# Raps must go BIG with #7.



## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

NEEDS:
------
defense
rebounding
athletecism
sounds alot like <b>Chris Taft or Charlie Villanueva 
</b> he is all three of those

If they do get 7th pick and draft big that would mean passing on
<b>Jarett Jack, Felton and possibly even Deron williams?</b>... that means passing on guys is likely better than any other PG the team has had...

... and for that matter do you pass on <b>Gerald Green</b> a freakish athelete/defender who is heralded as the next T-MAC.

Conclusion
===========
Even though the Raps need to push <b>Rafer</b> to a reserve role they can likely do that or keep him honest with <b>Cook</b> and Alvin (if he plays) . Furthermore the Raps could get lucky and nab Jack with the number 16.

Can't wait on <b>Green</b> need to show bosh and the fans something in the next 2 season. Green will likely learn quick but I doubt Babs will do anything that may take 3-4 years to pan out.

If they can get one of the big 4 PG's and Taft I would package <b>Rafer + williams + Denvers next year for something and buy out <b>Murray</b> if you can not trade him.


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## alpngso (May 23, 2003)

I'd rather have Tiago Splitter than those two.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Charlie V???? At 7 ???

You have got to be kidding. If you think Babs got ripped for Hoff at 8, he would need a team of personal bodyguards just to get home at night if he pickd Charlie at 7.

The guy is soft. Boone is a better interior player at UConn. Shelden is a better big man and he is returning to Duke.

Going big is fine if Green is gone, but I would take any of these bigs over Charlie:

Bargnani, Splitter, Vazquez, Taft, Marty.

Even at 16 Charlie would be a bit of a reach. But at that point he may be worth the gamble depending what is left on the board.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

We do need big men, both for now and for the future, but I don't think it would be a good idea to go big for the sake of going big--it's not worth passing up on a better prospect.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

lucky777s said:


> Shelden is a better big man and he is returning to Duke.


Shelden won't declare? When did that happen?


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## macro6 (Jul 23, 2002)

Duke's Williams to wait year for NBA


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

speedythief said:


> We do need big men, both for now and for the future, but I don't think it would be a good idea to go big for the sake of going big--it's not worth passing up on a better prospect.


you are right Lesson learned from last year.

and for the record I would not take Charlie @ #7 - taft is nice (not a moiso) but has warts that is why I would be inclinded to think about

#7 + (the willimas for cap reasons) for a Brad Miller/Maglorie type (or whatever)


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

We Need Gren, A Guy With Super Star Skills That Can Get Fans Back In The Acc And Packed Like How It Used To Be, He In 2 Seasons Can Become Big.
He Is A Player We Could Along With Bosh Build A Good Contender Team.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

The absolute last thing I want is a "project", even if I have to sacrifice some upside. My patience with this team is wearing thin, this year's draft picks better be guys that can contribute right away. If we get a PG, I want a PG who has proven he can run a team, distribute the ball, push the ball up the floor and play tenacious defense. If we get a big man/men, and we'd better, I want guys that have played lots of minutes against serious competition, who compete hard, rebound and defend the post well. No guys who could be great players if only they worked a little harder or guys who have terrific athleticism but aren't good basketball players.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

GuelphRaptorsFan said:


> The absolute last thing I want is a "project", even if I have to sacrifice some upside. My patience with this team is wearing thin, this year's draft picks better be guys that can contribute right away.


I think that is the sentiment of alot of Raptor fans and that is why I think it is
very unlikely that they will draft
(a) a high schooler
(b) someone who has not played competatively in North America (yes that includes tiaggo, vazquez and Andriuskevicius).

It is almost a certainty that the Raps will pass on higher "upside" guys for more "sure thing" package.

That mean someone who has provent themselves in the NCAA tourny or Trading the pick.


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## MonkeyBallZJr (May 7, 2004)

charlz said:


> I think that is the sentiment of alot of Raptor fans and that is why I think it is
> very unlikely that they will draft
> (a) a high schooler
> (b) someone who has not played competatively in North America (yes that includes tiaggo, vazquez and Andriuskevicius).
> ...


What is all the hype with Tiago Splitter anyways, sure he has been doing good in Europe but theres a reason he dropped out of the previous drafts. We don't need another Brazillian that should've sticked to soccer, Babcock knows his first pick will determine whether he stays on as GM or not.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

Original ScarFace said:


> What is all the hype with Tiago Splitter anyways, sure he has been doing good in Europe but theres a reason he dropped out of the previous drafts. *We don't need another Brazillian that should've sticked to soccer*, Babcock knows his first pick will determine whether he stays on as GM or not.


Pure ignorance.

