# Jose vs TJ Ford



## DWADE4 (Aug 18, 2006)

I don't understand all the hype surrounding Jose Calderon. Yes he is a decent point guard but people here are already been naming him an All-star since last year. 

If you compare Jose's and TJ's stats this year, TJ is clearly playing like the better point-guard. 

TJ Ford:
17.1 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 6.4 apg, 1.1 spg, and is shooting 0.479% from the field, 0.893 from the free throw line and 0.417 from three. In only 34.7mpg

Now Jose Calderon:
13.5 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 9.0 apg, 0.6 spg, and is shooting 0.450% from the field, 1.000 from the free throw line and 0.407 from three. And is playing more minutes then TJ. Until yesterdays game vs Philly Jose was averaging close to 39mpg!!!

For a player to play 38+ I don't think Jose is living up to expectations he is just having a decent season. He doesn't perform great against starting point guards and cant play under pressure so far in the season. (BOS, ATL games being the main ones)


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

can't even compare Tj the 2nd option on that team after granger its his job to score in indy, Jose role here completely different almost the oppisite


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

I'm actually surprised that TJ is shooting better from 3 than Jose but for 5 minutes more a game, Jose brings in almost 3 more assists.

We don't need a chucker that disrupts the offense. We need somebody that will control the tempo and not run into the trees uncontrolably.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

The thing with TJ is everytime he falls down theres a chance he'll be out for quite some time.

Talent wise TJ is on par or better than Jose and if he stays healthy it will not surprise me that TJ put up better numbers than Jose.

For our current team I also feel that TJ would fit in better because he gives us the speed/athleticism we lack. However, as mentioned, his injury concerns makes him unfit to be our franchise point guard.


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## lucc19 (Feb 24, 2005)

dwade4, ur right man... i've been saying it for so long, the thing with raptors fans. they get on someones dick they make him seem better then he is, TJ is the better player, Jose is good... but nothing great. now he is gone... in 5 years we will look back and see TJ was the better player.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Lets wait and see after 20-25 games what the numbers look like. I will put money on TJ not shooting over 40% from tree all year.


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

Numbers don't mean anything.
Calderon is a pass first point guard with a solid jump shot (he's just been in a slump since his ridiculous hot start) in the mold of the Stocktons and Nashs.
TJ is a shoot first, drive and kick out, point guard in the mold of the Iversons and less successful point guard mentality/class.

We wanted a player like Calderon. We always liked TJ and think of him as a terrific talent, but whether or not he gets you the W in a cohesive consistent manner is debatable.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Nothing has changed: Jose still >> TJ.


yours truly,
Raptors' Fan


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

not buying into the comparisons or whos better

i ALWAYS was indifferent to choose sides, i like TJ's game just as much as JC's.

they are completey different & i like alot about both. TJ is playing triple-double threat basketball, & delivering, but we'll see how long that lasts. he is allowed to dominate the ball in Indiana, he doesnt have to run through a Chris Bosh, and Granger plays off TJ, so you got to expect this

only thing i ever wonder is.... what if we traded Jose instead, i wonder what kind of return we could have got, as compared to the JO trade or other offers in the off-season we heard about.


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## Onions Baby (Mar 12, 2007)

lmao at TJ dickriding already, knew this was going to happen no matter how good Jose played.

Calderon is way better than Ford, it was proven last year and he's proving it this year. We've only played 8 games and Calderon's numbers took a bigger hit than they should've because he only played 25 minutes on one leg yesterday.

Calderon's a much better jump shooter, a much better passer, better floor general, just not the isolation player that TJ is.


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

DWADE4 said:


> *I don't understand all the hype surrounding Jose Calderon.* Yes he is a decent point guard but people here are already been naming him an All-star since last year.


Then you don't understand basketball.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

TJ could use some of Jose's poise and control and court generalship. Jose could use some of TJ's aggressive scoring instincts at times.

