# Len Bias or Michael Jordan?



## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Len Bias in college, was about as COLD as they come. Many projected him to be as good as Mike, with just as much athleticism, but with an even better jumper. Those young kats around here may not know about him, but to the people here who saw him play...how do you think he would've stacked up? That Celts/Bulls rivalry would have been intense with Jordan v.s. Bias. It's an unfortunate occurance that he died, but how would you have saw him panning out if he ever got to compete in the NBA?


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

In my opinion Bias was a good player. I also believe much of his legend has been overrated since his death. Yes, he had all of the attributes that we associate with greatness, but who is to say he would have improved any more from where he already was? What was his ceiling? How would he have developed? What kind of work ethic did he have? How would he have responed to the money? 

The problem with the argument of Jordan vs. Bias is in one argument you are arguing fact and in the other you are arguing fiction. Not to mention the argument is flawed as well due to the fact that you would be using the standard set by Jordan to argue Bias being greater. Having seen what Jordan accomplished it is too easy to assume Bias would have accomplished more. In my opinion there is too many variables that go unanswered before we could even consider a Michael vs. Bias discussion.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Actually MJ is vastly overrated as a college player by people who assume that he was MJ back then.He played for some really outstanding teams,but he wasn't even the best player on two of the three teams he played for.He was extremely good,but nothing resembling the dominant player that he became.As a college player he probably just barely gets into the top ten in ACC history.Bias was absolutely amazing.He was doing all the things that Jordan did in the NBA at UMd(including the part where neither of them showed up for classes).In ACC history I would rate him just behind David Thompson,Phil Ford and maybe Johnny Dawkins.After that it's silly to compare the greatest of all time to a guy who killed himself freebasing cocaine before he ever stepped onto an NBA court.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

if people thought he was going to be the best ever, don't you think he would have been drafted ahead of brad daugherty?

he was an awesome player, but lets not assume he was on THAT level. he was a different type of player. 

jordan even had the better college career.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Diable said:


> Actually MJ is vastly overrated as a college player by people who assume that he was MJ back then.He played for some really outstanding teams,but he wasn't even the best player on two of the three teams he played for.He was extremely good,but nothing resembling the dominant player that he became.As a college player he probably just barely gets into the top ten in ACC history.Bias was absolutely amazing.He was doing all the things that Jordan did in the NBA at UMd(including the part where neither of them showed up for classes).In ACC history I would rate him just behind David Thompson,Phil Ford and maybe Johnny Dawkins.After that it's silly to compare the greatest of all time to a guy who killed himself freebasing cocaine before he ever stepped onto an NBA court.


he (jordan) was a consensus college player of the year and 2 time 1st team all-american (2 time sporting news poty) , bias a 1 time 1st team all-american (who didn't win poty).


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Bias is dead. Who knows how he would have done as a pro. Heck David Thompson was supposed to be better than Julius Erving, but he was a drug addict till he cleaned himself up.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

kflo said:


> he (jordan) was a consensus college player of the year and 2 time 1st team all-american (2 time sporting news poty) , bias a 1 time 1st team all-american (who didn't win poty).


I saw all the guys I mentioned.What I said is the consenus among people who have actually watched ACC basketball over the period.There have been a very good number of ACC players who were demonstrably better than Jordan in college.As college players Phil Ford and David Thompson both made Jordan look mediocre and that is just the to beginning of the list.Jordan was a very good college player and nothing more.

Hakeem Olajuwon went first in the draft and then Sam Bowie was drafted.Do you think the immortal MJ would have been passed over for a guy like Sam Bowie?No...He wasn't anything of the sort coming out of college and absolutely noone knew what he would become at that point.Below the neck Len Bias was every bit as good a player as Jordan and he played like a superstar in college.Noone has any clue whether or not Bias could have approached him because he poisoned himself with cocaine,but anyone who watched both would know who was the better college player.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

The sad thing about Bias is that he wasn't that type of person. He was a good kid who made one bad mistake and paid the ultimate price for it. It was without a doubt one of the most shocking moments in the history of sports. He is one of the few players, though, that can reasonably compared to a Michael Jordan. It's very possible if he hadn't died that nowadays we would be asking, "Is so-and-so the next Len Bias?" It's a big shame that we never got to see what he could have become.

