# Now that you've seen the Heat...



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

What should the expectations of this team be?

They're going to be without Haslem for probably 6 weeks plus now. So no Haslem, no Miller. Wade is banged up.

So the team is basically Lebron, Bosh, Zydrunas Ilgauskas and some 3 point shooters. Coached by someone of about Mike Brown's level.

55 wins and a second round exit?

You can also use this thread to apologize to Laker and Celtic fans if you thought this team was going to win 65+ games.


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## Xeneise (Jul 5, 2010)

They will get about 50-55 wins and make the Eastern Conference Finals. They'll be much better at the end of the year than they are now.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Heat did fail my expectations as I did expect them to get at least 60 wins this year. Some of that is due to injuries but I did not expect the C/PG spots to be such a major problem.

It's going to be a difficult task for them to solve those problems due to the lack of roster flexibility. I still think they'll be good enough to make it to the conference final though provided that they don't meet the Celtics before that. 

It's still early though. Miami has their injury woes but for all we know something could happen to Boston's core 4 as well. If Miami can be relatively healthy going into the playoffs anything can happen with Wade and Lebron.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

Same as before, 50% chance of making the finals. Their deficiencies mean that they can get a good enough record but they'll have problems against specific teams in the playoffs that they might not get by in a best of 7 series. They might get lucky if these teams are knocked out and still make the finals though despite the lack of interior presence.

I think a lot of problems they had were ignored by Heat fans and LeBron fans though.

The biggest one being that LeBron and Wade need the ball in their hands for optimal offensive output. One's value is always dropped if the other is handling the ball. Defensively they are great with cutting passing lanes which I expected. Bosh is softer than I thought though, I thought he'd be better. Putting up numbers similar to Gasol, he hasn't.


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## simply_amazing (Aug 23, 2009)

55-58 wins. They'll clean up against the weaker teams in a weaker conference. They'll struggle against the elite teams, which have more experience (playing together) and superior coaching: Boston, Orlando, Los Angeles. 

The chemistry of the team is all wrong (especially on offense) and their coaching is just average (at best). 

Their fans are among the worst in the league as well, and that could make a difference in a few games, especially during the regular season. 

The key to this team's success rides on getting an experienced coach and acquiring a small coterie of legitimate shooters (not just 3 point shooters). 

Right now, they have neither.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

same as before, I am completely unsurprised that Carlos Arroyo and Joel Anthony are being abused by teams that have the tools to do so and that the big 3 will have to cover for them - 55 wins, 2nd or 3rd round out in the Eastern Conference play-offs 

the only surprise to me so far has been that Bosh has been so slow to pick up on the fact that he has to play as if he is a PF and hit the boards


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

Losing Haslem hurts, but I still think Bron and Wade are enough to get you 55-56 wins. Unless they make some moves at the deadline for a PG, I think Boston beats them in 5 or 6 games.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

I thought they would win 60 games and lose to Boston with lack of defensive rebounding being their glaring weakness.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

60 wins, ECF Exit


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

55 wins, 2nd round exit.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

If they face Boston in the EC Semis, they are losing there. Orlando still blows out bad teams and could get the #1 seed in the East.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I actually think the PG problem won't be that bad once Mike Miller comes back. The center position is a major problem because Z is too slow and Anthony is too small.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

seifer0406 said:


> I actually think the PG problem won't be that bad once Mike Miller comes back. The center position is a major problem because Z is too slow and Anthony is too small.


Mike Miller can guard point guards?

I think the center problem is mostly exacerbated by the point guard problem. Both problems could be solved by a more creative and daring coach though. If the Heat played a faster pace, teams couldn't play conventional centers against them. They need to be forcing turnovers and running out of the basket. But none of the big three seem interested in running the floor hard. Bosh jogs up the court. Wade and Lebron walk it up.

The heat believe that they can get the most out of their advantages in a slower paced half court game, and they aren't being proven wrong right now because their offense is still very good despite no rebounding, little ball movement, and lots of bad long 2s.

I think Pat Riley has to coach this team. You need an experienced championship level coach to marshall these egos and problems. But right now Riley is letting Spoelstra hang himself.

The thing is the Big three don't want Riley because it will mean 6 hour practices and accountability. They like Spoelstra because they can push him around. The inmates are running the asylum out there no the floor, and predictably the results are mixed.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

My expectations? A subforum in NBA general


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Right now they're exactly what I expected, a deeply flawed team with very little chance of winning big in the playoffs. They need to be down in the d league scouting everyone with any chance of helping them where they need help. They could surprise me, but they need more than they currently have to be successful. If they had someone who could move Lebron back to the wing at least in part they'd be a great deal better.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I think he expects Wade to guard the PG spot with Miller handling the 2/3. As of now I think that PG is their biggest weakness as it's those teams that are killing them. They can't defend the 1 at all, and allowing opposing points to penetrate at will is killing them defensively.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Diable said:


> Right now they're exactly what I expected, a deeply flawed team with very little chance of winning big in the playoffs. They need to be down in the d league scouting everyone with any chance of helping them where they need help. They could surprise me, but they need more than they currently have to be successful. If they had someone who could move Lebron back to the wing at least in part they'd be a great deal better.


The problem with your analysis is that they may be a deeply-flawed team but they are in a deeply-flawed conference and that bodes well for them...they can go deep into the playoffs even as flawed as they are.

I still don't think they can get past a healthy Boston team. Note the word: healthy.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

We haven't "seen" the Heat yet. We don't know who they are because they don't yet. Let's talk about this in February. 

February is when they will definitely be who they're going to be.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Provided* they dont have any more injuries. I mean its weird they are getting all this phantom injuries out of the blue. Maybe that Cleveland witch doctor isnt so wacky after all ha!


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Healthy or not, I don't see how anyone thinks they'll get past Boston. Boston's 3rd string center and point guard would start on Miami. Their wings aren't bad either.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I didn't think that they were going to win it all at the start of the season and I'm standing by that. Their record will get better and they will have an impressive postseason but they aren't deep enough to beat the Lakers or the Celtics.


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## BeeGee (Jul 9, 2010)

They're gonna win it all this year.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

futuristxen said:


> Mike Miller can guard point guards?
> 
> I think the center problem is mostly exacerbated by the point guard problem. Both problems could be solved by a more creative and daring coach though. If the Heat played a faster pace, teams couldn't play conventional centers against them. They need to be forcing turnovers and running out of the basket. But none of the big three seem interested in running the floor hard. Bosh jogs up the court. Wade and Lebron walk it up.
> 
> ...


*even showtime got tired of Riley's act eventually that much is true but the other thing is a)you have to be in the best possible game shape to run hence his grueling workouts b) you cant just throw a switch and become a running team, it involves a change in roles and philosophy and most importantly c) Riley's old mantra still stands: "you cant break off made shots" you need to D up and hit the defensive boards*


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Riley played fast in LA because that's what Magic wanted. Riley replaced Paul Westhead in large part because Magic didn't think he ran enough....Paul Westhead of Loyola Marymount run people out of the gym fame. Riley never had anyone like Magic again and he never ran a fast paced team again.


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

I was never too scared of their Big 3, as I always thought Bosh was overrated as hell and that LeBron and Wade don't compliment each other. Bosh is relegated to being a spot up shooter since LeBron and Wade are mediocre spot up shooters. And since LeBron and Wade suck at spotting up, it gets easier to guard each of those guys 1 on 1. The PG's and C's in their rotation suck, and Mike Miller is really overrated by a lotta fans.

They'll be good for blowing out crappy teams and making tons of highlight plays, but they'll get beat easily by Boston. Chicago and Milwaukee have good shots at beating them too.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Diable said:


> Riley played fast in LA because that's what Magic wanted. Riley replaced Paul Westhead in large part because Magic didn't think he ran enough....Paul Westhead of Loyola Marymount run people out of the gym fame. Riley never had anyone like Magic again and he never ran a fast paced team again.


that's true, Riley always worked with what he had - look at what he did with the Knicks - nasty scratch and claw ball - hated it but he got as much out of that team as you could hope to

but Westhead was not running that LMU offense with the Lakers and he was ousted because none of the players liked him, Buss wanted him gone before Magic ever spoke out - all Magic did was bring the situation to a head


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

no identity, no passion, and apparently no pride considering their getting served up by the pacers and lebron and wade just keep hoisting up shots. I just dont how the teams deficiencies can be so blatantly obvious to us, yet there is no attempt for the heat to fix them or at least try covering things up. lebron almost looks disinterested out there at times, something I never expected to see. i see 57 wins and an ECF exit, depending on the matchups they could end up getting bounced out in the second round if they face the celtics there.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

it's kinda funny how so many people were saying "how could the heat NOT instantly win championships with the big 3" ... like it was a forgone conclusion.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Now that I've seen the Heat, I've come to the conclusion that this early in the season, they're not a very good team. The only impressive thing I've seen from them has been one half against the Magic at home.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Until the Heat have a coaching change they are a bad basketball team.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Until the Heat have a coaching change they are a bad basketball team.


pretty pathetic for this whole new personnel of players to come in and essentially lay down their arms only a couple weeks into the season. I agree that a coaching change is absolutely vital, but its disrespectful of the players to just give up like this.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

Ok.....maybe 55-56 wins might be too much?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I'm not sure how people think Milwaukee has a shot to do anything come playoff time. Corey Maggette, John Salmons and Drew Gooden are on this team. The Bucks are going nowhere.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Trade Wade for Varejao and Hickson.

Mike Brown is available.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Adam said:


> Trade Wade for Varejao and Hickson.
> 
> Mike Brown is available.


Should also trade bosh for Jamison and miller for Williams.

"I'm bringing my team to south beach."


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

You still haven't seen the Heat, because we've never been healthy. Right now we've got a banged up Wade, plus 2 of our top 6 out til like All-Star Break. Let's take care of the injury bug in November though, rather than May.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

-33- said:


> You still haven't seen the Heat, because we've never been healthy. Right now we've got a banged up Wade, plus 2 of our top 6 out til like All-Star Break. Let's take care of the injury bug in November though, rather than May.


damn, so the dude with an annoying flashing signature .gif putting the blame on the coach has to stack the injury card on top of the deck too? maybe instead of deflecting the blame on everyone/everything else, you should do things like call out wade for chucking his team out of the game completely tonight???


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Maybe that dude knows more about the Heat than you


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

Dre™ said:


> Maybe that dude knows more about the Heat than you


Yea I'm sure he knows much better than I how Mike Miller will look for the heat when he comes back from injury.... No reason for people to absolve the players from blame when the likes of lebron are out there puttin his coach on blast in public a couple weeks into the season.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

First rule of fandom is blame the refs. Second rule of fandom is blame the coach. Third rule is blame injuries.

It never fails every year. Last year Celtics fans went with the third rule, Cavs the second and thankfully no one the first. Kobe-Shaq years thats all we heard.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

-33- said:


> You still haven't seen the Heat, because we've never been healthy. Right now we've got a banged up Wade, plus 2 of our top 6 out til like All-Star Break. Let's take care of the injury bug in November though, rather than May.


Dan LeBetard had an orgasm on air not caring whether or not if Haslem and Miller were going to be on the team. He proposed a contest where fans can be the starting PG for a night. When they announced the big 3 with smoke and lights Haslem and Miller weren't there.

You're being disingenuous if you say you aren't surprised by this start.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

disingenuous has like 5 syllables - despite almost all the vowells in the world


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Tooeasy said:


> Yea I'm sure he knows much better than I how Mike Miller will look for the heat when he comes back from injury.... No reason for people to absolve the players from blame when the likes of lebron are out there puttin his coach on blast in public a couple weeks into the season.


By that, Dre meant that -33- knew we were getting the big 3 days before ANYBODY knew. He called it. Dude has legit sources.

I can honestly say I did not expect a start like this. At all. We were pathetic today.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

futuristxen said:


> Until the Heat have a coaching change they are a bad basketball team.


if Lebron and Wade were half the leaders they've been made out to be this is pure bs - if they are not then they are over-rated players

this is not a schemes problem, this is not a playing time problem

this is a you have no PG and you have no C issue


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

And realistically, how much blame can be put on the coach considering the players basically acted like they didnt give two ****s tonight against a clearly inferior team?? I highly doubt he asked wade and lebron to camp out at the three point like and chuck the rock like it was a damn pickup game. And if the injury excuse is gonna be thrown out, then the coach shouldn't be thrown into the fire so quickly considering he has even less resources to work with. Spoelstra obviously needs to go since the team has already given up on him, but its gonna be really sorry if another coach gets hired and the same level of complacency is exhibited by the heat.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

e-monk said:


> if Lebron and Wade were half the leaders they've been made out to be this is pure bs - if they are not then they are over-rated players
> 
> this is not a schemes problem, this is not a playing time problem
> 
> this is a you have no PG and you have no C issue


Spoo has been a problem for a while now. Some of us have wanted him gone for years. I myself thought LeBron would fix my issues with him but LeBron hasn't. If that makes him a poor leader then give him that brand, but Spoo's pace and rotations hurt this team.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

Wade County said:


> By that, Dre meant that -33- knew we were getting the big 3 days before ANYBODY knew. He called it. Dude has legit sources.
> 
> I can honestly say I did not expect a start like this. At all. We were pathetic today.


Having "sources" doesn't make an individual any more knowledgeable than a fellow nba fan who watches the exact same games. Nobody knows anything about what kind of an impact mike miller would have.... and realistically how much more could he have added than james jones has through these early games? jj wouldve been getting no burn, and although his defense is atrocious, hes playing essentially the same role miller would have been so it's foolish to blame the start by this team on a 6th man and a player who has been playing in every single game before getting injured just yesterday.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Wade County said:


> By that, Dre meant that -33- knew we were getting the big 3 days before ANYBODY knew. He called it. Dude has legit sources.
> 
> I can honestly say I did not expect a start like this. At all. We were pathetic today.


What does calling that have to do with what he posted? He also said Jerome Beasley would be a good player because he watched him in practice.


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## Seanzie (Jun 9, 2003)

Dre™ said:


> We haven't "seen" the Heat yet. We don't know who they are because they don't yet. Let's talk about this in February.
> 
> February is when they will definitely be who they're going to be.


The discussion needed to end here. Some of you are being so short-sighted.

I never thought the Heat would come flying out of the gates. I knew how soft Bosh was. I knew they soft up front overall. But once they really get into the swing of things and get healthy, I really think they'll start tearing up the league.

They don't need a true point with LeBron and Wade in there. Once Miller comes back, I think they'll forgo having a true starting PG and just let the alpha dogs handle the ball 95% of the time. Wade can guard any PG in the league. LeBron is perhaps the second-best help defender in the league. Having those two guys will mask most of their deficiencies, and Bosh will be able to contribute more and more as the season goes on. I'm not expecting Gasolian contributions, but he's clearly the third best player on that team.


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## edabomb (Feb 12, 2005)

50-55 wins + the clip below = losing to the Lakers in 6.


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## Lynx (Mar 6, 2004)

Going into the season, Miami wasn't the best team in East. I am not sure how Pat Riley would be able to fix it. They don't have a post-presence inside and in playoffs..you need post presence.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

FWIW and people seem to be forgetting, the Celtics big 3 didn't lose their first game till about January. This team is supposed to have a better big 3. This is just bad basketball period. Stop making excuses for them.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Tooeasy said:


> Having "sources" doesn't make an individual any more knowledgeable than a fellow nba fan who watches the exact same games. Nobody knows anything about what kind of an impact mike miller would have.... and realistically how much more could he have added than james jones has through these early games? jj wouldve been getting no burn, and although his defense is atrocious, hes playing essentially the same role miller would have been so it's foolish to blame the start by this team on a 6th man and a player who has been playing in every single game before getting injured just yesterday.


Except Mike Miller can actually handle the rock, rebound, and pass the ball.

Other than that - same player....


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

Wade County said:


> Except Mike Miller can actually handle the rock, rebound, and pass the ball.
> 
> Other than that - same player....


