# Delonte West - Discussion



## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

How the hell did West get consideration, much less a vote?


----------



## KingHandles (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



P-Dub34 said:


> How the hell did West get consideration, much less a vote?


He got consideration because he had a pretty well all around game. He may have lacked scoring but he just did his thing. Now a vote, Im with you there, how did he get that?


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



P-Dub34 said:


> How the hell did West get consideration, much less a vote?


There is more to it than just stats. You have to watch the game and see what he brings.

You still have not replied on how many games you saw last year which makes me question why you like Banks more.


----------



## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*

There is absolutely no chance that West can win player of the game over Pierce/Davis. Absolutely no chance. Stats or no stats. So don't gimme the "you need to watch the game" crap when it is blatantly obvious that there is no freaking way West was the player of the game. Thanks,



> You have to watch the game and see what he brings.


How many times you gonna pull that one? I get it. I'm unable to watch the games. Keep reading.



> You still have not replied on how many games you saw last year which makes me question why you like Banks more.


That's because you are on my ignore list and, as such, I cannot see your posts. Every once in awhile I read one or two, but this is the first I've heard of this. To answer your question, I'd probably estimate anywhere from 25-30 games or so, between nat'l televised games and what I can dl off the net/mooch from people.

One other thing I do is LISTEN. Since I do not have the advantage of seeing every game, every forum I frequent I listen to what everybody has to say regarding every game, their input, opinions, strengths and weaknesses of each player and how they played. When you cannot actually see the games on a routine basis you must be twice as diligent in order to be an informed fan with a valid opinion.


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*

OK so what has Marcus proved that Delonte can't do. 

How do you make an ignore list?


----------



## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*

GG, I had a long reply typed out, and when I posted it something in my browser went wrong and I lost it - I'll have to hit you back tomorrow.


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



Gerald Green said:


> OK so what has Marcus proved that Delonte can't do.


I'll make this quick so you can understand.

Marcus Banks can shut down opposing point guards on defense. West cannot do this.
Marcus Banks can penetrate rather easily and create off the dribble. West cannot do this (at Banks' rate).

There are more, but I would like for you to oppose those first.


----------



## KingHandles (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*

GG, don't bother. As huge a West fan as I am, the points Prem made are not arguable. If you do argue, Im sure Prem has a whole arsenal of things to say. Don't got here. :biggrin:


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



Premier said:


> I'll make this quick so you can understand.
> 
> Marcus Banks can shut down opposing point guards on defense. West cannot do this.
> Marcus Banks can penetrate rather easily and create off the dribble. West cannot do this (at Banks' rate).
> ...


You are right Marcus is a better at those two things, now here is a list of things that West is better at. 

Shooting (any spot on the court)
Getting in the paint
Getting to the line
Rebounding (all around)
Blocking Shots

There are more but now it is your turn


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*

Banks is a much better post player. West's frail frame and lack of great athleticism don't allow him to post up on any point guard; he is better at drawing fouls (getting to the line; statistics indicate this). Banks and West have equal blocking ability. West gambles too much, but he has made some spectacular plays.

West is the superior rebounder, but one thing he must learn is to get back on transition defense rather than attempting to rebound the ball. He often cannot catch up to his man because he tries to offensively rebound the ball. Also, West, rather than letting a big man or Pierce rebound the ball on the defensive end, will do it himself. I would rather he get to near the half court line and wait for an outlet to start the break. He is the better rebounder, but Banks isn't all too worse.

Now, weight each characteristic.


----------



## KingHandles (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*

Told you so GG...They both do what they do, and have things they bring to a team. West is proving what he is worth. Just leave it at that.


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



> Banks and West have equal blocking ability


Find me a stat that says that. You are the stat man


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



> but one thing he must learn is to get back on transition defense rather than attempting to rebound the ball.


Do you need to try to downsize everything?

There is plenty of ways everyone can improve their game.


----------



## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*

Premier is correct on all of his points. One thing he did not touch on, that I would like to add, is that Banks can bring a spark off the bench that West cannot. Banks can be a huge energy guy with his superior athleticism and create something more easily by getting into the paint and changing the flow of the game. West can't disrupt the opposing PG's rhythm nearly as well as Banks, and he can't create offense nearly as well as Marcus. Because of these things, Banks is ideal to bring off the bench when the team is looking lackluster, because he has a penchant for doing things that impact a game on a large scale, like he did last year in the Detroit 2OT game and the Indiana series.

Of course, this is when Banks is playing well. If he could do everything that he is capable of consistently, we wouldn't be having this argument about who is better.


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



> Banks can bring a spark off the bench that West cannot.


Because Delonte is a starter. What would you base that on?



