# Chad Ford: Al Jefferson a "summer league dud"



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

> *Summer Duds*
> 
> Al Jefferson, PF, Celtics
> _Stats:_ 7.5 ppg, 6 rpg in the Vegas Summer League
> ...


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## mmmdk (Jul 16, 2002)

Hmm...I hear you Chad Ford. The reports on Al Jefferson's bad play during summer league is not good news. My view on Al Jefferson is purely from a fantasy keeper league's point of view which dose reflect his future in the NBA as well; Al Jefferson is a HUGE project. He will come around but I don't think he's a future superstar/Allstar. He's clueless on defense but I think he'll be a scorer yet no defense. A poor mans Zach Randolph and that's no superstar in my book. To Al's defense, he did play with that, as of yet, non-team player Gerald Green during summer league. Green might become a superstar someday or a Ricky Davis for that matter.

Peace, Mike


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

Those numbers do suck. But yet again it is SUMMER LEAGUE


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Gerald Green said:


> Those numbers do suck. But yet again it is SUMMER LEAGUE




which is why they shouldnt suck


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> which is why they shouldnt suck


Saying that Al Jeff's ****ty numbers in summer league matter as much as Kedrick Browns strangle hold on summer league


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## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

Gerald Green said:


> Saying that Al Jeff's ****ty numbers in summer league matter as much as Kedrick Browns strangle hold on summer league



good call on that


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Gerald Green said:


> Saying that Al Jeff's ****ty numbers in summer league matter as much as Kedrick Browns strangle hold on summer league



or you could say that if a scrub like kedrick can dominate the summer league then al should be the equivalent of shaq against those wannabe nba players


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> or you could say that if a scrub like kedrick can dominate the summer league then al should be the equivalent of shaq against those wannabe nba players


Well we all know how good Jefferson is. And besides I don't think he really had that much to prove in summer league


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## Al Jefferson (Nov 20, 2003)

Gerald Green said:


> Well we all know how good Jefferson is. And besides I don't think he really had that much to prove in summer league


Exactly ..

AJ


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> And besides I don't think he really had that much to prove in summer league


Excuses, excuses. Who cares what he had to prove? Does that mean he can't go out and give 100%? And if that is Jefferson giving 100%, I'm scared, because if he can barely notch 7/6 in summer league giving it his all, that's bad news. Did Tony Allen have any more to prove than Jefferson? No, but he came out and played well anyways.

It's just summer league. Al should have lit it up, no excuses. If Kedrick freaking Brown could do it, Jefferson should be able to. No need to hit the panic button...Al just didn't play all that well. When he's playing poorly during the season, then we can start to worry a little bit.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

> Did Tony Allen have any more to prove than Jefferson? No, but he came out and played well anyways.


The answer to that is yes!


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> Excuses, excuses. Who cares what he had to prove? Does that mean he can't go out and give 100%? And if that is Jefferson giving 100%, I'm scared, because if he can barely notch 7/6 in summer league giving it his all, that's bad news. Did Tony Allen have any more to prove than Jefferson? No, but he came out and played well anyways.
> 
> It's just summer league. Al should have lit it up, no excuses. If Kedrick freaking Brown could do it, Jefferson should be able to. No need to hit the panic button...Al just didn't play all that well. When he's playing poorly during the season, then we can start to worry a little bit.



i agree totally pdub


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> The answer to that is yes!


Why? Tony showed flashes of great play last year, just like Jefferson did. Allen had 6/3 in 16 minutes, Jefferson had 7/4 in about 15. Not that huge of a gap. Tony was obviously more NBA-ready (was a starter for a lot of the year) than Al. What did Tony have to prove in summer league this year? That he can shoot? That he can play smarter D? Well, Al has to prove that he can play D at all. That he can pass out of a double team.

If Jefferson were a 6'4" shooting guard averaging 7/4 in 15 minutes, you guys wouldn't be on his jock so much, because Tony Allen _was_ more or less that 6'4" shooting guard that put up those #'s. But it happens that he's a power forward on a franchise starving for a big man, so stamp him with the franchise label and excuse his poor play because he "has nothing to prove". Please. Al Jefferson has to prove that he can be a legit NBA big man before anything else.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

The answer to that is because the Celtics drafted Gerald Green a SG who plays the same position as Allen. Allen needed to improve his shot or he knew Green would take away his job soon enough. So Allen had to step up in summer league. Besides Al Jeff only came out of High School Allen is 24 he should prove himself as a shooter being that he is a SG


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Gerald Green said:


> The answer to that is because the Celtics drafted Gerald Green a SG who plays the same position as Allen. Allen needed to improve his shot or he knew Green would take away his job soon enough. So Allen had to step up in summer league.



i dont believe that in the last 4 weeks since the celts drafted gerald allen all of a sudden went "crap i need to improve my game or im gone"....i think hes been working on his game since the end of the season and allens superior performance in the summer league has little to do with the arrival of green


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> The answer to that is because the Celtics drafted Gerald Green a SG who plays the same position as Allen.


They didn't go into the draft thinking they needed a shooting guard. Ricky's better than Green may ever be. He just happened to fall, probably for a reason, and we scooped him up.



> Allen needed to improve his shot or he knew Green would take away his job soon enough.


Allen is so much more NBA-ready than Green it's not even funny. I can't see Green taking Allen's spot for another couple of years. Plus, it's not as if TA only worked on his shot because he was worried about Green. Players like to get better, you know, and that was the most lacking part of Allen's game.



