# Why is there a double standard for kobe?



## beautifulkobe (Jun 24, 2002)

If I was in kobes position I think I would of shot myself already.He gets flack for everything he does and doesnt.Have you ever seen a player get so much crap and no respect from the nba and fans.Tmac and iverson are aloud to score 40 a game but if kobe does it he is selfish and a ballhog.He either passes too much or shoots to much.He never wins either way.even vince who is out again with injury who swore he would get back and play amazing and make everyone eat their words.Well he isnt even getting critized.Spreewell isnt getiing half the critism kobe is getting.neither Ming.Its ridiculous.What exactly is kobe being critised for?

A few days ago espn had his picture of kobe and stack after the wizards game and the note beside it said kobe WHO HAS BEEN GETTING CRITIZED A LOT LATELY scored 27 points.

I was like what did he do thats so bad.Its not like he stole or abused his wife.He has done nothing but try to lead his team to a win.

Now lots of people are saying tmac is better then kobe cause of his play but kobe is ahead of tmac in every category except points.He gets no credit with or without Shaq.

I dont get how he deals with this every day.No respect for the guy when he has done much more then some players will have done in a lifetime.

Whats your take on this?


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

Saying that Kobe gets no credit, and that he only gets criticism is a real stretch. Do you realize that everytime the Lakers play on National TV that Kobe is literally getting glowing reviews by the commentators for every second of the game? Did you see the nba.com poll that revealed that GM's across the league see Kobe as the best player not named Shaq? What sad lakers fans need to understand is that Kobe gets more love nationally than he does criticism. Have you noticed that 13 shots is a very low number for a great player? Don't you find it peculiar that Kobe didn't shoot the ball in the last 10 minutes of the Cleveland game? Don't you think he deserved some flack for not taking more shots to help his undermanned team win? Then he goes out and takes 47 shots. All anyone wants from Kobe is for him to find a place in between 13 and 47. You can't keep going from one extreme to the next.


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## beautifulkobe (Jun 24, 2002)

Kc its not a stretch by any means.Read that espn article by that guy on this forum.Its not just laker fans who think this way.A lot people dont get why he gets crap for everything.


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## kingofkings (Jun 9, 2002)

Has anyone realised that Fisher is averaging 6 points per game on flat 30% shooting and 25% from three point land??

Horry is shooting 32% with 26% from 3 point land.

I mean when your 2nd and third options on offense are shooting this low, how can you expect Kobe to carry the team, when his supporting cast, or NBA caliber starting players, cannot hit the side of a barn.

I have not commented once on the Kobe debates, as there is just too many of them. But I agree, whatever this guy seems to do, it just gets blown up 10 times. Whether it is because he is a superstar or not, he is just a guy that everyone loves to hate. That is a fact.

The Lakers are a team that is built around Shaq, Kobe included and when you take the number one factor out of the team, naturally, the walls are going to crumble.

As I said, when your 2nd and 3rd options on offense are clearly not supporting Kobe at the moment, in Fisher and Horry, naturally the team is going to struggle.

This guy just cannot win with fans. One game he has taken too many shots, the next game he has not taken enough shots. He just cannot win.

After he scored 31 points in the All-Star game, everyone was saying what a ballhog he was. But, if he was to have scored 10 points, he would be considered overrated and not elite enough.

No-one can deny how good he is and how great that he will become. He is only 24 years old.

It is so easy to criticise him and say that he is a freerider on Shaq's coatails, but when his career is over, no-one is going to give a stuff about the game where he shot the ball 47 times, or when he shot the ball 13 times against the Cavs.

He will be judged on the way that he was an integral part of the Lakers three peat and maybe many more. That is all that matters.....


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> Saying that Kobe gets no credit, and that he only gets criticism is a real stretch. Do you realize that everytime the Lakers play on National TV that Kobe is literally getting glowing reviews by the commentators for every second of the game? Did you see the nba.com poll that revealed that GM's across the league see Kobe as the best player not named Shaq? What sad lakers fans need to understand is that Kobe gets more love nationally than he does criticism. Have you noticed that 13 shots is a very low number for a great player? Don't you find it peculiar that Kobe didn't shoot the ball in the last 10 minutes of the Cleveland game? Don't you think he deserved some flack for not taking more shots to help his undermanned team win? Then he goes out and takes 47 shots. All anyone wants from Kobe is for him to find a place in between 13 and 47. You can't keep going from one extreme to the next.


