# 10th seed in the Western Conference in 2004-05: THE HOUSTON ROCKETS



## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

This is the third summer in a row that all the experts have told us a Tracy McGrady-led team is finally going to do some damage in the playoffs. Well, he's never gotten out of the first round, and last year his team was the worst team in the league.

A lot of these experts never give McGrady any of the blame when his team has a disappointing season. They make excuses for him. He had a terrible supporting cast. His team didn't have any depth. All of that is true, but I just have one question: If these people knew how bad Orlando's supporting cast was, and if having no supporting cast is a good excuse for being a bad team, *THEN WHY DID THEY KEEP PREDICTING THAT ORLANDO WOULD DO DAMAGE IN THE PLAYOFFS?*

Let's look over the Rockets' roster this year.

*STARTING LINEUP*

-*Tyronn Lue*: He was the worst starting point guard in the NBA last year, and he probably will be again, next year, depending on who the Bobcats find at that position. He's one of the worst defensive players in the league.

-*Tracy McGrady*: One of the greatest scorers in the league, but is he a winner? When
he has a bad supporting cast, no he's not, so let's look at the rest of his supporing cast.

-*Jim Jackson*: He's definitely below average as a starting small forward, but last year, he was at least solid. A good defender and a nice outside shooter. HOWEVER, he'll be 34 years old when the season starts. It's common for an over-the-hill role player to have a nice season one year, and suddenly fall of the face of the earth the next year. Look how quickly age caught up with Ron Mercer and Robert Horry. It's also very common for a role player to look good as a fourth or fifth option, but when you ask him to do more than that, he looks awful. What I'm saying is, don't count on Jim Jackson to be great for the Rockets next year. He could easily be one of the worst starting small forwards in the league.

-*Juwan Howard*: One of the NBA's biggest underachievers of the last decade. Teams with Juwan Howard on them always seem to be worse than people think they'll be. He's one of the worst defensive players in the league, he's a horrible rebounder, and he doesn't even pretend to hustle. If a loose ball is on its way out of bounds, Juwan Howard will watch it bounce out of bounds when every other player in the league would go grab it. He's one of the worst starting power forwards in the league.

-*Yao Ming*: The second-best center in the league. I'm not sure whether he's there yet, but I think he's a blossoming superstar.

Two of the Rockets' starters are among the best in the league at their position, but two, maybe three of their starters are among the worst in the league at their position. And even though they have Yao, this team is going to get outrebounded night in and night out. Yao's hands aren't good enough yet, he lets a lot of rebounds bounce off his hands when he should get them. We already know that Juwan Howard is a terrible rebounder. I think this team's second-best rebounder might be a guard! This isn't going to work.


*BENCH*

-*Reece Gaines*: Has done absolutely nothing in the NBA so far, and no one should count on him to do anything next year, either.

-*Bostjan Nachbar*: Has done absolutely nothing in the NBA so far, and no one should count on him to do anything next year, either.

-*Eric Piatkowski*: A nice three-point shooter off the bench, but he's unathletic, can't create his own shot, and can't play defense. Was seldom used for the Rockets last year.

-*Maurice Taylor*: A poor man's Juwan Howard. He has a decent jump shot, but he can't play defense, and he doesn't get rebounds or hustle either. Last year, his net plus-minus (difference in plus-minus per 48 minutes when he was on the court with when he was off the court) was worse than -5, the worst of anyone who was in the Rockets' rotation.

-*Clarence Weatherspoon*: An undersized, fat power forward with no offensive game, who is totally finished. His net plus-minus was even worse than Mo Taylor's.

-*Adrian Griffin*: A terrible, terrible player who doesn't belong in the league. He was seldom used last year so his net plus-minus doesn't mean much, but it was even worse than Weatherspoon's.

That bench makes me want to vomit, it might be the worst I've ever seen. I'd be surprised if the Bobcats don't put together a better bench than that.



Now, people keep saying that Yao and McGrady is the NBA's next great one-two punch. Maybe they are, but these people are also saying that the Rockets are going to be one of the top four or five teams in the West next year. I just don't see how that's going to happen.