> So Allen had to step up in summer league.


Not really. Even if Allen had played as mediocre as Jefferson, it's not like Green would have taken his spot.



> Besides Al Jeff only came out of High School Allen is 24


And Tony Allen has proven himself at college, as Jefferson elected not to do, and he has proven himself just as much at the NBA level as Jefferson. Weak.



> he should prove himself as a shooter being that he is a SG


"Proving yourself" in summer league means jack. Remember Kedrick Brown?


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> i dont believe that in the last 4 weeks since the celts drafted gerald allen all of a sudden went "crap i need to improve my game or im gone"....i think hes been working on his game since the end of the season and allens superior performance in the summer league has little to do with the arrival of green


I don't know about the I'm gone part, but he deffineatly will have his playing time redouced if he can't learn to shoot


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> but he deffineatly will have his playing time redouced if he can't learn to shoot


So will every other NBA SG that can't shoot. It has little or nothing to do with Green, especially since at present Allen is lightyears ahead of him in terms of NBA readiness.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Anyone think for a second that perhaps the opposition was gunning for Al Jefferson because he has such a high reputation?


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Anyone think for a second that perhaps the opposition was gunning for Al Jefferson because he has such a high reputation?


Anyone think that, even if this was the case, it'll be just as hard to put up points in the NBA? And if you're looking for 7 and 6 from your starting PF with little defense, then we have an entirely different set of expectations from Al this year.

Feeblest excuse thus far.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

P-Dub34 said:


> Anyone think that, even if this was the case, it'll be just as hard to put up points in the NBA? And if you're looking for 7 and 6 from your starting PF with little defense, then we have an entirely different set of expectations from Al this year.
> 
> Feeblest excuse thus far.


 Or he could have just been passing out of double teams, instead of forcing offense. The rebounding numbers are a bit low, but that's not a big deal because, from what I've read, they weren't kept that accurately. Also, since they have some idea what they have with Jefferson, they could have been looking at Gomes, Perk, and Coppenrath in the paint and having Jefferson take some Blount jumpers.


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## Flava_D (Apr 22, 2005)

Summer leagues are for 2's and 3's honestly. Big guys tend to do well on the boards and not much else, because the action tends to be more one on one than anything else (guys are trying to make themselves look good) Big guys just don't handle the ball as much in general - I wouldn't worry bout Big Al at all from this summer showing


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Or he could have just been passing out of double teams, instead of forcing offense.


That would be refreshing, because the kid crapped his pants pretty much every time it happened last year. That's not a slam on him, he's right out of high school and has a lot to learn, it was his first year in the NBA etc., but that'd be nice to see. But if he's not forcing shots why is a PF shooting 44%?



> The rebounding numbers are a bit low, but that's not a big deal because, from what I've read, they weren't kept that accurately.


That could be right, or maybe he just didn't board all that well.



> Also, since they have some idea what they have with Jefferson, they could have been looking at Gomes, Perk, and Coppenrath in the paint


This far and away would be the best excuse if Jefferson didn't get the 3rd most minutes on the team (behind Allen and Perkins, who sucked as well).



> and having Jefferson take some Blount jumpers.


Maybe. I didn't see the game.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

The idea with Gomes, Perk, and Coppenrath in the paint was that Jefferson wouldn't be on the blocks, even when he was on the floor. Thus the Blountian jumpers.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

I wouldn't worry too much, remember Chris Bosh had a pretty dissapointing summer league in his own right and it didn't slow him down much during the season.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

It also should be noted that we all pooped in our pants last season when Al had a good summer league. Now we're ****ting all over him because he didn't walk on water this summer.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

agoo101284 said:


> It also should be noted that we all pooped in our pants last season



speak for urself agoo...thats kinda nasty


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> So will every other NBA SG that can't shoot. It has little or nothing to do with Green, especially since at present Allen is lightyears ahead of him in terms of NBA readiness.


Quoting someone else on this board Allen started taking 100 3's a day when Green was drafted


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Quoting someone else on this board Allen started taking 100 3's a day when Green was drafted


Yeah. Maybe he stepped it up from 99 a day when Green got drafted.


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## banner17 (Jun 28, 2003)

Let us not forget that the summer league was what 7 games??

Also, summer League is taylor made for poing guards and wing man to shine. Someone mentioned Kedrick playing so well - that's summer league basketball - lots of iso's designed for perimeter players and very few set plays. 

I didn't watch any of the games and only saw a few highlights. For a big man to dominate offensively, he needs someone to get him the ball in position. I'm guessing there were many situations where Al had position and Allen, Gomes, Green, Reed etc, didn't feed him the ball because they were too concerned with demonstrating their own ability at driving to the rack. 

How often do you hear about big men shining in the summer league? 

and to top it all off? We're talking Chad Ford's opinion!!! That's akin to placing stock in Jim Grey's opinion on football players.


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## SamIam (Jun 1, 2004)

Big Al is still they guy that excited us all season long so that is consolation for now. No matter how you slice it though.... there was no excitement generated by Al in the summer league this year.

One play in the playoffs last year worried me and it has been brought up by others before. Foster is under the net and Al gets an o-rebound 2 ft from the hoop and what should be an automatic nasty dunk for 2. Instead he gets the ball back in his face ... by none other than Foster.

