# Hansbrough: Top 20 Greatest College Players



## TM

Assuming they win this evening, how is this guy not one of the Top 20 greatest *college* players of all time? I might even be inclined to put him in the Top 15.


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## HB

On the collegiate level only thing he hasn't won is the championship which might be rectified tonight. He's a legend.


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## Geaux Tigers

One of the greatest college players I've had the pleasure of watching. I wish him the best of luck in his NBA career. His college legacy is solidified.


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## rocketeer

best case in the nba is carl landry.


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## BlueBaron

TM said:


> Assuming they win this evening, how is this guy not one of the Top 20 greatest *college* players of all time? I might even be inclined to put him in the Top 15.




I'm inclined to agree, but I find it hard to believe that HB didn't start this thread!


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## HB

rocketeer said:


> best case in the nba is carl landry.


This is about his college career and Landry and Hansbrough should not even be mentioned in the same breath as college players


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## TM

i was debating with some friends of mine. i was just wondering what you all thought.


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## rocketeer

HB said:


> This is about his college career and Landry and Hansbrough should not even be mentioned in the same breath as college players


i know. i'm not sure why i thought this thread was the best place to post it last night.

clearly hansbrough was a great college player. not sure what else there is to say other than that.


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## Diable

It's obvious that Hansbrough is magnified because of the dilution of talent in the college game.Aside from that even as an underclassman he was older and more developed than most of his contemporaries.For example he's about five or six months younger than Chris Paul...Who has close to 6000 points and 3000 assists at the NBA level.He's a year younger than Lebron who never saw a campus,a couple years younger than Carmelo...There must be seventy players in the nba who are younger than him.Ten years ago most of those guys would have spent at least one more year in college.The top level players who could have been compared to the all time greats in college just don't stick around.


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## TM

hypothetical... reality: hansbrough did stick around. and as a college basketball fan, props to him.


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## Diable

Hansbrough stuck around because he wasn't a good nba prospect.He wouldn't have been a great college player if every decent big man in the country wasn't getting paid to play ball.


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## HB

You know this because you know whats going on in his head. I mean why'd Duncan stick around four years? Because he wasn't a good enough NBA prospect. How about Horford and Noah?

Some folks just arent as enamored as we are with the NBA. Some people arent wowed by the millions.

Note: Hansbrough could have gone to the NBA straight from highschool, and his stock was pretty high in his freshman and sophomore seasons.


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## Mr. Hobbes

Don't know about the high school, but he was projected as a late lotto pick last year. Critics said he wasn't going to change his draft position that much, and he knew it. Anything less than a championship, and this year would've been considered pointless. He's going to be known as the guy who stuck around just to win, and he did it.


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## Nimreitz

HB said:


> You know this because you know whats going on in his head. I mean why'd Duncan stick around four years? Because he wasn't a good enough NBA prospect. How about Horford and Noah?
> 
> Some folks just arent as enamored as we are with the NBA. Some people arent wowed by the millions.
> 
> Note: Hansbrough could have gone to the NBA straight from highschool, and his stock was pretty high in his freshman and sophomore seasons.


Horford and Noah did not stick around 4 years.

I don't think Tyler is a top 20 college player, but his lack of talent is always going to obscure my view of him. He's on some list, but I think I could probably name 20 better college players.

EDIT: Okay, with minimal research, I think these guys are all better than Tyler

Christian Laettner, Lew Alcindor, Bill Walton, David Thompson, Ralph Sampson, Oscar Robertson, Patrick Ewing, Larry Bird, Austin Carr, Bill Bradley, Bill Russell, Pistol Pete, Jerry Lucas, George Mikan, Elvin Hayes, Elgin Baylor, and Wilt Chamberlain were all better. That's 15 guys, and I'm probably missing a few. Then I think you get a much bigger field of which Hansbrough is a member:

Tim Duncan, Tyler Hansbrough, Shane Battier, Jay Williams, Danny Manning, Michael Jordan, David Robinson, Jerry West, Chris Jackson, etc etc. So is he top 20? Maybe, but I don't think so. I'd rather have Shane Battier, Tim Duncan, Manning, Robinson, and West.


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## lakeshows

It's soooooooooooo much harder to judge college basketball careers than it is say to judge college football careers. You can actually use cumulative stats and talk about career achievements in college football because people are required to stay 3 years and often even the best players stick around 4 years.

College basketball, however, is different. Not until recently did you even have to spend any time in college basketball. The best players don't stay 4 years. That's a fact, to even argue against that is stupid. Even freaking Magic Johnson in 1980 didn't stay 4 years, neither did Jordan, and that was 20-25 years ago. Now a days everybody's 1 and done, and it's been that way since the mid-90's (from Garnett one). 

For these reasons I would not put him in the top 15 college players of all-time list. You cannot say that just because he piled up stats that he's a better player. At least in college football that argument can have legs, in college basketball it doesn't.

It's just too easy to name players I'd put ahead of Hansborough: Jordan, Ewing, the whole Michigan fab-five, Danny Manning, GHill, CBrewer, JNoah, Bill Walton, Abdul-Jabbar, etc. I could probably go on and on and on, but I don't really want to. 

