# Official Season Is a Wash Thread



## ScottMay

I was going to wait to post this until after the completion of the road trip, but there's so little doubt in my mind the Bulls will get throttled in Dallas and Boston (a game I'm stupidly suffering through a day-before-Tgiving trip to see in person), I thought I'd get it out of the way now.

The Bulls 2002-2003 season is officially a wash. The 0-6 trip has firmly let the Bulls know where they belong, right back at the very bottom of the league, and it's quashed any optimism or progress built up by their fast start (a fluke, apparently).

Krause's rebuilding plan hasn't budged an inch from square one. Sure, you can point to players like Curry, Chandler, Williams, and Crawford as being huge assets, but you'll have to first convince me that they aren't already plotting escape routes from what's become the NBA's lunatic asylum. 

What else is a 19-year-old to do when by all outward appearances his coach harbors an odd personal resentment against him? What is one of the most highly polished, basketball-savvy lead guard prospects to enter the league in a good long while to think when his coach unbendingly runs an offense that's perversely ill-suited to his abilities? What is the team's best shooter, a long and quick 6-5 guard, to think when his coach almost childishly refuses to even entertain the notion of giving him minutes at the off-guard? What is a 20-year-old, who the Bulls traded an All Star to acquire, to think when his coach hands entitlement minutes to a 6-6 power forward who wouldn't be anything better than the 12th man on any other NBA team?

We've turned over the roster umpteen times. We've turned over coaching staffs. Nothing has changed, only the thick coat of losing that surrounds the organization has gotten just that much harder to scrape off. 

Obviously the Bulls aren't going to make a major change at this point in the season. I guess there's even a chance they could turn it around and reach some win total that people feel is respectable (personally, I couldn't agree more with the point articulated perfectly by Bama the other day--given what the team did in the offseason, the acquisition of Williams, and the assumed improvement of Curry and Chandler, it was not at all outrageous for us to expect 35-40 wins this year, maybe even get a sniff at an 8 seed). Regardless of what happens, there is something fundamentally wrong with the approach the Bulls are trying to take, and after all the smoke clears, the mess sits at Krause's feet.

I don't want to hear the typical "Rome wasn't built in a day" objections here, either. Right now, the construction site is empty and there isn't a soul at work.


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## Chops

Maybe we can get LeBron James.


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## ChuBerto

Alright, so I agree. As an additional effort to counter those "you guys are so fickle, so impatient, so ..." responses that are gonna show up here... how many of you really have confidence in Cartwright? Why? He was one of my favorite players back in the day. If you'll look back a week or so ago, I started a thread trying to justify BC's coaching. That's gone. The Bulls don't look like they're playing basketball out there, and it's painfully obvious that they know how, if only despite the calls from the bench.

So I'm calling the season a wash on one condition--BC continues to be incomprehensible. This means he continues playing "our future stars" (both "our" and "stars" deserving quotes) token snippets of movement on a short leash. He starts to make sense if 1) we start winning with our current rotation/playcalling/etc. 2) changes the rotation/playcalling/etc. _Even if_ BC's got some legitimate reason for what's going on out there, he's lost a lot of credibility. It's just really hard to buy that that's the best we can do with what we have. He really only has those two choices. It looks like he's hoping for the first. Don't hold your breath, Bill...


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## MikeDC

Well, I'm not ready to call it in and say Mr. Bill is a moron less than a quarter of the way through the season. Right now, there is a battle going on for the soul of this team. Look around the league over the last several years and the number of coaches who can convince a team's players to buy into his system is pretty slim. 

This league is full of players that effectively dictate to the coaches what ought to be done. When the going gets tough, the first choice of players seems to be to gripe about PT, the plays, etc. Only in rare cases I think, do players really seem to have bought into what the coaches say. Phil Jackson, Nate McMillon, Isiah Thomas (boy, I hate to admit that), Rick Carlisle, and Pat Riley are coaches that have their players convinced that their way is the right way. You can see it in the way their teams play, and the fact that even if things go bad, you don't hear a bunch of complaining about "run this or run that".

Cartwright doesn't have that respect from his players, and he's fighting to get it. What other option does he have than what he's doing? I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but he does have only limited means with which to prove his points. If everyone played as *HARD* as Trent, Lonny, and Fred, then Trent, Lonny, and Fred wouldn't be playing. The other guys have more talent, obviously. But that's the whole point. Cartwright is trying to get this team to suck it up, shut up, and play, and teach the lesson that they'll get PT when they work their butts off and do well, not when they stink it up and gripe.

So far, Tyson and Jamal seem to be learning that lesson. After griping early, Jamal has shut up, stepped up his play, and in turn, is getting more minutes. ERob, up until tonight's game, was doing the same.

Rose, after his horrendous game against the Lakers, doesn't need a message to keep his head down.

At least, this is the best defense I can come up with. On the other hand, it's possible that he'll push these kids too hard, and one of them will just plain snap, or that he'll totally loose the confidence of the team. It's a fine line, but what choice does he have?

Consider the alternative. If he just caved in as soon as player X and Y started to complain, he'd lose credibility immediately. Worse, who on this team, aside from maybe Rose and Marshall has earned any right to complain. These guys are unproven and at the moment not all that good on the court.


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## HAWK23

come on guys, so we SUCK on the road, atleast our games are competitive at home, when we get off this road trip and win a few games at home everyone's minds will change and we will go back to the "possible 35 win season" threads....


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## Bullsmaniac

The biggest problem w/ this team is HEART, HUSSLE, NASTINESS, and just SIMPLE FUNDAMENTALS.
I was against the offense however, 

When a team stands around and sees his teammate getting doubled and nobody comes to the ball to help out but INSTEAD allows that teammate to cause a TURNOVER because he is trying to force a pass in traffic while being doubled...THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG.

When there are 4 players on the other team w/ a hefty lead under the basket for a rebound while the Bulls STAND and watch their opponents grab the board...THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG!

When a defensive minded coach CANNOT teach his players to play some NASTINESS the entire game especially under the paint...THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG!

When the coach has to play 10 men to shut the complaining from HIS TEAM....THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG.

When NOBODY is running around trying to get open and asking for the ball....THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG!

When SCRUB players think they are starter material and demand a trade thinking they will get to start elsewhere....THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG!

When a 40 year guard out runs a 22 year old or younger....THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG!

When the coach keep preaching DEFENSE will get you time on the floor and does not yank somebody who can't guard a fly...THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG!

The only excuse this team keep bringing up is that they are very young! I've had it with the word "POTENTIAL" and the they have to gel etc.
They have to come out and play w/ HEART, HUSSLE and NASTY every single night!


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## GB

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> The Bulls 2002-2003 season is officially a wash. The 0-6 trip has firmly let the Bulls know where they belong, right back at the very bottom of the league, and it's quashed any optimism or progress built up by their fast start (a fluke, apparently).
> 
> Krause's rebuilding plan hasn't budged an inch from square one.


I think Krause has the players, and Cartwright is trying to _teach_ them now. The rebuilding is going ok...the fast start was triggered by defense and a disciplined offense. Those have evaporated.

I think the break, and some reflection will get things going. Lots of time left in this season

Remember---I'm the critical fan. I think there's some light at the end of the tunnel.


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## GB

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> Cartwright doesn't have that respect from his players, and he's fighting to get it. What other option does he have than what he's doing? I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but he does have only limited means with which to prove his points. If everyone played as *HARD* as Trent, Lonny, and Fred, then Trent, Lonny, and Fred wouldn't be playing. The other guys have more talent, obviously. But that's the whole point. Cartwright is trying to get this team to suck it up, shut up, and play, and teach the lesson that they'll get PT when they work their butts off and do well, not when they stink it up and gripe.
> 
> So far, Tyson and Jamal seem to be learning that lesson. After griping early, Jamal has shut up, stepped up his play, and in turn, is getting more minutes.


You reached the same conclusion that I did.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> Maybe we can get LeBron James.


Even the surest thing since a Nurse and a bottle of John Daniels would end up cloaked in failure in this sorry azzed franchise


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## Showtyme

We've got the right players. Maybe the Craw/Fizer/whoever else mess to be traded is one thing, but they aren't the nucleus of the team and that's a start. Jalen, Jay, Donyell, Eddy, and Tyson aren't headed anywhere. E-Rob is a Krause favorite, a big contract, and not desired by anyone else, so he's probably around for a while.

It's not more talent that we need. If we can pull a trade somewhere with Craw and Fizer for someone, then I think that would be a last piece to fall into the puzzle. But let's just see where the club goes from here on out.

The season a wash? Maybe. A place in the lottery? Probably. Should we be looking for yet another "potential" superstar, or should we fill a supporting role with our pick (probably around 3-7, regardless of our record)? Do we look in the direction of Carmelo Anthony (a rising superstar), or do we look in the direction of solid, more mature contributors like Emeka Okafor (shot-blocker and rebounder extraordinare) and Carlos Delfino (sweet shooter with great range and good defense)? 

Keep it simple, fill in the gaps. This year is FOUNDATION year... do what makes sense with this core, and then see where they need help (outside shooting, defense).

Let's say FOUNDATION year, rather than a "wash" year. "Wash" years sound like we're trying to land a high lottery pick, when really that's probably not the best thing for the team, unless they trade down.


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## ztect

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> Maybe we can get LeBron James.


Aleady counting lottery balls???


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## L.O.B

*Already Counting Lottery Balls*

..last I looked it's Novemeber 24th, isn't it that time to focus on next year?  

The only thing, other than team growth, that can happen positively for the Bulls this season is the firing of Krause. 4 years of crappy basketball is a enough. Over the last 4 seasons almost everything has changed with the Bulls except for Krause and the losing. Coincidence? 

Another year of crappy basketball, I can live with. Going into this season I had no expectations of the playoffs. For god sakes, when you have more _potential_ than NBA players, how can you expect great results? 

If you lower your expectations, you very rarely are dissapointed.

_For those who will bash me for my low expecations, they should see me post about the St Louis Cardinals. They have assembled great teams over the past 5 years and have continued to under achieve in the playoffs. I bash Larussa for his foolish decisions and then the baseball writers name him manager of the year._


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## truebluefan

This is a foundation year! Well said showtyme. We have players on this team that has not played long! True, we have Brunson, Blount, Rose and Marshall, they are experienced but other than that, the rest of the players have less than two years experience each!! 

Add to the fact that any team that goes out west has a difficult time winning. Im not making excuses, mind you, because i knew we were not a playoff team this year. 32 wins is still on track! Eleven game increase from last year is pretty good, considering we are bringing along two hs players at the same time, in the starting lineup!! That has never been done before. 

A wash? If we lose at home, the way we lost out west, then yes, it would be a wash. But i am holding on to 32 wins, this year and playoff contenders next year with the right additions.


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## johnston797

OT - I looked at the math and don't see us on the way to 32 wins.

Is the season a wash?

The schedule has been very brutal but I was looking for more this year.

However, this could turnaround with one good week. Bill gets more time from me. I will be very concerned if we are in the same place in a another dozen games. And i would have liked to see some more adjustments by now. Seems like the only major change has been the elimination of Fizer from the rotation to the betterment of Baxter.

If the season is a wash, Jerry K must go.


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## truebluefan

that might be true if one does the math, but keep in mind 4 out of every 14 games we play from here on out will not include 4 road games in five nights out west either!


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## chifaninca

The season is a wash, though I am not sure we should've ex[ected much less. They are very young and as the Lakers found out one star doesn't make a team.

We lose becuase our young guys are still learning how to play the game of PROFESSIONAL basketball.

We lose because we fall apart at critical junctures. Last nite we had an opportunity for a four point play. Curry misses two free throws, then we don't score on the out of bounds play. A 6 point turn around. Williams pulls up on a momentum building breakaway play and misses the three foot jumper, Utah turns around and completes a two point play on the breakaway cause of our miss.

Things like that are daggers that we don't have the fortitidue to stand up against.

Curry doesn't grab rebounds our play defense with any intensity at all. How many times does a rebound get away from him? Damn, someone should tell him there's a lot more to basketball than just using your big body to dunk and slam home home a 3 footer. 

The offense sucks. Our players are too young and to scared in the offense. When the game gets out of hand, you see Chandler and Curry and Williams hitting shots with much more ease and confidence.

Jalen Rose, Jalen is clearly frustrated. Donyell - Damn, he's fun to watch and if it weren't for his butterfingers would have atleast 20 more points this season. Donyell has been the star and rock of this team.

Starting line-up should be:

C - Curry
PF - Marshall
SF - Rose
SG - Hassell
PG - Williams


Rotated in:

Chandler
Baxter
Robinson
Crawford


Waive towels:

Hoiberg, Fizer, Blount

Final Thought: Cartwright is definitely struggling with his coaching and team. IMHO, Guys are just not responding to what he and his coaches are preaching. His rotations frustrate everyone and have no pattern. Guys need to feel conifdent that a mistake or two won't land them on the bench for the rest of the game. Once and for all, the Bulls are fundamentally a poor basketball team. Poor free throw shooting, bad undisciplined fouls, lazy defense,no rebounding......I need a few days off from Bulls basketball......

Love Da Bulls........growing impatient!


Chifaninca


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## Wynn

Some thoughts to keep sanity on this board:

*Bulls Opponents so far:*

Dallas 13-0 *1st in West* (2002 Western semi-Finals)
Sacramento 11-4 *2nd in West* (2002 Western Finals)
New Jersey 10-4 *2nd in East* (2002 NBA Finals)
New Orleans 10-3 (twice) *4th in East* (2002 Eastern Semi-Finals)
Boston 9-4 (twice) *5th in East* (2002 Eastern Finals)
Milwaukee 6-5 *7th in East*
Utah 7-7 *6th in West* (2002 Western Playoffs)
Atlanta 6-7 
Toronto 4-8 (2002 Eastern Playoffs)
LALakers 4-9 (2002 NBA Champions)
Golden State 4-10
Memphis 1-13

Bulls have only played three games against teams which were not in last year's play-offs or will not be in this year's play-offs.

Bulls have been the away team in 9 of their first 14 games.

Bulls tied for worst record in the league last season.

Three of Bulls' top ten contributors are new to the team.

Two of Bulls top ten contributors are rookies.

Bulls are still learning how to play with each other.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Despite all of this, the Bulls have taken significantly more shots than their opponents in all but five of their games. Shots fall, Bulls win.

I'm not going to to say "you guys are so fickle, so impatient, so.....", but what did you expect? Schedule is brutal, and we are still not a good basketball team. The ship will right itself sometime in the next quarter season, and come second half, we'll be coming out guns ablazing. To extrapolate our record out over the rest of the season would be foolish. When will we see another stretch so brutal? We haven't yet seen Miami, New York, LAClip, Cleveland etc. who are living in the bottom of the league, and we have beaten three quality teams in New Jersey, Boston, and New Orleans.

*Go Bulls!*

:rbanana: :wbanana: :rbanana: :wbanana: :rbanana:


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## TomBoerwinkle#1

Yes, indeed its true. The Bulls are not stringing together wins so far this season.

But I don't think the Bulls need to hang their heads low and slink back to Deerfield in shame. I don't think fans need to start the "woe is me, we still blow" moaning. And I don't think their record to date is cause to be screaming for heads and for team-dismantling panic trades. YET.

And sure, a 4-10 start projects out to about a 23 win season.

But I still believe 30+ wins is an attainable goal. IF we get some focus.

True, Eddy needs to step up on defense, Tyson needs to show confidence on offense and more consistant play on defense, Jay needs to make better decisions at the point and develop a reliable shot. Yes, the whole team needs to attain a comfort level with the triangle, if that's going to be the primary offense. You're right, BC needs to do a better job managing the rotation.

But the season is young and so is the team. I still believe that this is a team loaded with talent, and a team with the potential to develop into greatness. But that is two seasons down the road. 14 games in, and this young team is still working the bugs out of the system. They've won 4 games. They've been in a position to win several more, but were too inexperienced to pull it together. Learn to finish out games and to avoid periods of sleepwalking and digging holes for yourself, and things really start to look different.

The Bulls haven't won on the circus road trip in 4 years. But remember: the MJ era Bulls dreaded that trip, and not just because Phil handed out his crazy books. Now that stretch of games will be behind this team. They may still continue to flounder a bit, but if EC, TC, JWill, JCraw and the rest are willing to learn from their mistakes, work hard in practice and play hard in games, I can see this team putting together a competitive second half of the season.

Maybe I'm just being a "homer" but I don't think so. What I see as the primary thing wrong with the Bulls is a lack of an on court leader who will keep the team focused and motivated to win. If someone steps forward and proves to be up to that task, I think we'd see immediate and dramatic improvement. Offcourt, maybe that's BC's biggest problem as well. He doesn't seem able to get the fire brewing in this team's belly. He shouldn't have to -- a pro shouldn't need motivation to chew through iron bars if that's what it takes to win -- but that kind of motivation is clearly lacking on the Bulls. Focus and effort -- put them together, rack up 30 W's by the end of the season, make sure everyone's on the same page by the end of the season and ready for '03/'04. Achieve these goals and the season is not "a wash."


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## FJ_of _Rockaway

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> Yes, indeed its true. The Bulls are not stringing together wins so far this season.
> 
> But I don't think the Bulls need to hang their heads low and slink back to Deerfield in shame. I don't think fans need to start the "woe is me, we still blow" moaning. And I don't think their record to date is cause to be screaming for heads and for team-dismantling panic trades. YET.
> 
> And sure, a 4-10 start projects out to about a 23 win season.
> 
> But I still believe 30+ wins is an attainable goal. IF we get some focus.
> 
> True, Eddy needs to step up on defense, Tyson needs to show confidence on offense and more consistant play on defense, Jay needs to make better decisions at the point and develop a reliable shot. Yes, the whole team needs to attain a comfort level with the triangle, if that's going to be the primary offense. You're right, BC needs to do a better job managing the rotation.
> 
> But the season is young and so is the team. I still believe that this is a team loaded with talent, and a team with the potential to develop into greatness. But that is two seasons down the road. 14 games in, and this young team is still working the bugs out of the system. They've won 4 games. They've been in a position to win several more, but were too inexperienced to pull it together. Learn to finish out games and to avoid periods of sleepwalking and digging holes for yourself, and things really start to look different.
> 
> The Bulls haven't won on the circus road trip in 4 years. But remember: the MJ era Bulls dreaded that trip, and not just because Phil handed out his crazy books. Now that stretch of games will be behind this team. They may still continue to flounder a bit, but if EC, TC, JWill, JCraw and the rest are willing to learn from their mistakes, work hard in practice and play hard in games, I can see this team putting together a competitive second half of the season.
> 
> Maybe I'm just being a "homer" but I don't think so. What I see as the primary thing wrong with the Bulls is a lack of an on court leader who will keep the team focused and motivated to win. If someone steps forward and proves to be up to that task, I think we'd see immediate and dramatic improvement. Offcourt, maybe that's BC's biggest problem as well. He doesn't seem able to get the fire brewing in this team's belly. He shouldn't have to -- a pro shouldn't need motivation to chew through iron bars if that's what it takes to win -- but that kind of motivation is clearly lacking on the Bulls. Focus and effort -- put them together, rack up 30 W's by the end of the season, make sure everyone's on the same page by the end of the season and ready for '03/'04. Achieve these goals and the season is not "a wash."


I think it is how we are losing and the type of ball we are playing .

Pretty uninspiring

The team seems to have a weak pulse right now

Obstinance on both sides of the Mgt / player divide ( and I use that word purposefully ) seem to take any impetus out of a constructive approach to the way the games are being played


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## ChuBerto

> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> 
> 
> I think it is how we are losing and the type of ball we are playing .
> 
> Pretty uninspiring
> 
> The team seems to have a weak pulse right now
> 
> Obstinance on both sides of the Mgt / player divide ( and I use that word purposefully ) seem to take any impetus out of a constructive approach to the way the games are being played


Precisely my point. Honestly, I'm thrilled with our record. The losses don't faze me at all. I understand that our skill level isn't up there yet. However, this doesn't mean we have to play _frustrating_ basketball. This doesn't mean that we should see substitutions and an offense that confuses--if this messageboard is any indication--a good deal of the fan base. The losses are fine, if I can understand them. Personally, though, I'm frustrated because I don't get what I'm seeing on the court.


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## truebluefan

4-10 seems to be right on target with many predictions to start the season. Yet now its unnaceptable? I think the wins against Boston and NJ, had us thinking more positive than we should have.


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## DaBullz

<PRE>
NETS G MIN PPG RPG APG OFF- DEF- TOT AST STL BLK TO PF
Jason Kidd 14 507 20.5 6.6 8.8 17- 76- 93 123 31 3 55 26
Kenyon Martin 14 447 13.5 6.4 1.5 12- 77- 89 21 16 12 28 51
Richard Jefferson 14 420 13.4 5.1 2.2 17- 54- 71 31 17 12 28 26
Kerry Kittles 14 393 12.5 3.3 3.0 15- 31- 46 42 26 6 13 16
Lucious Harris 14 321 10.0 2.6 1.8 8- 28- 36 25 7 0 11 15

CELTICS G MIN PPG RPG APG OFF- DEF- TOT AST STL BLK TO PF
Paul Pierce 13 529 24.7 8.4 4.9 27- 82- 109 64 26 13 45 38
Antoine Walker 13 545 20.9 7.9 5.2 13- 90- 103 68 29 9 43 37
Tony Delk 12 412 12.8 3.9 2.9 8- 39- 47 35 19 1 14 29
Shammond Williams 13 355 11.3 2.8 3.2 3- 34- 37 42 20 1 21 30

BUCKS G MIN PPG RPG APG OFF- DEF- TOT AST STL BLK TO PF
Ray Allen 11 376 23.6 4.4 2.3 10- 38- 48 25 14 1 29 40
Sam Cassell 11 355 17.2 3.8 5.1 9- 33- 42 56 8 2 24 31
Michael Redd 11 280 13.9 4.2 1.3 12- 34- 46 14 8 1 12 21
Toni Kukoc 11 317 12.2 4.3 3.8 16- 31- 47 42 21 5 17 29
Tim Thomas 11 325 10.8 5.0 1.8 10- 45- 55 20 14 7 22 32

BULLS G MIN PPG RPG APG OFF- DEF- TOT AST STL BLK TO PF
Jalen Rose 14 508 21.9 3.6 3.9 13- 37- 50 55 5 5 42 44
Donyell Marshall 14 431 15.0 10.8 1.1 55- 96- 151 15 20 15 26 33
Jay Williams 14 436 10.9 4.2 5.4 5- 54- 59 76 23 2 36 40
Tyson Chandler 14 285 8.4 5.1 0.9 23- 48- 71 12 5 19 20 33
</PRE>

I post these numbers because it shows something I find important. The teams with winning, or even break-even records simply have at least one more scorer than the Bulls have.

I've seen people bash Rose, Cartwright, the triangle, the rotation, etc. The problem simply lies with the talent and the performance. We, as fans, get caught up in the potential of high draft picks and when the immediate performance of these really young kids isn't good enough to win on a regular basis give up hope and assess blame for all the wrong reasons.

This team is so much better than last year's team. It's at least an interesting team to watch, and the off-court issues are just fine.

Kobe Bryant played 26 minutes per game in his second year. In years 3 through 5, he played in 50, 66, and 68 games. How PJax handled his rise as a player should be the textbook for how BC manages our youngsters. Kobe whined and complained, just as some of our guys do. In the end, he turned out to be the best player in the NBA.