The fact that Maxiel did the same thing to Jeff in summer league worries me. I still think Al is a huge asset but I am not ready to annoint him successor to Paul Pierce just yet. He still has a lot to prove.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Where the heck did this notion come from that summer league is like a freaking All Star game or a pick up game. Summer league _should_ be similar to real game situations. I doubt your coaches are going through the expense of sending their young talent to organized pick up games. That is why they usually send an assistant coach there and why the GM and head coach usually make a visit or two to the games. I hope the Celtics have Jefferson doing what they expect him to do in the regular season or they are wasting his time.

Now there is another reason for summer league that can explain his low numbers. Summer league is used as a time to isolate weaknesses and work on them: post defense, ball handling, mid range shooting, PG skills, dribble drive moves, etc. When coaches use summer leagues for this purpose some players look worse because they spend the entire time trying to improve a skill they are not good at doing but need to feel it in game situations.

So that adds up to....summer league stats mean nothing unless put in context.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

As an outsider I would be wary if not concerened about Jefferson's numbers. I certainly don't think it means he will be a bad player, but it would be nice to see someone dominate a league that has few NBA caliber players in it. Dominating that league doesn't mean you'll be a star as Qyntel Woods showed the Blazers, but players like Zach Randolph tore the summer league up when he played. Anywho I've babbled enough.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> I certainly don't think it means he will be a bad player, but it would be nice to see someone dominate a league that has few NBA caliber players in it.


Agreed.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> Yeah. Maybe he stepped it up from 99 a day when Green got drafted.


Allen can't shoot 3's he never even had it in his game. I am positive he does not even shoot 10 3's a day. He just tries out new dunks so he can hopefully be in the Dunk Contest. And how would you figure he already shoots 99 3's? I think if he shot that many then he should at least shoot more than 31 all year


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Allen can't shoot 3's he never even had it in his game.


That's correct. Allen isn't a three point shooter. But what makes you think that he doesn't shoot any in practice? Maybe he's trying to add that to his game. It'd be nice for an NBA SG to have three point range. By your logic, he doesn't practice threes because he currently isn't good at them. So you're saying that everybody should only work on their strengths during the offseason, and forget about their weaknesses? Get outta here.



> I am positive he does not even shoot 10 3's a day.


Until you have hard facts and something more reliable than *your opinion*, please don't say you are "positive" of anything. If you get me some proof Allen totally blows off his long range shooting in lieu of maybe, you know, GETTING BETTER, then I'll shut up.



> He just tries out new dunks so he can hopefully be in the Dunk Contest.


TA already said he's an in-game dunker and will only participate in the Dunk Contest if he's paid. Again, is this just something you conjured up in your dome, or do you have something substantial to back it up with?



> And how would you figure he already shoots 99 3's?


It was a facetious remark, I thought you'd "get it".



> I think if he shot that many then he should at least shoot more than 31 all year


This doesn't make sense. Allen would be working on his long range game this offseason because he didn't have one last year. The way this statement reads is like, "If Allen's working on his threes now, he should've shot more last year". It's ridiculous.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

> correct. Allen isn't a three point shooter


He is a SHOOTING GUARD that is kinda what he is supposed to do along with shot J's which he does not.



> TA already said he's an in-game dunker and will only participate in the Dunk Contest if he's paid. Again, is this just something you conjured up in your dome, or do you have something substantial to back it up with


Regardless all he does is dunk IN GAMES. And does not shoot like SHOOTING GUARDS are meant to.



> This doesn't make sense. Allen would be working on his long range game this offseason because he didn't have one last year. The way this statement reads is like, "If Allen's working on his threes now, he should've shot more last year". It's ridiculous.


Yet again he is the starting SHOOTING GUARD. He needs to do more than just dunk.


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

Allen doesn't shoot because he doesn't have a good shot. However, it did improve over the course of last season, and I expect it to continue to improve.

As for AJ's summer league, who cares? Let me know when he is a regular season dud.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> He is a shooting guard thatis kinda what he is supposed to do along with shot J's which he does not.


Thanks, tips. Which is EXACTLY why I said that he needs to be practicing his long range game. Did you selectively ignore that part or what?



> Regardless all he does is dunk IN GAMES. And does not shoot like SHOOTING GUARDS are meant to.


That's because last year, it was the only strong facet of his offensive game. Which is EXACTLY why I said that he needs to be practicing his long range game (for the second time). Did you just ignore that, too?



> Yet again he is the starting SHOOTING GUARD. He needs to do more than just dunk.


And here you just ran out of real points so you decided to randomly quote me and come back with a reply that has nothing to do with what I said.



> Allen doesn't shoot because he doesn't have a good shot. However, it did improve over the course of last season, and I expect it to continue to improve.


DH, I already tried saying something along those lines. You just basically get ignored and told that he isn't practicing his shooting and working on some new dunks for the upcoming year.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

Delontes Herpes said:


> Allen doesn't shoot because he doesn't have a good shot. However, it did improve over the course of last season, and I expect it to continue to improve.
> .


Am I the only one that thinks shooting guards should shoot


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Am I the only one that thinks shooting guards should shoot


Jesus Christ man, will you listen for a ****ing minute? 

TONY ALLEN CURRENTLY DOESN'T HAVE A SHOT, WHICH IS WHY HE IS WORKING ON IT IN THE OFFSEASON. TO GET A SHOT.

[cue family guy]Gerald Green, I don't know how to explain it more clearly than that[/family guy]


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

Gerald Green said:


> Am I the only one that thinks shooting guards should shoot


I think they should score points however they can. Allen scored 6.4/game in 16.4 minutes. That's not bad for a rookie. As his shot improves, he will shoot more and score more to please you.

