# Long Time Knicks/Fan 1st Time Poster/Random Thoughts on the Knicks (Very Long)



## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

*LongTime Knicks Fan(20yrs+)/1st Time Poster/Random Thoughts on the Knicks (Very Long)*

I Have Been a Knick fan since I was in Diapers & Could Remember When we
had the likes of Micheal Ray Richardson, a Young Good Bill Cartwright
& a older Maurice Lucus . 

Became more Aware of the Particulars of the Game & players other then Knickerbockers During the Brief but Exicting "King Bernard" Era & Became Infatuated w. the Game after the Ewing Draft Since at the Time it Seemed like everyone was taking for granted we would get the 1st pick & hence Ewing in the 1st Lottery Ever which I remember As 1 of the Brighter moments in my life . 

Granted I was 6 When We Drafted Ewing But I knew all about the Type of player he was Expected to be & Became .




So Needless to Say I been a Pro Hoops Junkie for the past 20 Years Now
& have Seen the NBA Go from a Fast-Break Run & Gun Fundamentaly Sound Game , To a Scientific Above the Rim Ballet That Cant Be Topped , To a Defencive Brawling passioninte Style, to a Isolation Fest where you could play a Game of 2 on 2 if you choose , to a Game Where the Players have Goten So lazy relieing purely on Talent & Athleticism instead of Skill & Intellengence that the Game had to be Changed in Accordence to the New Breed of "Dummy Jumping Jack's Protensul Rich Hacks" which is the Era where Currently in 




Through this said Time The Knicks more often then Not have been Rudderless . Perhaps the Bigest Reason as has ALWAYS been the Problem with this Organization ( Which I liken to a Pre-2004 Red Sox Tormented losers Syndrom Which Can Now be Known as Cubbitus ) Has Been it's Ownership . 





Sure you or I can Sit here & Say it's the GM all we Want But the Owner Hires the GM in the 1st place & I say it starts at the Top since thats who Dictates the Course of the Team : Rebuilding-Going for Broke-Philoshiphy ETC .... & Going back to my Birth year of 1979 this Team has found ways to mess Up , Weather it be Drafting Micheal Ray Richardson over LARRY FRICKIN BIRD or Not Resiging Bernard King or Xavier McDainel when there Contract was up , to having 3,565,657 Coaches in Patrick Ewings 1st 7 Seasons . 




or the Fact our Medical Staff has been The Worse in the History of Sports for the Francises History ( I defy Anyone to Show me 2 Non Injury-Riddled Knicks Years in the Francises 60 Year History ) . 




To Trades & Releses Such as Mark Jackson/pick for Charles Smith/Doc Rivers or Rod Strickland for God Knows why or Trading for Doug Christie Whome Knick Fans at the Time knew About & Wanted only to see him play None ball . 




To Strange Coaching Decisions & Moves . Such as Bringing in "I Don't Use No Damn Centers to play Basketball" Don Nelson to a Team with The 2nd Best Center & argubely the Best Center in the NBA at the Time . to Being Co Dissed by Jeff Van Gundy (He did it for the Right Reasons , Layden Screwed Him ) & Rick Pitinio ( Hind Sight it was Best for Both partys but it Sucked Real Bad At the Time ) To being almost Imploded with the Venom that was the Rile's Departure ( At the Time there where Roomers he would be taking Ewing or Starks down there w. him of course never happened )




All in All I'm Still A Die Hard Knicks Fan . Even Though I think the NBA is in one of it worse Periods & in Many Asspects I think todays NBA is a "Reverese Mirror Image" of the NBA Pre Russell-Wilt-Baylor-1958 . 

Not to mention the Fact that Scott Layden Was the 1st person in 16 yrs to get me to Not look at a Knick Telecast . Since from 1985 to 2001 I Saw Every Telvised Knick Game either Live or Tapped once i got a VCR & Found out hot to work it . Since he Absoultly Souled this Team out & Did So in a Way that he Really Shoud be Brought up on Charges & put in Jail for Falsely Representing a GM . 



So let me Say this on our Current Edition of The Knicks & the Isiah Thomas Era . It's been on big Breath of Freash Air So For . Granted Isiah has made a Ton of Trades & Some for the Sake to be Making them . Say that if you Will at least he has a plan .I have Never Gotten Why Have So Many people in the Media-Media outlets-Internet Sites & so forth , have been so Critical of Isiah .



If you take a Real Look at What Layden was Doing to the Knicks & what Thomas is Doing with the Knicks it's Night & Day . 



Layden Would Get players He would have a Loyalty too Anderson-Eisley . He would get Vet Role Players who where once Good/Quality players in the NBA who whould be a bad fit on your Team Rice-Weatherspoon . 



He would then Strike when the Iron is Cold for Trades . Such as the Ewing/Nothing But Cap Hell & Pure Hell or the Camby/McDyess Deal . 



Not to Mentinong Not Notifing the NBA in the Proper Time Period to get an Exemption for Larry Johnson & not planning on the Fact he was going to Retire ( As James Dolan Stated a Few Months Back on Mike & the Mad Dog ) . 




To Signing Alan Houston to a Max Contract When he was Nothing more then a Offencive Role Player for a Title contending Team Before Knee Injurys , let alone After . 




So I Never Really Understood what The Media & Knick Fans on the Whole Wanted Isiah to Do ? Since once Jeff Van Gundy left & McDyess got injured in that Pre Season game against the Suns . 



The Knicks where Nothing more thena 30 Win Team at best , So what Happened mid Season we get Zeke . Then Marbury . Then We overAcieve & Make the playoffs & Fans Expect to get better .




When in Reality we needed to take a Step back to take a Step Foward . & What Happend Last year on the Surface We Sucked it up Finsihing with the 7th worse Record (Raps had more wins against us but won a coin flip to determen Seeding for the Draft ) . 




But As Wise People Know dont always look at the Surface .



Last Year the Knicks has 0 Shot blockers 0 post scorers , had Houston ( whom last year we where counting on ) play what 17 games ? not to mention Crawford ( Whome we always wanted coming off the bench to Spot H20-Marbury ) getting injured for 6-7 Weeks in a Cruical part of the Scedual for the Knicks . 



To Penny Playing about as much as Houston , Tim Tomas Grieving for his Sister Who Died either Proir too or during the 1st week of the Season & Never living up to the Games he played during Preseason ,To Marbury possibly being Warn out from the Olympics .





To The Real Reason Why We won only 35 Games last Year , We Did Not Come up to make the play in the Close Games . I Dont Remember the Exact Records but the Knicks had the Worse Record & Winning Percentage In Games Decided by 6 pts or less & in games Decided By 3 pts or less . 




So lets think About it Now We have a Shot Blocker in Frye . 3 Post Scores in Frye-Richardson & Lee , 4 Newely Aquired Atlhletes who have a Understanding of playing the Game at a High level of Competivness & thrive in a Running Style . 

A Running Style that Knick Fans have Craved for since it's ONLY running Era of the Knicks w. Stu Jacksons Vaunted "Bombsquad" at the Turn of the Previous Decade . 


We Also HaVe Insurence for Alan Houston (Whome we might Cut , But we also might keep) in Qrich & Insurence for him with Crawford & Insurence for him with Nate Robinson ( Remember at the End of the Season the Time Jermain Jackson got well it's Nate's time to Shine Now ) . 



Also David Lee May be in the Plans as more of a 3 then a 4 . since last Year Ariza was Exposed at being a little to light for the Sturdyer SF's around the NBA & Lee would actully make them work for a Change . Much like Q Rich at the 2 Spot . 


I Can See the Knicks Playing Similarie to the 2000 Knicks When we tried to Transition From Ewing to Spreewell/Houston . When We Would Run & Post up our Swingers Spree/Houston/LJ & Allow Ewing to get his pick & Rolls & Camby get his Tip ins . 


Difference is we Dont have a Old Ewing or Non Point Guards to Slow us Down . 


I Ultimly See Frye as our Power Foward & Lee as our SF . Lee Would be a Tremendous Asset to Frye Since all of Channings Weakneses or All David Lees Strentghs & Vice Versa . & The Best Part is there Both Athletic & more importantly SKILLED Enough to Slide Down & Play the 2 Fowards Spots . 



While looking For a Skilled Rebounder & Shot Blocker I Feel this Team Needs to Make us Title Worthy Again or Atleast on the Short list of Teams that Win 53 or more Games . 



With Robinson At 1st I Was Peplexed Then I Remembered Something from when we 1st got Isiah . I Remember him Saying in some Media outlet , that the Team has No Identy or Strength & With Nate Robinson I Feel that Changes . 



It's offical where a Team that wants to do well in a Running Tempo Game & wanted to have the Abilty to push the Ball up Fast & Faster . & thats pretty much the Knicks Backcourt : Fast-Marbury/Richardson to : Faster Crawford/Robinson .


This Also Allows Marbury the Oppertunity to Finally being allowed to Play Defence , instead of havin to Conserve his Energy to play 40 mins a night because the Team had no other Option to help it self . 



