# Re-Merged: Thoughts on Melo's late-season ROY push



## bleedingorange (Feb 8, 2004)

*Thoughts on Melo's late-season ROY push*

Melo has scored 20 or more points in 14 of the last 15 games and 30 of the last 34. He has been the Nuggets' leading scorer or co-leading scorer in the past 10 games. Denver has now won 3 straight and 5 of 7 to stay even with Portland and Utah for the final Western Conference playoff spot, and the Nuggets hold the tie-breaker over both teams.

Meanwhile, LeBron's Cavs have lost 6 straight and 10 of 11 to skid out of playoff contention. LeBron has had an amazing rookie year, no doubt about it, and all the hype will probably be enough to give him the award. But Melo has pretty much matched him feat for feat, including tying his rookie season-high of 41 points. And Melo has done LeBron one better by helping give his team no worse than a .500 record while still keeping them on the verge of the playoffs, carrying them with two of his best games of the season in the last three when they have needed it the most. 

Thoughts?


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Carmelo gets less attention, but has done just as much if not more than Lebron this year. Lebron will probably get ROY alone because hes the one whos rooted for by the media. I personally think it should be a Co-ROY. They did it with Hill and Kidd, Francis and Brand, and this year has been closer than both those years IMO. 

Either way, both guys are amazing for 19 year olds.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> And Melo has done LeBron one better by helping give his team no worse than a .500 record while still keeping them on the verge of the playoffs, carrying them with two of his best games of the season in the last three when they have needed it the most.
> 
> Thoughts?


Put LeBron in Melo's place on the Nuggets and they are a lock for 7th seed in the West. LeBron's flat out a better player and has better stats, primarily his apg. He's the ROY.

Those are my thoughts.


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## bleedingorange (Feb 8, 2004)

Why aren't the Cavs a lock for seventh seed or better in the East?


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

I personally think Wade should win it... He's one of the top guards in FG%... where do Melo and Bron stand there? They're part of the minor 30-40% group... Wade is at 46%... BIG difference IMO.. He might score only 16 points per game but if Bron and Melo are making 20 PPG with about 37% shooting, how many shots/possesions are they wasting?


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Why aren't the Cavs a lock for seventh seed or better in the East?


Because they waited until midway through the season to rebuild their team, unlike the Nuggets.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> He might score only 16 points per game but if Bron and Melo are making 20 PPG with about 37% shooting, how many shots/possesions are they wasting?


Look it up... they're both above 40%.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Lebron shoots 42% and Melo shoots 43% from the field, not 37%

Obviously its not because Wade is a better outside shoot that he shoots 4-5% better from the field.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

I'm not going to argue this issue much... my opinion is that LeBron is the more impressive rookie by a significant margin and he should and will win the award.


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## bleedingorange (Feb 8, 2004)

If Wade didn't miss so many games due to injury (1/4 of the season), I think he might be the darkhorse and you would have an argument there. But at least with LeBron and Melo you can say they are the best players on their teams. You can't say that with Wade....yet.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

Its impossible to say if LeBron was on Denver instead of Melo they would be the 7th seed. He gets more assists, but that is the only statistical category he really has an edge in. How would LeBron co exist with Andre Miller and Marcus Camby? Although Melo hasn't exactly had the best relationship with those 2 I think LeBron's would be much worse, and thus would really kill the team chemistry. 

Carmelo had 36 (26 in the 2nd half) and 11 tonight in a win, LeBron had 14 and 5 in a loss. Cavs are 32-46 Nuggets 41-37 and 2-0 against the Cavs. When all things are pretty much equal you have to go the win column, and Melo has a huge advantage. 

Before any LeBron supporter says Melo has the better team, prior to the season the large majority of people thought the Cavs had a better team than the Nuggets. So its not like there is a huge difference in talent, and when you consider Boozer and Illgauskas might be the best C, PF combo in the East its obvious the talent level is pretty close.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

By the way, when people say that Carmelo equalled LeBron in scoring 41 points... maybe it's nitpicking but I like to point out that LeBron had 13 assists when he scored 41 and Carmelo had 0. I think that tells you how they're different as players.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> So its not like there is a huge difference in talent.


Really? I'd say hell no, there's a huge difference in talent. Miller, Camby, Nene, KV, bench, etc. You name it, Nuggets have the better everything. 

LeBron adds more athleticism to a Nuggets team that loves to run, and is a get passer. He'd be in a Jason Kidd-like situation; fast breaks with athletic, young players to dish to with his great passing ability. He'd lead the Nuggets to a better record. 

For that matter, LeBron's court vision alone would lead pretty much any team to a playoff record, in the East or West.


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## bleedingorange (Feb 8, 2004)

Sure, LeBron's 41 was more impressive due to the 13 assists, that's not the argument here. Both these players drive each other to be better whether they admit it publicly or not. The bottom line is they are different players and if assists were such a big deal, why is Kirk Hinrich the only rookie with a triple-double this year? Anyway, I simply think there's no excuse for the Cavs missing out on the playoffs in such a terrible conference.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Why is it that every discussion about Melo for ROY becomes a discussion of the Cavs vs. the Nuggets instead of Melo vs. Lebron...

Oh yeah. That's right. It's because if you had to look at them head to head it would be pretty clear that Lebron is the better player. He's faster, stronger, jumps higher, passes the ball better, dribbles the ball better...the only thing Melo really does better right now is shoot from the outside.

Lebron is averaging more points, steals, and assists is he not? And has been for for much of the season.

There have been only two others to average 20/5/5 as rookies. Jordan and Oscar.

It's more of a no-brainer than people want to admit.

But if you base these things on what the team does, then I say give the award to Dwayne Wade as seeding is more important than record, and the heat may end up with home court in the playoffs vs. the Nuggets maybe not even making the playoffs.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bleedingorange</b>!
> Anyway, I simply think there's no excuse for the Cavs missing out on the playoffs in such a terrible conference.


Did you note that when Lebron had his 41 point 13 assist 6 rebound whatever steal game, the Cavs still would have lost had he not taken the game over and scored 10 points in the final 2 minutes of the game?

There's problems in Cleveland that Lebron and Silas can't completely fix on the fly...though they did an amazing job anyways.

The Cavs were a 17 win team last year. And if they hadn't collapsed at the end of the season they could have been where Miami is right now.

Sadly, Lebron can't make Z play with more passion, or make Boozer less of a defensive liability...or heal Jeff Mcginnis's shoulder, or teach Kevin Ollie not to be a scrub...or heal Eric Williams wrist for that matter...them's the breaks.

I don't see how you can use team performance against Lebron when the team doubled their win total from a year ago.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Actually Carmelo averages more points and rebounds on a better shooting percentage, Lebron averages more assists and is a better defender.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

Here's something else... for what it's worth.

Cleveland record since Ricky Davis traded on Dec. 15: 27-30, .473%
Denver record since Dec. 15: 26-28 .481%

If Cleveland had rebuilt their team before the season started like Denver did, I don't think you would be able to use team success against them... Cleveland's management was just not as sharp as Denver's. They wouldn't have done anything at all if Silas hadn't basically demanded it.

People are saying Vandeweghe for GM of the year, and Bzdelik for Coach of the Year (not as much anymore)... so then how can Carmelo get all the credit?

They've had mostly the same people all season, they had training camp together, etc... Cleveland has started more than 17 different people this year and most of them never had training camp... I think what they've done is pretty impressive as it is.


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## bleedingorange (Feb 8, 2004)

The reason why team is somewhat important is because it is a team game and it's not all about stats all the time. If I remember correctly, both these teams had identical records last season. I also said that LeBron will win ROY, there's no secret there.

But Melo should get more props than he does. He shoots the ball better from the outside and gets to the foul line more and makes his free throws better. Over the next couple years, you will also see him get more boards and boost his average there.

Argue all you want about the assists cuz that's apparently the biggest argument all the pro-LeBron fans seem to have. But the Cavs are clearly a better team when LeBron does not have the main point guard duties on his shoulders, which is one of the main reasons the Cavs have slid without Jeff McInnis. For all of you who think LeBron's assists will go up and be Kidd-like in the long run, you are mistaken.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

According to NBA.com

Lebron:
PPG 21.1 
RPG 5.6 
APG 5.8 
SPG 1.64 
BPG .78 
FG% .416 
FT% .758 
3P% .295 
MPG 39.6 

Melo:
PPG 20.9 
RPG 6.0 
APG 2.8 
SPG 1.18 
BPG .52 
FG% .426 
FT% .771 
3P% .327 
MPG 36.5 

To me that says Lebron averages more assists, points, steals, blocks and does a comparable job in rebounding.
But that's just my reading of it.

The thing that has really seperated the both of them in terms of skills has always been Lebron's passing.

Also I would submit that Lebron is a better teammate, as with the exception of Ricky Davis, Lebron has been completely embraced by his teammates, where Melo has had to deal with a lot of bitterness over his attitude.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

Okay, my last offering for this thread is this... LeBron has had more pressure on him and more scrutiny than any rookie maybe ever, and after going through this whole spectacle of a rookie year, and still managing to surprise some people, I think he's earned it. Carmelo is very good but his team hasn't asked nearly as much of him and he hasn't been under the microscope nearly as much... I don't think that having nearly as good stats and being in the West is enough of a reason not to give it to LeBron after what has transpired.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Melo took the lead in scoring tonight.


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## bleedingorange (Feb 8, 2004)

Nevus, I agree with you 100% and that's exactly why LeBron will win the award.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I agree Melo should get his props. But I think he gets too much props sometimes. Where's the love for Dwayne Wade?

Everytime it's always Lebron and Melo, Melo and Lebron.

That to me is all media hype. When I look at them both I think they are both good players to be sure, but Lebron has that magical greatness about him that Melo is somewhat lacking in. It's like when people used to argue that Clyde Drexler was just as good as Michael Jordan...yes two similiar players, but in the important ways, two VERY diffrent players. Lebron has a chance to be one of the all-time greats. Melo really doesn't so much.

Melo is this year's Amare Stoudamire. He's an outlet for everyone who can't stand the "hype" machine for the guy who really is the special player. Sure there are some legit Melo fans. But a lot of Melo fans seem more like they are just anti-Lebron people. If they weren't then how come everytime they make a case for Melo it mentions something about the mythical "hype" that Lebron recieves? If the basis of your case is in the game, then make it in the game. There's no reason to try and bring "hype" into it.

Lebron is not hype. If you don't believe that then you haven't been paying attention at all this year. No one believed this kid could do what he is doing right now. And now that he is doing it, some people still want to try and manufacture ways to undercut him.

Lebron's rookie year has been unprecedented in the history of the NBA. You are not supposed to be able to come into the leage at 18 years old and do the things on the basketball court that he is doing on a regular basis. Hell. Some of the things he does, you just aren't flat out supposed to be able to do period.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Nevus, I agree with you 100% and that's exactly why LeBron will win the award.


Thank you.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Melo took the lead in scoring tonight.


Well then you can forgive me for not being up to speed.


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## bleedingorange (Feb 8, 2004)

Hey, easy on the Clyde vs. Michael comparisons. That's a bit harsh for two guys in their first years. I think the age thing tends to be played up a bit much also. Melo is a few months older than LeBron and just so happened to lead his college team all the way to the NCAA title when he was younger than LeBron is now.

The bottom line is that we are watching two very special players right now and we should enjoy it. The comparisons and arguments are all part of the fun. Don't take it too seriously and keep in mind that 10 years from now things could be much different. Don't forget LeBron could grow 4 or 5 inches still!


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Don't forget LeBron could grow 4 or 5 inches still!


I've thought about that... if he grows another couple inches, he's a power forward. And that's when it would start to get pretty crazy.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> I agree Melo should get his props. But I think he gets too much props sometimes. Where's the love for Dwayne Wade?
> 
> Everytime it's always Lebron and Melo, Melo and Lebron.
> ...


At the same time, I dont think that using reasoning like "Lebron has that special greatness" is legitimate at this point. Who says Melos not the MJ and Lebrons not Drexler? Its your opinion and not everyone sees it that way. Theres nothing thats happened in this season that proves Lebron is going to be a top 3 player of all time and Melo will just be an all star. 

Also, I dont understand your logic about the Heat are better than the Nuggets because they have a higher seed? The Bucks have a higher seed than the Grizzlies, but I dont think anyone would bet on the Bucks over the Grizz in a 7 game series. Its not really important to me, because Wade is starting to get extremely overrated. I'd group him with Hinrich, yet some people want to say hes up there with Lebron and Melo, and some people say hes BETTER than them, thats ridiculous.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

If Melo makes the playoffs...I think he should make it by himself. If he doesn't I think it'll be a co-RoY because both these rookies are hand-in-hand, they're both doing amazing things. Yes LeBron is great blah blah blah, but bottom line is his team is sub .500 while Melo's isn't. 

Even though LeBron will get it despite all this, I feel Melo should at least share the award with him. If he didn't, it'd be pissing on everything he's accomplished and went through, while IN THE WEST at that. Hopefully the voters are impartial about it unlike most of the posters here.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> According to NBA.com
> 
> Lebron:
> ...


Those stats aren't including today's games, LeBron scored 14 points, on 4-11 shooting while Melo had 36 points on 12-20 shooting, so LeBron's ppg and fg% is going down some while Melo's is going up, and that will put him in the rookie scoring lead (I already did the math). 

Also notice LeBron plays 3 more minutes a game, which means if Melo played those extra 3 minutes his #s would see a slight boost. Here are their per 48 minute #s not including tonight's games: 

Melo
FG% 3P% FT% STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS 
.426 .327 .771 1.56 0.7 4.1 3.6 2.9 5.0 7.9 3.7 27.5 

LeBron 
FG% 3P% FT% STL BLK TO PF OFF DEF TOT AST PTS 
.416 .295 .758 1.98 0.9 4.2 2.3 1.6 5.2 6.7 7.0 25.6 

I think either way you put it it's pretty even and like I said when all things are about equal you go to the win-loss record, here are their #s over the last 5 games including tonight's games:

Melo- 28.6 points, 7 rebounds, 1.6 assists on 48.1% shooting
Bron- 23.4 points, 5.8 rebounds, 6.4 assists on 44.3% shooting

LeBron has a big edge in assists, but Melo has distinct edges in the other 3 categories 

Nene isn't doing much this year, so the Cavs have a huge advantage at PF, I do think Denver has a better team, but I don't think its by a wide margin.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Hopefully the voters are impartial about it unlike most of the posters here.


What does that mean? If I'm partial to LeBron it's because I think he's better... why does that make my opinion less valid?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Anthony is a very cool, very good rookie.

James is at a higher level, in terms of athleticism and play-making and those two things will differentiate them more and more as they each develop.

They're pretty identical in scoring, pretty close in rebounding ('Melo with the edge) and James easily beats 'Melo in assists. Beyond those numbers, they're again pretty close down the line.

So give James the RoY for his major assists edge, since everything else is close, and gives James the edge in expectations for the future due to his superior athleticism and play-making.

That's my opinion on the two.


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## Snicka (Dec 29, 2003)

Where was Lebron tonight when his team needed the W?

I know where Melo was.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

Well, I hope when LeBron does win it, people can accept that it wasn't completely undeserving.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> So give James the RoY for his major assists edge, since everything else is close, and gives James the edge in expectations for the future due to his superior athleticism and play-making.
> 
> That's my opinion on the two.


It's Rookie of the Year, not Rookie of the Future. I know LeBron is going to be great and all, but everyone is just writing Melo off like he hasn't done anything spectacular himself. Like I said, I want Melo to win it but common sense tells me the award will end up shared.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Snicka</b>!
> Where was Lebron tonight when his team needed the W?
> 
> I know where Melo was.


That's a five-star post my friend. Got my point across exactly.


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## Fracture (Mar 31, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jtx</b>!
> If Melo makes the playoffs...I think he should make it by himself.




I completely agree, and he will.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jtx</b>!
> 
> 
> It's Rookie of the Year, not Rookie of the Future.


Yes, and I said give James the Rookie of the Year for his major assists edge *this year*, considering all their other stats are pretty similar.



> I know LeBron is going to be great and all, but everyone is just writing Melo off like he hasn't done anything spectacular himself.


I think that's just a figment of imagination in certain 'Melo fans. Most big James fans also like 'Melo a lot and say he's also tremendous.

Why must things be so black and white? Why, if someone likes James better, does that have to equate to "writing 'Melo off"?

I think both are great. I just think James is better.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Snicka</b>!
> Where was Lebron tonight when his team needed the W?
> 
> I know where Melo was.


Cavs lost their hope of making the playoffs when Jalen Rose hit a last second 3 pointer to beat the Cavs by one point at home yesterday (or two days ago, can't remember). That was after LeBron hit two clutch FTs to give the Cavs a 2 point lead.

In reality, today's Cavs game meant squat.


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## Kunlun (Jun 22, 2003)

Remember Carmelo is only a couple months older than LeBron so that means he could grow too. And remember that Larry Bird wasn't that athletic or quick either and he was one of the greatest of all time. Magic had more assists than Bird their rookie seasons, but Bird still took the award because he led his team to a better record. In a way we could say LeBron is Magic and Carmelo is Bird in today's era. LeBron is more athletic and can play almost any position just like Magic, but Carmelo is just as valuable to his team if not more like Bird.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> For that matter, LeBron's court vision alone would lead pretty much any team to a playoff record, in the East or West.


yes, because the cavs are playoff bound.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> yes, because the cavs are playoff bound.


Hence the "pretty much" qualifier.


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## bleedingorange (Feb 8, 2004)

The Cavs are playoff bound? Since when?


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

Lebron will win it no matter what, it is all politics the nba needs a new MJ to build a reputation and he is it


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Lebron will win it no matter what, it is all politics the nba needs a new MJ to build a reputation and he is it


I don't think people understand what hype is or where it comes from. There's a reason why LeBron has been such a sensation and received so much attention. It's because he's almost unbelievably good. If someone had told you a few years ago that an 18 year old would be drafted into the NBA from High School and have 25 points and 9 assists in his first ever game, would you have believed it? 

If you're saying that he will win the ROY partly because of the big impact he's had on the sport and the way he's transcended the game even as a rookie.. that's probably true. Good point. That's a testament to his talent.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>madman</b>!
> Lebron will win it no matter what, it is all politics the nba needs a new MJ to build a reputation and he is it


If that were true he would have been in the All-Star game. I think Melo should get the award but LeBron does win it, it won't be because of the hype it will because he earned. You can't go wrong with either player you pick.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

You absolutely cannot give ROY to a stupid whiny, little girl who refuses to come in and play games ( during his teams playoff push nonetheless!) because his teammates are yelling at him.


At some point you have to figure in attitude and commitment and achievement on a personal and team level into the ROY just as most do with MVP. 

IMO Melo wrote himself out of this award when he refused to play. I only wish Nene or someone else who plays the way the don't want to for the good of the team smacked him upside the head. What an idiot.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> You absolutely cannot give ROY to a stupid whiny, little girl who refuses to come in and play games ( during his teams playoff push nonetheless!) because his teammates are yelling at him.
> 
> 
> ...


carmelo isn't an adult yet. look at lebron, as of late. he starts playing like crap when the cavs need him most. they're both young and inexperienced. they'll make mistakes. carmelo made a mistake and later admonished himself for it. what more could you want? give him a break.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> he starts playing like crap when the cavs need him most.


Are you serious? His averages for his last 10 games are above his season averages. Just the other day he had 34, 8, and 10. Come on.

He and Boozer are the only ones still trying.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> carmelo isn't an adult yet. look at lebron, as of late. he starts playing like crap when the cavs need him most. they're both young and inexperienced. they'll make mistakes. carmelo made a mistake and later admonished himself for it. what more could you want? give him a break.


