# knick assassins



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

LOL..saw this in another Knick forum from another poster

Knick Killers  

a)Reggie Miller

bTim Hardaway

c)Michael Jordan

d)Scott Layden

anyone care to cast a vote??


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## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

Knicks4life board I presume? I'm there too as RepGreek, my ESPN account board account name. And I'd go with c unfortunately but d would be a very close 2nd.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Yeah C is my vote as well..its close between a and d


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

Prolly C...but then again you can call him the NBA killer, he's murdered countless teams.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Just for the record...I'd like to know just how many of Laydens decisions were based on pressure from the Dolan before I condemn him. The real boners in my mind are Eisley(contract), and Anderson(contract). I think Clarence was a knee jerk reaction to a need for a rebounding front court guy. They tried for Grant, Fortson and Webber(how much, we just don't know) and HAD to sign someone. Obviously Houston was way overvalued but at whose orders? If all these were his, then I am unhappy with him. I still like Vujanic as a 2nd rounder, Sweetney and Lampe this year. Doleac was a good signing. Mutombo? Who knows? Williams might have been a reach, we'll see(it's that potential thing). Spree for VH I liked and so did most of you after he was here and playing well. Camby for McD I did not like because of the lost #7..I wanted to rebuild. All in all, I bet what he did on his own would problably grade a "c" if all the facts were known.


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## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

Dolan knew nothing about basketball and after Checketts was gone, it was all Layden, and no moves were forced upon him.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

and after layden was gone,he still knows nothing about basketball


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Dolan knew nothing about basketball and after Checketts was gone, it was all Layden, and no moves were forced upon him.


Yeah, Dolan has absolutely nothing to do with the Sprewell trade.



> Prolly C...but then again you can call him the NBA killer, he's murdered countless teams.


However, Jordan faced the Knicks in the playoffs more than any other opponent.

Reggie Miller isn't really a Knick killer, because he didn't always kill the Knicks. I think the Pacers got swept in a 1st round series to NY in the early 90s. Reggie's 94 game 5 is the stuff of legend, but the Knicks won that series with clutch performances by Starks in game 6, and Ewing in game 7. 1995 came down to Ewing missing a layup (although he traveled on the play, just he like he traveled TWICE in one possession in game 5 on the game winner). Then the next time the Knicks faced Indiana was when they were an 8th seed. Then they lost to Indiana in the Conference Finals the following year (most notably, with Jalen Rose starting, not Chris Mullin). He might have had a couple individual games where he couldn't miss, but he couldn't beat the Knicks on his own.


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## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> Just for the record...I'd like to know just how many of Laydens decisions were based on pressure from the Dolan before I condemn him. The real boners in my mind are Eisley(contract), and Anderson(contract). I think Clarence was a knee jerk reaction to a need for a rebounding front court guy. They tried for Grant, Fortson and Webber(how much, we just don't know) and HAD to sign someone. Obviously Houston was way overvalued but at whose orders? If all these were his, then I am unhappy with him. I still like Vujanic as a 2nd rounder, Sweetney and Lampe this year. Doleac was a good signing. Mutombo? Who knows? Williams might have been a reach, we'll see(it's that potential thing). Spree for VH I liked and so did most of you after he was here and playing well. Camby for McD I did not like because of the lost #7..I wanted to rebuild. All in all, I bet what he did on his own would problably grade a "c" if all the facts were known.


 I think C would be a pretty high grade for him. Layden did have some nice decisions, Sweetney is the one I like the most. Spree for KVH was decent I guess. But Layden's blunders overweight his good moves a lot. Face it, it is pretty hard to be a GM of a team for 4 years and not make at least one decent move. 

Oh have you heard? Vujanic is quoted to say that he wants to stay in Europe another year. Is it credible? Up to you. That is why I'm not that high on the Vujanic pick. Vujanic is a nice talent I guess, but frankly, I am unwilling to call him a good move when he hasn't evenplayed in the NBA yet. We will have to wait and see.