KC who are you kidding nothing Kobe could do could transform you into a Kobe and laker fan anyway so what happy medium are you talking about, When he shoots 30 times and loses people including you say he can't carry a team, so to say that its one extreme or the other is silly, fact is if you don't like him you don't like him and thats a personal decision but to suggest that he could do something that everybody could come to a consensus about is not true,He can't please those who don't like him period, the extreme's you speak about is just sports nothing unusal every now and then a player will have stats that will spike like that,the other games played this year have been consistently the same as far as shot attempts go diifferent game situations call for different things, all I say is don't use something ridiculous to discredit the man and then act like its a valid criticism, AI is loved and the Man DOESN'T EVEN CARE ABOUT PRACTICE HOW RIDCULOUS BUT WHERE'S THE BASHING, There's plenty about every players game and including your sacred JAY WIILIAMS to criticize thats valid but when those players don't perform up to par I don't think he gets criticzed as harshly its all ways some excuse or other to mask the obvious I didn't like the damn 47 shots that was stupid but you say he did what he had to do, come on your not serious , then you rip him for taking 13 shots had you not pinned yourself in a corner about the 13 shots you would have bashed him about the 47 shots but now it he did what he had to do. please. I ha dno problem with the 13 shots basketball is a team sport and to go out Iverson style to me is not what I call playing the right way, I like what Kobe did against the Wizards he took 21 shots and the teammates helped and he allowed them to help,against the Cavs if he had taken 8 more shots do you really think that would've changed the outcome of a 18 point game, not hardly. Illgauskas was killing them and no one else could hit shots he tried to let them help him win a game, They never hardly win when he has inflated shot attepts 1st game against the Spurs he jacked it up 30 times and they lost the game also so less means more sometimes for his team the more off a factor the other guys are the more he has a chance to win.


BEAUTIFUL I think Kobe suffers from MJ backlash, with his walk ,talk, and game very similar to MJ's I think he catches flack because of it every player who was compared to MJ career ARCH seemed to take a nosedive from Stackhouse early with Philly he was compared and then killed for inconsistent play, Grant Hill in Detroit was compared then he started hearing the soft label he toughed it out in the playoff trying to prove in fact he was tough and has been hurt ever since, Harold Minor nuff said, Vince Carter hyped , he flew he crashed and burned, Kobe is the only one who's career ARCH continues to rise similar to the way MJ's did and that bothers some people they don't like the fact that he Mimicks MJ so closely, of course the experts love him for the same reason they loved MJ but some fans resent Kobe for it I think he gets plenty of love but as he ages some of the dissenters will come to like him to right now he's too young brash and arrogant for some people to take, it'll change though as he ages and humbles him self some, its not a problem for me but to others it is.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> KC who are you kidding nothing Kobe could do could transform you into a Kobe and laker fan anyway so what happy medium are you talking about, When he shoots 30 times and loses people including you say he can't carry a team, so to say that its one extreme or the other is silly, fact is if you don't like him you don't like him and thats a personal decision but to suggest that he could do something that everybody could come to a consensus about is not true,He can't please those who don't like him period, the extreme's you speak about is just sports nothing unusal every now and then a player will have stats that will spike like that,the other games played this year have been consistently the same as far as shot attempts go diifferent game situations call for different things, all I say is don't use something ridiculous to discredit the man and then act like its a valid criticism, AI is loved and the Man DOESN'T EVEN CARE ABOUT PRACTICE HOW RIDCULOUS BUT WHERE'S THE BASHING, There's plenty about every players game and including your sacred JAY WIILIAMS to criticize thats valid but when those players don't perform up to par I don't think he gets criticzed as harshly its all ways some excuse or other to mask the obvious I didn't like the damn 47 shots that was stupid but you say he did what he had to do, come on your not serious , then you rip him for taking 13 shots had you not pinned yourself in a corner about the 13 shots you would have bashed him about the 47 shots but now it he did what he had to do. please. I ha dno problem with the 13 shots basketball is a team sport and to go out Iverson style to me is not what I call playing the right way, I like what Kobe did against the Wizards he took 21 shots and the teammates helped and he allowed them to help,against the Cavs if he had taken 8 more shots do you really think that would've changed the outcome of a 18 point game, not hardly. Illgauskas was killing them and no one else could hit shots he tried to let them help him win a game, They never hardly win when he has inflated shot attepts 1st game against the Spurs he jacked it up 30 times and they lost the game also so less means more sometimes for his team the more off a factor the other guys are the more he has a chance to win.


