# BEAST'd



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Knick starting frontline (JYD, Kurt, Freeway)
18 points, 7-23 FG, 4-5 FT, 16 rebounds, 8 fouls, 2 blocks

Bulls starting frontline (Deng, Davis, Curry)
35 points, 15-26 FG, 3-3 FT, 19 rebounds, 6 fouls, 2 blocks

Knick bench frontline (Ariza, Sweetney, Baker)
29 points, 11-19 FG, 7-10 FT, 16 rebounds, 8 fouls, 1 block

Bulls bench frontline (Chandler, Nocioni, Harrington
14 points, 6-11 FG, 2-4 FT, 12 rebounds, 8 fouls, 6 blocks


The Knicks had 18 points in the paint. The Bulls had twice that, 36.

Chandler/Curry had 5 fouls in 63 minutes. Freeway/Sweetney had 10 fouls in 40 minutes.

Sweetney fouls out in 19 minutes, while Curry hits winning shot. Chandler swats Freeway to end the game. 

The Knicks are now 1-6 since Marbury claimed to be the best PG in the league. The Bulls are 6-1 since he made the claim, including a road win against the New Orleans Hornets (w/Baron Davis). That must have taken a lot of perserverence from them, looking at how good the Hornets played at MSG.

Can we trade Marbury for Hinrich?


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

sweetney fouls cause he doesnt get big minutes and isnt afraid to hit a guy to prevent the easy two cause hes not gonna play big minutes. Curry never fouls cause he plays 0 defense. you forgot to mention sweetney got all his points abusing the 7ft curry.

not once do you mention lenny being a moron, or us missing Tim Thomas and Jamal Crawford. how many retarded lineups will lenny use? why wasnt houston in for the last shot? at least as a decoy. And run a play for Nazr on the 7'1 shot blocker chandler? bad idea, nazr sucks.

Marburys poor decision making when he took that three, hes taken too many of those bad treys to lose games for us.

i like how you talk about the frontline the whole time, then somehow trading marbury for hinrich will solve all of this. since marbury announced he was the best PG, we lost Tim Thomas and Mike Sweetney. id like to see Kirk win a few games with this defenseless team with an inconsistent offense. at least the bulls play D.


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## townknave (Jun 28, 2003)

So Rashidi, you're saying we have the worst pair of starting forwards in the league and an overall terrible frontline. This just in, huh?


The more I see us suck like this the more I want us to play our kids. It's not like we'd have been hurting ourselves in today's game by doing so, Sweetney's foul trouble notwithstanding. I think we can all vouch I've been campaigning for Sweetney to start for awhile.

Were it not for Sweetney and Ariza, this game could have been one of those embarrassment games on the level of Boston, Cleveland, and Dallas. It's obvious TT sucks and JYD is hurting. Why not start Ariza at this point, even as a temporary measure till any of the other possible SFs are in productive condition.

Who was guarding Antonio davis? 4-5, 10 points and 8 rebounds in 19 minutes? This from a reputedly badly declining player. 

On the plus side I think our defense was better, and of course by better I really meen slightly less horrible. None of their other players really killed us. 

Seems like a bit of an unfair knee-jerk reaction to bash Marbury, but I guess Marbury is a magnet for this stuff. People on the RealGM board were bashing him for not having made enough game winning shots, apart from that one in the playoffs against SA. I think this might be because he's rarely taken our biggest shots. It's always been JC, Houston, and (shrug) TT and Nazr. Maybe if he'd take the ones that TT and Nazr were taking (their next big shots will be their firsts for this team). Swapping him for Hinrich would have made us worse this game and we'd have been 12 points away instead of 10. It's not like Marbury disappeared. 25, 11, 7, and 2 is not the most embarrassing line I've ever seen. Maybe he didn't shoot great, but he still shot the third best percentage on our team, and the best of anyone not named Sweetney or Ariza. Blaming him for this loss is pretty irrational. Blame guys who didn't even show up, like Nazr. 

Lenny continues to suck as well. 45 minutes for Marbury? Though I suppose if we had a half decent backup PG that wouldn't be neccessary. Moochie Norris sucks too. These injuries really do hurt.


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## townknave (Jun 28, 2003)

So Rashidi, you're saying we have the worst pair of starting forwards in the league and an overall terrible frontline. This just in, huh?


The more I see us suck like this the more I want us to play our kids. It's not like we'd have been hurting ourselves in today's game by doing so, Sweetney's foul trouble notwithstanding. I think we can all vouch I've been campaigning for Sweetney to start for awhile.

Were it not for Sweetney and Ariza, this game could have been one of those embarrassment games on the level of Boston, Cleveland, and Dallas. It's obvious TT sucks and JYD is hurting. Why not start Ariza at this point, even as a temporary measure till any of the other possible SFs are in productive condition.