Your gonna tell me that considering the fact all james jones is asked to do is stand in the corner and shoot threes that his deficiencies handling the rock and passing the ball is really that relevant? gonna tell me that mike miller would be shooting threes at a better percentage that JJ has thus far? James jones is one dimensional as hell, but hes been doing that one thing as good as anybody could ask this year, you really think that miller would be contributing that much more considering if miller was getting burn jones would have probably been buried on the bench?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Dan LeBetard had an orgasm on air not caring whether or not if Haslem and Miller were going to be on the team. He proposed a contest where fans can be the starting PG for a night. When they announced the big 3 with smoke and lights Haslem and Miller weren't there.
> 
> You're being disingenuous if you say you aren't surprised by this start.


To be fair, that whole rant was epic and amazing and hilarious. Now even more so.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Tooeasy said:


> Your gonna tell me that considering the fact all james jones is asked to do is stand in the corner and shoot threes that his deficiencies handling the rock and passing the ball is really that relevant? gonna tell me that mike miller would be shooting threes at a better percentage that JJ has thus far? James jones is one dimensional as hell, but hes been doing that one thing as good as anybody could ask this year, you really think that miller would be contributing that much more considering if miller was getting burn jones would have probably been buried on the bench?


I think Mike Miller would hit those looks too. I also think he'd create much better ball movement and flow in our offense.

JJ started hot, but he has cooled off lately.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Tooeasy said:


> Your gonna tell me that considering the fact all james jones is asked to do is stand in the corner and shoot threes that his deficiencies handling the rock and passing the ball is really that relevant? gonna tell me that mike miller would be shooting threes at a better percentage that JJ has thus far? James jones is one dimensional as hell, but hes been doing that one thing as good as anybody could ask this year, you really think that miller would be contributing that much more considering if miller was getting burn jones would have probably been buried on the bench?


The only way Mike Miller matters is if the Heat are playing at a fast enough pace to get him about 10 shots a game. Otherwise all he'll be doing is taking shots away from an already accurate Jones.

I feel like a broken record but pace is killing this team. You slow the game down when you have a ****ty team. Not when you have three of the best offensive players in the game, two of which are all-time greats in the open court. 

The Heat need to hire Don Nelson. 

The Dampier signing is interesting. Looks like they've finally got fed up with the rebounding situation. Rebounding being the one thing Dampier does very well. We'll see if that helps. I still think a lot of their rebounding problems have to do with their bigs getting out of position because their perimeter players give up penetration too easily.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Don Nelson is done. This isn't football. There are no offensive coordinators. If they need a new offense they need a new coach.

And how many titles does Nelson have that you need to hire the master of regular season matchups when you have Pat Riley in the front office probably itching for more rings on his fingers.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Don Nelson is a no no.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

Wade County said:


> I think Mike Miller would hit those looks too. I also think he'd create much better ball movement and flow in our offense.
> 
> JJ started hot, but he has cooled off lately.


Whelp, you can think that miller would have made all those shots but theres absolutely no guarantee thats the case. hes become a hesitant shooter whereas Jones doesnt seem to have a conscience at all. Your team doesnt have any flow whatsoever based on the schemes and isolation plays... do you really think lebron and wade are gonna be the ones standing out on the perimeter watching mike miller pound the rock and try to create plays or somethin?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Tooeasy said:


> pretty pathetic for this whole new personnel of players to come in and essentially lay down their arms only a couple weeks into the season. I agree that a coaching change is absolutely vital, but its disrespectful of the players to just give up like this.


I agree with that. You can tell just from watching that Lebron doesn't respect Spoelstra. How many plays did he break today? And he's supposed to be the point guard? Not sure Bosh respects him much either but he's more subtle.

it's unfortunate, but Shaq and Kobe had this problem too. You have to have a coach that commands respect and manages these guys to get the best out of them. I'm sure Lebron is saying "wow this guy is worse than Mike Brown/I need to get this guy fired now before he costs me in the playoffs".

I was shocked. This is a team that in only what 14 games? Has already quit on it's head coach. They don't run the offense. They don't really hustle on defense. They get to do whatever they want out there, and unfortunately none of them except Wade is mature enough to coach himself.

That's the big difference between this big three and the celtics one. Those guys were mature, these guys aren't. 

They need someone who will kick their asses. Hall of Fame coaches need only apply.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm really waiting for the excuse people have when all this "Mike Miller can shoot but he's hesitant and won't" **** blows up in their face. It *reeks* of one of those things people say because someone else said it. 

And it case it happens to be true, I will give you my reason now: 

"Mike Miller isn't taking the wide open shots he's afforded because he's an idiot".


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Dre™ said:


> Don Nelson is done. This isn't football. There are no offensive coordinators. If they need a new offense they need a new coach.
> 
> And how many titles does Nelson have that you need to hire the master of regular season matchups when you have Pat Riley in the front office probably itching for more rings on his fingers.


I just want to see some ball movement, some creative lineups, and an uptempo game. I agree that Riley would be the best bet, but I was trying to think outside the box. Rick Adelman could be good too.

Pat Riley is really the only answer though. This is a team that needs 6 hour practices of just running.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Cheer up, Heat fans...they are still above .500.

Losing to the Pacers by 16 at home...epic.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

looks like i was right.. the heat aren't nearly as good as they were projected to be. and i only liked wade on that team.. not lebron (attitude) and bosh (his game sucks). maybe they can turn it around, but their offense looks pretty bad right now... and it doesn't seem like the big 3's strengths can exist at the same time. 

oh yeah, im finally right.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

Dre™ said:


> I'm really waiting for the excuse people have when all this "Mike Miller can shoot but he's hesitant and won't" **** blows up in their face. It *reeks* of one of those things people say because someone else said it.
> 
> And it case it happens to be true, I will give you my reason now:
> 
> "Mike Miller isn't taking the wide open shots he's afforded because he's an idiot".


Since theres no visual evidence because nobody gave a **** about a single wizard game last year, all I can do is go off statistical basis. The dude played starters minutes last year on a team with no real scoring options, and his role on the court is to be a scorer, yet he could only muster 11 points a game. For a reference point.. serge ibaka is scoring more night in and night out than mike miller did last season. Same thing with the year before. Mike Miller was signed by the heat and basically told this... you stand in the god damn corner and when lebron or wade drive and get doubled, theyll kick you the ball, make some jumpshots please.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Ron said:


> Cheer up, Heat fans...they are still above .500.
> 
> Losing to the Pacers by 16 at home...epic.


Ha. With the Mavs and Magic on the road coming up. They'll be below .500 by next week. Pat Riley will make his move at that point.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

We will see :raised_ey


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Tooeasy said:


> Since theres no visual evidence because nobody gave a **** about a single wizard game last year, all I can do is go off statistical basis. The dude played starters minutes last year on a team with no real scoring options, and his role on the court is to be a scorer, yet he could only muster 11 points a game. For a reference point.. serge ibaka is scoring more night in and night out than mike miller did last season. Same thing with the year before. Mike Miller was signed by the heat and basically told this... you stand in the god damn corner and when lebron or wade drive and get doubled, theyll kick you the ball, make some jumpshots please.


If Mike Miller plays like he did with the Wizards he's exactly what the Heat need. He won't shoot too much. He'll keep the ball moving. Rebound. Hit open 3s at an unreal percentage.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

see, the thing is.. i had a problem with pat firing stan van gundy because stan took the heat team all the way to the WCF and the team was close to making the finals. spoelstra, on the other hand, if he doesn't prove that he's worth his weight.. then pat should fire spoelstra and return i guess.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Its funny how Spo is the scape goat, but the chosen one and his band of merry men are supposed to be the ones with the chip on their shoulders. I guess all that mean mugging hasn't translated to wins just yet lol


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

they're all just a dysfunctional group right now. i didn't blame anything on spoelstra.. i said if he proves to be inept. apparently he doesn't have lebron's respect, which means he's incapable of handling a prima donna.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Heat look terrible against Pacers tonight. 

Season prediction: 47 to 52 wins

Bulls maybe able to knock down Heat in the playoffs.


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

HB said:


> Its funny how Spo is the scape goat, but the chosen one and his band of merry men are supposed to be the ones with the chip on their shoulders. *I guess all that mean mugging hasn't translated to wins just yet lol*


Yezzir


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Maybe Chris Bosh should bring his wife to the games and have her heckle Lebron like in Toronto. That's the only time I've seen Lebron play "mad". He plays better when he's happy and having fun.


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

Lets not write off the Heat yet. But they need a guy to spread the floor. 

They are very beatable though. 
I am predicting a 55 win season after that we shall see how the matchups turn out. I think the Magic cant beat the Heat, but Celtics can. And Bulls id say its was 60% chance of Heat 40% chance of the Bulls winning.

ATL got nothing.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

the Heat got to the line 33 times last night compared to only 13 trips for the pacers - hmmm? star system what?

oh yeah and the Pacers outrebounded the Heat by 10 boards


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

e-monk said:


> the Heat got to the line 33 times last night compared to only 13 trips for the pacers - hmmm? star system what?
> 
> oh yeah and the Pacers outrebounded the Heat by 10 boards


that free throw stat is incredible. You'd think Stern would worry about things like that instead of "emotional" demonstrations from players.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

HB said:


> FWIW and people seem to be forgetting, the Celtics big 3 didn't lose their first game till about January. This team is supposed to have a better big 3. This is just bad basketball period. Stop making excuses for them.


What? That can't be right.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

If Doc Rivers can "coach" the Boston big 3 to a championship then I dont see why Spo couldnt with Miami. 

I dont believe this "the team sucks with Spolestra as coach" BS. When Boston got Allen, and KG to go along with Pierce, Doc Rivers was known to be a coach who started 1-19 with the Magic, lead the Magic to mediocre 40 win seasons, did absolutely nothing in Boston before the big 3 arrived. 

Then you had KG and Allen arrive, some good abit washed-up role players and then a Championship. Honestly, who really was the coach for that Boston team? KG? Peirce? Doc was there mainly for moral support.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)




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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

OneBadLT123 said:


> If Doc Rivers can "coach" the Boston big 3 to a championship then I dont see why Spo couldnt with Miami.
> 
> I dont believe this "the team sucks with Spolestra as coach" BS. When Boston got Allen, and KG to go along with Pierce, Doc Rivers was known to be a coach who started 1-19 with the Magic, lead the Magic to mediocre 40 win seasons, did absolutely nothing in Boston before the big 3 arrived.
> 
> Then you had KG and Allen arrive, some good abit washed-up role players and then a Championship. Honestly, who really was the coach for that Boston team? KG? Peirce? Doc was there mainly for moral support.


More like you want to say Spo is fine because you want want as much blame as possible on the players.

Spo isn't fine. Contrary to popular belief, and probably your belief, there was a team in Miami before this season and Spo has been a problem for a while. I've disliked him since he started Diawara, since he started Richardson over Dorell, since he constantly makes excuses for mistakes he has made costing us the game in the last minute, etc.

He's a poor man's version of Mike Brown. Mike Brown by all accounts took criticism. Mike Brown accepted offensive help. I've seen Mike Brown admit in press conferences when he made a mistake that cost the team the win. Spoo makes excuses when he doesn't use the foul to give or when he has the wrong personnel on the court. He never admits when he's wrong despite starting Joel, Diawara, and Chalmers and then removing them from the rotation altogether. He's stubborn and he's bad. It's an annoying combination, but hey, he will put up some parking barriers in the locker room, pass out books, and deflect the issue onto defense and he will fool the lesser minds.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

OneBadLT123 said:


> *If Doc Rivers can "coach" the Boston big 3 to a championship then I dont see why Spo couldnt with Miami.*
> 
> I dont believe this "the team sucks with Spolestra as coach" BS. When Boston got Allen, and KG to go along with Pierce, Doc Rivers was known to be a coach who started 1-19 with the Magic, lead the Magic to mediocre 40 win seasons, did absolutely nothing in Boston before the big 3 arrived.
> 
> Then you had KG and Allen arrive, some good abit washed-up role players and then a Championship. Honestly, who really was the coach for that Boston team? KG? Peirce? Doc was there mainly for moral support.


You do realize Doc Rivers is an excellent coach, alot of people would have him ranked in the top 5. It is not even comparable to Spo, who like Adam said is like Mike Brown. 

Doc and draw up offensive plays with the best of them, can't say the same for Spo.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Tooeasy said:


> And realistically, how much blame can be put on the coach considering the players basically acted like they didnt give two ****s tonight against a clearly inferior team?? I highly doubt he asked wade and lebron to camp out at the three point like and chuck the rock like it was a damn pickup game. And if the injury excuse is gonna be thrown out, then the coach shouldn't be thrown into the fire so quickly considering he has even less resources to work with. Spoelstra obviously needs to go since the team has already given up on him, but its gonna be really sorry if another coach gets hired and the same level of complacency is exhibited by the heat.


It's the coach's job to have the players ready to play. I think its obvious at this point that the Heat players (or at least the key players) either don't like or don't respect Spoelstra, maybe both. You can be the greatest X and O coach ever, but if the players won't play for you, your team won't go anywhere.

Riley will probably oust Spoelstra and hire himself by Christmas. Not that I'd blame him. 8-6 and being raped by the Pacers, with a team of this caliber, is unacceptable. 

I still think they'll be in the Finals this year though.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

OneBadLT123 said:


> If Doc Rivers can "coach" the Boston big 3 to a championship then I dont see why Spo couldnt with Miami.


Rivers isn't a great coach, but he's always been popular with the players on his teams, and they play for him. Being a coach isn't just about X's and O's.

Not seeing any such thing going on in Miami with Spo right now.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

HB said:


> FWIW and people seem to be forgetting, the Celtics big 3 didn't lose their first game till about January. This team is supposed to have a better big 3. This is just bad basketball period. Stop making excuses for them.


They had 3 losses by January. I think you're the one forgetting.


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## Seanzie (Jun 9, 2003)

So 14 games in and we're writing off the Heat? A lot of you are going to have egg on your faces.

As for Spoelstra and all other NBA coaches, when you're winning, you're a great coach and everyone loves you. When you're struggling, it's your fault and you have a "mutiny" on your hands. Doc Rivers knows that better than anyone.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I'm not writing them off completely but I just don't see how they're going to solve their current problems with the resources that they currently have. The latest on Haslem is that he will miss the rest of the season. Dampier will help but you're not going to rely on him for more than 30 min a night.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Big blow if Haslem's really out for the season but that'll probably take pressure off them to win this season


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## Seanzie (Jun 9, 2003)

I'm going to subscribe to this thread so I can bump it up in three or four months.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Basel said:


> They had 3 losses by January. I think you're the one forgetting.


My bad, but I do remember they were putting up winning streaks and there was the whole 72 win debate going on.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Seanzie said:


> I'm going to subscribe to this thread so I can bump it up in three or four months.


You dont need to be nostradamus to know that without Haslem, they are in big trouble.


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## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

Dampier gives them added size, but his liabilities on the offensive end will likely result in Bosh getting double-teamed more often. And Bosh was just beginning to show signs of life..


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

HB said:


> You dont need to be nostradamus to know that without Haslem, they are in big trouble.


Haslem's replacable.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I admit they haven't looked as good as I thought they would. Hell, they don't look as good as they did three and a half weeks ago. Atleast they were playing unbelievable defense, and it was just a matter of working out the offensive schemes. When Spoelstra said he hadn't even put an offense in yet, and he was just letting them develop some chemistry and a tendency for habits and what not, I thought they would be fine. But somewhere along the line, he lost their attention, because that defensive effort isn't the same anymore. 

Spoelstra is a really good coach, but he may be out of his league with this team. He doesn't really demand the same respect that a Phil Jackson or Pat Riley does. That's as important as anything when you have three superstars. It's the same reason there is a very short list of coaches that could coach the Lakers. 

If this team is hovering around .500 in mid-December, Riley is making the move.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Floods said:


> Haslem's replacable.


Heh dont even start. And I know you arent good with quantifying, hustle, smarts, and leadership on court, but that's what Haslem brought to the court plus that unstoppable jumper.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

The difference here is that noone would fault Riley for taking over this time.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

HB said:


> Heh dont even start. And I know you arent good with quantifying, hustle, smarts, and leadership on court, but that's what Haslem brought to the court plus that unstoppable jumper.


