# Bulls? Mirotic Is Worth The Wait



## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

*Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



> The reason for his delayed departure is a contract extension he signed with Real Madrid back in late April. The Spanish superpowers locked him down until the end of the 2015-16 season, setting his buyout at roughly two million Euros, only $500,000 (rising by $25,000 per season) of which the Bulls are allowed to pay.
> 
> Mirotic will be 25 at the end of that deal, and it wouldn’t be unprecedented for a team to wait that long. After all, the Spurs drafted Luis Scola in the second round in 2002, and he didn’t leave Spain until 2007 to play his first NBA game for the Rockets as a 27-year-old rookie.
> 
> ...


http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2011/12/30/gibson-bulls-mirotic-is-worth-the-wait/


----------



## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

I am thinking the rookie scale pays right at a million for someone drafted in his position, but I think they might have changed it for players in his position after a couple of years have passed. At any rate he'd lose half a million dollars in the buyout after his salary, plus US income taxes on a million dollars in salary (and maybe taxes from wherever he comes from) and his salary in Spain if he came over. So he would have to rich to play for the Bulls.


----------



## SWIFTSLICK (Aug 22, 2009)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

We won't see this guy until 2015. Still a wasted pick.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



SWIFTSLICK said:


> We won't see this guy until 2015. Still a wasted pick.



I assume this post is sarcastic?

Mirotic is clearly intended to be the Boozer replacement. Seems like good timing.


----------



## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

If he develops over there then he could probably get paid better than the rookie deal would pay him in the NBA. The CBA can kill you with a guy who actually turns out to be pretty good because there's nothing to stop an ACB team from paying him 4 or 5 million per year while the Bulls can only pay him the Rookie scale. That's what happened with Tiago Splitter, who was a good enough ACB player to get one of the better deals in Spain. Of course so far it does not look like a huge loss as he has not really developed into a factor for the Spurs.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

No way Mirotic is coming anytime soon. If he does decide to show up here, it will probably be when hes 30. Why would he give up big money in Europe for a rookie contract worth probably 1/4 of what he would make in Spain?

Hes locked in for 5 years. Rose would be 28 years old, Deng would be 31, Noah 31, Taj 31, Boozer retired, Omer 30 and who even knows if Jimmy Buttler would be in the NBA. 

Don't forget that Mirotic would need a couple of years of NBA development time. 

Wasted pick IMO, unless its traded of course.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> No way Mirotic is coming anytime soon. If he does decide to show up here, it will probably be when hes 30.


It's weird you seem to not care at all about being honest in your posts. You think Mirotic will wait 10 years to come over? Yeah, that's reasonable.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> It's weird you seem to not care at all about being honest in your posts. You think Mirotic will wait 10 years to come over? Yeah, that's reasonable.


I don't think he will come here PERIOD.

Why would he come here and make WAY less money?


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> I don't think he will come here PERIOD.
> 
> Why would he come here and make WAY less money?


How does your post make sense?


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> How does your post make sense?


I'm not going to argue with the ignorant.


----------



## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> How does your post make sense?


It's a negative outlook on something related to the Bulls. Makes perfect sense, nothing to see here.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Don't just reply with stupid no nonsense replies, if you feel like Mirotic is going to take less money to play with the Bulls 4 or 5 years from now then just say it. Hes making more money over there. DONT YOU THINK HE will be offered another contract if he continues to play well? 

WHY would he leave all that money on the table to come here and play?

Teams are willing to pay guys like Josh Childress and Rudy Fernandez upwards of 4-6 Million Euros a year... NET! You don't think some Euro team is going to offer the same to Mirotic? Oh yeah hes going to pass up that kind of money to come here and pay Crook County tax, Federal tax, State tax etc ... just because.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> I'm not going to argue with the ignorant.


Your argument was Mirotic will wait 10 years before coming over. It's apparent you don't actually have anything to cite in favor of that position. Just bluster, dishonesty, bile, etc. Same old, same old.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> Don't just reply with stupid no nonsense replies, if you feel like Mirotic is going to take less money to play with the Bulls 4 or 5 years from now then just say it. Hes making more money over there. DONT YOU THINK HE will be offered another contract if he continues to play well?
> 
> WHY would he leave all that money on the table to come here and play?
> 
> Teams are willing to pay guys like Josh Childress and Rudy Fernandez upwards of 4-6 Million Euros a year... NET! You don't think some Euro team is going to offer the same to Mirotic? Oh yeah hes going to pass up that kind of money to come here and pay Crook County tax, Federal tax, State tax etc ... just because.



He will make more in the NBA. There is no particular trend to the contrary.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> He will make more in the NBA. There is no particular trend to the contrary.


Year One Year two 3rd year Option
$1,003,800	$1,049,000	$1,094,100

Hes making what top 10 picks make here in Europe right now! In what Bizzarro world is making 1 million US more than making 3 million over there?

Some Mirotic Quotes

Mirotic said of his new contract. "This is just the beginning for me, because I want to stay in the club as long as possible."

"Time will tell exactly when I go over there or if I go (laughs). Right now, I’m happy and I want to reach my goals here."

He does plan on coming to the NBA hes just not sure when.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

After some years(maybe 2?), you no longer need to follow the rookie pay scale. Giving him a short contract like Asik with somewhat more than a rookie at his drafted position makes sense for both sides to me. If he doesn't pan out he returns to Europe where he was a success(at least if he doesn't regress) and if not he gets himself a nice NBA contract.


----------



## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

They changed the rules, but I don't know the exact details. It became obvious that an NBA team could not compete for European players if they continued to restrict them to the rookie scale. It still would not be enough so that you could bid against a guy who was getting something similar to the MLE, which is about where contracts top out over there.

I would not be surprised if at some point NBA rookies did not start out in Spain. For instance if an ACB wanted a guy picked at the end of the lottery it would not be outrageous for them to offer more than what the rookie scale is and at some point someone is going to be unhappy with whichever team picked them and just take more money to go to Spain. The IRS is a bit of a drag though, since those assholes still want you to pay your taxes no matter where you cash that check.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> Don't just reply with stupid no nonsense replies, if you feel like Mirotic is going to take less money to play with the Bulls 4 or 5 years from now then just say it. Hes making more money over there. DONT YOU THINK HE will be offered another contract if he continues to play well?
> 
> WHY would he leave all that money on the table to come here and play?
> 
> Teams are willing to pay guys like Josh Childress and Rudy Fernandez upwards of 4-6 Million Euros a year... NET! You don't think some Euro team is going to offer the same to Mirotic? Oh yeah hes going to pass up that kind of money to come here and pay Crook County tax, Federal tax, State tax etc ... just because.





mvP to the Wee said:


> After some years(maybe 2?), you no longer need to follow the rookie pay scale. Giving him a short contract like Asik with somewhat more than a rookie at his drafted position makes sense for both sides to me. If he doesn't pan out he returns to Europe where he was a success(at least if he doesn't regress) and if not he gets himself a nice NBA contract.



Thanks, this was my point.


----------



## PD (Sep 10, 2004)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Worth it or now 4-5 years from now, I am not exactly sure. However, Asik was a great investment.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> Thanks, this was my point.


What point? Hes still giving up a ton of money if he decided to come here. 


Maybe someone can clear up how the new CBA would affect this situation. Mirotic is going to be the highest paid player on Real if he chooses to re sign in 4 years, he would make around 6 million a year NET. You factor in a buy out, a lower contract here in the states, he would basically be losing money to play here. 

Everything Ive read on him is that he LOVES playing in Spain, he has interest in coming to the NBA but for now he absolutely loves his situation over there.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



PD said:


> Worth it or now 4-5 years from now, I am not exactly sure. However, Asik was a great investment.


Well I would not say it was a "Great" investment but it was a good one IMO. They got good return in a second round pick.. Great would have been getting Deandre Jordan or Luc Richard who went one pick ahead and one pick after Omer.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

I have read alot of people's thoughts on Mirotic both here and at realgm. The people who like the pick usually say Mirotic will be a nice player when he comes over here in a few years. Those who don't like the pick say he doesn't give us any value at this critical time when we're trying to win a title.

I hope people realize it does not need to be a short-term vs. long-term issue. Mirotic IS an asset...TODAY. We own his draft rights, and with his rising stock overseas that cannot be a bad thing. If we're in need of that final piece to win a title, his draft rights are a valuable trade sweetener especially for a rebuilding team. Imagine what Mirotic + Bobcats pick could get us...we could upgrade a position without losing anyone from our core. If we opt not to trade his rights, that gives us long-term value when he comes over. 

Bulls management is all about accumulating assets, retaining flexibility, and exhibiting patience. I think they are letting the season play out to see what we really have as a team this year. If we need an upgrade, we can assemble a really attractive trade package (ex: Korver/Brewer, Mirotic, Cats pick, Bulls' 1st for OJ Mayo, if Memphis continues to stink). Or just maybe we're good already and can actually use Mirotic down the road.


----------



## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

It's three years until you can offer outside of the rookie scale, unless they changed it.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



King Joseus said:


> It's three years until you can offer outside of the rookie scale, unless they changed it.


Factoring in his big buy out, I don't see him coming here for anything short of the MLE.. would the Bulls even consider paying him that?

Tiago Splitter got 3.6 from the Spurs.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



yodurk said:


> I have read alot of people's thoughts on Mirotic both here and at realgm. The people who like the pick usually say Mirotic will be a nice player when he comes over here in a few years. Those who don't like the pick say he doesn't give us any value at this critical time when we're trying to win a title.
> 
> I hope people realize it does not need to be a short-term vs. long-term issue. Mirotic IS an asset...TODAY. We own his draft rights, and with his rising stock overseas that cannot be a bad thing. If we're in need of that final piece to win a title, his draft rights are a valuable trade sweetener especially for a rebuilding team. Imagine what Mirotic + Bobcats pick could get us...we could upgrade a position without losing anyone from our core. If we opt not to trade his rights, that gives us long-term value when he comes over.
> 
> Bulls management is all about accumulating assets, retaining flexibility, and exhibiting patience. I think they are letting the season play out to see what we really have as a team this year. If we need an upgrade, we can assemble a really attractive trade package (ex: Korver/Brewer, Mirotic, Cats pick, Bulls' 1st for OJ Mayo, if Memphis continues to stink). Or just maybe we're good already and can actually use Mirotic down the road.


