# ROY Discussion (Mayo vs. Rose vs. Westbrook vs. Lopez)



## MemphisX

:sparta:

I seriously think it is down to these three. It seems like Beasley will not get the minutes to compete and all the other rookies are either to far behind or lacking in production. 

The top rookie PERs as of December 8:

1. Rudy Fernandez - 17.91
2. Marreese Speights - 17.54
3.* Derrick Rose *- 17.49
4. *OJ Mayo *- 17.41
5. Anthony Morrow - 17.24
6. Marc Gasol - 17.17
7. JaVale McGee - 16.92
8. *Greg oden *- 16.78
9. George Hill - 16.48
10. Kevin Love - 16.36

K Love has been putting up some double doubles lately but does anyone other than the 3 in bold have a chance in the _Brandon _ROY race? Is Rose the odds on favorite? Will Mayo's team kill his chances? 

Right now I have Rose and Mayo in a dead heat. I still think Oden will surpass both of them due to his chance to put up some dominating performances on national TV. Mayo's lack of exposure to voters will make him an under dog unless he puts up some insane numbers or the Grizzlies start being more competitive.

Thoughts?eace:


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## Prolific Scorer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

*OJ Mayo reminds me of a more polished Larry Hughes, with more of a shooting touch/halfcourt game.

Not quite the athlete as Hughes though.*


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## Prolific Scorer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

*I also see the comparison with Mayo and a young Mitch Richmond.

Good perimeter shooters/scorers who can handle the ball, crafty and not really athletic freaks.*


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## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Right now i think Rose is running away with it. He is already a top ten point guard in the league, when he was supposed to be a project that would take a while to develop. Mayo is the only other one right now that looks like he may steal a few votes away right now.


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## The Krakken

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

I have Rose, SLIGHTLY ahead of Mayo, due to his impact on team wins and losses. The bulls, without Rose, would be about 3-17, instead of 9-11. That's AT BEST. And that cannot be overstated. Rose has single-handedly won about 4-5 games for the bulls.

As for Oden, I just dont expect him to catch them this year. He'll have too many nights where he only plays 14 minutes due to him having 5 fouls. He'll have too many 4 point, 5 rebound and 5 foul type games.


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## GNG

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Rose vs. Mayo on Friday, Dec. 12.


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## Priest

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

the fact that rose is in a major market is appealing. plus being a point also helps. barring a injury rose should win. Mayo is on a bad team (not saying the bulls are great) but I think he is playing better then a lot of people expected. Besides the 4th quater of the suns game, I feel that mayo isnt being used correctly. Oden isnt going to win because he is on a good team with a all star and he really doesnt have the chance to stand out. Also he is still raw on offense and joel is playing great this year.


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## Priest

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Cinco de Mayo said:


> Rose vs. Mayo on Friday, Dec. 12.


it would be epic if they both guarded each other


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## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



The Krakken said:


> As for Oden, I just dont expect him to catch them this year. He'll have too many nights where he only plays 14 minutes due to him having 5 fouls. He'll have too many 4 point, 5 rebound and 5 foul type games.


in his 16 games, oden has had two so far in which he has played less than 20 minutes and had 5 or more fouls. so i'd say that isn't really the problem you're making it out to be.

one thing oden will have that might hold him back some stat and minute wise is that joel has been playing really well at center. in games when joel is playing great defensively and dominating the boards, oden is probably going to be limited to 20 minutes or even less.


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## Drewbs

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Greg Oden needs time to develop, a lot of centers take a while to get adjusted to the pros, and it doesn't help that he just came off an entire season where he didn't play basketball.


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## NewAgeBaller

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

1. Rose
2. Mayo

3. Everyone else

...at this point.


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## The Solution

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

I think Greg Oden would be leading the rookie of the year race if it wasn't for him being so inconsistent, some days he has a 10-10 night then the next he has a 2-3 night with 5 fouls. Its crazy, but I think that since the Bulls are a LITTLE bit better than the Grizzlies i'm going to give the rookie of the year leader to...Rose by the slightest of margins.


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## BlakeJesus

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Unfortunately I don't see Oden being as much as a competitor for this award as Mayo and Rose. It's going to be between those two, Rose would probably win it right now but there's still plenty of season left. I'm a strong supporter for OJ Mayo.


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## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Both Rose and Mayo are playing great. I give the edge to Rose. but its still early and Mayo has plenty of time.


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## PauloCatarino

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



MemphisX said:


> :sparta:
> 
> I seriously think it is down to these *three*.


Oden? Why?


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## Blue

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Yeah, why is Oden still in the discusion? In the 1st post you say Beasley isnt getting the minutes to win the award, but then proceed top Oden in your top 3 when he is getting less minutes than Beasley?? :thinking2: In all honesty, Fernandez is the best rookie in Portland @ this point.

@ this point I would say overall:

1) D. Rose
2) OJ Mayo
3) Brooklyn Lopez
4) Russel Westbrook
5) Rudy Fernandez
6) DJ Augustine
7) Beasley
8) Love
9) Super Mario
10)Thompson/Gasol


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## Basel

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Greg Oden isn't winning it nor should he even be in the discussion right now. If you're going to mention anybody from Portland, it has to be Rudy Fernandez. 

1. Rose
2. Mayo
3. Fernandez


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## MemphisX

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

I expect Oden to have a great 2nd half.


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## Basel

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



MemphisX said:


> I expect Oden to have a great 2nd half.


A great 2nd half only won't get you the Rookie of the Year award.


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## eddymac

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Whats up with Beasley?


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## NewAgeBaller

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



eddymac said:


> Whats up with Beasley?


He's been coming off the bench for us. His defence was a worry against the better forwards in the league, and our coach prefers him as an "offensive spark" off the bench. He's still playing a fair amount of minutes but far less than Rose/Mayo.

He can put up numbers but he's kind of inconsistent at times, and likes to score in spurts. He's had some great games but as many poor/average ones.

He's still figuring things out right now, like what he can get away with, how he needs to play (he's been driving more lately), etc.


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## MemphisX

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Mayo off to another fast start...


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## Nu_Omega

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Tough call between Rose and Mayo but Rose has the slight edge due to the lower expectations of him to perform when the season begins and he has so far exceeded most of them.


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## Diable

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

As a point guard I am not so sure that DJ Augustin isn't going to be better than Rose.He certainly has a much better grasp of the position and he's a vastly better shooter.He's probably been playing as well or better than any of the guys in the last three weeks.


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## BlakeJesus

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Diable said:


> As a point guard I am not so sure that DJ Augustin isn't going to be better than Rose.He certainly has a much better grasp of the position and he's a vastly better shooter.He's probably been playing as well or better than any of the guys in the last three weeks.


He really has been pretty amazing thus far, it's a shame he's not getting the same recognition as Rose. 

I'm still a strong believer in Mayo, I have a feeling he wins the award.


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## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Its a really strong draft class, and as a Nets fan I am really happy with all 3 picks. Rose and Mayo are far and away better than everyone else though *at this point in time.*


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## The Krakken

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



GregOden said:


> He really has been pretty amazing thus far, it's a shame he's not getting the same recognition as Rose.
> 
> I'm still a strong believer in Mayo, I have a feeling he wins the award.


Wrong and wrong. Keep sleeping on rose. Augustine is not getting the same recognition because he simply isn't playing as well, nor is he impacting the team wins and losses the way rose is. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Outside of 3 point % and ft% Augustine trails derrick rose in every single stat, including PER. Rose is shooting nearly 50% from the field and nearly 7% higher overall from the field. The focus of defenses has shifted from stopping Ben Gordon to stopping Rose in just 21 short games. Actually it happened long before that. Augustine is NOT at any point, the primary focus of the other teams defensive strategy.


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## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



MemphisX said:


> I expect Oden to have a great 2nd half.


I also expect him to really step up after the all-star break. He has too many variables working against him right now. He is trying to find his role on a *good* team, which is difficult as it is, but on top of that he is a 20 year big man coming off of a surgery that takes weeks and weeks of actual serious playing time to recover fully from. As soon as he realizes how good he is, and how big and athletic he is, and what he needs to do for his team, he is going to be scary good. Right now he is a step slow, a little wet behind the ears and just a little too humble out there. 

Oden won't be in the race though, because even at his best this year, his numbers won't look amazing. 

I think Rose is running away with the award. Kid is special.


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## Basel

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Tomorrow night the Bulls will face the Grizzlies and people can see Rose vs. Mayo for the 2nd time.


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## Mr.Prince

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Tonight will be an interesting game to watch, when Rose and Mayo go up against each other.
Wrote a little preview here.

I also have to agree with the Krakken, Augustine is putting up nice numbers and looks pretty good, but he pales in comparison to Rose. When you watch the Bulls games, you can see that Rose always has defenses paying close attetion to him, and they always have help ready in case Rose decides to drive, because they know they can't stop him one on one.


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## Kuskid

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

I think that's the biggest thing Rose has going for him right now. We're a month and a half in, and it's already clear to everybody that he's the man in Chicago, not just for the future, but right now. And on top of that, the team is on pace to finish considerably better than it did last year.


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## Dee-Zy

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Why is this a sticky?


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## GrandKenyon6

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Derrick Rose is an absolute lock for this award.


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## GNG

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Augustin apparently isn't even good enough for people to bother to spell his name right.


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## GNG

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Dee-Zy said:


> Why is this a sticky?


Because I stickied it.

Before the sticky, it got 10 posts and fell off the front page. Now it has double that amount, and with Mayo vs. Rose tonight, I feel like this is a pertinent topic.


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## GNG

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

FWIW, OJ Mayo is leading Rose in eight statistical categories, including scoring average, rebounds, steals, field goals made, three-pointers made, three-point percentage, free throws made and free throw percentage.

Rose leads in assists, field goal percentage and minutes per game.


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## E.H. Munro

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Dee-Zy said:


> Why is this a sticky?


Because Cinco de Mayo rubbed one out all over the thread. :bsmile:


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## RSP83

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Cinco de Mayo said:


> FWIW, OJ Mayo is leading Rose in eight statistical categories, including scoring average, rebounds, steals, field goals made, three-pointers made, three-point percentage, free throws made and free throw percentage.
> 
> Rose leads in assists, field goal percentage and minutes per game.


OJ Mayo has been killing it this season. I'm impressed with the guy as much as I'm impressed with Rose. Statwise, OJ is making a case for himself to win the ROY.

Rose gets more exposure because of the Bulls record and Chicago being a big market. But don't get me wrong Rose have been the most valuable player for the Bulls. The Bulls wouldn't even be close to their current record if not because of Rose.

Tonight's matchup between Bulls vs. Grizzlies should be fun to watch. I expect OJ to come out fired up. and it's interesting to see how Rose react. Rose been passive the last few games and only aggressive when he sees his teammates' shots are not falling.


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## GNG

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

If Mayo scores in double figures tonight, that makes it 23-straight games to start his career.

That would pass up Alonzo Mourning and tie Mayo with Dikembe Mutombo for the sixth-longest double-figure streak to start an NBA career in the last 30 years. Mayo recently moved past Magic Johnson (21) and Larry Bird (20) on that list.


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## Mr.Prince

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Cinco de Mayo said:


> If Mayo scores in double figures tonight, that makes it 23-straight games to start his career.
> 
> That would pass up Alonzo Mourning and tie Mayo with Dikembe Mutombo for the sixth-longest double-figure streak to start an NBA career in the last 30 years. Mayo recently moved past Magic Johnson (21) and Larry Bird (20) on that list.


That's actually pretty impressive.
I'm really pumped for the game now, it's gonna be a good one, I hope the two will go right at each other and deliver a game to remember, this could be the s tart of a nice 'rivalry'


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## Idunkonyou

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Mayo or Rose right now. Oden isn't even in the running. He has been hurt, inconsistent and sometimes downright horrible.


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## Vermillion

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

The Rose/Mayo race...similar to the Lebron/Melo ROY race? (though Rose has the better team record).

I'm glad Mayo is killing stuff, but right now the ROY is Derrick'sto lose. What scares me about him is the sheer efficiency of his game, I would have thought he would be spectacular, but error-prone, especially as a rookie.


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## Nu_Omega

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Oden will need time, Dwight, Yao and Bynum will be the main big men of the league for the time being.


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## MemphisX

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Vermillion said:


> The Rose/Mayo race...similar to the Lebron/Melo ROY race? (though Rose has the better team record).
> 
> I'm glad Mayo is killing stuff, but right now the ROY is Derrick'sto lose. What scares me about him is the sheer efficiency of his game, I would have thought he would be spectacular, but error-prone, especially as a rookie.


Rose's team isn't doing much better.


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## JerryWest

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Glad people are starting to see things my way. I've been saying since before the draft

1) Rose

2) Mayo

I guess the Beasley jockers finally gave up


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## The Krakken

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Cinco de Mayo said:


> FWIW, OJ Mayo is leading Rose in eight statistical categories, including scoring average, rebounds, steals, *field goals made, three-pointers made,* three-point percentage, free throws made and free throw percentage.
> 
> Rose leads in assists, field goal percentage and minutes per game.


Those two shouldn't even count. Especially given that Rose is shooting a higher percentage from the field than Mayo. All that shows is that Mayo shoots more.

Mayo also leads in turnovers.

As for scoring average. It isn't significant, when you factor in the BIG assist advantage that Rose has.

Put another way, Ben Gordon leads rose in those exact same categories, for the exact same reasons. But you'll be hard pressed to find a GM around the league or even a bulls fan in the league that would take Ben Gordon over Rose.


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## The Krakken

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Mr.Prince said:


> Tonight will be an interesting game to watch, when Rose and Mayo go up against each other.
> Wrote a little preview here.
> 
> I also have to agree with the Krakken, Augustine is putting up nice numbers and looks pretty good, but he pales in comparison to Rose. When you watch the Bulls games, you can see that Rose always has defenses paying close attetion to him, and they always have help ready in case Rose decides to drive, because they know they can't stop him one on one.


Both performed below my expectations. Rose less so.


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## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



> Put another way, Ben Gordon leads rose in those exact same categories, for the exact same reasons. But you'll be hard pressed to find a GM around the league or even a bulls fan in the league that would take Ben Gordon over Rose.


Except for the fact that Mayo is a rookie averaging 20 + ppg, and when you factor that in, you would think by the time he has spent the 4 or so seasons Gordon has in the league, he will be doing much better.


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## GNG

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



The Krakken said:


> Those two shouldn't even count. Especially given that Rose is shooting a higher percentage from the field than Mayo. All that shows is that Mayo shoots more.
> 
> Mayo also leads in turnovers.
> 
> As for scoring average. It isn't significant, when you factor in the BIG assist advantage that Rose has.


Just statin' the facts, kiddo. Just statin' the facts.


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## Diable

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Sloth is still a bull's fan...If he wasn't banned we could could ask him if Gordon is better than Rose


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## The Krakken

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> Except for the fact that Mayo is a rookie averaging 20 + ppg, and when you factor that in, you would think by the time he has spent the 4 or so seasons Gordon has in the league, he will be doing much better.


If that's the argument then we can extrapolate the same thing about Rose. Rose's PPG numbers are not SIGNIFICANLTY lower than Mayos. However, his assist totals are more than DOUBLE that of Mayo.


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## The Krakken

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Cinco de Mayo said:


> Just statin' the facts, kiddo. Just statin' the facts.


Then state them all. That's all I'm saying. Rose has better TO numbers, better assist/to numbers, better FG%, better +/-....etc.

Mayo has 50 more shot attempts and nearly 75 more 3 pt attempts. He averages 1 TO for every assist. In fact, he might be averaging more TO's than assists.

We can go back and forth on this.


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## Mr.Prince

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



The Krakken said:


> Both performed below my expectations. Rose less so.


Yeah I expected more out of the game too, I was kind of disappointed, but it was still an interesting game.
Wrote this in my blog:


> So the game I talked about last night wasn’t as thrilling as I expected. Although it was a good contest, which the Grizzlies ended up winning 103 to 96, it wasn’t the rookie showdown I wanted to see:
> 
> Mayo finished the game with 14 points, 3 assists and 2 rebounds, while Rose came up with 12 points and 11 assists, the second time he got 10 assists or more and his 3rd double-double of the season.
> 
> Although the two didn’t deliver huge performances, there were still a couple of things to notice in this game:
> 
> * Even though he tried, Mayo really struggled on defense against Ben Gordon. He wasn’t able to keep up with Ben running through screens off the ball at all, and Gordon lit him up for 18 points in the first quarter before getting into foul trouble.
> 
> * Mayo still has to work on his shot selection. We all know the guy has a beautiful stroke and he can get any shot he wants, but that doesn’t mean he should take just any shot. He is often taking some ill advised, heavily contested jumpers and he’s missed the most of his jump-shots, with the majority of his points coming off drives and at the free throw line.
> 
> * Rose on the other hand should look to shoot the ball more than he does, while he did take as many shots as O.J. Mayo, he was still playing too unselfish. He passed up a lot of good shots by kicking the ball out on drives or simply deciding no to take the jumper. What’s so bad about this is the fact that whenever Rose does actually want to score nothing can keep him from getting to the basket, as he often shows late in games.
> .....
> ...
> continue reading


But there will be another exciting game on tonight, when the Bulls take on the Nets, looking forward to Harris vs. Rose, two of the fastest players in the league going up against each other, but that doesn't belong here.

Btw.: Doesn't Rose's maturity level and the way he carries himself on the court (not the way he plays) remind anyone else of Brandon ROY as a rookie?


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## Boob-No-More

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Basel said:


> A great 2nd half only won't get you the Rookie of the Year award.


Actually, players who start slow and finish strong do better in ROY voting than players who start strong and then fade.

It's a long season and we're only a little over 1/4 through it. Some rookies will hit the wall, fatigue will set in and their production will taper off. These guys aren't used to playing an 82-game schedule. Also, opposing teams will adjust their game plans to try to stop the better rookies.

Clearly Rose and Mayo are the leading contenders at this point, but Oden is picking it up. He's cutting down on the fouls and getting more minutes as a result (42 minutes with 2 fouls and 32 minutes with 3 fouls in his last two games). Obviously, Oden got off to a slow start due to injuries and being unable to play competitive basketball for 18 months. His production should continue to increase as he gets into shape, gets more confidence in his surgically repaired knee, gets used to the speed of the NBA game and gets used to playing with his teammates.

Will his increased PT and production be enough to catch guys like Rose and Mayo? Hard to say at this point. Will Mayo continue to average 20 PPG over an 82 game schedule, or will his performance taper off? If so, by how much? What if Mayo ends up averaging 18.5 PPG and Oden is at 14.5 PPG, 11 RPG and 2 BPG - and the Blazers win 50+ games and the Grizz win 20 something? Who would be the more deserving ROY? Ditto for Rose (I think he's the odds on favorite at this point). What if his performance tapers off in the 2nd half as Oden's is increasing. What if the Bulls miss the play-offs? Will that hurt Rose's chances vs. Oden?

Historically, team performance isn't much of a factor in ROY voting. By the very nature of the NBA draft, most high draft picks end up on crappy teams. A high individual scoring average tends to attract a disproportional amount of ROY votes. Adam Morrison had an abysmal rookie year, but because he scored 11.8 PPG he finished 4th in ROY voting. Better overall production can overcome a lower scoring average, as was the case in 2002-2003 when Amare Stoudamire won ROY with a scoring average of 13.5 PPG, Yao Ming came in second in the voting and also averaged 13.5 PPG and Caron Butler lead all rookies in scoring at 15.4 PPG, but come in third in the ROY voting.

Oden won't lead rookies in scoring this year, but if he can get his scoring average up to the same 13 - 14 PPG range as Amare and Yao, he'll be in the conversation due to his defense, rebounding and over all impact.

BNM


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## NewAgeBaller

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Well Mayo had another nice game tonight. Same with Beasley.

* Going off boxscore anyway..


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## Priest

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

28 5 and 5 from mayo today going against wade..nice game


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## GNG

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Mayo dominated tonight on offense tonight and played a large part in holding the league's leading scorer to his second-worst scoring night of the season.

Beasley had a nice first half and then kind of disappeared in the second as Memphis pulled away. He didn't necessarily have a _great_ game, but he seemed to be a step ahead of anyone the Grizzlies matched up against him in the first half (15 points).


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## GNG

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Boob-No-More said:


> It's a long season and we're only a little over 1/4 through it. Some rookies will hit the wall, fatigue will set in and their production will taper off. These guys aren't used to playing an 82-game schedule. Also, opposing teams will adjust their game plans to try to stop the better rookies.
> 
> Clearly Rose and Mayo are the leading contenders at this point, but Oden is picking it up. He's cutting down on the fouls and getting more minutes as a result (42 minutes with 2 fouls and 32 minutes with 3 fouls in his last two games). Obviously, Oden got off to a slow start due to injuries and being unable to play competitive basketball for 18 months. His production should continue to increase as he gets into shape, gets more confidence in his surgically repaired knee, gets used to the speed of the NBA game and gets used to playing with his teammates.
> 
> Will his increased PT and production be enough to catch guys like Rose and Mayo? Hard to say at this point. Will Mayo continue to average 20 PPG over an 82 game schedule, or will his performance taper off? If so, by how much? What if Mayo ends up averaging 18.5 PPG and Oden is at 14.5 PPG, 11 RPG and 2 BPG - and the Blazers win 50+ games and the Grizz win 20 something? Who would be the more deserving ROY?


Considering, as you noted, we're a quarter of the way through the year, Oden's going to have to have some AMAZING statlines to raise his averages up to 14/11.


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## Boob-No-More

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Cinco de Mayo said:


> Considering, as you noted, we're a quarter of the way through the year, Oden's going to have to have some AMAZING statlines to raise his averages up to 14/11.


Due to the opening night foot injury, Oden has played in fewer games than the other leading rookies. So, his current low per game averages will be easier to bring up. He will also be getting more minutes as he continues to get in better shape and cut down on his fouls (as I mentioned in my previous post, in his last two games he's played 42 minutes with only two fouls and 32 minutes with 3 fouls). 

In the games he's played at least 25 minutes, Oden is averaging 12.7 PPG and 11 RPG. So, I don't think 14/11 is out of reach as he continues to get more PT and continues to improve. 

He's still playing his way into game shape after 18 months away from competitive basketball. The more he plays, the better he'll get. Unlike most rookies that played in college or Europe last season, plus a full summer league (or Olympics), Oden needs more time to get in game shape, adjust to the NBA game and get back the explosiveness he lost after microfracture surgery.

BNM


----------



## King Joseus

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Quick math says he'll need to average 16 and 12 the rest of the way to reach 14/11 (on the dot). I think the rebounding numbers are more attainable than the scoring.


----------



## Marcus13

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Id just like to take a moment to smh at the T-Wolves


----------



## Priest

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

LMAO if u go to different timberwolves forums there a re a lot of people who are still in denial about the trade. they pull up combined stats of miller and love to prove the trade is helping them out...SMH!!!


----------



## Boob-No-More

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



King Joseus said:


> Quick math says he'll need to average 16 and 12 the rest of the way to reach 14/11 (on the dot). I think the rebounding numbers are more attainable than the scoring.


Agreed. For the season, he's averaging 12.5/12.3 per 36 minutes. So, if he continues to get minutes like he has been recently, averaging 11 RPG for the season is certainly doable.

He'll obviously need to pick up his scoring considerably, but that's the area of his game with the most room for improvement. I'd also like to see the Blazers integrate him more into their offense. Now that he's starting, it would be nice to see them run a few designed plays for him. He still gets most of his points off broken plays and put backs.

BNM


----------



## MrJayremmie

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

I think Greg Oden will average a double double by the end of teh year. But I don't think he is in the discussion right now for ROY.

Mayo and Rose are amazing.


----------



## bball2223

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Mayo played ok last night. Augustin outplayed Rose (badly) in the Chicago/Charlotte Matchup last night. I would rank them like this:

1. Rose
2. Mayo
3. Augustin










Everyone else.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

I am still trying to find the logical argument for Rose over Mayo at this point. I just don't see it. All people point to is assists.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Well isn't that good enough?


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

The guy that's been supring me the most is Augustin. I knew that Rose and Mayo would be great and be the favorites for ROY, (although i had no idea that they would be this good this fast) but Augustin has been playing terrificly for the Bobcats and i have no idea why he isn't starting.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



MemphisX said:


> I am still trying to find the logical argument for Rose over Mayo at this point. I just don't see it. All people point to is assists.


Statistically, that's the big difference. They're almost identical statistically outside of assists. That difference is pretty reflective of their abilities. Mayo has been a slightly better scorer but Rose has been a much better playmaker/passer. That's why people see Rose as the better player right now.


----------



## Dre

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

This is irrelevant, but when I watch Rose I think he's capable of penetrating straight through a brick wall and keeping his dribble for a dunk, he's that explosive. I don't think there's a more exciting player to watch just based on sheer explosion besides Lebron. 

He reminds me of a prime Steve Francis in that regard.


----------



## Diable

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



VanillaPrice said:


> The guy that's been supring me the most is Augustin. I knew that Rose and Mayo would be great and be the favorites for ROY, (although i had no idea that they would be this good this fast) but Augustin has been playing terrificly for the Bobcats and i have no idea why he isn't starting.


Mostly it's because DJ has been turning the ball over a bit too much,but also Felton has had a pretty decent season.It could be that they would like to see Raymond build up his value for a trade,but he's really been pretty good.DJ's getting good minutes and he's getting plenty of oppurtunities to demonstrate his abilities.Starting is not that big a deal really...DJ is on the floor at the end(unless the cats are getting stomped)The two of them are on the floor together a lot as well,which creates problems defensively,but they play well together too.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Statistically, that's the big difference. They're almost identical statistically outside of assists. That difference is pretty reflective of their abilities. Mayo has been a slightly better scorer but Rose has been a much better playmaker/passer. That's why people see Rose as the better player right now.



Is that due to performance or role though? I think Mayo will end up at over 3 assists per game but expecting a SG to get 5 or more assists is absurd. There are only 5 non-PGs averaging more than 5 assists per game.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



MemphisX said:


> Is that due to performance or role though? I think Mayo will end up at over 3 assists per game but expecting a SG to get 5 or more assists is absurd. There are only 5 non-PGs averaging more than 5 assists per game.


Well then that speaks to positional value, that a good point guard is more valuable than a good shooting guard. Although Mayo may do everything his position demands, Rose does _more_ than his position demands by being an explosive scorer as well as a good distributor and playmaker.


----------



## aussiestatman

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



The Krakken said:


> I have Rose, SLIGHTLY ahead of Mayo, due to his impact on team wins and losses. The bulls, without Rose, would be about 3-17, instead of 9-11. That's AT BEST. And that cannot be overstated. Rose has single-handedly won about 4-5 games for the bulls.
> 
> As for Oden, I just dont expect him to catch them this year. He'll have too many nights where he only plays 14 minutes due to him having 5 fouls. He'll have too many 4 point, 5 rebound and 5 foul type games.


5 foul games? how many has he had so far?
i think you underrate him, a bit like the mcmenimin guy on nba rookie rankings, outside the top 10 so far


----------



## aussiestatman

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



PauloCatarino said:


> Oden? Why?


ask again in february when he is dominating opposing centres and his stat line reads more like 17/12 and 2 or 3 blocks


----------



## aussiestatman

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Blue Magic said:


> Yeah, why is Oden still in the discusion? In the 1st post you say Beasley isnt getting the minutes to win the award, but then proceed top Oden in your top 3 when he is getting less minutes than Beasley?? :thinking2: In all honesty, Fernandez is the best rookie in Portland @ this point.
> 
> @ this point I would say overall:
> 
> 1) D. Rose
> 2) OJ Mayo
> 3) Brooklyn Lopez
> 4) Russel Westbrook
> 5) Rudy Fernandez
> 6) DJ Augustine
> 7) Beasley
> 8) Love
> 9) Super Mario
> 10)Thompson/Gasol


ditto the previous reply


----------



## aussiestatman

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Basel said:


> A great 2nd half only won't get you the Rookie of the Year award.


it will if you put up numbers that put you in the top 5 rebounders and blockers in the league


----------



## aussiestatman

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



GrandKenyon6 said:


> Derrick Rose is an absolute lock for this award.


the season runs 5 months, i think you've gone off a bit early


----------



## aussiestatman

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Boob-No-More said:


> Actually, players who start slow and finish strong do better in ROY voting than players who start strong and then fade.
> 
> It's a long season and we're only a little over 1/4 through it. Some rookies will hit the wall, fatigue will set in and their production will taper off. These guys aren't used to playing an 82-game schedule. Also, opposing teams will adjust their game plans to try to stop the better rookies.
> 
> Clearly Rose and Mayo are the leading contenders at this point, but Oden is picking it up. He's cutting down on the fouls and getting more minutes as a result (42 minutes with 2 fouls and 32 minutes with 3 fouls in his last two games). Obviously, Oden got off to a slow start due to injuries and being unable to play competitive basketball for 18 months. His production should continue to increase as he gets into shape, gets more confidence in his surgically repaired knee, gets used to the speed of the NBA game and gets used to playing with his teammates.
> 
> Will his increased PT and production be enough to catch guys like Rose and Mayo? Hard to say at this point. Will Mayo continue to average 20 PPG over an 82 game schedule, or will his performance taper off? If so, by how much? What if Mayo ends up averaging 18.5 PPG and Oden is at 14.5 PPG, 11 RPG and 2 BPG - and the Blazers win 50+ games and the Grizz win 20 something? Who would be the more deserving ROY? Ditto for Rose (I think he's the odds on favorite at this point). What if his performance tapers off in the 2nd half as Oden's is increasing. What if the Bulls miss the play-offs? Will that hurt Rose's chances vs. Oden?
> 
> Historically, team performance isn't much of a factor in ROY voting. By the very nature of the NBA draft, most high draft picks end up on crappy teams. A high individual scoring average tends to attract a disproportional amount of ROY votes. Adam Morrison had an abysmal rookie year, but because he scored 11.8 PPG he finished 4th in ROY voting. Better overall production can overcome a lower scoring average, as was the case in 2002-2003 when Amare Stoudamire won ROY with a scoring average of 13.5 PPG, Yao Ming came in second in the voting and also averaged 13.5 PPG and Caron Butler lead all rookies in scoring at 15.4 PPG, but come in third in the ROY voting.
> 
> Oden won't lead rookies in scoring this year, but if he can get his scoring average up to the same 13 - 14 PPG range as Amare and Yao, he'll be in the conversation due to his defense, rebounding and over all impact.
> 
> BNM


this makes a lot more sense to me than most of the previous posts


----------



## aussiestatman

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

mayo v augustin today, should be a treat


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Mayo's run at double diget points ended last night, oh well it was a good run while it lasted...

that being said
1. Rose
2. Mayo
3. Augustin
4. Beasley
5. Westbrook


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Mayo's played like crap 2 out of the last 3 games and it seems like Rose is distancing himself a little bit.


----------



## King Joseus

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Rose hasn't been too hot lately either...


----------



## GNG

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



VanillaPrice said:


> Mayo's played like crap 2 out of the last 3 games and it seems like Rose is distancing himself a little bit.


If you mean the difference between a 10-point game and a seven-point game, then yes, Rose is distancing himself.

Just give him the award now.


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



VanillaPrice said:


> Mayo's run at double diget points ended last night, oh well it was a good run while it lasted...
> 
> that being said
> 1. Rose
> 2. Mayo
> 3. Augustin
> 4. Beasley
> 5. Westbrook


I really like this list, though there is a pretty distant gap between 3 and 4 IMO.


----------



## Diable

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

I really can't help thinking about the backlash when I said the bobcats should take Durant over Oden if they won the lottery.At the time I really expected Oden to be much better than he has been so far,it was just that Durant was a much better fit for Charlotte's needs.In particular they needed a star...Someone who'd get some star treatment from the refs and generate some excitement for the franchise.At this point I don't know if Oden is still hampered by the microfracture or if he's just not going to make the impact people expected him to make.Defense and rebounding are damned nice,but the guy was picked number one...It just doesn't seem like he's good enough to live up to that billing right now.Joel Pryzbilla has been a good deal better and the blazer fans have spent the last couple of years dreaming up scenarios to dump him and his contract.


----------



## theEnforcer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

One constantly improving rookie is Russell Westbrook, who is now next in line after Mayo and Rose.
Oden has had 5-6 fouls in 8 of 23 games; now averaging over 6 /36 min.


----------



## HKF

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Oden is 20 year old true center. Repeat after me, Greg Oden is a 20 year old true center. Patience. He's not going to win the rookie of the year, but the tools are there to be great. The injury sucks for him but bigs are always gonna favor injuries. Just look at how Bynum is playing. He's still favoring his knee as well.


----------



## Diable

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Outside of Lakers fans noone ever acted like bynum was going to be a top player in the league.People were all over the place with bynum,but noone ever thought he'd be great.Oden has been compared to bill russell since he was 15 or 16 years old


----------



## HKF

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

I have thought the world of Oden for years, but that didn't mean I expected him to be Lebron James of centers at 20. I expect him to be much better during his second season. I don't even worry about a rookie year anymore.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Oden has a lot of things working against him right now. Once those things disappear one by one, we will see the kind of NBA player he is going to be. This definitely isn't it. 

Once he gets used to the physicality of being a big man in the league (with fouling and such), and once he works that knee back into full form, and once he gets back into playing shape after taking a year off, and once he starts to grasp his role and what Nate wants him to do on an already really good team, he will be highly effective I think.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

I have no worries about Oden being a stud. Him being a bust would be a bigger shock to me than Adam Morrison becoming an All Star.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



MemphisX said:


> I have no worries about Oden being a stud. Him being a bust would be a bigger shock to me than Adam Morrison becoming an [strike]All Star[/strike] NBA starter.


Corrected.


----------



## JT

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

man I love watching OJ Mayo play. the guy is like a young Kobe, minus a bit of quickness and length. he will be the RoY, and better than Oden in the future as well.


----------



## Basel

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Yeah, I've also compared him to a miniature version of Kobe - he's going to be a great player in the NBA for long time, in my opinion, and will ultimately be the best player to come out of his draft.


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

I was at the Hawks-Bulls game last night and Rose played phenomonal, 27,4,7 and played decent D on Bibby more the most part.

Mayo also had a great game last night, it's crazy the Grizz and Bulls need these guys to have great nights just for them to be contention.


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Rose completly outplayed Devin Harris today, who is currently the best point in the east.

Westbrook is beastin' it right now to.


----------



## Blue

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



VanillaPrice said:


> Rose completly outplayed Devin Harris today, who is currently the best point in the east.
> 
> Westbrook is beastin' it right now to.


According to folks on here Westbrook is an NBDL player....  

I agree tho, Westbrook is a beast on both ends of the court. He seems to always play well against PHX....31/3/5 is impressive, i donk care who you are, and the kid is only a rookie.


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Yeah i really don't understand the hate the kid gets, i mean sure he's inefficient but once he starts getting those star calls and develops a better jumper this dude is going to be insane.


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

O.J. really struggled tonight, going 4-20 in a blowout loss to the suns.


----------



## Accelerate

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

How about last night's Nets-Grizzlies game? Three of the top five rookies in Lopez, Gasol and Mayo?

Mayo, as expected, was clearly the best first-year player out there, being one of the only players competing out there for Memphis. One of the few times I've gotten to see him play an entire game this year and I was very impressed with his with a larger defender on him. He lead all scorers. I believe he was also playing hurt and was a game-time decision?

Gasol had some post moves. I was surprised at how agile he was despite his size and his post moves were impressive. Head-to-head, you had to give this one to Brook, though.

Brook showed off his versatility by hitting a couple of mid-range jumpers. After a quiet game against the Kings and the embarrassing Heat game where he was swatted by Dwyane Wade twice at crucial points in the game, it showed he was more aggressive down low, making sure to slam one home enthusiastically when possible. Five blocks, including one on Gasol after a series of fakes. Brook also played eight less minutes than Gasol. He got more touches as Devin didn't play.

MAYO: 26 pts (9-20 FG, 4-8 3FG, 4-5 FT), 4 rebs, 3 asts
GASOL: 14 pts (6-9 FG, 2-4 FT), 10 rebs, 3 stls
LOPEZ: 17 pts (8-11 FG, 1-1 FT), 8 rebs, 5 blks

Yes, I am only bringing this up since Brook played well and I'm a Nets fan, hence the more elaborate notes on Brook.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Mayo is a bonafied scorer, Rose is a do it all type of point. 

As for Brook, the more I watch him, the more he reminds me of Gasol. Oden shouldn't even be in this conversation, the top 3 rookies have been Rose, Mayo and Lopez.


----------



## Diable

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

You must be the first person to call robin lopez a ROY candidate.Personally I just don't see it


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Lame! Guess you missed the first part of my post where I said Brook or better yet the post preceeding it that talked about Brook Lopez. Dont know you got Robin Lopez from all that. Nice try though.

As for the ROY its a two man race between Rose and Mayo.


----------



## Priest

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

ill admit I was on the hate band wagon for Westbrook. His growth as a pg since last til now amazes me. Gordan has been playing well lately also, a matter of fact this whole class from top to bottom is impressive IMO and potentially better then the 03 class.


----------



## Blue

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

^ I tried to told em. My boy Westbrook has been killin it all year. He had 16pts & 12assits last night and only 2 turnovers in 29 minutes against Minny.


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Blue Magic said:


> ^ I tried to told em. My boy Westbrook has been killin it all year. He had 16pts & 12assits last night and only 2 turnovers in 29 minutes against Minny.


We seem to be the only ones giving him his props, clearly the third best rookie so far. (and climbing.)


----------



## croco

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Blue Magic said:


> ^ I tried to told em. My boy Westbrook has been killin it all year. He had 16pts & 12assits last night and only 2 turnovers in 29 minutes against Minny.


"killin" is the right term 

He has been much better as of late, gotta give him credit for that. Now he needs to find out that he is still using too many possessions and learn how to play the point.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

I overlooked Westbrook. He's playing better than I expected


----------



## Priest

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

I still feel that the race will come dwn to rose and mayo. And I still believe mayo should play pg. Yeah he only averages 3 assist per but lowry averages 4


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

^ That would take away from Mayo's scoring, which is his strong suit if he had to be the falicitator for that team. He's never going to be an elite passer/playmaker, but he will probobly be an elite scorer, so why would you want to take him out of his element?


----------



## The Krakken

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

He'll be an elite scorer in the same mold as Ben Gordon. In the same mold as Michael Redd used to be. I'm not sure that's all he should be. He's capable of more.


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

^ He's already more efficient, better passer, and a better defender then those two. I wasn't saying never let Mayo run the offense, but just don't make him the falicitator full time, because his strong suit is scoring the basketball, plain and simple.


----------



## Smez86

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

_More_ efficient how? Cause it's not by TS% or EFG% or PER or APG.


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

^ Look at there rookie years?


----------



## mynetsforlife

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Lopez or bust.


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Another guy that i'm interested in is this Courtney Lee kid, he seems to have really high Basketball IQ, plays good defense and is pretty efficient.

It's a shame people like Redick are stealing his minutes.


----------



## Blue

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

^ I agree, but Redick has really been playing well the last couple games too. We got soo many scorers on the Magic right now it's Redickulous(pun intended). Pretty much everyone on the team not named Dwight Howard can shoot. Lee and Redick both have a good case for that starting SG spot right now. Both are smart players and both are shooting the ball well. I would give Lee the edge becuase of his 'D' though, and then bring in JJ as a spark of the bench, ala Vujacic. There's a lotta talent on this team tho, and when MP comes back, he brings a whole nother level of athleticism to the backcourt. Very good team though and Lee is gonna be a solid player.


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Yeah the Magic are one of my favorite teams in the league ( I lived in Orlando during the T-mac days and a little Magic craze rubbed off on me I guess) and Courtney Lee to me looks like a stud, maybe not All-Star potential but a very very good player to have on a pretty loaded team.


----------



## GrandKenyon6

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Let's replace Oden with Lopez in this discussion.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

^I remember saying that in another thread and I was called a homer lol


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Rose with another terrific game last night, 25/2/10 on great percentages.

Westbrook also with a nice game 22/4/7 on good percentages aswell

Beasley also dropped a really efficient 23 last night in a win, but only grabbed four boards, still though he seems to be turning the corner.


----------



## The Krakken

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



VanillaPrice said:


> Rose with another terrific game last night, 25/2/10 on great percentages.
> 
> Westbrook also with a nice game 22/4/7 on good percentages aswell
> 
> Beasley also dropped a really efficient 23 last night in a win, but only grabbed four boards, still though he seems to be turning the corner.


Yeah, Rose's assist numbers are up in January.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Tonight there was a Bayless sighting...

20/3/3 and good play in the clutch.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Brook Lopez also went up against Greg Oden in that game, and outplayed him.


----------



## Diable

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

WHy didn't Oden play more in that game?Or are his minutes in the boxscore incorrect?


Frankly I just haven't been blown away by any of these guys.I still don't see Rose being a great point guard.Still looks like a combo guard whenever I watch him play.I think Mayo can score,but hell lots of guys can score if you give them enough shots.I don't know if he's going to become an efficient scorer,looks like a 50-50 proposition.

Right now I think Westbrook might end up better than both of them,but that's not based on what is good about his game.In fact he's a very inefficient player who uses the ball too much and does a lot of bad things.However he could get better.The bad stuff he does is the stuff coaches are paid to correct.He's not a good point guard now and he's never going to be a great point guard IMO,but he has so much room to improve in this area that he could end up being a very good player.


----------



## CPIII

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Rose just added a few more reasons why he's in the #1 spot for Rookie of the Year. 

You don't see any other rookie taking the leadership like he does, and turning it into success. 

Good strong finish tonight, when it mattered.


----------



## Boob-No-More

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



MemphisX said:


> Tonight there was a Bayless sighting...
> 
> 20/3/3 and good play in the clutch.


Actually, Bayless scored 23, not 20. And yes, he was big in the clutch. He scored 11 in the 4th quarter to help the Blazers get the come-from-behind win and shot 11-11 FTs for the game. He was able to get to the rim and get to the line. 5 of his 6 FGs were on lay-ups or dunks and he had two and-1 three-point plays in the 4th quarter.

This is what Portland fans have been hoping for ever since watching Bayless light it up in summer league. Yeah, I know, it was summer league, but the kid obviously has talent. Until Blake's injury he hasn't gotten consistent minutes (or hardly any minutes at all). He stunk it up in Philly pretty bad the night before, but with a clearly defined role against NJ, he was able to show what he can do.

With Blake out, Portland now has FOUR rookies getting significant minutes. I can't remember the last time a play-off team had four rookies in the regular rotation.

BNM


----------



## Dornado

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Boob-No-More said:


> Actually, Bayless scored 23, not 20. And yes, he was big in the clutch. He scored 11 in the 4th quarter to help the Blazers get the come-from-behind win and shot 11-11 FTs for the game. He was able to get to the rim and get to the line. 5 of his 6 FGs were on lay-ups or dunks and he had two and-1 three-point plays in the 4th quarter.
> 
> This is what Portland fans have been hoping for ever since watching Bayless light it up in summer league. Yeah, I know, it was summer league, but the kid obviously has talent. Until Blake's injury he hasn't gotten consistent minutes (or hardly any minutes at all). He stunk it up in Philly pretty bad the night before, but with a clearly defined role against NJ, he was able to show what he can do.
> 
> With Blake out, Portland now has FOUR rookies getting significant minutes. * I can't remember the last time a play-off team had four rookies in the regular rotation.
> *
> BNM



Well, the '04/'05 Bulls, for one.


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Wow Brook Lopez went to town on the Celtics today, 28 and 10.

Is it just me or for some unexplained reason everyone just stopped talking about O.J. Mayo?


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



aussiestatman said:


> ask again in february when he is dominating opposing centres and his stat line reads more like 17/12 and 2 or 3 blocks


So how is your prediction going so far? Its getting close to February...


----------



## Diable

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

I see how Bayless scores so much...he seems to have religious objections to passing the ball


----------



## GNG

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



VanillaPrice said:


> Wow Brook Lopez went to town on the Celtics today, 28 and 10.
> 
> Is it just me or for some unexplained reason everyone just stopped talking about O.J. Mayo?


The city he plays in has less than a million people, and the team that plays in that city blows cows.


----------



## Boob-No-More

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Diable said:


> I see how Bayless scores so much...he seems to have religious objections to passing the ball


Is that astute observation based on watching him play exactly one time?

AST/36:

Jerryd Bayless - 3.9
DJ Augustin - 4.1

I thought Augustin was supposed to be a "pure" PG and Bayless a combo guard. Doesn't look like much difference in their passing abilities to me.

BNM


----------



## Diable

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/stati...split=0&season=2009&seasontype=2&avg=48&pos=r

Try again.DJ has 151 assists.He averages 4.1 per game as a back up and 6.9 per 48 minutes.Bayless has 21 assists or 4.5 per 48 minutes.He also has 21 turnovers


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Yeah really poor argument BNM, you dont even need stats to know that Bayless is a gunner. Then again, can you blame him? He only gets a chance to play once in every blue moon.


----------



## Najee

*GREG ODEN WATCH:*

7.9 points, 6.8 rebounds and 1.1 blocks per game. Shooting .527 FG and .638 FT. Occasionally will have a standout game but is in frequent foul trouble (he fouled out Jan. 17 vs. Chicago in only 18 minutes of action). Still showing he's injury-prone.

I can see where people can see his promise, but overall I find him to be as unimpressive in the NBA as I did in his one year at Ohio State.


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Beasley with a really mediocore night, 4/10 shooting, 11 points, one assist, 0 rebounds.


----------



## Wade County

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Beasleys line was 4 and 4 in 9 mins. Foul trouble plagued him. Bad night for him.


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

It's sort of ironic how Rose was supposed to come into the league and struggle, put up pretty normal numbers and take a while to adjust to the NBA, whereas Beasley was supposed to come in and dominate, get the ROY, and put up some really nice numbers.


----------



## Wade County

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Rose started out on fire. Hes cooled a bit, but hes good for anything between 15-20 and 5-8 assists per game right now.

Beasley is at 13 and 5 in 25 minutes. If he was playin the minutes Rose is - hed be at around 15-20, 6-9 rebounds per game. Defensively, hes got a ways to go - but the NBA's a tough place for a 20yr old big. He'll get there.


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

I hate that minute per game argument, I mean, if Beasley was good enough to play Rose's minutes, then he would play Rose's minutes, just because Miami is better then Chicago doesn't mean that Rose wouldn't be getting the exact same minutes as he is right now if he played in Miami.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Westbrook definitely deserves some mention because he can score the ball and defend pretty well. He is also just a great athlete. I think his problem will be finding a position because to me the only thing keeping him from being a shooting guard on both ends is about 3 inches, because he really plays much more like a shooting guard than a point guard. Of course, teams will always try to transform undersized shooting guards into point guards, but it's hardly ever successful.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Westbrook definitely deserves some mention because he can score the ball and defend pretty well. He is also just a great athlete. I think his problem will be finding a position because to me the only thing keeping him from being a shooting guard on both ends is about 3 inches, because he really plays much more like a shooting guard than a point guard.


and there's the whole not being able to shoot thing.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



VanillaPrice said:


> I hate that minute per game argument, I mean, if Beasley was good enough to play Rose's minutes, then he would play Rose's minutes, just because Miami is better then Chicago doesn't mean that Rose wouldn't be getting the exact same minutes as he is right now if he played in Miami.


Maybe but he sure wouldn't have the ball in his hands as much in Miami.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



rocketeer said:


> and there's the whole not being able to shoot thing.


Well Dwyane Wade is a really great shooting guard and he can't shoot either. Westbrook is a lot like Wade actually. He is a much better defender and obviously not nearly as gifted as a scorer, but the skillset is close. They are long and athletic shooting guards who are undersized and rely on getting to the hoop because they can't really shoot.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Well Dwyane Wade is a really great shooting guard and he can't shoot either. Westbrook is a lot like Wade actually. He is a much better defender and obviously not nearly as gifted as a scorer, but the skillset is close. They are long and athletic shooting guards who are undersized and rely on getting to the hoop because they can't really shoot.


you must mean that wade used to not be able to shoot, right?

wade from his rookie year and westbrook do have similar shooting numbers from any kind of range but one huge difference is that westbrook shoots under 50% from inside 7 feet while wade was just under 60%.

i'm not sure i'd say that's a good comparison really. wade has something like 30 pounds on westbrook and really is a sg where westbrook really is a guy that is stuck between positions.


----------



## HKF

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Oden had 24/15. He is garbage.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HKF said:


> Oden had 24/15. He is garbage.


against the bucks with no bogut.

the biggest difference really though was that the blazers made the effort to actively try to get him the ball. they tried some things they haven't been doing much like the high/low from aldridge and when the bucks went small, instead of taking oden out they let him punish the bucks inside. and really the gameplan every night should involve getting oden the ball in the paint because there aren't many teams out there that really have guys who can keep oden from getting where he wants to be in the paint.

i mean he abused brook lopez inside(and of course was lost on pick and roll defense on the other end) until the blazers just stopped passing to him and took him out of the game. not that that is really an accomplishment but some people seem to have decided that brook is the better player.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Well comparisons aside I don't think Westbrook has any problems defending shooting guards because of his length as well as his toughness and refusal to get pushed around. His rebounding numbers show that he is physical enough to hold his own against much bigger players. Offensively he is clearly a shooting guard to me. I think through and through that should be his position and trying to make him a point guard is just going to confuse their lineup.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Those dunks by Oden looked prime Shaq-like. I know this is most likely just one of those flash games that we'll see a few times this year, but man I wish he could keep this up.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



VanillaPrice said:


> I hate that minute per game argument, I mean, if Beasley was good enough to play Rose's minutes, then he would play Rose's minutes, just because Miami is better then Chicago doesn't mean that Rose wouldn't be getting the exact same minutes as he is right now if he played in Miami.


I'm sure if Rose had players the caliber of Marion & Haslem in front of him he'd have a tougher time gaining starter minutes too (not that Haslem's amazing, but we've been over that enough times on the topic - he's perhaps similar to the Bulls' Hinrich?).

(^ anyway not here to argue that, just pointing it out again)

The "If Rose were on the Heat.." argument doesn't really hold either cause our PG crop is one of the weakest in the league and one of our most irrelevant positions (aside from the breakout of Chalmers).

But anyway, like MemphisX said, he might still get minutes but his numbers would probably all be down from a much lower usage rate next to Wade. We might even bring him off the bench as our second unit really needs scoring/playmaking with Wade out, and Rose can't shoot next to Wade.


----------



## Accelerate

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



rocketeer said:


> i mean he abused brook lopez inside(and of course was lost on pick and roll defense on the other end) until the blazers just stopped passing to him and took him out of the game. not that that is really an accomplishment but some people seem to have decided that brook is the better player.


How the hell is Lopez not the better player out of the two so far? And when exactly did he _abuse_ Lopez inside?


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Accelerate said:


> How the hell is Lopez not the better player out of the two so far? And when exactly did he _abuse_ Lopez inside?


did you watch the game?

when the blazers actually went inside at the start, oden backed down lopez with no problem and dunked. then the next 2 or 3 times oden got the ball inside, lopez immediately fouled him because he couldn't handle him. lopez couldn't handle oden inside.

but then oden was having trouble defending the pick and roll on the other end, picked up his 2nd foul, and came out for the rest of the half. when he eventually did get back in the game, the blazers never went back to him inside.

and yes, oden is the better player of the two. stats aren't everything.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

I suggest people check out the Brook Lopez thread in the draft forum and the ridiculous claims rocketeer has made in regards to him. Please do not take his points on Lopez seriously, the guy seems to have something against him. There is no way, shape or form that Oden has played better than Brook this season. And then to top it off, he says Oden is the better player, no basis for that by the way, but hey stats aren't everything right?


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> I suggest people check out the Brook Lopez thread in the draft forum and the ridiculous claims rocketeer has made in regards to him. Please do not take his points on Lopez seriously, the guy seems to have something against him. There is no way, shape or form that Oden has played better than Brook this season. And then to top it off, he says Oden is the better player, no basis for that by the way, but hey stats aren't everything right?


to top off saying that oden is the better player, i say that oden is the better player? shocking.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

When your argument can't be supported by stats, of course its flawed.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> When your argument can't be supported by stats, of course its flawed.


where did i ever say that stats don't support my argument? i simply said that stats aren't everything. people are quit to look at lopez averaging 11 and 8 and oden averaging 8 and 7 and immediately jump to the conclusion that lopez is better even though that isn't the case.

lopez is a better jumpshooter than oden. and a better free throw shooter. and well, that's about it. and he's been a better shotblocker this season.

oden is a better scorer(more efficient scorer even though only half of oden's baskets are assisted and 60% of lopez's are and oden is much better at getting to the line), better rebounder, better passer, better defensive player, and a much harder player for other teams to match up with.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Hmm lets see, if Lopez were playing on a team where they spoon fed him for easy dunks on almost every possession, of course his field goal percentage would be higher. You claim Lopez gets assisted on more shots, yet going by 82games, most of Oden's points come from the inside. Unless of course he has turned into a reliable post scorer since the last time I saw him. Brook averages more rebounds yet Oden is the better rebounder. Brook is averaging more blocked shots too, though somehow Oden is the better defender. I figure you will follow that up with blocks don't make someone a good defender. Correct! So whats your basis for saying Oden is the better defender? How's Oden a much harder player for teams to match up with? Both players are the same height and weigh about the same. Lopez's offensive skills are also light years ahead of Oden at this point. Brook Lopez 0.8 apg, Oden 0.7 apg, yet Oden is the better passer. Come on man! I wouldn't even be bringing up either's passing abilities just yet.

Brook Lopez career highs 31pts 13rebs 5 blocks
Oden's career highs 24pts 15rebs 4 blocks

Again, where are you getting this stuff from?


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> Hmm lets see, if Lopez were playing on a team where they spoon fed him for easy dunks on almost every possession, of course his field goal percentage would be higher. You claim Lopez gets assisted on more shots, yet going by 82games, most of Oden's points come from the inside. Unless of course he has turned into a reliable post scorer since the last time I saw him. Brook averages more rebounds yet Oden is the better rebounder. Brook is averaging more blocked shots too, though somehow Oden is the better defender. I figure you will follow that up with blocks don't make someone a good defender. Correct! So whats your basis for saying Oden is the better defender? How's Oden a much harder player for teams to match up with? Both players are the same height and weigh about the same. Lopez's offensive skills are also light years ahead of Oden at this point. Brook Lopez 0.8 apg, Oden 0.7 apg, yet Oden is the better passer. Come on man! I wouldn't even be bringing up either's passing abilities just yet.
> 
> Brook Lopez career highs 31pts 13rebs 5 blocks
> Oden's career highs 24pts 15rebs 4 blocks
> 
> Again, where are you getting this stuff from?


for rebounding you can look at their rebounds per game and minutes per game. and also take a look at their rebounding rates which can be found on 82games.com.

lopez is assisted on 60% of his baskets. oden 52%. that is from 82games.com. they also break down the shot attempts. lopez is taking almost 40% of his from 7+ feet(that is their "jump" category). and really he's not even that much better of a shooter from that distance either. oh and your "spoon for dunks" comment that i assume was supposed to be a knock on oden? oden is assisted on 72% of his dunks. lopez 76%.

for passing you mostly have to just watch some games, but oden plays less minutes so that of course gives him the advantage with the assists per game. also you can check their passer rating again at 82games.

as far harder to matchup with, oden is bigger and stronger than lopez. there aren't a lot of guys in the league that can matchup with oden's size and strength. he had no problem backing down lopez when he got the ball. and as far as guarding lopez, all teams have to do is play behind him and not allow him to get great post position and he'll take jump shots that he doesn't hit a good percentage of. then all you have to worry about is not giving him easy points off the pick and roll. oden's strength makes him a harder matchup.

career highs are relevant how?

defense comes from watching games. there isn't really a great statistical measure for it(that i know of) and blocks and steals definitely don't tell the whole story and i already addressed that lopez has in fact been the better shot blocker of the two this season.


