# Tmacs teamate disses kobe bad....



## beautifulkobe

I wonder if kobe heard about this.

http://www.floridatoday.com/!NEWSROOM/sportstoryA32607A.htm


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## SLiM9287

Saying Kobe doesnt play no D is bull and the fact that he said tmac and hill get along perfect is also bull because they havnt been through and actual season together. So to say that is just stupid.


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## Petey

> Nowadays, his teammates and coaches see him finishing first in drills he used to coast through. They see the noticeably bigger arms honed by a summer of weight training. They see him putting in all the extra time after practice, shirtless and sweating through jump rope and jump-shot drills.


I hope so, cause he is so damn talented, his potential is really unlimited.

I am just sorry him and Vince didn't play together for long, and both like they are now, would have been awesome to watch as a bball fan.

-Petey


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## Dragnsmke1

yall read into that too much. Thats just trash talking and hype to excite the fans...TMac:starwars: Kobe


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## jazzy1

Could you call that defense what TMac was doing against Baron Davis in last years playoff ,I guess thats what they call defense. Anyway he's right its just hype Kobe got rings Tmac doesn't a have a darn thing. Should be a good season.


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## Dragnsmke1

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Could you call that defense what TMac was doing against Baron Davis in last years playoff ,I guess thats what they call defense. Anyway he's right its just hype Kobe got rings Tmac doesn't a have a darn thing. Should be a good season.


Dont forget Tmacs back was gone and he was instructed not to play D because his O was more important. Dont hate. If youve ever had a back problem then you would give Mcgrady so much respect for being out there but @ what point are you hurting the team?


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> 
> 
> Dont forget Tmacs back was gone and he was instructed not to play D because his O was more important. Dont hate. If youve ever had a back problem then you would give Mcgrady so much respect for being out there but @ what point are you hurting the team?


Great Point!!!!!


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## gonejay

It dosent really matter if those ORLANDO players are dissin Kobe.
Those guys aint even half the player Kobe is. So i dont know where they are comming from dissin someone whos better than them.

Armstrong who?!?!?!


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## Tom

TMAC IS the MAN! LEARN this. Kobe belongs to him. He is just telling it like it T...I...Z Is. Preache my brutha.:laugh:


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## Wiggum

Are we gonna have a thread for each and every little piece of trash talking...?


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## JGKoblenz

Will this become a Kobe vs TMac thread ???

I can't take it any more!!!


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## SikHandlez24

I have lost all respect for Armstrong.


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## Dragnsmke1

> Originally posted by <b>JGKoblenz</b>!
> Will this become a Kobe vs TMac thread ???
> 
> I can't take it any more!!!


NO! Its a Kobe vs Tmacs teammates thread!


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## c_dog

T-Mac is overhyped, but he's definately got skills. He has to prove that he, too, can play defense, though. Because if he thinks Kobe has no D, then neither does he.


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## Chops

> Originally posted by <b>c_dog</b>!
> T-Mac is overhyped, but he's definately got skills. He has to prove that he, too, can play defense, though. Because if he thinks Kobe has no D, then neither does he.


T-Mac isn't the one who said that...


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## <<<D>>>

It's intresting, how some no name-scrub would make such comments. Tracy wouldn't put Kobe down.....
why would he?? Let em talk, that floor scrub will never be half the player Kobe is and what he's accomplished.
Armstrong???...........who is that??


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## 3PeatComplete

Fo real, why does a guy like Armstrong, who's nothing compared to Kobe, come dissin a player that's better than him? I'd understand if you were commenting on someone who wasn't as good as you but Armstrong and Kobe?? Yo he's just jealous that Kobe gets recognized for his D and Armstrong's got nothin.


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## jazzy1

Drgnsmk keep on making excuses for TMac he said he was the best player in the series then got outplayed by Baron Davis in the first game I guess his back hurt too when Davis stripped him of the ball, man please, TMac never comes through in the playoffs and I'm not talking about the team at the end of games in the clutch great players are paid to make a play to beat somebody and TMac never does, I'll refer to what Horace Grant says about TMac instead of Armstrong, Grant said TMac wasn't on MJ and Kobes level yet he said he doesn't have the day in and day out focus, and Pat Ewing agreed that was in an article of Slam magazine, Grant has played with all three he should know, as for the notion that TMac owns Kobe man please, I'll give players there props when they earn them any player who has won nothing can't honestly be called the best player in the league win something first get outta the 1st round. You could argue to me Shaq ,Kobe, Tim Duncan, even Allen Iverson, but not TMac as the best player in the league. He's great and getting there but not yet. 


