# O.K., I'll say it: Steve Nash is overrated



## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

...And everyone knows it.

Its a big deal that he made ESPN's top 10 PGs ever!? A two time MVP should EASILY be top 10 in his position. Something like that shouldn't be a surprise and thats whats so pathetic about Nash.

He plays no defense, and he's constantly being defended by his homers on this board with rediculous statistics that prove nothing.

He's built for the regular season. He won't lead his team past the Clips, and you can quote me on that.

MVP award is a joke.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

Its no big deal.... if you account his best seasons as a Maverick and the last 2 seasons as a Sun... He is easily the best point guard.

Its people who under rate him who are surprised he made the list.

Nash's second MVP and current form, lets be honest he will average pretty much 15+ points and 9+ assists for the next 3 seasons atleast will make him climb that rankings even higher.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

MVP award is a joke until Kobe wins it.. then its back to respectable status... I get it.


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

I've argued this point in way too many threads to go through this again..
but i completely agree, i personally think nash winning 2 mvp's has made a mockery of the award, and i really do not think he is as good as he is made out to be (especially on here)
i respect the guys talents, top 15 pg of all time no doubt.
but overrated none the less


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

This thread is groundbreaking.


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## TracywtFacy (Mar 29, 2005)

i dunno, I hate Nash but he is a real threat on offense... he can finish, hit j's and three's, penetrate and dish with the best of them... cant ask for more from a PG?


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

you know the most suprising thing is that while Nash has 2 MVP trophy, Jason Kidd has none and has atleast made it to the NBA Finals.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Wow, thanks for breaking the silence! It's the untold story everyone was afraid to say. I mean, this board has been terrified about speaking out about Nash...


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## Nashaholic (Mar 30, 2005)

Im just going to repeat what I've been saying all along:

The people who voted and made Nash the MVP are amongst the most respected and knowledgeable people in basketball. It means nothing that a few people on basketballboards cant appreciate the guy.

To make agruments like "he plays no defence" and he's supported by "rediculous statistics that prove nothing" actually "prove nothing" they aren't even arguments, there just an attack on Nash and his supporters and I'm sure you can do better than that. 

If you wanna put forward your candidate with an arguement-fine but dont just bash the MVP when you cant come to terms with his accomplishments.


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

With fame comes hate. I'm not surprised to see so much hate for Steve. But every superstar is overrated. Kobe is overrated on defense. LeBron is becalled "One of the best" when hes just now made the playoffs. You could make a case for any player being overrated.


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## Saint Baller (May 3, 2006)

TracywtFacy said:


> i dunno, I hate Nash but he is a real threat on offense... he can finish, hit j's and three's, penetrate and dish with the best of them... cant ask for more from a PG?


 Yeah you can ask 1 more thing

To play D


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

Saint Baller said:


> Yeah you can ask 1 more thing
> 
> To play D


lol

Coming from an irk fan.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Actually with all the hate he gets I'd say he's underrated.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

If Pheonix get to the Conference Finals this year, i should not be seeing any more of this BS of Nash being overrated.


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## the microwave (May 7, 2006)

MiamiHeat03 said:


> you know the most suprising thing is that while Nash has 2 MVP trophy, Jason Kidd has none and has *atleast made it to the NBA Finals.*


that makes Rick Fox is the best Canadian baller ever!








just nudging out Bill Wennington by a hair.


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## raptorsrule15 (Jul 4, 2003)

I'm not a big Nash fan but to be honest theres not really anything wrong with his D, it doesn't stand out but its okay!


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

1 Penny said:


> Its no big deal.... if you account his best seasons as a Maverick and the last 2 seasons as a Sun... He is easily the best point guard.


O.K., you wanna talk players' best seasons?

Nash's best years were his MVP seasons, and most claim that this years was more impressive than last years, so I'll take this years statistics and compare them with..lets say...Gary Payton's best season.

*
Gary Payton's '00 Season:
*
PPG 24.2
RPG 6.5
APG 8.9
SPG 1.87
BPG .22
FG% .448
FT% .735
3P% .340
MPG 41.8

*
Steve Nash's Season:
*
PPG 18.8
RPG	4.2
APG	10.5
SPG	.77
BPG	.15
FG%	.512
FT%	.921
3P%	.439
MPG	35.4

Offensively, GP is better than Nash. He averaged six more PPG (three possessions) while only two less assists (two possessions). He also managed to pull down more rebounds, get more steals, and more blocks.

Arguements can go both ways statistically for these two in these seasons, with a slight favor to Nash. These are the areas that he excels in and he only has a _slight_ advantage over Gary Payton? Statistically, Nash should be blowing these fellas out considering how much more affective Payton is if you actually _watch_ the games rather than just look at the boxscores. 

So, Nash has a _slight_ lead.

And this years MVP race wasn't even close?! 

If Nash plays like this and wins by a landslide, where the hell are Gary Payton's MVPs? Sure, you could argue that Nash played better, but really, by how much? And if it was such a landslide, Gary could've been a top candidate ATLEAST with those statistics, plus adding the intangibles which make these two players so different.

I still don't get it.


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

1 Penny said:


> MVP award is a joke until Kobe wins it.. then its back to respectable status... I get it.


No. 

The MVP award will never be back to respectable status. Its completely a joke. It could however have been won by a respectable candidate, which IMO could have been LeBron, Dirk, or Kobe. They all deserved the award more than Nash.

I'll never respect the MVP award, even if it went to Kobe.


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

TracywtFacy said:


> i dunno, I hate Nash but he is a real threat on offense... he can finish, hit j's and three's, penetrate and dish with the best of them... cant ask for more from a PG?


Kobe is a real threat on offense... he can finish, hit j's and three's, pass out of double teams with the best of them... cant ask for more from a SG?

LeBron is a real threat on offense... he can finish, hit j's and three's, penetrate and dish with the best of them... cant ask for more from a SF?

Dirk is a real threat on offense... he can finish, hit j's and three's, rebound with the best of them... cant ask for more from a PF?


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

Steve Nash is a good player, overrated? maybe. But you have to give a lot of credit to Mike D'Antonni. Steve Nash makes other players around him better and the system they play makes Steve Nash a better player. Steve Nash fits the system perfectly, but i'm sure other decent PGs (not all of them) could also be better with the system the Suns are playing (not saying they would do a better then Steve Nash, so don't go crazy on me).


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> Kobe is a real threat on offense... he can finish, hit j's and three's, pass out of double teams with the best of them... cant ask for more from a SG?
> 
> LeBron is a real threat on offense... he can finish, hit j's and three's, penetrate and dish with the best of them... cant ask for more from a SF?
> 
> Dirk is a real threat on offense... he can finish, hit j's and three's, rebound with the best of them... cant ask for more from a PF?


Where is the D? Defense is also part of the game. You cannot be a great player without playing on both sides of the court.
Is Kobe a great player? Yes
Is Dirk a great player? No, maybe in a few years because he is really improving on the defensive side.
Is Lebron a great player? No, not until he learns how to play defense, he's young so i'm sure he will improve. Or not!! power of will? i saw that somewhere, very true.


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## THE MATRIX 31 (Jul 22, 2005)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> O.K., you wanna talk players' best seasons?
> 
> Nashes best years were his MVP seasons, and most claim that this years was more impressive than last years, so I'll take this years statistics and compare them with..lets say...Gary Payton's best season.
> 
> ...


Also, Gary Payton is better offensively??? Maybe im a weirdo but if a guy has a 44 percent fg % and the other has a 52%, ima go with the better shooter no matter how much more they score. Have u ever seen Steve play?? The guy rarely misses and u can argue that he is one of the best shooters in the league. Not to mention best passer. Put those together and u got the most efficeint offensive machine there is. **** ball hogs, and **** players that shoot 35 times a game. Im glad to see Nash win these MVPs cuz he plays the game like its suppose to be played. 

Do not attack other posters.

- *Premier*


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

THE MATRIX 31 said:


> I dont get u kid. Shut the **** up and get a life. Dont be jealous cuz u cant win back to back mvps in the NBA.
> Also, Gary Payton is better offensively??? Maybe im a weirdo but if a guy has a 44 percent fg % and the other has a 52%, ima go with the better shooter no matter how much more they score. Have u ever seen Steve play?? The guy rarely misses and u can argue that he is one of the best shooters in the league. Not to mention best passer. Put those together and u got the most efficeint offensive machine there is. **** ball hogs, and **** players that shoot 35 times a game. Im glad to see Nash win these MVPs cuz he plays the game like its suppose to be played.
> 
> Do not attack other posters.
> ...


You call him a kid? and the next thing you do is use bad language and insult him?


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

t1no said:


> Where is the D? Defense is also part of the game.


You missed the point of my post.


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

THE MATRIX 31 said:


> *edited*


 :none: 



> Also, Gary Payton is better offensively??? Maybe im a weirdo but if a guy has a 44 percent fg % and the other has a 52%, ima go with the better shooter no matter how much more they score.


More shots = lower field goal percentage.

Education before verbilisation.



> Have u ever seen Steve play?? The guy rarely misses and u can argue that he is one of the best shooters in the league. Not to mention best passer. Put those together and u got the most efficeint offensive machine there is.


The "most efficeint offensive machine there is" has the lowest PPG for any MVPs, ever.
Maybe the machine should start shooting some more, and show you how field goal percentage drops with the amount of shots you take.



> **** ball hogs, and **** players that shoot 35 times a game.


...



> Im glad to see Nash win these MVPs cuz he plays the game like its suppose to be played.


  

Yeah, out running the opposing team and not putting forth any effort whatsoever on the defensive end of the game.

Yep, thats how its supposed to be played.



> *edited*


Who said anything about respect? I totally respect Steve Nash, I just think there were others more deserving of the MVP award.

Try to read my posts more carefully.


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

THE MATRIX 31 said:


> *edited*


and you can?


> Also, Gary Payton is better offensively??? Maybe im a weirdo but if a guy has a 44 percent fg % and the other has a 52%, ima go with the better shooter no matter how much more they score.


OK, so you take theo ratliff, ill take kobe and we'll see how far you get, theres a lot more to offense then fg%


> Have u ever seen Steve play?? The guy rarely misses


 (no he actually misses every second shot he takes) 


> and u can argue that he is one of the best shooters in the league.


 (i could also argue dj mbenga is one of the best shooters in the league, doesnt make it so) 


> Not to mention best passer. Put those together and u got the most efficeint offensive machine there is. **** ball hogs, and **** players that shoot 35 times a game. Im glad to see Nash win these MVPs cuz he plays the game like its suppose to be played.


dont get me wrong, i respect the way steve plays the game, and theres no doubting his skills, but its the over the top attention, the back to back mvp's that have just taken the entire meaning away from the award... and fan boys like you who are too blind to see anything beyond him being the greatest thing to ever step foot into your world, just make everything about him irk me the wrong way.

[/Rant]


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

^Exactly. Repped.


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## Saint Baller (May 3, 2006)

Dr.Seuss said:


> lol
> 
> Coming from an irk fan.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-k-AXCgzBA


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Nashaholic said:


> Im just going to repeat what I've been saying all along:
> 
> The people who voted and made Nash the MVP are amongst the most respected and knowledgeable people in basketball. It means nothing that a few people on basketballboards cant appreciate the guy.


"Respected" by who and "knowledgeable" about what? These voters vote base on team record. MVP has nothing to do with how good you are individually and everything to do with wins, above all else, and player ability second. The MVP award has been a joke since Wilt was snubbed after a 50/26/3 season in 1962 simply because Bill Russell was on a championship Celtics squad.


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## CbobbyB (Feb 16, 2006)

damn another Nash related thread..


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

I think Nash is one of those guys who genuinely knows how to bring out the best in his teammates. Think Magic, Stockton, Isiah, maybe Kidd as well. It's tough to rate how he stacks up against brilliant talents like Kobe and LeBron or against dominant bigs like Shaq and Duncan.

IMO Nash is (and has been for some time) better than his stats, but if MVP credentials are supposed to be legitimate measures of a player's greatness then he is definitely being overrated.


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## VeN (May 10, 2005)

TracywtFacy said:


> i dunno, I hate Nash but he is a real threat on offense... he can finish, hit j's and three's, penetrate and dish with the best of them... cant ask for more from a PG?


yes i can ask more, PLAY D!


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## Silent Lamb (Dec 18, 2005)

Yes, Nash is nowhere near the greatest PG of all time. The Big O, Magic, and Stockton will forever hold that honour. Did Nash deserve the MVP this year? As much as Dirk, Kobe, LeBron, and Chauncey? Easily. Whether or not Nash played better than those guys is highly debateable, because there is no universal definition of 'better'. Nash was THE most valuable guy on his team, a team completely rewritten from last years Conference Finalists. No JJ, Quentin Richardson, and no Amare Stoudemire. Dirk had the supporting cast of last year. LeBron had Larry Hughes. Chauncey has the Pistons. And Kobe overachieved. A whole roster overhaul, yet the Suns still remained one of the best teams in the West.

James Jones is having a career year.

Boris Diaw was a nobody before arriving in the Desert.

Tim Thomas was in off the street!

With a team full of new faces it's VERY hard to adjust. Even the greatest players would have difficulties playing great team ball with a WHOLE NEW TEAM of 'inferior' players. Just ask Kobe about the 2004-05 season.

Nash did a brilliant job of leading the Suns. And that is enough for him to recieve MVP votes. And the people who voted had the same mindset as me.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Nash is a good defender for the system he plays in. Pheonix's game plan is to bait you into shots you wouldn't ordinarily take in order to allow them to run off long rebounds. Doing this gets teams out of their offensive flow, thus causing players to make it a one man show. In other words using the argument that Nash isn't a great defender is pointless as it relates to Nash and his MVP awards because he isn't asked to shutdown any one due to the D' Antoni system. Pheonix basically bamboozles and hoodwinks opposing teams into thinking they are playing well offensively when in all actuality they are playing into the Suns defensive strategy. The strategy is to prove you can make a jump shot over and over again and when you miss we will take the long rebound and have a fastbreak. Pheonix's system is to outscore the opponent, not shut them down. When it relates to Suns players you can't compare them to other players fairly due to the fact that the D'Antoni system is so unique.


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## eaglewu (Feb 21, 2005)

MiamiHeat03 said:


> you know the most suprising thing is that while Nash has 2 MVP trophy, Jason Kidd has none and has atleast made it to the NBA Finals.


Nash surprised us in two year, while Kidd did a great job every year. If Kidd is not MVP the first several years, he will never be MVP. But this desn't means Nash is better than Kidd.


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

Is Nash the best PG in the game right now? Maybe... Jason Kidd is still AWFULLY good. Kidd still has had a better career, and he is a much better defender. Honestly, Nash isn't even the best PG in the NBA.

Should Nash have been the MVP last year? Probably. The turnaround in Phoenix was pretty impressive. Should he have won it this year? Absoluetely not.

I completely agree with this thread.


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## ToddMacCulloch11 (May 31, 2003)

Almost every player is overrated (some on a larger scale then others, but still).


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## Nashaholic (Mar 30, 2005)

EHL said:


> "Respected" by who and "knowledgeable" about what? These voters vote base on team record. MVP has nothing to do with how good you are individually and everything to do with wins, above all else, and player ability second. The MVP award has been a joke since Wilt was snubbed after a 50/26/3 season in 1962 simply because Bill Russell was on a championship Celtics squad.


You hit the nail on the head :biggrin: Nash had taken a group of largely unknown players (Diaw and Jones 2 ex) and made a winning squad. This is professional sports. Its about winning and Nash does that. Did you know also that Nash has been the pg for the highest scoring team the last FIVE years? The worse your team is the easier it is for you to have great stats. Steve is a winner to matter hw you look at it and thats what he cares about. Thats also why he's gotten the MVP twice.

