# Pistons President Joe Dumars plans to resign



## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/453513819474907136


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

A year too late. The Pistons could've saved a lot of money by not bringing in Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings.


----------



## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Probably a lot longer than that late.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

He did draft Drummond and Monroe which were solid moves in my opinion. Could've used that Josh Smith money on some wing players instead of another big.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Hopefully he's remembered for one of the greatest rebuilding jobs ever. Detroit was in absolute shambles when he took over and grant hill left. He built a 50 win team in year two and a championship in year four with using mainly the mle and taking players other teams didn't want.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

He had his moments but it's about damn time. He's been awful since 2005.


----------



## edabomb (Feb 12, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> Hopefully he's remembered for one of the greatest rebuilding jobs ever. Detroit was in absolute shambles when he took over and grant hill left. He built a 50 win team in year two and a championship in year four with using mainly the mle and taking players other teams didn't want.


He had a great run those few years. May have even helped win that championship by drafting Darko and not having to move a player like Carmello into the rotation. That team had great chemistry - bringing in a rookie in that was ready to play minutes (and they would be obliged to play) may have upset that.

In my mind the championship team he built was worth the dross afterwards. And to be fair they were still winning 59 games in 2007/08 - so he maintained them as a contender for a fair while.


----------



## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

About 3-4 years too late honestly


----------



## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

About ten years too late


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Rasheed next in line?


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

ATLien said:


> About ten years too late


So they should have got rid of him the year they won the championship?


----------



## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

R-Star said:


> So they should have got rid of him the year they won the championship?


Been downhill since then.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

ATLien said:


> Been downhill since then.


They were a perennial contender in the East for 4 more seasons. 


*2007-08 59 - 23 1st Central Division Lost East Conf Finals
2006-07 53 - 29 1st Central Division Lost East Conf Finals
2005-06 64 - 18 1st Central Division Lost East Conf Finals
2004-05 54 - 28 1st Central Division Lost NBA Finals*


Perhaps we can admit your 10 years too late comment was a little stupid.


----------



## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

Cool Joe. Tie the franchise's hands for the next three years then just walk away from the mess.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Marcus13 said:


> Cool Joe. Tie the franchise's hands for the next three years then just walk away from the mess.


Well he can't stay. Everyones been calling for his head. 

Someone will be dumb enough to take one of those two contracts. I think Smith can still trick someone into wanting him.


----------



## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

R-Star said:


> They were a perennial contender in the East for 4 more seasons.
> 
> 
> *2007-08 59 - 23 1st Central Division Lost East Conf Finals
> ...


#SMH


----------



## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

R-Star said:


> Well he can't stay. Everyones been calling for his head.
> 
> Someone will be dumb enough to take one of those two contracts. I think Smith can still trick someone into wanting him.


I wonder if the people IN DETROIT are calling for his head though...I know his reputation around the league, but Im not positive they want him gone in the D.

Boston will take Smith at the right cost.

Are we just done with Jennings now? his contract really isn't THAT bad and he's played for Milwaukee and Detroit...Im not convinced he's a lost cause quite yet.


----------



## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Marcus13 said:


> Cool Joe. Tie the franchise's hands for the next three years then just walk away from the mess.


Alot of teams allow coaches or gm's especially ones with very strong ties to the franchise to resign as opposed to publicly firing them. I would be willing to bet this is the case here.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

ATLien said:


> #SMH


Please, elaborate. I'd love to hear your thoughts in 140 characters or less.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Marcus13 said:


> I wonder if the people IN DETROIT are calling for his head though...I know his reputation around the league, but Im not positive they want him gone in the D.
> 
> Boston will take Smith at the right cost.
> 
> Are we just done with Jennings now? his contract really isn't THAT bad and he's played for Milwaukee and Detroit...Im not convinced he's a lost cause quite yet.


I think Jennings is a decent starter who was too hyped and has opened his mouth a few too many times. 

Is 8 mil even that bad for a decent starter? If he could put some effort in on D I think that would look pretty good. I'm just assuming from what I've seen of him in the past hes James Hardening it up on the defensive end.


----------



## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

R-Star said:


> Please, elaborate. I'd love to hear your thoughts in 140 characters or less.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

ATLien said:


>


So you don't want to elaborate how your post was utterly ridiculous? How they should have fired Dumars directly after winning the title, even though they went the the Finals the next year, and conference finals the next 3?

You'd just rather hash tag and post gifs?


What I say in the next part of my post I say in all honesty. Lazy, shit posting like what you're doing now is why forums are going the way of the dinosaur. Its hard to have thought out discussions with other like minded people when idiots jump into threads, say something completely asinine like what you just said, and then resort to single sentence bullshit or gifs when someone calls them out on it.

Put more thought into your posts, or don't ****ing waste everyone else's time. 

Oh by the way, your gif response to this post was just hilarious. No one saw it coming.


----------



## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

R-Star said:


> So you don't want to elaborate how your post was utterly ridiculous? How they should have fired Dumars directly after winning the title, even though they went the the Finals the next year, and conference finals the next 3?
> 
> You'd just rather hash tag and post gifs?
> 
> ...


You took a joke post and made a huge deal about it. Never change.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Marcus13 said:


> Cool Joe. Tie the franchise's hands for the next three years then just walk away from the mess.



If he didn't resign, he was going to be fired.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

ATLien said:


> You took a joke post and made a huge deal about it. Never change.


So when you said "Been downhill since then." you were joking as well?

****, at least be a man and not try to scurry away from your idiotic comments with the classic "I was joking bro." nonsense.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Basel said:


> If he didn't resign, he was going to be fired.


Yep. Seems like the writing has been on the wall all season. 

Someones head had to roll after this train wreck season.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

R-Star said:


> I think Smith can still trick someone into wanting him.


The only real problem with Smith this year was the dumbass GM's decision to force the C/C/PF alignment on the team. He can't pay the SF spot except in short stretches. I think NBA GMs all understand this. Dumars got dealt a winning lotto ticket (two legit NBA centers) and the salary ballast to exploit it (between Charlie Eyebrows and Rodney Stuckey) in a major deal and then did... nothing.


----------



## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Marcus13 said:


> I wonder if the people IN DETROIT are calling for his head though...I know his reputation around the league, but Im not positive they want him gone in the D.


We've wanted him gone for the last few years man, lol. We're appreciative of what he's done for the franchise as both a player and in the front office, but his time has passed.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

R-Star said:


> So you don't want to elaborate how your post was utterly ridiculous? How they should have fired Dumars directly after winning the title, even though they went the the Finals the next year, and conference finals the next 3?
> 
> You'd just rather hash tag and post gifs?
> 
> ...


All these kids care about these days is "hey! can I get my twat to 140 characters or less?"


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

edabomb said:


> He had a great run those few years. May have even helped win that championship by drafting Darko and not having to move a player like Carmello into the rotation. That team had great chemistry - bringing in a rookie in that was ready to play minutes (and they would be obliged to play) may have upset that.
> 
> In my mind the championship team he built was worth the dross afterwards. And to be fair they were still winning 59 games in 2007/08 - so he maintained them as a contender for a fair while.


In hindsight Bosh might of been a perfect fit. He wasn't expected to start as a 19 year old skinny big man, and would of been behind Sheed, Ben and Okur year 1 like Darko. By year two Okur left he takes on the McDyess role... then they still let Ben walk whenever he did to Chicago just in time for Bosh's max extension to kick in and a new franchise player role.


----------



## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

Time has shown that Joe Dumars' assembly of the core of the 2000s championship core was more out of luck than skill. Going into those deals, no one thought these deals for role players would have worked out the way they did for Detroit:

* Trading Grant Hill for Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins in a free agent sign-and-trade deal in 2000 when Hill was considered the best small forward in the NBA at the time.

* Trading Jerry Stackhouse for Rip Hamilton when Stackhouse was considered by observers as the player with better upside.

* Signed Chauncey Billups -- who was playing for his fifth team in six seasons -- as a free agent after languishing in Boston, Toronto and Denver earlier in his career.