Haslem's replacable.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

OneBadLT123 said:


> If Doc Rivers can "coach" the Boston big 3 to a championship then I dont see why Spo couldnt with Miami.
> 
> I dont believe this "the team sucks with Spolestra as coach" BS. When Boston got Allen, and KG to go along with Pierce, Doc Rivers was known to be a coach who started 1-19 with the Magic, lead the Magic to mediocre 40 win seasons, did absolutely nothing in Boston before the big 3 arrived.
> 
> Then you had KG and Allen arrive, some good abit washed-up role players and then a Championship. Honestly, who really was the coach for that Boston team? KG? Peirce? Doc was there mainly for moral support.



Two things:
1. The Celtics were easier to coach because they were all just out of their primes and willing to do whatever it took to win a title.
2. Doc Rivers could command some respect since he was an ex-player. They know he's been in the wars they have. 
3. Doc Rivers "ubuntu" concept was brilliant, and in the end he's proven that he's an excellent manager of superstar egos--which Spo is showing he's not.

The Heat need a coach who has a resume that can command respect, just as much as they need someone who has better ideas. Like someone said there are probably only three or four people who could coach the Lakers. I would suggest there's even less that can coach the Heat right now.

And yes that responsibility in the end is with the big three too, because they are IMO disrespecting Spoelstra. But on the other hand these guys gave up too much to risk it with a dummy coach who won't coach them to their strengths. So far Spoelstra has shown himself to be anything but innovative.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Floods said:


> Haslem's replacable.


Agreed, the question for me though is if they are good enough to win it all this year with or without Haslem/Dampier.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

How is Haslem so easily replacable? Not for what he offers individually but moreso what's on the market + the relative lack of assets the Heat have to trade?


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Yeah, Haslem is a 10/8 guy with good defense. There's not many of those floating around the market.

Plus he's one of the few that really knows the Heat system.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

The Heat were weak on the frontline with Haslem. They can only get players for the League minimum so that means they are only able to replace Haslem with d leaguers and free agents....players that no other team wants, who by definition would not be as good as Haslem. They'd need one hell of a lot of luck just to find someone who deserved some minutes. Best thing would be to take a look at PIttman. If he's not ready then you sit him back down.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

what's Zo doing these days. I'd take a 40 yr old Zo over Joel Anthony.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Zo would actually give you more than 1/4/1.5 blocks in 17 minutes per game right now, i'd say.

I agree about taking a look at Pittman. What's there to lose?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Or bring Sheed out of retirement. PJ Brown?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Earl Barron would fix everything but sadly that ship has sailed.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

These last few posts are sad


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> These last few posts are sad


You read my mind. Was just going to post the same thing.

Bill Russell is available.

Unfortunately, Wilt Chamberlain died in 1999. 

And George Mikan is also not available, having passed away in 2005.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Game3525 said:


> You do realize Doc Rivers is an excellent coach, alot of people would have him ranked in the top 5. It is not even comparable to Spo, who like Adam said is like Mike Brown.
> 
> Doc and draw up offensive plays with the best of them, can't say the same for Spo.


Doc became an excellent coach when the big 3 came together before that he was mediocre and a lot of people in Boston wanted him gone - players make coaches more often than the other way around (just like they can break them ahem, Lebron....)


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## simply_amazing (Aug 23, 2009)

Earl Watson.


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## simply_amazing (Aug 23, 2009)

Dan Gadzuric.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

smh.... I still maintain that the Heat are going to be fine. But Spoelstra is pathetic. Maybe Pat Riley really doesn't want to coach, they should bring in Mike Brown. LeBron seemed to play better under him.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

e-monk said:


> Doc became an excellent coach when the big 3 came together before that he was mediocre and a lot of people in Boston wanted him gone - players make coaches more often than the other way around (just like they can break them ahem, Lebron....)


Actually no, Doc has always been a good coach. He has always been one of the better offensive minds in basketball, his problem was always defense but having Tom Thibodeau and KG really helps cover his short comings as a coach.

Comparing him to Spo is an insult to Doc.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

actually no back at you - the people in Boston wanted to put him in a steamer trunk and ship him off to China

appearances are everything - winning is the best cosmetic but for 8 seasons Doc Rivers was a sub-.500 coach before 07-08 and you'd have to be both Laurel and Hardy to f- that mix of self monitoring talent up


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## CosaNostra (Sep 16, 2010)

Eric Dampier is not going to solve the Heat's problems. I think Haslem now is better than Dampier even in his prime. If Dampier was worth anything, he'd have been in a training camp this fall. They really need Bosh to grow a pair and start playing like a max contract player. Spoelstra also needs to pull his head out of his ass and realize that they are getting routinely burned by quick PGs, and that his best defender at the point position, Mario Chalmers, is playing about 5 minutes a game. Phil said it best, they are a solid defensive squad, but they don't do anything that you have to gameplan around. That's not how championship teams function.

Offensively, their three best players all operate out of the same space. Dwyane Wade and LeBron both feel most comfortable taking the ball at the top of the key. Unfortunately for the Heat, both of these players can't do that simultaneously. When one is doing that, the other is very obviously out of their element. LeBron and Wade both play better when the other is on the bench. Bosh plays a little closer to the basket, but he drifts away from the paint to the top of the key a lot. This not only leaves a void down low, but it cause even more congestion at the top of the key. And if Bosh really is upset about his lack of touches, he needs to take matters into his own hands and start rebounding the damn ball on the offensive end and creating for himself.

The Heat are buying into their own hype way too much right now. They believe that they can get by simply on their talent alone. I'm sure they worked this offseason to get better, but it's obvious that they worked on their individual games alone and not on how to work together better as a team. It's obvious that this is three guys trying to be the man and a bunch of role players championship chasing, not a TEAM. LeBron can say the haters aren't getting to him all he wants, but when he's getting involved in Twitter flame wars and crying racism after every game, it's clear they are. 

You can say "it's too early to judge anything" all you want, but the fact of the matter is, this team is way too talented to be hovering just barely above .500. They're almost 20% through the season already. They need to stop dicking around and get their act together and play as a team. Each player needs to understand their role. Bosh needs to start understanding he's expected to play defense and rebound. LeBron and Wade need to figure out which one is "the man". They have to figure it out. As long as they're claiming to "share" that, they'll both be clogging each others' space on the floor.


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## CosaNostra (Sep 16, 2010)

Doc Rivers was generally considered as a mediocre coach before the Big 3 and is still considered one now. He's a good players coach and his players respect him, but he's not exactly a strategic mastermind. When you have Kevin Garnett (one of the best big man passers ever and an outstanding jumpshooter), Ray Allen (possibly the best floor spacer in NBA history), Rajon Rondo (one of the best facilitators in the game) and Paul Pierce (can do a little of everything), offense isn't hard to figure out.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

e-monk said:


> actually no back at you - the people in Boston wanted to put him in a steamer trunk and ship him off to China
> 
> appearances are everything - winning is the best cosmetic but for 8 seasons Doc Rivers was a sub-.500 coach before 07-08 and you'd have to be both Laurel and Hardy to f- that mix of self monitoring talent up


Just because people in Boston wanted him gone, doesn't prove he is a bad coach. Rivers has always been a good coach, he took a bunch of role players and turned them into a 500. team in 2000. He has always been a good offensive mind, but his shortcomings was on defense, KG and Thibodeau offset that.

It is surprising how people still underrate Rivers as a coach, especially after last year.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Didn't Doc win a COY with the Magic before he went to the Celtics?

The solution to all of the Heat's problems is movement. They need to play like sharks. If they are standing still they are dying. They need to move on defense and scramble pushing for steals. And then they need to scramble for rebounds and then run. In the half court they need to be running more of a motion offense with ball movement. DWade needs to play like Richard Hamilton basically but instead of curling for jumpers, he needs to curl for drives. Bosh needs to set aggressive screens and roll to the basket. Lebron needs to be running his offense from the paint. Everything he does should be geared toward getting into the paint and pushing the ball for the fast break. 

This team needs to be trying to put up 120 every night, even if that means giving up 110. 

The Heat's advantage over the rest of the league is that they have the most athleticism at their 2/3/4 positions of anyone. Playing a slow pace negates that. Every team the Heat plays is trying to protect against them getting out in transition. That's because the Heat's most effective play is Lebron ripping down a rebound and running out with Wade.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

The Heat should have been humble and talk about building something great over time. This is exactly what I knew would happen and why they wouldn't win this year. Championship teams take time to gel. And you really don't know what you have until you get on the court. 

The need a strong willed coach, not Wade's weightlifting pal. They need fundamental players. A PF who gets ten boards a night. A SF who can move without the ball. A PG to just bring the ball up and spot up for an open shot. Big body who cares and tries to defend. Simple things. 

But, this superhero persona they have shown just opened themselves up for riducule and excuses. Its gonna be a hard year for whomever coaches this team. Maybe two.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

LA68 said:


> A PF who gets ten boards a night.


Bosh has quietly put up 20/10 the last two losses. What they need is specifically offensive rebounding. They're one and done every time down the floor right now. It's in large part because their power forward and center are playing on the perimeter to make room for the drives that Lebron and Wade don't make. Their floor balance is pretty horrible on offense. Defensively most of the rebounds they are giving up have to do with bad balance on defense. Their bigs are helping but no one is going back to cover their man on the glass, so they force that miss, but don't come up with the rebound.

They are a very very weird team right now with a lot of conflicting data.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

with haslem gone, that's 9/9 that someone else has to make up for. i think bosh's big nights in these 2 losses were fool's gold. i mean someone has to get those rebounds that are suddenly available w/o haslem's hustle. bosh's stats should go up a bit, but i don't see the heat getting much better. the slight increase in bosh's stats won't make up for the loss of one of the toughest, most professional pf's in the league.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

c_dog said:


> with haslem gone, that's 9/9 that someone else has to make up for. i think bosh's big nights in these 2 losses were fool's gold. i mean someone has to get those rebounds that are suddenly available w/o haslem's hustle. bosh's stats should go up a bit, but i don't see the heat getting much better. the slight increase in bosh's stats won't make up for the loss of one of the toughest, most professional pf's in the league.


Bosh and Haslem didn't play together enough for Haslem's numbers to have any effect on Bosh, I don't think. 

The Heat have more than enough good rebounders really. But the reason they are blowing offensive rebounds is because of poor positioning resulting from slow/poor defensive rotations within a questionable system. DWade is a one man wrecking crew for the defense right now, which is getting Bosh and everyone else out of position for defensive rebounds.

Additionally on offense they play both of their big men out on the wings too much, which hurts their chances for offensive rebounds, especially because Lebron and Wade are taking too many perimeter shots. The floor is balanced for them to drive and finish at the rim. If they don't do that and instead shoot jumpers against the flow of the offense, there is no one to play the offensive glass. If they are going to continue to shoot jumpers they need to position whoever is playing their center position closer to the glass on the offensive end.

It's pretty clear IMO that the Heat are tanking to get Spo fired. You look at all of the effort categories and the Heat are near the bottom of the league in that. Points in the paint, rebounding, heck even steals the Heat are awful in those categories. It's not the personel either. The Heat did much better in all of those categories last year with worse players. It's players not buying into the defense or offense, and playing in second gear. The only explanation for that is that the team is at a disconnect between them and the coach.

Clearly if you look at the Orlando game the Heat are capable of elite play when they are giving effort, even in a bad system. But if they give mediocre effort in a bad system, nothing is going to come easy.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

For all the crap that Bosh has been getting as the scapegoat for this team, it's been Wade who has been at fault for their losses. He's something like 20 for 80 in the 5 losses he's played in. The Heat are not deep enough to survive DWade sucking on any given night. That's where Mike Miller would have helped a lot because he could get you some consistent numbers off the bench when Wade is struggling. Wade against the Pacers was awful on both ends of the floor. Like historically awful. He was awful on both ends in the Celtics games too. Ray Allen, Brandon Rush--these are the guys Wade is guarding. Lebron did his part on Granger the other night, and did a solid job on Pierce. But if Wade isn't shutting down the other wing, the Heat have problems.

That's the misconception the Big Three have. They think this situation is supposed to be easier than anything they've played in, and that they need to sacrifice their games to make it work--but that's not true. All three of them need to give what they gave every night apart in order for the Heat without Miller and Haslem to be where they want to be. If DWade, Lebron, Bosh aren't getting you 20+ every night where are the points supposed to come from? James Jones? Eddie House? Big Z? Those guys are fill guys. The Big three need to be consistent. And right now the only one who has been consistent is Lebron, but even he is playing well below any standard he's set in his entire career.

The Heat CAN be an elite team. But the thing is being elite is about a mindset as much as a talent thing. And right now the Heat aren't right mentally.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

disagree. they DO need to sacrifice. last year, they were all the go to guy on their teams. it's not like that here. they have to do other things.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

afobisme said:


> disagree. they DO need to sacrifice. last year, they were all the go to guy on their teams. it's not like that here. they have to do other things.


What do they need to sacrifice? There's more than enough shots if they play at a faster pace(which they should be playing at). Lebron and Wade both need to do MORE than they did on their own. They need to play hard on defense every play. They need to rebound. They need to not turn the ball over.

I think the list of things they need to do now is much longer than what they did on their own teams. They need to be playing complete games at a high level of intensity.

When Lebron thinks sacrifice means he needs to shoot more jumpers than driving into the paint, then I think something is being lost in translation. If Lebron and Wade just play hard and smart then things will work. There's not enough on the rest of the team for them to play like it's an all-star game.

Also right now neither guy is playing as a go-to guy, which you have to admit the Heat would be better if one or both played with that level of intensisty. You can be a go-to guy without having a super high usage stat. They just need to be playing at a higher level of efficiency. Which given they are mostly single covered now, there's no excuse for them not to. There is no excuse whatsoever for Lebron or Wade to ball stop. They should be in constant motion on offense(and defense).


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## simply_amazing (Aug 23, 2009)

futuristxen said:


> For all the crap that Bosh has been getting as the scapegoat for this team, it's been Wade who has been at fault for their losses. He's something like 20 for 80 in the 5 losses he's played in. The Heat are not deep enough to survive DWade sucking on any given night. That's where Mike Miller would have helped a lot because he could get you some consistent numbers off the bench when Wade is struggling. Wade against the Pacers was awful on both ends of the floor. Like historically awful. He was awful on both ends in the Celtics games too. Ray Allen, Brandon Rush--these are the guys Wade is guarding. Lebron did his part on Granger the other night, and did a solid job on Pierce. But if Wade isn't shutting down the other wing, the Heat have problems.
> 
> That's the misconception the Big Three have. They think this situation is supposed to be easier than anything they've played in, and that they need to sacrifice their games to make it work--but that's not true. All three of them need to give what they gave every night apart in order for the Heat without Miller and Haslem to be where they want to be. If DWade, Lebron, Bosh aren't getting you 20+ every night where are the points supposed to come from? James Jones? Eddie House? Big Z? Those guys are fill guys. The Big three need to be consistent. And right now the only one who has been consistent is Lebron, but even he is playing well below any standard he's set in his entire career.
> 
> The Heat CAN be an elite team. But the thing is being elite is about a mindset as much as a talent thing. And right now the Heat aren't right mentally.


Only with the Heat can Mike Miller be considered a savior.


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## CosaNostra (Sep 16, 2010)

simply_amazing said:


> Only with the Heat can Mike Miller be considered a savior.


haha, I've been thinking the same thing. He went from Mike Miller's Expiring Contract last year to the Key to the Championship this year. Granted, he's a good player, but I think his value may be a bit overrated currently. He can't defend the paint and he can't defend point guards, so I'm not sure if he's what they're missing.

We'll find out when he comes back though. Having a sharpshooter who can handle the rock off the bench never hurts.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

simply_amazing said:


> Only with the Heat can Mike Miller be considered a savior.


