# What the hell was Chandler doing?



## Chops (May 30, 2002)

He was just standing around!?!


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## Future (Jul 24, 2002)

Chandler doesn't even belong in this game. This game is for offensive showcase, and Chandler has no offense. He ain't even playing just a little D. 

Embarassing

Jay Will is putting on a show though. I like


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

Methinks someone partook of the Atlanta night-life a little too much last night! Can anyone say Buckhead or The Gold Club?


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Chandler is playing horrible, but Williams is putting on a SHOW!:yes:


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

If he just runs the floor he could get a lot of lobs. Damn, I wish he wasn't playing because he is not representing very well.


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## Future (Jul 24, 2002)

How about this Atlanta crowd. It looks like they purposely darkened the crowd to not make the empty seats that noticable. 

Go to a real city... Atlanta is terrible

Is the All-Star game tomorrow sold out?


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Future</b>!
> How about this Atlanta crowd. It looks like they purposely darkened the crowd to not make the empty seats that noticable.
> 
> Go to a real city... Atlanta is terrible
> ...


I agree. Bring it back to Chicago.


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## RayMond Felton (Jan 25, 2003)

*What is Chandler doing???*

Chandler is playing SO lazy, Amare is doing him ugly....AGAIN. You would think Chandler would play like he is glad to be there, but he just doesnt care. He should be trying to make a name for himself, instead he is embassing himself and the Bulls. Jay is thriving without the triangle, he just looks so much better in an open offensive. I know this game hardly resembles a real game, but he does look better. Tyson looks asleep, he doesnt belong in this game IMO.


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## max6216 (Nov 27, 2002)

what the hell can i say .i was hoping top see more from chandler.but damn.after today i don't know if he should be on TNT or on VH1 with the rest of the divas.


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## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

Banging a dozen divas take a lot out of your legs. This is probably the reason why he can't even run. It's not like he doesn't want to run, it's that he can't run. Jay Will is getting school again by Arenas. What an embarrassment!


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

*Rookie/Sophomore Challenge*

With all the rookies looking like they're playing for themselves, Jay (The PA kept on saying Jason.) Williams was the only player on the team that was looking to make the great pass, much like Tinsley and Parker. Williams had 9 points and 9 assists.

The obvious ball hog of the game was Caron Butler, who, despite having 7 assists (most were alley-oop, "You can dunk" passes), would rarely give up the ball. Dajuan Wagner and Carlos Boozer came a close 2nd in the ball hog awards.

Even though this game was just a funfest lacking defense, it should show Cartwright and Krause that they should let Jay run free.


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## max6216 (Nov 27, 2002)

lets just hope he doesn't bang his way out the league. or we can chalk it up to one of krause's many blunders.


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## RayMond Felton (Jan 25, 2003)

How many points did he have, 4? When your team scores 139 ( or whatever it was) you would think double figures would be an afterthought. I am to the point where a "Tyson is a bust" thread doesnt sound so strange. I think he will develop into a solid, soft, defense only player. A future All-Star he MAY be, but don't count on it. He has a great personality, looks, height, athletic ablitiy, but the desire of an 8th grade girls right fielder. 

What is his deal anyways? He was more worried about giving opposing players a tap on the *** smileing at them, saying "Man...nice dunk Amare" or "Can I please be in your poster Caron?". He pisses me off! Quit being such a ***** and EARN BC's time instead of all us wondering why he's not playing more.


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## max6216 (Nov 27, 2002)

AAAAAAAAAAAAND NOW AT CENTER FROM DOMINGEUZ HIGH NUMBER 3 CEEELINE DIIION.............


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tri_N</b>!
> Banging a dozen divas take a lot out of your legs. This is probably the reason why he can't even run. It's not like he doesn't want to run, it's that he can't run. Jay Will is getting school again by Arenas. What an embarrassment!


I disagree

Arenas , got hot in the last 10 - 15 minutes hitting like 4 three pointers in a row

The play where he tried to drive on Jay and Jay picked it up and shut him off and forced him back out - Arenas hit from a couple of feet from beyond the three point line . You give a guy a shot like that in these games and he hit another long long range shot similar I think a short time later

Anyway Arenas and JRich tended to hog it up a bit and pretty well hijacked a lot of the Sophs efforts I think to make personal statements about themselves.

Gil didn't school Jay at all - if anything it was amusing watch Gil trying to seal off Jay's drives in the last 5 minutes when the pace picked up a bit and they were making more of an effort . Jay just flat out abused him and left him standing - he could drive past him or anyone at will

Jay went 4 for 11 I think with 7 of his shots coming in the last 18 minutes of the game. He seemed to be throwing it around for everyone else first before looking for his own offense which is consistent to the true point guard role he is trying to be faithfull to this season

I was great to see Jay beating anyone he wanted off the dribble drive and creating - loved that sick oop he threw to Caron. In fact , Jay could have easily had 15 or so assists on around half a dozen pretty easy shots/lay ups that just weren't finished with lazy execution or fumbled dishes

He showed me a bunch today to reaffirm what I see in him and how he is being manhandled in our system


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## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

Krause needs to be slapped and fired for passing on Richardson 2 times and Gilbert Arenas 3 FREAKING times. For the second rounder at that year, I thought Krause was going to pick Arenas because he was a sure first rounder that year. I don't know what happened but my first impression of the Hassel pick was, "Who the is this chump?" Thanks for making my prediction right, Krause.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

With Jays speed. There is no reason why we cant run more often. E-rob, Chandler could be rewarded with dunks many times!