Also, Dwyane Wade only made 13 threes this year. I'm assuming you would have a problem with him if he played for the C's because he doesn't shoot enough.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

> Thanks, tips. Which is EXACTLY why I said that he needs to be practicing his long range game. Did you selectively ignore that part or what?


I agree, you kind of just agreed with me on that part read back the entire convo.
With the whole 100 3's a day as soon as Green was drafted



> That's because last year, it was the only strong facet of his offensive game. Which is EXACTLY why I said that he needs to be practicing his long range game (for the second time). Did you just ignore that, too?


Yet again SHOOTING GUARDS ARE SHOOTERS I DON'T GET WHY YOU ARE TRYING TO DEFEND HIM BECAUSE HE A SHOOTER CAN'T SHOOT? GOOD ONE IGNORING THAT



> DH, I already tried saying something along those lines. You just basically get ignored and told that he isn't practicing his shooting and working on some new dunks for the upcoming year.


Tony Allen had exactly 40 dunks last year (regualar season). He shot 47.5% over the course of the year with those dunks. You take all those dunks away he shot 37% total on all else aside from dunks.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

I am done with this it seems you are ingoring the facts. And are basing your opinion that Allen will be a better shooter next year. Like you said I want raw facts on why he is a better shooter. So I am done with you


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Gerald Green said:


> Yet again SHOOTING GUARDS ARE SHOOTERS I DON'T GET WHY YOU ARE TRYING TO DEFEND HIM BECAUSE HE A SHOOTER CAN'T SHOOT? GOOD ONE IGNORING THAT


Worst sentence ever. I'm defending him because hopefully his shooting will improve.



> Tony Allen had exactly 40 dunks last year (regualar season). He shot 47.5% over the course of the year with those dunks. You take all those dunks away he shot 37% total on all else aside from dunks.


OK. Take away jumpers and Blount probably shoots 30%. You can't just "take away" methods of scoring. Hopefully Allen will develop a J to complement his other facets of his offensive game.



> I am done with this it seems you are ingoring the facts.


[strike]Get outta here, pal. You haven't been giving facts, just your opinion, and I'm not ignoring them, I'm disagreeing with them. If you can't handle a debate, then stop posting here, because you're going to get a lot of them. [/strike]



> And are basing your opinion that Allen will be a better shooter next year. Like you said I want raw facts on why he is a better shooter.


If you practice something a lot, you will get better. That's the nature of things. If Allen works on his J this year, then yes, he will be a better shooter next year. He won't be Reggie Miller, but he will have improved.



> So I am done with you


Why? Because I disagree with you? Because I come with irrefutable facts? Just because you can't "win" the argument, you're gonna stop altogether? [strike]Grow up.[/strike]

This is a public forum. Everyone has a right to be here and post within our site guidelines. Also, no personal attacks please.

- Premier


EDIT: Get outta here wasn't meant literally. It was kind of an Elaine Benyce "GET OUT!". I don't think any of what I said was a personal attack, either.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

I was not going to reply but


> OK. Take away jumpers and Blount probably shoots 30%. You can't just "take away" methods of scoring. Hopefully Allen will develop a J to complement his other facets of his offensive game


We were talking about his shot this entire time. I just want to show you how bad his shot is. And never use Blount in an argument for anyone that just [strike]proves to show idiocricy[/strike]

Do not attack posters.

- Premier


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

You can have fun with this because you don't seem to take anything from other people


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Delontes Herpes said:


> I think they should score points however they can. Allen scored 6.4/game in 16.4 minutes. That's not bad for a rookie. As his shot improves, he will shoot more and score more to please you.


Unfortunately for Tony, near the end of the season teams just started having a defender block his path to the net once a shot went up and his offense vanished. He's heavily reliant on weakside putbacks because he isn't great at creating his own shot, and not a good jumpshooter. That combination worries me in an undersized 2. 



Delontes Herpes said:


> Also, Dwyane Wade only made 13 threes this year. I'm assuming you would have a problem with him if he played for the C's because he doesn't shoot enough.


If Tony Allen had D-Wade's game, I wouldn't. But TA doesn't have Wade's game and doesn't have Wade's hyper-athleticism, he doesn't have the luxury of not being able to bury a jumper. Heck, even Wade doesn't have that luxury, see how effectively the Pistons shut him down once he lost that explosiveness due to injury. If he had a decent jumper, he could have burned the Pistons, but he doesn't. If he wants to keep up with 'Bron he needs to work on it. If Allen wants to hold on to his spot in a _very_ crowded rotation he needs to be able to bury a trey.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Gerald Green said:


> I am done with this it seems you are ingoring the facts. And are basing your opinion that Allen will be a better shooter next year. Like you said I want raw facts on why he is a better shooter. So I am done with you


Were you paying attention to anything P-Dub was saying? Allow me to condense it for you:

Tony Allen doesn't have a good shot right now. During the offseason, he is shooting hundreds and thousands and millions of jumpers so that way he can get a good shot.

You dig?


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

> Also, Dwyane Wade only made 13 threes this year. I'm assuming you would have a problem with him if he played for the C's because he doesn't shoot enough.


Dwyane Wade shoots long jumpers all the time. And shoots great at them. Allen does not even shoot long jumpers


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Gerald Green said:


> Dwyane Wade shoots long jumpers all the time. And shoots great at them. Allen does not even shoot long jumpers


Do you have any evidence? I'm not arguing, I'm just curious (and lazy).


