# Nets @ Raptors, Nov. 4th



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

<center>
















*New Jersey Nets* (0-1) @ *Toronto Raptors* (0-1)
November 4th, 2005, 7:00PM EST
The Score

<IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="KIDD, JASON" TITLE="KIDD, JASON" SRC="/img/headshots/100x150/nets/KIDD, JASON.jpg"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="CARTER, VINCE" TITLE="CARTER, VINCE" SRC="/img/headshots/100x150/raptors/CARTER, VINCE.jpg"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="JEFFERSON, RICHARD" TITLE="JEFFERSON, RICHARD" SRC="/img/headshots/100x150/nets/JEFFERSON, RICHARD.jpg"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="COLLINS, JASON" TITLE="COLLINS, JASON" SRC="/img/headshots/100x150/nets/COLLINS, JASON.jpg"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="KRISTIC, NENAD" TITLE="KRISTIC, NENAD" SRC="/img/headshots/100x150/nets/KRISTIC, NENAD.jpg">
*Jason Kidd, Vince Carter, Richard Jefferson, Jason Collins, Nenad Krstic*

<IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="JAMES, MIKE" TITLE="JAMES, MIKE" SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/speedythief/raptors/mjames0.jpg"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="ROSE, JALEN" TITLE="ROSE, JALEN" SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/speedythief/raptors/jrose0.jpg"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="GRAHAM, JOEY" TITLE="GRAHAM, JOEY" SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/speedythief/raptors/jgraham0.jpg"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="BOSH, CHRIS" TITLE="BOSH, CHRIS" SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/speedythief/raptors/cbosh0.jpg"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="WOODS, LOREN" TITLE="WOODS, LOREN" SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/speedythief/raptors/lwoods0.jpg">
*Mike James, Jalen Rose, Joey Graham, Chris Bosh, Loren Woods*</center>


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

This game should've been our home opener. Don't know why the schedule makers would put this as our second game of the season at home... probably all revolves around an effort to get Kobe and Shaq playing against each other on the right nights.

Should be a good, energetic crowd at the ACC. Probably not quite what it was when Vince first returned but lots of boo birds will be there.

Love to see Bosh get his game going against a weak Jersey frontline.


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## nwt (Apr 24, 2005)

I'm gonna skip class tomorrow to try and get tickets for this lol


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

BBBBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO






just getting ready


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

madman said:


> BBBBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL - yeah man.

I am expecting this year RAP team to be a total Jeckel and Hyde type team - loose to a bunch of low end teams and win a bunch that they should loose.

Friday might just be a rap win....


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## wind161 (Jun 19, 2005)

speedythief said:


> This game should've been our home opener. Don't know why the schedule makers would put this as our second game of the season at home... probably all revolves around an effort to get Kobe and Shaq playing against each other on the right nights.
> 
> Should be a good, energetic crowd at the ACC. Probably not quite what it was when Vince first returned but lots of boo birds will be there.
> 
> Love to see Bosh get his game going against a weak Jersey frontline.


 I think they want the game to be on a Friday, so that casual fans would make the trip.


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

Could someone tell me how Joey Graham's perimeter defense is?


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I'd bloody love to see the Raps win this game. This is an opponent in which our frontcourt "versatility" should really come into play. Honestly, with Bosh and Charlie playing at the same time, who is going to defend them? Nenad is a little slow of foot and uncle Cliffy is ancient. I'd predict the boys to go off. As much as we may dislike our "bigs" playing on the perimeter, that's where we're going to kill them.

That said, the Nets are going to come in very hungry for a victory after an opening loss and VC is going to look to dominate. I assume Joey will be on him to start and Mo Pete to finish but Rose is going to get massacred by RJ. And then there's Kidd vs doesn't matter. 

I see another close game- I see a whole lot of those this season- but they have a different breed of 4th quarter player. 

A great test for our second game. I don't think we're outmatched but we'll have to play a hell of a game to win. Carter could be their catalyst but we've seen him have plenty of off nights. 

Another exciting game but that's the great thing about today's NBA- every game has the potential for greatness. Still, this is looking like a great matchup.

PS- Some comeback the Bucks had on their back to back. They're going to be a force. Better record than the Nuggets? Why not?


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

wind161 said:


> I think they want the game to be on a Friday, so that casual fans would make the trip.


and everyone watching in the bar (and predrinking).


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

VCFSO2000 said:


> Could someone tell me how Joey Graham's perimeter defense is?


He's mastered the choke slam as the opposing shooting guard tries to go by him.


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

NETS win... im going to say Kidd will, will this team to the win making that spectacular pass, defense, or shot... they lost to the bucks which played the night before, Kidd will get the boys ready (ie. Carter and Jefferson). I predict a big game from Vincent Lamar Carter... hopefully he throws down a sick jam and gets some of those booooos to :eek8:


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## Q8i (Oct 23, 2004)

Lookin' Forwad To This Game - I Hope The Raps Win Man..
I See Jalen Rose Havin A Great Game, Cuz He Took The Blame Fo Last Game.. :clap:


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## Rollydog (Jan 24, 2004)

speedythief said:


> Love to see Bosh get his game going against a weak Jersey frontline.