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86968&forumid=8

Layden's blunders have really cost us. I agree that Clarence was probably a knee-jeck reactio because they couldn't get the PFs they wanted, but the truth is that Laydn made the move, probably out of panic. Anderson and Eisley's contracts were just bad man. Houston was way over-priced. And people who say Dolan forced the overpaying of Houston, answer this question for me. I take it that Dolan, as most owners in sports, wants to earn money. So why would an owner force his GM to overpay of over 20 million to sign a player? Hometown teams usually get discounts too. I just don't get why Dolan would force Layden to sign Houston for 100 million when the second best offer was like 70 some million. I don't htink Dolec was that good a signing either. Why pay so much (relatively) for a player that you barely play?


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Lets remember something about Vujanic, OK? The guy was a SECOND round pick...there was no downside because the guy has talent.How many second rounders are just throw-aways? Solid pick no matter how you slice it. Doleac was a good backup who wasn't much overpaid, if at all and his next contract will prove that. Houston's contract was a disaster but 'spoon's was more about trying to save face and make the playoffs. Anderson and Eisley, while overpaid, have really played far worse than any of us envisioned. Personally, I loved the VH trade...we got size, perimeter shooting, and rebounding from the sf. I would have also endorsed a TT for Spree trade. I think 'C' is fair.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

I also have a feeling that Dolan had much to do with H2o's 100 million deal. I have to believe that Layden would have been summarily fired after Dolan found out he overpaid by 30 million if it wasn't he who set it up to make sure we didn't lose face by a Houston departure.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Hiring a C GM was not a good idea for a C team heading south. Knicks were already on the old ans slow side. They got older and slower under Layden.

Here was the starting roster he inherited, (I'll assume the Ewing trade was not his), which in 2000-01 went 48-34, coming off of a trip to the finals.: 

Camby, Center 
LJ, PF 
Sprewell, SF 
Houston, SG 
Ward, PG 

The significant reserves were: 
Mark Jackson 
Glenn Rice 
KT 

When he left:

Motumbo 
KT 
VH 
Houston 
Eisley 

Reserves:
Ward 
Anderson 
Spoon 

That team was around .350 when he left (or there abouts if I remember correctly) after two years in the lottery. 

So four years later, where are the significant upgrades?

Let's break down some of his moves. I'll assign a them as Plus neutral or minus. Tell me which assignments you take issue with.

Plus:
Doleac
Mutombo (a gift from NJ)
Lampe (he's a prospect, might be a bust, could have put him as neutral, but a good pick for his draft position)

Neutral:
Spree for VH (picked up some rebounds at the expense of defense, athleticism and passion)
Camby+Nene for MCDyess+Williams (horrible in hindsight, but worth a try)
Sweetney (nice player, what do you expect for a lottery pick)
Vujanic (may be good, may never play in NBA. second round picks are throw aways, so no real loss, but he threw himself away)

Minus:
Spoon (overpaid)
Eisley (overpaid, sucks)
Anderson (overpaid, sucks. There's no way in hell Dolan forced Layden's hand to bring his expensive bench over from Utah (or where they were at the time.)
Houston (overpaid, contract too long, paid like a franchise player, but he's not.)
Othella (gave up a first round pick)
Jackson (practically retired, gave up a first round pick)
Added no players with substance, grit and fire. No leadership.

What's an average grade for a GM? 'C'? When in 4 years your two best deals where for an old gift, a backup, and a project, that's got to be below average.

Layden's legacy in the league (NY+Utah) is that he's a good scout but an overly conservative GM. He prefers nice guys who give no trouble, but who also give little spunk or leadership. His best asset is his loyalty, but when a franchise is stuck on the rocks that can be his worst asset too.

Can we just agree that the Layden/Dolan combo was like the blind leading the blind? If Dolan hasn't a clue than he needs a straight talker to put him right. To say all of Layden's moves were initiated by Dolan gives Dolan credit for Layden's few good moves too. However you want to slice it that was a bad era for the Knicks and Layden did little to nothing to better them.