When you only have 3 legit players on your roster, Mike Miller is pretty damn important. Not saying he's a savior, but he will be a significant addition for the second half of the season.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

CosaNostra said:


> haha, I've been thinking the same thing. He went from Mike Miller's Expiring Contract last year to the Key to the Championship this year. Granted, he's a good player, but I think his value may be a bit overrated currently. He can't defend the paint and he can't defend point guards, so I'm not sure if he's what they're missing.
> 
> We'll find out when he comes back though. Having a sharpshooter who can handle the rock off the bench never hurts.


To put it into perspective the second unit for the Heat right now is:
Lebron
House
Jones
Howard
Magloire(Dampier)

Mike Miller is a significant addition to that group. He's also going to be in that group of subs when Wade goes out and Bosh and Lebron are out there. Or you could switch it up and have him come on for Lebron and then play Lebron with Bosh in that third group before halftime.

It just gives the Heat some options where presently they don't really have much.


----------



## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

surprisingly the Heat dont get enough easy baskets


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

What a surprise, when Wade hogs the ball, Lebron gets taken out of his offense and when Lebron hogs the ball, Wade gets taken out of his.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Mike Miller will certainly make the Heat a better team because of his ball movement and ability to spread the floor. However, after watching Miller for the past season extensively, he can be a frustrating player to watch because of his inability to take wide open 3 point shots. He also isn't much of a defender, he's a ball watcher and tends to leave his man to crash the boards. He's a nice player as an 7th or 8th man but I'm skeptical that he'll put Miami over the top (i.e. win a championship). Not to mention that he's been injury prone in his last few seasons in the league.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

At least one of those guys will have to learn to move without the ball. Unfortunately they don't have the coach to do this.


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## simply_amazing (Aug 23, 2009)

I predicted a 55 win regular season. Right now, they play like a team that's going to win 45 regular season. 

Too much one on one, too much dribbling, too many bricks, too little ball movement. Zero offensive chemistry.

Either Spoelstra or Riles hires an offensive coordinator, or Spoelstra has to be replaced with a competent offensive coach. 

They were able to do nothing to contain Dwight or Jameer, either. 

If it weren't for the fact that they've played most of their games at home, they'd be a sub .500 team right now.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I really dont know how many teams they can beat with that type of effort and that type of defense. Its not just happening. Spo's going to get fired, but maybe Riley or whoever comes in will miraculously turn things around.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Pat Riley meets with Spoelstra to talk about the team:


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

8-7 from a team that is supposed to win the next six titles in a row.

:laugh:

Even I didn't think they would stink this much. Watching them makes my skin crawl...all that money and it isn't translating into watchable basketball. Riley better do something...fast.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Ron said:


> 8-7 from a team that is supposed to win the next six titles in a row.
> 
> :laugh:
> 
> Even I didn't think they would stink this much. Watching them makes my skin crawl...all that money and it isn't translating into watchable basketball. Riley better do something...fast.


Fortunately there's a long time between now and the next six titles. But Riley needs to step in sooner than later before all of these bad habits become set.

They were playing a lot better the first week or two of the season. Since the last Boston game the effort has fallen off a cliff.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

The good people of Cleveland would like to tell the folks in Miami....Happy thanksgiving!


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

Cleveland is 6-8, it'd be hilarious if they can get a better record then the Heat.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

yeah, I don't understand why people keep saying that Riley is too old to coach. Larry Brown is still out there and the guy is like 80.

I think if Miami doesn't bounce back and win the next 2-3 games in a row Spo will be out.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Kenneth said:


> Cleveland is 6-8, it'd be hilarious if they can get a better record then the Heat.


They're going to kill the Heat next week. With their rebounding and point guard play it's not going to be pretty. That's not even factoring in the choke job that Lebron will lay in that atmosphere.


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## simply_amazing (Aug 23, 2009)

What are you smokin' dude?

Regardless of who the coach is, nothing changes the fact that bron/bosh/wade are one player in triplicate on offense. 



futuristxen said:


> there's a long time between now and the next six titles.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

simply_amazing said:


> What are you smokin' dude?
> 
> Regardless of who the coach is, nothing changes the fact that bron/bosh/wade are one player in triplicate on offense.


Well your solution is blowing up the team, which isn't an option. So I guess I'm just trying to be pragmatic in my solutions.


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## simply_amazing (Aug 23, 2009)

This is what you get when the inmates run the asylum.

Now the Heat are loaded down with enormous contracts over the next 6 seasons. 

LeBron's going to star pointing the finger at someone (again). 

Spoelstra's just the first. Watch your back, Heat.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

The Heat will be fine. This year looks a little rough but they'll be fine with an offseason or two.

People need to learn how to step out of the moment.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

So I'm just throwing it out there but could it be that maybe the 2 alpha dogs just can't play in a system/motion offense? I don't know with Wade because I honestly haven't watched that many Miami games in the past couple of years but Lebron NEEDS the ball and the offense to run through him. I have never seen him play in a motion offense so I'm wondering if maybe him and Wade just don't have that skill and that is why we just see iso, iso, iso, pnr, pnr, pnr


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## CosaNostra (Sep 16, 2010)

I'm an admitted LeBron hater, so this is definitely a lot of fun for me to watch. But they're too talented to not turn it around. They'll win 50-55 games. I can see teams like Chicago, Boston and Orlando giving them a lot of trouble in the playoffs though. All three can beat them down low and have quick dangerous point guards.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> yeah, I don't understand why people keep saying that Riley is too old to coach. Larry Brown is still out there and the guy is like 80.
> 
> I think if Miami doesn't bounce back and win the next 2-3 games in a row Spo will be out.


I'm not saying he's too old, but what I am hearing is that he just doesn't want to do it...he really needs a push...I am sure he would take over the reigns reluctantly at this point in time.

There is another thing to consider: what if he feels he ****ed up? Does he want to tarnish his legacy by taking over as coach a team he thinks to himself cannot win?

That may be a huge burden for him to accept.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

Oh and btw I do think they'll win over 50 and probably go on a huge winning streak and I wouldn't be surprised if they contended, the main thing I was trying to get across is that Lebron and Wade might not be able to run a traditional halfcourt offense like people want Spo to do.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Don't underestimate the possibility of him just hiring another big name this offseason if he really doesn't want to do it...no idea who though.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> Don't underestimate the possibility of him just hiring another big name this offseason if he really doesn't want to do it...no idea who though.


Phil Jackson. :lol:


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

How funny would that be? Pat Riley and Phil Jackson working together would blow my mind. Supposedly they actually get along really well. Knicks-Bulls rivalries notwithstanding.

Doesn't Phil Jackson get tired of winning championships though?


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## CosaNostra (Sep 16, 2010)

Phil Jackson is about as likely to coach the Heat next year as I am.

He'll get his threepeat and retire


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Doesn't Phil Jackson get tired of winning championships though?


That's like saying human beings get tired of sex.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

lol if you think LeBron catches **** now wait until Phil's his coach, Riley's his GM, Wade and Bosh are his henchman and they still don't win a title*




*yes I'm joking.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

CosaNostra said:


> Phil Jackson is about as likely to coach the Heat next year as I am.
> 
> He'll get his threepeat and retire


The thought just crossed my mind and made laugh out loud. I had to post it.

It would be freakin' hilarious, in light of recent statements made by Big Chief Triangle.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

He said today if there's a lockout he'd probably retire, right?

It's kind of a shame this era of coaches--we don't really have anyone on the level of your Pat Riley, Phil Jackson, Jerry Sloan guys. There's a lot more Eric Spoelstra type guys around than big time coaches. I wonder why that is. There's not even guys like Larry Brown anymore. Stan Van Gundy and Doc Rivers are probably the two best coaches of this younger generation, no? Maybe Mike D'Antoni is this generation's Don Nelson?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Phil isn't coming back after this season.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> He said today if there's a lockout he'd probably retire, right?


It took a lot of prodding just to get him to come back this year. Everyone says that Phil was holding out to teach Jerry Buss a lesson about even THINKING about cutting Phil's salary, but it is my understanding that Phil had had enough of the grind.

The lure of a possible 4th 3-peat was what eventually won him over.

It is my understanding he will be retiring after this year anyway. Next year's lockout has nothing to do with Phil leaving. If he said it, it is just a convenient excuse for him.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

It's a shame. I'll miss the Big Zen.


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## CosaNostra (Sep 16, 2010)

futuristxen said:


> Maybe Mike D'Antoni is this generation's Don Nelson?


haha, that's a pretty apt comparison.

There's still a few coaches we haven't seen what they really can do. I think Kurt Rambis and Brian Shaw both have bright futures as head coaches. Nate McMillan is a good coach. We haven't seen what Tom Thibadeau can do, it's only been 15 games, and he's looked solid. Monte Williams seems to be getting his players to play at a high level. And think about all the current players that potentially could be great coaches some day. Derek Fisher and Grant Hill come to mind immediately.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

One thing I've seen too much of is coaches who only coach one side of the ball(usually defensive), but who don't have a dedicated offensive coordinator to help them on that end of the floor. I remember Mike Brown only had Kuester for one year and the Cavs offense was night and day from how it was previously. And then after he left the Cavs didn't replace him. 

It doesn't seem like coaches are putting as much thought into their staff as maybe they once did. I wonder if Phil would have been half the coach he was had he not had Tex Winter helping him out on the bench.


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## CosaNostra (Sep 16, 2010)

futuristxen said:


> One thing I've seen too much of is coaches who only coach one side of the ball(usually defensive), but who don't have a dedicated offensive coordinator to help them on that end of the floor. I remember Mike Brown only had Kuester for one year and the Cavs offense was night and day from how it was previously. And then after he left the Cavs didn't replace him.
> 
> It doesn't seem like coaches are putting as much thought into their staff as maybe they once did. I wonder if Phil would have been half the coach he was had he not had Tex Winter helping him out on the bench.


Well, Tex hasn't been coaching for the past two years, so I guess he's doing alright!


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

A lot of young coaches who were formerly gritty guards. Doc, Avery, Brooks, Skiles, McMillian, Byron Scott, etc.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Well now. But at this point he's got the triangle running on automatic. But I think it was important for Phil to have a stronge coordinator next to him when he was much younger. I think Head Coaches ideally should be more about man management/motovation/decision making stuff, and the assistants should be dealing more with the minutiae of the systems they are implementing. Someone like Spoelstra or Mike Brown just don't have that fire to lead. They're glorified assistants in over their head past a certain point.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I think Rick Adelman would be a good fit in Miami if Riley wants to stay in the office. Wonder if they can yank him from Houston. He has the offensive creativity to make it work, but he'd need a defensive minded assistant.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> A lot of young coaches who were formerly gritty guards. Doc, Avery, Brooks, Skiles, McMillian, Byron Scott, etc.


Ooo Skiles forgot about him. I like him a lot.

Brooks I think is overrated and overly fixated on his defense to the detriment of his offense.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Well now. But at this point he's got the triangle running on automatic. But I think it was important for Phil to have a stronge coordinator next to him when he was much younger. I think Head Coaches ideally should be more about man management/motovation/decision making stuff, and the assistants should be dealing more with the minutiae of the systems they are implementing. Someone like Spoelstra or Mike Brown just don't have that fire to lead. They're glorified assistants in over their head past a certain point.


I agree. It's more apparent in the NBA where assistant coaches are more profiled..but most assistants are intelligent basketball minds who are are good for strategy and input, but there's so many other aspects: leadership, respect, making the right decisions under pressure, proper rotations, minute allotment that you really have no idea whether a guy is equipped to handle when you hire him.


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## CosaNostra (Sep 16, 2010)

futuristxen said:


> Well now. But at this point he's got the triangle running on automatic. But I think it was important for Phil to have a stronge coordinator next to him when he was much younger. I think Head Coaches ideally should be more about man management/motovation/decision making stuff, and the assistants should be dealing more with the minutiae of the systems they are implementing. Someone like Spoelstra or Mike Brown just don't have that fire to lead. They're glorified assistants in over their head past a certain point.


I agree. I don't think someone can be faulted for having a strong cast of assistants around them though. It's the best way to win. If you're smart enough to realize this, you're doing a good job.

Look at all the best coaches in any sport- they always surround themselves with strong assistants. Guys like Phil Jackson, Bill Walsh, Bill Belicheck- how many guys are in their respective coaching trees?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Ooo Skiles forgot about him. I like him a lot.
> 
> Brooks I think is overrated and overly fixated on his defense to the detriment of his offense.


Brooks? Maybe I'm tripping but I've seen people saying the Thunder's defense is a weak spot this year and I remember last year raving about the Thunder's pace and point totals.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Scott Brooks is a lot like Doc Rivers. He coaches movement off the ball on offense, and strong help defense based on hustle, effort and playing for your teammates. Plus he says all that "play for each other" type stuff Doc is always talking about. 

Last year, I thought he was more of a defensive coach, but he isn't a bad offensive coach. As long as his guys are buying in, he is a good coach. I fear that his message will get repetitive at some point, and like with any coach good or bad, if the team stops listening, then your job is finished.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Dre™ said:


> The Heat will be fine. This year looks a little rough but they'll be fine with an offseason or two.
> 
> People need to learn how to step out of the moment.


during the prime time bspn bs 'The Decision' broadcast Bron was asked about winning a championship for the Heat, he said: "Not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six, not seven."

so now I ask you: how many offseasons?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

futuristxen said:


> Maybe Mike D'Antoni is this generation's Don Nelson?






CosaNostra said:


> haha, that's a pretty apt comparison.


I'd actually go more with Doug Moe but that just shows that Im old


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Adelman would be perfect for this team. He would just need an assistant who is a defensive specialist.

JVG would get these guys egos in check also, but offensively his game plan is a little too 90's


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

Doc would be a pretty good choice IMO. He is a great motivator and knows his offense. Of course you would need a defensive assistant.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

e-monk said:


> during the prime time bspn bs 'The Decision' broadcast Bron was asked about winning a championship for the Heat, he said: "Not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six, not seven."
> 
> so now I ask you: how many offseasons?


Greg Oden says he wants like 11. How many surgeries?

Every player aspires to win every year.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

Imo i think this more to do with Eric the way he's coaching. He look like he don't know what the hell he's doing. I think Dampier should be starting for now on cause he's the stronger big man on the center position for the heat. Oh and what the nets need is a true pg that isn't slow like Arroyo.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

e-monk said:


> I'd actually go more with Doug Moe but that just shows that Im old


Is Doug Moe still alive? He'd be a great choice as well.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Lebron says competition is not as hard in the East

http://twitter.com/AlexKennedyNBA/status/7647433924280320



> "In the Eastern Conference you have a lot longer [to figure things out] than you do in the West," said LeBron James.
> 
> "Teams hover around .500 and still make the playoffs. I'm not saying that's what we want to do, be a .500 team, but we have some time," -LBJ


So if they were in the west they would be below .500? Nice


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## simply_amazing (Aug 23, 2009)

OneBadLT123 said:


> Lebron says competition is not as hard in the East
> 
> http://twitter.com/AlexKennedyNBA/status/7647433924280320
> 
> ...


Straight from the horse's mouth.

Waiting for futur to swoop in with a rationalization of the "evil media" for reporting this...


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Dre™ said:


> Greg Oden says he wants like 11. How many surgeries?
> 
> Every player aspires to win every year.


but they dont go on primetime specials and start talking about how theyre going to run off 6 or 7 titles in a row


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

futuristxen said:


> Is Doug Moe still alive? He'd be a great choice as well.


they certainly wouldnt suffer for offense and come to think of it Issel, English, David Thompson - sounds pretty big 3-like to me

and of course no one rocks the plaid suits with fat back ties the way Moe did anymore and that is a shame


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

simply_amazing said:


> Straight from the horse's mouth.
> 
> Waiting for futur to swoop in with a rationalization of the "evil media" for reporting this...


People say that exact same thing around here all of the time and it's not an issue. But Lebron saying it is bad?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

People see this? Old Jordan ad mashed up against the new Lebron ad. Jordan ethers Lebron.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEVCjUG1Mww


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

That just isn't Jordan's voice. But it is a well-done video.

