# OT: Nuggets/Knicks fight



## eymang (Dec 15, 2006)

Just saw part of it on ESPNEWS, don't have any details yet. JR Smith and Carmello and Nate Robinson/Mardy Collins involved. Yeah it's the Knicks, but I really hate Denver, a bunch of *****es on that team


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## eymang (Dec 15, 2006)

10 ejected

From what I saw, JR Smith on the breakaway, Mardy Collins with a hard foul (by the neck), JR Smith takes offense, Nate Robinson gets involved and those 2 go to the ground. Things look like they clear up, but then Carmello punches Mardy Collins.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

"I want AI!"

*"NO I WANT AI!"*



Slap fight ensues.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

eymang said:


> 10 ejected
> 
> From what I saw, JR Smith on the breakaway, Mardy Collins with a hard foul (by the neck), JR Smith takes offense, Nate Robinson gets involved and those 2 go to the ground. Things look like they clear up, but then Carmello punches Mardy Collins.


What! Are you kidding? I watched the first 3 quarters of that game. Man. Missed it. Gotta go check it out on NBA League Pass Broadband which saves games.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

eymang said:


> 10 ejected
> 
> From what I saw, JR Smith on the breakaway, Mardy Collins with a hard foul (by the neck), JR Smith takes offense, Nate Robinson gets involved and those 2 go to the ground. Things look like they clear up, but then Carmello punches Mardy Collins.


Nice recap. Gotta check that out on the highlights. 

:laugh:


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

It was pure bedlam, with a lot of suspensions to follow.

It will be interesting to see how this affects the potential trade of AI to Denver.

Denver may not do it if they lose Melo and Smith for 30+ games.

No room for it.

I saw IT basically say that it was pride and that the Nuggz were showboating at the end and it was offensive. Nice.

hey, this may help actually help the Kni9cks - rallying cry without losing any key guys.

Strange situation...........


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

SALO said:


> Nice recap. Gotta check that out on the highlights.
> 
> :laugh:


Saw the highlights.

Collins with a completely thug foul, although he seemed like he tried to apologize. Robinson was way over the line really. He should have let J.R. Smith and Collins deal with it themselves.

For the start I blame the following:

25% Collins for thug foul
65% Robinson for getting his little hyperactive a$$ in the mix and for rolling into the stands...idiot.
10% JR Smith for reacting...but how can you blame him really? And then brawling into the stands.

The later stuff, it's just a free for all. I don't blame Carmelo really for knocking the crap outta Collins, although I would aimed for Robinson.

To me this is Carmelo becoming the man, leader of his team. I don't see any problem with it and his reaction. No worse than the Knicks of the 1990's.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

chifaninca said:


> It was pure bedlam, with a lot of suspensions to follow.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how this affects the potential trade of AI to Denver.
> 
> ...


30 games suspensions!? No way. On the court fight, there is plenty of precendence for this. JR Smith maybe 3 games. Carmelo maybe 5 games. Nate Robinson maybe 30 games for forcing JR Smith into the crowd.


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## charlietyra (Dec 1, 2002)

chifaninca said:



> It was pure bedlam, with a lot of suspensions to follow.
> 
> It will be interesting to see how this affects the potential trade of AI to Denver.
> 
> ...



Even though I didn't see the fight I don't see a 30 game suspension here. The difference between this and the Pistons/Pacers brawl is that the players went into the stands in that game.


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## eymang (Dec 15, 2006)

I would guess no more than 8 games if that


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

eymang said:


> I would guess no more than 8 games if that


Yeah exactly.

I just heard Nate Robinson said something like "I knew a hard fouling was coming." implying that Isiah told Collins to do it.

Isiah would hardly take responsibility and implied the Nuggets deserved it for leaving Carmelo and Camby in the game. That's BS. 

The Knicks (Crawford, Robinson, Curry) do more dancing and celebrating after a simple basket than anybody in the NBA. Maybe Isiah needs to worry about his own crew.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHI2HYE2J0A&eurl=

I don't know how to post the video thing in here.


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## eymang (Dec 15, 2006)

OT in the OT: Nene is back


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## Sigifrith (Nov 10, 2002)

EC still looking for someone on the floor so he can kick him in the nads.:yay:


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

The only thing worse than NBA melees is messageboard riffraff analyzing who won the fight (*cough*cough RealGM?!)


It did seem premeditated. I wonder if Isiah sent Collins to do the dirty work. Wouldn't surprise me.

Say it with me: Top Five Pick


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

eymang said:


> Just saw part of it on ESPNEWS, don't have any details yet. JR Smith and Carmello and Nate Robinson/Mardy Collins involved. Yeah it's the Knicks, but I really hate Denver, a bunch of *****es on that team


I really hate Nate Robinson. He is the punk that started the whole brawl in the first place. Sure you can yap all you want like the little f*ckin chihuahua that you are, but don't go around throwing your arms and pumping your fist up in another mans face not expecting a reaction. His just a little punk waiting to get punked and his career ended in a short period of time.

Just when you thought Melo got his act together and matured as a player, he sucker punches Mardy and cost his reputation and sent his hard work a big step backwards. This could cost him alot of games and possibly his first all star apperance. It should even cost him his spot on the USA team. What made the situation worst, was right after the punch he back tracked like a B*TCH!!! No man, punches a another person and runs like that! That just proves right there that he was guilty of not protecting his teammate but more so that he was just trying to prove something to himself. HIS A B*TCH!

Sorry for all the profanaties, but this kind of stuff makes me sick.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

To clarify I was talking a total of 30 minus Melo and Smith.........

I think you will see Stern and the NBA come down hard to send a message. Plus, Stern is probably fed up with the players "asserting themselves". Melo deserves to be gone for 15 atleast....The melee was over and he comes in and throws punches like a puss.

Mix it up in the heat of the moment I understand. However, melo was way late with his punches.

Still, I could care less.It's the KNicks and I want them to lose every game. The Thugz, err Nugz....meaning less unless they want to give us Camby for Old Man Brown.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

lougehrig said:


> Saw the highlights.
> 
> Collins with a completely thug foul, although he seemed like he tried to apologize. Robinson was way over the line really. He should have let J.R. Smith and Collins deal with it themselves.
> 
> ...


Are you KIDDING me?

Carmelo Anthony was the biggest idiot out there. 

He SUCKER PUNCHED Mardy Collins. It was completely uncalled for. The situation had defused, and everyone was walking away. There was absolutely no excuse for it whatsoever.

Here he is, having the best season of his career, truly becoming a superstar, and he blew it. Disgusting. He's the worst offender, just as Jackson & O'Neal were the worst offenders in the Pacers/Pistons melee.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

lougehrig said:


> 30 games suspensions!? No way. On the court fight, there is plenty of precendence for this. JR Smith maybe 3 games. Carmelo maybe 5 games. Nate Robinson maybe 30 games for forcing JR Smith into the crowd.


Anthony'll get 15 games. Smith and Nate Robinson will probably get 10.

The NBA is going to crack down on this one big time.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

Pulled this from the Knicks forum...looks like Jeffries "Sprewell'd" Melo.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

chibul said:


> Anthony'll get 15 games. Smith and Nate Robinson will probably get 10.
> 
> The NBA is going to crack down on this one big time.


Let me as you this, let some stranger closeline your brother as you are walking up the street and see if you don't punch him back.

15 games? Are you kidding me? For one punch? Punches happen all the time in the NBA.

Stephen Jackson got 30 games for going into the crowd and attacking fans.

Kermit Washington got 26 games for almost killing Rudy T.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

lougehrig said:


> 25% Collins for thug foul
> 65% Robinson for getting his little hyperactive a$$ in the mix and for rolling into the stands...idiot.
> 10% JR Smith for reacting...but how can you blame him really? And then brawling into the stands.


Haha. I don't know. I think JR's jib problems are showing a little bit. I think I'd hold him more than 10% responsible. Robinson is probably the most out of line but JR and Carmelo are up there. Robinson slapped Carmelo but it didn't look like he landed the swing he took at JR so I think JR is pretty out of line breaking free of the guy holding him back and tackling Robinson into the stands. Here's one question: why weren't any of the Knicks players trying harder to hold Robinson back? He was the most out of line and he's not a very big guy. Someone should have restrained him well enough so that he wasn't able to successfully slap Carmelo and come close to slapping JR.

I place very little blame on Collins. I want to be consistent here. I thought Ben was way out of line when he went after Artest at the Palace. I thought Shaq was way out of line when he went after Brad Miller. Thankfully, JR merely bumped Collins and that might've been it if not for Robinson. Still, going after someone is not a proportional response to a hard foul. If you want to retaliate then foul someone equally hard down at the other end. There's a whole world of difference between a flagrant foul in the course of game play and attemping to fight someone after the whistle has blown and play has stopped.

The biggest thug of all? Isiah. It amazes me that he isn't fined for the things he said in the aftermath of the Bowen ordeal and for implying that violent vigilantism is justified just because they have some of their better players in the game up 20. The guy is demented. He's insane. His mannerisms, facial expressions, and giggling are just unnerving. He reminds me of a crazy villian, like Nicholson as the Joker in Batman.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

lougehrig said:


> Let me as you this, let some stranger closeline your brother as you are walking up the street and see if you don't punch him back.
> 
> 15 games? Are you kidding me? For one punch? Punches happen all the time in the NBA.
> 
> ...


He sucker punched the guy, AFTER the situation had been calmed down. That's the point. Yeah, I punch the guy that takes my brother down, but I do it right away, not after the situation's under control and a mob of people have helped calm it down.

Mark my words, he gets a 10 game minimum.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Sigifrith said:


> EC still looking for someone on the floor so he can kick him in the nads.:yay:


Yeah seriously. EC punches Heyward in the the freakin' family jewels and only got 3 games. Somehow Carmelo is going to get 15 or 30 games for that punch? Isiah should get 30 games for sending in the goons.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

JeremyB0001 said:


> The biggest thug of all? Isiah. It amazes me that he isn't fined for the things he said in the aftermath of the Bowen ordeal and for implying that violent vigilantism is justified just because they have some of their better players in the game up 20. The guy is demented. He's insane. His mannerisms, facial expressions, and giggling are just unnerving. He reminds me of a crazy villian, like Nicholson as the Joker in Batman.


Agreed. I can't believe it...what an idiot.

For those that didn't see it, a reporter asked him in the postgame conference about what he said to Carmelo at midcourt after the sucker punch. He said that he told Anthony that "you guys are up by 20...you and Camby shouldn't even be in the game." He then CRACKED UP LAUGHING in the press conference, and went on about how Denver's starters shouldn't have been in the game.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

chibul said:


> He sucker punched the guy, AFTER the situation had been calmed down. That's the point. Yeah, I punch the guy that takes my brother down, but I do it right away, not after the situation's under control and a mob of people have helped calm it down.
> 
> Mark my words, he gets a 10 game minimum. I'll make a $5 Paypal bet on it.