P.S you dont respect the people who voted for the MVP? Please dont tell me the people of basketballboards have more knowledge and respect in the game of basketball because that would be a truly sinking into denial.


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

Saint Baller said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-k-AXCgzBA



I'm sold! Hes one of the best defenders I've ever seen. Why didn't he get DPOY? Ben robbed him just like Steve robbed him of MVP. Also, when you let a 6'7 Bowen who weighs 20 pounds less, man handle you. You should not be an MVP. Until, Dirk learns how to abuse those little guys hes always going to look like an idiot.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

EHL said:


> "Respected" by who and "knowledgeable" about what? These voters vote base on team record. MVP has nothing to do with how good you are individually and everything to do with wins, above all else, and player ability second. The MVP award has been a joke since Wilt was snubbed after a 50/26/3 season in 1962 simply because Bill Russell was on a championship Celtics squad.


It's not a joke... It's most VALUABLE... How valuable can you be if your team sucks?


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

S-Star said:


> It's not a joke... It's most VALUABLE... How valuable can you be if your team sucks?


how valuable can nash be when he is the focal point of the offense that led to a record of 54-28, 26 games above .500, when the team lacks big men, plagued by injuries, and struggling on defense?


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## PHXSPORTS4LIFE (May 8, 2003)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> O.K., you wanna talk players' best seasons?
> 
> Nashes best years were his MVP seasons, and most claim that this years was more impressive than last years, so I'll take this years statistics and compare them with..lets say...Gary Payton's best season.
> 
> ...



look at the shooting percentages. wow, a BIG advantage to stevie. he is a much more effective scorer. and when you look at total points produced i'll bet steve's far exceeds payton's 'cuz payton scores 6 more, but nash has two more assists (that's 4 points) BUT nash's team set the record for 3 pointers/game this year, so in all likelihood his assists had a few more 3 pointers in 'em, which means he outproduces payton point-wise, and given his fg, 3pt, and ft percentages, does so at a much more efficient clip. i'll also bet payton's turnovers exceed nash.

that's all devil's advocate. what i'm saying is the offensive spread is greater than you make it seem. that said, the defensive side of the ball, where i think nash is actually okay (NOT good, but not as terrible as people say), then payton is far away the better overall player.


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

Silent Lamb said:


> And that is enough for him to recieve MVP votes.


I don't really think the NBA's MVP should have won it because he did 'enough.'

MVPs should completely surpass expectations, and as you mentioned:



> And Kobe overachieved.


MVP?

He's not the only one who overacheived. Arguements could be made that Dirk had no all-stars whatsoever to help him, and that him and LeBron are carrying the loads for their teams by themselves.

Overacheivement > Enough


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

Nashaholic said:


> Its about winning and Nash does that.


No, its the Most Valuable *Player,* not best player on the best team. Thats the Finals MVP.

It shouldn't be about winning anymore. MVP should be about individual acheivement. They should create another award for players who make their team win.


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

S-Star said:


> How valuable can you be if your team sucks?


Very.


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

PHXSPORTS4LIFE said:


> look at the shooting percentages. wow, a BIG advantage to stevie. he is a much more effective scorer. and when you look at total points produced i'll bet steve's far exceeds payton's 'cuz payton scores 6 more, but nash has two more assists (that's 4 points) BUT nash's team set the record for 3 pointers/game this year, so in all likelihood his assists had a few more 3 pointers in 'em, which means he outproduces payton point-wise, and given his fg, 3pt, and ft percentages, does so at a much more efficient clip. i'll also bet payton's turnovers exceed nash.


As I mentioned before, statistics is where Nash excels.

I agree with your post however.


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## xray (Feb 21, 2005)

Instead of comparing Nash and Payton's numbers, imagine what Nash could do against Payton:

Not much. Gary would smother him, and Nash couldn't stop him. That's the biggest hole in Nash's game, and it's glaring.


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## Nashaholic (Mar 30, 2005)

bray1967 said:


> Instead of comparing Nash and Payton's numbers, imagine what Nash could do against Payton:
> 
> Not much. Gary would smother him, and Nash couldn't stop him. That's the biggest hole in Nash's game, and it's glaring.


Yah but Nash didnt win the MVP for defence just as Shaq didnt win for free throws. 

It really seems like the anti-Nash squad is beginning to grab at straws at this point, focusing on his defence that is.


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

Nashaholic said:


> Yah but Nash didnt win the MVP for defence just as Shaq didnt win for free throws.
> 
> It really seems like the anti-Nash squad is beginning to grab at straws at this point, focusing on his defence that is.


Don't compare defense with free throws.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Nashaholic said:


> Yah but Nash didnt win the MVP for defence just as Shaq didnt win for free throws.
> 
> It really seems like the anti-Nash squad is beginning to grab at straws at this point, focusing on his defence that is.


Defense is HALF of the game!!!


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## Real (Aug 3, 2005)

I don't care how many damn MVP's Steve Nash wins. 

I'm still taking Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, and John Stockton, who never won MVP's in their career, over Nash. They are all better overall players on the offensive and defensive ends.


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

Exactly, most knowledgeable people would pick Kidd or Payton or other vets.

Nash will probably go down as one of the best point guards ever, behind only Magic since he was the only other PG to repeat as MVP.

Thats just not right. Nash doesn't deserve that much credit. Thats whats wrong with the NBA today. People looking back will see that he won two MVPs and immediately consider him above Kidd/Payton/ect.

Thats just ****ed up.


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## Nashaholic (Mar 30, 2005)

t1no said:


> Don't compare defense with free throws.


Point taken, 

but regardless Nash won the MVP for his offensive skills and everyone here knows that. Whether or not he can play D isn't all that important when you admit that he's an incredible player at the offensive end who plays in a system thats based around offense.


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## Darknight1996 (Mar 6, 2006)

MVP should be taken in consideration but they are only regular season awards. What a player does in the playoffs should be used to evaluate them as well. i do not think you can call a player great if they never do well in the playoffs.


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## monty51524 (Nov 23, 2005)

Nash is a great PG but I personally think he is quite overrated. He may have had 2 MVPs in a row but I think that alone does not make him a top 10 PG. If he continues to play at this level for a couple more seasons, then that argument is valid. But right now, I think its premature. Payton should definitely be ranked higher than him.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

In the end, its whats Nash value to the Suns that makes him the MVP.

Payton, Stockton, Kidd might have better all round game than Nash, but Nash's offensive contribution, yes counting his seasons as a Maverick, has lead to his team becomming elite.

Another point guard could average 22 points 8 assists 5 rebounds and 2 steals... a lot of point guards today can achieve that stat line, Francis, Marbury, Parker, Paul, etc. But in the end, Nash's 19/10/4 and overall impact to either, team style and/or team mates.... makes the Suns an elite team... hence the MVP award.

No disputing, that Stockton is no doubt the epitome of a point guard. And Payton is one of the best defenders at that position ever... and Kidd is a heck of an all rounder for a pass first.. but back when those guys were putting up their best numbers... their were simply better players on better teams that got the MVP votes.

You cannot compare without taking into account player's opponents back then, the players playing, the status of the NBA, the make up of the team, the dominant teams, the bottom dwelling teams etc. etc.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

And Nash will definitely play like this for atleast 2 more seasons.. and the drop off wouldnt be that much, considering this guy relies on brains and fundamental shooting skills to contribute... he doesnt rely on sheer physical advantages over his opponents.

Think Mark Jackson, Rod Strickland, John Stockton etc. etc.etc Those types of point guards.


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## Saint Baller (May 3, 2006)

Dr.Seuss said:


> I'm sold! Hes one of the best defenders I've ever seen. Why didn't he get DPOY? Ben robbed him just like Steve robbed him of MVP. Also, when you let a 6'7 Bowen who weighs 20 pounds less, man handle you. You should not be an MVP. Until, Dirk learns how to abuse those little guys hes always going to look like an idiot.


You said it was Irk and not Dirk

I just showed you he plays D

and Bowen is one of the best defenders in the league he can hold down Nash, Kobe, Dirk, T-Mac, and all those big named offensive players


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

This:


CubanLaker said:


> Defense is HALF of the game!!!


This:


Net2 said:


> I don't care how many damn MVP's Steve Nash wins.
> 
> I'm still taking Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, and John Stockton, who never won MVP's in their career, over Nash. They are all better overall players on the offensive and defensive ends.


And This:


Shadyballa8D13 said:


> Exactly, most knowledgeable people would pick Kidd or Payton or other vets.
> 
> Nash will probably go down as one of the best point guards ever, behind only Magic since he was the only other PG to repeat as MVP.
> 
> ...


are basically my exact thoughts on the situation with nash... people will look back and see back to back mvp's and just because of that class him higher than some of the greatest players ever, and the mvp ill be there lone arguement (which will continue to **** me forever lol). and i dont think someone should be able to win a most valuable player should only contribute on one end of the court.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

What is going to piss me off, is in 20 or so years - people won't know the "Eh, it was close and he didn't deserve it" They'll know he won the MVP award back to back and consider him a legend


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## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Steve Nash is not overrated. He's not really underrated either. He's definately top 10 pg of all time, but I'm not sure about the 2x MVPs, especially considering Payton, Kidd, and Jerry West (a part time pg) have 0 MVPs.

The only thing overrated about Nash are his joke MVP awards. Other than that, he's great.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

1 Penny said:


> No disputing, that Stockton is no doubt the epitome of a point guard. And Payton is one of the best defenders at that position ever... and Kidd is a heck of an all rounder for a pass first.. but back when those guys were putting up their best numbers... their were simply better players on better teams that got the MVP votes.


Just as there were better players than Nash on better teams these past two seasons.

The voters prefer the fantasy that Nash "just makes everyone better" over the less-heroic truth that the system is ideal for all the players currently in it, of which Nash is one. Nash may be the ideal point guard for the system, and an excellent player, but he's not elevating everyone else's ability. He didn't do it at any other stop, notably Dallas, and he's not doing it in Phoenix.

But pretending he is makes a great story.


----------



## LW (Apr 15, 2006)

Minstrel said:


> Just as there were better players than Nash on better teams these past two seasons.
> 
> The voters prefer the fantasy that Nash "just makes everyone better" over the less-heroic truth that the system is ideal for all the players currently in it, of which Nash is one. Nash may be the ideal point guard for the system, and an excellent player, but he's not elevating everyone else's ability. He didn't do it at any other stop, notably Dallas, and he's not doing it in Phoenix.
> 
> But pretending he is makes a great story.


Just to continue this thought:

Nash is often touted as having caused 6 different players on his team to have career years. Well guess what? Kobe has 6 different teammates with career years as well. Who gets all the media praise?

Nash's MVPs are a product of the American love of the underdog. Note how everyone calls him "Little Stevie Nash." He's not even that little - 6'1" or 6'2" for a point guard is decent. He's just white and people love him for it. As much as this is not a race issue at the conscious level, it certainly is one at an unconscious level. He just screams "underdog" with every gesture, from the lick of his hands to the flip of his hair. Media bozos with 0 professional basketball playtime just get caught up in that whole "little underdog, little engine-that-could" image moreso than they care about the truth: the fact that Steve Nash was the fourth best choice in a loaded MVP race.


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

S-Star said:


> It's not a joke... It's most VALUABLE... How valuable can you be if your team sucks?


You can be plenty valuable, but no matter how good you are you can't turn garbage into anything more than shiny garbage. If you surrounded Magic Johnson or Michael Jordan with 15 year old JV ballers, would you say Magic or Jordan weren't "valuable" if they didn't win more than 5 games all season? No, of course not, you'd say that their teammates were god awful.


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

EHL said:


> You can be plenty valuable, but no matter how good you are you can't turn garbage into anything more than shiny garbage. If you surrounded Magic Johnson or Michael Jordan with 15 year old JV ballers, would you say Magic or Jordan weren't "valuable" if they didn't win more than 5 games all season? No, of course not, you'd say that their teammates were god awful.



I have no problem with that theory as long as it works both ways. If player A is surrounded by great players and the team has success, I don't want to hear people claiming player A lifts the play of his teammates either.


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Just as there were better players than Nash on better teams these past two seasons.
> 
> The voters prefer the fantasy that Nash "just makes everyone better" over the less-heroic truth that the system is ideal for all the players currently in it, of which Nash is one. Nash may be the ideal point guard for the system, and an excellent player, but he's not elevating everyone else's ability. He didn't do it at any other stop, notably Dallas, and he's not doing it in Phoenix.
> 
> But pretending he is makes a great story.


The Suns are a better team with Nash on the court. That's where the value comes from. Value is not based on if you make individual teammates better, because quite frankly...how do you prove that? But you can prove my first statement. Just look at the Suns numbers in the playoffs with and without Nash. Astounding difference.


----------



## 23isback (Mar 15, 2006)

This coming from a Kobe fanboy? Puhleeze~


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

KidCanada said:


> The Suns are a better team with Nash on the court. That's where the value comes from. Value is not based on if you make individual teammates better, because quite frankly...how do you prove that? But you can prove my first statement. Just look at the Suns numbers in the playoffs with and without Nash. Astounding difference.


Nash is a tremendous player. There's no doubt the Suns are better with him. The Lakers are much better with Kobe Bryant, the Cavaliers are much better with James. Look at the Rockets record with and without McGrady. All superstars have that sort of value.


----------



## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

while i don't 'support' these awards per se, and i doubt that i ever will, i do still have an opinion.

what's the criteria for mvp? i think above all else, it's perception. perception is created on the basis of myriad factors, some known and others not, but i think we're generally rather aware of it as it pertains to each respective star player. sometimes you could make the point that the media overhypes certain players which leads to their favorable perception globally, but i'd personally see that as being off base considering the size of the conspiracy implied. i don't think the media necessarily 'makes' stars out of anything but the opinions of the collective voice.

regardless, it's the perception (imo) that is loudest in the distribution of these awards- and this one in particular. is the perception off target? well, i don't know. that'd be quite a statement to make- it would presume some ultimate criteria being abused by... 'the collective voice'. i don't know if i buy that. what is the official criteria, anyway? i think that'd probably be the first thing to consider, and i don't know if there's an answer. so in that case, far be it for any of us to put our finger on who's overrated and underrated and in between, etc. but we know that already. and really, i don't wanna be any more obtuse than i've already been in the preceding paragraphs.

my opinion, though, is pretty straightforward (i think). if the award is indeed handed out on the basis of global perception, i think that would suggest the most deserving player to be the one considered "most impressive" this season. i don't even know what that means myself, but it's hard for me to argue nash's value to the phoenix suns this year. i mean, i could be wrong, but can you imagine how bad they would've been without him? this is a team that would've probably lost as many games as they won had he not played for them, and that borders on the _insane_ in my view. of course, we'll never know for sure, but i don't think it's that risky of an assumption to claim. i think the phoenix suns achieved success on the level of the _outrageous_ this season, at least over the first 82, and in my world i don't think anyone anywhere else could make the same claim. lebron's great, kobe's great, dirk's great, but what the suns did was (imo) from another universe.

now, if you wanted to argue that point, you could always say that the team's success should have been attributed to various other factors in phoenix, and you'd have the right (that's fanhood), but i don't think you'd necessarily _believe_ that. i think you'd just _want_ to believe that. i mean, i'd want to believe that too but i don't know if i could. in my head, i just can't picture the suns having duplicated this season without steve nash. and like i said above, i couldn't even picture them having come close. 

so i think that's why i don't have a problem with the award on steve's mantle. it was for me the most 'impressive' season that any individual enjoyed in 05-06. i'm not saying kobe's season should've been overlooked, nor lebron's nor dirk's nor zoran planicic's, it's just that _i think_ (two operative words there) steve's year was a cut above the rest. or most impressive. i don't know what that means so don't ask me, but i'm pretty sure i do feel that way. you'd probably feel that way too once you (attempted to) neutralize your bias. 

peace


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Just my comments on this thread in general and why it is really annoying.