If BC started and played our young players and just gave them minutes for the sake of "development," what we might end up with is an Eddie Curry who never will become a good defender or rebounder, a Tyson Chandler who never scores 10ppg, etc. What Cartwright is doing is absolutely the right thing. And we're going to take our lumps in the process. So be it.

In the mean time, this team can still win a lot of ball games. I am convinced that we're short a veteran scorer or two - one or two guys who can put up 20ppg if they play 42 minutes/game. Someone to keep opponents from triple teaming Rose, knowing that ERob and Hassell and Hoiberg and even JWill aren't going to be putting up (or in) enough shots to hurt them.

And, in the mean time, a real fan will be a real fan and support the team, its players (including Rose), and its coach.

My $.02


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## local_sportsfan

OT but how in the hell did you get those stats to come out so perfectly?


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## Maestro

A thread like this one only confirms what I suspected all along. That Bulls fans are indeed among the most passionate in the world when it comes to analyzing bball in general, and their team in particular. All the arguments and discussions in this thread are pretty well thought out. They seem to lack only one thing, PATIENCE. For Gods sake people ease off the PANIC button. It's early days yet for this season, this part of the rebuilding process, for most of our players, and indeed for Mr. Bill as a coach. Most us have only ourselves to blame for snapping. We are starting 2 2nd year players and rookie fer Christs sake. Relax, take a deep breath, there don't you feel better already?


This season, this team and the other issues people have brought up on this thread will shake themselves out. They always do.


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## The Truth

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> I was going to wait to post this until after the completion of the road trip, but there's so little doubt in my mind the Bulls will get throttled in Dallas and Boston (a game I'm stupidly suffering through a day-before-Tgiving trip to see in person), I thought I'd get it out of the way now.
> 
> The Bulls 2002-2003 season is officially a wash. The 0-6 trip has firmly let the Bulls know where they belong, right back at the very bottom of the league, and it's quashed any optimism or progress built up by their fast start (a fluke, apparently).
> 
> Krause's rebuilding plan hasn't budged an inch from square one. Sure, you can point to players like Curry, Chandler, Williams, and Crawford as being huge assets, but you'll have to first convince me that they aren't already plotting escape routes from what's become the NBA's lunatic asylum.
> 
> What else is a 19-year-old to do when by all outward appearances his coach harbors an odd personal resentment against him? What is one of the most highly polished, basketball-savvy lead guard prospects to enter the league in a good long while to think when his coach unbendingly runs an offense that's perversely ill-suited to his abilities? What is the team's best shooter, a long and quick 6-5 guard, to think when his coach almost childishly refuses to even entertain the notion of giving him minutes at the off-guard? What is a 20-year-old, who the Bulls traded an All Star to acquire, to think when his coach hands entitlement minutes to a 6-6 power forward who wouldn't be anything better than the 12th man on any other NBA team?
> 
> We've turned over the roster umpteen times. We've turned over coaching staffs. Nothing has changed, only the thick coat of losing that surrounds the organization has gotten just that much harder to scrape off.
> 
> Obviously the Bulls aren't going to make a major change at this point in the season. I guess there's even a chance they could turn it around and reach some win total that people feel is respectable (personally, I couldn't agree more with the point articulated perfectly by Bama the other day--given what the team did in the offseason, the acquisition of Williams, and the assumed improvement of Curry and Chandler, it was not at all outrageous for us to expect 35-40 wins this year, maybe even get a sniff at an 8 seed). Regardless of what happens, there is something fundamentally wrong with the approach the Bulls are trying to take, and after all the smoke clears, the mess sits at Krause's feet.
> 
> I don't want to hear the typical "Rome wasn't built in a day" objections here, either. Right now, the construction site is empty and there isn't a soul at work.



Great post, I absolutely agree with everything you said.


----------



## DaBullz

> Originally posted by <b>local_sportsfan</b>!
> OT but how in the hell did you get those stats to come out so perfectly?


I copied the stats into notepad and aligned them nicely there.

Then I copy/paste from notepad into the edit window on this site.

I put <PRE> and </PRE> tags around it. Lines up every time.

What I see others do is use tables. I'm not sure if those HTML tags just work or what...


----------



## BamaBull

*Last time I looked....*



> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> This is a foundation year! Well said showtyme. We have players on this team that has not played long! True, we have Brunson, Blount, Rose and Marshall, they are experienced but other than that, the rest of the players have less than two years experience each!!
> 
> Add to the fact that any team that goes out west has a difficult time winning. Im not making excuses, mind you, because i knew we were not a playoff team this year. 32 wins is still on track! Eleven game increase from last year is pretty good, considering we are bringing along two hs players at the same time, in the starting lineup!! That has never been done before.
> 
> A wash? If we lose at home, the way we lost out west, then yes, it would be a wash. But i am holding on to 32 wins, this year and playoff contenders next year with the right additions.



.....atlanta, toronto and getting clobbered by boston is NOT out west.

anyone can make excuses for this franchise, lord knows we have been hearing enough of them for some time now. 

someone tell me again WHY trent hassell is getting so many minutes?

so, are you optimists saying these guys are actually putting up shots, not trying to make them??? All these bricks we have seen thrown up on this road trip were done on purpose??? These guys are NOT as bad a shooting team as their FG % WOULD indicate?

WHAT then, if they are not missing on purpose, is their excuse? I would really love to hear this explanation.

NO ONE wants this team to be better than I....but I am growing EVER weary of this organizations inability to put a winner on the court....again.:clap:


----------



## ScottMay

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> I was going to wait to post this until after the completion of the road trip, but there's so little doubt in my mind the Bulls will get throttled in Dallas and Boston (a game I'm stupidly suffering through a day-before-Tgiving trip to see in person), I thought I'd get it out of the way now.
> 
> The Bulls 2002-2003 season is officially a wash. The 0-6 trip has firmly let the Bulls know where they belong, right back at the very bottom of the league, and it's quashed any optimism or progress built up by their fast start (a fluke, apparently).
> 
> Krause's rebuilding plan hasn't budged an inch from square one. Sure, you can point to players like Curry, Chandler, Williams, and Crawford as being huge assets, but you'll have to first convince me that they aren't already plotting escape routes from what's become the NBA's lunatic asylum.
> 
> What else is a 19-year-old to do when by all outward appearances his coach harbors an odd personal resentment against him? What is one of the most highly polished, basketball-savvy lead guard prospects to enter the league in a good long while to think when his coach unbendingly runs an offense that's perversely ill-suited to his abilities? What is the team's best shooter, a long and quick 6-5 guard, to think when his coach almost childishly refuses to even entertain the notion of giving him minutes at the off-guard? What is a 20-year-old, who the Bulls traded an All Star to acquire, to think when his coach hands entitlement minutes to a 6-6 power forward who wouldn't be anything better than the 12th man on any other NBA team?
> 
> We've turned over the roster umpteen times. We've turned over coaching staffs. Nothing has changed, only the thick coat of losing that surrounds the organization has gotten just that much harder to scrape off.
> 
> Obviously the Bulls aren't going to make a major change at this point in the season. I guess there's even a chance they could turn it around and reach some win total that people feel is respectable (personally, I couldn't agree more with the point articulated perfectly by Bama the other day--given what the team did in the offseason, the acquisition of Williams, and the assumed improvement of Curry and Chandler, it was not at all outrageous for us to expect 35-40 wins this year, maybe even get a sniff at an 8 seed). Regardless of what happens, there is something fundamentally wrong with the approach the Bulls are trying to take, and after all the smoke clears, the mess sits at Krause's feet.
> 
> I don't want to hear the typical "Rome wasn't built in a day" objections here, either. Right now, the construction site is empty and there isn't a soul at work.


Just wanted to bump this and make a couple of additional observations:

--This team won't improve one iota until ownership, management, or the coaching staff decides to stop the insanity and quit trying to jam the square peg that is the triangle offense into the round hole that is our personnel. Our offense is so predictable and ill-conceived it's hurting our defense. How many times do the Bulls not find a good shot, force up some garbage against the shot clock, and have a fast-break finish run down their throats? Enough is enough--the triangle only works with elite personnel, and the championship Bulls/Lakers didn't/don't run the triangle anywhere close to 100% of the time anyway. 

--This team won't win more games than last year until Jalen Rose decides he wants to play a modicum of defense. Any time his man has the ball he either scores or causes a massive breakdown that leads to someone else scoring. Until Jalen shores up things on that end, his offensive output is almost irrelevant. I'm sorry to hold him to such a high standard, but keep in mind Krause traded away two young All-Stars to get the guy. Shouldn't we expect a little bit of two-way play?

--Eddy Curry is going to opt for unrestricted free agency and subsequently bolt to another team quicker than you can say "franchise cornerstone." I can't blame him considering there isn't a single play in the offense designed to get him the ball where he can do something with it.


----------



## DaBullz

If this team brings the same intensity to all its games from now on, and a similar player rotation, it will be closer to .500 by the end of January than one might think.

I, too, am going to revive a couple of posts from an older thread. I'm updating the teams' records in the schedule portions of my posts:

The Bulls are 3-2 at home, and 3-5 vs. teams from the east.

They face two difficult games for the remainder of this month:

Nov. 27 at Boston (9-4)
Nov. 30 at Dallas (13-0)

<B>If they lose both, they'll have a 4-12 record</B>
[ my note: we did lose both, as expected ]

However, December's schedule looks better for the Bulls:

Dec. 3 New Orleans (was 10-4, 11-5, just lost to the Knicks!)
Dec. 4 at Cleveland (was 2-12, 2-15)
Dec. 6 at Toronto (was 4-9, 5-10)
Dec. 7 Cleveland (was 2-12, 2-15)
Dec. 10 Orlando (was 8-7, 9-7)
Dec. 12 Detroit (was 11-3, 12-4)
Dec. 14 Milwaukee (was 6-7, 7-8)
Dec. 16 Boston (was 9-4, 10-5)
Dec. 18 Toronto (was 4-9, 5-10)
Dec. 23 New Jersey (10-6)
Dec. 27 Minnesota (9-8)
Dec. 28 San Antonio (10-7)
Dec. 31 Portland (7-7)

If we beat Cleveland twice, Toronto twice, and Milwaukee, we would improve our record to 9-16. If we beat Orlando, it goes to 10-15. Our only two road games are against teams with records similar or worse than ours.

We could be half way to last season's win total by Christmas.

------

While I'm looking at the schedule, January looks good, too:

Jan 2 Washington (was 6-7, 6-9)
Jan 4 Cleveland (was 2-12, 2-15)
Jan 6 Utah (was 7-7, is 9-7)
Jan 8 at Washington (was 6-7, is 6-9)
Jan 10 at Milwaukee (was 6-7, is 7-8)
Jan 13 New York (2-10)
Jan 14 at New York (was 2-10, is 4-10)
(was No teams with a winning record for 7 straight games, now is one team with a winning record)
Jan 17 at New Orleans (was 10-4, is 11-5)
Jan 18 at Miami (was 2-10, is 3-12)
Jan 20 at Atlanta (was 6-7, is 8-8)
Jan 22 at Orlando (was 8-7, is 9-7)
Jan 24 Washington (was 6-7, is 6-9)
Jan 26 Houston (was 7-5, is 9-6)
Jan 29 at LA Clippers (was 5-9, 6-11)
Jan 31 at Portland (was 6-7, is 7-7)

That's 15 games, 12 against teams with < .500 records (at this point in the season)

The following scenario is not out of the question:

Win 5, Lose 8 December, overall record = 9-20
Win 12, Lose 3 January, overall record = 21-23


----------



## ScottMay

I don't want this to be construed as a personal attack, but if you think that this team as currently constructed can put together a 12-3 month (with or without qualifications), your belfry needs to be checked for bats.


----------



## DaBullz

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> I don't want this to be construed as a personal attack, but if you think that this team as currently constructed can put together a 12-3 month (with or without qualifications), your belfry needs to be checked for bats.


If we play as good as we did tonight, there's no reason we can't beat sub-.500 teams on a regular basis.

12-3 is in the reallm of possibility. Perhaps likely, perhaps not. We'll know better after we see if they can sustain the intensity while playing at home in front of cheering fans, sleeping in our own beds at our homes, etc.

Certainly, if we have 9 or 10 wins by Jan. 1, it looks better. I suggest we use that as a measure of "if" we've improved.


----------



## ScottMay

bump

(I want to read more posts about how we'll be .500 by the All Star break.)

This team is every bit as hapless as Tim Floyd's worst. The two upcoming games against Cleveland, at least one of which we'll lose, are going to be hilarious.


----------



## Maestro

*what he said....*



> Originally posted by <b>Maestro</b>!
> A thread like this one only confirms what I suspected all along. That Bulls fans are indeed among the most passionate in the world when it comes to analyzing bball in general, and their team in particular. All the arguments and discussions in this thread are pretty well thought out. They seem to lack only one thing, PATIENCE. For Gods sake people ease off the PANIC button. It's early days yet for this season, this part of the rebuilding process, for most of our players, and indeed for Mr. Bill as a coach. Most us have only ourselves to blame for snapping. We are starting 2 2nd year players and rookie fer Christs sake. Relax, take a deep breath, there don't you feel better already?
> 
> 
> This season, this team and the other issues people have brought up on this thread will shake themselves out. They always do.



:stupid:


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> bump
> 
> (I want to read more posts about how we'll be .500 by the All Star break.)
> 
> This team is every bit as hapless as Tim Floyd's worst. The two upcoming games against Cleveland, at least one of which we'll lose, are going to be hilarious.


at least pink got the guys to play hard(although play clueless nontheless) which was the personality of the tim floyd bulls, with BC we are playling like we dont even care


----------



## DaBullz

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> bump
> 
> (I want to read more posts about how we'll be .500 by the All Star break.)
> 
> This team is every bit as hapless as Tim Floyd's worst. The two upcoming games against Cleveland, at least one of which we'll lose, are going to be hilarious.


And I want to see you explain how this team is supposed to beat a team that is 12-6.

I wrote:

<B>Certainly, if we have 9 or 10 wins by Jan. 1, it looks better. I suggest we use that as a measure of "if" we've improved.</B>

Is it Jan 1. yet?


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> And I want to see you explain how this team is supposed to beat a team that is 12-6.
> 
> I wrote:
> 
> <B>Certainly, if we have 9 or 10 wins by Jan. 1, it looks better. I suggest we use that as a measure of "if" we've improved.</B>
> 
> Is it Jan 1. yet?


because their franchise point guard in Baron Davis was out and not to mention that that hornets are 2-6 on the road, their record reflects their relatively favorable schedule so far


----------



## DaBullz

Five of six of New Orleans' road losses came against:
Detroit (12-5), Atlanta (8-9), Philadelphia (14-4), New York (5-10), Boston (12-5).

Combined record 43-23.

We beat them for our 2nd win of the season, real early on.


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> Five of six of New Orleans' road losses came against:
> Detroit (12-5), Atlanta (8-9), Philadelphia (14-4), New York (5-10), Boston (12-5).
> 
> Combined record 43-23.
> 
> We beat them for our 2nd win of the season, real early on.


their franchise point guard was out which made it a very winnable game though


----------



## DaBullz

FWIW,

We played almost 3 quarters of very good basketball. Rose was hot. JWill was playing great. Curry earned extra playing time. Even Crawford played a better game than usual.

If you go back and look at my calculus for how the Bulls can get to 23-26 by end of January, I didn't count on winning any of the last three games.

My hope is that Cartwright gained enough insight about the chemistry of the team, as the minutes were doled out tonight, to make the required adjustments.

With 2:57 left in the 3rd Quarter, the score was 71-65. Just a six point lead.

With 2:00 left in the 3rd Quarter, the score was 77-65. A 12 point lead.

At the end of the 3rd, it was 83-67, a 16 point lead.

The Bulls scored just 2 points with that lineup in the game, and was a sieve on defense.

And, FWIW, Chandler had a sore back and couldn't play very much (or well). 20 of NO's first 22 points were in the paint...


----------



## BamaBull

*This is a rhetorical statement(doesn't need a reply & I would rather no one would)*



> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> I post these numbers because it shows something I find important. The teams with winning, or even break-even records simply have at least one more scorer than the Bulls have.
> 
> I've seen people bash Rose, Cartwright, the triangle, the rotation, etc. The problem simply lies with the talent and the performance. We, as fans, get caught up in the potential of high draft picks and when the immediate performance of these really young kids isn't good enough to win on a regular basis give up hope and assess blame for all the wrong reasons.
> 
> This team is so much better than last year's team. It's at least an interesting team to watch, and the off-court issues are just fine.
> 
> Kobe Bryant played 26 minutes per game in his second year. In years 3 through 5, he played in 50, 66, and 68 games. How PJax handled his rise as a player should be the textbook for how BC manages our youngsters. Kobe whined and complained, just as some of our guys do. In the end, he turned out to be the best player in the NBA.
> 
> If BC started and played our young players and just gave them minutes for the sake of "development," what we might end up with is an Eddie Curry who never will become a good defender or rebounder, a Tyson Chandler who never scores 10ppg, etc. What Cartwright is doing is absolutely the right thing. And we're going to take our lumps in the process. So be it.
> 
> In the mean time, this team can still win a lot of ball games. I am convinced that we're short a veteran scorer or two - one or two guys who can put up 20ppg if they play 42 minutes/game. Someone to keep opponents from triple teaming Rose, knowing that ERob and Hassell and Hoiberg and even JWill aren't going to be putting up (or in) enough shots to hurt them.
> 
> And, in the mean time, a real fan will be a real fan and support the team, its players (including Rose), and its coach.
> 
> My $.02


 IF I had time, I would look up how many times I (as well as a few others)have posted that this is THE sorriest FG% shooting team in the league for quite a few years now? You are not providing us with a revelation here, however, the stats that you posted are appreciated and prove me and others correct. Its not just ROSE(he has become a selfish player), AND the triangle(this is just not suited for NEW NBA players, at least players without the intellect to understand it as Jordan and the other Bulls became to), but it is also FT %. This team, as I will say it again, LACKS in basketball fundamentals. It is far difficult to produce within the triangle IF you do NOT have the fundamentals at least under control.

I am not a long winded poster, as I have stated before, however I have posted this shooting problem within the Bulls team many, many times.....just not in detail, or with "extensive" examples as your post provides.(thank you)

Also, I have seen this statement before on this board posted by more than one......"And, in the mean time, a real fan, will be a real fan and support the team, its players (including Rose), and its coach." 

It is NOT the right, nor place, or responsibility, for any other fan, on this board or elsewhere, to dictate what a real fan is. WE are ALL fans. We ALL choose how WE as individuals wish to be fans. We all wish the Bulls were a better team. My kind of fan, your kind of fan, neither is the best to the other type fan. Whether we are "fans" who post one liners, or a short novel, what each fan has to say is important to at least THAT fan, and thats what having a board is all about, being able to voice our opinions concerning this team.(Without rebuke from others?) The ONLY time we should become agitated with another Bulls poster is when personal attacks are involved. The real fan posts here on a daily basis. I would leave that classification of a real fan, alone. 


MY suggestion is, if we as posters see a thread that turns our stomach, that we should all just take the "high" road and ignor it. Like Retro or BCH once said (only once? LOL) if ya cannot say anything nice to each other, then just shut up! lol 

Just my feelings.


----------



## BamaBull

*In all honesty Scott....*



> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> bump
> 
> (I want to read more posts about how we'll be .500 by the All Star break.)
> 
> This team is every bit as hapless as Tim Floyd's worst. The two upcoming games against Cleveland, at least one of which we'll lose, are going to be hilarious.


I do not see the Bulls even beating cleveland. this teams fundamentals and team chemistry is so outta whack, I would not be surprised, if cleveland might be the only team, by the end of the year, that we will have a better record than....

This team has seen its last days as a .500 or better team since their record was 2-2.


----------



## DaBullz

> Originally posted by <b>Maestro</b>!
> A thread like this one only confirms what I suspected all along. That Bulls fans are indeed among the most passionate in the world when it comes to analyzing bball in general, and their team in particular. All the arguments and discussions in this thread are pretty well thought out. They seem to lack only one thing, PATIENCE. For Gods sake people ease off the PANIC button. It's early days yet for this season, this part of the rebuilding process, for most of our players, and indeed for Mr. Bill as a coach. Most us have only ourselves to blame for snapping. We are starting 2 2nd year players and rookie fer Christs sake. Relax, take a deep breath, there don't you feel better already?
> 
> 
> This season, this team and the other issues people have brought up on this thread will shake themselves out. They always do.


Great post.


----------



## DaBullz

*About the stats/numbers*

edited by BamaBull

http://commhum.mccneb.edu/argument/summary.htm

This URL is a tutorial on critical thinking; or making a logical argument. The basic gist of it is that an argument is a "specific position" and "supporting evidence." I'm not at all lecturing anyone on logic, but rather offering this as an explanation about MY reasoning in MY posts. Maybe you find this link helpful, maybe not.

I'd guess half the time I post raw data for no reason other than it is interesting and it may be "supporting evidence" for others' "specific positions." The other half, it's supporting evidence for my observations.

In the case of the "specific position" that "Rose is a selfish player," I've seen two kinds of "supporting evidence." 

One kind is, "Rose refuses to pass to JWill." Well, this is actually a provable thesis. Watch a game, count the touches by Rose, cound the times you think he SHOULD pass to JWill. You get a % and you can claim that X% is too low. I know for a fact that the Bulls internally keep this kind of statistic (they hire statisticians to do these kinds of things), but the data is not going to be easily found on the WWW. In fact, I have a friend who is a hired consultant for several NBA teams to collect and tabulate this very kind of data (touches, etc.).

The other kind is, "Rose had some sort of problem with Tinsley in Indy, so he must be having some sort of related problem with JWill here." Now here's the rub, at least from my perspective.... It's not a sound argument to use a specific position to support a specific position; a hypothesis to support a hypothesis... This whole case shows no causal relationship between Rose and Tinsley, and Rose and JWill. And it simply smacks of psychoanalysis. If you are a trained psychoanalyst, and say so, it would highly support this argument...

Someone who has any experience with logic is going to look at the thesis and the supporting evidence. The supporting evidence should ALWAYS be taken with a great dose of skepticism! Is the thesis TRUE if the supporting evidence doesn't support it at all? In the case of "Rose has problems with Tinsley and JWill," I look at other information that exists. Particularly that Rose played with Travis Best on both the Pacers and Bulls, had no problems with him, and actually performed better on both teams. So I come to the conclusion, and based upon supporting evidence, that if there's any causal relationship between Tinsley and JWil, it's that neither (or both) as young/inexperienced point guards make their teammates better players, while Best as an experienced player DOES.

Then there's the converse argument: "Rose is an unselfish player." What is the supporting evidence for this? Numerous statements he's made in the press, numerous statements made by the press (who've talked to Rose on a daily basis) saying "Rose is JWill's biggest supporter" and the like. There's stats (data) that indicates Rose gets less playing time (and doesn't complain about it) than other teams' goto guys, and certainly takes few shots in the first half of games when the twin towers were getting their playing time. Overall, he takes far too few shots, IMO, to be considered selfish.

I was reading on the WWW last night about Rose's tenure on the Pacers. The guy is a clutch scorer. Numbers like 38 pts in NBA championship games. Articles that talked about how Rose was part of a team that played agressive defense.

