# Top DOG??



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Oak touched on this,and i hope it doesnt become an issue...

After one game,you can see that JC has what it takes to shine in NYC..I havent heard him interviewed yet,but the guy has that something extra...

He could easily become the fans favorite,get major advertising endorsements and be the Knicks best player...Can Marbury handle that??Can he be the number 2 guy,in his hometown???


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

The problem with Marbury and JC is they are both stats padders. I could see Marbury sharing with a KG now, but this upstart kid? You think he's gonna tolerate lower stats than him at the same position(s)?

Don't you see Marbury wanting to be Crawfords big brother? And if that echos Shaq/Kobe to you like it does to me... ouch...

Marbury's access to the HOF is his 20ppg average. There are tons opf guys in the with 8 apg, and several with like an 18-19 ppg 8 apg average, but only him and Oscar have to 20/8. 

If Marbury is gonna be hellbent on being top dog stat guy we are in for a lot of chucking duels. (you know, those ill timed three pointers fans wont tolerate giving up.)

ANyway, they said Clyde and Pear couldn't co-exist and they did, so time will tell. But these guys are no Clyde and Pearl...


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

are they thomas and dumars???

and if anything JC appears to be Zeke...


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Right, Zeke was the higher energy guy. But Zeke was also fearless on penetration, more like Marbury - Crawfords rap is he avoids contact like the plague.

And of course Dumars was a high percentage shooter. Not sure if either of these guys are that.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Marbury's access to the HOF is thru winning. If he can make the Knicks contenders, he will get in. Who cares if he puts up 20-8 every year and the Knicks go no further than the first round every year. 

It's time to win. F' stats.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

we may sukkk this year,but i love JC


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

i think crawford can be a more dominant scorer then marbury is cause of his height. he has one of the sickest crossovers in the league, can hit the J, and he can get up for a dunk.

i wouldnt be surprised to see Crawford putting up 20PPG if houston is injured. but i dont see how marburys numbers would go down. Houston averaged 19 a game last year, and marbury played better with Houston then he did without him. Having houston helped his game alot. no way crawford can take away from him. didnt you see the first few minutes? marbury and crawford both played well together, even though crawford scored more.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Marbury = Isiah
Houston = Dumars
Crawford = Vinny


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## Fordy74 (May 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Marbury = Isiah
> Houston = Dumars
> Crawford = Vinny


Crawford is 6-5 and skinny, the microwave was short and a bit pudgy. They are very dissimilair, But I guess I get what you're getting at... Truth, that is an interesting thought. I dont think Marbury will mind. I think he has matured alot, and he seems ready to win no matter if he is the man or not. He seems to really like playing with Crawford, and he will make plenty of big plays to have the crowd behind him as well as Crawford hving the crowd support him at the same time. I dont think it will ever get to be a who is the man issue like Shaq and Kob-me


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> i think crawford can be a more dominant scorer then marbury is cause of his height. he has one of the sickest crossovers in the league, can hit the J, and he can get up for a dunk.
> 
> i wouldnt be surprised to see Crawford putting up 20PPG if houston is injured. but i dont see how marburys numbers would go down. Houston averaged 19 a game last year, and marbury played better with Houston then he did without him. Having houston helped his game alot. no way crawford can take away from him. didnt you see the first few minutes? marbury and crawford both played well together, even though crawford scored more.


Penny, I actually didn't see the opening minutes or the last quarter, I only saw the second and third, both of which the Knicks lost. So admittedly that tarnishes my opinion. And hopefully none of us put too much expectation on pre-season play anyway.

But... Marbury and Houston only played 20 something games together, and it was the worst of Houston physically. But the bigger difference is... Houston doesn't cut into Marbury's game like Crawford can. You already stated you think Craws height gives him an advantage, but what's gonna happen if his play making ability exceeds Marbury's and he ends up playing more PG and getting more points AND assists than him? You really don't think it's _possible_ for Crawford to go to 18/7 and steph to 17/6 if they are sharing the rock equally in an uptempo offense? And you don't think Marbury, at twice JC's salary, would mind?

It's true that if anybody can help Steph get his mind around this it's Isiah. He shared the backcourt with Joe. There was a point, while Isiah was still a very productive player, that one could feel the tide turning, where the Piston's changed from Isiah's club to Dumars'. But Isiah already had his rings and legend in place.

Oh, and Vinnie Johnson was 6th man. If Crawford = Vinnie, no way Marbury wants to share the limelight with no damn 6th man.

Eh, it's just a hypothetical conversation for fun, but it is something to keep an eye on. So long as it doesn't turn into a chuckfest it should be all good.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Oh, and Vinnie Johnson was 6th man. If Crawford = Vinnie, no way Marbury wants to share the limelight with no damn 6th man.


A healthy Houston would start.



