# Breaking NEWS: Nick Friedell reports torn ACL for Rose.



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

End of the ****ING SEASON!


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

One year Howard rental.

Let's do it.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I can't ****ing believe this, I swear to GOD. 

What a ****ing JOKE. Tom Thibs just ****ing sunk our title hopes, WTF. WTF WTF WTF WTF!!!!!! Now we have to watch this shit offense eak out games against the ****ing Sixers, then get ****ing blasted away in the second round. 

This whole ****ing year was one big cock tease. But oh well, just another ****ing excuse to keep the same ****ing team together next season.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Is this for real?


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

ESPN is reporting it to.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

oh man, oh man,oh man.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Yeah its legit, espnChicago has it up. 

Why Tom, even that ****ing retard Vinny would not have played Rose with a minute left.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Funny that the first thing I thought of, besides oh shit, was how stupid the Knicks must feel for "choosing" to play Miami instead of Chicago. Obviously they had no way of knowing Rose would go down, but it's not like Rose has been an Ironman all year or anything.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> I can't ****ing believe this, I swear to GOD.
> 
> What a ****ing JOKE. Tom Thibs just ****ing sunk our title hopes, WTF. WTF WTF WTF WTF!!!!!! Now we have to watch this shit offense eak out games against the ****ing Sixers, then get ****ing blasted away in the second round.
> 
> This whole ****ing year was one big cock tease. But oh well, just another ****ing excuse to keep the same ****ing team together next season.


I don't see anyway we don't make major changes this offseason. 

None. 

If there's any silver lining in all of this, and I'm not saying there is, but IF there is, it's that Bulls fans collective patience just got A LOT shorter with GarPax and the front office. And you know what? Good.

Something will need to be done. A blockbuster or something, because if no move is made this offseason, it becomes official, even for those who were teetering in the middle, that Paxson should be fired and replaced with a more proactive GM and that this team isn't built to win anything except pile up regular season victories.

Now is where we need to get risky.

Build a top heavy superstar team that lacks depth, for ****s sake. I don't care. Just do something that will win us playoff games, not regular season ones.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Even when Rose comes back he might not be the same player.

A guy with his style of play and game, a torn ACL could doom us to mediocrity for a long time. The basketball gods just spat in our faces, signed a huge contract and might never be the same player again.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

thebizkit69u said:


> End of the ****ING SEASON!


as George Foreman said..."Thats the end of everything"

This affects his career trajectory. You can come back, but sometimes a guy is never quite the same. And Rose is on a string of misfortune lately. Can he turn it completely around for 10 years or will things gradually decline?


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Oh, and the Thibodeau/Chicago media honeymoon that has lasted two years is officially over.

This is going to be the most heat he gets from the Chicago media since he got here, and GarPax and Reinsdorf are going to go into crowd control mode trying to protect him. 

I'm not saying I think Thibs is to blame, partially he is, yeah, but it's clear that he has a more symbiotic relationship with our front office than most coaches/GM's do.

My point is just that all of this points to some sort of shaking up this offseason. It's time to make moves, or else the Chicago media is going to KILL this front office in print if we start next season with the same team.

I think we're finally going to get the big offseason we've been expecting the past two years. Let's just hope it works out well for us.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Pay Ton said:


> I don't see anyway we don't make major changes this offseason.
> 
> None.
> 
> ...


You don't? 

Paxson thinks this team is fine the way it's currently constructed. They actually told K.C. Johnson that in June of last year.

It's like the Bears not getting an offensive tackle in the first round. At first, they sell you the idea that Martin doesn't justify the #19 pick and therefore they have to pick a DE. Then Reiff becomes available and they say he's not a LT (as if Webb is!) and they pick Shea McClellin. Then you suddenly wake up 5 rounds later and if you're not a retard, you're saying "hey, they never thought left tackle was a need at ALL."

This team doesn't have a star #2 option (and not a star in name only, but a guy who can play) because Paxson thinks we're fine as is. 

Why do you expect big changes? Because maybe you are finally sold. And you think that's going to move the Conservative Rock of the Right Way Jib NBA Biblical Movement? His Holiness of Fundamentals John Paxson? Please. Paxson thinks we're fine. Strap yourself in for a worthless 5-7 years of great regular seasons. You think I'm kidding and I WISH I was. 

There has to be accountability all the way up and down for the MONUMENTAL F*CK UP that was having the reigning MVP in a game, with the ball, driving to the basket, up 12 with 1:10 left. There's nothing about that that says "smart" on any level. 

It's like I always say about people who act really nerdy (I love nerds by the way, but I'm talking about like over-annunciators and stuff like that). Just because you're a nerd doesn't mean you're always smart. Just because you come into the press conference with your rah rah crap and a super serious unemotional schtick, doesn't mean what you did out on the court wasn't an incredibly idiotic thing that cost the overall 1 seed the season. 

If this happened with 11 minutes left in the 3rd, nothing you can do about that. There absolutely was something that could be done about this.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Pay Ton said:


> Oh, and the Thibodeau/Chicago media honeymoon that has lasted two years is officially over.
> 
> This is going to be the most heat he gets from the Chicago media since he got here, and GarPax and Reinsdorf are going to go into crowd control mode trying to protect him.
> 
> ...


He's absolutely to blame.

There's no way that Phil Jackson would have had Michael Jordan out there in the same situation. Most top COLLEGE programs have their starters out up 12 that late. Do you know what the FG% and seconds per shots PLUS Bulls F-ups would have to be to blow +12, 70 seconds left?? 

He's absolutely to blame. If this happens in the first quarter, not at all to blame. If it happens when there is no reason for him to be out there, Tibs is entirely to blame.

David Shuster sounded like he was about to scream when he was on 670 and basically sounded blood thirsty when he was talking about how Tibs was going to answer for this.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

What was Chicago's record with Derrick Rose this season?


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Reinsdorf doesn't give two shits what people think of him or his front office, FFS the guy still wanted Ozzy and Williams together as long as they wanted to be together. 

Pax will just say, well we got injured but we still had the #1 seed and blah blah, we have depth blah blah, Mirotic and Butler blah blah, Deng injured blah blah, second round blah blah.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Hoodey said:


> Why do you expect big changes? Because maybe you are finally sold. And you think that's going to move the Conservative Rock of the Right Way Jib NBA Biblical Movement? His Holiness of Fundamentals John Paxson? Please. Paxson thinks we're fine. Strap yourself in for a worthless 5-7 years of great regular seasons. You think I'm kidding and I WISH I was.


It's not about that at all. My point is that the past two seasons, Paxson and the front office has had to deal with a relatively tame and lax Bulls fanbase and media that has just been happy to get back to relevance. That's over now.

The Chicago media isn't going to be "tame and lax" anymore. It's going to start on Monday, and it's going to continue for the next few weeks until we're eliminated from the playoffs. And then it's going to heighten again once we're officially out until the draft rolls around and the offseason starts. And wherever the media goes, the fanbase follows. People are going to start getting more impatient. Fans, media, the works.

Paxson isn't dealing with the same chill media/fanbase he was dealing with the past two offseason.

He can believe his bullshit, but he knows he's going to have to do something. I don't buy the theory that a GM ignores the grumblings of the media and fan. I don't. I think the Chicago public reaction to this will influence a change.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Pay Ton said:


> It's not about that at all. My point is that the past two seasons, Paxson and the front office has had to deal with a relatively tame and lax Bulls fanbase and media that has just been happy to get back to relevance. That's over now.
> 
> The Chicago media isn't going to be "tame and lax" anymore. It's going to start on Monday, and it's going to continue for the next few weeks until we're eliminated from the playoffs. And then it's going to heighten again once we're officially out until the draft rolls around and the offseason starts. And wherever the media goes, the fanbase follows. People are going to start getting more impatient. Fans, media, the works.
> 
> ...


It's sad that the media and fan base took this long to come around to this guy's schtick, if they even have. I figured him out 6 years ago; and when I say that, I don't think it takes intellect, but rather skepticism.

I think if this guy was motivated to do anything real, you'd see him making moves or at least attempting moves like the ones Kupchak has made. Those moves aren't impossible, unless you think they don't need to be made.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Only time will tell, but we'll see this offseason whether or not Pax makes the drastic moves I'm talking about.

It's not really about his history or what he has proven to do in the past. If it was about that, I'd agree. Nothing is going to change.

But he's a GM and he has just inherited, for the first time in a long time, a messy situation here in Chicago. He's going to need to react and it's not going to be through bullshit PR statements like, "I still believe in our team." That's not going to cut it anymore.

We'll see. I think changes are coming.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Apparently Twitter is already blowing up with Thibodeau criticism. It's not going to end there. GarPax are going to be involved at some point as well. 

This is going to be the toughest offseason Paxson has ever faced.

We'll see.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

I feel terrible for Rose and for you guys. This was looking like a really promising year. Hope Rose comes back full strength from this. Time for everyone on the Bulls to step it up a notch.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Pay Ton said:


> Only time will tell, but we'll see this offseason whether or not Pax makes the drastic moves I'm talking about.
> 
> It's not really about his history or what he has proven to do in the past. If it was about that, I'd agree. Nothing is going to change.
> 
> ...


It might not cut it for you.

Remember, this is a city of apologists. They've been apologizing for the Cubs and rationalizing a theoretical road to it being "their year" for 104 years.

The draft the Bears had looked so much like an Angelo draft that you'd swear Lovie has been making all of the drafts, and it's being apologized for with desperate calls of "hey, you aren't out there scouting these guys."

Don't underestimate the ability of the Chicago fan to buy a plate of horse crap for a dollar, eat it like it's filet mignon, and then come back with two dollars the next day.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Thanks, Basel.

