# Paxson’s Draft Philosophy



## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

Paxson’s Draft Philosophy,

This is Paxson’s 2nd draft and it seems to me there are still a lot of things he could do. If last year is any guide I think we can assume too things. (1) he will draft for positional need (why he drafted hinrich last year); and (2) he puts a very high emphasis on toughness and attitude (much the way he played).

It seems to me that the team needs a swing player and it looks like iggy or Deng. Deng is a little talker (6’8” vs. 6’7” in shoes), both have very long reach (7’1” vs. 6’11”), Iggy seems to be a little better athlete, and iggy seems to be more a SG who can play SF while Deng is clearly going to play SF.

I think the real issue is who is tougher and going to fit into Paxson’s philosophy that seems to me to be very similar to that of Joe Dumar’s. Defensive, hustle, rebounding, and team play win games. I also think if Deng can not work out for the bulls with other players Paxson may see that as a problem and will either trade down or just pick the player he wants at 3 and call it a day. Remember he passed on Peitrus last year because he did not see him personally work out. If Deng doesn’t want to put it on the line don’t be surprised if he is not a bull next year.

david


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Good post, but I think comparing Paxson to Dumars is inaccurate...

I saw Dumars on TV the other day clearly say, "I don't look for boy scouts"....

That seems to be the opposite of Pax...


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

Pax also doesn't waste a draft pick on a player that fights for garbage time minutes.

Hmmmm...Melo or Darko.....What to do....


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> Pax also doesn't waste a draft pick on a player that fights for garbage time minutes.
> 
> Hmmmm...Melo or Darko.....What to do....


You're right, Pax is just a guy who passes on the oppurtunity to trade up for Wade...


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> You're right, Pax is just a guy who passes on the oppurtunity to trade up for Wade...


So we know that for sure? Or are you gathering this info from a writer? Perhaps they wanted more than we were willing to give up.


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

This is ONE reason why I dont post here much. The frigging Pax bashing is really assanine. The guy has had ONE SEASON so far, and yet many here want him gone already.

He's won championships, played with the GREATEST player of all time, yet you all want him strung up from a tree.

It's really annoying.

If Paxson had passed on Melo and drafted Darko, you would all be murdering him. Yet you praise Dumars?


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> So we know that for sure? Or are you gathering this info from a writer? Perhaps they wanted more than we were willing to give up.


I guess we can't take Toronto's former GM's word for it...

Plus some of the sources who post around here that the trade was discussed...

It's old news and passed but for all you know Darko could end up being a great and even though I disagree with how they handled his development this year, it's way to soon to label him a bust.

I don't see how he can be a bust after 1 year and most of it was spent on the bench...

Ebi is going to be amazing, but I guess he's going to be a bust too...


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

"Plus some of the sources who post around here that the trade was discussed..."

:laugh: 

Pardon me....:laugh:


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

"Ebi is going to be amazing, but I guess he's going to be a bust too..."

No, Ebi will be a frigging bust as well.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> This is ONE reason why I dont post here much. The frigging Pax bashing is really assanine. The guy has had ONE SEASON so far, and yet many here want him gone already.
> 
> He's won championships, played with the GREATEST player of all time, yet you all want him strung up from a tree.
> ...


Dumars' team is in the Finals.

Paxson's team went from 30 wins to 23.

Dumars' team has no NBDL players.

Enough said.


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> Dumars' team is in the Finals.
> ...


No. But what his team has, is a bunch of hard working, bust their asses types that play D. Something Pax has been trying to get going here in Chicago since he took charge.

Nuff said.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> "Plus some of the sources who post around here that the trade was discussed..."
> 
> :laugh:
> ...


RL being one of them...

<FONT COLOR=ff0000>Sorry I'll take his word plus the Toronto GM's who talked about it publicly before I take yours...

At least you're consistent, your posts are the same basura here that they are at RealGM....</FONT><FONT COLOR=0000ff>Absolutely uncalled for. -- DaBullz</FONT>


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> RL being one of them...
> ...


This is why your not welcome at many sites. Instead of talking about the subject, you insult me.


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

<FONT COLOR=0000ff>You're right about Arenas' post being insulting, but there's no point in escalating things. -- DaBullz</FONT>


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Comparing Dumars to Paxson is just crazy. Its like comparing Japan to Nigeria, they are worlds apart. But before I get to that, why is it that everyone remembers Pax has some gritty tough player? What I remember was a guy who never drove to the basket, sat on the outside and when the ball was thrown to him, he drained it. I guess he is no tougher then Peja, who most people think is weak. Paxson was no Jerry Sloane, at all

But lets compare Dumars to Pax

Dumars came in and the FIRST THING HE DID, was sign Tony Ronzone away from Detroit to run his international staff. They are extrememly well funded there and have a presence everywhere. Pax has paid some lip service to the international game, but has done zilch about it. Say what you want about Krause, but atleast he would go frequently to watch these players. Darko is going to be a hell of a player, no matter what Shinky says. Dont believe me? Ask Ben Wallace. And they have Delfino in the wings. And Delfino is basically another lottery pick

Dumars paid attention to the cap. Dumars would never have taken on a contract like JYDs just to get rid of Rose. They dealt Stack for Rip cause they didnt want to pay Stack. They always pay attention to the cap. They let contracts run out and only deal for shorter deals, rather then longer ones (Cliff for Sura)

Dumars doesnt care what side of the tracks you are from. Lets ask ourselves this. Would Pax, EVER, take a chance on a guy like Rasheed Wallace? Assuming he had the money, would he have pursued Lamar Odom? I dont think it takes too much of a rocket scientist to assume he wouldnt. Dumars will. 

Dumars will go for the big name coach. He saw Larry Brown available and made the choice to go for him. Pax had to know BC was gone this summer and allowed many big name coaches to slip through his fingers. We have our Skiles fans here, but no one could call him a proven commodity. If Phil Jackson were to become available this summer, and was open to coming back, do you think Pax would have the audacity to fire Skiles for Jackson? No is the answer to that. Dumars however would. 

Dumars doesnt have an untradable list. Look, we won 23 games and we are already labeling Curry and Hinrich as untradable. Thats crazy. No player in the history of this franchise, save Jordan (people around here think Hinrich is the best player in Bulls history) was untradable. Dumars would never allow that to be said about any of his players. Not even now. Look, he openly dealt Grant Hill. He dealt Stackhouse, after they won 50 games. He is rumored to be interested in Tmac this summer with Rip, potential finals MVP Rip, as the bait. If Rip isnt untradeable, should anyone on our roster be?

These GMs are miles apart. One team got worse this year and is in cap hell for 2-4 years. The other team is in the finals, with 2 young up and coming stars (Darko and Delfino) and a solid young core (Rip, Billups, Prince), and the team in the finals, is actually under the cap. Thats crazy. Its ok to support Paxson, but anyone who dares compare him to Dumars at this point totally has missed the point


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Comparing Dumars to Paxson is just crazy. Its like comparing Japan to Nigeria, they are worlds apart. But before I get to that, why is it that everyone remembers Pax has some gritty tough player? What I remember was a guy who never drove to the basket, sat on the outside and when the ball was thrown to him, he drained it. I guess he is no tougher then Peja, who most people think is weak. Paxson was no Jerry Sloane, at all
> 
> But lets compare Dumars to Pax
> ...


Amazing post.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

Did i miss something here. I started this to discuss paxson's philosphy on players. That i think is similar to Dumar's, specifically i think he wants Defensive, hustle, rebounding, and team play win games.

No where did i compare paxson and dumars in terms of accomplishments. 


I do agree with one thing, i see a real lack of respect lately on the site and people reading want they want and not what is written. I never compared paxson to dumars i just stated i think they have a similar philosphy. As for wade i has sorry paxson could not get him but he did try and to make my point wade is the kind of player paxson wants, tough. And i think he will put a real primium on toughness in this draft.

To my good friend rlucus, you are right that paxson was never in the lane that much on O, but he was very phyicial and tough on defensive and always draw and ton of offensive fouls and i consdered him pretty tough defensive player.

david


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>giusd</b>!
> Did i miss something here. I started this to discuss paxson's philosphy on players. That i think is similar to Dumar's, specifically i think he wants Defensive, hustle, rebounding, and team play win games.
> 
> No where did i compare paxson and dumars in terms of accomplishments.
> ...


My response wasnt directed at you in the least bit David. See any of the Shinky responses


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

Yo i kniow that rlucas and as always i respect your opinion. My comments were in response to some of the other things i read.

Be well david


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

Go figure, RLucas defending some of the Euro-players.

This is news....


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> Go figure, RLucas defending some of the Euro-players.
> 
> This is news....


Shinky, this response is typical of you as well. as long as fans like you support not putting maximum effort into the Bulls, then guys like Pax and Reinsdorf will continue half assing it while the fans buy the tickets.


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

You just keep spewing forth that Euro garbage like always, RLucas.


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

All I want from my Bulls team, is hard work and heart. That's it. And that is what Pax and Skiles are trying to accomplish here. Anybody can see that. 

This is a winning ideal. It's working in Detroit, no?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> You just keep spewing forth that Euro garbage like always, RLucas.


let me guess, youd rather have Curry and Kirk over Peja, Dirk, Yao, Kirilenko. Your generalizations are laughable. 

Also for the record, would Tyson Chandler get any minutes on Det right now? The answer is no. And you call him a good player and Darko a bust? Arent you guilty of something here?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> All I want from my Bulls team, is hard work and heart. That's it. And that is what Pax and Skiles are trying to accomplish here. Anybody can see that.
> 
> This is a winning ideal. It's working in Detroit, no?


Hard work starts from above. And we dont do nearly enough scouting. We spend our time in the NBDL, not enough time in europe, S America and asia. They ignore it while teams like Det, San, and Sac get rich there. So should we blame Erob for that as well?  You need a lesson in what hard work is about. Its called turning over every stone, wherever that stone is, to find a great player


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> let me guess, youd rather have Curry and Kirk over Peja, Dirk, Yao, Kirilenko. Your generalizations are laughable.
> ...


A healthy Tyson Chandler would most certainly be in the rotation on Detroit.

And a healthy Tyson Chandler is HOPEFULLY what we are going to have for next season.