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## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

Jay Will could be a Kidd clone but the thing that troubled me is that he doesn't have the killer instinct to close out game. At this point, his offense isn't that great to be scoring at will when your team needs you the most. I hope that he developed a consistent jumper over this summer. As for Chandler and Curry, both of them better be putting up 12 pts and 9-12 boards per game on a consistent basis next year or they would be written as BUST on my book.

P.S. Who the hell decided to put the All-Stars Game in Atlanta. Their attendance for today is pathetic. If this is MJ last game as an All-Stars, put the game in Chicago. Speaking of Chicago, when was the last time that the All-Stars Game was held in Chicago anyway. I think the league hated Chicago literally.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tri_N</b>!
> Banging a dozen divas take a lot out of your legs. This is probably the reason why he can't even run. It's not like he doesn't want to run, it's that he can't run. Jay Will is getting school again by Arenas. What an embarrassment!



No name calling - MikeDC Williams wasn't guarding Arenas for almost the entire game. Jaric was guarding him. Kind of hard to get schooled by him when you aren't guarding him.


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## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Truth</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> No name calling - MikeDC Williams wasn't guarding Arenas for almost the entire game. Jaric was guarding him. Kind of hard to get schooled by him when you aren't guarding him.


I guess you weren't watching the game. Jay guard Arenas for the last 6 minutes of the second half. That was the time when Arenas turned on the speed dial. Jaric was even worse than Jay. Hard to make a comparison when both of them suck defensively.


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## irritabulls (Dec 7, 2002)

*I thought Chandler needed to be more agressive....*

I don't think he understood what this game was about , he didn't want to block any shots , because he thought that the fans were there to see dunks so he didn't want to deprive them of it . I also thought he was too unselfish , add to that that his teamates were ignoring him when he was open for dunks (specially Richard Jefferson ) .

How about Jay , now are we completely convinced that the problem is the triangle offense and not the players?.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tri_N</b>!
> 
> 
> I guess you weren't watching the game. Jay guard Arenas for the last 6 minutes of the second half. That was the time when Arenas turned on the speed dial. Jaric was even worse than Jay. Hard to make a comparison when both of them suck defensively.


Jay did not guard him for the last 6 minutes! Jay had just come back into the game with 6 minutes left. He switched with Jaric later because Arenas had abused Jaric so badly. I think Arenas made 2 of his shots when Jay was guarding him.

By the way, NOBODY played defense in this game at all. Jay actually played much better defense than anyone on the rookie team. When Jay came in with 6 minutes to go, he started really hustling on defense, showing that he really did want to win.


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## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Truth</b>!
> 
> 
> Jay did not guard him for the last 6 minutes! Jay had just come back into the game with 6 minutes left. He switched with Jaric later because Arenas had abused Jaric so badly. I think Arenas made 2 of his shots when Jay was guarding him.
> ...


Can I suggest that you check your prescription because you need better glass? The sophomore team wing players for the last 6 minutes were Richardson and Arenas. Richardson is 6'6 while Arenas is 6'4. Hard to imagine that he would guard Richardson. Take of your pick of either one but the bottom line is that Richardson and Arenas explode for 30 and 31 pts respectively. Check this out. Arenas scored the his last 23 pts during the second half. Who was Jay guarding? Paul Gasol. lol. No, my mistake. He doesn't guard anyone. I guess that was why you said he didn't guard Arenas. Letting a second rouder pulling 31 pts on your face is a disgrace no matter what.


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## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

*Re: I thought Chandler needed to be more agressive....*



> Originally posted by <b>irritabulls</b>!
> I don't think he understood what this game was about , he didn't want to block any shots , because he thought that the fans were there to see dunks so he didn't want to deprive them of it . I also thought he was too unselfish , add to that that his teamates were ignoring him when he was open for dunks (specially Richard Jefferson ) .
> 
> How about Jay , now are we completely convinced that the problem is the triangle offense and not the players?.


I am convinced that the reason our team has been underachieving is due to the incompetence of our coaching staff. Maybe the Bulls should pattern after the NFL in which they would hire an offensive coordinator and a defensive coordinator.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tri_N</b>!
> 
> 
> Can I suggest that you check your prescription because you need better glass? The sophomore team wing players for the last 6 minutes were Richardson and Arenas. Richardson is 6'6 while Arenas is 6'4. Hard to imagine that he would guard Richardson. Take of your pick of either one but the bottom line is that Richardson and Arenas explode for 30 and 31 pts respectively. Check this out. Arenas scored the his last 23 pts during the second half. Who was Jay guarding? Paul Gasol. lol. No, my mistake. He doesn't guard anyone. I guess that was why you said he didn't guard Arenas. Letting a second rouder pulling 31 pts on your face is a disgrace no matter what.



Okay, I'm going to really have to drag this one out. 

This was an all-star game. If you watched at all, you would understand that nobody was really matching up against anyone else. The rookies played a ZONE for most of the game. When the offense came down, the rookies would just guard whoever was closest to them. They didn't have set assignments. 

I WATCHED the game, and Arenas scored almost all of his second half points on someone other than Williams. Many of his shots were wide open kick outs when nobody was guarding him. Nobody played defense AT ALL in this game. Jay actually played much tougher than anyone else on his team. Yet, he is a "disgrace" because someone he rarely even guarded scored 31 points? PLEASE.

You are just searching for reasons to rip Williams.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Truth</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:yes:


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

Tri_N,

Man you are sad. We understand you hate Williams, but you look pathetic coming at him at every turn. You will totally ignore everything good he does just to point out a missed free throw or turnover. There is no evenhandedness in your arguments.