From all I've seen (and experienced as a player) of basketball, when a scorer like Rose (or Jordan or Finley or whoever) gets in the zone, experienced players get the ball to the scorer and let him shoot. They even let him shoot when he's cold, knowing he's going to get hot again, sooner or later. If there's anything I've seen about Rose and this Bulls team, he gets hot, gets off a nice little run of points, and then the team stops feeding him the ball. SO WHAT IF HE DEMANDS THE BALL FROM JWILL IN THIS CIRCUMSTANCE? It's all about teaching the kid how the adults play the game.

A similar argument that I've seen made, is that "Cartwright is too inexperienced to be coaching an inexperienced team." I guess you can look at the team's record and use that as supporting evidence. But is it really? Can ANYONE coach THIS team to more victories? It can't be proven... On the other hand, we can look at other coaches and situations where inexperienced coaches have coached inexperienced teams, or experienced coaches have coached inexperienced teams. In the first case, I brought up Pat Riley and Phil Jackson, who had very similar experience before coaching the lakers and bulls, respectively. Similar experience to Cartwright... I'd add that Isaiah Thomas is another example of an inexperienced coach with a very young team. In Riley's case, he really had one or two veterans when he took over the team. In Jackson's case, he had a couple (Jordan, Cartwright).

On the other hand, we can look to our own team, where we had Tim Floyd, a very experienced coach (not NBA, but college experience) who failed miserably. Or one can look at the Lakers pre-PJ, with Del Harris as the coach, with a young team (Kobe 1st year, E. Jones 3rd year, Travis Knight 1st year, Fisher 1st year) who couldn't win...

I apologize to those who find this post to be too long ;-)

Peace!


----------



## ScottMay

Another bump after the Massacre by Lake Erie (Ontario to follow).

You know what the worst part is? Curry, Chandler, and Williams are all going to be superstars. It's just going to happen after they shed Bulls uniforms (and all three absolutely can't wait to do that...bet on it).

Add Cleveland to the list of squads I'd rather have than ours. Their ownership and coaches understand it's a player's league. The notion of Krause and his little "system" coaches is just laughable.

Well, in for a penny, in for a pound. Bring on the losing, Fat Boy. I can take it.


----------



## ScottMay

:rofl: 

I am going to bump this thread until Krausewright is "let go".

That sentence was wrong for too many reasons.

:rofl:


----------



## Mirage5

Yeah this team is DONE. I don't think we can even get 20 wins this season. What a shame... How could this team do this to itself!? The answer is, they don't care. At lease most of them don't.


----------



## ScottMay

Sometimes I wonder what it'd be like to have a guy like Rick Carlisle coach the Bulls. You know, someone who knows the little nuances, like how to put your best lineup on the floor during crunchtime and not to run some sort of bizarre 2-1-2 zone on a key defensive stand. 

Cartwright's an idiot and so is Krause for forcing him to run the triangle offense. It's one thing when some idiot like me says that it's wrong. But when Van Gundy, Fratello, and Coach K--all of whom probably don't waste a lot of their time watching Bulls games--make the same observation after watching a half of basketball...well, it makes me think I'm on to something. 

Another double loss--one in the standings, one in the long term. I fail to see what playing Corie Blount and Marcus Fizer for all 12 minutes of a fourth quarter accomplishes for this team.

P.S. Keep dialing #5, Jalen.


----------



## DaBullz

Sir Charles has no love for Krause.

He says Krause must have a picture of Reinsdorf with a monkey (blackmail) to keep his job.


----------



## GB

Not this thread again.

C'mon...we can fuss, but we're _supposed_ to be fans. Blount doesn't eat butter popcorn at the half and forget to wash the butter off, and we could have beaten one of the better teams in the league.

Seasons not a wash, and I'm not giving up. Sometimes it's this kind of loss that shakes everyone up. I do think it's time for the GM to scream at the coach. Even he needs a little shaking.


----------



## ScottMay

> Originally posted by <b>gettinbranded</b>!
> Not this thread again.
> 
> C'mon...we can fuss, but we're _supposed_ to be fans. Blount doesn't eat butter popcorn at the half and forget to wash the butter off, and we could have beaten one of the better teams in the league.
> 
> Seasons not a wash, and I'm not giving up. Sometimes it's this kind of loss that shakes everyone up. I do think it's time for the GM to scream at the coach. Even he needs a little shaking.


I respect your mindset and trust me, I want to believe, but I'm bumping it until you agree the season's a wash...and at some point you will because it is.


----------



## johnston797

> Originally posted by <b>gettinbranded</b>!
> 
> C'mon...we can fuss, but we're _supposed_ to be fans. Blount doesn't eat butter popcorn at the half and forget to wash the butter off, and we could have beaten one of the better teams in the league.


Why was Blount even in there? I was screaming for Chandler when I realized both Ty and Marshall were on the bench. Is Bill even thinking?


----------



## DaBullz

I'm with you, GB.

I didn't think the Bulls were going to win this game before it started.

It was 100% Pistons control of the pace and style of the game.

Bulls are now 5-4 at home, and are recently beating the teams they should beat.

If they win 5 out of 9 of their home games for the season, they'll have more wins than last season right there.

I don't expect them to have some miraculous worst-to-first kind of season...


----------



## GB

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> I respect your mindset and trust me, I want to believe, but I'm bumping it until you agree the season's a wash...and at some point you will because it is.


Masochist. (now BCH is going to ban me again  )


It won't happen because while I'm looking for a certain number of wins, there are other factors that could make the season a success.


----------



## GB

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> Is Bill even thinking?



Nope. Thats why his boss needs to scream at him.


----------



## ScottMay

> Originally posted by <b>gettinbranded</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. Thats why his boss needs to scream at him.


What's probably more important, long-term, is that Krause's boss scream at him and make sure that the next coach he hires is someone with ACTUAL NBA HEAD-COACHING EXPERIENCE (!), not one of his little (or in this case, big) yes-men.

On the other hand, I guess my ideal candidate for the job would be Donn Nelson, so call me inconsistent. 

Look, folks, I am as big a fan as anyone. I'm just sick of the losing (and don't ask me to imagine how the players feel; I don't want to picture the line forming for free agency).


----------



## GB

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> I guess my ideal candidate for the job would be Donn Nelson=


not a nelson...he'd have some nutty idea like making Tyson a point forward...


----------



## rynobot

What about Van Gundy he can coach next year.


----------



## Kneepad

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> What's probably more important, long-term, is that Krause's boss scream at him and make sure that the next coach he hires is someone with ACTUAL NBA HEAD-COACHING EXPERIENCE (!), not one of his little (or in this case, big) yes-men.


A guy like, say, Doc Rivers? Oh wait, he didn't have any head coaching experience. Rick Carlisle? Byron Scott? Jim O'Brien? Eric Musselman? Flip Saunders? Paul Silas? Nate McMillen?

All these guys are "rookie" NBA head coaches.

Head coaching experience is highly over-rated, IMO. You yourself mentioned Donn Nelson, a perfectly qualified candidate as is, I believe, Bill Cartwright. I would much prefer a smart, up-and-coming guy than an old retread like, say, Mike Dunleavy.

People don't remember (apparently), but almost exactly the same comments were being made about Phil Jackson in 1988-89 as are being made now about Bill Cartwright now. Back then, ill-informed fans and media felt the triangle offense was stifling MJ, Pip, and the other athletic Bulls players. Phil Jackson was a CBA coach, nothing more. Why doesn't he just let MJ free-lance? The players hate the stupid triangle. Why did Krause ever fire Doug Collins, anyways? 

This team is showing real signs of development. The triangle offense is going to serve them well, just as it served the MJ/Pippen teams well. It is just going to take some time for these young players to develop and learn to play together.


----------



## ScottMay

Granted, none of those guys had any NBA head-coaching experience, but there are some big differences between almost all of them and Cartwright. Saunders and Musselman have a boatload of CBA head-coaching experience (Musselman's been a head coach longer than most NBA head coaches have, in fact). Carlisle and Scott were lead assistant coaches for years--both were on the short list for a number of head-coaching vacancies, e.g., plus Carlisle was regarded as one of the league's top offensive gurus. Paul Silas was also a top assistant, even if it took him forever to land a head job. McMillan had been groomed to be the Sonics coach for the last 6-7 years of his PLAYING career. O'Brien's situation is most similar to Cartwright's, but his coaching style is almost diametrically opposed to his predecessor's (unlike Bill). You can keep Doc Rivers...no coach in the league is as overrated (not that I'm blaming that on his lack of experience). Donn Nelson's been around a head coach since he could walk. He also singlehandedly organized and coached a national team for close to a decade, and he's pretty much Dallas's de facto head coach now. 

Maybe a coach doesn't need NBA head-coaching experience...but it's apparent that SOME pro head-coaching experience doesn't hurt. Cartwright's sum total of experience is being the bottom-rung assistant for two Phil Jackson teams and three Tim Floyd teams. He's green and it shows game in, game out.

As far as your recollections of Phil's first year (who of course was a head coach for years in the CBA), I remember it completely differently. Anyone who followed the team loosely knew Collins was a classic burnout case. He was crossing the line from tough-minded to abusive in regards to Pippen and Grant; he was breaking down physically; and he'd (temporarily, as it turns out) lost the respect of his star. If Collins had managed to keep it together mentally and learned to take a different approach to motivating his team, he never would have been fired. Krause saw no reason to change the overall philosophy, only its messenger. Jackson took over a team that was poised to win and he did little to tinker with it other than further the democratization of the offense (to my knowledge, Collins had been running some variant of the triple post as soon as he was hired).

And we arrive yet again at the enormous discrepancy between the perception of how/when the Jordan Bulls ran the triangle and reality. They were never, ever as slavishly bound to the offense as the Bulls have been during the rebuilding years. It was a three-quarter template of an offense that got them to Michael Time. Furthermore, both three-peat teams scored much, much more out of their tremendous defense (which was really the key to the whole thing) and in transition, making a half-court set offense less essential. Lastly, personnel--the Bulls had a Hall-of-Fame point forward genuinely unconcerned with scoring, excellent passing power forwards and centers, atypical point guards who nevertheless were dead-eye shooters and savvy decision-makers, and the greatest halfcourt bail-out player in the history of the sport. The current Bulls have more traditional, need-the-ball-to-be-effective point guards; a shoot-first, shoot-second, and shoot-third scoring forward; a classic scoring center and power forward (Marshall, not Chandler) who would rather die than passing the ball; and an off-guard with Dennis Rodman's scoring ability--in other words, a team perversely ill-suited for running the triangle.

I'm not saying they can't run it some day, or that they shouldn't run it now, but make it a PART of the offense, not the end-all, be-all. The team runs the triangle so stiffly that opponents are reading their next move minutes in advance. It's leading to lots of turnovers and lots of bad shots against the shot clock, which is putting more pressure on an already porous defense. 

This team may be showing signs of development (although I really don't see it), but they sure as hell aren't getting any better at running the triple post.


----------



## Lizzy

As long as BC continues with his lousy rotations, refusal to try Jamal and Jay together, playing Blount instead of Tyson and all-around bad coaching - I'm not confident about this season or any. 

Last night was the final straw. BC is a really bad coach.


----------



## Kneepad

Yes, Saunders and Musselman have a boatload of CBA coaching experience, but neither of them were a player in the NBA. Cartwright's years in the league as a player count for something. Also, if you've read anything about Cartwright, you know even as a player he was highly respected by his coaches and was frequently included in coaches meetings and such.

No Cartwright was never a "lead" assistant. Big deal. The important thing is he was on a staff and learning all the while.

The fact is none of this are nearly as important as the makeup of the individual in question. Larry Bird had zero previous coaching experience at any level, and he was pretty successful. By all accounts, Bill Cartwright knows the game and has the respect of his players. He has been exposed to some pretty respected coaches in his career from Hubie Brown to Phil Jackson. I think he probably has more basketball knowledge in his little finger than you or I do all told.

As for Phil Jackson... I dare say you are looking at the situation with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. Fact is, at the time no one saw the Collins firing coming. The guy had just led the Bulls to the Eastern Conference Finals-- I don't think any coach in the history of the game has done that and then been fired after the season.

Over the years it has since come out that Collins was a burn-out and a control freak-- something only Krause and Bulls management really knew at the time.

I believe you are mistaken about Collins using the triangle offense. Even though he had Tex Winter on staff, he eschewed the triangle the whole time he was with the Bulls. It was definitely Phil Jackson that first started using it.

And what were the short-term results? Winning 3 fewer games than the previous year under Collins and a 6th seed in the playoffs. Jordan publically questioning the triangle. Media and fans wondering why the ball was being taken out of Michael's hands-- why wasn't Jordan being allowed to utilize his full abilities? Sound familiar?

I do agree that the championship Bulls were superior defensive teams to today's Bulls (something I have tried repeatedly to point out when people attempt to blame the performance of today's team solely on the triangle). But I don't agree that today's team is any more bound to the offense than the MJ teams. I have pointed out previously that today's team is only running the triangle about half the time (in my estimation).


----------



## BCH

Larry Bird let his assistants run pretty much everything and he continuously gave them credit. Rick Carlisle was one of those guys and we all know what he is doing in Detroit. The second assistant escapes me, and I am not inclined to go look him up right now.

Whether BC has the say in who his assistants are or not, it is clear they are not of the quality Bird had. Bird also knew he was a short-timer and thus he didn't have to deal harshly with some guys like Rose, rather he was more relaxed and let them go out and play, which had an obvious positive short term effect.


----------



## Kneepad

I believe Dick Harter is the other Bird assistant to which you refer.

I agree BC's assistants are still a question mark. Does anyone really know if Pete Myers and Bob Thornton are any good?


----------



## BCH

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> I believe Dick Harter is the other Bird assistant to which you refer.
> 
> I agree BC's assistants are still a question mark. Does anyone really know if Pete Myers and Bob Thornton are any good?


Yeah, I thought it was Harter.

Meyers and Thornton may be fine but they are inexperienced. Of course they may also suck, but we have no real idea of knowing.

Berry has the most experience of the Bulls assistant coaches.

I can understand not putting someone with a lot of experience behind BC, thus placing undue pressure on him, but I think youhave a case here where a coach is trying to learn on the job, with little experience backing him up.


----------



## DaBullz

I'm with kneepad on this one.

We have a developing team that nobody expects to be NBA champs this season. Krause has given us a roster of really inexperienced players and vets like Blount and Hoiberg. While people may have an issue with Cartwright's current rotations, I believe he is trying to both do things to win now and for the long range benefit of the team. It's difficult, but I like where it looks like we're going.

Changing coaches at this time would be a setback in the already painful rebuilding program Krause has put us on. Our guys aren't going to get better if we keep losing and keep changing coaches.

As Kneepad rightly points out, Cartwright has every quality that will make him an awesome NBA coach. Though he didn't mention Pat Riley, another NBA player in the Cartwright/Jackson/Bird mold.

I remember a few weeks back in a thread where guys were saying how great it was for Memphis to get Hubie Brown, and how we could use a guy like Hubie Brown for his coaching style, etc. Here's a little bit from the recent Sporting News NBA section (letter from a fan):



> Q: What's the deal with Drew Gooden? First, he's the hands-down Rookie of the Year. Then Lowe quits, in comes Hubie Borwn. Now Gooden gets only about 20 minutes a game, and his daily line isn't even worth writing out on the back of a matchbook.
> 
> A: When Brown took over as coach in Memphis, he laid out a plan with team management that, in effect, dictated that every player would get an equal opportunity to earn playing time. Players are averaging 20 to 25 minutes as a result.
> 
> The Grizzlies essentially are conducting a three month tryout. They want to see who plays hard, who improves and who is worthy of being part of the team's future.


So there's the coach with tons of experience taking on an inexperienced team. He does the same thing as Cartwright, and the fans question his rotations, etc.

Food for thought, I hope.


----------



## GB

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> I'm with kneepad on this one.
> 
> We have a developing team that nobody expects to be NBA champs this season. Krause has given us a roster of really inexperienced players and vets like Blount and Hoiberg. While people may have an issue with Cartwright's current rotations, I believe he is trying to both do things to win now and for the long range benefit of the team. It's difficult, but I like where it looks like we're going.
> 
> Changing coaches at this time would be a setback in the already painful rebuilding program Krause has put us on. Our guys aren't going to get better if we keep losing and keep changing coaches.
> 
> As Kneepad rightly points out, Cartwright has every quality that will make him an awesome NBA coach. Though he didn't mention Pat Riley, another NBA player in the Cartwright/Jackson/Bird mold.
> 
> I remember a few weeks back in a thread where guys were saying how great it was for Memphis to get Hubie Brown, and how we could use a guy like Hubie Brown for his coaching style, etc. Here's a little bit from the recent Sporting News NBA section (letter from a fan):
> 
> 
> 
> So there's the coach with tons of experience taking on an inexperienced team. He does the same thing as Cartwright, and the fans question his rotations, etc.
> 
> Food for thought, I hope.


Yes. Thanks.

I'm going to ruminate on this for a while. But it still doesn't explain Buttery Blount.


----------



## DaBullz

Because Krause wouldn't go for Keon Clark after his marijuana bust, Blount may have been the only option.

I am sure Cartwright would _love_ to be able to use Clark as a sub on this team in place of Blount...

On the other hand, I think Blount and Cartwright were teammates on the Bulls at one time. Maybe there's some loyalty from that.


----------



## rynobot

Blount was one of Krause's boys I think that is why he is here.


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## ScottMay

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> Cartwright's years in the league as a player count for something. Also, if you've read anything about Cartwright, you know even as a player he was highly respected by his coaches and was frequently included in coaches meetings and such.


Yeah, he was called "Teach" and what-not. What kills me is that Big Bill apparently doesn't remember how when he played EVERY SINGLE OPENING OFFENSIVE POSSESSION was drawn up as a dump into the low post for him. Why he doesn't run the same for Eddy is a mystery.



> No Cartwright was never a "lead" assistant. Big deal. The important thing is he was on a staff and learning all the while.


The difference between a fourth assistant and a lead assistant in the NBA is considerably wider than a church door and deeper than a well. It's kind of like the difference between your best friend and the guy you make small talk with when you buy your coffee in the morning. 



> The fact is none of this are nearly as important as the makeup of the individual in question. Larry Bird had zero previous coaching experience at any level, and he was pretty successful. By all accounts, Bill Cartwright knows the game and has the respect of his players. He has been exposed to some pretty respected coaches in his career from Hubie Brown to Phil Jackson. I think he probably has more basketball knowledge in his little finger than you or I do all told.


We've reached what's become the crux of all your arguments--"why don't you apply for the job if you think you could do better?" Fact is, Larry Bird has more credibility and basketball knowledge in his landfill-buried appendix than Bill Cartwright has in his whole family tree. 



> As for Phil Jackson... I dare say you are looking at the situation with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. Fact is, at the time no one saw the Collins firing coming. The guy had just led the Bulls to the Eastern Conference Finals-- I don't think any coach in the history of the game has done that and then been fired after the season.


You're right, with a qualifier. No coach who's ever led his team to a conference final has ever been fired after the season, except for the one who verbally and psychologically abused his young players, broke out in hives and rashes, and was the king of the incoherent press conference (my apologies to Barry Switzer). 



> I believe you are mistaken about Collins using the triangle offense. Even though he had Tex Winter on staff, he eschewed the triangle the whole time he was with the Bulls. It was definitely Phil Jackson that first started using it.


Pick up a copy of THE JORDAN RULES. Collins experimented with Tex's 1748--sorry, 1948--triple-post offense from the get-go, per Satan's--sorry, Jerry Krause's--directive.



> And what were the short-term results? Winning 3 fewer games than the previous year under Collins and a 6th seed in the playoffs. Jordan publically questioning the triangle. Media and fans wondering why the ball was being taken out of Michael's hands-- why wasn't Jordan being allowed to utilize his full abilities? Sound familiar?.


We've reached crux #2--aka "What Michael Wanted". If I had a dollar for all the things Michael's *****ed about during his playing career, I'd be as rich as he is. In no particular chronological order, His grievances: "The Triangle." "The Media." "You Guys." "Sedale." "Kevin." "You Guys." "Dennis." "Slim Bouler." "Rich Esquinas." "Ahmad--no, wait, he's my bizyatch, nevermind." "The Media." "Kylie Ireland." "Quintin." "Brad." "Jackie." "The New York Post." "Stan." "Phil." "You Guys." "My Supporting Cast." "Darel Garretson (he once made a ref call Me for palming the ball)." "Corzine." "Vincent." "Hodges." "Hansen." "Why Doesn't My GM bring in a 46-year-old Walter Davis?" "You Guys." "You Guys."



> I do agree that the championship Bulls were superior defensive teams to today's Bulls (something I have tried repeatedly to point out when people attempt to blame the performance of today's team solely on the triangle). But I don't agree that today's team is any more bound to the offense than the MJ teams. I have pointed out previously that today's team is only running the triangle about half the time (in my estimation).


Thank you for grudgingly admitting the greatest team in the history of the NBA, post free agency, had a marginally better defense than our current beloved Bulls. As for the triangle, if today's Bulls run it half of the time, (in my estimation) the dynasty Bulls ran it 1/10 of the time. They were just a vastly better team than the Bulls are now, and all the "triangle" meant was getting His Michaelness to cough up the ball to an open man every now and again.

//edited--sorry, it's Darel, not Dean, Garretson


----------



## Kneepad

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> Yeah, he was called "Teach" and what-not. What kills me is that Big Bill apparently doesn't remember how when he played EVERY SINGLE OPENING OFFENSIVE POSSESSION was drawn up as a dump into the low post for him. Why he doesn't run the same for Eddy is a mystery.


To me as well. However, I can't count how many times I've heard him say in "Cartwright's Corner" or other interviews how his game plan is to "pound it inside", or "establish an inside game", or whatever. Then the team goes out and doesn't execute it. So if I have a problem with Cartwright, it's that he seems reluctant to play hardball with certain players (a.k.a. Jalen) to _insist_ that they follow the game plan.



> The difference between a fourth assistant and a lead assistant in the NBA is considerably wider than a church door and deeper than a well. It's kind of like the difference between your best friend and the guy you make small talk with when you buy your coffee in the morning.


We may have to agree to disagree on this point. I understand that the roles of a lead assistant and a lower assistant are different. However, I believe even the lowest assistant can learn just as much about coaching from the rest of the staff as anyone else on the staff, and _that_ is what we were discussing in terms of gaining knowledge.



> We've reached what's become the crux of all your arguments--"why don't you apply for the job if you think you could do better?" Fact is, Larry Bird has more credibility and basketball knowledge in his landfill-buried appendix than Bill Cartwright has in his whole family tree.


Sorry if you feel that's the crux of all of my arguments. I made that statement in response to your implication that Bill Cartwright doesn't have a sufficient level of NBA basketball knowledge to be a head coach. To me, that notion is simply groundless given his experience in the league as both a player and coach. As for Larry Bird, I disagree that he has more credibility and knowledge than BC-- he was a more talented player, sure. But that doesn't equate to coaching ability (as has been born out time and time again.)



> Pick up a copy of THE JORDAN RULES. Collins experimented with Tex's 1748--sorry, 1948--triple-post offense from the get-go, per Satan's--sorry, Jerry Krause's--directive.


