# Bulls Trade Wallace/Smith/Griffin/2nd Rd Pick get Gooden/Hughes/Simmons/S. Brown



## flojoe (Dec 27, 2007)

according to chaad ford maqybe there is a deal sending wallace to cavs,here's the ford's exact words:
Ryan, Chicago: Please tell me Ben Wallace is on the move 


Maybe ... call was about Ben Wallace in a possible deal with the Cavs. I've got to stress that it was from what I'd call a third party source ... not someone directly involved in the negotiations. So ... take it with a grain of salt ... but interesting ... 

bye bye ben!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2::rofl2:


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

its nice to dream


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## flojoe (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

The deal as I heard it(CHAD FORD) ... by the way ... had Drew Gooden, Ira Newble, Shannon Brown and Cederic Simmons coming back to Chicago.


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Yeah if this happens ferry would be fired immediately


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## Case (Dec 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



flojoe said:


> according to chaad ford maqybe there is a deal sending wallace to cavs,here's the ford's exact words:
> Ryan, Chicago: Please tell me Ben Wallace is on the move
> 
> 
> ...


Third party source = message board. Hell, *I* might have said that to Chad Ford.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

I would shoot someone.


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## Case (Dec 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



Brandname said:


> I would shoot someone.


Could you elaborate? Are you a Cavs fan, or think Wallace still has something left in the tank?


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

I'd be ok with this deal but that's about it. I'd rather look at Ben Wallace's fro than Gooden's weird *** beard.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Talent wise this is still a pretty horrible trade for the bulls. I'm actually hoping for Hughes because he is decent. Otherwise the Bulls are just getting crap.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

http://www.basketballforum.com/chic...al-chicago-bulls-trade-deadline-thread-4.html


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## tweedy (Apr 4, 2005)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

According to Ford, Hughes is the hold up in the deal. The Bulls are refusing to take him back.

Proposed deal:

Wallace, Du, and Joe Smith for Gooden and Hughes


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## charlietyra (Dec 1, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



liekomgj4ck said:


> Talent wise this is still a pretty horrible trade for the bulls. I'm actually hoping for Hughes because he is decent. Otherwise the Bulls are just getting crap.


I would be in favor of getting back Gooden and Hughes for Wallace. I wanted Gooden as a FA instead of Wallace all along a couple of years back. The hang-up with Hughes is his contract and health. Based on his performances the last couple of weeks however, it seems that he is pretty much back. His contract would be somewhat of a wash with Wallace but I believe the deal would be a net plus for the Bulls. I am getting to the point where emotionally I just want Ben out of here.

If the Bulls have to give up Duhon in the deal that's ok with me. Reason: I like Du but I don't see him being re-signed by the Bulls. I suspect that if the Bulls wind up in the late lottery they will have a shot at a good backcourt player and Du will be expendable.

Do it Pax. Do it now!


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



Case said:


> Could you elaborate? Are you a Cavs fan, or think Wallace still has something left in the tank?


He's a Cavs fan. Outside of that, I'll let him speak for himself...


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

*Fire Paxson*

No deal. AGAIN.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Fire Paxson*

Why is anyone surprised?


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: Fire Paxson*

I'm not surprised. Just disgusted.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Fire Paxson*

Isn't this a duplicate of like, 12,000 other threads?


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Fire Paxson*

Well lets be fair we dont know for sure until around 5 pm if anything went down.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: Fire Paxson*

I think we all know that nothing went down.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: Fire Paxson*

ESPN1000 has an unconfirmed report that Hughes for Wallace/Duhon did go down, and they're working on confirmation.

Terry Boers mentioned that George Hoffman told the Boers-Bernstein producers a trade did go down, but nothing's been officially released on it.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: Fire Paxson*

JUST Hughes? You're kidding, right?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Fire Paxson*

Can we _please_ keep all this is one thread?


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: Fire Paxson*

Can you PLEASE give a link to your "source", GB?


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

*Re: Fire Paxson*



narek said:


> ESPN1000 has an unconfirmed report that Hughes for Wallace/Duhon did go down, and they're working on confirmation.
> 
> Terry Boers mentioned that George Hoffman told the Boers-Bernstein producers a trade did go down, but nothing's been officially released on it.


That would be like a dream come true, getting rid of my 2 most hated Bulls, by far. Never have liked either one of them at all, at any point in their careers. I don't like Gooden either though, but we'd at least be rid of Duchump and Benedict.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

yeah wallace and du for hughes doesnt work

gooden has to be involved


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

10 player deal.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Fire Paxson*



narek said:


> ESPN1000 has an unconfirmed report that Hughes for Wallace/Duhon did go down, and they're working on confirmation.
> 
> Terry Boers mentioned that George Hoffman told the Boers-Bernstein producers a trade did go down, but nothing's been officially released on it.


Well obviously this doesnt work under trade checkers so we dont know if this is the deal.

The whole point of getting rid of Wallace is to get rid of his contract not to bring back another equally crappy contract! sigh...


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Latest rumor from ESPN1000 - reporting on something ESPN News (which I haven't found there yet) - a 10 player trade with bulls/Sonics/Cavs.


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## flojoe (Dec 27, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



GB said:


> 10 player deal.


meaning?


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Hughes's contract isn't equally crappy...it expires after next season. Wallace has two more after this season.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



narek said:


> Latest rumor from ESPN1000 - reporting on something ESPN News (which I haven't found there yet) - a 10 player trade with bulls/Sonics/Cavs.


It was just mentioned on ESPNews right before the break.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



chibul said:


> Hughes's contract isn't equally crappy...it expires after next season. Wallace has two more after this season.


Trade checker say's both have 2 years left after this one.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

if sonics are involved, do we get wilcox or collison?


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

BULLS GET:
Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, Cedric Simmons

CAVS GET:
Deltonte West, Wally Szczerbiak, Joe Smith, Ben Wallace

SONICS GET:
Chris Duhon, Ira Newble, Donyell Marshall


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

That's on ESPNews right now.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Wallace West and Szczerbiak to Cavs is the only part I just caught on ESPNews. Didn't catch the rest of it. NOT finalized yet.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

The three teams are on the conference call with the NBA right now.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Per ESPN:

Cavs: Wallace, Wally, Joe Smith, Delonte West

Bulls: Larry Hughes, Gooden, Simmons

Sonics: Duhon, Newble, Marshall


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

They're saying it could be 3:45 before we hear for certain...but it sounds like it's done, pending NBA approval.

Ding dong, Big Ben is gone. Hooray!


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



> Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, Cedric Simmons


What does this do for the Bulls?

Gooden keeps Thomas on the Bench
Hughes, Thabo, Gordon ?
Simmons another PF space eater?

3 years left in a big contract with Hughes
2 years left in an average size contract with Gooden
2 years left for a space eater in Simmons


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Gooden is BETTER than Thomas, so I have no problem with that.

Hughes could start at SG, or be the sixth man.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Duhon vs Hughes = Hughes

Wallace vs Gooden = Gooden

Can't spin that bizkit.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

The thing I really don't like about it is we now have TWO more power forwards that aren't very good. Hughes is at least a 6'5" SG that is capable of scoring 20 ppg, so that's a need anyway. Not impressed with any of the guys incoming, but thrilled to get rid of Duchump & Benedict.


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## BenDengGo (Feb 1, 2004)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

hate to see joe and du gone.

whos the new man in the middle? noah?

does this trade mean, finally pt for vyrus?


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Kirk/Gordon
Hughes/Thabo
Deng/Noce/Griff
Tyrus/Simmons
Gooden/Noah/Gray

Liking that ....

Amazingly enough, we're not log jammed anymore


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## ballerkingn (Nov 17, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

if that deals goes through man cavs look scary boy.We look ok,but the cavs are way better and should repeat as the eastern conf champs IMO.Its going to be at least between them and boston.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



GB said:


> Duhon vs Hughes = Hughes
> 
> Wallace vs Gooden = Gooden
> 
> Can't spin that bizkit.


Yeah but look at the big picture.

Gooden = Giving up on Thomas

Hughes = Gordon gone? I dont see how this makes us better at all, Hughes is not going to be a major factore anymore and it seems like Pax is just putting all his hopes on Thabo which would be a huge mistake.

I dont even think we are saving that much cap space.


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## charlietyra (Dec 1, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



chibul said:


> They're saying it could be 3:45 before we hear for certain...but it sounds like it's done, pending NBA approval.
> 
> Ding dong, Big Ben is gone. Hooray!


IMO the Cavs got the best player in the deal--Joe Smith. But the Bulls ain't going anywhere so it is a sacrifice that was needed to get rid of the big cancer. 

Gooden is solid in my book. Not an all-star but I have always liked him for his physical play. He will also give you some offense. Don't understand why he has been traded so often. Seems like a good guy.