But this argument is truly sad. Are you seriously criticizing him for defense in an exhibition game????? What a farce. I should HOPE he's not playing defense. Nobody does. It's a game meant to show off and excite the fans, so you let guys look good. They give guys 5 feet of room on an outside shot, let them drive right by them, wont contest anything on the break, etc, etc. Like I said, it is an EXHIBITION.

If you can't see why criticizing defense in an exhibition in pointless and meaning, then you really need to get a clue.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Man you are sad. We understand you hate Williams, but you look pathetic coming at him at every turn. You will totally ignore everything good he does just to point out a missed free throw or turnover. There is no evenhandedness in your arguments.
> But this argument is truly sad. Are you seriously criticizing him for defense in an exhibition game????? What a farce. I should HOPE he's not playing defense. Nobody does. It's a game meant to show off and excite the fans, so you let guys look good. They give guys 5 feet of room on an outside shot, let them drive right by them, wont contest anything on the break, etc, etc. Like I said, it is an EXHIBITION


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Hilarious! 
Alright guys, let's not completely gang up on him
Thank you, ChiBullsFan and The Truth, for bringing sanity to this thread though.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

Uhh, but seriously, Chandler was awful.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

*So......*



> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> Uhh, but seriously, Chandler was awful.


I could care less. Its an exhibition game. If he did that during a regular season game, Id be worried. This game is completely meaningless.


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## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> Tri_N,
> 
> Man you are sad. We understand you hate Williams, but you look pathetic coming at him at every turn. You will totally ignore everything good he does just to point out a missed free throw or turnover. There is no evenhandedness in your arguments.
> ...


Jay was challenged by Arenas by many times this year. The first time they met, Jay got owned. Tonight, right on the spotlight, he choked again. It's time for him to shut up and put up. 

Stick to basketball. Abusive language and ridiculing other posters isn't allowed.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

Doing my job as moderator best I can. No offense intended.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

How did Jay choke? What are you talking about? He had 9 points, 9 assissts, 5 reb. in a freakin exhibition game in which he hardly shot! Would you listen to yourself?!?


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tri_N</b>!
> 
> 
> And this is coming from a former Dukie? Give me a break. Jay was challenged by Arenas by many times this year.


Good, Im glad he was challenged by Arenas. Arenas is a good player. If Jay wasn't challenged Id be worried about his love for the game.



> The first time they meet, Jay got owned.


A rookie got owned? And you are surprised?



> Tonight, right on the spotlight, he choked again. It's time for him to shut up and put up.


I wouldn't call 9 points and 9 assists bad....


> It's time for Jay Will fans to shut the HELL up too because he isn't as NBA ready as he was made to be.


I agree, he isnt as NBA ready as many thought, but the fact is he's a rookie learning whats perhaps the most complicated offense in the NBA.



> What's more annoying is his mouth? I don't know what's worse. Jay Will and his mouth or the constant slurping of Jay Will fans sucking on his *****.


[STRIKE]I doubt any of us "Jay fans" are sucking his ***edited for profanity, please don't change my edit this time-Louie***. Maybe you just wish you were.[/STRIKE]
EDIT BY VINTAGE FOR NOT-NICENESS


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

*Re: So......*



> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> 
> 
> I could care less. Its an exhibition game. If he did that during a regular season game, Id be worried. This game is completely meaningless.


I never claimed it had any bearing on his future or was a barometer of his skills. It was disappointing to see him wearing a Bulls jersey and give such lack-luster effort. He had a chance, on a national stage, to play well and show off some of his athleticism. He didn't even try and that was frustrating. We already get enough bad press, so I was just hoping Chandler would go out and display the same type of effort we see in games. If you don't care about it, then why respond to the thread? I never said anyone should be worried or that Chandler is now a bust.


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## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

How does he choke? Arenas challenged him and promised to own him tonight. Result? Arenas exploded for 30 pts while his team wins. If Jay is what he's made out to be, he would have taken over this game and shut up the doubters. Instead, he continues to suck.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

Gil got hot. Simple as that. It's easy when noones playing D. 
It means absolutely nothing. Jay didn't choke or get schooled, period, end of story.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: Re: So......*



> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> If you don't care about it, then why respond to the thread? I never said anyone should be worried or that Chandler is now a bust.


I don't care about his bad performance at a game like this.........it would worry me more if it was a regular season game. 

I was merely defending him.


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## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> Gil got hot. Simple as that. It's easy when noones playing D.
> It means absolutely nothing. Jay didn't choke or get schooled, period, end of story.


Right... Jay wasn't actually getting schooled when Areans blowed past him for a layup. No, Arenas owned and dominated Jay to the point of exhaustion. Jay can barely bring the ball upcourt without having his pocket picked.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: So......*



> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> I don't care about his bad performance at a game like this.........it would worry me more if it was a regular season game.
> 
> I was merely defending him.


And like I said, no one should be worried or concerned. You have to admit though, it was disappointing watching him standing around, when we all know he usually gives a ton of effort. I was hoping to see him get a few lobs today, as was everyone else I'm sure.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tri_N</b>!
> 
> 
> Right... Jay was actually getting schooled when Areans blowed past him for a layup. No, Arenas owned and dominated Jay to the point of exhaustion. Jay can barely bring the ball upcourt without having his pocket picked.



