# Livingston a pushover?



## shlomo (Dec 8, 2002)

"Peoria (Ill.) Central High School guard Shaun Livingston struggled to bench-press 135 pounds in a predraft camp weightlifting test. ..."

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~90~2209867,00.html

Makes me happy that the Bulls don't need him...


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

This isn't a weightlifting contest. I swear some of you must not have played basketball before.

You don't need to be Mr. Olympia to play PG. 

Benchpress has nothing to do with basketball. Jason Keep shattered the bench press record and he is not even in the league. 

Who cares?


----------



## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> This isn't a weightlifting contest. I swear some of you must not have played basketball before.
> 
> You don't need to be Mr. Olympia to play PG.
> ...


Beat me to it  I actually wish they wouldn't publish things like this, because I think it has very little effect on anything that goes on on the court, but people still get into deep discussions about it like it does.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>shlomo</b>!
> "Peoria (Ill.) Central High School guard Shaun Livingston struggled to bench-press 135 pounds in a predraft camp weightlifting test. ..."
> 
> http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~90~2209867,00.html
> ...


Ya I'm happy we don't need another Magic or Penny..

Instead we have Scott Skiles Jr.

Woohoo,


----------



## shlomo (Dec 8, 2002)

There are 2 responses that come to mind:

1. Why do scouts drool over a prospect with an "NBA ready" body? It's because strength does matter.

2. Why do some players get labelled "injury prone"? In some cases at least, such as with Tyson Chandler's back injury last year, it's because of a lack of muscle strength.

But I admit that with a point guard who doesn't have to post up, strength may not be as important as other skills. Isn't it possible, though, that a 6'7" guard may be expected to post up at times, a la Magic Johnson?

Honestly, I don't know why you would dismiss such a report. When I was 16 years old I could bench press 135 and I'm not an athlete in a contact sport.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>shlomo</b>!
> When I was 16 years old I could bench press 135 and I'm not an athlete in a contact sport.


Which explains why you're making a big deal out of this...

This is not football, he is not a running back or a tight end...

He's a PG...

Tayshaun Prince, Reggie Miller, none of those guys are going to win world's strongest men competition, but who cares, they don't have to...

Livingston can bring the ball up the floor, run an offense, score, play D...

His inabilities to push tanks has nothing to do with that...

He's 6'8 190, buy the time the season starts he'll be at 200-205...

He'll be fine.

This is a non issue, he still will be a lock for a top 5 pick and he was basically confirmed that this week while he was testing this bench press score.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>shlomo</b>!
> There are 2 responses that come to mind:
> 
> 1. Why do scouts drool over a prospect with an "NBA ready" body? It's because strength does matter.
> ...


I could barely lift 100 lbs in HS and I still was a damn good HS player. It doesn't matter. A muscular body doesn't necessarily mean you are great at weightlifting. It could be more bulk than actual muscle. Go to the weightlifting forum and ask some questions. One of my best friends post on this forum and he should be able to tell you. 

TJ Ford did just fine last year without being able to lift. No one is going to be posting up Livingston because he can still block their shot at the PG spot. It's not a problem in this circumstance. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you are knocking him because of his weight then years down the road you will look like a fool when he is a star player. You can put weight on with the right diet and weight training. I'm just glad people are seeing that in Kevin Martin (I wrote the profile for him at Draftcity BTW).


----------



## MiSTa iBN (Jun 16, 2002)

Livingston has the talent, but could've used a year of college to improve his shot selection and his jump shot period. I've always liked his natural ability and he's a better athlete than people think. I think he has the same athleticism Kobe Bryant had when he was in high school, maybe a little less explosive? Anyway, it's gonna take him some time before he gets it going, plus much added weight is needed.


----------



## shlomo (Dec 8, 2002)

Curry weighed 290 as a rookie and all we heard was that he needed more strength, that he was getting pushed around by seasoned NBA vets with NBA bodies.

While Livingston doesn't need to be superman in terms of muscular strength, doesn't that actual bench press figure 135 lbs make you pause, Arenas? At the very least it makes me think how many years away is Livingston from being able to play big minutes.

