# Lebron is playing worse and worse



## therealdeal (Dec 24, 2003)

So much for that: "he's improving theory"

Last 6-7 games his assist average went down from 6 to only 4

He has been shooting more than anybody in the league, averaging almost 25 shot attempts per game and making only about 38%.

He had a few good games right after the trade ( Ricky Davis one ).
Since those good games he's been deteriorating rapidly.

If you want to extend this further look at his last dozen or so games.

6 - 18

12 - 26

5 - 19

14 - 27

7 - 25

10 - 25

12 - 28

8 - 21

11 - 26

6 - 20

7 - 19

10 - 23

6 - 17

6 - 19

This is absolutely attrocious. It is unbelievable that any coach would let such a pathetic ball hog and a guy who can't shoot, put up so many shots every game. This is worse than Iverson.


----------



## AL9045 (Nov 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>therealdeal</b>!
> So much for that: "he's improving theory"
> 
> Last 6-7 games his assist average went down from 6 to only 4
> ...


He got moved to SG? -_-;.


----------



## therealdeal (Dec 24, 2003)

Yeah, great idea.

Move a guy who can't shoot to a SHOOTING guard position.


----------



## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

i hate how u show up right after he has 1 bad game...he is a rookie...19 years old and is a star player already in the league ...20 6 and 6 is good for a vceteran, but is amazing for a 19 year old rookie..


----------



## therealdeal (Dec 24, 2003)

I don't understand why people always say that I show up after he's had ONE bad game.

I just showed you the last 6-7 weeks of games worth.

He's had ONE good game in that period. Every game he plays is a BAD GAME


----------



## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Why do you start a new thread every time he has a game that is not to your liking is my question. It has become tedious.


----------



## therealdeal (Dec 24, 2003)

This is a different subject.

People insisted not only that he would improve, but that he improves with each game and has already matured so much this season.

He actually played better his first couple of games, and was having best games after the Ricky Davis trade.

Sice then he's been getting worse and worse, they even admitted he didn't know how to play point , so they moved him to a shooting guard position. The last 14 games I listed there was one good game. So this is not just about tonight's game.

If this is the improvement people are talking about, at this rate by his 5th year in the league he'll be shooting 60 times per game and making 9 of those.


----------



## alex (Jan 7, 2003)

Where were ya when Brony dropped 38 and then 32? Hey therealdeal, you better get used to him doing that often, because he is the real deal, therealdeal.


----------



## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

I don't believe anyone said that he didn't know how to play the point. The main reason that he was moved to the 2 is because he was showing fatique in the forth quarter (after consistently playing 40+ minutes) and they felt that relieving him of having to bring the ball up would enable him to be fresher for the ends of games. 

Personally I think that he is a descent shooter however he still has to learn how to work on his shot selection. I don't think that there were 13 bad games during the time period in question however which is what you try to imply. He had a few bad games some okay games and some good games. But what has been most important is that the Cavaliers have been playing their best basketball. To imply that LeBron was not a major part of that is to be inaccurate almost to the point of lying.


----------



## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

therealdeal has a point, those shooting lines dont lie. I dont think scoring will be Lebrons niche, but right now they are trying to make him into a scorer when hes supposed to be a passer and playmaker. I do think those percentages will get better with time though. 

for Lebron, I think THIS YEAR he could average 17 points, 7 asts and 7 rebounds on a decent shooting percentage if he focused on the all around game and picked his spots to score. It seems like they are trying to make him carry the scoring load though, so whatever.


----------



## therealdeal (Dec 24, 2003)

This streak of Cavs playing good ball started when Lebron got injured, missed 3-4 games and Boozer was able to take a leading role.

So, as I stated before they are playing better despite Lebron, not because of him.

Dropping 38 ans 32 means very little at this point. When a coach lets you shoot as much as you want ( Lebron seems to be fine with shooting 25 times most games ) you should be dropping 35 every game. It's not like competition is much to write home about.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> I dont think scoring will be Lebrons niche


You don't come into the NBA straight out of high school and put up multiple 30-point games if scoring's not your niche.

I don't "only scoring" will be his niche, but he's definitely got all the makings of a prime scorer in his career.


----------



## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> You don't come into the NBA straight out of high school and put up multiple 30-point games if scoring's not your niche.
> 
> I don't "only scoring" will be his niche, but he's definitely got all the makings of a prime scorer in his career.


Do you think scoring is KGs niche?


----------



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Francis is not a good passer. He can't play PG. He can't shoot. He can't play SG. He should play small forward.

Lebron is the same as Francis. any thought?


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballscientist</b>!
> Francis is not a good passer. He can't play PG. He can't shoot. He can't play SG. He should play small forward.
> 
> Lebron is the same as Francis. any thought?


I got a thought ... all the people bashing Lebron should get a life. The kid is 18 yrs old. What he is doing at 18 yrs old is nothing short of amazing.

Everyone knew he wasnt a very good shooter yet. And he has exceeded almost everyone's expectations and now people want more.

He's got good mechanics on his shot and he is athletically up there with the best in the league. He is obviously going to improve drastically over the next couple years.

Do I care what he did over the last 7 games? No. I care about what I have seen him do. No one is expecting him to lead Cleveland to a championship this year.

Get off his back .. the Lebron hating is becoming incredibly annoying and lame.


----------



## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

> I got a thought ... all the people bashing Lebron should get a life. The kid is 18 yrs old. What he is doing at 18 yrs old is nothing short of amazing.



That is a good point, but it's really both ways: The guy is given a little too much credit at times, but he is also not given enough at times. 

So basically, for every person that bashes LeBron, another is saying that he is great.


----------



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

LEBRON IS NOW 19. Not hating at all, but many still refer to him as an 18 year old.


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well I think 21-6-6 straight out of HS is great. He'll learn to get better shots, to shoot better, to make better decisions, to limit the turnovers ... but you cant teach all the other things he can do.


----------



## Hov (Aug 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballscientist</b>!
> Francis is not a good passer. He can't play PG. He can't shoot. He can't play SG. He should play small forward.
> 
> Lebron is the same as Francis. any thought?


I swear, you come up with the most ridiculous posts ever..
Have you EVER thought that Francis cant play SF because of his height? 
He'd get posted up and taken advantage of just about every SF he'd be matched up against
at least therealdeal has some sort of logic in his posts.. But in your case :no:


----------



## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!
> That is a good point, but it's really both ways: The guy is given a little too much credit at times, but he is also not given enough at times.
> 
> So basically, for every person that bashes LeBron, another is saying that he is great.


Exactly. I have "bashed" Lebron at times, I have praised him at times. I judge him based on what I see, I dont only see the good in him like some people, and I dont only see the bad in him like some people. 

if a guy whos not even a top 10 player in the league cant be criticized without the person being called a hater, thats ridiculous.


----------



## therealdeal (Dec 24, 2003)

And he's 19 , not 18.

And he's already fully developed physically so don't expect any improvements there ( unless you want him to weigh as much as Shaq ).