LOL!!!
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 

What are you talking about? You have serious issues.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Right... Jay was actually getting schooled when Areans blowed past him for a layup. No, Arenas owned and dominated Jay to the point of exhaustion. Jay can barely bring the ball upcourt without having his pocket picked


This is the craziest thing I've ever heard.


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

Stick to hoops. Let's try not to get so upset about what someone else writes.  

Gil Arenas scored 30 pts "on" JWill. Woohoo. Nobody cares. JWill doesn't care. It's an exhibition. Your job is to make your opponent look good. If your man decides he's gonna take it to the hole, you let him take it to the hole. If he decides he's gonna shoot, you lay off your man. These guys don't care who wins, don't care how they look -- the goal is to entertain. The stats don't matter. If you have one really cool dunk or behind the back pass, then you've played a good game basically. No one else think this game means anything as far as the season goes, like that if a player has a good game it means he is ready to "break out".

It's just an exhibition, why is that so hard to see?


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## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

If he doesn't care about winning, then I sure as hell wouldn't want him on our team because we're building a winner, not a loser. I am here to voice my opinion and not to make friends. If you're desperated for friends then you have my full sympathy.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> If he doesn't care about winning, then I sure as hell wouldn't want him on our team because we're building a winner, not a loser.


I understand this, but what about this game tonight would make you think that Jay is not a winner? It was an exhibition game that means nothing- it's just for show. I don't think Jay became the consensus player of the year at Duke by not caring about winning.


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

Again, Tri_N, it's an exhibition. Not caring about winning in an exhibition doesn't mean anything about whether a player cares about winning. I would say Jay has shown that he cares about winning real games, but you don't have to agree.

I'm sure Jordan didn't give a crap if he won the all-star games or not. Just don't read too much into it man. Ya know, at least Jay was good enough to even play in the game (unlike your homeboy Jamal, who didn't get selected either year).


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## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> Again, Tri_N, it's an exhibition. Not caring about winning in an exhibition doesn't mean anything about whether a player cares about winning. I would say Jay has shown that he cares about winning real games, but you don't have to agree.
> 
> I'm sure Jordan didn't give a crap if he won the all-star games or not. Just don't read too much into it man. Ya know, at least Jay was good enough to even play in the game (unlike your homeboy Jamal, who didn't get selected either year).


Homeboy Jamal? Get a real quote where I am in support of Jamal. I tell it like it is and at this point, both of our pgs don't deserve their drafting position.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tri_N</b>!
> 
> 
> Homeboy Jamal? Get a real quote where I am in support of Jamal. I tell it like it is and at this point, both of our pgs don't deserve their drafting position.


Was Payton deserving of his pick after his rookie year?
Was Davis deserving of his pick after his rookie year?
Was Miller deserving of his pick after his rookie year?

No, No, and No.

But they turned out alright in the end.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> I tell it like it is


HAH! Damned if that's not the overstatement of the year! I actually don't think your a bad poster most of the time and I can't speak for your posts in other threads, but almost everything you've said in this particular thread has been massively biased and, frankly, untrue.


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## RayMond Felton (Jan 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> 
> HAH! Damned if that's not the overstatement of the year! I actually don't think your a bad poster most of the time and I can't speak for your posts in other threads, but almost everything you've said in this particular thread has been massively biased and, frankly, untrue.



So is every single post you make reguarding Chandler. That goes for Krause's decisions too. I am a Bull fan too, but you have to be real about it. Being blind to our mistakes will not make us contenders.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Everybody needs to cool it and stick to basketball and stop focusing on other posters.


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## max6216 (Nov 27, 2002)

i guess it's ok to defend jay and chandler by saying they didn't care.but there was some other players on that court that sure did.and if i remember chandler sure cared when haywood called him out on his selection.seems brendan knew something we didn't. oh by the way mr.chandler benoit benjiman called he would like his skills back...


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## Bullsmaniac (Jun 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> Uhh, but seriously, Chandler was awful.


You would look awful too if the rest of your sophomore teammates ball-hogged and tried to up their own highlight reel. Come on did you watch this game, Tyson was by and under the basket several times but NOBODY passed to him instead they jacked up a three or past it to Kirelinko or somebdy else. Tyson didn't have any opportunity in this game. I don't think the rest fo the league or his teammates even wanted him there to tell you the truth. They played as if he was invisible. After the 2nd quarter and he realized that nobody will pass to him, he just plain gave up and just let the hogs get their showboating going.


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## local_sportsfan (Jul 24, 2002)

True Chandler was not getting passed to. But he didnt do anything to look like he deserved a pass. Go set a screen or something. Make your teammates want to pass to you. 

Trust me...in a game when people are screwing around, no one is going to pass to the guy whos standing in the corner.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Good freakin grief

I see nothing about Tyson Chandler's performance tonight, as lame as it was, to suggest that that he's got zero talent. He did look like a big lazy puss though.

And Jay did get lit up. The Sophs scored like 800 points in the last stint with him in there. Not an insignificant number came against JWill.

I also see nothing to suggest a legitimate reason for you all to be attacking each other the way I see in this thread.