Also Lets Keep in mind this Team is for from Complete Heading into the Season . We Will still be Trying to pair our Roster out to a more Balence Team with NBA Hight instead of JHS Height ( Sorry Nate ) . 2 players I Feel We Would be Best to move if at all Possible is . Maurice Taylor & Mike Sweetney for too totaly different but the Same Reason 


A : Taylor is a bad fit & we dont have a sopt for him & we might get somthing of Value for Sweetney 


B : We have a lot of undersized PF's sitll in JYD & Rose Who bring more of what we need to the Table then either one of Mo or Mike . Maurice Taylor is Far Harder to Trade which means i would try to Trade him 1st . Now he's not Impossible to Trade . Just Hard pending on Team Needs & Our Needs . Some Swaps We might be able to get for Maurice Talor Stright up : Mo 






Mo Taylor for : PJ Brown ( Hornets might want to get Younger & KeeP Maglorie while adding a Post Scorer ) Wally Scerbiak ( The Wolves Despartly Need a Post Scorer & it would save them a Ton of Money ) Jerry Stackhouse ( They Need a Post Scorer as Well to possible move Dirk to SF & Go Big ? ) Melvin Ely ( Mo only has 2 years left on his Deal Gives Bobcats a Vet Who is a Very Good Post Scorer if nothing Else to Tutor Okofor/May & Give the Bobcats a Very Good post Scoring Quartet in Emeka/May & Brezec/Taylor ) Adonal Foyle ( If we Got Desprete but he's the Exact type of player we need a Rebounder Shot blocker ) 


Then Depending on What You Get for Taylor a C or a SF I would then Trade Sweetney for the Oppisite Position & Possiblie a Pick & Since Sweetneys Contract is So Reasonable He can be Traded for Virtual Any one in the NBA withen in Reason . 


We Also have the MLE & LLE Not to mention a 15 mil Expiring contract in Penny & a 13 mil Expiring in Tim Thomas to Help with an Sign & Trades .




However most of the Prime Free Agents in this Years pool was Resigned last Year w. the likes of AK-47 , J-Rich , Troy Murphy , Zack Randolph & Richard Jefferson All Doing So .

there Arent many IMPACT Free Agents that can Change Any Team they Go to instead a Bunch of players That Will Probelly Sign for more then there Worth ( Such as a Joe Johnson or a Samuel Dalembert ) & or Pretty Much SYSTEMS Oreinted Players Who need to be in a Structure to Thrive & Further Florish there Carears . 



So with that Being Said What Do I See Happing between Now & Training Camp is this .


We Go after a Big Center who can Bang Rebound Defend & Block Shots & a SF that is a Consistent Player . While Bringing in as much Youth-Talent & Skill As Possible With that Said I Would like Out line Up to Resemble something like this come the Pre Season Camps .



I Doubt Houston Will Be Cut Like been Reported Since it Does Nothing to make us better & In the Back Of Isiahs Ming he Thinks Houston Will be Healthy Again Like McDyess This Year & Besides Houstons Contract will be Valuble after Next Year Expecialy should he get Healthy Since he will be at 25 mill coming of the Books . 




But I Can See a Sweetney/Rose for Etan Thomas/Possible Pick Trade Happing





Knicks Roster

Etan Thomas(Sweetney/Rose)-Dan Gadzuric(MLE/6 yrs)-Randolph Morris(LLE/4yrs)
Channing Frye-David Lee-Jerome Williams
Wally Sczerbiak-Trevor Ariza-Tim Thomas (IR)
Queintin Richardson-Jamal Carawford-Alan Houston (IR)-Penny Hardaway (IR)
Stephon Marbury-Nate Robinson








This Will Give us the Balenced line up We Have ALWAYS Been Craving for In MSG in one form or anonther & This I Feel Would Give the Knicks a Team as Diverse as the Knick Team of the Early 70's Now Weather or not they Can be as Good as those players is another Story . 



But we Do have a Bunch of Movable InterChangeavle Parts & the best part is Everyone would be doing something Sligtly Different . But one thing is For Certain is that We Can Run the Floor & Fill the Lanes , While Maintaining a Young Competive Team .


I Feel the Team As Consistuted Above Would Challenge for the 3rd spot (Alantic Division Crown) in the East much like Last Year Except we would have More Versitlity , Height-Length-Athletisim & Talent . 



HowEver I feel We Would be a Team too Influx to Get a Larry Brown & It Being a Good Fit or Enticing a Nate McMillian or a Flip Saunders Here . InStead I Think Herb Williams Will Remain As Coach . 


Since Only McMillian & Saunders have shown the propensity to play younger players . With Nate McMillian Ultimily having more Success then Saunders ( Getting to the 2nd round of the West in the Playoffs as Opposed to having a top 3 NBA Player & Geting out of the 1st round once ) does . 



Herb Has Been here for a While has His Share of Fans & Knows how to Relate to All Types of Players . Since Herb Williams Went from an All-Star & Francise Type player for the Pacers to a 12th man who Fans whould beg & Pled to get into the Game at the End of his Carear with Us. & Did so with Professionalism-Passion & Pride . So I Feel Comfertable W. Herb as I do with Anyone Else for this Team including some of the Bigger Names out there . 





By the Trade Deadline I Feel Isiah will make up his Mind about Houston & Would Need to If He's to Trade Tim Thomas/Penny Hardaway . 


Because Chances are We Would have to get 2 players for Thomas/Hardaway & We would then Need Houstons Roster Spot at that point . 


However that is So far Away , So Who Really Knows What Slumping Team would Want to Shed Some Payroll & Dump a Good players just for the Siren Song of Cap Relife & Free Agencey .


Since only Bad Underaciveing Teams Close to Getting Max Cap Space or the Type of Teams that Trade a All-Star for an Expiring 
Countract . So heres to Hoping the Clippers Suck , Thus Giving us a Shot at Elton Brand .


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

Welcome to the site!


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

Thanks & I Hope People Take Time & Acttualy Read & Respond to my Post Sinc eI Feel I Have a Lot To Offer to the Board & Have Ton of Expereince in Basketball-Baseball & Life In General & I have Unique Outlook on things which poeple will probelly Find out & I'm Probelly Coming in as a Father Figure on this Boards Since in Chronalogical Years I Might be one of the oldest & Seen the Most Baskettball on this Board in all likley hood not to Brag Just a Fact Especially if you're under 20 . So Will Appreciate All Intelengent-Thoughtful-Provokative Replies & I Will use an Enima to Flush out all of the Toxens Spamers-Flamers & Haters


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## wilon_1 (Jul 25, 2002)

Great post. Good thoughts. I like what you have to say and if things go like you hope they will, we might have a very special team this season and for more seasons to come. I can't see IT sitting on what he has done and do expect many more changes to come. I am very excited about this upcoming season.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Ah, my son....*

You are a mere puppy compared to some of us old dogs...(can I get a shout out to Truth?). We go back to Clyde, Earl, and Dick Barnett. I agree with your assessment of the games evolution, for the most part, but I think you are being overly kind to IT and to some of the players on the roster. Let's not annoint Frye as a shotblocker until he has blocked his first one, OK? He will be a solid overall center, I think, but he is not a savior by any means. Frankly, this teams still has major needs. We are still small, our PG doesn't run the break well or D up....our new 2 guard shots at a lower clip than the guy he is supposedly replacing....unless Ariza is ready, we are still lacking a real SF..(TT?..Please...). I like the possibilities at PF and center but the team needs to commit to uptempo offense with movement and defensive pressure consistently in order to improve. Perimeter shooting will be woeful again unless there is a trade made.

Regarding IT's talent expertise....well, he did draft Tmac but admittedly never knew he would be this good. He also plucked Ariza from the 2nd round but just how well he did with that pick remains yet to be seen, although initial indications are he will be at least solid. Really, for a guy that claims these two as his biggest draft successes, he has not much of a record up to now.

I am not a Marbury fan and never have been, so I was against that trade. I am not against trading the guys we traded...I just thought Marbury was a piece we didn't need. Lets not forget his infatuation with Dampier, either. Frankly, the guy scares me at times. We will see soon enough...


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Ah, my son....*



alphadog said:


> I am not a Marbury fan and never have been, so I was against that trade. I am not against trading the guys we traded...I just thought Marbury was a piece we didn't need. Lets not forget his infatuation with Dampier, either. Frankly, the guy scares me at times. We will see soon enough...


Zeke seems to have done a complete reversal in the type of players he is going after...i.e,no more basketball boneheads....

frye,lee and lil nate are smart quality guys with good fundamentals..and they are willing to work...I think the Damp days are over....

