# Top 14 prospects 2011 Draft (2/18/11)



## SheriffKilla

1. Jared Sullinger
2. Kyrie Irving
3. Derrick Wiliams
4. Terrence Jones
5. Enes Kanter
6. Kawhi Leonard
7. Donatas Motiejunas
8. Jonas Valanciunas
9. Marcus Morris
10. Jon Leuer
11. Jimmer Fredette
12. Jan Vesely
13. Markieff Morris
14. Perry Jones

As you see this is my list and not at all where i think these guys will actually get drafted. 
I give Sullinger the edge over Irving because of the injury even though I do think Irving is the better talent but a big injury like that has to hurt him (no pun)
I am pretty high on Jon Leuer as well as Jordan Taylor but dont think Taylor will enter this season. I dont think even Leuer himself expects to go in the top 10 but I really think the guy deserves it and see few reasons he isnt a top 10 prospect in this draft, outside of stereotypes.
Markieff Morris is another guy I like, even more than his brother at times but the perimeter skills Marcus has developed give him the edge.
Perry Jones Ive never been high on, and do think all that talent doesnt mean much since he just doesnt seem to have the killer instinct, Id take a less talented but a much mentally tougher guy like Sullinger or even Leuer, over someone like Jones who has Durant/Amare like talent but seemingly no desire and means to apply it in game situations.

So there you go my list, as always a bit off course from your average popular online mocks like DX and DotNet but I do have a solid track record overall, so I stand by my choices.


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## Nimreitz

Wow on Leuer. Huge Wisconsin fan and there's no way I'd take him that high. If he can't dominate at the college level I wouldn't want him in the lottery. Don't get me wrong, he's had some big nights, but he's not the kind of guy you just keep feeding every possession. For whatever reason he doesn't want it. Until a game against Illinois this year, his highest scoring conference game was his first conference game as a freshman where he lit up Michigan with 5/5 from 3s. He hasn't hit 25 in any other game. He's consistent, but can't dominate, and as a result I don't think he's more than a role player in the NBA. But maybe that's where we're heading in what people seem to be calling a weak draft.


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## zagsfan20

Yeah, I don't really see Leuer as a great prospect. I think Jimmer's a little high too. I'm starting to come around on Markieff Morris though.


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## bball2223

It's one hell of a weak draft when Sullinger is a top 3 pick and Terrence Jones is top 5. I'm still taking Irving with the #1 pick. Also Kemba Walker is definitely a top 10 prospect in this class.


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## SheriffKilla

Nimreitz said:


> Wow on Leuer. Huge Wisconsin fan and there's no way I'd take him that high. If he can't dominate at the college level I wouldn't want him in the lottery. Don't get me wrong, he's had some big nights, but he's not the kind of guy you just keep feeding every possession. For whatever reason he doesn't want it. Until a game against Illinois this year, his highest scoring conference game was his first conference game as a freshman where he lit up Michigan with 5/5 from 3s. He hasn't hit 25 in any other game. He's consistent, but can't dominate, and as a result I don't think he's more than a role player in the NBA. But maybe that's where we're heading in what people seem to be calling a weak draft.


Yeah basically Leuer isnt someone Id be drafting with hopes of building the team around him but I do believe he can make a Redick like impact (in his own position) which is good enough for top 10 in this draft. Ive always been a guy who will take the safer pick over the a riskier, potentially better choice and I usually say if a guy can play ball he can play, doesnt matter if he is a little slow or undersized or w/e. Of course both of those are to a certain extent but thats why I had Kevin Love over OJ Mayo for example but of course it goes both ways and I had Jerryd Bayless ahead of Russell Westbrook in that same draft as well.


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## HB

Jon Luer over John Henson and heck even Harrison Barnes? Are you serious?


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## zagsfan20

bball2223 said:


> It's one hell of a weak draft when Sullinger is a top 3 pick and Terrence Jones is top 5. I'm still taking Irving with the #1 pick. Also Kemba Walker is definitely a top 10 prospect in this class.


Kemba has come down to earth drastically and he's undersized. I can see him slipping on draft day.


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## Jonathan Watters

People forget that Kemba Walker was viewed as a pass first PG headed into this year. He's had to dramatically reshape his game given his team's needs. I think he ought to be a top 5 pick for sure.


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## HKF

UConn would be in the NIT if Kemba didn't have a player of the year type season.


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## zagsfan20

Jonathan Watters said:


> People forget that Kemba Walker was viewed as a pass first PG headed into this year. He's had to dramatically reshape his game given his team's needs. I think he ought to be a top 5 pick for sure.


His size and lack of a 3 point shot don't concern you?


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## Nimreitz

HB said:


> Jon Luer over John Henson and heck even Harrison Barnes? Are you serious?


At least spell the name right bro, he deserves that.


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## SheriffKilla

Yep, I missed Walker sorry about that. I would take Leuer over Barnes at this point, even though thats something that could look stupid in the future. And I dont think Henson will come out til next year, so he "doesnt count".


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## Jonathan Watters

zagsfan20 said:


> His size and lack of a 3 point shot don't concern you?


His size, no. And the guy is a great shooter from the midrange, 76% FT shooter, I see no reason he can't extend his range eventually. Certainly not a strength, but we aren't talking about Jason Kidd or Rajon Rondo here either.


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## HB

SheriffKilla said:


> Yep, I missed Walker sorry about that. I would take Leuer over Barnes at this point, even though thats something that could look stupid in the future. And I dont think Henson will come out til next year, so he "doesnt count".


It will look stupid. Upside buddy....upside.



> At least spell the name right bro, he deserves that.


My bad L-E-U-E-R


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## zagsfan20

Jonathan Watters said:


> His size, no. And the guy is a great shooter from the midrange, 76% FT shooter, I see no reason he can't extend his range eventually. Certainly not a strength, but we aren't talking about Jason Kidd or Rajon Rondo here either.


Kidd's made the 3rd most 3 pointers in NBA history. Size is always a concern with me, especially at the point in todays NBA.


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## Jonathan Watters

If you aren't able to associate Jason Kidd with the stereotypically poor shooting PG that teams don't have to defend on the perimeter, you have no recollection of the first 10 years of Jason Kidd's career.


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## HB

zagsfan20 said:


> Kidd's made the 3rd most 3 pointers in NBA history. Size is always a concern with me, especially at the point in todays NBA.


My main man Zagsfan, Jason was known as Ason Kidd for a few years. He had no J.


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## Rather Unique

clever HB, clever...


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## zagsfan20

HB said:


> My main man Zagsfan, Jason was known as Ason Kidd for a few years. He had no J.


I want to see a picture of what you look like. So geeky.


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## zagsfan20

Jonathan Watters said:


> If you aren't able to associate Jason Kidd with the stereotypically poor shooting PG that teams don't have to defend on the perimeter, you have no recollection of the first 10 years of Jason Kidd's career.


I don't think Walker is anywhere close to the kind of playmaker that guys like Kidd or Rondo are. Not close.

To me, Walker is a SG in an undersized PG's body.

I watched Kemba the other night struggle mightily with a tiny Peyton Siva. Imagine what his size disadvantage is going to do when he gets to the NBA. I think the projections of him as a late 1st round pick in a weak draft are about right.


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## Jonathan Watters

Obviously I didn't reference Kidd for his size, and obviously you didn't think I did considering you replied with Jason Kidd's career 3-point makes. Kidd was a horrible shooter until late in his career, and that's that.


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## HB

zagsfan20 said:


> I want to see a picture of what you look like. So geeky.


My pics are in that pictures thread


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## zagsfan20

Jonathan Watters said:


> Obviously I didn't reference Kidd for his size, and obviously you didn't think I did considering you replied with Jason Kidd's career 3-point makes. Kidd was a horrible shooter until late in his career, and that's that.


You said Kidd and Rondo can get away with not having a deep ball. My initial concern was about Walker's size. Not only does he not have deep jumper, but he's going to measure out under 6'0".


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## zagsfan20

HB said:


> My pics are in that pictures thread


What page?


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## Rather Unique

zagsfan20 said:


> You said Kidd and Rondo can get away with not having a deep ball. My initial concern was about Walker's size. Not only does he not have deep jumper,* but he's going to measure out under 6'0".*


How u know this for certain, zags?


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## bball2223

Even with the concerns about Walker he is a top 10 talent in this draft. He showed he could run the team and play the point the past two years, but he has had to tackle a much bigger role this season. Even in his "down" stretch he is still averaging something like 20 points and 6 assists per contest and for the most part he is going head to head against top level guards night in and night out. This is a pretty weak draft anyways, Kemba is a top 10 player in this draft.


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## Jonathan Watters

zagsfan20 said:


> You said Kidd and Rondo can get away with not having a deep ball. My initial concern was about Walker's size. Not only does he not have deep jumper, but he's going to measure out under 6'0".


I said nothing of the sort. You on the other hand, clearly mentioned his lack of a 3 point shot



zagsfan20 said:


> His size and *lack of a 3 point shot* don't concern you?


Here I address his size. 



me said:


> His size, no.





me said:


> And the guy is a great shooter from the midrange, 76% FT shooter, I see no reason he can't extend his range eventually. Certainly not a strength, but we aren't talking about Jason Kidd or Rajon Rondo here either.


Here I address his shooting. 

You responded with the point about Kidd and his number of made 3's, so you clearly knew I was talking about his shot, not his size. 

Why not just admit that you didn't know much about Jason Kidd in the 90's?


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## zagsfan20

Jonathan Watters said:


> I said nothing of the sort. You on the other hand, clearly mentioned his lack of a 3 point shot
> 
> 
> 
> Here I address his size.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here I address his shooting.
> 
> You responded with the point about Kidd and his number of made 3's, so you clearly knew I was talking about his shot, not his size.
> 
> Why not just admit that you didn't know much about Jason Kidd in the 90's?


All you're going to say about his size is, no? Its a legit concern. 

I knew about Kidd in the 90's, he was a below average 3 point shooter really until he got to Dallas. But, its never held him back from chucking them up. Clearly he's got better at the 3 ball, but thats definitely the exception, not the rule. If a player struggles consistently at a college 3, the likelihood that he drains the pro 3 at a high clip isn't very high.

Is Walker a dynamic scorer at the college level? Sure. He has a lot of traits that don't translate over to the pro game though. Thats why he's not going near top 5, even in this weak draft. You watch the Louisville game, he was locked up by tiny Peyton Siva.

But, you can continue to make this about Jason Kidd. Which wasn't really what my primary argument was about.


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## zagsfan20

Rather Unique said:


> How u know this for certain, zags?


I don't know it for certain. But, he's listed at most places 6'0" to the media. Those listings are almost always generous.

I don't have any faith in an under 6'0" PG with a scorers mentality. He's also a bean pole.


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## Jonathan Watters

zagsfan20 said:


> All you're going to say about his size is, no? Its a legit concern.
> 
> I knew about Kidd in the 90's, he was a below average 3 point shooter really until he got to Dallas. But, its never held him back from chucking them up. Clearly he's got better at the 3 ball, but thats definitely the exception, not the rule. If a player struggles consistently at a college 3, the likelihood that he drains the pro 3 at a high clip isn't very high.


If you knew about Jason Kidd in the 90's, you knew that he was simply a horrible shooter. Form was terrible, and not just from 3. Kemba Walker is a fantastic midrange shooter, and has improved substantially from the perimeter. He's not the next Jason Kidd when it comes to shooting. 



> Is Walker a dynamic scorer at the college level? Sure. He has a lot of traits that don't translate over to the pro game though. Thats why he's not going near top 5, even in this weak draft. You watch the Louisville game, he was locked up by tiny Peyton Siva.


Peyton Siva is a fantastic defender and would be an above average NBA athlete as well. At any rate, you should pretty much forget about whatever you saw in that game, because Walker hasn't gotten a fair 1 on 1 matchup all year. Teams can zone, help with multiple defenders, whatever it takes to slow him down. There isn't a player in college basketball that teams work harder to stop - not just because he is good, but because he is his team's only real option. 

Where he will get a fair one on one matchup is the NBA - the extra space and reduced attention are going to make Walker look like a completely different player. 

What will translate for Walker is his explosiveness and end to end speed, which is elite on any level. Guy is going to be a starting PG in the NBA...if he continues to improve his shot, he'll be an all-star.