I agree with most of what you said but the one thing that gets me a bit worried is the part about accumulating assets and patience. They have a history of holding on too long to assets and being too patient. 

I too view Mirotic as an asset, I really don't expect him to ever play as Bull.


----------



## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



> For how long do you see yourself playing with Real Madrid?
> 
> NM: I re-signed for five years with an NBA out. We’ll see what happens. I still can’t tell if I’m leaving in two, three, four or five years. I’m thinking about this year right now. I can’t tell how long I’m going to stay.
> 
> ...


http://blogs.hoopshype.com/blogs/sierra/2011/10/03/nikola-mirotic-i-stayed-in-the-draft-because-of-chicago/

Other than this interview, there's not a whole heck of a lot out there. I don't think there's any definitive evidence anywhere that he'll be here in two years, three years, four years, or ten (outlandish as that number is). Your guess is as good as anyone else's. If he wants to come to the NBA, as he's said, he'll make it over.

There are reasons to stay and reasons to go. People can put together scenarios that make sense for him staying and for leaving sooner, it really comes down to what people want to believe. Putting one outlook above others when nobody knows what he's going to do but him is silliness.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



King Joseus said:


> [
> There are reasons to stay and reasons to go. People can put together scenarios that make sense for him staying and for leaving sooner, it really comes down to what people want to believe. Putting one outlook above others when nobody knows what he's going to do but him is silliness.


I stated my opinion and agreed with Swiftslick. I never once said everyone who thought he would be here in 2 or 3 years is WRONG. I stated perfectly reasonable reasons why he would not come here anytime soon all revolving around $$$. 

The only reason I heard that makes sense as to why he would come here is that he could make more money here. I just don't see the Bulls willing to pay him a lot of money when he does decide to come here. A wasted pick unless he gets traded, just my opinion, if you don't agree thats fine.


----------



## CroatianBullsFan (May 23, 2006)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

I believe he will come to NBA after his contract with Real Madrid ends. You are talking about 5 million contracts in Europe, but that kind of contracts are really rare over here. Only few players were paid so much. He could also take less money in NBA in his first contract because he would know that he would get more money in the future in case he becomes a good NBA player.

Regarding his quotes, of course he said that he is thinking just about Real at this moment. He is supposed to tell that.

And I am telling you. That guy is really good. I am not sure that Andrea Bargnani was a better player when he was 20 year old and played for Milano.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



CroatianBullsFan said:


> I believe he will come to NBA after his contract with Real Madrid ends. You are talking about 5 million contracts in Europe, but that kind of contracts are really rare over here. Only few players were paid so much. He could also take less money in NBA in his first contract because he would know that he would get more money in the future in case he becomes a good NBA player.
> 
> Regarding his quotes, of course he said that he is thinking just about Real at this moment. He is supposed to tell that.
> 
> And I am telling you. That guy is really good. I am not sure that Andrea Bargnani was a better player when he was 20 year old and played for Milano.



Welcome to the board! Thanks for your thoughts.


----------



## LIBlue (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Well, in reviewing the Omer Asik thread below, thebizkit69u was correct about Asik. His comments include:

- Last I heard he was working at the Istanbul McDonald's.

- Remember how hyped Tarlac was by Bulls and co I doubt Asik will ever set foot in the UC, I just have a feeling that hes going to get injured again.

- Call me crazy but I dont understand this whole let them develop oveseas mentality, I find it hard to believe that Omer Asik would become a better NBA player by not playing in the NBA or even the NBDL for that matter. I wouid rather have Asik develop his game in the NBDL where IMO the talent is equal or greater to what is found in the Turkish league.

I come to site rarely, moving to RealGM because of the posters like thebizkit69u.


----------



## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



LIBlue said:


> Well, in reviewing the Omer Asik thread below, thebizkit69u was correct about Asik. His comments include:
> 
> - Last I heard he was working at the Istanbul McDonald's.
> 
> ...


Some funny quotes, but if your preference is to get drowned out at RealGM, don't blame bizkit... there are plenty of negative posters there as well.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

if mirotic is any good the bulls will dip into their MLE to get him.

that said i dont see him as a successor for boozer at all, i dont see his game translating to be a starting nba 4 , he isn't a noted defender , or rebounder and his motor on that side of the ball is occasionally questioned, nor is any kind of post player, in the nba he is a big good shooting slow footed 3 somewhere between danilo galinari and bostan nachbar...depends on how he develops


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



LIBlue said:


> Well, in reviewing the Omer Asik thread below, thebizkit69u was correct about Asik. His comments include:
> 
> - Last I heard he was working at the Istanbul McDonald's.
> 
> ...


First of all these boards are better when... go elsewhere.

Second, Whats wrong with what I said lol. The first one is a joke, if you don't see that then again its good that you are leaving.

I was wrong about the injury concerns, I'm very very surprised Omer has been relatively healthy his whole tenure here.

As for the third thing I said, I still stand by what I said. All things equal and taking money/buy outs out of the equation I would prefer my prospects to develop under NBA coaches and playing against NBA talent. Only an Idiot thinks a player is better off developing overseas than in the NBA.


----------



## DunkMaster (Mar 1, 2011)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> Only an Idiot thinks a player is better off developing overseas than in the NBA.


There are two schools of thought as far as developing potential NBA players that come from overseas. One is that smaller/no minutes in the NBA is better than full-time minutes than overseas, and the other is normal minutes and gaining confidence is better than none or minumal minutes in the NBA. To call someone an idiot for believing in the former sounds childish and your constant derrogratory comments get old.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

I would rather a player develop in Europe for a period of time getting good minutes than riding pine in the NBA. However, I will say defensive toughness doesn't seem to develop well over there. Also, keep in mind a lot of the Euro players start in those leagues in their teens, sort of substituting for the college experience that you'd get in the US. I have a hard time seeing Euro experience being less valuable than NCAA experience. I do agree with Bizkit, though, that if you can actually earn some NBA minutes, that's probably going to be the most valuable experience. Oh well. It's not like the NBA has some right to sign up all talented basketball players in the universe. If a player wants to play in Europe, fine. The NBA, at this point, will remain the most competitive league, however, so if a player wants to play against the best in the world, the NBA is the place to be.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> I would rather a player develop in Europe for a period of time getting good minutes than riding pine in the NBA. However, I will say defensive toughness doesn't seem to develop well over there. Also, keep in mind a lot of the Euro players start in those leagues in their teens, sort of substituting for the college experience that you'd get in the US. I have a hard time seeing Euro experience being less valuable than NCAA experience. I do agree with Bizkit, though, that if you can actually earn some NBA minutes, that's probably going to be the most valuable experience. Oh well. It's not like the NBA has some right to sign up all talented basketball players in the universe. If a player wants to play in Europe, fine. The NBA, at this point, will remain the most competitive league, however, so if a player wants to play against the best in the world, the NBA is the place to be.


The quality of competition is better in the Euro League than in NCAA Basketball. It's actually hard for young players to get good playing time out there. Brandon Jennings saw 18 minutes per game, while Rubio received 23 a game in his final season. Both saw more their first season in the NBA and would have gotten much more playing time in college ball. It speaks well of Mirotic to be playing 25 a game at the age of 20.


----------



## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Mirotic finally starting and embracing his role as the go to guy is what I am liking about this.

Named MVP of December on almost 19ppg and 7rpg. That's quite the coming out party.

Seems like he would be a perfect fit next to Dwight if we can somehow nab him. Imagine trading Deng, Noah, and Gibson for Dwight 2-3 years down the road:

Rose
Rip/Brewer
Charlotte pick/Butler
Boozer/Mirotic
D12/Asik

That team could do some damage, and we would have guys behind the aging Rip/Boozer in a few years.


----------



## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Mirotic has been playing with Real Madrid this preseason... here are his lines so far that I could find:

v. Memphis: 5-11, 2-5 from 3, 2-2 from the line. 14 points, 7 rebounds, 1 steal, 3 fouls in 28:38
v. Toronto: 5-13, 1-6 from 3, 6-6 from the line. 17 points, 12 rebounds 3 blocks 2 TOs, 6 fouls in 36:41. 

They may rebroadcast these games on NBATV (or he may have more coming up)... if anyone gets a chance to see him play I'd be interested in their thoughts.


----------



## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

^ Watched the game last night. 

He has a great feel for the game, brought the ball up on some possessions and certainly wasn't shy in shooting the ball. He played like a skinny Bargnani that could rebound. 

Not sure he will ever be a complete NBA player, but he could certainly provide a spark off the bench.


----------



## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



Porn Player said:


> ^ Watched the game last night.
> 
> He has a great feel for the game, brought the ball up on some possessions and certainly wasn't shy in shooting the ball. He played like a skinny Bargnani that could rebound.
> 
> Not sure he will ever be a complete NBA player, but he could certainly provide a spark off the bench.


Thanks for the scouting report! 

I look forward to seeing him play with Derrick one day.


----------



## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

^ No problem. 

To be honest I was surprised by how big he was, never realised he had that much length. Definite potential, you'll be able to use Mootie from the Rockets as a comparison to how well he'll translate to the NBA this upcoming year.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Mirotic will be a decent player. Borderline starter, ideal 6th man kind of guy.


----------



## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Mark your words?


----------



## garnett (May 13, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



Dornado said:


> Some funny quotes, but if your preference is to get drowned out at RealGM, don't blame bizkit... there are plenty of negative posters there as well.


Less posters here, so mr negative stands out more.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



garnett said:


> Less posters here, so mr negative stands out more.


Yet MR Negative is right than most people on here... Go figure huh? 



> "Some positives," he said. "Some things he has to improve on. But he's highly skilled."


Thibs doesn't sound very excited about the possibility of Mirotic, I'm guessing hes not impressed with his defense.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> Yet MR Negative is right than most people on here... Go figure huh?
> 
> 
> 
> Thibs doesn't sound very excited about the possibility of Mirotic, I'm guessing hes not impressed with his defense.


the simple truth is you are defined in the nba most likely by who or what you defend.

and Mirotic has garnered praise for his offense only , thibs isn't going to give him a lot of based on just that . and all young players need time to develop on both sides of the ball.

if every day was a sunny day ...then what's a sunny day?