Lebron hasn't been playing like crap during this stretch. Z has been playing like crap. And Boozer has been exposed as a defensive liability. Lebron meanwhile has done more than should be expected of him. The one game they won against the Nets Lebron had to basically perform a miracle just to get the win. The only way he would have changed the choking of his team would be if he averaged 38, 8, 8 over this end stretch of 11 games.

And yes. At least he hasn't quit in a game yet. Of course Lebron's teammates don't snipe at him like Melo's do when things go bad.(Coincidnetally the Nuggets good play of late seems to coincide with them deciding that Melo is indeed the man on the team, and to fall in line behind him...which is what they should have done to begin with.)


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

LeBron James, last 10 games: 23.2 points, 6.5 assists, 2.2 steals.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I guess the point of this thread is whether or not what Melo has done is enough to change any minds at this point.

Maybe. But probably not. At this point I think everyone kind of has their guy figured out, as evidenced by this thread.

Though on PTI Michael Wilbon did argue Tony into admitting it was a coin flip, but that he would still vote for Lebron.

So I don't know. If Lebron doesn't win it, it's going to be one of those things where we look back a few years from now and wonder what we were thinking. Because I do think Lebron is going to seperate himself from Melo by that much of a margin. And that's with the concession that I believe Melo will be a top 10 player in 4 years. I think Lebron will be top 3 though(at worst).


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> So I don't know. If Lebron doesn't win it, it's going to be one of those things where we look back a few years from now and wonder what we were thinking. Because I do think Lebron is going to seperate himself from Melo by that much of a margin. And that's with the concession that I believe Melo will be a top 10 player in 4 years. I think Lebron will be top 3 though(at worst).


I don't think you can say that. I mean AI was ROY, and I think it is clear Kobe is the better player, but its not like you look back it at and wonder how. Granted this is a different case because both are having pretty similiar season, while AI had a much better year, but I just don't think you can say because one has more potential he should get it.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

I think this is somewhat like last year's MVP race... with TD and KG, either guy could have won and it would have been deserved. People saying that there's no way that TD should have won and KG is the real MVP, well that's just ridiculous. 

To me this is similar... I don't care if you think Carmelo deserves it, he's good enough that I can understand that, but to say that LeBron doesn't and if he wins it will be undeserved, is asinine.


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## mysterio (May 20, 2003)

Is it just me or is the above signature a little just a little too inappropriate for BBB.:whofarted


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> So I don't know. If Lebron doesn't win it, it's going to be one of those things where we look back a few years from now and wonder what we were thinking. Because I do think Lebron is going to seperate himself from Melo by that much of a margin. And that's with the concession that I believe Melo will be a top 10 player in 4 years. I think Lebron will be top 3 though(at worst).


No, if Lebron doesnt win it, it will mean there was a better rookie. ROY doesnt factor in who will have the better future. Example: player A averages 20 and 10 his rookie season, and player B plays significant minutes but doesnt produce much. Player A gets rookie of the year. 3 years later, player B becomes a top 10 player in the league and player As game falls off a bit. That doesnt mean A didnt earn the ROY by having the better rookie season. 

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. People want to assume he will be great, and because of that they want to bulk up his accomplishments. Lebron is a strong candidate for ROY, but Carmelo is just as good of a candidate if not better. So its not fair to the other strong candidates to award Lebron with the ROY because in 3 years the voters dont want to be responsible for not giving it to Lebron. These hall of fame, michael jordan type player expectations have been set by the media. 

Lebron has a very bright future, but I just think it would be better for him to earn his awards. Not to say if he wins the award that he didnt earn it, but if he does win it alone, I'll always wonder how much of a chance Carmelo actually had of winning it despite having an equally great rookie year.


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## mysterio (May 20, 2003)

It is very debatable as to who will be ROY this year. LeBron is likely going to be the better player in the long run, but for now it is very hard to decide and this season it will have to be a co-ROY award given. Yes, Lebron has slightly better stats overall, but Carmelo has lead his team to a better record as a rookie. Both teams had an identical record last season at .207, but the Nugget have grown to be the better team this season. Sure there are other factors besides Carmelo that have allowed the Nuggets to have a better season than the Cavs, but this point balances the scales in Carmelo's favor. Its just too close to call.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> No, if Lebron doesnt win it, it will mean there was a better rookie. ROY doesnt factor in who will have the better future. Example: player A averages 20 and 10 his rookie season, and player B plays significant minutes but doesnt produce much. Player A gets rookie of the year. 3 years later, player B becomes a top 10 player in the league and player As game falls off a bit. That doesnt mean A didnt earn the ROY by having the better rookie season.
> ...


Your example is not at all like the situation between Lebron and Melo. Lebron is arguably better right now, in addition to that he has more tools than Melo for being better down the road.

I like how if Lebron doesn't win it, it means there was a better rookie, but if he does win it then it's because Melo wasn't given a fair chance at the award.

Have you watched both players play? If you take away the players around them and just compare, player to player, how can you not vote for Lebron? Their stats are basically the same except Lebron averages twice as many assists.

And then just ability wise, Lebron is faster, stronger, jumps higher, is more mature...the only thing Melo does perceptablly better is shoot the ball from the outside.

And I say all of this as someone who probably thinks higher of Melo than you do, because if I remember correctly, I've already had to argue with you about Melo's future in this league, in that you don't think he'll be better than Kobe or T-Mac and I do. Was that you?


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Your example is not at all like the situation between Lebron and Melo. Lebron is arguably better right now, in addition to that he has more tools than Melo for being better down the road.


The point of that was to emphasize that the rookie year is all that matters when deciding rookie of the year. Stating that Lebron should get it because it will be a mistake in 3 years isnt right. Its not which rookie will be better in 3 years. 



> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> I like how if Lebron doesn't win it, it means there was a better rookie, but if he does win it then it's because Melo wasn't given a fair chance at the award.


Thats because Lebron is much more hyped than any other rookie. If Lebron doesnt win it, would you argue that Melo won because hes hyped? No, because its blatantly obvious who is the more hyped rookie. Because of that hype, if Lebron does win it, I said that I'll wonder whether or not Melo got a fair chance. 



> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Have you watched both players play? If you take away the players around them and just compare, player to player, how can you not vote for Lebron? Their stats are basically the same except Lebron averages twice as many assists.
> 
> And then just ability wise, Lebron is faster, stronger, jumps higher, is more mature...the only thing Melo does perceptablly better is shoot the ball from the outside.


Comparing ability and impact on the court, I think its obvious that Melo is the better scorer and rebounder. Lebron is a better passer and defender. Athletic ability affects basketball skills, its not a basketball skill itself. 



> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> And I say all of this as someone who probably thinks higher of Melo than you do, because if I remember correctly, I've already had to argue with you about Melo's future in this league, in that you don't think he'll be better than Kobe or T-Mac and I do. Was that you?


That wasnt me. I think Melo will be a top 5 player in the league, along with Lebron right beside him. I dont think either one has done anything to seperate himself from the other. I've seen Melo played very good defense at times, and be a very good passer at times, and if he patches up those things while still developing the abilities he already has, it will be very very difficult for Lebron to be any better than him.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> carmelo isn't an adult yet. look at lebron, as of late. he starts playing like crap when the cavs need him most. they're both young and inexperienced. they'll make mistakes. carmelo made a mistake and later admonished himself for it. what more could you want? give him a break.


Neither Amare, Gasol, Miller , Francis or Brand if you're using the US age definition.


I know you keep following me around, not reading my posts, attempting to prove me wrong, but it's not gonna happen; unless you start reading.


Yes, Carmelo did make a mistake, that mistake may have cost his team the 8th seed. That's why he doesn't deserve it.


For my ROY I take Dwade. However since everyone is all over Lebron's Jock, give it to him, he has done more for his team than Carmelo. Though if both don't make to the post season, I think Dwade is the obvious choice.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Yes, Carmelo did make a mistake, that mistake may have cost his team the 8th seed. That's why he doesn't deserve it.


Refusing to go back in a game where they're getting smashed already by one of the best teams in the league cost his team the 8th seed?


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Refusing to go back in a game where they're getting smashed already by one of the best teams in the league cost his team the 8th seed?


And the argument can't even be used that since then they haven't been playing well since they have won of 5 of 8 since that game.

I also think since then the team has come to the realization that Denver is Melo's team everybody else needs to fall in line, which only benefits them.


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## Like A Breath (Jun 16, 2003)

Even though I think LeBron deserves it, I hope Melo DOES win so everybody will shut up about their "hype machine" crap all of the time. How can people in this thread honestly say that Melo doesn't get his props from the media. I question if people really watch television or just live in a dream world where everybody is just conspiracizing to hype LeBron James.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Refusing to go back in a game where they're getting smashed already by one of the best teams in the league cost his team the 8th seed?



You're saying that he couldn't have lead his team back into contention? You're saying that his actions, didn't demoralize the fast break team offense they were running? You're saying that refusing to play with your teammates doesn't put a strain on an already fragile relationship?


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> You're saying that he couldn't have lead his team back into contention? You're saying that his actions, didn't demoralize the fast break team offense they were running? You're saying that refusing to play with your teammates doesn't put a strain on an already fragile relationship?


Chances are he wouldnt have been able to lead his team from being down 20 or so against the Pistons. The Nuggets were most likely going to lose that game either way. 

You cant really say he put a strain on the relationship since the Nuggets are playing well lately, seemingly since that game. 

Of course Melo shouldnt have done it, but it did NOT cost his team the 8th seed, not even close.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Yes, Carmelo did make a mistake, that mistake may have cost his team the 8th seed. That's why he doesn't deserve it.


:laugh:


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats because Lebron is much more hyped than any other rookie. If Lebron doesnt win it, would you argue that Melo won because hes hyped? No, because its blatantly obvious who is the more hyped rookie. Because of that hype, if Lebron does win it, I said that I'll wonder whether or not Melo got a fair chance.


This is a bogus arguement. Melo has gotten nearly as much pub as Lebron. You act like people would be unaware of Melo...he won the national championship at Syracuse. He won several polls prior to the draft about who would be the better rookie between him and Lebron. His jersey is the second best seller in the league.

Melo is not at a hype deficit. Dwayne Wade is. But not Melo.

Melo's advantage is that he doesn't get the anti-hype that Lebron gets. No one is out there saying "I hate all the hype Melo gets". But there are plenty of people who would vote against Lebron just on the basis of hype.

Hype is nothing.

I just think you choose the best rookie player for Rookie of the Year. And over the course of the season that has been Lebron James. The fact that he is doing it straight from high school only accentuates Lebron's magnitude.

Michael Jordan and Oscar Robertson are the only players as rookies to put up the numbers like Lebron. And Lebron is coming right out of high school. If you step back and look at this all in perspective instead of just getting caught up in "hype" and this team or that team and just look at the straight poop, it's a pretty open and shut case.

I for one would like to see Lebron win. He already missed out on the all-star game because people didn't want to "give in to the hype"...I'd like to see what he did get official recognition. We can gripe and complain about hype and whether he deserved it or not after he wins the award.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> I just think you choose the best rookie player for Rookie of the Year.


This is my point. You dont give it to the player who will be better in 3 years, you dont give it to the guy who is hyped, you dont give it to the guy who isnt hyped because hes not hyped. You give it to the best player. 

I'm not against the hype, I'm against people who buy into it and let it affect the way they choose whos the better rookie. If you honestly think Lebron is the better rookie, then to each his own.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> No one is out there saying "I hate all the hype Melo gets".


:wave:


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Example: Kenny the jet chose Lebron because hes "done better than he was expected to"...exactly what I'm talking about. Expectations going into the season shouldnt hold any weight in deciding which player had the better rookie season.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> This is my point. You dont give it to the player who will be better in 3 years, you dont give it to the guy who is hyped, you dont give it to the guy who isnt hyped because hes not hyped. You give it to the best player.
> ...


I honestly think Lebron is the better rookie and he deserves the award. The 3 year thing was only added to the fact that he is better now. My arguement is that if one of them is to get it, Lebron has the edge. And the gap between the two of them will only get wider. Once Lebron locks down his jumper a little bit better after a summer of work, he's going to be unstoppable.

Steve Nash said he was the fastest player free throw line to free throw line in the NBA. And this is a 6-8 250 pound 19 year old.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> 
> :wave:


:laugh:
Well besides you. If you could have it your way, they wouldn't give a rookie of the year award this year.:laugh:


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Example: Kenny the jet chose Lebron because hes "done better than he was expected to"...exactly what I'm talking about. Expectations going into the season shouldnt hold any weight in deciding which player had the better rookie season.


That's a legit reason to vote for him though. That's a reference to him coming straight out of high school. That's voting for the history of it all. Which is totally valid. It's a large part of the reason Amare won it last year. A lot of guys decided Amare coming straight from high school was more impressive than Yao coming from China.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> That's a legit reason to vote for him though. That's a reference to him coming straight out of high school. That's voting for the history of it all. Which is totally valid. It's a large part of the reason Amare won it last year. A lot of guys decided Amare coming straight from high school was more impressive than Yao coming from China.


So rookie of the year is who exceeds expectations the most and not who is actually the best player? If so, then I have no problems with Lebron getting it. Hes definitely exceeded expectations and should get proper respect for it.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by *Like a Breath*:
> Even though I think LeBron deserves it, I hope Melo DOES win so everybody will shut up about their "hype machine" crap all of the time. How can people in this thread honestly say that Melo doesn't get his props from the media. I question if people really watch television or just live in a dream world where everybody is just conspiracizing to hype LeBron James.


That's a very interesting take, good post. It really bothers me too how every time there's a discussion of LeBron vs. Carmelo, the people on the Carmelo side inevitably start talking about "the hype." Bottom line, that has nothing to do with what happens on the basketball court. 

The hype is not voting for rookie of the year; other people who have their own opinions are, and if LeBron wins, it will be because more of the voters thought he's had a better year. 

Why wouldn't Carmelo have had a fair chance? John the Cool Kid, you know you've been one of my favorite posters here since I joined, but this is the one thing I don't understand from you. It sounds like you're saying that there is no fair way that LeBron can win the ROY, that you won't ever be satisifed that he deserved it. I just don't get it. You don't see him as at least a valid choice? Or you don't trust the voters? Maybe you don't think the voters are aware of Carmelo Anthony. I'm pretty sure they are, and he's been getting a lot of press all year.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> Why wouldn't Carmelo have had a fair chance? John the Cool Kid, you know you've been one of my favorite posters here since I joined, but this is the one thing I don't understand from you. It sounds like you're saying that there is no fair way that LeBron can win the ROY, that you won't ever be satisifed that he deserved it. I just don't get it. You don't see him as at least a valid choice? Or you don't trust the voters? Maybe you don't think the voters are aware of Carmelo Anthony. I'm pretty sure they are, and he's been getting a lot of press all year.


Its because I question the reasoning behind picking him. I've seen numerous people who vote for Lebron for the wrong reasons. Those reasons being because hes exceeded expectations, done better than any other rookie out of high school, etc. Those are all things that Lebron should get respect for, but not things that should be factored into rookie of the year. I never said Lebron doesnt deserve it, I think both guys deserve it. If Lebron wins it, I'll just wonder how much Carmelo was really considered. 

That doesnt mean Lebron didnt deserve it, I'll just feel that Melo was cheated out of atleast being Co-ROY because of my personal feelings on good they've been this season. If the voters choose Lebron because they think hes the better player, then so be it. How am I supposed to know whether they did or not though? and how do I know they arent one of the people who vote for Lebron because of one of the reasons that shouldnt be factored in? I cant believe for sure that the voters will all be people who vote for the guy who had the better season, when theres so many reporters/posters/fans that use irrelevent reasoning.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Chances are he wouldnt have been able to lead his team from being down 20 or so against the Pistons. The Nuggets were most likely going to lose that game either way.


They've over come bigger deficits before, though maybe the couldn't against the pistons, point being we'll never know.



> You cant really say he put a strain on the relationship since the Nuggets are playing well lately, seemingly since that game.
> 
> Of course Melo shouldnt have done it, but it did NOT cost his team the 8th seed, not even close.



Wrong since that episode they've lost 7 of their last 15, that's not playing well, that's barely over .500.


Furthermore it may have an effect on Camby coming back, and you can be certain it will have an impact on the strained relationship between himself and Miller.



> Originally Posted by*spriggan9*
> 
> :laugh:



I think you've reached the limit of your wit with that clever retort.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> They've over come bigger deficits before, though maybe the couldn't against the pistons, point being we'll never know.
> ...


That happened the2nd time they played Detroit, and like I posted before they have won 5 of 8 since then, so get it right. The very next game they were blown out at Minny then won their next 2.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> They've over come bigger deficits before, though maybe the couldn't against the pistons, point being we'll never know.


We'll never know, but its highly unlikely. I doubt you can pin the whole season on Melo not returning to a blowout game against a top 5 team in the NBA. I can name situations where Miller took horrible shots down the stretch of a game that actually cost them the game, and 1 game could be the difference between them making it or not. 



> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Wrong since that episode they've lost 7 of their last 15, that's not playing well, that's barely over .500.


8-7 is about 53% winning. Their record on the season is 41-37, which is also about 53%. I was mainly referring to them winning 5 of their last 7 though. I think thats a result of him and Miller squashing the beef, and both of them further understanding their responsiblities within the team.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

Well, thanks for answering that John. Is there any way LeBron could win where you wouldn't feel Carmelo is being cheated? If not, it doesn't seem that you're being very fair yourself.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

they should just do co-RoY this year and get it over with cuz its been the closest in nba history i'd say. 

you give it to james, the melo supporters like me will think he was cheated. give it to melo, the james lovers will cry. it goes both ways, so hopefully people buy into my argument come voting time.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> they should just do co-RoY this year and get it over with cuz its been the closest in nba history i'd say.
> 
> you give it to james, the melo supporters like me will think he was cheated. give it to melo, the james lovers will cry. it goes both ways, so hopefully people buy into my argument come voting time.


Well, they can't just vote for co-ROY. They have to pick one. It's shared if they tie.

I liked how you took a nice jab at LeBron's fans there. For a guy who is so hyped, it sure is unpopular to like him. 

That reminds me, has anyone seen Jockrider lately? Seems that he's over it... knock on wood...


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jtx</b>!
> they should just do co-RoY this year and get it over with cuz its been the closest in nba history i'd say.
> 
> you give it to james, the melo supporters like me will think he was cheated. give it to melo, the james lovers will cry. it goes both ways, so hopefully people buy into my argument come voting time.


I find it funny that you are a melo supporter, and people who support James are James Lovers.

I would be okay with a co-rookie of the year. But I would not be a fan of Melo winning it, especially if it's just on the basis of what his team has done versus Lebron's, because unlike the MVP the Rookie of the Year has no relation to team. MVP you can argue means most valuable to their team. But Rookie of the Year means the best rookie in the league without respect to team.

I've seen people take this line of reasoning into far too many awards that have nothing to do with teams. Team awards are conference, division banners...Rings...things of that sort. with the exception of MVP the rest of the player awards should be based upon the players performance and not on the teams.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> Well, thanks for answering that John. Is there any way LeBron could win where you wouldn't feel Carmelo is being cheated? If not, it doesn't seem that you're being very fair yourself.


I think it should be a Co-ROY. I think both of them would be somewhat cheated if the other one got it alone. Although if Lebron got it alone, Melo would be cheated more than Lebron would be if Melo got it(if that makes sense). Thats because I think Melo is the slightly better player this year. 

Its the people saying its not even close that are out of line or influenced by something other than performance and impact on the court.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> I liked how you took a nice jab at LeBron's fans there. For a guy who is so hyped, it sure is unpopular to like him.
> 
> That reminds me, has anyone seen Jockrider lately? Seems that he's over it... knock on wood...


