# OT: The "Fred Meyer" Of Kobe Discussion - PLEASE Keep It Here!



## Speed

*A decision has been made in the Kobe case!!!*

The victim's family has been told of the decision. Now we find out at 2pm PT/5 pm ET


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## Blazer Ringbearer

Geez, I didn't realize the penalties were that stiff!

Does anyone think he could actually serve serious time? I can't stand the guy and all, but that's gotta suck...

Granted if he did anything serious, he would deserve it.


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## MJG

A friend told me the penalties would be harsh, but I didn't think that harsh. It's still almost impossible to think he'll actually be spending any time in jail. However, if he did do something, then he obviously deserves whatever sentence they give him.


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## Reep

> Bryant is accused of felony sexual assault, stemming from allegations that when he checked into the Lodge & Spa at Cordillera, on June 30, he or someone in his entourage summoned a hotel worker to his room and he sexually assaulted her. The 19-year-old Eagle County woman reported it to around noon the next day, July 1.


Wow. If that is the accusation and they have any physical evidence (which it sounds like they might) then this could be really serious. I hope it is not, but if Kobe did something like this, then I hope he goes down for the count. It should be no different for him than for anyone else.


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## Terrible

If this goes down, the Lakers are in big trouble.


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## Masbee

Come on.

Unless they have witnesses or videotape of an actual sexual assault, it will boil down to a he-said, she-said, jury trial.

All Kobe has to do is admit to consensual sex (adultery) to explain the physical evidence. Kobe has no past legal history, and will make a very credible witness if he takes the stand.

His high priced lawyers will do all they can to stack the jury with the right personalities. And they will paint the girl as a celebrity obsessed, fame seeking, tramp. There should more than enough doubt about the charges.

I can't see a jury convicting Kobe in this scenario. Though the process will be painful for all parties concerned.......except the attorneys involved - who will get to use this super high profile case to launch very lucrative career opportunities.

Kobe will not go to jail.

However, if he is charged today with a felony and goes through a public trial, and has to admit to adultery, he will suffer devastating losses to his prestige, image, marketability, family relations, etc. 

The NBA would react to this too. He would go from being one of the anointed of the NBA, to that second tier of talented "other players": Chris Webber, Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury, Ray Allen, Rasheed Wallace. Of course Kobe stands apart because of the championship rings, but he wouldn't be the no. 1 guy anymore. The NBA would jump all over LeBron, assuming he puts up the stats. And they will hype guys like KG, Dirk, McGrady, Pierce as their exciting young stars over Kobe. And they will try hard to make the solid games and squeaky clean images of Duncan and Yao be the image of the NBA over the troubles of Kobe, the mouth of Shaq and the street cred of AI, not to mention the troubles with many lesser players.

You know, if the NBA promoted teams, instead of players, they wouldn’t have such difficulty with trying to match their hype focus with their most marketable personalities. KG is probably the finest talent/personality/image combo the NBA has, but because he is stuck in a small market, and doesn’t go deep in the playoffs, the punch is lost. If there were a conspiracy in the NBA, KG would be in New York.


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## Yega1979

Another option....they may settle out of court and the girl and her children will be set for life.


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## cimalee

I wanna see what this girl looks like


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## Speed

the dude will be in jail for 10 years


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## buckster

*Even if charges are filed...*

...they still have to be proven.

Let the law of the land take its course - Kobe is entitled to be treated as an innocent man till then.

Nevertheless, the damage to his reputation may be irrepairable. Hope this is a warning to other ball-players and everyone else!

- Buckster


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## Blazer Ringbearer

They can't settle out of court as this would be a criminal trial...

Settling would mean a plea bargain where Kobe entered a guilty plea and got a reduced sentence. If any jail time were involved, no way Kobe does that...


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## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Masbee</b>!
> Come on.
> 
> Unless they have witnesses or videotape of an actual sexual assault, it will boil down to a he-said, she-said, jury trial.


According to rumors on the Laker board, the police have a recorded cell phone call from Kobe to the victim where he basicly admits what he did. If that and the other rumors turn out to be true that... 1. there were noise complaints from other hotel guests that a woman was screaming in his room 2. she checked into the hospitol with bruises and Clinton-esk DNA evidence on her clothing... and her end of the she said he said will probably carry a lot of weight with the jury made up of her community.

STOMP


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## Paxil

Not sure they can settle out of court Yega... it isn't a civil case. The DA and then a judge get to decide his fate. Without cooperation from the alleged victim it might be pretty tough getting a conviction though. If a large sum of money appeared in the alleged victims family and she changed her tune, it would even look worse for Kobe, and he could still be prosecuted, but likely with some more charges thrown on top. 

Money is a very powerful thing... but he is in a tricky situation if he is charged. The DA already knows the evidence in the case, and also has a good idea of how the defense will counter it, and if he decides to press charges it is because he thinks that even so, there is a likelihood of successful prosecution.


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## INDY

> Originally posted by <b>Yega1979</b>!
> Another option....they may settle out of court and the girl and her children will be set for life.


I read that criminal cases can not be settled out of court. Only civil cases can. 

Apparently she has had the chance to drop the charges, but refused to do so. It sounds as if she is willing to go all the way with this.


Once he has been charged with with a crime such as this one, it cannot be dropped by the accusing party. She can refuse to testify or cooperate, but she can't drop the charges. Only the DA can drop the charges.

Someone tell me if they know otherwise.


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## Public Defender

> Originally posted by <b>Masbee</b>!
> Come on.
> 
> Unless they have witnesses or videotape of an actual sexual assault, it will boil down to a he-said, she-said, jury trial.
> 
> All Kobe has to do is admit to consensual sex (adultery) to explain the physical evidence. Kobe has no past legal history, and will make a very credible witness if he takes the stand.


Oh, Kobe will take the stand. It'd look mighty bad to the jury if he didn't. 

Plus, it will only be his word against hers if there's no physical evidence other than DNA. If there's physical evidence of bruising, broken fingernails, scrapes, etc. then the jury will have to ask an explanation for those injuries other than a rape/sexual assault. I seriously doubt a jury will convict Bryant - it's hard to convict celebrities, and it's hard to prove a rape charge... doing both is going to be very hard for the state of Colorado. If he's guilty, though, I hope they make an example of him... celebrity status should not be protection. I'd feel for his kid, though.


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## Reep

> Originally posted by <b>Blazer Ringbearer</b>!
> They can't settle out of court as this would be a criminal trial...
> 
> Settling would mean a plea bargain where Kobe entered a guilty plea and got a reduced sentence. If any jail time were involved, no way Kobe does that...


BR's right on this one. No civil suit has been filed, and the district attorney in this case has full discretion to take the case on his own. 

If it comes down to a he said she said, then you have a victim with a clean background and no direct financial interest in the case against the accused who has a huge financial interest, as well as other reasons to deny the act. In rural Colorado, I don't think Kobe's Sprite commercials are going to help him.


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## Masbee

> Originally posted by <b>STOMP</b>!
> 
> 
> According to rumors on the Laker board, the police have a recorded cell phone call from Kobe to the victim where he basicly admits what he did. If that and the other rumors turn out to be true that... 1. there were noise complaints from other hotel guests that a woman was screaming in his room 2. she checked into the hospitol with bruises and Clinton-esk DNA evidence on her clothing... and her end of the she said he said will probably carry a lot of weight with the jury made up of her community.
> 
> STOMP


I stand by my original post. The rumors are that Kobe in the phone call admitted to having sex with her, and claiming he thought it was consensual. No problem there.

The DNA evidence is meaningless if Kobe admits to sexual relations.

The bruises are a different issue. Depending on their severity and placement, they may or may not cause a big problem for Kobe. But even fresh bruises can be minimized, if not eliminated as a "smoking gun" by a great defense team.

It will still boil down to a he-said, she-said jury trial. And why do you think a jury in "her" community will be more likely to believe her? Could be the exact opposite. Half the jury could hate her for being a promiscous slut and bringing shame to their town. It still comes down to reasonable doubt. There should be plenty of that.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Masbee</b>!
> Come on.
> 
> Unless they have witnesses or videotape of an actual sexual assault, it will boil down to a he-said, she-said, jury trial.


The rumour on the Lakers board was that authorities recorded a conversation between Bryant and a friend or member of his enterouge, essentially admitting that he did it.

If true, that would be rather damning.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Masbee</b>!
> I stand by my original post. The rumors are that Kobe in the phone call admitted to having sex with her, and claiming he thought it was consensual. No problem there.


I was under the impression that the rumour was he admitted to assulting the girl.

If he all he said was, "Yeah, I had sex with her," then I agree it won't hurt him much.


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## STOMP

Masbee- How come she was reportedly screaming waking up guests in other rooms. No means no, and she seems to be contending that it was anything but consensual. The bruises would indicate that as well.

If she was screaming for him to stop to the point where she was waking up other hotel guests (and then left immediately in the middle of the night to go to the emergency room), do you think that the supposive call from Kobe was something other then, "yeah baby that was great." I bet it was more of concern over what the hysterical female that was in his room the night before might be up to. 

Why would the small community of Vail believe a pretty local 18 year old strait 'A' piano playing cheerleader, over a famous outsider? I guess that may have been a little presumpsuous on my part, but IMO thats the way small towns are. 

STOMP


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## Anima

I have a question. What does it mean when the attorney of an accused party calls a news conference? 



For the first time ever you don't have to wait to until 10:30 to see Kobe Bryant highlights on you late local news!


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## Paxil

It will either 'see we told you he didn't do anything wrong' or 'we still insist he is innocent... here... look at a cuddle Kobe Sprite commerical... he looks like a good guy doesn't he?'

In other words... if they decide to prosecute, the possible jury members will probably be watching, and it is never too early to start trying to influence them.


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## Masbee

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> The rumour on the Lakers board was that authorities recorded a conversation between Bryant and a friend or member of his enterouge, essentially admitting that he did it.
> 
> If true, that would be rather damning.


I didn't see that. If true, then he (Kobe) has a problem. Still is possible to have the recording thrown out if the authorities in CO didn't do a flawless job of getting permission to tap the line. And you say "essentially admitting". Admitting to adultrey? To getting out of hand during what started out as consensual sex? To attacking her from the get go? What? 

Unless Kobe explicitly admitted to a specific criminal act, he could be on tape sobbing and crying and being very upset, and explain it away after the fact.


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## yangsta

*kobe bryant DA announcement thread*

I'm at work and no where near a TV.. could someone volunteer to deliver immediate coverage of the kobe situation in this thread? It would be greatly appreciated by me and I'm a sure a few others. Thanks


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## Masbee

> Originally posted by <b>STOMP</b>!
> Masbee- How come she was reportedly screaming waking up guests in other rooms. No means no, and she seems to be contending that it was anything but consensual. The bruises would indicate that as well.
> 
> If she was screaming for him to stop to the point where she was waking up other hotel guests (and then left immediately in the middle of the night to go to the emergency room), do you think that the supposive call from Kobe was something other then, "yeah baby that was great." I bet it was more of concern over what the hysterical female that was in his room the night before might be up to.
> 
> Why would the small community of Vail believe a pretty local 18 year old strait 'A' piano playing cheerleader, over a famous outsider? I guess that may have been a little presumpsuous on my part, but IMO thats the way small towns are.
> 
> STOMP


Screaming and bruises - which are all rumors at this point so unknown how significant they will be - are issues that the defense has to deal with, but not insurmountable.

No means no. But what does it mean if you were already having sex? A little more complicated possibly, but still potentially explainable.

Kobe is the defendant. His attorneys don't have to prove the impossible - that he didn't do anything. They only have to cast enough doubt and create enough confusion about whether he did do it. They can throw out any number of plausible theories to explain this women's behavior. If she has had multiple sex partners, ever had a one-night stand, posed nude, had an abortion or vd, is on medication, displayed erratic behavior, can be shown to be star struck, a fame seeker, desperate for money, etc. then the defense has an easier time creating plausible scenarios.

Vail isn't a small town in the typical sense. It is a wealthy resort town. So your comment doesn't make sense. And even if there was some small town solidarity around the home-town girl, that will be shattered if she has even one skeleton in her closet. Many "small town" people in the U.S. feel strongly that girls should not have pre marital sex. If this girl has had multiple lovers, and admits to going to Kobe's room to have sex (initially consensual) for a celebrity encounter, the "small town" mindset will quickly turn on her and fast forget her high-school accomplishments.


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## yangsta

wow.. we're still arguing about something that we'll have the answer to in 40 mins???


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## bfan1

*...*

These boards are going to light up like Christmas Trees and July 4th firework finales when the DA speaks.

You bet-this will probably be a record breaker of a thread.

:wait:


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## sabas4mvp

Anyone know what channel it will be on?


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## cimalee

Espn and espn news prolly more channels also


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## yangsta

13 mins... who here will be happy if kobe gets charged???


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## Minstrel

That's what Portland fans do best -- argue.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Masbee</b>!
> 
> [Kobe] could be on tape sobbing and crying and being very upset, and explain it away after the fact.


Yes, that's what I saw on the tape....oh wait, I'm sorry. I was thinking of when the Lakers got blown out at home in Game Six.

My mistake.


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## yangsta

:laugh:


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## Dragnsmke1

I would seriously be upset. This has nothing to do with competition on the floor and the sport would suffer without Kobe love him or hate him.


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## jackiejackal

*I want the one telling the truth to win*

:uhoh: 

.
The real reason I feel this way is because it would show that
you don't KNOW anybody in the "biz"

You know their carefully groomed personna,BUT NOT THEM.

I work with a gal that moved here years ago from Chicago..
who told me years ago that Michael Jordan was a cheat and was 
seen but not reported in the press.
Finally when the stories started breaking about Michael,she
announced with a big grin on her face.."you didn't believe me,
did you?"

She didn't say this to me however,I had heard bits and pieces
from other folks. And I surely did believe her.

This case is drawing so much press because "Kobe is such a great guy"..
How in heck do we know how his life will play out and what goes
on behind closed doors?

We have not seen him in the public eye long enough to "know him"..
We never will get that privledge,because his private life is not open to us.
Unless..something comes to the surface.


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## Minstrel

It would be a shame. It would be a possible shattering of one man's life and make it likelier that a woman was assaulted.

Sports are fun, but real life trumps it. I may mock Bryant, because he's a big boy and can handle it (that's what he told me), but I wouldn't wish disaster on him, either in the form of incorrect charges or being unbalanced enough to attack a girl.


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## yangsta

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> I would seriously be upset. This has nothing to do with competition on the floor and the sport would suffer without Kobe love him or hate him.


haha.. love that avatar.. Tmac is my fav player... love the eyes on the south park caricature...


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## Masbee

> Originally posted by <b>yangsta</b>!
> 13 mins... who here will be happy if kobe gets charged???


You're not serious.


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## Minstrel

Charges were filed.

1 charge of Assault - Class-3 felony.


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## yangsta




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## Speed

*Kobe Charged! Could get 40 years to Life.*

Wow.


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## Minstrel

Evidently, this carries four years to life in prison, if he's found guilty.

I doubt he will be, though, guilty or not. Athletes never are.


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## cimalee

wow this guy is going after kobe hard , I wanna see what this girl looks like , If kobe did do it , Im wondering why his wife is fine


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## ThatBlazerGuy

A prison B-Ball team is about to get VERY good


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## jackiejackal

*gosh,LAKER fans vocabulary will have to be redone*

1. Jailblazers..can we put that one to rest?
2. Nannyraper..can we retire that one too??


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## cimalee

lol


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## ltrain99

> Originally posted by <b>ThatBlazerGuy</b>!
> A prison B-Ball team is about to get VERY good


Just liek Rick Fox on Oz. I think his character was charged with sexual assault also.


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## lakersalltheway

I think its stupid. This guy is saying that they are treating this like any othewr case yet he says he had to talk to proscurtors all over the state to get to his decision. They wouldnt do that with any other case except a well known person. They arent treating this like any ordinary case. Plus we have no idea what he did for all we know he could have just touched her or something. Plus there saying that Kobe said something happened but the girl did it willingly or at least thats what im uinderstanding by it. So i think this is getting stupid.


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## Schilly

What a shame...Tragic really. While I won't deny this hurts the Lakers, that is so far down on the priority of emotions that I can't cheer for this. Awful. if Kobe truely did this I hope he suffers for it. If he didn't then someone else is playing dirty. I don't think that's the case, this isn't a simple case of trying essentially to blackmail Kobe. This is the real deal. As much time as the DA's office spent making sure there was sufficient evidence.

This is beyond Sport and we have to remember that the victim is not the only one hurt here. Kobe's wife and family have to be devastated as well, not to mention the trauma that the victim could be facing for years to come.

Way to go Kobe.


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## yangsta

hope kobe has Johnny Cochran on speed dial...

from laker forum "Kobe has also now admitted that he has commited adultery with this woman but maintains it was consensual."


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## lakersalltheway

Kobes wife doesnt seem to be mad about it. She has said she will stand by his side. So i think she understands. but now we know something happened. now its a case of rape or was it something she wanted to do.


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## Ed O

Bad news for everyone... like Minstrel said: either he's guilty of a crime or he's going to have a false accusation that will probably hang over him forever.

I wish that the woman had come forward and said it was a misunderstanding (and that it was the truth)... but now that it's come this far, I hope the system finds out the truth and hands down a just decision.

Ed O.


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## Blazer Ringbearer

I'm never drinking Sprite again...


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## cimalee

Wow So kobe did have sex with this girl , Vanessa sounds by his side thats a down wife because aint no way if my wife cheated on me , I dont know what I would do


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## cimalee

adultry is not a good thing , but we all make mistakes battle of the flesh is very tough


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## Schilly

> Originally posted by <b>lakersalltheway</b>!
> I think its stupid. This guy is saying that they are treating this like any othewr case yet he says he had to talk to proscurtors all over the state to get to his decision. They wouldnt do that with any other case except a well known person. They arent treating this like any ordinary case. Plus we have no idea what he did for all we know he could have just touched her or something. Plus there saying that Kobe said something happened but the girl did it willingly or at least thats what im uinderstanding by it. So i think this is getting stupid.


This is indeed a high profile case. I would assume that the prosecuters wanted to make sure their bases were covered so they didn't look like bumbling morons. the Sheriff already helped to hurt that cause.

As far as just touching her is concerned. This is why the spent the time evaluating the evidence...to determine the extent of the crime. Just touching her does not equate to a Felony charge. That would be a sexuall harassment misdemeanor.

WHoever said No means no is right, even if the were already engaged if she told him stop but he refused then, guess what...You got it still assault.


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## bfan1

*wait and see*



> Originally posted by <b>cimalee</b>!
> Wow So kobe did have sex with this girl , Vanessa sounds by his side thats a down wife because aint no way if my wife cheated on me , I dont know what I would do



He has probably been lying to her all along and still is. Either way...she has Kobe by the B___S and when the time is right she may just take him to the cleaners. This could be the beginning of a long and very deep downward spiral for Kobe Bryant. Doesn't seem to me if he is found guilty that there is any glamour in being Mrs. Kobe Bryant.

It's a real shame too...nothing will be the same for him no matter what happens.

What a fool.


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## bfan1

*OT:Kobe issues statement*

Kobe Bryant issues statement admitting adultery, saying he is innocent of sexual assault charge filed today.

From CNN.COM

SI LINK 


bump-found a link


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## BlayZa

if lebron plays his cards right he could be 'the' superstar very very quickly. 
everyday my new avatar is more and more correct


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## cimalee

Kobe is not perfect like everyone is saying , You can be the nicest guy in the world and still have demons


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## yangsta

did they have a prenup??? if so.. then that may be the reason that she's supporting him...


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## cimalee

Nba players should avoid all of these type of things , get away from groupies


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## cimalee

When they got married I think the agreement was she got a million for every child they had , I dont know if this is true but who knows


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## Dragnsmke1

> Originally posted by <b>cimalee</b>!
> Wow So kobe did have sex with this girl , Vanessa sounds by his side thats a down wife because aint no way if my wife cheated on me , I dont know what I would do


YOURE NOT A 100 MILLIONARRE EITHER...


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## yangsta

> Originally posted by <b>ThatBlazerGuy</b>!
> A prison B-Ball team is about to get VERY good


:laugh: 

damn.. it is certainly THE year to have first pick of los angeles county california state prison draft


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## cimalee

Will Nike part ways with Kobe already ???????


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## BlayZa

LA board is saying there are rumors this girl has tried b4 to seduce celebs etc maybe so , doesnt change the fact he fell for it and cheated on his wife , even if it wasnt forced his image is dead. sad thing with a baby n all


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## Speed

*No Portland Trail Blazer ever did anything this serious.*

No more "Jail Blazer" talk.

No more "character" talk.

We're just a bunch of fun loving homies who smoke some pot. 

I think we should keep our team together and go for the championship this year, esp with Kobe Bryant and David Robinson out for the season.

SO many times I had to listen to both Blazer and Laker fans talk about how "Character" mattered. It doesn't. Kobe has no character and he won three championships.

Go Blazers


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## yangsta

didn't ruben patterson rape the nanny?? how did he get away with that?


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## ThatBlazerGuy

Im already practiceing my booing for when Kobe is introduced in the first home blazer/laker game


I hope the crowd heckles him the whole time


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## Minstrel

I have a tough time believe such a rumour, that she had tried to lure other celebs. According to people in the community, she was a very sweet, trustworthy, All-American type of girl.

One guy quoted from Eagle said he figured the girl just made it up until he found out who the girl was...then he said he no longer thought that, considering the girl's character.

To me, that was a bad sign for Kobe.


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## bfan1

*sorry*

The board must be getting salmmed-I have been having a very hard time!

Here is what I had meant to post:



Kob'es wife's statement 

Kobe's statement


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## Public Defender

> Originally posted by <b>BlayZa</b>!
> LA board is saying there are rumors this girl has tried b4 to seduce celebs etc maybe so , doesnt change the fact he fell for it and cheated on his wife , even if it wasnt forced his image is dead. sad thing with a baby n all


If this is true, and the Colorado DA didn't find out, then they're morons and will likely watch their case fall apart. 

However, given the time they've been taking to put the case together, all the consulting they're doing, and the incredible scrutiny they're under, I bet they either a.) found out about her practice but have overwhelming evidence of violence in this case, or b.) investigated those allegations and found them to be false or unsubstantiated. 

I worry for both Kobe and the woman in this case. Both of them are about to have their private lives opened up for the world to see. Vanessa, too, and she didn't do _anything_. Sometimes all the fame and fortune isn't worth it, you know?


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## cimalee

*Dude this isn't a joke for our expense, have some respect*


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## bfan1

*many more to come*



> Originally posted by <b>BlayZa</b>!
> LA board is saying there are rumors this girl has tried b4 to seduce celebs etc maybe so , doesnt change the fact he fell for it and cheated on his wife , even if it wasnt forced his image is dead. sad thing with a baby n all


The Laker board and many other sources will become nothing but a "rumor" mill now. Of course this girl has to be ripped apart. As for Kobe's wife standing by him...we will see how long that lasts.

I think we all are well aware that all one has to do is type some crap and hit submit-boom, there's your rumor.

On the other hand Kobe will be ripped apart too. Already "rumors" that the mistake of adultery is a common thing for Kobe. 

Bottom line is Kobe made a HUGE mistake and he will pay for it for the rest of his life. 
Maybe the mods ought to go ahead and do a sticky and title it Kobe's Charges and leave it all there. I can see this topic smothering the boards in a hurry.


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## cimalee

Iam a blazer fan with class I knew lakers fans all of the junk they use to talk about us would come back to haunt them , remember phil jackson always saying he does not see how portland could support players that get in trouble like that .


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## Kmurph

I find it ridiculous that someone could say they feel sorry for Kobe? Are you flippin kidding me? First he states that he didn't do anything "...you know me better than that" to now admitting that , yes they did have sex but it was consenting. Huh? Excuse me? First no you didn't, now its... well we did, but it was consensual? Oh that is ok then, he is just a frickin liar and adulterer, that will sure help his image and gain him public support. He is going to pay for this big time, even if he avoids jail time, he may have to register as a sexual offender & you CAN BET his endorsement deals will drop him. So goodbye Nike, Sprite, McDonalds, etc...

Secondly, of course he is going to say it is consensual, they have NO OTHER CHOICE but to admit that. They must know the DA has physical evidence proving that sex occured, so admit to consensual sex and make it her word vs his is their only recourse. But if the DA has ANY intelligence, he should FULLY KNOW THIS was going to happen as well. Therefore he MUST have FURTHER evidence, physical or otherwise, helping to prove that case, that is unless he is an idiot. Plus where the trial is being held in CO, does not bode well for Kobe IMO. Kobe is in serious peril here, he could go to jail.


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## Public Defender

*Close Redundant Kobe Threads!!!*

This is about to get extremely annoying. And I for one, would like to have a little basketball mixed in with my discussions of jurisprudence. Maybe it's just me...


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## Blazer Ringbearer

Word!

Whatever moderator merges the threads up will be my very bestest friend in the whole wide world!


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## Ed O

Did Kobe actually say he hadn't done anything? I had read his statement before as saying that the media should know that he hadn't done what he was accused of.

I don't know if I feel sorry for Kobe at all (even if he's not guilty of sexual assault, he's not an innocent party), but I don't know if we can add public liar to his list of faults.

Ed O.


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## Fork

> Originally posted by <b>Blazer Ringbearer</b>!
> Word!


Word to your word.


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## jackiejackal

*His cheating started pretty early ..*

His wife said he made a mistake????
That's quite a mistake..
I would love to be a mouse in the corner of that house..

Unbelievable as a new dad..

"you know me,I would never do that"


----------



## ABM

It was a reasonable request. I merged a number of Kobe threads - and will continue to do so if more pop up.