----------



## Diable

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Well so long as Oden continues to foul like he does it's hard to believe he's going to be a really good player.Don't even bother trying to put it on the refs either...Every player in the league is going to be called for doing the silly stuff he's doing.If he wants to stay on the floor it's up to him to make the adjustment.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Diable said:


> Well so long as Oden continues to foul like he does it's hard to believe he's going to be a really good player.Don't even bother trying to put it on the refs either...Every player in the league is going to be called for doing the silly stuff he's doing.If he wants to stay on the floor it's up to him to make the adjustment.


that's definitely true. oden has had some terrible fouls this year. one in the nets game where devin harris had blown by his man and oden just reached out and grabbed him after harris had already shot the ball.

i think it would help if the blazers let him player through foul trouble occasionally instead of always immediately pulling him. let him learn to play with fouls and if he ends up picking up more and has to come out, who really cares since joel is the best backup center in the league.


----------



## Najee

*So, let me understand ...*

If I'm hearing this pro-Greg Oden argument correctly, the only reason why a player who inexplicably has been compared to Shaquille O'Neal and David Robinson despite all his warts is better than Brook Lopez at this point is because he has a better body?


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So, let me understand ...*



Najee said:


> If I'm hearing this pro-Greg Oden argument correctly, the only reason why a player who inexplicably has been compared to Shaquille O'Neal and David Robinson despite all his warts is better than Brook Lopez at this point is because he has a better body?


no, that would not be correct.

oden is better than brook lopez because he's a better scorer, rebounder, passer, and defender. being bigger and stronger than lopez certainly plays a part in that, but it definitely isn't the only reason he's better.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



> for rebounding you can look at their rebounds per game and minutes per game. and also take a look at their rebounding rates which can be found on 82games.com.
> 
> lopez is assisted on 60% of his baskets. oden 52%. that is from 82games.com. they also break down the shot attempts. lopez is taking almost 40% of his from 7+ feet(that is their "jump" category). and really he's not even that much better of a shooter from that distance either. oh and your "spoon for dunks" comment that i assume was supposed to be a knock on oden? oden is assisted on 72% of his dunks. lopez 76%.
> 
> for passing you mostly have to just watch some games, but oden plays less minutes so that of course gives him the advantage with the assists per game. also you can check their passer rating again at 82games.
> 
> as far harder to matchup with, oden is bigger and stronger than lopez. there aren't a lot of guys in the league that can matchup with oden's size and strength. he had no problem backing down lopez when he got the ball. and as far as guarding lopez, all teams have to do is play behind him and not allow him to get great post position and he'll take jump shots that he doesn't hit a good percentage of. then all you have to worry about is not giving him easy points off the pick and roll. oden's strength makes him a harder matchup.
> 
> career highs are relevant how?
> 
> defense comes from watching games. there isn't really a great statistical measure for it(that i know of) and blocks and steals definitely don't tell the whole story and i already addressed that lopez has in fact been the better shot blocker of the two this season.





> no, that would not be correct.
> 
> oden is better than brook lopez because he's a better scorer, rebounder, passer, and defender. being bigger and stronger than lopez certainly plays a part in that, but it definitely isn't the only reason he's better.


If Oden is a better scorer than Lopez, how many 20 point games has he had this season? Now how many has Brook had this season too? 

If Oden is a better rebounder than Brook, how many double digit rebounding games has he had? Now do the same for Brook. How does rebounding rate actually apply to the game? Player X gets so so amount of rebounds in so so amount of time when he plays. Thats all that matters to me. 

If Oden is a better passer, which he isn't by the way, tell me how or why this great passer is averaging 0.7apg as compared to Brook's 0.8. Seriously where do you get this claims from? Luckily for you, some of us watch games. Oden's offense is mechanical at best. He never showed much passing ability at Ohio State and he certainly isnt doing that in the NBA.

You bring up rebounding rate and the minutes he plays as argument, but you fail to realize he doesnt stay on the court long enough, because he is not that good to get more minutes as of yet. He also gets into a lot of foul trouble. Brook gets more minutes because he has shown he can actually hang with the NBA big boys.

Whilst Oden might be stronger, he isnt more skilled. The jumper isnt the only way Brook scores. His hook shots are really effective also.


----------



## Najee

*Re: So, let me understand ...*



rocketeer said:


> oden is better than brook lopez because he's a better scorer, rebounder, passer, and defender. being bigger and stronger than lopez certainly plays a part in that, but it definitely isn't the only reason he's better.


Too bad none of the statistics bear that out so far (as been shown in this thread, including in your own argument). Maybe because Greg Oden is as foul prone in the NBA as he was in college, thus he can't stay on the floor.

Again, it's rather laughable when you consider with whom Oden has been compared throughout his career. According to the hype machine on this board and in other quarters, if Oden was as half as good as surmised this shouldn't even be a serious discussion.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: So, let me understand ...*



Najee said:


> Too bad none of the statistics bear that out so far (as been shown in this thread, including in your own argument).


bull****.



> Again, it's rather laughable when you consider with whom Oden has been compared throughout his career. According to the hype machine on this board and in other quarters, if Oden was as half as good as surmised this shouldn't even be a serious discussion.


in all honesty, this shouldn't be a serious discussion at all.

oden has not had a great year, but he is still better than brook lopez and that shouldn't be all that hard to see.


----------



## 23isback

*Re: So, let me understand ...*



rocketeer said:


> bull****.
> 
> 
> in all honesty, this shouldn't be a serious discussion at all.
> 
> oden has not had a great year, but he is still better than brook lopez and that shouldn't be all that hard to see.


As of now Lopez is better than Oden.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> If Oden is a better scorer than Lopez, how many 20 point games has he had this season? Now how many has Brook had this season too?


20 point games really aren't relevant. they don't tell you how good of a scorer someone is.



> If Oden is a better rebounder than Brook, how many double digit rebounding games has he had? Now do the same for Brook. How does rebounding rate actually apply to the game? Player X gets so so amount of rebounds in so so amount of time when he plays. Thats all that matters to me.


again, why is number of double digit games a relevant stat? i don't know who has more, and i don't care.

if you don't think rebound rate applies to the game, there is really no point discussing the game with you at all. and if you don't like rebound rate, just use common sense. one guy grabs 7 rebounds per game in 23 minutes. the other guy grabs 8 rebounds a game in 29.5 minutes. which guy is the better rebounder?



> If Oden is a better passer, which he isn't by the way, tell me how or why this great passer is averaging 0.7apg as compared to Brook's 0.8. Seriously where do you get this claims from? Luckily for you, some of us watch games. Oden's offense is mechanical at best. He never showed much passing ability at Ohio State and he certainly isnt doing that in the NBA.


if you did watch the games, you'd see oden is a better passer. and again .7 assists in 23 minutes per game is better than .8 assists in 29.5 minutes per game. their passer rating shows this as well. the numbers don't indicate a huge advantage to oden, but they do indicate an advantage and it's backed up by the play i've seen.



> You bring up rebounding rate and the minutes he plays as argument, but you fail to realize he doesnt stay on the court long enough, because he is not that good to get more minutes as of yet. He also gets into a lot of foul trouble. Brook gets more minutes because he has shown he can actually hang with the NBA big boys.


he is definitely good enough to get minutes. part of the minute problem was injury early in the year, part of the minute problem is that he has committed some dumb fouls, and another part of the minute problem is that the blazers have the best backup center(and best rebounder) in the league in joel pryzbilla so they don't play oden through foul trouble and it's harder for oden to see huge minutes in games.



> Whilst Oden might be stronger, he isnt more skilled. The jumper isnt the only way Brook scores. His hook shots are really effective also.


never said the jumper was the only way he scored. i said if you play behind lopez in the post and deny him really deep position, that he'll just settle for jump shots and that then you just have to worry about the pick and roll which is a lot more about harris/vince than it is about lopez.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

The fact that you are trying to argue that 0.7apg in 23mpg is even worth discussing is reason enough for me to not take your arguments seriously. Has he even had a game where he had 5 + assists?

And you can make up excuses as to why Oden is playing 23mpg, fact of the matter is his progression has been poor. Najee already talked about it. Guy was supposedly the next Shaq, but so far he's played nothing like that. Think Shaq would be battling for minutes with Pryzbilla?


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> The fact that you are trying to argue that 0.7apg in 23mpg is even worth discussing is reason enough for me to not take your arguments seriously. Has he even had a game where he had 5 + assists?
> 
> And you can make up excuses as to why Oden is playing 23mpg, fact of the matter is his progression has been poor. Najee already talked about it. Guy was supposedly the next Shaq, but so far he's played nothing like that. Think Shaq would be battling for minutes with Pryzbilla?


he wasn't billed as the next shaq.

and whether or not he's been disappointing relative to expectations is completely different than whether or not he's been better than brook lopez. those are two different issues unless you feel like lopez is currently playing like a superstar and felt oden would instantly be one.

oh and i didn't make up anything, i gave you the reasons his minutes have been what they are.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

But you do realize the only one arguing that Oden is a better player than Lopez at this point in time is you. And going by some of your posts against Lopez, its not exactly trustworthy. Every single rookie ranking, every single pundit who covers NBA rookies, not one, I repeat not one has Oden over Lopez.

His minutes are low, once again, because he is not good enough. They selected him not to share minutes with Pryzbilla. Pryzbilla being a good backup center has nothing to do with it.

And yes he was billed as the next Shaq, could be why Shaq took offense to the comparison, no?


----------



## Diable

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

noone with a brain ever compared oden to shaq.They compared him with Bill Russell because he didn't possess a well developed offensive game(even though this isn't really true about Russell) and it was believed that he would be a great defender and shotblocker.As of right now you have to give him a little time because of the history of mfs suggests that he probably hasn't fully recovered as yet.Still he hasn't adapted to the level of competition as a shotblocker.All those elite big ten athletes somehow haven't showed up at this level...Aren't many Indiana high school boys either.You have to assume that Oden will be able to defend and rebound at the next level if he can learn to make better decisions.However that isn't the sort of thing you draft a guy number one for.


----------



## Wade County

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Oden has been pretty disapointing really - hindsight says Durant wouldve made that team better with Roy/Durant/Aldridge as your 2,3,4 combo's they wouldve been set for the next 10+ years.

Still, Oden is one season removed from a torn ACL - its gonna take some time. His ceiling may not be Russell or Shaq like the 'experts' predicted.

Maybe 18/11/3 - or Alonzo Mourning - is more accurate. I think Portland would take that.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Ahem...



rocketeer said:


> why not? gordon, augustin, and love are all going to be better players than him.





rocketeer said:


> it certainly isn't a power move. not that it matters at all. who evens cares if he's finesse or something else. as long as he gets the job done, he gets the job done. of course, brook lopez won't get the job done, so it doesn't matter either way.
> 
> It felt like there were people rooting for him when i was calling him a bust during the season. but now it seems like everyone has jumped on the bust bandwagon. it's because he's white. or i guess more specifically because he isn't black.





rocketeer said:


> no one's hating. he's put together a good stretch of games. the word "stud" just is not accurate at all to describe his play so far.
> 
> and no, he hasn't been better than oden. oden doesn't have to ever score and still has a much bigger impact that lopez through his defense and the attention he draws from opposing defenses.


This one is actually funny, because we are talking about a 20 year old Brook Lopez, putting up good numbers in his rookie season, but hey Oden who's not even having the same type of season is a much better player. Gotcha!

Oh yeah, the same rocketeer at one point said Chalmers should be picked ahead of Lopez if the draft were done over.


----------



## Najee

It doesn't matter whether it is Shaquille O'Neal or Bill Russell (as if being compared to Russell is some sort of consolation prize), the bottom line is Greg Oden has been compared favorably with hall of fame-level centers coming into college and the NBA. And watching him play at Ohio State and in Portland, he really has not done much of anything to be afforded such lofty praise.

Moreover, history seems to be against him in getting to such a level. If you look at the perennial all-star to hall-of-fame level centers who have come into the NBA in the past 40 years with leeway to play major minutes immediately, virtually all of them were big impact players as rookies.

As far as the microfracture injury, Oden's history of injuries (both in severity and the rather mundane of occurrence) is a concern, and was a red flag when he got drafted. He had a wrist injury that had him in a cast for six months while at Ohio State and the microfracture surgery was the result of a physician finding it during a routine exam. The fact that Oden is barely 20 and having an injury associated with years of extensive play even though he has little mileage on his legs does not bode well.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> Ahem...
> 
> This one is actually funny, because we are talking about a 20 year old Brook Lopez, putting up good numbers in his rookie season, but hey Oden who's not even having the same type of season is a much better player. Gotcha!
> 
> Oh yeah, the same rocketeer at one point said Chalmers should be picked ahead of Lopez if the draft were done over.


those quotes are just hilarious man...?

eric gordon and dj augustin are both going to end up better players than him. augustin was better than him to start the year, and if he gets through his current injury will be better over the course of the season as well. and you may not have been paying attention(it doesn't seem like you do very often) you'd see that now that gordon has been getting shots and minutes, he's better than lopez as well. kevin love definitely has a shot though his offensive game has been terrible thus far(of course he's been a great rebounder).

brook lopez has been better than i thought. i've said that many times. that doesn't mean he's great though and definitely isn't a "stud".

and chalmers as well has a good shot at being a better player than lopez longterm and still having a better rookie year than lopez. he's fallen off a little bit recently but his solid pg play has been huge for miami.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Najee said:


> It doesn't matter whether it is Shaquille O'Neal or Bill Russell


if you see no difference in being compared to shaq or russell, then i just don't know what to tell you.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Nvm, some people dont know how to admit they are wrong.


----------



## Najee

*Try better, son*

It tells me you cannot read and you're trying to take a sentence out of context in a sad attempt to make a strawman argument, rocketeer. The point you apparently can't figure out is when comparisons have been made with Greg Oden, it's generally with some of the greatest centers in NBA history.

You may not know this being only in grade school when Shaquille O'Neal came into the NBA, but Bill Russell was a great player. Your lack of reading comprehension and history of the NBA before 2000 certainly would explain your shoddy argument, though.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Diable said:


> noone with a brain ever compared oden to shaq.They compared him with Bill Russell because he didn't possess a well developed offensive game(even though this isn't really true about Russell) and it was believed that he would be a great defender and shotblocker.


I remember a post either on here or RealGM (I think) that said something along the lines of _"At his prime he'll be a Bill Russell/Hakeem Olajuwon type, but stronger and more athletic like a young Shaq"_ .. :laugh:

Anyway, the only thing really worth pointing out about Oden's game so far imo is his fouling which some have commented on. He'll learn and refine that defensive side of his game but he's looked kinda clumsy with his arms/hands at times, and I said before he played that that would be what hurts him most.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Try better, son*



Najee said:


> It tells me you cannot read and you're trying to take a sentence out of context in a sad attempt to make a strawman argument, rocketeer.
> 
> You may not know this being only in grade school when Shaquille O'Neal came into the NBA, but Bill Russell was a great player. Your lack of reading comprehension and history of the NBA before 2000 certainly would explain your shoddy argument, though.


right...

the expectations placed on someone compared to russell(who was better than shaq) and the expectations placed on someone compared to shaq are very different. yes, both were great players but you can't just throw them in there and act as if it doesn't matter who he was compared to and pretend it's equal.

oden hasn't lived up to any of that thus far. of course you look at a guy like amare and you see that two years after microfracture he must much different than just a year after. we'll have to see where that goes with oden.

and oden being a disappointment has nothing to do with whether or not he's better than brook lopez.


----------



## Najee

*Again, not making a bit of sense*



rocketeer said:


> the expectations placed on someone compared to russell(who was better than shaq) and the expectations placed on someone compared to shaq are very different. yes, both were great players but you can't just throw them in there and act as if it doesn't matter who he was compared to and pretend it's equal.


You're so hellbent on being right you're making yourself look ridiculous.

Being compared to players like Bill Russell and Shaquille O'Neal means the player in question has the potential to be considered one of the very best players in NBA history. You're so busy trying to play skills-matching that you're missing the more obvious point: Greg Oden has been considered generally to have a hall of fame-level pedigree (I've also heard comparisons with Oden to players like David Robinson and Patrick Ewing), even though his career path in college and the NBA have far more in common with the likes of Benoit Benjamin.

The microfracture injury is just another cop-out for Oden's play, IMO. You need to be concerned with the nature of the discovery of the injury, which happened during a routine medical exam. Oden's injury wasn't caused by unusual stress or wear and tear, a la Amare Stoudemire, Chris Webber, Jason Kidd, Penny Hardaway and Allan Houston. That and a wrist injury that had him in a cast for six months (not to mention suffering another ankle injury at the start of this season) and Oden looks more like Samuel L. Jackson's Mr. Glass in "Unbreakable."

And your Oden vs. Brook Lopez argument is equally poor at this point. A player favorably compared with some of the best players in NBA history _should_ be better than Lopez, but the reality is Oden is not -- which says something about how far-fetched those comparisons to Oden were in the first place.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Again, not making a bit of sense*



Najee said:


> The microfracture injury is just another cop-out for Oden's play, IMO. You need to be concerned with the nature of the discovery of the injury, which happened during a routine medical exam. Oden's injury wasn't caused by unusual stress or wear and tear, a la Amare Stoudemire, Chris Webber, Jason Kidd, Penny Hardaway and Allan Houston. That and a wrist injury that had him in a cast for six months (not to mention suffering another ankle injury at the start of this season) and Oden looks more like Samuel L. Jackson's Mr. Glass in "Unbreakable."


it's no cop out, it's reality. we don't know if this is really oden at 100% or not. that isn't important in regards to his play right now, but the potential he has in the future. and really until we find that out, it will always be an unknown.

and do you really want to bring up his sprained foot that caused his to miss 6 games as if it's something significant?


----------



## Najee

*Re: Again, not making a bit of sense*



rocketeer said:


> it's no cop out, it's reality. we don't know if this is really oden at 100% or not. that isn't important in regards to his play right now, but the potential he has in the future. and really until we find that out, it will always be an unknown.
> 
> and do you really want to bring up his sprained foot that caused his to miss 6 games as if it's something significant?


The problem with your argument is I am evaluating Greg Oden for the totality of his career, both in college and in the NBA. Quite frankly, I'm not surprised by his level of play with Portland because he rarely showed me anything else. At Ohio State, he was foul prone, had little overall developed game and seemed disinterested in playing at times which showed in some very lackluster performances.

And whether you want to admit it or not, the guy is brittle. in fact, Oden's brittle nature was mentioned by physicians during his medical exam before the 2007 draft. There was concern then that he could suffer major injuries that would take a long time to heal, a la Bill Walton, Sam Bowie, etc. Again, something he showed in Ohio State with the wrist injury when it reportedly took more than six months to heal. 

I mean, he has a major leg injury from NOT playing -- that's like someone getting out bed feeling fine and later going to the doctor and you're diagnosed with a broken arm even though you did nothing to break it.

So with all that baggage, you can see where I cannot see the merit of these comparisons with Oden to these hall of fame-caliber players. He's never shown that kind of consistent dominance or excellence and he's going to have to overcome some significant issues to elevate to that kind of game.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Again, not making a bit of sense*



Najee said:


> The problem with your argument is I am evaluating Greg Oden for the totality of his career, both in college and in the NBA. Quite frankly, I'm not surprised by his level of play with Portland because he rarely showed me anything else. At Ohio State, he was foul prone, had little overall developed game and seemed disinterested in playing at times which showed in some very lackluster performances.
> 
> And whether you want to admit it or not, the guy is brittle. in fact, Oden's brittle nature was mentioned by physicians during his medical exam before the 2007 draft. There was concern then that he could suffer major injuries that would take a long time to heal, a la Bill Walton, Sam Bowie, etc. Again, something he showed in Ohio State with the wrist injury when it reportedly took more than six months to heal.
> 
> I mean, he has a major leg injury from NOT playing -- that's like someone getting out bed feeling fine and later going to the doctor and you're diagnosed with a broken arm even though you did nothing to break it.
> 
> So with all that baggage, you can see where I cannot see the merit of these comparisons with Oden to these hall of fame-caliber players. He's never shown that kind of consistent dominance or excellence and he's going to have to overcome some significant issues to elevate to that kind of game.


at ohio state he was foul prone like every other college big. college refs don't know how to officiate big men.

with oden's wrist injury, at the time he had surgery, they said it would take 6 months. and it took 6 months before he was back playing games. i'm not sure why you feel that is crazy occurrence that shows oden takes too long to heal.

to say that his knee injury came from doing nothing wouldn't necessarily be correct. they don't know what caused it, but that is different than nothing causing it.

and still, all of this and oden being a disappointment thus far has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he's better than brook lopez.


----------



## Najee

*Let it go, man*

It's pretty apparent you like to make excuses for Greg Oden, even when they clearly are devoid of common sense.

I've seen plenty of great big men play in college since the late '70s forward, from Ralph Sampson and Sam Bowie to Patrick Ewing and Hakeem Olajuwon to David Robinson to Alonzo Mourning, Christian Laettner and Shaquille O'Neal to Tim Duncan. None of them constantly sat on the bench and stayed in foul trouble the way Oden did and does. Oden reaches way too much to be a so-called standout defender and given the only shot he has is a dunk it's too easy to stand in front of him and draw a foul.

You can't even come up with a rational excuse for the microfracture surgery. The fact is HE DID NOTHING to garner such an injury, which reinforces he is incredibly brittle (which physicians surmised during his exam prior to the 2007 draft). Oden doesn't have mileage on his legs, so outside of being even more fragile than the average big man there is no other logic. And surely you don't think it's typical for people to recover from a wrist surgery in six months. Keep in mind, Oden suffered this injury in high school and still was wearing a hand cast the large part of his one season at Ohio State.

Again, nothing about the lethargic play which Oden displays, or the less-than-impressive production he's had so far in college and the NBA. So add all that together and does actually think it makes sense to compare all THAT TO BILL RUSSELL, SHAQUILLE O'NEAL OR ANY OTHER HALL-OF-FAME CENTER?


----------



## Najee

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



MB30 said:


> Oden has been pretty disapointing really - hindsight says Durant wouldve made that team better with Roy/Durant/Aldridge as your 2,3,4 combo's they wouldve been set for the next 10+ years.
> 
> Still, Oden is one season removed from a torn ACL - its gonna take some time. His ceiling may not be Russell or Shaq like the 'experts' predicted.
> 
> Maybe 18/11/3 - or Alonzo Mourning - is more accurate. I think Portland would take that.


In all fairness, that is an insult to Alonzo Mourning, unless you're talking about the diminished, post-kidney operation 'Zo. Mourning as a rookie was much better than Greg Oden is now, which means Oden would have to make a gigantic leap to get to that level (much less comparable to Zo's salad days in Miami).

It's fair to say that based on his body of work (college, NBA) that Oden so far looks like a more glorified version of players like Tree Rollins and Alton Lister.

P.S. I'm still trying to see how Oden is supposedly better than Brook Lopez so far this season, especially considering Lopez completely outplayed him on Jan. 15.


----------



## aussiestatman

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



aussiestatman said:


> ask again in february when he is dominating opposing centres and his stat line reads more like 17/12 and 2 or 3 blocks


interesting today if oden can play well in a second game in a row, especially as cleveland are an elite team, even without ilgauskas and west


----------



## Dornado

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Najee said:


> In all fairness, that is an insult to Alonzo Mourning, unless you're talking about the diminished, post-kidney operation 'Zo. Mourning as a rookie was much better than Greg Oden is now, which means Oden would have to make a gigantic leap to get to that level (much less comparable to Zo's salad days in Miami).
> 
> It's fair to say that based on his body of work (college, NBA) that Oden so far looks like a more glorified version of players like Tree Rollins and Alton Lister.
> 
> P.S. I'm still trying to see how Oden is supposedly better than Brook Lopez so far this season, especially considering Lopez completely outplayed him on Jan. 15.


So do you want to go on record that Lopez will have a better career than Oden?


----------



## Najee

*Greg Oden's upside*



Dornado said:


> So do you want to go on record that Lopez will have a better career than Oden?


No, because I -- like you -- do not have a crystal ball to use to predict the future.

Maybe Greg Oden will address all his serious warts and become a standout player, maybe he won't. All I know is based on the times I have seen Oden play since his high school days, and so far I have seen a huge disconnection between his expectations/upside/potential and his performances.

In other words, I hear Bill Russell/David Robinson/Shaquille O'Neal-type comparisons for a player who so far looks like a more injury-prone Benoit Benjamin.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Greg Oden's upside*



Najee said:


> No, because I -- like you -- do not have a crystal ball to use to predict the future.
> 
> Maybe Greg Oden will address all his serious warts and become a standout player, maybe he won't. All I know is based on the times I have seen Oden play since his high school days, and so far I have seen a huge disconnection between his expectations/upside/potential and his performances.
> 
> In other words, I hear Bill Russell/David Robinson/Shaquille O'Neal-type comparisons for a player who so far looks like a more injury-prone Benoit Benjamin.


Everyone knows he's raw... at his age Russell, Robinson and O'Neal were all still in college...


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Oden is older than Brook Lopez by months. Same thing with Spencer Hawes. Statistically both those players are having better seasons than Oden, regardless of what rocketeer might tell you. Why are those two players any less raw than him? After all they are going up against the same opposition. Heck Oden is more naturally gifted than both.

He could develop into a very dominant center with time, but as of now, its safe to stay his growth in the game hasn't been stellar


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



NewAgeBaller said:


> Anyway, the only thing really worth pointing out about Oden's game so far imo is his fouling which some have commented on. He'll learn and refine that defensive side of his game but he's looked kinda clumsy with his arms/hands at times, and I said before he played that that would be what hurts him most.


In a sense his size hurts him as much as anything, he has that bull-in-china-shop thing going that gets him whistled for even incidental contact, a situation made worse by his tendency to commit stupid fouls. He reminds me, in a lot of ways, of a billionaire's Kendrick Perkins. Unlike Perkins he has actual offensive skills, and like Perkins is a ferocious post defender. But he'll need to work on ingratiating himself with the zebras if he wants to reach full impact (which is something that Perkins has never done),


----------



## Diable

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

So now he's being compared to big ugly goons...I really don't think that's called for


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Diable said:


> So now he's being compared to big ugly goons...I really don't think that's called for


Perkins is a pretty good defender & rebounder. Albeit one completely without offensive skills. But there are few post defenders in the NBA better than Perk (when healthy, that is).


----------



## Najee

*Re: Greg Oden's upside*



Dornado said:


> Everyone knows he's raw... at his age Russell, Robinson and O'Neal were all still in college...


Shaquille O'Neal and David Robinson were considerably better than Greg Oden at the same age.

Oden will be 21 tomorrow. When he was 21, Shaq was in his second NBA season and on his way to averaging 29.3 points and 13.2 rebounds per game in the 1993-94 season. When he was 21, The Admiral was the best player in college basketball.

I did not have the pleasure of seeing Bill Russell play in the mid-50s. But given that he is considered one of the very best college players ever and he was a senior at San Francisco at the time it is a little hard for me to argue he was in the same boat then that Oden is in now.

Again, this is another example of how preposterous the comparisons are with Oden. When it seems favorable, he's positioned next to some of the best big men ever to play basketball -- even though he clearly doesn't measure up at those respective stages. Oden doesn't have the same performances and consistency, the same freakish athleticism (especially in the cases of Shaq and The Admiral), the same skill, the same durability and the same skill toolkit as those guys.

And none of these guys came into the NBA struggling the way Oden has.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Najee said:


> P.S. I'm still trying to see how Oden is supposedly better than Brook Lopez so far this season, especially considering Lopez completely outplayed him on Jan. 15.


it shouldn't be that difficult as i have said it on multiple occasions and given the reasons. but i'll tell you again one more time and leave it at that.

oden is a better scorer(and has been this season). this is because he's a more efficient scorer(high fg%, efg%, points per shot, etc) while also getting to the free throw line more often(he makes the same amount that lopez attempts) and being assisted on less of his baskets(50% for oden to 60% for lopez). his points per game are lower, but his points per minute are pretty similar and he only play 6-7 less minutes a game so it's not like there's some huge difference and comparing their per minute numbers is deceiving.

he's also a better rebounder(and has been this season). this can be seen with his 7 rebounds in 23 minutes against lopez's 8 rebounds in 29.5 minutes. this also is illustrated by their rebound rate(oden 34.4 while lopez is 29.6).

oden also is a better passer(and has been this season). this can be seen by their assists, assists/turnover ratio, and their passer rating(this and rebound rate both from 82games.com). it also can come from just watching their games where you can see oden is good at things like passing out of doubles.

we also have the fact that oden draws more attention from opposing teams. in the post he is often double teamed and when going head to head with lopez, everytime oden caught the ball in the post he either scored or was fouled by lopez. that however was a very small sample of 4 times, after which oden came out of the game and was not used as a part of the offense when he returned in limited minutes.

oden also has a slight lead over lopez in per.

and then there is defense where i believe oden is better even though lopez has superior block numbers.


----------



## Najee

*Go on with that noise*

Your argument is even weaker than the first time you said it, rocketeer. You're proof that using obscure stats (that include projections and hypotheticals) don't show how smart you are, but how you hope to confuse people with common sense.

The fact you have to stretch that far to make an unconvincing arugment that Greg Oden is better than the likes of Brook Lopez merely emphasizes how ridiculous it is for some overzealous people to try to compare Oden with some of the greatest centers in NBA history.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Go on with that noise*



Najee said:


> Your argument is even weaker than the first time you said it, rocketeer. You're proof that using obscure stats (that include projections and hypotheticals) don't show how smart you are, but how you hope to confuse people with common sense.
> 
> The fact you have to stretch that far to make an unconvincing arugment that Greg Oden is better than the likes of Brook Lopez merely emphasizes how ridiculous it is for some overzealous people to try to compare Oden with some of the greatest centers in NBA history.


i used no projections or hypotheticals. didn't really use any obsure stats either. if something like rebound rate or per is too obscure for you, other things like looking at rebounds per game, field goal percentage, etc do the trick just find. it is common sense that would suggest someone who gets 7 rebounds in 23 minutes is a better rebounder than someone who gets 8 rebounds in 29.5 minutes, but maybe that is too much for you. common sense would also suggest that if you are a better rebounder, more efficient scorer(though score a little less), better passer, and better defender, then you also are the better basketball player even if you play 6-7 less minutes per game.

your second paragraph is entirely unrelated to this argument. greg oden has been a disappointment thus far. you won't see anyone anywhere saying anything different.


----------



## Najee

*More rationalizations*

Using rate-based statistics are projections, so it shows you clearly don't understand what you're posting. I'm not impressed that someone averages 7 rebounds in 23 minutes vs. 8 rebounds in 29 minutes, particularly when you have no context for numbers.

For instance, Greg Oden plays only 23 minutes per game because he fouls so much (roughly 1 foul for every 6 minutes he plays). So the rate is less impressive when you look at the whole picture of Oden's situation.

When Oden is consistently good enough to stay on the floor, then we'll talk.


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Ehh, IMO it's pretty funny that Oden went from Shaq to Brook Lopez in just a few months.


----------



## Najee

*Greg Oden's night*



VanillaPrice said:


> Ehh, IMO it's pretty funny that Oden went from Shaq to Brook Lopez in just a few months.


It's pretty obvious that some people want to crow about Greg Oden only when he has a good game. Where is the post where he put in 10 points and 8 rebounds before (yes) fouling out in 25 minutes vs. Cleveland on Wednesday?

Like it or not, those numbers are reflective of Oden's play.


----------



## HB

*Re: More rationalizations*



Najee said:


> Using rate-based statistics are projections, so it shows you clearly don't understand what you're posting. I'm not impressed that someone averages 7 rebounds in 23 minutes vs. 8 rebounds in 29 minutes, particularly when you have no context for numbers.
> 
> For instance, Greg Oden plays only 23 minutes per game because he fouls so much (roughly 1 foul for every 6 minutes he plays). So the rate is less impressive when you look at the whole picture of Oden's situation.
> 
> *When Oden is consistently good enough to stay on the floor, then we'll talk.*


Thank you, summed up perfectly


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: More rationalizations*



Najee said:


> Using rate-based statistics are projections, so it shows you clearly don't understand what you're posting. I'm not impressed that someone averages 7 rebounds in 23 minutes vs. 8 rebounds in 29 minutes, particularly when you have no context for numbers.


RebRates aren't "projections". They're an approximation of the percentage of available rebounds that a player accrues while he's on the floor. Oden grabs a much higher percentage of the available rebounds than Brook Lopez does. The fact that Brook manages to score three more points by taking four more shots and grabbing an extra rebound in 25% more time does not, in fact, make him a better scorer and rebounder than Oden. That argument is a lot like the one that Antoine Walker fans used to make about their hero. At the end of the day Brook Lopez is a seven footer that can't manage to hit half of his shots.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

So does this mean Love is the best rebounder in the class?

As for Brook's FG%, it only takes two good games to bump that over 50%.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Love certainly looks like the best rebounder in the 2008 draft class so far. Though I still think it was a foolish move of Minnesota unless they were planning on trading the Big Lazy. Because you really can't put Jefferson and Love on the floor at the same time.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Greg Oden's night*



Najee said:


> It's pretty obvious that some people want to crow about Greg Oden only when he has a good game. Where is the post where he put in 10 points and 8 rebounds before (yes) fouling out in 25 minutes vs. Cleveland on Wednesday?
> 
> Like it or not, those numbers are reflective of Oden's play.


apparently, you're just another guy who doesn't watch games.

oden was fine against the cavs. yes, he fouled out. he also got called for two questionable offensive foul calls going against varejao and one of his fouls was a terrible call when him and lebron both dove for a loose ball. and that he was able to score 10 points and get 8 rebounds and an assist when he was only passed the ball in the post something like 5 times all game was a pretty decent accomplishment.

i don't intend up bringing this back up after every single game though, good or bad. the season will play at and when can get back to this as needed.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> So does this mean Love is the best rebounder in the class?
> 
> As for Brook's FG%, it only takes two good games to bump that over 50%.


yes, kevin love has been the best rebounder in the class.

as for brook's fg%, it already took two good games that he had very recently to bump it up over 47%. my guess is it would fall back there closer to where it's been the majority of the season than to jump up over 50%. but hey, that is better than i thought it would be.


----------



## Najee

*Re: Greg Oden's night*



rocketeer said:


> apparently, you're just another guy who doesn't watch games.
> 
> oden was fine against the cavs. yes, he fouled out. he also got called for two questionable offensive foul calls going against varejao and one of his fouls was a terrible call when him and lebron both dove for a loose ball. and that he was able to score 10 points and get 8 rebounds and an assist when he was only passed the ball in the post something like 5 times all game was a pretty decent accomplishment.


I watched the game, and overall I didn't find Greg Oden to be that impressive vs. Cleveland. He was OK at best, again not what you would expect from a player with such expectations. The part you don't seem to understand is that is a typical game from Oden (including fouling out), not the exception.


----------



## Najee

*Re: More rationalizations*



ehmunro said:


> RebRates aren't 'projections.' They're an approximation of the percentage of available rebounds that a player accrues while he's on the floor. Oden grabs a much higher percentage of the available rebounds than Brook Lopez does.


It's still a rationalization of numbers, at the end of the day -- numbers still muted by the fact that Greg Oden stays in foul trouble too much to appreciate any statistical difference. And the rates are based on hypotheticals, assuming that if Oden plays ABC minutes consistently he would do XYZ.

It's a similar argument some Reggie Evans fans used to make for his hypothetical rebounding numbers, not taking into context that rebounding was the only NBA-level skill he had.

Throwing out numbers without context qualifies as just that -- throwing out numbers.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Greg Oden's night*



Najee said:


> I watched the game, and overall I didn't find Greg Oden to be that impressive vs. Cleveland. He was OK at best, again not what you would expect from a player with such expectations. The part you don't seem to understand is that is a typical game from Oden (including fouling out), not the exception.


oden has fouled out of 4 of the 36 games he's played in. ideal? not at all. but is fouling out a typical game for oden? not even close.

if you don't think that 10 and 8 in 25 minutes with almost no offensive plays being run for him isn't a decent game, again, i'm not sure what to tell you.


----------



## Najee

*Re: More rationalizations*



rocketeer said:


> oden has fouled out of 4 of the 36 games he's played in. ideal? not at all. but is fouling out a typical game for oden? not even close.
> 
> if you don't think that 10 and 8 in 25 minutes with almost no offensive plays being run for him isn't a decent game, again, i'm not sure what to tell you.


Greg Oden averages nearly four fouls per game in less than 23 minutes per game. Since you like rationalizing with rates, that means he picks up a foul every six minutes. 

He's had several games where he picked four fouls in less than 20 minutes. He's had six games where he had five fouls. He had one game (Dec. 23 vs. Denver) where he picked up five fouls in eight minutes!

As I said, Oden was decent at best vs. Cleveland, but you keep acting like foul trouble (and injuries, performance deficiencies and unwarranted expectations) is not part of the evaluation. Constant foul trouble certainly does have a negative impact on my evaluation of Oden.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: More rationalizations*



Najee said:


> It's a similar argument some Reggie Evans fans used to make for his hypothetical rebounding numbers, not taking into context that rebounding was the only NBA-level skill he had.


There are no Reggie Evans fans this side of the Bridgewater State Prison Sex Offenders Ward. The most anyone would ever say of Danny Fortson (who might be who you were thinking of, I think he had three or four fans) was that he was a good rebounder. And you know what? He was.


----------



## Najee

*Your turn, ehmunro*



ehmunro said:


> There are no Reggie Evans fans this side of the Bridgewater State Prison Sex Offenders Ward. The most anyone would ever say of Danny Fortson (who might be who you were thinking of, I think he had three or four fans) was that he was a good rebounder. And you know what? He was.


Not every basketball fan comes to this Web site. I've been to other sites like www.whatifsports.com where statistic-obsessed fans had convinced themselves because of Reggie Evans' rebound rate in 2004-05 he was the best rebounder in the NBA. Moreover, he should be getting more than the 23.8 minutes per game he was.

Just an example how you can let some stats distort reality to suit your purpose, especially when they have no context.

And yes, the people on that site were actually older than the teen-agers that typically raid this place.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

There are no Nutcracker Sweets fans. Anywhere. Even his mom boos him.


----------



## Najee

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



ehmunro said:


> There are no Nutcracker Sweets fans. Anywhere. Even his mom boos him.


Denial must be a Larry Johnson-drag-wearing heifer, even among moderators.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



ehmunro said:


> There are no Nutcracker Sweets fans. Anywhere. Even his mom boos him.


I think you should be required to post more than one line of text at a time, given the obnoxious length of your signature....


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

You're not fooling anyone. He gets booed by home fans.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

That guy who used to root for the Wolves, I forget his name, was also obsessed with rebound rates. He used to talk highly of Evans.


----------



## Najee

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



ehmunro said:


> You're not fooling anyone. He gets booed by home fans.


Sounds like Greg Oden, without the 90-year-old frame, of course.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> That guy who used to root for the Wolves, I forget his name, was also obsessed with rebound rates. He used to talk highly of Evans.


OK, so Nutcracker Sweets allegedly had _a_ fan. However no one has presented any proof. :bsmile:


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

why even bring up reggie evans as if he's relevant to the discussion? if reggie evans was an efficient scorer who commanded double teams while also being a good passer, then maybe he'd be relevant to the matter of greg oden. evans is a good rebounder, but that's the only skill he has on a basketball court.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> That guy who used to root for the Wolves, I forget his name, was also obsessed with rebound rates. He used to talk highly of Evans.


have you ever come up with an argument for why you think lopez is better than oden?


----------



## Dornado

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Najee said:


> Sounds like Greg Oden, without the 90-year-old frame, of course.


So where do you think Oden will end up career-wise? Were you the guy that compared him to Benoit Benjamin? 

You gave me the "I don't have a crystal ball" before when I asked about Lopez... but what about just generally? I feel like most of the people are defending Oden because they feel he's likely to develop into a solid over-all player, yet you keep harping on his less-than-stellar start...

So what'ya think?


----------



## Najee

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



rocketeer said:


> why even bring up reggie evans as if he's relevant to the discussion? if reggie evans was an efficient scorer who commanded double teams while also being a good passer, then maybe he'd be relevant to the matter of greg oden. evans is a good rebounder, but that's the only skill he has on a basketball court.


I'm still waiting to see the "Greg Oden is a good passer" myth myself. Not to mention Oden's scoring efficiency is a byproduct of the bulk of his offensive game being a dunk.

Reggie Evans was brought up as an example of where a numbers-crunching stat (like rebounding rate) can be used to distort purposely a fact, especially when it's not taken into its proper context.


----------



## Diable

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



rocketeer said:


> why even bring up reggie evans as if he's relevant to the discussion? if reggie evans was an efficient scorer who commanded double teams while also being a good passer, then maybe he'd be relevant to the matter of greg oden. evans is a good rebounder, but that's the only skill he has on a basketball court.


Which Greg Oden are you speaking of?Is there one I don't know about?


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Najee said:


> I'm still waiting to see the "Greg Oden is a good passer" myth myself. Not to mention Oden's scoring efficiency is a byproduct of the bulk of his offensive game being a dunk.
> 
> Reggie Evans was brought up as an example of where a numbers-crunching stat (like rebounding rate) can be used to distort purposely a fact, especially when it's not taken into its proper context.


so your argument then is that reggie evans is not a good rebounder?

oh and only 25% of oden's shots are dunks. not sure i'd call that the "bulk".


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Diable said:


> Which Greg Oden are you speaking of?Is there one I don't know about?


there must be one you haven't been paying attention to.

he's shooting a good % from the floor, draws fouls, and is double teamed the majority of the time he gets passed the ball in the post.


----------



## Najee

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Dornado said:


> So where do you think Oden will end up career-wise? Were you the guy that compared him to Benoit Benjamin?


I said based on what I have seen of Greg Oden in college and the NBA so far, he looks like he should be compared to a more injury-prone version of Benoit Benjamin (good athleticism, seemingly indifferent motivation, save Benoit was more skilled at this stage) than some of the hall-of-fame centers that commonly come up. 



Dornado said:


> You gave me the 'I don't have a crystal ball' before when I asked about Lopez... but what about just generally? I feel like most of the people are defending Oden because they feel he's likely to develop into a solid over-all player, yet you keep harping on his less-than-stellar start...


As I said, I've not been overly impressed with Oden since he was in high school. Like players like Benjamin, you can see some of the promise Oden has -- if he ever put it together. But he's got a lot of issues that have to be addressed (injuries, very obvious offensive and defensive deficiencies, his motor).

And believe me that doesn't mean I'm some Brook Lopez fan, by any means. I just find it stupefying why Oden has been compared continuously with elite big men given his body of work in college and the NBA (thus far) more resembles Benjamin's than Bill Russell's, Patrick Ewing's, etc.

If Oden gets it together, fine. I hope for his sake, he does develop into the player some people project him to be. But it's a little nauseating, given what he has brought to the table so far in his career.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Najee said:


> I said based on what I have seen of Greg Oden in college and the NBA so far, he looks like he should be compared to a more injury-prone version of Benoit Benjamin (good athleticism, seemingly indifferent motivation, save Benoit was more skilled at this stage) than some of the hall-of-fame centers that commonly come up.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, I've not been overly impressed with Oden since he was in high school. Like players like Benjamin, you can see some of the promise Oden has -- if he ever put it together. But he's a lot of issues that have to be addressed (injuries, very obvious offensive and defensive deficiencies, his motor).
> 
> And believe that doesn't mean I'm some Brook Lopez fan, by any means. I just find it stupefying why Oden has been compared continuously with big men given his body of work in college and the NBA (thus far) more resembles Benjamin's than Bill Russell's, Patrick Ewing's, etc.
> 
> If Oden gets it together, fine. I hope for his sake, he does develop into the player some people project him to be. But it's a little nauseating, given what he has brought to the table so far in his career.


So you really don't want to answer my question...


----------



## Najee

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



rocketeer said:


> so your argument then is that reggie evans is not a good rebounder?


No, my argument is you can distort any statistic without any context. Reggie Evans' rebound rate was high in 2004-05 because that is the only NBA skill he brings to the table -- if he slacked just the slightest, he was likely out of the NBA. But the rate was muted, IMO, because he wasn't a good enough player to warrant more minutes.

The same thing with Greg Oden -- the rebound rate doesn't mean much when on average he's spending half the game on the bench in foul trouble.



rocketeer said:


> oh and only 25% of oden's shots are dunks. not sure i'd call that the "bulk".


Yeah, playing "the smartest kid in the room" again. I said the bulk of Oden's offensive repetoire is a dunk. You're trying to twist it, when you know as well as I do that the reality is Oden's game is basically putbacks and dunks. He really has no offensive game outside of five feet.

Look, it's pretty evident Oden is your man. But let's call a spade a spade at this time, and stop trying to justify and rationalize what he is.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



rocketeer said:


> have you ever come up with an argument for why you think lopez is better than oden?


I havent?


----------



## Najee

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Dornado said:


> So you really don't want to answer my question...


So you want me to project into the future how a player's career is going to be in XYZ years down the road, based on a smattering of games? Sorry, I would feel more comfortable answering that question with more data.

I'm willing to take a wait-and-see approach with Greg Oden and Brook Lopez, so give me a call in two or three years. But based on what I have seen so far, it's safe to say Oden has a lot of work to do before his hall of fame bust is bronzed.

BTW, since you have issues with me comparing Oden to Benoit Benjamin so far in their respective careers, can you tell why you feel it doesn't make sense?


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Najee said:


> No, my argument is you can distort any statistic without any context. Reggie Evans' rebound rate was high in 2004-05 because that is the only NBA skill he brings to the table -- if he slacked just the slightest, he was likely out of the NBA. But the rate was muted, IMO, because he wasn't a good enough player to warrant more minutes.


I'm not sure that you've paid a lot of attention, but Reggie's rebrate has been high for his career. Even as Nutcracker Sweets nears 30 his rebrate remains around 19, which for a short PF is pretty good. Hell, it's a lot higher than than that 7' stud, Brook Lopez. The reason he doesn't get more time is that he's a 6'6"-6'7" post player. Those kinds of players generally end up being energy guys off the bench.


----------



## Najee

*Reggie Evans*



ehmunro said:


> I'm not sure that you've paid a lot of attention, but Reggie's rebrate has been high for his career. Even as Nutcracker Sweets nears 30 his rebrate remains around 19, which for a short PF is pretty good. Hell, it's a lot higher than than that 7' stud, Brook Lopez. The reason he doesn't get more time is that he's a 6'6"-6'7" post player. Those kinds of players generally end up being energy guys off the bench.


I've been aware of and following Reggie Evans' career ever since he played at Iowa, and he's always been a strong rebounder. I spoke about the 2004-05 season particularly because the people on www.whatifsports.com were taking that stat without any context and overvaluing his worth.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> I havent?


i mean you say he's statistically been better, but the stats don't really back that up.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

They don't? Must be why every single rookie ranking out has Oden over Lopez? Oh wait...that's not true, matter of fact its vice versa


----------



## Najee

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> They don't? Must be why every single rookie ranking out has Oden over Lopez? Oh wait...that's not true, matter of fact its vice versa


Don't you know? All other things being relatively equal, Greg Oden gets the nod because he's the one who has the bust in Springfield already. :sarcasm:


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> They don't? Must be why every single rookie ranking out has Oden over Lopez? Oh wait...that's not true, matter of fact its vice versa


so your argument now is the rookie rankings?


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Najee said:


> Don't you know? All other things being relatively equal, Greg Oden gets the nod because he's the one who has the bust in Springfield already. :sarcasm:


yet again bringing up expectations as if they relate to this discussion in any way. i can't say i'm surprised, but still.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



rocketeer said:


> so your argument now is the rookie rankings?


It seems you really like ring around the roses type discussions. You are just dancing back and forth on this issue right now. I'll elaborate more, see according to you, Oden is a better player than Brook because of hypothetical and secondary statistics. Stats which he supposedly can put up if he spends more time on the floor. Najee has been telling you for a good two or so pages now that Oden doesn't get those minutes because his play does not warrant it. Its no fault of Lopez that he seems to understand NBA refs better than Oden.

As for the rookie rankings, dude its a compilation of all stats, I definitely would trust the opinion of noted pundits over some guy on an internet board who can't admit when he is wrong. The people making those rankings are actually paid to do that. Its their job. They watch those games. See unlike you, they don't make up stats to back up their arguments. You won't see a guy like Hollinger claiming Oden is a better passer than Lopez because of a .01 difference in their apg.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> It seems you really like ring around the roses type discussions. You are just dancing back and forth on this issue right now. I'll elaborate more, see according to you, Oden is a better player than Brook because of hypothetical and secondary statistics. Stats which he supposedly can put up if he spends more time on the floor. Najee has been telling you for a good two or so pages now that Oden doesn't get those minutes because his play does not warrant it. Its no fault of Lopez that he seems to understand NBA refs better than Oden.


Or maybe, just maybe, it's because one of the rookies is playing on a team jockeying for postseason position and the other is playing on a team jockeying for lottery position. So the former team gives its extremely capable backup, who's a lot more experienced, extra time to maximise their chances of winning, while the other leaves their center out there because they don't care whether or not they win.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Nice, there comes the putting up good numbers on a bad winning team argument. So does this mean if roles are reversed, Oden will be getting 30 mpg on the Nets and Lopez will be getting 23 mpg on the Blazers?

I guess Mayo, Rose and Beasley wont be getting much time on the Blazers also because after all there are more experienced players at those positions for those teams. 

Its an extremely weak argument. Joel P is an average center, lets not act like he is a world beater. His minutes are up because Oden is playing more like the backup and not the starter. Search through some of the threads on Oden prior to this season or last for that matter, some said he was already a top 5 center EVEN before stepping on an NBA court.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> Nice, there comes the putting up good numbers on a bad winning team argument.* So does this mean if roles are reversed, Oden will be getting 30 mpg on the Nets and Lopez will be getting 23 mpg on the Blazers?*
> 
> I guess Mayo, Rose and Beasley wont be getting much time on the Blazers also because after all there are more experienced players at those positions for those teams.
> 
> Its an extremely weak argument. Joel P is an average center, lets not act like he is a world beater. His minutes are up because Oden is playing more like the backup and not the starter. Search through some of the threads on Oden prior to this season or last for that matter, some said he was already a top 5 center EVEN before stepping on an NBA court.


I actually think the bolded part is pretty much right... I think Oden would be playing substantially more minutes on the Nets who are weak at both the 4 and 5... especially with Boone missing extended time... Pryzbilla on the other hand is among the best defensive centers in the league, played major minutes with Portland last season, and is paired with an emerging star in Aldridge... also, Pryzbilla's minutes are down slightly this year, not up.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

And this is where I come in and quickly put that to rest. Frank rarely plays rookies, especially ones that don't prove they can stay on court. Its pretty much why CDR has been banished to the end of the bench. Josh Boone was the starting center for the Nets coming into the season, if not for injury, I doubt Brook will be starting right now. I can almost assure you that if Oden had played the way he did when the season started with the Blazers (you can find the article where they were coddling him, trying to lift his spirits), he would be coming off the bench.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> I guess Mayo, Rose and Beasley wont be getting much time on the Blazers also because after all there are more experienced players at those positions for those teams.


How much time has Bayless gotten over Steve Blake? How much do you really think that Beasley would be getting over Aldridge or Mayo over Roy?



HB said:


> Its an extremely weak argument. Joel P is an average center, lets not act like he is a world beater. His minutes are up because Oden is playing more like the backup and not the starter. Search through some of the threads on Oden prior to this season or last for that matter, some said he was already a top 5 center EVEN before stepping on an NBA court.


Godzilla may be average, but it's because he's a below average offensive player. He's always been a good rebounder and a rock solid post defender. So, yes, the playoff bound team wants to make sure they win, and are going to do whatever it takes to win, even if that means that Oden only plays 24 minutes a night.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> And this is where I come in and quickly put that to rest. Frank rarely plays rookies, especially ones that don't prove they can stay on court. Its pretty much why CDR has been banished to the end of the bench. Josh Boone was the starting center for the Nets coming into the season, if not for injury, I doubt Brook will be starting right now. I can almost assure you that if Oden had played the way he did when the season started with the Blazers (you can find the article where they were coddling him, trying to lift his spirits), he would be coming off the bench.


But Lopez is playing... and Boone did get hurt... so I don't get your point...


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> And this is where I come in and quickly put that to rest. Frank rarely plays rookies, especially ones that don't prove they can stay on court. Its pretty much why CDR has been banished to the end of the bench.


I think that might have _juuuuuuuuuust_ a little to do with the fact that while standing on the boardwalk in Atlantic City and trying to chuck basketballs into the Atlantic ocean he was only able to connect 25% of the time.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Beasley can play the 3 or 4. Unless of course you think Batum, Frye and Outlaw will glue him to the bench.

As for Blake, there's no way he gets more time ahead of guys like Rose and Mayo. I figure Mayo will be playing the point on that team. Roy's not moving over for him. Regarding Bayless, he's an undersized 2 guard. Playing him at the one or two will cause problems defensively. Rose and Mayo don't have the same problems. They have the NBA size.

As for your second statement, you do know you are basically saying, Oden isn't good enough right now to get time on a playoff bound team but is bad enough to play heavy minutes on a team headed for nowhere. At least that's what I get from your post. Brook Lopez would be playing more on the Blazers, because he actually has offensive skills that extend beyond the free throw line.



> But Lopez is playing... and Boone did get hurt... so I don't get your point...


My point is, Brook showed he could handle starter minutes, Oden hasn't.

Oh by the way, where's *Oden* on this list?


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> As for your second statement, you do know you are basically saying, Oden isn't good enough right now to get time on a playoff bound team but is bad enough to play heavy minutes on a team headed for nowhere. At least that's what I get from your post. Brook Lopez would be playing more on the Blazers, because he actually has offensive skills that extend beyond the free throw line.


Oden is playing 24 minutes a night for a playoff team. If he were playing in New Jersey, yeah, he'd probably be allowed to play as long as he could every single night, even when there was foul trouble. But because players tend to play a lot more conservatively after the fourth foul, and Portland has a perfectly good backup, who duplicates what Oden does, Portland opts to let him pick-up the slack. And, no, Brook Lopez wouldn't be playing 30 minutes a night for a playoff team.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Greg Oden is raw. Thats what I see everytime I watch him. He still needs more polish to his game. Look Oden has a bigger upside than Lopez, but when you actually watch Lopez play, his game is more polished than his Blazer counter part. You can slice and dice it however you want, heck you can even say Lopez is putting up stats on a bad team, but that bad team would be even worse without his good play. You can't take away the 11, 8 and 2 blocks away from him, because he is playing arguably the toughest position in basketball. And as someone who has watched the Nets for quite a while now, I am telling you, Frank hates playing rookies.