When Nash won the MVP everyone said he was a product of the system and fed off Amare and JJ.

When JJ left and Amare got injured people said Nash would average about 3 assists less per game and the Suns would not make the playoffs without Amare. 

Amare has played one game this year, and the Suns are close to getting to the WCF. Nash wins his second MVP again and now people are crying racism and how embarrissing this is to the league.

Here's the annoying part for me: How the **** can the people whine about NASH winning it the first time because he was feeding off guuys like Amare and JJ, and then go ahead and whine when he wins it the 2nd time when those guys are gone? Especially when alot of posters picked the Suns to miss the playoffs. Where does the credit go to then? For the people who say the system, how come the system wasn't going to get them anywhere at the start of the season?

IF anything, Nash is underrated on this site.



Another annoying thing is when people say the Suns aren't built for the playoffs. What does that mean exactly? They are close to getting to the WCF for a 2nd season in a row. Do you have to win a championship to be a playoff team?


----------



## TP3 (Jan 26, 2003)

Shady is a HATER. Nash is a stud. Well deserved MVP.


----------



## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> IF anything, Nash is underrated on this site.


No Way in Hell


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Avalanche said:


> No Way in Hell


On this site....yah.


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> O.K., you wanna talk players' best seasons?
> 
> Nashes best years were his MVP seasons, and most claim that this years was more impressive than last years, so I'll take this years statistics and compare them with..lets say...Gary Payton's best season.
> 
> ...



Different years, different circumstances.

It doesn't make any sense to say Nash doesn't deserve the MVP, and then compare his stats this year to a player's stats from a different year. No relation whatsoever and a terrible argument.


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> *As I mentioned before, statistics is where Nash excels*.
> 
> I agree with your post however.


You make it sound like his teams don't win. Every team Steve Nash has started on has gotten into the playoffs. If they beat the clips it will also be the third time he is in the WCF in the West, a very tough task in itself. So NO, he isn't just a stats guy.


----------



## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> On this site....yah.


oh i read it right the first time, theres no way anyone could convince me steve nash is undrerrated on this site or he'd be the greatest player of all time


----------



## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> Just as there were better players than Nash on better teams these past two seasons.
> 
> The voters prefer the fantasy that Nash "just makes everyone better" over the less-heroic truth that the system is ideal for all the players currently in it, of which Nash is one. Nash may be the ideal point guard for the system, and an excellent player, but he's not elevating everyone else's ability. He didn't do it at any other stop, notably Dallas, and he's not doing it in Phoenix.
> 
> But pretending he is makes a great story.


Nicely worded. :greatjob:


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Avalanche said:


> oh i read it right the first time, theres no way anyone could convince me steve nash is undrerrated on this site or he'd be the greatest player of all time


Most people donwplay everything Nash does on this site so I really don't have a clue what you're talking about.


----------



## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> Most people donwplay everything Nash does on this site so I really don't have a clue what you're talking about.


I have to agree with this. Outside of Suns fans Nash isn't regarded all that highly on this forum, but most of that I attribute to jealously so I can deal with it. :biggrin:


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> Most people donwplay everything Nash does on this site so I really don't have a clue what you're talking about.


are you kidding me??
nash gets the credit for the rest of his team doing well...
when someone has a good game its 'because they play with nash'.
"the only reason tim thomas isnt out of the league is because nash makes him look good" blah blah blah..... i've heard it from this site all season long.
he's a great PG, i never doubted that.. but he's fast become overrated, and especially on here


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Avalanche said:


> are you kidding me??
> nash gets the credit for the rest of his team doing well...
> when someone has a good game its 'because they play with nash'.
> "the only reason tim thomas isnt out of the league is because nash makes him look good" blah blah blah..... i've heard it from this site all season long.
> he's a great PG, i never doubted that.. but he's fast become overrated, and especially on here


Nash should get some credit for the team doing well. Same goes for alot of players ond coaching staff on the team.

And when someone has a good game nobody says "that was because of Nash!" You're basically just making up BS from maybe 1 or 2 posts you have seen. No way does the board overrate Nash. And NO, I'm not kidding.


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> Nash should get some credit for the team doing well. Same goes for alot of players ond coaching staff on the team.
> 
> And when someone has a good game nobody says "that was because of Nash!" You're basically just making up BS from maybe 1 or 2 posts you have seen. No way does the board overrate Nash. And NO, I'm not kidding.


 :laugh: i gotta go dig up some threads, 1 or 2 posts??? please


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

KidCanada said:


> And when someone has a good game nobody says "that was because of Nash!"


I completely disagree with you there. Nash has been given near total credit for Boris Diaw's and Tim Thomas' production this year. Last year, I saw many people give Nash credit for Joe Johnson's and even Amare Stoudemire's breakout seasons.


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> I completely disagree with you there. Nash has been given near total credit for Boris Diaw's and Tim Thomas' production this year. Last year, I saw many people give Nash credit for Joe Johnson's and even Amare Stoudemire's breakout seasons.


thankyou!!!!


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

Nash does elevate his team mate's ability..

But you guys are picturing it as if Nash is literally making his team mates increase their skills when he is on court.. When that is not what most voters and Nash fans mean.

If you play basketball, you will know how frustrating it is to play with a player who makes the stupidest decisions on the court, eg, giving you the ball when you are in a spot where it is harder to shoot, or where defenders got you covered. Or taking that extra second before he passes to you... etc.

Nash "elevates" his team mates abilities, by giving them the ball onn the right time and on the right spot... any shooters in the league are good enough to nail an open shot, its all about getting it up without defenders on their faces... and Nash does that... he gives the ball to players on their comfortable spots... and the right time too.

Duncan, Shaq etc elevate their team mates too.. by giving them open looks due to double teaming etc....

A lot of players do that in the NBA, Jason Kidd is one.. so I'm not just saying its Nash and no one else..

Nash is also responsible for the successful implementation of the uptempo game by D'Antoni... you guys are saying its the system?... whats the freaking the system?.. Run and Gun, uptempo every time, shoot without hesitation... thats the system. Guess what a few teams copied that system and they are no way near as succesful as the Suns.. Again, the common denominator here is Nash as the ball handler...

Its not coincidence Mavs were leading the NBA's offense when Nash was at the helm.. and its no coincidence Suns are currently the NBA's best offense either.

Again, Nash is hated because people dont understand why he is good. They see him asa fantastic player, but see players like LeBron, Kobe etc as more capable... more unstoppable scorers etc.. 

You can score all you want, but basketball is a team sport and if a player helps his team mates score points that counts too....


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

1 Penny said:


> Nash does elevate his team mate's ability..
> 
> But you guys are picturing it as if Nash is literally making his team mates increase their skills when he is on court.. When that is not what most voters and Nash fans mean.
> 
> ...


i know exactly the context its being used in, its just overly exaggerated where every player on the team has to credit their play to nash


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> I completely disagree with you there. Nash has been given near total credit for Boris Diaw's and Tim Thomas' production this year. Last year, I saw many people give Nash credit for Joe Johnson's and even Amare Stoudemire's breakout seasons.


Very true.


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## ravor44 (Feb 26, 2005)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> ...And everyone knows it.
> 
> Its a big deal that he made ESPN's top 10 PGs ever!? A two time MVP should EASILY be top 10 in his position. Something like that shouldn't be a surprise and thats whats so pathetic about Nash.
> 
> ...


I agree...NASH IS HORRIBLY OVERRATED!


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## dwade3 (Sep 12, 2005)

Avalanche said:


> I've argued this point in way too many threads to go through this again..
> but i completely agree, i personally think nash winning 2 mvp's has made a mockery of the award, and i really do not think he is as good as he is made out to be (especially on here)
> i respect the guys talents, top 15 pg of all time no doubt.
> but overrated none the less


im with u brother, Nash over shaq, shouldnt of happened, nash over lebron OR nowitzki, shouldnt of happened


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> I completely disagree with you there. Nash has been given near total credit for Boris Diaw's and Tim Thomas' production this year. Last year, I saw many people give Nash credit for Joe Johnson's and even Amare Stoudemire's breakout seasons.


Who on this site says that? Tell me the posters name who says Boris Diaw has had the year he has had because of Steve Nash. I really doubt anyone has said that. Of course it helps to play with a guy like Nash, but Diaw is an immensely talented player who has finally been given the chance to play.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> ...And everyone knows it.
> 
> Its a big deal that he made ESPN's top 10 PGs ever!? A two time MVP should EASILY be top 10 in his position. Something like that shouldn't be a surprise and thats whats so pathetic about Nash.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Nash is only regarded as the best point guard because Jason Kidd has been plagued by injuries.....The Kidd vs. Nash poll is a joke, Kidd taught Nash.

Nash is the NBA's Payton Manning?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

KidCanada said:


> Who on this site says that? Tell me the posters name who says Boris Diaw has had the year he has had because of Steve Nash. I really doubt anyone has said that.


There were many comments through the season about how Diaw was a scrub until this year and then Nash made him look great. What you ignore is all the people who buy into the "Nash makes everyone better and therefore deserves to be MVP." While I didn't write down the names of the posters who said this (the only one I can recall offhand is SPMJ), there's been a sizeable contingent of people who say and believe it. You just see all the people who don't think Nash deserves the MVP, because that's what you're more sensitive to...Nash "not getting respect."


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> There were many comments through the season about how Diaw was a scrub until this year and then Nash made him look great. What you ignore is all the people who buy into the "Nash makes everyone better and therefore deserves to be MVP." While I didn't write down the names of the posters who said this (the only one I can recall offhand is SPMJ), there's been a sizeable contingent of people who say and believe it. You just see all the people who don't think Nash deserves the MVP, because that's what you're more sensitive to...Nash "not getting respect."


It's the other way around, actually.


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

dwade3 said:


> im with u brother, Nash over shaq, shouldnt of happened, nash over lebron OR nowitzki, shouldnt of happened


Australians hate Nash. Australians hate peace.


----------



## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

Mavs Maniac said:


> What is going to piss me off, is in 20 or so years - people won't know the "Eh, it was close and he didn't deserve it" They'll know he won the MVP award back to back and consider him a legend


I JUST said that.



23isback said:


> This coming from a Kobe fanboy? Puhleeze~


:none:



KidCanada said:


> Just my comments on this thread in general and why it is really annoying.
> 
> 
> When Nash won the MVP everyone said he was a product of the system and fed off Amare and JJ.
> ...


Bring out the posts that claimed the Suns would miss the playoffs, or said that Nash would average three less assists per game without JJ and Amare.

No one in their right mind claimed the Suns would miss the playoffs, especially looking at how week the Pacific Division looked on paper.




> IF anything, Nash is underrated on this site.


No.



> Another annoying thing is when people say the Suns aren't built for the playoffs. What does that mean exactly? They are close to getting to the WCF for a 2nd season in a row. Do you have to win a championship to be a playoff team?


In the regular season, when at full power, the Suns play much better than a full powered Spurs team or a loaded Dallas team, but in the playoffs they barely inched out Dallas last season and were embarrassed my San Antonio.

Everyone knows how the WCF was handed to Phoenix this year. Don't worry though, they're changing the seeding system next year. 



TP3 said:


> Shady is a HATER. Nash is a stud. Well deserved MVP.


More than half the posters in this thread agreed with me.

I guess this site is full of haters?



KidCanada said:


> Different years, different circumstances.


Two players, who both play PG, being compared in their prime, best years.

Different years, same circumstances.



> It doesn't make any sense to say Nash doesn't deserve the MVP, and then compare his stats this year to a player's stats from a different year. No relation whatsoever and a terrible argument.


I'll bet you didn't even read my post.

I'm comparing a multiple MVP winner to a player who was never even considered for MVP. Both great PGs and being compared in their best years. How does that have no relation?

If Nash had those numbers in his best years and won, why can't Payton have argueably better numbers and not win in that year?



KidCanada said:


> You make it sound like his teams don't win. Every team Steve Nash has started on has gotten into the playoffs. If they beat the clips it will also be the third time he is in the WCF in the West, a very tough task in itself. So NO, he isn't just a stats guy.


I never said he was JUST a stats guy. I said stats are where he excels.

Seriously, read my posts.



KidCanada said:


> Most people donwplay everything Nash does on this site so I really don't have a clue what you're talking about.


:laugh:


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

I don't think Steve Nash is overrated _per se_. It's the whole MVP thing.

Steve Nash has been the best PG in the NBA for the last couple of years. Last year MVP was doubtfull, because Shaq made the Heat serious contenders, but it was a down year for Shaq, stats-wise, so i can agree not giving the MVP to a guy that had his worst statistical year (or close to it) in the league. But i can't agree with the second MVP.

And i think that's what's been rilling up peeps. How can a guy who is NOT one of the 6-7 best PG in history have more MVPs than anyone in his position not named Magic?

Heck, let's take out the SECOND MVP form the equation. Let's say Nash has one MVP and an All-NBA 1st team selection this year. Would you find him overrated?

I sure wouldn't. He is the best Pg in the league.


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> And i think that's what's been rilling up peeps. How can a guy who is NOT one of the 6-7 best PG in history have more MVPs than anyone in his position not named Magic?


To solely answer your question, different eras, of course.

i know. rhetorical, rhetorical, rhetorical.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Premier said:


> To solely answer your question, different eras, of course.


Just to clarify: what do you mean by different "eras"? I was think more around the likes of "different competition" for the award. Maybe it's the same thing.


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> I JUST said that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not even worth repsonding too. Basically everything you said I disagree with.


----------



## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

Giving up, eh?


----------



## TwiBlueG35 (Jan 24, 2006)

VC_15 said:


> If Pheonix get to the Conference Finals this year, i should not be seeing any more of this BS of Nash being overrated.


Nash needs to get the NBA champion to avoid being called "overrated".


----------



## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

Regarding Nash's Defense



> But it was Mike Dunleavy's decision to start Corey Maggette instead of Quentin Ross that set the tone for L.A. Maggette's presence in the lineup meant that Shawn Marion couldn't guard Cassell, as he did in Game 3. Maggette's size and strength forced Phoenix to commit a bigger defender to him, meaning Cassell was free to work against Steve Nash. Without the athletic, long-armed Marion hounding him, Cassell was able to be his usual aggressive self. And as an added bonus, Maggette dominated the glass with 15 rebounds to help the Clippers enjoy a resounding 55-37 advantage on the boards.


now that is how defense impacts a game.


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> Australians hate peace.


excuse me????

looks like your arguement is getting a little thin sunshine.

nash still = overrated


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

I'll answer if you wish. 



Shadyballa8D13 said:


> I JUST said that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Search is disabled, but no one picked the Suns to finish 2nd in the West. You can look back and read peoples posts after Amare went down. I remember big name name posters like Minstrel picking them to finish 10th, while Sir Patchwork picked them to finish 11th. And this was assuming Amare came back after four months. He played one game.



Shadyballa8D13 said:


> No one in their right mind claimed the Suns would miss the playoffs, especially looking at how week the Pacific Division looked on paper.


See post above. Alot of people picked Golden State and Sactown to finish above them. And the pacific divison did not look weak on paper.