Last year, the Rockets were the 7th best team in the West, and this summer, the rest of the West got better while the Rockets got worse. When you trade Steve Francis, an All-Star point guard, for Tyronn Lue, you get worse. When you trade Kelvin Cato, your only dependable rebounder and best post defender, for Juwan Howard, you get worse. When your bench is one of the worst in NBA history, you get worse. When you trade Cuttino Mobley for Tracy McGrady, you get a lot better, but not enough to make up for the rest of your team getting decimated.

Who are the Rockets going to beat if they're a Top 5 team in the West? The Grizzlies won 50 games last year with a solid, young nucleus, and they didn't lose anyone important. The Nuggets were barely behind the Rockets last year, and they added Kenyon Martin. The Jazz were also barely behind the Rockets with one of the worst frontcourts in the league, and they got Mehmet Okur and Carlos Boozer to replace Greg Ostertag and, who, Michael Ruffin? The Suns, once Amare got healthy last year, they were a .500 team down the stretch even though they had no good point guard. Now they have Steve Nash. Dallas did lose Steve Nash, but they were quite a bit better than the Rockets last year, and they at least have Devin Harris and Marquis Daniels to replace him, both of those guys are pretty solid. All these teams are DEEP teams that have a solid lineup across the board. The Rockets are basically last year's Magic, plus Yao Ming. I don't see how the Rockets are better than any of these teams, let alone Minnesota, Sacramento, San Antonio, or the Lakers.

Could someone explain to me how the Rockets are going to make the playoffs next year? Let alone how they're going to be a Top 5 team in the West? This team looks to me like it will win 35-40 games, which is a pretty big credit to Yao and McGrady when you look at the rest of Houston's roster.

If I'm right, I just want one thing. I want this year to be a reality check for the people who try to have it both ways. During the summer, they tell us McGrady's good enough to do damage even with a terrible supporting cast, but during the spring, they tell us that his terrible supporting cast is a good excuse for why his team sucked. I want these people to STOP overrating McGrady and admit once and for all that he's not good enough to do anything if he has horrible teammates. Pretty please?


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Be patient, Artestfan. It is not done yet. If Rockets can get a defensive PF and passing PG, they are the title contender without a doubt.


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

no it its the Lakers who are going to be #10, not houston.

I think you have 2 guys who can lead them to the playoffs not just Tmac.

Plus i think they will be really close to signing Damon Jones.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

You're forgetting that Jeff Van Gundy is one of the better coaches in the league, and the Rockets will be a top defensive team again. They dont need to be the best offensive team in the league, because their defensive will be top of the line and their offensive is far from bad with McGrady and Yao.

The Magic were never a good defensive team, and they still won 42 games one year I believe.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

All depends in how Yao develop


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Currently, Rockets are in 8th seed.

tier 1: 
Spurs. Twolves, Kings, 

tier 2: 
Jazz, Griz, Nuggets,

7th seed: 'surprised'
8th seed: Rockets


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## Flamesta (Jul 12, 2004)

Tyronn Lue:
AI STOPPER, he will carry the rockets :laugh: 

Anyways if the rockets can somehow get Eric Snow or McInnis they might be ok. Get rid of Juan Howard. That man is :sour:


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## sweet_constipation (Jul 3, 2004)

I thought it was common sense that you can't do anything if you don't have good teammates.

I don't know what position they'll be in, but the combination of Yao and Tmac should be good enough to be the 8th seed in the West.
As of now, they NEED to find a servicable big man to back up Ming as we all know he won't play 40 minutes each game in a 82 game season, and a decent PG.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

The Rockets will make the playoffs and be a title contender. This is pretty simple stuff; Tyron Lue isn't terrible, he just needs a smart coach that knows how to use him to be effective. See 2001 Lakers. No matter what you would love to believe (and I find your analysis of him strange), Howard is hardly one of the worst players at his position. No matter how bad you want him to be, he's still quite comparable to Cato and will probably be noticeably better under JVG. 

And as *JTCK* said, you're ignoring the coaching situation. The Rockets will be a very good and possibly great defensive team like they were last year. That, plus Tmac and Yao's offense, should be plenty to make them title contenders. Though, i wouldn't call them legit contenders like the Spurs, Twolves, Pistons, and Kings, they're relatively close. 