I like lebron, he's a good player very strong and fast but I like Melo a lot more. also what are you getting at with that jockrider reference? i'm proud to chill with melo he won my city a title.


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## tpb2 (Oct 23, 2003)

Vote for LeBron: question if "The Hype" got to them

Vote for Melo: question if it's a fashionable pick

It goes both ways for many. I'll vote for LeBron, but Melo isnt as far back NOW as some say. If you judge on stats, LeBron is the winner (20-5-5: MJ, Big O, LBJ). 

I'm not a big fan on judging the 'extras' in order to determine an award like this. Things like jersey sales, NBA popularity, attendance, television buzz, exact team W-L dont count in my book for this award, and I never said they should. 

Cutting that stuff out, LeBron has the better all-around numbers. It's certainly not a blow out victory though, that's one think John the Cool Kid is right about. 

Cool Kid,

I see your point about voters' motives for picking James. However, I think those go both ways. There is anti-hype and writers who want to seem a bit more original. There are are whole bunch of dumb things involved. I acknowledge those, which I think is important to you. It seems like you really want to stand up against the voting more than you're going against James. But that's a non-issue when talking about who _should_ win. 

So when James wins ROY, which is locked up already according to the large vote, I think you have some right to say that Melo _should_ have gotten more votes or that some people voting for both players voted with a bit of bad reasoning at times. I think the right guy will win, but the next two guys might not get their fair share of basketball respect in the vote (not this hype crap, what they did on the court).


Also for the individual east/west thing (not team),

LeBron's numbers vs East = numbers vs west
Carmelo's numbers vs East = numbers vs west

'=' here means very close, probably just chance difference (last I checked scoring was like 20.5-west to 20.8-east or something really close for both players. At one point they both scored better against the west, but it was so little it didnt mean anything)


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> I like lebron, he's a good player very strong and fast but I like Melo a lot more. also what are you getting at with that jockrider reference? i'm proud to chill with melo he won my city a title.


Didn't mean Jockrider had anything to do with you... it just reminded me of him when you made that jab about LeBron lovers crying.


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## Snicka (Dec 29, 2003)

I personally want Melo to lose to Bron in the voting. 

What a motivator that would be. 

I want to see a pissed off Melo destroy the league next year.


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## chapi (Apr 4, 2003)

i hope lebron wins it. he is slightly better in my mind
but if the vote difference is big (either way) than they should really examine the heads of the voters or change the system.

melo and lebron are so close now statisticaly and effectivness wise....


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> I think you've reached the limit of your wit with that clever retort.


this coming from the guy who thought carmelo's sit out in the 4th quarter of a game when the nuggets are down by 20 to the pistons is a big factor as to why the nuggets may not make the playoffs this year.  

sadly, you don't realize that if it wasn't for carmelo, denver would be nowhere close to a playoff team.

you also don't seem to realize that carmelo has stepped it up lately and is single-handedly keeping denver in contention for that #8 spot.

there are many things you don't seem to realize, actually.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

If you're gonna make it a co-ROY, then it should be a 3-way tie

Wade, besides getting hurt, has done just as much as Melo but doesnt get media exposure until recently.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> If you're gonna make it a co-ROY, then it should be a 3-way tie
> 
> Wade, besides getting hurt, has done just as much as Melo but doesnt get media exposure until recently.


I don't get how he's done as much?

Melo
FG% 3P% FT% STL BLK TO OFF DEF TOT AST PTS 
.428 .329 .774 1.18 0.5 3.1 2.2 3.9 6.1 2.8 21.1 

Wade
FG% 3P% FT% STL BLK TO OFF DEF TOT AST PTS 
.468 .292 .746 1.37 0.6 3.2 1.4 2.7 4.1 4.5 16.3 

From the #s Melo has clearly done more, and he was played 21 more games than Wade so that gives him even more of a boost. Wade is clearly 3rd this year, I don't see how you can make a serious argument for Wade, even if you are a Heat fan.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

dwyane wade is 3rd fiddle.

he doesn't deal with the pressures that #1 options do, like carmelo and lebron.

the opposition has better things to worry about, like lamar odom in the paint and eddie jones on the perimeter.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> 
> 
> That happened the2nd time they played Detroit, and like I posted before they have won 5 of 8 since then, so get it right. The very next game they were blown out at Minny then won their next 2.



Calm down, I don't pay attention to anything you post, I don't think you're worth the time, I wasn't directing my conversation towards you, nor have I ever. Also, you suck at math. Stick to chewing gum.





> We'll never know, but its highly unlikely. I doubt you can pin the whole season on Melo not returning to a blowout game against a top 5 team in the NBA. I can name situations where Miller took horrible shots down the stretch of a game that actually cost them the game, and 1 game could be the difference between them making it or not.



I'm not pinning the whole season Melo, I never stated that ; I only referenced there possible lack of playoff contention, because the 8th seed seems to be boiling down to a one game race . 


Your point is noted that Miller takes more than his share of questionable shots, however, Miller is not up for the Rookie of the year Award and Melo is. j


His actions need to have some accountability.



For this reason, and the fact that LBJ is not going to the show, nor did he provide a means of efficent scoring, I think you have to give the award to a guy who helped his team get to the show, and provided efficency on both offense and defense-


Dwayne Wade.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> dwyane wade is 3rd fiddle.
> 
> he doesn't deal with the pressures that #1 options do, like carmelo and lebron.
> ...



Lamar Odom in the Paint hahahah!

You realize Wade is the second option on that team behind Lamar right?


Do you also realize Dwarne wade averages more assits and steals and shoots a much higher percentage while playing nearly the same amount of time and, taking nearly the same amount of shots?


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> For this reason, and the fact that LBJ is not going to the show, nor did he provide a means of efficent scoring, I think you have to give the award to a guy who helped his team get to the show, and provided efficency on both offense and defense-


Nuggets are still the favorite to take the 8th spot based on their current record/remaining games and tiebreakers. Utah and Portland have to finish one game ahead of Denver to advance because of the tiebreakers. 

So its still likely that Melo will have 'led' his team to the "show" and he did it in the conference where it actually means something. Wade 'helped' his team to the playoffs in the junior varsity conference. Huge difference. Melos put up much bigger as well. 

Anyways, Wade isnt even part of this. Its Lebron vs. Carmelo for rookie of the year. Wade is just rooted for because hes a huge underdog. Hinrich is almost as qualified as Wade for ROY. 

1. Melo
2. Lebron



3. Wade/Hinrich/Bosh


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

And plus Lebron's stats slaughter Wades, with more points, assists, and rebounds. Where with Melo they are more close statistically...even though James almost averages double Melo's assists...which seems to be a very underrated thing around here considering that they average nearly identical points and rebounds...


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> even though James almost averages double Melo's assists...which seems to be a very underrated thing around here considering that they average nearly identical points and rebounds...


I've heard several reasons why that doesn't mean anything...

A) Although LeBron edges Melo in assists, Melo edges LeBron in rebounds and points. .5 rebounds and a few tenths of a point per game are about equal to 3 assists.

B) The Cavaliers are better without LeBron playing the point. Therefore, when LeBron has a lot of assists, he's not really helping the team.

C) Carmelo is not a playmaker like LeBron is... therefore it's unfair to expect him to get assists like LeBron. 

Just keeping notes...


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no, wade is the 3rd option. when you're the 3rd highest scoring person on a team, and you shoot a good deal less than the 2 leading scorers, you are not the 2nd option. like i said before, he's 3rd fiddle. he doesn't deal with with constant double teams like lebron and carmelo. he doesn't have the best defender on the other team guarding him every single game.

also, wade is a PG with a horrid assist to turnover ratio. 3.25 turnovers and only 4.5 assists a game? justify that.

seriously, wade is just the fashionable pick. very few people outside of heat fans actually believe he's better than lebron and carmelo.

and why are you laughing at "lamar odom in the paint"? he's great in the paint.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> no, wade is the 3rd option. when you're the 3rd highest scoring person on a team, and you shoot a good deal less than the 2 leading scorers, you are not the 2nd option. like i said before, he's 3rd fiddle. he doesn't deal with with constant double teams like lebron and carmelo. he doesn't have the best defender on the other team guarding him every single game.


He averages the same number of shots as Eddie jones? Have you watched the heat?


> also, wade is a PG with a horrid assist to turnover ratio. 3.25 turnovers and only 4.5 assists a game? justify that.
> 
> seriously, wade is just the fashionable pick. very few people outside of heat fans actually believe he's better than lebron and carmelo.



*edited: No personal attacks* Lebron James averages 3.43 and Carmelo averages 3.08. Carmelo averages more turnovers than assits and Lebron has a higher A/T ratio.

Neither one of them have been entrusted with point guard duties for the whole season.

So let me ask why you are using statistics to prove *edited: No personal attacks*?



> Nuggets are still the favorite to take the 8th spot based on their current record/remaining games and tiebreakers. Utah and Portland have to finish one game ahead of Denver to advance because of the tiebreakers.


How the heck are the nugs favored, they have a harder schedule than Portland, Utah is the one with the easisest schedule.




> So its still likely that Melo will have 'led' his team to the "show" and he did it in the conference where it actually means something. Wade 'helped' his team to the playoffs in the junior varsity conference. Huge difference. Melos put up much bigger as well.


Bigger turnovers, More shot attempts and a laughable field goal percentatge.

Wade didn't help his team, he created a dynamic scoring option, and another stellar wing defender.

Furthermore that JV conference crap is a fools argument. What's next you want to do the if Carmelo and Wade switched places crap?


> Anyways, Wade isnt even part of this. Its Lebron vs. Carmelo for rookie of the year. Wade is just rooted for because hes a huge underdog. Hinrich is almost as qualified as Wade for ROY.
> 
> 1. Melo
> 2. Lebron
> ...


*edited: No personal attacks* as to put Bosh and Hinrich on the same page as Wade, especially with your JV argument, neither one of them lead there team to anything near a winning record much less a playoff run.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

HE PLAYS POINT FOR A GOOD PART OF THE YEAR AND HANDLES THE BALL MORE THEN MELO. WELL HE HAS MORE ASSISTS, WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT?????

And sure he has more skills to handle the ball. But overall his assist numbers per minute are below average / average for a point guard. But were going to reward average or below average totals - I am not so sure about that

I am leaning towards giving the ROY to Lebron. But I am sick and tired of some of the Lebron lovers here saying the choice is obvious and that Lebron is "signifantly" better because of assists. Assists are an element of how often you handle the ball - and if your assists relative to the amount of time you hold the ball are only average why are you getting rewarded for it.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> HE PLAYS POINT FOR A GOOD PART OF THE YEAR AND HANDLES THE BALL MORE THEN MELO. WELL HE HAS MORE ASSISTS, WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT?????
> 
> And sure he has more skills to handle the ball. But overall his assist numbers per minute are below average / average for a point guard. But were going to reward average or below average totals - I am not so sure about that
> ...


Lebron would average more assists than Melo even if he were playing small forward. He is a better passer than Melo and he is more unselfish. I'm sorry if the only way you can rationlize this in your mind is something as insignificant as Lebron's position. His numbers have been pretty consistent across the board regardless of switching position(which is pretty impressive actually).


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

Melo is just not a big assists guy...that's why he has a point guard throwing him the ball. Its ridiculous to look at a small forward's assist #'s and criticize him based on that. He's rebounding, and he's shooting which is what a SF is supposed to do, case closed.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> [quoteHe averages the same number of shots as Eddie jones? Have you watched the heat?


have you?



> *edited* Lebron James averages 3.43 and Carmelo averages 3.08. Carmelo averages more turnovers than assits and Lebron has a higher A/T ratio.
> 
> Neither one of them have been entrusted with point guard duties for the whole season.
> 
> So let me ask why you are using statistics to prove *edited*?


please continue posting. you are becoming increasingly laughable.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Melo is just not a big assists guy...that's why he has a point guard throwing him the ball. Its ridiculous to look at a small forward's assist #'s and criticize him based on that. He's rebounding, and he's shooting which is what a SF is supposed to do, case closed.


It's not criticsm of Carmelo that he doesn't make as many assists of LeBron. It's just that, other things being basically equal, LeBron gives you an element above and beyond that. You're right, Carmelo is just not that kind of player. He doesn't have to be, unless he wants to be as valuable as LeBron.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> have you?
> ...



You can stop following me around the board now kid, you're all out of material.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> You can stop following me around the board now kid, you're all out of material.


how am i following you around the board when this is the only thread i've replied to you in?

dwyane wade isn't in the running, period. i'd suggest you get over it. get yourself a girl or something, chum.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> How the heck are the nugs favored, they have a harder schedule than Portland, Utah is the one with the easisest schedule.


Denver has a harder remaining schedule than Portland? Are you kidding? Man I cant even respond to you anymore.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Denver has a harder remaining schedule than Portland? Are you kidding? Man I cant even respond to you anymore.


knicksbiggestfan suffers from therealdeal syndrome.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Denver has a harder remaining schedule than Portland? Are you kidding? Man I cant even respond to you anymore.


They showed Portland's remaining schedule, and I nearly cried for them. That's just not fair.

Denver, LA, San Antonio, with all three games being very important for all teams involved.

The Blazers need a ****ing miracle to make the playoffs.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> knicksbiggestfan suffers from therealdeal syndrome.


Apparently so. Playing the two best teams in the NBA, and Denver in your three remaining games is about as hard as it gets. If you factor when I originally posted the post he quoted, Portland played the Spurs tonight too. That means they play the two best teams in the NBA 3 of the their final 4 games. Incredible.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> They showed Portland's remaining schedule, and I nearly cried for them. That's just not fair.
> 
> Denver, LA, San Antonio, with all three games being very important for all teams involved.
> ...


Seriously. Their remaining schedule now doesnt show how hard it was with about 6 left. Two against LA, two against SA, and then Denver which is going to be probably the hardest one since so much is on the line. Portland kind of lightened the blow by beating LA the first time though, that was impressive.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I think they'll beat LA and Denver, but lose to San Antonio.

That will make them 43-39.

Denver has Sactown, San Antonio and the aformentioned Blazers game.

They'll beat Sactown. But lose the other two.(Obviously I'm thinking the Spurs are going to run the table the rest of the year).

That would make them 42-40.

And then Utah has Houston, Pho, and Minny. Think they'll drop to Houston, beat Phoenix, lose Minny.

Which would make them, 42-40.

With Portland pulling off the miracle, and all of us asking, how'd that happen?

Seriously though. I hope Denver makes it. I want to see Melo in the playoffs wrecking shop.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

That Denver-Portland game is going to be a big one. I love those type of games, its one thing to be in the playoffs already, but two teams fighting for playoff contention that gets all summed up in one game is like a game 7. In this its between two teams of the exact same calibur. Theres nothing better. 

I'd say Utah has a chance if I still wasnt skeptical about them winning games. I could see them losing the rest of their games this season, but somehow they just win games. Its weird.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> I'd say Utah has a chance if I still wasnt skeptical about them winning games. I could see them losing the rest of their games this season, but somehow they just win games. Its weird.


I think we've all been saying this about Utah since the first week of November.:laugh:


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

*So who is ROTY? Wade or Melo?*

Both rookies had outstanding seasons. One has already lead his team to the playoffs. One still has a chance. 

So which deserves it the most?


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## LebronMVP23 (Apr 10, 2004)

Neither it will be Lebron, everyone already said they would vote for Lebron!!!


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Lebron isn't ROTY. Melo has his team in contention to be in the playoffs in the west of all places and has around the same stats. 

Wade has already put the Heat in the playoffs. 

Lebron isn't even making the playoffs and on top of that choked down the stretch. 

I find it funny that analyst are now eating their words, claiming just a month or so ago that the Cavs were a playoff team and Lebron should be considered a MVP canidate, LOL!!!! :laugh: 

Melo and Wade have got no love but have did more as far as winning goes for their teams.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Denver has a harder remaining schedule than Portland? Are you kidding? Man I cant even respond to you anymore.


As you can see they do, remember, it's not just about which team has the most wins, sometimes you have to look at match ups, I don't remember the last time the nugs one against houston, but it sure wasn't this season.


Anyway they now face Portland, Sac and San Antonio

Portland Faces Denver San An, and the Lakers


They are 2-1 against the Lakers and 2-1 against Sac town.


However, by all means stop responding to me.




> how am i following you around the board when this is the only thread i've replied to you in?
> 
> dwyane wade isn't in the running, period. i'd suggest you get over it. get yourself a girl or something, chum.


Chum? Hahhaha Anyway let's see there was that thread on the Knick board where everyone laughed at you, the thread in the Kobe Vs Tmac, where you proved yourself to be illiterate and everyone laughed at you and this one where you proved you couldn't to basic arthimetic.

You're 0-3, but keep it at I don't mind using you as a whipping boy.


At least now you're reading posts before you respond to comments. That's an improvement.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> As you can see they do, remember, it's not just about which team has the most wins, sometimes you have to look at match ups, I don't remember the last time the nugs one against houston, but it sure wasn't this season.
> ...


well, i've never been on the knick board, so i'm not sure what you're talking about.

as for the kobe vs t-mac thing, i simply misread what the guy wrote. it happens. it's called making a "mistake".

so that's it? just that one thing and all of a sudden i'm "always responding to you"? i've already pointed out the only time i responded to you: this thread. feel free to search through all your posts and mine for more examples. god knows you probably have enough time on your hands.

the real question is: when are you going to get off my jock? it's kind of cute, though.

0-3? talk about a deficiency in arithmetic skills.

*edited*


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> well, i've never been on the knick board, so i'm not sure what you're talking about.
> ...



You sure show your true colors pretty fast. At least other kids have more patience and tact, you on the other hand jump right into the *edited* 


That's sad but you really should *edited*


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Knicksbiggestfan and spriggan9, don't respond to each other again in this thread unless you are prepared to be completely polite. I'll just start deleting hostile posts between the two of you from now on.

If you really want to argue in an insulting tone, you are free to do so in PMs. But no more in this thread, thanks.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

I love you spriggan!


Let's stop all the fussing and feuding and cuddle?


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

only if you pay for dinner


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> only if you pay for dinner



Fine, no supersizing.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Fine, no supersizing.


:laugh: 

actually, didn't mcdonalds take out supersizing?

i think the gov't made them remove it recently because so many americans are overweight.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> actually, didn't mcdonalds take out supersizing?
> 
> i think the gov't made them remove it recently because so many americans are overweight.


That's right.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> That's right.


Thats right, but thats wrong. Whats next, they'll limit how much you can order? What good is taking out supersizing if they can just order another thing of fries if they want to. No sense is made. :no:


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats right, but thats wrong. Whats next, they'll limit how much you can order? What good is taking out supersizing if they can just order another thing of fries if they want to. No sense is made. :no:


Probably because supersizing only costs an additional $0.49 (or less, can't remember), whereas buying a separate order of (small) fries costs $0.99. 

OK, back to basketball.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Probably because supersizing only costs an additional $0.49 (or less, can't remember), whereas buying a separate order of (small) fries costs $0.99.
> 
> OK, back to basketball.


So basically they should make everything more expensive so fat people can only afford so much food.  

As long as packages of ramen noodles are 8 for a dollar, I'm set.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

Well, in general portion sizes should be smaller in this country. You're just encouraging people to overeat when you sell a bag of fries that big. If things were sold in smaller portions, it would take a more deliberate attempt to eat too much.


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## martin bolima (Jun 11, 2003)

Lebron and Melo will be co-rookie of the year. Both have just been unbelievable this year. It doesn't matter if the Cavs don't make the playoffs. Lebron's played a great season nd it'll be a disgrace if he isn't ROY. However, it'll also be a robbery to leave Melo because he has been just as good. And for all intents and purposes, Portland is a better team to have in the playoffs.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

*IMO Melo Officially Won ROY Tonight*

Huge game against the Blazers...

