# Chandler taken out, Crawford kicked out



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/

Wow! Big day at practice!


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

*Sam Smith's Latest*

LOL, I thought Crawford getting kicked out was just a rumor from another board I shouldn't believe 

Here is Sam Smith's latest:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...lumn,0,3878458.column?coll=cs-bulls-headlines

(The Bulls must trade Crawford)


----------



## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

That is not good news, any time something like this happens, rarely equal talent is exchanged.

-Petey


----------



## MichaelOFAZ (Jul 9, 2002)

Relax, the Bulls have no intention of trading Crawford (at this time). Sam Smith is a retard.


----------



## HJHJR (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MichaelOFAZ</b>!
> Relax, the Bulls have no intention of trading Crawford (at this time). Sam Smith is a retard.


I think you might be missing Smith's point. For the past several weeks he's hinted at the potential that exists for some serious disention on the Bulls roster. The problem is, as Smith puts it, that the Bulls have too many players who think they should be starting. Nobody really wants to accept being labeled a role player.

Williams, Crawford, Rose, Robinson, Marshall, Chandler, Curry and Fizer all rightfully feel that they have the talent to start for a team that barely won 21 games last season. And if you think Bagaric showed his immaturity last season by pouting on the court over his lack of playing time, what do you think he might do this season when he finds himself behind Curry and Blount on the depth chart?

Smith expressed the Bulls dilema this way: "You're lousy for several years, you accumulate a lot of young talent, and then you're shocked that it can't play together. So the kids get upset and leave. They can't play together because they're all young stars."

Its very possible that this is exactly what's going to happen with the Bulls this season. We're already seeing signs of it with Crawford. Fizer says all the right things to the media about being a contributor and assuming the role of 6th man. But don't kid yourself. The moment he takes the court he seems to try to make up for lost time by firing up shots from everywhere. There's no doubt he believes he should be starting ahead of Chandler.

Speaking of Chandler, its very possible Marshall will capture the starting PF position with Tyson as his early season backup. That pushes Fizer to third on the PF depth chart. How well do you think Marcus will accept that reality?

Whether you like it or not, this team is being built around Williams, Rose, Chandler and Curry, and to a lesser extent Marshall and possibly Robinson, if he can get healthy. That leaves all three of our first round picks in 2000 on the outside looking in.

As the season progresses, those are the players who are going to get the most floor time. That means that Jamal, Marcus, Dalibor and even Trenton Hassell are going to be very unhappy backups. Now, one or more of these backups may average somewhere around 20 minutes per game. Unfortunately it won't be enough to keep them happy.

So what Smith is suggesting is that Krause move some of these players before they become real malcontents. I think he threw Wally's name out there because his contract negotiations with the Wolves are going nowhere. Lets also not forget that he's recently suggested trades for Antawn Jamison and Brian Grant.

Lets face it. Jamal, Marcus and Dali would probably welcome a trade. All three know they're not the long term solution for the Bulls at their respective positions. Its time to reduce the number of potential personnel problems before the team implodes.


----------



## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

:clap: to go Crawford...

You really showed me you deserve more respect. Can we please trade this moron before he ruins this team?


----------



## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

I didn't read the Smith article, but I read in a local paper that one of the reasons Crawford was booted out was because he refused to run the triangle the way Cartwright wanted it run? I guess BC wanted him to throw it into the post, instead JC kept chucking up shots. Anyone else hear this?


----------



## HJHJR (May 30, 2002)

Here's the Suntimes' Roman Modrowski's account of what happened:

_Crawford, 22, refused to follow Cartwright's instructions on how to run the triangle offense. The third-year point guard hasn't been thrilled with having to battle rookie Jay Williams for the starting spot. And that frustration boiled over when he refused to pass the ball into the post and instead took the shot himself.

Cartwright halted practice to reprimand Crawford, who angrily took himself out of the scrimmage and told a teammate to sub in for him.

A furious Cartwright ordered Crawford to leave practice._

Its wrong when a Gary Payton or an Allen Iverson openly defies his coach despite being players of prominence in the league. It's just as wrong for a nobody like Crawford to place himself above his team. Crawford's actions are a fair representation of what I feel is wrong with the NBA. Everything is about the individual player and there's very little emphasis placed on teams and team rivalries anymore. The league created their own monster by marketing individual star power over teams and tradition, and now they're paying for it big time. 

As for Crawford's behavior, I'm sure there will be a number of you who will try to rationalize his actions by charging the incident off to immaturity. Just remember, he's a 22 year old adult with a multi-million dollar bank account. He has to be held accountable for his actions. Since this is the second time he's openly challenged Cartwright's authority as a coach, you can bet Krause is working the phones right now trying to move him somewhere else.


----------



## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

I don't think Krause will be that quick to move Crawford. He has been adamant about not trading him, and to move him now would show weakness to act on player discontent. Crawford would welcome a trade and pulling stunts like this should buy him the bench, not a ticket out of town. Krause is extremely cognizant of the appearance of who has the upper hand in these type of situations and if anything he will take the extreme approach in giving the public face that he is in absolute control.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Except in a unusual situation like an injury exception (see Knicks), trades don't often get made at this time of the year.

Look for Fizer and/or Crawford to get dealt at the mid-season deadline.


----------



## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> I don't think Krause will be that quick to move Crawford. He has been adamant about not trading him, and to move him now would show weakness to act on player discontent. Crawford would welcome a trade and pulling stunts like this should buy him the bench, not a ticket out of town. Krause is extremely cognizant of the appearance of who has the upper hand in these type of situations and if anything he will take the extreme approach in giving the public face that he is in absolute control.


I would generally agree with that, but this isn't the 1st thing Crawford has done... add this to the list of the Hoops injury, refusing to come workout at the Berto, now this? 

Its adding up, and quick.


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HJHJR</b>!
> 
> 
> I think you might be missing Smith's point. For the past several weeks he's hinted at the potential that exists for some serious disention on the Bulls roster. The problem is, as Smith puts it, that the Bulls have too many players who think they should be starting. Nobody really wants to accept being labeled a role player.
> ...


This is one great post HJHJHR.

At this point, the Bulls are stockpiled with two many young players trying to establish themselves. I'll break it down this way:

1. Paid like NBA starters: Rose, Robinson, Marshall
2. Probable starters: Chandler, Curry, Williams
3. Want starter minutes: Crawford, Fizer, Hassell, Bagaric
4. Want to prove themselves: Baxter, Mason
5. True role players: Hoiberg, Blount, Brunson/Overton

The descension in the ranks w/ the Bulls players really scares me. Many people point to the Clippers as an example of a semi-successful stockpile of young talent. Fine. But I don't envy their situation at all. Though Sterling is a tightwad, he has to choose to whom he wants to give contracts to, though all the players there are asking for quite large contracts. In reality, he (or any owner for that matter) can only give out 2-3 large contracts, and the rest will have to get shut out, sign for less, traded, etc. Hence, I believe that is why Sterling drafted Wilcox and Ely to provide insurance for either Brand/Kandi not signing. Heh, at least the Clippers players get along.

