# Gasol to Chicago dead...



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

According to Memphis Commercial Appeal beat writer Ron Tillery. According to him, West wants two of the core four.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Looks like part of that Mebarak quote in your signature is coming true.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Jerry West is an idiot if he thinks he is getting it, and he might be passing on fair value. Obviously things COULD, key word could change if Gasol stays, and things begin to turn around next season with Durant or Oden, but if Memphis doesn't land top 2 pick, they just aren't that good of a team, so Gasol will become an even larger malcontent, and cause Memphis to get even less value for him.

The idea floated around of "Nocioni, Thabo, PJ Brown, and 2007 Pick" Fits all criteria of what the Memphis owner outlined.

Quality Young Players: Nocioni/Thabo...check.
Cap Relief: PJ Brown...check.
Gives them another position in this draft: 2007 pick...check.

I have a sneaking suspicion though that Deng or Gordon not being involved isn't what is holding up a deal from taking place. I have strong feeling that neither Gordon or Deng were ever part of the main deal being discussed. I think its coming down to 2007 pick vs. 2008 pick. Paxson loves to use draft picks himself, and he is probably treating this pick like gold, and that is probably the stumbling block in getting Gasol. We are just a solid contender with Hinrich-Gordon-Deng-Gasol....but Paxson, is thinking big, with Hinrich-Thabo-Gordon-Deng-Nocioni-Thomas, landing that #1 pick and having a dynasty with Oden. I think the pick is the thing that will prevent the deal from happening.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Good. I would rather not have him than overpay as has been suggested countless times.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Maybe this is West's way of saying Sayonara to Grizzlies ownership and Gasol whose leaking of the trade demand made execution of a favorable trade to Memphis impossible.

My guess is that West never really had any serious intention of trading Gasol, and was simply demonstrating to the guilty party (whoever it was) that leaking private conversations with his boss is not the best way to get him to do what is wanted.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Who is the four? Gordon, Deng, Hinrich and? Nocioni? 

I love my boys, but I'd give up any two of those four with the exception of Gordon. Nocioni and Hinrich works best for us. That leaves us with Wallace, Gasol, Deng, Gordon, Duhon. That's a pretty damn good lineup, balanced on both ends, and inside/outside. 

Can't agree with Paxson on that.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

K.C. more or less corroborates this report:



> As it stands, there is little, as talk around the league suggests the Pau Gasol talks are all but dead unless the Grizzlies drastically lower their asking price by Thursday.


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...sbits,1,1337472.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines

I don't know whether to blame West, the media, or both, but just about anyone could have told you weeks ago when trade talks first started that West wouldn't get a deal that good. Maybe someone else will ultimately offer a package that competes with Noc and Kirk in terms of value but I see that as the upper bounds of a return for Gasol and I wonder if West would even accept that package since it seems substantially less valuable than a package containing Gordon or Deng. Seriously, what a waste of time. There's no reason for weeks of media coverage and trade talks if West was more willing to keep Gasol than trade him all along.



McBulls said:


> Maybe this is West's way of saying Sayonara to Grizzlies ownership and Gasol whose leaking of the trade demand made execution of a favorable trade to Memphis impossible.
> 
> My guess is that West never really had any serious intention of trading Gasol, and was simply demonstrating to the guilty party (whoever it was) that leaking private conversations with his boss is not the best way to get him to do what is wanted.


Interesting theory. It makes as much sense as anything I can come up with because as I said actively shopping a star player - you almost never get full value in return for a star calliber player - when the asking price was this high makes absolutely no sense. Another idea I can come up with is simply trying to quell Pau's trade demand. Either way, it seems likely there were some type of head games going on.



Sir Patchwork said:


> I love my boys, but I'd give up any two of those four with the exception of Gordon. Nocioni and Hinrich works best for us. That leaves us with Wallace, Gasol, Deng, Gordon, Duhon. That's a pretty damn good lineup, balanced on both ends, and inside/outside.
> 
> Can't agree with Paxson on that.