Raps would be best with Jose for 30 and and TJ for 18 but that would never work. What did we average at PG when both played healthy? Something like 25 and 17 I am guessing. We were never going to match that with just one of them here and just a decent backup.

My big problem with TJ was that he took more shots than anyone else and played out of control. Jose was clearly the better fit. And from a contract point of view BC would be in a tough spot guaranteeing a big new contract to TJ with likely no insurance after what we went through with him here.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

I always thought that we couldve gotten more from a deal involving Jose that would address our needs inside and outside than a deal with TJ. A deal I liked to throw around was Jose for Rudy Fernandez and Przybilla - I guess it would have been a really good deal for us. But whats done is done.


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## DWADE4 (Aug 18, 2006)

Onions said:


> Calderon is way better than Ford, it was proven last year and he's proving it this year. We've only played 8 games and Calderon's numbers took a bigger hit than they should've because he only played 25 minutes on one leg yesterday.



Even prior to that game vs philly, TJ was putting up better numbers then Jose. Jose was avg close to 39mpg. 
No one is doubting Jose's talent, but I just think how people around here naming him an all-star already is ridiculous. He is a decent PG and I will say it again he can not perform against tough competition at the PG spot.


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## toprofx (Jan 13, 2007)

its not about numbers when u look at the pg position. its about the teams numbers. jose makes the players around him better, tj is a chucker who can't run an offense. 

it'd be interesting to compare bosh's numbers while playing with tj vs jose. then u'll see who is the better pg. i don't want my pg putting up 30 pts a game with jo and bosh on my team. i do want him to have 10+ assists tho.

the thing with jose is he knows when he needs to score (which he has proven with 25pt games) and when to pass. thats what u need in a good pg. tj sucks.

if u don't know why, its really hard to explain. we'd have to go back to basics and start with what traveling means.


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

Hate to say I told you so.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

BDB said:


> Hate to say I told you so.


Seeing as this is your first post in this thread, what did you tell us?

If it is that Jose took a game off, big deal, if it is that TJ has had a decent start numbers wise, what does that mean?


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

I said it on this forum when TJ Ford was still on the team and a majority of your fanbase believed Calderon was better.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

BDB said:


> I said it on this forum when TJ Ford was still on the team and a majority of your fanbase believed Calderon was better.


and the majority of our fanbase as well as fans around the league still feel that way.

You should save your "I told you so" after TJ proves himself to be better. 10 or so games into the season even if TJ put up some spectacular numbers (Which he hasn't) it is still *way* too early to tell.


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

And you and everyone else is dead wrong the numbers prove it. 
You're right TJ hasn't put up spectacular numbers Devin Harris has but that's another argument.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

BDB said:


> And you and everyone else is dead wrong the numbers prove it.
> You're right TJ hasn't put up spectacular numbers Devin Harris has but that's another argument.


The *numbers* after 10 or so games in which he hasn't put up spectacular numbers proves it?

What does Devin Harris have anything to do with this thread?

I don't know if you're even trying to make sense but right now you're far from making any of it. Try again.


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> The *numbers* after 10 or so games in which he hasn't put up spectacular numbers proves it?
> 
> What does Devin Harris have anything to do with this thread?
> 
> I don't know if you're even trying to make sense but right now you're far from making any of it. Try again.


Don't be so stubborn what does spectacular numbers have to do with abything? Jose vs Ford TJ has better numbers how hard is that to admit? 

Just a better point then both that's all.

BTW how's the backup point guard doing?:lol:


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Admit what? It's only 10 games, what part of that aren't you getting? You don't evaluate a player after 10 games not to mention he isn't putting up spectacular numbers. If he's putting up 25 and 10 then perhaps people would jump the gun and say the he's the better player, but 15 and 6? Are you serious? We watched Ford for 2 years, we know what we gave up, get this into your thick skull.