> West can't disrupt the opposing PG's rhythm nearly as well as Banks


Again,you are on last year, his rookie year. he has greatly improved on that. He held Billups down, along with Stoudamire to less than average games for those players.



> and he can't create offense nearly as well as Marcus.


You are yet again on last year .He is averaging 5+ apg thus far. And he has been key to a lot of scoring for Pierce and Davis.



> Banks is ideal to bring off the bench when the team is looking lackluster, because he has a penchant for doing things that impact a game on a large scale, like he did last year in the Detroit 2OT game and the Indiana series.


Yes Banks off the bench (what I have been saying all along). I am completley fine with him backing up Delonte.

One more thing you guys do realize that Delonte is as old now as Banks was his rookie year. Which means he is developing a little faster


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*

P0Dub do you agree with Prem statement that Banks is just as good of a shotblocker that West is?


----------



## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*

GG, you are upset that I am basing my statements on last year - what would you like me to base it on? I haven't seen any games this year.


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



P-Dub34 said:


> GG, you are upset that I am basing my statements on last year - what would you like me to base it on? I haven't seen any games this year.


Exactly Delonte has been nothing but great this year. You can't just base something on some rookie mistakes. When you watch him this year say all you want


----------



## KingHandles (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*

I agree with both of the sides of the arguement. West is completely different then he was last year. This year he is playing like a 5 or 6 year player. I wouldn't say that Banks is as good as West at blocking. West blows Banks out of the water in that aspect. Just because Banks blocked Hunter last year because he was on a roll and had pure adrenaline pumping, does not bring him equal to West blocking some of the good big men in the NBA every game so far. I mean come on, West a point guard is among the league leaders in blocks, Banks could never do that.


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*

Quick question:

I thought if you cause someone to turn over the ball or force them into a terrible shot, it means that you have accomplished something that is even better than a block (as you are more likely to get possession)? I may have wrote that statement wrong. Banks gets the ball back for the Celtics just as good as West through his defense. Isn't that the ultimate goal for blocks anyway (if you didn't realise, my previous comment is wrong and I am forming a new argument with a different thesis)?

West's defense is slightly above average right now and that is because of his blocks and improved lateral quickness (he does look more conditioned). He still cannot trouble any point guards, but his height (he is 6'4" according to Lanteri, though was measure as 6'2" in the combine) and shot-blocking ability helps.

Secondly, do not interpret Delonte's ability to attain assists to a imaginary superior creating ability he has. West has amazingly improved in passing through the defense, but he is not on Banks' level just yet (something that Banks did very, very well). West is better suited at quickly swinging the ball to the open man (which is a valuable attribute on a perimeter team like the Celtics). He is aware of where everyone is, but he does not have a superior creating ability like your post claims.

Also, Gerald Green, I do have a problem with one part of Delonte's rebounding. Just because he is a good rebounder, it means I should ignore the mistakes he makes? I am one to criticize every player. I have taken a special interest in watching for Delonte (and also Ricky Davis) West's positive and negative plays.


----------



## KingHandles (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



Premier said:


> West's defense is slightly above average right now and that is because of his blocks and improved lateral quickness (he does look more conditioned). *He still cannot trouble any point guards*, but his height (he is 6'4" according to Lanteri, though was measure as 6'2" in the combine) and shot-blocking ability helps.


He has been troubling some vets this season, keeping them in check at key points in the game. He did a nice job on Jackson last night, a seasoned Veteran. He did good on Marbury for a 2nd year player. He was also a pain in Chauncey's ***.


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*

He is just talking out of his ***, look for any last reason to call Banks a better player


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



KingHandles said:


> He has been troubling some vets this season, keeping them in check at key points in the game. He did a nice job on Jackson last night, a seasoned Veteran. He did good on Marbury for a 2nd year player. He was also a pain in Chauncey's ***.


He did a good job against Marbury and Chauncey, but they also had poor shooting nights. I wouldn't say either player was truly frustrated with Delonte. He was decent against Charlotte, but how do you let Brevin Knight play so well (I know that Knight over-achieved and it was not all due to Delont's defense, as he was okay, but still). Bobby Jackson? Bobby Jackson killed the Celtics, though it was not necessarily Delonte's fault. Doc Rivers' defensive plan is for point guards to fight off screens, something our point guards cannot do. Jackson had a lot of open three point attempts.



Gerald Green said:


> Ok then look at turnovers created by Delonte. It is not that hard


Would you care to point me in the right direction to find this statistic? Also, a disrupted shot is just a good as a turnover right? Delonte is good at this, but Banks is better.