99% of people who couldn't shoot by 19 , never learned to shoot, mostly because that is a talent just like any other. Mostly you have it or you don't. Besides he's been playing basketball all his life. Would have learned to shoot by now if he could. It's not brain surgery. By the way, I'm still waiting for Shaq to improve his free throw shooting since people told me 10 years ago the same thing you are saying about Lebron: "He'll learn to shoot"

21 - 6 - 6 on 50% shooting would be OK ( not great playing 40+ minutes against crap competition as it is, but it would be good ). But 40% shooting is simply not acceptable and.

DR. J couldn't shoot, but still managed to have at least 50% and his best seasons up to 53-55%, because he was smarter than Lebron.


----------



## Hov (Aug 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>therealdeal</b>!
> And he's 19 , not 18.
> 
> And he's already fully developed physically so don't expect any improvements there ( unless you want him to weigh as much as Shaq ).
> ...


Well when Kobe came out of HS he had a disgusting (not in a good way) jumpshot too. But he kept working and working and now he's arguably one of the best midrange shooters out there. If Lebron works at it, I think he should be able to improve


----------



## alex (Jan 7, 2003)

Do you really think Ray Allen, Mike Redd, Mike Finley, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, and many, many others didn't improve their jumper from their FRESHMEN year in H.S. to now? How about MJ who couldn't shoot to save his life in his rookie year (from 3, about 18 percent), to shooting over forty for some years? How about that?!?!?!


----------



## alex (Jan 7, 2003)

I ment freshman year in college, not H.S. My mistake.


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>therealdeal</b>!
> And he's 19 , not 18.


Ok, big deal.



> And he's already fully developed physically so don't expect any improvements there ( unless you want him to weigh as much as Shaq ).


Thats fine, he's already physically better than 98% of the league.



> 99% of people who couldn't shoot by 19 , never learned to shoot, mostly because that is a talent just like any other. Mostly you have it or you don't.


That is a ridiculous statement.


----------



## therealdeal (Dec 24, 2003)

Kobe had his best 3 point shooting year ( % wise ) his rookie year.

He could shoot, not a great shooter, but much better than Lebron.

Kobe also played on a much better team, so he couldn't play 40+ minutes and do crap that Lebron does. And Kobe was a year younger. Lebron is 19, Kobe was 18 for his entire first season in the NBA.

Yes, I'm absolutely certain all those other guys shot just as well at 19 as they do today.

I mean, Lebron has probably taken over 1/2 a million shots during high school and this year ( practicing and taking 300-400 per day ). You really think that is not enough? You think another 1/2 mil. over the next 5 years will make much more difference?

Sorry, but he's more than done improving any shooting skills.
He can only improve his FG % if he stops shooting and only goes in for layups and dunks.


----------



## raptorsrule15 (Jul 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by *Ballscientist!*
> Francis is not a good passer. He can't play PG. He can't shoot. He can't play SG. He should play small forward.
> Lebron is the same as Francis. any thought?


Man, I'm not trying to be mean but I've read alot of your threads and post. Your bball IQ is sooo friggin low.
Any thoughts?


----------



## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

Anybody can learn to shoot with hard work... the natural advantages that are possible would be hand-eye coordination, leg power, and perhaps some manual dexterity... anybody who has those things has the potential to be a great shooter. It's all technique and repetition after that. There's no secret to it.

LeBron is already a strong shooter when he gets his feet set and uses proper technique... it's his shot selection that needs work, moreso than his skills. He takes too many off-balance shots. They're a better team now and they don't need him to force shots. He'll learn, though.


----------



## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

Who is so much better than him? Where is this other 19 year old who is above reproach? Lebron is playing well compared to all other guards. With fewer than 60 games under his belt.

Is Lebron inferior to Kirk Hinrich? He didn't beat the Wolves either.

Lebron has a nice stroke. It wouldn't surprise me that he's always among the best in guard/small forward fg%. And he rebounds and passes.

He does have too many turnovers. But he might reduce those or just average 10 or even 13 APG in the future.

Cleveland last year:
25th in PPG
28th in Opp. PPG
Last in Difference of those two, -9.6, so they got blown out a lot
Bottom 5 in FG% and allowed FG%, etc.
Last in RPI, 17 wins

This year:
14th in PPG, 18th in Opp. PPG
Difference is 3 times better at -2.8
Rarely blown out
18 wins before All-Star break. 6 road wins compared to 3.


----------



## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

I don't understand how people can talk about how good LeBron's court vision is, but then say that his shooting percentage will improve because his shot selection will get so much better. Isn't horrible shot selection a sign of BAD court vision?

And by the way, Mike Redd DID improve his shot TREMENDOUSLY. The biggest knock on him coming out of college was his jump shot. He worked and worked at it until he became a shooting specialist. I agree that usually shooters don't improve, but that's because they usually don't work as hard as Redd did. He is definitely an exception.


----------



## therealdeal (Dec 24, 2003)

Sure there is a secret.

There are many people with great technique, yet they can't shoot.

Jason Kidd, Francis and AI look just fine, coordination and all, they still can't shoot.

Coaches just tell you that hard work makes you a better shooter, they tell you this to get you of your lazy no masking and make you feel better. If they are good coaches, they know it doesn't help ( unless you're 14, 15 and still too weak to shoot properly from a decent range ).

If it really worked than all NBA players would shoot close to 100% by their final year in the league.

In reality once you are 17-18 and have 3 years or so of basketball practice behind you it makes no difference whether you take 50 practice shots per day or 50 000.


----------



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>scj</b>!
> 
> 
> Have you EVER thought that Francis cant play SF because of his height?


That is what the humor means. Don't take it seriously.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> Do you think scoring is KGs niche?


It's one of his niches. He's a great scorer. He's not a "pure scorer," in that it's his sole focus...but he's definitely a major force on offense.


----------



## Hov (Aug 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballscientist</b>!
> 
> 
> That is what the humor means. Don't take it seriously.


I see. Sorry about lashing out like that at you. From now on, I wont take your posts seriously


----------



## texan (Jul 10, 2003)

first of all in this era of the nba guards do not usually shoot 50percent from the field. 43-45% is a good shooting percentage for a guard these days and at almost 42% lebron is doing a good job for a rookie who supposedly couldnt hit the broad side of a barn. although his 3pt percentage is down that is mostly because he has below average shot selection and that he can easily improve with experience. also, therealdeal, your comment about kobe shooting his best 3pt percentage his rookie year is untrue. in the 02-03 season kobe shot 38.3 % from threes which is his career high. we all know that lebron has areas of his game to work on but please stop acting like he is a horrible player and just making the cavs worse.


----------



## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

therealdeal, what do you have against LBJ? i don't like his immense hype either, but i'm going to give him time. he was a high schooler who jumped to the pro's...he's only 19 now. come on, did you jump on Kobe when he airballed shot after shot against the Jazz in the playoffs quite some # of years ago...see where Kobe is now?