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

From Sheridan Hoops today:



> Bulls’ 2011 draft pick Nikola Mirotic is looking less and less like a mere Rising Star winner turned Euroleague MVP candidate; you get that once-in-a-decade feel when you watch him.


http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2012/10/18/gibsons-euroleague-power-rankings/


----------



## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

^ Maybe 20 years ago. Not anymore.


----------



## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



Porn Player said:


> ^ Maybe 20 years ago. Not anymore.


The one special skill that Mirotic has above all seems to be his shooting ability for his postion.

He has really picked up his rebounding and defense over the past year as well.

To me, he has 20 ppg and 8 rpg after a few seasons in the NBA written all over him, assuming he develops.


----------



## Firefight (Jul 2, 2010)

I'm surprised at some of the negativity.. (to a point).... Mitotic to me looks like he is becoming more and more like a future star in the NBA. 
His defense is obviously his biggest weakness, but I can't see that keeping him off the court. At age 21, he is already a better defender then Boozer simply because of his size. His length will help him with his lack of mass. 

Offensively, I can't see how you can't be excited about his future in the NBA.. He obviously has a nice outside shot and quick, easy high release. This alone will become a match up problem for other PFs. I was surprised at how well his low post game has proved. He has shown the ability to finish with both hands, has a nice turn around jumper from the block, and has more than 1 go to move. 
He also has shown the ability to put the ball on the floor and drive, although I know this will be harder to do in the NBA. 

Another year or two in Europe, and I think he will quickly change the mind of any doubters. 

Sent from my SGH-T999 using VerticalSports.Com App


----------



## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

I decided to bump this thread, since it seemed to be one of the only Mirotic-in-general threads... mvPtothewee made me hit youtube after that .gif he posted in the other thread... of recent vintage:


----------



## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

The song in this one gets pretty hilarious, just to warn you:


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Hes got one of the longest shot releases I have seen in quite some time. That could be a problem at the next level.


----------



## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> Hes got one of the longest shot releases I have seen in quite some time. That could be a problem at the next level.


I noticed that too... hopefully his height offsets some of that.


----------



## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Mirotic - MVP of Game 15 of the Endesa League



> Real Madrid’s power forward picked up 23 points, 6 rebounds and a PIR of 34 in the win against Fuenlabrada
> 
> Realmadrid.com
> 
> Pablo Laso’s Real Madrid keep making history and Mirotic is one of the key players in doing that. The Whites’ power forward has been chosen as the best player of a round of games for the Endesa League for the third time in his career. In this weekend’s derby win against Fuenlabrada he scored 23 points and picked up 6 rebounds for a PIR of 34. On offense, he provided four assists as well as scoring six two-point baskets, two three-pointers and all five free throws that he attempted. The Spanish-Montenegrin completed his performance with a block on a James Feldeine shot. This season, Mirotic has also been chosen as the best player in the Euroleague’s game 1 and for the month of October in the same competition.


Link


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



Dornado said:


> I noticed that too... hopefully his height offsets some of that.


Unless he shoots a fade-away like Dirk has done his entire career, I dont think the height will matter. Sure on wide open pick and pop situations its not going to be a problem, but in iso hes not getting that shot off in the NBA, not even close. 

Ryan Anderson is a guy who he gets compared to a lot, but Anderson has one of the quickest shot releases I have ever seen.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> Unless he shoots a fade-away like Dirk has done his entire career, I dont think the height will matter. Sure on wide open pick and pop situations its not going to be a problem, but in iso hes not getting that shot off in the NBA, not even close.
> 
> Ryan Anderson is a guy who he gets compared to a lot, but Anderson has one of the quickest shot releases I have ever seen.



On what planet does being 6'10'' not help you get a shot off? It's, y'know, a big reason why tall guys play basketball.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> On what planet does being 6'10'' not help you get a shot off? It's, y'know, a big reason why tall guys play basketball.


Come on lets not get into some pointless argument. You and everyone who watches basketball knows that 90% of the time a tall guy is being guarded by another TALL guy. So yeah, the height matters when hes shooting on undersized 3's/4's or when on a defensive switch but hes not going to get that shot off against tall lanky 3's and 4's, not with that long release. 

All I'm saying is that unless he cuts the release time a bit or uses the fadde, hes never going to get it off. If being tall is all it takes, why does Dirk almost exclusively fades away on his defended jumpers? 

I'm not trying to crap on Mirotic, I'm just pointing out something in his game that needs improvement.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Opinion hasn't changed on this guy. Very excited and hope he comes over for next season.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> Come on lets not get into some pointless argument. You and everyone who watches basketball knows that 90% of the time a tall guy is being guarded by another TALL guy. So yeah, the height matters when hes shooting on undersized 3's/4's or when on a defensive switch but hes not going to get that shot off against tall lanky 3's and 4's, not with that long release.
> 
> All I'm saying is that unless he cuts the release time a bit or uses the fadde, hes never going to get it off. If being tall is all it takes, why does Dirk almost exclusively fades away on his defended jumpers?
> 
> I'm not trying to crap on Mirotic, I'm just pointing out something in his game that needs improvement.



Ha, I get what you're saying, but to say that being 6'10'' isn't an asset in getting a shot off is just factually incorrect. He's a stretch 4. Being 6'10'' makes it way easier to get a shot off over a defender who is closing on you, and that can ameliorate to some degree a slow release. I'm not trying to say a slow release isn't problematic - but it's different for a guy who is 6'4'' than it is for a guy who is 6'10''. You can get away with a little more as a stretch 4 than a guard, given the personnel who can be expected to be closing out on you as you set up for a shot.


----------



## Fergus (Oct 2, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Like many young players, Mirotic will have weaknesses in his game. The point is that his pluses hopefully will outweigh his minuses. 

The real key will be how hard he is willing to work to improve. If he is willing to put in the effort there is a real chance he could be a special player. Look at the Bulls have done with players like Butler and Snell. Mirotic will be surrounded by hard working players and coached by a driven coach. I am optimistic.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

When you say look at what the bulls food with Snell and butler, what exactly do you mean?

They really aren't lighting the world on fire. Serviceable players at the moment.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Mirotic has won MVP of the Copa Del Rey. A lot of reports coming out today about him coming to the Bulls.

One CRAZY one has us going as high as 10 million annually for him:

http://encestando.es/florentino-per...o-pero-saben-que-su-deseo-es-jugar-en-la-nba/

In Bulls pregame live he apparently said: "I love Chicago, Chicago loves me. If they make a great effort for me, a decision will be made soon."


No way do I pay him $10 million annually. Probably $7 million tops.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



mvP to the Wee said:


> Mirotic has won MVP of the Copa Del Rey. A lot of reports coming out today about him coming to the Bulls.
> 
> One CRAZY one has us going as high as 10 million annually for him:
> 
> ...


It's not ideal to pay this much for a guy who hasn't played NBA ball. However the reality is that Mirotic's situation is unique and sort of unprecedented. He definitely has some leverage; a great situation in Europe with a team willing to pay him big money. And the Bulls need him with the Booz cruise going downhill fast. 

I look at it this way...what is the most likely production we get from him in his first 2-3 years in this league? I am guessing offensively we get similar to what Deng was producing on a per-min basis: 15-16 ppg, 45-46% FG, 7 boards, decent 3-pt shooting/floor spacing, and a few dimes. Could be less, could be more, but that is likely the median expectancy per ~36-min or so. Defensively there will be holes, at least in the short term. 

Deng is likely going to get $12M+ per year this off-season, and he has no upside left the way Mirotic does. And there are countless other players with that level of production earning $9M+ per season. I think we get our money's worth if we lock him in at $7-8M per season. Try to keep it to 3 years in case he flops (then again, if he excels a longer deal might be great thing at that cost...). Sure there are risks but I think the odds of him being the next Radmanovic like people are fearing are almost nill. Worst case you're getting a big man who is smart, battle tested, and can really shoot the ball. His floor is actually not very low if that's what folks are worried about.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

It's going to take at least 7-8 million to get him. Bye bye, Taj.


----------



## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> It's going to take at least 7-8 million to get him. Bye bye, Taj.


Can't you amnesty Boozer at the end of the year?


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



roux said:


> Can't you amnesty Boozer at the end of the year?


Yes, but there is no way in hell you pay a combined 18 million plus for Taj and Mirotic. This is where the bulls will have to take a gamble. They know what Taj is, so they are going to have to be fairly confident that Mirotic is the REAL deal and do whatever it takes to bring him over.

If you can flip Taj for Aaron Afflalo I think that's a good move. Orlando needs a decent big at the 4 and you gotta expect they will start Oladipo next year and probably draft a PG this year.


----------



## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

In 8 games as a starter Taj Gibson has put up 19.3 pts 9.8 rbs and 1.7 blks per game... total on a per 36 basis he's putting up 15 and 8 and playing great defense... I still think he's worth the 3 years 25 million or whatever it is he has left on his deal. 

To me the question here is whether or not Mirotic is worth it (10 million, or whatever the price tag), not Gibson. 10 million is pretty rich for a guy that hasn't played a minute of NBA basketball... that kind of payday better some with some confidence that he's going to be a decent starting 4 in the league. If you can get some kind of young asset for Gibson that helps the rebuild I'm all for it, I don't know that Arron Afflalo really fits that bill for me.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



Dornado said:


> In 8 games as a starter Taj Gibson has put up 19.3 pts 9.8 rbs and 1.7 blks per game... total on a per 36 basis he's putting up 15 and 8 and playing great defense... I still think he's worth the 3 years 25 million or whatever it is he has left on his deal.
> 
> To me the question here is whether or not Mirotic is worth it (10 million, or whatever the price tag), not Gibson. 10 million is pretty rich for a guy that hasn't played a minute of NBA basketball... that kind of payday better some with some confidence that he's going to be a decent starting 4 in the league. If you can get some kind of young asset for Gibson that helps the rebuild I'm all for it, I don't know that Arron Afflalo really fits that bill for me.


That's a very small sample size for Taj. I think it's almost a sure thing that if he started an entire 82 game season, his average will not come close to that. His per is probably best case scenario and its more believable but I just think these guys numbers this season are just a product of a horrendous NBA right now. But that's just my opinion.

Afflalo may not be young, but he's good and he fits what the bulls need. Heck isn't he just a year older than Taj?

The bulls need to decide if they are rebuilding or trying to win next season. Enough with the middle ground bs.