Not to pick on you but being willing to give up Deng/Hinrich but not Gordon/Noc strikes me as borderline insanity. Over these last few weeks, I learned some things about how some Memphis and Bulls fans value various Bulls and Grizzlies players that I would rather not have known. While I'm disappointed that we weren't able to land Gasol at a good price, I'm relieved that after Thursday the trade value and long term value of our players won't be probed quite so much for at least a little while.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

JeremyB0001 said:


> Not to pick on you but being willing to give up Deng/Hinrich but not Gordon/Noc strikes me as borderline insanity. Over these last few weeks, I learned some things about how some Memphis and Bulls fans value various Bulls and Grizzlies players that I would rather not have known. While I'm disappointed that we weren't able to land Gasol at a good price, I'm relieved that after Thursday the trade value and long term value of our players won't be probed quite so much for at least a little while.


Gasol is a lot better than anyone on our team, but if there is one guy I'm protecting in the trade, it's Ben Gordon. He would team best with Gasol. I love Hinrich, but he wouldn't fit with Gasol as well as Gordon, in my opinion. Gasol is not a guy who takes big shots, he is a guy who has great post game and draws attention in the paint, and is a gifted passer. Gordon has the moxxy that Gasol doesn't, and would feed well off of Gasol's attention. 

I love Deng and Nocioni, but they are wings and wings are a dime a dozen in the NBA. So basically, Deng or Nocioni would be one of the definites I'd part with for a player of Gasol's calibre. Then Hinrich before Gordon in this particular situation. If it was a player like Kobe or Wade, Hinrich would be a better fit and I'd be more willing to part with Gordon.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

I don't know what good Gasol would do for us dead.


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## soonerterp (Nov 13, 2005)

spongyfungy said:


> I don't know what good Gasol would do for us dead.


Have a couple of big guys carry him around _Weekend At Bernie's_ style ... but that would be really cumbersome, not to mention cruel.

Seriously, though ... Gasol is good but he's not worth two out of Gordon, Deng or Hinrich (I know there's another one but to me those are the big 3 that shouldn't go anywhere).


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The obvious:

1) There will be no slamming of nuts in the drawers.
2) In two days the "season is a wash" thread is bumpworthy.
3) Is there some kind of Big Ben like gong sound they can play for Malik Allen?
4) Two presents for PJ Brown:


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Gasol is a lot better than anyone on our team, but if there is one guy I'm protecting in the trade, it's Ben Gordon. He would team best with Gasol. I love Hinrich, but he wouldn't fit with Gasol as well as Gordon, in my opinion. Gasol is not a guy who takes big shots, he is a guy who has great post game and draws attention in the paint, and is a gifted passer. Gordon has the moxxy that Gasol doesn't, and would feed well off of Gasol's attention.
> 
> I love Deng and Nocioni, but they are wings and wings are a dime a dozen in the NBA. So basically, Deng or Nocioni would be one of the definites I'd part with for a player of Gasol's calibre. Then Hinrich before Gordon in this particular situation. If it was a player like Kobe or Wade, Hinrich would be a better fit and I'd be more willing to part with Gordon.


I have some issues with the notion that Gordon is more valuable than Deng going forward if Gasol is required, but I don't think it's an unreasonable opinion. What struck me was that you value Gordon so much more than Deng that you would trade two members of the "big three" when you could include Gordon instead and party only with Noc who most consider to have substantially less worth than Hinrich.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> I have a sneaking suspicion though that Deng or Gordon not being involved isn't what is holding up a deal from taking place. I have strong feeling that neither Gordon or Deng were ever part of the main deal being discussed. I think its coming down to 2007 pick vs. 2008 pick. Paxson loves to use draft picks himself, and he is probably treating this pick like gold, and that is probably the stumbling block in getting Gasol. We are just a solid contender with Hinrich-Gordon-Deng-Gasol....but Paxson, is thinking big, with Hinrich-Thabo-Gordon-Deng-Nocioni-Thomas, landing that #1 pick and having a dynasty with Oden. I think the pick is the thing that will prevent the deal from happening.


This seems like speculation that contradicts with all the most recent reports. There have been four articles in three days claming that West wants two players from the big four. I have no idea how much Pax values the draft pick but if his major concern was missing out on Oden he could just protect the pick.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

:yay:


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## H.O.V.A. (Jul 13, 2005)

I'd be down to part ways with Hinrich and Noc if it meant landing Gasol. I doubt Memphis would settle for it. We'd also have to declare martial law in Chicago.


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## Rodman (Feb 5, 2004)

spongyfungy said:


> I don't know what good Gasol would do for us dead.