Your attempts at putting words in my mouth and your incredible knack for misinterpreting my posts has gotten annoying. I will respond to the first couple of lines to your post, because after that, I quit reading.

This discussion has NOTHING to do with my personal opinion of Kobe. Have you ever heard of the term "happy medium?" I don't think you have because you use it in the wrong context when responding to my post. Do you agree that there is a huge difference between 13 and 47 shots? If your answer is yes, then you have proven my point and there is no need to further discuss this. He needs to find a number of shots that helps his team win. I thought he played well against the Wizards. I didn't come and "bash" him. There is no need to bash him when he is playing up to par.

I finished reading with your blurb about Jay Williams. He has no relevance at this point in the discussion. However, he is a rookie so he shouldn't be expected to be held to the same standards as Kobe Bryant.

Thank you.


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## Wiggum (Jul 29, 2002)

I don't think anyone here is seriously saying Bryant "sucks" or whatever because of his games against Cleveland and Boston. In the game against Cleveland, he took only 13 shots, and took 0 shots in the last 10 minutes of the game. That was a poor choice on Bryant's part. In the game against Boston, he takes 47 shots, which was also a poor choice. Bad choices. He needed to take a lot of shots against Boston, yes, but 47 shots is incredible, and I don't think criticism of this is completely unfounded.

Bad choices. If you make bad choices, you're going to get criticized for them. The more popular you are with fans, the louder that criticism is going to be. I'm sorry, beautifulkobe, but that's just the way it is.

Also, I don't think it's fair to say Bryant is the only player that gets criticism. Chris Webber has been railed mercilessly on these boards as a choker. Allen Iverson is called a ballhog for his shooting. Vince Carter was criticized for the fact that the Raptors appeared to play better without him. Antoine Walker is criticized for his lack of low-post game. Vlade Divac is widely criticized for his flopping, which the majority of NBA players do anyway. Dikembe Mutombo is criticized for his stone hands. Jason Kidd is criticized for his bad jumpshot. The list goes on and on and on...

I'm really sorry you don't think you're favorite player isn't getting any respect, beautifulkobe, but believe me, he is.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Your attempts at putting words in my mouth and your incredible knack for misinterpreting my posts has gotten annoying. I will respond to the first couple of lines to your post, because after that, I quit reading.
> ...



KC you don't like him and thats fair so stop suggesting that he can appease you in some sort of way by taking shots more up to par it's one game not a pattern so stop ranting about the selfishness of it and except is an statistical oddity, how many times in his career has he shot 47 times probably none but he's shot close to 13 times plenty, it may sound like an excuse because it may be I'm bias , at least I admit my bias rather than fall back on the garbled explanation as valid , your criticism is driven by your bias, Jay Wiiliams is a rook but hey lets not criticize him because of the excuse of being a rookie, seems valid enough IF YOU'RE A BULLS FAN but others may not see it that.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> KC you don't like him and thats fair so stop suggesting that he can appease you in some sort of way by taking shots more up to par it's one game not a pattern so stop ranting about the selfishness of it and except is an statistical oddity, how many times in his career has he shot 47 times probably none but he's shot close to 13 times plenty, it may sound like an excuse because it may be I'm bias , at least I admit my bias rather than fall back on the garbled explanation as valid , your criticism is driven by your bias, Jay Wiiliams is a rook but hey lets not criticize him because of the excuse of being a rookie, seems valid enough IF YOU'RE A BULLS FAN but others may not see it that.


I will adress your points one at a time:

Me liking or disliking Kobe has nothing to do with the fact that he garnered criticism for taking 47 shots. I understand that it is a one time thing, so you say, and it isn't relevant. I agree. I don't even know why you are arguing this point, because I never siad that it would become a trend. Stop ranting about it? Well, stop ranting about Kobe receiving criticsm. If you don't want to hear the reasons why he gets it, then get the lakers fans to stop asking the questions and starting the threads.