He willed them to victory...

(I think Portland got jobbed)

But anyway Melo hit the big shots...

If he wills his team to playoffs especially after Lebron allowed his team to lose 7 straight and play themselves out, how can he not be ROY?


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

I don't think that's being fair to LeBron. He's not the reason his team hasn't been winning recently. He's been playing well recently but if you aren't even in striking distance at the end, you don't have a chance to make the big plays.


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## TP3 (Jan 26, 2003)

The obvious choice is James.


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

Might end up like last year ROY.

Where Amare's team went to the playoffs and Amare won ROY.
Yao didnt make the Playoffs so they left him as second best rookie.

But i really hope it is a CoROY:Carmelo & Lebron


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MiamiHeat03</b>!
> But i really hope it is a CoROY:Carmelo & Lebron


and its lookin more and more like this will be the case


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

sorry no,
worst cast scenerio they split the roy, but lebron will take it home imo


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Agree with arenas. Tonight's super performance from Melo seals the deal. To make the playoffs in the WC after winnin' 17 last year is ridiculous. Carmelo's play the past 10 games or so has been fantastic, while LeBron faded away......especially once McInnis went down. 

I love LeBron....but wins has to be the deciding factor here. Melo' gets the edge.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

if lebron takes it, that's a crime.

co-ROTY at least.


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

Sorry,
But Melo didnt fuel crap, I gurantee that locker room veterns pulled that team together and melo took a backseat because he probaly was on thin ice in the lockeroom after his hoorah the game he said he wasnt coming back in.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>SamTheMan67</b>!
> Sorry,
> But Melo didnt fuel crap, I gurantee that locker room veterns pulled that team together and melo took a backseat because he probaly was on thin ice in the lockeroom after his hoorah the game he said he wasnt coming back in.


enjoying that haterade?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Again. Lebron didn't exactly fade away down the stretch. Remember that 41 point 13 assist 6 board game he had against New Jersey? Only reason the Cavs won that game was because Lebron scored 10 points in the finals 2 minutes.

But you can only do so much. You're teammates have to do their part too. Melo's teammates did their thang to put him in a position to be successfull.


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

Sorry about my spelling my keyboards broken and lol well ;p


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Carmelo's play the past 10 games or so has been fantastic, while LeBron faded away


That's not true at all. What makes you say that? There is a difference between the Cavs fading away and LeBron fading away. He's had some of his best games of the season recently. It just hasn't been enough. In the last 10 games, he's averaging more points, assists, and steals than he's averaged for the season as a whole.

Really, what justification is there for saying that LeBron has faded away?


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Whether or not Melo wins ROY, hes a winner. The guy is money, and hes only 19. Amazing. Absolutely amazing. 

(0:29) [DEN 92-91] Anthony Driving Layup: Made (22 PTS)
(0:03) [DEN 94-93] Anthony Fade Away: Made (24 PTS)
(4:21) [DEN 96-93] Anthony Fade Away: Made (26 PTS)
(3:39) [DEN 98-93] Anthony Jump Shot: Made (28 PTS) Assist: Boykins (5 AST)
(1:39) [DEN 104-94] Anthony Slam Dunk Shot: Made (30 PTS) Assist: Boykins (6 AST)

On top of that, I didnt take out the misses. He made his last 5 shots to put it away. Unbelievable. 

On a sidenote, why does everything positive Melo or Lebron does have to automatically equal a negative for the other one?


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> On a sidenote, why does everything positive Melo or Lebron does have to automatically equal a negative for the other one?


I'm about ready to call a ceasefire on this topic until we see who actually wins it... it's getting pretty intense right now. I don't think I have the stamina to keep it up.


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## J Pops (Sep 13, 2003)

*Melo for ROY*

i beliveve if melo can lead the nuggets to the playoffs he should awarded the ROY....its similar to the amare yao ROY situation


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

Is this the 6th or 7th yao amare , carmelo for roy thread?


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## Duece Duece (Mar 28, 2003)

Melo put the Nuggets on his back and carried them to this victory. Melo is the ROY if Denver makes the playoffs. PERIOD.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Please stop creating "Anthony for RoY" threads. We have four such threads currently merged here. There's only need for one such thread...each new thought or conviction you have on the subject can be added to this one.

Thanks.


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## NugzFan (Jul 26, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Why is it that every discussion about Melo for ROY becomes a discussion of the Cavs vs. the Nuggets instead of Melo vs. Lebron...
> 
> Oh yeah. That's right. It's because if you had to look at them head to head it would be pretty clear that Lebron is the better player. He's faster, stronger, jumps higher, passes the ball better, dribbles the ball better...the only thing Melo really does better right now is shoot from the outside.


:laugh:


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## NugzFan (Jul 26, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Again. Lebron didn't exactly fade away down the stretch. Remember that 41 point 13 assist 6 board game he had against New Jersey? Only reason the Cavs won that game was because Lebron scored 10 points in the finals 2 minutes.
> 
> But you can only do so much. You're teammates have to do their part too. Melo's teammates did their thang to put him in a position to be successfull.


:laugh: 

if people dont think this is melos team by now, they will never learn.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> ...


Oh no doubt. The Nuggets recent success seems to stem from the fact that veterans finally swallowed their pride and allowed Melo to take charge...But the point is that one guy can't just go out and win a game from wire to wire, especially only scoring 30 points. The team has to stay close. Play a little defense, do their roles, ect. for it all to work how it should.

In Cleveland the problem wasn't with Lebron's play. It was with Z becoming soft, Mcginnis going down, Ollie being so pathetic that they had to sign Mateen Cleaves and START him. Eric Williams getting injured(or actually just flat out disapearing behind Lee Nailon, who actually plays defense worse than Lebron--so now you have two guys on the wings that give up penetration, Boozer being too small to do much about it, and Z being too much of a ***** to stick his broken nose into things). If you watched the cavs the last 12 games, they have looked like the team that started the season. Their defense was just deplorable and Z was out there getting pushed around. The only bright spot was Lebron and Boozer's offense(neither play much defense).

To me if you're going to point to one game and say that seals it up for ROY it's the monster 41 point game Lebron had. That was jaw dropping. The last minute of that game was mind boggling. And yeah later Melo got his 41. But Lebron did 41 with 13 assists and 6 boards and some steals. It was one of the monster games of the year by anyone, let alone a rookie coming straight from high school who wasn't supposed to be able to do anything in this league.

That said. Good game for Melo and big win for the Nuggets. I'm hoping they get in. I'm tired of the top rookies not getting to the playoffs for years and years. And after Melo with Syracuse, it would be outright magical to have a run in the playoffs. I think Melo will kick his game up another notch in the playoffs, if that is possible. Superstars win playoff series, and depending on their opponent, I wouldn't rule out the Nuggets.


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## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

you guys counted the jazz out?

Utah last two games @Minnesota and against Phoenix

Denver last two games against Sacrament and @San Antonio


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

A lot of tonights win had to do with Marcus Camby, attributing this win solely to carmelo, and saying he put the team on his back is just stupid the team had a combined 27 assists, I think that's pretty Key, not that melo didn't hit big shots, because he did, but there is a reason he gets a lot of isolations and open looks.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> A lot of tonights win had to do with Marcus Camby, attributing this win solely to carmelo, and saying he put the team on his back is just stupid the team had a combined 27 assists, I think that's pretty Key, not that melo didn't hit big shots, because he did, but there is a reason he gets a lot of isolations and open looks.


he gets open looks? who are the opposing teams going to send doubles on, if anybody on the nuggets? only melo, every shot they showed on fastbreak the defender was tight on him. only open looks he gets are fastbreak dunks.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

Denver has a really tough two game schedule coming up. They are not going to beat the Spurs. The Jazz are probably not going to beat Minnesota. So for the Nuggets to make the playoffs, one of two things has to happen... 1) The Kings blow another game that they should win, which is not out of the question, or 2) The Suns play a strong game and actually win, which happens from time to time. 

I think Utah's going to get it. I've got to go with Jerry Sloan at this point. 

Frankly I hope the Nuggets don't make the playoffs so the ROY can be decided by comparing the two players individually and not by the teams' accomplishment.


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## lakegz (Mar 31, 2004)

ive wanted Melo to win it all year long and if they make the playoffs and win a game or two, i think hell get the award.


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## NugzFan (Jul 26, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh no doubt. The Nuggets recent success seems to stem from the fact that veterans finally swallowed their pride and allowed Melo to take charge...But the point is that one guy can't just go out and win a game from wire to wire, especially only scoring 30 points. The team has to stay close. Play a little defense, do their roles, ect. for it all to work how it should.
> ...


the stats are close...but melo does it in the west. and his team wins. should be co roy. but frankly im far more concerned with the playoff race than the roy race.


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## NugzFan (Jul 26, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> A lot of tonights win had to do with Marcus Camby, attributing this win solely to carmelo, and saying he put the team on his back is just stupid the team had a combined 27 assists, I think that's pretty Key, not that melo didn't hit big shots, because he did, but there is a reason he gets a lot of isolations and open looks.


yeah yeah...when we win melo got help. when the cavs win, it was all bron. blah blah.


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## NugzFan (Jul 26, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> Denver has a really tough two game schedule coming up. They are not going to beat the Spurs. The Jazz are probably not going to beat Minnesota. So for the Nuggets to make the playoffs, one of two things has to happen... 1) The Kings blow another game that they should win, which is not out of the question, or 2) The Suns play a strong game and actually win, which happens from time to time.
> 
> I think Utah's going to get it. I've got to go with Jerry Sloan at this point.
> ...


too late. melos teams accomplishment is already defined as greater than brons. missing the playoffs or making it is a one game difference. 

whether the voters take it into consideration is one thing...questioning the impact is another. the cavs play OUT EAST. its the east! lol.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> 
> 
> too late. melos teams accomplishment is already defined as greater than brons. missing the playoffs or making it is a one game difference.
> ...


Is there actually any evidence to support the claim that playing in one conference versus the other affects a player one way or the other?

Brad Miller was in the lowly east last year and he did pretty damn well for himself out West. At the top position out west to boot.

Meanwhile, Stephon Marbury has gone east, and his team is 7th. Last year he was on a team that was 8th in the West. He seems to be roughly the same player regardless of conference.

Flip Murray played better out west. So did Sam Cassell. But then Lamar Odom has gotten his game together out East.

Antoine Walker is the same player for the Mavs that he was on the Celtics.

Rasheed Wallace has been great out east. He was pretty good out west too though.

Darius Miles has played his best ball on the West Coast, despite stinking it up for a year and a half in Cleveland...

So really this east coast-west coast thing has no merit to it when you are talking on a player by player basis.


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## bleedingorange (Feb 8, 2004)

All I've got to say to all the LeBron lovers is watch the Nuggets-Kings game on Monday night. For those of you who missed it, Melo put on another amazing performance in Saturday night's OT victory against Portland, and a Denver win over Sacramento coupled with a Utah loss at Minnesota will put the Nuggets into the playoffs. The Nuggets will definitely need another special game from Melo, and he hasn't disappointed yet...


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bleedingorange</b>!
> All I've got to say to all the LeBron lovers is watch the Nuggets-Kings game on Monday night. For those of you who missed it, Melo put on another amazing performance in Saturday night's OT victory against Portland, and a Denver win over Sacramento coupled with a Utah loss at Minnesota will put the Nuggets into the playoffs. The Nuggets will definitely need another special game from Melo, and he hasn't disappointed yet...


Go watch the Nets-Cavs game from a week or so ago. That is taking over down the stretch. Damn.

All indications so far seem to be that Lebron is going to win the award regardless of Melo making the playoffs.

When do they vote?


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## lesanecrooks7 (Jun 5, 2003)

Melo has won at least a share of the ROY.

Between the Cavs collapse and The Nuggets finishing with a winning record and at most 1 game out of the Playoffs. Melo will probably at least share the award with LeBron.

LeBron deserves plenty of praise too ... But Melo has made it too tough to leave him out of the picture.

The way he took over the portland game ( esp. the shot to tie with 3 ticks left ) put him over the top IMO.


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## lesanecrooks7 (Jun 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All Indications from where?

The Cleveland Plains Dealer?

Look Around a lil bit.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> All Indications from where?
> 
> The Cleveland Plains Dealer?
> 
> Look Around a lil bit.


I looked around on Denver's Rocky Mountain News and I found this:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/nuggets/article/0,1299,DRMN_20_2759899,00.html

It probably won't be that big of a difference now that Cleveland didn't make the playoffs.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Marcus Camby is the MVP of the Nuggets tonight once again.

Without Camby the Nuggets are trash and proved it.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> I looked around on Denver's Rocky Mountain News and I found this:
> 
> http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/nuggets/article/0,1299,DRMN_20_2759899,00.html
> ...


Here are some of the quotes from Lebron voters: 



> "As good as Anthony has been, he did not have to play with anywhere near the expectations that people were placing on James."





> "LeBron's my choice because, if we don't pick him, three years from now we're going to laugh ourselves silly," said Dave D'Alessandro of the Newark (N.J.) Star-Ledger. "By then, he will be the best player in the league, period."





> "I'm voting for LeBron," said David Dupree of USA Today. "He has had so much more pressure on him than Carmelo and has handled it all very well."


I still think thats a ridiculous reason to vote for someone as the rookie of the year. The expectations came from something outside of the basketball world, the media. Carmelo didnt have the same expectations, so he didnt have the same chance to exceed expectations. It wasnt an even playing field. Thats where I say Lebron will win because of the hype. He was hyped, and lived up to it, so that automatically means hes the best rookie in some peoples minds, which is false. 

Not to mention, voting for Lebron out of fear of looking back in 3 years and "looking silly" is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Its pure speculation. You're not supposed to give the rookie of the year to the guy who you think is going to have the better career. Who says we dont look back in 3 years and laugh ourselves silly because we didnt pick Melo? 

Anyways, if Lebron gets votes like that, I just hope its made clear that Rookie of the Year is not necessarily the best rookie, but the one who exceeded expectations the most.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

There are plenty of bad reasons to vote for Carmelo Anthony too.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> There are plenty of bad reasons to vote for Carmelo Anthony too.


are you referring to the fact that some people might vote for carmelo simply because of the immense hype surrounding lebron?


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> are you referring to the fact that some people might vote for carmelo simply because of the immense hype surrounding lebron?


That is certainly one. My point is that there are bad reasons to vote for either one. Maybe we should just call off the ROY award this year since so many people could vote for the wrong reasons.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> There are plenty of bad reasons to vote for Carmelo Anthony too.


Theres the team argument, which is somewhat a bad argument. Atleast it has to do with what happens on the court though.

If players of any calibur team can be compared, then it should be clear that Hinrich is better than Wade, but people say Hinrich plays on the worst team in the NBA and Wade plays for a playoff team so thats the difference. 

Hype and expectations are standards set by the media and have nothing to do with what goes on the court.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

What about the argument I just made in another thread... the Nuggets are leading the Kings in the third quarter by as much as 13 since I've been watching, yet Carmelo is 5-21 with 13 points and 1 assist.... can you imagine the Cavaliers ever leading the Kings by double digits in the second half with LeBron playing like that? And this isn't the first time the Nuggets have been able to overcome a poor game from Carmelo to do that. I just don't think he's as valuable to them as LeBron has been to the Cavs. By a significant margin.

There's no way the Cavs would find a way to outplay an elite team like the Kings without a strong game from LeBron... are you going to say you think they could? Not in a million years... they need him to play 40+ minutes and play very well to be competitive against the better teams.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> What about the argument I just made in another thread... the Nuggets are leading the Kings in the third quarter by as much as 13 since I've been watching, yet Carmelo is 5-21 with 13 points and 1 assist.... can you imagine the Cavaliers ever leading the Kings by double digits in the second half with LeBron playing like that? And this isn't the first time the Nuggets have been able to overcome a poor game from Carmelo to do that. I just don't think he's as valuable to them as LeBron has been to the Cavs. By a significant margin.


Cavs are 2-1 without Lebron this year. The one loss coming to the Kings, and they only lost by 6.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Cavs are 2-1 without Lebron this year. The one loss coming to the Kings, and they only lost by 6.


Being without LeBron is different than having him have a weak game. Do you think they could compete with the Kings with him shooting 5-22 with 1 assist?

How would they be in the game? Boozer, Ilgauskas, and McInnis keeping them in the game with the Kings despite LeBron shooting under 25% on 22 shots and not giving them anything in assists? I can't see it.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> Being without LeBron is different than having him have a weak game. Do you think they could compete with the Kings with him shooting 5-21 with 1 assist?


It obviously depends on how the Kings are playing. Nuggets are only up by 2 right now. 

Nuggets are better than the Cavs minus Melo/Lebron but Melo is still the best player on the Nuggets while Lebron is also the best on the Cavs. Its not like Wade whos obviously inferior to Odom this year.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Nuggets are better than the Cavs minus Melo/Lebron but Melo is still the best player on the Nuggets while Lebron is also the best on the Cavs. Its not like Wade whos obviously inferior to Odom this year.


I agree.

I'm just saying, I don't think the Cavs have any way to overcome a poor game from LeBron and still compete with a good team. I've seen the Nuggets do that on more than one occasion this season. The Cavs need LeBron's A-game every night for 40 minutes in order to compete with the better teams. It's amazing that he's played well all season considering how hard they ride him sometimes.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> I agree.
> 
> I'm just saying, I don't think the Cavs have any way to overcome a poor game from LeBron and still compete with a good team. I've seen the Nuggets do that on more than one occasion this season. The Cavs need LeBron's A-game every night for 40 minutes in order to compete with the better teams. It's amazing that he's played well all season considering how hard they ride him sometimes.


They did compete with the Kings without Lebron even playing though. I think the Cavs roleplayers are very underrated. Nuggets roleplayers are better, and thats why they have a much better record in the better conference, but that doesnt mean Boozer, Z, McInnis, etc arent good.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> They did compete with the Kings without Lebron even playing though.


I know, that's different. There's a difference between not having a guy, and having a guy shoot 5-22. When you don't have the guy the rest of the players can adjust. When you have a guy and he's just not playing well, it's much harder. The Cavs would not be in a game most of the time if LeBron's off by that much.

It's almost like if Tracy McGrady is shooting 5-22... what are the chances that Gooden and Howard are keeping them in the game? I think the Cavs' roleplayers are certainly better than the Magic's, but I think that's a good analogy.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Marcus Camby is the MVP of the Nuggets. No doubt.

Earlier in the season I would have said Miller too over Anthony but he has fallen off but the Nuggets as a whole also cooled off.

When Camby missed games you could see the impact he has. Not even his awesome rebounding/blocks statistics. Even the assists he is getting for a big guy and the defense he plays.

Camby is definately all nba defensive material in my opinion wether that is 2nd or 3rd team.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> Marcus Camby is the MVP of the Nuggets. No doubt.
> 
> Earlier in the season I would have said Miller too over Anthony but he has fallen off but the Nuggets as a whole also cooled off.
> ...


camby can have his games, but he's usually a black hole on offense.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

Since I'm using this game as an example and since Camby has come up, in this game he's got 13 points on 50% shooting, 19 rebounds, 7 assists, and 4 blocked shots.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Cambys having a really good game tonight. Scoring over his season average, double his season average in rebounds, and has 7 assists to go with it when his season average of assists is only 2. Four blocks tonight also. 

Its still Carmelos team though, Camby is like Melos Boozer.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

So even if the Nuggets win this game against the Kings with Carmelo shooting 6-24 (25%), you will still think he's as critical to his team's success as LeBron is?


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

Granted, it's pretty unusual that Peja is 0-6 from 3.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

the hawks and wizards have beaten the kings.

it happens.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

woooooo Nuggets up 6 looks like theyll be clinching playoff birth tonight!