And as for our backup point guard it has become a weak position for us, it is too bad that we gave Ford away for free....wait, we didn't? Who did we get? What, he put up 16/17, 16/10, 11/18, 19/11, 23/11 in his *last 5 games*. Well those are allstar numbers for a center ain't it? I don't know about you, but I'd take a double double center over a backup point guard every day of the week and twice on the weekends. If you want to talk about a bad trade, how's *Yi Jian Lian* working out for you guys. Since his real age is like 28 he should be hitting his prime in about a year or 2, so I guess you guys are going to be real contenders soon. You guys got a real Malone/Stockton duo going there with Yi and Harris.


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

Admit Ford is playing better that's all. 
You had Ford for 2 years and don't understand he has the speed to break down defenses. That's why he's better.

You have Jermain Oneal and the defense is still weak, Anthony Parker isn't producing the same. 

The Yi trade got them decent talent while getting rid of RJ's huge contract. The Nets are deeper going to the future.

And the combo is Devin Harris and VC.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

BDB said:


> Admit Ford is playing better that's all.
> You had Ford for 2 years and don't understand he has the speed to break down defenses. That's why he's better.
> 
> You have Jermain Oneal and the defense is still weak, Anthony Parker isn't producing the same.
> ...


The Nets are heading towards 3 straight years of 30-35 wins, you can mark my words.

The Yi trade to shrink salary made sense if they didn't overpay VC the year before. Now they are stuck in the middle of nowhere going to mediocre land. And what kind of talent are you talking about? *Yi was the talent*. You guys got Bobby freaking Simmons along with him and that was it. Right now Yi looks like the exact same player as Bargnani and the worst part is Bargnani's game looks better than Yi. Bargnani is already a long shot of being anything more than a role player so good luck to you guys.

Yeah, Jermaine O'neal's defense was real weak. I'd laugh at you for talking without watching games but I understand you have no time to watch us as you cannot afford to miss the epic that is the Net's 30 win season. Just go troll elsewhere, or at least come up with something that's actually interesting.


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> The Nets are heading towards 3 straight years of 30-35 wins, you can mark my words.
> 
> The Yi trade to shrink salary made sense if they didn't overpay VC the year before. Now they are stuck in the middle of nowhere going to mediocre land. And what kind of talent are you talking about? *Yi was the talent*. You guys got Bobby freaking Simmons along with him and that was it. Right now Yi looks like the exact same player as Bargnani and the worst part is Bargnani's game looks better than Yi. Bargnani is already a long shot of being anything more than a role player so good luck to you guys.
> 
> Yeah, Jermaine O'neal's defense was real weak. I'd laugh at you for talking without watching games but I understand you have no time to watch us as you cannot afford to miss the epic that is the Net's 30 win season. Just go troll elsewhere, or at least come up with something that's actually interesting.


How do you figure? The team was horrendous last year and had no cap flexibility they had to do something. 

Yi's a second year player and can dribble as a 7 footer thus he has tons of room for improvement. He's a better defender than Bargs and is starting at power forward. Toronto was hoping Bargs would be the next Dirk but he looks like the first international #1 bust.

Jermain's defense is good the team defense is weak.
Proving you wrong good times.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

BDB said:


> How do you figure? The team was horrendous last year and had no cap flexibility they had to do something.
> 
> Yi's a second year player and can dribble as a 7 footer thus he has tons of room for improvement. He's a better defender than Bargs and is starting at power forward. Toronto was hoping Bargs would be the next Dirk but he looks like the first international #1 bust.
> 
> ...


They had no cap flexibility because they signed VC to over 13 mil a year. The truth was the Nets thought they had one more run in them with Kidd/VC/RJ and had to bail halfway because it wasn't working. This kind of short term thinking works for nobody and right now they're just banking on signing one of the big name FAs in 2010, good luck to them, seriously.

