# Melo out of Denver just a matter what time!



## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

On ESPN.com


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## thaKEAF (Mar 8, 2004)




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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

*Sources: Anthony, Nuggets are likely to part*




> All signs continue to point toward the eventual divorce between Carmelo Anthony and the Denver Nuggets.
> 
> League sources say it is now a matter of when, not if, Anthony and the Nuggets will go their separate ways.
> 
> ...


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

The Bulls need to get in on this. The fact that the Knicks are the team everybody is talking about is a good sign. 

Let's make the Knick fan base a little more miserable.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

He could make the East a lot more interesting if he went to Chicago.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

VanillaPrice said:


> He could make the East a lot more interesting if he went to Chicago.


But the Bulls have Luol Deng


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

VanillaPrice said:


> He could make the East a lot more interesting if he went to Chicago.


More interesting still when he goes to Boston. :bsmile:


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## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

ATLien said:


> But the Bulls have Luol Deng


Well they could trade for him, at least nuggets will get something...


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Sucks for George Karl - come back from cancer just to lose your star but business is business. The Nets really need to jump on this and they can eventually offer Melo the NY lifestyle he wants....maybe they'll let Carmelo pick their next name as further incentive


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## BeeGee (Jul 9, 2010)

Notice that Melo didn't stand up and say *"I got a goal, and it's a big goal, and that's to bring the city of Denver a championship... And I won't stop til I get it..."*

Yeh I'm just startin' sh##, but what's a thread on the NBA Forum if it isn't injected with a big dose of Lebron?


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)




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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

**** journalism. This is the same story from a month ago, but with Melo's name instead of Chris Paul. "League Source"? What does he do for the league? Is it an owner, an agent, another player? The janitor?

There's no new news in this article, but the internet is going to react like there is.

I have no idea what Melo is going to do, but if the Lebron saga told me anything it's that we won't know until we know, and then and only then will we be told that we retroactively knew all along.

There has to be a better news source than ESPN for basketball.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

He should stay in Denver. Their management has shown the ability to build a team and the Lakers are a shorter hurdle than the Heat. I wouldn't be running to the East now. Either stay in Denver and convince management to go after Paul or try and get with Paul, Deron or Roy.

If he is smart, force your way to Portland. They have trade parts.

Try and get them with the flood of good but not great young players: Bayless, Batum, Fernandez, Babbitt, the crap they have overseas and draft picks.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Melo would be a nice fit with Portland as long as they could keep Roy and Aldridge.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

:vuvuzela:


futuristxen said:


> **** journalism. This is the same story from a month ago, but with Melo's name instead of Chris Paul. "League Source"? What does he do for the league? Is it an owner, an agent, another player? The janitor?
> 
> There's no new news in this article, but the internet is going to react like there is.
> 
> ...


To be fair, this article first appeared with Kobe who would never wear a Laker jersey again.


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## Wilmatic2 (Oct 30, 2005)

Not a big surprise.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Carmelo for Carter's expiring! Get it done Otis.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The way this generation of stars act, I think Kobe might win more than just one title over the next five years.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Why didn't Knicks trade Curry package/picks for Melo?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

HKF said:


> The way this generation of stars act, I think Kobe might win more than just one title over the next five years.


You mean the guy that told Kevin Garnett not to approve a trade to LA because he was sick & tired of Kupcake and was going to Chicago? That guy? Sorry, not seeing it. For practical reasons, LA plays terrible transition defense.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

HKF said:


> The way this generation of stars act, I think Kobe might win more than just one title over the next five years.


Only if he invents a time machine, and Pau Gasol turns into Tim Duncan. If you don't think these super teams don't make the Laker's job that much harder, I don't know what to tell you. The one advantage is that these teams are building out East, so the Lakers will still get to the Finals. They may just not be ready for what they find when they get there.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Only if he invents a time machine, and Pau Gasol turns into Tim Duncan. If you don't think these super teams don't make the Laker's job that much harder, I don't know what to tell you. The one advantage is that these teams are building out East, so the Lakers will still get to the Finals. They may just not be ready for what they find when they get there.


Well the two teams that beat the Lakers in the Kobe era in the Finals, were two of the greatest defensive teams of all time. Let's see if these "super teams" have that. As of right now, I don't see it. They are not beating the Lakers by outscoring them that's for sure.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

i agree hkf.. it still remains to be seen how good miami is defensively, especially considering their lack of size. on paper, sure miami is the best team. but that's just paper.

imo people tend to jump to conclusions when they see big names on a team. the redeem team of 2008 had a FAR superior group (in terms of individual talents) yet they did not handily win the gold medal.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

HKF said:


> They are not beating the Lakers by outscoring them that's for sure.


Why not? They have more offensive firepower. And I'm sure their defense will be more than enough to handle the Lakers.

The two biggest weaknesses for the Heat are the same as the Lakers. 

Fourth quarter lineups are probably going to be what...

Lebron
Wade
Mike Miller
Bosh
Haslem

vs.

Fisher
Kobe
Artest
Odom
Gasol


Bosh-Gasol is about a push. Wade vs. Kobe is a push. Lebron vs. the leftovers is the decider. The Lakers could barely beat the Celtics, and the Heat are the Celtics on steroids. If you though Paul Pierce wrecked the Lakers a few years ago, imagine a prime Wade or Lebron.

And if you don't think the Heat aren't going to be one of the top defenses in the league, you haven't been paying attention. Lebron and Wade both played on top defenses last season. Lebron being the heart and soul of one of them. Spoelstra is a great defensive coach.

You should be scared.

Wait. Wasn't this thread about Melo?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

HKF said:


> Well the two teams that beat the Lakers in the Kobe era in the Finals, were two of the greatest defensive teams of all time. Let's see if these "super teams" have that. As of right now, I don't see it. They are not beating the Lakers by outscoring them that's for sure.


The Lakers couldn't keep an aging Boston team at bay until Fat Andy broke Kendrick Perkins' knee (allowing LA to play multi-shot possessions). The one thing that Miami _can_ do is beat LA by outscoring them. The Lakers are going to need to improve exponentially in terms of transition defense, and with an increasing portion of their roster on the wrong side of 30, I just don't see where that improvement is going to come from.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

I would love for Melo to come to Chicago, but I'm done getting my hopes up over crap like this. My guess is NYC.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> The Lakers couldn't keep an aging Boston team at bay until Fat Andy broke Kendrick Perkins' knee (allowing LA to play multi-shot possessions). The one thing that Miami _can_ do is beat LA by outscoring them. The Lakers are going to need to improve exponentially in terms of transition defense, and with an increasing portion of their roster on the wrong side of 30, I just don't see where that improvement is going to come from.


No team has won a championship since the showtime Lakers as a transition offensive team. Until I see it from Miami, why should I expect it?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Until the Lakers show any propensity for defending in transition I'm not going to assume that they'll magically learn how. If they slow the game to a crawl, then Miami gets to play Z without penalty, and the Lakers lose the height advantage. If they try speeding things up, they're toast. They have about one year to win another title. If they don't do it in '11 the window's shut.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Only if he invents a time machine, and Pau Gasol turns into Tim Duncan. If you don't think these super teams don't make the Laker's job that much harder, I don't know what to tell you. The one advantage is that these teams are building out East, so the Lakers will still get to the Finals. They may just not be ready for what they find when they get there.


The Lakers weren't ready for the Celtics either, but somehow they got it done.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

HKF said:


> No team has won a championship since the showtime Lakers as a transition offensive team. Until I see it from Miami, why should I expect it?


That team's defense was understated, primarily because their offense was so potent.

Defense still wins championships, and the Lakers played very good defense for long periods of time to keep both Philadelphia and Boston at bay during those championship seasons.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

E.H. Munro said:


> Until the Lakers show any propensity for defending in transition I'm not going to assume that they'll magically learn how. If they slow the game to a crawl, then Miami gets to play Z without penalty, and the Lakers lose the height advantage. If they try speeding things up, they're toast. They have about one year to win another title. If they don't do it in '11 the window's shut.


Agreed and when you look at their miles and health problems already that doesn't help either. That LA core has played a ton of games in the past few years - if I was a LA fan I'd be concerned about Odom logging even more minutes through Team USA over the summer and Kobe's numerous ailments and recent surgery.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

What is Melo's rationale for leaving the Nuggets? This guy is on a loaded team and still wants to bolt?


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

All his friends are switching teams so he feels left out? :whoknows:


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> The Lakers couldn't keep an aging Boston team at bay until Fat Andy broke Kendrick Perkins' knee (allowing LA to play multi-shot possessions). The one thing that Miami _can_ do is beat LA by outscoring them. The Lakers are going to need to improve exponentially in terms of transition defense, and with an increasing portion of their roster on the wrong side of 30, I just don't see where that improvement is going to come from.


Stop reaching for that excuse every time. I won't say for sure that Boston would've won or LA would've won. I mean hell, Perk did get injured, but Boston had a lead in game 7 WITHOUT Perk. That game was strictly who wanted it more.

And if you want to play the game of if, LA would be looking for a four peat had their players had been healthy as Boston's players in 2008 and 2010. As it stands now, Boston had a break in 08, LA in 2010.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Jakain said:


> Agreed and when you look at their miles and health problems already that doesn't help either. That LA core has played a ton of games in the past few years - if I was a LA fan I'd be concerned about Odom logging even more minutes through Team USA over the summer and Kobe's numerous ailments and recent surgery.


Actually, Odom playing for team usa is a good thing. He'll gain leadership experience, and his confidence will be higher.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

E.H. Munro said:


> The Lakers couldn't keep an aging Boston team at bay until Fat Andy broke Kendrick Perkins' knee (allowing LA to play multi-shot possessions). The one thing that Miami _can_ do is beat LA by outscoring them. The Lakers are going to need to improve exponentially in terms of transition defense, and with an increasing portion of their roster on the wrong side of 30, I just don't see where that improvement is going to come from.


Uh, if you recall correctly Andrew Bynum was hurt as well and is an exponentially better player than Perkins. Your excuse about Perkins being the difference for that Celtics team is mute. On another note, I'm not sure how the Lakers are an aging team. I could understand in the sense that every team is aging but the Lakers have shown no noticable decline in recent memory to cause a concern as did the Celtics. With a healthy roster following Kobe and Bynum's surgery, in addition to the signings of Steve Blake and Matt Barnes, I think it is the Heat and not the Lakers that will have a tough time.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

E.H. Munro said:


> Until the Lakers show any propensity for defending in transition I'm not going to assume that they'll magically learn how. If they slow the game to a crawl, then Miami gets to play Z without penalty, and the Lakers lose the height advantage. If they try speeding things up, they're toast. They have about one year to win another title. If they don't do it in '11 the window's shut.


The Lakers appeared to have no problems disposing of the Thunder and Suns in the playoffs, the two primer transitions teams in the league. I certainly don't think transition defense is a cause for concern, especially when it remains to be seen if the Heat will even be an uptempo team. Spolestra has coached a half-court system and LeBron has played for nothing but half-court oriented systems.

P.S., your absurd if you think Big Z has anything of Andrew Bynum...absurd.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Jakain said:


> Agreed and when you look at their miles and health problems already that doesn't help either. That LA core has played a ton of games in the past few years - if I was a LA fan I'd be concerned about Odom logging even more minutes through Team USA over the summer and Kobe's numerous ailments and recent surgery.


Odom is a bench player and one who will figure to have his time cut during the regular season with the addition of Matt Barnes. He'll be able to handle 25mpg (if that) especially when you consider that he's never had a serious injury history. And for all the ailments Kobe has, his game has not declined and numbers closely mirror that of his MVP season. The Lakers are a better team than the Heat but people forget that because of how much the Heat improved. The achilles heal of the Lakers at PG and backup swingman has been plugged with Steve Blake and Matt Barnes-aka starters on a contender. I expect them to repeat.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

HB said:


> What is Melo's rationale for leaving the Nuggets? This guy is on a loaded team and still wants to bolt?


The Nuggets are an aging franchise and expect to need a major retooling of personnel in a few years. Even with this roster at full strength, they were maybe the 5th or 6th best team in the league. With the landscape of the league changing so drastically this past season, they might struggle to be in the top 10.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

So that means he should bolt to another team and of course when that team begins to age he should do the same too? Puhhleaseee!!! This is a team that has shown they are willing to spend and surround this guy with talent....if not for his immaturity coupled with his other volatile teammates' the Nuggets could have made the finals not too long ago.


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## jericho (Jul 12, 2002)

I think Denver just isn't his "kind of town," and my suspicion is that he isn't mentally strong or emotionally mature enough to believe he can carry a team to a title on his own (i.e., as the undisputed main man). 

I think it's a bit of a punk move, but I say if he wants out, let him out and get the best value possible in return. As a lifelong Nuggets fan, I've never been confident that Anthony is the kind of player you build a perennial contender around. Their best opportunity with this core was two seasons ago when Billups had a bit more gas in the tank than he does now.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

HB said:


> So that means he should bolt to another team and of course when that team begins to age he should do the same too? Puhhleaseee!!! This is a team that has shown they are willing to spend and surround this guy with talent....if not for his immaturity coupled with his other volatile teammates' the Nuggets could have made the finals not too long ago.


At 25 years old, when that team begins to age, he'll likely be on the tail end of his career as well. On another note, as competitive as the Nuggets have been, they did move Marcus Camby for nothing because of luxury tax concerns. With the rise of these "super teams," owners are going to have to be willing to spend to keep teams competitive. On a different note, what example do you have of his "immaturity," stopping the Nuggets from getting into the Finals? I can't remember any of those instances. He went toe-to-toe with Kobe Bryant the only time they made it out of the first round. That was no small order.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

jericho said:


> I think Denver just isn't his "kind of town," and my suspicion is that he isn't mentally strong or emotionally mature enough to believe he can carry a team to a title on his own (i.e., as the undisputed main man).
> 
> I think it's a bit of a punk move, but I say if he wants out, let him out and get the best value possible in return. As a lifelong Nuggets fan, I've never been confident that Anthony is the kind of player you build a perennial contender around. Their best opportunity with this core was two seasons ago when Billups had a bit more gas in the tank than he does now.