"From Tragedy to Triumph" (YouTube)

Short Tribute (YouTube)

Another Short Tribute (YouTube)


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Diable said:


> I saw all the guys I mentioned.What I said is the consenus among people who have actually watched ACC basketball over the period.There have been a very good number of ACC players who were demonstrably better than Jordan in college.As college players Phil Ford and David Thompson both made Jordan look mediocre and that is just the to beginning of the list.Jordan was a very good college player and nothing more.
> 
> Hakeem Olajuwon went first in the draft and then Sam Bowie was drafted.Do you think the immortal MJ would have been passed over for a guy like Sam Bowie?No...He wasn't anything of the sort coming out of college and absolutely noone knew what he would become at that point.Below the neck Len Bias was every bit as good a player as Jordan and he played like a superstar in college.Noone has any clue whether or not Bias could have approached him because he poisoned himself with cocaine,but anyone who watched both would know who was the better college player.


i saw the guys you mentioned as well, and jordan was the better college player. he was the leading player on the #1 team in the country, and he was national player of the year. bias wasn't. bias wasn't consensus 2nd team as a soph, and was only consensus 1st team as a junior. jordan was sporting news poty 2 times, and consensus 2x 1st team all-american.

The ACC's 50th Anniversary Top 10 Male Athletes are listed below: 


ACC Top 10 Male Athletes

1. Michael Jordan............ North Carolina
2. David Thompson......... NC State
3. Charlie Ward................ Florida State
4. Arnold Palmer.............. Wake Forest
5. Randy White................. Maryland
6. Ralph Sampson........... Virginia
7. Lawrence Taylor........... North Carolina
8. Tim Duncan................... Wake Forest
9. Phil Ford......................... North Carolina
10. Renaldo Nehemiah... Maryland 

that was voted by the acc.

you're just wrong about a list of guys who made him look mediocre.

there was another list, top 100 ncaa players ever and jordan was 13, bias 39, ford 25 and thompson 7. 

link 

the point on bias getting drafted behind daugherty was that the expectations weren't that he was potentially going to be the best ever. we know what jordan became, so it's irrelevant what he was projected to be (and obviously he was expected to be very good). with bias, all we have is his projection. we're talking about whether he could have been greater than jordan was, not whether he was expected to be better than jordan was expected to be at the time. 

and spare me the "anyone who watched..." stuff. 

bias was a different player. he wasn't a guard. he was a forward. he didn't have jordan's quickness or ballhandling. he was like dominique wilkins combined with terry cummings.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

i loved bias as a college player. one of my favorites ever.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

The MAMBA said:


> Len Bias in college, was about as COLD as they come. Many projected him to be as good as Mike, with just as much athleticism, but with an even better jumper. Those young kats around here may not know about him, but to the people here who saw him play...how do you think he would've stacked up? That Celts/Bulls rivalry would have been intense with Jordan v.s. Bias. It's an unfortunate occurance that he died, but how would you have saw him panning out if he ever got to compete in the NBA?


there was a thread about this on another board. we generally decided that since he killed himself because he couldnt take the pressure of being drafted, hows he ever going to be a star? or a factor in late game situations.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

pmac34 said:


> there was a thread about this on another board. we generally decided that since he killed himself because he couldnt take the pressure of being drafted, hows he ever going to be a star? or a factor in late game situations.


why post if you know so little about the guy?


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

pmac34 said:


> there was a thread about this on another board. we generally decided that since he killed himself because he couldnt take the pressure of being drafted, hows he ever going to be a star? or a factor in late game situations.