Yes Alfa,the good old days


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## eddymac (Jun 23, 2005)

Its a good read but why would the Knicks trade Sweetney for Stackhoouse? I feel Micheal Sweetney is apart of what the Knicks need for the future I think if he gets the proper playing time he will be a 15/8 type player. By the way the Knicks already have one of the best guard rotations in the NBA with Marbury/QRich/Crawford/Robinson. I would start Tim Thomas at the three (*I would not trade him* ) Then you would have Ariza be his backup. At the four the aformentioned Sweetney would be the power forward, to wards the tail end of the season he played well. So with him in the starting line up he can only improve. With Jerome Williams as the backup he brings energy off the bench. Then at center I would start Frye with Malik Rose Rose and David Lee as his backup.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*pffffffft!!.....*

Tim Thomas sucks...period. He is worth more as an expiring contract than as a player. You are being a bit optimistic about your guard rotation, aren't you? Robinson hasn't played a minute, Marbury has never won anything, JC has a problem with decision-making and shot selection (read: currently a chucker), and Qrich is probably a better 3 than a 2. Having a team full of 2's that shoot under 40% is not my idea of being talent-rich.
I agree with Sweetney...he will at least be a solid guy off the bench...and that is important to a team. Lee is NOT a center...he is a swing forward with being best suited for the 4


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: pffffffft!!.....*



alphadog said:


> Tim Thomas sucks...period. He is worth more as an expiring contract than as a player. You are being a bit optimistic about your guard rotation, aren't you? Robinson hasn't played a minute, Marbury has never won anything, JC has a problem with decision-making and shot selection (read: currently a chucker), and Qrich is probably a better 3 than a 2. Having a team full of 2's that shoot under 40% is not my idea of being talent-rich.
> I agree with Sweetney...he will at least be a solid guy off the bench...and that is important to a team. Lee is NOT a center...he is a swing forward with being best suited for the 4


i wouldt call Rose a center either.....
Alfa,i am not sure TT sukks....thats a bit harsh...
And on paper that is one hell of a guard rotation..

If Portland waives Ratliff,would you want him cheap??
How about Jerome James fot the MLE?


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## wilon_1 (Jul 25, 2002)

kills me when people say Starbury has not won anything. How long did it take Kevin Garnet to make it out of the first round? No one mentions that. How many superstars are there that have not gotten past the first round? I think he is a hell of a player and with a good team around him, they can make it far. I have high hopes for the boys this season and I think we will do very well.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Marbury has had Talent around him....*

Garnett didn't. Loser with a capital L. Truth....paper teams are for fantasy leagues. Games are won on the court. I would love nothing more than to have robinson kick starbury's butt and force a trade. Maybe we can trade Q for Artest That is a backcourt I could get behind...dynamic, and they would kick the crap out of opponents (physically). Got to be a way to get him in Blue and Orange. I think we might work a trade with the Wiz giving TT + a player in order to get Kwame and an unwanted guy with a bad 'tract to make the money work. We get the big body...they get a player they can use (low post scorer) and an expiring.


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## Fordy74 (May 22, 2002)

I started following the Knicks just about the same time you did. the cartwright, Sugar ray, sly williams, louis orr, rory sparrow days, right before 'Nard came on board. Its nice to have another elder person on here, welcome!! that was some 1st post :eek8:


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Marbury has had Talent around him....*



alphadog said:


> Garnett didn't. Loser with a capital L. Truth....paper teams are for fantasy leagues. Games are won on the court. I would love nothing more than to have robinson kick starbury's butt and force a trade. Maybe we can trade Q for Artest That is a backcourt I could get behind...dynamic, and they would kick the crap out of opponents (physically). Got to be a way to get him in Blue and Orange. I think we might work a trade with the Wiz giving TT + a player in order to get Kwame and an unwanted guy with a bad 'tract to make the money work. We get the big body...they get a player they can use (low post scorer) and an expiring.


the problem with washington is they are well run and dont have any crappy bloated contracts..we cant even offer them TT or penny as they dont have filler to swap..

Jamison is there highest paid player and his salary equals TT but has 3 years left...Other than him,there is only Jarvis hayes or Etan..Thomas does have 5 years left on his contract,but we would deplete their frontcourt....

it would have to be Sweets and Rose/MoT ..I cant see them doing that..

The other option is JC for Kwame,assuming the Wiz let Hughes go


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

My Thought's on Individual Players on the Knick Roster In Order of Importance to the Team


Stephon Marbury : 

Player Comparison-Bigger Isiah Thomas

Player Typer-Point Guard w. Abilty to Score ( Not a Scoring Point Guard ) 

Game Style-Controlled Aggresion like Derrek Harper-Joe Dumars-Micheal Jordan , All of Whome played witha "Game Face" While never really blowing there Cool & Getting a Tech 

Knickname-"Big Cheesecake" (Reference to the Classic Starbury Cheese Cake From Juniors in brooklyn back in 1994 & his Standing with Isiah Thomas & every Club he's been on Prior to the Knicks) 

FastBreak BasketBall Rating (Should Be) B B A B- D+ B 

NBA Live Rating 77 (Should be . keep in Mind I Hate there overall rating System penalizing Past Great players Average & Making The Current ones Great ) 


Player History :

Stephon Marbury's Lincon High Scool Days : 

Now Steph more So Then Any Knick is one I know the Most About & Actully have Met Numerous Times & Even Hung out with on 2 Different occasions . Since When Marbury Was Attending Lincon in the Coney Island/Gravesend era of Brooklyn , I Would Cut School (Even Thoe I Never Really went to School in the 1st place) & Travel from My Home on Livonia Ave at the Time & Sneak in to Various High Schools to See Marbury Play ( I would Go & & do the Same with many Top NYC HSers through the Years Feliepe Lopez-Ron Artest-Omar Cook-Chris Taft-Andrew Bynum ) So His History to Say the Least I know Well .


Marbury Has Always Been Sheltered Athlete ( As Most Are so let's not make it sound like a Bad thing ) Who Had Complete Controll of Every team he's been on Since Lincon HS . He would pretty much be the Teams Coach/GM & Had complete Run of his Team & would Pretty Much Dictate to the Team . Which as it Was , was a Good thing since Marbury Always did Come & Practice Hard & Play Hard .

However He never really got around to Developing an Attachment to the Team , Since Lincon would shuffle around the Role players alot . Where as there seemed to be a New Teammate everytime I Saw Steph Play . So in my Hindsight Speculation Marbury would get Players off the Team he Did'nt Mesh with & I'm not Sure if that made the Coach/school Happy , But they Dealt with it Since Steph was Specil , even though the School Won the NYC HS Championship sticking with him . 

Which Might Explane Stephon Marbury has'nt had his Lincon HS Jersey Retired Yet , While his Cousin Whome he had a Much Ballyhooed beef with Since Marbury Left Seaside Gardens taking his Family While Leaving His Cousin's . Portland Trailblazers 1st yr PG out of Lincon HS as Well Sebastian Telifair , Who By the Way Had his Lincon HS Jersey Retired last Year when the Jailbreakers plaid the Knicks at the Garden . 


Stephon Marbury's College Carrear : 

Stephon Then Went To Geogia Tech Playing with Either Pat Garrity/Matt Harpring ??? ( Cant Tell They look & Play Alike ) & there I kinda of lost Touch With Him . Since at that Time there was No Fox Sports-ESPN 2-ESPN U or PPV to see his Games Add Nauseum . So I only Saw him a Handful Of Times & Could'nt Really Tell you How he Played Here .



Stephon Marbury's TimberWolves Carrear :

When He Was Drafted by Minnasota ( I Count the Wolves as his Draft Team , Much Like I Count Us as Nate Robinsons Draft Team ) . He INSTENTLY Made the Team Better & Was the Teams Best Player & Leader . NOT GARNETT ( In Fact For as Good As Garnett is & I Feel he is the Best Overall Talent in the NBA , But He Cant Be his Team's Leading Scorer on a Championship Winning Team . Since his one Weakness is that he's not a Go to Scorer on a Title Team & Would need A Player Who can Be an Even Better Scorer then him . Like Marbury ? ) Garnett Had Yet that point to Rove to be a Pivot(al) Player & Was almost Strickly a Wing player That needed Transitional Oppertunitys & Open court space to Get his Game Going . 

Both Of Which Marbury Helped him Thrive In , Also Having a Healthy Tom Gugoliata who was on his was on becoming Tom Chambers Helped open the Floor . Minnasota had a Run & Gun Line up Which at th Time was an Ill fit for the NBA Due to the Teams Age & the Team playing in the NBA's Isolation Fest of the mid late 90's . So the Team Was pretty much Ill Suited for the 2 year Time Period Steph was there to Contend for anything more then the playoffs , if Steph wore to Stay & Googs stayed healthy . Letting them grow Together they would eventualy of been title Contenders Since the NBA Changed Up to a more Athletic Style Which would of Suited The Team as it Was Consituted with there Big 3 . 

However NO ONE Knew that Steph Would Be Home Sick ( I Did & I Also feel the Same way about Artest ) & Would have Enough Leverage with The Garnett Contract & The Fact he was Further along as a player at the Time Feeling he should of been paid Comparable . He Demanded a Trade to the NY Metro Area & Thus the Marbury Swamp Rat Gnat Days Began .