If, and a mean a big if, Hughes is over his physical troubles this could be a coup for the Bulls. He can flat out score and also is very good at anticipating on defense. Can play the point for limited minutes.

Simmons is a nobody. Somewhat undersized and has disappointed. Was a work-out wonder. 

On balance I am happy. I would have thrown in the deed to my mother's grave to get rid of Wallace. If this doesn't go down my wife is going to have to hide the gun in the house.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Cavs Get Wallace, Smith, West And Wally
February 21, 2008 - 3:35 pm
ESPN News -
The Cavaliers have acquired Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, Delonte West and Wally Szczerbiak in a three-team trade.

The Bulls receive Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden, while Seattle gets Chris Duhon, Ira Newble and Cedric Simmons.

The deal is currently under league review.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Great job on the merge action Narek.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



thebizkit69u said:


> Yeah but look at the big picture.
> 
> Gooden = Giving up on Thomas


Not at all. In fact, this gets both Tyrus and Noah up and off the bench. Gooden isn't playing 48 minutes for us.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

one of these guys is gone in the offseason

Gordon, Hinrich, Nocioni or Thomas.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



thebizkit69u said:


> one of these guys is gone in the offseason
> 
> Gordon, Hinrich, Nocioni or Thomas.



Why not Gooden or Hughes? Any of the 6 could walk in the right trade. I'd bet its not going to be Tyrus though.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



F.A.B said:


> Cavs Get Wallace, Smith, West And Wally
> February 21, 2008 - 3:35 pm
> ESPN News -
> The Cavaliers have acquired Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, Delonte West and Wally Szczerbiak in a three-team trade.
> ...


The biggest question here is who plays center? I think our only official centers our Noah and Gray

I would like to see a lineup of this...

Kirk/Gordon
Hughes/Thabo
Deng/Noce
Gooden/Tyrus
Noah/Gray

The more I think about this trade I actually like it. I like Larry Hughes alot. Never have seen Gooden play but this trade gets Tyrus, Noah and Gray off the bench a little.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



GB said:


> Not at all. In fact, this gets both Tyrus and Noah up and off the bench. Gooden isn't playing 48 minutes for us.


Gooden is not going to play less minutes than Wallace did. 

Yeah I forgot that they are shipping out Joe Smith also so I can see Thomas being the first option off the bench at the 4. 

This is just one of those whatever trades thats not going to do much for the Bulls in the next 2 years. 

I just cant wait until these contracts are done.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

I guess my Jim Boylan "big ben fro" avatar is short lived :laugh:


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## Brothaman33 (Feb 21, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Gooden > Tyrus?

does Tyrus have a shot at starting?
where does this put Thabo?

Noah
Gooden
Deng
Hughes
Hinrich
???


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

David Aldridge on the trade:



> As the Akron Beacon-Journal first hinted at this a.m., and that the Four-Letter advanced, the Cavs, Bulls and Sonics have pulled the trigger on that big ol' three-way:
> 
> *Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden to Chicago,*
> 
> ...


http://blogs.phillynews.com/inquirer/live/

Wallace said goodbye to everyone at the Berto Center - that's why that part was confirmed locally.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Griffin's also gone, as narek just stated. ESPN1000 just mentioned it, and ESPNews is showing it as an 11 player trade now.

So Bulls ship out Wallace/Smith/Duhon/Griffin and get Hughes/Gooden/Simmons.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/fullcourtpress/2008/02/times-up-on-big.html

Wow. Wallace + Smith for Gooden + Hughes + Simmons.

That's not a terrible trade at all. Gooden is supremely underrated, Hughes gives us defense and size in the backcourt. Hopefully we can lock up Deng:

Hinrich
Hughes
Deng
Gooden
Noah

Gordon, Tyrus, etc. on the bench.

I think Duhon will be dealt at some point very soon. I think the Lakers could use a serious point guard that can defend, although they seem good enough as it is.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Uh...Duhon WAS traded. Today.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Wallace was asked by a reporter if eh felt he was treated fairly during his time with the Bulls, and his comment was that "I'm used to being thrown under the bus". 

What a piece of ****.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



Showtyme said:


> Gooden is supremely underrated


Like Deng?

Sorry, but I think what he's done is the most he's gonna ever do.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



Showtyme said:


> http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/fullcourtpress/2008/02/times-up-on-big.html
> 
> Wow. Wallace + Smith for Gooden + Hughes + Simmons.
> 
> ...


Duhon was just traded


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Trade is official.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3257159


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

In the long run, losing 2 vet post players and just getting Gooden back (plays 30 mpg in Cleveland now) will mean more play time for Tyrus and much less importantly Noah. We now have a 3 man rotation in the post, unless Gray starts getting more minutes, rather than the 4, sometimes 5 man rotation we had before. I'm actually glad we're not getting Simmons back. That's that much less salary, and 1 less player to take up minutes where we need to develop our young guys (Tyrus/Noah). 

As for the backcourt, if Hughes can play some point, he and Thabs would maybe be good compliments to Ben. I like that trade, though as I said before not a fan of the incoming players. Addition by subtraction due to not having to put up with Chump and Benedict, and also freeing up some minutes for Tyrus. 

I'm looking at it as no Benedict and more minutes for Tyrus as the biggest positives, moreso than adding any real talent.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Gooden is a good pickup for you guys. And Hughes actually probably fits for you guys. Hughes has actually been playing well of late(part of why this deal got made I'm sure).

It's a good deal for the Bulls. The only downside was losing Duhon, but that's not much of a downside.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

ESPN is now saying Duhon stays, and Griffin was the substitute for him.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Yikes, sorry, I was going off of ChicagoSports.com

Anyway. I like all the players we're getting. Shannon Brown's a very decent player, and Cedric Simmons has promise. I don't know if either will have a permanent home here, but they could be rotation players for sure.

I like our team a lot.

Why did Seattle feel like they needed Duhon?

Cleveland just stacked up on shooting and depth, as well as size. Crazy how good they complete they are now.


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## WestHighHawk (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

ESPN news just said that Duhon was not a part of any trade today.


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## Case (Dec 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



chibul said:


> Wallace was asked by a reporter if eh felt he was treated fairly during his time with the Bulls, and his comment was that "I'm used to being thrown under the bus".
> 
> What a piece of ****.


Doesn't matter anymore, because that POS is gone!!!


I'm happy for that reason alone, although I'm really bummed that Joe Smith is gone. Still, I'm glad he went to a contender - he deserves it.

I wouldn't count on getting anything from Larry Hughes; from what I've heard, he's done. I hope he's over the injury woes, but I won't believe it until I see it. I'm disappointed that Duhon is gone, and that Grffin got sent to Seattle (where basketball goes to die...and then the carcass gets shipped off to Oklahoma City or some other town).

I think I'm going to hold off on judgment right now.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Shannon Brown also went to Seattle.

So the end result is that we shipped out Griffin, Wallace, and Smith and got Gooden, Simmons, & Hughes. I'm cool with it.

Backcourt looks like Thabo is the odd man out, with Duhon/Hinrich/Gordon/Hughes now.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Wow,

I live in washtington and i really liked Hughes game. I think CLE was a bad match for hims since he really needs to play with a playmaking PG since he is more a finisher and scorer than pure Jump shot guy. He is also big 6'6" and plays good d and has good hands to force TO. Losing BW is great for us he is a cancer and i cant stand Du. Maybe if he practiced his J instead of partying all the time his FG % would be over 40%. I also like that Gooden can score and he will be a good match with Noel. Still we now have four guards again.

Great trade for us.

david


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## charlietyra (Dec 1, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



chibul said:


> Wallace was asked by a reporter if eh felt he was treated fairly during his time with the Bulls, and his comment was that "I'm used to being thrown under the bus".
> 
> What a piece of ****.


Truly hysterical. Here is a guy who got $60 million and all he did was complain about his headband, his coach, and god knows what else from the moment he got here. He wasn't a "locker-room presence" but a "locker-room cancer." I thought he got a complete pass on this board for his choke act during the Pistons series last year. Supposedly the rumor was that he had a bad back but I thought that was BS. He just played poorly.


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## tweedy (Apr 4, 2005)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

The ESPN report has the Bulls receiving Shannon Brown. And we're keeping Duhon.

Backcourt's suddenly deep:

Hinrich/Duhon
Gordon/Hughes/Thabo/Brown


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Damn! Duchump is staying!  That just depressed the hell outta me.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Can someone crunch the cap numbers?

Does anyone know if Hughes and Goodens contracts are back loaded?

