dick, but it's clear as day that's your agenda from the getgo. And that's fine; we can all root for guys for whatever reasons we choose. But if Kukuc4Ever is preemptively favoring a guy because he thinks Pax doesn't want him (which I think would be equally silly but which he's equally entitled to do), surely you're preemptively favoring a guy because you think Pax does want him.


That's your opinion. I like both players (Gooden and Harrington). I can't see why an 18/7 PF wouldn't be able to help our team. He's better than any PF currently on our roster, right?

If that makes me a Pax homer in your eyes, that's fine, but I'm not the only one of that opinion.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Guys, Harrington usually doesn't guard centers or power forwards. So if he's a Bull, and he's on the court, who's going to guard a big consistently? Deng? Nocioni? (Ick.)


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> But we eventually need to find a way to generate high % shots from our offense, both in the halfcourt and fullcourt. Harrington doesnt get you that, or much defense either. Al is a good stats player, but in reality, for an elite team, he is a 6th man or first forward off the bench. Do we want to be locked into that type of money (he apparently wants the max) for the long term?


Totally agree.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

Al Harrington played the 3rd most minutes (30.9) on a 61 win team, many of which were at PF when O'Neal would slide over to the C spot. Foster, the starting C, played less than Harrington (23.9).

Al Harrington can be more than just a 6th man/bench player for a good team.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

He was a sixth man and he did play over thirty minutes. Where's the disagreement?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> Wait, did you miss the part where I noted I'd rather have Gooden? Must have...


Yes, I did! Sorry!



> That's your opinion. I like both players (Gooden and Harrington). I can't see why an 18/7 PF wouldn't be able to help our team. He's better than any PF currently on our roster, right?
> 
> If that makes me a Pax homer in your eyes, that's fine, but I'm not the only one of that opinion.


I'd agree if I thought he was an 18/7 PF. But I don't think he is. I think he's somewhat of a 4 on offense but he's almost a pure 3 on defense. Somewhat moreso than Donyell Marshall, who I think is somewhat similar, except while being slower is better at guarding big players. Harrington, and I've watched him pretty closely for like 3 years, is not very good at that.

In short, defensively (which is what we need), he's not a power forward. Offensively he's a decent player, but he's not a complete player who'll fit in as a starter (and that's how he'll be paid). He's a guy who'd make a sixth man of the year, but I don't know how he fits too well for our needs.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

truebluefan said:


> Johnny called Joe Johnson Joe Jackson before the game began.


 he called Josh Smith "Joe Smith" too. I was surprised to hear Larivee mention that about Marvin. He's been calling college and pro basketball for a long time so I value his evaluation highly. Red Kerr was debating him that Bogut has been very good and it turned out to be a good discussion. Wayne probably has no time to see and read about all the buildup of the prospects but that produces a unique perspective. He can see talent and evaluate through hype-free eyes.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Is the issue being discussed here a Gooden vs. Harrington issue, or a "don't sign Harrington" issue?


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## charlietyra (Dec 1, 2002)

I'm kind of late to this party put pencil me in as someone who thinks the Bulls should spend their money on Gooden. I think he is starting to put it all together. Much more upside than Harrington. He is big, rugged and talented. Not a "soft" player whatsoever. Just what the Bulls need.

I read somewhere that he fell out of favor with another team because he had a "posse." Don't know if this is true but I could see Pax putting the kibosh on acquiring him if this is the case.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Is the issue being discussed here a Gooden vs. Harrington issue, or a "don't sign Harrington" issue?


I think it's a bit of both. I guess to clarify, I'd be happy with Harrington at the right price, but I'd slightly prefer Gooden at the right price.

I'd prefer neither at the wrong price... I'd really have a hard time seeing a penny over $7M for either of them. I actually think $6M or so is about what they merit based on their age/production/potential.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Mikedc said:


> I think it's a bit of both. I guess to clarify, I'd be happy with Harrington at the right price, but I'd slightly prefer Gooden at the right price.
> 
> I'd prefer neither at the wrong price... I'd really have a hard time seeing a penny over $7M for either of them. I actually think $6M or so is about what they merit based on their age/production/potential.


They are both going to cost more than that. Harrington definitely will. Its going to be a seller's market.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> They are both going to cost more than that. Harrington definitely will. Its going to be a seller's market.


I wouldn't assume that. Who's going to be buying? Us, the Hawks, the Hornets (though they don't seem to be in a hurry), maybe the Knicks if they can push a sign and trade. That's not a huge number of teams though.

But suppose you're right. Do you think it makes sense to invest as much money in one of those guys as in Tyson (who's getting $8M in his first year?). Tyson's rated out as an up and coming starter last year and has the most scarce combo in all of hoops... 7 foot size and athleticism.