If you feel the dire need to create other discussions on this topic, you can always take it to the Lakers board. :grinning:


----------



## Public Defender

> Originally posted by <b>ABM</b>!
> It was a reasonable request. I merged a number of Kobe threads - and will continue to do so if more pop up.
> 
> If you feel the dire need to create other discussions on this topic, you can always take it to the Lakers board. :grinning:


Thanks, I'm nothing if not unreasonable. Or is it the other way around?

ABM rawks :rock:


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Masbee</b>!
> Screaming and bruises - which are all rumors at this point so unknown how significant they will be - are issues that the defense has to deal with, but not insurmountable.


Of course these are rumors, thats what I called them in preferencing my question to you. And of course the defense has a fighting chance to deal with these issues. I'm not an insider here with access to any more info then what I'm reading here, but it sounds like deep bleep for Kobe. 



> Originally posted by <b>Masbee</b>!
> They can throw out any number of plausible theories to explain this women's behavior. If she has had multiple sex partners, ever had a one-night stand, posed nude, had an abortion or vd, is on medication, displayed erratic behavior, can be shown to be star struck, a fame seeker, desperate for money, etc. then the defense has an easier time creating plausible scenarios.


I too believe that the defense will likely try to bring the young woman's character into question. Thats a common defense strategy for rape. I'm sure we'll know more about her and also get to meet the DA's version of what the real Kobe is like soon.



> Originally posted by <b>Masbee</b>!
> Vail isn't a small town in the typical sense. It is a wealthy resort town. So your comment doesn't make sense. And even if there was some small town solidarity around the home-town girl, that will be shattered if she has even one skeleton in her closet. Many "small town" people in the U.S. feel strongly that girls should not have pre marital sex. If this girl has had multiple lovers, and admits to going to Kobe's room to have sex (initially consensual) for a celebrity encounter, the "small town" mindset will quickly turn on her and fast forget her high-school accomplishments.


I very much doubt she is going to be on the stand testifing she went to his room to have sex, but had second thoughts about it after it had started. Thats possibly what the defense will claim, but I'd bet the DA has this base pretty well covered in their initial investigation and multiple interviews with her. I bet she will be on the stand though...

Given how expensive it is to live in the Vail community, I'd speculate the jury pool (compared to mainstream America) is an educated and worldly bunch . Probably much moreso then LA. I'd hope that most people with any common sense would be able to differenciate the severity between a young woman possibly having a boyfriend or three in highschool to being held down and taken against her will by a stranger (regardless of his level of fame). One is pretty much normal teenage behavior since forever, and the other has always aroused some pretty condemning emotions. 

It seems to me that the rumors of what evidence the DA has may be true. So again it looks like there is more to the she said side as far as evidence goes, which was the original point I engaged you. The DA would only bring this case if he believes he has the evidence to counter any expensive legal efforts Bryant will try. To beat Bryant's $, he's got to feel he has aces to lay down. At this point, I feel only compasion for the victim and her family for having to go through this. Dispite the Lakers setback, its not a happy day at all.

STOMP


----------



## Siouxperior

*OT- Kobe court paper Link*

http://thesmokinggun.com/doc_o_day/doc_o_day.html


----------



## blazerfan4life

> Originally posted by <b>cimalee</b>!
> I wanna see what this girl looks like


Have you seen his wife...WOW...if i had her on my arms..i wouldn't want anyone else...GGGGRRRRRRR


----------



## ABM

Due to the EXTRMEME interest in the Kobe Bryant situation, many, many posters are wanting to speak up on the subject.

However, out of respect for, and in deference to, our Blazer posters, we will merge all Kobe threads to this one general thread.

It has been made a sticky as to make it convenient for all to access.

Thanks for your understanding. :yes:


----------



## Blazer Ringbearer

Thanks ABM


----------



## Masbee

> Originally posted by <b>STOMP</b>!
> I very much doubt she is going to be on the stand testifing she went to his room to have sex, but had second thoughts about it after it had started. Thats possibly what the defense will claim, but I'd bet the DA has this base pretty well covered in their initial investigation and multiple interviews with her. I bet she will be on the stand though...
> 
> Given how expensive it is to live in the Vail community, I'd speculate the jury pool (compared to mainstream America) is an educated and worldly bunch . Probably much moreso then LA. I'd hope that most people with any common sense would be able to differenciate the severity between a young woman possibly having a boyfriend or three in highschool to being held down and taken against her will by a stranger (regardless of his level of fame). One is pretty much normal teenage behavior since forever, and the other has always aroused some pretty condemning emotions.
> STOMP


original response invalid due to incorrect data supplied by ESPN, now corrected.

Kobe has been charged with first degree sexual assault, not third degree.


----------



## STOMP

issues are becoming clearer all the time, thanks for the link.

STOMP


----------



## Minstrel

The former DA of Eagle county, acting as a legal expert for ESPN, said that the charges brought against Bryant were exactly equivalent to rape.

And he, along with other reports I've read, have said that this charge entails holding her down and forcible penetration.

So I'm not sure how this is just a minor thing with no holding against her will, etc. How do you rape someone without holding them down?


----------



## Reep

The complaint (cnn.com) spells out that there was sexual penetration and some type of physical force used. It may have been threat of force, that is not clear.


----------



## Masbee

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> The former DA of Eagle county, acting as a legal expert for ESPN, said that the charges brought against Bryant were exactly equivalent to rape.
> 
> And he, along with other reports I've read, have said that this charge entails holding her down and forcible penetration.
> 
> So I'm not sure how this is just a minor thing with no holding against her will, etc. How do you rape someone without holding them down?


You are right. I remembered the smoking gun showed a copy of the complaint and it says Kobe "caused submission of the victim through the actual application of physical force....". Well, that doesn't match with the ESPN report that he was charged with third degree sexual assault. 

So I go back to ESPN to check it out as they were my source. Hey, guess what. The ESPN site has been changed. Now it lists first degree sexual assault. Nice work ESPN 

I will correct the earlier post.


----------



## Terrible

A couple of things I don't understand!

This girl works at the front desk right, so she's not a room service person is that correct?

She did not know it was Kobe till after?

She did not know he was married with a brand new baby?

If she "DID" know all these things she overlooked them and went to his room? Why? Couldn't have gotten an autograph or a picture in the lobby?

This case reminds me of another career girl, wasn't her name Monica?

Sorry but common sense on her part should have to come into play at some juncture, before she even went to his room. If not common sense maybe ethics and morals.

Sure Kobe screwed up but this chick knew even going to a married guys room was a little shady, especially a married guy she just met.

I really doubt that Kobe went and grabbed her, brought her to his room and got his groove on with his buddies not to far away or watching.


----------



## Talkhard

Kobe is in a world of trouble.

What precedent do we have for this kind of thing? Mike Tyson. And who won in that case? The girl. And who went to jail? Mike Tyson.

The cases may not be identical, but they sure are close. Unless Kobe pays off this girl and her family BIG TIME and settles out of court, I'd say there's a very good chance he could do jail time.

You get a pretty white girl on the stand crying about forcible penetration by a black athelete, with a jury of the girl's peers, and it don't look good, Kobe. It don't look good. 

I sure hope the girl is telling the truth. I'd hate to see any guy go to jail for something that really didn't happen.


----------



## Terrible

I sure hope the race card is not used here! That would be really crappy!


----------



## ABM

Is it me, or did he not look too believable in his press conference tonight?


----------



## Public Defender

> Originally posted by <b>Terrible</b>!
> Sorry but common sense on her part should have to come into play at some juncture, before she even went to his room. If not common sense maybe ethics and morals.
> 
> Sure Kobe screwed up but this chick knew even going to a married guys room was a little shady, especially a married guy she just met.
> 
> I really doubt that Kobe went and grabbed her, brought her to his room and got his groove on with his buddies not to far away or watching.


You're coming dangerously close to blaming the victim, here, Terrible. Even if it's not technically in her job description and even if she went up to Kobe's room of her own volition and in part out of fascination with Kobe's celebrity status, the moment a woman says "no" the situation changes dramatically. It's then no longer about her morals and all about the assailant (because that's what the male becomes) and his knowledge of _the law_. As turned on as you might be and as much as you might doubt the veracity of the "no" - you've got to stop. 

I have no idea what the circumstances were, and I don't envy the jury in this case who will have to weigh lots of factors in deciding Bryant's guilt, but I would weigh these facts heavily: *#1,* this woman is physically far weaker than 6'7" 220 pound Kobe Bryant, *#2* she was likely intimidated by his celebrity status, money, fame, and entourage, and *#3* she was likely cowed by the fact that Bryant was staying at the hotel at which she was employed. All of these factors put the power in this relationship squarely with Bryant. 

Talkhard brought up the Mike Tyson case - in that case, part of what really fried Tyson's goose was the fact that there were other women who could pretty well corroborate Tyson's penchant for being rough with women. If the DA can find even one woman to impugn Bryant's character, the DA's case gets much easier, and Bryant's gets tougher. As Terrible alluded to, Bryant's lawyer will put the woman's character and choices on trial - the DA has to do the same to Bryant. It's a nasty business.


----------



## GOD

After watching kobe admit adultery and deny the charges, I just got this gut feeling that had nothing to do with the words that were said, that he really is innocent.

only time will tell, but up until this point I thought he was likely guilty.


----------



## STOMP

After reading the various news articles and threads on this, I'm getting real sick of seeing Kobe's cutsie mug on the top of this site. Hopefully he'll be replaced from there soon.

STOMP


----------



## RG

> Originally posted by <b>ABM</b>!
> Is it me, or did he not look too believable in his press conference tonight?


I'm with you. it looked as though he was trying to conjure up some tears but couldn't quite make it happen. Maybe this wasn't as big of a deal to him as losing to the Spurs?

I was especially moved by the little "you're my heartbeat and my breath" speech. Makes you wonder if he was breathing or pumping blood in Colorado doesn't it? or did he just need some extra breath?


----------



## ABM

> Originally posted by <b>RG</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm with you. it looked as though he was trying to conjure up some tears but couldn't quite make it happen. Maybe this wasn't as big of a deal to him as losing to the Spurs?
> 
> I was especially moved by the little "you're my heartbeat and my breath" speech. Makes you wonder if he was breathing or pumping blood in Colorado doesn't it? or did he just need some extra breath?


Good points.

BTW, :rotf: @ your sig!


----------



## jackiejackal

*He enjoyed full public support[not mine]*

and made no attempt to say AT LEAST he had cheated on his wife.

NOW,he comes forward and tries to distance himself fully from
an attack,and says it was just cheating on his wife.
But as fans/friends/co workers/family were coming forward
in public saying HE COULDN'T HAVE DONE THIS..
he knew fully he was letting them display trust in him,and he was
enjoying the public support...and instead he have said nothing and continued with his little squeaky clean charade.

That to me tells alot.

He must have thought nothing would come of this..


----------



## loyalty4life

*Re: He enjoyed full public support[not mine]*



> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> and made no attempt to say AT LEAST he had cheated on his wife.


He admitted that he commited adultery... twice, he said that. How else do you want him to tell everyone that he cheated on his wife?


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>RG</b>!
> I was especially moved by the little "you're my heartbeat and my breath" speech. Makes you wonder if he was breathing or pumping blood in Colorado doesn't it? or did he just need some extra breath?


He was probably just keeping his aerobic level up for her and his new daughter. What a great guy. I want to buy the products he endorses.

Now that GP's incident has been upgraded, looks like Portland's days as the bad boys of the NBA are numbered if not done.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/news/2003/07/18/added_charge_ap/

STOMP


----------



## ABM

*Re: Re: He enjoyed full public support[not mine]*



> Originally posted by <b>Loyalty4Life</b>!
> 
> 
> He admitted that he commited adultery... twice, he said that. How else do you want him to tell everyone that he cheated on his wife?


Scripted.

I just watched the conference a second time. I noticed that his wife could hardly look at him - almost as if she didn't believe him. It might not mean anything, but, my gut feeling is, there's a lot more going on here than meets the eye.

The hearings/trial might have the magnitude of the O.J. debacle, understanding nobody was killed here (relatively speaking).


----------



## Talkhard

> "NOW,he comes forward and tries to distance himself fully from an attack,and says it was just cheating on his wife. But as fans/friends/co workers/family were coming forward in public saying HE COULDN'T HAVE DONE THIS... he knew fully he was letting them display trust in him,and he was enjoying the public support... and instead he have said nothing and continued with his little squeaky clean charade.
> 
> That to me tells alot.
> 
> He must have thought nothing would come of this."


Nice point, JackieJackal. Clinton did the same thing in the Monica Lewinsky case. He let all his friends go out and defend him and make fools out of themselves even though he knew he was guilty all along. Then he confessed when he had no other choice. 

Sleezy and cowardly, in both cases.


----------



## MrWonderful

*And I called Damon stupid!*

I didn't think you could mess up worse than trying to squeeze your reefer through the airport metal detector wrapped in tinfoil, but kobe bean figured out a way . . .

Anybody need a celebrity product endorser, cheap?


----------



## jackiejackal

*THIS HAPPENED JUNE 30TH*

HE CAME FORWARD ON JULY 18TH !
read it again..
he enjoyed full public support.
He could have come clean that night to admit the adultry !

That would have been a different scene..

Talk hard what an excellent post !

Yes..indeed same situation..only come forward when forced
and admit to the least thing possible.


----------



## bfan1

*David Stern Statement*

Link 

pretty much expected


----------



## STOMP

*Re: THIS HAPPENED JUNE 30TH*



> Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!
> Nice point, JackieJackal...





> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> Talk hard what an excellent post !


you two should get a room  

STOMP


----------



## jackiejackal

*I watched the video again*

"You're the air that I breathe, and the beats of my heart"..
EXCEPT when I am having sex in Colorado..
guess that the thin Colorado air is to blame..

This would have carried much more weight on June 30th.


----------



## Blazer Ringbearer

Kobe Bryant isn't real... somewhere behind that fake, whitewashed shell of a human being that he's selling been us is a real person.

Not saying he's an evil person under there or anything, but this might be the first time we experience part of the real Kobe... who knows. I don't really care that much either way, he can have his fake millionaire life...


----------



## Yega1979

> Originally posted by <b>Blazer Ringbearer</b>!
> They can't settle out of court as this would be a criminal trial...
> 
> Settling would mean a plea bargain where Kobe entered a guilty plea and got a reduced sentence. If any jail time were involved, no way Kobe does that...


Remember what happened when Michael Jackson allegedly molsted that kid? He called the police and they found evidence that the kid was telling the truth, but Jackson and the family settled out of court. That case was just as "criminal" as this one.


----------



## jackiejackal

*This is a case that happens every single day*

This is not unusual,rare,unbelievable..etc..

What makes it unusual is the accused.

What upsets me the most,is that he knew that night that she went to the police,the hospital,etc.

He said nothing..
the case didn't break for another 2 days...

In that 2 days,I just can't believe that with a lawyers help,
he didn't come forward and difuse what he knew would be a 
sky high case..

He could have had his wife on his arm that next morning saying
what he said tonight.
I would love to know when his wife found out and what he told her.
Like the attorney on CNN said tonight,expect his wife to be glued to his arm from here on.."she will be key for him"

He is such a newly wed,that I am surprized he wasn't hanging on the phone with her every night,talking from his room...talking about the baby,whatever..
not out having sex,whether consenual or not.
To me,that's the shocker of it..
not that he did it,but the time frame of his young married life.


----------



## Blazer Ringbearer

I don't remember that...

They must have dropped the charges, but I didn't think you could pay someone to do that legally in a criminal trial... sounds unethical and illegal.

Regardless, once the DA gets going, there's no stopping it unless "the people" decide to, and the DA probably won't accept Kobe's All-Star votes as evidence.


----------



## Blazer Ringbearer

JJ-

Pretty ridiculous I agree... as for him not coming out sooner, my guess is that he was just hoping/thinking it would all go away. After all, he's Kobe, and he's worked really hard to attain that loveable little boy image. I'm sure he was thinking it would all just blow over, but he was wrong.

Cheers


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Yega1979</b>!
> 
> 
> Remember what happened when Michael Jackson allegedly molsted that kid? He called the police and they found evidence that the kid was telling the truth, but Jackson and the family settled out of court. That case was just as "criminal" as this one.


No, actually it wasn't just as "criminal" as the Bryant case. The boy's parents filed a multi-million dollar lawsuit...it was a civil case. You can settle civil cases. Further, I don't think they found evidence that the boy was telling the truth...Jackson filed counter-suit for extortion and ended up settling out of court due to the humiliation of the case.

Kobe Bryant can't "settle," monetarily, in a criminal case. Either he plea bargains, which would surely carry some jail time, or he pleads not guilty and goes for either being found not guilty or facing a full sentence.


----------



## barfo

I don't understand this discussion. 120 posts, and no one has even addressed the central question:

How does Kobe feel about _*the Flag*_??? Is he a _*real American*_???

barfo


----------



## Terrible

I have one thought here so be patient with this rant, Minstrel, Ed O and others of my devoted readers! 

Over the years we have seen some high profile people go to jail or get in massive trouble over women and poor choices these men have made, true?

Is it always the males responsibilty to listen to the women and hear, understand, and carry out her wishes in those personal moments? OF COURSE!!!!!!


That said, I've also seen women like Monica telling her friends before she left to be the presidents intern she was packing a pillow for her trip, a pillow you ask? Yeah, so her knees wont get bruised while she giving the president a hummer! That to me is a plan people, a plan to make a mess. This is not the first time Monica destroyed a family, she did the same at Reed College with her prof. Monica was a fat little girl that became a celeb over night and now has talk shows and a garmet company from seeking out the president and making a living as his victim. I ask who really is the victim here? The pres acted like an idiot, put his family at risk, and tarnished the white house a bit, but this chick got a career and became a mulit -millionaire using him as the stage! So should we also think that Monica did not know the pres was married with kids before she stalked him for weeks and months? I will say this again the fault lies with the pres. but the courting lies on Monica! Somewhere this girl has some seriously messed up values.

The point I'm making here, is that there are "SOME" women out there looking to become famous on their own, and others using someone else to get there. Monica is a perfect example of climbing the corporate ladder on ones back!

Now this Kobe case in some ways seems simlilar. Here's a girl that couldn't make American Idol, wants to be a star without all the talent, and see's an opportunity.

"I'm not saying this is true, but would you atleast say it's possible?"

The real point I'm making is why are all these girls always in the wrong place at the wrong time with these high profile people? Chance? I don't think so! People need to start using their common sense! Both men and women! Kobe should have run away from this girl, and she should have known better than to show up at some married guys room after hours. Both made mistakes, neither will come out of this untarnished. However if this girl ends up with 20 million dollars and a talk show, it has to make you wonder a little.

Going from a desk clerk to a millionaire in under six months is a business plan Harvard couldn't give ya!

However if it is true that Kobe raped this women, Kobe soon will learn what it's like to be violated in prison. He will get his crime done to him in a hurry. The jury is still out for me, how about you?


----------



## Minstrel

My question is, why does it matter if the girl had "a plan" to try and lure the guy into sex? Just because a girl wants to have sex with you, doesn't mean you're forced to accept.

Guys have plans, all the time, to try and seduce girls. Doesn't mean they automatically succeed. So why is it even an issue that some women are trying to seduce guys? (Even assuming that the girl in the Kobe case was, which, of course, there's no substantiation for yet...she may just wanted to *see* a superstar, not sleep with him.)

Okay...some women have a plan. It's up to the married men who can be hurt by scandal to say "No" to that plan. Isn't it?


----------



## Blaze

Will Kobe miss a large part of the season? Listening to some law experts on CNN, they discussed how the case could get started in about 6 months, putting it around a Feb-March time line. They thought it wouldn't last long, about 3 weeks. Kobe will have to be in court right, so he would miss about 8-12 games. Anyone who knows more, let us know.


----------



## Masbee

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> My question is, why does it matter if the girl had "a plan" to try and lure the guy into sex? Just because a girl wants to have sex with you, doesn't mean you're forced to accept.
> 
> Guys have plans, all the time, to try and seduce girls. Doesn't mean they automatically succeed. So why is it even an issue that some women are trying to seduce guys? (Even assuming that the girl in the Kobe case was, which, of course, there's no substantiation for yet...she may just wanted to *see* a superstar, not sleep with him.)
> 
> Okay...some women have a plan. It's up to the married men who can be hurt by scandal to say "No" to that plan. Isn't it?


I think Terrible didn't really finish the thought. Try this:

IF this woman "had a plan", THEN that goes a long way to creating a far more plausible scenario as to why an otherwise and formerly upstanding young woman would have VOLUTARILY and aggressively seduced Kobe. Yes, Kobe should have said no. Yes, he committed adultery, as he admitted. But adultery is not a sex crime in Colorado. And even if it was, she is guilty of it too if she consented to sex at any point.

Why then would she scream (rumors), go to the police, etc.? Her plan could have been half-baked. She may not have realized that criminal sexual charges are out of the victims control. More likely would be a scenario where they got into a fight. Possibly over their "relationship". Kobe may have laughed at her expectations.

It is a known common problem among police officers dealing with sex crimes that a certain percentage of "victims" make up stories as they have a change of heart over the encounter. People want to go back in time and make the choice over again.

I am not saying this applies to this woman, as I have no idea. Just pointing out it happens.


----------



## ABM

From OC Register (Registration {free} Required)



> In Eagle, more details emerged about the night of the alleged attack.
> 
> The woman, who was working the late shift at the resort, told one of her friends that she went to Bryant's hotel room shortly after he had checked in.
> 
> "She said it was late, so she went to deliver him something," said Ashley Scriver, 19.
> 
> "She said he was very nice, playing it cool, totally playing off his image. Then he just went crazy," Scriver said.
> 
> "She said he forced himself on her. He went the whole way. She didn't have a choice."........
> 
> .........At the Irvine Spectrum, about 50 people inside the main bar at Fox Sports Grill looked up from their beef-dip sandwiches, jambalaya and beers to watch the news conference on most of the 26 flat-screen TV monitors.
> 
> When it was over, most observers said they still support the NBA star - up to a point.
> 
> "It's one thing if he had consensual sex,'' said Andy Parnes, 45, of San Clemente. "It's another if he raped someone. That would change everything.''
> 
> Bryant's admission of adultery - and the quick support voiced by his wife, Vanessa - bothered some.
> 
> "For those of us working hard to keep our marriages together for the sake of our children, this makes me feel like it's a losing battle,'' said Jill Behrle, 40, of San Juan Capistrano.
> 
> "This kind of reminds me of the Clinton situation. It seems that society has decided that affairs within a marriage are now acceptable.''
> 
> But back in the small resort-area town of Eagle, which has been rocked by this high-profile case, people protected the woman.
> 
> "She's scared of the outcome and what everyone is thinking about her," Scriver said.
> 
> "I know she's trying to be strong, but I've never seen her go through anything like this."


----------



## Masbee

> "She said it was late, so she went to deliver him something," said Ashley Scriver, 19.
> 
> "She said he was very nice, playing it cool, totally playing off his image. Then he just went crazy," Scriver said.
> 
> "She said he forced himself on her. He went the whole way. She didn't have a choice."........


Ok, I am no big fan of Kobe, but these quotes are ridiculous. This doesn't pass the giggle test.

We are supposed to believe that Kobe "just went crazy"?

She was in his room delivering something - nothing more - and he suddenly jumps her? There has to be a lot more to this.

Unless it comes out that Kobe is a drug user, which could explain the sudden and dramatic change in behavior, what human in his situation would act this way? A psychopath. Not Kobe.

Let's imagine some scenarios for the sake of argument.

He checks into a resort horny as hell and no other option than to attack the first attractive female that comes in his room?

If he has been a "player" for years and years - as some maintain - he couldn't get one of his female acquaintances in the Rocky Mountain area to join him?

If he has been a "player" his bodyguards haven't been in on it and couldn't round up a willing sex partner on short notice? It is done all the time.

This is a world-class resort in Colorado. Desk employees at these establishments are confronted with requests by patrons to help them solve their, uh, "needs" ALL THE TIME. And most establishments that want to keep customers help them get what they need. A few make direct arrangements. Even the most skittish will refer the customer to a bartender or someone who will hook them up with reliable contacts. Both she and Kobe would be aware of these alternate means of his sexual gratification.

No, these quotes are indicative of telling half the story. There is a lot more to it than that. If Kobe did indeed rape this woman, I can only imagine a scenario where there was some strong indication of interest on her part and most likely were already involved in sexual activity, and at some point she wanted to stop - and then Kobe raped her. No means no, even in the middle. Based on his personality and past behavior, I could see where Kobe has the potential to "snap" in this situation and become violent and cross that line. He has been in fights before. It is not out of the question.

But to imply that she was attacked out of the blue by Kobe better not be the position the prosecutor will take. If he does, the defense will shred that story to bits. Just as Kobe has admitted to adultery, the victim better be willing to admit to a sexual encounter run amok - at the risk of ruining her sweet and virginal reputation. Or, if Kobe did rape her, he will get off. You can't get away with telling some truth and some lies in these situations.


----------



## STOMP

I'm guessing the DA won't be calling on her as a character witness...

STOMP


----------



## Fork

> Originally posted by <b>STOMP</b>!
> I'm guessing the DA won't be calling on her as a character witness...
> 
> STOMP


Why would you say that?

Her quote is basically that he was being cool, then he went crazy. 

Are you guys picturing Kobe stripping naked, smearing feces on the wall and biting the heads off a few chickens before raping her? 

'Just went crazy.' could easily mean that he started getting aggressive and he wouldn't stop when she told him to. 'Crazy' has a lot of definitions. Sounds like a classic case of date rape. Happens all the time.


----------



## Trader Ed

I do not do a lot of travelling, but...