Lets take a quick look,

Bulls bring in 
Gooden 6.4 mil
Hughes 12 mil
Simmons 1.6 mil

Total 20 Mil

Bulls send out

Wallace 15.5
Smith 5.2
Griff 1.6

total 22.3

Bulls save 2.3 Million... Meh.


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## Case (Dec 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

I'm trying to figure out how this won't squeeze out Thabo, considering his recent development. It would be a shame to see him lost in the shuffle again.


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## Case (Dec 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



thebizkit69u said:


> Can someone crunch the cap numbers?
> 
> Does anyone know if Hughes and Goodens contracts are back loaded?
> 
> ...


Honestly, do you really care? It's money out of Jerry's pocket, not any of ours. We weren't getting under the cap, so an extra $2.3 million is nothing.


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## JPTurbo (Jan 8, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



chibul said:


> Shannon Brown also went to Seattle.
> 
> So the end result is that we shipped out Griffin, Wallace, and Smith and got Gooden, Simmons, & Hughes. I'm cool with it.
> 
> Backcourt looks like Thabo is the odd man out, with Duhon/Hinrich/Gordon/Hughes now.


Thabo may be the odd man out for the rest of the season, but I think this deal shows how little time Gordon has left with the Bulls.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

we really should of sent Duhon out and had Kirk/Gordon at point.


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## Brothaman33 (Feb 21, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

ESPN says that we get Shannon Brown too...


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

It seems like a pretty salary neutral move.

I like it from a fans perspective.

I could not stomach one more gong. 

Hughes looks pretty much done but if Gooden can get back to the state he was in the last two seasons, we'll have a nice, productive PF going forward who is better age aligned with the rest of our guys.

"Win Later" it is! It should have always been that way.

Pretty OK escape from an awful, awful situation by Paxson.

I could give a rats *** about how Wallace plays for the Cavs. 

He was awful here and I'm glad to see him go.


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## tweedy (Apr 4, 2005)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

K.C. reports



> "It is a relief," Wallace said. "I just have to play basketball."


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Nice trade. Is it tremendous? No, but we get rid of Wallace. In order to do that we had to deal Smith. I am going to miss Joe. 

Gooden, Hughes, Simmons. 

Now, Gray, Noah, and TT will play.


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## Case (Dec 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



kukoc4ever said:


> I could give a rats *** about how Wallace plays for the Cavs.
> 
> He was awful here and I'm glad to see him go.


I think we agree on something for the first time. :clap2:


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



kukoc4ever said:


> It seems like a pretty salary neutral move.
> 
> I like it from a fans perspective.
> 
> ...


Aw, in a year or two you aren't going to be making "we should of kept Big Ben" threads? 

Can I get that on paper? :laugh:


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



liekomgj4ck said:


> Aw, in a year or two you aren't going to be making "we should of kept Big Ben" threads?
> 
> Can I get that on paper? :laugh:



:greatjob:

Bookmark this page.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



GB said:


> :greatjob:
> 
> Bookmark this page.



:rofl: I already did


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



Case said:


> Honestly, do you really care? It's money out of Jerry's pocket, not any of ours. We weren't getting under the cap, so an extra $2.3 million is nothing.


Heck yeah I care! 

Cap space is very important.


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## charlietyra (Dec 1, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



JPTurbo said:


> Thabo may be the odd man out for the rest of the season, but I think this deal shows how little time Gordon has left with the Bulls.



Thabo is not the odd man out. This trade means that the Bulls are looking to the future and are going to give the younger guys more burn. The three guys that were traded were the oldest guys on the team.

You are correct, however, regarding Gordon. If Hughes can recover his form you can say good-bye to Gordon this summer. The Bulls are not going to give $50 million to a 6th or 7th man when they are already on the hook for $26 million with Hughes for two years and $7.5 million a year with Nocioni for the next four.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



> "I had a good time here," Wallace said Thursday. "I enjoyed being one of the guys. And I had a good season *last year*."


Great irony -- he gets to help LeBron knock off the Pistons...


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



liekomgj4ck said:


> Aw, in a year or two you aren't going to be making "we should of kept Big Ben" threads?


Nah, just goes to show that you don't really pay attention to what I write. 

Bookmark away.

Ben Wallace was a brutal signing and getting a bag of hammers for him is a winning siutation.

We'll have to see how the salary plays out though, that's the one caveat.

If this move means no Gordon/Deng, then I'll be dissapointed. Yet another ramification to Paxson's brutal 3 year Cap Space building / botching.

This move is an admission of failure from Paxson for his really only big move other than burning away lotto picks and dumping off young, productive 7 footers.






From a season ticket holders perspective with several more games to go to for the rest of the year, I'm glad I never have to see the wretched Ben Wallace again.

GONG!


Sad to see winner, Team USA Chandler doing so well for the best team in West for less money than Paxson paid the guy he just dumped. At least he knows he ****ed up.

Poor Scott Skiles. Maybe they can bring him back now.


----


Does this really help the Bulls win more basketball games? Nah, not really, not short term. But it should free up a ton of minutes (i hope) for TT and Noah, and if Gooden can get back to is old form that should be a pretty good trio going forward.

Still though, its going to be a long time until we're #3 in the East again with our starting 4 and 5 leading the way.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

I'm just thrilled with this deal. Obviously, we won't be raising banners this year because of it, but I thought it was perhaps going to be impossible to move Wallace, but it was done.

Gooden is a nice player and I'll be happy to watch him play. Shipping out Wallace and Smith means we'll be able to get the young bigs more burn, which is great.

Hughes is a total question mark. He used to be quite good, but he may be done. It's worth taking that chance on the talented guy to see whether he can get healthy and be productive. If so, Gordon's likely gone. If not, that remains to be seen. 

I believe (and hope) that Duhon, not Thabo, is the odd man out in the guard rotation. Duhon doesn't deserve the minutes.

I hope this provides a bit of a spark to go on a good run for the rest of the year. We'll see.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Getting rid of Wallace is a BIG positive. But having seen a lot of Gooden and Hughes in Cleveland...they're average players at best and won't help this team much.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

My thoughts. 

I'm not exactly sure why Duhon didn't end up heading to Seattle as an expiring deal, but it isn't a terrible situation for us. k4e, I know you hated Griffin's deal, and so that's another bad contract that seems to be gone. 

Wallace was a cancer and his time was up here. I think that Noah will bring exactly what Wallace brought but is younger and better on the offensive end. Plus we lose a year on Wallace's mammoth deal. I really, really hope Larry can find his game again although he has been better as of late. I've always advocated trading for Gooden and he definitely replaces what Joe Smith gave us with a little more on the offensive end. Plus, he's more of a banger than Joe is. 

The lineup I have in my head right now is...

PG-Kirk Hinrich
SG-Larry Hughes
SF-Luol Deng
PF-Drew Gooden
C-Joakim Noah

6th Man-Ben Gordon(1/2)
7th Man-Andres Nocioni(3/4)
8th Man-Tyrus Thomas
Backup Guard-Chris Duhon
Backup Wing-Thabo Sefolosha
Backup Post-Aaron Gray

That's 10 guys I'd feel comfortable playing at any time. We can run with Hughes at the point and Gordon at the 2 if Kirk isn't playing well. Thabo is essentially a poor man's Larry so if Hughes does go down, we've got a built in replacement. This frees up time for Tyrus and Noah to get a lot of burn and we can go super athletic with Tyrus and Noah, big with Gooden and Noah, or heavy on the offense with Tyrus and Gooden. We've got two really good scorers off the bench. 

I really, really like this trade for the Bulls. Plus,

Luol Deng(23)
Chris Duhon(26)
Ben Gordon(25)
Aaron Gray(23)
Kirk Hinrich(27)
Joakim Noah(23)
Andres Nocioni(29)
Thabo Sefolosha(24)
Tyrus Thomas(21)
Drew Gooden(26)
Larry Hughes(29)

Last time I checked, that's our top 11 guys and not one of them is over 30 with Hughes and Nocioni at 29 as the old men of the group.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Hopefully Larry Hughes can keep up his February performance here. Check this out...

19 PPG
4.5 RPG
2.2 APG
1 SPG
43.9% FG
34.1% 3PT
44 FTA

God, this becomes an absolute steal if Hughes can get back to his old form especially given Hughes size and his proficiency on the defensive end.


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## Case (Dec 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Gooden for Wallace alone is a steal.

February is too small of a sample size for Hughes, but it's a glimmer of hope.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



T.Shock said:


> My thoughts.
> 
> I'm not exactly sure why Duhon didn't end up heading to Seattle as an expiring deal, but it isn't a terrible situation for us. k4e, I know you hated Griffin's deal, and so that's another bad contract that seems to be gone.
> 
> ...