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

Premier said:


> Do you have any evidence? I'm not arguing, I'm just curious (and lazy).


No, because there are no sources I can find that labels his midrange percentage. But go to the Heat forum and ask


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

OK, so you say you weren't going to reply, and then do. Classy.



> We were talking about his shot this entire time. I just want to show you how bad his shot is. And never use Blount in an argument for anyone that just proves to show idiocricy


Guy, I know how bad TA's shot is. That's why he's working on it. God. And now, even though I haven't taken any shots at you thus far except maybe "Grow up", you decide to call me an idiot. Thanks bud. Trying to make a point with you has huge dividends. You say I'm ignoring you, but I actually read your thread and respond to your points, even if I don't agree. You're just sitting there saying Tony Allen isn't a good jump shooter, which everybody and their dog that saw a Boston game this year already knows.

Agoo, thanks for the word. I knew I couldn't be the only one seeing it this way.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

> Guy, I know how bad TA's shot is


That was the very first thing I said.



> That's why he's working on it


That was the second thing I said

Why did you fail to see that?


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Gerald Green said:


> That was the very first thing I said.
> 
> 
> That was the second thing I said
> ...


You know...if you call a guy an idiot and then say that you agree with him...well...what does that make you?


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> He just tries out new dunks so he can hopefully be in the Dunk Contest.


Oh yeah, but he works on his shot, too, right? As well, three pointers are a key component of shooting. But he never works on those, either...right?

If you want to keep what has slid to childish banter back and forth, I'm game.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

agoo101284 said:


> You know...if you call a guy an idiot and then say that you agree with him...well...what does that make you?


I hope you are talking to him. We spent all this time arguing on it the first thing I said was. Allen can't shoot. And I quoted someone else in saying the day Green was drafted Allen started shooting 100 3's a day. Then he seemed to argue against it and now he agrees with what I orginally said


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> Oh yeah, but he works on his shot, too, right? As well, three pointers are a key component of shooting. But he never works on those, either...right?
> 
> If you want to keep what has slid to childish banter back and forth, I'm game.


Give me facts. Like his 37% shot w/o dunks


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Gerald Green said:


> Give me facts. Like his 37% shot w/o dunks


Facts like, "Go to the Heat forum and ask"?


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

ehmunro- i'm not trying to say that TA is going to be a great scorer or anything, i'm just trying to point out to GG that his argument that TA isn't a good shooting guard because he can't shoot is just silly.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

agoo101284 said:


> Facts like, "Go to the Heat forum and ask"?


I told Prem it was not listed anywhere. There is not stat for midrange jumpers online. Saying go to the Heat forum and ask if he can shoot midrange is like saying...."Go to the Celtic forum and ask if Ricky Davis can shoot midrange"


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Gerald Green said:


> We spent all this time arguing on it the first thing I said was. Allen can't shoot.


Incorrect. I always agreed that Allen couldn't shoot.



> And I quoted someone else in saying the day Green was drafted Allen started shooting 100 3's a day.


And I wanted proof. I didn't argue that he didn't. I said I wanted proof and not just your opinion.



> Then he seemed to argue against it and now he agrees with what I orginally said


I began arguing with you when you said TA will not have improved his shooting next year and that you doubted he took 10 triples a day, and that he only works on his dunks. I never argued that 2004 Tony Allen could not shoot.



> Give me facts. Like his 37% shot w/o dunks


You've done the math wrong, here, by the way. You subtracted 40 from his FG's made but not from his FG's attempted, which is inaccurate. In fact, Allen shot 41% when you don't factor in dunks. So before you criticize my lack of facts being brought here, you could at least make sure that yours are correct.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Gerald Green said:


> I told Prem it was not listed anywhere. There is not stat for midrange jumpers online. Saying go to the Heat forum and ask if he can shoot midrange is like saying...."Go to the Celtic forum and ask if Ricky Davis can shoot midrange"


What I'm saying is that you can't critique one post for not using facts, and then say, "Go to the Heat forum and ask."


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

> And I wanted proof. I didn't argue that he didn't. I said I wanted proof and not just your opinion.


It was a sarcastic responce Allen knows damn well he needs to be a good shooter and needs to start shooting more than point blank range


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

Doesn't everyone have a much lower FG% when you subtract dunks/layups? Or am I just crazy?


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

agoo101284 said:


> What I'm saying is that you can't critique one post for not using facts, and then say, "Go to the Heat forum and ask."


How should I do it then? Make up stats?


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> It was a sarcastic responce Allen knows damn well he needs to be a good shooter and needs to start shooting more than point blank range


Pick one, buddy, is it 

1) a sarcastic response
2) something you quoted from somebody else.

And you don't have any comment on your incorrect FG% "fact" (and I use the term loosely here)?



> How should I do it then? Make up stats?


If I'm not mistaken, agoo is basically saying "Don't throw stones if you live in glass houses".


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

Gerald Green said:


> It was a sarcastic responce Allen knows damn well he needs to be a good shooter and needs to start shooting more than point blank range


And Mark Blount knows damn well he needs to be a good rebounder and needs to start getting 10 rebounds a game.

And Marcus Banks knows damn well he needs to be a good passer needs to start getting 6 assists a game.

And Al Jefferson knows damn well that he needs to be a good defender and start getting 2 blocks a game.


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

Gerald Green said:


> How should I do it then? Make up stats?


You should try making an argument that doesn't suck, for starters.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

****, DH, I just thought these guys didn't know they had to do these things. We'll be a 55+ win team next year for sure.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Delontes Herpes said:


> Doesn't everyone have a much lower FG% when you subtract dunks/layups? Or am I just crazy?