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## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> I also have a feeling that Dolan had much to do with H2o's 100 million deal. I have to believe that Layden would have been summarily fired after Dolan found out he overpaid by 30 million if it wasn't he who set it up to make sure we didn't lose face by a Houston departure.


I still find it hard to believe that Dolan would overpay by 20-30 million just to keep Houston. Owners always want to earn more money, so I don't think it makes sense that he would throw that much money away. Houston would have probably signed for 75 million, why offer him 100? I think the next best offer was around 72 million. It just seems really strange to me that an owner would willing overpay by at least 25 million. 

Also, nice analysis Oakley. I agree with you on most of the grades you gave the transections. Personally, I would have rated Mutumbo and Dolec as neutral and Sweetney as a good move. Mutumbo is really old and not that productive anymore. He played pretty well at the begining of the season but where is he now? Don't tell me it is because of Nazr, if Mutumbo was that good he would be playing now. Mutumbo is a liabilty in the offensive game. I liked him a few years ago because of his tough D, but when I saw him fumble all of those passes with his POOR hands during the 2000 NBA Finals, I lost faith in that guy. I'm not that high on Dolec like some of you. He really didn't play that often to warrent his contract IMO. I forgot the exact amount, but if it is high enough to get Nazr back, who earns 5 million, I think it is too much. I agree with you that the Spoon was to save face, but face it, it was a terrible contract. Sppon was way overpaid, especially considering that the Knicks rarely played him too. Vujanic may have been a second-round pick, but he isn't here yet. How talented is he?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Jackson (practically retired, gave up a first round pick)


Was viewed as an upgrade over Chris Childs. The Knicks needed a boost because they were only a 4th seed that year, and Jackson was statistically the best PG they had since well, Jackson himself.

And Jackson was essentially traded for Frank Williams, so they got a first rounder back for him.



> Othella (gave up a first round pick)


Gave up a first pick named Donnell Harvey. Harrington was starting last year, and is an effective bench player, while Harvey is still struggling to crack the rotation full-time on bad teams like Denver, Orlando, and Phoenix. He's got Darvin Ham written all over him. Not really a minus.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

You want these in the plus column?



> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> Was viewed as an upgrade over Chris Childs. The Knicks needed a boost because they were only a 4th seed that year, and Jackson was statistically the best PG they had since well, Jackson himself.


Jackson was almost worthless here and was no upgrade from Childs. Childs for Jackson straight up would have been lateral, but to add a first round pick was to "throw away our future".

And if that was such a good move why did he have to take on Eisley?



> And Jackson was essentially traded for Frank Williams, so they got a first rounder back for him.


That's how you look at it? I always looked at it as though we traded Nene for Williams, otherwise it hurts too much.



> Gave up a first pick named Donnell Harvey. Harrington was starting last year, and is an effective bench player, while Harvey is still struggling to crack the rotation full-time on bad teams like Denver, Orlando, and Phoenix. He's got Darvin Ham written all over him. Not really a minus.


Shhh, don't make him sound tooo bad, he was Layden's first round pick. He was then, along with John Wallace, traded for Eric Strickland (not a great trade), who was then packaged WITH a first AND second round pick for Othella (Yikes). So looking at it your way, he actually gave up TWO first round picks and a second for Othella. (Further trading away our future.)

And if Othella was such a good pickup why did they then need to add Spoon's big contract?

He gave up our two 2001 first round picks and second for backups Jackson and Othella.

This was what we hated, his stockpiling of redundant mediocrity.

I'd also like to add to his negative column the signing and extensions to Chaney, and not filing the paperwork on time to get exemptions from the ritiring of Longly and LJ. That's why we had to start Othella, cause we had no center (yes, even with the mighty Doleac) and needed to start KT there.

Just curious Rashidi, what score would you give Layden's 4+ years?

Just for comparative example, and I don't have his resume available, let's look at Grunfelds 4 years preceeding Layden (some may have been more than 4 years prior, not sure, but still...) What type of players did he bring in?

