# Gooden a Possibility?



## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

I found this on the other board and thought it would be interesting to discuss. In all fairness, the original poster said to take it with a grain of salt.



bigboy0206 from RealGM said:


> Okay, so I typically dont do this but if felt that this time was warranted.
> 
> I have a buddy that I work with who happens to know a close associate of John Paxson. He spoke with this guy yesterday afternoon. According to the associate, Paxson has one more move up his sleave. I asked my buddy if he had any details as to who and he said no, they guy didnt give any names. But based on the "reading between the lines" method, he got the notion that a S&T for Gooden is in the works.
> 
> ...


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

It is interesting. I know the board is pretty split on Gooden, but I think he'd be a good fit next to Wallace. We'd be a bit short I suppose, but I'm not too worried about it. We then try to address a center with next year's pick, and that's pretty much our frontcourt. Wallace gets swapped out for Tyrus at the end of his deal. 

Who, I wonder, will be gone in the S&T? With Thabo looking very comfortable running the point, Duhon certainly could be expendable. Do we ship out Sweets as well?


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Well, there's no way he's shipping out a core member for friggin' drew gooden, I know that much.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

I never did see the pressing need for Gooden this summer. At least right away. I'd like to see how Sweetney comes in first with his weight and contract year 'bump'. If Sweets has good reports, its certainly a cheaper short term option than a long Gooden deal, the utility of which is debatable anyhow. Can't we make a deal for a Gooden level guy on more of an as-needed basis later?

We have 2 new big guys to work into a rotation as is. Theres nothing about a Drew Gooden level guy that makes me feel like its our last best opportunity to get better. This feels like a forced move


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

He'd easily be the best PF on the team, unless Tyrus comes on really, really strong.

We're solid at nearly every position and rated at a top 10 team. 

Why take a gamble on "Sweets" finding his way?

He's in his prime, one of the better rebounders in the game, and would give some offensive punch at the 4 to pair with Wallace. PJ is a nice player, but better served as a 15-20 minute a game backup at his advanced age.

STARTERS: Hinrich/Gordon/Nocioni/Gooden/Wallace
BENCH: Thabo/Deng/Tyrus/PJ/Allen/HAWK/Miles?

Only concern at that point is can Thabo hold down the fort as backup. Pick up a Brunson type as the season goes on if he can’t. I’d rather have a in-his-prime PF that can log 30 a night at the 4 and lose our backup PG than gamble on Sweets or rely on PJ for 30 at his advanced age. 

The time is now. Get it done. LeBron is going to get nothing except better.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

I know Cleveland would want Duhon, he fits them perfectly. I would speculate that they also would want Michael Sweetney. I would be in favor of this deal, despite being a Sweetney fan, because Gooden has improved his game significantly and now appears ready to take it to the next level, plus the familiarity with Hinrich and MIles who potentially could make the team.

ACE


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

While the Gooden nugget is interesting, I found it more interesting that JR was "forced" on Pax and that Pax was hell bent of getting rid of Tyson regardless of what happened this summer. I suppose things start to make more sense when viewed from that perspective. Paxson was targetting big men in FA and the draft the whole year - Tyson simply wasn't in the equation. That's probably why Bilas, Anthony, Screaming A. and friends were so sure Tyson was getting traded.

But as far as Drew is concerned, if we get him at a reasonable price then I see no reason not to pull the trigger. He does improve our current frontcourt depth and serves as a viable replacement for PJ next season. Last I read the Cavs wanted to offer him $6 million a year and Drew wanted a Nene-esque package. We can come somewhere in the middle which isn't bad at all for a starting caliber PF that can play center in a pinch. The big problem I see here is that Nocioni would be the odd man out.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> The time is now. Get it done. LeBron is going to get nothing except better.


Especially with the Bulls helping his team improve.


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## Qwerty123 (May 31, 2002)

Unless it's a short-term deal (like 2 years) or Reinsdorf is willing to pay everyone coming up for extensions, I'd say no to Gooden. We need someone to transition from the 4 to the 5 as Thomas matures and Wallace declines, and I don't see Gooden as someone who can make the shift to the 5 eventually. But like I said, if signing Gooden doesn't rule out resigning everyone else, go for it. He gives us a better chance of winning this year.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> Especially with the Bulls helping his team improve.


Yah, but the Bulls become a better team and they are worse off by losing Gooden.

Its not *that* hard to find a decent backup PG.

Clev becomes worse next year and the Bulls become better after making this trade.

Duhon is a nice player..... not a guy that is the last piece of a championship puzzle.

Given the unsettled state of the East right now, Gooden could be that for the Bulls this season, IMO. 

No reason to hesitate, if you want to make a run at the title this season that is.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

jnrjr79 said:


> It is interesting. I know the board is pretty split on Gooden, but I think he'd be a good fit next to Wallace. We'd be a bit short I suppose, but I'm not too worried about it. We then try to address a center with next year's pick, and that's pretty much our frontcourt. Wallace gets swapped out for Tyrus at the end of his deal.
> 
> Who, I wonder, will be gone in the S&T? With Thabo looking very comfortable running the point, Duhon certainly could be expendable. Do we ship out Sweets as well?


From what I've seen of Tyrus he is alot closer than we thought. He is 1-2 years from being ready as opposed to 3-4 years. Gooden would make sense if Tyrus isn't going to be ready, but he will only get in the way, demand shots, sulk when not getting shots and end up in the doghouse at $10M per year. Can you say Tyson II?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

What about this year though?

You don't break the bank for 33 year old Ben Wallace and then plan to make your run 1-2 years from now, IMO.