My criticsm is rarely ever *driven* by my bias. Is it influenced? Of course it is. This subject, however, has nothing to do with my bias. It has to do with Kobe taking 47 shots and getting flack. I think that the criticism that he received after that game was valid. Kobe himself would probably agree.

I don't know how J-Will entered the discussion, but I will try to respond to your point. I never said taht he is above criticism. In fact, I have criticized him plenty. I don't let the fact that I am a Bulls fan get in the way of evaluating player performances. If that means I have to say Jay played a bad game, then that is what I will say. Getting beyond that is what you must learn. In all of your ranting, I haven't heard you weigh in on the 47 shot game. Now, I don't want to hear about it being a one time thing and not being a trend. I want you to analyse the game for what it was. A loss, in which Kobe took 47 shots. Do you really beleive that he deserves no criticism for that performance?


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The one thing in common all those players mentioned there have is they haven't won a damn thing, when you don't win I expect players to get criticism but when you're the 3 time defending champion it should slow down but in Kobe's case it intensifies, I remember when Pippen was considered soft but after they became champions that wasn't said as much anymore in fact I can remember Collins ranting on and on about how tough Pippen was for playing through the pain of a bad back it changed for him but not for Kobe I can't ever remember a time that a Star who became a champion absorb as much criticism.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> The one thing in common all those players mentioned there have is they haven't won a damn thing, when you don't win I expect players to get criticism but when you're the 3 time defending champion it should slow down but in Kobe's case it intensifies, I remember when Pippen was considered soft but after they became champions that wasn't said as much anymore in fact I can remember Collins ranting on and on about how tough Pippen was for playing through the pain of a bad back it changed for him but not for Kobe I can't ever remember a time that a Star who became a champion absorb as much criticism.


So because he is a champion, he should never be criticized? Even if he has a bad game, like he did against the Cavs and Celtics?


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## Wiggum (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> The one thing in common all those players mentioned there have is they haven't won a damn thing, when you don't win I expect players to get criticism but when you're the 3 time defending champion it should slow down but in Kobe's case it intensifies, I remember when Pippen was considered soft but after they became champions that wasn't said as much anymore in fact I can remember Collins ranting on and on about how tough Pippen was for playing through the pain of a bad back it changed for him but not for Kobe I can't ever remember a time that a Star who became a champion absorb as much criticism.


I see...so it's not really about whether or not the criticism is valid. Because Bryant is on the Los Angeles Lakers, he is above criticism. Right?


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

*He is the second best player*

on a team with LA's history...that is on tv all the time(not counting commercial) and has won 3 straight titles. Get used to it guy, i can't believe you aren't already. He will and should be held to a different standard until their great run has ended. He is a big boy he can take it.


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## beautifulkobe (Jun 24, 2002)

Yes other players get crap but not half as much as kobe.Where is rosens article about iverson or carter.Do I see columns written about them.Champion or not it is ridiculous that he gets critised for every dam thing.You know its true.No player gets more critism then kobe.Noone!

I just dont get why!Hell Shaq gets less crap then kobe.

Oh and about kobe being on tv.When did I see a commercial with kobe in it.Hmm last years playoffs.Tmacs, and iversons commercials are shown all the time especially tmac.But yet people say kobe is on tv too much.


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## beautifulkobe (Jun 24, 2002)

Again Tom why should kobe be held to different standard.Is Shaq?Is Tmac,iverson,vince etc.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> Yes other players get crap but not half as much as kobe.Where is rosens article about iverson or carter.Do I see columns written about them.Champion or not it is ridiculous that he gets critised for every dam thing.You know its true.No player gets more critism then kobe.Noone!
> 
> I just dont get why!Hell Shaq gets less crap then kobe.
> ...


Are you kidding? Were you out of the country during the whole Iverson fiasco? That got full media attention and yes there were many articles written about him.

Kobe's commercials get played a lot. Did you watch the finals the last 2 years? How many times did we get to see Kobe holding the little kids hand in that McDonalds commercial? What about him dribbling the ball in his living room or the one where the guy makes a special basketball and Kobe says "Thanks, this one's perfect!"