You want to be witty and amusing? You're failing.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

charlz said:


> I think that is the sentiment of alot of Raptor fans and that is why I think it is
> very unlikely that they will draft
> (a) a high schooler
> (b) someone who has not played competatively in North America (yes that includes tiaggo, vazquez and Andriuskevicius).
> ...


Au contraire my friend, I think the Raptors will not stop themselves from picking Gerald Green if he's impressive in workouts and available at #7. There's no reason to limit yourself in the draft and look at what you will and won't pick, that happened last year when the Raptors picked because of NEED. Picking an NCAA player because you expect him to contribute sooner than a high schooler or an international player is limiting yourself and a huge mistake. 

And it won't be for immediate help, Babcock said last week that they'll do what's best for the future and not just for the time that Mitchell and he are with the organization. Which, I'm hesitant to believe because he's done a mediocre job thus far, but you have to take his word for it.

If that's true, he won't be crossing out HS'ers and international players.

Another reason why there's a good chance the Raptors take an international player is Babcock's upcoming trip to Europe in the next week or so to scout those leagues... I doubt he makes that trip unless there's been good feedback from the European scout(s) over the course of the season.


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## KeonBackinTO (May 26, 2003)

Charlie V would be a great pick at 16. Hes gonna be a big time player in this league. He has incredible size and skill ratio. 

But the Raps cant limit themselves to picking a big man at #7 they need to take the best player available. It's a rebuilding process and the Raps need to get the best players now. If the best player is a PF then take a PF it doesn't matter. But it will likely be a gaurd.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

You won't get rebounding with Charlie V or Taft. In fact, you won't get much of anything with Taft. A great athlete who can't/won't play much ball.

I would rather take Green and pick up the best rebounder and PG with the next 2 picks. Jack or Simien will be available at 16. Shelden W may change his mind yet. 

Jared Holman or someone to come in and knock heads will be available at 37. 

I would love to get Gadzuric with our MLE.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

You won't get rebounding with Charlie V or Taft. In fact, you won't get much of anything with Taft. A great athlete who can't/won't play much ball.

I would rather take Green and pick up the best rebounder and PG with the next 2 picks. Jack or Simien will be available at 16. Shelden W may change his mind yet. 

Jared Holman or someone to come in and knock heads will be available at 37 or even 57. 

I would love to get Gadzuric with our MLE.


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## MonkeyBallZJr (May 7, 2004)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> Pure ignorance.
> 
> You want to be witty and amusing? You're failing.


Relax man, I know your high on Tiago Splitter but seriously are you gonna say with absolute truth that you have seen this guy play and not just downloaded highlights of his clips? Do you think we should take Splitter with our first pick? Right now he is projected at number 6 on draft city, has he shown himself to be a lottery pick because international player's stock often tend to drop in the workouts, he has already dropped out of the draft twice what makes you think he won't do it again?


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

Original ScarFace said:


> Relax man, I know your high on Tiago Splitter but seriously are you gonna say with absolute truth that you have seen this guy play and not just downloaded highlights of his clips? Do you think we should take Splitter with our first pick? Right now he is projected at number 6 on draft city, has he shown himself to be a lottery pick because international player's stock often tend to drop in the workouts, he has already dropped out of the draft twice what makes you think he won't do it again?


I wouldn't say I'm high on Splitter, I've just seen him in a handful of games (full games, not clips) and have seen very impressive things from him. It's not from 1:00 clips where he dunks the ball, but full games where I've seen him play various roles and he's shown his upside and what he can bring now.

I would take Splitter at #7 if Green was gone, I really have no qualms with him going that high to the Raptors, especially if he can play SF or C. 

As for him "dropping out of drafts", he's still just 20 years old. Last I checked the best European players in the NBA were mostly drafted around that age, even older.

*Dirk:* 20 years old
*Peja:* 19 years old
*Gasol:* 21 years old
*Z:* 21 years old

It's not a matter of him dropping out because he was or is bad, it was a matter of him not being ready. I can't think of a Euro coming out too early as I type, but Toronto's Omar Cook came out too soon and look what happened to him. Had Splitter come out at 18 or 19, he would've likely been a later pick than he will be as a 20 year old and would have either stayed home, playing with his club team or sat on the NBA bench.


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## Numbed One (Jun 8, 2003)

I hear people saying that they don't want to wait, that our draft picks have to contribute next year, that we have to make the playoffs next year... why?!

This franchise has been in that kind of mind set for 5+ years and it has gotten us nowhere.

It is time to be patient and build things right. Being patient mean sitting through a couple more bad seasons possibly. But if the effort to build the team properly is there, I am willing to do that.