> You really don't think it's possible for Crawford to go to 18/7 and steph to 17/6 if they are sharing the rock equally in an uptempo offense? And you don't think Marbury, at twice JC's salary, would mind?


What's the last backcourt to have more than 2 players each get 5+ assists?


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> A healthy Houston would start.


Right. Didn't you say JC = Vinnie? Vinnie was 6th man.

That said, I can't rule out a healthy Houston, but I sure don't count on it.




> What's the last backcourt to have more than 2 players each get 5+ assists?


Crawford and Hinrich last year. Why do you ask?

It's besides the point, the numbers were just meant to be relative. The point is, how will Marbury handle it if he's second fiddle in the backcourt?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

I meant over 5 assists, was in rush. Lots of teams have 2 guys with 5, but few have teams with 2 guys having more than 5.

03-04 Bulls
Hinrich: 6.8
Crawford: 5.1

03-04 Hawks
Terry: 5.4
Sura: 5.3

96-97 Bulls
Pippen: 5.7
Kukoc: 4.5
Jordan: 4.3

94-95 Bulls
Jordan: 5.3
Pippen: 5.2
Kukoc: 4.6

92-93 Bulls
Pippen: 6.3
Jordan: 5.5
Armstrong: 4.0

*91-92 Bulls
Pippen: 7.0
Jordan: 6.1
Armstrong: 3.2*

03-04 Lakers
Payton: 5.5
Kobe: 5.1

*95-96 Lakers
Magic: 6.9
Van Exel: 6.9*

03-04 Sonics
Barry: 5.8
Allen: 4.8
Daniels: 4.2

02-03 Sonics
Allen: 5.9
Barry: 5.1

01-02 Sonics
Payton: 9.0
Barry: 5.3

94-95 Knicks
Harper: 5.7
Starks: 5.1

92-93 Knicks
Anthony: 5.7
Rivers: 5.3
Starks: 5.1

90-91 Knicks
Jackson: 6.3
Cheeks: 5.7

80-81 Knicks
Michael Ray Richardson: 7.9
Ray Williams: 5.5

03-04 Kings
Bibby: 5.4
Divac: 5.3
Webber: 4.6
Miller: 4.3
Christie: 4.2

03-04 Wolves
Cassell: 7.3
Garnett: 5.0


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

So the numbers seem to indicate that there's some sort of cap on 5, as it's only broken in extreme situations (Van Exel was an 8 apg guy before Magic showed up for half a season). I guess the question is, how many assists can a starting backcourt generate? There were a few teams I didn't check that may have done it, like the Sixers (Iverson/Snow) but again, I'm in rush.

Has Crawford averaged 6 assists before? NO. So why would he average it with a 9 apg PG? And if Marbury were traded, would this signifcantly change? No, only marginally. Look at the relationship between Payton/Barry in Seattle. 

Further, there is no power struggle. Crawford is not a better player than Marbury. Crawford scored 19 points in a preseason game and people are going nuts. He averaged 17 last year on a bad team. What else would you expect, especially with Houston out? But until Crawford takes the PG spot, he will always be second fiddle. And he doesn't have the skills to take the spot from Marbury. He certainly doesn't defend at the 1 better than Marbury. 

Crawford isn't going to cut into Marbury's assists. Marbury is a drive and dish PG who likes to dominate the ball. This is his 9th season in the league, and you can't teach old dogs new tricks. If anything Crawford will be helping Marbury get easier scores (in the event that he gets the ball), I'm not so sure about the other way around. 7/6 indicates that they'll share the load. That's not Marbury's style. 8/5 or even 9/5 is just much more likely. 9/4 if Houston comes back healthy.

Just remember that Marbury has averaged less than 8 apg only twice, in his rookie year at 19 years old (7.8) and in 00-01 (7.6, when he also happened to score his career high 23.9 ppg). His assist totals aren't going anywhere, unless he decides to hog like he did in NJ (which would only be a couple more shots than what he takes in NY)


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Good research. Again my numbers where just to be relative. But I see your point.

I'd say you are at least 80% likely to be right. However, Lenny does say he's looking for a lot of running, and I just don't like Marbury's running game. I don't know Crawfords yet, if it's good he could get a lot of assists in bunches if he becomes the pushing PG. I think the offense will still be structured through and around Marbury, but I think Jamal could do well in the flow of the offense with less time with the ball.

The difference between this team and most of the others you note is that this one will have two legit combo guars, most teams have one at best. The style this team most resembles is Isiah's Pistons, but the difference being that Isiah was a good up-tempo PG, while Dumars was more the down-tempo helper guard. So my question has been, could Marbury handle that role reversal.