What scares me is that there seems to be little repoir among Bulls players who share time (ie. Fizer-Chandler, Williams-Crawford, etc) With the Bulls not winning many games this season, it could turn ugly, and fast. Especially troubling about this situation is that Crawford got into a verbal spat with Cartwright AND Jalen Rose. What happened to Crawford's utmost respect for his UMich alumn? 

Is Wally the answer? Somehow I don't see that happening, but its a start. Trading Crawford and Fizer would free up the logjam at those respective positions, and hopefully give us a solid veteran in return. We shall see. I'm not giving up on these two yet, but if a good offer comes along, I'm all ears.


VD


----------



## DickieHurtz (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> I don't think Krause will be that quick to move Crawford. He has been adamant about not trading him, and to move him now would show weakness to act on player discontent. Crawford would welcome a trade and pulling stunts like this should buy him the bench, not a ticket out of town. Krause is extremely cognizant of the appearance of who has the upper hand in these type of situations and if anything he will take the extreme approach in giving the public face that he is in absolute control.


I completely agree with your take on Krause regarding his need to project an image of being the man in charge. Afterall, he's butted heads in the past with much stronger personalities than Crawford. 

However, I also think he can see the handwriting on the wall...too many young players who want to be stars and aren't willing to accept supporting roles. 

This situation with Crawford isn't going to improve. It's one thing to wait out a Charles Oakley who's on an ending contract. It's quite another thing to deal with a player like Crawford who's contract option must be picked up in the next two weeks or he becomes an unrestricted free agent next year. 

Does he exercise Crawford's option and possibly run the risk of being stuck with a malcontent through the 04/05 season? 

Does he decide not to pick up Crawford's option and leave Cartwright with a lame duck point guard who'll be on the free agent market next summer, probably cutting a deal with Krause's good buddy, MJeff? 

Or does he trade Crawford while he still has some value?

Tough choices that because of the looming contract option deadline require an expedient decision. I think one has to accept the premise that Crawford is what he is, and his attitude with the Bulls at least, is unlikely to be rehabilitated as long as Jay Williams is around. So unless you've got a blockbuster deal that involves shipping Williams out of town, you might as well cut your losses with Crawford and get something for him in return.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> 
> At this point, the Bulls are stockpiled with two many young players trying to establish themselves. I'll break it down this way:
> 
> ...


This is not a new development. This is by Krause's design. This die was cast at least 2 drafts ago when we traded Brand for Chandler which insured that we would have yet another very high lottery selection in addition to the 6 still on the roster from the last 3 drafts. Krause already consolidated some of the talent with the Rose trade. It's been obvious for some time that this needs to be done again. 

Unfortunentely, all of our guys in "Want Starter Minutes" catgories are complete wild-cards at best. Each is still a project and no contender could trade for them and be sure what type of role they could fill on a very good basketball team for this year. 

I really don't know if Krause has much of a choice but to keep this roster together to mid-season and hope that some of the self-proclaimed contending teams start planning for the future, some of the young guys play solid even if in limited minutes, and Cartwright and Rose can keep this rocky ship going forward.

Side note - Ironically, assuming all of the options are picked up, these "Want Starter Minutes" guys all become RFA in 2 years. Also the time that Curry and Chandler could be extended. It will be interesting.....


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Its handling situations like this that make Phil Jackson a stand out coach (granted he deals with these problems with established superstars, not gonna-be-greats). Phil gets everyone on the same page, sharing the ball and minutes for the good of the team. Remember, MJ was the ultimate ballhog before Phil came around (well MJ still hogged with Phil, but well, it all worked out -- the point is, Phil did convince MJ to share and get his teammates involved). Phil got Kobe and Shaq on the same page, and that was the key for the Lakers. He was hit and miss with keeping Pip's head on the game first, but in general he did and does an outstanding job of keeping the peace and keeping the players focused on appropriate goals.

This isn't a knock on Cartwright. Its truly a rare coach who can keep egos in check and really get a "team first" mentality with sharing the ball and minutes, and Phil just had that knack. But this is the dilemna we face right now. I don't know if the staff is up to the task. But I hope someone can bring some sense of cohesiveness and harmony to the squad, because I don't think a fire sale is going to help matters in bringing this team up to the next level.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> Its handling situations like this that make Phil Jackson a stand out coach (granted he deals with these problems with established superstars, not gonna-be-greats).


At first, I thought our situation did not really apply to Phil's past, but remembered reading something recently.

Phil Jax got rid of Ruben Patterson for nothing even though Ruben was clearly one of the 12 best players b/c Ruben had an attitude towards Kobe that Phil felt was damaging to the team. 

It's far from clear if Cartwright has the stature in the Bulls organization to make this type of move.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*maybe its just me*

but wally world is a glorified spot up shooter 

granted he is highly efficient at it but JC is probably on the same level in that respect 


wally isn't a good defender or bebounder for the 3 so i dont see how he solves any problems the bulls have 

plus he thinks he is a max player 

plus to get him in addition to JC you would have to thow in fizer 

i say like i did before forget him and move on


----------



## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

I think this thing is being blown way out of proportion. The report I read said that Crawford was kicked out of practice because he took exception to Cartwright asking him to run drills while the injured Tyson Chandler was still on the floor. I can understand where a player would take exception to that. However, I also realize what Cartwright was doing. In game situations if a teamate goes down you have to be focused on the game. Chandler was probably on the floor being attended to by trainers and Bill told Crawford to go down to the other end of the court and lead the team in drills. This was in part to get everyone gawking at Chandler out of the way and in part to keep the Bulls focused on playing basketball. Crawford being young didn't understand that and thought Chandler was being "dissed". The other report I read about Jamal not feeding the post sounds more like someone re-invinted the story that was told in last years RMR. Besides, Jamal does a good job of distributing the ball during games. He is hardly a ballhog and takes pretty good shots MOST of the time. EVENTUALLY, the Bulls may need to trade Crawford, or, even Williams for that mattter, but that time is not now. This was a minor encounter in practice. Today Crawford will apologize, Cartwright will explain where he was coming from, and it will be one big happy family again.

Incidentally, I had a dream the night before last that the Bulls traded Fizer for Gerald Wallace (I know it doesn't work). Just wanted to mention it in case something like that happens then you guys can just call me Nostradomas! LOL!