You will change your tune once we Ty starts nabbing those 14 point and 12 rebound games.


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Hard work starts from above. And we dont do nearly enough scouting. We spend our time in the NBDL, not enough time in europe, S America and asia. They ignore it while teams like Det, San, and Sac get rich there. So should we blame Erob for that as well?  You need a lesson in what hard work is about. Its called turning over every stone, wherever that stone is, to find a great player


Just give the man more than ONE frigging season before you hang him, ok? I mean, he did GREAT in drafting Kirk. Just give him a chance.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> A healthy Tyson Chandler would most certainly be in the rotation on Detroit.
> ...


Chandler would not start in front of Wallace and Wallace. He would be hard pressed to supplant Mehmut Okur, Elden Campbell and Corliss Williamson. So he is essentially, in his 3rd year, at best, a 10 minute player on the current Pistons. So how dare you call him a good player, in his 3rd year, and Darko some Euro bust in his rookie year? Isnt that slightly hypocritical?


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## comptons (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> Pax also doesn't waste a draft pick on a player that fights for garbage time minutes.
> 
> Hmmmm...Melo or Darko.....What to do....


Do you think Melo would have blocked Miller? Do you think Melo would have blocked Harrington? Do you think Melo would have gotten those 3 offensive rebounds in a row in game 2 of the finals? Do you think Melo would have given Redd, Mason, Jefferson, Artest, and Kobe defensive fits? 

Prince is a much better fit with the Pistons. Also, Melo holds the ball on offense and ball movement is the Pistons biggest key. Melo needs to be a volume shooter to be effective.
Ben and Chauncey both said Darko is the future of this team. Joe made the right pick.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> "Ebi is going to be amazing, but I guess he's going to be a bust too..."
> 
> No, Ebi will be a frigging bust as well.


If you don't know what you are talking about please don't start spouting off nonsense. Why is Ebi going to be a bust? 

Why do I even bother?


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## comptons (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Amazing post.


Yes it was.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>comptons</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes it was.


thank you Arenas and Comptons


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## Aesop (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> (people around here think Hinrich is the best player in Bulls history)


Although I suspect this was a hyperbolic comment, it is absurd. No poster would rate Hinrich over Jordan. Statements like this really detract from the point you are trying to make.


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## Kramer (Jul 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>giusd</b>!
> Paxson’s Draft Philosophy,
> 
> This is Paxson’s 2nd draft and it seems to me there are still a lot of things he could do. If last year is any guide I think we can assume too things. (1) he will draft for positional need (why he drafted hinrich last year); and (2) he puts a very high emphasis on toughness and attitude (much the way he played).


I don't think you can assume that Pax will draft based on positional need. Last year we needed a 3 (Hayes or Pietrus maybe) and he drafted Kirk. Although a backup PG was also needed at the time, a 3 was clearly our most pressing need. We also picked up Mario Austin (a PF??? surprise!) even though we had Lonny/Tyson/Fizer/Donyell. If anything, maybe we should just count on Pax drafting the typical PG/PF Bulls combo. If the draft were McDonald's, the Bulls would always order the #1 and the #4. That being said, if Pax doesn't draft a wing player with our first pick this year, I'll be freaking stunned (I'm sure he'll manage to draft a PG and PF also).

Mods - Please let me know if I should be banned for sticking to the original thread topic and not insulting anyone.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> If you don't know what you are talking about please don't start spouting off nonsense. Why is Ebi going to be a bust?
> ...


I read in a post linked to on the NBA draft forum that Ebi was left unprotected for the expansion draft. That's got to be false. Any word on this?


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

Blockbuster post, rlucas. :clap: 

Doe D. absolutely deserves props for the Ronzone hire. Assuming Darko and Delfino are the goods, the Pistons in effect have two lottery picks joining their roster next season. And one cannot find fault with the overall job he has done. Any team that makes it to the Finals without completely mortgaging their future is doing something right.

HOWEVER,

I don't feel all of your praise for Dumars and criticism for Pax is entirely justified.

You don't know that Dumars wouldn't have taken on a contract like JYD to get rid of Rose. Teams aren't exactly lined up looking for overpaid, 30-something players sliding rapidly down the downslope of their career. Once the decision was made to get rid of Rose-- a decison that I believe was absolutely necessary-- I'm sure Pax took the best deal he could find out there. While neither JYD or AD are the type of player to make an immediate on-court difference, I believe both players brought an attitude to the team that Pax wants that we have yet to see pay dividends in the young players.

You don't know that Pax would never take a chance on a guy like Rasheed Wallace. The fact is Pax has not yet been in the position where he needs one impact player to put his team over the top into the Finals. He saw it pay off when Krause brought Rodman in-- I believe if he were to find himself in a similar situation he would consider all options. But young, rebuilding teams do not need to take such risks. Doing so and being wrong can set rebuilding back years.

I don't believe Pax "had to know" BC was gone that first summer. You might recall the Bulls finished the 02-03 season on a very high note under Cartwright and optimism was running very high (including on this board). And besides, do you for one minute believe coaches like Larry Brown are at all interested in coming to Chicago? When was the last time _any_ lottery team landed a big-name coach? Let's be realistic. Even Dumars had to "settle" for then-unproven Rick Carlisle as his first coach. Once he had a few years to improve the team and the Pistons has proven themselves as a playoff contender, then and only then was he was in position to go for a Larry Brown.

I don't believe Paxson has an untradable list. I believe some posters here do, but since when are the two one and the same? And exactly when has Paxson given any indication that anyone on the roster is untradable? The answer is never. In fact, I believe he has indicated exactly the opposite-- that he will explore _every possible option_ to improve the Bulls.

Dumars didn't "openly trade" Grant Hill. Grant Hill was leaving as a free agent and Dumars was extremely lucky Orlando did not realize all they had in Ben Wallace and were therefore agreeable to using Ben as a throw-in to get Hill. There is not a single person that follows the NBA that knew the Pistons were getting the better end of that deal at the time.

And, of course you didn't mention some of Dumar's stumbles. Shall I bring up Mateen Cleaves and Rodney White? I don't hold these picks against Dumars as I believe no GM can possibly be right on every move he makes. How about Billy Owens? Torraye Braggs? Not every move he has made has turned to gold.

Bottom line... Paxson deserves more time until we strap him to the guillotine. I'm pretty sure if you look at Dumar's record after one year on the job, you would find a pretty shaky first year for him as well.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> I read in a post linked to on the NBA draft forum that Ebi was left unprotected for the expansion draft. That's got to be false. Any word on this?


Ya that's impossible....


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Ya that's impossible....


http://forums.warriorsworld.net/main/msgs/651880.phtml

Here's the link. It must be false, they only have 7 protected. :laugh:


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> http://forums.warriorsworld.net/main/msgs/651880.phtml
> ...


Ebi was left unprotected...

Apparently Minnesota wants Earl Watson, and they're going to draft him and send him to Minnesota, and for that Minnesota exposed Ebi as compensation for that...

What the hell is McHale thinking?


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Ebi was left unprotected...
> ...


Wow, that's what's going on?  Bad move McHale. Although I think Watson will be excellent for Minny, there must have been a better way to get him.


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## eljam (Aug 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> Blockbuster post, rlucas. :clap:
> 
> Doe D. absolutely deserves props for the Ronzone hire. Assuming Darko and Delfino are the goods, the Pistons in effect have two lottery picks joining their roster next season. And one cannot find fault with the overall job he has done. Any team that makes it to the Finals without completely mortgaging their future is doing something right.
> ...


Kudos on your excellent post as well KneePad. 

People are juding Pax as if he's been on the job full time for years. While I tend to agree with RLucas' points about players that Pax would and wouldn't go after, Pax has only been here for a short amount of time. Dumas has had some time to prove himself, it's only fair that Pax is allowed to show what type of job he can do.

Also, since this thread was talking about draft philosophies, why is a team that only won 23 games drafting for need and not the best player available? Regardless of what moves we make in free agency, are we good enough to draft for need in the Lottery?
True, our biggest need is a wing player who can shoot and play good perimeter D, and that player *might* be there in this lottery.

But, overall, for a team as bad as we are, a 'need' based philosophy in the draft doesn't quite fit, IMO.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Ebi was left unprotected...
> ...


Wow! I wonder what it would take to pry him from Charlotte if they take him.


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## Cochise (Apr 13, 2003)

You have to understand what it means to have your best players and best trade assets in the form of very young players. That straps Paxson (and not to mention he lost Jay Williams). It's much easier to trade Stackhouse than any of your young potential (future) or Jalen Rose. Let's not forget what Pax inherited. He inherited a team that forces you to wait excruciatingly for. 

And Tyson would certainly play more than 10 minutes on Detroit. Do you know how many offensive rebounds he'd get? He'd be second only to Ben Wallace in crashing boards. His rebounding alone would get him more playing time than any other 4 off their bench. And he'd get plenty of minutes in the first half when Sheed does a lot of sitting.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Why is it easier to trade stackhouse than rose? Seems to me they are quite similar players in what the contribute to a team.

Yet Detroit gets Rip for Stackhouse and we get AD for Rose.


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## Cochise (Apr 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> Why is it easier to trade stackhouse than rose? Seems to me they are quite similar players in what the contribute to a team.
> 
> Yet Detroit gets Rip for Stackhouse and we get AD for Rose.



What was Jalen's numbers before he was traded? 

Stackhouse was a recent all-star before the trade and he had a better contract.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> Why is it easier to trade stackhouse than rose? Seems to me they are quite similar players in what the contribute to a team.
> 
> Yet Detroit gets Rip for Stackhouse and we get AD for Rose.


as the Phoenix Suns announcers say every time they make a 3 pointer, SHAAAZAAAMMMMMMMM


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## Kramer (Jul 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Ebi was left unprotected...
> ...


McHale must think a little differently than you, because I can't imagine him letting a "superstar" go for Earl Watson. :laugh: Maybe McHale would've kept Ebi if he could shoot, dribble, or something like that... 

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=92158&highlight=nbudi


> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> (Insert Whammy Noise)
> Ebi could probably start for half of the teams in the league RIGHT NOW...
> ...


