# Clippers court Knight



## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

http://www.ocregister.com/sports/clippers-knight-guard-1781415-strickland-season



> Knight, an experienced floor general and a strong defender, would fill the Clippers’ need for an experienced backup to incumbent starter Sam Cassell. Bill Strickland, Knight’s agent, said Friday he has had several discussions with Clippers coach Mike Dunleavy and that the Clippers made a preliminary contract offer.
> 
> "It’s going to be a continuing process. We’re trying to work around a (contract) number,’’ said Strickland, when asked if there was anything imminent on the horizon. "But I have to say that we’re very interested in the Clippers."





> "The Clippers are at the top of Brevin’s list," Strickland said. "I’m very optimistic that something can be worked out, but I’ve been in this business long enough to know that nothing is final until a contract is signed."


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Decent fit, but it'd be better if the guy could hit a jumper to save his life.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Blah, not a good fit for our team. I dont want any part of him. Lets get our need in trade. This offense works best when we have a PG who is an offensive threat from outside. Its why we werent that great when livingston was our PG, he couldnt hit a three. Its why we were decent when we had brunson..he was a scrub, but he could distribute and hit the occasional three. Its why we were average with hart...hart wasnt a three point shooter, but he did make a few. Its why we were a superteam with a healthy Cassell. Its why we would have been great with francis.

Put a PG who cant shoot to save his life, and i dont think it bodes well for us. Please please explore trade options before wasting precious salary cap on brevin knight. Jason hart is better than brevin knight. We dont have enough pure scorers on this team to make a pass first PG (and a good one at that) worth it for us.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

hobojoe said:


> Decent fit, but it'd be better if the guy could hit a jumper to save his life.


BK has developed a good midrange jumper now,but you'd have to have actually watched him recently to know that.It would be easier to just repeat things that everyone else says of course.His only big problem recently has been that he's been plagued by nagging injuries


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

hobojoe said:


> Decent fit, but it'd be better if the guy could hit a jumper to save his life.


I KNOW ****

he wont help us "win games"


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

Outside of a trade this is probably one of the best options left in FA. Knight did pretty well on the Bobcats, I wonder how much better his APG will be when he has players who can really play. I think if he can come in and get about 6-7 assists per game that would be a success. 

What does everyone think is a fair contract for him, in terms of years and money?


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

For our teams needs i wouldnt offer more than 2 million. And i doubt he would take that. 

Just what we need, a 5 million dollar non 3 point shooting, super injury prone PG. If its going to be an injury prone player at that price, it better be someone like steve francis..


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## hutcht02 (Sep 22, 2006)

This concerns me, only because last season he made 4.2 Million, and our MLE is only worth about 5.5 Million. We can't have Brevin Knight and Al Thornton, even though they're nice pick-ups, be the only changes we make this summer if we expect to make the play-offs. We need to keep a generous amount of the MLE (more the 1.3 Million in my mind) to use on another shoooter or big-man. If Knight demands the full 4.2 he made last year I say we go elsewhere, because there are still some nice options left that are cheaper.

That in mind, if we can manage to get him for around 2 or 2.5 mil, I say we turn our attention to Sasha Pavlovic, Andray Blatche, or Desmond Mason, players that can catapolt us back into contention and fill needs that are more than just temporary.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

another bad thing about knight is unlike cassell, livingston, brunson, other guys we have had, he under no circumstances at all could ever have time at the 2.


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## hutcht02 (Sep 22, 2006)

yamaneko said:


> another bad thing about knight is unlike cassell, livingston, brunson, other guys we have had, he under no circumstances at all could ever have time at the 2.


Good point. Truth be told, I'd rather sign Boykins than Knight right now.


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## TakingitbyStorm (Jul 1, 2007)

I actually would welcome Knight. His midrange game is decent, and he has come up with some big shots when he played for the Bobcats. I would still rather have Jack than about anyone else including "Stevie". Knight's D and passing alone make him likeable for me. Brev could be a good fit with this team's makeup. Hart showed when you penetrate and get the ball moving this team can win without a scoring pg. This was Liv's problem, he wouldn't drive much. 
Players also tend to shoot better when they are surrounded with better shooters so I'm confident if Brev is healthy he could be a plus for this team.

The only thing I don't like is that him pairing up with Cassell means that we would need some real insurance if one of the two go down.
Are Jordan or Diaz ready to play back-up minutes at this level yet. Cassell is going to miss some games as will Knight. We would just have to hope they don't miss them at the same time.

This would probably mean if Knight were signed that the last roster spot would be left open for some scrub in the worst case scenario.


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## matador1238 (May 3, 2006)

Watch, we will probably spend alot on Knight..... 
I rather have Eddie House than Knight..........


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

matador1238 said:


> Watch, we will probably spend alot on Knight.....
> I rather have Eddie House than Knight..........


House is just a streaky off guard shooter. I'd like him back as well, but we don't need another SG in a PG's body when we can ink Diaz easily. Now, if we had an extra roster spot, and could get House back, I would do it in an instant.