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> I think this thing is being blown way out of proportion. The report I read said that Crawford was kicked out of practice because he took exception to Cartwright asking him to run drills while the injured Tyson Chandler was still on the floor. I can understand where a player would take exception to that. However, I also realize what Cartwright was doing. In game situations if a teamate goes down you have to be focused on the game. Chandler was probably on the floor being attended to by trainers and Bill told Crawford to go down to the other end of the court and lead the team in drills. This was in part to get everyone gawking at Chandler out of the way and in part to keep the Bulls focused on playing basketball. Crawford being young didn't understand that and thought Chandler was being "dissed". The other report I read about Jamal not feeding the post sounds more like someone re-invinted the story that was told in last years RMR. Besides, Jamal does a good job of distributing the ball during games. He is hardly a ballhog and takes pretty good shots MOST of the time. EVENTUALLY, the Bulls may need to trade Crawford, or, even Williams for that mattter, but that time is not now. This was a minor encounter in practice. Today Crawford will apologize, Cartwright will explain where he was coming from, and it will be one big happy family again.
> 
> Incidentally, I had a dream the night before last that the Bulls traded Fizer for Gerald Wallace (I know it doesn't work). Just wanted to mention it in case something like that happens then you guys can just call me Nostradomas! LOL!


http://www.suntimes.com/output/sports/cst-spt-bull17.html

Crawford has had multiple run-ins with both of his NBA coaches. Granted, one of them was Tim Floyd, but please don't look at this latest event as an isolated incident. Puh-lease. Crawford hasn't shown the commitment to team or team play that is expected out of an NBA point guard. Its his third year as a pro now, and enough is enough.

 "For us, it's how to be a professional; how to be a good teammate; how to work with your teammates and what level we need to play in order to be successful,'' Cartwright said. "I'm looking for someone to lead this basketball team.'' 

Go Bulls.



VD


----------



## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> http://www.suntimes.com/output/sports/cst-spt-bull17.html
> ...


Yeah, that report says something different than the other report. No telling which one is accurate. Still, I am of the opinion that these things happen sometimes. Bill said himself in that article that "jamal is fine". I've coached a little ball before and I've gotten into it with players before, thats the way it comes down sometimes in any league. Still, it's not nearly the big deal that folks are making of it. Also, I seem to remember a young man drafted out of North Carolina that had a few run in's with his coaches and even management before. Indeed, Jamal is just fine.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> Crawford hasn't shown the commitment to team or team play that is expected out of an NBA point guard. Its his third year as a pro now, and enough is enough.


I would wager that Craw is immature vs. a more serious character flaw. Krause and Cartwright must have known that drafting JWill would lead to days like this.

All I can say is that Craw better be the hands-down better player if he is pulling this stuff. Otherwise, if it's close between the two, go with the guy you have under contract longer, the fan favorite and the apparently all-around good guy.

p.s. If Cartwright is willing to wipe the slate clean, so am I.


----------



## DickieHurtz (May 28, 2002)

*Re: maybe its just me*



> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> but wally world is a glorified spot up shooter
> 
> granted he is highly efficient at it but JC is probably on the same level in that respect
> ...


Everybody tries to rip Wally's so called lack of athleticism and poor defense. But this so-called spot up shooter, at 6'7" and 244 pounds successfully made the transition from SF to SG last season. In fact he was so successful, he made the Western Conference All Star team. For a guy his size to suceed that well in his first season at a new and athletically challenging position says alot more about his all-around basketball skills than anything you'll read in the print media.

Cartwright wants to move Rose to the SG position where he'll create the mismatches vs. being the victim of mismatches at the SF slot. What does that leave us with? Donyell Marshall who's much better suited as an active PF? Trent Hassell or Fred Hoiberg, who have been getting lit up for over a year by everyone else's SF's? Or how about the myth that goes by the name of Eddie Robinson? In Chicago he's better known for his colorful sweaters than his basketball accomplishments. Wally would be a great addition at the swing position. He and Jalen can crossmatch on defense depending on the other team's personnel. And I'll tell you something else. Szczerbiak's competitive juices would ensure that the Bulls front line never lies down against teams like Minnesota.

A team that finished tied for the worst record in the league should have no problem adding an all star player to its starting lineup. Lets not forget that since Jordan left, the only Bulls player who's had anything to do during all star weekend has been Khalid El-Amin who played in the rookie game. What's he been up to lately anyway? Wally makes the Bulls better than Crawford or Fizer ever will. Its as simple as that.


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> Yeah, that report says something different than the other report. No telling which one is accurate. Still, I am of the opinion that these things happen sometimes. Bill said himself in that article that "jamal is fine". I've coached a little ball before and I've gotten into it with players before, thats the way it comes down sometimes in any league. Still, it's not nearly the big deal that folks are making of it. Also, I seem to remember a young man drafted out of North Carolina that had a few run in's with his coaches and even management before. Indeed, Jamal is just fine.


Ace, I hope so.

I want you to read these articles, please:
http://www.pub.umich.edu/daily/2000/may/05-08-2000/news/13.html
http://espn.go.com/ncb/news/2000/0204/335876.html

From the first article....

It wasn't the easiest of freshman times for the young guard. Things started on the wrong foot, as early in the season Crawford got into a physical altercation with assistant coach Lorenzo Neely. Neely was demoted, and left the team at the end of the season.

Now Crawford's leaving too.

But Jamal faced more than fisticuffs with a coach. He had flare ups at practice. He was benched by coach Ellerbe for the first 14 minutes of the Illinois game. The press twisted his words into headlines that Crawford was transferring.

And all that was 'before' the suspensions.... 

I would like to believe Jamal is 'immature' and 'has put this behind him'. Nothing I have read in any publication or newspaper seems to support this. Sorry. Let's see... he has had 3 coaches in college and the pros, and he has had altercations with every one of them? Believe me, I want to see this kid succeed, but enough is enough. If he is perpetually unhappy w/ a diminshed role and in turn... we can get some value for him, I say pack your bags Jamal. He has not yet proven to be a valuable team player for the Bulls.



VD


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> If he is perpetually unhappy w/ a diminshed role and in turn... *we can get some value for him*, I say pack your bags Jamal. He has not yet proven to be a valuable team player for the Bulls.


I agree 100% with your logic. I just don't think Craw is worth squat around the league right now.

If he is not valuable for us, is he valueable for anyone? 

I can't see any of the 20+ teams that feel they can make the playoffs giving up a vet which is what we really need.

Denver, with a surplus of 1st round draft picks, took a flyer on Rodney White. Whom is likely to do the same with Craw?


----------



## DickieHurtz (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> Ace, I hope so.
> ...


Outstanding explanation of your perspective on this matter and it's supported by your collection of reports on Crawford's past behavior!

Lets face it. If you or I had a history of acting out like this in the workplace we'd be collecting welfare checks. Some big reasons why Crawford and other pro athletes get away with this type of behavior is because of multi-year million dollar contracts and militant player unions. Setting aside the financial considerations you still end up having to deal with an individual whose selfish, short-sighted attitude is a cancer to his work environment. How can the Bulls possibly benefit from having a selfish jerk like this around who poisons the air of everyone around him. This is a case where addition by subtraction makes a lot of sense, if that's what it has to come down to.