Camby
KT
LJ
Sprewell
Houston
Herb Williams

See other GMs get players, starters, all-stars, leaders. Layden was just rearranging his deck chairs.

So who's team after four years work would win if Grunfeld's team, above, played Layden's team, below?

Doleac
Spoon
Thella
Anderson
Eisley
Jackson


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> Here was the starting roster he inherited, (I'll assume the Ewing trade was not his), which in 2000-01 went 48-34, coming off of a trip to the finals.:


I need to make one minor correction. The team he inherited went 50-32 in his first season, 1999-00. So in two years he drove a 50-32 team into a 30-52 team and into the lottery. It's rather astonishing, really.


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## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

Nice posts Oakley. I especially agree with you that we didn't really trade Jackson for Williams. Jackson was a throw in to balance salary. The Nuggets didn't even want him and waived him right after I think. The trade was really Camby and #7 for McDyess and #25.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> I need to make one minor correction. The team he inherited went 50-32 in his first season, 1999-00.


The team he inherited in 99-00 had Ewing, a player he was forced into trading. The 00-01 team did not have Ewing, it had a one legged Glen Rice. The 01-02 team missed the playoffs because Camby missed 53 games. The 02-03 team missed the playoffs because McDyess missed the season.



> Jackson was almost worthless here and was no upgrade from Childs. Childs for Jackson straight up would have been lateral, but to add a first round pick was to "throw away our future".


Mark Jackson 00-01
7.6 ppg
3.7 rpg
8.0 apg
31.2 mpg
13.90 eff

Chris Childs 00-01
4.7 ppg
2.6 rpg
4.6 apg
24.1 mpg
7.32 eff

Like I said, Jackson was "statistically" better than Childs. Childs was a better defender though. Jackson was easily the best passer on the team since Jackson, something the team wanted/needed. Jackson threw many alley oops to Camby (when Camby was actually on the court) and was definitely an upgrade over Childs offensively, because unlike Childs he could actually run the offense. Childs would often throw the ball away, and while he had his 4th quarter moments, he had an equal amount of 4th quarter blunders. He wasn't afraid of taking the big shot at the end of the game. Sometimes he hit it, a lot of times he airballed it. And turning the ball over out of bounds with a minute left seemed to be his forte. Make no mistake, Jackson WAS an upgrade over Childs. A significant upgrade? No, but an upgrade nonetheless. Would the Knicks have been able to beat the Raptors if they had Jackson probably would have set Vince Carter up for easier shots. Nobody on the Raptors could do that (Childs was bad at it, and Alvin Williams was an undersized SG pretending to be a PG). Childs did hit the big shot against the Knicks, but Mark Jackson hit plenty of big shots against the Knicks too. In the end, it didn't affect anything, *but had Camby's family not been held hostage during the playoff series* then the Knicks more than likely advance, and it never comes down to Childs hitting a dagger against his former team.

Please do not confuse the Knick fall with Layden's so-called folly. They didn't miss the playoffs in 01-02 because he traded Rice for Anderson/Eisley, they missed the playoffs because Camby played 29 games.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

The reason the Knicks fell so short under those circumstances is that they were shorthanded on talent. In prior years Houston broke his wrist and then Ewing did. Their two main scorers. It never sent them to the lottery.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

And Mark Jackson as a Knick that year was 5.9ppg 5.6apg, in his greater minutes than Childs. A very minor upgrade in offense with a major downgrade in defense. Basically lateral. And he was 35 years old.

Not worth a #1 pick. Not on an over the hill club, with an injured and injury prone Camby, an old and injured Rice, and an injured and soon to retire LJ.

Why is this hard for you to admit? That was bad, bad, bad. You're a smart guy, why do you ruin what could be a fine reputation by defending this bunk?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> They didn't miss the playoffs in 01-02 because he traded Rice for Anderson/Eisley, they missed the playoffs because Camby played 29 games.





> The 02-03 team missed the playoffs because McDyess missed the season.