Good Post. I'm liking the lineup. Which I explored in the previous page I think, which no one has commented on. I love the age of our team, getting rid of the old men :laugh: 

Kirk/Gordon/Duhon
Hughes/Thabo
Deng/Noce
Gooden/Tryus
Noah/Gray

I can't remember, I've heard different things, but a plus if we get Simmons. Maybe we can work with him and have him end up being something.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



SPMJ said:


> Getting rid of Wallace is a BIG positive. But having seen a lot of Gooden and Hughes in Cleveland...they're average players at best and won't help this team much.


The way I look at it is like this,

Hughes gets his points by jacking up 15+ shots and hoping that 39% of those shots go in and half of Goodens rebounds come from picking up Hughes bricks.


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## fuzznuts (May 23, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



T.Shock said:


> My thoughts.
> 
> I'm not exactly sure why Duhon didn't end up heading to Seattle as an expiring deal, but it isn't a terrible situation for us. k4e, I know you hated Griffin's deal, and so that's another bad contract that seems to be gone.
> 
> ...



agreed.

and plus, it's nice to not read that vets Griffin and Wallace holding player only meetings that no one responds to. 

It really gives the team that leadership and responsibility that Hinrich and Deng should be giving.


oh yeah, and maybe the reuniting of the former kansas Hinirch and Gooden make for some good chemistry.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Initial reation:
Thank god Wallace is gone!
I like Drew Gooden (if he can play like the last 2 season)

But, we'll have to see how the dust settles to make a final analysis.
Things I'm concerned about....

CONCERNS

Salary.
Hughes is a brutal contract. Gooden makes a decent buck.
Sure, the awful Wallace contract and the puzzling HAWK contract are gone, but where are the Bulls salary wise at the end of the deal?

If the Bulls are worse off salary wise, does this mean no Gordon or Deng?

Does having Hughes and Thabo mean its a lock Ben Gordon is gone?

This could be the end of Ben Gordon, our best scorer on a very scoring deprived team. How are we going to fix that?

Also, this is the end of "the core four" which was supposedly the reason behind making the Chandler dump. Looks like Paxson was filled with lies or just ineffective when he talking about his desire to retain "the core four."


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



T.Shock said:


> Hopefully Larry Hughes can keep up his February performance here. Check this out...
> 
> 19 PPG
> 4.5 RPG
> ...


Dont get too excited about those stats, hes playing next to one of the greatest players ever who gets double and triple teamed. Lets see how he does with Noah, Hinrich and Thomas around him lol.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

am i the only one that thinks simmons can become something good?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



F.A.B said:


> am i the only one that thinks simmons can become something good?


Mostly.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Can we all agree that this was just a trade to get rid of Ben Wallace lol, Wow I'm just surprised how excited some of you guys are about trading for Drew Gooden and a done Larry hughes lol. This is a get rid of Wallace trade, nothing more and nothing less.

This doesnt make the Bulls better this year or next year.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



F.A.B said:


> am i the only one that thinks simmons can become something good?


Yes


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

I love keeping Duhon instead of Griffin... 

I'll go on the record now as in favor of this trade purely because it gets rid of Ben Wallace, who I cannot stand. Addition by subtraction.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

This really does not make us that better basketball wise, IMO, although Gooden could be a nice improvement over Wallace if he gets back to his old self.

This does free up time for Noah/TT and from a strictly entertainment perspective makes the Bulls a more palatable watch. I was not really looking forward to going to the rest of my games for the season. Now, at least for the next few weeks, I'll be entertained and not have to stomach another wretched GONG.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Keeping Duhon over Griff is a plus just because Duhon is in his last year.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

670 said we are getting Shannon Brown also, which is it Shannon to Seattle or Shannon to the Bulls?


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

73 people viewing this tread


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



kukoc4ever said:


> This really does not make us that better basketball wise, IMO, although Gooden could be a nice improvement over Wallace if he gets back to his old self.
> 
> This does free up time for Noah/TT and from a strictly entertainment perspective makes the Bulls a more palatable watch. I was not really looking forward to going to the rest of my games for the season. Now, at least for the next few weeks, I'll be entertained and not have to stomach another wretched GONG.


Gooden from Joe Smith is kind of a push for me... I like them both as rotation guys in the front court. Going from Wallace to more minutes for Tyrus and Noah.... that ought to make us better from a basketball perspective right there...


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



Dornado said:


> Gooden from Joe Smith is kind of a push for me... I like them both as rotation guys in the front court. Going from Wallace to more minutes for Tyrus and Noah.... that ought to make us better from a basketball perspective right there...


I'm voting for Gray to start.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

Yowza, reading is fundamental, I missed that Joe Smith is out the door.

Smith has been much better than Gooden this year, although Gooden is the better rebounder and has less mileage.

Yah, a wash at best basketball wise short term.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



kukoc4ever said:


> Initial reation:
> Thank god Wallace is gone!


Agreed.



> I like Drew Gooden (if he can play like the last 2 season)


Me too. Not a world-beater, but a good rebounder and not offensively inept.



> But, we'll have to see how the dust settles to make a final analysis.
> Things I'm concerned about....
> 
> CONCERNS
> ...


Hughes is definitely a brutal contract. Wallace was too at this point. At least this year, it looks like we're saving a couple million. Hughes's deal and Wallace's appear to be a wash. So is it looking at Griffin + Smith vs. Gooden? I'll leave it up to the cap gurus.



> If the Bulls are worse off salary wise, does this mean no Gordon or Deng?


I think Deng stays. I don't think it's necessarily the salary implications of this move that will make Gordon leave.



> Does having Hughes and Thabo mean its a lock Ben Gordon is gone?


Not a bad chance. A lot of that depends on Hughes's health, I think. Thabo's emergence doesn't help Ben. The big question mark is what ben's salary expectations will be this off-season. He took a gamble this past offseason by turning down the deal and so far hasn't played well enough to expect to have raised his market value. Quite the contrary. I'm not sure who is going to be inclined to give him a big payday, but it only takes one.



> This could be the end of Ben Gordon, our best scorer on a very scoring deprived team. How are we going to fix that?


We weren't scoring deprived last year. But I agree, if Gordon's gone and Hughes isn't healthy, this is a definite question mark. I doubt, though, that this current squad is Paxson's "final" team unless they play great for the rest of the season. I expect more moves this summer.



> Also, this is the end of "the core four" which was supposedly the reason behind making the Chandler dump. Looks like Paxson was filled with lies or just ineffective when he talking about his desire to retain "the core four."


Yes. He was "filled with lies." Get real. The team underperformed greatly this year, and the GM is responding. It doesn't mean he didn't actually view the core as being the core. Chalk it up to misjudging the players, the players having given up on the team and/or coach, the players being dejected about the lack of extensions, injuries to the core, or some combination thereof, I suppose.


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## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



kukoc4ever said:


> Also, this is the end of "the core four" which was supposedly the reason behind making the Chandler dump. Looks like Paxson was filled with lies or just ineffective when he talking about his desire to retain "the core four."


Pax's is a lier?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



Electric Slim said:


> Pax's is a lier?


You spell like the average barkeep.


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## BenDengGo (Feb 1, 2004)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

hughes last year in washington was awesome, he was a defensive stud averaging almost 3 steals a game. but hes not a good percentage shooter. we already suck as a team in shooting.

i like that we kept duho, i dont get all the hate, he's a very good backup pg.

griffin contract was terrible, but he was a good character guy.

i hate to see joe gone, he was a very good offensive weapon in the post + he had good size.

gooden is useless on defense, has some good post moves but he is undersized he can stay under one condition, he hast to shave of his al-quaida beard!!!

first we have a fro, now we have someone with a fro beard.

cavs meanwhile are totaly stacked, the get to the conference finals if the gel.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



kukoc4ever said:


> You spell like the average barkeep.



The average barkeep resents that remark.

:biggrin:


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

If Hughes plays like his last year in Wash its a freaking steal for the Bulls!

But, I've been told over and over that its not going to happen, and it hasn't happened in Clev.

I loved his game in Wash.


---

The Cavs do indeed look stacked.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



thebizkit69u said:


> Can we all agree that this was just a trade to get rid of Ben Wallace lol, Wow I'm just surprised how excited some of you guys are about trading for Drew Gooden and a done Larry hughes lol. This is a get rid of Wallace trade, nothing more and nothing less.
> 
> This doesnt make the Bulls better this year or next year.


I agree with you (for once).

:biggrin:


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: Bulls Trade Wallace/Smith/Griffin get Gooden/Hughes/S. Brown*

I dont call Gooden for Smith a wash.


Joe Smith hit a lot of jumpers for us. Provided offense, but again, for a primarily jumpshooting-already team.

Unquestionably, the man was not moving around too well out there. The knee was an issue, and his only hope on defense was taking charges.