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> So even if the Nuggets win this game against the Kings with Carmelo shooting 6-24 (25%), you will still think he's as critical to his team's success as LeBron is?


It depends, Kings are up and down, they are on the back end of a back to back. So who knows. Earlier in the season the Cavs were only down by 1 going into the 4th against the Twolves, and Lebron was having an off game. 

I think Melo is as, or more important to his team than Lebron.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

this is why the team arguement should just be dropped.

It's Rookie of the Year. Not Most Valuable Player to his team. It's about the Rookie who had the biggest impact in the NBA. And clearly that is Lebron.

Last year it should have been Yao Ming. But again people like to turn these individual awards into team awards.

It's really no more complex than that.

Lebron will most likely win the MVP, it will probably be close, but he'll probaby win it. And Melo will have to be consoled with the fact that he is playing in the playoffs, which I guarantee Lebron would trade the award in a second for that opportunity.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

People have been saying, "If the Nuggets make the playoffs, Carmelo is the ROY." So I guess in this game, he sealed it some peoples' minds despite shooting 7-25... I just don't like that.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Team success has more merit than "exceeding expectations"


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Team success has more merit than "exceeding expectations"


You're really hung up on that, aren't you? I don't think either of them mean that much in this case. LeBron is just a more valuable player and a player who's made a bigger impact in the NBA in his rookie year. End of story.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> You're really hung up on that, aren't you? I don't think either of them mean that much in this case. LeBron is just a more valuable player and a player who's made a bigger impact in the NBA in his rookie year. End of story.


I disagree. If that were the case, all these voters wouldnt need to use reasons other than court impact to justify why Lebron is ROY. Carmelo is the better rookie, end of story.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> You're really hung up on that, aren't you? I don't think either of them mean that much in this case. LeBron is just a more valuable player and a player who's made a bigger impact in the NBA in his rookie year. End of story.


carmelo has had a better year. end of story.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Team success has more merit than "exceeding expectations"


Not if you look at the fact that one exceeding expectations is still something that the player himself did with no real help from anyone else, whereas Team Success is not directly attributable to one player.

And it's not like the expectations weren't a big hurdle for Lebron. He went in every night with a big target on his back because of all the hype and generally lived up to it.

They were chanting over-rated and hype when the kid was drafted.

People have been rooting for him to fail. But he went out and did his thing. Lebron has clearly had to go through a lot more this season than Melo in terms of his day to day game to game...

There was a ton more pressure on Lebron to succeed this year than there was Melo, and he didn't let it fade him. That has to count for something.

And I guarantee the sports writers who have been hounding him all year will recognize that fact.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

I wouldn't say either player is more important to their team than the other. I don't mean to sound like therealdeal but the Cavs are 2-1 without LeBron and their recent slide was because of the absence of Jeff McCinnis not because LeBron was playing poorly, actually LeBron was playing magnificent but it still didn't matter. LeBron is important to the team, but you can't easily say he is more important than Melo. 

Tonight Melo shot 7-25 and only scored 17 points and played with a Migraine headhache and they still won, so obviously both teams have enough talent to win with their stars playing poorly or not playing at all.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> I disagree. If that were the case, all these voters wouldnt need to use reasons other than court impact to justify why Lebron is ROY. Carmelo is the better rookie, end of story.


They don't need to. They just want to. End of story! 

Do you really think that one cliche comment is the only reason why anyone thinks LeBron is better?


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> carmelo has had a better year. end of story.


The end of the story is that despite his team having more success, I disagree and so do a lot of other people. This was LeBron's year despite coming up short in the end.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Also when you're just talking about on the court, Lebron's stats are better than Melo's. They are the same across the board but Lebron gets more steals and twice as many assists.

It would be a shame that Lebron put up numbers that put him in the company of Oscar and MJ and yet still couldn't win the award, merely because Melo's team got to the playoffs, and Lebron's just missed out.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> The end of the story is that despite his team having more success, I disagree and so do a lot of other people. This was LeBron's year despite coming up short in the end.


let's see:

carmelo averages more boards and shoots a higher percentage the field, and gets to the line far more often.

lebron averages more assists.

the rest of the stats are fairly negligible, including PPG which will be virtually even after tonight.

carmelo is in the west, his team has far more wins than the cavs and have just made the playoffs, after only winning 17 games last season.

the cavs doubled their win total, but failed to make the playoffs in the lowly east.

how, pray tell, has lebron had the better season?


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> let's see:
> 
> carmelo averages more boards and shoots a higher percentage the field, and gets to the line far more often.
> 
> lebron averages more assists.


Do you think .6 boards per game and .013% FG is equivalent to 3 assists?



> carmelo is in the west, his team has far more wins than the cavs and have just made the playoffs, after only winning 17 games last season.
> 
> the cavs doubled their win total, but failed to make the playoffs in the lowly east.
> 
> how, pray tell, has lebron had the better season?


The Cavaliers haven't had a better season than the Nuggets. But individually, he has had a better season than Carmelo.

John's probably right that Carmelo didn't have an equal chance going in.. because more was asked of LeBron. He had a bigger challenge this season. He amazed a lot of people with how he handled it. Carmelo didn't have the same challenge, maybe he didn't get the same chance. That's how it worked out.


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## ToddMacCulloch11 (May 31, 2003)

I wouldn't really mind co-rookie of the year. Both have had great seasons, and both have turned their teams around. You can make a case for both of them easily.


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## bleedingorange (Feb 8, 2004)

That was one game. LeBron will win Rookie of the Year, and he did play probably the best game by one player all season. But your argument is weak off one game. Melo had a terrible game tonight but you can't deny his passion down the stretch and will to win over the last month of the season. Like I said, LeBron will win ROY and Melo is in the playoffs. Ask both players what they'd rather have and the playoffs is what they'd both want more. Melo is the winner there. Can't deny that.


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## bleedingorange (Feb 8, 2004)

LeBron will win Rookie of the Year, and he did play probably the best game by one player all season with his performance against the Nets. But that argument is weak off one game. Melo had a terrible game tonight but you can't deny his passion down the stretch and will to win over the last month of the season. Like I said, LeBron will win ROY and Melo is in the playoffs. Ask both players what they'd rather have and the playoffs is what they'd both want more. Melo is the winner there. Can't deny that.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Melo played through a migraine headache tonight, which explains his below average performance. He still had the heart to go out there and compete, and made some big plays in the late stages of the game.


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## Lynx (Mar 6, 2004)

Melo's gotta going on. He had headache tonight but still had the heart to play the game. And what could be more exciting for him to see his idol His Airness Micheal Jordan watching him play.

Best of luck Melo. It ain't gonna be easy competiting Spurs or Wolves but I hope you to win at least a game in the postseason!


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Melo played through a migraine headache tonight, which explains his below average performance. He still had the heart to go out there and compete, and made some big plays in the late stages of the game.


Lebron played through a game with the flu this season where he had to actually go back to the locker room for a few minutes because he couldn't breathe.

I'm just saying...


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Who cares? When LeBron wins ROY we can all look back and laugh at how hard some were pimping Melo. Melo's good, just not better than LeBron.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Of course Lebron is the ROY, hes exceeded expectations. Next year he'll be the MVP because hes dealt with the pressure. One day he'll win a title because of his expectations. 

Way more people are pimping Lebron as more than what he is, most of the Melo supporters are saying its close, while the Lebron supporters are saying its not even close Lebron is by far the better rookie and we should vote for him because in three years we'll look silly if we dont.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Of course Lebron is the ROY, hes exceeded expectations. Next year he'll be the MVP because hes dealt with the pressure. One day he'll win a title because of his expectations.
> 
> Way more people are pimping Lebron as more than what he is, most of the Melo supporters are saying its close, while the Lebron supporters are saying its not even close Lebron is by far the better rookie and we should vote for him because in three years we'll look silly if we dont.


LeBron and Melo's stats are identical....except for that little thing called passing, which LeBron leads by a full 3 assists. There's just no way you can make it co-ROY or Melo outright with a straight face. What's your jusitification, team success? Harder conference? That's just not enough to overcome 3 apg as well as LeBron's other amazing abilities.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> LeBron and Melo's stats are identical....except for that little thing called passing, which LeBron leads by a full 3 assists. There's just no way you can make it co-ROY or Melo outright with a straight face. What's your jusitification, team success? Harder conference? That's just not enough to overcome 3 apg as well as LeBron's other amazing abilities.


Melo playing against tougher competition more often, and still getting his team into the playoffs. I value those two things more than I value 3 assists. Putting up more scoring on a more efficient percentage against greater defenders makes the gap in scoring much bigger than the PPG shows. Carmelos averaging around 26 a game over the last 30 games on 47% from the field. Earlier in the season it was debatable who was the better scorer, now its not. Carmelo is putting up much bigger, more efficent scoring numbers against tougher competition.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Melo playing against tougher competition more often, and still getting his team into the playoffs. I value those two things more than I value 3 assists.


Competition was tougher in the West, yes, but that really doesn't translate to anything. LeBron has to defend better guards in the East, while Melo merely has to defend small forwards in the West. LeBron has the easier job offensively maybe, but if that's the case, he certainly has the tougher job defensively. 

I don't know what to say about your "getting his team into the playoffs" comment, that means absolutely nothing considering the Nuggets are much much better than the Cavs. 



> Putting up more scoring on a more efficient percentage against greater defenders makes the gap in scoring much bigger than the PPG shows. Carmelos averaging around 26 a game over the last 30 games on 47% from the field. Earlier in the season it was debatable who was the better scorer, now its not. Carmelo is putting up much bigger, more efficent scoring numbers against tougher competition.


"More" scoring? What is it now, 0.1 ppg more than LeBron? That's nothing. Melo's a slightly more efficient scorer, needing 1.3 shots per game less than LeBron to score. He has a 1.5% higher FG%. Melo's, at best, a slightly better scorer. Averaging 26 ppg over 30 games means absolutely nothing, it's merely one part of the season.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

why do people keep bringing up stats, as if that's the definitive argument.

lebron with a 3 assist edge? wow.

i seem to remember ricky davis averaging 20 5 and 5 on the cavs last year. is he a superstar?

bob sura has gotten 3 triple doubles in a row and is averaging nearly 15 10 and 5 a game since he joined the hawks. is he a superstar?

stackhouse once averaged nearly 30 points a game in a season. is he a superstar?

lebron averages 21 5 and 6. carmelo averages 21 6 and 3.

face it, when the stats are this close, you take them out of the equation. 

lebron is a point forward on a worse team. i would certainly hope he averages more assists.

what you're left with is the following: carmelo will keep playing. lebron's season is over.

oh and, the fact that denver is in the west offsets the fact that they have a slightly better team than the cavs. yes, slightly. denver really isn't much more talented than the cavs.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> "More" scoring? What is it now, 0.1 ppg more than LeBron? That's nothing. Melo's a slightly more efficient scorer, needing 1.3 shots per game less than LeBron to score. He has a 1.5% higher FG%. Melo's, at best, a slightly better scorer. Averaging 26 ppg over 30 games means absolutely nothing, it's merely one part of the season.


I dont mean to be picky, but the player pages show a .3 difference. The 30 games alone dont mean anything, but the fact that its still going and hes been steadily getting better throughout the season makes it different. For the last half of the season, Carmelo has been playing at a level Lebron hasnt been able to play at, at anytime this year. Lebron may get the rookie of the year, but right now at this moment, Carmelo is the better player. The current 30+ streak of games thats still going show that Melo is a much better, more efficient scorer at this moment. Since the all star break, which is when teams make their playoff push, Melo has averaged 4 more points on 5% better from the field against much better defenders. No contest in that department.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Melo's team faces tougher competition in the West. Melo himself does not face tougher competition out west than Lebron.

This isn't like Baseball where teams don't play each other.

The east/west arguement is a very weak one in my opinion when you are evualating individual talent. As I've already posted, if the West was so much harder for an individual to play in, then why has Brad Miller gotten so much better since coming west?

If anything it's easier to score out West with the up and down styles of play. Except for San Antonio and Houston no one out West slows the game down anything like they do out east.

21, 5, 6 is better overall than
21, 6, 3.

3 assists is pretty huge. If Lebron averaged 3 more assists he would be at the top of the league in assists. It's a pretty significant gap when the other numbers are knotted.

Maybe if Lebron focused on his own scoring more than setting up his own teammates he could average 27 points instead of 21, since that's at least 3 possessions that he gave up more than Melo which he could have used for his own gain.

It would be a travesty to overlook the first rookie since Jordan to do 20, 5 ,5.

As far as the Ricky Davis comparison...well if you think Ricky Davis is better than Lebron...you're welcome to that opinion. But it's pretty clear that Lebron is vastly superior. They played on the same court this year and Lebron proved to be the much better player. Ricky couldn't hack it. If the Cavs had gotten rid of Ricky Davis even sooner, they might have made the playoffs.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Melo's team faces tougher competition in the West. Melo himself does not face tougher competition out west than Lebron.


Melo faces much better defenders IMO. 

Mavericks - Josh Howard/Michael Finley
Rockets - Jim Jackson with Yao behind him
Grizzlies - James Posey/Shane Battier
Timberwolves - Kevin Garnett
Spurs - Bruce Bowen/Manu Ginobili with Duncan behind
Jazz - Andrei Kirilenko
Warriors - Mickael Pietrus/Dunleavy
Clippers - Corey Maggette with Brand behind
Lakers - Rick Fox, Devean George and Kobe with Shaq behind
Suns - Shawn Marion
Blazers - Ruben Patterson, Darius Miles with Ratliff behind
Sonics - Rashard Lewis
Kings - Doug Christie/Peja Stojakovic

Kings and _maybe_ the Warriors (Pietrus is a beast though) are the only somewhat easy teams to score on. The rest have very very elite defenders or shotblockers that make it hard to get to the hole. 

The East has: 
Celtics - Pierce 
Heat - Eddie Jones 
Nets - Kerry Kittles 
Knicks - Allan Houston
Magic - Tmac
76ers - Allen Iverson
Wizards - Larry Hughes
Hawks - Sura/Jackson
Bulls - Crawford
Pistons - Great guard defense, with a shotblocker
Pacers - Ron Artest with JO behind him
Bucks - Redd
Raptors - Carter

Besides the Pacers, Pistons and maybe Eddie Jones, those are some pretty average to below average defenders. Nothing like seeing Kirilenko, Bowen, Garnett, Patterson, Marion, etc with much better more intimidating shotblockers behind like Shaq, Duncan, Ratliff, Yao, Dampier, Brand, etc. Teams like the Heat, Celtics, Knicks, Magic, Hawks, Bulls and Raptors have literally no elite shotblockers. So on top of mediocre perimeter defense, they have very weak interior defense and shotblocking. Hell, even Pau Gasol is better than the majority of big men in the east defensively, and I didnt even mention him. 

Obviously the East has the better offensive guards, and that means Lebron has a harder matchup on defense, but a lot of those great offensive guards arent good defenders which is what I'm talking about as far as scoring.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> As far as the Ricky Davis comparison...well if you think Ricky Davis is better than Lebron...you're welcome to that opinion. But it's pretty clear that Lebron is vastly superior. They played on the same court this year and Lebron proved to be the much better player. Ricky couldn't hack it. If the Cavs had gotten rid of Ricky Davis even sooner, they might have made the playoffs.


when did i ever say lebron isn't better than ricky davis? he obviously is.

i was just giving an example.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Of course Lebron is the ROY, hes exceeded expectations. Next year he'll be the MVP because hes dealt with the pressure. One day he'll win a title because of his expectations.


:laugh:


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## darknezx (Apr 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Melo faces much better defenders IMO.
> ...


That shows nothing, as someone has already mentioned they do face guards/forwards from the other conference, it's not like they play exclusively in the East/West respectively. Listing the East or West matchups are pointless imo, just goes to show how far both have come to be compared together.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>darknezx</b>!
> That shows nothing, as someone has already mentioned they do face guards/forwards from the other conference, it's not like they play exclusively in the East/West respectively. Listing the East or West matchups are pointless imo, just goes to show how far both have come to be compared together.


You play conference/division teams 4 times, you only play opposite conference teams 2 times. Thats twice as many games against the western teams with tougher defenders.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Lebron has the *potential* to become something extremely special in the next years, and i don´t believe Melo has that kind of raw potential.

Yet, it´s the ROY award, so it´s *this season* and this season only that counts.

And considering that, i don´t know how can one exclude the possibility of Melo getting the award, less co-winning (sp?) it.

Melo had one heck of a season.
Keep in mind that *his* season isn´t over.
Check the Nugget´s evolution from last year (i know that Melo wasn´t the only reason, but it´s undeniable that he was one of the main reasons) - they freaking made the playoffs in the West!

IMHO, if there ever was a season deserving of two ROY winners, this is the one...


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

Lebron James was playing poorly in that 7 game loseing streak.

The reason the Denver Nuggets are in the playoff hunt is because of the graet consistent play of Carmelo Anthony all season long.

Lebron James Plays in a weak eastern confrence. To say it's not his fault than he shouldnt be considered the MAN on that team.

Also I would just like to point out that Carmelo is already proven to hit the big shots and has a flare for the dramatics at the end of basketball games Like Michael Jordan use to do to Lebron James Cavs Beat them when it counts at the end of the game.

You can't deny Carmelo Anthony He did it in High School (and when matched up against Lebron James Beat him every time) He did it in College and took his team to win the National Championship. And he's doing it now as a Pro in the NBA. Thats the facts jack.

I like Lebron James game don't get me wrong but a lot of great dunkers and passers have been in NBA before Lebon James and have never been winners.

IMO Lebron James has a lot to prove. I want him to do well but I havent seen him do anything when it counts yet. And if you consider last year in high school than you set the bar to low for him if you consider not making the playoffs in the worst confrence in the nba 10 times worst than the West. Than again you set the bar to low for Lebron James.

Carmelo Anthony Will be huge in the Playoffs while as Charles Barkely and Kenny Smith say Lebron James will be gone fishing. Out of Sight and Out of Mind.


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## tpb2 (Oct 23, 2003)

Once again, *statistically*

LeBron's stats vs East = LeBron's stats vs West

Carmelo's stats vs East = Carmelo's stats vs West


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Lebron would average more assists than Melo even if he were playing small forward. He is a better passer than Melo and he is more unselfish. I'm sorry if the only way you can rationlize this in your mind is something as insignificant as Lebron's position. His numbers have been pretty consistent across the board regardless of switching position(which is pretty impressive actually).




No Doubt James would be averaging more assists then Melo if he was playing with Andre Miller as the SF on the nuggets. But maybe 1 to 1.5 more not 3 more. 

I am not saying he is not the much better passer, but the 3 ast avg is largely an element of position and team.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree.
> ...



So your saying that Cleveland has not beaten a good team when Lebron has played a poor game.

A dubious and highly unlikely statement.


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## Ghost (Jun 21, 2002)

Carmelo Anthoney should be the ROY. That's all that needs to be said.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

I just hate the 20-5-5 arguements.

Micheal Jordan has never averaged 1pt, 1 reb, and 3 blocks in a season. Mark Eaton has. Mark Eaton is better then Jordan?

If your going to throw assists into the equation, you are automatically disqualifying about 80% of NBA players, because of their position.

Say Melo was the best SF in the league - not many SF's, even the best average 5 assists. So your still going to use the 20-5-5 arguement?


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> I just hate the 20-5-5 arguements.
> 
> Micheal Jordan has never averaged 1pt, 1 reb, and 3 blocks in a season. Mark Eaton has. Mark Eaton is better then Jordan?
> ...


wow, someone with some sense. where've you been?

look at marion and peja. two of the best small forwards in the game.

carmelo averages more assists than BOTH of them. in less minutes, not to mention.

give me the guy who's season isn't ending in 3 days vs the guy that averages 3 more assists.


