# Andrew Bogut=



## Jwill55gRizZ (Jun 8, 2003)

Strengths: _______ is a Solid athlete who runs of the court well and is an above average leaper ... Post footwork is superb for a player his age and could be the best in college among NBA center prospects ... Has a nice assortment of low post moves when his back is to the basket ... Uncommon for most big men Kaman is capable of finishing around the basket with either hand ... Tough kid who enjoys physical contact in the lane ... For his position he is a very good free throw shooter ... Shows soft touch on his turnaround jumper ... Understands how to utilize the glass on his hook shot in the lane ... Extremely aggressive when it comes to getting position on the blocks ... Does a good job of keeping the ball high after receiving it ... Because of his aggressive play he draws a good number of fouls from his defender ... Decent shot blocker who uses his above average leaping ability and long arms ... Not a bad post passer out to the perimeter even when being constantly double teamed ... Solid rebounder due to his level of athleticism and hustle ... Offensively he shows great shot selection as he doesn't try to stray from his strengths ... 

Sounds like Andrew Bogut interesting..

Player X im comparing him to averaged 22.4 ppg, 12rpg, 1.4 apg, 3.2 bpg, 0.6 spg, 75% ft, .622 fg%

WOW.. crazy numbers eh..

Bogut averaged 20.4 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 2.3 apg, 1.0 spg, 1.9 bpg, 62ft% (which appears to be the only thing that sepeartes their scoring.. if he shot 75 he'd be at around 22 ppg), .620 fg%.. 

Player X was picked in the top 6 in what will go down as one of the best drafts in the history of the NBA. coming out as a Junior after improving himself after an ok sophmore season.. Similarly Andrew Bogut came on strong after an ok freshmen year. Both are 7'0 and player X outweighs Bogut by 13 pounds (242-255)..












Player X is Chris Kaman.. 
For those of you saying that Andrew Bogut is going to be an all-star or that he is going to be a very good player in the league... Be careful...Albeit Kaman is a young player, he has shown very little thus far in his career.. Andrew Bogut would probably go number 6 if you put him in the same draft as Kaman. This is an interesting comparison i felt..


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Yeah, it's weird I actually thought Bogut had about #5 talent when I saw him earlier in the year. I think he's ahead of Kamen comming out of college and the fact that he's probably 3 years younger really helps him. In the 03 draft I say, wow actually he'd go #6 to the Clips. He doesn't get taken ahead of Bron, Darko, Melo, Bosh, or Wade. MAYBE ahead of Bosh, I could see the Raptors taking Bogut at 4, but I think he would go exactly where Kamen went, but also remember that had to have been the strongest, most top heavy draft in the last 25 years. I mean, those 5 guys at some point could be the entire NBA First Team. In 7 years I don't think anyone would blink if the best 5 players in the NBA at their positions were Wade, Bron, Melo, Bosh, and Darko.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Wade wasn't anything like the player he is now in college, and Bogut might have been taken over Bosh.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

I think a lot of you are overrating Bogut based on the weakness of this years draft in terms of "elite" talent, and the fact that he dominated against what was supposedly weak competition.

I don't see his upside as being great, it'll be good... but I wouldn't be surprised if this guy turned out to be a 15/10 guy in the NBA at best... nothing more. Similar to what I think Kaman's potential will take him.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Andrew Bogut = Luc Longley.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

mediocre man said:


> Andrew Bogut = Luc Longley.


What...is it because they are both white, or because they both are from the same country? Which one is it?


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Same country. Bogut won't be that good..... if we're judging guys purely on Championships that is.

No one thought Wade would be this good this fast, but I think the Heat were 100% sold on him and put up a HUGE smoke screen with Lampe. I mean, EVERYONE thought Lampe was going 5.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

DHarris34Phan said:


> What...is it because they are both white, or because they both are from the same country? Which one is it?


The fact that they're both white does play a role in the style they play.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> The fact that they're both white does play a role in the style they play.


So Andrew Bogut can't play like a black person, or can't be compared to a black person? Get outta here with that.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Chris Kaman is going to be very good. Let him play healthy. I think the Clippers are very happy with that pick.

Where Bogut is diffrent, IMO, is his overall skill as a basketball player. I don't think Kaman is nearly as smooth or polished. I also think Bogut has much better hands than Kaman. Kaman's hands are a little suspect. But Bogut probably has hands like Brand, Webber, and Duncan.

Also mentally, I see more competitive fire from Bogut, even though Kaman is very fiery in his own right. Kaman is fiery in that "aww shucks, he sure does try hard" whereas Bogut has that "I'm not going to lose to you" fire.

Also it's not as pronounced in their college statistics as it really is because Bogut's teammates had trouble making wideopen layups, but Kaman is nowhere NEAR Bogut as a passer. Bogut is easily the best passing big man in a long while. He's comparable right now to Sabonis with his passing.

It's an interesting idea to indulge though. Kaman and Bogut.

I strongly believe that in 4 years the best two centers in the NBA will be Bogut and Oden. We can only hope they end up in the same conference so we can have the first good center rivalry in a long while(unless you consider Yao vs. Shaq a good center rivalry).


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

DHarris34Phan said:


> So Andrew Bogut can't play like a black person, or can't be compared to a black person? Get outta here with that.


No, he can't be compared to a black player because black players are athletic and Bogut is not.

Kamen is an excellent comparison. But guys like DHarris won't here anything of it because they have a bad case of man love.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Chris Kaman is going to be very good. Let him play healthy. I think the Clippers are very happy with that pick.
> 
> Where Bogut is diffrent, IMO, is his overall skill as a basketball player. I don't think Kaman is nearly as smooth or polished. I also think Bogut has much better hands than Kaman. Kaman's hands are a little suspect. But Bogut probably has hands like Brand, Webber, and Duncan.
> 
> ...


That may be the most biased and worthless post I've read on here to date. Congrats


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## Starbury03 (Aug 12, 2003)

Kaman has alot of skill probably more than Bogut. He just is innconsistent and plays too fast. If he figures things out he will be an all-star.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> That may be the most biased and worthless post I've read on here to date. Congrats


This coming from someone NAMED MarvinWilliams#1in05.
You sir have no right to call out anyone on bias in this forum. Unless maybe it's Marvin Williams Jr. :laugh:

As far as it being worthless, I'm sorry I couldn't just drop a post with pointless name calling like you've decided to do. Some of us just judge worth diffrently.

Your attitude turns me off of Williams more than anything. It's hard to even indulge arguements about the guy when someone like you is just chudding out negativity by the minute. But hey, that's your thing. All I'm saying is, your screenname is going to look really dumb after the Bucks get done picking.

Here's an idea, build your guy up. Don't tear the other guy down. Unless you don't think you can build him up enough. When I talk about MW and AB, I talk more about Bogut's positive qualities than I do about any problems with Williams game. I mean, they are both going to be good enough players. Neither one of them is going to be a bust.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Starbury03 said:


> Kaman has alot of skill probably more than Bogut. He just is innconsistent and plays too fast. If he figures things out he will be an all-star.


Yeah Kaman is going to be a player once he slows down a little bit.
Kaman shoots a hole in the theory that white centers play one way, while black centers another. I'll take Kaman in a foot race over Brendon Haywood any day of the week, and twice on sundays. Kaman is also more skilled than Haywood, and not nearly as soft.

This is all another problem with comparing Bogut to Kaman, because Kaman really hasn't gotten to play enough to really say what that means for Bogut to be compared to him. For all most of you know, Kaman could end up better than Yao. The Clips are REAAALLY high on this guy, and for good reason.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

From what I've seen of him in the NBA, I think Kamen is a lot more athletic. I wouldn't have known it because of his role in college, but I think I saw him playing some 4 in the NBA (which was weird), or at least playing LIKE a 4. He also has confidence in his game and jumpshot, so he can stretch d's with a shot, but I won't consider it a GREAT J, probably right along the same lines as Bogut. Not on the level of your typical euro, but solid for a legit 7 footer.

I think Kamen is a decent player and all, but I think Bogut would have gone over him, but MAN there would have been some intense private workouts against each other. Monday Bogut v. Kamen for the Bucks, Tuesday for the Heat, Wednesday for the Bulls. I mean, MAN! Just every day playing for hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of draft position. Like the Lincoln - Douglas debates except with white centers playing basketball.

