# Hate on..



## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

I'm usually a pretty level headed guy .

But all the talk about Stoudemire on the main board has gotten me a bit peeved lately.. normally I'd just ignore it, but I wanted to say some stuff.. if you're a Phoenix fan, maybe you'll agree with me.. if you're not a Phoenix fan, too bad for you I guess.. :grinning: 

I want to comment first on Amare's stretch over the last 17 games where he's scored 20+ in all but one. The stats over that stretch are: 25.5ppg, 9.7rpg, 1.5apg, 2.11bpg, 3.2TO's, .543fg%, .737ft%. First and foremost, I don't care what _anyone_ says, those stats speak for themselves. Those are All NBA first team numbers, those are MVP-type numbers. I want to see his rebounding get more consistent, and he definitely needs to cut down on the careless TO's, but other than that - wow. Most importantly, the way he is scoring is what everyone is failing to notice. He's developing some pretty nice post moves and he's getting to the line 10 times a game. 

Here's my problem with what people are saying - "Amare only scores on dunks and on the break." Amare is good on the break, and he gets his fair share of dunks, but that is so untrue these days that the argument is getting very tired and I'm sick of hearing it. Amare is averaging 7.5ppg from the free throw line over this stretch, and I don't think he scores more than two baskets a game on the fast break because Leo and Shawn are so unbelievably fast that it's tough for anyone else to finish on a fast break (sometimes JJ gets it when he trails). The second part is - shouldn't you be scared ****less if a guy who is visibly and notedly dedicated to improvement is scoring 26ppg without any astonishing post play? His footwork seems to be improving pretty rapidly, and it isn't there yet, but it's coming. He needs to add a baby jump hook, needs to stop being so dedicated to his right hand, and needs to get some confidence in his 10-12 foot jumper. None of things are difficult, but he needs to dedicate himself to improved post play even more than he has been.

The second one is - "Yeah, those are o.k. stats, but what is Phoenix's record?" Bugger that. These are the same folks who parouse the boards and right after they close the thread about Amare, go make their top 10 player list and stuff T-Mac at #3. There are a lot of things that are wrong with Phoenix. We are young, and half the time seem like we could give a ****, one of our point guards has all the talent in the world but is more erratic than anyone in the league, and the other one loves the sound of his own dribbling to the tune of 21 seconds per possession. Our centers disappear - has anyone seen Jake Voskuhl in the last 20 games? - our coach seems to neglect the important of DEFENSE and rotation, even though we shouldn't have problems with these things on the perimeter because we have quick, agile G/F's who are individually fine defenders. We have a shooting guard with all the talent in the world but seems to disappear for three quarters at a time. We have a small forward, who despite being one of the top 2 slashers in the NBA seems dedicated to his ineffective mid-range shot when he has a beautiful floater and is a fantastic finisher.. Of all those things, one of the few positives EVERY GAME (well except the Seattle abomination) has been Amare. Do people think you can go out and put up 26ppg on 55% shooting being your teams only low post threat, just because you put your mind to it? Amare should be commended for his individual accomplishments, instead we get guys that say his stats mean nothing because Phoenix, as a team, isn't playing well.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - in sports, hate is a product of fear. It's that way with the Yankees, and it's that way with the Lakers. So hate on I guess. Just don't say "I like Amare, but.." and then procede with your rant about how it looked like Steve Francis was going to tear Amare up, or how Amare has a low IQ, or how Amare can't do anything but dunk.. pretty easy to see through the mask..


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Why don't you post that on the General board?

You have been pretty harsh on some stuff. Amare has a baby hook and he is very succesful at making it.
Maybe the criticism should be that he should use it more often.

And I haven't really seen him favor going right that much anymore. Seems not to matter anyway because they can't stop him going right anyway.


One of my favorites was when "The Franchise" came here trying to bash Amare and talking about this and that and in the same thread a few replies later he is saying that he hasn't seen Amare play since the Rockets game in November or so.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> Why don't you post that on the General board?
> 
> You have been pretty harsh on some stuff. Amare has a baby hook and he is very succesful at making it.
> ...


His baby hook is completely underutilized. Too many times he spins into traffic (though I don't want him to stop doing that by any means, his spin move is uber quick and very effective, he just needs to use it at better discretion), or forces the baseline. I am being harsh, but you have to admit he needs to work on some things. Even YOU have to get frustrated when he forces the issue too much. I was frustrated with him for not being his normal self against Houston, and making me post so much to try to get everyone off his back.. heh, jp.