Who was guarding Antonio davis? 4-5, 10 points and 8 rebounds in 19 minutes? This from a reputedly badly declining player. 

On the plus side I think our defense was better, and of course by better I really meen slightly less horrible. None of their other players really killed us. 

Seems like a bit of an unfair knee-jerk reaction to bash Marbury, but I guess Marbury is a magnet for this stuff. People on the RealGM board were bashing him for not having made enough game winning shots, apart from that one in the playoffs against SA. I think this might be because he's rarely taken our biggest shots. It's always been JC, Houston, and (shrug) TT and Nazr. Maybe if he'd take the ones that TT and Nazr were taking (their next big shots will be their firsts for this team). Swapping Steph for Hinrich would have made us worse this game and we'd have been 12 points away instead of 10. It's not like Marbury disappeared. 25, 11, 7, and 2 is not the most embarrassing line I've ever seen. Maybe he didn't shoot great, but he still shot the third best percentage on our team, and the best of anyone not named Sweetney or Ariza. Blaming him for this loss is pretty irrational. Blame guys who didn't even show up, like Nazr. 

Lenny continues to suck as well. 45 minutes for Marbury? Though I suppose if we had a half decent backup PG that wouldn't be neccessary. Moochie Norris sucks too. These injuries really do hurt. Moral victories don't count, but at least this loss was a bit less crushing than some of the last few. Don't get me wrong, losing a close game on some boneheaded coaching decisions after giving up a lead in the 4th is crushing, but recent events have really lowered my expectations with this team.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

we COULD definetly trade marbury for Heinrich
you Would then be the only person i know dumber tha Layden..


I am with TK...Start Sweetney....Start Ariza...It really doesnt matter.We are a .500 team either way,so why not develop our youngins....

TRADE KT while that tiny window exists,if it does....He is NOT what this team needs...We need a low post presense...

I can not wait for JC to come back..

where are all the JC bashers/H20 lovers??


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*wow.....*

Having Nazr take the last shot against a shot-blocking Chandler was one of the stupidist plans I have ever seen. H2O should have been in. I would have put perimter players in to draw the shotblockers away from the basket and have marbury take the shot or whoever was left open. Dumb. And Penny is right...Sweetney abused Curry on offense. I still like Chandler, though. Start accumulating 1st roiunders for next year and hope to have a couple of lotto picks (read: Greg Oden). Young guys must play...and we need a better coach.


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## PROUD AMERICAN17 (Jan 16, 2005)

I think we blew our chance to get Curry. I have ranted over and over that we should get Curry for 5 months on the other board. He is 22 and already has a bigtime nba body and post game. He is playing better defensively. He just needs to learn to rebound. right now in around 35 minutes he would get around 8.5 rebounds. We would need him to push that to around 10. He will score 20ppg in this league. not a doubt in my mind.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

id prefer chandler over curry. Curry is just too one dimensional for me. Isiah is a guy that wants defense, yet he keeps bringing in players who score, and play 0 defense. Id take Tyson Chandler over Curry. Both are young, but Chandler is an enforcer in the paint. 

I think sweets is our low post option in the future, in his 2 years hes shown more intensity on D then Curry has his whole 4 years, and thats not saying much, since sweets sucks on D too. Eddys gonna be a great scorer, but thats it. Hes horrible passing out of the post, he doesnt block shots, he doesnt rebound, he doesnt play defense. Hes Allan Houston at center basically.

id rather have a sweetney chandler frontline then a KT Curry one. even looking to the future i feel Chandler will be more valuable to a team then Eddy.


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## PROUD AMERICAN17 (Jan 16, 2005)

Curry most be playing some defense siince he plays the 2nd most minutes on a bulls team that leads the nba in defense. Our frontline gets outscored every night it seems. If Curry is outscoring the guys he is playing against then he is winning his individual battle. 
A few nights ago PJ Brown tore us up. A few nights before that Curry manhandled PJ. All PJ could do was foul him repeatedly.

Sweets getting foul after foul isnt really playing defense. Its costing us points at the ft line.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

thats why basketball isnt a individual sport. you gotta play help defense, and he doesnt play man defense either. PJ Brown might be the worst example ever. hes 35 way past his days of playing good. Curry is a terrible help defender, and it shows if you watch him, and his stats show it too. 

Curry is a bad defender, plain and simple. Sweets is 6'8. How can he guard a 7'1 man without fouling? Why is he even playing on a 7'1 man in the first place? But vice versa, Sweets abused Curry on offense, when Curry shouldnt be letting Sweetney do anything. Curry doesnt get any fouls cause he never feels like trying. The only time he fouls is near halfcourt to lose games for his team. 

and by your definition of defense, i guess Allan Houston is a great defender. since when is outscoring the man your guarding good D?