----------



## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> That's a very small sample size for Taj. I think it's almost a sure thing that if he started an entire 82 game season, his average will not come close to that. His per is probably best case scenario and its more believable but I just think these guys numbers this season are just a product of a horrendous NBA right now. But that's just my opinion.
> 
> Afflalo may not be young, but he's good and he fits what the bulls need. Heck isn't he just a year older than Taj?
> 
> The bulls need to decide if they are rebuilding or trying to win next season. Enough with the middle ground bs.


I think the numbers are a combination of bad NBA and playing in an offense that is desperate for someone to score. I think realistically he's a 13-15 ppg guy, 8-9 rbs, 1.5-2 blks as a full-time starter, somewhere in that range. The rebounding numbers get dragged down a bit by playing next to Noah, I think. He does have some non-box score strengths that add to his value.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



Dornado said:


> I think the numbers are a combination of bad NBA and playing in an offense that is desperate for someone to score. I think realistically he's a 13-15 ppg guy, 8-9 rbs, 1.5-2 blks as a full-time starter, somewhere in that range. The rebounding numbers get dragged down a bit by playing next to Noah, I think. He does have some non-box score strengths that add to his value.


I don't think Noah affects his rebounding, because if that was true Boozer would not be as strong a rebounder as he was. 

But for the most part I agree with what you said. Now the real question is do you pay a premium price for a prospect and a high price for an ok PF like Taj at the same time?

I don't think it's a good idea, and I highly doubt the bulls do it also.


----------



## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

If TNT's Craig Sager ain't lying (and Carlos Boozer hasn't been bamboozled), Boozer is playing out his contract unless the Bulls need to trade/amnesty him to get a superstar. If you believe this, then if Mirotic is going to paddle across the pond, he's going to have to do it for the $5.3mil MLE. As many have opined, this won't be enough.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



transplant said:


> If TNT's Craig Sager ain't lying (and Carlos Boozer hasn't been bamboozled), Boozer is playing out his contract unless the Bulls need to trade/amnesty him to get a superstar. If you believe this, then if Mirotic is going to paddle across the pond, he's going to have to do it for the $5.3mil MLE. As many have opined, this won't be enough.


Sager said bought out, not amnestied. They're similar, but not the same. My guess is the Bulls tricked Boozer with the wording.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



mvP to the Wee said:


> Sager said bought out, not amnestied. They're similar, but not the same. My guess is the Bulls tricked Boozer with the wording.


Also it's possible the Bulls have a taker for Boozer in the off-season via trade. A team under the cap can out right absorb Boozer's 1-year deal. Bulls would definitely prefer that over amnesty b/c then they don't pay anything (amnesty they still pay it, just doesn't hurt the cap).


----------



## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> I don't think Noah affects his rebounding, because if that was true Boozer would not be as strong a rebounder as he was.
> 
> But for the most part I agree with what you said. Now the real question is do you pay a premium price for a prospect and a high price for an ok PF like Taj at the same time?
> 
> I don't think it's a good idea, and I highly doubt the bulls do it also.


I don't know... this is what is nice about having a rookie contract scale... usually when these guys are entering the league for the first time these days you don't have to gamble on their value. If Mirotic is a starting 4 on a contender the right price is whatever it takes to get him over here, I guess. If he isn't the MLE would at least be a tolerable contract. I guess I think you keep Taj as an insurance policy in case Mirotic is a bust and as a high level backup if Mirotic is better than Taj is (which would be a good thing). If Mirotic really wants 10 million dollars (I saw that figure used before, not saying he does) we might just be ****ed for the time being, because we just don't have that kind of space right now. Trading Gibson for Afflalo isn't going to fix that conundrum.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



yodurk said:


> It's not ideal to pay this much for a guy who hasn't played NBA ball. However the reality is that Mirotic's situation is unique and sort of unprecedented. He definitely has some leverage; a great situation in Europe with a team willing to pay him big money. And the Bulls need him with the Booz cruise going downhill fast.
> 
> I look at it this way...what is the most likely production we get from him in his first 2-3 years in this league? I am guessing offensively we get similar to what Deng was producing on a per-min basis: 15-16 ppg, 45-46% FG, 7 boards, decent 3-pt shooting/floor spacing, and a few dimes. Could be less, could be more, but that is likely the median expectancy per ~36-min or so. Defensively there will be holes, at least in the short term.
> 
> Deng is likely going to get $12M+ per year this off-season, and he has no upside left the way Mirotic does. And there are countless other players with that level of production earning $9M+ per season. I think we get our money's worth if we lock him in at $7-8M per season. Try to keep it to 3 years in case he flops (then again, if he excels a longer deal might be great thing at that cost...). Sure there are risks but I think the odds of him being the next Radmanovic like people are fearing are almost nill. Worst case you're getting a big man who is smart, battle tested, and can really shoot the ball. His floor is actually not very low if that's what folks are worried about.


i pretty much see his situation mirroring toni kukoc's back in the early 90's, who also had european ball in the palm of his hand and was pretty dominant in that part of the world 

at the end of the day all the euroleague awards and titles mean little in the nba , its a different game in many aspects ...all that really matters is what mirotic can accomplish in the nba.


----------



## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

I sure hope Mirotic doesn't demand $10mil or anything close to that. Bulls' fans are notoriously hard on any Bulls' player who makes big money and doesn't put up big numbers. I foresee an adjustment period for Mirotic and it could get ugly.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



transplant said:


> If TNT's Craig Sager ain't lying (and Carlos Boozer hasn't been bamboozled), Boozer is playing out his contract unless the Bulls need to trade/amnesty him to get a superstar. If you believe this, then if Mirotic is going to paddle across the pond, he's going to have to do it for the $5.3mil MLE. As many have opined, this won't be enough.



I can't imagine the Bulls would lose out on a chance to bring Mirotic over just to live up to some promise purportedly extended to Boozer.

If they do keep Boozer and fail to bring Mirotic over, that strikes me as a money move and nothing else, unless somehow Boozer gets shipped off for real talent at the deadline.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



transplant said:


> I sure hope Mirotic doesn't demand $10mil or anything close to that. Bulls' fans are notoriously hard on any Bulls' player who makes big money and doesn't put up big numbers. I foresee an adjustment period for Mirotic and it could get ugly.


Considering the Buyout. Mirotic accepting anything under 7-8 million doesn't make any sense. Regardless of how he ends up playing, it might take 10 million just to find out. 

At least its not like the MLB and the Bulls have to pay some European team a 20 million posting fee just to win the rights to negotiate a contract.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> Considering the Buyout. Mirotic accepting anything under 7-8 million doesn't make any sense.


Running the numbers, this is not true.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> Running the numbers, this is not true.


The buy out is about 3-3.5 million Dollars

A full MLE of 5 Million means hes making about the same if not LESS than what hes making in Europe NOW. This isn't even taking into account how much Real Madrid is/has offered Mirotic in a new contract extension. The guy loves it in Spain and they are willing to pay him big time money to stay. 

Like I said 7-8 Million at LEAST, for him to even consider leaving.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> The buy out is about 3-3.5 million Dollars
> 
> A full MLE of 5 Million means hes making about the same if not LESS than what hes making in Europe NOW. This isn't even taking into account how much Real Madrid is/has offered Mirotic in a new contract extension. The guy loves it in Spain and they are willing to pay him big time money to stay.
> 
> Like I said 7-8 Million at LEAST, for him to even consider leaving.




Wrong. Did you think I was just talking out of my ass? Heh. This has been analyzed on this board at length, some time ago, and I am sorry to say you are simply incorrect on Mirotic making less than he makes now if he earns the MLE.

An MLE deal would pay Mirotic $2.3-2.5 million more over its 4-year term, depending on the amount of front-loaded signing bonus vs. salary.

http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-b...umbers-behind-the-mirotic-contract-situation/












> Starting in 2014, and only with the full MLE, it will begin to make financial sense for Mirotic to transfer over to the NBA.





> It will require the full MLE to pay off his entire buyout, and it will also require the full MLE for Chicago to match or raise his current salary.



So, Mirotic makes more starting in 2014-2015 by taking the MLE than he would make on Real Madrid. The only question then becomes whether Real Madrid was really serious about getting into a bidding war. It seems the Bulls have expected Real Madrid may do this, as their moves of late seem engineered to create cap space to complete the signing. I started a thread about that here a few weeks ago.


----------



## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Basketball players have a really short window to make their money, and that is without counting the risk of injury. If you are just a good player you will make more money with a basketball career in the NBA than you will in Spain. You can be a shit player like Navarro or Fernandez and seem like a star over there and make more than you are worth relative to NBA talent, but you won't make what you would here if you are the truth. I would not be shocked to see this guy stay in Spain because most of the guys in his position come over here and look bad, so he should just stay there and make his tax free money if he knows this. Not many of those guys are good enough for the NBA and we have seen guys like Vasquez never come.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

I'm just confused by the whole Bonus stuff. So break it down for me. 

Mirotic makes almost 5 million dollars now (before the proposed contract extension)
So how does the 5 million MLE make sense for him right now? 

Are you saying that the total 4 year deal will pay him more than say a 15 million Euro contract extension? 

You have to almost expect Real offering 5 million Euro a year at the minimum (since hes making already 3.5, wouldn't be much of an extension if it was just 4mil) thats almost 7 million a year US. 

Like I said, 7-8 makes it more likely that he comes over.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> I'm just confused by the whole Bonus stuff. So break it down for me.
> 
> Mirotic makes almost 5 million dollars now (before the proposed contract extension)
> So how does the 5 million MLE make sense for him right now?
> ...


and as mentioned by someone else i believe euro teams pay their player's taxes.

if you are a star you can make more here but...apparently he is already paid like one of their stars already.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> I'm just confused by the whole Bonus stuff. So break it down for me.
> 
> Mirotic makes almost 5 million dollars now (before the proposed contract extension)
> So how does the 5 million MLE make sense for him right now?
> ...


He only makes $4.4 million per year now, a difference of almost $1 million per year when compared to the mid-level exception.

And you are confusing things by discussing a possible extension. He is already signed through 2018. If anything, it would just be a renegotiation of his existing deal. That is not certain to occur. But it could. If it does, that is when the Bulls may need cap space to beat a possible renegotiated deal. It appears the Bulls fear this, and are making sure they will have at least some available cap space to deal with this scenario.