----------



## Ras

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> Beasley can play the 3 or 4. Unless of course you think Batum, Frye and Outlaw will glue him to the bench.


Beasley is only playing 2 more minutes a game then Oden.



> As for Blake, there's no way he gets more time ahead of guys like Rose and Mayo. I figure Mayo will be playing the point on that team. Roy's not moving over for him. Regarding Bayless, he's an undersized 2 guard. Playing him at the one or two will cause problems defensively. Rose and Mayo don't have the same problems. They have the NBA size.


I know they're not accurate, but these are the listings on NBA.com...

Bayless - 6'3, 200 lbs
Mayo - 6'4, 210 lbs
Rose - 6'3, 190 lbs

I know Rose is a lot "fuller" then Bayless, but to say he doesn't have the size for the NBA when he's roughly the size as the average point guard, and the roughly the size of the two people you're comparing him to, I don't think you can really claim that. I think if anything, it's Bayless' quality of play, not his size.



> As for your second statement, you do know you are basically saying, Oden isn't good enough right now to get time on a playoff bound team but is bad enough to play heavy minutes on a team headed for nowhere. At least that's what I get from your post. Brook Lopez would be playing more on the Blazers, because he actually has offensive skills that extend beyond the free throw line.


What about defense? Scoring obviously isn't Greg's strength right now, but that doesn't mean he's useless. He's supposedly good on defense, and a good rebounder, which many big men can't really say. He would unquestionably get more minutes on New Jersey, and Brooks would be brought on slower on the Blazers. I don't think that's debatable considering the shape of the two teams; when you're on a playoff bound team as a rookie, you're generally going to get less minutes, and vice versa on a lottery bound team. Yes, sure the Nets are fighting for the 8th east spot, but they don't even need a .500 record to get in, whereas Portland is 8 games above .500.



> My point is, Brook showed he could handle starter minutes, Oden hasn't


How can you honestly claim that? How do you know Oden wouldn't on a team like the Nets? How do you know how Brooks would fare on the Blazers? It's a lot of circumstance, and we're not really going to know the answer to that. Getting starters minutes on the Nets is different then starters minutes on the Blazers, unquestionably.





> Oh by the way, where's *Oden* on this list?


I don't think quoting sports journalists helps your opinion. Yes, you can say they get paid for what they do, but that doesn't instantly mean they're knowledgeable, or that they even know what they're talking about. Charley Rosen gets paid for his opinion, but I wouldn't ever use him to back up an argument.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

I am sorry Ras, I am not going to even try responding to that. I have been in arguments with you before, I don't have it in me to go back and forth trying to prove points you won't concede to. Its not worth it. If you think Oden is better than Lopez, good for you. I personally think as Najee mentioned that Oden was a very overrated center. Again on this same site, some claimed he was a top 5 center even before playing an NBA game. Lets see him justify that. Also I do think its a testament to Brook Lopez' that he has had the type of season he is putting together so far, despite being picked a good 9 spots after Oden.


----------



## Ras

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> I am sorry Ras, I am not going to even try responding to that. I have been in arguments with you before, I don't have it in me to go back and forth trying to prove points you won't concede to. Its not worth it. If you think Oden is better than Lopez, good for you. I personally think as Najee mentioned that Oden was a very overrated center. Again on this same site, some claimed he was a top 5 center even before playing an NBA game. Lets see him justify that. Also I do think its a testament to Brook Lopez' that he has had the type of season he is putting together so far, despite being picked a good 9 spots after Oden.


I'm not sure what it is you think I am, but we haven't spoken in probably a year; people can grow and evolve. I never said Oden was a top 5 centre. I never said Oden was more polished. I never said Oden was even better. I just picked out aspects of your argument that I thought were somewhat flawed. I haven't even seen much of either, but I will say without hesitation that Oden looks more raw. Brooks seems to be having a hell of a season, a better one then Oden. I never disagreed with you on that front, and I stand with you on that.

My point was that Brooks is benefitting from being able to play through rookie type things moreso then Greg Oden would because of their team situations. If Oden was on the Nets, he'd get more minutes, and Brooks would get less on the Blazers. Would that make Oden more polished? No, I don't think so. Would it make him better? Again, no I don't think so. But it would adjust the numbers a bit. I just don't think that's the best support for your argument I guess.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

But thats the thing though, it feels like you are the same Ras. Especially going by your first post in this thread. Which funny enough is also like rocketeer. You guys are looking for arguments, poring over details to point out this and that.

Again you guys are assuming that Oden would be getting more minutes on the Nets. Thats not the case with Lawrence Frank. Ehmunro said the Nets are headed for the lottery, shouldn't CDR and Sean Williams be playing more? You have to show you can play, especially as a rookie, to warrant time with Frank. Oden looks raw, and his foul issues would not go well with Frank.


----------



## Ras

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> But thats the thing though, you are the same Ras. Which funny enough is also like rocketeer. You guys are looking for arguments, poring over details to point out this and that.


This might seem strange, but I actually really thought about it, and you're right. This might seem weirder, but thank you for pointing it out, because I probably wouldn't have realized though my perspective that I was just looking for an argument. Thinking about it now, that's all it really was. I seem to have done that at the heart of a lot of my actions around here, and well, I apologize. So, :cheers: I suppose.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Nah no need to be sorry, I am the same way too. No harm, no foul.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> It seems you really like ring around the roses type discussions. You are just dancing back and forth on this issue right now. I'll elaborate more, see according to you, Oden is a better player than Brook because of hypothetical and secondary statistics. Stats which he supposedly can put up if he spends more time on the floor. Najee has been telling you for a good two or so pages now that Oden doesn't get those minutes because his play does not warrant it. Its no fault of Lopez that he seems to understand NBA refs better than Oden.


so now you decide the stats i'm using are hypothetical and secondary because that's what najee said. interesting.

the thing is, i said that oden was the better player of the two. you said he's not and then said the stats backed you up. then i showed you how the stats didn't back you up and you now are preaching rookie rankings. and no, these stats are not something he can supposedly do if he spends more minutes on the floor. they are simply what he does when he's on the floor.



> As for the rookie rankings, dude its a compilation of all stats, I definitely would trust the opinion of noted pundits over some guy on an internet board who can't admit when he is wrong. The people making those rankings are actually paid to do that. Its their job. They watch those games. See unlike you, they don't make up stats to back up their arguments. You won't see a guy like Hollinger claiming Oden is a better passer than Lopez because of a .01 difference in their apg.


rookie rankings are not a compilation of all stats. the actually compilation of stats(hollinger's per) rankings oden ahead of lopez. rookie rankings are simply one man's opinion. they have absolutely ridiculous opinions all the time. earlier this year, there was an article on espn's front page that said that no one gave texas tech a chance to beat oklahoma state in football. currently there have been several different sports writers writing articles about how the texas football strength of schedule is what cost them a shot at playing for the national championship when in reality every strength of schedule measure said texas had a harder schedule than ou at the point ou passed texas to play in the big 12 championship game and then national title game(and playing in those two tougher games then made ou pass texas in strength of schedule). i know neither of those examples are basketball but they were the first two that came to mind for me.



> Look Oden has a bigger upside than Lopez, but when you actually watch Lopez play, his game is more polished than his Blazer counter part.


saying lopez's game is more polished really is meaningless.



> If you think Oden is better than Lopez, good for you. I personally think as Najee mentioned that Oden was a very overrated center. Again on this same site, some claimed he was a top 5 center even before playing an NBA game. Lets see him justify that. Also I do think its a testament to Brook Lopez' that he has had the type of season he is putting together so far, despite being picked a good 9 spots after Oden.


if we were talking about who was doing a better job of living up to or exceeding expectations, this would be relevant.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

They are hypothetical because it takes into account what so and so would do if so and so were spending x amount of time on the court. But once again, which has been repeated so many times on here, Mr Oden doesnt get more minutes because of his play and because of foul trouble. They are secondary stats. 

Whilst rookie rankings are in fact opinions, I find it funny that guys paid to actually watch the game would have failed to notice if Oden was a better player than Lopez. You do realize that the league needs a guy like Oden to succeed right?
As for Hollinger, you are right Oden does have a nice PER, but isn't he also leading guys like Westbrook, Rose and Mayo in that aspect too? No one in their right mind would say he has played better than any of those players.



> saying lopez's game is more polished really is *meaningless.*


Which must be why Lopez leads Oden in most statistical categories right? Meaningless indeed. 



> if we were talking about who was doing a better job of living up to or exceeding expectations, this would be relevant.


Its all part and parcel of the argument. One guy was picked number 1, and isn't playing like one, the other was picked 10 and is playing much better than his position warrants. Again, Oden on this boards was said to be a top 5 center from the get go.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> They are hypothetical because it takes into account what so and so would do if so and so were spending x amount of time on the court. But once again, which has been repeated so many times on here, Mr Oden doesnt get more minutes because of his play and because of foul trouble. They are secondary stats.


they aren't hypothetical at all. i haven't given you any per 36 minute or per 48 minutes stats. the stats i'm giving you are what oden does when oden is on the court and they are better than what lopez does when lopez is on the court. since they do play a similar amount of minutes(lopez getting 6-7 more per game), i'd say it's fine to compare those numbers.



> Whilst rookie rankings are in fact opinions, I find it funny that guys paid to actually watch the game would have failed to notice if Oden was a better player than Lopez. You do realize that the league needs a guy like Oden to succeed right?


the guys paid to watch games constantly get things wrong. 



> Which must be why Lopez leads Oden in most statistical categories right? Meaningless indeed.


if lopez led oden is most statistical categories, that might mean something. saying that he's more polished means nothing.



> Its all part and parcel of the argument. One guy was picked number 1, and isn't playing like one, the other was picked 10 and is playing much better than his position warrants. Again, Oden on this boards was said to be a top 5 center from the get go.


expectations are irrelevant to who has been the better player this season. evaluating them individually, expectations matter. in a discussion about which of the two players have been better, expectations really don't belong in any way.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Okay Lopez leads Oden in most statistical categories. How do you counter that?

Thats simple enough and true enough isn't it?


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Wow, the last like four pages of this thread have been about Oden VS Lopez, the funny thing is, neither one of them are even in consideration for ROY.

But, just to contribute to the mood of the thread, Lopez has been playing better the Oden, that's not really all that debatable, especially considering that Lopez has been exceeding his expectations, while Oden on the other hand has fallen terribly short.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



VanillaPrice said:


> especially considering that Lopez has been exceeding his expectations, while Oden on the other hand has fallen terribly short.


how is that relevant to this discussion in any way?


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> Okay Lopez leads Oden in most statistical categories. How do you counter that?
> 
> Thats simple enough and true enough isn't it?


that just takes me back to this post i guess.



> it shouldn't be that difficult as i have said it on multiple occasions and given the reasons. but i'll tell you again one more time and leave it at that.
> 
> oden is a better scorer(and has been this season). this is because he's a more efficient scorer(high fg%, efg%, points per shot, etc) while also getting to the free throw line more often(he makes the same amount that lopez attempts) and being assisted on less of his baskets(50% for oden to 60% for lopez). his points per game are lower, but his points per minute are pretty similar and he only play 6-7 less minutes a game so it's not like there's some huge difference and comparing their per minute numbers is deceiving.
> 
> he's also a better rebounder(and has been this season). this can be seen with his 7 rebounds in 23 minutes against lopez's 8 rebounds in 29.5 minutes. this also is illustrated by their rebound rate(oden 34.4 while lopez is 29.6).
> 
> oden also is a better passer(and has been this season). this can be seen by their assists, assists/turnover ratio, and their passer rating(this and rebound rate both from 82games.com). it also can come from just watching their games where you can see oden is good at things like passing out of doubles.
> 
> we also have the fact that oden draws more attention from opposing teams. in the post he is often double teamed and when going head to head with lopez, everytime oden caught the ball in the post he either scored or was fouled by lopez. that however was a very small sample of 4 times, after which oden came out of the game and was not used as a part of the offense when he returned in limited minutes.
> 
> oden also has a slight lead over lopez in per.
> 
> and then there is defense where i believe oden is better even though lopez has superior block numbers.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Currently on Knickerblogger.net, there are 195 players ranked according to PER. Greg Oden is not even on the list. Brook is 87th. Brook's TS% is 52.3 which takes out your whole efficiency argument. Brook is averaging more points, more rebounds, more blocks and shooting a better FT%. These stats cant be skewed. It is what it is. You can take your rebound rate and use it as an argument, thats fine. But again, Brook leads Oden in most statistical categories. That is not debatable. The passing argument is laughable as neither player comes close to averaging over an assist a game. Its not in their repertoire yet.

P.S. I am more of a TS% fan than eFG% especially where big men are concerned.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HB said:


> Currently on Knickerblogger.net, there are 195 players ranked according to PER. Greg Oden is not even on the list. Brook is 87th. Brook's TS% is 52.3 which takes out your whole efficiency argument. Brook is averaging more points, more rebounds, more blocks and shooting a better FT%. These stats cant be skewed. It is what it is. You can take your rebound rate and use it as an argument, thats fine. But again, Brook leads Oden in most statistical categories. That is not debatable. The passing argument is laughable as neither player comes close to averaging over an assist a game. Its not in their repertoire yet.
> 
> P.S. I am more of a TS% fan than eFG% especially where big men are concerned.


i'm not sure why knickblogger.net doesn't list oden, but just because he isn't listed doesn't mean his per isn't better.

and ts% doesn't change my argument at all. lopez is at 52.3%, oden at 58.2%.


----------



## Diable

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

ODen wouldn't qualify for Knickerblogger because of his minutes...They require a percentage of the teams total.He is only playing 23 per game and missed some games.He's on hollinger's page,at least if you sort by rookies .If you sort by position Oden is 19th among centers


Actual truth is that none of the rookies have outstanding PERs and this is quite normal.It's unusual if a rookie does have a very high per and that usually indicates a guy can really produce.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Diable said:


> ODen wouldn't qualify for Knickerblogger because of his minutes...They require a percentage of the teams total.He is only playing 23 per game and missed some games.


that's what i thought, but i went to knickblogger and it has a few guys listed nowhere close in minutes or games played. i noticed krstic there and i think joel anthony as well. not that it really matters.


----------



## Diable

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Actually you can just go to the team pages on knickerblogger to find anyone who doesn't make the main advanced statistics page.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



> and ts% doesn't change my argument at all. lopez is at 52.3%, oden at 58.2%.


It doesn't but then again as I have told you earlier, most of Oden's points come from 5 feet and closer. It also puts to rest your 40% is bad for a footer argument that you have brought up before.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Oden has a better PER, TS% and RbR. His ToR is higher then Lopez and that typically gets better with time. Hard to not to say Oden is better. That being said Lopez isn't that far behind Oden so the Nets should be very happy considering he was the 10th versus the 1st pick in the draft. Also Oden gets nearly all his points off feeds and putbacks. Lopez from what I've seen has to do a bit more to create points since the Nets aren't as good the Blazers


----------



## Boob-No-More

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

All this arguing about who is better, Oden or Lopez, after half a season of NBA ball, seems a bit pointless. After all, Adam Morrison finished ahead of LaMarcus Aldridge, Paul Millsap and Rajon Rondo in Rookie of the Year voting. Anyone here want Morrison on their team over those other guys?

Let's revisit this in 2 - 3 years when both players are closer to reaching (or not reaching) their full potential.

BNM


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Boob-No-More said:


> All this arguing about who is better, Oden or Lopez, after half a season of NBA ball, seems a bit pointless. After all, Adam Morrison finished ahead of LaMarcus Aldridge, Paul Millsap and Rajon Rondo in Rookie of the Year voting. Anyone here want Morrison on their team over those other guys?
> 
> Let's revisit this in 2 - 3 years when both players are closer to reaching (or not reaching) their full potential.
> 
> BNM


that's like saying we shouldn't argue about who will win the championship, we should just wait and see who wins it instead.


----------



## Boob-No-More

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



rocketeer said:


> that's like saying we shouldn't argue about who will win the championship, we should just wait and see who wins it instead.


Not really. The championship is always important. You win a ring, and you can always say you were a champion. 

Who has played better after half a season of NBA ball is pretty meaningless (as shown by the Adam Morison example). At this point in his rookie season, Adam Morrison was leading all rookies in scoring. Is he the best player from his rookie class? No, not even close. Using stats from half a season of play to argue who is the better player, Oden or Lopez seems quite pointless. Neither one of them has done anything to distinguish themselves as first ballot Hall of Famers at this point.

Twenty years from now, everyone on last year's Celtics team, from Kevin Garnett to Brian Scalabrine, will still be showing off their rings and talking about winning a championship. 20 years from now, do you think Brooks Lopez or Greg Oden will be bragging about what a great three months they had at the beginning of their rookie year? Boy, I sure hope not (for both of their sakes).

BNM


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



rocketeer said:


> how is that relevant to this discussion in any way?


This is a thread that is dealing with rookies, Oden and Lopez are both rookies, one of them is exceeding what people would think they would do, and the other isn't, this isn't the Oden vs. Lopez thread, so yes, it is relevent to the thread.

Don't get your panties in a bunch just because I don't praise every single putback Oden makes, and that i'm not impressed with his 8/7 averages.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



VanillaPrice said:


> This is a thread that is dealing with rookies, Oden and Lopez are both rookies, one of them is exceeding what people would think they would do, and the other isn't, this isn't the Oden vs. Lopez thread, so yes, it is relevent to the thread.


it isn't a thread asking who has done a better job of meeting expectations, it is a thread all about who has been the best player thus far. who has done a better job of meeting expectations is absolutely irrelevant when discussing which players have been better than other players. it isn't really a difficult concept to understand.


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

You know what else isn't a difficult concept to understand, that Oden isn't even a top five rookie when he was supposed to be Shaq V2, so either way Oden comes up way short.


----------



## Boob-No-More

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



VanillaPrice said:


> You know what else isn't a difficult concept to understand, that Oden isn't even a top five rookie when he was supposed to be Shaq V2, so either way Oden comes up way short.


The season isn't even close to over. So, it's a little premature to say Oden isn't even a top five rookie. Remember at this point two years ago, Adam Morrison was a top 2 rookie.

In case you haven't noticed, Oden continues to improve and put up another double:double tonight with 18 points and 14 rebounds. As Oden continues to learn how to avoid cheap fouls, and continues to recover from his microfracture surgery, he will continue to improve. I wouldn't be surprised to see him average both more PPG and more RPG than Lopez by the end of the season. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

BNM


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Provided the other rookies taper off that is


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

When was Morrison every a top 2 rookie?? He was always extremely inefficient and I mean "always" being from the very beginning of his career


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



VanillaPrice said:


> You know what else isn't a difficult concept to understand, that Oden isn't even a top five rookie when he was supposed to be Shaq V2, so either way Oden comes up way short.


no one with any basketball knowledge at all compared oden to shaq. so if you think oden was supposed to be the next shaq, that says enough about you right there.

and absolutely greg oden has been a disappointment thus far this season. there is no question about that at all. he has been disappointing. however, him being disappointing also has absolutely no relevance as to whether or not he's better than other rookies this season. his expectations play a part in evaluating him individually, but when evaluating which player is better(from two or more players), how they've met expectations is absolutely meaningless(unless of course the expectations for the two players were exactly the same).


----------



## Boob-No-More

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Pioneer10 said:


> When was Morrison every a top 2 rookie?? He was always extremely inefficient and I mean "always" being from the very beginning of his career


Morrison won NBA Eastern Conference Rookie of the Month for November 2006:

http://www.nba.com/rookies/rom_061201.html

At the time, Morrison lead all rookies in scoring at 15.3 PPG. By comparison, Rudy Gay who won Western Conference ROM was averaging at 8.7 PPG.

Morrison was also ranked first in the T-Mobile NBA Rookie report through mid-December and continued to lead all rookies in scoring until Brandon Roy came back from his heal injury and passed him in late January of 2007.

Morrison's performance continued to taper off through his rookie season, but he still finished second in scoring among all rookies that year. Yes, by the end of the season, his percentages were horrible, but they weren't that bad initially.

I'm not a Morrison fan (quite the opposite), but I followed that ROY race very closely from start to finish, and through the first 2 months of the season, Morrison was definitely considered one of the top two rookies in that class. Remember, Roy was injured, Aldridge wasn't getting any PT and Bargnani hadn't shown much yet. Gay was doing OK, but like the others, wouldn't really start to take of until later in the season. Basically, Morrison started strong and got progressively worse. Roy, Aldridge, Gay, and Bargnani all started slow and all got better as the season went on.

BNM


----------



## Blue

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



rocketeer said:


> *no one with any basketball knowledge at all compared oden to shaq. so if you think oden was supposed to be the next shaq, that says enough about you right there.*
> 
> and absolutely greg oden has been a disappointment thus far this season. there is no question about that at all. he has been disappointing. however, him being disappointing also has absolutely no relevance as to whether or not he's better than other rookies this season. his expectations play a part in evaluating him individually, but when evaluating which player is better(from two or more players), how they've met expectations is absolutely meaningless(unless of course the expectations for the two players were exactly the same).


LOL! Go read old Blazer threads from this summer. I mean they were damn near convinced that Oden would be on that Shaq/Russell/Malone type status almost immediately. If you even attempted to tell them otherwise or that he wasnt THAT nice, in a freindly way, then you would get flamed.


----------



## GNG

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Blue Magic said:


> LOL! Go read old Blazer threads from this summer. I mean they were damn near convinced that Oden would be on that Shaq/Russell/Malone type status almost immediately. If you even attempted to tell them otherwise or that he wasnt THAT nice, in a freindly way, then you would get flamed.


Of course, a good majority of the fans who used to post on that board were (and still are, I'd imagine) rabid imbeciles.


----------



## HKF

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Cinco de Mayo said:


> Of course, a good majority of the fans who used to post on that board were (and still are, I'd imagine) rabid imbeciles.


:rofl2::drool2:


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Boob-No-More said:


> Let's revisit this in 2 - 3 years when both players are closer to reaching (or not reaching) their full potential.


Because in 2-3 years it won't be worth revisting. Hell, next month this comparison may be laughable. They are on different curves. Lopez is a solid pick and what you see is what you get. Oden has bigger fish to fry.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Boob-No-More said:


> Let's revisit this in 2 - 3 years when both players are closer to reaching (or not reaching) their full potential.


Because in 2-3 years it won't be worth revisting. Hell, next month this comparison may be laughable. They are on different curves. Lopez is a solid pick and what you see is what you get. Oden has bigger fish to fry.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Blue Magic said:


> LOL! Go read old Blazer threads from this summer. I mean they were damn near convinced that Oden would be on that Shaq/Russell/Malone type status almost immediately. If you even attempted to tell them otherwise or that he wasnt THAT nice, in a freindly way, then you would get flamed.


That in no way contradicts rocketeer's assertion.


----------



## Accelerate

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Meanwhile, Kevin Love's having a great game tonight against the Bulls. He's absolutely owning the offensive and defensive boards at timely occasions, he's quick on his feet (he had a great defensive sequence where he kept in front of a driving Tyrus Thomas), he had a clutch mid-range jumper and he really is a great outlet passer and he's had a number of impressive low-post moves.


----------



## aussiestatman

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Blue Magic said:


> LOL! Go read old Blazer threads from this summer. I mean they were damn near convinced that Oden would be on that Shaq/Russell/Malone type status almost immediately. If you even attempted to tell them otherwise or that he wasnt THAT nice, in a freindly way, then you would get flamed.


i was one of those blazer fans. my opinion is that by about 3 seasons in he will be the dominating big man in this league along with dwight. then by career end, i believe he will be counted as top 20 all-time! even this second half of his rookie year, i'm looking for him to put up top 5 all-nba rebounding figures. by season's end definately all-rookie either over or with brook lopez.


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



aussiestatman said:


> i was one of those blazer fans. my opinion is that by about 3 seasons in he will be the dominating big man in this league along with dwight. then by career end, i believe he will be counted as top 20 all-time! even this second half of his rookie year, i'm looking for him to put up top 5 all-nba rebounding figures. by season's end definately all-rookie either over or with brook lopez.


Good to see a realistic Portland fan.

Anyway, Rose with another good game tonight, 18/2/7 with two steals and a block.


----------



## Diable

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

The whole story would be that Rose scored 18 points on 19 shots while having seven assists and five turnovers.It's not quite as pretty when you tell it the way it actually is however.This is not a great night unless your standards are pretty low,especially when you consider that everyone of those missed shots and every one of those turnovers represents the possession that was the margin of defeat.


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

^ I didn't even look at the boxscore, I just saw the play by play, I guess I should have looked up a little more about the game instead of just posting on first instinct.

My bad.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Diable said:


> The whole story would be that Rose scored 18 points on 19 shots while having seven assists and five turnovers.It's not quite as pretty when you tell it the way it actually is however.This is not a great night unless your standards are pretty low,especially when you consider that everyone of those missed shots and every one of those turnovers represents the possession that was the margin of defeat.


Whoa daddy. Caught the last play with the Bulls down by 1 and Rose screwed the pooch. The early heavy minutes have takent its toll on Rose and Mayo.

Eric Gordon looks like he might also make the transition to good combo PG in which he has some point skills. Like Westbrook, I have yet to see someone keep them out of the lane. He is a better ball handler than I thought and his shot is money.

DeAndre Jordan also bears mentioning. Has no clue how to play basketball, however, that boy goes up high for boards and Oops. His hops+length is tempting. If I am the Clippers, I get rid of all of those old bones (Baron, Camby, Kaman) and rebuild around Gordon, Jordan and Thornton. Just like Golden State, they really fricked up by not sticking with the young guys and saving their money for later.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Boob-No-More said:


> Morrison won NBA Eastern Conference Rookie of the Month for November 2006:
> 
> http://www.nba.com/rookies/rom_061201.html
> 
> At the time, Morrison lead all rookies in scoring at 15.3 PPG. By comparison, Rudy Gay who won Western Conference ROM was averaging at 8.7 PPG.
> 
> Morrison was also ranked first in the T-Mobile NBA Rookie report through mid-December and continued to lead all rookies in scoring until Brandon Roy came back from his heal injury and passed him in late January of 2007.
> 
> Morrison's performance continued to taper off through his rookie season, but he still finished second in scoring among all rookies that year. Yes, by the end of the season, his percentages were horrible, but they weren't that bad initially.
> 
> I'm not a Morrison fan (quite the opposite), but I followed that ROY race very closely from start to finish, and through the first 2 months of the season, Morrison was definitely considered one of the top two rookies in that class. Remember, Roy was injured, Aldridge wasn't getting any PT and Bargnani hadn't shown much yet. Gay was doing OK, but like the others, wouldn't really start to take of until later in the season. Basically, Morrison started strong and got progressively worse. Roy, Aldridge, Gay, and Bargnani all started slow and all got better as the season went on.
> 
> BNM


Morrison shot 39% from the freakin field when he won that award. No credible watcher really thought he would end up winning ROY. He basically had a green light to jack it up


----------



## Boob-No-More

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Pioneer10 said:


> Morrison shot 39% from the freakin field when he won that award. No credible watcher really thought he would end up winning ROY. He basically had a green light to jack it up


No need to tell me that. I'm not a Morrison fan - quite the opposite, in fact. Your beef isn't with me. It's with those who selected him ROM and had him listed as No. 1 in the T-Mobile Rookie Report at nba.com. Those aren't my opinions, and whether you consider them credible is up to you. I'm just pointing out there were so-called experts who, at the time, considered Morrison a top 2 rookie - I'm not agreeing with those opinions.

BNM


----------



## aussiestatman

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



MemphisX said:


> Whoa daddy. Caught the last play with the Bulls down by 1 and Rose screwed the pooch. The early heavy minutes have takent its toll on Rose and Mayo.
> 
> Eric Gordon looks like he might also make the transition to good combo PG in which he has some point skills. Like Westbrook, I have yet to see someone keep them out of the lane. He is a better ball handler than I thought and his shot is money.
> 
> DeAndre Jordan also bears mentioning. Has no clue how to play basketball, however, that boy goes up high for boards and Oops. His hops+length is tempting. If I am the Clippers, I get rid of all of those old bones (Baron, Camby, Kaman) and rebuild around Gordon, Jordan and Thornton. Just like Golden State, they really fricked up by not sticking with the young guys and saving their money for later.


deandre, 20 rebounds, who was the last rookie to acheive that?


----------



## Dornado

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



aussiestatman said:


> deandre, 20 rebounds, who was the last rookie to acheive that?


I know Joakim Noah did it as a rookie last year, not sure if any rookies have done it this year, I doubt it...


----------



## Diable

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Jordan is like a blank slate.Everyone was projecting him to be a lottery pick,then they got him into workouts and found out he didn't know how to play the game.He's certainly got the physical tools,but you really have to work on the not knowing how to play the game thing.It certainly gives him a lot of room for improvement though.Apparently he'd not done anything before that game against the Lakers...That's what a third of his production all year.


----------



## Boob-No-More

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



aussiestatman said:


> deandre, 20 rebounds, who was the last rookie to acheive that?


Before you get too excited and name Deandre Jordan the next great big man...

The last rookie to pull down 20 boards in a game was Aaron Gray with 22 rebounds (and 19 points) on 4/16/2008.

As already mentioned, Joakim Noah also had a 20 rebound game last season. As did Al Horford.

BNM


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Diable said:


> The whole story would be that Rose scored 18 points on 19 shots while having seven assists and five turnovers.It's not quite as pretty when you tell it the way it actually is however.This is not a great night unless your standards are pretty low,especially when you consider that everyone of those missed shots and every one of those turnovers represents the possession that was the margin of defeat.


Rose is a 20 year old rookie who does all of Chicago's ball handling. He turns it over 2.6 times in 37 minutes. That's actually really good for a guy doing the majority of ball handling and it's less than a whole lot of great ball handlers and great point guards. Additionally his shooting percentage is better than pretty much every superstar in the league in their rookie year. LeBron, Paul, etc. I really don't understand why you're picking on him for these things. 

The only thing I'm worried about with Rose is getting bored or content. I think he attacked the hoop harder in his first 20 games than he has his last 20. I don't know if that's him getting too comfortable or if he is trying to focus on learning to play the point guard position the best way possible for the Bulls.


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

^ It's also a combination of some other teams starting to figure out that the Bulls only go as far as he goes, and the best way to beat them is to double him and make him work hard to get his points. 

I wouldn't drive to the basket as much anymoe if I was getting manhandled down there without getting the calls too.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

I'm not sure what's the point of jumping on Diable's posts when he was absolutely correct: simply that Rose really didn't have a good game despite scoring 18 points. Now if you want to talk about a large sample size that's a completely different argument. Paul FYI had a much higher TS% then Rose his first year: 54.6 vs 50.3. Rose has really going to have to improve his shooting.


----------



## Najee

*Greg Oden's upside*



Blue Magic said:


> LOL! Go read old Blazer threads from this summer. I mean they were damn near convinced that Oden would be on that Shaq/Russell/Malone type status almost immediately. If you even attempted to tell them otherwise or that he wasnt THAT nice, in a freindly way, then you would get flamed.


Exactly. I remember saying I felt Greg Oden's upside and profile reminded me of Artis Gilmore's (a player who, IMO, should be in the Basketball of Fame) and I remember people like GregOden and Mrjayremmie trying to argue with me that I somehow was shortchanging Oden.

IMO, I feel if Oden's career is comparable to Gilmore's that would be considered meeting expectations.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Pioneer10 said:


> I'm not sure what's the point of jumping on Diable's posts when he was absolutely correct: simply that Rose really didn't have a good game despite scoring 18 points.


Nobody said he had a great game, which is why I don't understand the need to nitpick a game at random to point out turnovers and shot efficiency in a rookie. Those are extremely typical rookie behaviors, even in really great players.


----------



## aussiestatman

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

oden was good again today
last 5 games he's averaging 16.4 at 66%. 11.6 reb and 1.4 b
its a big if, i concede, but if he can extend that the rest of the season, it would be top 5 all-nba rebounding and fg% [even if that dropped to 56%]for the second half of the season, and top 20 blocks.

that would be fulfilling his potential for a rookie season and get him all rookie honours


----------



## aussiestatman

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

dwight in his rookie year was 12 and 10 with 1.7b


----------



## Boob-No-More

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Oden is starting to get more consistent. He's had five very solid games in a row. That's the first time he's had five straight games scoring in double figures all year. He's still not 100% physically, but is getting closer every day.

While it's far from a given but if he averages 15 PPG and 11 RPG for the last 37 games of the season, he'll end up at 11.7 PPG and 9.1 RPG - not too far behind Dwight's rookie numbers. And, Dwight averaged 32.8 MPG his rookie year compared to Oden's current 23.5 MPG.

Also, look for Oden's blocks to increase as he cuts down on his fouls. With all the foul trouble he's been having, he's been very reluctant to go for the block lately for fear of picking up a foul and getting yanked out of the game. Even though he finished with five fouls tonight, he only had two fouls through three quarters and was able to play much more aggressive defense in the 4th quarter. He ended up with 3 BLKs, one goal tending and a whole lot of altered shots (including one where he definitely got a piece of the ball, but didn't get credit for the block).

If he finishes the year at around 11/9/1.5, I think that will be pretty good for a rookie coming off microfracture surgery - especially give his slow start and limited minutes so far.

BNM


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

That Lopez guy tonight, 24pts, 17rebs, 4 blocks. Not bad for the 10th pick.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Nobody said he had a great game, which is why I don't understand the need to nitpick a game at random to point out turnovers and shot efficiency in a rookie. Those are extremely typical rookie behaviors, even in really great players.


Umm Patchwork reread the post Diable's replied too: VP did say Rose had a good game


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Rose put in a 26/6 game with no turnovers as the Bulls upset the Suns and Rose outshined Nash.


----------



## Diable

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

I turned the channel at the end of that game.Hinrich was on the floor down the stretch when the bulls locked it up and Rose was on the sidelines.Rose didn't look entirely pleased when they showed him going into a timeout.


----------



## King Joseus

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Diable said:


> I turned the channel at the end of that game.Hinrich was on the floor down the stretch when the bulls locked it up and Rose was on the sidelines.Rose didn't look entirely pleased when they showed him going into a timeout.





> Derrick Rose sat out he final 6:42 of Saturday's win because he felt pain in his left foot. He also asked to come out of the game early in the third quarter.
> 
> It might sound alarming. But Rose said he was told the injury is not serious and wouldn't bother getting an X-ray on Saturday night. He called it a sprain on the top of his left foot.
> 
> "It's been hurting for a while," Rose said. "But I haven't dunked in so long. Tonight when I had a chance, it stung a little bit. They said it's really not that serious. I should be fine, just got to treat it."
> 
> Rose, who scored 26 points in 31 minutes, left for good after a two-handed fastbreak dunk that gave the Bulls 101-91 lead.
> 
> "His foot wasn't feeling right," Vinny Del ***** said. "Right when he said that, I just wanted to make sure he was all right. I think he'll be fine, but they'll examine him and get a better sense of it."


http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=268695&src=150


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



VanillaPrice said:


> Rose put in a 26/6 game with no turnovers as the Bulls upset the Suns and Rose outshined Nash.


But he missed 7 shots, and had one of his shots blocked, and fouled someone. He'll have to work on that.


----------



## HKF

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Nash is the worst defensive point guard probably in the history of the league. If he isn't taking charges, he isn't doing anything out there. Such bad fundamentals for such a great player. It's obvious he just doesn't care about D.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HKF said:


> Nash is the worst defensive point guard probably in the history of the league. If he isn't taking charges, he isn't doing anything out there. Such bad fundamentals for such a great player. It's obvious he just doesn't care about D.


I definitely think he's care: he just doesn't have the lateral quickness nor size to keep guys in front of him. His dribbling and shooting allow him to make up for his lateral quickness on offense but not defense.


----------



## GNG

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

O.J. Mayo with a career-high tying 33 points tonight. OK, against Washington. Career high night regardless.


----------



## f22egl

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

OJ couldn't resist dunking in the final 2 points, even though the Grizzlies could have dribbled out the clock. I would have done the same thing in a video game.


----------



## uncutsports

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

No spam


----------



## The Krakken

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



HKF said:


> Nash is the worst defensive point guard probably in the history of the league. If he isn't taking charges, he isn't doing anything out there. Such bad fundamentals for such a great player. It's obvious he just doesn't care about D.


HKF...where do you find the pictures for your avatars?


----------



## ShOwTiMe 15

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

hold up i can understand why rose should win ROY but mayo?...beasley has to be #2 in the running.... first of all the mayo plays nearly 40 minutes a game to beasley's 24 minutes..mayo is avg just 6 points more? mayo also attempt nearly 18 shots per game while beasley shoots 11...mayo has shot the ball nearly 800 times this yr while beasley is at 500...im sure if beasley started and played the amount of minutes of either of the top rookies played... this topic wouldnt even be discussed...bc beasley would be miles away from everybody

this kid is by far much more superior than rose or mayo...and you could just see it in his play ,hes finally learning how to be an nba star ...he is better, and will be a double double machine before next yr even start...

Rose+mayo dont come close to beasley


----------



## GNG

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



ShOwTiMe 15 said:


> hold up i can understand why rose should win ROY but mayo?...beasley has to be #2 in the running.... first of all the mayo plays nearly 40 minutes a game to beasley's 24 minutes..mayo is avg just 6 points more? mayo also attempt nearly 18 shots per game while beasley shoots 11...mayo has shot the ball nearly 800 times this yr while beasley is at 500...im sure if beasley started and played the amount of minutes of either of the top rookies played... this topic wouldnt even be discussed...bc beasley would be miles away from everybody
> 
> this kid is by far much more superior than rose or mayo...and you could just see it in his play ,hes finally learning how to be an nba star ...he is better, and will be a double double machine before next yr even start...
> 
> Rose+mayo dont come close to beasley


Too bad the Rookie of the Year Award is based on reality instead of projected stats and hypotheses.


----------



## HKF

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



The Krakken said:


> HKF...where do you find the pictures for your avatars?


The interwebs are a wonderful tool my friend. The girl lives in North Carolina too.


----------



## Luke

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



ShOwTiMe 15 said:


> hold up i can understand why rose should win ROY but mayo?...beasley has to be #2 in the running.... first of all the mayo plays nearly 40 minutes a game to beasley's 24 minutes..mayo is avg just 6 points more? mayo also attempt nearly 18 shots per game while beasley shoots 11...mayo has shot the ball nearly 800 times this yr while beasley is at 500...im sure if beasley started and played the amount of minutes of either of the top rookies played... this topic wouldnt even be discussed...bc beasley would be miles away from everybody
> 
> this kid is by far much more superior than rose or mayo...and you could just see it in his play ,hes finally learning how to be an nba star ...he is better, and will be a double double machine before next yr even start...
> 
> Rose+mayo dont come close to beasley


Sorry but i'll take the athletic phenomon pure point guard in Rose before i'd ever take a tweener like Beasley. It also helps my decision that Rose is about ten times the player that Beasley is right now, is leading his team, actually is good enough to start, and has the higher potential.

So let me get this straight, Beasley is over Mayo in your opinion because you think that he will be better? If so then why don't we give Oden the award, he's been the most talked about rookie.

The fact is that Beasley has been terribly dissapionting, can't get the starting nod over Marion/Haslem, and is an absolutly awful defender, and LOL at Beasley would be miles ahead of everybody if he was given playing time, he's simply not better then the other players in the draft to this point, and although you may hate to accept it, it's true. He's certainly behind Rose/Mayo/Westbrook and probobly Lopez as well, when he was supposed to come in and take the ROY award easily, he can't average 15 a game, nor can he grab five rebounds, or even one freaking assist.

To say that Beasley is anywhere near Rose/Mayo/Westbrook is absolutly crazy, and just proves that your a homer.


----------



## HB

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*

Brook with another strong game. 22 pts 12rebs and 2 blocks. Maybe its time to start including him in this ROY discussion.


----------



## Basel

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden vs. Brook Lopez (ROY Discussion and tracki*

His name has been included in the thread title.


----------



## King Joseus

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden vs. Brook Lopez (ROY Discussion and tracki*



Basel said:


> His name has been included in the thread title.


How 'bout Westbrook?


----------



## Basel

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon (ROY Discussion & Track*

How's that? :biggrin:


----------



## King Joseus

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon (ROY Discussion & Track*



Basel said:


> How's that? :biggrin:


Haha - that'll do it. Definitely a good bunch of rookies this year.


----------



## Adam

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



VanillaPrice said:


> Sorry but i'll take the athletic phenomon pure point guard in Rose before i'd ever take a tweener like Beasley. It also helps my decision that Rose is about ten times the player that Beasley is right now, is leading his team, actually is good enough to start, and has the higher potential.
> 
> So let me get this straight, Beasley is over Mayo in your opinion because you think that he will be better? If so then why don't we give Oden the award, he's been the most talked about rookie.
> 
> The fact is that Beasley has been terribly dissapionting, can't get the starting nod over Marion/Haslem, and is an absolutly awful defender, and LOL at Beasley would be miles ahead of everybody if he was given playing time, he's simply not better then the other players in the draft to this point, and although you may hate to accept it, it's true. He's certainly behind Rose/Mayo/Westbrook and probobly Lopez as well, when he was supposed to come in and take the ROY award easily, he can't average 15 a game, nor can he grab five rebounds, or even one freaking assist.
> 
> To say that Beasley is anywhere near Rose/Mayo/Westbrook is absolutly crazy, and just proves that your a homer.


Beasley PER 15.6 
Rose PER 15.52

Heat record 26-21 
Bulls record 21-28

Beasley 6' 8" 
Rose 6' 3"

Beasley 38.0 3PT% 
Rose 27.8 3PT%

Beasley 3.1 FTA (In 24 minutes) 
Rose 3.1 FTA (In 37 minutes)


----------



## Boob-No-More

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



The '93 Heat said:


> Beasley PER 15.6
> Rose PER 15.52
> 
> Heat record 26-21
> Bulls record 21-28
> 
> Beasley 6' 8"
> Rose 6' 3"
> 
> Beasley 38.0 3PT%
> Rose 27.8 3PT%
> 
> Beasley 3.1 FTA (In 24 minutes)
> Rose 3.1 FTA (In 37 minutes)


Hey, this is fun.

Oden PER 17.6
Beasley PER 15.6 

Blazers record 30-17
Heat record 26-21 

Oden 7'0"
Beasley 6' 8" 

Oden 55.5 FG%
Beasley 45.1 FG%

Oden 3.8 FTA (In 23 minutes)
Beasley 3.1 FTA (In 24 minutes)

BNM


----------



## Adam

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Boob-No-More said:


> Hey, this is fun.
> 
> Oden PER 17.6
> Beasley PER 15.6
> 
> Blazers record 30-17
> Heat record 26-21
> 
> Oden 7'0"
> Beasley 6' 8"
> 
> Oden 55.5 FG%
> Beasley 45.1 FG%
> 
> Oden 3.8 FTA (In 23 minutes)
> Beasley 3.1 FTA (In 24 minutes)
> 
> BNM


1. I wouldn't take Beasley over Oden.

2. I was just posting the stats to show that the idea that the two players are "incomparable" is ludicrous. Beasley and Rose are comparable as is Oden.


----------



## anru321

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



The '93 Heat said:


> Beasley PER 15.6
> Rose PER 15.52
> 
> Heat record 26-21
> Bulls record 21-28
> 
> Beasley 6' 8"
> Rose 6' 3"
> 
> Beasley 38.0 3PT%
> Rose 27.8 3PT%
> 
> Beasley 3.1 FTA (In 24 minutes)
> Rose 3.1 FTA (In 37 minutes)





VanillaPrice said:


> Sorry but i'll take the athletic phenomon pure point guard in Rose before i'd ever take a tweener like Beasley. It also helps my decision that Rose is about ten times the player that Beasley is right now, is leading his team, actually is good enough to start, and has the higher potential.
> 
> So let me get this straight, Beasley is over Mayo in your opinion because you think that he will be better? If so then why don't we give Oden the award, he's been the most talked about rookie.
> 
> The fact is that Beasley has been terribly dissapionting, can't get the starting nod over Marion/Haslem, and is an absolutly awful defender, and LOL at Beasley would be miles ahead of everybody if he was given playing time, he's simply not better then the other players in the draft to this point, and although you may hate to accept it, it's true. He's certainly behind Rose/Mayo/Westbrook and probobly Lopez as well, when he was supposed to come in and take the ROY award easily, he can't average 15 a game, nor can he grab five rebounds, or even one freaking assist.
> 
> To say that Beasley is anywhere near Rose/Mayo/Westbrook is absolutly crazy, and just proves that your a homer.


Both you (vanilla) and showtime are being ridiculous with the statements. Beasley is NOT leaps n bounds better than Rose + Mayo. But it's not like hes out of their league either. I will agree that Rose and Mayo are having better individual seasons, but Beasley is in a very different situation from those teams. He is on a winning team unlike those 2 guys. His defense is keeping him on the bench but he's doing really well as the 6th man instant offense guy (And his D is getting better gradually). 13.4ppg/5.5rbpg in 24.6 mpg isn't bad. But I will still agree that Mayo / Rose have had better seasons so far. Lopez is also having a very nice season. 

Now Westbrook being better than Beasley is laughable IMO since he is shooting terrible percentages on one of the worst teams in the league. I have no doubt Beasley could put up better numbers in OKC with the green light.

Going to 93 Heat's rebuttal, you can't use team record as in indication of better player since Rose is the best player on his team and Mayo might be too unless you prefer Gay.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon (ROY Discussion & Track*

I think right now the Brandon ROY race is wide open...Rose, Mayo, Oden, Lopez, Gordon, Westbrook, Love and Beasley.

Rose and Mayo have the edge but they can be overcome by strong finishes by any of the other rookies.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon (ROY Discussion & Track*

Rose, Mayo, and Westbrook showing again tonight why this is a three man race.

Awesome nights for all three of them.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Kevin Love has been added to the title of the thread - 16 points & 14 boards today. He should be at least in the discussion with these other rookies.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Basel said:


> Kevin Love has been added to the title of the thread - 16 points & 14 boards today. He should be at least in the discussion with these other rookies.


Yep, his first start in awhile also.

This class is amazing and I feel for the next draft class.


----------



## HB

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

The Stanford pick had 12/12 and 2 blocks today too. David Thorpe thinks he might be the most skilled big man that comes out from the draft class.

Interestingly enough, Ryan Anderson has been playing well too. Just a testament to how deep this draft was.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



HB said:


> The Stanford pick had 12/12 and 2 blocks today too. David Thorpe thinks he might be the most skilled big man that comes out from the draft class.
> 
> Interestingly enough, Ryan Anderson has been playing well too. Just a testament to how deep this draft was.


Can't really pay attention to stats against the Wiz though. They are so injured that they only dressed 8 and they started Songaila at center.:uhoh:

Just curious, what makes Kevin Love a PF and not a center? He obviously has translated to the NBA despite his height so how is he not a center?


----------



## Smithian

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



The '93 Heat said:


> Can't really pay attention to stats against the Wiz though. They are so injured that they only dressed 8 and they started Songaila at center.:uhoh:
> 
> Just curious, what makes Kevin Love a PF and not a center? He obviously has translated to the NBA despite his height so how is he not a center?


You have Al Jefferson and Kevin Love... Who are you putting at center?


----------



## Adam

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Smithian said:


> You have Al Jefferson and Kevin Love... Who are you putting at center?


Kevin Love with no hesitation.


----------



## HB

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



The '93 Heat said:


> Can't really pay attention to stats against the Wiz though. They are so injured that they only dressed 8 and they started Songaila at center.:uhoh:
> 
> Just curious, what makes Kevin Love a PF and not a center? He obviously has translated to the NBA despite his height so how is he not a center?


Well in that case, how about 19pts 12 rebs 2 blks against the premier big man in the East.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

MIA v CHA - Mario Chalmers with 16/13, DJ Augustin with 27/6.

Not necessarily ROY candidates but very nice picks from the draft.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



HB said:


> Well in that case, how about 19pts 12 rebs 2 blks against the premier big man in the East.


and his field goal percentage on the season is over 50% now. he's been pretty impressive lately(or at least putting up some impressive numbers).


----------



## The Krakken

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Yeah, he's playing well. But suddenly, so is Rose. He killed Kidd last night.


----------



## HB

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

I follow both, and I think both would be putting up better numbers if the friggin refs would call fouls in favor of rooks. These guys get abused like no other.


----------



## The Krakken

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



HB said:


> I follow both, and I think both would be putting up better numbers if the friggin refs would call fouls in favor of rooks. These guys get abused like no other.


No doubt. Rose's lack of FT attempts is ALARMINGLY low, considering all the abuse he takes.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



HB said:


> I follow both, and I think both would be putting up better numbers if the friggin refs would call fouls in favor of rooks. These guys get abused like no other.


that's a big part of the reason oden has been in so much foul trouble.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Oden is in so much foul trouble because he fouls a lot.There isn't any way around it.If he plays in the nba another hundred years the stuff he's doing is still going to be called.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Diable said:


> Oden is in so much foul trouble because he fouls a lot.There isn't any way around it.If he plays in the nba another hundred years the stuff he's doing is still going to be called.


i'm not going to deny that oden has committed a lot of dumb fouls(and just normal fouls as well), but he also has definitely has gotten called for a lot of fouls because he's a rookie big man.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Oden will smarten up. They said he would have to adjust to the NBA in that way because up until this point he could get by with bad shotblocking mechanics and still dominate defensively. He can't now, so he'll learn. 

BTW, PER is a terrible stat to use for comparing players who play drastically different minutes (Rose/Beasley).


----------



## The Krakken

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Oden will smarten up. They said he would have to adjust to the NBA in that way because up until this point he could get by with bad shotblocking mechanics and still dominate defensively. He can't now, so he'll learn.
> 
> BTW, PER is a terrible stat to use for comparing players who play drastically different minutes (Rose/Beasley).


Its a terrible stat to use for comparing players who play drastically different roles.

Rose has better assist number. Better TO numbers. MUCH Higher shooting %. Higher TS%. Scores more. More Assists per 40. Less TO/40. All while having a lower Usage Rate.

Westbrook has a higher PER based solely on a slightly higher FT% and a higher rebounding rate.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

I agree with you Krakken. I take Rose over Beasley all day. I don't like tweener forwards and I think being Bulls fans have turned us off to them even more. We've had enough of them. But what do we know?


----------



## HB

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Oden has not played better than Lopez this season period


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



The Krakken said:


> Its a terrible stat to use for comparing players who play drastically different roles.
> 
> Rose has better assist number. Better TO numbers. MUCH Higher shooting %. Higher TS%. Scores more. More Assists per 40. Less TO/40. All while having a lower Usage Rate.
> 
> Westbrook has a higher PER based solely on a slightly higher FT% and a higher rebounding rate.


I think Westbrook also scores slightly more per possession then Rose.
They're numbers are essentially the same PER of 16 vs 15.8. There TS% is barely different at 0.3%. Rose slighlthy more assists/poss, less TO/poss but Westbrook more points and rebounds per possession. It's a wash between the two

It's pretty obvious both teams are happy with each player. Clearly Chicago wouldn't have drafted anybody else then Rose knowing everything they know now and OKC seems to be vindicated in drafting Westbrook that high. It will be fun to watch the two as there both freakish athletes.

That being said even though they're essentially the same numbers I'd still vote for Rose ahead of Westbrook in ROY. Even though there both PG's, Durant really is the focus for OKC and Rose already is responsible for being Chicago's playmaker


----------



## Wade County

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

^ Agreed. But I still feel Oden will be the better player.

IMO, Lopez peak = 17/10/2.5 blk
Oden peak = 20/12/3

Oden's too big and wide to not become a 20pt scorer. He's raw at the moment, but he's gonna be a handful. Lopez has suprised with how polished he is, but i dont see the same ceiling with him. He's a great pick at 10 though.


----------



## HB

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Eddy Curry also has a wide body, and is infinitely more skilled than Oden (offensively that is). I dont see him averaging 20 pts. Oden does have a lot of potential though, if he gets to the FT line a lot, 20 ppg might be possible. Lopez reminds me a lot of Pau, especially with the way he uses his length.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

You could have made a case for Horford over Durant last season, Scola too. Not this season though, not even close. That's how it's going to be with Oden. Compare him with Lopez all you want now, but those days are numbered.


----------



## Wade County

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



HB said:


> Eddy Curry also has a wide body, and is infinitely more skilled than Oden (offensively that is). I dont see him averaging 20 pts. Oden does have a lot of potential though, if he gets to the FT line a lot, 20 ppg might be possible. Lopez reminds me a lot of Pau, especially with the way he uses his length.


When Eddy Curry last was healthy, he was around 18ppg a year or so ago.

And thats Eddy Curry. Greg Oden is a better player than Eddy Curry. Playing next to a guy like Roy, and with Aldridge hittin those jumpers - then paint is wide open for Oden to dominate.

I dont think he'll be Dwight Howard good, but he may get close to Yao Ming good.


----------



## HB

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Yao good? Thats a lot of work on his offense, especially since he cant hit a shot consistently from 18 feet out.



> You could have made a case for Horford over Durant last season, Scola too. Not this season though, not even close. That's how it's going to be with Oden. Compare him with Lopez all you want now, but those days are numbered.


Just curious, how many times have you seen Brook Lopez play? What do you know about his game?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



HB said:


> Just curious, how many times have you seen Brook Lopez play? What do you know about his game?


A few times this year and many times in college. I know that he is an average athlete with a polished game on both ends. He is a very good pick but isn't going to get much better. Him and Oden are at a stand-still this season and that's with Oden trying to find his role on a very good team, coming off of the most fragile surgery in sports, in his rookie year to boot. Oden has more to overcome than Lopez, and obviously much higher expectations. Yet again, it's a stand-still. Once those outside factors even out a bit, it won't be close.


----------



## Wade County

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



HB said:


> Yao good? Thats a lot of work on his offense, especially since he cant hit a shot consistently from 18 feet out.
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious, how many times have you seen Brook Lopez play? What do you know about his game?


Im not comparing Oden to Yao's game, more so their numbers when all is said and done. Im aware Yao is a terrific shooter and Oden doesnt look to translate that way.

Ive seen Lopez play probably 5-6 times this year, and a few in college. Not a lot, but enough to get a feel for his game and how I expect his progression in this league to happen. I am generally reasonably accurate with my assumptions on players. 

Hes gonna be a good player, but he's not gonna be Oden good. There's no shame in that, the Nets should be stoked they picked him up at 10.


----------



## Blue

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Sir Patchwork said:


> A few times this year and many times in college. I know that he is an average athlete with a polished game on both ends. He is a very good pick but isn't going to get much better. Him and Oden are at a stand-still this season and that's with Oden trying to find his role on a very good team, coming off of the most fragile surgery in sports, in his rookie year to boot. Oden has more to overcome than Lopez, and obviously much higher expectations. Yet again, it's a stand-still. Once those outside factors even out a bit, it won't be close.