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## SPIN DOCTOR (Oct 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> id prefer chandler over curry. Curry is just too one dimensional for me. Isiah is a guy that wants defense, yet he keeps bringing in players who score, and play 0 defense. Id take Tyson Chandler over Curry. Both are young, but Chandler is an enforcer in the paint.
> 
> I think sweets is our low post option in the future, in his 2 years hes shown more intensity on D then Curry has his whole 4 years, and thats not saying much, since sweets sucks on D too. Eddys gonna be a great scorer, but thats it. Hes horrible passing out of the post, he doesnt block shots, he doesnt rebound, he doesnt play defense. Hes Allan Houston at center basically.
> ...


Hey Guys.

Had to miss the game, I was coaching my at my kids BB tournament. Sounds like I missed a good one, although the pundits in Chicago are all *****in about how bad we played blah blah.

Just a quick comment regarding the twin towers, Reinsdorf just appeared on a local sports show claiming his intention is to resign both Eddy and Tyson. When it comes directly from the owner that is significant, and he hold the matching rights to both. 

It is strange that your board seems so high on Tyson and so down on Eddy, if you were to ask most Bulls fans to choose only one to keep, it would be the opposite. I'm not saying you have been tainted by past criticisms, but if you watch closely, his team defense is better than respectable. As far as 22 year old center prospects go, and its a short list, he looks very strong. Ty is a great help defender, and can bound and swat shoots, but dont ask him to shoot outside of 3 feet, he is a 7'1" version of JYD. Every time the get a bound you pray for them to pass the ball. But long-term, I can see Ty a 11pt/13rb/3bl type of guy. 

Looking forward to Monday, should be a good one, good luck!


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

for you guys, its obvious cury is more valuable. But to the knicks, they dont need another scorer, they need some D. Chandler brings that. Sweetney is an efficient scorer in the post (shooting 54 percent) and pulls down boards at a much higher rate then Eddy could dream of. Sweetney is our post scorer, and we just need a defensive minded big man like chandler to make up for our guards crappy defense like how Chandler makes up for Currys mistakes.

regardless we wont get either now, but i would rather have chandler. then in the 06 trade deadline we'll see what we can get with Tim Thomas and pennys expiring contracts along with probably our 05 first round pick. we could get a big time player.


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## PROUD AMERICAN17 (Jan 16, 2005)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> thats why basketball isnt a individual sport. you gotta play help defense, and he doesnt play man defense either. PJ Brown might be the worst example ever. hes 35 way past his days of playing good. Curry is a terrible help defender, and it shows if you watch him, and his stats show it too.
> 
> Curry is a bad defender, plain and simple. Sweets is 6'8. How can he guard a 7'1 man without fouling? Why is he even playing on a 7'1 man in the first place? But vice versa, Sweets abused Curry on offense, when Curry shouldnt be letting Sweetney do anything. Curry doesnt get any fouls cause he never feels like trying. The only time he fouls is near halfcourt to lose games for his team.
> ...



I never said outscoring somebody makes you a good defender. Teams wins games by outscoring the opposition whether you do it via offense or defense. If h20 outscores the other teams sg every single night then he is doing his job. You can be the best defender around but if your offense sucks you are not winning games. 

Once again I will ask how do the Bulls have the best defensive stats in the league if Curry plays no defense and he is their second leading minute player?

As far as pj goes how come at 35 he wasnt too old to destroy the Knicks front line the other night?

Sweets has to guard guys that are taller because nobody 6 foot 8 is as slow as sweets. In fact most guys that are 6 foot 11 are still faster than sweets. 

Sweets has some skills but he is very bad on defense and cant even stay on the court.


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## SPIN DOCTOR (Oct 31, 2002)

Penny,
Currys role in the system is not the primary rebounder, that is Tysons and Antonios, and the rest of the posse. His job is to draw defenders attention and allow post space for the rest of the guys to work. And yes, it has been working well, once guys learned their role. 

I like Sweets too, if he ever puts it together and stays healthy, he could have a nice career.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PROUD AMERICAN17</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> I never said outscoring somebody makes you a good defender. Teams wins games by outscoring the opposition whether you do it via offense or defense. If h20 outscores the other teams sg every single night then he is doing his job. You can be the best defender around but if your offense sucks you are not winning games.


tell that to bruce bowen and his championship rings. Scoring more points isnt doing your job. You gotta help your teammates too, like Chandler does. Chandler is a great help defender. We need a guy like that. Thats why old men like PJ Brown walk all over us, and not on Chi Town.