Long story short, unless real Madrid tears up his existing contract, he makes more money via the mid-level exception in the NBA.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Hes actually making 4.7 Million so the difference isn't all that great. My question then is, considering tax implications, is the MLE a significant pay raise over what he makes now? 

I still think its going to take more than the MLE. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. 

The whole point of a contract extension is to keep him in Europe. So you can only assume its going to be a significant offer from Real.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> Hes actually making 4.7 Million so the difference isn't all that great.


Source? I had one for $4.4 million and you have not cited one for $4.7.

Don't forget it varies due to the exchange rate.



> My question then is, considering tax implications, is the MLE a significant pay raise over what he makes now?


If you consider a couple million bucks over the course of four years significant, then yes.



> I still think its going to take more than the MLE. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.


The Bulls clearly think there is a chance that that's true, because they are arranging their salaries accordingly. You just don't have anyway to know at present.



> The whole point of a contract extension is to keep him in Europe. So you can only assume its going to be a significant offer from Real.


It's not an extension, it is tearing up and redoing the existing contract. But generally, yes, there is a concern that Real Madrid is going to sweeten the pot.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> Source? I had one for $4.4 million and you have not cited one for $4.7.


Hes making 3.5 mil Euro now, today thats $4.7 could be more or less tomorrow. Point is, its close enough to 5 million. 



> If you consider a couple million bucks over the course of four years significant, then yes.


Fair enough, But I doubt he really makes a significantly more money when you consider taxes. 



> It's not an extension, it is tearing up and redoing the existing contract. But generally, yes, there is a concern that Real Madrid is going to sweeten the pot.


Even if its NOT a brand new deal, lets just say they tack on 1 more year at 8 million Euro. The Bulls can't match that and Mirotic would be dumb to pass that up.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> Fair enough, But I doubt he really makes a significantly more money when you consider taxes.


Taxes are much higher in Europe.




> Even if its NOT a brand new deal, lets just say they tack on 1 more year at 8 million Euro. The Bulls can't match that and Mirotic would be dumb to pass that up.



A brand-new deal is what is being reported, not an extension, but either way the Bulls certainly _can_ match that.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

If Mirotic pans out, his next NBA contract will be something he could never see in Europe. If he busts, he probably gets the same money Real is offering him in their new contract.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



mvP to the Wee said:


> If Mirotic pans out, his next NBA contract will be something he could never see in Europe. If he busts, he probably gets the same money Real is offering him in their new contract.


Truth. The long-term earning potential in the NBA is much, much higher, so the first contract isn't the only relevant consideration.


----------



## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Just a quick note. While there is a conversion rate between the Euro and the dollar it is not quite that simple. In terms of what you can buy the Euro and the dollar are somewhat similar. So for example a latte / coffee at Starbucks in Paris (three Euro's) is pretty much the same as in the states (thee dollars) even through one Euro is like 1.4 dollars..

Things just cost more in Europe and Spain and remember in Europe there are more than just income taxes. Most countries have value added taxes and what not and the team does not cover those. So if you really want to convert the Euro's to dollars you have to also adjust for the much higher cost of living in Europe as well as the value added taxes. Thus, am not sure you can just convert his salary to dollars. In real value 5 million American dollars is a lot more than 3.7 million Euro's even after the tax on 5 million dollars.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Didn't we have the same debates re: Ben Gordon leaving for Europe? The money is better here and always will be.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> Taxes are much higher in Europe.


Yes its high, its 51% in Madrid. But the team basically pays for a players housing and other things as well. 

Consider the US is what 39% federal and 3% Illinois? Lower yes, but again, you consider taxes and the Buyout and that MLE still doesn't sound so enticing. 




> A brand-new deal is what is being reported, not an extension, but either way the Bulls certainly _can_ match that.


Sure they CAN, but will they? 

I'm not trying to make the argument that the Bulls will not bring over Mirotic, I'm just making the argument that its going to take MORE than the MLE to bring him over. 

I could be wrong though. Maybe Mirotic wants the challenge of playing in the NBA. But Real Madrid will make a very convincing offer to keep Mirotic in the land he loves making millions of Euros. 

I said a few years ago that I would not be surprised (heck I'm expecting it) if Real makes Mirotic the highest paid Euro-league player.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> Yes its high, its 51% in Madrid. But the team basically pays for a players housing and other things as well.
> 
> Consider the US is what 39% federal and 3% Illinois? Lower yes, but again, you consider taxes and the Buyout and that MLE still doesn't sound so enticing.
> 
> ...


Your post originally said that it would not make sense for him to come over "considering the buyout." That was what I was taking issue with. On the mid-level exception, he will still make more money, even considering the buyout.

So, the reason it may take more than the mid-level exception, and eat into cap space, is not the buyout, but the possibility that Real Madrid tears up his existing contract and offers him a more generous one. I agree with the broader point that you may need more than the mid-level exception to entice him to play for the Bulls. As I noted earlier, I started a whole thread dedicated to the notion that the Bulls were making moves to generate cap space for this very purpose.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

now the thread asks if mirotic is worth the wait?

what level of player must mirotic elevate to that will make it worth it to him by his 2nd contract ?

i see ryan anderson level when i look at him and i dont think garpax breaks the bank for that level of player.

because if he isn't a dirk/durant type (lights out scoring forward) he doesn't make anywhere near max money here 

i could be wrong but i dont see the same type of 1 on 1 scoring skills that a scoring forward would need to be elite in the nba.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



Da Grinch said:


> now the thread asks if mirotic is worth the wait?
> 
> what level of player must mirotic elevate to that will make it worth it to him by his 2nd contract ?
> 
> ...


You may be right, but all that really matters is Mirotic's own perception. These guys are pro athletes, half of them think they're as good as Lebron. That is why you hear about these delusional contracts they seek (and sometimes get). Mirotic probably isn't thinking about being the next Ryan Anderson like us fans do.

Also keep in mind that according to this link (http://espn.go.com/nba/salaries), there are 58 players making $10M+ this season...of these, 44 players earn $12M+ and 30 players earn $14M+. Surely Mirotic feels he can be at a minimum one of the best 40-50 players in this league and can justify $10-12M salary at some point in his career, possibly higher even if he doesn't get true max money. Doubtful a Euro team can offer that kind of dough over a guaranteed length of time. If he sees it that way, that's 2 points for coming to the NBA as soon as possible over staying in Europe.

And frankly, the risk really isn't that high if he comes over...if he signs a 3-year deal and fails miserably, he can come back to Europe and probably secure a pretty sweet deal, basically exactly what happened with Rudy Fernandez.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



yodurk said:


> You may be right, but all that really matters is Mirotic's own perception. These guys are pro athletes, half of them think they're as good as Lebron. That is why you hear about these delusional contracts they seek (and sometimes get). Mirotic probably isn't thinking about being the next Ryan Anderson like us fans do.
> 
> Also keep in mind that according to this link (http://espn.go.com/nba/salaries), there are 58 players making $10M+ this season...of these, 44 players earn $12M+ and 30 players earn $14M+. Surely Mirotic feels he can be at a minimum one of the best 40-50 players in this league and can justify $10-12M salary at some point in his career, possibly higher even if he doesn't get true max money. Doubtful a Euro team can offer that kind of dough over a guaranteed length of time. If he sees it that way, that's 2 points for coming to the NBA as soon as possible over staying in Europe.
> 
> And frankly, the risk really isn't that high if he comes over...if he signs a 3-year deal and fails miserably, he can come back to Europe and probably secure a pretty sweet deal, basically exactly what happened with Rudy Fernandez.


the truth is we dont know what he's thinking , he could be full of himself or he could be insecure or even a happy medium.

if the bulls wanted to the could offer him 10-12 mil.(a team can offer up to 25% of the cap in the 1st 6 years of service if they have the space to do it) to start which of course they wont do. but there is no harm in asking.

as far as i am concerned its only money and the bulls have plenty of it, but...one has to weigh all options , and he has a few people's opinion he can go by , sergio rodriguez and rudy fernandez are on his team and flamed out over here as well as marcus slaughter who has tried over here but was never signed , he also has agents and can speak to anyone he feels like through his connections as a rather noteworthy player in europe.

to me he seems extremely comfortable where he is and it will take extra money to uproot him not just for the buyout but for all the extra perks afforded to coveted euros.

we've already waited 3 years and given up 2 draft picks and if he is acquired will have to pay him more than the 1st pick in that draft at least initially all for a guy i dont think really warrants all of this , the bulls could have traded for the actual ryan anderson for far less trouble.

if he winds up being significantly better than i think he is i will happily be wrong, but i am usually not wrong.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Jon de la Presa: Real Madrid already knows that Nikola Mirotic is leaving the club for the NBA. Jan Vesely and Doellman main options.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



mvP to the Wee said:


> Jon de la Presa: Real Madrid already knows that Nikola Mirotic is leaving the club for the NBA. Jan Vesely and Doellman main options.


Hopefully true...not saying it would be disastrous if he didn't come over, but I'd certainly MUCH rather align Mirotic's 1st NBA season with Rose's "rehab season", b/c I think there's no way we win a title next year after Rose has barely played in 3 years no matter what we do.

Bulls are IMO thinking that next season ('14-'15) is to re-tool the team's core and let them acclimate to each other for a full year, then tweak and refine for a full-out title push in '15-'16 with Rose & Mirotic both having a full year under their belts.

It sounds light years away but the harsh reality is we have no other choice w/ our superstar shelved like this. Not to mention the hope is Miami's core will be sliding a bit by then and a title window opens up.


----------



## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



mvP to the Wee said:


> Jon de la Presa: Real Madrid already knows that Nikola Mirotic is leaving the club for the NBA. Jan Vesely and Doellman main options.


Link?


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



Dornado said:


> Link?


Stolen off of rgm from someone else's post


----------



## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



mvP to the Wee said:


> Stolen off of rgm from someone else's post


I just didn't know if there was more of a story to go with it, that's all. Hopefully he's right.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



> According to most US based sources, it’s a given that Nikola Mirotic will leave Real Madrid, something we also consider a done deal if the Spaniards win the Euroleague, and the Bulls are ready to spend for the talented forward their mid level exception in a four years contract, which translates to a more than 20 millions USD contract for him. After three years in Europe, Mirotic is no longer restricted by the rookie salary scale and with this contract he can easily cover the monster 2,5 millions euros buy out his contract with Real Madrid includes.


http://www.eurohoops.net/2014/02/dunks/42988

I'd keep Boozer around if this is indeed true.