* Drafting Tayshaun Prince, who was known as an offensive spot-up player in Kentucky and barely played as a rookie. Prince was inserted into the lineup in the 2003 playoffs as a desperate attempt to slow down Orlando's Tracy McGrady and he unexpectedly showed standout defensive abilities. 

The success of those unexpected moves seemingly empowered Dumars to think he was the smartest person in the room. Drafting Darko Milicic in 2003 best exemplifies that approach, as well as his questionable free agent moves (Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva in 2009; signing Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings in 2013) and later trading Billups for a declining Allen Iverson. It also was evident in his coaching decisions, such as firing Rick Carlisle and Flip Saunders after successful seasons.

The only major transaction Dumars made that was a stroke of genius, in my opinion, was acquiring Rasheed Wallace from Atlanta in a three-way trade with Boston. But even that was precipitated by Atlanta having no intention of keeping Wallace (Atlanta acquired Wallace from Portland in an effort to clean house and Wallace played one game there) and the Pistons needing to make a move after it was apparent drafting Milicic was not working out, according to plan.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Najee said:


> Time has shown that Joe Dumars' assembly of the core of the 2000s championship core was more out of luck than skill. Going into those deals, no one thought these deals for role players would have worked out the way they did for Detroit:
> 
> * Trading Grant Hill for Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins in a free agent sign-and-trade deal in 2000 when Hill was considered the best small forward in the NBA at the time.
> 
> ...




If GMs just went with majority thinking all the time they wouldn't have a job. Owners would just launch a poll "Stackhouse or Hamilton?" online and make decisions that way.

Hill was gone either way, Dumars brilliantly salvaged a useful role player and a young guy of a great season with upside out of it.

Stackhouse was already entering his 7th season and was a player that didn't seem like he could be a complementary piece.

Billups was signed with the MLE after being mainly a victim of multiple trades and injuries. He had a great year filling in for Terrell Brandon.

Prince was a late first rounder.. using your logic every non-lotery pick that becomes a good starter is luck and not shrewd evaluation and forecasting on a GMs part.

Your use of the word luck is badly misplaced.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I think Joe Dumars did more bad than good when he was in Detroit but to say that most things that he did right was luck is overstating things. Grant Hill was leaving and had injury concerns that other teams may or may not have known to the full extent at the time make the Ben Wallace trade a smart move by Dumars imo. To say that Prince's emergence was out of desperation and luck is unfair to Dumars. Dumars was smart enough to draft Prince but even if Prince didn't play a major role in that playoff series, you can't say that he wouldn't emerge as a good player the next season.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

If they won a title in the last 10 years, how could he have done more bad then good?

Especially winning a title during a time that a select number of teams seem to be the only ones alternating as champion every year.

Dumars could trade Drummond for Amare before leaving and he'd still technically be remembered as a bright spot for that organization. 

Ask fans of the Pacers, Raptors, Bucks, Cavs, Bobcats, Grizzlies, etc, etc, etc if they'd trade 5-6 years of mediocrity for winning a title. Its an easy trade off.


----------



## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

We have to do something as a sports culture about the completely opposite terms "resign" and "re-sign" being essentially the same. I can't deal with it.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

RollWithEm said:


> We have to do something as a sports culture about the completely opposite terms "resign" and "re-sign" being essentially the same. I can't deal with it.


I used to always say resign when talking about someone re-signing. Then when I finally picked up on it I quit, and now I give everyone who does it a hard time like they're an idiot. 

"Ha ha, yea. Lebron really should _resign_ with the Heat this offseason. Ha hahahaha!"

Ohhhhh man, I'm such a tool.


----------



## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

So Dumars took over a franchise that was coming off getting swept by the Mashburn/Majerle/Mourning Heat in three brutal games. His superstar player (Hill) promptly decided to move to Orlando. The most promising under-25 player on the roster was Mikki freaking Moore. 

Between hiring Rick Carlisle and all the other moves mentioned in this thread, he brought this once proud franchise back to relevancy and eventually got them their third NBA Championship. He's been playing with house money for a long time. It just so happens that the money has finally run out. No hard feelings. Good time to part ways.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

RollWithEm said:


> So Dumars took over a franchise that was coming off getting swept by the Mashburn/Majerle/Mourning Heat in three brutal games. His superstar player (Hill) promptly decided to move to Orlando. The most promising under-25 player on the roster was Mikki freaking Moore.
> 
> Between hiring Rick Carlisle and all the other moves mentioned in this thread, he brought this once proud franchise back to relevancy and eventually got them their third NBA Championship. He's been playing with house money for a long time. It just so happens that the money has finally run out. No hard feelings. Good time to part ways.


Exactly. Guy's been making some extremely questionable moves, ending with Jennings and Smith which were at least to me clearly hail marys to save his job. But he also turned the franchise around and won them a championship and put them in contention for 3 years after. At the end of the day I don't think anyone should be bitter towards him. Or saying something asinine like "10 years too late! Its been downhill every since the championship."

If the Pacers somehow won the championship this year, made the finals next, and the ECF's the two following years, followed by 5 years of bad signings and coaching staff decisions, I'd walk up to Larry Bird and shake his hand in 2024. 

People like to pretend being a GM is easy. It's not. There's isn't a great signing to go around to every team every off season. Not every draft pick is going to pan out. At the end of the day if you have a championship on your body of work, I'd say you did a hell of a job.


----------



## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Dumars definitely screwed it up for the past few years, but you have to remember that he's following higher orders. The Pistons are different from other organizations in that they also own their venue and that makes ownership far more intent upon getting butts in seats. Fighting for the eighth seed made a lot more sense for them financially than it does for other teams.

Dumars was doing what he was told to do, when he should have tried to start over again he kept trying to win with middling players because that was what ownership wanted and expected of him.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Diable said:


> Dumars definitely screwed it up for the past few years, but you have to remember that he's following higher orders. The Pistons are different from other organizations in that they also own their venue and that makes ownership far more intent upon getting butts in seats. Fighting for the eighth seed made a lot more sense for them financially than it does for other teams.
> 
> Dumars was doing what he was told to do, when he should have tried to start over again he kept trying to win with middling players because that was what ownership wanted and expected of him.


Fair point.


----------



## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

Diable said:


> Dumars definitely screwed it up for the past few years, but you have to remember that he's following higher orders. The Pistons are different from other organizations in that they also own their venue and that makes ownership far more intent upon getting butts in seats. Fighting for the eighth seed made a lot more sense for them financially than it does for other teams.
> 
> Dumars was doing what he was told to do, when he should have tried to start over again he kept trying to win with middling players because that was what ownership wanted and expected of him.


That relationship between team and venue leads to bad moves all around the league. Older owners who want to see the team win before they die is another issue for franchises' longterm hopes.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Diable said:


> Dumars definitely screwed it up for the past few years, but you have to remember that he's following higher orders. The Pistons are different from other organizations in that they also own their venue and that makes ownership far more intent upon getting butts in seats. Fighting for the eighth seed made a lot more sense for them financially than it does for other teams.
> 
> Dumars was doing what he was told to do, when he should have tried to start over again he kept trying to win with middling players because that was what ownership wanted and expected of him.


This is a cop out. Charlie Villaneuva netted the Pistons maybe 6 extra wins through the duration of his contract then if they signed a d leaguer every year in his place. Allen Iverson for Chauncey Billups decreased the win total. His first two lottery picks were Rodney White and Darko, etc. 

Like I said, his tenure was overall successful, but he's made mistakes for sure.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Najee said:


> The only major transaction Dumars made that was a stroke of genius, in my opinion, was acquiring Rasheed Wallace from Atlanta in a three-way trade with Boston. But even that was precipitated by Atlanta having no intention of keeping Wallace (Atlanta acquired Wallace from Portland in an effort to clean house and Wallace played one game there) and the Pistons needing to make a move after it was apparent drafting Milicic was not working out, according to plan.