Oh, and I LOVE racial prejudices when it comes to player scouting. And if you think you appal that kind of prejudices you better adore Robert Swift, because that guy is the epitome of why you should use stereotypes to a certain extent to make your draft pick. Hmmm, Swift or Jefferson, Swift or Jefferson... Well, Swift is 7 feet and we don't want to pass that up just because he's white and look racist. GREAT pick. And generally white guys over 6'10 should just fall out of the top 10 with no questions asked. New league policy, white guys over 6'10'' (unless they're foreign) can't be drafted in the top 10, I think in the long run it will help more teams than it will hurt. Kamen was an exception to the rule though I'll admit, definitely not in the Curtis Borchardt group.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> This coming from someone NAMED MarvinWilliams#1in05.
> You sir have no right to call out anyone on bias in this forum. Unless maybe it's Marvin Williams Jr. :laugh:
> 
> As far as it being worthless, I'm sorry I couldn't just drop a post with pointless name calling like you've decided to do. Some of us just judge worth diffrently.
> ...


The screenname is for the best player in the draft. I'm really hoping MW doesn't go to Milwaukee because I'd like to see him go to a place where he can win in the near future, and thats not gonna happen in Milwaukke once Redd leaves.

You've turned me off to Bogut as well so I guess were equal on that. Saying that a white center will be one of the best players in the league is one of the funniest things I've ever heard.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Well to be honest, he's got a much better chance to win in Milwaukee than he does in Charlotte, Atlanta, or New Orleans, but your point about our situation in a different thread was well taken. I don't think Redd is going to pull a Boozer, but we aren't exactly 1 or 2 pieces away from contending. And certainly not 1 rookie away.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Nimreitz said:


> Oh, and I LOVE racial prejudices when it comes to player scouting. And if you think you appal that kind of prejudices you better adore Robert Swift, because that guy is the epitome of why you should use stereotypes to a certain extent to make your draft pick. Hmmm, Swift or Jefferson, Swift or Jefferson... Well, Swift is 7 feet and we don't want to pass that up just because he's white and look racist. GREAT pick. And generally white guys over 6'10 should just fall out of the top 10 with no questions asked. New league policy, white guys over 6'10'' (unless they're foreign) can't be drafted in the top 10, I think in the long run it will help more teams than it will hurt. Kamen was an exception to the rule though I'll admit, definitely not in the Curtis Borchardt group.


That's retarded. You haven't even seen Swift play yet. The Sonics didn't need a 4, they needed a 5. And Swift is going to be a damn fine one. What I saw of him from high school, he dunks everything he gets around the basket. He has a ferocity to his game, that obviously he didn't get a chance to show this year. But the Sonics are fully planning on using him down the road.

And Bogut is foriegn so your rule doesn't have anything to do with him I guess.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> The screenname is for the best player in the draft.


Haha. Hardly. Maybe the most potential. But there are certainly guys who are better than him right now, and I'm not talking just about Bogut. He's not getting drafted number 2 because he is the best player in the draft, he's getting drafted number 2 on mostly his potential.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> That's retarded. You haven't even seen Swift play yet. The Sonics didn't need a 4, they needed a 5. And Swift is going to be a damn fine one. What I saw of him from high school, he dunks everything he gets around the basket. He has a ferocity to his game, that obviously he didn't get a chance to show this year. But the Sonics are fully planning on using him down the road.
> 
> And Bogut is foriegn so your rule doesn't have anything to do with him I guess.


Is there any white center you dont think will be a damn good center? Kaman, Swift, Bogut? Any others? White centers suck, when have they ever been allstar players or HOF guys in recent memory? They are servicable, thats it, not great or even that good.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Haha. Hardly. Maybe the most potential. But there are certainly guys who are better than him right now, and I'm not talking just abotu Bogut. He's not getting drafted number 2 because he is the best player in the draft, he's getting drafted number 2 on mostly his potential.


As did Amare, KG, Kobe and countless others. Potential is more important than worthless college numbers and awards that hardly equate to success on the next level.


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

You don't think a guy who was a *SECOND YEAR/20 year old* college player, and able to best a whole slate of seniors and juniors with staggeringly better supporting casts for basically every award in college basketball, doesn't have potential? The guy adjusted to college basketball after clearly a pathetic 12/10 season as a freshmen, and then took over. If Marvin Williams did that he would be hailed as the second coming.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Bill Walton and Kevin McHale. When ever I bring up racial prejudices for white centers I get those thrown in my face. I mean, I'm half joking, but at the same time not really... it's weird. No Bogut does not apply, I thought that was obvious when I threw in the foreign clause. The foreign clause got thrown in after Gasol and Dirk amongst others have succeeded. American Born White centers though, it's rough.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

Greg Ostertag! said:


> You don't think a guy who was a *SECOND YEAR/20 year old* college player, and able to best a whole slate of seniors and juniors with staggeringly better supporting casts for basically every award in college basketball, doesn't have potential? The guy adjusted to college basketball after clearly a pathetic 12/10 season as a freshmen, and then took over. If Marvin Williams did that he would be hailed as the second coming.


MWC= overinflated numbers, he wouldn't be half as good or highly touted if he played inthe ACC all year.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> Is there any white center you dont think will be a damn good center? Kaman, Swift, Bogut? Any others? White centers suck, when have they ever been allstar players or HOF guys in recent memory? They are servicable, thats it, not great or even that good.


If you'll notice all three of those guys are very young. Your ideas about race and basketball belong in the stone age, because they simply don't apply anymore. It troubles me that someone who is living with such outdated ideas about basketball talent, is such a big fan of Marvin Williams. How can I trust you to give a good analysis of his potential, when you can't even see the future of basketball enough to know that skin color has become irrellevent.

You bring the level of discourse in this forum down.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> The fact that they're both white does play a role in the style they play.


Why do most of the Marvin Williams fans post total garbage?


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

So how do you explain him essentially matching his scoring and rebounding figures, and upping his assists and blocks in the NCAA tournament? Hypnotherapy? Voodoo?


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

Nimreitz said:


> Bill Walton and Kevin McHale. When ever I bring up racial prejudices for white centers I get those thrown in my face. I mean, I'm half joking, but at the same time not really... it's weird. No Bogut does not apply, I thought that was obvious when I threw in the foreign clause. The foreign clause got thrown in after Gasol and Dirk amongst others have succeeded. American Born White centers though, it's rough.


For one, Walton and McHale are not in recent memory. They wer 15+ years ago.

Secondly, Dirk and Pau are PF with much more versatitlity and outside game. They best foreign white center is Big Z.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

Greg Ostertag! said:


> So how do you explain him essentially matching his scoring and rebounding figures, and upping his assists and blocks in the NCAA tournament? Hypnotherapy? Voodoo?


He played like 3 good opponents in the tournament. 3 games is hardly enough to form an opinion on a guy. Play a entire season in the ACC and he'd get worked.


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

Well, Marvin Williams played about 3 games the caliber of Carmelo Anthony's freshmen season, and that was enough to make judgment of him evidently.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> If you'll notice all three of those guys are very young. Your ideas about race and basketball belong in the stone age, because they simply don't apply anymore. It troubles me that someone who is living with such outdated ideas about basketball talent, is such a big fan of Marvin Williams. How can I trust you to give a good analysis of his potential, when you can't even see the future of basketball enough to know that skin color has become irrellevent.
> 
> You bring the level of discourse in this forum down.


Name some centers that are white and are allstars or hall of fame caliber players! You can't! White centers don't succeed, I'm white, I played college ball, and I'm a realist. It's not racism or bringing the level of conversation down, it's the truth, and you can't refute it.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> MWC= overinflated numbers, he wouldn't be half as good or highly touted if he played inthe ACC all year.


You obviously have never seen Bogut play. His strongest skill is his passing. Which means the better the team you put around him, the better he is and the better he makes it.

You should be glad he wasn't in the ACC. Otherwise UNC wouldn't have won the championship if say he went to Duke. And your boy would have stayed for a second year.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> Name some centers that are white and are allstars or hall of fame caliber players! You can't! White centers don't succeed, I'm white, I played college ball, and I'm a realist. It's not racism or bringing the level of conversation down, it's the truth, and you can't refute it.


Brad Miller for one. Zydrunas Illguaskas for two.

How about you name me an all-star black center not named Shaq?
Oh wait. You can't.

Get back in touch with reality.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Brad Miller for one. Zydrunas Illguaskas for two.
> 
> How about you name me an all-star black center not named Shaq?
> Oh wait. You can't.
> ...