I mean, carrying a team to the Finals ain't as easy as pie. Teams like the Lakers and Heat have star power that far eclipses anything the Nuggets have to offer. He's just reading the writing on the wall that you need all-star teams to be competitive.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

I also see Melo in NY as much more of a realistic possibility than LeBron was. DaGrinch in the past made several points on the situation. All-star players usually change teams to either make more money, play on a more competitive team or "go home." The Knicks fulfill each of these 3 ambitions. 

New York gives Melo the stage to the international market that he has never had access to and to millions of dollars in more endorsement deals than he's had in Denver. New York gives him the opportunity to play with another all-star in Amar'e, a coach whose system he loves AND on a team with the ability to add a 3rd star (see Chris Paul/Tony Parker) to rival the Heat/Lakers. New York also allows him to "go home," back to Brooklyn where he was born and where his wife LaLa is from. I expect him in a Knick uniform ASAP.


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

BeeGee said:


> Notice that Melo didn't stand up and say *"I got a goal, and it's a big goal, and that's to bring the city of Denver a championship... And I won't stop til I get it..."*
> 
> Yeh I'm just startin' sh##, but what's a thread on the NBA Forum if it isn't injected with a big dose of Lebron?


Melo swings and runs like a bitch!


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

TwinkieFoot said:


> At 25 years old, when that team begins to age, he'll likely be on the tail end of his career as well. On another note, as competitive as the Nuggets have been, they did move Marcus Camby for nothing because of luxury tax concerns. With the rise of these "super teams," owners are going to have to be willing to spend to keep teams competitive. On a different note, what example do you have of his "immaturity," stopping the Nuggets from getting into the Finals? I can't remember any of those instances. He went toe-to-toe with Kobe Bryant the only time they made it out of the first round. That was no small order.


Chuck a palooza


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Doesn't Melo want that the NY life as well? He's got the background and connections for them. I also wonder how George Karl's cancer affected Melo...its ****ty to think this way but it probably sucked playing for an assistant coach and Karl might be a shell of his former self nowadays which doesn't seem that great to play for.





Tragedy said:


> Actually, Odom playing for team usa is a good thing. He'll gain leadership experience, and his confidence will be higher.


Yea its only potentially detrimental - given the miles he's got these past few years I'm not sure if you really want Odom playing for the undersized Team USA though imo.



TwinkieFoot said:


> Odom is a bench player and one who will figure to have his time cut during the regular season with the addition of Matt Barnes. He'll be able to handle 25mpg (if that) especially when you consider that he's never had a serious injury history. And for all the ailments Kobe has, his game has not declined and numbers closely mirror that of his MVP season. The Lakers are a better team than the Heat but people forget that because of how much the Heat improved. The achilles heal of the Lakers at PG and backup swingman has been plugged with Steve Blake and Matt Barnes-aka starters on a contender. I expect them to repeat.


Odom's not your typical bench player though and are the Lakers going to play Barnes at PF - Odom's rarely a SF correct? Kobe declined last season and considering his surgery and miles, seems likely that it'll continue. Barnes and Blake were great additions considering what LA had to work with though but they'd also rather have Bell than the potential headcase in Barnes who just recently slapped his coach IIRC. At least Ron Artest won't be picked on as much by the coaching staff


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Tragedy said:


> Stop reaching for that excuse every time. I won't say for sure that Boston would've won or LA would've won. I mean hell, Perk did get injured, but Boston had a lead in game 7 WITHOUT Perk. That game was strictly who wanted it more.
> 
> And if you want to play the game of if, LA would be looking for a four peat had their players had been healthy as Boston's players in 2008 and 2010. As it stands now, Boston had a break in 08, LA in 2010.


LA had nearly as many offensive boards in the last two games as they did in the first five, and Boston lost the ability to get out in transition as a result. The last two games were strictly halfcourt, which tilted the playing field to LA. Halfcourt offense was a Boston weakness last year, and one that was more easily exploited once they could no longer limit LA to single shot possessions. 

In this instance I don't expect Miami to have the same problem that Boston does in that regard, so it's not an exploitable weakness. In a halfcourt game LA loses their height advantage, if they try to speed the game up they're going to get run off the court. Unless there's some magical pace that I'm not aware of, Miami represents a living nightmare for any team that can't defend in transition, and LA can't. The only reason that I think that Boston has a shot against the Heat is that they're a pretty good transitional defensive squad when they want to be. Though letting Tony Allen walk away is going to hurt a lot more than Boston's owners are going to admit (he was one of those guys that wreaked havoc in transition defense).


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

TwinkieFoot said:


> Uh, if you recall correctly Andrew Bynum was hurt


And the sun rises in the east and T-Mac's team will lose in the first round of the playoffs.



TwinkieFoot said:


> Your excuse about Perkins being the difference for that Celtics team is mute.


Mute isn't the word you're looking for. And yes, when a team loses their best defensive rebounder they have a propensity to surrender a ton of second shots, and don't get out in transition very well.



TwinkieFoot said:


> On another note, I'm not sure how the Lakers are an aging team. I could understand in the sense that every team is aging but the Lakers have shown no noticable decline in recent memory to cause a concern as did the Celtics. With a healthy roster following Kobe and Bynum's surgery, in addition to the signings of Steve Blake and Matt Barnes, I think it is the Heat and not the Lakers that will have a tough time.


The only starter under the age of 30 is the injury prone Andrew Bynum.



TwinkieFoot said:


> The Lakers appeared to have no problems disposing of the Thunder and Suns in the playoffs, the two primer transitions teams in the league.


Truly, they held the Suns to a mere 109.3 p/g, one of the greatest defensive performances in NBA history. You're right, the Lakers are one of the greatest transitional defensive squads in league history.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Jakain said:


> Odom's not your typical bench player though and are the Lakers going to play Barnes at PF - Odom's rarely a SF correct? Kobe declined last season and considering his surgery and miles, seems likely that it'll continue. Barnes and Blake were great additions considering what LA had to work with though but they'd also rather have Bell than the potential headcase in Barnes who just recently slapped his coach IIRC. At least Ron Artest won't be picked on as much by the coaching staff


To be perfectly honest, I have no idea what statistics your link was using and don't have any interest in finding out. What I do know is this. During the 2007-2008 season when Kobe won MVP, he averaged 28.3ppg, 6.3rpg, 5.4 apg and 1.8spg on 46% shooting. This most recent season, he's averaged 27ppg, 5.4rpg, 5.0apg and 1.6spg on 45.6% shooting. The numbers are almost identical and that is because contrary to popular belief, the guy has not really fallen off; instead has just been banged up, which obviously has not impeded his performance.

As for Odom, he's logged a few minutes at the 3 but mostly played the 4 ( http://www.82games.com/0910/09LAL9.HTM ). This year I think he'll play the 4 exclusively but, oh, wait a minute, the Lakers have an all-star named Pau Gasol getting a bulk of those minutes at the position. Odom is going to be hard pressed for minutes, so I doubt injuries should be a concern for him.

As for Barnes, you can call him whatever you want and when you do, the word "effective," must be one of them. I'm not sure where he's gotten this "headcase" label from but clearly Phil Jackson has no problem dealing with them (see Dennis Rodman, Ron Artest and to a lesser extent Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant and Shaq).


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Playing under the lights of NY is gonna do more for Melo than it would've for Lebron, and I believe it still would've done a lot for lebron.

Melo is a star, but he hasn't broken out into full blown superstardom yet.

Though coming to NY will reduce his chances of winning a title.

Miami, Orlando, Chicgao, Boston.

Right now the West has an aging Lakers, up and coming Thunder, and that's really it so far.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

E.H. Munro said:


> Mute isn't the word you're looking for. And yes, when a team loses their best defensive rebounder they have a propensity to surrender a ton of second shots, and don't get out in transition very well.


Well Andrew Bynum isn't exactly chopped liver on the boards either. BTW, Kevin Garnett (banged up and injuried), was the Celtics best defensive rebounder during the regular season (6.2 v 5.6 from Perkins).




E.H. Munro said:


> The only starter under the age of 30 is the injury prone Andrew Bynum.


Cool, and when exactly has 30 been considered old in the NBA? None of the players your alluding to has shown any signs of a decline aside from Fisher (who is being replaced by Steve Blake).





E.H. Munro said:


> Truly, they held the Suns to a mere 109.3 p/g, one of the greatest defensive performances in NBA history. You're right, the Lakers are one of the greatest transitional defensive squads in league history.


Oh wait, did the Lakers win that series or did they win that series? I'm pretty sure they won that series, making your point MUTE. If you fail to recall, the Suns were averaging 107ppg over the course of the playoffs. They also averaged 110ppg against the Spurs who are widely recognized as a very good defensive team.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

Barnes playing the 4? Yeah right, he is going to be Ron's backup and Odom is going to play alot at the 4 and Pau will get more time at the 5, if anyone is getting their minutes cut it will be Bynum, he has to be healthy this year or LA has no chance.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

TwinkieFoot said:


> To be perfectly honest, I have no idea what statistics your link was using and don't have any interest in finding out.


When you start citing raw FG% for perimeter players you lose. His aFG% has gone from above average to below average (from .503 to .488), and his scoring efficiency numbers have declined (from 1.152 PP/FGA to 1.09) despite playing on a better team. Yes, a large part of that is injury. But that's sort of what happens when you've played that many minutes and you're in your 30s. The injuries happen more often and linger longer.



TwinkieFoot said:


> As for Odom, he's logged a few minutes at the 3 but mostly played the 4 ( http://www.82games.com/0910/09LAL9.HTM ). This year I think he'll play the 4 exclusively but, oh, wait a minute, the Lakers have an all-star named Pau Gasol getting a bulk of those minutes at the position. Odom is going to be hard pressed for minutes, so I doubt injuries should be a concern for him.


Truly, with Andy Ironman Bynum the need for a guy that can play big minutes at the 4 is completely irrelevant. Where would a PF ever get minutes?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Tragedy said:


> Playing under the lights of NY is gonna do more for Melo than it would've for Lebron, and I believe it still would've done a lot for lebron.
> 
> Melo is a star, but he hasn't broken out into full blown superstardom yet.
> 
> ...


I would love to see Carmelo in New York, his game has really improved over the years and really no one notices because he plays in Denver. When people start discussing wings he pretty much gets lumped into the "best of the rest" category, and he deserves a lot more than that. Of course, I'd rather see him in Boston winning the 2011 title. :bsmile:


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> Playing under the lights of NY is gonna do more for Melo than it would've for Lebron, and I believe it still would've done a lot for lebron.
> 
> Melo is a star, but he hasn't broken out into full blown superstardom yet.
> 
> ...


I don't understand how you can consider the Lakers "aging" and then list the Magic, Bulls and Celtics as impediments to winning a title in the East. Aside from Dwight Howard, the Magic have a collection of key players apart of the over 30 club and a 28-year old very injury-prone and largely irrelevant Jameer Nelson. Everyone not named Rajon Rondo on the Celtics is over 30 meanwhile the only reason the Bulls have become relevant to conversations is because of Carlos Boozer, a 29 year old that is injury prone and likely has only a handful of all-star caliber seasons left.

The West has all of the league's best young up-and-coming teams including the Blazers, Thunder, Grizzlies, Warriors and Kings without including the usual playoff suspects. It'll be much more difficult to win anything out West than it is in the East where you can still squeeze into the 8th spot having a sub .500 record.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

TwinkieFoot said:


> Cool, and when exactly has 30 been considered old in the NBA?


Players tend to break down in their early 30s. It's always been that way, especially for big men. So, yeah, having a starting lineup in its 30s makes age a concern, _especially when that lineup plays poor transition defense_. The extra age & miles aren't making them more agile. 




TwinkieFoot said:


> Oh wait, did the Lakers win that series or did they win that series? I'm pretty sure they won that series, making your point MUTE.


You know, the funniest part of this is that you're still making a malaprop but aren't intelligent enough to know it. And the Lakers beat the Suns by outscoring them, not because they played quality transition defense. Which is kind of the point. For LA to use the height advantage of the lumbering Bynum & Gasol, they need to slow the game down, to the point where they lose the height advantage. They don't have the option of speeding the game up. If they get into a single shot possession game against the Heat they're toast. There's no way they'll slow down the Miami break. This is just like 2008, people are really just refusing to understand it.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

futuristxen said:


> Why not? They have more offensive firepower. And I'm sure their defense will be more than enough to handle the Lakers.
> 
> The two biggest weaknesses for the Heat are the same as the Lakers.
> 
> ...


When did Bosh become Garnett?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I think she probably means at the 2/3. Obviously Boston's still better at the 4.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

E.H. Munro said:


> When you start citing raw FG% for perimeter players you lose. His aFG% has gone from above average to below average *(from .503 to .488), *and his scoring efficiency numbers have declined (from 1.152 PP/FGA to 1.09) despite playing on a better team. Yes, a large part of that is injury. But that's sort of what happens when you've played that many minutes and you're in your 30s. The injuries happen more often and linger longer.



HEAVENS NO!!!! NOT AN ENTIRE PERCENTAGE POINT! Someone stick a fork in Kobe, he's clearly done!!!!! On a more serious note, why would I consider aFG% when Kobe is an all-around scorer? That's like doing the same thing for LeBron James, whose very much a perimeter player but does most of his scoring in the paint. Clearly, you don't know the nature of these statistics/players. 




E.H. Munro said:


> Truly, with Andy Ironman Bynum the need for a guy that can play big minutes at the 4 is completely irrelevant. Where would a PF ever get minutes?