Thanks, I've read the book more than once. If you'd care to point me to a particular page, I'll be happy to re-read it yet again. In the meantime, I'll offer this (starting on page 53):

_For six years now the Bulls had tried it Jordan's way, and ... they hadn't truly succeeded. ... Michael would average thirty-six or thirty-seven and still come up short against top echelon teams. ... That would have to stop, Jackson decided. ... The system Jackson chose to implement was one ... that had been refined by assistant Tex Winter in a book Winter wrote some thirty years ago called "The Triple Post Offense."_


----------



## Maestro

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> Great post.


Thank you.....


----------



## Agent911

My new least-favorite thing about the team is watching the point guard walk the ball up court with his head turned for 6 seconds getting instruction from Cartwright.

Criminy, Bill. Coach in practice, coach in huddles, but when the guys are on the floor, let them play. The rest is just over-instructrion and crippling for the players.


----------



## DaBullz

The Bulls, particularly JWill, were outstanding at pushing the ball upcourt all game yesterday. It made a huge difference... Guys who wanted the ball had to run upcourt with JWill, and they didn't have to spend so much time in a strict regulated offensive scheme.

The Bulls also ran numerous screen/rolls out of the triangle yesterday that were enormously effective, though both the PGs failed to recognize the screener as an open man once he drew the double team. Something to work on in practice ;-)


----------



## Machinehead

Bump


----------



## DaBullz

And a worthy bump it was ;-)


----------



## GB

> Originally posted by <b>gettinbranded</b>!
> Not this thread again.
> -----
> Seasons not a wash, and I'm not giving up. Sometimes it's this kind of loss that shakes everyone up.


----------



## GB

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> I'm bumping it until you agree the season's a wash...and at some point you will because it is.



keep bumpin' I ain't list'n.


----------



## ScottMay

Are the Bulls getting to play the rest of the season at home vs. free-falling, injury-wracked, piss-poor Eastern Conference teams? I missed that announcement.

I'll give them some credit for taking care of business on this homestand, but the fact remains that they lost to the only decent team they played, and the jury's still way out as to whether or not they can be even MILDLY competitive when they take it back out on the road. 

Some find Fizer's resurgence a good thing. I don't. He simply isn't going to be part of the picture for the 2003-2004 opener. Tyson Chandler isn't going to be part of the picture for the 2006 season opener if his playing time keeps getting doled out to a fatally flawed power forward.

The weekend series will be very, very telling indeed, as will the next set of home games vs. some teams that aren't dead in the water.


----------



## johnston797

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> Some find Fizer's resurgence a good thing. I don't. He simply isn't going to be part of the picture for the 2003-2004 opener.


Fizer has helped tremendously by replacing Marshall's scoring off the bench. IMHO, he is not stealing time from Chandler, but time from Blount. That's a good thing in my book.

We still have a lot of time left on Chandler and Curry's rookie contracts. 

We are in 100% agreedment as to wanting to see this 'improved' team play on the road & see if it holds up.


----------



## such sweet thunder

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> Are the Bulls getting to play the rest of the season at home vs. free-falling, injury-wracked, piss-poor Eastern Conference teams? I missed that announcement.


Yes, Yes and Yes. Toronto has nobody with out Carter and Davis. There is no was that game should have even been close. Boston played their worst game of the season. Milwaukee was in a free fall. Orlando had their stars hurt and played piss poor ball. We lost to the Cavs-- The Cavs everybody.

I know the first step to regaining respectability is putting away the games you should put away, but I am not a believer. Yes, these are games they would not have won the last couple of years, but this dosen't mean the Bulls don't suck like an electrolux.


----------



## ScottMay

*This DECADE is a wash*

:laugh:

Maybe the Bulls can mount a comeback in the second half or keep tomorrow's game closer to something less than an embarrassment. After all, the Pacers ARE MISSING THEIR FRANCHISE PLAYER.

A gutless, heartless, mindless, appalling effort, and reason #485353 this organization needs to start over with someone who doesn't stink of Krause.


----------



## Future

I wish I can wash Jalen Rose off this team.

And Oliver Miller.


----------



## Jim Ian

*Re: This DECADE is a wash*



> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> :laugh:
> 
> Maybe the Bulls can mount a comeback in the second half or keep tomorrow's game closer to something less than an embarrassment. After all, the Pacers ARE MISSING THEIR FRANCHISE PLAYER.


Huh... I swore I saw Reggie Miller out there for a bit. Must be my eyes....



> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> A gutless, heartless, mindless, appalling effort, and reason #485353 this organization needs to start over with someone who doesn't stink of Krause.


Were the other 485,352 good ones? Or were they ridiculous like this one...?

The Pacers are a good team, and a great team at home. Yes we were soundly whopped. But seriously, must you be so negative?


----------



## DaBullz

Hey Jim,

It's ok for guys to be negative. Some people have different expectations than we do for the players and the team. When the team wins, they have to read our happy, happy, joy, joy posts. When the team loses, we have to read posts of the opposite nature. A different breed of fan, but a fan still the same.

Such is life. Live it, love it, enjoy it. Let's go get 'em tomorrow. There's a lot of basketball left to get into.

I love reading your posts. Really.

Regards.


----------



## Bulls4Life

IMHO, the only way this season is a wash is if at the end we still don't know what ty & eddy can do playing full games! and if they don't improve as the season goes along because that would indicate that cartwrong is not teaching them, which was supposed to be the impetus for him being hired!


----------



## Salvaged Ship

What was needed for this season to be a success was a decent increase in victories while seeing that the three young guys (Curry, Chandler, Williams) were likely to develop into future star players. They don't need to be star players now, just show us games they play at a high level while developing more consistency. 

Crumbs sent a proven 20/10 guy who leads the league in blocks for a high schooler. He also sent three young, productive players to Indiana in exchange for his "star". He got the draft pick he said he wanted. The coach was supposed to be in place. This year we need to see that the potential in Chandler, Williams, and Curry will develop.

I don't see anything yet that confirms any of those three will be star players. And according to Krause's plan they all need to be stars for it to work. 

We will probably get more than 21 wins, but it will come because of Marshall, Rose, and other veterans. Not because Chandler, Curry, and Williams are developing into top NBA players. The few extra wins will be misleading. We look to be in deep doo-doo.

We could of still drafted Curry at # 4 and kept Brand, Artest, Mercer, Miller, and still would of probably had the number 2 pick for Williams. In essence we gave up Brand, Miller, Mercer, and Artest for Chandler and Rose.

I'm sorry, but that is a horrible trade off. 

Krause is praying that by some miracle things turn around and the three question mark youngsters develop into stars quick.

One sad thing is that if these guys do somehow develop it will probably come when they can sign elsewhere. Chandler looks like a California guy to me. 

Krause has turned a once proud franchise into nightly joke material for David Letterman. Genious. Yet Reinsdrip just keeps Crumbs on. The crowds are getting smaller. Only thing Reinsdrip knows is money.


----------



## BamaBull

*Re: Re: This DECADE is a wash*



> Originally posted by <b>Jim Ian</b>!
> 
> 
> Huh... I swore I saw Reggie Miller out there for a bit. Must be my eyes....


Reggie WAS their franchise player....far from it now....get up to date bud. O'Neal IS the future, as is the rest of this young core of players.....




> Were the other 485,352 good ones? Or were they ridiculous like this one...?
> 
> The Pacers are a good team, and a great team at home. Yes we were soundly whopped. But seriously, must you be so negative?


The Celtics are a very good team...we should NOT have been whupped like that. It was poor playing and coaching.....personnally I do not see a problem with negativity as long as it is warranted....in this case....I feel it was. Just my opinion. Besides anyone who watched this game and did NOT feel some negativity must be dead. This was a HORRENDOUS effort by this Bulls team all the way around. Competitive is what I truly expected...not a win. Still.....this WAS an embarrassment. These Bulls just laid down. PERIOD.


----------



## ScottMay

I apologize to anyone who thinks I'm being overly negative, or to anyone whose reading of my posts diminishes their enjoyment of the board. I'm simply calling it the way I see it.

There were some outlandish things being said after the homestand--that this team could make a playoff run, that it had turned the corner, that the rebuilding was getting near the final phase. I hope the Indiana game proved how far-fetched these notions were.

The only reason I complain as noisily and frequently as I do is that I care. I see signs of Cub-dom happening here--there's an insanely loyal and large fan base and there's still a lot of residue from the championships. A cynical person might look at this situation and say we're being had--Krause is a patsy for Reinsdorf and his partners who continue to rake it in hand over fist. Remember, even the Rose deal is going to save the Bulls a lot of money long-term.

Just know this--no one, and I mean no one, will be happier than me when this team finally breaks out of the doldrums. I'd just like it to be in the next few years as opposed to when I'm 80.


----------



## DaBullz

Before the season began, there were a lot of us who believed the team could win 30-35 games. This was a concensus among a bunch of knowledgable basketball (bulls) fans. The idea of making the playoffs is simply not as far fetched as you make it out to be; at least some of us believe the season is young, the team has the talent, we see improvement, and the schedule favors us.

To make a playoff run, we have to beat teams like Atlanta and Washington. We don't have to be so dominant that we beat the very best team in the East, especially on their home court. The loss last night is simply expected, and I personally am not upset about it, nor does it change my optimistic view of what the team can do.

The bottom line is to make a playoff run, we have to beat certain teams: Washington, Atlanta, Cleveland, New York, etc. Teams that, like us, are sub-.500. So far, we've really only lost one of these games we all marked on our schedules as "highly likely" wins. And so far, we've beaten New Jersey and Boston twice, so we're actually 2 games ahead of that 30-35 game pace.

Many of us figure that 41-41 might just snag that last playoff spot. Do we think the team is going to the Championship series if we get that 8th spot? Ho ho, no way! It sure would be nice to get our guys just a taste of playoff ball, even if we lose 4 straight by 50+ points.

Don't you remember the early Jordan years... We made the playoffs and he scored 63 points against the Celtics in the playoffs. How many years did it take to get back to the playoffs? And once we did, even with Pippen, Grant, Jordan, and Armstrong, we lost two straight years to Detroit. That is the process of becoming a champion. It was true for the Lakers, too. They had Kobe, Shaq, Eddie Jones, Van Exel, and a roster full of star talent and couldn't make the conference finals.

JWill, Chandler, and Curry aren't Larry Bird. Not one of them could take this team from worst to first. That doesn't make them bad players, and it doesn't mean they won't be great players given time.

We were all spoiled by the 6-time championship teams. But realize it took TWENTY-SEVEN years of "rebuilding" to get the first championship. 

LOL, we've won 5 of our last 7 games. How long has it been since we could even say that? 

Now let's go steal a game we shouldn't win from Indy tonight! 

(And no need to apologize ;-)


----------



## johnston797

*Tough loss last night but...*

It's still too early to call the season a wash.

At this point in the season, Williams, Chandler, Crawford & Fizer have shown me something, maybe not quite as much as I had hoped for enough for 1/3 of the way through the season.

Krause has bet his rep on Curry being better than Brad Miller so I am willing to give this some time.


----------



## MikeDC

Right now, we're on a pace for like 28 wins, which is pretty close to the 30 that most everyone predicted. I don't know whether that makes the season a wash or not, but if it does, it's a predictable wash.


----------



## DaBullz

Bulls are 8-4 at home, 1-13 on the road.

We are on pace for 27 wins at home and 3 wins on the road.

Another POV...


----------



## BamaBull

*I NEED THAT LAST PLAYOFF SPOT!!!!*



> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> Bulls are 8-4 at home, 1-13 on the road.
> 
> We are on pace for 27 wins at home and 3 wins on the road.
> 
> Another POV...


to get a free ticket and meal for the first game in the playoffs at the UC!!! lol......I think the frustrating thing for ME, personnally is, that I KNOW by watching these guys that they ARE better than they certainly looked last night in particular. Rose is rose is rose is rose...well, some like em...some don't, sorry, but I am in the later group! No nads at all from him last night. Nervous, smervous.....he should have ate it up last night. Instead, he got ate up by Artest....plain and simple. Did artest, miller or that sorry mercer look nervous? nah, they were on THEIR court....lets see what Rose is made up tonight? NOT ONE bull other than fizer and marshall can walk around with their heads up high after last night....


----------



## Jim Ian

*Re: Re: Re: This DECADE is a wash*



> Originally posted by <b>BamaBull</b>!
> Reggie WAS their franchise player....far from it now....get up to date bud. O'Neal IS the future, as is the rest of this young core of players.....


We'll have to agree to disagree here. O'Neal is a very, VERY good player, and may very well be thier best player at times during the regular season.

But when in really counts, in the playoffs, final game of a series, with less then 10 seconds left... it's Miller Time. I think your drasticaly under-rating Miller here...


----------



## ScottMay

Bump (an agonizingly slow one on my in-laws' dial-up).

Here's where we're at:

--The Bulls AREN'T EVEN COMPETITIVE on the road vs ANYONE. A 1-41 road record this year is not at all a far-fetched prospect.

--The Bulls AREN'T EVEN COMPETITIVE at home unless playing teams from the bottom third of the league (to those who want to cry, "But what about the Pacers?"--do you think the Bulls beat them if O'Neal and Artest make the trip? Please.)

--Like the Floyd years, there isn't a shred of continuity in terms of an offensive or defensive gameplan. None whatsoever. 

--Like the Floyd years, there isn't a shred of continuity in terms of player rotations. Unlike the Floyd years, our 1-9 roster is pretty much set for the foreseeable future (or at least until it's deemed a failure and Krause rebuilds again). Why is it, then, that Corie Blount plays while Tyson Chandler sits? Donyell Marshall plays center as Eddy Curry (who has to read this board; I've been saying for months that he must have killed Cartwright's dog to warrant the way "Coach" has handled him this year) registers a simply inexcusable DNP-CD? Is the plan to win now, or win down the road? I'm confused, Jerry. So is your coach.

--Bottom line--where we're at is the same place we were when this whole "rebuilding" escapade began. The bottom rung. Square one. An easy, easy, easy win for any team that's worth a damn. When will it change?


----------



## kukoc4ever

[/QUOTE]
--The Bulls AREN'T EVEN COMPETITIVE at home unless playing teams from the bottom third of the league (to those who want to cry, "But what about the Pacers?"--do you think the Bulls beat them if O'Neal and Artest make the trip? Please.)
[/QUOTE]

What about the Nets? What about the Celtics? What about the Hornets?

I'm not saying the Bulls are a good team, but they have beat the best of the east at home... and those teams were at pretty much full strength.


----------



## DaBullz

Welcome back, ScottMay. You were sorely missed ;-)

So what year of rebuilding are we in?

Fizer (3rd year)
Curry (2nd year)
Chandler (2nd year)
Hassell (2nd year)
Rose (1st full year with team)
Marshall (1st full year with team)
JWill (1st year)
Baxter (1st year)
ERob (2nd year with team, 1st year was an injury washout)
Crawford (3rd year with team, 84 games prior to this season, due to injury)

Hoiberg is the only guy who's ben on this team for more than 3 years.


----------



## Tri_N

How about we fired Bill right now? I am sick of this idiot who doesn't know how to utilize the talent around him. Defense is important but we don't even have an offensive game. How about we get one first and think about the other. Playing Hassel is a joke because he has been blowing defensive assignments daily now. If I see another 40+ mins for Hassel, I am going to throw up. Someone slapped some senses into BC because Jamal and Jay can coexist. When we talk about defense, what about our offese? It sucks. Once we got a reliable offensive scheme, then we'll focus on our defense. This team has the sorriest organization in history and our coaching staff sucks. If anything, I don't want Blount playing 20+ minutes neither. He's good for 8-10 mins but 20+ mins? Come on. Even Bargaric showed better fundamental and effort than this chump. We need to cut some players to settle some chemistry problem and I suggest Hassel and Blount. If Curry isn't going to cut it, Bargaric is always in line. If Jamal and Jay can't cut it, there's always Hoilberg. 
At least this time, the players can't cry if they're benched.


----------



## DaBullz

Bump

End of December. 11-20, 9 games under .500.




> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> If this team brings the same intensity to all its games from now on, and a similar player rotation, it will be closer to .500 by the end of January than one might think.
> 
> I, too, am going to revive a couple of posts from an older thread. I'm updating the teams' records in the schedule portions of my posts:
> 
> The Bulls are 3-2 at home, and 3-5 vs. teams from the east.
> 
> They face two difficult games for the remainder of this month:
> 
> Nov. 27 at Boston (9-4)
> Nov. 30 at Dallas (13-0)
> 
> <B>If they lose both, they'll have a 4-12 record</B>
> [ my note: we did lose both, as expected ]
> 
> However, December's schedule looks better for the Bulls:
> 
> Dec. 3 New Orleans (was 10-4, 11-5, just lost to the Knicks!)
> Dec. 4 at Cleveland (was 2-12, 2-15)
> Dec. 6 at Toronto (was 4-9, 5-10)
> Dec. 7 Cleveland (was 2-12, 2-15)
> Dec. 10 Orlando (was 8-7, 9-7)
> Dec. 12 Detroit (was 11-3, 12-4)
> Dec. 14 Milwaukee (was 6-7, 7-8)
> Dec. 16 Boston (was 9-4, 10-5)
> Dec. 18 Toronto (was 4-9, 5-10)
> Dec. 23 New Jersey (10-6)
> Dec. 27 Minnesota (9-8)
> Dec. 28 San Antonio (10-7)
> Dec. 31 Portland (7-7)
> 
> If we beat Cleveland twice, Toronto twice, and Milwaukee, we would improve our record to 9-16. If we beat Orlando, it goes to 10-15. Our only two road games are against teams with records similar or worse than ours.
> 
> We could be half way to last season's win total by Christmas.
> 
> ------
> 
> While I'm looking at the schedule, January looks good, too:
> 
> Jan 2 Washington (was 6-7, 6-9)
> Jan 4 Cleveland (was 2-12, 2-15)
> Jan 6 Utah (was 7-7, is 9-7)
> Jan 8 at Washington (was 6-7, is 6-9)
> Jan 10 at Milwaukee (was 6-7, is 7-8)
> Jan 13 New York (2-10)
> Jan 14 at New York (was 2-10, is 4-10)
> (was No teams with a winning record for 7 straight games, now is one team with a winning record)
> Jan 17 at New Orleans (was 10-4, is 11-5)
> Jan 18 at Miami (was 2-10, is 3-12)
> Jan 20 at Atlanta (was 6-7, is 8-8)
> Jan 22 at Orlando (was 8-7, is 9-7)
> Jan 24 Washington (was 6-7, is 6-9)
> Jan 26 Houston (was 7-5, is 9-6)
> Jan 29 at LA Clippers (was 5-9, 6-11)
> Jan 31 at Portland (was 6-7, is 7-7)
> 
> That's 15 games, 12 against teams with < .500 records (at this point in the season)
> 
> The following scenario is not out of the question:
> 
> Win 5, Lose 8 December, overall record = 9-20
> Win 12, Lose 3 January, overall record = 21-23


----------



## ScottMay

Despite an impressive win tonight vs. the 2nd-worst road team in the league, I'm even more convinced the season is a wash.

First and foremost, there's the ongoing travesty that is Cartwright's handling of Curry. I've read all recaps of tonight's game vs. the Cavs and found nothing saying Eddy was injured in the first half, and to me that's the only acceptable reason for Cartwright not to have given him a lick of second-half run. 

Since his outburst following the Spurs game, Curry has put in a much better effort on the defensive end, especially in help situations. I thought Eddy put in a good first half and would have been useful to throw up against Ilgauskas in the second. (Sure, he took a bad shot and had some turnovers, but if that's what's bothering Cartwright, then lately Donyell and Marcus ought to be seeing some serious pine time, too.) Instead, Eddy gets bupkus and he continues to regress. He is as good as gone when his rookie deal runs out. No big deal, I guess, but directly or indirectly, didn't Krause kind of tear down the team he had two years ago to build around Curry? 

Second, in light of all the comments by the TNT crew about body language and player conduct during timeouts, etc., I made a point of watching for that stuff tonight. If I were Reinsdorf, I would order Krause to cut Dalibor Bagaric before sunrise. He just oozes negativity. On one layup where Chandler stumbled toward the Bulls bench after being fouled, Tyson ended up right in front of Dali and everyone's favorite Croatian didn't even bat an eyelid (as the rest of the Bulls' bench exploded). 

Beyond that glaring example, all I can say is the TNT guys were absolutely right. Curry was literally talking to himself after not getting into the second half. ERob (another guy I'd cut if it weren't my money) is smirking and farting around when he's not simply not paying attention. I don't expect these guys to act like a college team in the huddle, but there's a distinct lack of chemistry that can't help with what's going on in between the lines. 

All of these problems are related to the same old core problem--our coach and our GM aren't even close to being on the same page. Cartwright has to have seen the writing on the wall at this point; on some level, he must know he's not going to be the Bulls' coach by the time they're ready to start winning consistently. To that end, consciously or unconsciously, he's coaching for today in the hopes he can salvage the chance to be a head coach elsewhere down the road. 

Even if Bill wasn't ready for a head coaching job (and he wasn't), this is hardly all his fault. Krause has handed him a train wreck of a team and insisted he run a complex offense to boot. He's saddled Bill with disasters like the aforementioned Bagaric and Robinson. He's asked him to take on the Eastern Conference with Trenton Hassell and Fred Hoiberg as his 2s. His idea of bolstering the front line is to sign Corie Blount. If Cartwright's sin is inexperience, then Krause's is having absolutely no idea what it takes to win in today's NBA.

The problems facing this team are borderline unsolvable. It'll take a regime change to get the rebuilding moving faster than a glacier.

P.S. A note to Jamal Crawford--I would hope you're over at Jay's right now with ice packs and chicken soup and anything else that'll speed our only point guard's recovery and allow you to slink back to your reserve role, where your many, many flaws aren't as easily exposed. 

P.P.S. I just remembered this--I had good seats to the Portland game, in the third row baseline next to the Portland bench. When Derek Anderson drew that sixth foul on Jay, I looked to the bench to see who Bill would bring in, and noticed that Dalibor and Jamal, seated next to each other, were laughing like hyenas.