Ebi may not turn into an outright bust, but he is Darius Miles LITE. If he becomes a serviceable player, it will be strictly because of his athleticism. He is not going to be a superstar.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> Why is it easier to trade stackhouse than rose? Seems to me they are quite similar players in what the contribute to a team.
> 
> Yet Detroit gets Rip for Stackhouse and we get AD for Rose.


Over the next three years....

... Rose is owed about $48M on his deal
... Stack is owed about $22.5M on his deal

If they're really similar in what they contribute, it's pretty clear then that Jerry is over twice as valuable as Jalen. when you throw in the additional bad consequences owing to the salary cap, Rose is a pretty awful deal. You could buy Jerrys for Jalen and have money left over to burn.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kramer</b>!
> 
> McHale must think a little differently than you, because I can't imagine him letting a "superstar" go for Earl Watson. :laugh: Maybe McHale would've kept Ebi if he could shoot, dribble, or something like that...
> 
> ...


Hmmm, how does anyone actually know? the kid didnt play much, by design. But perhaps McHale is so scared of losing Hudson that they felt they couldnt get a backup PG any other way. If they had a first round pick, I am sure Ebi would be protected. Perhaps he is signalling that next year, they are going for it. But Ebi, atleast last year, appeared to be more then a one dimensional athlete. and last time I checked, Darius Miles was turning into a very good 3 for the Portland Trailblazers


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kramer</b>!
> 
> McHale must think a little differently than you, because I can't imagine him letting a "superstar" go for Earl Watson. :laugh: Maybe McHale would've kept Ebi if he could shoot, dribble, or something like that...
> 
> ...


Youch. 

Busted!!


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## Cochise (Apr 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> as the Phoenix Suns announcers say every time they make a 3 pointer, SHAAAZAAAMMMMMMMM




The both of you are sorely mistaken if you believe that Jalen this year had the same trade value as Stackhouse in his final year at Detroit.

You can even set aside the artificial inflation in value that Jordan placed on his tar-heel pal who he really wanted to play with. Jalen was a complete disaster for us this year and had a longer/worse contract than Stack did in his final year of Detroit.

Maybe if MJ was the Toronto GM and was a Wolverine we'd have gotten a better deal.


SHAAAAAAZAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMMM


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## thunderspirit (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> Why is it easier to trade stackhouse than rose? Seems to me they are quite similar players in what the contribute to a team.
> 
> Yet Detroit gets Rip for Stackhouse and we get AD for Rose.


considering what Rose's salary was -- and how many years it had to run -- we actually got a semblance of cap relief for it by getting AD and his one-year-shorter deal.

and before the trade, i heard a lot of crying about dumping Jalen for anything we could get (to your credit, DB, you weren't among that cacophany).

rl, good post. you too, kneepad.

while i may not be thrilled by the job Pax has done so far, i'm notably absent from DB's "Fire Paxson" club because i'm firmly in the camp of giving him the opportunity to succeed -- or fail -- with the kind of coach and players with which he wants to build this team.

i'm in agreement with the original post as far as the vision for the team. watching the Pistons dismantle the Lakers has been a revelation in the ultimate ambition Pax has for the team. Rose wouldn't have fit that image, and it's clear that the Bulls management has questioned, at various times, whether any of the three Cs do either. 

no, i don't think Pax is on a par with Dumars as a GM, but then it's a little tougher to tell, considering the assets with which Dumars had to work and the ones Pax had. we have to remember that he can't _just_ add players to the team; he has to make sure that he works within the NBA rules _and_ protect his boss' invesment. none of us have to care about the last, but Pax does, with every decision he makes.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Cochise</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here are the facts. Having Jalen around for one year was a +10 in the win column for us. Even Toronto went up in wins this year. Not having him, minus 7. he had value. But the real killer was losing Marshall. if you were to trade Marshall straight up you could have done better then either AD or JYD. How many double double guys are there in the NBA playing for the MLE and a short number of years? I refuse to believe Jalen had NEGATIVE value. 

SHAAAAAZZAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMM ( I had to make mine atleast one M longer then yours  )


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

the question for the board. What is the appropriate amount of time to give John Paxson before showing him the door?


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!I refuse to believe Jalen had NEGATIVE value.


Of course, Rose has negative value. Posters are saying Craw is worth between $5m to $8M a year on the market. Is Rose a $6M/year upgrade? No way.


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## Cochise (Apr 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Here are the facts. Having Jalen around for one year was a +10 in the win column for us. Even Toronto went up in wins this year. Not having him, minus 7. he had value. But the real killer was losing Marshall. if you were to trade Marshall straight up you could have done better then either AD or JYD. How many double double guys are there in the NBA playing for the MLE and a short number of years? I refuse to believe Jalen had NEGATIVE value.
> ...



That is an entirely different argument so I'll have to take back your Shaaaazaaaaammmmm. 

Jerry Stackhouse with the damning fact that Jordan wanted him badly had much more value than Jalen this year. It's even useless comparing the trades because Dumars was in a unique position to take advantage of MJ.

(Weren't we getting blown out with Jalen? Weren't Jalen's numbers embarassing for us this year? What was our winning percentage with Jalen this year?) 

You can argue that Pax could have gotten more but there's no way you can compare it with the unique situation of the Stack trade which was the argument I was making.

Shaaaazaaaaaaaaaammmmm.


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## thunderspirit (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Here are the facts. Having Jalen around for one year was a +10 in the win column for us. Even Toronto went up in wins this year. Not having him, minus 7. he had value. But the real killer was losing Marshall. if you were to trade Marshall straight up you could have done better then either AD or JYD. How many double double guys are there in the NBA playing for the MLE and a short number of years? I refuse to believe Jalen had NEGATIVE value.
> 
> SHAAAAAZZAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMM ( I had to make mine atleast one M longer then yours  )


as far as Jalen having negative trade value, you and i will just agree to disagree. i wasn't in favor of the deal because i didn't think we got enough, but as i read and watched and heard enough analysts say there was basically no market for Rose and the four years left on his deal, i started to believe it might have been the best we could do.



> the question for the board. What is the appropriate amount of time to give John Paxson before showing him the door?


JMSO, Pax gets a mulligan over last year's draft. i think the supposed deal with Toronto was dependent on the deal with Boston that went awry when JWill crashed his bike. as a result, i won't tar and feather him for "only" getting Hinrich instead of Wade.

a lot will hinge on June 24 this year. this draft means a bunch. from me he'll get through the end of next season before his seat gets warmer. without significant progress after the 05-06 season, i'd can him. (coincidentally, that gives a new GM a fair amount of cap room with which to work, huh?)


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> Of course, Rose has negative value. Posters are saying Craw is worth between $5m to $8M a year on the market. Is Rose a $6M/year upgrade? No way.


So we had to give Marshall a double double guy so we can have one less year of AD, who doesnt produce as much as Rose AND 3 more years of JYD (over Marshall that is)? Ouch. But hey, atleast we got Chris Jefferies. 

In a world where Antonie Walker and Antoine Jamison were dealt, with terrible deals, I find it very hard to believe that we turned over every stone in trading Rose.


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## Cochise (Apr 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> Of course, Rose has negative value. Posters are saying Craw is worth between $5m to $8M a year on the market. Is Rose a $6M/year upgrade? No way.



I have to think about it more but I could agree with you. Rose at the time he was traded was god-awful on the court on a bad team with a real bad contract. 

I mean, what do you expect when a team offers you a player with a stat line like 13 ppg 3 ast 3 reb on 38% shooting with absolutely no defense, a huge contract , and on pace to win 20 games? Shoot I think we had a better record % when the guy left.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Cochise</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


for this year, the difference was nil. Over the time of Roses tenure with the Bulls, it was better with him then without him, believe it or not. Also, lets remember that Rose broke his hand earlier in the year (or something like that) that absolutely affected his play. yet he still might have had the best game of a Bull this year in the win against NO. Again, I will say that someone would have given us something for him. Heck, Jerome James would have been better then AD or JYD.


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## Cochise (Apr 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> for this year, the difference was nil. Over the time of Roses tenure with the Bulls, it was better with him then without him, believe it or not. Also, lets remember that Rose broke his hand earlier in the year (or something like that) that absolutely affected his play. yet he still might have had the best game of a Bull this year in the win against NO. Again, I will say that someone would have given us something for him. Heck, Jerome James would have been better then AD or JYD.



Yes, over the time we were better with Jalen but so what? Teams aren't trading for past performance. 

The real argument should be -- was Jalen so bad that we had to trade him at his lowest trade value?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Cochise</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think a better question would be, who is more productive, particularly with what we got, AD or Rose? And then, not to beat a dead horse, realize that JYD had 3 more years (or was it 2?) over Marshalls deal. So in reality, while we gain a year on AD, we lose 3 years on JYD vs Marshall. Its my opinion that Rose is a better player then AD and Marshall is a better player then JYD. Yet, the trade didnt make them much better. But atleast they have that Marshall deal coming off the books in a years time


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

I was very much in favor of getting rid of rose but why marshell had to be included is beyond me. He was a big lose. Say thing with artest. the pacers wanted miller but we should have never added in artest or if we did we should have gotten harrington.

As for rose, if one looks when he was traded to the raptors they were a 500 ball club and after the all star break they had the worst record in the NBA (Ok maybe it was 2nd worst) and missed the playoffs.

Now i am not saying paxson got the best he could, because my guess is there may have been better trades to deal rose and we sure could have used marshell. But his contract is a killer and IMO he is a bad influence on the C's.

As i recall MJ always said the most talent bulls team he played on was his 2nd year but they had awful chemistiry. I think that is true of last years team. Bad chemsitry. Some times teams get better by subtraction? IMO pax gets another year and a half to see. If not then i agree with others he will have to suffer from is actions.

david


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## eljam (Aug 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> the question for the board. What is the appropriate amount of time to give John Paxson before showing him the door?


I think the answer to this lies in another question: How long does Pax wait for Jerry's Kids to produce or not?


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>comptons</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you think Melo would have blocked Miller? Do you think Melo would have blocked Harrington? Do you think Melo would have gotten those 3 offensive rebounds in a row in game 2 of the finals? Do you think Melo would have given Redd, Mason, Jefferson, Artest, and Kobe defensive fits?
> ...