I wouldn't get my hopes up. Bosh only averaged 13 ppg on 41% shooting against the Nets last season.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

am hopin a raps win here new jersey dint luk v.good against the bucks who had played the nite b4.


i cnt stay up 2nite god damn have 2 visit a friend by train tomoz for a party not appy... 


plz keep up 2 dat with the game tho as i will sneek a peek in the mornin lol


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

Rollydog said:


> I wouldn't get my hopes up. Bosh only averaged 13 ppg on 41% shooting against the Nets last season.


We'll just have to wait and see. The last two games of the season between these two teams (post-trade with both teams having their new players in the lineup), Bosh has averaged 17 PPG, 8.5 RPG, 50% FG, 2 APG, and 1.5 BPG.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

I'm expecting a big game from Jalen for this one. He played pretty well the other night, and he was really dissapointed that we lost. He put the blame solely on himself. I think he'll come out strong tonight, but I'm hoping he tries not to do too much. Also I'm hoping that Chris doesn't shy away from taking his shots early on. He did a good job of wanting to ball in the early going against the Wizards, but those shots just weren't falling for him. He should keep at it though, and come out with the same sort of game plan tonight.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Poster Board Material from some Vince lover on the Nets board



> I was going to use every gamblers rule of thumb and just double up on the bet on this game to cover my losses from last time and still come out ahead. But then I saw the incredible odds on this game and instead decided to decuple up on my bet from last game. The spread is 4! Are you kidding me?! They'll cover that every quarter. Even real sportlines are giving a ~4 point spread...I might have to break into the savings account for this game.


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## Deckie007 (Nov 1, 2005)

Nice. That's going into my sig if the Raps win tonight. Who is it from?


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Should be an interesting game, but former Raptors always seem to bring it when they come back to Toronto. I don't think we beat T-Mac more than once or twice at home when he was a Magic. We got swept by the Bulls last year (AD), and we had a pretty poor track record at home against Damon and the Blazers too...

With that said, I think we can pull this one out. Like speedy said, the Nets have a very weak frontcourt, which *should be* a good opportunity for Bosh to take control. We'll see if he can rebound from that below average game against the Wizards.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Hope to see more from Sanchez tonight. Could be great against McInnis.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Yeah, true, I hope he gets more burn in the second half, too. The entire team needs to collectively step it up, especially in this big a game.


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

speedythief said:


> Hope to see more from Sanchez tonight. Could be great against McInnis.


it may be early in the morning and my brain isnt functioning properly, but who is sanchez???? am i missing something?


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Chuck's nickname for Calderon - Dirty Sanchez


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

hey how is the hoops coverage out there?


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

The bar has satelite. Besides, I'm sure most games are shown on Sportsnet East, anyway, so it's not much of a problem, other than the fact that we don't have a TV at the house. Then again, that's where the bar comes in. I'll try catching it there tonight, like I did the opener.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Chuck's nickname for Calderon - Dirty Sanchez


lol, Chuck uses the word facial a lot without knowing it's other meaning so I doubt he knows what dirty Sanchez means. It's ansoncarter's nickname for Jose.


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## sjinto (Oct 7, 2005)

Whovever is lucky enough to be going....

Boo the hell out of Lamont Murray but leave VC alone

Not that I'm a VC lover but I think he'll just feed off the boos and end up killing us on the scoreboard


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

sjinto said:


> Whovever is lucky enough to be going....
> 
> Boo the hell out of Lamont Murray but leave VC alone
> 
> Not that I'm a VC lover but I think he'll just feed off the boos and end up killing us on the scoreboard


Who is Lamond Murray to even boo? he's a NO Body if you ask me.

but how many people here are going to the game?


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

speedythief said:


> lol, Chuck uses the word facial a lot without knowing it's other meaning so I doubt he knows what dirty Sanchez means. It's ansoncarter's nickname for Jose.


 d'oh, I coulda sworn I saw someone say Chuck said it. My bad anson -- that's what happens when you're stuck in New Brunswick. I think the cold is getting to me.


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## MjM2xtreMe (Sep 1, 2005)

The game tonight is on The Score which seems to be getting more games from the raps this year. The next game on Sportsnet will be on Monday against King James.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i'd love for calderon to get 30 mins+. i'm sure it won't happen but this player is electric, and he clearly has the ability and urge to take control of the game. he's loud, fast, confident, young, passionate and can't speak a word of english (well, maybe one or two). at the very least, i could see vince getting distracted by jose. but i don't think calderon would even look at these guys twice- "jason kidd? so what? move the ball!"

there's gonna be fire on the court tonight.

peace


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

JuniorNoboa said:


> He's mastered the choke slam as the opposing shooting guard tries to go by him.


lol


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## [email protected] (Sep 27, 2005)

speedythief said:


> lol, Chuck uses the word facial a lot without knowing it's other meaning so I doubt he knows what dirty Sanchez means. It's ansoncarter's nickname for Jose.



commandante = my preferred nickname, i wish it could stick


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Bah! There's a ****ing Habs game tonight! I'd be EXTREMELY lucky to catch this one! :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset:


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Bah! There's a ****ing Habs game tonight! I'd be EXTREMELY lucky to catch this one! :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset:


 that sucks

do u get the fan out there?


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

madman said:


> that sucks
> 
> do u get the fan out there?