Thanks for proving my point. No white centers are going to be considered the best player in the league. They are nothing more than servicable players like Big Z. Bogut will be lucky to become as good as Big Z.

I don't need to name black centers, because soon there will no longer be centers. There will only be hybrids like Amare, thats where the position is going, and thats reality.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> I don't need to name black centers, because soon there will no longer be centers. There will only be hybrids like Amare, thats where the position is going, and thats reality.


No that's not reality. That's the ESPN hype gravy train which you appear to be lapping up like a kitten.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> Thanks for proving my point. No white centers are going to be considered the best player in the league. They are nothing more than servicable players like Big Z. Bogut will be lucky to become as good as Big Z.


You asked for all-stars. Z and Miller were both all-stars.

Z would have been arguably as good as Shaq if he hadn't had the foot injuries. He was a monster when he first came into the league. Bogut is comparable to the pre-injury Z, for sure. Because the pre-injury Z was comparable to Sabonis, which is the archetype for Bogut/Duncan.

Frankly I'm not even sure why I'm bothering arguing this with you. I wrote you off a long time ago.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Well, how about guys in the league that were all-stars? Elden Campbell I believe, Jamal Magloire (could be wrong about those two though, probably am), Zo, Ben Wallace. One's from the generation that just retired include Hakeem, Ewing, and the Admiral, all members of the 50 greatest players I believe. And if you throw in players with versatility to play the 5 then you get into KG, Duncan and Amare. It's not really about race, but it just happens that the 20 most athletic players in the NBA happen to be black. Maybe the top 50? Err on the side of athleticism because you can't teach it. The great ones with the exception of Larry Bird, who is just a complete anomaly, are exceptional athletes. It's a VERY valuable attribute in the NBA and the most athletic players in the league almost always tend to be black, take that however you want.

EDIT: Oh, and athleticism at a position like center or power forward is more valuable than athleticism at point guard for instance, so you'll see more players who aren't exactly great athletes who happen to be elite NBA players at the point now and again whereas at other positions when you need to sky for rebounds and hold you own in the post it is just incredibly rare.


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## AZwildcats4 (Feb 9, 2004)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> He played like 3 good opponents in the tournament. 3 games is hardly enough to form an opinion on a guy. Play a entire season in the ACC and he'd get worked.



He also had 20 points and 10 boards against Arizona in the regular season. And once again, you are ignoring his international track record, where he had success against competition far superior to anything most prospects have ever seen, including your beloved Marvin Williams.


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

Also had 20/10 against Washington.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

This dynamic is really interesting. There are is a nice little sub section who REALLY REALLY like Bogut, but the level heads generally have said "nice player, but..." It'll be interesting to see what type of player he turns out to be, and when he's Brad Miller (all-star a few times, but nothing particularly special) I'll get to throw it right back in your faces. But for now I'll be patient. Same with Darko and his haters.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

The only player in this draft with the chance of being a 
superstar is Chris Paul.Marvin Williams hasn't demonstrated that he'll ever be anything more than a nice
player and neither has Bogut.

Paul on the other hand has proven just about all anyone can prove at the college level while Williams was making a small contribution at UNC.I don't see how anyone can be so in love with Williams based on anything he's done in the real world.You guys seem to have lost all
contact with reality on both of these guys.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> This dynamic is really interesting. There are is a nice little sub section who REALLY REALLY like Bogut, but the level heads generally have said "nice player, but..." It'll be interesting to see what type of player he turns out to be, and when he's Brad Miller (all-star a few times, but nothing particularly special) I'll get to throw it right back in your faces. But for now I'll be patient. Same with Darko and his haters.


If you read my post in the Bucks forum on why the Bucks should draft Bogut, it clearly states why I want Bogut. I am not expecting Bogut to take over the NBA. You can agree or disagree with me, but that is my reasoning.

*LINK*


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Diable said:


> The only player in this draft with the chance of being a
> superstar is Chris Paul.Marvin Williams hasn't demonstrated that he'll ever be anything more than a nice
> player and neither has Bogut.
> 
> ...


Yeah, the only really knock on Paul is his height, and 6 even isn't really that bad for a point. He'll be good, every time I get caught up in the Marv v. Bogut hype I lose sight of Paul, who is just damn good and like you say might be the best player in the draft and it might not even be close.

What a lot of you guys need to realize though is that it's not always about what you have done, but what you will do. Do you realize the level of competition Al Jefferson was playing against last year, it was GARBAGE. D2 ball. And yet he's got a really good chance to be a stud for 15 years. But if you look at his stat line from his rookie year it's not really that impressive, certainly not ROY stuff, in fact it's worse than Marvin Williams (albiet at different levels, but UNC plays the highest competition in the NCAA). Accomplishments are nice for your trophy case, but if I'm a GM I don't care what you did for Utah, or North Carolina, or Lower Marion, I care about what you can do for me.


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## Pure Scorer (Jul 20, 2002)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> Thanks for proving my point. No white centers are going to be considered the best player in the league. They are nothing more than servicable players like Big Z. Bogut will be lucky to become as good as Big Z.
> 
> I don't need to name black centers, because soon there will no longer be centers. There will only be hybrids like Amare, thats where the position is going, and thats reality.



A players skin color doesn't determine anything. People said the same thing about Larry Bird in 1979, white guy, can't keep up with game since it's changing, getting too fast for white players. "All the good players in a few years will be black". John Stockton, same criticism. Steve Nash. Same criticism. Can't keep up with black players. It's bs.

And yes there will be centers. With the huge incoming crop of true centers, the 5 will be the best it has been since hakeem, ewing and robinson were in their prime, if not better. Oden, Bogut, Andriuskivicius, Splitter, Vazquez, Bynum, Petro, Morris, Frye, Boone, Shelden Williams.. 11 first rounders who are true 5's for the most part (vazquez might be the exception) To say that the league is becoming thinner at the 5 might have been a valid comment...10 years ago.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Well I don't know, I think Oden and Bynum are the only guys who will be stars, but there are some solid players in that group for sure. Bogut, Morris, Frye, Boone, and Sheldon (might be more of a 4 in the NBA, Fortson type) are all guys who will be damn good, better than most of the league's centers now. But the Euros are unknown, I wouldn't take 10-1 odds for any of them that they'll be stars in the NBA. Andriskasdajlasdgjask, Splitter, Vazquez (he's more of a role player right?), Petro. I'm just not sold at all. I'll say Splitter is the best in the long run, but only because I've been hearing about this kid for 2 and a half years.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

Race makes a difference in the style/athleticism a player shows.

Black players are generally more athletic... that is why the best white American player in the NBA is umm... Kirk Hinrich? Wally Szczerbiak? Troy Murphy? Brad Miller? Don't get all touchy-touchy and politically correct on me, there is a massive difference in how players play the game based on their race.

How many white players participated in the NBA Dunk competition in years past?


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## Cammo (May 24, 2005)

> Race makes a difference in the style/athleticism a player shows.
> 
> Black players are generally more athletic... that is why the best white American player in the NBA is umm... Kirk Hinrich? Wally Szczerbiak? Troy Murphy? Brad Miller? Don't get all touchy-touchy and politically correct on me, there is a massive difference in how players play the game based on their race.
> 
> How many white players participated in the NBA Dunk competition in years past?


And thats what makes a good player in the NBA isnt it...a guy who can dunk good :clap: Oh yeh, ill gladly trade Dirk for J-Rich because J-Rich can dunk better :eek8:


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

Cammo said:


> And thats what makes a good player in the NBA isnt it...a guy who can dunk good :clap: Oh yeh, ill gladly trade Dirk for J-Rich because J-Rich can dunk better :eek8:


Would you take Dirk over Kobe, LeBron, Wade, KG, etc...?

You took the best non-black player in the league and put him up against a good African American player... very unfair. Athleticism to go along with the mechanics, skills, and other traits that some of these players have is what makes them elite players.

I'm not saying black players are better (though, that's a given), I'm saying that there aren't many or any white players that have the same athleticism and explosiveness as many of the black players.

It's a fact.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> Race makes a difference in the style/athleticism a player shows.
> 
> Black players are generally more athletic... that is why the best white American player in the NBA is umm... Kirk Hinrich? Wally Szczerbiak? Troy Murphy? Brad Miller? Don't get all touchy-touchy and politically correct on me, there is a massive difference in how players play the game based on their race.
> 
> How many white players participated in the NBA Dunk competition in years past?