----------



## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> Ace, I hope so.
> ...



Thanks for the links Vin, interesting reading. I was aware of Jamal's checkered college past. Still, this incident to me seems to be not that big a deal. Crawford has already said he will apologize and Bill has already said that "tomorrow is another day". I chalk this up to Cartwright pushing, probing and testing players. Cartwright did the right thing. Hopefully Jamal will learn from this experience. We all have off days. Still, Jamal is a phenomenal talent. I think this kid could even be better than some of his most ardent supporters expect one day. I say lets just wait and see what happens. Besides, even if the Bulls DO decide to trade him, why not showcase him during the regular season first so they can really get something juicy in return?


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the links Vin, interesting reading. I was aware of Jamal's checkered college past. Still, this incident to me seems to be not that big a deal. Crawford has already said he will apologize and Bill has already said that "tomorrow is another day". I chalk this up to Cartwright pushing, probing and testing players. Cartwright did the right thing. Hopefully Jamal will learn from this experience. We all have off days. Still, Jamal is a phenomenal talent. I think this kid could even be better than some of his most ardent supporters expect one day. I say lets just wait and see what happens. Besides, even if the Bulls DO decide to trade him, why not showcase him during the regular season first so they can really get something juicy in return?


Hey man I want the guy to succeed. Its just that I see way too many past incidents and occurances for this to be labeled as remotely isolated. 4 years, 3 coaches, and numerous problems. That just doesn't add up.

I think everyone agrees Jamal is a talent. No doubt. But the last thing I would want as an organization is to have one of their young players consistently undermine their coaching, and especially at the PG position. The PG is the 'quarterback' of the team, and its very troubling that he has managed to bicker w/ the team coach and the team's best player all in the same practice. Ugh.

As much as everyone villifies Tim Floyd as a baffoon or horrible NBA coach... it was Jamal's fault he didn't play his first year in the league. I mean Khalid El-Amin (another rookie) started many of the games that year at PG?!! Khalid El-Amin?!! If Crawford had practiced well and ran the offense, he would have played. Period.

The same goes for this season. If he outplays Jay Williams, he should play and start. But these incidents (past and present) put a couple stikes against him, so he will need to be THAT MUCH BETTER for him to earn the starting PG job. And thus far, I don't think he has earned the job.


VD


----------



## DickieHurtz (May 28, 2002)

If you're Bill Cartwright, which situation would you prefer to deal with:

Play Jay Williams knowing full well that you'll have to accept the fact that he's going to make his fair share of rookie mistakes.

Play Jamal Crawford knowing that the possibility exists he might not run the plays you call for, and that if you bench him or dicipline him for ANY reason he's libel to go off on you on the bench or in the locker room.

Its a no brainer IMHO. Williams will give you everything he's got. His background indicates that he's a proven winner, a champion, and no stranger to pressure situations.

Crawford's background is littered with confrontation everywhere he goes, borne out of immaturity and a lack of respect for authority. And somebody tell me...besides great handles and a nice jump shot, what is there on his resume that makes you believe he can lead this team into the playoffs? Cartwright said. "From Jamal's position, I'm looking for a guy who will lead this team. It's probably the toughest job on the floor. Hopefully we can find somebody who will give himself up and lead. Does Crawford strike you as a leader-type who'll put the team's needs ahead of his own?:no: Not even close.

I'd rather live through Jay's growing pains, knowing players like Jalen and Donyell will look out for him as he learns. I want this team's focus to be on the court and not in the locker room. One way to ensure that happens is to waive bye-bye to a selfish brat who thinks that God given talent is enough to get by on.:naughty:


----------



## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DickieHurtz</b>!
> If you're Bill Cartwright, which situation would you prefer to deal with:
> 
> Play Jay Williams knowing full well that you'll have to accept the fact that he's going to make his fair share of rookie mistakes.
> ...


You'd get the same growing pains from Jamal, because afterall, this could be looked at as his rookie year... not to mention Jason Williams has played more ball, and in more meaningful games.


----------



## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

Just a few points to ponder:

A) I seem to remember similar "problems" with a certain #23. (& also #33) Not once or twice, but many a time. He punched Kerr in the Face, got into it with Pippen more then once. Wasn't he also the reason his first 2 coaches were fired? 
Pippen? He was labeled a "lazy ball-hog" with "no commitment to improving himself or his team." 

Oh, how quickly we forget....

All I'm saying is that some people praise Tyson and Williams for having "fire", but "Fire" is tough to control. It's very easy to go from having "passion" & "fire" to getting into it with the wrong person at the wrong time...


B) As far as I'm concerned, this stuff happens all the time at practice, and the public very rarely hears about it. Why was it reported this time? Oh, maybe because it happened the same time as Tyson hurt himself.

C) This "he's only getting away with this because he is in the NBA" idea is pretty absurd. You guys don't think there are lawyers, advertising execs and businessmen out there who are completely immature? If you get the job done, even if your not the most popular person... guess what? You get paid... and paid well.

D) Jamal isn't going anywhere. Still too much potentional. 

If you don't think every other GM in the NBA would take him on their team, you need to go watch some football...


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Jim,

Ohhh, last of the Jamal believers.

I think you are wrong on just about every count. 

a. Craw should not be compared to Jordan for some many reasons. Here is one - Jordan coaches have loved him. Dean Smith, Bobby Knight, Kevin Lockerly (sp), Doug Collins, Phil Jackson, etc.

b. I highly doubt that players get kicked out of practice all of the time. Have we gotten any reports of others getting kicked out this year?

c. OK, I agree to an extent.

d. I agree that he will not be traded immeaditely b/c he does have some potential, but *GMs around the league are NOT beating down Krause's door to get this guy *.


----------



## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

Seems to me this incident is being blown way out of proportion. Bill Cartwright is doing a fantastic job (in my opinion) of making his expectations crystal clear for each player on the team. Kicking Crawford out of practice reminds me of the incident when Larry Bird first took over the Pacers and some guys were late getting on the team plane. Bird told the crew to shut the door and prepare for takeoff. The plane left without said players. The message was sent-- "I expect all players to be on the team plane on time."

I also love BC's comments in K.C. Johnson's article in today's Trib:

_"If I have a player who I feel is not giving me the effort I need, he'll be asked to step off. It's as simple as that," Cartwright said. "From Jamal's position, I'm looking for a guy who will lead this team. It's probably the toughest job on the floor. Hopefully we can find somebody who will give himself up and lead. If he wants that job, it's open to him."...

...Cartwright downplayed any repercussions from Wednesday's incident.

"I'm not going to hold anything against Jamal," he said. "[Thursday] is a new day. Let's see what you come back with.