 :biggrin: 

um...that would seem to make sense yes. Take away high % shots from a players average - and their FG% is lowered. What this prooves I have no idea.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

Delontes Herpes said:


> Doesn't everyone have a much lower FG% when you subtract dunks/layups? Or am I just crazy?


Yes. 
Davis shoots 44% w/o dunks.
Pierce shoots 44% w/o dunks
LaFrentz shoots 45% w/o dunks

All much better then TA


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

Delontes Herpes said:


> You should try making an argument that doesn't suck, for starters.


So by saying D-Wade can shoot does not suck is a bad agrument?


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Yes.
> Davis shoots 44% w/o dunks.
> Pierce shoots 44% w/o dunks
> LaFrentz shoots 45% w/o dunks
> ...


I like how you picked the 3 best jump shooters on the team. Did you do you calculations right this time, by the way?

They're 3-4% better than Allen. And this is because they are all veterans with vastly superior jump shots. No argument there. Give Allen a little time, his J will improve.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Gerald Green said:


> Yes.
> Davis shoots 44% w/o dunks.
> Pierce shoots 44% w/o dunks
> LaFrentz shoots 45% w/o dunks
> ...


since you are a big Walker fan:

what's Walker's FG% w/o dunks? oh wait he can't jump so he can't dunk.
so...what's Walker's FG% w/o layups?


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

12%.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

Walker is 43% w/o dunks

He had 12 dunks all of last year :|


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

Gerald Green said:


> So by saying D-Wade can shoot does not suck is a bad agrument?


Huh?


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Walker is 43% w/o dunks
> 
> He had 12 dunks all of last year


EDIT: My bad. But if he only had 12 dunks wouldn't it be 42%?


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

Layups should be group in with dunks. Neither of them are a shot.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

Delontes Herpes said:


> Huh?


So by saying D-Wade can shoot *and** does not suck is a bad agrument?


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> EDIT: My bad. But if he only had 12 dunks wouldn't it be 42%?


EDIT:nvm then


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Gerald Green said:


> Walker is 43% w/o dunks
> 
> He had 12 dunks all of last year :|


Walker is 41% for his career and 42% last season. His FG% goes UP when you take away dunks?


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

Causeway said:


> Walker is 41% for his career and 42% last season. His FG% goes UP when you take away dunks?


Read PDUB


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

(581 - 12) / (1377 - 12) 
(569) / (1365) = 0.4168

Math done. That's 42%. 

Causeway, Walker dunks so infrequently that it takes his FGAT's and FGM's down so little that it makes a miniscule difference.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

Causeway said:


> Walker is 41% for his career and 42% last season. His FG% goes UP when you take away dunks?


I used his Celtics stats. From last year he is 44% w/o dunks. Overall he is 42%w/o dunks.


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

Gerald Green said:


> So by saying D-Wade can shoot *and** does not suck is a bad agrument?


This sentence is still incoherent, but I understand what you're trying to say.

Wade can shoot mid rangers a little, but not as much as a good shooting guard like Michael Redd can.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Where did the 43% come from, then?


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

Delontes Herpes said:


> This sentence is still incoherent, but I understand what you're trying to say.
> 
> Wade can shoot mid rangers a little, but not as much as a good shooting guard like Michael Redd can.


Ok and to be honest Wade is a PG playing SG. I think you all agree with me on that


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> Where did the 43% come from, then?


It might of been an error or I may of rounded down by accident.


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

Gerald Green said:


> Ok and to be honest Wade is a PG playing SG. I think you all agree with me on that


No, he's a SG as he has played SG his whole life. Yet he isn't that good at shooting. So he must be a rather mediocre SG.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

Delontes Herpes said:


> No, he's a SG as he has played SG his whole life. Yet he isn't that good at shooting. So he must be a rather mediocre SG.


You are wrong my friend. He played PG all last year (03-04)

Edit: 54 games started at PG last year then got injured and Alston took over


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Delontes Herpes said:


> ehmunro- i'm not trying to say that TA is going to be a great scorer or anything, i'm just trying to point out to GG that his argument that TA isn't a good shooting guard because he can't shoot is just silly.


In fairness, his eFG% on jumpshots is downright pathetic (.361), and he's not athletic enough to get to the rim at will. These are the reasons I see him as Blount-bait. He's overvalued at the moment and the risk that his value doesn't increase is pretty high (simply due to the fact that reality sets in this year).


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

Gerald Green said:


> You are wrong my friend. He played PG all last year (03-04)
> 
> Edit: 54 games started at PG last year then got injured and Alston took over


He's played SG the vast majority of his career, including last year.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> (581 - 12) / (1377 - 12)
> (569) / (1365) = 0.4168
> 
> Math done. That's 42%.
> ...


got it. 12 dunks for a PF. crazy.


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> In fairness, his eFG% on jumpshots is downright pathetic (.361), and he's not athletic enough to get to the rim at will. These are the reasons I see him as Blount-bait. He's overvalued at the moment and the risk that his value doesn't increase is pretty high (simply due to the fact that reality sets in this year).


I think he will be a solid enough player such that he has greater value than just helping to unload Blount.

That said, I'm not his biggest fan and I would absolutely not object to trading him if they can get value in return...I think that between Green, Reed, and Gomes (especially Green) his minutes will be filled rather easily.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Delontes Herpes said:


> I think he will be a solid enough player such that he has greater value than just helping to unload Blount.


