# The Knicks Should Think About Trading For Nick Collison



## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

I've soured on Frye's defensive play a long time ago. Unfortunately for him, Curry's strong play as of late has led me to believe that he should be the one of the two who should be traded. Even though Frye might not fit into what we can or should do with Curry, he's still a hell of a commodity in a trade because of his natural abilities and skill as a big man. I suggest we use him to acquire the all-star backcourt player we need next to Curry. Doing so does leave us light at the four though and would need a replacement. 

I think Nick Collison could be a perfect fit for us at the 4. He does all the things Frye does on the offensive end but also rebounds the ball better and is regarded as the better defender. He is also a very underrated passer which is critical for entry passes into Curry. I think he could be had for Nate Robinson, Kelvin Cato and a 2nd round pick. The deal only makes sense though if we go after that young all-star prospect in our back-court though since we're deep at the 4 with Frye on the team.


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## kconn61686 (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: Nick Collison A Knick*

nick collison has a poison pill ruling on his deal, making it virtually impossible for him to be dealt. even if he could, why would seattle ship a productive big man making little money for an undersized 2-guard who needs to learn the NBA game, a guy that they would immediately waive in cato, and a 2nd rounder?


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Nick Collison A Knick*



kconn61686 said:


> nick collison has a poison pill ruling on his deal, making it virtually impossible for him to be dealt. even if he could, why would seattle ship a productive big man making little money for an undersized 2-guard who needs to learn the NBA game, a guy that they would immediately waive in cato, and a 2nd rounder?


That "productive" big man had so much confidence from the Sonics organization that they dealt for Chris Wilcox who they tendered a lucrative, multi-year deal to too play ahead of him. When you mention the fact that they've invested so much time into developing and expanding their depth at the 5, it appears as though Collison is nothing more than an insurance for an injury prone front court. That's not to say the Sonics are beyond looking for another center. They have been rumored on several occassions to be seeking the service of a veteran center for temporary service. Sounds like Kelvin Cato fits that bill and Nate can add some firepower that the Sonics lack outside Allen and Lewis while freeing themselves of the financial commitment they have for Collison in the future. The question is, why wouldn't they do it especially since they could recieve a PR jump for importing a Seattle native?


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

*Re: Nick Collison A Knick*

Collison brings to the table pretty much the same things as David Lee.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Dumb move...*

So you've soured on Frye because he isn't a stopper......big deal. He is worth a ton more than Collison. Frye's offensive game is improving all the time and is already leaps and bounds better than collison's. If you don't think so, you're not watching much. Frye has just as much , or better, low post game, and there is simply no comparison as a jump shooter. Collison is the better board man, but Frye can also play the 5 decently. Comparing Collison to Lee is just absurd, other than they are both tall white dudes. Lee is far better athletically, ambidextrous, better ball handler, and better passer, not to mention eons better on the boards, especially the offensive glass. Big men always take longer to develop in the nba unless you have had great coaching and competition. Frye has had great coaching in college and in the league, but the completion has been less than demanding in college...as it usually is. He's getting better. I would trade him.......but not for garbage players. BTW, what's all this depth at the 4? Surely you can't mean Jeffries? With Frye gone, how do we secure the young back court star you say we need (I agree with the need).


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## kconn61686 (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: Nick Collison A Knick*



> That "productive" big man had so much confidence from the Sonics organization that they dealt for Chris Wilcox who they tendered a lucrative, multi-year deal to too play ahead of him. When you mention the fact that they've invested so much time into developing and expanding their depth at the 5, it appears as though Collison is nothing more than an insurance for an injury prone front court. That's not to say the Sonics are beyond looking for another center. They have been rumored on several occassions to be seeking the service of a veteran center for temporary service. Sounds like Kelvin Cato fits that bill and Nate can add some firepower that the Sonics lack outside Allen and Lewis while freeing themselves of the financial commitment they have for Collison in the future. The question is, why wouldn't they do it especially since they could recieve a PR jump for importing a Seattle native?


no team is trading a big for a small, especially when that big is a good player with soaring value. PR value doesn't bode that well for a 15 minute a game guy- not like he's Adam Morrison, the biggest fan favorite ever over there. the trade is still near impossible to make due to contract rulings. in addition, why would a team like seattle take on a 15th man in cato when they can call up a developing player from the D-League and maybe find a match. cato was waived in training camp, no team saw value in him- the team he is currently on doesnt have a spot for him. also, the sonics main priority is a wing shooter, similar to what they lost in vlad radmanovic


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Dumb move...*



alphaorange said:


> So you've soured on Frye because he isn't a stopper......big deal. He is worth a ton more than Collison. Frye's offensive game is improving all the time and is already leaps and bounds better than collison's. If you don't think so, you're not watching much. Frye has just as much , or better, low post game, and there is simply no comparison as a jump shooter. Collison is the better board man, but Frye can also play the 5 decently. Comparing Collison to Lee is just absurd, other than they are both tall white dudes. Lee is far better athletically, ambidextrous, better ball handler, and better passer, not to mention eons better on the boards, especially the offensive glass. Big men always take longer to develop in the nba unless you have had great coaching and competition. Frye has had great coaching in college and in the league, but the completion has been less than demanding in college...as it usually is. He's getting better. I would trade him.......but not for garbage players. BTW, what's all this depth at the 4? Surely you can't mean Jeffries? With Frye gone, how do we secure the young back court star you say we need (I agree with the need).



I never suggested trading Frye for Collison. I suggested using Frye as bait to secure the young back court star we both agree that we need. The next step would be to plug the hole left by Frye and I suggested bringing in Nick Collison as a replacement. He may not be a Frye on the offensive end but he can certainly be an adequate substitute that fits in with Curry. That is the point I'm trying to make. 

As far as Frye being leaps and bounds better than Collison, I think your wrong. Frye is obviously the better prospect because of his age, physical gifts and offensive skill but that doesn't mean much when currently comparing the players. As we've seen recently when given the minutes, Collison is a very solid player. Over the course of the past 3 games he has put up:

29 points on 12-18 shooting, 21 rebounds, 4 assists, 3 steals and 1 block

21 points on 10-14 shooting, 9 rebounds, 2 assists and 1 steal

25 points on 8-10 shooting, 13 rebounds, 1 steal and 2 blocks


...couple those kind of performances with solid defense and I think you have a guy that shouldn't be underestimated. Honestly, I did not think he had those performances in him. When I thought up of targeting him as a replacement for Frye, he had not gone on such a tear. I think that with each game, it worsens our chances of ever having him as a realistic replacement after moving Frye.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Nick Collison A Knick*



zagsfan20 said:


> Collison brings to the table pretty much the same things as David Lee.



Double the pleasure, double the fun. The way Lee effects our team so positively on the court, I wouldn't mind adding a clone of his so that we can get that play all through the game. There are distinct differences between the two however that can not be ignored and make each of these players unique. Collison is the better perimeter player on offense and the better defender. Lee is the better hustle player and rebounder.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Nick Collison A Knick*



kconn61686 said:


> no team is trading a big for a small, especially when that big is a good player with soaring value. PR value doesn't bode that well for a 15 minute a game guy- not like he's Adam Morrison, the biggest fan favorite ever over there. the trade is still near impossible to make due to contract rulings. in addition, why would a team like seattle take on a 15th man in cato when they can call up a developing player from the D-League and maybe find a match. cato was waived in training camp, no team saw value in him- the team he is currently on doesnt have a spot for him. also, the sonics main priority is a wing shooter, similar to what they lost in vlad radmanovic


The notion that a team would not trade a big for a small is an old and outdated philosophy. There has been a huge culture shift where the emphasis now resides on small ball and the play of perimeter players. This has leveled off the value of big men to small's considerably in my opinion.


I have to admit though that when I came out with this thread, Collison had not started to go on such a tear. I didn't think he had it in him so you may very well be right. Your reasoning is what is wrong. Your even farther off, assuming the Soncis have no interest in a veteran center. Just yesterday in the Tacoma News Tribune had revisted interest by both Bob Hill and the Sonics front office to add such a player. Dale Davis was brandished as the guy they were rumored to be targeting and at his age, their is not much seperating him from Kelvin. Keep up with the news and what's going on over there.


Question, why would the Sonics bring in a player from the D-League to play the 5 when their looking to send Sene to the D-league? Considering they are short handed at center and still thinking about moving one off the team, I doubt there in the field for another bench warmer.


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## kconn61686 (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: Nick Collison A Knick*



> Question, why would the Sonics bring in a player from the D-League to play the 5 when their looking to send Sene to the D-league? Considering they are short handed at center and still thinking about moving one off the team, I doubt there in the field for another bench warmer.


sene is in the d-league b/c he needs to learn the game. they wouldnt take cato. the d-league idea is that they can get a young player that may have value one-day over a guy like cato who they would cut, and is on the last legs of his career. even loren woods or luke schenscer would make more sense.


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## Seattle2Finals (Nov 1, 2006)

*Re: Nick Collison A Knick*

Nick signed a 3yr $30Mill deal with us this year, he wont be shipped anywhere soon not with him averaging 20 and 10 these last three games.