Gerald Green said:


> He is just talking out of his ***, look for any last reason to call Banks a better player


Yeah, pretty much.[/sarcasm]

Do you ignore all points a poster makes save a few?


----------



## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



Gerald Green said:


> P0Dub do you agree with Prem statement that Banks is just as good of a shotblocker that West is?




just because delonte had 4 games with a block or 2 doesnt mean he is alonzo mourning....i doubt he'll end up averaging more than .5 blocks per game if that...u cant use a good 4 games of blocking as a reason why delonte is better than marcus


----------



## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*

West (apparently) did a good job on Marbury and Billups, but what happens when he matches up against smaller, quicker PG's? Look for a lot of fouls on LaF/Blount tonight because Tony Parker will be penetrating at will. There is no way Delonte West can stop somebody as agile and fast as TP from getting by him unless he surrenders a wide open jumper (which isn't a bad idea on Parker). The jury is out on whether or not West can guard quicker 1's (Brevin Knight, par example). Banks can guard these smaller, quicker points much better than West.

And GG - if you wanna take shots at me, I can handle it. But one of the most respected and knowledgeable posters on this forum that he is "talking out of his ***" because he is bringing points you don't like to the table...that's just out of line.



> Do you ignore all points a poster makes save a few?


Yes, he does. GG doesn't realize that a skill can be positive but have negative aspects, such as his rebounding. He doesn't seem to realize that a great shooter will hit a lot of baskets - but take innoportune shots and miss. He doesn't seem to realize that a great playmaker will make a lot of great passes - and turn the ball over. He doesn't realize that a good big man will play terrific D and block shots - but occassionaly get into foul trouble.

There are two sides to everything - even if you do it well, there is almost always a negative that goes along with it.


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



> Would you care to point me in the right direction to find this statistic? Also, a disrupted shot is just a good as a turnover right? Delonte is good at this, but Banks is better.


Add up blocks and steals. Not that every blocks leads to a turnoner but his numbers are phenomanal

And btw I don't appreciate the fact that you are using these stats that I have never heard of that slighty favor Banks. Just compare the PPG, RPG, and APG in the two players second seasons. Delonte is only getting better. And if you feel that it is not fair to compare the stats because Delonte is starting checkout the stats per 40 minutes

And I am sorry that I am ignoring FDGJDF% per game but you seem to be ignoring the real stats


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> just because delonte had 4 games with a block or 2 doesnt mean he is alonzo mourning....i doubt he'll end up averaging more than .5 blocks per game if that...u cant use a good 4 games of blocking as a reason why delonte is better than marcus


He has had a block in every game. 4,2,1,1. Phenomonal for a PG. I doubt Banks had 10 Blocks all last year (don't hop on me if he had 12 :|)


----------



## beantown (Sep 2, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*

West is on the court at the end of games, Marcus isn't even on the court.


----------



## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



Gerald Green said:


> He has had a block in every game. 4,2,1,1. Phenomonal for a PG. I doubt Banks had 10 Blocks all last year (don't hop on me if he had 12 :|)




west let tony parker run a basketball clinic on him last night...23-6-6...but he had a block so that makes up for it...GUARANTEED parker doesnt get 23 pts with banks guarding him...id rather see banks hold tp to 14 pts with no blocks than to have west give up 23 with a block


----------



## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



beantown said:


> West is on the court at the end of games, Marcus isn't even on the court.




ummmm stress fracture???


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> west let tony parker run a basketball clinic on him last night...23-6-6...but he had a block so that makes up for it...GUARANTEED parker doesnt get 23 pts with banks guarding him...id rather see banks hold tp to 14 pts with no blocks than to have west give up 23 with a block


Dickau played equal minutes last night. :|


----------



## beantown (Sep 2, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> ummmm stress fracture???




Whatever. He wasn't on the court to start and end games regularly, as West is now, at any point during his pro-career, which has been longer than Delonte West's. The reason for this is that however sensatonal his raw skills, Marcus is not as productive or solid a player.


----------



## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



beantown said:


> Whatever. He wasn't on the court to start and end games regularly, as West is now, at any point during his pro-career, which has been longer than Delonte West's. The reason for this is that however sensatonal his raw skills, Marcus is not as productive or solid a player.




and the reason that delonte is starting and ending games is that we have no better option...which isnt saying much...who do u expect starting dan dickau?...granted delonte has played very well these first few games but still he isnt as "great" as alot of people are making him out to be...he makes some great plays...but until he shows me above average play at either end of the court i wont have complete confidence in him


----------



## beantown (Sep 2, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> and the reason that delonte is starting and ending games is that we have no better option...which isnt saying much...who do u expect starting dan dickau?...granted delonte has played very well these first few games but still he isnt as "great" as alot of people are making him out to be...he makes some great plays...but until he shows me above average play at either end of the court i wont have complete confidence in him