You shouldn't be allowed to post here. What a stupid post.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

I never saw him play, but from watching the "From Tragedy to Triumph" clip, I can tell that he really was a special talent. It's a shame that we never got to see what he would do in the NBA.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

kflo said:


> i saw the guys you mentioned as well, and jordan was the better college player. he was the leading player on the #1 team in the country, and he was national player of the year. bias wasn't. bias wasn't consensus 2nd team as a soph, and was only consensus 1st team as a junior. jordan was sporting news poty 2 times, and consensus 2x 1st team all-american.
> 
> The ACC's 50th Anniversary Top 10 Male Athletes are listed below:
> 
> ...


Something i can't quite remember, kflo... I distinctly recall people refering as Len Bias as a guy who supposedly was as good as Michael Jordan. But, considering Bias died at 1986, to what Michael Jordan they were refering to? the college Player? The 1986 Michael Jordan? The Michael Jordan-to-be?

am i making any sense?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

the mj comparisons have evolved more over the years. they were both acc players, same era, played against some of the same players and coaches. he was freakishly athletic (and much stronger than mj). mj had already established himself as an nba superstar ('86 playoffs), so he was establishing himself as a standard (and reconfirming that it's not always wise to draft the big man over the smaller guy). comparisons were in part just from those things - the prior standard, the new guy coming from same conference, the athleticism, the circumstances (big man / smaller man draft choice). i don't think their games were so similar though.

it was pretty sick to think about - celts had just finished one of the dominant seasons in nba history, and drafted a freakish nba ready pretty sure thing. the celts one knock was their athleticism, and bias himself narrows that gap with the lakers. he could play on the frontline with either mchale or bird or both.


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

len bias = lebron james without the court vision. i never saw people comment on bias' playmaking ability. just his raw athlethicism and scoring. 

i hate hearing this story over and over though. it is incredibly tragic. if he wasnt a well mannered boy, i wouldnt have cared but since he was very down to earth, it makes the story much more tragic than it really is.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

The MAMBA said:


> Len Bias in college, was about as COLD as they come. Many projected him to be as good as Mike, with just as much athleticism, but with an even better jumper. Those young kats around here may not know about him, but to the people here who saw him play...how do you think he would've stacked up? That Celts/Bulls rivalry would have been intense with Jordan v.s. Bias. It's an unfortunate occurance that he died, but how would you have saw him panning out if he ever got to compete in the NBA?


How many 'next Jordans' have there been? Now we've got to go and get guys who would've come into the league before anyone would have been even been talking about a 'next Jordan' (if they hadn't died, of course) and compare _them_ to Jordan? This board is a joke.

Have a day.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> How many 'next Jordans' have there been? Now we've got to go and get guys who would've come into the league before anyone would have been even been talking about a 'next Jordan' (if they hadn't died, of course) and compare _them_ to Jordan? This board is a joke.
> 
> Have a day.



you do an excellent job of raising the level of discourse.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

DuMa said:


> len bias = lebron james without the court vision. i never saw people comment on bias' playmaking ability. just his raw athlethicism and scoring.


That's just plain wrong. He was a complete player and a different player than LeBron. It wasn't "raw athleticism and scoring." It was everything. Bias had a steady jumper than LeBron couldn't even dream about.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Dark Knight said:


> That's just plain wrong. He was a complete player and a different player than LeBron. It wasn't "raw athleticism and scoring." It was everything. Bias had a steady jumper than LeBron couldn't even dream about.


but it's true that bias wasn't close to the passer lebron is.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

kflo said:


> but it's true that bias wasn't close to the passer lebron is.


Of course that's true, but the two are different players. A lesser informed observer will just see the similarities in size and athleticism and say, "Oh, same player!" and it is so far from the truth.