Yi is also like 28 years old. If he is really 21, then he has been playing professional ball since like he was 13, does that sound believable to you? And no, he is not better than Bargnani, as bad as that sounds. He is only starting because Yi probably has some sort of clause in his contract that guarantees him to start. Just like how he started that many games when he was with the Bucks eventhough he stunk up the joint.

And the Raptors perimeter defense is weak and has been weak for a long time because we have no real starting sg/sf talent. However, by trading Ford and getting O'neal our interior defense has gotten a lot better and our rebounding has improved tremendously. I don't know where you proved me wrong, but then again you haven't been proving anything in this thread.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

TJ Ford 5.8 assists to 2.2 t/o per game. great starters numbers :-/

Jose 8.8 assists to 1.67 t/o per game.....I will take that any day, not to mention the better fg% and ft%.....and we all know by the end of the season Jose will be way ahead in 3point% as well.


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## toprofx (Jan 13, 2007)

don't forget jose isn't a chucker. and when he dirbbles, he is under control. not about numbers at the pg position, its about making the team better.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Since when does stats = playing better?

TJ's problem has never been about stats, even when he was here. He was always averaging good ast numbers here but the problem is that he ****s up the flow of the offense. The bottom line is that the TEAM played better with Jose on the floor. Not TJ.


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> They had no cap flexibility because they signed VC to over 13 mil a year. The truth was the Nets thought they had one more run in them with Kidd/VC/RJ and had to bail halfway because it wasn't working. This kind of short term thinking works for nobody and right now they're just banking on signing one of the big name FAs in 2010, good luck to them, seriously.
> 
> Yi is also like 28 years old. If he is really 21, then he has been playing professional ball since like he was 13, does that sound believable to you? And no, he is not better than Bargnani, as bad as that sounds. He is only starting because Yi probably has some sort of clause in his contract that guarantees him to start. Just like how he started that many games when he was with the Bucks eventhough he stunk up the joint.
> 
> And the Raptors perimeter defense is weak and has been weak for a long time because we have no real starting sg/sf talent. However, by trading Ford and getting O'neal our interior defense has gotten a lot better and our rebounding has improved tremendously. I don't know where you proved me wrong, but then again you haven't been proving anything in this thread.


Actually the owner gave Vince Carter a contract believing he brought in fans when really it was promotion. The result was Kidd wanting out and RJ being traded. Turned out for the better that team had bottomed out.

Yeah I do believe he played pro at 13 it's a different world in China bc of communism. That and they're way behind in basketball over there.
This isn't getting anywhere let's agree to disagree even tho the stats are in my favor.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

BDB said:


> Actually the owner gave Vince Carter a contract believing he brought in fans when really it was promotion. The result was Kidd wanting out and RJ being traded. Turned out for the better that team had bottomed out.
> 
> Yeah I do believe he played pro at 13 it's a different world in China bc of communism. That and they're way behind in basketball over there.
> *This isn't getting anywhere let's agree to disagree even tho the stats are in my favor.*


Please use your stats to explain the assist to turnovers and the fg percentages.....if these "stats" are so in your favour.


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

It's your team if your sold on Calderon so be it. I just like TJ.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

BDB said:


> Yeah I do believe he played pro at 13 it's a different world in China bc of communism. That and they're way behind in basketball over there.


:lol:

Yeah, communism makes kids grow faster and allows them to compete against players *much older than them*. We're talking about grade 7-8 kids against grown men. I'm not sure if communism has the power to do that, but I know stupidity is causing you to make all these hilarious statements.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

BDB said:


> Actually the owner gave Vince Carter a contract believing he brought in fans when really it was promotion. The result was Kidd wanting out and RJ being traded. Turned out for the better that team had bottomed out.


Yeah, VC is really bringing fans in by leading a group of underachieves to a 30 win season. The team would've been a lot better if they just let VC walk and rebuild instead of making a 60 million detour. As I said, they are just waiting for 2010. If they can pull a Danny Ainge and get a superstar then great, if not, prepare yourself for another 5 years of atrocious basketball.