You make it sound like black players are _taught_ to be more athletic, like Europeans are taught to shoot better. Which is idiotic.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

Rawse said:


> You make it sound like black players are _taught_ to be more athletic, like Europeans are taught to shoot better. Which is idiotic.


No, black players are just better athletically in the NBA.

I never made it seem like they're TAUGHT to be better. Explain where you got the notion that I meant they're taught to be better athletes, as far as I can see it... there was no reason to think that way.

I don't mean to say whites aren't great athletes, and that they can't be better than a black athlete, but in the sport of basketball, especially the NBA the athletes in the molds of the Kobe's, Wade's, etc... are generally more successful.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Athletes in the NBA are more successful than non-athletes. Most of the best athletes in the NBA are black. I'd say probably the top 20 at the very least athletes in the NBA are black, Chris Andersen might be the best white athlete in the league, he's a great athlete, but he's probably not top 20 or maybe even top 50. You can make any connection you want from that fact, that in the NBA almost all of the best athletes are black and that athleticism is one of the most important attributes a professional basketball player can posess, but don't tell me that's it's just purely coincidental. At the very least you have to admit there is a trend. I'm not saying you take a black player over a white player because you assume he's a better athlete based on his skin color, I'm saying 95 times out of 100 the black player just happens to be the better athlete. Once again, you can draw your own conclusions.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> Athletes in the NBA are more successful than non-athletes. Most of the best athletes in the NBA are black. I'd say probably the top 20 at the very least athletes in the NBA are black, Chris Andersen might be the best white athlete in the league, he's a great athlete, but he's probably not top 20 or maybe even top 50. You can make any connection you want from that fact, that in the NBA almost all of the best athletes are black and that athleticism is one of the most important attributes a professional basketball player can posess, but don't tell me that's it's just purely coincidental. At the very least you have to admit there is a trend. I'm not saying you take a black player over a white player because you assume he's a better athlete based on his skin color, I'm saying 95 times out of 100 the black player just happens to be the better athlete. Once again, you can draw your own conclusions.


Also take into account NFL players and other sports, mainly sports like track and field.

Dominated by black athletes, who are superior.

How many white WR and RB's are there in the NFL?


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> Also take into account NFL players and other sports, mainly sports like track and field.
> 
> Dominated by black athletes, who are superior.
> 
> How many white WR and RB's are there in the NFL?


Can we not make this into a black vs. wihte issue. We all know that African American people are generally better athletes than Whites....does this make White people incapable of being successful in athletics? NO!

The fact that Andrew Bogut is white does not deter his chances to become a NBA star.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The black vs. white athlete debate (in basketball) is psychological, not genetic. I'll leave it at that.

I'm the quintessional fundamentally sound player who can shoot, pass and dribble, yet I can't leap for nothing and have marginal quicks. Black guy over here. :wave:


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

DHarris34Phan said:


> Can we not make this into a black vs. wihte issue. We all know that African American people are generally better athletes than Whites....does this make White people incapable of being successful in athletics? NO!
> 
> The fact that Andrew Bogut is white does not deter his chances to become a NBA star.


Indeed, it does not.

But my point from the start was that being a white athlete is a factor. And as a centre, I think it'll hurt him. At best I see him as a 15/10 guy. But that's my personal opinion, it's as good or bad as yours.

I realize you're stoaked that your team got that pick and it will likely be Bogut, but it's unfortunate it had to be this year, because quite honestly Andrew Bogut is not that much better than Tiago Splitter... if at all.

And Splitter may go to Toronto at #7, or another team after 7.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Well, he's certainly better than Splitter is right now by a LOT, and unless you've seen many Tau games I'm not sure if I'm going to take your word on that. What's Splitter's passing like? His hands? How about his post moves. He's had some bad workouts in the past and dropped out of at least 1, but I want to say 2 drafts after not getting a lottery promise.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> Well, he's certainly better than Splitter is right now by a LOT, and unless you've seen many Tau games I'm not sure if I'm going to take your word on that. What's Splitter's passing like? His hands? How about his post moves. He's had some bad workouts in the past and dropped out of at least 1, but I want to say 2 drafts after not getting a lottery promise.


I've seen probably 5 games this season, he's a really good passer and he's got great handle on the ball. His mobility is great for a big man and he's an outstanding shotblocker and really good defensive player.

This is a guy that's been touted as a top 5 pick in 2005 for a couple years now, if not for his buyout that can potentially be a big problem for the NBA team that drafts him, he'd be a top 5 pick. In terms of talent, I think this guy is top 3.

Bogut was an average prospect at the start of this season, a late 1st round pick... then he tore up weak competition and was lucky this years draft is very light at the top.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Nimreitz said:


> Well I don't know, I think Oden and Bynum are the only guys who will be stars, but there are some solid players in that group for sure. Bogut, Morris, Frye, Boone, and Sheldon (might be more of a 4 in the NBA, Fortson type) are all guys who will be damn good, better than most of the league's centers now. But the Euros are unknown, I wouldn't take 10-1 odds for any of them that they'll be stars in the NBA. Andriskasdajlasdgjask, Splitter, Vazquez (he's more of a role player right?), Petro. I'm just not sold at all. I'll say Splitter is the best in the long run, but only because I've been hearing about this kid for 2 and a half years.


Yes but you can add to his list current young centers already doing it in the NBA, like Eddy Curry, Sam Dahlembert, Dwight Howard(Kid looks like David Robinson v.2), Nenad Krstic, Bedrins, and Yao Ming, and you start to get a better and better picture that the NBA center position is primed for a resurgence.

Anyone that thinks the NBA position is phasing out is living in make-believe. Just look at all of the ages of these guys, and you can see that the position is going to come more and more into prominence. This is part of the reason why the Bucks need to have a center. The days where you can get away with starting a guy like Amare at center for 82 games are fast leaving us.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

HKF said:


> The black vs. white athlete debate (in basketball) is psychological, not genetic. I'll leave it at that.
> 
> I'm the quintessional fundamentally sound player who can shoot, pass and dribble, yet I can't leap for nothing and have marginal quicks. Black guy over here. :wave:


Are you Adrian Griffin?
:biggrin:


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> I'm not saying black players are better (though, that's a given), I'm saying that there aren't many or any white players that have the same athleticism and explosiveness as many of the black players.
> 
> It's a fact.


It's not a fact. Most of the newer generation of "white" players(and white is a pretty wide definition, comprising I guess everyone from Larry Bird to Manu Ginobilli) are extremely athletic. Look up Kirk Hinrich's combine numbers. Same with Luke Jackson. For all his lack of athleticism, Steve Nash sure as hell went by Jason Terry every single time he wanted, didn't he?

And you want an athletic big, ever hear of that guy in Utah, Andrei Kirilenko? Compare him against someone of a similiar build, but "black" in Tayshaun Prince, and Kirilenko is more athletic.

Pau Gasol is also athletic for a big man.

In fact, I think if you are looking for an athletic 7 footer, most of the most athletic ones are euros. Zydrunas Illgauskas before he injured his feet was a borishinikov in the post. He at 7-4 was quicker than Shaq on the block.

Look at someone like Sabonis who even at age 40 could still play with Shaq. After multiple injuries to his achilles. One can only imagine the type of player he was in his youth.

And then you have Dirk, who is possibly the most athletic 7 footer ever. It's a toss up as to who is more athletic between him and KG. I expect KG might be a little quicker, and Dirk a little faster.

As far as football speed positions being black--well most of the world plays soccer, not american football. So it's hardly a measure. If you watch soccer, there's plenty of speedy players who are white(Michael Owen, for instance).

It's like HFK said, it's mostly a psychological thing in america. But as the NBA gets more and more internationalized, you'll see that idea exposed for the farce it is.

This whole idea that there are certain genetic superiorities inherent to each race is dangerous thinking. You may have heard of this thing called the holocasut. Kind of used the same sort of thinking.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> I've seen probably 5 games this season, he's a really good passer and he's got great handle on the ball. His mobility is great for a big man and he's an outstanding shotblocker and really good defensive player.
> 
> This is a guy that's been touted as a top 5 pick in 2005 for a couple years now, if not for his buyout that can potentially be a big problem for the NBA team that drafts him, he'd be a top 5 pick. In terms of talent, I think this guy is top 3.
> 
> Bogut was an average prospect at the start of this season, a late 1st round pick... then he tore up weak competition and was lucky this years draft is very light at the top.