----------



## Laker Freak (Jul 1, 2003)

Well on average LeBron shoots 8-20 from the field, so you decide how well he's doing.


----------



## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Never heard of a thing called a rookie slump. Or hitting a rookie wall. It's happened to pretty much every player that's ever been a rookie, which would be every player who's ever played hte game. Stop hating on LeBron for no good reason. You don't have to like him, but he's a friggin rookie. He's 19 years old. He's never had to rely on his shot his whole life because he could, and did go right around the competition his whole life with ease. Just because he hasn't improved his performance the past few weeks doesn't mean he's peaked out his potential already, which is pretty much what you're trying to say. 




> Originally posted by <b>therealdeal</b>!
> In reality once you are 17-18 and have 3 years or so of basketball practice behind you it makes no difference whether you take 50 practice shots per day or 50 000.


You really are a complete *edited: No personal attacks*, aren't you? I didn't think what you have said before could be any *edited*, but obviously I thought wrong.

The fact is that this kid is just out of high school, and has the basketball world on his shoulders. He's never had to be a jump shooter, because he's always been about 10 times more athletic than anybody he's seen. But now he's in the nba, and has to improve his jumpshot. But you're saying his jumpshot is as good as its gonna get right now, at the ripe age of 19. Well, I can tell you that even over this past summer, Kevin Garnett vsatly improved his outside jumpshot, and he's 27. But how can this be? He's had many many years of basketball practice behind him, so how can he improve his shot, no matter how many shots he took a day in the summer? And his form is just the same, how can this be therealdeal, how can this be.








> Originally posted by <b>scj</b>!
> 
> I swear, you come up with the most ridiculous posts ever..
> Have you EVER thought that Francis cant play SF because of his height?
> ...


That's really funny. He was showing how stupid what therealdeal is saying. Not actually saying that Francis should be a SF.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Laker Freak</b>!
> Well on average LeBron shoots 8-20 from the field, so you decide how well he's doing.


That's pretty decent. He's a couple made shots, per game, of shooting 50%. Improved shot selection and more driving to the hoop could easily make those shots up.


----------



## Cam*Ron (Apr 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>raptorsrule15</b>!
> 
> 
> Man, I'm not trying to be mean but I've read alot of your threads and post. Your bball IQ is sooo friggin low.
> Any thoughts?


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: This had me bugging the **** up!! I guess I'm just goofy.


----------



## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> It's one of his niches. He's a great scorer. He's not a "pure scorer," in that it's his sole focus...but he's definitely a major force on offense.


and I think scoring will be one of Lebrons niches, not his main one though. KG dominates the game in many different ways more important than scoring, I think Lebron will end up doing the same. I hate this kobe/tmac type player they are seemingly trying to make him.


----------



## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> and I think scoring will be one of Lebrons niches, not his main one though. KG dominates the game in many different ways more important than scoring, I think Lebron will end up doing the same.<b> I hate this kobe/tmac type player they are seemingly trying to make him. </b>


The only difference between Kobe/TMac and KG is the fact that he is 7 feet tall and utilizes that height to his advantage when it comes to blocking shots and rebounding, as those are the 2 areas he has over Kobe/TMac.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> and I think scoring will be one of Lebrons niches, not his main one though. KG dominates the game in many different ways more important than scoring, I think Lebron will end up doing the same.


I agree.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> The only difference between Kobe/TMac and KG is the fact that he is 7 feet tall and utilizes that height to his advantage when it comes to blocking shots and rebounding, as those are the 2 areas he has over Kobe/TMac.


Tremendous point. Garnett does seem like a taller version of McGrady and Bryant, as both are able to play-make for others as well as rebound well for their size.

I'd just like to see James do it better than them.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Lord. Are we going to go through this after every single game Lebron plays?

At some point doesn't this belong in the game thread on the Cavs board?

At any rate. I am making a conscious decision right now to be an irrational Lebron lover, to combat the irrational Lebron hate that goes unchecked here. No inhibitions coming from this corner anymore.

Straight up. Lebron by next year will be better than Kobe and T-Mac. The only players you will be able to say that are conclusively better will be Duncan, KG, and an injury free, motivated Shaq.

Lebron has the finest combination of size, strength and quickness to ever play on the perimeter. Did you see that dunk he had the other night against the lakers? Transpose it against Harold Miner's slam dunk contest winning dunk, and see that Lebron has unworldly athleticism. He brought that ball to his ankles and jumped from a fairly crazy distance out on the floor.

I don't think it's out of the realm of possiblity for the Cavs to make the playoffs this year and for the combination of Boozer and Bron and Z to take them to the eastern conference finals. They play hard nosed tough basketball and they have the talent to win like that. People thought they were seeing all Lebron could do in the Preseason. Then they learned that he was in preseason mode. Well wait until we see this kid in Playoff mode.

Right now, there is nobody in the league who can stop the kid when he decides to go to the basket. It's just that he doesn't totally realize it yet. And he's afraid to pick up offensive fouls because like Shaq, when he goes to the basket, people tend to bounce off of him. Have you ever seen people try to strip the ball from Lebron when he is going to the basket? It's almost impossible. He's got AI's football toughness in him.

Right now Lebron is a little inconsistent. But there are moments in every game I've seen him play where it is very clear that there is nobody of his talent in the league today.

Far and away the greatest talent to come into the league. It's just a matter of making the adjustments. I can't wait to see him after an offseason of work. This kid's work ethic is on that T-Mac, Jordan, Kobe level. Almost neurotic. You don't come into the league with a body like that without having a special work ethic. I have no doubt his jumper next year is going to be deadly. Especially his three point shooting. 

What is even more exciting is that the Cavs have really put a nice team around him that is going to grow with him. It's an exciting time to be following the NBA.


----------



## Hov (Aug 12, 2003)

*Re: Re: Lebron is playing worse and worse*



> Originally posted by <b>q</b>!
> That's really funny. He was showing how stupid what therealdeal is saying. Not actually saying that Francis should be a SF.


Yea, I apologized.
Sorry for being an *** and taking you so seriously


----------



## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

:laugh: Very bold post futuristxen... you are going to make some trouble saying things like that... it's not fashionable to like LeBron that much.

I don't need to say any more about this... LeBron getting worse? Yeah, right, I guess he'll be out of the league in a few years at this rate.


----------



## Duece Duece (Mar 28, 2003)

> Lebron by next year will be better than Kobe and T-Mac




Yeah right. Maybe in three or four years, but next year? Hell no.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Duece Duece</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Think about it. He went from 18 year old "hype" with a target on his back, to having the majority of basketball analysts very upset about him being snubbed for the all-star game.

He went from people saying he had no shot to shoot even 40 percent from the field, to people complaining because he's not shooting 50 percent from the field.

At his current rate, he is very much on pace to eclipse Kobe and T-Mac by next year. He's already got people thinking he is on Paul Pierce's level(which name is the name that most comes up when people talk about the all-star snub? Can't wait till this Monday when Pierce gets to respond to that).