There is a difference between a losing season like this last one where the team was sending mixed messages about their intents (rebuild or playoffs?) and a losing season where the management makes it fully clear that they are in a total rebuilding stage.

We have to stop being so impatient and reactionary and start looking at reality.

If Green is availiable, we take him, no second thoughts. I would also take a PG like Jack over a big man, no second thoughts. We've already got an allstar scoring big man, we just need a rebounding tough guy to play beside him. Not someone you're going to want to take with a lottery pick (sorry Hoffa).


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

To follow up on the previous poster's thoughts, the whole _"WIN NOW, CONTRIBUTE NOW"_ mentality is the reason the Raptors drafted Rafael Araujo.

So, it's kind of hypocritical to say Araujo was a bad pick, but the Raptors must draft players that will contribute now, and in order to do so they must draft NCAA players.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Yeah, the win now stuff is garbage. We just have to draft the best talent available with our pick, whether it is a high school, international or seasoned college player. 

We probably will lose a bunch of fans in this process, because a lot of Toronto fans are unbelieveably impatient. Hopefully MLSE doesn't panic and fire Babcock or some nonsense because of this. He stated it would be a three year plan and I hope they realize that he is right, you can't rebuild in a year.

This team won't be competitive until after the 2006-2007 offseason anyways, IMO.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

Numbed One said:


> I hear people saying that they don't want to wait, that our draft picks have to contribute next year, that we have to make the playoffs next year... why?!
> 
> This franchise has been in that kind of mind set for 5+ years and it has gotten us nowhere.


A very interesting point - will the Raps try to win in 2 yrs or 3-4 - I think the answer there is Bosh. If this team is not moving in the right direction his option year it is unlikely that the texas boy would want to hang around - and who could blame him? 

That is why I think they will go for a more immediate contributor or trade - but I could be wrong. Look how quickly Phoenix rebuilded after they unload Stephan - LESS THE 2 SEAONS.

Raps have been out of the PO's 3 already I think they want to show the fans a round or 2 of hoops/resign bosh and then go from there - I am not sure they want to totally gut everything with 5 strait trips to the lottery.

Remember the Raps are run by MLSE and those teachers fund people want there playoff dividends - unfortunately they are very "bottom line".


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Williams staying in school is good for me. I get to enjoy a national championship next year. But I'll never know if Rob would have passed him over or taken him.

As for Taft or CV, if we take either at 7 I will go berserk as I recorded in my "on the record thread" We should be getting some good perimeter help now 1 thru 3. I realy don't want Vicious or Vazquez. The only real big I would accept is Bogut. The rest have perimeter skills.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

blowuptheraptors said:


> Williams staying in school is good for me. I get to enjoy a national championship next year. But I'll never know if Rob would have passed him over or taken him.


I am sure your prediction was a little tongue in cheek, although I assume Duke will be consensus preseason #1 next year (Ucon adn Kentucky will get some love as well). Here is my top 10 for next year.

1. Duke
2. Oklahoma
3. UConn
4. Kentucky
5. Gonzaga
6. Villanova
7. LSU

Althouhg Duke is #1 on my list, those 6 teams are all VERY close to Duke. I expect one of those 7 will win the national title next year (or at least be #1 entering the tournmanet)

8. Boston College
9. Florida
10. UCLA


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

I wouldn't go about drafting for needs with our first pick.

Splitter, Andriuskevicius, or Aleksandrov (even though he plays at the 3 more) are the only big men I would consider taking at #7, but only if guys like Green, or Williams were already picked up.

If this franchise is truly rebuilding and moving forward, Babcock will be smart enough to realise he should take a 'best talent available' approach.


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

There isn't one player in this draft that can come in and change things immediately in Raptorland. We have a BAD team with MANY flaws, plain and simple. We aren't one or two pieces away from anything except being back in the lottery, therefore it is in the Raps best interest to draft the players they think will be the best out of the one's available to them...not for this year but 3, 4, 5 years from now which is when we could possibly have a competitive team.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

> It is time to be patient and build things right. Being patient mean sitting through a couple more bad seasons possibly. But if the effort to build the team properly is there, I am willing to do that.


If you
a) are willing to sit through yet another two years of the Raptors being bad
and 
b) have faith that the Raptors are capable of discerning between a player who isn't a good basketball player right now but will become a good or even great one and a player who isn't a good basketball player right now and never will be

then I'd agree with your assessment. I fail both tests, so I want a player with a proven track record. Its no guarrantee of getting a good player, but it substantially increases the odds.