I'm not arguing about whether or not Tayshaun or Melo would be better for Detroit. I AM arguing the fact that Detroit would be all the better if they had Melo instead of Darko.

Having tradeable players like Prince and Melo is a GM problem I would love to have.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

This turned into a great thread after some initial baiting.

Couple of thoughts -

How long on Paxson - Hate to say it, but this year is the key. I agree it may be unfair to judge him on Last years shortened time frame to adjust to the job. That's Reinsdorf's fault. Paxson should not have been hired. He had to learn on the job and unfairly fast. 

How long should Paxson wait on Curry and Chandler - Again, hate to say it, but you've got to go atleast this year and maybe even next year. Neither of these guys was ready to step in. When we drafted them, everyone, posters, Krause and the organization said it's gonna be a tough next 4 years - and it has been. Unless you were to receive a hell of an offer (and only Jerry West or Michael Jordan are gonna do that) you aren't going to receive what it should be worth.

Paxson - average player made better than average by Playing with two of the 50 best all-time players. Come on, Paxson was good, but playing with Jordan and Pippen gave him more opportunities and times than he otherwise would've had.

Skiles - How long do we give him? - Again, you have to give him a full year to truly play it his way. His dog house crap sucks, but maybe he can change the atmosphere and effort. If not, another losing season and you have to see who comes available.

Fans - Stop selling out the U.C. - it's the only way we can have any kind of voice. If the sell-outs stop, Reinsdorf gets pressure.

Reinsdorf - Should receive nothing but you're full of BS e-mail and mail - if he doesn't open the pocketbooks and pay these guys we are "developin" including Crawford. You told us to be patient and good things would come. You knew we'd be "developing" a team and that big pay days would come do. Fiscal responsibility aside, you owe it to the fans to keep any talent around, even if it's to allow your GM to trade that talent for more talent (or future NBDL players).

NBDL Players - I don't want to ever see more than one of them on the roster. Hustle is great, but if you continue to lose, you're still a loser. Do we have that little to offer that we can't bring in real talent? Is even stoked that we are going to have Paul Girly on the roster instead of Marcus Fizer? I'm not. Atleast when Fizer went into a game I knew there would be some flying bodies and no 24 second violations.

Scouting - We suck at it.

Development - Bulls have never heard of it, let alone succeeded at it.

Draft - Paxson if you and your scout draft two more guys that will never make the roster with our second round picks, I will track down your e-mail address and flood it with - Learn to scout e-mails. In fact, can someone track that down for us? We might as well develop that program now.

BJ Armstrong - Please go work for a good organization. You got screwed and disrespected. You deserve better than a boss who's not gonna listen to your insights anyways.

OK, someone hand me the rose colored glasses before I melt down completely.


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## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Ebi was left unprotected...
> ...


Couldnt the bob cats just screw them both over and draft watson and ebi. and not trade watson to the wolves?

I like Ndubi, He has a chance so be a decent defender, with his long lean frame he might work well in the zone defense with garnett.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

I am really looking forward next season to Skiles drawing up those plays that get AD the open 15 foot shot and Linton Johnson the open shot in the corner for the 3. How many times do you have to see the result before you stop drawing up those plays?

Is it just me or did JYD not play much toward the end of the season? 64 minutes in the final 17 games. I guess it is just me. Glad we have him and his contract for that kind of production. 

Don't we WISH Pax's kind of player is Dumars' kind of player?

Just how did this franchise go from predictions of 40 wins, playoff mandates, etc., to the "season is a wash", and finally to "the franchise is a wash?" Must have been Jalen Rose's fault.

TomB - thank God for the 2nd ammendment. Someone should take this franchise out and shoot it in the head and put it out of our misery. ;-)


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>giusd</b>!
> As for rose, if one looks when he was traded to the raptors they were a 500 ball club and after the all star break they had the worst record in the NBA (Ok maybe it was 2nd worst) and missed the playoffs.


Ya, it's a shame the Raps had to play without Rose and Carter for about 15 games....

That had nothing to do with them missing the playoffs.

Even then at least they were in the race until the end...

Rose knocked Cleveland out with a GW 3 and he knocked Milwaukee from a 4 to 6 seed with another GW 3....

He sucks.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

*Chronology of Joe Dumars first two years running the Pistons*

I don't mean to hammer on this Dumars thing. I repeat: *he has done a great job with the Pistons.*

However, to shed more light on the Dumars / Paxson comparison, here's a chronology of the first two years worth of moves made by Dumars. I think most here will agree it's pretty underwhelming. The only centerpiece on today's team that's in place is Ben Wallace. I might even go so far as to say that some here might have started a "Fire Joe Dumars" club were we all Pistons fans instead of Bulls fans.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's far too early to pass judgement on John Paxson.

<table border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2"> <tr> <td><b><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Date</font></b></td> <td><b><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Move</font></b></td> <td><b><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Comments</font></b></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">6/6/00</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Joe Dumars hired</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">6/28/00</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Drafted Mateen Cleaves #14 overall</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Bust. Left Hedo Turkoglu, Desmond Mason, Q. Richardson, Jamaal Magliore, Speedy Claxton, MoPete, and Michael Redd all on the board.</font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">6/28/00</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Drafted Brian Cardinal #44 overall</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Good pick, but they never knew what they had.</font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">8/3/00</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Traded Grant Hill to Magic for Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">8/12/00</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Re-signed free agents Jud Buechler and Mikki Moore</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">8/12/00</font></td> <td> <p><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Signed free agent Torraye Braggs</font></p> </td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">8/22/00</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Traded Lindsey Hunter to Bucks for Billy Owens</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">8/29/00</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Traded Christian Laettner and Terry Mills to Mavs for Cedric Ceballos, John Wallace, Eric Murdock, and $3 million cash</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">9/12/00</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Waived Eric Murdock</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">10/17/00</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Traded Loy Vaught to Mavs for Dana Barros and Ansu Sesay</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">10/18/00</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Waived Ansu Sesay</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">11/20/00</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Waived Torraye Braggs</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">11/20/00</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Signed free agent Joe Smith</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">11/26/00</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Traded Cedric Ceballos to Heat for second-round pick (2003 #53-Tommy Smith)</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">2/22/01</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Traded Jerome Williams, Eric Montross to Raptors for Corliss Williamson, Tyrone Corbin, Kornel David, and future first-round pick (?-?)</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Detroit director of player personnel Brendan Suhr was quoted as saying this deal will make the Pistons the "biggest player in the free-agent market this summer."</font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">2/23/01</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Waived Tyrone Corbin</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">4/19/01</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Fired head coach George Irvine</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Didn't Joe D. "have to know" George Irvine wasn't going to be his coach going into the season?</font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">5/25/01</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Hired Rick Carlisle<b> </b>as head coach</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">6/27/01</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Drafted Rodney White #9 overall</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Left Joe Johnson, Richard Jefferson, Troy Murphy, Zach Randolph, Brandan Haywood, Gerald Wallace, Jamaal Tinsley, Tony Parker, and Gilbert Arenas on the board.</font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">6/27/01</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Drafted Mehmet Okur #38 overall</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">6/28/01</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Traded John Wallace and Jud Buechler to Suns for Cliff Robinson</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">7/16/01</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Traded 2002 second round pick (#?-?) to Raptors for Zeljko Rebraca</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">7/24/01</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Re-signed free agent Corliss Williamson</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">7/24/01</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Signed free agent Ratko Varda</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">9/7/01</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Traded Mateen Cleaves to Kings for Jon Barry and first round pick (?-?)</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">9/10/01</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Re-signed Brian Cardinal</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">9/10/01</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Signed free agent Victor Alexander</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">10/29/01</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1">Signed Damon Jones</font></td> <td><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="-1"> </font></td> </tr></table>


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> "Ebi is going to be amazing, but I guess he's going to be a bust too..."
> 
> No, Ebi will be a frigging bust as well.


Not a chance. Guys gonna be a big star one day IMO.


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## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Ya, it's a shame the Raps had to play without Rose and Carter for about 15 games....
> ...


Tell me about it, glad we got rid of that cancer when we did..
:| 


On an unrelated note, from Kneepad's post:
_"11/26/00 Traded Cedric Ceballos to Heat for second-round pick (2003 #53-Tommy Smith) "_

Cedric Ceballos was still around in 2000?
Yeeeehhh :uhoh:


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Not a chance. Guys gonna be a big star one day IMO.


Seriously don't bother with Shinky...

Double seriously.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Cochise</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


rose wasn't that bad ...especially when you consider what he brought as a comparison ...at the time of the trade AD was also shooting 38% from the field if anything i'd rather have rose with his broken hand ...i know the raps do

and we all know donyell is much better than JYD ...heck baxter is better than jefferies


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Chronology of Joe Dumars first two years running the Pistons*



> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> The point I'm trying to make is that it's far too early to pass judgement on John Paxson.


Detroit's W/L:

2000-2001 32-50
2001-2002 50-32
2002-2003 50-32
2003-2004 54-28

So in Dumars' 2nd season (in your list of moves), he had built a 50 win team. Do the Bulls look like a 50 win team to you next season? They're not looking like a 30 win team to me.

It's plenty early enough.


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## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

*Re: Re: Chronology of Joe Dumars first two years running the Pistons*



> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> Detroit's W/L:
> ...


Probably not, unless they get the next ben wallace and someone who can move off the ball, instead of camping on the three point line.


----------



## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Seriously don't bother with Shinky...
> ...


Believe me Arenas, I know Shinky real well..we're friends but we always debate on basketball. Shinky is the guy who said he thought Lebron was going to bust and wouldn't be ready for the NBA. If I couldn't convince him that Lebron was ready (he finally realizes that now) then I am certain there is no way I can convince him that Ebi is going to be a legit star in a few years.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>chifaninca</b>!
> This turned into a great thread after some initial baiting.
> 
> Couple of thoughts -
> ...


putting all the disgust at losing the the direction of the franchice aside , i'll answer you .

Paxson should get until about nov.1st after which time we'll get to see what he's done and how its working on the floor if he fails 2 straight years he should be gone before he does any more damage.

skiles a lil more time than pax after a training camp and a new GM his removal will be a matter of time anyway ...just like it was for cartwright

fans ...i cant and wont tell people not be fans ...you can picket though ...that will bring pressure .