10 games! All I know is Jermain O'Neal absolutely destroy a Piston's fan with a punch AFTER the brawl in Detroit and got 15 games...and that was a fan.

I don't think that situation was ended because Robinson never shut his trap the entire time so it was still going on. Not to mention Isiah was at half court asking Carmelo why he was still in the game, instigating more activity.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

lougehrig said:


> 10 games! I'll take that bet. All I know is Jermain O'Neal absolutely destroy a Piston's fan with a punch AFTER the brawl in Detroit and got 15 games...and that was a fan.
> 
> I don't think that situation was ended because Robinson never shut his trap the entire time so it was still going on. Not to mention Isiah was at half court asking Carmelo why he was still in the game, instigating more activity.


Isiah asked Anthony that after he'd sucker punched Collins.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

chibul said:


> Agreed. I can't believe it...what an idiot.
> 
> For those that didn't see it, a reporter asked him in the postgame conference about what he said to Carmelo at midcourt after the sucker punch. He said that he told Anthony that "you guys are up by 20...you and Camby shouldn't even be in the game." He then CRACKED UP LAUGHING in the press conference, and went on about how Denver's starters shouldn't have been in the game.


It's really the most psychotic laugh I've ever heard or seen.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

JeremyB0001 said:


> It's really the most psychotic laugh I've ever heard or seen.


I hate how Isiah talks. Did he learn to talk like that in Chicago or at St. Joes? Like you ask him a question, he sits there for a second, you know he is thinking up a lie and then talks like such a tool.

You gotta remember, he was one of the dirtiest players in the league with the Pistons (although Mahorn and Rodman did all the dirty work). You could tell he really want to say, "Hell yeah I told Collins to kill that guy. That's what you do to teams that try to run it up on you. That's what I used to do back in Detroit."

I'm just glad him sinking the Knicks this season will benefit us in the long run.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

lougehrig said:


> I hate how Isiah talks. Did he learn to talk like that in Chicago or at St. Joes? Like you ask him a question, he sits there for a second, you know he is thinking up a lie and then talks like such a tool.
> 
> You gotta remember, he was one of the dirtiest players in the league with the Pistons (although Mahorn and Rodman did all the dirty work). You could tell he really want to say, "Hell yeah I told Collins to kill that guy. That's what you do to teams that try to run it up on you. That's what I used to do back in Detroit."
> 
> I'm just glad him sinking the Knicks this season will benefit us in the long run.


"You're god damn right I ordered the code red!!" (more Nicholson, he's good at playing crazies and Isiah is good at being crazy)

I'd love to see a psychiatrist analyze his body language. The sports guy had a great description of how he stares off into space with this crazy look in his eyes while he's on the bench. I really think the guy is not right in the head.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

JeremyB0001 said:


> "You're god damn right I ordered the code red!!" (more Nicholson, he's good at playing crazies and Isiah is good at being crazy)
> 
> I'd love to see a psychiatrist analyze his body language. The sports guy had a great description of how he stares off into space with this crazy look in his eyes while he's on the bench. I really think the guy is not right in the head.


Can't wait to see the look on his face when we get Greg Oden.

Although I have a strange feeling, this game might be the last we ever see of Isiah Thomas.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

lougehrig said:


> Can't wait to see the look on his face when we get Greg Oden.
> 
> Although I have a strange feeling, this game might be the last we ever see of Isiah Thomas.


Haha. I don't want to think about what Isiah would do if we landed Oden. Something that would get him arrested, committed, or at least create one of the top 10 most infamous moments in sports history. People would talk about it for years and years.


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## BeZerker2008 (Jun 29, 2006)

kulaz3000 said:


> Just when you thought Melo got his act together and matured as a player, he sucker punches Mardy and cost his reputation and sent his hard work a big step backwards. This could cost him alot of games and possibly his first all star apperance. It should even cost him his spot on the USA team. What made the situation worst, was right after the punch he back tracked like a B*TCH!!! No man, punches a another person and runs like that! That just proves right there that he was guilty of not protecting his teammate but more so that he was just trying to prove something to himself. HIS A B*TCH!


I know, melo should have been a leader and calmed his guys down like smith and kept his guys from getting into this melee costing them probably a series of games for the suspensions to some of their starters. 

Instead like you said he acted like a little 'B' & did a hit and run. 

Robinson, did cause the majority of this fight. Collins did do a hard foul but didn't seem to follow suit with jr and fight. Robinson can be seen pushing and shoving basically everyone around his & putting up his dukes, that's when jr took exception and tackled robinson.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Was the forum down for anyone else for a while?


Does anyone else hate Nate Robinson? He's a punk who acted like he was going to kick some @$$, but did nothing. He just stood there acting like he was the $hit. 

While I don't condone violence, this surely helps us in the Oden Sweepstakes. Things are going south in a hurry. I hope all those ejected Knicks players get multiple game suspensions. 

Btw, I know that it's not typical for starters to be in the game so-late, but I see Isiah using that as a mere excuse to accept this melee. Same with Nate Robinson.

Btw, Melo, I've never seen a punch-slap before, and then the initiator backpedeling. What was up with that. If you are going to throw a punch, stay in there and fight to the end.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

chibul said:


> Pulled this from the Knicks forum...looks like Jeffries "Sprewell'd" Melo.



Jeffries, the twig of the NBA doing all he can to be Nate's bodyguard. 

Man I hate the Knicks. I know Denver deserves a lot of blame, and rightfully so, but I just hate the Knicks. Their [email protected]$$es trying to find excuses that this fight is acceptable (Nate and Isiah).


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

That is some pretty good stuff there. Too bad that Mighty Mouse is a thug...I was actually cheering for him in the slam dunk contest (even though he's a Knick) and loved his block on the big dummy (Yao Ming). 5'9" (stretching it) blocking a big over-rated 7'6" guy? Hell yeah, now that's impressive. Turns out that his ego and thug-ness is right up there with his athleticism and hops.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I'll give credit to the block, just b/c I think Yao is uncoordinate and is probably the one big named player who has had several posterized/crossed-over moments. It's just hilarious.

Iggy should have won the contest. The behind the backboard dunk was incredible. I think it's one of the best in slam dunk history. Nate should not have had 20 tries.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

theanimal23 said:


> I'll give credit to the block, just b/c I think Yao is uncoordinate and is probably the one big named player who has had several posterized/crossed-over moments. It's just hilarious.
> 
> Iggy should have won the contest. The behind the backboard dunk was incredible. I think it's one of the best in slam dunk history. Nate should not have had 20 tries.


Yeah, the # of attempts did ruin it...at least partially. He was still pretty impressive aside from that. No one compares to the old days though, with 3 of my favorite players of all time dominated it....Jordan, Dominique, and Spud. I guess Josh Smith his rookie year was pretty good, kinda of Dominique-esque.


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## JPTurbo (Jan 8, 2006)

I'm sorry I haven't had time to read the complete thread but I just saw this on ESPN. 

They just showed Isiah laughing like, "oh they were showboating, throwing down lobs on us."

Like that is an excuse to start this at all?!?!? Any team any time has the right to completely blow you out if the coach feels like doing. If George Karl feels like playing his starters and they are getting bored, they have all the right in the world to make it look pretty if they can. F any argument, if NY can't keep up at their hardest, there is no excuse.

Then after that they have Allan Houston on ESPN saying that the Knicks have a great excuse for this because the Nuggets were rubbing it in their faces!!!!! F that!!!!!!! I'm not sorry, that is the worst bunch of BS I have ever heard. Take it like a man Isiah, just because you are coaching a top 3 media team doesn't mean you can't lose big.


But honestly, who is surprised, Thomas was a very dirty player. Is it surprising at all that his new team pulls something like this and he flops on camera like it was all their fault?! F THAT!!!! I know there are regulations but in all honesty Smith and Melo should miss maybe 3 a piece, the Knicks involved at least 9 a piece, and Isiah gone.

That obviously can't happen because there is no proof, but anyone that knows anything knows that Thomas is a sorry piece of dung and responsible for the altercation.


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## JPTurbo (Jan 8, 2006)

BTW Melo came in and threw the punch when there were still 4 Knicks standing there. Call him a B**** all you want because it is the popular thing to do, but no competent human being is going to stand there after delivering a blow to a man of the three friends standing there. 

Some people forget to realize that although it is sports, it's also real life. Instincts serve as a big part in what any of us do.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

This whole fiasco is just the case of people showing their true colors on the court. Punks being punks.

Robinson, punk (anybody question this?).

JR, punk (although you can't really blame the last night on him.)

Melo, punk (the only reason he won't become a superstar like Wade and LJ. He was a punk coming out of the college and hasn't changed a bit.)

IT, punk (as a player before & a punk as a coach now)


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## LegoHat (Jan 14, 2004)

Nate Robinson and Melo are the people to blaim for this. Nate for starting it by being a complete punk, and Melo for sucker punching Collins after things seemed to have cooled down.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

I've been waiting on NYK to give me one and finally they did.

The NYK pick is officially OFF THE TABLE in any trade.  :clap:


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

And JR smith and Nate Robinson are going to end up in the seats for a while, because the fight between them ended up off the court in where some fans were sitting.

15 games minimum. Probably 20 for little Nate.


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## ballerkingn (Nov 17, 2006)

Very childish fight,carmelo look like a chump sucker punching marty.JR smith who is 6'6 get's no cool point's for going after 5'7 nate robinson.Isiah for once was right,melo,camby,and j.r smith shouldn't have even been on the court at the same time with a 20 pt lead so i'm glad now George Karl is going to pay for being [email protected] and lose his best 2 player's for a loooooooong time. What else.... umh o yeah with the knick's they might lose some good player's for awhile which might help us in the draft.

So all around ugly and sad for but team's but esp, melo who I think loses his ghetto pass.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

By the way in Chris Sheridan's article today on the brawl, he quotes somebody in the Denver organization who apparently heard Isiah tell 'Melo he shouldn't go anywhere near the paint. My guess is that the only major suspensions go to Collins (5 games) for initiating the foul, Robinson (10 games) for escalating the situation, J.R. Smith (6 games)for fighting Robinson, Jeffries (8 games) for the choke on Melo and then going after everybody, and Melo(15 games) for sucker punching Collins.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Looks like Denver will get the worst of the suspensions.

They lose their leading scorer (if you think that's important) and their starting guard.

Knicks lose a glue player and a bench guard.

Looks like IT got his message across and managed to not lose many of his core players.


