# Good Cartwright article



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/main_story.asp?intID=3755235

It's too soon to tell if Cartwright's no-nonsense approach will translate into team success this season, but the players seem to respect what has been done.

"He's done a great job of making it a competitive camp, making guys try to be their best at all times and not putting up with distractions," said Fred Hoiberg, the longest-tenured Bull at four seasons. "This is the most organized camp I've been in in awhile. He's got a schedule, he's got a plan, and he sticks to it."

...

Cartwright, who has two kids in high school and one in college, just might know what he's doing. 

Gotta love that last quote. Cartwright has to deal with Eddy, Tyson, Jay, and Jamal by day..... and three kids around the same age by night. Go Bill!!




VD


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

I have lots of confidence in BillC, even though he has limited experience as a head coach, and much of that has to do with his character. Didn't BillC confront MJ? I don't remember what the issue was, but if you're willing and able to confront MJ, then I think you can just about handle anybody.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

MJ called him out in front of the team if I recall correctly, and Bill privately told MJ that if he did it again, he would be punished. I forget what exactly MJ was calling Bill out on but if it was legit, then what was the problem?

I am sure someone has the full story.


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## Newguy (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> MJ called him out in front of the team if I recall correctly, and Bill privately told MJ that if he did it again, he would be punished. I forget what exactly MJ was calling Bill out on but if it was legit, then what was the problem?
> 
> I am sure someone has the full story.


My recollection of the story is that MJ was doing his superiority thing by making fun of Bill's free throw technique in front of the team. It was Bill who called MJ to the side and told him if he does it again, his lights will be knocked out.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

I thought he told Jordan that he would break his legs next time he pulled his superiority stuff.

In Phil's book Sacred Hoops it also says that Cartwright was the one who really got to Scottie after the 1.8 seconds incident. Scottie came into the locker room and everyone was silent. He saw Cartwright and Big Bill had tears streaming down his face. He was shocked by what Pippen did. No one had ever seen Bill cry. That's what made Pippen feel the worst. Apparantly Bill took him aside and talked to him about it. 

I read the book a few years ago so this may be a little off but I know Cartwright was instrumental in Pippen's


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

If it was over the free throws, BC must do a lot of threatening. Everyone on my High School team had a BC free throw impersonation. I have a book that has the anecdote in it somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.


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## RealFan (Jun 12, 2002)

I think the Bill Cartwright / MJ conflict arose out of how MJ was passing the ball to Bill in practice. As I recall, MJ would purposefully throw the ball to Cartwright in a manner which made it all but impossible for Cartwright to catch (i.e., down at his knees). MJ would then ridicule Cartwright. After some time, Cartwright PRIVATELY assured MJ that he would break his hands if MJ ever purposefully made Cartwright look like a fool.

After that, they got along just fine. So I agree that Cartwright probably has the ability to command respect from this team.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

That sounds about right except for the part about Jordan doing it purposefully. I think the moral of the story was part of Jordan's understanding that not everyone was as talented as he was. I know there was a story about Jordan saying he would throw it at his head because it would force him to catch it rather than let it nail him in the noggin. That could be an unrelated anecdote.


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## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> That sounds about right except for the part about Jordan doing it purposefully. I think the moral of the story was part of Jordan's understanding that not everyone was as talented as he was


Errr... not quite, BCH, but nice try. 
Your spin on the story is about as wrong as a spin can get.

Jordan was well known in Chicago before the 1st championship run as quite the... well... quite the (insert foul word here). 

Arrogant, Self-Centered, you name it... he was it. He had a LOT of growing up to do back then. And he did (thank god he didn't waste his talent). He grew up, in no small part, to professional, mature guidance by the likes of Bill and Phil Jackson.


His run in with Bill was pretty much this: He was upset that his good friend Oakley had been traded for Cartwright. He was pissed at Krause for not consulting him (as if that was Kruase's duty), and of course at Bill for "replacing" his buddy on the team (as if he had any say in the matter). So he attempted to take out his anger on Bill my mocking his raspy voice and free throw style. Bill, ever the professional, took him aside, one on one, and told him, in no uncertain terms, that his continued behavior would lead to a lenghty stay on the disabled list...

End of Problem. 
Cue Championship Run #1. :wbanana: :rbanana:


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

The understanding did come at some point and throwing the ball at Biill's head was something Jordan did in frustration over Bill's fumbles.

However, like i said, Cartwright physically threatening Jordan accomplished what? It established the fact that Cartwright was known to use his elbows to cause damage and that he was willing to assault Jordan, who at 6'6" was considerably smaller than cartwright.

Of course the physical, "I'll beat you up if you do that again" philosophy is always endearing.