The one thing I'm hanging my hat on, is that I never truly believed we could beat the Heat this year, so in a way, it's not like my title hopes were crashed. I never really had title hopes.

But now I'm just worried about Rose's health long-term. That's the concern.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Pay Ton said:


> Thanks, Basel.
> 
> The one thing I'm hanging my hat on, is that I never truly believed we could beat the Heat this year, so in a way, it's not like my title hopes were crashed. I never really had title hopes.
> 
> But now I'm just worried about Rose's health long-term. That's the concern.


I'll never forget the only time I had title hopes truly crashed in devastating fashion.

It was 1994. In 89 and 90 I kind of felt the same as I did about the Heat this year, except even more so because the Pistons were just better.

But 94 was the hardest year of my Bulls fan life. That team really had a chance if they didn't get bent over by Hugh Hollins. They would have mauled the Pacers and the Rockets would have been a ridiculously tough series. 

Pippen, Grant and Armstrong fought their asses off that year and they were probably better than this current team with a healthy Rose, if not damn close. 

That game 7 in New York, when Greg Anthony hit the big 3 and turned around and taunted Phil Jackson, that was devastating for me.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I bet Tom can't go out anywhere later for Dinner. He single-handedly screwed us over, unintentionally but still. Knowing when to take guys out of a game is just as important as the X's and O's of the game, I know appreciate what Greg Popovich does even more.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)




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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

dammmmm that sucks!


was anticipating that ECF with the heat


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## Mrs. Thang (Apr 14, 2011)

Seems kind of ridiculous to verociously criticize a front office and coaching staff that has put together a team that has earned a #1 seed two years in a row and went to the ECF last year.

A LOT of towns around America that would love to be in that position. Even with the injury.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Mrs. Thang said:


> Seems kind of ridiculous to verociously criticize a front office and coaching staff that has put together a team that has earned a #1 seed two years in a row and went to the ECF last year.
> 
> A LOT of towns around America that would love to be in that position. Even with the injury.


There's nothing special about being a #1 seed and regular season champs year in and year out.

Nobody remembers teams like the Sacramento Kings, Blazers, Pacers, and Knicks.

They might remember them in the sense that "Yeah, that team could never get past the Bulls/Lakers/Spurs." But that's about it.

Forgive me if I'm not satisfied.


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## garnett (May 13, 2003)

You wait all year for the ECF and in a flash it's all over. Devastating.


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## Mrs. Thang (Apr 14, 2011)

Pay Ton said:


> There's nothing special about being a #1 seed and regular season champs year in and year out.
> 
> Nobody remembers teams like the Sacramento Kings, Blazers, Pacers, and Knicks.
> 
> ...


All you can do in sports is keep yourself alive and give yourself a shot. Look at Dallas. Anything can happen in the postseason, and constistantly getting home court in a playoff series give you a hell of a shot. 

In a league where half the teams are totally unwatchable, nobody has any sympathy for the fan who complains his team can "only" get to the conference finals.


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

This is devastating to any NBA fan, let alone Bulls fans. The Playoffs have really taken a hit now, just not as entertaining as they would have been. I feel for you guys. Feel free to come fill the Fieldhouse and root for the Pacers.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Mrs. Thang said:


> All you can do in sports is keep yourself alive and give yourself a shot. Look at Dallas. Anything can happen in the postseason, and constistantly getting home court in a playoff series give you a hell of a shot.
> 
> In a league where half the teams are totally unwatchable, nobody has any sympathy for the fan who complains his team can "only" get to the conference finals.


Sympathy? Who wants sympathy? I don't care if the rest of the league hates us.

As for the fan that complains that his team can "only" get to the conference finals? 99% of NBA fans, when placed in our position, would complain as well. 

Losing is never fun, even if you lose later in the season than most teams do, it still sucks.

I don't want sympathy. I want a championship.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Gonzo said:


> This is devastating to any NBA fan, let alone Bulls fans. The Playoffs have really taken a hit now, just not as entertaining as they would have been. I feel for you guys. Feel free to come fill the Fieldhouse and root for the Pacers.


My interests in the playoffs has suddenly dropped to about nil, otherwise, trust me, I would root for the Pacers, crazy as it sounds.

Good luck against the Heat.


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## garnett (May 13, 2003)

I can't root for any of the east teams. Too much rivalry. 

Go Spurs.


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

Pay Ton said:


> My interests in the playoffs has suddenly dropped to about nil, otherwise, trust me, I would root for the Pacers, crazy as it sounds.
> 
> Good luck against the Heat.


One series at a time, need to get through the Magic first.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Gonzo said:


> One series at a time, need to get through the Magic first.


I understand why you would feel the need to say that, considering what we just went through, so I'll humor you...

...good luck against that team from Florida.


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## RR 823 (Mar 29, 2003)

Kyle Korver:



> Right about now, the disbelief has faded, anger has subsided and were all wondering... why? Why. Why. Why Derrick, again? Derrick is more than an MVP to our team. He's our friend, our brother he inspires us to be the very best we can be, just by who he is and how hard he plays. That he has spent so much time this year hurt, was frustrating. Now that he is out for the rest of the season, well its just plain sad. No one is to blame; what happened, did. We send him our prayers, our love, our good wishes that he heals and comes back stronger, better, healthier than ever before.
> 
> Bulls fans. Now is not the time to ask why or to get bitter. Now is the time to refocus and ask "How are we going to win this Championship?" We have the best Team in the league. This season has proven, we are a TEAM and it has taken us ALL to have the best record. Lets focus on whats ahead. This is an incredible opportunity for All of Us to step up and make it happen. We're all gonna have to work harder and smarter. We are all gonna have to believe in ourselves. That we are more than the sum of our parts. We need YOU to believe with Us. We need You to believe for Us. We are going to keep going strong. One quarter, one game, one round at a time. Until its over. That's how we're gonna do it.


http://www.facebook.com/kylekorver26/posts/10151009101279616

Good to see that the rest of the Bulls won't be completely demoralized by this.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Mrs. Thang said:


> All you can do in sports is keep yourself alive and give yourself a shot. Look at Dallas. Anything can happen in the postseason, and constistantly getting home court in a playoff series give you a hell of a shot.
> 
> In a league where half the teams are totally unwatchable, nobody has any sympathy for the fan who complains his team can "only" get to the conference finals.


So, if you play a superstar up 12 with 1:10 left in the game, are you acting in a way that is more likely to "keep yourself alive" or not.

One of two things can happen. A great percentage of the time he will do great and not get hurt. Let's even say 95%, if not more. Even if you increase it to 99% -

Is that 1% of the time when he does get hurt worth it when you consider that:

(wait for it)

100% of the time, if you're any kind of legitimate playoff team at all, you will win a game where you're up 12 with 1:10 left and the ball. 

I'm sorry, but if you play a superstar up 12 with 1:10 left, you are doing no more to keep yourself alive (since you are not in danger of losing if you have JL3 in there). However, you do run the risk of something happening that will almost assure that you won't be alive for too long.

If this was 1991 and we were up 12 with 1:10 left v. Barkley's Sixers in round 2, game 1, there is not a CHANCE ON EARTH Phil Jackson would have had MJ in the game. Definitely not driving the ball to the basket throwing up floaters. 

Now, you can argue that Rose was the one who decided to go all out, but if he's not in the game, can he go all out? 

No.


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

RR 823 said:


> Kyle Korver:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Got to respect those comments. Go Bulls


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

normally i despise anything chicago sports related, so you'd think i'd love this but for some reason i really feel for you guys on this one.. what a shitty way to go out


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Am I the only one who doesn't think that being up 12 with over a minute left is THAT much? The Chicago offense had stagnated and Philly had come back from about 20 down with about four minutes left and was threatening to turn it into single digits. It's not like the two teams had been trading baskets and the Bulls didn't need Rose out there to create a last couple buckets and seal the win.....


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

fleetwood macbull said:


> as George Foreman said..."Thats the end of everything"
> 
> This affects his career trajectory. You can come back, but sometimes a guy is never quite the same. And Rose is on a string of misfortune lately. Can he turn it completely around for 10 years or will things gradually decline?


Remember Walter Payton.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Bogg said:


> Am I the only one who doesn't think that being up 12 with over a minute left is THAT much? The Chicago offense had stagnated and Philly had come back from about 20 down with about four minutes left and was threatening to turn it into single digits. It's not like the two teams had been trading baskets and the Bulls didn't need Rose out there to create a last couple buckets and seal the win.....


When something bad happens the coach is to blame. It's just the way it is. Still I don't see what Thibodeau really did wrong. Of course I don't have an emotional investment in this.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

what's the timeline for his return? 6 months? 8?


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7868819/derrick-rose-torn-acl-caps-injury-plagued-nba-season

Getting back in uniform and being what he used to be are different things. Probably have to wait and see when he comes back to see how close Rose is to what he used to be.



> As for the time it will take, presuming he undergoes a straightforward ACL reconstruction, *Rose's recovery can be expected to take somewhere between six and nine months. Surgery is often delayed until the athlete's inflammation subsides and range of motion approaches normal. There are numerous variations in how an individual is able to progress through the rehabilitation process, including whether there are any additional procedures performed (such as meniscus repair), the type of graft used and whether there is any cartilage damage present. * Then there is the athlete's capacity for healing to take into account. The demands of basketball -- sudden stops and starts, frequent lateral movements and directional changes, along with the repeated impact of running and jumping -- require a high level of performance prior to releasing an athlete to competitive play.
> While the incidence of ACL injury in NBA players is less frequent than in some other professional athletes (such as NFL football players for instance), just this March Minnesota Timberwolves rookie point guard Ricky Rubio tore his left ACL. Rubio underwent surgery later that month to reconstruct his ACL and also his lateral collateral ligament (LCL) and will miss the Olympics, where he had been scheduled to represent Spain. He told reporters earlier this month that he is not sure if he will be ready for training camp. According to the St. Paul Pioneer-Press, when asked about his return date Rubio said, "It depends on how my knee feels. We will see. The most important thing I want to make sure of is I want to be 100 percent." Rose will likely be issuing similar statements in the not-too-distant future.
> Even when recovery timetables are provided, they are typically issued as ranges of time to allow for unexpected elements that can influence the healing process. The good news is Rose has youth and fitness on his side and barring something, well, unexpected, there is every reason to be optimistic he will return to the MVP-caliber player we saw in 2011.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Agreed. I know it's a question many of us want to avoid, but the Penny Hardaways and Grant Hills of the NBA world are definitely in the back of my mind these past few hours.