As far as Knight goes, he's my 2nd choice currently among FA pg's, with Boykins being first. If this fails, I won't mind trying to acquire Charlie Bell in a trade with Milwakuee, but sadly, I highly doubt Bucks will trade Bell. Charlie got 13.5/2.9/3.0/1.2 in 34.7 minutes and only turned it over 1.27 times and shot 43.7% from the field and 35.2% behind the arc.


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## hutcht02 (Sep 22, 2006)

matador1238 said:


> Watch, we will probably spend alot on Knight.....
> I rather have Eddie House than Knight..........


The way I see it, we were going to spend 6 Million over the course of two years for Francis. Averages out at 3 Million a year. Knight is no Francis, so he should get no more than 3 Million of the MLE, but probably not even that much. I'd say take or leave 2.5 Million. Boykins would take that much. Knight isn't worth wasting our whole MLE on. I'd rather go into the season with only Cassell and Jordan/ Diaz and a decent FA pick-up rather than break the bank on Knight.


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

I hate this... we should just cross our fingers and sign someone else... if we sign Knight for anything over 2 million a year, I'll be pissed off.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

ditto


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I hate to break this to you guys,but Knight has been quite a bit better than Steve Francis for the last three years.The margin would have been enormous if Knight hadn't been plagued by injuries last year.You guys need to keep up with current events.Francis hasn't been that good since he left Houston and that's before you get to the part where he's a self-destructive jerkoff.When you get 30 million dollars to not play for a team that says an awful lot about your value.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

2004/2005 

Francis:
78 games played, 21.3 points, 7 assists 6 rebounds, 

Knight: 
66 games played, 10 points, 9 assists, 3 rebounds

2005/2006
Francis:
70 games played, 14.4 points, 5 assists, 4 rebounds

Knight:
69 games played, 12.6 points, 8.8 assists, 3.2 rebounds

2006-2007
Francis: 44 games played (28 minutes/game), 11.3 points, 4 assists, 3.6 rebounds

Knight: 45 games played (28 minutes/game), 9.1 points, 6.6 assists, 2.6 rebounds

Francis, whose health is considered his biggest problem has played in more games than knight, and statistically done better as well. 

Francis at his best is one of the best all around players in the nba. Knight at his best is a below average scorer with no 3 point shot, who is an upper tier assist man. 

If both are healthy, you cant even mention knight in the same breath as francis.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

So you can read a stat sheet...Partially at least.Look a little deeper.Which one of these players has been one of the best in the NBA at stealing the ball and at taking care of the ball.Go look up Stevie's TO's while you're reciting numbers by rote.Watching basketball would tell you more,but I can understand that it's easier to repeat the common misconceptions.

PER for last three season.<TABLE style="page-break-inside: avoid" cellSpacing=4 cellPadding=5 width="100%" border=1><COLGROUP><COL width=85><COL width=85><COL width=85><THEAD><TR vAlign=top><TH width="33%">Year
</TH><TH width="33%">Knight 
</TH><TH width="33%">Francis
</TH></TR></THEAD><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD width="33%">2004-5
</TD><TD width="33%">18.0
</TD><TD width="33%">15.9
</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD width="33%">2005-6
</TD><TD width="33%">17.3
</TD><TD width="33%">15.2
</TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD width="33%">2006-7
</TD><TD width="33%">14.3
</TD><TD width="33%">15.1
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

I have to say that the one thing I like about Knight better are that his assists are higher.


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Free Arsenal said:


> I have to say that the one thing I like about Knight better are that his assists are higher.


Dunleavy's half-court matchup offense needs a PG who can constantly knock down the jumper, both mid-range and the trey, in order to keep defenses honest, which is why the team wasn't solid with Livingston when playing half-court. Now, the few times Coach allowed the squad to run with Shaun, we damn well did good. 

I'd like Knight here, but I'd prefer signing Boykins first, or getting Charlie Bell.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

I am not a PER person. Francis is an all star, and at the top of his game, puts up all around numbers that few in the last 20 years have done. Knight is an afterthought. Hes a decent PG, but not at all what we need. We need a scoring PG who can rebound as well which is what francis is. We need a guy who can play the 2 as well which is what francis is. We need a guy who can shoot the three which is what francis can do. 

Id take jason hart over knight just because of fit. Knight the far superior passer, but i dont think hes a dunleavvy offense kind of guy.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

how about earl watson. Seattle might be shopping him. I like earl,hes a local college product, excellent defender, and can shoot the three ball. Id almost be tempted to trade maggette and williams for watson and one of their young bigs such as petro or swift.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> how about earl watson. Seattle might be shopping him. I like earl,hes a local college product, excellent defender, and can shoot the three ball. Id almost be tempted to trade maggette and williams for watson and one of their young bigs such as petro or swift.


I think with the way Seattle is going about business right now, we'd be able to get Watson/Ridnour for a 1st round pick. I can't see them wanting Maggette to get in the way of Durant.

Besides, Maggette for Watson + chump seems like overpaying, better off pursuing Bibby if we're gonna overpay.

PS, it's 4:20


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

But we have to match salaries. Seattle traded the trade exception already to phoenix. Not to mention that even if they had the trade exception, it wouldnt do us any good since watson or ridnour would put us in the luxury tax without letting some salary go.