Kobe might very well be in jail by next year anyways. And these days he's either in court or on the injured list.

T-Mac is playing for the worst team in the league.

Let's say Lebron and the Cavs make the playoffs this year. Lebron probably gets put on the olympic team. He goes and makes a name on the world scene making flashy passes to guys like Iverson and T-Mac...

It is very possible, and I would say probable that by this point next year Lebron will be considered either at T-Mac's level, or better than him. And I'm leaning towards better.

Could a 19 year old T-Mac or Kobe have done what Lebron did against a mature T-Mac in Orlando on Christmas day? No. This kid is special. And he is on the fast track.

And he's getting pissed. He knows he deserved to be on the All-star team this year. Next year he's not going to leave any room for questioning it. You could see it in his eyes the game after against Detroit in the first quarter...hell you could read his lips.

The cream always rises to the top. And Lebron has been the best player in high school for 3 years. It won't take long for him to get to his place in the NBA. It never does with any of the great ones. 3-5 years...it didn't take MJ 3-5 years...didn't take Bird or Magic, 3-5 years to be considered the best. High School or not, this kid is better than anyone that's come out of college since Duncan. You don't see college wingmen coming out with his build, and mindset. Period.


----------



## Duece Duece (Mar 28, 2003)

> Think about it. He went from 18 year old "hype" with a target on his back, to having the majority of basketball analysts very upset about him being snubbed for the all-star game.




I don't think he was really snubbed, the players that were picked aforehand deserved it. Lebron will be a multiple star for years to come so he's straight. I kind of figured that if he didn't get voted in, the coaches wouldn't select him. 



> At his current rate, he is very much on pace to eclipse Kobe and T-Mac by next year


. 

LeBron *MAY* eclipse them, but its not a *GUARANTEE* that he will. Kobe and T-Mac are gonna improve also. It's not like their gonna turn into the Penny Hardaway and the Grant Hill that we see today. Me Personally, i think that the three ( Kobe, Bron, and Mack) are/will be the same type of players with LeBron being the better passer.






> T-Mac is playing for the worst team in the league.




They may be a much better team depending on who the Magics Draft. 



> Could a 19 year old T-Mac or Kobe have done what Lebron did against a mature T-Mac in Orlando on Christmas day? No. This kid is special. And he is on the fast track.



I don't know about T-Mac, but i think Kobe would if he had the chance. Kobe played his *** off everytime he faced Jordan, the '98 all star game, when he dropped 33 on the bulls in '97 though the Lakers lost. Kobe has that competitve spirit too.




> The cream always rises to the top. And Lebron has been the best player in high school for 3 years. It won't take long for him to get to his place in the NBA. It never does with any of the great ones. 3-5 years...it didn't take MJ 3-5 years...didn't take Bird or Magic, 3-5 years to be considered the best. High School or not, this kid is better than anyone that's come out of college since Duncan. You don't see college wingmen coming out with his build, and mindset. Period.





:yes: True.


----------



## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

I don't understand why do you come up with this topic in the first place. Lebron is playing worse and worse.... and ? what are you implying?

About his shooting percentage, Carmelo Anthony have been doing the same thing too. Bad shot selection, too much FG attempts. I look at that as something positive rather than negative. LeBron and Melo are competitive. They were trying to live up to their team's expectation, which is to carry their team. They are confidence that they can do it; they don't back down from the challenge. but, then again they're rookies. They're still learning and making mistakes.

I don't like this quote:



> It is unbelievable that any coach would let such a pathetic ball hog and a guy who can't shoot, put up so many shots every game.


the term pathetic ball hog is so unecessary. Because we know that he is not a ball hog. If he is a pathetic ball hog then what is Ricky Davis? If LeBron is a ball hog, then he's one of the better ones. Because LeBron "the Pathetic Ball Hog" James have carried the team so far to a 19 - 30 record through 49 games compare to last season's 17 - 65 campaign led by Ricky Davis. LeBron are making his teammtes happy. He helps Boozer to become an All-Star caliber player. 

LeBron doesn't have to take all those shots. But, with all those shots, he's showing to everybody that "this is my team, and I'm going to put it on my shoulder." That is the kind of attitude we see in great players. Like MJ. 

My personal statement on this thread:

It's true that LeBron James has been inconsistent lately. But, he's a 19 year old rookie out of high school. I'm not surprised if he is inconsistent. It would be unrealisitic if he play consistently night-in night-out and dominate the Eastern Conference or even the league in his rookie year. 

Actually, LeBron have waaayyy pass everbody's expectation. I was a big LeBron doubter before the season started. And now, I'm just going to keep my mouth shut. He's done things that I think it is almost impossible for a 19 year old kid to accomplish in the NBA. I think looking at what Lebron have been doing so far, for now, we should be satisfy at what we've seen in him. It'd be disrespectful to ask too much out of him. He's been doing nothing but living up to his hype. Of course it's ok to criticize him, but let's give him a break. He has proved all us doubters (all LeBron doubters) wrong. So, c'mon... let him play through his mistakes in his rookie year. 

If you want to criticize him that he's getting worse and worse ... you have to wait for next season to see if he's progressing or not. Because, once again, Lebron's rookie season couldn't have been any better than this and so far he deserve nothing but praise.


----------



## CWeiz32 (Dec 18, 2003)

I'm a Clevelander, who's seen just about every game LeBron has played and there are times where he pisses me off with his shot selection and his embarassing airballs, and he can be careless when handling the ball. Also, he's still not very good on defense. With that said, he's still a great NBA player, at the age of 19. At times he's great, and he shoots well, sometimes he's not. That consistency is going to pick up through the years...it's not going to decrease. His lack of defense and his ball handling can easily improve over time, and his ability to shoot well over stretches I think proves that he has what he needs to be a good shooter. It's the consistency and shot selection that need to improve and lot of that is linked with his mechanics and his NBA experience level.


----------



## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Lebron is playing worse and worse*



> Originally posted by <b>scj</b>!
> 
> Yea, I apologized.
> Sorry for being an *** and taking you so seriously


Ya, I missed that post when I posted this, just a missunderstanding.


----------



## therealdeal (Dec 24, 2003)

How long have guys like Iverson, Baron, Pierce , Kidd, Francis, Ricky Davis, been in the league????

Have any of them improved their shooting.

Hell, no.

They came in as bricklayers, they still are bricklayers today and they will be bricklayers 5 years from now.

The only way for any of them and Lebron to improve their FG % is to stop shooting.

And since the hype on Lebron is that he'd be the next MJ or Magic he obviously isn't living up to his hype.

His stats are nowhere close to MJ's or Magic's rookie year stats.
Silas even admitted that he couldn't run the offense and Cavs had to get a new point guard ( so forget about Magic comparisons once and for all ). MJ averaged almost 10 points more on over 50% shooting and he could hit at least mid range jumpers, He also averaged more boards and more assists while playing less minutes. His free throw % was 85%, MJ could shoot.
Anybosy saying otherwise is talking nonsense.