By including Allen they're likely to get something more than a matching contract with one less year on it.



Delontes Herpes said:


> That said, I'm not his biggest fan and I would absolutely not object to trading him if they can get value in return...I think that between Green, Reed, and Gomes (especially Green) his minutes will be filled rather easily.


That's my thought, Pierce & Davis will clearly see the lion's share of the minutes on the wing, with Reed and Gomes needing minutes Tony's getting squeezed. With Green waiting in the wings it seems the writing's on the wall.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

I was at the games in Vegas. Al was awful. He was trying to use his left hand more than usual, and shot a few longer range jumpers, but he was embarassing with his defense and rebounding. In practice, he was getting killed on the boards, too.

He spent the entire summer reading his press clippings. I'd expect Gomes to take most of his minutes at this point, and I'm not adverse to trading Al if the price was right.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Truth34 said:


> I was at the games in Vegas. Al was awful. He was trying to use his left hand more than usual, and shot a few longer range jumpers, but he was embarassing with his defense and rebounding. In practice, he was getting killed on the boards, too.
> 
> He spent the entire summer reading his press clippings. I'd expect Gomes to take most of his minutes at this point, *and I'm not adverse to trading Al if the price was right.*


wow - he was that bad?


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

If the price was right, I'd be in favor of moving anybody on this team.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> If the price was right, I'd be in favor of moving anybody on this team.


agreed. 

I guess you can pretty much say that about anyone in the NBA really.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

If I'm the Spurs, I don't trade Duncan for any realistic offer.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> If I'm the Spurs, I don't trade Duncan for any realistic offer.


Or if I am the Cavs... I think you all know where I am going


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

True on Duncan. 

Actually that's not a bad question. Who in the NBA would you say is 100% untouchable?


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

Causeway said:


> True on Duncan.
> 
> Actually that's not a bad question. Who in the NBA would you say is 100% untouchable?


LBJ :biggrin:


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

Duncan, Lebron, Amare, Wade.

I think that's about it.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I think D-Ho and Kobe make that list, too. Raef Lafrentz may be 100% untradeable, does that count? :biggrin:


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> I think D-Ho and Kobe make that list, too.


Howard because he's a stud, Bryant because he's the GM of the Lakeshow and would never trade himself.



> Raef Lafrentz may be 100% untradeable, does that count?


Haha.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

P-Dub34 said:


> Bryant because he's the GM of the Lakeshow and would never trade himself.


Well, yeah, of course.


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## Flava_D (Apr 22, 2005)

untouchable huh?

Duncan is obvious. I think T-MAC and Yao are at this point. Bosh probably is. Lebron is no doubt. Hmm, I think Kobe could be traded, how bout he trades himself to Orlando to prove a team from Orlando can win the title? Amare is untouchable. And I truly think Dirk is too....thats my list


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> I think D-Ho and Kobe make that list, too. Raef Lafrentz may be 100% untradeable, does that count? :biggrin:


Oh yeah, forget about Howard. Kobe is borderline but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.


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## BostonBasketball (Jan 10, 2005)

I personally think that the FG% w/o dunks is a silly argument...theyre part of how players score. What would shaq be without dunks, how about Amare, both of those players are considered two of the best players in the league. Now if you want to argue that they are forwards and that they are supposed to dunk, what would Kobe shoot, how about Lebron. Dunks are part of everyone's game. I agree with everyone that Allen need to improve his shot, but he did hit his share of mid-range shots last year, I would think that he probably made more mid-range shots than marcus, and probably Antoine (but thats only cause antoine has never shot anything but a 3 or a running hook in his life). 

On Al, I'm not that worried about him. He averaged 7.5 ppg, 6 rpg in 23.5 mpg. Granted that not quite as good as his per minute averages from last season (he average 21.7 p/48 and 14.2 r/48). I think that Al just stuggled with his shot during the summer league games. I think that Al is one of those players that is not really effected by whose guarding him, in my mind its all on Al on how well he plays. When hes hitting his shots, hes hard to stop, but when hes not, you'll see numbers like you did in the summer league. I think that once the season starts, Al will be fine and ready to go.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

Well, he was awful, but that is not why I would entertain offers for him. 

It's just like everything, buy low, sell high. If the kid was half as good as Celtics fans made him out to be, we could get a very good player in return.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Per 48 stats SUCK. Wang ZhiZhi is a stud per 48. If the player was good enough to get in solid minutes, there wouldn't be any need for per 48 stats.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

BostonBasketball said:


> I personally think that the FG% w/o dunks is a silly argument...theyre part of how players score. What would shaq be without dunks, how about Amare, both of those players are considered two of the best players in the league. Now if you want to argue that they are forwards and that they are supposed to dunk, what would Kobe shoot, how about Lebron. Dunks are part of everyone's game. I agree with everyone that Allen need to improve his shot, but he did hit his share of mid-range shots last year, I would think that he probably made more mid-range shots than marcus, and probably Antoine (but thats only cause antoine has never shot anything but a 3 or a running hook in his life).


One, jumpshooting ability is absolutely vital when you're an undersized shooting guard that lacks D-Wade's otherworldly athleticism. Of course Amare and Shaq dunk more often than anything else, they're also able, physically, to get to the rim anytime they want. Tony Allen isn't. As Indiana showed, if you put a defender between Tony and the basket when a shot goes in the air his offense vanishes. Two, you're wrong about Tony's jumpshooting, it's far and away the worst on the team (Tony's eFG% on jumpers was .361 to .376 for Marcus and .417 for 'Toine). It's a _real_ weakness in his game. So, given that his trade value is probably at its highest, I think he and Blount are headed elsewhere.