----------



## PD (Sep 10, 2004)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

I think we are overvaluing the value of money in this case. As a basketball player (especially being one of the best), you want to be challenged. I think basketball players in the world (doesn't matter where you are) want to taste of being an NBA player. EURO Basketball has gotten better, but the real league is still the NBA. That was one of the reasons why Sabonis came to the NBA in his 30s.

Mirotic is financially stable for the rest of his life. It doesn't matter where he plays professionally. Another step in his professional career is to test his craft against the best. Long term, it is better. Look at Dirk, Yao, Parker, and other foreign players. It is better for Mirotic to come to the NBA as early as possible. If it doesn't work out, he will go back to Europe and do what he is doing now. I am sure he will be making millions too. 

Having said that, $4-5M or $10-11M is really not the make or break of his decision.

Will he be the next Dirk or bust? Hopefully Dirk.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



PD said:


> I think we are overvaluing the value of money in this case. As a basketball player (especially being one of the best), you want to be challenged. I think basketball players in the world (doesn't matter where you are) want to taste of being an NBA player. EURO Basketball has gotten better, but the real league is still the NBA. That was one of the reasons why Sabonis came to the NBA in his 30s.
> 
> Mirotic is financially stable for the rest of his life. It doesn't matter where he plays professionally. Another step in his professional career is to test his craft against the best. Long term, it is better. Look at Dirk, Yao, Parker, and other foreign players. It is better for Mirotic to come to the NBA as early as possible. If it doesn't work out, he will go back to Europe and do what he is doing now. I am sure he will be making millions too.
> 
> ...


This is quite easily the stupidest ****ing post I've read all week.

4 to 5 mil or 10 to 11 mil, big deal? Are you out of your ****ing mind?

His personal pride to play against the best is the biggest pile of horse shit you could possibly write.

You don't get to a million dollars and think "Hey, if I invest properly and don't spend too much, I can go take half as much to play in the NBA."

Real life doesn't work that way.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



PD said:


> I think we are overvaluing the value of money in this case. As a basketball player (especially being one of the best), you want to be challenged. I think basketball players in the world (doesn't matter where you are) want to taste of being an NBA player. EURO Basketball has gotten better, but the real league is still the NBA. That was one of the reasons why Sabonis came to the NBA in his 30s.
> 
> Mirotic is financially stable for the rest of his life. It doesn't matter where he plays professionally. Another step in his professional career is to test his craft against the best. Long term, it is better. Look at Dirk, Yao, Parker, and other foreign players. It is better for Mirotic to come to the NBA as early as possible. If it doesn't work out, he will go back to Europe and do what he is doing now. I am sure he will be making millions too.
> 
> ...


While I'm not going to be a total d bag like R star. But, I think this is wishful thinking. It's about the money.


----------



## PD (Sep 10, 2004)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



R-Star said:


> This is quite easily the stupidest ****ing post I've read all week.
> 
> 4 to 5 mil or 10 to 11 mil, big deal? Are you out of your ****ing mind?
> 
> ...


Real life sure doesn't work that way. However, this is the life of a professional basketball player. For a typical person, a million dollar is worth a lot without a question. These guys can make that kind of money with an appearance on TV. Am I out of my mind? No. Guys take less money all the time. Plus, this is only during the first 2-3 years of his career, which he will use to prove his worth.

Like i said, the money will be part of the decision, but not the focal point of THE decision.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



PD said:


> Real life sure doesn't work that way. However, this is the life of a professional basketball player. For a typical person, a million dollar is worth a lot without a question. These guys can make that kind of money with an appearance on TV. Am I out of my mind? No. Guys take less money all the time. Plus, this is only during the first 2-3 years of his career, which he will use to prove his worth.
> 
> Like i said, the money will be part of the decision, but not the focal point of THE decision.


Money will absolutely be the focal point of the decision.

The only people who talk about how money doesn't matter are people who don't have any. 

Lets say he's made 10 million so far. That is nowhere near the type of money where you can just decide to quit caring about money. 

And who exactly are these guys making 1 mil per appearance? Whoever you answered that question with, bear in mind that no one is paying Mirotic 1 mil for an appearance, ever. So why exactly are we even talking about it?

Please, lets attempt to deal in reality here.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Money will matter, but never did it say Mirotic was seeking 10 million, only the Bulls could potentially be willing to go that high.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



thebizkit69u said:


> While I'm not going to be a total d bag like R star. But, I think this is wishful thinking. It's about the money.



Yeah, R-Star, knock off the personal attacks. You can express your contrary opinion without the ridiculous hostility.


To your respective points, I think we just don't know. There are definitely players who would take equal or less money to go play in the NBA instead of some lesser league (just as there are players within the NBA who would take less money to play for a contender). To act like money is the only possible motivator is just simple-minded.

However, there are other players whose every decision will be based on money. There are definitely guys who would sign with a garbage team rather than a contender were the garbage team to offer a few extra bucks per season.

The fact is that we don't know what motivates Mirotic. It could be the desire to prove his greatness in the best league in the world. It could be money. The most likely scenario is probably some combination of the two. But acting like you _know_ what his motivations are is foolish.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> Yeah, R-Star, knock off the personal attacks. You can express your contrary opinion without the ridiculous hostility.
> 
> 
> To your respective points, I think we just don't know. There are definitely players who would take equal or less money to go play in the NBA instead of some lesser league (just as there are players within the NBA who would take less money to play for a contender). To act like money is the only possible motivator is just simple-minded.
> ...


Who are these players who would take less money to play in the NBA?

And please... calling my side of the argument simple minded, while you guys are sitting there saying "money won't matter. Competition and pride matters! Rainbows and butterflies!", sorry, but that's laughable.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



R-Star said:


> Who are these players who would take less money to play in the NBA?


You cannot be serious. Fringe NBA-level players who are barely end-of-the bench guys could often make more in foreign markets. Many players playing in the D-League trying to break into the NBA could certainly earn more by playing abroad. So, why doesn't everyone just leave? The fact that these players do not leave inherently means they are considering more than compensation.

And, in terms of simply taking less money in general to end up with a contender/good fit, LeBron James, Chris Bosh, Dwyane Wade, Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan, and Andre Iguodala all took less money to end up with their respective teams. 

I am not sure anyone who actually appreciates competitive athletics would honestly make your argument. You can't actually hold this opinion.



> And please... calling my side of the argument simple minded, while you guys are sitting there saying "money won't matter. Competition and pride matters! Rainbows and butterflies!", sorry, but that's laughable.



Sorry, I'll call a spade a spade. As my post acknowledged, there are plenty of players for whom money is the only motivating factor. There are also plenty of players that consider other factors, like fit, whether the team will be a contender, etc. That's a far cry from "rainbows and butterflies," but hey, it's not like your priority is generally honest dialogue.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> You cannot be serious. Fringe NBA-level players who are barely end-of-the bench guys could often make more in foreign markets. Many players playing in the D-League trying to break into the NBA could certainly earn more by playing abroad. So, why doesn't everyone just leave? The fact that these players do not leave inherently means they are considering more than compensation.
> 
> And, in terms of simply taking less money in general to end up with a contender/good fit, LeBron James, Chris Bosh, Dwyane Wade, Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan, and Andre Iguodala all took less money to end up with their respective teams.
> 
> ...


What D league players have stayed in the D league and turned down contract offers from Euro league teams?

Which of these fringe level NBA players have turned down Euro league contracts?

No?

So again, we're just saying stuff to say stuff.

Lebron, Bosh and Wade supposedly all planned out for quite a few years to play together. Their slight pay cut will have been recouped from all the lime light that came with their big 3 signing and the success that's come with it. What's funny is, guys like you will point to that like it helps Mirotic. It doesn't. Lebron getting more money from sponsors means absolutely nothing for Mirotic. Unless he turns out to be a star hes getting jack shit in endorsements. 

Howard? Hes a weak minded simpleton who bungled his way out of Orlando and LA because hes an idiot.

Tim Duncan? Hes spent his entire career with a team and _took a paycut to stay where he's played his whole career and makes his home._ Same could be said for Dirk. Taking a paycut to stay? That's a point against your argument, not for it.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



R-Star said:


> What D league players have stayed in the D league and turned down contract offers from Euro league teams?
> 
> Which of these fringe level NBA players have turned down Euro league contracts?
> 
> ...



Chaz Williams turned down a contract in Turkey to attend college for his senior year and try to make an NBA roster.

Mickael Pietrus is presently working out in Florida and turning down lucrative foreign contract offers because he's hoping to catch on with an NBA team.

Earl Barron turned down an offer to play in Israel to try to make it in the NBA, even though he was unsigned.

Pero Antic turned down more lucrative offers in Europe because he wanted to play in the NBA. 

Sorry, R-Star, but you're the only one "saying stuff just to say stuff."

All your remaining commentary regarding the star players that took less money is incoherent drivel. I don't care if you believe Dwight Howard is an "idiot." Idiots exist. If idiots take less money, then it supports my point that some players will consider other factors.

And you apparently concede that LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Dirk, and Duncan all took less money because of other, non-monetary factors. Great. We agree, then.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> Chaz Williams turned down a contract in Turkey to attend college for his senior year and try to make an NBA roster.
> 
> Mickael Pietrus is presently working out in Florida and turning down lucrative foreign contract offers because he's hoping to catch on with an NBA team.
> 
> ...


Chaz who? you named 4 players. 1 including a guy I've never heard of, the other being Earl Barron. 

There's also plenty of Euro players who stay in Europe, never coming over to play in the NBA even though there's interest.

You what, want to run your mouth but only selectively talk about facts?

And I'm sorry, but Duncan and Dirk took pay cuts to _*STAY WITH THE TEAMS THEY PLAYED THEIR CAREER WITH, AND WHERE THEY MAKE THEIR HOME*_. Why did I capitalize that? Because I already said it, and you just pretended it wasn't there. Not very smart to use something that weakens your side of the debate as a key fact.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

R-star, dealing out the real.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



R-Star said:


> Chaz who? you named 4 players. 1 including a guy I've never heard of, the other being Earl Barron.
> 
> There's also plenty of Euro players who stay in Europe, never coming over to play in the NBA even though there's interest.
> 
> ...