If you all can't chill out, I'm gonna close this thread.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*i gotta say*

i'm in 100% agreement with local sports fan and mike dc 

Tc deserved to get chucked for not taking it upon himself to make himself part of the action ...and for messing up the few passes that happen to be thrown in his direction

and williams got lit up ...if thats possible in a zone 

to which i say so what? its an exibition

although there were some people in here trying to make something out of nothing by saying that williams should be freed from the triangle because he didn't play like crap today (cant say he played well sorry folks he was outplayed in the end of that game by a prtty significant margin) the truth is the bulls should increase their reins if anything to make a point that they aren't going to be bullied by the press and their press darling at the moment, Williams and make him realize he is on a team not a bunch of individuals and if he cant straighten up and fly right they'll make him fly somewhere else and see how he likes playing for some remote outpost of the nba where ther is only one newspaper and no one care whether you win or lose or if you complain about it and watch his endorsement $ flounder as alot of them have clauses in their contracts about where they play as in the larger the market they pay in, the larger their pay

the most important thing is that the players on out team play as one and dont become everyone's nightmare ...the clippers 

but back to the actual topic of this thread Chandler he really kind made himself look bad out there more than anyone else did by not passing him the ball Gasol when he wasn't getting passes hit the boards AK-47 made defensive plays ...i can only hope TC was saving his energy for the bulls


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: i gotta say*



> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> the truth is the bulls should increase their reins if anything to make a point that they aren't going to be bullied by the press and their press darling at the moment


But the Bulls aren't playing against the press, and they're not in the business of teaching lessons. At least, I hope not.

They ought to just be putting the right system in place for their players and then letting them play. Or, getting the right players for their system.

Either way you look at it, it doesn't really matter. The system and the players aren't meshing, and saying you just "clamping down" in a stubborn attempt to fit a square peg in a round hole doesn't seem like a productive endeavor to me.

It does, however, seem like one Jerry Krause would gladly undertake.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> So is every single post you make reguarding Chandler. That goes for Krause's decisions too. I am a Bull fan too, but you have to be real about it. Being blind to our mistakes will not make us contenders.


So just cause I don't agree with you makes me blind? I know what our mistakes are, I have eyes. I don't happen to believe that the Chandler trade is one of them, and there are a number of posters who agree with me.

Anyway, I have no doubt that Chandler played like crap- I watched the game. What I'm trying to say is this: *SO THE HELL WHAT!*. We're all getting worked up over a freakin' exhibition game that means *absolutely nothing*.


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## Spartacus Triumvirate (Jan 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> I don't happen to believe that the Chandler trade is one of them, and there are a number of posters who agree with me.


Count me as one.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Re: i gotta say*



> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> But the Bulls aren't playing against the press, and they're not in the business of teaching lessons. At least, I hope not.
> ...


i'm not talking suspend him teach him a lesson but lower his minutes to show him one very important thing 

comments that the team isn't being run right is detrimental to the team 

players get fined over it suspended over it and even cut over 2nd guessing a team's hiearchy 

the bulls should be trying to mold him into the player they want him to be if they aren't willing then they should trade him 

after all cartwright had no problem cutting fizer's min. when he came in out of shape or robinson for not playing defense or Crawford for not shooting well and chirping to the press earlier .

to me williams is no different and i think the system is working just fine williams isn't hitting shots the bulls play in a post up off, in any post up off. williams has to hit open shots


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

It isn't about his comments.

If he refuses to play (well) in the system the coach puts in place, he should sit.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

So I've just spent a short while reading every post in this thread, venom and all. Let me bring the discussion back to Ty for a moment. Here's something that concerns me about this guy: (aside from the fact that I believe he's extremely uncoordinated - see my thread about that one if interested) Ty clearly has the potential to be effective right now. The Amare near 40 point night got Ty all motivated, so he dropped, what was it, something like 28 and 19 on Rasheed Wallace. 

This event struck me as both positive and negative. So Ty can have a great night, but why does he have to spurred to do it by some other player? 

And for that matter, why didn't he just make the decision today to play good defense and show the strength of him game? Yeah, it's not a big deal, but in my opinion Jay really looked like he wanted to win, and I respect that.

And, oh, by the way Tri_n, Jay will be just fine. That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Gilbert Arenas is really good. And I would agree with other posters that Gilbert did not score most of his points when guarded by Jay.


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## RayMond Felton (Jan 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> So just cause I don't agree with you makes me blind? I know what our mistakes are, I have eyes. I don't happen to believe that the Chandler trade is one of them, and there are a number of posters who agree with me.
> 
> Anyway, I have no doubt that Chandler played like crap- I watched the game. What I'm trying to say is this: *SO THE HELL WHAT!*. We're all getting worked up over a freakin' exhibition game that means *absolutely nothing*.


No Louie, you are wrong. This is about the regular season too. If he can't beat out Marshall for more minutes in the rotation, on a lottery team, there is a problem. Many other young players have already beatin out veterans on far superior teams. Stop making this an argument soley based on his pitiful performance in this exhibition game, and realize 20 mins a game, and getting pine behind a vagabond power forward during the SEASON, makes him a bust on its own. The rook game is simply a measuring stick against others his age. His performance was the worst of all the players in that game, and his effort was pitiful. When your team score 139 points and you score 4, that is just plain lazy.

#2 picks are supposed to produce, not ride the bench on lottery teams. And the only reason he was even in this game is because of his pretty boy looks and because he is 7'0 tall.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> No Louie, you are wrong. This is about the regular season too. If he can't beat out Marshall for more minutes in the rotation, on a lottery team, there is a problem. Many other young players have already beatin out veterans on far superior teams. Stop making this an argument soley based on his pitiful performance in this exhibition game, and realize 20 mins a game, and getting pine behind a vagabond power forward during the SEASON, makes him a bust on its own. The rook game is simply a measuring stick against others his age. His performance was the worst of all the players in that game, and his effort was pitiful. When your team score 139 points and you score 4, that is just plain lazy.