I mentioned maggette, because i dont know of anyone else we could give up that would match salaries. Not to mention this way we can get thornton some playing time.

I still say my first choice is jack trade somehow, but watson would not be bad.


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## DaFranchise (Jun 29, 2005)

We wouldnt be having this problem if we drafted Critt. Way to address our biggest need in the draft! Now before all you Thornton lovers jump on my back, let me make this clear that I am not bashing Al. Its just wasnt a pressing need like PG. Now we are in some real trouble. At least football is almost here! I mean real football not that crappy futbol that Americans prefer to call soccer.


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

DaFranchise said:


> We wouldnt be having this problem if we drafted Critt. Way to address our biggest need in the draft! Now before all you Thornton lovers jump on my back, let me make this clear that I am not bashing Al. Its just wasnt a pressing need like PG. Now we are in some real trouble. At least football is almost here! * I mean real football not that crappy futbol that Americans prefer to call soccer.*


If it's so "crappy" as you like to prefer, then why does the entire world basically watch it? Why is nothing more watched then the World Cup, or why is nothing more played then soccer? What makes it "crappy"? That it's low scoring? If so, then that's the general ignorant reason.



yamaneko said:


> But we have to match salaries. Seattle traded the trade exception already to phoenix. Not to mention that even if they had the trade exception, it wouldnt do us any good since watson or ridnour would put us in the luxury tax without letting some salary go.
> 
> I mentioned maggette, because i dont know of anyone else we could give up that would match salaries. Not to mention this way we can get thornton some playing time.
> 
> I still say my first choice is jack trade somehow, but watson would not be bad.


Possibly extend it to a 3-way deal? I don't see how we can get Ridnour/Watson without a third team getting involved, unless, like you said, Maggette for Watson/Ridnour + let's say Sene as they are the highest on Swift and Petro, but besides that I don't see much.


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## hutcht02 (Sep 22, 2006)

yamaneko said:


> I am not a PER person. Francis is an all star, and at the top of his game, puts up all around numbers that few in the last 20 years have done. Knight is an afterthought. Hes a decent PG, but not at all what we need. We need a scoring PG who can rebound as well which is what francis is. We need a guy who can play the 2 as well which is what francis is. We need a guy who can shoot the three which is what francis can do.
> 
> Id take jason hart over knight just because of fit. Knight the far superior passer, but i dont think hes a dunleavvy offense kind of guy.


It's proven that PER is outdated and doesn't prove anywhere close to a players true value. Take Quinton Ross. He has a very low PER, yet he's one of the staples of the Clippers and we woudn't have a functional team without him. Too many things can affect a team that don't show up on a boxscore of PER. There are new experiments with Sabermetrics and stuff like that to really determine a players value, but they're still tinkering. Francis and Knight can both benefit the team, depending on their attitudes. Knight could be a great FA signing, especially depending on the price we get him for, but I say over 2.5 Mil is definitly not worth it.


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## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

Diable said:


> BK has developed a good midrange jumper now,but you'd have to have actually watched him recently to know that.It would be easier to just repeat things that everyone else says of course.His only big problem recently has been that he's been plagued by nagging injuries


thank you...vada


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## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

TakingitbyStorm said:


> I actually would welcome Knight. His midrange game is decent, and he has come up with some big shots when he played for the Bobcats. I would still rather have Jack than about anyone else including "Stevie". Knight's D and passing alone make him likeable for me. Brev could be a good fit with this team's makeup. Hart showed when you penetrate and get the ball moving this team can win without a scoring pg. This was Liv's problem, he wouldn't drive much.
> Players also tend to shoot better when they are surrounded with better shooters so I'm confident if Brev is healthy he could be a plus for this team.
> 
> The only thing I don't like is that him pairing up with Cassell means that we would need some real insurance if one of the two go down.
> ...


i agree...vada


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## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

Diable said:


> I hate to break this to you guys,but Knight has been quite a bit better than Steve Francis for the last three years.The margin would have been enormous if Knight hadn't been plagued by injuries last year.You guys need to keep up with current events.Francis hasn't been that good since he left Houston and that's before you get to the part where he's a self-destructive jerkoff.When you get 30 million dollars to not play for a team that says an awful lot about your value.


i know...vada


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## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

yamaneko said:


> 2004/2005
> 
> Francis:
> 78 games played, 21.3 points, 7 assists 6 rebounds,
> ...


not true brevin would go good with the clipper chemistry wise since he's a breakdown the d, pass first pg...vada


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## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

yamaneko said:


> how about earl watson. Seattle might be shopping him. I like earl,hes a local college product, excellent defender, and can shoot the three ball. Id almost be tempted to trade maggette and williams for watson and one of their young bigs such as petro or swift.


hahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!

watson's not better than brevin. maybe less injury prone but not better or even worth a maggette trade...vada

//(.Y.)\\


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## DaFranchise (Jun 29, 2005)

We might have the worst backcourt situation in the NBA.