:lol:


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## Reignman (Feb 15, 2005)

spongyfungy said:


> I don't know what good Gasol would do for us dead.


looool :lol:


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

"Dead" trade talks often are quickly revived in the closing hours.

But if West wants two of the core for Gasol, thats just insanity from Chicago's perspective. It suggests that Memphis was never really serious about moving Gasol in the first place. 

Which, frankly, is what West actually came out and said several times. I just didn't believe him.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> "Dead" trade talks often are quickly revived in the closing hours.
> 
> But if West wants two of the core for Gasol, thats just insanity from Chicago's perspective. It suggests that Memphis was never really serious about moving Gasol in the first place.
> 
> Which, frankly, is what West actually came out and said several times. I just didn't believe him.


You wouldn't trade Deng and Noc for Gasol?

Read Miz's thread with Heisley. He's the owner and he's pretty explicit about what he's looking for. He may as well have said "Deng, pick and Brown will get it done.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> According to Memphis Commercial Appeal beat writer Ron Tillery. According to him, West wants two of the core four.


How do you feel about a trade _not_ happening? Do you think the fans will be gun-shy on supporting Gasol? Is the situation irreconcilable? It's been nice to have you posting here over the last month.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> Read Miz's thread with Heisley. He's the owner and he's pretty explicit about what he's looking for. He may as well have said "Deng, pick and Brown will get it done.


If Deng, pick and Brown realy would get it done and it doesn't get done, then Pax will have made a major blunder, IMO. As I've said, I've waffled over whether Deng or Gordon is the bigger loss, and right now I lean towards wanting to move Gordon over Deng, but Deng, pick and Brown is a fair deal for both sides.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> Do you think the fans will be gun-shy on supporting Gasol?


You should be able to get a reasonably accurate answer to that question. I think the entire Memphis Grizzlies fanbase posts here. All three of them. (and good guys, all..)


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> If Deng, pick and Brown realy would get it done and it doesn't get done, then Pax will have made a major blunder, IMO. As I've said, I've waffled over whether Deng or Gordon is the bigger loss, and right now I lean towards wanting to move Gordon over Deng, but Deng, pick and Brown is a fair deal for both sides.


Agreed. This is the drum I've been beating for weeks.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

H.O.V.A. said:


> I'd be down to part ways with Hinrich and Noc if it meant landing Gasol. I doubt Memphis would settle for it. We'd also have to declare martial law in Chicago.


That's a good point. When I read the quote, I thought the same thing about moving Hinrich and Nocioni; but that just isn't a possibility for Paxson. They have that whole white thing going for them. (Well, Noc isn't white, but that doesn't seem to matter to fans.) And, Chicago is Chicago.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Nocioni and Hinrich works best for us.


Agreed. Noc, Hinrich and I'd even throw in a future protected first. Let's get it done Pax.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> That's a good point. When I read the quote, I thought the same thing about moving Hinrich and Nocioni; but that just isn't a possibility for Paxson. They have that whole white thing going for them. (Well, Noc isn't white, but that doesn't seem to matter to fans.) And, Chicago is Chicago.


I'm not up on the classifications, what is Noc if he isn't white?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Dude's about as pasty as they come.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> I'm not up on the classifications, what is Noc if he isn't white?


50% silk, 50% rayon. And some wool.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> How do you feel about a trade _not_ happening? Do you think the fans will be gun-shy on supporting Gasol? Is the situation irreconcilable? It's been nice to have you posting here over the last month.


It is a win for us either way IMO depending upon the package.

I assume (Deng, NY pick, Brown) is the least we would take. I think Deng is going to be a helluva player and Pau's post scoring could be replaced by either one of our draft picks. We would be very young and would spend another year in the lottery, barring unforseen development by Gay, Deng or another young player. This would allow us another shot at a post scorer, more size, an elite PG, or a shut down perimeter defender. I think we would then be a playoff team in 2008-09 with a championship core.

If we keep Pau we will more than likely be in the same position with more upper level talent and less depth. We would also have all of our bad contracts. I think the greatest benefit to dealing Gasol would be to unleash Cardinal.

I will not be crushed either way. 