"Nobody wants Jamal to do well more than I do. But it's up to him. You show me one way or the other. Talk it through or get on the floor and play. It doesn't matter to me."_

I've seen many posts quoting JWill's and Crawford's statistics so far. I love stats as much as the next guy, but I guarantee you that is the last thing BC is going to use to determine who plays PG. He's looking for a guy who plays the game he wants it to be played. That means getting the team into the triangle offense and playing selfless ball on offense and tenacious, hard-nosed defense. I'm sure that point has been made clear to the players-- it is really up the them to determine who wins the job.


----------



## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

John, I believe in all the Bulls. I want them to be the best ballers they can. It's what being a fan is about.

Disagree all you like, but your obviously too young to remember the "problems" of Jordan/Pippen. Hell, great players play hard. Playing hard can mean going over the edge once in a while. Magic, Jordan, Barkely, Rodman, Pippen, Thomas... The list of Hall-Of-Famers that have gotten into fights/altercations/arguements FAR worse the Jamal is LOOOOOOONNNNNGGGGGGG.

Jordans coaches loved him? uhh.... yeah. I'm sure Kev and Dougie were loving it when Jordan had thier Pinks Slips handed to them....

I didn't say GMs were beating down the door. But there isn't a GM in the league who wouldn't take Crawford & his potential on thier team. Period.

Again.. point being: This is NOT a big deal. Move on.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Jim, Jim, Jim



> Originally posted by <b>Jim Ian</b>!
> Jordans coaches loved him? uhh.... yeah. I'm sure Kev and Dougie were loving it when Jordan had thier Pinks Slips handed to them....


Jordan has always shown his coaches a lot of respect. KRAUSE and Reinsdorf fired Kev not MJ. Check the Jordan Rules.

As for Colllins, why would Collins go work for Jordan when he turned down a lot of other offers? Let's take a look at p. 84 from *The Jordan Rules*, _"Krause and Collins became bitter enemies [in Collins last season] with Krause compiling indiscretions by Collins, and Colins calling Reinsdorf and demanding Krause be sent home from a road trip or remain out of the locker room." _

Maybe Sam Smith and I are both too young to remember how it really went down.


----------



## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> Jim, Jim, Jim
> 
> 
> ...



That book has always been a direct diss on Krause. 
That is a very VERY biased book my friend.
You need to find an impartial source....

Please come up with something better if your going to try to prove your point....


----------



## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> As for Colllins, why would Collins go work for Jordan when he turned down a lot of other offers?


Because Jordan grew up.

I expect nothing less from Jamal.


Now can we please return to the point of this thread?


----------



## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> Jim, Jim, Jim
> 
> 
> ...


Well, my recollection of events matches Jim Ian's.


----------



## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

A number of posters have said that some are overreacting to yesterday's incident. I agree. A talented 22 year old "star in his own mind" got punky and his coach clearly let him know that his behavior ain't gonna fly. This kind of stuff happens.

At most, Crawford has only proven to be a minor "head case" to this point.

The dilemma is this. It's early, but Williams is the real deal. Crawford is expendable. I suspect that Krause believes that Crawford is NBA starter material. However, the rest of the league is not convinced. Krause wants what he sees as fair value for Crawford. The only way he'll get it is if he keeps Crawford and Crawford is given the opportunity to show that he's as good as Krause thinks he (Crawford) is.

IMO, the plan is to hold onto Crawford at least until midseason. If Crawford keeps his nose clean, he'll split time with Williams during the first half of this season (NOTE: Crawford is and always will be a PG). This will be for showcasing reasons, as well as to ease Williams in during what will be a quick learning curve.

Net, I think Crawford will be traded, but (ideally) not because he's a problem child. Instead, he'll be traded (later in the season) because he's a proven to be a young and extremely talented starting-caliber NBA point guard on a team that already has one of those (who the Bulls think is a notch or two better).

If you own a stock that is worth $20/share today, but you believe it will be worth $30/share in 6 months, you wait. Krause is in this position and is waiting. I don't blame him, but there are no guarantees. If Krause is still holding his Crawford stock at the end of this season, consider him burned.


----------



## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

And if, God Forbid, at the end of the season... "burned Krause" and the rest of the NBA find that JC is superior to JWill?  

There are no sure-fire "real deals" in the NBA. 
How can you presume either players is the "real deal" when your talking about 2 guys; one with about 35 ACTUAL NBA games played in (playing for less then 10 minutes in a game is excluded) and the other with 0 minutes & 0 Games played in the NBA....

Neither is sure to be the "real deal"... to think either is... is pretty crazy at this point....

Theres is NOTHING wrong with Depth. You need it to Win.


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Question for you guys....

Now, please explain, why is Michael Jordan the greatest player ever being compared to Jamal Crawford? What? Fans, coaches, players, peanut vendors at the old UC knew Michael Jordan was special from day one in the NBA. As a decorated collegian and Olympian, Jordan displayed a talent and work ethic for the game that is rivaled only by a few in NBA history. Did he rub some coaches the wrong way? Sure. Early on in his career though, all could agree Jordan was the Bulls' franchise player, in fact he represented most of the value on a pisspoor Bulls squad. So yeah, his opinions and views could carry some weight.

Jamal Crawford... hmm let me see. He played five hears of HS ball and one in college. He was suspended 14+ games by the NCAA for 2 different offenses, physically fought w/ an assistant coach, repeatedly feuded with his college coach and entered the NBA draft, for the second time. Upon being picked he quickly entered his coach's doghouse for his poor practice habits and selfish play and couldn't beat out Khalid El-Amin for minutes at the PG. During the following summer, Crawford had a nice run of pickup games w/ MJ cut short by an ACL injury it would take many months to recover from. Coming back soon from injury, he enjoyed a decent stretch of 20 games or so for a 21 win squad. Yet again, Crawfrod would spend the offseason in Seattle and at Hoops in Chicago, ignoring recommended sessions at the Berto.

Someone please explain this... how does Crawford in his 3rd season (in any way) resemble MJ in any of his first few seasons? I don't see that comparision on any such level (performance, potential, emotion, etc)



VD


----------



## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> Question for you guys....
> 
> Now, please explain, why is Michael Jordan the greatest player ever being compared to Jamal Crawford? What? Fans, coaches, players, peanut vendors at the old UC knew Michael Jordan was special from day one in the NBA. As a decorated collegian and Olympian, Jordan displayed a talent and work ethic for the game that is rivaled only by a few in NBA history. Did he rub some coaches the wrong way? Sure. Early on in his career though, all could agree Jordan was the Bulls' franchise player, in fact he represented most of the value on a pisspoor Bulls squad. So yeah, his opinions and views could carry some weight.
> ...


Well, honestly Vinny... the way you candy-coat both players stories, of course you can't draw many comparisons.

Now, the fact of my original post (which was, I SWEAR, related to the topic!!!!)... was this: There are COUNTLESS PLAYERS, both better and worse then Crawford, who have done FAR worse. And for the most part, a few little bumps in the road didn't damage them or affect thier NBA game in any way, shape, size, or form..