My point is that Jordan eventually learned to respect Cartwright, no doubt, but if Cartwright had to do it by threatening him, I don't think it would have worked. I am sure it had to do with other things as well.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

BCH, Jordan wasn't the good guy in this incident. He wasn't a friend of Cartwright when this happened. How would you like it if you just got traded and someone on your new team is mocking you and making fun of you? Jordan wasn't the "great" guy he is today. He willingly admits that he was immature back then. They also did a story on this on "SportsCentury: Michael Jordan" and all of the Bulls hometown writers commented that Jordan would try to ridicule Cartwright and he wasn't going to take it anymore.


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## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> The understanding did come at some point and throwing the ball at Biill's head was something Jordan did in frustration over Bill's fumbles.
> 
> However, like i said, Cartwright physically threatening Jordan accomplished what? It established the fact that Cartwright was known to use his elbows to cause damage and that he was willing to assault Jordan, who at 6'6" was considerably smaller than cartwright.
> ...



BCH, you have this amazing gift of shining this amazing "I can do no wrong" light on Jordan, but I'll try to spell this out for you as best I can so you can understand.

Jordan was the child, Bill the loving, albeit stern parent. Jordan's constant mouthing off and harrassing & embarrassing of HIS OWN teamates came to a boil and Bill, being the mature one, did not threaten Jordan per se, he just made it clear that the kind of behavior Jordan was exhibiting would not be tolerated. 

I hope this is clear now BCH, If you have any more questions regarding the matter, please feel free to PM me.

Now, let's get back on topic please!!! haha :topic:


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jim Ian</b>!
> Jordan was the child, Bill the loving, albeit stern parent. Jordan's constant mouthing off and harrassing & embarrassing of HIS OWN teamates came to a boil and Bill, being the mature one, did not threaten Jordan per se, he just made it clear that the kind of behavior Jordan was exhibiting would not be tolerated.


No, Bill did threaten Jordan. In fac,t PhilJax made sure that they were always on the same side in scrimmages b/c he did not want BC to hurt MJ.

The relationship b/t Bill and MJ was one of teammates that were each able to forge some trust for each other, not father-child.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Cartwright the stern parent threatening to break the legs of a teammate? What type of family does he run?

You are free to not participate in the conversation, as this pertains to Cartwright and his no-nonsense approach and how he garners respect.

As for Jordan, i think I clearly stated that he had some learning to do, and that he did learn it with Cartwright's help. I think I also clearly stated that it probably had less to do with Cartwright threatening physical abuse and other things Bill had to offer.

How many Bull's fans have tried to shoot a free throw like Cartwright? Were you doing it because you wanted to insult and embarrass him or because you thought it was just a bit funny. I laugh a little at the anecdote because, it shows that cartwright is not the under control guy that he portrays and that he is able to lose it just as much as any other player.


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## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> Cartwright the stern parent threatening to break the legs of a teammate? What type of family does he run?
> 
> You are free to not participate in the conversation, as this pertains to Cartwright and his no-nonsense approach and how he garners respect.
> ...


BCH, do you work for the goverment? Because your spin-doctoring is just downright amazing! You can take a cut-and-dried incident, and somehow cherry-coat it to prove your own points. Simply amazing, you never fail to impress....

That being said, Bill never threatened to break any legs. Bills can be a pretty intimidating guy, don't you think? Would you doubt him if he got you one-on-one and told you to quit acting so immature? Didn't think so....

The way I remember both MJ and Cartwright telling the story (In a championship remembering/history of special) was that it was not a "threat"... simply a "slap in the face"/"wake up call" for Jordan, letting him know that the selfish, immature, cocky persona that scared Pippen, Grant, etc, etc, would not hold water in Big Bills court.

As for shooting free throws like Bill... ok, maybe some people do it. But find me one man who would do it in front of him... mocking all the way....? Anybody? Anybody? Didn't think so....

As for not participating... I'm not sure what you mean...

Well at least we can all agree the end result was favorable... can't we....? :|


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## BamaBull (Jun 24, 2002)

*Hey BCH*



> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> MJ called him out in front of the team if I recall correctly, and Bill privately told MJ that if he did it again, he would be punished. I forget what exactly MJ was calling Bill out on but if it was legit, then what was the problem?
> 
> I am sure someone has the full story.


This once again is a story that can be better understood by those who were there when it happened and knew what each other was thinking when anything was said or done. I think Phil was particularly clever in keeping BC away from MJ.

That jumper was ugly...gotta admit that one!!! Although I am fairly certain Jordan had a difficult time checking his ego at the door....MANY times!:laugh:


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jim Ian</b>!
> 
> BCH, ... You can take a cut-and-dried incident, and somehow cherry-coat it to prove your own points. Simply amazing, you never fail to impress....
> 
> ...


Ok, cracked open the Jordan Rules. I can see why that you don't like it, Jim, as it makes it appear that you are distorting or 'cherry-coating' everything.

BC discoved that MJ told the other starters not to pass the ball to BC in the last 4 mins of the game as MJ did not trust BC with it.

*Bill confronted MJ and said to him,"If I ever hear again that you're telling guys not to pass me the ball you will never play basketball again."*

Call the sherif. Sounds like a threat to me.....

