# Detriot Piston Fire-Sale?



## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

There have been rumors that Joe Dumars is looking to begin rebuilding the Pistons. Firing Flip Saunders appears to be a clear signal that the guy means business and will begin tearing this team down if the right trades come his way. I know it will be difficult to sell any trade to them but I think we should definately be interested if they are interested in some of our players. 

I personally really like Tayshaun Prince and what he could potentially do for our team. I feel that his length on the perimeter can effectively help improve our defensive shortcomings and is still young enough to be a long term investment. He won't be someone to build around but certainly the kind of role player that could make all the difference turning us into a respectable team if we're going to keep around guys like Curry.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*No Prince*

He is going nowhere. I have spoken to a person in the Piston's organization and they absolutely love him. Never, ever going to happen for the Knicks.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

I would think that Detroit would be looking to ship out some of the older guys like Wallace, Mcdyess, and maybe Billups....if they think Stuckey is the next point guard of the pistons.


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

I would care more for Billups, personally I want Billups on this team. GET IT DONE WALSH! I think that'd be a great answer to our PG woes.


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

I'll take Eddy Curry. If it's cheap.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

I really don't think the Pistons should break that team up so drastically. I think they should get rid of Sheed and Dice, but everyone else should try at it again. They just need to make some deals that will keep them rght back in the hunt for another ring.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*They only need front court help....*

1,2,and 3 are set. If they draft well late like they did with Prince, they will only need a little help.


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## Dean the Master (Feb 19, 2006)

Well, even though I don't like it, I see the Pistons going to rebuild mode. They have the same squad since 04 champion days. They've came close every year since then, but never win it again. Are they going into the derby for 2010 free agency? 

Anyway, in Knicks stand point, getting rid of all the cancers would be a nice move if Detroit is really holding a fire sale. Billups would be a superb addon if he is here.


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

for a firesale, they wanted melo for billups and anthony, denver countered with packages including iverson and camby and they said no.......so the knicks really have nothing to offer compared to that.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

knickstorm said:


> for a firesale, they wanted melo for billups and anthony, denver countered with packages including iverson and camby and they said no.......so the knicks really have nothing to offer compared to that.


Well Billups is the best player on their team. We definately can not get a guy like Billups but we should be able to get Rasheed Wallace who is a problem child and whose production is falling off each year. Dumars is going ot realize soon enough that people are not going to give up franchise players for their players unless something is seriously wrong with the players they are recieving ie being injuried, baggage, etc. The Piston players mean little outside of their system with so many strong but not great players. They certainly are not going to be getting any better and are definately not getting any younger, so the time to make deals is now, when they still have value.


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: No Prince*



alphaorange said:


> He is going nowhere. I have spoken to a person in the Piston's organization and they absolutely love him. Never, ever going to happen for the Knicks.





> Pistons' small forward Tayshaun Prince has reportedly been placed on the trade market by executive Joe Dumars, according to The Detroit Free Press.
> 
> The rumor initially surfaced in a piece by Chad Ford of ESPN.com.
> 
> There are a handful of small forwards that are believed to be on the market including Richard Jefferson (New Jersey), Josh Howard (Dallas), Gerald Wallace (Charlotte), and Prince.


http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080619/SPORTS03/80619065/1051

On what level of authority in the Piston's organization is this person you've spoken to?


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*vp of operations......nm*

I'll take my source over chad ford. Things do change, however. At the time, that was the situation. Ford's comment doesn't make it not true.


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: vp of operations......nm*



alphaorange said:


> I'll take my source over chad ford. Things do change, however. At the time, that was the situation. Ford's comment doesn't make it not true.


Yeah, you might be right. I do believe that Dumars may leverage Prince for Bobcat's Wallace and 9th pick. I believe he'll do that and then possibly trade Chauncey and Rasheed for some veterans making the same but they'll come with a price of future talents.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: vp of operations......nm*



Gotham2krazy said:


> Yeah, you might be right. I do believe that Dumars may leverage Prince for Bobcat's Wallace and 9th pick. I believe he'll do that and then possibly trade Chauncey and Rasheed for some veterans making the same but they'll come with a price of future talents.