 Yeah, on the internet I guess I can.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

Raptors got no offense one pass shoot one pass shoot thats seems to be the theme so far


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

Not capitalizing on the Nets turnovers...


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

the whole offense is out of wack


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## trees (Jun 11, 2003)

somebody grab a rebound


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## JS03 (Jan 5, 2005)

Terrible game. What is Rose doing???????...


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## Chris Bosh #4 (Feb 18, 2005)

Trade Rose PLEASE! Bosh with only 4 shots? Wow! Best way you can treat your franchise player. Isolate him from the offense.


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

This could get ugly.

Nets with the 14 first half TO's; we respond with a 27% FG shooting performance. And don't even mention the work on the boards.

Looking for a prettier second half.


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## [email protected] (Sep 27, 2005)

Jalen Rose for the loss.


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## Pnack (Aug 23, 2005)

*sigh*


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## JS03 (Jan 5, 2005)

> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="600"><tbody><tr class="bA"><td align="left" valign="middle"> <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td align="left" valign="middle"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="teamTitlesTwo" align="left" valign="middle">
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

why everyone blaming rose? its not like Chris Bosh didn't turn the ball over, its not like hoffa wasent out there shooting 3s, its not like bonner having a off night, its not like mike james was out there taking quick shots but sure lets blame rose for all the raps woes


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

Mr_B said:


> why everyone blaming rose? its not like Chris Bosh didn't turn the ball over, its not like hoffa wasent out there shooting 3s, its not like bonner having a off night, its not like mike james was out there taking quick shots but sure lets blame rose for all the raps woes


true, but the thing with rose is that he isnt one of our younger players....hes supposed to be a veteran for the squad and if hes starting to get into a "mano-a-mano" type of gameset with Vince, which is clearly not helping the team when hes going 3-10, then whats the point of playing him at all?


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

on a side, does anyone know what type of offense we're running, because we need to make some changes to it....down 25 pts now....glad i decided not to go to the game....


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

Get Jalen off. Now.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

NeoSamurai said:


> true, but the thing with rose is that he isnt one of our younger players....hes supposed to be a veteran for the squad and if hes starting to get into a "mano-a-mano" type of gameset with Vince, which is clearly not helping the team when hes going 3-10, then whats the point of playing him at all?


I don't see this mano a mano thing your talking about but the raps as a group are doing pretty bad but it looks like everybody wants to point the finger at Rose last I checked there were 4 other guys on the court with him out there


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## Chris Bosh #4 (Feb 18, 2005)

Team team OFFICIALLY has isolated Bosh out of the offense. Pathetic.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

Mr_B said:


> I don't see this mano a mano thing your talking about but the raps as a group are doing pretty bad but it looks like everybody wants to point the finger at Rose last I checked there were 4 other guys on the court with him out there


during the first half, he had a couple of possessions where he tried to force a post move on Vince....

on a side note, Calderon's game is real similar to Parker's game....gotta love his attacking style...


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

on a positive note calderon looking pretty good out there


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## trees (Jun 11, 2003)

Yep, Calderon looking like a really good pickup..Should be starting before the season is over.


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## spinz (Aug 19, 2005)

Mr_B said:


> I don't see this mano a mano thing your talking about but the raps as a group are doing pretty bad but it looks like everybody wants to point the finger at Rose last I checked there were 4 other guys on the court with him out there



it did seem like jalen was going one on one with vince and the with the whole NJ team...it was frustrating to see him jack up shots, but it looks like he was trying to undo his wrongs from the wizards game and show up vince at the same time...

it's 3rd quarter and jalen is on the bench now...hope this second unit can lift us up...


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

JC giving our offense some spark.


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

Back-to-back three balls from Mo and Charlie cuts the lead back to 15.

Promising, if anything, considering our game thus far.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

we should run more screen and roll stuff with Calderon on the floor...the guy can penetrate and find our perimeter guys open or he can drive to the hoop for a nice lay-in/draw a foul and get to the line (which we dont do often enough)...plus our bigs (namely Bosh and CV) are both good perimeter shooters....

down 15 now, with 11 mins to go....lets make a run right here boys....


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

calderon has offically caught my attention I like this kid work ethic


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

JC's willingness to get to the basket is really great to see. Having a big second half.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

this unit of Calderon, James, Villaneuva, Peterson and Bosh really are playing well tonight....whether we win or lose, this unit has shown that they can play together and are the reason why we're actually making this game an exciting one...


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## [email protected] (Sep 27, 2005)

wow. calderon is making leo eat his words about him not being a starting pg yet. goodness.


WHERES ROSE? AHAHHAHA


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

looks like the raps ran out of gas


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

that and RJ and VC started to make some big plays...


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> wow. calderon is making leo eat his words about him not being a starting pg yet. goodness.
> 
> 
> WHERES ROSE? AHAHHAHA


calderon not ready to start yet lets not get ahead of ourselves


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

Mr_B said:


> calderon not ready to start yet lets not get ahead of ourselves


hey, hes leading the team, hes getting everyone involved on offense, hes breaking down the other team's defense, not turning the ball over....the guy could start next game...

however i do agree that he should sit for a bit longer and let James start for the time being, but if Calderon continues playing like this til December, then i see no reason why he shouldnt be starting or at least be given 30 mins a night...