He did have a great collge career, but by no means is he top 15 or even top 20. He might start entering the conversation around the top 100, and that's a compliment because almost nobody believes he'll be in a NBA top 100 list.


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## TM

it absolutely is about numbers and what they achieved. this is who'd you want on a team if you were starting a team.

Name for me 20 guys who were 4x first team All-Americans, won a national championship, were 1 or 2x POY award winners, were All conference 4x, hit as many big baskets for his team, and had as high a winning percentage as this guy.

don't give me a list of athletic guys who had great basketball careers. because those guys we take into account their NBA careers.

Top 20 Greatest College Players - career-wise.

Tyler Hansbrough is any easy pick.


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## lakeshows

TM said:


> it absolutely is about numbers and what they achieved. this is who'd you want on a team if you were starting a team.
> 
> Name for me 20 guys who were 4x first team All-Americans, won a national championship, were 1 or 2x POY award winners, were All conference 4x, hit as many big baskets for his team, and had as high a winning percentage as this guy.
> 
> don't give me a list of athletic guys who had great basketball careers. because those guys we take into account their NBA careers.
> 
> Top 20 Greatest College Players - career-wise.
> 
> Tyler Hansbrough is any easy pick.


Christian Laettner, Lew Alcindor, Bill Walton, David Thompson, Ralph Sampson, Oscar Robertson, Patrick Ewing, Larry Bird, Austin Carr, Bill Bradley, Bill Russell, Pistol Pete, Jerry Lucas, George Mikan, Elvin Hayes, Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain, Tim Duncan, Shane Battier, Jay Williams, Danny Manning, Michael Jordan, David Robinson, Jerry West, Chris Jackson, Bobby Hurley, Corey Brewer, Joakim Noah, etc, etc, etc,. All of these people had better college careers EASY.

All conference, and All american teams too don't mean much. The national championship is nice and so is NPOY. But I'd even take guys like Noah and Brewer over Hansborough for their college careers. They both won two titles (more than hansborough) and each had an MOP (something Hansborough doesn't have). Yes Hansborough won a lot of games, but NC was and is loaded with first round talent and most people would agree that he's not even the best player on his team. How does that in any way lead to top 15/20 player?


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## TM

I'm sorry. You lost me when you listed all those names, half of which couldn't hold a candle to TH's accomplishments and were in school 1-2 years less than TH and then said something ridiculous like...



> All of these people had better college careers EASY.


All time ACC scorer and he's not as good as some of those guys? Right.


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## lakeshows

TM said:


> I'm sorry. You lost me when you listed all those names, half of which couldn't hold a candle to TH's accomplishments and were in school 1-2 years less than TH and then said something ridiculous like...
> 
> 
> 
> All time ACC scorer and he's not as good as some of those guys? Right.


Isn't JJ Redick up there too? Yeah. Game. Set. Match.


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## nutmeged3

lakeshows said:


> Isn't JJ Redick up there too? Yeah. Game. Set. Match.


Haha no he's not...?



lakeshows said:


> Christian Laettner, Lew Alcindor, Bill Walton, David Thompson, Ralph Sampson, Oscar Robertson, Patrick Ewing, Larry Bird, Austin Carr, Bill Bradley, Bill Russell, Pistol Pete, Jerry Lucas, George Mikan, Elvin Hayes, Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain, Tim Duncan, Shane Battier, Jay Williams, Danny Manning, Michael Jordan, David Robinson, Jerry West, Chris Jackson, Bobby Hurley, Corey Brewer, Joakim Noah, etc, etc, etc,.


JJ's nowhere to be found


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## Diable

Johnny Dawkins was a far better player in college than Hansbrough.Grant Hill was a better player plain and simple.Honestly I just don't respect Hansbrough's numbers because of all the totally bogus fouls he drew(and did not draw)A lot of guys could score big numbers when the other team's getting Swoffordized every single time they get their faces too close to hansbrough's elbows.


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## lakeshows

nutmeged3 said:


> Haha no he's not...?
> 
> 
> 
> JJ's nowhere to be found



I meant up there on the ACC all-time scoring list which TM listed as an accomplishment. Of course I don't consider JJ Redick an all-time great so he wasn't one of the players I listed.


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## TM

nutmeged3 said:


> Haha no he's not...?
> 
> 
> 
> JJ's nowhere to be found


read the rest of the thread before making stupid comments.


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## Geaux Tigers

Diable said:


> Johnny Dawkins was a far better player in college than Hansbrough.Grant Hill was a better player plain and simple.Honestly I just don't respect Hansbrough's numbers because of all the totally bogus fouls he drew(and did not draw)A lot of guys could score big numbers when the other team's getting Swoffordized every single time they get their faces too close to hansbrough's elbows.


You can't blame him for that...


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## HB

40% of his scoring comes from the Ft line, the other 60 is from hard work and skill. You also dont shoot 80% from the line if you dont put in the work.