----------



## BamaBull

*IF I had Krause's home address.....*



> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> Despite an impressive win tonight vs. the 2nd-worst road team in the league, I'm even more convinced the season is a wash.
> 
> First and foremost, there's the ongoing travesty that is Cartwright's handling of Curry. I've read all recaps of tonight's game vs. the Cavs and found nothing saying Eddy was injured in the first half, and to me that's the only acceptable reason for Cartwright not to have given him a lick of second-half run.
> 
> Since his outburst following the Spurs game, Curry has put in a much better effort on the defensive end, especially in help situations. I thought Eddy put in a good first half and would have been useful to throw up against Ilgauskas in the second. (Sure, he took a bad shot and had some turnovers, but if that's what's bothering Cartwright, then lately Donyell and Marcus ought to be seeing some serious pine time, too.) Instead, Eddy gets bupkus and he continues to regress. He is as good as gone when his rookie deal runs out. No big deal, I guess, but directly or indirectly, didn't Krause kind of tear down the team he had two years ago to build around Curry?
> 
> Second, in light of all the comments by the TNT crew about body language and player conduct during timeouts, etc., I made a point of watching for that stuff tonight. If I were Reinsdorf, I would order Krause to cut Dalibor Bagaric before sunrise. He just oozes negativity. On one layup where Chandler stumbled toward the Bulls bench after being fouled, Tyson ended up right in front of Dali and everyone's favorite Croatian didn't even bat an eyelid (as the rest of the Bulls' bench exploded).
> 
> Beyond that glaring example, all I can say is the TNT guys were absolutely right. Curry was literally talking to himself after not getting into the second half. ERob (another guy I'd cut if it weren't my money) is smirking and farting around when he's not simply not paying attention. I don't expect these guys to act like a college team in the huddle, but there's a distinct lack of chemistry that can't help with what's going on in between the lines.
> 
> All of these problems are related to the same old core problem--our coach and our GM aren't even close to being on the same page. Cartwright has to have seen the writing on the wall at this point; on some level, he must know he's not going to be the Bulls' coach by the time they're ready to start winning consistently. To that end, consciously or unconsciously, he's coaching for today in the hopes he can salvage the chance to be a head coach elsewhere down the road.
> 
> Even if Bill wasn't ready for a head coaching job (and he wasn't), this is hardly all his fault. Krause has handed him a train wreck of a team and insisted he run a complex offense to boot. He's saddled Bill with disasters like the aforementioned Bagaric and Robinson. He's asked him to take on the Eastern Conference with Trenton Hassell and Fred Hoiberg as his 2s. His idea of bolstering the front line is to sign Corie Blount. If Cartwright's sin is inexperience, then Krause's is having absolutely no idea what it takes to win in today's NBA.
> 
> The problems facing this team are borderline unsolvable. It'll take a regime change to get the rebuilding moving faster than a glacier.
> 
> P.S. A note to Jamal Crawford--I would hope you're over at Jay's right now with ice packs and chicken soup and anything else that'll speed our only point guard's recovery and allow you to slink back to your reserve role, where your many, many flaws aren't as easily exposed.
> 
> P.P.S. I just remembered this--I had good seats to the Portland game, in the third row baseline next to the Portland bench. When Derek Anderson drew that sixth foul on Jay, I looked to the bench to see who Bill would bring in, and noticed that Dalibor and Jamal, seated next to each other, were laughing like hyenas.



.........I would mail your post to him.....right on.


----------



## DaBullz

You might try e-mailing it to [email protected].

I bet he might actually take an e-mail from Scott May.

LOL


----------



## GB




----------



## ScottMay

You can roll your eyes at me when the Bulls win a few on the road.

I'm still appalled by Cartwright's use of our centers. Curry's only done everything the coaches have asked of him and he's on a two-inch leash and doesn't get plays called for him. 

It's sad, really. Last year Curry was scoring like Gretzky. This year, Cartwright's sucked the offensive ability right out of him and doesn't even reward him for his improved defensive play.

Lastly, nights like this just make Fizer's departure all the more inevitable. I can't wait to see what the Fizer luvahs say when his agent asks for a six-year, $60 million dollar deal.


----------



## GB

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> You can roll your eyes at me when the Bulls win a few on the road.
> 
> I'm still appalled by Cartwright's use of our centers. Curry's only done everything the coaches have asked of him and he's on a two-inch leash and doesn't get plays called for him.
> 
> It's sad, really. Last year Curry was scoring like Gretzky. This year, Cartwright's sucked the offensive ability right out of him and doesn't even reward him for his improved defensive play.
> 
> Lastly, nights like this just make Fizer's departure all the more inevitable. I can't wait to see what the Fizer luvahs say when his agent asks for a six-year, $60 million dollar deal.



I have to wonder about fans who look for things to be unhappy about.

The *TEAM* won. It's not about individuals. 


Just as Marcus' time came, Curry's will come. And if Fizer leaves, he'll bring back some value in return. A case is slowly being built up that he's arrived, and that his play isn't a fluke. Try to enjoy it dude...


----------



## steve nash twin

lets not get to hasty on the arrival of "the fize". he has strung a few games together lately, but nothing worth changing the fact that most nights he's a potential black hole. i get on "the fize" a lot, lizzy can attest to that. but in the wiz game when he went to the rack and missed the jam, i almost shed a tear for his use of size. if he did more of that, with better results of course, then i'll be proud of the guy. but whatever ay.


you know what i'm talking aboot.


----------



## ScottMay

> Originally posted by <b>gettinbranded</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> I have to wonder about fans who look for things to be unhappy about.


Just as I wonder about fans who get so ga-ga over one win, they lose sight of what an unmitigated disaster the Bulls have been for five seasons, with no guarantee of a turnaround anytime soon.

The Bulls are only four games ahead of last year's pace, with a crippling stretch of 14 in 18 on the road upcoming, and all the plays and playing time are being doled out to guys who are no more a part of the team's ultimate future than I am. 

Sorry for not getting "geeked."


----------



## HAWK23

lol Scott May, Mr. Negative!!!! 

GO BULLS!


----------



## dkg1

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> all the plays and playing time are being doled out to guys who are no more a part of the team's ultimate future than I am.


I understand what you're saying. I would be much more excited if it was Eddy Curry, Tyson and JWill who lead us to victory against the Jazz. Be that as it may, it is nice to be able to beat quality teams such as the Jazz and Blazers.


----------



## GB

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> Just as I wonder about fans who get so ga-ga over one win,


Actually, it's 13.

But thats not what I'm ga-ga over. It's having a prime time scorer in Rose...(we didn't have that 5 years ago) having an excellent rookie PG in Jay Williams(we didn't have that 5 years ago)....having a big man in the middle, out of high school, who looks like he's going to round out into a real difference maker on both ends (we didn't have that 5 years ago)---another one with real talent (we didn't have that 5 years ago) who needs only time, and assorted parts who can contribute or be moved for value.

Anyone who doesn't think we're better postioned now than five years ago...


----------



## truebluefan

If one thinks this team has peaked then yes the season is a wash. But i dont think we have peaked yet. The next stretch will tell us if we have improved or not. 1-14 on the road is not good, so we need some wins now on the road.


----------



## GB

> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> If one thinks this team has peaked then yes the season is a wash. But i dont think we have peaked yet. The next stretch will tell us if we have improved or not. 1-14 on the road is not good, so we need some wins now on the road.


I guess it's what you're looking for. Tyson has developed. Jamal has developed. Jwill has developed. Fizer is showing development.

And the team, while having it's rough spots, is competing and winning some games.

As long as those positives continue...it's hard to say that it would have been better to sit this season out (which is what : "Season is a wash" means to me.


----------



## truebluefan

thats the way i look at it GB.


----------



## Wynn

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> Just as I wonder about fans who get so ga-ga over one win, they lose sight of what an unmitigated disaster the Bulls have been for five seasons, with no guarantee of a turnaround anytime soon.
> 
> The Bulls are only four games ahead of last year's pace, with a crippling stretch of 14 in 18 on the road upcoming, and all the plays and playing time are being doled out to guys who are no more a part of the team's ultimate future than I am.
> 
> Sorry for not getting "geeked."


Four games ahead of last year, but with wins against Boston (twice), New Jersey, Indiana, New Orleans, Orlando, Utah, and Portland. All of these teams are above .500 this season. When's the last season we could say that?

Also, we are 12-7 at home (when's the last time we had a winning record at home?), and we've beaten 8 of our 14 Eastern conference opponents. Given that we haven't even played 3 of the fourteen yet (Philly, Miami, New York), the only 3 we've played and not yet beaten are Atlanta, Washington, and Detroit.

These are all reasons to get "geeked" about this team. Especially given the fact that we are still not anywhere near firing on all cylindars....

*Go Bulls!*

:rbanana: :wbanana: :rbanana: :wbanana: :rbanana:


----------



## DaBullz

> Originally posted by <b>gettinbranded</b>!
> 
> 
> I guess it's what you're looking for. Tyson has developed. Jamal has developed. Jwill has developed. Fizer is showing development.
> 
> And the team, while having it's rough spots, is competing and winning some games.
> 
> As long as those positives continue...it's hard to say that it would have been better to sit this season out (which is what : "Season is a wash" means to me.


Good point. Just what does "season is a wash" mean?

To me, it means, "we don't have a chance to make the playoffs."

To others, it might mean, "we won't win the championship."

In either case, when wasn't the season a wash?

I don't remember anyone predicting playoffs during the preseason. So, I guess it was a wash after we won the first two games, even.

Maybe we should be asking the question, "is next season a wash?" already.

LOL


----------



## DaBullz

http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-roman072.html

Usually, the Bulls have been practically--if not mathematically--eliminated by now.

But after their 113-98 victory Monday over the Utah Jazz, the Bulls moved from 12th to 11th in the Eastern Conference, four games behind the eighth-place Washington Wizards, who host the Bulls on Wednesday.

"The long-range goal is to give ourselves a chance to win championships,'' Krause said. "The short-range goal is to make the playoffs.

"We're not going to sacrifice young talent to make the playoffs. We're not going to sacrifice the chance to win big later on to make the playoffs. And we think we're in position to win big later on. Still, saying all that, we still want to make the playoffs this season.''

Krause isn't sure yet if this is a playoff team.

"We're going to find that out over the next two months,'' he said. "I don't think anybody knows yet. But we're not out of it.''

Last year, the Bulls were 6-27 on Jan. 7. They were out of it.

This year, Toronto and Cleveland are out of it, not just because of their records but because of the makeup of their teams. And Atlanta is headed south. But the Bulls (13-21) have to finish above seven teams to make the playoffs.

I don't see it happening, but the fact it's worth discussing is a sign of progress.


----------



## Wishbone

what the season is a wash means to me.


sounds like a fifth grade essay.  

anyway -- the only way this season is a true total wash, is if the bulls stumble through the season, making no real progress as a team.

if both the team fails to make the playoffs (pretty likely) and the young players on the team fail to learn or make any meaningful development (pretty unlikely) then THAT, my friends, is a total wash of a season.


yeah, it's slow going for Tyson and Eddy right now, and Jay isn't setting the world on fire yet either. but it looks like every now and again one of the three takes a little step forward -- and doesn't give that inch back either. I can live with that, and the occasional win over a quality team


----------



## Machinehead

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-roman072.html
> 
> 
> "We're not going to sacrifice young talent to make the playoffs. ''


Mmmm. 

Sacrificing young talent and not making the playoffs seems like a far better plan

Nice one Jerry.


----------



## GB

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-roman072.html
> 
> 
> 
> "We're not going to sacrifice young talent to make the playoffs. We're not going to sacrifice the chance to win big later on to make the playoffs. And we think we're in position to win big later on.


OT (for this thread ) : Does the above mean ---> "No trades" ?


----------



## DaBullz

Sounds like no trades to me. Maybe time to make a new thread ;-)


----------



## BamaBull

*To ME, its a wash when I know for a fact...*



> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> Good point. Just what does "season is a wash" mean?
> 
> To me, it means, "we don't have a chance to make the playoffs."
> 
> To others, it might mean, "we won't win the championship."
> 
> In either case, when wasn't the season a wash?
> 
> I don't remember anyone predicting playoffs during the preseason. So, I guess it was a wash after we won the first two games, even.
> 
> Maybe we should be asking the question, "is next season a wash?" already.
> 
> LOL



...that the Bulls cannot get the last playoff spot as I am REALLY looking forward to coming to chicago(on my own money...sniff..sniff...sniff) but having a playoff ticket waiting for me (VD) and some good chicago grubb(Tom was it?)...now I gotta find a place to crash......?????? lol


----------



## BamaBull

*Oh, there WILL be a trade by the deadline.....*



> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> Sounds like no trades to me. Maybe time to make a new thread ;-)


*Count on it ladies and gentlemen!!!*


----------



## ScottMay

As Christian Laettner drilled jumpshot after jumpshot to essentially seal tonight's game for the Buzards, I thought to myself, man it would have been nice to give Chandler and Curry lots and lots and lots of run and plays during that six-game homestand, or, God in Heaven forbid, more than 30 seconds of a Jay-Jamal backcourt.

Ugh. Nothing would please me more than the Bulls beating that old bald a-hole, but it doesn't seem to be in the cards.


----------



## GB

:boohoo:


----------



## Tri_N

When will we replace our two idiots, Meyer and Berry, with real X and O guys that will put us over the top? If we are to be a top team in this league, I can't imagine having these two bozos behind Cartwright. BC needs to make a decision right now of whether to keep these two and get fired along with them as time goes by. This is a case of Dick Jauron where he's too damn loyal to Shoop.


----------



## Future

Hey man, Meyer is good at talking trash to the other team. He probably teaches our players how to make lucky winning half court shots, or how to get yelled at by Mike Jordan when makin stupid plays. He's a genius....


----------



## Tri_N

First of all, I am a fan of Jay but he needs to be benched. Jamal owns Hughes tonight. I want to see more of Jamal. Jay needs to spend some times on the bench and learn the game.


----------



## BCH

> Originally posted by <b>Tri_N</b>!
> First of all, I am a fan of Jay but he needs to be benched. Jamal owns Hughes tonight. I want to see more of Jamal. Jay needs to spend some times on the bench and learn the game.


Hughes had 22pts 8reb 2stls tonight in 41 minutes. I don't think he did that only against Jay in his 21 minutes. Crawford played ok but his last 3 was pointless, and he gave up a huge basket to Hughes at the end of the game.


----------



## Chops

Did Hughes have any assists tonight? That guy is a SG playing the point.


----------



## BCH

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> Did Hughes have any assists tonight? That guy is a SG playing the point.


No assists tonight but the way the Wizards play it is a moot point because Hughes can guard the other teams PG. He ran the break fairly well in the second half and had a couple of passes that led to the pass for the assist. If you look at the tape, Hughes initiated the offense, but Stack or MJ created from the wing. Hughes fits PG for the Wizards extremely well and he has been shooting great as well. He didn't go to Stack too much tonight, and he really helped feed Kwame in the second.


----------



## Chops

Yeah, but I still think he is a SG. I think he can play PG though, when he has other guys who can create.


----------



## ScottMay

At this point I'm really not sure how even the most obstinate amongst you can't see how the season is a complete wash.

The Bulls are going to lose over 90% of their road games this year, and they're on a pace to lose 40% of their road games consecutively. How in the world is this considered progress? I don't care if they're losing the games by 1 point in quadruple overtime or by 80 points in regulation. This is Bad News Bears, '88 Orioles, Cincinnati Bengals territory, y'all.

Cartwright is no more of a NBA caliber coach than I am. Playing Eddy Curry 4 minutes against the Bucks' NBDL front-line is a move beneath even the likes of Tim Floyd. 

This season's a wash, but it's worse than that. I will bet anyone that by the time the Bulls next make the playoffs, not a single guy that boarded the bus outside the Bradley Center tonight will be on the roster. Take it to the Fifth Third Bank.

We've all been had.


----------



## BCH

When will the season officially become a wash for Curry if not the Bulls? Is his progress taking a beating now over the attempt by Cartwright to make a point? I understand Curry needs to learn to rebound, but when the chips are on the table, and he still isn't at least getting a chance to improve the other parts of his game as well, does it hurt his development? Should Cartwright be fired if he can't get through to his young big and retarding Curry's growth by a year? The Bulls are slowly losing traction again, and soon the only thing left will be player development. Do Rose and Marshall get shut down to make sure Jamal, Jay, Fizer, Curry, and Chandler get as much time as possible? Does Jamal get his chance at the SG spot at that point?


----------



## ScottMay

Jamal Crawford play 2 guard? Come on, now, that's crazy talk. You're clearly not down with the rigid dogmatic ways of our genius coach, Bill Cartwright. The Bulls might not be a threat to beat a crippled puppy on the road, but they'll play ball the "right" way and shoot 25% from the line to boot.

This season is as done as the pile of home fries on the griddle of a Waffle House at 4 in the morning. Finished, kaput, stick a fork in it, good night.


----------



## BCH

I am going to predict the Bulls are once again going to have a tough year from this point out but play really well the last 10 games. That is to give some fans something to look forward to...the last 10 games.


----------



## ScottMay

While Jordan, Pippen, and Jackson spent ten years winning ballgames, Reinskrause was studying the Cubs playbook--sell "next year" like nobody's business, hire a shill like Tom "Caray" Dore to keep the masses salivating, watch the money roll in and stuff it under your fat rolls.

This is exactly what it must have been like to be a Cubs fan at about the same time WWI broke out. Strangely enough the historical parallel does little to console me.


----------



## BCH

You will be singing a different tune over those last 10 games.

The Bulls right now remind me of a certain Tin Man in the Wizard of Oz. They responded to BC last season because he provided the heart, but lately it seems like it is eroding Cartwright. I first noticed it during the Wizards home game in the blowout, he just had a certain look in his eye that I didn't associate with MJ making his return. He did look a little better in the rematch but just seemed stretched a little too thin.

I think the Bulls needed a few more days at home. It is like they were drowning and caught just enough air over their homestand not to drown immediately, but they didn't get enough air to fight back and survive.

Two quality road wins in a row might be enought to turn the corner, but it is going to be difficult to achieve. They are going to need some luck, but there is still time to do it while they are on this roadtrip. To fail completely on this roadtrip might spell the real end.


----------



## GB

Plenty of time left.

The kids are developing, the defense is improving.

We'll be alright...

Noone thought we'd get over the hump after losing nine on the road---and yet--we did.

Same for last nights game. Anyone who thinks less underestimates this team.


----------



## ScottMay

Sorry for the predictable bump. Not to take the suspense away or anything, but they'll be automatic until this Godzilla-like road winless streak goes away.

Unfortunately, this was about as good a chance as the Bulls will have to win a road game all year long. The Knicks were 0-7 in the second game of back-to-backs and are a lousy home team. A 1-41 road record is not out of the question. A 5-36 road record is looking like a miracle at this point.

My big realization tonight, though, was this: in 38 games, Cartwright hasn't had the team's BEST lineup--taking into account game situation, who's playing well and who's not, and individual matchups--even once. Not even for 30 seconds. That is a scary thought when you consider most NBA teams manage to accomplish it 20-30 minutes a game. I understand he's been given a terrible team to coach, but he's just completely overmatched out there, and he has by far the worst assistants corps in the league.

For now, though, I guess the Bulls' braintrust's first priority ought to be rebuilding Jay Williams. They have broken him and reduced him to a shadow of what he could be. It was sad to watch him tonight and to think about how many times I've seen the same person completely dominate at MSG, knocking down 28-foot threes like they were layups, causing utter mayhem on the defensive end, completely dictating the pace of the game. Now he's just a zombie counting down the days until his rookie contract expires. What a waste.

Can someone e-mail me when Coach Bill plays Crawford at the 2 for a few minutes (no offense to those "gamers" Freddie and Trentie)? I'm done watching until then, and in case you forgot, the season is absolutely a wash.


----------



## DaBullz

You'll be predictably bumping this thread about 50 times (total) for the season.

Many of us don't call that a season that's a wash.

Cheers


----------



## Future

Wash


----------



## Killuminati

> You'll be predictably bumping this thread about 50 times (total) for the season.


This thread will continue to come up unless the Bulls win 9 or 10 in a row and get back to .500 (very unlikely)...


----------



## chifaninca

The real "Wash" will be when Bill realizes this is not our year to crack the playoffs. We have played like a young team, inconsistent with flashes of excitement. Unfortunately, When we look at developmental progress, this season is risking becoming disastrous. 

Curry looks no better than Ostertag. Fizer is playing hard - so he can be traded. Crawford is jerked around more than a yo-yo. Hassell has become a defensive only player with regressing offensive skills. Didn't we keep Randy Brown on the bench to play D.....oh, sorry, Hassell is that important. Only Chandler is showing real growth IMHO. Unfortunately, it's as a CENTER, not a PF. Even articles, like the trib's one tonite, refer to CHandler as a Center.

I am a huge Curry, Chandler, Jay fan but......I am scared of becoming the Clippers Midwest..........wait, too late. We are the Clippers. I am cursed. Atleast we have better ownership.

I am looking for development, not the playoffs. I don't want round one and outs for ten years. I want championships. Curry has become an all-world bench sitter. Can we buy him a vowel (and a heart) and work him into being a true player.


Venting......


Chifaninca


----------



## GB

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> Now he's just a zombie counting down the days until his rookie contract expires. What a waste.


Thats just plain unfair, and even more, it's wrong.



> Can someone e-mail me when Coach Bill plays Crawford at the 2 for a few minutes (no offense to those "gamers" Freddie and Trentie)? I'm done watching until then


Good riddance. How about posting too?

This thread needs a lock.


----------



## DaBullz

I understand your frustration, GB, but I won't lock this thread.

It keeps coming back and back and back... hehehe

But there's room here for differing views of things. It's easy to understand ScottMay's frustration, too - it's year 5 of rebuilding, and the only draft picks we've got that have developed into quality NBA players are Fizer and Hassell. The future is uncertain, though we (perhaps) agree that it sure looks a lot brighter to us than others may think it is.

Peace!


----------



## GB

I gotta disagree.


NOTHING NEW IS BEING STATED IN THIS THREAD.

We all know Scotts gripes, they're recorded here for posterity. All thats happens is it's brought up as an "I told you so" after each LOSS for arguments and complaints that would be better served in THE GAME THREAD.

Perhaps later, when the end of the season is here, we can unlock and reopen the argument.

But for now, it's just being used as a club brought up after each loss to bash those who disagree.

Put another way: BCH would ban me lickety split if I started a new thread after each wizards loss saying "MJ should not have returned" 

He'd tell me that I'd made my point, it had been discussed, NOW MOVE ON.

Let's move on. We know the gripe and can hear it in the game thread if we want. At least there we have the option of ignoring posters. We don't have the option of ignoring threads here.


----------



## DaBullz

Well, like I said, I understand your point of view. 

I don't mind your frank/honest talk; you won't get in trouble with me for doing so. I think it's reasonable to discuss that you think this thread should be locked. My view is that you have the choice to not post to this thread if you don't want to... I'm not interested in censoring anyone, especially if their view happens to differ from mine (which it does in this case!).

If it weren't Bulls fans who were making these kinds of posts, I'd call it out-and-out flame baiting. But it is Bulls fans (more than just one guy), and there's the rub. These guys are following the games, watching them on TV, listening on the radio or web, and posting to the game threads. They do get excited when the team wins, and perhaps they get too down when they lose.

If you remember my old signature, it said "the optimist sees the glass half full and the pessimist sees it three-quarters empty." Well, we have some fans that are pessimists, rightly so or wrongly so. I'm game to let 'em call 'em like they see 'em. 

There are 5 other mods, besides myself here. I see that none of them have locked this thread. I won't stand in their way of doing so if they choose.


----------



## BamaBull

*I agree DaBullz....*



> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> I understand your frustration, GB, but I won't lock this thread.
> 
> It keeps coming back and back and back... hehehe
> 
> But there's room here for differing views of things. It's easy to understand ScottMay's frustration, too - it's year 5 of rebuilding, and the only draft picks we've got that have developed into quality NBA players are Fizer and Hassell. The future is uncertain, though we (perhaps) agree that it sure looks a lot brighter to us than others may think it is.
> 
> Peace!


When it comes to the point that we cannot voice our "individual" opinions, communism will have a death grip on our society! As long as no one is attacked or ridiculed, I am all for leaving this thread alone...good posts...I might not agree with any of em, but good posts....just kidding! 

keep venting GB...some of us have the same pet peeves concerning this organization/team. Sometimes we reiterate what someone else might have said........remember how frustrated YOU are about this team..so are others. We all just vent differently...ya think?