Though, I do agree with you about people making excuses for Tmac. A lot of people want to blame it on his teammates, but the 2004 Magic minus Tmac weren't that much worse than the 2003 Magic minus Tmac. Tmac just had a bad season.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> The Rockets will make the playoffs and be a title contender. This is pretty simple stuff; Tyron Lue isn't terrible, he just needs a smart coach that knows how to use him to be effective. See 2001 Lakers. No matter what you would love to believe (and I find your analysis of him strange), Howard is hardly one of the worst players at his position. No matter how bad you want him to be, he's still quite comparable to Cato and will probably be noticeably better under JVG.
> 
> And as *JTCK* said, you're ignoring the coaching situation. The Rockets will be a very good and possibly great defensive team like they were last year. That, plus Tmac and Yao's offense, should be plenty to make them title contenders. Though, i wouldn't call them legit contenders like the Spurs, Twolves, Pistons, and Kings, they're relatively close.


Man, this post is all wrong. 

Lue is not good. He is not good at all. He is a spot up shooting point guard who isnt even very consistent at that. He doesn't create for others, can't initiate a fast break, and his defense on anyone but tiny little PGs is laughable.

And your comparison of Howard to Cato is misleading. Howard is a soft PF who isn't very athletic, doesn't grab strong rebounds, doesn't block shots, and is a very mediocre athlete. Sure he can put up some points, but he usually gives up just as many and can be quite a black hole on offense. Any team that has Juwan Howard playing major minutes at PF is going to be weak inside. Get ready for the matador defense. Cato is not a great player but he can rebound, block shots, and finish around the basket. The type of play needed next to Ming.



> Though, I do agree with you about people making excuses for Tmac. A lot of people want to blame it on his teammates, but the 2004 Magic minus Tmac weren't that much worse than the 2003 Magic minus Tmac. Tmac just had a bad season.


That is not even remotely true.


Rockets will have a good team, but they wont be serious contenders with Lue and Howard getting major mins. Even Lue said himself late last season that he doesnt deserve to be starting in the NBA.


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## The Cat (Jul 14, 2002)

> All of that is true, but I just have one question: If these people knew how bad Orlando's supporting cast was, and if having no supporting cast is a good excuse for being a bad team, THEN WHY DID THEY KEEP PREDICTING THAT ORLANDO WOULD DO DAMAGE IN THE PLAYOFFS?


A lot of it has to do with Grant Hill declaring himself healthy at the beginning of the seasons when those predictions were made.

Let me ask you a few questions.

Before last year, what was the perception of Steve Francis? I'll save you the trouble - one of the league's worst defenders. Before last year, what was the perception of Cuttino Mobley? Average defender at best. Before last year, what was the perception of Kelvin Cato? Lazy, unmotivated, no effort. What was the perception of those guys after the season? Good defenders and hustlers for the first two, and Cato an inspired defensive player inside who protects the basket.

Why?

Two reasons. Yao Ming and Jeff Van Gundy. You instantly become a better defender when you have a 7'5 player behind you defending the basket. It's no coincidence that the league's best defenders - Bruce Bowen and Ron Artest - have a legit low post stud behind them protecting the basket. Who did the Magic have back there? Andrew Declercq. Every defender gets beaten at some point or another, but it looks a lot worse when you're in Orlando because there's no interior presence to play help defense.

Also, you instantly become a better defender when you play under Jeff Van Gundy, or you're not getting on the floor.



> All these teams are DEEP teams that have a solid lineup across the board.


again, ugh. I loved the Pistons winning the championship a month ago, but now I'm beginning to wish they hadn't, because it's putting entirely too much emphasis on depth. The Pistons were the exception of the last 25 years, not the rule. It's stars that win titles. Shaq and Kobe, Duncan and Robinson, Hakeem and Clyde, Jordan and Pippen, Magic and Kareem, Bird and McHale... you get the picture. Will Yao and TMac ever get to that level? Who knows. But they have incredible talent, and I'd rather take my chances with them than some team with a lot of good to very good players but no great players.