JR is basically full of it i agree he is turning into the Donald midwest version and its sad , owners like him should be removed for these kind of actions.

nbdl players ...some i like, some i dont but there are too many of them and it smells of cheapness , the team should buckle down and get some seasoned reserves not guys who aren't good enough to be among the 1st 60 picks in whatever year they come out.

scouting once again ...i agree we aren't any good and its all paxson's fault ...he has guys who know what they are doing but if he wont listen or go see certain players(pietrus) or have certain players come in(when is that josh smith workout?) , whats the use ? I find him lazy and stubborn 2 very bad traits for a GM.

Development ...cant agree there the bulls were on pace at the end of the 2002-03 season ...and they aren't this year after a year of paxson , i think he has gotten some of the lesson of last off-season to sink in (not having TC and EC on the summer league team was a disaster for no other reason than the asst. coaches would have been able to keep an eye on them all summer) but the dynamic duo still aren't on summer league team , where curry could be working on that counter move in actual games and maybe chandler could learn a move period, these guys still need game experience more than anything else , but pax seems to not know or care about it.

draft ...well it is a direct result of his lack of scouting kirk was a good pick but in all honesty would the bulls have been worse off with any draftee taken after him for at least 5 picks ? TJ ford got his team into the playoffs and at the start of the season there was no one who thought the bucks were better then the bulls hayes and pietus were simply better fits ...and the euro jordan is a better defender ,sweetney is actually younger than chandler and is probably a better rebounder and definitely a better scorer although not the defensive player tyson is , and in all likelyhood doesn't have his upside, and ridour looks alot like the next stockton not kirk , although ...he plays no defense and thats a concern but on offense he does all the suff i wish kirk did.

BJ. well yes he did get screwed but if the bulls dont get it turned around he has to be the guy who gets a shot at running things if not, he should go , he actually has been trained for this job unlike pax and i think we all have seen pax's inexperience show in player relations , and his player transactions.

BTW your rose colored glasses are in toronto now.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Chronology of Joe Dumars first two years running the Pistons*



> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> I don't mean to hammer on this Dumars thing. I repeat: *he has done a great job with the Pistons.*
> 
> However, to shed more light on the Dumars / Paxson comparison, here's a chronology of the first two years worth of moves made by Dumars. I think most here will agree it's pretty underwhelming. The only centerpiece on today's team that's in place is Ben Wallace. I might even go so far as to say that some here might have started a "Fire Joe Dumars" club were we all Pistons fans instead of Bulls fans.
> ...


yor table listed the moves made in the 1st 17 months dumars has been in office ..at the end of those 17 months detriot had a 50 win team and 2 years later as of this morning the probable nba champs. 

pax has been on the job 15 months and its probably optimistic to think at this point next years team(which will be after the 17 month barrier) will equal the 30 win team he inherited ...that says all there needs to be said on any comparison ...there is no comparison, dumars much > paxson


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> Detroit's W/L:
> 
> 2000-2001 32-50
> ...


Fair point on the W-L record.

However, how many players from that 01-02 team are still on the roster? The answer is exactly two: Ben Wallace and Corliss Williamson. My point being, Dumars didn't build a championship caliber team in his first year, or even his second in spite of starting with more assets in place-- in fact, it could be argued he was headed down the wrong path entirely after two seasons. That team won 50 games, but wasn't ever going to go anywhere in the playoffs. But to Dumars's credit, he realized it, reversed course, and by making four key moves (the Rip Hamilton trade, Billups signing, drafting of Tayshaun Price, and obviously the Sheed trade) surrounded Big Ben with the right players and got the franchise headed in the right direction. Oh, and along the way he lucked into the #2 overall pick.

Again, I'm not arguing Paxson > Dumars. There would be no basis for doing so. But I am arguing that one year is not long enough to judge any GM.

If W-L record is your ultimate barometer, just how many games would the Bulls have to win next season for you to give Paxson a 3rd year?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> 
> Fair point on the W-L record.
> 
> ...


31 would do.

And better than 4-10 in the first 14 games. That's HIS standard.

Being a 50-win team lets you make deals that put you over the top. Krause certainly did it, and repeatedly. I'd also point out that I don't think the Pistons would be contenders without Sheed, who was a mid-season acquisition. Adding Sheed to the Bulls wouldn't even make them contenders.

BTW, do you think the Pistons are a good offensive team?


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> 31 would do.
> ...


is that the golden rule being used ...do onto other as you would have them do onto you.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: Chronology of Joe Dumars first two years running the Pistons*



> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> yor table listed the moves made in the 1st 17 months dumars has been in office ..at the end of those 17 months detriot had a 50 win team and 2 years later as of this morning the probable nba champs.
> 
> pax has been on the job 15 months and its probably optimistic to think at this point next years team(which will be after the 17 month barrier) will equal the 30 win team he inherited ...that says all there needs to be said on any comparison ...there is no comparison, dumars much > paxson


Actually my table includes all moves through the first two full years in the Dumars regime. He just didn't make any moves (that I'm aware of) between 10/01 and the '02 draft the following spring (which was the 2-year point).

Dumars took over a 42-win team and the following season won 32 games. No different than Paxson.

Once again, based on overall record, no question Dumars > Paxson. Based on record after 1 year on the job... it's a lot less clear.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 31 would do.
> 
> And better than 4-10 in the first 14 games. That's HIS standard.


I could live with that. And I think Pax could too.



> ...I don't think the Pistons would be contenders without Sheed, who was a mid-season acquisition. Adding Sheed to the Bulls wouldn't even make them contenders.


Is there any question the Pistons wouldn't be where they are without Sheed?

Rip Hamilton would be more valuable to the Bulls than Rasheed Wallace.



> BTW, do you think the Pistons are a good offensive team?


Why do I get the feeling I'm getting set up by that question? 

I think they share the ball very well-- I don't recall seeing a team make the extra pass as often as they do and pass up as many wide-open shots as they have in a very long time. I think they're aggressive in taking the ball to the hoop which gets them to the line a lot (a very underrated statistic which has been a huge difference in the Finals). I think they're an underrated offensive team-- how's that?


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Chronology of Joe Dumars first two years running the Pistons*



> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> 
> Actually my table includes all moves through the first two full years in the Dumars regime. He just didn't make any moves (that I'm aware of) between 10/01 and the '02 draft the following spring (which was the 2-year point).
> 
> ...


well after 17 months the pistons were a team winning at a 50 win pace ...maybe there was no need to make a move...and lets not forget the major reason the team went down in wins ...no grant hill and Joe D did everything possible to retain him , in the end it worked out great for him 

when the bulls season starts it will be paxson's 20th month on the job, lets see if the view is as rosey , somehow i doubt it.

the major difference between dumars and paxson is approach the piston even today aren't a team more talented than the bulls , but they are better much better , the bulls are just as big and strong and more athletic while the pistons are more skilled and have more experience. But dumars gives off the impression that he likes his team and when he trades them off he gets alot for them , paxson does the opposite he didn't like rose so he got rid of him and got players not as good, when it didn't work out his excuse was it was the the players fault , that he though they were ready to step up and they weren't , even though with rose and marshall the bulls were 4-12 and a player who was supposed to be the star of the team (crawford) was benched for 7 of those games...so its not like the bulls were overflowing with productive players at the time. 

he also blamed the poor season on curry's being out of shape ...which unless i miss my guess eddy was like that when he made the AD trade someone who is a hardworking GM should have known this before the trade was made i would think...especially since curry was underperforming at the time of the trade. 

the 1st year of paxson's regime was one in which he put his ambition and ego over the good of the team and when it backfired he blamed the team as if he did everything right when it was far from the case.

while dumars simply plays the cards he is dealt and if he makes a mistake , he simply tries to fix it , no muss, no fuss and thats why in the end he is a success and you could see that from the start even with a very so so beginning , and when his team went down about 10 wins in his 1st year there was none of the turmoil that engulfs the bulls right now.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> Why do I get the feeling I'm getting set up by that question?
> 
> I think they share the ball very well-- I don't recall seeing a team make the extra pass as often as they do and pass up as many wide-open shots as they have in a very long time. I think they're aggressive in taking the ball to the hoop which gets them to the line a lot (a very underrated statistic which has been a huge difference in the Finals). I think they're an underrated offensive team-- how's that?


It wasn't a trick question. FWIW, it looks to me like the Pistons run the same sets as the Bulls.

Did you look at the .jpg I posted in the thread about the 4 HoFers not going to win the championship? How do you beat that defense?


----------



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> Dumars' team is in the Finals.
> ...


And Joe went from 42 wins to 32 the year he took over. The next season they made the playoffs. 50 wins. They made the playoffs because they acquired for C Robinson. 

I wonder how many Piston fans wanted Joe fired after he went backwards?


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> This is ONE reason why I dont post here much. The frigging Pax bashing is really assanine. The guy has had ONE SEASON so far, and yet many here want him gone already.
> 
> He's won championships, played with the GREATEST player of all time, yet you all want him strung up from a tree.
> ...


Shinky firing John is just one side of the issue. Both sides can be heard.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Comparing Dumars to Paxson is just crazy. Its like comparing Japan to Nigeria, they are worlds apart. But before I get to that, why is it that everyone remembers Pax has some gritty tough player? What I remember was a guy who never drove to the basket, sat on the outside and when the ball was thrown to him, he drained it. I guess he is no tougher then Peja, who most people think is weak. Paxson was no Jerry Sloane, at all
> 
> But lets compare Dumars to Pax
> ...


In all fairness here you cannot compare a 4 year GM to someone who inherited the job just last year. 

Big name coaches? George Irvine was hired as coach that year. Does that ring fear into other teams? Alvin Gentry was their coach. His teams had 40 wins and went backwards to 32. 

As for taking a chance on Wallace, Joe never did anything his first year. His team went backwards. 

Untradeable list? How do you know? Just because the list is not mentioned does not mean there is not a name untradeable. 

Yes they are miles apart. Joe has had four years to do his thing. John just one full year and not even the summer yet.


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

Well let me be the first to say;

Kneepad, post #70 was fantastic! Great work.

ACE;

No chance in hell you will convince me that Ebi will be a player. 