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## zagsfan20

Jonathan Watters said:


> If you knew about Jason Kidd in the 90's, you knew that he was simply a horrible shooter. Form was terrible, and not just from 3. Kemba Walker is a fantastic midrange shooter, and has improved substantially from the perimeter. He's not the next Jason Kidd when it comes to shooting.
> 
> 
> 
> Peyton Siva is a fantastic defender and would be an above average NBA athlete as well. At any rate, you should pretty much forget about whatever you saw in that game, because Walker hasn't gotten a fair 1 on 1 matchup all year. Teams can zone, help with multiple defenders, whatever it takes to slow him down. There isn't a player in college basketball that teams work harder to stop - not just because he is good, but because he is his team's only real option.
> 
> Where he will get a fair one on one matchup is the NBA - the extra space and reduced attention are going to make Walker look like a completely different player.
> 
> What will translate for Walker is his explosiveness and end to end speed, which is elite on any level. Guy is going to be a starting PG in the NBA...if he continues to improve his shot, he'll be an all-star.


I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about Walker. I'm just not thrilled that his offense will translate. He won't be able to get the space that he does for shots at the college level when he gets to the league, because perimeter defense at that level is so much more quick.

And yes, Siva is a pesky collegiate defender. But realistically he's a 5'9" if that (I know, I've stood by next to him).


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## HB

I am watching Harrison Barnes take over this NCstate game, and I am thinking to myself, how the heck is Sheriffkilla going to justify leaving this kid off his list? He's definitely lottery talent.


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## Jonathan Watters

zagsfan20 said:


> I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about Walker. I'm just not thrilled that his offense will translate. He won't be able to get the space that he does for shots at the college level when he gets to the league, because perimeter defense at that level is so much more quick.


People used the same arguments about Derrick Rose. Said Brook Lopez and Roy Hibbert wouldn't amount to anything because defenders will be bigger and stronger. Said Ty Lawson wouldn't be able to get to the basket because everybody is quick in the NBA.

Well, guess what. You get more space to operate in the NBA, not less. Quick players get quicker, not slower. Players with elite size get bigger, because an individual size advantage is much easier to exploit on an NBA court. 

Quick players that are single-covered on a larger court instead of triple covered on a smaller court get A LOT quicker. 

This is one of the most basic facts about the college-NBA transition that you need to just accept.


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## Jonathan Watters

zagsfan20 said:


> I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about Walker. I'm just not thrilled that his offense will translate. He won't be able to get the space that he does for shots at the college level when he gets to the league, because perimeter defense at that level is so much more quick.


People used the same arguments about Derrick Rose. Said Brook Lopez and Roy Hibbert wouldn't amount to anything because defenders will be bigger and stronger. Said Ty Lawson wouldn't be able to get to the basket because everybody is quick in the NBA.

Well, guess what. You get more space to operate in the NBA, not less. Quick players get quicker, not slower. Players with elite size get bigger, because an individual size advantage is much easier to exploit on an NBA court. 

Quick players that are single-covered on a larger court instead of triple covered on a smaller court get A LOT quicker. 

This is one of the most basic facts about the college-NBA transition that you need to just accept.


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## E.H. Munro

HB said:


> I am watching Harrison Barnes take over this NCstate game, and I am thinking to myself, how the heck is Sheriffkilla going to justify leaving this kid off his list? He's definitely lottery talent.


People need to keep talking him down. I want to see him plunge low enough that Boston can grab him, damnit! :bsmile:


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## Nimreitz

HB said:


> I am watching Harrison Barnes take over this NCstate game, and I am thinking to myself, how the heck is Sheriffkilla going to justify leaving this kid off his list? He's definitely lottery talent.


NC State again HB? How about that ugly BC game?


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## Rather Unique

Nimreitz said:


> *NC State again HB?* How about that ugly BC game?


:laugh:

Someone tell the man that NC State's D blows..

And 16/8 is nice but 35% shooting..as CoolPohle says, Yikes!


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## HB

He was 0/6 in the first half, 6/11 in the second half. Most of his points came in crunch. Yes NC state again, that loss would have looked bad on our resume. Like I said, I like the way he took over in the second. He might not be the number 1 pick, but you'll be hard pressed to find 9 guys in this draft more talented than he is.


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## SheriffKilla

Im still not sold on Barnes and Perry Jones. Im sorry but I will always be a guy that wants to see somebody who can contribute at least somewhat right away. Barnes and Jones are only above average players among BCS conferences. In the NBA theyd have a PER of 10 next year. 
Leuer can be like a Ryan Anderson type, IMO. 
Im probably going to look bad on him though, because he is going to go in the 2nd round somewhere and never get playing time and than waived. He should have a great Euro career though.

I do think Sullinger/Irving/D.Williams/T.Jones are the best prospects in this class, in that order approximatly. Id take Kanter 5th, and than probably the Morris twins are next. Than Walker, Lithuanians, Vesely, Leonard, Fredette depending on need.

I will say that Texas and UCLA have had a pretty good history of NBA players recently, so Jordan Hamilton and Tyler Honeycutt could have an impact but Im not a huge fan of either guy.

Besides Leuer, I like Brad Wanamaker as a sleeper as well in the 2nd round. And a really deep sleeper is Jordan Campbell from Belmont. The guy can shoot as well as anyone in the country outside maybe Diebler and he is actually quick and athletic, relatively... I think he will end up like a Gary Neal sort of player, and manage to stick around somewhere.


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## SheriffKilla

Actually Im not a big fan of anyone on this draft. Not as far as talent (which is pretty weak as well) but just as a fan of the sport. The only guys I actually root for is Kawhi Leonard and Jonas Valanciunas.
Quite different from last years draft, when I was a fan of like every other player. Cousins, Monroe, Wes Johnson, Cole Aldrich among others are guys I really like. Thats as a fan not as a talent evaluator. Monroe is having a pretty nice season though.


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## bball2223

Like I said this is a real weak draft. Kyrie Irving is still the best player in the class, when healthy, but I don't know if I would consider him a franchise talent. I also like Jordan Hamilton and Kemba Walker's potential on the next level. This is going to be a draft full of role players, not many (if any) franchise type talents this year.


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## croco

On the flip side, maybe some of the highly touted freshmen decide to stay in college for at least one more season when they might not even be Top 10 picks at this point. This is a situation where I think it could actually pay off for some to not be one and done.


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## bball2223

Let's hope so. I really cringe at the thought of guys like Harrison Barnes, Brandon Knight and CJ Leslie even considering entering the draft this year. I hope those guys stay in school for their own good.


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## HB

What did Kyrie Irving do when healthy to be considered the best player in the draft? Sullinger is the best player in this class, though that's not saying much. LOL at the one guy saying TJ Jones will be more of an impact player than Barnes. That guy needs to stay in school. Barnes isn't coming out though and in 2-3 years time he will be deadly.


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## bball2223

HB said:


> What did Kyrie Irving do when healthy to be considered the best player in the draft?


:hano:


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## HB

Instead of putting up a gif. how about answering how Irving is a better player than Sullinger?


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## Nimreitz

SheriffKilla said:


> Quite different from last years draft, when I was a fan of like every other player. Cousins, Monroe, Wes Johnson, Cole Aldrich among others are guys I really like. Thats as a fan not as a talent evaluator. Monroe is having a pretty nice season though.


Completely agree. There's no one like Cousins or Wall that I'm just drooling over at the next level and I get excited to see play.


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## Rather Unique

HB said:


> *What did Kyrie Irving do when healthy to be considered the best player in the draft?* Sullinger is the best player in this class, though that's not saying much. LOL at the one guy saying TJ Jones will be more of an impact player than Barnes. That guy needs to stay in school. Barnes isn't coming out though and in 2-3 years time he will be deadly.


Did you see the guy play at all HB? I mean nobody could stay in front of the guy...and putting up 17/5/4 on 53% from the floor and 45% from deep is pretty damn good don't ya think?


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## HB

Yes, maybe I stretched the initial statement a bit with what was he doing before going down, he was playing very well with that said, Sullinger is at 17.3ppg, 9.7rpg, 55% from the floor.


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## zagsfan20

Irving is the best college point since Chris Paul. Dynamic at nearly every facet of the game.


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## HB

I do know this though, and its not a knock on Irving, the best college passer in the game is Kendall Marshall. No one on the college level has better court vision.


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## Jonathan Watters

zagsfan20 said:


> Irving is the best college point since Chris Paul. Dynamic at nearly every facet of the game.


Chris Paul isn't even the best college point guard since Chris Paul.


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## zagsfan20

Chris Paul was probably the most dynamic PG I've ever seen play in college.


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## Jonathan Watters

Paul was a great college PG, but he's a much better NBA PG. He is a different player in terms of strength and explosiveness. He wasn't a dominant scorer in college (only shot 44% on 2PA's),was relatively turnover prone, and defense was little more than an afterthought. 

Junior year Ty Lawson was on a different level statistically, and I think he was a better college PG that season. 

Remember, Paul wasn't a lock to be the best PG in the NBA when he was drafted. He went 4th, and very few people were critical of the 4 (Portland traded their pick, and the Utah passed) teams that passed on him on draft night.


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## Rather Unique

Jonathan Watters said:


> Paul was a great college PG, but he's a much better NBA PG. He is a different player in terms of strength and explosiveness. He wasn't a dominant scorer in college (only shot 44% on 2PA's),was relatively turnover prone, and defense was little more than an afterthought.
> 
> Junior year Ty Lawson was on a different level statistically, and I think he was a better college PG that season.
> 
> Remember, Paul wasn't a lock to be the best PG in the NBA when he was drafted. *He went 4th, and very few people were critical of the 4 (Portland traded their pick, and the Utah passed) teams that passed on him on draft night.*


I don't know about that, can't recall the media's take on it but i sure as hell was critical of the Hawks for taking Marvin Williams over him. Not only because i thought Marvin was overrated as all hell and he was gettin way too much love but they also needed a PG at the time.


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## Jonathan Watters

Well, everybody comes out of the woodwork after the fact. Everybody claims they liked Durant better than Oden as well, but nobody was willing to admit it before the draft. It is funny how that works...

Williams was identified very early in the process as the likely #2 pick in the draft, and there wasn't a major backlash against Altanta for picking him. That is the way it happened.


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## HB

TBH there was and I recall Atlanta getting blasted on the draft show by ESPN analysts for taking a small forward over a point guard. Point guard was even more of a glaring hole for them back then.


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## bball2223

This week should erase any doubt Kemba Walker is a top 3-5 player in this class. I mean the guy is unguardable one on one, he is clutch, he is tough, he can defend, he can shoot fairly decently and he can run a team. His "inefficiency" is also overrated around here. He actually is fairly efficient for his usage rate, playing against the guards he does night in and night out in the Big East. He needs to continue to improve his jumper, but he is a big-time player. I don't think it's a stretch to say he could be the best NBA player from this draft class.


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## ATLien

HB said:


> TBH there was and I recall Atlanta getting blasted on the draft show by ESPN analysts for taking a small forward over a point guard. Point guard was even more of a glaring hole for them back then.


ESPN liked Marvin Williams a lot on their draft show. Think he was even rated higher than Paul on their overall big board. Even respectable posters on this site who are still somehow allowed to give posts on the draft forum liked him a lot at the time.


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## Rather Unique

Jonathan Watters said:


> *Well, everybody comes out of the woodwork after the fact. Everybody claims they liked Durant better than Oden as well, but nobody was willing to admit it before the draft. It is funny how that works...*
> 
> Williams was identified very early in the process as the likely #2 pick in the draft, and there wasn't a major backlash against Altanta for picking him. That is the way it happened.


So if you thought they made the wrong pick at the time you're coming out of the woodwork? FOH

I'll take yours and ATLien's word about the media backlash because like i said, i can't recall.


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## E.H. Munro

Jonathan Watters said:


> Well, everybody comes out of the woodwork after the fact. Everybody claims they liked Durant better than Oden as well, but nobody was willing to admit it before the draft. It is funny how that works...
> 
> Williams was identified very early in the process as the likely #2 pick in the draft, and there wasn't a major backlash against Altanta for picking him. That is the way it happened.


Actually I was pretty vocal about Atnalta's mistake. I even made a joke about Billy Knight being drunk and accidentally handing off the wrong Williams card. I liked Marvin, but not over Paul & Deron. I most certainly wasn't the only one.


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## Nimreitz

ATLien said:


> ESPN liked Marvin Williams a lot on their draft show. Think he was even rated higher than Paul on their overall big board. Even respectable posters on this site who are still somehow allowed to give posts on the draft forum liked him a lot at the time.


I thought the Bucks should have taken him #1. To be fair, it's pretty hard for me sitting on my sofa eating flaming cheetoes to judge the heart of a player, particularly when he's his team's 6th man. It's all attitude with Marvin because his skill set and potential are immense. We also had... I believe TJ Ford at the time who was pretty good before his back gave out.