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wiggum</b>!
> 
> 
> I see...so it's not really about whether or not the criticism is valid. Because Bryant is on the Los Angeles Lakers, he is above criticism. Right?



No I don't really care about the criticism I said in an earlier post if you would've read it that all players have valid things in their games to criticize its not a Laker thing its an observation about the frequency of his criticism, Tolbert, and Walton mentioned this on TV so don't suggest this is a homers rantings its just what it is, But to try and create a criticsim when there isn't one is stupid, and the one about the 13 shots is less valid than the 47 shots thats all . The Lakers win more games with Kobe taking less shots than around 30 so taking 13 doesn't signal an alarm to real Laker fans who follow this team people who don't drop in uninformed and talk crap because they don'ty like the man anyway thats all I'm saying. 


TMac shot the ball 3 times in the 4th quarter of todays game where's the post about that where.

KC my bias is obvious but your bias against him are too, you mentioned Williams triple double in an earlier post but not Kobe's why because Wiiliams plays for your favorite team . Which doesn't bother me but to try an act impartial when you're clearly not is silly.


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## beautifulkobe (Jun 24, 2002)

That was such a long time ago.He hasnt had a commercial on since last playoffs.that is what I was saying before.


I said iverson doesnt get half as much crap that kobe does which is true.He is taking so much heat right now its ridiculous.Did you hear marv albert,chad ford,george karl,rosen,tex etc slam kobe this week.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> KC my bias is obvious but your bias against him are too, you mentioned Williams triple double in an earlier post but not Kobe's why because Wiiliams plays for your favorite team . Which doesn't bother me but to try an act impartial when you're clearly not is silly.


I also didn't mention the hundreds of other people who have gotten triple-doubles. I must be biased against them.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you kidding? Were you out of the country during the whole Iverson fiasco? That got full media attention and yes there were many articles written about him.
> ...


Lets not get it twisted I'm talking about here as anywhere else, Kobe's the most talked about and criticized player on this site period, AI is a blip on the screen compared to Kobe and he does none of the things AI does off the court or on his team that AI does.But I get it most of the people wish Kobe left the Lakers then maybe they're team would have a chance to win. The frustratiobn of the Lakers getting so much pub bother some I hated the Bulls during their run saw I can understand the frustration.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> I also didn't mention the hundreds of other people who have gotten triple-doubles. I must be biased against them.


You said it I didn't you said who you favored because you weren't trying to be impartial just biased by mentioning the guys you like. 

I get it you don't like Kobe thats fine, at least be man enough to admit your not impartial it'd make your actual good points more valid time to move on from this its getting redundant .


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> Lets not get it twisted I'm talking about here as anywhere else, Kobe's the most talked about and criticized player on this site period, AI is a blip on the screen compared to Kobe and he does none of the things AI does off the court or on his team that AI does.But I get it most of the people wish Kobe left the Lakers then maybe they're team would have a chance to win. The frustratiobn of the Lakers getting so much pub bother some I hated the Bulls during their run saw I can understand the frustration.


Yeah, that's it.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> You said it I didn't you said who you favored because you weren't trying to be impartial just biased by mentioning the guys you like.
> ...


Yes, I know. If I admit that I hate Kobe and the Lakers, I might get more respect from jazzy1. Let me do that right away!!!


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

Kobe is not as great as Jordan.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> Kobe is not as great as Jordan.


:starwars: 

You've opened up the flood gates John!


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## Wiggum (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> That was such a long time ago.He hasnt had a commercial on since last playoffs.that is what I was saying before.
> 
> 
> I said iverson doesnt get half as much crap that kobe does which is true.He is taking so much heat right now its ridiculous.Did you hear marv albert,chad ford,george karl,rosen,tex etc slam kobe this week.


I'm not sure I know what you're saying...we're supposed to feel sorry for Bryant because he hasn't had a commercial deal since last playoffs...?

And, about Iverson, *what are you talking about?* Iverson was charged with armed assault last summer and received a ton of negative media. Do you not remember this? Do you *really* think a few mild criticisms about BASKETBALL are worse than criminal charges and a frenzy of negative press?