You say his back was hurting so why didn't he have someone else guard Davis, because he thought he could do something he couldn't do which was contain Davis ,Yes Tracy was a soldier to keep playing he deserves credit for that but he's either too brave or stupid to think he could guard BD with a bad back.


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Drgnsmk keep on making excuses for TMac he said he was the best player in the series then got outplayed by Baron Davis in the first game I guess his back hurt too when Davis stripped him of the ball, man please, TMac never comes through in the playoffs and I'm not talking about the team at the end of games in the clutch great players are paid to make a play to beat somebody and TMac never does, I'll refer to what Horace Grant says about TMac instead of Armstrong, Grant said TMac wasn't on MJ and Kobes level yet he said he doesn't have the day in and day out focus, and Pat Ewing agreed that was in an article of Slam magazine


I am not an Orlando Magic fan but these are some of the most false statements I have ever heard. 

1. The last 2 seasons Orlando has gotten to the playoffs of the STRENGTH of TMAC

2. In the past 2 playoffs Orlando has won games because of TMAC. No one else. Baron Davis was the MVP of last years series he had 5 or 6 guys to pass to.

3. Horace Grant honestly cant say anything. he rode mj's coatails and MJ had scottie. Kobe has Shaq and TMAC has Mike Miller . These statement are utterly horrible and Patrick Ewing REALLY has no rrom to talk


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## Dragnsmke1

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Drgnsmk keep on making excuses for TMac he said he was the best player in the series then got outplayed by Baron Davis in the first game I guess his back hurt too when Davis stripped him of the ball, man please, TMac never comes through in the playoffs and I'm not talking about the team at the end of games in the clutch great players are paid to make a play to beat somebody and TMac never does, I'll refer to what Horace Grant says about TMac instead of Armstrong, Grant said TMac wasn't on MJ and Kobes level yet he said he doesn't have the day in and day out focus, and Pat Ewing agreed that was in an article of Slam magazine, Grant has played with all three he should know, as for the notion that TMac owns Kobe man please, I'll give players there props when they earn them any player who has won nothing can't honestly be called the best player in the league win something first get outta the 1st round. You could argue to me Shaq ,Kobe, Tim Duncan, even Allen Iverson, but not TMac as the best player in the league. He's great and getting there but not yet.
> 
> 
> You say his back was hurting so why didn't he have someone else guard Davis, because he thought he could do something he couldn't do which was contain Davis ,Yes Tracy was a soldier to keep playing he deserves credit for that but he's either too brave or stupid to think he could guard BD with a bad back.


Actually his back was hurt before the playoffs started.
Actually I wasnt Defending T-mac.
Actually it was T-Mac's Teammate that made these comments
Actually my name is not Dragnsmk Its Dragnsmke1 as in drag and smoke one.
Actually T-Mac is probably the third best player in the game right now and if even you admit he hasnt matured yet then WOW!

They didnt have anyone else gaurd BDavis because whoe else is on the Magic that can hold him? And according to your arguement of never coming thru in the playoffs then KG is the most overrated player in the game but I bet youll be quick to say he doesnt have anyone playing with him.


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## jazzy1

Sorry Drag and smoke since I don't ,don't blame me didn't mean to misrepresent your name, Laugh, first off a comment was used by an NBA player on TMac's team so I used another more heralded player on said team to make my points ranting by us mean very little because we're not in the league so everything we say is really just rambling Grant can talk because he was an allstar and has RINGS as for Ewing he's going to the FAME HALL THAT IS, these guys would have no reason to defame TMac he is their teamate on Grants part and was one on Ewings part so why would they want to diss him they were making obeservations.

As for the notion that Kobe has this this guy has that GRANTED I'm acknowledging your point here TMac LED his team to the playoffs, but at the end of a close game and it comes down to One possesion to make a play YOU only need the greatness of ONE player to make the difference not neccessariy the whole team, if TMac has the ball beating his man MAKE a basket is all I'm saying make a play thats what great players do, I don't suggest that by himself that he could beat a whole team but as an individual at the end he can make ONE play to win a game which he had at least twice in that series that could have made the difference thats why thats an excuse same for KG make a play don't cry make the play TMac said he was better than Davis but Davis made all the plays, TMac said he was better but was outplayed by Davis, Davis does have more players to pass to but what happened when Davis made that game winner that Ultimately didn't count but should have he Made a play thats all I want to see TMac do before I laud at How fantastic he is, please Just make a play by yourself at the end of the game if he's so great and save the excuses. Davis did make a play at end of another game in that series that did count when he stripped TMac of the ball. 