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## Jonathan Watters

E.H. Munro said:


> Actually I was pretty vocal about Atnalta's mistake. I even made a joke about Billy Knight being drunk and accidentally handing off the wrong Williams card. I liked Marvin, but not over Paul & Deron. *I most certainly wasn't the only one.*


Really? You weren't the only one? I never would have guessed...

I definitely thought Chris Paul was the best player in the draft and thought Atl's refusal to take a PG was a head scratcher, but I also thought Marvin Williams had a lot more upside than he ended up having. I didn't have a major complaint with the pick at the time, because I liked Williams. I thought CP3 was going to be an elite PG, but I also thought Williams would develop into an elite combo forward. And I think for most people, being honest is admitting this was their line of thought. 

Anybody who claims they thought Chris Paul would develop into the most statistically dominant point guard in the history of the NBA is definitely "coming out of the woodwork"...

He was a great player in college, but the Chris Paul we think of today is a lot different than the Chris Paul we saw at Wake.


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## E.H. Munro

My problem with Marvin, and similar to my problem with Jeff Green, is that both reminded me too much of Antoine Walker for my comfort (in the sense that neither excelled at any particular facet of the game and were more jack of all trade forwards). There was nothing wrong with them that I felt they would be prevented from being effective NBA players, I just didn't see an all-NBA player in either guy.


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## HB

Haha Marc Spears thinks Barnes should be the number one pick. I feel justified for all the **** talking some people were saying about dude.


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## MemphisX

Marc Spears' word makes you feel justified?

I still wouldn't take him over Sullinger or Irving for sure. I like his teammate more as a pro. This draft is crapola anyway and I would not want to pick anyone in it.


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## HB

Not just Marc, you can check the Barnes thread.


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## BlakeJesus

I was about ready to shoot somebody when the Hawks didn't draft a PG. I preferred Deron for them at the time, but Chris Paul would definitely have been alright by me. I said Marvin would be a bust before the draft even started, kid never impressed me at UNC.


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## BlakeJesus

But with that being said, I do like Harrison Barnes. I see the Marvin Williams comparisons, but he's 100% different in one very important way. The kid loves the big moments, at the very least, he's not afraid of them. Marvin shrinks all the time, it's wildly frustrating.


----------



## SheriffKilla

I dont remember who it was because I didnt go on the board as often back in the day but I do remember there was a pretty big Marvin Williams thread and a lot of people were giving him a lot of praise.


----------



## BlakeJesus

Perry Jones is definitely not the 14th best player in this weak draft, though his NBA success will be completely dependent on where he gets drafted. If he gets a coach that tries to turn him into a post player, he's absolutely screwed. If he lands a team that lets him play some off guard and small forward, he'll be alright. The thing that has held him back the most in college is not having a legitimate PG next to him. Look at the transformation Harrison Barnes went through once he finally got a PG to play with, it makes a world of difference at the college level.

Kemba Walker will be a good NBA player, how can't you root for a kid like that? Plus, he's made great strides in his game from year to year. Not sure why he wouldn't continue to improve, especially with better players around him. At the very least, he's proven he can be a leader. That's a surefire NBA quality right there.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Yeah, Jones is going much higher just due to the fact that he has more upside than most of the guys in this pool. Teams picking 4-10 are probably going to roll the dice this year because the alternatives are pretty bad. I don't even really see any Shane Battier types (as in guys that are obvious starter-level NBA players) that teams can pick as an alternative.


----------



## HB

Perry and Terry will be one and two. Barnes, Sullinger and Irving are leaning on staying (Yes, yes we've heard that but that's the word on the street so far.)


----------



## Nimreitz

Everyone is gonna stay. Sean May was staying, Greg Oden was staying, blah blah blah.


----------



## HB

Tyler stayed. So did Kemba.


----------



## E.H. Munro

HB said:


> Perry and Terry will be one and two. Barnes, Sullinger and Irving are leaning on staying (Yes, yes we've heard that but that's the word on the street so far.)


If that's the truth, I'd be looking to give my lottery pick away because I don't see Terry Jones as an NBA starter. And if he really were the second best player, then no pick outside #1 is worth its weight in Basel's dirty jockey shorts.


----------



## HB

Was just telling someone that, you could see Perry, Terry and maybe Kemba as the top 3 picks. Will be hilarious if that happens. Tristan Thompson also said he is not coming out. Draft looks weak as heck.


----------



## E.H. Munro

I couldn't see drafting Terry Jones if I'm rebuilding a team. At that point I'd be looking to trade for a vet because Jones is a sixth man in my view.


----------



## croco

HB said:


> Tyler stayed. So did Kemba.


They weren't lottery picks at the time. Honestly, I don't care what anyone says in March, it's easy to state you will stay in school right now. Not nearly as easy when they realize they are that close to realizing their dream and they won't play another game in college for half a year.


----------



## HB

Kyle Singler was projected to go in the lottery, he came back....Blake after his freshman was projected in the lottery he came back. Actually when you think about it, Blake and Tyler coming back boosted their draft stock. It happens, but yes it is March and still very early.


----------



## Nimreitz

Bro, Singler was never a lottery pick, and if he ever was it was after his Freshman year. Blake might be the only one you have, but dude wasn't exactly playing for a great team. He had zero hype and wasn't touted by Chad Ford or DE. His OK team lost by 30 points to the Louisville team of Padgett and Palacios.


----------



## croco

If I remember correctly, Singler was looked at as a Top 10 pick during his freshman season and still on the cusp of a lottery pick after his sophomore year.


----------



## Drewbs

^Yep. He was a top 5 player in his high school class, was 6'8 with good ball handling, decent athleticism, and a nice jump shot. He should've left when his stock was high, and every year he came back I had Duke fans telling me that he was going to win NPOY and he has underwhelmed every year except last year where he was tournament MVP. But now, he's going to drop to the 2nd round this year. Based on his performances this year, he is going to have a ton of trouble against NBA 3s.

Also, Harrison Barnes doesn't really have much in common with Marvin Williams. I don't get the comparison except they're both long, 6'8 and athletic. Harrison has a much more advanced game than Marvin ever did and he is more of a 2-3 than a 3-4 like Marvin was. Barnes has much more of a perimeter game and has shown much more ability than Marvin to create his own shot.


----------



## E.H. Munro

croco said:


> If I remember correctly, Singler was looked at as a Top 10 pick during his freshman season and still on the cusp of a lottery pick after his sophomore year.


I'm just not convinced that he ever fooled NBA scouts, despite what DE, Rivals, et al thought of him. Maybe after his freshman year he could have cracked the top 15, but only because he would have been still something of a blank slate.


----------



## HKF

Barnes doesn't really handle all that well. He just reminds me of Luol Deng. He's nothing special.


----------



## HB

Luol Deng is an integral player on the best team in the East. How is that a bad thing? So what if he's not a special player, are there any in this draft?


----------



## E.H. Munro

HKF said:


> Barnes doesn't really handle all that well. He just reminds me of Luol Deng. He's nothing special.


Sadly this doesn't mean that he isn't the best player in this pool. I think that Deng is a good comp, but I do think that Barnes will be a more productive offensive player.


----------



## Drewbs

HKF said:


> Barnes doesn't really handle all that well. He just reminds me of Luol Deng. He's nothing special.


He can handle better than Marvin though. And his handling and ball security has improved throughout the season.

Harrison Barnes is also better than Luol Deng was his first year. He is more athletic, quicker, a better shooter, and is much better running the floor.

And lets not act like Luol Deng is chopped liver either. He was a stud his one year in college and has been a solid starter in the league averaging pretty good numbers on a very good Bulls team.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

What to make of Derrick Williams after yesterday? 

He looked terrible against Texas, Tristan Thompson's length and athleticism as a weak side shot blocker really bothered him. 

Then he comes out and has the type of transcendent performance that will be remember for decades. He absolutely dominated Duke around the basket with his explosiveness and strength, and that is what I wanted to see out of him. The ridiculous 3-point shooting was just a bonus. 

Is Duke's frontcourt really that pathetic, or is Derrick Williams the real deal? 

It will be very interesting to see how he does against UConn's physical/sizeable/athletic frontline...


----------



## HB

He coasts, only seems interested in offense. Terrific talent though, at least amongst this crop of players.


----------



## green machine

Jonathan Watters said:


> What to make of Derrick Williams after yesterday?
> 
> He looked terrible against Texas, Tristan Thompson's length and athleticism as a weak side shot blocker really bothered him.
> 
> Then he comes out and has the type of transcendent performance that will be remember for decades. He absolutely dominated Duke around the basket with his explosiveness and strength, and that is what I wanted to see out of him. The ridiculous 3-point shooting was just a bonus.
> 
> Is Duke's frontcourt really that pathetic, or is Derrick Williams the real deal?
> 
> It will be very interesting to see how he does against UConn's physical/sizeable/athletic frontline...


Williams plays center for Arizona, a position he won't come close to playing in the NBA. As a SF/PF he has the requisite skill set. He'll be fine.



HB said:


> He coasts, only seems interested in offense. Terrific talent though, at least amongst this crop of players.


He doesn't coast but he's not a great defender. He's 19 and he works hard. The fact that he's an excellent rebounder shows he actually tries.

No matter, watch him give Arizona one more year.


----------



## bball2223

Brandon Knight needs to be on that top 14 now. Don't know how you can leave him off after his performance in this tournament.


----------



## HB

Why would Williams come back though?


----------



## croco

HB said:


> Why would Williams come back though?


His stock will certainly never be higher.


----------



## Porn Player

Interesting question from a Raptors fan. Where would Bargnani fit in this draft? He was taken 1st in one of the weakest drafts in recent history. Would he command a Top 5 right now? 

I'm talking the version that plays in the NBA right now. Offensive force, defensive hole. I only ask because he's supposedly on the block and moving him for a prospect + pick seems likely, and I'd like to gauge his value.


----------



## Drewbs

What are y'all's thoughts on Tyler Zeller in this draft?


----------



## HB

Mid 20s pick. Bench player. More skilled than most of the low post players in this draft though.


----------



## croco

Is he even going pro yet?


----------



## HB

Ya know I keep forgetting he is just a junior. Hallelujah! How can UNC not be 1 with Mcadoo coming aboard too?


----------



## Pacers Fan

Porn Player said:


> Interesting question from a Raptors fan. Where would Bargnani fit in this draft? He was taken 1st in one of the weakest drafts in recent history. Would he command a Top 5 right now?
> 
> I'm talking the version that plays in the NBA right now. Offensive force, defensive hole. I only ask because he's supposedly on the block and moving him for a prospect + pick seems likely, and I'd like to gauge his value.


Guys I would take over Bargs out of this year's draft:

Derrick Williams
Harrison Barnes
Kyrie Irving
Brandon Knight
Kemba Walker

Kanter, Vesely, Motiejunas, and Valanciunas I need to watch to determine.

So I would definitely trade a lottery pick for Bargnani, and if I'm a team in the top 5 needing a Forward and Williams/Barnes are gone, I'd even consider that. Besides Williams and Perry Jones, I don't think anyone in this draft has the potential to be more than multi-time all-stars.

And I would absolute not touch Tyler Zeller in the first round.


----------



## HB

Pacers Fan said:


> Guys I would take over Bargs out of this year's draft:
> 
> *Derrick Williams
> Harrison Barnes
> Kyrie Irving
> Brandon Knight
> Kemba Walker*
> 
> Kanter, Vesely, Motiejunas, and Valanciunas I need to watch to determine.
> 
> So I would definitely trade a lottery pick for Bargnani, and if I'm a team in the top 5 needing a Forward and Williams/Barnes are gone, I'd even consider that. Besides Williams and Perry Jones, I don't think anyone in this draft has the potential to be more than multi-time all-stars.
> 
> *And I would absolute not touch Tyler Zeller in the first round.*


Really? On both bold quotes. Bargs is a 20ppg type scorer, what makes you think any of those guys will do that in the league?

As for Zeller, have you seen this year's draft list?


----------



## croco

Bargnani is a role player who is forced to take a lot of shots because he is on a bad team. There is a reason why Toronto is considering a trade and as mediocre as this class is, I wouldn't trade a lottery pick for a volume scorer who doesn't offer much else.


----------



## HB

I think his upside is more than a role player though. He could be a solid 2nd or 3rd option. He's 7 foot, shoots very well and is actually quite nimble on his feet. That's a match-up nightmare.


----------



## croco

This is his fifth season in the league, I don't think Bargnani will amount to more than he currently is - which is a role player. He wouldn't even start on most playoff caliber teams and certainly not average double digit points.


----------



## HB

HE wouldn't? Barganini wouldn't start for the Hawks, Pacers, Magic, Heat? Those are just the teams that come to mind. The Pacers might have to get creative, maybe move him to the four.