I don't really understand what you mean. Granted, Marcus Banks has the athletic ability of a prototype point guard, enough that Ainge was willing to stake his vision on it. This seems a perfect example of the value of intangibles, especially at the point of your offense. 
Dickau, btw, has so far had a much better career than Banks; no, I don't really Dan Dickau starting as he can't play D and lost his jumpshot.
"_he isnt as "great" as alot of people are making him out to be...he makes some great plays._ Just go ahead and say it, we won't hold a grudge! Delonte has been great. He's blocking forwards down low and flirting with triple doubles. Speaking of "talented" losers(not that Banks has ever been trusted to win/lose yet) who ran their offense for a 20-6(?) overtime spanking over the other, the infinitely promising Marbury, or was it the other guy, not Joe Forte but that kid from St J's. West is probably a better athlete than Stockton, nothing against John, because West and Banks will either make it in the NBA or fade away in the NBDL on intagibles that only show when you are healthy ^ hearty enough to show off your skills.

p.s.--Delonte was a first-round NBA draft pick, hes got skillz.


----------



## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



beantown said:


> p.s.--Delonte was a first-round NBA draft pick, hes got skillz.




LOL @ YOUR LOGIC...especially in a celtics discussion board...Kedrick brown and joe forte???? they were first round picks also...kedrick just bagged my groceries at shaws and i beat frote in one on one the other day...im not sayin delonte is as bad as them but damn that was the worst comeback u could have possibly made


----------



## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



beantown said:


> I don't really understand what you mean. Granted, Marcus Banks has the athletic ability of a prototype point guard, enough that Ainge was willing to stake his vision on it. This seems a perfect example of the value of intangibles, especially at the point of your offense.


Danny risked his vision on Marcus Banks? Wow, I didn't know that Banks is the devil and has stopped the Celtics from winning anything, while under Ainge. I'm glad Banks got injured and we're able to steer the ship back to the shore.



beantown said:


> Dickau, btw, has so far had a much better career than Banks; no, I don't really Dan Dickau starting as he can't play D and lost his jumpshot.


Great point! Too bad he's also had a better career than West, too. Dickau is the best PG on the roster right now, he just can't play any defense, which is costing him the starting job and playing time.



beantown said:


> "_he isnt as "great" as alot of people are making him out to be...he makes some great plays._ Just go ahead and say it, we won't hold a grudge! Delonte has been great. He's blocking forwards down low and flirting with triple doubles. Speaking of "talented" losers(not that Banks has ever been trusted to win/lose yet) who ran their offense for a 20-6(?) overtime spanking over the other, the infinitely promising Marbury, or was it the other guy, not Joe Forte but that kid from St J's. West is probably a better athlete than Stockton, nothing against John, because West and Banks will either make it in the NBA or fade away in the NBDL on intagibles that only show when you are healthy ^ hearty enough to show off your skills.


Banks hasn't been trusted yet to close out games and West has? In Bank's first year, he's had superior PG's in front of him on the depth chart. In Bank's second year, he's had Gary Payton in front of him. In his third year he's injured and because we don't have anyone who's better than Delonte (Payton, Atkins, Mike James), West is the world's best PG?



beantown said:


> p.s.--Delonte was a first-round NBA draft pick, hes got skillz.


I'd rather have Earl Watson, Bobby Simmons, Mehmet Okur or Gilbert Arenas (all second rounders) than Forte and/or Brown.


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*

Delonte has produced a lot more in his career than the loto pick Banks


----------



## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



Gerald Green said:


> Delonte has produced a lot more in his career than the loto pick Banks


..



aquaitious said:


> I'd rather have Earl Watson, Bobby Simmons, Mehmet Okur or Gilbert Arenas (all second rounders) than Forte and/or Brown.


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*

I'd rather have Shammond williams then Forte or Brown


----------



## beantown (Sep 2, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> LOL @ YOUR LOGIC...especially in a celtics discussion board...Kedrick brown and joe forte???? they were first round picks also...kedrick just bagged my groceries at shaws and i beat frote in one on one the other day...im not sayin delonte is as bad as them but damn that was the worst comeback u could have possibly made