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

> Originally posted by <b>Killuminati</b>!
> 
> 
> This thread will continue to come up unless the Bulls win 9 or 10 in a row and get back to .500 (very unlikely)...


You may be right, but the question is "Why?" The thread won't be locked -- no reason for that. I definitely share the frustration. I ask though -- what constitutes a "wash" as it applies to the Bulls this season? 

From what I recall of pre-season predictions and stated hopes for this team, this season, here, in the Chicago papers, in the national magazines, everywhere, the consenus seemed to be that an 8 seed was highly unlikely this year and that a 30 or so win season would be a great indicator that this young team was making adequate progress and developing.

Well, the Bulls have 14 wins, several weeks before the all-star break and already having weathered the deadly long west coast stretch. The team is easily on pace to meet the reasonable goals we set out at the beginning. With continued improvement, which I do expect to see, the Bulls will have a higher winning percentage in the second half than they did in the first half. Accordingly, while a playoff spot remains a longshot at best, I think this team, as infuriating as it can be to watch at times, is on a pace to meet or beat all reasonable pre-season predictions, as published by the national sports pundits and as voiced here on our own boards.

This was supposed to be a season of growing, not a season of contending and we've seen tremendous growth -- from Donyell, who is having a breakout year, from Marcus, who's having a breakout year, from Tyson, who is developing nicely, from Jamal, who is finally healthy and showing us what he can do on a regular basis. Eddy is just now finally starting to show signs he's catching on. I look for Eddy and Jay to both really start to show us something in the second half. (Not that I have any real problem with Jay's development in the first half -- just saying he's going to continue to improve).

I admit it. I'm getting impatient just like everyone else. I admit that I got frustrated last night ands ended up watching L.A. Confidential on TNT for a while from halfime into the 4th quarter, because I couldn't stand to watch.

But this was not going to be a 40+ win season. Nobody expected such at the beginning and nobody SHOULD have expected that type of immediate payoff from this roster. The worst thing that's happened to us as fans was the two wins out of the gate last November. All of our realistic analysis immediately went out the window and we've never sufficiently recovered.

30+ wins. That's all I'm looking for and we're on pace. As said in the Trib this morning:


> At this time last year they were 7-30. They have doubled their victory total thus far, making them one of the league's most improved teams


This season is not a wash when you look at the larger picture.

After this season, though, I'm going to be ready to set expectations toward kicking some booty.


----------



## truebluefan

very nice post TB#1. I agree with most of it.


----------



## Tri_N

This thread will die out when Curry starts to play like a man and Jay lives to his hype.


----------



## Chops

We lost. Time to bump up this thread.


----------



## DaBullz

ROFLMAO


----------



## ScottMay

I must be crazy not to be an optimist.

18 road losses in a row (I guess it could be worse; at least Miami didn't beat the piss out of the Bulls the way most teams do) and the three players the team has put each and every one of its chips on are regressing at an alarmingly quick rate.

What am I thinking?


----------



## FJ_of _Rockaway

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> I must be crazy not to be an optimist.
> 
> 18 road losses in a row (I guess it could be worse; at least Miami didn't beat the piss out of the Bulls the way most teams do) and the three players the team has put each and every one of its chips on are regressing at an alarmingly quick rate.
> 
> What am I thinking?


Dr Kervorkian I presume ?


----------



## ScottMay

Sorry, everyone, I know how this pisses most of you off, but this was the worst loss in a season full of bad losses.

Our coach is way, way, way over his head when it comes to rotations. I like his philosophy, I like his approach to the game, and I like his temperament, but he has become the worst bench coach in the league, bar none. The team's improved enough that it has a decent margin for error at home, but on the road we need to have our best lineup--given score, time, and opponent's personnel--on the floor as much as possible. Cartwright simply doesn't know how to do this. 

And yet again, Curry and Chandler take little away from this one. Chandler was the Bulls best player tonight, plain and simple. His reward? Sit on the bench for the last 15 minutes of the game and watch Corie Blount turn the ball over, repeatedly get abused on the defensive glass, and have no interior presence whatsoever. 

Some changes are in order. If the vets aren't going to bring home a win against a team that shoots 31% from the floor, it's time for Bulls management to proclaim the season is a wash and force feed playing time to the kids. This team is on pace to win 4 road games; the playoffs aren't even a remote possibility. Let's get our priorities in order and start separating wheat from chaff.


----------



## GB

The kids are developing nicely...that alone makes the season worth playing. Some may argue with Cartwrights method of doing it ('WAH WAH WAH! THEY NEED TO *PLAY A LOT*') but I doubt they are NBA coaches and know more than Cartwright. And team defense (in microsteps) is developing.

Again, "Wash" means "would have been better not to do it". Can't say it about this season. There has been some good.


Oh...and this thread needs to be locked.


----------



## truebluefan

we are still 7 weeks ahead of last year.


----------



## GB

Yup.


It's sad, but you get the feeling that _some_ people are sitting on pins and needles waiting for a loss so they can have something to complain about.

Sad:no:


----------



## ScottMay

> Originally posted by <b>gettinbranded</b>!
> Yup.
> 
> 
> It's sad, but you get the feeling that _some_ people are sitting on pins and needles waiting for a loss so they can have something to complain about.
> 
> Sad:no:


You couldn't more completely misapprehend my thoughts or "motives" for this thread if you tried.


----------



## GB

Don't have to. There are 11 pages worth of evidence for anyone interested enough to go looking.

Your name is Mariotti, isn't it? Or he's an Uncle or something, right?


----------



## RayMond Felton

> Originally posted by <b>gettinbranded</b>!
> Don't have to. There are 11 pages worth of evidence for anyone interested enough to go looking.
> 
> Your name is Mariotti, isn't it? Or he's an Uncle or something, right?



LOL, now that is funny.


----------



## Outkast1

Scott, certainly the road woes are disheartening, but how has this season been a wash? What exactly were you expecting? A playoff berth? In my opinion the only setback has been the development of Curry, and perhaps the injury to Williams (which may end up being a positive). However, the emergence of Fizer as a legit lowpost threat coupled with Marshall's acquisition has been a boon. As has Chandler's modest progress. I'm pleasantly shocked that this team will likely finish with a +.500 record at home and push 35 wins.


----------



## Spartacus Triumvirate

*Season is a wash?*

Cartwrights about to "say it ain't so". KCJohnson's new piece seems to indicate good ole Bill is about to shift into the All Development, All the Time phase of his master plan by the end of the month.

Nonetheless, it is with great honor, I bump this on up to the top after such a PUTRID loss since Scotty is nowhere to be found.


----------



## FJ_of _Rockaway

*Re: Season is a wash?*



> Originally posted by <b>Spartacus Triumvirate</b>!
> Cartwrights about to "say it ain't so". KCJohnson's new piece seems to indicate good ole Bill is about to shift into the All Development, All the Time phase of his master plan by the end of the month.
> 
> Nonetheless, it is with great honor, I bump this on up to the top after such a PUTRID loss since Scotty is nowhere to be found.


Good point 

Now that Cartwright looks like he's handing the keys to the kids - that means that this thread is perhaps at last starting to be worthy of its title


----------



## Outkast1

If this move yields an improvement in their (specifically Williams/Curry/Tyson) all around game, I don't see how the season can be considered a wash. Unless of course you expected the Bulls to compete for a playoff spot this year, in which I case I'd suggest you re-evaluate.


----------



## FJ_of _Rockaway

> Originally posted by <b>Outkast</b>!
> If this move yields an improvement in their (specifically Williams/Curry/Tyson) all around game, I don't see how the season can be considered a wash. Unless of course you expected the Bulls to compete for a playoff spot this year, in which I case I'd suggest you re-evaluate.


Agree

Ise only messin with Scott (dis)May


----------



## Spartacus Triumvirate

Tonight did look like we won't have a lot to look forward to the rest of the year. Hammered by a weak team. Something tells me we'll carry this losing momentum right through the homestand this time around.


----------



## truebluefan

outkast, i can see where if some bulls fans thought we were to make the playoffs this year would be disappointed. They set their goals too high considering the youth on this team. Wouldnt you agree? 

I have remained steady on 32 wins. That might change now that fizer is out. But anyway you look at it the kids might get to play more now. As long as they dont get into foul trouble. I think Chandler has improved his overall game but last night against Seattle reminds us just how far he has to go yet. 

Curry the last three or four games is playing very well on offense! I am pleased with that. 

As both of these giants get older and stronger, the bobbled balls and missed shots they get when they get bumped will be less and less likely. 

Jay will? I wont argue, he is struggling. But he will figure it out. Might not be this year, but then again it could be. This is new to him. Playing against quality pgs every game. No time off!


----------



## Bullsmaniac

Well since the Bulls will likely go 0-5 on this road trip, I thought I would bump this up.
Besides no Fizer the rest of the season and we got Dali back.
This JINXED team has no hope!
:curse:


----------



## chifaninca

I brought this back to life cause the season is half over and it's gotta be time to admit that this season is now a verifiable WASH OUT.

Looking at the team I am filled with non-stop frustration.........

Looking at the Coach I am very disappointed. I am pulling for Bill, but he may not be the Head Coach to lead this team. His recent negative comments have really let me down. 

Looking at the Organization - well, I won't go there.

Looking at the team - Very disappointed. 

Williams - Maybe Duke Players aren't that good. He's certainly not the "Can't miss prospect" everyone claimed. It's early, but he has a long way to go. PS - should've taken a page from his own book and declined the invite tot he All-Star weekend festivities, like he did when he turned down Leno.

Crawford - Actually playing with heart and if he played for a supportive coach would be more confident and be more productive.

Brunson - Nice to have, worse to need.

Hassell - Biggest disappointment by far. For a guy who lit it up in college and showed he could defend and shoot last year - he's Randy Brown revisited. Thanks for the 4 minutes of D now head back to the bench while the big boys play.

Robinson - Athleticism that is great on the second team.....a shot that hurts as much to watch as it does clanking down on someone in the paint.

Rose - I love him, I hate Him, I love him, I hate him - Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde - From all-star to scrub. Home court advantage - don't leave home without it.

Fizer - He was showing alot, can only pray he comes back as good - Possible great sixth man.

Masrhall - Vanilla player who seems to get it done ugly. Overall - see Rose comments.

Chandler - Still learning but coming on........just wish he'd flash some outside game.

Curry - Inconsistent and incomplete. Hoping to see major strides 2nd half of this season. (then we can stop talking about Okafor as a draft pick).

The rest are simply that - the rest.



Ohhhh it is tough to be a Bulls fan these days. 

Always told people I would accept 7 years of mediocrity for 6 championships............maybe I am a prophet. Looking forward to getting back to mediocrity.

Taking the last two loses hard..............but still a Bulls fan.......


Chifaninca


----------



## GB

So how does the upcoming 03, 04 season NOT be defined as a wash?

The argument could be made that this team is still relying too heavily on unproven talent. At the end of last season this is what we knew about the people we were counting on.

Eddy can score, always could. But he doesn't stop the other team from getting the points back on the other end of the floor. Tyson? Can stop the other player, but relies too heavily on his teammates to create garbage for him to cleanup so he can contribute on the offensive end. Jamal? Where is this guys mind? He's been messed with too much by the coaches he's had in the NBA, and no one can be entirely sure that Cartwright even _wants_ him to be his full time starter. He may only be there by default.

All three have to show a wide and rapid expansion of their NBA skills. Eddy has to become a defender and gain the respect of the NBA refs on the defensive end. Tyson has to be a consistent threat to score when the ball is in his hands. Jamal has to prove it's about winning, and not about proving himself anymore. That means running the offense the coach asks him to run and shooting and scoring only when the defense dares him by doubling down on the others.

Playoffs or not, the development of these three guys will determine whether Pax's next thoughts turn to rebuilding (again) or moving ahead. And whether you like to hear it or not, if we're going to rebuild, we're a pretty sweet spot in terms of the talent on the roster and what we could gain from them.


----------



## truebluefan

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> So how does the upcoming 03, 04 season NOT be defined as a wash?
> 
> The argument could be made that this team is still relying too heavily on unproven talent. At the end of last season this is what we knew about the people we were counting on.
> 
> Eddy can score, always could. But he doesn't stop the other team from getting the points back on the other end of the floor. Tyson? Can stop the other player, but relies too heavily on his teammates to create garbage for him to cleanup so he can contribute on the offensive end. Jamal? Where is this guys mind? He's been messed with too much by the coaches he's had in the NBA, and no one can be entirely sure that Cartwright even _wants_ him to be his full time starter. He may only be there by default.
> 
> All three have to show a wide and rapid expansion of their NBA skills. Eddy has to become a defender and gain the respect of the NBA refs on the defensive end. Tyson has to be a consistent threat to score when the ball is in his hands. Jamal has to prove it's about winning, and not about proving himself anymore. That means running the offense the coach asks him to run and shooting and scoring only when the defense dares him by doubling down on the others.
> 
> Playoffs or not, the development of these three guys will determine whether Pax's next thoughts turn to rebuilding (again) or moving ahead. And whether you like to hear it or not, if we're going to rebuild, we're a pretty sweet spot in terms of the talent on the roster and what we could gain from them.


Nice post!!


----------



## DaBullz

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> So how does the upcoming 03, 04 season NOT be defined as a wash?


Is it really you, ScottMay?


----------



## Dalibor Bagaric

Hi guys. This is Dalibor

I dont think this season is gonna be a wash. i mean, you would have been better off with me on the team :upset:, but I'll be back soon.:yes:


----------



## Chops

Up..


----------



## 7thwatch

Tonight was a discrace to basketball. My intramurals team plays better than the Bulls are playing right now. I'm one depressed Bulls fan. This year I had a reason to hope. I had high expectations. 

 

Cartwrong needs to get axed. We are turning into the clippers of last year. We have talent but everyone is playing selfish, me first ball. We can't win like that.


----------



## ChiBullsFan

OK, I'm officially ready to call the season a wash. Seriously.

Normally I have a more level head about these things, but the ONE thing this team NEEDED to do was get out to a few games over .500 to begin the season. We were blessed by the grace of god with an easy schedule in our first 7 games (and especially the first 3) before hitting the West Coast swing.

Let's get something straight. We are 1-2 right now out of what should have been three gimmes. Let's say we head into the road trip at 4-5, which is the most likely scenario. We are going to come out of that road trip at 4-10. At that point, our season is over. Period. This team will hang its heads like losers and accept the fact that they aren't a playoff team.

I'm sure at that point, we start making excuses and players complain they've been playing injured, so they miss some games, and all of the sudden the wheels have completely fallen off and we don't ever recover. This team may not beat last year's record. Momentum is everything in this league and it is not going to be in our favor.


----------



## Bulls4Life

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> OK, I'm officially ready to call the season a wash. Seriously.
> 
> Normally I have a more level head about these things, but the ONE thing this team NEEDED to do was get out to a few games over .500 to begin the season. We were blessed by the grace of god with an easy schedule in our first 7 games (and especially the first 3) before hitting the West Coast swing.
> 
> Let's get something straight. We are 1-2 right now out of what should have been three gimmes. Let's say we head into the road trip at 4-5, which is the most likely scenario. We are going to come out of that road trip at 4-10. At that point, our season is over. Period. This team will hang its heads like losers and accept the fact that they aren't a playoff team.
> 
> I'm sure at that point, we start making excuses and players complain they've been playing injured, so they miss some games, and all of the sudden the wheels have completely fallen off and we don't ever recover. This team may not beat last year's record. Momentum is everything in this league and it is not going to be in our favor.


I started a thread saying the Bulls could win 50 games this year. If they do, that means they will have *32 losses!* If they start out 4 - 10 it won't be the end of the world or the season. Having so many players out for the pre-season (Rose, Pip, ERob, Hinrich), they are gonna need to play together for a while before they really begin to gel together. Time to figure out what their roles are, how many minutes they're gonna play, etc... I'd say about 30 games into the season. If they can get to that point with about 12 to 15 wins, they could get "hot" at that point and concievably win 30 of their last 52 to finish at or slightly above .500 which would be an acceptable improvement over the 30 wins of last season. If the 3 C's get it together and dominate like they did at the end of last season by the 30 game mark, they could win 33 - 38 of their last 52 games which would put them near 50 wins, a phenomenal improvement from last season. So hang in there man, it's a long season and it's far too early to give up now.


:woot:


And if we get a more experienced head coach, they might be able to play better before the 30 game plateau.


----------



## ScottVdub

i was about to bump this thread but someone else already did.

THis is rediculous, bill cartwright isnt having his team be prepared to play against possibly the worst team in the nba. That is a sign of terrible coaching when you get severly outplayed by a horrible team.

We are about to go on a westcoast trip soon and we start out by losing to a couple teams we need to beat and the only reason we beat atlanta was because pippen saved us in the 4th quarter, if we have to rely on him to win all of our games then this is gonna be one ****ty season. Im very dissapointed right now, if we go on the westcoast trip and absolutely look horrible i wont be able to pay close attention to this year because I was too excited coming in to be disapointed. im mildly f***ing crazy to begin with and this will push me over the edge.

Im trying to enjoy my weekend, party get wasted n stuff and im sitting here seeing the bulls and all the joy i had from being wasted turned into depression. im suing bill cartwright and the bulls orginization if i have a heart attach from this.


----------



## DaBullz

The problem I see is that we're underestimating the competition.

The Bucks are 2-1. They lost a close game to Minnesota and played well against a pretty stacked team.

They beat Indy 93-79, shooting .542 against a tough defense led by our old friend Artest. Jermaine O'Neal shot 6-18 against them and grabbed just 7 rebounds.

The Bucks are giving up just 81 points per game, which makes them one tough defensive team.

The real problem I see is that we're overestimating our team.


----------



## Salvaged Ship

The losses are one thing. It's the lack of heart and passion, especially from a few of the young players, that is the real concern.

When Floyd was fired and Cartwright replaced him I thought that would light a fire under the young guns to give it "heart and hustle". It didn't change.

Pippen was brought in. Surely his presence alone would get these young guys to play defense with passion and heart. So far it hasn't.

I have said this before. Rarely does a player learn to play with tremendous energy and passion. He seems to either have that quality or he doesn't. 

You can use age, inexperience, injuries,etc. as a crutch for every problem. I just don't see any excuse for effort and passion. 

Curry looks to me like a Benoit Benjamin clone, execpt Benjamin was a decent rebounder and shot blocker. Curry is a sleepwalker who seems to play ball like it was a job, not a passion. Why can't he play with extreme heart and energy now? Even if he was making loads of mistakes, you could visibly see the energy and passion. The guy to me looks like a snail who cannot sum up the energy and aggressiveness to play defense or rebound. Youth and inexperience are excuses for mistakes, not heart and passion. If this guy had Alonzo Mourning's heart he would be a monster. I doubt you can teach this.

Curry looks like one of those lazy teenagers who keeps his room a mess, gives no effort in school, and just wants to lay around and play video games all day. 

Paxson said no excuses. I believe he is a no nonsense guy. Cartwright does look to be a bit clueless, but I am not sure anyone can motivate a few of these guys. If things keep up where Curry gets outrebounded by point guards and plays no defense, and Crawford continues to direct poorly and stink on D, the two will get traded. Chandler will be counted on as the center of the future, and the return we can get for Curry, Crawford, and that bowling ball Fizer will hopefully build a solid foundation for a future team that plays with heart. The Bucks to me look better than in years past without the "big three". If you play scrappy and hustle it make up for so called lack of athleticism or talent.

It is early in the season. But in my opinion, it will take a miracle to light a fire under Eddy where he becomes the type of player we need him to be.


----------



## ScottVdub

> Originally posted by <b>sinkingship</b>!
> 
> Curry looks like one of those lazy teenagers who keeps his room a mess, gives no effort in school, and just wants to lay around and play video games all day.


dude, u just described everything about me.


----------



## Salvaged Ship

> Originally posted by <b>ScottVdub</b>!
> 
> 
> dude, u just described everything about me.


I guess your real name is Eddy Curry! If you play video games, Eddy, try one of those NBA games. Notice how the Eddy Curry in those games scores 30 points, grabs 27 rebs, blocks 15 shots, tears the rim down on every dunk, and doesn't wear shorts down to his ankles!! Copy that guy!


----------



## truebluefan

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> The problem I see is that we're underestimating the competition.
> 
> The Bucks are 2-1. They lost a close game to Minnesota and played well against a pretty stacked team.
> 
> They beat Indy 93-79, shooting .542 against a tough defense led by our old friend Artest. Jermaine O'Neal shot 6-18 against them and grabbed just 7 rebounds.
> 
> The Bucks are giving up just 81 points per game, which makes them one tough defensive team.
> 
> The real problem I see is that we're overestimating our team.


Maybe we baught into all of the preseason hype?? We meaning the players.


----------



## truebluefan

2002-2003, lakers:

first 8 games 2-6. Scored 70 points once. over 100 once. Was the season a wash? 

Granted. We are not the lakers. They were without Shaq. But teams can come together. We wont shoot 31% all season long. 

Many points brought up in here are good points. But its just too early to throw in the towel.


----------



## adarsh1

eddy curry is good but the bulls suck...jamal crawford is an idiot but at least he is better than white stiff kirk hinrich... i know you liked i t when the wizards beat u by 25


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> So how does the upcoming 03, 04 season NOT be defined as a wash?
> 
> The argument could be made that this team is still relying too heavily on unproven talent. At the end of last season this is what we knew about the people we were counting on.
> 
> Eddy can score, always could. But he doesn't stop the other team from getting the points back on the other end of the floor. Tyson? Can stop the other player, but relies too heavily on his teammates to create garbage for him to cleanup so he can contribute on the offensive end. Jamal? Where is this guys mind? He's been messed with too much by the coaches he's had in the NBA, and no one can be entirely sure that Cartwright even _wants_ him to be his full time starter. He may only be there by default.
> 
> All three have to show a wide and rapid expansion of their NBA skills. Eddy has to become a defender and gain the respect of the NBA refs on the defensive end. Tyson has to be a consistent threat to score when the ball is in his hands. Jamal has to prove it's about winning, and not about proving himself anymore. That means running the offense the coach asks him to run and shooting and scoring only when the defense dares him by doubling down on the others.
> 
> Playoffs or not, the development of these three guys will determine whether Pax's next thoughts turn to rebuilding (again) or moving ahead. And whether you like to hear it or not, if we're going to rebuild, we're a pretty sweet spot in terms of the talent on the roster and what we could gain from them.


:sigh: 100% accurate analysis from GB way back in August and the Bulls appear prepared to execute absolutely 0% of what they need to do to avoid a "wash" of a season.


----------



## Guest

It may be too early to write off the whole season, but the evidence is growing in the case of Mariotti and the Headhunters -vs- Cartwright.


----------



## superdave

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> The real problem I see is that we're overestimating our team.


bump

RLIB


----------



## DaBullz

What does RLIB mean? ;-)

"Really Lame Internet Bullsfan"

That'd be me, for sure.


----------



## superdave

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> What does RLIB mean? ;-)
> 
> "Really Lame Internet Bullsfan"
> 
> That'd be me, for sure.


That works too. And it probably includes many of us here on BB.net  Actually RLIB is Rapidly Losing Interest in the Bulls, I started a support group a couple weeks ago.

linkage


----------



## robert60446

Season 2003-04 or 2004-05 is a wash? That's the real question!