Poor LeBron is really getting a lot of grief. But he sure brought it upon himself.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

It actually is Jordan. It's from a old Jordan commerical that someone mashed up brilliantly with Lebron's commercial. Though I don't remember the old commercial. Jordan is the bitter old man of NBA basketball, ha.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

*Mimai Heat is in trouble*

Look at James numbers. This got to show James is 1 dimenionsal. He is not as all around as you think he is.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

*Heat will lose 20 of 30 games to the West, 20 of 52 games to the east.

Season projection: go down from 72 wins to 42 wins.*


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Is he REALLY going to do this chalk **** in Cleveland? I predict some crazy fan is going to come out of the stands and stick that chalk where the sun don't shine for LeBron.


----------



## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

All of a sudden that Heat/Cavs matchup doesn't look so one-sided


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Ron said:


> Is he REALLY going to do this chalk **** in Cleveland? I predict some crazy fan is going to come out of the stands and stick that chalk where the sun don't shine for LeBron.


He kind of has to, no? It's his pre-game ritual. It would be really bad luck not to do it.


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

Ron said:


> Is he REALLY going to do this chalk **** in Cleveland? I predict some crazy fan is going to come out of the stands and stick that chalk where the sun don't shine for LeBron.


LOL
I am not exactly the biggest LeBron fan in the world. But LeBron is a 6'8 250lb person.

I like LeBron's chances if some guy does want to get physical.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

Miami looks like a bunch of dudes playing pickup basketball. No level of intensity or anything. It's not a matter of the team losing games, but how horrible Miami has looked. Lack of defense, poor and passive attitudes, no urgency and no hustle, especially against good teams. 

Those back-to-back losses to Utah and Boston seemed to have crushed this team emotionally. Really, getting stomped by Indiana at home?!? That loss to Memphis was also disturbing.

Heat coach Eric Spolestra has no clue on how to maximize the talents of LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. LeBron and D-Wade have basically turned into a modern-day version of Julius Erving and George McGinnis -- it's like they are playing "My turn, your turn" in terms of being the top dog and as a result neither are dominant. They certainly are not the stud players they were separately. They look incredibly and distrubingly passive at times.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

I bet if Mike Miller was playing, this would be a much better team.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Blu said:


> I bet if Mike Miller was playing, this would be a much better team.


They would be better for sure.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

> Tweets:
> 
> SpearsNBAYahoo Nearly 40 minutes since game ended after Dallas loss and Heat lockeroom still closed. 15 minutes ago
> 
> ...


atleast they realize it.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

this is obviously a bigger problem than just not having mike miller or udonis haslem. no doubt those are two guys who can really help this team, but the real key here is the 3 superstars are not playing well together. mike miller and udonis haslem should be the difference maker from making them a contender, but right now this team is hovering above mediocrity. that shouldn't be the case when you have the big 3. no excuses. figure it out!

it's obvious these guys didn't want to work for a championship. that's why they teamed up. but the nba is too competitive. i don't care how talented you are. you can be the most gifted athlete in the world like james but if you're so lazy that you refuse to work hard, then you don't deserve to win.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Y'all are some crabs. Rome wasn't built in a day. 

I realize we're on a message board and we need stuff to talk about everyday. But we do realize there's like 6+ years these guys will be together...people acting like this after less than 20 games is pathetic. 

I was reading the Jordan tribute SLAM and I thought about this...what kind of **** would he have gotten if message boards were like this in the 80s? 

I wonder how many "Jordan is a cancer that will never win" threads I could bump...how many "Bulls won't win anything, they're not rebounding well in their first 20 games" threads I could bump..how many "fire Phil" threads I could bump.

It's very obvious this incarnation has fundamental flaws, it's become even more obvious this team probably won't beat the Celtics much less the Lakers...but it's one year. Riley took a chance last year, he did the heavy lifting, now it's just a matter of cosmetic work in the future. No championship team got their whole roster in one swoop, but noone seems to remember that in the moment.

People Please. Give the guys time before you call bust or "trade so and so". Bosh will find his balls, Wade and LeBron will find their balance, and Riley will find them roleplayers, and if it doesn't happen in the next 3 ****in hours it's not the end of the NBA.


----------



## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> Y'all are some crabs. Rome wasn't built in a day.
> 
> I realize we're on a message board and we need stuff to talk about everyday. But we do realize there's like 6+ years these guys will be together...people acting like this after less than 20 games is pathetic.
> 
> ...


BS! bull****!

don't say that crap like you believe it's true. this is what all the apologist say.

so no championship team was built in one day eh? you don't have to go back very far to remember the boston big 3 of 3 seasons ago. the celtics were built the moment they landed ray allen and kevin garnett. the boston big 3 lived up to the hype and the expectations instantly.

as for the lakers. they were essentially built when they got pau gasol. pau gasol instantly made them contenders. the aging celtics and acquisition of artest helped them win easier but essentially that team clicked the moment they got their big pieces.

heat has a flawed roster, nobody is denying that, and that would be excusable but their big pieces not fitting together is not. they don't need to win a championship right away, but to be hovering a few games above mediocrity and being embarrassed the way they have been is downright shameful and pathetic.


----------



## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

Oh ****, the dreaded players only meeting.


----------



## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> Y'all are some crabs. Rome wasn't built in a day.
> 
> I realize we're on a message board and we need stuff to talk about everyday. But we do realize there's like 6+ years these guys will be together...people acting like this after less than 20 games is pathetic.
> 
> ...


While I agree that they will figure it out and they will win atleast 1 ring it is not blown out of proportion. As a bulls fan we have 8 new players, a new coaching staff, a new system and we are still missing our 20 and 10 free agent signing and the bulls don't seem to going through many growth pains. That aside it is obviously more than not getting to know each others game. It is clear that nobody wants to really sacrifice their game. And they don't have 6+ years together, they all have Player options in the 4th year, I am sure they will be using that player option and atleast one of them will leave.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

They'll have two titles by then they won't want to leave.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

They'll have two titles? On what basis are you making this assumption?

As for your previous post, yes you can argue that no championship team was built in a day. However the issue here is bigger than the team itself, it's the three best players, I don't remember any championship team ever having their three best players not play this well together. The chemistry they have on the court along with the style of their games does not look like it will work, I'm not saying it can't change but as of now their attitudes, their histories, and their styles of play are leading many people to believe that these guys don't have what it takes. 

I'm on the side that believes that they are going to right the ship and win 50+ this year, go on a streak where they look like all world beaters, and they will be contenders at the end of the season. But if we can take anything away from this season is that if we can't dismiss them after only playing 17 games in which they look mediocre then how can we anoint them champions for the following two years with absolutely no evidence of them playing like champions aside from one quarter against the Magic. 

So in conclusion while I do believe that a better coach, point guard and center would help we can't avoid the obvious; that the Big Three's styles of play do not mesh on the court.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> They'll have two titles by then they won't want to leave.


Or they'll take their two titles and try to build on their individual legacies. Remember in 4 years lebron will only be 29 or 30. He'll have his title and still be in his prime, he'll want to prove he can do it by himself. Legacies do play a major factor.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Dre™ said:


> People Please. Give the guys time before you call bust or "trade so and so".


Nah, that's no fun. :jr:


----------



## 36 Karat (Nov 10, 2005)

I haven't rep'd anybody in years but I'm about to rep Dre for the hell of it, because the man just spoke the Blake Griffin. I mean, the man just spoke the truth.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

Dre™ said:


> People Please. Give the guys time before you call bust or "trade so and so". Bosh will find his balls, Wade and LeBron will find their balance, and Riley will find them roleplayers, and if it doesn't happen in the next 3 ****in hours it's not the end of the NBA.


I know I'm not saying that. I'm saying a team with arguably three of the top 20 players in the NBA (and two of them are considered in the top five) should be better than a .500 team that has looked terribly at times. No one would expect that from a team featuring LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

Dre™;6420325 said:


> Y'all are some crabs. Rome wasn't built in a day.
> 
> I realize we're on a message board and we need stuff to talk about everyday. But we do realize there's like 6+ years these guys will be together...people acting like this after less than 20 games is pathetic.
> 
> ...


totally disagree with you, and you don't provide any tangible reasons why they'll be any good. we don't know how the CBA is going to work out, so we don't know exactly how the pieces will fit together for them. i'm not bandwagoning, i didn't like the heat team the day lebron signed. i always thought putting 3 ball dominant players on the same team is not a good idea, and after watching the heat stumble.. nothing has changed my mind.

you saying "oh they'll be really good" isn't enough of a reason/logic for me to even consider your point. the "if the bulls were around.. blah blah" logic isn't really proof.. it's all conjecture from you. also, you likening the expectations of the 80's pre-championship bulls to the miami heat (with 3 superstars) is absurd.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Dre™;6420325 said:


> Y'all are some crabs. Rome wasn't built in a day.
> 
> I realize we're on a message board and we need stuff to talk about everyday. But we do realize there's like 6+ years these guys will be together...people acting like this after less than 20 games is pathetic.
> 
> ...


If only we didnt see the Celtics big 3 waltz their way to the championship the same season they were put together. You sir are just making excuses.

And oh before anyone says its this early, check out what those guys were doing early on in the season and compare it to this lackadaisical bunch.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

This is the Lakers before Phil IMO. But about ten times worse. Plus I do think people are underrating the losses of Haslem and Miller. You're taking a team that was probably only 6 deep to begin with, and you've taken off two of them.

A lot of their problems aren't about fit either. They are about effort. They aren't playing hard on either end of the floor. They could win a lot more games just by working hard. Especially defensively.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Remember Heat fans saying they'd be a good defensive team this year because they were good defensively with scrubs last year? 

It's great not being retarded.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> This is the Lakers before Phil IMO. But about ten times worse. Plus I do think people are underrating the losses of Haslem and Miller. You're taking a team that was probably only 6 deep to begin with, and you've taken off two of them.
> 
> A lot of their problems aren't about fit either. They are about effort. They aren't playing hard on either end of the floor. They could win a lot more games just by working hard. Especially defensively.


i don't know if they were any worse.. they had a lot of young guys who were unproven. they only had 1 superstar in shaq, and a handful of good players (nick van exel, eddy jones, elden campbell, cedric ceballos, and a very young and undeveloped kobe).

also, don't forget the blazers of 2000. that team assembled very quickly, and they were 1 quarter away from going to the finals against a very weak pacers team.




Cap said:


> Remember Heat fans saying they'd be a good defensive team this year because they were good defensively with scrubs last year?
> 
> It's great not being retarded.


wade also claimed they'd be a good defensive team. with no defensive anchor, i don't see how they're going to be all that great.


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## simply_amazing (Aug 23, 2009)

Not even close. Those Lakers had the most dominant big of the era. The Heat have Zadrunas.

The Lakers were winning 60 games a season even before Phil.

The Heat are barely .500 even with most of their games at home, and against weak opposition in the EC. 

The Lakers had two superstars, only one of whom was in their prime.

The Heat have 3 superstars, all in their prime. 

Everyone knew if they could cooperate, that Kobe and Shaq could win multiple titles togther.

Everyone knows that since they all have the same offensive game, it will be difficult for the Heat stars to work together. 

Also, the effort is only the symptom. The root problem is that LeBron and Bosh are knuckleheads. 

Whereas Kobe was, and is, the hardest working player in the game.

The more I see them play, the more convinced I am that the current iteration of the Heat will never win a ring (much less six---roflmao). 



futuristxen said:


> This is the Lakers before Phil IMO. But about ten times worse.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

This team deserves all the bullets fired at them for the spectacle of an offseason the did. They made the NBA a complete punchline to most fans, and self proclaimed next dynasty.

Boo ****ing hoo


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

hroz said:


> LOL
> I am not exactly the biggest LeBron fan in the world. But LeBron is a 6'8 250lb person.
> 
> I like LeBron's chances if some guy does want to get physical.


I am 5'8" chinese a$$, do u like my chance?


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## simply_amazing (Aug 23, 2009)

If you tap LeBron's elbow, the fight's over.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> Y'all are some crabs. Rome wasn't built in a day.
> 
> I realize we're on a message board and we need stuff to talk about everyday. But we do realize there's like 6+ years these guys will be together...people acting like this after less than 20 games is pathetic.
> 
> ...


Can't compare 3 top 15 guys in their prime to a 21-25 year old trying to find his way with a bunch of journeymen on a franchise with little success. Jordan won two titles by his 8th year, which is what season LeBron is in now.

But anyways I agree that the same fickle people wanting to trade and fire everyone now will call them unbeatable next winning streak. We see it every year the Lakers have a complacent regular season. Hell I haven't seen any Bosh sucks posts in a while.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Dre needs more rep after that post. Here here.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

What an objective Heat fan.....oh wait!!!


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

What? An objective Brook Lopez fan!?

Oh wait :yep:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Haha at this guy, I'd say good retort but since this thread has nothing to do with Lopez.....welp!


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Nah, I just find it funny that a Nets fan is having a go at us. You guys have been up there with the least objective for a while (see: TWill superstar, Brook Lopez superstar...etc).

Our ship will get righted eventually. Yeah we may suck at the moment, but these guys will figure it out.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Yeah, and I find it funny how all you guys have disappeared from commenting in the main NBA board over say, the last five games or so. Only future has the balls (ironic in and of itself) to come in here and face the music while you guys hide shivering in the Heat board.

If you can't stand the Heat (_double entendre_, as it were), then get out of the kitchen. Or the NBA board, as in this case.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

BTW, what every happened to that poster Heated?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I do think most sensible people here know that they'll eventually get it turned around. I think everyone is just enjoying the fact that the most hated team in the league has now become the biggest joke. It's really exactly what most of America wanted after this summer. So it's kind of the most feel good story of shadenfraude in awhile.

This is what I wanted to happen with the Celtics when they put the big three together. So I can imagine how fun it must be.

The disaster of it all is pretty remarkable no matter what side you are on though. But they wouldn't be this hated if there wasn't just a little seed of fear behind that. People want this to fail because the alternative is horrifying for them. I would like this to work, but if it works I want it to work in a special way not just because they buy into a stupid system that turns them into a robot borg team. I want to see positionality thrown out the window. I want to see fast breaks. Motion offense where everyone can play every position and attack from any angle. I want them to forget about individual stats and go for insane team numbers.

If it's going to be a failure, it should be catastrophic. If it's going to succeed it had better not be a mediocre success.

I wonder what the failure of the Heat is doing to the perception of the NBA right now? Are people starting to tune out again?


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

If it fails, it fails because of mechanics.

They still have major problems at the 1 and the 5. That's what it really *boils* down too. (Gotta love these play of words.  )


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

No idea what happened to Heated - and don't really care tbh. 

I contribute 99% of my posts to the Heat forum regardless. If you want me to come here to eat crow and say 'I was wrong', well I won't do that. The sample size is too small to form any conclusions. We've got time to get it right - but there's no doubt this is not what we envisioned going into this season.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Its 15 games into the season man.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

15 games does not a season make.

It's enough of a sample to say we're short a decent PG and C. That we're struggling in just about every aspect at the moment.

The good news is that it's only 15 games out of 82. If we're still playing like this in March - that's panic time.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

It is only 15 games, but they have problems that aren't going to go away by March.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Maybe not - but i'd hope they're playing a lot better than they are right now by March.

I think Wade and Lebron are too good a players to continue to play this badly for another 20 games. I'd hope that eventually they settle for less long, fadeaway two's and start attacking the paint.

We still haven't even had our full compliment of players together for a whole game yet. No excuses, we're playing bad and we should have enough to beat most teams on a regular basis - which we aren't doing, but its something to think about.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

Man, laker fans love bashing the Heat.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

This team just hasn't figured "it" out yet. We can sit here and discuss what that "it" is, whether it is the PG and C positions, whether it is the pace, the lack of motion on offense, the effort. I honestly can't tell which of these things will stay and which won't. 

The Lakers have always had problems defending PG's and we've done ok so just as easily as everyone is saying the PG position is a problem it could turn around and stop being one. I don't know.

The effort can be turned around with a different coach, as much as people might not like hearing that.

The center problem should be ok with the addition of Dampier, if Z, Hickson, and Andy were doing fine for the Cavs, Z, Anthony, Bosh, Dampier, and Magloire should be fine with the right defensive scheme.