Um, they have not been @ a stand-still AT ALL this season.... Brook has clearly been better and more consistent throughout. Re-check those #'s, cuz I dont know how or where you see them @ a stand-still... :thinking2: 

I see Oden as a guy with potential and a guy who has potential to be good, but whenever I watch him he doesn't really play with passion or look 'into' the games. His footwork needs improvement & he cant seem to ever stay out of foul trouble. The latter has been an issue i have seen in Oden since HS. He definitely has potential to be the best big in this class, but you cant just make **** up and assume he will be the best i the long run. This is 'ROY', and there's no way your fooling anyone to believe Oden has been better than Brook Lopez, this year.


----------



## HB

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Sir Patchwork said:


> A few times this year and many times in college. I know that he is an average athlete with a polished game on both ends. He is a very good pick but isn't going to get much better. Him and Oden are at a stand-still this season and that's with Oden trying to find his role on a very good team, coming off of the most fragile surgery in sports, in his rookie year to boot. Oden has more to overcome than Lopez, and obviously much higher expectations. Yet again, it's a stand-still. Once those outside factors even out a bit, it won't be close.


Funny enough his game in college is nothing like the way he's been playing on the Nets. I rarely saw him taking 18ft jumpers at Stanford, but with the Nets he's hitting those nicely. He was also known as the non-athletic twin and the poor shot blocker. Guess scouts were wrong on that huh?
When you say he's an above average athlete, I am once again thinking maybe you haven't watched him play recently. The guy's a good athlete for his size. Runs the floor well, cleans up nicely on the boards, really good shot blocker and has a few posterizations to his name this season. Oden's a better rebounder and more athletic, but I chuckle when you make predictions about Lopez like its a foregone conclusion with him. Dude's just *20*. His post game still needs work, he could get stronger, and his court vision could improve. If Oden's offense comes along as it should, then maybe he will be a consistent 20/10 player. If refs were calling fouls the way it should, Brook would be getting 5 or 6 fts a game. He shoots 82% from the line right now. Do the math....I have no doubt that Brook can and will average 20ppg at some point, simply because he plays like he is 7 feet.






He wasn't playing like this at Stanford. Just because he doesnt pull down the rim doesn't mean he isn't a good athlete. See the dunk at 1:26 and the dunk on Kaman for emphasis.



> Um, they have not been @ a stand-still AT ALL this season.... Brook has clearly been better and more consistent throughout. Re-check those #'s, cuz I dont know how or where you see them @ a stand-still...


Thanks glad there's someone else who sees this.


----------



## Accelerate

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

I spent twenty minutes writing a post and it failed so I have to redo it. 

Sure Lopez isn't athletic in the sense that he doesn't possess a 35-inch vertical but he's very mobile for a guy his size. He's also proven to be pretty durable. You'd think that a 20-year old rookie center his size would show signs of wear over time as he's playing significant minutes and playing the most games he's ever played in his life but he only seems to be improving with every game.

As HB said, you can't really evaluate Lopez by using his college game; his game has just picked up a lot since training camp. Not only is he developing that mid-range shot but in Stanford, his pick-and-roll game was virtually nonexistent whereas the Nets run the P&R between him and either Vince or Devin on a large bulk of their offensive sets. He's also learned to finish like a big man (thank you, D-Wade).

It's not even up for debate that Brook has had - so far - the better rookie campaign. However, Oden has all the physical tools - and room and a great environment to grow and develop - to become a dominant center in the future and most likely has greater upside than Lopez just because of his sheer strength and athleticism. That said, I believe Lopez' own potential is being downplayed. I can see him adding a couple of go-to moves to his low-post arsenal (he doesn't really have a go-to move yet). He hasn't even begun work on a hook shot, which is basically the need-to-know move for every big man. Not to mention he can shoot it better than a guard at the free-throw line. Brook also has the much higher IQ between him and Oden plus he's shown a great willingness to work on his game to a point where he's been called a perfectionist. I haven't heard that about Oden.

That said, both of these guys are only 20 years old! They have years of basketball ahead of them.


----------



## Ruff Draft

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

I think this will end with Mayo, Rose, Love, and Lopez being the top 4. Mayo will pull away with ROY.


----------



## anru321

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

I will have to say that Brook Lopez is making me a believer. He would look nice next to Beasley in Miami. 

You guys need the Matrix over there send us Lopez!


----------



## Blue

*Re: OJ Mayo vs. Derrick Rose vs. Greg Oden (ROY Discussion and tracking)*



Blue Magic said:


> Yeah, why is Oden still in the discusion? In the 1st post you say Beasley isnt getting the minutes to win the award, but then proceed top Oden in your top 3 when he is getting less minutes than Beasley?? :thinking2: In all honesty, Fernandez is the best rookie in Portland @ this point.
> 
> @ this point I would say overall:
> 
> *1) D. Rose
> 2) OJ Mayo
> 3) Brooklyn Lopez
> 4) Russel Westbrook
> 5) Rudy Fernandez*
> 6) DJ Augustine
> 7) Beasley
> 8) Love
> 9) Super Mario
> 10)Thompson/Gasol


That was in December. Im still liking my top 5 I posted originally, and the top 10 too, for the most part. I would probably swap out Rudy with Chalmers at #5 tho and put Rudy at #9... and probably move DJ Augustin down acouple notches and move Beasely and Love up. I think the #1 spot is wide open for debate right now. Oden is creepin' his way back into probably the #10 spot on my list....


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

With Jefferson down, I expect Love to make a hard push down the stretch.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Sir Patchwork said:


> A few times this year and many times in college. I know that he is an average athlete with a polished game on both ends. He is a very good pick but isn't going to get much better. Him and Oden are at a stand-still this season and that's with Oden trying to find his role on a very good team, coming off of the most fragile surgery in sports, in his rookie year to boot. Oden has more to overcome than Lopez, and obviously much higher expectations. Yet again, it's a stand-still. Once those outside factors even out a bit, it won't be close.


Why are you muxing up the topic of the thread, RotY, with the subject of future potential? And how exactly with 32 games left are Brook's "days numbered" before it "won't be close?" There's no way that Oden can raise his averages in the categories of points and rebounds to where it wouldn't be close at the end of this season with only 32 games left. The only thing that won't be close is the lead Lopez will have over Oden in PPG. Maybe you were talking about the future? Once again, the thread is about RotY, and it's like you're intentionally trying to confound everyone about your argument by switching in and out of talking about future and present and even throwing in excuses like injuries and surgeries. Just let the numbers do the talking because they both play the same position.


----------



## gi0rdun

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Pretty interesting race here. I still think it's between Rose and Mayo. If the Bulls make the playoffs its his award to win.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



HB said:


> Thanks glad there's someone else who sees this.


of course, you can actually check the numbers like i did previously in this thread and see what happens.

i'm not looking to get into this same argument every two weeks though. we can revisit it at the end of the season.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Mayo has 16 rebounds right now...not a typo. 20 points and 5 assists to go along with those boards.


----------



## Avalanche

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

22/16/5 from Mayo

depleted Hornets but still, nice hustle on the boards


----------



## Ruff Draft

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Kevin Love is about to rise up in the rankings fast.


----------



## YoYoYoWasup

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Marreese Speights had 24 and 7 against the Suns tonight, off the heels of a 15 and 6 performance against the Heat. What's really impressive is how he's accumulating these numbers in relatively modest minutes played.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

kevin love is certainly going to have a lot of opportunities to move up the list and if he keeps up his improved play since the new year he has a shot at winning rookie of the year. but it definitely isn't a sure thing that love is going to be successful as the biggest post threat for the twolves. he's going to see a lot more attention from defenses now and not get open opportunities that playing alongside jefferson got him.


----------



## JT

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Basel said:


> Mayo has 16 rebounds right now...not a typo. 20 points and 5 assists to go along with those boards.


the kid is a damn baller. plus he's been driving the rim more recently which I wanted to see. no need to play the conservative game (i.e. jumpshots) even though its so effective. a rookie with fresh legs should be running the paint.


----------



## HB

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Speights and Ryan Anderson have been playing well for their respective teams. They wont be in the ROY discussion, but its a testament to how deep this draft is.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Mayo had sixteen rebounds,but the hornets were playing without their top three rebounders(Paul,West and Chandler) and they shot 29%...The hornets missed 62 shots and the Grizz missed 49.Sixteen is a lot of rebounds for anyone,but in context it's not as impressive as it would be otherwise.I understand this is Mayo's first double double all season too.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Diable said:


> Mayo had sixteen rebounds,but the hornets were playing without their top three rebounders(Paul,West and Chandler) and they shot 29%...The hornets missed 62 shots and the Grizz missed 49.Sixteen is a lot of rebounds for anyone,but in context it's not as impressive as it would be otherwise.I understand this is Mayo's first double double all season too.


You missed me with that one. I can't think of a time 16 rebounds is not impressive especially by a guard.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



MemphisX said:


> You missed me with that one. I can't think of a time 16 rebounds is not impressive especially by a guard.


when the opponent is missing their top 3 rebounders and the teams combine to miss 111 shots, a guard getting 16 rebounds isn't as impressive as if the opposing team had all their players and the teams shot a reasonable percentage.

of course, it definitely is still impressive.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

In his first game without Al Jefferson by his side, Kevin Love went 6/14 for 15 points, 11 rebounds, 1 block & 0 turnovers.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Blue Magic said:


> Um, they have not been @ a stand-still AT ALL this season.... Brook has clearly been better and more consistent throughout. Re-check those #'s, cuz I dont know how or where you see them @ a stand-still... :thinking2:


Oden actually has a higher Player Efficiency Rating than Lopez. The difference in them this season is basically minutes per game. Oden is playing less because he plays on a good team with a great big man rotation. In the minutes they are playing, they've been about equally as productive.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



The '93 Heat said:


> Maybe you were talking about the future? Once again, the thread is about RotY, and it's like you're intentionally trying to confound everyone about your argument by switching in and out of talking about future and present and even throwing in excuses like injuries and surgeries. Just let the numbers do the talking because they both play the same position.


Obviously I was talking about the future. Don't be dumb. I've said this year they've been about even and in the future I don't believe it'll be that close. Their PER's are about equal, so I *am* letting the numbers do the talking because they back up my stance on their present standing. These are rookies, so obviously people are going to talk about their potential and their future. You're just not thinking clearly if you expect people not to.


----------



## Blue

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Oden actually has a higher Player Efficiency Rating than Lopez. The difference in them this season is basically minutes per game. Oden is playing less because he plays on a good team with a great big man rotation. In the minutes they are playing, they've been about equally as productive.


No, Oden is playing less because he couldnt stay out of foul trouble consistently. Brook knows how to stay on the floor for an entire game and his coach can trust him to make the right plays and the smart plays. GO sometimes doesnt even finish games over Joel Pryzbilla... I think that has to be more of an issue of not being trusted enough by your coach, and whether you're on a good team or a bad team Joel Pryzbilla is a guy that he should be able to beat out. He's getting more consistent, but looking @ the body of work,Brook Lopez has been better thus far.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Blue Magic said:


> GO sometimes doesnt even finish games over Joel Pryzbilla... I think that has to be more of an issue of not being trusted enough by your coach, and whether you're on a good team or a bad team Joel Pryzbilla is a guy that he should be able to beat out.


you do realize that joel is a very good defensive player and has been the best rebounder in the league this season, right?


----------



## Blue

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



rocketeer said:


> you do realize that joel is a very good defensive player *and has been the best rebounder in the league this season, right?*


Just stop. :lol:


----------



## Boob-No-More

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



rocketeer said:


> you do realize that joel is a very good defensive player and has been the best rebounder in the league this season, right?


The Blazers have one of the best, most efficient center rotations in the league. Przybilla would start on 2/3 of the teams in the league. If you look at their combined numbers, the Blazers get amazing production out of the center position. Tonight was another example of just how productive this tandem is. In 47 minutes they combined for 22 points on 10 - 12 shooting, 23 rebounds, 4 blocks and 3 steals. In their previous game, they combined for 20 points on 8 - 12 shooting, 17 rebounds and 6 blocks.

For the season:

PER: Oden = 17.6, Przybilla = 15.7
FG%: Oden = .555, Przybilla = .688
TRB%: Oden = 19.5, Przybilla = 22.3

And, they both have much higher offensive ratings (ORTg) than defensive ratings (DRTg). For those that don't know, offensive rating is how many points you score per 100 possessions and defensive rating is how many points your opponent scores per 100 possessions. So, a high offensive rating, combined with a low defensive rating is very desirable.

ORTg: Oden = 115, Przybilla = 131
DRTg: Oden = 106, Przybilla = 105
Diff: Oden = +9, Przybilla = +26

Of course, Przybilla has the advantage of playing many of his minutes against the other team's second unit, but he's always been a excellent defender (and rebounder), and has really improved his offensive game. His shooting touch and FT shooting have both improved dramatically. He doesn't get many touches on offense, but when he does he converts on them at a very efficient rate. The combined play of these two, at *both* ends of the court, is a huge reason the Blazers are currently 13 games over 0.500.

And I don't mean to bash Lopez. He's having a great rookie year, and is a pleasant surprise from this very deep, excellent draft class. His per game stats are better than Oden's, but as mentioned, he plays more minutes and gets more opportunities to score playing on a team that's 5 games under 0.500 and doesn't have as many offensive weapons as the Blazers. Here's how his "other" numbers compare to Oden:

PER: Oden = 17.6, Lopez = 17.0
FG%: Oden = .555, Przybilla = .508
TRB%: Oden = 19.5, Przybilla = 16.2

ORTg: Oden = 115, Lopez = 106
DRTg: Oden = 106, Przybilla = 107
Diff: Oden = +9, Przybilla = -1

So, Oden scores 9 more points per 100 possessions than his opponent, and Lopez actually gives up one more point per 100 possessions than he scores.

That said, if ROY voting was today, I suspect Lopez would get more votes than Oden. Why? Because the people who vote for these things don't look at stats like PER, TRB%, ORTg and DRTg. The stat that influences them the most is PPG, and if that's close, then they start to look at RPG, APG, BPG, and since he plays more minutes than Oden and gets almost twice as many shots per game (10.4 vs. 5.8), Lopez has a significant advantage in PPG and that's all many voters will care about.

BNM


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Blue Magic said:


> Just stop. :lol:


all you're doing with that is showing that you're completely ignorant on the subject.


----------



## Boob-No-More

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Blue Magic said:


> Just stop. :lol:


He has a higher TRB% (22.3) than any other player in the league. Yes, players that play twice as many minutes average more RPG, as do players whose teams play at a faster pace that take (and miss) more shots per game, but in terms of percentage of total rebounds, there is no one in the league better than Joel Przybilla. But, that shouldn't really be a surprise, he was 2nd in the league in TRB% last season.

BNM


----------



## Blue

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

I figured you guys had one of those advanced stats under your sleeve, but that does not make him the best 'best rebounder' in the league because of that. If he played more minutes than he did & had more responsibility on both ends of the court like others who play more actually minutes do, i would bet my *** that his TRB #'s would fall. When he does is play in limited minutes and just has one main focus to exert all his energy, I would hope his #'s would be high in that one specific aspect. But if a guy like Dwight, Yao, Duncan, etc, just played 20 minutes and could exert all their energy on just one or two aspects of the game like rebounding, they could have sexier TRB%'s or whatever as well.... But they actually need to distribute their energy across a more broader spectrum. Dwight is a guy who plays way more minutes and has more responsibilities yet, still has a higher RP48 rate.... Your telling me if he just played 20 minutes and focused all that energy on just rebounding and for that 20mins he wouldnt be more productive? If Tim Duncan could play just 20 minutes and exert all his energy soley to rebounding he wouldn't have better #'s? Please, dont kid yourselves. Pryzbilla is NOT the best rebounder in the league. I will repeat, he is NOT! the best rebounder in the league. With GO's size and strength, he should be able to beat him out for those late game minutes.... If he cant, then that's on him. He's not playing behind some all-world talent, Pryz is just an average NBA player. That's no excuse for GO not to be playing more.


----------



## Boob-No-More

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Blue Magic said:


> I figured you guys had one of those advanced stats under your sleeve, but that does not make him the best 'best rebounder' in the league because of that. If he played more minutes than he did & had more responsibility on both ends of the court like others who play more actually minutes do, i would bet my *** that his TRB #'s would fall. When he does is play in limited minutes and just has one main focus to exert all his energy, I would hope his #'s would be high in that one specific aspect. But if a guy like Dwight, Yao, Duncan, etc, just played 20 minutes and could exert all their energy on just one or two aspects of the game like rebounding, they could have sexier TRB%'s or whatever as well.... But they actually need to distribute their energy across a more broader spectrum. Dwight is a guy who plays way more minutes and has more responsibilities yet, still has a higher RP48 rate.... Your telling me if he just played 20 minutes and focused all that energy on just rebounding and for that 20mins he wouldnt be more productive? If Tim Duncan could play just 20 minutes and exert all his energy soley to rebounding he wouldn't have better #'s? Please, dont kid yourselves. Pryzbilla is NOT the best rebounder in the league. I will repeat, he is NOT! the best rebounder in the league. With GO's size and strength, he should be able to beat him out for those late game minutes.... If he cant, then that's on him. He's not playing behind some all-world talent, Pryz is just an average NBA player. That's no excuse for GO not to be playing more.


Wow, that's a whole lot of rambling just to say Joel Przybilla isn't in the same class of player as Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan or Yao Ming. I thought that was pretty obvious and nobody ever made the claim that he was. However, that doesn't change the fact that he pulls down a higher percentage of available rebounds when he's in the game than they do. He's a much better rebounder than Yao - but not a better overall player (again, nobody made that claim so your argument is a strawman).

And why doesn't Oden play more minutes? He's a foul prone rookie coming off microfracture surgery - and he plays on a team with a back-up center who would be starting on over half the teams in the league. Again, nobody is claiming Przybilla is an all-star, but centers that can do at least one or two things very well are scarce in this league. Most teams would be lucky to have one. The Blazers have two and it's a luxury. In addition to rebounding, Joel is a very good defender, sets good picks and shoots an insanely high FG% (he's smart and knows his limits). He is the ultimate role player. A guy who contributes to his team's success without taking shots away from the more talented offensive players on his team. Again great role player, not all-star talent.

BNM


----------



## Blue

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Boob-No-More said:


> Wow, that's a whole lot of rambling just to say Joel Przybilla isn't in the same class of player as Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan or Yao Ming. I thought that was pretty obvious and nobody ever made the claim that he was. However, that doesn't change the fact that he pulls down a higher percentage of available rebounds when he's in the game than they do. He's a much better rebounder than Yao - but not a better overall player (again, nobody made that claim so your argument is a strawman).
> 
> And why doesn't Oden play more minutes? He's a foul prone rookie coming off microfracture surgery - and he plays on a team with a back-up center who would be starting on over half the teams in the league. Again, nobody is claiming Przybilla is an all-star, but centers that can do at least one or two things very well are scarce in this league. Most teams would be lucky to have one. The Blazers have two and it's a luxury. In addition to rebounding, Joel is a very good defender, sets good picks and shoots an insanely high FG% (he's smart and knows his limits). He is the ultimate role player. A guy who contributes to his team's success without taking shots away from the more talented offensive players on his team. Again great role player, not all-star talent.
> 
> BNM


That's alot of rambling just to say that Pryzbilla is not an all-star calibre player. That is blatantly obvious. What i'm saying is that specializing in a certain aspect as your only job and exerting all your energy into that aspect does NOT make you 'the best' in that aspect by default. What i'm saying is that other guys who have bigger roles could do what Pryz does better than him if they were givin his role, they just dont have the luxury to exert all of their energy into only 1 or maybe 2 areas every night for a mere 20 minutes. Just as a rebounder, I would take Yao over Pryzbilla in Pryzbilla's role 10 times out of 10. Pryz is just NOT the best rebounder in the league. Period.


----------



## Boob-No-More

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Blue Magic said:


> Pryz is just NOT the best rebounder in the league. Period.


In your opinion. That doesn't make it true.

BNM


----------



## MrJayremmie

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Oden with another good game at 16 and 10. Leads rookies in double-double's with his 16th i think? Of course he did it all in 25 minutes like usual.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Come on, Oden's strength is his rebounding, but he's clearly not a better rebounder then Dwight or Tim Duncan.

Come on..


----------



## Blue

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

No, they're saying that ****ing Pryzbilla is a better rebounder than Tim & Dwight.... That's why Oden doesnt play, you see? Becuz he's stuck behind the 'best rebounder in the league'! :lol:


----------



## Boob-No-More

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



VanillaPrice said:


> Come on, Oden's strength is his rebounding, but he's clearly not a better rebounder then Dwight or Tim Duncan.
> 
> Come on..


Nobody said he was. Go back and re-read the posts. Joel Przybilla (not Greg Oden) has the highest TRB% of all players averaging => 20 MPG. He was also 2nd in the league in TRB% last season.

BTW, Oden and Przybilla combined average 15.1 RPG - and they do it on the team that plays at the slowest pace in the entire league.

BNM


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Blue Magic said:


> No, they're saying that ****ing Pryzbilla is a better rebounder than Tim & Dwight.... That's why Oden doesnt play, you see? Becuz he's stuck behind the 'best rebounder in the league'! :lol:


you made this comment:


> GO sometimes doesnt even finish games over Joel Pryzbilla... I think that has to be more of an issue of not being trusted enough by your coach, and whether you're on a good team or a bad team Joel Pryzbilla is a guy that he should be able to beat out.


i simply asked if you knew that joel was a very good defensive player and the best rebound in the league. you essentially used a lot of words to say "no he's not". which of course doesn't really matter. i don't think you can deny that joel is one of the best rebounders in the league.

it makes sense that when joel plays better defense than oden and rebounds better than oden that there are times in the game in which portland would want him in the game over oden(like when the entire offense is being run through roy/aldridge/outlaw and oden wouldn't get any touches anyway). the fact that joel sometimes plays over oden and sometimes is the choice to finish games isn't really a knock on oden, it just points out the reality of the situation in portland. if joel was playing on the same team as any other rookie big man in the league, he'd be getting minutes over them as well.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



VanillaPrice said:


> Come on, Oden's strength is his rebounding, but he's clearly not a better rebounder then Dwight or Tim Duncan.
> 
> Come on..


come on, read posts before you respond to them.

come on.


----------



## HB

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

How many times has Oden fouled out this season?


----------



## The Krakken

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Thanks for hijacking the thread, guys.

Rose and Beasley with nice games tonight.


----------



## Blue

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Case in point, im watching the POR-GSW game and why is GO not in the game right now? Oh yeah, he already picked up 3 quick fouls and hasn't seen the floor since the begining of the 2nd qtr. That's why Oden's minutes aren't as good. It's not like he's playing behind some all-world talent is all we're saying, like Portland fans would have you believe. He has fouling issues right now, and the coach doesn't fully trust him down the stretch of games, yet. That's on him. Brook Lopez knows how to stay on the floor while still getting his #'s w/o fouling, hence he gets more minutes. Period. Oden is not, not getting minutes because Pryz is some unstoppable beast. It's because he cant stay on the floor even if coach wants him too alot of the time.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Blue Magic said:


> Case in point, im watching the POR-GSW game and why is GO not in the game right now? Oh yeah, he already picked up 3 quick fouls and hasn't seen the floor since the begining of the 2nd qtr.


were you watching enough to see oden pick up his 3rd foul on a terrible flop by maggette?


----------



## Blue

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

lol, of course I saw the flop.... that's how big men get treated in this league tho.  Night after night tho, it seems like whenever i try to watch Oden he's always in foul trouble. Who's fault is that? :thinking2:


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

you see that? oden turns, gets hacked on the arm with no call, and then gets his 4th going for the rebound.


----------



## Blue

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Wow @ Oden. Stay on the floor big man im trying to watch you play! :sad:


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Blue Magic said:


> Wow @ Oden. Stay on the floor big man im trying to watch you play! :sad:


he definitely committed the foul, but he should have been on the free throw line shooting two instead of fighting for a rebound of his miss.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Beasley with 21 pts (9-10 FG), 7 boards, 3 asts.

Rose with 18 pts (7-14 FG), 4 boards, 6 asts.


----------



## Blue

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Uh oh, Marion's outta town..... Look for Beasely to start beasting now after the break.


----------



## ChosenFEW

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

lol @ PER


it's a 2 man race as far as I am concerned... we all know who those 2 are


----------



## Adam

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



ChosenFEW said:


> lol @ PER
> 
> 
> it's a 2 man race as far as I am concerned... we all know who those 2 are


Yup. Kevin Love and Derrick Rose :yay:


----------



## GrandKenyon6

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Why is Oden still in the title?


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



GrandKenyon6 said:


> Why is Oden still in the title?


for the same reasons that anyone other than rose and mayo are in the title.


----------



## Ajlepisto

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Man if Oden could stay out of injury and foul trouble, he'd be a solid #1 in position.

At this point though, I have to go with Rose. Think about it, he's pretty much been the major factor in turning the Bulls around this year.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Ajlepisto said:


> Man if Oden could stay out of injury and foul trouble, he'd be a solid #1 in position.
> 
> At this point though, I have to go with Rose. Think about it, *he's pretty much been the major factor in turning the Bulls around this year*.


Well, even I have to agree with you here. It has taken his amazing brilliance to put a 33 win team on a 35 win pace. I'm casting my vote now.:lol:


----------



## NewAgeBaller

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Like X said, what turnaround?


----------



## Ajlepisto

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



NewAgeBaller said:


> Like X said, what turnaround?


Records don't always speak for turning a team around. A lot of it has to do with attitude.

If you look at the Bulls now, versus last year, they're playing a lot better. Gordon is starting to return to form, and now teams actually have to battle against them.

Last year you could just roll over on the bulls, but this year, you can't.

Records don't always speak for the turn around.


----------



## Ajlepisto

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Just did some research, I don't you guys fully appreciate how much of an improvement there has been. Last seasons according to Wikipedia the bulls had 33 wins. This season, as of the all-star break, they have 23.

Like any young team they are having problems on the road being 9-19, but Rose alone has been a huge improvement.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

that puts them on pace to win 35.59 games...Hooray for the bulls


----------



## The Krakken

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

double post


----------



## The Krakken

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Diable said:


> that puts them on pace to win 35.59 games...Hooray for the bulls


it's never a good idea to argue with numbers nerds. They tend to cherry pick their stats,ignoring things like deng and hinrich being out for roughly half the season thus far, along with gooden. considering that 4 of their top 7 players are approaching 100 combined games missed, its remarkable that they are on pace to win more games than last year.

but i digress.

I made my case for rose a few pages back, and it has yet to be challenged.


----------



## Najee

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Meanwhile, Old Man Greg Oden -- aka "Mr. Glass" to his close friends -- has a sore knee and could miss some games (he missed the rookie challenge during the All-Star Game weekend).

Meanwhile, Brook Lopez just keeps getting better on offense with each passing month. Check out his monthly splits in points/boards/blocks:

November: 9.8/7.0/1.6
December: 10.9/8.8/2.3
January: 14.9/7.9/1.8
February (5 games): 17.2/9.8/1.2

Like Blue Magic said, as long as Oden continues to commit fouls at such an alarming rate there will never be any consistency with his production. He hacks at a rate of 8.1 fouls per 48 minutes.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Najee said:


> Meanwhile, Old Man Greg Oden -- aka "Mr. Glass" to his close friends -- has a sore knee and could miss some games (he missed the rookie challenge during the All-Star Game weekend).


you do realize that oden said that had it been a regular season game instead of the rookie challenge, he would have played, right?


----------



## Najee

*You have every excuse in the book, don't you?*



rocketeer said:


> you do realize that oden said that had it been a regular season game instead of the rookie challenge, he would have played, right?


Considering it's probable that Greg Oden may miss games this week, I would say that it's a moot point.

Do you realize how laughable you have become at this point? I've read where you have made every excuse in the book why Oden is shaping up to be a first-year bust, from Joel Przybilla to fouling conspiracies to abstract hypotheticals, etc.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: You have every excuse in the book, don't you?*



Najee said:


> Considering it's probable that Greg Oden may miss games this week, I would say that it's a moot point.


it's *probable* that he *may* miss games? what does that even mean? and where are you getting that from?


----------



## Najee

*Re: You have every excuse in the book, don't you?*



rocketeer said:


> it's *probable* that he *may* miss games? what does that even mean? and where are you getting that from?


I got that from The Associated Press that Greg Oden may or may not play this week, based on his sore knee. 

You really love trying to play "the smartest person in the room" games, don't you? Do you realize how petty you look, trying to do the same roundabout stuff?


----------



## Basel

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



> "I don't think it's that serious at all," Mike Conley Sr. said tonight. "He's going to rest it. After he hurt it (against Golden State) he went back in the game, and that's where I think the swelling came from.
> "It's a game-by-game situation, but it's more precautionary than anything."
> 
> Following the Rookie Challenge game, Oden said he likely would have played if it were a regular-season game.
> 
> The Blazers play host to the Memphis Grizzlies at the Rose Garden Wednesday night.


http://blog.oregonlive.com/blazers/2009/02/odens_agent_knee_injury_not_se.html

For what it's worth...


----------



## Najee

*Greg Oden injury update*

Thanks, Basel. That is what I saw in an AP story, citing the quote from Greg Oden's agent, Mike Conley Sr.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: You have every excuse in the book, don't you?*



Najee said:


> I got that from The Associated Press that Greg Oden may or may not play this week, based on his sore knee.
> 
> You really love trying to play "the smartest person in the room" games, don't you? Do you realize how petty you look, trying to do the same roundabout stuff?


you were the guy trying to spin it like he is probably going to miss games because he wanted to be able to take a shot at him for being "injury prone".

the only news i had seen regarding it is what basel posted saying that oden would have played had it been a regular season game and that the injury wasn't serious. but apparently this is the same news you used to say he probably is going to miss games(or that it's probable he may miss games).


----------



## Najee

*Re: You have every excuse in the book, don't you?*



rocketeer said:


> you were the guy trying to spin it like he is probably going to miss games because he wanted to be able to take a shot at him for being "injury prone".


Seriously, are you Greg Oden's relative or just a groupie living your fantasy life vicariously through Oden? No one is trying to manufacture anything -- THE ASSOCIATED PRESS ran a story saying that Oden will be evaluated to see whether he will play this week because of his knee swelling.

Seriously, you really need to get a life. What are you, in your early 20s and you spend all your time on the Internet? You practically spend every second on here trying to rationalize why Oden has not become the next superstar center to the point you seem desparate.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: You have every excuse in the book, don't you?*



Najee said:


> Seriously, are you Greg Oden's relative or just a groupie living your fantasy life vicariously through Oden? No one is trying to manufacture anything -- THE ASSOCIATED PRESS ran a story saying that Oden will be evaluated to see whether he will play this week because of his knee swelling.


while the story also states that he would have played in the rookie sophomore game if it had been a regular season game. that would lead me to believe that he is going to play unless further evaluation determines something is wrong. you of course, are trying to say that it's likely that he won't play.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

and now oden is going to sit out tomorrow's game.


----------



## Najee

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

In other words, you wanted to start a petty word argument that Greg Oden may miss games this week because of his swollen knee and now it has been confirmed Oden will miss Wednesday's game because of his swollen knee.

In other words, we're back where we started.

Seriously, move on with being an Oden groupie. It's to the point where people don't take you seriously any more.


----------



## HB

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

In other news, Lopez continues his good play against Yao with a 20pt, 9rebound, 4 blocks performance.


----------



## Najee

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Don't worry, HB. You'll be getting some ricidulous rationalization by rocketeer and other Greg Oden zealots that Oden sitting out of a game is better than Brook Lopez putting up 20/9/4 because of some obscure stats and hypothetical numbers.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Najee said:


> In other words, you wanted to start a petty word argument that Greg Oden may miss games this week because of his swollen knee and now it has been confirmed Oden will miss Wednesday's game because of his swollen knee.


more like you said some bull**** that didn't make any sense and i asked you want it meant. then you said oden was probably going to miss games when none of the information at that point suggested that he would.


----------



## HB

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

He has a bone chip in his knee, he will be missing games. You acted like he was just under fatigue.


----------



## Najee

*Man, sit down*



rocketeer said:


> more like you said some bull**** that didn't make any sense and i asked you want it meant. then you said oden was probably going to miss games when none of the information at that point suggested that he would.


Again, you simply want to go around with some word games in any tired effort to rationalize your pet, Greg Oden.

The Associated Press reported early this week that Oden may miss games this week because of a swollen knee.

You got your panties twisted up about it.

Then it is announced he will miss Wednesday's game. 

GET OVER IT, SON -- it's obvious that wasn't something made-up. Your whole method of rationalization is weak. 

I'm sure next you will be pulling out any obscure mathematical computation in some sad attempt to make an argument that Oden is superior to Brook Lopez, even though anyone who actually has seen them play can see that Lopez right now is the better of the two and it's not even close.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Man, sit down*



Najee said:


> Again, you simply want to go around with some word games in any tired effort to rationalize your pet, Greg Oden.
> 
> The Associated Press reported early this week that Oden may miss games this week because of a swollen knee.
> 
> You got your panties twisted up about it.
> 
> Then it is announced he will miss Wednesday's game.
> 
> GET OVER IT, SON -- it's obvious that wasn't something made-up. Your whole method of rationalization is weak.
> 
> I'm sure next you will be pulling out any obscure mathematical computation in some sad attempt to make an argument that Oden is superior to Brook Lopez, even though anyone who actually has seen them play can see that Lopez right now is the better of the two and it's not even close.


you said that oden may miss games, the associated press didn't. you came up with that from reading the associated press article that said the injury was not serious, was a day to day thing, and that he would have played in the rookie challenge had it been a regular season game.


----------



## Najee

*Whatever, rocketeer*


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Whatever, rocketeer*



Najee said:


>


you know you're wrong so you resort to posting pictures and calling people "son". i can't say i'm surprised.


----------



## Najee

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Just like I'm not impressed by someone who is incessantly nitpicking, loves to argue over and over about the same thing and being flat-out nonsensical because he has apparently nothing else going on in his life. Seriously, when I was your age I wasn't sitting on the computer ranting on about some athlete I will never meet and acting as if that was my relative.

I tell you what, I'm going to watch Greg Oden play ... oh, that's right, he's NOT playing tonight. But I'm sure you will be coming up with some ridiculous rationalization that he had a better game than Brook Lopez.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Let's please stick to the topic at hand and not attack each other personally. Thanks.


----------



## The Krakken

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Basel said:


> Let's please stick to the topic at hand and not attack each other personally. Thanks.


Yeah. I actually lost interest in a very interesting thread.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

I'm still trying to understand why the whole Lopez VS. Oden argument is even in here, neither of them have that much of a chance at the award at this point, and Rose/Mayo/Westbrook have all been far better.


----------



## Najee

*Greg Oden question*



VanillaPrice said:


> I'm still trying to understand why the whole Lopez VS. Oden argument is even in here, neither of them have that much of a chance at the award at this point, and Rose/Mayo/Westbrook have all been far better.


IMO, it has more to do with the greater story is why does Greg Oden get such a huge benefit of the doubt from certain people -- not just vs. Brook Lopez, but for his entire career (NBA and college). Even in the context of his fellow rookies, there is more noise in this thread for Oden having an occasional good game vs. what some of the other players (O.J. Mayo, Derrick Rose) have been done more routinely.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Najee said:


> IMO, it has more to do with the greater story is why does Greg Oden get such a huge benefit of the doubt from certain people -- not just vs. Brook Lopez, but for his entire career (NBA and college).


Why would you not give the benefit of the doubt? He is a 20 year old rookie with sky high expectations, and he is coming off a knee surgery that has turned superstars into roleplayers. He has so much to overcome and he is still right in the thick of things among the best rookies, and he is doing it on a very good team. 

I think if anything Oden's downfall will be injuries. I have no problem calling him injury prone at this point, and I have my doubts about him in that regard. I have no doubts however that if he does get past the injuries, he will dwarf everyone else in this draft class. We'll just have to see, but I'm rooting for him. 



Najee said:


> Even in the context of his fellow rookies, there is more noise in this thread for Oden having an occasional good game vs. what some of the other players (O.J. Mayo, Derrick Rose) have been done more routinely.


Great big men will always generate more interest. I'm sure it was the same when Ben Gordon was scoring 30 and Dwight Howard was getting talked about for 10/10 type games. There are good scoring guards in almost every draft. Talk down Oden all you want, but even with his "occasional" good games and being "far" inferior to these other rookies, he still leads those guys in PER. And I see it being called an obscure stat, but it's the same stat that says that LeBron, Paul, Wade, Howard, Duncan and Kobe have been the best players in the league this season. How obscure can that be? I would like to know what your problem is with it? Where is the flaw in itn? It's certainly not the stat to end all arguments, but it should not be dismissed the way you guys are doing.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Enough with the Greg Oden soap opera. Three times this thread has tried to be steered back on track and three times it has been derailed. This thread is to keep track of the rookies and how their progress relates to the Rookie of the Year award.


----------



## GNG

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Why are we talking about two guys who WON'T be winning the award in question?


----------



## HB

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Fwiw I am not an Oden hater, I just think he's not having a better season than Lopez. Now does that make you a Lopez hater for thinking he hasn't?

Pretty much every pundit agrees that Rose, Mayo, Westbrook, Lopez and maybe Beasley have been the top rookies this year.


----------



## Najee

*Latest injury report*

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3921639

Blazers' Greg Oden to miss at least two more games -- meaning he will miss playing this week.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Latest injury report*



Najee said:


> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3921639
> 
> Blazers' Greg Oden to miss at least two more games -- meaning he will miss playing this week.


yep. originally it was day to day and seemed like he would play last game. then he was going to be out last game and friday and was hoping to be back sunday. now he's out both friday and sunday. we'll see where this goes.


----------



## bootstrenf

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

if eric gordon was on any other team than the clippers, he would be one of the frontrunners.....


just look at his damn numbers.....not only is he producing offensively, he is already the teams best perimeter defender.....and he isn't a chucker, he is getting to the line and hitting his jumpers at a high rate....


----------



## Blue

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

I like Gordon.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



bootstrenf said:


> if eric gordon was on any other team than the clippers, he would be one of the frontrunners.....


i agree. he started the season slow(because he wasn't getting minutes) and once he finally started getting time, his team was so bad that no one really cared.


----------



## o.iatlhawksfan

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



VanillaPrice said:


> and Rose/Mayo/Westbrook have all been far better.


Far better? Lopez is almost averaging a double/double and his team actually has a shot at the playoffs. IMO he should be right in the mix for ROY talks.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



o.iatlhawksfan said:


> Far better? Lopez is almost averaging a double/double and his team actually has a shot at the playoffs. IMO he should be right in the mix for ROY talks.


i guess we have a different definition of the word "almost".


----------



## Basel

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



> 1. Derrick Rose, Bulls: Chicago coach Vinny Del ***** sent Rose a clear message in Sunday's loss to the Pacers: If you want to be on the floor, you have to play defense. Rose gave up consecutive baskets to T.J. Ford early in the third quarter and found himself on the bench. "He's still young and has to learn defensively," Del ***** said. (Last week: 1)
> 
> 2. O.J. Mayo, Grizzlies: A month ago, the Cavaliers held Mayo to a season-low six points. He has scored in double digits in 17 straight games since then heading into Tuesday's rematch between Memphis and Cleveland. (Last week: 2)
> 
> 3. Russell Westbrook, Thunder: The biggest knock on Westbrook is his shooting percentage. He is shooting 41 percent from the field and 30 percent on 3-pointers. But when he has games like he did Saturday against the Warriors (31 points, 11 assists, 5 rebounds), who cares? (Last week: 3)
> 
> 4. Brook Lopez, Nets: According to The (Newark) Star-Ledger, his free throw percentage of .819 puts him on pace to set the NBA record for rookie centers (100 attempts). Yao Ming shot .811 in 2002-03 and Marc Jackson shot .802 in 2000-01. (Last week: 4)
> 
> 5. Eric Gordon, Clippers: He has scored in double digits in 30 straight games and even though Los Angeles has gotten healthier, he continues to take and make the big shots. Against the Warriors on Monday, he had 27 points (6-for-7 on 3-pointers), 5 assists and 7 rebounds in a 13-point victory. (Last week: 5)


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/awards?page=awards-090224


----------



## Accelerate

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



> For the first time all season, Derrick Rose and O.J. Mayo are both outside of the Top Three. This isn't a testament to they playing particularly poorly; instead it's about how well the rest of these guys have played. This is truly a remarkable rookie class—probably the best since 2003—making these rankings especially difficult to do sometimes. This week was probably the hardest yet, but there's no easy way to separate some of these guys.
> 
> #1 – Russell Westbrook – Oklahoma City Thunder (13-43) – 15.3ppg, 5.1apg, 4.7rpg
> In the last two games, Westbrook has dropped averages of 25 points, 9.5 assists, and 5.5 rebounds, showing once again that he's going to be right there with Derrick Rose as the greatest point guard of this draft. The Thunder may not have done much in the win column this year, but give them time. Behind Westbrook and superstar-in-the-making Kevin Durant, they'll be spectacular someday soon.
> 
> #2 – Eric Gordon – Los Angeles Clippers (13-43) – 15ppg, 2.6apg, 2.4rpg
> When it's all said and done, Gordon very easily could be the best pure scorer of this class. Sure, Mayo's got the height and is just as aggressive on the offensive end, but Gordon has shown more of an ability to explode for huge games. Not only that, but he's come so far in such a short period of time, where Mayo has seen his fair share of minutes from the get-go. Hard not to love this young man, and impossible not to love this young man's beautiful, beautiful jumpshot.
> 
> #3 – Brook Lopez – New Jersey Nets (24-32) – 12.6ppg, 8.1rpg, 1.9bpg
> Arguably the most consistent rookie of the batch, Lopez continues to do exactly what's expected of him each and every night. While he has been known to explode for humongous outputs both on the offensive end, rebounds, and blocks, it's the fact that when he doesn't blow up like that he's still good for 15 and 7. He's been invaluable to that team and will be a cornerstone for that organization for years and years and years.


Link
Mayo and Rose should still be tops but I found it interesting.

Correct me if you disagree but would you have your Rookie teams as such:

1st/2nd

Derrick Rose/Mario Chalmers
O.J. Mayo/Michael Beasley
Russell Westbrook/Marreese Speights
Eric Gordon/Kevin Love
Brook Lopez/Marc Gasol

I think the Rookie teams are generally loose with their positions?


----------



## Luke

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

It is absolutly stupid to not have either Rose or Mayo in the top spot, it's even stupider to not put either of them in the top three. I mean, that guy does realize that Rose scores/rebounds/and has double the assist numbers of Gorden while leading a fringe playoff team right?


----------



## bootstrenf

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



VanillaPrice said:


> It is absolutly stupid to not have either Rose or Mayo in the top spot, it's even stupider to not put either of them in the top three. I mean, that guy does realize that Rose scores/rebounds/and has double the assist numbers of Gorden while leading a fringe playoff team right?



how about 3pt% and 3ptrs made, ft%, steals, blks, and turnovers???

you seem to be handpicking the categories that rose has the advantage in.....not to mention that rose is averaging about 3 more minutes per game than gordon.....


and how about the fact that gordon has had 254 ft attempts, while rose has only had 167......mayo is at 208...westbrook is at 297.....


----------



## Luke

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



bootstrenf said:


> how about 3pt% and 3ptrs made, ft%, steals, blks, and turnovers???
> 
> you seem to be handpicking the categories that rose has the advantage in.....not to mention that rose is averaging about 3 more minutes per game than gordon.....
> 
> 
> and how about the fact that gordon has had 254 ft attempts, while rose has only had 167......mayo is at 208...westbrook is at 297.....


It just became clear to me that you don't watch Rose play, he gets hacked without getting calls more then any other perimeter player in the league, and it's not even close. I picked Points, Rebounds, and Assists because they are generally considered the three standard statistics, and they were the only ones that I knew off the top of my head.

You seem to be forgetting that Rose is in the midst of leading his team to the playoffs, while Gordon is getting the Clippers ready for another high draft pick, if you even think that Rose and Gordon are comparable, (And Gordon and Mayo for that matter) then you are simply a homer.


----------



## GNG

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



VanillaPrice said:


> It is absolutly stupid to not have either Rose or Mayo in the top spot, it's even stupider to not put either of them in the top three.


That's why it's called Poopsworld.


----------



## bootstrenf

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



VanillaPrice said:


> It just became clear to me that you don't watch Rose play, he gets hacked without getting calls more then any other perimeter player in the league, and it's not even close. I picked Points, Rebounds, and Assists because they are generally considered the three standard statistics, and they were the only ones that I knew off the top of my head.
> 
> You seem to be forgetting that Rose is in the midst of leading his team to the playoffs, while Gordon is getting the Clippers ready for another high draft pick, if you even think that Rose and Gordon are comparable, (And Gordon and Mayo for that matter) then you are simply a homer.


rose doesn't get calls? are you implying that gordon does? it's very obvious that you haven't seen gordon play, or you'd know that the refs give him no respect at all...

and about the playoffs: basketball is a team game.....you cannot compare two players in the context of what their teams accomplish over the course of the season.....

stick rose with the clippers and they would still be a crappy team....


the only thing you seem to support your arguement with are biased personal opinions......just look at the numbers and you will see that all 4 guards are about equal.....some are better than others at different things, but there is no clear cut "best".....


go watch gordon play before you comment on him.....it's obvious you've never seen a clipper game.....lol.....

i've seen all of them play.....rose, westbrook, mayo, gordon......


and by the way, how the hell am i a homer when i am calling my own team crappy???


----------



## Luke

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



bootstrenf said:


> rose doesn't get calls? are you implying that gordon does? it's very obvious that you haven't seen gordon play, or you'd know that the refs give him no respect at all...
> 
> and about the playoffs: basketball is a team game.....you cannot compare two players in the context of what their teams accomplish over the course of the season.....
> 
> stick rose with the clippers and they would still be a crappy team....
> 
> 
> the only thing you seem to support your arguement with are biased personal opinions......just look at the numbers and you will see that all 4 guards are about equal.....some are better than others at different things, but there is no clear cut "best".....
> 
> 
> go watch gordon play before you comment on him.....it's obvious you've never seen a clipper game.....lol.....
> 
> i've seen all of them play.....rose, westbrook, mayo, gordon......
> 
> 
> and by the way, how the hell am i a homer when i am calling my own team crappy???


I just accidentaly lost a post that took me about 20 minutes, so i'm not going to rewrite all of it. Basically I pointed to all of the stats that Rose was better then Gordon in (Which was most of them) I broke down that Rose has to deal with more defensive attention then Gordon, and also pointed out that it's completly asinine to not use team record in discussing who's the better player, the fact of the matter is that Rose is leading his team to a respectable record while posting better overall numbers the Gordon, and if you can't see this then you can't comprehend basic math.


----------



## bootstrenf

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



VanillaPrice said:


> I just accidentaly lost a post that took me about 20 minutes, so i'm not going to rewrite all of it. Basically I pointed to all of the stats that Rose was better then Gordon in (Which was most of them)


so let's see....

fg% - rose
ft% - gordon
ft made - gordon
3pt% - gordon
3pt made - gordon
ppg - rose 1.3 pts difference
rpg - rose 1.1 reb difference
apg - rose by a significant margin
spg - gordon by .2
bpg - gordon by .3
to - gordon by .6 (meaning .6 less)

and rose plays on average 3:11 more minutes per game...so gordon wins 7 cats, rose wins 4, by the smallest of margins except for the assists cat, which makes sense because rose is the pg......

and i'm not sure about rose, but gordon is already a damn good perimeter defender, the best on the clippers.....could you say the same about rose???



> I broke down that Rose has to deal with more defensive attention then Gordon, and also pointed out that it's completly asinine to not use team record in discussing who's the better player, the fact of the matter is that Rose is leading his team to a respectable record while posting better overall numbers the Gordon, and if you can't see this then you can't comprehend basic math.



actually rose doesn't have to deal with more defensive attention than gordon......there was a point during the season where kaman, baron, randolph, camby were all out and gordon was the only scoring option along with thornton......he still put up big numbers.....if you knew anything about gordon, or the clippers at all, you would've known that.....lol.....


better overall numbers by rose??? gordon has the advantage in 7 of 11 categories......the 4 categories that rose leads are by the slimest of margins.....only because he plays more minutes per game......


i guess you're the one who needs help with basic math....lmao......


hey, going by your theory i guess matt bonner is better than yao ming, afterall, the spurs have a better record than the rockets......


okay, i'm done with you......


----------



## Luke

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



bootstrenf said:


> so let's see....
> 
> fg% - rose
> ft% - gordon
> ft made - gordon
> 3pt% - gordon
> 3pt made - gordon
> ppg - rose 1.3 pts difference
> rpg - rose 1.1 reb difference
> apg - rose by a significant margin
> spg - gordon by .2
> bpg - gordon by .3
> to - gordon by .6 (meaning .6 less)
> 
> and rose plays on average 3:11 more minutes per game...so gordon wins 7 cats, rose wins 4, by the smallest of margins except for the assists cat, which makes sense because rose is the pg......
> 
> and i'm not sure about rose, but gordon is already a damn good perimeter defender, the best on the clippers.....could you say the same about rose???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> actually rose doesn't have to deal with more defensive attention than gordon......there was a point during the season where kaman, baron, randolph, camby were all out and gordon was the only scoring option along with thornton......he still put up big numbers.....if you knew anything about gordon, or the clippers at all, you would've known that.....lol.....
> 
> 
> better overall numbers by rose??? gordon has the advantage in 7 of 11 categories......the 4 categories that rose leads are by the slimest of margins.....only because he plays more minutes per game......
> 
> 
> i guess you're the one who needs help with basic math....lmao......
> 
> 
> hey, going by your theory i guess matt bonner is better than yao ming, afterall, the spurs have a better record than the rockets......
> 
> 
> okay, i'm done with you......




I'm still laughing over you using FT%, then Free Throws made, then 3PT%, then 3PT made as the deciding factor on why Gordon is better then Rose, all of that relates to scoring, and Rose scores more, and has the much higher FG%.


The only real catagories that Gordon leads Rose in are Blocks and Steals (Which is by far, the most overrated stat ever), and leads them by .2 and .3, while all of Roses advantages are atleast by one full number, so yes I reiterate, you obviously don't comprehend basic Math, and you have an utterly ridiculous way of evalutating which players are better.

And come on, Matt Bonner is a role player, we're talking about evaluating the top players on their respective teams, Rose LEAD the Bulls to a decent record, Matt contributed to his teams record, but he isn't even a top five player on the team.


----------



## bootstrenf

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



VanillaPrice said:


> I'm still laughing over you using FT%, then Free Throws made, then 3PT%, then 3PT made as the deciding factor on why Gordon is better then Rose, all of that relates to scoring, and Rose scores more, and has the much higher FG%.


laughing? you should be taking notes.....

free throws are important because it shows that a player gets to the rim and gets in the lane......3 pointers are important because it shows range.....a diverse scoring aresenal......rose does have a higher fg%, but that's only because he shoots far less 3 pointers than gordon....


why don't you compare true shooting percentage????




> The only real catagories that Gordon leads Rose in are Blocks and Steals (Which is by far, the most overrated stat ever), and leads them by .2 and .3, while all of Roses advantages are atleast by one full number, so yes I reiterate, you obviously don't comprehend basic Math, and you have an utterly ridiculous way of evalutating which players are better.


how convinient that those cats are "overrated"....lol....

and why don't you calculate in terms of percentages instead of the raw numbers.....do you understand why i suggest this, or do you need me to explain????

again, you seem to have the problem with math...



> And come on, Matt Bonner is a role player, we're talking about evaluating the top players on their respective teams, Rose LEAD the Bulls to a decent record, Matt contributed to his teams record, but he isn't even a top five player on the team.



so team records could be used to compare players when it supports your argument, but not when it goes against it???? again, how convenient......



instead of spouting of your personal opinions, and telling me that my math skills need work, why don't you formulate a good basis for your side of the argument????

then, we can have an actual discussion.....lmao....:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Luke

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



bootstrenf said:


> laughing? you should be taking notes.....
> 
> free throws are important because it shows that a player gets to the rim and gets in the lane......3 pointers are important because it shows range.....a diverse scoring aresenal......rose does have a higher fg%, but that's only because he shoots far less 3 pointers than gordon....
> 
> 
> why don't you compare true shooting percentage????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> how convinient that those cats are "overrated"....lol....
> 
> and why don't you calculate in terms of percentages instead of the raw numbers.....do you understand why i suggest this, or do you need me to explain????
> 
> again, you seem to have the problem with math...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so team records could be used to compare players when it supports your argument, but not when it goes against it???? again, how convenient......
> 
> 
> 
> instead of spouting of your personal opinions, and telling me that my math skills need work, why don't you formulate a good basis for your side of the argument????
> 
> then, we can have an actual discussion.....lmao....:lol::lol::lol:




Ok, instead of cute little personal attacks that seem to make you crack up, how about we actually talk about Basketball?

I'll break this up for you in a way that (hopefully) you can understand.

The six sections are- Scoring (Includes %, so don't get you're panties in a bunch) Rebounding, Passing, Defense, and overall Basketball intagables (Leadership, Team Record, Clutch preformace ect.) And Metrics (Per, Efficiency, ect.)

Scoring- As we know Rose leads in actual scoring amount 16.7 to 25.3, and FG% 47-44, while Gordon has the edge in FT% and 3PT shooting. Rose has a TS% of 51%, which is solid, but Gordon takes it pretty easily with an extremtly impressive 59%. Scoring goes to Gordon pretty easily.

Rebounding- Not much to say here, Rose simply rebounds the ball more then Gordon, it's not a huge amount, but he also leads in Rebound Rate and R/40 so this one goes to Rose.

Passing- I really shouldn't have to say anything here, but sense you show a lack of knowladge for the game overall, I will elaberate. Rose averages 6.7 to Gordon's 2.7, HUGE advantage Rose. Rose obiovuly blows Gordon straight out of the water with his assist ratio at 25, while Gordons is only at 15, Rose also blows him out of the water with assists per 40 minutes at 7-4. Huge advantage Rose.

Defense- Neither one of them are defensive beasts, but Gordon posts the better defensive nubmers, and it pretty easily the better defender, there isn't really any way to debate it. Edge Gordon

Basketball Intangebles- Rose has been "The Guy" ever since November in Chi-Town, he's been their undisputed best player since day one, and is the only reason that their franchise isn't in complete and total shambles. Gordon started off the season slow, but has picked it up lately and has established himself as the future of the Clippers, due to Gordon only recently turning it on, this part goes to Rose. Team Record is easily Rose, and he has single-handidly won the Bulls atleast 10 games, Gordon's team record is pathetic, and, along with passing and Metrics, is the main reason why I believe that Rose is better then Gordon. Clutch play, Rose has been EXTREMLY clutch all season, and has kept the Bulls in multiple games that they had absolutly no bussinuss in being competitive in, I will conceed that I haven't seen Gordon play as much as you have, but due to Rose doing it all year compared to Gordon's slow November and December, this has got to be Rose.

So far it's 3-2 Rose, and the only remaining part is Metrics.