Don't be satisfied with him for what he is, as awesome as that may be. You know he can be even better.. a lot better.

One thing I forgot though, is the lack of team movement when Amare gets the ball. He is a _very_ good passer, and he wants to be unselfish - but the team watches him when he gets the ball. Sometimes Marion will make a nice cut to the basket, but for the most part everyone just stands around.. Amare should be a Tim Duncan-like 3apg, but he isn't and I don't think it's his fault.

As far as not posting on the general board, I've said everything I care to there, and most of what I said got lost in the jargun anyways.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> One of my favorites was when "The Franchise" came here trying to bash Amare and talking about this and that and in the same thread a few replies later he is saying that he hasn't seen Amare play since the Rockets game in November or so.


I respect Amare's game alot more than you respect Yao's. Look at your signature! Somehow you can't leave those Yao vs. Shaq threads alone, either. 

That Rockets game was Feb. 2, the same month I posted that comment. I don't judge Amare from a single game, either, I have followed him as closely as I did Yao last year. 

Any Amare "bashing" at all from me pales in comparision to your plethora of anti-Yao comments. I am a fan and have a certain bias with most things related to the Rockets. But I accept my players' weaknesses.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> 
> 
> I respect Amare's game alot more than you respect Yao's. Look at your signature! Somehow you can't leave those Yao vs. Shaq threads alone, either.
> ...


Amare didn't even play Feb2 shows how much you respect him and how much you know what you were talking about.
http://www.nba.com/games/20040202/HOUPHO/boxscore.html

And please look at your own signature first. Don't point fingers at things you started.
At least mine is funny.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> Amare didn't even play Feb2 shows how much you respect him and how much you know what you were talking about.
> http://www.nba.com/games/20040202/HOUPHO/boxscore.html


Does it matter? Everyone saw Amare's wonderful game against the Sonics (27th Feb, national TV), and 2 of his stronger games (Jan. 13, Denver; Feb. 7 Utah) on NBA League Pass. I know you like to research, so go look up my list of the top 5 PF's in the game. You on the otherhand can't stand any praise Yao gets.



> And please look at your own signature first. Don't point fingers at things you started.
> At least mine is funny.


Notice I said game, not attitude. I respect Amare for his ability and skills. Karl Malone was a great player but I never liked him. Can you say that about Yao? I don't go into other team forums telling them how "stupid" their posters are for predicting a Phoenix win.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> 
> 
> Does it matter? Everyone saw Amare's wonderful game against the Sonics (27th Feb, national TV), and 2 of his stronger games (Jan. 13, Denver; Feb. 7 Utah) on NBA League Pass. I know you like to research, so go look up my list of the top 5 PF's in the game. You on the otherhand can't stand any praise Yao gets.





> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> I haven't seen him play since the Houston game, but I don't see the need to reply to this.


http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80559&highlight=The+Franchise

Why would we respect your opinion on Amare now anymore?

You discredited yourself already.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=1015346#post1015346 

---

Amare is a stronger offensive threat than Garnett and Duncan?


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

And here are some of the comments you dared to make based on one game you saw which you admitted in the SAME thread.




> No, Amare is a poor version of KMart
> ---
> Can you see Amare Stoudemire leading a team to the NBA Finals? Maybe with a Kobe Bryant, but not alone with a bunch of role players.
> ---
> Even if Amare puts up big numbers he hasn't shown the ability to take over games, or play big down the stretch


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=1015346#post1015346
> 
> ---
> ...


Scoring wise!
26ppg in the last 17 games says yes.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> I don't understand why so many people are screaming trade Francis right now.
> I am not a fan of his but...
> 
> ...


http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=1024967#post1024967



> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> I doubt any team will offer something decent for Francis. Only similiar contracts that they would like to get rid off as well.
> 
> Iverson seems like the best possibility but I don't even think Philly would do that even if they want to get rid off Iverson.


You seem to go with the flow... anything to take a stab at Yao.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

As fun as this has been, we have hijacked Sovereignz's thread. My apologies.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

I stand by those comments.

1. I don't think the Rockets should trade Francis and like I said I am no fan of his.
He still plays an important role on the Rockets.