Gooden is younger, able to rebound, and can give you some offense. I dont call that one a wash. We got a big who can play.



Wallace for Hughes makes sense for me. We need a big guard like Hughes who can handle it, play alongside Gordon. If Hughes can revitalize his career here, this trade is an excellent one. And even if he cant, he's likely moveable next trading deadline onward.

I still see Ben Wallace as viable. He just needs to be in a place with a high powered offense. Now he'll be alongside Lebron... exactly the right place for him. Cleveland still sees that he's getting blocks and steals... doing the sorts of things he did with Detroit. Being quick-handed down low


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## Qwerty123 (May 31, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

I'm ecstatic about the deal, but you can't give Pax too much credit since he put us in this situation in the first place. I just wanted to state that for the record but really don't want to derail this joyous thread by rehashing the past.

I think it's a great trade for all teams because the incoming players are a better fit with the guys already in place. The Cavs needed more 3-point shooting and interior defense. They can much easier afford to play 4 on 5 offensively with the other scorers on that team whereas the Bulls could not overcome Wallace's offensive ineptitude. Hughes can't hit a jumper, which is important with LeBron penetrating and Ilgauskas drawing double teams in the post, and Hughes' slashing was less important with LeBron around to do that. Szczerbiak's shooting skills are better suited for that team.

Meanwhile, Gooden gives us more of a post presence, and Hughes gives us a bigger slashing guard with handles. His poor shooting can hopefully be overcome by surrounding him with other shooters like Hinrich, Gordon, and Noc. And hopefully Tyrus and Noah can erase some of the defensive lapses Gooden is prone to.

As for finances, it's basically neutral. We save $1.2 million this year, pay an extra $500k next year, and save $350k the following year. Using MikeDC's projections, that leaves about $18-19 million to resign Deng and Gordon next year without paying the tax. I'm actually surprised Pax took Simmons back since he's under contract for $1.7 million next year, which could have given us a little more wiggle room.

As for the minutes distribution, this should be great for Thomas and Noah (~25 mpg each). Gooden's going to have to log most of his minutes at center just for a lack of other options. Deng and Noc will hold down the SF, with Noc getting some minutes at PF. Hinrich and Gordon should continue to get their 35 minutes, which just leaves 26 minutes for Hughes, Sefolosha, and Duhon. Someone or someones are going to be left out, but I just hope the coaching staff lets the players settle that battle themselves. It's very likely Thabo is left in the dark, though.

Overall, a great day for the Bulls!


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



kukoc4ever said:


> If Hughes plays like his last year in Wash its a freaking steal for the Bulls!
> 
> But, I've been told over and over that its not going to happen, and it hasn't happened in Clev.
> 
> ...


If hes not going to be good with Lebron James by his side hes not going to be good with Joakim Noah by his side.


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## SPIN DOCTOR (Oct 31, 2002)

It a simple crap for crap deal.

But then I see that we get two projected starters (albeit not very good ones), and I think we did pretty well considering that albatross of a contract that Wallace carried.

Not a bad days work.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



Qwerty123 said:


> but you can't give Pax too much credit since he put us in this situation in the first place.


Give him credit for recognizing and fixing a problem. Unlike the Blackhawks for so many years. Unlike the Clippers for so many years.

The man wants to win.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

So with Joe Smith and Ben Wallace out, that opens up a lot of minutes for Thomas and Noah.

I'm assuming Drew Gooden will start, but who starts at center? For fantasy purposes, who becomes a better pickup - Thomas or Noah? I like them both if they're getting minutes.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

I kind of commented early and then left because I didn't think it would get done.

But needless to say, I really like this trade much more than the original one proposed. It may take a while, but I assume you guys will find out just how much Gooden can hurt a team defensively. He has a good midrange jumper though.

I have wanted to get rid of Hughes since he's been with the Cavs. However, he's been playing really well lately, and I've openly wondered whether he's turning the corner. You guys might have bought him really low if he can keep this up. I think time will tell. He's a very good perimeter defender though.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



thebizkit69u said:


> If hes not going to be good with Lebron James by his side hes not going to be good with Joakim Noah by his side.


You never know. 

Hughes problem with the Cavs never really was about who was around him. It was always about his willingness to drive. He tends to play scared, probably because he gets injured all the time, and he launches bad, contested 22 footers. He's played well recently, so I hope for your sake that he's turned the corner.

But it's pretty much all up to Hughes how he does in Chicago. If he goes back to driving and drawing fouls, he can be a very effective player.


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## Bullsky (Jun 11, 2006)

I like our additions. Wallace just doesn't have it this year.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Brandname said:


> I kind of commented early and then left because I didn't think it would get done.
> 
> But needless to say, I really like this trade much more than the original one proposed. It may take a while, but I assume you guys will find out just how much Gooden can hurt a team defensively. He has a good midrange jumper though.
> 
> I have wanted to get rid of Hughes since he's been with the Cavs. However, he's been playing really well lately, and I've openly wondered whether he's turning the corner. You guys might have bought him really low if he can keep this up. I think time will tell. He's a very good perimeter defender though.


I think this was a situation where two guys who could potentially be difference makers didn't really like their current situations, had otherwise untradeable contracts, but both fan bases wanted them out of here. If Hughes plays like he did in Washington, we have a steal. If Wallace plays like he did in Detroit, you've got a steal. I like the Gooden for Smith upgrade largely because we already are a good defensive team and Hughes actually makes us better on the perimeter, defense wise. 

In my mind,

Gooden is an upgrade over Griffin/Smith because he's younger, has played with Hinrich before, and is more of a banger and low post scorer than Smith was. 

Wallace and Hughes are basically a wash unless one starts playing like he used to. If its Hughes, we suddenly look really, really good. If its Wallace, suddenly the Cavs are right next to Boston in terms of contenders. If its both, well we both win. If its neither, then we both lose.


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## ballerkingn (Nov 17, 2006)

im glad big ben is gone.never liked the signing,but once we beat the heat i started to really appericate wallace.Still though i glad he's gone,someone who looks good with his body and all,but sucks when it really comes to playing basketball.I think though in a system like the cav's he will get a chance to be a role player and be forgotten behind lebron.And i think be more appericated,because he won't have to do to much and be a role player again.


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



thebizkit69u said:


> If hes not going to be good with Lebron James by his side hes not going to be good with Joakim Noah by his side.


I dont really agree with this.

Lebron and Hughes are slashing guards. Hows Lebron going to make Larry better directly? Lebron makes Boobie better, as we saw in the playoffs last yr.

We're a jumpshooting team. I think it's a fit w/ Hughes slashing here.

I could see Hughes getting to the line better than most anything else we've got. There are question marks, but if we're talking about making others better, he has a shot here.



Thabo is a slashing guard, by the way, but I think his shooting is so poor that no one really feels they have to respect it at all.


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## BeZerker2008 (Jun 29, 2006)

I for one am glad Wallace is gone, while it doesn't necessarily make us a better basketball team it does at least gives (me at least) hope that these guys we got will contribute to the team and somehow that can only be a positive from receiving hardly much (effort-wise) from wallace. 

It'll also be interesting to see if wallace will be a cancer to Cleveland and break down that team like it did ours, the bright side is if wallace does get into players heads it can offer a glimmer of hope we could somehow get James.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



DengNabbit said:


> I dont really agree with this.
> 
> Lebron and Hughes are slashing guards. Hows Lebron going to make Larry better directly? Lebron makes Boobie better, as we saw in the playoffs last yr.
> 
> ...


Hughes is not strictly a slashing guard , with how frequently Hughes gets injured what makes you even think hes going to continue his "slashing ways"? 

Hughes loves to take any kind of shot and if you think hes going to be a better player because hes not playing along side Lebron James well you are going to be very surprised lol.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

I think the minutes will go something like this:

Hinrich 30+
Hughes 25
Deng 30
Gooden 30+ (some at C)
Noah 25 

Gordon 25 (pg/sg)
Nocioni 25 (sf/pf)
Thomas 25 (pf/sf/c)
Sefolosha 15 (pg/sg)
Duchump 10 (pg)
Gray 10 (c)

That adds up to 250 minutes, 140 by starters, 110 by bench. Just a coincidence that it turned out close to the 240 total minutes in a game, so hopefully you could cut out Duchump's 10 minutes and it'd even out just perfectly.


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## charlietyra (Dec 1, 2002)

DaBabyBullz said:


> I think the minutes will go something like this:
> 
> Hinrich 30+
> Hughes 25
> ...


I don't see Hughes starting over Thabo. Thabo has made great strides in the past few weeks and benching him would set him back. I just don't think Pax and Boylan would be that stupid (wait a minute, we're talking about Pax here). I think the plan is to free up time for the young players to develop. Thabo will continue to start unless he plays himself back to the bench. You are right about Noah starting at center and Gooden at PF.