I admit that Lue, Howard, Jackson and Taylor don't have a reputation for being the best role players in the league. But neither did Fisher, Fox, Brian Shaw and a host of others on those Laker teams before people *raved* about them in 2001 and 2002. No, they didn't suddenly improve. The game just became easier for them because they were playing off of two dominant players. You'll be surprised how much better these players seem when opposing teams have to devote so much attention to Yao and McGrady.

You're right; there are a lot of good teams in the West, even down to the 9 and 10 seeds. There will be a lot of close games. And that's when it'll break down for a lot of these deep and athletic teams, because there's no dominant scorer, or one at the most. The Rockets have *two*, and when the games are close and decided in the halfcourt, I'll take them in a heartbeat over some of these other teams.



> When you trade Kelvin Cato, your only dependable rebounder and best post defender, for Juwan Howard, you get worse.


You make it seem like Cato was an important part of the defensive identity of the team, when in actuality he played *fewer* minutes per game than Maurice Taylor, who you slammed in your analysis of the team. If Taylor is as bad as you claim he is, and if Cato was that valuable and the Rockets got worse for trading him, how on earth did a coach like Jeff Van Gundy play Taylor more than Cato?

The fact is that Taylor's a very sound offensive player who can score in the low post and regularly hit the midrange jumper and is much more valuable than you claim him to be. The fact is that Cato is mediocre at best and is not as valuable as a player who you can count on to regularly get you 15 points and 7 or 8 boards. Cato did make a positive impact defensively; I'll give you that. But if you watched Houston play, you'd also realize that he had a very negative impact on the offensive end, as defenders constantly sagged off him to block the entry pass to Yao Ming.

The Rockets will sign or trade for another PG like Antonio Daniels, Damon Jones or Mike James and place them as the starter, with the bench rotation of Lue, Piatkowski/Nachbar, Taylor and an additional big body that they'll sign later in the offseason. It's not the best bench in the league, but it's not bad. Taylor averaged the second most points in the league in terms of bench players last season. And all of that group will be better for playing off of McGrady and Yao.



> When you trade Steve Francis, an All-Star point guard, for Tyronn Lue, you get worse.


When you can acquire a player like Tracy McGrady and you already have a good and improving low post stud in Yao Ming, you aren't necessarily getting worse for dumping a turnover prone player who took too many shots at a bad percentage and can't play without the ball. Francis is a really good player, but he's not a great complementary player when you're trying to build around other things.

The Rockets will be a top 5 seed and make a lot of teams nervous in the playoffs. They aren't the most deep team in terms of talent, but a one-two punch like Yao and McGrady is enough for any reasonable person to put them there. Hell, the starting five could be Yao, McGrady and three of us, and they still might beat .500.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

Great post The Cat, you pretty much addressed all there is to on this subject.

The one concern I have is getting a solid backup C. When Yao gets into foul trouble early we aren't going to have a big guy like Cato to take his place. We won't be able to beat the best if Yao doesn't have a solid backup who is capable of playing 20 mpg. If we get desperate we could send Weatherspoon to Indiana for Pollard.

Mike James and Damon Jones are pulling Stephen Jackson's. Asking for way too much money right now and as the market cools down the Rocket's should have a decent shot at signing one for cheap.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Man, this post is all wrong.
> ...


You just described Derek Fisher and Tony Parker. Sorry, but it's a well known fact that you don't need a great, pure PG to win championships. Is it really all that difficult to understand when we've been given proof that it's true with multiple NBA champions in recent history? 



> And your comparison of Howard to Cato is misleading. Howard is a soft PF who isn't very athletic, doesn't grab strong rebounds, doesn't block shots, and is a very mediocre athlete. Sure he can put up some points, but he usually gives up just as many and can be quite a black hole on offense. Any team that has Juwan Howard playing major minutes at PF is going to be weak inside. Get ready for the matador defense. Cato is not a great player but he can rebound, block shots, and finish around the basket. The type of play needed next to Ming.


Are you seriously, honestly arguing that Cato and Howard don't have more or less the same impact on the court? Howard being the far superior scorer, and Cato being the better defender/rebounder? Honestly, there's not that much to argue here. And really, I wouldn't be surprised if Howard played well under a JVG system, someone who may be able to finally kick his butt in gear. 