I said TMac was great and I believe he hasn't reached his full potential yet but I'm just trying to add perspective for those who say he's this great this or that without having made a play I know he's a great player but he has a ways to go before he reaches Kobe's Shaq's ,Tim Duncan or Iverson's level of maturity or poise in the clutch. Dragnsmke1 and Beez is that how you spell it, no need for hostility or calling someones point names I don't need to do that because your points speak for themselves.


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## THE'clip'SHOW

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> As for the notion that Kobe has this this guy has that GRANTED I'm acknowledging your point here TMac LED his team to the playoffs, but at the end of a close game and it comes down to One possesion to make a play YOU only need the greatness of ONE player to make the difference not neccessariy the whole team, if TMac has the ball beating his man MAKE a basket is all I'm saying make a play thats what great players do, I don't suggest that by himself that he could beat a whole team but as an individual at the end he can make ONE play to win a game which he had at least twice in that series that could have made the difference thats why thats an excuse same for KG make a play don't cry make the play TMac said he was better than Davis but Davis made all the plays, TMac said he was better but was outplayed by Davis, Davis does have more players to pass to but what happened when Davis made that game winner that Ultimately didn't count but should have he Made a play thats all I want to see TMac do before I laud at How fantastic he is, please Just make a play by yourself at the end of the game if he's so great and save the excuses. Davis did make a play at end of another game in that series that did count when he stripped TMac of the ball.


I will have to disagree, I think it is much easier for Kobe to take (and the % he makes will be higher) the shot at the end of the game because he has someone else that the Defense must gaurd because he could take the final shot examples on the lakers (Shaq and HOrry)...... Who else does T-Mac have that the D must worry about. THe defense is going to shut down T-Mac at the end of the game and make someone else beat them.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>c_dog</b>!
> T-Mac is overhyped, but he's definately got skills. He has to prove that he, too, can play defense, though. Because if he thinks Kobe has no D, then neither does he.


Tmac haters.. sheesh.

How is he overhyped? 6'9", top 5 (maybe higher) athlete in the league, and can do everything on the court..


I cant believe people still use "kobe has rings" against Tmac.. kobe also has Shaq and to not take that into consideration is just plain ignerent foo.


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Grant can talk because he was an allstar and has RINGS as for Ewing he's going to the FAME HALL THAT IS, these guys would have no reason to defame TMac he is their teamate on Grants part and was one on Ewings part so why would they want to diss him they were making obeservations.


Like I said Grant has rings by association, he was only an all-star because he had mike and Scottie PERIOD. Ewings going to the hall of fame yes but has Ewing ever won a championship. NO



> I said TMac was great and I believe he hasn't reached his full potential yet but I'm just trying to add perspective for those who say he's this great this or that without having made a play I know he's a great player but he has a ways to go before he reaches Kobe's Shaq's ,Tim Duncan or Iverson's level of maturity or poise in the clutch. Dragnsmke1 and Beez is that how you spell it, no need for hostility or calling someones point names I don't need to do that because your points speak for themselves.


I dont name call and what I said was justified. KOBE is where he is at once again because of 1 talent and a big 2 in Shaq. Of course Kobe is gonna be able to make those plays when defenses are collapsing on SHAQ. Dont downplay what thi syoung Man has done the past 2 seasons By himself. He is clutch and you will see


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## couchtomato

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> I will have to disagree, I think it is much easier for Kobe to take (and the % he makes will be higher) the shot at the end of the game because he has someone else that the Defense must gaurd because he could take the final shot examples on the lakers (Shaq and HOrry)...... Who else does T-Mac have that the D must worry about. THe defense is going to shut down T-Mac at the end of the game and make someone else beat them.


Sorry T-Mac was playing the Hornets - not Dallas, Sacramento, or the Lakers. The # 5 seed was playing the #4 seed. Quit blaming the team mates. The games were all pretty close - if he had made one spectacular play (and that's what you are supposed to do in the playoffs to get recognized) at the end of the close games they could have won the series.

Kobe is a lousy 3 point shooter - yet somehow he seems to make them when it matters. I'm always at home going "don't shoot it don't shoot it - yeah I knew he could do it!" Nobody considered Kobe the best when he was throwing up airballs. He had to earn it. T-Mac needs to win more than one game in a playoff series. 