I know you want the Clippers to draft Livingston at #2, Arenas, so why can't you honestly talk about whether his physical weakness as a rookie will derail plans to play him big minutes his first few years in the league?

Curious what you'll say, Arenas....


----------



## shlomo (Dec 8, 2002)

Hey Hong Kong Phooey, I beat you by 35lbs in HS!!! 

I hear what you're saying but I can't help but think that there is some minimum level of strength needed, and that it is unpredictable how many years it will take to reach it. 

Look.... the knock on Jamal at SG for 3 years was that he was too light and not strong enough...


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

My question is why are you comparing him to Chandler/Curry?

There's a big difference coming in as a guard and coming in as a center....


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I'm going to say this slowly, the biggest question regarding Livingston is whether he can run a pro offense and defend smaller PG's off the bounce. He has the vision and ability, but he has never ran a pro offense before, so it will take some time. 

However, his size is what makes him a plus. He could play next year because at 6'8 (with excellent handles) he can be a legit back-up PG. He is 189 now. By the time the season starts he will be at or around 195-200 lbs. He needs to be no bigger than 210 to play in this league. He is long and lean like Penny Hardaway was, but he will shoot over PG's easily and post them up. 

Again, you are fishing for something wrong, but if his weight is the biggest problem for you, then that shows how fantastic a prospect he really is.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>shlomo</b>!
> Curry weighed 290 as a rookie and all we heard was that he needed more strength, that he was getting pushed around by seasoned NBA vets with NBA bodies.
> 
> While Livingston doesn't need to be superman in terms of muscular strength, doesn't that actual bench press figure 135 lbs make you pause, Arenas? At the very least it makes me think how many years away is Livingston from being able to play big minutes.
> ...


Comparing the pg position to the center position is not just apples to oranges though, it's more like apples to watermelons. 

Somebody like Baron Davis or Marbury is going to abuse Livingston off the bat with strenght, but most NBA point guard do it with quickness.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>shlomo</b>!
> Look.... the knock on Jamal at SG for 3 years was that he was too light and not strong enough...


Ya and obviously Jamal is terrible...

So is Tayshaun Prince, I mean he has a Boozer body too right?


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Crawford is not a SG though. He is a PG.


----------



## shlomo (Dec 8, 2002)

I also compared him to Jamal, who was knocked for being too skinny.

I don't think TJ Ford is a good comparison because that dude is only like 5'11" so he wont' post up.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> Somebody like Baron Davis or Marbury is going to abuse Livingston off the bat with strenght, but most NBA point guard do it with quickness.


Not true DMD. They will beat him with the blow by, but as he learns the NBA defensive game, his height and length will both most PG's. They will have to settle for either long jumpers or basically take him to the rack. 

Neither Davis nor Marbury are true post up PG's. Even Kidd won't be able to post up a man 4 inches taller than him.


----------



## comptons (May 30, 2002)

*Re: Re: Livingston a pushover?*



> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Ya I'm happy we don't need another Magic or Penny..
> ...


Exactly. He's a point guard. And the way Tayshaun Prince handled Artest should of showed people something. Artest tried to use his body every time against Tayshaun, but in the end Tayshaun's length was too much for him. Live would only have to play on the perimeter, where his length would give opposing point guards fits.

I can't believe more people aren't excited about this kid. . .


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

The kid is 6'8 with a near 7'0 wingspan...

All you have to do is teach him to move his feet, if doesn't already know, and he could be an all-defensive player...

He can give guys fits...

What PGs are going to block his shoot or steal his passes?


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Not true DMD. They will beat him with the blow by, but as he learns the NBA defensive game, his height and length will both most PG's. They will have to settle for either long jumpers or basically take him to the rack.
> ...


Nobody is going to post this kid up from the pg position except perhaps occasionally Lebron. As for Davis and Marbury, those guys will not only go around him, but what's unique about those guys is they can bump him and push right through him. 

Tony Parker talks about what a tough matchup Marbury is due to his strenght.