> Once again I will ask how do the Bulls have the best defensive stats in the league if Curry plays no defense and he is their second leading minute player?


The spurs are a great defensive team but Tony Parker is a crappy defender. You act as if every player on a good defensive team is a good defender. i think Luc Longley was a crappy defender, but his bulls teams were probably some of the greatest defensive teams of all time. Curry isnt a good defender. he hasnt given me any reason to believe it. You say he plays the second most minutes, but he plays 29 minutes, thats not like hes always on the floor either way.



> Sweets has to guard guys that are taller because nobody 6 foot 8 is as slow as sweets. In fact most guys that are 6 foot 11 are still faster than sweets.
> 
> Sweets has some skills but he is very bad on defense and cant even stay on the court.


Sweets is quick for his size, and its funny you bring up hes too slow to guard guys....cause he still outscores whoever hes guarding, which should be fine by you. In 16 minutes he averages 7 points 4 boards. And that fouls stuff is crap. Sweets doesnt get pulled for having 2 fouls and he knows that since hes not the starter. Starters get pulled with foul trouble cause their needed for later. Sweets is making the most of his playing time, and id rather have him hack somebody preventing the easy two then letting people score all over them. You still didnt say anything about Sweetney abusing Curry in the post. How come Curry couldnt hold him?

and i dont buy that Curry isnt the primary rebounder, since he should be. He couldnt even grab 9 boards a game in highschool, while other guys out of highschool grab way over 10, including Sg's like kobe. Shaq grabbed 22 boards a game if im not mistaken. Hes not the primary rebounder because hes not a good rebounder.


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## PROUD AMERICAN17 (Jan 16, 2005)

Penny do you post on the other Knick board? Your answers seem strangely familar. That was a load by the way saying Tony Parker is a lousy defender. I see every single game Parker has ever played in the NBA. There is no way Pop would even play him if he was a lousy defender. 
In fact tahts why they dumped Mercer last year. 
Bruce Bowens job on the team is to lock up the other teams best small scorer but that doesnt mean he doesnt have offensive responsibility. Bowen sits if he isnt hitting his 3 point shots. Only playing defense means you are no more than a role player. 

I see every spur game and I know that team extremely well both on and off the court. Bruce even goes to the same school that I graduated from.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

why do you avoid the argument? this is about Curry right? 

I think parkers a lousy defender cause he gets beat off the dribble easily. Im not a big Marbury fan but he walked by Parker like he wasnt there in the 03 playoffs. Hinrich kept steph in check yesterday, making him shoot jumpers mostly.

and yeah i post on nykfanpage,guess who i am


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Knick fans are higher on Chandler because he's similar to former Knick Marcus Camby.

Curry is a worse version of Zach Randolph (who is only 1 year older than Curry, but clearly the better player even if he moved over to center).

Curry/Chandler is a worse version of Randolph/Ratliff. I can see Chandler becoming Ratliff more than I can see Curry becoming Randolph, mostly because he just doesn't rebound. His defensive deficiencies would be excused if he could grab a rebound.

What I want from my center is scoring, rebounding, and defense. Curry only provides one of those. Chandler provides two. The centers that provide scoring are not that common, but usually they do something besides score anyway. Jamaal Magloire averages 14 and 9 with good defense. Curry averages 15 and 6 with so-so defense.

I think Curry is underrated, if only because Yao Ming is so overrated. If Curry were 7'5, he'd be as good as Yao. Yao is 7'5 but is the averagest of rebounders and shot blockers when you consider his size.

Sweetney has done nothing to show that he isn't an unathletic version of Clarence Weatherspoon. In other words, a borderline starter, despite Mark Aguirre's pleas of future stardom. I wouldn't take him over Chandler or Curry.


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## PROUD AMERICAN17 (Jan 16, 2005)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> why do you avoid the argument? this is about Curry right?
> 
> I think parkers a lousy defender cause he gets beat off the dribble easily. Im not a big Marbury fan but he walked by Parker like he wasnt there in the 03 playoffs. Hinrich kept steph in check yesterday, making him shoot jumpers mostly.
> ...



I guess since you are from Queens that I would guess you are the Queen that argued that TT was a "stellar" starting small fwd on that board and then whined and cursed at anyone that disagrees with your ridiculous over hyping of Knick players.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

i dont overhype anybody. i simply said Tim Thomas should be given the benefit of the doubt cause of the problems in his personal life, and his play with us last season before all the crap he had. I still think he can give us 16 and 5 at the 3 position like he did last year. How am i overhyping if thats what he did and im expecting him to do it again? 

Name a player i ever hyped up on the knicks.

For someone that says he doesnt hype up players you seem to act like Curry is the best center in the NBA.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Ladies, please control yourselves.


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