Reading comprehension is fundamental. Tell me where I implied Odom is irrelevant? I've considered the guy the best 6th man in the league by simple virtue of being one of the better starters in the league, if the Lakers lineup permited it.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

E.H. Munro said:


> I think she probably means at the 2/3. Obviously Boston's still better at the 4.


Ha, the day Bosh bitchs Pau is the day I cease to watch basketball. The Heat will be good, but I wouldn't say they are the C's on steroids.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

TwinkieFoot said:


> HEAVENS NO!!!! NOT AN ENTIRE PERCENTAGE POINT!


Math and English are your weak points, obviously. Is there anything you're actually good at?



TwinkieFoot said:


> On a more serious note, why would I consider aFG% when Kobe is an all-around scorer?


ummm, because he shoots three point shots? Raw FG% is really only useful when discussing guys that don't shoot treys (because then there's no difference between the raw and adjusted numbers). But if a player shoots from downtown you use the adjested number so that you can accurately evaluate him as a shooter.



TwinkieFoot said:


> That's like doing the same thing for LeBron James, whose very much a perimeter player but does most of his scoring in the paint. Clearly, you don't know the nature of these statistics/players.


You're _supposed_ to use FG% adjusted for the value of three point shots when discussing perimeter players, no matter where they score the bulk of their points. Raw FG% gives an inaccurate picture.



TwinkieFoot said:


> Reading comprehension is fundamental. Tell me where I implied Odom is irrelevant?


The point where you said that Odom getting injured was a minor concern because of Gasol & Bynum? So what you're saying is that you don't even understand what you're writing?


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Do you think Nuggets will accept this espn trade information? Does this trade beatable? How much can Nuggets improve after they acquire Eddy Curry?

The Knicks are reportedly willing to trade Danilo Gallinari as the centerpiece of a package to acquire Carmelo Anthony.

During his Tuesday show on ESPN Radio in New York, Michael Kay cited sources in reporting that the Knicks will offer Gallinari, a future first-round pick and Eddy Curry in a bid to acquire Carmelo Anthony from Denver.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Game3525 said:


> Ha, the day Bosh bitchs Pau is the day I cease to watch basketball. The Heat will be good, but I wouldn't say they are the C's on steroids.


Oh, I will, if only because of James & Wade. Bosh is obviously along for the ride here. I'm expecting Boston/LA in the finals again this year, but Boston's owners are going to need to bite the bullet in two years if they want to keep up with the Joneses.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

E.H. Munro said:


> Oh, I will, if only because of James & Wade. Bosh is obviously along for the ride here. *I'm expecting Boston/LA in the finals again this year*, but Boston's owners are going to need to bite the bullet in two years if they want to keep up with the Joneses.


To be honest, Boston may have the best chance of beating LA. People laugh at the Shaq and JO signing, but those guys can still play in limited minutes and Boston will have more guys to throw at Pau and Drew.

It wouldn't shock me if they are in the finals, but they have to get Perk back at full strength.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> I would love to see Carmelo in New York, his game has really improved over the years and really no one notices because he plays in Denver. When people start discussing wings he pretty much gets lumped into the "best of the rest" category, and he deserves a lot more than that. Of course, I'd rather see him in Boston winning the 2011 title. :bsmile:


Man, you guys got yours, and are still contenders. Please let the Knicks start getting in on this. The league needs it the same way they needed LA and Boston to become legit contenders.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

Tragedy said:


> Man, you guys got yours, and are still contenders. Please let the Knicks start getting in on this. *The league needs it the same way they needed LA and Boston to become legit contenders*.


Lmao, what about Philly they need some love as well?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Game3525 said:


> To be honest, Boston may have the best chance of beating LA. People laugh at the Shaq and JO signing, but those guys can still play in limited minutes and Boston will have more guys to throw at Pau and Drew.
> 
> It wouldn't shock me if they are in the finals, but they have to get Perk back at full strength.


Yeah, Perkins is a huge cog for them, he's dioxin for post scorers and keys Boston's break with his defensive rebounding (as well as freeing up Garnett defensively). The other thing I'm keeping my eye on is the Heat fallout, Paul & 'Melo are obviously angling to get out of their present situations, and Boston's pretty well situated to make a run at either. And either of those guys would tilt the playing field to them in any series with Miami. (Presuming that 'Melo sells his soul on the defensive end the way that Rivers asks guys to.)


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Tragedy said:


> Man, you guys got yours, and are still contenders. Please let the Knicks start getting in on this. The league needs it the same way they needed LA and Boston to become legit contenders.


My dream is CP3 in Boston and 'Melo in New York. But I'd accept 'Melo in Bosotn as a fallback position. :bsmile:


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

E.H. Munro said:


> Players tend to break down in their early 30s. It's always been that way, especially for big men. So, yeah, having a starting lineup in its 30s makes age a concern, _especially when that lineup plays poor transition defense_. The extra age & miles aren't making them more agile.


As much as this may be the case, the dropoff is not much and mind you, the Lakers have shown no dropoff; in case you forgot, they won the past 2 championships. There are exceptions to every rule (see Grant Hill, Jason Kidd and Steve Nash being top players at their position despite being apart of the 35 and over club). Michael Jordan won 3 of his 6 championships in his 30's and Kobe Bryant is of that same cut. I don't know why is it difficult for you to see this time winning into the distant future.

And for all this talk about transition defense, you don't seem to understand that much of those opportunities the Lakers take away by being an effective team shooting the ball, scoring in the paint and one of the best rebounding teams in the league. How can you start a fastbreak, if the Lakers rebound a good portion of the shots they miss? How can you start a fastbreak when the Lakers score much of their points in the half-court, thereby giving their defense a chance to set up on the other end of the floor? Riddle me that.





E.H. Munro said:


> You know, the funniest part of this is that you're still making a malaprop but aren't intelligent enough to know it. And the Lakers beat the Suns by outscoring them, not because they played quality transition defense. Which is kind of the point. For LA to use the height advantage of the lumbering Bynum & Gasol, they need to slow the game down, to the point where they lose the height advantage. They don't have the option of speeding the game up. If they get into a single shot possession game against the Heat they're toast. There's no way they'll slow down the Miami break. This is just like 2008, people are really just refusing to understand it.


And you are looking unintelligent by using words you don't know the proper meaning of i.e. "malaprop." What you fail to understand that in spite of all this talk about the Lakers being a "poor transition defense team," they fair just about the same as most teams defensively against the Phoenix Suns of the world. Giving up 1 extra basket per game than what a team averages, is not "poor" defense in my book. If you also actually played the game, you'd know that the Lakers style of play in and of itself makes it difficult to get out in transition (refer to the aformentioned comments made earlier). The Heat are going to be a great team but certainly don't have any inherent advantages against the Lakers in terms of style of play.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

I tried to be nice and simply remove the infractionable remark, but you decided to push your luck



E.H. Munro said:


> ummm, because he shoots three point shots? Raw FG% is really only useful when discussing guys that don't shoot treys (because then there's no difference between the raw and adjusted numbers). But if a player shoots from downtown you use the adjested number so that you can accurately evaluate him as a shooter.You're _supposed_ to use FG% adjusted for the value of three point shots when discussing perimeter players, no matter where they score the bulk of their points. Raw FG% gives an inaccurate picture.


Cool, and then all this might be relevant.....if the difference we're talking about wasn't 1% percentage point for a player still regarded as one of the top 2 best players in the league.



E.H. Munro said:


> The point where you said that Odom getting injured was a minor concern because of Gasol & Bynum? So what you're saying is that you don't even understand what you're writing?


Once again, reading comprehension is key in all of this. I'm sure a little common sense couldn't hurt. I never implied that Odom was irrelevant because of who was playing ahead of him. I merely mentioned Gasol in order to make the point that it would not be necessary for Odom to log major minutes; having already established he'd see no minutes at the 3 with Matt Barnes in the fold. What was the purpose in doing so? The exchange was started by a poster who thought Odom would be susceptible to some type of fatigue-based injury, playing all summer with team USA.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

TwinkieFoot said:


> As much as this may be the case, the dropoff is not much and mind you, the Lakers have shown no dropoff; in case you forgot, they won the past 2 championships.


And still played poor transition defense. It wasn't until they got to play multi-shot possessions against Boston that they took control of the series. They were losing when the games were of the single-shot possession variant.



TwinkieFoot said:


> There are exceptions to every rule (see Grant Hill, Jason Kidd and Steve Nash being top players at their position despite being apart of the 35 and over club). Michael Jordan won 3 of his 6 championships in his 30's and Kobe Bryant is of that same cut. I don't know why is it difficult for you to see this time winning into the distant future.


Because I don't expect the entire Lakers starting lineup to be exceptions to the rule. Something that can be expected given the amount of quickness that Artest has lost over the last couple of years.



TwinkieFoot said:


> And for all this talk about transition defense, you don't seem to understand that much of those opportunities the Lakers take away by being an effective team shooting the ball, scoring in the paint and one of the best rebounding teams in the league.


_Again_, could you please explain to me just what exactly this magical pace is? The one _just_ fast enough to keep the Heat's tall guys off the floor, but so slow as to allow the lumbering Bynum and Gasol to control the game?



TwinkieFoot said:


> THow can you start a fastbreak, if the Lakers rebound a good portion of the shots they miss?


Prior to the Perkins injury they weren't. Which was the point. In Miami's case, if LA grinds the pace to the halfcourt, then the Heat get to put taller guys on the floor, reducing LA's height advantage and second shot opportunities. If they open things up to get Igor off the floor, they risk allowing James & Wade to run wild. To beat Miami a team is going to need to play killer transition D.



TwinkieFoot said:


> And you are looking unintelligent by using words you don't know the proper meaning of i.e. "malaprop."


*Malaprop* _n._ the mistaken use of a word in place of a similar-sounding one, often with unintentionally amusing effect, as in, for example, “your point is _mute_” (instead of _moot_). 

A more intelligent person would have kept his mouth shut rather than waving his red flag of ignorance. Congratulations.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Ballscientist said:


> Do you think Nuggets will accept this espn trade information? Does this trade beatable? How much can Nuggets improve after they acquire Eddy Curry?
> 
> The Knicks are reportedly willing to trade Danilo Gallinari as the centerpiece of a package to acquire Carmelo Anthony.
> 
> During his Tuesday show on ESPN Radio in New York, Michael Kay cited sources in reporting that the Knicks will offer Gallinari, a future first-round pick and Eddy Curry in a bid to acquire Carmelo Anthony from Denver.


I'm a Knick fan and if I'm the Nuggets, I don't make that trade. They are not going to lose Melo for nothing if he walks next year and could easily acquire Danilo in a sign and trade at that point. Why give up on a competitive team this season then?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

TwinkieFoot said:


> Cool, and then all this might be relevant.....if the difference we're talking about wasn't 1% percentage point for a player still regarded as one of the top 2 best players in the league.


503 – 488 ≠ 1



TwinkieFoot said:


> Once again, reading comprehension is key in all of this. I'm sure a little common sense couldn't hurt. I never implied that Odom was irrelevant because of who was playing ahead of him. I merely mentioned Gasol in order to make the point that it would not be necessary for Odom to log major minutes; having already established he'd see no minutes at the 3 with Matt Barnes in the fold. What was the purpose in doing so? The exchange was started by a poster who thought Odom would be susceptible to some type of fatigue-based injury, playing all summer with team USA.


A little math lesson. There are 82 games in a season, meaning that the minimum amount of minutes that a team needs at the 4/5 is 7872 {82 x (48x2)}. Last year represented Fat Andy's career high in minutes, when he played 1977 minutes, or approximately one fourth of all the necessary minutes at the 4/5. Last year Pau Gasol played 2403 minutes, or approximately 30.5% of the necessary minutes at the 4/5. Unless you expect the oft-injured Baby Shaqapotamus to suddenly go uninjured for the first time in his career, then yes, their primary backup at the 4/5 is going to log significant minutes next year. Sort of like last year when Odom played the most minutes of any of the three. So, given age, mileage, a summer of playing for Team USA, then it's going to be a concern.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Really interesting to see how Amare/Melo would work. They would really need a great point guard to make that work IMO. A lot of pressure on Felton to make that work until the Knicks could get Paul or Tony Parker.

Who do you think is better, the Bulls or the Knicks with Melo?


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Bulls would be better, but Knicks would probably more exciting team to watch.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

If Melo goes to New York, we will see that NY-Miami rivalry heat up again, like no other! Would be awesome to watch those two at it again.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Melo cannot handle the NY spot light...I am not talking about social life either...the media arent as forgiving


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

I dont think he'll have much problem with the NY spotlight. He's gotten most of his bad habits out of his system.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

I think in order for Melo to have the best chance @ winning, he either needs to go somewhere with incredible balance(like a chicago or boston) or he needs to go somewhere where he wouldn't be the best player and D's wouldn't key on him(like an Orlando, or maybe teaming with Paul somehow)... Right now, i can see how NY is appealing to him for his brand and as far as the excitement of the city and his hometown area, but in terms of winning I think Orlando or Chicago might be best long term options. Chicago is young and would be the most talented 1-5 while Orlando would team him up w/ the best running mate... Both NY and Boston would not be bad options, but probably aren't the BEST options purely in basketball sense. But I may be biased


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Carmelo needs to stay in Denver. Denver management has done a good job of consistently getting assets and maximizing his production about where it belongs (unlike Cleveland and New Orleans). Carmelo is just not going to be the best player on a team that's expected to win a title. He's not LeBron, Paul, Wade, Dwight, Kobe.

No doubt he'd be more recognizable to a general sports fan as a Knick, but if he's consistently winning 55 games and losing to the Heat he's going to be known as the Heat's bitch along with Amare, and continuously get trashed. Look what they do to A-Rod...and Melo is no A-Rod in the first place. He's putting himself in a position where he's going to be expected to be a franchise player in a media cesspool and it just won't work out. 