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## Like A Breath (Jun 16, 2003)

If Brad Daughterty died before the draft would people insist that he would be a top 3 center all time? Who knows if Bias would be better than Jordan, but it's highly unlikely. Better in college doesn't mean better in NBA.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

Like A Breath said:


> If Brad Daughterty died before the draft would people insist that he would be a top 3 center all time? Who knows if Bias would be better than Jordan, but it's highly unlikely. Better in college doesn't mean better in NBA.


depends on youre style of play. eg. JJ Reddick will never as good an NBA player as he was a college player because of his style of play. some college players put up better stats in their rookie season than they did in college (like CP3) because theyre game is for the NBA. Len Bias' game would probably have translated well to the NBA (with the way you guys describe it).
there are some busts as we all know where we think the college player or high school players' game will translate well to the NBA and it doesnt.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

Like A Breath said:


> If Brad Daughterty died before the draft would people insist that he would be a top 3 center all time? Who knows if Bias would be better than Jordan, but it's highly unlikely. Better in college doesn't mean better in NBA.


Why is it highly unlikely?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Dark Knight said:


> Of course that's true, but the two are different players. A lesser informed observer will just see the similarities in size and athleticism and say, "Oh, same player!" and it is so far from the truth.


true


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Dark Knight said:


> Why is it highly unlikely?


why is it highly unlikely that bias would end up being considered the greatest player ever? seems rather obvious.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Like A Breath said:


> If Brad Daughterty died before the draft would people insist that he would be a top 3 center all time? Who knows if Bias would be better than Jordan, but it's highly unlikely. Better in college doesn't mean better in NBA.


brad daugherty, it was recognized even at the time, in no way had the upside that bias had.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

kflo said:


> why is it highly unlikely that bias would end up being considered the greatest player ever? seems rather obvious.


I'm not saying that it is likely, I just don't think it should be brushed off as highly unlikely.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Dark Knight said:


> I'm not saying that it is likely, I just don't think it should be brushed off as highly unlikely.


but it is highly unlikely. it's remotely possible, but highly, highly unlikely.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

pmac34 said:


> there was a thread about this on another board. we generally decided that since he killed himself because he couldnt take the pressure of being drafted, hows he ever going to be a star? or a factor in late game situations.


How could you not handle the pressure of being drafted? I Don't understand.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

I actually like the Bias to 'Nique / Cummings....or more like a Shawn Marion type.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

Prolific Scorer said:


> I actually like the Bias to 'Nique / Cummings....or more like a Shawn Marion type.


I apologize for posting so much in this thread, but _come on_. Have you ever seen Len Bias play? Shawn Marion? Come on.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Len Bias would have been playing for the Celtics so he would have had a chance to get some rings. The answer is unknown though since he was supposed to be more explosive than Jordan and a good shooter. Still, it would have been doubtful that he would have become as good as Jordan if he was doing hard drugs.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Dark Knight said:


> I apologize for posting so much in this thread, but _come on_. Have you ever seen Len Bias play? Shawn Marion? Come on.


Come on? 

Marion without the quickness.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

Prolific Scorer said:


> Come on?
> 
> Marion without the quickness.


:laugh:


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

Alrite, my last post on the subject. A truly great article from Bill Simmons on the effect Bias had on him. If anyone cannot view it, PM me and I'll send you the article.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?id=1216986


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

College, High school.. NBA.

Just because a player dominated one competion, doesnt automatically mean he will dominate the NBA. Where strategistic coaches plan to stop specific types of players and plays.

heck, even Michael Jordan, the way he played in high school, college... doesnt reflect how he played in the NBA... its like an exponential improvement!.. which is an understatement.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

SeaNet said:


> How many 'next Jordans' have there been? Now we've got to go and get guys who would've come into the league before anyone would have been even been talking about a 'next Jordan' (if they hadn't died, of course) and compare _them_ to Jordan? This board is a joke.
> 
> Have a day.