People often point out that he was below 20% on 3 pointers. Well in 1984 they didn't shoot many of those. MJ shot about 50 for the whole season, that's about 1 attempt every 2 games. Most of those were attempted shot clock beaters and end of period desperation throws. Of course you aren't going to make many of those. Those weren't real 3 point attempts because coaches simply didn't like players to shoot 3 pointers until the late 80s.

Use some logic people and think before you post.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>therealdeal</b>!
> How long have guys like Iverson, Baron, Pierce , Kidd, Francis, Ricky Davis, been in the league????
> 
> Have any of them improved their shooting.
> ...


All of those guys came from College, so the potential for growth was not there.

If you look at high schoolers:
Kobe came into the league at about a 41percent shooter overall, with about 26-34 percent range on his 3point shot.

Last season that was all the way up to 45 percent for the field and almost 40 percent from three point land.

Rashard Lewis shot 36 percent from the field and 16 percent from three his first year out of school. Now he shoots 44 and 41 percent respectively.

I think there is always an adjustment when going from shooting in a high school gym against players that are sometimes a foot shorter than you, and making your shot consistently over guys like Ron Artest.

His shot is already much improved mechanically over what he was shooting in the preseason and in high school.

Next season I think you'll see him shooting at least 45 percent from the field and a healthy percentage from three point land.

What you look at now is that he is more than able to get his shot off in games. You don't see his shot attempts fluxaiting like you would most rookies. He's good for 25 shots a game no matter what. Now it's just a matter of him finding his comfort spots on the floor and getting his shots there. I think once he finds the post you'll see his scoring and percentages sky rocket because there are no perimeter players strong enough to guard him in the post. He's built like a power forward.


----------



## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>therealdeal</b>!
> People often point out that he was below 20% on 3 pointers. Well in 1984 they didn't shoot many of those. MJ shot about 50 for the whole season, that's about 1 attempt every 2 games. Most of those were attempted shot clock beaters and end of period desperation throws. Of course you aren't going to make many of those. Those weren't real 3 point attempts because coaches simply didn't like players to shoot 3 pointers until the late 80s.


Interesting point. Infact, Jordan in his first four seasons shot only 189 three pointers total. Thats 189 three pointers in 264 games. Lebron has shot 151 three pointers in 44 games. 

Lebron needs to stop shooting threes and get to the hoop. Hes much too strong and athletic to settle for 3pointers.


----------



## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

My question is, why is anybody even acknowleding his posts?


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> My question is, why is anybody even acknowleding his posts?


I actually have him on ignore. So I had to click the thing into another window just to respond to him.

Sometimes you just want to talk about how good Lebron is, and therealdeal is a good scratching post as it were.

And I agree that Lebron needs to go to the basket more. But it's a diffrent NBA than the one Jordan came into. You can't attack the basket like Jordan used to. Even though it's less physical around the basket, it's harder, because of zone defenses and the fact that every NBA roster has at least 3 guys who love to come into the game and pick up charges. Too much flopping in todays game. Maybe once the refs stop treating him like a rookie and start calling fouls down there for Lebron instead of against him, then it will be more advantageous to go to the basket.

Right now I think he is settling for Jumpshots like he did at the begining of the season. He needs to get back into attack mode.


----------



## therealdeal (Dec 24, 2003)

Kobe shot 37.5% his rookie year, then his % was down for a few years and last season back up to 38%

So, Kobe basically shot as well from 3 point land his rookie year.

Another thing people don't understand is that you can't compare Rashard Lewis playing 10 minutes per game his rookie year and Lebron playing 40+ minutes with having a permission to do whatever.

Improvement in Rashard's FG % is only due to him playing many more minutes and feeling more comfortable, not that he bacame a better shooter. It's difficult to play well when you're thrown in for a few minutes at a time and taken out if you miss 2 shots in a row.

LeBron has no such pressures, He shipped Ricky out, he can fire the coach, he can do whatever he wants, because the hype is already there and he sells t-shirts and sneakers and tickets. That is the main reason he's playing. Not because Cavs are a better team with him. It is a business after all and money talks. Lebron is to basketball what Justin Timberlake is to music. No talent, but still sells a lot more than people with talent and no hype.

I actually think his shot looks worse now ( if it's possible ) than in those high school games I saw. He looks stiffer. Anyway, forget about it. He will NEVER be able to shoot.


----------



## melodious15 (Feb 7, 2004)

Wow, LeBron has no talent. I never thought of that! You are brilliant! I guess nobody in the NBA has any talent then because LeBron symbolizes everything the NBA is about.

I actually think he's handled himself quite well considering the circumstances. He entered the leagues as "The Chosen One" and has done nothing yet to disappoint. You can analyze his stats to death but he will go down as the best high school to pro player ever to enter the NBA. And you won't be able to take that away from him. Ever. What more do you want from the kid? 

He's averaging 20 points, 5 rebounds and 5 assists and his team is in the playoff hunt. He is not a point guard, he is not Magic Johnson. Never will be. He is LeBron James. Leave the kid alone.


----------



## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>therealdeal</b>!
> 
> I actually think his shot looks worse now ( if it's possible ) than in those high school games I saw. He looks stiffer. Anyway, forget about it. He will <b><u>NEVER </b></u>be able to shoot.


Wise people usually say "never say never". 

Karl Malone:

85/86, 504/1016=50 FG%

195/405=48 Free Throw%
(FT%, which is usually a good barometer of how good a shooter one is/will be, as NOBODY is guarding you, grabbing you, or flying in your face at the free throw line.)

Karl has improved his free throw shooting from his first year with practice - don't you agree???


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

Okay, I know you are the best admin we got on earth, but no need to triple posts please... lol.


----------



## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> Okay, I know you are the best admin we got on earth, but no need to triple posts please... lol.


:laugh: John, you are something else!


----------



## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

Interesting that you bring up Karl Malone, because he is probably one of the Top 5 hardest working players in the history of the NBA. His work ethic is legendary, I have heard of him lifting weights for over 5 hours a day.

I disagree with therealdeal that it's IMPOSSIBLE to improve your shot, but I agree that almost no one does. The only two examples I am aware of where people significantly improved it are Malone and Michael Redd. Redd is another guy who basically spent his life in a gym working on his shot.

I guess it's possible that LeBron will work that hard but keep a couple of things in mind.

1. Many players in the NBA has an outstanding work ethic, yeah you have guys like Olowokandi who get by purely on ability but in general NBA players are in insane physical shape. Just because you have read a bunch of articles about LeBron's work ethic doesn't mean his work ethic will stand out in a league where most players are gym rats.

2. EVEN among those who work very hard at their shot, they don't always get better. For example, as therealdeal points out, Kobe has not improved his shot, and I think Kobe may be one of the hardest working young players in the NBA today. Some players are lucky enough to be born with more shooting skills than others are.