Explain to me how Shaq and Horry helped Kobe grab a rebound over 3 seven footers and put the ball in the hole with a few seconds left to seal the victory. Make "the" play T-Mac - a pass, a rebound, a block, something!


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## Dragnsmke1

> Originally posted by <b>couchtomato</b>!
> 
> 
> Sorry T-Mac was playing the Hornets - not Dallas, Sacramento, or the Lakers. The # 5 seed was playing the #4 seed. Quit blaming the team mates. The games were all pretty close - if he had made one spectacular play (and that's what you are supposed to do in the playoffs to get recognized) at the end of the close games they could have won the series.
> 
> Kobe is a lousy 3 point shooter - yet somehow he seems to make them when it matters. I'm always at home going "don't shoot it don't shoot it - yeah I knew he could do it!" Nobody considered Kobe the best when he was throwing up airballs. He had to earn it. T-Mac needs to win more than one game in a playoff series.
> 
> Explain to me how Shaq and Horry helped Kobe grab a rebound over 3 seven footers and put the ball in the hole with a few seconds left to seal the victory. Make "the" play T-Mac - a pass, a rebound, a block, something!


The same way Bobby Jackson Does it. Alittle hustle a little luck. A little speed. A little quickness.


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## THE'clip'SHOW

> Originally posted by <b>couchtomato</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Explain to me how Shaq and Horry helped Kobe grab a rebound over 3 seven footers and put the ball in the hole with a few seconds left to seal the victory. Make "the" play T-Mac - a pass, a rebound, a block, something!


Because the seven footers are always worried about boxing out shaq, and getting out to hOrry so he doesn't burry a 3. If you don't think it is easier for kobe to create for himself because he has other clutch players on his team than your'e crazy....It is especially easier for Kobe at the end of game THAN it is for T-Mac because there are other guys on the court who can make that game winning shot.......


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## couchtomato

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> 
> 
> The same way Bobby Jackson Does it. Alittle hustle a little luck. A little speed. A little quickness.


Exactly, throw in desire and determination. You build your reputation from the things that you do, not from the things we think you can do or the things that you did in the regular season. I don't know if you were being funny but Bobby Jackson made some momentum changing plays in that series against the Lakers. And guess who I give the credit to - Bobby Jackson.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>couchtomato</b>!
> 
> Sorry T-Mac was playing the Hornets - not Dallas, Sacramento, or the Lakers. The # 5 seed was playing the #4 seed. Quit blaming the team mates. The games were all pretty close - if he had made one spectacular play (and that's what you are supposed to do in the playoffs to get recognized) at the end of the close games they could have won the series.


Look at Tmac's stats for that series and remember those stats were posted with a terribly bad back (so bad he could barely walk at times) and with the team's 2nd best player nowhere to be found with an ankle injury.

Tmac could not have done any more.

I'm sure Tmac would love to make plays at the end of games, but his teammates need to as well. At the end of games, Tmac is doubled as soon as he touches the ball and tripled as soon as he moves. Kobe has the luxury of not facing that type of D.

With a healthy Grant Hill, Orlando wins that series. Hell, maybe even a healthy Mike Miller.


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## Dragnsmke1

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> 
> Look at Tmac's stats for that series and remember those stats were posted with a terribly bad back (so bad he could barely walk at times) and with the team's 2nd best player nowhere to be found with an ankle injury.
> 
> Tmac could not have done any more.
> 
> I'm sure Tmac would love to make plays at the end of games, but his teammates need to as well. At the end of games, Tmac is doubled as soon as he touches the ball and tripled as soon as he moves. Kobe has the luxury of not facing that type of D.
> 
> With a healthy Grant Hill, Orlando wins that series. Hell, maybe even a healthy Mike Miller.


Yup


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## couchtomato

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> Because the seven footers are always worried about boxing out shaq, and getting out to hOrry so he doesn't burry a 3. If you don't think it is easier for kobe to create for himself because he has other clutch players on his team than your'e crazy....It is especially easier for Kobe at the end of game THAN it is for T-Mac because there are other guys on the court who can make that game winning shot.......


You mean to tell me with the game on the line, Tim Duncan and David Robinson are so concerned with boxing out Shaq and Horry hitting a three that they didn't 
a) grab the offensive board 
b) wonder where the person who has been torching them for the last two years was?