Pistons worked fine with Rasheed, Big Ben, McDyess.
Bulls would work fine with Gooden, Big Ben, Tyrus.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

The key for me with this is whether we think Thomas and Gooden can play together some at the 4/5. If so then you make this. If not then a long term deal with Gooden is not worth it. The deal if made I think would be Duhon,Sweets,Basden for Gooden, Pavlovic(give us some guard depth). Because of the Kirk/Gooden relationship and chemistry connection I lean towards doing it(if the Gooden price is right)


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Yah, but the Bulls become a better team and they are worse off by losing Gooden.
> 
> Its not *that* hard to find a decent backup PG.
> 
> ...


I think Duhon's addition for them would have a greater impact on them than Gooden's addition to the Bulls. I also think Gooden's subtraction would likely have less of a negative effect on Cleveland than Duhon's subtraction would have for the Bulls, especially if Hinrich were to get injured.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Basghetti80 said:


> The key for me with this is whether we think Thomas and Gooden can play together some at the 4/5. If so then you make this. If not then a long term deal with Gooden is not worth it. The deal if made I think would be Duhon,Sweets,Basden for Gooden, Pavlovic(give us some guard depth). Because of the Kirk/Gooden relationship and chemistry connection I lean towards doing it(if the Gooden price is right)



I don't think you will see Gooden & Thomas together at the 4/5. Still, we have a high draft pick next season (presumably) to address the need for a legit center to pair with Thomas or Gooden. I'd look at this as hedging your bets because we could always keep the better of Thomas or Gooden (probably Thomas) and deal the other for something else we need down the road after a decision has been made. In the short term Gooden helps us make that push to get further in the playoffs right now than just about anyone left in FA.

Duhon is a valuable pg and he could even start in Cleveland but I still have to believe Chicago would be legit contenders with Gooden and it appears Sefolosha will be able to man the point. Adding Duhon will make Cleveland much better, make no mistake about it, but loosing Gooden will hurt them too.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

fleetwood macbull said:


> I never did see the pressing need for Gooden this summer. At least right away. I'd like to see how Sweetney comes in first with his weight and contract year 'bump'. If Sweets has good reports, its certainly a cheaper short term option than a long Gooden deal, the utility of which is debatable anyhow. Can't we make a deal for a Gooden level guy on more of an as-needed basis later?
> 
> We have 2 new big guys to work into a rotation as is. Theres nothing about a Drew Gooden level guy that makes me feel like its our last best opportunity to get better. This feels like a forced move


I agree with this. Gooden does bring one overrated (around here, at least) skill to the table, but overall is not a very good all-around player. Plus, I hate to see him block Noc or Thomas from seeing minutes at the 4, both of whom I consider better options at that spot. I would wait until mid-season to determine whether or not we really need a player with post-scoring ability. We'll still have the same assets to deal then.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> I agree with this. Gooden does bring one overrated (around here, at least) skill to the table, but overall is not a very good all-around player. Plus, I hate to see him block Noc or Thomas from seeing minutes at the 4, both of whom I consider better options at that spot. I would wait until mid-season to determine whether or not we really need a player with post-scoring ability. We'll still have the same assets to deal then.


When was the last time you saw Gooden? I only ask because I used to really dislike him as a player but the last few times I watched him he seemed to really improve and his bball iq has grown some as well.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

Tyson Cleotis Chandler
Position: F
Height: 7' 1'' Weight: 235
Born: 10/2/1982, in Hanford, CA

Drew Gooden
Position: F
Height: 6' 10'' Weight: 230
Born: 9/24/1981, in Oakland, CA

Tyson's best season was 8 ppg and 9.7 rpg. Drew's best was 14.4 ppg and 9.2 rpg. If Tyson can play center a whole season then I don't see why Drew can get some burn at center. Gooden spent a third of his time at center last year and the numbers suggest he did pretty well with a PER over 23 and against of 15.9.

http://www.82games.com/0506/05CLE12C.HTM

I agree with kukoc, the Wallace signing means the time is now. Solidify our frontcourt now and sort out the Tyrus, 2007 pick and Nocioni mess later.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Basghetti80 said:


> The key for me with this is whether we think Thomas and Gooden can play together some at the 4/5. If so then you make this. If not then a long term deal with Gooden is not worth it. The deal if made I think would be Duhon,Sweets,Basden for Gooden, Pavlovic(give us some guard depth). Because of the Kirk/Gooden relationship and chemistry connection I lean towards doing it(if the Gooden price is right)


I think Gooden can play some 5. He actually seemed to play that role with Cleveland, playing next to Marshall a fair amount.

He's not a pure center, obviously, but on an athletic team that'll be flying up and down the court (and playing next to some combination of Thomas, Wallace, Deng, Gordon, Thabo, and Kirk, he seems to fit the bill pretty well to me.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

I have to admit adding Gooden makes us top 3 in the league next season I think. 

Hinrich,Thabo
Gordon,Griff
Nocioni,Deng,Khryapa
Gooden,Thomas,Allen
Wallace,Brown

Hard not to like that.


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

backup point guard is easy to get, but you dont want to address it once the draft is over and free agency nearly is.

losing Duhon makes the PG situation here hard to like.


I also dont know that Cleveland wants a player coming off surgery, but I guess the fact they'd lose Gooden anyway makes it worth a look for them.