Metrics- Rose has the edge in PER 16.06 to 14.97, (Which Gordon got a boost from playing three less minutes a game, so can you please quit *****ing about that?) but Rose has the more signifigant edge in Efficiency Rating, where he is leading by three. Edge Rose.

So Rose wins 4-2, but I will admit Gordon stacked up far better then I though that he would, and he "may" have a strong case for him being better then Westbrook.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

I think that Michael Beasley deserves some props right now. 45.5 FG% and 40.4 3PT% and he is shooting 88% from the free throw line in February. 13.3 PPG in only 24 minutes.

Seriously, nobody could have predicted that he would be shooting 40.4% on threes by March. That's ridiculous. Everyone thought that he would take time to adjust to NBA range but his shot is so pure.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



The '93 Heat said:


> I think that Michael Beasley deserves some props right now. 45.5 FG% and 40.4 3PT% and he is shooting 88% from the free throw line in February. 13.3 PPG in only 24 minutes.
> 
> Seriously, nobody could have predicted that he would be shooting 40.4% on threes by March. That's ridiculous. Everyone thought that he would take time to adjust to NBA range but his shot is so pure.


The 3PT% and the FT% are really impressive, but his FG% is pretty underwhelming, I expected him to be more effifient inside the Three Point Line.

Rose with another awesome night against Houston, 22/7/8( 16 in the fourth) hopfully this will break him out of his little mini slump


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



VanillaPrice said:


> The 3PT% and the FT% are really impressive, but his FG% is pretty underwhelming, I expected him to be more effifient inside the Three Point Line.


Really? His 2pt% is identical to Chris Bosh's rookie number.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



MemphisX said:


> Really? His 2pt% is identical to Chris Bosh's rookie number.


You know as well as I do that Bosh wasn't that great in his rookie year, and didn't start florishing until his second year. Anyway, 45.5% for FG is not good for a player that is supposed to be playing Power Forward.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



VanillaPrice said:


> *You know as well as I do that Bosh wasn't that great in his rookie year,* and didn't start florishing until his second year. Anyway, 45.5% for FG is not good for a player that is supposed to be playing Power Forward.


He is a freaking rookie. Actually, I think 45.5% is pretty damn goo for a perimeter based PF. I think it is your expectations that are out of whack. He is rarely posted up on the inside. Heck, David West made the All Star team shooting 46.7%.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



MemphisX said:


> He is a freaking rookie. Actually, I think 45.5% is pretty damn goo for a perimeter based PF. I think it is your expectations that are out of whack. He is rarely posted up on the inside. Heck, David West made the All Star team shooting 46.7%.


It's not like i'm bashing him for his percentages, I was just sort of suprised that he wasn't more efficient.

And come on, David West in no way deserved to be on the All-Star team, you and I both know that.


----------



## Adam

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

What about Dirk? His rookie year he averaged 40.5%. Some notable FG%'s from his career: 46.3, 46.2, and 45.9. What about Chris Bosh's sophomore year of 47.1%? You're crazy to act like 45.5% is bad for a 20 year old, and his TS% is over 51%.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



The '93 Heat said:


> What about Dirk? His rookie year he averaged 40.5%. Some notable FG%'s from his career: 46.3, 46.2, and 45.9. What about Chris Bosh's sophomore year of 47.1%? You're crazy to act like 45.5% is bad for a 20 year old, and his TS% is over 51%.


Eh, maybe I overracted a tad, but the Heat organization didn't draft Beasley to be Dirk, they wanted more of a post weapon that could get them an efficient 17-20 points a game.

His FT% and 3PT% really impress me though.


----------



## The Krakken

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



VanillaPrice said:


> Eh, maybe I overracted a tad, but the Heat organization didn't draft Beasley to be Dirk, they wanted more of a post weapon that could get them an efficient 17-20 points a game.
> 
> His FT% and 3PT% really impress me though.


I agree with this. As hyped up as Beasley was as "the Answer to Chicago's post problems", and being a "dominant big man in the post for years to come", I would have expected near or above 50%.....rookie or not. People had no problem projecting that for him when he was dominating college and everyone thought we were CRAZY for considering Rose over him. So now it's time for those same people to take their medicine.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



VanillaPrice said:


> Eh, maybe I overracted a tad, but the Heat organization didn't draft Beasley to be Dirk, they wanted more of a post weapon that could get them an efficient 17-20 points a game.
> 
> His FT% and 3PT% really impress me though.


They don't play Beasley in the post, so that kind of kills your argument. Watch where they play Beasley, it is not in the post.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



VanillaPrice said:


> Eh, maybe I overracted a tad, but the Heat organization didn't draft Beasley to be Dirk, they wanted more of a post weapon that could get them an efficient 17-20 points a game.
> 
> His FT% and 3PT% really impress me though.


There is no way in the name of Adam that any team that worked Beasley out could possibly have viewed him as a pure post player. The man doesn't stand 6'9" even in sneakers. I'm fairly certain that they're hoping to make him a power 3 or maybe a PF in the mold of a Shawn Marion. He simply isn't big enough to line up on the blocks on a regular basis.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



ehmunro said:


> There is no way in the name of Adam that any team that worked Beasley out could possibly have viewed him as a pure post player. The man doesn't stand 6'9" even in sneakers. I'm fairly certain that they're hoping to make him a power 3 or maybe a PF in the mold of a Shawn Marion. He simply isn't big enough to line up on the blocks on a regular basis.


Thats what I was thinking the whole time before the draft, but the feeling between the analysts and most Heat fans was that he was going to come into the league, and be a true Power Forward, it seems stupid now, but there are plenty of posts that anyone could dig up and find the same result.


----------



## HB

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Consensus was that he was a tweener


----------



## The Krakken

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



ehmunro said:


> There is no way in the name of Adam that any team that worked Beasley out could possibly have viewed him as a pure post player. The man doesn't stand 6'9" even in sneakers. I'm fairly certain that they're hoping to make him a power 3 or maybe a PF in the mold of a Shawn Marion. He simply isn't big enough to line up on the blocks on a regular basis.


Which is precisely why I adamantly advocated Rose.


----------



## The Krakken

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



HB said:


> Consensus was that he was a tweener


That was not the CONSENSUS. It was the RIGHT opinion, but it was HARDLY a consensus.


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



The Krakken said:


> That was not the CONSENSUS. It was the RIGHT opinion, but it was HARDLY a consensus.


i'd say the majority thought he was a tweener.

of course, i still wouldn't say that he's a tweener. to me, he's absolutely a pf. he's just a pf that more perimeter oriented than the average pf and who is going to give up some size defensively in the post.


----------



## Blue

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

Westbrook goin for a trip-double! :worthy:


----------



## Luke

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Blue Magic said:


> Westbrook goin for a trip-double! :worthy:


He got it!:yay:


----------



## Blue

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

yup. he's the 1st rook to do it this year, i think. proving the doubters wrong, one game @ a time....


----------



## HB

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*

*Westbrook and Lopez named Rookies of the Month*

That's Lopez' second ROTM, back to back for that matter. Kid's doing A-OK


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Blue Magic said:


> yup. he's the 1st rook to do it this year, i think. proving the doubters wrong, one game @ a time....


to be honest, it was a pretty weak triple double. 17, 10, and 10 along with 6 turnover and 6-18 shooting. i was a lot more impressed with what he was doing in december and january. his numbers have gone up lately, but his efficiency has absolutely gone to **** and that likely isn't changing at least until durant is back.


----------



## Luke

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



rocketeer said:


> to be honest, it was a pretty weak triple double. 17, 10, and 10 along with 6 turnover and 6-18 shooting. i was a lot more impressed with what he was doing in december and january. his numbers have done up lately, but his efficiency has absolutely gone to **** and that likely isn't changing at least until durant is back.


His efficiency isn't nearly as bad as it was for the first 15-20 games, talk about ugly shooting preformances.


----------



## GNG

Thread title edited to cut some of the fat. 

Apologies to fans of Mike Beasley, Greg Oden, Kevin Love, Eric Gordon and Kosta Koufos.


----------



## Basel

Cinco de Mayo said:


> Thread title edited to cut some of the fat.
> 
> Apologies to fans of Mike Beasley, Greg Oden, Kevin Love, Eric Gordon and *Kosta Koufos.*


He should be in the discussion, in my opinion, but to each his own.


----------



## Vuchato

Ryan Anderson scored 13 points. _off of 3 shots._ he's got this locked up.


----------



## Blue

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



rocketeer said:


> to be honest, it was a pretty weak triple double. 17, 10, and 10 along with 6 turnover and 6-18 shooting. i was a lot more impressed with what he was doing in december and january. his numbers have gone up lately, but his efficiency has absolutely gone to **** and that likely isn't changing at least until durant is back.


His efficiency has actually been getting better lately, but as a rookie, who cares? I dont really hold that against him because it's not odd to look back and see impact players putting up inefficient #'s when they were rookies. It's not like I expect him to be peaked out @ age 20, I expect him to still get better, but i dont see how you can watch him, then look @ his %'s alone and conclude that he will be a bad player...

Look at the obvious..... As Westbrook's role has grown, so have the Thunder become more successful. The guy is a gamer. He is making clutch plays... he is changing the dynamics of games with his energy, activeness, and explosiveness on both ends... As inefficient as he may be on offense right now, he makes up for it by being a *very* good defensive player. I just like the guys, because he knows how to play basketball and he always finds a way to make impact a game and make big plays.

Who would've thought the Thunder had any chance against Dallas w/o KD or Green? This kid put up a triple-double, and it's not like he hasn't flirted with it before either... I see him


----------



## Pioneer10

Westbrook's +/- is impressive. He blows Durant out of the water when looking at Net +/- because OKC defensive rating is poorer when Durant's playing. Interesting as well as Rose and Mayo have negative +/-'s. Lopez also has a positive +/- but not as high as Westbrook's. 

+/- clearly is affected by backups so I could see Rose getting a pass a bit since he's got good guards around him still it's interesting how Westbrook is the one guy who has the most positive impact on his team

http://basketballvalue.com/teamplay...summary&sortnumber=21&sortorder=DESC&team=OKC


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: Mayo vs. Rose vs. Oden vs. Lopez vs. Westbrook vs. Gordon vs. Love (ROY Discussio*



Blue Magic said:


> His efficiency has actually been getting better lately, but as a rookie, who cares? I dont really hold that against him because it's not odd to look back and see impact players putting up inefficient #'s when they were rookies. It's not like I expect him to be peaked out @ age 20, I expect him to still get better, but i dont see how you can watch him, then look @ his %'s alone and conclude that he will be a bad player...


it hasn't getting better lately. it was horrible at the beginning of the season, then he started shooting and scoring much better, and now he's dropped back down to almost as bad as it was in the beginning of the year.

i'm not going to hold it against him longterm or anything, it's just what he is at this point. he put up 20, 6, and 6 in february but only shot 38% and 23% from 3. so there's good and there's bad. with him being a young player with lots of development still to come, the good obviously outweighs the bad. all i was doing with my previous post was pointing out that it terms of triple doubles it was a pretty bad one(he's had a lot of better games this season) and that while his numbers have looked really nice lately at first glance, they aren't as good as they seem.


----------



## Diable

All the stuff you count against Westbrook as ROY candidate is exactly what makes him the most intriguing rookie as a longterm prospect.Nothing that you say against him is anything that can not be corrected with hard work and coaching.I still think he's a combo guard,but then so is Rose.He takes better shots and makes better decisions he'll end up the best player in this draft.


----------



## HB

Diable said:


> All the stuff you count against Westbrook as ROY candidate is exactly what makes him the most intriguing rookie as a longterm prospect.Nothing that you say against him is anything that can not be corrected with hard work and coaching.I still think he's a combo guard,but then so is Rose.*He takes better shots and makes better decisions he'll end up the best player in this draft.*


O rly?


----------



## MemphisX

HB said:


> O rly?


Best player won't be settled for a decade. It will go back and forth between about 6-7 guys over the next 5 years depending upon stats and team success.


----------



## Dwho15

*Rookie of the year , article*



> *Who do you got?*
> At first it was Rose\Mayo a 2 horse race. Both kinda slowed down a bit. Now rookies like Eric Gordon and Brook Lopez and Russel Westbrook have been playing amazing but is it enough to boost up there season stats? and can they do it for the rest of the year?.
> Right now for the complete season the scoring looks like this
> O.J Mayo..19.2 ppg..takes 16 shots and makes 7 of them .437% from the field makes 1.8 3’s on 4.9 attempts .378%. Gets to the line 3.8 times a game and shoots .880% from the line.
> Derrick Rose 16.6 ppg..takes 14.9 shots a games and makes 7 of them .471 from the field. Makes 0.3 3’s a game on 1 attempt .259. Gets to the line 3 times a game and shoots .793 from the stripe.
> Russel Westbrook takes 12.9 shots a game and makes 5.3.410 from the field.
> Gets to the line 5.2 times a game and shoots .815 from the stripe.
> Eric Gordon takes 10.8 shots a game and makes 4.8 of them .444	from the field. He makes 1.6 3’s on 4.2 attempts shooting .384 from 3. Gets to line 4.4 times a game and shoots .864 from the stripe.
> Beasley is next but I don’t really think he is in the main competition.
> Brook Lopez takes 10.4 shots a game and makes 5.4 of them .513	from the field. Gets to the line 2.2 times a game and shoots .820 from the stripe.
> Mayo takes the most shots and is tied for the most makes with Rose.
> Lopez and Gordon take the least shots of them all.


Click below for full article .
*SOURCE: http://ball2live.com/featured/2009/02/rookie-of-the-year/*


----------



## GNG

*Re: Rookie of the year , article*



Dwho15 said:


> Click below for full article .
> *SOURCE: http://ball2live.com/featured/2009/02/rookie-of-the-year/*


Tedious.

This is getting merged with the existing ROY thread.


----------



## GNG

Marc Gasol making a serious early run at the Rookie of the Month Award for March.

In three games, he's averaging 22.3 points, 11.7 rebounds, 5.3 assists and 3.0 blocks on *76.7* percent shooting.

Three double-doubles, a 20-point, 10-assist game and a 30-point, 10-rebound game last night, when he dumped 30 points and 13 rebounds on Sam Dalembert.


----------



## Prolific Scorer

Cinco de Mayo said:


> In three games, he's averaging 22.3 points, 11.7 rebounds, 5.3 assists and 3.0 blocks on *76.7* percent shooting.


Ew, that's disgusting.


----------



## HB

Is Courtney Lee also from the present draft class? I am too lazy to look it up


----------



## GNG

HB said:


> Is Courtney Lee also from the present draft class? I am too lazy to look it up


Yeah, he got taken in the early-20s this past draft.


----------



## HB

More testament to how loaded this class was. Marc Gasol has really surprised me, though he wasnt taken in this draft, I never expected him to be this good.


----------



## Prolific Scorer

Derrick Rose
OJ Mayo
Eric Gordon
Brook Lopez
Russell Westbrook
Jason Thompson
Michael Beasley
Marc Gasol


I think all of these guys have what it takes to become All-Stars at some point..

Guys like Jarryd Bayless, Courtney Lee, DJ Augustin, Marreese Speights, JaVale McGee, Roy Hibbert, George Hill, Nicolas Batum, Mario Chalmers, and Luc Mbah a Moute have all shown signs that they can be big time players in this league in the near future.

This was an awesome draft.


----------



## GNG

From the Elias Sports Bureau:



> Eric Gordon scored 35 points in the Clippers' 106-105 home loss to the Pacers. It was Gordon's fifth 30-point game of the season, and *the 20th such game by an NBA rookie in 2008-09. Over the last 12 seasons, only one rookie class can match that number. That was 2003-04, when there were 30 games of 30+ points by rookies, led by LeBron James (13) and Carmelo Anthony (10) .*


Link


----------



## Accelerate

I'm having one of my once-in-a-while looks at Westbrook and he's been great thus far (well, until he airballed a three). The other time I saw him was the Dallas game where he drew a foul from three, sank the first two and drilled a three off a Krstic offensive rebound of his third free-throw to tie the game and eventually send it to overtime (where they lost). I guess I do know when to watch. At this point, I think I'm going with him for the award.


----------



## Dre

Man...if only Bayless went to some doormat where he could be in on this...I know he'd be right up there with all of them because he's a deadly scorer. 

Thing is he'll probably win before any of them....


----------



## Accelerate

Dre™ said:


> Man...if only Bayless went to some doormat where he could be in on this...I know he'd be right up there with all of them because he's a deadly scorer.
> 
> Thing is he'll probably win before any of them....


I remember him playing extremely well against the Nets. It's scary to think there are still some other underused or still developing budding stars in this class.


----------



## joser

IMO, if EJ goes off 30+ pts more than 10 times this season and no one else comes close, he should deserve the ROY award.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

I'd say Rose is far and away the lone candidate for ROY at this point, by a combination of play and coverage.

The media has pretty much given him the award already. Despite their play, Mayo, Westbrook, Lopez and any of the other rookies simply don't get enough media coverage to win this award. Its been concensus-Rose for a while.


----------



## Diable

At this point it looks like Westbrook and Rose to me.Since Rose has been ahead all year and has gotten the media exposure all year Westbrook will have to take it away from him.Westbrook is really difficult to handicap though...because you don't know how much the turnovers will count against him.A good team could never afford to play the guy at the point,he just doesn't take good enough care of the ball.His numbers don't stand out much,but when you watch him you see him do a ton of good stuff...but he still does a lot of bad stuff as well.If he was playing for a good team where the wins mattered the fans would hate the guy,noone likes a point guard who makes a lot of mistakes when you're desperate to win a game.The guy always looks good on sportscenter.He does create a lot highlights and the lowlights don't interest ESPN.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Westbrook needs to be put at the 2. He is more in the mold of a Dwyane Wade than a Deron Williams.


----------



## Luke

Sir Patchwork said:


> Westbrook needs to be put at the 2. He is more in the mold of a Dwyane Wade than a Deron Williams.


He's two inches shorter then Wade, and it would be rough for him to have to deal with the Joe Jonhson's of the world contesting his shot.


----------



## Adam

Remember when Randy Foye said he was a better version of Dwyane Wade because he could shoot threes? :no:


----------



## Diable

Randy Foye turned into a good player once they stopped trying to force him into a role he wasn't good at,but was almost useless as a point.Westbrook isn't that extreme a case,but he's obviously a combo guard and would be better as a two guard.I don't think his height is that big an issue.That stuff goes both ways.The other guy's got to match up with his quickness


----------



## Luke

joser said:


> IMO, if EJ goes off 30+ pts more than 10 times this season and no one else comes close, he should deserve the ROY award.


I personally think that every award should be handed out for whoever has the most 30 point nights.


----------



## bootstrenf

VanillaPrice said:


> I personally think that every award should be handed out for whoever has the most 30 point nights.


yeah, we all know how you feel about gordon already vanilla.....


----------



## E.H. Munro

OJ Mayo and Eric Gordon are my favourites from this last draft class. And Gordon is threatening to overtake Mayo. I'm hopeful that he leaves for Boston in free agency. :bsmile:


----------



## bootstrenf

ehmunro said:


> OJ Mayo and Eric Gordon are my favourites from this last draft class. And Gordon is threatening to overtake Mayo. I'm hopeful that he leaves for Boston in free agency. :bsmile:



according to vanilla, rose blows gordon away on terms of, well, everything......to him, comparing rose to gordon in the ROY race is laughable......no contest, gordon shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as rose.....rose is *that much *better than gordon.....


----------



## joser

VanillaPrice said:


> I personally think that every award should be handed out for whoever has the most 30 point nights.


Sure. I can definitely see that especially in DPOY award. :clap:


----------



## The Krakken

bootstrenf said:


> according to vanilla, rose blows gordon away on terms of, well, everything......to him, comparing rose to gordon in the ROY race is laughable......no contest, gordon shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as rose.....rose is *that much *better than gordon.....


If the season is taken as a whole, then Rose is better than Gordon...in nearly every way, except shooting, where Gordon is quite a bit better at this point, and team defense, where neither of them are stellar.

Unfortunately for Gordon, the other things are harder to fix, than shooting.

Its alot easier to become a really good shooter, than it is to become a really good ball-handler or really good passer.


----------



## bootstrenf

The Krakken said:


> If the season is taken as a whole, then Rose is better than Gordon...in nearly every way, except shooting, where Gordon is quite a bit better at this point, and team defense, where neither of them are stellar.
> 
> Unfortunately for Gordon, the other things are harder to fix, than shooting.
> 
> Its alot easier to become a really good shooter, than it is to become a really good ball-handler or really good passer.



gordon is a superb perimeter defender.....


he also gets to the line at a very high rate.....and he gets to the line despite the fact that he gets no calls.....


also, gordon is the better scorer.....

gordon has good handles, he just doesn't handle the ball as much as rose because gordon plays the 2 spot.....same thing with passing.....


rose is definitely not better in nearly every way than gordon......they each have their strongpoints, but my whole point is that comparing gordon to rose is like comparing apples to oranges......they each do different things and it is hard to directly compare them......which is exactly why you can't say one is "better" than the other......


----------



## The Krakken

bootstrenf said:


> gordon is a superb perimeter defender.....


Its hard to take you seriously when you make a statement like this.......



> he also gets to the line at a very high rate.....and he gets to the line despite the fact that he gets no calls.....


This is a contradiction, and inaccurate. If you want to know what its like to get "no calls"...watch Derrick Rose play this season. He gets hacked almost every time he attacks the rim. If they called him like they did someone like wade, he'd average 10fta's a game.




> also, gordon is the better scorer.....


No doubt. But:

a) They aren't that far apart, and 

b) The league is littered with great scorers, so that makes him kinda "me too". He's more Ben Gordon than he is Kobe or Dwayne Wade. Which isn't a bad thing. But if you put Ben Gordon from his rookie season in last years draft class, there isn't a man in the league that would take him OVER derrick Rose. There's a reason why Rose went first. There's a reason why Gordon went where he did (was it top 5?).....



> gordon has good handles, he just doesn't handle the ball as much as rose because gordon plays the 2 spot.....same thing with passing.....


That's absurd. Pippen played the 3 and handled it more than anyone. Wade plays the 2 and handles it more than anyone. Gordon doesn't hadle the ball as much because he's not the best ball-handler, end of discussion. If he was THAT good a ball-handler, he'd be a PG, instead of an undersized SG.




> rose is definitely not better in nearly every way than gordon......


Lets agree to disagree.....



> they each have their strongpoints, but my whole point is that comparing gordon to rose is like comparing apples to oranges......they each do different things and it is hard to directly compare them......which is exactly why you can't say one is "better" than the other......


I disagree here as well. What they do is important. Playing PG is BY FAR the single most difficult thing to do at the NBA level. That Rose is playing PG at the same level that Gordon is playing SG as a rookie is a testament to Rose. That's why he gets the nod.


----------



## bootstrenf

The Krakken said:


> Its hard to take you seriously when you make a statement like this.......


care to explain? how many clippers games have you watched??? i've seen almost every single clippers game this season, and gordon is a smart defender capable of becoming a lockdown defender.....he is athletic, very strong, has great lateral quickness, with very quick hands......he doesn't give up on plays and as a one on one defender, he can become special on the defensive side of the ball......the clippers suffered many injuries that forced gordon to shoulder the scoring load for many games.....not only did he score, but on the defensive side he was assigned to the opposition's best perimeter player....

team defense is a whole different animal, and the clippers straight up suck at team defense......they have their games where they look decent, but it seems like as a whole, the clippers have no concept of rotating on defense......hard to point out gordon's strengths and weaknesses in this context, because the team sucks so bad as a whole....





> This is a contradiction, and inaccurate. If you want to know what its like to get "no calls"...watch Derrick Rose play this season. He gets hacked almost every time he attacks the rim. If they called him like they did someone like wade, he'd average 10fta's a game.


it is in no way inaccurate, nor a contradiction......in the rookie class, he is only behind westbrook in ft attempts/makes.....

the rookie treatment that you claim rose gets about being hacked could also be applied to gordon.....if you have seen gordon play, you would agree.....he never gets calls, and in order for him to earn a trip to the line, he has to get absolutely mauled.....not really a matter of opinion here, if you've seen clippers game, you would know that's the way it is......if gordon got the wade treatment, he would get 15 ft attempts per game...




> No doubt. But:
> 
> a) They aren't that far apart, and
> 
> b) The league is littered with great scorers, so that makes him kinda "me too". He's more Ben Gordon than he is Kobe or Dwayne Wade. Which isn't a bad thing. But if you put Ben Gordon from his rookie season in last years draft class, there isn't a man in the league that would take him OVER derrick Rose. There's a reason why Rose went first. There's a reason why Gordon went where he did (was it top 5?).....


they aren't far apart, true.....and if you look at the rest of their stats, in the categories that rose leads in, he doesn't lead by much either......the only distinct advantage rose has, is in assists.....and since gordon plays the 2 spot and plays off the ball, his lack of assists is understandable....

however, as the gap between rose and gordon is significant in the assists category, so is the gap in 3 pt shooting.....gordon makes more 3 pointers, and does so at a higher rate....


and it is agreed that the league is "littered" with scorers......great pg's are few and far between......however, good centers are even harder to find than pg's.....it can be argued that lopez has played the center position just as good as rose has played the pointguard position......does that make lopez "better" than rose because centers are less abundant than points???




> That's absurd. Pippen played the 3 and handled it more than anyone. Wade plays the 2 and handles it more than anyone. Gordon doesn't hadle the ball as much because he's not the best ball-handler, end of discussion. If he was THAT good a ball-handler, he'd be a PG, instead of an undersized SG.


and you are comparing the championship bulls to the 09 clippers??? thats funny......the bulls had a sharpshooting 1 and jordan at the 2......it was pippen's job to run the offense.....he was a point foward by design.....and the heat have chalmers at the one.....a shooter who spreads the floor.....it is by design that wade runs the offense.....


the clippers spent 60 million on baron davis and dunleavy has a very tightly regimented offensive system that utilizes baron at the one spot.......gordon doesn't handle the ball, but it's not due to some deficiency, but rather through design.....


the way you put it, it sounds like this: "gordon must suck at handling the ball, he can't even beat out baron at the 1 spot".....




> Lets agree to disagree.....


sure...





> I disagree here as well. What they do is important. Playing PG is BY FAR the single most difficult thing to do at the NBA level. That Rose is playing PG at the same level that Gordon is playing SG as a rookie is a testament to Rose. That's why he gets the nod.



like i said before, if positional scarcity is a concern, then lopez should win it over everyone...


----------



## NewAgeBaller

The Krakken said:


> This is a contradiction, and inaccurate. If you want to know what its like to get "no calls"...watch Derrick Rose play this season. He gets hacked almost every time he attacks the rim. If they called him like they did someone like wade, he'd average 10fta's a game.


I guarantee you, the same treatment is given to Beasley, particularly earlier in the season.

Its just the rookie thing I guess.


----------



## HB

All rookies get the same treatment, its not just a few players not getting calls.


----------



## bootstrenf

NewAgeBaller said:


> I guarantee you, the same treatment is given to Beasley, particularly earlier in the season.
> 
> Its just the rookie thing I guess.





HB said:


> All rookies get the same treatment, its not just a few players not getting calls.


wholeheartedley agree......


----------



## The Krakken

Rose absolutely owned tonight. From the second quarter on, he looked MARKEDLY better than Westbrook.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

I'd rank them like this for the season: 

1. Derrick Rose - Best overall numbers, and he has the most responsibility and is the best player on a decent (playoff) team. All of the other candidates have smaller roles on worse teams, so it's hard to argue against Rose. 

2. OJ Mayo - Can flat out score, and has a good enough all around game that you can't say he is one dimensional. 

3. Russell Westbrook - Really explosive all-around player. He will struggle to fit a position but he does a lot of positive things on the court. 

4. Brooke Lopez - Does things you want your big man to do. Good numbers. 

5. Eric Gordon - Has proven he can put the ball in the hoop about as well as anyone in this draft class. People will still question him because of the green light you get playing for LA's JV team.


----------



## Luke

Mayo is going up against Wade tonight, that'l be fun to watch.


----------



## E.H. Munro

The Krakken said:


> Unfortunately for Gordon, the other things are harder to fix, than shooting.
> 
> Its alot easier to become a really good shooter, than it is to become a really good ball-handler or really good passer.


Say what?


----------



## The Krakken

ehmunro said:


> Say what?


Haven't you ever stopped to wonder why there are so many combo guards and so few PG's. From experience, trust, its MUCH MUCH harder to develop PG skills than it is to develop a consistent Jumpshot.


----------



## E.H. Munro

The Krakken said:


> Haven't you ever stopped to wonder why there are so many combo guards and so few PG's. From experience, trust, its MUCH MUCH harder to develop PG skills than it is to develop a consistent Jumpshot.


Haven't you ever stopped to wonder why everyone can't shoot treys at a high percentage given that learning to shoot is such a breeze? Have you ever thought that maybe the reason there are so many combo guards is that there are a lot of guards with complete offensive games? (Because that "HE'S A PURE PASS-FIRST POINTGUARD!!!!" bull**** is basically the fanboy's way of admitting that his favourite guard can't shoot.) Trust me, from experience, it's _much harder_ to learn how to shoot than to learn how to dribble.


----------



## Blue

ehmunro said:


> Haven't you ever stopped to wonder why everyone can't shoot treys at a high percentage given that learning to shoot is such a breeze? Have you ever thought that maybe the reason there are so many combo guards is that there are a lot of guards with complete offensive games? (Because that "HE'S A PURE PASS-FIRST POINTGUARD!!!!" bull**** is basically the fanboy's way of admitting that his favourite guard can't shoot.) *Trust me, from experience, it's much harder to learn how to shoot than to learn how to dribble.*


Tell that to Rashard Lewis...

EDIT: Seriously tho, what he's saying that poor shooting is something that can easily be taught & corrected. Poor dribbling & poor court vision are things that are harder to correct @ this level if one doesn't have it naturally.


----------



## The Krakken

ehmunro said:


> Haven't you ever stopped to wonder why everyone can't shoot treys at a high percentage given that learning to shoot is such a breeze?


Who said anything about shooting treys? You are talking about the upper limits of ability. I'm talking about increasing abilities. There's a difference.



> Have you ever thought that maybe the reason there are so many combo guards is that there are a lot of guards with complete offensive games?


Hardly. That's a nice way of saying they didn't master anything. The BEST combo guards have, but the OVERWHELMING majority of them are COMBO guards because they can't play the PG effectively for long stints.....NOT because they can't play the SG spot. Ben Gordon and Devin Harris are perfect examples, though their games are very different. Jerryd Bayless is another. Derrick Rose may yet be another (remains to be seen). I could keep going. Be honest with yourself and ask this: How many combo guards would be effective shooting guards. Now ask this: How many of them have the PG skills to run a team. I'm willing to bet that in a moment of complete honesty, the latter number is much smaller than the former.



> (Because that "HE'S A PURE PASS-FIRST POINTGUARD!!!!" bull**** is basically the fanboy's way of admitting that his favourite guard can't shoot.)


Except I'm not arguing that at all. My point is, Derrick Rose has TIME to DEVELOP a shot. Not that he HAS ONE NOW. You, like so many before you, seem to take the approach that arguaing against statements or thoughts I didn't infer is the best approach. It isn't. Argue against what I say, not what you thought I said, or wish I said.



> Trust me, from experience, it's _much harder_ to learn how to shoot than to learn how to dribble.


And with your mocking tone, our back and forth exchange--which until now, I thought was at least productive debate as opposed to this juvenile banter--is finished.

Enjoy your hollow victory.


----------



## The Krakken

Blue Magic said:


> Tell that to Rashard Lewis...
> 
> Seriously tho, what he's saying that poor shooting is something that can easily be taught & corrected. Poor dribbling & poor court vision are things that are harder to correct if dont have it naturally.


DOn't bother. I suspect he knew exactly what I was saying. Thanks for the +1 though......


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> Tell that to Rashard Lewis...
> 
> EDIT: Seriously tho, what he's saying that poor shooting is something that can easily be taught & corrected.


Except that it isn't "easily corrected". Christ, look at how long it's taken LeBron just to become an effective spot shooter, and he works as hard on it as anyone in the game. 



Blue Magic said:


> Poor dribbling & poor court vision are things that are harder to correct @ this level if one doesn't have it naturally.


Poor dribbling is easier to correct than poor shooting. Poor awareness is a matter of smarts. Big BBQ's court awareness is leaps and bounds over where it was in November. Some guys are either too stupid ***cough*** Marcus Banks ***cough*** or too insane ***cough*** Ricky Davis ***cough*** to ever really be aware of what's going on around them. But it's not some mystical skill that's impossible to learn. Lots of players manage to do it. As for 'Shard, dribbling effectively in traffic is just _a little_ tougher for a 6'10" guy than a 6'3" one. But, neither Rose nor Gordon are 6'10" and Gordon's already got good handles. I'll wager that Rose never gets to be half the shooter that EG is.


----------



## E.H. Munro

The Krakken said:


> Who said anything about shooting treys? You are talking about the upper limits of ability. I'm talking about increasing abilities. There's a difference.


I thought "learning to shoot is easy is easy"? If it's that easy surely players should have an easier time shooting spot threes than hitting contested jumpers from closer in, no? I mean, in the shooting skills category, learning to shoot from a specific spot is much easier than learning to shoot off the dribble. So everyone should be able to learn to spot for threes with just a little practise, right?



The Krakken said:


> Hardly. That's a nice way of saying they didn't master anything. The BEST combo guards have, but the OVERWHELMING majority of them are COMBO guards because they can't play the PG effectively for long stints.....NOT because they can't play the SG spot. Ben Gordon and Devin Harris are perfect examples, though their games are very different. Jerryd Bayless is another. Derrick Rose may yet be another (remains to be seen). I could keep going. Be honest with yourself and ask this: How many combo guards would be effective shooting guards. Now ask this: How many of them have the PG skills to run a team. I'm willing to bet that in a moment of complete honesty, the latter number is much smaller than the former.


You're way, way out of your depth here. No one's harder on Devin Harris than I am (he's a stat stuffer, he's in his ideal spot, really), but Harris can most certainly be a lead guard. He needs to work on his shooting more, though. He bricks too many mid-range shots off the dribble and still doesn't spot shoot effectively. Oh, wait, what am I saying, shooting is easy to learn, so he must be good after so many years of working on his jumper. It must be my imagination that he struggles to keep his 3FG% over .300, right?



The Krakken said:


> Except I'm not arguing that at all. My point is, Derrick Rose has TIME to DEVELOP a shot. Not that he HAS ONE NOW. You, like so many before you, seem to take the approach that arguaing against statements or thoughts I didn't infer is the best approach. It isn't. Argue against what I say, not what you thought I said, or wish I said.


Not only did you infer that learning to shoot was easy and that he'd pick it up in no time at all, you actually said it. The problem with this claim is that NBA history is littered with guys that shot hundreds of thousands of practise jumpers in an attempt to become good at it, and never manage it. If you don't learn the proper mechanics when you're young, and get used to them with endless repetition, it's much much harder when you're older. Most guys never progress beyond being able to spot shoot. Maybe Rose will become an effective shooter outside ten feet. Maybe not. But "point guard skills" aren't mystical. Rajon Rondo was playing the 2 at Kentucky while Patrick Sparks was the point. Yet he's become an effective NBA point guard (in spite of the poor shooting). Because far from being some mystical inborn ability, court awareness can be picked up (presuming that you're not as dumb as a pile of bricks or legally insane and willing to put in the time).


----------



## Blue

ehmunro said:


> Except that it isn't "easily corrected". Christ, look at how long it's taken LeBron just to become an effective spot shooter, and he works as hard on it as anyone in the game.
> 
> 
> 
> Poor dribbling is easier to correct than poor shooting. Poor awareness is a matter of smarts. Big BBQ's court awareness is leaps and bounds over where it was in November. Some guys are either too stupid ***cough*** Marcus Banks ***cough*** or too insane ***cough*** Ricky Davis ***cough*** to ever really be aware of what's going on around them. But it's not some mystical skill that's impossible to learn. Lots of players manage to do it. As for 'Shard, dribbling effectively in traffic is just _a little_ tougher for a 6'10" guy than a 6'3" one. But, neither Rose nor Gordon are 6'10" and Gordon's already got good handles.


Noone is saying that awareness is a 'mystical skill'. You can easily be a competant player, but there's a difference in being a competant/aware player and being a player that is able to run an offense efficiently and still be able to get his within the flow of an efficient system AND set up others. Rose can do that. He can run a successful offense, and still get his while setting up others. Gordon is a 2-guard. He pretty much just gets his, and his only. That's the difference.

As for ball handling... I'm not just talking about being able to bring the ball up court and maybe drive the lane. I'm talking about being able to break down anybody you want one-on-one off the [email protected] anytime as you so please. Anybody can learn how to protect the ball and keep your head up, but can you get any shot that you want @ any time in a given game? It's not just about his ball handling, it's his ball handling combined with his quickness combined with his finishing ability, all into one package that makes him special. And he has good court vision and is a willing passer. He's like a mini Dwyane Wade...rookie edition. 

The moral of the story is.... it's easier to find a 'Eric Gordon' than it is to find a 'Derrick Rose'. Pointblankperiod.



> I'll wager that Rose never gets to be half the shooter that EG is.


Half the shooter? I'd take that wager. :biggrin:


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> Noone is saying that awareness is a 'mystical skill'. You can easily be a competant player, but there's a difference in being a competant/aware player and being a player that is able to run an offense efficiently and still be able to get his within the flow of an efficient system AND set up others. Rose can do that. He can run a successful offense, and still get his while setting up others.


Thing is, lots of guys learn how to do it. 



Blue Magic said:


> As for ball handling... I'm not just talking about being able to bring the ball up court and maybe drive the lane. I'm talking about being able to break down anybody you want one-on-one off the [email protected] anytime as you so please. Anybody can learn how to protect the ball and keep your head up, but can you get any shot that you want @ any time in a given game? It's not just about his ball handling, it's his ball handling combined with his quickness combined with his finishing ability, all into one package that makes him special. And he has good court vision and is a willing passer. He's like a mini Dwyane Wade...rookie edition.
> 
> The moral of the story is.... it's easier to find a 'Eric Gordon' than it is to find a 'Derrick Rose'. Pointblankperiod.


If you think it's easy to find guys that shoot like that, you need to subject yourself to more Clippers games. Once you start bringing athletic ability into the equation you're pretty much granting that the whole mystical "He's got pure pointguardyness!!!" nonsense is just that. His physicals separate him from other players that lack his speed and strength, not the nonsense.

As for Gordon, he hits more than half his corner treys (meaning that on those spot up shots with feet set he's ridiculously lethal), he can even shoot treys off the dribble at a high clip. He's pretty much a slightly shorter version of Ray Allen. He's ridiculously good. (And, please, don't try and tell us that Ray Allen is nothing more than a shooter, even in Boston as the fourth option way past his prime he can get most any shot he's looking for).

Edit: You should also look at Rose's shot charts. He has two spots on the floor that he's effective, finishing at the rim and that pull up in the lane. Fortunately for him, he's an effective finisher (something Rondo is learning to do). But Rose is a lot like Tony Parker (another player that seemed to learn to play the point pretty effectively in the NBA).


----------



## Blue

ehmunro said:


> Thing is, lots of guys learn how to do it.


Um, I disagree.... 

You're basically saying that it's easier to learn how to run an NBA offense than it is to improve a jumpshot? No. You can always find a good shooter. You can NOT always find a good PG.



> If you think it's easy to find guys that shoot like that, you need to subject yourself to more Clippers games.


 Courtney Lee can do what Gordon does and we got him with the 22 pick.... It's NOT hard to find guys that shoot like that. 



> Once you start bringing athletic ability into the equation you're pretty much granting that the whole mystical "He's got pure pointguardyness!!!" nonsense is just that. His physicals separate him from other players that lack his speed and strength, not the nonsense.


His athletic ability is a part of HIM... He is a good PG, in part, because he has the athletic ability to get to the points that he needs to get to to make things happen. That is not nonsense. His passing, body control, quickness, finishing ability, etc., are all things that made him the #1 pick. You cant just say that if he lacked those things he would be just like everybody else because he doesnt lack those things....



> As for Gordon, he hits more than half his corner treys (meaning that on those spot up shots with feet set he's ridiculously lethal), he can even shoot treys off the dribble at a high clip. He's pretty much a slightly shorter version of Ray Allen. He's ridiculously good. (And, please, don't try and tell us that Ray Allen is nothing more than a shooter, even in Boston as the fourth option way past his prime he can get most any shot he's looking for).
> 
> Edit: You should also look at Rose's shot charts. He has two spots on the floor that he's effective, finishing at the rim and that pull up in the lane. Fortunately for him, he's an effective finisher (something Rondo is learning to do). But Rose is a lot like Tony Parker (another player that seemed to learn to play the point pretty effectively in the NBA).


I like Gordon, but lets not get carried away. Let's keep in mind that he is playing for the clippers and we've seen alot of guys put up big #'s there. He is a good shooter for sure, but idk why I would want to take him over Rose. Rose just has _*it*_.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> Um, I disagree....


You might, but if you look at the thread title there's a guy up there that made the switch from shooting guard to point just this season. It's not some mystical ability, players have been picking it up from time immemorial.



Blue Magic said:


> You're basically saying that it's easier to learn how to run an NBA offense than it is to improve a jumpshot? No. You can always find a good shooter. You can NOT always find a good PG.
> 
> Courtney Lee can do what Gordon does and we got him with the 22 pick.... It's NOT hard to find guys that shoot like that.


That's a non sequitur. The second part has nothing to do with the first. Can people improve their shot? Sure. Does that mean they'll suddenly morph into good shooters? No. While it takes time to learn to manage an NBA offense, it's generally a matter of improving your awareness and learning the playbook. It helps when you're a physical specimen a la Rose or Westbrook. But a mystical talent it isn't. It's a learned ability.

As for Courtney Lee "doing what Gordon does", aside from playing the same position, the two players have nothing in common. And, ummm, can I now say "you can always find a point guard" given the number of all star/borderline all star point guards that have been picked in the bottom 2/3 of the draft? Starting with Orlando's own Jameer Nelson (20th), or Tony Parker (28th pick), Rajon Rondo (21st pick in a weak draft), Gilbert Arenas (2nd round), and Mo Williams (2nd round). That's before we get into all the serviceable point guards drafted in the last 2/3. Like Rafer Alston, Ramon Sessions, Charlie Bell, Chris Duhon, Daniel Gibson, Aaron Brooks, Kyle Lowry, Mario Chalmers, Jordan Farmar, Steve Blake, Ty Lue, Speedy Claxton... 

You get the point. It would be a stupid argument to make even if the two players were comparable (which they aren't).



Blue Magic said:


> His athletic ability is a part of HIM... He is a good PG, in part, because he has the athletic ability to get to the points that he needs to get to to make things happen. That is not nonsense. His passing, body control, quickness, finishing ability, etc., are all things that made him the #1 pick. You cant just say that if he lacked those things he would be just like everybody else because he doesnt lack those things....


This is irrelevant to Krakken's claim that shooting is easy to pick up because it isn't) but that there's some mystical ability that Rose has (pointguardyness) that's impossible to learn. The fact is that college shooting guards make the transition to the point all the time. It's a regular occurrence, because there are a lot of undersized 2s playing NCAA ball whose path to starting in the NBA lies at the 1. They manage to make the transition. How? If there's some mystical pointguardyness that's impossible to learn, how do guys manage to make the transition? ("AHA!!! Those guys always had mystical pointguardyness! They were just playing out of position!") 

Rose is a smart player with the physicals necessary to make an immediate impact at the 1. But that wasn't Krakken's contention. Russ Westbrook is a smart player with the necessary physicals to play in the NBA. Despite the fact that he was a college 2 he's adjusted to the transition quite well, and his court awareness grows by leaps and bounds. It happens. Just as it does for NFL QBs, who have a much much steeper learning curve than NBA lead guards. Awareness grows, it's a learned skill, not inborn.



Blue Magic said:


> I like Gordon, but lets not get carried away. Let's keep in mind that he is playing for the clippers and we've seen alot of guys put up big #'s there. He is a good shooter for sure, but idk why I would want to take him over Rose. Rose just has _*it*_.


If Gordon were averaging 20p/g on 30 shots a game (we call that a 'Toine up Boston way) you might have a point. Except that he scores from anywhere on the floor, and does it efficiently. (There are really only a couple of spots on the floor that he's ineffective from.) In short, after this post I can see that you haven't watched Eric Gordon at all. Tune in.


----------



## Blue

ehmunro said:


> You might, but if you look at the thread title there's a guy up there that made the switch from shooting guard to point just this season. It's not some mystical ability, players have been picking it up from time immemorial.


I agree that it can be done, but that is why he was 3rd overall pick! People recognized that he was a raw player who could adapt & learn to play where ever you put him... They saw the same thigs in DWill when he came out. He played SG in Illinois for 3-4 years, and then came to the NBA and was a beast @ PG. Gordon is not that guy. Those guys are few and far between.



> That's a non sequitur. The second part has nothing to do with the first. Can people improve their shot? Sure. Does that mean they'll suddenly morph into good shooters? No. While it takes time to learn to manage an NBA offense, it's generally a matter of improving your awareness and learning the playbook. It helps when you're a physical specimen a la Rose or Westbrook. But a mystical talent it isn't. It's a learned ability.


Of course, it's a learned ability. Anything you do in life is 'learned' @ some point...It's just more rare to find a talented PG than it is to find a talented SG. Hence, people are saying it's easier to work on your J than it is to learn how to effectively run a team @ a high level.



> As for Courtney Lee "doing what Gordon does", aside from playing the same position, the two players have nothing in common. And, ummm, can I now say "you can always find a point guard" given the number of all star/borderline all star point guards that have been picked in the bottom 2/3 of the draft? Starting with Orlando's own Jameer Nelson (20th), or Tony Parker (28th pick), Rajon Rondo (21st pick in a weak draft), Gilbert Arenas (2nd round), and Mo Williams (2nd round). That's before we get into all the serviceable point guards drafted in the last 2/3. Like Rafer Alston, Ramon Sessions, Charlie Bell, Chris Duhon, Daniel Gibson, Aaron Brooks, Kyle Lowry, Mario Chalmers, Jordan Farmar, Steve Blake, Ty Lue, Speedy Claxton...
> 
> 
> You get the point. It would be a stupid argument to make even if the two players were comparable (which they aren't).


Are you kidding me? 



> This is irrelevant to Krakken's claim that shooting is easy to pick up because it isn't) but that there's some mystical ability that Rose has (pointguardyness) that's impossible to learn. The fact is that college shooting guards make the transition to the point all the time. It's a regular occurrence, because there are a lot of undersized 2s playing NCAA ball whose path to starting in the NBA lies at the 1. They manage to make the transition. How? If there's some mystical pointguardyness that's impossible to learn, how do guys manage to make the transition? ("AHA!!! Those guys always had mystical pointguardyness! They were just playing out of position!")


Like I said, of course the position can be learned... it's just alot rarer to find that guy than it is to find the pure shooter. And if you do find 'that guy', he's alot more valuable than the pure shooter.



> Rose is a smart player with the physicals necessary to make an immediate impact at the 1. But that wasn't Krakken's contention. Russ Westbrook is a smart player with the necessary physicals to play in the NBA. Despite the fact that he was a college 2 he's adjusted to the transition quite well, and his court awareness grows by leaps and bounds. It happens. Just as it does for NFL QBs, who have a much much steeper learning curve than NBA lead guards. Awareness grows, it's a learned skill, not inborn.


Like I said, of course it is a learned skill that can be worked on, but some people are just virtuosos. They're just naturally gifted @ a given thing. That is Rose. He is a PG through and through. 



> If Gordon were averaging 20p/g on 30 shots a game (we call that a 'Toine up Boston way) you might have a point. Except that he scores from anywhere on the floor, and does it efficiently. (There are really only a couple of spots on the floor that he's ineffective from.) In short, after this post I can see that you haven't watched Eric Gordon at all. Tune in.


I'm not saying he isn't efficient. I said he was a good shooter. I'm saying that idk if his style of play is conducive to winning if he was your #1 guy.


----------



## bootstrenf

ehmunro said:


> If Gordon were averaging 20p/g on 30 shots a game (we call that a 'Toine up Boston way) you might have a point. Except that he scores from anywhere on the floor, and does it efficiently. (There are really only a couple of spots on the floor that he's ineffective from.) In short, after this post *I can see that you haven't watched Eric Gordon at all*. Tune in.


+1

exactly.....many people are saying a lot of things about gordon that they wouldn't be saying, if they had ever seen him play.....lol...


----------



## Blue

^Seriously, what makes Eric Gordon so much more special than a Courtney Lee? Answer me that, cause I really dont see it! He is good player for sure, but his skills are far from unique. Give me DRose every time!


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> I agree that it can be done, but that is why he was 3rd overall pick! People recognized that he was a raw player who could adapt & learn to play where ever you put him... They saw the same thigs in DWill when he came out. He played SG in Illinois for 3-4 years, and then came to the NBA and was a beast @ PG. Gordon is not that guy. Those guys are few and far between.


And yet despite the fact that almost no one can ever learn the position because it's so mystical shooting guards transition to the point from every single draft. Including Westbrook. And you've now resorted to the "They learn to play pointguard because they have mystical pointguardyness!!!" argument. It's the same sort of circular argument that young earth creationists and conspiracy theorists use. Players make the transition from shooting guard to point guard regularly because they're smart enough to learn the position. It's not mystical. It's not inborn. 



Blue Magic said:


> Of course, it's a learned ability. Anything you do in life is 'learned' @ some point...It's just more rare to find a talented PG than it is to find a talented SG. Hence, people are saying it's easier to work on your J than it is to learn how to effectively run a team @ a high level.


You're moving the goalposts now. That was not the claim that you were supporting. The claim was that it was easy to learn how to become a good shooter late in life. To this point you haven't been able to show me anyone that miraculously became a good shooter overnight. I have cited examples of some of the greatest players in the history of the game that _didn't_ become great shooters overnight. If you don't master the mechanics when you're young, it becomes much harder later in life. Learning to become a good shooter in your 20s, far from being easy, is actually tough. It took Jordan years to become a good pure shooter, just like it took Kobe 4-6 years to learn. LeBron and Wade still aren't there.



Blue Magic said:


> Are you kidding me?


Says the guy that said that Courtney Lee did everything that Eric Gordon does. But, hey, look at all the all star point guards I listed drafted from 20 and beyond, per _your_ argument that means that "you can always find a point guard", no?



Blue Magic said:


> Like I said, of course it is a learned skill that can be worked on, but some people are just virtuosos. They're just naturally gifted @ a given thing.


But, you see, the same thing is true of players at the other spots, too. 



Blue Magic said:


> I'm not saying he isn't efficient. I said he was a good shooter. I'm saying that idk if his style of play is conducive to winning if he was your #1 guy.


Do you seriously think a team can become a consistent winner without a #1 scorer? There are offensive sets that don't really use lead guards (the triple post and its variants, for one). Kobe Bryant, for example, is basically the closest thing that the Lakers have to a lead guard. Are you going to shift the goalposts again and claim that he has mystical pointguardyness? If the point guard is _so vital_, riddle me this, how many NBA titles do John Stockton, Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, and Steve Nash have between them? (Answer, as many as Dwyane Wade, and only because Wade carried Payton to a title.)


----------



## bootstrenf

Blue Magic said:


> ^Seriously, what makes Eric Gordon so much more special than a Courtney Lee? Answer me that, cause I really dont see it! He is good player for sure, but his skills are far from unique. Give me DRose every time!


if you fail to see the difference between courtney lee and eric gordon, i seriously doubt your credentials as a moderator on a basketball forum...:lol:


----------



## YoYoYoWasup

Courtney Lee is going to be very good. He's quick as lightning, very athletic, and can slash and shoot the ball very well.

I'm not saying he's as good as Gordon, but his stats aren't that impressive because he's playing on a team that's a billion times better than LAC.


----------



## E.H. Munro

YoYoYoWasup said:


> Courtney Lee is going to be very good. He's quick as lightning, very athletic, and can slash and shoot the ball very well.
> 
> I'm not saying he's as good as Gordon, but his stats aren't that impressive because he's playing on a team that's a billion times better than LAC.


I like Courtney Lee, don't get me wrong. He can finish, he has a few spots on the floor that he can spot up from. Eric Gordon he isn't. Gordon's a very creative scorer and a deadeye shooter. He's a lot like Ray Allen.


----------



## Blue

ehmunro said:


> And yet despite the fact that almost no one can ever learn the position because it's so mystical shooting guards transition to the point from every single draft. Including Westbrook. And you've now resorted to the "They learn to play pointguard because they have mystical pointguardyness!!!" argument. It's the same sort of circular argument that young earth creationists and conspiracy theorists use. Players make the transition from shooting guard to point guard regularly because they're smart enough to learn the position. It's not mystical. It's not inborn.


I never said it was 'mystical', you used that word. I'm saying that it is not rare to see players improve their shooting as their career progresses. Especially from their rookie to sophomore year. 
Rookie's shooting low %'s is far from rare man, FAR from rare. Just look @ Chris Paul or KD, case-in-point. Look @ Mike Bibby. It can & has been done.



> You're moving the goalposts now. That was not the claim that you were supporting. The claim was that it was easy to learn how to become a good shooter late in life. To this point you haven't been able to show me anyone that miraculously became a good shooter overnight. I have cited examples of some of the greatest players in the history of the game that _didn't_ become great shooters overnight. If you don't master the mechanics when you're young, it becomes much harder later in life. Learning to become a good shooter in your 20s, far from being easy, is actually tough. It took Jordan years to become a good pure shooter, just like it took Kobe 4-6 years to learn. LeBron and Wade still aren't there.


Wtf? No one said anything about him improving his shot overnight(well, at least i'm not). Much less easily. I'm just saying that it is something that can be fixed, and has been fixed in the past by a plethora of other players. The elephant in the room is that Rose's primary skills are harder to find than Gordon's primary skills, hence that is why we say that it is harder to teach/learn Rose's skills. Sure, some one can easy learn how to dribble well enough to get by, but they cant easily learn how to dribble like a Chris Paul or a DWIll.... much less run an offense like them..




> Says the guy that said that Courtney Lee did everything that Eric Gordon does. But, hey, look at all the all star point guards I listed drafted from 20 and beyond, per _your_ argument that means that "you can always find a point guard", no?


Lol, yeah Tyrune Lue and Charlie Bell were real find's.... give me a break. Sure, you can find 'a PG', but Derrick Rose is more than just 'a PG'. 



> Do you seriously think a team can become a consistent winner without a #1 scorer? There are offensive sets that don't really use lead guards (the triple post and its variants, for one). Kobe Bryant, for example, is basically the closest thing that the Lakers have to a lead guard. Are you going to shift the goalposts again and claim that he has mystical pointguardyness? If the point guard is _so vital_, riddle me this, how many NBA titles do John Stockton, Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, and Steve Nash have between them? (Answer, as many as Dwyane Wade, and only because Wade carried Payton to a title.)


Wtf is up with you and this 'mystical pointgaurdyness' ****..... no one is saying anything is mystical other than you.... Everything in life is learned, period. No body is coming out of the womb PG as a young phenom, but certain skills are just more valued than others because they are more rare. It's a simple concept.