Actually the reason for the Wallace deal was that they didn't have Bird rights to Okur and they wanted to clear salary in 2005 to re-sign him because they thought he was their C of the future. They essentially traded for Wallace because he was an expiring deal. But 'Sheed worked out so well that they (wisely) bid Okur adieu and kept Wallace instead.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Diable said:


> Dumars definitely screwed it up for the past few years, but you have to remember that he's following higher orders. The Pistons are different from other organizations in that they also own their venue and that makes ownership far more intent upon getting butts in seats. Fighting for the eighth seed made a lot more sense for them financially than it does for other teams.
> 
> Dumars was doing what he was told to do, when he should have tried to start over again he kept trying to win with middling players because that was what ownership wanted and expected of him.


Yeah, and I really don't see anything wrong with the approach. I think his huge mistake was buying the Darko hype and ignoring the attitude problems, because as Jamel noted, had they just taken Bosh that night their timeline would have been a lot longer. They certainly would have had a real chance to beat the 2008 Celtics with Bosh starting at the 4. 

His other big mistake was betting the house on Villanueva and Gordon, but that is probably a function of his general reliance on free agency over trade as a means of stocking his teams. He had the chance to deal for Rondo when Rondo was still good and the cost was only the rapidly declining Rip Hamilton and future oft-injured roleplayer Rodney Stuckey. But he refused to take the risk. And maybe that's the real weakness, he seems a little risk averse. He took the consensus #2 guy in 2003, wouldn't risk trading Stuckey, etc.. The one time it worked out for him was when they made the deal to get Chucky Atkins off the books to lower payroll enough to re-sign Okur, only the expiring contract they acquired came attached to a much better player.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

Jamel Irief said:


> This is a cop out. Charlie Villaneuva netted the Pistons maybe 6 extra wins through the duration of his contract then if they signed a d leaguer every year in his place. Allen Iverson for Chauncey Billups decreased the win total. His first two lottery picks were Rodney White and Darko, etc.
> 
> Like I said, his tenure was overall successful, but he's made mistakes for sure.


His tenure wasnt successful. He had two or three season's where he had success, but overall his tenure was a failure. From botching the #2 overall pick, to not being able to draft quality players despite being in the lottery multiple times. 

He failed when it came to contract's. Case in point 55 million to spend and your offseason ends with Charlie V and Ben Gordon (which he gave a 1st round pick to unload to Charlotte). Hell look at the past off-season spending a boat load on Smith and Jennings and yet another off-season the Pistons are heading to the lottery once again.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Pablo5 said:


> His tenure wasnt successful. He had two or three season's where he had success, but overall his tenure was a failure. From botching the #2 overall pick, to not being able to draft quality players despite being in the lottery multiple times.


He won a title and presided over a contender for around a half-decade. His overall tenure was absolutely successful, he just botched, and botched badly, his last five or so years.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

Bogg said:


> He won a title and presided over a contender for around a half-decade. His overall tenure was absolutely successful, he just botched, and botched badly, his last five or so years.


The Pistons won in 04. They contended in 05, and after they declined every season despite being in a weak eastern conference. I live here, and i see the crowds of 5k being in attendence to watch this trash. 

He had a good team, but he failed to make the team better. He held on to players like Prince, Rip and Sheed for way to long. Stuckey is trash, Brandon Knight was a flop, Darko is Darko, Cleeves works for a local Pistons affiliate, and i could go on about his first round poop's, but i rather not....


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> His tenure wasnt successful. He had two or three season's where he had success, but overall his tenure was a failure. From botching the #2 overall pick, to not being able to draft quality players despite being in the lottery multiple times.
> 
> He failed when it came to contract's. Case in point 55 million to spend and your offseason ends with Charlie V and Ben Gordon (which he gave a 1st round pick to unload to Charlotte). Hell look at the past off-season spending a boat load on Smith and Jennings and yet another off-season the Pistons are heading to the lottery once again.


It much be easy to decide what successful is when you just cheer for whatever team is winning.


What a chump... (you. I'm calling you the chump, you bandwagon joke)


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Pablo5 said:


> The Pistons won in 04. They contended in 05, *and after they declined every season despite being in a weak eastern conference.* I live here, and i see the crowds of 5k being in attendence to watch this trash.
> 
> He had a good team, but he failed to make the team better. He held on to players like Prince, Rip and Sheed for way to long. Stuckey is trash, Brandon Knight was a flop, Darko is Darko, Cleeves works for a local Pistons affiliate, and i could go on about his first round poop's, but i rather not....


They made it to the conference finals each of the three years after that. Sorry, you consistently make it to the conference finals year after year, you're contending whether or not you win a second title. Brush it off as a two year-fluke if you want, but you'd be flat-out wrong.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

R-Star said:


> It much be easy to decide what successful is when you just cheer for whatever team is winning.
> 
> 
> What a chump... (you. I'm calling you the chump, you bandwagon joke)


I have been a Spurs fan since i left Texas in 89. You dont know me punk. I have NEVER been a Pistons fan. I have been to every Spurs game when they play the Pistons for the last 12 years (that includes the 05 Finals). The Spurs will also be my team of choice even after Duncan and Pop.....

I watch all Nba teams just because im a fan of the Nba.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

Bogg said:


> They made it to the conference finals each of the three years after that. Sorry, you consistently make it to the conference finals year after year, you're contending whether or not you win a second title. Brush it off as a two year-fluke if you want, but you'd be flat-out wrong.


6 ECF's and *1* championship to talk about. 8 head coaches in 14 year span. Several 1st round blunders. Real talk even the Piston heads have been calling for his firing for about 4 solid years now...


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

Not to mention he has locked the hands of the next GM by signing players like Smith and Jennnings.


----------



## l0st1 (Jul 2, 2010)

6 ECF and 1 Championship is a pretty successful tenure. And honestly the Jennings and Smith signings weren't great but they were understandable. They are both immensely talented players they just aren't a good fit for that team. Now Charlie V and Gordon were just immensely stupid signings.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> I have been a Spurs fan since i left Texas in 89. You dont know me punk. I have NEVER been a Pistons fan. I have been to every Spurs game when they play the Pistons for the last 12 years (that includes the 05 Finals). The Spurs will also be my team of choice even after Duncan and Pop.....
> 
> I watch all Nba teams just because im a fan of the Nba.


Yet you spend more time posting about Lebron and the Heat.

How adorable.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> Not to mention he has locked the hands of the next GM by signing players like Smith and Jennnings.


Jennings only has 2 years left. And honestly, 8 mil a year for Jennings? That's not even bad. 

Smith? Yea, I don't like that deal. But I've never been a Josh Smith fan.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

R-Star said:


> Jennings only has 2 years left. And honestly, 8 mil a year for Jennings? That's not even bad.
> 
> Smith? Yea, I don't like that deal. But I've never been a Josh Smith fan.


Jennings at 8 mil per is still a bad deal. It's reason the terrible ass Bucks wanted nothing to do with him. Let me give you some history about Dumars and his horrible drafts. Jennings is only on the roster because he fcked up last season draft.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

R-Star said:


> Yet you spend more time posting about Lebron and the Heat.
> 
> How adorable.


I post about LBJ only because he's the best player in the Nba by about 3 miles and ive always been a fan of his.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> Jennings at 8 mil per is still a bad deal. It's reason the terrible ass Bucks wanted nothing to do with him. Let me give you some history about Dumars and his horrible drafts. Jennings is only on the roster because he fcked up last season draft.


The Bucks didn't want Jennings at 8 mil a year because it was a bad deal....except they paid OJ Mayo the exact same contract.


Know what you're talking about next time you try to give a history lesson ok?


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> I post about LBJ only because he's the best player in the Nba by about 3 miles.


Odd, seeing as he won't get MVP this year.

Seems like you post about him because you're a band wagon fan.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Pablo5 said:


> 6 ECF's and *1* championship to talk about. 8 head coaches in 14 year span. Several 1st round blunders. Real talk even the Piston heads have been calling for his firing for about 4 solid years now...