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

I've been very, very impressed by Jose. He's really changing the tempo and making very smart decisions (don't remember a noticable bad decision all night).

I also like Charlie, he's really aggresive and seems to really like to get inside, and get easier baskets, though he does take some jumpers.

As for the Raptors tonight, their offense has been horrid, and Rose still hasn't changed from last season. He still thinks this is his team, and had a very immature showing by forcing shots repeatedly, he shouldn't be doing that, especially as the veteran presence on the team. He turned it into something personal with Vince (even threw in a forearm). Bosh should be getting more shots, the offense was running fairly smoothing early in the game when they ran their offense through Bosh (until he got overly anxious because he wasn't getting a decent amount of shots).


Also, on a side-note, it's not really my business, but _Bud Boy_, I've seen you are here for a while as a big Toronto fan, when/why did you move New Brunswick?


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

NeoSamurai said:


> hey, hes leading the team, hes getting everyone involved on offense, hes breaking down the other team's defense, not turning the ball over....the guy could start next game...
> 
> however i do agree that *he should sit for a bit longer and let James start for the time being*, but if Calderon continues playing like this til December, then i see no reason why he shouldnt be starting or at least be given 30 mins a night...


exactly theres no real rush here I think its best if you ease him into the position nothing wrong with comming of the bench for the time being its not about who starts but who finishes


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## JS03 (Jan 5, 2005)

well, Gameover.
"Jose Calderon" Played a great game.


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## JL2002 (Nov 30, 2003)

Raptors will never be a team as long as Rose and Mike James is still in it.....


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## foul_balls (Jun 25, 2004)

Man, real poor effort for 3 quarters.

Glad Jalen sat for the 3rd and 4th since he did nothing in the first two quarters. I remember people complaining Rafer tries to show up his counterpart, playing one on one and trying to show the other up. Jalen was even worse tonight trying to play one-on-one isolations with VC in the 2nd.

Jose looked great - Offense looked much smoother in the second half with him running it than it did with Mike James running it in the first half. I still think James is better suited to playing off the ball but it's only game 2 so I know it means nothing.

God, I hope there are very few of these type games......


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

A better second half performance, but two dominating offensive displays in both quarters by Kidd then Jefferson spelled it out in the end.

Our first half (second quarter moreso) was forgettable, if anything. Our transition game wasn't working, not helped by the work, or lack thereof, on the boards. The Nets left the door open for us, with their turnover-filled first half, but we really struggled to get anything going, and RJ made sure we paid where it counted - on the scoreboard. 

Our second unit, led by Calderon and Mo really led the way back home - very very solid performance by Jose today. Really took control with the tempo, and took it to the basket when he could, his reward - 5 trips to the charity stripe. Impressive showing in an otherwise dimly lit team performance.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

JL2002 said:


> Raptors will never be a team as long as Rose and Mike James is still in it.....


theres other players who wear the raptor uniform you know


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## spinz (Aug 19, 2005)

box score


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## frank_white (Apr 20, 2005)

Damn, Rose was terrible tonight. And I wasn't overly impressed with Graham tonight either.

But Mo Pete and Jose looked outstanding. My man Jose has got real pep to his game -- gotta love that. He's going to be fun to watch this season.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Sometimes it seems like the Raptors don't know how to win. One of those nights.

I'm not really interested in getting into much detail tonight. I watched the game with friends and didn't pay much attention after the way the first half went.

The way they're playing right now really reminds me of the team in the short weeks leading up to the big trade. Especially with Jalen sitting on the bench at the end of this one.

We're a group of individuals right now.


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

cant blame Joey he is still a rook and its only his 2nd game, but it looked like he was forcing his offense to much

Wow Jalen and James played like ***, and why the hell did we not give the ball to bosh? this is really stupid. We should be starting Calderon he is a much better PG then James will ever be


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

I like what Mitchell did by benching Hoffa and Rose, 

Rose was trying to be a hero and if he continues i think vigilante is right and he needs to be moved. As for Hoffa the only time he shouldn't even be thinking about taking a 3


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

madman said:


> I like what Mitchell did by benching Hoffa and Rose,
> 
> Rose was trying to be a hero and if he continues *i think vigilante is right* and he needs to be moved. As for Hoffa the only time he shouldn't even be thinking about taking a 3


Me too, he's 100% right. Rose disappointed me big time tonight.


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## VTRapsfan (Dec 5, 2004)

I couldn't watch the game, so could someone tell me who was guarding Jefferson? He shouldn't be getting 35/11 against us with our good perimeter defenders.

By the boxscore it seems like the bench kept us from getting blown out. Great games from Mo and JC with a solid performance from Charlie V. Bosh should be getting more than 10 shots, especially against one of the NBA's weaker frontlines.

PS: I'm going to RealGM Trade Checker to look at some possible Rose trades. Before the season started I was all for keeping him as a vet presence, but he still thinks he's the star.