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

> 10% JR Smith for reacting...but how can you blame him really? And then brawling into the stands.


Ask Kirk Hinrich after he was leveled by James Posey in last year's playoffs.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

I'm reading that Karl was running up the score/humiliating the Knicks out of loyalty to Larry Brown.

Marc Berman says



> The Knicks of Isiah Thomas have disgraced themselves more than Larry Brown's club ever did, as Mardy Collins, Nate Robinson and Jared Jeffries have to be given lengthy suspensions by the NBA for their roles in this frightening episode.
> 
> Robinson and Collins are two recent Isiah draft picks and Jeffries was their free-agent signing this summer. Three guys who looked like nothing but punks at the end of getting bombed out of the Garden by the superior Nuggets. Their excuse afterward the Nuggets were running up the score is bogus.
> 
> You can blame so much of it on Thomas, who sets the tone. In San Antonio last month, he tried to start a fight with a player - Bruce Bowen. You reap what you sow. Isiah looked heartbroken when the brawl was over and all 10 players on the court at the time got booted. This wasn't bravery. This was stupidity and lack of discipline.


http://blogs.nypost.com/sports/knicks/archives/2006/12/disgusting_braw.html#more


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

So yeah, pretty cool fight from the Bulls perspective. We have the Knicks first rounder, and the Nuggets second rounder. So if both them teams are now forced to pick higher.........truly devastating.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Looks like Denver will get the worst of the suspensions.
> 
> They lose their leading scorer (if you think that's important) and their starting guard.
> 
> ...


Getting a point across is not worth multi game suspensions, even to bench players. Plus, the negative press is really swirling around this fight. I think more than anything, Isaiah has brought more chaos to his underperforming team, and he has put himself under the microscope again.

You are THE ONLY person I've heard say anything positive about Isaiah in the aftermath of this fight.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> Getting a point across is not worth multi game suspensions, even to bench players. Plus, the negative press is really swirling around this fight. I think more than anything, Isaiah has brought more chaos to his underperforming team, and he has put himself under the microscope again.
> 
> You are THE ONLY person I've heard say anything positive about Isaiah in the aftermath of this fight.


The NY columnists are really blaiming their home team for this one. I don't think he will be suspended, but in light of his actions last night and in San Antonio, Isaiah will probably receive a confidential letter or phone call from the league with a masked threat included.

http://blogs.nypost.com/sports/knicks/archives/2006/12/disgusting_braw.html#more
http://nydailynews.com/front/story/480943p-404745c.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/480876p-404688c.html

National media:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16245553/page/2/



> The Knicks are a terrible basketball team. They were that way when Thomas inherited them, but he’s done little to make them better. Getting humiliated is a way of life for them.
> 
> The solution isn’t flagrant fouls or throwing punches. It doesn’t help the team and it damages a league that doesn’t really need any more damage.


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## BeZerker2008 (Jun 29, 2006)

JPTurbo said:


> BTW Melo came in and threw the punch when there were still 4 Knicks standing there. Call him a B**** all you want because it is the popular thing to do, but no competent human being is going to stand there after delivering a blow to a man of the three friends standing there.
> 
> Some people forget to realize that although it is sports, it's also real life. Instincts serve as a big part in what any of us do.


Yeah, but do to the amount of bad press melo has had he'll be even more criticized for this. He should have been a leader and helped stopped whatever it is they were doing. He knows that the Nuggets are one of the top teams in the tough Western Conference. He's going to cost them a lot of games due to the suspensions and lord knows how they will be in the standings, they will most likely play catch-up.

All melo had to do was hold off another minute or two, calmed his teammates down, got the victory, walk away, go home & wait for the next game. Now who knows how many games he will cost his team and cost them meaningful games that might factor in their playoff chances.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> You are THE ONLY person I've heard say anything positive about Isaiah in the aftermath of this fight.


I would not consider it a positive.

Denver will be losing more essential players due to suspension than the Knicks will be. IT was smarter about engaging in petty antics than Karl was since he had his less essential players do the dirty work, IMO.


Karl was trying to prove a point (nyah nyah nyah this one is for larry) and IT/Knicks players were trying to prove a point (not in our house).

Given the short leash IT is on and the piranha like nature of the NYC press, IT would have been smarter for his own sake just to swallow his pride and let Denver run up the score in a blowout, even though its a ****ty move on Karl's part.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

Why was my Paypal bet deleted?


----------



## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

chibul said:


> Why was my Paypal bet deleted?


No betting or gambling on this site.


----------



## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

chifaninca said:


> No betting or gambling on this site.


http://www.basketballforum.com/showthread.php?t=320652&highlight=paypal

Given that this entire TOPIC dealt with that, and wasn't deleted, I assumed it was okay.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

Carmelo Anthony is claiming that Isiah Thomas told him to stay out of the lane.

Does anyone actually LIKE Isiah Thomas? Honestly?


----------



## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

chibul said:


> Carmelo Anthony is claiming that Isiah Thomas told him to stay out of the lane.
> 
> Does anyone actually LIKE Isiah Thomas? Honestly?


Carmelo is just reaching and trying to save his own skin now, knowing whats at stake. That doesn't justify his actions in any form.

Why not punch Isiah then?? That i would have loved to see. I don't buy the whole trying to up the score non sense. If you got a whooping you got a whooping plain and simple, whether its by the starters or bench players should be far from your worries as a coach. Isiah has always been a bad example for the league..


----------



## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Everyone is a little bit to blame. I doubt anyone gets more than 10 games. 

Zeke continues to prove he's the most colossal **** up in history and a complete disgrace to NBA basketball. If his laughably gross incompetence wasn't so advantageous I'd advocate that he be suspended as well. 

I am thoroughly enjoying his continued and unprecedented public humiliation.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

After THIS? I don't think we should trade that pick.

The Knicks will be humiliated for the rest of the year, although they already were. That type of team can't handle all the scrutiny that's about to be thrown at them.

We're getting a top 5er...

Oden
B.Wright
Noah
J.Wright
Durant

pick your poison....


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> Given the short leash IT is on and the piranha like nature of the NYC press, IT would have been smarter for his own sake just to swallow his pride and let Denver run up the score in a blowout, even though its a ****ty move on Karl's part.



Was it? This isn't high school where one vastly superior team can excessively beat up on another. They're all professional franchises. If you don't want to get blown out and embarassed, then stop Denver from doing so.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=dw-knicks121606&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Some funny stuff in there regarding Nate and Isiah saying they were being embarrassed by the Nuggets running up the score, and Nate tried to do a 'slam dunk' contest dunk vs the Cavs a few weeks back isn't showing off from Nate's point of view? Haha. Those Knicks.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

theanimal23 said:


> http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=dw-knicks121606&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
> 
> Some funny stuff in there regarding Nate and Isiah saying they were being embarrassed by the Nuggets running up the score, and Nate tried to do a 'slam dunk' contest dunk vs the Cavs a few weeks back isn't showing off from Nate's point of view? Haha. Those Knicks.





> If Thomas wants to stop people from running up the score on him, then he should have built a better club. He shouldn't have wasted all that money on illogical signings, outrageous trades and heartless characters.



Yep, spot-on.


That was a great article.


----------



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

chibul said:


> http://www.basketballforum.com/showthread.php?t=320652&highlight=paypal
> 
> Given that this entire TOPIC dealt with that, and wasn't deleted, I assumed it was okay.


http://www.basketballforum.com/vbookie.php?


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## eymang (Dec 15, 2006)

WOW, go to ESPN.com, check out this link http://broadband.espn.go.com/ivp/splash?id=2700819 (links to video), ESPN has footage of Isiah telling Anthony not to go near the basket, with his sick little smile (you can read his lips)

Changes my whole perspective on this. Isiah truley is a moron. It's one thing to call out a hit, another to go telling everyone about it.


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## bullsger (Jan 14, 2003)

eymang said:


> WOW, go to ESPN.com, check out this link http://broadband.espn.go.com/ivp/splash?id=2700819 (links to video), ESPN has footage of Isiah telling Anthony not to go near the basket, with his sick little smile (you can read his lips)
> 
> Changes my whole perspective on this. Isiah truley is a moron. It's one thing to call out a hit, another to go telling everyone about it.


Good finding. :clap2:


----------



## LegoHat (Jan 14, 2004)

Isaiah truly is a complete idiot... But I hope he stays with the Knicks, cause he'll only continue to make things worse for them.


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## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

15 games for Anthony, per ESPNews.
10 for Smith and Robinson, 6 for Collins, 4 for Jeffries.
Nene and Jerome James, 1 each.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> If you don't want to get blown out and embarassed, then stop Denver from doing so.


The game was over.

Karl was apparently running up the score over a personal grudge.

I don't really care one way or the other, as long as the Knicks lose the game, but, IMO, its poor sportsmanship on Karl's part.


----------



## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

JRose5 said:


> 15 games for Anthony, per ESPNews.
> 10 for Smith and Robinson, 6 for Collins, 4 for Jeffries.
> Nene and Jerome James, 1 each.


I'll be the first to admit that I was way off. I thought they would be alot less. I guess after the Palace brawl, we didn't know what the precendence would be. This decision ultimately is more important than the Palace decision since this was a "normal" fight.

If I were Carmelo, I would be pissed. There is no precedence for 15 games for his punch. I see it being appealed to less (10 games) ultimately. 

So basically Carmelo received the same punishment Jermaine O'Neal got for drilling a fan at the Palace.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

JRose5 said:


> 15 games for Anthony, per ESPNews.
> 10 for Smith and Robinson, 6 for Collins, 4 for Jeffries.
> Nene and Jerome James, 1 each.


Nuggets were hurt a lot more by this fight than the Knicks.


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

eymang said:


> WOW, go to ESPN.com, check out this link http://broadband.espn.go.com/ivp/splash?id=2700819 (links to video), ESPN has footage of Isiah telling Anthony not to go near the basket, with his sick little smile (you can read his lips)
> 
> Changes my whole perspective on this. Isiah truley is a moron. It's one thing to call out a hit, another to go telling everyone about it.


+1


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## thebullybully (Jan 26, 2005)

I'm not really questioning sportsmanlike conduct or not specific to this instance, but I have a question about running up the score. Isn't it sort of hypocritical of a league to espouse gentlemanly aggreements in a blowout and at the same time track and give weight to an individual scoring title?


----------



## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

thebullybully said:


> I'm not really questioning sportsmanlike conduct or not specific to this instance, but I have a question about running up the score. Isn't it sort of hypocritical of a league to espouse gentlemanly aggreements in a blowout and at the same time track and give weight to an individual scoring title?


Well, probably.