Gerald Wallace is better and younger than Prince right now. Why would they need to give up the 9th and him for Prince. The 9th pick alone in my opinion is overpaying for a guy that at best is nothing but a complimentary player and if not role player. I like Prince (he could mask many of our defensive flaws) but his value is largely derived from playing on a team that compliments his skills well and that is a title contender.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*You under-value Prince*

he is a starting caliber SF with GREAT defensive skills, decent ball handling skills with good passing, and is an improving jump shooter. The guy could average 18/5/5 with no problem.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: You over-value Prince*



alphaorange said:


> he is a starting caliber SF with GREAT defensive skills, decent ball handling skills with good passing, and is an improving jump shooter. The guy could average 18/5/5 with no problem.


If he could average 18ppg, he would have done so already on previous Piston teams in need of greater offensive production. He was a scorer in Kentucky but not on a NBA level. I'm not going to argue the fact that he is a starting SF but that does not mean much. Quentin Richardson is a starting caliber SF and he hardly impresses me as anything but a role player in the present state he is in. Like I said earlier though, I like Prince but I feel a lot of people overvalue him because he has had so many oppurtunities to demonstrate what he does best. Had he started his career on the Knicks, I think you'd hear all these people complaining about how he's garbage because of his inability to create his own shots and the lack of defensive backing he'd have with this team.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Come on Twink...*

you're better than that. He was the 4th option on that team. He shoots a high % and averages between 13.5 and 14.5 ppg every year in 32 min. Get him 36 and he'll get those numbers...especially if he becomes a third option. He would have no problem with 5 assists, either. He is already close to 5 boards and he shoots a good %.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Come on Twink...*



alphaorange said:


> you're better than that. He was the 4th option on that team. He shoots a high % and averages between 13.5 and 14.5 ppg every year in 32 min. Get him 36 and he'll get those numbers...especially if he becomes a third option. He would have no problem with 5 assists, either. He is already close to 5 boards and he shoots a good %.



To be honest with you, if he was not that 4th option on a team of guys that could be put into a multitude of positions on the floor offensively (especially on the perimeter for spacing), I think he'd be the Jared Jefferies of offense with a respectable jump shot. Both have similar M.O.'s coming into the league, both have similar games, similar physiques, similar demeanors, etc. The difference between the two is that Prince has had the fortunate of playing with guys that understand how to play within a system and a coach that forced him to be more assertative offensively (Larry Brown). 

I like Prince as a player because he has PROVEN to be a clutch player defensively but feel he would not be much outside an established and effective system. He's played nearly 40mpg twice in his career (04-05 and 06-07) and hasn't put up more than 15ppg. He just simply is not a scorer in this league and would be even worse if he did not have spot shooters on his team. He is not quick enough to get by defenders and scores by virtue of post up's against players several inches smaller than him which would become much more difficult if defenses were able to apply the faintest double. He has a nice all-around game that he could turn to but I don't think you realize how much he's dependant on a system to survive.


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: You over-value Prince*



TwinkieFoot said:


> If he could average 18ppg, he would have done so already on previous Piston teams in need of greater offensive production. He was a scorer in Kentucky but not on a NBA level. I'm not going to argue the fact that he is a starting SF but that does not mean much. Quentin Richardson is a starting caliber SF and he hardly impresses me as anything but a role player in the present state he is in. Like I said earlier though, I like Prince but I feel a lot of people overvalue him because he has had so many oppurtunities to demonstrate what he does best. Had he started his career on the Knicks, I think you'd hear all these people complaining about how he's garbage because of his inability to create his own shots and the lack of defensive backing he'd have with this team.