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

RaptorsCB4 said:


> I couldn't watch the game, so could someone tell me who was guarding Jefferson? He shouldn't be getting 35/11 against us with our good perimeter defenders.
> 
> By the boxscore it seems like the bench kept us from getting blown out. Great games from Mo and JC with a solid performance from Charlie V. Bosh should be getting more than 10 shots, especially against one of the NBA's weaker frontlines.
> 
> PS: I'm going to RealGM Trade Checker to look at some possible Rose trades. Before the season started I was all for keeping him as a vet presence, but he still thinks he's the star.


 it was a lot of different people because we didnt defend pick and rolls very well so it was mix of Graham Rose Calderon, i think bonner might have been against him a couple of times


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

meh meh and more meh. M-E-H, meh. This may not seem like the ideal environment for our youngsters to develop but Jalen sitting the secon half while Jose plays 35+ minutes is a great example of how this team's youth will learn to play together. Bring on the losses at this point but sooner or later the lads will learn to play together.


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## undefined_playa (Oct 23, 2005)

If Rose keeps that up, Mitchell will have no choice but to put him as a reserve, which he really should be. Graham looked very shaky...his handles didn't seem to be very good. 
- Play of the game...Hoffa for 3 with a man in his face :laugh:


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

Joey's handles have never been a strongpoint.

I don't mind Jalen waging a personal battle with Vince, as long as it's helping the team. If he wants to go out and play with a chip on his shoulder, play some, dare I say it, inspired defense, and really use the matchup on Vince as motivation, then I'm all for it. But when he starts putting this all before the team, then he can have his sorry *** firmly implanted on the bench for all I care.

What happened today wasn't any of that. It was pure selfishness.

So much has been made of him keeping his mouth shut in regards to his situation in TDot. Yes, well done Jalen. A public pouter you may not be, but after today's game, you're hardly a leader either.


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## Unknownone (May 14, 2005)

Rhubarb said:


> I don't mind Jalen waging a personal battle with Vince, as long as it's helping the team. If he wants to go out and play with a chip on his shoulder, play some, dare I say it, inspired defense, and really use the matchup on Vince as motivation, then I'm all for it. But when he starts putting this all before the team, then he can have his sorry *** firmly implanted on the bench for all I care.
> 
> What happened today wasn't any of that. It was pure selfishness.
> 
> So much has been made of him keeping his mouth shut in regards to his situation in TDot. Yes, well done Jalen. A public pouter you may not be, but after today's game, you're hardly a leader either.


It would be interesting to cite an instance or situation in which Rose actually demonstrated leadership qualities - he's still playing w/ the chip on his shoulder of being abandoned by his biological father Jimmy Walker, who is reluctant to have anything to do w/ Jalen even now (resides in Kansas City)... Rose and Webber's contribution to the game ultimately may be ushering in long shorts as part of Michigan's Fab 5 - no championships, no winner tags, just changing the length of shorts... Kinda anticlimactic given all the acclaim those 2, Juwan Howard, Jimmy King, and Ray Jackson...


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

madman said:


> Wow Jalen and James played like ***, and why the hell did we not give the ball to bosh? this is really stupid


cuz he was playing like trash until late in the 2nd half and all this point the finger at rose is stupid how can you single out 1 man mistakes but give a pass to everyone else how come no one bashing woods for not scoring a single point how come no one bashing bosh for not geting a single offense rebound how come nobody on bonner case for being invisible all game as a whole this whole team sucked tonight but like I said before I guess its all rose fault right? when in doubt blame jalen


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

woah am happy i dint stay up till the early hours for this one... i just get the feeling this year is gonna be a very long with rose on our team...


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

Bosh needs to be more agressive out there. Krstic took 4 more shots than him, yet the Raptors still managed 5 more shots in total than the Nets. At times it seems that Bosh isn't getting the ball enough, but at the same time it's his fault if he's not getting in position or not doing anything when he gets it. I remember there was this one time when he was trying to take Collins on, but he didn't know what to do. He waited then he tried to drive and threw up and air ball. He could have easily taken Collins on if he didn't hesitate so much.


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

Mr_B said:


> cuz he was playing like trash until late in the 2nd half and all this point the finger at rose is stupid how can you single out 1 man mistakes but give a pass to everyone else how come no one bashing woods for not scoring a single point how come no one bashing bosh for not geting a single offense rebound how come nobody on bonner case for being invisible all game as a whole this whole team sucked tonight but like I said before I guess its all rose fault right? when in doubt blame jalen


 i dont blame woods because woods is doing what he is supposed to, we dont have him out there to get 10 points a game, we have him because he is and sometimes really good rebounder. Rose is supposed to be the scorer and the veteran but he was playing like it was Jalen Rose ft the Raptors vs The Nets


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Bosh is really struggling with that starting unit. Looks to me like he took the pre-season way too casually and did not get himself ready for real games. Just assumed he would pick up where he left off last year.

Mike James had a horrible game, forcing shots all night, but nobody was moving for him on offense. They all just stood around. Where is the cutting and screening and curling? No energy from the starters in front of a packed house?

Nobody going to the O glass in the first half. You would think seeing your team go 0/11 from the perimeter in Q2 that some guys might think about rebounding?

Despite all this the game was actually closer than it looked. If NJ isn't red hot from 3 the game stays in the 11 point range and we don't get down by 17+. VC is chucking bricks all night but hits the buzzer beater in Q2. JKidd hits his threes plus a couple more with his foot just on the line.