No, ytou misunderstood me; logically were on the same page. I was saying that being more highly touted for physical tools than West is, which is what yoru creaming your pants over I presume, doesnt mean anythign three yeaers after the fact when youve failed to become what you were projected to be; a devastatingly gifted point guard to ensure against being in the position of needing a worn out old glove. Banks cannot grasp halfcourt offense and he takes terrible care of the ball. His basketball IQ is more noticabley deficient than any player i have watched for an equal number of games. West has fought for what little respect the pundits give him; Banks just keeps hangin on, falling doown the depth list. Hes not even capable of being traded properly for Christs sake. I am POSITIVE that if he were not Ainge's first man in, by now hed be out. I'll give him another chance if for no other reqason than weve allowed him to be a hinderance to developing our other pg's--like west--and It makes no sense to have done so for nothing. I hope he comes around, he sure does look goodshooting down the floor; sweet cross; drive the lane.....as long as you stop watching before he freezes midair like a deer in headlights and goes hot-potato with our possesion. I give him a 38% chance of being in the lague longer than 21/2 years; I give him a 6% chance of doing it with the C's. 
I don't understand whats not to like about Delonte West. I think, I THINK, West has a better chance of starting an NBA finals than Banks does of starting like 60-65 games in an NBA season. Thats my feeling, I can't wait to see how it turns out. If Banks turns out to be the real Slim Shady and displaces West, I'm gonna be real happy about out what has been our shakiest position and most dire need after the 5 spot. I understand West has only had the job for half a dozen games, but he was rebound and assist away from a triple double in a situation he can't be completely comfortable with after just a half dozen games. 

Oh, btw, isn't Banks LAST out of four Celtic point guards, whenever he comes back? And its not like he has done anything to assure an unspoken guarantee that he ever will at his current progression. JUMPIN' JEHOVAH--HE CANT EVEN GET TRADED PROPERLY. If hes got skills, if maybe he needs a jumpstart to catalyze the trans. of Bank's skillz into Celtic W's, then that may very well be the case. No youth is promising enough to be beyond labeling an albatross. Three years is a long time to blossom, West has three(?) years in hand and hes flirting with three dubs'. How can all this be true when Marcus Banks is just clearly so much "better" than D-West. 

_It defies LoGiK, you'd have to agree no?_ 

Quick, someone tell Delonte he's no good before he gets and makes All-NBA. Marcus does have a fast times running in combines, so I'm sure you have no doubt he'll catch up no prob. C'mon Marcus, left foot, right foot;left foot, right. 

I hope your right. I also hope that Banks isnt as slow as he looks, he cant be that dim I trust. If theres anyone I can imagine, athlete or else, who may have been left off the list of people to be provided a helmet as standard attire, its M-Banks. 

8%, thats how much chance I think there is of Marcus realizing Doc's been actually saying things TO him for three years.


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



beantown said:


> No, ytou misunderstood me; logically were on the same page. I was saying that being more highly touted for physical tools than West is, which is what yoru creaming your pants over I presume, doesnt mean anythign three yeaers after the fact when youve failed to become what you were projected to be; a devastatingly gifted point guard to ensure against being in the position of needing a worn out old glove.


I cannot recall anyone projecting Marcus Banks to be anything more than what he is. As some may remember, in the '03 draft, he was only selected during the late lottery because of his workouts and the Chicago pre-draft camp. He was not selected with a high lottery selection so it is false to say that he hasn't accomplished what he was projected to do. Banks has shown that he can become a good backup/decent starter in the league, but do to poor coaching, he isn't able to recieve any substantial minutes, thus resulting in his negative perception through the average Celtics fan. Banks has shown that he can _atleast_ be a premier defender in this league. Most teams love to have this type of player on their team (Trevor Ariza, Bruce Bowen, Earl Watson, Trenton Hassell). While being a great defender, Banks can also do many other things...



> Banks cannot grasp halfcourt offense and he takes terrible care of the ball.


After being on one of the greatest running collegiate teams in UNLV, you expect him to play Boston's tired jog up the court half-court offense? After Ainge pledged that Boston would become a fastbreak basketball team, the decisions his coaches (Carroll and Rivers) have made indicate quite the opposite (Carroll with his three-point offense, formulated from being exposed to the radiation that is Rick Pitino and Jim O'Brien; and Rivers who has no clue how to run a basketball team in a game). About Marcus not being able to take care of the basketball while initating a half-court offense:

[space]

*Note*: Before you read this, I suggest you have an interest in advanced basektball analysis that can only be understood (unless you are able to objectively watch every Boston Celtics game, focusing in at all aspects of basketball all at the same time) through statistics. If you do not wish to higher your knowledge of basketball, I'm sure you'll find a thread which is more suitable for you and your ability to understand basketball. Thanks.