I havent seen enough of Gooden lately, but a well-traveled (against his plans) guy who was sitting in favor of Anderson Varejao..... i dont know how that puts us in contention automatically. with either him or Sweets, we'd have a flawed PF with some knack for lowpost scoring. and one of those guys would be coming cheap and short-term.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> I think Duhon's addition for them would have a greater impact on them than Gooden's addition to the Bulls. I also think Gooden's subtraction would likely have less of a negative effect on Cleveland than Duhon's subtraction would have for the Bulls, especially if Hinrich were to get injured.


i posted almost these exact sentiments in another forum; if the bull is wise, they'll wait on gooden (if they really want him, which i'm not convinced of) and get him at a price they like. there's no "rush" to go for a ring this year, as wallace (nor pj) won't "age" before our very eyes as some prognosticate. sweetney is a gamble, but as a cheaper gamble with low post scoring, gooden as a "need", isn't.

lastly, while lebron is likely improving, so are the players on the bull; i doubt paxson, skiles or the bull is shaking in their sneakers. last year cleveland made moves that improved their team, this year not so much. this season the bull made a splash, let's see where the teams end up this year. frankly, the cav are a lebron injury from being a lottery team; the bull isn't constructed that way, therefore imo, things would have to go terribly wrong injury wise for the bull to fall flat and regress.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

DengNabbit said:


> backup point guard is easy to get, but you dont want to address it once the draft is over and free agency nearly is.
> 
> losing Duhon makes the PG situation here hard to like.
> 
> ...



I think we did address backup pg in the draft with Sefo. If you watched the summer league games he was running the point fluidly and with ease. Of course the competetion will be stiffer in the NBA but from what I have seen of Thabo I think he will be fine handling back up pg duties for us.

I hear what your saying about Gooden, I honestly think sitting him in favor of Arujo was a coaching mistake. He played well the few times I saw him in the playoffs, Arujo didn't do much except provide size.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

I'm thinking that if we add Gooden, we are saying goodbye to either Luol or Andres. Some reasons:

*1)* From the perspective of the Cavalier, I doubt that Sweets and Duhon are enough to have them do the trade. I haven't been following any negotiations, so feel free to fill me in, but I've got to imagine there's a better deal out there for them.

*2)* From the perspective of the Bull, it seems pretty clear that Pax and Uncle Jerry have players scheduled for certain salary slots in the future. They are likely already planning on how to resign their "core", keep them happy, and stay outside of the luxury tax. If we add Gooden for more than a two-year contract, he effectively becomes a member of that "core". Meaning, I think, that someone else officially un-becomes "core".

*3)* Also from the perspective of the Bull, finding legit minutes for Andres, Luol, Gooden, Tyrus, and Sefolosha would be near impossible. Up until this summer, we could (possibly?) imagine Luol getting some minutes at SG or PF, and we've certainly seen Andres play effectively at PF for stretches. With Sefolosha needing minutes at SG, and also likely logging a few at SF, and with TT2 being SF/PF potentially, we really have a minutes squeeze if we're trying to get enough time from all of them. Duhon going in the trade will open some PG minutes for Sef, and Sweets' departure will open up some PF minutes, but I'm not sure either of those two are slotted for huge minutes anyway.

*4)* Given the possible minutes crunch, you have to ask if Gooden would be more effective on the floor than Luol, Andres, or TT2. Given that we just drafted TT2, I think he isn't likely a part of this equation. I personally would rather have Luol or Andres.... both better passers and scorers, both familiar with the Bull systems, both good character and hustle guys..... than Gooden. Pax may or may not agree.

Ultimately, I'd guess if Pax had to choose between Andres and Luol, he'd choose to keep Andres (play-off performace, more consistent, slightly more versatility). Meaning if Pax values Gooden over Luol, then Luol becomes a part of the Gooden package. If not, I have a hard time seeing a scenario where both Cleveland and the Bull can find a happy deal. I, personally, am not against Gooden, but prefer we keep Du and Deng (I doubt Sweets remains after this year anyway, so I see him as expendable).

I hope Pax feels the same way.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Wynn said:


> I'm thinking that if we add Gooden, we are saying goodbye to either Luol or Andres. Some reasons:
> 
> *1)* From the perspective of the Cavalier, I doubt that Sweets and Duhon are enough to have them do the trade. I haven't been following any negotiations, so feel free to fill me in, but I've got to imagine there's a better deal out there for them.
> 
> ...


Well, it is a sign and trade so from Clevelands perspective they can't exactly shop for the best deal, it is more like get something or get nothing. Given that circumstance and Clevelands need for a legit pg I think Duhon & Sweets would be a pretty attractive offer.

Your other points are well thought out and it could indeed cause a bit of a minutes crush, depends a lot on how much the Bulls want to play T2 in his rookie season and how much they want to play Noc at the 4 too.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

OK, here's a couple questions on this deal:

First off, Hoopshype has Cleveland's salary at 49 million right now, without Shannon Brown. However, I believe from what I read in the **** FAQ that should you plan to use your exceptions (MLE, etc), they are added to your actual salary when calculating whether you are over the cap or not. As far as I can see, there is no reason to decline these exceptions if you're right up against the cap, as Cleveland is. Therefore, as far as I can tell, Cleveland is over the cap.

Duhon makes 3.02 million this year. Sweetney makes 2.70. Together, that's 5.72 million dollars in cap room we could send out. According to Patricia's NBA salaries, Gooden made 4.07 million next year. Unless we planned on offering him a deal starting at about 4.9 million (a 20% raise over his last year), which I doubt he'd take because he can make a little more in his first year signing an MLE offer sheet, he'll be a BYC player. Oy, this calculation again.

So as far as I can tell, we can't just start Gooden at a deal for somewhere around the 5.72 million, similar to what we can send out. It would seem that we would have to accept some salary back as well as part of the deal. Palovic?