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## bball2223

lakeshows said:


> Christian Laettner, Lew Alcindor, Bill Walton, David Thompson, Ralph Sampson, Oscar Robertson, Patrick Ewing, Larry Bird, Austin Carr, Bill Bradley, Bill Russell, Pistol Pete, Jerry Lucas, George Mikan, Elvin Hayes, Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain, Tim Duncan, Shane Battier, Jay Williams, Danny Manning, Michael Jordan, David Robinson, Jerry West, Chris Jackson, Bobby Hurley, Corey Brewer, Joakim Noah, etc, etc, etc,. All of these people had better college careers EASY.



Half those guys your basing off of NBA accomplishments, if we are strictly talking the college game it's hard to name 25 more accomplished players than Tyler Hansbrough. 


Here's the guys you listed that weren't more accomplished college players: Austin Carr, George Mikan, Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Corey Brewer, Joakim Noah, Michael Jordan, and Chris Jackson. 


Carr was a great player at Notre Dame, and when all is said and done be better on the NBA Level but he isn't more accomplished than TH on the collegiate level. Mikan and Duncan were both outstanding NBA players but not more accomplished collegiate players. Robinson played at Navy and again your basing this off his hall of fame NBA career. He was great in college but not more accomplished than TH. Chris Jackson? Great college player but not more accomplished than Hansbrough. The Florida guys? In terms of team accomplishments? Yes. Individually and as a whole body of work? No way in hell (and stop trying to diminish TH's accomplishments when both were surrounded by NBA players Green, Richards, Horford, Speights, etc.). 


I'm sure the Michael Jordan one sticks out like a sore thumb. He won a title as a freshman (hit the game winner) but he was a role player. then he starred for two years and never made it back to the final 4. Hansbrough is UNC's, and the ACC's all-time leading scorer, was a star from day one, and made two appearances in the final 4 (including winning a title as a featured player). On the college level in terms of accomplishments TH > MJ. 



Look you can hate Hansbrough all you want, and you can take this as me being a homer. But 20 years from now we are going to be comparing accomplishments not evaluations of who was a better player, or what they did in the NBA. As a UNC fan I can agree he got a ton of calls and he may have been overhyped by the media but the guy was still a freaking good player. He is the ACC's all-time leading scorer and was an all-american 4 years in a row. You don't see that too often nowadays. It's a shame he is a throwback type player but the media and the refs have made him the most hated player in a long time on the college level.



We all have different criteria to measure out this issue it seems. But from my perspective in terms of accomplishments you can't name me 20 more accomplished players at the collegiate level than this kid. 






lakeshows said:


> Yes Hansborough won a lot of games, but NC was and is loaded with first round talent




And Florida wasn't? That Florida team that went back to back had 3 first round picks in '07 (Horford, Noah, and Brewer all 3 lottery or close to it if i'm not mistaken) and one in '08 (Speights). Lawson, Hansbrough, and maybe Ellington are the only first rounders I see for UNC this year. Green isn't going in the 1st round (although I guess you can't rule it out with this years weak crop) and Ed Davis may find himself a slot if he decides to leave. I mean you can try all you want but setting up double standards isn't going to win you arguments.


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## Nimreitz

Bball, I don't know what you're talking about. Austin Carr averaged 34.5 points per game in his three years at Notre Dame; why only 3 years? Because freshmen could not play back then. If your entire argument about some guys not being as good as TH because they only played 3 years then you're going to get into very logically inconsistent territory. I listed 20 better players and the only two you dispute are Carr (who destroys TH statistically) and Duncan (NPOY, 3 time Defensive POY, and 3 time ACC POY) who is also obviously more talented. I don't understand how you can dispute those guys. Duncan won THREE DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR AWARDS, Hansbrough won ZERO. That's half of the game, and Tyler sucks defensively.

And you are ****ing insane if you think I'm judging George Mikan only on his pro career. They changed the rules because of him, he was a 3 time All American, won the NIT, and two time NPOY!!

So again, I listed 20 players that are better than Hansbrough on the collegiate level, and you came back disputing only 3 guys, all of who were more talented and had similar accomplishments. The guy isn't top 20 all time, he just isn't. And we're talking about a guy playing in the most watered down NCAA in history too, which I haven't even factored in.


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## bball2223

Where did I say anything about the 3 years making Carr any less of an accomplished player? 


Your misreading my post (and acting like I attacked something you posted) which isn't the case. My argument is based on pure accomplishments, not who is the better player based on evaluation. If that's your argument than fine your probably right. I still fail to see how all guys mentioned by lakeshow and you I guess (since your reading comprehension is non existant) are more accomplished than TH. TM said it best:




> Name for me 20 guys who were 4x first team All-Americans, won a national championship, were 1 or 2x POY award winners, were All conference 4x, hit as many big baskets for his team, and had as high a winning percentage as this guy.



Not to mention he won a national title, and made two final fours. Duncan, Mikan, and Carr? 0 titles, and 1 final four (Carr made one at ND I believe). Again in terms of both individual and team accomplishments there hasn't been 25 more accomplished players in NCAA history than Hansbrough. My argument is he is a top 25 college player ever based on accomplishments both individually and team wise.