----------



## Drewbs

HB said:


> Ya know I keep forgetting he is just a junior. Hallelujah! How can UNC not be 1 with Mcadoo coming aboard too?


We may not be 1 because not everyone may be coming back... otherwise we add 2 things that we really need, post depth and 3 pt shooting.


----------



## bball2223

The thing with Zeller is he runs the floor extremely well, but he really doesn't have much on offense other than that turnaround hook shot. He is a terrific fit for UNC's system, but I don't see him amounting to much in the NBA.


----------



## Pacers Fan

HB said:


> Really? On both bold quotes. Bargs is a 20ppg type scorer, what makes you think any of those guys will do that in the league?
> 
> As for Zeller, have you seen this year's draft list?


Knight, Walker, and Irving are all going to be starter-quality PG's for most of their careers. They can all score, see the floor well, and should be able to learn to defend adequately. With how important the PG position is to this NBA, these three will all be very valuable players. I can't say if any of them will ever average more than 15/8 with solid defense, but if I don't have a glaring need for a face-up PF who doesn't rebound or defend, I'm going with a surefire PG.

As for Barnes, I don't know if he'll ever average more than 18-20 ppg, but I do see defensive potential in him, something I don't see in Bargnani. I'll take that kind of production out of my 2nd option.

And Derrick Williams, well, he has some bust potential, but he's probably also the most likely to become a superstar. He's obviously worth the risk, and he rebounds.

Pretty much, the things that these guys have on Bargnani are some combination of positional advantage, defense, and rebounding. It says a lot about this draft that only five guys are here that I'd definitely take over Bargnani, and that list dwindles down to 2 (plus other foreigners) if I'm New Jersey, Washington, Minnesota, or Milwaukee.

With Zeller, I just don't see a pro basketball player in him. I see a guy who's worked his ass off to be successful at the collegiate level, but won't be able to stick with guys in the NBA. He's far too weak, doesn't rebound well enough, and his hook shot is hardly a go-to move in the NBA. That's not even to mention that he won't be able to guard anyone without some significant weight gain. Boy can take a charge, though. He has that. I could see him sticking around if he bulks up like McRoberts did, but I wouldn't give him guaranteed money.


----------



## HB

bball2223 said:


> The thing with Zeller is he runs the floor extremely well, but he really doesn't have much on offense other than that turnaround hook shot. He is a terrific fit for UNC's system, but I don't see him amounting to much in the NBA.


Zeller interestingly enough reminds me of Brook Lopez, cept Brook weighs about 30 pounds more. Brook only had those hook shots in college, but Zeller has shown the ability to hit that jumper from the perimeter. The Morris twins are supposed to be picked in the first round, I really dont see how they are that much better than Zeller.

Fazekas and Schenscher played a couple of seasons in the NBA. Kosta Koufos and BJ Mullens are still in the league. A team will pick him towards the later stages of the draft, not like there's that much quality there. BTW Zeller averaged 7.2rpg this year, he's not exactly a mediocre rebounder.


----------



## SheriffKilla

Well the argument isn't if Zeller is going to make a team but whether he is worth a 1st round pick. At this point I would probably say he is a high 2nd round pick this year but could play himself into a 1st rounder if he stays for his Senior year. Which he probably will.

I like Bargnani, and I don't agree with croco, his scoring isn't a problem the Raptors are a bad team but it's because of their terrible defense not offense. I would probably take Bargnani 2nd to Kyrie in this year's draft even though he can't do much besides score/shoot, he has at least proven himself valuable in that area in the NBA.


----------



## Drewbs

I ask because Zeller's stock is at the highest it's ever been right now. But I've watched this guy play every game this season, I really think that the way his season has progressed that he can get even better. First off, he got huge this year compared to the last 2 years. He worked hard this off season to put on muscle and it really shows. I think if he can put on another solid 15 lbs, he will be in good shape for the NBA. Also, he is very coachable and works hard on his weaknesses. His rebounding, defense, and awareness were extremely suspect at the beginning of the season. He didn't go up strong to finish in the paint, he had trouble handling passes, he dropped a ton of rebounds, and just looked to have bad hands. But as the season was rounding out, he had none of those problems. Was much improved as far as boxing out goes, finally goes up and dunks with authority, uses his size and athleticism and even catches those bullets that Marshall throws him out of no-where and shows great awareness on offense. The guy is just a hard worker and very coachable.


----------



## SheriffKilla

Drewbs said:


> I ask because Zeller's stock is at the highest it's ever been right now. But I've watched this guy play every game this season, I really think that the way his season has progressed that he can get even better. First off, he got huge this year compared to the last 2 years. He worked hard this off season to put on muscle and it really shows. I think if he can put on another solid 15 lbs, he will be in good shape for the NBA. Also, he is very coachable and works hard on his weaknesses. His rebounding, defense, and awareness were extremely suspect at the beginning of the season. He didn't go up strong to finish in the paint, he had trouble handling passes, he dropped a ton of rebounds, and just looked to have bad hands. But as the season was rounding out, he had none of those problems. Was much improved as far as boxing out goes, finally goes up and dunks with authority, uses his size and athleticism and even catches those bullets that Marshall throws him out of no-where and shows great awareness on offense. The guy is just a hard worker and very coachable.


You know I like Zeller too but that's why I try to put him down because my fan glasses may cloud my judgement of his NBA future. I do think he can be a little bit of a sleeper early in the 2nd. Be a useful back up for a decade.
2 guys I really like right now (after watching some footage I taped earlier in the season) are Alec Burks and Jordan Hamilton. Will be interesting how they do in the combine. I don't put THAT MUCH into that stuff, but if they have good combine numbers.... wingspans, heights, verticals, speed times etc I think they will be very good players in this draft, they really have NBA scoring SG/SF games. Another guy I really like as a fan is Kawhi Leonard but I question his perimeter skills and whether they are good enough to be effective in the NBA on the offensive end. Than again Gerald Wallace has been pretty good, so maybe Leonard can get by.


----------



## Porn Player

Appreciate you guys talking it over. I'm thinking something with the Bucks might happen and get us the 9th pick. I hope we take Knight with it too. 

For our pick, Barnes is my guy since Sullinger has decided to stay put. 

If we could snag a FA centre the Raptors could become a really good team, and quickly.


----------



## zagsfan20

Alec Burks is my favorite prospect in this draft. Kid is going to be the real deal. Kinda has a Paul Pierce feel to his game.


----------



## Porn Player

^ I have him pretty high on my board, kids got a great NBA body (a little weak up top, but that will come). Ball handles to boot with jumps to get out of the gym. 

He's just a kid though, he's not going to step in and contend for ROY. He needs to join a team that is established and can let him slowly work on his allround game. 

Very possible he becomes the star of this draft.


----------



## E.H. Munro

zagsfan20 said:


> Alec Burks is my favorite prospect in this draft. Kid is going to be the real deal. Kinda has a Paul Pierce feel to his game.


This is one of the rare instances where I agree with you.


----------



## HB

Getting nervous, Barnes hasn't denied coming out. This guy might be a goner.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Why would he stay? He's a top 5 pick this year, and he likely won't be again.


----------



## bball2223

He could be top 5 again next year, especially if he continues to improve like he did over the course of this past season. I hope he stays, but I'm not too optimistic about Barnes or Henson returning. I think both could use another year (especially Henson), but both are lottery talents so its hard to tell a kid no if he is going to go in the lottery.


----------



## croco

bball2223 said:


> He could be top 5 again next year, especially if he continues to improve like he did over the course of this past season. I hope he stays, but I'm not too optimistic about Barnes or Henson returning. I think both could use another year (especially Henson), but both are lottery talents so its hard to tell a kid no if he is going to go in the lottery.


I agree... I mean let's cut the guy some slack, he is 18 years old. Barnes has shown enough improvement throughout and especially towards the end of the season to assume that he is far from a finished product. Even though it's highly unlikely he will ever live up to superstardom, he is still a very intriguing prospect.


----------



## E.H. Munro

bball2223 said:


> He could be top 5 again next year, especially if he continues to improve like he did over the course of this past season. I hope he stays, but I'm not too optimistic about Barnes or Henson returning. I think both could use another year (especially Henson), but both are lottery talents so its hard to tell a kid no if he is going to go in the lottery.


Next year's pool is going to be a lot stronger. I just can't see someone in need of wing scoring choosing Barnes over Gilchrist or Baby Doc.


----------



## HB

Heh not if he leads UNC to a title.


----------



## Pacers Fan

HB said:


> Heh not if he leads UNC to a title.


If Harrison Barnes led a team of me, you, E.H., and R-Star (yes, only four players) to the national title, he still wouldn't go above Austin Rivers.


----------



## HB

The same Austin Rivers some thought Brandon Knight was on par with?


----------



## Damian Necronamous

Barnes, Henson, Kemba, Brandon Knight and Terrence Jones will all be in the draft. Next year's class is much stronger, and there's a chance they won't go this high again.

Irving is the only guy I actually could see staying. He'd be a Top 3 pick again next year, and it seems to me like he wants to experience more college ball.

Who ever gets Derrick Williams is getting a future NBA star. I'm also a big fan of Kemba Walker as a high scoring 6th man, and Marcus Morris will be at least as good as Drew Gooden.


----------



## HKF

I actually doubt Kyrie Irving would be a top 3 pick next year. There's a lot of talent in this coming HS class. He would have to be a dominant point guard next year to be picked that high.


----------



## Pacers Fan

HB said:


> The same Austin Rivers some thought Brandon Knight was on par with?


The Past ≠ The Present


----------



## HB

Cept for the fact that Knight is a better player now than he was in HS and still might not get drafted over Barnes.


----------



## E.H. Munro

HB said:


> Heh not if he leads UNC to a title.


To echo Pacers Fan, no, not even if he leads UNC to a title. Gilchrist and Baby Doc have much more complete games, and no one is going to take Barnes on the grounds that he's "a winner".



HB said:


> Cept for the fact that Knight is a better player now than he was in HS and still might not get drafted over Barnes.


Knight is a point guard only at the next level, Baby Doc can play both guard positions. And his game is good enough that he can even run the offense from the two spot. Allowing teams to use an Avery Bradley/Josh Selby type player at the 1 if they need to.


----------



## HB

Knight can play two positions. He reminds me of Tyreke Evans. Even DE has him as a PG/SG, oh by the way they have Barnes ranked higher.


----------



## Pacers Fan

HB said:


> Knight can play two positions. He reminds me of Tyreke Evans. Even DE has him as a PG/SG, oh by the way they have Barnes ranked higher.


Knight's purely a PG, and he plays nothing like Tyreke Evans. I'm sure he can play the 2 in the same way that Jim O'Brien used to play Darren Collison/TJ Ford at the 2, but in a traditional sense, no.

And of course Barnes is ranked higher. He's going to be picked higher, too. Knight's been a late lottery to late first round pick all season, and after his tournament performance, he's just now moving up in the lottery.

I don't know who you're trying to argue with about Barnes and Brandon Knight. Rivers is 10 times the prospect Brandon Knight is.


----------



## HB

Man why are you trying to make it out like there is some wide chasm between Knight and Rivers. For one Knight is listed as 6'3, Rivers is 6'4. Secondly there's a reason why Knight was named Florida's Mr Basketball twice in a row over Rivers. Rivers is more athletic, probably has more upside, but the difference between them isn't that large. When you make comments like Rivers is 10 times the prospect Knight its utter nonsense. I know when I saw both go head to head, I really didn't think they were that far off from each other.

Here's Knight's high school stats in his final year 32.5ppg 8.6rpg 3.9apg 2.5spg
Here's River's high school stats in his final year 23.9ppg 4.3rpg 1.7apg 1.9spg

Rivers isnt even leading him in any aspect of the game, NONE! Maybe we should revisit this thread next year after Rivers spends one year at Duke, though with all the wing talent they have, I'd be shocked if he has as good a season as Knight (statistically)

As for not playing like Evans, funny how their freshmen college stats are so similar. Beginning to wonder if you have watched Knight play at all.


----------



## Pacers Fan

HB said:


> Man why are you trying to make it out like there is some wide chasm between Knight and Rivers. For one Knight is listed as 6'3, Rivers is 6'4. Secondly there's a reason why Knight was named Florida's Mr Basketball twice in a row over Rivers. Rivers is more athletic, probably has more upside, but the difference between them isn't that large. When you make comments like Rivers is 10 times the prospect Knight its utter nonsense. I know when I saw both go head to head, I really didn't think they were that far off from each other.
> 
> Here's Knight's high school stats in his final year 32.5ppg 8.6rpg 3.9apg 2.5spg
> Here's River's high school stats in his final year 23.9ppg 4.3rpg 1.7apg 1.9spg


Brandon Knight was a spectacular high school player, maybe even one of the best high school players of all-time. Unfortunately, being great in high school doesn't always transition to the pros. It's really worthless comparing high school statistics and games when talking about professional potential. But if you must, Knight was ranked #4 in a much worse high school class, and Rivers is #1 in his. The guy just simply has much more of a professional game than Knight has. He's such a creative scorer that I don't even see pros right now doing some of the things he's doing. Obviously he has some facets of his game that need some fine-tuning and his height might be an issue, but the guy is a animal. I invite you to watch the All-American game on ESPN tonight. Rivers has an outstanding feel for the game and is a very smart (although I'm sure he'll be selfish tonight) player.