I'm not crazy. I know Kobe has an advantage. Kobe knows he's fortunate to play with Shaq. It took him years to quit fighting that advantage. But it's not 100% advantage for Kobe and zero% for T-Mac and that's where these arguments usually start. Where are Kobe's points for playing stronger competition? Where are Kobe's points for stepping up when Shaq isn't on the floor? Where are his points for trusting his team mates even when most of them were having horrible playoffs? Where are his points for bringing his team back from double digit deficits. Shaq made all his plays for him? Did Shaq help Kobe swat Sabonis shot in a pivotal game 7? Is it because of Shaq that he played 47 minutes and all of the OT in another game 7. Take away 75% of what Kobe has accomplished and he still will be ahead of T-Mac. Even if you have 2 people guarding Shaq every second of every game (which doesn't happen BTW) that still leaves 3 other people. What are they doing? Guarding Fish?

My only point is don't give Kobe no credit for what he does and T-Mac 100% credit for doing jack!

It's not about a game winning shot at this point - just hold on to the ball when your team has a chance to win.


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## THE'clip'SHOW

> Originally posted by <b>couchtomato</b>!
> 
> 
> You mean to tell me with the game on the line, Tim Duncan and David Robinson are so concerned with boxing out Shaq and Horry hitting a three that they didn't
> a) grab the offensive board
> b) wonder where the person who has been torching them for the last two years was?
> 
> I'm not crazy. I know Kobe has an advantage. Kobe knows he's fortunate to play with Shaq. It took him years to quit fighting that advantage. But it's not 100% advantage for Kobe and zero% for T-Mac and that's where these arguments usually start. Where are Kobe's points for playing stronger competition? Where are Kobe's points for stepping up when Shaq isn't on the floor? Where are his points for trusting his team mates even when most of them were having horrible playoffs? Where are his points for bringing his team back from double digit deficits. Shaq made all his plays for him? Did Shaq help Kobe swat Sabonis shot in a pivotal game 7? Is it because of Shaq that he played 47 minutes and all of the OT in another game 7. Take away 75% of what Kobe has accomplished and he still will be ahead of T-Mac. Even if you have 2 people guarding Shaq every second of every game (which doesn't happen BTW) that still leaves 3 other people. What are they doing? Guarding Fish?
> 
> My only point is don't give Kobe no credit for what he does and T-Mac 100% credit for doing jack!
> 
> It's not about a game winning shot at this point - just hold on to the ball when your team has a chance to win.


I just said it was EASIER for kobe.......
Kobe wouldn't have those rings if Rice, Horry etc didn't hit game winning shots....
And check their winning % when shaq sits and its not good, not even near championship level....so as for kobe steping it up...I think he steps up his prayers that Shaq heals quickly.


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## THE'clip'SHOW

> Originally posted by <b>couchtomato</b>!
> 
> 
> You mean to tell me with the game on the line, Tim Duncan and David Robinson are so concerned with boxing out Shaq and Horry hitting a three that they didn't


Oh yeah...... why worry about the most dominating player ever to play the game...????


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## Damian Necronamous

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> TMac:starwars: Kobe


Hey...how come T-Mac gets to be Darth Vader?


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## couchtomato

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> With a healthy Grant Hill, Orlando wins that series. Hell, maybe even a healthy Mike Miller.


Maybe... whether they can do it has yet to be determined. (Remember, Hornets didn't have Mash.) Sorta like Kobe leading a team to a first round loss (new standard for excellence) has yet to be determined. 

Love how T-Mac gets that benefit of the doubt, again.


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## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> I just said it was EASIER for kobe.......
> Kobe wouldn't have those rings if Rice, Horry etc didn't hit game winning shots....
> And check their winning % when shaq sits and its not good, not even near championship level....so as for kobe steping it up...I think he steps up his prayers that Shaq heals quickly.


I'm guessing we'll learn in a couple of weeks how well the Lakers play without Shaq. This time the team has a chance to practice and play without him for a sustained period of time. I'm guessing Kobe and Co. play fairly well against pretty stiff competition. We'll see.

:rbanana: :gbanana: :banana: :wbanana: :bbanana:


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## jazzy1

Make a play is all we're saying all you have is excuses, How come Phil Jackson whom everyone considers a great coach always call the plays for Kobe in the tight spots not SHAQ, because he knows Kobe is money, Tmac make a play ,Dragnsmk1 stop apologizing fort Tmac ,Clips show the same thing I don't have to apologize for Kobe because HE MAKES THE PLAYS,when TMAC PLAYED WITH VINCE CARTER ANOTHER GREAT PLAYER how come he didn't make a play then oh wait I know he was young wasn't the player he is now all sounds like excuses, Iverson I guess made the plays because he played with the Offensive Juggernaut that is Mutombo right ,wrong.