[space]



> *'03-'04 (Marucs Banks):* 3.0614 (ballhandling plus bad pass turnovers _per 40 minutes_) divided by 19.1 (his usage [the amount of possessions he uses per forty minutes]) equals 16.0283% *(his turnovers per possession)*.
> 
> *'04-'05 (Marcus Banks):* 2.3406 (ballhandling plus bad pass turnovers _per 40 minutes_) divided by 16.6 (his usage [the amount of possessions he uses per forty minutes]) equals 14.1% *(his turnovers per possession)*.




Not bad for someone who cannot take care of the ball, right (I don't know you well enough to assume that you are capable of effectively using hyperbole so I will interpret your opinions through exactly what you post)?



> His basketball IQ is more noticabley deficient than any player i have watched for an equal number of games.


This is objective, which is all right if you explain your reasoning, but you have not.



> West has fought for what little respect the pundits give him; Banks just keeps hangin on, falling doown the depth list. Hes not even capable of being traded properly for Christs sake. I am POSITIVE that if he were not Ainge's first man in, by now hed be out. I'll give him another chance if for no other reqason than weve allowed him to be a hinderance to developing our other pg's--like west--and It makes no sense to have done so for nothing. I hope he comes around, he sure does look goodshooting down the floor; sweet cross; drive the lane.....as long as you stop watching before he freezes midair like a deer in headlights and goes hot-potato with our possesion. I give him a 38% chance of being in the lague longer than 21/2 years; I give him a 6% chance of doing it with the C's.


This entire paragraph isn't relevant as it uses the variables of Ainge, Rivers, and other outside forces while comparing Banks and West. Your comment about him not being able to be traded properly does not, well, make you any more persuasive. Your use of percentage is laughable.



> I don't understand whats not to like about Delonte West. I think, I THINK, West has a better chance of starting an NBA finals than Banks does of starting like 60-65 games in an NBA season. Thats my feeling, I can't wait to see how it turns out. If Banks turns out to be the real Slim Shady and displaces West, I'm gonna be real happy about out what has been our shakiest position and most dire need after the 5 spot. I understand West has only had the job for half a dozen games, but he was rebound and assist away from a triple double in a situation he can't be completely comfortable with after just a half dozen games.


Please explain what makes Delonte West better than Marcus Banks and I will refute.



> Oh, btw, isn't Banks LAST out of four Celtic point guards, whenever he comes back? And its not like he has done anything to assure an unspoken guarantee that he ever will at his current progression. JUMPIN' JEHOVAH--HE CANT EVEN GET TRADED PROPERLY. If hes got skills, if maybe he needs a jumpstart to catalyze the trans. of Bank's skillz into Celtic W's, then that may very well be the case. No youth is promising enough to be beyond labeling an albatross. Three years is a long time to blossom, West has three(?) years in hand and hes flirting with three dubs'. How can all this be true when Marcus Banks is just clearly so much "better" than D-West.


1. Jason Kidd does not have a jump shot earlier in his New Jersey Nets career. I am not comparing Jason Kidd with Banks, but merely indicating that not having a jump shot isn't a cardinal sin in the NBA as you claim. In fact, Banks is just as efficient in scoring as West and he is a more capable offensive scorer, while West is just a stand-still shooter with inadequate ability of putitng the ball on the floor unless he is given a tremendous opportunity.

2. No one player creates wins. This is a given. There are much to much variables in a team-oriented game.

3. Once again, please, without using one game (or five) as a sample size, reason how Delonte West is any better than Marcus Banks by weighting each characteristic of basketball that each possesses.

I won't bother responding to the remaining filler that is your post.


----------



## beantown (Sep 2, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*

What are you autistic, brother?

This is not appropriate, please refrain from this type of remark, it could be offensive to some. Whiterhino


----------



## beantown (Sep 2, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*

Listen rainman, statistics are nice because you can get a statistic which effectively proves the sky is every color of light except blue; now look up and tell me what you see(hint: you won't need to use pi). 

If only your argument wasn't crap your arsenal of stats would be impressive. What shows that West is a better basketball player than Banks if you ignore the actual games which we have seen them play? Let's see, wind blowing 8 knots S-SW; nothing I suppose, what was I thinking actually watching the games when I have a graphing calculator.

Premier, Banks was behind West on the depth chart BEFORE he got hurt, maybe you should let River's know Banks is better than Delonte; if your calculator says Banks is better, River's evaluation of players in practice every day must be misguided somehow. Maybe your calculator can coach the team. If you ARE autistic--know you are gifted, special. If not, get a clue and lighten up. Basketball isnt math pal, statistics are aids, don't be so dependent on them, its blinding you to the obvious.

Banks is behind Delonte on the depth chart, arguing that Banks is better seems belligerant and--for lack of a better word--stupid. Later.