And yes, a good PG is pretty key to having a successful team. Obviously, a Jordan, or a Kobe, or a Wade, or LBJ is nice to have.... but if you dont have one of them or a great big man, it would be nice to have a good PG, 1st and foremost. I'm not saying that a PG is the key to winning champioships, but it certainly helps. Usually all the great PG's throughout history managed to always be on good/competitive teams. Guys like Magic & Isiah were good, Stockton went to 3 finals but a guy named MJ was in the way, Kidd went 1 and has seemingly always been on a good team, etc...


----------



## Blue

bootstrenf said:


> if you fail to see the difference between courtney lee and eric gordon, i seriously doubt your credentials as a moderator on a basketball forum...:lol:



So say's the guy who fails to see the difference between Eric Gordon and Derrick Rose... :lol:


----------



## bootstrenf

Blue Magic said:


> So say's the guy who fails to see the difference between Eric Gordon and Derrick Rose... :lol:



so says the fella who seems to have serious problems with reading comprehension......


go back and read my posts regarding rose vs. gordon......all i do is list their differences.....


one of my main points of contention is that they can't be directly compared because of their *different* skillsets and the *different* positions they each play.....


but, nice try anyways......lmao.....:lol:


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> I never said it was 'mystical', you used that word. I'm saying that it is not rare to see players improve their shooting as their career progresses. Especially from their rookie to sophomore year.
> Rookie's shooting low %'s is far from rare man, FAR from rare. Just look @ Chris Paul or KD, case-in-point. Look @ Mike Bibby. It can & has been done.


Except that you're now listing guys that were effective shooters in college and before that merely needed to adjust to the speed/defense of the NBA game. Is Rajon Rondo an effective jumpshooter? How about Earl Watson? Brevin Knight? Those are the guys you need to look at. Mike Bibby shot treys at a 40% clip in college, a bad shooter he wasn't. Chris Paul's 3FG% was even higher. Durant's shooting mechanics have been inspiring orgasms in hoops junkies since he was a high school sophomore. _None_ of those guys entered the NBA needing to learn _how_ to shoot.



Blue Magic said:


> Wtf? No one said anything about him improving his shot overnight(well, at least i'm not). Much less easily. I'm just saying that it is something that can be fixed, and has been fixed in the past by a plethora of other players. The elephant in the room is that Rose's primary skills are harder to find than Gordon's primary skills, hence that is why we say that it is harder to teach/learn Rose's skills. Sure, some one can easy learn how to dribble well enough to get by, but they cant easily learn how to dribble like a Chris Paul or a DWIll.... much less run an offense like them..


The thing is, Westbrook isn't that far behind Rose, despite not having been a point guard at all. The only thing they have that can't be taught is the explosiveness. 




Blue Magic said:


> Lol, yeah Tyrune Lue and Charlie Bell were real find's.... give me a break. Sure, you can find 'a PG', but Derrick Rose is more than just 'a PG'.


Yeah, Agent Zero, Tony Parker, Jameer Nelson, Rajon Rondo, they all suck. No point guard chosen outside of the top 5 has ever done anything in the NBA... :lol:



Blue Magic said:


> And yes, a good PG is pretty key to having a successful team. Obviously, a Jordan, or a Kobe, or a Wade, or LBJ is nice to have.... but if you dont have one of them or a great big man, it would be nice to have a good PG, 1st and foremost. I'm not saying that a PG is the key to winning champioships, but it certainly helps. Usually all the great PG's throughout history managed to always be on good/competitive teams. Guys like Magic & Isiah were good, Stockton went to 3 finals but a guy named MJ was in the way, Kidd went 1 and has seemingly always been on a good team, etc...


Really? Kidd & Payton were _always_ on good teams? (Hint, a good team traded for Jason Kidd, who in turn traded him to another good team, which has a lot more to do with it.)



Blue Magic said:


> So say's the guy who fails to see the difference between Eric Gordon and Derrick Rose... :lol:


He is able to see the difference between them.


----------



## Blue

ehmunro said:


> Except that you're now listing guys that were effective shooters in college and before that merely needed to adjust to the speed/defense of the NBA game. Is Rajon Rondo an effective jumpshooter? How about Earl Watson? Brevin Knight? Those are the guys you need to look at. Mike Bibby shot treys at a 40% clip in college, a bad shooter he wasn't. Chris Paul's 3FG% was even higher. Durant's shooting mechanics have been inspiring orgasms in hoops junkies since he was a high school sophomore. _None_ of those guys entered the NBA needing to learn _how_ to shoot.


33% from in college is not 'effective'?



> The thing is, Westbrook isn't that far behind Rose, despite not having been a point guard at all. The only thing they have that can't be taught is the explosiveness.


Westbrook is a good player. His handles cant touch Rose's tho... 




> Yeah, Agent Zero, Tony Parker, Jameer Nelson, Rajon Rondo, they all suck. No point guard chosen outside of the top 5 has ever done anything in the NBA... :lol:


Yeah, cuz that's exactly how I feel. :krazy: 

All those guys were great players in college who were just slept on.... It's not like they were ****ty PG's at any point in there career's who underwent some kind of drastic development.... Jameer was College player of the year & PG who led St Johns to an undefeated reg. season, Rondo was a McD's all american PG coming out of HS, Gilbert was always a big time scorer. The only guy I cant speak for is Tony Parker.... He was an unknown just like most foriegn players are... 




> Really? Kidd & Payton were _always_ on good teams? (Hint, a good team traded for Jason Kidd, who in turn traded him to another good team, which has a lot more to do with it.)


More time's than not, prime Kidd always led successful teams... He took NJ to the finals w/ who, Kerry Kittles, KMart, and RJ? Prime Gary Payton always had his sonics in the mix... He led some very good sonic teams back in the day, and made it to the finals on his own, before bandwaggoning. Fact is, a team with a great PG is almost a lock to be a competitive team. Now, being competitive and winning championships are different things. You can win championships with average/above average PG's if you have great big men or elite wing play.



> He is able to see the difference between them.


I didn't see his earlier post about it, i just saw him jumping on me so I grouped him with you with not being able to distinguish the value of the two. I disagree with him though on the basis that you cant effectively compare them because of their positions.... That's a cop out. 

And I also disagree about Lee. Lee has been a more efficient scorer than Gordon, but it is laughable to compare them when all you guys talk about is Gordon's efficiency? Has he not seen Lee?? He is more than just a spot a shooter with some hot spots... he can finish @ the rim, he can pull it up mid-range, or he can spot up from three. He's done all of those on a regular basis with more efficiency than Gordon. His #'s defensively are comparable to Gordon's despite playing 10 less minutes per game.... Now that he's been starting, his #'s have been going up drastically. And he's doing it within a winning system, unlike Gordon.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> 33% from in college is not 'effective'?


No, a 33% trey shooter isn't terribly good. Unless you're changing your argument again and now arguing that Derrick Rose is a good jumpshooter.



Blue Magic said:


> Yeah, cuz that's exactly how I feel. :krazy:


Apparently so given your claims about Courtney Lee vis a vis Eric Gordon.



Blue Magic said:


> All those guys were great players in college who were just slept on.... It's not like they were ****ty PG's at any point in there career's who underwent some kind of drastic development.... Jameer was College player of the year & PG who led St Johns to an undefeated reg. season, Rondo was a McD's all american PG coming out of HS, Gilbert was always a big time scorer. The only guy I cant speak for is Tony Parker.... He was an unknown just like most foriegn players are...


Jameer Nelson went to an A-10 school. Gilbert, the big time scorer, averaged 15 or 16 a game in college. Rajon Rondo was just a guard coming out of high school, far far more the repeatedly disparaged combo guard than a "pure point guard". Enough so that Kentucky moved him to the 2 spot. He did have the physicals to play the 1 in the NBA, though, and the head to learn the spot. Which, even you'll need to admit, is a lot harder at the NBA level than the college one. They were also all guards drafted in the bottom 2/3 of the draft, which per _your_ claims means that "you can always find one".



Blue Magic said:


> More time's than not, prime Kidd always led successful teams... He took NJ to the finals w/ who, Kerry Kittles, KMart, and RJ? Prime Gary Payton always had his sonics in the mix... He led some very good sonic teams back in the day, and made it to the finals on his own, before bandwaggoning. Fact is, a team with a great PG is almost a lock to be a competitive team. Now, being competitive and winning championships are different things. You can win championships with average/above average PG's if you have great big men or elite wing play.


Well, once again you've moved the goalposts. But, really, the same is true of most superstars regardless of position. How many losing teams did Shaq lead before his unfortunate demise? How many losing teams did Hakeem lead? How many did Karl Malone lead? Charles Barkley? As long as you have the right roleplayers around them, they tend to take teams places.



Blue Magic said:


> And I also disagree about Lee. Lee has been a more efficient scorer than Gordon, but it is laughable to compare them when all you guys talk about is Gordon's efficiency? Has he not seen Lee?? He is more than just a spot a shooter with some hot spots... he can finish @ the rim, he can pull it up mid-range, or he can spot up from three. He's done all of those on a regular basis with more efficiency than Gordon. His #'s defensively are comparable to Gordon's despite playing 10 less minutes per game.... Now that he's been starting, his #'s have been going up drastically. And he's doing it within a winning system, unlike Gordon.


Have a look at Lee's shot chart. Then compare it to Gordon's. There is no comparison. And, no, Courtney Lee hasn't scored as efficiently as Eric Gordon has, despite having a much smaller role in his offense, while playing with a big man that commands a doubleteam. Swap their spots and the Magic would probably be running away with the East. (His ability to shoot combined with his ability to get to the rim, on the floor with that bunch of shooters would be the final shot in the arm that that offense needed.)


----------



## The Krakken

Okay buddy, I'm calling you out as a bald faced liar. I challenge you to produce one segment in this thread where I SAID SHOOTING IS EASY. *I NEVER SAID THAT*!!!!! WHAT I DID SAY IS THAT *IMPROVING YOUR SHOOTING IS EASIER THAN IMPROVING YOUR PG SKILLS*!!!! So, again, it makes the rest of your ridiculous response moot.

As for the rest of your arguments, I'd take them apart 1 by 1....(like the ridiculous assertion that Westbrook is now somehow a PG)....but I swore I'd steer clear of arguing any further with you. 

But please for the love of god....STOP LYING ON ME ABOUT WHAT I SAID!!!!!!!


----------



## E.H. Munro

The Krakken said:


> Its alot easier to become *a really good shooter*, than it is to become a really good ball-handler or really good passer.


Happy? A _really good shooter_ would need to be able to do more than find a couple of spots on the floor that he can shoot with his feet set. That's clearly a claim that it's not too hard for for someone to turn into Reggie Miller or Ray Allen (which is, naturally, why so many players manage to do it.)


----------



## eternal_now

I think Rose is in a different league right now, no disrespect to other excellent rookies, but Rose might get the award.. 

besides the fact that he's in my favorite team and the fact that the bulls are much more closer making it to the playoffs compared to guys like Lopez, and Mayo.. That might be another bonus..

PS: I know for a fact that there are ROY winners who werent in a playoff team like what happened to Okafor and Gordon..


----------



## Blue

ehmunro said:


> No, a 33% trey shooter isn't terribly good. Unless you're changing your argument again and now arguing that Derrick Rose is a good jumpshooter.


Michael Redd was 31.9% career 3pt shooter in college. What happened to his J?



> Apparently so given your claims about Courtney Lee vis a vis Eric Gordon.


I said, you could get production like Gordon's alot easier than you can get production like Rose's. Espececially considering that the production we're comparing is coming from rookie's. I used Courtney Lee as an example, given that his %'s and overall #'s and production are comparable to Gordon's and he was taken almost 20 picks later in the same draft class. Not even TP was as good as Rose was as a rookie. Even TP's 2nd year #'s weren't as good as Rose's outside of 3's, but i fully expect Rose to improve there. It's rare to see a PG come in droppin dime's and breaking ankles like Rose has been doing tho, and he is someone clutch and has a great drive. Like I said, he just has *it*.



> Jameer Nelson went to an A-10 school. Gilbert, the big time scorer, averaged 15 or 16 a game in college. Rajon Rondo was just a guard coming out of high school, far far more the repeatedly disparaged combo guard than a "pure point guard". Enough so that Kentucky moved him to the 2 spot. He did have the physicals to play the 1 in the NBA, though, and the head to learn the spot. Which, even you'll need to admit, is a lot harder at the NBA level than the college one. They were also all guards drafted in the bottom 2/3 of the draft, which per _your_ claims means that "you can always find one".


Lol, no. Rondo was an McD's all-american PG coming out of HS. With games on the line, he was bringing the ball up the court in college. I remember vividly, because I used to watch alot of SEC ball when I was living in G'Ville. Jameer Nelson was NCAA player of the year. You can try to downplay that, but it is a FACT. Gilbert, was just a guy who put it hard work. He was a 29% 3pt shooter his freshman year in college, and now he is Hibachi. 



> Well, once again you've moved the goalposts. But, really, the same is true of most superstars regardless of position. How many losing teams did Shaq lead before his unfortunate demise? How many losing teams did Hakeem lead? How many did Karl Malone lead? Charles Barkley? As long as you have the right roleplayers around them, they tend to take teams places.


True.



> Have a look at Lee's shot chart. Then compare it to Gordon's. There is no comparison. And, no, Courtney Lee hasn't scored as efficiently as Eric Gordon has, despite having a much smaller role in his offense, while playing with a big man that commands a doubleteam. Swap their spots and the Magic would probably be running away with the East. (His ability to shoot combined with his ability to get to the rim, on the floor with that bunch of shooters would be the final shot in the arm that that offense needed.)


Um, maybe you should recheck that shot chart cuz there is very much a comparison. And yes, the %'s say that Lee has been more efficient than Gordon, much less comparably efficient. Plus, Lee's on ball defense has been his greatest asset to the team. Gordon's offensive efficiency hasn't been any greater than Lee's for you to assume that the Magic would be soo much better off with him while the sacrificing the D that Lee provides. We have enough offense here already, but Lee's D is what got him the starting spot. His offensive efficiency as a starter has just been a pleasant surprise.


----------



## bootstrenf

Blue Magic said:


> Um, maybe you should recheck that shot chart cuz there is very much a comparison. And yes, the %'s say that Lee has been more efficient than Gordon, much less comparably efficient. Plus, Lee's on ball defense has been his greatest asset to the team. Gordon's offensive efficiency hasn't been any greater than Lee's for you to assume that the Magic would be soo much better off with him while the sacrificing the D that Lee provides. We have enough offense here already, but Lee's D is what got him the starting spot. His offensive efficiency as a starter has just been a pleasant surprise.



you do know that gordon is an excellent one-on-one defender, right?

gordon is the one who is always assigned to the other team's best perimeter player.....


he is very strong, has great quickness, is a great leaper, always fights over screens, contests shots, and has quick hands.....he has the tools to become a great defender, and he is using those tools to prove it on the court....

if gordon were to be switched for lee, the magic would not be losing anything on the defensive side of the ball...defense is one of gordon's greatest assets...


of course, you would know this if you had seen him play.....


by the way, how exactly is lee more efficient than gordon on the offensive end???

why don't we compare true shooting percentages.....by the way, TS% combines 2point shots, 3point shots, and free throws......


lee's TS% 57.5%
gordon TS% 59.2%

there goes your efficiency arguement...


----------



## The Krakken

ehmunro said:


> Happy? A _really good shooter_ would need to be able to do more than find a couple of spots on the floor that he can shoot with his feet set. That's clearly a claim that it's not too hard for for someone to turn into Reggie Miller or Ray Allen (which is, naturally, why so many players manage to do it.)


You're guilty of the same thing you accuse Blue Magic of: Moving the goalposts to suit your argument.

Nope that isn't the claim at all. Reggie and Ray are GREAT shooters. In fact they are REALLY GREAT shooters. Really good shooters? John Salmons comes to mind (by the way, he couldn't shoot much when he first got into the league. Really good shooters are people like Dwayne Wade (he's not great, but he's MUCH better than he used to be....in fact, he used to be like Rose). John Stockton was a really good shooter. Not great, but really good. Grant hill is a very good shooter. He wasn't when he came into the league, but he is now. Same with MJ. Back to Wade: He'll never be a killer from 3pt range, but he rarely takes bad jumpshots, and knocks them down pretty consistently now, which brings me to two other points:

1) You don't need range out to 30 feet to be a really good jumpshooter. Just stop.

2) Being a really good jumpshooter is as much about SHOT SELECTION, as it is about range and ability.

Had you simply explored what I was saying, or even ASKED what I was suggesting, instead of setting up an artificial target to knock down with your phony outrage, then this argument would have taken an entirely different tone.

Again, I'm not saying it's easy to become Reggie Miller. But Reggie Miller was never my target.

And FWIW--Tony parker is a MUCH MUCH better shooter now than he was when he came into the league. And Rose is already at LEAST on par with him as far as jumpshots go. It isn't a stretch to suggest that he'll be pretty good from 20 feet inward....which frankly is all he really needs.

Hopefully that explains a bit better what MY criteria are for being a really good shooter. After all, it was MY point that was being made, I think I have the right to define MY argument on MY terms, not yours.


----------



## Blue

bootstrenf said:


> you do know that gordon is an excellent one-on-one defender, right?
> 
> gordon is the one who is always assigned to the other team's best perimeter player.....
> 
> 
> he is very strong, has great quickness, is a great leaper, always fights over screens, contests shots, and has quick hands.....he has the tools to become a great defender, and he is using those tools to prove it on the court....
> 
> if gordon were to be switched for lee, the magic would not be losing anything on the defensive side of the ball...defense is one of gordon's greatest assets...
> 
> 
> of course, you would know this if you had seen him play.....
> 
> 
> by the way, how exactly is lee more efficient than gordon on the offensive end???
> 
> why don't we compare true shooting percentages.....by the way, TS% combines 2point shots, 3point shots, and free throws......
> 
> 
> lee's TS% 57.5%
> gordon TS% 59.2%
> 
> there goes your efficiency arguement...


Ok, Gordon's a better FT shooter but in terms eFG% Lee is better. So my efficiency argument is actually stronger than ever.... eFG% combines 2's & 3's and takes into account the fact that 3's are worth 1 more point than 2's while leaving out the freebees. 

Lee's eFG% .546
Gordon's eFG% .521

As far as defense...

Lee's DWS 2.6
Gordon's DWS 0.7

But after all, we're splitting hairs. They both pretty comparable players, just admit it and move on.

http://www.basketball-reference.com...sum=1&p1=leeco01&y1=2009&p2=gordoer01&y2=2009


----------



## bootstrenf

Blue Magic said:


> Ok, Gordon's a better FT shooter but in terms eFG% Lee is better. So my efficiency argument is actually stronger than ever.... eFG% combines 2's & 3's and takes into account the fact that 3's are worth 1 more point than 2's while leaving out the freebees.
> 
> Lee's eFG% .546
> Gordon's eFG% .521
> 
> As far as defense...
> 
> Lee's DWS 2.6
> Gordon's DWS 0.7
> 
> But after all, we're splitting hairs. They both pretty comparable players, just admit it and move on.
> 
> http://www.basketball-reference.com...sum=1&p1=leeco01&y1=2009&p2=gordoer01&y2=2009



why leave out freethrows???

how often a player gets to the line is a huge measure of efficiency.....if gordon only got to the line about 1 time per game, like lee, then maybe it's not a big factor and could be thrown out....however, gordon averages about 5 trips to the line per game......that is a huge chunk of his production.....in general, freethrow attempts shows how often a player gets to the rim.....the more shots at the rim, the more efficient the player in terms of scoring...


and you are resorting to defensive win shares??? 

okay, let's analyze this stat.....wins contributed by a player due to his defense.....


lee does indeed have a higher number, but you can't just look at this number by itself.....saying that the magic are a much better team than the clippers would be a huge understatement......

the magic as a team are much better than the clippers and are in postion to get wins on any given night......this gives players like lee more chances to achieve higher win share numbers.......

let's look at the percentage of magic wins contributed to lee's defense......

2.6 divided by 52 wins = 5% of the wins

let's go to gordon:

.7 divided by 17 wins = 4.1% of the wins


gordon can't get wins shares, if the team as a whole don't win many games......



why don't we go to overall win shares???

lee = 3.8
gordon = 4

let's calculate the percentages

lee: 3.8/52 = overall, 7.3% of the magic wins were contributed by lee

gordon: 4/17 = overall, 24% of the clipper wins were contributed by gordon


damn, gordon is 3 times the player lee is......

and what about offensive winshares????

how can lee be so much more offensively efficient, when gordon has the higher raw offensive win share number, and the higher win share percentage numbers also???


----------



## Blue

bootstrenf said:


> why leave out freethrows???
> 
> how often a player gets to the line is a huge measure of efficiency.....if gordon only got to the line about 1 time per game, like lee, then maybe it's not a big factor and could be thrown out....however, gordon averages about 5 trips to the line per game......that is a huge chunk of his production.....in general, freethrow attempts shows how often a player gets to the rim.....the more shots at the rim, the more efficient the player in terms of scoring...
> 
> 
> and you are resorting to defensive win shares???
> 
> okay, let's analyze this stat.....wins contributed by a player due to his defense.....
> 
> 
> lee does indeed have a higher number, but you can't just look at this number by itself.....saying that the magic are a much better team than the clippers would be a huge understatement......
> 
> the magic as a team are much better than the clippers and are in postion to get wins on any given night......this gives players like lee more chances to achieve higher win share numbers.......
> 
> let's look at the percentage of magic wins contributed to lee's defense......
> 
> 2.6 divided by 52 wins = 5% of the wins
> 
> let's go to gordon:
> 
> .7 divided by 17 wins = 4.1% of the wins
> 
> 
> gordon can't get wins shares, if the team as a whole don't win many games......
> 
> 
> 
> why don't we go to overall win shares???
> 
> lee = 3.8
> gordon = 4
> 
> let's calculate the percentages
> 
> lee: 3.8/52 = overall, 7.3% of the magic wins were contributed by lee
> 
> gordon: 4/17 = overall, 24% of the clipper wins were contributed by gordon
> 
> 
> damn, gordon is 3 times the player lee is......
> 
> and what about offensive winshares????
> 
> how can lee be so much more offensively efficient, when gordon has the higher raw offensive win share number, and the higher win share percentage numbers also???


:rotf:

Lol, your taking the 1st two months of the season when Lee barely played and just lumping those #'s all together. Lee #'s have been much better since January onward when he became a starter than those current #'s would indicate. 

When you look @ defense, you generally look @ stls, rebs, & blks. Given 10 less minutes per game and about 20 games early on where he really didnt even get enough PT to even be effective & lee still has the same rpg & spg. Gordon is really only superior in bpg statistically.

And being on a good team isnt necessary the best thing in the world when your dealing with stat stuffing. Being on bad team is actually better because the ball's in you hands more and there is less pressure, so of course you have more oppurtunity's to assert yourself and look good. Lee doesn't get as many oppurtunity's as Gordon does because has to defer to other players for the betterment of team. But his shot selection and efficiency has been outstanding when does assert himself.


----------



## bootstrenf

Blue Magic said:


> :rotf:
> 
> Lol, your taking the 1st two months of the season when Lee barely played and just lumping those #'s all together. Lee #'s have been much better since January onward when he became a starter than those current #'s would indicate.
> 
> When you look @ defense, you generally look @ stls, rebs, & blks. Given 10 less minutes per game and about 20 games early on where he really didnt even get enough PT to even be effective & lee still has the same rpg & spg. Gordon is really only superior in bpg statistically.
> 
> And being on a good team isnt necessary the best thing in the world when your dealing with stat stuffing. Being on bad team is actually better because the ball's in you hands more and there is less pressure, so of course you have more oppurtunity's to assert yourself and look good. Lee doesn't get as many oppurtunity's as Gordon does because has to defer to other players for the betterment of team. But his shot selection and efficiency has been outstanding when does assert himself.



now i know for sure that you have no clue about gordon.....so if you want to get techincal, then we have to also exclude gordon's first month when mobley was starting at the 2 spot......this would bump gordon's numbers up even higher.....gordon only got playing time after mobley and thomas were traded to the knicks for randolph


steals are not really a good indicator of great defense......all steals mean, is that the player took a gamble, left his man, and played the passing lane.....to really gauge defense, you have to watch players play...simple as that......like the factors i mentioned before.....quickness, agility, strength, go over and under screens, foot speed, lateral quickness, etc......you can't gauge defense with how many steals a player gets per game.....


the spurs force the lowest amount of turnovers in the league, does that mean that they suck at defense????



being on a bad team isn't the best thing for stat stuffing either......the opposing defenders are free to double all day because there are no other threats on the floor.....it goes both ways.....


and you make it seem like gordon is a ballhog....he also defers to many people on his team when the team is at full strength......let's see here:

baron davis, zach randolph, al thornton, chris kaman......basically every other starter is higher on the totem pole when it comes to shots......which further proves my point about gordon's efficiency......he produces even with limited touches......


lee might have good shot selection and efficiency, but in no way is he superior to gordon....


----------



## Wade County

Gordon's a scorer, its what he does. Lee is a role player - and hes done a great job to work his way up and take that 2 guard spot. 

This is a deep rookie class - there are many guys who are making big contributions to their teams and unseating veteran players.

Rose, Mayo, Westbrook, Gordon, Lopez, Love, Beasley...alot of the top picks are delivering. Its great to see some suprise late 1st rounders/2nd rounders also playing big for their teams.


----------



## Luke

It's weird, there really hasn't been a signifigant bust this year.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> Michael Redd was 31.9% career 3pt shooter in college. What happened to his J?


After some years he reached the point where he's effective from his spots, mostly if he can shoot with his feet set. If you want confirmation, go look at his shot charts, I'll wager that you'll see that he hits corner treys and that baseline jumper of his. Probably straight threes, too, as he seems to be able to sink from the top of the arc. A really good shooter he isn't.



Blue Magic said:


> I said, you could get production like Gordon's alot easier than you can get production like Rose's. Espececially considering that the production we're comparing is coming from rookie's. I used Courtney Lee as an example, given that his %'s and overall #'s and production are comparable to Gordon's and he was taken almost 20 picks later in the same draft class.


You can keep repeating this, but it's still not true. Swap them (and make no mistakes, Orlando would sacrifice innocent puppies to Set to make the deal) and the Magic are the best team in the east. Lee gets open looks at the basket because he's fourth or fifth on opponents' list of priorities when they're defending the Magic. That's how it is with roleplayers. Battier has, for his career, been a ruthlessly efficient scorer because he's a good spot-up shooter and an offensive afterthought. So he's generally uncovered. The further you move down the option ladder, the more efficient you should be scoring, _especially_ when you're a spot-up shooter playing on the same team as Dwight Howard.



Blue Magic said:


> Not even TP was as good as Rose was as a rookie. Even TP's 2nd year #'s weren't as good as Rose's outside of 3's, but i fully expect Rose to improve there. It's rare to see a PG come in droppin dime's and breaking ankles like Rose has been doing tho, and he is someone clutch and has a great drive. Like I said, he just has *it*.


He scored more efficiently than Rose. His real weakness when he came in was that he wasn't a great finisher (which problem was put to bed by his sophomore campaign). Of course, because of the offense the Spurs run, no one's going to rack up a lot of assists, but he gets his fair share. He's never been a great shooter, but, I guess he's just the exception to the "It's easy to become a pure shooter" rule. Funny, I see lots of exceptions, and not many rules.



Blue Magic said:


> Rondo was an McD's all-american PG coming out of HS. With games on the line, he was bringing the ball up the court in college. I remember vividly, because I used to watch alot of SEC ball when I was living in G'Ville. Jameer Nelson was NCAA player of the year. You can try to downplay that, but it is a FACT. Gilbert, was just a guy who put it hard work. He was a 29% 3pt shooter his freshman year in college, and now he is Hibachi.


Except that Rondo's strength as a point guard wasn't running an offense, it was scoring. On the occasions that Kentucky had him bring the ball up, it was because they wanted him to score the rock. While I know that it's going to be flushed down the memory hole in this thread, because it belies the contention of the existence of mystical pointguardyness, one of the criticisms of him in the draft was that he was a "combo guard". But he had the smarts and the physicals to run an NBA offense, and picked it up.



Blue Magic said:


> Um, maybe you should recheck that shot chart cuz there is very much a comparison. And yes, the %'s say that Lee has been more efficient than Gordon, much less comparably efficient. Plus, Lee's on ball defense has been his greatest asset to the team. Gordon's offensive efficiency hasn't been any greater than Lee's for you to assume that the Magic would be soo much better off with him while the sacrificing the D that Lee provides. We have enough offense here already, but Lee's D is what got him the starting spot. His offensive efficiency as a starter has just been a pleasant surprise.


Courtney Lee- 1.15 PP/FGA
Eric Gordon- 1.18 PP/FGA

And Gordon's done that further up the offensive option line than Lee, with no Dwight Howard to help him out.


----------



## E.H. Munro

The Krakken said:


> You're guilty of the same thing you accuse Blue Magic of: Moving the goalposts to suit your argument.


Noooo. Like most people I thought of a list of really good shooters when you made your asinine claim. Now you're creating a whole brand new list of superlatives so that "really good shooter" means "A guy that can finish at the rim but tosses up lots of bricks outside the lane". Now we have the new krakken list, "Ray Allen isn't really good, he's supercalifragilisticexpialidocious, then there's super-duper neatoriffic, really great, great, and then really good. And Derrick Rose can be really good!!!" 

I have a pretty simple definition, you have to be able to shoot it effectively across the floor, you need to be able to shoot off the dribble, and you need to be able to get your shot. Guys that lack the proper mechanics coming into the NBA nearly never develop them later on. Some become effective shooters, mostly by endless repetitions and finding ways to create space for themselves. A couple of good examples are Kobe and Pierce, but it took both players years to become good shooters (about six years in either case). Pierce, with that butt-ugly jumper of his, is testimony to what can be done if you're willing to shoot a couple of million practise jumpers over the course of an NBA career. But even he only has a few spots on the floor that he's really comfortable with (of course, he's also as strong as an ox and generally able to bull his way to his spots and shed his defender in the process). The same is true with Bryant. And in the end guys like that are the exception, not the rule.



The Krakken said:


> 1) You don't need range out to 30 feet to be a really good jumpshooter. Just stop.


As the only time anyone would take a shot that deep in an NBA game is a broken play at the end of the shotclock or a last second heave, I'm not even sure why you want to make it an issue.



The Krakken said:


> And FWIW--Tony parker is a MUCH MUCH better shooter now than he was when he came into the league. And Rose is already at LEAST on par with him as far as jumpshots go. It isn't a stretch to suggest that he'll be pretty good from 20 feet inward....which frankly is all he really needs.


Tony Parker really isn't a whole lot better than when he came into the league, though. Very effective finisher, playing with Timmeh gets him lots of open shots. If he were playing on the Clippers you'd be leading the denunciation of him. And Tony's the rule.


----------



## Blue

bootstrenf said:


> now i know for sure that you have no clue about gordon.....so if you want to get techincal, then we have to also exclude gordon's first month when mobley was starting at the 2 spot......this would bump gordon's numbers up even higher.....gordon only got playing time after mobley and thomas were traded to the knicks for randolph


Gordon was still getting more minutes from jumpstreet. Courtney only played more than 30+ mins one time before mid january.... And he still has yet to play 40+ minutes more than one time in his career, and that one time was two games ago.... Gordon had played 30+ mins multiple times his 1st month in the league and also played a 40+ min game in his 1st month. He's had much more opportunities to showcase himself compared to Lee if you want to get technical, especially earlier on.



> steals are not really a good indicator of great defense......all steals mean, is that the player took a gamble, left his man, and played the passing lane.....to really gauge defense, you have to watch players play...simple as that......like the factors i mentioned before.....quickness, agility, strength, go over and under screens, foot speed, lateral quickness, etc......you can't gauge defense with how many steals a player gets per game.....


Ok, if you think Lee gets his steals by gambling then you clearly haven't seen much of him.... He's probably one of the more disciplined players on the team, both offensively and defensively. Hardly a gambler. 




> being on a bad team isn't the best thing for stat stuffing either......the opposing defenders are free to double all day because there are no other threats on the floor.....it goes both ways.....


The clipps have plenty of other threats. I remember vividly when the Magic played them in december BD and ZBo were killing us and they were the ones we were focusing on. Definitely not Gordon. The 2nd time was in February and Thornton was the one killing it. That's 3 guys not named Gordon who were killin it when my home team played them. As a matter of fact, as i'm checking the boxscore for the 2nd head-to-head, Clee dominated Gordon. Lee went went 9-10 from the field, Gordon 4-10. Lee went 3-3 from 3, Gordon 0-5. Lee 3 rebs, 4 asts & 1 stl, Gordon 1, 2, & 1. Lee 21 pts, Gordon 14. Lee +31, Gordon -27. Lee 30 mins, Gordon 35. omfg, Gordon dominates Lee! What am I thinking!! How am I a mod to compare these guys!!?



> and you make it seem like gordon is a ballhog....he also defers to many people on his team when the team is at full strength......let's see here:
> 
> baron davis, zach randolph, al thornton, chris kaman......basically every other starter is higher on the totem pole when it comes to shots......which further proves my point about gordon's efficiency......he produces even with limited touches......


Wait a minute, limited touches? A minute ago you were just making it sound like he got triple-teamed every time he touched the ball! :thinking2: Talk about moving the goalposts! :thinking2:



> lee might have good shot selection and efficiency, but in no way is he superior to gordon....


They are pretty comparable imo. apparently it is ridiculous to even mention the two in the same sentance tho. Gordon somehow blows Lee out of the water in every aspect possible, even the #'s dont really show where or how. There are slight & minor differences in their #'s and games, but apparently Lee cant even hold Gordon's jockstrap! I guess I shouldn't be a mod, because I dont think Gordon's game is far superior to Lee's...


----------



## Blue

ehmunro said:


> After some years he reached the point where he's effective from his spots, mostly if he can shoot with his feet set. If you want confirmation, go look at his shot charts, I'll wager that you'll see that he hits corner treys and that baseline jumper of his. Probably straight threes, too, as he seems to be able to sink from the top of the arc. A really good shooter he isn't.


Wow, you might be the only person on planet earth who believes Redd isn't a good shooter. :eek8:



> You can keep repeating this, but it's still not true. Swap them (and make no mistakes, Orlando would sacrifice innocent puppies to Set to make the deal) and the Magic are the best team in the east. Lee gets open looks at the basket because he's fourth or fifth on opponents' list of priorities when they're defending the Magic. That's how it is with roleplayers.


Gordon would be no higher than Lee is on the totem poll... Unless Gordon was shooting 50% from three and sticking his man flawlessly, I dont see how he could really do THAT much better. And the difference between us being the best team is what 5 games? Gordon isn't THAT much better than Lee, please, stop the bull****!



> Battier has, for his career, been a ruthlessly efficient scorer because he's a good spot-up shooter and an offensive afterthought. So he's generally uncovered. The further you move down the option ladder, the more efficient you should be scoring, _especially_ when you're a spot-up shooter playing on the same team as Dwight Howard.


He has a good set shot, but he is more than just a spot up shooter.... That's not the only way he scores.



> He scored more efficiently than Rose. His real weakness when he came in was that he wasn't a great finisher (which problem was put to bed by his sophomore campaign). Of course, because of the offense the Spurs run, no one's going to rack up a lot of assists, but he gets his fair share. He's never been a great shooter, but, I guess he's just the exception to the "It's easy to become a pure shooter" rule. Funny, I see lots of exceptions, and not many rules.


Another ignorant post.



> Except that Rondo's strength as a point guard wasn't running an offense, it was scoring. On the occasions that Kentucky had him bring the ball up, it was because they wanted him to score the rock. While I know that it's going to be flushed down the memory hole in this thread, because it belies the contention of the existence of mystical pointguardyness, one of the criticisms of him in the draft was that he was a "combo guard". But he had the smarts and the physicals to run an NBA offense, and picked it up.


Just stop! Rajon Rondo has ALWAYS and will ALWAYS be a PG!!

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=447705
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Rajon-Rondo-216/




> Courtney Lee- 1.15 PP/FGA
> Eric Gordon- 1.18 PP/FGA
> 
> And Gordon's done that further up the offensive option line than Lee, with no Dwight Howard to help him out.


Like I said, slight differences. That difference is basically the slight difference more in ft% that Gordon has on Lee. You act like if Lee took 4 more shots a game and played 10 more minutes, that his %'s would fall drastically.... laugh


----------



## Prolific Scorer

ehmunro said:


> I. Guys that lack the proper mechanics coming into the NBA nearly never develop them later on. Some become effective shooters, mostly by endless repetitions and finding ways to create space for themselves. A couple of good examples are Kobe and Pierce, but it took both players years to become good shooters (about six years in either case). Pierce, with that butt-ugly jumper of his, is testimony to what can be done if you're willing to shoot a couple of million practise jumpers over the course of an NBA career.


While Pierce has been able to find his stroke again the last 2 seasons, he actually came in the league a good shooter.

Pierce's first 4 years were better than his next 4 years as far as %'s are concerned (and IMO, the form / stroke was better as a youngster too...now his stroke doesn't look quite as fluid as it did when he was fresh in the L.)


----------



## E.H. Munro

Prolific Scorer said:


> While Pierce has been able to find his stroke again the last 2 seasons, he actually came in the league a good shooter.
> 
> Pierce's first 4 years were better than his next 4 years as far as %'s are concerned (and IMO, the form / stroke was better as a youngster too...now he kinda short arms it now, esepcially at the FT line)


Pierce came into the NBA with about two spots that he could knock down threes from if he had his feet set. At the elbows of the arc. Those are still his sweet spots, but he can also shoot them on the sideline and straightaway, as well. But his rookie season he either shot treys from one of those two spots or he took it to the rim. By his sophomore year he became the first option on offense, and so the defense keyed on him and he was no longer able to get those spot up threes the way he had. That's why he looked so shaky thereafter. He had to learn to make that ugly jumper of his work, but it took years for him to get there.



Blue Magic said:


> Wow, you might be the only person on planet earth who believes Redd isn't a good shooter.


I can't possibly be the only person that notices that Redd has about five or six spots on the floor that he's comfortable shooting from, and most of them being in the corners or on the baseline.



Blue Magic said:


> Gordon would be no higher than Lee is on the totem poll... Unless Gordon was shooting 50% from three and sticking his man flawlessly, I dont see how he could really do THAT much better. And the difference between us being the best team is what 5 games? Gordon isn't THAT much better than Lee, please, stop the bull****!


Yes he is. Please stop the homerism. The only thing the two players have in common is the position they play. That's it. Lee can shoot with his feet set in his spots. He gets those shots because he plays with Dwight Howard (and by nature the defenses are keyed to deny Dwight the ball). Give Eric Gordon that kind of edge and he'd really light it up. Put him on the floor with D-Ho, 'Shard, and Turkeyglue, and the Magic would bury opponents.



Blue Magic said:


> Another ignorant post.


Really?

Tony Parker 2002-03: .337 3FG% .423 jumpshooting FG%
Tony Parker 2008-09: .298 3FG% .420 jumpshooting FG%

Yeah, one can see that his jumpshot has improved by leaps and bounds since his arrival in the NBA. (Keep in mind, per 82 games everything outside six feet is a jumper, so that number is inclusive of that floater in the lane that's his specialty).



Blue Magic said:


> Like I said, slight differences. That difference is basically the slight difference more in ft% that Gordon has on Lee. You act like if Lee took 4 more shots a game and played 10 more minutes, that his %'s would fall drastically.... laugh


At this point you're embarrassing the Magic fans on the board. Please stop this nonsense.


----------



## Dornado

ehmunro said:


> After some years he reached the point where he's effective from his spots, mostly if he can shoot with his feet set. If you want confirmation, go look at his shot charts, I'll wager that you'll see that he hits corner treys and that baseline jumper of his. Probably straight threes, too, as he seems to be able to sink from the top of the arc. A really good shooter he isn't.


Michael Redd isn't a really good shooter?


Michael Redd was wallowing on the bench in Milwaukee behind Ray Allen and decided that working on his shot was the best way to elevate his game... it is possible for players to improve on a skill after college, and Michael Redd did exactly that... Michael Redd isn't just a really good shooter, but a great one with an incredibly quick release.


----------



## E.H. Munro

He certainly has a quick release, but he can't really hit it from anywhere on the floor. He's one of those old fashioned shooters that worked on hitting them from a few spots on the floor (it's really the easiest way), and works on getting himself to his spots. There's nothing wrong with that, essentially, because Pierce and (to a lesser degree) Kobe do the same thing. But I wouldn't call either of them really good shooters (though Bryant would be closer than Pierce). Redd's problem is that he lacks Kobe's explosiveness or Pierce's strength to create separation (which is why I think his spots tend to be in the corner or on the baseline, those are the places where his quick release combines with the spacing to give him an open look at the basket).


----------



## Blue

ehmunro said:


> I can't possibly be the only person that notices that Redd has about five or six spots on the floor that he's comfortable shooting from, and most of them being in the corners or on the baseline.


Well, shooting a career 39% from 3 and having 5 or 6 'hotspots' is quite good if you ask me.... But who am I?




> Yes he is. Please stop the homerism. The only thing the two players have in common is the position they play. That's it. Lee can shoot with his feet set in his spots. He gets those shots because he plays with Dwight Howard (and by nature the defenses are keyed to deny Dwight the ball). Give Eric Gordon that kind of edge and he'd really light it up.


No he isn't. And it's not homerism, it's the reality. I've always liked Gordon, but I was just using Lee as an example of how you can easily find a comparable shooter to him. Lee can shoot just as good as Gordon can, if not better(as the #'s indicate).... That is one thing in common right there. According to you, certain ppl you dont like can only shoot good in 'spots'. No! A shooter is a shooter is a shooter. Enough with, 'he has his spots' bull****... It doesn't even make sense. If you can shoot, you can shoot. Period.



> Put him on the floor with D-Ho, 'Shard, and Turkeyglue, and the Magic would bury opponents.


We actually already do bury a good # opponents.... 



> Really?
> 
> Tony Parker 2002-03: .337 3FG% .423 jumpshooting FG%
> Tony Parker 2008-09: .298 3FG% .420 jumpshooting FG%
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, one can see that his jumpshot has improved by leaps and bounds since his arrival in the NBA. (Keep in mind, per 82 games everything outside six feet is a jumper, so that number is inclusive of that floater in the lane that's his specialty).


No one is saying it's easy to become a pure shooter. You're the only one saying that. We're saying that's it's easier to take a pure PG a turn him into an effective shooter, than it is to take a shoot 1st chucker and mold him into an effective true PG. You can always find a shoot 1st PG(hence all the combo guards), but you can't always find good leader who knows how to manage the point the right way and run a successful offense.



> At this point you're embarrassing the Magic fans on the board. Please stop this nonsense.


And you need to stop embarrasing yourself..... You're the one saying that Redd isn't a good shooter and that Rondo was always a combo guard before came into the NBA. Rondo was always a pass 1st PG who's problem was that he couldn't shoot. He was a good slasher and always an excellent passer, but was always hesitant to shoot from deep and shot FT's @ like a 56% clip in college... That is what scared away alot of teams from drafting him, not that they didn't know if he was a 'PG'..... Get it right.

My thing with Lee is that he can shoot just as good as Gordon, if not better, from deep and can do everything he does. You can say i'm crazy, but just look @ the #'s. The #'s dont lie, You can always find guards like that who can shoot it. The thing I like about both of them is that neither of them really fall in love with that perimeter shot and have a good mid-range game and finishing ability. Believe me, I do like Gordon, but to act like his talent is rare is just as stupid as you think I am for comparing two legitimately comparable players...:krazy:

My thing is that, 'that guy' is gonna always be out there. You can always find an undersized two-guard who can shoot. You cant always find a DRose who has the handle, the quicks, the body control, the IQ, and also the drive & the work ethic to maybe someday potentially be an all time great player @ the PG position.


----------



## The Krakken

Blue Magic said:


> No one is saying it's easy to become a pure shooter. You're the only one saying that. We're saying that's it's easier to take a pure PG a turn him into an effective shooter, than it is to take a shoot 1st chucker and mold him into an effective true PG. You can always find a shoot 1st PG(hence all the combo guards), but you can't always find good leader who knows how to manage the point the right way and run a successful offense.
> 
> 
> 
> And you need to stop embarrasing yourself..... You're the one saying that Redd isn't a good shooter and that Rondo was always a combo guard before came into the NBA. Rondo was always a pass 1st PG who's problem was that he couldn't shoot. He was a good slasher and always an excellent passer, but was always hesitant to shoot from deep and shot FT's @ like a 56% clip in college... That is what scared away alot of teams from drafting him, not that they didn't know if he was a 'PG'..... Get it right.


End of discussion. I'm surprised that you are continuing this........


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> No he isn't. And it's not homerism, it's the reality. I've always liked Gordon, but I was just using Lee as an example of how you can easily find a comparable shooter to him. Lee can shoot just as good as Gordon can, if not better(as the #'s indicate).... That is one thing in common right there. According to you, certain ppl you dont like can only shoot good in 'spots'. No! A shooter is a shooter is a shooter. Enough with, 'he has his spots' bull****... It doesn't even make sense. If you can shoot, you can shoot. Period.


No, he isn't. He can't shoot his jumper off the dribble at all. At the end of the day, Lee can shoot spot up jumpers from a couple of spots on the floor. If he can't shoot with his feet set the jumper's going to miss. Of course, playing on a team where he gets to sit uncovered in the corner while teams focus on denying Howard the ball, and about covering 'Shard & Turkeyglue, he gets those shots. Eric Gordon, on the other hand, doesn't get to sit unnoticed in the corner because the Rocky Horror Clipper Show doesn't have anyone like Howard to anchor defenders in the paint.



Blue Magic said:


> No one is saying it's easy to become a pure shooter. You're the only one saying that. We're saying that's it's easier to take a pure PG a turn him into an effective shooter, than it is to take a shoot 1st chucker and mold him into an effective true PG. You can always find a shoot 1st PG(hence all the combo guards), but you can't always find good leader who knows how to manage the point the right way and run a successful offense.


This was not actually the contention that Krakken made. In fact, he's been arguing something completely different. Heck, even you weren't making this argument until just now, and completely gerrymandering your argument.





Blue Magic said:


> And you need to stop embarrasing yourself..... You're the one saying that Redd isn't a good shooter


Noooooooo. I did not include him on my list of really good shooters, and I listed my reasons why. If you want to define "really good shooter" down so that it includes all sorts of people (the Krakken way, where we create 18 categories of superlatives so that we can call guys that aren't good "really good"). Michael Redd doesn't fall into the same mold as guys like Ray Allen because he can't hit his shots from anywhere on the floor. 



Blue Magic said:


> Rondo was always a combo guard before came into the NBA. Rondo was always a pass 1st PG who's problem was that he couldn't shoot. He was a good slasher and always an excellent passer, but was always hesitant to shoot from deep and shot FT's @ like a 56% clip in college... That is what scared away alot of teams from drafting him, not that they didn't know if he was a 'PG'


Which is, of course, why Kentucky played him at the two. Gotcha.



Blue Magic said:


> My thing with Lee is that he can shoot just as good as Gordon, if not better, from deep and can do everything he does. You can say i'm crazy, but just look @ the #'s. The #'s dont lie, You can always find guards like that who can shoot it. The thing I like about both of them is that neither of them really fall in love with that perimeter shot and have a good mid-range game and finishing ability. Believe me, I do like Gordon, but to act like his talent is rare is just as stupid as you think I am for comparing two legitimately comparable players...:krazy:


Courtney Lee does not "Do everything Gordon does, only better". Not even close. You can keep repeating this, but Lee will never get near an all star team unless he finds a way to become a Chinese national hero. He's a roleplayer. He'll be a good one. But that's what he's going to be. Since the fact that all star point guards come from the bottom two thirds of the draft means that I get to say that acting like Rose's talent is rare is stupid, right?



Blue Magic said:


> My thing is that, 'that guy' is gonna always be out there. You can always find an undersized two-guard who can shoot. You cant always find a DRose who has the handle, the quicks, the body control, the IQ, and also the drive & the work ethic to maybe someday potentially be an all time great player @ the PG position.


Ray Allen is "not always out there". You can keep claiming it, but that won't make it true.


----------



## SheriffKilla

I did some PER comparison trying to see how these players MIGHT develop

In the last 10 years the only big men to have higher PERs than Kevin Love in their rookie seasons are Elton Brand, Yao Ming and Pau Gasol.. Carlos Boozer, Dwight Howard, Al Jefferson, Amare Stoudamire, Aldridge are all below him... Brook Lopez is up there too right below Brand, Yao, Gasol, Love and Boozer

Eric Gordon has very similar stats to Ben Gordon in their rookie seasons I also beleive Eric is younger than Ben was...

The only poing guards with higher rookie PERs than Rose and Westbrook in the last 10 years are Steve Francis, Andre Miller, Chris Paul and Dwayne Wade and Brandon Roy even though they aren't really point guards (neither is Westbrook, yet..)



Andrei Kirilenko, Lebron James, Carmelo Anthony, Charlie Villanueva, Lamar Odom, Shawn Marion, Thad Young all have had higher rookie PERs than Michael Beasley but are the only players of similar style to him that did...


----------



## Blue

ehmunro said:


> No, he isn't. He can't shoot his jumper off the dribble at all. At the end of the day, Lee can shoot spot up jumpers from a couple of spots on the floor. If he can't shoot with his feet set the jumper's going to miss. Of course, playing on a team where he gets to sit uncovered in the corner while teams focus on denying Howard the ball, and about covering 'Shard & Turkeyglue, he gets those shots. Eric Gordon, on the other hand, doesn't get to sit unnoticed in the corner because the Rocky Horror Clipper Show doesn't have anyone like Howard to anchor defenders in the paint.


Yeah, whatever. I can already tell that you have no clue what your talking about concerning Lee.



> This was not actually the contention that Krakken made. In fact, he's been arguing something completely different. Heck, even you weren't making this argument until just now, and completely gerrymandering your argument.


How do you gerrymander an arguement? That doesnt even make sense... Either way, we've been inferring that the whole time.... You're just being hard headed. We've basically been saying that great shooter's are easier to find than great PG's.... Hence and we'd rather take a great PG who is a raw shooter, over a great shooter who is a raw PG, and then develop that skill... Because the latter comes a dime a dozen, while the former comes fewer & farther between.



> Noooooooo. I did not include him on my list of really good shooters, and I listed my reasons why. If you want to define "really good shooter" down so that it includes all sorts of people (the Krakken way, where we create 18 categories of superlatives so that we can call guys that aren't good "really good"). Michael Redd doesn't fall into the same mold as guys like Ray Allen because he can't hit his shots from anywhere on the floor.


You can't be serious? :rotf:

I agree that I would take Allen over Redd, but idk how you conclude that Redd is not lethal anywhere on the court...




> Which is, of course, why Kentucky played him at the two. Gotcha.


Florida plays Calathes @ the two as well sometimes.... That doesn't mean that he's a SG turned PG. I really dont know who told you Rondo was ever a SG... I've followed Rondo's young career relatively closely, considering Kentucky is a rival of UF, I dont ever recall Rondo ever being considered a SG until now.. That includes HS, college, and Pro. 

P.S. playing off the ball for stretches does not automatically mean that you are SG. Rondo was always consider a PG from jumpstreet.



> Courtney Lee does not "Do everything Gordon does, only better". Not even close. You can keep repeating this, but Lee will never get near an all star team unless he finds a way to become a Chinese national hero. He's a roleplayer. He'll be a good one. But that's what he's going to be.


How can you put quotes around something I did not say??? :thinking2: I said, 'he can shoot just as good as Gordon, if not better, from deep'(which the #'s confirm)..... and then I said 'and can do everything he does'(meaning Lee can do all the things Gordon can do on the basketball court, which is true). Gordon may be a lil better in certain area's, but certainly not by very much at all... Definately not by enough to say that the two have absolutely nothing in common and Gordon would him blow him away at anything. You guys make it sound like Gordon is some untouchable talent, when he isn't. He is nice little player and I like him, but Lee can certainly do all of the things he does and is a worthy comparison.




> Since the fact that all star point guards come from the bottom two thirds of the draft means that I get to say that acting like Rose's talent is rare is stupid, right?


No. Because nobody that you mentioned was as good as Rose has been as a rookie.... Period. Your looking @ them in their 3rd,4th,5th,6th, & 7th years, and then comparing them to Rose as a rookie. Compare their rookie years to Rose and Rose blows all of those guys away @ a similar stage. 



> Ray Allen is "not always out there". You can keep claiming it, but that won't make it true.


Lol @ you touting Gordon as Ray Allen. Wow you are delusional....


----------



## The Krakken

I find it amusing that he's the only one who "can tell me exactly what I said", and yet, can't even interpret properly what I typed. The worst part is, it needs no interpretation.


----------



## Najee

In other news, I'm glad Greg Oden's name is FINALLY removed from the title.

I'm not going to mention the fact that Oden missed practically a month's worth of action for basically banging into another player's knee -- something one member tried to argue futilely that it wasn't much of an injury.


----------



## Pioneer10

I like Lee but I do think most GM's would consider Gordon close to untouchable in the sense that they would not trade him unless they got close to an All-Star level caliber talent back. He's got some special traits in that he's physical and can shoot. He's basically a bigger version of Ben Gordon who because of his strength can finish inside better. Gordon plays better defense as well. A Ben Gordon who can finish inside and play defense is an All-star level player.

Lee will be a good player but I don't see him as a perenial All-Star


----------



## bootstrenf

Najee said:


> In other news, I'm glad Greg Oden's name is FINALLY removed from the title.
> 
> I'm not going to mention the fact that Oden missed practically a month's worth of action for basically banging into another player's knee -- something one member tried to argue futilely that it wasn't much of an injury.


agreed.....oden hasn't done enough to even be considered....


i still remember people saying that the absolute floor of his production would be a double double......i remember people saying that he would be a good freethrow shooter once his wrist healed......


they also said that the injuries associated with him were one-time, freak injuries that could've befell anyone......that he was just "unlucky" when it came to injuries and that his current injuries in no way reflected his longterm health......


in oden, i see an injury prone center that has trouble getting court time because of his various ailments.....when he does get playing time, he can't be a consistent force because he is so damn foul prone......


i remember some people saying that he would be as good as dwight howard coming into the league as a rookie....not necessarily in terms of stats, but the impact he would make on a game......howard has never missed a game in his whole career......oden is the shaun livingston of centers...


crazy thing is how good the blazers seem to be without him......even if he can only be half the player he was supposed to be according to the hype, they would have a scary good team......once bayless develops, watch out......

imagine if they had taken durant.....

bayless
roy
durant
aldridge
pryzbilla/or any good veteran center for the MLE.....

but, i am going off track here.....