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## Nimreitz

bball2223 said:


> Where did I say anything about the 3 years making Carr any less of an accomplished player?
> 
> 
> Your misreading my post (and acting like I attacked something you posted) which isn't the case. My argument is based on pure accomplishments, not who is the better player based on evaluation. If that's your argument than fine your probably right. I still fail to see how all guys mentioned by lakeshow and you I guess (since your reading comprehension is non existant) are more accomplished than TH. TM said it best:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not to mention he won a national title, and made two final fours. Duncan, Mikan, and Carr? 0 titles, and 1 final four (Carr made one at ND I believe). Again in terms of both individual and team accomplishments there hasn't been 25 more accomplished players in NCAA history than Hansbrough. My argument is he is a top 25 college player ever based on accomplishments both individually and team wise.


lakeshow took my list essentially verbatim, that's why I say it's mine. And it's not fair to just pick Hansbrough's awards and ignore awards won by other players that Hansbrough doesn't have. Mikan won an NIT title (do I really need to enter into the old NIT vs. NCAA debate?), was an All American every year he played, and had the rules of basketball changed because of him. Duncan was a 3 time National Defensive Player of the Year in addition to an All American at least 3 years. Conference player of the year, blah blah blah... Notre Dame wasn't in a conference until like 1995.

And even if you don't give me those guys, what about Battier? What about Jay Williams? They were more accomplished in terms of winning, were All Americans at least 3 years each, and Battier, like Duncan, was National Defensive POY 3 years!


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## TM

Neither Shane, nor Jason were 4x first team all-americans

more accomplished in terms of winning? how do you figure that?


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## rocketeer

TM said:


> Neither Shane, nor Jason were 4x first team all-americans
> 
> more accomplished in terms of winning? how do you figure that?


so only 4x first team all americans are allowed to be in the discussion? it's not possible for a player to only be a 3x first team all american and be more accomplished than hansbrough?


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## bball2223

Being the ACC's all-time leading scorer obviously carries no weight. TH played in the same amount of final fours as Battier, and won the same amount of titles. I mean 4X all-american isn't his only claim as being more accomplished.


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## rocketeer

bball2223 said:


> Being the ACC's all-time leading scorer obviously carries no weight. TH played in the same amount of final fours as Battier, and won the same amount of titles. I mean 4X all-american isn't his only claim as being more accomplished.


being the acc's all time leading scorer is great, but it's also something that happened because he stayed all 4 years. if jay williams played one more year, he's right there with hansbrough in total points.

and why do you only care about the aspects in which hansbrough excelled? defensive player of the year doesn't matter since hansbrough never won it?


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## TM

rocketeer said:


> so only 4x first team all americans are allowed to be in the discussion? it's not possible for a player to only be a 3x first team all american and be more accomplished than hansbrough?


Will you people please stop taking single quotes and skewing them out of context. That was a direct response to Jason Williams and Shane Battier. That had nothing to do with players who were required to sit out a season as freshmen.



rocketeer said:


> being the acc's all time leading scorer is great, but it's also something that happened because he stayed all 4 years. if jay williams played one more year, he's right there with hansbrough in total points.


But he didn't, therefore I'd put TH's career above Williams'.

I should have said the word "legacy" at the start of this.

Some of you bozo's actually think we'd take TH over guys like Carr, Battier, Duncan if we were selecting pick-up teams? You must be out of your minds.


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## bball2223

Where did I say defense never mattered? Battier and Duncan were both terrific college defenders. But Battier isn't the ACC's all-time leading scorer, and Duncan never won a national title. Your grasping for straws here. Neither of the three have perfect resumes.


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## bball2223

TM said:


> Some of you bozo's actually think we'd take TH over guys like Carr, Battier, Duncan if we were selecting pick-up teams? You must be out of your minds.


Exactly. TH has just as impressive as a resume as almost any college player in quite a long time. Sure he isn't the individual talent a Carr, Duncan, MJ, or Battier is, but this isn't who is the most talented player.


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## Nimreitz

bball2223 said:


> Where did I say defense never mattered? Battier and Duncan were both terrific college defenders. But Battier isn't the ACC's all-time leading scorer, and Duncan never won a national title. Your grasping for straws here. Neither of the three have perfect resumes.


But that's a strawman. Battier didn't score like Hansbrough and Duncan never won a title, but they are two of the greatest defenders in college basketball history which Hansbrough is definitely not. You're ignoring half the game. You give huge weight to accomplishments that TH has, but don't give equal weight to accomplishments that TH does not have.


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## rocketeer

TM said:


> Will you people please stop taking single quotes and skewing them out of context. That was a direct response to Jason Williams and Shane Battier. That had nothing to do with players who were required to sit out a season as freshmen.


no, i won't. your post was a direct response to something and my post was a direct response to yours. i never commented on anything about players having to sit out their freshman year. you said that neither williams no battier were 4x all americans. i simply asked whether that was suddenly a requirement to be in the discussion.



> But he didn't, therefore I'd put TH's career above Williams'.
> 
> I should have said the word "legacy" at the start of this.
> 
> Some of you bozo's actually think we'd take TH over guys like Carr, Battier, Duncan if we were selecting pick-up teams? You must be out of your minds.


i don't understand what you and bball are trying to prove here. hansbrough was a great college player. there is no denying that. who cares exactly how high he was on the list? he's not top 10 all time. does it really matter all that much whether he's the 16th best or 25th best or 30th best college player of all time? at that point it all depends on which criteria matters most to whatever person is making the judgment.