Shadyballa8D13 said:


> In the regular season, when at full power, the Suns play much better than a full powered Spurs team or a loaded Dallas team, but in the playoffs they barely inched out Dallas last season and were embarrassed my San Antonio.


This is why I don't even want to take you seriously. They barely inched out Dallas!? They beat them in 6. And Dallas was a championship caliber team.....I don't understand what you are even trying to get at. And they were embarressed by the Spurs? They lost to the championship game in5 games without their third best player(JJ)for the majority of the series. Once again.....no idea what you're even getting at.



Shadyballa8D13 said:


> Everyone knows how the WCF was handed to Phoenix this year. Don't worry though, they're changing the seeding system next year.


They do have an easier road, but the Clippers are a great team. Considering they are missing Kurt Thomas and Amare and no one picked them to beat the Clips(check the series thread if you want proof), I thin being tied 2-2 going home is quite an accomplishment.





Shadyballa8D13 said:


> More than half the posters in this thread agreed with me.
> 
> I guess this site is full of haters?


I can repsect some posters because they have logical arguments. Nothing you say makes any sense.





Shadyballa8D13 said:


> Two players, who both play PG, being compared in their prime, best years.
> 
> Different years, same circumstances.


Different years, different circumstances. You have to look at who Nash was competing against when he won his MVP, and who Gary was competing against when he didn't win MVP. Comparing the two of them in their prime is irrevelant to the argument Nash didn't deserve his MVP's. Once again, your argument is flat out retarted.





Shadyballa8D13 said:


> I'm comparing a multiple MVP winner to a player who was never even considered for MVP. Both great PGs and being compared in their best years. How does that have no relation?
> 
> If Nash had those numbers in his best years and won, why can't Payton have argueably better numbers and not win in that year?


Because, you have to look at who won and why they won over Payton that year. It's pretty basic logic.





Shadyballa8D13 said:


> I never said he was JUST a stats guy. I said stats are where he excels.
> 
> Seriously, read my posts.


As supposed to what? Playoff success? Making the playoffs every year as a starter and possibly reaching the WCF for a third time isn't playoff success? Remeber, only 1 team can win a championship. Getting deep should also be considered before you knock NASH and the Suns for not being a "playoff team"


I really hope you don't rebuttle with what you said in your previous posts. It really is too much BS and illogical crap to handle....seriously.


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Avalanche said:


> excuse me????
> 
> looks like your arguement is getting a little thin sunshine.
> 
> nash still = overrated


I was joking. And keep saying Nash is overrated in all your posts. Maybe then it will be right!


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

fruitcake said:


> Regarding Nash's Defense
> 
> 
> 
> now that is how defense impacts a game.


Nash played a very sound game. Cassell only got past him once and rarely backed him down. He was making jumpers with a hand in his face. He was just on fire....it had nothing to do with Nash, at all. You should have watched the game.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

KidCanada said:


> Minstrel picking them to finish 10th


Entirely true. And I was far from alone in that. No one gave the Suns much chance after losing both Joe Johnson and Amare Stoudemire.

Of course, the flip side of that is that many people were giving Nash credit for the surprises that emerged on the team, like Boris Diaw, James Jones (early in the season) and Tim Thomas (late in the season).

So I still disagree that Nash is given little credit on this site. And most people who don't believe Nash was deserving of either MVP award, like me, still believe Nash to be a tremendous player.


----------



## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> Of course, the flip side of that is that many people were giving Nash credit for the surprises that emerged on the team, like Boris Diaw, James Jones (early in the season) and Tim Thomas (late in the season).
> 
> So I still disagree that Nash is given little credit on this site. And most people who don't believe Nash was deserving of either MVP award, like me, still believe Nash to be a tremendous player.


This is exactly how i feel on the issue, i dont think anyone here... even the people who hate on him could argue that nash isnt a great player, to try and argue that would just be foolish.
but the fact people give him credit for things he really has little control of, and the fact he has won back to back mvp's will mean in my personal opinion he will always be overrated during his prime.


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

I've read way too many posters from the summer say watch Nash without Amare. His assists numbers will drop back down to around 8 per game an the team will fall to pieces. He still puts up the big stats, the team still does exceptionally well. Yet....he is overrated on this site? I don't see it. Maybe 20% of the posters think his MVP is justified. Hell, some of them even put Carmelo Anthony in a higher tier in this league then Nash! The thread title should be changed to underrated....it would fit much better.


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Avalanche said:


> This is exactly how i feel on the issue, i dont think anyone here... even the people who hate on him could argue that nash isnt a great player, to try and argue that would just be foolish.
> but the fact people give him credit for things he really has little control of, and the fact he has won back to back mvp's will mean in my personal opinion he will always be overrated during his prime.


In this writers eyes. Not in the boards eyes. Anyways, it's childish to argue. Nash and the Suns keep proving people wrong. As long as they do that he and the Suns should gain more respect.


----------



## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

Nash has been unMVP like the past 2 games. game 5 will be his re-awakening though.


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

ahah yah. This isn't the best time to defend him. Still putting up the dimes though.


----------



## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> In this writers eyes. Not in the boards eyes. Anyways, it's childish to argue. Nash and the Suns keep proving people wrong. As long as they do that he and the Suns should gain more respect.


its called personal opinion... hence the point of the entire thread asking for people's view on the issue.
nash... to me is overrated, there is nothing u can argue to prove to me otherwise.
i follow the nba religiously, and nash is one of the best players i've seen run the point guard spot since i've been watching it.
but i completely agree with the thread title.
great, but overrated


----------



## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

Nash is doubled-team everytime they do the pick-n-roll. Which they do everytime. So, its not surprising that he hasn't been scoring much.


----------



## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> I'll answer if you wish.
> 
> Search is disabled, but no one picked the Suns to finish 2nd in the West. You can look back and read peoples posts after Amare went down. I remember big name name posters like Minstrel picking them to finish 10th, while Sir Patchwork picked them to finish 11th. And this was assuming Amare came back after four months. He played one game.
> 
> See post above. Alot of people picked Golden State and Sactown to finish above them. And the pacific divison did not look weak on paper.


You're still only claiming that this is what people said. Bring out the posts that prove that posters said this.

I don't care if search is disabled.



> This is why I don't even want to take you seriously. They barely inched out Dallas!? They beat them in 6. And Dallas was a championship caliber team.....I don't understand what you are even trying to get at. And they were embarressed by the Spurs? They lost to the championship game in5 games without their third best player(JJ)for the majority of the series. Once again.....no idea what you're even getting at.


So, you're saying a six game series isn't close, but a five game series is?

And when I say embarrassed, I mean embarrassed. Suns were lucky to pull off a game in that series.



> They do have an easier road, but the Clippers are a great team. Considering they are missing Kurt Thomas and Amare and no one picked them to beat the Clips(check the series thread if you want proof), I thin being tied 2-2 going home is quite an accomplishment.


NOW is when people are saying that the road is paved for the Clips and Phoenix. BEFORE the whole problem with seeding was that Phoenix has an easy road to WCF. Not Denver, not LA,* Phoenix.*



> Different years, different circumstances. You have to look at who Nash was competing against when he won his MVP, and who Gary was competing against when he didn't win MVP. Comparing the two of them in their prime is irrevelant to the argument Nash didn't deserve his MVP's. Once again, your argument is flat out retarted.
> 
> Because, you have to look at who won and why they won over Payton that year. It's pretty basic logic.


You don't seem to understand the point I'm getting at.

With Payton putting up around the same statistics as Nash, and having a better actual game impact than him, its easy to say that he should've been MVP of that season. Now, there could've been a better talent, so I'm not saying that Payton should've won that year, but the fact that he wasn't even considered is rediculous.

Put Nash in that same situation, and the media would've chosen him for MVP.



> As supposed to what? Playoff success? Making the playoffs every year as a starter and possibly reaching the WCF for a third time isn't playoff success? Remeber, only 1 team can win a championship. Getting deep should also be considered before you knock NASH and the Suns for not being a "playoff team"


As opposed to winning rings.

Making the playoffs every year means nothing when you have an amazing supporting cast. Nash has been surrounded by some of the greatest talent his entire career. 

He's never won a single championship.


----------



## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

Dr.Seuss said:


> Nash is doubled-team everytime they do the pick-n-roll. Which they do everytime. So, its not surprising that he hasn't been scoring much.


The clippers seem to do a really good job defensively on nash actually.


----------



## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Shadyballa8D13 again.


(previous post) :cheers:


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> You're still only claiming that this is what people said. Bring out the posts that prove that posters said this.
> 
> I don't care if search is disabled.


You can search it if you care so much. I've read the posts, *I know * what people have said.





Shadyballa8D13 said:


> So, you're saying a six game series isn't close, but a five game series is?
> 
> And when I say embarrassed, I mean embarrassed. Suns were lucky to pull off a game in that series.


That just isn't true. The Suns were neck and neck with the Spurs in every game going into the middle of the 4th Q except for one game. This was without JJ like I pointed out before as well. I doubt you even watched the games. Australia doesn't have easy access to NBA games last time I checked.





Shadyballa8D13 said:


> NOW is when people are saying that the road is paved for the Clips and Phoenix. BEFORE the whole problem with seeding was that Phoenix has an easy road to WCF. Not Denver, not LA,* Phoenix.*


What?





Shadyballa8D13 said:


> You don't seem to understand the point I'm getting at.
> 
> With Payton putting up around the same statistics as Nash, and having a better actual game impact than him, its easy to say that he should've been MVP of that season. Now, there could've been a better talent, so I'm not saying that Payton should've won that year, but the fact that he wasn't even considered is rediculous.
> 
> Put Nash in that same situation, and the media would've chosen him for MVP.


I understand what you saying, it just doesn't mean anything. 

And BS about Nash winning an MVP over Payton or anyone else when the glove was in his prime. Those years were stacked with talent and I doubt Nash would have come close. Once again, you have to look at the years Nash won and who he won it over. You just sound bitter and clueless when you say dumb statements like that.




Shadyballa8D13 said:


> As opposed to winning rings.
> 
> Making the playoffs every year means nothing when you have an amazing supporting cast. Nash has been surrounded by some of the greatest talent his entire career.
> 
> He's never won a single championship.


I didn't know his career is over yet. Nash is only 32, he still has alot of time. And please stop using hyperboles to try and prove your point. Nash has had very solid casts over his years, so have alot of players who haven't won rings. The fact that you would consider this year's cast to be some of the greatest talent shows how little you know.


Im done arguing with you. You don't have a clue what your talking about and your hate for Nash is just so blatently obvious...

_I hate Nash and I'm going to make up BS to belittle him as much as possible!_ 

Boring.


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Avalanche said:


> (previous post) :cheers:


Why don't you two just get a room?


----------



## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> Why don't you two just get a room?


why because we both agree that your view and knowlege of the nba and nash in particular is flawed and blurry, at best?
and we have plenty of access to the nba... your information of this came from where exactly?
try to keep it on topic sunshine


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Avalanche said:


> why because we both agree that your view and knowlege of the nba and nash in particular is flawed and blurry, at best?
> and we have plenty of access to the nba... your knowlege of this came from where exactly?
> try to keep it on topic sunshine


Several Australian posters on this site I have talked to. 

And you can think Nash is overrated, but if you agree with Shabaydlala's arguments then you guys are probably just good "mates".


----------



## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> Several Australian posters on this site I have talked to.
> 
> And you can think Nash is overrated, but if you agree with Shabaydlala's arguments then you guys are probably just good "mates".


never met the dude in my life
there are more ways to get access to the nba than just pay tv....
my view on nash isnt just a blatent stab in the dark, i've watched the guy play for years, and i enjoy the way he plays.
its not the point of the thread, and wasnt the original question.
i personally think, that the media, and some posters on this board overrate nash well beyond his actual abilities...


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

I don't know why you would try and rep the guy for his last post then. If you read it you would have noticed it was alot of BS....


----------



## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> I don't know why you would try and rep the guy for his last post then. If you read it you would have noticed it was alot of BS....


no actually i noticed that everything he said was completely true, hence repping him


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

lol


----------



## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

Listen... Avalanche unless you literally watch a majority of Suns games this season you really don't have a place to say whether or not Nash is overrated. Sample size is everything, and unless you don't have a life you probably haven't seen more than 10 Suns games all season, which really negates your ability to be taken seriously when talking about Nash. Secondly even when you do watch their games you probably begin with an already strong bias against Nash (conciously and subconciously) thus giving you an altered perspective on how Nash really plays (it is shown in psycology that people can view the same event and come up with very different conclusions.. especially when there is a bias towards the variable before the event takes place). Finally you don't even have close to enough knowledge about the game of basketball (even if you've played a lot) to understand how exactly players can impact a game. I would argue that an assist has been grossly UNDERRATED for quite a bit of the NBA's history and that they've now fixed the problem, instead of created a new one like some of you claim. 

Anyways I think I've said my peace. I don't really expect you to change your opinion based on what I've said, but I do wish you at least take it into consideration that perhaps you're not necessarily correct. Trust me you wouldn't be the first person to firmly believe you are 100% right when in fact you are really 100% wrong. 

But hey I could be wrong, that's true as well. However I have not only a majority of the sports writers but the NBA GM's backing me up. What do you have? BBB.net posters? LMAO! How did this not make the front page of USA Today, "Avalanche as well as some other posters on BBB.net say Nash isn't the MVP". :biggrin:


----------



## Nashaholic (Mar 30, 2005)

tempe85 said:


> Listen... Avalanche unless you literally watch a majority of Suns games this season you really don't have a place to say whether or not Nash is overrated. Sample size is everything, and unless you don't have a life you probably haven't seen more than 10 Suns games all season, which really negates your ability to be taken seriously when talking about Nash. Secondly even when you do watch their games you probably begin with an already strong bias against Nash (conciously and subconciously) thus giving you an altered perspective on how Nash really plays (it is shown in psycology that people can view the same event and come up with very different conclusions.. especially when there is a bias towards the variable before the event takes place). Finally you don't even have close to enough knowledge about the game of basketball (even if you've played a lot) to understand how exactly players can impact a game. I would argue that an assist has been grossly UNDERRATED for quite a bit of the NBA's history and that they've now fixed the problem, instead of created a new one like some of you claim.
> 
> Anyways I think I've said my peace. I don't really expect you to change your opinion based on what I've said, but I do wish you at least take it into consideration that perhaps you're not necessarily correct. Trust me you wouldn't be the first person to firmly believe you are 100% right when in fact you are really 100% wrong.
> 
> But hey I could be wrong, that's true as well. However I have not only a majority of the sports writers but the NBA GM's backing me up. What do you have? BBB.net posters? LMAO! How did this not make the front page of USA Today, "Avalanche as well as some other posters on BBB.net say Nash isn't the MVP". :biggrin:


I was about to post before I read this and I dont think theres much else to say except that
the knowledge from the nba has spoken and Avalanche (amongst others) wasn't amongst them.