----------



## Blue

bootstrenf said:


> agreed.....oden hasn't done enough to even be considered....
> 
> 
> i still remember people saying that the absolute floor of his production would be a double double......i remember people saying that he would be a good freethrow shooter once his wrist healed......
> 
> 
> they also said that the injuries associated with him were one-time, freak injuries that could've befell anyone......that he was just "unlucky" when it came to injuries and that his current injuries in no way reflected his longterm health......
> 
> 
> in oden, i see an injury prone center that has trouble getting court time because of his various ailments.....when he does get playing time, he can't be a consistent force because he is so damn foul prone......
> 
> 
> i remember some people saying that he would be as good as dwight howard coming into the league as a rookie....not necessarily in terms of stats, but the impact he would make on a game......howard has never missed a game in his whole career......oden is the shaun livingston of centers...
> 
> 
> crazy thing is how good the blazers seem to be without him......even if he can only be half the player he was supposed to be according to the hype, they would have a scary good team......once bayless develops, watch out......
> 
> imagine if they had taken durant.....
> 
> bayless
> roy
> durant
> aldridge
> pryzbilla/or any good veteran center for the MLE.....
> 
> but, i am going off track here.....


I love how I was the biggest hater in the world over the summer for not immediately jumping on the Oden hype machine. I warned all the Blazer fans about his chronic fouling problems, about his injury combined with increased weight/muscle limiting his athleticism & slowing him down... And how, in turn, big men that usually put on alot of bulk quickly usually tend to shoot lower FT%. I was a hater and was called stupid. I hate to say it now, but 'I told you so'. Oden's career is far from over and he can still be a great player, but like i've been saying for awhile, it will definitely take him time to adjust. 

As much as I though he would struggle to adjust tho, not even I can say that I thought he would start this poorly..... There definitely some red flags with him tho that people just did not want to acknowledge.... Hopefully, with a year under his belt he will come out stronger next year.


----------



## bootstrenf

Blue Magic said:


> I love how I was the biggest hater in the world over the summer for not immediately jumping on the Oden hype machine. I warned all the Blazer fans about his chronic fouling problems, about his injury combined with increased weight/muscle limiting his athleticism & slowing him down... And how, in turn, big men that usually put on alot of bulk quickly usually tend to shoot lower FT%. I was a hater and was called stupid. I hate to say it now, but 'I told you so'. Oden's career is far from over and he can still be a great player, but like i've been saying for awhile, it will definitely take him time to adjust.
> 
> As much as I though he would struggle to adjust tho, not even I can say that I thought he would start this poorly..... There definitely some red flags with him tho that people just did not want to acknowledge.... Hopefully, with a year under his belt he will come out stronger next year.


i remember reading some posts where people actually said that oden would not only be an equal, but a better overall player than howard.....


they claimed that oden was just as athletic, had better defensive instincts, better size, and was more "polished" offensively......apparently, howard had no go-to moves in the post, but oden did.....lmao....


oden may indeed become a great player.....but i just don't think he will ever be as good as howard.....even if they have equal stats, i'm sure that howard will always have an advantage in the "games played" column.....durability is a huge issue when it comes to centers, or bigmen in general, and i seriously doubt oden will surpass howard in that department.....


----------



## Luke

Rose with the near triple double today against the Pacers, 16/9/8 as the Bulls win.


----------



## Blue

Rush was a scoring machine in the 1st qtr... He ended up with 29/4/2.


----------



## Najee

bootstrenf said:


> in oden, i see an injury prone center that has trouble getting court time because of his various ailments.....when he does get playing time, he can't be a consistent force because he is so damn foul prone......


Moreover, Greg Oden's brittleness is a concern because he already has had extremely long recovery periods. It took him more than a year to recover from breaking his wrist. Oden bumped knees with Golden State's Corey Maggette and he was out for a month.

The microfracture surgery is another major flag. It's an injury generally associated with years of wear and tear or a traumatic injury, but Oden had neither when he received his diagnosis.

I also have a problem with his motor. He generally appears disinterested, and his athleticism only appears when he is going to dunk. Add in the foul problems and no offensive game, and Oden has way too issues to address if he sseks to become a top-tier player.


----------



## Cap

^ It could be a weight issue too, that would make sense. Seems like a lot of knick-knack injuries, very unfortunate for Blazer fans that after 2 years of investment he hasn't made any/much progress.


----------



## rocketeer

Najee said:


> In other news, I'm glad Greg Oden's name is FINALLY removed from the title.
> 
> I'm not going to mention the fact that Oden missed practically a month's worth of action for basically banging into another player's knee -- something one member tried to argue futilely that it wasn't much of an injury.


i love that you're still coming back to this. the fact is that oden was reported as being day to day and he himself said that he could have played the next night if it had been a real game rather than the rookie sophomore game. he came in assuming he was going to miss a ton of time even though every report said the opposite. and it's not because he had some other knowledge of the situation, he just decided he was going to be out longer. even if in the end he missed more time, you were still wrong at the time and basing your opinion on nothing. my argument with you was completely supported by all the reports at the time.

and no, oden didn't miss practically a month's worth of action from banging knees with another player. he missed time because that caused a bone chip in his knee. andrew bynum is out right now because another player fell into him, i assume that makes him brittle as well too, right?


----------



## Najee

rocketeer said:


> the fact is that oden was reported as being day to day and he himself said that he could have played the next night if it had been a real game rather than the rookie sophomore game. he came in assuming he was going to miss a ton of time even though every report said the opposite. and it's not because he had some other knowledge of the situation, he just decided he was going to be out longer.


Just admit you're wrong. The story originally reported Greg Oden could miss one week -- he ended up missing one month. You're actually trying to argue Oden could have played during the All-Star weekend rookies vs. sophs game, which is a moot point because he missed that game AND THE MONTH AFTER THAT.



rocketeer said:


> and no, oden didn't miss practically a month's worth of action from banging knees with another player. he missed time because that caused a bone chip in his knee.


How did Oden develop the bone chips? BANGING INTO COREY MAGGETTE'S KNEE! Do you realize how silly your argument is? Not to mention it's a straw man argument, trying to draw a comparison to Andrew Bynum's injury (torn medial collateral ligament in his right knee). 

Yes, Oden is very brittle -- he has a very common incident that usually doesn't cause major injury and he's out for a month. It goes in line with his wrist injury that took a year to heal and microfracture surgery despite having little wear and tear on his body. Scouts were concerned about Oden being brittle and he's done nothing to dispute the Mr. Glass reputation. Evidently, Oden's body is even older than his face.


----------



## bootstrenf

Najee said:


> Evidently, Oden's body is even older than his face.



lmao.....:lol:


----------



## Cap

Najee said:


> Evidently, Oden's body is even older than his face.


Bahaha, awesome. I'm using that.


----------



## rocketeer

Najee said:


> Just admit you're wrong. The story originally reported Greg Oden could miss one week -- he ended up missing one month. You're actually trying to argue Oden could have played during the All-Star weekend rookies vs. sophs game, which is a moot point because he missed that game AND THE MONTH AFTER THAT.


of course, i wasn't wrong. the reports said day to day, he said he wouldn't miss any time. i'm not saying he could have played in the rookie sophomore game, greg oden said that he could have played then.



> How did Oden develop the bone chips? BANGING INTO COREY MAGGETTE'S KNEE! Do you realize how silly your argument is? Not to mention it's a straw man argument, trying to draw a comparison to Andrew Bynum's injury (torn medial collateral ligament in his right knee).
> 
> Yes, Oden is very brittle -- he has a very common incident that usually doesn't cause major injury and he's out for a month. It goes in line with his wrist injury that took a year to heal and microfracture surgery despite having little wear and tear on his body. Scouts were concerned about Oden being brittle and he's done nothing to dispute the Mr. Glass reputation. Evidently, Oden's body is even older than his face.


players bump knees all the time. it also is not an uncommon occurrence for players to fall into each other. bumping knees caused the bone chip, so that makes oden brittle but having a player fall into his knee does not make andrew bynum brittle. interesting how that works.


----------



## bootstrenf

rocketeer said:


> players bump knees all the time. it also is not an uncommon occurrence for players to fall into each other. bumping knees caused the bone chip, so that makes oden brittle but having a player fall into his knee does not make andrew bynum brittle. interesting how that works.


players bump knees together all the time....however, most players do not suffer from bone chips from bumping knees.....the fact that oden suffered such a serious injury from a simple knee bump is further evidence of his frailty.....knee knocks are painful, but most other players take a few minutes on the bench, and then they are back in the game.....or if gets bruised deeply, then they might take a game or two, but oden's knee chipped.....doesn't that say something about his durability???

oden is very lucky that he is on the blazers rather than the clippers.....jason powell is the worst trainer in the league and he would've amputated oden's leg by now....


you can't really compare bynum's injury to oden's injury.....bynum hyperextended his knee, and damaged ligaments is not uncommon for a player when there is a hyperextension of a joint......however, oden chipped his knee from bumping knees, and other players usually don't chip their knees from a knee knock......huge difference, isn't it???


----------



## rocketeer

bootstrenf said:


> players bump knees together all the time....however, most players do not suffer from bone chips from bumping knees.....the fact that oden suffered such a serious injury from a simple knee bump is further evidence of his frailty.....knee knocks are painful, but most other players take a few minutes on the bench, and then they are back in the game.....or if gets bruised deeply, then they might take a game or two, but oden's knee chipped.....doesn't that say something about his durability???


not really. if oden hadn't chipped his knee and missed a month just from banging knees with no further injury, then i could see a big problem.



> you can't really compare bynum's injury to oden's injury.....bynum hyperextended his knee, and damaged ligaments is not uncommon for a player when there is a hyperextension of a joint......however, oden chipped his knee from bumping knees, and other players usually don't chip their knees from a knee knock......huge difference, isn't it???


kobe fell into bynum. that happens in basketball. it's a fairly common occurrence just like banging knees. usually players don't miss months of time because another player falls into them.


----------



## bootstrenf

rocketeer said:


> kobe fell into bynum. that happens in basketball. it's a fairly common occurrence just like banging knees. usually players don't miss months of time because another player falls into them.


are you being obtuse on purpose??? i really can't tell.....


kobe falling into bynum is not the issue here.....the issue is that kobe fell into bynum's knee and hyperextended it.....this hyperextension caused ligament damage.....when players hyperextend a joint, oftentimes, it causes serious damage to the joint that require extended periods of healing before they can return to the court.....these types of injuries are not exclusive to basketball....see tom brady, willis mcgahee, etc.....this type of injury is not exclusive to bynum, when surrounded by the same mitigating circumstances......which happens to be joint hyperextension...


however, how many other players suffer bone chips from banging knees????


----------



## Luke

I don't understand why half of this thread is about Oden. This is a thread for ROY, not discussing the injuries of a player that may get on the All-Rookie Second Team.


----------



## rocketeer

bootstrenf said:


> are you being obtuse on purpose??? i really can't tell.....
> 
> kobe falling into bynum is not the issue here.....the issue is that kobe fell into bynum's knee and hyperextended it.....this hyperextension caused ligament damage.....when players hyperextend a joint, oftentimes, it causes serious damage to the joint that require extended periods of healing before they can return to the court.....these types of injuries are not exclusive to basketball....see tom brady, willis mcgahee, etc.....this type of injury is not exclusive to bynum, when surrounded by the same mitigating circumstances......which happens to be joint hyperextension...
> 
> however, how many other players suffer bone chips from banging knees????


i'm saying that both banging knees and players falling into each others legs are things that happen during the course of basketball games. to say that because banging knees caused an injury that forced oden to miss time, that shows something is wrong with oden is stupid unless you are willing to say the same about other similar circumstances that happen. at least be consistent.


----------



## Najee

rocketeer said:


> i'm saying that both banging knees and players falling into each others legs are things that happen during the course of basketball games. to say that because banging knees caused an injury that forced oden to miss time, that shows something is wrong with oden is stupid unless you are willing to say the same about other similar circumstances that happen. at least be consistent.


Players bang knees in basketball, but the typical result ranges from a player missing a few minutes to a sprain that causes a player to miss a game or two. In the 30 years I've watched and played basketball, I've never seen or heard of a player missing a month from banging into another player's knee. The fact that Greg Oden actually cracked his knee in such an incident gives credence to the "Mr. Glass" reputation.


----------



## Basel

You guys should create a separate thread for all this Oden "injury prone or not" talk.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Cap said:


> ^ It could be a weight issue too, that would make sense. Seems like a lot of knick-knack injuries, very unfortunate for Blazer fans that after 2 years of investment he hasn't made any/much progress.


Yeah, I think his bulking up has probably hurt him. I didn't understand why Portland just let him beef up like that. His knee was obviously under strain when he was playing at 260, adding another 30-40lbs has clearly not helped matters any.


----------



## bootstrenf

rocketeer said:


> i'm saying that both banging knees and players falling into each others legs are things that happen during the course of basketball games. to say that because banging knees caused an injury that forced oden to miss time, that shows something is wrong with oden is stupid unless you are willing to say the same about other similar circumstances that happen. at least be consistent.


i was going to respond, but najee summed it up perfectly...



Najee said:


> Players bang knees in basketball, but the typical result ranges from player missing a few minutes to a sprain that causes a player to miss a game or two. In the 30 years I've watched and played basketball, I've never seen or heard of a player missing a month from banging into another player's knee. The fact that Greg Oden actually cracked his knee in such an incident gives credence to the "Mr. Glass" reputation.


----------



## rocketeer

bootstrenf said:


> i was going to respond, but najee summed it up perfectly...


the only thing najee has summed up perfectly is that for some reason he has something against greg oden.


----------



## bootstrenf

rocketeer said:


> the only thing najee has summed up perfectly is that for some reason he has something against greg oden.


he very well might have something against oden, but that doesn't necessarily make him wrong regarding this specific issue....


i have nothing against oden, but everything najee said about the nature of oden's injury regarding his knee bump has been true....


----------



## Najee

rocketeer said:


> the only thing najee has summed up perfectly is that for some reason he has something against greg oden.


I have something against people who are ridiculously obtuse and so intent on being right, even if they would rather look idiotic than admit they are wrong. You have done a very good job of that.

I'll create a new thread about Greg Oden's health and other issues.


----------



## Dornado

Najee said:


> I have something against people who are ridiculously obtuse and so intent on being right, even if they would rather look idiotic than admit they are wrong. You have done a very good job of that.
> 
> I'll create a new thread about Greg Oden's health and other issues.


at least you didn't resort to insults...


----------



## Idunkonyou

Weird how Lee isn't in this discussion.


----------



## GNG

Idunkonyou said:


> Weird how Lee isn't in this discussion.


In what discussion? Rookie of the Year?


----------



## Ras

Cinco de Mayo said:


> In what discussion? Rookie of the Year?


I honestly haven't seen him much, but he hasn't made half the noise of any of the other rookies, so I don't see how he warrants being in it.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Are you insane? Haven't you been listening to the Magic fans? He's already one of the top shooting guards in the NBA!!! </orlangasm>


----------



## Blue

^Lee has been a BEAST since mid-January. Quit hatin.


----------



## Ras

Blue Magic said:


> ^Lee has been a BEAST since mid-January. Quit hatin.


But you have to realize he doesn't really stand up to the other top rookies. Even since mid-January, he's only gotten above 15 points 6 times (with a high of only 22), he's only gotten more then 4 rebounds 4 times (with a high of 6) and he's only gotten above 2 assists 4 times (with a high of 4). All this in 33 games. In fact, he's had more games with 0 assists the he has had games with 3 assists or more. He's had 14 games in single digit scoring out of those 33 games too. For all of February (his best statistical month) he's averaging 10.8 ppg/2.1 rpg/1.6 apg along with a steal.

Now I know numbers don't tell the whole story, but nothing about any of that says rookie of the year. Derrick Rose for example is averaging 16.4 ppg/4.6 rpg/5.9 apg for March, and he's actually had less single digit scoring games all year then Lee has in the past 33 games. I know it's partly due to situation because he's not given the keys to the ship, but that's besides the point. He's not producing as much as the other top rookies. That also goes without mentioning that Rose has shown to be a leader and shown he can really produce in the clutch.


----------



## GNG

Blue Magic said:


> ^Lee has been a BEAST since mid-January. Quit hatin.


No one's hating. He averages 8 ppg. 

He's shown very nice flashes on a team that will likely go far in the playoffs this season. I liked him a lot during his draft workouts, and I have no doubt he'll go on to have a solid career. No one should be talking about him in the ROY discussion though.


----------



## The Krakken

Najee said:


> I have something against people who are ridiculously obtuse and so intent on being right, even if they would rather look idiotic than admit they are wrong. You have done a very good job of that.


You have a few other people in this thread to knock down a peg or two then.....


----------



## Idunkonyou

Put Lee on the Grizz and he is averaging nearly 20 points a game. He has averaged nearly 11 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds, 1 steal per game shooting 50% FG and over 40% 3P as a starter for the Magic and as the 5th option most nights. The only reason his overall stats aren't that good is because he hardly even played his first 2 months of the season.


----------



## Blue

Ras said:


> But you have to realize he doesn't really stand up to the other top rookies. Even since mid-January, he's only gotten above 15 points 6 times (with a high of only 22), he's only gotten more then 4 rebounds 4 times (with a high of 6) and he's only gotten above 2 assists 4 times (with a high of 4). All this in 33 games. In fact, he's had more games with 0 assists the he has had games with 3 assists or more. He's had 14 games in single digit scoring out of those 33 games too. For all of February (his best statistical month) he's averaging 10.8 ppg/2.1 rpg/1.6 apg along with a steal.
> 
> Now I know numbers don't tell the whole story, but nothing about any of that says rookie of the year. Derrick Rose for example is averaging 16.4 ppg/4.6 rpg/5.9 apg for March, and he's actually had less single digit scoring games all year then Lee has in the past 33 games. I know it's partly due to situation because he's not given the keys to the ship, but that's besides the point. He's not producing as much as the other top rookies. That also goes without mentioning that Rose has shown to be a leader and shown he can really produce in the clutch.


But look @ his %'s tho... The only rookie guard with a better FG% is Anthony Morrow. The only rookie guard's with a better 3pt% is Anthony Morrow and DJ Augustin. But, unlike those two guys Lee has made a profound impact on the defensive end as well. There are only 4 rookie guards with more spg than Lee's 1.03(Gordon,Mayo,Westbrook, & Chalmers), and they all have @ least played 32+ mpg as compared Lee's 24 mpg. Only Chalmers avgs more SP48. Given similar minutes and FGA to them, I dont see how Lee's game is that far off from some of these other rookies.... I'm not sayin he's Rookie of the Year tho. That's DRose.


----------



## Ras

Idunkonyou said:


> Put Lee on the Grizz and he is averaging nearly 20 points a game. He has averaged nearly 11 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds, 1 steal per game shooting 50% FG and over 40% 3P as a starter for the Magic and as the 5th option most nights. The only reason his overall stats aren't that good is because he hardly even played his first 2 months of the season.


But that's besides the point. He hasn't put up 20 ppg, and you're not going to win an award on speculation. He's been a great role-player, but he hasn't produced like someone like Derrick Rose.


----------



## Ras

Blue Magic said:


> But look @ his %'s tho... The only rookie guard with a better FG% is Anthony Morrow. The only rookie guard's with a better 3pt% is Anthony Morrow and DJ Augustin. But, unlike those two guys Lee has made a profound impact on the defensive end as well. There are only 4 rookie guards with more spg than Lee's 1.03(Gordon,Mayo,Westbrook, & Chalmers), and they all have @ least played 32+ mpg as compared Lee's 24 mpg. Only Chalmers avgs more SP48. Given similar minutes and FGA to them, I dont see how Lee's game is that far off from some of these other rookies....


His %s and steals are good yes, but does that push aside the fact the he's never averaged more then 10 ppg for a month, or 3 rebounds, or an assist? No. Steals and percentages aren't going to get you the award. All the other top rookies have produced more.

And again, you're not going to win the award on speculation. If you believe he'd do better with more minutes and bigger role thats fine, and you're probably right, but he hasn't, so it's not going to happen. You don't win awards on "ifs."


----------



## GNG

Idunkonyou said:


> Put Lee on the Grizz and he is averaging nearly 20 points a game. He has averaged nearly 11 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds, 1 steal per game shooting 50% FG and over 40% 3P as a starter for the Magic and as the 5th option most nights. The only reason his overall stats aren't that good is because he hardly even played his first 2 months of the season.


Tough titty. This isn't the Hypothetical Rookie of the Year Award.

People didn't give Manu Ginobili the ROY Award when he was putting up eight points on the 60-win Spurs. He didn't even get a first-place vote. Amare Stoudemire got the award. Only a complete idiot would buy into what you're suggesting.


----------



## Blue

No one said Lee deserves WIN the award. But his name was barely even mentioned in this thread up until the other day, and that was when I brought his name up.... Golly, if Oden can take up half of this damn thread, the least Lee can do is get a little bit of a mention... No one is saying Lee should be the frontrunner, but @ the same time, he isn't really having any worse of year than any of these guys. He makes big plays, while rarley making mistakes. He's been of the most efficient rookies this year. That's all we're saying. No one's trying to tout him as the ROY. :chill:


----------



## E.H. Munro

Idunkonyou said:


> Put Lee on the Grizz and he is averaging nearly 20 points a game.


No he wouldn't. No Dwight Howard anchoring a post defender and forcing a guard to play denial, and without the Magic's plethora of three point shooters to space the floor, means no 20 p/g unless he's posting a 'Toine triple dub (20 pts, 30 FGA, 10 TOs).


----------



## Blue

^He could avg 15ppg anywhere imo, if he was given 33+ mpg...


----------



## E.H. Munro

As a primary scoring option? If the Grizz let him fire up 20+ shots a night he could certainly manage 15 a night.


----------



## croco

Blue Magic said:


> But look @ his %'s tho... The only rookie guard with a better FG% is Anthony Morrow. The only rookie guard's with a better 3pt% is Anthony Morrow and DJ Augustin. But, unlike those two guys Lee has made a profound impact on the defensive end as well. There are only 4 rookie guards with more spg than Lee's 1.03(Gordon,Mayo,Westbrook, & Chalmers), and they all have @ least played 32+ mpg as compared Lee's 24 mpg. Only Chalmers avgs more SP48. Given similar minutes and FGA to them, I dont see how Lee's game is that far off from some of these other rookies.... I'm not sayin he's Rookie of the Year tho. That's DRose.


1.03 steals ? Who cares if a player has 0.78 steals in 18 minutes of action or 1.48 steals in 22 minutes, steals are (almost) irrelevant when comparing players. 

Lee is a solid role player who will hit the open three, play steady defense and not turn the ball over, but let's not get ahead of ourselves here. He is a prime example for someone who can play on any team and his stats would look pretty much the same, he benefits from playing alongside three all-star caliber players, he can't create for himself which is why his usage rate is so low. If he was on a mediocre team like, say, Milwaukee, nobody would take notice. If he was on a team where he would be getting more shots, his efficiency would suffer because teams would actually focus on him more, something that is clearly not the case in Orlando. 

He fits the system and knows how to play, that's about it. There is no stardom in his future which is not bad a thing at all, he will have a nice career as a role player. Let's please stop with the crazy comparisons to someone like Rose, Mayo or Gordon.


----------



## Blue

^Then why was DWade guarding him personally last night? And then the moment he fouled out in the 4th qtr(due to numerous fantom calls while guarding Wade), instead of guarding Redick Wade started guarding Skip? 

It's not like teams are just letting him roam and playing bums on him.... He's been guarded by like of Kobe & Wade, and yet still has produced the same..

I find it hard to see how a guy like Gordon would be doing eons better in the same position as Lee, where as Lee would flat out fail miserably if given Gordon's role...


----------



## E.H. Munro

Who was Wade going to defend, Turkeyglue? The Heat backcourt are 6'1" and 6'3". So they're pretty much limited to guarding Orlando's guards given the height of the front line. Did Boston waster Pierce on Lee?


----------



## Blue

ehmunro said:


> As a primary scoring option? If the Grizz let him fire up 20+ shots a night he could certainly manage 15 a night.


Um, Lee's not a chucker like boy OJ. He's heard of this thing we like to call 'shot selection'.  With 20attempts a game and handfull of 40+min games like all the other rookies get, and I think he could have a 30+ pt game or two himself.


----------



## croco

Blue Magic said:


> ^Then why was DWade guarding him personally last night? And then the moment he fouled out in the 4th qtr(due to numerous fantom calls while guarding Wade), instead of guarding Redick Wade started guarding Skip?
> 
> It's not like teams are just letting him roam and playing bums on him.... He's been guarded by like of Kobe & Wade, and yet still has produced the same..


It's quite common that shooting guards guard shooting guards, especially when a team presents as many mismatches like Orlando does. Who is he supposed to guard at 6'4 ? Surely not Turkoglu or Lewis. Coaches also want their star players to conserve energy on the defensive end at times, easier to do when you can guard a rather one-dimensional player like Lee.


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## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> Um, Lee's not a chucker like boy OJ. He's heard of this thing we like to call 'shot selection'.


ummm, Lee is the fifth scoring option on a team with the best young big man in the NBA, and two shooters in front of him. It has nothing to do with "shot selection" and everything to do with the fact that he gets to sit in the corner and shoot wide open treys. If he were to try asserting himself he'd land on the bench in a hurry. Put Eric Gordon in that role and he might break the NBA record for 3FG%. Put Lee in Memphis and tell him that he has to score, and he's going to collapse under tight coverage.


----------



## Blue

ehmunro said:


> ummm, Lee is the fifth scoring option on a team with the best young big man in the NBA, and two shooters in front of him. It has nothing to do with "shot selection" and everything to do with the fact that he gets to sit in the corner and shoot wide open treys. If he were to try asserting himself he'd land on the bench in a hurry. Put Eric Gordon in that role and he might break the NBA record for 3FG%. Put Lee in Memphis and tell him that he has to score, and he's going to collapse under tight coverage.


Um, Lee actually sat the bench early because he wasn't assertive enough. They always talk about how SVG wishes he was more assertive because of his skill and efficiency.... His mid-range/pull-up game has potential to be deadly. The guy has skilzz.


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## GNG

Blue Magic said:


> Um, Lee's not a chucker like boy OJ. He's heard of this thing we like to call 'shot selection'.  With 20attempts a game and handfull of 40+min games like all the other rookies get, and I think he could have a 30+ pt game or two himself.


Mayo's not a chucker. Unless 15.5 shots per game playing 37.7 minutes shooting 44 percent (38 percent from three) is chucking now.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> Um, Lee actually sat the bench early because he wasn't assertive enough. They always talk about how SVG wishes he was more assertive because of his skill and efficiency.... His mid-range/pull-up game has potential to be deadly. The guy has skilzz.


The minute that Dwight Howard was limited to 8 shots because Courtney began shooting it every time he got it Lee would be buried at the end of the bench. Ron Jeremy wanted Lee to be more assertive in the same way that Rivers wanted Rondo to be more assertive, i.e. shoot the wide open jumpers when he had them so that defenders couldn't simply slough off him (and cut off passing angles into Howard in Orlando's case).



Cinco de Mayo said:


> Mayo's not a chucker.


It's clear that you just don't comprehend the greatness of Courtney Lee. He's already the best shooting guard of this class and is destined to be one of the greatest of all time.


----------



## bootstrenf

Blue Magic said:


> No one said Lee deserves WIN the award. *But his name was barely even mentioned in this thread up until the other day, and that was when I brought his name up*.... Golly, if Oden can take up half of this damn thread, the least Lee can do is get a little bit of a mention... No one is saying Lee should be the frontrunner, but @ the same time, he isn't really having any worse of year than any of these guys. He makes big plays, while rarley making mistakes. He's been of the most efficient rookies this year. That's all we're saying. No one's trying to tout him as the ROY. :chill:



the reason no one else besides you mentioned him, is because no one else thought that he was one of the top rookies of this class....


----------



## Blue

Cinco de Mayo said:


> Mayo's not a chucker. Unless 15.5 shots per game playing 37.7 minutes shooting 44 percent (38 percent from three) is chucking now.


Your right. But if Lee was in Memphis he would almost certainly need to chuck 25 attempts a night to barely avg 15 ppg... After all, in Orlando the opposition just neglects him and willingly gives a 40+% 3pt shooter wide open looks as much as possible.


> It's quite common that shooting guards guard shooting guards, especially when a team presents as many mismatches like Orlando does. Who is he supposed to guard at 6'4 ? Surely not Turkoglu or Lewis. Coaches also want their star players to conserve energy on the defensive end at times, easier to do when you can guard a rather one-dimensional player like Lee.


I understand, but teams aren't just sagging off of him like they would a Rondo... Unlike ppl on here, opponents respect Lee's game. The only team I've ever seen trying to sag off him and dare him to shoot like that is when we play Philly... I hope we play them in the playoffs, cause if they still try that the series will be over quickly.



ehmunro said:


> The minute that Dwight Howard was limited to 8 shots because Courtney began shooting it every time he got it Lee would be buried at the end of the bench. Ron Jeremy wanted Lee to be more assertive in the same way that Rivers wanted Rondo to be more assertive, i.e. shoot the wide open jumpers when he had them so that defenders couldn't simply slough off him (and cut off passing angles into Howard in Orlando's case).


Except for the fact that, Lee is actually a good shooter, so him being assertive offensively and shooting more is productive to the team and gives us a better chance to win than him not be. Teams aren't just, not closing out on him or neglecting him. I think most opponents would be ok with Rondo, a career 26% 3pt shooter, trying to beat them from 3.

Lee gets the same looks that Shard, Hedo, Rafer, and evrybody else on the team gets due to good ball movement and, Dwight. Sure. Ill say that outside of Rashard tho, I think I would rather have Lee shooting than anyone else on the team... And our team has alot of good shooters... 



> It's clear that you just don't comprehend the greatness of Courtney Lee. He's already the best shooting guard of this class and is destined to be one of the greatest of all time.


Good one.


----------



## Blue

bootstrenf said:


> the reason no one else besides you mentioned him, is because no one else thought that he was one of the top rookies of this class....


I didnt even bring his name up like that, though... We were talking about Gordon vs. Rose, and I was saying how you can find people like Gordon who bring that same type of basic skillset and production easier than you can a guy producing like D. Rose has been. I used Lee as an example, considering he's a rookie whose shooting pretty damn efficiently, and his #'s can be similar to Gordon's. I was mainly comparing his shooting to Gordon's, saying that you can always find efficient shooters, but it's alot harder to find great PG's. 

Someone wants to get offended and act like no one can touch Gordon and saying how what he brings is soo rare. I just dont see it. Gordon may be a little better than Lee, but it's not to the point where it's 'omfg, how can you mention these two ppl in the same sentence together!', type of seperation. Gordon is a good player and I like him, let's just be real.


----------



## GNG

Blue Magic said:


> Your right.


Yes, I am right. The rest of the stuff is between you and other people.


----------



## Ras

I can't really get into the debate because I haven't seen him play much, but being a good shooter doesn't automatically make you a good offensive player on your own; it just means you can hit open shots. Of course wouldn't sag off of a good shooter, but they wouldn't want him taking the ball on his own and trying to create for himself, because I've heard that's not really a strength of his. I think that's what other people are saying. So if he was put in Memphis where defenses focused on him and he had to create his own looks, he's struggle to find them.

Though I am working off of secondary information here.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Ras said:


> I can't really get into the debate because I haven't seen him play much, but being a good shooter doesn't automatically make you a good offensive player on your own; it just means you can hit open shots. Of course wouldn't sag off of a good shooter, but they wouldn't want him taking the ball on his own and trying to create for himself, because I've heard that's not really a strength of his. I think that's what other people are saying. So if he was put in Memphis where defenses focused on him and he had to create his own looks, he's struggle to find them.


Pretty much, he thrives because he's playing with Dwight Howard and opposing defenses are entirely focused on preventing Howard from getting the ball, and trying to cover 'Shard & Turkeyglue (and when he was still there, 'Meer). So he thrives as a fourth option, Shane Battier is an efficient shooter and scorer because he's an offensive afterthought. But only a crazy person would claim that he'd still score efficiently if he were a team's primary scorer. If you were to type "Shane Battier isn't a chucker, buddy, he has this thing called 'shot selection' that makes him efficient," you'd be laughed off the board. And rightfully so. 

There's really zero chance that he would _outperform_ a much, much better player (OJ Mayo) if he was in Memphis (which is what that other Magic fan claimed). Don't tell the Magic fans, though, they'll be outraged at the suggestion. Don't worry, though, in five years time they'll outgrow this lunacy.


----------



## Dre

I'll never understand why people base (potential) production on proportionate scales instead of actually analyzing the entire situation.


----------



## Prolific Scorer

Courtney Lee is extremely streaky and has a semi-unorthodox release on his shot. He's not that great of a ballhandler (yet) either. The biggest thing he has going for him is he's lightning quick , has excellent hops, and is a tenacious defender.

I also like his attitude, and he seems to have his head on his shoulders pretty straight. I think he's going to be a player... All-Star calibre I don't know (he certainly has alot of potential with that athleticism), but he is certainly a player.


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## E.H. Munro

Prolific Scorer said:


> Courtney Lee is extremely streaky and has a unorthodox release on his shot. He's not that great of a ballhandler (yet) either. The biggest thing he has going for him is he's lightning quick , has excellent hops, and is a tenacious defender.
> 
> I also like his attitude, and he seems to have his head on his shoulders pretty straight. I think he's going to be a player... All-Star calibre I don't know (he certainly has alot of potential with that athleticism), but he is certainly a player.


Now that's a reasonable analysis. It's hard to believe that you're a Magic fan. :bsmile:

Seriously, I like Lee. He's a great roleplayer, but the fans here pretending that he's better than Egordo or Mayo need one of these...


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## Blue

Who said he's better than EGo or Mayo? You keep insinuinting **** that I dont even say, and then you say i'm somehow retarded or delusional for saying it...:thinking2: All I said is that they are similar players and they are both good in similar area's of the game. And I said that you can find another Eric Gordo easier than you can find another D. Rose. Apparently Lee and Gordon's game have absolutely nothing in common though... All Lee does is stand in a corner krazy.

Now all of a sudden i'm claiming Lee to be better than OJ Mayo and i think he is the rookie of year? Wow, this is news to me ehmunroe... When did I say all of this?? I mean damn, you try to give a guy some props and everyone wants to get all defensive... I'm flustered





ehmunro said:


> Now that's a reasonable analysis. It's hard to believe that you're a Magic fan. :bsmile:
> 
> Seriously, I like Lee. He's a great roleplayer, but the fans here pretending that he's better than Egordo or Mayo need one of these...


No, you were saying that Lee is a one-dimensional chucker who has like 1 spot on the court that he can shoot from, but couldn't do anything else... You were saying that he cant shoot off the dribble, when his mid-range pull up is one of his go-to moves... You were saying that just because he gets stls doesn't make him a good defender. You've just been off base on some of your accounts on him... But apparently to say that he isn't one dimensional and that his game is somewhat similar to another player, is down right lunacy! I MUST be delusional... Courtney Lee's a bum.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> Who said he's better than EGo or Mayo? You keep insinuinting **** that I dont even say, and then you say i'm somehow retarded or delusional for saying it...:thinking2: All I said is that they are similar players and they are both good in similar area's of the game. And I said that you can find another Eric Gordo easier than you can find another D. Rose. Apparently Lee and Gordon's game have absolutely nothing in common though... All Lee does is stand in a corner krazy.


You said that Lee was as good as Gordon, and when I laughed at the person that called him better than Mayo rushed to disparage Mayo, as if the thought that OJ Mayo was _as good as_ Courtney Lee was somehow laughable. Courtney Lee, for the 1,973,187th time, _isn't_ a primary scoring option, and won't ever be a primary scoring option. Because, despite your fantasies, he just isn't that good. Good roleplayer? Yes. Can he do what Mayo does? Not a ****ing chance. Under that sort of defensive pressure he'd be lucky to be putting up the numbers he does now.



Blue Magic said:


> Now all of a sudden i'm claiming Lee to be better than OJ Mayo and i think he is the rookie of year? Wow, this is news to me ehmunroe... When did I say all of this?? I mean damn, you try to give a guy some props and everyone wants to get all defensive... I'm flustered


You're also forgetting your own words. Let's have a look at your response to my laughing at the Magic fan that claimed the following, ...



Idunkonyou said:


> Put Lee on the Grizz and he is averaging nearly 20 points a game. He has averaged nearly 11 points, 2 assists, 2 rebounds, 1 steal per game shooting 50% FG and over 40% 3P as a starter for the Magic and as the 5th option most nights. The only reason his overall stats aren't that good is because he hardly even played his first 2 months of the season.


... shall we?



Blue Magic said:


> Um, Lee's not a chucker like boy OJ. He's heard of this thing we like to call 'shot selection'.


Yeah, so maybe you're claiming that Courtney Lee would thrive as Memphis' primary scorer by being their fourth or fifth option? It's not terribly realistic. "Shot selection" is something that roleplayers get by virtue of being offensive afterthoughts. He has "shot selection" in the exact same way that Eddie House has "shot selection". It's easy to have "shot selection" when you're Eddie House, Courtney Lee, Louis Williams, Mo Evans, Shane Battier, Daniel Gibson, or Derek Fisher. It's not so easy to have "shot selection" when you're Kobe, LeBron, Dwyane, or even OJ.



Blue Magic said:


> No, you were saying that Lee is a one-dimensional chucker who has like 1 spot on the court that he can shoot from, but couldn't do anything else... You were saying that he cant shoot off the dribble, when his mid-range pull up is one of his go-to moves... You were saying that just because he gets stls doesn't make him a good defender. You've just been off base on some of your accounts on him... But apparently to say that he isn't one dimensional and that his game is somewhat similar to another player, is down right lunacy! I MUST be delusional... Courtney Lee's a bum.


I think what everyone's saying, and what's been outraging you, is that Courtney Lee is a roleplayer. For whatever reason you find the claim to be offensive, and you've been angrily responding to people that laugh at your comparisons of Lee to better players, and pretending that we're delusional for understanding that Lee thrives because he plays on a team where he's the fourth option, the fifth option when that team is healthy. It's easy to thrive in that role. If a player can't hit shots when he's an offensive afterthought, odds are he doesn't belong in the NBA (not unless he provides a vital skill, like post defense). You're like those Celtic fans that used to claim (in the bad old days when they sucked) that Kendrick Perkins' FG% was proof that he could be a 20/10 player if only the team ran plays for him. He shoots the rock at such a high percentage because he's the last offensive option. That's why he's so efficient. If he were _ever_ on a team in such dire straits that he was their best offensive player, well, let's just say that that sort of team would make a run at all time futility mark set by the 1973 Sixers. Similarly, if Courtney Lee were playing for a team where he was its best offensive player, he wouldn't be shooting the ball nearly so well. And he would certainly not be performing even as well as OJ Mayo, much less outdoing him because of his mystical "shot selection".


----------



## GNG

Blue Magic said:


> Now all of a sudden i'm claiming Lee to be better than OJ Mayo


Maybe not directly, but you ridiculed Mayo's shot selection and pretty much dismissed him as a chucker.

I mean, what do you want to call that?


----------



## Blue

ehmunro said:


> You said that Lee was as good as Gordon, and when I laughed at the person that called him better than Mayo rushed to disparage Mayo, as if the thought that OJ Mayo was _as good as_ Courtney Lee was somehow laughable. Courtney Lee, for the 1,973,187th time, _isn't_ a primary scoring option, and won't ever be a primary scoring option. Because, despite your fantasies, he just isn't that good. Good roleplayer? Yes. Can he do what Mayo does? Not a ****ing chance. Under that sort of defensive pressure he'd be lucky to be putting up the numbers he does now.


Are you serious? I specifically said he is just as good of a *SHOOTER* as Gordon, and that's as far as I went. What part about that do you not understand? I also said that the way that they play is pretty comparable, but I never said that one was better than the other on the whole.... All of that 'he said Lee was better' bull-**** was started by you yourself and you keep saying it. I was just saying that their games are similar, I never even gave an opinion on who I thought was better, so how can you even say what my opinion on it is?



> You're also forgetting your own words. Let's have a look at your response to my laughing at the Magic fan that claimed the following, ...


Hell, Kobe Bryant is a chucker but he still gets the job done. Mayo has chucking tendencies, but I would still take him over Lee pretty easily. I was just saying that in jest, but that doesn't mean I think Lee is *better* than Mayo.... Please, stop telling me what I think cause you really have no idea. 

Mayo is a better athlete and like i've already stated, I think Lee's game is more similar to EGo. I still dont see what's soo awful about me saying that. That's not a knock on Gordon. He may be a little better than Lee, but he's not blowing him away in any category like you would think from the reaction & hate that Lee has gotten on here. 



> ... shall we?


Yeah, because someone said Lee would absolutely fold and crumble if he was given 20+ shots a night and 40+ mins on a regular basis.... That's what triggered these comments. It's not like anyone has come out and said Lee is better than Mayo or Rose or Gordon and is trying to rub it in peoples face. It's actually been quite the opposite. We were just saying that he's been playing well enough to have his name mentioned with some of the big boys. That doesnt mean that any of us think he should win ROY outright, and all of the other players pale in comparison. That sounds like some **** that you would say.

All you guys have been saying is how Lee would absolutely fail if he were a go-to guy... I said that Lee plays a similar style to Gordon, and all I heard about is how Lee couldn't do anything that Gordon does and how Gordon would take ****s all over him. I posted some #'s showing how they really do compare and I was a trifling fool for even mentioning the two in the same breath. I got nothing but love for EGo and he's nice, but he's not THAT nice, ehmunro. Apparently Lee only has one spot on the basketball court where he knows how to shoot and is inept everywhere else, but Gordon is the next Ray Allen.... What was I thinking.



> Yeah, so maybe you're claiming that Courtney Lee would thrive as Memphis' primary scorer by being their fourth or fifth option? It's not terribly realistic. "Shot selection" is something that roleplayers get by virtue of being offensive afterthoughts. He has "shot selection" in the exact same way that Eddie House has "shot selection". It's easy to have "shot selection" when you're Eddie House, Courtney Lee, Louis Williams, Mo Evans, Shane Battier, Daniel Gibson, or Derek Fisher. It's not so easy to have "shot selection" when you're Kobe, LeBron, Dwyane, or even OJ.


I would compare Lee's shot selection to the way Rip Hamilton has good shot selection. He's gonna make the right plays. He doesn't always settle for 3's and he has a nice pull-up game to fall back on. He is a good finisher @ the rim and he is still getting better as his minutes increase. He knows when to make the extra pass. I was basing what I about Mayo more has past, but he still has chucking tendencies sometimes.... Like I said, he is a good scorer on a bad team soo it's not all bad. He's doing what he has to do. That doesn't mean that, 'omg, i must think that Lee the mvp and is better than Mayo'.. It just means that Lee's game isnt as one-diminsional as you claim and he could do some good things if he were given the oppurtunity, just like alot of other rookies have been. 



> I think what everyone's saying, and what's been outraging you, is that Courtney Lee is a roleplayer. For whatever reason you find the claim to be offensive, and you've been angrily responding to people that laugh at your comparisons of Lee to better players, and pretending that we're delusional for understanding that Lee thrives because he plays on a team where he's the fourth option, the fifth option when that team is healthy. It's easy to thrive in that role. If a player can't hit shots when he's an offensive afterthought, odds are he doesn't belong in the NBA (not unless he provides a vital skill, like post defense). You're like those Celtic fans that used to claim (in the bad old days when they sucked) that Kendrick Perkins' FG% was proof that he could be a 20/10 player if only the team ran plays for him. He shoots the rock at such a high percentage because he's the last offensive option. That's why he's so efficient. If he were _ever_ on a team in such dire straits that he was their best offensive player, well, let's just say that that sort of team would make a run at all time futility mark set by the 1973 Sixers. Similarly, if Courtney Lee were playing for a team where he was its best offensive player, he wouldn't be shooting the ball nearly so well. And he would certainly not be performing even as well as OJ Mayo, much less outdoing him because of his mystical "shot selection".


Like Eric Gordon is the Clippers #1 option every night? What do you call Zbo, BD, Al Thornton, etc..? I guess it's just EGo against the world and he's carrying his Clipps to high places. Damn, OJ Mayo reaaly has his Grizz in the playoff hunt putting up these #'s... Please man, both of those guys play for bottom feeders so they get feature more for development purposes. Lee has to pick & chose his spots, and he does it well. No one said Lee is outright better than Gordon or Mayo or Rose. No one said that Lee deserves to win the ROY. That's what YOU said and that's what you wish we said so that you could paint us all out to be delusional moron's.


----------



## Idunkonyou

Lee shouldn't win rookie of the year and I'm not really trying to say that. What I'm trying to say is the fact he is one of the best rookies of his class period. You put him on a bad team, he is putting up much better scoring stats. Obviously the majority in this thread knows nothing about Lee from the way they are talking down on him, but then again these are the same people claiming a 60 win Magic team has little to no chance at winning a title this year, LOL!

Ignorance is bliss I guess.


----------



## Ras

Idunkonyou said:


> Lee shouldn't win rookie of the year and I'm not really trying to say that. What I'm trying to say is the fact he is one of the best rookies of his class period. You put him on a bad team, he is putting up much better scoring stats. Obviously the majority in this thread knows nothing about Lee from the way they are talking down on him, but then again these are the same people claiming a 60 win Magic team has little to no chance at winning a title this year, LOL!
> 
> Ignorance is bliss I guess.


I think they were just saying he benefits from playing on the Magic because he doesn't have the ability to create for himself, which would limit his production if he were the "man." Other players, like OJ and Rose, have shown that ability and have somewhat shown in some capacity that they can be a leader of sorts. OJ, Rose and the like seemed destined to be more then role-players, and Lee seems to be more in line of a great role player. I think that's what others are saying.


----------



## Prolific Scorer

Ras said:


> I think they were just saying he benefits from playing on the Magic because he doesn't have the ability to create for himself, which would limit his production if he were the "man." Other players, like OJ and Rose, have shown that ability and have somewhat shown in some capacity that they can be a leader of sorts. OJ, Rose and the like seemed destined to be more then role-players, and Lee seems to be more in line of a great role player. I think that's what others are saying.


:thinking2:

But Lee _can_ create for himself..

I don't know why people are throwing the book at Lee (He won't make an A-S Team, he won't be this, he won't be that, etc...), he's still pretty rough around the edges, but he has stellar man defense and superstar athleticism.

Is this the same "analysis" as the other thread where you didn't even know if Brook Lopez was a Center or not? I mean c'mon! :whoknows:


----------



## Adam

Idunkonyou said:


> Lee shouldn't win rookie of the year and I'm not really trying to say that. What I'm trying to say is the fact he is one of the best rookies of his class period. You put him on a bad team, he is putting up much better scoring stats. Obviously the majority in this thread knows nothing about Lee from the way they are talking down on him, but then again these are the same people claiming a 60 win Magic team has little to no chance at winning a title this year, LOL!
> 
> Ignorance is bliss I guess.


I can name at least a dozen better rookies.


----------



## Ras

Prolific Scorer said:


> :thinking2:
> 
> But Lee _can_ create for himself..
> 
> I don't know why people are throwing the book at Lee (He won't make an A-S Team, he won't be this, he won't be that, etc...), he's still pretty rough around the edges, but he has stellar man defense and superstar athleticism.
> 
> Is this the same "analysis" as the other thread where you didn't even know if Brook Lopez was a Center or not? I mean c'mon! :whoknows:


I never claimed to be giving analysis, all I was trying to do was clarify the point (or what I assumed the point was) of some of the other members. I even said at the top I personally haven't seen him play much, so I can't really comment. Also, if I'm not mistaken, I asked whether or not he was a centre or forward, I don't see the harm in that. I never claimed to have seen everyone and know everything. Basketball took a backseat in my life a long time ago.


----------



## Prolific Scorer

Ras said:


> I never claimed to be giving analysis, all I was trying to do was clarify the point (or what I assumed the point was) of some of the other members. I even said at the top I personally haven't seen him play much, so I can't really comment. Also, if I'm not mistaken, I asked whether or not he was a centre or forward, I don't see the harm in that. I never claimed to have seen everyone and know everything. Basketball took a backseat in my life a long time ago.


If you haven't seen them play, then why make comments about their games that you obviously don't even know about?


----------



## Ras

Prolific Scorer said:


> If you haven't seen them play, then why make comments about their games that you obviously don't even know about?


Well I said I hadn't seem him play, and I said I couldn't get into the debate. Just read this post again....



> I can't really get into the debate because I haven't seen him play much, but being a good shooter doesn't automatically make you a good offensive player on your own; it just means you can hit open shots. Of course wouldn't sag off of a good shooter, but they wouldn't want him taking the ball on his own and trying to create for himself, because I've heard that's not really a strength of his. I think that's what other people are saying. So if he was put in Memphis where defenses focused on him and he had to create his own looks, he's struggle to find them.
> 
> Though I am working off of secondary information here.


I was just saying that if you can hit open shots, doesn't mean you can create for yourself. I never meant to imply that I personally thought he could or couldn't, but some people who were arguing didn't seem to be seeing each other's point, so I just thought it was worth saying. That's all.


----------



## Prolific Scorer

Ras said:


> I think they were just saying he benefits from playing on the Magic *because he doesn't have the ability to create for himself*, which would limit his production if he were the "man." Other players, like OJ and Rose, have shown that ability and have somewhat shown in some capacity that they can be a leader of sorts. OJ, Rose and the like seemed destined to be more then role-players, *and Lee seems to be more in line of a great role player*. I think that's what others are saying.


This is what i'm responding to. You're coming to your own conclusion on a player you haven't even seen play.

I mean, i'm not saying that anyone is wrong for having that opinion, I just find it funny that someone is forming an opinion on someone they haven't watched.


----------



## Ras

Prolific Scorer said:


> This is what i'm responding to. You're coming to your own conclusion on a player you haven't even seen play.
> 
> I mean, i'm not saying that anyone is wrong for having that opinion, I just find it funny that someone is forming an opinion on someone they haven't watched.


Geez man, do you not realize what I said in what you just quoted? You completely take it out of context when you bold a couple of the words. Again...



> I think they were just saying he benefits from playing on the Magic because he doesn't have the ability to create for himself...





> ...Lee seems to be more in line of a great role player. I think that's what others are saying.


I'm not saying he doesn't have the ability to create for himself, I said "I think _they're_ saying he benefits because he doesn't have the ability to create for himself." Even the second one, "Lee seems to be more in line of a great role player. I think that's what _others_ are saying." 

Perhaps I should have put an extra "they" in the first line, so it would be "I think _they_ were just saying he benefits from playing on the Magic because _they_ don't think he can create for himself," but I never meant to imply I think this or that because I haven't seen him play.


----------



## Prolific Scorer

Ras said:


> Geez man, do you not realize what I said in what you just quoted? You completely take it out of context when you bold a couple of the words. Again...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying he doesn't have the ability to create for himself, I said "I think _they're_ saying he benefits because he doesn't have the ability to create for himself." Even the second one, "Lee seems to be more in line of a great role player. I think that's what _others_ are saying."
> 
> Perhaps I should have put an extra "they" in the first line, so it would be "I think _they_ were just saying he benefits from playing on the Magic because _they_ don't think he can create for himself," but I never meant to imply I think this or that because I haven't seen him play.


Exactly. Don't get mad at me for what YOU wrote. 

"I think they were just saying he benefits from playing on the Magic.." That part is fine, but like you said I guess you forgot to add an extra they because the 2nd part "...because he can't create for himself" makes it look like that's what YOU think...& besides, that's not even the case because Lee _can_ create for himself.

Plus why are you even in the discussion or co-signing what someone else is saying on a player you HAVE NEVER SEEN play? It just makes you look retarded, especially when you come out and admit that it's true.



Get YOUR **** straight next time.


----------



## bootstrenf

Ras said:


> Geez man, do you not realize what I said in what you just quoted? You completely take it out of context when you bold a couple of the words. Again...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying he doesn't have the ability to create for himself, I said "I think _they're_ saying he benefits because he doesn't have the ability to create for himself." Even the second one, "Lee seems to be more in line of a great role player. I think that's what _others_ are saying."
> 
> Perhaps I should have put an extra "they" in the first line, so it would be "I think _they_ were just saying he benefits from playing on the Magic because _they_ don't think he can create for himself," but I never meant to imply I think this or that because I haven't seen him play.



hey ras, as far as i am concerned, there was no need to explain yourself a second and third time.....lol......

the majority of us understood your sentiments perfectly the first time.....


it was very clear that you were merely echoing the thoughts of other posters regarding lee, and that your post was not based on your personal observations or opinioins......


i have no clue why anyone would have such difficulty in understanding such a simple concept.....lol.....


----------



## Prolific Scorer

bootstrenf said:


> hey ras, as far as i am concerned, there was no need to explain yourself a second and third time.....lol......
> 
> the majority of us understood your sentiments perfectly the first time.....
> 
> 
> it was very clear that you were merely echoing the thoughts of other posters regarding lee, and that your post was not based on your personal observations or opinioins......
> 
> 
> i have no clue why anyone would have such difficulty in understanding such a simple concept.....lol.....



The majority of us? Who is "us"? You and your imaginary friends? 

How could he echo the sentiments on a player he hasn't ever seen play? Does that make any sense?


----------



## bootstrenf

Prolific Scorer said:


> The majority of us? Who is "us"? You and your imaginary friends?
> 
> How could he echo the sentiments on a player he hasn't ever seen play? Does that make any sense?


lmao......


okay.....:lol:


----------



## Blue

We know that he was just re-iterating what was said, but we already knew what was being said. We're not retarded. It's just the fact that the **** that was said initially and then was later being 're-iterated' was in some ways, inaccurate, in our opinions. We didnt need him to break down what they were saying like we were incompetent idiots. We just disagreed with some of their evaluations of him and, at first, it sounded like he was agreeing with them(after admittedly not even watching the guy play). That's what was confusing all of us. Of course, now we know that that wasn't the case...


----------



## E.H. Munro

Prolific Scorer said:


> The majority of us? Who is "us"? You and your imaginary friends?


I'm pretty sure that he was referring to the non-Magic fans. We're just too stupid to grasp the greatness of Courtney Lee, I guess. I'm shocked that the Cavs haven't tried to trade LeBron for him yet.


----------



## Blue

ehmunro said:


> I'm pretty sure that he was referring to the non-Magic fans. We're just too stupid to grasp the greatness of Courtney Lee, I guess. I'm shocked that the Cavs haven't tried to trade LeBron for him yet.


Nah, you just underrate him is all we're saying. We're not saying he's the greatest player to ever grace the planet earth, but @ the same time, he's not a one-dimensional bum either. He has the skillset and the traits to be an impact player in this league. He has the potential to be a Jason Terry/Rip Hamilton type of impact player if he keeps it up and those guys are not one diminsional. JJ Redick is a one diminsional, spot up shooter. Courtney Lee has a better repetior than just that, and that is what we've been trying to say... We've watched almost every game he's played in, we would know....


----------



## E.H. Munro

Blue Magic said:


> Nah, you just underrate him is all we're saying. We're not saying he's the greatest player to ever grace the planet earth


You may not be, but many of the Magic fans have been more or less hinting at that with their Orlangasms.


----------



## moss_is_1

I cant believe i go into this and read the last 10 or so pages and see everyone talking about, courtney lee, eric gordon, oden, lopez and derrick rose. Barely mention mayo and then I haven't seen anyone say anything about Kevin Love. Why doesn't he get any respect? Best rebounder despite playing about 25 minutes, improving his shot and offensive game each game. Starting to realize he should take bigger players out and face them up and post up the smaller players. Love is a beast and im sure he'll pry finish out of the top 5 in ROY which in IMO is bullcrap.