A deal starting Gooden at 5.3 million per, with 10.5% raises (could be a 5/33 or 6/41 deal) + Pavlovic would seem to fit the basic BYC provisions in a deal for Gooden. However, then, have we taken on more salary than we have given out? If so, we might not be able to complete the deal, because we are right up against the cap, and to my knowlege, we can only go over by $100,000. Also, if we get to this level where we're at our absolute maximum, I believe we can't sign any other players this year, which would leave us potentially very thin at point guard, unless we traded for one.

Damn you, CBA, damn you! 

Please tell me if some of my information/interpretations are incorrect.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> Well, it is a sign and trade so from Clevelands perspective they can't exactly shop for the best deal, it is more like get something or get nothing. Given that circumstance and Clevelands need for a legit pg I think Duhon & Sweets would be a pretty attractive offer.
> 
> Your other points are well thought out and it could indeed cause a bit of a minutes crush, depends a lot on how much the Bulls want to play T2 in his rookie season and how much they want to play Noc at the 4 too.


Wouldn't they try to find the best S&T for their situation? Of course, given S&T, Gooden would also have to be willing.

I'm on board with bringing him in, just don't necessarily want to part with either Deng or Noc. Am a Duhon fan, but am okay with using him to make the deal work.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

Wynn said:


> Wouldn't they try to find the best S&T for their situation? Of course, given S&T, Gooden would also have to be willing.
> 
> I'm on board with bringing him in, just don't necessarily want to part with either Deng or Noc. Am a Duhon fan, but am okay with using him to make the deal work.


And Duhon would have to be willing to be traded (at least until August 15).

I think the big hang up here as what DMD pointed out about the CBA. I think Gooden will end up taking the QO and trying his luck next year.

Trades in the NBA can be damn difficult.


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

ace20004u said:


> I think we did address backup pg in the draft with Sefo. If you watched the summer league games he was running the point fluidly and with ease. Of course the competetion will be stiffer in the NBA but from what I have seen of Thabo I think he will be fine handling back up pg duties for us.


a team that just added Ben Wallace is not counting on a non-PG rookie to be their backup PG. and i absolutely do not like Thabo's dribble-behind-the-back tendency. 

i would not be surprised if Skiles keeps the two rooks somewhat benchridden until they show progress in whatever bad habits they bring in. 

again, as mentioned in the Baxter thread, success in Summer League sometimes serves as an indicator that a guy's best basketball serves the pre-NBA levels, going against non-NBA tweeners. not saying that's Thabo, but i'm basing nothing on Summer League. you dont set up your playoff team roster based on whatever's happening in Orlando. you just get a feel for where they're at.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> OK, here's a couple questions on this deal:
> 
> First off, Hoopshype has Cleveland's salary at 49 million right now, without Shannon Brown. However, I believe from what I read in the **** FAQ that should you plan to use your exceptions (MLE, etc), they are added to your actual salary when calculating whether you are over the cap or not. As far as I can see, there is no reason to decline these exceptions if you're right up against the cap, as Cleveland is. Therefore, as far as I can tell, Cleveland is over the cap.
> 
> ...



Thats interesting I hadn't heard any cap ramifications other than it was possible to do this deal and of course taking on Goodens salary would affect the Bulls future cap. Gooden just turned down a 6 mil a year deal with Cleveland and is asking for a Nene size deal, he will probably get something in the middle, say 8mil per.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

DengNabbit said:


> a team that just added Ben Wallace is not counting on a non-PG rookie to be their backup PG. and i absolutely do not like Thabo's dribble-behind-the-back tendency.
> 
> i would not be surprised if Skiles keeps the two rooks somewhat benchridden until they show progress in whatever bad habits they bring in.
> 
> again, as mentioned in the Baxter thread, success in Summer League sometimes serves as an indicator that a guy's best basketball serves the pre-NBA levels, going against non-NBA tweeners. not saying that's Thabo, but i'm basing nothing on Summer League. you dont set up your playoff team roster based on whatever's happening in Orlando. you just get a feel for where they're at.



Thabo is a 1-3 player, he can easily play any of those spots. And he has proffessional experience in the Italian league doing that very thing. He does get a little fancy with his dribbling but I am sure Skiles will work with him on it and despite the flash he doesn't seem to turn the ball over at an alarming rate.

They didn't trade up and draft Thabo to sit on the bench, he will see heavy minutes backing up Hinrich at the 1 & Gordon at the 2 IMO, I think Duhon is likely to be the odd man out. He is a capable distributor and defender but he lacks the size that Thabo has and the combo ability that makes Thabo such a great choice for a third guard to play with Hinrich & Gordon. I would be shocked if we don't see quite a bit out of both rookies THIS year.


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

ace20004u said:


> Thats interesting I hadn't heard any cap ramifications other than it was possible to do this deal and of course taking on Goodens salary would affect the Bulls future cap. Gooden just turned down a 6 mil a year deal with Cleveland and is asking for a Nene size deal, he will probably get something in the middle, say 8mil per.



the only way i see him coming to the Bulls (based on the cost cutting strategy we've seen in the last two trades) is if he somehow took a 3 or 4 year deal. 

Gooden will be 25 as this next season begins... so he wont do that.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

DengNabbit said:


> the only way i see him coming to the Bulls (based on the cost cutting strategy we've seen in the last two trades) is if he somehow took a 3 or 4 year deal.
> 
> Gooden will be 25 as this next season begins... so he wont do that.


He might not have a lot of options given whats being offered.


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## BULLS23 (Apr 13, 2003)

Heh, I'm rather indifferent on bringing Gooden in . . . I can see positives for both sides but also the negatives. I think that he would give us a pretty good scoring option on the block and he can run the Pick and Roll pretty well going to the hoop or shooting the short J. However, I've never like his defense and I don't know that he's more than an OK rebounder. I like Duhon and I would say that if Sweets comes in half in shape, we've got a pretty good combo for a cheaper and shorter price.