Is it common place to have a hotel let ladies make deliveries to men .... alone? Let alone an attractive lady? and a young one at that? 

it does not sound like good business sense to me... you should go in two's... and maybe even mixed gender.


Kobe never should have placed himself in that situation, period. Especially as a married man.


----------



## ABM

> Originally posted by <b>STOMP</b>!
> I'm guessing the DA won't be calling on her as a character witness...
> 
> STOMP


Hard to say, STOMP. Coulda been a simple case of this 19-year old friend of the alleged victim coming out of a grocery store and the OC Register tape recorder gets shoved in her face. It's a spur-of-the-moment occasion which potentially (unfortunately?) gets printed in its entirety

Like Fork mentioned, "crazy" might have been the only word this girl could spit out in the split of the moment. Might not even have been the word that the alleged victim used when describing the incident to her.

Obviously, speculation, conjecture, innuendoes, and rumors are going to be running rampant over the course of the next few months.


----------



## ABM

> Originally posted by <b>Trader Bob</b>!
> I do not do a lot of travelling, but...
> 
> Is it common place to have a hotel let ladies make deliveries to men .... alone? Let alone an attractive lady? and a young one at that?
> 
> it does not sound like good business sense to me... you should go in two's... and maybe even mixed gender.


I had heard that Kobe had asked for "room service" - and, specifically for her. Not sure if that's true though. If so, she may have been "star struck" and heeded the request, without any thought of "Mr. Nice Guy, All-Star, Family Man, Endeared Citizen" doing anything weird or unethical. Perhaps, even, Kobe may have asked for a bottle of Chablis, or something of that nature, to be brought up to his room. Why would she think anything was "up"? Then, when she gets to the room, Kobe might have asked her to pour him a glass - no, pour "both" of them a glass. She may have been "honored", but said something to the effect of she couldn't while she was on duty. And, who knows what from there.....

Just a scenario......



> Kobe never should have placed himself in that situation, period. Especially as a married man.


Agreed 1-hundred- percent!!!! :clap:


----------



## Public Defender

> Originally posted by <b>Terrible</b>!
> The real point I'm making is why are all these girls always in the wrong place at the wrong time with these high profile people? Chance? I don't think so! People need to start using their common sense! Both men and women! Kobe should have run away from this girl, and she should have known better than to show up at some married guys room after hours. Both made mistakes, neither will come out of this untarnished. However if this girl ends up with 20 million dollars and a talk show, it has to make you wonder a little.


All these girls? I just don't see that many women doing what you're describing. In most cases, women who have messy affairs with men in positions of power or fame want no part of the ugliness that follows. Jennifer Flowers didn't look to be found out. Nor did Jessica Hahn. Nor did Monica Lewinsky, for that matter - yes, she talked to women she trusted about what happened, which in her case, was consensual sex (and no one has disputed that). 

But when it comes to _sexual assault_, that's another ball of wax. Why would a woman want to subject herself to the scrutiny of millions of people, getting pilloried in the press, talk shows and internet, and go through what will surely be a borderline-traumatic trial experience in which her sex life will be examined while the entire world watches for the infinitesmal chance that she might endure it all and get some kind of show-biz opportunity out of it? She'd have to be an idiot to take that kind of chance. After all, look what happened to Linda Tripp, who thought she'd get some kind of strokes out of "outing" Monica - Linda got laughed at from New York to LA for being overweight, petty, and conniving. The American media is heartless, and this woman would be a complete dolt to believe she'd be improving her shot at fame (rather than infamy) through prosecuting one of the nation's best loved athletes. She'd be better off practicing, or cozying up to some of the other celebs that come through Vail... and I don't mean sexually.


----------



## RoseCity

Musta missed that one barfo.


----------



## barfo

> Originally posted by <b>RoseCity</b>!
> Picture of the girl, from ESPN message board. Not sure how solid this is but I was told this was her.


Oooh, RoseCity, you're gonna get it when mom hears about this. She said we couldn't make jokes or post pictures anymore or she'd send us to our rooms without dinner. (But hey, I won't tell - I think mom's a wee bit touchy about certain things)

barfo



> If you are found slandering Kobe or his victim, or posting pictures, jokes or anything distasteful, you will be BANNED on the spot. No ifs, ands or buts.


----------



## Cam*Ron

I found a website on Kobe's accuser, but I don't wanna post it if I would get banned. Can I get banned for posting the website? 

-to the MODS


----------



## ABM

> Originally posted by <b>Bunk 22</b>!
> I found a website on Kobe's accuser, but I don't wanna post it if I would get banned. Can I get banned for posting the website?
> 
> -to the MODS


The time limit for posting it, then removing it, is 22 seconds.  

Just kidding. You'd probably better not.


----------



## Cam*Ron

LOL naw I want do it.


----------



## jackiejackal

*He stole my story from yesterday*

just kidding..
But this was my point yesterday.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/941255.asp

I also just heard an interesting comment from Chris..can't remember the last name..
who said Kobe was grinning all over at the ESPYS because he
was so sure he would not be charged.


----------



## Talkhard

> 'Just went crazy.' could easily mean that he started getting aggressive and he wouldn't stop when she told him to. 'Crazy' has a lot of definitions. Sounds like a classic case of date rape. Happens all the time.


Exactly right, Fork. I've heard women say some guy "went crazy" (or "he lost it," etc) to describe something he did that offended them or that seemed innapropriate in some way. Sometimes they use the word to heighten the drama of what happened; to make it sound more exciting and interesting. People love to exaggerate when telling stories about something like this. 

So we shouldn't think that Kobe was foaming at the mouth, throwing her around the room, ripping her clothes off, etc. He was probably just kissing her and fondling her and being very aggressive. This stunned her, perhaps, so now she is describing it in melodramatic terms.


----------



## jackiejackal

*I am going to divulge something here*

That maybe helpful..
When I was about 27 I met a very nice man..
I saw him at work,I couldn't avoid him because I was using the service where he worked..

I saw enough of him,that I decided he was really a sweet guy..
Much to my surprize and joy,he asked me out.
The first date,we had a nice dinner,sat and talked and he took
me home without any problems..
I really liked him !
He seemed shy,I liked that,and just a real decent person.

On the second date,I met him at his job,we walked couple doors
down..and introduced him to my mom.
She thought he was terrific and agreed with me..
this guy was a polite,good looking articulate guy.

On the third date,he suggested we go on a "real date"..
get dressed up,go to a really nice place,maybe even catch a local
band here in Portland.

We had a delightful date,it was still early..
he suggested we take a ride and see the lights of the holiday season...
We did,and that's when my story gets to the point.

He asked me if I would sit closer to him on the seat..
I didn't see any problem with that..
He asked if he could put his arm around me..yeah,that was fine..
Well,we sat there for about 30 minutes really enjoying the sights..
I might add this was not out in the sticks...
this was right in the city of Portland in a fairly crowded section.

Without asking me..he pulled me over and kissed me..
I thought it abit odd,he seemed forceful for such a seemingly
shy guy.
Then without warning he manipulated me over on my back..in a second ! and held my arms down ...
What shocked me was that this happened so quickly and how suddenly I couldn't move.

I said..''Earl..hey..what are you doing?
Please let me up..what are you doing here..please don't hold me down.."
Mean while I am trying to free my arms as he is now having one
of his arms free and still able to pin me to the seat of his deluxe
truck seat and I still couldn't move.!

That made me panic that I couldn't move..it is the worst feeling in the world..you're trapped.

I was close to being raped by my suddenly non speaking sweet
date Earl..
and I was fighting against him..and we are on the street with
Christmas lights shining thru the windows..and people walking right by..

I asked him again..in a calm voice,"Please let me up..you are scaring me Earl..please,you are hurting me.."
At this point,his calm sweet charm was gone..totally !

I said one final time.."Earl,I am going to scream for help.."
I don't want you to get into trouble,but you will if you don't let me up"..and thank god he did..

By the way..this was over in a brief few minutes..
but the shock of this happening so quickly was incredible.
I never told my mom or sister about this..
I still am very nervous about getting into elevator's or a closed area with a stranger..

I saved him from disgrace here and possibly losing his job..

But I never talked with him again..

Outside of my wrists hurting,I didn't have a blackeye,bruises,etc..
and I was held,pinned ! by a pretty big guy.
To this day,it just amazes me that he could change so totally and 
have this other personality..
By the way..
I have never read his name in the police blotter thru the years,and can't explain yet to this day..why??

I saw nothing to indicate he would expect forced sexual favors
on the 3rd date..
But the feeling of not being able to move still chills me..
That was horrifying.

Please..just consider that a very normal appearing man can change very suddenly and attack a woman.
If you were to see him on the street,you would say..
wow..he is a smiling good looking guy..
But when he changed..he wasn't smiling.

Also..what I found curious over the years in thinking about it,
was why he didn't ask about sexual contact..as if in consenual,
why on earth use force?????????

I will never know the answer..

Earl,if you are out there..
maybe you can answer that.


----------



## Public Defender

JJ - appreciate the honesty. I'm sure it's not easy to talk about. 

When I was in college there was a "friend" of mine who got caught up in a series of date-rape cases. I always thought he was somewhat of a jerk/jock/fratboy, but not in a really bad way - just in sort of macho-but-harmless way, and never on the level of what he was accused of. At first, I figured the women were blowing things out of proportion, it was a misunderstanding, etc. But once I got the women's side of the story, I, too realized how different seemingly normal guys can become utter a-holes in no time... although there was alcohol involved, and the women didn't go to the authorities or to counselors right away, so it got messy... people on campus took sides, the administration got involved, so did police, etc. The episodes he was involved in were not as Jekyll-and-Hyde as your experience (I don't know what to say - sorry that happened and sorry it's resulted in your being uncomfortable in otherwise innocuous situations), but they did involve a level of physical coercion - and I think it happens pretty frequently. 

Date rape - which is probably the category that Kobe's "assault" falls under - is very difficult to prove, and very difficult to see coming. The scary thing, as you pointed out, is that in some cases, consensual sex may not have been out of the question, if handled right... makes you wonder if some guys aren't interested in having the patience, sensitivity, intelligence, or whatever it takes to get there in a way that's comfortable for both people. Or if they prefer it otherwise. Scary.

However - we still don't know what happened with Kobe, and it could be that this woman is manipulating things to gain something. I find that pitiful and desperate, if true... and especially unfair to the women who actually experience instances of date rape. If she's a false accuser, she'll only make it harder for other women to prove their cases.


----------



## Talkhard

Interesting story, JJ. And probably not that uncommon. Lots of guys are awkward and unsure of themselves around women, and they don't know how to initiate a "romantic encounter." So they do something stupid like your Earl did. 

But let me present it from the guy's side, if I can. I don't know that it happened this way, but bear with me.

You check into a hotel, where you meet a very cute 19-year-old girl at the reception desk. But she's not just cute--she's beautiful! And she's flirting with you. I mean really flirting! You can see the sparkle in her eyes, the "come hither" look that is so exciting. So you give her a call from your room, and ask her to bring up a bottle of champagne. She appears at your door all smiling and giggling. She flirts with you some more. Maybe even makes a suggestive joke. 

You know she wants you. She's giving you all the right signals! So you grab her and kiss her. And maybe she kisses you back, and lets you squeeze her, and now you're getting worked up. So you take her to the bed. 

But then things getting tricky. She seems to be resisting, playing hard to get. You don't like this. You thought she really WANTED YOU. I mean, what was all that flirting about? So you push on, but she pushes back. She's having second thoughts now. She's not sure she wants to go through with it. But you're all hot and ready to go! She can't do this to you. It's not fair! If she didn't want it, why did she come up to your room. So you press on . . .

You get the idea. This kind of thing has happened to millions of guys. The woman gives you all the right signals, and she comes to your room alone, and maybe she let's you kiss her. But she's really just "experimenting" with her feelings. She likes the idea of flirting with you, and she likes the idea of you being attracted to her, but she doesn't really know what she wants to do about it. She's just sort of living in the moment. 

Guys don't operate that way. If a guy invites a beautiful woman to his hotel room, he's "serious" about her. He wants to have sex with her. And, speaking on behalf of guys everywhere, we can't understand why women don't understand that!! To us, it's like a contract. And it proceeds a long a certain line of progression. We meet. We smile at each other. We flirt. We move onto more flirting. Body language comes into play. We touch each other. We get familiar. An invitation is made. The woman accepts. She appears at your door. More flirting. More touching. 1,2,3,4 . . . It all follows a natural progression. 

And the guy thinks, "Of course she wants me! She wouldn't have come to my room if she didn't!"

Okay, I know I'm going to get hell for this post. But I think if you guys are honest, you'll agree that this is the way it is.


----------



## jackiejackal

*great posts guys but*

"But then things getting tricky. She seems to be resisting, playing hard to get. You don't like this. You thought she really WANTED YOU. I mean, what was all that flirting about? So you push on, but she pushes back. She's having second thoughts now. She's not sure she wants to go through with it. But you're all hot and ready to go! She can't do this to you. It's not fair! If she didn't want it, why did she come up to your room. So you press on . . "

Well if that isn't the presursor to rape,I don't know what is..
There is NO excuse for ''pressing on".

Let me ask you this..
Have you ever had somebody squeeze your genitals against
your will??
Squeeze them hard and you are helpless to get them to stop..
Just imagine that moment..
you can't get your arm/arms free to get them to stop...
Ok..now try this one..
You are rolling around,thinking there will be sex...
but there is not..except the woman "presses on"..your scrotal area and penis are suddenly grabbed and pinched very hard..
meanwhile you just wanted to stop..there was not going to be a sexual act that time.. But wait a minute..you engaged her in the pretense of having sex...The pain and horrible experience continues.
Unaroused organs are painful ! with rough treatment.
But it's your own fault..you started it...right??



This is my point..
there is no such excuse as "I couldn't stop.."
please !


----------



## Talkhard

If it matters, JJ, I always stop when the girl says "stop." That's just me. I tend to believe what people tell me. But half the time when I stop the girl looks at me like I'm nuts. See, girls play a little game. They tell you to "Stop" and they resist you, but part of them wants you to overwhelm them so that whatever happens is out of their hands. They just go along for the ride. 

But, as I said, I always stop. And I usually kick myself later.


----------



## bfan1

*...*

The BS and ouright "spew" appearing in this thread is nauseating


----------



## Kmurph

So now the 19yr old girl is just a goldigger and just wanted to "get it on" with Kobe, and then had second thoughts? Why is that there are so many people so quick to jump to that conclusion? Sure, it must be the girl, Kobe is just a victim, unflippinbelievable! Let's see here, Kobe lied & commited adultery, but we should take his word over hers? Why? b\c he is a celebrity? Personally, I don't see the gain in it for her, where is the reward for her? money? ah don't think so,,, fame? give me a break... The only thing I can think of is spite, and this is a lot for a person to put themselves through for the sake of spite.

And all this American Idol, want to be a star conjecture is pure garbage, talk about stepping out on a limb. So what if she tried out for American Idol? Does that instantly make her a sleaze? What a ridiculous leap of logic. It all comes down to physical evidence, unless the DA has something else up his sleeve. Kobe and his hired "PR hitmen" he calls a defense team, the best money can buy I might add, will try to do a vicious number on this girls integrity. I feel sorry for her, not Kobe. Kobe made his own bed and now he can lie in it for all I care. Unless the DA has rock solid evidence he will probably get off anyway, and if he really did do what he is accused of, there will be a great shame on our american legal system. But what else is new, this country is rotting under the stench of political correrctness and judicial liberalism anyway. I mean when you have a legal system that can allow a murderer to get off scott free, b\c crucial damming evidence was inadmissable b\c of an inproper search warrant (never mind the fact that it proves they commited a murder!), or a RICH\FAMOUS person can get off b\c his "best that money can buy" defense TEAM can hamstring a underpayed and overworked DA with paperwork and frivilous legal manueverings, you have a truly pathetic state of affairs, and a country that has lost sight of what is TRULY right and wrong. 

This whole "Kobe trial" and others like it make me sick. He may not be guilty of rape, but he is hardly the victim of an unfair advantage here. So much for my soapbox. I do not look forward to being over saturated with news on this trial.


----------



## Masbee

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2003/0720/1583145.html

A MAJOR bombshell has come out that the accuser may have tried to commit suicide - even if half-heartedly - 2 months prior to the incident.

If true, this goes a long, long, way to giving the defense ammo to help create a plausible explanation for why, oh why, this woman would/could make these accusations.

This case appears to be headed ultimately toward a he-said/she-said battle. In those cases credibility and motive is everything.

It is hard to imagine a motive for Kobe in terms of sex. Maybe he couldn't have her, but he can have most any other woman he wants. So it would have to be explained by him being a criminal, sociopath or based on the earlier quote by a friend of the accuser, an explanation for why Kobe "snapped", ie, drugs, etc.

Additionally the story talks about her upset over losing a high school boyfriend. The level of her upset makes it highly likely she had a sexual relationship with this boyfriend. So we can throw out some of the early insinuations that Kobe took advantage of a virginal young girl.

Some have characterized her as a "cheerleader", "choir singer", "nice person", "honor student", "normal and untroubled with no reason to lie", implying this was an innocent, honest, studious, virginal, very young girl and therefore has no motive or reason under this or any other sun to lie, fabricate or exaggerate. 

Now that will be gone. The defense will be free to make their case. And the defense will be free to begin their work of painting a picture of a troubled, confused, medicated, sexually active and willing sex partner who was the one who "snapped".

There was much made in the media of the townsfolk rallying around her, as if 3,700 really know this woman RIGHT NOW. How many of them knew she was so upset at losing a boyfriend that she almost overdosed on pills (if this is true)? I would say most of the town “knows” who she really is about as well as they know who Kobe really is. Their rallying around her is about as meaningful as most of those who rally around Kobe.


----------



## jackiejackal

*thanks for some thoughtful conversation*

This is never an easy legal matter..
let's hope things turn out well for the TRUTHFUL PERSON..whoever
that may be..


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Masbee</b>!
> 
> If true, this goes a long, long, way to giving the defense ammo to help create a plausible explanation for why, oh why, this woman would/could make these accusations.


How does it do that? She's depressed, thus she became a Kobe-entrapper? What does one have to do with the other? To my experience, those in such deep depression are pretty unmotivated and aren't particularly interested in money, etc.



> This case appears to be headed ultimately toward a he-said/she-said battle. In those cases credibility and motive is everything.


This I disagree with entirely. If the case were ultimately headed for "he-said/she-said," the district attorney, unless he's an idiot, wouldn't have filed charges. The chances of winning a "he-said/she-said," as the prosecutor, with no compelling evidence, is essentially nil.

Him being a more expert law-talking-guy than me, he'd know that.



> It is hard to imagine a motive for Kobe in terms of sex.


It's an old truism, these things are rarely about sex. Why would Tyson rape Desiree Washington, for sex? Even if she didn't want him, as a millionaire athlete he could have found plenty of very attractive women attracted to his money and fame to have sex with.

So, the fact that this doesn't make sense in terms of sex is likely irrelevant. These types of incidents happen due to sense of entitlement or desire to exercise power or similar issues. As Kobe Bryant has been told since he was 17-18 that he's the golden boy, and he's been the most beloved celebrity in Southern California for the last few years, it makes perfect sense that he could have "bought the hype" that he deserved anything he wanted, especially in some "small, hick town" (not my viewpoint, just the possible viewpoint that could go along with such a mentality) and was outraged to be turned down.

Now, I'm not saying that's what happened. I just made that up. What I'm saying is that there are reasons why Bryant could have done this that make sense from a psychological point of view, without him being a pure sociopath or a druggie. He could simply be another athlete who's lost sense of reality and lives in his own world. He may not have meant it maliciously, he just had lost sense of what he can and can't do for that night.



> Some have characterized her as a "cheerleader", "choir singer", "nice person", "honor student", "normal and untroubled with no reason to lie", implying this was an innocent, honest, studious, virginal, very young girl and therefore has no motive or reason under this or any other sun to lie, fabricate or exaggerate.
> 
> Now that will be gone.


Honestly, I don't see the connection between "virginal" and all the rest. You can be a non-virgin and still be a cheerleader, choir singer, a nice person, an honour student, and a nice normal person with no reason to lie.

The suicide attempt will, of course, be played up as evidence that she's entirely off her nut and has a desire to take down humanity with her, as she dies. However, I doubt that's actually accurate, and so it'll be up to the jury to decide whether a half-hearted suicide attempt and the fact that she's had sex before overturns everything else that's been asserted about her (the laundry list above).



> Their rallying around her is about as meaningful as most of those who rally around Kobe.


I don't think that's entirely accurate either. Just because you don't know every single bit of a person's life doesn't mean you know them as little as a celebrity who lives a thousand miles away.

If you didn't know your sister had nearly overdosed on pills, would you then say, "I know my sister as well as I know Kobe Bryant, which is to say not at all"? I doubt it.

The people of the town still probably know this girl better than they know Kobe. If they've interacted with her and found her to be an honest, sweet girl and she's been an active member of the community who's never been in trouble, then I think their rallying around her is meaningful. Not conclusive (just because someone has always been a great person, doesn't mean they won't do something wrong) but still perfectly meaningful.

More meaningful than: "Kobe Bryant is a great player for my favourite team, so he didn't do it."


----------



## Masbee

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> How does it do that? She's depressed, thus she became a Kobe-entrapper? What does one have to do with the other? To my experience, those in such deep depression are pretty unmotivated and aren't particularly interested in money, etc.


No. She's depressed, thus her behavior is erratic and she could do things that are out of character. I never said "deep" depression. That's impossible or she wouldn't have able to work.



> This I disagree with entirely. If the case were ultimately headed for "he-said/she-said," the district attorney, unless he's an idiot, wouldn't have filed charges. The chances of winning a "he-said/she-said," as the prosecutor, with no compelling evidence, is essentially nil.


He certainly knows more about law than you or I. However, I wouldn't put too much into it. He appeared to be VERY green in the press conferences. He is also the DA for a small, out of the way county. This is not a guy on the fast track. I wouldn't call him an idiot yet, but just because he filed charges, doesn't prove to me, well, pretty much anything.

There are rumors of physical evidence and rumors of a tapped phone "confession". Who knows? But lets assume there is little to this corroboration. Why would the inexperienced, small county DA press charges anyway? Because the case is strong enough to go forward without legal repercussions even if he thinks it is a "loser" and the PR will do wonders for his career. It is mostly large city DA's that are almost criminally worried about every case they bring being a slam-dunk winner, as they are angling for a political career. This guy could believe in this girl and be up for the good fight - David vs. Goliath thing.



> It's an old truism, these things are rarely about sex. Why would Tyson rape Desiree Washington, for sex? Even if she didn't want him, as a millionaire athlete he could have found plenty of very attractive women attracted to his money and fame to have sex with.


Sorry Minstrel, you completely lose me when you bring up Mike Tyson in a discussion with Kobe Bryant - or almost anybody else for that matter. Mike Tyson is certifiable - a nut job's nut job, and on top of that has a low IQ and a stunted, child-like personality. I don't know if Kobe Bryant "snapped" and forced himself on this woman or not (rape), but even if he did, these are not the same type of people.



> So, the fact that this doesn't make sense in terms of sex is likely irrelevant. These types of incidents happen due to sense of entitlement or desire to exercise power or similar issues. As Kobe Bryant has been told since he was 17-18 that he's the golden boy, and he's been the most beloved celebrity in Southern California for the last few years, it makes perfect sense that he could have "bought the hype" that he deserved anything he wanted, especially in some "small, hick town" (not my viewpoint, just the possible viewpoint that could go along with such a mentality) and was outraged to be turned down.
> 
> Now, I'm not saying that's what happened. I just made that up. What I'm saying is that there are reasons why Bryant could have done this that make sense from a psychological point of view, without him being a pure sociopath or a druggie. He could simply be another athlete who's lost sense of reality and lives in his own world. He may not have meant it maliciously, he just had lost sense of what he can and can't do for that night.


yep. All of this is possible, and I have already said as much in other posts. My ramblings here are more focused on the early presentation in the media from her friends that the woman went up to Kobe's room innocently and he "snapped" on her. If that is her statement the prosecutor now has in his hand, he is in big trouble IMO. I can fathom Kobe "snapping" in the middle of a consensual sexual encounter, but I just find it implausible that he would jump her out of the blue because he "wanted" her and she said no. Feelings of entitlement and celebrity power are one thing, but to think Kobe is so stupid and out of touch with reality that he thinks he should be able to grab any human that strikes his fancy doesn’t make a lot of sense. 




> I don't think that's entirely accurate either. Just because you don't know every single bit of a person's life doesn't mean you know them as little as a celebrity who lives a thousand miles away.
> 
> If you didn't know your sister had nearly overdosed on pills, would you then say, "I know my sister as well as I know Kobe Bryant, which is to say not at all"? I doubt it.
> 
> The people of the town still probably know this girl better than they know Kobe. If they've interacted with her and found her to be an honest, sweet girl and she's been an active member of the community who's never been in trouble, then I think their rallying around her is meaningful. Not conclusive (just because someone has always been a great person, doesn't mean they won't do something wrong) but still perfectly meaningful.
> 
> More meaningful than: "Kobe Bryant is a great player for my favourite team, so he didn't do it."


 I disagree. Just as Kobe wears his public mask, so does this woman. It is little different. When she is out in her town as a cheerleader, singer, in church, whatever - she wears that mask. This woman has dreams of becoming a star, of being a public figure. She is a performer. Why wouldn't she come across well in public? Why wouldn't she work hard to maintain a good "image"? Now, I am sure she can be a nice person and has a good and sweet personality that appeals to many people. So what? So does Kobe.

Behind closed doors it is all different. Behind closed doors Kobe commits adultery and who knows what else. Behind closed doors this woman took too many pills and likely had pre-marital sex and likely was considering committing adultery and who knows what else.