The only thing I do not see being fixed this year is the problem of all three players being unable to play off ball. I'm not saying the Heat can't win, I just think if they win it will be despite having their three best players looking confused and out of place on offense for most nights. They (mainly Wade and Lebron) need to expand their games and not be so one dimensional. That means adding more than one on one dribble drive moves and pullups to their arsenal in the half court set.

With that said, I still think the Heat will be fine and contending with 50+ wins in the regular season.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

^ That's a fair and reasonable assessment.

A lot of the problem has been Wade and James settling for what the D is giving them. And sadly, that's effecting their effort on the other end - as opposing 2's have killed us this year.

Effort and energy are two keys - we're not playing hard enough for long enough. Teams are outworkings us and executing better.

Our D and O has been woeful the past 10 games or so. No flow on either end.

I think Bosh has adjusted, but Wade and Lebron need to. Why we aren't running any pick n roll's with those 2, ill never know.

Also - no idea why we only seem 2 run pick n roll's and no other offense.


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## simply_amazing (Aug 23, 2009)

Riley isn't dumb enough to take over as coach for this team. 

The only drama remaining is predicting the timing for when all the rats scurry off this sinking ship. 

I give it 'till March.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

caseyrh said:


> Man, laker fans love bashing the Heat.


No, you got it wrong, as far as specifics go.

It's about bashing any pretender.

Notice no Laker fan bashed the Celtics, eh? Lakers respect the Celtics, because they are NOT pretenders.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7lMXXaUaIo&feature=related


i thought that was fun. im sure most everyone already saw it though.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

Ron said:


> No, you got it wrong, as far as specifics go.
> 
> It's about bashing any pretender.
> 
> Notice no Laker fan bashed the Celtics, eh? Lakers respect the Celtics, because they are NOT pretenders.


Whatever...


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## simply_amazing (Aug 23, 2009)

9W + 8L = 17 games. Must be that new math you're attempting. You'll get a pass on this one. 



Wade County said:


> 15 games does not a season make.
> 
> It's enough of a sample to say we're short a decent PG and C. That we're struggling in just about every aspect at the moment.
> 
> The good news is that it's only 15 games out of 82. If we're still playing like this in March - that's panic time.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Heat maybe able to solve these 3 problems next month.

1. get a defensive center who can grab 12 rebounds a game; (90% of Noah)

2. get a defensive point guard who can pass the ball; (90% of John Paxson)

3. get a defensive PF who can grab 4 offensive rebounds a game.(60% of Rodman)


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

caseyrh said:


> Whatever...


Plus you raise an interesting point...if the Warm had been successful to date, then you surely wouldn't see any bashing now, would you?


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

I'm sure some of you would still have found a way.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Does anyone else get the sense that a lot of Miami's rebounding problems have to do with guys getting out of position on offense and defense? The Heat give up penetration so easily that the bigs have to help, which leaves second chance opportunities on the weakside of the glass--which is why a team like the Cavaliers historically had been so good at rebounding on the offensive glass--just because whenever you distort the defense like that, you get rebounding lanes opening up--simply because of that distortion.

They have good rebounders on the team. Z, Dampier, Bosh, Lebron, Wade, Haslem before he got injured, Magloire, even Joel Anthony--but most of them are rebounding under their career averages, and I think a lot of it has to do with being so confused on defense.

Offensively their rebounding problem is almost entirely tied to Lebron and Wade shooting too many jumpers with none of their bigs under the basket in position to rebound...i.e. bad shots.

The other aspect of the equation is that the teams they are playing are 100 times more hungry for the 50/50 balls than the Heat are because the game means much more to the team they are playing on any given night. 

I think as the Heat play harder and in a more organized way the rebounding will pick up and once that happens they'll start blowing more teams out because they'll be getting a lot of one and dones.

As for defensive center this is something that is being overblown. They haven't been exposed at the center position any more than anyone else in the league. I mean the Heat have more than enough to get it done at the center position in a league that really only has about 3 centers in it. 

Defensively there are two main issues that I see:
1. Giving up too much penetration to point guards
2. Over helping by DWade, Bosh, and Lebron--which is screwing up the spacing on defense and giving up open looks everywhere. It doesn't look like they have much communication going on out there in terms of how they are going to react to the pick and roll, and because of it once the defense breaks down, all three sort of end up everywhere at once while being nowhere where they need to be. This should be fixed by coaching, film sessions, and communication.

These two issues are the key for all of their rebounding, points in the paint problems(most of which are coming off second chance points it seems). And now those problems are responsible for stagnating the offense because you can't run if you aren't rebounding, and these first two problems are killing their ability to run. That and that they aren't turning teams over enough to compensate for the risks they are taking.

Wade is specifically the biggest culprit. A lot of times it's his cheating, poor communication that is throwing his teammates off. Which is weird because if anyone should know the defense out there it's Wade.

Personnel wise I think they have what they need on their roster currently. I think Mario Chalmers probably needs to get into the rotation more, and Joel Anthony needs to get back in it as well. Chalmers at least has the physical tools to stay in front of his man at a higher percentage than Arroyo does. 

A lot of the Heat problems are down to chemistry, coaching, effort issues. I don't buy that they don't have the right players.

And honestly they would have won a lot of these games if DWade hadn't sucked so much. DWade is a close to 50 percent shooter on his career, and he's getting the looks and free throws--he should be scoring at a higher clip than he is. Even as out of sync as everything is.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Brilliant visual breakdown of the Heat's effort problems:
http://www.youtube.com/user/heatbreakdown#p/a


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

Ron said:


> Plus you raise an interesting point...if the Warm had been successful to date, then you surely wouldn't see any bashing now, would you?


Honestly I don't really care, I just find it interesting that laker fans have so much vested in the failure of Lebron and the Heat.

But it's not my battle, I am a bulls fan.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

caseyrh said:


> Honestly I don't really care, I just find it interesting that laker fans have so much vested in the failure of Lebron and the Heat.
> 
> But it's not my battle, I am a bulls fan.


Fear mostly I think. A percentage of fans are telling themselves these weaknesses in order to play down the anxiety over what happens if the Heat figure things out.

Lakers fans know what they have in the Celtics, and I think for the most part feel they can beat the Celtics again if they need to. They've already taken out the Magic before. The Heat are the one unknown out there in the East for them. They don't know how they really match up, and until they do that anxiety will manifest as a hatred.

If the Lakers beat the Heat on christmas I think most Laker fans will move on from caring about the Heat, and start trying to minimilize the Celtics.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Wade County said:


> I'm sure some of you would still have found a way.


Then those who criticize a perfect Heat team at 17-0 or 16-1 or 15-2 would have lost all credibility.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

caseyrh said:


> Honestly I don't really care, I just find it interesting that laker fans have so much vested in the failure of Lebron and the Heat.
> 
> But it's not my battle, I am a bulls fan.


If you didn't care, why did you bring it up in the first place?

And your assumption is quite wrong. As Kobe said, the Heat is in the Eastern Conference. Lake Show won't even see them for any meaningful games this year.

We'll see what happens next year when (if?) they address their 1 and 5 issues.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Fear mostly I think. A percentage of fans are telling themselves these weaknesses in order to play down the anxiety over what happens if the Heat figure things out.
> 
> Lakers fans know what they have in the Celtics, and I think for the most part feel they can beat the Celtics again if they need to. They've already taken out the Magic before. The Heat are the one unknown out there in the East for them. They don't know how they really match up, and until they do that anxiety will manifest as a hatred.
> 
> If the Lakers beat the Heat on christmas I think most Laker fans will move on from caring about the Heat, and start trying to minimilize the Celtics.


The Xmas day game doesn't matter one way or the other because the Heat are not going to the Finals this year.

Given that LeBron wiped the floor up with the Lakers LAST Xmas, it wouldn't surprise me if he does it again.

If any Laker fan (or fan of any team, for that matter) feared the Heat before the season, then that fear has been completely replaced with amusement. After 18 games, they will try to avoid going .500 on Monday against those WaCkY WiZ! :laugh:


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Ron said:


> If any Laker fan (or fan of any team, for that matter) feared the Heat before the season, then that fear has been completely replaced with amusement. After 18 games, they will try to avoid going .500 on Monday against those WaCkY WiZ! :laugh:


Right I think eventually they'll get to a point where there won't be much hatred at all of the team, just because there's no reason to hate something irrellevent.

Of course right about then the Heat should be getting better. It will be really interesting to see where this team is in January.


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## EGarrett (Aug 12, 2002)

A great way to stop someone from winning, is to make them feel like they've already won. Be in awe of their team's talent, and crown them the champion before the season even begins. Done properly to immature or psychologically-weak players...their hunger and edge will melt away. Sometimes permanently.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

caseyrh said:


> Honestly I don't really care, I just find it interesting that laker fans have so much vested in the failure of Lebron and the Heat.
> 
> But it's not my battle, I am a bulls fan.





futuristxen said:


> Fear mostly I think. A percentage of fans are telling themselves these weaknesses in order to play down the anxiety over what happens if the Heat figure things out.
> 
> Lakers fans know what they have in the Celtics, and I think for the most part feel they can beat the Celtics again if they need to. They've already taken out the Magic before. The Heat are the one unknown out there in the East for them. They don't know how they really match up, and until they do that anxiety will manifest as a hatred.
> 
> If the Lakers beat the Heat on christmas I think most Laker fans will move on from caring about the Heat, and start trying to minimilize the Celtics.


wow - this is interesting to me - for the last 3 pages there's like one guy with a Laker avatar posting a correction over someone's poorly couched comparison of the Heat to a previous Laker squad and another posting a rather milquetoast comment about how the Heat are lacking at the 1 and 5 - well duh

and you guys have to write a thesis on why Laker fans are bashing the Heat

why cant Laker fans have an opinion on this subject without need for some kind of De Manian reading of their motives and intentions? - do you guys suffer a persecution complex or something? it would seem so 

by the way - the Heat deserve to be bashed - futuristxen, are you a Lakers fan? because that link to the Heat Breakdown showing the trainwreck that was Wade in the Pacers game, the lack of effort by wade and bron on defense, getting beat down the floor repeatedly, lazy passing, poor rebounding, poor positioning, poor decision making etc etc was a pretty severe indictment - maybe Coach Nick is a Lakers fan too? point being everyone, not just Lakers fans, are piling on

but you guys? even as you pile on yourselves? it's all about the Lakers fans? inferiority complex maybe a bit?


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

There are some posters on this board who just like to bait with one sentence...the best way to handle such posters is to expose them for what they really are and not engage them. Clearly, if you have someone coming out of left field to make an unsupported statement about Laker fans and just as quickly go back to the left field pavilion as soon as someone calls him on it, you have someone who doesn't really contribute much to the discussion.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/news/story?id=5862172

Word is they're questioning Spoles


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Right I think eventually they'll get to a point where there won't be much hatred at all of the team, just because there's no reason to hate something irrellevent.
> 
> Of course right about then the Heat should be getting better. It will be really interesting to see where this team is in January.


They should be getting much better. They have two cakewalks against Washington and Detroit coming up, before the showdown in Cleveland. I can't see them losing any of these games, but then again, given the fact that they had to come back after being down to a ****ty Philly team at home, anything is possible.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

According to the article up above Wade and Lebron are pouting because they got their feelings hurt by spo. That makes sense. What babies today's athlete is. And they want Pat Riley to coach them? HA!


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

futuristxen said:


> Fear mostly I think. A percentage of fans are telling themselves these weaknesses in order to play down the anxiety over what happens if the Heat figure things out.
> 
> Lakers fans know what they have in the Celtics, and I think for the most part feel they can beat the Celtics again if they need to. They've already taken out the Magic before. The Heat are the one unknown out there in the East for them. They don't know how they really match up, and until they do that anxiety will manifest as a hatred.
> 
> If the Lakers beat the Heat on christmas I think most Laker fans will move on from caring about the Heat, and start trying to minimilize the Celtics.


The only team LA fans really "fear" is the Boston Celtics. If they could rebound, they would currently be the NBA champions, and their roster has improved just like ours. Boston is the only team that I think the series could swing either way depending on health and Homecourt advantage. The Heat, even prior to their problems I thought will would roll in 5 or 6 games.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

For those trying to paint me as some Heat homer:



> Exhibit A was a recent shootaround in which Spoelstra told James that he had to get more serious. The source said Spoelstra called James out in front of the entire team, telling him, "I can't tell when you're serious."
> 
> "He's jumping on them," one source said. "If anything, he's been too tough on them. Everybody knows LeBron is playful and likes to joke around, but Spoelstra told him in front of the whole team that he has to get more serious. The players couldn't believe it. They feel like Spoelstra's not letting them be themselves."





> According to the sources, the Heat players believe Spoelstra's offensive strategies have been too simplistic. They feel like he is running nothing but pick-and-rolls and telling the Heat's secondary players to find open spots on the floor for catch-and-shoot jumpers.


Both things I would side with Spoelstra on. Kind of damning against Wade that he doesn't want Riley to come onto the bench...we talkin about practice?



> "They don't want to step on each other's toes," the person said. "There's no leader on the team. Somebody has to speak up and be the leader on the team. They can't be afraid to step on people's toes. They need a vocal leader who's going to make everybody accountable. I don't think it's on the coach. It's on the players."


What happened to all the "it's Wade's team" BS this summer?


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

One of those scenes in the tape future posted shows both Wade and LBJ nonchalantly playing absolutely no help defense whatsoever.

That's the coach's fault?


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

> According to the sources, the Heat players believe Spoelstra's offensive strategies have been too simplistic. They feel like he is running nothing but pick-and-rolls and telling the Heat's secondary players to find open spots on the floor for catch-and-shoot jumpers.


I think everyone saw this after the 2nd game. It's not that easy. Both Lebron and Wade are average to mediocre 20ft and out. I want to throw a banana peel under Wade's feet when I see him jacking up 3's as if he forgot he's a career 28% shooter out there. I'd like to see Wade playing off the ball more and doing more cutting and coming off screens since he's the better mid-range shooter. Rick Adelman would be perfect for this team.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

T-Mac is not impressed

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5862624


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

Ron said:


> There are some posters on this board who just like to bait with one sentence...the best way to handle such posters is to expose them for what they really are and not engage them. Clearly, if you have someone coming out of left field to make an unsupported statement about Laker fans and just as quickly go back to the left field pavilion as soon as someone calls him on it, you have someone who doesn't really contribute much to the discussion.


I'm just making an observation Ron. Personally I think the constant bashing of the Heat by mostly Laker fans is boring. It seems like every other thread on here is about the Heat and turns into Laker fans thumbing their noses at the heat. It also seems like you are the spearhead of it. Anyways I rarely even open these threads I just checked this one because it kept getting bumped, what I found on it is pretty much the same thing I see in every thread about the heat. So i Commented on it.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

caseyrh said:


> I'm just making an observation Ron. Personally I think the constant bashing of the Heat by mostly Laker fans is boring. It seems like every other thread on here is about the Heat and turns into Laker fans thumbing their noses at the heat. It also seems like you are the spearhead of it. Anyways I rarely even open these threads I just checked this one because it kept getting bumped, what I found on it is pretty much the same thing I see in every thread about the heat. So i Commented on it.


the thing is when you posted your 'observation' there had been virtually no Laker fans 'bashing the Heat' posts for like 3 pages - you just kind of pulled your 'observation' out of your rectum


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

e-monk said:


> the thing is when you posted your 'observation' there had been virtually no Laker fans 'bashing the Heat' posts for like 3 pages - you just kind of pulled your 'observation' out of your rectum


LOL. Ok...


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

e-monk said:


> the thing is when you posted your 'observation' *there had been virtually no Laker fans 'bashing the Heat' posts for like 3 pages *- you just kind of pulled your 'observation' out of your rectum


I'm sorry. I've been busy and posting little. I'll pick it up!


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Ron said:


> One of those scenes in the tape future posted shows both Wade and LBJ nonchalantly playing absolutely no help defense whatsoever.
> 
> That's the coach's fault?