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## DaFranchise (Jun 29, 2005)

qross1fan said:


> How am I assuming? I asked a question on why it's crappy, and then asked another if the reason is due to it's low scoring, then said. "if so", not "since that's your thinking".
> 
> Nice job on attempting to start something up though. :wahmbulance:


Way to take it the wrong way soccer boy. But if you want to go there at least go to the appropriate thread and I will pick you apart. Nice debut by your boy Becks last night. I saw more of Posh, Eva, and Katie Holmes last night than I did of the most overrated soccer player ever to play the game


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

DaFranchise said:


> Way to take it the wrong way soccer boy. But if you want to go there at least go to the appropriate thread and I will pick you apart. Nice debut by your boy Becks last night. I saw more of Posh, Eva, and Katie Holmes last night than I did of the most overrated soccer player ever to play the game


Take what the wrong way? Nothing to take the wrong way, as you keep proving the point right, going from 'periods' to 'soccerboy'. I guess it'd be right in your world if I call you the poster with a man-crush on Critterton? :whoknows: 

So, let's call soccer is crappy because ESPN decided to show Posh/Eva and Katie last night? How's it soccers fault that ESPN is retarded? One can say the same during Spurs games, as ESPN shows more then enough of Eva. 

By the way, it was a nice game, debut or not. Galaxy were able to hang in with Chelsea long enough, although it should have been a blown out if Chelsea were in mid-season form, which they obviously weren't as they are barely on about day 11/12 of training camps? It was pretty weird to see the Galaxians stick in the game as long as they did, with how so/so they played. Can't wait to see the team in full effect, with Becks, healthy Albright, Donovan, Pavon, Cobi, Gray, Klein and Xavier.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

DaFranchise said:


> We might have the worst backcourt situation in the NBA.


Yep, but that's why we drafted Thornton right? oh wait... that move made no sense at all... 

why did we draft this guy again? so we could trade maggette for some chump PG? blah, we suck.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

qross1fan said:


> I guess it'd be right in your world if I call you the poster with a man-crush on Critterton? :whoknows:


At least he doesn't get a hard-on everytime someone mentions trading Maggette.:raised_ey


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

Knight would be a perfect solution. They'd better not wait too long or he'll be scooped up by someone pretty quickly.


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

leidout said:


> At least he doesn't get a hard-on everytime someone mentions trading Maggette.


I do? I really didn't know I did, I guess you must be around that area constantly to know? Since you seem to 'know' stuff that I don't. I mean, how else would you know something? :whoknows:

At least I'm realistic about the team, and even optimistic at times, as opposed to the constant pessimism you bring around here. "Oh we didn't sign Francis, we suck ***". Kind of reminds me of them emo's, "She didn't give me her number, so I'm going to go cut myself!". 

Francis is good and all, but there is no way in hell he was our savior.


Showtime87 said:


> Knight would be a perfect solution. They'd better not wait too long or he'll be scooped up by someone pretty quickly.


I think Boykins would be a better fit at the moment, due to Earl having a better jumper. Not saying Knight won't be a good solution, as he would, as he provides us with steals, dimes and can knock down the mid-range J. 

Hopefully we don't overpay for Brevin if we do ink him though


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

qross1fan said:


> I do? I really didn't know I did, I guess you must be around that area constantly to know? Since you seem to 'know' stuff that I don't. I mean, how else would you know something? :whoknows:
> 
> At least I'm realistic about the team, and even optimistic at times, as opposed to the constant pessimism you bring around here. "Oh we didn't sign Francis, we suck ***". Kind of reminds me of them emo's, "She didn't give me her number, so I'm going to go cut myself!".
> 
> ...


Lol, i'm emo? funny. You're obsessed, brain is the most important sexual organ.

Here's how i know, over the past year, name at least 2 instances where you've praised Maggette without instantly cutting him down or 2 trade ideas you've come up with that don't involve getting rid of him (usually for garbage). 

I didn't like francis either, but considering that without him, we literally only have a 38-year old PG who is good for 50% of the time at best and NO BACKUP, hell... not even a back SG... i think it's a fair statement to say that we suck, especially considering how strong our competition is now.

in all seriousness though (since all our threads are spiraling into madness lately) i wasn't being very pessimistic at all until we totally ****ed up this offseason, heck i was the only one who was optimistic about Livingston's injury! :biggrin:


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

Showtime87 said:


> Knight would be a perfect solution. They'd better not wait too long or he'll be scooped up by someone pretty quickly.


Lol, enough advice from you, i'd rather the Lakers sign him for 50 mil/6 years.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

leidout said:


> Lol, enough advice from you, i'd rather the Lakers sign him for 50 mil/6 years.


I sincerely apologize. I somehow forgot that your opinion is the only one that really matters. My bad. :laugh:


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

We seriously need a Savior.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

LOL at Diable trying to say Knight can shoot, and immediately jumping to the "you've never seen him play" crap. Yes he can make jumpers occasionally, but so can Eric Snow and Jacque Vaughn. Fact is, they all suck at shooting for NBA guards.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

hobojoe said:


> LOL at Diable trying to say Knight can shoot, and immediately jumping to the "you've never seen him play" crap. Yes he can make jumpers occasionally, but so can Eric Snow and Jacque Vaughn. Fact is, they all suck at shooting for NBA guards.


Exactly. He won't be taking too many jumpers, his specialty is driving and dishing off to the finishers. Brand, Maggette and Kaman would all benefit greatly from having a true pass-first point guard on the floor like Knight.