Ha. You have been proven incorrect. Get over it. Or, feel free to keep lying. Your choice, I suppose.

By the way, smart guy, preferring to stay with a team you played your career with or in a town where you make your home is exactly what I referred to - making a choice on a non-monetary basis.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



Jamel Irief said:


> R-star, dealing out the real.


Only if you lack basic reading comprehension skills.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> Ha. You have been proven incorrect. Get over it. Or, feel free to keep lying. Your choice, I suppose.
> 
> By the way, smart guy, preferring to stay with a team you played your career with or in a town where you make your home is exactly what I referred to - *making a choice on a non-monetary basis.[b/]*


*

Which is exactly the sort of choice Mirotic could use to stay where he's at.


Lying? Wow. You're sad.*


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



R-Star said:


> Which is exactly the sort of choice Mirotic could use to stay where he's at.
> 
> 
> Lying? Wow. You're sad.



You're lying insofar as you are indicating that I haven't provided you examples of exactly what you implied did not exist. You were wrong. Just accept it and move on. Or, perhaps you simply don't understand what "non-monetary considerations" means, in which case, the dictionary is your friend.

And sure, my entire point is Mirotic might consider some factors beyond money. And yes, those factors could lead him to stay in Europe. But now you're talking out of both sides of your mouth by indicating Mirotic could use those factors "to stay where he's at." You can't have it both ways. Either he's interested exclusively in money or there are other factors he might consider. Now you have changed positions and acknowledged that indeed there might be non-monetary considerations. So, either you've come over to my position or you simply don't have a cogent point to be made.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> You're lying insofar as you are indicating that I haven't provided you examples of exactly what you implied did not exist. You were wrong. Just accept it and move on. Or, perhaps you simply don't understand what "non-monetary considerations" means, in which case, the dictionary is your friend.
> 
> And sure, my entire point is Mirotic might consider some factors beyond money. And yes, those factors could lead him to stay in Europe. But now you're talking out of both sides of your mouth by indicating Mirotic could use those factors "to stay where he's at." You can't have it both ways. Either he's interested exclusively in money or there are other factors he might consider. Now you have changed positions and acknowledged that indeed there might be non-monetary considerations. So, either you've come over to my position or you simply don't have a cogent point to be made.


You're kidding right?

So the idea that he could stay where hes played his career and made his home so far _and_ make more money somehow refutes my point?

It strengthens it. My argument was against the idea that he's going to come to the NBA out of some whimsical sense of pride. Everything in the above paragraph is stark contrast to that statement. 

So again, keep calling people liars, keep trying to use words like cogent and hope it fools people into thinking you yourself have a "cogent" argument, but its laughable.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



R-Star said:


> You're kidding right?
> 
> So the idea that he could stay where hes played his career and made his home so far _and_ make more money somehow refutes my point?
> 
> ...



You do understand you are contradicting yourself, yes?


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> You do understand you are contradicting yourself, yes?


Not really, no. 

Read my posts again.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



R-Star said:


> Not really, no.
> 
> Read my posts again.



Thanks, but they were interminable the first time. Feel free to review them yourself though, as you seem to lack an understanding of contradiction.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Not sure if anyone saw this, but someone at RealGM mentioned a Mike McGraw (Daily Herald) quote that said this:



> "[Nikola] Mirotic is on his way over. He knows it. Real Madrid knows it. [Chicago] Bulls know it. It's a done deal."


McGraw has always been a reliable journalist and in fact he tends to be more on the boring/conservative side with his reporting, so I tend to put alot of stock in this comment. It likely means he knows something from a legit Bulls source in the front office. 

Sorry I didn't see a link posted, I am guessing this might've been McGraw's twitter account (couldn't find on the Daily Herald website).

Anyway, it lines up with everything we've read lately. Mirotic has achieved almost everything there is to achieve in Europe. He is a competitor. His camp says he's excited about playing for the Bulls. He is going to get a decent pay day here and has a chance to make more in the long term. So all else being equal, it completely makes sense that he would come over this summer, and we will amnesty or (preferably) trade Boozer to make room for him.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



yodurk said:


> Not sure if anyone saw this, but someone at RealGM mentioned a Mike McGraw (Daily Herald) quote that said this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, here's the thing. There was that Sager report that Boozer would not be traded or amnestied unless it brought in a star player. I only buy that for this season. For next season, if the Bulls need cap space (rather than just the MLE) to sign him, then I truly believe Boozer is going to be amnestied if he can't be traded. I do not believe the Bulls will delay bringing Mirotic over, unless it's because they use all their cap room on a Carmelo type of player.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> Yeah, here's the thing. There was that Sager report that Boozer would not be traded or amnestied unless it brought in a star player. I only buy that for this season. For next season, if the Bulls need cap space (rather than just the MLE) to sign him, then I truly believe Boozer is going to be amnestied if he can't be traded. I do not believe the Bulls will delay bringing Mirotic over, unless it's because they use all their cap room on a Carmelo type of player.


The Sager report likely has some truth to it like you say, but IMO there is a good chance it is only half true. There is alot of room for interpretation for the word "star" in this context. Could just simply mean "upgrade" as in better than Boozer, which Mirotic quite possibly is already, or "star in Europe", who knows. It's not like Sager said "superstar" or anything like that. I always hear the media casually apply the word "star" to players who die-hard fans don't really think are true stars. "Bulls star Luol Deng" or "Bulls star Joakim Noah", etc, etc. At this point I would honestly be shocked if the Bulls walked into training camp with Mirotic, Booz, and Taj all on the roster, and I'm going on record now that Mirotic is more likely than not coming over next season. Unless we get a stellar trade offer for Taj Gibson, there is literally zero reason to keep Boozer over Taj next year.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



yodurk said:


> The Sager report likely has some truth to it like you say, but IMO there is a good chance it is only half true. There is alot of room for interpretation for the word "star" in this context. Could just simply mean "upgrade" as in better than Boozer, which Mirotic quite possibly is already, or "star in Europe", who knows. It's not like Sager said "superstar" or anything like that. I always hear the media casually apply the word "star" to players who die-hard fans don't really think are true stars. "Bulls star Luol Deng" or "Bulls star Joakim Noah", etc, etc. At this point I would honestly be shocked if the Bulls walked into training camp with Mirotic, Booz, and Taj all on the roster, and I'm going on record now that Mirotic is more likely than not coming over next season. Unless we get a stellar trade offer for Taj Gibson, there is literally zero reason to keep Boozer over Taj next year.


Yeah, I can't see them dumping Taj unless a star player comes back. He just makes so much sense next season if Boozer is amnestied. Assuming Mirotic needs some time to develop, Taj can grab the starting spot at the 4 and some backup minutes at the 5. Boozer doesn't provide you with the same flexibility and having Boozer + Mirotic would leave Thibs without an option to go for defense at the 4 spot down the stretch.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> Yeah, here's the thing. There was that Sager report that Boozer would not be traded or amnestied unless it brought in a star player. I only buy that for this season. For next season, if the Bulls need cap space (rather than just the MLE) to sign him, then I truly believe Boozer is going to be amnestied if he can't be traded. I do not believe the Bulls will delay bringing Mirotic over, unless it's because they use all their cap room on a Carmelo type of player.


Next season Boozer will have expired.

Anyways, if you get Mirotic on the MLE, I would keep Boozer, unless we do get a star player. It really depends when a team like the Wolves wants to trade Love. If it's at the deadline, Boozer becomes an important expiring contract. I rather roll the dice on that than be satisfied with a Lance Stephenson free agent signing and losing the option to go with a big time player.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



mvP to the Wee said:


> Next season Boozer will have expired.
> 
> Anyways, if you get Mirotic on the MLE, I would keep Boozer, unless we do get a star player. It really depends when a team like the Wolves wants to trade Love. If it's at the deadline, Boozer becomes an important expiring contract. I rather roll the dice on that than be satisfied with a Lance Stephenson free agent signing and losing the option to go with a big time player.



I think you're misreading what I meant. Next season Boozer will be expir_ing_, not expired.

In any event, I can't see keeping Boozer on the books for trade value next season rather than signing free agents this offseason, just out of the hope that a star may become disgruntled and get moved.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> I think you're misreading what I meant. Next season Boozer will be expir_ing_, not expired.
> 
> In any event, I can't see keeping Boozer on the books for trade value next season rather than signing free agents this offseason, just out of the hope that a star may become disgruntled and get moved.


I think it's a matter of when, not if Love gets dealt IMO. I think our offer will be hard to top.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> You do understand you are contradicting yourself, yes?


Feel free to elaborate on the contradiction please.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



R-Star said:


> Feel free to elaborate on the contradiction please.



*Your first line of thinking - it's all about the money, yo:*



> Money will absolutely be the focal point of the decision.
> 
> The only people who talk about how money doesn't matter are people who don't have any.





> Who are these players who would take less money to play in the NBA?
> 
> And please... calling my side of the argument simple minded, while you guys are sitting there saying "money won't matter. Competition and pride matters! Rainbows and butterflies!", sorry, but that's laughable.


As I read them, your point was "money is the only thing that matters" when a basketball player is considering his options on where to play.

I then pointed out that there were certain classes of players in the NBA who had made the decision to compete for a job on an NBA roster rather than accept what might be a more lucrative position with a team abroad. I pointed out there were other, existing NBA players who had taken less money to either stay with their current team or join a contender rather than max out on their earnings. 

You told me I was full of it (at least with respect to the decision to play abroad vs. NBA), and challenged me to name any players that had made that decision:



> What D league players have stayed in the D league and turned down contract offers from Euro league teams?
> 
> Which of these fringe level NBA players have turned down Euro league contracts?
> 
> ...


Of course, I then identified several such players, completely nullifying the unsupported argument you were making (with some hostility, no less, accusing me of "just saying stuff to say stuff," apparently believing I was talking out of my ass by making the suggestion rather than relying on concrete information).

I was right. You were wrong.

After I proved you to be incorrect, you changed your argument. 

*Your second line of thinking - ok, maybe it's not all about the money, yo:*



> Lebron, Bosh and Wade supposedly all planned out for quite a few years to play together. Their slight pay cut will have been recouped from all the lime light that came with their big 3 signing and the success that's come with it. What's funny is, guys like you will point to that like it helps Mirotic. It doesn't. Lebron getting more money from sponsors means absolutely nothing for Mirotic. Unless he turns out to be a star hes getting jack shit in endorsements.
> 
> Howard? Hes a weak minded simpleton who bungled his way out of Orlando and LA because hes an idiot.
> 
> Tim Duncan? Hes spent his entire career with a team and took a paycut to stay where he's played his whole career and makes his home. Same could be said for Dirk.