----------



## DickieHurtz (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> Seems to me this incident is being blown way out of proportion. Bill Cartwright is doing a fantastic job (in my opinion) of making his expectations crystal clear for each player on the team. Kicking Crawford out of practice reminds me of the incident when Larry Bird first took over the Pacers and some guys were late getting on the team plane. Bird told the crew to shut the door and prepare for takeoff. The plane left without said players. The message was sent-- "I expect all players to be on the team plane on time."
> 
> I also love BC's comments in K.C. Johnson's article in today's Trib:
> ...


Knees,

Regarding Cartwright's statements on the matter, can you say "DAMAGE CONTROL"? If he really said what's on his mind we probably couldn't get a day old bag of popcorn for the guy in trade.:grinning:


----------



## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DickieHurtz</b>!
> 
> 
> Knees,
> ...


Can you say "NO BIG DEAL?" How about "BLOWN OUT OF PROPORTION??" 

He said what needed to be said, and who cares what JC is worth, he won't be traded anytime in the near future anyways....


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Re: maybe its just me*



> Originally posted by <b>DickieHurtz</b>!
> 
> 
> Everybody tries to rip Wally's so called lack of athleticism and poor defense. But this so-called spot up shooter, at 6'7" and 244 pounds successfully made the transition from SF to SG last season. In fact he was so successful, he made the Western Conference All Star team. For a guy his size to suceed that well in his first season at a new and athletically challenging position says alot more about his all-around basketball skills than anything you'll read in the print media.
> ...


are you sure he makes them better 

the warriors have 2 probable all-stars and they will be lucky if they win 25 games 

adding players to a mix without regard to how it will play out is silly 

the bulls have plenty of players who can shoot and score much like mr. sczerbiak but can you run your offense though wally?

not if you want to win you dont 

and other is the difference between an all-star type player like Rose and ol' wally world plus add to that he doesn't seem to be the best teammate the world has ever seen (who else in the world doesn't get along with KG?)

not really the type of player I would go out of my way to put into a leadership position of a young and impressionable team

in addition wally is in his prime and he is basically maxing out his talents i doubt there is much more to the package and I believe in a couple of years JC by himself will be a better player and fizer might be as well


----------



## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DickieHurtz</b>!
> Regarding Cartwright's statements on the matter, can you say "DAMAGE CONTROL"? If he really said what's on his mind we probably couldn't get a day old bag of popcorn for the guy in trade.:grinning:


Perhaps the part about not holding anything against Jamal is partially damage control. I tend to take BC at his word here, but I concede we can't really know what he's thinking. But how can the rest of his comments, in which he basically says "put up or shut up", be any clearer? You think Crawford is the first guy to ever get thrown out of practice? Cartwright is setting the tone. If Craw comes back and plays like BC tells him to play, then the battle continues. If Craw comes back and continues to pull the same crap, then the job is JWill's.


----------



## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

Can we get a tootsie roll for Jamal? I'd ship him off for one. =)


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> Can we get a tootsie roll for Jamal? I'd ship him off for one. =)


jokes aside jc is worth at least what he cost a mid lottery pick 

jk agrees which is why he is still a bull

a nagging thought in my head is that williams is being showcased for a future trade 

nobody gets this much good press in chi-town not even Mj


----------



## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Krause became a bitter enemy of Collins?

I can't belive it.

I bet Albeck loves Krause.


----------



## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> Krause became a bitter enemy of Collins?
> 
> I can't belive it.
> ...


If Krause looked like Denzel Washington, everyone would talk about what a great GM he is. "Hall-of-Fame for sure," they'd say....

It's people who can't look past his looks that find reason to make fun of him at every turn.... 


His accomplishments speak for themself.


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

One truism with most youngsters considered to have star potential is that they have to *learn* what their ceiling is and then they calm down and fit into a system (see Kobe, see TMac).

Jamal, Marcus---these guys were never given a real opportunity to see that---and thats why it's difficult for them to right away accept a position as role players.

It shouldn't be that way...and there are exceptions (I think Jwill will be one).


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

To get straight to the point....

Jamal is a good "kid"....and BC is a fairly easy going guy.

Of the 3 reports I've seen, the one who is most credible
to me is the one to believe. For me, McGraw is most credible.
For me, McGraw is the best reporter following the Bulls.
KC comes in second. Roman and Smith aren't worthy of respect
and don't even seem to fact check their articles (small example
Smith reporting that Sundov couldn't hit a 3, when
prior to Dali's foul, Sundov already hit 2 -3's. Sundoc
also went 3 for 4 two nights ago).

This is what mcGraw reported-

"....Not long after Tyson Chandler suffered a concussion and was taken away by ambulance, Cartwright asked point guard Jamal Crawford to leave the court.

"Basically, we were going through a drill," Cartwright said. "I didn't feel like he (Crawford) wanted to participate, so I just asked him to step off and go home. That's pretty much it...."

Also from that article...

"..."Jamal's been fine," Cartwright said. "He's been working hard. I don't hold grudges. Tomorrow's a new day and we'll see how it goes."..."

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/bulls_story.asp?intID=3754629

So sometime after having one of your best friends hurt, and not knowing how he is, Craw was disinterested in practising. Sure, as a professional, he should stay focused. Craw would have to stay focused during a game, if such an injury occurred. But still it's hard for anyone to concentrate after you see a friend go down.

Regardless, this is much to do about nothing, that everyone who for whatever reason dislikes Jamal will use as fodder to support their arguments about what a malcontent and bum Jamal is.

Trading away one of your 2 pg's for yet another 2/3 leaving Brunson or Overton as your back-up isn't going to solve anything esp. if that someone is known to be the source of bad chemistry issues on another team.


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> To get straight to the point....
> 
> Jamal is a good "kid"....and BC is a fairly easy going guy.
> ...


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jim Ian</b>!
> Please come up with something better if your going to try to prove your point....


Sure, Jim - sorry but IMHO your allegations with no backing vs. my using the 'Jordan Rules' does not leave me with the burden of truth. *Give me any source at all that said that Jordan was any factor in Kevin Loughery's firing. Heck, I would settle for a reasonable explaination for a start.*

Jordan and Loughery were very tight and Loughery is the coach that Jordan often credits with turning him into a superstar. I also heard somewhere that Loughery was sure that Krause would get rid of him from the start b/c Loughery knew the truth about Jerry 'finding' Pearl Monroe.

Stan Albeck, MJ's second coach, got canned after Jordan played them into the playoffs coming back from his broken foot despite Krause wanting MJ to shut down for the year. It sure as hell was not Jordan reading Albeck the riot act about Jordan playing too many minutes and making the trainer carry a stop-watch. *So I am going to need some help on this one, too!*

:rbanana: :wbanana:


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> For me, McGraw is the best reporter following the Bulls.
> KC comes in second. Roman and Smith aren't worthy of respect
> and don't even seem to fact check their articles


In general, I am in mostly in agreement with you but it should also be noted that McGraw is the biggest drinker of the Bulls Kool-Aid. He is certainly always the most optimistic about the team. (e.g. see his Q&A with the Kiddie Board)

I thought it was telling that Roman and the SunTimes got another player to say that this type of tension has exsited in camp all month. Assuming the source was not JWill, that is good reporting!