So for LeBron's shot to improve, he would have to both put in an insane amount of work, AND get lucky enough to have that work be effective in improving his shot. I'm not holding my breath.

When LeBron improves, I think it will be in other areas of his game besides his jump shot. I expect him to become more effective in taking the ball to the basket, and to become a better ball handler and passer.


----------



## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> His stats are nowhere close to MJ's or Magic's rookie year stats. Silas even admitted that he couldn't run the offense and Cavs had to get a new point guard ( so forget about Magic comparisons once and for all ). MJ averaged almost 10 points more on over 50% shooting and he could hit at least mid range jumpers, He also averaged more boards and more assists while playing less minutes. His free throw % was 85%, MJ could shoot.
> Anybosy saying otherwise is talking nonsense.


 You can not possibly be that *edited*! Compare a 19 year old kid coming into the NBA to a experienced college athlete in Michael Jordan? Seriously are you that *edited*? You know all of those high school players that have came out, guys like KG, Kobe, Jermaine, Amare etc. 

*LeBron James averages more than every single one of them, he almost doubled each of their averages!*


----------



## therealdeal (Dec 24, 2003)

So what. Lebron is playing more than double the minutes that they did
( Kobe averaged more per minute and was a year younger than Lebron ).

The league is the absolute worst it has ever been, especially the east. My grandma could average 15-20 per game in 40 minutes.

And I said many times before, I don't give a $#$% how old he is. He decided to come into the league, no whining now, deal with it.

On another topic, Lebron is an arrogant *poof*

*you know we dont allow that here--BEEZ*
Just now he said he didn't want to play in the all star game as a substitute, saying: "I don't come in second"
Then he went on to miss 11 out of 17 shots and lose by 20 at home against Washington. Great job Lebron.

His nonsense about having an occasional night off , when almost every night he's shooting 20+ times and missing more than 60%
the last 15 games.

His nonsense about how he can turn it on and off at will , but his teammates can't.

Lebron is an idiot. Everything good you heard about him was a lie made up by his management. That's why I will never give him a break.

Karl Malone did improve, I knew that and that is why I said 99%.
You aren't going to find many examples like Malone. It's an exception to the rule.


----------



## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> ( Kobe averaged more per minute and was a year younger than Lebron ).


I don't think garbage time minuets count. Because that is almost the only time he played, and wow get stats against a bunch of bumbs, not impressive.


I bet your a really intelligent dude, but seriously *edited*. LeBron James is the best thing to have happened to the NBA in a long time. He is a ****ing man among boys and it is a damn boy! 

Just think, think for once what he could be if he is this good at age 19. 

Is he competitive, yes! 

Is he a hard worker, yes, just look at how much his jump shot has improved since high school!

Is he a superior athlete, yes!


He is the best high school player to ever come into the NBA and that stats prove it. Just because the media kisses LeBron's ***, its not his fault. 


To quote Homer Simpson

"Facts can prove anything that is remotely true! Facts smacks."


You can spit out all the so called proof you want about why he is bad, get all the little meaningless statistics you want to try and prove it but LeBron is truely great!


----------



## TBALL (Sep 11, 2002)

Ozzy, I respect your knowledge and basketball IQ as much as anyone on this board, but to say that at this stage Lebron is "great", is a little pre-mature. Lebron has shown great athleticism, strength, and above average vision. He has shown below average shooting, ball-handling, and I would say average rebounding. He is full of "potential", but all potential means is you haven't done it yet. 

My one concern about Lebron is eventually what position he's going to play. My gut instinct tells me his frame will allow him to put on more size quite easily. The bad part for him, is that as he gains size he will more than likely lose quickness and agility. If this happens, it will force him to move to the front line, where his size will no longer be an advantage. Oh well, time will tell...


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> Interesting that you bring up Karl Malone, because he is probably one of the Top 5 hardest working players in the history of the NBA. His work ethic is legendary, I have heard of him lifting weights for over 5 hours a day.
> 
> I disagree with therealdeal that it's IMPOSSIBLE to improve your shot, but I agree that almost no one does. The only two examples I am aware of where people significantly improved it are Malone and Michael Redd. Redd is another guy who basically spent his life in a gym working on his shot.
> ...


You can take one look at Lebron and know what kind of work ethic he has. Look at that body? Do you know any high school age basketball players who put in the work to get that kind of body? Do you know many NBA 5 year veterans who can get that kind of body?

I think we are looking at someone with a legendary work ethic. There have already been stories out of cleveland attesting to this. Kid just loves to play basketball. And not like how some players will just say they love the game, but they are more concerend with what the game can get them...but we're talking LOVE the game. Fiend for the game. We're talking like back in the day when MJ was saying he would play for free if they let him(and he actually did for the Wizards one year) and meaning it.

I disagree that Kobe didn't improve his jumpshot. When he came into the league his shot was wild, and he had a tendency to take bad shots that he airballed badly....sound familiar? Kobe went and worked on his shot, especially that offseason after he airballed that shot against Utah. And that's how he got to where he is today...or more precisely last year. Last year's Kobe was amazing. And it was a testament entirely to his work ethic. He averaged 40 ppg for like a month or so...that was hard work paying off.

I see no evidence to the contrary that Lebron will not improve. And I see no evidence that he won't improve rapidly.


----------



## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> but all potential means is you haven't done it yet.


 I sure hope you didn't get that from Aneas Williams, because he has said that before.

Know the All Star game, full of "great" players, about 24 of them to be exact, well LeBron James should have easily made that team. Basically averaging 20 points, 6 assists and 6 rebounds a game at 19 years of age I think qualifies for greatness. 

To find flaws in his game now is just being anal. 

Its like telling Tiger Woods as a little kid, HA you only drove the ball 250 yards, and your how old? 10? HA thats nothing, you suck!


----------



## TBALL (Sep 11, 2002)

Well Ozzy, maybe you and I define "great" a little differently. When I say the term "great", names like Chamberlain, Jordan, Bird, West, Baylor, Erving, Robertson, and Magic come to mind. Just because you're an all-star, doesn't mean your great. 

I'm sorry but I can't honestly say that 20pts in 40 minutes a game, shooting 41% and being 3rd in the league in turnovers is great. He's 5th in shots, but 13th in scoring, which means he has not been terribly efficient. I honestly don't believe he's even the best player on his team right now, I think Boozer is. 

Now, I will agree that he is "great" for a 19 year old. But you assume that he will get better. Both you and I know that is not exactly a given in this world in which we live. For every player like Malone/Redd who gets better, there is a Kemp/Penny who gets worse. 

I have nothing against Lebron, and hope the best for him. If he were to become "great" it would be good for the league.


----------



## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> To find flaws in his game now is just being anal.
> 
> Its like telling Tiger Woods as a little kid, HA you only drove the ball 250 yards, and your how old? 10? HA thats nothing, you suck!