I don't think we can afford to not make a move this offseason for a legitimate scorer. If Rose comes back the same, we do it because it lessens his burden. And if he doesn't, we do it because we're going to need Rose to be the second guy on the team from now on.

Either way, something must be done. We don't know what Rose we're going to be getting. 

Hate to be one of the guys to bring it up, but it's true.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

I didn't see the game but I saw the video of the play where he injured himself. He puts an incredible amount of stress on his knees with those jump stops. He jumps so high and fast and stops so severely. It must be devastating to his body. I hate to say it but it was an inevitable injury. I've heard for years that Wade would never stay healthy and would break down because of the way he plays but aside from freak injuries (wrist or his shoulder getting dislocated by opponent bending his arm backwards) he has been very healthy. Rose is a whole different level of risk. The human body simply isn't capable of withstanding those forces on the joints that he experiences. Unless Hugh Jackman hooks him up with some adamantium ligaments there's going to be a sad day where he has to start adjusting the way he plays.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

nvm - wrong thread


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## BenDengGo (Feb 1, 2004)

i'm saddened, this is messed up. i had the bulls going all the way.

but i'm not blaming the coach one bit.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Bogg said:


> Am I the only one who doesn't think that being up 12 with over a minute left is THAT much? The Chicago offense had stagnated and Philly had come back from about 20 down with about four minutes left and was threatening to turn it into single digits. It's not like the two teams had been trading baskets and the Bulls didn't need Rose out there to create a last couple buckets and seal the win.....


i'm gonna co-sign this.

what happened to Rose is just horrible but this is the way Thibs coaches which is to win every game, all out effort, all the time , when it works its great , in times like this, its pretty bad but rose wasn't out there with 4 scrubs , all the starters were still playing , the game was not considered over yet ....far less incredible comebacks have happened before and it was the 76ers who had the momentum at the moment because the lead was shrinking.

that said i really feel for rose , he's a warrior and its been a very trying season for him healthwise. i hope he can come back and be the star he was before.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I just don't know what move they can make. Pax doesn't have the vision to pull of a steal trade and hes shown 0 interest in moving Deng or Noah. By time the season starts again, the team will most likely be the exact same one.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

This season has been a nightmare.

I've been thinking on and off about what happened yesterday and the more it sinks in the more depressed I get. We're suddenly stuck in a very mediocre situation next season and possibly for the forseeable future depending on what Derrick Rose we get back. It sickens me to think that a kid like Rose, one of the good guys of the league, had this happen to him. Just sickens me.

I'm not optimistic about this ACL recovery at all. Rose is a hard worker and I know he'll bust his ass, but history is against us.

This has single handedly stripped me of any enthusiasm I've had for sports in a long time. Not just basketball. Everything. I don't even care about the baseball season right now, and I'm not even concerned about football. I've never experienced something so demoralizing as a sports fan in my life. I'm going to be pretty numb to sports in general for a long time. Nothing has ever made me feel like that, but this has.

Just the worst ****ing sports experience I've ever had.

And yes, I'm still mad at our regular season philosophy. I don't like it one bit. Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I just need to vent. The one seed for what? So now Miami probably gets home court in the ECF regardless. What the **** does that shit matter?

I feel like we need to change our front office philosophy. No more of this high character hard working blue collar jib bullshit. Rest your stars, sacrifice wins, build top heavy teams that coast during the season and haven't peaked in December. All of those things may not be "honorable" but teams have won in the past like that.

Ugh.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

Pay Ton said:


> This has single handedly stripped me of any enthusiasm I've had for sports in a long time. Not just basketball. Everything. I don't even care about the baseball season right now, and I'm not even concerned about football. I've never experienced something so demoralizing as a sports fan in my life. I'm going to be pretty numb to sports in general for a long time. Nothing has ever made me feel like that, but this has.
> 
> Just the worst ****ing sports experience I've ever had.


About the same for me.


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## Firefight (Jul 2, 2010)

I don;t blame Thibs at all. People keep asking why Rose was out there... and there are plenty of reasons why. A kid can get hurt at anytime of the game, its uncontrollable. Rose has missed a ton of time this year, and like Coach said, needed to work on finishing games. When he said this, he didn't mean, finishing a game with a game winning shot, he meant finishing out a full game; playing playoff minutes. Rose had a few games and practice to shake the rust, but he needed more fine tuning, and playing these minutes against a lesser opponent was the way to condition him. Made perfect sense.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Firefight said:


> I don;t blame Thibs at all. People keep asking why Rose was out there... and there are plenty of reasons why. A kid can get hurt at anytime of the game, its uncontrollable. Rose has missed a ton of time this year, and like Coach said, needed to work on finishing games. When he said this, he didn't mean, finishing a game with a game winning shot, he meant finishing out a full game; playing playoff minutes. Rose had a few games and practice to shake the rust, but he needed more fine tuning, and playing these minutes against a lesser opponent was the way to condition him. Made perfect sense.


Your point is just not persuasive.

Just because someone can get hurt any time doesn't mean you expose them to injury when it isn't necessary.

The game was finished. Philly had pulled their starters at the 4 minute mark. It's not "playoff minutes" in any sense other than it happened in a playoff game - that was over with the other team already waiving the white flag. 

It's pretty clear you like Thibs, and that's where you get your rationalizations from. If Thibs hit the kid with a pvc pipe, you'd still figure out a reason why that was a "great move."

And before you answer, consider the very persuasive point I have on my side. The Chicago Cubs of the last 104 years. If what I say is so off base, how does that crap happen. I know, I know sigh. THIS year is finally the Cubs year LOL. Go Dwight Smith and Jerome Walton! I hear Rick Mirer is going to be a great trade, and Curtis Enis is a great pick. Sound familiar? These were all conclusions drawn by homer Chicago fans with equal conviction. 

Would you care to hear about 110,000 more?


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Tough break guys - devastating.

Was looking forward to the ECF against you, who knows, you may still make it if CJ Watson and John Lucas III do their best Rose impression.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Wade County said:


> Tough break guys - devastating.
> 
> Was looking forward to the ECF against you, who knows, you may still make it if CJ Watson and John Lucas III do their best Rose impression.


My prediction was Bulls lose to Heat in 5, Heat lose to Thunder in 6. I stand by it.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

The people apologizing for Thibs to me are just incredible. I think he's a great coach. He should be extended. But to pretend like it was reasonable to have Derrick in the game at that point, that's just crazy. Thibodeau has always played guys too long at the end and this is no different. Sure, there's no way to know Derrick would shred his ACL, but that's why you err on the side of caution.

What an unfortunate waste.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> I can't ****ing believe this, I swear to GOD.
> 
> What a ****ing JOKE. Tom Thibs just ****ing sunk our title hopes, WTF. WTF WTF WTF WTF!!!!!! Now we have to watch this shit offense eak out games against the ****ing Sixers, then get ****ing blasted away in the second round.
> 
> This whole ****ing year was one big cock tease. But oh well, just another ****ing excuse to keep the same ****ing team together next season.


Agreed.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

I'm not apologizing for him, just pointing out that Philly was a little run and the Bulls didn't have anything going. There was a time to pull Rose, but it was up 20 at the four-minute mark. Up 12 with a minute thirty left in the game isn't that ridiculous of a scenario when the other team's putting something together. Phil used to do the same thing with Jordan.


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## FutureBullsDr (Apr 17, 2012)

Rose has been injured the entire year. He had been quickly rehabbing and trying to get back into games, but every time he did something else went wrong. He ended up overcompensating for his laundry list of injuries and ailments this year and with his explosive style of play, his joints and ligaments began to give. Rose's ACL was probably loaded with micro tears, just waiting to fully tear.

This was an accident waiting to happen. Don't blame Thibs, this could've happened 1 minute into game 2. 

I still think the Bulls will easily get out of the first round and probably finish off the Celtics/Hawks (neither team is full strength) in a tough 6 games series. Then we are back to where we ended last year, the ECF. Its too bad.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Don't blame Thibs, this could've happened 1 minute into game 2.


Very true, but he dint get injured 1 minute into a game and it could have been avoided in Game 1. 

It was a horrendously dumb move by Thibs to keep him out during that stretch.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Very true, but he dint get injured 1 minute into a game and it could have been avoided in Game 1.
> 
> It was a horrendously dumb move by Thibs to keep him out during that stretch.



Yep. I find all the excuse-making on this front to be super annoying. Sure, Rose _could_ have been injured at some other juncture, but he wasn't. The reason you bench your starters when a game is in hand is to give them rest and avoid potential injury. This injury is exactly why the standard move would have been to have Rose on the bench.

I think Thibs is a great coach, but to argue that this wasn't a huge screw-up is nuts.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> Yep. I find all the excuse-making on this front to be super annoying. Sure, Rose _could_ have been injured at some other juncture, but he wasn't. The reason you bench your starters when a game is in hand is to give them rest and avoid potential injury. This injury is exactly why the standard move would have been to have Rose on the bench.
> 
> I think Thibs is a great coach, but to argue that this wasn't a huge screw-up is nuts.