----------



## Aznboi812 (Nov 9, 2005)

West is better than Banks, theres even rumors that they might trade away Banks, they almost traded him to the lakers, that already shows that they don't like him that much


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



beantown said:


> Listen rainman, statistics are nice because you can get a statistic which effectively proves the sky is every color of light except blue; now look up and tell me what you see(hint: you won't need to use pi).
> 
> If only your argument wasn't crap your arsenal of stats would be impressive. What shows that West is a better basketball player than Banks if you ignore the actual games which we have seen them play? Let's see, wind blowing 8 knots S-SW; nothing I suppose, what was I thinking actually watching the games when I have a graphing calculator.


First of all, a ten year old could understand those statistics. Please. It's not like I offered adjusted plus/minus statistics. Turnovers per possession. Is that really hard to comprehend? Your dismisal of statistics shows that either you can effectively and objectively watch and analyze every moment of every Celtics game, being critical about every characteristic of each player; or you are unable to understand them due to other various reasons. Why would I ignore the actual game? Statistics are merely a tool to further my understanding and knowledge of basketball and I cross-reference these statistics with what opinions I form while watching a game.

Oh, by the way, baiting isn't allowed on these forums.




> Premier, Banks was behind West on the depth chart BEFORE he got hurt, maybe you should let River's know Banks is better than Delonte; if your calculator says Banks is better, River's evaluation of players in practice every day must be misguided somehow.


I'm supposed to trust the guy who drafted Reece Gaines and Jeryl Sasser? Are you serious?

Rivers decisions should always be critcized as he hasn't shown he is capable of making good ones.



> Maybe your calculator can coach the team. If you ARE autistic--know you are gifted, special. If not, get a clue and lighten up. Basketball isnt math pal, statistics are aids, don't be so dependent on them, its blinding you to the obvious.


I'm not dependent on statistics. Your claim that Banks cannot handle the ball was false so I offered _proof_ (something you haven't done as of yet, instead writing long posts where you maybe state your opinion in twenty words without explaining anything). 



> Banks is behind Delonte on the depth chart, arguing that Banks is better seems belligerant and--for lack of a better word--stupid. Later.


Banks being behind West on the depth chart has nothing to do with which player is better. It isn't relevant as I explained in my previous post, but I don't expect you to read my posts anyway.


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Aznboi812 said:


> West is better than Banks, theres even rumors that they might trade away Banks, they almost traded him to the lakers, that already shows that they don't like him that much


Err...

West is better than Banks, how?

Also, what does the rumors of Banks being traded have anything to do with his basketball ability. I interpret it as Banks not being 'liked' by the Celtics coaching staff, forcing Danny to trade him, starting an inferior point guard (one that cannot defend at Banks' high level, one that cannot create off the dribble, one that cannot bring the ball up the court facing a slight pressure defense).

I gave my reasons. What are yours?


----------



## beantown (Sep 2, 2005)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*

Listen, you seem like a smart guy but your discrediting yourself; if Banks is so good, he's _WELL_ past due. Sorry about the "baiting," I'm just joking around, its easy to misinterpret in typeface.


----------



## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Game Four: Player of the Game*



beantown said:


> Listen, you seem like a smart guy but your discrediting yourself; *if Banks is so good, he's WELL past due.* Sorry about the "baiting," I'm just joking around, its easy to misinterpret in typeface.





Premier said:


> ...Banks not being 'liked' by the Celtics coaching staff, forcing Danny to trade him, starting an inferior point guard (one that cannot defend at Banks' high level, one that cannot create off the dribble, one that cannot bring the ball up the court facing a slight pressure defense).


..


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

Premier said:


> Err...
> 
> West is better than Banks, how?
> 
> ...


So because Banks is better at D, and is a little better at bringing te ball up the court, that makes Banks a better player?

No.


----------



## KingHandles (Mar 19, 2005)

Gerald Green said:


> So because Banks is better at D, and is a little better at bringing te ball up the court, that makes Banks a better player?
> 
> No.



It does when you are looking for a point guard. I agree with you that West is better overrall than Banks. Now I realize what Prem, P-Dub and everyone else has been telling me, that West is a shooting guard.


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Banks is exponentially greater than West at defense. I'm not knocking West (he is average to above-average), but Marcus Banks is a top three defender at his position (Chris Duhon, Earl Watson). This goes without any explanation.

Banks is also much better at creating off the dribble. Banks' best assest (aside from his defense) is his explosiveness from the perimeter and ability to either penetrate for the layup or draw an extra defender and kick it out to the open man. West's first step is lack-luster and he cannot do this.