6 Conference Finals and a title is a fantastic run! It's better than the Pierce/KG Celtics managed and went for way longer than Kobe/Pau did at a high level. Now we're not even acknowledging won titles, it's if you aren't a multi-ring dynasty you're a failure?


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> I have been a Spurs fan since i left Texas in 89. You dont know me punk. I have NEVER been a Pistons fan. I have been to every Spurs game when they play the Pistons for the last 12 years (that includes the 05 Finals). The Spurs will also be my team of choice even after Duncan and Pop.....
> 
> I watch all Nba teams just because im a fan of the Nba.


I thought you were a heat fan? Or am I confusing you with Pyrex?


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

Bogg said:


> 6 Conference Finals and a title is a fantastic run! It's better than the Pierce/KG Celtics managed and went for way longer than Kobe/Pau did at a high level. Now we're not even acknowledging won titles, it's if you aren't a multi-ring dynasty you're a failure?


Not at all. 8 head coaches multiple lottery picks says differently.


----------



## AirJay (Aug 5, 2005)

I think the reason the opinions in this thread (and of the public) are so divided is because of the wasted potential of the latter half of Dumars' tenure.

Yes, 6 ECFs and 1 title is nothing to sneeze at. That's much better than the "New Big Three" in Boston did and Danny Ainge is considered a genius for that.

On the other hand, after brilliantly constructing a contender he botched a couple of moves that would have made the Pistons the absolute cream of the crop team in the transitional period between the end of the Kobe/Shaq Lakers and the beginning of the next Lakers run. Imagine if he had used the 2nd pick in the 2003 draft better? He also stuck with an aging core in Detroit too long when it was clear that they needed an extra boost to fend off the Wade Heat, the Lebron Cavs, and the KG Celtics.

Fact is the Pistons did succeed in his tenure but it could have been much more.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

AirJay said:


> He also stuck with an aging core in Detroit too long when it was clear that they needed an extra boost to fend off the Wade Heat, the Lebron Cavs, and the KG Celtics.


I don't know about that, they won 59 games as late as 2008 and then he salary-dumped Billups in the Iverson deal and let Rasheed walk. The problem was that instead of fully taking the team apart and rebuilding properly he spent his cap on a core of Rodney Stuckey, Rip Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, Charlie V, and Ben Gordon in pursuit of an 8-seed. 

As an aside, anybody who wants to completely divorce draft order from a team's performance should know that Dumars free-agency binges are exactly what they're saying every bad team should do.


----------



## AirJay (Aug 5, 2005)

Bogg said:


> I don't know about that, they won 59 games as late as 2008 and then he salary-dumped Billups in the Iverson deal and let Rasheed walk. The problem was that instead of fully taking the team apart and rebuilding properly he spent his cap on a core of Rodney Stuckey, Rip Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, Charlie V, and Ben Gordon in pursuit of an 8-seed.
> 
> As an aside, anybody who wants to completely divorce draft order from a team's performance should know that Dumars free-agency binges are exactly what they're saying every bad team should do.


They were a strong regular season team in the east ever year, but in a league of rising young stars they lacked the extra zip to get over the top. You can even argue that in 2005 they were fortunate because the Pacers imploded and the Heat fell prey to injuries. Hindsight is 20/20 (see all the people criticizing the Darko pick and saying they should have taken Bosh: NOBODY was considering Bosh over Darko then) but he should have sold high on a guy like Prince or Hamilton.

It's irrelevant now, though. Will be interesting to see what the rebuilding process looks like.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

AirJay said:


> They were a strong regular season team in the east ever year, but in a league of rising young stars they lacked the extra zip to get over the top. You can even argue that in 2005 they were fortunate because the Pacers imploded and the Heat fell prey to injuries. Hindsight is 20/20 (see all the people criticizing the Darko pick and saying they should have taken Bosh: NOBODY was considering Bosh over Darko then) but he should have sold high on a guy like Prince or Hamilton.


What deals were materializing in 2005-06 that would have given you better win-now players than Rip or Tayshaun? Teams very rarely trade superstars for one or two high-level starters.


----------



## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

Jamel Irief said:


> Hill was gone either way, Dumars brilliantly salvaged a useful role player and a young guy of a great season with upside out of it.


It is fair to say that unless Detroit purposely did not disclose the extent of Grant Hill's ankle issues, there was no way anyone would have thought Detroit got the better end of that deal. No one certainly would have imagined that Ben Wallace would have become a four-time Defensive Player of the Year based on one season as a part-time player in Orlando.



Jamel Irief said:


> Stackhouse was already entering his 7th season and was a player that didn't seem like he could be a complementary piece.


Except Jerry Stackhouse was the leading scorer (and pretty much the only consistent scoring threat) on a playoff team while Richard Hamilton was a spot-up shooter on some Washington teams that were lottery fixtures.



Jamel Irief said:


> Billups was signed with the MLE after being mainly a victim of multiple trades and injuries. He had a great year filling in for Terrell Brandon.


Chauncey Billups was a reserve in Minnesota until Terrell Brandon went out for the count and he put up the same numbers as an on-the-skids Brandon when he did start with slightly less efficiency. What Billups did in Detroit far outstripped what he did previously in his career at that point.



Jamel Irief said:


> Prince was a late first rounder.. using your logic every non-lotery pick that becomes a good starter is luck and not shrewd evaluation and forecasting on a GMs part.


Tayshaun Prince was known as a scorer coming out of Kentucky, and he sat on the bench most of his rookie season. When Detroit ran out of options to stop Orlando's Tracy McGrady in the 2003 first round of the playoffs, Prince got playing time as a last-ditch effort and surprised people in his ability to hinder McGrady's driving ability. 

No scouts looked at Prince as a defensive specialist when he came into the NBA and his ability to defend wing players (not to mention the ability to hit an outside shot) in the playoffs led to, among other things, a factor in not selecting Carmelo Anthony in 2003 draft.

It's all considered luck because no one in his right mind would have thought this team of role player types would have turned out the way they did when combined in Detroit, which is how Joe Dumars started thinking he was the smartest person in the room.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Najee said:


> It is fair to say that unless Detroit purposely did not disclose the extent of Grant Hill's ankle issues, there was no way anyone would have thought Detroit got the better end of that deal. No one certainly would have imagined that Ben Wallace would have become a four-time Defensive Player of the Year based on one season as a part-time player in Orlando.


Trading hill was not the shrewd move, he was already gone. Salvaging Wallace and Atkins was. What did Cleveland get for Lebron? A second rounder?



> Except Jerry Stackhouse was the leading scorer (and pretty much the only consistent scoring threat) on a playoff team while Richard Hamilton was a spot-up shooter on some Washington teams that were lottery fixtures.


Exactly! stack was good when he was the leading scorer but had little future as a complimentary piece. That's why Dallas brought him off the bench, so that he could be the man in the second unit. 


> Chauncey Billups was a reserve in Minnesota until Terrell Brandon went out for the count and he put up the same numbers as an on-the-skids Brandon when he did start with slightly less efficiency. What Billups did in Detroit far outstripped what he did previously in his career at that point.


Chauncey's play in Minnesota easily warranted his contract. This was a time when guys like jarred Jeffries, othella Harrington and Howard eisley were getting long mle deals. Did he envision a multiyear allstar? Probably not. His starting point guard? Certainly.


> Tayshaun Prince was known as a scorer coming out of Kentucky, and he sat on the bench most of his rookie season. When Detroit ran out of options to stop Orlando's Tracy McGrady in the 2003 first round of the playoffs, Prince got playing time as a last-ditch effort and surprised people in his ability to hinder McGrady's driving ability.
> 
> No scouts looked at Prince as a defensive specialist when he came into the NBA and his ability to defend wing players (not to mention the ability to hit an outside shot) in the playoffs led to, among other things, a factor in not selecting Carmelo Anthony in 2003 draft.




Whats your point? Not playing prince until then falls on the coach.



> It's all considered luck because no one in his right mind would have thought this team of role player types would have turned out the way they did when combined in Detroit, which is how Joe Dumars started thinking he was the smartest person in the room.