I think all this is a case of him wanting to do what his friends did but he's not good enough to engender the same chase or be the man on a team with pressure to win *now.* Leaving Denver would be a mistake for him.


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## Futurama_Fanatic (Jul 21, 2005)

why does god keep editing your posts?

as for Melo, i don't think the current Knicks team would be an improvement over his current team. i think he'd fair better with the bulls with Rose and Boozer


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## Wilmatic2 (Oct 30, 2005)

Melo in Orlando?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I will wait to see Miami on the court before crowning them, but I simply don't see how they wouldn't win the championship barring injury. They're going to be better than (some) people think, mainly on the defensive end. Offensively, they will be damn near unstoppable if guys like Miller and Chalmers fill the role of spot up shooters to create spacing. Even Z, Bosh and Haslem are all capable of hitting 15 footers, which should clear the lane even more. 

I'm anxious to see them play, and I honestly can't stray from picking the Lakers until I do, but Lakers have a team to be very worried about.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I would love to see Melo in New York with Amare, and Paul in Orlando with Dwight. It would kill the rest of the east outside of the top 4-5 teams, but it would make for some wars between the powerhouses.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Sigh, some of us like watching regular season games not just the playoffs


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

HB said:


> Sigh, some of us like watching regular season games not just the playoffs


Like I said, if I was a Nets fan, I wouldn't want that either. Or a fan of the other 25 teams in the league. It's not good for parity, but it would make for some killer matchups.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Hey we should just skip to the playoffs then because we want to see 'killer' matchups...this is just some bull. Its one thing for stars to bolt from teams that arent trying to win, but to move because you are jealous of what your buddies are doing...punk ass move.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

It makes for great regular season matchups too. I'm sorry but Denver-New Orleans doesn't do much for me when it's basically Paul vs. Carmelo and a couple of decent players. Flip that into Orlando vs. New York with those two incorporated and it's a lot more interesting. That aside, I just dislike one man teams. I would much rather sacrafice some parity to see multiple all-stars on one team, than watch teams with one great player and a bunch of scraps.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

i think bucher broke this news. if i remember correctly he said that kobe had played his last game in a lakers jersey. ill believe it when i see it


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

What one man team are we talking about? Pundits for the last 3 or so years consistently put the Nuggets on top as one of the best teams in the league. Heck I remember a year or two ago, the folks on TNT said they had the best starting five in basketball. Dont pull that one man team crap, lets not make excuses for these punks. Melo had plenty talent to play with. You think Wade, Bron or Kobe couldn't win with that roster? Puhhhlease!


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Denver had a roster of Billups, Nene, K-Mart, Birdman, JR, Lawson, Afflalo, outside of Melo. That's a pretty strong supporting cast of players. You can't play the "playing with bums" card here. It doesn't fly. The Nuggets have never missed the playoffs in Melo's tenure.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Oh well at least we know the fans of the stars and fans of the teams now


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Melo has had a good team, even though a lot of times they're all hurt, but 3 of the top 4 players in the league played on one man teams last season. That's worse to me than lack of parity.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

HB said:


> Oh well at least we know the fans of the stars and fans of the teams now


I'm a fan of the stars and a fan of a couple teams. You don't have to be one or the other.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

HB said:


> Hey we should just skip to the playoffs then because we want to see 'killer' matchups...this is just some bull. Its one thing for stars to bolt from teams that arent trying to win, but to move because you are jealous of what your buddies are doing...punk ass move.


You mad?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Somehow if Carmelo signed with the Nets I think the punkass aspect would dissappear from HB's analysis.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Lol or Orlando provided VC is still on the team...you might not get me commenting on it anymore, but I wont argue with the punk aspect of the move.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

HB said:


> Hey we should just skip to the playoffs then because we want to see 'killer' matchups...this is just some bull. Its one thing for stars to bolt from teams that arent trying to win, but to move because you are jealous of what your buddies are doing...punk ass move.


He's a punk because he realizes he's not going to beat L.A. or Miami in Denver and wants to surround himself with better teammates so that he can take them on? Gotcha.


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## Attila (Jul 23, 2003)

At least Lebron waited until he was a free agent. I'm a fan of Melo, but don't care for how he's handling this.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

It's going to be funny seeing one of these teams not make it past the conference finals and then all the handwringing will begin. There's no such thing as a sure thing in sports (especially when random events like injuries can occur).

Since all of these guys can't play on the same team, how do you resign yourself to the idea that you didn't win. Do you decide to quit the game entirely?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HKF said:


> Since all of these guys can't play on the same team, how do you resign yourself to the idea that you didn't win. Do you decide to quit the game entirely?


:laugh: WTF are you even talking about anymore


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Well if Melo wasn't seriously considering leaving he would be signing that extension. That is what makes the most sense. It seems reasonably clear that he's trying to take that extension somewhere else, most likely on the East Coast.


Going into the 2011-12 season without a contract would likely be a foolish thing to do, so if he intended to stay in Denver he'd obviously sign that extension


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> :laugh: WTF are you even talking about anymore


Well, it seems like all they talk about is competing for a championship, but getting to the conference finals is now seemingly looked at like missing the playoffs in the eyes of these superstars. I love Melo's game, but honestly, only two teams can get to the Finals each year and only one can win per year. How do you resign yourself to losing next year even on a super team? 

For example, say Melo ends up on the Bulls and they don't get out of the East. What is the difference? This stuff has to be less about basketball and more about celebrity, because from a basketball perspective I'm confused.


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## S.jR. (May 18, 2010)

Do yourself a favor and go to the Bulls!


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

HKF said:


> For example, say Melo ends up on the Bulls and they don't get out of the East. What is the difference?


The difference is that if Carmelo went into a series with Miami as a Chicago Bull, he could realistically believe his team could win, knowing he has Rose, Noah, Boozer, etc. 

You're right that Denver isn't even a bad situation, but hypothetically, some of the superstars don't even have hope to compete because their teams are so overmatched. That kills the competitive spirit. 

These guys want to win, but if they can't win, they atleast want to legitimately compete. Chris Paul going into a series against the Lakers is a hopeless situation for him. There is no hope for the Hornets winning that series. Lakers will absolutely dominate 4 of 5 positions and bench. Is it wrong for Paul to want to be able to play in a more evenly matched series against the Lakers? Surely not, and if your franchise is struggling to make that happen, of course these guys will get restless.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> The difference is that if Carmelo went into a series with Miami as a Chicago Bull, he could realistically believe his team could win, knowing he has Rose, Noah, Boozer, etc.
> 
> You're right that Denver isn't even a bad situation, but hypothetically, some of the superstars don't even have hope to compete because their teams are so overmatched. That kills the competitive spirit.
> 
> These guys want to win, but if they can't win, they atleast want to legitimately compete. Chris Paul going into a series against the Lakers is a hopeless situation for him. There is no hope for the Hornets winning that series. Lakers will absolutely dominate 4 of 5 positions and bench. Is it wrong for Paul to want to be able to play in a more evenly matched series against the Lakers? Surely not, and if your franchise is struggling to make that happen, of course these guys will get restless.


I don't even think it's that, because losing is losing. Lebron's team were a real contender regardless of what his fans will tell you. Those teams didn't win 60 games by accident. See when a guy is consistently winning 50+ games a year, you can't say they didn't have help.

It's like people saying Steve Nash deserves a title, even though he's played with more talent than anyone in the last six years. Why does anyone deserve a title?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I think his agent is advising him to try that sign and trade me strategy so he can have his contract within this CBA. Who knows what's going to go down after the lockout. I wouldn't read too much into his contract demands past that.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

HKF said:


> I don't even think it's that, because losing is losing. Lebron's team were a real contender regardless of what his fans will tell you. Those teams didn't win 60 games by accident. See when a guy is consistently winning 50+ games a year, you can't say they didn't have help.


Losing is losing in the end, but you're looking at it from the outside. When you're playing on a great team with great teammates, you're going into the season hopeful and realistically expecting to win a title. When your teammates aren't so good, it has to be frustrating knowing your ceiling is still another teams basement no matter how hard you compete. LeBron's team was a real contender because of LeBron. He could literally have gone to any other of the 29 teams and produced the same result. So I don't know how good the team was. Mo and Antawn were awesome in the regular season. Both disappeared in the playoffs and in Mo's case he vanished badly both years.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Mo's never played well in the postseason. He's a 5'11" Wally Szczerbiak Szczuperstar. If that's the best the Cavs can do in seven years for a running mate I can't blame James for deciding enough's enough. I'm not sure the motivation's the same for 'Melo, though. He just might be an east coast guy.


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

Carmelo is probably going to be traded with other pieces say Billups. Then the Nuggets can look to their younger players to step up. And wait for KMarts contract to expire or be traded as well.

Knicks and Clippers might have the best chance.

Though the Nuggets shouldve done this earlier so they didnt have to take expirings back in return.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

hroz said:


> Carmelo is probably going to be traded with other pieces say Billups. Then the Nuggets can look to their younger players to step up. And wait for KMarts contract to expire or be traded as well.


Billups is the guy that really becomes interesting if Carmelo is moved because Denver's basically forced to commit to a rebuild unless they get a great return somehow. A soon-to-be-34 year old point guard with $27million+ coming to him in the next two years makes no sense for a rebuilding team with Ty Lawson waiting in the wings. 

Boston could offer a package of expiring contracts in Glen Davis, Marquis Daniels, and a S+T Scalabrine packaged with draft picks. The Lakers don't have much in the way of young talent, but could offer Bynum with expirings in the form of Vujacic and Morrison packaged with two first round picks for Billups and Nene. Orlando and Chicago don't really make natural trade partners in a Billups-only deal, but could get creative with a three-team arrangement.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

No way the Lakers would move Bynum for Billups. Bynum is still only 23 years old.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

HKF said:


> No way the Lakers would move Bynum for Billups. Bynum is still only 23 years old.


Yeah, but Billups may play as many games over the next two years as Bynum does over the next five. :bsmile:


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

HKF said:


> No way the Lakers would move Bynum for Billups. Bynum is still only 23 years old.


Probably, but turning him into Nene and Billups maximizes their chances at additional titles during Kobe's remaining prime(he's slightly post-prime now, but you know what I mean). If you believe that Bynum is a guy they can build around post-Kobe that's one thing, but I'd hesitate to say that he'll definitely be in the NBA at thirty with his history of chronic knee problems.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

Knicks, Rockets and Nets are his preferred destination according to this

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20.../carmelo.trade.interest/index.html?xid=si_nba

Martin/Jeffries/6mil trade exception/Hill/Knicks pick for Melo and a filler.


EDIT: We're in the age where Kwame Brown can get you Pau Gasol and a trade exception can get you Al Jefferson.

Battier/Jeffires/6mil trade exception/Hill/Knicks pick for Melo and Birdman

then Battier buys out and returns to the Rockets.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Carmelo Anthony isn't the savior of Denver Sports. He didn't grow up in Bolder and is now saying hates people that live in Denver. He's not going on National Television to proclaim (in the third person) that he will be taking his talents to the big apple. He's not claiming that he spoils people, even his family his the way he performs on and off the court. He didn't confiscate videotape of him being dunked on by a 2nd round draft pick. He didn't walk off the court at the WCF before shaking the kobe's hand and wishing him luck in the next round. He didn't get on television again the next day and say that he didn't shake hands because he's a winner. 

All Carmelo did was not sign an extension.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

At least Mike Brown wasn't recovering from god damn cancer though, pretty ****ty deal for George Karl and the rest of the Nuggets 

Can you imagine if LeBron did that with Brown recovering from cancer though? The hate would be incredible if its not already.


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## eddymac (Jun 23, 2005)

At least he is handling this better than LeBron. He isn't leading Denver on into thinking they have a chance to re sign him. However unless Carmelo is coming to the Nets I dont want him in the eastern conference.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Duck34234 said:


> Carmelo Anthony isn't the savior of Denver Sports. He didn't grow up in Bolder and is now saying hates people that live in Denver. He's not going on National Television to proclaim (in the third person) that he will be taking his talents to the big apple. He's not claiming that he spoils people, even his family his the way he performs on and off the court. He didn't confiscate videotape of him being dunked on by a 2nd round draft pick. He didn't walk off the court at the WCF before shaking the kobe's hand and wishing him luck in the next round. He didn't get on television again the next day and say that he didn't shake hands because he's a winner.
> 
> All Carmelo did was not sign an extension.


LeBron didn't grow up in Cleveland, he grew up in a rival town which doesn't like Cleveland. It's similar to which borough you're from in New York or what part of L.A. you're from. People from Cincinnati and people from Cleveland don't even get along either.

LeBron didn't declare his decision in third person. The videotape confiscation was so overblown and the dunk was a joke.

And there is actual material to hate Melo for not the psychotic reasons you listed for LeBron. Melo has actually been arrested. Carrying weed on an airplane, driving under the influence, appearing in stop snitching street videos, and throwing bitch punches and running are all enough reason to hate him. Those are legitimate reasons unlike hating on a guy for a lack of humility.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Adam said:


> And there is actual material to hate Melo for not the psychotic reasons you listed for LeBron. Melo has actually been arrested. Carrying weed, driving under the influence, appearing in stop snitching street videos, and throwing bitch punches and running are all enough reason to hate him. Those are legitimate reasons unlike hating on a guy for a lack of humility.


Agreed, Melo's always been one of the least likable NBA stars for me not only for his ****ty history but lack of mental toughness since he has a tendency to meltdown and pouts to the point of losing. And now he's basically screwing over George Karl whose still recovering from cancer and a 50+ win Nuggets team, yeesh.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

See this is what I dont get, and maybe the folks who seem to know how I would feel if he went to the Nets can chime in on this...

How the heck is going to the Nets a better situation than Denver? At most they are just a 2nd round playoff team with him...how is that any better than the situation in Denver?