Odd, I find all of the after-the-fact finger pointing and scapegoating to be super annoying.

Rose's knee was obviously ready to go... it didn't take some kind of freak twist or someone barreling into him when his leg was planted... it just went when he came down. 

It was the damned playoffs... it is one thing if this was some meaningless summer league game, or even a regular season game... I'm not going to blame Thibs for having Rose out on the floor... is it unfortunate in every possible way? Absolutely... and we're all devastated and it is a natural tendency to look for someone to blame, but I'm not going to blame Coach Thibodeau for expecting Rose to be able to make it through game 1 of the playoffs. 

It was just a freak thing... nobody's fault. I wasn't alive when Gale Sayers blew out his knee, but I certainly can't remember ever being this saddened by an injury. I'm in a basketball depression.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Dornado said:


> Odd, I find all of the after-the-fact finger pointing and scapegoating to be super annoying.
> 
> Rose's knee was obviously ready to go... it didn't take some kind of freak twist or someone barreling into him when his leg was planted... it just went when he came down.


Not that it matters, but he tore it taking off, not landing. 

Also, I do not believe there is any medical support for the notion that one's knee is "ready to go," making an ACL tear inevitable. An ACL tear, as far as I know, does not result from degeneration, but rather a single, isolated incident of trauma. So, I do not believe there is any support for the notion that had he not torn his ACL at the end of Game 1, he would have torn it in the future. I'd be interested to see anyone with better medical knowledge than I have weigh in on it, though.




> It was the damned playoffs... it is one thing if this was some meaningless summer league game, or even a regular season game... I'm not going to blame Thibs for having Rose out on the floor... is it unfortunate in every possible way?



So, what? Derrick should play all 48 minutes in every playoff game? I'm not sure what your point is here. If you have a lead and the game is over, you put in your bench. It's basketball 101. The fact that it's a playoff game doesn't really change that dynamic. 



> Absolutely... and we're all devastated and it is a natural tendency to look for someone to blame, but I'm not going to blame Coach Thibodeau for expecting Rose to be able to make it through game 1 of the playoffs.


Look, I get that it was a freak accident, but it doesn't happen if he isn't on the floor unnecessarily.



> It was just a freak thing... nobody's fault. I wasn't alive when Gale Sayers blew out his knee, but I certainly can't remember ever being this saddened by an injury. I'm in a basketball depression.


I agree it's not Thibs' "fault," per se. But, it was an error to have Derrick on the floor. You are competing for an NBA championship and he is your biggest asset in that pursuit. You don't need to risk him unnecessarily, especially when he's been riddled with injuries all year. 

Thibs doesn't believe in the textbook approach of benching your starters when you have a sizable lead. I disagree with him on this and think the conventional approach is the right one. That's ok. It's just a strategic disagreement.

I am joining you in basketball depression. We need a support group or something.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> it didn't take some kind of freak twist





> It was just a freak thing...


You have to agree though, that it was completely avoidable.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

You can look for scapegoats all you want, but that isn't going to help anyone. Rose made a hard jumpstop and tore a ligament. If he had not done it there it's likely he'd have done it at some other point. I am sure that there are plenty of other places where Thibodeau would be welcome if you guys want to run him out of Chicago. There was time on the clock and NBA teams have come back from that deficit in that amount of time.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Diable said:


> If he had not done it there it's likely he'd have done it at some other point.



And your basis for this assertion is what, exactly?


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Diable said:


> You can look for scapegoats all you want, but that isn't going to help anyone. Rose made a hard jumpstop and tore a ligament. If he had not done it there it's likely he'd have done it at some other point. *I am sure that there are plenty of other places where Thibodeau would be welcome if you guys want to run him out of Chicago. *There was time on the clock and NBA teams have come back from that deficit in that amount of time.


Of all the things that have been brought up, not one time, at any point, has anybody said anything about running Thibs out of Chicago.

As for this argument. I do think Thibs/front office has to shoulder some of this blame, but not because of the isolated incident that happened in Game 1, but because during the regular season, you can't tell or convince me, that Rose shouldn't have been better rested than he was during the season and that there were games where he came back that he should have never come back in, etc. I'm not saying any of this contributed to his ACL injury, but I'm not saying none of it didn't contribute to his ACL injury either. The problem is you don't know. It might have. Which is why I think you need to respect an athlete's healing process and keep him out for as long as it takes.

Like I said during the season, I much prefer rusty Rose as opposed to injured Rose. Rusty Rose at this point is looking great to me.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Pay Ton said:


> I'm not saying any of this contributed to his ACL injury, but I'm not saying none of it didn't contribute to his ACL injury either. The problem is you don't know. It might have.


Actually, I think we do know. It did not contribute and could not have. In fact, playing him when not fully healed would _reduce_ the chance of an ACL tear because his body would be able to exert less force on itself.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> Not that it matters, but he tore it taking off, not landing.
> 
> Also, I do not believe there is any medical support for the notion that one's knee is "ready to go," making an ACL tear inevitable. An ACL tear, as far as I know, does not result from degeneration, but rather a single, isolated incident of trauma. So, I do not believe there is any support for the notion that had he not torn his ACL at the end of Game 1, he would have torn it in the future. I'd be interested to see anyone with better medical knowledge than I have weigh in on it, though.


Eh, you may be right regarding ACL injuries, I guess my point was more that it could happen at any time... Looking at the replay, (which I've mostly avoided) he did it taking off, you're right. It was a routine basketball play. 





> So, what? Derrick should play all 48 minutes in every playoff game? I'm not sure what your point is here. If you have a lead and the game is over, you put in your bench. It's basketball 101. The fact that it's a playoff game doesn't really change that dynamic.


I don't think anyone is saying he should play 48 minutes and I'm not quite sure why you jumped so quickly to that strawman argument. My point is that it is 20/20 hindsight that educates our opinion on whether or not Rose should have been in the game... it was not an unreasonable time to have our starters out there. We were in the process of clinching game 1 of the playoffs, I'm sure Rose was likely coming out at the next stoppage of play. Are you outraged that Boozer, Noah and Deng were all on the court too? Was that a huge mistake?





> Look, I get that it was a freak accident, but it doesn't happen if he isn't on the floor unnecessarily.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess I think Thibs was running a regular rotation... most coaches would have a few starters on the floor near the end of game 1 of the playoffs with a similar score/clock... I stopped watching basketball after Derrick Rose's injury, so I can't give you anecdotal evidence from the other game 1's to support my assumption.... so goes basketball depression.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Dornado said:


> Are you outraged that Boozer, Noah and Deng were all on the court too? Was that a huge mistake?



Yes! Starting at about the 4-minute mark, when the Bulls were up 20, I made this exact remark to my friends I was watching the game with. I complained that three starters were still on the floor when the game was in hand, and said that while I loved Thibodeau, he had the lamentable habit of leaving the starters in too long. So, when Derrick got hurt, I just sort of sighed and said "Yep, that's why you bench your starters."

It's not like this was an isolated incident. There has been ongoing dialogue between reporters and Thibs after games about why he failed to rest the starters. His basic response has been that no lead is safe in the NBA. I think that's demonstrably untrue and just sort of meaningless coach-speak.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> Actually, I think we do know. It did not contribute and could not have. In fact, playing him when not fully healed would _reduce_ the chance of an ACL tear because his body would be able to exert less force on itself.


Obviously we're all amateurs on this topic, but couldn't you adversely say his body would also endure less force on itself? I mean, why can't you state one and not the other?


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

jnrjr79 said:


> The people apologizing for Thibs to me are just incredible. I think he's a great coach. He should be extended. But to pretend like it was reasonable to have Derrick in the game at that point, that's just crazy. Thibodeau has always played guys too long at the end and this is no different. Sure, there's no way to know Derrick would shred his ACL, but that's why you err on the side of caution.
> 
> What an unfortunate waste.


This is where you establish credibility and others fall short. 

Thibs has proven to be a very good coach. The problem with this move is that it falls into the trap of effort for effort's sake.

Effort should just be a given at this level of the NBA (top regular season teams) and yet this organization has to go overboard with it. 

I don't think this mistake makes him a bad coach. But it was a mistake. You acknowledge that. Others can't acknowledge that because they have to live in a world where those they apologize for make no mistakes.

Proof are Angelo's drafts and really all Bears drafts I've ever seen. They've been 80% disasters, and yet if you listen to media people at the TIME of the draft in this town, you'd think they were 80% successful. The apologizing is ridiculous. Management in this town preaches accountability for the players, and rightfully so. Then the media comes in and removes management from being accountable.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Bogg said:


> I'm not apologizing for him, just pointing out that Philly was a little run and the Bulls didn't have anything going. There was a time to pull Rose, but it was up 20 at the four-minute mark. Up 12 with a minute thirty left in the game isn't that ridiculous of a scenario when the other team's putting something together. Phil used to do the same thing with Jordan.


Do you know what you'd have to do to win a game where the other team is up 12 with 1:27 left and the ball? 

Say Rose misses the layup at 1:10, and 10 seconds later Philly hits a 3. Say Chicago runs the clock out and Philly hits another 3. 

Chicago would be up 6 with 36 seconds left and Philly would have to foul. 

You are apologizing for him, because in your heart of hearts you must know that if the Bulls were up 7 or even 8, you'd have the potential of a point. Up 12? You have to know you're being disingenuous. 

Here's the knock out to any deniability you could reply with.

If Philly would need to hit every shot, including a couple 3s, and if the Bulls would have to miss quite a few free throws to lose this game - and that were all to happen - do you even deserve to win the game as a team anyway?!