2. I think no team would want to give up anything good for Francis and most importantly his attitude and contract.

Sonics are about to sweep you and Vitaly Potapenko held Yao to 2-9 shooting playing one on one with Yao the entire night.

It is not an opportunity to take a stab at Yao it is the truth. Potapenko absolutely shut Yao down and pushed him around at will all night.


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## #1SUNFAN (Jul 17, 2002)

I'm tired of every thread with Amare's name in it. People are still saying all he can do is dunk, people are saying Francis was right to hit him in the throat(this isn't WWF/UFC). It's just so annoying, people are still saying he'd be lucky to average 20ppg for a season in his prime. 

He probably gets the least respect out of any player averaging 19.7ppg and 8.8 rpg. The only fan's(besides suns fans) i've seen give Amare props are portland fans.

Also I love when they bring up the fact that Amare graduated a year late like he is dumb or something. He was 19/20 his first year in the league, same age Granett was.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> As fun as this has been, we have hijacked Sovereignz's thread. My apologies.


Hey no worries, it's all on topic. At least you call them as you see them and keep a realistic view of Stoudemire.. most people are on the far ends of the spectrum..

FWIW, I'll go on record saying that if I had to choose between one or the other to build a franchise around with a goal of winning championships, I'd take Yao before anyone - but I'd take Amare right behind him. Yao has the size and skill to completely dominate, and while Amare can be a dominant player I don't think he can ever be the defensive force/intimidator that Yao is. I believe he'll always be a higher scorer, but it's kind of a Karl Malone (back in his 27-31ppg days) to Hakeem Olajuwon comparison.. that's what I think anyways. Fortunately, we have JJ, Marion, an abundance of young prospects, a top five pick, and cap space where Houston has Steve Francis, and three power forwards with huge contracts..


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## azirishmusic (Feb 25, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> 
> Hey no worries, it's all on topic. At least you call them as you see them and keep a realistic view of Stoudemire.. most people are on the far ends of the spectrum..
> 
> FWIW, I'll go on record saying that if I had to choose between one or the other to build a franchise around with a goal of winning championships, I'd take Yao before anyone - but I'd take Amare right behind him. Yao has the size and skill to completely dominate, and while Amare can be a dominant player I don't think he can ever be the defensive force/intimidator that Yao is. I believe he'll always be a higher scorer, but it's kind of a Karl Malone (back in his 27-31ppg days) to Hakeem Olajuwon comparison.. that's what I think anyways. Fortunately, we have JJ, Marion, an abundance of young prospects, a top five pick, and cap space where Houston has Steve Francis, and three power forwards with huge contracts..


Amare has been in the league a year and a half (considering his time off for injury) and is putting up numbers comparable to KG and Duncan. Can you imagine what he will be like once he knows what he's doing?

Malone was with the Jazz for several years before his team got the finals. Duncan went early, but only by joining a very strong team with a superstar center. KG has never been out of the first round. So why gripe about the fact that Amare has not led his team to the finals yet?

BTW, while I think Yao is a great player, I'm not convinced the Rockets are a great team. The Suns caused the Rockets a lot of trouble with their trap and it seems as if Francis is the only guy who can handle the ball. The Suns had pretty good success in fronting Yao and the Rockets seemed unable or unwilling to throw the ball high to get it over the man fronting him.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>azirishmusic</b>!
> 
> 
> Amare has been in the league a year and a half (considering his time off for injury) and is putting up numbers comparable to KG and Duncan. Can you imagine what he will be like once he knows what he's doing?
> ...


That first paragraph was exactly what I was saying in my original post. I didn't gripe that Amare hasn't led a team to the finals, that would be a ridiculous complaint at his age and considering the experience of the players around him. I simply stated that if you were starting a team from square 1, most would take Yao with a goal of winning a championship.

I also eluded to the third paragraph.. I might rather have Yao but I'd rather be the Suns considering the other circumstances. Not by himself, but with the right supporting cast I believe Amare could without a doubt be the best player on a championship team.

Just think, if MJ had never been born, Malone, Barkley, and Kemp would all probably have rings. And as we've seen with Duncan, a dominant power forward as just about as good as a dominant center if he's surrounded by the right guys(though I think Yao can be an exception to that because he's so damn big, not to mention skilled).