I think the fanbase as a whole would be forgiving of Gasol as soon as we start winning. However, if we started out slow next season, it could be brutal. If he continues to run his mouth the situation will more than likely be unsustainable. I don't deny his talent, just his desire to perform at top level in Memphis. I would deal him this week if I were the GM simply because Memphis, as a market, cannot afford to be saddled with that contract on a player that might start dogging it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-070221



> Of course we haven't forgotten Pau Gasol.
> 
> But there's a reason we haven't mentioned him until now: Gasol-to-Chicago, by all accounts, is less likely to happen at this point than anything involving Kidd, Bibby or Carter.
> 
> ...


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> I'm not up on the classifications, what is Noc if he isn't white?


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Chicago simply isn't convinced that Gasol, who has never won a playoff game in this league, is an over-the-top acquisition, even in an Eastern Conference seemingly there to be won and in spite of its obvious need for a low-post scoring threat. The Bulls also believe that this won't be their only shot at Gasol, assuming the Spaniard is shopped again around the draft.
> 
> It seems clear, furthermore, that teams like Memphis, Chicago and Boston -- pretty much anyone with any sort of shot at a top-two pick in June -- has incentive to wait until the draft lottery in May before making major moves. Landing one of those first two picks, provided Greg Oden and Kevin Durant are both declaring for the draft, can change a club's long-term outlook in a hurry.


If this is an accurate assessment of John Paxson's thinking, the Fire Paxson club needed to be resurrected five minutes ago.

Gasol's not an over-the-top acquisition, but we'll have another shot at him later, when it'll cost us a lot more to get him?

Come on, Secaucus. Paxie needs a franchise player.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> I assume (Deng, NY pick, Brown) is the least we would take. I think Deng is going to be a helluva player and Pau's post scoring could be replaced by either one of our draft picks. We would be very young and would spend another year in the lottery, barring unforseen development by Gay, Deng or another young player.


I think another year of development from Gay, plus another year development of Deng, plus a lottery big man gets Memphis out of the lottery next year.

Not contenders, by any great shakes, but I think they are out of the lottery.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Sometimes it seems like GMs are extremely bad hagglers. When your owner comes out publicly and says we want "a good, young player, cap relief, and a draft pick" and then your privately telling your haggling partner that you want "two good young players, cap relief, and two draft picks" that means that not only is their miscommunication on your side, but that the chances of you doing anything from this point forward is slim. I think Gasol would be a good fit here. Basically, West wants two of Deng, Gordon, Hinrich, and Nocioni and I'm guessing wouldn't take Deng and Nocioni, plus either Tyrus/Thabo/'07 1st and P.J. Brown. I'm sorry but giving up Gordon and Deng is laughable, Hinrich and Gordon leaves us with no backcourt, Deng and Hinrich would be the least deplorable deal, but its still a high price to pay. Phily got Andre Miller, Joe Smith, and a couple of picks for a top 10 player in the league. If West thinks he's getting double that for Gasol, he's a nutjob.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

T.Shock said:


> If West thinks he's getting double that for Gasol, he's a nutjob.


Or West realizes that he doesn't HAVE to trade Pau and if he doesn't get what he wants, he won't.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

You know, I wonder if the Bulls traded the 2007 pick unconditionally and filler, if that would be enough. That would certainly make sense for the Bulls. Memphis gets an extra 7-10% chance of landing Oden and Durant.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> You know, I wonder if the Bulls traded the 2007 pick unconditionally and filler, if that would be enough. That would certainly make sense for the Bulls. Memphis gets an extra 7-10% chance of landing Oden and Durant.


It's only a 3.5% chance right now (i think).


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

such sweet thunder said:


> You know, I wonder if the Bulls traded the 2007 pick unconditionally and filler, if that would be enough. That would certainly make sense for the Bulls. Memphis gets an extra 7-10% chance of landing Oden and Durant.


Um, isn't it already unconditional? we can't protect it


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

I don't want to rehash this but Sam Smith, with all his journalistic caution, made that up and then later repented. I've seen nothing that would make me believe that the pick cannot be protected. 

Johnston, your're right, 3.5% is probably not going to do it!


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

As far as we know, West has been very consistent. From the first day he specified that he wanted both Deng and Gordon in exchange for Gasol. He still says it. If the Bulls had delivered them he would have probably made the trade. He's not negotiating, he's telling. The reason for this is that he never really wanted to trade Gasol in the first place. 