Actually I give Pax props for cleaning up his own mess.


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



thebizkit69u said:


> Hughes is not strictly a slashing guard
> 
> Hughes loves to take any kind of shot


The any kind of shot Hughes was a Cleveland creation. At Washington, where he was very successful, he was almost always a slasher.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



GB said:


> The any kind of shot Hughes was a Cleveland creation. At Washington, where he was very successful, he was almost always a slasher.


Actually, the any kind of shot Hughes is strictly a Hughes creation.

He took long jumpers all the time even when he had driving lanes. Frankly he just played scared/content with his new contract. 

He just refused to drive even when the lane was completely open. Can he turn it around with the Bulls? Sure, maybe. But it will have to entirely be because of changes he makes to himself. He just has to be committed to not taking lazy jumpers all the time.


----------



## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

Update: I just updated my nba2k8 roster and played the cavs as the bulls and guess what? We still suck. :laugh:


----------



## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

liekomgj4ck said:


> Update: I just updated my nba2k8 roster and played the cavs as the bulls and guess what? We still suck. :laugh:


same here except hughes is a beast and drew gooden sux balls


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



Brandname said:


> Actually, the any kind of shot Hughes is strictly a Hughes creation.
> 
> He took long jumpers all the time even when he had driving lanes. Frankly he just played scared/content with his new contract.
> 
> He just refused to drive even when the lane was completely open. Can he turn it around with the Bulls? Sure, maybe. But it will have to entirely be because of changes he makes to himself. He just has to be committed to not taking lazy jumpers all the time.


Spoken like a bitter Cavs fan. :rofl2:


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## RageofDaBulls (Feb 2, 2007)

liekomgj4ck said:


> Update: I just updated my nba2k8 roster and played the cavs as the bulls and guess what? We still suck. :laugh:


These are humans not polygons and 1's 0's..

I For one love the trade and cant wait to see how our new guys are used.i hated losing Smith and really wished Ben would have pushed himself more instead of being a lazyass.i still remember the night he signed,it felt like we really got someone who WOULD put us over the top,but again these are humans and they make their own way.

Pax proved alot of us wrong today and made most of us very happy,now he needs to build on this in the off season..NO MORE GIMMICKS,just put together a REAL Basketball team and lets move forward ..


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

F.A.B said:


> same here except hughes is a beast and drew gooden sux balls


I died laughing watching Ben Wallace shoot up bricks in a Cavs uniform. Priceless seeing Lebron drive to the hoop only to pass it out to Big Ben for the MISS.

:rofl2: have fun Lebron


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



GB said:


> Spoken like a bitter Cavs fan. :rofl2:


No, I have nothing against Larry Hughes the person. I have just watched his game for the past couple of years, and I know what he's good at and what he's bad at. 

He's a really good defender. Everyone who says he's overrated defensively because he just plays the passing lanes is wrong. He plays his man straight up and does a very good job of it. He can guard players much smaller than him because of his quickness as well.

It's his offensive basketball IQ that will drive you guys nuts. Just like Gooden's defensive IQ. He takes a lot of contested 22 footers, never gives up the ball on the break, and pulls up for jumpers on the fast break very often. It's extremely frustrating. I do hope that he works out for you because I don't like to see him struggle. But he really is going to have to make changes to his game for it to work. Right now, he just doesn't try to be agressive (with the exception of these past few weeks).

I won't try to bring Larry Hughes down because he left. Just trying to offer some perspective from someone who's watched him play every game over the past couple years.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Question: How have Wallace's hands been for you? Could he catch Lebron's passes under the basket and dunk them, or does he have stone hands like Kwame Brown?


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

Brandname said:


> Question: How have Wallace's hands been for you? Could he catch Lebron's passes under the basket and dunk them, or does he have stone hands like Kwame Brown?


imo: he catches well he just can't put it through the hoop. :thinking2:


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Brandname said:


> Question: How have Wallace's hands been for you? Could he catch Lebron's passes under the basket and dunk them, or does he have stone hands like Kwame Brown?


His hands are okay, but any smart opponent usually just hacks the crap out of him and as we all know he can't shoot free throws with a lick. I think he'll turn out okay in Cleveland, but if you thought Hughes was bad on the offensive end, you haven't seen anything. 

Again, if Wallace tries hard (which he didn't this season), he'll work out fantastically for you guys. If he puts in the effort he put in so far this year, you guys will be disappointed. Plus, he's lost a little of the hop he once had. He's not nearly the defensive force he was three years ago.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

For my last thought of the night, I offer you this...

If you are a Bulls fan, pray to something holy. Pray that Larry Hughes decides to be the Washington Wizards Larry Hughes instead of the Cleveland Cavaliers Larry Hughes.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

liekomgj4ck said:


> I died laughing watching Ben Wallace shoot up bricks in a Cavs uniform. Priceless seeing Lebron drive to the hoop only to pass it out to Big Ben for the MISS.
> 
> :rofl2: have fun Lebron


i was pissed as fack

drew gooden was like 0-13

hughes was ballin though

he had like 34 points and 7 steals


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



kukoc4ever said:


> Initial reation:
> Thank god Wallace is gone!
> I like Drew Gooden (if he can play like the last 2 season)
> 
> ...


I think Gordon is gone. I dont see pax signing both Deng and Gordon. 

As for lies, I disagree. There is one thing saying he wants to keep the core, then there is a reality of the players themselves and JR. I wouldn't call it lies. He may be saying he wants keep the core, knowing all the while he cant. Nothing wrong with wanting to...


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

T.Shock said:


> For my last thought of the night, I offer you this...
> 
> If you are a Bulls fan, pray to something holy. Pray that Larry Hughes decides to be the Washington Wizards Larry Hughes instead of the Cleveland Cavaliers Larry Hughes.


What if I have no god to pray to?


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

liekomgj4ck said:


> What if I have no god to pray to?


pray to me


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

T.Shock said:


> His hands are okay, but any smart opponent usually just hacks the crap out of him and as we all know he can't shoot free throws with a lick. I think he'll turn out okay in Cleveland, but if you thought Hughes was bad on the offensive end, you haven't seen anything.
> 
> Again, if Wallace tries hard (which he didn't this season), he'll work out fantastically for you guys. If he puts in the effort he put in so far this year, you guys will be disappointed. Plus, he's lost a little of the hop he once had. He's not nearly the defensive force he was three years ago.


Yeah, I fully expect him to be a complete offensive liability.

The one thing I'm hoping he can provide is defensive rotation. Our biggest problem with Drew is that he would fail to rotate on defense, *all the time*. I know Wallace can't even block shots/rebound like he could in Detroit, but I just want someone to be guarding Z's man when he rotates to another player. 

From what I know about Wallace, his help defense is pretty good, even though he's not the defensive player he used to be. Gooden just got LOST out there on D, and that's what finally pushed our organization over the edge with him. We'd give up too many layups and dunks with him on the court.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

F.A.B said:


> i was pissed as fack
> 
> drew gooden was like 0-13
> 
> ...


I just played Tyrus and Noah for 35 minutes. Their rating is 75-76 Gooden is like a freaking 71. Surprisingly they made some jumpers on the pick and roll :clap:


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

liekomgj4ck said:


> I just played Tyrus and Noah for 35 minutes. Their rating is 75-76 Gooden is like a freaking 71. Surprisingly they made some jumpers on the pick and roll :clap:


i know goodens rating sucked balls

so i upgraded him to a 79 

improved inside, offensive post and offensive awareness

now i dont know shiet about gooden so he might suck in all those categories, but i still decided to upgrade him


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

I really like this trade.

Not quite a "steal", but it's solid.

Shipping Wallace out will open minutes for Noah & Gray at center, which is essential.

Getting value for Joe Smith while his stock was high was a great move, too.

This is probably one of Paxson's better trades (up there with the Curry deal, IMO). 

Larry Hughes will fit in Chicago better than Cleveland for sure. He's a big guard, an ok defender, can play PG alongside Gordon. He's also a creator/slasher on some level. Not an all-star anymore, but considering his contract is "bad" he's a WAY better fit than Wallace.

Getting Gooden is a great move. This guy isn't anything special, but he seems like a Bulls type of guy. Him and Hinrich should have instant chemistry which is a plus.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*

FYI -- I would probably look at Larry Hughes as "Gordon insurance" in case he doesn't sign the extension. I think we'll stay firm with our $50M offer, which is fair. If he doesn't take it, we work something out to trade him. Hinrich/Thabo/Hughes might do ok without him.