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## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20.../carmelo.trade.interest/index.html?xid=si_nba

Melo would consider Houston and New Jersey...


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

NOFX22 said:


> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20.../carmelo.trade.interest/index.html?xid=si_nba
> 
> Melo would consider Houston and New Jersey...


If this is true, Melo is a lock to be a Rocket.

Why? There is no way that Nets and Knicks can offer better deal than Rockets.

1, All 3 teams can save Nuggets $12M this year,

2. Rockets have more young trade chips and better future picks.

3. Rockets are obviously better teams than Nets and Knicks; Nets and Knicks are overrated on this board because they don't have any defensive players.


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## VBM (Jul 2, 2010)

Nets have an endless cash flow though...one of the perks of a billionaire running the organization. I'm surprised Houston is an option...no guarantee that Yao finishes the season or lasts beyond this year.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

What expiring contract do the Rockets have? 

The Nets have Murphy and they do have some young talent too. Besides why would the Nuggets deal him to another WC team?


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

HB said:


> What expiring contract do the Rockets have?
> 
> The Nets have Murphy and they do have some young talent too. Besides why would the Nuggets deal him to another WC team?


J

Rockets expiring contracts: Battier, Jeffries and Hayes.

Rockets are likely to offer: Trade Exception 6.3 mil, Battier, Jordan Hill, Pat Pat and two Knicks 1st picks for Melo and a bad contract.

Knicks will not come up with something like this. How about Nets?


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Nets can prepare a proposal to defeat Rockets: Offer Favors and Lopez for Melo.

Will Melo play for Nets after the deal? 

Can Nets defeat Heat without Favors and Lopez?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Lopez isnt going anywhere...its most likely Twill, Murphy and some picks


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

I don't think any team will be able to offer a better package than the Nets. At least not the Knicks or Rockets.

I'd think it would be something like Troy Murphy, Terrence Williams, Nets 1st, Golden State 1st, and a 2nd or two. Maybe Outlaw depending on when the deal is discussed.

P.S. And HB, there's no way that that is only a 2nd round team in the East. Lopez/Favors/Melo/Morrow/Harris with Outlaw as a 6th man is a very good lineup. That team can put up a fight against anyone in the East.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HKF said:


> Well, it seems like all they talk about is competing for a championship, but getting to the conference finals is now seemingly looked at like missing the playoffs in the eyes of these superstars. I love Melo's game, but honestly, only two teams can get to the Finals each year and only one can win per year. How do you resign yourself to losing next year even on a super team?
> 
> For example, say Melo ends up on the Bulls and they don't get out of the East. What is the difference? This stuff has to be less about basketball and more about celebrity, because from a basketball perspective I'm confused.


Your logic is still fundamentally flawed. That's like saying he might as well play for the Pacers since the Bulls and Pacers both aren't as likely as the Heat or Celtics to be int he Finals. 

It's about getting on a team with a *stronger* chance, I don't see how you're missing this.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Ballscientist said:


> J
> 
> Rockets expiring contracts: Battier, Jeffries and Hayes.
> 
> ...


Rockets are highly unlikely to offer that deal because, if I remember correctly, trade exceptions cannot be combined with other players to get to a salary requirement. Also, the Nuggets don't really have anything in the way of bad contracts, the worst being Chris Anderson for four years at about $4.5 per, but he's worth that. Lastly, the Rockets don't have two Knicks picks, they have the right to swap picks next year and the 2012 pick. However, the right to swap picks becomes worthless if Denver commits to a rebuild. The Rockets could put together an attractive package, but the Knicks and Nets can both trump them if they make both Gallinari and Randolph or Brooke Lopez available.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

HB said:


> Lopez isnt going anywhere...its most likely Twill, Murphy and some picks


Why would Denver take back worse than Kevin Martin & Jordan Hill for 'Melo?


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

HB said:


> Lopez isnt going anywhere...its most likely Twill, Murphy and some picks


If Nets give up both Favors and Lopez for Melo, NBA might assign Brooklyn Nets to D League.

If Nets don't give up both Favors and Lopez for Melo, NBA might assign Denver Nuggets to D League next year beacause Nuggets have no qualified starters at all.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Bogg said:


> Lastly, the Rockets don't have two Knicks picks, they have the right to swap picks next year and the 2012 pick. However, the right to swap picks becomes worthless if Denver commits to a rebuild.


The right to swap picks is/would be attached to a Houston #1, not Denver's. So Houston would deal the pick, and the right to swap it. The only real worry for Denver is that New York is able to make a major midseason deal with Amare staying healthy, leading to the Knicks pick landing in the 20s.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Jakain said:


> At least Mike Brown wasn't recovering from god damn cancer though, pretty ****ty deal for George Karl and the rest of the Nuggets
> 
> Can you imagine if LeBron did that with Brown recovering from cancer though? The hate would be incredible if its not already.


Are you serious?


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> Why would Denver take back worse than Kevin Martin & Jordan Hill for 'Melo?


If Melo says he won't resign with Houston.

Personally, I won't hold my breath, but why go to houston when Yao is such a question mark?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Tragedy said:


> Are you serious?


I guess Carlos Boozer would be a good guy if Gordun Gund wasn't blind.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Tragedy said:


> If Melo says he won't resign with Houston.


The question wasn't one of whether or not he'd accept a deal to Houston, it was alleged upthread that he would. For the Rockets the clearcut pieces would be Martin and then either Hill or picks. But Nets fans seem to think that pennies on the dollar is all that Denver can get for Anthony. The coming Paul/Anthony trades are going to look a lot more like the Allen & Garnett trades than the Gashole one. 

(I'm talking in terms of general perception of talent here, to forestall Jamel, I was one of the few people here that always thought that the Grizz got the better center out of the trade, but Marc Gasol was flying under radar in 2008. So to this day the trade's viewed as a "robbery", even though the Lakers would be finishing up a threepeat if they'd dealt Fat Andy instead. Allen & Garnett, by contrast, involved highly valued assets, a top five pick and a young post player coming off a 15/10 season. Even if Jeff Green hasn't panned out to the extent that OKC hoped and Jefferson turned out to be injury prone.)



Tragedy said:


> Personally, I won't hold my breath, but why go to houston when Yao is such a question mark?


I'm just happy that it's an option. :bsmile:


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

LOL @ anyone thinking the Knicks or Nets would put together anything better than Kevin Martin and Hill. The names mentioned are laughable. As if Denver really would take Outlaw and his 7mil/year over Martin and his 10mil/yr over a shorter period of time.

Kick in the nuts to the Knicks cause the Rockets could use the pick(s) they stole.... uh.... received in the T-Mac deal.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

If Carmelo doesn't want to go to Houston he won't end up there.

People kill me acting like it's going to be an auction when you're talking an all-star player, especially considering whoever trades for him is going to be his next team for the next 8 years.

When have you ever seen a player on Melo or Paul's level traded somewhere against their will? In the past 10-15 years?

So it's less about who in general has the best offer, it's about what team on his list has the best offer. 

So far I've only seen New York and Orlando as options. I wouldn't go to Houston. If I were him I'd consider New Orleans.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Spaceman Spiff said:


> LOL @ anyone thinking the Knicks or Nets would put together anything better than Kevin Martin and Hill. The names mentioned are laughable. As if Denver really would take Outlaw and his 7mil/year over Martin and his 10mil/yr over a shorter period of time.
> 
> Kick in the nuts to the Knicks cause the Rockets could use the pick(s) they stole.... uh.... received in the T-Mac deal.


Like Dre said, he's going where he wants to go, because all he has to do is say he won't resign. The Rockets wouldn't give up Kevin Martin if they felt Melo was a one season loaner. Also, he's neeeeeeever before mentioned Houston. I feel the Denver front office had Houston added in to drive up the price for New York. If he came out and said NY, NY will lowball Denver. But by adding multiple teams it can make NY nervous. Now I won't believe he'll end up in NY via a trade, but that Orlando option Dre mentioned is pretty good too.

I'd like to see him in Orlando if it's not NY.

As for NO - wouldn't happen. They are proven spendthrifts so for that team to have TWO superstars? Just not right. Cuz then they'd nickel and dime role players.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Adam said:


> LeBron didn't grow up in Cleveland, he grew up in a rival town which doesn't like Cleveland. It's similar to which borough you're from in New York or what part of L.A. you're from. People from Cincinnati and people from Cleveland don't even get along either.
> 
> LeBron didn't declare his decision in third person. The videotape confiscation was so overblown and the dunk was a joke.
> 
> And there is actual material to hate Melo for not the psychotic reasons you listed for LeBron. Melo has actually been arrested. Carrying weed on an airplane, driving under the influence, appearing in stop snitching street videos, and throwing bitch punches and running are all enough reason to hate him. Those are legitimate reasons unlike hating on a guy for a lack of humility.


Horrendous. Stop being a homer. Kid's a punk and everyone from the country whose national anthem isn't "row, row, row your boat" knows it.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Dre™;6352049 said:


> If Carmelo doesn't want to go to Houston he won't end up there.
> 
> So far I've only seen New York and Orlando as options. I wouldn't go to Houston. If I were him I'd consider New Orleans.


So far, 
Knicks, Nets and Rockets are the real options.

Magic is guessing option (or believe to be an option)


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

I personally would like to see owners start shipping off bitching players off to some ****ty franchise that won't contend for ****. Send a message. The owners have all the power, they should start showing it.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

E.H. Munro said:


> Why would Denver take back worse than Kevin Martin & Jordan Hill for 'Melo?


Lol worse? What has Jordan Hill proven in this league? Talent wise Twill and Murphy is better than Kmart and Hill


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Dre™ said:


> If Carmelo doesn't want to go to Houston he won't end up there.
> 
> People kill me acting like it's going to be an auction when you're talking an all-star player, especially considering whoever trades for him is going to be his next team for the next 8 years.
> 
> ...


Actually his options are Houston and NJ


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Tragedy said:


> As for NO - wouldn't happen. They are proven spendthrifts so for that team to have TWO superstars? Just not right. Cuz then they'd nickel and dime role players.


It wouldn't happen but it should if Paul and Carmelo want to play together anyway. 

And an Owner that traded a player against their will risks being blacklisted by the player's agent. Not a risk worth taking, which is why, like I said it's never going to be an auction, it's going to be "where do you want to go" and work from there. 

People who say stuff like "the Owners have all the power" don't really understand the grand scheme of the industry. Only time that would happen was if it were some old 88 year old who was about to die or sell the team anyway and they wanted to stick it to some douchebag...but people with vested interest in consistently drafting, trading for and signing good players (which only a handful of agents have) know better.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Do your hw before challenging stuff*



> Should the Denver Nuggets elect to trade Carmelo Anthony, the New York Knicks are believed to be the All-Star forward's first choice for a new home. But they are not his only option.
> 
> Multiple league sources familiar with his situation told SI.com that Anthony would also be open to signing a long-term deal with Houston or New Jersey should either of those teams offer the Nuggets an acceptable trade package.
> 
> Getting Anthony, 26, to agree to an extension is the key to any deal as he can become a free agent after the 2010-11 season. Denver has offered Anthony a three-year, $65 million extension, but he has balked at signing it and is reportedly looking for a way out. Because acquiring Anthony would require a substantial offer, it is highly unlikely any team would risk making a trade without having Anthony agree to a simultaneous extension.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I'll take that L. I didn't even see that article up there earlier. 

I don't know that him on the Rockets, probably in Martin(and more)'s place, is that much better than the Nuggets. The reason I believe the Knicks have the best shot is because if the Nuggets don't work out a trade inseason, which I don't believe they will, the Knicks can just sign and trade him outright for a trade exception and keep it moving. 

The Rockets will most likely have the same team now as they do then, so if the Nuggets don't trade with them inseason there's no reason to believe they have a better shot in the offseason.

EDIT: I didn't see anything about New Jersey though, so 










stands.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Which is why I say this dude is a punk because the two teams he wants to go to arent even better than the Nuggets. I mean the Rockets have a lot of nice pieces but without Yao they are still a second round team.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

The difference is the Knicks are on the upswing whereas the Rockets probably aren't with Yao as their best player. Carmelo can go on the Knicks and build a contender.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Dre™ said:


> It wouldn't happen but it should if Paul and Carmelo want to play together anyway.
> 
> And an Owner that traded a player against their will risks being blacklisted by the player's agent. Not a risk worth taking, which is why, like I said it's never going to be an auction, it's going to be "where do you want to go" and work from there.
> 
> *People who say stuff like "the Owners have all the power" don't really understand the grand scheme of the industry.* Only time that would happen was if it were some old 88 year old who was about to die or sell the team anyway and they wanted to stick it to some douchebag...but people with vested interest in consistently drafting, trading for and signing good players (which only a handful of agents have) know better.


The owners write the checks, they get to make the rules. LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony and Dwight Howard would be mechanics, drug dealers or preachers without the NBA. Owners have NBA teams as hobbies, not primary sources of revenue. Sure, several owners (Donald Sterling) are out to turn a profit, but these teams are all just side projects for the guys with all the power.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Duck34234 said:


> The owners write the checks, they get to make the rules. *LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony and Dwight Howard would be mechanics, drug dealers or preachers without the NBA*. Owners have NBA teams as hobbies, not primary sources of revenue. Sure, several owners (Donald Sterling) are out to turn a profit, but these teams are all just side projects for the guys with all the power.


Yup, racism rears its ugly head yet again.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Duck34234 said:


> The owners write the checks, they get to make the rules. LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony and Dwight Howard would be mechanics, drug dealers or preachers without the NBA. Owners have NBA teams as hobbies, not primary sources of revenue. Sure, several owners (Donald Sterling) are out to turn a profit, but these teams are all just side projects for the guys with all the power.



That doesn't refute one thing I said.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Nah, you're right. They're more likely to be doctors, lawyers and well, preachers.

I really don't think anyone's going to deny that Dwight would be a preacher.