I still think at the end of their careers, Verejao is going to be better than Splitter. To me, Verejao and Nene are the two best Brazillians I've seen. And I think Verejao is on his way to being better than Nene. Assuming of course that Larry Brown doesn't order him to the end of the bench, since Larry hates foreign players.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> It's not a fact. Most of the newer generation of "white" players(and white is a pretty wide definition, comprising I guess everyone from Larry Bird to Manu Ginobilli) are extremely athletic.


True, but by white people generally refer to the Anglo-American portion of the white people, Manu, Pau, AK47 aren't refered to as "white" in that respect. Whereas players such as Hinrich, Jackson, Miller, etc... are.



> Look up Kirk Hinrich's combine numbers. Same with Luke Jackson. For all his lack of athleticism, Steve Nash sure as hell went by Jason Terry every single time he wanted, didn't he?


Yes, athletic... that's obvious, very obvious... that is why they are in the NBA. But compare the best white basketball player to the best African American basketball player and there's absolutely no contest.



> And you want an athletic big, ever hear of that guy in Utah, Andrei Kirilenko? Compare him against someone of a similiar build, but "black" in Tayshaun Prince, and Kirilenko is more athletic.


Once again, he's not the "white" I was refering to.



> Pau Gasol is also athletic for a big man.


See Andrei Kirilenko.



> In fact, I think if you are looking for an athletic 7 footer, most of the most athletic ones are euros. Zydrunas Illgauskas before he injured his feet was a borishinikov in the post. He at 7-4 was quicker than Shaq on the block.


Yet again.



> Look at someone like Sabonis who even at age 40 could still play with Shaq. After multiple injuries to his achilles. One can only imagine the type of player he was in his youth.
> 
> And then you have Dirk, who is possibly the most athletic 7 footer ever. It's a toss up as to who is more athletic between him and KG. I expect KG might be a little quicker, and Dirk a little faster.


...



> As far as football speed positions being black--well most of the world plays soccer, not american football. So it's hardly a measure. If you watch soccer, there's plenty of speedy players who are white(Michael Owen, for instance).
> 
> It's like HFK said, it's mostly a psychological thing in america. But as the NBA gets more and more internationalized, you'll see that idea exposed for the farce it is.


My point is that in the sports such as basketball and (American) football, black athletes dominate. Even though white athletes have complete access to both sports and often more access to better coaching and training, yet the black athlete is far superior in both sports. In sports such as soccer, where it's internationally played and a sport that for the most part can be played cheaply, it is more even. Though, even then we have many black players participating for nations that have a very small black population, see France where over 2/3 of their national team consists of players of African descent, but as a nation the entire of France is very much predominantly caucasion.



> This whole idea that there are certain genetic superiorities inherent to each race is dangerous thinking. You may have heard of this thing called the holocasut. Kind of used the same sort of thinking.


Not really.

Hitler's rage started from humiliation when Germany was defeated in WWI, there were then a series of events that led him to believe the Jews were bad, such as him blaming Germany's loss to the Jews inside the country. Then being rejected from a prestigious art school that had many Jews on the committee, etc...

It's not the same, and I don't think it's fair to play the _"Holocaust"_ card.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> I still think at the end of their careers, Verejao is going to be better than Splitter. To me, Verejao and Nene are the two best Brazillians I've seen. And I think Verejao is on his way to being better than Nene. Assuming of course that Larry Brown doesn't order him to the end of the bench, since Larry hates foreign players.


You mean Varejao?

And Larry Brown? What? LB's in Detroit... if he were to move to Cleveland, it would be in the front office, not as the coach. The Cavs are reportedly offering Mike Brown that position.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> You mean Varejao?
> 
> And Larry Brown? What? LB's in Detroit... if he were to move to Cleveland, it would be in the front office, not as the coach. The Cavs are reportedly offering Mike Brown that position.


Go to the NBA general page. ESPN is reporting Brown is taking the Cavs front office over.

And yeah, I meant Varejao. I mistyped.

As far as limiting "white" to angolo-americans, I think that just reitterates what HKF said about it being a mostly mental block. 

The Hitler/Nazism is a fair card to play, because it is a very slippery slope that you are rolling down, when you start talking about the genetic superiorities or inferiorities of a group of people. I really wasn't referring to the historical nuances of Hitler's biography, more the overriding ideology of hatred and bigotry.

When you start saying what people can and can't be based upon the color of the skin, I think you are making a backwards step for humanity as a whole. No matter what context you are putting it in.

I know you've kind of just thrown Kirk Hinrich's name out there like he's just some stereotype of slow white guy--but if you take the time to actually watch him, and you look at his combine scores, he is crazy athletic. VincentVega could give you a more in depth break down. But besides Troy Bell possibly, there was nobody more athletic in his draft year.

I would say Kirk is more athletic than Gilbery Arenas. Watching that Wizards series, where he was running circles around Gilbert on one end, and defending Hughes and Arenas on the other. Kirk is definitely a physical specimen who has more in common with Gary Payton than he does John Stockton.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

You cannot take generalizations and apply it to individuals. If you do it based on race, that defines racism.

The majority of NBA and NFL players at speed/jumping positions are black. This is true.

Therefore a white players is not as good as a black player at running and jumping. The is pre-judging, based on a generalization, and is false logic.

Kirk Hinrich and Chris Kamen, for example, are elite athletes. Kamen is 7', 260 and blew people away at the combines. He outran TJ Ford! He had a 31.5" vertical!

It is no different than 20 years ago, when the prevaling opinion was that blacks didn't have the "tools" to be good NFL quarterbacks. And the proof was, look, there aren't any!

If you looked at the NHL or Olympic swimming, would you think the same thing about the "superiority" of black athletes?

Be careful...


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## Giddensfor3 (Sep 14, 2004)

You think Dirk is more athletic than Garnett and Hinrich is more athletic than Arenas???? :rotf: Arenas and Garnett are both faster and more explosive by a SIGNIFICANT amount. The most athletic "white" guy in the league is easily Ginobili. He has some hops but what makes him so amazing is his agility and body control, which might be the best in the league.


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## kawika (May 7, 2003)

Can't we just say that anyone that thinks there's a direct cause-and-effect relationship between how much melanin one has in their skin and whether one can play basketball has pretty much forfeitted any credibilty they have as a hoops analyst and move on to the next topic? :curse: 

It's one thing to say "based on recent draft history, white, US-born collegians have been disappointing when drafted as top ten picks". It is a far, far different (ignorant, scary, bizarre, eugenics-endorsing, insert your word here) to dismiss a player (or any human in any endevour) _a priori_ on the basis of their skin color.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Exactly why I said this is black vs. white athlete thing is psychological. When you're conditioned to believe you can't compete and you actually believe it, then you're going to fail. 

Keith Van Horn was very athletic as a 21 year old, came into the NBA and looked like a stiff and a puzzy. Psychological man. I know when I played Gauchos as a 14 year old (my first bball experience), those kids treated me like I just came from Beverly Hills (since my coach was also my next-door neighbor and knew I had a jumpshot). They smelled that and tried to destroy me everytime I hooped with them. By the time I was 17, it was different (because I worked on my game), but if you don't believe you'll succeed in basketball, that's where 90% of your success comes from. 

Unless you're just a delusional mofo (in regards to your actual game). I will be shocked if Bogut doesn't do 15/10 as a rookie. Playing 33-37 minutes a night in an offense built like the Kings? I don't think statistics will matter. The number of wins is what does.

I know for a fact that International athletes don't fear American black athletes. White American athletes not so sure.


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## Jwill55gRizZ (Jun 8, 2003)

HKF said:


> Exactly why I said this is black vs. white athlete thing is psychological. When you're conditioned to believe you can't compete and you actually believe it, then you're going to fail.
> 
> Keith Van Horn was very athletic as a 21 year old, came into the NBA and looked like a stiff and a puzzy. Psychological man. I know when I played Gauchos as a 14 year old (my first bball experience), those kids treated me like I just came from Beverly Hills (since my coach was also my next-door neighbor and knew I had a jumpshot). They smelled that and tried to destroy me everytime I hooped with them. By the time I was 17, it was different (because I worked on my game), but if you don't believe you'll succeed in basketball, that's where 90% of your success comes from.
> 
> ...



wow.. was not exactly where i was going with this thread and it seems to be very popular so carry on lol. Andrew Bogut=Chris Kaman ?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Jwill55gRizZ said:


> wow.. was not exactly where i was going with this thread and it seems to be very popular so carry on lol. Andrew Bogut=Chris Kaman ?