Deng -- I expect him to re-sign as he already admitted he regretted passing up his extension.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



yodurk said:


> Deng -- I expect him to re-sign as he already admitted he regretted passing up his extension.


He has? Where'd he say that?


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



liekomgj4ck said:


> He has? Where'd he say that?


reinsdorf said 1 of the 2 guys regrets having rejected one of the contract offers and gordon said it wasnt him


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



F.A.B said:


> reinsdorf said 1 of the 2 guys regrets having rejected one of the contract offers and gordon said it wasnt him


Hm interesting, I never heard that. I believe you guys, but I still wish I had a link. I'd love to keep Deng. (Gordon also but that's another thread- haha)


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



liekomgj4ck said:


> Hm interesting, I never heard that. I believe you guys, but I still wish I had a link. I'd love to keep Deng. (Gordon also but that's another thread- haha)


I remember reading something similar...


I think Deng has been a centerpiece of our rebuilding plans, and nothing that happened today has changed that, in my mind. 

I'm just so glad that I don't have to watch Ben Wallace hold on to the basketball for 7-10 seconds, do the dream shake, and throw up a shot like a slow-witted third grader.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



F.A.B said:


> reinsdorf said 1 of the 2 guys regrets having rejected one of the contract offers and gordon said it wasnt him





Dornado said:


> I remember reading something similar...
> 
> 
> I think Deng has been a centerpiece of our rebuilding plans, and nothing that happened today has changed that, in my mind.
> ...


A ****ING MEN!


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## Salvaged Ship (Jul 10, 2002)

Doesn't Gooden and Hughes wear headbands? Seems like all Cleveland players do.

They better pass all thier headbands over to Wallace, cause I doubt they will be allowed here....


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## Philomath (Jan 3, 2003)

I thought the trade was a win on first evaluation even in its earlier reported (incorrect) forms, and then we got two more players out of it in Duhon (who didn't go to Seattle after all) and Shannon Brown. 

If Hughes is anything like his old self (and he has been hinting at it lately) then this obviously becomes a huge win, and I think Gordon is gone. Hughes at his best can score in the same league with Gordon, and is worlds better on the defensive end, with the legitimate SG height I believe Pax has been craving (see: Sefolosha, Thabo).

I also think we are a pretty deep team. Assuming our starting five is Hinrich, Hughes, Deng, Gooden and Noah, that makes our second five Duhon, Gordon, Nocioni, Tyrus and Gray. Our recent starting lineups haven't been much better than that second unit. Both units are relatively young, but with some young veterans too. Sefolosha is actually the 11th man in that case, though he better not be in actual minutes played after his recent progress. Then, the new 12th and 13th men are both young first round picks with real potential to contribute one day. We may now be in a position to consolidate again, and maybe even take a chance on a star who might have worn out his welcome for elsewhere for whatever reason.

Our height is improved over last year, both in the frontcourt and the backcourt, and we have good defenders at every spot except one of the big men. We also sent out three old players and got four young ones back. Ben Wallace and Joe Smith were not going to be contributors on any future Bulls contender, and while both the old guys deserve to be on a winner right now, Hughes and Gooden have a much brighter future if you look out a couple years. 

My hope is that if Hughes and Thabo shine, we can sign and trade Gordon and perhaps Duhon. This roster is going to look much different in 6 months than it does now, and it doesn't fit together quite right yet, but I do think we are in better shape now than we were 12 hours ago. Worst case, if nothing else, it might help shake the apparent malaise among the team and its fans, evident in the first page of posts in this thread. No more webby phone, new players, new coach, new era.


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2008)

will the new guys already play tonight?


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## Case (Dec 17, 2007)

Philomath said:


> I thought the trade was a win on first evaluation even in its earlier reported (incorrect) forms, and then we got two more players out of it in Duhon (who didn't go to Seattle after all) and Shannon Brown.
> 
> If Hughes is anything like his old self (and he has been hinting at it lately) then this obviously becomes a huge win, and I think Gordon is gone. Hughes at his best can score in the same league with Gordon, and is worlds better on the defensive end, with the legitimate SG height I believe Pax has been craving (see: Sefolosha, Thabo).
> 
> ...


Nice post, especially the bolded lines. This team is moving forward now.

They should play the gong sound one more time at the UC, but this time it'll mean:
"Ding, dong. The witch is dead. Get out of bed. Big Ben is traded..."
:yay:


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

So I was wondering. It's kind of a silly question. But do you think this trade pretty much proves to us that in fact was Ben Wallace was a cancer in the locker?


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## Case (Dec 17, 2007)

liekomgj4ck said:


> So I was wondering. It's kind of a silly question. But do you think this trade pretty much proves to us that in fact was Ben Wallace was a cancer in the locker?


I don't think it proves he was a cancer. We'd need players coming out and saying he was, which they'll never do. (Unless it's Duhon).

It proves he was severely underperforming, though.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

Case said:


> I don't think it proves he was a cancer. We'd need players coming out and saying he was, which they'll never do. (Unless it's Duhon).
> 
> It proves he was severely underperforming, though.


Hm interesting. Well I think it's fair to say that he at least had a really bad attitude.


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## Case (Dec 17, 2007)

liekomgj4ck said:


> Hm interesting. Well I think it's fair to say that he at least had a really bad attitude.


Oh, I definitely think he was a cancer. I just think there's an unspoken code in the NBA that players don't publicly talk sh*t about each other - so we'll never hear the truth.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

Case said:


> Oh, I definitely think he was a cancer. I just think there's an unspoken code in the NBA that players don't publicly talk sh*t about each other - so we'll never hear the truth.


I'd like to think Ben Wallace was a cancer. You usually just don't trade someone because they are underperforming. Ben Wallace will always be underperforming with that huge contract. We still could of gotten a use for him. If he was a cancer though, which I think he was, yes he definitely needed to go.


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## limufujuan (Oct 20, 2004)

Will newcomes play tonight?


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

limufujuan said:


> Will newcomes play tonight?


No.

They have to take physicals before they play.


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## flojoe (Dec 27, 2007)

narek said:


> No.
> 
> They have to take physicals before they play.


they can take the physicals this morning and then play in the afternoon


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## Philomath (Jan 3, 2003)

liekomgj4ck said:


> So I was wondering. It's kind of a silly question. But do you think this trade pretty much proves to us that in fact was Ben Wallace was a cancer in the locker?


Yeah, we may never know, but, we did get some leaked statements about Chandler after the fact that gave at least a hint as to what was going on behind the scenes that got him traded, so we may have a better sense of it later than we do right now. But my guess is that Ben tried to be a clubhouse leader, and was accepted as one due to his stature, age, paycheck and rings. But he was never overly happy here, missed his headband (for a while), didn't like losing, didn't like getting older and being unable to chase the younguns the way he used to, didn't like Skiles, didn't like the way he was talked about by the fans and media, and didn't like being viewed as a massive mistake by everyone else and most of all himself. I'm guessing he was a grumbler and moody, but, being a professional and being a leader, I doubt he ever actually openly mutinied or lead the young players astray. I think he just brought a dark cloud with him, mostly because of the enormous signing that really didn't work out for anybody, and it was time to get rid of that dark cloud (and I don't mean his afro). 

It has to be hard to have fallen so far for him - he was a champion in a place he liked, and as of yesterday all he had was cash. It's like a morality tale - don't take the money! - but chances are he would be underperforming for Detroit or someone else too. It's hard to tell when someone is about to start showing some age, when someone's performance is a product of being comfortable in a system and in a certain place, and when they might start being an old dog that might have some trouble learning new tricks. Seems that all of those happened a bit. It will be interesting to see if he does better for Cleveland. Even if he does, I seriously doubt it will be because he was consciously dogging it here. It just plain didn't work out, and as a win-now, declining veteran, I'm glad he's going to have a superstar to bodyguard now. (Although LeBron might just as easily be his bodyguard. That guy is huge.)


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Breaking news:Big Ben to cavs?*



liekomgj4ck said:


> Hm interesting, I never heard that. I believe you guys, but I still wish I had a link. I'd love to keep Deng. (Gordon also but that's another thread- haha)


Yeah, it wasn't from Deng directly. It came from Reinsdorf. Wasn't too long ago -- can't remember if it was Tribune or Sun Times. He didn't say Deng's name directly, but it was pretty obvious.


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## limufujuan (Oct 20, 2004)

narek said:


> No.
> 
> They have to take physicals before they play.


Is that offically? Or normally they wont play the day after the trade for taking physicals?


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

limufujuan said:


> Is that offically? Or normally they wont play the day after the trade for taking physicals?


Pax said they weren't going to be available immediately in his press conference.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

The question is, why stop now? Let's Jayhawk up the rest of our team.