----------



## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

tempe85 said:


> Listen... Avalanche unless you literally watch a majority of Suns games this season you really don't have a place to say whether or not Nash is overrated. Sample size is everything, and unless you don't have a life you probably haven't seen more than 10 Suns games all season, which really negates your ability to be taken seriously when talking about Nash. Secondly even when you do watch their games you probably begin with an already strong bias against Nash (conciously and subconciously) thus giving you an altered perspective on how Nash really plays (it is shown in psycology that people can view the same event and come up with very different conclusions.. especially when there is a bias towards the variable before the event takes place). *Finally you don't even have close to enough knowledge about the game of basketball* (even if you've played a lot) to understand how exactly players can impact a game. I would argue that an assist has been grossly UNDERRATED for quite a bit of the NBA's history and that they've now fixed the problem, instead of created a new one like some of you claim.
> 
> Anyways I think I've said my peace. I don't really expect you to change your opinion based on what I've said, but I do wish you at least take it into consideration that perhaps you're not necessarily correct. Trust me you wouldn't be the first person to firmly believe you are 100% right when in fact you are really 100% wrong.
> 
> But hey I could be wrong, that's true as well. However I have not only a majority of the sports writers but the NBA GM's backing me up. What do you have? BBB.net posters? LMAO! How did this not make the front page of USA Today, "Avalanche as well as some other posters on BBB.net say Nash isn't the MVP". :biggrin:


i have no bias against nash what so ever, i've said in nearly every post that i think he is an incredible player, but for him to recieve back to back mvp awards grossly overrates his actual ability.

as for the statement i highlighted in your post thats just ignorant, you have no idea how long or how often i follow the game of basketball.
i'm an australian rep, nationals level rep, and previously ncaa offered PG ..... i know exactly the value of assists

and i dont believe i'm 100% right, but in my personal opinion i agree with the original post, i dont know why all the nash fan boys get offended and just blatently dis-regard whats said by people who dont agree with their opinion... its the entire point of debating and pretty much the point of this board in general.


----------



## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> You can search it if you care so much. I've read the posts, *I know * what people have said.


Ah, just as *I know* who the real MVP is, right?



> That just isn't true. The Suns were neck and neck with the Spurs in every game going into the middle of the 4th Q except for one game. This was without JJ like I pointed out before as well. I doubt you even watched the games. Australia doesn't have easy access to NBA games last time I checked.


WTF? I live in Dallas, not Australia.

And the fact of the matter is the Suns won one game.

*Game 1:* SAS 121, PHO 114
*Game 2:* SAS 111, PHO 108
*Game 3:* SAS 102, PHO 92
*Game 4:* PHO 111, SAS 106
*Game 5:* SAS 101, PHO 95 

This series wasn't close, regardless if JJ was there or not.



> What?


Learn to read.



> And BS about Nash winning an MVP over Payton or anyone else when the glove was in his prime. Those years were stacked with talent and I doubt Nash would have come close. Once again, you have to look at the years Nash won and who he won it over.


Just like these years are stacked with talent and Nash shouldn't have even come close, much less win in a landslide.



> You just sound bitter and clueless when you say dumb statements like that.


You sound idiotic and retarded when you claim Nash deserves MVP.



> I didn't know his career is over yet. Nash is only 32, he still has alot of time. And please stop using hyperboles to try and prove your point. Nash has had very solid casts over his years, so have alot of players who haven't won rings. The fact that you would consider this year's cast to be some of the greatest talent shows how little you know.


Oh please. Nash's time is over.

I can guarantee that he won't win a championship, and you can quote me on that.

And yes, he has had some great talents next to him in his career. Too bad he couldn't win anything...


----------



## 23isback (Mar 15, 2006)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> *Too bad he couldn't win anything...*


Not trying to start anything, but when you win the MVP twice, you should be pretty damn proud of yourself. :cheers:


----------



## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> WTF? I live in Dallas, not Australia.


:rotf: well that turned out to be a great arguement lol


----------



## cadarn (Feb 1, 2006)

tempe85 said:


> Listen... Avalanche unless you literally watch a majority of Suns games this season you really don't have a place to say whether or not Nash is overrated. Sample size is everything, and unless you don't have a life you probably haven't seen more than 10 Suns games all season, which really negates your ability to be taken seriously when talking about Nash.


You realize half the voters had most certainly not seen more than ten suns game all season. Stupid point to use.


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> Ah, just as *I know* who the real MVP is, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You don't have a clue what your talking about and it shows.


----------



## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

cadarn said:


> You realize half the voters had most certainly not seen more than ten suns game all season. Stupid point to use.



Exactly why they will turn to statistics to smooth things over. Nash's defensive stats of PER against is among the best in the league for a PG as hard as it may be for you to believe.

And I'm in no way saying that Nash indeed is a top PG defender, because he's not. However I think he's done a competent enough job for it to be a lot less of a consideration.


----------



## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

Avalanche said:


> i have no bias against nash what so ever, i've said in nearly every post that i think he is an incredible player, but for him to recieve back to back mvp awards grossly overrates his actual ability.
> 
> as for the statement i highlighted in your post thats just ignorant, you have no idea how long or how often i follow the game of basketball.
> i'm an australian rep, nationals level rep, and previously ncaa offered PG ..... i know exactly the value of assists
> ...


Yep and you're 19 and you probably don't have the first clue about how much goes into an NBA level basketball game. I can tell you that many statistics support my case that Nash indeed isn't quite the defensive liability you claim him to be... however that'd be talking like a brickwall.. because just like the brickwall you simply don't understand. 

By the way.. how many Sun games HAVE you seen this season? Just wondering..


----------



## Infinet (Mar 14, 2005)

Nash deserves MVP. But he should give up one of his MVP's to Jason Kidd for getting robbed in 2002 :biggrin:


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

tempe85 said:


> Yep and you're 19 and you probably don't have the first clue about how much goes into an NBA level basketball game. I can tell you that many statistics support my case that Nash indeed isn't quite the defensive liability you claim him to be... however that'd be talking like a brickwall.. because just like the brickwall you simply don't understand.
> 
> By the way.. how many Sun games HAVE you seen this season? Just wondering..


all the playoffs games so far, and 18-20 ish during the season.... i have seen nash play for years though, as i said i have nothing against him and think he's an awesome player, just being a back to back mvp makes him, to me overrated.
u say im like talking to a brick wall..... whys that, just because i dont agree with your oppinion on nash? do u expect everyone to just agree with what u think, because what u think has to be right?
its a difference of opinion, i could just as easily say that u are like talking to a brick wall because u dont see my side, but i can appreciate yours (and other nash supporters) view on this topic.
and unless u've played in an nba game yourself, then i am just as (if not more so with my ball experience) qualified to talk about how much goes into a high level basketball game


----------



## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

man, all someone needs to do is play D on Nash and he becomes a regular ole Pg ......


----------



## BootyKing (Apr 7, 2005)

ElMarroAfamado said:


> man, all someone needs to do is play D on Nash and he becomes a regular ole Pg ......


:| You know thats not true. Livingston is playing excelent D on Nash credit to him, but nash is playing hurt and exhausted, the clippers D isn't making Nash miss open jump shots. Watch his rythm somethings hurting he can drive to the hoop but he is shooting awkwardly.

If all was needed was some defence on Nash then everyteam in the league can't defend him, coz Nash has had great games against all teams, and that argument i just there is as floored as yours.


----------



## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

Nash is not overrated.

Winning the MVP doesnt mean Best and Most Talented Player.... never was, never will.

But Nash is an elite player.. and has been the league's Best point guard the last 2 seasons. 

People act as if Nash isn't talented or skilled... outside of windmills and between the leg dunks... Nash is amazing to watch and is as skilled and capable as anyone in the league... he isnt the strongest, quickest, highest leaper nor the biggest.. but he has elite talent.. and just simply a brilliant player overall.


----------



## Sedd (Sep 1, 2003)

An MVP that dunk?? What the hell?? This award is a joke now. Until Kobe or Bron wins it of course. On the defense issue, Shaq and Barkley have never attempted to play defense and won MVP's. Lebron's defense sucks too, so don't pull the defense card on me about Nash.


----------



## L (Sep 20, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> Just as there were better players than Nash on better teams these past two seasons.
> 
> The voters prefer the fantasy that Nash "just makes everyone better" over the less-heroic truth that the system is ideal for all the players currently in it, of which Nash is one. Nash may be the ideal point guard for the system, and an excellent player, but he's not elevating everyone else's ability. He didn't do it at any other stop, notably Dallas, and he's not doing it in Phoenix.
> 
> But pretending he is makes a great story.


ditto


----------



## L (Sep 20, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> I was joking. And keep saying Nash is overrated in all your posts. Maybe then it will be right!


oh wait, he is right! :clown:


----------



## L (Sep 20, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> Entirely true. And I was far from alone in that. No one gave the Suns much chance after losing both Joe Johnson and Amare Stoudemire.
> 
> Of course, the flip side of that is that many people were giving Nash credit for the surprises that emerged on the team, like Boris Diaw, James Jones (early in the season) and Tim Thomas (late in the season).
> 
> So I still disagree that Nash is given little credit on this site. And most people who don't believe Nash was deserving of either MVP award, like me, still believe Nash to be a tremendous player.


hail minstrel.


----------



## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

FullMetalAlchemist said:


> oh wait, he is right! :clown:


oh i knew i was right, dont u worry lol


----------



## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

23isback said:


> Not trying to start anything, but when you win the MVP twice, you should be pretty damn proud of yourself. :cheers:


When you've been in the league for ten years, have been considered one of the all time greatest players of the game, considered the best current point-guard in the game, stole the MVP title twice back-to-back, and have no titles to show for it, you shouldn't be pretty damn proud of yourself.

:cheers:


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> When you've been in the league for ten years, have been considered one of the all time greatest players of the game, considered the best current point-guard in the game, stole the MVP title twice back-to-back, and have no titles to show for it, you shouldn't be pretty damn proud of yourself.
> 
> :cheers:


Bottomline: [strike] You're just some 16 year old faag who hates Nash. Go get laid, your hate for him is pathetic. [/strike]


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

FullMetalAlchemist said:


> hail minstrel.


Develop your own opinion. Agreeing with Minstrel because he is smart doesn't make you smart. 

Sorry.


----------



## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> Bottomline: You're just some 16 year old faag who hates Nash. Go get laid, your hate for him is pathetic.


lol dude... i'm beyond picking fights, i actually enjoy debating in this thread.... but your how old???

like i've said, u cant just abuse anyone who doesnt agree with your opinion.

go get laid, your homerism for nash is pathetic


----------



## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

Avalanche said:


> lol dude... i'm beyond picking fights, i actually enjoy debating in this thread.... but your how old???
> 
> like i've said, u cant just abuse anyone who doesnt agree with your opinion.
> 
> go get laid, your homerism for nash is pathetic



Hint: Hes talking to shadyballer..........

And I guess Charles, and Malone don't deserve their MVP awards. They didn't win a championship.


----------



## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

Nash getting exposed in this series.


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

You should have seen what happened when I started the "John STockton is overrated" thread... :boxing:


----------



## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

Dr.Seuss said:


> Hint: Hes talking to shadyballer..........


Hint: i know, i just thought it was un-called for



> And I guess Charles, and Malone don't deserve their MVP awards. They didn't win a championship.


No actually they did, this isnt 'did nash deserve mvp' its 'is nash overrated'.. and personally i believe he is, as do obviously quite a few people.
there is no point just bashing the people who dont agree with his opinion, because have a look through this thread... there are some very respected posters, and people who know quite a lot about the nba and basketball in general who are agreeing with the thread title.


----------



## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

Aurelino said:


> Nash getting exposed in this series.


definately, his stats for the series when its finished will be very interesting


----------



## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> edited


If that pisses you off, you got a long road ahead in life, buddy


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

dannyM said:


> If that pisses you off, you got a long road ahead in life, buddy


Life is lookin good for me, don't worry.


----------



## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> Life is lookin good for me, don't worry.


"That isn't an opinion, it's pure garbage." :rofl:


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

lol nice one Danny. Don't laugh to hard at your own joke.


----------



## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

I love how the Suns are one game to making back to WCF AGAIN and yet all I see on this board is 

"overrated"
"exposed"
"not deserving"
blah blah blah


----------



## L (Sep 20, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> Develop your own opinion. Agreeing with Minstrel because he is smart doesn't make you smart.
> 
> Sorry.


Has the thought occured to u that my opinion was similar to minstrel's opinion on this matter?, and that minstrel just basically summed it up so there is no need for further explanation?

Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. My opinion just happens to be the same as what minstrel is talking about. I think hes a great pg but i think he is overrated and shouldnt have won the mvp this year. he was a close second if u ask me.


----------



## big0mar (May 19, 2006)

GoDWade said:


> I love how the Suns are one game to making back to WCF AGAIN and yet all I see on this board is
> 
> "overrated"
> "exposed"
> ...


the cavs are one game away from making the ECF, does that make Eric Snow MVP??? Steve Nash is the most overrated player in the history of the league. The Mavs got better once he left. Ive never heard of an MVP being a defensive LIABILITY. Nash's defense is piss poor to say the least. 


Nash lacks ideal body strength and conditioning. Look at this series against the Clippers? When was the last time Nash hit an outside jumpshot? His legs are so worn that he cant even get lift on his jumpers. Absolutely pathetic.

And whoever said that the MVP is selected by people who know more about the game than us is a complete moron. The award is voted on by sportswriters, the biggest dunces in the world. They were never good enough to play the game, never smart enough to be a GM, so now they think they can be important by voting for someone who reminds them of themselves (small, white, and lacking strength).


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

big0mar said:


> the cavs are one game away from making the ECF, does that make Eric Snow MVP??? Steve Nash is the most overrated player in the history of the league. The Mavs got better once he left. Ive never heard of an MVP being a defensive LIABILITY. Nash's defense is piss poor to say the least.


That is a horrible comparison used to strengthen your argument as you and I know Snow isn't the player that makes the Cavs go. The Mavs getting better when Nash left has nothing to do with Nash at all, the team got better because they got a new coach who had some sense and preached playing defense added to Dirk coming into his own as an NBA player. Nash isn't anymore a liability on defense as Marion was in the series against the Lakers, it's about how you matchup. Also. Nash doesn't need defense to prove his worth unlike other non Suns players because as I posted earlier in the thread:

_Nash is a good defender for the system he plays in. Pheonix's game plan is to bait you into shots you wouldn't ordinarily take in order to allow them to run off long rebounds. Doing this gets teams out of their offensive flow, thus causing players to make it a one man show. In other words using the argument that Nash isn't a great defender is pointless as it relates to Nash and his MVP awards because he isn't asked to shutdown anyone due to the D' Antoni system. Pheonix basically bamboozles and hoodwinks opposing teams into thinking they are playing well offensively when in all actuality they are playing into the Suns defensive strategy. The strategy is to prove you can make a jump shot over and over again and when you miss we will take the long rebound and have a fastbreak. Pheonix's system is to outscore the opponent, not shut them down. When it relates to Suns players you can't compare them to other players fairly due to the fact that the D'Antoni system is so unique._



big0mar said:


> Nash lacks ideal body strength and conditioning. Look at this series against the Clippers? When was the last time Nash hit an outside jumpshot? His legs are so worn that he cant even get lift on his jumpers. Absolutely pathetic.


It does seem as if Nash is fatigued, but I don't think this should be used to cheapen his MVP award.



big0mar said:


> And whoever said that the MVP is selected by people who know more about the game than us is a complete moron. The award is voted on by sportswriters, the biggest dunces in the world. They were never good enough to play the game, never smart enough to be a GM, so now they think they can be important by voting for someone who reminds them of themselves (small, white, and lacking strength).


no argument here.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

ralaw - is your point that nash isn't bad at defense because he isn't asked to play any? is that for real?

there is some truth in that players playing against nash may get big eyes and play a little outside their normal game (players tend to score more and more efficiently against nash), but there are simply times where man defense is required. you can at least have an honest assessment of his abilities, instead of simply sweeping it under the rug. would an argument that it's irrelevant that marion isn't great at creating his shot be a good one, since in phx style, it's not part of the gameplan? no, because there are times when it hurts them. same for nash's defense.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

kflo said:


> ralaw - is your point that nash isn't bad at defense because he isn't asked to play any? is that for real?
> 
> there is some truth in that players playing against nash may get big eyes and play a little outside their normal game (players tend to score more and more efficiently against nash), but there are simply times where man defense is required. you can at least have an honest assessment of his abilities, instead of simply sweeping it under the rug. would an argument that it's irrelevant that marion isn't great at creating his shot be a good one, since in phx style, it's not part of the gameplan? no, because there are times when it hurts them. same for nash's defense.