Chandler is 20 years old- Marshall is a grizzled vet who's been having a career year. Personally, I'm not to concerned about him beating out Chandler for more minutes. Marhall's a good player. Plus, you could make the argument that most other coaches would probably be playing Chandler more.


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## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

Amare Stoudemire is 19 years old and he's starting while actually contributing on a consistent basis. Let me know when Tyson strings up a couple of 15-20 rebounds games on a consistent basis.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

*Well.......*



> Originally posted by <b>Tri_N</b>!
> Amare Stoudemire is 19 years old and he's starting while actually contributing on a consistent basis. Let me know when Tyson strings up a couple of 15-20 rebounds games in a consistent basis.


Amare has a NBA ready body. Chandler didn't. Thats the main reason for Amare's quick adjustment. Just because Chandler isn't as consistent yet, doesn't mean he won't be.

And when Chandler does that, you'l' be the 2nd person to know....with all the bashing of the Bulls that you do.

1st to know: Grizzoistight(anyone seen him lately?)


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> And the only reason he was even in this game is because of his pretty boy looks and because he is 7'0 tall.


Now that's just not true. Keep in mind that Ty is in this game, but the number one pick his year, Kwame Brown -- who is handsome, well spoken, talented, almost as tall, and for god's sake the #1 pick -- was not in the game. Ty's stats are similar to Kwame's, but I think he got picked because he's started more games than Kwame has.


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## Spartacus Triumvirate (Jan 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RayMond Felton</b>!
> 
> And the only reason he was even in this game is because of his pretty boy looks and because he is 7'0 tall.


Ty a pretty boy? Yikes! :no:


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

With respect to the whole J-Will vs. the Triangle issue...

Those of you clamouring for the Bulls to run some sort "run and gun" offense based on j-wills performance in Saturday's rookie game need to understand that performing well in a game in which absolutely no defense is being played is a far cry from a real NBA game. I don't know how many times Cartwright has stressed getting easy baskets in transition. It just isn't that easy. Transition opportunities start on the defensive side of things. Everyone realizes that team defense is a weak point of this team. You can't simply change the offensive philosophy and all of a sudden - WHAM - you've got the Showtime Lakers of the late 80's.

J-Will can cry about his lack of freedom because of what he perceives to be a restrictive philosophy, but in reality it's his entire teamates inability to secure a defensive rebound and start the transition from defense to offense that limits his "creative talents".

Take care of the ball J-Will and the rest will come.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tri_N</b>!
> Amare Stoudemire is 19 years old and he's starting while actually contributing on a consistent basis. Let me know when Tyson strings up a couple of 15-20 rebounds games on a consistent basis.


Stoudamire, plays in a RUn and Gun system (how ironic that you bring that up now, IN THIS THREAD, at this time), with people like Marbury, Marion, et cetera. They run, and they gun. There are plenty of opportunities for easy baskets for him that are created by Marbury and Marion, and he often gets baskets off put backs, when marbury or marion attack the rim, drawing defenders to them and away from the basket (please don't tell me you are enamored with his "elaborate post game" .) Stoudamire's transition to the NBA, has been enhanced by a great many things, not the least of which are an NBA ready body, and players who make it so much easier for him. 

Our star? Jalen rose. With all the (Operative word here==>)POOR SHOTS he hoists up, its no wonder offensive rebounds are hard to come by. When Jay and Jamal, are busy jacking up their obligatory 3-threes a game (apiece), the rebounds are long, oftentimes landing out around the foul line or further.......

The situations are altogether different.


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## max6216 (Nov 27, 2002)

the way some of these players talk they wanna look good in this game. cuz it's against there peers.and chandler didn't show up at all.does it mean anything? who knows. but i bet alot of bulls fan including myself were not calling this game meaningless when brand won the MVP.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> Transition opportunities start on the defensive side of things. *Everyone realizes that team defense is a weak point of this team.* You can't simply change the offensive philosophy and all of a sudden - WHAM - you've got the Showtime Lakers of the late 80's.


You sure? To read some of the comments here you would think that Jay is the ONLY ONE on the TEAM not playing effective defense. :yes:


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## Crawscrew (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> With respect to the whole J-Will vs. the Triangle issue...
> 
> Those of you clamouring for the Bulls to run some sort "run and gun" offense based on j-wills performance in Saturday's rookie game need to understand that performing well in a game in which absolutely no defense is being played is a far cry from a real NBA game. I don't know how many times Cartwright has stressed getting easy baskets in transition. It just isn't that easy. Transition opportunities start on the defensive side of things. Everyone realizes that team defense is a weak point of this team. You can't simply change the offensive philosophy and all of a sudden - WHAM - you've got the Showtime Lakers of the late 80's.
> ...


I totally agree, I just didn'y know how to put it into words. In reading these posts I have noticed the same thing over and over...people saying don't worry about Chandler, it's just an exhibition, and people praisin Jay, and callin for a new offense, in the same game. I'm confused, how can the game mean nothin one minute, but because Jay put up a decent game, it means everything, and we should change our whole offense...also I hat people comparing Jay to GP, and Baron, IT IS NOT A FAIR COMPARISON!!!!! Jay was a player who was supposed to come in and be a big time player right away, Baron and GP were more of projects. I'm tired of Jay supporters looking for excuses, he just needs to play better, that's it, and I don't understand when some people will basically suck Jay when he has a "good floor game" and when Jamal does the same thing, they rip his shooting, even when Jay is playin bad, I'm not sayin to rip Jay and praise Jamal, just give fair compliments and criticisms, if Jay doesn'y show me something by the end of the year, I will be extremeley worried