Kobe wouldn't have rings if he didn't play with Shaq but guess what Shaq wouldn't have rings either if he didn't play with Kobe, Kobe makes Shaq's job easier also, the defense has to cheat over and cover Kobe also, thats why the Lakers win because Horry,Fox and fisher get open looks all game,in between when Shaq and Kobe are slicing teams up, Shaq was swept in the finals without Kobe and has 3 straight titles with him anything else would be trying to predict future events just Make a play TMac. 


As for 2 weeks from now what is that gonna prove ,all its gonna prove is the same thing it proved last year which was the Lakers were just about a .500 team without Shaq coincidentally about the same as TMacs Magic team, 

Also TMacs scoring average when Grant Hill played last year dipped because he had to share the ball with another great player, dipped to around 20-22ppg, or something like that, which proves to me that Kobe still averages about the same as Tmac does playing consistently with another 27ppg scorer if he didn't have Shaq there and he knew the Diesel wasn't ever coming Back he could probably get 30 ppg. I guarantee you Clipshow,Drgnsmk1, and Beez that Tmac soring will drop by 3-5 ppg if Grant Hill plays all season long.

Make a play TMac,Baron Davis did. 

Horace Grant started and played well to earn his rings and his allstar birth ,so he should know better than you know Beez, as for Ewing didn't win a title so what, Jack Haley has a championship ring so what does that mean, Ewing will have a Hall of Fame ring and both believe he's not on Kobe's and MJ's level.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Make a play is all we're saying all you have is excuses, How come Phil Jackson whom everyone considers a great coach always call the plays for Kobe in the tight spots not SHAQ, because he knows Kobe is money, Tmac make a play ,Dragnsmk1 stop apologizing fort Tmac ,Clips show the same thing I don't have to apologize for Kobe because HE MAKES THE PLAYS,when TMAC PLAYED WITH VINCE CARTER ANOTHER GREAT PLAYER how come he didn't make a play then oh wait I know he was young wasn't the player he is now all sounds like excuses, Iverson I guess made the plays because he played with the Offensive Juggernaut that is Mutombo right ,wrong.


Why didnt Kobe make the plays with Shaq early in his career? What happened with those FOUR airballs in the clutch? Remember, Tmac is actually younger AND a year behind Kobe, yet is statistically ahead of where Kobe was at this point.

Lets also not forget that in the series that Tmac and VC lost, Tmac was actually the best player in that series for Toronto, not the much more heralded Vince Carter.

Ofcourse Jackson calls the tight plays for Kobe. Shaq isnt a guy who is going to take his man off the dribble for a late score, nor does Jackson want Shaq with the ball because he'll have to shoot free throws.. so who else's number is he going to call..






> Kobe wouldn't have rings if he didn't play with Shaq but guess what Shaq wouldn't have rings either if he didn't play with Kobe, Kobe makes Shaq's job easier also, the defense has to cheat over and cover Kobe also, thats why the Lakers win because Horry,Fox and fisher get open looks all game,in between when Shaq and Kobe are slicing teams up, Shaq was swept in the finals without Kobe and has 3 straight titles with him anything else would be trying to predict future events just Make a play TMac.


Actually, Shaq would more than likely still have rings with Tmac, Pierce, Vince, KG, or a host of others.. he is by all means the most dominate player on the planet.

And dont bring up the "he didnt do it with Eddie Jones" .. well, Eddie Jones isnt that good.

Dont fool yourself either, Orlando would have had some rings if that team had been kept together (assuming Penny was healthy)...



> As for 2 weeks from now what is that gonna prove ,all its gonna prove is the same thing it proved last year which was the Lakers were just about a .500 team without Shaq coincidentally about the same as TMacs Magic team,


Actually, I believe the Lakers were BELOW .500 without Shaq.




> Also TMacs scoring average when Grant Hill played last year dipped because he had to share the ball with another great player, dipped to around 20-22ppg, or something like that, which proves to me that Kobe still averages about the same as Tmac does playing consistently with another 27ppg scorer if he didn't have Shaq there and he knew the Diesel wasn't ever coming Back he could probably get 30 ppg. I guarantee you Clipshow,Drgnsmk1, and Beez that Tmac soring will drop by 3-5 ppg if Grant Hill plays all season long.



14 games is not enough to make a judgement on how Tmac and Hill are going to play together.. it took at least 2 years before Kobe and Shaq really were able to mesh.




> Make a play TMac,Baron Davis did.