Arenas;

I wont even bother....:sigh:


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> Arenas;
> 
> I wont even bother....:sigh:


Thanks for doing me the favor....


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> It wasn't a trick question. FWIW, it looks to me like the Pistons run the same sets as the Bulls.
> 
> Did you look at the .jpg I posted in the thread about the 4 HoFers not going to win the championship? How do you beat that defense?


I have to say I think you're a little off base on that defense, DB. They look to me like they're playing a pretty standard matchup zone. If they had no one below the free throw line Shaq should be scoring 80 ppg. Last night they added a little wrinkle where they were stopping Kobe at all costs if/when he tried to penetrate.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> Well let me be the first to say;
> 
> Kneepad, post #70 was fantastic! Great work.
> ...


Good! I'd hate to have that interfere with you giving me my props when the time is right!


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

You give yourself more than enough props, ACE....


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> You give yourself more than enough props, ACE....


yeah but it's a lot more fun when you do it....:laugh:


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Thanks for doing me the favor....


Arenas, mate, why do you even bother with him? Here is a guy who said Lebron would be a bust and that Pietrus couldnt defend. Why would you take anytime to listen to someone with that track record?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> 
> I have to say I think you're a little off base on that defense, DB. They look to me like they're playing a pretty standard matchup zone. If they had no one below the free throw line Shaq should be scoring 80 ppg. Last night they added a little wrinkle where they were stopping Kobe at all costs if/when he tried to penetrate.


Watch close tomorrow and see it for yourself (now that you know what I see). Or think back to last night and how much you saw 'Sheed double teaming Payton at the top of the key (Sheed had to be pretty close to be able to double).

They do end up playing D below the FT line, but after the O has used up a LOT of :24 clock. And Shaq is only averaging about 29 PPG for the series - your 80 PPG is the right idea, just overstated, IMO.

To get the ball to Shaq earlier in the offense, they'll have to lob it over the zone, and Ben Wallace is quick enough, tall enough, and basically intimidating enough to make teams think twice about the lob.

The defense is a brilliant scheme, no doubt. It's effectively a half-court press. Kobe did figure out that you beat a zone by driving and making it collapse. His dishes were often to open guys who missed. The more I think about it, they need someone besides Kobe to drive and dish to him, because he won't miss that much.


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Arenas, mate, why do you even bother with him? Here is a guy who said Lebron would be a bust and that Pietrus couldnt defend. Why would you take anytime to listen to someone with that track record?


I also said that Boozer would be a stud, I was touting Wade ever since his first college game, and I was one of the few that backed Hinrich when we picked him. Last time I checked, all of those kids turned out pretty damn good.

And you had damn near everyone brainwashed about the great Pietrus. Luckily, some of us seen through your garbarge. And to be honest? I was more or less "hoping" Lebron would be a bust. That way GM's would stay the hell away from the little kiddies that should be going to school, and then we might get less and less of them attempting to be men. But, Lebron succeeded, and now look at what we're dealing with. Frigging kiddies coming out our damn ears!

Hell, you have got high school kids that are projected to be mid to late first round picks, BLOWING OFF THE CHICAGO DRAFT CAMP!
What the hell does THIS tell you? It tells me that their games are probably so dammed flawed they figure it's in their best interest to keep GM's guessing.

This is exactly what the league does not need.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> I also said that Boozer would be a stud, I was touting Wade ever since his first college game, and I was one of the few that backed Hinrich when we picked him. Last time I checked, all of those kids turned out pretty damn good.
> ...


Unnecessary. MikeDC


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

Well, there's a shocker.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Lebron James is going to be a bust!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Lebron James is going to be a bust!
> 
> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Yeah, ask him if Ming is gonna be a bust too...another one of his fearless predictions.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, ask him if Ming is gonna be a bust too...another one of his fearless predictions.


Here is the pattern Ace, if a kid doesnt attend college (ie straight from HS) then he is automatically garbage. If a kid isnt from the US, he is automatically garbage. And then when a guy plays well, if he isnt an American or a college attendee, he still is garbage. Here is a guy who wouldnt trade Curry for Dirk as well. Another great example of his genius. His comeback will be about Pietrus, the same guy who averaged 10 ppg on nearly 50% shooting and led his team to a 12-5 record over the last 17. He also said Pietrus couldnt defend, the same guy who was the only rookie (including Kirk) who got a vote for the All NBA defensive team. His baits are pretty laughable :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Here is the pattern Ace, if a kid doesnt attend college (ie straight from HS) then he is automatically garbage. If a kid isnt from the US, he is automatically garbage. And then when a guy plays well, if he isnt an American or a college attendee, he still is garbage. Here is a guy who wouldnt trade Curry for Dirk as well. Another great example of his genius. His comeback will be about Pietrus, the same guy who averaged 10 ppg on nearly 50% shooting and led his team to a 12-5 record over the last 17. He also said Pietrus couldnt defend, the same guy who was the only rookie (including Kirk) who got a vote for the All NBA defensive team. His baits are pretty laughable :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


yeah, I like Shinky but he does seem to fit that pattern. He has a real thing against the prep to pros. I don't think he has as much of a euro bias but he certainly had a China bias. He'll accuse me of hyping everyone like Dickie V but basically I don't like to speak badly about players. If you can read between the lines it's pretty easy to tell who I think is legit and who isn't. Some of the guys I've lobbied haven't become stars yet but that doesn't mean they won't. That list includes guys like: Kedrick Brown, Ndubi Ebi, Darius Miles, Eddy Curry, Jamal Crawford among others. 

I've seen Pietrus play and he's an amazing defender. It didn't seem like he had as good a shot as you report but thats something that could be worked on. He definitley is a great defender though thats just a given for anyone who has seen him play IMO.


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

Ming. Is he a world beater? No. He's a servicable center at best!

And to be honest? I actually respect the Euros a bit more than you think, RLucas. I just dont fall for the hype like some of you guys do. 

Preps to pros? It's ruining the NBA and College game. There's no question about it. 

ACE;

You DO pretty much praise every player that comes out. And when one of them makes it, you officially declare him as "your guy". Why not try going out on a limb and tell us who will suck? Show some balls.

Rlucas;

Your reminding me more and more of your "minnie-me", Arenas. Not a good place to be.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> Ming. Is he a world beater? No. He's a servicable center at best!


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> Ming. Is he a world beater? No. He's a servicable center at best!
> 
> And to be honest? I actually respect the Euros a bit more than you think, RLucas. I just dont fall for the hype like some of you guys do.
> ...


Ming is a servicable center? You DO watch the NBA right? Ming is right behind Shaq IMO. 

If I am praising a player that means I like him, if I don't mention him that means I'm not high on him. And if you want to see me on record, I am on record in the "draft bust" thread as saying I think Iggy & Swift will be busts. I'm not certain on Iggy because he is apparently working hard but I just don't like talking negatively about players...If I don't have something nice to say I typically don't say anything.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> Ming. Is he a world beater? No. He's a servicable center at best!
> 
> And to be honest? I actually respect the Euros a bit more than you think, RLucas. I just dont fall for the hype like some of you guys do.
> ...


stop it. your just showing your ignorance more and more

Tmac
KG
Kobe
Jermaine Oneal
Rashard Lewis
Lebron "Bust" James
Amare Stoudamire

Man, they are RUINING the game! 

One word describes your rants, FOOLISH. 

As for Arenas, your little baits and rants, youd be lucky to have to have his intelligence regarding the game. Call him names, call me names, but your track record leaves alot to be desired. 

Tyson Chandler is a stud, but Darko is a bust was my personal favorite by the was ACE.


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

Oh yeah, ACE?

You really should consider the things YOU have said, when ripping others for what THEY have said.

Remember the "Rose is only Marginally better than Mercer" comment?  :laugh:


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

LOL!

You can gang up on me all you want! I dont give a crap. I will take each and everyone of you on. 

"Tmac
KG
Kobe
Jermaine Oneal
Rashard Lewis
Lebron "Bust" James
Amare Stoudamire"

Out of those players you mention, only a couple were NBA ready. The rest were three year project. Now, is THAT what your looking for, when you draft a player? Someone that will help out three years, or more, down the road? Hell no. But this is what GM's are forced to deal with. And I think it's garbage.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> LOL!
> 
> You can gang up on me all you want! I dont give a crap. I will take each and everyone of you on.
> ...


How long did it take Pippen to really help the Bulls? Just curious.


----------



## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> Oh yeah, ACE?
> 
> You really should consider the things YOU have said, when ripping others for what THEY have said.
> ...


Actually, no I don't remember that at all. Personally I think Rose is better than Mercer but I was against trading for Rose and against the recent trade where we got ripped off bringing in "old man river" also known as AD for him. 

I don'thave a problem with anything I have said regarding a player. If I am wrong I admit it and move on. There are so many variables and we only get to see so few. I mean, Josh Smith could be an amazing basketball star one day...or...he may not have his head on straight and turn into another Michael Ray or something. Yuo just never know. And when I don't know I don't say anything. For instance I said I didn't know if Ming would be any good or not but that the scouting reports were intriguing. I couldn't really speak to him because I never saw him play. You, on the other hand, had no difficulty at all in declaring him a bust and you probably never even saw him play either. And "hoping" for Lebron to be a bust is just a hater sort of mentality and really isn't healthy. I like to be optimistic and hope everyone succeeds, I can't imagine actually rooting for someone to fail for no other reason than I don't like the NBA's age policy...


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> How long did it take Pippen to really help the Bulls? Just curious.


How long did it take Elton, or Kirk? 

In this day and age, my money is on the college kid over the prep players.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> How long did it take Pippen to really help the Bulls? Just curious.


hell i'm still waiting on brad sellers ...i'm beginning to lose faith on him.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> How long did it take Elton, or Kirk?
> ...


Yet the stars in this league are the prep kids...

Hmm?

What will you say next?

This is becoming fun and entertaining.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> How long did it take Pippen to really help the Bulls? Just curious.