I also wanted to point out that the Knicks came back in the final minutes of a game in Denver when they were down 12 to beat the Nuggets. It could be argued that Karl was trying to make sure the Knicks did stay down (and Thomas taking ut his starters in many cases makes the Knicks a better team.)


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

January 19th before Melo returns.

The games he and Smith will miss---they have somewhat of a homestand:

Mon 18 vs Washington 
Wed 20 vs Phoenix 
Fri 22 vs Sacramento 
Tue 26 vs Boston 
Thu 28 vs Seattle 
Fri 29 @ New Orleans 
Sun 31 vs Dallas 
January	
Tue 02 vs Philadelphia 
Fri 05 @ LA Lakers 
Sat 06 vs Utah [1600/1510
Mon 08 vs Milwaukee ------- (Smith Returns)
Wed 10 vs San Antonio 
Fri 12 vs Houston 
Sun 14 @ Portland 
Fri 19 vs Cleveland


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> Nuggets were hurt a lot more by this fight than the Knicks.


Predictably. I don't know how it could have gone any other way. 

Melo is the most significant player and he's the one how sucker punched an opponent with a closed fist. 

I thought he'd get 10 games though, not 15. 

I'm also a little surprised that Smith and Robinson got 10. I had them pegged for about 7 a piece. 

FWIW, if Collins is being penalized only for the flagrant, he got WAY too stiff a suspension. What did Raja Bell and Stackhouse get in the playoffs last year? 1 game? 2 games? 

Was Collins' flagrant any worse than those? I don't think it was.


----------



## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

> There was no separate penalty for Knicks coach Isiah Thomas, who had warned Anthony not to go into the lane before the mayhem started Saturday night.
> 
> There was speculation Thomas would be penalized for his comments to Anthony. Stern acknowledged hearing about it, but said he relied only on "definitive information" when handing out punishments.
> 
> ...


ESPN.com

I thought that Stu Jackson was in charge of discipline. That half mill has got to smart...


----------



## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

Ron Cey said:


> FWIW, if Collins is being penalized only for the flagrant, he got WAY too stiff a suspension. What did Raja Bell and Stackhouse get in the playoffs last year? 1 game? 2 games?
> 
> Was Collins' flagrant any worse than those? I don't think it was.


It was his second flagrant in two nights. He had one against the Pacers in similar circumstances - towards the end of the game, Pacers clearly winning. 

Melo can take his case to arbitration, and I bet he wins. The others can't.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

narek said:


> It was his second flagrant in two nights. He had one against the Pacers in similar circumstances - towards the end of the game, Pacers clearly winning.


Oh. I didn't know that. 6 games still seems pretty stiff to me for an admittedly overzealous, though not malicious, flagrant in my opinion.


----------



## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

It's really not a bad thing for the Nuggets. Yes, the lose their leader and the NBA's leading scorer, but it will give Carmelo a bit of a rest. He played alot of minutes at the World Championships and you can see the impact that has had on other players (DWade and Lebron).

Also, I can't imagine a guy in the Nuggets locker room (including George Karl) who is upset that Carmelo was sticking up for his team. Yeah, a sucker punch is a no way to show leadership, but it showed he was willing to step up and be the teams true leader.

All I gotta say is watch out when a fully rested Carmelo comes back from his suspension.

No different that Dr. J fighting Bird or Pippen fighting Ewing.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

15 games for Anthony.
10 for Smith and Robinson
6 for Collins
4 for Jared Jeffries
1 for Nene and Jerome James

---------


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> *It's really not a bad thing for the Nuggets.* Yes, the lose their leader and the NBA's leading scorer, but it will give Carmelo a bit of a rest. He played alot of minutes at the World Championships and you can see the impact that has had on other players (DWade and Lebron).


Its an absolutely horrible thing for the Nuggets.



> Also, I can't imagine a guy in the Nuggets locker room (including George Karl) who is upset that Carmelo was sticking up for his team. Yeah, a sucker punch is a no way to show leadership, *but it showed he was willing to step up and be the teams true leader.*


I guess he went to the Ron Artest school of leadership where selfish stupidity manifesting itself in physical violence directly impacting your team in a negative way through loss of said player is viewed as leading the way. 

He screwed his teammates. It could cost them playoff positioning and maybe even a playoff appearance if they play horribly while he's away - which is a distinct possibility. 

They are currently the 7th seed in the West *with Melo*. When he returns, the season will be nearly half over. 

He sucker punched a player and promptly ran away after a fight had pretty much completely subsided. Way to go, leader.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

I can't believe Stern didn't at least fine IT for this fiasco. He is the first instigator of this whole thing.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

lgtwins said:


> I can't believe Stern didn't at least fine IT for this fiasco. He is the first instigator of this whole thing.


Both teams were fined $500,000.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

narek said:


> It was his second flagrant in two nights. He had one against the Pacers in similar circumstances - towards the end of the game, Pacers clearly winning.
> 
> Melo can take his case to arbitration, and <b>I bet he wins.</b> The others can't.


I bet Melo will lose it. Stern can give out a suspension up to 12 games without any worry of arbitration. Melo can only ask the reduction of 3 games and I bet he won't get it from NBA.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

narek said:


> Both teams were fined $500,000.


That's fine for the team. Not IT, right?


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

lgtwins said:


> That's fine for the team. Not IT, right?


Yep. But indirectly, it's a slam to both Karl and Zeke. Stupidity isn't a good enough reason to fine someone, or there'd be a ton of fines out.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> The game was over.
> 
> Karl was apparently running up the score over a personal grudge.
> 
> I don't really care one way or the other, as long as the Knicks lose the game, but, IMO, its poor sportsmanship on Karl's part.



I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy. If you don't want to get blown out, play some flipping defense. The game is over after 48 minutes have been played.

I believe in not running up the score for amateur leagues when one side has clearly overpowered the other. In the NBA, you have to be kidding. If a team gets blown out, they get blown out. Nobody has a duty to take their foot off the gas.


----------



## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

narek said:


> Yep. But indirectly, it's a slam to both Karl and Zeke. Stupidity isn't a good enough reason to fine someone, or there'd be a ton of fines out.


I don't know. Being stupid and ordering his player to hardfoul opponent and later on almost admitting on camera is two different things. Didn't a college basketball coach got fined/suspended or fired for ordering one of his player for hardfouling opponent last year?


----------



## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! (Jun 10, 2003)

N-U-G-G-E-T-S S-H-M-U-G-G-E-T-T-S!!!

Who cares about them; it's the continued implosion of the NY franchise that should clearly be of interest in this board....any news on the potential "relival of duties" of a certain Isiah Thomas?????


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

lgtwins said:


> I don't know. Being stupid and ordering his player to hardfoul opponent and later on almost admitting on camera is two different things. Didn't a college basketball coach got fined/suspended or fired for ordering one of his player for hardfouling opponent last year?


"almost" is the key. Stern said "“Teams will be held accountable for the actions of their employees--management and players alike" in his press conference (quote from Truehoop.com). 

Mardy Collins old college coach ordered one of his players to hard foul an opponent - not sure of the outcome, I don't pay that close attention to NCAA basketball outside of Wisconsin and the Big Ten.


----------



## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! said:


> N-U-G-G-E-T-S S-H-M-U-G-G-E-T-T-S!!!
> 
> Who cares about them; it's the continued implosion of the NY franchise that should clearly be of interest in this board....any news on the potential "relival of duties" of a certain Isiah Thomas?????


If Thomas goes, they could end up with an improvement But maybe not with Dolan doing the hiring.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Ron Cey said:


> Its an absolutely horrible thing for the Nuggets.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I look at this way, Carmelo was in a no win situation. Let's say JR is getting attacked by Collins AND insane Nate Robinson. What can Carmelo do? Stand there and let the refs take care of it and lose the respect of your team. I do admit punching a guy after the fact wasn't right at all and probably as stupid as you can be, but he needed to intervene somehow.

Everybody is saying what a great teammate Jared Jeffries was, but what a punk Carmelo is. They were doing the same thing. Jeffries was trying to fight to the very last second. Carmelo was protecting JR Smith, simple as that.

So if he punched Collins sooner and didn't run away would that have been okay?

The suspension will probably be reduced to 10 games (JO's went frmo 25 to 15 games last year).

Everybody expects Carmelo to respond like the pope. Truth is everybody in the NBA fights. Even great leaders and great players like MJ, Dr. J, Bird, Pippen, Kareem, Ewing, Olajuwon, Ray Allen, etc. etc.


----------



## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

narek said:


> <b>"almost" is the key.</b> Stern said "“Teams will be held accountable for the actions of their employees--management and players alike" in his press conference (quote from Truehoop.com).
> 
> Mardy Collins old college coach ordered one of his players to hard foul an opponent - not sure of the outcome, I don't pay that close attention to NCAA basketball outside of Wisconsin and the Big Ten.


Actually "almost" is not the key. IT got caught on tape warning Denver players "Don't go to the basket RIGHT NOW." ESPN played it sometime today and ESPN website had video of it (not sure it still has). So IT clearly warn Denver players, order Knicks to act on it and Collins executed the order. There is no "almost" here. (I should have taken out that "almost")


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy. If you don't want to get blown out, play some flipping defense. The game is over after 48 minutes have been played.
> 
> I believe in not running up the score for amateur leagues when one side has clearly overpowered the other. In the NBA, you have to be kidding. If a team gets blown out, they get blown out. Nobody has a duty to take their foot off the gas.


I'm not a big fan of running up scores, but please...

Zeke's postgame comments defended this fiasco on those grounds, and he seemed to support the "not in my house" machismo leading to the brawl.


I am glad that none of our ex-Bulls got involved with the knucklehead antics.

That is just plain ridiculous.

A bunch of grown men know better than to get into fistfights on the court, like a bunch of 6th graders on the playground -- especially when they know perfectly well that the consequences will mean hurting their team long run with suspensions.


----------



## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

lougehrig said:


> I look at this way, <b>Carmelo was in a no win situation. Let's say JR is getting attacked by Collins AND insane Nate Robinson. What can Carmelo do? </b> Stand there and let the refs take care of it and lose the respect of your team. I do admit punching a guy after the fact wasn't right at all and probably as stupid as you can be, but he needed to intervene somehow.
> 
> Everybody is saying what a great teammate Jared Jeffries was, but what a punk Carmelo is. They were doing the same thing. Jeffries was trying to fight to the very last second. Carmelo was protecting JR Smith, simple as that.
> 
> ...


Bolded part is totally false. By the time Melo threw a punch, the whole thing was really calmed down already. So basically Melo can just stand there as you put it.


----------



## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> I look at this way, Carmelo was in a no win situation. Let's say JR is getting attacked by Collins AND insane Nate Robinson. What can Carmelo do?