What about Harrington is scarce? I can think of 5 guys (Donyell Marshall, SAR, Nocioni, KMart, Charlie Villanueva) off the top of my head that play about the same kind of game that Harrington does. Guys like Kenny Thomas also come to mind. The guys who are making the MLE or less and play that kind of game are considered good deals. The guys that have bigger contracts and play that kind of game (KMart, Jamison, SAR in prior years) seem to be considered bad deals. "Use it or lose it" or not, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to box ourselves into a really bad contract.

I mean, do you think it's worth it to pay $8M for a tweener forward who's never rated out better than a decent starter? Overpaying for starting quality (but not better) guys doesn't seem to be the Bulls' MO


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## MuresansThimble (Nov 16, 2005)

Mikedc said:


> I'd prefer neither at the wrong price... I'd really have a hard time seeing a penny over $7M for either of them. I actually think $6M or so is about what they merit based on their age/production/potential.



that money doesnt even get you Joel Pryzbilla.


i mean the # of bidders doesnt necessarily come into play for someone like Gooden. he's a RFA, like Chandler was. this past offseason, we were bidding against no one for Tyson's services, but ended up giving him the 60 mil, like Dalembert, because we feared losing him later.

Gooden has that same option. his leverage comes in the ability to wait a year. you face 2007's phantom bidders. if a team wants him enough, they'll pay big this year. or else he'll be off the table another year.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> Jump shooting, poor rebounding "power" forward is a good description of Wallace if that's what you’re going to use for Harrington. I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say Harrington doesn't produce "like Wallace does on both ends of the court" since their production is about the same.


Wallace is considered a better defensive player than Harrington. He also has a much higher defensive PER. 




> Actually, if anything, Harrington is a statistically better player.


Wrong. Or maybe you just didn't know again.

Wallace: 
Defensive PER: 2.08 *(69%PF, 31%C)*

Harrington: 
Defensive PER: 0.79 *(61%SF, 39%PF)*

Wallace PER (last 4 seasons)
2005-2006: 18.60
2004-2005: 16.39
2003-2004: 17.86
2002-2003: 18.50

Harrington PER (last 4 seasons)
2005-2006: 16.58
2004-2005: 14.32
2003-2004: 14.92
2002-2003: 12.41

Harrington has never been a better player than Rasheed. That's ridiculous.





> Harrington is pretty good at getting to the line for a non-superstar player. His 4.8 FTA per game would lead the Bulls
> and would be 2nd to Chauncey Billups on the Pistons. I can't see how FTA's can be used against Harrington when he gets to the line more than Drew Gooden (3.6 attempts per).


You are not paying attention to a lot of things here, perhaps on purpose.

Harrington plays 37.4 minutes a game. Gooden plays 28.5. On a per minute basis Gooden gets to the line .1263 FTA/min, Harrington gets there .1283 FTA/min, so the difference between the two is not much. 

When you look at FTA per FGA, Gooden dominates. Harrigton simply chucks the ball up there much more than Gooden.

Gooden: .45 FTA per FGA
Harrington: .30 per FGA

This has a lot to do, IMO, with Gooden taking the ball strong to the rack.. attempted shots in the lane, dunks and tip ins, while Harrington is content to lob up jumpers. Goodens FGAs are a lot more likely to get him on the line. 

And Gooden, as has been shown, is more of a force inside and on the boards. There is no debate on this point.




> Harrington is a PF and a productive player. I would say that is something we're missing.


He's a SF/PF, as has been shown by others on this thread. Gooden is a true PF. Harrington is an OK player though, and I'd rather sign him than do nothing, and I think we both agree that we'd rather have Gooden, so we *should* both agree that Gooden is the better player for Paxson to target, which was my point.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

And for all those shot attempts, mostly outside jumpers, that Harrington lobs up, how effective a scorer is he?

http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2006/jh_ALL_TSP.htm

127th out of 208. Barley holding off Jalen Rose, another player who is content to do his damage via the jumper. Crawford is 105th.

Gooden is 23rd!


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> Wallace:
> Defensive PER: 2.08 *(69%PF, 31%C)*
> 
> Harrington:
> Defensive PER: 0.79 *(61%SF, 39%PF)*


Interesting. How exactly is defensive PER calculated?



> Wallace PER (last 4 seasons)
> 2005-2006: 18.60
> 2004-2005: 16.39
> 2003-2004: 17.86
> ...


I did not investigate their prior seasons, but the only reason Wallace's PER is higher this season is because he commits less turnovers. Otherwise their statistics are remarkably equal.



> Harrington plays 37.4 minutes a game. Gooden plays 28.5. On a per minute basis Gooden gets to the line .1263 FTA/min, Harrington gets there .1283 FTA/min, so the difference between the two is not much.
> 
> When you look at FTA per FGA, Gooden dominates. Harrigton simply chucks the ball up there much more than Gooden.
> 
> ...