Nope. He'll be much better than Kaman (and healthier), because he actually believes he's great (and can get better). He played in college, but he's International and has proven against the best in the world, that he can play.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

HKF said:


> Nope. He'll be much better than Kaman (and healthier), because he actually believes he's great (and can get better). He played in college, but he's International and has proven against the best in the world, that he can play.


That may be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Kaman has the same intensity level as Bogut (both pretty fierce guys), and will end up being the same type of players. You just made that crap up about Bogut knowing he is gonna be great, and if you didn't make it up, please find an article where he conveys the message that he'll be a great NBA player. Stop making up garbage. And remember Dwight Howard = NBA bust cause he's a Christian, right HKF? LMFAO at you!


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

HKF said:


> Nope. He'll be much better than Kaman (and healthier), because he actually believes he's great (and can get better). He played in college, but he's International and has proven against the best in the world, that he can play.


Exactly. Chris Kaman was 22 years old in the draft. Bogut is 20 years old, and has proved over the last 3 years that there is really nothing more to prove on any level of basketball besides the NBA. The fact that he is still developing, and still learning the "American Style" of basketball makes his potential unlimited IMO.


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## kawika (May 7, 2003)

Well, as has been noted, whenever folks are doing those prospect-to-player comparisons (G. Green = McGrady or whatever) the urge to compare 'black' players to 'black' players and 'white' to 'white' appears to be almost irresistible, judging by the fact it's almost universally done that way. (And I'm not saying there are not perfectly valid reasons for doing so. Sometimes.) But whoever it was here that wrote that they see Bogut, more than any other comp, as being the "new Brad Daugherty", wow, I really like that one. At least as an upside and without the career-ending injury. Much moreso than Kaman, Miller, Mihm, Longley, etc. Of course, like all the draftees, until he shows it in the NBA, it's all speculation, but I do think Bogut will be a star.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

DHarris34Phan said:


> Exactly. Chris Kaman was 22 years old in the draft. Bogut is 20 years old, and has proved over the last 3 years that there is really nothing more to prove on any level of basketball besides the NBA. The fact that he is still developing, and still learning the "American Style" of basketball makes his potential unlimited IMO.


I'd like to see him play against real competition for more than 3 NCAA games before I annoint him a star or even a decent NBA player.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> That may be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Kaman has the same intensity level as Bogut (both pretty fierce guys), and will end up being the same type of players. You just made that crap up about Bogut knowing he is gonna be great, and if you didn't make it up, please find an article where he conveys the message that he'll be a great NBA player. Stop making up garbage. And remember Dwight Howard = NBA bust cause he's a Christian, right HKF? LMFAO at you!


Sorry homeboy the jokes on you. I always said Howard would be great. Too bad you're a fool who will be banned soon enough. I've seen smarter people than you go a round with me and lose. :banana:


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

HKF said:


> I always said Howard would be great.


Yeah I'll vouch for this. HKF has pretty much always been on the Howard wagon as far as I knew.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

For the record, I'm in no way a fan of Marvin Williams Jr.

I think he's overrated and has proven NOTHING to go top 2.


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## 2cent (Apr 20, 2003)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> That may be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Kaman has the same intensity level as Bogut (both pretty fierce guys), and will end up being the same type of players. You just made that crap up about Bogut knowing he is gonna be great, and if you didn't make it up, *please find an article where he conveys the message that he'll be a great NBA player*. Stop making up garbage. And remember Dwight Howard = NBA bust cause he's a Christian, right HKF? LMFAO at you!





Bogut plans spree
By Tim Morrissey
May 27, 2005

ANDREW Bogut is planning to spend his first big NBA paycheck on a nice new set of wheels, his first house and a wardrobe makeover.

With Australia's towering 213cm US college basketball star widely tipped to be the No.1 pick at next month's NBA Draft, guaranteeing him $15million over his first three years, money is no object for Bogut. 

American corporations are already lining up to sign the latest Aussie sensation to lucrative sponsorship deals that have the potential to earn Bogut millions off the court. 

"There are a couple of deals that have gone through but a lot of the sponsors want to wait until after the draft to see which team I go to," Bogut said from his Washington DC base. 

"There's Nike, we are still talking to them and there's a couple of sport drinks companies. But I've got some trading card deals done already, so I'm making a little bit of money that way signing cards." 

The 20-year-old Melbourne-born centre is adamant he's not just along for the ride and the multi-millionaire lifestyle that goes with an NBA career.

Bogut doesn't want to be a role player in the mould of Luc Longley, the first Aussie drafted into the NBA as the No.7 pick back in 1991. 

Longley enjoyed a 10-year NBA career with four teams, made millions and won three championships with the Michael Jordan-led Chicago Bulls. 

Yet he was never a star. 



*"I'm going to the NBA with the attitude I'm going to be driving the ride," Bogut. "I want to be the first Australian player to have an impact on a team and be the go-to guy on the team. 
"That's my main goal but I've got to pay my dues for the first two or three years and get the respect of the players around the league." * 

After living on a shoe-string budget supplemented by waiting on tables for $10 an hour during his impressive two-year college stint at the University of Utah, it's not surprising Bogut is looking forward to some of life's little luxuries. 

"I'll get myself a nice car to start with," Bogut said. "Then a nice house or apartment and I think I'll update my wardrobe." 

Bogut is likely to be shopping for property in Milwaukee after the Bucks won the NBA Draft lottery on Wednesday to secure the No.1 pick at the draft being held on June 29 at New York's Madison Square Garden. 

Once he is drafted, Bogut is also going to invest in having his own fulltime personal trainer. 

"I want to make sure my body is ready to handle the workload of playing in the NBA," he added. 

With Bogut's potential career earnings in the NBA projected to surpass $70million he has already decided to help those less fortunate. 

He is in the process of setting up the Andrew Bogut 4 (he wears No.4) to help under privileged children in Australia, Croatia and whichever NBA city he goes to. 

"I will make a lot of money in my lifetime and I won't be able to spend all of it," Bogut. "Basically I don't need that much money." 

Since leaving college behind for the NBA, Bogut's life now is consumed by daily individual workouts on the basketball court punctuated by four long sessions a week in the weight room to add more bulk to his already impressive seven foot frame. 

However, Bogut will not be attending any pre-draft camps designed to showcase the talents of NBA prospects primarily because he has nothing to prove and it guards against the risk of injury. 

After averaging 20.4 ppg and 12.2 rebounds in his second year at Utah, and winning the John R. Wooden award presented to the US college player of the year, Bogut doesn't need an introduction to anyone in the NBA. 

The Daily Telegraph


Im sure this quote indicates the level of belief he has in his ability to compete at the next level.


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## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

Andrew Bogut = Brad Miller


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Chris Kaman is going to be very good. Let him play healthy. I think the Clippers are very happy with that pick.
> 
> Where Bogut is diffrent, IMO, is his overall skill as a basketball player. I don't think Kaman is nearly as smooth or polished. I also think Bogut has much better hands than Kaman. Kaman's hands are a little suspect. But Bogut probably has hands like Brand, Webber, and Duncan.
> 
> ...


I would have repped you on this post, but I just repped you on another. Solid stuff. Bogut's hands and passing are light years ahead of Kaman. BOgut also has a natural sense of the game that the great players have. Not saying he will necessarily be great (though, I think he will be), just that he's got something upstairs that the best players do wrt/ understanding how 10 guys and a ball in motion are going to respond to a situation. He just "gets it." Bogut is the real deal. And he's mean.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> No, he can't be compared to a black player because black players are athletic and Bogut is not.
> 
> Kamen is an excellent comparison. But guys like DHarris won't here anything of it because they have a bad case of man love.


Not alot of point in debating w/ someone who holds this view.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> Athletes in the NBA are more successful than non-athletes.


Please explain Larry Bird's and Magic Johnson's success.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Yes but you can add to his list current young centers already doing it in the NBA, like Eddy Curry, Sam Dahlembert, Dwight Howard(Kid looks like David Robinson v.2), Nenad Krstic, Bedrins, and Yao Ming, and you start to get a better and better picture that the NBA center position is primed for a resurgence.
> 
> Anyone that thinks the NBA position is phasing out is living in make-believe. Just look at all of the ages of these guys, and you can see that the position is going to come more and more into prominence. This is part of the reason why the Bucks need to have a center. The days where you can get away with starting a guy like Amare at center for 82 games are fast leaving us.