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> In general, I am in mostly in agreement with you but it should also be noted that McGraw is the biggest drinker of the Bulls Kool-Aid. He is certainly always the most optimistic about the team. (e.g. see his Q&A with the Kiddie Board)
> ...


No I think Roman is trying to stir the pot with sensational journalism to make better copyas he is wont to do.

From what I observed first hand, off the court, Jay and Jamal
got along fine, and were actually quite friendly with one another.
Also during the game, both rooted the other one on, and high fived one another when subbing for one another.

I also saw Marcus hanging out with Tyson.

The guy who really didn't seem to associate with his teammates was Blount, who at 34 yrs of age seemed to have a hard time relating to the youngsters.

So again Roman's "dissent" is probably more of his creating controversy, becuase of the "what bleeds leads" mentality of too many journalists


----------



## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

The best bit of reporting on this incident came straight from the much-maligned Sam Smith:

"Aaron Goodwin, Crawford's Seattle-based agent, talked to his client and to Krause Wednesday afternoon.

"I made sure Jamal knew he was wrong," Goodwin said. "It's Bill's team."

That's a great quote and one that leads me to believe this dust-up has been blown way out of proportion.


----------



## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> Sure, Jim - sorry but IMHO your allegations with no backing vs. my using the 'Jordan Rules' does not leave me with the burden of truth. *Give me any source at all that said that Jordan was any factor in Kevin Loughery's firing. Heck, I would settle for a reasonable explaination for a start.*
> ...


Well, Johns, I know you'll rip me a new one for this.... but I'm not going to back up my statements. There's just no way I'm going to find newspaper articles from 1984-1988.... I just don't have the time... The internet wasn't there to log everything back then. So I'm just going by what I read and heard during that time. Take it for what it's worth... 

In Jordans 1st 4 years (or until Phil's 2nd year or so), Jordan was NOT viewed as a "savior" as many seem to cherry-coat it nowadays. Everyone knew his was special, and he showed flashes of greatness, of the player he would one day become. But he was not, by any stretch of the imagination, a "franchise"... YET. I can clearly remember the overwheleming consenses that Jordan was a "coach killer." 3 coaches in 4 years? Until Phil came and settled him down, Jordan was selfish and FAR from team-oriented. It was only after the 88-89 season that Jordan began to play like the player we all remember.

So you can recite Smith all day long, but his "book" doesn't do anything for me. sorry. I think they guy is, and always has been, one of the most worthless men every to put a word to paper (at least in regards to the Bulls anyways. I'm sure his work elsewhere is extrodinary....  ).


----------



## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Kevin definitely knew that Krause was spreading the word about how he discovered the Pearl. LOL!

johnston797 you are indeed right about Jordan and his relationships with his coaches.


----------



## laso (Jul 24, 2002)

I am concerned with the Jamal incident. As Smith says, we have a number of young talented players, some of whom are borderline head cases. Tyson seems to be borderline. Jamal seems to be borderline. Not only because of this incident but also because of his attitude when Jay was drafted. He started pouting right away and feeding the media with defensive quotes. Rather than taking the challenge and just playing. Too many young punks (or borderline punks) cannot be good. 

As for what we should do right now, probably nothing. I think Cartright did the right thing and he should be even tougher to begin with. Get these babies in-line. Teach them discipline and try to correct their path. You can't trade these players out of panic. Even if this means we'll have a tough early season. (we'll have a tough early season anyway.) Give Jamal some minutes early in the season. If he shows he can play, it will bump his trade value. It could even make him happier and bring him in-line. If anything, it will both motivate Jay and ease his transition. Medium term, (maybe mid season, maybe this summer, trade Jamal if you can get someone for him. If you can get a quality backup big guy (someone who plays D) that's great. It will complement the nucleus. Long term, Jay should be our point anyway.


----------



## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> Kevin definitely knew that Krause was spreading the word about how he discovered the Pearl. LOL!
> 
> johnston797 you are indeed right about Jordan and his relationships with his coaches.


I remember Loughery saying after the fact that was the reason he was fired. Sour grapes.

The way I remember it, when Reinsdorf took over the team he made it pretty clear that his primary objective was to get the team to play unselfish, team-oriented basketball ala the early 70's Knicks teams that he remembered from his youth. Krause bought into this whole-heartedly (and does to this day). Loughery, Albeck, and Collins were all fired (among other reasons) because of their failure to achieve this. Since MJ was one of the most selfish players in the league during his early years, it can be argued that their failure to achieve this was due to their inability to stand up to Michael Jordan. So, indirectly I suppose one could say that MJ got these coaches fired. But it wasn't anything direct like Magic Johnson getting Paul Westhead fired years ago. There was no insurrection that I recall.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jim Ian</b>!
> 
> Wasn't [MJ] also the reason his first 2 coaches were fired?
> ....
> ...


Jim, back for more, I see.



> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> 
> I remember Loughery saying after the fact that was the reason he was fired. Sour grapes.


Well, sour grapes or not, it goes to show that Loughery blames management not MJ for his firing.



> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> Since MJ was one of the most selfish players in the league during his early years,


It was said that Jordan could not make his teammates better like a Bird or a Magic, but *MOST SELFISH... No Way!* :no: 

First, the league had Dominique Wilkins and Adrian Dantley and many others back then. Hell, for his D alone, he could not be judged most selfish.

In his rookie year, Jordan averaged 28 ppg on 52% shooting, 6+ boards and 6 assists with only 3.5 TOs. I would be happy if JWill can just replicate the Assists and the A\TO ratio.

*Jim, I think you were just introduced to the franchise - in year 1*

Excluding his second year where he only played 18 games, his shooting % ranged from 48% to 54% prior to the first ring.

Jordan would get better as a teammate but he needed better teammates as well.



> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!it can be argued that [his coaches'] failure to achieve this was due to their inability to stand up to Michael Jordan. So, indirectly I suppose one could say that MJ got these coaches fired.


By this logic, is every coach fired by his players however indirect?

Given that Kevin Loughery only coached Jordan in his rookie year and MJ's play (see stats above), this premise does not hold water. Here are a few other theories a lot more belivable (firing an inherited coach, mgmt getting rid of a mediore coach after 2 years, Krause\Lougherhy personality issues, Loughery\Reinsdorf strategic clashes, etc..)

Moving on to Albeck....