> The 00-01 team did not have Ewing, it had a one legged Glen Rice


Are you noticing a pattern????

Assuming you are correct and we or YOU blame laydens follies on injuries,dont you think Layden would have learned by 2002 not to trade for a guy with SERIOUS knee problems????

That is 101% stupidity


And if you are in the business of coming up with medical excuses,why do you COMPLETELY overlook our leading scorer H20 not playing this year and give credit to Isiah for very possibly getting us into the playoffs???

And please dont come up with the excuse that the knicks arent reliant on H20 with thje acquisition of marbury...


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Why is this hard for you to admit? That was bad, bad, bad. You're a smart guy, why do you ruin what could be a fine reputation by defending this bunk?


exactly...you wrote previosly that i think your posts are garbage,and i told you that was not at all true...but when you get emotional,you do present irrational arguments....

A number 1 pick for Marc Jackson???

Rashidi,go splash some cold water on your face


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

When did Houston break his wrist? He has hardly missed a game in his career until this season. Prior to this year he only missed 10 games as a Knick in 7 seasons.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> When did Houston break his wrist? He has hardly missed a game in his career until this season. Prior to this year he only missed 10 games as a Knick in 7 seasons.


Apparently not broken but perhaps as bad. I remembered Ewing taking courage in his wrist recovery from Houston.

A pro Houston article, but doesn't gloss over his shortcomings over the years:

http://nykfanpage.com/roster/allan_houston.php

"Houston underwent surgery on June 2, 1997 to repair partially torn ligaments in his right wrist. The wrist was still sore when training camp began – so much so that he couldn’t even shoot from three-point range. Even so, Houston refused to miss any games. Despite being seen as a soft player by many fans and critics over the years, Houston only missed 10 games in his seven seasons with the Knicks.

"Had I had a couple more months, I might have gained a lot of flexibility, but it was my second year in New York and I didn't want to sit out," Houston said. "I felt like I still had a lot to prove. I had to push it and play through the loss of range of motion and a little bit of pain."

Even now, Houston's range of motion in the wrist is only about 70 percent of what it was. "My game changed," he said. "I just remember when my wrist would go all the way down. My shot looked better then. But it doesn't matter how it looks, really."


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

I do remember that. I also remember that the injury hardly affected Houston once the NBA season began. It certainly affected him more in the previous season, where he was only 4th on the team in scoring and shot 42%, and shot only .385 (down from .427) on 3's in the era where everyone was knocking them down thanks to the short line. It did affect the number of threes that Houston took, he made a career low 82 in 97-98, probably due to him not being able to hit them early in the year due to the surgery.

But clearly he was well enough to play through it, and his scoring average went up 4 points although somewhat due to Ewing missing 56 games. But let's get to the real point.

What you seem to miss is that the Knicks were a 57 win team the year before, and a 43 win team in 97-98 because of Ewing's injury. *They won 14 fewer games.* In 00-01 the Knicks won 43 games. In 01-02 the Knicks won 30 games due to Camby's injuries. *That's a 13 game difference*, and I think it's fair to say that Ewing in 1997 was about as good as Camby was in 2000.

So please, remind me again how injuries were not the cause of the knicks missing the playoffs the last two years? Don't forget that Larry Johnson AND Luc Longley retired due to, you guessed it, INJURIES during 01-02. Larry Johnson was a big part of why the Knicks were winners in the late Ewing era.

And Luc Longley... well let's just say that Longley would have been a much better option than *Felton Spencer*. If you remember, Spencer was the starting center for awhile when Camby went down, before KT took over the position. But don't worry, that's Layden's fault too. Let's face it, the real reason the Knicks have not made the playoffs is because Layden brought in durable players like Weatherspoon, Anderson, and Eisley to replace LJ and Rice.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I already posted why the Knicks sucked under Layden, because he replaced starters with bench folk.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

?

What was he supposed to do, pull them out of thin air?