I'll trust Pax on this one.


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

ace20004u said:


> Thabo is a 1-3 player, he can easily play any of those spots. And he has proffessional experience in the Italian league doing that very thing. He does get a little fancy with his dribbling but I am sure Skiles will work with him on it and despite the flash he doesn't seem to turn the ball over at an alarming rate.
> 
> They didn't trade up and draft Thabo to sit on the bench, he will see heavy minutes backing up Hinrich at the 1 & Gordon at the 2 IMO, I think Duhon is likely to be the odd man out. He is a capable distributor and defender but he lacks the size that Thabo has and the combo ability that makes Thabo such a great choice for a third guard to play with Hinrich & Gordon. I would be shocked if we don't see quite a bit out of both rookies THIS year.



maybe everything you say comes to fruition, but do you really think the Bulls will do this? just as they're making moves to win now, are they going to put everything on an entirely unproven kid? 

Duhon has a big role here. I dont see how the roster, as it is now, makes him an 'odd man out' at all. If Hinrich were to get hurt, good small guards would just tear us up at will.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

DengNabbit said:


> i absolutely do not like Thabo's dribble-behind-the-back tendency.


I hate that too. He did that a lot in/near the paint in Orlando.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> He'd easily be the best PF on the team, unless Tyrus comes on really, really strong.
> 
> We're solid at nearly every position and rated at a top 10 team.
> 
> ...



I gotta say, I'm with you here Kukoc. That looks like a good squad.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> I gotta say, I'm with you here Kukoc. That looks like a good squad.


We'd be severely lacking in dependable point guard depth if Hinrich got injured. I think if we did this, I would want to at least add another point guard to the mix, even if it's a rookie like Aaron Miles.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> He'd easily be the best PF on the team, unless Tyrus comes on really, really strong.
> 
> We're solid at nearly every position and rated at a top 10 team.
> 
> ...


I can buy into this.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> We'd be severely lacking in dependable point guard depth if Hinrich got injured. I think if we did this, I would want to at least add another point guard to the mix, even if it's a rookie like Aaron Miles.



Well, I think that depends on whether you believe Thabo can run the point. All indications now seem to be that he can. A guy with his height would certainly pair well with Ben on the defensive end.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

DengNabbit said:


> maybe everything you say comes to fruition, but do you really think the Bulls will do this? just as they're making moves to win now, are they going to put everything on an entirely unproven kid?
> 
> Duhon has a big role here. I dont see how the roster, as it is now, makes him an 'odd man out' at all. If Hinrich were to get hurt, good small guards would just tear us up at will.



I do, I think thats exactly what they are planning to do. The whole problem with the Bulls backcourt is we lack an atheletic player with some height who can defend and slash and get to the basket. Thabo can do all of that and he also can play the point. His natural position is more of a 2 guard and Pax said they threw him out in the Summer league at the point to "see what he could do" I think they already have a pretty good idea and part of that includes running the point. They want to use him as the third guard to back up Hinrich and Gordon both, they couldn't really do that with Duhon because he is strictly a pg and lacks the height the team needs in the backcourt. Pax does his homework and I am pretty sure thats the role he envisioned for Thabo when he drafted him. And of course, if Thabo is backing up Gordon & Hinrich where does that leave Duhon? As a 4th and largely unneccessary guard. Thabo has played pretty well overseas, he is still young and not uber established but he has proven himself I think, true he will have to do it all over again in the NBA but so did Nocioni and we see how that turned out. Besides, I would hardly call playing back up pg for what, 8 minutes a night? to be "everything". He would have to be pretty atrocious at it for it to be meaningful.

And don't get me wrong, I like Duhon, he is a good distributor, a good team leader, a good defender and definitley a vaulable player. In fact I think he probably would be better off starting somewhere else. Still, with Thabo now on the roster and the entrenchment of Gordon & Hinrich I think it is clear that Duhon's role has diminsihed. After all, they didn't go after Thabo just to have him warm a bench which is what he will be doing if Duhon is playing.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Well, I think that depends on whether you believe Thabo can run the point. All indications now seem to be that he can. A guy with his height would certainly pair well with Ben on the defensive end.


No, after seeing what I saw in summer league, I think Thabo CAN run the point. I think he'd be very good at it. A three man rotation of Gordon, Thabo, and Hinrich could be very good. I still think we could be one injury away from trouble at the pg position. If we take away an experienced point guard in Duhon, I'd like to add another pg who could take over in emergency situations. Perhaps Pargo or Miles.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Well, I think that depends on whether you believe Thabo can run the point. All indications now seem to be that he can. A guy with his height would certainly pair well with Ben on the defensive end.



yeah and I wouldn't mind bringing Miles or someone like him as another option at point if we need it...imjuries happen and matchups need to be addressed.


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## nanokooshball (Jan 22, 2005)

Is it possible just to trade Duhon and Sweetney for Gooden when he just accepts the QO?

It makes sense... the salaries would be within each other for a trade and we just use Gooden as a stop-gap until we can land our future C/PF in the draft next year?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

nanokooshball said:


> Is it possible just to trade Duhon and Sweetney for Gooden when he just accepts the QO?
> 
> It makes sense... the salaries would be within each other for a trade and we just use Gooden as a stop-gap until we can land our future C/PF in the draft next year?