So how well do most of the townspeople "know" her. Even the ones that have seen her dozens of times. They only see her public face, just as most of the Kobe supporters only see his public face. And most certainly not well enough to form a reliable and useful opinion as to if she at this moment in time is capable of willingly having a fling with a celebrity, or being unstable or getting caught up in a web of lies. Positive affirmations of her or Kobe’s personality, character or past actions are near worthless from most. Only character witnesses that have a negative story, or those who are very, very close – family, roommates, best friends – have much value.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Masbee</b>!
> 
> No. She's depressed, thus her behavior is erratic and she could do things that are out of character. I never said "deep" depression. That's impossible or she wouldn't have able to work.


*I* said "deep depression." Suicidal tendencies suggest that. I wouldn't say work is impossible, as plenty of people have gone to work and then committed suicide, but trying to entrap someone would seem pretty improbable.



> He certainly knows more about law than you or I. However, I wouldn't put too much into it. He appeared to be VERY green in the press conferences. He is also the DA for a small, out of the way county.


He also consulted with all the DAs in the state, supposedly. Unless they're all green, backwards and inexperienced, one of them would have told him, "If all you have is her word against his, you have nothing."



> Why would the inexperienced, small county DA press charges anyway? Because the case is strong enough to go forward without legal repercussions even if he thinks it is a "loser" and the PR will do wonders for his career.


Assuming there is little actual evidence, I don't agree with you that losing a case he prosecuted with essentially no evidence would do "wonders for his career." To the contrary, if he's actually so stupid as to prosecute a case and lose it because he has no evidence, he'd be branded nationally as "a stupid, backwoods lawyer from a stupid, backwoods town." Even if he isn't looking for political office, I can't imagine he'd be long for his job after embarrassing the justice department in his town due to extreme, extreme negligence. Counties, especially small ones that aren't given a ton of respect nationally, don't take well to being nationally embarrassed. Their DA prosecuting Kobe with no good evidence would do just that.

The sheer contempt that would rain down on him from every part of the country, especially LA, which has a little media pull, wouldn't do anything good for his career that I can see. He'd essentially be the flavour of the moment for stupid jokes and then his name would be forgotten. That's how it generally seems to work.



> Sorry Minstrel, you completely lose me when you bring up Mike Tyson in a discussion with Kobe Bryant - or almost anybody else for that matter. Mike Tyson is certifiable - a nut job's nut job, and on top of that has a low IQ and a stunted, child-like personality. I don't know if Kobe Bryant "snapped" and forced himself on this woman or not (rape), but even if he did, these are not the same type of people.


My entire point is that Kobe need not have "snapped" to have done this. The term "snapped" is probably an exaggeration, as I, also, have trouble believing Kobe turned into wild animal who knew no reason. Perhaps the Tyson example was bad because he *may* have really snapped, but substitute any athlete who was involved in a sex crime. They don't have to be criminally insane or go crazy like a wild beast...they can simply believe they can do no wrong.



> My ramblings here are more focused on the early presentation in the media from her friends that the woman went up to Kobe's room innocently and he "snapped" on her. If that is her statement the prosecutor now has in his hand, he is in big trouble IMO.


My assumption is that he's not going to base his entire attack on the term "snapped." He can play that off as poor word choice by a young girl fumbling to explain a traumatic experience. More than likely, he'll get a much more coherent and polished statement out of her for purposes of prosecution.

Whether that statement is made up or just a better explanation of what really happened is, of course, the question.



> I disagree. Just as Kobe wears his public mask, so does this woman. It is little different. When she is out in her town as a cheerleader, singer, in church, whatever - she wears that mask. This woman has dreams of becoming a star, of being a public figure. She is a performer. Why wouldn't she come across well in public? Why wouldn't she work hard to maintain a good "image"? Now, I am sure she can be a nice person and has a good and sweet personality that appeals to many people. So what? So does Kobe.


I don't think this is an "on / off" switch...that either you know *everything* about a person, or know *nothing* except their mask. When you live in the same small town with a person, there's no way she can wear her mask without a single crack for every public moment of her life from birth. People at school, people at her church, people in various social situations have surely seen her when she's had to react to good things and bad things without a chance for rehearsal.

We're talking about nineteen years here, living with these people. Sure, there are things she'll always be able to keep private...but the idea that *nothing* of her real character would have surfaced in nineteen years of interacting with people would make her seem like some kind of alien, completely capable of sublimating all human reactions.

Again, I'm not saying that they know her beyond a shadow of a doubt and that what they say is conclusive. But they should know something about who she is, more than LA residents know about Kobe Bryant, a person they never interact with in real life, they only see when he's composed himself for cameras. This girl has to live life raw...she can't rehearse real life...if someone picks a fight with her, or something gets stolen from her, etc...she has to deal with that on the fly.

So I can't agree that since the townspeople don't know every last detail about her, they know as little as LA residents know about the reclusive Kobe Bryant.


----------



## Masbee

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> *I* said "deep depression." Suicidal tendencies suggest that. I wouldn't say work is impossible, as plenty of people have gone to work and then committed suicide, but trying to entrap someone would seem pretty improbable.


As does the idea of Kobe raping someone. The question is, which improbable action occurred.



> He also consulted with all the DAs in the state, supposedly. Unless they're all green, backwards and inexperienced, one of them would have told him, "If all you have is her word against his, you have nothing."


Minstrel the public already knows there is more to this case than just her word. But, it is very plausible that despite an array of testimony and evidence, a great defense team could effectively diffuse or eliminate all or nearly all of it, boiling the case down to he-said/she-said.



> Assuming there is little actual evidence, I don't agree with you that losing a case he prosecuted with essentially no evidence would do "wonders for his career." To the contrary, if he's actually so stupid as to prosecute a case and lose it because he has no evidence, he'd be branded nationally as "a stupid, backwoods lawyer from a stupid, backwoods town." Even if he isn't looking for political office, I can't imagine he'd be long for his job after embarrassing the justice department in his town due to extreme, extreme negligence. Counties, especially small ones that aren't given a ton of respect nationally, don't take well to being nationally embarrassed. Their DA prosecuting Kobe with no good evidence would do just that.
> 
> The sheer contempt that would rain down on him from every part of the country, especially LA, which has a little media pull, wouldn't do anything good for his career that I can see. He'd essentially be the flavour of the moment for stupid jokes and then his name would be forgotten. That's how it generally seems to work.


I cannot disagree with your point more strongly. There is an old saying in PR that applies in here: Bad publicity is better than NO publicity. He is a DA for a small county far removed from the mover and shaker cities of the U.S. Of course, he would love to win the case and look brilliant. But all he really has to do is not look like an idiot and he will have gained immeasurably. He will get to play off the "Kobe Bryant's income is greater than the entire DA office's budget" as a buffer for failure. It is a great opportunity to make a mark, potentially a once in a lifetime opportunity.



> My entire point is that Kobe need not have "snapped" to have done this. The term "snapped" is probably an exaggeration, as I, also, have trouble believing Kobe turned into wild animal who knew no reason. Perhaps the Tyson example was bad because he *may* have really snapped, but substitute any athlete who was involved in a sex crime. They don't have to be criminally insane or go crazy like a wild beast...they can simply believe they can do no wrong.
> 
> My assumption is that he's not going to base his entire attack on the term "snapped." He can play that off as poor word choice by a young girl fumbling to explain a traumatic experience. More than likely, he'll get a much more coherent and polished statement out of her for purposes of prosecution.


Too bad her statement will already be on record. And if the unfortunate use of the word "snapped" is there, it can't be erased or polished up after the fact.



> I don't think this is an "on / off" switch...that either you know *everything* about a person, or know *nothing* except their mask. When you live in the same small town with a person, there's no way she can wear her mask without a single crack for every public moment of her life from birth. People at school, people at her church, people in various social situations have surely seen her when she's had to react to good things and bad things without a chance for rehearsal.
> 
> We're talking about nineteen years here, living with these people. Sure, there are things she'll always be able to keep private...but the idea that *nothing* of her real character would have surfaced in nineteen years of interacting with people would make her seem like some kind of alien, completely capable of sublimating all human reactions.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying that they know her beyond a shadow of a doubt and that what they say is conclusive. But they should know something about who she is, more than LA residents know about Kobe Bryant, a person they never interact with in real life, they only see when he's composed himself for cameras. This girl has to live life raw...she can't rehearse real life...if someone picks a fight with her, or something gets stolen from her, etc...she has to deal with that on the fly.
> 
> So I can't agree that since the townspeople don't know every last detail about her, they know as little as LA residents know about the reclusive Kobe Bryant.


This attitude is a trap. It is something that some of the jurors may fall for - the idea that they "know" this girl through osmosis or something. Just because they are in the same town as her, have been in her presence, like her and have seen the "real" her through thick and thin, that they can rely on her credibility, Kobe is in trouble.

If Kobe Bryant can "snap" and do something as horrible as rape, why can't this woman "snap" and tell a lie?

You are implying that Kobe is unknown and trustworthy because he is "reclusive" is just silly. He is around people all the time and is constantly being recorded - so much so, he likely sometimes doesn't know when he is being recorded or not or forgets about the camera. There is probably more of the "real" Kobe on tape than this woman has displayed in public. I don't buy the Kobe = reclusive = gets to hide his "true" feelings, reactions and personality from nearly everyone vs. Eagle woman = not reclusive = whole town sees the "real" her and knows her feelings, reactions and personality.

You interview enough people that are character witnesses to either party and you can begin to build a picture equally accurate about both. But, in the end it doesn't really matter, as in this situation it seems for the moment that we have an incident where one of the actors was out of character. The exception occurred, not the norm. If so, learning about the norm will be of marginal usefulness.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Masbee</b>!
> 
> As does the idea of Kobe raping someone. The question is, which improbable action occurred.


Sure. I'm saying that this new revelation doesn't really change the improbabilities. Your contention seemed to be that this meant the girl was more likely, then thought before, to entrap him.



> I cannot disagree with your point more strongly. There is an old saying in PR that applies in here: Bad publicity is better than NO publicity. He is a DA for a small county far removed from the mover and shaker cities of the U.S. Of course, he would love to win the case and look brilliant. But all he really has to do is not look like an idiot and he will have gained immeasurably.


Yes, but you just noted the key point...he has to "not look like an idiot." If he has no compelling evidence, and chose to forge ahead anyway, he *will* look like an idiot.



> Too bad her statement will already be on record. And if the unfortunate use of the word "snapped" is there, it can't be erased or polished up after the fact.


It doesn't have to be. All that has to happen is that the jurors have to be swayed that her first words on the subject would of course be less precise than later words, because she was still dealing with the horror of it all. That's probably not to hard to do because if it actually happened, her first words on the subject probably *would* be inexact. Who comes out of a trauma speaking eloquently and giving exactly the right words? To a rape victim, immediately after the incident, all aggressive movement *might* seem like a "snapping"...things are much more lurid right after the fact.

Then also, there's what each person means by "snapped." You seem to take that word to suggest Kobe went from a nice, smiling guy to a horrifying monster in an instant. Someone else might mean "snapped" as went from sweet and kind to angry. A husband might snap in an argument with his wife, and that doesn't mean he strikes her or kills her..it might just mean he says something unkind that he later regrets.

There's gradations to the word "snapped," thus I can't imagine that specific word is going to figure in very much to how the jury finds the defendant.



> This attitude is a trap. It is something that some of the jurors may fall for - the idea that they "know" this girl through osmosis or something.


No, not through osmosis. Through interaction. That's how we know anyone. I'm not referring to townspeople who lived in the same town but never had any meaningful interaction. I'm talking about classmates, teachers, parents of classmates, people she interacted with at church every week. Again, I don't agree with the notion that either you know everything or you know nothing. There's a spectrum.



> If Kobe Bryant can "snap" and do something as horrible as rape, why can't this woman "snap" and tell a lie?


She could. Thus my twice-made comment that the townspeople knowing her isn't *conclusive*. It's just more evidence for her character.



> You are implying that Kobe is unknown and trustworthy because he is "reclusive" is just silly.


Your taking something I never said and labelling it "silly" is even sillier. I assume you mean "*un*trustworthy," and I never said Kobe is untrustworthy because he is reclusive. I just said LA residents would see less of him and interact with him less, thus know him less. Where in any of that did I bring up the concept of trustworthiness or lack thereof?



> He is around people all the time and is constantly being recorded - so much so, he likely sometimes doesn't know when he is being recorded or not or forgets about the camera.


Because he's on camera and being recorded so much, he probably has a much more powerful mask, as a trained defense mechanism, than some random high school girl. She has no reason to hide her true self, unless she somehow knew that someday in the future she'd entrap Kobe Bryant, lie about rape and thus has been playing the part of nice girl for nineteen years in readiness.



> I don't buy the Kobe = reclusive = gets to hide his "true" feelings, reactions and personality from nearly everyone vs. Eagle woman = not reclusive = whole town sees the "real" her and knows her feelings, reactions and personality.


Again, with your "it must be one extreme or the other." Kobe probably hasn't hidden every single part of himself from everyone in existence and the girl probably hasn't trumpeted her every private feeling and thought to every member of her sommunity.

However, a girl who, maybe until now, had nothing to hide is definitely less likely to tightly contain who she really is then a celebrity who's life plays out in the papers and on TV and is the target of attacks all the time.



> But, in the end it doesn't really matter, as in this situation it seems for the moment that we have an incident where one of the actors was out of character. The exception occurred, not the norm. If so, learning about the norm will be of marginal usefulness.


To some extent that's true, but that still leaves an equally meaningful question: Which of the two was *more* likely to break character? Which lands us right back into the character issue, as both sides will try to prove the other was.

In any case, Masbee, you can have the last word on this and then it can end. I can't say I care enough about Bryant to argue this further...three fairly long posts seems actually more involved than my interest in Bryant.  We can agree to disagree, as I believe we pretty fundamentally disagree on this.

I guess the reason I debated this even this much is because, according to the article I read on this, she had just lost a friend to a traffic accident death and she found out her boyfriend had taken up with someone else...so in a really tough moment she purposely or accidentally overdosed on some pills. To spin that as she's a medicated, hysterical girl that can't be trusted, as Kobe's defense will surely do, seems like a clear miscarriage of the truth. If that, in fact, gets him off...it smacks of yet another athlete getting a free pass on a technicality.

Yes, technically, she overdosed on a drug, but it was months ago at a desperate time in her life, harming no one but herself. Anyone with some sense can see that circumstances were extreme and it's unlikely that this is her standard mode of behaviour.

So the fact that, according to this article, Kobe could walk, whether he did commit rape or not, simply because the defense found a technicality, is another blow to the integrity of the Justice system, if that happens. According to the article, this could shut down the case before it even goes to trial.


----------



## Masbee

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> In any case, Masbee, you can have the last word on this and then it can end. I can't say I care enough about Bryant to argue this further...three fairly long posts seems actually more involved than my interest in Bryant.  We can agree to disagree, as I believe we pretty fundamentally disagree on this.


:laugh: before I got to this paragraph, I was going to say pretty much the same thing. Ditto. Ciao.


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## ebott

*So long Kobe*

I think he's screwed. It doesn't matter who he is or the character of the accuser or any of that. What matters is the evidence that will be presented to the jury of his peers that are going to send him to jail for a long long time.

After his arrest and before deciding to press charges the DA was asked what was going to happen time and time again. And time and time again the DA always said something like the decision as to whether or not to press charges will come down to physical evidence. He said that he would not bring this to court if it's just a he said she said kind of a thing. I think they've got a mountain of physical evidence or they wouldn't have pressed charges. 

Maybe Kobe's Lawyers can some how do away with said evidence with some legal trick. OJ had a mountain of physical evidence against him as well.

But if all is said and done and the doctor that examined her gets up on the stand and says that the injuries she had on the night in question are because she was raped. Kobe's got nothing and then he's off to prison. Rape isn't about sex. It's about violence and power. Two things Kobe's not gonna have the upper hand in when his cell mate gets frisky.


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## Talkhard

> "Rape isn't about sex. It's about violence and power."


I've heard this a million times, and I still don't believe it. If all you wanted to do was show a woman how violent and powerful you were, you could just beat her up. Or trash her house. Or kill her, for that matter. 

Guys who rape women want to have sex. They may enjoy rough sex, or they may enjoy forcing the woman to go along, but their primary goal is sexual gratification. To say that rape isn't about sex is like saying that playing baskeball isn't about playing basketball.


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## Blazer Ringbearer

uhhh... great analogy.

If all someone wanted was sex and they couldn't get it normally, they'd hire a damn prostitute.

Rape is certainly about control. The most humiliating and derogatory thing you can do to a woman is force her into sex when she doesn't want it, not beat her up... but sometimes that's part of the whole process anyways.

You don't have to be some sort of psychopath or criminal mastermind to commit rape. It happens so much more than anyone realizes by seemingly normal folks. Hell, fratboys do it all the time and get away with it...

To say that rape isn't about control and violence is like saying that talking on message boards isn't about talking on message boards... hey, i can do it too!


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## Talkhard

Okay, Blazer Ringbearer . . . So, if the girl in Colorado is telling the truth, and Kobe Bryant raped her, then he did it just to be violent and powerful? It had nothing to do with him being far away from his wife, feeling horny, and wanting to have sex with a pretty girl he had just met?

Is that what you are saying? I just want to be clear.


----------



## Blazer Ringbearer

No, I'm not going to go so far as to say that sex has nothing to do with it - guys always want sex. But in my opinion the control aspect is a bigger player and at the very least, an equal player...

It takes a special person to stomach forcing someone like that, the crying and screaming involved. I shudder to think of it, it's beyond a normal healthy sex act, that many men seem to seek out. The fact that some people get off on that makes me absolutely sick...

I'm sorry if I was a little curt with you, but it's early and I haven't had my coffee yet this morning. I'm also a bit sensitive about these issues. I realize that we're not in complete disagreement, more one of levels I think.

Cheers


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## jackiejackal

*Wow..do some research,talk to experts*

"quote: 
"Rape isn't about sex. It's about violence and power." 


"I've heard this a million times, and I still don't believe it. If all you wanted to do was show a woman how violent and powerful you were, you could just beat her up. Or trash her house. Or kill her, for that matter. "

Rape isn't about sex. It's about violence and power .
To the people who think otherwise..
You may not believe it.. You are wrong !
It scares me of what your response was..

RAPE ISN'T ABOUT SEX.IT'S ABOUT VIOLENCE AND POWER..
believe it,and if you don't please seek out all the experts !!


----------



## ABM

*Re: Wow..do some research,talk to experts*



> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> 
> RAPE ISN'T ABOUT SEX.IT'S ABOUT VIOLENCE AND POWER..
> believe it,and if you don't please seek out all the experts !!


If your definition of "POWER" includes "control", "pride", and "selfishness", then I concur with that remark.


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## jackiejackal

*this is unbelievable*

"It had nothing to do with him being far away from his wife, feeling horny, and wanting to have sex with a pretty girl he had just met?"

No means no..
what on earth does HIS personal feelings have to do with TAKING
something from another person????
Number 2..do me a favor..
Don't get married..
Feeling horny and wanting sex????
so just drop your drawwers and have sex with anyone????

this is astounding to hear..
how old are you??


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## jackiejackal

*these two things to me don't figure in*

Or have I ever encountered anyone else including them..
"pride", and "selfishness" as a rape issue..

Violence doesn't mean a hatchet in your hand...
violence can be inflicted without hardly a trace noted..
my goodness,how can this issue be so completly misunderstood???


----------



## ABM

*Re: these two things to me don't figure in*



> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> Or have I ever encountered anyone else including them..
> "pride", and "selfishness" as a rape issue..
> 
> Violence doesn't mean a hatchet in your hand...
> violence can be inflicted without hardly a trace noted..
> my goodness,how can this issue be so completly misunderstood???


That's why I used the word "includes". Power, in and of itself, can mean far more than control, pride, and selfishness, BUT, they can be contributors.


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## Talkhard

> this is unbelievable (post #163)
> 
> "It had nothing to do with him being far away from his wife, feeling horny, and wanting to have sex with a pretty girl he had just met?"
> 
> No means no..
> what on earth does HIS personal feelings have to do with TAKING
> something from another person????
> Number 2..do me a favor..
> Don't get married..
> Feeling horny and wanting sex????
> so just drop your drawwers and have sex with anyone????
> 
> this is astounding to hear..
> how old are you??


Calm down, JJ. You're going to explode if you get any more worked up. You are missing my point. Of course "no" means no. If Kobe raped this girl, then he was wrong. There's no doubt about that. I'm also NOT condoning picking up a girl for casual sex when you are married. So please, take a breath . . .

What I AM suggesting is that Kobe's motivation for calling the girl to his room was to have sex with her. Not to do violence to her, and not to control her. Just to have sex with her. Okay? 

Now, if he got carried away, and kept going when the girl said no and tried to fight him off, then he raped her. Period. And it was wrong.

But my original point was that "rape" can begin as a sexual impulse, a need for sexual gratification. It doesn't necessarily begin with a guy thinking to himself, "I'm going to go out and find some woman I can do violence to."

And by the way, I don't care what the so-called "experts" say about rape. The "experts" in medicine used to think that bleeding was a cure for most things that ailed you. "Experts" also used to think the world was flat, tomatoes were poisonous, and birds were descendants of dinosaurs.


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## Blazer Ringbearer

How about this for a theory?

Let's say the original motivation for many rape cases, especially those of the date rape category are sexual gratification. I think there's a lot of truth to this.

However, once the "no" has been clearly established, the choice to continue is no longer just an act of sex. It is an act of anger, agression, and asserting control... sexual desire is still involved, yes, but I think at this point it takes a backseat once the line of human decency has been crossed.

Hopefully this makes sense, and perhaps it's something that we can agree on...

Cheers


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## Talkhard

I'm VERY impressed, Blazer Ringbearer. Your position has evolved dramatically. I think we're now saying about the same thing.

I would just add that those impulses of "anger, aggression, and asserting control" that you mention are all in furtherance of the initial impulse--to obtain sexual gratification. In other words, the guy isn't getting his rocks off by getting angry and violent--he's getting angry and violent because the woman is trying to prevent him from getting his rocks off.


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## Blazer Ringbearer

Ehhh... I still think there's a little more to it than that. It is really awful, but I think there are people out there who actually would prefer rape to a normal sexual encounter.


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## jackiejackal

*TALKHARD YOU WERE RUDE TO SAY THAT*

But anyway..
if you are interested in the experts say..
i would be glad to share a boatload of info with you..
I work with all experts on it..
guess I would be more willing to believe them than you..

To even suggest that comparison to the world being flat..etc..
pulease !
Medical opinions on the subject are a little more advanced than that.
That was just down right ignorant.

here is what you said



"Calm down, JJ. You're going to explode if you get any more worked up. You are missing my point. Of course "no" means no. If Kobe raped this girl, then he was wrong. There's no doubt about that. I'm also NOT condoning picking up a girl for casual sex when you are married. So please, take a breath . . .

What I AM suggesting is that Kobe's motivation for calling the girl to his room was to have sex with her. Not to do violence to her, and not to control her. Just to have sex with her. Okay? 


I suggest you read the first part of what you said..
then read the second..

Then go back to my original post..
no my not friend..
you are the one who missed the point of my post.


"But my original point was that "rape" can begin as a sexual impulse, a need for sexual gratification. It doesn't necessarily begin with a guy thinking to himself, "I'm going to go out and find some woman I can do violence to."

ask the experts who work with these jerks in custody every day
why they rape..
you won't hear because of sexual gratification !!!!!!
it is a power activity..
in fact,a high percent of these guys are impotent !!!!!
a high percent have never had a meaningful sexual relationship..
THEY AREN'T INTERESTED IN THAT !!

PLEASE..
educate yourself on this..

"he's getting angry and violent because the woman is trying to prevent him from getting his rocks off."
ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT THIS WOULD BRING VIOLENT BEHAVIOR BECAUSE SHE IS PREVENTING HIM FROM SEX???????????

oh my god..
you have some very un healthy thinking here.
no woman deserves violent behaviour from any man over sex.!!!!
that shocks me to hear that from you..
seek help.


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## Ed O

*Re: TALKHARD YOU WERE RUDE TO SAY THAT*



> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> "he's getting angry and violent because the woman is trying to prevent him from getting his rocks off."
> ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT THIS WOULD BRING VIOLENT BEHAVIOR BECAUSE SHE IS PREVENTING HIM FROM SEX???????????
> 
> oh my god..
> you have some very un healthy thinking here.
> no woman deserves violent behaviour from any man over sex.!!!!
> that shocks me to hear that from you..
> seek help.


I don't see him say that she deserves it (or, indeed that ANY woman deserves it)... in fact, it seems like it's the opposite.

When a person walks into a 7-11 with a gun and shoots the clerk because the clerk won't hand over the money in the register, did that person walk into the 7-11 to shoot someone?

At some level, that person did. He/she knew that having a gun left the possibility of a shooting, and some person would probably HOPE to get to shoot someone. Because some people are sick. 

Similarly, in the case of some rapes, it seems that the man (since rape cases are almost always by men) might be interested in copulating, but when his purposes are frustrated, he resorts to violence (like the person in the 7-11). Certainly not ALL cases (because some people are sick), but some.

It seems to me that THAT was the point that TalkHard was trying to make (my apologies if I'm incorrect, TH).

Ed O.


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## s a b a s 11

Man, I never realized the scope of this until this weekend.

Or maybe I didn't care too much, which i'm sure played a big part.

This is going to be huge.

The guy's reputation is gone.

Hmmm.

Stuart


----------



## Talkhard

> "no woman deserves violent behaviour from any man over sex.!!!!
> that shocks me to hear that from you..
> seek help.