----------



## superdave

A couple more years in the toilet and we can make this thread a sticky.

:sigh:


----------



## robert60446

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> A couple more years in the toilet and we can make this thread a sticky.
> 
> :sigh:


It’s not sticky yet? What a shame… :laugh:


----------



## Chi_Lunatic

> Originally posted by <b>robert60446</b>!
> 
> 
> It’s not sticky yet? What a shame… :laugh:


yo, who's the chick in your avatar?


----------



## DaBullz

Maybe we should take a poll to see who thinks the season is officially a wash ;-)


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

Do I think the Season is a Wash?









Actually, "only in Chicago..."




























'Nuff Said.


----------



## robert60446

> Originally posted by <b>Chi_Lunatic</b>!
> 
> 
> yo, who's the chick in your avatar?


All I know, she is working on BMW team!:laugh:


----------



## DaBullz

bump

hahahaha


----------



## arenas809

lololol...


----------



## GB

!LOL!


----------



## such sweet thunder

Is it too early? I wanted to be the first to bump it. . .


----------



## MikeDC

It's never too early with these slugs. Down by 21 at the half. Ick.


----------



## DaBullz

This picture is so good, it needs to be posted again.


----------



## thunderspirit

well, it's nice to know that some things are still predictable: death, taxes, another Bulls season lost... :sigh:


----------



## Chi_Lunatic

I wouldn't be surprised if we only won 10 games this year. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if the bobcats had a better record than us by allstar break.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

This has been far worse than I ever imagined.
I am so disappointed. Crushed, really. My God.


----------



## BG7

> Originally posted by <b>Chi_Lunatic</b>!
> I wouldn't be surprised if we only won 10 games this year. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if the bobcats had a better record than us by allstar break.


wow bold prediction, considering we have the hard schedule early on and the favorable schedule after the allstar break.


----------



## Electric Slim

:laugh:


----------



## GB

This thread is ridiculous


----------



## Chi_Lunatic

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> This thread is ridiculous


as was tonights game.

you try not to look at this loss as being too "deep" but when u lose by damn near 40 pts opening night, you can't help but be dissapointed. I'm pretty sure EVERY player in a bulls uniform was embarrased tonight. I'm also pretty sure atleast half of em thought about demanding a trade LOL


----------



## Tom

i am sooooooooooooo sorry guys...i don't see much happening with this team for a while. Not without some major signing. I mean where is Dave Corzine when you need him  

Hang in there


----------



## MiSTa iBN

I wonder if anyone on the Bulls team watched the Pistons in the playoffs last year.


----------



## DaBullz

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> This thread is ridiculous


First post in this thread was 11-23-2002, and it's still going strong. That's both funny and sad at the same time.

Maybe FJ can explain how something can be funny and sad at the same time.


----------



## kukoc4ever

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> First post in this thread was 11-23-2002, and it's still going strong. That's both funny and sad at the same time.
> 
> Maybe FJ can explain how something can be funny and sad at the same time.


Can I have my name appear twice on the fire Paxson and Skiles club?

Or in bold or like a pissed off red color or something?


----------



## DaBullz

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> 
> 
> Can I have my name appear twice on the fire Paxson and Skiles club?
> 
> Or in bold or like a pissed off red color or something?


Heh heh

My philosophy is "if you build it, they will come"


----------



## such sweet thunder

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> Hey Jim,
> 
> It's ok for guys to be negative. Some people have different expectations than we do for the players and the team. When the team wins, they have to read our happy, happy, joy, joy posts. When the team loses, we have to read posts of the opposite nature. A different breed of fan, but a fan still the same.
> 
> Such is life. Live it, love it, enjoy it. Let's go get 'em tomorrow. There's a lot of basketball left to get into.
> 
> I love reading your posts. Really.
> 
> Regards.


I find this post from Dec. 12, 2002 especially endearing.


----------



## The 6ft Hurdle

You know I thought it would be fun to yell (cyber) out a cheerful "haaaaaaah" to the kool-aid drinkers here, but I just realize that I feel so empty and bad after I do that. 

Naw, just kidding.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

I know it's just a preseason game, but damn we got beat big time.

Ironic how last year we were complaining about Jamal scoring 30 and stuff like that. Now when we refer to "score" and "30", it's exclusively about how much were getting beat by and and how much we can score by the end of the 3rd.

I think someone quickly needs to rush a gallon of the most pristine kool-aid to Kismet's house before he finds out about this game.

But I will still hold back from joining the Fire Pax club. At least until after the 1st game of the season.


----------



## DaBullz

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> I find this post from Dec. 12, 2002 especially endearing.


I used to be optimistic about the team. Then we hired Paxson, he cut our best defensive player and a solid vet, he fired Cartwright (who I liked as coach just fine, thank you), hired Skiles, traded away the closest thing we had to an all-star, traded away a near 20/10 capable player who was a contract bargain, dumped Corrie Blount a day after he might have hooked up with a playoff team, talked down Crawford and ended up trading him for NOTHING, and we're on a downward trend in terms of losing.

That post I made above was in the midst of the 30 win season, which was moving in the right direction. I believed in the players, thought we needed just one more solid vet to be near .500, we had potential players to groom without the pressure of having to play big NBA minutes against actual men, we were so deep people complained about Cartwright's rotations (he played his whole roster), Curry and Chandler and Crawford responded with the best stretch of their careers as a unit, and so on.

You cannot watch this GM make trades where we consistently give up the best player or two in the deal and say with a straight face that we're improving. 

We cannot keep calling the players "cancers" and let management off the hook for their lousy basketball decisions.


----------



## ScottMay

> Originally posted by <b>The 6ft Hurdle</b>!
> I think someone quickly needs to rush a gallon of the most pristine kool-aid to Kismet's house before he finds out about this game.


I have a personal favor to ask of Kismet: before you write your lengthy "Now, Skiles and Paxson are not ones to take this sort of thing sitting down. You can bet that before the season really starts, they'll take account of which of the young men on the Bulls are fine upstanding young men and which ones are just young men. And when the fine upstanding young men have been identified as such, then you'll begin to see just what exactly it is that Skiles and Paxson have planned for the future"-type damage control post, will you please answer the question I posed in the the thread you wrong accused me of calling Skiles a quitter?

_If Skiles and Van Gundy left their previous jobs under such similar circumstances, what explains the vast difference in the dollar amount of the contract each subsequently signed, and why was Van Gundy offered many jobs versus Skiles's single offer from the Bulls?_ 

Thank you.


----------



## GB

After sleeping on it, I feel the same.

This thread, in it's intent and meaning, is ridiculous.


----------



## PC Load Letter

It looks like CCCP bumped this thread at 7:17 CST, which had to be during the 2nd quarter. That's about when Kramer said "I wonder if someone's bumped the "Season is a wash" thread yet?" :laugh:

Predictable, yet unbelievable that this thread is up. It's preseason game 1, people. We have a ton of new players that have barely started playing together and a lot of them are rookies. If Game 1 of the regular season is this bad, let's panic then. I really don't think I'm in denial or anything here and I think this game meant very little.

I also realize that won't mean anything to most of you who already believe the season really is a wash. :whoknows: :grinning:


----------



## bullet

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> It looks like CCCP bumped this thread at 7:17 CST, which had to be during the 2nd quarter. That's about when Kramer said "I wonder if someone's bumped the "Season is a wash" thread yet?" :laugh:
> 
> Predictable, yet unbelievable that this thread is up. It's preseason game 1, people. We have a ton of new players that have barely started playing together and a lot of them are rookies. If Game 1 of the regular season is this bad, let's panic then. I really don't think I'm in denial or anything here and I think this game meant very little.
> 
> I also realize that won't mean anything to most of you who already believe the season really is a wash. :whoknows: :grinning:


I agree about the calm down approach!

Yes , it was Ugly , and we should have been a litle more respectable (sad the choice of words)

But - as most of us thought ahead of the game - this is not our season.I'd say most of us gave the team 30-35 wins , and even that looks optimistic at the moment.This game really not mean to much just as some wins we had last preseason.those guys on court hardly played together and we were playing against a veteran team that would probably make 2nd round in playoffs=about 2-3 levels above us anyway.Celts have a VERY strong Veteran backcourt with good depth (Tony Allen as a surprise addition) , and a frontcourt that just got back "hungry to play" Raef and solid Blount.They played them alot while we played the new guys more - thats not a fair fight to start with.

Skiles has some thinking to do and regardless to who was on the floor 2nd and 3rd quarter Skiles has to fix the situation of loosing the head for full periouds!


----------



## ace20004u

Anyone still thinking playoffs should have their head examined. Al Jefferson looked better than ANYONE on the Bulls. Yeah, it was just a preseason game...normally it would be meaningless...but no game is meaningless when you lose by 30. I am seriously wondering if this team can win 20 games next season...


----------



## ScottMay

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> After sleeping on it, I feel the same.
> 
> This thread, in it's intent and meaning, is ridiculous.


So you can honestly say with a straight face, or keyboard, that 2002-2003 _wasn't_ a wash? 

That was my "intent" and "meaning" in starting this thread, plain and simple. Just because it was born from frustration doesn't mean the message isn't true.


----------



## BG7

This is what we are going to have this season.

A Tyson Chandler that is going to chip in 6-12 points a night and will pull down 12-15 rebounds a night.

A Eddy Curry that will get us 20 and 7.

A Kirk Hinrich that will get us 12-15 and will lead the offense.


Then as far as rookies go. Ben Gordon will be able to score but will have high turnovers just like Hinrich did last year. Luol Deng is the most ready, and will be an important part to the team being a bust to a halfway decent team. Andres Niocini will transition like Manu Ginobli did. At first he will have some foul trouble but then eventually he will well adjust and be a valuable asset.

As a fan I have to ask you this. We have had 6 seasons of rebuilding so why should we the fans accept anything less then playoffs after 6 horrendous years.


----------



## such sweet thunder

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> It looks like CCCP bumped this thread at 7:17 CST, which had to be during the 2nd quarter. That's about when Kramer said "I wonder if someone's bumped the "Season is a wash" thread yet?" :laugh:


Hey,  it was a unilateral action, but it's nice to know there is a coalition of support. 

I'm not sure what "wash" means. But, this is not a playoff season. Maybe this brutal loss will push towards more reasonable expectations.


----------



## Machinehead

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> First post in this thread was 11-23-2002, and it's still going strong. That's both funny and sad at the same time.
> 
> Maybe FJ can explain how something can be funny and sad at the same time.


You listen to any of the great comics talk about their craft and the one thing that is common that they all say is that the best humor is borne out of great tragedy 

My explanation ?

Coping mechanism


----------



## dsouljah9

Sometimes, I think that some people on this board want the Bulls to lose. "The Season Is A Wash" after just one preseason game. What would have had they won by 30, would y'all have started odering playoff tickets?


----------



## GB

> Originally posted by <b>dsouljah9</b>!
> Sometimes, I think that some people on this board want the Bulls to lose.


Sadly, I concur.

I think they like the drama more than the basketball because it provides some sort of release or it frees them from internal strife. When the team starts winning, they'll stay negative hoping for another Krause/Jackson/MJ repeat.

Theres no reason for this thread to exist at this point in the season.


----------



## The 6ft Hurdle

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Sadly, I concur.
> 
> I think they like the drama more than the basketball because it provides some sort of release or it frees them from internal strife. When the team starts winning, they'll stay negative hoping for another Krause/Jackson/MJ repeat.
> 
> Theres no reason for this thread to exist at this point in the season.


And I'll confirm it, at least for me. 

Supporting the Bulls is like supporting your brother who also managed to sleep with your wife. You love him and all, but you feel that that punk deserves what's coming to him. 

I love this team in that I will keep following them no matter what as you can see me here occasionally, but I don't like them as in I don't particularly like how this team has been managed under Pax and how players have been put in tough positions to do anything when he's the one who's been screwing up. 

I'm not in the fire Pax club yet because I still want to see what he's got next and how the season actually unfolds, but so far he looks to be failing pretty badly. So I say just feel like he should just continue to fail and fail hard and make it a very apparent failure so the org can move more swiftly.


----------



## BG7

bump


----------



## 7thwatch

It had to be done!


----------



## spongyfungy

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## spongyfungy

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:





> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> This thread is ridiculous


:yes: :yes: :yes:


----------



## ScottMay

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> So you can honestly say with a straight face, or keyboard, that 2002-2003 _wasn't_ a wash?


Anyone?


----------



## Wynn

[email protected] BULL!!! We'll never win another game!!!!

Time to trade the veterans and LET THE KIDS PLAY!!!!!


----------



## Wynn

*
FIRE PAX!!!


FIRE SKILES!!!


TRADE THE WHOLE TEAM!!!
*


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> This has been far worse than I ever imagined.
> I am so disappointed. Crushed, really. My God.


You have to admit it was an almost inexplicably ugly start.

I'm in a much better bovine place now.


----------



## truebluefan

Break up the team. We can't have this much success in Chicago.


----------



## BG7

To think, we have Eddy Curry's nut punch in the preseason to thank for all the winning.


----------



## Wynn

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> To think, we have Eddy Curry's nut punch in the preseason to thank for all the winning.


I was hoping EDDY would get a few nut punches in tonight against the whiny Piston!!!!


----------



## VincentVega

Fire Skiles!

Fire Paxson!

Fire everybody!

Blow up the team!


----------



## fleetwood macbull

It is time. It was always time. Even B4 it was time


----------



## GB

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> 
> 
> Can I have my name appear twice on the fire Paxson and Skiles club?
> 
> Or in bold or like a pissed off red color or something?


Wanna have it removed?


----------



## GB

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> I am seriously wondering if this team can win 20 games next season...


Um...


----------



## ace20004u

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Um...


I like my crow on toasted hoagie rolls....


----------



## ScottMay

So the fact that the Bulls have turned the corner means the 2002-2003 season wasn't a wash?

This must be the same sort of thinking that leads to Michael Jordan's name barely appearing in the Bulls' media guide -- you know, until you get to the records and awards section.


----------



## The 6ft Hurdle

I don't think anyone can criticize us for being wrong based on logic. Looking at plain history and stats, there was nothing to indicate. Not even Pax, our own GM, the guy who deals with talent and players, as indicated by our slogan, thought we'd be this good. 

What keeps this thread going is people not liking what they perceive as our emotional reactions. They want to shout the Fire Pax ! routine not particularly because we were wrong and had faulty reasoning but because they want to establish an emotional superiority. Maybe to establish their true "fandom", separate from "bandwagon fandom." 

OK you guys had the emotional edge all along I guess.

I particularly had a vile post in the last page or so about wanting Pax to fail so we could move on quickly. My bad.


----------



## The 6ft Hurdle

Double post.


----------



## fleetwood macbull

> Originally posted by <b>The 6ft Hurdle</b>!
> I don't think anyone can criticize us for being wrong based on logic. Looking at plain history and stats, there was nothing to indicate. Not even Pax, our own GM, the guy who deals with talent and players, as indicated by our slogan, thought we'd be this good.


ahhhh, yet Pax had hope. Theres nothing wrong with being wrong. The part that got excesive, was the barrage of negativity. It was heavy gunfire. True it was way too much to expect things to turnaround this season....... The problem was with totally throwing Pax and Skiles under the bus already. They just started. They were aiming for next season anyways.

Pax said...... "2 Years"
and people wanted to kill him. Literally it felt like. countless posts aday of really powerful trashing. Excesive

I doubt those who had hope for Paxsons 2 year plan would be getting on you guys (i'm not either BTW  ) for being wrong about him, or simply disagreeing....................They are getting their backs up about the overwhelming global thermonuclear assault. It was way to much :yes:


----------



## DaBullz

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> 
> ahhhh, yet Pax had hope. Theres nothing wrong with being wrong. The part that got excesive, was the barrage of negativity. It was heavy gunfire. It was way too much, to expect things to turnaround this season. The problem was with totally throwing Pax and Skiles under the bus already. They just started. They were aiming for next season anyways.
> 
> Pax said...... "2 Years"
> and people wanted to kill him. Literally it felt like. countless posts aday of really powerful trashing. Excesive
> 
> I doubt those who had hope for Paxsons 2 year plan would be getting on you guys (i'm not either BTW  ) for being wrong about him....................They are getting their backs up about the overwhelming global thermonuclear assault. It was way to much :yes:


Actually, Paxson said "playoffs" when he took over, and we tanked. Then he said "tank until 2006" and we win.

He's _smart_.


----------



## fleetwood macbull

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually, Paxson said "playoffs" when he took over, and we tanked. Then he said "tank until 2006" and we win.
> 
> He's _smart_.


ahh the continuous lemony sour taste :laugh:

EDIT OK sorry for the levity. I just like a pretend laugh even though i aint funny

Look this is the same 1000000000000000year old (it seems like) argument. Pax isn't perfect. I never expected him to be. He gave it a shot, it didn't work at first, and he decided to smartly go in another direction. And he's doing nicely at it. Thats the definition of smart, and practical...and most of all, a quality GM


----------



## DaBullz

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> 
> ahh the continuous lemony sour taste :laugh:


I'm glad you have a sense of humor, because I was trying to be funny.


----------



## fleetwood macbull

well I'm up to speed now amigo. 

I adressed the point in edit though


----------



## giusd

Yo dudes,

We are all bulls fans here so lets let this tread die. Some posted wrote some things, were frustrated, we were losing, fine. But they are like us, bulls nuts, we are winning now so enough. The posts are up beat from almost everyone.

I am not intestested in calling people out but i am very interested in reading view points, ideas, predictions. So lets push those treads up and can these. We are 26 and 23 and like everyone else it still seems hard to believe. lets all sit back and enjoy this remarkable season.

david


----------



## The Krakken

I'm so happy I resisted the urge to contribute to this thread (though the urge was really to start it).


----------



## bullsville

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> 
> ahhhh, yet Pax had hope. Theres nothing wrong with being wrong. The part that got excesive, was the barrage of negativity. It was heavy gunfire. True it was way too much to expect things to turnaround this season....... The problem was with totally throwing Pax and Skiles under the bus already. They just started. They were aiming for next season anyways.
> 
> Pax said...... "2 Years"
> and people wanted to kill him. Literally it felt like. countless posts aday of really powerful trashing. Excesive
> 
> I doubt those who had hope for Paxsons 2 year plan would be getting on you guys (i'm not either BTW  ) for being wrong about him, or simply disagreeing....................They are getting their backs up about the overwhelming global thermonuclear assault. It was way to much :yes:


E would have killed him. Literally. I'm surprised he didn't, when he was sitting there right behind the bench, and the players were telling E to keep giving it to Skiles, and E said that the players were afraid to talk on the bench...

Ahhhh, good times... :laugh:


----------



## bullsville

Sorry


----------



## bullsville

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually, Paxson said "playoffs" when he took over, and we tanked. Then he said "tank until 2006" and we win.
> 
> He's _smart_.


No, he didn't say "playoffs", he said "no excuses". Well, he took ZERO excuses. 

-We got off to a lousy start? He fired the coach and dumped the biggest malcontent to bring in some guys with the right attitude (the main one, AD, is our captain and enforcer, Dammit Pax!!).

-He brought in a bunch of "NBDL scrubs" and Skiles proved his point- bust your ***, and you play. Loaf, and you get exiled to Canada.

-He told Jamal "I pay for winning, not stats", and then he got us a few very important role players and dumped Jamal and his "excuses".

Well, as you saw last night, Jalen has taken the Raptors right under his wing, and Jamal's game has really taken off in the Big Apple [/SARCASM]. Dammit Pax!! 


Oh, and obviously Pax didn't plan to "tank until 2006", don't make stuff up. If you are tanking, you don't get a lottery pick a year early (Deng trade), and then grab a guy who you were lucky lasted until #7, do you? 

You see, if Pax were going to tank, we would have wanted the lottery pick next summer, since we were going to suck this season. We wouldn't want to add another good player, see that makes you win more games and that is the opposite of tanking.

Dammit Pax!!


----------



## dsouljah9

Bump. :clown:


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

dsouljah9 said:


> Bump. :clown:



     :curse:


----------



## truebluefan

Well, look at this way...

It made it all the way until Christmas this year!


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

truebluefan said:


> Well, look at this way...
> 
> It made it all the way until Christmas this year!


:laugh: Good point!!!



For the Bulls Board...










A...New...World...Record!!!


:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:


----------



## dsouljah9

I'm glad to have established a new record. And trueblue, I like the cut of your jib :biggrin:


----------



## DaBullz

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> :laugh: Good point!!!
> 
> 
> 
> For the Bulls Board...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A...New...World...Record!!!
> 
> 
> :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:


Judges:
9.8 9.8 9.8 6.5 9.8 9.8

Damn French Judge.


----------



## Ron Cey

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> :laugh: Good point!!!
> 
> 
> 
> For the Bulls Board...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A...New...World...Record!!!
> 
> 
> :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:


That dude has breasts. He should do some push-ups or something to tighten that up.


----------



## dsouljah9

Uh Ron, that's a girl _not_ a guy. :raised_ey


----------



## DaBullz

dsouljah9 said:


> Uh Ron, that's a girl _not_ a guy. :raised_ey


He knows, but he really confused things. She used to NOT have breasts...


----------



## dsouljah9

OOOOOOOOOOOOH!!!! :laugh:


----------



## ScottMay

I love this thread.


----------



## DaBullz

ScottMay said:


> I love this thread.


Was the bump appropriate?


----------



## bullsville

DaBullz said:


> Was the bump appropriate?


Great question, does anyone believe that the current season is a wash?


----------



## DaBullz

bullsville said:


> Great question, does anyone believe that the current season is a wash?


It's been a wash since before the season. Zero attempt to really go for a title this year, eh?

We were sold on the concept of waiting for cap space in '06 instead of trying for a championship in '05-'06. That's pre-selling the season as a wash in my book.


----------



## ScottMay

DaBullz said:


> Was the bump appropriate?


No, not really.

The problem, though, is that quite a few posters seem to be glossing over what happens this year since we have so many "outs" in the offseason -- two first-round draft picks, at least one of which is shaping up to be a very good one, Cap Space, and so on. 

In my mind, what happens this season is as important as any of the rest of it. Even though the cavalry is on the way, it's important that we continue to develop our core and just win basketball games -- even more important if you subscribe to the theory that it's going to be pretty damn hard for the Bulls to land a legitimate superstar.

So this season isn't a wash. We look like a pretty safe bet to make the playoffs or at worst compete for a spot until the final days of the season. I just hope I don't ever have to create a "The 2006 offseason is a wash" thread, because Paxson has put all his chips on it.

Boy, I sure was right about 2002-2003 being a wash, though.


----------



## ScottMay

And I also have to point out that in retrospect, I feel like a pathetic chump for having done things like go on road trips to Boston, Philadelphia, and DC to watch such a horrendous train wreck of a basketball team. What was I thinking?

Reason #4,343,023 I'm glad I have a kid.


----------



## Ron Cey

ScottMay said:


> No, not really.
> 
> The problem, though, is that quite a few posters seem to be glossing over what happens this year since we have so many "outs" in the offseason -- two first-round draft picks, at least one of which is shaping up to be a very good one, Cap Space, and so on.
> 
> In my mind, what happens this season is as important as any of the rest of it. Even though the cavalry is on the way, it's important that we continue to develop our core and just win basketball games -- even more important if you subscribe to the theory that it's going to be pretty damn hard for the Bulls to land a legitimate superstar.
> 
> So this season isn't a wash. We look like a pretty safe bet to make the playoffs or at worst compete for a spot until the final days of the season. I just hope I don't ever have to create a "The 2006 offseason is a wash" thread, because Paxson has put all his chips on it.
> 
> Boy, I sure was right about 2002-2003 being a wash, though.