If he was just going to play one year for the QO then I doubt Cleveland lets him go and I doubt the Bulls give up assetts to aquire a one year rent a player...oh wait...nevermind :biggrin:


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I'm torn on the Gooden issue. I think if a Gooden trade occurs, it depends on Pax and Skiles evaluation of Thabo being capable of playing major minutes for our team. His experience playing Euro ball will help compared to other rookies. But, he has yet to show what he can do in the NBA. 

In terms of Gooden, I've always been a fan. While he may be an underachiever b/c he has loads of talent, he is a capable PF. He would provide youth, great rebounding, and the ability to finish at the basket. He would be a fine compliment to Big Ben. I am unwilling to give him anything longer than 5 years. Ideally, I would prefer a 3-4 year deal. He would still get major minutes next year if PJ retires or chooses to go elsewhere. With the addition of Gooden, we are sure we want to win this year. 

I say we go for it. It does help Cleveland a lot by getting Duhon. But, if we are dedicated to Thabo, then we might as well get someone who can help us now and the next few years.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

B Wallace-32-PJ/Gooden 16
Gooden 24 -Noc 14 - Tyrus 10
Nocioni 18-Deng 30
Gordon 32-Thabo 16
Hinrich 32-Duhon 16

Thomas and Khryapa would lose out this season. Deng and Nocioni would be sqeezed at times, but they already have experienced that. Gooden would probably get sqeezed at time in the coming season as well, especially when the matchups present an opportunity for Noch to play PF, but he would give the team an added dimension and the team would go from being thin up front in terms of legit bigs.Like we've seen from Skiles even last year when the team was nowhere as deep, there are gonna be times where certain guys play a ton and others where they barely see the floor, but in the end, the minutes pretty much balance out. PJ would lose minutes, but I think saving him in the reguular season would be the best way to go anyway.

As long as Gooden can be signed to a reasonable, tradeable deal that can be consolidated at some later point along with others, or keep the years at about three, I think his addition would work out.


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## paxman (Apr 24, 2006)

kukoc4ever said:


> The time is now. Get it done. LeBron is going to get nothing except better.


LeBron is 29 years old.
the wrinkles on his face told me so.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> No, after seeing what I saw in summer league, I think Thabo CAN run the point. I think he'd be very good at it. A three man rotation of Gordon, Thabo, and Hinrich could be very good. I still think we could be one injury away from trouble at the pg position. If we take away an experienced point guard in Duhon, I'd like to add another pg who could take over in emergency situations. Perhaps Pargo or Miles.



Oh, I agree with this. I just don't think it should be hard to find an end-of-the-pine emergency guy, rather than someone with Duhon's pedigree.


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## madox (Jan 6, 2004)

This trade (Duhon+Sweetney) makes no sense financially, rotation-wise, or player development-wise. Deng or Noc would have to be traded right away and Tyrus would only get token minutes.

Noc was putting up around 17 pts, 9.5 rebs, 1 blk when he started at PF. The team was like 10-2. If Gooden has a soul which is debatable Noc eats it up with a soup spoon and then goes out back and howls like a savage at the moon.


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

madox said:


> This trade (Duhon+Sweetney) makes no sense financially, rotation-wise, or player development-wise. Deng or Noc would have to be traded right away and Tyrus would only get token minutes.
> 
> Noc was putting up around 17 pts, 9.5 rebs, 1 blk when he started at PF. The team was like 10-2. If Gooden has a soul which is debatable Noc eats it up with a soup spoon and then goes out back and howls like a savage at the moon.



yeah good point. Noc will be playing a lot of 4, with Sweets coming in when matchups call for it (or for Scoring Burst!!). with Wallace playing big minutes all year, there wont be that much room for all these bigs. Gooden aside, there's PJ and Tyrus' development.


also: if Gooden wasnt an unknown, he'd be getting his money from Cleveland.... instead he's getting ready for 83rd team in 4 years.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> OK, here's a couple questions on this deal:
> 
> First off, Hoopshype has Cleveland's salary at 49 million right now, without Shannon Brown. However, I believe from what I read in the **** FAQ that should you plan to use your exceptions (MLE, etc), they are added to your actual salary when calculating whether you are over the cap or not. As far as I can see, there is no reason to decline these exceptions if you're right up against the cap, as Cleveland is. Therefore, as far as I can tell, Cleveland is over the cap.
> 
> ...


I was also reading up on this. The Cavs ARE under the cap. Put simply, the rule is that if you're within the combined exceptions amount of the cap, you can either claim the exceptions or claim the cap space, but not both.



Larry **** the CBA Master said:


> If a team is below the cap, then their Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player exceptions are added to their team salary, and the league treats the team as though they are over the cap. This is to prevent a loophole, in a manner similar to free agent amounts (see question numbers 29, 30, 31, 32). A team can't act like they're under the cap and sign free agents using cap room, and then use their Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player exceptions. Consequently, the exceptions are added to their team salary (putting the team over the cap) if the team is under the cap and adding the exceptions puts them over the cap. If a team is already over the cap, then the exceptions are not added to their team salary. There would be no point in doing so, since there is no cap room for signing free agents.
> So it is not true that being under the cap necessarily means a team has room to sign free agents. For example, assume the cap is $49.5 million, and a team has $43 million committed to salaries. They also have a Mid-Level exception for $5 million and a Traded Player exception for $5.5 million. Even though their salaries put them $6.5 million under the cap, their exceptions are added to their salaries, putting them at $53.5 million, or $4 million over the cap. So they actually have no cap room to sign free agents, and must instead use their exceptions.
> 
> *Teams have the option of renouncing their exceptions in order to claim the cap room.* So in the example above, if the team renounced their Traded Player and Mid-Level exceptions, then the $10.5 million is taken off their team salary, which then totals $43 million, leaving them with $6.5 million of cap room which can then be used to sign free agent(s).
> ...