He traded Rice, a bench player, for 2 bench players.
He traded Childs, a bench player, for a starting PG.
He signed Weatherspoon, to replace the retiring LJ, and was just as effective as 33 year old LJ would have been. Back then, no starter took the MLE.
He traded Camby, an injury prone starter, for McDyess, an injured all-star.
He traded Sprewell, a SG playing out of position, for a SF that filled out the team's biggest weakness (rebounding)
Oh, and let's not forget Harrington, Doleac, Sweetney, and Lampe.

Other than the Ewing trade, how many other times was a starter dumped for a backup? Actually, he got about 7 backups in the trade, 2 of whom had their careers ruined by injury. What more was he supposed to do? You can't sign stars when you're capped out beyond repair, and the original trade was at least Baker/Rice. And Mutombo was supposed to be on his way before Falk had a change of heart. Was he a backup too?

What has Isiah done? He traded future prospects for a "superstar" PG that can't even get it done against Zoran Planinic. Oh, and he traded Weatherspoon for another backup. And he traded a starting SF and backup C for another starting SF and backup C. Oh, and he brought in a 12 million dollar backup, the only SG in the league overpaid more than Allan Houston. 

Oh, but our hopes do ride on the shoulders of a charitable, angelic, Keith Van Hornish superstar, who absolutely loves NY, and could not be giddier about giving up the chance to contend for a championship in his hometown for lots of money than to sign with a city that he again, absolutely loves, just for the chance to contend for the eastern conference 4th seed and being known as the immortal that played next to our "superstar" PG. All this for the low price of 4.5 million dollars. Who could refuse that sales pitch? But anyway...

Honestly, what would/could you have done Mr. Smartypants? The team already was locked into a starting nucleus with long term contracts when Layden hit the scene. Camby/Thomas/Spree/Houston/BackupPG. Layden turned it into McDyess/Thomas/VH/Houston/BackupPG. How exactly is that a downgrade? The depth on the bench was the strong suit of the team, in case you didn't notice when the Knicks overachieved to 37 wins last year. They did that without McDyess the whole year, (compared to Camby for 25 games the year before) and won more games than they did the year before. If you think the contributions from Spoon/Harrington/Anderson/Eisley/Doleac/Ward had nothing to do with last year's success, you're out of your mind. 

Don't forget that the Knicks are currently tied for the 7th and 8th seed with Boston, and that when Chaney was fired the Knicks were only 2 and a half games out of the 8th slot, having finished playing most of their tough opponents. The Knicks have one quality win since then, against the Pacers last month, and couldn't even win a game against Lucious Harris, Jason Collins, Zoran Planinic, Aaron Williams, Kerry Kittles, and Richard Jefferson. Not only could they not win the game against this rag tag team of guys who look a lot like last year's Knick bench, but they were blown out by 25. (speaking of which, when's the last time the Knicks even blew out an opponent?) 

Oh wait, let me guess, if Allan Houston were healthy we would have won, right?


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Oh wait, let me guess, if Allan Houston were healthy we would have won, right?


HELLLLLL NO! Our D was just ATROCIOUS. Seems like we caught Dallas syndrome. My diagnosis? Fire Lenny Wilkens.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Dallas syndrome?

Huh?

The Knicks traded Dirk Jr.
The Knicks don't have a shot blocking presence.
The Knicks don't have a floor general like Steve Nash.
The Knicks don't have 4 all-stars, unless you count Penny and Baker.
The Knicks don't average 90 ppg, much less 100 ppg.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

What I meant was making no effort to play defense at all. Learn to read between the lines. Hell, you could stand just learning how to read.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> ?
> 
> What was he supposed to do, pull them out of thin air?


You just want to argue the same points over and over. Just scroll back in this thread and you'll see I've said all I need to say on the matter. Just treading water on a teram that is aging and losing it's stars doesn't work. Replacing LJ with Spoon, after you just overpaid for Harrington with youth, is dumb. Trading youth for ANOTHER backup PG is dumb. Trading Rice for more backup crpola is dumb instead of picks or youth is dumb. Not filing for medical retirement exemption money is dumb. 