LeBron and Carmelo could be police officers or firefighters. Well, Carmelo's DUI and drug record might stop him from doing that. At least there'd be hope for LeBron. I suppose the marketing firm with his hometown buddies would still be a success... oh .. wait...


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Dre™ said:


> That doesn't refute one thing I said.


yeah, except for the thesis. i just gave a better argument.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

:sigh: This particular discussion is over with. I miss the old BBB so much...


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

lol


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> :sigh: This particular discussion is over with. *I miss the old BBB so much...*




:yes:


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

HB said:


> Which is why I say this dude is a punk because the two teams he wants to go to arent even better than the Nuggets. I mean the Rockets have a lot of nice pieces but without Yao they are still a second round team.


Melo is 26. It makes senses to me that all 3 teams are young (80% of them are young players). It does not make sense to me if he wants to join Spurs or Mavs.

All 3 teams can help Nugs save. Nugs are declining.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Duck34234 said:


> I personally would like to see owners start shipping off bitching players off to some ****ty franchise that won't contend for ****. Send a message. The owners have all the power, they should start showing it.


As long as contracts are guaranteed, owners do not have the power. If an owner trades a player to a bad team out of spite, that player can mail it in and collect his check with little effort. Who is the sucker now? The owner paying millions to a uninterested apathetic player.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

HB said:


> Lol worse? What has Jordan Hill proven in this league? Talent wise Twill and Murphy is better than Kmart and Hill


Only if you're smoking black tar heroin laced with PCP while gobbling hits of acid.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

What differentiates Martin from Murphy? Both put up empty stats on losing teams. Twill is a much better player than Hill. What am I missing here?


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

In the NFL you need dozens of guys to have a successful team and no one guy is all that important. This isn't the NFL. There are around 400 NBA players total and only half those guys can even impact the game in a significant fashion. There are fewer than a dozen guys who can even be considered superstars. Those guys have an inordinate amount of power. Noone is coming to see Mark Cuban act like a jackass. If you can't deal with this fact you should quit watching the NBA.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

E.H. Munro said:


> The right to swap picks is/would be attached to a Houston #1, not Denver's. So Houston would deal the pick, and the right to swap it. The only real worry for Denver is that New York is able to make a major midseason deal with Amare staying healthy, leading to the Knicks pick landing in the 20s.


It definitely works that way, with the rights attached to a specific pick instead of existing separately? I was under the impression the right to swap picks in a given year existed on its own.


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

Duck34234 said:


> The owners write the checks, they get to make the rules. *LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony and Dwight Howard would be mechanics, drug dealers or preachers without the NBA.* Owners have NBA teams as hobbies, not primary sources of revenue. Sure, several owners (Donald Sterling) are out to turn a profit, but these teams are all just side projects for the guys with all the power.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

HB said:


> What differentiates Martin from Murphy? Both put up empty stats on losing teams. Twill is a much better player than Hill. What am I missing here?


That Martin is better than Williams? And that, unlike Murphy, Jordan Hill has an NBA future?


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Duck34234 said:


> Nah, you're right. They're more likely to be doctors, lawyers and well, preachers.
> 
> I really don't think anyone's going to deny that Dwight would be a preacher.
> 
> LeBron and Carmelo could be police officers or firefighters. Well, Carmelo's DUI and drug record might stop him from doing that. At least there'd be hope for LeBron. I suppose the marketing firm with his hometown buddies would still be a success... oh .. wait...


Shut the **** up, clown.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

E.H. Munro said:


> That Martin is better than Williams? And that, unlike Murphy, Jordan Hill has an NBA future?


LOL Whut? Troy Murphy is a serviceable 15/10 player, Jordan Hill has looked lost most of his NBA tenure.

Kevin Martin is a good scorer, he has that advantage over Williams, but Williams excels at pretty much everything else than Martin. I know for sure I'd rather have Iggy than Martin and Iggy is the closest comparison to Williams in the game right now.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> Shut the **** up, clown.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

See Dre I can use them too!


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Seems like ESPN may be reading abit too deep into the situation. 



> After ESPN.com posted yet another speculative story Monday saying Anthony already has made up his mind to leave Denver, Melo weighed in on his Twitter account.
> 
> "Funny how people come up with there (sic) own analysis of a situation," he tweeted. "I tell you boy ... Unbelievable." Yes, Anthony is still leaving his options open, but he also reiterated his loyalty to Denver during a larger question-and-answer session with the media Saturday.
> 
> “I’m a Denver Nugget, man,” he said. “I’m here, I’m with the Nuggets.”


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

HB said:


> LOL Whut? Troy Murphy is a serviceable 15/10 player, Jordan Hill has looked lost most of his NBA tenure.


One of those guys just turned 23 two weeks ago, the other, whose defense is every bit as bad, has turned 30 and will be out of the NBA in 2-4 years. Yeah, clearly any rebuilding team would want the latter guy.



HB said:


> Kevin Martin is a good scorer, he has that advantage over Williams, but Williams excels at pretty much everything else than Martin. I know for sure I'd rather have Iggy than Martin and Iggy is the closest comparison to Williams in the game right now.


Iggy is also light years better than Williams, so I'm not sure what your point is. Essentially you're claiming that a defensive roleplayer and an expiring deal is the best that Denver can do if they traded Anthony. I think just about everyone out there disagrees.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

Wait, is Terrence Williams the supposed "defensive roleplayer?"

Also pretty funny that anyone is pimping Jordan Hill as anything other than a dime-a-dozen 6 pt 4 rpg PF. Hill's ceiling is about 12 ppg and 7-8 rpg. That'll be his best year. And even then he's probably at least 3 years away from that.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Thing is, Murphy's defense is just as awful, and he doesn't have the "he was a rookie" excuse. And he's on the far side of 30. So he's basically useless to a rebuilding squad. Which brings us back to the proposition that the best Denver could possibly do for Anthony is a crack whore's Andre Iguodala. I think lots of teams can top that offer.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Duck34234 said:


> Nah, you're right. They're more likely to be doctors, lawyers and well, preachers.
> 
> I really don't think anyone's going to deny that Dwight would be a preacher.
> 
> LeBron and Carmelo could be police officers or firefighters. Well, Carmelo's DUI and drug record might stop him from doing that. At least there'd be hope for LeBron. I suppose the marketing firm with his hometown buddies would still be a success... oh .. wait...


I'm sorry that you're still embarrassed by the Eastern Conference Finals and bitter that the Magic are now the second best team in their own division, but you seriously need to take a chill pill.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

Brian said:


>



Not again

:banghead:


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

E.H. Munro said:


> I'm sorry that you're still embarrassed by the Eastern Conference Finals and bitter that the Magic are now the second best team in their own division, but you seriously need to take a chill pill.


What are you, an angry post world war II vet that still thinks the japs are invading? 


For all of you who claim that the owners don't have the power, you need to grow up and enter the real world. Look at the big picture. Two years ago, Pau Gasol, Juan Carlos Navarro, Marc Gasol, Jose Calderon and Jorge Garbajosa a couple points shy of beating a team comprised of All NBA 1st and 2nd teamers. Jason Kidd, Kobe, LeBron, Carmelo, Dwight. Wade couldn't even crack the starting lineup. Four years before that, Sarunas Jasikevicius ripped apart a team of NBA players whose annual NBA salaries easily totalled over $100 million. Sure, there are many fans who follow stars, but great players don't win championships in the NBA. Great teams win championships.

Of course I will be made out to be the ignorant one in this argument, but you need to recognize that the game is growing at rapid pace and that there are talented players all across the world that are playing basketball for a lot less money. I'm not saying that they are going to do it, but owners could easily alter the rules and ever so slightly that they could make even the game's all time greats struggle. Remember the trouble Tim Duncan had in 2004? Probably didn't cross your mind at first. Most of you are all too obsessed with the here and now to take a look back in history and learn from the past. The best point against my "owners have all the power" rant was the point made about guaranteed contracts. I expect this to be a highly contentious topic in the next collective bargaining agreement, one that I expect the owners to walk away from victorious.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Man, people talk alot of crap about Knicks fans, but at least we don't overrate our players as much as other teams do (i'm looking at you nets fans).


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

jmk said:


> Wait, is Terrence Williams the supposed "defensive roleplayer?"
> 
> Also pretty funny that anyone is pimping Jordan Hill as anything other than a dime-a-dozen 6 pt 4 rpg PF. Hill's ceiling is about 12 ppg and 7-8 rpg. That'll be his best year. And even then he's probably at least 3 years away from that.


I'm well aware that other teams(for some reason) overrate Jordan Hill. Nowadays just being 6'11+ is enough reason for teams to label a guy as "manna from heaven" and pick up $5mil per.

No matter what, Martin/Hill > Murphay/Williams..... I'd rather Martin alone over Murphy/Williams


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Duck34234 said:


> What are you, an angry post world war II vet that still thinks the japs are invading?


What in the holy hell are you talking about? There's been one person in this thread race-baiting, and it's _you_. If you don't knock it off you're going to start accumulating infractions very quickly. Is that clear enough for you?


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

You guys are severely underrating Terrence Williams. Also, I'm pretty sure Troy Murphy has a 10 mil expiring contract so that should be quite appealing to the Nuggets.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Spaceman Spiff said:


> I'm well aware that other teams(for some reason) overrate Jordan Hill. Nowadays just being 6'11+ is enough reason for teams to label a guy as "manna from heaven" and pick up $5mil per.


I'm not sure that teams overrate Hill per se. It's just that Hill has the things you can't teach (height, length, & athleticism), and is still young enough to learn the things you can, and become a valuable rotation member. You really can't say that about Murphy, he's on the wrong side of thirty and plays no appreciable defense. And he doesn't even lose entertainingly (a la Al Jefferson), he just posts empty, largely invisible, numbers year in and year out.



Spaceman Spiff said:


> No matter what, Martin/Hill > Murphay/Williams..... I'd rather Martin alone over Murphy/Williams


Amen.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Brian said:


> You guys are severely underrating Terrence Williams. Also, I'm pretty sure Troy Murphy has a 10 mil expiring contract so that should be quite appealing to the Nuggets.


He's really nothing more than an expiring deal, though. So it comes down to Martin/Hill vs. Williams, and there's really no comparison here. Williams may be a solid NBA starter one day, but there's no way that he's even better than Martin, much less Martin & Hill.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

I'd much rather have Terrence Williams than Kevin Martin. K-Mart is nothing more than a one-dimensional chucker, when his shots aren't falling he has nothing else to contribute. T-Will as a rookie, already has an extremely well-rounded game (he recorded a triple double once last season and came close one or two other times) and is already the superior defender.

Terrence Williams is the truth guys, he will definitely be the better player when all is said and done.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

It's a good thing that he can do other things, given that his scoring efficiency is positively Walkerian. And that, unlike Martin, his shot is never falling. Oh, and he doesn't generate a lot of fouls and free throws either. In short, his offensive game consists of passing. And that's about it. And his "monster" rookie campaign came playing for an historically bad team, meaning that opponents were generally playing half speed most nights, making it easier for the Nets players to pad. I'm not saying that he won't one day be a decent NBA starter. But right now he isn't. Right now he's a below average NBA player.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I bet Williams probably has as good a stats as the opposing starters did. Hard to impress the official scorer by how much gatorade you drink and how many jokes you tell sitting on the bench for the entire second half.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

E.H. Munro said:


> It's a good thing that he can do other things, given that his scoring efficiency is positively Walkerian. And that, unlike Martin, his shot is never falling. Oh, and he doesn't generate a lot of fouls and free throws either. In short, his offensive game consists of passing. And that's about it. And his "monster" rookie campaign came playing for an historically bad team, meaning that opponents were generally playing half speed most nights, making it easier for the Nets players to pad. I'm not saying that he won't one day be a decent NBA starter. But right now he isn't. Right now he's a below average NBA player.


Lol how many times have you watched Terrence play? Yes I brought up the whole watch thing because I see a lot of ignant posts on here...

I mean it seems you guys have deduced how good of a player he is based on his rookie season. Again we are talking about one of the MOST naturally gifted players in the game, if he continues to improve like he should, he will undoubtedly be a better player than Kevin Martin.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

This is bump city...this is rich...


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## thaKEAF (Mar 8, 2004)

It's not like the Nuggets teams he's been on have been horrible. Since he's been there they've done a pretty good job of putting players around him. I can't knock him if wants to leave though, but he better go to a team that's one piece away from contending.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

LOL at T-Will being a better player then Martin at this point. It's simply not true.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Lol at not being able to read


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

HB said:


> LOL Whut? Troy Murphy is a serviceable 15/10 player, Jordan Hill has looked lost most of his NBA tenure.
> 
> Kevin Martin is a good scorer, he has that advantage over Williams, but *Williams excels at pretty much everything else than Martin.* I know for sure I'd rather have Iggy than Martin and Iggy is the closest comparison to Williams in the game right now.


LOL at me not being able to read? From what I can see that seems to be your opinion.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

VanillaPrice said:


> LOL at T-Will being a better player then Martin at this point. It's simply not true.


That's Net fans MO.

Like I said, people hate the Knicks and their fans, but compared to the Nets? At least Knicks fans are cynical enough not to overrate their players.

I really like Danilo Gallinari, and he has a legit chance to average 18 a game next season - but because the Knicks sucked last year, you won't hear me proclaim him as the next coming of Dirk. Nor would I say we should keep him over Melo.

And Gallinari is a better player than Williams RIGHT NOW.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Duck34234 said:


> LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony and Dwight Howard would be mechanics, drug dealers or preachers without the NBA.


And Tom Cruise would work at the post office without the invention of cameras.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

This board never changes, run to the NBA site, check up on stats and believe they know all about a player. I wrote on there, Kevin Martin is a good scorer, but he doesnt do anything else particularly well. Please tell me what is false about that statement? Meanwhile Twill was touted as a pretty good all round player coming into the league, which he actually is. So what if Kmart trumps him in that...y'all realize there is more to the game than scoring right? I said I'd rather have Igoudala than Martin...whats so crazy about that? Iggy is the closest thing to Williams in the game.