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> :lol:
> 
> Yeah, communism makes kids grow faster and allows them to compete against players *much older than them*. We're talking about grade 7-8 kids against grown men. I'm not sure if communism has the power to do that, but I know stupidity is causing you to make all these hilarious statements.


How it works in communist countries is they decide what you're going to be at an early age. They might not even have a bunch of different leagues considering how underdeveloped their basketball programs are.

*Yeah, VC is really bringing fans in by leading a group of underachieves to a 30 win season. The team would've been a lot better if they just let VC walk and rebuild instead of making a 60 million detour. As I said, they are just waiting for 2010. If they can pull a Danny Ainge and get a superstar then great, if not, prepare yourself for another 5years of atrocious basketball.*

What can I say the owner doesn't know what he's doing.
I don't think so Kidd's done and RJ isn't as good as I thought now that he's gone.
Much happier with Devin Harris and the direction this team is going.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

BDB said:


> How it works in communist countries is they decide what you're going to be at an early age. They might not even have a bunch of different leagues considering how underdeveloped their basketball programs are.


Yes, they're developing a 13 year old by putting him against grown men in a pro-league. You should keep this up, it's getting quite entertaining. And no, go look it up, that's not how the Chinese professional basketball league (One of the more competitive ones in Asia) function. There are no grade 8s in there and it's an absurd idea to even suggest it.

The more logical scenario is China lied about Yi's age. They've done it many times before in other sports and this one is all but certainly fake. I guess the only way to convince you is when his body starts breaking down by the time he's close to 30.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

with TJ gone, i was expecting jose to up his scoring a little more than he has (around 16 ppg). at least he's getting a lot more assists this season though.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

BDB said:


> How it works in communist countries is they decide what you're going to be at an early age. They might not even have a bunch of different leagues considering how underdeveloped their basketball programs are.
> 
> *Yeah, VC is really bringing fans in by leading a group of underachieves to a 30 win season. The team would've been a lot better if they just let VC walk and rebuild instead of making a 60 million detour. As I said, they are just waiting for 2010. If they can pull a Danny Ainge and get a superstar then great, if not, prepare yourself for another 5years of atrocious basketball.*
> 
> ...


You know it seems you just came in here to derail the thread with all this Nets trade versus Raptors trade talks. That's irrelevant to the whole topic at hand. You also keep saying the stats say you're winning on this TJ vs Jose thing, but have yet to actually back that up by discussing it. If you believe TJ is better, make a case.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

How exactly are the stats helping you anyways?

Jose Calderon - 13.2 ppg/3.1 rpg/9.5 apg/2.0 topg/44.5 FG%/38.3 3P%/100 FT%

TJ Ford - 14.6 ppg/4.8 rpg/5.3 apg/2.13 topg/41.0 FG%/37.9 3P%/90.0 FT%

What about that says TJ is better? It seems just from the numbers alone Jose is a better point guard. He shoots more efficiently and he gets more assists on less turnovers. What about all that makes TJ better?


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## DWADE4 (Aug 18, 2006)

Where was you when I first posted this thread and compared both of the PG's stats. TJ owned Jose in less minutes, IN all major categories. Anyways that's irreverent now. The main thing is that Jose CAN NOT keep up with starting PG's in the NBA where as TJ can. Jose struggles mightily against almost every decent competition at the PG spot. With Jermaine out, Jose's numbers should have went up but they didn't. 

Even with Jermaine O'neal, and Jose being the starter, he should be putting up better scoring numbers. Its a FACT that he struggles with other decent PG competition, if you Jose lovers can not see that then there's only two words to describe you all - d**k riders. 

The only reason this thread was started because it was getting annoying that people here were already naming Jose an All-star and praising his game so much, when in contrast, to the minutes hes getting is very sub par performance. 