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## bball2223

Nimreitz said:


> But that's a strawman. Battier didn't score like Hansbrough and Duncan never won a title, but they are two of the greatest defenders in college basketball history which Hansbrough is definitely not. You're ignoring half the game. You give huge weight to accomplishments that TH has, but don't give equal weight to accomplishments that TH does not have.


Because i'm making an argument for TH. I'm not blind to the fact that Battier was one of the best players this decade and Duncan is going to be a hall of famer, nor am I blind to the fact both were better defenders. Every argument in this case is going to have flaws. TH isn't the defender that Battier/Duncan was. Duncan wasn't the winner (on the college level) that Battier or Hansbrough was. TH is the al-time leading scorer in the ACC which Duncan/Battier are not. They all are very accomplished college athletes but not one of them has a complete resume.


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## Nimreitz

But that's also because who was around them. Hansbrough won because he was surrounded by blue chippers his entire career, same for Battier. Duncan never had help, the best he had was like Loren Woods as a freshman, and he still would have gone to the Final Four if he didn't get sick in 1996.


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## TM

rocketeer said:


> does it really matter all that much whether he's the 16th best or 25th best or 30th best college player of all time? at that point it all depends on which criteria matters most to whatever person is making the judgment.


Then why did you come in this thread and waste everyone's time? If you didn't care about the topic, you didn't have to start commenting on it.


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## TM

Nimreitz said:


> But that's also because who was around them. Hansbrough won because he was surrounded by blue chippers his entire career, same for Battier. Duncan never had help, the best he had was like Loren Woods as a freshman, and he still would have gone to the Final Four if he didn't get sick in 1996.


And Alcindor, Walton, etc didn't either? So where are they on this list?

I personally don't care if you rank a guy 1 or 3, but take guys by groups - top 20-25, next 25, etc... My group: TH in the top 20.


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## Nimreitz

I think I've already stated 20 guys I would rank ahead of Hansbrough, but in compiling that list I suppose I can concede that he's top 30 based on production at the college level.

I just can't possibly put him in the same tier as guys like Laettner, Walton, Pistol Pete, and the rest of that group of 15 I listed.


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## TM

Based on how much a guy dominated his peers during a career (things that are rewarded with All-American Awards, POY awards, and national championships)... I respect your decision, but he's top 20


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## Nimreitz

TM said:


> Based on how much a guy dominated his peers during a career (things that are rewarded with All-American Awards, POY awards, and national championships)... I respect your decision, but he's top 20


Also awarded with defensive player of the year awards. And P.S. TH only has 1 NPOY award. That's not elite at all, there are tons of guys with 1 NPOY. Durant has one and he only played 1 year.


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## TM

Nimreitz said:


> Durant has one and he only played 1 year.


congrats to durant on being a 4x All-American and national champ too

whole body of work... not my problem if you didn't stay 4 years to have a better collegiate resume. not my problem either if you were old and only allowed to play 3 years, 2 of which you got 1st team all-american awards (or whatever the case). doesn't mean you weren't better than some unathletic, big white guy. means his 4 year career speaks louder than most of yours'.


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## Sir Patchwork

Top 15 college career is probably a better description. As far as peak level he just doesn't compare, I mean he was the 2nd or 3rd best player on his own team his senior year. The thing the rubs people the wrong way about his career is that he benefits from better players moving on to the next level. It's like averaging 40 on a JV team and setting JV records while other great players his age have moved on to the level they're more suited for. I don't think TH is more suited for the NBA, but it's just hard to say he is a better college player than Chris Paul or even Andrew Bogut or Blake Griffin. For one year, those guys were every bit as good if not clearly better than TH in any year. This doesn't take away from TH's college career, but I certainly wouldn't put him anywhere near a top 15 college players list. That implies something different IMO.


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## bball2223

I guess people have different criteria to judge this whole thing. I don't think anyone will argue that TH is a better basketball player than a Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, or an Andrew Bogut. But TH was a more accomplished college player than CP3, Griffin, and Bogut. Is he one of the top 20 individual talents to ever play college basketball? Hell no. But he is one of the top 20-25 most accomplished players ever on the collegiate level.


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## JuniorNoboa

Without really reading this thread, he had one of the 20 best college careers, and he top 20 level of accomplishments.

At his college peak level, he was not one of the 20 best players, but I think the top college player listing are generally based on accomplishments over a career.

As I have been mostly away for the last week, congrats to UNC, Tyler Hansbrough, and its fans on winning the NCAA title.


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## HB

Sir Patchwork said:


> Top 15 college career is probably a better description. As far as peak level he just doesn't compare, I mean he was the 2nd or 3rd best player on his own team his senior year. The thing the rubs people the wrong way about his career is that he benefits from better players moving on to the next level. It's like averaging 40 on a JV team and setting JV records while other great players his age have moved on to the level they're more suited for. I don't think TH is more suited for the NBA, but it's just hard to say he is a better college player than Chris Paul or even Andrew Bogut or Blake Griffin. For one year, those guys were every bit as good if not clearly better than TH in any year. This doesn't take away from TH's college career, but I certainly wouldn't put him anywhere near a top 15 college players list. That implies something different IMO.