You insist on misreading my statements, JJ. I never said a woman deserved violent behavior. I was merely trying to explain how one thing can lead to another, and end up with a rape. I won't be discussing this with you any more. It's impossible to have a rational discussion with you.

And yes, Ed O, you summarized my point pretty well.


----------



## jackiejackal

*But read your quote again*

"I was merely trying to explain how one thing can lead to another, and end up with a rape."

If one thing leads to another,and it turns into a rape,wow..
we have fallen far.
I don't believe you realize the depth of that comment.

By the way..
please don't single me out and say it's not a rational discussion.
I think you are squirming abit under the heat of it myself.

I think I have represented myself here quite well.


----------



## Public Defender

> Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!
> the guy isn't getting his rocks off by getting angry and violent--he's getting angry and violent because the woman is trying to prevent him from getting his rocks off.


Actually, Talkhard, these are both possibilities. There are guys (not many, thank God) who get excited through exercising control via angry, violent sex... serial rapists, for example. 

And there are guys who get so get angry at the _control_ being exerted by a woman in saying "no" that they go ballistic and physically force themselves on women. Bottom line: rape is about sex, yes, but it's more about control. Talk to any psychologist or rape counselor - rape is about domination


----------



## Talkhard

> Talk to any psychologist or rape counselor - rape is about domination


I don't want to re-state my position yet again, but I will offer one more example and then stop: Incest. In one of the most common forms of incest, father-daughter, the man is using the daughter for sexual gratification that he cannot get from his wife, perhaps because she has gained weight, has more wrinkles than she used to, or is not interested in sex anymore. When this happens, the man's daughter starts to look good to him. Hate to be so blunt about it, but that's the way it often happens. And I know several incest victims personally, so I know that this is true.

So incest is a form of rape that is based, I believe, mainly on the need for sexual gratification.


----------



## jackiejackal

*My gosh ,you must be putting us on*

If you are not..
please contact me by email,and I will help you to find some classes that will allow you to see how wrong your thinking is..
please..


----------



## Public Defender

> Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!
> I don't want to re-state my position yet again, but I will offer one more example and then stop: Incest. In one of the most common forms of incest, father-daughter, the man is using the daughter for sexual gratification that he cannot get from his wife, perhaps because she has gained weight, has more wrinkles than she used to, or is not interested in sex anymore.


I've been following this thread, and I don't see the need for you to re-state your hypothesis, so thank you for not wasting space and time. As for a man's wife no longer looking good and this being a basis for looking elsewhere for sex, yes, it's true, this often happens. Men react to this situation in a number of different ways... those who have the money and the inclination may seek prostitutes... those who work with pretty young things who are interested in making time with a co-worker start affairs... those who can't find an attractive enough partner may start masterbating on a regular basis... and those with major hang-ups and control issues take out their sexual frustrations on acquaintances or their children... In the case of either rape or incest, the may be taking out their frustration over not being able to have sex by exerting control over a partner who will not fight back (or, they may be having sex in other ways, yet there's something sickly attractive about getting it on with a family member or someone else who isn't interested). The problem to solve might be "getting off" but the "solution" demonstrates a secondary predilection or need - a penchant for wanting to get it "his" way from whom he chooses.



> And I know several incest victims personally, so I know that this is true.
> 
> So incest is a form of rape that is based, I believe, mainly on the need for sexual gratification.


Rape is in part, about sexual gratification... the desire for sexual gratification (need is really too strong a word - we _can_ live without sex if we want to) . But, the key is that it's about gratification in the way of the attacker's choosing, at the time of his choosing, in the place of his choosing, and without regard for the partner's thoughts. If that's not *control*, what is?


----------



## Talkhard

> My gosh ,you must be putting us on (post #177)
> 
> If you are not..
> please contact me by email,and I will help you to find some classes that will allow you to see how wrong your thinking is..
> please..


I have to say, JJ, you are one of the most *deleted* I've ever seen. Who made you the authority on this subject, anyway? This is a "forum." That means we all have a right to express our opinions. So park your little sermons, please.



> I've been following this thread, and I don't see the need for you to re-state your hypothesis, so thank you for not wasting space and time.


As for you, Public Defender, what makes you think your opinion is not a "waste of space?" I find it amusing that you want to shut me down, but then feel free to pontificate on behalf of your own argument.


----------



## jackiejackal

*It wouldn't take an expert*

to see you have an odd definition of rape..
or even what is morally or publicly acceptable.
You can call me a name..doesn't bother me at all.
You need to find out from others that it's not my opinion
on this subject..I am stating that you need to research on your own.
I certainly have my faults,but you are tangling with someone
who knows better than you on this topic.
I am concerned about your view..for women's safety in the community.

I will bet if you do seek other opinions,you would apologize
to me.


----------



## Talkhard

> It wouldn't take an expert
> 
> to see you have an odd definition of rape..
> or even what is morally or publicly acceptable.


There you go again. I never said rape in any form was acceptable. Are you purposely trying to misread what I say, or do you just have a problem understanding English?



> I am concerned about your view..for women's safety in the community.


What the heck does that mean? Look, if you can't understand such a tricky subject, maybe you should go play somewhere else. You seem incapable of understanding any kind of subtlety.


----------



## BlayZa

wow what a suprise , people gettin personal over intellect on the blazers board....... *deleted*. Get over it and move on - its very very very unlikely any of you are going to persuade the other that their view is wrong or inaccurate or whatever - agree to disagree and stop the back n forward jabs... its starting to get kinda pathetic.


----------



## Anima

Here is a great article that I think people should read. 

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=disturbingbehav&prov=cnnsi&type=lgns


----------



## Public Defender

Good article, Epadfield, and I think Taylor hit the nail on the head - the fog in which professional athletes live only exaggerates the already dim understanding men have of women. 

Also, Taylor's probably right that if the defense can prove the woman involved attempted suicide a month ago, they'll probably win. Doesn't make it right, let alone _just_, though.


----------



## ABM

> Originally posted by <b>Public Defender</b>!
> Good article, Epadfield, and I think Taylor hit the nail on the head - the fog in which professional athletes live only exaggerates the already dim understanding men have of women.


:clap: :clap: :clap:


----------



## bfan1

*just because it had been asked before*



> "This information, the possibility of this indictment coming forward, Karl was very aware of that before he signed with the Lakers. And he still signed and believes they'll win the championship. He's looking forward to playing with Kobe and the other 10 members of the team."



The question had been asked if malone would have signed had he known...well...he may not have thought it would go down, but he knew. Dunno about GP but I don't think it would have swayed him in the least.




LINK


----------



## Ed O

*Re: just because it had been asked before*



> Originally posted by <b>bfan1</b>!
> 
> The question had been asked if malone would have signed had he known...well...he may not have thought it would go down, but he knew. Dunno about GP but I don't think it would have swayed him in the least.


But... but...

Character is more important than winning! Hasn't the bad reputation of the Blazers been scaring off players for years?

What are these players thinking?!?

 

Ed O.


----------



## ABM

*Interesting Account......*

.....From Denver Post

Upon reading it, though, I was wondering why the relatively short period of time between him checking into the resort (10 PM) -> to the incident -> to her being home by midnight (following a 30-minute drive)?

That part seems a bit odd, and doesn't add up, to me.


----------



## jackiejackal

*court tv lawyers took a poll among themselves*

And said the short timeframe helped the prosecution..


----------



## ABM

*Re: court tv lawyers took a poll among themselves*



> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> And said the short timeframe helped the prosecution..


Did they elaborate? That's curious to me.


----------



## s a b a s 11

*OT: Shock Jock Tom Leykis names Kobes accuser...*

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-lakers-bryantcase-radiohost&prov=ap&type=lgns

I hated this guy when I happened across his talk-show when I lived in Detroit. 

I despise him even more now in San Diego

STuart


----------



## Blazer Ringbearer

What an ***... would he feel that way if it were his daughter or sister? It pisses me off that he tries to justify it by saying it will be a "fair trial". Uhm, the people in the jury will know her name, and they don't need to know it ahead of time.

At least he could be honest about it and say that he did it to get attention and ratings instead of some self-righteous BS.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>Blazer Ringbearer</b>!
> What an ***... would he feel that way if it were his daughter or sister? It pisses me off that he tries to justify it by saying it will be a "fair trial". Uhm, the people in the jury will know her name, and they don't need to know it ahead of time.
> 
> At least he could be honest about it and say that he did it to get attention and ratings instead of some self-righteous BS.


Why do/should the people of the jury pool listen to a radio station in SoCal?

While I don't think that revealing information about the alleged victim will affect the fairness of the trial, there are other issues to be considered when dealing with a sensitive issue like sexual assault.

With this said, information about the woman WILL come out. At some point she needs to appear in court and testify in the trial. I'm not sure whether her name is known now or then really makes a difference.

Ed O.


----------



## Blazer Ringbearer

I'm saying that it has nothing to do with the fairness of the trial, and that's why it pisses me off that he justifies disrespecting this girl for that reason...

And her name would not be required to come out. It probably will anyway, but the judge could easily decide on a media free courtroom and sealed records.

Regardless, the American people have next to nil when it comes to facts and many are already slandering this girl as a slut or gold digger when they really have no idea. Adding a name to the face only adds fuel to the fire. Next you have cameras following her around, etc...

Kobe is also under fire, but he is the one accused of doing something terrible, not this girl. And he was already a public figure, subjected to constant media scrutiny. This girl was not and does not deserve to be just because she stood up for her right to say 'no'.

This guy is a real jerk, and I hope there are some sort of repercussions. It is crap like this that keeps so many girls from reporting rape and sexual assault. So many cases go unreported because of opinions like "she asked for it" blah blah... It's a big problem and guys like this aren't helping.

By the way, I don't think we have a fundamental disagreement on this, I am merely further justifying my response...

Cheers


----------



## s a b a s 11

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> Why do/should the people of the jury pool listen to a radio station in SoCal?
> 
> While I don't think that revealing information about the alleged victim will affect the fairness of the trial, there are other issues to be considered when dealing with a sensitive issue like sexual assault.
> 
> With this said, information about the woman WILL come out. At some point she needs to appear in court and testify in the trial. I'm not sure whether her name is known now or then really makes a difference.
> 
> Ed O.


I don't believe he is on the radio here in SD, but he has a very large contingent of listeners all around. 

I don't think it will affect the fairness either, just a classles thing to do.

Information will come out, but it'll be a much faster leak when broadcasted across the radio. This guy is a scumbag for doing so. He judged her by saying she was a "golddigger" and went about giving out her name. I haven't heard the actual show, but thats the account I have read.

Whether or not she turns out to be a golddigger, Tom Leykis is nothing but a glory-hound scumbag out to make a name for himself.

What a punk.

Stuart


----------



## Storyteller

The big news today is the $4 million ring that Kobe got for his wife on Monday. Although it was apparently ordered several weeks ago, the timing is...well....interesting.

It might be totally unrelated. But it does remind me of the famous story of George Burns and Gracie Allen. Gracie wanted a $750 silver centerpiece. George thought it was unnecessary, since they already had a nice centerpiece. Then Gracie found out about George having an affair. She didn't confront him, but he knew that she knew. He went out and bought the centerpiece, as well as a $10,000 diamond pin. Years later, Gracie was out shopping with a friend, saw something she liked (I don't remember what), and remarked that if only George had another affair....


----------



## bfan1

*Gag order issued*

LINK


----------



## Blazer Ringbearer

Gotta love the media...

Paraphrasing:

"A gag order was issued to stop the spread of rumours... here is a detailed account of the rumours..."

Absolutely beautiful.


----------



## bfan1

*It isn't her*

CNN.COM 


For crying out loud. What a mess and trial is months away. 

It's embarrassing that people are so .......


Thanks a bunch Kobe.


----------



## ABM

Wow.....

Check This Out....

This is gonna get REAL interesting before it's all said (testified) and done.


----------



## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant

Kobe is innocent.


----------



## Ed O

Tried to delete this post, but it won't let me. Sorry. 

Ed O.


----------



## ABM

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> Tried to delete this post, but it won't let me. Sorry.
> 
> Ed O.


 I had thoughts of that, too. Then, I glanced at the sig and sympathy prevailed.


----------



## Anima

> But the nature of the tabloidish coverage thus far has served to all but convict Bryant in the public eye.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=knight-allneutralitylostinthisme&prov=knight&type=lgns

I would like to know what this guy his talking about. Seems everywhere I look someone is defending Kobe not convicting him.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>Epadfield</b>!
> 
> I would like to know what this guy his talking about. Seems everywhere I look someone is defending Kobe not convicting him.


I don't think there is an extreme bias one way or the other... some are going to take inane positions like "Kobe is innocent." without further comment, and some people are going to give the benefit to any alleged victim no matter what...

Most people are in the middle, and most members of the media just want to have people read what they write/say/whatever, so it doesn't pay to take a stance.

Ed O.


----------



## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant

> some are going to take inane positions like "Kobe is innocent."


"Inane?" No. Just short, sweet and to the point. Most effective, IMO. More should try the same approach.


----------



## ABM

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> 
> 
> "Inane?" No. Just short, sweet and to the point. Most effective, IMO. More should try the same approach.


OK, Kobe is guilty as charged.


----------



## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant

> Originally posted by <b>ABM</b>!
> 
> 
> OK, Kobe is guilty as charged.


Now see, thats exactly what im talking about.

Good job ABM. If that's you're belief you are more than entitled to state it.

Short,sweet and to the point. Nevermind its wrong. 

But you've got the hang of it.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> 
> "Inane?" No. Just short, sweet and to the point. Most effective, IMO. More should try the same approach.


It's actually a worthless post, IMO. It adds absolutely nothing to the board except another post in the post count. Even a short explanation of WHY you think he is innocent would give it some value. When a .sig is longer than a post, it's generally not a strong post (and/or the .sig is too long).

Can you imagine if every post was in the same spirit as your's?

--

The Blazers will win 46 games next season.

--

ZR is a power forward.

--

I hate Damon.

--

That's boring, and it's a waste of the medium that we're all participating in.

Ed O.


----------



## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant

Sorry ED O, I must disagree.

No one's opinion is "worthless."

I apologize that my not giving a two page essay to express my belief does not meet the standards of this particular board.

However, if I must give reason for feeling the way I do when it comes to Kobe's innocence. Come on over to the Laker board for a quick second and check out the Thread regarding an ESPN page two article. I give more resoning there.

Cmon on over! We'd love to see ya!


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> Sorry ED O, I must disagree.
> 
> No one's opinion is "worthless."


I said your post was worthless. The opinion is worth as much as any opinion. Without any foundation, the post is worthless.



> I apologize that my not giving a two page essay to express my belief does not meet the standards of this particular board.


No need to apologize, but 2 page essays are preferable, IMO, to 
three word posts. Somewhere in between is more often than not even better.

Ed O.


----------



## bfan1

*where I'm at on this...*

Being absolute on innocense or guilt at this point is irresponsible.

Ignoring the FACT that Kobe Bryant has proven, without question, that he IS CAPAPABLE of behavior contradictory to his image is also irresponsible.

This FACT opens the window of doubt. 

Kobe is no longer innocent, but is he a criminal? We will see.


----------



## Masbee

I don't agree that Kobe's image implied extremely strong family values and marital fidelity.

His super-polished image was about dedication and lots of really hard work to get to the top and how that was the "truth", not some made up hip-hop fantasy.

What does that image have to do with adulterous one-night stands?

Even the very public, and some say staged, reconciliation with his father does not change that. Can’t there be playas who want to spend time with their father? Can’t there be playas with children, who still want what’s best for their child?

You may be confusing positive and negative. The absence of playboy image doesn’t even imply, let alone “prove” or create a “fact” of the opposite.


----------



## bfan1

*just trying to explain*



> Originally posted by <b>Masbee</b>!
> You may be confusing positive and negative. The absence of playboy image doesn’t even imply, let alone “prove” or create a “fact” of the opposite.


I am not sure what you mean by this but there is no denying that Kobe's "image" is changed for life. That is what I meant.

Whatever words you use to describe it-Kobe's "image" is no longer as "positive" as it was. His credibility is less. That is a fact. 

The fact of his actions does indeed open the window of doubt as to whether he could or could not actually commit the "mistake" of rape. Had he not committed the "mistake" of adultery nobody would even be considering that he may have made an even bigger "mistake".

The contradiction of image and fact is what has everyone sprouting question marks over their heads-it is almost inconcievable but the fact that it is now possible is perplexing.

I'd say Kobe's future depends on the public's selective memory-no matter how it turns out. Fortunately for him this has proven to be quite a bonus for many celebrities.

Don't misunderstand-I am really hoping it turns out that he did not rape the girl. It's hard to put such complex thoughts into words. 

I have my own issues with the infidelity. There is no honor in it. 
I see him in a much different light now. Kobe no longer stands out as someone to admire. My convictions won't allow me to ignore it. If he is found guilty of rape-well-that will be that. 

Before you start saying-many many celebrities/sports stars are "not what you think". I know this. We all should know this. Thing is, this has gone public. It came from his own lips. It's everywhere. Now that I know-I can't ignore it. I still haven't been able to explain to a child who heard the news why Kobe would do what he did. 

I guess this is why no child should be allowed to make a "hero" out of a human-but how do you stop them? Say all you want about telling them this or that-it simply happens. All of us who buy a jersey are doing it. Goodness sakes-with Kobe I thought we were safe enough.

I am angry at Kobe for being so incredibly irresponsible and stupid.


----------



## bfan1

*check this out*

My only problem here is that a man should be able to say no as well....a little different but I think possible.

I wonder if this will be an issue in Kobe's case?

in a nutshell: if a woman changes her mind during sex and the man does not stop-he CAN be charged with rape.

I agree.

LINK


----------



## Anima

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-lakers-bryantcase&prov=ap&type=lgns

I saw all of this stuff on GMA this morning but on the show they also said Kobe initially mislead police which gives him a credibility issue should he take the stand and they think he has to sense alot of the case is he said she said.


----------



## antibody

Things are getting interesting. Kobe's camp will attempt to claim the whole thing was just "Rough Sex." I would have a difficult time buying that theory. Kobe should have been advised to keep his mouth shut about the whole thing. Coming out and stating he cheated on his wife was a mistake.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>antibody</b>!
> Coming out and stating he cheated on his wife was a mistake.


This is almost certainly true. He should not have admitted ANYTHING publicly. If she turned out to be totally delusional, for example, and the case had been thrown out, he would have damaged his reputation for no reason. As it is, representatives of the media are arguing that he waived his right of privacy by making the public confession.

At some level, it's nice when people come clean (even if that entails airing some nasty stuff), but in terms of a strategy, I don't see how it can help him. He should have just holed up with his family and lawyers until his day in court came and went.

Ed O.


----------



## seattleduck

*Brandishing a few thoughts on the Kobe situation*

Everything I've read from the mass media seems to center around the lines of these 5 points: 

1. The fact that she tried out for American Idol means nothing. 2. The fact that she overdosed a few months ago may say something about her lifestyle but it really has no relevance to her being sexually assaulted. 3. This poor girl is only 19 years old and has no idea of what the hailstorm of attention she is about to get. 4. Most people in the media would never in a
million years expect something like this from Kobe, but apparently didn't really know him at all. 5. Let's just wait and see what happens. 

I think to label him at this point as anything other than a
jerk who cheated on his wife is inappropriate, just like labeling her is inappropriate, until we know more. 

After hearing this stuff about the physical injury, it's hard not to assume he did it. But still, nothing has been proven. People will naturally suspect self-infliction, only because he is a celebrity, and because she was have something considerable to gain from that, and because there is a twelve-hour gap between the incident and her showing these injuries and filing a report. Personally, I would never assume that, but I guess in the order of fairness
you have to look at every angle, right? 

That said, I actually think that Kobe is in a world of trouble here and if it comes out that he really did this, he should go to the hole for a long time. And I don't mean for a dunk. Granted OJ got off so anything can happen... 

The slight possiblity does exist that she's digging, hence why people might suspect something like that. Not that people assume she is trying to take advantage, but that people will suspect that she might be. And you can't blame that because it happens to these athletes all the time, and people who try to exploit them should be punished. AND ... women getting assaulted unfortunately also happens all the time, and men doing it should be severely punished.


----------



## Anima

> NBA superstar Kobe Bryant initially lied to authorities by repeatedly denying he had sex with a 19-year-old hotel concierge, a new report said yesterday.
> 
> But Bryant flip-flopped barely 24 hours later, when he admitted messing around with the Colorado woman who was accusing him of raping her the night of June 30.


http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/2164.htm



> Prosecutors in the Kobe Bryant case added a veteran of sexual-assault cases to their team and landed $105,000 in additional funds.
> 
> Ingrid Bakke, a Boulder County deputy district attorney and head of Boulder's sexual-assault and domestic-violence unit, will join Eagle County District Attorney Mark Hurlbert and his deputy, Gregory Crittenden, in prosecuting the NBA star.


http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~53~1540958,00.html


EXCERPTS FROM THE NATION'S COLUMNISTS ON THE KOBE BRYANT CASE


----------



## STOMP

Epa- I really enjoyed the Nations Columnist exerps link you posted. Though I've been saying the same thing about not knowing these guys (NBA players) on these boards for years, this exerp for those exerps about the stupidity of our athletic hero worshipping stated it perfectly...

__________________________________________________
Now that Kobe Bryant has been revealed a fraud -- even if he's ultimately found not guilty of anything but being a self-absorbed jerk -- we've learned our lesson.

We've learned idolizing athletes is simply a stupid thing to do.

How many times have we been burned?

We thought we knew Bryant, and those before him, and that's our problem, not theirs. We idolize people for what they do, not who they are. It's true of all entertainers, but especially athletes. We marvel, as sports fans, at how amazing their gifts are. We've thrown the football, hit the baseball, took the jump shots. We know how maddening those skills are to master.

These super-athletes are so superb on the field, we assume they rise to admirable heights off the field, too. Until we're proved wrong. Again and again.

Reggie Hayes 
Fort Wayne News-Sentinel


----------



## Anima

> August 4, 2003 -- The woman accusing Kobe Bryant of rape tearfully told a bellhop minutes after the alleged attack that that she had just been "forced to have sex" with the NBA superstar, according to a new report.
> 
> Friends and co-workers of the accuser told Fox News correspondent Rita Cosby that the 19-year- old hotel worker's clothing was torn when she spoke with the bellhop.





> Meanwhile, Bryant was named favorite male athlete at the 2003 Teen Choice Awards, which he attended in L.A. with wife Vanessa on Saturday.
> 
> In accepting the award, he paraphrased the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.
> 
> "An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere," Bryant said at the show, which will be broadcast Wednesday, the same day he is due in an Eagle courtroom for a hearing in the rape case.



http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/2323.htm



> Nutella is ending its sweet deal with Kobe Bryant, whose recent indictment on a sexual-assault charge threatens to unravel his lucrative endorsement career.
> 
> The maker of the hazelnut spread has discontinued all Bryant-related promotions five months before his contract is set to expire, Julie Hurbanis, a company spokeswoman, told The Post.


http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/2329.htm


----------



## ABM

> Nutella is ending its sweet deal with Kobe Bryant......


I can definitely understand this move...especially considering the company's ad slogan:  ................_Nutella, which pays Bryant an estimated $500,000 a year for the right to use him in its advertising, removed a picture of a Bryant doll and the phrase *"Kobe Bryant's favorite spread"* from its Web site...._


----------



## Anima

Yahoo Sports says Nutella and Kobe are done

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-lakers-bryant-endorsement&prov=ap&type=lgns

Not that I didn't believe the NY Post but they always seemed more like a tabloid then a real newspaper to me.


----------



## Blazer Ringbearer

What do you guys think of the reported Kobe 911 call on July 3rd?

What do you think happened and what is the significance?

It could have just been an accident or health problem for Vanessa, but maybe it was another woman? or a domestic abuse problem relating to the adultery?!

Is this something that might be brought in as evidence and if so, do you think it helps the prosecution out much?


----------



## Anima

There might have been something wrong with their baby. I don't think they said in the report if it was a adult or a child but just that it was a women.


----------



## bfan1

*Nike wants out of Kobe contract*

I wondered if this would happen. It is being somewhat poopooed at the Laker board but I think this is a shadow of things to come:

LINK 

and for good measure: MSNBC


----------



## Fork

> Originally posted by <b>Epadfield</b>!
> There might have been something wrong with their baby. I don't think they said in the report if it was a adult or a child but just that it was a women.


Babies, in general, are not referred to as 'women.'


----------



## Anima

I was referring to this 



> Shortly after he called 911, medics treated a female at the house but did not need to take her to the hospital, said Vickie Cleary, emergency services manager for the Newport Beach Fire Department.
> 
> No further details were immediately available, and it was unclear whether the medics treated a woman or child. Bryant and his wife, Vanessa, had a baby girl in January.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-lakers-bryant-911call&prov=ap&type=lgns

The article does state the paramedics took a WOMEN to the hospital on March 5th.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

Does anyone else think, especially with the new rumors about her having marks on her neck and back, that Kobe just likes it consensually rough?


----------



## ABM

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Does anyone else think, especially with the new rumors about her having marks on her neck and back, that Kobe just likes it consensually rough?


It won't matter, will it? This is not about him, it's about _her_ - as, apparently, there was nothing "consensual" about it.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>ABM</b>!
> 
> 
> It won't matter, will it? This is not about him, it's about _her_ - as, apparently, there was nothing "consensual" about it.



She got off of work at night , then went up to his room of her own volition. I haven't been following the details closely, but what other evidence besides heresay is there to prove that something non-consentual took place?


----------



## barfo

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Does anyone else think, especially with the new rumors about her having marks on her neck and back, that Kobe just likes it consensually rough?