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Pay Ton said:


> Obviously we're all amateurs on this topic, but couldn't you adversely say his body would also endure less force on itself? I mean, why can't you state one and not the other?



No, my understanding is that cannot be the case. The strength of the tendon is the strength of the tendon. It did not degenerate slowly over time and its ability to withstand various forces was static. Having some sprained ankle sometime earlier doesn't change that dynamic.

EDIT:

Here's what I'm reading to back that up:



> "Everybody's data, not just ours, shows this version of ACL-injury — non-contact — is an injury of explosion. It's essentially violence you're committing on your own knee," said Dr. David Altchek, who has overseen clinical trials and published research relating to ACL injuries in his work for the Hospital for Special Surgery in New York.
> 
> "Both Rose and Shumpert are slashing, driving, explosive-type players, not lumbering, post-up-type players. It has nothing to do with wear and tear. You don't gradually wear out your ACL. So the overly compressed schedule, I can't really see any way that relates to this specific injury. It could possibly relate to other injuries, but not really to the ACL."
> 
> ...


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...spt-0430-bulls-bits--20120430,0,7595115.story


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

jnrjr79 said:


> Yep. I find all the excuse-making on this front to be super annoying. Sure, Rose _could_ have been injured at some other juncture, but he wasn't. The reason you bench your starters when a game is in hand is to give them rest and avoid potential injury. This injury is exactly why the standard move would have been to have Rose on the bench.
> 
> I think Thibs is a great coach, but to argue that this wasn't a huge screw-up is nuts.


There is a reason that if Purdue is up 15 points in football with 3 minutes left, you won't see Robert Marve handing off to Akeem Shavers this coming fall. No, you'll likely see 4th string QB and WR Dolapo McCarthy handing off to walk on full back Kurt Freytag. And that's just PURDUE football. Illinois? Same thing. You won't see Nathan Scheelehaase handing off to Young up 15 with 3:05 left. You'll see some freshman handing off to some other freshman or a walk on. 

This is Chicago Bulls basketball. You were the #1 seed all year and any defense of this rationale would be a defense of playing an exhibition game after this game was over. Why not? After all, Rose did need to play more right? If you just play the best players in the world injuries be damned, why not play pickup games at the United Center until 4 AM? Why stop there? Why not just play and sleep until game 2? 

The reason you won't see starters in the game with 1:10 left up 12 on the Lakers, Running Rebels, Cal Bears or UCLA Bruins is because - while you can't avoid injuries, you limit the time that a player is susceptible to injury to those situations that are absolutely necessary to compete in a game.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Dornado said:


> Odd, I find all of the after-the-fact finger pointing and scapegoating to be super annoying.
> 
> Rose's knee was obviously ready to go... it didn't take some kind of freak twist or someone barreling into him when his leg was planted... it just went when he came down.
> 
> ...


Or "rah, rah, rah" "try hard, make meaner faces, get shorter shorts."


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Hoodey said:


> Or "rah, rah, rah" "try hard, make meaner faces, get shorter shorts."


What did that have to do with anything that I wrote?


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> No, my understanding is that cannot be the case. The strength of the tendon is the strength of the tendon. It did not degenerate slowly over time and its ability to withstand various forces was static. Having some sprained ankle sometime earlier doesn't change that dynamic.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> ...


Interesting. Well if that's the case, then that's the case. Obviously I'm willing to admit I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject to even refute that.

Good to know, in a way, for future reference, I guess.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Pay Ton said:


> Interesting. Well if that's the case, then that's the case. Obviously I'm willing to admit I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject to even refute that.
> 
> Good to know, in a way, for future reference, I guess.


I don't think you were being too insistent about it. It's funny about those who were being insistent. I love when everyone becomes a doctor. Like Alonzo Mourning and everyone freaking out about him dying by getting hit in the side of his body after the kidney transplant LOL.


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## taco_daddy (Jun 13, 2004)

I could care less whose fault it is that Rose got injured. No one is going to pay for it, we all just lose out on the opportunity to root for our team to win a championship.

What I do care about is lessons learned. What can be learned from this incident to lower the chance that something like this will happen again? The only real lesson I see here is that the Bulls need to ease off the gas peddle and place less priority on winning every game and focus on the long run. We need to pace ourselves so we win games in the regular season but are still relatively healthy and have gas left in the tank to compete in the playoffs. Also Rose needs help to lessen the burden placed on him. If these two lessons are learned then we can come back and compete again.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

taco_daddy said:


> I could care less whose fault it is that Rose got injured. No one is going to pay for it, we all just lose out on the opportunity to root for our team to win a championship.
> 
> What I do care about is lessons learned. What can be learned from this incident to lower the chance that something like this will happen again? The only real lesson I see here is that the Bulls need to ease off the gas peddle and place less priority on winning every game and focus on the long run. We need to pace ourselves so we win games in the regular season but are still relatively healthy and have gas left in the tank to compete in the playoffs. Also Rose needs help to lessen the burden placed on him. If these two lessons are learned then we can come back and compete again.


The reason SOME people are apportioning fault is because of the novice nature in which apologists are approaching this.

You want to know what "can be learned"? Are you serious?

The average Northwestern, Baylor or Santa Clara fan can tell you that the way colleges approach this situation, let alone NBA teams, is pretty well settled. When the mathematical probability becomes staggering that you could lose, you call a time out and get your key players out. If they do stay in, the only guys exerting themselves are the scrubs out there.

Matt Painter, a coach well known for demanding max effort, would never have had Robbie Hummel going to the rack with 1:10 left up 12.

These lessons were learned outside of the Bulls "Fox news like" bubble a LONG *ss time ago my man. 

That's why those of us who already know what was being learned about "substituting to avoid injury when games are over" during the Fogg Allen days are so ticked off. This was pretty well settled when Red Auerbach was coaching. 

Oh, but I forgot. Paxson and his holy trinity of short haircuts have the secret bible of basketball jib. Guys like Wooden, Auerbach and Holzman don't have anything on these holders of the secret of right way basketball.


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## taco_daddy (Jun 13, 2004)

Hoodey said:


> The reason SOME people are apportioning fault is because of the novice nature in which apologists are approaching this.
> 
> You want to know what "can be learned"? Are you serious?
> 
> ...


Okay, now that you've posted this sentiment for the 50th time, what do we do now? Do we keep crying over spilt milk or do we move forward? You keep beating your chest and repeating that you get your starters out when the outcome of the game is determined, I'm not sure what you want. You want a "Hoodey, you're absolutely right!" Okay, Hoodey, you're absolutely right! Now what?


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

taco_daddy said:


> Okay, now that you've posted this sentiment for the 50th time, what do we do now? Do we keep crying over spilt milk or do we move forward? You keep beating your chest and repeating that you get your starters out when the outcome of the game is determined, I'm not sure what you want. You want a "Hoodey, you're absolutely right!" Okay, Hoodey, you're absolutely right! Now what?


Hoodey is beating his chest because the Bulls now have less of a shot at doing anything in the playoffs and his anti-Paxson agenda can be carried out further.

After all, Thibs leaving Rose out on the court is something Pax should have covered with Thibs, so the ACL tear is all Paxson's fault and Thibs has nothing to do with it.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

taco_daddy said:


> Okay, now that you've posted this sentiment for the 50th time, what do we do now? Do we keep crying over spilt milk or do we move forward? You keep beating your chest and repeating that you get your starters out when the outcome of the game is determined, I'm not sure what you want. You want a "Hoodey, you're absolutely right!" Okay, Hoodey, you're absolutely right! Now what?


It's not about me being right! It's about accountability. We need to hold coaches and management accountable in this town, and instead, what do we see? Friendly media members apologizing for Bulls and Bears management and coaching and then homers following suit.

I'm not saying you run Thibs out for this, it is just one incident, but we must hold these guys accountable on an incident by incident basis. If he does the same thing next year and Noah goes down and we held him accountable NOW, then as a fan base it's time for him to go. However, if we apologize for him now, then what happens the next time he does it?

We don't make these coaches and GMs show accountability. They're supposed to be the best of the best at their jobs, they demand accountability from their players. If accountability isn't greatest at the top, you're doomed as an organization in terms of reaching your max potential. 

I guess I'm like Fox news on this stuff in one sense. They claim to tell the "other side" since they claim you won't get it in the "liberal media." My takes may seem alarming to you, because what you're used to getting from the media is fluff pieces, marketing and pro-management/favored players hype. 

When Paxson wants to sign Deng or Noah, we need to say "okay, as what? A third option? Okay, who is your second option going to be? What's your plan?"

Same here. We need to demand that Thibs know what the coach at Xavier or Butler would know about risk avoidance v. the score v. time left in the game.

Nobody is saying run Thibs out. He's made enough positive deposits in the bank account to stick around despite this withdrawal. But it IS a withdrawal, make no mistake. And we need to note that.

Now, when I note that, it's not so someone says "you're right." I'm looking for differences. If you adjust and show that you're the quick and not the dead, and you're more aware and cautious, then you're walking the path of a John Wooden, ever adjusting, growing and evolving.

If, on the other hand, you come out with this "I was right and I'm gonna do it the same way" schtick, then you're walking the path of Dave Wannstedt, Dick Jauron, Jerry Krause post 98, etc.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Rhyder said:


> Hoodey is beating his chest because the Bulls now have less of a shot at doing anything in the playoffs and his anti-Paxson agenda can be carried out further.
> 
> After all, Thibs leaving Rose out on the court is something Pax should have covered with Thibs, so the ACL tear is all Paxson's fault and Thibs has nothing to do with it.


The decision was indicative of this false bravado Paxson's organization has always had regarding effort for efforts sake.