Dude, if you hate it so much...leave. I'm not saying he was better than Mike, just asking for opinions on what they thought of him as a player. Message Boards are here for enterainment. Who says we have to live up to SeaNet's bar of what should and shouldn't be posted? Get the McDonald's arch out of your ***, and treat others with respect and stop being so condescending. The sad thing is, you think you know more about the game then others here, and for the most part...you couldn't be farther from the truth. I literally think everyone on this entire site HATES you. Take that as you may...


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## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> Dude, if you hate it so much...leave. I'm not saying he was better than Mike, just asking for opinions on what they thought of him as a player. Message Boards are here for enterainment. Who says we have to live up to SeaNet's bar of what should and shouldn't be posted? Get the McDonald's arch out of your ***, and treat others with respect and stop being so condescending. The sad thing is, you think you know more about the game then others here, and for the most part...you couldn't be farther from the truth. I literally think everyone on this entire site HATES you. Take that as you may...


wrd


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## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

I can't say much about Len Bias since I haven't watched many of his games, however, I'm sure he had a chance to become atless a decent player. 
For some reason, Isiah Rider comes to mind when I think of him.. weird..


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

I don't know enough about Bias' game to comment, but I've yet to see anyone just coming out of college better than MJ. Only time would have told how good Bias could be.


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## pac4eva5 (Dec 29, 2005)

GOD vs ZEUS


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## ravor44 (Feb 26, 2005)

Len Bias..no doubt... :biggrin: :curse:


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## lw32 (May 24, 2003)

As for the Bias vs. Jordan comparisons I agree that they've blown up because of Bias' death. It's a case of "what could have been," which leaves people fantasizing about the player Bias could have become.

Although great coming out of UNC, Jordan was not "Jordan" if that makes any sense. He was great coming out of college, but he didn't create his legacy until the NBA.

Bias was a great player no doubt, but there have been many great college players that didn't quite adjust to the NBA. He would have been stuck behind Bird and Ainge, and who knows how he would have reacted to limited playing time. Coming out of college Jordan had proven a lot more than Bias, having won a championship and NPOY.

In a Bias vs. Jordan argument, coming out of college Bias was bigger and had a better jump shot, especially the mid-range. Jordan was quicker, a better ball handler and much better at driving to the rack.

Most of the quotes about Bias however were made _after_ his death, which leads me to believe that his shocking death ballooned people's perceptions. Yes, he was a great college player, probably one of the best, but Maryland never made it past the 2nd round with him. Plus, David Thompson had a better ACC career.

The poor Bias family though, losing Len to drugs, and then his younger brother being shot dead at 20. You have to feel bad for the family.

I've heard things about Bias leading a double life, kind of a good guy/bad guy lifestyle where he'd have wild late nights with some, and then wouldn't even have a beer with others (Daughtery). Needless to say, Bias had done coke before. Some believe it was his first time, and that he wasn't a wild guy. I'm pretty sure he was, he was just very good at keeping it quiet.

An interesting fact about that draft class of '86, 7 of the first 14 picks were linked to drug abuse during their careers.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

This post is so damn good.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ralaw again.



ralaw said:


> In my opinion Bias was a good player. I also believe much of his legend has been overrated since his death. Yes, he had all of the attributes that we associate with greatness, but who is to say he would have improved any more from where he already was? What was his ceiling? How would he have developed? What kind of work ethic did he have? How would he have responed to the money?
> 
> The problem with the argument of Jordan vs. Bias is in one argument you are arguing fact and in the other you are arguing fiction. Not to mention the argument is flawed as well due to the fact that you would be using the standard set by Jordan to argue Bias being greater. Having seen what Jordan accomplished it is too easy to assume Bias would have accomplished more. In my opinion there is too many variables that go unanswered before we could even consider a Michael vs. Bias discussion.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Legends grow when death is involved. That's always the case.

Bias most likely wouldn't have become what Jordan did. The chances of any player becoming the best ever are tiny.