See thats my beef with the whole thing. To find flaws is being anal? Thats like saying he is great NOW. If hes great now, then he can be compared to MJ. Then when he cant measure up to MJ, then people say hes only 19. People act like hes already gauranteed to be great and its just a matter of time, which isnt the case. He has a lot of things to work on. 

True, hes ahead for his age, but still has a lot of work to do if hes going to be great. He has plenty of flaws, and people point out flaws in other young players. People say Carmelo isnt that athletic which would be classified as a flaw in his game, yet I dont see those people being called haters or anything. 

Using your example, its like a 12 year old being wayyy ahead for his age in basketball and people saying that he'll be one of the top five players ever. Not just that, but anyone who says otherwise is called a hater. A little premature?


----------



## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> 3rd in the league in turnovers is great.


1. Paul Pierce (Boston Celtics) 4.02	
2. Steve Francis (Houston Rockets) 3.69	
3. LeBron James (Cleveland Cavaliers) 3.70	
4. Allen Iverson (Philadelphia 76ers) 4.50

So Allen Iverson is not great because he has turnovers? Paul Pierce is not great because he has the most turnovers in the NBA?

And I say finding faults in James game at this point is being anal because he is freaking 19 years old! He has so much time to work on his game and I am 100% sure he will work on his game very hard in the future. Name a player in the last 5-10 years that has came into the NBA with more hype? And LeBron James has played better than anyone would have thought. Some where questioning if he would even start, and now people are questioning that he should have been a All Star his first year in the league. 

Sure you can rip on little things about LeBron but that is probably just becaues your tired of the media bounding you in the head 247 LeBron James is great. That is ture, it gets annoying but he is great and will be great.

*I say again and again he is a man amongst boys athletically, and he is still a boy so just think about how good he could be when he actually becomes a man?*

People always need to see something for a player to be great, I don't think that way. Like a few years back, I said Kevin Garnett was possibly the best player in the NBA. And everyone was like bull ****, he is horrible, he has not done anything. True he hasn't but it will come for him in time just like it will for LeBron James.


But maybe it is just a natural thing? Kobe Bryant is a amazing player, but I will never ever like him, I just don't like the way he carries himself. Does that mean he is not great? No. Just like people don't like LeBron for some reason, thats fine, but does that mean he will not be great?

I actually find it kind of hilarious that the second LeBron gets into the NBA he already has people that hate him. KG Kobe Jermaine, I do not recall that happening, but thats what happens when your amazingly skilled at a young age.


----------



## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> And I say finding faults in James game at this point is being anal because he is freaking 19 years old! He has so much time to work on his game and I am 100% sure he will work on his game very hard in the future.


Carmelo is 19 doing just as well as Lebron. People still find flaws in his game and nobody calls them haters.


----------



## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

I also find it funny how anyone whos not like "OMG LEBRON IS SO GOOD FOR HIS AGE MAN HES SO STRONG AND SKILLED I CANT BELIEVE HES ONLY 19, HES EASILY GOING TO BE A TOP 5 PLAYER EVER" is considered being anal or hating or something of that sort. 

Lebron is one of my favorite players, as is Carmelo. Theres some very realistic discussion around here about all topics, but the realistic discussion about Lebron does not exist around here. Its all or nothing. Lover or hater.


----------



## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> Carmelo is 19 doing just as well as Lebron. People still find flaws in his game and nobody calls them haters.


 Who is that? I will tell them to let it go as well. Why? Because the kid is so young it is stupid to judge him right now, obviously he will have things to work on his first year in the league. 

No one is perfect, thats what makes them human. 

I'm ok with criticizing players I do it a lot, but to do it at such a young age is pretty premature itself.


----------



## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Who is that? I will tell them to let it go as well. Why? Because the kid is so young it is stupid to judge him right now, obviously he will have things to work on his first year in the league.
> 
> No one is perfect, thats what makes them human.
> ...


I'm not saying its you, but generally Carmelo criticism slides a whole lot easier than Lebron criticism around here.


----------



## TBALL (Sep 11, 2002)

No hate here for Lebron, I just haven't penciled him into the hall of fame yet. For your sake I hope he isn't still a boy, if he is then he's going to end up weighing about 275 or 300...

Don't mistake realism with "hating". There is a significant difference. Lebron is the best athlete I have ever seen at his age. His physical maturity for his age is absolutely unbelievable. I believe he could be an all-star for many years and has as much chance as anyone to be great. If his shot and ballhandling improve, he stays out of trouble, and has no major injuries,then yes, he will be one of the all-timers.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> I also find it funny how anyone whos not like "OMG LEBRON IS SO GOOD FOR HIS AGE MAN HES SO STRONG AND SKILLED I CANT BELIEVE HES ONLY 19, HES EASILY GOING TO BE A TOP 5 PLAYER EVER" is considered being anal or hating or something of that sort.
> 
> Lebron is one of my favorite players, as is Carmelo. Theres some very realistic discussion around here about all topics, but the realistic discussion about Lebron does not exist around here. Its all or nothing. Lover or hater.


What would you consider a realistic discussion about Lebron?
I would say there are plenty of people around here who hold a realistic opinion about Lebron...it's just that when you get someone like therealdeal coming into the picture and further polarizing the issue, where it can't be realistic, it has to be GREAT! or AWFUL! that a lot of those opinions get lost in the shuffle.

How are you going to have a "realistic" discussion about Lebron when the title of the thread is "Lebron is playing worse and worse" and it's by a guy who has done nothing but moan and groan about Lebron? I think inherently that approach precludes anything close to a realistic discussion about Lebron.

If you want a realistic discussion about Lebron go to the Cavs board. It's a small group of fair minded individuals that are more concerned with the Cavs than Lebron, and tend to be more objective when evluating him. They evaluate him in terms of how he fits into the Cavs and what he needs to do for them to win. But at the same time there's no hatred of malice against Lebron.

Good folks over there.


----------



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Rookie Jordan: 20 years old, 36 minutes, 28 points, FG51.5%

Rookie Lebron: 19 years old, 40 minutes, 20 points, FG41.2%

Keith Van Horn: 37 minutes, 20 points, FG42.6%



forget about the team success.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

As big of a fan as I have become, I think Lebron is hitting that ever elusive rookie wall


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> As big of a fan as I have become, I think Lebron is hitting that ever elusive rookie wall


You're probably right. But everytime I've started to think that this season he's thrown in some 30 point 10 rebound 8 assist type of game...I thought sitting out with the ankle injury would have bought him some time.

It's incredible as many minutes as he plays that he didn't hit the rookie wall in November.


----------



## therealdeal (Dec 24, 2003)

> Because the kid is so young it is stupid to judge him right now, obviously he will have things to work on his first year in the league.


Why is it wrong for me to judge him in a negative way, but it's OK for others to already have him up there with the greatest.

That is nothing more than a judgment call, only the opposite of mine.

Lets be conistent here. 

At least I base what I say on what I see today, not on what may or may not be.