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

This is I disagree with.

Scoring/dishing numbers show a balance of beginning/finishing plays. If Bron and Melo both score so well, then you look at other areas of the game. Who can play more positions or who is more effective in a game when one can't buy a basket? Can that player be dominant or at least effective on bad shooting days? 

When people bring LeBron's assists into play, rather than *discrediting* other players, they're simply *crediting* James for an obvious talent of his. LeBron's game transcends positions in the "black and white sense" and lately, he's either double-doubling or nearly triple doubling, thus not being limited by position. It's about versatility. Both are very effective but one is more versatile. That's why LeBron gets my vote.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> I just hate the 20-5-5 arguements.
> 
> Micheal Jordan has never averaged 1pt, 1 reb, and 3 blocks in a season. Mark Eaton has. Mark Eaton is better then Jordan?
> ...


Not many average 5 assists period(actually it's 5.9, so basically 6 assists per game). Let alone SFs. That's why it's a credit to James that as a rookie he could put up such well rounded numbers.

Was Michael Jordan a PG? No. He wasn't. The reason you hate the 20/5/5 arguement is because it's very powerful. Only two others have ever done it as rookies, and they one is the big O the other is the greatest of all-time.

How is that not worthy of Rookie of the Year?


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Not many average 5 assists period(actually it's 5.9, so basically 6 assists per game). Let alone SFs. That's why it's a credit to James that as a rookie he could put up such well rounded numbers.
> ...


if 20-5-5 is so impressive, why wasn't ricky davis an allstar last year?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JuniorNoboa</b>!
> 
> I am not saying he is not the much better passer, but the 3 ast avg is largely an element of position and team.


I don't agree with that. It's like saying that Shaquille O'Neal has such a huge edge on Stephon Marbury in rebounding due to position. Centers haul down more rebounds. Nature of the position, right? Marbury just doesn't "get" to play center.

That's putting the cart before the horse. Centers don't magically rebound more. Bigger, stronger rebounders play center. That's why centers average more rebounds.

Similarly, point guards don't magically average more assists. Better passers and players with the best court vision play point guard. That's why they average more assists.

Anthony didn't play small forward, while James played point guard, due to random chance. Anthony *can't* play point guard. James can. That's why he played point guard. His position was due to an ability he has that Anthony does not.

And the fact that the Nuggets have Andre Miller is not a good argument for why Anthony does not play point guard. Anthony would not play point guard whether or not Miller was there and Vandeweghe *acquired* Miller knowing that he'd have Anthony. So, his picking up Miller was an obvious comment on the fact that Anthony would not in any way fill a point guard hole.

So, I find the argument that James' major assists edge is largely just a result of him "getting" to play the position to be rather unconvincing. Just as would be the argument that O'Neal's major rebounding edge over Marbury is largely just a result of O'Neal "getting" to play center.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't agree with that. It's like saying that Shaquille O'Neal has such a huge edge on Stephon Marbury in rebounding due to position. Centers haul down more rebounds. Nature of the position, right? Marbury just doesn't "get" to play center.
> ...


is it just my imagination, or did the cavs not just acquire jeff mcinnis to fill a point guard hole?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> is it just my imagination, or did the cavs not just acquire jeff mcinnis to fill a point guard hole?


Well, I thought this was a discussion of the time when James was playing point guard, since people were saying "his assists come from his position."

The time after he was moved off the ball clearly is irrelevant to that argument, so I wasn't discussing that.

And his assists really didn't fall off much after he moved from point guard, making that "positional" argument even weaker.

Incidentally, I think they acquired McInnis because they wanted more pass-oriented players to compliment their star, and they needed more scoring from James to compete, so they didn't want him burdened by having to run the offense. I think his time at point guard showed he could run the point awfully effectively, and he still did a lot of it at shooting guard / small forward.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

In last night's win against Milwaukee, McInnis played 42 minutes but James still had 9 assists. (2 more than McInnis.)

There's no way to explain away his playmaking ability.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

dave aldridge's new column : http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=aldridge_david&id=1781249



> My choice: LeBron James, Cavaliers. Last season, I voted for Yao Ming over Amare Stoudamire, even though the Suns made the playoffs and the Rockets didn't. The reason was that Yao had so much more to deal with than Stoudamire -- more expectations, more hype, more attention, more pressure -- and that he had a good season after all that was amazing. So it is again this season. Believe me when I tell you, I really wanted to vote for Carmelo Anthony. I picked Anthony to win the award at the start of the season, and he did nothing to make me regret that choice. He was clutch for the Nugs all year. But James had more on his plate. No one -- not Jordan, not Magic, not Russell or Wilt -- came into the L with more light and heat on him than James, and he responded almost every night. He did better than expected at the point, and when he got back to his natural position, he exploded. Yes, the Cavs came up short in a weaker conference. But it wasn't because of LeBron. He was everything everyone said he would be. And that's amazing.


heh, see? john the cool kid is absolutely right. let's give lebron ROY simply because he "exceeded expectations". that's all i'm hearing from practically every lebron supporter. like john already said, putting your team in the playoffs holds a lot more weight than "exceeding expectations".

also couple that with the fact carmelo was expected to sit on his hands all season. carmelo obviously did not exceed expectations. denver drafted him because he wasn't expected to contribute much. man, what a horrible player carmelo is, what with his lack of expectation transcendence. :|

yup, lebron is the clear ROY. way to exceed those expectations dude. perhaps next time you'll exceed your team's expectations and put them in the playoffs. i'm sure they'll give you MVP then, because you exceeded expectations, even though KG went ahead and averaged 25 15 and 10. people know KG is MVP-caliber, he did not exceed expectations.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

Well, then you heard it here first. This just in. LeBron's a better player than Carmelo and individually, he accomplished more this season.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> Well, then you heard it here first. This just in. LeBron's a better player than Carmelo and individually speaking, he did more this season.


individually speaking, t-mac had a nice season. he has the scoring title with 28 ppg, averaged 6 boards and 5.5 assists. a very solid season by anyone's standards. why isn't he an MVP candidate? and before you bring up his low FG%, i'd like to point that jermaine o'neal is an MVP candidate (some even have him as #2) PF/C who is shooting 43%.

so why isn't t-mac an MVP candidate?

oh yeah, that whole "taking your team somewhere" deal. i see.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> individually speaking, t-mac had a nice season. he has the scoring title with 28 ppg, averaged 6 boards and 5.5 assists. a very solid season by anyone's standards. why isn't he an MVP candidate? and before you bring up his low FG%, i'd like to point that jermaine o'neal is an MVP candidate (some even have him as #2) PF/C who is shooting 43%.
> 
> so why isn't t-mac an MVP candidate?
> 
> oh yeah, that whole "taking your team somewhere" deal. i see.


That's MVP. This is ROY. Both players improved their teams a lot. But it comes down to individual comparison.

The Magic actually got worse this season. Both the Cavs and the Nuggets got much better. So I don't see the analogy.


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> individually speaking, t-mac had a nice season. he has the scoring title with 28 ppg, averaged 6 boards and 5.5 assists. a very solid season by anyone's standards. why isn't he an MVP candidate? and before you bring up his low FG%, i'd like to point that jermaine o'neal is an MVP candidate (some even have him as #2) PF/C who is shooting 43%.
> ...


Yes that's true, but there is a difference between J'Neal taking his team to the top of the league, and T-Mac taking his to the bottom of the league. 

Melo simply had more help, which is why he got into the playoffs. Is he playing exceptionally well? Yes, but so is LeBron. But stick each on the others teams, I think we get the same results.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

you both made good points. i'll concede that.

the thing is, melo supporters are willing to compromise.

co-ROY. it makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

yet, from what i've seen, most lebron supporters seem INSULTED at the fact that carmelo should even share ROY with lebron, much less win the whole thing.

i find that very sad.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> yet, from what i've seen, most lebron supporters seem INSULTED at the fact that carmelo should even share ROY with lebron, much less win the whole thing.
> 
> i find that very sad.


Co-ROY would be fine with me if it would satisfy everyone. If LeBron wins it or he doesn't, either way people are going to use it against him for years.

The reason I probably seem INSULTED is that Carmelo's supporters are always insulting me and anyone else around here who likes LeBron.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> if 20-5-5 is so impressive, why wasn't ricky davis an allstar last year?


Surely you can figure that one out on your own.

20-5-5 is damn impressive. Repeat. It has only been done by two other guys, Jordan and Robertson.

Ricky Davis did not do it in his rookie year, otherwise he would have won rookie of the year.

As far as DA's rationale for voting. That is valid. He didn't vote for James because he exceeded expectations. He voted for him because he did so much under so much pressure. Make no mistake, Melo didn't have half of the pressure that Lebron had this season. The Spotlight was on Lebron every game this year from summer league to the end. No one outside of a LA Laker has had to deal with anything close to what Lebron delt with this year. That has to count for something.

People talk about Melo playing so well now that the games matter.

For James this year EVERY game mattered. Every game he had to go out again and prove doubters wrong. Every game he had a target on his back. And nearly every night he brought it.

Watch the Celtics and Orlando Cavs games and see the way Pierce and T-Mac went after James every time they played. And the way James didn't give an inch.

T-Mac vs. Lebron was probably the best individual matchup of the year.


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

To say that every game mattered for Lebron James because of the media hype than you give the media too much power. Every game mattered to every pro regardless of what the media speculates about the player.

Becasue Lebron James Got Rich before playing a game that deems him the best rookie or best player in the league which he isnt either. I think those are the kind of expectations that are made up in marketing rooms by middle age white guys trying to make a buck or two for some corporate company.

Lebron James played damn good this year. But not good enough. Lebron James in his entire career has never taken a shot that had any signifgance to his teams success. And untill he does that like all the greats have for the their teams, Michael Jordan (yes as a rookie took his team to the playoffs). Magic Johnson ( remember he played center for his team ?) Larry Bird , (took a struggling celtics team deep in to the playoffs) etc And now Carmelo Anthony is doing it. And has been making the big shots since his High School playing days by beating Lebron James in Every Match Up. By Taking the Syracuse Orangmen to win the National Championship. By playing Lebron James in the Pros and Beating him every time. By Taking his Pro Team in to the Playoffs where you know the stage has the bright lights and where Carmelo will prove his ability for making the big shot even more.

If all you can say is that Lebron James meets my exceptations because good players from the weak pathetic east went at him. Or that Lebron James made his excpectations because his team has a loseing record and didnt make the playoffs. If you say Lebron James made your excpectations because he was able to hold his own. Than you set the bar to low for the supposed "KING". Michael Jordan never got props when he lost. Michael Jordan never got props for living up to the hype and shot. Michael Jordan got props for being a dilligent worker and becoming the greatest player in the game. Remeber Michael Jordan didnt come in to the league deemed the great one like Lebron James has. He made it that way. I think the great players are the ones not with the "kING" tag on their backs when they come in to the league.

Carmelo Anthony deserves rookie of the year is leading Lebron James in Rebounds and In Scoring just in stats its self. If Lebron James wins it will be becasue of the media hype surrounding him before joining the nba. And if he wins it will not be becasue of merit as an individual player and it will not be because of his team play. Their in the east and they stunk it up the last half of season. Thats pathetic loseing teams in that confrence are going to the playoffs.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

I define a top player by how he excels at his position. Versatility, and the ability to play multiple positions are nice, but you only play one position on the floor at any given time, so the ability to play multiple positions is not that important for me (except for bench players)

Can Melo play point guard? No.
Can he play point forward? No.
More importantly does he need to play point forward? No. not with Andre Miller around.
Can he play small forward? Yes.

If you want to argue that the point guard / co - primary ballhandler position is more important then a small forward, then I have no problem with voting for James. But versatility in itself is no reason to judge a player better, when you only have to play one position while on the floor.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

Your point is not bad JuniorNoboa... but, there is also the value of having a diverse skill set while playing one position. LeBron can make point guard style plays while he's playing the 2 or 3. It gives a player more ways that he can affect the game. Even in some of LeBron's worst scoring games he'll have 7 or 8 assists.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Your right Nevus, and James no doubt has a more diverse skill set. But the disadvantage of Melo not having such a vast skill set, is minimized because it is not the most integral part of the position.

Just for the record, while I am defending Melo, I still might tend to vote for Lebron - I just don't think it is very clear cut either way.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

"Carmelo is the best player I've ever played against by far."
- Lebron James


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> "Carmelo is the best player I've ever played against by far."
> - Lebron James


Not that I'm doubting that he said that and perhaps meant that, but do you know when he said that? I'm just curious, because he said that about Baron Davis at one point in the year and then later on he said that about Tracy McGrady following their first meeting.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> Not that I'm doubting that he said that and perhaps meant that, but do you know when he said that? I'm just curious, because he said that about Baron Davis at one point in the year and then later on he said that about Tracy McGrady following their first meeting.


well, it was on carmeloanthony.com

i have no idea when he said it.

however, i doubt lebron thinks t-mac is the best player he's played against. t-mac favors carmelo. he didn't even really give props to lebron after one of their games, just talked about how carmelo is rookie of the year.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> well, it was on carmeloanthony.com
> 
> i have no idea when he said it.
> 
> however, i doubt lebron thinks t-mac is the best player he's played against. t-mac favors carmelo. he didn't even really give props to lebron after one of their games, just talked about how carmelo is rookie of the year.


I know what T-Mac said about Carmelo, but the respect he has for LeBron is obvious... on a couple occasions they've gone at each other like peers. Christmas day being the best example.

Of course, Tracy did give LeBron a really hard foul in the eyes later in that game. So I don't know what the state is between them. But LeBron did say that, that McGrady is the best player he's played against this year, at least at that point.

tpb2 probably remembers better.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Too bad LeBron wasn't on the Nuggets, because he would have been a landslide shoe-in for ROY this season. 

Instead, we have dopes claiming Melo took his team to the playoffs. What utter garbage. Camby, Miller, Nene, and Kiki had more to do with that than Melo.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> My choice: LeBron James, Cavaliers. Last season, I voted for Yao Ming over Amare Stoudamire, even though the Suns made the playoffs and the Rockets didn't. The reason was that Yao had so much more to deal with than Stoudamire -- more expectations, more hype, more attention, more pressure -- and that he had a good season after all that was amazing. So it is again this season. Believe me when I tell you, *I really wanted to vote for Carmelo Anthony*. I picked Anthony to win the award at the start of the season, and he did nothing to make me regret that choice. He was clutch for the Nugs all year. But James had more on his plate. No one -- not Jordan, not Magic, not Russell or Wilt -- came into the L with more light and heat on him than James, and he responded almost every night. He did better than expected at the point, and when he got back to his natural position, he exploded. Yes, the Cavs came up short in a weaker conference. But it wasn't because of LeBron. He was everything everyone said he would be. And that's amazing.


Great find Spriggan. This summarizes the stance I'm dead against. I've seen a lot of reporters use it and it sickens me. Its like saying "Carmelo would be my choice if Lebron didnt live up to the hype"...and of course, what was that hype created by? The media. Thats why the hype could win Lebron the ROY. I have no problem with Lebron getting hyped, he deserves it, it just bothers me a lot when a player starts getting awards based on how well they respond to that hype. Not every player had a chance to be hyped, which means its not an even playing field.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Great find Spriggan. This summarizes the stance I'm dead against. I've seen a lot of reporters use it and it sickens me. Its like saying "Carmelo would be my choice if Lebron didnt live up to the hype"...and of course, what was that hype created by? The media. Thats why the hype could win Lebron the ROY. I have no problem with Lebron getting hyped, he deserves it, it just bothers me a lot when a player starts getting awards based on how well they respond to that hype. Not every player had a chance to be hyped, which means its not an even playing field.


You're not wrong John CK. I see what you're saying.

Basically what happened this season was the media created an exceptionally large challenge for him, and now that he's passed with flying colors, they want to reward him. There's no denying that has gone on. 

Carmelo didn't have the same pressure and therefore he didn't have the same opportunity to thrive under pressure. It probably isn't fair in that sense.

I guess all I can say is that LeBron created the whole thing in the beginning just by being so good. In a sense it's a challenge that he created for himself... being so good in High School, some might think he peaked early or that he couldn't top himself in the league.

Whether or not you like all that, and I'm sure you don't, there are plenty of solid basketball reasons to like him. He's an outstanding player for sure. I sincerely do think he's made a bigger impact around the league than Carmelo, a bigger impact on other players and on coaches. Regardless of all the hype I just think he deserves to win.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Too bad LeBron wasn't on the Nuggets, because he would have been a landslide shoe-in for ROY this season.
> 
> Instead, we have dopes claiming Melo took his team to the playoffs. What utter garbage. Camby, Miller, Nene, and Kiki had more to do with that than Melo.


wow, did you really just say nene had more to do with the nuggets going to the playoffs than carmelo? nene? nene is half the player boozer is.

marcus camby? mister black hole on offense? andre miller? probably the most inconsistent starting PG in the league.

kiki? are you joking? keep this to people who actually contribute on the basketball court, please.

were you grouping them all, and saying that altogether they have more to do with the nuggets success than carmelo?

in that case i'd have to say that boozer/Z/mcinnis (after his inception) have more to do with the cavs getting to 30 wins than lebron.

ridiculous?

i think so too.


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

> Too bad LeBron wasn't on the Nuggets, because he would have been a landslide shoe-in for ROY this season.





> Instead, we have dopes claiming Melo took his team to the playoffs. What utter garbage. Camby, Miller, Nene, and Kiki had more to do with that than Melo.


Umm... dopes ?

Remember Where these players were before they played with Carmelo Anthony.

Andre Miller was hooping it up with the LA Clippers. I don't recall him taking them to the Playoffs.

Marcus Camby was on The Denver Nuggets Last year and didnt do much to help that miserable 17 win season.

Nene was alson on the Nuggets and again I don't recall him taking the Nuggets past 17 wins.

Lets take a look at the stats at your so called players that made the difference.

Andre Miller - 2003-04
Statistics 
PPG 14.9 
RPG 4.50 
APG 6.1 


Marcus Camby - 2003-04
Statistics 
PPG 8.6 
RPG 10.10 
APG 1.8 


Nene - 2003-04
Statistics 
PPG 11.8 
RPG 6.60 
APG 2.2 


And who has really made the difference next! His first season as a rookie turning a franchise around. Amazing!

Carmelo Anthony - 2003-04
Statistics 
PPG 21.1 
RPG 6.10 
APG 2.8


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> You're not wrong John CK. I see what you're saying.
> 
> Basically what happened this season was the media created an exceptionally large challenge for him, and now that he's passed with flying colors, they want to reward him. There's no denying that has gone on.
> ...


I agree, except for the part about Lebron making a bigger impact, but yea theres a lot of solid basketball reasons to vote for Lebron no doubt. Minus everything except impact on the court this year, I think Melo has only a slight edge on Lebron. So I imagine you can understand why I'd be a little thrown off when I see that Lebrons going to win in a landslide.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> wow, did you really just say nene had more to do with the nuggets going to the playoffs than the nuggets? nene? nene is half the player boozer is.
> 
> marcus camby? mister black hole on offense? andre miller? probably the most inconsistent starting PG in the league.
> 
> ...


Here's how I think the two teams are different, see if you agree with me... I think the Cavaliers are the more top-heavy team and the Nuggets are the more balanced team. The Cavs are basically LeBron/Boozer/McInnis and sometimes Ilgauskas at the top, and typically the rest of the roster gives them nothing at all. When they do, it's just gravy. Whereas the Nuggets can get meaningful contributions from more people and don't have to have the same two or three guys scoring 20+ every game to be competitive.