I've asked you many times to list the moves you like but you decline, you infer it was all checkets or Dolan and Layden just scrtatched his tush all day. Wow. I showed you what his predecessor did in the four years prior. Nothing covinces you, or quells your need to argue over it. What more can I do?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Dallas syndrome?


yes,we looked like Dallas,no interior D.NONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



> The Knicks don't have a shot blocking presence.


I think we do rashidi..Wouldnt you call Deke a shot blocker????

He is injured as well as demoted..I hope Wilkens can see we deparately need him against a team like the Nets.It was #$%%^ layup practice


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> What was he supposed to do, pull them out of thin air?


Rashidi,there are other options than ,making bad decisions...

I have sat out of this discussion because its apparent you will argue things to death while the facts are right before your very eyes....

What you fail to realise is most of the people you debate with arent IT fans..They merely say,lets give him a chance..Layden had 3 years to turn the franchise into a disaster..And he did it...For whatever the reasons,the Knicks were playing .375 ball under Layden...Not exactly the kind of performance you would expect with that kind of payroll.

IT's moves will hopefully get us into the playoffs..Its a step in the right direction...If not IT will be judged very harshly,as he should..But he had less than a year to turn around a very ugly franchise that had Laydens fingerprints all over it....

Layden had a fair chance and failed..Its no big deal..You make it a big deal..The guy did not get the job done,and in corporate America,that makes you a dinosaur...We all know this team should have been dismantled...H20's crazy signing and the gamble of McDyss were the nails in the coffin..Layden or Dolan refused to accept it,and we will pay for it dearly

You constantly say blind people can evaluate players..I would assume then you should be able to evaluate laydens performance without making excuses


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Replacing LJ with Spoon, after you just overpaid for Harrington with youth, is dumb. Trading youth for ANOTHER backup PG is dumb. Trading Rice for more backup crpola is dumb instead of picks or youth is dumb.


The Knicks didn't overpay for Harrington. Donnell Harvey sucks.

And how would the Knicks have traded Rice for picks or youth? He had a 4 year contract. What GM in the league would have given picks or youth for Rice? Hmm? Please inform us of your inside scoop.

They DID get younger by trading Rice. Anderson and Eisley were both under 30.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Donnell Harvey sucks.


who drafted Harvey??grunfeld or layden??i honestly dont know..



> They DID get younger by trading Rice. Anderson and Eisley were both under 30.


Rashidi,no offense,but Shandon Anderson is terrible...its like playinf 4 on 5 on offense when he in the game..

And i know you like Eisly,but he is really at best a backup point guard...

you do realise when you come up with a statement like the one above,you look a bit silly and posters are going to jump you..You bash TT and accept Eisly and Anderson??Its very very strange


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> The Knicks didn't overpay for Harrington. Donnell Harvey sucks.


You can thank layden for picking him. You don't read my posts do you? I already illustrated that harvey plus a first and second round pick were traded for Harrington.

Why do I bother?



> And how would the Knicks have traded Rice for picks or youth? He had a 4 year contract. What GM in the league would have given picks or youth for Rice? Hmm? Please inform us of your inside scoop.


Layden would have, like he did for Jackson and Harrington.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Donnell Harvey sucks.


So let me see if i get this straight..layden drafts Harvey and Rashid agrees he sucks???

is he defending or panning layden??



> They DID get younger by trading Rice. Anderson and Eisley were both under 30.


Rashidi,can you just drop this???

We were a .375 team,with a pf with one leg,a 47 y.o center,a one legged 100 million dollar SG and two point point guards who couldnt start in the Macdonalds all star game....

Please,you like layden,its your perrogative...Go fight with Dolan,hes the one who didnt like him..The rest of us are hoping we squeak into the playoffs


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Rashidi,can you just drop this???


Funny, I don't recall talking to you.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

rashigeek,thats because your brain is fried from staring at computers all day


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Um, you're in your late 30s to early 40s, and you just called me a geek...

Nothing is wrong with this picture. As you were...


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