But Dabullz, the college player is a lock to greatness in the NBA. Guys like Reece Gaines, Brian Cook, Bradon Armstrong (who couldnt even make it in Europe), and Luke Ridnour are GREAT for the NBA. The HSers, particularly MVP Kevin Garnett, Lebron "bust" James and former ROY Amare Stoudamire have been TERRIBLE for the game of basketball. Also, while I am on it, those Euros are all hype. I wouldnt trade Curry for Dirk, Peja stinks, even though he came in 3rd for the MVP and a kid like Pau Gasol would have his lunch handed to him by Tyson Chandler or any college player in the USA. Like I said All Hype. And while I am on it, Pietrus cant defend a lick and his nearly 50% shooting over the last 20 games a year actually masks that he cant shoot. Oh by the way, Asians shouldnt be in the NBA. That ming guy is only servicable

Sarcasm intended.


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

Hey Arenas?

I see your quick to chime in on others "predicitons". Hell, I have been wrong, and admit it when I am. No big deal.

Should we dive into the things that YOU have proclaimed as well?

Do you REALLY want to go there?


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> How long did it take Elton, or Kirk?
> ...


if you are going to bet on college kids , you wont always win , trajan landdon , will avery...heck isn't there a signature running around here on randolph childress and his 4 years at Wake Forrest.


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Yet the stars in this league are the prep kids...
> ...


But how long did it take these kids to GET there? Save for a few amazingly talented youngsters. This is something you fail to understand.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> Hey Arenas?
> 
> I see your quick to chime in on others "predicitons". Hell, I have been wrong, and admit it when I am. No big deal.
> ...


we have all been wrong BUT

LEBRON "BUST" JAMES

MING is only SERVICABLE

PIETRUS CANT DEFEND

Do you realize how far out of your *** you talk?


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> How long did it take Elton, or Kirk?
> ...


Hmmm... did Elton help the Bulls to even a 20 win season?

Did Kirk help us lose 7 more games than we won the previous season?


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> Hmmm... did Elton help the Bulls to even a 20 win season?
> ...


dabullz, i guess you didnt get the memo, Kirk is the greatest Bull of alltime. without him, we dont win 5


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> Hmmm... did Elton help the Bulls to even a 20 win season?
> ...


Were they ready to play from practically day one? Or did we have to wait for three years to get that from them?


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> Were they ready to play from practically day one? Or did we have to wait for three years to get that from them?


so about once every 5 years or so, you get a legit player ready to contribute now. everyone has to wait for greatness. Do you think the Lakers are mad they had to wait 3 years for Kobe? Or minnesota waiting for KG? Or Houston waiting a year for Ming? Do you think their fans are complaining? So a guy has an impact, and then doesnt get better, is that what you want?


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> Were they ready to play from practically day one? Or did we have to wait for three years to get that from them?


Hmmm... we had Brand and Artest (was Artest ready to play?) and Brad Miller and that other collegiate fellow Fizer. 

Hmmm... again. What if we waited 3 years on those guys?


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> But how long did it take these kids to GET there? Save for a few amazingly talented youngsters. This is something you fail to understand.


elton and T-mac are the same age ...who would you want ?

basically what you are saying is that you dont want to wait for the great player you'll take the good player ...and be 50-60 loss team forever.

and you act like just because the good player went to college he is a sure thing ...will avery went to duke for 2 years like brand ...where is he now?


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> elton and T-mac are the same age ...who would you want ?
> ...


College kids have more of a chance to make an impact than Preps do.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> elton and T-mac are the same age ...who would you want ?
> ...


Haha true, very true


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> College kids have more of a chance to make an impact than Preps do.


oh really? wasnt the All NBA first and second team litered with guys who DIDNT play in college?


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

"basically what you are saying is that you dont want to wait for the great player you'll take the good player ...and be 50-60 loss team forever."

I'm saying we shouldn't HAVE to wait. Charles Barkley said that any team that drafts a three year project (high schoolers), were cheating their fans.

I agree with him. No, not every college player is a sure thing. But if they come from a good program, and have played in some major games, then I sure as hell would like the chances of that player over a prep player.


----------



## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> "basically what you are saying is that you dont want to wait for the great player you'll take the good player ...and be 50-60 loss team forever."
> 
> I'm saying we shouldn't HAVE to wait. Charles Barkley said that any team that drafts a three year project (high schoolers), were cheating their fans.
> ...


Basically you are for instituting an age limit in the NBA. How about just saying that? But until there actually IS an age limit we can't pass up an opportunity to draft a talented HS'er if it presents itself. I'm still glad we drafted Curry.


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> oh really? wasnt the All NBA first and second team litered with guys who DIDNT play in college?


Again. Your talking about YEARS down the line here man.


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Basically you are for instituting an age limit in the NBA. How about just saying that? But until there actually IS an age limit we can't pass up an opportunity to draft a talented HS'er if it presents itself. I'm still glad we drafted Curry.


Hell yes! I want an age limit! It would save THIS game, and the college game as well. 

On Curry?

Let me just say that I am surprised and very happy he kept his word about working out. No matter WHAT we pi$$ and moan about the draft picks, our entire future rests on Curry's shoulders.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> "basically what you are saying is that you dont want to wait for the great player you'll take the good player ...and be 50-60 loss team forever."
> 
> I'm saying we shouldn't HAVE to wait. Charles Barkley said that any team that drafts a three year project (high schoolers), were cheating their fans.
> ...


thats funny because i felt cheated every time ronald dupree and linton johnson were on the floor combined they did 8 years of college ...chuck barkley cheated fans in his last game ...was he ready to play that night?


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> Again. Your talking about YEARS down the line here man.


How many college players, TAKE YEARS, to get to the All NBA level? The answer is less then 50% of the all nba first 3 teams actually attended a division one college. 

Again, is Houston ticked they had to wait a year for Ming to be a dominant center? 

Is Dallas mad they had to wait a year for Dirk?

Is the Lakers still mad they had to wait 3 years for Kobe, or Minny with KG?


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> thats funny because i felt cheated every time ronald dupree and linton johnson were on the floor combined they did 8 years of college ...chuck barkley cheated fans in his last game ...was he ready to play that night?


Grinch, your on a roll

I mean, Paul Shirley, those 4 years playing in big games did him some good. oh and reece gaines sure showed those prep players how its done. And dont even get me started on euro busts like Darko and Pietrus.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> Again. Your talking about YEARS down the line here man.


how many years did it take for john stockton to make the all nba team or jason kidd...more than it took kobe bryant i'm sure


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

So let me get this straight. You guys are ALL FOR the drafting of little kiddies?

Is that right?


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> So let me get this straight. You guys are ALL FOR the drafting of little kiddies?
> 
> Is that right?


No, what is the consensus is that YOU TAKE THE MOST TALENTED PLAYER NO MATTER WHERE THEY ARE FROM, WITHOUT DISCRIMINATION. Can we just say you would discriminate? If the kid is from Europe, dont look at him? If the kid didnt play in college, dont look at him. Can we say its safe to say that is your theory?


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Shinky is a genius...

That's the consensus...






If we're all high and drunk.


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> No, what is the consensus is that YOU TAKE THE MOST TALENTED PLAYER NO MATTER WHERE THEY ARE FROM, WITHOUT DISCRIMINATION. Can we just say you would discriminate? If the kid is from Europe, dont look at him? If the kid didnt play in college, dont look at him. Can we say its safe to say that is your theory?


Euro? No.

High school kids? Yeah. It would be different if we had a productive team right now that didn't need immediate help. But that is not the case. We NEED another solid player just like Kirk.


----------



## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

I nominate this thread for the basketballboards.net Hall of Fame.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> We NEED another solid player just like Kirk.


Ya we need another guy to help us win 23 games...

We could have played Shaun Livingston last year at PG and not been any worse.


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Ya we need another guy to help us win 23 games...
> ...


Better than Jamal too. Right?


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> Better than Jamal too. Right?


We won half those games because of Jamal...

And were in another 1/4 of them because him often...

We went as he went...

How many games did Hinrich have huge games that led to a win?


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> So let me get this straight. You guys are ALL FOR the drafting of little kiddies?
> 
> Is that right?


no i'm for drafting the right player , if that player went to duke or a spanish b league i dont care or if he came out of oak hill academy high school. the best players are not coming through the college ranks anymore because they dont have to in most cases . and the reasons tyson chandler is a #2 pick will eventually shine through , if he went college it wouldn't change that he is a 7'1 athletic freak ...all his going to college for 4 years would have done is prevent the bulls from drafting him.

the same for eddy curry .

would the bulls future be any brighter if with the 2nd pick in the 2001 draft the bulls selected shane battier or the next 4 year senior(brendan haywood) instead of tyson chandler and eddy curry ? 

get with the times ...they are passing you by.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

in 2 years, Shaun Livingston will be a universe better then either of our current guards. If we have to wait a year for that to happen, then so be it. I am not a fan of a club trying to win 35 games, I want to championships. Shinky is aiming for mediocrity, so is Pax if you believe some of the things he says


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> We won half those games because of Jamal...
> ...


Yeah. Jamal is an asskicker. LOL! Please. Kirk was the best player on our team. Scott Skiles even said so. And I agree with him. 

But please, lets not turn this into one of those threads again.


----------



## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> no i'm for drafting the right player , if that player went to duke or a spanish b league i dont care or if he came out of oak hill academy high school. the best players are not coming through the college ranks anymore because they dont have to in most cases . and the reasons tyson chandler is a #2 pick will eventually shine through , if he went college it wouldn't change that he is a 7'1 athletic freak ...all his going to college for 4 years would have done is prevent the bulls from drafting him.
> ...


Great post! Thats the real point here IMO. These days the impact players bypass college thats why you have so many special players that are coming straight out of HS. So nowdays the guys who are 4 year college players are the guys who weren't GOOD enough to come out their senior year of HS.


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> in 2 years, Shaun Livingston will be a universe better then either of our current guards. If we have to wait a year for that to happen, then so be it. I am not a fan of a club trying to win 35 games, I want to championships. Shinky is aiming for mediocrity, so is Pax if you believe some of the things he says


Now what in the hell tells you this? Because he kicked *** in High school? Livingston will get a Karl Malone elbow, and then be carried off the damn court. He has at LEAST 3 to 4 years of trying to get his body to where it needs to be. AT LEAST 3 to 4 years.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Great post! Thats the real point here IMO. These days the impact players bypass college thats why you have so many special players that are coming straight out of HS. So nowdays the guys who are 4 year college players are the guys who weren't GOOD enough to come out their senior year of HS.