From Bulls.com, "Stan Albeck was named the new head coach for 1985-86, but the season took a disastrous turn when Jordan sustained a broken foot in the Bulls' third game. Many thought he would miss the rest of the season, but Jordan returned triumphantly on March 15 (after missing 64 games) and helped Chicago to a playoff berth despite the club's 30-52 record...and the Bulls fired Albeck after the season. "

So hard to see how MJ is directly or indirectly involved with Albeck's firing unless you want to blame MJ for breaking his foot or wanting to play once it was healed. 



> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> But it wasn't anything direct like Magic Johnson getting Paul Westhead fired years ago. There was no insurrection that I recall.


Thank You! Mgmt (Reisdorf\Krause) wanted to fire Albeck and Loughery and they did it - not MJ. Plain and simple.


----------



## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Albeck's firing was because he played MJ more than the prescribed minutes, which allowed the Bulls to reach the playoffs. Management, read Krause, was not happy about it. So it was more due to insubordination rather than lack of results.


----------



## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> Well, sour grapes or not, it goes to show that Loughery blames management not MJ for his firing.


Who Loughery blames for his firing has absolutely no bearing on the actual reason(s) why he was fired.



> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> It was said that Jordan could not make his teammates better like a Bird or a Magic, but *MOST SELFISH... No Way!* :no:
> 
> First, the league had Dominique Wilkins and Adrian Dantley and many others back then. Hell, for his D alone, he could not be judged most selfish.


I said he was _one of_ the most selfish, and I stand by it.

I full well realize the statistics MJ posted in his early years. I also full well realize MJ was a great defensive player. One can post great stats, including great shooting percentage and a high number of assists, and still be considered a selfish player.

I'm also fully aware MJ didn't have much in the way of teammates back then. 

However, the point is Krause (and Reinsdorf) realized the Bulls would never become a championship team with Jordan playing the way he was. Guess what? They were right.



> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> By this logic, is every coach fired by his player however indirect?
> 
> Given that Kevin Loughery only coached Jordan in his rookie year and MJ's play (see stats above), this premise does not hold water. Here are a few other theories a lot more belivable (firing an inherited coach, mgmt getting rid of a mediore coach after 2 years, Krause\Lougherhy personality issues, Loughery\Reinsdorf strategic clashes, etc..)


Krause/Reinsdorf wanted the Bulls to play a certain style of basketball (one they ultimately would under Phil Jackson). Loughery, Albeck, and Collins were either unable or unwilling to stand up to MJ and get him to involve his teammates offensively. This was the primary reason, in my opinion, these coaches were fired, but I did qualify my statement by saying it was this reason among other possible reasons (some of which you pointed out). In Collins's case in particular, I believe there were other issues involved.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> I said [MJ] was _one of_ the most selfish, and I stand by it.
> 
> I full well realize the statistics MJ posted in his early years. I also full well realize MJ was a great defensive player. One can post great stats, including great shooting percentage and a high number of assists, and still be considered a selfish player.


Fine, we both agree that MJ needed to get more selfless for the good of the team. When he was critisized, as I recall, it was in comparision to Magic and Bird - maybe the two most selfless players of all time. 

We can agree to disagree about how selffish he was.



> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> However, the point is Krause (and Reinsdorf) realized the Bulls would never become a championship team with Jordan playing the way he was. Guess what? They were right.


I agree. Good for them. They pulled the trigger on coaches faster than anyone in the league. The Collins firing was a shock to everyone. Because they pulled the trigger so fast, people assumed that the real issues were not basketball but personality. Since MJ was bigger than life already, there were rumors about him being involved.

While personal issues between Reisndorf, Krause, MJ, and the coaches existed, we seem to be in agreement on why these coaches were fired.

Reinsdorf and Krause doubted that these coaches had a system to encourage team play and the will to make the entire team including MJ to play it. Since MJ was the only real asset that the team had especially for the first 2 coaches, getting the star to buy into the role was essential. 

*But since MJ did ultimetely buy into the system for Phil, then either these other coaches could not get it done and should have been fired or Reisndorf\Krause pulled the trigger too early on these coaches and should have given them more time as the roster improved and MJ matured*

I think the coaching changes needed to be made and Reinsdorf\Krause should get accolates for making them. Clearly, they want credit for these moves. Remember Reinsdorf's old 'Point C to Point B to Point A' speech when Collins was fired.

Bottom line: To say that the firings of Loughery, Albect and Collins were mainly due to Jordan and not Reinsdorf\Krause is a disservice to all of them. It seems that a major Krause support (yes, that's you, JIM) would agree.


----------



## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

:topic: 

If it's possible, let's remember why the discussion of Jordan and coaching came about... Jim was trying to make the point that sometimes these kind of problems come up in practice.

For my two cents, I think Jordan, from the moment he stepped into the league, was respected as an exceptionally special player. He was of immense value because of how he could contribute immediately, not just potentially. Thus, him having anger problems in practice and having coaching problems was much more allowable. Players of a higher caliber are treated differently, that's a fact. And they SHOULD be treated differently.

Management would be quicker to keep Allen Iverson than Larry Brown. Management would be quicker to keep Tim Duncan than Gregg Poppovich. Management would probably be quicker to keep even Shaquille O'Neal than Phil Jackson, although Shaq hand-picked PJ so that would never happen.

But Jamal Crawford hasn't earned that right yet! So when you say that stuff like this happens in practice, and it does, you have to look at WHO it's happening to. Jamal doesn't even have a secure spot in the starting lineup. The Bulls are still seeking an identity... it's not even known for sure how JC fits in with the team yet. It would be different if JC was a superstar quality player TODAY, and had nothing to prove, and we were asked to be okay with his strangeness.

But he hasn't proven a thing yet. Even Gilbert Arenas had better averages than him over 47 games (10.9 ppg, 3.7 apg, 2.8 boards, 1.47 steals) last season, and 99 out of a 100 NBA personnel would say Crawford has more potential than Arenas. So JC has obviously not begun to come into his own, yet.

Heck, even Eddie House wasn't THAT far off (8 ppg, 1.9 apg, 1.7 rbs). Jamal Crawford is playing near an Eddie House level??

I know stats don't tell the whole story, but if we put our mugs of kool-aid down for a moment, we see that Jamal Crawford needs to REALLY breakout this season... the definition of "breakout" is to perform at an elite level that is beyond expectations. Breakouts are not commonplace or normal, even for those with an eye for potential... they are UNUSUAL. That's right. We have to expect something UNUSUAL from Crawford this season, and expect him to step up his level of play tremendously.

Until he does that, no matter how much we love him, he's still just one of those potential players, and we should NOT tolerate spats of misbehavior in practice or conflicts with coaching staff because he's just not worth it yet.

A player needs to earn his respect.


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Showtyme</b>!
> :topic:
> 
> If it's possible, let's remember why the discussion of Jordan and coaching came about... Jim was trying to make the point that sometimes these kind of problems come up in practice.
> ...


Kudos on a great post, Showtyme. Nothing more to add....





VD


----------