Sure. Probably the same group of people who think OJ is innocent. 

barfo


----------



## Fork

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> She got off of work at night , then went up to his room of her own volition. I haven't been following the details closely, but what other evidence besides heresay is there to prove that something non-consentual took place?


It's all hearsay. Nothing has been testified to. But you're accepting the parts that make her look bad as absolute fact and dismissing the parts that make him look bad as hearsay. At least 
_try_ to hide your bias against this girl.


----------



## mook

if there is any winner in all this ugliness, I would like to declare that winner to be ME. i can finally hold a jar of Nutella while retaining my appetite. 

actually, though, if the internet rumors are true about Kobe's *ahem* manner of rape, Nutella will once again be off limits for me. damned psychological associations.


----------



## Anima

> The basketball star could go to trial as early as October, if his defense team decides to fast-track the case.
> 
> That would allow him to return to the Los Angeles Lakers and complete most of the basketball season, provided he is found not guilty of the felony sexual assault charge.


http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~28682~1553924,00.html


----------



## ABM

Interesting FAQ's and Answers......


----------



## Terrible

I tell ya between the bell hop and the hospital visit, this girl has put herself around enough witnesses to make this very hard for Kobe to come out without some sort of jail time. 

I just can't believe how many witnesses this girl has!

 

What are the chances of that many people seeing you in the course of a sexual attack?

Kobe is in big trouble either way it goes and so are the Lakers.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> 
> 
> It's all hearsay. Nothing has been testified to. But you're accepting the parts that make her look bad as absolute fact and dismissing the parts that make him look bad as hearsay. At least
> _try_ to hide your bias against this girl.



Then hide your Bias against kobe!!! If speculation bothers you why would you be stupid enough to post in this thread?

I am stating what every news station is, unless you can respond with a " testified" fact, I suggest you keep your labels to yourself.

I posted this because of every ( limited) newsreport I have seen, they have indicated that the girl was injured on the neck back and shoulders, but not on the face. I was just musing. I don't care one way or another if Kobe goes to prision, or is guilty. My life will be awesome either way. I also don't pretend to have been in the room the night of the incident. For all I know alien's from Kobe's home planet could have cloned him and taken turns gang-probing the victim.


----------



## Fork

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Then hide your Bias against kobe!!! If speculation bothers you why would you be stupid enough to post in this thread?


I'm not biased against Kobe Bryant. Not in the least. Innocent until proven guilty. What bothers me is not speculation...what bothers me is the speculation that EVERYTHING Kobe says is the truth and EVERYTHING the girl says is a lie. You've clearly bought into that with your first post. 



> For all I know alien's from Kobe's home planet could have cloned him and taken turns gang-probing the victim.


That's a stupid and insensitive thing to say. Don't make light of the situation dude. It's not appreciated. Jokes at the expense of anybody involded is pretty ****ing weak.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not biased against Kobe Bryant. Not in the least. Innocent until proven guilty. What bothers me is not speculation...what bothers me is the speculation that EVERYTHING Kobe says is the truth and EVERYTHING the girl says is a lie. You've clearly bought into that with your first post.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a stupid and insensitive thing to say. Don't make light of the situation dude. It's not appreciated. Jokes at the expense of anybody involded is pretty ****ing weak.



You either can't read very well or are more emotionally rapped up in this then you'd like to admit. Reread what I said, you'll note I am siting news broadcasts not Kobe or the alleged victim. You need to calm down, this case has nothing to do with you, there is no reason for you to get flustered and start swearing, unless you are incapable of controlling yourself. Seriously why are you getting so emotional?

I haven't bought into anything, again I am just specualting. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? Seriously did you even read my posts? Maybe you should get someone to explain them to you if really think I am allying with either side.


As for my weak joke, I thought it was funny, I am sure someone else thought the idea of gang-probing was funny. For now why don't you cut the humanitarian crap. For a guy who takes issue with people assuming things, you're real quick to throw labels on people. 


Here's a tip for you: If your going to get this wrapped up in a case involving an alleged crime and NBA player, you're in for an emotional rollercoaster as an NBA fan.


----------



## Spooner

Ya dude, you really need to get a sense of humor. I laughed at the gang probing thing your acting like this kobe rape thing has something to do with you and it doesn't.


Unless you're gonna come forward and say kobe raped you or something


----------



## ABM

Guys.........................

Need I say more?


----------



## Fork

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> As for my weak joke, I thought it was funny, I am sure someone else thought the idea of gang-probing was funny. For now why don't you cut the humanitarian crap. For a guy who takes issue with people assuming things, you're real quick to throw labels on people.


Oh yeah. Hilarious.

FYI, my girlfriend (ex now) was raped so if I seem a bit sensitive, you'll have to just go with it for a while, okay? I believe if your girlfriend, daughter, wife or mother was raped, you would feel the same way and you'd probably not be so quick to make idiotic jokes at the expense of a rape victim.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh yeah. Hilarious.
> 
> FYI, my girlfriend (ex now) was raped so if I seem a bit sensitive, you'll have to just go with it for a while, okay? I believe if your girlfriend, daughter, wife or mother was raped, you would feel the same way and you'd probably not be so quick to make idiotic jokes at the expense of a rape victim.



I knew you had a personal interest in this.

Sorry to hear that your ex-girlfriend got manhandled. That must be a tough situation.

Interesting that you get so worked up because you assume a rape has already occured, rather hypocritical of you don't you think. As for " going" with anything you say sorry, pain and tragedy are a part of life, you can't expect to attack someone ( especially someone so funny  ) and get away with it just because you have feelings.


----------



## bfan1

*Preliminary Hearing*

Set for October 9

CNN.COM


----------



## Blazer Ringbearer

Nothing worse than a comedian who laughs at his own jokes... especially when they're not funny.


----------



## Anima

You can make that 3 people that didn't find you little joke funny. Of course being a woman I don't have a sense of humor about that kind of thing.


----------



## Blazer Ringbearer

Should any person, male or female, have a well developed sense of humor about rape? Or for that matter sexism, or racism, or bigotry of any sort?


----------



## Ed O

I don't think the joke was that bad. I don't think it was hilarious, but it was poking (pardon the pun) fun at the whole situation (uncertainty surrounding the allegations), not at any of the participants. It was also a joke that was so ludicrous (aliens cloning Kobe) dealing with a (to me) novel idea (gang-probing) that has no connection to real life (as far as I know).

I watched the Daily Show last night and they were joking around about Kobe's "domination" of the news. Obviously we're not Comedy Central here, but to get worked up about such a tangential attempt at humor is not something that I am willing to do, personally.

Ed O.


----------



## Anima

> Originally posted by <b>Blazer Ringbearer</b>!
> Should any person, male or female, have a well developed sense of humor about rape? Or for that matter sexism, or racism, or bigotry of any sort?


I don't think so but there are some very sick people in the world. I am sure some members of the KKK thought dragging James Byrd Jr to his death was funny. Now Knicksbiggestfan's joke wasn't anywhere near as bad as someone joking about Byrd so please don't get the impression that I think it was but it still wasn't funny IMO.


----------



## Bwatcher

I think the name is Fork. Its so nice to see respectful, thought-laden discussion from those new to the board. It adds much to the general good feeling of all concerned.


----------



## ABM

> Originally posted by <b>Bwatcher</b>!
> I think the name is Fork. Its so nice to see respectful, thought-laden discussion from those new to the board. It adds much to the general good feeling of all concerned.


I agree. And, just for good measures, I deleted that post - because I can. MUWAHAHAHAH!! :evil:


----------



## jackiejackal

*here we go again..suddenly Kobe is black*

http://www.msnbc.com/news/949835.asp

Funny..
I don't ever remember Kobe even referred to as black.
He was..Kobe,the basketball star..

Now all of a sudden,he is Kobe..the black man.

pulease..
here goes the race card.
By the way,even in high school Kobe was wearing suits,never
had jewels hanging off him,now all of a sudden he is looking
more like a hip hop ..black guy..tattoo..necklaces..
Is this just a coincidence??

No one,including Jordan and O.J. had/have the luxury of being
colorless,yet when trouble hits..
boy do they turn black quick.


----------



## Fork

Interesting article here:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-08-07-kobe-poll-usat_x.htm

Related poll here:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/lakers/2003-08-07-kobe-usat-gallup.htm

oops. I guess this is the same one that jackie just posted. Oh well.


----------



## Anima

Kobe shouldn't mix two courts


----------



## Anima

> Which brings us to the Kobe Bryant saga. Ever since the sexual assault story broke, we've been subjected to commentary after commentary about the duplicitous nature of today's athletes. They're phony, the story line goes. Disingenuous. Cunning. Sure, we know the persona, but in reality we wouldn't want to know the person, much less put him on a pedestal.
> 
> 
> In the aftermath of the Kobe story, we've been asking ourselves how we could have been so damn gullible, so ridiculously naive. It was all a charade, this business about Kobe being such a great guy, about his ability to resist the temptations of the NBA lifestyle, about his marriage allowing him to be faithful to one woman.
> 
> 
> It's true. Sometimes we don't know them, and sometimes it's just as well that we don't. But you know what? Sometimes we don't know what we're missing by not getting to know today's athletes better. Sometimes they surprise us. Sometimes the person is even better than the persona.


Sports is filled with special people


----------



## bfan1

*The 911 call*

The woman was Vanessa:

LINK


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

Let's not forget Kobe was separated from his wife at the time and I doubt he was "getting it" on a regular basis. As such, and given his state of mind at the time about "women" (marriage going south, nonstop idol worshipping...) I find it highly probable that he "just went crazy" or something to that effect. He comes on to her; she says 'no' (just like his estranged wife); and he makes her. I think that is a very common sense approach. Her clothes were torn, she was somewhat beaten up, she yelled for help... I think this is building momentum against him. 

To be sure, I wasn't there so I really don't know what happened, but with what seems to be the most credible evidence and other circumstantial evidence, I'm beginning to wonder how he'll look in orange.


----------



## bfan1

*what?*

I have never heard that Kobe and his wife were seperated?


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

It was reported that they were. However, one never knows the real truth is.


----------



## Public Defender

> Originally posted by <b>BLAZER PROPHET</b>!
> Let's not forget Kobe was separated from his wife at the time and I doubt he was "getting it" on a regular basis. As such, and given his state of mind at the time about "women" (marriage going south, nonstop idol worshipping...) I find it highly probable that he "just went crazy" or something to that effect. He comes on to her; she says 'no' (just like his estranged wife); and he makes her. I think that is a very common sense approach...


Tell me you're kidding, BP. It's "common sense" to rape a woman because you're bummed about not getting laid on a regular basis? I'm sure you don't mean this... please explain? 

I am thinking you might have meant to say something to the effect of "I could understand a set of circumstances in which Kobe's irrational state of mind, feelings of rejection and immediate situation might have led to what happened." I'd say it'd be "common sense" to seek professional help or to find a prostitute, or to react to the rejection by showing the young woman the door and then hitting the bars (or having my boys hit the bars) to find somebody else. There's a path from A to B in what you described, BP, but it's one that makes sense to an egotistical, violent, borderline-sociopath type of person, not one who bases decisions on "common sense."


----------



## Ed O

..

Nothing to see here.

Ed O.


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

Well, OK, public defender, I think it didn't put it very well. But my basic premesis stands. I think, based on the evidence that seems to be genuine and Kobe's most likely state of mind that he raped this woman. That's just an opinion, and maybe I'm dead wrong, but I stick to it.


----------



## STOMP

Whoops sorry.... there is a great article on ESPN's insider by Tim Keown, but I obviously can't paste it here as it's a premium service. Read it if you've got it....

STOMP


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

Should Kobe do a type of farewell tour this season? I mean, just in case...


----------



## Public Defender

> Originally posted by <b>BLAZER PROPHET</b>!
> Well, OK, public defender, I think it didn't put it very well. But my basic premesis stands. I think, based on the evidence that seems to be genuine and Kobe's most likely state of mind that he raped this woman. That's just an opinion, and maybe I'm dead wrong, but I stick to it.


Innocent until proven guilty, right BP? But the same goes for the woman involved and let's hope the talk shows will lay off her for a while. 

Unfortunately, no one is going to come out of this whole ordeal unscathed. The woman is already shaken up - either because she was raped or because she wound up in an extremely uncomfortable situation she didn't know how to get out of. And Kobe's life will never be the same, even if he's found completely innocent.


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

Well, Public Defender, I for one plead guilty to a wicked sense of humor. It gets carried away, but for some perverse reason I find a little bit of amusement in the whole affair. Either one, or both, of them showed about the worst jusdgement a person can exercise. It is indeed a very serious matter and my greatest desire is that justice prevails for both.

Now, about Kobe's farewell tour...


----------



## Public Defender

> Originally posted by <b>BLAZER PROPHET</b>!
> I find a little bit of amusement in the whole affair.
> 
> Now, about Kobe's farewell tour...


I don't know that I find it "ha-ha" funny so much as I just find myself rolling my eyes at the whole thing. Plus the fact that Dale Davis is coming out with a movie with this _exact plot line_ just makes me pretty much dumbfounded with the irony. 

On Kobe's farewell tour... maybe I'm just a sap, but I'd really hate to see the guy's career come to an end over something like this. Sure I think he's a cocky SOB and symbolic of all that's wrong with the NBA, but let's face it, the league would be worse off without a talent like Kobe to compete against. Not that missing him is any reason not to want justice served. 

It reminds me of John Rocker only obviously much worse if proven. Tons of talent, but barely a gram of sense. Just continues to prove Charles Barkley right that these guys are not role models and never ought to be treated as such. For every Cal Ripken, there's a Kobe Bryant, Ruben Patterson, Rasheed Wallace, Chris Webber, John Rocker, Ray Lewis, Michael Irvin, JR Rider... OK, I'll stop there.


----------



## STOMP

I'm not seeing this posted yet, but this many pages in who knows... anyways this link features a Colorado defense lawyer answering many legal questions surrounding the upcoming trial.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=3838

STOMP


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

As always, STOMP, you're my favorite poster. Now, a few items from your link...

Marques (NYC): I'm a paralegal who has worked on various criminal cases. My question is whether or not you think Bryant should testify. It doesn't seem like he has many other witnesses that could support him, at least not yet. It looks like the case will hinge on cross-examination of the alleged victim. Do you think that the defense will want to put Kobe on the stand to hear his story, or is the potential cross from the prosecution too dangerous to risk? 

John Pineau: In every case like this, you prepare your client to testify but hold off making the decision to just before he takes the stand. If the case is going remarkably well, the reasonable decision is to not place the client on the stand. If it is close or you feel you are behind you reevaluate whether your client should testify. 


** Uh-oh! Keep an eye out for Kobe on the stand **

Allen Ransom (Warner Robins, GA): Can Kobe settle this out of court? 

John Pineau: Very unlikely. 

** I agree. This isn't the type of case htat settles out of court.

Brian, Los Angeles: Is is it typical for a case to be reviewed by several top prosecutors throughout the State of Colorado before charges are filed? Do you feel that this should give the DA of Eagle Counry more confidence as he begins to try this case? 

John Pineau: No. It is not typical. Sure, it will give the DA more confidence. I actually graduate with Mr. Hurlbert. He is a very nice guy. I'm sure he is trying to do the very best job he can. In doing that, I think he made the right decision to talk to other sources before he made his decision to charge. 

Ashlee (Virginia): PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION!!!!!!!!!If Kobe is convicted but is sentenced to 20 years to life of probation, will he still be able to play basketball, or is there a rule in the NBA where sex offenders are not allowed to play? 

John Pineau: There are two sides to this .. there may be a provision in his contract that allows the contract to terminate if he is placed on felony probation. Probation, in addition to the ugly features we talked about earlier, can come with 180 days of straight jail as a condition of probation in Colorardo. On the other side, the conditions of probation may prohibit him from working in the NBA. For example, he is certain to have a condition that he can't have contact with children under the age of 18. He could end up with an ankle monitor. That could hinder his performance. There are a number of conditions that are so onnerous that it could make it difficult to continue on with his career. 

** Interesting!**

Andy Lee (Glendale, CA): Do you believe that Kobe Bryant will have a perfectly fair trial? 

John Pineau: Yeah, I think Kobe Bryant may be able to get a fair trial in Eagle County and if he can't, the judge will put it in a county where he can. 

** But Kobe doesn't want a fair trial!**

Jason (MN)`: Why aren't you defending Kobe?? 

John Pineau: He's in the hands of arguably the best lawyers in the state and I'm not just kissing their ***. A really strong team is representing Mr. Bryant. 

** heh heh heh **

I STILL wonder how Kobe will look in Orange.

Also, one note. Even if Kobe gets lifetime probation, I'm sure the NBA will welcome him back with open arms. If it were Rasheed, he'd never play another game.


----------



## bfan1

*wackos*

man charged after threatening to kill the accuser

LINK 
:nonono:


----------



## ABM

*Re: wackos*



> Originally posted by <b>bfan1</b>!
> man charged after threatening to kill the accuser
> 
> LINK
> :nonono:


Goes to show ya, alcohol and telephones just don't mix. :no:


----------



## ABM

Room 35, Please....


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

I strongly recommend you all read the inside back cover of last weeks Sports Illustrated. Riley did a piece on this whole sad affair that really hits home.


----------



## barfo

> Originally posted by <b>Public Defender</b>!
> Plus the fact that Dale Davis is coming out with a movie with this _exact plot line_ just makes me pretty much dumbfounded with the irony.


Isn't it obvious that Dale Davis paid the woman in CO to accuse Kobe, in order to promote his movie? And as an added benefit, the Lakers lose more games, helping Dale's team? 

Motive, Means, and Opportunity. Clearly, Dale is guilty as all heck.

C'mon people, what are you not smoking? There's a conspiracy theory here just waiting...

barfo


----------



## bfan1

*just an observation*



> Also Tuesday, a spokeswoman for the University of Northern Colorado in Greeley confirmed that Bryant's accuser has not returned for her sophomore year.


She'll be in hiding and Kobe will be on the court...



Quote source


----------



## Ed O

*Re: just an observation*



> Originally posted by <b>bfan1</b>!
> 
> She'll be in hiding and Kobe will be on the court...


If I had people making death threats in my direction (yes, I know that I have had people threaten me on this board, but only to kick my butt, not to kill me as far as I can tell) I wouldn't go out in public much, either. At least not until things died down a bit.

Ed O.


----------



## HOWIE

Everyone has their own opinion on what happen. The only two people that know are Kobe and Ms. X. 

Making death threats against another person is just plain and stupid. How does it solve anything? If Kobe wasn't such a superstar would this even make the news? Could you see a player like Charles Smith getting this much attention if he was in Kobe's shoes? Would the defendent be getting death threats? Maybe, would we care if he wasn't a Blazer? NO! :whatever:


----------



## barfo

> Originally posted by <b>HOWIE</b>!
> Everyone has their own opinion on what happen.


I expect there is a guy in Tibet who hasn't heard about the whole thing yet.



> The only two people that know are Kobe and Ms. X.


And the other 13 people in the room at the time.



> Making death threats against another person is just plain and stupid.


Tell that to the President.



> How does it solve anything?


Well, suppose I said I'd kill you if you posted anything positive about the Lakers. If you believed me, that might keep you from posting anything postive about the Lakers, which would be a solution if I had a problem with all the nice things you say about the lakers.



> If Kobe wasn't such a superstar would this even make the news?


Yes. Sheed is not such a superstar as Kobe, but if he was involved, it would certainly make the news.



> Could you see a player like Charles Smith getting this much attention if he was in Kobe's shoes?


Yes, if he were wearing nothing else and Kobe was holding Smith's member.



> Would the defendent be getting death threats?


Yes, because death threats are actually messages from outer space which mean 'Do you have an alternator for a '66 Chevy?'



> Maybe, would we care if he wasn't a Blazer?


Maybe, we would.



> NO!


YES!



> :whatever:





barfo the disagreeable


----------



## loyalty4life

Man barfo, I think you deserve the "Post Like Ed O" award. :devil:


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>Loyalty4Life</b>!
> Man barfo, I think you deserve the "Post Like Ed O" award. :devil:


Yes, my young Padawan has learned well.

Ed O., Lord Sith


----------



## barfo

You both are too, too kind. With 400 posts, I am but a humble toddler in training pants. 

barfo


----------



## HOWIE

I said corrected, thanks for setting me straight on the topic! :sour:


----------



## Anima

*Kobe Bryant's attorneys ask for accuser's medical records*



> DENVER (AP) -- Kobe Bryant's lawyers have subpoenaed a hospital to see his accuser's medical records -- the first indication they might make her mental health an issue if the sexual assault case against the NBA star goes to trial.
> 
> The subpoenas were disclosed in a court filing by attorneys for a hospital in Greeley where the accuser was treated in February after police at the University of Northern Colorado determined she was a ``danger to herself.''





> Attorneys for the North Colorado Medical Center and its psychiatric care center asked that the subpoenas be quashed, citing medical privacy laws. The woman's attorney has told the hospital she has ``explicitly not waived her medical privilege,'' the filing said.


 

Full Story


----------



## bfan1

*false imprisonment?*



> While Bryant was only charged with sexual assault, the July 3 arrest warrant said there was "probable cause" he was also guilty of false imprisonment, a misdemeanor. The decision to charge Bryant with only the sexual assault count was made by Mark Hurlbert. He has not explained why.


This goes along with her saying that he wouldn't let her leave...doesn't it?


Makes you wonder. :whoknows:



LINK


----------



## Anima

> On Friday, the hospital's lawyer filed a motion to quash Bryant's subpoenas and to have the medical records held by the judge either returned to the hospital or destroyed.
> 
> The hospital claims the records are privileged under Colorado law and may not be released to a third party without the woman's consent.
> 
> It also claims Judge Frederick Gannett cannot even look at the records to decide whether they should be given to the defense.


Story


----------



## ABM

http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_5159.shtml


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

Hmmm... ABM, I wonder. From what I've read in the last 10 years, there are a lot of female groupies that nearly stalk pro players. I have a hard time thinking that there as few as that lady claims.
Otherwise, excellent article.


----------



## bfan1

*...*



> Originally posted by <b>BLAZER PROPHET</b>!
> Hmmm... ABM, I wonder. From what I've read in the last 10 years, there are a lot of female groupies that nearly stalk pro players. I have a hard time thinking that there as few as that lady claims.
> Otherwise, excellent article.



Yes there are a lot, but they aren't stalking to be able to cry rape. 

I think They are "stalking" to get a "ring" or a baby (child support-perhaps forced marriage) much more so than a plan to charge with rape. Kind of like those gals in Officer and a Gentleman...


----------



## Masbee

The Hoopsworld article is garbage. Tons of flawed logic and sweeping generalities.

Here's one. "It’s part and parcel of a whole mythology that’s designed to discredit women who report rape, battery, sexual harassment, etc."

Is this kind of like the "vast right wing conspiracy" ?. 

And a complaint: "They tend to rely on anecdotes and hearsay. Where are the studies and research about this allegedly terrible problem?"

To be followed by a summation of a study (which is flawed to begin with) which has absolutely noting to do with extremely rich sports stars: "The bottom line, then is that out of 2000 charges of rape, there were five proven liars. That is good enough evidence for me to conclude that most victims are telling the truth!" 

Oopps. Looks like this researcher flunked their logic course in high school.

And don't you like how the implication of this statement is that all men accused of rape are guilty. Nice. Real nice.

There are no studies applicable to the Kobe situation because the sample population is too small. How many super rich athletes are there? A few hundred? How many of those have been accused of rape?

And this advocate tries to make her point by citing a study that is about rape reporting in general.

And fails to mention that the whole process of her cited "study" is silly. If many accusations of rape end up essentially as a he-said/she-said case, how on earth can researchers know which accusations are false?

Answer - they can't. They can only learn about accusers who later recanted and admitted to lying - a very rare situation. How can you put a number to accusers who lie, and never recant? Once most people commit themselves to big whopper lies, it is typical that they stand by their story forever.


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

bfan1- I don't think so. I mean, of course you're right about the ring/baby thing, but as I understand it, there are many who threaten to alledge rape for a small sum of money. I get my info from reading various articles (none I can specifically mention) and so forth.

However, as to the Kobe case, it doesn't appear to be the case. I think the evidence we do know about (as opossed to rumors) plays strongly against him. However, we don't have all the evidence. Add to that, there's the race card his attorneys will play and so forth. From the article with the CO defense atty and from other interviews (Larry King...), they say the bottom line is if Kobe testifies. If he does, it means his attorneys have all but conceded guilt and that's their last ditch chance. Sort of throwing in the towell.


----------



## Minstrel

Wow. This discussion has really progressed apiece.

If all Kobe talk, until *everything* is resolved, goes in here, we could have a 100+ page thread. Amazing.


----------



## Nightfly

I just have a question for whoever merged all these threads into this one back when Speed was going crazy posting a bunch of threads, etc...

To who ever named the thread, why did you decide to use the phrase, "The 'Fred Meyer' of Kobe Discussion?" I know what Fred Meyers is (I shop there often enough), but why mention Fred Meyer in this thread title?

I'm just wondering. Maybe someone else has mentioned this before, but I don't feel like going through 20 pages of posts, and I can't search anymore because I'm not a supporting member...


----------



## HOWIE

> Originally posted by <b>HearToTemptYou</b>!
> I just have a question for whoever merged all these threads into this one back when Speed was going crazy posting a bunch of threads, etc...
> 
> To who ever named the thread, why did you decide to use the phrase, "The 'Fred Meyer' of Kobe Discussion?" I know what Fred Meyers is (I shop there often enough), but why mention Fred Meyer in this thread title?
> 
> I'm just wondering. Maybe someone else has mentioned this before, but I don't feel like going through 20 pages of posts, and I can't search anymore because I'm not a supporting member...