Sam keeps talking about letting guys play through mistakes and that rooks can't improve without PT. But he plays Hoff only 5mpg in first 2 games? Bonner is just as bad but gets double the minutes even though we have plenty of depth at his spot and none at Hoffs? Loren Woods was giving us some D and rebounding but gets pulled for having no offensive game? Loren even gave a hard foul to stop a layup 2 games in a row. More than he did all last year.

Charlie and Bosh play a combined 70 minutes and only put up 23/13. Thats just not enough. MoP had 20/8 in 30 minutes.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

It is time to stop the BS and blame the teammates for Bosh.

Bosh is showing ABSOLUTELY no ability to able to create a good look - and a go to player must do that. He is less athletic right now, and he is playing like ****. Blame Bosh for not getting shots, because he is unable to create a look right now.


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

should have worked on his right hand all summer


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

lucky777s said:


> Despite all this the game was actually closer than it looked. If NJ isn't red hot from 3 the game stays in the 11 point range and we don't get down by 17+. VC is chucking bricks all night but hits the buzzer beater in Q2. JKidd hits his threes plus a couple more with his foot just on the line.
> 
> Sam keeps talking about letting guys play through mistakes and that rooks can't improve without PT. But he plays Hoff only 5mpg in first 2 games? Bonner is just as bad but gets double the minutes even though we have plenty of depth at his spot and none at Hoffs? Loren Woods was giving us some D and rebounding but gets pulled for having no offensive game? Loren even gave a hard foul to stop a layup 2 games in a row. More than he did all last year.


No way, if NJ doesn't turn the ball over 20 times, at least 8 of them unforced then the game is a bigger blowout. The Raps' wasted chance after chance. NJ scored 18 points off of 15 turn overs versus the Raps' 13 points scored off of 20 T.O's

I feel bad for Hoffa but Mitch had no choice but to pull him. Some stuff Hoffa can't really help. like when he came into the game and within, literally 2 seconds gets a foul. he had to foul, it was an easy bucket and Sam would've pulled him if Krstic (?) had of gotten a free pass, so even though every person in the ACC sighed, that one wasn't really his fault.
But after the three point shoot, where he, as well as Sam, and all of us had time to contemplate how he shouldn't take that shoot and how even taking a timeout is better then him shooting, he still did, forcing Sam's hand.

I'll give it a while, but I am not impressed with Sam's coaching this year at all.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Bosh is struggling big time, and it does look like he took preseason lightly. But, at least he is busting his *** out there and being a team player. I couldn't say the same for Rose who, game after game, thinks he can play a one on one type game and lead us to the win. 

Graham also dissapointed me tonight. Decent defense, but he really, really dissapointed me on the offensive end. He was just floating around the perimeter, he almost seems scared to test his handles and slash inside. Even though thats not his game, it would help him immensly to develop a slashing game. I'd also like to see him set up in the post more often.

Overall a terrible game, but our team seems to think chucking is the answer. So we got into this whole by taking awful shots and not getting into the flow of the offense. What better way is there to get back in the game than do the exact same thing? Sam has dissapointed me big time this year as well.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

madman said:


> i dont blame woods because woods is doing what he is supposed to, we dont have him out there to get 10 points a game, we have him because he is and sometimes really good rebounder.


not to pick on you or anything but what exactly is woods role out there? check the statline

0 pts,4 reb

I'am not asking woods to be scorer or a star but your a starter for a reason at least be somewhat productive out there those numbers are not productive he wasting space when it comes to the starting line up the only chage I'd consider right now is moving bosh to C and starting CV at PF cuz there getting no production at the C position matter of fact this ain't new this tracks back to last season


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Whoa, whoa, whoa,

Let's be fair to Loren. He played a grand total of 11 minutes. In that time he got 4 boards and blocked 2 shots. Plus a nice hard foul. 11 minutes.

You wouldn't have been happy with 8 boards and 4 blocks in say 25 minutes from a C?

Realistic expectations would be nice.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

vigilante said:


> Bosh is struggling big time, and it does look like he took preseason lightly. But, at least he is busting his *** out there and being a team player. I couldn't say the same for Rose who, game after game, thinks he can play a one on one type game and lead us to the win.
> 
> .


*sighs*

1.) No need to start with this bosh is strugging stuff were only 2 games into the season and he did manage to finish with 14pts 7reb 5ast not bad for someone whos "Struggling" and nobody can question bosh offseason or preseason were not there with him the entire summer we only know as much as the media tells us let just say that Bosh is off to a slow start for now 

2.) All this rose hate stupid the is refection of how ppl in here acted last season towards Vince blaming him for everything if the raps were doing good as a unit and rose was the lone black spot holding them back then yea you could single him out but that not the case here the entire team as a group came out flat the way ppl on here are blaming rose for everything is crazy does rose deserve some blame? sure he does but rose is PART of the problem not THE PROBLEM the raps as a group have to step it up


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

lucky777s said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa,
> 
> Let's be fair to Loren. He played a grand total of 11 minutes. In that time he got 4 boards and blocked 2 shots. Plus a nice hard foul. 11 minutes.
> 
> ...


woods was invisible all game I'am surprised he got 4 boards last night


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## MonsterBosh (Feb 9, 2005)

Raptors are a team in disarray because they have not jelled into a functional playmaking team. Players are still learning about each other's moves .. and with 3 rookies on the floor at the same time what can you expect except individual play.