As to why PhilJax always put them on the same side in scrimmages, Bill said, "Phil knows I'll take [MJ] down if I have to."

Great for Bill sticking up to MJ as it speaks to his tough character and helped the team but let's not sugar coat the story or give BC undue credit for mentoring Michael.


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## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> Ok, cracked open the Jordan Rules. I can see why that you don't like it, Jim, as it makes it appear that you are distorting or 'cherry-coating' everything.
> ...



Hmmm.. interesting Johns. You know I don't belive half that book you ALWAY have with you!  I was positive MJ & Bill both desribed the incident slightly differently. Perhaps there was more then one incident.... Or maybe that book is off (as usual, IMO). Either way....

I don't see how you can give Bill props though and not admit he played at least a small part in changing Jordan from a Pre-Madonna to a Finals Champion.... But hey, that's your right.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

I never said that Jordan was in the right for ridiculing Cartwright. I never said it was not mean spirited. I just said that Cartwright threatened him and that I doubt that led to the level of respect that is obvious between the two. Do you know of anyone that gets true respect by making physical threats? I doubt it.

The fact is that Cartwright did threaten MJ. Kudos to him, but I don't see what the great feat was, Cartwright is physically bigger and stronger. 

I don't see how I am defending Jordan. I am not. I am just making a critique about BC's methods to gain respect as someone else has described. I obviouly said BC did gain the respect, but question whether it had anything to do with BC's threats.

johnston797 probably has the correct anecdote. That makes me question BC more than the FT incident if that is what it really was about.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> Cartwright the stern parent threatening to break the legs of a teammate? What type of family does he run?</quote>
> That type of comment is unwarranted. From everything I have read, Bill Cartwright is one of the classiest people to ever wear an NBA uniform.
> 
> ...


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## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

Perhaps it was not the threat, per se.... 

Perhaps Big Bill was the first person to question Jordan & his "authority"....

And THAT led to the respect.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

So it was not a threat to break his legs but a threat to end his career. Real Classy.

I like BC but I do not condone how he handled that situation.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Validity of the Jordan Rules*

Well, both Jordan or Krause were furious about the Jordan Rules when it came out. I would say this is a good sign that the real story came out. 

This BC incident was one of several key incidents that was discussed a lot when this book came out. I don't recall any of the parties disputing this issue.


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## Newguy (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> So it was not a threat to break his legs but a threat to end his career. Real Classy.
> 
> I like BC but I do not condone how he handled that situation.


Perhaps BCH, Bill should have taken the high road as you suggest:

"If I ever hear again that you're telling guys to not pass me the ball," Cartwright continued, "I am going to march right upstairs, this instant, and tell the general manager. Now what's it going to be, Mister?!"


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Or he could have just talked to Jordan about it without the threat?


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## Newguy (Jul 16, 2002)

Apparently you've never had to stand up to a bully.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Who exactly was the bully in that situation?


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## Jim Ian (Aug 6, 2002)

Jordan.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

To address this whole Jordan = Bully idea....

Was Jordan a jerk to some of his teammates? You bet. Arguably the only player MJ really respected as a teammate and friend was Pippen (though I'm sure they had run-ins from time to time). I have no problem with this. Plain and simple, Jordan's ultra competitive nature and will to win made those around him better. In the course of 6 rings, of course he rubbed some 'role players' the wrong way. But he made them better.

Name me one player who had a better career AFTER leaving the championship Bulls than while he was on those respective teams. The difference? Playing with MJ. MJ made Scott Williams, Bison Dele, Luc Longley, Will Perdue, Jason Caffey (the list goes on) look like decent players... many of whom signed for quite a bit more money on other teams. Jordan's nature and will to win won games (and championships), and yes.. sometimes feelings were hurt. But these same scrubs owe a lot to Mr. Jordan, as their value as players increased after a tenure of playing w/ MJ and the Bulls.



VD


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## the_disco_pimp (Jul 25, 2002)

*actually the thingy in question..*

"that his continued behavior would lead to a lenghty stay on the disabled list..."

Yes Cartwright told Jordan that if he ever did that again that he'd have someone break his kneecaps, and that he knows people who could do it for him.

lol


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> To address this whole Jordan = Bully idea....
> 
> Was Jordan a jerk to some of his teammates? You bet. Arguably the only player MJ really respected as a teammate and friend was Pippen (though I'm sure they had run-ins from time to time). I have no problem with this.


*Vin!*

I'm not even sure that that is accurate. I seem to remember reading about Jordan barely tolerating Pippen off the court. I also remember hearing speculation that Jordan's continued fruatration with Pippen was another factor leading to his frequent retirements.....

Rumors, but I'm sure I heard them.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

FYI

Cartwright was a career 77% free throw shooter.

He was also an oustanding player when he wasn't hurt (he did manage to play in 15 seasons).

I would take Cartwright any year of his career over Oakley any year of his. In a flash.

$.02


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