It's the coach's fault that he's not getting effort out of him. Clearly neither Lebron or Wade is going to be a leader on this team because they respect each other too much. That means that the Head Coach has to be the leader because there is a pecking order there. But it doesn't seem like Spoelstra has the respect or fear of his players.

Seems like Riley does though.

If Riley doesn't want to coach they should go get Larry Brown if only for the hilarity that would ensue. That video says pretty much everything Heat fans have been saying in game threads.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> It's the coach's fault that he's not getting effort out of him.


:nonono:


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Get back to me when they can defend the one spot. Right now Marcus Banks could light them up.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> Get back to me when they can defend the one spot. Right now Marcus Banks could light them up.


:laugh:

Yeah, its funny, but its also true. :|


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

E.H. Munro said:


> Get back to me when they can defend the one spot. Right now Marcus Banks could light them up.


Marcus Banks will probably end up on this heat roster before the season is up...funnily enough


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I'm sure they're praying for a buyout as he'd be a 2000% improvement to the spot. Which is ****ing sad. But Arroyo, House, and Chalmers have all played like dung.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

The Heat are not good right now. Luckily for them, titles aren't won in November. What's funny is, this team could limp into the playoffs and still be a problem. Not too many teams would line up to play Miami in a 7 game series even as they're struggling. 

This team has some issues to address, but talent is the key ingredient to any championship team, and Miami has it. Everything else can be handled and developed in time. I know all of the Miami/LeBron haters want everyone to come in here and call the whole thing a failure already but that's just ridiculous. It's November. You can't call it a wash when it's still football season.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Spaceman Spiff said:


> T-Mac is not impressed
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5862624


TMac is still relevant?


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

E.H. Munro said:


> I'm sure they're praying for a buyout as he'd be a 2000% improvement to the spot. Which is ****ing sad. But Arroyo, House, and Chalmers have all played like dung.


Have you not watched Heat games!? Eddie House takes the final shots on this team.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Spaceman Spiff said:


> Have you not watched Heat games!? Eddie House takes the final shots on this team.


I think everyone knows that the Heat are a hot mess at the moment. They beat the bad teams and get beat by the good ones. But that's really not terribly shocking, a lot of good teams are still trying to find their feet this early in the year. Even the Lakers have a losing record against winning teams. The Celtics, Mavericks, Spurs, & Hornets are the four teams I can think of that have consistently beat winning teams this year. 

Of course, Miami's competition in the East tend to have good/really good point guards, which puts them at a gigantic disadvantage. I'm not even sure how they fix this long term. Banks would be a short-term patch. And not a very good one. In retrospect they probably should have kept their draft pick and tabbed Avery Bradley to be the PG. At least he can play some defense.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

We've been there with Marcus Banks. We aint going back.

We definitely need more than Arroyo at the position though. I'm not against giving Chalmers a final shot to see what he's got. If he flounders - back to the pine and cut your losses at the end of the year.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Who else are you going to get? Delonte West won't be on the market until this summer, and even then your star player probably wouldn't want him.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Looking at the 2011 FA list of PG's:

JJ Barea
Delonte West (as EH said, unlikely )
Anthony Carter 
TJ Ford
Acie Law
Earl Boykins
Sebastian Telfair
Marcus Banks
Willie Green
Jason Williams
Luther Head
Patrick Mills
Ronnie Price
Earl Watson

Yeah OK - we're gonna have to swing a trade :laugh:


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

****ing NBA reporters are now just trying to out TMZ each other and the Heat is their personal reality show.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Yeah, it's kinda sad really. Wish we could go back to focusing on the basketball, because there is some good ball being played around the league - and it's not in Miami.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

Pay Ton said:


> :nonono:


Yeah, if you need a coach to motivate you at this level, then you have a problem.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Game3525 said:


> Yeah, if you need a coach to motivate you at this level, then you have a problem.


I like my head coaches to be the primary motovaitors. Moreso than great system guys. That stuff is for assistants.

I like coaches like Doc Rivers, Phil Jackson, and Pat Riley who can orchestrate their team's moods like a symphony.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

The Heat need Phil Jackson.

Since that isn't going to happen the Heat are what they are. A team with superstars that lack chemistry throughout. 

The reason why the Celtic 3 won 66 and a ring in their first year was because of chemistry. Honestly, their "perceived" issues going into the season is not that different from what the Heat are facing now. People forget the criticisms about the Celtics bench. A young unproven Rondo and a clog at center Perkins. The thing about the Celtics team is the chemistry allowed their role players to get better. The Heat really just look like a 3 man show and nothing else maybe with the exception of Haslem. Even on the floor together Lebron, Wade, and Bosh are inconsistent at best with only flashes of what people thought they would be. If the Heat find some chemistry first starting with the big 3 then filtering down to the role players they will become what many people predicted. That is where coaching and leadership comes in. 

Doc was amazing at that in the big 3 first year and in the playoffs last year. Not sure if Spo has that in him. Adding Phil Jax would probably mean instant fix and championship. Honestly, they need to change their coach. Yes Lebron, Bosh, and Wade all have big egos yada yada...that is why they need a coach who can curb all that BS and make them focus on playing great team basketball. Riley needs to come down but he is hard on his players which players today don't like but he does one thing very well and that is he commands instant respect. 

Also, I must say I am not that surprise although I didn't think they would look this bad. I didn't jump on the 82-0 bandwagon. Seen it before with the '04 Lakers who had a much better team IMO. Prime Shaq and Kobe. Payton and Malone were old but still coming off all-star level seasons. Phil Jax and an established core of role players. But that team was pure soap opera that even Phil Jax couldn't solve although they probably would have won 65 and the championship if Malone didn't get injured. I can't say the same from what I see with the Heat which right now look like a 50 win second round exit team at best. On the side note, the Cavs are 7-9. Granted they have played against less than stellar teams but I guess Lebron's support isn't THAT bad in Cleveland after all.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

futuristxen said:


> I like my head coaches to be the primary motovaitors. Moreso than great system guys. That stuff is for assistants.
> 
> I like coaches like Doc Rivers, Phil Jackson, and Pat Riley who can orchestrate their team's moods like a symphony.


Yes, having a good motivator as a coach helps, but still after the backlash the Heat and Lebron had this offseason, they really shouldn't need a coach to have them fired up for this season.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Gilgamesh said:


> The Heat need Phil Jackson.
> 
> Since that isn't going to happen the Heat are what they are. A team with superstars that lack chemistry throughout.
> 
> ...


the thing about Doc and the big three is that he didnt need to get them motivated - they did that all by themselves and were focused on one goal, one mission - now of course they were a better fit style-wise with scoring range in 3 different complementary levels and they were far more mature

but in the end it's that last bit that seems to be the problem - maturity

and Im not sure PJ could fix that either - he's always had a driven star who didnt need to motivation - Mike didnt need a coach to get him to work - Kobe doesnt either - Fatty? well Fatty really was just that much better than everyone but of course that's why Fatty's Lakers were always so frustrating to watch occasionally losing to inferior teams or at least letting inferior teams hang around because they were dogging it in the regular season


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

One thing that people tend to gloss over about Boston's big three is that all three guys had been friends since high school. When Boston acquired Garnett's best friend (Allen) it cemented his decision, and because the three went back fifteen years it was relatively easy for them to agree among themselves how to divvy up responsibilities. 

They actually had more problems last year because Rondo was being petulant and wanted recognition, which accounted for a lot of their regular season struggles (combined with their being on cruise control waiting for the playoffs). Miami's big three didn't have that sort of relationship, and Riley essentially used the entire budget on the three of them, which made it tougher for him to fill out the roster. And he forgot to find a PG that could play _any_ defense. That one's going to cost them for some time.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

E.H. Munro said:


> One thing that people tend to gloss over about Boston's big three is that all three guys had been friends since high school. When Boston acquired Garnett's best friend (Allen) it cemented his decision, and because the three went back fifteen years it was relatively easy for them to agree among themselves how to divvy up responsibilities.
> 
> They actually had more problems last year because Rondo was being petulant and wanted recognition, which accounted for a lot of their regular season struggles (combined with their being on cruise control waiting for the playoffs). Miami's big three didn't have that sort of relationship, and Riley essentially used the entire budget on the three of them, which made it tougher for him to fill out the roster. And he forgot to find a PG that could play _any_ defense. That one's going to cost them for some time.


this is true because I dont see Joel Anthony blossoming into a gritty JYD quality post defender like Perkins any time soon nor do I see Chalmers-Arroyo-House turning into Rondo

the Celtics big 3 fit together better, had better supporting role players, better chemistry and barely any need for a coach because they were more driven and more mature

and btw no one was worried about offense on that team - they focused on being the best defensive squad in the league and take note Heat players that seemed to work out pretty well for them


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

*Heat can't afford to coddle LeBron James*

Excellent article summarizing what happened in Cleveland and what must not happen in Miami.

*Heat can't afford to coddle LeBron James*


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I really think Woj dislikes the Heat/Lebron


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

HB said:


> I really think Woj dislikes the Heat/Lebron


there is no doubt he dislikes Lebron. But his articles are interesting to read.http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-lebronspoelstra112910


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

E.H. Munro said:


> One thing that people tend to gloss over about Boston's big three is that all three guys had been friends since high school. When Boston acquired Garnett's best friend (Allen) it cemented his decision, and because the three went back fifteen years it was relatively easy for them to agree among themselves how to divvy up responsibilities.


Boston is lucky to have KG. He didn't want to play w/ Pierce. He actually turned them down the 1st time, but only after they got SuperRay, did he decide that he wanted to go ahead and form a super team to go chase a ring. 

Unlike Queen James and KaBosh, who have no loyalty and just want to bully the league(out of laziness?). The motivations are wrong. LeBron has indirectly exposed himself as a bit of a mental midget.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

O2K said:


> there is no doubt he dislikes Lebron. But his articles are interesting to read.http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-lebronspoelstra112910


And I just remembered he dislikes Calipari and World Wide Wes too. 
Haha it all makes sense now.


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## 36 Karat (Nov 10, 2005)

This thread makes it apparent just how individualistic our American society is. It's easy to point the finger at LeBron, I just saw this poll on ESPN where 47% of those who voted place the Heats' recent relative failure on him. I realize it gives us discussion but there's many more hot sports topics people overlook when ranting about a system that needs time to gather steam.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

O2K said:


> there is no doubt he dislikes Lebron. But his articles are interesting to read.http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-lebronspoelstra112910


The article was overdone but I agree with the gist of it...LeBron certainly needs to grow up, and Wade has shown once again he is lacking in leadership quotient.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Blu said:


> Boston is lucky to have KG. He didn't want to play w/ Pierce. He actually turned them down the 1st time, but only after they got SuperRay, did he decide that he wanted to go ahead and form a super team to go chase a ring.


Stop making crap up. He had no problems with Pierce, the two had been friends for years. The player he _didn't_ want to play with was Wally Szczerbiak Szczuperstar; the original trade was Jefferson, #5 and filler to match the salaries (which included a healthy selection of their roleplayers), and didn't involve Szczerbiak because Minnesota flat out refused to take him back. 

Garnett wanted to play for a contender and he didn't think that he, Pierce and flotsam would be enough to win a title. And because of Szczerbiak's salary they wouldn't have been able to fill out the roster. Once Szczerbiak had been replaced by his best friend he refused a trade to any other team, which is how Minnesota ended up with just Jefferson for Garnett.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

That coddling article is ****ing idiotic. For one thing, aren't the reports that SEVERAL Heat players are pissed about Spo's methods? Several means more than one, last I looked. You can bet that Wade and Bosh are two of them. LeBron James is one player. So just because LEBRON happens to be one of the people irritated with Spo's system means that Miami should keep Spo aboard, huh? Even if over half the team hates him? If Spo ends up losing the team, which appears inevitable due to what seems like a subpar system and him lacking the psychological skills of Jackson, Riley, Popovich, Rivers and company, Miami should keep him aboard anyway? Yeah, that'll show LeBron. Give me a ****ing break, you ESPN retards. Lay off the fluff for just five seconds, please. It's all about screwing with LeBron, not about what's best for the team, I guess.

You know what, let's go with the whole 'LeBron was coddled' notion. I seem to recall the Cavs winning 127 games in his final two seasons there, despite having an absolute joke of a supporting cast (screwing them at playoff time). Yeah, things were soooooo bad in Cleveland when LeBron was 'coddled'. The Cavs didn't win, because they coddled LeBron. LeBron ultimately left for a somewhat competent franchise, because the Cavs coddled him. Horrific team management decisions regarding personnel had NOTHING to do with it. Brilliant.

And it doesn't matter what level you're at, you need motivation. It's only human nature to lose just a bit of motivation after and have one of the best trios in the history of the game, especially when you're all in the first year of six year deals with a ton of money coming your way and are virtually guaranteed to annually be a top 2 team in the league once all the kinks are worked out. No one's above the need for motivation. Stop chugging the 'be men' baby formula.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

36 Karat said:


> This thread makes it apparent just how individualistic our American society is. It's easy to point the finger at LeBron, I just saw this poll on ESPN where 47% of those who voted place the Heats' recent relative failure on him. I realize it gives us discussion but there's many more hot sports topics people overlook when ranting about a system that needs time to gather steam.


Ding ding ding.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Lol at many more hot sports topics....tell ESPN to focus on something else. I dont feel sorry for them, they thought they were going to be rockstars. Reality has set in, and now its 'them against the world'....**** outta here. When some of us were saying preseason that it was overkill the way the media was fawning over them, where were this individualistic type comments?


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

E.H. Munro said:


> Stop making crap up. He had no problems with Pierce, the two had been friends for years.


:2ti: oh ok.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Blu said:


> I have no idea what I'm talking about. Pippen2k forever!


Well, I certainly can't argue with that.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I don't think friendship had that much to do with KG's decision. I agree that it did help but ultimately KG made that decision because Boston gave him the best chance to get a ring. If KG were to make a decision due to sentimental reasons then he would never have left the Wolves in the first place. He loved the city and was loyal to that organization.

This applies to Lebron as well. Even though he is good friends with Wade and Bosh he made that decision because he truly believed that the 3 of them together gives him the best chance to win a ring.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> I don't think friendship had that much to do with KG's decision. I agree that it did help but ultimately KG made that decision because Boston gave him the best chance to get a ring. If KG were to make a decision due to sentimental reasons then he would never have left the Wolves in the first place. He loved the city and was loyal to that organization.


The 'Wolves ended it when they agreed to trade him to Boston without consulting him. He refused the trade because the Celtics would still have had Szczerbiak and no way to fill out the roster. He informed Minnesota at that point that he would only accept a trade to a contender. But once Boston acquired his best friend, they were a contender. 

My point, initially, before another of the Pierce haters jumped in, was that the fact that Allen was Garnett's best friend, and he and Pierce had been friends since high school, made it real easy for all three guys to get on the same page and hit the ground running. That's something that Miami's big three lacked.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

He could also have gone to the Nets but they didn't have the pieces. KG and Vince are or were good friends, and yes it goes back to high school too.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

KG, Paul and Ray's skillsets don't overlap like Wade LeBron and Bosh's. That's about as simple as it is for me all that best friends from back in the day doesn't mean anything.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

HB said:


> He could also have gone to the Nets but they didn't have the pieces. KG and Vince are or were good friends, and yes it goes back to high school too.


Right, and that's the point, had he ended up there it would have been easy for the Nets to build around three guys with a long personal history. It was a whole lot easier for Garnett to sacrifice his game for Ray than it is for Bosh to sacrifice his for a couple of guys that he doesn't have that sort of history with.



Dre™;6422319 said:


> KG, Paul and Ray's skillsets don't overlap like Wade LeBron and Bosh's. That's about as simple as it is for me all that best friends from back in the day doesn't mean anything.


Pierce & Ray's roles' overlap. I guess you're forgetting that some people were assuring everyone that the 2008 Celtics wouldn't win because they'd need time to gel. But it was a whole lot easier for three friends to gel. Which is why everyone was shocked back in 2008 how well they worked from the getgo.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

E.H. Munro said:


> *Pierce & Ray's roles' overlap.* I guess you're forgetting that some people were assuring everyone that the 2008 Celtics wouldn't win because they'd need time to gel. But it was a whole lot easier for three friends to gel. Which is why everyone was shocked back in 2008 how well they worked from the getgo.