Another thing, Jose can not guard any guard out in the perimeter, he gets scored on at ease. Now you Jose lovers can start screaming at your computers while you reply. eace:


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

DWADE4 said:


> Where was you when I first posted this thread and compared both of the PG's stats. TJ owned Jose in less minutes, IN all major categories. Anyways that's irreverent now. The main thing is that Jose CAN NOT keep up with starting PG's in the NBA where as TJ can. Jose struggles mightily against almost every decent competition at the PG spot. With Jermaine out, Jose's numbers should have went up but they didn't.
> 
> Even with Jermaine O'neal, and Jose being the starter, he should be putting up better scoring numbers. Its a FACT that he struggles with other decent PG competition, if you Jose lovers can not see that then there's only two words to describe you all - d**k riders.
> 
> ...


I was there when you were talking about Ford's stats....and I said give it more than a few games and you will see Ford's numbers start to fall.....and they have. Jose has been playing on a lame hamstring and still is out playing Ford....you can talk all you want about Jose's defense but he is no where near the worst defending starting point guard in the league.....and don't forget about that other point guard who everyone says can't play "D", last time I checked he has 2 MVP's......Jose is not Nash, but he is still better than TJ.

So why don't you go suck some balls now yourself!


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## DWADE4 (Aug 18, 2006)

billfindlay10 said:


> I was there when you were talking about Ford's stats....and I said give it more than a few games and you will see Ford's numbers start to fall.....and they have. Jose has been playing on a lame hamstring and still is out playing Ford....you can talk all you want about Jose's defense but he is no where near the worst defending starting point guard in the league.....and don't forget about that other point guard who everyone says can't play "D", last time I checked he has 2 MVP's......Jose is not Nash, but he is still better than TJ.



I agree with you that Nash can not play "D" but the other parts of his game makes up for that flaw. Now I'm not bashing on Jose, I still think he is a terrific player. 
The only thing I was emphasing on was that, Jose can not keep up with good quality NBA PG's and he struggles him self when matched up against them. 

Before you go and start judging my opinion, I want to tell you something. I work for the Toronto Raptors in the Basketball Operations department. And I see Jose up close in practice more then what you see in games. I know for a fact he is a GREAT player when it comes to practice, even with the injury he has, but look at the competition he goes up against - Roko and Solomon. Then when the real game time comes he struggles against good starting point guards. 
In practice he looks like John Stockton the 2nd and plays with great intensity and is very vocal. So I do like Jose as a player but I will still say when it comes to playing against other NBA PG's TJ is more confident and reliable. Maybe its just a fact that this is his 1st season as a starter and will become better in those terms.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

LOL @ you seeing Jose up close in practice but still thinks that TJ is better. Either you need thicker glasses or thank god you work in the ops department and not scouting.


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## DWADE4 (Aug 18, 2006)

Dee-Zy said:


> LOL @ you seeing Jose up close in practice but still thinks that TJ is better. Either you need thicker glasses or thank god you work in the ops department and not scouting.


OK, you clearly missed the point. I said Jose plays great in practice even with that injury of his, but look at the competition he goes up against in practice, Roko and solomon. 

Then when the real game comes it doesn't translate into the court when playing against the starting PG's of this league, where as TJ can keep his own.


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## Tri$tateTx (Oct 4, 2008)

DWADE4 said:


> I don't understand all the hype surrounding Jose Calderon. Yes he is a decent point guard but people here are already been naming him an All-star since last year.
> 
> If you compare Jose's and TJ's stats this year, TJ is clearly playing like the better point-guard.
> 
> ...



great point, I'm so glad TJ is out of Toronto...Now if only they will be dumb enough to trade Bosh & my days of Raptor basketball watching is over....unless VC is in town! :lol:


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i don't think many have been calling jose calderon an all-star. quite frankly, i feel that has always been a game driven by the media. with this team, the results have been so poor for so long that the media and coverage teams are forced to uncover a silver lining, usually in the form of stats because you can always find numbers to draw any conclusion you want, to corroborate your thesis, whether they're relevant or not. jose has some eye-popping stats (a/to for one, ft% for another) and if you're looking to praise someone on the team, he's a prime candidate because his numbers make it easy. 

but i don't think anyone truly feels he's worthy of an all-star nod. and if he continues showing a reluctance to take the ball to the rim (as he has since march of this year, imo) you'll find even fewer fans.

jose is, imo, a symptom of the problem. i don't know what has happened to this man. he's better than this. where is the fear rooted? when did this guy become so passive and perimeter-oriented? since when has he been so scared to finish on his strong side, let alone his weak side? 

what's more, the team's fast breaks are absolutely non-existent. it's like they're not playing basketball and if you're not doing that, you're not having fun, and if you're not having fun, you'll see teams like the one we've seen over the past 12-18 months. he'll lead them out on the break, see an advantage in numbers, and proceed to pull it out and run the halfcourt- as if this team's halfcourt set is any more effective. 

personally, i'm not interested in watching them in the halfcourt anymore- it's boring and it leads to this constant struggle for points, encourages more jumpshooting and rips an identity from the team. it's painful. and it's so not them- it's not sam mitchell, it's not chris bosh, and certainly not jose calderon. it's paralysis personified.

this is a big issue. but i feel one thing jose can do is take the ball to the net in the open floor- even if it means getting swatted like a fly by whatever opponent is in front of him. he's got to set the example because the ball is usually in his hands.

(and re: tj, let's just see if the guy can stay healthy. it's easy to love him when he's not injured- the problem is that he's so often injured. that is why he was dealt... and thankfully, too. his injuries gave the excuse-happy raptors an easy excuse to avoid looking in the mirror. and he was always hurt so they'd _never_ look in the mirror. the problems we're seeing now are not new, and would have been identified long ago had tj's injuries not stood in the way. the symptoms have been there since at least last december, if not earlier. )

peace


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

In my opinion stats are black & white if they're as close as TJ's and Calderon's are it's hard to use them in a debate.
I haven't seen much of TJ in Indy what I do know a little about is your team.

Kenny Smith was on NBA TV and said "speed kills". He also chuckled at the thought of Jose being one of the top point guards in the league, and said he didn't think the team was much better than what they were producing on the court. 
It's very early in the season with 2 new starters and a new coach. I truly hope they turn it around and are a good team makes the division/conference stronger.

Calderon is what he is good three point percentage, people were raving about how he didn't turn the ball over last season off the bench. He was great last year; a contract year by the way; he's a so so starting point guard now.

His production could be bc of an injury he has.....
It could have been because of Sam Mitchell....
It could be because of Jermain O'neal etc.

I don't believe the team is better than it was last season not bc Kenny Smith said as much but bc it's true.
A playoff team 2 years in a row; who I was rooting for; is now below .500, and just fired the coach. Doesn't look good "The proof is in the pudding"

As I've said before the Raptors were "a problem" with TJ & Calderon. I saw them 2 years ago agaibst my NETS that's when I had to respect TJ's game. Excuse me if I'm not a believer in Jose he'll have to prove me wrong.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

Raps playing an uptempo style (at least from the look of it against the Jazz). Sure would be nice to have TJ playing for us right now since thats the style of game he excels at...


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

We would not be any happier with TJ playing and lousy backups. The two together made for an unbelievable combination and the ability to swap minutes based on who was playing better gave the Raps a huge advantage over every opponent.

I said last year, when it was unclear who would be traded, that whoever was left would be in a bad situation and take a lot of abuse from fans. Neither is a real star. Jose clearly outplayed TJ in Toronto and obviously both Sam and BC saw it that way. What happens after is irrelevant to the decision we had to make at the time.

PG is not a huge advantage for us anymore. We are sold there, but without 2 starting caliber PGs our biggest advantage is lost.


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