Kirk Hinrich/Jacque Vaughn
Paul Pierce
Julian Wright
Drew Gooden/Raef LaFrentz
Nick Collison/Scot Pollard

Ha. Actually, never mind. Maybe if we draft Brandon Rush...


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

King Joseus said:


> The question is, why stop now? Let's Jayhawk up the rest of our team.
> 
> Kirk Hinrich/Jacque Vaughn
> Paul Pierce
> ...


How about we throw a little twist in there?

Kirk Hinrich
Paul Pierce
Julian Wright
Michael Beasley
Drew Gooden

I like that starting five a lot.


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## WestHighHawk (Jun 28, 2003)

King Joseus said:


> The question is, why stop now? Let's Jayhawk up the rest of our team.
> 
> Kirk Hinrich/Jacque Vaughn
> Paul Pierce
> ...


Dang, KJ, you read my mind, almost :biggrin:

I was kind of hoping we'd get Collison, too, this time around and reunite the Three Amigos (Nick, Drew & Kirk), as they were called at KU.

Beasley is an absolute beast, even if he plays for a rival team! But needs to curb his attitude just a tad, at least in the college game. Don't know how that would translate to the NBA...probably fit right in :eek8:

Forgot to add that I would absolutely love to see B. Rush in a Bulls uniform!


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

I do admire the job John Paxson did in turning this team from a perennial loser into a team that was forecasted to win the Eastern Conference, but we still face a major problem. The lack of one (or two) All-Star players. And by that, I don't mean Kobe Bryant or LeBron James. I mean two or three guys that would be legitimate All-Star players (forget the occasional Jamaal Magloire sighting)

Take a look at this...
*All-Stars considered from 2005-2008 (which I believe is an appropriate time frame)

*Eastern Conference*
1.Boston Celtics(Ray Allen/Paul Pierce/Kevin Garnett)
2.Detroit Pistons(Chauncey Billups/Richard Hamilton/Rasheed Wallace)
3.Orlando Magic(Rashard Lewis/Dwight Howard)
4.Toronto Raptors(Chris Bosh)
5.Cleveland Cavaliers(LeBron James/Ben Wallace*/Zyndrunas Ilgauskas)
6.Washington Wizards(Gilbert Arenas/Caron Butler/Antawn Jamison)
7.New Jersey Nets(Vince Carter)
8.Philadelphia 76ers(None)

9.Atlanta Hawks(Joe Johnson)
10.Chicago Bulls(None)
11.Indiana Pacers(Jermaine O'Neal)
12.Milwaukee Bucks(Michael Redd)
13.Charlotte Bobcats(None)
14.New York Knicks(None)
15.Miami Heat(Dwayne Wade/Shawn Marion)

*Western Conference*
1.New Orleans Hornets(Chris Paul/Peja Stojakavic/David West)
2.Los Angeles Lakers(Kobe Bryant/Pau Gasol)
3.Phoenix Suns(Steve Nash/Amare Stoudemire/Shaq)
4.Utah Jazz(Deron Williams**/Carlos Boozer/Andrei Kirilenko/Mehmet Okur)
5.San Antonio Spurs(Tony Parker/Manu Ginobilli/Tim Duncan)
6.Dallas Mavericks(Jason Kidd/Josh Howard/Dirk Nowitski)
7.Houston Rockets(Tracy McGrady/Yao)
8.Denver Nuggets(Allen Iverson/Carmelo Anthony)

9.Golden State Warriors(None)
10.Portland Trail Blazers(Brandon Roy)
11.Sacramento Kings(None)
12.Los Angeles Clippers(Sam Cassell***/Elton Brand)
13.Seattle Sonics(None)
14.Memphis Grizzlies(None)
15.Minnesota Timberwolves(None)

*Obviously Wallace is a shadow of his former self unless he simply decided to not put in any effort here which would instantly make him my 2nd most reviled NBA player(behind Patrick Ewing) for not only being on the Pistons, but sabatoging the Bulls, and then making another division rival a championship contender

**I've included Deron Williams because he probably should be an All-Star, but unfortunately they can't have one more guy make the team

***I've included Sam Cassell despite the fact that Sam I Am is done.

Looking at the players, you have four types of players...

ALL-TIME GREATS
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan

FRANCHISE PLAYERS
Kevin Garnett
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul
Dirk Nowitski
Tracy McGrady
Allen Iverson
Steve Nash
Dwayne Wade

ANNUAL ALL-STARS
Ray Allen
Paul Pierce
Chauncey Billups
Chris Bosh
Gilbert Arenas
Vince Carter
Pau Gasol
Amare Stoudemire
Deron Williams
Manu Ginobilli
Yao
Carmelo Anthony
Brandon Roy
Elton Brand

BORDERLINE ALL-STARS
Richard Hamilton
Rasheed Wallace
Rashard Lewis
Zyndrunas Ilgauskas
Caron Butler
Antawn Jamison
Joe Johnson
Jermaine O'Neal
Michael Redd
Shawn Marion
Peja
David West
Shaq
Carlos Boozer
Andrei Kirilenko
Mehmet Okur
Tony Parker
Jason Kidd
Josh Howard

Looking at it more closely, among playoff teams, you have a couple types of player combinations and teams

*FINALS CONTENDERS*
1.All-Time Great + Any combo
EXAMPLES: Cleveland, Los Angeles, San Antonio

2.Franchise Player + 2 Annual/Borderline All-Stars
EXAMPLES: Boston, Dallas, New Orleans, Phoenix

*PERENNIAL PLAYOFF TEAMS THAT ARE ALWAYS ONE GUY AWAY*
1.Franchise Players + 1 Annual/Borderline All-Star
EXAMPLES: Orlando, Denver, Houston

2.1 Annual All-Star + 2 Borderline All-Stars
EXAMPLES: Washington, Utah

*PRETENDERS*
1.1 Annual All-Star
EXAMPLES: Toronto, New Jersey, Portland

*NON-PLAYOFF TEAMS*
1.1 Borderline All-Star or none at all
EXAMPLES: Hmmmm, all the teams that won't make the playoffs.

I can dig up historical examples of teams that fit this team profiling that I think we've all known about, but didn't really go into the specifics, but there is one team that really played a level above where they were supposed to be. Detroit. They turned a team with no All-Time great or Franchise Player into a perennial title contender using basically 4 borderline All-Star talents. 

These Pistons teams are somewhat of an abberation. If you can name another team that contended for the Finals over a five-year span without an all-time great or franchise player, then please do. 

Unfortunately, John Paxson thought this was the way of the future and predicated his drafting/trading strategy on building around a core of three or four guys that are borderline All-Star talents but play strictly within a system and essentially focus on three elements of the game to outplay more talented opponents...

1.Defense
2.Hustle
3.Chemistry

Problem is, Billups, Ben Wallace, Sheed, and Rip are/were borderline all-stars. The Bulls core group (Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Nocioni) are all a level below borderline all-stars (although I do believe that Deng and Gordon have potential to be in that last category). So instead of being a non-playoff team we used the three elements of basketball above to outwork, outdefend, and outthink more talented opponents and become a pretender/perennial playoff team. 

So we need to either have our guys develop into All-Star players or rediscover that combination of elements to outwork more talented opponents.

EDIT: Before this recent Houston surge and after today when I first posited this theory, I think the best way of proceeding would be go after the one "franchise player" that was potentially available (McGrady) and either Marion or Kirilenko. For example,

Phoenix took Shaq for Marion/Banks. What happened if we had offered Wallace/Thomas for Marion/Banks. Do you think Phoenix would have taken that? I do, but I could be wrong. Wallace is cheaper and they'd get a back another possible rotation guy with Thomas in the deal while unloading the same package.

If Houston had not won something crazy like 21 of their last 25 and sat near .500 and 5 games back of the playoffs in the West, would Houston have jumped at something like Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Joe Smith, #1 Pick in 2008 for Tracy McGrady. That's not a bad package at all. I would've included Deng instead of Gordon if Houston was so inclined, I'd do that too although I'd prefer Gordon. 

PG-Duhon
SG-McGrady
SF-Deng
PF-Marion
C-Noah

BENCH: Banks/Sefolosha/Nocioni/Gray

That's a finals contender right?


----------



## BigMan (Mar 18, 2003)

My apologies for taking this thread off-topic, but I take GREAT EXCEPTION to KG not making your all-time great list T.Shock 

:biggrin:


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

BigMan said:


> My apologies for taking this thread off-topic, but I take GREAT EXCEPTION to KG not making your all-time great list T.Shock
> 
> :biggrin:


I really battled with putting KG into that category and when all is said and done he may very well fit into that category, but in my mind he's below Duncan, Karl Malone, and other power forwards that fit into that category. But he's probably an MVP-caliber season away from being put into that list.


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