Call it a huntch, but Fred Meyers is know for the "One stop shopping" hence the name of the thread.


----------



## ABM

> Originally posted by <b>HOWIE</b>!
> 
> 
> Call it a huntch, but Fred Meyers is know for the "One stop shopping" hence the name of the thread.


Bingo! (I re-named it)


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

One might say this is a my-te-fine thread.


----------



## Nightfly

> Originally posted by <b>ABM</b>!
> 
> 
> Bingo! (I re-named it)


Thank you for the explanation... At least now I know, although I still don't really feel inclinded to talk about Kobe.


----------



## HOWIE

> Originally posted by <b>HearToTemptYou</b>!
> 
> 
> Thank you for the explanation... At least now I know, although I still don't really feel inclinded to talk about Kobe.


LOL! :laugh: 

Nothing better than a local brand huh?


----------



## goldfinger2020

*Would it be possible or even ethical...*

to have Kobe Bryant play pro basketball this year if he's convicted of rape? Would the Lakers franchise say "Oh, well the playoffs are more important than morals, & we don't care what our players do off the court, as long as they bring us championships while on the court." If Bryant gets convicted, wouldn't suspending him for the year be the right thing to do if you're Laker management? Or is a championship too important. If he gets convicted, how are their players going to react. Are they going to say "Oh he was convicted, but he's really innocent. We stand by our teammate 100%" Are the Lakers, or any other team next year going to throw 100 million dollars at a convicted rapist? Probably. David Stern is going to have a real mess on his hands if Kobe gets convicted.


----------



## goldfinger2020

BTW, I realize there's a All Kobe thread, but I thought this was kinda OT of what was going on in that thread at the time.


----------



## ScottVdub

if he gets convicted he's gonna be playing ball with bubba in the state pen wearing a orange jumpsuit as a uniform and his number will be 874F1


----------



## HOWIE

I would have to say "No" if he is convicted of rape. But there have been so many players before him that have had the same thing happen and they were able to swing a deal to get out of it. Look at Ruben Patterson, he played the next season and then there is Anthony Mason and his crime was far worse than Bryant's or Patterson's because his involved children.

If convicted, yes he should do time, but will he get convicted? I doubt it.


----------



## ThatBlazerGuy

What did Anthony Mason do???


Also, remember DeShawn Stevenson's sex with minors....


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>ThatBlazerGuy</b>!
> What did Anthony Mason do???
> 
> 
> Also, remember DeShawn Stevenson's sex with minors....


DeShawn had sex with a 14 year old, as a 20 year old. 
DeShawn 

Anthony Mason:


> Basketball star Anthony Mason pleaded guilty yesterday to endangering two teen-age girls after prosecutors dropped statutory rape charges.
> He was ordered to perform 200 hours of community service for the homeless.
> The more serious charges were dropped because DNA tests failed to link the Charlotte Hornets player to the girls, ages 14 and 15, prosecutor Kenneth Appelbaum said. Mason could have gotten eight years in prison on those charges.
> Mason and a friend were accused in February of having sex with the girls at a house. Mason, a former member of the New York Knicks, was visiting the city during the NBA's All-Star game break.
> Mason pleaded guilty to child endangerment, admitting that he "engaged in conduct injurious to two young women under 17 years of age by allowing them to be placed in a position where they would be subjected to sexual contact."


For a little bit more (tho not really) on Mason's case, try this site. It's from the [email protected] Daily News  and towards the bottom.


----------



## Public Defender

Professional sports has a way of leaving "ethics" up to the law, and only in rare instances - such as Jason Kidd getting traded primarily for his domestic abuse problems - does a team act against a star player when it's within the law not to. If Kobe is convicted but is sentenced to something short of prison time (which is a possibility, though I'm not sure how strong of one), I would expect him to play for the Lakers, assuming it's not barred by his sentence. If he's convicted and doesn't serve time, he'd have to do several hundred, if not thousands of hours of community service within a certain time frame or be imprisoned. If fulfilling that obligation takes him away from basketball occasionally, I would expect the team to make sure he follows through, so they don't lose him long-term to jail time. 

But doesn't all this belong in the Fred Meyer thread? 

~ the guy who's afraid of this message board turning into "all Kobe, all the time"


----------



## Petey

> Originally posted by <b>ScottVdub</b>!
> if he gets convicted he's gonna be playing ball with bubba in the state pen wearing a orange jumpsuit as a uniform and his number will be 874F1


Exactly, if he is convicted he will be in jail. They have to play him until then, otherwise if he is not convicted, or some news comes out that he did not rape her, would it be fair to her? She can do what she wants with her life now, why can't he until the trial?

-Petey


----------



## Draco

put this stupid crap in the kobe thread thats the only place it should be.


----------



## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> DeShawn had sex with a 14 year old, as a 20 year old.
> DeShawn


Another noteworthy tidbit about this incident is that this girl whom attended the same high school in which Stevenson had graduated from a year earlier had been having relations him the year prior when he was a high school senior and she was a high school freshman.

Statutory rape and rape are by no means one and the same and Statutory rape covers a lot of gray area.

These players often times do not go out willingly searching high schools, day cares and fair grounds for these young women. Often times they are met at nightclubs and bars in which they use fake IDs to gain entry. They are in most cases deceitful in regards to their age and it is at times hard to gauge accurately due to the advanced physical development of many of the young ladies.

Now a little discretion probably should be utilized by these _grown men_ but exactly how much discretion can one exercise if a woman appears to be in her 20's and holds identification vouching to such? Should one acquire finger prints and DNA samples to be _absolutely_ sure? 

For these reasons I find this issue in particular to be a rather tricky one. Throw in a young lady armed with collaborators and ambitious plans and you have the makings of a combustible situation.

A situation in which not even former player and current Blazers Director of Player Programs (*Jerome Kersey*) is immune. 

------------

In regards to the Stevenson situation here is an example of a rather customary situation that I would consider to be similar.

_A young man graduates high school and goes off to college leaving behind his junior girl friend. At the beginning of his college summer vacation he returns home and accompanies his now 17-year-old senior girl friend to her senior prom. The girl’s parents (whom never liked this boy) decide to notify the authorities in order to press statutory rape charges).
After a night of post prom relations the boy returns his date home to the presence of a squad car followed there after by a rather uncomfortable ride down town._ 

*Statutory Rape*. I liken the Stevenson incident to such an occurrence.

Looking back on my own high school experience I guess that I too could be considered a statutory rapist for having sexual relations with my 17-year-old girlfriend on the night of my senior prom (I was 18).


----------



## ebott

> Originally posted by <b>Draco</b>!
> put this stupid crap in the kobe thread thats the only place it should be.


I second the motion. If a moderator would be kind enough to merge this into the kobe thread or just shut this one down it would be oh so appreciated.

On the topic. The whole Kobe situation has proven to me one basic thing. We do not know what goes on in the lives of professional atheletes and we do not know what kind of people they are. Anyone who thinks they do after this should take a good long time and think again. If Kobe is found guilty he will go to jail and as such can not play basketball and the question is foolish at best. The question that should have been asked is what if there is an OJ type situation where the evidence that the public sees shows that Kobe is guilty but he is found innocent. Should he be allowed to continue playing professional basketball then? The answer is that it doesn't matter what you think. Kobe will continue to play professional basketball reguardless of whether you or anybody else thinks he shouldn't.


----------



## Dan

fine..yah big baby!!!

consider it moved.


----------



## HOWIE

Hap, clean up on isle 5!


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>HOWIE</b>!
> Hap, clean up on isle 5!


Hank Hill: More baby vomit?


----------



## STOMP

ugly disgusting nasty bleep

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1618895

STOMP


----------



## Ed O

Man, that solicitation of murder deal *is* messed up (see STOMP's link, for those of you confused about that).

I was thinking: if the Blazers fined Ruben Patterson $100k for being involved in a domestic violence situation where he wasn't even charged, how much will the Lakers fine Kobe Bryant, assuming he's not found guilty? (Obviously, if he's found guilty, Lakers' fines won't really matter much...)

Should he be fined at all? 

If not, why not? Is it because the Lakers are more lax about off-court behavior than the Blazers? Is it because Kobe's a superstar? Is it because it's the first time that Kobe's been in legal trouble? Is it because of the Blazers' combined troublemaking? Is it because Ruben Patterson should not have been fined in the first place?

I don't know how I feel about it, but was just wondering what all of you thought about this. (This is NOT a question of guilt or innocence; this is a thought experiment assuming Kobe is not found guilty (meaning the charges are dropped, he's acquitted, or something similar).

Ed O.


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

Some mental case fan (and there's lots of them- just look at us!) soliciting this. Kobe's people turned him in. Good for them. 

Should Kobe be fined? Suspended? If I were the NBA, I would investigate (and do a darn site better htan the Wallace invest) and act appropriately. If the evidence is very strong against him, perhaps he should be suspended. Wallace would be. Damon would be. Patterson would be. Kobe won't be. To be fair, he has such a squeaky clean image and the NBA needs the revenue he generates that there could be video evidence and he'd NEVER be suspended until he was founf guilty and all appeals exhausted. Because he's Kobe and they're the LA Lakers. But, hey, that's reality in the NBA. Just ask the ref's.


----------



## Anima

*Man charged in LA with soliciting murder of Bryant case accuser*

Outside court, Knecht described Graber as ``a little bit naive and not very swift. ... He is not the most intelligent guy in the world.'' 

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-bryantcase&prov=ap&type=lgns


----------



## Anima

Not that anyone is interested but here is a picture of Graber.


----------



## Anima

*I don't know which is worse....*

Them selling it or thinking I would buy one. 



> Kobe Bryant Reportedly Paid 4 Million Dollars For The Original Lavender Ring
> 
> FOR $39.95 YOU GET THIS REMARKABLE REPLICA
> 
> The Sterling Silver Shank with a 6 prong setting hold this sparkling lavender CZ. This simplistic design allows all focus to be on this magnificent lavender single stone.


----------



## Anima

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-lakers-bryantcase&prov=ap&type=lgns

Now the want the records from the rape crisis center which is confidential under state law.


----------



## bfan1

*What are the odds?*

Phil Jackson in Eagle, CO. the same night as Kobe without knowing Kobe was there!

 

LINK


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

I was stunned. In the entire USA, in the off season, the very night Kobe was rapping a woman, his coach was a few miles down the road, in a small nowhere town.

That's almost too strange to be true.


----------



## yangsta

*Kobe get's a huge tattoo...*










he now literally has guilty written all over him....so much for looking clean cut for the jury...


----------



## Siouxperior

Whatever it is, it's one ugly Tat.


----------



## HKF

*Re: Kobe get's a huge tattoo...*



> Originally posted by <b>yangsta</b>!
> 
> he now literally has guilty written all over him....so much for looking clean cut for the jury...


You do realize he will have a suit covering the tatoo, not a cut off white tee right? Would it have been better if he got it on his A** instead? :uhoh:


----------



## yangsta

Maybe this is the look he needs?


----------



## HKF

Comparing Kobe Bryant to Mike Tyson. 

hangs head in shame.  :nonono::nonono:


----------



## GNG

At least Kobe had an excuse to get a tattoo other than being a schizotypal lunatic.










Even so, that is one of the ugliest tattoos I've ever seen.


----------



## Scinos

Wonder why Kobe got it ? I agree it looks pretty ugly, but some other players have bad tattoo's...e.g Mike Bibby's tattoo :sour:.


----------



## barfo

What the hell is it? The top part looks like a King's logo. 
The bottom part appears to be two women - Vanessa and the woman from Eagle, perhaps? What are they holding? A $4 million dollar ring?

barfo


----------



## Muffin

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> At least Kobe had an excuse to get a tattoo other than being a schizotypal lunatic.


We'll let the jury/judge determine that. :laugh:


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

Kobe is, IMHO, the best player in the league. However, he's also a wannabe and this is another attempt at being hip. Kobe, you're a square- live with it. It's neither a crime or a shame. Now, on the other hand, rape is a crime & a shame.

Maybe it's his pre-prison tattoo.


----------



## Storyteller

LA Radio just reported that this is the prosecution's presentation of events (as described by Dectective Winters) of what happened that night:

The woman engaged in about 5 minutes of kissing with Kobe, which she consented to.

Then, Kobe started groping. She said, "I have to go."

At this point, Kobe grabbed her neck, blocked her from reaching the door, and controlled her movements. Eventually, he put both hands on her neck, bent her over a chair, released one hand off of her neck in order to remove enough clothing, then forced himself on her sexually.

She said, "No" clearly several times, although she was not shouting it. As he continued, she was unable to say anything because she was crying.

Afterwards, Kobe looked her square in the eye (while holding her) and asked, "You're not going to tell anyone about this, are you?" She said she wouldn't tell anyone, because she was afraid of what he might do if she didn't say that.


AGAIN, this is THE PROSECUTION'S PRESENTATION OF EVENTS as they were presented today, not facts of what happened.

But it gives us an idea of why charges were brought - what the woman says happened that night.


----------



## bfan1

*...*

That is even uglier than I imagined.

sick-simply sick


----------



## ProudBFan

Oh man... testimony fromt he pre-trial hearing is making it to press... and it's NOT pretty. This is already ugly for Kobe, but it looks like it's going to get SERIOUSLY ugly.

And... um... that can't be bad for our Blazers.

PBF


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

I think his defense has made a critical error here. I see there strategy, but it could backfire. They want to make this a "cause celeb" and try it in the newspapers. Then, when picking a jury, they can have a potential juror excused as they will have undoubtedly seen these accounts in the newspapers. Then, based on that, they ask for a new venue and delay the trial ensuring Kobe makes it though the playoffs and thereby makes more money. The downside is that Kobe's possible guilt will hang on him like his idiotic tattoo. And that will effect the Lakers as well.


----------



## Anima

> The woman said that Bryant forced her to kiss his penis after the attack, Winters testified. He said a nurse who examined the woman later at a hospital found injuries consistent with a sexual assault.
> 
> The prosecution presented photographs showing injuries to the victim, including one of a bruise on her jaw.




http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-bryantcase&prov=ap&type=lgns


----------



## Ed O

Just badness all around.

Strip out a couple of facts from the prosecution's account and nothing illegal (other than adultery) occured. I'm not sure that Kobe can prove, though, that she wasn't crying or that she said, "No."

Of course, the burden is on the prosecution, but if they can meet a certain threshold where people believe Kobe's guilty, there's no fact or logic that Bryant's side can really present (as far as I can see) to be an affirmative defense.

Imagining oneself as the person who's actually "right" here is horrible. The alleged victim for obvious reasons, and the alleged criminal because innocence is seemingly impossible to prove. Bad, bad stuff. 

Ed O.


----------



## Anima

On 20/20 there said there was blood from the alleged victim on the inside of Kobe's shirt. How does someone explain that?


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>Epadfield</b>!
> On 20/20 there said there was blood from the alleged victim on the inside of Kobe's shirt. How does someone explain that?


I don't know how someone would explain that. Of course, considering how the evidence will come out in court I'm not sure we need to rely on 20/20 to get the truth.

It seems like that woulda been a bigger piece of news that the prosecution would have introduced on the first day.

It's possible that it was introduced and just not highlighted by the stories I've read, but it seems doubtful to me.

Ed O.


----------



## Blazer Ringbearer

I saw mention of it in the ESPN article, fwiw...


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>Blazer Ringbearer</b>!
> I saw mention of it in the ESPN article, fwiw...


You are correct that it is mentioned in the article on ESPN.com. The first version of the story that I read from the AP did not make mention of it.

Of course, this is just the sheriff testifying that blood was found on Kobe's shirt. The evidence itself will be open to examination by the defense if/when it's entered at trial.

I don't know what an explanation for how blood from the victim could be on Kobe's shirt. Let me take a few cracks at it:

-- It's possible that the alleged victim had a cut on her hand and it came from when they were locked in a mutual embrace as they were kissing.

-- It's possible that Kobe scratched her when they were having sex and he wiped the blood off on his shirt.

(Note that these are potential positions the defense could take and NOT my judgment or best guess as to why blood would be there.)

I'm sure there're more potential explanations that experienced and well-paid defense attorneys could come up with. 

Ed O.


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

Ed O, I disagree entirely with your opinion. My profession is, literally, listening to people and determining the facts. I have been doing this for almost 2 decades and it includes substantial court time. I am also an arbitrator for the states of OR & WA. 

While no one can tell how a jury will decide, the 'facts' are stacking more against Kobe. It is also apparent, if one applies various standards, that her story is more credible. 

His attorney is going to have to play the sleaze card, race card, big pro athlete being hit on for money card, and any other possible to save Kobe. He's hurting and his guilt looks more and more certain. So far, her story appears very cohesive and consistent.

Now, all that said, Kobe's defense may shed more light that makes his story very credible and my opinion may well change. But so far, her story is making perfect sense and is about as consistent & plausible as to what really happened as a story w/facts can get.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>BLAZER PROPHET</b>!
> Ed O, I disagree entirely with your opinion. My profession is, literally, listening to people and determining the facts. I have been doing this for almost 2 decades and it includes substantial court time. I am also an arbitrator for the states of OR & WA.


What part of my opinion do you disagree with? I actually didn't give an opinion in my most recent post, other than that defense attorneys will have alternate possible answers if it turns out that Kobe's shirt has the alleged victim's blood on it. I don't really see how one can disagree with that opinion with a straight face, because that's what defense attorneys are paid to do.



> While no one can tell how a jury will decide, the 'facts' are stacking more against Kobe. It is also apparent, if one applies various standards, that her story is more credible.


Considering Kobe's story hasn't been told, of course it's more credible. The only witness so far has been the sheriff. How could Kobe's side possibly be considered credible assuming the alleged victim's story is credible at all? 

This is the prosecution's opportunity to score as many points as they can in the court of general opinion, and it'll be a new ballgame when the actual trial starts. These hearings are generally waived because the defense is really just a sitting duck as the prosecution unloads. I would have been shocked had the first day gone badly for the prosecution.

The introduction of evidence in the actual case and in preliminary hearings (and most arbitration) are, as you know, totally different. Hearsay and some inadmissible evidence are allowed in preliminary hearings (and many arbitration cases) but not when the rubber meets the road.



> His attorney is going to have to play the sleaze card, race card, big pro athlete being hit on for money card, and any other possible to save Kobe. He's hurting and his guilt looks more and more certain. So far, her story appears very cohesive and consistent.


I don't think that playing the sleeze card is avoidable... how can it NOT be sleezy when a woman that Kobe doesn't know agrees to come up to his room, flirt, make out and then have sex? The last factor is, of course, the crux of the matter to be determined.

At best (for the defense), Kobe's an adulterer. The alleged victim is either a rape victim or a casual fornicator and a liar (or mentally unstable). There's no way for the defense to merely shine the light of justice and make everyone look good. Sleeze is a necessity.

As far as the race and money cards: I don't see how they could be, or why they should be, avoided, either. Of course there's rape shield laws in effect, and I don't know the particulars of how Colorado's works, but the argument that a person could be motivated to stage an event like this in order to get to a rich athlete's purse strings certainly seems possible, if not likely. It also seems to me that there's a possibility that the alleged victim was embarassed by the nature of her encounter with a person of different ethnicity than her (I'm taking special care to dance around land mines here) and the shame she felt became a reason to blame Kobe.

If the defense does NOT bring these things up (unless they've won the case elsewhere) they are, IMO, not doing their job. Their job is to help get a not guilty verdict by leaving the jury with reasonable doubt. Both of these elements are potential avenues for maintaining (or re-introducing) reasonable doubt as to why Kobe would be telling the truth and the alleged victim lying.

Ed O.


----------



## bfan1

> Originally posted by <b>Epadfield</b>!
> On 20/20 there said there was blood from the alleged victim on the inside of Kobe's shirt. How does someone explain that?


This is very easily explained, especially if the blood is anywhere near the bottom of his shirt...

OK-I have to rant a minute....

I also think this crap going around about stangulation is ridiculous. Mr. Winters clearly stated that the grip was not one to cut off her breath....hello-think of how big Kobe's hands are...how small her neck probably is....height difference....
it is silly to think that he couldn't control her with his hands around her neck/neck area and not leave a mark. He wouldn't have to use much strength at all.

Her story is extremely plausible in my opinion. It will be very interesting to hear Kobe's. 

If they ahd been on a bed or something I would be more inclined to lean Kobe's way...but if he did it the way it is being told-over a chair from behind.....I do not find it easy at all to believe that was in any way consensual. Flirting-kissing...is not a green light for forced entry!


Also...has anyone else noticed that different stories are being told regarding the tattoo? Some say she lifted up her SHIRT, some say SKIRT...then the tatoo is said to be on her back and it is also said to be on her ankle. So did she lift up her her skirt to show a tatoo on the ankle? IE-a longer skirt. (she was at work so it is fairly safe to assume she had work attire on) Did she lift up her skirt to reveal a tatoo on her back and also her bottom? Did she lift up her shirt to reveal a tattoo on her back? These are all VERY different scenerios.

As for the possible 3 men.....what difference does it make if she slept with 20 other men? Does that give any man the right to bend her over a chair and rape her from behind? I can't believe they even think that is an issue. The way this was presented paints a very clear picture of a lawyer grasping at straws. Mentioning the name 6 times is stupid too. We all know it was intentional. She is going to PO the judge so much they will lose any chance of any breaks they may have gotten. Her antics are not helping Kobe.

It is going to be a long long ordeal....I think it is time to rent more movies. The TV is just going to make me crazy!


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>bfan1</b>!
> 
> As for the possible 3 men.....what difference does it make if she slept with 20 other men?


Some of the seemingly key evidence is vaginal damage that could have been caused by forcible entry by Bryant... or by multiple sex partners in a short period. At least that's the reason that the lawyers supposedly asked the question. I gotta say that the science behind that is so far from my knowledge base that I can't even hazard a guess as to whether it's legit or not.

The other explanation for why the question was asked is to paint the alleged victim in a negative light... of course, it could be both.

Ed O.


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> As far as the race and money cards: I don't see how they could be, or why they should be, avoided, either. Of course there's rape shield laws in effect, and I don't know the particulars of how Colorado's works, but the argument that a person could be motivated to stage an event like this in order to get to a rich athlete's purse strings certainly seems possible, if not likely. It also seems to me that there's a possibility that the alleged victim was embarassed by the nature of her encounter with a person of different ethnicity than her (I'm taking special care to dance around land mines here) and the shame she felt became a reason to blame Kobe.
> 
> Ed O.


Ed, I asked myself these very same questions. It is said that her mother told her that she was raped, could it be the landmine that you danced around  have anything into expediting the decision. I know many *older* parents (of any race) aren't too fond of those kinds of relationships, usually parents over 50. I don't know but that could be the case.

Also with the 3 men in 3 days, I think Mackey used that as an example that the vaginal tearing could have come from either of those men and not Kobe only, which might make the small tearing not even be admissable as evidence. I think she was trying to taint a part of the prosecution's evidence.


----------



## Anima

I meant how does a defense explain that? I read somewhere before that was raped from behind and needed stitches at a hospital and I don't think it's exactly common to need stitches after consensual sex.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>Epadfield</b>!
> I meant how does a defense explains that? I read somewhere before that was raped from behind and needed stitches at a hospital and I don't think it's exactly common to need stitches after consensual sex.


It's also not common to go into a hotel room and start flirting with a guest, is it? Or to get up to leave and then start making out with him?

I'm not (*NOT*) saying that these thing leads to the other logically, but this is not a normal situation all the way around.

I don't really know what you mean by "how does a defense explains that". I smell a typo or two in there, but I'm not being nitpicky; I just don't know what you mean.

And remember it's not the defense's job to explain anything. It's the prosecution's job to prove that it happened. An assertion that Kobe raped her from behind is worthless... that's a conclusory statement that can only be made (at least in legal terms) after the jury decides whether there WAS rape.

Getting back to the stitches (*shiver*): if that was what happened, it will be introduced. I don't think that it's impossible to explain even if that's what happened, but I'm not a medical expert so I wouldn't know.

Ed O.


----------



## M0J0

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1635261



> "They got in all the stuff that is harmful to Kobe. When the witness started taking a beating on cross-examination, they move to close," Kelley said.
> 
> 
> Larry Pozner, former president of the Colorado Criminal Defense Bar, said it appeared to be a defensive action. "I think yesterday's move was a snap move where they said this is getting even worse than we envisioned," he said.





> Earlier, prosecutors had supported a public hearing, and Kelley called the move a "flip-flop."
> 
> 
> "They got in all the stuff that is harmful to Kobe. When the witness started taking a beating on cross-examination, they move to close," Kelley said.





> Pozner said prosecutors made a tactical error by introducing photographs of the woman's injuries and allowing Winters to describe the nurse's conclusions. That gave the defense an opening to bring up the woman's sexual history.





> The prosecution was hurt by the defense's actions Thursday, said Robert Pugsley, a professor at Southwestern University School of Law in Los Angeles.
> 
> 
> "It's not going to be a piece of cake to get a conviction against Kobe Bryant," Pugsley said.



It's not looking so bad for Kobe. So far, the prosecution team seems outmatched.


----------



## bfan1

*...*

It's a shame when determining guilt or innocense is based on who works the crowd better.

How long before Kobe's lawyer gets a make over?


----------



## Ed O

*Re: ...*



> Originally posted by <b>bfan1</b>!
> It's a shame when determining guilt or innocense is based on who works the crowd better.
> 
> How long before Kobe's lawyer gets a make over?


I don't think that image has anything to do with what's happened so far in terms of guilt or innocence. Once a jury is involved, I can see it having some bearing, but at this point the judge almost certainly doesn't care about how the attorneys look.

It's interesting that legal analysts seem split on how the early returns look for Kobe...

Ed O.