In fact this team may never jell because their basketball IQ is obviously lower than their last two opponents .. regardless of the score. What we have is a team of individual performers that will always entertain us but will not win much. I mean somebody like MoPete has no clue about team play and never has ... so obvious.

As for Bosh, he cannot "lead" the team playing as a PF, because he is dependent on the guards to set up plays and feed him in the low post. Calderon seem to be the only guard who has any concept of team play and even has "flashes of Nashes" when he drives and feeds the ball to unprepared hands ... no wonder Jose is continually shouting something Spanglish to the players when he is bringing the ball up the floor.

So let's just face the truth .... the Raptors team has maybe only 2 players who would rate as first string starter in the entire NBA .... and you can guess who they are ... !!!


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Ouch, harsh but true!

Whaddya going to do? Fire everybody and miss the playoffs, maybe mess up a couple of lottery picks in a continued effort to drive away fans?...oh wait, that probably will happen...damn, is this how clippers fans feel?

After what I saw last night, I'm ready to get on Sam's case. Who lets their team play that bad for that long and not call a timeout? Yes Sam you have a young team, that means if things get outta control you've got to pull them aside right away, steer the ship Sam. This is the most selfish team I've seen in a while. Even the coach has too much pride, sticking with guys longer then he should, or punishing players, Sam just win the game man, put the guys on the floor that will run a play, any play. Last night I think I saw maybe 5 or 6 pick and rolls the entire games, pretty strange considering Sam says they've gone back to basics.

Honestly my jaw was dropped open last night when I saw how long Saw let bad runs go on.
Never mind the players that can't figure out running the same first option jump shot, doesn't work.

The good news is tonight it's the Pistons, so at least we get to watch a real team play the game the way it's meant.

Having said that, GO RAPTORS!


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

MonsterBosh said:


> So let's just face the truth .... the Raptors team has maybe only 2 players who would rate as first string starter in the entire NBA .... and you can guess who they are ... !!!



OK, I am going to guess............Loren Woods and .........Matt Bonner. No, Eric Williams. No, Bonner. Loren and Bonner. That's my final answer.




> woods was invisible all game


Pretty easy to be invisible when you are on the bench for 37 minutes of the game.

Again, if you want better than 4 boards and 2 blocks in 11 minutes I suggest you go buy the Raps a 10 million dollar C that wants to play in Toronto. Woods makes the minimum for a reason. Adjust your expectations accordingly.


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## purplehaze89 (Apr 20, 2005)

JuniorNoboa said:


> I was going to use every gamblers rule of thumb and just double up on the bet on this game to cover my losses from last time and still come out ahead. But then I saw the incredible odds on this game and instead decided to decuple up on my bet from last game. The spread is 4! Are you kidding me?! They'll cover that every quarter. Even real sportlines are giving a ~4 point spread...I might have to break into the savings account for this game.


Never have there been truer words spoken.


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## MonsterBosh (Feb 9, 2005)

shookem said:


> Ouch, harsh but true!
> 
> Whaddya going to do?


The vile bitter truth about the Raptor players is that most of them are not swift thinkers when it comes to running set plays or distributing the ball .. except Calderon ... which brings up the topic of on-court IQ ..... what we see on winning disciplined teams like the Pistons.

Mitchell has basketball brains and as the coach he can see what is happening. Many have criticized his bench strategy, but what would you do if you had this same team??? He can't keep Calderon on the floor for 40+ minutes and neither can he keep Bosh playing center forever ... because that would really demoralize him after 3 years of struggling. 

Bosh has demonstrated his basketball IQ right from the start when he was asked to play center as a skinny rookie and it is a miracle he has survived the beating. Now the pressure is on Villanueva and Graham to show their brains and skills having stayed on longer in college ball. The rest of the team is filled with scrubs and guys with heavy pockets. James does not seem to have the brains to run the offense and may only be showboating for his next contract.

Mitchell does not have the bodies or the brains to challenge most teams in the NBA, and that too must be demoralizing for him. I suspect that he is leaving the guys on the floor without coaching help because he has most likely verbally and in practice explained to them what he expect they must do as pro basketball players. When these guys lose their ability to think on the floor and degenerate into a Galen Rose mentality, then the coach must decide what to do .... call a time out and again explain to them the basics of basketball ... or leave them out on the floor and let them make fools of themselves as the opposition eviscerates them with ease at both ends of the floor.

Remember that most of these NBA players are not great minds when it comes to basketball strategy during the heat of a game and they fall back on their tremendous athleticism to get them through. One exception is the Detroit Pistons who are a blue-collar team who depend on teamwork, brains and then athleticsm .... and for true basketball aficionados it is a pretty picture to watch ... even against the Spurs who are another whole different thing. 

Calderon is obviously a "thinking" player ... possibly with less athleticism than most .. but compensates with brain power ... like Nash .... "flashes of Nashes" .. right .. ?!

When somebody like third year player Bosh must yell at teammates to smarten up ... then we know the Raptors are in deep trouble IQ-wise .... because Bosh is a smart kid given the way he has survived and flourished on this disfunctional team called the Ratpors .... but things change eventually ... !!