John Wooden always said never to confuse effort with results. 

How you could contest that Thibs did this is astounding, if indeed you are. The result was well settled. The game was over, and if you do lose a 12 point lead with 1:10 left with CJ Watson, then you DESERVED TO LOSE! 

You might think I have a massive agenda. Here it is. You get satisfied and I don't. To peak out as the 02 Kings, 92 Cavs, 98 Pacers or 93 Knicks would be fine with you. It really doesn't interest me so much, sorry.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

There's not a lot of evidence that this had anything to do with "false bravado"... coaches tend to play their starters at the end of playoff games. Popovich didn't pull his starters until there was a little over 2 minutes left and the Spurs had an 18 point lead... the only difference is that none of their guys experienced a freak injury. 

I'm sure Tom Thibodeau wishes in retrospect that Rose wasn't out there... who doesn't? That doesn't mean he did something negligent as a coach or deserves to shoulder the blame. It doesn't seem like anyone thinks that Tom Thibodeau should be fired over this, so what is the point in ranting and raving about accountability? 

That being said, I get having a difference of opinion on that... what I don't get is all of the constant bitching about "apologists", the Bulls "fox news bubble" and the hostile arguments directed at strawmen... that got old a while ago.


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## taco_daddy (Jun 13, 2004)

Hoodey said:


> Same here. We need to demand that Thibs know what the coach at Xavier or Butler would know about risk avoidance v. the score v. time left in the game.


So in other words, lessons learned. I think that was what I said in the original post you started disagreeing with me on. Let me say this again, if Thibs learns from this and makes the adjustments and the FO gets Rose some help then we will still be able to compete. To be sure, Thibs takes winning every game too seriously and leaving Rose in the last minute is a part of that mentality. Thibs needs to ease off the gas peddle and pace this team. He needs to learn to accept some losses now in order to win in the future. I really don't see where your disagreement comes in at.



Hoodey said:


> Now, when I note that, it's not so someone says "you're right." I'm looking for differences. If you adjust and show that you're the quick and not the dead, and you're more aware and cautious, then you're walking the path of a John Wooden, ever adjusting, growing and evolving.


So again, lessons learned. You want Thibs to learn from his mistakes. I do too. That's what I posted before.



Dornado said:


> It doesn't seem like anyone thinks that Tom Thibodeau should be fired over this, so what is the point in ranting and raving about accountability?


Exactly. If Thibs learns from his successes and failures and becomes an even better coach, what more can anyone ask?


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## Firefight (Jul 2, 2010)

Hoodey said:


> Your point is just not persuasive.
> 
> Just because someone can get hurt any time doesn't mean you expose them to injury when it isn't necessary.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what the hell you're even talking about. Cubs? What's your point?

I like Thibs, but that doesn't put blinders on me. Derrick Rose missed a ton of games this year. He just barely came back before the playoffs started. While I don't agree with Thibs saying the score was going the other way, because even if it was, the Bulls were going to win that game with or without Rose in there for the final 2 minutes. But, Rose did need minutes. He didn't look great all game, but started to really get into a groove in the 2nd half and final qtr. Rose needed to finish games and get minutes. You can't play not to lose... the same goes with injuries. If Rose had a healthy year, then I agree, playoffs or not, get him out...but with the amount of time missed, I feel he needed to get some quality minutes in the game, especially because he was finally gaining some confidence in not only his game, but his body.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Dornado said:


> There's not a lot of evidence that this had anything to do with "false bravado"... coaches tend to play their starters at the end of playoff games. Popovich didn't pull his starters until there was a little over 2 minutes left and the Spurs had an 18 point lead... the only difference is that none of their guys experienced a freak injury.
> 
> I'm sure Tom Thibodeau wishes in retrospect that Rose wasn't out there... who doesn't? That doesn't mean he did something negligent as a coach or deserves to shoulder the blame. It doesn't seem like anyone thinks that Tom Thibodeau should be fired over this, so what is the point in ranting and raving about accountability?
> 
> That being said, I get having a difference of opinion on that... what I don't get is all of the constant bitching about "apologists", the Bulls "fox news bubble" and the hostile arguments directed at strawmen... that got old a while ago.


You're not very good at this, and you're doing what homers do. You're kind of just deciding that something is the way you want it to be.

Why isn't Thibodeau negligent? Because you say so? He's incredibly negligent because he failed to act reasonably under the circumstances. He wanted Rose to "close a game" and wanted him to exert himself late in a game where the Bulls were up 12 with 1:10 left.

Is it reasonable to think a game is not "closed" when you're up by that much? No. The game is over. If by close he means "be out there in playoff minutes" there was plenty of time for that earlier and then you get him back out there in game 2 only in minutes where the game is at issue. 

When I have seen other good coaches have players out there when the game is over with 1:10 left, have they had those players driving to the basket? Or is Michael Jordan passing the ball to Rodney McCray or Craig Hodges who are going to either run the clock down, get fouled or throw up a jumper late in the shot clock? 

If you want to talk about negligence, let's talk about it. But he's not meeting the standard of not being negligent just because you say so. You're apologizing for him.

As for what you think of me, I'm expressing analogies and thoughts as I see them. You're now probably going to turn it into a contest to get my opinion moderated (simply because you don't like it) by making ME as a poster a focal point. a) I don't care about what you think about the subjects I bring up or how "old" they are, b) it just shows that you have to resort to the "he's not a nice guy, get him out of here" approach because you're afraid of rationale that conflicts with your homerism being prevalent in the debate.

This is how you people have controlled forums like these since 04. I remember when you'd become a "bad guy" on realgm for showing any dissent toward Hinrich.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

taco_daddy said:


> So in other words, lessons learned. I think that was what I said in the original post you started disagreeing with me on. Let me say this again, if Thibs learns from this and makes the adjustments and the FO gets Rose some help then we will still be able to compete. To be sure, Thibs takes winning every game too seriously and leaving Rose in the last minute is a part of that mentality. Thibs needs to ease off the gas peddle and pace this team. He needs to learn to accept some losses now in order to win in the future. I really don't see where your disagreement comes in at.


Because you just said that, but that's not what most people are saying, including Thibs. You've made a great stride in acknowledging what you just acknowledged, that he's "taking it too seriously" (meaningless moments) and that he needs to learn a lesson. Now, go read some of the other posts and is that what you're seeing, or are you seeing:

"That doesn't mean he did something negligent" - Dornado

Did Thibs say "maybe I could have gotten him out earlier" or did his comments make you believe that he felt it was the right move and would do it again?

I agree that if he learns from this, that's great. But you can't learn from something when your public comments indicate that you feel you did nothing wrong. Or should I say you can't learn if you felt it was right and that's all we have from Thibs comments, that he thinks he was right.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Firefight said:


> I'm not sure what the hell you're even talking about. Cubs? What's your point?
> 
> I like Thibs, but that doesn't put blinders on me. Derrick Rose missed a ton of games this year. He just barely came back before the playoffs started. While I don't agree with Thibs saying the score was going the other way, because even if it was, the Bulls were going to win that game with or without Rose in there for the final 2 minutes. But, Rose did need minutes. He didn't look great all game, but started to really get into a groove in the 2nd half and final qtr. Rose needed to finish games and get minutes.


This just doesn't pass the laugh test. 

First, what value are you getting out of 3 minutes late in a game where the 8 seed has pulled their starters?

Second, reasonable assumptions would have put the Bulls at probably 8-1 when they played their first real test, the Heat. If Rose was healthy, the Bulls weren't going to lose to Philly or Atlanta anyway, so you had 7 or more games to get him more minutes. 

He should have been pulled much earlier. What was the Bulls record when Rose didn't play at all? They were one of the best teams in the league without Rose in the regular season and Philly is a regular season team. So if you pull Rose at the 4 minute mark and he loses a whole 2 minutes, you're telling me you fear losing with CJ Watson, whom the Bulls were a really good team with?

None of it is logical unless you just simply LIKE these guys and will defend no matter what they do. 



> You can't play not to lose... the same goes with injuries. If Rose had a healthy year, then I agree, playoffs or not, get him out...but with the amount of time missed, I feel he needed to get some quality minutes in the game, especially because he was finally gaining some confidence in not only his game, but his body.


These weren't "quality minutes." If you had to argue in front of a non-partial group of 11 people, and if you lost, you'd lose everything, would you argue that they qualified as "quality?" No, you wouldn't, because you'd lose. 

Quality minutes aren't minutes v. the 8 seed when they pulled their starters at the 4 minute mark. Minutes against the bench of the 15th or 16th best team in the playoffs are "quality"? How? Is this in the same way that Jamarcus Webb is a "quality offensive lineman?" Does your usage of quality make Moses Moreno a quality QB or Rodney McCray a quality SF? 

The fact remains, Rose had a chance to get probably at least 240 minutes with the game at issue before they played Miami. If the game was at issue in any of the likely 8 games they would have played, and Rose got hurt, then I'd be the first one saying "hey, nothing you can do about that."

But the game wasn't at issue, and these were meaningless minutes.

I've thoroughly disabled a lot of Paxson homers in person with this question. If it was a fine decision, why not play a whole exhibition game after the playoff game was over? Hey, he had to play right? Playing is a good thing and limiting his minutes to those minutes that are competitive in the playoffs is irrelevant. 

Why not just bring in his old Memphis teammates and have midnight madness till 4 AM? 

One guy actually started to reply "because he could get hurt" and caught himself half way through the sentence. It was classic.


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## taco_daddy (Jun 13, 2004)

Hoodey said:


> You've made a great stride in acknowledging what you just acknowledged, that he's "taking it too seriously" (meaningless moments) and that he needs to learn a lesson.