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

Per 48 stats are semi useful for guys who play regular rotation minutes. For guys who get most of their minutes in garbage time, it means nothing. And Summer League per 48 stats mean less than nothing.


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## BostonBasketball (Jan 10, 2005)

> One, jumpshooting ability is absolutely vital when you're an undersized shooting guard that lacks D-Wade's otherworldly athleticism. Of course Amare and Shaq dunk more often than anything else, they're also able, physically, to get to the rim anytime they want. Tony Allen isn't. As Indiana showed, if you put a defender between Tony and the basket when a shot goes in the air his offense vanishes. Two, you're wrong about Tony's jumpshooting, it's far and away the worst on the team (Tony's eFG% on jumpers was .361 to .376 for Marcus and .417 for 'Toine). It's a real weakness in his game. So, given that his trade value is probably at its highest, I think he and Blount are headed elsewhere.


To clarify, I didn't say that Allen made a better % of mid-range shots, I said that he made more, there's a difference. And also, I would say that Tony Allen has some pretty good athletcism for a 6-4 SG, all that he needs to do to become LIKE dwyane wade (he will never be as good as Dwyane Wade) is to improve his ball-handling. It could be argued that Allen is a better shooter than Tony Allen, as Tony shot .387 from 3-point land (which is respectable) while Wade shot a putrid .289. I do believe that Wade is a better mid-range shooter than Allen though as he was constantly burying long jumpers when I watched him in the playoffs. Overall I think that Tony will be a solid role player. He will never be a star, or for that matter a consistent starter in my mind, yet he will be a solid bench player that comes off the bench and provides energy.


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

Dwyane Wade shouldn't be in the argument. I was just using him as an extreme example to demonstrate that GG's "shooting guards suck if they can't shoot" argument is wrong.

I'm sure a large portion of Wade's 3 point attempts came while the shot clock was running down with the ball in his hands and 2 hands in his face. Allen was shooting when defenses literally gave him the shot.

Dwyane Wade and Tony Allen should no longer be mentioned in the same paragraph.


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## BackwoodsBum (Jul 2, 2003)

Wow, this thread has wandered all over the place hasn't it! 

Back to the original topic...I don't put much stock in anything Chad Ford has to say and I don't put much stock in summer league performance so I'm not real worried about Big Al at this point. Now if he's even playing in the summer league next year I'll be worried because he should have progressed to the point where that isn't necessary by then. Until then I say relax and see what happens when the real games start.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

> Dwyane Wade shouldn't be in the argument. I was just using him as an extreme example to demonstrate that GG's "shooting guards suck if they can't shoot" argument is wrong.


And I stand by it


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## banner17 (Jun 28, 2003)

Truth34 said:


> Well, he was awful, but that is not why I would entertain offers for him.
> 
> It's just like everything, buy low, sell high. If the kid was half as good as Celtics fans made him out to be, we could get a very good player in return.



that philosopy worked wonderfully with Billups and Joe Johnson didn't it?  


I think Al is worth the wait. He's a second year player out of high school. Honestly, how many 2nd year big men out of High School have had a major impact in the league? I can think of two - KG and Amare - both of whom are far more athletic than Al. Dwight Howard will probably be next on that list. 

I say hold onto the kid. I'm sticking to what I've said since watching him play last summer. AJ will develop into a poor man's Elton Brand - which in my opinion is still pretty darned good - especially for a 15th pick.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

banner17 said:


> and to top it all off? We're talking Chad Ford's opinion!!!


I was waiting for someone to mention this. Thank you banner.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

On the untouchable topic...IMO there's only 2.

LeBron James and Tim Duncan.

Offer me 5 all-stars and they won't be traded.


We've seen what happened with the Lakers when they got 3 "good players"


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

I'm not too sure that there is an owner in the league that would sign off on a deal sending Yao Ming away from their team. He's worth millions.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

BostonBasketball said:


> To clarify, I didn't say that Allen made a better % of mid-range shots, I said that he made more, there's a difference. And also, I would say that Tony Allen has some pretty good athletcism for a 6-4 SG, all that he needs to do to become LIKE dwyane wade (he will never be as good as Dwyane Wade) is to improve his ball-handling. It could be argued that Allen is a better shooter than Tony Allen, as Tony shot .387 from 3-point land (which is respectable) while Wade shot a putrid .289. I do believe that Wade is a better mid-range shooter than Allen though as he was constantly burying long jumpers when I watched him in the playoffs. Overall I think that Tony will be a solid role player. He will never be a star, or for that matter a consistent starter in my mind, yet he will be a solid bench player that comes off the bench and provides energy.


Tony Allen measured in at _under_ 6'4" _in_ shoes. And I specifically stated earlier in the thread that Wade gets by on athleticism (see my point about how badly Wade played after being injured). Without that otherwordly athleticism Wade dragged the Heat down (I'm on Shaq's side in that dispute, when you can't drain a J and you have the big hoss under the hoop you _have_ to get him the ball). Allen doesn't have Wade's handle, doesn't have Wade's athleticism, and is older than Wade. The Celtics are loaded at the wing, having a guy whose job is to provide energy 8-10 minutes a game is a luxury when that player has trade value. Given his reduction in minutes, it's going to bring a reduction in trade value.


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