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## hutcht02 (Sep 22, 2006)

Showtime87 said:


> Exactly. He won't be taking too many jumpers, his specialty is driving and dishing off to the finishers. Brand, Maggette and Kaman would all benefit greatly from having a true pass-first point guard on the floor like Knight.


There's nothing wrong with signing Knight as long as we get Diaz to put in place of him when we need scoring.


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Showtime87 said:


> Exactly. He won't be taking too many jumpers, his specialty is driving and dishing off to the finishers. Brand, Maggette and Kaman would all benefit greatly from having a true pass-first point guard on the floor like Knight.


Yes, Knight can do all that, but just like Livingston, defenses will be able to cheat off of Knight and get ready to double on Elton/Chris on the post. We need a PG who can knock down the midrange J to be able to keep defense's honest.


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## hutcht02 (Sep 22, 2006)

qross1fan said:


> Yes, Knight can do all that, but just like Livingston, defenses will be able to cheat off of Knight and get ready to double on Elton/Chris on the post. We need a PG who can knock down the midrange J to be able to keep defense's honest.


Which is where Diaz fits very nicely


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

qross1fan said:


> Yes, Knight can do all that, but just like Livingston, defenses will be able to cheat off of Knight and get ready to double on Elton/Chris on the post. We need a PG who can knock down the midrange J to be able to keep defense's honest.


Point taken, but there just aren't too many points out there who can regularly knock down the midrange J. I don't know, it's definitely a delicate balance, but I think with Cassell and his offense in the fold the Clipps could get by with having a guy like Knight play 15-20 mpg. Assuming Knight plays primarily during the early to middle stages of the game with Cassell coming in to close things out late. In my opinion Knight's playmaking attributes outweigh his offensive deficiencies.


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## DaFranchise (Jun 29, 2005)

qross1fan said:


> Take what the wrong way? Nothing to take the wrong way, as you keep proving the point right, going from 'periods' to 'soccerboy'. I guess it'd be right in your world if I call you the poster with a man-crush on Critterton? :whoknows:
> 
> So, let's call soccer is crappy because ESPN decided to show Posh/Eva and Katie last night? How's it soccers fault that ESPN is retarded? One can say the same during Spurs games, as ESPN shows more then enough of Eva.
> 
> By the way, it was a nice game, debut or not. Galaxy were able to hang in with Chelsea long enough, although it should have been a blown out if Chelsea were in mid-season form, which they obviously weren't as they are barely on about day 11/12 of training camps? It was pretty weird to see the Galaxians stick in the game as long as they did, with how so/so they played. Can't wait to see the team in full effect, with Becks, healthy Albright, Donovan, Pavon, Cobi, Gray, Klein and Xavier.


Thats because nobody cares. Its all one big publicity stunt. Enough soccer! Go ahead and say what you want about my boy Critt. All I remember is that everyone was so concerned about his turnovers. He only averaged 1.6 TO in the summer league while posting up good all around numbers while Thornton was turning it over 4 times per game. Critt is the real deal and still a baby compared to old man Thornton.


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## DaFranchise (Jun 29, 2005)

leidout said:


> Yep, but that's why we drafted Thornton right? oh wait... that move made no sense at all...
> 
> why did we draft this guy again? so we could trade maggette for some chump PG? blah, we suck.


Exactly, now we are hoping Brevin Knight chooses us. Man we screwed up this team big time. Do we even have an off season plan?


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

Clippers need to hurray up and close the deal before the market gets even thiner. I don't mind Knight, he can really dish out assists even in limited minutes. If healthy he can be an asset. Boykins would be alright too but he tends be a black hole sometimes. Regardless the Clippers need to sign someone yesterday and move on, I don't see many trade options for the Clippers that are going to help.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Ridiculous how many of you are against the pick of Thornton because of team need. It's not like Al Thornton is a Center drafted in the lottery to play behind Yao Ming or pure PG drafted onto Utah to play behind Deron Williams or something ridiculous like that, he's a SF with versatility behind a good but not great player who will be a free agent in a year and has a history of not seeing eye to eye with the coach.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

hobojoe said:


> Ridiculous how many of you are against the pick of Thornton because of team need. It's not like Al Thornton is a Center drafted in the lottery to play behind Yao Ming or pure PG drafted onto Utah to play behind Deron Williams or something ridiculous like that, he's a SF with versatility behind a good but not great player who will be a free agent in a year and has a history of not seeing eye to eye with the coach.


He's also behind 2 other SFs, and we've already got a SF that we drafted with a higher pick. We also had to get rid of a very good SF to make space for him.

Yet we have no reliable backup PG or SG or Center. 