I should probably clarify, though, that I'm on board with the Raptors plan to rebuild. I just don't want to gamble with our draft picks.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

The safest pick is a great athlete with some demonstrable skills, and a great attitude/work ethic. These guys almost never bust.

There are tons of NCAA seniors who put up great numbers in college and bust in the NBA.

The premier HS players rarely bust. 
Tier One - KG, Kobe, T-Mac, LBJ, JO
Tier Two - Kwame, Tyson, Curry... DMiles
Busts - Dejaun Wagner, Bender

So maybe GG will be the first HS superstar wing to bust.

To quote Sir Charles, "but I doubt it."

If he is still available 7th and we pass on him...
:rocket:


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

D'oh! 

This past season!

Dwight Howard - already a star.
Josh Smith - right behind.
Telfair, J.R. - looking very good.
Shaun Liv - health is only question mark.
Swift - too early to tell...


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

JuniorNoboa said:


> I am sure your prediction was a little tongue in cheek, although I assume Duke will be consensus preseason #1 next year (Ucon adn Kentucky will get some love as well). Here is my top 10 for next year.
> 
> 1. Duke
> 2. Oklahoma
> ...



Partially, but they only lost Ewing while gaining 3 great looking recruits. Our lack of bigs won't be a problem next year. Depth should be better all around too.


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

Here are Splitter's actual measurements from last year in Chicago

Tiago Splitter 6' 10.25" 6' 11.75" 233 7' 2" 9' 1.5"

So he's technically big enough. Hopefully the draft sites aren't exaggerating about him battling in the paint, like they did with Darko. ("Darko has a mean streak a mile wide" Lol. Whatever)


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## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

Going back to the main idea of the post ... 'go big with the #7 pick' ...
I think its a good idea. However, I would add 'go big with the #7 pick, UNLESS, you use your 2nd first rounder to trade for a center'. 

I mean, if we can send a nice prospect, the #16pick and an expiring contract (eg. Lamond Murray) to the Hornets for Magloire, that would be amazing. We wouldn't need to draft a big with the #7 then. We could gamble a bit more and take Green ... or take solid points D.Williams or R.Felton. 

Passing on Green is probably a mistake. I've only had the chance to watch him in the mcdonalds game and the dunk contest. The guy has hops and a sweet stroke. What pulls me away from him is the other stats ... no rebounds, no assists, not many steals or blocks. Nevertheless, he's a heck of a talent I wouldn't be pissed if the raptors use with #7. 

If we go for a big man, please let it be Tiago Splitter. The guy is a good presence in the middle ... blocks shots and rebounds well. He would complement Bosh very well. Charlie V? Chris Taft? M.A...vicious? no thanks. 

As for the 16th pick - Danny Granger / Jaret Jack / Sean May / Channing Frye / Andray Blachte / Hakim Warrick ... would be nice pickups. Probably don't want to draft the same position as the one drafted on 7th though.


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

Splitter and Green could both be gone before we pick depending on how they do in workouts. If that happens the Raps may have to gamble on a guy like Taft, Marty or Nemanja.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Hopefully none of the lottery prospects drop out of the draft. We have a lot of options right now.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

talent cant pass on green next pick if Jack is there take him good size for defensive PG who also has good offence game.

2nd rnd go with talent first criteria then look at needs after scoring a player on those 2 agenda's then make the pick.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

djmyte said:


> Splitter and Green could both be gone before we pick depending on how they do in workouts. If that happens the Raps may have to gamble on a guy like Taft, Marty or Nemanja.


Or we could take Felton, or Jack, because the possbility of one of them being there at 16 is slim to nil.


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

vigilante said:


> Or we could take Felton, or Jack, because the possbility of one of them being there at 16 is slim to nil.


At this point in time (pre draft workouts), I don't mind Felton at #7 if other prospects like Green and Deron are gone.

With Jack, I can see him either rising as high as the 12-14 range or dropping down to the 17-22 range. He's someone I can't quite put a tab on.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Rhubarb said:


> At this point in time (pre draft workouts), I don't mind Felton at #7 if other prospects like Green and Deron are gone.
> 
> With Jack, I can see him either rising as high as the 12-14 range or dropping down to the 17-22 range. He's someone I can't quite put a tab on.