Help break it up. That, in fact, is what most of the players were doing. 



> I do admit punching a guy after the fact wasn't right at all and probably as stupid as you can be, *but he needed to intervene somehow.*


By helping break it up. 



> Everybody is saying what a great teammate Jared Jeffries was, but what a punk Carmelo is. They were doing the same thing. Jeffries was trying to fight to the very last second. Carmelo was protecting JR Smith, simple as that.


That isn't accurate. The fight was over when Melo threw his punch. Smith wasn't in the fold. 



> So if he punched Collins sooner and didn't run away would that have been okay?


If it was part of a fray I'd have a little more sympathy for what he did than waiting until everything was basically over and then sucker punching a guy, yes.



> The suspension will probably be reduced to 10 games (JO's went frmo 25 to 15 games last year).


I doubt it. But I agree that it was too harsh. 10 would have been plenty. 



> Truth is everybody in the NBA fights. Even great leaders and great players like MJ, Dr. J, Bird, Pippen, Kareem, Ewing, Olajuwon, Ray Allen, etc. etc.


They did? I don't pretent to be an NBA historian, but I don't rember MJ, Bird, Dr. J., Pippen, Kareem, The Dream or Ray Allen punching anyone in the face with a closed fist during a game.


----------



## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

And to add about Douchebag Thomas, this is from today's ESPN article about the fight:



> Thomas said Monday that Karl put his players in danger by leaving them on the floor too long.


Now, I'll admit its a paraphrase and doesn't quote his exact words. But if that is an accurate account, I just don't understand how anyone can possibly defend this guy at all. 

Taking all things into consideration, he truly is the worst general manager in the history of the NBA. Sadly, and I mean that, the Knicks franchise has become an absolute joke on pretty much every level there is for an NBA team.


----------



## theyoungsrm (May 23, 2003)

*Blame Karl too*

People are really letting off Karl too easy. If I were a Nuggets fan, I be furious with him and him alone. He used his best players in a game that was clearly over. I have no idea whether the whole "defending Brown" theory was correct, but I do know having your best players in that late does your team no good and is clearly taboo. I'm not saying that what the Knicks were doing was right, but it was clearly clearly foreseeable especially for a dude that's been around the game as long as Karl. 

You're picking at a wounded dog and then acting suprised when that dog bites your *** back. 

As for Isiah, I don't see how warning Carmelo not to go to the lane is somehow morphed into he sent Marty into get JR Smith. If he really was this evil vilian, why the hell would be warning their top player to not go the basket. 

My idea is that he knew what Karl knew or should of known....that the Knicks would not be happy with them running the score up. I'm not saying the Knicks shoulda done what they did, but again it was completely foreseeable. It could and has had happen at all levels of the game. 

Karl should of known better and in the end he was the one that was punished the most. The Knicks will be bad with or without Robinson, Collins, and Jefferies. If anything it may fire them up.


----------



## theyoungsrm (May 23, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> And to add about Douchebag Thomas, this is from today's ESPN article about the fight:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The quote is probably completely accurate but there NOTHING wrong with Thomas' observation. 

Are we bothered with his honesty?

Let's take it to football, if your up 48-0 and you continue to throw the ball down the field with 2 minutes left, would you be suprised if the D starts taking shot at the QB?

It ain't right, but I don't think Thomas is saying it is. He's just telling us the reality and Nugs fans should be lucky that he warned Carmelo, when it should of been Karl issuing the warning


----------



## Orange Julius Irving (Jun 28, 2004)

lgtwins said:


> I can't believe Stern didn't at least fine IT for this fiasco. He is the first instigator of this whole thing.


He should have been considering what Stern said about the Organization being held responsible and IT basically saying it was The Nugget's fault for bringing it on themselves.

I couldn't believe he said that The Nuggets were showing a "lack of class" in the situation.

This from a guy whose whole team refused to shake the Bulls hands or give them any kind of credit for sweeping his team after 3 straight seasons of sending them home.

Thomas was a bit of a punk in his days as a player as well. 

He once said Larry Bird was only considered great because he was white and if he was black he would just be "another player" in the league


----------



## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMQYMnE-3pA

Here's George's comments from ESPNEWS. Calls Isiah "a jerk, a total *******, full of $%#." Taped off my digital camera so forgive the audio for being off for whatever reason.


----------



## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

ChiBulls2315 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMQYMnE-3pA
> 
> Here's George's comments from ESPNEWS. Calls Isiah "a jerk, a total *******, full of $%#." Taped off my digital camera so forgive the audio for being off for whatever reason.


Brilliant, I love George Karl  Thomas has always been a douche bag and has gotten away with for most of his life. 

And how is it that the Knicks can be the highest payroll team in the league as well as being a cellar for years and they just now are getting embarrassed?


----------



## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> The quote is probably completely accurate but there NOTHING wrong with Thomas' observation.
> 
> Are we bothered with his honesty?


Well, I guess he's being honest about the fact that his pride was so hurt that he instructed his guys to make it "dangerous" (evidently his word) for the Nuggest to play. 

Yes. He's honest (about this). But being honest about being a piece of **** just makes you an honest piece of ****.


----------



## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

Ron Cey said:


> Well, I guess he's being honest about the fact that his pride was so hurt that he instructed his guys to make it "dangerous" (evidently his word) for the Nuggest to play.
> 
> <b>Yes. He's honest (about this). But being honest about being a piece of **** just makes you an honest piece of ****.</b>


Best post of this thread so far.:clap: :clap: :clap:


----------



## theyoungsrm (May 23, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> Well, I guess he's being honest about the fact that his pride was so hurt that he instructed his guys to make it "dangerous" (evidently his word) for the Nuggest to play.
> 
> Yes. He's honest (about this). But being honest about being a piece of **** just makes you an honest piece of ****.



i just dont understand that if thomas instructed the hit, why would he tip off their best player about it. 

i would think you'd try to keep that thing under wraps until it happens


----------



## theyoungsrm (May 23, 2003)

and if your a nuggets fan how could you not be mad at karl for having all of his top guys out there


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy. If you don't want to get blown out, play some flipping defense. The game is over after 48 minutes have been played.
> 
> I believe in not running up the score for amateur leagues when one side has clearly overpowered the other. In the NBA, you have to be kidding. If a team gets blown out, they get blown out. Nobody has a duty to take their foot off the gas.



No sympathy is being asked for.

Running up the score and playing your best players when its clear the other team has conceded will lead to bad blood, on any level, whether you have sympathy or not.

If Karl continues to run his team in such a fashion it will be no surprise to see some more hard fouls doled out as a retaliation. If you want to start engaging in petty antics, expect more petty antics to follow... and it can quickly escalate as we saw.

The NBA showed by the suspensions today who it thought was more at fault. 

I know everyone here hates IT, but the Nuggets were the ones who crossed the line more, unless you disagree with the suspensions. They were also the ones who started this nonsense with running up the score. If all IT authorized was a hard foul on a guy thowing down windmill jams in a blowout with 1:30 left, then I don't have much of a problem with that. I don't have much problem with a little pushing and 'rasslin either when tempers get hot. It happens. When people clench fists and start swinging is when it can get dangerous.

OMG. A basketball fight. Stop the presses. This story is way, way overblown, IMO. The only big deal here is the clenched fist. I also don't have much of a problem with Nate getting a suspension for putting up the fists and clamoring for a fight.

The Nuggets were the more foolish team. That's why they have lost their top scorers and were suspended more games.


----------



## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

chibul said:


> Anthony'll get 15 games. Smith and Nate Robinson will probably get 10.
> 
> The NBA is going to crack down on this one big time.


Told you so.


----------



## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

Ron Cey said:


> Oh. I didn't know that. 6 games still seems pretty stiff to me for an admittedly overzealous, though not malicious, flagrant in my opinion.


His coach TOLD him to foul hard to send a message. How is that NOT malicious?


----------



## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

lougehrig said:


> I look at this way, Carmelo was in a no win situation. Let's say JR is getting attacked by Collins AND insane Nate Robinson. What can Carmelo do? Stand there and let the refs take care of it and lose the respect of your team. I do admit punching a guy after the fact wasn't right at all and probably as stupid as you can be, but he needed to intervene somehow.


He didn't need to do a damn thing. The fight was over. The referees had control of the situation. He waited until he could get a cheap shot in. How would he lose the respect of his team? There wouldn't have been a damn person in that locker room that would've said, "Wow, Carmelo didn't beat the **** out of the Knicks and get himself suspended, I don't respect him anymore!" Give me a damn break.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> No sympathy is being asked for.
> 
> Running up the score and playing your best players when its clear the other team has conceded will lead to bad blood, on any level, whether you have sympathy or not.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of this - and with pretty much everything you've written in this thread - except for the notion that somehow running up the score calls for flagrant fouls. 

It doesn't. If Karl wants to be stupid and risk injury - in the normal course of a basketball game - to his players and rub a guy's face in it, so bet it. I don't advocate that kind of thing, but I certainly don't have a big problem with it either. This isn't pee-wee basketball. 

And I DEFINITELY don't think it qualifies as an excuse for violence - which, after all, is what a deliberate flagrant foul is. This is just Zeke cracking beneath the weight of his own incompetence and looking for a scapegoat to explain it all away. 

But you aren't alone blaming Karl, K4E. Along with Nate Robinson and Isiah Thomas, that makes 3 of you.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

chibul said:


> His coach TOLD him to foul hard to send a message. How is that NOT malicious?


My fault. I wasn't clear. I meant that it was not maliciously intended to injure. 

Obviously it was deliberate.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Another comment that gauls me is Zeke saying it was obvious that the Nugget startsers shouldn't have been in there _because his team had already surrendered._

While that is certainly tue, the fact that his team had quit before the game is over should bother him as much as the fight did.

But it doesn't.

Which is precisely what is wrong with Isiah Thomas and the Jibless Wonders.


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## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

Ron Cey said:


> My fault. I wasn't clear. I meant that it was not maliciously intended to injure.
> 
> Obviously it was deliberate.


I don't think that Collins went out there with the mindset of intentionally hurting him, no. At the same time, it's still inexcusable.


----------



## chibul (Oct 14, 2006)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Another comment that gauls me is Zeke saying it was obvious that the Nugget startsers shouldn't have been in there _because his team had already surrendered._
> 
> While that is certainly tue, the fact that his team had quit before the game is over should bother him as much as the fight did.
> 
> ...


Bingo.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> And I DEFINITELY don't think it qualifies as an excuse for violence - which, after all, is what a deliberate flagrant foul is.


The foul Collins doled out was harder than it should have been, and I don't advocate violence in a basketball game. I don’t advocate any of the behavior, but I’ve played in enough basketball games to not be surprised by a lot of it. I think that much of the behavior was the "wrong" way to behave, but its also not a shock once you start rubbing peoples noses in a blowout victory.