That doesn't necessarily mean that LeBron is more valuable to his team than Carmelo, although I think he is. But the Cavs are not a deep team at all... I thought they were at certain points in the season, but it turned out that Boozer, James, and McInnis were the only reliable players on the roster.

I don't quite think the Nuggets have two players on their roster who had to carry the team as much in each game as much as Boozer and James did this season. But that's just my opinion and none of this is an argument for LeBron James... I'm just interested in the differences.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Jordan23</b>!
> But not good enough. Lebron James in his entire career has never taken a shot that had any signifgance to his teams success.


I hope you didn't say anything after that. Because I stopped reading. Are you kidding me? Do you know what words are coming out of your keyboard?

No offense...but that's just a really um...challenging perspective for me to embrace...


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

> I hope you didn't say anything after that. Because I stopped reading. Are you kidding me? Do you know what words are coming out of your keyboard?


I looked back at his High School Career. And I didnt come across any big shots. All I came across was dunks on kids half his size. By the way when Carmelo Played Lebron be it High School or the Pros Carmelo won every single game.

Untill that streak ends. And untill Lebron James takes a shot with preassure that has impact on the future of his team. Than Lebron James will just be a huge Hype machine to me. And David Aldridge from Sportscenter who says Lebron was able to match his hype like no other player in History. Well DUH! Jordan Bird and Magic etc Came In To the League almost 20 years ago. I guess David hasnt noticed a shift in culture since than about media and hype.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> Here's how I think the two teams are different, see if you agree with me... I think the Cavaliers are the more top-heavy team and the Nuggets are the more balanced team. The Cavs are basically LeBron/Boozer/McInnis and sometimes Ilgauskas at the top, and typically the rest of the roster gives them nothing at all. When they do, it's just gravy. Whereas the Nuggets can get meaningful contributions from more people and don't have to have the same two or three guys scoring 20+ every game to be competitive.
> ...


i agree with that. even though i'm a huge carmelo fan, i'd actually rather see them co-ROTY.

first off, they're both so good they HAVE to win some type of award. no two rookies that young have ever made nearly as big an impact.

secondly, it would make a great story and a perfect way to keep building up their rivalry. i think someone's already mentioned this.

thirdly, nobody would really be that mad. i'm sure there are some radical melo and lebron fans out there who absolutely have to have their favorite win. however, this'll die down eventually, and they'll come to accept that they're both great players and equally deserving of the award.

i still would definitely not like seeing lebron win it solo, though.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> thirdly, nobody would really be that mad. i'm sure there are some radical melo and lebron fans out there who absolutely have to have their favorite win. however, this'll die down eventually, and they'll come to accept that they're both great players and equally deserving of the award.


Yeah, I'm starting to just wish they'd both win it so everyone could get over it and we wouldn't have to hear about it either way all the time for the next few years. Unfortunately the voters have to pick one of them, so the odds of a tie are not good. I just hope that whoever wins, people can be civil about it.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Jordan23</b>!
> 
> 
> I looked back at his High School Career. And I didnt come across any big shots. All I came across was dunks on kids half his size. By the way when Carmelo Played Lebron be it High School or the Pros Carmelo won every single game.
> ...


Fine. This is not that hard. Lebron's dunk to beat New Jersey in his 40+ point game. That wasn't just a huge shot it was a huge play. Because he got the steal and did it. And then right after he sealed the deal racing down off of a rebound and getting in another dunk.


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

> Fine. This is not that hard. Lebron's dunk to beat New Jersey in his 40+ point game. That wasn't just a huge shot it was a huge play. Because he got the steal and did it. And then right after he sealed the deal racing down off of a rebound and getting in another dunk.


No no you have misunderstood me. When I say BIG SHOT or BIG PLAY etc I'm talking about furthering along your team. End of the game shots are nice but are Money and Mean something when your team is faceing playoff elimination. Faceing A chance to win a National Championship in College like Carmelo.

Being in the Playoffs and making the shot when it matters most. Regular season is fine but what people remember isnt Jordan dunking and beating a team. They Remember Jordan Knocking the Cavs out when it counted in the PLAYOFFS. They Remember Jordan Knocking down the shot in Chicago Against the Jazz to win. And the game winner in Utah for his Sixth Championship.

We remember the greats under the greatest preassure. The Cavs didnt face that this year. When they had the opportunity to get a playoff spot they all sputtered and sank to the bottom in the worst Confrence in the NBA. 

Carmelo Anthony as nice as he has been playing all season didnt make his first clutch NBA shot untill it mattered against the Portland Trailblazers At the end of the quarter giving his team a chance to win in the playoffs. And than coming in over time and taking over. Those are the shots that matter.

Also if you notice it was Michael Jordan at the Denver Nuggets game and I think he has a pretty good idea what a clutch player is all about.

I'm also not saying Lebron isnt capable of these things. But untill he does it than just saying Lebron can do it is a moot point. Plays and Action on the court in crunch time speaks volumes over hype and could of should of would of.

Carmelo is in and Lebron is out.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jordan23</b>!
> 
> Carmelo is in and Lebron is out.


All too true. It's a shame James didn't have a better team, so that we could watch the better player perform in the playoffs.

Instead we get the also-good, but not quite *as* good, Anthony.


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

> Instead we get the also-good, but not quite as good, Anthony.


And you base this statement on what ?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jordan23</b>!
> 
> 
> And you base this statement on what ?


James having the better overall stats. They're essentially dead even in scoring, and James' large edge in assists more than cancels Anthony's small edges in rebounding and shooting percentage.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

I'm glad Carmelo had the better team. That way, we now have the luxury of watching the best rookie in the playoffs instead of having Lebron, whos good, just not *as* good as Anthony.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> James having the better overall stats. They're essentially dead even in scoring, and James' large edge in assists more than cancels Anthony's small edges in rebounding and shooting percentage.


sam cassell has better stats than jason kidd this season.

does anyone really think gollum is the better player?


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

Carmelo Anthony is sure overrated for a guy with such a woefully small amount of hype.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> Carmelo Anthony is sure overrated for a guy with such a woefully small amount of hype.


How is he overrated?


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

carmelo is no more overrated than lebron is.

take that for what it's worth.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

Well, in five years just remember I told you so when he's not the best player in the NBA, and not better than LeBron James at that point.


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

> James having the better overall stats. They're essentially dead even in scoring, and James' large edge in assists more than cancels Anthony's small edges in rebounding and shooting percentage.


If you are going to use the stats use them dont bend them to fit the player you like.

Carmelo Leads in Scoring.

Lebron leads in Assists

Carmelo Leads in Rebounds

Carmelo Leads in Shooting Percentage

Lebron Only leads in one catagory by way of the stats.

Lebron James over all game isnt that much better than Carmelo Anthonys. And Lebron James himself said Carmelo Is the best player he has ever faced. I guess you know more then your man Lebron James.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> Well, in five years just remember I told you so when he's not the best player in the NBA, and not better than LeBron James at that point.


I dont think I ever said Carmelo would be the best player in the NBA. 

I dont like those "in five years remember I told you so" because where will I be able to find you in 5 years? Will either of us remember this post in 5 years? 

Well, in 5 years just remember I told you so when Lebrons not the best player in the NBA, and not better than Carmelo Anthony at that point.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Well, in 5 years just remember I told you so when Lebrons not the best player in the NBA, and not better than Carmelo Anthony at that point.


and Nevus, the point of this is it means about as much to you as yours did to me.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> I dont think I ever said Carmelo would be the best player in the NBA.


You didn't, spriggan9 did.



> Well, in 5 years just remember I told you so when Lebrons not the best player in the NBA, and not better than Carmelo Anthony at that point.


Very clever. KG will be the best player in the league in five years. But people won't be comparing LeBron with Carmelo anymore by then. (Because he will be that much better.)


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> You didn't, spriggan9 did.
> ...


where did i EVER say carmelo would be the best player in the NBA?


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> where did i EVER say carmelo would be the best player in the NBA?


Umm... in the other thread you just started... unless I misunderstood.



> who do you think will be the top 5 players in the NBA in five years?
> 
> i'll say:
> 
> ...


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

> Very clever. KG will be the best player in the league in five years. But people won't be comparing LeBron with Carmelo anymore by then. (Because he will be that much better.)


How do you know ? Now your talking BS. Nobody knows what will go down in five years. I just wish them all the best. And I enjoy the debate about what we do know and thats the facts and this season.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> Umm... in the other thread you just started... unless I misunderstood.


i said he'd be a top 5 player, not the best player in the league.

i wasn't putting them in order.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> Very clever. KG will be the best player in the league in five years. But people won't be comparing LeBron with Carmelo anymore by then. (Because he will be that much better.)


Can you pass me that 8ball you're working with? :grinning:


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> How do you know ? Now your talking BS. Nobody knows what will go down in five years. I just wish them all the best. And I enjoy the debate about what we do know and thats the facts and this season.


How do I know? It's called an opinion. That one is mine.


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> James having the better overall stats. They're essentially dead even in scoring, and James' large edge in assists more than cancels Anthony's small edges in rebounding and shooting percentage.


But you have to admit that James is the focal point of his offense, and was the main ballhandler for a large part of the season. Anthony never had that reponsibility. Statistically, their passing has been similar with Anthony averaging 3.5 assists per bad pass and James averaging 3.6 assists per bad pass. Also, going further with FG%, and using ScoEFF istead, the gap is largened as Anthony is more proficient at getting to the line as well as shooting a better rate. Anthony's ScoEFF is .500, while James's is .480. While I'm at it, I might as well adjust Anthony's numbers as he averaged less minutes than James did. Let's look at the revised numbers. 

James
PPG- 21.0
ScoEFF- .480
RPG- 5.5
APG- 5.9

Anthony
PPG- 22.8
ScoEFF- .500
RPG- 6.6
APG- 3.0

Does 2.9 APG outweigh 1.8 more PPG and 1.1 more RPG? I would doubt it.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jordan23</b>!
> 
> 
> If you are going to use the stats use them dont bend them to fit the player you like.
> ...


That's a completely illogical way to evaluate it. A fraction of a point difference isn't even slightly equivalent to *double* the assists.

All advantages are not equal. If you had the following two players:

Player A: 40 ppg, 6 rpg, 4 apg
Player B: 20 ppg 6.2 rpg, 4.1 apg

By your "logic," Player B is better...after all, he "leads" two categories, while Player A only "leads" one category. But there's no one with even a passing interest in basketball who would take Player B. Therefore, your evaluation logic is poor. The *size* of advantages matter, not just number of advantages.

As I said, James' large lead in assists is more significant that Anthony's nearly non-existant edge in points per game, small edge in rebounding and small edge in shooting percentage, combined.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Jordan23</b>!
> 
> 
> Lebron Only leads in one catagory by way of the stats.


If you exclude Steals and Blocks per game. And Minutes per game.

All 3 of which Lebron leads.

If you're going to take that approach.

Or what Minstrel said...


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> sam cassell has better stats than jason kidd this season.
> ...


Better this season? Quite possibly. Better overall, probably not...because there's a *history* for both players, and Kidd has consistently been better. Therefore, this season is more of a fluke for Casssell than a norm.

That comparison has nothing at all to do with James and Anthony, who have no such NBA histories by which to judge. In their entire NBA histories, so far, James has the edge in performance.


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

> Player A: 40 ppg, 6 rpg, 4 apg


You are using ficticious stats now to compare the stats of 2 real players that we are discussing for the battle of rookie of the year. And yet you say my evalutation isnt logical. At least i dont use fantasy stats to make a point.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> 
> But you have to admit that James is the focal point of his offense, and was the main ballhandler for a large part of the season.


And yet people still want to say Melo is more valuable to his team? You can't have it both ways.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> At least i dont use fantasy stats to make a point.


Or logic.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> And yet people still want to say Melo is more valuable to his team? You can't have it both ways.


being the focal point of an offense isn't the same as being the focal point of a team.


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> Does 2.9 APG outweigh 1.8 more PPG and 1.1 more RPG? I would doubt it.


Well, actually the 2.9 assists brings an extra 5.8 PPG to his team. So yeah I'd say that outweights the 1.8 extra Melo actually puts through the net, and I'll even go as far as to say it negates that extra rebound too.

And Jordan23, your argument was flawed, he pulled up a situation to show you why. Yeah, it was hyperbole, but it got the point across. You can't pick and choose catergories and say "oh, well these are the important ones and Melo is better in them, no matter the margin in any of them." Well, you can, but you'd be wrong.


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> And yet people still want to say Melo is more valuable to his team? You can't have it both ways.


So are all PG's automatically more valuable than other players? After all, they are the ones who handle the ball the most. I think not. Anthony was for the most part a SF during the season. James dabbled between SG and PG, thus a higher assist rate.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jordan23</b>!
> 
> 
> You are using ficticious stats now to compare the stats of 2 real players that we are discussing for the battle of rookie of the year. And yet you say my evalutation isnt logical. At least i dont use fantasy stats to make a point.


Are you trying to be funny?  I was using a hypothetical example to highlight the holes in your logic. It's a standard way to illustrate failures in logic.

Don't blame me just because you did an incredibly weak statistical evaluation of the two players.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> So are all PG's automatically more valuable than other players? After all, they are the ones who handle the ball the most. I think not. Anthony was for the most part a SF during the season. James dabbled between SG and PG, thus a higher assist rate.


He's still averaging 5.5 assists as a SG since the switch.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

20 pages and going, easily the biggest thread in this forum. This has overtaken Kobe/Tmac and TD/KG as the spiciest comparison in the NBA.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> 20 pages and going, easily the biggest thread in this forum. This has overtaken Kobe/Tmac and TD/Duncan as the spiciest comparison in the NBA.


This thread is amazing. Someone should make it into a movie. LeBron vs. Carmelo: The Thread that Wouldn't Go Away.

Both sides of the debate have different people who show up at different times of day and work shifts in the thread. It's amazing.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> 
> So are all PG's automatically more valuable than other players? After all, they are the ones who handle the ball the most. I think not. Anthony was for the most part a SF during the season. James dabbled between SG and PG, thus a higher assist rate.


James' assist rate really didn't fall very much when he was moved off the ball. He was around 6 apg as a point guard and is at 5.8 apg now.

Using position to explain away his assists lead really doesn't wash. He's getting assists as a point guard, he's getting them playing off the ball.

He's simply a far superior play-maker, that's all.


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

> Or logic.


Apparently the leader of the stats isnt logical to you. And that is only half of what my argument for Carmelo Anthony being rookie of the year is based on. Don't try and box me in your narrow minded views.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> 
> Does 2.9 APG outweigh 1.8 more PPG and 1.1 more RPG? I would doubt it.


At the very least, it cancels it. 1.8 + 1.1 is 2.9. And that insanely simplistic comparison *undervalues* James, since any system that weights statistics invariably gives an assist or rebound more weight than a point. So a straight additive comparison, as I did, is overvaluing 'Melo's ppg edge.

So, then, when you throw in James' edges in steals and blocks, he still wins the statistical comparison.


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Matt85163</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, actually the 2.9 assists brings an extra 5.8 PPG to his team. So yeah I'd say that outweights the 1.8 extra Melo actually puts through the net, and I'll even go as far as to say it negates that extra rebound too.


Not all assists are converted, and while the actual linear value of assists is controversial, I did maybe misread the numbers a bit. Let's say the 2.9 assists were converted at .460, which is more than .02 higher than the league average. 2.9 x .46= 1.334 x 2= 2.668 pts. Subtract that from Anthony's 1.8 and you get .8 pts. So, in retrospect, I change my opinion. 0.8 points is more valuable than 1.1 rebounds.


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

> And Jordan23, your argument was flawed, he pulled up a situation to show you why. Yeah, it was hyperbole, but it got the point across. You can't pick and choose catergories and say "oh, well these are the important ones and Melo is better in them, no matter the margin in any of them." Well, you can, but you'd be wrong.


The guy didnt only use a ficticious responce. He also used an extreme one. Its not like Lebron James only averages 4pts a game and Carmelo Anthony averages 24 pts a game. Which is what he did make a 20 point spread to try and make his point. Which has no bearing to the debate of Carmelo or Lebron.


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> At the very least, it cancels it. 1.8 + 1.1 is 2.9. And that insanely simplistic comparison *undervalues* James, since any system that weights statistics invariably gives an assist or rebound more weight than a point. So a straight additive comparison, as I did, is overvaluing 'Melo's ppg edge.
> ...


I see how assists are more valuable than a point, but are rebounds? I'm surre there is solid reasoning, but my mind is just drawing a blank here.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Not all assists are converted, and while the actual linear value of assists is controversial, I did maybe misread the numbers a bit. Let's say the 2.9 assists were converted at .460, which is more than .02 higher than the league average.


I don't understand... you're not saying that not all assists are on made baskets, are you?


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> James' assist rate really didn't fall very much when he was moved off the ball. He was around 6 apg as a point guard and is at 5.8 apg now.
> ...


Hmm, good point, didn't see that. So, we'll just toss positional differences out the window.


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't understand... you're not saying that not all assists are on made baskets, are you?


Wow, I have no idea what my mind was thinking. Just ignore totally my post that Nevus quoted. 

EDIT: This does lead to an interesting debate though. What should the linear weight of an assist be? How much of the made points should be accredited to the player, and how much to the passer?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> 
> I see how assists are more valuable than a point, but are rebounds? I'm surre there is solid reasoning, but my mind is just drawing a blank here.


Well, if rebounds aren't, it only helps James further, since rebounds are one of Anthony's edges.

But most weighting systems seem to give a rebound more weight than a point. Something along the lines of a rebound is worth a posession and a posession is worth more than a point. I don't have the precise numbers to back that up, but I *believe* that's the usual logic.

Rebounds tends to have less weight than an assist, though, since an assist more directly leads to points.


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, if rebounds aren't, it only helps James further, since rebounds are one of Anthony's edges.
> ...


Seems about right. What your take on the weight of an assist? Would it even approach the 50% mark? Is the pass that important, or is most of the skill still on the shooters part.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> 
> Seems about right. What your take on the weight of an assist? Would it even approach the 50% mark? Is the pass that important, or is most of the skill still on the shooters part.


I'd be inclined to give it 50% because while there are assists that are not terribly useful, there are also plenty of assists that truly do set up the shooter. Without hard numbers on how many of each we get, we may as well split the credit.

However, one thought I had, which I haven't thought through totally, so maybe you can tear it apart: Perhaps assists should be given *more* than 50% weight to compensate for those passes that lead to shooting fouls.

In many of those cases, the pass was as valuable as an assist, because it led to a point blank shot that was fouled to prevent as easy hoop, but the assist rules don't give credit for that "scoring pass."

However, I don't know how to generalize that. I think it's safe to say that all play-makers have some amount of those, that go uncredited, so assists should get *some* additional weight to compensate for that (easier than creating a new stat, foul-assists). How much?


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 20 pages and going, easily the biggest thread in this forum. This has overtaken Kobe/Tmac and TD/KG as the spiciest comparison in the NBA.


There was one that was like Drew Gooden vs. Nene that was like 18 pages long, if I recall correctly, but it was just "he jumps higher" "he's polished" over and over again.


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd be inclined to give it 50% because while there are assists that are not terribly useful, there are also plenty of assists that truly do set up the shooter. Without hard numbers on how many of each we get, we may as well split the credit.
> ...