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Yah, but the Bulls become a better team and they are worse off by losing Gooden.
> 
> Its not *that* hard to find a decent backup PG.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't be surprised if Cleveland doesn't want to trade Gooden to a division rival. 

It's the same thing as Paxson not wanting to deal Chandler or Curry to a division rival. It hurts doubly much if a trade might possibly improve someone you're directly competing with in a division.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Phoenix just signed Marcus Banks, so they are probably in the running for Gooden now as well. If it comes down to Barbosa being offered vs. Duhon being offered, the Cavs are taking Barbosa without a second thought. 

An Amare/Gooden frontcourt with Gooden making only a little above the MLE, might be a good deal from the Suns perspective.


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## all_aus (Aug 28, 2005)

ide trade duhon and sweets for gooden for sure, gooden is much more productive than sweets and is taller and fitter. duhon is a good back up pg, we can get another back up pg, maybe not as good but back points can be found. griffing and pj will keep the ship tight not to mention big ben. as far as im concerned do it now.

you guys will love it onces its done, aka chandler.


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## paxman (Apr 24, 2006)

why not pj brown for gooden?

doesn't cleveland need major cap relief, as they
will be paying lebron 20 a year, hughes 15 a year,
zydrunas like 12 a year?


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

paxman said:


> why not pj brown for gooden?
> 
> doesn't cleveland need major cap relief, as they
> will be paying lebron 20 a year, hughes 15 a year,
> zydrunas like 12 a year?


No, they don't need cap relief right now. And Gilbert is loaded, loaded, loaded, loaded and has yet to discover he could lose a lot of money owning a basketball team.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

If its Duhon and sweetney we do it. 

But again, the poster that questioned the Chandler trade as a salary dump is correct. We sign trade for gooden, we will not care what the luxary tax is, so therefore, the chandler trade was because pax and skiles lost their confidence in tyson. 

I would love to have gooden on this team.


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## paxman (Apr 24, 2006)

narek said:


> No, they don't need cap relief right now. And Gilbert is loaded, loaded, loaded, loaded and has yet to discover he could lose a lot of money owning a basketball team.


well, i'm not talking about right now, but when PJ's contract goes off the 
books and lebron's extention kicks in.

but if your assessment of gilbert is true, then why lowball gooden?


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

paxman said:


> well, i'm not talking about right now, but when PJ's contract goes off the
> books and lebron's extention kicks in.
> 
> but if your assessment of gilbert is true, then why lowball gooden?


They aren't exactly low balling him - Gooden thinks he's worth more than he is. It's a difference of opinion between the Cavs and his agent Plus they've been lukewarm about him all season.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

paxman said:


> \
> 
> but if your assessment of gilbert is true, then why lowball gooden?


Because he's not that good?


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

ace20004u said:


> When was the last time you saw Gooden? I only ask because I used to really dislike him as a player but the last few times I watched him he seemed to really improve and his bball iq has grown some as well.


I saw him play in the playoffs against Detroit and some against the Wizards. Mike Brown cutting his minutes down to 20 per/game in the Pistons series has to raise some eyebrows. How can Gooden be considered the final piece of a championship team with the Bulls (paraphrasing some opinions here) when the coaching staff in Cleveland shows so little confidence in giving him playoff minutes (and most of those 20 mpg were in the first 3 quarters)?


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

I like Gooden but I don't want Drew if he requires a long term investment at 10 per. Next year's draft is loaded with big men, they just drafted Thomas and there are some very good big men next year that could be available. If the Bulls continue their success next year could they possibly tempt Dirk away from the Mavs, fall back Brezec?


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> If the Bulls continue their success next year could they possibly tempt Dirk away from the Mavs


He agreed to an extension earlier on, can only assume it's inked in already.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Showtyme said:


> I was also reading up on this. The Cavs ARE under the cap. Put simply, the rule is that if you're within the combined exceptions amount of the cap, you can either claim the exceptions or claim the cap space, but not both.


So wait, are you sure Cleveland declined their exceptions? I hadn't read this anywhere. I'm not sure why they would do that.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

L.O.B said:


> I like Gooden but I don't want Drew if he requires a long term investment at 10 per. Next year's draft is loaded with big men, they just drafted Thomas and there are some very good big men next year that could be available. If the Bulls continue their success next year could they possibly tempt Dirk away from the Mavs, fall back Brezec?


Who would we have to lose to make that happen though? Deng or Gordon, or BOTH?

G Hinrich
G Sefolosha
F Nocioni
F Nowitski / Thomas
C Wallace

= RING


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

Frankensteiner said:


> I saw him play in the playoffs against Detroit and some against the Wizards. Mike Brown cutting his minutes down to 20 per/game in the Pistons series has to raise some eyebrows. How can Gooden be considered the final piece of a championship team with the Bulls (paraphrasing some opinions here) when the coaching staff in Cleveland shows so little confidence in giving him playoff minutes (and most of those 20 mpg were in the first 3 quarters)?


That depends on whether or not you think that much of Cleveland's coaching staff, and if how much you count the fact that Cleveland had Z, Donyell, and Sideshow Bob splitting minutes with Gooden. We probably don't look to have that kind of big man depth this year, dpending on whether or not you think Noch is a legit full time 4(I personally think his effectiveness at that spot varies with matchups) and you're opinion on the reaidness of Thomas.