I think you're exaggerating. Again billups main struggles prior to Detroit were injuries and frequent trades. He had tons of ability. Hamilton was already an efficient 18 points per game jump shooter. Ben Wallace had some insane rebounds per minute rate prior to breaking his foot in Orlando. 

Using your logic ANYTIME anybody plays above their forecasted abilities it's luck. Second round draft picks Gilbert arenas and boozer? Not great picks, just luck.


----------



## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

Jamel Irief said:


> Trading hill was not the shrewd move, he was already gone. Salvaging Wallace and Atkins was. What did Cleveland get for Lebron? A second rounder?


Different circumstances, particularly since the deals were done in vastly different collective bargaining agreement eras. Not to mention the argument is that no one (including Joe Dumars) would imagined a sign-and-trade deal of an all-NBA player for basically an afterthought player would have turned out the way it did in Detroit's favor. 

No one foresaw Grant Hill's career being derailed by season-ending (and at one point, life-threatening) injuries.

No one foresaw Ben Wallace would turn into a four-time Defensive Player of the Year.

The debate was not whether Hill was leaving Detroit (he signed with Orlando and was sent there via a sign and trade), but if anyone thought that deal was purposely designed with the idea Wallace would become the player he did and Hill's career went down the way it did, then that is a lie. That's fortuitous in favor of Detroit.



Jamel Irief said:


> Exactly! stack was good when he was the leading scorer but had little future as a complimentary piece. That's why Dallas brought him off the bench, so that he could be the man in the second unit.


But except at the time, Jerry Stackhouse was the primary piece and all the other players on the Pistons were complementary pieces at best. The prevailing thought was whether Richard Hamilton could be the primary piece on an NBA team by essentially replacing Stackhouse.



Jamel Irief said:


> Chauncey's play in Minnesota easily warranted his contract. This was a time when guys like jarred Jeffries, othella Harrington and Howard eisley were getting long mle deals. Did he envision a multiyear allstar? Probably not. His starting point guard? Certainly.


Pretty much, Detroit expected Chauncey Billups to be another version of starter Chucky Atkins, who in 2001-02 had similar numbers to Billups' final season in Minnesota. Billups exceeded what Atkins provided by outperforming what he had shown in the NBA at that time.

Once again, the same theme here: Billups, like Wallace and Hamilton, developed into a better player than what was originally envisioned and developed uncommon chemistry with the rest of other unlikely standouts. In Billups' case, his main struggles were the result of a steep learning curve coming out of college too early. His final year in Minnesota showed Billups finally seemed to turn the corner, but there was nothing to suggest he would become the player he did.

Of the four guys (including Tayshaun Prince), Hamilton was the only one who had a proven NBA track record and even then he was playing on a perimeter-heavy lottery team with old man Michael Jordan. To act like Dumars had this clairvoyant master plan where he would trade former all-stars for role players and the role players would outplay the pieces he traded and become this title contender is giving him too much credit. It was great fortune things turned out the way they did for Detroit.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

AirJay said:


> see all the people criticizing the Darko pick and saying they should have taken Bosh: NOBODY was considering Bosh over Darko then.


Untrue, by all reports Bosh was #2 on Ainge's draft board and he was attempting to trade into the high lottery to grab him.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> Untrue, by all reports Bosh was #2 on Ainge's draft board and he was attempting to trade into the high lottery to grab him.


Meh. There was a lot of Darko hype going into that draft. Everything outside of the #1 pick was all over the place from what I remember. 

http://www.nbadraft.net/mocks/2003_nba_mock_draft.html

Man I loved me some Lampe going into that draft. I'm probably the worst judge of draft talent on this website.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

R-Star said:


> Meh. There was a lot of Darko hype going into that draft. Everything outside of the #1 pick was all over the place from what I remember.
> 
> http://www.nbadraft.net/mocks/2003_nba_mock_draft.html
> 
> Man I loved me some Lampe going into that draft. I'm probably the worst judge of draft talent on this website.


No, I remember all the hype. I was just objecting to the statement that no one would ever have taken Bosh over him, when in fact Ainge was desperately attempting to trade up to grab Bosh.


----------



## Mrs. Thang (Apr 14, 2011)

How can you seriously argue that nearly all of the moves that lead to the 2004 championship flew against popular wisdom and were therefore lucky? That's a ridiculous logic stretch to make when the far more obvious explanation is Dumars was simply smarter than popular wisdom.

Dumars is like De Niro at the end of Jackie Brown. He's a bumbling shell of his former self, but he used to be beautiful.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> No, I remember all the hype. I was just objecting to the statement that no one would ever have taken Bosh over him, when in fact Ainge was desperately attempting to trade up to grab Bosh.


That's fine, Darko was the favorite at #2 though. I don't think any GM thought he'd flop as hard as he did. People were Euro crazy at the time.


----------



## scdn (Mar 31, 2011)

People were hoping to draft the next Nowitzki around that time.


----------



## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

RollWithEm said:


> So Dumars took over a franchise that was coming off getting swept by the Mashburn/Majerle/Mourning Heat in three brutal games. His superstar player (Hill) promptly decided to move to Orlando. The most promising under-25 player on the roster was Mikki freaking Moore.
> 
> Between hiring Rick Carlisle and all the other moves mentioned in this thread, he brought this once proud franchise back to relevancy and eventually got them their third NBA Championship. He's been playing with house money for a long time. It just so happens that the money has finally run out. No hard feelings. Good time to part ways.


Pretty much sums it up.



scdn said:


> People were hoping to draft the next Nowitzki around that time.


And if Darkos skillset worked out he would've been a great complement to Ben Wallace. Not defending it, but that was a big reason the Pistons went ahead with that pick.


----------



## 29380 (Feb 23, 2009)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/455468376194691072


----------



## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

Ender said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/455468376194691072


Good for everyone involved. No losers, here.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

It's funny see people try to explain where Joe went wrong. Here locally everyone knows he shouldve been fired in 2010. This is an example of how bad of a job he has done...

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10711364/2014-nba-front-office-rankings-top-executives

DEAD LAST! Even when Milwaukee and Philly have tanked for multple years! He has failed besides the 6 ECF's and the ship run. He has blown several lottery picks. Name one other GM that has had 25m plus in two different off-seasons. Over 50m on 4 players and none of them have made impact on the Pistons. Say what you want, but the local Piston heads disagree with you by a cold mile..... 

I wont even bring Darko into the mix, because everyone knows having Melo,Wade, or even Bosh wouldnt have helped the Pistons long term.....


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> It's funny see people try to explain where Joe went wrong. Here locally everyone knows he shouldve been fired in 2010. This is an example of how bad of a job he has done...
> 
> http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10711364/2014-nba-front-office-rankings-top-executives
> 
> ...


The sentence I quoted itself its so laughably stupid I don't know where to start. 

And I'm sorry, did you just insinuate you live in Detroit? You, the die hard 1980's-present Spurs fan who watches every game, that is unless there's a Miami game on, then you watch that, but you aren't a bandwagon fan or anything.... you're from Detroit?


:laugh:

****, this is just too good.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

R-Star said:


> The sentence I quoted itself its so laughably stupid I don't know where to start.
> 
> And I'm sorry, did you just insinuate you live in Detroit? You, the die hard 1980's-present Spurs fan who watches every game, that is unless there's a Miami game on, then you watch that, but you aren't a bandwagon fan or anything.... you're from Detroit?
> 
> ...


I should expect this from an redacted for national insecurity reasons. I was *BORN* and raised in *TEXAS* and moved to Detroit. I have been an Spurs fan despite living here. I have been to 95% of the Detroit/Spurs games since 98. I was at Game 5 when Horry shut the lights out on the Pistons. I was in attendance when the Pistons blew the socks off the Spurs on Xmas day. I will still be a fan even when Pop, and the crew finally walk away.