Have you ever watched Prince play??? Prince has some of the greatest post moves ever, he can always score with his hook shot. Along with that, you can't teach length, we've seen our fair shares of block shots from behind by Prince. Prince is a champion and he's a proven winner. However, the same cannot be said about Gerald Wallace who hasn't even made the playoffs. I think that Prince could be the offensive player Wallace is if Prince was the first or second option as well.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: You over-value Prince*



Gotham2krazy said:


> Have you ever watched Prince play??? Prince has some of the greatest post moves ever, he can always score with his hook shot. Along with that, you can't teach length, we've seen our fair shares of block shots from behind by Prince. Prince is a champion and he's a proven winner. However, the same cannot be said about Gerald Wallace who hasn't even made the playoffs. I think that Prince could be the offensive player Wallace is if Prince was the first or second option as well.


"...greatest post moves ever?" Have you watched him play? The guy has a solid post up game due to his length and counter moves but that post up game is not something a team can build around so take it easy before we annoint him the second coming of Hakeem Olajuwon. 

Riddle me this question. If Prince was as great a scorer as you mention, don't you think he'd be more than the 4th option on that team by now? The knock on them for years has been not having the kind of guy that can take over games offensively. If he could do that, why would the Pistons be in such hot pursuit for Carmelo Anthony? Why would they reportedly have had interest in Zach Randolph? Just promote Prince to one of the main scorers on the team and call it a day; he is still young enough after all.

Prince being better because he's been on a better team that has actually had a program established longer for 8 years is hardly any reason to believe Prince is better. Carmelo Anthony has not one anything of significance in his NBA career either but I'd never dare think Prince is better than him. Tracy McGrady or Kevin Durant has not either and I'd take them in a heart beat and twice on Sunday's over Prince.


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

*Re: You over-value Prince*



TwinkieFoot said:


> "...greatest post moves ever?" Have you watched him play? The guy has a solid post up game due to his length and counter moves but that post up game is not something a team can build around so take it easy before we annoint him the second coming of Hakeem Olajuwon.
> 
> Riddle me this question. If Prince was as great a scorer as you mention, don't you think he'd be more than the 4th option on that team by now? The knock on them for years has been not having the kind of guy that can take over games offensively. If he could do that, why would the Pistons be in such hot pursuit for Carmelo Anthony? Why would they reportedly have had interest in Zach Randolph? Just promote Prince to one of the main scorers on the team and call it a day; he is still young enough after all.
> 
> Prince being better because he's been on a better team that has actually had a program established longer for 8 years is hardly any reason to believe Prince is better. Carmelo Anthony has not one anything of significance in his NBA career either but I'd never dare think Prince is better than him. Tracy McGrady or Kevin Durant has not either and I'd take them in a heart beat and twice on Sunday's over Prince.


Okay, so I may have exaggerated on Prince's post moves, however Prince does have post moves which are highly effective. Secondly, I never said Prince was a great scorer. Thirdly, I compared Prince with Wallace and not Prince with Anthony, McGrady, or Durant. k thx bai.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: You over-value Prince*



Gotham2krazy said:


> Okay, so I may have exaggerated on Prince's post moves, however Prince does have post moves which are highly effective. Secondly, I never said Prince was a great scorer. Thirdly, I compared Prince with Wallace and not Prince with Anthony, McGrady, or Durant. k thx bai.


Dekembe Mutombo still has an effective hook shot. Should the Rockets start looking to turn him into one of the main players in their offense?

Generally when you claim someone has some of the "greatest post moves ever" in the game, you'd think he'd also be a great scorer considering that the list of such scorers includes Wilt Chamberlain whose scored more points than anyone in the league, Kareem Abdul-Jabber, Hakeem Olajuwon, etc. Even if you meant it in today's league, that would put him in the ranks of a Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan or Shaq who are all NBA great's themselves. Silly me for misunderstanding what you meant. Thirdly, you proposed that Prince was somehow better than Wallace because he as on a better team and I gave you a list of several NBA players who have been on teams that have been similarly unimpressive thus far beyond the regular season but are obviously better players than Prince. I think it proves a point that being on a team of better players does not make you better than a player obviously more talented than you. Hope I clarified a few things, take care, and "bai."