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

lucky777s said:


> Pretty easy to be invisible when you are on the bench for 37 minutes of the game.
> 
> Again, if you want better than 4 boards and 2 blocks in 11 minutes I suggest you go buy the Raps a 10 million dollar C that wants to play in Toronto. Woods makes the minimum for a reason. Adjust your expectations accordingly.


I would but nobody wants to come to canada


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

Mr_B said:


> I would but nobody wants to come to canada


Yes, and it's evident because we've always had an enormous amount of cap room to lure them in.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

Turkish Delight said:


> Yes, and it's evident because we've always had an enormous amount of cap room to lure them in.


even when we did nobody came everybody runs away from Toronto like it HIV


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

Mr_B said:


> *sighs*
> 
> 1.) No need to start with this bosh is strugging stuff were only 2 games into the season and he did manage to finish with 14pts 7reb 5ast not bad for someone whos "Struggling" and nobody can question bosh offseason or preseason were not there with him the entire summer we only know as much as the media tells us let just say that Bosh is off to a slow start for now


Bosh may be the golden boy of the franchise, but that doesn't make him immune to criticism. He's had two below par games - that's a fact. You can call it what you like, put whatever spin you want on it, call it a slow start or whatever, but the fact remains - he's clearly struggling to play the basketball we've all come to expect, and certainly he's expected, to play.

Don't justify a guys game by his stats. They do go someway to telling us how they played, but they are by no means the gospel. His shot isn't falling, and yes, that's partly not his fault. But he has to continue to demand the ball and work hard to get in positions that are going to help him. At the moment, he's not doing that.

Is this sort of form to be expected? In some cases, yeah, probably. But at the same time, that doesn't mean we can't expect him to do certain things better.

It's good he's getting involved in other ways, but please, spare us from the justifiable rubbish. Yes, he's off to a slow start, and that's because he's struggling.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Mr_B said:


> even when we did nobody came everybody runs away from Toronto like it HIV



when was this, pray tell? we may have had cap room the year we signed VC and nobody ran away from our money then.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Mr_B said:


> *sighs*
> 
> 1.) No need to start with this bosh is strugging stuff were only 2 games into the season and he did manage to finish with 14pts 7reb 5ast not bad for someone whos "Struggling" and nobody can question bosh offseason or preseason were not there with him the entire summer we only know as much as the media tells us let just say that Bosh is off to a slow start for now


Rhubarb already did a great job responding to this, but I'll get a word in as well. 

Who said anything about offseason? I watched the preseason, and he looked absolutely awful. He had a couple good games, but other than that it looked as though he was coasting a bit.

He's struggled this year. It doesn't matter if its a slow start, hes struggling. It's obvious he has to pick it up in order for this team to have any kind of success.



> 2.) All this rose hate stupid the is refection of how ppl in here acted last season towards Vince blaming him for everything if the raps were doing good as a unit and rose was the lone black spot holding them back then yea you could single him out but that not the case here the entire team as a group came out flat the way ppl on here are blaming rose for everything is crazy does rose deserve some blame? sure he does but rose is PART of the problem not THE PROBLEM the raps as a group have to step it up


I don't know where I said Rose was THE problem, I'd love for you to show me. He is a big part of the problem though. 

He is supposed to be the veteran leader of this team, and he has the ball in his hands the majority of the time hes out there. He has always been an awful defensive player, we all know that. But, like when he was in Chicago, hes trying to take the game into his own hands and ignores his teammates a lot of the time.

In no way am I just blaming Rose, because he is DEFINETLY not the only guy struggling. But, it's almost as Jalen goes - this team goes. As our leader, a lot of the chucking and bad defensive qualities are bound to rub off on his teammates. Thats evident.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Mr. B, have you ever talked to an American? Because honestly, if you had any clue of the perception people have of the city from outside of Toronto, you would not be saying what you are. Whether you'd like to think it or not, Toronto has a pretty good rep, and it is a major tourist destination in the northeast, so a lot of Americans come up regularly. For those who've never been, of course one of the first things that comes to mind is, "it must be cold there". Not "man it must suck up there".

That's for the average American. The NBA player American actually gets to visit the city, at the very least once a year. Gets to actually witness the city, drink legally if they're under 21, gets a chance to test that perception of what they might think of the city. So yeah, it's different.

I've never been to Houston. If you asked me right now, would I want to move to Houston, I'd say no. But if I had a chance to see Houston, and it turns out I liked it, and you told me you would pay me to move to Houston, chances are, I'd say yes.


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

Mr_B said:


> even when we did nobody came everybody runs away from Toronto like it HIV


umm just a question...when have we had cap room??? i dont remember the last tiem we had cap room...personally i dont see any difference frrom Toronto and any other city in the Northeast Boston/New York/Cleveland/Chicago name it...toronto is right up there with all of them..and toronto is preety popping...it holds its own against all american cities...its all about CREAM my friend...u show them the cash and they will come...we have just never been able to show them that cash...so they never came...

and in response to Bud Boy...i dunno if they ever have tiem to get to know the city...they are preety much in and out...especially teams from the south...they rarely stay in the city to realize its true potential...ussually they are here less then 36 hours...ussually 24 hours and they are gone....


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Half an hour is more than enough time to witness the city, drink legally, and test one's perception of a city.


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