Regarding the Heat. Im not of fan of the Heat. I never said I was. LBJ is the best player in the NBA by 3 miles. Anyone that can argue that is either naive or a dumb ass hater.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> I should expect this from an idiot loser Pacer fan. I was *BORN* and raised in *TEXAS* and moved to Detroit. I have been an Spurs fan despite living here. I have been to 95% of the Detroit/Spurs games since 98. I was at Game 5 when Horry shut the lights out on the Pistons. I was in attendance when the Pistons blew the socks off the Spurs on Xmas day. I will still be a fan even when Pop, and the crew finally walk away.
> 
> Regarding the Heat. Im not of fan of the Heat. I never said I was. LBJ is the best player in the NBA by 3 miles. Anyone that can argue that is either naive or a dumb ass hater.


For someone who is supposedly an adult, your grammar comes off as a mid teen jock rider. Dumb ass hater? Who argued Lebron isn't the best? And even if someone did, he isn't winning the MVP this year, is he? So is the majority of voters "dumb ass haters"? as you so eloquently put it?

And sorry, but you aren't a Spurs fan. Both the Spurs and Heat had games at the same time a few days ago, and there you were, posting about the Heat game. That pretty clearly shows you aren't all that much of a Spurs diehard champ.

But hey, maybe I'm just and "idiot loser Pacers fan". :laugh:


Man, you Lebron fantasy role players are the absolute worst.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

R-Star said:


> For someone who is supposedly an adult, your grammar comes off as a mid teen jock rider. Dumb ass hater? Who argued Lebron isn't the best? And even if someone did, he isn't winning the MVP this year, is he? So is the majority of voters "dumb ass haters"? as you so eloquently put it?
> 
> And sorry, but you aren't a Spurs fan. Both the Spurs and Heat had games at the same time a few days ago, and there you were, posting about the Heat game. That pretty clearly shows you aren't all that much of a Spurs diehard champ.
> 
> ...


So i guess Malone was more valuable than MJ, huh? :yesyesyes: Youre talking about the Suns game where Parker was out there with our 3rd string. Duncan was in his sunday best on the bench, down by 20 and still manage to win?

Nah, i rather watch the Pacers commit 100 turnovers and watch you post a drunken crybaby post about how bad the Pacers suck.....


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> So i guess Malone was more valuable than MJ, huh? :yesyesyes: Youre talking about the Suns game where Parker was out there with our 3rd string. Duncan was in his sunday best on the bench, down by 20 and still manage to win?
> 
> Nah, i rather watch the Pacer commit 100 turnovers and watch you post a drunken crybaby post about how bad the Pacers suck.....


Feel free to quote that drunken cry baby post. I've been at work for over 2 weeks. Perhaps I should be like you and only post on Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, Mike Beasley, or football.

Maybe I should link your last Spurs post you made...... oh wait, you have not once in your entire post history posted on the Spurs forum, or even in a Spurs game day thread about the Spurs.


Oh wow, look who doesn't want to continue this discussion. Sorry that you decided to leave friend.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Well that's odd Pablo. Its shown you read my post, but you aren't replying.


Weird....


----------



## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

You can see when someone reads your post ?


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Trent said:


> You can see when someone reads your post ?


It shows the last activity a poster has made on their user page. 

His last activity showed him in this thread, after I had posted my posts. Ipso-facto, he read my post.


----------



## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

ah ok. Makes sense. I already knew you could do that but I thought you had like a secret quicker way to knowing when someone saw your post lol


----------



## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

R-Star said:


> It shows the last activity a poster has made on their user page.
> 
> His last activity showed him in this thread, after I had posted my posts. Ipso-facto, he read my post.





Trent said:


> ah ok. Makes sense. I already knew you could do that but I thought you had like a secret quicker way to knowing when someone saw your post lol


I love when R-Star and the goat have these little sharing moments. It's like a BBF mentorship program.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

RollWithEm said:


> I love when R-Star and the goat have these little sharing moments. It's like a BBF mentorship program.


I don't know how I feel about that statement.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

R-Star said:


> Feel free to quote that drunken cry baby post. I've been at work for over 2 weeks. Perhaps I should be like you and only post on Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, Mike Beasley, or football.
> 
> Maybe I should link your last Spurs post you made...... oh wait, you have not once in your entire post history posted on the Spurs forum, or even in a Spurs game day thread about the Spurs.
> 
> ...


Its actually comical to see you look through my post history like an bitter ex girlfriend, but it's cool. Fact is I post here because I post about the Spurs all day on a different board. Should i give you a link so you can check their too?

Back to the topic at hand. Not one station here has entertained a discussion on Dumars for more than a segment. Piston heads wanted him gone dating back to 09/10. In a year the 26'ers lost 26 in a row, and the Bucks won 16 or so games. You have Joe D being ranked DEAD LAST on ESPN's front office rankings. Explain that?


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Pablo5 said:


> Back to the topic at hand. Not one station here has entertained a discussion on Dumars for more than a segment. Piston heads wanted him gone dating back to 09/10. In a year the 26'ers lost 26 in a row, and the Bucks won 16 or so games. You have Joe D being ranked DEAD LAST on ESPN's front office rankings. Explain that?


I don't think anyone's arguing that Dumars should still be around, or even that he should have stuck around as long as he did. It's about calling his term in Detroit a failure when he was the architect of only their second championship core ever and had them competing for titles for a half-decade plus. If Danny Ainge blows the current Celtics rebuild and we're in the same situation four years from now, I'd never call him a failure as a GM. Worst he can do at this point is just "mixed bag" status.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> Its actually comical to see you look through my post history like an bitter ex girlfriend, but it's cool. Fact is I post here because I post about the Spurs all day on a different board. Should i give you a link so you can check their too?
> 
> Back to the topic at hand. Not one station here has entertained a discussion on Dumars for more than a segment. Piston heads wanted him gone dating back to 09/10. In a year the 26'ers lost 26 in a row, and the Bucks won 16 or so games. You have Joe D being ranked DEAD LAST on ESPN's front office rankings. Explain that?


Search functions are ridiculously easy, friend. "Pablo5 Spurs". Pretty easy. The only time the Spurs have been brought up by you is when you've made multiple Lebron, Wade, or oddly Mike Beasley posts and start insisting you aren't a Heat fan.

So, you post in Beasley threads, but only because you're a Lebron fan huh?

That's about is insanely ridiculous as saying "All he ever had was 6 ECF runs and a title." He was there for what, 13 years? And you don't understand how that makes your comments not just funny, but downright stupid?


Look buddy, you've basically been outed as a fraud. I mean, we all appreciate your "Oh yea? Well I post about them on another board. A secret board..... so **** you!", but come on. You're a bandwagon Heat fan. You'll be less pathetic as a poster the day you actually come out and admit it. 


Keep jock riding. I think it makes it a little more sad that you're old and you still jump from winning team to winning team like a child learning the game.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

Bogg said:


> I don't think anyone's arguing that Dumars should still be around, or even that he should have stuck around as long as he did. *It's about calling his term in Detroit a failure when he was the architect of only their second championship core ever and had them competing for titles for a half-decade plus*. If Danny Ainge blows the current Celtics rebuild and we're in the same situation four years from now, I'd never call him a failure as a GM. Worst he can do at this point is just "mixed bag" status.


Youre talking about 6 or 7 of the 14 year tenure. Even with those seasons he has a sub .500 record as the GM/President. 6 top ten picks and Drummond is the only one worth talking about in his 14 year span. I could go on and on.....


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

R-Star said:


> Search functions are ridiculously easy, friend. "Pablo5 Spurs". Pretty easy. The only time the Spurs have been brought up by you is when you've made multiple Lebron, Wade, or oddly Mike Beasley posts and start insisting you aren't a Heat fan.
> 
> So, you post in Beasley threads, but only because you're a Lebron fan huh?
> 
> ...


First, the EC is a joke. It's sad to see teams with 45 wins not make the playoffs in the WC. Look at the EC, just up until friday the Knicks was still in the race for the 8th seed. The EC is a laughable joke. 

To your Heat comments. I wont even entertain them. I will respect the board and not fall into a debate with a committed loser.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> Youre talking about 6 or 7 of the 14 year tenure. Even with those seasons he has a sub .500 record as the GM/President. 6 top ten picks and Drummond is the only one worth talking about in his 14 year span. I could go on and on.....