Stephon Marbury's Nets Carrear :


When Marbury was Traded to the Swamp Rat Gnats ( New Jeresey Nets for those inclined to call em that ) He was Automatical the Teams Francise Player . 

Granted he was Vastley More Talented & Skilled then Sam Cassell Who had 2 Championship Rings & a "Got the Gnats To the Playoffs" Card in His Pocket , leading the Nets to the Playoffs the Year Earlier . However that Was a Team that played in a Full Season With a Full Training Camp , Marbury Came in during the Trade Deadline to a Team . That Was Very Young w. a Young Coach in a Strike Shortend Year Which lead the Team not Getting to Learn together like a Young team needs to . Not to Mention that the Nets that Year was Ravaged By Injury ( Which would be a portent of things to Come ) .


So Needles to Say the Team Sucked & Was one of the Wosre in the NBA . Problem Was they Traded the Pick Prior to the Season In Excange for Keith Van Horn in the Tim Thomas Trade I Belive . So That Coupled with the New Salery Cap Restrictions , Crippled the Nets Oppertunity to Add a Player/s to the Team to Get Better & Had a Terreble Draft to Boot . That & Jayson Williams had Since been Serverly Injured Ending his Carear & Crippling the Nets Front line .

So Steph Still to this point in Carear in NJ or Minnasota had Yet to have a Post player who can Score in the post . Instead He Did his Best to play with a Ton of Wing Players & Soft Bigs & perhaps made the Team better then what they where ( Like he did for Us when we 1st got him ) . Then What Happend they get the 1st pick & Kenyon Martin ( Who is Still not a Post Scorer I Might add ) What Happens 1st Keith Van Horn ( Who all his Best years was playing with Marbury ) hurts his leg then Kenyon Martin Goes Down Then Marbury . Jamie Feik whome they Started to Count on as a Rebounding Spot up Shooting Assain Suffered a Carear Ending Foot injury & He Never Played for the Nets Again . Which Was the Story Of Marburys Carear in New Jersey , TO Many Damn Injurys to Ever Do Anything but lose with .

At the End of the 2001 season The Nets Would Trade Him To Phoenix for Jason Kidd , That Coupled With the Trade of Eddie Griffin for Richard Jefferson & Jason Collins Made the Nets Instently Better & in fact made them a Title Contender .



Stephon Marbury's Time with the Suns :


When he Was Traded to the Suns they too where in the Playoffs the Year Prior to Stephon's Arrival . Problem was they lost Three Very Importent Parts to that Team that Won 51 Games in Clifford Robinson-Rodney Rogers-Tony Delk not To Mention Valuble Vetran Leaders like Chris Dudley-Mario Elie-Vinny Del *****-Elliot Perry . All of Whome Where Either off the Roster Prior to the Season Or in Vinny's Case Retiring during it . 

So The Suns Who Had Just made a Bunch of Moves that Showed they where interested in Rebuildin Getting Parts Such as a Very Young Raw & Flat out not Ready Joe Johnson (I Would Contend he still is Should he Recive a Max Type Contract He's No more then a 6-8 Mil $ Player At this Point I Feel)-John "I Could of been Bernard King If I Did anything else Well other then Score" Wallace-An Old Dan Marjele who had Been Beaten Down by Years of Gruling Knick-Heat Serries & No Viable Post Players Let Alone Post Scorers . Marion was there & He was Good but he Was Raw & Not the Player he is Now . So They Sucked it up , Played Poorly & Drafted Amare Stoudmire .

Wala Things Changed over Night , Marbury Lead a Very Exciting Team Similar in Many Aspects to this Years Nash Lead Suns , Only it Was Amare's Rookie Season So needles to say he was Raw & Not a True Post Scorer ( & Guess What he's Still Raw & is Not a True Post Scorer as The Olympic Showed , He Has No Post Game in Stead He in My Eyes is a Big Small Foward Masscarading as a Post Player Since His Skills 10 Feet in to the Basket is Relagade Soley on Jumping Abilty & Quickness Which Can Over Night With a Leg Injury & then he would have No Game ) But Marion Had Gotten Much Better , Joe Johson Showed he Could Score in this League Finally & the Arrival of Scott Williams & Stoudmire's Fellow Rookie mate Casey Jacobson .

So Finally Marbury Had a Complete Well Rounded Team , Albiet a Very Young one counting the Teams Focul points to a Very Goods Season . Although the Record will show only 44 Wins this is was in Perhaps the Toughfest Confrence in the History of Sports . Which was the NBA's Western Conference from 2000-2003 , Where you had Teams missing the Playoffs with .500 Records & Many Teams with .400 Winning Percentages with The Worse Teams in the Conference at the Time Rockets-Clippers-Grizzles could all Be Playoff Teams in the East . Marbury lead this Team Against The Eventually NBA Champion Spurs in the Playoffs & Gave the Spurs there Toughest Challenge in that Years Playoffs ( & Much Tougher then the Nash Lead Suns played against the Spurs with a More Polished JJ-Matrix-Amare & Not to mention Q to Help him , While Penny Was Injured in the Playoffs as was Tskalidas who they used in spot up duty Early in the Season )

So Now After the Way the Suns Played Against the Finals Winning San Antonio Francise. Expectations where Very High , perhaps too High when Considering This was the NBA's Western Conference Where Every Team has as much Talent As Anyone Else if not more in the NBA Especially if you Brought up the Eastern Conference . 

However the Expectations Was Never Met , 1st Stoudimire Went Done with a Minor Injury & Missed the Beging of the Year for about a month or so Also During that Time Marion Was Injuried & Missed a Week Wrecking havoc with the Team's Chemistory , Since At this Point had Developed a log Jam at the Guard & Swinger Positions By Drafting Leonandro Barbosa to Go with Joe Johnson & Casey Jacobson to off Set Penny Hardaways Constent Injury's .

However When Marion Went down for that week Peeny Started Getting more Minutes then he was getting & Started making headway to the Media Impling Marbury Should Sit more Since he was one of the NBA Leaders in Minutes played at the Time So he Could get more playing Time & Implied Marbury was a Ball hog & Did'nt pass the Ball enough to Further his point . 

This in Turned Poisoned the Water So while Phoenix who had a Tough Schedual at the Start of the Season to begin with & Injurys too boot . They Decided to Go Full Flede into Rebuilding Mode By Trading Marbury & Penny to the Knicks for a Expiring Max Contract in McDyess a Expiring MLE Contract in Ward & A Contract they Could eat for 4 years in Howard "The Duck" Eisley & 2 Prospects in "Magic" Lampe & Milos "I Hate America because they Dont Relise I'm the Best PG in the World & Demend to Start off the Bat for Any NBA Team I Play on , while I go on from being groomed from the Starting Yugoslovian National Team PG to being Kicked of the Team . To being my Spanish Teams Starting Point Guard ony to Have to Shift over to SG Because I Dont Pass the Ball to my Teammates . To having to become a Bench player on my Clubs Top Team , to be Being Demoted to the Clubs 2nd Tier team & Tearing his ACL & not Playing this Season . While Still maintaing the Position threw his Agent that He Still Wont Come to the NBA & Play because He Should Start & Not have to Sit Behind the NBA's MVP Steve Nash who can play with EVERYONE & ANYONE , But Not me Because I'm not a NBA Bench Player) Vuljinac .

So What Happens to the Suns , They Clear a Ton of Cap Space Sign Queintin Richardson & Steve Nash . Had Amare & Marion Not Miss a Game & Joe Johnson Step his Game up to Show he might actully be a Starter in the NBA & a Solid one at that & Guess What , The Suns end up with the Best Record & Nash is Heralded as the Best Player in the World . While Everyone looks at Stepon Marbury With an Even More Juendice Eye , Questioning his Abilty to make a Team a Winner .



Stephon Marbury's Time With the Knickerbockers :


Now Middle of the Season Entering His DREAM JOB/SITUATION manning the PG Responsibilty's for his Beloved New York Knickerbockers & Made the Team INSTANTLY Better both on the Court & in terms of Overall Market/Product/Sex Appeal , Never Minding that Isiah Made a Bad Move in Hindsight Trading Weatherspoon for Moochie Nooris (Since Spoon Could of Helped us more then Norris Did especilly in the Playoffs) & That Even Thoe Keith Van Horn Was Playing the Best Balll of his Entire Carear Leading up to the Tim Thomas/Nasr Mohammad Trade . So that Shook Things ups even thoe Some would say for the Better Since we got a Center Type in "Mister Tippy" Nasr Mohammad & Ridden our Selves of the Speculation Marbury's & Van Horn's Past with the Nets .

We Went on to Play Ball No one Thought (Or Should of thought) we Where Capable of Playing Since the Ewing Trade , which is Respectabilty or .500 Basketball Which ever you Call/Consider it . Then While in the Playoffs in we Which we Got Swept Thanks to Jason Collins Clipping Tim Thomas & Richard Jefferson Being Allowed to Play the Next Game after Steping onto the Floor during the Frank Williams-? Fight Like Ewing was in 97 During the PJ Brown/Charlie Ward Fracus , Did'nt Help Neither .