I didn't make a stride, I started off with that point. So you're debating me off of what other people have said? I don't control them. Again, it's all about lessons learned. And all lessons don't have to be learned in front the media with Thibs personally apologizing to you. I'm quite sure this is and will continue being discussed behind closed doors.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Hoodey said:


> You're not very good at this, and you're doing what homers do. You're kind of just deciding that something is the way you want it to be.


Not very good at what? If I'm not very good at arguing Hoodey-style, I'll consider that a success. I'm not deciding that something is the way I want it to be any more than anyone else... just stating my opinion that Thibodeau didn't act negligently or unreasonably as a coach... I backed it up with a little anecdotal evidence... if that wasn't obvious, well, then you're not very good at this either.




> Why isn't Thibodeau negligent? Because you say so? He's incredibly negligent because he failed to act reasonably under the circumstances. He wanted Rose to "close a game" and wanted him to exert himself late in a game where the Bulls were up 12 with 1:10 left.
> 
> Is it reasonable to think a game is not "closed" when you're up by that much? No. The game is over. If by close he means "be out there in playoff minutes" there was plenty of time for that earlier and then you get him back out there in game 2 only in minutes where the game is at issue.


This is where we disagree... I think plenty (that's not to say all) of coaches would have had their starters on the floor in that situation, and that it wasn't unreasonable. 



> When I have seen other good coaches have players out there when the game is over with 1:10 left, have they had those players driving to the basket? Or is Michael Jordan passing the ball to Rodney McCray or Craig Hodges who are going to either run the clock down, get fouled or throw up a jumper late in the shot clock?
> 
> If you want to talk about negligence, let's talk about it. But he's not meeting the standard of not being negligent just because you say so. You're apologizing for him.


Once a guy is out there he's out there.... I don't think Thibodeau is ever going to put Derrick on the floor and say "go play... but don't drive!"



> As for what you think of me, I'm expressing analogies and thoughts as I see them. You're now probably going to turn it into a contest to get my opinion moderated (simply because you don't like it) by making ME as a poster a focal point. a) I don't care about what you think about the subjects I bring up or how "old" they are, b) it just shows that you have to resort to the "he's not a nice guy, get him out of here" approach because you're afraid of rationale that conflicts with your homerism being prevalent in the debate.
> 
> This is how you people have controlled forums like these since 04. I remember when you'd become a "bad guy" on realgm for showing any dissent toward Hinrich.


It would be great if you just stated your basketball points... instead you quoted a post of mine and left a message about "rah rah" and "short shorts" and you continuously go on and on about "apologists" and "homers"... I could give two shits if you agree with my take on basketball and in no way am I "afraid of your rationale"... I'm just annoyed by how you immediately label, marginalize and go off on anyone that doesn't share your opinion.


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## garnett (May 13, 2003)

I'm no doctor but I'm really surprised people are looking for a reason to explain an ACL injury. I follow a few sports and seen a lot of ACL injuries and they're probably the most innocuous injury you'll see. They're caused by landing funny, there's really nothing you can do about that. 

I could be wrong but I can't ever remember an ACL changing a person's career. I expect once Rose gets the confidence in his knee again he'll be the same player he was before he did it.

The Bulls' medical staff is a worry though.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

garnett said:


> I'm no doctor but I'm really surprised people are looking for a reason to explain an ACL injury. I follow a few sports and seen a lot of ACL injuries and they're probably the most innocuous injury you'll see. They're caused by landing funny, there's really nothing you can do about that.
> 
> I could be wrong but I can't ever remember an ACL changing a person's career. I expect once Rose gets the confidence in his knee again he'll be the same player he was before he did it.
> 
> The Bulls' medical staff is a worry though.


I was trying to come up with examples of basketball players that tore ACLs the other day but I was struggling.... Jamal Crawford? Michael Redd? (His might have been more serious)... is there someone we can point to as an example of what to expect from Rose?


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Dornado said:


> I was trying to come up with examples of basketball players that tore ACLs the other day but I was struggling.... Jamal Crawford? Michael Redd? (His might have been more serious)... is there someone we can point to as an example of what to expect from Rose?


Well Redd did the same knee twice so he may be a bad example, but what i can say is that a guy like redd never had the athletic ability of rose, when his knee went he struggled to come even close to being the same player he was. Rose may lose so quickness because of this but if he continues to work on his outside game im sure he will compensate just fine


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Ugh can't we just trow Rose out there Dejuan Blair style? lol.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

garnett said:


> I'm no doctor but I'm really surprised people are looking for a reason to explain an ACL injury. I follow a few sports and seen a lot of ACL injuries and they're probably the most innocuous injury you'll see. They're caused by landing funny, there's really nothing you can do about that.
> 
> I could be wrong but I can't ever remember an ACL changing a person's career. I expect once Rose gets the confidence in his knee again he'll be the same player he was before he did it.
> 
> The Bulls' medical staff is a worry though.


Penny Hardaway? And I know Tim Hardaway.

Well, tonight it looks like we got to see what the Bulls would have looked like if Fraud Paxson didn't get luck in the 08 lottery. 

I don't think Boozer even played well in the sense of, "okay, Rose is gone, forget results, did player X play well individually." Even if we won I wouldn't have liked what Boozer produced. Deng shot 3-12.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Dornado said:


> Not very good at what? If I'm not very good at arguing Hoodey-style, I'll consider that a success. I'm not deciding that something is the way I want it to be any more than anyone else... just stating my opinion that Thibodeau didn't act negligently or unreasonably as a coach... I backed it up with a little anecdotal evidence... if that wasn't obvious, well, then you're not very good at this either.


And what was this anecdotal evidence? I'm not saying you didn't present any, I just don't see anything convincing there.



> This is where we disagree... I think plenty (that's not to say all) of coaches would have had their starters on the floor in that situation, and that it wasn't unreasonable.


Based on what? Because you favor the situation (and the coach making the decision). Present some facts. Here are my facts on why it's irresponsible and negligent:

a) 12 point lead - should be insurmountable against the bench of an 8 seed. If you lose that lead with CJ, you deserve to lose anyway
b) 1:10 left - What good can happen? There's the risk on one side. What would someone weigh out as the positive favoring the other side? Instead of a 12 point win you get a 15 point win?
c) Philly pulled their starters, so it's not like he's getting minutes against quality competition. He's facing the bench of the 8 seed

Any rebuttal you have would be reason to just play a whole second exhibition game for any player deemed to be "rusty."

See, that's a lot better than, "he's negligent because I think so." "See, this is where I disagree, because 'a lot of coaches would have had him out of the game.'" Vague ever? 



> Once a guy is out there he's out there.... I don't think Thibodeau is ever going to put Derrick on the floor and say "go play... but don't drive!"


BS, coaches say it all the time. High school coaches. I saw Washington's coach tell DeAndre Liggins to take it easy and feed it to some other scrub. Jordan used to be out there. He mostly wasn't, but when he was he passed the ball a lot if they were up big. Tons of Bulls blowouts with Scottie and MJ on the bench, and if they were in there, dishing it to Craig Hodges or Trent Tucker or mostly running the clock out. 



> It would be great if you just stated your basketball points... instead you quoted a post of mine and left a message about "rah rah" and "short shorts" and you continuously go on and on about "apologists" and "homers"... I could give two shits if you agree with my take on basketball and in no way am I "afraid of your rationale"... I'm just annoyed by how you immediately label, marginalize and go off on anyone that doesn't share your opinion.


You're much more in to posting about me as a poster than I am into posting about individual posters. I'm hear to talk about the Bulls and disagree with points. If you took offense to me saying "why don't you say 'rah rah'" I guess I could have said it was a "rah rah" argument, but I thought that's how you'd take it.

This isn't realgm 2003. Don't try to get me "moderated out" as a way to control opinions. You don't like the way I post. That's cool, I don't like you either. Mostly because of what you stand for in terms of basketball.

It reminds me of all the guys who used to call sports radio after Bulls wins in 97 and say things like, "yeah, Michael is Michael and that's cool, but they really would have lost without Judd Buechler tonight. He's the guy who everyone is forgetting about." As soon as Paxson got hired, I feel like those people became most of Bulls fandom and media. It's been annoying to watch, because I thought the 92 Cleveland Cavaliers already had fans lol. 

Can't we get a Craig Ehlo statue and put it like 90 miles outside Chicago?


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Hoodey said:


> You might think I have a massive agenda. Here it is. You get satisfied and I don't. To peak out as the 02 Kings, 92 Cavs, 98 Pacers or 93 Knicks would be fine with you. It really doesn't interest me so much, sorry.


It is apparent that Monday morning quarterbacking is your bread and butter. Never mind the fact that only 1/30 teams win the championship in any given year. You must give solice in the fact that you are "right" 96.67% of the time.

Oh wait, my opinion means nothing as I am an apologist and a typical Bulls fan, I forgot. My opinion means nothing and Hoodey is the all knowing. You must be relishing in the Rose injury. After all, Deng, Noah, and Boozer are all getting paid #2 money. We must be cheating as no one else in the league could afford to pay 3 guys #2 money when there already is a superstar on the team.

Fire Pax. Fire Gar Forman. Trade, Boozer, Deng, and Noah for expirings. Miss the playoffs, because the all knowing Hoodey knows what it takes. Sign Perkins to a $4M deal as he is a paint stopper.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Hoodey said:


> And what was this anecdotal evidence? I'm not saying you didn't present any, I just don't see anything convincing there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


People are into posting about you? Please come off your high horse. It's okay to lump everyone that doesn't share your opinions as lame Paxson supporters.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Hoodey said:


> As for what you think of me, I'm expressing analogies and thoughts as I see them. You're now probably going to turn it into a contest to get my opinion moderated (simply because you don't like it) by making ME as a poster a focal point. a) I don't care about what you think about the subjects I bring up or how "old" they are, b) it just shows that you have to resort to the "he's not a nice guy, get him out of here" approach because you're afraid of rationale that conflicts with your homerism being prevalent in the debate.
> 
> This is how you people have controlled forums like these since 04. I remember when you'd become a "bad guy" on realgm for showing any dissent toward Hinrich.