Also, about the "slammings" against Bryant...if this is how you're going to act every time somebody says something bad about Bryant, you're not going to be very happy for very long. If he has bad games, people are going to talk about them. Period. I'm sorry, beautifulkobe, I really am, but people are going to criticize Bryant if he messes up. That's just the way it is. Tex Winters told Bryant "You played stupidly." Well...he DID play stupidly. He went 9-29 from the field that night. Isn't Tex Winters' job as a coach to make sure players learn from their mistakes? What did you want him to say?


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## HBM (Oct 17, 2002)

In the games that Kobe took 13 and then 47, the critisism was justified. He is a top five player in the league operating without the number 1 player in the league. Of course he is gonna be put under the microscope, because people just want to know; Can Kobe blossom without Shaq? It is a valid question and one that is being answered somewhat as we go


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> I just dont get why!Hell Shaq gets less crap then kobe.
> 
> Oh and about kobe being on tv.When did I see a commercial with kobe in it.Hmm last years playoffs.Tmacs, and iversons commercials are shown all the time especially tmac.But yet people say kobe is on tv too much.


Why should Shaq get less crap then Kobe? Honestly doesn't Shaq, bound well, score, alter shots, draw fouls, and now finally pass well? He can't hit fts, but I still hear about that problem, how he steps over the line, and how he is always trying something new...

Kobe is on TV, I saw him in a sprite commercial just yesterday evening... He is in as many commericals if not more then T-Mac, because Kobe has alot more sponsors.

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> But I get it most of the people wish Kobe left the Lakers then maybe they're team would have a chance to win. The frustratiobn of the Lakers getting so much pub bother some I hated the Bulls during their run saw I can understand the frustration.


Haha, what are you thinking? This is another insane Laker fan's view... look at the Laker's record right now, and how they played in this unit last year... If we wanted all our teams to have a "better" chance of winning, it would be Shaq to leave the Lakers... not Kobe.

-Petey

Edited for being a jerk...


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HBM</b>!
> In the games that Kobe took 13 and then 47, the critisism was justified.


The critisism would only be justified if he passed off some of those shots to Horry, George, Walker or Fisher and that they would of shot a better percentage.

Personally I felt more comfortable watching Kobe shoot a contested 10 footer than seeing those guys take a open 18 footer in that game.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>beautifulkobe</b>!
> If I was in kobes position I think I would of shot myself already.He gets flack for everything he does and doesnt.Have you ever seen a player get so much crap and no respect from the nba and fans.Tmac and iverson are aloud to score 40 a game but if kobe does it he is selfish and a ballhog.He either passes too much or shoots to much.He never wins either way.even vince who is out again with injury who swore he would get back and play amazing and make everyone eat their words.Well he isnt even getting critized.Spreewell isnt getiing half the critism kobe is getting.neither Ming.Its ridiculous.What exactly is kobe being critised for?
> 
> A few days ago espn had his picture of kobe and stack after the wizards game and the note beside it said kobe WHO HAS BEEN GETTING CRITIZED A LOT LATELY scored 27 points.
> ...


Kobe made a lot of enemies when he first entered the league. Some of it was his fault and the rest could be blamed on the media. His faults..... his confidence level has always been high. Many people call him arrogant for this, but hey, Jordan was treated the same way. Because of their wills to win, work ethic, and arrogance critics disliked them early in their careers. 
The constant comparisions to MJ havent helped either. No MJ fan wants to see Kobe become greater than him or even hear people say he is as good, so they want to see him fail. He had his experience with failure, learned from it, and and got better. Kobe is succeeding at a level that no one ever anticipated. No one other than his fans that is. So it all makes sense that people hate Kobe. But being hated because your a winner is not such a bad thing. I think that's what keeps Kobe from letting the critics get to him. :grinning:


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## Wilt_The_Stilt (Jun 7, 2002)

Misery loves company...people don't like Kobe and judge him harshly because they can't stand that he is the 2nd best player in the league.


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## beautifulkobe (Jun 24, 2002)

Mike Kahn has never seen such critisism as he said today


"And then there is the Kobe Bryant phenomenon.Never before have I seen an affable superstar draw more conflicting feelings...from the best all around player in the game to a selfish gunner who doesnt care about his teammates."