Instead of pulling the Nets fan crap thing, why not argue the points? What makes Martin the better player? He's been a mercurial scorer on lottery bound teams, you think this guy would actually be the number 1 heck number 2 option on teams contending? Puhhhleasee!!!

As for Gallo, only thing he does better than Williams is shoot 3's. Y'all are seriously sleeping on this guy's potential. He might be a better player now, but thats not for long. Avery is going to get the best out of Twill. Belee dat!


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I have the potential to **** a golden egg, but I'd be morely to find one in a jewelry store.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

And If this guy williams is that good, the nuggets will want him in return.

Because otherwise, reading these crappy proposals by nets and rockets fans, Melo has a better chance in NY.

If you were Melo and the Nuggets said we have three proposals for you

the Rockets propose: Battier/6.3 mil TE/JTaylor/AJohnson/both NYC picks or Battier/JJeffries/JTaylor/both NYC picks
The Nets propose: Murphy, T-Will, '11 Nets 1st rd pick, '12 Warriors 1st rd pick.
And the Knicks offer: Curry, Gallinari and a future first.

What do you think Melo chooses?

By the way I think all three trade proposals are silly. They aren't mine, they are actual trades proposed by members of this board.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

HB said:


> This board never changes, run to the NBA site, check up on stats and believe they know all about a player. I wrote on there, Kevin Martin is a good scorer, but he doesnt do anything else particularly well. Please tell me what is false about that statement? Meanwhile Twill was touted as a pretty good all round player coming into the league, which he actually is. So what if Kmart trumps him in that...y'all realize there is more to the game than scoring right? I said I'd rather have Igoudala than Martin...whats so crazy about that? Iggy is the closest thing to Williams in the game.
> 
> Instead of pulling the Nets fan crap thing, why not argue the points? What makes Martin the better player? He's been a mercurial scorer on lottery bound teams, you think this guy would actually be the number 1 heck number 2 option on teams contending? Puhhhleasee!!!
> 
> As for Gallo, only thing he does better than Williams is shoot 3's. Y'all are seriously sleeping on this guy's potential. He might be a better player now, but thats not for long. Avery is going to get the best out of Twill. Belee dat!


Martin wouldn't be that, but you shouldn't use that excuse since your whole basis on Terrence Williams comes from his production on largely the worst team of all time.

It's somewhat like David Lee in New York. New York stunk, so whatever the Knicks had that was good just looked better because the team sucked so much.

It's also Andrei Kirilenko syndrome. You get blinded by a player that does everything good, but sometimes doing one thing great is better.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

HB said:


> This board never changes, run to the NBA site, check up on stats and believe they know all about a player. I wrote on there, Kevin Martin is a good scorer, but he doesnt do anything else particularly well. Please tell me what is false about that statement? Meanwhile Twill was touted as a pretty good all round player coming into the league, which he actually is. So what if Kmart trumps him in that...y'all realize there is more to the game than scoring right? I said I'd rather have Igoudala than Martin...whats so crazy about that? Iggy is the closest thing to Williams in the game.
> 
> Instead of pulling the Nets fan crap thing, why not argue the points? What makes Martin the better player? He's been a mercurial scorer on lottery bound teams, you think this guy would actually be the number 1 heck number 2 option on teams contending? Puhhhleasee!!!
> 
> As for Gallo, only thing he does better than Williams is shoot 3's. Y'all are seriously sleeping on this guy's potential. He might be a better player now, but thats not for long. Avery is going to get the best out of Twill. Belee dat!


You're right. Kevin Martin is a one trick pony, it's just that his particular skill is obviously a very valuable one and he is extremely good at it. Williams, on the other hand, is extremely mediocore to bad at pretty much everything outside of passing. It doesn't make him a great all around talent like Iggy because he is marginally good at everything, because that's exactly what is he, marginally talented.

First off, have you EVER heard anyone other then a fourteen year old girl say "Puhhhleasee"? Come on man. Oh, and Williams has spent his entire career thus far on one of the worst teams in NBA history. Let's not talk about Martin's inability to get to the postseason.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Nvm


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Carmelo won't be traded anyway. I'd be very surprised to see him traded inseason or before the season. The Nuggets are going to wait this out 'til next July.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

VanillaPrice said:


> You're right. Kevin Martin is a one trick pony, it's just that his particular skill is obviously a very valuable one and he is extremely good at it. Williams, on the other hand, *is extremely mediocore to bad at pretty much everything outside of passing.* It doesn't make him a great all around talent like Iggy because he is marginally good at everything, because that's exactly what is he, marginally talented.


No. And what the **** is "extremely mediocre?" Williams isn't a great shooter. That is the only thing he could be considered "bad" at.



> First off, have you EVER heard anyone other then a fourteen year old girl say "Puhhhleasee"? Come on man. Oh, and Williams has spent his entire career thus far on one of the worst teams in NBA history. Let's not talk about Martin's inability to get to the postseason.


Yes, one rookie season getting drafted onto a team with no structure at all from top to bottom is certainly indicative of a player's aptitude for winning. Kudos.

Kevin Martin is a good scorer, but that's all he's good at, and it doesn't look like he possesses the ability to improve in any of those other areas. Right now he is the better player, but I'm not sure how long we'll be able to say that.

Terrence Williams was only a rookie last year, but he showed the ability to be a fantastic rebounder for his size, a great passer with very good court vision, and a top notch athlete. Does he have stuff to work on? Of course he does. At times he can be out of control and he needs to work on his form and shot selection. But his ceiling is extremely high. This season will be very telling for him, and if you haven't even seen the guy play (which is obvious when you say he is only good at passing), then reserve judgment until you actually do see him play. He's an extremely exciting player and he's only going to get better.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

HB said:


> Lol how many times have you watched Terrence play? Yes I brought up the whole watch thing because I see a lot of ignant posts on here...
> 
> I mean it seems you guys have deduced how good of a player he is based on his rookie season. Again we are talking about one of the MOST naturally gifted players in the game, if he continues to improve like he should, he will undoubtedly be a better player than Kevin Martin.


Dude, the man's aim is so bad it will be a miracle if he ever has kids...


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

HB said:


> This board never changes, run to the NBA site, check up on stats and believe they know all about a player. I wrote on there, Kevin Martin is a good scorer, but he doesnt do anything else particularly well. Please tell me what is false about that statement? Meanwhile Twill was touted as a pretty good all round player coming into the league, which he actually is.


Except that he really isn't a good all round player because he couldn't score on Paris Hilton with a bottle of Patron and an eightball of coke. In order to be a good all round player, you have to kind of be good at everything. Williams isn't. He might never be. 



HB said:


> I said I'd rather have Igoudala than Martin...whats so crazy about that? Iggy is the closest thing to Williams in the game.


Iggy is also about 28 times the player that Williams is. I really don't care that Williams is a crack whore's Iguodala.



HB said:


> What makes Martin the better player? He's been a mercurial scorer on lottery bound teams, you think this guy would actually be the number 1 heck number 2 option on teams contending? Puhhhleasee!!!


One of those two guys played on a winning team last year, the other one played on an historically awful one. The guy playing on the historically awful team, against opposition that was generally halfhearted, posted mediocre numbers. He couldn't even successfully pad his scoring stats against opponents that were treating the games like exhibition games. So, yeah, colour me skeptical that Williams is _ever_ near as good as Iguodala.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Not from what I saw during summer league...which is why I keep comparing him to Iggy, their progression is kinda similar.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

E.H. Munro said:


> *Except that he really isn't a good all round player because he couldn't score on Paris Hilton with a bottle of Patron and an eightball of coke. In order to be a good all round player, you have to kind of be good at everything. Williams isn't. He might never be. *


*




When he wasn't getting to the rim, Williams was showcasing his midrange jumper. Last season, Williams ranked neared the bottom of the League amongst guards in jump shooting efficiency off the dribble, but knocked down pull-up shot and pull-up shot after some struggles early. Williams seems to have developed a rhythm that he's especially comfortable with when attacking off the dribble with his right hand, but made some shots going left as well. Still erratic with his shot selection, Williams still needs to develop his catch and shoot game to become a complete off-ball threat offensive, but he showed significant improvement in arguably his weakest area in Orlando.

From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/blog/NB...10-Orlando-Player-Profiles-3531#ixzz0x5ZHvU8K
http://www.draftexpress.com

Click to expand...

We watch games, you read stats...again from what I saw of him, he has added a few tricks to his offensive repertoire, particularly a mid range floater. See players develop, some of us believe that, others not so much.




Iggy is also about 28 times the player that Williams is. I really don't care that Williams is a crack whore's Iguodala.

Click to expand...

Thank goodness going by what you have posted so far, you know little to nothing about Williams so I wont sweat this. Weird how guys from outside NJ seem to think he is due for a break out season though





One of those two guys played on a winning team last year, the other one played on an historically awful one. The guy playing on the historically awful team, against opposition that was generally halfhearted, posted mediocre numbers. He couldn't even successfully pad his scoring stats against opponents that were treating the games like exhibition games. So, yeah, colour me skeptical that Williams is ever near as good as Iguodala.

Click to expand...

Lol the Rockets were a good team before Martin got there, he got traded to a nice situation, no mention of his other team, interesting! How about the fact that the Kings got worse when Martin returned from injury, or the fact that they werent doing so hot when he was healthy? I like the way you framed it like this guy was responsible for the Rockets doing well. Good one munro. As for Williams, his rookie season was somewhat disappointing, showed flashes of brilliance, and thank goodness it seems pundits outside of NJ noticed or else you guys on here might just get away with murder.

Bottom line, I am not sure Denver takes either guy.*


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

HB said:


> We watch games, you read stats...again from what I saw of him, he has added a few tricks to his offensive repertoire, particularly a mid range floater. See players develop, some of us believe that, others not so much.


The funny part about this, is that you're accusing me of "just reading stats" while citing another _Mr. Baseball_ post from the DX guys. (Why, he leads the league in jump shots going to his right on the third Tuesday of every month!) The reality is that he shot his _ossum_ mid range jumper even worse than I thought he did. Just to be certain that my eyes weren't lying I looked up his shot chart. It's not pretty. As in sub .300 ugly. So colour me a little skeptical about his play against D-leaguers in Orlando being indicative of his _ossumness_ going forward.



HB said:


> Lol the Rockets were a good team before Martin got there, he got traded to a nice situation, no mention of his other team, interesting! How about the fact that the Kings got worse when Martin returned from injury, or the fact that they werent doing so hot when he was healthy?


Were you not paying attention last year when we were all debating whether or no an Evans/Martin backcourt could work? I was on the negative side of the occasion because I tend to think that Evans needs to be the 2, even if he's running the offense.



HB said:


> I like the way you framed it like this guy was responsible for the Rockets doing well.


Could you point out to me where I actually said that? You said that Martin has only ever padded numbers on bad teams, but, in fact, he played part of last year on a winning team, and rang up his numbers, which were good, against opponents playing full speed. Whereas Williams rang up poor numbers over the course of an 82 game exhibition season. That was what I said, and exactly what I meant, nothing more nor anything less.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Because if I had simply told you, dude I watched his summer league games and saw marked improvement in his shooting form...you really think you'd have accepted that? Course' not...thats why I brought up someone who watches prospects for a living. And yes it was against sub par competition, but its the fact that he actually worked on it thats impressive. Shooting form isnt just going to disappear over the course of the season.

With or without Martins the Rockets were going to win 40 + games. His hollow stats wouldn't change that. The other guy was a rookie on a bad team, he's not the reason they lost so many games.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

D Gallinari: 15 pts and 5 rebs per game with terrible team - big loser

T Williams: 8 pts and 5 rebs per game with the worst team - hugh loser

Explain to me how you can add a bad contract (Merphy or Curry) to get a superstar.

Both of them play poor defense. They should sit them in the bench. Expiring contract is useless for Nuggets. Both palyers are not going to lead Nuggets to the glory. Nuggets clearly don't want both of them.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Duck34234 said:


> For all of you who claim that the owners don't have the power, you need to grow up and enter the real world. Look at the big picture. Two years ago, Pau Gasol, Juan Carlos Navarro, Marc Gasol, Jose Calderon and Jorge Garbajosa a couple points shy of beating a team comprised of All NBA 1st and 2nd teamers. Jason Kidd, Kobe, LeBron, Carmelo, Dwight. Wade couldn't even crack the starting lineup. Four years before that, Sarunas Jasikevicius ripped apart a team of NBA players whose annual NBA salaries easily totalled over $100 million. Sure, there are many fans who follow stars, but great players don't win championships in the NBA. Great teams win championships.
> 
> Of course I will be made out to be the ignorant one in this argument, but you need to recognize that the game is growing at rapid pace and that there are talented players all across the world that are playing basketball for a lot less money. I'm not saying that they are going to do it, but owners could easily alter the rules and ever so slightly that they could make even the game's all time greats struggle. Remember the trouble Tim Duncan had in 2004? Probably didn't cross your mind at first. Most of you are all too obsessed with the here and now to take a look back in history and learn from the past. The best point against my "owners have all the power" rant was the point made about guaranteed contracts. I expect this to be a highly contentious topic in the next collective bargaining agreement, one that I expect the owners to walk away from victorious.


You're right that under different rules, some of the best players wouldn't be as effective. In your scenario (using the olympics), it's when the rules neutralize athleticism where guys like LeBron and Wade struggle. Do the owners really want to risk losing the money they make off of those guys? Just for spite? The league and the team make a fortune off the (athletic) ability of those guys. 