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## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

I am not talking about Amare pts average. I am talking about his rebounding. He pulls down at least 12 boards almost every game. It's rare to see Tyson pulling down 10 boards in a game. What does gun and run have to do with his rebounding? Also, Amare free throw is ten times better than Chandler and Curry combined. Last but not least, Amare is a monster that can run and dunk. Whose fault is it when Chandler decide not to prepare himself for the NBA by not lifting weight? This is called dedication and so far we got three crybabies on this team that have no skill whatsoever. What's a great scouting GM we have here when he basically wasted 2 #2 picks along with a #4 pick by picking up BUSTS. Also, if Chandler best bet is a Marcus Camby then we shouldn't even trade for Chandler in the first place because Camby sucks. It's nice to have a defensive presence but I don't want a Mutumbo or Camby on this team. I want a true superstar. When we actually have one, let's save the potential and waiting three more years talk for later.


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## RayMond Felton (Jan 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tri_N</b>!
> I am not talking about Amare pts average. I am talking about his rebounding. He pulls down at least 12 boards almost every game. It's rare to see Tyson pulling down 10 boards in a game. What does gun and run have to do with his rebounding? Also, Amare free throw is ten times better than Chandler and Curry combined. Last but not least, Amare is a monster that can run and dunk. Whose fault is it when Chandler decide not to prepare himself for the NBA by not lifting weight? This is called dedication and so far we got three crybabies on this team that have no skill whatsoever. What's a great scouting GM we have here when he basically wasted 2 #2 picks along with a #4 pick by picking up BUSTS. Also, if Chandler best bet is a Marcus Camby then we shouldn't even trade for Chandler in the first place because Camby sucks. It's nice to have a defensive presence but I don't want a Mutumbo or Camby on this team. I want a true superstar. When we actually have one, let's save the potential and waiting three more years talk for later.



Well said, I agree. If Tyson would just start producing, this would all be a moot point.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tri_N</b>!
> I am not talking about Amare pts average. I am talking about his rebounding. He pulls down at least 12 boards almost every game. It's rare to see Tyson pulling down 10 boards in a game. What does gun and run have to do with his rebounding? Also, Amare free throw is ten times better than Chandler and Curry combined. Last but not least, Amare is a monster that can run and dunk. Whose fault is it when Chandler decide not to prepare himself for the NBA by not lifting weight? This is called dedication and so far we got three crybabies on this team that *have no skill whatsoever.* What's a great scouting GM we have here when *he basically wasted 2 #2 picks along with a #4 pick by picking up BUSTS.* Also, if Chandler best bet is a Marcus Camby then we shouldn't even trade for Chandler in the first place because *Camby sucks.* It's nice to have a defensive presence but I don't want a Mutumbo or Camby on this team. I want a true superstar. When we actually have one, let's save the potential and waiting three more years talk for later.


Though I get the jest of whay you are trying to say, I will say that resorting to hyperbole and overstatement (as I had to tell another poster in a different forum), often decreases the credibility of your argument rather than enhancing it.

Now to talk about the actual substance of your post:



> Originally posted by <b>Tri_N</b>!
> I am not talking about Amare pts average. I am talking about his rebounding. He pulls down at least 12 boards almost every game.[/b]
> 
> He is averaging 9 rebounds a game, while playing nearly 12 more minutes a game more than Tyson. While that is extremely impressive, it is a far cry from the 11 he should be averaging if he pulls down "at least 12 boards almost every game" Again, see my initial statement in this thread...
> ...


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## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

There's a fine line between talent and skill. Talent is big, seven footer, great atheltic ability, quickness, etc... Skill is hitting an open jumper, slashing in traffic for a layup and one, being able to hit the trey when needed. Secondly, your points of the balls bouncing are irrevelant. These guys are 7 footer basketball players. From your statement, you sound as if these guy can't jump and grab for the rebound. Thanks for reinstate my points in which most of these guys are lazy bums that don't have the skill to compete.

Last but not least, if our players keep bricking up shots, then Chandler would have more rebounding opportunities than Stoudemire. This conclusion is as absurb as your run and gun theory.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Then debunk it then.



> Last but not least, if our players keep bricking up shots, then Chandler would have more rebounding opportunities than Stoudemire.


This is general, ambiguous, and altogether faulty (not to mention overly simplistic) logic. There is more to having a realistic "Rebounding opportunity" than a collection of missed shots.


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## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Krakken</b>!
> Then debunk it then.
> 
> 
> ...


No, you're WRONG. May I suggest a college level course of statistic if you're in HS because my logic is conclusive and proven. Assuming that both Chandler and Stoudemire have the same chance of getting a rebound when it's in air since I am being nice and infer that their skill levels are both about the same. If Amare only have about 9 missed shots, then his maximum rebounding opportunities is 9 while Chandler is 15 if his teammates missed about 15 shots. It's simple and proven. It's the same as saying which is more likely to occur, a team winning 4 out of seven games assuming that their winning and losing percentage is split at 50/50 or a team winning 6 out of 7 games.

BTW, Chandler is at least 7'2 while Stoudemire is only 6'11. It's ridiculous that Chandler is only average like 5 boards per game while Amare is close to averaging 10 boards per game; this is when Amare didn't even have any playing time at the beginning of the year.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

This is comical. 


> Originally posted by <b>Tri_N</b>!
> 
> 
> No, you're WRONG. May I suggest a college level course of statistic if you're in HS because my logic is conclusive and proven.