Cool. Teams go through rebuilding periods. Was the rebuild after the championship run botched? Sure. Did they still win a title and contender for years afterwards? Sure did. 

5 different teams have won since Detroit. 5 since Detroit in 2004. And you're going to sit there and act like its no big deal.

I guess this all comes down to actual fans of the game who have cheered for teams through the good and the bad, and bandwagon fans like yourself who don't understand championships don't just come to every team every couple of years.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> First, the EC is a joke. It's sad to see teams with 45 wins not make the playoffs in the WC. Look at the EC, just up until friday the Knicks was still in the race for the 8th seed. The EC is a laughable joke.
> 
> To your Heat comments. I wont even entertain them. I will respect the board and not fall into a debate with a committed loser.


You won't touch my debate because you're a bandwagon chump. It's clear to anyone at this point. What I hate sir, is liars. "Oh I'm a huge Spurs fan! Since the 80's!" Really? You haven't posted on the Spurs once.... "I do on another site!" 
Jesus. You're kidding me. Why guys like you refuse to admit to jumping from championship team to championship team is beyond me. But they lying is pathetic. Accept yourself for the fair weather fan you are and quit making excuses. 

And the East can be great or as terrible as you say, they've won 5 of the last 10 championships, which completely decimates your intended point.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

R-Star said:


> Cool. Teams go through rebuilding periods. Was the rebuild after the championship run botched? Sure. Did they still win a title and contender for years afterwards? Sure did.
> 
> 5 different teams have won since Detroit. 5 since Detroit in 2004. And you're going to sit there and act like its no big deal.
> 
> I guess this all comes down to actual fans of the game who have cheered for teams through the good and the bad, and bandwagon fans like yourself who don't understand championships don't just come to every team every couple of years.


That's funny because I always called the Piston fans fare-weather. It helps me when they average less than 9k fans in the Palace since 09 or so. I have been getting the Spurs/Piston tickets for cheap. If JoeD didnt walk away he wouldve been fired!!!!


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> That's funny because I always called the Piston fans fare-weather. It helps me when they average less than 9k fans in the Palace since 09 or so. I have been getting the Spurs/Piston tickets for cheap. If JoeD didnt walk away he wouldve been fired!!!!


Could be because your city filed for bankruptcy and I could get a mansion there for pennies on the dollar, or just buy a whole block of houses for like 10 grand, but hey, that probably has nothing to do with it.

GO SPURS!


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

R-Star said:


> You won't touch my debate because you're a bandwagon chump. It's clear to anyone at this point. What I hate sir, is liars. "Oh I'm a huge Spurs fan! Since the 80's!" Really? You haven't posted on the Spurs once.... "I do on another site!"
> Jesus. You're kidding me. Why guys like you refuse to admit to jumping from championship team to championship team is beyond me. But they lying is pathetic. Accept yourself for the fair weather fan you are and quit making excuses.
> 
> And the East can be great or as terrible as you say, they've won 5 of the last 10 championships, which completely decimates your intended point.


and in those 10 years how many under .500 teams has made the playoffs?


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

R-Star said:


> Could be because your city filed for bankruptcy and I could get a mansion there for pennies on the dollar, or just buy a whole block of houses for like 10 grand, but hey, that probably has nothing to do with it.
> 
> GO SPURS!


Yeah that's a good excuse


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> and in those 10 years how many under .500 teams has made the playoffs?


What? I'm sorry, but what are you even trying to talk about now?

I understand you don't like the discussion we're having because you're steadily getting your argument fed back to you, but where exactly are you trying to steer us?

The East has some weaker teams so years of fighting at the top of the conference and winning a title don't count? Oh ok. Fair enough.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> Yeah that's a good excuse


Well no, its actually an exact reason for the poor turnout. What year did you say it started? 2009? Wow, that's weird....


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Pablo5 said:


> Youre talking about 6 or 7 of the 14 year tenure. *Even with those seasons he has a sub .500 record as the GM/President. *6 top ten picks and Drummond is the only one worth talking about in his 14 year span. I could go on and on.....


This is just objectively wrong. His record as an executive is above .500 in the regular season, and I'm going to assume it's above .500 in the post-season as well given how long they were contending for. Feel free to show otherwise if I'm mistaken. 

I don't see how the draft picks, other than 2003, really play into things. Everyone acknowledges he blew the rebuild. Nobody's saying the things he did from 2009 until now, other than drafting Drummond and Monroe, were worth keeping him on. However, he essentially knocked it out of the park from 2000 to 2007 or 2008ish with the exception of the 2003 draft. But go ahead, tell me more about Kentavious Caldwell-Pope negating everything.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Bogg said:


> This is just objectively wrong. His record as an executive is above .500 in the regular season, and I'm going to assume it's above .500 in the post-season as well given how long they were contending for. Feel free to show otherwise if I'm mistaken.
> 
> I don't see how the draft picks, other than 2003, really play into things. Everyone acknowledges he blew the rebuild. Nobody's saying the things he did from 2009 until now, other than drafting Drummond and Monroe, were worth keeping him on. However, he essentially knocked it out of the park from 2000 to 2007 or 2008ish with the exception of the 2003 draft. But go ahead, tell me more about Kentavious Caldwell-Pope negating everything.


Exactly. 

Not one poster came in saying Dumars should still have his job. Most of the posters around here have been expecting this to happen for a could years now. But for the Pablos and ATLiens of the world who come in say his whole legacy is a failure is a joke are ridiculous. 

I'd trade the entire Pacers team for D-League scrubs to have a championship and multiple ECF trips over the last 10 years. 

A championship outside the usual suspect teams is quite a feat that many fans just don't understand.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

You can't name 5 GMs currently in the NBA that have had more wins than Dumars. Pfund, Kupchak, Buford (arguably, since Pop was the GM until like 2005) and.... Presti?


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

R-Star said:


> A championship outside the usual suspect teams is quite a feat that many fans just don't understand.


That's the thing - he took over a borderline playoff team whose best player was leaving tracks getting out of town and by his fourth season had built a championship team with an entirely different core of players than he inherited without being gifted a star in the lottery. That's _insanely_ hard. 

It's like if someone took over Atlanta this summer, was forced to immediately trade Al Horford, and then won 50+ games every season from 2016-2023 and brought home a title without being gifted a franchise player.


----------



## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

Bogg said:


> That's the thing - he took over a borderline playoff team whose best player was leaving tracks getting out of town and by his fourth season had built a championship team with an entirely different core of players than he inherited without being gifted a star in the lottery. That's _insanely_ hard.
> 
> It's like if someone took over Atlanta this summer, was forced to immediately trade Al Horford, and then won 50+ games every season from 2016-2023 and brought home a title without being gifted a franchise player.


Excellent comparison. I guess it's pretty similar to the post-Dwight rebuilding process going on in Orlando right now. If that Magic team wins a title next year, I would most certainly be impressed.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Pablo5 said:


> Youre talking about 6 or 7 of the 14 year tenure. Even with those seasons he has a sub .500 record as the GM/President. 6 top ten picks and Drummond is the only one worth talking about in his 14 year span. I could go on and on.....


First off Greg Monroe is also pretty good, he's just not capable of being a PF. Which is where they have to play him since Andre Drummond is an even better center. As for KCP, while he was technically a top ten pick, he was a top ten pick in a generationally bad draft. A draft so bad that a one man honky disaster zone is going to make the All Rookie team, and deserve the selection.

And while he certainly played it safe and ****ed up his one shot at gold in 2003, he also drafted a lot of extremely useful players outside the top 20 where you're normally lucky to find guys that outlive their rookie deals. So he's not nearly as bad a drafter as you make him out to be.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

R-Star said:


> Well no, its actually an exact reason for the poor turnout. What year did you say it started? 2009? Wow, that's weird....


No 2009 is just another period. Hell I can remember being in college and going to Taco Bell and there would be free tickets on the counter and that was in 2002.