I would take Jack any day over felton.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i really don't buy that the raptors "have" to do anything at 7 (or 16 for that matter). at this point some of these players are going to see their market values skyrocket due to their respective hype machines. it doesn't mean they'll be better pros, worse pros or similar pros. from the players i've seen this year, i don't think there's as much of a gap between 1 and 16 as there normally is. to be perfectly honest, i think some of the online mocks are out in left field this year- i think they're too cemented in their draft positions for some of these players. 

for example, ray felton hasn't really moved from the 5-7 category in months, and i think there's a very good chance he could slide down considerably. jarrett jack, on the other hand, is mid- to late-first round material at the moment, and while that may ultimately prove itself accurate, i wouldn't be surprised to see jack move UP considerably- top 10? maybe. i think the range on most of these players (at least the ones i've seen) is realistically between 4 and 24 (more so than normal anyway). to say that the raptors must do _anything_ at 7 or 16 is an overreaction, imo. i think this draft is more important in terms of getting the right team player, not the right position. 

and honestly, i think someone pointed it out earlier, but the one thing the raptors have (if nothing else) is _some_ depth _everywhere_ (imo). i don't think there's a gaping hole on the court, although there isn't much quality on the court either. still, i think we are indeed one of the few lottery teams with considerable flexibility heading into the draft and given the talent pool available this year, i think we're rather fortunate in that sense.

there are so many players i'd be happy with this year (i feel like a different person in saying that) and those are just from the group that i've seen. to have names like vazquez, martynas, bargnani, splitter, nemanja, etc., among them has me pretty excited. you're not going to put a player beside deron in your mock unless he's pretty good. further, to have a man i've seen like turiaf or gilchrist sitting in the second round reinforces that excitement. the mocks may be wrong, sure (i don't think taft should be drafted as high as he's being projected, for one), but if not we'll be sure to get some players this year.

and i *never* say that. 

i mean, you can get a player like jarrett jack at 16? you gotta be kidding me... this is gonna be mighty interesting.

peace


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

ballocks said:


> i really don't buy that the raptors "have" to do anything at 7 (or 16 for that matter). at this point some of these players are going to see their market values skyrocket due to their respective hype machines. it doesn't mean they'll be better pros, worse pros or similar pros. from the players i've seen this year, i don't think there's as much of a gap between 1 and 16 as there normally is. to be perfectly honest, i think some of the online mocks are out in left field this year- ....
> 
> i mean, you can get a player like jarrett jack at 16? you gotta be kidding me... this is gonna be mighty interesting.
> 
> peace


I agree this is sure to be one of the most unpredictable drafts in years. Felton could go 6 or 20 and neither would shock me. I personally think he is way over rated.

One thing I think the Raps will look hard at is the intangables. Watching Manu play for San Antonio has been (as it usually is) very eye opening. Sure he gets his points but that is a bi-product of his attitude. He is not a great athelete but he over comes his opponents with preparation and mental superiority.

Which is why I doubt they will take players with questionable heart (Including taft)


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

What is an 18- or 19-year old supposed to be committed to, anyways? People sometimes talk about lack of commitment from these prospects, but I don't know a lot of people their age that have cemented goals and work steadfastly towards them. There are some, sure, but the majority of people I've known in that age range are more concerned with the present than with any foreseeable future.

To say that an 18-year old has questionable heart is a huge stretch unless he is skipping games, not practicing, and not attending work-outs (or playing lazy and piss poor in the preceding).

Sometimes a player plays an 'effortless' style, which can look like 'without effort', too. It's not the same.


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## rapsfan4life (Apr 10, 2004)

charlz said:


> I agree this is sure to be one of the most unpredictable drafts in years. Felton could go 6 or 20 and neither would shock me. I personally think he is way over rated.
> 
> One thing I think the Raps will look hard at is the intangables. Watching Manu play for San Antonio has been (as it usually is) very eye opening. Sure he gets his points but that is a bi-product of his attitude. He is not a great athelete but he over comes his opponents with preparation and mental superiority.
> 
> Which is why I doubt they will take players with questionable heart (Including taft)



Manu not a great athlete???? Have you watched him closely. Just check out his dunks


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

rapsfan4life said:


> Manu not a great athlete???? Have you watched him closely. Just check out his dunks


Manu's a great athlete for international standards, but in the NBA, Manu's athleticism is probably a little better than average. He's just really quick and decisive.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

rapsfan4life said:


> Manu not a great athlete???? Have you watched him closely. Just check out his dunks


All plays in the NBA are good atheltes with the exception of some big men (tractor etc...) but aside from his above average speed he has average athletacism for an nba swing man IMO. But he is one of my favorite players on the planet because he is so savvy and tough... make no mistake I love this guy.


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## Unknownone (May 14, 2005)

Raptors must take the best player available - listen to Doug Smith and Norma Wick when they relate the story of Jerry West in Memphis...

West stockpiles talent no matter what position - he then uses the talent he has on hand to leverage trades for talent at specific positions... It's worked to some degree of success so far w/ the Grizzlies and reflected kindly during his tenure in Los Angeles...


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