I don't think weight/strenght is going to be a long term problem for Shawn. He already looks much bigger than he did mid season. His lenght will help to make up for his weakness right off the bat. I just think the few strongest pg's in the league will eat him for lunch right off the bat, which is expected.


----------



## shlomo (Dec 8, 2002)

Too bad Livingston didn't play in the tournament. It would be cool to get a look at him and see how well he moved.

I'm not knocking his long-term potential for stardom... but talk about him posting up or penetrating in his first few years is a big stretch of the imagination. And yes strength does have something to do with it.

Since the Bulls need immediate help, I'm glad they don't have a hole at PG to make them consider this kid too seriously.

The 1) strength issue, when added to 2) lack of college ball, and 3) the body weight issue, are too many questions marks. Even if his talent is as great as the scouts say, he needs to address all three of these issues and that will take years.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>shlomo</b>!
> 
> Since the Bulls need immediate help, I'm glad they don't have a hole at PG to make them consider this kid too seriously.


Well at least we agree on one thing. I don't want the Bulls to draft him either. Get him out of Illinois. I was in Peoria, and although I like a lot of those guys, he needs a new environment. 

I am also not the most confident in the Bulls organization right now. It is run very haphazardly from my vantage point. I still don't see any sort of plan developing.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> His lenght will help to make up for his weakness right off the bat. I just think the few strongest pg's in the league will eat him for lunch right off the bat, which is expected.


The PG we have now was eaten for lunch, more often than not this past season....

Is that the deterrent for being interested in Livingston?


----------



## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

you guys act like the guy isn't going to be able to improve his strength.... I've gained 12 pounds in 35 days, not all of it muscle of course, but I can tell I've definetely gotten stronger... if I can do it there is no way top NBA prospect Shaun Livingston WON'T be able to gain more and at a faster pace.... geez guys give him a break...


----------



## shlomo (Dec 8, 2002)

One thing about him... I do like the 'fro. It will be tough for opposing PG's to shoot over that.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> The PG we have now was eaten for lunch, more often than not this past season....
> ...


Kirk Hinrich will end up an above average defender. 

I just think we have such an area of need at swingman. But if Paxson thinks Shawn will be the best player in the draft, he should take him at 3. Kirk has good value now, I think.

We both know that's not going to happen though.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Kirk Hinrich will end up an above average defender.
> ...


That's the problem I have....

You're a 23 win team, no one should be a lock at any position...

You look at Detroit and they don't even have "locks", they could very well send off Rip this offseason to Orlando for T-Mac....


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>shlomo</b>!
> One thing about him... I do like the 'fro. It will be tough for opposing PG's to shoot over that.












Ya nice fro...

I mean, oops, braids....


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Funny tidbit: 

My senior year at Bradley I was performing in Jesus Christ Superstar and Livingston was there in the front row, looking like a tall gangly kid. 

I was thinking future NBAer Shaun Livingston at a musical watching me singing and ****. :laugh:


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Funny tidbit:
> 
> My senior year at Bradley I was performing in Jesus Christ Superstar and Livingston was there in the front row, looking like a tall gangly kid.
> ...


Funny story, but ugh, Andrew Lloyd Webber, don't get me started.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Funny story, but ugh, Andrew Lloyd Webber, don't get me started.


Dude I hate musicals personally, but it was fun and chicks seem to love theatre guys, although I think it might be because our department was a little festive. (I'm not BTW)


----------



## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Dude I hate musicals personally, but it was fun and chicks seem to love theatre guys, although I think it might be because our department was a little festive. (I'm not BTW)


lol, little festive :laugh:


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Dude I hate musicals personally, but it was fun and chicks seem to love theatre guys, although I think it might be because our department was a little festive. (I'm not BTW)


Funny, I always thought your avatars were an overblown attempt to mask your homosexuality!

:laugh: 

I keed, I keed!


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Funny, I always thought your avatars were an overblown attempt to mask your homosexuality!
> ...


Now that's not nice. :sigh: DMD :rocket:


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>shlomo</b>!
> "Peoria (Ill.) Central High School guard Shaun Livingston struggled to bench-press 135 pounds in a predraft camp weightlifting test. ..."
> 
> http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~90~2209867,00.html
> ...