FTA per FGA does not tell the entire story. Harrington has a more rounded game and will take a larger percentage of his shots from the outside (which doesn't mean he can't score on the inside). Because Gooden's shots are primarily close to the basket where contact is more prevalent, he's obviously more likely to have a higher FTA per shot. 

Kobe Bryant has .39 FTA per FGA rate. Would you say Gooden is better at drawing fouls than Bryant?

But as you said, I didn't break them down on a per min. basis, which is the most important, and where they're equal.



> Harrington is an OK player though, and I'd rather sign him than do nothing, and I think we both agree that we'd rather have Gooden, so we *should* both agree that Gooden is the better player for Paxson to target, which was my point.


I thought your point was that we shouldn't sign Harrington at all (i.e. "My interest in Harrington is almost non-existent." and "The last thing we need is a "power" forward that lobs up 65% jumpers and does not rebound."). 

I probably like Gooden better, but have no problem with Al, and I'll be very happy if we're able to land either one of them.

Can you post Gooden's defensive PER?


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> And for all those shot attempts, mostly outside jumpers, that Harrington lobs up, how effective a scorer is he?
> 
> http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2006/jh_ALL_TSP.htm
> 
> ...


We should trade for Austin Croshere, Sarunas Jasikevicius, Dikembe Mutombo, Delonte West, and James Posey. Most effective line-up in the league right there.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

MuresansThimble said:


> that money doesnt even get you Joel Pryzbilla.
> 
> 
> i mean the # of bidders doesnt necessarily come into play for someone like Gooden. he's a RFA, like Chandler was. this past offseason, we were bidding against no one for Tyson's services, but ended up giving him the 60 mil, like Dalembert, because we feared losing him later.
> ...


So do you think Pryzbilla's going to get as much or more than Tyson? And if someone offers that, we should make a better offer? That doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense to me.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> Al Harrington played the 3rd most minutes (30.9) on a 61 win team, many of which were at PF when O'Neal would slide over to the C spot. Foster, the starting C, played less than Harrington (23.9).
> 
> Al Harrington can be more than just a 6th man/bench player for a good team.


Err... the example you just cited proves my point and undermines your own though. On a good team, the 03-04 Pacers, Harrington played exactly the role I pointed out, He was a good 6th man who got a fair amount of minutes (though still slightly below average for a starting quality player). Not more than that. He wasn't the star of the team or anything close. He rated out as the 5th best guy on that team, and that's still about what he is now (remember he'll be going into his 9th season, his game pretty much is what it is).

And yeah, he played more minutes than Jeff Foster. OK. Does that mean he's worthy of star money? Rather, you might want to explain *why* it is that a guy who appears better (Harrington) and plays more minutes, was coming off the bench behind a guy who appears slightly worse (Hint: Foster rated out as a starter himself, even in 7 fewer minutes a game. Hint 2: Foster is 6'11" defends big guys and cleans the glass).

I'm not disputing that Harrington is a decent, quality NBA player. But he's a guy with an odd, and not particularly unique skillset, for one, and probably his very best skill, perimeter defense, is absolutely wasted at the PF position. He's a guy who virtue of those skills is not an every night 35mpg player on a top team. He's what he was on the Pacers, a super-sub who can fill in two positions, somewhat imperfectly.

You don't give $8M contracts to guys who are essentially utility men.

One final note: Look at the top five-man units with Harrington for the 03-04 Pacers:

*Top Five-Man Floor Units*
<table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="640"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#33cc33"> <td><center>*#*</center></td> <td><center>*Unit*</center></td> <td><center>*Min*</center></td> <td><center>*Off*</center></td> <td><center>*Def*</center></td> <td><center>*+/-*</center></td> <td><center>*W*</center></td> <td><center>*L*</center></td> <td><center>*Win%*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center> 1 </center></td> <td> Tinsley-Miller-Artest-Harrington-O'Neal</td> <td align="right">174 </td> <td align="right"> 332 </td> <td align="right"> 300 </td> <td align="right"> +32 </td> <td align="right"> 14 </td> <td align="right"> 12 </td> <td><center>53.8</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td><center>* 2 *</center></td> <td>* Tinsley-Miller-Harrington-O'Neal-Foster*</td> <td align="right">*156 *</td> <td align="right">* 301 *</td> <td align="right">* 269 *</td> <td align="right">* +32 *</td> <td align="right">* 12 *</td> <td align="right">* 6 *</td> <td><center>*66.6*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center> 3 </center></td> <td> Johnson-Jones-Artest-Harrington-O'Neal</td> <td align="right">115 </td> <td align="right"> 214 </td> <td align="right"> 226 </td> <td align="right"> -12 </td> <td align="right"> 18 </td> <td align="right"> 17 </td> <td><center>51.4</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td><center> 4 </center></td> <td> Johnson-Miller-Artest-Harrington-O'Neal</td> <td align="right">111 </td> <td align="right"> 218 </td> <td align="right"> 216 </td> <td align="right"> +2 </td> <td align="right"> 13 </td> <td align="right"> 15 </td> <td><center>46.4</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td><center> 5 </center></td> <td> Johnson-Jones-Artest-Harrington-Pollard</td> <td align="right">106 </td> <td align="right"> 188 </td> <td align="right"> 197 </td> <td align="right"> -9 </td> <td align="right"> 11 </td> <td align="right"> 16 </td> <td><center>40.7</center></td></tr></tbody></table>
Anyone notice a stunning difference in how he's used in the one lineup that was significantly better than the others?