Now, unlike E.H., I'm not quite so sure Rivers projects as even a combo guard, but we'll see. A year of college can dramatically change someone's game. Right now he looks like a pure SG to me. 



> Maybe we should revisit this thread next year after Rivers spends one year at Duke, though with all the wing talent they have, I'd be shocked if he has as good a season as Knight (statistically)


How someone performs in college is completely irrelevant to the focus of this thread and what we're talking about. In the NBA draft, you look at professional potential, not just college production. Rivers is quite simply a much better prospect than Knight and even Barnes, and I'm sure that most coaches, scouts, GM's, and even posters here would agree with me.



> As for not playing like Evans, funny how their freshmen college stats are so similar. Beginning to wonder if you have watched Knight play at all.


Ugh, HB. Similar statistics don't indicate that players play similarly at all. Brandon Knight reminds me of a mixture of a lot of starting PG's in the NBA, but more specifically a mixture of Raymond Felton, Darren Collison, and Chauncey Billups. Of course players do change styles and he'll have to learn the pick and roll better to even come close to these guys, but he's just not a similar player to Tyreke Evans at all. Please do elaborate on what parts of their games are similar if you will.


----------



## HB

FWIW the stats were put there to let you know that the whole ten times a better prospect thing isn't true. Again if there is any difference between both its not that much. There are also many pundits that will agree with that statement. You can simply google Knight vs Rivers and read up on both. You are telling me Rivers has so many ways to score, yet Knight had the better ppg and apg. What am I missing here?

*
Here's one particular coach' interpretation *

O btw you are wrong on the whole ranking thing, Knight was ranked number 1 by Rivals, Scout ranked Barnes number 1. Again Rivers might have more upside, but this chasm you are trying to create, especially when these dudes are still teenagers doesn't make sense to me. You do realize how much Barnes developed 

Evans is a big guard that can score and also get teammates involved. How is that any different from what Knight does at Kentucky or what he will do in the pros?


----------



## Pacers Fan

HB said:


> FWIW the stats were put there to let you know that the whole ten times a better prospect thing isn't true.


Al Jefferson averaged like 40 ppg in HS. Statistics from kiddie leagues really don't do much for me. I'd really like to come up with more examples of why high school statistics don't matter, but it's honestly not worth my time.



> Again if there is any difference between both its not that much.


I really don't see you saying much of anything to support this besides, yet again, posting the statistics of one of the greatest high school players ever. Kevin Durant averaged like 20 ppg in high school. Knight's obviously a better scorer than him, right? Ugh.



> You are telling me Rivers has so many ways to score, yet Knight had the better ppg and apg. What am I missing here?


The game of basketball and nuances that lead to professional development.



> O btw you are wrong on the whole ranking thing, Knight was ranked number 1 by Rivals, Scout ranked Barnes number 1.


Hrm? I see Rivals and Scout ranking Knight #6, and ESPN ranking him #4. And yes, Barnes was #1 in a weak HS class and didn't feel like turning his game on until 2/3 of the season was over. Whoopie.



> Again Rivers might have more upside, but this chasm you are trying to create, especially when these dudes are still teenagers doesn't make sense to me. You do realize how much Barnes developed


Rivers has parts of his game that 5 year vets in the NBA would be jealous of. Now, he has a lot to work on, but part of being a former player and current head coach's son is knowing the game extremely well. As incredible a player as Rivers is right now, he's going to get much, much better, and that's what scouts will be looking at. 

And yes, Barnes looks much better now than he did earlier in the year. He actually does look like a professional out there, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him develop into a 2nd-tier SF and possible all-star like Danny Granger. Superstar? No. Does Knight have superstar potential? No. Does Rivers? Absolutely.



> Evans is a big guard that can score and also get teammates involved. How is that any different from what Knight does at Kentucky or what he will do in the pros?


Evans really doesn't get his teammates involved, and please don't post assist numbers and tell me that makes him a good floor general. 

And Knight's hardly a big guard. Tyreke Evans is as big as Michael Jordan. Brandon Knight has the prototypical size for a starting PG in the NBA.


----------



## bball2223

HB said:


> Evans is a big guard that can score and also get teammates involved. How is that any different from what Knight does at Kentucky or what he will do in the pros?


Evans is bigger and Knight is a better shooter. I can see you arguing they have similar styles of play, but they have different skill-sets too. 

Rivers is a great player, but damn Pacers Fan I think you may be getting carried away. He is a fantastic scorer and has a vast array of scoring moves. He has a great handle, makes good use of the jab step, has some real good bounce and he has fantastic range. I have yet to see him create for others and I have watched him play 5 or 6 times now, but maybe once he gets to Duke thats a facet of his game we will see (and its something he is going to have to show at 6'3"-6'4"). He could also stand to add some muscle and work on his defense. He is definitely an NBA player, but I wouldn't say he is a lock to be a superstar. I agree with you though, I would place him above Knight as an NBA prospect.


----------



## HB

My goodness, do you not realize Knight and Rivers played in the same state. That's why their high school stats were compared. They faced similar competition no? You do realize Knight and Rivers have not only played together, they have faced each other too. Jefferson did turn into a decent NBA player though, granted he never attended college, and yes I am well aware that high school stats might not mean much. The point remains, this are two guys that played in the same state and faced similar competition. So why is one guy's stats so much better than the guy who is supposed to be SUPERIOR to him?

*Link*



> Q: Who is the best prospect in the Class of 2010?
> 
> A: Depends on what scouting service you prefer.
> 
> Scout.com has Harrison Barnes (from Iowa) ranked No. 1.
> 
> Rivals.com has Brandon Knight (from Florida) ranked No. 1


*link
*



> Knight averaged 31.8 points, 8.7 rebounds and 5.6 assists as a junior and was only the third junior to ever be named Gatorade National Player of the Year. The two previous were LeBron James and Greg Oden.
> 
> *He's ranked No. 1 in the Rivals.com rankings and No. 3 by Scout.com.*


That's what I am going by. Maybe I have missed something. He was a highly touted recruit coming into this season. He was for a while the number one prospect in the country.

Heh I am not and never was a fan of Evans. I am just telling you that he's a big guard like Evans who will score and pass. Evans dominates the ball, Knight seems to be a much smarter player maybe not as naturally gifted.


----------



## Pacers Fan

bball2223 said:


> Evans is bigger and Knight is a better shooter. I can see you arguing they have similar styles, but they have different skill-sets too.
> 
> Rivers is a great player, but damn Pacers Fan I think you may be getting carried away. He is a fantastic scorer and has a vast array of scoring moves. He has a great handle, makes good use of the jab step, has some real good bounce and he has fantastic range. I have yet to see him create for others and I have watched him play 5 or 6 times now, but maybe once he gets to Duke thats a facet of his game we will see (and its something he is going to have to show at 6'3"-6'4"). He could also stand to add some muscle and work on his defense. He is definitely an NBA player, but I wouldn't say he is a lock to be a superstar. I agree with you though, I would place him above Knight as an NBA prospect.


Oh no, I absolutely agree with you. He's far from a lock to become a superstar, but I'd say he has more of a chance than anyone in this draft. He's not a Rose/Griffin/Wall/Durant-like prospect. If it seems like I'm overhyping him, remember that we're comparing his professional stock to Brandon Knight right now. He absolutely has areas of his game he needs to work on, specifically defense, but for him that's mainly effort and I'm sure Coach K will make sure he tries. A guy with his kind of awareness should be able translate into a good passer even if he isn't right now. In 4-5 years I'm wondering if he can become a Brandon Roy-type player if he really sets his mind to working on that part of his game. For now, though, it's simply not there.


----------



## E.H. Munro

HB said:


> Knight can play two positions. He reminds me of Tyreke Evans. Even DE has him as a PG/SG, oh by the way they have Barnes ranked higher.


Evans is 6'5" 225, he probably has 40-50lbs and two or three inches on Knight. Even Baby Doc has an inch or two and at least 20lbs on Knight. Sorry. If Knight can't hack it as a starting PG, then he's going to be someone coming off the bench because he doesn't have the requisite size to start at the 2 in the NBA.


----------



## E.H. Munro

bball2223 said:


> Rivers is a great player, but damn Pacers Fan I think you may be getting carried away. He is a fantastic scorer and has a vast array of scoring moves. He has a great handle, makes good use of the jab step, has some real good bounce and he has fantastic range. I have yet to see him create for others and I have watched him play 5 or 6 times now, but maybe once he gets to Duke thats a facet of his game we will see (and its something he is going to have to show at 6'3"-6'4"). He could also stand to add some muscle and work on his defense. He is definitely an NBA player, but I wouldn't say he is a lock to be a superstar. I agree with you though, I would place him above Knight as an NBA prospect.


More to the point, if you needed scoring on the wing in 2012, are you taking a pure finisher like Barnes or guys that create & finish like Gilchrist & Baby Doc? Especially given Baby Doc's shooting range. There really isn't a contest here. Even positionally this doesn't work as there's a greater need for guys that can play the 2 than the 3.


----------



## HB

BTW since we are talking FL prospects, dont forget about Brad Beal.


----------



## E.H. Munro

And I forgot Quincy Miller in the list of wing players crowding the top of the 2012 draft. There's no way that Harry Barnes cracks the top 5 next year, whereas he has an outside shot at #1 this year. Certainly the Raptors would grab him given their desperation for scoring on the wing.


----------



## HB

There's also Myck Kabongo lol this is going to be interesting if Barnes comes back for one more season. I do expect him to get better BUT there are some very talented players in next years' draft class.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

E.H. Munro said:


> And I forgot Quincy Miller in the list of wing players crowding the top of the 2012 draft. There's no way that Harry Barnes cracks the top 5 next year, whereas he has an outside shot at #1 this year. Certainly the Raptors would grab him given their desperation for scoring on the wing.


Let's give Quincy Miller a year of college ball before putting him ahead of Barnes. College game is difficult for a pure wing with NBA size, extra space and more isolation oriented style is going to make Barnes look a lot better.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> That's what I am going by. Maybe I have missed something. He was a highly touted recruit coming into this season. He was for a while the number one prospect in the country.
> 
> Heh I am not and never was a fan of Evans. I am just telling you that he's a big guard like Evans who will score and pass. Evans dominates the ball, Knight seems to be a much smarter player maybe not as naturally gifted.


Knight have a 6'11 wingspan like Evans? Hmm...


----------



## HB

He might not have that but I bet you he has a higher ball IQ


----------



## E.H. Munro

Jonathan Watters said:


> Let's give Quincy Miller a year of college ball before putting him ahead of Barnes. College game is difficult for a pure wing with NBA size, extra space and more isolation oriented style is going to make Barnes look a lot better.


I'm not, I'm simply pointing out that Barnes doesn't have a lot of competition on the wing this year, and there are going to be a lot more options out there next year. So, no, I don't see him cracking the top 5 if he comes back, and therefore think he's as good as gone.


----------



## SheriffKilla

I think Brandon Knight/Tyreke Evans is a terrible comparison but it's not really a stretch to say Barnes could get drafted over Rivers next year. At this point, I'd say Rivers will be drafted higher but it's not completely out of the question.
I like Quincy Miller and especially Michael Gilchrist more than Rivers. Baby Doc (as E.H. so elegantly put it) is an undersized 2 guard, without great PG skill at this point. He reminds bit of O.J. Mayo/Stephen Curry mix. Of course Curry developed those PG skills, Mayo didn't, so we'll what happens with Rivers.

The best comparison for Brandon Knight would probably be Gilbert Arenas, but Arenas was probably more athletic and a better slasher but both are similar with those huge wingspans and streaky shooting that can really destroy anyone when they get going.


----------



## E.H. Munro

I think Curry's a good comp for Baby Doc. I do like Gilchrist more, and if I were drafting first next year he's the guy I'd tab. But ultimately there are going to be a lot of really good wings available in the 2012 draft, so I just can't see Barnes leapfrogging them all into the top 5 next year. And that's really all I've been getting at. The only real justification for returning (economically) is to improve your draft spot, and I just can't see Barnes being able to do that.