This is usally true but is not always a hard and fast rule. Kenyon Martin is a stud, and a great athlete, but he took a few more years to develop. Same with Wade.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah. Jamal is an asskicker. LOL! Please. Kirk was the best player on our team. Scott Skiles even said so. And I agree with him.
> ...


i know you dont want that ...on realGM you were running to DuckIII to save you from all the junk you spewed.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> Now what in the hell tells you this? Because he kicked *** in High school? Livingston will get a Karl Malone elbow, and then be carried off the damn court. He has at LEAST 3 to 4 years of trying to get his body to where it needs to be. AT LEAST 3 to 4 years.


Shaun Livingstons body is no different from Reggie Millers or Tayshaun Princes body, and those guys havent done so bad, have they? Oh and by the way, when is Livingston going to be playing the 4? Speed and quickness mean more then bulk. And this kid is special. 6-8 pgs with flair and court sense dont come around too often. But let me guess, you would pass on him to take Luke Jackson?


----------



## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> Oh and by the way, when is Livingston going to be playing the 4?


:laugh:

Apparently he'll get injured playing the 4 in the Old Timers league because Malone is going to retire after the Finals.


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> i know you dont want that ...on realGM you were running to DuckIII to save you from all the junk you spewed.


I dont run to anyone. I am my own man. And I will handle anything that comes my way.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Grinch, your on a roll


His other screen name is "butter"


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> I dont run to anyone. I am my own man. And I will handle anything that comes my way.


Your handling it great right now


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

"Oh and by the way, when is Livingston going to be playing the 4? "

I guess setting screens, and fight THROUGH screens, is something that esapes the great basketball "wisdom" around here?


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> I dont run to anyone. I am my own man. And I will handle anything that comes my way.


Right now you're the kid spread eagle on the wall with nothing but tennis balls coming at him at 100 mph....


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> "Oh and by the way, when is Livingston going to be playing the 4? "
> 
> I guess setting screens, and fight THROUGH screens, is something that esapes the great basketball "wisdom" around here?


Ya Livingston's career will be setting screens for post men to come out and hit the 15 footer...

Are you serious?


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

Why not come over to RealGM and gang up on me there?


----------



## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Ya Livingston's career will be setting screens for post men to come out and hit the 15 footer...
> ...



Hey, in all reality he very well may have to fight THROUGH some screens.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

You know what this thread reminds me of? that scene in Airplane where the women in the back of the plane starts freaking out. And then one person tells her to get a hold of herself and slaps her one. Then gets called away. and then someone else shakes her up, and slaps her. and pretty soon after that, everyone on the plane is in line to hit her

Point being, SHinky is that old woman in the back of the plane crying while everyone here gets to slap him one. 

There is no Duck here to keep the line from forming


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Ya Livingston's career will be setting screens for post men to come out and hit the 15 footer...
> ...


Are YOU serious? Dont 4's set screens? Dont they set them on PG's and SG's? Of course they do. Can you not follow this logic? Isn't Livingston going to have a screen set against him? I would imagine over the course of his lifetime, he WILL get nailed once in a while!!!


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

has Tayshaun Prince had any problems fighting through those Shaq and Malone screens chasing Kobe around? and Livingston has basically the same body


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, in all reality he very well may have to fight THROUGH some screens.


THANK YOU!

HELLO!!! That's what I am talking about!


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> THANK YOU!
> ...


again, according to this logic, perhaps Larry Brown ought to sit Tayshaun down because his BODY wont be able to take a screen from Malone or Shaq? 

Can you spell R-E-A-C-H?


----------



## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Ya Livingston's career will be setting screens for post men to come out and hit the 15 footer...
> ...


I'm not gonna gang up on poor ole shinky, but are YOU serious with this reply? You do realise that screening a guard to free up a shooter is a common occurance at ANY level of baskeball. I think all that Shinky is saying is that if you were to run Livingston thru a couple of hard baseline screens it would be pretty easy to free up the guy he's chasing because he's not the strongest guy around.

That's all.

Now back to the regularly scheduled lynching.


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

ROFLMAO!

I can take it.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not gonna gang up on poor ole shinky, but are YOU serious with this reply? You do realise that screening a guard to free up a shooter is a common occurance at ANY level of baskeball. I think all that Shinky is saying is that if you were to run Livingston thru a couple of hard baseline screens it would be pretty easy to free up the guy he's chasing because he's not the strongest guy around.
> ...


Flash, of course that's going to happen, but Livingston's time will be spent on the perimeter, at the top distributing, you agree with that don't you?

That's why I said "career"....


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

could someone please tell me the difference between Livingston and Reggie Miller or Tayshaun Prince in terms of body?


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Your handling it great right now


BTW, you didn't think I was going to let you get away with this one, did you?

Ehem!.......

At least I wasn't chased away from a board. Like you and your little brother Arenas.


----------



## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Flash, of course that's going to happen, but Livingston's time will be spent on the perimeter, at the top distributing, you agree with that don't you?
> ...


On offense - yes. On defense, unless the team he ends up on is playing a zone, he's gonna have to guard/chase somebody. I don't know if he's gonna be duarable/tough like a Tayshaun Prince or a Reggie Miller. He's going to have to prove that he can either fight thru screens at the NBA level or otherwise compensate with his length. I can all but assure you that when he gets time on the floor, especially early this season, he's going to be run thru multiple screens if only because the perception is there that he's not all that strong. How he responds to such treatment will go a long way in defining how much court time he'll get and also how other teams approach him when he's on the defensive side of the ball. If he's at least adequate at getting thru screens, that'll be one less thing that offenses can throw at him and that'll be one less thing that anybody can knock him for.

Only time will tell.


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

YOUCH!


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> BTW, you didn't think I was going to let you get away with this one, did you?
> ...


was arenas chased away? I made a decision regarding realgm. It was being chased away. But I do sense a pattern with you. Its called talking without knowing the facts. Think what you want, but there was no chasing away being done. On this thread, I give you your props. You have been proven wrong about 75 times, yet you stay in here and continue to think you know what your talking about. Good job. Ignorance, CAN BE, Bliss, i suppose


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> On offense - yes. On defense, unless the team he ends up on is playing a zone, he's gonna have to guard/chase somebody. I don't know if he's gonna be duarable/tough like a Tayshaun Prince or a Reggie Miller. He's going to have to prove that he can either fight thru screens at the NBA level or otherwise compensate with his length. I can all but assure you that when he gets time on the floor, especially early this season, he's going to be run thru multiple screens if only because the perception is there that he's not all that strong. How he responds to such treatment will go a long way in defining how much court time he'll get and also how other teams approach him when he's on the defensive side of the ball. If he's at least adequate at getting thru screens, that'll be one less thing that offenses can throw at him and that'll be one less thing that anybody can knock him for.
> ...


You know, the same things were said about Prince and Miller and they did fine. Why should anyone think that Livingston would be any different?


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> was arenas chased away? I made a decision regarding realgm. It was being chased away. But I do sense a pattern with you. Its called talking without knowing the facts. Think what you want, but there was no chasing away being done. On this thread, I give you your props. You have been proven wrong about 75 times, yet you stay in here and continue to think you know what your talking about. Good job. Ignorance, CAN BE, Bliss, i suppose


Keep telling yourself that.

Like I said. Why not come over and berate me at RealGM? Where you DONT have the homecourt advantage? Let's see how YOU handle the pressure of getting raked over the coals by a slew of people. Oh wait! I already seen how you handle it. You vanish.


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

:twave:


----------



## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

I have a question, can people name ONE player who failed in the NBA and the only reason was because he was too skinny?


----------



## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

Anybody want to see Shinky's posts on reparations for black people? If you're black they're a real read


----------



## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> I have a question, can people name ONE player who failed in the NBA and the only reason was because he was too skinny?


Manute Bol, Shawn Bradley


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> I have a question, can people name ONE player who failed in the NBA and the only reason was because he was too skinny?


Keith Closs.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Keith Closs.


He just wasn't very good...

His weight had nothing to do with it...

I know this cuz he was a Clipper.


----------



## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

So the only guys you can come up with are centers. I'm convinced, Shaun Livingston isn't strong enough to play center in the NBA.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> Keep telling yourself that.
> ...


Do you actually think I am afraid of you? I was asked to come back to realgm. I guess you need Duck to save your sorry butt. Instead of turning this personal, make a legit statement instead of some of the crap that has come out of your ***

oh and by the way, your black reparations comments, real classy.


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> He just wasn't very good...
> ...


Agreed.

I just wanted to contribute to this thread.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shinky</b>!
> 
> 
> Keep telling yourself that.
> ...


LOL....

You have homecourt advantage at RealGM, yet lately you're over here.

If you want to take this to RealGM, just say the word.

I'm not afraid to go there or anywhere else.

In fact I'm harsher there than I am here.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> So the only guys you can come up with are centers. I'm convinced, Shaun Livingston isn't strong enough to play center in the NBA.


 This is one of the wittiest posts on this board


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> So the only guys you can come up with are centers. I'm convinced, Shaun Livingston isn't strong enough to play center in the NBA.


Artestfan, if you only knew the history of Shinky, you'd be amazed...

This guy has made comments from Tony Parker is mediocre to Yao Ming is a serviceable center, AT BEST.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Artestfan, if you only knew the history of Shinky, you'd be amazed...
> ...


No the best one was Lebron is going to be a bust


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## Shinky (Feb 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you actually think I am afraid of you? I was asked to come back to realgm. I guess you need Duck to save your sorry butt. Instead of turning this personal, make a legit statement instead of some of the crap that has come out of your ***
> ...


ROFLMAO! Please. You are a joke. I dont think your afraid of me. I do however, think your afraid of getting raked over the coals like I am now. This was made apparent by your vanishing act. 

I have made my statements. Teams should not force their fans to "wait three years" until a draft pick comes around. There SHOULD be an age limit to the draft. 

And about my "Black Reparation" comments? What? If you dont agree with the Black communitty, then your a racist? BTW? Nice try to get more people against me. Talk about classless.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

The three of you again


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> The three of you again


No kidding, what an *** drag.

If you can't be civil toward one another, use the ignore feature.


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