Yeah, Baron made a great play to save a game.. but he took a chance.. had he missed that steal, Orlando probably wins that game. Good for him. I love how everyone says Tmac isnt this and isnt that.. sure, he has missed some game winning shots, but he has also single-handedly won more than his fair share of games, including winning overtime games by outscoring the other team all by himself..


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Horace Grant started and played well to earn his rings and his allstar birth ,so he should know better than you know Beez, as for Ewing didn't win a title so what, Jack Haley has a championship ring so what does that mean, Ewing will have a Hall of Fame ring and both believe he's not on Kobe's and MJ's level.


I dont care what he has done I dont know him and he dont know me and at the same time like I said he benefited greatly by playing with the greatest player and greatest 2nd fiddle player of all-time. Dont you tell me just because he has a ring and a all-star he this and that. Therefore if you are going to go by him knowing what he knows what you say has no point either. No one in this thread has made excuses for TMAC and everyone has stated the obvious. Phil draws those plays for KOBE because no matter what you say teams are gonna always focus on SHAQ. If you dont understand that then all of these posts have basically been for naught


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## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>Dee Bo</b>!
> 
> Actually, Shaq would more than likely still have rings with Tmac, Pierce, Vince, KG, or a host of others.. he is by all means the most dominate player on the planet.


yet his teams have had little margin for error in 2 of their 3 championship seasons. it's ridiculous to think a host of others would have played at kobe's level, which was necessary for la to squeak by portland in '00 and sacto in '02. kobe was the best player on the court in game 7 against portland, and put up 30 10 and 7 in game 7 against sacto. kobe was well ahead of tmac and pierce in '00. replace kobe with anyone who contributes slightly less, and la loses in both years. kobe's been the main difference against sa both years. and in '01, kobe put up 29.5 ppg in the playoffs, carrying la in many games (promting shaq to say he's in awe). yet we're to assume a host of others could could have done the exact same thing.

they're all great players, yes. but shaq hasn't carried la on his back all by his lonesome these last 3 seasons. he's dominated the finals every year, but to just get there he's needed lots of help. kobe's contributed in ways very few other players, if any, could have over that period.


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> yet his teams have had little margin for error in 2 of their 3 championship seasons. it's ridiculous to think a host of others would have played at kobe's level, which was necessary for la to squeak by portland in '00 and sacto in '02. kobe was the best player on the court in game 7 against portland, and put up 30 10 and 7 in game 7 against sacto. kobe was well ahead of tmac and pierce in '00. replace kobe with anyone who contributes slightly less, and la loses in both years. kobe's been the main difference against sa both years. and in '01, kobe put up 29.5 ppg in the playoffs, carrying la in many games (promting shaq to say he's in awe). yet we're to assume a host of others could could have done the exact same thing.
> 
> they're all great players, yes. but shaq hasn't carried la on his back all by his lonesome these last 3 seasons. he's dominated the finals every year, but to just get there he's needed lots of help. kobe's contributed in ways very few other players, if any, could have over that period.


Trade KOBE for TMAC, PIERCE, AI hell even Vince Carter. Lakers still win because of shaq


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## jazzy1

Now let me see this its who else do they have to call plays for so it has to be Kobe man please, Duncan gets the ball he's a big man, Phil could call plays for anybody he wants but he calls them for Kobe because Kobe is clutch simple as that, 

Trade Kobe for this player or that player is a familiar refrain Pierce finally showed up last year now suddenly he's equal to Kobe , Kobe been playing in allstar games since he was 19 years old.TMac or Iverson aren't as good just face it, You think Shaq could play with a guy like Iverson who shoots 30 times a game man please, and with TMac's inability to come through in the clutch the Lakers wouldn't be Champions, yes because Kobe's older. 

The Lakers record overall without Shaq is about .500 look it up,

Deebo point 1 you don't get it Kobe was on a team with Eddie Jones ,Van Excel and Shaq and none of them had the balls to take the game winning shot but an 18 yr old, thats why Kobe's great he has the balls to take the big shot no fear thats why he's great, Shaq so great he let an 18 year old out of highscholl take the winning shot, yeah right ,Kobe got sack thats all, Airballs yeah he shot them but he shot them, TMac still hasn't come through matter of fact sometimes Rivers draws up plays for Garrity to shoot rather than TMac in the clutch, TMac admits he has to do a better job. 

Deebo Point 2 about Shaq having rings he had a chance with Penny and GOTS NONE O,NADA ,ZELCH, ZERO NOTHING, You bring up players that have done very little and thats supposed to mean they would be champions, KG like TMac hasn't gotten out of the 1st rd. Pierce breakout year was just LAST YEAR. 