If Karl keeps running up the score in blowouts though, I would not be surprised to see more hard fouls doled out. Disagree?



Ron Cey said:


> But you aren't alone blaming Karl, K4E. Along with Nate Robinson and Isiah Thomas, that makes 3 of you.



There were a group of people that kept making the wrong choice in this incident, and each one caused the situation to escalate more.

I think the NBA nailed the worst violations with the harshest suspensions.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> The foul Collins doled out was harder than it should have been, and I don't advocate violence in a basketball game. I don’t advocate any of the behavior, but I’ve played in enough basketball games to not be surprised by a lot of it.
> 
> If Karl keeps running up the score in blowouts though, I would not be surprised to see more hard fouls doled out. *Disagree?*


Yes, I disagree. Because I don't think most coaches would instruct their players to flagrant foul opposing players in a blowout. 

Thats what fugazy, classless, punks do. Thats what Isiah does. Thats what Kenyon Martin or Isiah Rider would do if they were NBA coaches. 

That isn't what respectable professionals do. I think most - probably all save one - coaches in the NBA are respectable professionals. 

And I don't think Karl will do this against anyone else. Its obviously about Larry Brown. I don't care what Karl says to the contrary. He's lying.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> There were a group of people that kept making the wrong choice in this incident, and each one caused the situation to escalate more.
> 
> I think the NBA nailed the worst violations with the harshest suspensions.


You added this stuff later. 

I agree with all of this.


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## theyoungsrm (May 23, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> Yes, I disagree. Because I don't think most coaches would instruct their players to flagrant foul opposing players in a blowout.
> 
> Thats what fugazy, classless, punks do. Thats what Isiah does. Thats what Kenyon Martin or Isiah Rider would do if they were NBA coaches.
> 
> ...



instructions or not, this happens in bball. it is completely than an individual player does this same thing. if a team thinks that you're showing them up or running the score up, you might be asking for it. it ain't right. but as a oppoising coach you should expect it and not expose your best players to it.


ill ask again though, if thomas ordered a hit, why warn carmelo about it?


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## theyoungsrm (May 23, 2003)

if ozzie wants to bean a guy, i dont see him yelling out to the batters box and telling the teams top slugger "watch out for the tight one"


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

theyoungsrm said:


> instructions or not, this happens in bball. it is completely than an individual player does this same thing. if a team thinks that you're showing them up or running the score up, you might be asking for it. it ain't right. but as a oppoising coach you should expect it and not expose your best players to it.
> 
> 
> ill ask again though, if thomas ordered a hit, why warn carmelo about it?


Why warn about something that there is no need to be warned of? 

Based on his warning and his comments afterwards both Saturday night and again today, there is simply no other explanation.


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## theyoungsrm (May 23, 2003)

because isiah knows that in any ball pro, college, intramurals, recreational, players are not going to take too kindly to what they percive as embarassment. 

just because he knows that does not make him gulity of that.

maybe he did. but we certainly cant draw that conclusion from what we've seen. and him warning carmelo makes it doubtful


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

theyoungsrm said:


> but we certainly cant draw that conclusion from what we've seen.


I can.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

theyoungsrm said:


> ill ask again though, if thomas ordered a hit, why warn carmelo about it?


Did he warn him or did he threaten him? I think it was more a threat than a warning and I believe that's is why Thomas not getting suspended is so unjust.


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## theyoungsrm (May 23, 2003)

L.O.B said:


> Did he warn him or did he threaten him? I think it was more a threat than a warning and I believe that's is why Thomas not getting suspended is so unjust.


warn or threat either way....

if i want to put out a dirty cheap hit on someone i'm not gonna let him in on it.


what's more is that i think carmelo would of reacted differently to isiah if he threatened him before the fight and after when they talked again.

i dont see isiah telling carmelo that he about to send a goon out there to mess someone up is gonna get a mild reaction out of melo from b-more.


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## theyoungsrm (May 23, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> I can.



with little to no evidence and lots of emotion and bias.


but, you have a right to your opinon, so ill get off of it


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

I take IT telling Melo about the upcoming foul as a sign of respect from one former NBA superstar to a current NBA superstar.


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## theyoungsrm (May 23, 2003)

thomas is evil enough to send out a hit, but is nice enough to wan guys he likes. 

then the guy doesnt tell his team OR get mad at the guy doing the threatening?

likely.


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## Orange Julius Irving (Jun 28, 2004)

There is NO such thing as "running the score up" in my book.

In the history of ALL sports there are classic comebacks and/or classic choke-jobs.

Who's to say that some of those classic "choke-jobs" were the mistakes of coaches taking their foot of the gas and then the moment shifts and it's too late to sub players back in or whatever.

I think you open the door for all kinds of stuff if you don't play hard for 48 minutes.

I hate it when I hear coaches or managers complain that the other team "ran the score up" It's baby talk. Take the defeat like a man and try to return the favor the next time. If you can't do that. SHUT UP.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> I take IT telling Melo about the upcoming foul as a sign of respect from one former NBA superstar to a current NBA superstar.


 so those lesser NBA players aren't worth respect? 
Then again I would expect this type of "respect" from a man who orchestrated a walk out after the Bulls beat them in the playoffs.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Orange Julius Irving said:


> There is NO such thing as "running the score up" in my book.


Its obvious when you are playing a sport when the other side has conceded.

Its classless, IMO, when you are up 18 points with 1:30 left in a bb game when the other side has conceded to continue to throw haymakers. Bring in the scrubs, run out the clock and call it a night. 

Stay classy Denver.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

L.O.B said:


> so those lesser NBA players aren't worth respect?


The NBA is a league where the stars are treated differently. You know this from watching it.

I'm not defending anyone in this situation, BTW. Just giving my take on why IT warned Melo. 

Seemed like a little pissing match over a personal grudge between Karl and IT that escalated into something much worse. 

The sad thing for Denver is that their coach is the one who started the pissing match that night and they are the ones who are most harmed by it. A costly night for the Nuggets. 



> Then again I would expect this type of "respect" from a man who orchestrated a walk out after the Bulls beat them in the playoffs.


IT is a *****, no doubt about it.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Its obvious when you are playing a sport when the other side has conceded.
> 
> Its classless, IMO, when you are up 18 points with 1:30 left in a bb game when the other side has conceded to continue to throw haymakers. Bring in the scrubs, run out the clock and call it a night.
> 
> Stay classy Denver.


I am going to go back to what TommyB stated, the bigger issue is, Thomas' team quit. The Knicks quit and then they got pissed off that the other team didn't. Look at the Box score the game was with in question going into the 4th quarter(94-84) then the Knicks couldn't score more than 16 points in the final stanza. I am not sure that the Nuggets ran up the score as much as the Knicks just stopped trying.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> I take IT telling Melo about the upcoming foul as a sign of respect from one former NBA superstar to a current NBA superstar.


I don't think IT respect anything except himself and his ego.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

L.O.B said:


> I am going to go back to what TommyB stated, the bigger issue is, Thomas' team quit. The Knicks quit and then they got pissed off that the other team didn't.


Well, that's not what the NBA is issuing all those suspensions over.

If you're in the mood for a good 'ol fashioned Knicks bashing, feel free. 

Based on the suspensions given out, that does not appear to be what Stern thinks the bigger issue is. And I agree with him. Fists flying in a NBA game is a much bigger issue than a team playing flat.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

lgtwins said:


> I don't think IT respect anything except himself and his ego.


Why do you think he warned Melo then?


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

One of guys at ESPN Sports Reportes said it perfectly about IT complaining about Denver having 4 starters at the end of game.

"IT wanted to tell other coach how to coach that team? IT can't even coach his own team."


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> Why do you think he warned Melo then?


A threat. Warning. etc. But certainly not from a respect for another superstar.

You just can't use "respect" and "IT" in the same sentence. It's simple as that. Nate is same in that regard.

Anyway KMartin used to most despicable person (let alone player) in NBA to my eye. Now IT is. The smirk on his face during the interview said it all.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Well, that's not what the NBA is issuing all those suspensions over.
> 
> If you're in the mood for a good 'ol fashioned Knicks bashing, feel free.
> 
> Based on the suspensions given out, that does not appear to be what Stern thinks the bigger issue is. And I agree with him. Fists flying in a NBA game is a much bigger issue than a team playing flat.


Why did the fists fly? IT was pissed at Karl for kicking the crap out of his team when Karl didn't take his foot off the gas in the 4th quarter. Then in anger, Isiah orders one of his players to take a nugget down if they attempt to drive the lane. And btw I doubt any Knicks players have enough passion to be embarrassed. It was Isiah that was pissed and it's his actions that the lead to this fight. It's a shame the NBA doesn't punish Thomas for his part in the fight because this incident wouldn't of happened if Thomas hadn't been pissed and ordered the intentional foul.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

L.O.B said:


> Why did the fists fly? IT was pissed at Karl for kicking the crap out of his team when Karl didn't take his foot off the gas in the 4th quarter. Then in anger, Isiah orders one of his players to take a nugget down if they attempt to drive the lane. And btw I doubt any Knicks players have enough passion to be embarrassed. It was Isiah that was pissed and it's his actions that the lead to this fight. It's a shame the NBA doesn't punish Thomas for his part in the fight because this incident wouldn't of happened if Thomas hadn't been pissed and ordered the intentional foul.


Well, that's one way of looking at it I guess.

How many games should IT be suspended for, in your opinion, for asking his player to commit a hard foul while the other team is disrespecting his team in a blowout?


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Well, that's one way of looking at it I guess.
> 
> How many games should IT be suspended for, in your opinion, for asking his player to commit a hard foul while the other team is disrespecting his team in a blowout?


What did Cheney get for doing the same thing in an NCAA game and whatever the number then quadruple it.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

L.O.B said:


> What did Cheney get for doing the same thing in an NCAA game and whatever the number then quadruple it.


Wow.

OK, I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> Well, that's one way of looking at it I guess.
> 
> How many games should IT be suspended for, in your opinion, for asking his player to commit a hard foul while the other team is disrespecting his team in a blowout?


If IT and Knicks players really want to find out who's disrespecting whom, they only have to look in the mirror. Instead they hardfouled the opponent. And that is disrespectful. And a disgrace.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

lgtwins said:


> Instead they hardfouled the opponent. And that is disrespectful. And a disgrace.


I guess you and the NBA disagree.

Both organizations fined the same amount.

Nuggets players suspended more games.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Wow.
> 
> OK, I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one.