Great post againt futuristxen. As long as there are guys who can play the Center position, there will be Centers in this league. Its very simple, great Centers have always and will always dominate the league. The ESPN crowd gets all excited about the regular season and dunks and fancy plays, but when it comes right down to it, every GM knows that you need great big people to win in this league, and that a great Center is worth a great PF and a half.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Please explain Larry Bird's and Magic Johnson's success.


It's not fair for you to take two huge anomalies and use a few isolated exceptions to the rule to completely disprove the general rule. Athletes are more successful basketball players at any level, not just the NBA. In Spain, in Italy, in China, and in Mexico. Generally.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> Not alot of point in debating w/ someone who holds this view.


You really wanna debate that black players aren't naturally better athletes? Of course they are, it's not racism or psychological advantages, it's just plain facts. You don't see as many white guys with 40 inch verts as you do black guys.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> You really wanna debate that black players aren't naturally better athletes? Of course they are, it's not racism or psychological advantages, it's just plain facts. You don't see as many white guys with 40 inch verts as you do black guys.


What part of "Not alot of point in debating w/ someone who holds this view" confused you?

:laugh:


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> You really wanna debate that black players aren't naturally better athletes? Of course they are, it's not racism or psychological advantages, it's just plain facts. You don't see as many white guys with 40 inch verts as you do black guys.


So...because Marvin is black and Bogut is white, this must mean Marvin is the better basketball player, and has to be the pick. 

Is that what you are trying to say? I really want to know.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

DHarris34Phan said:


> So...because Marvin is black and Bogut is white, this must mean Marvin is the better basketball player, and has to be the pick.
> 
> Is that what you are trying to say? I really want to know.


No, it doesn't mean he's better at all. It means he is more athletic which equates to having more potential. If you have two players of equal skill level (not talking Bogut and MW) it only makes sense that you go with the guy with more athleticism/upside.

People are making this assumption that I'm saying tha white guys can't ball. That couldn't be further from the truth. I'm just saying that black guys are naturally better athletes, do you see any white sprinters in the olympics? In the end, all I was trying to get accross is that MW might have a higher upside than Bogut because he truly is an athletic freak, and that coupled with his tremendous shooting ability, might make him appear to have more upside than Bogut.


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## Shabadoo (Feb 12, 2005)

While some of what is being said here can be construed as racist, I think that despite being politically incorrect, Marvin#1 actually has a somewhat cogent point. While it would be hard to conclusively prove either side of the coin, there is considerable ammo for the "white guys can't jump" argument.

In terms of black guys being more athletic generally (in terms of all sports) you are wrong. While black guys have people like Josh Smith or Tim Montgomery, the whiteboys have Lance Armstrong and Michael Phelps for example. Different sports for different folks.

In terms of black guys being better suited to basketball, here you may have a point. While there are good arguments that can be made for the "hunger" of low income African American athletes, pushing themselves above the struggle, there is some evidence that reveals there is something more to it then that. While there are a fair share of athletic white guys like Ginobili or Chris Andersen, I think you'd be hard pressed to suggest that the shear amount of athletic freak black dudes is comparable. Historically, and currently, black guys dominate athleticism I believe more than proportionally to their dominance in NBA population.

But really, when we are comparing a centre to a swingman does that really matter? Centre is by far the weakest position in the NBA, and one where a "solid" athlete can be invaluable. Bogut is more than adequate athletically to get the job done at the next level. His sublime passing skills and all around skillset will help him tremendously. He should hold his own in the barren landscape of NBA centre-dom. You don’t have to be athletic to be the anchor.

Marvin seems incredibly hyped, and based on my limited viewing I have not seen anything to warrant it. While it's naive to suggest that the love-affair with him is unfounded, I have to believe that the NBA is too enamoured with potential. I'm at the stage where I'd rather see an almost guaranteed "very good" player at the NBA's weakest position, than a possibly "elite" player at a saturated position.

While I do think the Tim Duncan comparison is obviously premature, I do think that it reveals the ideal career path for young Humphrey. You can see exactly how a non-elite athlete uses his smarts and instincts to dominate by watching the Suns vs Spurs series. It doesn't take a genius to see that Amare is far more athletic in the traditional sense than Timmy. He jumps higher, he's quicker and his explosiveness is nearly unparalleled at his height. Yet, maybe due to height difference, or maybe due to superior timing, Duncan is just a far better rebounder. Maybe due to height, and maybe due to instincts and timing, Duncan is just a far better defender and shot blocker. Bogut's timing in the post and his footwork on both sides of the floor is Timmy 2. Bogut also exudes leadership. He’s vocal, something that many don’t see from white foreign guys. He’s not a psycho, but he is a vocal leader in the vein of the player that Duncan has developed in to. He loves to win, and has a strong belief in his own abilities. Is this not the blueprint for every great post player in the post apart from the Amare? KG didn’t get this good by jumping- he had to learn from old McHale how to do “the little things”. There is one characteristic that Bogut doesn’t fulfil though. However, we don’t call this a “blackprint”.

I'd like to see Marvin do well, but I have seen nothing to believe that he will. Of course, I have seen nothing that leads me to believe he won't do well. Yes he's big and athletic, but there have been so many of those types of players. I've heard the argument that Roy didn't allow him to shine under a rigid, controlling system. If we're going to account for that, does it make sense to put down Bogues when he has actually shown something? I’ve also heard that he’s a jack of all trades Marion type. Bogut is equally a player that can dominate multiple facets of the game: defence, scoring, passing.

It may seem strange to pick a white guy at number 1, but I think here that it is the right thing to do. The probability of success is much higher here than just comparing potential to proven as was the case last year with Dwight and Okafor. Bogut plays a starved position while Marvin plays the league's most saturated. When we account for the risk factor associated with picking potential, when we account for the relative experience in different leagues that each player has, when we account for the substitutability of other players at the position and when we account for the skillset that each player brings to the table it looks like a no brainer to me.

While I would not be at all surprised to see Marvin as the best player in this class, Bogut must go number one. If this scenario occurs, I doubt that people will feel as though they made a mistake with the first pick. Somehow, even if Marvin is an elite top 5 in the NBA talent, I have no doubt that Bogut will be at least solid- an all star at a vacant position. Of course though, he could become the white Duncan.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> It's not fair for you to take two huge anomalies and use a few isolated exceptions to the rule to completely disprove the general rule. Athletes are more successful basketball players at any level, not just the NBA. In Spain, in Italy, in China, and in Mexico. Generally.


When those two "anomalies" (as you like to call them) are two of the greatest basketball players to ever step on a basketball court, I think its plenty fair. Of course athleticism is a factor, and you have to have a certain level of it to be able to play the game, I mean we are talking about professional sports here, but it is far from the determining factor for success. There are hyper-athletic guys languishing on benches and hanging out on waiver wires all over the league, and that's because success in this league is about what goes on between your ears. When Magic and Bird are two of the greatest players ever to step on the court, when Michael Jordan says his 35 year old self could beat his 25 year old self, when Karl Malone can average 25+ points a game well into his late 30s, when Kareem can play into his 40s, and when a crippled Shaq is still out there making his team better, it goes to show that this game is about a lot more than athleticism. Winning in this league is about having quality size and quality smarts. Bogut has both in excess. Anyone who has watched this kid play, knows he's got something going on between his ears that no more than maybe 2-3 other guys playing Center in this league have. And that's an intrinsic feel for the game. You can't teach that ****, and you need it to win.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> I'd like to see him play against real competition for more than 3 NCAA games before I annoint him a star or even a decent NBA player.


I'd really have liked for you to have seen him at all.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

HongKongFooey!!!

I really liked your posts about psychology, and I think they are very important and misunderstood ideas.

So many great athletes don't succeed, and other do. I agree that deep-seated CONVICTION that you belong is critical to success. But, at each new level, this conviction is threatened, and can be destroyed. Kaman was shocked at how many people could block him, in the NBA, after almost never being blocked in college. Same thing happened to Rafael Araujo. Players have varying degrees of resilience, but if they don't start seeing success at some point - it becomes increasingly hard to re-instill that confidence.