I agree kflo, I am by no means saying Nash's defense isn't bad or irrelevent, but my point is in the Pheonix system he isn't asked to play any in favor of being at full strength on offense. Having a fresh Nash on offense is far more valuable than a Nash attempting to lock down Sam Cassell. I basically have two points, firstly, comparing Nash's defense to that of other MVP's or players who actually play defense is pointless due to him not being required or asked to be a lock down defender due to the D' Antoni system. My other point is the D'Antoni system is predicated on their opponent taking shots out of the offense, thus damaging the offensive flow and leading to poor chemistry. Nash's defense is relevant in that he needs to attempt to stay in front of his man, but not stop him. The major time in the game when you would think most players should focus more on defense is in the closing minutes of a close game; however, this Suns team isn't built to stop people nor is it built for close games down the stretch due to the D'Antoni coaching philosophy, which is why they have lost 7 of their last 8 games involving 3 points or less. 

The Suns have no problem letting a player take 20 footers as long as they can get the long rebound and run back down the court for a 3 or layup. This is something the Clippers have finally figured out. This is why they only took 5 three point attempts in game 6. The way to beat the Suns is through scoring points in the paint as this minimizes their fast break opportunity, thus causing them to slow down their play into a half court game and forcing them to play defense which they don't want to do.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

so you acknowledge it's a weakness and it hurts the team at times. yet you're downplaying its significance. just because the teams style compensates for it somewhat, doesn't mean that he couldn't help the team more by doing it better. again, no difference than marion's ability to create. and if we brush over that, you could argue he's as important at the things he is asked to do as nash.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Saying sportswriters are not intelligent isn't right, because some of us here, are sportswriters or thought about becoming sports writers. 

I trust the opinions of sports writers with a caveat.

They must be NBA beat writers and national NBA writers/analysts who vote on these awards. 

Why? 

Because they watch the entire season, not just games on national television or ESPN highlights. They have NBATV and League Pass. They watch the Bobcats and the Golden State Warriors. 

These are the people who need to be voting on awards.

Just my opinion.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

alot of those guys follow 1 team.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

kflo said:


> so you acknowledge it's a weakness and it hurts the team at times. yet you're downplaying its significance. just because the teams style compensates for it somewhat, doesn't mean that he couldn't help the team more by doing it better. again, no difference than marion's ability to create. and if we brush over that, you could argue he's as important at the things he is asked to do as nash.


I'm not downplaying his defense, but simply pointing to how people overrate his ineffectiveness within the context of this Suns team. The Suns' players and D' Antoni understand this team's strengths and weaknesses, which is why they are a run and gun team who attempt to run you out of the building in order not to have to play defense down the stretch. I believe Marion is important to this Suns' team success due to him having mastered doing the little things (and the things other player don't want or can't do) to make this team better, so yes, in my opinion he has the same amount of value as Nash.


----------



## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

big0mar said:


> the cavs are one game away from making the ECF, does that make Eric Snow MVP??? Steve Nash is the most overrated player in the history of the league. The Mavs got better once he left. Ive never heard of an MVP being a defensive LIABILITY. Nash's defense is piss poor to say the least.


Eric Snow doesn't run the offense for Cavs does he? Is he also THE captain for the team? No. Nash, on the other hand, is the engine for the Suns. There is a difference between overrated and completely unworthy as a player. When some of people on this board say Nash is overrated they downplay him like he is nothing

and also, the Suns are playing in the still more difficult and more elite conference of the West, that by itself is pretty impressive too

It's obvious some of you hate, like I said, when the Suns are doing well and most people still criticizing him



> Nash lacks ideal body strength and conditioning. Look at this series against the Clippers? When was the last time Nash hit an outside jumpshot? His legs are so worn that he cant even get lift on his jumpers. Absolutely pathetic.


So he struggles---so what. He is playing and the team is winning. He is still giving as much as he can to the team Still, all criticisms, no praise




> And whoever said that the MVP is selected by people who know more about the game than us is a complete moron. The award is voted on by sportswriters, the biggest dunces in the world. They were never good enough to play the game, never smart enough to be a GM, so now they think they can be important by voting for someone who reminds them of themselves (small, white, and lacking strength).


Some of us do know less than the sportswriters. Keep your eyes open and you will see who they are


----------



## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

ralaw said:


> I'm not downplaying his defense, but simply pointing to how people overrate his ineffectiveness within the context of this Suns team. The Suns' players and D' Antoni understand this team's strengths and weaknesses, which is why they are a run and gun team who attempt to run you out of the building in order not to have to play defense down the stretch. I believe Marion is important to this Suns' team success due to him having mastered doing the little things (and the things other player don't want or can't do) to make this team better, so yes, in my opinion he has the same amount of value as Nash.


Ralaw, I agree Marion is important, but tell me again who acutally RUNS the offense for the Suns? who actually execute the offense? Whose arrival have coincide with the transformation of the Suns? Who have made D'Antoni's system come alive and flourish? Nash has a big part in all of these


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

GoDWade said:


> Ralaw, I agree Marion is important, but tell me again who acutally RUNS the offense for the Suns? who actually execute the offense? Whose arrival have coincide with the transformation of the Suns? Who have made D'Antoni's system come alive and flourish? Nash has a big part in all of these


I agree, me saying Marion is similarly important to Nash is by no means down playing what Nash has accomplished; however, I do not believe if this team lost Marion for a long period of time or replaced him in the lineup they would have equal success. Marion provides an aspect to the Suns that is often overlooked and in my opinion couldn't be replace by anyone in the league. Marion's impact is strange in that it he has a huge impact on the game without disrupting what the Suns as a team are trying to accomplish. Which means if I placed KG, Duncan, etc into this lineup, they would cause D' Antoni to change up his entire offensive philosophy, thus making him a less effective coach. In order for Nash to do what he does he needs certain things to be in place and Marion is one of these things, and without him Nash wouldn't be "Nash the MVP."


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

GoDWade said:


> I love how the Suns are one game to making back to WCF AGAIN and yet all I see on this board is
> 
> "overrated"
> "exposed"
> ...


As mentioned before in this thread, its possibly the easiest road to the WCF in NBA History.


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> As mentioned before in this thread, its possibly the easiest road to the WCF in NBA History.


??? When are the Lakers (KOBE KOBE KOBE) and the Clippers "the easiest road" ? When is Nash fault that his team is the second seed and therefore they draw the lesser seeds?


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## Nashaholic (Mar 30, 2005)

Avalanche said:


> all the playoffs games so far, and 18-20 ish during the season


How do you get to see so many games in Australia? The time difference is like 8ish hours right, so some station would have to play them live and youd have to watch at like noon or some station would have have to replay suns games in Australia. 

No sarcasm im honestly curious


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

Nashaholic said:


> How do you get to see so many games in Australia? The time difference is like 8ish hours right, so some station would have to play them live and youd have to watch at like noon or some station would have have to replay suns games in Australia.
> 
> No sarcasm im honestly curious


first of all espn, nba.com and through my pc by other methods.... didnt see many live, but watched them none the less.
no sarcasm taken, no sweat.
and i actually like the suns system, and enjoy watching nash play as i've said, hence watching their games.... i just think with the media hype and the credit he has recieved all season, in my opinion he is overrated.


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

GoDWade said:


> ??? When are the Lakers (KOBE KOBE KOBE) and the Clippers "the easiest road" ? When is Nash fault that his team is the second seed and therefore they draw the lesser seeds?


When they're being compared to having to go through two 60-win teams in Dallas and San Antonio.


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> When they're being compared to having to go through two 60-win teams in Dallas and San Antonio.


You said it was the easiest road in NBA history.


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Avalanche said:


> first of all espn, nba.com and through my pc by other methods.... didnt see many live, but watched them none the less.
> no sarcasm taken, no sweat.
> and i actually like the suns system, and enjoy watching nash play as i've said, hence watching their games.... i just think with the media hype and the credit he has recieved all season, in my opinion he is overrated.


I fully understand where you are coming from. BUT PLEASE, PLEASE tell me that you don't honestly believe all that shabdyalla19 is saying. CMON. His arguments are absurd and it's clear he actually hates Nash.


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> I fully understand where you are coming from. BUT PLEASE, PLEASE tell me that you don't honestly believe all that shabdyalla19 is saying. CMON. His arguments are absurd and it's clear he actually hates Nash.


he may be a little biased if he doesnt actually like nash in the first place.
there's no real way for me to tell that, i just agree with the general point he is putting across.
it's what i've been saying all thread, he may just put it a little differently.
i'm just not gonna go around bashing anyone because of their point of view, debates on here are half the reason the forum exists... to get a different perspective on things.
its hard for you as a nash fan to see at all where we're coming from, because u think no matter how hyped he is he deserves it.
i however like nash as a player, and off the court... but think the hype and attention he has gotten has been slightly blown ot of proportion, hence being overrated.

peace :cheers:


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> You said it was the easiest road in NBA history.


I said possibly.


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Avalanche said:


> he may be a little biased if he doesnt actually like nash in the first place.
> there's no real way for me to tell that, i just agree with the general point he is putting across.
> it's what i've been saying all thread, he may just put it a little differently.
> i'm just not gonna go around bashing anyone because of their point of view, debates on here are half the reason the forum exists... to get a different perspective on things.
> ...


I wouldn't have been upset if Dirk Lebron or Kobe won MVP over Nash this year. I just think his arguments for why Nash is overrated aren't right.

I didn't bash him until he said Nash shouldn't be proud of winning two MVP's. That's where his argument crosses over from thinking he's overrated to hating him.

But if you agree with him that's your opinion.


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## big0mar (May 19, 2006)

i cant believe how everyone just ignores nash's lack of defensive competence. by saying "well he needs to save his energy for offense", you are just making my case. a true MVP would have enough energy to be a defensive stopper in addition to an offensive force. i am not saying that nash isn't a superior player. however, he is not worthy of being MVP. 

Someone earlier used the argument taht Nash plays in a superior conference. However, while the West is superior big-man wise, the East is stronger in the PG position. an indicator i look to often when analyzing MVP candidates is how they did against the other top players at their respective position. look what happened when hes gone head to head against billups and kidd:

11/10/05(vs. det): 
Nash: 18pts. 8asst. 6to. 0reb. (LOSS)
*Billups: 27pts. 11asst. 3to. 1reb. (WIN)*

11/25/05(vs. njn):
Nash: 27pts. 7asst. 1to. 3reb. (WIN)
Kidd: 25pts. 5asst. 5to. 13reb. (LOSS)

3/27/06 (vs. njn):
*Nash: 0pts. 5asst. 2to. 3reb. (LOSS)*
Kidd: 9pts. 7asst. 4to. 10reb. (WIN)

4/2/06 (vs. det):
Nash: 13pts. 9asst. 2to. 2reb. (LOSS)
*Billups: 35pts. 5asst. 3to. 4reb. (WIN)*

Do these performances look MVP-worthy to you??? Nash was outplayed by both, especially Billups. while you cant completely judge a player by a few games, it shows that head-to-head, nash is outplayed when facing the other elite PGs in the league.


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## TheMilkMan (Jul 21, 2004)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> He's built for the regular season. He won't lead his team past the Clips, and you can quote me on that.




Good games. See you next year.


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## Intense Enigma (Oct 22, 2005)

Last night Steve Nash show why he is the 2 time MVP

two total different SUNS team from last season to this season,no problem to trips to the WCF in a row :biggrin:


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## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

Mr. Overrated just took his team to the WCF for the 2nd straight year(they were a lottery team the year before)....this year, he also did it without an inside presence and basically a team of jump shooters.


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## paperclip (Mar 24, 2006)

big0mar said:


> i cant believe how everyone just ignores nash's lack of defensive competence. by saying "well he needs to save his energy for offense", you are just making my case. a true MVP would have enough energy to be a defensive stopper in addition to an offensive force. i am not saying that nash isn't a superior player. however, he is not worthy of being MVP.
> 
> Someone earlier used the argument taht Nash plays in a superior conference. However, while the West is superior big-man wise, the East is stronger in the PG position. an indicator i look to often when analyzing MVP candidates is how they did against the other top players at their respective position. look what happened when hes gone head to head against billups and kidd:
> 
> ...


I wouldn't know, because this analysis is dumb.


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## big0mar (May 19, 2006)

paperclip said:


> I wouldn't know, because this analysis is dumb.


is that the best you can do?


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

big0mar said:


> is that the best you can do?


is that the best you can do, still getting stuck in the regular season while the Suns are in the western conference finals again?


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## Sedd (Sep 1, 2003)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> He's built for the regular season. He will lead his team past the Clips, and you can quote me on that.
> 
> I am a joke.


I agree


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

TheMilkMan said:


> Good games. See you next year.


Haha, O.K., so I made one bad prediction.

Nash is still overrated.

BTW, I'm not a Clips fan.



Sedd said:


> I agree


----------



## Sedd (Sep 1, 2003)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> Haha, O.K., so I made one bad prediction.
> 
> Nash is still overrated.
> 
> BTW, I'm not a Clips fan.


You are a Lakers fan, even worse.


----------



## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> I wouldn't have been upset if Dirk Lebron or Kobe won MVP over Nash this year. I just think his arguments for why Nash is overrated aren't right.
> 
> I didn't bash him until he said Nash shouldn't be proud of winning two MVP's. That's where his argument crosses over from thinking he's overrated to hating him.
> 
> But if you agree with him that's your opinion.


1. thats the main reason i think he is overrated, he gets back to backs, when in my opinion i think any of the 3 guys u mentioned should have won it... nash was top 5 imo. i just think he gets too much credit for things the team, and other players on his team achieves.
and the nba seems to be heading in a high tempo, finesse game and seem to be promoting nash a little much for my liking.

2. i agree with u... whether i (or anyone else) think nash is overrated is irrelivant when it comes to this point, let the guy be proud, i mean he won 2 mvp's in a row...


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> Haha, O.K., so I made one bad prediction.
> 
> Nash is still overrated.
> 
> BTW, I'm not a Clips fan.


Just go away. Nash put up 29 and 11, and led his team to the WCF again. And just like yesterday, and the day before, your just a little hater.


----------



## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

I know I'm kinda late to the party, but for the sake of economy, here's a post I made in another basketball forum:



> Nash has also played the last 8 seasons with a stress fracture in his spine that is causing his spondylolisthesis (learn more here: http://www.spine-health.com/dir/spondy.html). He has missed FOURTEEN games in the last 5 seasons, where every team he has been on has been the best offensive team in the league, including the Suns of last year, who were HISTORIC in their offensive prowess.
> 
> All of you hating on the man, you can at least give him his due with his resilience. His back issue has never been publicized until it finally started affecting him adversely in these playoffs. He HAS been asked to do more this season than in any of his previous seasons, you know.
> 
> ...


----------



## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Yet he will never use that as an excuse. Another thing nobody considers, and probably choose to ignore.