Paul spent two years in college no? None of those seasons could be considered rivaling TH's first two years in college. None! Same goes for Bogut, who was playing in a pretty mediocre conference. Griffin you could make an argument for. Lets not forget, Wake was pretty loaded so it wasnt as if Paul wasnt playing on a good college team.


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## JuniorNoboa

HB said:


> Paul spent two years in college no? None of those seasons could be considered rivaling TH's first two years in college. None! Same goes for Bogut, who was playing in a pretty mediocre conference. Griffin you could make an argument for. Lets not forget, Wake was pretty loaded so it wasnt as if Paul wasnt playing on a good college team.


Paul was a first team All-American as a sophomore - not to say he was above Hansbrough but they were basically at par.

Andrew Bogut was National Player of the Year as a sophomore.


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## Jonathan Watters

I'm struggling to understand what makes Christian Laettner a better college player than Tyler Hansbrough. Laettner's resume is also winning and totals-based, and every single anti-Hansbrough argument applies to him as well...I guess Hansbrough didn't make a buzzer beater to reach the final four...


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## rocketeer

Jonathan Watters said:


> I'm struggling to understand what makes Christian Laettner a better college player than Tyler Hansbrough. Laettner's resume is also winning and totals-based, and every single anti-Hansbrough argument applies to him as well...I guess Hansbrough didn't make a buzzer beater to reach the final four...


laettner is the only player ever to start in 4 final fours.


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## HB

And how many national titles did they win during that period?


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## rocketeer

two


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## TM

Jonathan Watters said:


> I guess Hansbrough didn't make a buzzer beater to reach the final four...


Or step on a dude's chest



HB said:


> And how many national titles did they win during that period?


haha. what was the point of asking that?


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## Nimreitz

HB said:


> And how many national titles did they win during that period?


Um.... Two. And he was the star his sophomore year as well when they reached the finals.



TM said:


> haha. what was the point of asking that?


Obviously to get PWNED.


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## kansasalumn

He is not in my top 20 all time as of now until I look up my list I made last year on a similiar thread


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## lakeshows

I'm willing to concede that TH is in the top 20 of college achievements list, but the thread says top 20 college players, and that he is not.

Also I don't give credit to Robert Horry Rings (ala championships you get when you aren't the best player on the team) when discussing accomplishments of best players.


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## TM

i made the thread . i specified what i meant. therefore you are wrong.


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## HB

No Nim, the point was Laetner is widely considered the best college player of all time, is Hansbrough being top 20 really that far off? Two final fours and one national title is nothing to scoff at.


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## Nimreitz

HB said:


> No Nim, the point was Laetner is widely considered the best college player of all time, is Hansbrough being top 20 really that far off? Two final fours and one national title is nothing to scoff at.


Yes, he is very far off.


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## Jonathan Watters

No, he isn't. Their accomplishments are very similar. Laettner was more successful on the team level. Hansbrough was more successful on an individual level.


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## Diable

Laettner had to beat Shaq to get to the Final Four one year...He played against comparable players in an era in which nearly all the best players stayed in school at least three years.You're not comparing apples and apples.You're talking about one guy who played against men and another who played against boys.


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## kflo

it's hard to compare a guy who stays 4 years in an era where all top talent leaves early to guys who played their college careers where everyone or most everyone stayed. add in the fact that almost noone will call th one of the top college basketball PLAYERS ever, and we're left simply assessing a resume. and that just becomes an academic exercise.


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## Najee

It is difficult to compare players across eras, but I definitely would put Tyler Hansbrough in the top 30 all time. Here was Street & Smith's top players in college basketball history, per the publication it produced in 2003:

1.) Lew Alcindor, UCLA 
2.) Bill Walton, UCLA 
3.) Oscar Robertson, Cincinnati
4.) Bill Russell, San Francisco
5.) Pete Maravich, LSU 
6.) Larry Bird, Indiana State
7.) David Thompson, N.C. State
8.) Wilt Chamberlain, Kansas 
9.) Elvin Hayes, Houston 
10.) Jerry West, West Virginia 

11.) Earvin Johnson, Michigan State 
12.) Jerry Lucas, Ohio State 
13.) Michael Jordan, North Carolina 
14.) Bill Bradley, Princeton 
15.) Patrick Ewing, Georgetown 
16.) Ralph Sampson, Virginia 
17.) Christian Laettner, Duke 
18.) Elgin Baylor, Seattle 
19.) Austin Carr, Notre Dame 
20.) George Mikan, DePaul 

21.) Cazzie Russell, Michigan
22.) Danny Manning, Kansas 
23.) Tom Gola, LaSalle 
24.) Calvin Murphy, Niagara 
25.) Phil Ford, North Carolina 
26.) Isiah Thomas, Indiana 
27.) Akeem Olajuwon, Houston
28.) Tim Duncan, Wake Forest 
29.) David Robinson, Navy 
30.) Rick Barry, Miami 

I can see Hansbrough moving past Barry on this list, but that's about it. He was a very effective player but some of the players listed above him were absolutely dominant and/or had major impacts on their programs and their eras of college basketball. Hansbrough is yet another excellent player from a prestigious basketball powerhouse, but I can't call him a transcendent player.