The owners would actually lose money on that because casual basketball fans *love* highlights dunks and athletic plays. All of us purists would still watch it if those rules changed, but neutralizing the athleticism of those great players would mean losing a ton of casual fans. And that's where the majority of the money comes from. Sure you could change the rules around to suit different types of players, but those players aren't going to make you money. Owners (should) know better than to sacrafice bottom line money for spite. 

Sorry, but Luis Scola is not going to draw in the kind of money LeBron, no matter how rules you change.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

First of all what the hell is he even talking about? What does Team USA's problems have to do with Owners not being able to force a superstar somewhere against their will, which is what the discussion was about.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Dre™;6352798 said:


> First of all what the hell is he even talking about? What does Team USA's problems have to do with Owners not being able to force a superstar somewhere against their will, which is what the discussion was about.


He is saying the owners have the power because they can simply change rules and make great players less effective. Hence why the owners have the power. Then used the example of the olympics (different rules) for why great NBA players (who rely on athleticism) struggle in a halfcourt offense against a pack-it-in zone. 

It's not a good argument, because people like to watch NBA players fly down the court, make explosive moves and dunk on people. Taking that away from the league would really break the league in the eye of the casual fan.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Today's news:

Rockets offer Brooks, Martin, Jordan Hill and two Knicks picks for Melo.

Nuggets don't want expiring contract, that is why Battier is not included.

If you ask me to provide a link, you need to pay me because time is money.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> He is saying the owners have the power because they can simply change rules and make great players less effective. Hence why the owners have the power. Then used the example of the olympics (different rules) for why great NBA players (who rely on athleticism) struggle in a halfcourt offense against a pack-it-in zone.
> 
> It's not a good argument, because people like to watch NBA players fly down the court, make explosive moves and dunk on people. Taking that away from the league would really break the league in the eye of the casual fan.


That's completely out of context and irrelevant to the discussion we were having, even if true.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Ballscientist said:


> Today's news:
> 
> Rockets offer Brooks, Martin, Jordan Hill and two Knicks picks for Melo.
> 
> ...


Scientist, any news on the Magic? Are we in this race?


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AuJTAOMNcKewlle1IUn2Eaq8vLYF?slug=aw-anthonykroenke082410



> Anthony has hesitated to sign a three-year, $65 million extension and expressed intrigue with opting out of his contract next summer to become a free agent. Despite significant speculation the New York Knicks are the team that Anthony would most likely want to join, *two sources close to him insisted the Knicks have been overstated as an object of his desire. Privately, Anthony has expressed more enthusiasm over joining the Houston Rockets than the Knicks, sources said.*


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## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

Ballscientist said:


> Today's news:
> *
> Rockets offer Brooks, Martin, Jordan Hill and two Knicks picks for Melo.*
> 
> ...


If this is true, that's definitely a lot to give up. Both Aaron Brooks and Kevin Martin in the same trade? sheesh.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Ballscientist said:


> Today's news:
> 
> Rockets offer Brooks, Martin, Jordan Hill and two Knicks picks for Melo.
> 
> ...


:lol:


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Melo's not getting past the Heat. Then again he's not getting past the Lakers either. So he should just stay in Denver and at least be a beloved institution.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Dre™ said:


> Melo's not getting past the Heat. Then again he's not getting past the Lakers either. So he should just stay in Denver and at least be a beloved institution.


If Yao's healthy come playoff time? (Ginormous if, I know) I have to like the chances of a team with 'Melo, Yao, Brooks and the right roleplayers.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Ah so Bron's greasy hands are in this too lol*



> Denver was furnished with a short list of teams and told to get to work. Yes, this is how *William Wesley and Leon Rose of CAA work now*, thick with threats and ultimatums and a swagger suggesting that the sport belongs to them. After Anthony told owner-in-waiting Josh Kroenke that he still wanted out of Denver during a Sunday meeting, the Nuggets appear done trying to sell their All-Star forward on a contract extension.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I don't really understand why Melo wants out of Denver so bad. It really must be a location thing because Denver when healthy is a talented team. I don't know who he'd be traded to that has more talent unless it's Orlando, but maybe he just wants to play in New York. New Jersey would be a good fit for him in terms of talent and location.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Location yes, but the way I see it, Bron's giving his friend Jay-z something after all (okay maybe not that crazy but still...)


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I am not sure, but it's been my guess all along that Mrs Melo is the driving force behind this. Seems to me this is about what ever she does as a media personality and her ambitions in the entertainment.


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## Game (Jul 10, 2010)

Man crazy thread but what y'all think melo/smith to clippers for Aminu/clips (2012 first )/kaman and fillers to make contract work but I'm pretty sure clipps van take on money since they didn't spend any of their cap space...plus I believe Jordan could start for clips...
Baron Davis/Eric Gordon/Carmelo Anthony/Blake Griffin/Deandre Jordan that's a freakin sick lineup !!!! And Melo can be in LA and his wife can continue her tv career and he'd be on a top 5 team in west


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## Game (Jul 10, 2010)

Sorry but LALA ain't even that fine it ain't like she's Eva Langoria ...melo needs to check his chick and be like look on mirror u ain't gonna be no movie star


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## Game (Jul 10, 2010)

Also the clipps have that wolves 2012 pick that with how the wolves are playing can become Andre Drummond or another awesome high school senior that's one and done


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Melo & Lawson to Boston for Rondo, 'Sheed's retirement, Captain B-Cup for whatever it takes to make the salaries work and three million in cash to get rid of him. :bsmile:


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## Game (Jul 10, 2010)

Not sure Melo wants to go play with 
"OLD" Celtics u get rid of rondo and u got alot of old slow farts in their mid 30s 
I've heard top teams melo wants are knicks,rockets,clippers I heard just cuz it's LA I haven't heard Boston


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Game said:


> Not sure Melo wants to go play with
> "OLD" Celtics u get rid of rondo and u got alot of old slow farts in their mid 30s
> I've heard top teams melo wants are knicks,rockets,clippers I heard just cuz it's LA I haven't heard Boston


Lawson ain't in his mid 30s. And Boston would move to the top of the contenders list with 'Melo in tow.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Game said:


> Not sure Melo wants to go play with
> "OLD" Celtics u get rid of rondo and u got alot of old slow farts in their mid 30s
> I've heard top teams melo wants are knicks,rockets,clippers I heard just cuz it's LA I haven't heard Boston


So basically outside of Houston, you heard that Melo is drawn to crappy franchises? 

Hmm...


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## Game (Jul 10, 2010)

Lol pretty much the Houston the only one possible to win something but u think Davis/Gordon/melo/griffin/Jordan is a crappy team with that high 2012 wolves pick...


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## Game (Jul 10, 2010)

He must really hate Denver to pass up that 25 mill a year 3 year deal with the lockout looming...and Lawson is descent but he's not rondo... Lawson/Allen/pierce/melo/Perkins kinda small nah???lol pretty sure melo and bostons best player play same position this ain't Syracuse


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

This is not primarily about winning, I agree with Diable. It's mainly about both of them trying to become household names which is lame.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Game said:


> Lol pretty much the Houston the only one possible to win something but u think Davis/Gordon/melo/griffin/Jordan is a crappy team with that high 2012 wolves pick...


No, not a crappy team, I'm just saying the franchises...year in and year out, suck.

If I'm a star player, I have little faith in an organization like the Clippers/Knicks to make the right moves/put the right players around me, but who knows? Maybe that all changes when I get there? One can only hope.


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## Game (Jul 10, 2010)

Yeah I'm a clippers fan yes were out there and I'm hoping sterling dies lol kinda mean but **** I don't him giving away griffin in 3 years  cuz he don't wana mac him


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

I would want out of the Nuggets organization as well, they've always seem overrated to me. JR Smith just choked a guy and is on the trading block, they seem to always have key injuries and meltdowns, George Karl's sick, and members of their FO were fired and they don't even have a GM yet IIRC --- and thats just the stuff the media reports on, who knows the **** behind the scenes especially with the Thuggets...or maybe he just doesn't want his ride to get filled with buttered popcorn as part of a dumbass prank  

Houston would be interesting (although that doesn't help when it comes to team health aka Yao), more money due to no state income tax but I can see him going for the soon to be Brooklyn franchise as well since he has NY ties and they have promising talent to exchange. Southwest is going to be one hell of a conference if Melo does move down there.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Game said:


> Lawson is descent but he's not rondo...


Rondo's good, but he's not, and won't ever be, a top ten player in the NBA.



Game said:


> Lawson/Allen/pierce/melo/Perkins kinda small nah???lol pretty sure melo and bostons best player play same position this ain't Syracuse


Lawson/Pierce/'Melo/Garnett/Perkins, with Ray/Nate/the O'Neals being the primary bench players. If Ray doesn't like it we can always bundle him with Davis & Lawson and ship him to N'awlins when CP3 finally forces his way out. :bsmile:


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Lala isn't going to go anywhere in the entertainment game. It doesn't matter if she's married to Melo or hanging with Kimmy K. No one cares about her.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

The key to get Melo is how to make Nuggets a better team without Melo.

Chance analysis: 

Nets 30%

Lopez and Favors for Melo

Clippers: 29%

Al-Farouq Aminu and Blake Griffin for Melo

Rockets: 20%

Brooks, Martin, Hill and two Knicks picks

Bobcats: 20%

Michael Jordan's idea for Melo

Knicks: 1%

Eddy Curry for Melo


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

ESPN insider rumor: 4 team trades

Pistons get K-Mart expiring from Nuggets

Nuggets get Martin, Battier and 2 Knicks picks from Rockets, Rodmanovic, Wilcox, Prince

Rockets get Melo

Warriors get JR Smith


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Ballscientist said:


> ESPN insider rumor: 4 team trades
> 
> Pistons get K-Mart expiring from Nuggets
> 
> ...


Can you imagine a JR Smith-Monta Ellis backcourt pairing? They'd be an epic disaster.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Did someone really say Terrence Williams is better than Kevin Martin. What exactly is Terrence Williams good at besides passing? He's an average at best rebounder, a horrible offensive talent (45.9 TS%). Kevin Martin has been a 20 point 60 TS% scorer for the last few years. That is a pretty valuable piece to your team.

The fact of the matter is that scoring is the most important skill that a basketball player can have, followed by interior defense, and then playmaking ability.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Give him this season, after all Kmart himself wasnt exactly 'great' in his rookie season


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

A lot of this Williams nonsense is the disparity between the Nets' awful season and a young player who might have actually contributed to the solution than the problem. Big fish in a little pond syndrome.


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## Vuchato (Jan 14, 2006)

BG7 said:


> Did someone really say Terrence Williams is better than Kevin Martin. What exactly is Terrence Williams good at besides passing? He's an average at best rebounder, a horrible offensive talent (45.9 TS%). Kevin Martin has been a 20 point 60 TS% scorer for the last few years. That is a pretty valuable piece to your team.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that scoring is the most important skill that a basketball player can have, followed by interior defense, and then playmaking ability.


He's a better passer, rebounder, and defender, and his offensive production shouldn't be as bad as last year (got a lot better as the season went on, and that was without a coach). I'm a big KMart fan though, and he is better at the moment, provided he shoots better than in Houston last year.

It completely depends on what Denver wants to do after trading Anthony, though. Do they want to try and compete with Billups, Nene, and whatever they get for Melo, or do they want to just blow it up? If its the former, I'd take the guy who's better now. If its the latter, I'd take the guy who's 4 years younger, $8 million cheaper, and in the same ballpark talent-wise. From what I've read, the latter seems more likely to be what Denver wants to do, and I couldn't blame any management that wouldn't want to keep paying luxury tax for a worse team than the non-contender they were fielding last year.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

How much longer will it take Terrence Williams to cure AIDs?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

About three weeks.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

Diable said:


> How much longer will it take Terrence Williams to cure AIDs?


He already has dude.... where have you been!?


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Who is better, Tyreke Evans or Brook Lopez?

Nuggets asked Nets and Kings to offer them.

Cousins or Favors? Both of them are in the package.


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## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

I like Lopez over Reke. And didn't Cousins have a better summer league than Favors? So Cousins.


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## Xeneise (Jul 5, 2010)

Evans >>>> Lopez
Cousins >>>> Favors


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## Game (Jul 10, 2010)

Ok WTF lol are packages real yes melo is a talent but of give up tyreke,lopez,my boy Blake the great he has a 1 year deal that Thrace better come with an extension or I would touch it with a stick


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## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

Game said:


> Ok WTF lol are packages real yes melo is a talent but of give up tyreke,lopez,my boy Blake the great he has a 1 year deal that Thrace better come with an extension or I would touch it with a stick


once more in english


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I think he's saying that it was the Spartans that defeated the Persians at the Battle of Plataea, and that Carmelo & Lala offered 20k to whomever laid the smackdown on the Persian general, Blake the Great.


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## BeeGee (Jul 9, 2010)

E.H. Munro said:


> I think he's saying that it was the Spartans that defeated the Persians at the Battle of Plataea, and that Carmelo & Lala offered 20k to whomever laid the smackdown on the Persian general, Blake the Great.


Yeh that's pretty much what I got outta that too, ha.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Tyreke Evans is better than Brook Lopez?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Yes.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

HB said:


> Tyreke Evans is better than Brook Lopez?


I didn't know it was even a question. He is pretty obviously a better player at this point.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Reke > Lopez.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

lol @ this. Nets fans, I tell you.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Dre™ said:


> This is bump city...this is rich...


http://www.nba.com/2010/news/11/26/nets-williams-dleague.ap/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt2

FOH


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

why is the T-Will thread locked. News of this magnitude deserves its own thread.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> http://www.nba.com/2010/news/11/26/nets-williams-dleague.ap/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt2
> 
> FOH


Bwa hahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahhahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahhahahahaahahahahah!


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> why is the T-Will thread locked. News of this magnitude deserves its own thread.


Exactly.... I don't know either. Please have more respect for a legend.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Can we merge this with the Melo thread?


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