I guess Cheny was suspended for the remaining part of the season and then he retired so maybe that's a little steep  

Melo gets 15 games for something that wouldn't of happened if Thomas didn't get the wheels in motion. This fight started because of the bad blood between Karl and Thomas. Karl kicked Thomas's *** on the court and it pissed Thomas off, although Thomas didn't throw the 1st punch, it was his actions that caused an ugly incident on an NBA floor and then he doesn't get punished. Where is Stern getting his strategy for justice? Did Rummy get a job recently in the NBA offices?


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

Stern wasn't trying so much to ID one team or another as more culpable with the punishments he handed out. He just based them on the grade of wrongdoing. Worst offender? Biggest suspension. Then so on. Its quite a leap to think anything different.

No one can know what was in anyones head--Karl or Thomas.


----------



## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> I guess you and the NBA disagree.
> 
> Both organizations fined the same amount.
> 
> Nuggets players suspended more games.


Since when what Stern think affect or dictate what you thought or what I thought?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Soulful Sides said:


> Stern wasn't trying so much to ID one team or another as more culpable with the punishments he handed out.


True, but # of games suspended seems like a good measure of interpreted egregiousness of violation, yes?


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> True, but # of games suspended seems like a good measure of interpreted egregiousness of violation, yes?


For individuals, yes. Melo should not have hit him in the jaw after peace was about restored. Nate Robinson should have been a peacemaker instead of an agitator. Ultimately, it should have just been between Collins and Smith.

I do not understand why the organizations were fined, unless there was something that they were all warned about in the pre-season that we did not hear about.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> I take IT telling Melo about the upcoming foul as a sign of respect from one former NBA superstar to a current NBA superstar.



I see it as a threat. IT is saying, "Melo, if you keep running up the score on us, we're going to hurt you."


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

> League officials investigated whether Thomas might have ordered the hard foul that provoked the fight.
> 
> “My finding was that there was not adequate evidence upon which to make a determination,” Commissioner David Stern said in a conference call. “You have to find something in order to suspend someone. Even in the N.B.A., there’s a presumption of innocence.”
> --
> The league interviewed all participants from both teams “and watched the tape closely,” Stern said. “We’re acting on definitive information in issuing these penalties, although we’re not unmindful of the issues swirling about.”


I think there is a quiet threat in Sterns last 9 or 10 words.



> In Stern’s court of justice, it was clear that he had no tolerance for the players’ inability to control themselves and resume fighting once the initial turmoil appeared to have stop. He also issued a warning that any further lack of self-control — from players or coaches or organizations — would not be exonerated. He hinted the penalties would be stiffer and perhaps even involve expulsion from the league.
> --
> Stern’s announcement was most surprising because for the first time he held the general managers responsible for bringing players into the organization and, essentially, for their negligence in teaching them to avoid such situations.
> 
> ...


nytimes.com


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> Well, that's one way of looking at it I guess.
> 
> How many games should IT be suspended for, in your opinion, for asking his player to commit a hard foul while the other team is disrespecting his team in a blowout?



10-25.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> True, but # of games suspended seems like a good measure of interpreted egregiousness of violation, yes?



To a degree. The suspensions seem directly related to who landed the best shots.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-karl121806&prov=yhoo&type=lgns



> They forever worship at the altar of Dean Smith, the lost souls of the Carolina Family talking about basketball's honor, about a right way, as though they're these pristine disciples descending to cleanse the unwashed. *These phonies spread a gospel about an NBA of selfish players. Some sermon they love to spread, some load of pompous garbage.*
> 
> Together, George Karl and Larry Brown had going one of the biggest cons in the game, and on Monday it finally came crashing down on Karl, the Denver Nuggets' coach. *His silly sandbox desire for revenge on behalf of Brown, the exiled New York Knicks coach, cost the Nuggets a basketball season.*





> "I'll swear on my children's life that I never thought about running up the score," Karl said.
> 
> Just like Isiah Thomas swears that if the Continental Basketball Association had given his business plan a little more time, it would've made the cover of Fortune together.





> *Nobody likes Thomas, true, but that doesn't make him the instigator of Saturday night's melee.* He alone wasn't responsible because people believe he ruined the CBA, made a mess of the Knicks and maybe sexually harassed a female Knicks executive. Feel free to pile on Thomas, judge this Bob Knight protégé with those holy Dean Smith values, *but try telling yourself that there isn't a self-respecting coach in the NBA who wouldn't have told his team the same thing.*
> 
> *No more layups, fellas. No more dunks.*
> 
> ...





> Three weeks ago, Kobe Bryant scored 52 points on the Jazz at Staples Center. After the game, *Utah coach Jerry Sloan wished his Jazz had stopped letting Bryant leap and shoot over them, wished they had been more physical.* He suggested his team hadn't showed a lot of toughness *and concluded that it would've been much harder for Kobe to make shots lying on his back.*
> 
> *Everyone laughed, and no one blinked. Sloan wasn't advocating that the Jazz hurt Bryant, that they do something dirty. If Bryant had been clobbered, the story would've been played this way: That's good, old-fashioned, hard-hitting Midwestern basketball. That's Jerry Sloan being Jerry Sloan.*
> 
> Thomas does it and he's bringing the street into the NBA.





> *"It's very difficult to judge," NBA commissioner David Stern said. "If I had thought someone had given a specific order to injure another player, I would've reacted very differently."*
> 
> So Stern did the right thing: He called a jump ball on New York and Denver, fining each franchise $500,000 for breaking the spirit of the law.
> 
> ...


----------



## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

Some reaction from the Bulls:



> The Nuggets led 119-100 with 1:15 remaining when the fight began. Four of Denver’s five starters were on the floor, while Thomas had cleared his bench.
> 
> Bulls guard Ben Gordon couldn’t blame Thomas for being upset with that aspect of Denver’s game plan.
> 
> ...





> Asked about the team fines, Bulls coach Scott Skiles made a telling comment.
> 
> “I don’t know what (general manager) John (Paxson) could do about it if we were in a brawl like that, other than every single day set a tone of some sort of discipline around the franchise, which is exactly what we try to do and John does,” Skiles said.


from Stern discipline: Fighting won’t fly




> Luol Deng and P.J. Brown didn't offer much when asked about the subject. Ben Wallace, who received a five-game suspension for shoving Ron Artest in the biggest brawl in NBA history, didn't practice Monday because of a stiff neck and wasn't in the gym when reporters were granted access.
> 
> Even the typically opinionated Scott Skiles was brief. Asked if there is some unwritten code of sportsmanship for coaches dictating playing time during blowouts, Skiles paused for a long time.
> 
> "I guess I would say no," he said. "But I try to stay away from comment on what other teams do."


From Brawl talk? Most Bulls keep thoughts to themselves


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/16270075.htm

Isiah Thomas knows how to work the system
By David Moore

The Dallas Morning News

(MCT)

DALLAS - No one should be surprised that Isiah Thomas escaped the NBA's biggest brawl in the last two years without so much as a scratch, fine or suspension.

It's the same reason the Feds have been unable to get to Tony Soprano.

Anyone as smart as the New York Knicks coach knows how to work the system. If you're personable, dole out outrageous sums of money and have the right people fouling for you, it's hard to make a case that will stick.

Youse knows what I'm talking about?

David Stern knows. And while Thomas wasn't a specific target of the fines and suspensions issued Monday, the structure of the crackdown indicates they believe he was complicit.

Seven players - four from the Knicks and three from Denver - were suspended a total of 47 games for their part in the brawl that erupted at Madison Square Garden over the weekend. Carmelo Anthony, the league's leading scorer, got the worst of it. He was hit with a 15-game suspension that will keep him off the court for the Nuggets until Jan. 20.

The more interesting twist is this: Both clubs were fined half a million dollars. Stern is sending a message that he now holds teams accountable for the actions of their players. If there are future incidents, Stern said, "there will be more fines for general mangers and for coaches and for anyone in the management positions for the actions of the people that they manage.

"What I'm saying is if you continue to employ employees who engage in these actions, your organization is going to have to pay a price even beyond the suspensions that are involved here."

The league office investigated Thomas' role in this ugly episode. There were reports that the Knicks coach warned Anthony to stay out of the paint moments before the spark that ignited the fight - Mardy Collins collared Denver's J.R. Smith from behind and took him to the court - occurred.

Thomas said Monday he issued no such warning. He said he told Anthony and Marcus Camby that they were rubbing in their victory and shouldn't be behaving that way.

Stern said he was mindful of these reports but acted only on definitive information.

"My finding was that there was not adequate evidence upon which to make a determination," Stern said of Thomas. "Even in the NBA, there is presumption of innocence."

Unless you're Mark Cuban. And that brings us to the thoughts of the Mavericks owner.

Cuban wrote on his blog that he had no problem with the Knicks and Nuggets being fined $500,000 apiece. But instead of hiding it under the umbrella of management, Cuban suggests the commissioner should have assigned responsibility.

The owner, general manager and coach are responsible for establishing the culture of a team. If players are singled out and fined, why doesn't that apply to the individuals that establish the culture? It's a valid point.

It's also one that won't change. Corporations and management provide an institutional safeguard against the individual accountability that Cuban advocates. How do you determine what percent of the $500,000 fine is assessed to Thomas and what percent lies at the feet of Knicks owner James Dolan? I'm still not sure why the Nuggets were fined as much as the Knicks in this sordid affair, but that's a rant for another day.

Hard fouls and protecting the paint are part of the game. The NBA won't legislate this facet of the sport beyond the flagrant fouls that already exist. But Stern can address the misplaced machismo that underlies these confrontations.

Thomas and his players didn't apologize in the aftermath of Saturday's game. Thomas actually struck a defiant stance, blaming the Nuggets for having four of their starters on the court when it was clear they were going to win the game.

"The appropriate thing for anyone to say after this kind of situation is A) nothing or B) this is not something of which we can be proud or which we condone," Thomas said. "

Anyone that has a different public view than that is going to have to deal with me, because that is not what we're about, and that is not the example that we're setting."

You have to wonder what example Thomas is setting. As a player, he once sucker-punched teammate Bill Laimbeer after practice.

I know, I know. There are a lot of people who would like to punch Laimbeer. But the two were teammates.

Earlier this year, Thomas yelled for his players to break the feet of San Antonio's Bruce Bowen if he extended his leg under their shooters again.

"If I thought that somebody had given a specific order to injure another player, I would react very differently," Stern said of what happened against the Nuggets. "I don't believe that happened here."

Yeah. Tell that to Adrianna or one of the other characters who got whacked on The Sopranos.

Sorry. Wrong story line.

Sort of.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=ap_76o7iBlVg&refer=home

Dec. 18 (Bloomberg) -- The New York Knicks have good reason to be fighting mad. Make that reasons, plural. 