If you really knew what you were talking about. You would know that the Palace sits in one of the richest counties in America. So I doubt that the economy had anything to do with the crowds being bad.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

E.H. Munro said:


> First off Greg Monroe is also pretty good, he's just not capable of being a PF. Which is where they have to play him since Andre Drummond is an even better center. As for KCP, while he was technically a top ten pick, he was a top ten pick in a generationally bad draft. A draft so bad that a one man honky disaster zone is going to make the All Rookie team, and deserve the selection.
> 
> And while he certainly played it safe and ****ed up his one shot at gold in 2003, he also drafted a lot of extremely useful players outside the top 20 where you're normally lucky to find guys that outlive their rookie deals. So he's not nearly as bad a drafter as you make him out to be.


Monroe shouldn't have been drafted by JoeD. He needed a PG then and guess what he still needs one now. Not to mention Paul George was selected 3 picks later. KCP is trash! NO believes he should even be here. There was another name that should've been called that played college ball right here in Michigan.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

Bogg said:


> That's the thing - he took over a borderline playoff team whose best player was leaving tracks getting out of town and by his fourth season had built a championship team with an entirely different core of players than he inherited without being gifted a star in the lottery. That's _insanely_ hard.
> 
> It's like if someone took over Atlanta this summer, was forced to immediately trade Al Horford, and then won 50+ games every season from 2016-2023 and brought home a title without being gifted a franchise player.


He wasn't forced into trading Hill. Hill requested a trade and i don't blame him for doing so. Besides Horford at C or PF would never be a good as Hill was in his prime before injury.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> No 2009 is just another period. Hell I can remember being in college and going to Taco Bell and there would be free tickets on the counter and that was in 2002.
> 
> If you really knew what you were talking about. You would know that the Palace sits in one of the richest counties in America. So I doubt that the economy had anything to do with the crowds being bad.


You can't even punctuate a sentence properly.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> Monroe shouldn't have been drafted by JoeD. He needed a PG then and guess what he still needs one now. Not to mention Paul George was selected 3 picks later. KCP is trash! NO believes he should even be here. There was another name that should've been called that played college ball right here in Michigan.


Should every GM that passed on Paul George be fired?

Wait... didn't you make multiple posts in another thread about how Paul George sucks?

But..... if he sucks then how can you.....


You just make this far too easy.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Pablo5 said:


> He wasn't forced into trading Hill. *Hill requested a trade and i don't blame him for doing so*. Besides Horford at C or PF would never be a good as Hill was in his prime before injury.


Again - blatantly false. Hill was an unrestricted free agent that summer and was going to sign in Orlando either way. Detroit's options were to lose him for nothing or try to salvage what they could. Dumars turned it into a sign-and-trade with the Pistons getting two presumed throw-ins so that Hill could receive a bit more money on his contract. It just so happens that one of those throw-ins turned into the dominant defensive center of the era between Shaq getting fat and Dwight Howard fully arriving.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

R-Star said:


> Should every GM that passed on Paul George be fired?
> 
> Wait... didn't you make multiple posts in another thread about how Paul George sucks?
> 
> ...


He's not worth 18m per year. That's saying he sucks? It just highlights how bad of a drafter he is. 2004 draft has killed the Pistons and rightfully so


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Bogg said:


> Again - blatantly false. Hill was an unrestricted free agent that summer and was going to sign in Orlando either way. Detroit's options were to lose him for nothing or try to salvage what they could. Dumars turned it into a sign-and-trade with the Pistons getting two presumed throw-ins so that Hill could receive a bit more money on his contract. It just so happens that one of those throw-ins turned into the dominant defensive center of the era between Shaq getting fat and Dwight Howard fully arriving.


Um, sorry buddy, but I'm going to side with the guy in the know. The guy who's hanging out at the local Taco Bell in Detroit and knows what all the people are saying...... even though he hates the team and is a fan of the Spurs, even if he refuses to talk about them and only posts about Mike Beasley and the Heat.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> He's not worth 18m per year. That's saying he sucks? It just highlights how bad of a drafter he is. 2004 draft has killed the Pistons and rightfully so


Whats the name of that Spurs forum you post on all the time?


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

Bogg said:


> Again - blatantly false. Hill was an unrestricted free agent that summer and was going to sign in Orlando either way. Detroit's options were to lose him for nothing or try to salvage what they could. Dumars turned it into a sign-and-trade with the Pistons getting two presumed throw-ins so that Hill could receive a bit more money on his contract. It just so happens that one of those throw-ins turned into the dominant defensive center of the era between Shaq getting fat and Dwight Howard fully arriving.


Hill agreed to a sign and trade so the Pistons wouldn't get boned. His wife wanted to be somewhere to kick start her career. The Pistons ruined his career with the handling of his injury and not being able to get him help when he desperately needed it.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

R-Star said:


> Whats the name of that Spurs forum you post on all the time?


It would be disrespectful for me to mention another forum while being on one you idiot. I would be glad to PM it to you


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> It would be disrespectful for me to mention another forum while being on one you idiot. I would be glad to PM it to you


Sure. Go ahead and PM it with your username as well.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

R-Star said:


> Sure. Go ahead and PM it with your username as well.


LMAO, damn man you thirsty man. i don't know now man. Next you will be secretly asking for my number


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Pablo5 said:


> Monroe shouldn't have been drafted by JoeD. He needed a PG then and guess what he still needs one now. Not to mention Paul George was selected 3 picks later. KCP is trash! NO believes he should even be here. There was another name that should've been called that played college ball right here in Michigan.


Who cares what Detroit "needed". This isn't the NFL, you don't draft for need. He drafted a quality NBA center, that wasn't his mistake. His mistake was in not exploiting his quality center after drafting an even better one. I hate to tell you this, but PGs are a dime a dozen these days. So, no, you _never_ decline to draft a good player because you "need a PG". Christ, the Kings drafted a legit starting PG at #60.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> LMAO, damn man you thirsty man. i don't know now man. Next you will be secretly asking for my number


Your number? So I can what, call you?

And if you don't answer, do I get to hear this?

"YEEaaaaa Boy! You've reached Lebron James biggest super fan! I'm too busy watching mix tapes right now, but leave a message and I'll hollar back at you son!"


But honestly though, big surprise this mythical Spurs forum you post on doesn't exist. Why you Lebron idiots think you can just run around making up stories is beyond me. There's one of you assholes every year. Last time it was Thailand, now its a secret Spurs forum. I wonder if Lebron hates the fact he attracts the nut jobs of NBA fandom.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Pablo5 said:


> Hill agreed to a sign and trade so the Pistons wouldn't get boned. His wife wanted to be somewhere to kick start her career. The Pistons ruined his career with the handling of his injury and not being able to get him help when he desperately needed it.


So you agree that Hill didn't request a trade, but was leaving either way, thus forcing Dumars to trade him?


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

HAHA


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

A random profile page on Spurstalk. Wowie Zowie. That proves a lot.


----------



## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

R-Star said:


> A random profile page on Spurstalk. Wowie Zowie. That proves a lot.


You didnt notice the green online icon, huh? Or course you wouldnt have seen the member since....... 

enough said move on toad!


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Pablo5 said:


> You didnt notice the green online icon, huh? Or course you wouldnt have seen the member since.......
> 
> enough said move on toad!


Toad?

If there were sort of animal hierarchy here, and I'm not say there is, but hey, lets say there was.....???......

If there was, you would be a tick, latching on from team to team until they fall from the top. Or you'd be some gross, ugly slug or something. Leaving a slimy trail as you crawl from team to team, pretending that their success somehow warrants actual success in your otherwise slug like, pathetic life.

Me, I'd be a lion or something. A manticore? Those aren't real. The name just came up in my head so I googled it. Hmmmm..... maybe like a wise old monkey like from Disney movies. One that all the other animals are like "Hey, that guy knows his shit. I bet hes right, I bet that ****ing guy doesn't even like the Spurs." Like something like that.


Yep.


----------