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: Nick Collison A Knick*



kconn61686 said:


> nick collison has a poison pill ruling on his deal, making it virtually impossible for him to be dealt. even if he could, why would seattle ship a productive big man making little money for an undersized 2-guard who needs to learn the NBA game, a guy that they would immediately waive in cato, and a 2nd rounder?


What use of him would they have if they didn't trade him? Let's face it, the Sonics organization is all about drafting potential big men to develop. The only solid guy that could really have an effect is Danny Fortson, but even he's undependable.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Wow....*

a 3 game tear. Seems like Sweetney had several very nice games as well. Collison may be decent, but he is no Lee. I never suggested that you said trade Frye for Collison, only that you replaced him with collison. Downgrade in talent. Why would anyone do that? As far as Collisons streak, who was it against and what were the circumstances? Need to qualify the numbers so we know what we are really talking about.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Wow....*



alphaorange said:


> a 3 game tear. Seems like Sweetney had several very nice games as well. Collison may be decent, but he is no Lee. I never suggested that you said trade Frye for Collison, only that you replaced him with collison. Downgrade in talent. Why would anyone do that? As far as Collisons streak, who was it against and what were the circumstances? Need to qualify the numbers so we know what we are really talking about.


The difference between Sweetney and Collison is the obvious fact that Collison is a better player that fits into what the league is now becoming. If you look at his numbers, you'll also notice that he instantly becomes a 20 and 10 player when given minutes about 35 minutes or more. I know your probably going to throw some nonsense at me that Sweetney could do the same thing but could he really? The reason he doesn't get any time or is considered to be starting material is because of his piss poor conditioning and being foul prone. He'd keel over with those kind of minutes where a guy like Collison is proven that he is built to last.


...As far as the rest of your post, I really don't see much of a point. Like I said, I'm suggesting Collison as a replacement if we're able to move Frye for a young star in our back-court. I don't know what kind of league you think this is but you generally have to give something or order to recieve something. Your not going to get another Channing Frye and add a star in your back-court. Your going to have to settle and with Curry improving every game, we don't need someone with Frye's scoring potential next to him. We need someone who will compliment Curry better. Besides that, I still do not believe Frye is that much better than Collison and you've yet to give me anything suggesting otherwise aside from opinion. 


P.S., you care to check who Collison put up those numbers against, do it yourself. Maybe the research might help suggest to you see how good a player Collison is.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Nothing to do with Sweetney...*

I only used him as an example of how a player plays over his head for short stretches. Lee averaged 20 boards over a 3 game stint. Is he a 20 board man? Collison is good, but limited. He is a low post guy primarily that would only get in Curry's way. Good player with the right team. BTW, he is getting the minutes at center, so he has the low post all to himself. Bad fit.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Nothing to do with Sweetney...*



alphaorange said:


> I only used him as an example of how a player plays over his head for short stretches. Lee averaged 20 boards over a 3 game stint. Is he a 20 board man? Collison is good, but limited. He is a low post guy primarily that would only get in Curry's way. Good player with the right team. BTW, he is getting the minutes at center, so he has the low post all to himself. Bad fit.


...Collison is playing the 5 position on occassion out of need. At the present time and moment, the Sonics lack any production at center and resulted in this occurring. If I remember correctly, Chris Wilcox operates very much like a center and spends a good portion of his time in the paint. Seems to me that that has not hurt Collison's ability to produce in anyway now has it? Hell, Collison's presence on the floor has not even hurt Wilcox's ability to produce since it's evident he's playing up to his season averages. If he didn't get in Wilcox's way, why Curry who can get gain position much deeper in the paint and therefore create more space for Collison?


As for Sweetney being used as some example to demerit Collison's game, I think it's still a really poor example. As I mentioned, there's a difference between putting up decent numbers in the time your given and maintaining that level of production with extended minutes. Sweetney can not do the later which is exactly why he spends a great deal of his time on the bench of a team in desperate need of a big man with a back to the basket game (his forte). Lee might be a better example but still a poor one. Lee has proven consistently that he can match very high level's when given the minutes. If anything that helps to bolster my arguement for Collison.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*You're right, of course*

That's why Collison's name is on the lips of every GM when talking trade. FYI, Wilcox may be putting up his seasons averages during the "tear", but if he is, he sucks. Plus, whoever is guarding the PFs has been lit up big time. Seems if Collison was the better defender, he would have been guarding the 4s....or maybe he was. Seems like the smart thing to do mwould be to wait and see if Collison is for real. Its taken him time to get there, if so, because he has been a big disappointment up til now. Why not give Frye the same courtesy?