So how many times would he have had to lifted to get you to want him? 5? 10? 15? 

Bench pressing means nothing.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Now that's not nice. :sigh: DMD :rocket:


Oh, come on man, you know I love you HKF. 

I mean, not in THAT way.

We all know you like the ladies. And we thank you for your avatars often.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh, come on man, you know I love you HKF.
> ...


:twave: Hop on the train. :grinning:


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

*Re: Re: Livingston a pushover?*



> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> 
> 
> So how many times would he have had to lifted to get you to want him? 5? 10? 15?
> ...


MemphisX your posts are the ****...

You come on the board slam and leave...

I love it.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> :twave: Hop on the train. :grinning:


Speaking of which, nicely done again with the quick avatar switch. Just how many ladies do you have ready and waiting?

Dah, I'm getting restless! Give me some athletic testing results for the lottery guys besides Livingston's anti bench press!


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Speaking of which, nicely done again with the quick avatar switch. Just how many ladies do you have ready and waiting?
> ...


I had a lot but I chose to delete them. I am currently stuck on this one fine female (avatar before this one) and I would switch to her multiple times, but I won't don't want to look infatuated (which I totally am). She is (to me) the most beautiful woman I have ever seen.


----------



## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

At that weight and strength, Livingston will get hammered in the pick-and-roll game early on and he might not be able to finish strong around NBA big men, but otherwise I think this is pretty much a non-issue. Moving your feet in space is more important for PGs than muscular bulk, though having both isn't a bad thing. And the guy's only 18. He has plenty of time to chisel his body, and he's already started that process with nice results. I wish Tyson could fill out his body as much as Livingston is already starting to do. (it's not all Tyson's fault, but still)

also HKF, you went to Bradley? Did you happen to know Aba Koita by any chance? He was the nicest guy you'll ever meet back in high school.


----------



## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

Bench presses really don't mean that much in basketball (or any sport for that matter), and even less for point guards, so I really don't see it as a big deal. However, I imagine Shawn probably will have some strength issues his first few years in the league, but nothing that won't be able to overcome with some work, which he is apparently willing to do. 

Even though I still have some doubts about how good he'll be, something like this really isn't a cause for concern.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> 
> also HKF, you went to Bradley? Did you happen to know Aba Koita by any chance? He was the nicest guy you'll ever meet back in high school.


Yes I did know Aba. He was a nice guy, but for some reason as a senior he thought he was a playa. Maybe it was the heavy thick African accent. One thing about Bradley is that they pamper the athletes with sorority girls and gifts even if the team stinks (that's all we got). A private school with a bunch of rich kids. 

Some of these guys after they are pampered in college, give off the allusion to be nicer than they are. I nearly had a fight at a bar with one 7'0 scrub named Jeff Rabey (out of Michigan).


----------



## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes I did know Aba. He was a nice guy, but for some reason as a senior he thought he was a playa. Maybe it was the heavy thick African accent. One thing about Bradley is that they pamper the athletes with sorority girls and gifts even if the team stinks (that's all we got). A private school with a bunch of rich kids.
> ...


that's hilarious. I can barely imagine Aba acting like that. He was shy and unassuming to a fault in high school. He almost seemed embarrassed by the fact that he was the tallest guy in the school and one of its best basketball players. He was also hilarious because on that particular team he was the only guy who could dunk in game situations, and whenever he did the crowd would go nuts, so a bunch of times after the whistle he would take a few steps toward the basket like he was going to dunk it and then stop.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> so a bunch of times after the whistle he would take a few steps toward the basket like he was going to dunk it and then stop.


Unfortunately he did that a few times at Bradley, only that led to travelling being called. :sigh:


----------



## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Unfortunately he did that a few times at Bradley, only that led to travelling being called. :sigh:


the refs called traveling on him after the whistle? they must have been out to get him!


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> 
> 
> the refs called traveling on him after the whistle? they must have been out to get him!


No he did them during game action, which led to travelling.


----------