Good post in every respect.


----------



## Rhyder

DaBullz said:


> It's been a wash since before the season. Zero attempt to really go for a title this year, eh?
> 
> We were sold on the concept of waiting for cap space in '06 instead of trying for a championship in '05-'06. That's pre-selling the season as a wash in my book.


S&T Chandler & Curry for Duncan
Sign Donyell with the MLE
Trade Gordon and our #1 for Rip
Send Vinnie and Gwido to Duhon's house to "convince" him to sign a 1-year LLE deal

Duncan/Allen
Yell/Harringon
Deng/Nocioni
Hamilton/Pike/Basden
Hinrich/Duhon/Pargo


----------



## bullsville

DaBullz said:


> It's been a wash since before the season. Zero attempt to really go for a title this year, eh?
> 
> We were sold on the concept of waiting for cap space in '06 instead of trying for a championship in '05-'06. That's pre-selling the season as a wash in my book.


If that's the case, then each and every season since the end of the 1997-98 season has been a wash before the season ever started as well, because we haven't been going for a title in any year.


----------



## DaBullz

bullsville said:


> If that's the case, then each and every season since the end of the 1997-98 season has been a wash before the season ever started as well, because we haven't been going for a title in any year.


OK.


----------



## Ron Cey

DaBullz said:


> It's been a wash since before the season. Zero attempt to really go for a title this year, eh?
> 
> We were sold on the concept of waiting for cap space in '06 instead of trying for a championship in '05-'06. That's pre-selling the season as a wash in my book.


Not every team is realistically going for a championship each year. In fact, most aren't. Most are playing to establish a foundation to become one of those few. That doesn't make the season meaningless, as ScottMay's post so excellently describes. 

There are lots of things to play for as a player, and to look for as a fan, regardless of whether playing in the finals is a realistic expectation or not for that particular season. 

I don't know what "attempts" could have been made to transform this season into one in which the Bulls legitimately contend for a title. But in any event, that wasn't my expectation as a fan. The time is coming when that will be my expectation, but it hasn't arrived yet.


----------



## bullsville

I disagree that Pax has put all of his chips into next summer's offseason.

Let's say Paxson decides not to use any of his cap space next summer, and instead decides to see where the team is headed adding only the Knicks' very high lottery pick and our own mid-first rounder.

And let's say Hinrich signs a 6 year, $53 million extension, which is right around Parker/Ginobli type money.

Our cap sitation in the summer of 2007 would be:

Chandler $10 mil
Hinrich $7 mil
Gordon $4.9 mil
Deng $3.3 mil
Duhon $3.25 mil
2006 Knicks $4 mil
2006 Bulls $1.55 mil
--------------
Total $34 million

Even if the Knicks are horrible again next season and after the swap we pick #5, that would add about $3 million for a total of $37 million. Plus 3 minimum-salary charges to get us up to 11 players, so ~$38-39 million in total salary.

We would still have all of our young core together, plus the 3 first-round picks, plus enough cap space to sign a max free agent.


----------



## Ron Cey

bullsville said:


> I disagree that Pax has put all of his chips into next summer's offseason.
> 
> Let's say Paxson decides not to use any of his cap space next summer, and instead decides to see where the team is headed adding only the Knicks' very high lottery pick and our own mid-first rounder.
> 
> And let's say Hinrich signs a 6 year, $53 million extension, which is right around Parker/Ginobli type money.
> 
> Our cap sitation in the summer of 2007 would be:
> 
> Chandler $10 mil
> Hinrich $7 mil
> Gordon $4.9 mil
> Deng $3.3 mil
> Duhon $3.25 mil
> 2006 Knicks $4 mil
> 2006 Bulls $1.55 mil
> --------------
> Total $34 million
> 
> Even if the Knicks are horrible again next season and after the swap we pick #5, that would add about $3 million for a total of $37 million. Plus 3 minimum-salary charges to get us up to 11 players, so ~$38-39 million in total salary.
> 
> We would still have all of our young core together, plus the 3 first-round picks, plus enough cap space to sign a max free agent.


Though I doubt very much that this is the path that will be taken, I'm encouraged by that math as an option.

Edit: I do think Paxson has put the vast majority of his chips into this next offseason. But that can mean different things to different folks. To me, it doesn't *necessarily* mean that who he signs/drafts become the saviours of the franchise that take us all the way. For example, I could see him signing some free agents and keeping the draft picks, only to consolidate them a year later. At some point some of these assets are going to be merged. I have no doubt about that.

It continues to be asset accumulation in one form or another. The manner in which those assets all shake out may not be determined for a couple more years down the line. Such is the nature of rebuilding without a "superstar" in place. The key is that the team keeps improving as affirmative moves are made.


----------



## ScottMay

bullsville said:


> I disagree that Pax has put all of his chips into next summer's offseason.
> 
> Let's say Paxson decides not to use any of his cap space next summer, and instead decides to see where the team is headed adding only the Knicks' very high lottery pick and our own mid-first rounder.
> 
> And let's say Hinrich signs a 6 year, $53 million extension, which is right around Parker/Ginobli type money.
> 
> Our cap sitation in the summer of 2007 would be:
> 
> Chandler $10 mil
> Hinrich $7 mil
> Gordon $4.9 mil
> Deng $3.3 mil
> Duhon $3.25 mil
> 2006 Knicks $4 mil
> 2006 Bulls $1.55 mil
> --------------
> Total $34 million
> 
> Even if the Knicks are horrible again next season and after the swap we pick #5, that would add about $3 million for a total of $37 million. Plus 3 minimum-salary charges to get us up to 11 players, so ~$38-39 million in total salary.
> 
> We would still have all of our young core together, plus the 3 first-round picks, plus enough cap space to sign a max free agent.


Not spending any Cap Space at all in 2006 would be flat-out unacceptable not just to me, but to the Bulls' players and Scott Skiles, I'd wager.

This year's regression is acceptable because an unforeseen turn of events caused us to lose one of our best players plus a solid, if badly aging, defensive big, and their replacements haven't been as effective (btw, it's weird how the Michael Sweetney thread doesn't get updated when he's not playing well). 

But there's no excuse for the team to regress further or just spin its wheels. The draft picks will be a nice addition, but those are the ultimate unknown quantity. It's not enough. Sitting on a pile of money as the team has some fairly dramatic immediate needs would be bad for our record and bad for morale.


----------



## bullsville

ScottMay said:


> *Not spending any Cap Space at all in 2006 would be flat-out unacceptable not just to me, but to the Bulls' players and Scott Skiles, I'd wager.*
> 
> This year's regression is acceptable because an unforeseen turn of events caused us to lose one of our best players plus a solid, if badly aging, defensive big, and their replacements haven't been as effective (btw, it's weird how the Michael Sweetney thread doesn't get updated when he's not playing well).
> 
> But there's no excuse for the team to regress further or just spin its wheels. The draft picks will be a nice addition, but those are the ultimate unknown quantity. It's not enough. *Sitting on a pile of money as the team has some fairly dramatic immediate needs would be bad for our record and bad for morale*.


I agree 100% with that sentiment, I would be peed off as well if we have a payroll of $35 million next season.

But IMHO if Pax decides that Przybilla or Harrington (for example) aren't worth investing in long-term, and he sees that he can't trade C Space for any good players, he would "overpay" a veteran or two for one year to come in and help the team next season.

For example, I could see him giving AD a 1-year, $7 million deal as sort of a "repayment" for sending him to NBA Hell for a season. Or (probably more realistically) I could see him taking on a jib-full veteran with one year left on his deal (ex. Brian Grant) and getting another 1st-round pick in 2007 (a non-lottery pick to replace the one we will be swapping with the Knicks) to help a team clear payroll.


----------



## DaBullz

Here's a sense of whether the season is a wash or not.

Last season, about this time, I bet $10 on the Bulls to win the championship. Living in Vegas has that kind of advantage (can bet), and the odds were 150:1. I don't gamble, and normally a bet like that would be considered a homer bet... But I had a sense that there actually was a chance.

This season, I wouldn't make the bet.

Last season, we were clearly a team on the way to a much better record than expected.

This season, we're at a point we've lost 6 of our last 7 at home, and are 5-7 for the month. A huge change in "trajectory" for the team.

Skiles has gone from being a brilliant coach getting more out of his players than should be expected and eeking out wins to... well, we aren't getting the wins as much anymore.

Bulls have just two win streaks all season, 2 games and 4 games.

The good news is Songaila is having good games. The bad news is he's getting PT at all. He's getting the PT that Nocioni should be getting (as backup SF/PF).

Our starting frontcourt is Nocioni, Deng, and Sweetney. Small.


----------



## UMfan83

The Bulls are playing their asses off. There is no no NO reason why they should be outrebounding almost any team in the NBA, and yet they do that 40-50% of the time. They are so undersized, its a wonder they are even floating near .500. Even most of the games they lost, they've almost won. 

My prediction: After awhile the failed efforts lead to an apathetic feeling and this team goes WAAAAY south before something is done to correct it. Idealy, this team is 2 players away from being a force in the playoffs. But unfortuantely due to the coach, those two players have to subscribe to the Skiles theory (oh and they have to be tall too, a tall SG and a low post player over 7 feet with at least ONE offensive move would be idea). It's gonna be tough, but yes I am holding out on the hopes that the Knicks help us out big time. Don't trade that pick just yet!


----------



## rlucas4257

ScottMay said:


> Not spending any Cap Space at all in 2006 would be flat-out unacceptable not just to me, but to the Bulls' players and Scott Skiles, I'd wager.
> 
> This year's regression is acceptable because an unforeseen turn of events caused us to lose one of our best players plus a solid, if badly aging, defensive big, and their replacements haven't been as effective (btw, it's weird how the Michael Sweetney thread doesn't get updated when he's not playing well).
> 
> But there's no excuse for the team to regress further or just spin its wheels. The draft picks will be a nice addition, but those are the ultimate unknown quantity. It's not enough. Sitting on a pile of money as the team has some fairly dramatic immediate needs would be bad for our record and bad for morale.


I think its mismanagement. I wish Pax wouldnt have put his chips into next year. The FA market is weak and there is hardly anyone in it who will make much of a difference on this club. 2007 would be much better. Not only are there established stars but upcoming special situations where guys could get turned loose due to lux tax issues. Second, next years draft is just horrible. And I am the biggest Bull on drafts. I love them. And I am in optimist in terms of them. But this one is BAD. If the Bulls dont stumble into Aldridge then its a waste of time. I think Gay is going to be good but we are set at that spot, the only spot we are set at actually. Morrison is hit/miss. Playing in a halfcourt game like yesterday would render him useless. Playing for a passing team like Sacramento and he could succeed. But he is not better then Noc or Deng. Reddick is someone I like but not in the lottery. Pax should have earmarked 2007 with his FA money and the pick. The 2007 draft is looking like a cant miss bigs bonanza. But who knows, by then, he might have resigned all of his guys to max contracts and blown it.


----------



## GB

ScottMay said:


> So this season isn't a wash. We look like a pretty safe bet to make the playoffs or at worst compete for a spot until the final days of the season. I just hope I don't ever have to create a "The 2006 offseason is a wash" thread, because Paxson has put all his chips on it.


Great call.

:greatjob:


----------



## fleetwood macbull

repent all ye sinners. Join the church of PaxaSkilesology. Its not too late


----------



## truebluefan

Hal...a...lou...yah.....


----------



## anorexorcist

Ouch. OUCH.


----------



## dsouljah9

> repent all ye sinners. Join the church of PaxaSkilesology. Its not too late


I'm a believer!!!!!

There is a chance that I might backslide though... :biggrin:


----------



## kukoc4ever

Thank goodness the east was not as improved as people thought it would be.


----------



## truebluefan

kukoc4ever said:


> Thank goodness the east was not as improved as people thought it would be.


Boy isnt that the damn truth!


----------



## TripleDouble

kukoc4ever said:


> Thank goodness the east was not as improved as people thought it would be.


The Eastern Conference's conference record: 376-374

The Western Conference's conference record: 374-374

So much for the big, bad Western Conference.


----------



## kukoc4ever

TripleDouble said:


> The Eastern Conference's conference record: 376-374
> 
> The Western Conference's conference record: 374-374
> 
> So much for the big, bad Western Conference.


LOL, this is funny. Good one.


----------



## GB

kukoc4ever said:


> Thank goodness the east was not as improved as people thought it would be.



Thank goodness Skiles was a better coach than people thought he would be.


----------



## kukoc4ever

GB said:


> Thank goodness Skiles was a better coach than people thought he would be.


Yeah... he was the MVP of the team last year and I'd have to say he's the main reason we're 2 games under .500 this year.


----------



## TripleDouble

kukoc4ever said:


> LOL, this is funny. Good one.


Can't argue with the numbers, eh?


----------



## remlover

back-to-back playoff appearances. Not bad. If everythign falls right for us we can get the 5th seed. Not bad for a team that has taken a ton of heat from certain posters this season.


----------



## GB

kukoc4ever said:


> Yeah... he was the MVP of the team last year and I'd have to say he's the main reason we're only 2 games under .500 this year.


Fixed.


----------



## kukoc4ever

TripleDouble said:


> Can't argue with the numbers, eh?


How can I argue with a joke?

Or do you really think that the West is a stronger conference than the East?


----------



## truebluefan

as for the numbers of the eastern and western conferences, I think we are 209-287 against the west. I did this quickly and did not recheck it. So it may not be accurate.


----------



## kukoc4ever

GB said:


> Fixed.


It will be fixed once we're over 47 wins and have home court advantage where we should be.

Nothing Skiles can do about the players he has available to him though... except perhaps be more agreeable... but his attitude and belief in his values (and his basketball brain) are what makes him good... so its kind of a catch 22.


----------



## TripleDouble

kukoc4ever said:


> How can I argue with a joke?
> 
> Or do you really think that the West is a stronger conference than the East?


I say their record against each other is basically the same. How do you propose we measure the strength of each conference?


----------



## truebluefan

yes the east is weak, yes we are 2 games under .500 but we can add, yes we have won 8 out of the last 9. I was agreeing, the east is weak but the bulls played decent ball at the right time.


----------



## GB

kukoc4ever said:


> It will be fixed once we're over 47 wins and have home court advantage where we should be.
> 
> Nothing Skiles can do about the players he has available to him though... except perhaps be more agreeable... but his attitude and belief in his values (and his basketball brain) are what makes him good... so its kind of a catch 22.



Your standards are too high for a team that had to move a key cog at the last minute in the pre/off season.

The Bulls are above where they were predicted to be, and should be in a position to better it by 10 games or so next season.


----------



## remlover

K4E: What will your opinion be if the Bulls advance to the 2nd round?

I'm curious if you can spin that accomplishment in a negative way as well?


----------



## TripleDouble

truebluefan said:


> as for the numbers of the eastern and western conferences, I think we are 209-287 against the west. I did this quickly and did not recheck it. So it may not be accurate.


Who's we?


----------



## kukoc4ever

TripleDouble said:


> I say their record against each other is basically the same. How do you propose we measure the strength of each conference?



Do you think the East is a better conference than the West?


----------



## kukoc4ever

GB said:


> The Bulls are above where they were predicted to be, and should be in a position to better it by 10 games or so next season.


I hope you are right.

Paxson has the picks, Cap Space and tradable young assets to make this happen.


----------



## GB

remlover said:


> K4E: What will your opinion be if the Bulls advance to the 2nd round?
> 
> I'm curious if you can spin that accomplishment in a negative way as well?


If the Bulls haven't reacquired Krause, Rose, Curry and Crawford...sure.


----------



## GB

kukoc4ever said:


> I hope you are right.
> 
> Paxson has the picks, Cap Space and tradable young assets to make this happen.


Then why are you so hard on the man?


----------



## truebluefan

TripleDouble said:


> Who's we?


I took your number of 374 wins...subtracted total wins from the east and came up with 209. I took your total conference losses of the east and subtracted it from the total losses of the teams of the east and came up with the second number. 

209 wins vs the west. The west has a few more wins against us. But again, I did this quickly and did it off of the top of my head. It is not accurate.


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## kukoc4ever

remlover said:


> K4E: What will your opinion be if the Bulls advance to the 2nd round?
> 
> I'm curious if you can spin that accomplishment in a negative way as well?


I will be surprised, although we have a chance against the Nets I think.

Spin? Negative? We are in the playoffs right now with a losing record. Take that for whatever you feel it is worth... it is what it is.

Heck of a strong, gutty finish for the Bulls... the team has great jib... no doubt about it.


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## giusd

I dont think it matters if the bulls make the second round or not. This team lacked leadership and direction for most of the year and the last six weeks they have really grown up. This team built chemistry and i think will build on this year for next year with a couple of solid additions say a big man in the draft, a big man in FA, and a SG with our 2nd first rounder.

It was hard watching the bulls this year but the last month has been great and i am really looking foward to next year.

david


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## TripleDouble

kukoc4ever said:


> Do you think the East is a better conference than the West?


Who cares what you or I think? Their record against each other determines who is better (or in this case that they are equal). 

Or do you suppose that your subjective judgement is more likely to be truthful than quantifiable evidence?


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## kukoc4ever

TripleDouble said:


> Who cares what you or I think? Their record against each other determines who is better (or in this case that they are equal).
> 
> Or do you suppose that your subjective judgement is more likely to be truthful than quantifiable evidence?


Do you think the East is a better conference than the West?


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## GB

kukoc4ever said:


> Do you think the East is a better conference than the West?


I think our jib would have carried the day in either conference.


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## kukoc4ever

GB said:


> Then why are you so hard on the man?


We'll see if he makes it happen.

IMO, the realization of the Twin Towers dream, along with the jib improvement that Paxson brought about, resulted in a 47 win season and home court in the playoffs.... I want to see Paxson at least match what he decided to blow up.

Chicago Grizzles. The playoffs are fun though. Spring hopes eternal.


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## TripleDouble

truebluefan said:


> I took your number of 374 wins...subtracted total wins from the east and came up with 209. I took your total conference losses of the east and subtracted it from the total losses of the teams of the east and came up with the second number.
> 
> 209 wins vs the west. The west has a few more wins against us. But again, I did this quickly and did it off of the top of my head. It is not accurate.


Woah. I think you may be right. My deductive reasoning powers have deserted me. :dead: :dead: 

To K4ever: You were right. The Western conference is better. There needs to be a tail between the legs icon.


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## kukoc4ever

GB said:


> I think our jib would have carried the day in either conference.


Does one have to win more games than they lose to "carry the day?" 

I hope the jib gets us to the 2nd round. The real season (everybody trying hard) starts next week.


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## MikeDC

How about you all give it rest and enjoy things instead of using what should be a happy occasion as an effort to antagonize each other.


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## Jesus Shuttlesworth

Somebody had to bring this up!

It may not be a wash yet, but we're heading there...

Something's going on between Skiles and the players, we're too talented to be in this position. They look lethargic, uninterested and the effort on D is just pathetic game after game (except against the Lakers). 

We have to win at least 4 of the next 5 games, and bury this thread forever...


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## ChiBron

The Eastern Conference is too freaking pathetic for us to NOT eventually return to respectability once the schedule eases up a bit.

But within 10 games this team has proved something I had believed from the very beginning of all the offseason moves made by Paxson - The Chicago Bulls aren't anywhere close to being an elite team in this league. Or even a good team for that matter. Paxson did nothing to address the team's weaknesses.


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## Babble-On

Somebody had to do it. Folks will defend the Bulls' play, insist they'll be OK, and I guess to some extent, they'll be right. The Bulls at this point look, at best, to be an OK team. Can beat the bad teams(most of the time), can sometimes beat the other OK and even some of the good teams, especially if they have someone out. But not a real threat to do anything that matters. 

I don't think I'm OK with that.


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## DaBullz

Dang. ScottMay is sorely missed.


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## kulaz3000

Babble-On said:


> Somebody had to do it. Folks will defend the Bulls' play, insist they'll be OK, and I guess to some extent, they'll be right. The Bulls at this point look, at best, to be an OK team. Can beat the bad teams(most of the time), can sometimes beat the other OK and even some of the good teams, especially if they have someone out. But not a real threat to do anything that matters.
> 
> I don't think I'm OK with that.


Its nice to have fans that will stick with the team through thick and thin.


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## Babble-On

kulaz3000 said:


> Its nice to have fans that will stick with the team through thick and thin.


The fact that I'm criticizing the team desn't mean I'm not sticking with them. I watched the entire game the night they scored 49 points against Miami in 99'. I doubt I'll ever stop following the Bulls and being a fan of them. I am, however, very disappointed with them and from what I've seen of them, they don't have the look of a truly good teamas currently constructed, which is disappointing, since the chance to get to that level was right for the taking.


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## ChiBron

SPMJ said:


> The Eastern Conference is too freaking pathetic for us to NOT eventually return to respectability once the schedule eases up a bit.
> 
> But within 10 games this team has proved something I had believed from the very beginning of all the offseason moves made by Paxson - The Chicago Bulls aren't anywhere close to being an elite team in this league. Or even a good team for that matter. Paxson did nothing to address the team's weaknesses.


This is what I said on the 24th of Novemeber(and all offseason)...and I couldn't have been more right. Paxson did NOTHING to address the team's weaknesses(size and low post scoring) and that's why the Bulls are no better than last season.


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## kulaz3000

Babble-On said:


> The fact that I'm criticizing the team desn't mean I'm not sticking with them. I watched the entire game the night they scored 49 points against Miami in 99'. I doubt I'll ever stop following the Bulls and being a fan of them. I am, however, very disappointed with them and from what I've seen of them, they don't have the look of a truly good teamas currently constructed, which is disappointing, since the chance to get to that level was right for the taking.


Well if your looking for some positives, by the Nets winning it gives us a better chance of getting a lottery pick from the Knicks. Because Nets are playing well and will probably take the atlantic title, and there is not chance that NY gets into the play-offs on a .500 record. 

So there you go, a positive for you to stew about.


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## kulaz3000

SPMJ said:


> This is what I said on the 24th of Novemeber(and all offseason)...and I couldn't have been more right. Paxson did NOTHING to address the team's weaknesses(size and low post scoring) and that's why the Bulls are no better than last season.


We definitly are a team of misfits. That i can agree with.. there are so many players that don't fit well with our team and each other.


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## BULLHITTER

we're dooooooooomed

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## TomBoerwinkle#1

As *Wynn!* would say:

The Bull will never win another game.


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## Chops

Is the season still a wash if we are 2nd round and out again? This coming off season has potential to be a disaster.


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## The 6ft Hurdle

Hmm, what happened to such luminaries as Vincent Vega and Kismet?


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## theanimal23

*It's Time.


Get Kobe.*


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## The 6ft Hurdle

I don't like how if Ben Gordon bricks a clutch shot, or makes a bad play there is 99% chance he's not even going to touch the ball the next possession, until the game gets really out of hand. 

This was a guy who got famous based on his 4th quarters in his rookie season. I wonder if this an ability that has atrophied under Skiles, similar to the atrophied now suddenly blossomed offensive abilities of Tyson Chandler.


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