"It is utterly amazing."


http://cbs.sportsline.com/nba/story/5877521


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

I'll state my reason for criticizing Kobe: the guy is title "the second best player" in the league. I can't disagree with this more. Shaq is the best player in the league because he is unguardable. Kobe, on the other hand, doesn't have the kind of dominance Shaq has. That is why he is not the second best player in the league. Players like Tim Duncan, T-Mac, KIdd, Garnett, etc. are all equally as dominant as Kobe, how come they're not the second best players o_0? I don't hate Kobe. I just try to convince people that he isn't a better player than everybody else. He's is good, but there are others who are just as good. Basketball doesn't revolve around Shaq and Kobe, you know. Accept the fact that the league is full of other good players. That's all.

Oh, and I wouldn't say Kobe is the most criticized player. I think AI and JWill are often criticized as well. The former for being a ballhog, and latter for being all flash, no substance.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>c_dog</b>!
> I'll state my reason for criticizing Kobe: the guy is title "the second best player" in the league. I can't disagree with this more. Shaq is the best player in the league because he is unguardable. Kobe, on the other hand, doesn't have the kind of dominance Shaq has. That is why he is not the second best player in the league. Players like Tim Duncan, T-Mac, KIdd, Garnett, etc. are all equally as dominant as Kobe, how come they're not the second best players o_0? I don't hate Kobe. I just try to convince people that he isn't a better player than everybody else. He's is good, but there are others who are just as good. Basketball doesn't revolve around Shaq and Kobe, you know. Accept the fact that the league is full of other good players. That's all.
> 
> Oh, and I wouldn't say Kobe is the most criticized player. I think AI and JWill are often criticized as well. The former for being a ballhog, and latter for being all flash, no substance.


those players may be as equally dominant as kobe, but they're resumes dont read as well.
Tmac & Garnett are widely known for noyt getting out of the 1st round of the playoffs.
Kidd & Duncan I do think as on Kobe's level, but Kidd has won a title, and Duncan IMO is ever bit as good as Shaq. They can't win because Kobe and Shaq are completely dominant as a dou, not individually. That why this is a team game unlike tennis & golf


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> those players may be as equally dominant as kobe, but they're resumes dont read as well.
> Tmac & Garnett are widely known for noyt getting out of the 1st round of the playoffs.
> Kidd & Duncan I do think as on Kobe's level, but Kidd has won a title, and Duncan IMO is ever bit as good as Shaq. They can't win because Kobe and Shaq are completely dominant as a dou, not individually. That why this is a team game unlike tennis & golf


Oh course their resume don't read as well, but of course they don't play with Shaq either... as you noted.

But if you take TMac, Garnett, Kidd or Duncan and replace him with Kobe... you think that you won't win one of the last 3 championships if not more?

-Petey


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## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

1) shaq - nuff said
2) tmac - top defensive player, scores, passes, rebounds, elevates teamates, talks smack 
3) duncan - reigning mvp
4) kidd - makes EVERYONE better. Makes the team win by himself. Good D. 
5) kobe -good all around game, good numbers, but does not elevate his teamates, has not shown ability to carry the team over period of time
6) garnett - good all around, lacks mentality to dominate completely, needs to be more assertive offensively
7) ai - instant offense, former mvp, finds a way to win, but is undersized and has poor D except for steals
8) Dirk - great offense, good rebounder. Questionable at best on defense.
8) pierce -  should be moving up this list soon

:rbanana: :rbanana: 

shaq is clear cut at #1
#2-4 are close
At #5, Kobe definitely better than all those ranked lower than him
#6-8 are close

The reason I did not put Kobe higher is that all the players #2-4 have shown that they can carry a team to the playoffs. If you think the Lakers are losing because Kobe has no supporting cast, I agree some, but consider this: JKidd went to a lottery team (the nets) and made them into a Finals team. He did not have great talent around him (since the team was a lottery team the year before). Thats why Kidd is ranked above Kobe. He makes guys like Keith Van Horn look like pretty good players. Kobe makes Kobe look great but is not good at making guys like Robert Horry and Derek Fisher look good. But that was in the east, you say. Well, the main thing seperating the east from the west is this guy named shaq. Swap kobe and kidd and do you think the lakers win the title? Very well could have happened. Nets make the finals? No, they would be playing like the lakers are playing now. Lottery team. Kobe would play well, but honestly he's playing pretty darn good right now and the lakers still suck without shaq. 