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

I think it's pretty obvious why Amare is hated on so much at this site. When you got someone going to extremes to defend him people get sour and start to turn on the player. For instance I hate Eddy Curry only because of all the Bulls fans calling him a future all-star, saying he's better than Yao, the next Shaq, etc.

This poster also defended Marbury and showed the same bias, up until he was traded of course. Then he started being critical of him.

I mean here you start a thread DEFENDING AND PRAISING Amare and get this reply from that poster-



> You have been pretty harsh on some stuff. Amare has a baby hook and he is very succesful at making it.
> Maybe the criticism should be that he should use it more often.
> 
> And I haven't really seen him favor going right that much anymore. Seems not to matter anyway because they can't stop him going right anyway.


Just say Amare is God or else you are being too harsh on the guy.

Let me say that this poster is a good poster and has a right to his defend all things Phoenix, but when you get this zealous about it others look even deeper to expose their players flaws.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

Amare is better than Garnett if you compare them when they are 20. And look at how much people think KG is the epitome of a basketball player (which I disagree strongly).

Anyways, Amare is still a baby in this league, still learning the smarts, still experimenting, still relying on physical attributes rather than using them as "tools" for dominating.


I agree however that BigAmare is crazy. He is crazy in love with Amare... its scary. I mean, Sovereignz wrote all those nice stuff which I agree 250% with. The very next post you see a complaint.

I mean, chill BigAmare, you sound like you're more interested with Amare than the whole suns org. 

But back on topic, Amare is producing and producing well. How good can this guy be? No one knows... but he is playing as good as a prime Kemp and a prime McDyess.... and the guy is 20-21 years old.

Suns aint winning because we are simply a bad team with no motivation, no mutual goals.... no chemistry and confused role players.

I see 5-10 other superstars on losing records... and they have atleast 5+ years NBA experience. How come no one's on their back?


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Uh yeah I still think Marbury is at worst the 2nd best PG in the league and I have been no more critical of him before or after he was traded.

I am curious how you want to prove me wrong.

It is not that other posters expose Amare they make up stuff and argue without facts.


Examples?

- Amare can only dunk
- Amare is stupid
- Amare gets blocked more than anyone else
- Amare is a thug
- Amare will average 16ppg in his prime
- Amare is injury prone
- Amare won't improve because he was already mature
- Amare is putting up stats on a losing team so he shouldn't get props. But Yao was the ROY last season? TMac is a top5 player?
- Amare wasn't ROY last season
- Carlos Boozer is better than Amare
- Carmelo is better than Amare
- Lebron is clearly better than Amare
- Emeka Okafor right now is better than Amare
- Emeka Okafor is a better offensive player than Amare
- Amare is just another Stromile Swift
- Yao always gets double teamed, Amare gets only garbage points and has no offense and now in the last game it was totally reversed. Yao got only garbage points.


The list is almost endless.

The stupidity on the general board is unlimited. If I wouldn't stand up in threads for our guys it would be a bashfest.

Look up how many thread I actually created about the Suns on the general board. 99% of my posts concerning Amare are reaction of Amare bashing not own Amare praising. Get a clue.

And right now Amare is more interessting than the entire Suns organization. It's sad but the games Amare missed were almost impossible to watch without the JJ highlights. 
This Suns team without Amare is the worst I have seen the Suns in the last 15 years.


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## #1SUNFAN (Jul 17, 2002)

People are sheep, one person say all Amare can do is dunk and the next 15 people all agree mindlessly without watching any games.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> 
> Look up how many thread I actually created about the Suns on the general board. 99% of my posts concerning Amare are reaction of Amare bashing not own Amare praising. Get a clue.


This might be true, but you feel the need when anyone says anything critical, and deem it bashing.

The thread starter praised Amare in his intire post, but you felt the need to disagree with a couple points. Just because they weren't positive.

The reason I brought up Marbury is because I didn't see you admit that he dribbled the ball to long and was strictly an isolation point guard until AFTER he was traded. And last year you were claiming he was the top point guard in the league, not top two.

How about this, you prove me wrong and say something critical about Amare. Just anything. You can even say his dog is ugly for all I care.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Amare seems to have a new go-to move.

Spinmove to Facial

The last 10 games or so he vicimized quite a few with that move.

Vlade Divac, 2 Bucks last night and he had one more I think on Ostertag?

The other, face up at the freethrow line, one quick dribble to the basket and dunk.


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