----------



## Prolific Scorer

ehmunro said:


> I'm pretty sure that he was referring to the non-Magic fans. We're just too stupid to grasp the greatness of Courtney Lee, I guess. I'm shocked that the Cavs haven't tried to trade LeBron for him yet.


First you're praising my "analysis" on Lee, and now you're going to your bag of sarcasm...



> Now that's a reasonable analysis. It's hard to believe that you're a Magic fan.


Make up your mind already.

Plus my beef isn't with the over/underrating of Courtney Lee, but some clown forming an opinion or backing up what someone else is saying on a player he / she's never even seen play before. Once again I ask does that make any sense?


----------



## Ras

Look man, don't ****ing insult me. Especially don't insult me on something that other people seemed to get and you just didn't understand; that's not my fault. I never claimed to form any opinion. I never even backed opinions. The only reason why I came in this thread was because no seemed to be getting each other's points, and I thought it was worth clarifying. I'm not here to say one way or another if anyone is right at all. Like honestly, what the hell is this...



> ...some clown forming an opinion or backing up what someone else is saying on a player he / she's never even seen play before. Once again I ask does that make any sense?





> Get YOUR **** straight next time.


bootsrenf understood, and I assume others did too. Just drop it man, because you're not even arguing against me, you're arguing against what you think I'm doing, and you just don't know.



> Exactly. Don't get mad at me for what YOU wrote.
> 
> "I think they were just saying he benefits from playing on the Magic.." That part is fine, but like you said I guess you forgot to add an extra they because the 2nd part "...because he can't create for himself" makes it look like that's what YOU think...& besides, that's not even the case because Lee can create for himself.


Others understood it, and I really didn't think it was so complicated. It might make it look like that to you, but apparently others had no problem, and it made sense to me if you read the whole line as one thought. Don't get upset at me because you took it differently, and you have no right to insult me based on that.



> Plus why are you even in the discussion or co-signing what someone else is saying on a player you HAVE NEVER SEEN play? It just makes you look retarded, especially when you come out and admit that it's true.


I'm not co-signing at all. My initial point was that, if you can shoot, you're not necessarily a good offensive player, which takes no analysis of the player at hand. They were all saying he can't create and fit that role that Rose and Mayo fit because of things like that, and you were all saying he hits his shots but has shot selection. All I said was being able to hit those shots doesn't give you the ability of a Rose or Mayo to create. I never meant to imply one way or another I'm standing up for this or that, or I believe this or that. I never did, and never meant to. So don't jump on me based on assumptions you make because it's ****ing insulting.

Also, to Blue Magic, I never meant you're too dim to understand the point of others at all. It's easy when in a debate to stick hard to your side and stay head strong without necessarily truly considering what other people are saying. I figured that may be happening all around here because there were points that were mentioned that weren't addressed that I figured would help the discussion. Obviously I was wrong, and now I know I just shouldn't say a word.


----------



## Accelerate

moss_is_1 said:


> I cant believe i go into this and read the last 10 or so pages and see everyone talking about, courtney lee, eric gordon, oden, lopez and derrick rose. Barely mention mayo and then I haven't seen anyone say anything about Kevin Love. Why doesn't he get any respect? Best rebounder despite playing about 25 minutes, improving his shot and offensive game each game. Starting to realize he should take bigger players out and face them up and post up the smaller players. Love is a beast and im sure he'll pry finish out of the top 5 in ROY which in IMO is bullcrap.


True, though I think he'll finish in the top 5. They'll have Rose, Lopez, Westbrook and Mayo over him. He's been having a better rookie campaign than anyone else.

Plus, I just stumbled upon this little bit of gold.


----------



## Blue

Ras said:


> Look man, don't ****ing insult me. Especially don't insult me on something that other people seemed to get and you just didn't understand; that's not my fault. I never claimed to form any opinion. I never even backed opinions. The only reason why I came in this thread was because no seemed to be getting each other's points, and I thought it was worth clarifying. I'm not here to say one way or another if anyone is right at all. Like honestly, what the hell is this...
> 
> bootsrenf understood, and I assume others did too. Just drop it man, because you're not even arguing against me, you're arguing against what you think I'm doing, and you just don't know.
> 
> Others understood it, and I really didn't think it was so complicated. It might make it look like that to you, but apparently others had no problem, and it made sense to me if you read the whole line as one thought. Don't get upset at me because you took it differently, and you have no right to insult me based on that.
> 
> I'm not co-signing at all. My initial point was that, if you can shoot, you're not necessarily a good offensive player, which takes no analysis of the player at hand. They were all saying he can't create and fit that role that Rose and Mayo fit because of things like that, and you were all saying he hits his shots but has shot selection. All I said was being able to hit those shots doesn't give you the ability of a Rose or Mayo to create. I never meant to imply one way or another I'm standing up for this or that, or I believe this or that. I never did, and never meant to. So don't jump on me based on assumptions you make because it's ****ing insulting.
> 
> Also, to Blue Magic, I never meant you're too dim to understand the point of others at all. It's easy when in a debate to stick hard to your side and stay head strong without necessarily truly considering what other people are saying. I figured that may be happening all around here because there were points that were mentioned that weren't addressed that I figured would help the discussion. Obviously I was wrong, and now I know I just shouldn't say a word.


What's makes it confusing is the fact that you were only 're-iterating' ONE side of the arguement, so it comes off like you were supporting that side(even if you weren't)... It's not that we weren't considering what the other side had to say, we(at least I) just disagreed with some of their evaluations of him. That's the problem. 

I have no problem thinking that he will only be a role player, but it's not just that. They were saying he was one-dimensional and was only good for standing in a corner and launching. Their evaluations were completely off. They said that Eric Gordon blows him away @ absolutely everything and will be the next Ray Allen, while Lee can only be more of a low level role-player like Boobie Gibson or Eddie House.... It's evaluatios like that that let you know that they dont know **** about a player. It's just been pretty much straight disrespect, and if you dare say he's anything more than a low-level role player you must be implying that he deserves ROY and is the best player on the planet. Meanwhile, Eric Gordon is the next Ray Allen and is on a completely different echelon than Lee, or any other rookie to even be worth a comparison.... Dont question that logic.... If you do, you must suffer from 'Orlangasm' and are clearly a delusional... 

Some advice tho... Next time you jumo into an argument you should re-iterate what both sides are saying, not just one side... that way it wont come off like your backing them and not the other....


----------



## The Krakken

So um....yeah......Rose is ROY.


----------



## Blue

Yup, it should be:
1)Rose
2)Westbrook
3)Mayo
4)Lopez
5)Love(?)


----------



## Accelerate

Blue Magic said:


> Yup, it should be:
> 1)Rose
> 2)Westbrook
> 3)Mayo
> 4)Lopez
> 5)Love(?)


Lopez should be higher than Mayo and arguably higher than Westbrook.


----------



## moss_is_1

Accelerate said:


> Lopez should be higher than Mayo and arguably higher than Westbrook.


lol no way. 
1.Rose
2.Mayo
3.Westbrook
4.Love
5. Gordon/Lopez


----------



## Accelerate

moss_is_1 said:


> lol no way.
> 1.Rose
> 2.Mayo
> 3.Westbrook
> 4.Love
> 5. Gordon/Lopez


Really? I think it's general consensus that Rose, Westbrook and Lopez are the top three (you'd be hard-pressed to find a recent rookie ranking where those three don't make up the top three). Mayo's been pretty unspectacular for a while now so I don't know why you'd have Mayo over Westbrook. I like Love but you really can't have him over Lopez; Lopez has better statistics across the board except for boards.


----------



## MemphisX

Accelerate said:


> Really? I think it's general consensus that Rose, Westbrook and Lopez are the top three (you'd be hard-pressed to find a recent rookie ranking where those three don't make up the top three). Mayo's been pretty unspectacular for a while now so *I don't know why you'd have Mayo over Westbrook.* I like Love but you really can't have him over Lopez; Lopez has better statistics across the board except for boards.


Mayo was better than Westbrook in almost every month of the season including March. The problem is that people are measuring Mayo vs. November Mayo instead of vs. the other rookies. Westbrook hasn't shot over 40% since the last two months. Lopez hasn't come roaring down the stretch either.

So Rose is the ROY but Mayo should be 2nd.


----------



## Blue

MemphisX said:


> Mayo was better than Westbrook in almost every month of the season including March. The problem is that people are measuring Mayo vs. November Mayo instead of vs. the other rookies. Westbrook hasn't shot over 40% since the last two months. Lopez hasn't come roaring down the stretch either.
> 
> So Rose is the ROY but Mayo should be 2nd.


But the issue is, outside of scoring, what does Mayo do better than Westbrook? He has been the better scorer, but other than that Westbrook's per game #'s are better across the board... in 5 less mins/per.


----------



## HB

I am watching the Bulls-Nets game now, and I gotta say whilst Rose might be ROY, I wont be surprised if Lopez has the better career. His progression has been really good. Not many bigs in the league have the type of skills he has on offense.


----------



## Blue

^True. But the thing that separates Lopez from Love right now is his defense imo. That's why I still got Lopez ahead of him...

And I gotta disagree, I dont think that anyone in this class will have a better career than Rose in terms of individual #'s... Maybe someone else will have better team success, but individually, I dont see anyone more talented than Rose can be.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

Lopez is gonna be real good, but Derrick Rose will be a superstar. That is if he stays healthy.


----------



## hroz

Its Rose. End of debate.

2nd is close though Mayo Westbrook & Lopez all have claims but I gotta go with Mayo. He has dropped off yes. But so have the other two.
Westbrook needs to get his FG% > .400. It is starting to seriously dip.


----------



## Ras

Blue Magic said:


> What's makes it confusing is the fact that you were only 're-iterating' ONE side of the arguement, so it comes off like you were supporting that side(even if you weren't)... It's not that we weren't considering what the other side had to say, we(at least I) just disagreed with some of their evaluations of him. That's the problem.
> 
> I have no problem thinking that he will only be a role player, but it's not just that. They were saying he was one-dimensional and was only good for standing in a corner and launching. Their evaluations were completely off. They said that Eric Gordon blows him away @ absolutely everything and will be the next Ray Allen, while Lee can only be more of a low level role-player like Boobie Gibson or Eddie House.... It's evaluatios like that that let you know that they dont know **** about a player. It's just been pretty much straight disrespect, and if you dare say he's anything more than a low-level role player you must be implying that he deserves ROY and is the best player on the planet. Meanwhile, Eric Gordon is the next Ray Allen and is on a completely different echelon than Lee, or any other rookie to even be worth a comparison.... Dont question that logic.... If you do, you must suffer from 'Orlangasm' and are clearly a delusional...
> 
> Some advice tho... Next time you jumo into an argument you should re-iterate what both sides are saying, not just one side... that way it wont come off like your backing them and not the other....


I actually didn't realize they said he would be that bad. He definitely seems to be on a much better path then Boobie or Eddie House.


----------



## Vuchato




----------



## MemphisX

Blue Magic said:


> But the issue is, *outside of scoring*, what does Mayo do better than Westbrook? He has been the better scorer, but other than that *Westbrook's per game #'s are better across the board*... in 5 less mins/per.


By outside of scoring you mean to include FG%, FT%, 3FG% and turnovers. So he is better in rebounding and assists while being marginally better in steals.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Ras said:


> I actually didn't realize they said he would be that bad. He definitely seems to be on a much better path then Boobie or Eddie House.


Actually, he's exaggerating. He said that Lee could do what Eric Gordon did (which he can't), and because he was drafted at 22 it proved that guys like Egordo weren't that valuable. What we pointed out is that Lee's a spot shooter that benefits from being able to get open corner treys in Orlando. Which sent the Magic fans in paroxysms of fury. One of them even claimed that Lee would outperform Mayo if their places were switched. It's Orlando's version of Delonte West Syndrome.


----------



## Blue

ehmunro said:


> Actually, he's exaggerating. He said that Lee could do what Eric Gordon did (which he can't), and because he was drafted at 22 it proved that guys like Egordo weren't that valuable. What we pointed out is that Lee's a spot shooter that benefits from being able to get open corner treys in Orlando. Which sent the Magic fans in paroxysms of fury. One of them even claimed that Lee would outperform Mayo if their places were switched. It's Orlando's version of Delonte West Syndrome.


No, we were talking about shooting and I was saying you can find shooters like EGo easily. I used CLee as an example from this very draft & said the way they play is comparable, but for whatever reason he wanted blast Lee's entire game. That's how everything started. 

I never said that Lee was better than Eric Gordon, or that Eric Gordon wasn't valuable(He keeps saying this:krazy. He's just not as valuable as Derrick Rose.  If had two picks in this years draft to build around, I would take a combo of Derrick Rose & Courtney Lee before I took a combo of Eric Gordon & Mario Chalmers/DJ Augustin(or pretty much pick any other rookie PG not named russell westbrook). That's how much I value Rose's skills over EGo. What Ego brings really is not all that rare. For goodness sake, Mike Taylor even puts up good #'s for the Clippers.


----------



## bootstrenf

Blue Magic said:


> No, we were talking about shooting and I was saying you can find shooters like EGo easily. I used CLee as an example from this very draft & said the way they play is comparable, but for whatever reason he wanted blast Lee's entire game. That's how everything started.
> 
> I never said that Lee was better than Eric Gordon, or that Eric Gordon wasn't valuable(He keeps saying this:krazy. He's just not as valuable as Derrick Rose.  If had two picks in this years draft to build around, I would take a combo of Derrick Rose & Courtney Lee before I took a combo of Eric Gordon & Mario Chalmers/DJ Augustin(or pretty much pick any other rookie PG not named russell westbrook). That's how much I value Rose's skills over EGo. What Ego brings really is not all that rare. *For goodness sake, Mike Taylor even puts up good #'s for the Clippers*.


he had a 2 game stretch where he scored 58 points, but if you take that away, he hasn't really done much in terms of stats.....

5ppg/1.7rpg/2apg/.7spg/1topg - this is including his 2 game outburst....

is that what you call good #'s???


mike taylor is a nice change of pace guy that occasionally relieves baron davis at the one.....he pushes the ball upcourt at a fast pace, and he is a good energy hustle guy......he comes in for his defense......but i wouldn't say that he puts up good #'s......that's laughable.....


----------



## E.H. Munro

bootstrenf said:


> he had a 2 game stretch where he scored 58 points, but if you take that away, he hasn't really done much in terms of stats.....
> 
> 5ppg/1.7rpg/2apg/.7spg/1topg - this is including his 2 game outburst....
> 
> is that what you call good #'s???
> 
> 
> mike taylor is a nice change of pace guy that occasionally relieves baron davis at the one.....he pushes the ball upcourt at a fast pace, and he is a good energy hustle guy......he comes in for his defense......but i wouldn't say that he puts up good #'s......that's laughable.....


See, you shouldn't have argued, because when PGs like Mike Taylor put up good numbers it "proves" that point guards "aren't that valuable". :bsmile:


----------



## Blue

ehmunro said:


> See, you shouldn't have argued, because when PGs like Mike Taylor put up good numbers it "proves" that point guards "aren't that valuable". :bsmile:


So, if you had the #1 pick your telling me you would take Eric Gordon over Derrick Rose(i'm assuming, since you value his skillset soo much)? I mean looking @ the production of the Clippers team and the production of the Bull's, Mike Taylor is really the quintessential example a PG gem that I want leading my team to high places. EGo is really having an impact on team wins, putting up these big #'s for the Clippers. Give me a break, the Clippers aren't winning anything right now and no offense, are a league bottom feeder. Those guys aren't playing in a disciplined system conducive to winning. The Bulls are @ least in the playoff hunt with Rose putting up these #'s. Magic are in the champioship hunt with Lee as a key starter. I guess their teammates are just soo good that the opposing team neglects him on a regular basis. This explains why their #'s are so good. I mean, if Rose was givin the responsibility of starting for the Clippers, his #'s would plummet drastically. Constant double-teams and the pressure of being the go-to-guy for an 18 win team would just be too much to cope with. In Chicago, he just gets the benefit of playing of play with a good team. Put Gordon in Chicago and he would be scoring 25 a night. Put Rose in LA and he would barely get a shot up. I mean, do you guys not see the pressure that Eric Gordon is playing through every night! I think I see it. I finally see the light! I got 2 thank eh & bootstrenf for helping see the light. I will now campaign Eric Gordon 4 ROY.


----------



## bootstrenf

Blue Magic said:


> So, if you had the #1 pick your telling me you would take Eric Gordon over Derrick Rose(i'm assuming, since you value his skillset soo much)? I mean looking @ the production of the Clippers team and the production of the Bull's, Mike Taylor is really the quintessential example a PG gem that I want leading my team to high places. EGo is really having an impact on team wins, putting up these big #'s for the Clippers. Give me a break, the Clippers aren't winning anything right now and no offense, are a league bottom feeder. Those guys aren't playing in a disciplined system conducive to winning. The Bulls are @ least in the playoff hunt with Rose putting up these #'s. Magic are in the champioship hunt with Lee as a key starter. *I guess their teammates are just soo good that the opposing team neglects him on a regular basis. This explains why their #'s are so good*. I mean, if Rose was givin the responsibility of starting for the Clippers, his #'s would plummet drastically. Constant double-teams and the pressure of being the go-to-guy for an 18 win team would just be too much to cope with. In Chicago, he just gets the benefit of playing of play with a good team. Put Gordon in Chicago and he would be scoring 25 a night. Put Rose in LA and he would barely get a shot up. I mean, do you guys not see the pressure that Eric Gordon is playing through every night! I think I see it. I finally see the light! I got 2 thank eh & bootstrenf for helping see the light. I will now campaign Eric Gordon 4 ROY.




yes, because lee is putting up some AWESOME numbers!!!!

good point!!!!

:lol:



by the way, i was responding to your post about mike taylor.....why did you start talking about eric gordon???? i didn't even mention gordon's name.....

everything in my post and ehmunro's post was referring to mike taylor, and you dredge up stuff that wasn't even being discussed at the time.....


now why don't you actually repsond to this:



bootstrenf said:


> he had a 2 game stretch where he scored 58 points, but if you take that away, he hasn't really done much in terms of stats.....
> 
> 5ppg/1.7rpg/2apg/.7spg/1topg - this is including his 2 game outburst....
> 
> is that what you call good #'s???
> 
> 
> mike taylor is a nice change of pace guy that occasionally relieves baron davis at the one.....he pushes the ball upcourt at a fast pace, and he is a good energy hustle guy......he comes in for his defense......but i wouldn't say that he puts up good #'s......that's laughable.....


----------



## Blue

bootstrenf said:


> yes, because lee is putting up some AWESOME numbers!!!!
> 
> good point!!!!
> 
> :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> by the way, i was responding to your post about mike taylor.....why did you start talking about eric gordon???? i didn't even mention gordon's name.....
> 
> everything in my post and ehmunro's post was referring to mike taylor, and you dredge up stuff that wasn't even being discussed at the time.....
> 
> 
> now why don't you actually repsond to this:


Because, EH was inferring that Mike Taylor is evidence of some kind of undrafted PG gem. I know what his sarcasm was referring to. As for your post, I'm saying that there's no way Mike Taylor is even sniffing 20 shot attempts on a winning team. Not @ his efficiency.


----------



## E.H. Munro

No, I was actually making fun of your laughable claim that Courtney Lee was proof that you can always find guys like Eric Gordon.


----------



## Blue

It's easier to find someone similar to him than someone similar to Rose. If you dont believe that than we'll just agree to disagree, because i'm tired of talking about this...


----------



## E.H. Munro

It's not easy to find primary scorers, no matter many times you claim otherwise.


----------



## Blue

ehmunro said:


> It's not easy to find primary scorers, no matter many times you claim otherwise.


Eric Gordan will not win as a primary 'lead' scorer tho. He's more of a Ben Gordon, 2ndery option type of guy. Too small to be a dominant 2, but @ the same time not really a PG. He's more Ben Gordan, than Joe Johnson imo. You cant always find effective 'primary scorers'? See Ben Gordon, Rip Hamilton, JR Smith, Jason Terry, Kevin Martin, Jason Richardson, Nate Robinson, Leandro Barbosa, Larry Hughes, John Salmons, too many 2 name..... Those guys are all 'primary scorers', but niether are winning as a 1st option.


----------



## Blue

ESPN's Rookie Watch:



> *All-Rookie First Team*
> 
> *Derrick Rose, Bulls:* Among rookies, he is second in scoring and minutes per game and first in assists (6.2). He was handed a ton of responsibility immediately and handled it all with grace and professionalism. And though he went No. 1 overall, he probably exceeded the expectations of most people.
> 
> *Russell Westbrook, Thunder:* Only rookie to rank in the top 10 among rookies in scoring (15.5), rebounding (4.8) and assists (5.1). He is also second in steals and first in free throws made and attempted. He willed his team to some terrific wins and showed incredible promise.
> 
> *O.J. Mayo, Grizzlies:* First among rookies in scoring (18.4) and minutes (38.0), and is already considered one of the league's top jump-shooters. He also competes hard on defense and appears to be very professional.
> 
> *Kevin Love, Timberwolves:* Already one of the league's top rebounders, he is competing with Speights for the rookie PER crown. He is also a smart interior defender and should be a strong starter for years to come.
> 
> *Brook Lopez, Nets:* He's been nothing short of a revelation. One of the top free-throw shooting centers in basketball, he is an excellent scorer, rebounder and shot-blocker. He has been probably the most productive rookie of the class, and he can become a cornerstone center, which is one of the most valuable positions.
> 
> 
> *All-Offensive Team*
> 
> *Derrick Rose:* See Offensive Rookie of the Year.
> 
> *Eric Gordon:* Incredibly explosive off the dribble and a terrific shooter, too. Excellent in a half-court or running game.
> 
> *D.J. Augustin:* Great combination of outside shooting and dribble-penetration skills. Chasing him off the 3-point line works great for his midrange game.
> 
> *O.J. Mayo:* Very confident shooter with a great talent for getting jump shots off while under control. Strong transition finisher, as well.
> 
> *Michael Beasley:* Scores in a variety of ways and has an excellent face-up game. He's the difficult matchup we expected him to be.
> 
> 
> *All-Defensive Team*
> 
> *Mario Chalmers:* First among rookies in steals (1.9) and helped Miami improve greatly on defense.
> 
> *Courtney Lee:* The best perimeter defender on the league's best defensive team.
> 
> *O.J. Mayo:* Competes hard on this end and has the best defensive rebound rate (12.2) of any rookie guard.
> 
> *Luc Richard Mbah a Moute:* Uses length and strength to bother and sometimes smother scorers.
> 
> *Brook Lopez:* See Defensive Rookie of the Year.
> 
> *Honorable mention:* Russell Westbrook
> Not at all a shut-down guy (yet) but great at creating chaos. Second to Chalmers in steals, with 1.4 per game.
> 
> 
> *2nd Team*
> 
> DJ Augustin
> Eric Gordon
> Rudy Fernandez
> Michael Beasely
> Marc Gasol
> 
> *3rd Team*
> 
> Mario Chalmers
> Courtney Lee
> Luc Richard Mbah a Moute
> Jason Thompson
> Marreesse Speights


----------



## Accelerate

Finally, something (20%) official. The Oklahoman, via NetsDaily:


> *Rose ROY favorite*
> Chicago Bulls guard Derrick Rose is expected to be named Rookie of the Year based on a sampling of ballots. The Oklahoman has compiled votes from 25 of 123 sportswriters and broadcasters who have ballots. That’s only 20 percent of the votes, but Rose was named No. 1 on all 25 ballots.
> 
> Of the 25 votes tabulated, Thunder point guard Russell Westbrook is third, behind New Jersey center Brook Lopez, both narrowly ahead of Memphis’ O.J. Mayo.
> 
> Westbrook received seven second-place votes and 11 third-place votes and was left off seven ballots. Lopez has 14 second-place votes and eight third-place. Mayo received eight seconds, seven thirds and was left off 10 ballots.


Link


Accelerate said:


> Lopez should be higher than Mayo and arguably higher than Westbrook.





moss_is_1 said:


> lol no way.
> 1.Rose
> 2.Mayo
> 3.Westbrook
> 4.Love
> 5.Gordon/Lopez


----------



## MemphisX

Mayo off 10 ballots. Funny stuff.

It is amazing to me that nobodys asks the questions: If Lopez is so good then why can't the Nets make the playoffs in the East with two All Star guards?


----------



## Accelerate

MemphisX said:


> Mayo off 10 ballots. Funny stuff.
> 
> It is amazing to me that nobodys asks the questions: If Lopez is so good then why can't the Nets make the playoffs in the East with two All Star guards?


They only have one All-Star guard (though they picked the wrong one and the one that they did elected not to play the stalwart defense he was known for before coming to the Swamp). Be honest here: before the season started, did you really project the Nets to be in playoff contention all the way until March? They had exactly three players from the previous year's training camp (Vince Carter, Josh Boone and D-League bound Sean Williams). Their starting frontcourt on opening night? Bobby Simmons, Yi Jianlian and Josh Boone. Their biggest free agent acquisition (Eduardo Najera) had to be shut down for the season. The team has seven players on their rookie contracts, five players 22 and under, including three rookies. Harris was 25 at the start of the season. Hayes is 27. They're a rebuilding, young team who nobody had any business expecting more than 25 wins and 14th in the East this season. Yi and Harris have missed some time to injuries, as well. In short, this is a bad team that exceeded expectations.

Plus, is team record supposed to have a whole lot of bearing on the Rookie of the Year award, given these usually players on teams in the lottery the previous year? They'll probably tie last year's record, when they weren't rebuilding, which in itself is more than anyone could have expected. Also, look at the Grizzlies' and the Thunder's records. They haven't improved considerably despite obtaining their heavyweight rooks (and an emerged superstar in Durant for OKC), either. The Bulls only really picked it up after obtaining Salmons and Miller, as well.


----------



## Accelerate

Look at the team records for the past ten ROYs.

99-00: Elton Brand (Bulls: 17-65), Steve Francis (Rockets: 34-48)
00-01: Mike Miller (Magic: 43-39)
01-02: Pau Gasol (Grizzlies: 23-59)
02-03: Amare Stoudemire (Suns: 44-38)
03-04: LeBron James (Cavaliers: 35-47)
04-05: Emeka Okafor (Bobcats: 18-64)
05-06: Chris Paul (Hornets: 38-44)
06-07: Brandon Roy (Blazers: 32-50)
07-08: Kevin Durant (Sonics: 20-62)

Only two have had .500+ seasons. The average record for a ROY winner the past ten years is 28-54.


----------



## GNG

Mayo left off 40 percent of the tallied ballots. That's such a joke. :lol:

When was the last time the leading rookie scorer finished fourth or lower? If Mayo played in a city with more than 700 thousand people, he'd either win the thing or be neck-and-neck with Rose.


----------



## Blue

^It's not like Westbrook is playing in a big market either, but he is still in 2nd place tho?


----------



## MemphisX

Accelerate said:


> They only have one All-Star guard (though they picked the wrong one and the one that they did elected not to play the stalwart defense he was known for before coming to the Swamp). Be honest here: before the season started, did you really project the Nets to be in playoff contention all the way until March? They had exactly three players from the previous year's training camp (Vince Carter, Josh Boone and D-League bound Sean Williams). Their starting frontcourt on opening night? Bobby Simmons, Yi Jianlian and Josh Boone. Their biggest free agent acquisition (Eduardo Najera) had to be shut down for the season. The team has seven players on their rookie contracts, five players 22 and under, including three rookies. Harris was 25 at the start of the season. Hayes is 27. They're a rebuilding, young team who nobody had any business expecting more than 25 wins and 14th in the East this season. Yi and Harris have missed some time to injuries, as well. In short, this is a bad team that exceeded expectations.
> 
> Plus, is team record supposed to have a whole lot of bearing on the Rookie of the Year award, given these usually players on teams in the lottery the previous year? They'll probably tie last year's record, when they weren't rebuilding, which in itself is more than anyone could have expected. Also, look at the Grizzlies' and the Thunder's records. They haven't improved considerably despite obtaining their heavyweight rooks (and an emerged superstar in Durant for OKC), either. The Bulls only really picked it up after obtaining Salmons and Miller, as well.


Well, nobody thought Devin Harris would be an All Star at the start of the season but he was and Vince had an All Star season. Plus they have had coaching stability. The Nets are worse than they were last year. I am willing to bet that if you told everyone this summer that Lopez would perform like he has and Harris would become an All Star, they would have thought the Nets would be a playoff team.

I guess we just act like the 1st two months of the season don't count and just act like Mayo hasn't out performed Westbrook the entire season.


----------



## croco

MemphisX said:


> Well, nobody thought Devin Harris would be an All Star at the start of the season but he was and Vince had an All Star season. Plus they have had coaching stability. The Nets are worse than they were last year. I am willing to bet that if you told everyone this summer that Lopez would perform like he has and Harris would become an All Star, they would have thought the Nets would be a playoff team.
> 
> I guess we just act like the 1st two months of the season don't count and just act like Mayo hasn't out performed Westbrook the entire season.


The Nets aren't worse than last season. All things considered, their future is looking a bit better than I thought at the beginning of the season. Still not a playoff team unless they have a great draft, but the emergence of Devin Harris and surprisingly good play of Lopez have made them just as competitive as last year.


----------



## GNG

Blue Magic said:


> ^It's not like Westbrook is playing in a big market either, but he is still in 2nd place tho?


He plays with the biggest rising star in the NBA and thus, by proxy, is instantly more visible. Oklahoma City has also gotten a lot of interest this year by virtue of it being their first season after relocating.

The leading rookie scorer finishing fourth or even lower on 40 percent of the ballots is a sham.


----------



## Luke

Cinco de Mayo said:


> Mayo left off 40 percent of the tallied ballots. That's such a joke. :lol:
> 
> When was the last time the leading rookie scorer finished fourth or lower? If Mayo played in a city with more than 700 thousand people, he'd either win the thing or be neck-and-neck with Rose.


Come on, I know that you're a huge Mayo/Gizz fan but you can't actually think that he deserves it over Rose do you? It was really close at one point but Mayo's efficiency took a huge hit along with his overall preformance whereas Rose kept up his strong play and led the Bulls to a playoff spot.

Oh, and it's arguable that Westbrook and Lopez have both been better then Mayo too.


----------



## Instinctive

I believe Mayo deserves it over Rose. Just because Rose's team is in the playoffs and has the better record means nothing. If that was the case Al Horford would have won it last year over Kevin Durant. O.J. Mayo for Rookie of the Year! You already know what it is.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

The way I'd put it is:

1. Rose
2. Lopez
3. Mayo
4. Westbrook


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Instinctive said:


> I believe Mayo deserves it over Rose. Just because Rose's team is in the playoffs and has the better record means nothing. If that was the case Al Horford would have won it last year over Kevin Durant. O.J. Mayo for Rookie of the Year! You already know what it is.


Except Rose is the best player on that team, and Horford was third at best (Johnson and Smith). Like it or not, there is something to be said for being the best player on a playoff team as a rookie, especially when that team didn't make the playoffs the year before. 

Mayo should be 2nd and it's ridiculous he is being left off ballots, but I think Rose has created a seperation between himself and 2nd place.


----------



## SheriffKilla

first of all I wouldnt say Rose is the best player on the Bulls and even if he is their team is based on everyone playing their role not on a single player
Bulls have also looked better with Hinrich at the point at certain parts of the season....
With that said I do think Rose will win it and going by criteria for the award probably deserves it...
Michael Beasley has 76 points over the last 3 games and now that he is getting minutes and touches he is showing his potential
I still think he and Love will end up the best from this year with Rose a close 3rd
Mayo and Westbrook have really proved me wrong and Lopez looks like he will be a very good player at Center


----------



## MemphisX

Rose has earned the Brandon ROY award but Ben Gordon has been the best player on that team.


----------



## HB

No not really. Salmons is the one that revived their season. Gordon has hit some big shots, thats the weird thing about that team, there's no clear cut best player. Everyone from Ty Thomas to Joakim Noah has contributed one way or the other.


----------



## HB

MemphisX said:


> Well, nobody thought Devin Harris would be an All Star at the start of the season but he was and Vince had an All Star season. Plus they have had coaching stability. The Nets are worse than they were last year. I am willing to bet that if you told everyone this summer that Lopez would perform like he has and Harris would become an All Star, they would have thought the Nets would be a playoff team.
> 
> I guess we just act like the 1st two months of the season don't count and just act like Mayo hasn't out performed Westbrook the entire season.


The Nets are about the same as last season if not better. Everyone had them finishing last this season. If not for a few unfortunate injuries and some tough losses, they could have made the playoffs. They exceeded my expectations, now next season they might be worse if VC gets traded and barring picking Griffin, there's no draft pick that will make up for the production. Then again, maybe they'll get someone good back in the trade.


----------



## HB

MemphisX said:


> Mayo off 10 ballots. Funny stuff.
> 
> It is amazing to me that nobodys asks the questions: If Lopez is so good then why can't the Nets make the playoffs in the East with two All Star guards?


Because the teams ahead of them right now have better depth. The Nets bench is full of inexperienced rookies and some injury prone vets. Also, rookies, especially big men, dont get calls. This is common sense. If Lopez were getting calls he deserved, his numbers would be better which would help the team more. Watch games, not stats!


----------



## GNG

HB said:


> Because the teams ahead of them right now have better depth. The Nets bench is full of inexperienced rookies and some injury prone vets. Also, rookies, especially big men, dont get calls. This is common sense. If Lopez were getting calls he deserved, his numbers would be better which would help the team more. Watch games, not stats!


The Grizzlies entire team is full of inexperienced players and injury prone scrub vets.


----------



## HB

True and I am not saying Mayo shouldn't be a top two rookie, just pointing out the flaws in Memphis' post.


----------



## Luke

Instinctive said:


> I believe Mayo deserves it over Rose. Just because Rose's team is in the playoffs and has the better record means nothing. If that was the case Al Horford would have won it last year over Kevin Durant. O.J. Mayo for Rookie of the Year! You already know what it is.


Care to back that up with something that isn't subjective opinions?


----------



## HB

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2009041317

Any statlines stand out in that boxscore?


----------



## Blue

^18pts,20rebs,2ast,2blks. damn. :clap:


----------



## Wade County

Lopez has been a huge suprise this season. Who knew hed be this good, this quick? What a steal by the Nets.


----------



## The Krakken

Accelerate said:


> The Bulls only really picked it up after obtaining Salmons and Miller, as well.


That's misleading, considering they weren't healthy until around that time with ALL of Hinrich, Deng, Tyrus, Noah, Nocioni, etc....missing time. In the case of Deng, Nocioni and Hinrich, two of the bulls 5 best players up to that point, they missed SIGNIFICANT TIME. Deng and Nocioni never were completely healthy (making it easier for Chicago to jettison Nocioni).

Miller, Salmons and Tim Thomas all came onboard right when the bulls got healthy (exception to Deng).

Their Health had as much to do with it as anything.


----------



## The Krakken

Cinco de Mayo said:


> He plays with the biggest rising star in the NBA and thus, by proxy, is instantly more visible. Oklahoma City has also gotten a lot of interest this year by virtue of it being their first season after relocating.


You overestimate Durant's Visibility. To the CASUAL basketball fan, the one that follows his team but isn't really concerned with the "Beauty of the game as a whole" (90% of basketball fans), Durant just isn't that visible.


----------



## HB

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=thorpe_david&page=Rookies-090414

Thorpe gives Rose the edge over Lopez, surprisingly says Lopez is very similar to Yao.


----------



## Luke

Lopez just passed Westbrook for second in my book. Russell has been playing awful, and Lopez is keeping on strong.

It's still Rose's award though.


----------



## The Krakken

This Myth has gone unchecked long enough.....




fjkdsi said:


> first of all I wouldnt say Rose is the best player on the Bulls and even if he is their team is based on everyone playing their role not on a single player


He is their best player. Period. I've watched more than 70 Bulls games this year. Gordon is their best scorer. Rose is their best player. Hands down. Look beyond who puts the ball in the hoop the most and pay attention to other things too: Basketball IQ (advantage Rose), Passing (Rose), Creating Havoc and placing pressure on a defense (Rose), initiating the offense (Rose), NOT making big mistakes (Rose). Creating for others (Rose), Creating FT Opportunities (Rose--there really needs to be a tracked stat for this one). Outside of scoring, which I conceed, there's nothing Gordon does better than Rose. 




> Bulls have also looked better with Hinrich at the point at certain parts of the season....


That's a Red Herring and you know it. THe thunder have looked better at times without Durant. Does that mean he isn't their best player? Worst argument ever......




MemphisX said:


> Rose has earned the Brandon ROY award but Ben Gordon has been the best player on that team.


He was at the start of the season. He isn't anymore and hasn't been since the beginning of March. 



HB said:


> No not really. Salmons is the one that revived their season. Gordon has hit some big shots, thats the weird thing about that team, there's no clear cut best player. Everyone from Ty Thomas to Joakim Noah has contributed one way or the other.


What Salmons and Miller did more than anything else was increase the basketball IQ of the team. I've already addressed the #1 reason why the bulls improved from season's beginning to season's end.....OUTSIDE of Rose's development. They got healthier.


----------



## The Krakken

VanillaPrice said:


> Lopez just passed Westbrook for second in my book. Russell has been playing awful, and Lopez is keeping on strong.
> 
> It's still Rose's award though.


His statements about Rose are very telling....



> *Rose is third in PER (15.92) among rookies who have played 30-plus minutes a game, first among non-centers. Among rookies, he is second in scoring, first in assists and first in assists per turnovers.* And perhaps the most important stat of all is that the Bulls are back in the playoffs and have been one of the hottest teams in the NBA since the All-Star break. (Sometimes this has less meaning for rookies who play small roles and rarely play big minutes. *But with Rose, it takes on more meaning because his role has been huge in Chicago. As have his minutes.)*
> 
> But the case for Rose is more impressive once you get past the easy stats above. From Day 1, the Bulls have operated around a system that best allows Rose to play to his strengths: attacking the rim and finishing. His dribble-drive game is deadly and his strength allows him to finish shots even when he hasn't totally beaten his defender. *He gets to the rim for 39 percent of his shots, which is a strong number, and he finishes 56 percent of them, which is even stronger.*
> 
> Early on, teams allowed him to drive and did not devote much energy into helping onto him. So he flourished as a scorer, averaging 18.9 ppg on 50 percent shooting from the field in November. Then teams started helping more, forcing him to pass and think more. It worked to some extent, as Rose saw his scoring drop by over two points per game, while the Bulls had a losing month in every month until March.
> 
> *But during that time, he learned to make easy passes out to teammates if opponents reacted quickly to his drives. And, when forced to be a scorer, he became more efficient at getting baskets, especially in his midrange game. So when the Bulls added more perimeter threats at the trade deadline, their offense took off because of his lessons learned.*
> 
> One of Rose's best traits is his willingness to be a role player when necessary, allowing his teammates to take the bulk of the shots when the matchups dictate that. He has a maturity that is beyond his age and experience. His selflessness, though, is matched by his soaring confidence that he can take over at any time. And, in those times, he has earned his teammates' trust because they know he's trying to make the right play for the team. They'd be OK seeing him score just 9 points on 7 shots (with 7 assists and 5 boards) in a win just as they would be if he went for 23 points on 25 shots in a loss.
> 
> Those attributes are even more powerful than his stats, and they are what will make him an All-Star in the years to come, a key member for future versions of Team USA and a postseason star for the resurgent Bulls going forward.


----------



## HB

Health is one of the reasons why they got better true, BUT Salmons and Miller by far are more important reasons. Salmons and Gordon are two scorers that a lot of teams just dont have the luxury of, and yes just like you I have watched a lot of Bulls games this season. Rose is stable but he's never the one making the big plays when the team needs it. He's also a very stable player, you get almost the same output night in, night out basis.


----------



## King Joseus

HB said:


> Health is one of the reasons why they got better true, BUT Salmons and Miller by far are more important reasons. Salmons and Gordon are two scorers that a lot of teams just dont have the luxury of, and yes just like you I have watched a lot of Bulls games this season. Rose is stable *but he's never the one making the big plays when the team needs it.* He's also a very stable player, you get almost the same output night in, night out basis.


:krazy:


----------



## HB

Rose still defers to his teammates a lot!


----------



## Luke

HB said:


> Health is one of the reasons why they got better true, BUT Salmons and Miller by far are more important reasons. Salmons and Gordon are two scorers that a lot of teams just dont have the luxury of, and yes just like you I have watched a lot of Bulls games this season. Rose is stable but he's never the one making the big plays when the team needs it. He's also a very stable player, you get almost the same output night in, night out basis.


Have you watched Rose at all this year? Even in the last game against Detroit he blew up in the fourth quarter to bring the Bulls back. 

Also, him and Gordon have been the one's shooting the ball every single time that theres a game winning situation or a must have bucket late in the fourth.


----------



## King Joseus

HB said:


> Rose still defers to his teammates a lot!


Then you may wish to say that he _often_ or _sometimes_ is not the one to make the big play.


----------



## HB

Every big shot taken this year by the Bulls that I have watched as been by Gordon, and when Salmons came in, he's taken a bunch. No knock on Rose, Gordon's deadly in the 4th


----------



## King Joseus

HB said:


> Every big shot taken this year by the Bulls that I have watched as been by Gordon, and when Salmons came in, he's taken a bunch. No knock on Rose, Gordon's deadly in the 4th


Big shot ≠ last shot. Also, Gordon's still good in the 4th, but he hasn't quite been deadly for a while.


----------



## HB

Like I said on the previous page, the Bulls team is a weird team. There's no clear cut best player like other teams, now of course its easy to nominate Rose as their best player, but is his impact any more significant than Salmons, Miller or Gordon? Those guys have an off game and the Bulls dont win.


----------



## bball2223

So are you saying Lopez deserves ROY over Rose HB? Rose is always making huge plays for that team, just because he isn't hitting the clutch bucket everytime doesn't mean he doesn't play a huge role in them winning. He is a point guard and he has guys around him who can score, of course he is going to defer shots every once in a while. They aren't a playoff team with Hinrich running the point.


----------



## HB

Nope Rose is ROY no doubt about that, I do think Lopez could have the better career though. Also I dont know about that Bulls team not being a playoff team with Hinrich running the point. Hinrinch himself has been playing well of late, they've been to the playoffs with Hinrich btw.


----------



## The Krakken

HB said:


> Rose still defers to his teammates a lot!


That's HIS choice. If he feels the need to take over, he does just that.

If the only criticism that you have of him vs his teammates is that he defers to him and doesn't look for his shot enough, Well, I don't know what to say. He can't win. Earlier in the season, people were dogging him for being a "scoring PG" too much. Now he lets the game come to him and he's "too passive".


----------



## The Krakken

HB said:


> Like I said on the previous page, the Bulls team is a weird team. There's no clear cut best player like other teams, now of course its easy to nominate Rose as their best player, but is his impact any more significant than Salmons, Miller or Gordon? Those guys have an off game and the Bulls dont win.


Salmons had an off game last night, and the bulls won. In fact, Salmons has had an off week and a half. Gordon has had SEVERAL off games this month alone, and the bulls have won.

Like I said, he may not have STARTED the season the best player on the roster, but he most certainly has finished it as the best player on the roster.


----------



## RSP83

HB said:


> Also I dont know about that Bulls team not being a playoff team with Hinrich running the point. Hinrinch himself has been playing well of late, they've been to the playoffs with Hinrich btw.


The Bulls was a broken team at the beginning of the season. Yes the Bulls still had the old core who made the playoff intact (Gordon, Hinrich, Deng, Nocioni). But that team had pass it's prime (33 wins last year and severely unstable performance before AS this season). Derrick Rose was basically the only bright spot at the start of the season (Vinny no coaching experience, Tyrus slow start, Noah out of shape, Gordon contract situation, Hinrich injured, Deng not performing, Hughes attitude). Derrick Rose was the BIG reason the Bulls remain competitive early in the season(The bulls hovered around 8th - 11th seed). The funny thing about Derrick is that he's not very often the one making the game winning shot. But, he almost always the one who carry the team back and put the Bulls in a good position to win games. The Bulls season in overall looks exactly like that. Derrick Rose kept the Bulls competitive throughout the early part of the season and maintain the record within reach of playoff spot. When the schedule becomes easier after the All-Star break and Salmons and Miller brought in, the rest of the team step up and just take it from there. Luckily the Bulls are able to finish the season strong.

I honestly don't believe the Bulls would make the playoff without Rose. Salmons and Miller are great addition. But they didn't join the team until after the AS break. The team would already been in a much more difficult situation to get back into the playoff race. The other thing I like about Rose is how he manage to fit in with the team and lead without causing much friction. And to cap it off with a playoff spot (6th) is unbelievable. The Bulls has a group culture going on and it was not productive. For Rose to change that and make it work was not easy. I remember early in the season Rose had to earn respect of his teammate to get them to pass the ball to him. But he did a great job. Salmons and Miller trade further breaks the group culture and makes Rose job easier as a leader.


----------



## Priest

Rose isn't supposed to take the last shot that's a petty complaint


----------



## HB

He's not putting his stamp on a game like say a Wade does either, I dont know how to explain it. Its not about the last shot, or making clutch shots. Rose does his job and does a good job of doing it, but his other teammates are also significant cogs of that team too. If Rose is the best player on that team, he's not that much better than his other teammates at this point in time. I doubt teams are making having nightmares about making game plans to shut down Rose.


----------



## The Krakken

HB said:


> He's not putting his stamp on a game like say a Wade does either, I dont know how to explain it. Its not about the last shot, or making clutch shots. Rose does his job and does a good job of doing it, but his other teammates are also significant cogs of that team too. If Rose is the best player on that team, he's not that much better than his other teammates at this point in time. I doubt teams are making having nightmares about making game plans to shut down Rose.


And yet, he's the guy they gameplan to stop. And lately, they've been doing a piss poor job of it.


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## Smez86

HB said:


> He's not putting his stamp on a game like say a Wade does either, I dont know how to explain it. Its not about the last shot, or making clutch shots. Rose does his job and does a good job of doing it, but his other teammates are also significant cogs of that team too. If Rose is the best player on that team, he's not that much better than his other teammates at this point in time. I doubt teams are making having nightmares about making game plans to shut down Rose.


Their point is Rose may not be taking the last shot but he does make clutch shots. Multiple times this year he's single-handedly brought the Bulls back in the 4th quarter. (And it's Rose's fault he has good teammates? I don't understand that.) Also, it took teams about 5 to 10 games into the season to start double-teaming him. I'd say that shows some game planning.


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## HB

So Krakken you are telling me teams are more worried about Rose going off, than Gordon or Salmons? You really think thats true, come on now. I have seen teams absolutely panicking in the 4th when Gordon is on the court. And again, no knock on Rose, he does his job well.


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## The Krakken

HB said:


> So Krakken you are telling me teams are more worried about Rose going off, than Gordon or Salmons?[/b]


Actually when you add things up, yes I am. Rose goes off in different ways, I've already told you to pay attention to more than just scoring. The fact is Rose being on the court makes EVERYONE on the bulls better, and THAT is what frightens other teams. They face guard HIM now, not Gordon. They press HIM and double HIM when he has the ball in HIS hands....NOT gordon.

Yes, I think they are terrified when Rose has the ball in his hands in the 4th. Not because he's going to have a 25 pt 4th quarter, but because he might have a 12-14 point, 5 assist, 4 rebound, and 3 steals 4th quarter, while making it VERY difficult for teams to shut down Gordon and Salmons. Trust me, Gordon and Salmons would be MUCH easier to stop without Rose. The reverse is not necessarily apparent.


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## HB

But you are going to make me talk down Rose' impact but the fact of the matter is that Hinrich is a very capable back up point guard. I dont think the Bulls are drastically different without Rose.


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## The Krakken

HB said:


> But you are going to make me talk down Rose' impact but the fact of the matter is that Hinrich is a very capable back up point guard. I dont think the Bulls are drastically different without Rose.


If that were true, John Paxson would never have drafted him, and would have drafted Beasley instead.

They are DRASTICALLY different without Rose. Rose pushes the ball. Rose gets into the lane at will. Hinrich was never great at either. Rose, as a rookie, shoots a MUCH higher percentage than Hinrich has his whole career. Nobody EVER EVER gameplanned to stop Hinrich or take the ball out of his hands.

That's not to downplay Hinrich. Yes he is a very capable backup. But he's a backup nonetheless, and for a reason. And having capable backups doesn't diminish Rose's impact.

Hinrich could start at PG for about 20 teams in this league. But the bulls aren't one of them. That should say alot about Rose.

Rose is better than Hinrich as a rookie, and being 7 years younger....playing PG in the NBA.


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## The Krakken

Look, I don't think Rose is a superstar (yet). But the fact of the matter is, on a team with no superstars, Rose is the closest thing we have. I don't think his impact is WAY WAY greater than that of Gordon's or Salmons, but he is CLEARLY our best player.


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## The Krakken

Bulls down by 20 and the game slippng away?

Derrick Rose?

Score, Score, Asisist, Score, steal, Score. All in about 2 minutes.

Like I said, he's assertive when he wants to be.


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## The Krakken

Nice game tonight from those other "Best player on the bulls" candidates. They combined to go 9-35, and even those statistics were aided by Gordon Stat-padding at the end of the game.


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## HB

I see Salmons had 5 pts. Off-night no? Loss no?


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## Sir Patchwork

Gordon is the only guy you could argue being the best on that team. Salmons outscores Rose by 2 points per game, and Gordon outscores Rose by 4 points per game. The difference is, those two guys have one role, which is to score. They have the green light. Rose has to take on all the responsibilities of being a point guard, and on top of that isn't even that far behind them in the scoring column. I mean, if they had the luxury of telling Rose to look for his shot every time and be a scorer, he'd probably get 25 a night. They don't have that luxury though, because neither Hinrich or Gordon can play point guard full-time, and the previous years have proven that. 

The moral of the story is that Rose has the most responsibility on that team. He is asked to run point, keep everyone involved, and also to be a scorer. He balances different roles while everyone else on the team is kind of one dimensional in their role. Rose is the only one who can get into the paint and create for himself and his teammates. He is the only one who can consistently get good shots in the paint. The Bulls have been a jumpshooting team for the last couple years before Rose.


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## bootstrenf

rose is without doubt, the best player on the bulls, and he should win ROY....no contest.....


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## Najee

It's funny how some people were knocking Brook Lopez's field goal percentage earlier in the year. I wonder where they are now that Lopez's final clip is .531.


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## Sir Patchwork

Anybody still want to question whether Rose is the Bulls best player?


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## HB

No, but realize playoffs are all about adjustments. Rose isnt going to score 36 again, I highly doubt it. So the question then becomes? Can the Bulls win against the Celts if Gordon and Salmons have off nights. My biggest qualm with Rose is that he sometimes can be too passive out there, today that was not the case.



> It's funny how some people were knocking Brook Lopez's field goal percentage earlier in the year. I wonder where they are now that Lopez's final clip is .531.


Rocketeer the main perpetrator of that has always had flimsy arguments against Lopez. And yes, most on this board for some reason thought he wasn't going to sniff Oden's jock. Lopez' development curve is so ahead of Oden's right now, its almost sad.


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## Sir Patchwork

It shouldn't be a knock on Rose if Gordon and Salmons have off nights. They didn't play that well today (12-33 for 32 points) and the Bulls still won. 

I just think it's worth pointing out that on top of being their point guard, playmaker and distributor, he is also probably their best scorer. He just can't do everything all the time, so Gordon and Salmons have better scoring numbers. 

The Bulls could lose the next 4 games and he'd still be the best player on a playoff team.


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## Sir Patchwork

And I'm going to shut up about Oden until he can stay healthy for a sizable amount of time. He can't prove you wrong if he is always hurt. I will just say I look forward to seeing him play tonight and for the playoffs. Hope he doesn't get hurt.

Lopez > Oden until proven otherwise.


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## HB

IF he plays and I do hope he does have a healthy playoffs. He's a nice enough guy, he deserves a chance to prove himself.


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## Accelerate

Surprise, Derrick Rose is the Rookie of the Year.


HOOPSWORLD.com said:


> It appears as if today the inevitable will become a reality; the Chicago Bulls have scheduled a 2:00 CT press conference to announce "a major NBA award," which could only be the naming of Derrick Rose as the 2008-2009 Rookie of the Year.
> 
> As if his 16.8ppg and 6.3apg averages over the course of the regular season weren't enough, his 36-point, 11-assist performance in Game 1 of Chicago's playoff series against the Boston Celtics certainly solidified his role as this year's top rookie. Rose is, in fact, the only top rookie even in the playoffs at this point, something that certainly would have helped sway voters in choosing between him, New Jersey's Brook Lopez, Oklahoma City's Russell Westbrook, and Memphis's O.J. Mayo.
> 
> Rose finished the season first among rookies in assists and second among rookies in scoring. Despite the slew of high lottery picks the Bulls have had over the past decade, this is the first Chicago player to win the award since Elton Brand in 2000.


Link on HOOPSWORLD, via NetsDaily.com
Of course what we really want to know is who came second.


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## HB

He deserved it. Amazing draft class, so many guys contributing from this draft on their respective teams.


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## Basel

I went ahead and unstuck this after the announcement of Rose being named ROY.


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## Blue

Just curious, but do people still want to tell me that Courtney Lee is a one dimensional chucker?


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## Blue

Here are just the overall results if anyone wants to see(taken from the link above):

*2008-09 T-MOBILE NBA ROOKIE OF THE YEAR AWARD VOTING RESULTS*

Rookie, Team 1st 2nd 3rd *Total*
*Derrick Rose*, Chicago 111 5 4 *574*
*O.J. Mayo*, Memphis 5 64 29 *246*
*Brook Lopez*, New Jersey 2 28 33 *127*
*Russell Westbrook*, Oklahoma City 2 13 24 *73*
*Eric Gordon*, L.A. Clippers - 4 10 *22*
*Kevin Love*, Minnesota - 2 10 *16*
*Michael Beasley*, Miami - 2 1 *7*
*Marc Gasol*, Memphis - 1 1 *4*
*Robin Lopez*, Phoenix - 1 - *3*
*Rudy Fernandez*, Portland - - 3 *3*
*Mario Chalmers*, Miami - - 2 *2*
*Courtney Lee*, Orlando - - 2 *2*
*Nicolas Batum*, Portland - - 1 *1*


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## NewAgeBaller

Kevin Love should have made Top 5 over Eric Gordon. Otherwise, fair enough.


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## Cornholio

Some guy got Brook and Robin mixed up. :laugh:

Who could seriously think Robin Lopez was the 2nd best rookie?


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## bandits1

NewAgeBaller said:


> Kevin Love should have made Top 5 over Eric Gordon. Otherwise, fair enough.


Close one. Love only really came on in the last third of the season. Gordon was kinda up-and-down, but really impressed during those few weeks when everybody on the Clippers was injured. I'd say Gordon > Love by a little bit.


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## GNG

I know the All-Rookie teams. Yes, gloating.


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