The best we've got are 2nd rounders who we're hoping play at about 200% of their ability. It was a dumb pick, hopefully you'll admit that when he's played about 5 minutes per game after 2 years.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Exactly. For thornton to get playing time drastic things have to change. The first thing has already happened with singleton being shown the door. The second thing has also happened, with maggette being the opening day starter. Despite these two big changes, hes still not really guaranteed big minuts. A trade or injury would be the only way at this point where he can get minutes


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## hutcht02 (Sep 22, 2006)

yamaneko said:


> Exactly. For thornton to get playing time drastic things have to change. The first thing has already happened with singleton being shown the door. The second thing has also happened, with maggette being the opening day starter. Despite these two big changes, hes still not really guaranteed big minuts. A trade or injury would be the only way at this point where he can get minutes


He'll get big minutes by the end of the year. Dunleavy never gives rookies big minutes from the git-go, and that wouldn't change even if we would've drafted Greg Oden. But Thornton will be slated as the back-up SF before the year is over. Ross only played SF so he could start, but he's really not one, and Dunleavy perfers Thomas as a PF, so Thornton will get minutes right away, just not big ones quite yet.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

leidout said:


> He's also behind 2 other SFs, and we've already got a SF that we drafted with a higher pick. We also had to get rid of a very good SF to make space for him.
> 
> Yet we have no reliable backup PG or SG or Center.
> 
> The best we've got are 2nd rounders who we're hoping play at about 200% of their ability. It was a dumb pick, hopefully you'll admit that when he's played about 5 minutes per game after 2 years.


He is not behind 2 other SFs, and Korolev is a bust who wouldn't be in the league if the Clippers hadn't re-signed him, he's irrelevant. You're insane if you think he's playing 5 minutes per game this season, next season or any season. Absolutely insane, and purely overrating the talent of the current squad and underrating Thornton's talent. We're not talking about a championship caliber team that just needs to retool and add some reserves, we're talking about a team that didn't make the playoffs. The Clippers need help, Thornton is probably the 3rd or 4th best player on the team already. You're absolutely insane if you think he's going to rot on the bench while the Clippers lose games.


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## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

hobojoe said:


> He is not behind 2 other SFs, and Korolev is a bust who wouldn't be in the league if the Clippers hadn't re-signed him, he's irrelevant. You're insane if you think he's playing 5 minutes per game this season, next season or any season. Absolutely insane, and purely overrating the talent of the current squad and underrating Thornton's talent. We're not talking about a championship caliber team that just needs to retool and add some reserves, we're talking about a team that didn't make the playoffs. The Clippers need help, Thornton is probably the 3rd or 4th best player on the team already. You're absolutely insane if you think he's going to rot on the bench while the Clippers lose games.


i feel you hobojoe. especialy since dumbleavy already messed up on the korolev pick. he has to play thornton to bring faith back to the fans and organization that he knows what he's doing. i think al as a rookie, he's probably the 5th or 6th best player on the team and he will move up the ranks.

his only real problem i saw that he had was his poor shot selection at times (that can be fixed) and his tendency to pick up his dribble too soon and get stuck like a little kid that can't dribble under pressure...
once he settles down and finds his place all you thorton bashers are gonna regret what your saying...

for the record: i wanted nick, brewer, or stuckey. but i was happy to see us get al cause he's a feirce competitor that's gonna show up if we need to beat sacramento to get in the playoffs. but if you really knew your team, you would see that in the wild west toughness is what the clippers really need. plus no doubt the clippers medical staff feel that livi can make a full recovery. he might not be the same, but look at amare...

now if dumbleavy was really a good coach he'd find a way to blend it all together and make everybody other than himself happy...but i couldn't possibly know what i'm talking about could i...vada


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> He'll get big minutes by the end of the year. Dunleavy never gives rookies big minutes from the git-go, and that wouldn't change even if we would've drafted Greg Oden.


Oden would have gotten all of the backup center minutes from the get go, regardless of anything else. Oden and thornton cannot be compared at all. Theres no guarantee that thornton will get big minutes by the end of the year. Thats just speculation not based on previous history. Previous history and current lineup dictates he will get near zero minutes unless previous constants change. Thats just a fact. Something has to change for him to get playing time.



> Ross only played SF so he could start, but he's really not one, and Dunleavy perfers Thomas as a PF, so Thornton will get minutes right away, just not big ones quite yet.


It wasnt just for Ross to start, it was to offset cassells defense when cassell was one. When cassell wasnt starting, many times neither was ross. Its also very rare for a player who cannot even shoot the 3 ball to be given big minutes at SG with any team in the league. I broke down the minutes in another thread, and unless youre ready to cut thomas minutes by around 1/3 - 1/2 , hes going to be getting a lot of SF backup minutes. And by your other statement, dunleavvy likes thomas at PF, i agree. But theres not that many backup PF minutes, and its doubtful thornton gets any of those minutes either. So his only shot at PT is SF, where maggette will start and get his 34 minutes or whatever, you have ross getting a whopping 6 minutes perhaps, then thomas with 8 minutes. Something is going to have to change like i siad for thornton to see the light of day.



> You're insane if you think he's playing 5 minutes per game this season, next season or any season. Absolutely insane, and purely overrating the talent of the current squad and underrating Thornton's talent.


How can someone be insane when were talking about actual history not speculation? Dunleavvy hates to play maggette at SG. Dunleavvy LOVES to give ross at least some minutes at SF when cassell is on the court. Maggette has been said to start, and if his minutes stay the same as the last few years, then were talking 30+. You can see how many minutes thomas got last year, as well as kaman and brand and williams, so its fairly easy to see how the minutes will work out in the front court as well as SF. Is it overrrating talent to say that maggette is better than thronton, and thornton wont steal any minutes from him? Is it overrating talent to say that thornton is not the outside shooter that thomas is, and its unlikely that thomas will get a lot of minutes taken away just to give some to thornton? Its just reality...things have to change for thornton to get playing time. 