----------



## HB

E.H. Munro said:


> I'm not, I'm simply pointing out that Barnes doesn't have a lot of competition on the wing this year, and there are going to be a lot more options out there next year. So, no, I don't see him cracking the top 5 if he comes back, and therefore think he's as good as gone.


Umm isn't Miller a PF?

*Anyhoo hot off the press*



> Shirley Barnes told The Daily Tar Heel that her son has goals that he wants to fulfill.
> 
> The North Carolina freshman forward said after losing 76-69 to Kentucky on Sunday in the Elite Eight that he felt just like he did three years ago, when a last-second shot gave Iowa’s Marshalltown the 51-50 win against Barnes-led Ames in the state playoffs when he was a sophomore.
> 
> “That hurt for three months,” his mom, Shirley Barnes, said on Tuesday. “And that was the last time he lost. He has goals and I think he wants to fulfill those goals.”
> 
> When asked if he had played his final game in a North Carolina uniform, Barnes gave no indication which way he was leaning, only that he was living in the moment that visibly consumed him.
> 
> “I’m not thinking about the NBA,” he said.
> 
> Shirley Barnes said when the time is right, her son will make his decision.
> 
> “Harrison needs to heal from this loss,” she said. “We haven’t really talked about it, honestly. It’s not pressing to us. It’s what it is.”


*Link*



> Less than a day after Shirley Barnes told The Daily Tar Heel that her son has goals that he wants to fulfill, NBAdraft.net removed Harrison Barnes from his No. 2 overall selection to completely off the board for the 2011 draft.
> 
> “I’m starting to hear more people that think he might actually go back (to UNC),” NBAdraft.net analyst Aaron Smith said. “Right now it looks like a real possibility that he’ll go back.”
> 
> Both Smith and DraftExpress.com’s director of scouting Jonathan Givony said they have not heard any real talk of Barnes, John Henson or Tyler Zeller forgoing their collegiate eligibility and going to the NBA.


Oh and Pacersfan in regards Zeller, think you might wanna read this



> Givony pointed to Zeller’s stellar postseason play as a reason why his draft stock is high. In the NCAA tournament, Zeller led the team in scoring in each of the four games.
> 
> “He runs the floor extremely well, he’s got great touch around the basket,” he said. “He was North Carolina’s No. 1 option for most of the year and probably their most consistent player. Those kind of guys are difficult to come by. I think NBA teams see that.”
> 
> Smith, though, questioned Zeller’s toughness. The 7-footer was often bullied in the paint late in the season, and Smith said that may scare away potential NBA suitors. He believes if Zeller were to leave UNC, he would be on the bubble of the first round.
> 
> “He’s got a tough demeanor, but scouts say, ‘Is he going to have the physical toughness?’ I think it’d benefit him to stay another year, get stronger and play with Kendall Marshall,” Smith said.


----------



## E.H. Munro

HB said:


> Umm isn't Miller a PF?


He has the height, but he weighs less than 200lbs. If he can't play the 3 his NBA career isn't going to go far.


----------



## Pacers Fan

HB said:


> Oh and Pacersfan in regards Zeller, think you might wanna read this


I don't see why that matters. We all knew he could run the floor well and he has a soft touch around the basket. I admire that he's been consistent and a good player in college, but I'd rather give guaranteed money to many other players. It's a weak draft, so I can see some teams liking him in the late 20's, but it really doesn't make my view extreme that I'd take him in the 35-40 range as opposed to 25-30. Dude could really benefit from going back to school another year.


----------



## HB

Its a weak draft man, that's what I am saying. Mason Plumlee, Thomas Robinson, Jajuan Johnson and the Morris twins are all supposed to be first round picks. Surely you don't think those guys are that much better than Zeller. Next year he most likely will be a second round pick if he doesn't gain some weight.


----------



## bball2223

Thomas Robinson is the best rebounder in this class and we all have seen rebounding translates as well as any skill on the next level. I think he is a lottery talent whenever he decides to come out.


----------



## SheriffKilla

Quincy Miller is similar to Durant in his skills. Not as developed and effortless as a scorer but a similar game, wouldn't say he is a PF in the NBA.


----------



## Pacers Fan

HB said:


> Its a weak draft man, that's what I am saying. Mason Plumlee, Thomas Robinson, Jajuan Johnson and the Morris twins are all supposed to be first round picks. Surely you don't think those guys are that much better than Zeller. Next year he most likely will be a second round pick if he doesn't gain some weight.


I would absolutely take all those players, without hesitation, over Zeller. In addition, I'd rather give these guys guaranteed money as well: Justin Harper from Richmond, John Henson, Tristan Thompson, and Kenneth Faried, along with the foreign bigs. I would take Zeller over Jon Leuer, though, if that's any consolation.


----------



## HB

nvm


----------



## bball2223

I think Jeremy Lamb was the best NBA prospect at the final four. He is 6'5" and extremely athletic. He has to have a near seven foot wingspan. He has a smooth offensive game. He moves well without the ball, he has a nice handle, and he has a pretty decent shot. Plus he is already a good man to man defender (with the potential to be great with his length/athletic ability), while being a tremendous off the ball defender. I like his game a lot.


----------



## HKF

If I were him I would stay in school at least through next year. He needs to grow his mindset into that of a go-to guy. He has the potential to be an all-star shooting guard with his skills, stroke, athleticism and measurables. Just needs the confidence and the reps as the lead.


----------



## SheriffKilla

Yeah, Lamb is looking really nice. But so did Durrell Summers, so Lamb needs to show he can do it for a full year and being the top option.


----------



## HKF

Calhoun is an infinitely better coach in preparing players for the NBA.

Rip Hamilton, Donyell Marshall, Donny Marshall, Travis Knight, Jake Voskuhl, Josh Boone, Charlie Villanueva, Marcus Williams, Emeka Okafor, Cliff Robinson, Scott Burrell, Ray Allen, Rudy Gay, Hilton Armstrong, Ben Gordon, Caron Butler, Hasheem Thabeet, Jeff Adrien, Kevin Ollie

One thing about Calhoun is he puts guys in the NBA. Who's the last player Izzo put in the league? Seriously? I just looked it up and it's Shannon Brown.


----------



## Drewbs

UNC's big 3 are coming back...


----------



## HB

We win!


----------



## Porn Player

We lose!






EDIT - We = Raptors, for those who don't know who I follow


----------



## HB

I haven't seen any reports of this though....Raptors should hope Derrick Williams comes out.


----------



## Porn Player

Yeah a lot of the Raptors board are leaning towards Derrick Williams, Harrison Barnes or Kyrie Irving. 

If all three stay in school, this nightmare of a season is about to enter mach 2.


----------



## croco

Porn Player said:


> Yeah a lot of the Raptors board are leaning towards Derrick Williams, Harrison Barnes or Kyrie Irving.
> 
> If all three stay in school, this nightmare of a season is about to enter mach 2.


Neither of these guys are surefire all-star types anyway, I wouldn't get too excited if I had a high pick this season.


----------



## Porn Player

It's always the same when the Raptors have a high pick. 

Praise the heavens we snagged that number one pick and got superstar Bargnani. Oh wait.


----------



## Porn Player

I also think Kyrie Irving will be a sure fire star. Something about that kid I like alot. 


I'm high on Brandon Knight too, so wouldn't be distraught if we walked away with him.


----------



## HB

Well Mr. Irving just declared. Looks like Duke will have back to back 'one and dones.'


----------



## bball2223

Porn Player said:


> I also think Kyrie Irving will be a sure fire star. Something about that kid I like alot.
> 
> 
> I'm high on Brandon Knight too, so wouldn't be distraught if we walked away with him.


You were hating on Irving last week. What sparked this sudden change?


----------



## Porn Player

bball2223 said:


> You were hating on Irving last week. What sparked this sudden change?


Not hating, just talking about that one game. A game he didn't even play badly in, he just didn't go to the lengths I thought he might to keep the score close. It bothered me a little bit but when taking into account everything he's been through this season I've decided to give him a pass. 

I had already seen enough from the kid to know he was the type of player I would love on my franchise. It's great for the Raptors that he has declared, I hope the other top tier guys do the same.


----------



## yodurk

What's Irving's ceiling in the NBA?

A slightly less good version of Chris Paul? Tim Hardaway in his prime?

From what I've heard he has top line skills and shoot ability, but doesn't have nearly the physical dominance that Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, or John Wall have, nor even the bulk that CP3 or Deron Williams have.

Sounds like a surefire starting PG, maybe even the sort that could be an all-star.


----------



## Drewbs

I've been trying to find a comparison for Irving, and the more I think about it the more Irving reminds me a bit of Kevin Johnson. Maybe a little bit less athletic but with more range. He is athletic, but not athletic like Wall or Rose. Though, to be fair, those two represent a whole new breed of point guard with the type of physical ability that you don't really ever see at the position. He is really an excellent finisher in the lane and a really good shooter with great form on his jumper. Also has very good shot selection though he does like to take shots and is a bit more of a scorer than a guy who is going to be looking primarily to set guys up. That was the impression that I got from him watching him for the 11 games that he played at Duke this year.

He should be a very good player. Probably the safest pick of the top 10.


----------



## Porn Player

I think it's tough to make comparisons with NBA players. Most of those guys have a couple years on Irving in the physical development stakes. 

His skill set reminds me of CP3. I love the fact he came back into the Tournament after a long time out and took control of that Duke team right away, only certain players have that quality.


----------



## HB

Well at least he's smart, no way he puts up better numbers with Rivers on board.


----------



## SheriffKilla

yodurk said:


> What's Irving's ceiling in the NBA?
> 
> A slightly less good version of Chris Paul? Tim Hardaway in his prime?
> 
> From what I've heard he has top line skills and shoot ability, but doesn't have nearly the physical dominance that Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, or John Wall have, nor even the bulk that CP3 or Deron Williams have.
> 
> Sounds like a surefire starting PG, maybe even the sort that could be an all-star.


I guesss Tim Hardaway or Isiah is his absolute ceiling but I doubt he gets that good. 17-18/7-8 seems more likely to me.
You do make a good point about the bulk though, I think putting on some muscle can help him at the next level.
I do hope he can stay healthy, which seems to be the biggest question mark surrounding him and especially with the history some Duke players have had in the NBA(Jay Williams, Grant Hill, Laettner, Dunleavy to a lesser extent, even Boozer and Deng had some nagging injuries)


----------



## HKF

Kevin Johnson, hell to the no. Have you seen Kevin Johnson play? This guy was a 20/10 point guard, strong as an ox and could shoot with range or dunk on a big man with crazy hops. This dude is good, but he's no Kevin Johnson. Kevin Johnson at times was close to Isiah Thomas in ability.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

I would say KJ was a much better offensive player than Isaiah. But johnson was never much of a defensive player, and also spent half his career on the IR. 

Irving reminds me a bit of Mike Conley. I think he'll be a better NBA player than Conley, but their games seem similar.


----------



## ball_dont_lie

Perry Jones 14? he should be in the top 3


----------



## Jonathan Watters

Bismack Biyombo is definitely in the Top 14. Anybody else see him tonight?


----------



## Geaux Tigers

I saw Biyombo last night. Extremely quick off of the floor and he is constant pursuit of blocked shots and rebounds. I was impressed though some of his numbers came at the end of the game when the USA looked to be in control. Biyombo is a project but the athleticism is certainly there. With this weak draft taking a chance on him is less of a gamble than in previous years with the other highly athletic underskilled project big men.

Austin Rivers though...wow.


----------



## Porn Player

Biyombo is intriguing. Ben Wallace comparisons are flying around the internet this morning. All I know is the Raptors would love a player like him. 

I'm really hoping the Raptors can swindle another pick from somewhere. Any combo of Irving, D.Williams, Valanciuncas, Knight, Biyombo and maybe even Fredette and I would be stoked.


----------



## HB

No word from Derrico and Harrison still?


----------



## Drewbs

As it currently stands, I expect Harrison Barnes will be back for next season. 

I can't say for sure because I can't say for sure that his mind is completely made up at this point, BUT... I feel like there is more reason to believe that he is coming back than not based on the rumblings that I've been hearing. I will rest easy though when he actually puts out a press-release.


----------



## HB

Word on the tweets is that Barnes and Perry Jones are staying meaning this will be the worst NBA draft up to this point. Sorry Cavs.


----------



## Drewbs

If the Cavs get the first pick I think they're still solid picking Irving. May not be a home run point guard prospect like Rose or Wall, but I don't think there has ever been a point guard prospect like Rose or Wall.

That being said, falling to the 3rd or 4th pick would be absolutely devastating, imagine having to take Terrence Jones (IF he goes that is) as the wing to build your franchise around when you could've had Barnes or Perry Jones or Derrick Williams at that spot.