> So the idea that he could stay where hes played his career and made his home so far and make more money somehow refutes my point?


Can you not actually see how your position has changed?

Your first position was that money is the only consideration. Your second point is that non-monetary considerations matter (but the ones you believe matter indicate Mirotic will stay in Europe).

Both cannot be true. Either it's all about the money, always and everywhere, for every player, or it's not always (exclusively) about the money. 

If you want to argue the relevant non-monetary considerations would favor Mirotic staying in Europe, sure, we can have that discussion. But our argument was about whether non-monetary considerations _even exist at all_. First you said they did not. Then you said they did.

Feel free to pick a position and stick to it. Or not, but then please at least acknowledge the pivot.


----------



## Milos.Djuric (Oct 22, 2013)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



R-Star said:


> Who are these players who would take less money to play in the NBA?


There are a lot of players that would rather take less money to play in the NBA than play in Europe/Asia. BUT, they would still take as much money as they can get. You have people whose lifelong dream is to play in the NBA, Nemanja Nedovic, Jan Vesely, Adam Morrison 

jnrjr79 was saying there are D-League players that are staying in D-League for less money than they could make overseas because they are hoping to break back into the NBA. A good example of this is Andrew Goudelock. He played about 2 years in the D-League, in one moment he had to borrow money from his girlfriend, even though he was the D-League MVP. And only when Kobe got hurt he finally got back to play 3 playoff games. And now he is a starter and the best players of Unics Kazan, so he could have done this years ago but he stayed in the D-League, hoping that he would get his chance. So there are players like this. 
But the big part of his (their) motivation to play D-League is the money, in Europe you have to be one of the best of the best to get a salary above 2mil.

R-Star all the time it seems like you are trying to say that other reasons beside money are laughable, QUOTE: "while you guys are sitting there saying "money won't matter. Competition and pride matters! Rainbows and butterflies!", sorry, but that's laughable.".
While jnrjr79 is trying to say there is more to this decision then the money and then you say QUOTE: "And I'm sorry, but Duncan and Dirk took pay cuts to *STAY WITH THE TEAMS THEY PLAYED THEIR CAREER WITH, AND WHERE THEY MAKE THEIR HOME*." so you just said that there is something other than money that motives players to sign, which proves his point and contradicts the original quote.

I agree with R-Star that money will be the focal point of this transfer. Bulls seem eager to get Nikola this year, as Nikola is enjoying his time in Madrid and hasn't showed any excitement to come to NBA, he should make Bulls come to his terms. He should go for at least 10 mil.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



Milos.Djuric said:


> There are a lot of players that would rather take less money to play in the NBA than play in Europe/Asia. BUT, they would still take as much money as they can get. You have people whose lifelong dream is to play in the NBA, Nemanja Nedovic, Jan Vesely, Adam Morrison
> 
> jnrjr79 was saying there are D-League players that are staying in D-League for less money than they could make overseas because they are hoping to break back into the NBA. A good example of this is Andrew Goudelock. He played about 2 years in the D-League, in one moment he had to borrow money from his girlfriend, even though he was the D-League MVP. And only when Kobe got hurt he finally got back to play 3 playoff games. And now he is a starter and the best players of Unics Kazan, so he could have done this years ago but he stayed in the D-League, hoping that he would get his chance. So there are players like this.
> But the big part of his (their) motivation to play D-League is the money, in Europe you have to be one of the best of the best to get a salary above 2mil.
> ...



Thanks. This gets to the heart of the issue better than I could probably state it.

And yes, I agree it's totally possible Mirotic will make his decision based only on money. The Bulls obviously think that he may cost more than the MLE and are making themselves cap-flexible to sign him, by all appearances. 

The only thing I would point out is that even if money is the only consideration, the first contract isn't the only issue. If Mirotic proves to be a star-level player, he would make vastly more money on his 2nd and 3rd contracts than he could make abroad. There is an argument to be made to come over ASAP so that he can complete his first deal and put himself in position for more lucrative future contracts.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> *Your first line of thinking - it's all about the money, yo:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For a guy who tries so hard to sound smart, you should probably go get a dictionary and read up what the word focal point means. 

"Its all about the money, yo"? Is this your attempt to try to pigeon hole me as some sort of idiot? Listen, if you can't make a coherent argument, that's your issue, not mine.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> Thanks. This gets to the heart of the issue better than I could probably state it.
> 
> And yes, I agree it's totally possible Mirotic will make his decision based only on money. The Bulls obviously think that he may cost more than the MLE and are making themselves cap-flexible to sign him, by all appearances.
> 
> The only thing I would point out is that even if money is the only consideration, the first contract isn't the only issue. If Mirotic proves to be a star-level player, he would make vastly more money on his 2nd and 3rd contracts than he could make abroad. There is an argument to be made to come over ASAP so that he can complete his first deal and put himself in position for more lucrative future contracts.


:laugh:

1) He wants money now. 
2) No one, and I mean no one, plans to wait 3-5 years to make a pay day in the future when you rely solely on your athleticism and health to make a paycheck. He could get injured. He could turn out to have a game that doesn't transition well at all in the NBA and be a fringe level talent. 

You live in a day dream. Its pathetic.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



R-Star said:


> :laugh:
> 
> 1) He wants money now.
> 2) No one, and I mean no one, plans to wait 3-5 years to make a pay day in the future when you rely solely on your athleticism and health to make a paycheck. He could get injured. He could turn out to have a game that doesn't transition well at all in the NBA and be a fringe level talent.
> ...


I note that you are no longer trying to contend that you aren't contradicting yourself. So, apparently you've conceded that point.

Given that you've now resorted to unsupported assertions and make-believe (in that you purport to know what Mirotic is thinking), I think we can conclude our discussion now. Thanks.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



R-Star said:


> For a guy who tries so hard to sound smart, you should probably go get a dictionary and read up what the word focal point means.


"Focal point" is not a word, my friend.


----------



## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

No insults please, @R-Star


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> "Focal point" is not a word, my friend.


No, honestly, tell me what focal point means to you. Because that is the exact wording I used, and you've now changed that to "It's all about the benjamins, yo", in an extremely weak attempt to characterize me as some slang talking moron. 


You're backpeddaling extremely hard at this point, refusing to even engage in the debate you yourself started.

Did I contradict myself when I said he could very well want to stay with his own team and not come to the NBA? No. I'm coming up with multiple reasons why he may not come over. The focal point of which being that he wouldn't come over for less money. Someone with a general grasp of the english language would understand that is in no means contradictory. 


You've now devolved into replies of "Focal point isn't a word. ITS TWO WORDS! HA!" This is just sad.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



Dornado said:


> No insults please, @R-Star


No worries, I don't think I'll need any with this guy.


----------



## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

Well, I edited one out of a post already... :rules:


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



Dornado said:


> Well, I edited one out of a post already... :rules:


That guy can't even spell the word rules right. I'm not taking any advice from him. And why's he waving around a book with a question mark anyways? This guy just doesn't seem to have it together if you ask me.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



R-Star said:


> No, honestly, tell me what focal point means to you. Because that is the exact wording I used, and you've now changed that to "It's all about the benjamins, yo", in an extremely weak attempt to characterize me as some slang talking moron.
> 
> 
> You're backpeddaling extremely hard at this point, refusing to even engage in the debate you yourself started.
> ...



This is going to be my last post because I'm sure nobody is particularly enjoying our back-and-forth at this point (us included, I imagine).

Re: the "slang" talking, I was just having fun and not trying to imply that it was consistent with your speech pattern (though I'm not sure why you would be sensitive about it if it was, but that's a topic for another day).

Your contradiction was in first arguing that money was the only relevant consideration, then later switching gears and arguing that there are in fact multiple factors that could be considered. This has been pointed out and confirmed in the thread, so I'm not sure there's any need to get flustered about it.

As I have made perfectly clear, if you want to argue that the non-monetary considerations favor Mirotic staying in Europe, you can by all means make that case. It contradicts the latest reporting on the situation, but there are certainly valid points to be made in that regard. My only report was that such considerations do in fact exist and that while money is generally the largest factor considered, NBA players have routinely also considered other factors when deciding where to play basketball.

It is also insanely comical, as a guy who argued (at least at one point) that money was the dispositive consideration, that you would make the argument that there's no possibility Mirotic will look at his earning potential over the course of a career rather than only at the first contract. I would agree it's entirely possible he'll make the decision on the first contract alone, but to pretend to have some sort of ability to predict his decision-making process with 100% certainty is beyond the pale. Players in many sports have taken less valuable, shorter-term "prove it" types of contracts that allow them to get a bigger deal if they perform well in the near term. I have no particular reason to believe that Mirotic will do that _because I am willing to admit I am not privy to his thinking_ (which is an admission you seem unwilling to make), but to act as though it is outside the realm of possibility is simply not accurate or honest.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*



jnrjr79 said:


> This is going to be my last post because I'm sure nobody is particularly enjoying our back-and-forth at this point (us included, I imagine).
> 
> Re: the "slang" talking, I was just having fun and not trying to imply that it was consistent with your speech pattern (though I'm not sure why you would be sensitive about it if it was, but that's a topic for another day).
> 
> ...


Really? Where?

Feel free to quote where I said money was the only deciding factor for Mirotic. 


I'm waiting.....

No? You can't find it? So you're again just trying to state things that never actually happened in an attempt to save face?


In the future, you should know the meaning of the words being used before attempting to argue with someone. I'd suggest you begin with focal point.


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Bulls’ Mirotic Is Worth The Wait*

From Ken Berger



> Further, if the Bulls are under the cap, they'd only have their $2.7 million room exception to bring 2011 pick Nikola Mirotic over from Spain. *League sources say Mirotic would be looking for a deal in the $3 million-$4 million range.* (He's no longer governed by the rookie scale, and the Bulls have planned for needing the bulk of their non-taxpayer mid-level exception of $5.3 million on him, sources say.)


Would be huge if that is the case. We can afford both Melo and Mirotic on cap space in that instance.


----------