Not at all really, compared to Wade and LeBron. They're both top 5 I believe in all-time usage. They both like to break guys down at the wing or top of the key for a jumper or penetration, and neither is that good at moving off the ball unless you're talking a quick path to a dunk. 

Pierce and Ray don't have the issue where one is just standing around watching the other, and even in their prime they couldn't. They both could always move without the ball for the catch and shoot, Ray Allen does way less facilitating then Pierce does, maybe at a time (on previous teams) he did more but he was able to seamlessly turn into Reggie Miller pretty much and allow Pierce to be more in control before Rondo's emergence. 

I don't think there's really a comparision between Pierce/Allen and LeBron/Wade. LeBron and Wade are the same player. Pierce and Allen are both used to being primary scorers, but their specific roles, are pretty apparent and they don't clash. It's kind of funny you would take them both being lead guards at face value and assume they overlap. If they overlap how come the Celtics have never had a problem with a stagnant offense?

And who is "everyone", that's not a qualifier for anything because "everyone" will just go with whatever ESPN says. "Everyone" will still probably tell you Kobe's a selfish player. People saw three stars and immediately they thought about the Lakers who had just broken up, when in reality the three fit their roles in the system seamlessly.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> I don't think friendship had that much to do with KG's decision. I agree that it did help but ultimately KG made that decision because Boston gave him the best chance to get a ring. If KG were to make a decision due to sentimental reasons then he would never have left the Wolves in the first place. He loved the city and was loyal to that organization.
> 
> This applies to Lebron as well. Even though he is good friends with Wade and Bosh he made that decision because he truly believed that the 3 of them together gives him the best chance to win a ring.


i don't know of the veracity of woj's statement, but he made it seem that lebron didn't want to shoulder the responsibility of a franchise winning. it was too much to bear for him, which was why he left cleveland and didn't even consider the knicks.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

HB said:


> Lol at many more hot sports topics....tell ESPN to focus on something else. I dont feel sorry for them, they thought they were going to be rockstars. Reality has set in, and now its 'them against the world'....**** outta here. When some of us were saying preseason that it was overkill the way the media was fawning over them, where were this individualistic type comments?


They made their bed and they have to deal with the microscope they will be under for the rest of the season and longer. The criticisms will be too harsh when they're down and the praise will be overdone when they're up. 

Truth is, media doesn't care regardless of whether they fail or succeed, because the Heat have just as many (probably more) rooting against them as they do for them. So Miami losing draws attention just like Miami winning.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Dre™ said:


> Not at all really, compared to Wade and LeBron. They're both top 5 I believe in all-time usage. They both like to break guys down at the wing or top of the key for a jumper or penetration, and neither is that good at moving off the ball unless you're talking a quick path to a dunk.


While forgotten post-2008, Pierce regularly racked up usage rates of 30+ up to that point in his career, Ray was traditionally in the 27-30 range. And Ray was used to being the primary scorer, for his entire career. One of the things he's struggled with in Boston is getting enough shots within games to get his rhythm. But, again, in interview after interview, all three players have said that it was easier for them to work these things out because of their personal history. 



Dre™ said:


> If they overlap how come the Celtics have never had a problem with a stagnant offense?


It sort of helps when your head coach is good at managing egos and is also one of the more creative offensive coaches in the game. Miami is still running all the same plays as last year, despite the new personnel. The coach hasn't quite figured out what to do with them and doesn't have the rapport that Doc does with players to help him manage the egos. Hence Miami's mess.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

And one more thing per the Celtics they were all at a more desperate place for a title than any of the big 3. Wade has his and Bron and Bosh are still very young.

Egos and petty stuff gets checked at the door when everyone is 30+ and wants a ring.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

E.H. Munro said:


> While forgotten post-2008, Pierce regularly racked up usage rates of 30+ up to that point in his career, Ray was traditionally in the 27-30 range. And Ray was used to being the primary scorer, for his entire career. One of the things he's struggled with in Boston is getting enough shots within games to get his rhythm. But, again, in interview after interview, all three players have said that it was easier for them to work these things out because of their personal history.
> 
> 
> 
> It sort of helps when your head coach is good at managing egos and is also one of the more creative offensive coaches in the game. Miami is still running all the same plays as last year, despite the new personnel. The coach hasn't quite figured out what to do with them and doesn't have the rapport that Doc does with players to help him manage the egos. Hence Miami's mess.


in terms of the overlap question I think it cant be overstated that both Pierce and especially Allen are accurate at distance - so even if they are both out on the range the effect will still be a stretched defense having to react to offensive pressure

add to that the effectiveness of Pierce in mid-range and Garnett's decent postgame and Allen's ability to catch and shoot and it's a real nice mix and even if there is a little overlap in terms of guys not getting the touches they're used to at least their style of play meshes - and like you said they figured it out

which with the heat not so much any of those things - Lebron is just ok outside and Wade is wretched - in effect you have three guys who all want to be in roughly the same area to trigger their scoring attack


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Exactly, that's what I'm saying.


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## simply_amazing (Aug 23, 2009)

Great point: none of the Heat "overrated three" work effectively mid range. 

On top of that, none of them move well without the ball. Scratch that, none of them move without the ball, period. 

Ray Allen runs around and rolls off picks like a maniac. Garnett makes himself useful scavenging for offensive rebounds. 

There is basically no comparison between the C's and Heat. In any way. 

The C's are a team. The Heat are a train-wreck. 



e-monk said:


> in terms of the overlap question I think it cant be overstated that both Pierce and especially Allen are accurate at distance - so even if they are both out on the range the effect will still be a stretched defense having to react to offensive pressure
> 
> add to that the effectiveness of Pierce in mid-range and Garnett's decent postgame and Allen's ability to catch and shoot and it's a real nice mix and even if there is a little overlap in terms of guys not getting the touches they're used to at least their style of play meshes - and like you said they figured it out
> 
> which with the heat not so much any of those things - Lebron is just ok outside and Wade is wretched - in effect you have three guys who all want to be in roughly the same area to trigger their scoring attack


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

this thread delights me to no end.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

What's interesting to me is how quickly that "Wade's team" thing evaporated and noone wants to talk about it. If we got to bumping a lot of people would be looking silly..if you haven't been paying attention LeBron is trying to pull a power move on Spoelstra and Wade's playing both sides of the fence at best. It's pretty clear this team will go as LeBron goes. 

Thing is I don't know if he's ready for it yet, I think Riley is trying to break that diva out of him and flip his mindset, the light will hit him at some point, it always does, but will it happen on time like Kobe or too late like Iverson?

They need a stabilizing vet, I think Chauncey did wonders for Denver while he was still good enough to keep their respect, if they could find a guy like that maybe things would be better.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Whoever's team it is, they sure kicked the **** out of the Pistons tonight.

At least they win the games they are supposed to win. Not like the Lakers...but I digress.


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## simply_amazing (Aug 23, 2009)

News flash: Detroit and Washington are a combined 2W and 18L on the road.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

ESPN imploded at the sights of the Cheat beating two teams at home who couldn't beat Duke on the road.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Skip Bayless, Jason Whitlock, Bill Simmons and their like have introduced this meme that Lebron doesn't have "killer instinct", doesn't have the "assassin's gene"...

But Lebron pretty much took the Cavs franchise back behind the shed and put a bullet through it's brain...

To go into that atmosphere with that many people rooting against you, and then to have the arrogance and self-belief to toss chalk in their faces, stand repeatedly right inside their bench, laugh at the boos, knocking in shot after shot while setting a record for the court in the 3rd quarter...I don't care who you are but that was COLD.

And from the looks of it on the internet that probably ended the Cavs fanbase for a bit, because he so thoroughly embarrassed that team that I see some swearing off the team and the NBA as a whole. Attendence is probably going to go back to pre-lebron levels. Which how long will Gilbert keep the team there while he's losing money? So you have to wonder if eventually he just moves the team even with his stakes in the local casinos.

Sort of beside the point, yeah. But watching last night was like those old Jordan-Cavs regular season games when I was a kid where the whole stadium would be booing him even as he ripped their heart out and embarrassed their team.

We need to see more of this Lebron in the playoffs. We've seen flashes against the Pistons, Hawks, and to some extent the Magic even in a losing effort. But not against the celtics. Not in an NBA finals situation. But it is obviously within him to do this type of thing. He kind of does it in his own way as well. With laughter, smiling, and jokes...but even the whole while he's driving you crazy.

Easily the best game I've seen Lebron play in what...8 or 9 months?


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Guess I'm not surprised the Heat are starting to play better. Part of it is their schedule (last 3 games were vs. Washington, Detroit, & Cleveland), but really things couldn't gone much worse to start the season so it's only up from there. We're kidding ourselves if we think they won't be a threat (whatever that means) in the post-season.

An interesting trend we're seeing is, they really put the beat down on the crappy unorganized teams, especially ones with a weak frontcourt and no penetrating threat. Cleveland is a prime example of that.

A team like Boston is the complete opposite...well organized (veterans), a quick as heck PG, and a collosal frontcourt. I think Chicago could give them problems for that same reason, though perhaps not as much as Boston.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

Cleveland fans showed me how clueless they were when they were yelling "Scottie Pippen" to LeBron James.

Really?!? That is supposed to be a taunt? Calling LeBron a perennial all-NBA player and a first-ballot hall of famer was supposed to have been an INSULT?!?

Not "Quitness," not "LeQuitter," not "The Lyin' King." Hell, I would have laughed if they started calling him "Mike James." 

But "Scottie Pippen?!?" The Pippen chant shows how much Cleveland knows about basketball. Maybe that franchise should be relocated to Seattle.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

LeBron needed this. He hadn't looked that loose all season...that said they've played three OK at best teams, let's see how they fare on their next challenge. 

And stop being basketball nerds for a minute, you guys know exactly what Cleveland meant with the Pippen chants. Pippen was a great player, but let's just be 100 when it comes to general fans history looks at the guy as a sidekick. A great one, one that could've stood on his own, and did for a time, but that's ultimately what he was, MJ's sidekick, so you *know* what they meant. Don't try to turn your nose up and act like that's the most ridiculous notion you've ever heard. Scottie Pippen is a little more juicy than Toni Kukoc (nh).

People on here love to approach a situation where you have 100 reasons to blame a person, or in this case city, for being idiots, then they start reaching.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

For all of the Heat troubles they are a Gay miss, and Paul Milsap not going T-Mac from having a slightly better record than the Lakers.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

futuristxen said:


> For all of the Heat troubles they are a Gay miss, and Paul Milsap not going T-Mac from having a slightly better record than the Lakers.


Your acting like LA hasn't had their fair share of blown games like against the Suns and Nuggets.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Game3525 said:


> Your acting like LA hasn't had their fair share of blown games like against the Suns and Nuggets.


No, I'm taking that into account, and comparing that to this. Both teams could/should be better than their record.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Actually the Heat are worse than their record, because all of their wins are against bad teams and all of their losses are against good teams. If they were better than their record it'd be the other way around. Plus you don't find many bad teams in June.


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## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

futuristxen said:


> For all of the Heat troubles they are a Gay miss, and Paul Milsap not going T-Mac from having a slightly better record than the Lakers.


A lot of that has to do with the fact that the Lakers have been playing poorly of late.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Diable said:


> Actually the Heat are worse than their record, because all of their wins are against bad teams and all of their losses are against good teams. If they were better than their record it'd be the other way around. Plus you don't find many bad teams in June.


Actually they are better than their record because of point differential. They have the highest point differential in the east I believe. Usually that's a better indicator of greatness than wins and losses against good teams. at least according to this:
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/2047/are-heat-better-than-their-12-8-record

"In the NBA, dominating good teams is clearly the best indicator of postseason success. Teams that had more regular-season dominations (big wins over good teams) won 64.8% of their "final four" series, including 73.3% of their Finals matchups. But the second-most predictive attribute of "final four" success was having more stomps -- that is, destroying the league's weaker teams. And having more stomps was actually a better indicator of success than having more guts (close wins against good teams), just like [Aaron] Schatz found in football. 

In other words, it looks like this criticism of Miami has no basis in reality. And in fact, their inability to close the deal against good opponents actually appears to say less about their chances of a deep playoff run than their ability to manhandle poor teams."

So to summarize the best indicators of a good team:
1. Dominating good teams
2. Dominating bad teams
3. Close wins over good teams

Stomps>>Guts


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

kbdullah said:


> A lot of that has to do with the fact that the Lakers have been playing poorly of late.


Same with the Heat. I think they even both lost to some of the same teams, no? 

The important thing here though is that the Lakers have a ring so we know what they are. Heat don't, so we don't. But it's still interesting that even the best team in the league can stumble early.


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## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

futuristxen said:


> Actually they are better than their record because of point differential. They have the highest point differential in the east I believe. Usually that's a better indicator of greatness than wins and losses against good teams. at least according to this:
> http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/2047/are-heat-better-than-their-12-8-record
> 
> "In the NBA, dominating good teams is clearly the best indicator of postseason success. Teams that had more regular-season dominations (big wins over good teams) won 64.8% of their "final four" series, including 73.3% of their Finals matchups. But the second-most predictive attribute of "final four" success was having more stomps -- that is, destroying the league's weaker teams. And having more stomps was actually a better indicator of success than having more guts (close wins against good teams), just like [Aaron] Schatz found in football.
> ...


wait but haven't the Heat been stomped by several good teams? So aren't all those good teams better than they are? Does this formula take into account really bad losses to good teams? It seems to only look at wins.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

kbdullah said:


> wait but haven't the Heat been stomped by several good teams?


The only teams that have beaten the Heat by more than 10 points are the Pacers/Mavericks. So...no. And the Mavericks were only barely over 10 points(11).

The only team that has stomped the Heat like the Heat have stomped these bad teams is the Pacers.


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## 29380 (Feb 23, 2009)




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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

Dre™;6425181 said:


> And stop being basketball nerds for a minute, you guys know exactly what Cleveland meant with the Pippen chants. Pippen was a great player, but let's just be 100 when it comes to general fans history looks at the guy as a sidekick. A great one, one that could've stood on his own, and did for a time, but that's ultimately what he was, MJ's sidekick, so you *know* what they meant.


Even the most casual basketball fan regards Scottie Pippen as the perennial all-star he was during his prime. If anything, Pippen tends to get overrated a bit by casual fans -- some people will argue he was on the Charles Barkley/Hakeem Olajuwon/Karl Malone/David Robinson level, if not just behind Michael Jordan.

I know that is unreasonable by today's standards where some people hate to think, but the point is no one with more than cursory knowledge of the NBA looks at calling someone "Scottie Pippen" as insulting. 

What's next? They're gonna get pissed off at LeBron James the next time he plays in Cleveland and start chanting "James Worthy?" 

Maybe they'll REALLY get pissed off and call him "Kevin McHale" or "Robert Parish." 

Or they'll Google "past NBA champions" on the Internet are start calling him "Tommy Heinsohn" or "Dave DeBusschere" or "John Havlicek." 

After all, these guys fit into that same bag as Pippen -- perennial all-stars and eventual hall of famers who played on championship teams with other elite players. 

No wonder LeBron left there.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

futuristxen said:


> Same with the Heat. I think they even both lost to some of the same teams, no?
> 
> The important thing here though is that the Lakers have a ring so we know what they are. Heat don't, so we don't. But it's still interesting that even the best team in the league can stumble early.


and of course the fact that the Lakers are a little beat up - Pau's got a hammy problem and PJ has been over-playing him and Odom - they're suddenly thin in the middle with Ratliff down and Bynum still on the mend etc

now you can say the Heat lost Haslem but last I heard he's not coming back and none of the principles is injured so this is who they are - they'll slowly start to mesh and put it together, Miller will help some offensively if just by stretching defenses but come playoff time they will still have holes at the 1 and 5 and be vulnerable to teams like the Celtics, Magic, Lakers or Spurs (or let's say something really strange happens, The Jazz)


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