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

i knew about it, but its completely irrelivant to this thread to be honest.
its an amazing achievement, and he's one tough mo fo to be playing through it year after year.
but the point of the matter is being 'overrated' hence being given more credit than due, and being described as better than he actually is.
the mvp voting is relevant... because its one of the reasons he has become overrated to me personally, the media and voters decide how they will vote for the mvp, and they choose to do it in a way that very much favours steve nash.
i'm sorta over this arguement, neither side is ever going to agree... which is the way it should be, but its useless trying to convince nash fan boys their player is overrated because even if he was they wouldnt be able to recognize it.
try to tell me KG is overrated and ill argue til my fingers cant type any more.... its just how it is, i dont disrespect the fact they defend their man, but i do in this case think they are wrong.
i just think the hype and credit he has been given is slightly more than he actually deserves, again that = overrated.

/2c


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## paperclip (Mar 24, 2006)

big0mar said:


> is that the best you can do?


Relax. I was having a bad day. Nothing I couldn't cure though by downing some Kool Aid soaked white bread.


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

27 points, 16 assists, and 5 rebs, while leading a late comeback in the 4th and pulling out the win for the Suns in game 1 of the WCF.

What do you think about that ahabdyallaD19?


----------



## BootyKing (Apr 7, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> 27 points, 16 assists, and 5 rebs, while leading a late comeback in the 4th and pulling out the win for the Suns in game 1 of the WCF.
> 
> What do you think about that ahabdyallaD19?


I dunno what he thinks. But i think MVP!!!


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

Haters gone fishing!


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

GoDWade said:


> Haters gone fishing!


i aint a hater, and that was one hell of an impressive game by nash.
i still stand by everything i've put into this thread.... one game isnt going to change my mind


----------



## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

Avalanche said:


> i aint a hater, and that was one hell of an impressive game by nash.
> i still stand by everything i've put into this thread.... one game isnt going to change my mind


wasn't talking about you. I was more referring to the people who because they think Nash is overrated that they downplay EVERYTHING he does---as if he is just some average NBA player. 

I am also not interested in changing your min, because Nash and the Suns are speaking louder than any of us with our keyboards and mouses


----------



## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> He's built for the regular season. He won't lead his team past the Clips, and you can quote me on that.


owned?


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

CiMa said:


> owned?


owned.

touche


----------



## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> If Pheonix get to the Conference Finals this year, i should not be seeing any more of this BS of Nash being overrated.





Shadyball8D13 said:


> I still don't get it.


blah





ShadyBall8D13 said:


> No. The MVP award will never be back to respectable status. Its completely a joke. It could however have been won by a respectable candidate, which IMO could have been LeBron, Dirk, or Kobe. They all deserved the award more than Nash.
> 
> I'll never respect the MVP award, even if it went to Kobe.


blah blah




same dude said:


> Yeah, out running the opposing team and not putting forth any effort whatsoever on the defensive end of the game.
> 
> Yep, thats how its supposed to be played.


blah blah blah



same dude said:


> MVPs should completely surpass expectations


blah blah blah blah



> As I mentioned before, statistics is where Nash excels.


blah blah blah blah blah



Darknight1996 said:


> MVP should be taken in consideration but they are only regular season awards. What a player does in the playoffs should be used to evaluate them as well. i do not think you can call a player great if they never do well in the playoffs.


blah blah blah blah blah blah



LW said:


> The only thing overrated about Nash are his joke MVP awards


blah blah blah blah blah blah blah



Minstrel said:


> The voters prefer the fantasy that Nash "just makes everyone better" over the less-heroic truth that the system is ideal for all the players currently in it, of which Nash is one. Nash may be the ideal point guard for the system, and an excellent player, but he's not elevating everyone else's ability. He didn't do it at any other stop, notably Dallas, and he's not doing it in Phoenix.
> 
> But pretending he is makes a great story.


blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Nash does make the players around him better in the sense that he recognizes miss-matches better then any other PG in the league. He's gets his teammates the ball when they are in a good position to score.


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

get off Steve Nash's ****


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

ElMarroAfamado said:


> get off Steve Nash's ****


you need a hug?


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

owned


----------



## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

Avalanche said:


> i knew about it, but its completely irrelivant to this thread to be honest.
> its an amazing achievement, and he's one tough mo fo to be playing through it year after year.
> but the point of the matter is being 'overrated' hence being given more credit than due, and being described as better than he actually is.
> the mvp voting is relevant... because its one of the reasons he has become overrated to me personally, the media and voters decide how they will vote for the mvp, and they choose to do it in a way that very much favours steve nash.
> ...


It's only useless because you refuse to think Nash deserves to be a MVP just like some of you here think. We are not professionals. Don't tell me you know more than those GMs that spend way more money/energy/time on their teams and know about basketball more than 99% of us here. The GMs voted Nash as MVP. You can argue that those sports-writers are just following the "trend" (whatever that is) but when the GMs feel Nash is the MVP, there's gotta be some truth in it. The only thing that makes you think Nash isn't a MVP is that there are no Michael Jordan in this league now to compare with. The competition level is just different. 

Is it Nash's fault that the competition level just seems "weaker"? Mind you, Nash never claims he is the MVP, unlike some dudes who think they are MVPs.


----------



## kindred (Dec 26, 2004)

w/e.......even if nash wins the title and final mvp, haters will still be haters....so leave them be, u can't ever change someone's opinions by words alone


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

He sure looked over-rated last night when he dragged his vastly undermanned and outsized team to victory on the road in the Western Conference Finals last night.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

The whole, its not Nash, its the system argument is a load of bull****. For the best players its always the player AND the system. When you've got a great player you build the system around him. You don't think the Lakers build their system around Kobe? The Cavs around Lebron? The Spurs around Duncan? The Bulls around Jordan? etc. etc. etc. etc. That's what you do when you've got a great one. You build a system and a team around them that compliment what they do. It doesn't take away from what they can do out there, it magnifies it. Nothing happens in a vacuum (well... except, it seems, the reasoning that gets posted on this site).


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## Sanjan (Mar 12, 2003)

really how can you not give it to him. scoring titles are scoring titles, best defensive player is best defensive player. without nash the suns might as well pack it in. without dirk dallas is still a top seed. without lebron clevland probably contends for a playoff spot. without kobe the lakers might do just as well as they did with him. He wins them games yes, but you can't deny he's shot la out of many wins. everyone on that team besides smush parker player worse then there potential and i think if you put half of them with nash they'd put up a fight for home court in the first round.

to be valuable u need to win games for your team nobody wins more games then nash. its more then one clutch shoot in crunch time its keeping your team in the games till the end or winning out right. 

i also think jason kidd in his years was very good and deserving but there were better teams thourght the season each year.

kobe, lebron, dirk and nash all have 1 all star player with them (dirk has many) but nash is the only one that made his all star better.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> The whole, its not Nash, its the system argument is a load of bull****. For the best players its always the player AND the system. When you've got a great player you build the system around him. You don't think the Lakers build their system around Kobe? The Cavs around Lebron? The Spurs around Duncan? The Bulls around Jordan? etc. etc. etc. etc. That's what you do when you've got a great one. You build a system and a team around them that compliment what they do. It doesn't take away from what they can do out there, it magnifies it. Nothing happens in a vacuum (well... except, it seems, the reasoning that gets posted on this site).


most people have no problem giving nash credit for his production within the system, and how he enhances the system. the problem is much of nash's argument filters down to every other player on the team, and nash gets the credit for them as well. it's in part the system that also enhances the production of guys like marion, diaw, barbosa, thomas (amare when around) - yet it's all attributed to nash. people see production from those guys and say look how good NASH is. guys definitely a stud, but just keep it realistic on how the credit gets divied up.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Sanjan said:


> really how can you not give it to him. scoring titles are scoring titles, best defensive player is best defensive player. without nash the suns might as well pack it in. without dirk dallas is still a top seed. without lebron clevland probably contends for a playoff spot. without kobe the lakers might do just as well as they did with him. He wins them games yes, but you can't deny he's shot la out of many wins. everyone on that team besides smush parker player worse then there potential and i think if you put half of them with nash they'd put up a fight for home court in the first round.


i think you're delusional about the state of these teams without their stars.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

Sanjan said:


> really how can you not give it to him. scoring titles are scoring titles, best defensive player is best defensive player. without nash the suns might as well pack it in. without dirk dallas is still a top seed. without lebron clevland probably contends for a playoff spot. without kobe the lakers might do just as well as they did with him. He wins them games yes, but you can't deny he's shot la out of many wins. everyone on that team besides smush parker player worse then there potential and i think if you put half of them with nash they'd put up a fight for home court in the first round.
> 
> to be valuable u need to win games for your team nobody wins more games then nash. its more then one clutch shoot in crunch time its keeping your team in the games till the end or winning out right.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but this post is so wrong and is one of the worst posts I have ever read. Lakers just as good without Kobe? Cavs in the playoffs without LeBron? Dallas still a TOP seed without Dirk? You are a crazy one, Mr. Grinch.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The thing is, people conveniently bump these threads. I don't think Nash is overrated, but from Game 2 to Game 6 in the Clippers series he was practically invisible and Shawn Marion got no credit for having 30/15 type of games for 3 of those games, which is rather odd. 

He's a great player, but he doesn't do it night in and night out. Even last night Boris Diaw had 34 frickin points. Nash played awesome, but other guys have been playing their butts off. 

Diaw having a good series will just prove how underrated Elton Brand's defense on him really was. Diaw is not used to getting his shot packed like Brand was doing.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Sanjan said:


> without dirk dallas is still a top seed.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> The whole, its not Nash, its the system argument is a load of bull****. For the best players its always the player AND the system. When you've got a great player you build the system around him. You don't think the Lakers build their system around Kobe? The Cavs around Lebron? The Spurs around Duncan? The Bulls around Jordan? etc. etc. etc. etc. That's what you do when you've got a great one. You build a system and a team around them that compliment what they do. It doesn't take away from what they can do out there, it magnifies it. Nothing happens in a vacuum (well... except, it seems, the reasoning that gets posted on this site).


Van Gundy's system isn't working for Yao and McGrady though, that's for damn sure.


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> The whole, its not Nash, its the system argument is a load of bull****. For the best players its always the player AND the system. When you've got a great player you build the system around him. You don't think the Lakers build their system around Kobe? The Cavs around Lebron? The Spurs around Duncan? The Bulls around Jordan? etc. etc. etc. etc. That's what you do when you've got a great one. You build a system and a team around them that compliment what they do. It doesn't take away from what they can do out there, it magnifies it. Nothing happens in a vacuum (well... except, it seems, the reasoning that gets posted on this site).


wow, you actually know and play basketball


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## big0mar (May 19, 2006)

Sanjan said:


> really how can you not give it to him. scoring titles are scoring titles, best defensive player is best defensive player. *without nash the suns might as well pack it in. without dirk dallas is still a top seed. without lebron clevland probably contends for a playoff spot. without kobe the lakers might do just as well as they did with him.* He wins them games yes, but you can't deny he's shot la out of many wins. everyone on that team besides smush parker player worse then there potential and i think if you put half of them with nash they'd put up a fight for home court in the first round.
> 
> to be valuable u need to win games for your team nobody wins more games then nash. its more then one clutch shoot in crunch time its keeping your team in the games till the end or winning out right.
> 
> ...


nash has more talent on his team than kobe and lebron have on theirs. 

get a clue dude.


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## big0mar (May 19, 2006)

jibikao said:


> It's only useless because you refuse to think Nash deserves to be a MVP just like some of you here think. We are not professionals. Don't tell me you know more than those GMs that spend way more money/energy/time on their teams and know about basketball more than 99% of us here. * The GMs voted Nash as MVP*. You can argue that those sports-writers are just following the "trend" (whatever that is) but when the GMs feel Nash is the MVP, there's gotta be some truth in it. The only thing that makes you think Nash isn't a MVP is that there are no Michael Jordan in this league now to compare with. The competition level is just different.
> 
> Is it Nash's fault that the competition level just seems "weaker"? Mind you, Nash never claims he is the MVP, unlike some dudes who think they are MVPs.


you are wrong.

GMs dont vote for the MVP. US and CANADIAN journalists do. 

all defensive team is voted on by coaches.

*YOU JUST GOT SERVED*


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Prolific Scorer said:


> Van Gundy's system isn't working for Yao and McGrady though, that's for damn sure.


injuries...


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

HKF said:


> The thing is, people conveniently bump these threads. I don't think Nash is overrated, but from Game 2 to Game 6 in the Clippers series he was practically invisible and Shawn Marion got no credit for having 30/15 type of games for 3 of those games, which is rather odd.
> 
> He's a great player, but he doesn't do it night in and night out. Even last night Boris Diaw had 34 frickin points. Nash played awesome, but other guys have been playing their butts off.
> 
> Diaw having a good series will just prove how underrated Elton Brand's defense on him really was. Diaw is not used to getting his shot packed like Brand was doing.


this is not directly towards you, but in general:

ESPN have been doing a pretty decent job covering the Suns. They don't go the "NASH MAKES EVERYBODY BETTER" route and instead gives props when other players play well (Marion, Bell, Diaw). They, in fact, have also noted Nash's production deficiency during the Clippers series

I conveniently bump this thread because I am sick of look at people who this board who trashes Nash and thinks he is a joke---Yes Kobe and Lebron was more of a worthy candidate, but that does not mean Nash wasn't a worthy candidate also, he has his own resume to back the awards up. People keep on saying how Nash only plays 1/2 of the court and how that won't get the Suns to anywhere...and Suns are up 1-0 in the WESTERN CONFERENCE FINALS, and Nash was part of that amazing comeback

it's really great because Nash and the Suns are speaking louder in their success in the playoffs than us with our mouses and keyboards


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

Prolific Scorer said:


> Van Gundy's system isn't working for Yao and McGrady though, that's for damn sure.


Van Gundy is not as good a coach as D Atoni, and Van Gundy's system might not be ideal for Yao and T-Mac also


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## big0mar (May 19, 2006)

GoDWade said:


> this is not directly towards you, but in general:
> 
> ESPN have been doing a pretty decent job covering the Suns. They don't go the "NASH MAKES EVERYBODY BETTER" route and instead gives props when other players play well (Marion, Bell, Diaw). They, in fact, have also noted Nash's production deficiency during the Clippers series
> 
> ...


nobody said nash wasnt a worthy candidate. i only stated that i dont think he was deserving of the MVP, thus overrated. no question in my mind he is a top 10-15 player in this league. but for him to win MVP over Lebron, Kobe, Dirk and Wade is a little too much. 

and please dont talk about how well the Suns are doing. Yes, they are having a terrific postseason. But they arent the only ones. Miami has been more impressive IMO. The Suns needed 7 games to beat two average teams. They did beat the Mavs in game 1, but i think that was due more to the Mavs having to adjust after the San Antonio series. I still like the Mavs in 6.


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## BootyKing (Apr 7, 2005)

big0mar said:


> nobody said nash wasnt a worthy candidate. i only stated that i dont think he was deserving of the MVP, thus overrated. no question in my mind he is a top 10-15 player in this league. but for him to win MVP over Lebron, Kobe, Dirk and Wade is a little too much.
> 
> and please dont talk about how well the Suns are doing. Yes, they are having a terrific postseason. But they arent the only ones. Miami has been more impressive IMO. The Suns needed 7 games to beat two average teams. They did beat the Mavs in game 1, but i think that was due more to the Mavs having to adjust after the San Antonio series. I still like the Mavs in 6.


The reason people talk about how well the Suns are doing is because of their roster, and how they only have 3 remaining players from last season. The Suns have accomplished alot more than any1 expected. Saying the clippers are just can average team is really not giving them the respect they deserve. The combo of Brand and Kaman is unbelievable, Clippers are alot better than an average team.