That said, Bias did appear to have the talent to potentially challenge Jordan as the game's best player. He was as dynamic as Dominique Wilkins, but with more power, better handles and better passing. Really, there isn't a very good direct comparison for him that has played in the NBA. Maybe a prime Shawn Kemp who could shoot like a guard. Lithe, quick and ferociously powerful.

It was a pretty incredible package.


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## ez8o5 (Aug 22, 2002)

welll in order to be the greatest or a greater bball player than jordan i think he would have to have a great basketball IQ and someone who's dumb enough to try coke wouldnt be able to accomplish that


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

ez8o5 said:


> welll in order to be the greatest or a greater bball player than jordan i think he would have to have a great basketball IQ and someone who's dumb enough to try coke wouldnt be able to accomplish that


What a brilliant analysis. Too bad it doesn't even work for Michael Jordan, himself. Nice try, though. Next time try using some sense.


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## dwade3 (Sep 12, 2005)

by the sounds of it Len Bias was Lebron before there was a Lebron....??? powerful, a great passer, scoring/dunking ability......


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## dwade3 (Sep 12, 2005)

and i just saw a couple of clips on youtube, and by the looks of it, dude would of eaten the NBA fo real, damn he could shoot the 3, inside, 18footer (in your face by the way), dunk. I could definetly say having Len Bias on that Boston team......that would of changed the landscape of the NBA as we know it, and whoever said he wouldnt get the ball because of Danny Ainge and Bird, ***** PUH-LEASE!!! thats basically saying u would rather Bird or Ainge have it instead of Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant....i would rather Bird in the clutch a lot but Ainge??? r u serious Bias would shoot ainges lights out and dunk on his *** too.....

Ive always been attracted to the Len Bias Legend bandwagon, but i never actually seen him play....now that i have he reminds me a lot of the LeBron/Nique mold with a beautiful shot and shotblocking abilities....i doubt the Detroit Bad boys could of stopped the Celtics machine and this really is the factor that would of changed the landscape, not the LB vs MJ thing.....


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

he was pointing out that bias would have come off the bench for the celts at first, with bird at the 3 and ainge at the 2. i don't think bias really would have played much if at all at the 2. he would have been in the frontcourt rotation with bird, parish and mchale. and any 3 of them could play together at the same time. he would obviously have had playing time. 

and i'll reiterate the cummings/wilkins comparison.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2006)

The MAMBA said:


> Len Bias in college, was about as COLD as they come. Many projected him to be as good as Mike, with just as much athleticism, but with an even better jumper. Those young kats around here may not know about him, but to the people here who saw him play...how do you think he would've stacked up? That Celts/Bulls rivalry would have been intense with Jordan v.s. Bias. It's an unfortunate occurance that he died, but how would you have saw him panning out if he ever got to compete in the NBA?


As cold as he was in college, Len got a lot colder on June 19, 1986.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

Len was a good passer. Just a good 1. Nowhere near as good as LeBron is though @ passing. The only comparison I see between them is that they are both really strong & athletic. Also Bias was 1 of the top shot-blockers in his final yr in college. He had better defensive instincts than LeBron did atleast help side. I also think Len is also a little bit superior in the rebounding department. Kind of like a Larry Johnson type of rebounder.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

bias averaged 0.4 bpg as a senior. he blocked 14 shots. he averaged 7 rpg as a senior in 37 mpg. lj averaged 11 in 32 mpg (people forget how much of a freak lj was).


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

I just watched a tribute video to Len for the first time in a couple months. They always make me tear up.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

This is a nice tribute to Bias:

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4qHB7TAoUUc"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4qHB7TAoUUc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

Yep, that was one of the couple I just watched. I like the "Runnin'" one, too. It's a real tragedy. Hard to believe there hasn't been a MMP, yet.


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## jericho (Jul 12, 2002)

This thread is so speculative it makes my brain quiver. Why not debate Hank Gathers vs. Lebron James?

I bid my sincere respect to those greats and almost-greats and who-knows-whether-they-would-have-been-greats who have passed on... and I'm on to another thread.


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