I've known guys who were 6 feet tall and stronger than anybody in 8th grade. By the end of highschool we were the same size, in other words some of those guys ddidn't grow at all after the age of 14-15. Don't assume everybody will keep growing and improving their skills.

One thing everybody agrees is that Lebron looks like he's already 26 or older. He is just one of those guys who matured much earlier. Magic and MJ were skinny and looked like kids even at 20 or 21. They got bigger and stronger which helped their game. Lebron has no room for improvement physically, getting any bigger will only hurt him and I don't think he has much room to improve skill wise either.
He will get slightly better by gaining experience, and making better decisions on the court and that's about it. His shot and ballhandling will remain the same.


----------



## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> At least I base what I say on what I see today, not on what may or may not be.


 I will use hindsight, you can use foresight. Teams wins a championship, people that use foresight say they are great. Why? Because they just won the championship. I don't look at sports that way, sports historians, aka writers look at sports that way.




> Rookie Jordan: 20 years old, 36 minutes, 28 points, FG51.5%


Jordan was born Feburary 17, 1963 and was drafted in 1984. How does that make him 20? And actually LeBron came into the league at 18 years of age. Jordan came in the league at 21 years of age, you don't see a difference in that?



> He will get slightly better by gaining experience, and making better decisions on the court and that's about it. His shot and ballhandling will remain the same.


 What is your definition of ball handling? Because really handling the ball includes pass the ball, and if you think LeBron can't handle the ball in terms of passing you just don't know what he is talking about. How does he have bad handling ability when he can get to the hoop any time he wants with quickness and dribble drive? As for shooting get a tape of every single jump shot LeBron took in high school and every jump shot LeBron took in the NBA so far. And then come back to be and I bet you anything he has improved greatly since last year.

How in the world can you say someone can not improve their basketball skills? The only thing someone can not improve is their physical abilities and height. This isn't like snake handling here, LeBron can learn to shoot better it is a fact. Michael Jordan was not a good shooter coming into the NBA, I don't care what stats you get about FG%, he was not a good shooter simple as that and became one. Ask MJ himself and he will tell you he was not a good shooter coming into the NBA.


----------



## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>therealdeal</b>!
> 
> 
> On another topic, Lebron is an arrogant *poof*
> ...


nice personal attack on a person that cant even defend themselves, i was under the impression that stupid comments like this werent allowed on these boards.


----------



## therealdeal (Dec 24, 2003)

It's not an attack. It's an accurate description of somebody who says : "I don't come second"

and refuses to play in the all star game as an injury replacement, then further lies changing his mind , when we all know it was him management that told him it would be better to play if called in and not say things like those because it may hurt his image and be bad for business.

Lebron is already an essence of Fake and arogance and greed. He is Justin Timberlake or Britney of basketball. He's all fake.

And he doesn't deserve to be in the all star game. Fans didn't vote him in which means he is not as popular as people thought. Coaches didn't vote him in because there are more deserving players playing his position. The only people who say he was snubbed and want to see him there are people who want to perpetuate the hype and that is ESPN, TNT, ABC and so on. It's about hype and money, they all know very well he doesn't deserve to be in the game.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>b-diddy</b>!
> 
> 
> nice personal attack on a person that cant even defend themselves, i was under the impression that stupid comments like this werent allowed on these boards.


We dont. Thanks for catching that.

Keep it clean thereadeal


----------



## alex (Jan 7, 2003)

Gee, LBJ has surely regressed. If he keeps this up, he'll be outta the NBA in a few years.

:biggrin:


----------



## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

Stop bumping old threads :curse:


----------



## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Especially one's by therealdeal. The guy is, and always has been a compelete moron.


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

BEEZ said:


> We dont. Thanks for catching that.
> 
> Keep it clean thereadeal


Beez, you need to mention your age.


----------



## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

I can finally give all my rep points to therealdeal! hehe


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

John said:


> Beez, you need to mention your age.


 And show my true old ***. NO thanks


----------



## toolBASICS (Mar 7, 2005)

LeBron has NO teamates who do anything besides Z. When we get a sharpshooter just watch his Assists go up.


----------



## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

Admins should reinstate therealdeal, I'd love to see what he says about LeBron now.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

hes been here as Greator Levitator who is now suspended


----------



## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Yeah I kinda miss the Real Deal, no matter how wrong he was he would defend that position to the end. Gotta love that kind of inflexibility and narrow-mindedness.


----------



## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Ya I miss him too. Saying Lebron James was a bust before he even played a game in the NBA, claiming KG was 6'9", going on and on about how great Peja was...


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

BEEZ said:


> hes been here as Greator Levitator who is now suspended


I knew it. He never bashed Lebron as much.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

BEEZ said:


> hes been here as Greator Levitator who is now suspended


I'm pretty sure Greator Levitator is our old friend Azamad Bagatov.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

Spriggan said:


> I'm pretty sure Greator Levitator is our old friend Azamad Bagatov.


 yeah thats what i meant.


----------



## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Straight up. Lebron by next year will be better than Kobe and T-Mac. The only players you will be able to say that are conclusively better will be Duncan, KG, and an injury free, motivated Shaq.


Hey thats pretty accurate, so I guess someone on this thread got it right.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

It would be accurate, if LeBron was better than Kobe and McGrady.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Or Dirk, for that matter.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Spriggan said:


> It would be accurate, if LeBron was better than Kobe and McGrady.


I would say the part about the only players you could conclusively say were better part was pretty dead on. There's arguements both ways about Lebron, T-Mac, Wade, Kobe, Dirk, and Amare.


----------



## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> I would say the part about the only players you could conclusively say were better part was pretty dead on. There's arguements both ways about Lebron, T-Mac, Wade, Kobe, Dirk, and Amare.


Exactly, I don't think you can conclusively state that T-mac, Kobe, Dirk or Amare are better and I still think that LeBron is better than Wade.


----------



## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

I don't see how anyone can say Wade is better. LeBron has better all around numbers and he's not playing with Shaq.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

CiMa said:


> I don't see how anyone can say Wade is better. LeBron has better all around numbers and he's not playing with Shaq.


Wade's team is better, therefore, so goes the thinking, Wade must be better.


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

CiMa said:


> I don't see how anyone can say Wade is better. LeBron has better all around numbers and he's not playing with Shaq.


It also has a lot to do with his playoff performance, which was impressive but by no means should have catapulted him above Kobe, T-Mac or LeBron. Also, ESPN's hype machine had a lot to do with it as well.

However, just wait until LeBron is in the playoffs! ESPN will bust a nut to place him as the G.O.A.T.!


----------



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*funny dude.*



The OUTLAW said:


> Yeah I kinda miss the Real Deal, no matter how wrong he was he would defend that position to the end. Gotta love that kind of inflexibility and narrow-mindedness.


his opinion on the baskeetball being played today;



> I'm really thinking about getting enough sigs and starting a class action lawsuit against the NBA. This is fraud, pure and simple. --therealdeal


:laugh:


----------