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> 27 points, 16 assists, and 5 rebs, while leading a late comeback in the 4th and pulling out the win for the Suns in game 1 of the WCF.
> 
> What do you think about that ahabdyallaD19?


Great performance, by a great player, and a deserving win.

Not deserving of 2 MVPs...


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## 23isback (Mar 15, 2006)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> Great performance, by a great player, and a deserving win.
> 
> Not deserving of 2 MVPs...


DUDE. [strike] STFU. [/strike]

This guy has carried this team once again to the Finals in a very tough conference. 

Remember people said the Suns were going to be sub .500 after Amare went down? Look at what Nash has done. He's allowed the Suns to get the 2nd seed. He's helped them become the highest scoring team in the NBA. He's allowed the Suns to be the best 3-pt shooting team in the NBA.

You can say its D'Antoni's coaching, but without Nash running the show, his system wouldn't work as unbelievably as it has. His ability to see the open court and find open teammates is unrivaled. His passing skills are arguably the best in the world. 

You said he wouldn't lead them past the Clips. Nash exploded in Game 7. They won. 

He's even lead the Suns to a 1-0 lead against the Mavericks.

Can't ask for much more from a guard.

Nash is the MVP. He deserved it.


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## the microwave (May 7, 2006)

23isback said:


> DUDE. STFU.
> 
> This guy has carried this team once again to the Finals in a very tough conference.
> 
> ...


not saying i agree with everything but since shaddy's been owned about 10 times already in this thread and he still continues to post responses it's only fitting the fun continues...









can someone change the title to the shaddy's owned thread?


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## edabomb (Feb 12, 2005)

The question is, if the Suns make the NBA Finals will it devalue the finals???


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> Great performance, by a great player, and a deserving win.
> 
> Not deserving of 2 MVPs...


how can u guys bash him for this post??

personally i think he's right, this statement right here actually sums up the general feeling (from what i can tell) of the people that agree with the thread title... no one is denying that nash is an awesome player, and is the main reason for the suns success... but the sheer amount of credit he gets when other players on his team have been working and playing their ***es off, and the season the awards he was given over other players who i personally think deserved it more to myself, shady and obviously a few others make him overrated...why cant u guys just accept there is another opinion on the subject, other than 'nash is the greatest if u dont think so u suck'


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

GoDWade said:


> blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah


Sorry, what I said still holds. Maybe you should quote where I said that Nash is still a fantastic player. There's a difference between not believing Nash is the most valuable player in the league and being a "hater."


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## Nashaholic (Mar 30, 2005)

edabomb said:


> The question is, if the Suns make the NBA Finals will it devalue the finals???


WHEN the suns make the finals, this year or next, there won't be any arguments to make against Nash anymore. 

You have to admit that if he led the suns to a championship you wouldn't have a whole lot to say anymore. This year and for the next couple years theres no reason to believe they wont be atleast very close.


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Avalanche said:


> how can u guys bash him for this post??
> 
> personally i think he's right, this statement right here actually sums up the general feeling (from what i can tell) of the people that agree with the thread title... no one is denying that nash is an awesome player, and is the main reason for the suns success... but the sheer amount of credit he gets when other players on his team have been working and playing their ***es off, and the season the awards he was given over other players who i personally think deserved it more to myself, shady and obviously a few others make him overrated...why cant u guys just accept there is another opinion on the subject, other than 'nash is the greatest if u dont think so u suck'


Why do you keep posting in this thread, you have made your point clear.

I had and still have a problem with shabayalla19 because his reasoning for why Nash is overrated is atrocious, and leads me to believe he is a hater.

I'm not talking about you so you can quit defending yourself.


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Sorry, what I said still holds. Maybe you should quote where I said that Nash is still a fantastic player. There's a difference between not believing Nash is the most valuable player in the league and being a "hater."


Anybody who puts Carmelo Anthony in a higher tier than Nash probably has something against him.


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

im not defending myself, i dont think i have a reason too its all good.
its just that i agree with what he said in that last statement, and all he got back was "dude stfu".
all im sayin is people are obviously going to disagree on the matter, if there'es something of substance to add to the thread then everyone should go ahead, i responded to this thread just to respond to that post in particular man.
i think anyone who's actually read what i've put up in here would realise im not a hater, i've just got a different view on this.

peace


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## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

Avalanche said:


> im not defending myself, i dont think i have a reason too its all good.
> its just that i agree with what he said in that last statement, and all he got back was "dude stfu".
> all im sayin is people are obviously going to disagree on the matter, if there'es something of substance to add to the thread then everyone should go ahead, i responded to this thread just to respond to that post in particular man.
> i think anyone who's actually read what i've put up in here would realise im not a hater, i've just got a different view on this.
> ...


Yep. This thread is like the Soup Nazi. Just replace the statement, "No soup for you!" with "STFU, you have something against Nash. You must be a hater!" There you have it. This thread is probably going nowhere with these types of comments and feedback.


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

dannyM said:


> Yep. This thread is like the Soup Nazi. Just replace the statement, "No soup for you!" with "STFU, you have something against Nash. You must be a hater!" There you have it. This thread is probably going nowhere with these types of comments and feedback.


Repped - exactly right


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## BootyKing (Apr 7, 2005)

lol The way this thread has gone its just created more dislike for Nash lol. Im a huge Nash fan and think he is easily the best PG in the league, there are other PG that are very good but Nash is the clear choice. He is definately deserving of 1 MVP but maybe not 2. I just hope people respect him for the player he is and the person he is. Nash never wanted this much publicity. He deserves credit for what he is accomplished. Most of you are not hateing on him, but the ones that are, are completely doign it for what he has accomplished.


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## 604flat_line (May 26, 2006)

dannyM said:


> Yep. This thread is like the Soup Nazi. Just replace the statement, "No soup for you!" with "STFU, you have something against Nash. You must be a hater!" There you have it. This thread is probably going nowhere with these types of comments and feedback.


This is my first post and I haven't read the thread but I do want to say one thing about the topic and your comment. 

In any sport, who is remembered more? Is it the stat-man in the regular season or the guy that hits the big shots in the playoffs and provides crucial leadership for his team? People say all sorts of glowing things about Duncan, Dirk, Kobe, Brand etc. and I do agree with the praise they get. The thing is, in most of this playoffs Nash has been playing hurt but still hitting big shots when it counted, and keeping the confidence instilled in his team at critical moments. I think its safe to say that this suns playoff team is the most clutch and determined team in the western conference. Anyone who doesn't put Steve Nash in elite company is kidding themselves.


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## 604flat_line (May 26, 2006)

BootyKing said:


> lol The way this thread has gone its just created more dislike for Nash lol. Im a huge Nash fan and think he is easily the best PG in the league, there are other PG that are very good but Nash is the clear choice. He is definately deserving of 1 MVP but maybe not 2. I just hope people respect him for the player he is and the person he is. Nash never wanted this much publicity. He deserves credit for what he is accomplished. Most of you are not hateing on him, but the ones that are, are completely doign it for what he has accomplished.



If you follow more sports playoffs then most its easy to see that the most talented and on paper favourite pretty much means nothing. In the playoffs it comes down to straight hunger and will to get the job done no matter what happens. Not every player can be great, but every player can be good if they are hot. The same goes when guys are not as mentally tough and they go cold in big games, its all mental.


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

604flat_line said:


> This is my first post and I haven't read the thread but I do want to say one thing about the topic and your comment.
> 
> In any sport, who is remembered more? Is it the stat-man in the regular season or the guy that hits the big shots in the playoffs and provides crucial leadership for his team? People say all sorts of glowing things about Duncan, Dirk, Kobe, Brand etc. and I do agree with the praise they get. The thing is, in most of this playoffs Nash has been playing hurt but still hitting big shots when it counted, and keeping the confidence instilled in his team at critical moments. I think its safe to say that this suns playoff team is the most clutch and determined team in the western conference. Anyone who doesn't put Steve Nash in elite company is kidding themselves.


MVP's (regular season award) = 2

Championships/finals mvp's = 0

this arguement isnt standing up until nash wins one of the above, i know amare is out which hurt his chances this year, but hes always had good teams around him here in phoenix and in dallas, and hasnt yet pushed them over the top.
again no hate, just had to point that out


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## L (Sep 20, 2005)

Avalanche said:


> MVP's (regular season award) = 2
> 
> *Championships/finals mvp's = * 0
> 
> ...


mvp is for regular season tho. look at kidd, he never won mvp and he never won any of those things above. and i think nash and d'antoini have made this team elite in just two years. is he still deserving two mvps? no, i think this year it should have went to someone else.


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## CaliCool (Nov 5, 2004)

I can't believe that we are disregarding the fact that most of the people that played with Nash has improved. Saying that he has had good teammates is a little overrating them. Nash works really hard to put his team through and I could also see that during these playoffs. 

You can't really blame it on Nash for not "leading" his team through the playoffs during his Mavs stint and now Phoenix.

Remember what happened when he left Dallas, the entire offense was geared towards him on Phoenix (ok, so maybe Amare and Marion are capable of creating for themselves) and it took only a season before it was translated into success.

I still think he is not overrated and that the Nash effect is really something that is shown right now. Without Amare. Without Joe Johnson. Without whoever, as long as the important floor general in Steve Nash is here, he generates wins... Playoff wins and a possible NBA finals entrance.


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## L (Sep 20, 2005)

CaliCool said:


> I can't believe that we are disregarding the fact that most of the people that played with Nash has improved. Saying that he has had good teammates is a little overrating them. Nash works really hard to put his team through and I could also see that during these playoffs.
> 
> You can't really blame it on Nash for not "leading" his team through the playoffs during his Mavs stint and now Phoenix.
> 
> ...


So u believe that he was desrving of two mvps? Just asking. Most people here who say he is overrated(like myself), are either saying this:
He should have gotten the mvp this year.
and
the suns offense really helps a lot for the improvement and stats.



And u cant always lead ur team singlehandedly to the playoffs and win the mvp. (look at kidd, even tho he had unfair competition called Tim Duncan.)

and it took only a season before it was translated into success.
Honestly, i believe Nash was very deserving of the mvp last year since he help bring a 20 win team into a 60 win team. As for the second, im dont think so imo. :cheers:


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## edabomb (Feb 12, 2005)

Nashaholic said:


> WHEN the suns make the finals, this year or next, there won't be any arguments to make against Nash anymore.
> 
> You have to admit that if he led the suns to a championship you wouldn't have a whole lot to say anymore. This year and for the next couple years theres no reason to believe they wont be atleast very close.


Hey I'm with ya, Nash is an excellent player. I dunno if I'd of given him MVP this year, but I can definately accept that he got it.


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## CaliCool (Nov 5, 2004)

All I'm for is disproving that he is overrated. 

I didnt bother reading this 121 page thread but I did scroll through the thoughts of the same page that I replied to. 

I honestly think too that the mvp should have gone to someone else this season but I don't mind him winning it. (I aint a Nash fan) He is up there with LeBron, Kobe, and we ought to remember that Phoenix lost key players (particularly Amare) and still was able to get this many wins. 

I think the NBA shows us another criteria for winning the mvp. Not just stats. And the new criteria ain't nothing to do with being white.


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## 23isback (Mar 15, 2006)

Avalanche said:


> im not defending myself, i dont think i have a reason too its all good.
> its just that i agree with what he said in that last statement, and *all he got back was "dude stfu"*.
> all im sayin is people are obviously going to disagree on the matter, if there'es something of substance to add to the thread then everyone should go ahead, i responded to this thread just to respond to that post in particular man.
> i think anyone who's actually read what i've put up in here would realise im not a hater, i've just got a different view on this.
> ...


not exactly. read the whole post not just the first sentence

kthx.


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## 23isback (Mar 15, 2006)

I was reading some of the posts in this thread. 

One opinion caught my attention. 

Stockton > Nash?

Why? Stockton would be nothing without Malone, and you guys know it.


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## The_Notic (Nov 10, 2005)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> ...And everyone knows it.
> 
> Its a big deal that he made ESPN's top 10 PGs ever!? A two time MVP should EASILY be top 10 in his position. Something like that shouldn't be a surprise and thats whats so pathetic about Nash.
> 
> ...


You Got It!

P.S. Your post is a joke.


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## big0mar (May 19, 2006)

23isback said:


> I was reading some of the posts in this thread.
> 
> One opinion caught my attention.
> 
> ...


i wont even bother considering you arent even old enough to remember most of stockton's career.


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

big0mar said:


> i wont even bother considering you arent even old enough to remember most of stockton's career.


and how old are you? 
stop with the insult, and get on with basketball analysis


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

17 pages of threadstarter pwnage! lol


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## edabomb (Feb 12, 2005)

Phoenix have now made it further than they did last year, when they lost the WCF 4-1.


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

How long have you been waiting to post that?


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## edabomb (Feb 12, 2005)

Shadyballa8D13 said:


> How long have you been waiting to post that?


I'm a Sonics fan, just making an observation :biggrin:


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## onelakerfan (Nov 11, 2004)

Silent Lamb said:


> Yes, Nash is nowhere near the greatest PG of all time. The Big O, Magic, and Stockton will forever hold that honour. Did Nash deserve the MVP this year? As much as Dirk, Kobe, LeBron, and Chauncey? Easily. Whether or not Nash played better than those guys is highly debateable, because there is no universal definition of 'better'. Nash was THE most valuable guy on his team, a team completely rewritten from last years Conference Finalists. No JJ, Quentin Richardson, and no Amare Stoudemire. Dirk had the supporting cast of last year. LeBron had Larry Hughes. Chauncey has the Pistons. And Kobe overachieved. A whole roster overhaul, yet the Suns still remained one of the best teams in the West.
> 
> James Jones is having a career year.
> 
> ...


it is easy to play the game when you don't have to worry about D, just run and shoot the ball. run and shoot. give suns a credit they are winning like that. the league changing the rules helped them as well. teams will figure them out, just like they did with kings and dallas (old)


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## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

onelakerfan said:


> it is easy to play the game when you don't have to worry about D, just run and shoot the ball. run and shoot. give suns a credit they are winning like that. the league changing the rules helped them as well. teams will figure them out, just like they did with kings and dallas (old)


Kings were one shot away from winning a championship. Dallas was simply not as good a team as the current Suns. There wasn't much to figure out, they were just too soft in most years. In all fairness, they lost in the 02-03 WCF to a championship Spurs team in 6 games. No shame in that. Suns are a much more athletic team, with simply a better team than they had back then. 

A heck of a lot of people seems to either forget or choose to ignore that with Kurt the Suns were much better defensively. Plus, Amare is 6'11 and is a good help defender. They have no choice but to play how they do now. They try to play defense, but it's easier said than done when you start all small players plus a bad defensive player in Tim Thomas. It'[s not that they simply don't worry about it, it's that no matter what happens...this team does not have the pieces right now to play good defense.


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## -BasketBallBoy- (Jan 22, 2006)

23isback said:


> I was reading some of the posts in this thread.
> 
> One opinion caught my attention.
> 
> ...


Why would that be? Thats a huge insult. Stockton actually played defense but I think Nash is actually just an average PG and normally PGs are below average defenders.(Not all) Stockton was a great player with or without malone. I seem to recall that he holds the career record of assists and steals. Nash deserved last year's MVP and might have deserved this one if others didn't have career years.(I wonder who? Three people come into my head). I am actually amazed by Nash court vision and shooting prowess.(Wow 50/40/90)


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## edyzbasketball (Nov 16, 2005)

I agree that Nash is only a bit overrated but you have to give the guy some credit. He plays some really tough offense, and he's a great playmaker.

But, with fame comes hate, and the rest we already know it. :biggrin:


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