You can put away the tinfoil hat. It's not necessary.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

garnett said:


> I'm no doctor but I'm really surprised people are looking for a reason to explain an ACL injury. I follow a few sports and seen a lot of ACL injuries and they're probably the most innocuous injury you'll see. They're caused by landing funny, there's really nothing you can do about that.


Actually, they're normally caused by some sort of lateral movement. Derrick didn't do his landing, he did it taking off.



> I could be wrong but I can't ever remember an ACL changing a person's career.


Gale Sayers.

But yeah, these days, players can normally be expected to come back successfully.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Dornado said:


> I was trying to come up with examples of basketball players that tore ACLs the other day but I was struggling.... Jamal Crawford? Michael Redd? (His might have been more serious)... is there someone we can point to as an example of what to expect from Rose?


I can't recall Redd. Crawford definitely did. He seemed to say once healing was complete, it was more trusting the new knee mentally more than anything.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Hoodey said:


> And what was this anecdotal evidence? I'm not saying you didn't present any, I just don't see anything convincing there.
> 
> See, that's a lot better than, "he's negligent because I think so." "See, this is where I disagree, because 'a lot of coaches would have had him out of the game.'" Vague ever?



I agree with you that it was the wrong move, but you're being unfair in this debate. Obviously nobody has the ability to poll every NBA coach and see what they would have done. Merely anecdotally, Doug Collins said he agreed with the decision.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Rhyder said:


> It is apparent that Monday morning quarterbacking is your bread and butter. Never mind the fact that only 1/30 teams win the championship in any given year. You must give solice in the fact that you are "right" 96.67% of the time.
> 
> Oh wait, my opinion means nothing as I am an apologist and a typical Bulls fan, I forgot. My opinion means nothing and Hoodey is the all knowing. You must be relishing in the Rose injury. After all, Deng, Noah, and Boozer are all getting paid #2 money. We must be cheating as no one else in the league could afford to pay 3 guys #2 money when there already is a superstar on the team.
> 
> Fire Pax. Fire Gar Forman. Trade, Boozer, Deng, and Noah for expirings. Miss the playoffs, because the all knowing Hoodey knows what it takes. Sign Perkins to a $4M deal as he is a paint stopper.


I actually don't like the Rose injury as far as wanting Paxson gone. It's going to be an excuse if nothing else. "Hey, we were going to win the championship (pause) until Derrick got hurt."

As far as your comment about only 1 in 30 teams, I think you're missing something. Paxson's fans spent years saying that you had to get lucky. "You need a superstar, and you have to get lucky to get one of those" - Paxson fans

Well, we did get one of those. We're one of 5 teams that has the kind of player you can realistically say puts you in that next echelon. 

Heat - James, Wade
Bulls - Rose
Thunder - Durant
Spurs - Duncan
Lakers - Bryant

So our chances are more like 1 in 5, since Paxson's own fans said you "have to get lucky."

The Cavaliers were more like 1 in 29 back in the 90s, because they didn't luck into a player like that. WITH Rose we were probably going to peak out at the 02 Kings level, except their best player was mediocre Chris Webber, not a guy who will probably still go down at least as a fringe top 25 player.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Hoodey said:


> I actually don't like the Rose injury as far as wanting Paxson gone. It's going to be an excuse if nothing else. "Hey, we were going to win the championship (pause) until Derrick got hurt."
> 
> As far as your comment about only 1 in 30 teams, I think you're missing something. Paxson's fans spent years saying that you had to get lucky. "You need a superstar, and you have to get lucky to get one of those" - Paxson fans
> 
> ...


I think you are leaving a few guys out.

Clippers - Paul
Orlando - Dwight
Dallas - Dirk
Minnesota - Love, arguably.

By that logic, which I get because you are looking that the now, there are 9 guys you can build a team around to win a championship. 11 if you count Wade and Westbrook. 11% or 9% chance isn't all that different from a 3.33% chance, and my point remains the same.

You act as though this is the only championship window for Rose. Kid's 23 and still learning and improving, injury aside.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Rhyder said:


> I think you are leaving a few guys out.
> 
> Clippers - Paul
> Orlando - Dwight
> ...


Nah, those guys don't fit. You went second tier and tried to group them with the first tier. Everyone I named has a chance to be at least a top 25 player. 

The only one you named who is going to do that is Dirk. Dwight Howard? You must have thought Tracy McGrady was awesome lol. Dwight Howard is a nice co-#1 only because he's a center. He's not a guy you expect to win as a first option. He's not a guy who will be a transcendent figure as we leave this era and enter the next one. He could be, but he has serious issues between his ears.

Kevin Love? Thanks man. You just let me know not to take your opinions seriously lol. Kevin Love. If you think he's a guy you should expect a GM to put a title team around, I know where you're coming from. You probably think Blake Griffin is going to be more than a power forward version of the Vince Carter dunk/hype show, huh?

By the way, you act like my attitude toward Paxson is championship or bust, as if he's come close to a title. We're what, 9 years in. Let me ask you a question before you give me some high and mighty reply:

Does John Paxson have a winning record in the playoffs as Bulls GM?


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Robert Griffin III came back succesfully from an ACL tear. I'm optimistic.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Hoodey said:


> Nah, those guys don't fit. You went second tier and tried to group them with the first tier. Everyone I named has a chance to be at least a top 25 player.
> 
> The only one you named who is going to do that is Dirk. Dwight Howard? You must have thought Tracy McGrady was awesome lol. Dwight Howard is a nice co-#1 only because he's a center. He's not a guy you expect to win as a first option. He's not a guy who will be a transcendent figure as we leave this era and enter the next one. He could be, but he has serious issues between his ears.
> 
> ...


to me Love , Howard and Griffin are all different as far as their ability to lead a championship team .

Love obviously has no shot , he plays no defense and he doesn't create offense for others consistently , he is a finisher but there are matchups that can give him trouble . on a title team to me he's a 3rd option .

Griffin is still developing , I liken him to karl malone in his early days when he was very prolific but his team often got bounced early because his game didn't have much depth , later on when he could basically do everything a 4 was expected to do (face up , post up pass , defend) he was able to lead his team further , maybe blake develops into that ...maybe he doesn't , but he looks like he will down the line , he does it all in spurts , not consistently .

Howard is not a 1st option , but he he can still be your best player because of his defense , he needs to be a 2nd option...but on that team it isn't happening. i think once a competent team is put around him he'll be fine , but he is asked to do too much , being the best defender + rebounder + top level offensive player is alot to ask of anyone , he's more of a finisher than a creator.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Hoodey said:


> Nah, those guys don't fit. You went second tier and tried to group them with the first tier. Everyone I named has a chance to be at least a top 25 player.


You didn't qualify that when you listed guys off. I named those guys because you can certainly build a contending team around Paul, Dirk, and Dwight and win a championship. New Orleans, Orlando, and now the Clippers have not done that. 



> The only one you named who is going to do that is Dirk. Dwight Howard? You must have thought Tracy McGrady was awesome lol. Dwight Howard is a nice co-#1 only because he's a center. He's not a guy you expect to win as a first option. He's not a guy who will be a transcendent figure as we leave this era and enter the next one. He could be, but he has serious issues between his ears.


No, I never thought Tracy was that good. Pre-injury, he was a pretty good defender, however.

Dwight is not a #1 offensive option, but he's the best defender and rebounder at the most important position to be good at those things. That, coupled with him being a number 2 offensive option, makes him a player you can build a contender around. Assuming he does not continue to shun Chicago, he would be my top guy available to go after in a consolidation trade. Rose and Dwight would be a wonderful fit together.



> Kevin Love? Thanks man. You just let me know not to take your opinions seriously lol. Kevin Love. If you think he's a guy you should expect a GM to put a title team around, I know where you're coming from. You probably think Blake Griffin is going to be more than a power forward version of the Vince Carter dunk/hype show, huh?


I did qualify Love as arguable because he he is the best of the next tier guy between all those you and I mentioned.

The Blake Griffin comment again shows your negative attitude on this board. I never once mentioned Blake in this thread or in any other thread as a potential superstar. Yet you assume I like him, and then try and dig at me for it. Stupid.



> By the way, you act like my attitude toward Paxson is championship or bust, as if he's come close to a title. We're what, 9 years in. Let me ask you a question before you give me some high and mighty reply:
> 
> Does John Paxson have a winning record in the playoffs as Bulls GM?


Paxson is what he is. He has a good track record in the draft, but has yet to sign a big name in FA given his couple of chances (Wallace, Boozer). I like the culture he has tried to develop amongst the players, and he seems to like guys that want to work hard to improve.

Whether his lack of ability to sign big names is the players not wanting to play in Chicago or if it is Paxson himself being a bad salesman, I do not know. I suspect it is a bit of both.

As to the playoff comment, he inherited one of the worst teams in the NBA which was screwed up by Krause's self-indulgent vision.

Given that, he built a team to make the playoffs in two years through the draft with only one high pick in a bad year to have one (Gordon).

Sure, the Bulls were lucky to get Rose. Is that a fault of Paxson? No. He has built a good team around him, and has traded guys (unpopularly) when it was time to. Gordon, Curry, Chandler, Hinrich, Tyrus, Sefolosha. Really, only Chandler was the only guy that could help the current team with a healthy Rose.


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