I guess the best way to ask the question is, how do you guys think Marbury would handle it if Jamal becomes the fan favorite, and there becomes a _sense_ the fans prefer Jamal do the brunt of the ball handling? Could that happen? I guess Jamal would have to turn into some kind of stud for it to.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Part of the reason..*

Marbury has always averaged so many assists is because he dominates the ball and when a pass is made it usually comes from him. Maybe a more useful stat would be team assists with and without marbury. His style is very conducive to stat stuffing but not very conducive to ball movement...at least up until now. One last thing...Marbury is NOT a very good defender. Most people do consider JC to be an above average defensive player.


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## Keith Closs (May 13, 2003)

if marburys ego is still gonna get in the way of winning then were in trouble..

STats in the nba mean little when youre losing.. if marbury is more obsessed with keeping that 20 pt 8 ast average hes a moron and i hope thast not the case..

Besides i dont beleive u can win with youre main guy being 6 ft shoot first pg..

not saying i know crawfrods gonna be that player but in a ideal situation marbury type player is the sidekick...


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

It's a tough call. If Marbury weren't from NY, then I could see the fans favoring Crawford if he broke out. But since Marbury's contract is bigger (and since this is likely the only place Marbury can play without *****ing too much) Crawford would have the better trade value. Steve Francis held out when he was drafted by Vancouver. Hell, even Kenny Anderson held out when he was traded to Toronto. There is no doubt in my mind that if the Knicks even thought about trading Marbury for VC, Toronto would have no interest for that reason.

Even though VC wants to go to NY, I think getting Jalen Rose (who seems like he'd want to play in NY) and another guy, like Donyell Marshall or Chris Bosh would be a more realistic expectation.


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## Keith Closs (May 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> It's a tough call. If Marbury weren't from NY, then I could see the fans favoring Crawford if he broke out. But since Marbury's contract is bigger (and since this is likely the only place Marbury can play without *****ing too much) Crawford would have the better trade value. Steve Francis held out when he was drafted by Vancouver. Hell, even Kenny Anderson held out when he was traded to Toronto. There is no doubt in my mind that if the Knicks even thought about trading Marbury for VC, Toronto would have no interest for that reason.
> 
> Even though VC wants to go to NY, I think getting Jalen Rose (who seems like he'd want to play in NY) and another guy, like Donyell Marshall or Chris Bosh would be a more realistic expectation.


i dotn want rose or marshall there both tim thomas level players we dont need any more sf logjams..

Bosh is probably mroe untradeable then carter hes young and a big man length wise anyway u dont trade those players..

Raptors would trade carter if they could get an equal player in return box office wise but only a iverson or kobe would fit that role and carter isnt as good as either of those players..


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Chris Bosh = untouchable
jalen rose = garbage


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Keith Closs</b>!
> 
> 
> i dotn want rose or marshall there both tim thomas level players we dont need any more sf logjams..
> ...


You're right, Bosh is probably more untradable than Carter is for those reasons above. I think Philly would love a AI for VC swop, however I don't think Toronto would be too happy with that idea.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

There's no way crawford becomes THE fan favorite over Marbury, unless he starts scoring 25ppg and 5ast, while Marbury puts up 18 and 7. And even then it would be impossible. Marbury is the hometown guy, and he's gonna play with that fire because he's representing New York.

I think Marbury would be more flexible than ever due to the fact that he's wearing a New York jersey. Its possible that both can co-exist.

Even if Allan Houston is healthy, Wilkens might look to scale back his minutes and keep him healthy for a playoff push. Houston may still start but there's no reason he should have to play 35mins+ now that Crawford can shoulder the load.

Its hard for many to envision how Marbury and Crawford can co-xist since both need the ball, but this is why teams have coaches, to make players fit into a certain system.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

After todays game i saw a different marbury....i think hes matured and is really ready to lead..

As for JC,he has already won me over...He may have the best xover in the league,and will soon be the darling of the NY media and fans


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> After todays game i saw a different marbury....i think hes matured and is really ready to lead..
> 
> As for JC,he has already won me over...He may have the best xover in the league,and will soon be the darling of the NY media and fans


They're exhibition games.

Parker was 4-5. Manu was 2-3. Nesterovic was 6-8. Duncan was 7-9. Brent Barry was 2-10. 

It's a good thing the Knicks got Crawford instead of Barry. Wait a minute...


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tragedy</b>!
> There's no way crawford becomes THE fan favorite over Marbury, unless he starts scoring 25ppg and 5ast, while Marbury puts up 18 and 7. And even then it would be impossible. Marbury is the hometown guy, and he's gonna play with that fire because he's representing New York.


I dunno, what I see on other boards is that fans like youth, speed and highlights. If Marbury isn't careful Ariza will be the new franchise guy soon enough.

(kidding, mostly, but it's a fickle crowd out there... But you're right, Marbury has a built in advantage, and he'll be loved for bringing credibility back in a hurry. He's also looking pretty good so far :yes


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> They're exhibition games.


of course they are..but starbury seems content on penetrating,kicking it out and letting JC shoot....his ego seems to be in check


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