But LOL at 2 (and potentially 3 or 4) of the top 5 picks going back to school. College basketball is going to be CRAZY next year. Baylor is going to be very good, and the 2012 draft will be absolutely packed.


----------



## HB

Knight is a better pro prospect. In other news Quincy Miller and Perry Jones will be on the same team......whoa!!!!


----------



## 3pointgod

This draft class is just so weak, I don't even want to contemplate the the top 14... The fact that Jimmer is even mentioned makes me cringe.


----------



## croco

Drewbs said:


> If the Cavs get the first pick I think they're still solid picking Irving. May not be a home run point guard prospect like Rose or Wall, but I don't think there has ever been a point guard prospect like Rose or Wall.
> 
> That being said, falling to the 3rd or 4th pick would be absolutely devastating, imagine having to take Terrence Jones (IF he goes that is) as the wing to build your franchise around when you could've had Barnes or Perry Jones or Derrick Williams at that spot.
> 
> But LOL at 2 (and potentially 3 or 4) of the top 5 picks going back to school. College basketball is going to be CRAZY next year. Baylor is going to be very good, and the 2012 draft will be absolutely packed.


I feel bad for whoever gets drafted by the Cavs... they will be awful for years to come. There is literally no talent on the team.


----------



## Drewbs

HB said:


> *Knight is a better pro prospect.* In other news Quincy Miller and Perry Jones will be on the same team......whoa!!!!


lol no he isn't.


----------



## HB

What does Irving do better than Knight?


----------



## Drewbs

HB said:


> What does Irving do better than Knight?


Irving is more heady than Knight, he is also a better shooter with better shot selection and does a better job controlling the game. He is also better at getting into the lane and finishing. Considering how quick Knight is, and his height and length, the game he plays is frustrating. All I ever see him do is shoot jumpers. Neither players are elite athletes and neither are elite playmakers for their positions. They both tend to stagnate the offense at times, but at the very least, when Irving hogs the ball, he drives to the hoop and gets fouled or finishes while Knight chucks a 3 or pulls up for that weird mid range floater thing that he does.


----------



## Drewbs

Crap, so HB might be gone... 

Nothing is official until he announces though. Still holding out hope here.


----------



## HB

Came across this, *didn't know Selby declared*


----------



## Drewbs

Barnes to return. 

Special kid...


----------



## croco

Drewbs said:


> Barnes to return.
> 
> Special kid...


I guess those reports about his character were totally accurate. Wouldn't surprise me if he made the jump from very good college player to NPOY contender next season.


----------



## HB

UNC is the best team in the country. We win!


----------



## Porn Player

Raptors lose. 

Faaaaaaaaaack. 

God I hope we win the lottery.


----------



## Drewbs

croco said:


> I guess those reports about his character were totally accurate. Wouldn't surprise me if he made the jump from very good college player to NPOY contender next season.


Barnes has been telling people that he's coming back for weeks now, but last week Cleveland showed very strong interest in drafting him and Roy Williams pushed him to strongly consider it which I thought would've been it.


----------



## HKF

I'm still not sure how turning down money shows character. It's not like it's blood money. I hope he improves and keeps his draft status. People who cite college experience as the best times of your life, really have no lives to begin with. UNC is the favorite now though.


----------



## Porn Player

HKF said:


> People who cite college experience as the best times of your life, really have no lives to begin with.


For an intelligient dude this is a knuckleheaded statement if ever I saw one. 

For one, how can you make such a vast judgement on people? Have you done some research into the area? 

For two, why can't people cite college as the best times of their lives? It's hassle free, you don't have the stress of a job in your life and you don't have to worry about paying bills. All you have to worry about is having a good time. 

Ofcourse, some people have a wholly different take on college careers but that's how I view mine. 

I think the point you're trying to make is that there is much more to life than college, and while I agree, that doesn't always mean that the memories made at college can be squashed.


----------



## Drewbs

HKF said:


> I'm still not sure how turning down money shows character. It's not like it's blood money. I hope he improves and keeps his draft status. People who cite college experience as the best times of your life, really have no lives to begin with. UNC is the favorite now though.


It means that there may be more important things to him than money right now, like showing commitment to the coach that showed commitment to him and being part of something special in Chapel Hill next year. It tells me that a player is motivated to not leave a job undone, that he cares about winning and that he is part of a team.

To me, that shows some pretty high character. 

Also, the basketball players here enjoy college. It's fun, you don't have many obligations outside of going to class, going to practice, working hard and not getting in trouble. I know I enjoyed college at UNC, and I wasn't even a basketball player. Even though "real life" has its perks, I still miss it.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Drewbs said:


> If the Cavs get the first pick I think they're still solid picking Irving. May not be a home run point guard prospect like Rose or Wall, but I don't think there has ever been a point guard prospect like Rose or Wall.


Not really. He's OK, but I wouldn't consider him an all-star level player. Drafting first and not landing an all-star is a recipe for suckage. I understand there are no all-stars out there, but this was the absolute worst possible draft to suck in front of. Honestly, if I were the Cavs, I'd be looking to swap my 2011 pick for one next year. It's a hard sell to the fans, of course, but a 10-20 pick next year is likely to be as good as #1 this year.


----------



## HB

As a top athlete you are pretty much a deity in college....that experience can never be replicated.


----------



## Drewbs

E.H. Munro said:


> Not really. He's OK, but I wouldn't consider him an all-star level player. Drafting first and not landing an all-star is a recipe for suckage. I understand there are no all-stars out there, but this was the absolute worst possible draft to suck in front of. Honestly, if I were the Cavs, I'd be looking to swap my 2011 pick for one next year. It's a hard sell to the fans, of course, but a 10-20 pick next year is likely to be as good as #1 this year.


I think you might be underselling Irving a little bit. I really don't see what keeps him from being an all-star level player. He doesn't have the elite athleticism of a Wall or Rose, but he's not un-athletic nor is he slow by any means. He's pretty quick, has a good handle, shoots the ball well and finishes well inside. There are no obvious holes in his game.


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## E.H. Munro

I'm not arguing that, but here in the Golden Age of point guards he's decidedly not an all star level player.


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## Porn Player

I think if the past few years has taught us anything, the kid needs at least a year in the NBA to be judged properly. 

CP3 did not look like an all star PG coming out. Derrick Rose wasn't even a lock for the number 1 pick before the tournament and took a year to really find his groove in the NBA. DWill, same as CP3. 

You get where I'm going. You just can't tell how these PG kids are going to run an NBA team, so making statements now will only lead to you getting called out in the future.


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## HB

CP3 did not? Are you serious? There were debates about him and Deron right from their college days.


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## E.H. Munro

Porn Player said:


> I think if the past few years has taught us anything, the kid needs at least a year in the NBA to be judged properly.
> 
> CP3 did not look like an all star PG coming out. Derrick Rose wasn't even a lock for the number 1 pick before the tournament and took a year to really find his groove in the NBA. DWill, same as CP3.
> 
> You get where I'm going. You just can't tell how these PG kids are going to run an NBA team, so making statements now will only lead to you getting called out in the future.


I've never been afraid of being wrong, and freely confess it, as with CP3. When he was coming out of college I thought that he'd prove to be too injury prone to dominate in the NBA, and preferred Williams. I was wrong, he's had some injuries, but not to any degree that disqualifies him from being the best point guard on the planet.


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## Damian Necronamous

Judging off of the buzz, the Top 14 guys right now look to be Kyrie Irving, Derrick Williams, Enes Kanter, those three European guys that nobody has ever seen play, Kemba Walker, Jimmer Fredette, the Morris twins, Brandon Knight, Terrence Jones, Alec Burks and Kawhi Leonard.

I think Jordan Hamilton and Kenneth Faried will be very solid NBA players. I'd Hamilton in a heartbeat over Knight, Jones or Leonard.


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## HB

Thought Hamilton said he was going back to Texas?


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## Drewbs

Most folks around Texas think that Hamilton is gone. The 3 Kentucky early entrants haven't hired agents though I doubt they withdraw. Liggins is definitely gone, he has to support a family and this year is his best chance of potentially making the first round because the draft is so awful. Knight and Jones also will not go any higher than they would this year.


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## croco

Drewbs said:


> Most folks around Texas think that Hamilton is gone. The 3 Kentucky early entrants haven't hired agents though I doubt they withdraw. Liggins is definitely gone, he has to support a family and this year is his best chance of potentially making the first round because the draft is so awful. Knight and Jones also will not go any higher than they would this year.


There is no chance Liggins will be a first round pick even in this draft. I doubt he will have a long NBA career, if any.


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## E.H. Munro

croco said:


> There is no chance Liggins will be a first round pick even in this draft. I doubt he will have a long NBA career, if any.


But he probably gets drafted this year, which wouldn't happen next year. This is probably his only chance to eke out a cup of coffee in the NBA and then turn that into a guaranteed contract overseas.


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## HB

This Tristan Thompson fella....now he's in after vehemently saying he wasn't going into the draft


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## BlueBaron

If Keith Bogans can start for the Bulls, Liggins can have a career in the NBA...


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## Geaux Tigers

BlueBaron said:


> If Keith Bogans can start for the Bulls, Liggins can have a career in the NBA...


No.


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## scdn

HB said:


> This Tristan Thompson fella....now he's in after vehemently saying he wasn't going into the draft


He hasn't hired an agent. He can still back out.


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## E.H. Munro

This is probably his only shot at first round money. I don't blame him for taking the leap.


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## scdn

Why is this his only shot at 1st round money? Texas is supposed to have a good recruiting class coming in next year. Plus, he can still improve.


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## E.H. Munro

He'll go in the middle of the first this year. Given the depth of the 2012 draft there's a zero percent chance of him cracking the first round next year. At the very least if he stays in school this year, he'll need to delay entry by a minimum of two years to reach the first round again, and quite likely he'd need to play a full four years to get that same 15-20 spot that he'll get this year. And those lost wages aren't going to get replaced by a worthless college degree. Add in the injury risk factor and this is really the best decision he could make.

Off topic, check your PMs, will you?


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## scdn

The way things seem at the start of the year are rarely how they end up. Some players projected to be in the 2012 draft might not enter, and other players have the same injury risk as him.

An off topic, I did, and was just thinking of how to respond to yours.


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## E.H. Munro

The best of the class of 2010 decided to go back to school rather than sit out a lockout. That and the flood of one & dones are going to keep Thompson out of the first next year unless he magically grows some game that I just haven't seen from him to date. He'd lose a lot of money by waiting another two years to enter the draft, and money that he can't make up unless he turns himself into a max player, and there's zero chance that he does.


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## Jonathan Watters

Tristan Thompson is severely underrated on most of the mock drafts right now. He was thought of a skilled/upside/questionable toughness guy coming into college, and comes out with the exact opposite reputation. The guy was perhaps the best individual post defender in college basketball last year, just out-toughed the opposition most of the time, and will able to defend the 4 position immediately in the NBA. 

His offense is raw, but better than advertised. Certainly has the post/midrange game, just needs to work on his jumper. I think of the jumps that Ed Davis and Greg Monroe made this past year, and Thompson is easily capable of that. 

He's a starting caliber PF early in his career, and he's projected as a mid first rounder by most at the moment. I think he could go as high as #5, and no way he falls out of the Top 10.


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## E.H. Munro

I don't doubt that he can be a starting PF (I mean if Jeff Green can be a starting 4 in the NBA then so can Thompson), but he's still undersized. Monroe & Davis were/are bigger, and Davis has more upside as a defensive 4, as the 6'8" 230 Thompson won't be making his living as a post defender in the NBA. 

Given the depth next year, T-Square might have trouble cracking the top 30. So he'd need to wait to 2013 to get a first round guarantee, and economically the two years of lost wages are hard to make up when you're a defensive roleplayer.


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## croco

Jonathan Watters said:


> Tristan Thompson is severely underrated on most of the mock drafts right now. He was thought of a skilled/upside/questionable toughness guy coming into college, and comes out with the exact opposite reputation. The guy was perhaps the best individual post defender in college basketball last year, just out-toughed the opposition most of the time, and will able to defend the 4 position immediately in the NBA.
> 
> His offense is raw, but better than advertised. Certainly has the post/midrange game, just needs to work on his jumper. I think of the jumps that Ed Davis and Greg Monroe made this past year, and Thompson is easily capable of that.
> 
> He's a starting caliber PF early in his career, and he's projected as a mid first rounder by most at the moment. I think he could go as high as #5, and no way he falls out of the Top 10.


I'm not quite as high on him as you are, but I agree for the most part. He will be a lottery pick for sure.