This is not a diss on Kobe. There is no shame in being ranked behind TD or Kidd or Tmac. Kobe's only 24 and he very well could be better than all the player I ranked above him except shaq, and Tmac could very well stay better (he's even younger i think).


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Kobe has and will always be a winner. whether you like it or not.*



> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> Oh course their resume don't read as well, but of course they don't play with Shaq either... as you noted.


I dont think Shaq helped Kobe win a dunk contest, allstar MVP, National high school player of the year awards. Shaq does helps with the championships, but that goes both ways. 
What? Kobe doesn't deserve his All NBA awards, all defensive team awards(Shaq usually doesn't make those), all star selections. he is perennial is all of these categories.



> But if you take TMac, Garnett, Kidd or Duncan and replace him with Kobe... you think that you won't win one of the last 3 championships if not more?
> 
> -Petey


Isn't this beside the point. You get credit for what you do, not what you could do.

Kobe could win with all of these players as well, why is that so hard to see. thats such a bias point of view.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>7thwatch</b>!
> 2) tmac - top defensive player, scores, passes, rebounds, elevates teamates, talks smack


The best defensive players, yet he's never won a defensive award???? Hmmmm  



> 5) kobe -good all around game, good numbers, but does not elevate his teamates, has not shown ability to carry the team over period of time


 Not only have they been to the playoffs they won the last 3 years, but wait..... That's Shaq's credit.  How about striking this quote because Kobe has not played without Shaq. You either give him the respect for what he's done or you dont make that comment. 


> The reason I did not put Kobe higher is that all the players #2-4 have shown that they can carry a team to the playoffs.


 Does K. Malone or Stockton lose greatness because they never individually showed they can lead a team to the playoffs. Like that's something to praise anyway.



> If you think the Lakers are losing because Kobe has no supporting cast, I agree some, but consider this: JKidd went to a lottery team (the nets) and made them into a Finals team. He did not have great talent around him (since the team was a lottery team the year before). Thats why Kidd is ranked above Kobe.


Kidd is in the east and the competition isn't as tough, plus they team Kidd has around him is the perfect team for his style of ball. He's needs fast, atheletic players, and thats what he got. Kobe's the same type of baller only he's a better scorer. But the guys around Kobe as old, slow, and often streaky shooters. That's why the Nets win and the Lakers without Shaq lose.



> Swap kobe and kidd and do you think the lakers win the title? Very well could have happened.


 I know Kobe is the difference maker. He has come through so many time in the clutch and thats the difference between him and Kidd.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

I'll just say this: don't base everything on resume. So what if Kobe won all these awards? Or even 3 championship rings? He's 2-6 with the Shaqless Lakers and that's what counts.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>c_dog</b>!
> I'll just say this: don't base everything on resume. So what if Kobe won all these awards? Or even 3 championship rings? He's 2-6 with the Shaqless Lakers and that's what counts.


2-6 with an ailing team? If there was actually a good point to be made about Kobe not leading his team, I'd acknowledge it. This is not a good point. The teams better players are hurt or injured. No one expected them to win and if they did you wouldn't hear me boasting about how great Kobe is without Shaq. Its just 8 games. I know you all that have made this comment dislike Kobe, but at least judge him fairly. Its okay to not like Kobe, but at least judge him by the same standards you judge everyone else. 
For Tmac fans, there will be a stretch this season(or whenever) when the Magic will lose consecutive games. Will you say he's not able to lead his team.
Same for Mavs fans, and Sac fans and so on & so forth.
8 games is not a fair accessment of how well or how poorly one player performs.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

fine, i'll give kobe more time. i just hope that the lakers don't go 2-10 before shaq comes back. -_-

i speak for myself when i say i do judge Kobe fairly. I'm not a hater. Kobe is a great player, but he's not above everybody else like shaq.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>c_dog</b>!
> fine, i'll give kobe more time. i just hope that the lakers don't go 2-10 before shaq comes back. -_-
> 
> i speak for myself when i say i do judge Kobe fairly. I'm not a hater. Kobe is a great player, but he's not above everybody else like shaq.


fair enough


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