Like oh, let's say, their 9-17 record. Or the indignity that stems from the nightly hissing coming from the supporters, some of whom fork over $2,500 a game for the right to watch the debacle up close. 

Boo, they do. 

So you can understand the team's anger and frustration. Here's the catch, though: All that embarrassment, all that disdain, should be aimed inward, not at the Denver Nuggets -- or anyone else for that matter. 

And yet, fists flew. 

The most misguided of Knicks, the ones who buy into Isiah Thomas and his out-of-whack motivational tactics, tried to sell the notion of a silver lining in the wake of Saturday night's rumble with the Nuggets in which 10 players were ejected. 

It's a load of bunk. 

Take, for example, Jared Jeffries, who said sticking up for each other is a sign of affection. In other words, these guys may not be playing hard and winning but they care for one another. That, we are supposed to believe, is the magical first step in their becoming a cohesive, winning unit. 

It would be nice if the Knicks showed such a commitment to defense. 

``Clearly, this isn't how we or the NBA or anybody wants to be perceived,'' Thomas said after the ugliness, which was instigated by a flagrant foul committed by Knicks reserve Mardy Collins. 

History Lesson 

Only history suggests that it's exactly how Isiah wants to be perceived. 

Don't forget, Isiah was the ringleader of a basketball troupe dubbed the ``Bad-Boy'' Detroit Pistons, who thumped-and- bumped their way to a pair of National Basketball Association championships. 

It was just last week that Isiah was telling a small group of reporters about fear. 

He wanted the Knicks to fear his wrath. Angry fans should be ignored, he told us. An angry team president, on the other hand, is something to be reckoned with. 

According to ESPN.com, about a minute before the melee Isiah warned the Nuggets' Carmelo Anthony, the NBA's leading scorer and one of its marketing diamonds, to stay away from the paint. 

Even a basketball neophyte knows what that means: A hard foul was coming. 

Knick Anger 

The Knicks were angry. The score was lopsided. The Nuggets were showboating. Someone, anyone, had to pay. Why? 

Simple -- because the Nuggets had the audacity to leave some of their starters, including Anthony, on the floor even though the outcome had already been decided. 

Final score: Nuggets 123, Knicks 100. 

Of all the unmitigated gall! 

``I've never seen a team up by 20 keep their starters in,'' says Knicks guard Nate Robinson, whose tough-guy routine was a reason the incident escalated into a free-for-all. ``They wanted to embarrass us. It was a slap in the face to us as a team and franchise.'' 

Do you believe this guy? 

The Knicks don't need another team on the floor to get embarrassed these days. Things are so bad that embarrassment is self-generated. 

As for slaps in the face, perhaps Robinson should be reminded of the ticket prices. Fans pay big money to see big effort. They haven't gotten it. 

``What they can't deal with is indifference, a lack of passion,'' is how former Knicks coach Jeff Van Gundy sized up the team's fans. 

Knowing Better 

But it's hard to blame Robinson, a second-year player who is just parroting what he thinks his coach and team president wants to hear. He doesn't know any better. Isiah should. 

Then again, though, it was Isiah himself who about a week ago admonished the fans, who had chanted for his dismissal. 

``I can't expect them to understand the game the way I understand it,'' Isiah said of the fans. 

Talk about a lack of understanding. You don't poke fun at those who pay the bills. 

Besides, he's just plain wrong. 

Knicks fans understand plenty. 

And who doesn't understand winning? Sadly, any understanding of winning at the Garden these days comes by way of watching the opponent. 

Fight Night 

The Knicks offer little -- except fight night. 

The NBA suspended seven players, including Anthony, who received a 15-game ban. In all, four Knicks were suspended a total of 21 games, leaving already woeful New York shorthanded tonight at home against the Utah Jazz. 

Just another reason for the Knicks to be fighting mad, I guess. 

Isiah should scrap the Knicks-against-the-world speeches. He should tell his players that he's embarrassed to be their coach, that the Knicks are a laughingstock, that they deserve every derisive cheer from the stands. 

He should name names. 

Since the players have shown a willingness to throw punches, Isiah shouldn't feel the need to pull any.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> “I definitely think they shouldn’t have had their starters in when they’re up by 20,” Gordon said. “Most coaches in the league take their guys out around the three-minute mark when they’re up by 20. I agree with him right there.


I'm shocked that Ben Gordon would say such a thing. To read this board, one would think that Skiles' taking Gordon out (only after the other starters had been taken out) with about 2:00 minutes left in the Milwaukee blow out, thereby depriving him of his 40 point game, would outrage and discourage Commissioner Gordon as part of Skiles' continued efforts to crush his career.

Evidently Ben not only understands, but agrees. Who'da thunk it?


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## thebullybully (Jan 26, 2005)

I'm so tired of anything they all have to say about it. I don't even care if there are fights in the NBA. I don't think fights are a disgrace (the detroit brawl was different.) On the court fights are part of the ego BS, and they are childish, but whatever, it's not my face, and one or two game suspensions still seem fine to me.

BUT... The New York market has a team that still charges the same price to sit and boo their team when they have given up. I'm not sorry to say, no team should ever give in even if they are down 40 points. The injury possibility arguement is ridiculous. 

The price is the same for a close loss or a blowout loss. They market the stars. The fans pay to see the stars. Unless they are handing out refunds or tickets to another game when they give in, like if the film breaks and can't be fixed at a theater you get a rain check, then get on the floor and play ball.

Back your product!


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Denver Media Claims Pro-NY Bias in Stern's Ruling

http://www.thedenverdailynews.com/?page=details&id=5894&t=Archive

NBA stands for New York Bias, As usual 
By DDN STAFF REPORT - December 18, 2006 
Welcome to Town Talk, the world’s only daily column that believes the fans should police the NBA rather than the commissioner, because the commissioner clearly dropped the basketball over the basketbrawl game between the Denver Nuggets and the New York Knicks Saturday.

Denver’s Carmelo Anthony, the league’s leading scorer, was suspended 15 games for his punch in Saturday’s melee. Fellow Nugget J.R. Smith got 10 games off for his involvement, and various other players on both teams were issued suspensions as well.

Of course in New York and Denver fans will not be impartial, because that runs against human nature. 

But we could not understand why Knicks head coach Isiah Thomas was neither fined nor suspended for instigating the whole melee.

For those who missed the ugly incident, Thomas warned Anthony before the whole melee not to go to the paint — indicating there would be shenanigans.

There were, as the Knick’s Mardy Collins tackled the Nuggets’ Smith while Smith was going for a lay-up late in the game. Obviously, the vicious attack was ordered by Thomas. To steal a line from the movie “Fletch,” it doesn’t take Sherlock Holmes to figure that one out. Larry Holmes could figure that out.

Well, of course we in Denver would want to see Thomas punished. But as we said earlier, we’re not impartial — we can’t pretend to be, because we’re in Denver. That’s just being honest.

So we decided to see what the rest of the country thinks about the incident (alright, we looked on ESPN.com) and learned that the rest of the country overwhelmingly agrees with us. 

Most believe the punishment for Anthony and all the other players involved was just. We agree. Anthony cannot throw a punch and expect to get away with it. 

However, about 80 percent of those who responded to the ESPN poll thought Thomas should have been either fined or suspended, and more than 70 percent believe Thomas should be fired over this incident. 

We cannot agree more, and wonder why the league didn’t see it this way. 

This kind of thing is unlikely to happen in the NHL. If there is a melee with five minutes or less left in an NHL game, the coach earns an automatic suspension — even if that coach had absolutely nothing to do with the fight. The players involved also earn an automatic suspension, and those suspensions can be lengthened after an investigation. 

Funny, but even though players can fight in the NHL, you never seem to see any end-of-the-game shenanigans in the NHL since that rule took effect last season. 

Bottom line: Thomas should be suspended at least as long as Anthony, if not longer. Anthony acted like a young man with no control over his emotions, and he now has 15 games to think about it.

But shouldn’t we expect the coaches to act more maturely? If a coach can’t be expected to keep his cool, how can we expect a man in his early 20s to act more mature than a coach in his 40s?

And if the basketball shoe was on the other foot and Anthony played with the Knicks, the Nuggets were a dismal 9-17 like the lowly Knicks, the game was in Denver and Karl was the one who ordered the hard foul, do you believe Anthony would be suspended as long and Karl would get off unpunished? Neither do we.

We’re smelling a little East Coast bias here.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

i'm stunned IT didn't get fined/suspended/fired. what a punk. 

he must have polaroids of david stern with goats or something.

jimmy dolan made his bed, now he's lying in it.

heh heh.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

If Stern really wanted definitive evidence he could have hired a lip reader to verify that Thomas made a verbal threat. I'm sure the fines would have covered the cost.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

*Hubie Brown*

“When I do clinics, and we do philosophy, I get to the issue of guys rolling up the score on you,” the sage said. “On any level, doesn’t matter. You cannot win an argument that he’s running up the score. You cannot win an argument with anyone in the building, any fan, any athletic director, any management person. You can’t win. Why? Because your team is down for any number of reasons: He does not have to substitute his people if he so decides to hammer you by 50. Now, we have all been in a few games during the season – I always say there are five you cannot do anything about. You can’t help your team tonight, and they’ll lose by 30; or you might win by 30, and can’t screw it up. Five games a year, okay? All you’re doing is exhausting yourself and giving yourself agida by worrying about it. All you have to know is if you’re in the business for a while, the pendulum always swings, and your opportunity (for payback) will come – if that’s what you want.

"So I try to get guys to understand this. Stop worrying about whether the guy is beating you by 20 or 30. Because he might have a reason for doing what he’s doing other than what you think. You’re assuming a negative reason. And as we’ve seen here, George Karl came out with some very legitimate reasons – he’s blown six games where he’s had double-digit advantages in the last six minutes.

“I also say this: When I’m going to foul you on a hard foul, we are never going to allow our guy to hit a guy in the head. I’m fining you – never mind the league. Because that is a bad play. We’re all in this as professional people, and you have to honor him. When you take a hard foul, you take it from the elbow down as he’s going to the basket. And that is a legitimate, professional, NBA hard foul. Now, if I take that arm down hard, if it’s a flagrant, so what? But I am never going to injure you by makign contact with the head. And if you’re from behind, you have no recourse.

“I have been on both ends, you know that. We took our lumps (with the Knicks) for a few years. We had guys come up from the CBA, and three guys on the injured list… my point is, you’re going to coach yourself, and somewhere during the game, your team just can’t play any better, and you’re coaching every single basket. The frustration is going to come in, but you must control your frustration and understand that the game is played for 48 minutes, or 40, or 32. And you can’t worry about what the other guy is doing. Coach your own team.”


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