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: You're right, of course*



alphaorange said:


> That's why Collison's name is on the lips of every GM when talking trade. FYI, Wilcox may be putting up his seasons averages during the "tear", but if he is, he sucks. Plus, whoever is guarding the PFs has been lit up big time. Seems if Collison was the better defender, he would have been guarding the 4s....or maybe he was. Seems like the smart thing to do mwould be to wait and see if Collison is for real. Its taken him time to get there, if so, because he has been a big disappointment up til now. Why not give Frye the same courtesy?


Michael Redd, as an example, was not on the lips of every GM when he first showed glimmers of what he can be and he happens to be playing like a top 15 player in the league right now. 

If you honestly believe Chris Wilcox putting up the 12ppg and 8rpg (his season averages) qualifies as sucks, perhaps you should find a hobby your good at. Wilcox generally guards the better offensive player on the opposing team but that largely is because of Wilcox's larger figure and athleticism which sometimes is just as effective as skill on the defensive end. It doesn't downplay either Collison's or Wilcox's defensive ability because the Sonics as a team are piss poor defensively and don't help their case very much.

As far as giving Frye courtesy, I'm not exactly bashing him as a player. He's an impressive player but might not necessarily be the best fit for what we need. That's why I've suggested moving him for a player in the backcourt I've often referred to as an all-star. That obviously should have been some indication to you that I respect his game. Like I said earlier, you got to give in order to get in this league. That's why I feel it is necessary to deal such a talented player for the kind of star we need in the backcourt for the future.


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## repgreek (Jan 16, 2007)

*Re: Nick Collison A Knick*

What is up with the title? Makes ti seem we acquired Collison...


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: Nick Collison A Knick*



repgreek said:


> What is up with the title? Makes ti seem we acquired Collison...


Good point rep, I fix it.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Wilcox*

Had one monster game in the 3 game stretch we are talking about...and that is what I posted...the 3 game stretch. Go back and read the post. Obviously the heat didn't come to play as both Wilcox and Collison had career type nights. His other 2 games were poor. I'll stand by my statement. Under normal circumstances those 2 players will not both have a good game. Frye compliments Curry while Collison will just bring another defender to double. It would be the same for Lee if he wasn't such an adept handler and passer at his size. The fact that he makes great cuts when his guy leaves him is another superior quality. At this point anyone who would replace either of these guys with Collison is nuts. Watch the game last night?

BTW, if you think Redd wasn't talked about before he blew up, you don't follow the game much.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Nick Collison A Knick*



USSKittyHawk said:


> Good point rep, I fix it.


I got to apologize for that one. You guys are right and thanks for the correction.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Wilcox*



alphaorange said:


> Had one monster game in the 3 game stretch we are talking about...and that is what I posted...the 3 game stretch. Go back and read the post. Obviously the heat didn't come to play as both Wilcox and Collison had career type nights. His other 2 games were poor. I'll stand by my statement. Under normal circumstances those 2 players will not both have a good game. Frye compliments Curry while Collison will just bring another defender to double. It would be the same for Lee if he wasn't such an adept handler and passer at his size. The fact that he makes great cuts when his guy leaves him is another superior quality. At this point anyone who would replace either of these guys with Collison is nuts. Watch the game last night?
> 
> BTW, if you think Redd wasn't talked about before he blew up, you don't follow the game much.


Why does big numbers only qualify as a monster game? I agree that Wilcox has not put up the big numbers of last season but part of that I believe is from the fact he has recently been in foul trouble consistently. Another serious issue is the fact that Wilcox has been relied on so heavily, especially recently, that he may just be fanning out. It doesn't mean Collison is limiting his production. For the most part, he has hovered around 13ppg and 8rpg throughout each of the games that he has played with relative minutes.

As for Collison not complimenting Curry, go back to clips of Nick at Kansas. The man regularly hit the college 3, so how or why would he forget to shoot in the NBA? With that aside, Isiah has emphasized Frye playing more in the post which certainly doesn't create space for Curry on the floor, so why would Collison's developed post game impede Curry's progress? Watch Collison play sometime.

Michael Redd hardly recieved very much attention before becoming the Michael Redd he is today. I recall right before the Bucks traded Ray Allen, Mike was a free agent. He only had two suitors that pursed him, the Mavericks and Bucks. The Mavs ended up losing out because they didn't have the their full MLE or refused to offer it to Redd. Later on, after that contract had expired, Mike drew tons of interest around the league but definately not before then. I remember lobbying very hard for Layden to bring the guy in after I saw him perform in that double OT victory by the Knicks against the Bucks. If you can recall, that was the same game Sprewell went for 50 but fell a bit short.
Reread those articles from then.


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