Gasol has a reasonable contract and is a young big to build the team around. West is not going to let him go unless he gets better value in return -- even if the owner wishes he would for financial reasons. After all, West is retiring, and the Logo doesn't give a flying farthing about the promises or financial woes of a half-interested, temporary owner who knows nothing about basketball.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

McBulls said:


> As far as we know, West has been very consistent. From the first day he specified that he wanted both Deng and Gordon in exchange for Gasol. He still says it. If the Bulls had delivered them he would have probably made the trade. He's not negotiating, he's telling. The reason for this is that he never really wanted to trade Gasol in the first place.
> 
> Gasol has a reasonable contract and is a young big to build the team around. West is not going to let him go unless he gets better value in return -- even if the owner wishes he would for financial reasons. After all, West is retiring, and the Logo doesn't give a flying farthing about the promises or financial woes of a half-interested, temporary owner who knows nothing about basketball.


I considered that, but if Heisley actually cares... and by his very public presence it appears he does, wouldn't he just go over West's head and either axe him immediately for insubordination or just let him play out the string with no real power?


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

Trade Bengordon + Noc+PJ brown, west wants 2 of 4cores, ok there you go. we keep the pick, fillers like tyrus, thabo. 
the more i think aboutit, the less willing i want to trade deng, i rather give up gordon.
i'm still confused on why West wouldnt ask for deng+knicks pick+someone like thabo. to be it's a better deal.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

MikeDC said:


> I considered that, but if Heisley actually cares... and by his very public presence it appears he does, wouldn't he just go over West's head and either axe him immediately for insubordination or just let him play out the string with no real power?


He could do that, or he could just wait a few months and conduct the fire sale in the summer with a new GM. New GMs typically make a lot of personnel moves anyway, so the publicity hit could be ameliorated a bit by hazy statements about "new directions" or "fresh starts", etc. 

Alternatively, he could just sell the team and let the new owners make decisions about Gasol's and the Grizzlies fate.


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## ProudBFan (Apr 29, 2003)

I know you guys need an inside offensive presense in order to go deep in the playoffs this season, and that is the main reason Paxson was targeting Gasol. Buzz around Portland is that the Blazers have been talking with the Bulls - kind of a "Plan C" for the Bulls in the event Plan A (KG) and Plan B (Gasol) fall through.

Some questions for you, assuming for a second that the Gasol deal is dead:

1. Do you think Zach would fill the role Paxson was targeting Gasol for?
2. Would you be willing to give Zach a shot if the payoff is going deep in the playoffs this season?
3. Who would you be willing to part with to get Zach? The Blazers need perimeter shooting, perimeter defense, and interior defense for their fine-tuning efforts. Picks are also on the table.

PBF


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Yeah, did anyone miss the tidbit about what Memphis' owner said?

-A good player
-Another position in the draft.
-Salary relief.

Nocioni, Thabo, Knicks Pick, and Brown fits the bill.

Is Thabo holding it up....a shaky rookie who doesn't look to be a big point guard like Pax had thought, but just another wing....don't think so.

Nocioni...he's good and all, but we have Luol Deng ahead of him already, and Khryapa is Nocioni lite.

PJ Brown...no way, didn't we acquire him just to trade him?

The pick is obviously what is holding up the deal. Paxson is dreaming of adding Oden or Durant to the team and having a dynasty.

That is what the Grizzlies are probably trying to get. West is dreaming of getting BOTH Oden and Durant. Imagine if the lottery worked out in his favor like that.

They could potentially do their offseason like this.

Draft Oden and Durant.
Sign Darko Milicic.
Resign Nocioni.

Thabo Sefolosha
Andres Nocioni
Rudy Gay
Kyle Lowry
Mike Miller
Darko
Greg Oden
Kevin Durant

Thats rebuilding fast, thats the Memphis dream. I garauntee the pick is what is holding up this trade.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> I garauntee the pick is what is holding up this trade.


i love the smell of rampant speculation in the morning.....it smells like victory......:drool2:


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## ¹²³ (Jan 8, 2003)

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edited to embed clip. tb#1


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Gasol is alive and well. It's the Grizzlies that appear to be dead.


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## Cyanobacteria (Jun 25, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> I'm not up on the classifications, what is Noc if he isn't white?


Steel wrapped with barbed wire.:rbanana: :wbanana: :rbanana: :wbanana: :rbanana:


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