So What Happened Expectations Where Racheted up Real High & Fans Expected a Bonified Playoff Team , Not to mention a Team that Would contend for the # 3 Spot in the East & the Alantic Division Crown . Which really was'nt so Far Fetched as it Ended up .

Marbury & Co Started the Season Well Meating Isiah Expectations of a .500 Record after the 1st 20 Games of the Season untill they Got Houston back (Whome they Was Counting on last year unlike this Year) & when they Did They Went on to a Run & Was Actully the Alantic Divion Leaders thanks to Marbury Leading the NBA in Assist to Turn Over Ratio at the Time . Often Taken himelf out of the Offensive Options for the 1st half of the Games Dispelling the Cloud of him Being a Ball Hog & UnWilling to pass the Ball to his Teammates , Looking to Get Kurt Thomas/Nasr Mohammad Touches Early to get there Offence Started . Then By Getting Tim Thomas/Mike Sweetney/Alan Houston InVolved as well (Crawford Got himSelf & Trevor Ariza/Jerome Williams Involved) .

Problem was For Marbury Nasr started Playing badley , Tim Thomas Never Got Going after his Sisters Death & Kurt Thomas Ended up trying to Assaualt him (Alledged) . Marbury & The Knicks Really Did'nt Have a Chance . Then Coupled with the Fact Alan Houston Ended up Reinjuring his Knee & was lost for the Season . Jamal Crawford Hurt his Foot & Was lost for a Crucial Streach of the Season where they could of Maintained there Standings in the Alantic/East .

Hence the Team Faltered & Lost A Ton of Close Games . In Fact the Knickerbockers Had lead the NBA last Year Both in Loses & Losing% in games Decided by not only 6 pts or less But Also 3 Points or Less . 

That on a Team that was Ill Suited to Block Shots or Even Alter them , Then By the Trading Deadline Isiah Thomas Had made Moves to Rectify his 2 Blunders so (In my Eyes anyway) Trading Vin Baker who he should'nt of Signed in the 1st place & Moochie Nooris whome We Did'nt need Perhaps at all but Definitly not once we got Marbury . By Getting Maurice "I'm a 20 Scorer in this league if given the Chance, but Nothing Else" Taylor & By Getting a player in Malik Rose whose a Leader & Knows about Winning on the NBA Level , not To mention 2 1st rounders . So this is Where Marbury Finds Himself Yet Again , Rebuilding team .




Strengths : 

There is No Question in my Mind Stephon Marbury is the Best Player in the History of NBA at Pentrating to the Hole With An Perfect Complement of Speed/Quickness/Grace/Strength/Power & Determination That Stands Under 6'6" & Weighs less then 210 Pounds . 

He Can Make Every Pass Imaginable that there is to make & play either in a Slow Pick & Role Half Court setting or in a Track Meet Fastbreak Style of Baskettball .

He Has A Great Mid Range Game & Can play off the Balll Fighting Threw Screens Ala a Reggie Miller-Rip Hamilton Type .

Positives : 

Every Team he has Been on he has been seen as a Francise Player & Every Team that Traded/s for him Thought as much .

He has Always Shown the Abilty to Do As Much as Well . Never Embarrising His Teamates(Unless it's a player who is Every one's Favorite Pinata like Keith Van Horn), His Francise or Himself Along the Way .

He Will never Be Confused with the New Breed of Players that look at Practice like a Free AIDS Give Away some of his Contemporary seem to act as Such . He Has Always Done what ever it Took for His Teams To Well & Making Sure there Offence Runs Well & He Stays out of Foul Trouble Enough To Play 40 Mins A Night since he at 50% Effecence is Better since most of the Players he had around him Would'nt give his Team as Good a Option as Marbury would be & that Could be Asseset To Marbury's "Wolverine" Like Abilty To Recuperate & Not Get Exausted 


Weaknesses :

He Tends to Play Defence in a Bull Ring , meaning he Plays Matador Defence Like a Gerald Wilkins or Mark Jackson .
Sure he has Good Hands to get some Steals But He Rarely Implies them , in Some Aspects he Should be Commended on that . Since you're Always Tawght Never To Reach on Defence & Allowing the Oppitsion past the Defender when then over Extend on Defence .

Problem is Marbury Does'nt Keep his Man in Front of him , Could this be From Looking at the Knicks of the late 80's & Early 90's when our Defensive Stratagy was to Funnell the Ball to Ewing & Helping out Once he got them in his Sights . 

Who Knows But the Fact is he Could Improve & Actullay has the Potenul to Improve Since he has the Talent to do So Still , That & He's a Below Average Rebounder at Best


Negitives :

Has has had the MisFourtune of Having 2 Teams Get instantly Worse from the Record they had the Previous Season & Both Times he was a Replacing the PG who was the Teams Catalist , while he was going in touted as a Better Option then the PG he was Replacing .

He Also had the Reputation of Being a Ball Hog , Selfish , Disgrunteled & Even a Cancer on Every Team he's been on .

Appears to Only Go All out on the Offencive End While Conserving his Energy on the Defencive End , Case in point Tyron Lue looking like Isiah Thomas in that Come from Behind Hawks Win in Atlanta late last Season .


Thanks in Advance for you Thoughtful Resopnses


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Credit is due...*

You must work out your fingers, man. I appreciate your connection to Marbury but your views are more than slightly revisionistic while also not very objective. There have been plenty of guys that could get to the hole as well as him...I think the AI fans might disagree with you as well. You alibi all the failures he has had but never once asked why do teams struggle with him? He is NOT a great shooter...I have not ever seen him come off a pick like rip...he is just plain lazy on defense..and his 'mates don't like him for the most part. If he was truly as good as you seem to think he is, he'd never be traded so much. Guys love his scoring ability and raw assist stats and get seduced. Once he'd there, they can't wait to get him gone. Think IT would make that trade agin? Doubt it...that's why he is ON RECORD as saying Marbury is not untouchable, which is a reverse in field from earlier statements. I could prolly think of 10 pg I'd rather have, including some from this draft. Like I said...I respect your view but find it to be very subjective, IMO.


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

I never got the Who Trade Asspect people Get Traded . Shaqs beeen traded 1 fewer time then Marbury . Chris Webber Has Been Traded as much as Marbury As well as Chuncey Billups . Other Notable Players that been Traded Around Alot Bob McAdoo-Maurice Lucuas-Mark Jackson-Dennis Rodman . Hell Even Wilt Chamberlain was Traded 4 Times in a Era When Players Never Moved . So I Just never Brought into the He Gets Bounced around alot Arguement


I Said under 6'6 210 Marbury is the Best at Getting to the Hole with the Attributes I listed . I Would Say Iverson is the Best at Sub 6'3" 190 LBS & Besides Iverson does'nt have all of the Skills I Listed to the Level Marburys is At . 


No he is Not a Great Shooter Neither is Anyone Else in the NBA outside of 15 to 20 players most of Whome you would'nt want on your team like a Fred Hoiberg-Eric Piakowki-Travis Hansen Type . No instead he's a Very Good Shooter ( I would say he's the Equal of Rip Hamilton has more Range & Besides he also has to get others Involved Rip Does'nt ) & that part of his game really Cant be Knocked


You Do however have a Big Chip to Use in the Fact he Play's Lackluster Defence & is a Sub par Rebounder both is True & he Should be Dogged for That & pretty that Alone as far as I Was Concerened


alphadog you Asked me


> You alibi all the failures he has had but never once asked why do teams struggle with him?


 So I Reask you 2 Questions in Reverese from which you Asked me . in Hopes to Ansering your question


1 : I Thought I Answered Why Teams Struggled with Him & Prospered with him in Each of the Various Team Paragraphs as too why that Team Struggled with him & Had a Turnaround without him .

2 : & To me this Question Goes not only to You But the Entire Board & Thusly the Entire Human Population of Capable thinking people . 

What is the Difference Betweeen A Excuse & a Reason , Also Why would you of the bat Say it's a Excuse & Not a Reason (If they Turn out to be Similar things) Since Excuse Sounds More Harsh While Reason Sounds more Positive ?


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## krsticfan325 (May 31, 2005)

As a New Jersey Net fan who experienced quite a bit of Stephon, its obvious to me that any team run by Stephon Marbury that isn't the NBA dream team will never win a championship. It is something that cannot be denied. You will tell me to look at how he's leg and leg with Jkidd in terms of assists, but that only means so much. He doesn't make those critical passes, and is more self absorbed with chucking too many bad shots. As if that is bad enough, he will be complemented by Jamal Crawford, who is great for an And1 mixtape but not good for much else but wild shots and chucking. And manning the three role will be Quentin Richardson, who opposed to conventional wisdom is really a below average shooter who wouldn't average half as many points as he did with less shots. The rest of the team is an absolute mess. It consists of a bunch of overpaid undersized forwards, a hard working Michael Sweetney who will never be better than an above average player, and a tweener as a 2005 draft pick.