I have a Masters Degree in Biochemistry, and am currently working on a PhD in Cell and Molecular Biochemistry. My education is not an issue here. Further......



> Assuming that both Chandler and Stoudemire have the same chance of getting a rebound when it's in air since I am being nice and infer that their skill levels are both about the same.


This is the worst arguement of them all. And if you are using this as a foundation for your logic, just stop now. By your logic, SHAQ should average 50 rebounds a game. Worse, your logic makes no account for how the ball bounces off the rim (was it shot too hard, so that it bounces off the other side? Was it an air ball? Was it a line drive that came off hard and long, or a rainbow that bounces straight up in the air.....et cetera. Your argument actually *raises* more questions and answers none. How could you _ignore_ such? Your logic is truely an N-igma.




> If Amare only have about 9 missed shots, then his maximum rebounding opportunities is 9 while Chandler is 15 if his teammates missed about 15 shots. It's simple and proven.


Again, its too simple, like a stated above. Your arguement as flawed as it is above, further doesn't even account for playing time, and the missed shots in the stretches they are in. This only "stretches" your logic futher, and compounds the questions you accidentally raised above.....



> ]It's the same as saying which is more likely to occur, a team winning 4 out of seven games assuming that their winning and losing percentage is split at 50/50 or a team winning 6 out of 7 games.


Its not the same. What the above question asks for is a "prediction", and has little do with statistical data. It is more accurately described as a measure of probability, and a poor one at that since it fails to consider factors that could lead to a W/L record such as: Skill of the opponent, playing venue, injuries and personell, etc... You consider too little before speaking.......



> BTW, Chandler is at least 7'2 while Stoudemire is only 6'11. It's ridiculous that Chandler is only average like 5 boards per game while Amare is close to averaging 10 boards per game; this is when Amare didn't even have any playing time at the beginning of the year.


Just like Jkidd is "exactly 4 inches taller" than Jwill right? Please.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Spartacus Triumvirate</b>!
> 
> 
> Ty a pretty boy? Yikes! :no:


Yah ? What's with that ?

He's like a 7'2 John Leguiziamo


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

14.0, vs 12.2

That is what their averages are respecitvely over 48 minutes.


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## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Krakken</b>!
> 14.0, vs 12.2
> 
> That is what their averages are respecitvely over 48 minutes.


Stats for 48 mins doesn't account for jack in this league. If that was the case, Curry would be an all star because his stat over 48 mins is awesome.



> This is the worst arguement of them all. And if you are using this as a foundation for your logic, just stop now. By your logic, SHAQ should average 50 rebounds a game. Worse, your logic makes no account for how the ball bounces off the rim *(was it shot too hard, so that it bounces off the other side? Was it an air ball? Was it a line drive that came off hard and long, or a rainbow that bounces straight up in the air.....et cetera. *Your argument actually raises more questions and answers none. How could you ignore such? Your logic is truely an N-igma.


They play different opponents so it should cancel out eventually. We're looking at average for this season, not an exhibition game. No Personal comments: MikeDC . Everyone can bs their education background to look good in here and since this is a discussion board over the net, I won't go into the matter because there's no credibility in the assumption or statement whatsoever.



> Its not the same. What the above question asks for is a "prediction", and has little do with statistical data. It is more accurately described as a measure of probability, and a poor one at that since it fails to consider factors that could lead to a W/L record such as: Skill of the opponent, playing venue, injuries and personell, etc... You consider too little before speaking.......


Don't make it personal: MikeDC 

My previous statement was just to counter your argument about the gun and run offense in which Stoudemire gets more board. In this case, most of those transition plays end up in pts so there isn't really much of a chance for Stoudemire to crash the board. Also, your arguments are nonvalid Don't make it personal: MikeDC If you were to take a nonbiased sample in this case, everything should balance. Again, this is *season* average and not an exhibition game stats. The Lakers the Bulls play might be hotter than the Lakers the Suns play but the Cavs the Suns play might be hotter than the Suns the Bulls play. Injury is also the same case and so are your other counter arguments. Your argument should be tossed into the trash can especially when each team plays every other team in the league at least twice in the regular season. If anything, Chandler should have more rebounds than Stoudemire since the East doesn't even have any legit bigman.

Don't make it personal: MikeDC


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tri_N</b>!
> 
> 
> Stats for 48 mins doesn't account for jack in this league. If that was the case, Curry would be an all star because his stat over 48 mins is awesome.


Agreed. My point that Stoudamires stats don't look so menacing compared to Chandlers over a 48 minute stretch....I'll come back to that......in a minute...




> They play different opponents so it should cancel out eventually. We're looking at average for this season, not an exhibition game.
> 
> I never said anything about yester's game. What is your point??
> 
> ...


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tri_N</b>!
> 
> If anything, Chandler should have more rebounds than Stoudemire since the East doesn't even have any legit bigman.


This is, of course, best judged at the end of careers and NEVER EVER at the beginning of them.

:yes:


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

Leave out the personal comments: MikeDC Krakken, I'm with you 100% on this one.

And just a request for this board (that I'm certain will never be heeded) but can we allow common sense to prevail and look at the BIG PICTURE for once rather than arguing over minute points?

Arguing over stats from players coming right out of HS is meaningless. What we care about is how good they are a few years from now. And as past hisotry has shown, production from years 1 and 2 has not always been the best predicter of future success. There are frankly too many factors involved here to make any sort of accurate predictions.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

This thread is closed because despite continued warnings, posters are continuing to lob personal insults at each other.


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