*I truely would like someone to explain why he's worth the money you guys seem to be willing to pay to get?* Even when he's been given all the minutes he could handle in Atlanta he still only produced at a starter's level. What is the evidence he's going to take his game up a notch and be a legitimate star, or even marginal star in the league? Where's his special skill that rates him a higher salary because he's tall or wide, or freakishly good at something? Especially when we've got two players who play a whole lot like him and a relatively waifish center to play next to him.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Wallace is considered a better defensive player than Harrington. He also has a much higher defensive PER.
> 
> Wallace:
> Defensive PER: 2.08 *(69%PF, 31%C)*
> ...


*

*Where'd you get these from?


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> Wallace:
> Defensive PER: 2.08 (69%PF, 31%C)
> 
> Harrington:
> Defensive PER: 0.79 (61%SF, 39%PF)


This sparked a thought, what would we do if Chandler went down for some significant time? Who would play C then?
In the end I'd still rather target Nene first, and signings after that would depend on who we draft.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> [/b]Where'd you get these from?


Pro Basketball Forcast.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> They are both going to cost more than that. Harrington definitely will. Its going to be a seller's market.



I think Harrington is ALREADY making close to 7 a year and he is on record as wanting a max contract this offseason. I think anyone hoping to sign him is looking at a deal that starts around 9-10 mil. Pryz is a big man so he will get paid, my guess is somehwere around the 8-9 mil a year range which is right around Chandler money. I think it would be overpaying to pay either of those guys that much.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Pax ought to tell him to shop around for the best offer, then consider beating it.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> on it. Honestly, our best bet might be to maximize our cap room (by moving Sweetney soon) and get into position to make an offer to both of them. But I wouldn't break into much of a sweat if we didn't get either of them.
> 
> *Rosenthall*, one thing about Gooden's jib, is that I'd imagine the Bulls will see what Hinrich thinks of him. The Bulls respect Kirk's basketball accumen; if he respects Gooden's, he's iin like Flynn.


That's crossed my mind too. If the Bulls are interested in Drew (and I hope they are, at least on some level) they could use Kirk to get some inside info on his jib, what his good and bad habits are, and if they decide to proceed, they could use Kirk to help recruit him as well, I would imagine.

It also struck me that if Gooden's jib really is piss poor, and he's a bad seed, it might negatively affect Kirk Hinrich as well, if the two of them are tight.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> I think Harrington is ALREADY making close to 7 a year and he is on record as wanting a max contract this offseason. I think anyone hoping to sign him is looking at a deal that starts around 9-10 mil. Pryz is a big man so he will get paid, my guess is somehwere around the 8-9 mil a year range which is right around Chandler money. I think it would be overpaying to pay either of those guys that much.



I Agree it would be overpaying, but that's the price for an NBA bigman these days.

You have to overpay to get one and we need atleast one and half big men. (Tyson hasn't convinced me yet, though I'm encouraged).

I just want to make sure we get one of : Nene, Pryz, Harrington, Gooden, Nazr.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

chifaninca said:


> I just want to make sure we get one of : Nene, Pryz, Harrington, Gooden, Nazr.


If those are the expectations, I'm sure Pax will be able to deliver.

Nazr would come here for THE MAX.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> If those are the expectations, I'm sure Pax will be able to deliver.
> 
> Nazr would come here for THE MAX.


Those expectations are a bit low. I want two of those guys.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Those expectations are a bit low. I want two of those guys.


That ain't going to happen. While fiscally possible, it aint fiscally prudent. And this is JR we are talking about.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

I admit that I haven't seen a lot of Harrington since he's been in Atlanta, and his recent game against the Bulls was kinda underwhelming. He looks to me like a filled out and more seasoned Deng. Assuming we're trying to win now, I'd rather have Harrington than Deng, but over the next 3 years I can see Deng closing the gap. Given this, if we have to overpay someone, I'd rather get more serious size.


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