Point is, the Knicks are already tens of millions over the cap and continue to add unnecessary, useless players with giant contracts such as Mo Taylor and Malik Rose while giving up cheaper, useful players such as Nazr Mohammed. Isiah Thomas is a joke of an executive and has single handedly turned the Knicks franchise down the drain. There is no way that he could possibly escape ridding the Knicks of all these contracts, which will make it more difficult for them to have a crack at building for the future.

I almost feel bad for you guys, because the Knicks are right now in a mess that is going to take a decade to get out of at this current pace.


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

You make it Sound like Isiah Created this Mess . Let's get it Stright here ED TAPSCOTT Created this mess & Scott Layden Did nothing but Compound it . Isiah has Always goten More Talen then he Treaded Back & Have made a Habit of Aqireing Picks more so then he's Traded Away . That Coupled with the Fact He Has a History of Drafting Well Damon Stoudimire Was a ROY , Marcus Camby was a top 3 ROY Candidate & Tracey McGrady Blossemed into a top 10 NBA Talent . While as a Coach/GM with the Pacers he manged to Develope Jermaine O'neal & Work out a Trade for Ron Artest & Brad Miller . While Drafting Jamaal Tinsely for that Club . So To me Isiah Thomas Has never Proven to be Inept as a GM . Now if you Want to talk about Terrible GM's Bring up our Priovious 2 , Along with the GM's of the Clippers-Warroirs-Wizards & the Hawks as some of the more Inept ones . Isiah doe's not belong on such a List .


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

Quills, wecome to the board. Now please if you're going to write such enormous posts, use the spell check I can barely make out what you are saying most of the time.


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

I Don't Spell that Bad & This Site has a Spellcheck ? I Never did Manage to Ever Know how to use it .


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

Quills said:


> I Don't Spell that Bad & This Site has a Spellcheck ? I Never did Manage to Ever Know how to use it .


It does or you could use open office and spell check it that way either way I'm sorry I mean you seem like a passionate dude I just can't take the way you write.


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

"Open Office" Whats that a Porn Site , Truth Betold The Only thing I ever Used the Computer/Internet for was for Video Games & Pornogrophy , Keppin in Mind I Had a Computer Since Commador 64 & the Internet Since Prodigy . Priot to a few Weeks ago


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## krsticfan325 (May 31, 2005)

Quills said:


> You make it Sound like Isiah Created this Mess . Let's get it Stright here ED TAPSCOTT Created this mess & Scott Layden Did nothing but Compound it . Isiah has Always goten More Talen then he Treaded Back & Have made a Habit of Aqireing Picks more so then he's Traded Away . That Coupled with the Fact He Has a History of Drafting Well Damon Stoudimire Was a ROY , Marcus Camby was a top 3 ROY Candidate & Tracey McGrady Blossemed into a top 10 NBA Talent . While as a Coach/GM with the Pacers he manged to Develope Jermaine O'neal & Work out a Trade for Ron Artest & Brad Miller . While Drafting Jamaal Tinsely for that Club . So To me Isiah Thomas Has never Proven to be Inept as a GM . Now if you Want to talk about Terrible GM's Bring up our Priovious 2 , Along with the GM's of the Clippers-Warroirs-Wizards & the Hawks as some of the more Inept ones . Isiah doe's not belong on such a List .


Scott Layden did not create this mess. He did not continue to add millions of dollars in salary through useless players. He pretty much did nothing, but through his doing nothing, the Knicks were still as good as the 2004 Knicks. Isiah has not made a single good move since he has become the GM of the Knicks. The Maurice Taylor and Malik Rose moves are just laughable, and giving up Mohammed was a complete joke.


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

Layden was The one Who pulled the Trigger on the Ewing Deal , Which Brought on the Contracts of Luc Longley-Shanden Anderson & Howard Eisley it Was Scott Layden Who Threw a Max MLE Contract at the Feet of Clareance Weatherspoon . It Was Scott Layden Who Fail to Notify the Legue Offices in the Appropriate Time Frame To get a Max Level Medical Exemption for Larry Johnson when we could of Gotten one . It Was Scott Layden Who Failed to use a MLE Medical Exemption he Got for Luc Longley & Turn it into Anything instead Sitting on our most Valuable Asset at the Time untill it Expired . It was Scot Layden that Traded a Often Injured though Structurly Sound Younger Marcus Cambey & A Draft Pick that turned out to be Maynabner Hilliario for a 1st Time Injured But Structurly Unsafe Knee for a Player who at the Time Relied Soley on Athletisim in Antonio McDyess & 2 Rookies in Frank Williams & Maciji Lampe . Which Even at the Time was a Terrible Trade . 


No my Freind Scott Layden Did'nt Create This Mess . It Was Ed Tapscott Who Drafted Fredrick Weiss over Ron Artest & Signed Allan Houston to his Ridiculaous Contract Which where both laughable Moves at the Time & Even more So Now . He's the One Who Started it . Like I said Before

However Scott Layden Compounded that Mess to the 15th power With his moves & Like I said the Moves Isiah Thomas has made , has All been Positive one Way or Another Not Just Here in New York But For the Pacers & Raptors Prior to Us . Isiah Thomas Knows what he is Doing . CBA Not withstanding


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

krsticfan325 said:


> Scott Layden did not create this mess. He did not continue to add millions of dollars in salary through useless players. He pretty much did nothing, but through his doing nothing, the Knicks were still as good as the 2004 Knicks. Isiah has not made a single good move since he has become the GM of the Knicks. The Maurice Taylor and Malik Rose moves are just laughable, and giving up Mohammed was a complete joke.


Did NOTHING????????

Trading Camby and the 7 pick for Antonio Mcdyss is NOTHING?????????
The 7 pick was potentially Amare..

Did you happen to watch the NBA finals???Mohammed did NOTHING,and thats playing alongside Duncan..I like Naz,but he is an unskilled PF....

You like naz and pan Frye???


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## krsticfan325 (May 31, 2005)

truth said:


> Did NOTHING????????
> 
> Trading Camby and the 7 pick for Antonio Mcdyss is NOTHING?????????
> The 7 pick was potentially Amare..
> ...


At the time, that looked like an okay deal. I don't blame him for pulling the trigger on that. It turned out to haunt them, but Thomas has done nothing but compound the situation here.

Yeah, I happened to watch the NBA finals, and I didn't think Nazr did "nothing." He did the most important thing of all, give TD the chance to slide down to the four without getting Rasho minutes. He's a solid 10 point 6 rebound per game force and athletic, and he beats what the Knicks got in return for him by a MILE.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

krsticfan325 said:


> At the time, that looked like an okay deal. I don't blame him for pulling the trigger on that. It turned out to haunt them, but Thomas has done nothing but compound the situation here.
> 
> Yeah, I happened to watch the NBA finals, and I didn't think Nazr did "nothing." He did the most important thing of all, give TD the chance to slide down to the four without getting Rasho minutes. He's a solid 10 point 6 rebound per game force and athletic, and he beats what the Knicks got in return for him by a MILE.


If i am not mistaken we got the #30pick which turned out to be david lee plus malik rose..time will tell

And Naz was pitiful in the finals against a long big front line.5 points and 6 boards..against the suns he beat up on Shawn marion who plays the 4,but is really a 3..


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

*Re: Credit is due...*

Mo Taylor for anyone who isn't named Derek Anderson seems pretty absurd to me. He has a negative trade value, you'll have to wait until next year when he is an expiring contract to get something decent for him. 

I think the guy NY should go after this year is Troy Murphy. Golden State just drafted Ike Diogu and Chris Taft, and already have a promising Biedrins on their roster. Murphy must seem pretty overpaid to Mullin considering he is so horrible on defense. But he would be a good replacement for Kurt Thomas to run the pick-and-pop with Marbury, and is a top 5 rebounder in this league. Expiring contracts and possibly a young borderline prospect like Ariza could sound enticing to Mullin.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

*Re: Credit is due...*



Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> I think the guy NY should go after this year is Troy Murphy.... Expiring contracts and possibly a young borderline prospect like Ariza could sound enticing to Mullin.


Thanks for the suggestion, but, no.

I know a lot of us are overrating Ariza, but no way I trade the kid for that lug. Not a chance.

With the athleticism of the league today, the swing position is becoming one of the most important to be highly athletic at, and Ariza has many of the tools (including metally) to be good at both ends of the floor. I'm not making any declarations on how high his ceiling is, time will tell, but he's far and away the best prospect we've had in eons, and there's zero chance I'm giving that up to save GS a few bucks.

We gobble up bad contracts like Cheerios, but we ain't gonna give up our kid for the privilege.

PS, if Frye isn't ready to contribute on the pick and pop, the much maligned Mo Taylor is. The man is vastly overpaid and appears to be a stoner, but he's our best offensive PF and can easily give us all the offense Troy Murphy can.