Banks is also better suited at leading the fast-break (if Rivers would ever run it) as he is able to effectively pass up the court and find running teammates. From what I've seen from West, he makes the obvious pass and that is recognized by the defense. Banks is a better passer (and his passes are also more efficient as his assit/bad pass ratio is greater than the supposedly 'cautious' West).

West is always phased when facing a slight pressure defense and for a player of his percieved high basketball IQ, does not think to pass to the inbound player. Banks is usually calm enough to withstand a pressure defense and recognize that he can pass out of a double team, rather than trying to dribble through it (like West did in the New York game, causing a eight second violation).

West does exactly four things better than Banks. Rebounding (not by a large margin). Blocking (not by a large margin). Shooting (not by _that_ large of a margin). Taking care of the ball (not by a large margin).


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

> I'm not knocking West (he is average to above-average)


I'll take that and a jump shot any day over Marcus Banks


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

West > Banks at:
Getting to the lane
Getting fouled
Shooting (any spot on the court)
Rebounding
Blocking shots
Assist to TO
More Physical (stronger)

to me that outweighs what Banks brings.


----------



## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

So GG, do you see Delonte West as the future of the Celtics at the PG position, or a temporary fix?


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

KingHandles said:


> It does when you are looking for a point guard. I agree with you that West is better overrall than Banks. Now I realize what Prem, P-Dub and everyone else has been telling me, that West is a shooting guard.


And he still plays better at the point


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> So GG, do you see Delonte West as the future of the Celtics at the PG position, or a temporary fix?


For now he has played well and there is no reason he should be stopped. He is only getting better. Long term point maybe maybe not but he is deffinatly the best option out there and proving it.


----------



## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Mmm, okay, and what do you see his plateau numbers being?


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> Mmm, okay, and what do you see his plateau numbers being?


15 ppg
7 apg
8 rpg


----------



## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

I sincerely doubt West will ever blossom to 7apg and 8rpg is very high for a PG, though he has shown some nice rebounding skills so far. 15ppg is also pretty high, but not unachieveable for a stand-still shooter (see Michael Finley of last year, Wally Szczerbiak). I also doubt he'll ever have the shooting touch of a Wally S., either.

We shall see.


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> I sincerely doubt West will ever blossom to 7apg and 8rpg is very high for a PG, though he has shown some nice rebounding skills so far. 15ppg is also pretty high, but not unachieveable for a stand-still shooter (see Michael Finley of last year, Wally Szczerbiak). I also doubt he'll ever have the shooting touch of a Wally S., either.
> 
> We shall see.


Ok sounds fair. I think he has that talent and you don't. You think that Banks has that talent and I don't.

So it is all good now....hopefully.


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Gerald Green said:


> Getting to the lane


No. This is false. West is pretty terrible at penetrating.



> Getting fouled


Wrong again. Banks draws a higher percentage of fouls.



> Shooting (any spot on the court)


Delonte West isn't that great of a shooter. He is likely average to below average. He can hit the open shot, but unless we get a Tim Duncan-esque player to draw Delonte West's defender away, he won't be getting much shots.



> Rebounding


Agreed.



> Blocking shots


Agreed. Not really point guard attributes, eh?



> Assist to TO


Your use of statistics is laughable. Turnovers per possession and assists to bad pass are better indicators of ballhandling ability and passing ability, respecitvely. West is better at the former, while Banks is better at the latter.



> More Physical (stronger)


God no.

Why don't you bother responding to my post?


----------



## KingHandles (Mar 19, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> Mmm, okay, and what do you see his plateau numbers being?


12pts
6asts
6rbs
2stls
1.5blks

Solid starter


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Six rebounds and seven assists? He's not Jason Kidd.

12/5/4


----------



## KingHandles (Mar 19, 2005)

Premier said:


> Six rebounds and seven assists? He's not Jason Kidd.
> 
> 12/5/4


I mistyped it the first time, but I changed it.


----------



## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

I don't think there's any West west will average 1.5bpg or 2spg for 82 games.

You do realize that 1.5bpg would make him the best shot blocking guard in the NBA, and that 2spg would make him one of the Top 5 stealing guards in the NBA, right?


----------



## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

Premier do you have to continue arguing?

Me and P-Dub left it to a we'll see


----------



## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

I think Delonte's shine is already tarnishing, was it just me who noticed he did not look very good against Houston. Dickau is trying really really hard on defense, it's obvious cause he knows thats what's holding him back. Now granted he still is not doing well at it but if he can even get to adequate Delonte will be in trouble, the offense is much better with him running it, he finds the open man...Delonte passes to whoever is right in front of him. Delonte is a SG plain and simple and he's too small to be one in this league but he could probably solidify a back-up shooting guard spot because of his hustle. He's a nice kid, he's still not a PG.


----------