Hmm, interesting points, especially on creating easy foul generated shots. On the 50% weight, it may be right or wrong. It's really difficult to tell. Even if 50% of assists lead to an wide open shot, and the other 50% are essentially worthless, it's difficult to give an assist the entire 50% weight, as even on those open shots, the shooter still needs to impart some skill to make it. One interesting method that we could use, if the stats were available, is to find the FG% of assisted shots vs the FG% on non assisted shots. Then weight it against each other to find how valuable an assist really is. It still doesn't account for the additional free throws that may incur from the assist, but it's the best I can think of. Of course, it's all moot, since to my knowledge, those statistics aren't available anywhere.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Yyzlin</b>!
> 
> Hmm, interesting points, especially on creating easy foul generated shots. On the 50% weight, it may be right or wrong. It's really difficult to tell. Even if 50% of assists lead to an wide open shot, and the other 50% are essentially worthless, it's difficult to give an assist the entire 50% weight, as even on those open shots, the shooter still needs to impart some skill to make it. One interesting method that we could use, if the stats were available, is to find the FG% of assisted shots vs the FG% on non assisted shots. Then weight it against each other to find how valuable an assist really is. It still doesn't account for the additional free throws that may incur from the assist, but it's the best I can think of. Of course, it's all moot, since to my knowledge, those statistics aren't available anywhere.


peja is assisted on 80% of his shots, and shoots a rather high %.


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## Kmasonbx (Apr 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Matt85163</b>!
> 
> 
> There was one that was like Drew Gooden vs. Nene that was like 18 pages long, if I recall correctly, but it was just "he jumps higher" "he's polished" over and over again.


Well this thread has turned into "he has more assists," "his team has more wins" over and over again. This thread needs to come to an end, everybody has said all they can say, nobody is changing their mind. I really hope their isn't a split ROY, although both players deserve it, ROY is an individual award it shouldn't be shared. Imagine if MVP was shared, or the Heisman, there can only be 1 best, you can't have a co-best, to me it cheapens it a little.


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> peja is assisted on 80% of his shots, and shoots a rather high %.


It's still impossible to infer any actual data from that though unless you have statistics for what Peja shot on those unassisted baskets and what he shot on assisted baskets.


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## bleedingorange (Feb 8, 2004)

FYI, from ESPN's Page 2:

Two Words For You:
CO. ROOKIE.

The proof is in the playoffs.

For leading the Nuggets to the postseason (for the first time since '95), Carmelo Anthony deserves to share Rookie of the Year with LeBron.

Is James more talented? Sure: So talented that the Cavs have managed to close their season with a Lottery-securing 3-11 run.

Meanwhile, after a post-All-Star swoon, Carmelo led Denver to a 7-3 record over their last 10 games, in a competitive neck-and-neck-and-neck playoff battle with the Jazz and Blazers.

While Carmelo enjoys a couple noisy playoff games at home, LeBron will be watching his buddy in the playoffs from home.

If voters don't go the "Co-" route, that's not a bad consolation prize for Carmelo.

Like I said earlier, the real prize is making the playoffs. Neither LeBron nor Carmelo care about ROY. Melo will be playing in the postseason, which is better than any league award. Nuff said.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bleedingorange</b>!
> 
> Like I said earlier, the real prize is making the playoffs. Neither LeBron nor Carmelo care about ROY. Melo will be playing in the postseason, which is better than any league award. Nuff said.


Exactly. ROY is not this important. Maybe after Lebron wins it people will realize that.

Seems that's the only way.


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## Kunlun (Jun 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bleedingorange</b>!
> Like I said earlier, the real prize is making the playoffs. Neither LeBron nor Carmelo care about ROY. Melo will be playing in the postseason, which is better than any league award. Nuff said.


I'm sure they both care about the award no matter how much they try to deny it.


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## bleedingorange (Feb 8, 2004)

I'm not saying they don't care about it at all, but I'm sure both players would rather be in the playoffs than win an award, don't you think? I'd find that extremely hard to believe for that not to be the case.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>bleedingorange</b>!
> I'm not saying they don't care about it at all, but I'm sure both players would rather be in the playoffs than win an award, don't you think? I'd find that extremely hard to believe for that not to be the case.


Soo ure saying if ure team just came 8th in the west conference.. you'd prefer that then coming 9th by a game and getting MVP


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

MVP = instant HoF eligibility
RoY = sugarcoated award which doesnt mean much

two totally different things


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## bleedingorange (Feb 8, 2004)

Gimme a break....name me the last MVP who came from a non-playoff team. And even if there was one, don't you really think they'd rather be playing for a title? What a silly statement.


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

*Why Carmelo Anthony Should Be Rookie Of The Year*

I disagree with most of the talking heads such as David Aldridge from ESPN and countless others.

If you read their statements and what to them defines why Lebron James should be ROY misses the big picture to me. I feel like they are to sucked in their own media blitz vaccume over Lebron James......let me explain....

They talk about how Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul Jabar Didnt have to face the media blitz hype and excpectations that Lebron James had to face. This is why I don't agree with that in the slightest...

Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul Jabar are from seperate generations and each of them handly delt with their hype and excpectations just like Lebron James has. If Kareem Abdul Jabar was coming in to the game in 2003 and not in 1969 when he did he would receive the same praise hype and have the same weight and excpectations on his shoulders that Lebron James had. And believe me if anything the League needs now its another great center.

If you are not famililar with Kareem Abdul Jabar here is a little bit on him....

Fifty years ago, when Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor was born in New York, New York, few might have guessed that he would one day be esteemed world wide as a sports legend, scholar and humanitarian. From the concrete courts of 50's Harlem to center court at 6 NBA Championship victories in the 70's and 80's, the story of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar serves as testimony to the fact that odds can be overcome and dreams can be realized. A talented player from youth, his exceptional height (7'ft 2'in/2'm 5'cm) made him a formidable opponent. His finesse and grace only augmented his authority in the center position. Even on the high school level (Power Memorial High School '66), Kareem commanded national attention for his phenomenal talent. From '66 to '69, he attended the University of California at Los Angeles, distinguishing himself on the court and in the classroom. As the top pick in the 1969 NBA draft, Kareem went above and beyond all expectations with the Milwaukee Bucks, leading them to victory in the NBA championship in 1971. Ultimately, his incredible record with the LA Lakers, with whom he played from 1975 until his retirement from the league in 1989, would secure a place for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in basketball history. In addition to his accomplishments and awards in athletics, Kareem has won acclaim as a writer, actor and humanitarian. He has noted that defeating the Celtics in the 1985 NBA Finals stands as the most epiphanic experience of his career. Many of those who have been lucky enough to have met, played with or been otherwise inspired by his talents and altruism, might say that their own brush with the legend known as Kareem Abdul-Jabbar represents such a moment in their own lives. Home for Kareem is Beverly HillS, CA and Hawaii. He has two daughters (Habiba and Sultana) and three sons (Kareem, Amir and Adam). 

I don't think I have to explain to anyone what Micahel Jordan did and meant to the game since he only retired for the last time last year.

The point I'm trying to make is that the reason there was more excepcations and more hype is because our culture our media out lets our country has only gotten more advanced. Now we have 100 channels on regular cable hell when MJ was in the league and I was just a kid I remeber not even having a remote for the tv in our house. Anyway......The Media The Hype The all out Blitz on certin Players is always an all time high during that era , year, generation because things progress and we advance. Our technology is now like no other time. You can watch games talk about your favorite players online. this wasnt even really happening 10 years ago. So to say Lebron James delt with anything any different than any other great player is just a media made up scenerio. Every great player has to perfrom. And kids like Carmelo And Lebron Only know the world as they have lived in it its not like they have had to break any major barriers its not like they know what its like to only be able to listen to the radio to hear your favorite sports teams games. So all this so called Media Expectations on Lebron James isnt anything special or unique. These kids relish the Bright Lights the Cameras The Endorsements the Movie Roles the Celebrity because its been a part of our culture. Its not like this only started since Lebron James got drafted in to the league.

I also wanted to just make some strong points for my man Carmelo Anthony. Since High School Carmelo Anthony Head to Head with Lebron James has beat him.

In College for only one year Carmelo Anthony took his team the Orangemen to win the National Championship. Not many pros can say they did that and did it as a freshman.

In the pros every single match up between Lebron James and Carmelo Anthony Carmelo won EVERY MATCH UP.

Carmelo Anthony helped take a team that only won 17 games last year to win 43 games. Cleveland could only muster up 35 games in the weak eastern confrence where teams with even and loseing records are making the playoffs.

Carmelo Anthony not only was the intergal part of changing his team from a loseing franchise to a winning franchise they are now playing on the biggest stage the NBA PLAYOFFS.

Carmelo Anthony has taken the big shot since his College days to his 3rd to last game against the Trailblazers to keep his team in the playoff hunt by knocking in a shot with less than 10 seconds in the game to go in to over time and to win it. Thats big time basketball when it counts. Carmelo Anthony is a proven winner since his days in high schoo, college, and now the pros. The kid just keeps proving everyone wrong.

Carmelo Anthonys rookie stats speak for themselfs he leads all rookies in scoring bottom line. It doesnt matter if its half a point or 10 points more. Its like winning and loseing the total doesnt matter just getting the win does.

Now Carmelo Anthony is in the playoffs and has a chance to really make his name the marquee rookie win or lose the ROY award. He has a great chance to do this faceing off with the MVP of the league. This is what really excites me about basketball the best against the best when it really matters.

CARMELO ANTHONY IS THE ROOKIE OF THE YEAR!


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> In the pros every single match up between Lebron James and Carmelo Anthony Carmelo won EVERY MATCH UP.


Both of them?


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

it sounds an awful lot like some copy/pasting went on here... :uhoh:


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*wipes a tear away* 

That is five ****ing stars my friend.


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

> it sounds an awful lot like some copy/pasting went on here...


The only thing copied and pasted on here was the detailed information on Kareem Abdul Jabar which in no way detracts from my post.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> The only thing copied and pasted on here was the detailed information on Kareem Abdul Jabar which in no way detracts from my post.


... or adds to it ...


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## patticus (Jan 4, 2004)

yes, argument-wise, all that jordan/kareem stuff is referred to as setting up a straw man.


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

> ... or adds to it ...


Obviously you dont see the parallels that great rookies go through. And apparently you dont comprehend the use of the Michael Jordan and Kareem Abdul Jabar parts in my post. But i'm sure they all make sense to you when used by people to hype up Lebron James.

Anway you are entitled to your opinion but I feel I have a strong argument based on history and the facts.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

nice post... I agree but I think you expounded too much on the hype thing... You made yourself clear though and overkill isn't bad at all..


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Why Carmelo Anthony Should Be Rookie Of The Year*



> Originally posted by <b>Jordan23</b>!
> I also wanted to just make some strong points for my man Carmelo Anthony. Since High School Carmelo Anthony Head to Head with Lebron James has beat him.


Carmelo's Oak Hill team featured eight friggin' D1 prospects. LeBron's team had four (one of them was a football player). Are you telling me these are equal chances for both?



> Originally posted by <b>Jordan23</b>!
> In College for only one year Carmelo Anthony took his team the Orangemen to win the National Championship. Not many pros can say they did that and did it as a freshman.


"Never Nervous" Pervis Ellison took Louisville to a championship in 1985, when he was a freshman. I don't rank him among the best of all-time, tho.



> Originally posted by <b>Jordan23</b>!
> Carmelo Anthony helped take a team that only won 17 games last year to win 43 games. Cleveland could only muster up 35 games in the weak eastern confrence where teams with even and loseing records are making the playoffs.


It's not like Carmelo Anthony was the only addition the Nuggets made in the offseason. They replaced one of the worst backcourts in the history of this league - Lorinza Harrington and Vincent Yarbrough (both got kicked out of the league, playing in Italy and Ukraine now, respektively) - with Andre Miller and Voshon Lenard. The Cavs have no three-point-threat like Lenard in their roster. And they had no playmaker like Miller until the Miles-McInnis-Trade. Again, are you telling me these are equal chances for both?
The Cavs went 20-11 with Jeff McInnis. Where would they be if the Cavs management made that move during the offseason last year?


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## ssmokinjoe (Jul 5, 2003)

Too many pros and cons for either player. 

I say *Co-Rookies-Of-the-Year*.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

The more i think about this matter, the more i tend to agree that Carmelo is the rightfull ROY.

Reasons being:

1- Forget the hype.
Sure, Lebron James was the most hyped high school player ever since Lew Alcindor, and that benefited him greatly (*cough* 100MIL$ Nike contract *cough*), but hype doesn´t play on the court. Players do.
And the ROY award should go to the player (rookie player, that is) that has distinguished himself the most in the season. Hype can´t be a factor on achieving this award, or it would be a travesty.
BTW, about hyped players coming to the NBA? How many NCAA freshmen have lead their team to the NCAA title? Not many, I presume.
Edge: None

2- Forget the age.
So Lebron is one year younger than Carmelo.
So what?
The only difference is that Carmelo had the chance to play one year of College ball. Nothing more, nothing less.
Edge: Lebron, with a slight margin (if the pro game is diffrent from college ball, I concede that the latter is an upgrade from high school ball).

3- Look at the NBA.
The West is the best conference. It is loaded with great teams.
I would say it´s tougher to play in the WC (try going into the paint against Shaq, Duncan, Theo and KG on a nightly basis!). 
Edge: Carmelo

4- Look at Team Success:
Both Carmelo and Lebron are THE MEN in their respective teams.
Denver had a 25 game improvement from the year before, playing in the West; Cleveland won 18 more games in the lame East.
Carmelo and Lebron both deserve the merit and/or the blame for their respective teams success/failure. That´s the burden of being the teams´ star.
EDGE: Carmelo (Denver was the worst team in the West a year ago; 2004- PLAYOFFS!!!).

5- Look at the Rosters:
People say that Denver has the better team, and that injustly inflates Carmelo´s accomplishments.
I get the point, but I don´t agree that much. What I can say is that Denver is better coached: I mean, look at Denver´s roster. A Miller/Lenard/Hilario/Camby starting 4 shouldn´t bring any fear to opponent´s hearts, should it? A starting 5 (and roster, btw) of journeymen/unexperienced players simply shouldn´t have reached the playoffs in the West. Yet…
Cleveland, too, was a terrible team a year ago.
But Boozer is an up-and-coming player. Z is an All-star. They had Ricky Davis who was coming from a terrific year and Miles, who is still regarded as a potential star. Wagner, an explosive scorer, was thought to be in top shape. The chemistry simply wasn´t there. Cavs brass had to blow up the team and adjust it to Lebron. It still didn´t prove enough to make it a winning team.
Better roster? No.
Better coaching and organization? Yes.
EDGE: None. 

6- Player´s games:
Does Lebron appear to be the kind of player that will be a top-5 NBA in a couple of years? Sure. Carmelo? He´ll be an all-star in that span, but doubtfully an All-Nba first (or second) teamer, at least IMHO.
Lebron seems more gifted than Carmelo, with a better all-around game, while Carmelo seems to be the better scorer (although a lot lesser set-up-man).
But potential shouldn´t come into the equation regarding the ROY award. It´s this year that counts, and this year only.
Has Lebron´s individual year been better than Melo´s? I don´t think so.
EDGE: None

Bottom line: Melo led the co-worst team in the league to the playoffs in the West. Although he wasn´t the only reason for Denver´s success, he was the MAIN reason. Lebron showed flashes of brilliance to come, and people often salivated watching him play. But had he the same kind of season? Undeniable not.

Therefore, give the award to Carmelo Anthony. He deserves it.


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## Jmonty580 (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ssmokinjoe</b>!
> Too many pros and cons for either player.
> 
> I say *Co-Rookies-Of-the-Year*.


I agree 100%, they should definetely be Co-ROY.


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## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

Sounds like somebody doesnt like Lebron because some people say *gasp he could be better than michael!


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## wild_style (Feb 26, 2004)

i think co ROY would be a good idea, but if i had to pick one i would go with carmelo.
Lebron came into the league trying to live up to the hype surrounding him, he needed to put up the numbers or he failed, his team has not improved greatly unlike the nuggets which have now gone on to the playoffs in the west.
carmelo seemed to come into the L wanting to win, wanting to play on a team, and just because of the player he is has gone on to lead them and put up the numbers he has.
just my opinion.
im more of a carmelo fan but i like lebron aswell.


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## VinceCarter15 (Oct 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ssmokinjoe</b>!
> Too many pros and cons for either player.
> 
> I say *Co-Rookies-Of-the-Year*.


I agree 100%!


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

It's a long post considering your point is this:
Lebron is overhyped, and Carmelo's team is in the playoffs, therefore give Melo the ROY.

Your stats arguement has already been shown to be what it is...weak.


Forgive me for not being overly swayed.



> Carmelo Anthonys rookie stats speak for themselfs he leads all rookies in scoring bottom line. It doesnt matter if its half a point or 10 points more. Its like winning and loseing the total doesnt matter just getting the win does.


:laugh: I mean really. I can't imagine why this arguement was only given these three sentences at the end of a long long post?:laugh:


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

> I mean really. I can't imagine why this arguement was only given these three sentences at the end of a long long post?


The reason is becasue all the talking heads and people with votes are not using their votes on Lebron James for his stats but for living up to this so called Media Hype Blitz no one else has faced or could face and live up to. Which in my post I articulated why this is a made up scenerio by the media to try and justify their vote. Their votes they had already decided on before Lebron Even played a game in the pros.


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

> Sounds like somebody doesnt like Lebron because some people say *gasp he could be better than michael!


Your assumptions are false. This has nothing to do with Michael Jordan Or Kareem Abdul Jabar pulling rank on Lebron James. I used them to show the parallels great rookies go through.

And the whole Lebron James better than any great player that has won mvps , ROY, Many Championships, Could shoot the ball at 500 for their career, that are legends. Is just that whole media hype as I already mentioned up above. And if you were to even debate Jordans Rookie season to Lebron James. Well Jordan Destroyed Lebrons rookie season and uhhh put his team in the playoffs.


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## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

Ok Jordans team had a better record the previous season( I believe lebrons win percentage increase is better). Jordan also had three years of unc under his belt. He also started in an era where scoring was more more preveland, thus higher scorign averages and better field goal percentages.


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

> Ok Jordans team had a better record the previous season( I believe lebrons win percentage increase is better). Jordan also had three years of unc under his belt. He also started in an era where scoring was more more preveland, thus higher scorign averages and better field goal percentages.


You can't use someone going to college as an excuse for Lebron James. when you decide to go to the NBA you are a Pro. Lebron James could of went to college to but decied not to. 

Also your idea that his scoring was higher because the league was higher in scoring is insane. There were plenty of pros and rookies alike that didnt score the ball at all. The difference from the NBA in the past and the NBA of today people shot the ball better then compared to now.

Jordan burst into the big time with a fabulous first season, earning the NBA Rookie of the Year Award in 1984-85 after averaging 28.2 points per game.

Jordans rookie season stat line.

YEAR TEAM G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG 
84-85 CHI 82 82 38.3 .515 .173 .845 2.00 4.50 6.50 5.9 2.39 .84 3.55 3.50 28.2


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## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

ahh the same old argument from 80's purist. People just simply shot the ball better...ya right


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## Jordan23 (Apr 12, 2004)

> ahh the same old argument from 80's purist. People just simply shot the ball better...ya right


Jordan for his career shot 500 thats not some fluke. And your arguments so far have been baseless.


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

Year - Player - Record
97 - Allen Iverson - 22-60
96 - Damon Stoudamire - 21-61
95 - Grant Hill - 28-54
Jason Kidd - 36-46
94 - Chris Webber - 50-32
93 - Shaq O'Neal - 41-41
92 - Larry Johnson - 31-51
91 - Derrick Coleman - 26-56
90 - David Robinson - 56-26
89 - Mitch Richmond - 43-39
88 - Mark Jackson - 38-44
87 - Chuck Person - 41-41
86 - Patrick Ewing - 23-59
85 - Michael Jordan - 38-44

Take it for what you will...


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jordan23</b>!
> 
> 
> Jordan for his career shot 500 thats not some fluke. And your arguments so far have been baseless.


And Jordan was the best player ever. That argument has no bearing on an entire league.


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