Thornton the 3rd or best player on the team already when he hasnt set foot on the nba court? That can only be said when you talk about near guarnateed superstars like durant, oden, etc. Brand, kaman, Maggette, thomas, cassell, mobley all better than thornton. More valuable shall i say.


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

Hate to say it...

We need to trade maggete.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

Free Arsenal said:


> Hate to say it...
> 
> We need to trade maggete.


Bah, i feel the same way, probably why i've been so pissy the past couple of weeks. We better at least get a fair deal out of it if it happens. 

I honestly feel that we're not gonna make any trades though and end up with a totally unbalanced team.


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

leidout said:


> Bah, i feel the same way, probably why i've been so pissy the past couple of weeks. We better at least get a fair deal out of it if it happens.
> 
> I honestly feel that we're not gonna make any trades though and end up with a totally unbalanced team.


If we don't make trades, at least sign J.J. and Diaz. I think it'd be better to have the two of them over Brevin Knight. Diaz because he can score and handle the ball, and J. Jordan because he needs time to develop. I think he can develop over the season for some reason.


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## TakingitbyStorm (Jul 1, 2007)

yamaneko said:


> > _Previous history and current lineup dictates he will get near zero minutes unless previous constants change. Thats just a fact. Something has to change for him to get playing time_.
> 
> 
> Previous constants have changed. We now have a player that Dunleavy has stated will get minutes from the get go. Remember even with Y2K Dun stated that he was a long term project so nothing has changed from his statements so we can reason that this is true.
> ...


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> Previous constants have changed. We now have a player that Dunleavy has stated will get minutes from the get go. Remember even with Y2K Dun stated that he was a long term project so nothing has changed from his statements so we can reason that this is true.


Not entirely true. I have said already TWO of the things that need to happen (maggette starting, singleton being let go) to help thorntons cause have already happened. But it still doesnt guarantee him a lot of minutes. Regardless of what ANYONE says, dunleavvy included, THINGS still have to change that no one seems to want to mention. Dunleavvy hasnt mentioned what he will do to get thornton time, and others here have only mentioned thornton getting time perhaps if theres an injury...something i agree with, but at the same time, considered "a change." Dunleavvy also had said that he expected korolev to be a part of the regular rotation by january of his rookie year. That didnt exactly happen. We read about wilcox getting commitmment from dunleavvy to getting more time, that didnt happen. People have said a lot of things, it doesnt make it fact, especially when they dont even explain how its going to happen. I thought that maybe he was going to teach thornton how to play SG, but the clipper coaches have already said thats not going to happen. 



> This is where Dun and Maggette will have to learn to work "outside the box" of the respective modalities. Maggette needs to improve his decision making skill so that he can play the 2 to give Dun confidence to put him there.


Agreed...but i was actually referring to Q Ross, whom someone else had said was going to get SG minutes only instead of SF. I maintain that for someone who can count the number of therees he has hit on one hand, has no business playing SG. Personally id put maggette at SG some of the time...its dunleavvy the one who acts like its against his religion to do that. 



> This will be situational. I would say that you can cut Thomas' minutes in half at this position.


Thats a change, yes, and a reasonable one, but when were talking cutting his minutes in half at that position, were talking a whopping 5 minutes perhaps, right? I can see thornton getting those 5 minutes...but the way some people talk is as if hes going to play 25-30



> If Maggette is getting 34 minutes per game I will go out on a limb and say two things will happen.
> 1. Ross will not get any minutes at the SF spot.
> 2. Maggette will miss at least 15 games that season.


yes, however, BOTH of those again, are "drastic changes" that must happen. Are they possible? Yes, but nothing is set in stone now, and if either of those happens, it will be a drastic change from current situation. For example ross not getting any minutes at SF? Meaning that we will haev a non shooter play shooting guard? Maggette is healthy now..and injury is an unexpected and big change. IF he does get injured, i do see thornton getting a LOT of his minutes...but again, it goes back to the thing of this is not a current situation, its a "possible" future "change."



> You named Kaman Brand and Williams. Hmm...Kaman has contract, Thomas has contract, Brand has contract with option, and that leaves Williams who has contract but will not be resigned unless he has some sort of break out year.


Not sure what your point is though...im talking about this upcoming year...all of those guys are signed, and can be expected to have similar contributions to last year since most were healthy.



> Davis will push Williams out of rotation, Kaman and Brand will benefit from this with more rest. Basically this is not last year and Williams would be cut if that were an option. This is an assumption by myself which I stand wholeheartily behind.


Again, none of it affects thornton. Regardless of who gets backup center minutes, williams or davis, its NOT thornton. ANd thomas is pretty much guaranteed most of the PF and C backup minutes that remain. Thats what im referring to. I dont expect thornton to get any center minutes, and only PF minutes in strange situations.