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## Najee

HB said:


> No Nim, the point was Laetner is widely considered the best college player of all time, is Hansbrough being top 20 really that far off? Two final fours and one national title is nothing to scoff at.


That's funny. You ask most college basketball experts, and this man is considered the best college player ever:


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## Najee

Diable said:


> Laettner had to beat Shaq to get to the Final Four one year...He played against comparable players in an era in which nearly all the best players stayed in school at least three years.You're not comparing apples and apples.You're talking about one guy who played against men and another who played against boys.


Actually, Christian Laettner's Duke team as a freshman beat Alonzo Mourning's Georgetown team in the 1989 Elite Eight (keep in mind, Duke also had national player of the year Danny Ferry on the squad). LSU never made it past the second round in Shaquille O'Neal's three years there.


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## seifer0406

I think if you add "Players that stayed the college for 4 years" as a pre-req for the thread, then Hansbrough would no doubt be in the top 20. I still see a lot of comparison between him and guys that was either more dominant or accomplished things at a faster pace.

My view on this is that theres only so much you can do in college basketball. Once you've done as much as Hansbrough, you are considered one of the best college players ever. I don't know what kind facts that can be used to determine whether a player is the 15th best player or the 13th best player. Whatever that argument is it will have to be some intangible thing that the person did rather than solid stats because their stats and accolades don't different a whole lot.


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## HB

So I am looking at Najee's list and I dont see Jamison, yet Jordan is in the top 15. Statistically Jamison did more in his 3 years. I feel like Jordan is that high moreso because of his pro career more than anything else. Hansbrough as a college player achieved more than number 23.


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## kflo

HB said:


> So I am looking at Najee's list and I dont see Jamison, yet Jordan is in the top 15. Statistically Jamison did more in his 3 years. I feel like Jordan is that high moreso because of his pro career more than anything else. Hansbrough as a college player achieved more than number 23.


jordan was 2 time 1st team all-american. he was arguably the 2nd best player in the country as a sophmore, and the best as a junior.


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## kflo

of course, being above 3 time player of the year sampson seems a bit of a stretch, although sampson is undoubtedly hurt by the tourney. jordan does have his title, even though his soph and junior teams didn't get past the elite 8.


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## HB

Check out Jamison's college stats and awards and get back to me on that. There's a reason why his jersey was retired.

Matter of fact not having Jamison as a top 20-30 college player of all time might be criminal in my books


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## kflo

HB said:


> Check out Jamison's college stats and awards and get back to me on that. There's a reason why his jersey was retired.
> 
> Matter of fact not having Jamison as a top 20-30 college player of all time might be criminal in my books


jamison was 1st team once, and 2nd team once. jordan was arguably the single best player in the nation for 2 years (sporting news player of the year as a soph).


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## HB

Jamison was widely recognized as one of the best players if not the best in the country in his sophomore and junior years (definitely the best in his junior year). Many thought the UNC team in those two years should have won the title and underachieved because of that. 

Michael Jordan won the Naismith and Wooden awards once in his 3 years. Jamison won it once in his 3 years also. Again dont act like theres some huge disparity between both. Jordan gets more acclaim A.) Because of his pro accomplishments B.) He won an NCAA title and had a clutch shot at the end, which thanks to ESPN gets repeated over and over

Statistically Jamison was the better player.


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## kflo

i didn't say there was a huge disparity. but there's a difference between being 1st team and player of the year as a soph (from one publication at least), and being 2nd team all-american. do i think pro career influences these lists? undoubtedly.


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## Najee

HB said:


> So I am looking at Najee's list and I dont see Jamison, yet Jordan is in the top 15. Statistically Jamison did more in his 3 years. I feel like Jordan is that high moreso because of his pro career more than anything else. Hansbrough as a college player achieved more than number 23.


Well, the list is Street & Smith magazine's and as a magazine that has been covering sports for 60 years I would consider Street & Smith credible.

Second, the Antawn Jamison vs. Michael Jordan comparison, IMO, does not take into consideration NBA careers. That would have to be something I would have to ask you to prove otherwise.

Third, Jordan's collegiate career is going to have to evaluated in the context of the era he played. You really can't judge players solely on raw stats but during the era in which they played.

Jordan was The Sporting News' national player of the year as a sophomore and was a consensus national player of the year as a junior -- an era that included some of the best players in the history of college basketball (Patrick Ewing, Hakeem Olajuwon, Keith Lee, Sam Perkins, Ralph Sampson, etc.). The ACC, in particular, in the early and mid-80s was arguably the strongest era of that conference's history.

Jamison was a great player at UNC (who should have been ranked higher in Street & Smith's rating, IMO), but you have to look at what he did in college basketball in his era vs. what Jordan did in his era. Having seen both players play in college, I would have to go with Jordan over Jamison.