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

*Re: You over-value Prince*



TwinkieFoot said:


> Dekembe Mutombo still has an effective hook shot. Should the Rockets start looking to turn him into one of the main players in their offense?
> 
> Generally when you claim someone has some of the "greatest post moves ever" in the game, you'd think he'd also be a great scorer considering that the list of such scorers includes Wilt Chamberlain whose scored more points than anyone in the league, Kareem Abdul-Jabber, Hakeem Olajuwon, etc. Even if you meant it in today's league, that would put him in the ranks of a Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan or Shaq who are all NBA great's themselves. Silly me for misunderstanding what you meant. Thirdly, you proposed that Prince was somehow better than Wallace because he as on a better team and I gave you a list of several NBA players who have been on teams that have been similarly unimpressive thus far beyond the regular season but are obviously better players than Prince. I think it proves a point that being on a team of better players does not make you better than a player obviously more talented than you. Hope I clarified a few things, take care, and "bai."


what?!?!?! i'm a huge yao fan so i watch tons of rocket games or at least DVR it and get to it later on league pass, mutombo does not have an effective hook shot.....the only time he even shoots is either a clean up garbage bucket off an offensive rebound or if somehow the shotclock is almost up...they never feed it to him in the post so he can score.

and wilt chamberlain is not the all time leading scorer in the league


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Wow, Twinkie....*

You really went overboard. NOBODY said he was an elite scorer. I said he could average 18/5/5. Not many first options average that low. I also think Lee can average 18 if he gets 8 shots/game plus his garbage buckets. Eighteen/5/5 makes you a really nice player, not a bright star. I think you may be fooled by how much of a team player he is. Him scoring 18 does not make the Pistons better. But then, neither would 'Melo scoring 25.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: You over-value Prince*



knickstorm said:


> what?!?!?! i'm a huge yao fan so i watch tons of rocket games or at least DVR it and get to it later on league pass, mutombo does not have an effective hook shot.....the only time he even shoots is either a clean up garbage bucket off an offensive rebound or if somehow the shotclock is almost up...they never feed it to him in the post so he can score.
> 
> and wilt chamberlain is not the all time leading scorer in the league


Exactly my point. Mutombo sported a pretty good hook shot throughout his career (that has not disappeared) but it does not mean that the Rockets should make him a go to scorer on their team. 

and excuse the error on my part with the all time leading scorer in the league. I should have said Kareem.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Wow, Twinkie....*



alphaorange said:


> You really went overboard. NOBODY said he was an elite scorer. I said he could average 18/5/5. Not many first options average that low. I also think Lee can average 18 if he gets 8 shots/game plus his garbage buckets. Eighteen/5/5 makes you a really nice player, not a bright star. I think you may be fooled by how much of a team player he is. Him scoring 18 does not make the Pistons better. But then, neither would 'Melo scoring 25.


Correction, it was implied by Gotham. Read it for yourself: "Have you ever watched Prince play??? *Prince has some of the greatest post moves ever, he can always score with his hook shot*." The guys who have had some of the "greatest post moves ever" were all elite scorers as a result of it. 

You said he could average 18/5/5 but not him. I definately think the 5rpg and 5apg are not overexaggerations but I definately feel like his points are. What offensive skill has he really shown to put up those kinds of numbers? Even though that output his not the mark of a top tier scorer on a team, you'd still have to be able to create your own shot to get that. Prince up until this point has shown no really ability to get his own shot outside of shots created by his team. He does have a good jump shot but not that good to put up that many points a game. If he could have done that, he would have by now considering how the Pistons have been searching for points recently.

P.S., you sure him scoring 18 wouldn't be to the Pistons benefit? They have been looking for scorers so don't you think it would be convenient for that scoring to come from within, from one of the team's younger players?


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