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## Jonathan Watters

E.H. Munro said:


> I don't doubt that he can be a starting PF (I mean if Jeff Green can be a starting 4 in the NBA then so can Thompson), but he's still undersized. Monroe & Davis were/are bigger, and Davis has more upside as a defensive 4, as the 6'8" 230 Thompson won't be making his living as a post defender in the NBA.
> 
> Given the depth next year, T-Square might have trouble cracking the top 30. So he'd need to wait to 2013 to get a first round guarantee, and economically the two years of lost wages are hard to make up when you're a defensive roleplayer.


A year ago at the hoop summit Thompson measured 6'8.5 with shoes and a 7'2 wingspan. 

Ed Davis is 6'9.75 in shoes with a 7'0 wingspan. 

Even if you assume he had already stopped growing, Thompson isn't undersized for an NBA 4-man. What he lacks in height he makes up for in length, athleticism, and build. I would also point out his offensive rebounding and shot blocking numbers that are every bit that of an NBA power forward. 

And I don't care how much "upside" Ed Davis has at the 4. It is extremely unlikely he'll ever be half the defender that Tristan Thompson already is.


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## ClearlyTheExpert

I know Harrison Barnes isn't in the draft, but where was he on your list? He dominated from mid-January on and still ended up averaging nearly 16 points after an awfully slow start.


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## HB

Top 5 pick


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## HB

Terrence Jones is going back to college


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## E.H. Munro

This draft gets ****tier by the hour. At this point if I had #2 I'd be using it to unload salary.


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## EpicFailGuy

E.H. Munro said:


> This draft gets ****tier by the hour. At this point if I had #2 I'd be using it to unload salary.


Looking at this draft, could you even do that?


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## Pacers Fan

E.H. Munro said:


> This draft gets ****tier by the hour. At this point if I had #2 I'd be using it to unload salary.


Derrick Williams looks like a stud-muffin, at least the same kind of stud-muffin in the mold of Michael Beasley. Outside of Irving and Williams, who aren't even guarantees to be all-stars, this draft is a crapshoot. A lot of the guys picked in the lottery might not even make it past their rookie contracts.


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## E.H. Munro

BustedDreams49 said:


> Looking at this draft, could you even do that?


Hey, Cleveland's still out there looking for the killer deal. :bsmile:


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## EpicFailGuy

E.H. Munro said:


> Hey, Cleveland's still out there looking for the killer deal. :bsmile:


Brandon Knight staying in the draft and being top 5 is a pretty good indication of how weak the draft is. That kid's as Raw as sushi.


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## HB

Knight will be a good player


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## E.H. Munro

Pacers Fan said:


> Derrick Williams looks like a stud-muffin, at least the same kind of stud-muffin in the mold of Michael Beasley. Outside of Irving and Williams, who aren't even guarantees to be all-stars, this draft is a crapshoot. A lot of the guys picked in the lottery might not even make it past their rookie contracts.


I'm not all that impressed with either Beasley or Williams. Irving is really the only guy in this pool that I think has a prayer of making an all-star game. Given the people that have pulled out, Kenny Faried may be a lottery pick.


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## Tom

I know this draft is one big sleeper but my super sleeper to make a team and contribute as a bench player soon for a good team if he gets drafted is Brad Wanamaker:grinning: I like his game. He is a good passer.

My straight sleeperish guy is Nikola Vucevic

My...I just have a feeling guy is David Lighty...I know big 10 ugghh.


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## bball2223

I'm usually following the draft by this time, but I have no interest this year because of how weak the draft is.


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## hobojoe

bball2223 said:


> I'm usually following the draft by this time, but I have no interest this year because of how weak the draft is.


Same here. I do like Irving and Williams, but outside of them -- good luck. I also am interested in seeing where Chris Singleton ends up. He should absolutely go in the lottery with the lack of depth in this draft.


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## Tom

I'm trying to use the uncertainty as the motivator...it could be an interesting draft day in that respect.


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## raptors101

I think that this draft is not as weak as it is projected. If Harrison Barnes & Jared Sullinger were still in it, we would be watching an average draft.
I think people do not look past the Irving and Williams picks. The word of mouth that has been passed on has only touted these 2 players, I think there are many more players that will end up having a respectable and even all-star career.

I have paid specific attention to Enes Kanter. All he is missing is the explosiveness, he has every other aspect of the game.
Thesportspad.weebly.com has scouted him well. Click for a great blog post on Enes Kanter

Other than Kanter, I am high on many other players
-Brandon Knight
-Tristan Thomas
-Kemba Walker
-Bismack Biyombo

Make sure you guys check TheSportsPad for some great scouting reports coming up


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## SheriffKilla

Yeah, I like the international guys. Don't know about Vesely, he seems like a poor man's Bargnani but I like the Lithuanians, Biyombo and Kanter. Nikola Mirotic is a sleeper too if he decides to come over to the States. 
I'm going to update this list in a bit but I'm thinking since the Cavs have both the 1st and 4th, why not grab Williams 1st and than you'll have either Kemba or B.Knight for the 4th pick.


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## Balladdict

The NBA just released a Pre Draft Workout of the former Duke player, Kyrie Irving :

http://www.iwatchthisgame.com/2011-nba-draft/kyrie-irvings-workout-before-the-nba-draft.html

I don't know why, but i'm still not convinced that he could be the future #1 pick...I don't see him dominating in the NBA...Actually, Kemba Walker would be my #1


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## Porn Player

SheriffKilla said:


> Yeah, I like the international guys. Don't know about Vesely, he seems like a poor man's Bargnani but I like the Lithuanians, Biyombo and Kanter. Nikola Mirotic is a sleeper too if he decides to come over to the States.
> I'm going to update this list in a bit but I'm thinking since the Cavs have both the 1st and 4th, why not grab Williams 1st and than you'll have either Kemba or B.Knight for the 4th pick.


Vesely is a SF that lacks an outside shot. He slashes and is a gifted athlete. He is nothing like Bargnani. He plays with heart and hustle, regularly getting amped in games. Again, nothing like Bargnani. 

Don't just see a tall white dude and label him Bargnani. Or if you have other reasons for the camparison please make me aware of them?


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## Pacers Fan

Porn Player said:


> Vesely is a SF that lacks an outside shot. He slashes and is a gifted athlete. He is nothing like Bargnani. He plays with heart and hustle, regularly getting amped in games. Again, nothing like Bargnani.
> 
> Don't just see a tall white dude and label him Bargnani. Or if you have other reasons for the camparison please make me aware of them?


Yep, Vesely's a lot more like Andrei Kirilenko, except his passing isn't quite as good. He probably has more offensive potential than Kirilenko, but people also thought AK could be a dynamic scorer years ago.

Maybe Jonas Jerebko would be a good comparison?


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## Porn Player

Bit less strength and a bit more fluidity. I haven't seen all that much out of Jerebko if I'm honest (I mean who watches Pistons basketball??), but what I've read he seems to bang a lot more than I would expect Vesely too. 

I actually think the AK47 one isn't all that bad. He could certainly turn into that all round type of player. When he first enters the league he will rely on his Defense which looks solid and his transitional game which looks really nice. My only concern is with his hands, in what I have seen of him, they're not anything special at getting hold of difficult passes and he struggles to keep hold of the ball when driving to the hoop due to a lack of ball protection and his lack of 'hands'.

I just wrote 'hands' a lot didn't I?


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## Pacers Fan

Porn Player said:


> Bit less strength and a bit more fluidity. I haven't seen all that much out of Jerebko if I'm honest (I mean who watches Pistons basketball??), but what I've read he seems to bang a lot more than I would expect Vesely too.
> 
> I actually think the AK47 one isn't all that bad. He could certainly turn into that all round type of player. When he first enters the league he will rely on his Defense which looks solid and his transitional game which looks really nice. My only concern is with his hands, in what I have seen of him, they're not anything special at getting hold of difficult passes and he struggles to keep hold of the ball when driving to the hoop due to a lack of ball protection and his lack of 'hands'.
> 
> I just wrote 'hands' a lot didn't I?


Jerebko was out all of this season and he has more muscle than Vesely, but I could see him turning into a hybrid forward rebounder/defender if his offensive game doesn't turn out, which I don't think it will. I could easily see him turning into a Viktor Khryapa (sp?) and sticking around for a few years, but I don't see any star potential in him.

My bottomline with Vesely is that I don't see why teams are even thinking about him in the top 10. He, Valanciunas, and Motiejunas just don't impress me at all. They all have NBA potential in various ways, but they're all years away from starting and incredibly raw. At least we know that Kanter has NBA skill, right now.


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## Porn Player

You're telling me Vesely would take years to adapt to a team like the Wizards? I think he would fit right in with his skill set. 

On a more structured team that likes to run a lot of plays, yeah, he might struggle offensively with his lack of shot but his positioning and work rate are second to none. I think he'll adapt just fine. 

Kanter hasn't played a competitive game in a year neither. These Euro kids have been playing week in and week out for the best teams outside of the NBA. Val might take a while to develop because he'll be playing C, and that's the norm.


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## Pacers Fan

Porn Player said:


> You're telling me Vesely would take years to adapt to a team like the Wizards? I think he would fit right in with his skill set.
> 
> On a more structured team that likes to run a lot of plays, yeah, he might struggle offensively with his lack of shot but his positioning and work rate are second to none. I think he'll adapt just fine.
> 
> Kanter hasn't played a competitive game in a year neither. These Euro kids have been playing week in and week out for the best teams outside of the NBA. Val might take a while to develop because he'll be playing C, and that's the norm.


I could see Vesely being the 8th man on the Wizards and playing 10-15 mpg as a rookie, but I think he's years away from starting. I'd rather have Trevor Booker out there, anyway. For a guy whose peak is probably going to be around 14/7/3/2/1 if he ever gets there, I just don't see why he's a lottery pick.

Yeh, Kanter hasn't played competitively, but he's still been working. He has a smooth jumper and good footwork, not to mention he can bang as well. Those are things that don't really go away besides the jumper. When he gets back in shape, his jumper will come back and his other skills will already remain.


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## Porn Player

Pacers Fan said:


> I could see Vesely being the 8th man on the Wizards and playing 10-15 mpg as a rookie, but I think he's years away from starting. I'd rather have Trevor Booker out there, anyway. For a guy whose peak is probably going to be around 14/7/3/2/1 if he ever gets there, I just don't see why he's a lottery pick..


That's not a bad line from a kid taken at the 6th spot in a horrible draft. 


He's a lottery pick.


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## Pacers Fan

Porn Player said:


> That's not a bad line from a kid taken at the 6th spot in a horrible draft.
> 
> 
> He's a lottery pick.


That's what I think his absolute, break-through-the-ceiling potential is. The kid just seems to have role player potential. I would much rather have Knight, Kanter, Walker, Thompson, Burks, the Morris twins, Jimmer Fredette, and most of the mid-late 1st round swingmen than Vesely. Chris Singleton's probably going to give you about the same production, Honeycutt's similarly limited, Jordan Hamilton has some promise, and Davis Bertans already has that one NBA-ready skill that Vesely doesn't.

I mean, very few players in this draft have star potential, but if I know I'm getting a role player or a 3rd option type, give me one who already has an NBA skill. 

But this is all based on watching 5-6 highlight/scouting videos and reading about him. I'm sure someone who's seen him in real games could give a better opinion than I could. And I'm sure if I'm wrong that someone will bump this and make me look like an idiot. But oh well.


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## HB

Kemba measured out even better at the combine. If I were the Cavs, I'd seriously consider Williams 1 and Kemba/Knight at 4. I think people are scared to put anyone over Irving because he's a safe bet, but there's no doubt that Kemba will fit in nicely wherever he goes.


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## Jonathan Watters

zagsfan20 said:


> You said Kidd and Rondo can get away with not having a deep ball. My initial concern was about Walker's size. Not only does he not have deep jumper, but he's going to measure out under 6'0".


Hmm, 5'11 3/4 without shoes, 6'1 with shoes...6'3 1/2 wingspan

Will this be the first time in recorded history that zagsfan admits he was wrong about something, or will the streak continue?


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## Jonathan Watters

With those measurements, people are fooling themselves if they think Kemba Walker isn't a starting caliber PG in the NBA. He's more likely an all-star than he is a backup. 

Top 5 pick in this draft, probably ought to be Top 3, but if Cleveland takes Irving and Minnesota keeps Kurt Rambis as their coach the only possibility is Utah. And they ought to take him.


----------



## HB

I thought Devin Harris plays for Utah


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## Jonathan Watters

Do you really change your pick based on having Devin Harris?


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## HB

Well there's no guarantee none of the points in this draft will ever be as good as he is.


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## Diable

Since you used a double negative you would be correct


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