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## Chi-Town Bovine (Jan 9, 2006)

Gooden was averaging 10.7 ppg and 8.40 rpg in 27.5 min last season. If he is on a team where for the most part all of the offense is not run through one guy (Im sure there is no need to mention names) and is playing in a front court where most of the offense (front court offense) will be going through him, given say 30 min what could he average for us 15 and 10, 16 and 12 regardless it will be a lot better than what Chandler, Sweetney or Brown would give us. P.J. would be a great back-up to Big Ben and 18 min per game would be enough for TT to begin to develop. So I would absolutly do this deal. Now Duhon and Sweets contracts add up to about 5.5 mil. roughly, would we have enough cap to make it work?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

yodurk said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if Cleveland doesn't want to trade Gooden to a division rival.
> 
> It's the same thing as Paxson not wanting to deal Chandler or Curry to a division rival. It hurts doubly much if a trade might possibly improve someone you're directly competing with in a division.


Just for argument's sake, if you think the player you're trading away isn't good, isn't that a reason to trade him to a division rival? Let them overestimate on a guy and have to deal with the consequences?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Babble-On said:


> That depends on whether or not you think that much of Cleveland's coaching staff, and if how much you count the fact that Cleveland had Z, Donyell, and Sideshow Bob splitting minutes with Gooden. We probably don't look to have that kind of big man depth this year, dpending on whether or not you think Noch is a legit full time 4(I personally think his effectiveness at that spot varies with matchups) and you're opinion on the reaidness of Thomas.


That's what I think too.

Add to it that I'm not sold on the long-term compatibility of having Thomas, Noc, and Deng all together. They can all play the four in certain matchups, but unfortunately they all seem to be about the same matchups. I actually think Deng is the most likely to really be able to play the four day in and day out (based on his current size, the fact he was mostly a PF at Duke, and my impression that he can add another 10-15lbs of muscle to his frame, get above average strong for a PF, and not really lose much from the rest of his game.

I'm not too sure Thomas should be asked to do that. Given his apparent body type and special physical attributes, I would take every reasonable step possible to protect him from losing it due to unnecessary bulk or injury. I'd rather pair him up with a stronger guy than ask him to change.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

MikeDC said:


> Just for argument's sake, if you think the player you're trading away isn't good, isn't that a reason to trade him to a division rival? Let them overestimate on a guy and have to deal with the consequences?


Yeah, we did just that to a conference rival, Knicks. Well, we did it twice already. :biggrin:


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

Chi-Town Bovine said:


> Gooden was averaging 10.7 ppg and 8.40 rpg in 27.5 min last season. If he is on a team where for the most part all of the offense is not run through one guy (Im sure there is no need to mention names) and is playing in a front court where most of the offense (front court offense) will be going through him, given say 30 min what could he average for us 15 and 10, 16 and 12 regardless it will be a lot better than what Chandler, Sweetney or Brown would give us. P.J. would be a great back-up to Big Ben and 18 min per game would be enough for TT to begin to develop. So I would absolutly do this deal. Now Duhon and Sweets contracts add up to about 5.5 mil. roughly, would we have enough cap to make it work?


We don't have cap left, and Gooden wants more than 5.5.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

L.O.B said:


> I like Gooden but I don't want Drew if he requires a long term investment at 10 per. Next year's draft is loaded with big men, they just drafted Thomas and there are some very good big men next year that could be available. If the Bulls continue their success next year could they possibly tempt Dirk away from the Mavs, fall back Brezec?



Yeah personally I thought that was a big mistake by Mike Brown. Everytime I saw Gooden in the playoffs he was playing good, smart, hard nosed basketball. I remember one play I saw him post up but the pg couldn't get him the ball so he comes out and sets the screen for him immediately and the pg frees up and drives but then has to pull it back out, Gooden reposts and gets fed the ball, he backs it in and takes it up with a really nice form, unfortunately he misses but I hear him call out "short" and his teamate almost gets the rebound. The previous play defensively he had contained Rasheed Wallace in the post defensively. He looked very good to me. Why Brown prefered to play Arujo who didn't look so good I have no idea.


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## madox (Jan 6, 2004)

Duhon+Sweetney for Gooden will never happen. It's too obvious to even remark any further.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

narek said:


> We don't have cap left, and Gooden wants more than 5.5.


S&T


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

DaBullz said:


> S&T


But Sweetney and Duhon's salaries would have to be higher to get Gooden what he wants in salary. 

I can't find what Gooden is asking for, but I checked an old Windhorst column on the issue:



> Unless he signs a strange offer sheet (i.e. Carlos Boozer's descending salary deal with the Jazz) I expect the Cavs to match any reasonable contract for Drew Gooden. They really like his work ethic and love their depth in the frontcourt. I think they also have a feeling that Gooden is headed for a long career and they could always trade him if they wanted to down the line. A fair sign-and-trade deal isn't out of the question, but again it will take a legit player(s) in return not cap relief or prospects. I pretty much invented the Jamaal Magloire-Gooden trade talk going around the NBA because Milwaukee GM Larry Harris wants an athletic power forward to play next to Andrew Bogut and wants to move Mags. It just made sense to me, so I threw it out there and others have been picking it up.


 That's from May: http://blogs.ohio.com/cavaliers_blog/2006/06/index.html

So Cleveland wants him, but they think his salary demands are too high.

And as a side note - the TJ Ford/Villaneuva trade came about after Harris offered Magloire to Toronto.
Toronto passed on that.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

narek said:


> But Sweetney and Duhon's salaries would have to be higher to get Gooden what he wants in salary.
> 
> I can't find what Gooden is asking for, but I checked an old Windhorst column on the issue:
> 
> ...


I'm not sure how the CBA works when one team is under the cap and the other is over and the deal would put both over.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Someone posted in another forum that if we took back Stephen Graham in this proposed deal we could offer Gooden a 6.6 per salary and the trade works...


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