Darko had better hope he finds his Indiana. (JO surivived 4 years and regained his conviction.)


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

The Mad Viking said:


> I'd really have liked for you to have seen him at all.


Epsn fullcourt= me seeing everyone of his games, but that was a very nice attempt at being clever.


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## Cammo (May 24, 2005)

> I'd like to see him play against real competition for more than 3 NCAA games before I annoint him a star or even a decent NBA player.


This from realgm.com



> Did some looking into Bogut's numbers against major conference teams, as well as the NCAA Tournament, since some people argue his stats are inflated because he played in the Mountain West. Here they are:
> 
> @Washington (Pac 10): 23 points, 12 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 blocks, 8-8 FG
> 
> ...


Lose the "oh he didnt play against anybody good" argument, anyone with half a basketball brain has dismissed this weak argument.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

Cammo said:


> This from realgm.com
> 
> 
> 
> Lose the "oh he didnt play against anybody good" argument, anyone with half a basketball brain has dismissed this weak argument.


Washington has no post defender so you can throw that game out. Utep is garbage so they don't count. Colorado is garbage so they don't count. So basically he played against 3-4 good teams like I've been saying. You sure you aren't the one with half a brain?


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## Cammo (May 24, 2005)

As opposed to Marvin's amazing averages of 11 and 5, i think Bogut has done considerably well against all types of competition. The difference between Bogut and Marvin is that Bogut has proved himself and Marvin has not. No sorry, averaging 11 and 5 doesnt count as proving yourself, Im sure plenty of guys in the league have similar averages. At the moment, all that Marvin is being rated on is "potential" and over-generated hype, something that can be infinitely measured on any player.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

Cammo said:


> As opposed to Marvin's amazing averages of 11 and 5, i think Bogut has done considerably well against all types of competition. The difference between Bogut and Marvin is that Bogut has proved himself and Marvin has not. No sorry, averaging 11 and 5 doesnt count as proving yourself, Im sure plenty of guys in the league have similar averages. At the moment, all that Marvin is being rated on is "potential" and over-generated hype, something that can be infinitely measured on any player.


Well, when you have 3 McDonalds all-americans on your team who are juniors, you really aren't gonna get that many touches in big games, thats a fact. Marvin does quite well in the clutch though, there was that tip in with a minute left in the national title game to take the lead, and the game winner in the biggest game of the year (Duke). Lets see do I want a freshman taking all the shots in big games or do I want my 3 upperclassmen with experience taking the shots. Thats a real tough call.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> Lets see do I want a freshman taking all the shots in big games or do I want my 3 upperclassmen with experience taking the shots.


I guess it depends.
If it's Marvin Williams, I guess the answer is no.
But if it's Carmelo Anthony, I guess the answer is yes, hmm?


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

The only upper classman on that Syracuse team was Kueth Duany. Hak and Forth were sophomores and G-Mac and Melo were freshmen. It's not fair to compare the playing time opportunity of Melo on a Cuse team that had basically no one, and Marvin Williams who played on a UNC team that might have been the most talented collection of individual players on a NCAA team in the last 25 years with 5 upperclassmen who could have started for any team in college basketball. Playing for a coach with a clear preference to older players.

What I think is revealing is the 0 assist games from Bogut against big time competition. Except for the Oklahoma game he really didn't get assists at all; it really makes it look like his one game in the tournament against Oklahoma hyped up his passing ability a little higher than it really is. His rebounding is REALLY impressive, especially that 17 he dropped on Brandon Bass.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Nimreitz said:


> What I think is revealing is the 0 assist games from Bogut against big time competition. Except for the Oklahoma game he really didn't get assists at all; it really makes it look like his one game in the tournament against Oklahoma hyped up his passing ability a little higher than it really is. His rebounding is REALLY impressive, especially that 17 he dropped on Brandon Bass.


What the 0 assist games reveal is that some teams don't double Bogut, and he almost never passed unless he was doubled. But you would actually have had to watch his games to know that.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> I guess it depends.
> If it's Marvin Williams, I guess the answer is no.
> But if it's Carmelo Anthony, I guess the answer is yes, hmm?


And who were Melo's 3 upperclassmen who were McDonalds allamericans? Come on, you know he was the only stud on that team besides Hakim.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

The Mad Viking said:


> What the 0 assist games reveal is that some teams don't double Bogut, and he almost never passed unless he was doubled. But you would actually have had to watch his games to know that.


Dude, everyone on here is a college/nba fan, and watch almost everygame there is to watch, we wouldn't be posting on here if we were just casual fans. So stop the ascinine comments about people not watching games, ou obviously don't know any of us so why keep up these stupid comments?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Nimreitz said:


> might have been the most talented collection of individual players on a NCAA team in the last 25 years with 5 upperclassmen who could have started for any team in college basketball.


Are you kidding me? Duke, Kentucky, UNLV have all had more talented squads in the last 25 years. Certainly much deeper teams. Duke even somewhat recently. Heck even Arizona in retrospect had better squads than this UNC team. It was another down year in college basketball. 

I believe even JayWill got run as a freshmen at Duke on a pretty good team, no?


Heck, this may not have been even the most talented UNC team in the last 25 years. Maybe not even the second.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Duke 1999 - Elton Brand, William Avery, Shane Battier, Trajan Langdon, Corey Maggette

Kentucky 1996 - Antoine Walker, Ron Mercer, Derek Anderson, Tony Delk, Walter McCarty, Nazr Mohammad, Mark Pope

Michigan 1992-93 - Chris Webber, Jalen Rose, Juwan Howard, Jimmy King, Eric Riley (played for a few years), Ray Jackson

These three teams were the most talented teams from the past 15 years and yet only one of them went on to win the title (albeit both Duke and Michigan teams lost in the Finals).


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

The 84 and 87 heels were definitely more talented than this one.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

UNLV might have counted if their players weren't getting paid. Except for UK, those teams were very young and weren't kept together. And when it comes to the NBA potential, this team might trump all the rest. May, Felton, McCants, and Jawad I can see all becoming good NBA players, but Jackie is probably the Avery or Langdon of the team. Experience does count for something though, and Marvin was a freshman vying for minutes against upperclassmen who were also McD's AAs. To compare Melo's situation to Marvin's was just rediclous.

I agree, it might not have been the most talented UNC team, and I went WAAAAAAY too far back with the 25 year stretch, but this was a really talented and experienced team. Expecting All American numbers from Marvin Williams (or any freshman) is just unrealistic.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> Dude, everyone on here is a college/nba fan, and watch almost everygame there is to watch, we wouldn't be posting on here if we were just casual fans. So stop the ascinine comments about people not watching games, ou obviously don't know any of us so why keep up these stupid comments?


I don't know you, and I don't want to, because if you are watching Bogut play, you must be doing it with your head up your ***.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

The Mad Viking said:


> I don't know you, and I don't want to, because if you are watching Bogut play, you must be doing it with your head up your ***.


Hey cpaw, wheres the edit/warning/suspension? Or do you only edit and warn me?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> Hey cpaw, wheres the edit/warning/suspension? Or do you only edit and warn me?


Mad Viking>MarvinWilliams#1in05
You realize the reason you got thrown out last time was because you were not only insulting people personally...but you were insulting a COMMUNITY MODERATOR personally. Someone who had the power to at the snap of a finger, to throw you out. Or have you not figured that out yet?

And MadViking didn't insult you, he insulted your perspective on Bogut.


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## hirschmanz (Jun 3, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Mad Viking>MarvinWilliams#1in05
> You realize the reason you got thrown out last time was because you were not only insulting people personally...but you were insulting a COMMUNITY MODERATOR personally. Someone who had the power to at the snap of a finger, to throw you out. Or have you not figured that out yet?
> 
> And MadViking didn't insult you, he insulted your perspective on Bogut.


MWilliams was harsh in his first post, but saying that he watches Bogut with his head up his *** has nothing to do with his perspective on Bogut. 

Also, Mad Viking>MarvinWilliams#1in05 may be true (I like bogut #1 in 05), but it doesn't make his points any less valid. He could be less confrontational, but he had a good point that bogut only passes out of double-teams, otherwise he has the size and skill (especially in college) to beat his man one-on-one.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> Hey cpaw, wheres the edit/warning/suspension? Or do you only edit and warn me?


For starters, I had not yet read the post in question. Secondly, if you would like to discuss moderating decisions, please feel free to PM me.

The guiding principle is to not attack other posters.


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