----------



## M0J0

http://www.nydailynews.com/10-11-2003/news/gossip/story/125787p-112756c.html



> Retired Eagle County District Court Judge William Jones said Mackey asked the question because she has physical evidence suggesting the tearing could have happened during an earlier sexual encounter.
> 
> *"There was more than one man's semen found in her panties," Jones said. "That's what's behind all of this."*


----------



## bfan1

*...*



> "There was more than one man's semen found in her panties," Jones said. "That's what's behind all of this."


OK...so there is all this talk about what a loaner Kobe has been. Suppose the second man's "evidence" came from Kobe? Could it be that he was trying to convince himself he was still a man by raping her? Meaning it was Kobe who had been with another man? Insane I know...but sheesh so is everything else!


----------



## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant

*Re: ...*



> Originally posted by <b>bfan1</b>!
> 
> 
> OK...so there is all this talk about what a loaner Kobe has been. Suppose the second man's "evidence" came from Kobe? Could it be that he was trying to convince himself he was still a man by raping her? Meaning it was Kobe who had been with another man? Insane I know...but sheesh so is everything else!



You cant be serious. Grasping at straws arent we? Anything to hold on to hope that Kobe actually may have committed this crime huh. Anyway, Mackey is one of the best in the business. I highly, *HIGHLY* doubt she was just throwing out the 3 men in 3 days for the hell of it. She has something to back up her claims. More will soon be reveled. And hopefully, this modern day style lynching attempt of Kobe Bryant will be over and done with.


----------



## bfan1

*...*

you missed the point.

I was showing how extreme this thing is going to get.
They are smearing her...it won't be long before the tables turn...

It isn't so outlandish...actually it is a common rape motivator. Stranger things have happened.

I don't care how it turns out-I just hope there is justice wherever it is needed.


----------



## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant

Smearing her? How? 

This woman is accusing a man of a crime that can send him to prison for life. What are Kobe's defense attorneys suppose to do? Treat her with kid golves? Please.

Mackey bringing to light the possiblity this woman could have been with 3 men on 3 different days is extremely relavant to this case. Whether some will look upon it as smearing or not. Its relevant. 

The DA bringing into evidence the brusing and tearing makes it so. Being as sexually active as she may have been could absolutely play apart in this woman's injuries. If they found the semen of another man in her body or on her clothing, who's to say THAT man didnt cause her bruises? 

If she slept with someone shortly after sleeping with Kobe, its Kobe's right to bring this fact up at the prelim or/and trial. The minute she decided to press these charges, she became fair game.


----------



## el_Diablo

"The minute she decided to press these charges, she became fair game."

after this, I really don't wonder why so many rapes are never reported.


----------



## bfan1

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> Smearing her? How?
> 
> This woman is accusing a man of a crime that can send him to prison for life. What are Kobe's defense attorneys suppose to do? Treat her with kid golves? Please.


Hello??? Please pay attention-I am not arguing with you. Of course they will smear her...and the whole thing is going to get ugly and EXTREME.


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> The DA bringing into evidence the brusing and tearing makes it so. Being as sexually active as she may have been could absolutely play apart in this woman's injuries. If they found the semen of another man in her body or on her clothing, who's to say THAT man didnt cause her bruises?


Speaking of grasping at straws  Accoding to her claims, Kobe caused the photographed bruises around her neck and jaw when he was physically restraining and raping her. In my experience at least, thats never been the result of a consensual encounter, which of course is now his flip-flopped claim after his lawyers explained it to him that the DNA evidence he left behind, proves that he did have sex with her. If Kobe is innocent, why did he lie to the police? 

Of course those bruises could have been caused in many other ways. She could have fallen off of a ladder onto her neck and jaw... or maybe she was taking a nap in an apple orchard, and multiple apples fell on her at once... it could be that she's into asphyxiation and some other lover of hers was fullfilling her fantasies... but those injuries are consistent with the story she told the police about her encounter with Kobe, and strongly support her claims of rape IMO.

STOMP


----------



## PauloCatarino

> Originally posted by <b>STOMP</b>!
> 
> Speaking of grasping at straws  Accoding to her claims, Kobe caused the photographed bruises around her neck and jaw when he was physically restraining and raping her. In my experience at least, thats never been the result of a consensual encounter, which of course is now his flip-flopped claim after his lawyers explained it to him that the DNA evidence he left behind, proves that he did have sex with her. If Kobe is innocent, why did he lie to the police?
> 
> STOMP


Photographed bruises? That´s news for me... I thought the Marshall testimony in the preliminary hearing was that the girl had no visible bruises in her neck...
I could be wrong, nonetheless...

Just starving for info... can you provide a link to those "photographed bruises" thing?


----------



## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant

The lawyer repeatedly got Winters to acknowledge that medical examinations showed* no marks, bruises or other injuries to her genitals, neck or the rest of her body that might indicate forced sex.*

http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/ribbons/sports_ribbons/inside/2003-pro-basketball.gif

So maybe you need to check your sources Stomp.


----------



## STOMP

I got my report via an AP reporter being interviewed on Tolbert's Bay Area sports talk the radio last Thursday, and was out camping in beautiful Big Sur through Monday. I don't think I heard it wrong, but maybe the reporter had the facts crossed up in a rush to get the first report out... I'll read up.

BTW- your link didn't work for me.

STOMP


----------



## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant

Try that one

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-10-09-detective-details_x.htm


----------



## el_Diablo

"Mackey challenged Winters' testimony that the woman had cuts and other injuries that were "not consistent with consensual sex." Winters' testimony was based on comments from rape-treatment nurses at a local hospital who examined the woman the next day. The lawyer repeatedly got Winters to acknowledge that medical examinations showed no marks, bruises or other injuries to her genitals, neck or the rest of her body that might indicate forced sex."

I don't understand this, the nurses said she had marks on her, but then the medical examination said she didn't?


----------



## Anima

Anyone else kind it odd this was brought up in a AP article?



> The 25-year-old Bryant, who is black, contends he had consensual sex with the woman.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-bryantcase&prov=ap&type=lgns

Gee, thanks for bringing that to the attention of all the people who have seen his *** on the TV over the last 3 months and didn't know if he was black or just a overly tan white guy


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>Epadfield</b>!
> 
> Gee, thanks for bringing that to the attention of all the people who have seen his *** on the TV over the last 3 months and didn't know if he was black or just a overly tan white guy


The media = evil. :dead:


----------



## M0J0

*This case is turning into a farce*

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-101503kobe_lat,1,1180546.story?coll=la-headlines-sports

_*Attorney Pamela Mackey asked Eagle County Sheriff's Det. Doug Winters about his initial interview with the accuser. Winters said that the woman never told Bryant "no" during five minutes of sexual intercourse in an Edwards, Colo., hotel room June 30. When the woman resisted, Bryant stopped, Winters said.

"When she moved his hand away, he stopped," Mackey said.

"Yes," replied Winters.

"There is no dispute he stopped," Mackey said.

"Correct," Winters said.*_


...


_* The detective also said the underwear the woman wore during a hospital examination July 1 contained sperm and semen from someone other than Bryant.*_


...


_*"I can't understand why they would bring such a fatally defective case," said Craig Silverman, a former Denver chief deputy district attorney. "It's not fair to Kobe Bryant. It's not fair to the accuser."

Winters also testified that the night auditor at the hotel — not the bellman as was indicated Thursday — was the first person the accuser saw after her encounter with Bryant. In a letter to investigators, the night auditor wrote that the accuser "did not look or sound as if there had been any problem" and that the woman, who worked at the hotel, finished her shift.*_


----------



## M0J0

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/15/news/opinion/courtwatch/main578304.shtml

_*We don't know the full story of what went on between Bryant and his accuser on the evening of June 30th -- face it, we may never know -- but Bryant's attorneys already have succeeded in filling us (and potential jurors) in on the many holes in the prosecution's case. There are problems with the physical evidence that prosecutors say link Bryant to a crime. There are problems with the alleged victim's credibility. There are problems for prosecutors with on-scene witnesses. And, perhaps most importantly, there are problems for prosecutors when it comes to what makes sense and what doesn't about the story they need the jury to believe at trial.*_


----------



## Ed O

Well, in case anyone missed it, a judge ruled NBA star Kobe Bryant must stand trial on a charge of raping a 19-year-old Colorado resort worker.

I don't see how the judge could have ruled any other way. It will be interesting to see when the trial proper starts, and how heavily things will weigh on Kobe in the mean time...

Ed O.


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> The lawyer repeatedly got Winters to acknowledge that medical examinations showed* no marks, bruises or other injuries to her genitals, neck or the rest of her body that might indicate forced sex. So maybe you need to check your sources Stomp. *


*

From Ed's posted article here is the judge presiding over the preliminary trial on why he sent it on to trial (I trust thats a good enough source for you  )...

_______________________________________________
In his nine-page ruling, Gannett said prosecutors had presented "a minimal amount of evidence" but did offer photographs of injuries to the woman that suggested "submission and force."
_______________________________________________


I think your posted article was trying to say that the photographed injuries were not definitively caused by rape and only rape, but it was too poorly written to make that point clear. I'll continue to suspend my judgement on whether Kobe is guilty until the jury decides.

STOMP*


----------



## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant

“Judge Gannett is holding his nose while he passes this case to the next level,” said Craig Silverman, a Denver defense attorney and former prosecutor. 

Judges normally don’t issue written rulings after preliminary hearings, and the fact that Gannett wrote his suggests the case is fraught with difficulties, said Scott Robinson, a Denver attorney. 

“It is probably gratifying to the defense that the judge has gently taken the prosecution to task for the limited amount of evidence presented, but that is probably of little solace,” he said. 

“The reality is that unless there is significantly more substantial evidence available at trial, and a suitable explanation for some of the puzzling physical evidence which surfaced last week, a conviction looks like a completely unlikely scenario,” he said 

www.msnbc.com/news/982332.asp?0cv=CA01


Although prosecutors got what they wanted, a trial, CBS News Correspondent Bill Whitaker reports they also got a stinging criticism from the judge, who, in an unusual move, characterized the prosecution's case as "weak." 

And after that blistering defense attack on the prosecution's evidence during the preliminary hearing, some court observers say the Eagle County District Attorney is limping into trial, his case battered and weakened. 

"I think the prosecution's case did take a heavy beating," prominent defense attorney Mickey Sherman told CBS. "We saw some pretty compelling evidence that's going to be very helpful for the defense at trial."

www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/05/national/main576570.shtml


*Analysis of ruling by a prosecuting attorney*"

*Here is the legal interpretation of that order:

"State, your case is a piece of crap. You didnt present any real evidence. All of it was contradicted with equally if not more plausible explanations. If not for a law requiring me to take this crap in the light most favorable to you, you would not get a bindover."

And, in legal terms, the judge was as clear as a bell.

No lawyer that actually tries cases reading that would think otherwise.

In fact, I beleive that but for the media spotlight the court would have dismissed the case. In really bad cases like this one courts often intervene and stop a total disaster like this case. But that isnt truly following the law which requires interpretation in the light most favorable to the state. 

But for that requirement, the court would have dumped this case.*


www.courts.state.co.us/exec/media/eagle/10-03/ordr_re_probable_cause.pdf

Although Defendant presented evidence attacking the credibility of the alleged victim, the Court cannot conclude that the hearsay statements of the alleged victim should be disregarded as either implausable and/or incredible as a matter of law, *notwithstanding inconsistancies in her statements and other evidence.* The Court did not, for purposes of determining the existance of probable cause, examine the credibility of any testimony (direct or hearsay).



This case is such a farce. The Judge says so much in his 7 page ruling. Charges should have never been filed to begin with. This case against Kobe is beyond weak. If he's convicted its nothing but a modern day lynching. No way can this case be proven beyond a resonable doubt.


----------



## STOMP

With the amount of media assigned to this case, I expect that there will be viewpoints expressed by so-called experts that range from Kobe being the devil incarnate to your other end of the spectrum view that he's so innocent that this is a modern day lynching. This is already happening before a vast majority of the relavant evidence has been presented, just imagine the stories once the actual trial starts. 

I'm still curious as to your opinion why this "innocent" guy lied to the police? Also do you have much (any?) experience with the legal system to allow you so definitively come to your conclutions that this case is a "farce" that "should never have been filed?" Your handle and eagerness to jump to the conclution of innocence seems to indicate that you might be just a tad biased.

STOMP


----------



## bfan1

*Just FYI*

Ruckreigle named judge for Kobe case:

LINK


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

Seems like an excellent choice of a judge. This will make it tougher for Kobe's attorney to play the race, rich athlete or any other 'card'. Which means a fair trial for Kobe.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>BLAZER PROPHET</b>!
> Seems like an excellent choice of a judge. This will make it tougher for Kobe's attorney to play the race, rich athlete or any other 'card'. Which means a fair trial for Kobe.


It's more "fair" for Kobe if he can't attempt to provide explanation for why the alleged victim might not be telling the truth? Labeling something a "card" doesn't make it a less legitimate path of examination, IMO.

Ed O.


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

Ed O- the answer is yes & no. 

Kobe should be provided legitimate opportunity to present evidence that is relevant and legal. But, IMHO, he does not have the right to turn the court into a circus, abuse the woman (again?) and make his defense an attempt to make a mockery of justice. Turning a trial into a farce is not a defense. The point of my last post was applauding a judge that has a reputation of being tough & fair to all parties.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>BLAZER PROPHET</b>!
> 
> Kobe should be provided legitimate opportunity to present evidence that is relevant and legal. But, IMHO, he does not have the right to turn the court into a circus, abuse the woman (again?) and make his defense an attempt to make a mockery of justice. Turning a trial into a farce is not a defense. The point of my last post was applauding a judge that has a reputation of being tough & fair to all parties.


Fair enough. Sorry if I misunderstood your point.

Ed O.


----------



## jackiejackal

*this is driving me crazy*

You don't have to be beaten up to be raped.
You don't have to have a bruised neck.
You don't need cuts in or on your genitals.

You have to be generally OVER POWERED by someone..

That doesn't have to add up to a bruised and battered body !!

My gosh people..have you never been held back from chasing
someone,or prevented from advancing,whatever !!
Was your body bruised just because you couldn't move away???

I can speak from experience,and have so in the past.
When someone stronger than you holds you in a pressing 
manner,it actually is SURPRIZINGLY easy for them.
The weight of someone stronger and bigger than you does the job in itself..
Just the pressing,pushing holds you in place !!!

When you can't move,there is no scratching,bruising,like in a fight.

Because you can't move into a position to struggle.The struggle is
what adds to the bruising.

WHEN YOU CAN'T STRUGGLE....YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE 
BRUISED AND BATTERED. YOU ARE NOT MOVING.

For every rape victim that is bruised and battered,there are 10-20
where there is almost no trace..just the semen or some DNA
evidence.

My very first thought that evening while being pinned down was
a panic feeling... BECAUSE I LITERALLY COULD NOT MOVE.

I am astounded that there is not more folks on tv trying to educate the public on this.


----------



## Ed O

*Re: this is driving me crazy*



> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> 
> I am astounded that there is not more folks on tv trying to educate the public on this.


While education of the crime seems to be a good thing (and a removal of the stigma that surrounds rape... which would allow more of the scumbags who committ rape to be accused and convicted seems to require additional education), I don't think it's fair to educate using the Bryant case as an example before he's convicted.

The thing is, though, that it is necessary to prove that an accused person did what they were alleged to have done beyond a reasonable doubt. If it's just a matter of who's telling the truth between the two parties, it seems that in most situations reasonable doubt will remain.

In the case at hand, I don't think that a person is overpowered to the point of being unable to resist by bent over a chair. It's certainly potentially emotionally paralyzing, but it seems to leave the entire upper part of the body free to push/scratch/claw/shout for help. I don't know, though, because I don't think the facts have been made clear yet.

Ed O.


----------



## jackiejackal

*kobe just got a rain of boos in Phoenix*

way to go Phoenix !!!
You are my sleeper team this year.

Thanks for booing Kobe also.


----------



## Anima

Selfish Kobe should just go away


----------



## jackiejackal

*this just gags me*

“This is a crown for my queen,” he has said of his wife. “She’s my angel. She’s a blessing to me, her and Natalia.”


My Uncle Charles down in Orange County sys that the scuttlebutt
was that they were never seen together..
she was kind of a bar queen looking at herself in the mirror... without Kobe..
and now this???
pulease !!!!


----------



## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant

Then why do you read it? Why do you read or listen to anything concerning Kobe and his family? Dont concern yourself with it and the gags should stop. Just a hunch.


----------



## RG

Ahhhh, is the pedestal a bit wobbly?


----------



## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant

never put him on one to begin with. so i guess the answer to your question would be no.


----------



## ScottVdub

Yo, whys this gotta be the "fred meyer" of kobe threads? This thread has lots of replys, its large quanitities man, it needs to be the "costco" of kobe threads. think about it, sleep on it, come back and tell me what u think.


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>ScottVdub</b>!
> Yo, whys this gotta be the "fred meyer" of kobe threads? This thread has lots of replys, its large quanitities man, it needs to be the "costco" of kobe threads. think about it, sleep on it, come back and tell me what u think.


Because Fred Meyer is a local thing, and some of us grew up in "Fred Meyer" homes, sons of Fred Meyer employees.

It's your one stops hopping store, and despite Krogers attempt to screw up Fred's, it's the best thing going today!

woo! 

oops..I channeled Ric Flair there.


----------



## bfan1

*No suprises here...*

11/13/03



> Kobe Bryant made his first appearance before the judge who will preside over his sexual assault trial on Thursday, deciding against entering a formal plea for now and saying nothing during a brief hearing.





> Attorneys on both sides told the judge they guessed they would need two to three weeks for a trial. Ruckriegle set a pretrial hearing for Dec. 19.





> After Bryant enters his plea, state law requires the trial must be scheduled within six months unless he waives his speedy-trial right. Bryant's attorneys probably will ask for an arraignment later to delay the start of the trial, said Dan Recht, past president of the Colorado Criminal Defense Bar.
> 
> "My guess is the defense wants the trial to start after the basketball season," Recht said.





LINK


----------



## bfan1

*just another FYI*

LINK 



> DENVER -- Prosecutors in the Kobe Bryant sexual assault case have filed a motion asking a judge to order the NBA star undergo testing for the virus that causes AIDS, a television station reported.


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

In reply to post #378 by 'jj', all your points are well taken and true.

However, a rape trial is often a word v. word affair. As such, there is a bit more of a burden of proof against the accuser. I would add, that this is as it should be. If not, any woman with an axe to grind could conjur up a serious charge to destroy a man's reputaion, business... and possibly see him wrongly incarcerrated for many years. That's where the "evidence" becomes so important. Is that right? No. Is it fair to the 'victim'? No. But, sexual assault charges are a very serious matter and there needs to be a certain amount of legitmate proof to convict.


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

My use of the word "affair" in the last post was an accident. Yes, a good pun, but unintentional.


----------



## Nightfly

Oh no... not this thread again!

I forgot about this actually...


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

Well, let's jazz it up.

Kobe the LA Laker star baller, er, player, er, shooting guard, er... is being denied in a mountain of legal challanges designed to delay the trial until after the playoffs.

His attorney has 3 plans. plan A is all these legal challanges- it has flopped. Plan B is a nonstop stream of misinformation to turn public tide against the accuser. Not a bad plot as a change of venue was denied (a wrong decision IMHO). Plan C is the race card and that's being saved for the trial itself.

If I were Kobe, I'd cop a plea if it would keep me from being Buba's new friend.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>BLAZER PROPHET</b>!
> 
> His attorney has 3 plans. plan A is all these legal challanges- it has flopped. Plan B is a nonstop stream of misinformation to turn public tide against the accuser. Not a bad plot as a change of venue was denied (a wrong decision IMHO). Plan C is the race card and that's being saved for the trial itself.


Well, even assuming your "3 plan" approach is correctly identified, there's still this: the state has to prove its case. There's the chance (a) that the evidence doesn't exist because the crime was not committed, and/or (b) the state will not be able to present any evidence that exists adequately.

I don't know whether Kobe's really guilty or not, but I don't think the actions taken by his defense team to date are outside the realm of possibility that he is innocent.

If I were in his shoes, innocent of the crime he's accused of, I know that I certainly wouldn't want to simply put the facts in front of a jury and take my chances. I'd scratch and claw to get out from under the charges before the jury was even formed. Juries are unpredictable and putting my life in their hands would be a final resort, even (as I say) if I was 100% innocent of the alleged crime.



> If I were Kobe, I'd cop a plea if it would keep me from being Buba's new friend.


He'll still be rich, even in prison, and I would be shocked if he won't have people who will suck up to him even in prison. There's a chance he could get out early, and what prisoner wouldn't want to be the guy who had Kobe's back when he was down and out?

Prison would suck for Kobe any way you slice it, but I doubt he'd be in the same danger that certain convicts would be.

Ed O.


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

Ed- You say he'd still be rich. Well, maybe. But if he goes for any appreciable length of time (IF he's geuilty and IF the state proves it's case) his wife & posse may very well take care of that. She seems to have a propensity for expensive jewelry. Also, what good is $$ when you're someone's boyfriend in prison?


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>BLAZER PROPHET</b>!
> Ed- You say he'd still be rich. Well, maybe. But if he goes for any appreciable length of time (IF he's geuilty and IF the state proves it's case) his wife & posse may very well take care of that. She seems to have a propensity for expensive jewelry.


You're making value judgments about his wife that I simply am not willing to make... and I don't think that I'm aware of Kobe having any posse to speak of. His family certainly doesn't need to suck him dry, considering his father's successful pro basketball career.



> Also, what good is $$ when you're someone's boyfriend in prison?


That's like asking what good eating healthy foods is after you're dead... obviously if he gets abused then no amount of money is going to make him feel better about it.

The thing is, he'll have friends that will help him NOT get abused more than I would... some inmates probably will be impressed by his celebrity and some will be willing to protect him just to be buddies with one of the best ball players in the world... plus there's the chance that Kobe will remember who his friends were in prison, and maybe Bryant will promise to grant them total consciousness on their death beds.

So they'd have that going for them...

Ed O.


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

Actually Ed, I have to offer a small apology. My attempts at humor are probably not all that funny.

But my point is that money is worthless when you're in prison for any length of time. Many a rich person has found that out.

As to the abuse in prison, I used to work with incarcerated veterans and the horror stories they tell are scary. If Kobe really is guilty, he'd darn well better be working a plea bargin to stay out or he'll be a definate target for some inmates. Remember, Kobe's a kid from Europe for the most part. If he was from the 'hood he might have it a bit better.


----------



## RG

I've been there. If he's found guilty of rape even those impressed with his celebrity would not dare to admit siding with a convicted rapist. There is a term in prison "rapo status" it means you have nothing coming. I'm not sure how anyone is protected in there no matter how many friends you make, there are just too many opportunities for getting to someone. If only one person with the drive to get you wants to, he will. It may take some time, but hey...they have a lot of that.


----------



## BLAZER PROPHET

In the conversations I've had with inmates & ex-inmates, they say a 'hit' can be arrainged to either maime or kill very easily. Celebrities are often targets for the notiriety and sexual abuse is fairly commonmplace no matter who one is (or thinks they are). It's a tough & abusive lifestyle and most people have to "play the game" to survive. It gives me the shivers thinking about it.

It seems to me Kobe's attorney is pushing as hard as she can to try and ascertain what the chances are of a guilty verdict. If they appear pretty good, she'll cop a plea for him if it results in minimal jail time.


----------



## Ed O

Thanks for the insight (however gruesome it is). I can't even pretend to know what generally happens in prison, and I appreciate the information (I wish it painted a rosier picture, although getting into whether a convicted rapist "deserves" to get abused in prison is opening a whole other discussion...)

Ed O.


----------



## Nightfly

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> Thanks for the insight (however gruesome it is). I can't even pretend to know what generally happens in prison, and I appreciate the information (I wish it painted a rosier picture, although getting into whether a convicted rapist "deserves" to get abused in prison is opening a whole other discussion...)
> 
> Ed O.


I got a buddy who's dad went to jail. A Maximum security joint. I won't give details of the crime, but he told me to watch that old documentary "Scared Straight." He said that was a pretty accurate depiction of what happens in jail (although he didn't say it in those exact words...)

That man is one big dude. I wouldn't **** with him for any reason in the world.

I doubt Kobe would get sent to Max security though.


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## Masbee

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> The thing is, he'll have friends that will help him NOT get abused more than I would... some inmates probably will be impressed by his celebrity and some will be willing to protect him just to be buddies with one of the best ball players in the world... plus there's the chance that Kobe will remember who his friends were in prison, and maybe Bryant will promise to grant them total consciousness on their death beds.
> 
> So they'd have that going for them...
> 
> Ed O.


Thanks for the Caddyshack reference, nicely interwoven with your point. What was your point again? Oh yeah, Prison sucks, but would suck less for Kobe. No pun intended.


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## BLAZER PROPHET

Kobe would go in with the "general population". By far the worst place to be. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is gonna care who he is (or was). He'll be just another piece of meat.

I've said it beofre, my hope is that justice prevails- if he's really innocent, I hope he walks. If he's guilty, I hope he's punished.


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## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>Masbee</b>!
> Thanks for the Caddyshack reference, nicely interwoven with your point.


I left an opening for one and all, but nobody pulled the trigger by posting, "Which is nice."

Ah, well.

Ed O.


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## RG

Think of it this way. What kind of rep could you build if you were the first inmate to lay wood to Kobe Bryant? Any of these guys who saw the Reggie Miller or Chris Childs fights will be licking their chops for the chance.


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## BLAZER PROPHET

Yeah, there are some NBA ballers that are pretty tough, but Kobe's soft. And he's pretty. Hmmm...., maybe THAT's why he got the tatoos.


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