Deebo point 3 14 games not enough to make a judgment then what do you suggest we find out about the Lakers in 2 weeks they'll probably play less than 14 games without Shaq anyway my point is made TMac's stats are lower,

As for the Vince Carter ,TMac tandem in that series against New York he was the best player in that series and still didn't come through once again at the end of a close game. 

And finally DEEBO if TMac was so great and outscored teams as YOU suggest than why didn't he do it against the Hornets, for the record he hardley ever comes through in the clutch for Orlando. 

and for BEEZ so what that he played for the Bulls and got a ring being the third best player I like how some of you act as if the only player vital to winning a championship is the 2 star players guess what they aren't the only vital players maybe most important but not the only vital player, some of you act as if you've never played ball, IF ROBERT HORRY DOESN'T PLAY FOR THE LAKERS THEY WOULDN'T BE CHAMPIONS NOT EVEN ONCE, He's totally VITAL for the Lakers, Horace Grant was vital at the time for the Bulls, Without the some of these guys you don't win, even with great players leading the way you act as if Kobe is some sort of Allen Houston and that its all about Shaq and nobody else if that was the case when he got to LA he'd already have 4 rings if Kobe wasn't valuable. He had none and was SWEPT in the finals now with Kobe he's doing the SWEEPING. As for the notion that teams are focusing on Shaq alone thats ridiculous why does Horry,Fisher and Fox get open looks and a chance to be heroes because when Kobe penetrates and kicks it back out after being DOUBLE TEAMED they get open shots, everyone isn't just sitting down their triple teaming Shaq, thats irrational to believe that, a team can actually double team 2 guys thats a thought.


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## gonejay

^^^^^^^
WORD!!! BUMP ON THAT!


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> and for BEEZ so what that he played for the Bulls and got a ring being the third best player I like how some of you act as if the only player vital to winning a championship is the 2 star players guess what they aren't the only vital players maybe most important but not the only vital player, some of you act as if you've never played ball, IF ROBERT HORRY DOESN'T PLAY FOR THE LAKERS THEY WOULDN'T BE CHAMPIONS NOT EVEN ONCE, He's totally VITAL for the Lakers, Horace Grant was vital at the time for the Bulls, Without the some of these guys you don't win, even with great players leading the way you act as if Kobe is some sort of Allen Houston and that its all about Shaq and nobody else if that was the case when he got to LA he'd already have 4 rings if Kobe wasn't valuable. He had none and was SWEPT in the finals now with Kobe he's doing the SWEEPING. As for the notion that teams are focusing on Shaq alone thats ridiculous why does Horry,Fisher and Fox get open looks and a chance to be heroes because when Kobe penetrates and kicks it back out after being DOUBLE TEAMED they get open shots, everyone isn't just sitting down their triple teaming Shaq, thats irrational to believe that, a team can actually double team 2 guys thats a thought.


So Shaq has never been double or triple teamed. This discussion has been useless for I know that the non-superstars are vital but through this whole discussion you have missed my point. SO you win


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## jazzy1

Beez I do see your point and its a valid one but I think we're both right here, yes and Kobe acknowledges as much having Shaq on the floor makes his job easier and that with the focus on Shaq he can make plays easier because of it ,thats what Kobe says, All I'm saying is that Kobe is a great player ,I think he's ahead of where TMac is right now, its hard to judge the situations because they can't be reversed, Kobe's shown an ability to come through in the clutch to take credit away from his talent because of who he plays with seems unfair when its him making all the clutch plays, now McGrady gets all the credit yet if he doesn't come through he deserves some of the blame as well thats all, so I say we're both right in that instance.


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## THE'clip'SHOW

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Beez I do see your point and its a valid one but I think we're both right here, yes and Kobe acknowledges as much having Shaq on the floor makes his job easier and that with the focus on Shaq he can make plays easier because of it ,thats what Kobe says, All I'm saying is that Kobe is a great player ,I think he's ahead of where TMac is right now, its hard to judge the situations because they can't be reversed, Kobe's shown an ability to come through in the clutch to take credit away from his talent because of who he plays with seems unfair when its him making all the clutch plays, now McGrady gets all the credit yet if he doesn't come through he deserves some of the blame as well thats all, so I say we're both right in that instance.


Don't you understand its easier to make clutch plays when you're on the court with other superstars????? Beez is right you just wont get it and thats cool, we shouldn't go back and forth arguing about it.


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