> Yes, it is overating talent IMO. It's is not overating reputation. Both players travel a lot when they make their moves. Who's gonna get called for it more? Just one example but the overall talent level is negligible.


Wow, i think youll find yourself by yourself in that category. Not even the guys who are on thorntons jock will say that he is on maggette's level. Everyone calls me a "maggette hater" and i still think maggette is worlds better than thornton. Maggette for years is averaging the numbers thornton barely did one year in his last year in college. How you can say its overstating talent to call a proven nba vet better than an unproven, unspectacular college player is quite an opinion all right! 



> And Oden can't even be mentioned in the same breath as Thornton when we discuss DESIRE.


Doesnt mean diddly squat though when were talking such a difference in skillset. Oden doesnt match madsens desire either, so what? 

By the way, takingitbystorm, i absolutely loved your post. Even though we dnot agree on things, i wish more would post like you. Instead of making wild accusations or emotional tirades calling me or others names, racists, you calmly and maturely go over your points one by one. You also do not just make some kind of assertion like, "thornton will get XX amounts of minutes...book it." without providing any explanation of where the minutes might come from. Again, i agree with only half of what you say, but i just wish EVERYONE would post like you. Very nice.


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## TakingitbyStorm (Jul 1, 2007)

yamaneko said:


> > Not entirely true. I have said already TWO of the things that need to happen (maggette starting, singleton being let go) to help thorntons cause have already happened. But it still doesnt guarantee him a lot of minutes. Regardless of what ANYONE says, dunleavvy included, THINGS still have to change that no one seems to want to mention. Dunleavvy hasnt mentioned what he will do to get thornton time, and others here have only mentioned thornton getting time perhaps if theres an injury...something i agree with, but at the same time, considered "a change." Dunleavvy also had said that he expected korolev to be a part of the regular rotation by january of his rookie year. That didnt exactly happen. We read about wilcox getting commitmment from dunleavvy to getting more time, that didnt happen. People have said a lot of things, it doesnt make it fact, especially when they dont even explain how its going to happen. I thought that maybe he was going to teach thornton how to play SG, but the clipper coaches have already said thats not going to happen.
> 
> 
> As far as Y2K goes I have no idea of what happened that he didn't get minutes, as far as Wilcox goes, he was given plenty of minutes to prove he belonged in the regular rotation. It wasn't until he fail to capitalize on those minutes that he was yanked.
> ...


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Great, this has turned into yet another Thornton vs getting time battle ugh.

Anyone got any news on BK?


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

Nope, no new news on Knight. Would be nice if the Clippers would sign someone asap. All this delay is hurting them.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> As far as Y2K goes I have no idea of what happened that he didn't get minutes, as far as Wilcox goes, he was given plenty of minutes to prove he belonged in the regular rotation. It wasn't until he fail to capitalize on those minutes that he was yanked.


Thats my opinion as well, but i think youll find that 90% of other people on this board swear that wilcox got the short end of the stick and wasnt given the full opportunity that kaman was given



> Those are the minutes that I was stating that Thomas would give up, not including those that Ross would hand over also.


Ok, so its going to come down to that. We have had 2 changes already that needed to take place, and at least 2 more changes that need to take place. Thomas has to have his minutes cut in half, and ross' 5-10 minutes as well need to disappear. I dont think thats a given, but it could happen to give thornton about 15 minutes. I STLIL think that even with FOUR changes, were still going to need something more. Such as dunleavvy reversing ground completely and playing Maggette a lot at SG. Also Ross exiting the rotation almost completely. And of course theres always trade and injury. 



> Maggette misses at least that many games on average, so I wouldn't call that anything drastic.


Yes, but youre betting on something thats not a guarantee. Its one thing not to sign a guy who has a history of medical problems. But then to draft a guy who might only work out IF that currently 100% healthy guy gets injured, and then for only 15-20 games or so...i dont see the logic there when we had other needs. 



> As far as Ross is concerned, i stated before that Al's ability to stay on the floor would be from playing D, therefore I stated that Ross wouldn't be playing that position when Al is able to defend the position consistantly.


Ross rarely guards the SF position, only when its guys like kobe or tmac, etc. Usually hes out there to guard the opposing PG for cassell, or another speed demon. I dont think thornton will ever be asked to guard anyone other than a SF, or possibly PF. 

It still doesnt matter if davis supplants williams. In my previous minute divying, i have davis as getting 0 minutes. So if williams gets zero minutes, and davis gets 5-8, its still the same. Kaman will get his 30-32, brand will get his 38-40, that doesnt leave too many minuts for thomas up front. The reason i say thornton isnt as good as maggette is he is an unproven commodity who wasnt even a superstar in college. Some people even scoffed at me when i said durant is better than maggette...Durant, perhaps the best college freshman in the history of college basketball. But agian for the same reason, hes unproven in the nba. But t ome, if youre as special as durant is, you can be rated as better than a non all star even before you come into the game. I just dont think its reasonable to say the same about thornton. Someone who wasnt even that spectacular in summer league. 

Oh, i thought you originally said that thornton was the 3rd best player on the team overall, which i 100% dont agree with. if hes 3rd best on the team for desire, who knows, i dont pay attention to that that much, he could very well be.


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