Now if you have any good ideas on large and good defenders I'm all ears. :wink:


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

> Scott Layden did not create this mess. He did not continue to add millions of dollars in salary through useless players. He pretty much did nothing, but through his doing nothing, the Knicks were still as good as the 2004 Knicks. Isiah has not made a single good move since he has become the GM of the Knicks. The Maurice Taylor and Malik Rose moves are just laughable, and giving up Mohammed was a complete joke.


get out of my internets

Sure, layden didnt sign Houston for 100 million bucks. He didnt outbid himself by 30 million.

sure, he didnt trade ewing for what would end up as the big *** crappy contracts and crappier players Shandon Anderson and Howard Eisley (were still paying anderson if you didnt know)

Sure, he didnt trade chris childs and FIRST ROUND PICK for MARK JACKSON!

Sure, he didnt trade a FIRST ROUND PICK for OTHELLA HARRINGTON!

and please, the Dyess trade sucked. Just because it seemed good at the time doesnt make it good. Drafting Bowie seemed good at the time too. It didnt work, and it sucked. 

he traded all these first rounders for ****, leaving NO YOUTH at all, just veterans who are overpaid and SUCK. 

i mean, yeah, he did nothing to mess up the knicks.

we traded moochie f'in norris and drunked up baker for Taylor. and Taylor expires along with Allans big deal, so his contract doesnt bother me at all, since we will NEVER EVER have cap relief until allans gone.

then, we got two first rounders out of the two deals. Nazr Mohamed is a terrible defender, and folds under pressure. we cant keep this ****ty defenders around, especially when our guards cant keep their man in front of them. Malik aint that great, but he sure as hell plays much harder and plays way better D. those 2 first rounders were nice too. its nice to actually get pics instead of handing them away.

nets fans................................stay in your nets forum


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

A lot of people discuss Marbury like he is some singular talent in the NBA who is highly misunderstood by the fans and media, and in his defense people compare him to Garnett and Kobe. Be serious, Marbury isn't in either guy's domain. 

Then, these same fans, when asked about about guys like Walker or Francis will tell you, no thanks, they disgust them. But both are highly skilled and athletic players capable of taking over games, just like Marbury. However they are also have traits that are fundamentally flawed which turns off a lot of fans, GMs, and media, just like Marbury. I assure you Marbury's talents and situations are far more analogous to those guys then they are to the top 10 players in the game. When that is kept in perspectives things fall into place much more easily.

Then combine that with the fact that Marbury's social/leadership skills may be the worst of all of them and one starts to understand the plight he's in. Isiah thomas himself said the only reason he was able to get Steph was because he was "flawed" and that he couldn't turn it around in a few months, it's going to take some time. He also said Steph tried to "lead through intimidation", and people wouldn't want to criticize him even if to help him. And that when things start to go wrong, Steph checks out, he can't be reached. We've seen all of this occur here, let alone in NJ and to some degree Phoenix.

So what you have is a guy who's position on the floor requires as certain innate leadership which Steph does not possess; then he's often been in the situation of being the best on his team and made captain and put in another leadership role at which he fails; on top of that he's a very expensive player, especially whne you factor in we're paying Penny for the priviledge of paying Steph, plus all the picks and prospects we gave up; and on top of that his legs seem to have miles on them beyond their years (frequent massages while others scrimmage, two ankle operations, and currently "tendonitis" as the official explanation for bad knees).

So yeah, Marbury is a Francis/Walker caliber talent with personality issues and sore legs. It's okay if people like him, (he's a son of a *****, but he's our son of a *****), but please don't make it seem like he's this vastly underrated individual. Sure some people let their hate overflow, I'm accused of being one of them. But the man is an enigma, and not everybody likes enigmas as cornerstones of a franchise. 

Sure you can surround him with sufficient talent to win. But it probably needs to be talent like Shaq and Duncan, who also enable PGs like Derek Fisher and Avery Johnson to win.

*We do not allow masked cursing*


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

mind you this is a guy who rants on frye's athleticism and strength and has the name kristac..Go figure.


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## krsticfan325 (May 31, 2005)

truth said:


> mind you this is a guy who rants on frye's athleticism and strength and has the name kristac..Go figure.


Uhhh...Channing Frye will have a hard time being the player that Krstic was as a 21/22 year old rookie, let alone having anything close to the potential that he has for the future.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

krsticfan325 said:


> Uhhh...Channing Frye will have a hard time being the player that Krstic was as a 21/22 year old rookie, let alone having anything close to the potential that he has for the future.


you dot think Frye will average 10 points,5 boards and .84 blocks per game??


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## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

*Re: Credit is due...*

good read, i can see mo taylor traded for gadzuric. and us getting kwame somehow


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## krsticfan325 (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Credit is due...*



NYKBaller said:


> good read, i can see mo taylor traded for gadzuric. and us getting kwame somehow


Uh, not for anything, but can you think of one possible reason why the Bucks would ever do that trade? Mo Taylor is pretty much useless (and albeit expensive) at this stage of his career, and Gadzuric is an upcoming big man who really showed his potential last year.


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

Have you Ever Seen Mo Taylor Play ? Mind you I Hate him But he is if Nothing Else one of the Best Low Post Scorers in the League & he's kinda shaq like in the Box since you Can't Budge him . Granted outside of Scoring He Can't Do Jack Squats . But If Given the Ball & Time Mo Taylor Can Easiy score 20 pts in the NBA . Problem is he would'nt even get 4 rebs in 35 mins & Might foul out before he could get 20 . But he's definitly good for 17 easy , All he needs to be on is a Quality Team that can Show case his Abilty to Score in the Post . Like a Minnasota-Lakers-Dallas-Grizzles-Spurs-Pistons-Pacers-Miami Teams that can overcome is Defencive & Rebounding deficenceys & that could use an extra scoring option downlow .


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

Channing will have a better rookie year then krstic.

hes just a krstic nuthugger obviously, and a knicks hater. 

Taylors post game has been pretty bad lately actually


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

When was his Post game Bad for the Time he Got Playing time with Us . All Mo Taylor Did Was Score in the Post ? sure he might of been eratic coming off the Bench & not playing the Whole season & All but Mo Taylor did Score for us . lets not take that away from him .


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## Knicksfan3 (Jun 23, 2005)

I do agree that Mo Taylor is servicable and does have a decent post game, but you can't trade him straight up for Gadzuric. We would have to add something else in that trade possible. But I do agree with you Quills that he did not just sit and rot on the bench with the Knicks, he did what he could with the time he played. But he's not good enough for a straight up trade like that.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Knicksfan3 said:


> I do agree that Mo Taylor is servicable and does have a decent post game, but you can't trade him straight up for Gadzuric. We would have to add something else in that trade possible. But I do agree with you Quills that he did not just sit and rot on the bench with the Knicks, he did what he could with the time he played. But he's not good enough for a straight up trade like that.


Mos problem,and he not alone is CONDITIONING...Wait,let me rephrase that..He doesnt do any conditioning...The guy is talented,he just refuses to put in the work off the court..


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> So what you have is a guy who's position on the floor requires as certain innate leadership which Steph does not possess; then he's often been in the situation of being the best on his team and made captain and put in another leadership role at which he fails; on top of that he's a very expensive player, especially whne you factor in we're paying Penny for the priviledge of paying Steph, plus all the picks and prospects we gave up; and on top of that his legs seem to have miles on them beyond their years (frequent massages while others scrimmage, two ankle operations, and currently "tendonitis" as the official explanation for bad knees).


Well said Oak...And I am sure Lenny and Herb have told Zeke the very same...
This will be Zekes true test...I have no proble with the marbury trade...It mad all the sense in the world at the time....But H20 is never going to be vintageand Steph is a prisoner of is personality..An educated gamble is fine,but you have to know when to hold em and know when to fold em.We need a leader,not the self proclaimed "best point guard" in the NBA.Steph is an abrasive 2 guard stuck in a point guards body.Zeke has to suck it up and realise he will never get equal value.Call Marc Cuban and take on Terry and Stackhouse.They are short term deals,they could use him and I can not think of any other team that makes sense .Its the dawn of a new era.Pennys time is up and so should Stephs..It really now or never...


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

why does no one ever belive in Giving Steph a Break & Give him a Chance buy building a team suited to his needs . He's Never had that outside of his 1st 2 seasons in Minnasota & his 1st in Phownix & each time he was the Best player & leader on that team & the team did better then they had previously did .


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Quills said:


> why does no one ever belive in Giving Steph a Break & Give him a Chance buy building a team suited to his needs . He's Never had that outside of his 1st 2 seasons in Minnasota & his 1st in Phownix & each time he was the Best player & leader on that team & the team did better then they had previously did .


Quills,people make their own breaks..marbury has been on 4 teams already and yet to win a playoff series...hes not Wilt,Kareem or Shaq and we shoiuldnt be building a team around him..

Thats the real problem right there..Marbury is not a franchise player,and the sooner he gets it out of his head,the better off he will be...