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## Scuall

Najee said:


> Well, the list is Street & Smith magazine's and as a magazine that has been covering sports for 60 years I would consider Street & Smith credible.
> 
> *Second, the Antawn Jamison vs. Michael Jordan comparison, IMO, does not take into consideration NBA careers. That would have to be something I would have to ask you to prove otherwise.
> *
> Third, Jordan's collegiate career is going to have to evaluated in the context of the era he played. You really can't judge players solely on raw stats but during the era in which they played.
> 
> Jordan was The Sporting News' national player of the year as a sophomore and was a consensus national player of the year as a junior -- an era that included some of the best players in the history of college basketball (Patrick Ewing, Hakeem Olajuwon, Keith Lee, Sam Perkins, Ralph Sampson, etc.). The ACC, in particular, in the early and mid-80s was arguably the strongest era of that conference's history.
> 
> Jamison was a great player at UNC (who should have been ranked higher in Street & Smith's rating, IMO), but you have to look at what he did in college basketball in his era vs. what Jordan did in his era. Having seen both players play in college, I would have to go with Jordan over Jamison.


I have that issue as well, probably the best list I've ever seen. Jamison was ranked too low, the argument could be made that he was top-40. I kind of have to agree with the high inclusion of Michael Jordan has something to do with his pro success. How would you compare Jordan's college career to say, Gail Goodrich. His stats were on-par, if not better than Jordan's. He lead (or could say co-lead one year with Mike Warren) the Bruins to 2 championships and won the POY award (with Bill Bradley).


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## Najee

It seems that someone people are not paying attention to where college basketball was between, say, Michael Jordan's, Gail Goodrich's and Antawn Jamison's respective eras, Scuall. Again, Jordan gets a nod because he was the best player in college basketball as possibly a sophomore and definitely a junior in a very strong era (arguably the strongest ever). 

In fact, it's fair to say the early to mid-80s was the start of college basketball's golden era. Because of the interest in what Magic Jonhson and Larry Bird did a few years earlier, the interest in college basketball soared nationally. Jordan, Patrick Ewing, Ralph Sampson and others were the first generation of college stars, IMO, who were commonly followed on the casual fan level. These guys were prime time players at the college level, which barring the transcendant player was very rare.

You all are adhering to hard stats and apparently are not looking at the context in which Jordan played.


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## HB

How many of those guys did Jordan face? Georgetown wasnt in the ACC


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## The Truth

HB said:


> So I am looking at Najee's list and I dont see Jamison, yet Jordan is in the top 15. Statistically Jamison did more in his 3 years. I feel like Jordan is that high moreso because of his pro career more than anything else. Hansbrough as a college player achieved more than number 23.


As a Duke fan, I feared Antawn Jamison far, far more than I ever feared Hansbrough. 

TM, if you're simply asking for the top 20 players in accumulating statistics over a 4 year career, I think a decent case can be made, but I think it's a pretty meaningless designation. When I think of greatest college basketball player ever, I simply consider who was the best player while in college, regardless of the length of time that they stayed in school. 

Hansbrough was a very good rebounder and great at getting second chance points. He never developed much of a back to the basket game, and he never really developed as a serious threat from the outside. He was just fantastic at picking up garbage buckets. My biggest problem with him is that he didn't really improve much during his career.

And seriously, can we consider a guy who was consistently contained by Brian Zoubek as one of the 20 greatest college players ever?


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## The Truth

BTW, forget Laettner. Battier as a senior > Hansbrough as a senior.


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## Najee

HB said:


> How many of those guys did Jordan face? Georgetown wasnt in the ACC


Ralph Sampson was in the ACC, and last I looked he was a three-time national player of the year. So was Len Bias, Adrian Branch, Johnny Dawkins, Mark Price, John Salley and Thurl Bailey and the N.C. State crew that won the '83 title.


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## TM

The Truth said:


> And seriously, can we consider a guy who was consistently contained by Brian Zoubek as one of the 20 greatest college players ever?


that pickup games must not have been televised


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## The Truth

Hansbrough posts-up Zoubek.

Ball into Hansbrough.

Hansbrough with the ball, back to Zoubek.

Hansbrough pump fakes.

Hansbrough pump fakes again.

Hansbrough turns into Zoubek.

Getting close to three seconds.

Hansbrough throws up a wild shot and flails his arms out trying to get a call.

Zoubek blocks the shot without leaving his feet.

Hansbrough looks like an idiot.

Zoubek didn't get a ton of time against Hansbrough, but when he did, he usually made Hansbrough look like a fool when they tried to post him up. Not that Zoubek is even good defensively, but Hansbrough is just that bad with his back to the basket.


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## Full Effect

Tyler will go down as a top 5 great at UNC. As far as NCAA history there are just so many names that rank above him. Time will tell however if we can look back lets say ten years and still remember the remarkable things he did.


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## DaBruins

Why does more accomplished = best player? It helps figure out who's the best player, but its FAR from being the only criteria you look at.

Hansborough is maybe in the top 30 - I cant put him higher than that


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## Full Effect

Think of all the Great UCLA players, and the great duke players, and the great UNC players, Elgin Baylor form Seattle, Kentucky players, Larry Bird Indiana State, Michigan State players, Indiana players. So many great players that i just don't think he is on the top 20 list.


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