And Quills,its clear Zeke is building a team NOT suited to marburys needs..Zeke is going for phoenix east...Frye,Nate,Q and possiblty Stro??

The handwriting is on the wall


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

Garnett won one Playoff Serries & Had a Spree who had some ensemblis of Prime Time Spree in him & Sam Cassell as well & that was the Only Reason why Garnett (Whome I feel is the best overall player in the NBA) has only gottter out the 1st himself once in his Carear & HE HAD TEAMS BUILT AROUND HIM BETTER THEN STEPH EVER DID .


You cant make you're own breaks when everyone else is catching theres (K-Mart-KVH-Jayson Williams-Amare-H20-JC) to name a Few , Players you relie on go down & you're Left "All Alone" what do you want a young PG to do , he's not a Wing or 7 ft tall & can have a great impact on the Game so what do you want Steph to do ?


I Disagree Steph is a Francise player , the problem it's hard to Build a Francise Around him . Kinda like it was hard to build around Isiah Thomas at 1st in Detroit but they stuck with it & it paid off . Now i'm not saying Steph is as good as Zeke & we'll win a Championship too . I'm not saying that . What I'm Saying is Isiah Thomas was given a Chance to have a Team built around him & Did Well . Steph is No Scrub by anymeans , so I feel if a Team lead by Gus Williams can win Achampionship . A team built around steph should at least get to the 2nd round of the playoffs if nothing else .


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

i would agree with people who say its hard to place marbury's talent, it is probably in the iverson/francis range and its extremely hard to build a team around that.

iverson needed all league defenders around him who needed him to score or be dominant with the ball to the point the other team left them alone to defend him. only that mix got him to title contender.

iverson has had his share of talent around him , but no scorers seem to be able to truly coexist with him.

no one has quite found the correct mix for francis or marbury, they both like to function with a 2 guard who is a scorer as well (francis with mobley and marbury with kittles and crawford) where as iverson was at his best with a big point guard who could defend 2's. But if i had to guess they both need big front lines to play prime time defense allowing them and their backcourt mate to do the bulk of the scoring. Isiah thomas needed essentially the same type of team around him to make the pistons great.

another thing is also important with marbury he is a positive force on his team at least immediately.

when the t'wolves traded him they were 12-7 , they finished that season 13-18.

while the nets were 3-16 when marbury got to them they finished 13-18.

the knicks were 14-21 when marbury got to them and finished out the year 25-22 while the suns despite JJ and Amare healthy and emerging finished 16-32 after starting 12-22. while people talk about how his teams do without him , its also important to notice what teams get for him.

the wolves terrell brandon and the 6th pick in the draft, which the nets definitely could have used. (wally szczerbiak)

the nets got jason kidd for stephon

with the cap space of marbury and that penny who is worthless than one in nba circles they got steve nash and Q, 

its not hard to be better when you get this kind of help.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

disgruntledKNICKfan said:


> another thing is also important with marbury he is a positive force on his team at least immediately.
> 
> when the t'wolves traded him they were 12-7 , they finished that season 13-18.
> 
> ...


I think there's some truth to that, but I also think it's true that he wears out his welcome rather quickly. Take last season. I think on Marbury's strengths we got to 16-13 - but then we fell precipitously after that on his weaknesses. He became uncoachable and told coaches their defensive assignments "stink", (which is why Isiah later came out and told Marbury he was "playing like the worst defensive guard in the league"), he gave a speech during practice on self sacrifice, then went for a massage while the others scrimmaged, He got in a near brawl with KT and and half the team sided with Kurt, he made his "I'm the best" comments and then the team self destructed before backing him up... and all the loses mounted.

Marbruy is a very good scorer, a good passer but an average at best playmaker, a disinterested defender, and a troublesome locker room companion.

Taken together, that will get you some wins, and it will get you some losses. It's just not worth the pricetag.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

son of oakley said:


> I think there's some truth to that, but I also think it's true that he wears out his welcome rather quickly.
> 
> Taken together, that will get you some wins, and it will get you some losses. It's just not worth the pricetag.


The Knicks lacked cemistry ever since he arrived.I respect the guys talents,as I do Francis and AI,but they are impossible to build around..Dont think for a moment Francis isnt available,and if there was a generous offer made years ago AI would have been gone from Philly

Lets forget about Francis as he has been trouble from draft day.

AI couldnt get along with Larry brown..Think about it..Look at the Pistons and the Spurs..Great cohesiveness,respect and they buy into the coaches system...

Do you think for a moment Steph will buy into a system??AI?????????

Its no longer about talent.The Knicks are getting younger and Zeke is obviosly drafting quality players and good people...

Marbury is not,never has and never will be a leader.He doesnt bring teams together,he divides them...

Its not always about talent


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## ERAFF (Jun 27, 2005)

Quills said:


> Have you Ever Seen Mo Taylor Play ? All he needs to be on is a Quality Team that can Show case his Abilty to Score in the Post . Like a Minnasota-Lakers-Dallas-Grizzles-Spurs-Pistons-Pacers-Miami Teams that can overcome is Defencive & Rebounding deficenceys & that could use an extra scoring option downlow .


Lakers, Dallas, Spurs, Pistons, Pacers, Miami: He would NEVER< NEVER<NEVER!!!!!!! get off the bench for any of those Coaches. ....He cannot play the way he wants to play for a good team. Guys who are only effective with the ball in their hands(TT, Fat MO, Jamal) don't get to play for good teams and great coaches until they change their acts. Let me add that I doubt that Jerry West would ever put him on a Roster(not for the purpose of playing him, and I doubt that Minnesota would want him.


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## ERAFF (Jun 27, 2005)

re: Fat Mo---

Lakers, Dallas, Spurs, Pistons, Pacers, Miami: He would NEVER< NEVER<NEVER!!!!!!! get off the bench for any of those Coaches. ....He cannot play the way he wants to play for a good team. Guys who are only effective with the ball in their hands(TT, Fat MO, Jamal) don't get to play for good teams and great coaches until they change their acts. Let me add that I doubt that Jerry West would ever put him on a Roster(not for the purpose of playing him, and I doubt that Minnesota would want him.


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## ERAFF (Jun 27, 2005)

touble posting!
Fat Mo would never play for good teams


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

Houston shopped Mo Taylor to every team in the league. All they could get was Derek Anderson (an equally bad contract) and then Isiah Thomas swooped down from the heavens and gave us some cap relief.


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## Keith Closs (May 13, 2003)

Steph is a very talented player flawed leader and decision maker..

i think u can win a tilte with him IF hes the second or third option..

him as our franchise player isnt gonna lead us to a title..

u dont build youre team around scoring point guards..


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Keith Closs said:


> Steph is a very talented player flawed leader and decision maker..
> 
> i think u can win a tilte with him IF hes the second or third option..
> 
> ...


Exactly...I just dont know if he has the mentality to be the second or third option..To make it worse is D sucks


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## Knicksfan3 (Jun 23, 2005)

truth said:


> Exactly...I just dont know if he has the mentality to be the second or third option..To make it worse is D sucks


Thats the thing, he will never be able to get in his mind that he might be the second or third option on the team. That is why he is not a true PG and that is why no team will ever win a title with him as their PG.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Quills, I agree with you on some points in your first post but do you mind not using capital letters on random words? It makes it hard to see where your sentences end and begin.

The argument between Layden and Thomas is quite pointless. So far, both of them sucked. The team was a mess when Layden was fired and it's still a mess today as we speak. 

With the amount of money that Knicks organization has and the type of city New York is, there is no reason for the Knicks to be mediocre for such a long time. I would have to place the blame on the owner and the gm on this one. I can't remember the last time when Knicks had a championship caliber team. A team that when you look at the roster on paper, you would think that they had a chance to go deep in the playoffs.

On the Marbury issue, I agree with the comparison of him with Iverson and Francis. All 3 are very talented players, but when placed into the point guard role, they will limit their team's potential. I can't think of the last shoot-first point guard that played on a championship team or on a team that appears to be finals bound year after year. They are all shooting guards trapped in a point guard's body. Having one of those on your team may seem like a good idea from time to time, but in the long run, you're better off with a pass-first player at the point.

Back to Isiah Thomas, I think he's doing too much as a GM. Being the Knicks GM at this stage shouldn't be that difficult of a job. Just look at what Chicago has done with their team, they stocked themselves with young talents through the draft and did not try to trade for any short term fix. Granted, they've made some mistakes over the years with their picks and the unfortunate Jay Will accident, but I still think that's the correct way of building a team from scratch. For the Knicks, it could be the same thing. Stop making any trades unless it's a trade that lets you unload overpaid players that's past their prime and always draft for the best player available. The Bulls' plan may not have been perfectly executed, but at least they have a plan and a team that's not tied up by major cap problems that will limit their potential. Right now, Isiah seems like he is just throwing random pieces together and hoping the team will sneak into the playoffs, you need a long term plan if you want to go anywhere further.


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