And by the way, did you forget to mention that Cato has been a part time player or backup his entire career? The guy isn't *capable* of playing starter minutes to begin with. 



> That is not even remotely true.


Sure it is. Though, for some reason, this is the only board on the Internet that seems to think it isn't true. Go look at other boards for a change. Heck, go to a neutral board (say, a Kings board) and ask them about Tmac's performance last season. They aren't going to say it was comparable to his 2003 performance. 



> Rockets will have a good team, but they wont be serious contenders with Lue and Howard getting major mins. Even Lue said himself late last season that he doesnt deserve to be starting in the NBA.


Yes, like I said, they won't be in the upper echelon of the serious titles contenders, which I would consider being the Pistons, Spurs, Twolves and Kings, more or less.

edit; spelling.


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## sweet_constipation (Jul 3, 2004)

Nice post Cat.

Thing about Cato though is that he shouldn't have been starting at the 4 spot. No one I know likes to agree with me, but he's the best backup Center in the league.....when he actually plays the backup.
MoTaylor IS a pretty sound offensive player, but the guy has proven to be a joke when it comes to defense and rebounding.
A Joke.
As far as Steve, he put more effort towards defense, but he was still a bad defensive player. Mobley on the other hand was a very underrated defender this past season.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I'll co-sign with ArtestFan in this vain. I think the Orlando Magic will have a much better season than the Houston Rockets will. 

I just like the style of offense that Francis is going to be in and maybe Johnny Davis will prove that he can finally coach, even a little. :uhoh:


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> Sure it is. Though, for some reason, this is the only board on the Internet that seems to think it isn't true. Go look at other boards for a change. Heck, go to a neutral board (say, a Kings board) and ask them about Tmac's performance last season. They aren't going to say it was comparable to his 2003 performance.


It was a lesser year only in that McGrady shot a lower percentage. It was essentially equivalent in all other ways. So yes, it was a worse year, but not a "bad" year nor anywhere near a large enough drop-off from the previous year to explain the team's drop-off in wins.


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

Howard will do better when he will be the 3rd-4th option, instead of the 2nd option on offense. I think he will be a better defender than he has been his whole career, now that he has a good coach.


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## Flamesta (Jul 12, 2004)

JH is hopeless :no:


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

Thanks for the feedback, guys. Good discussion!

The Cat, your post was especially good, you should post here more often.



> Originally posted by <b>The Cat</b>!
> Yao Ming and Jeff Van Gundy. You instantly become a better defender when you have a 7'5 player behind you defending the basket.
> 
> Also, you instantly become a better defender when you play under Jeff Van Gundy, or you're not getting on the floor.


Well, my eyes must be failing me then. The Pacers also have one of the best defensive coaches in the league we also have a great big man patrolling the paint, and on top of that, we have the best perimeter defender in the game. Yet I saw Jamaal Tinsley (and even worse, Kenny Anderson) get burned over and over and over again this year by other teams' point guards.

Having a good coach is nice, but he can't wave a magic wand and turn a horrible defender into a good defender. At some point, if your defense sucks, it sucks. Van Gundy couldn't turn Mo Taylor into a good defender last year and he won't turn Tyronn Lue or Juwan Howard into good defenders this year. The Rockets have too many individually horrible defenders to be a good defensive team.



> I loved the Pistons winning the championship a month ago, but now I'm beginning to wish they hadn't, because it's putting entirely too much emphasis on depth. The Pistons were the exception of the last 25 years, not the rule. It's stars that win titles. Shaq and Kobe, Duncan and Robinson, Hakeem and Clyde, Jordan and Pippen, Magic and Kareem, Bird and McHale... you get the picture. Will Yao and TMac ever get to that level? Who knows. But they have incredible talent, and I'd rather take my chances with them than some team with a lot of good to very good players but no great players.


In the past 25 years, the Pistons are the only deep team with no superstars to win a *championship*, but they're hardly the only such team to be any good, as you imply. There have always been teams built on depth that were good or even very good, but didn't win the championship. Teams like last year's Grizzlies, the 2001 Bucks, and the 2000 Pacers and Blazers.

The truly great players, the Jordans and the Birds and the Hakeems, are able to take a team of scrubs and make it a title contender, and players like David Robinson and Kevin Garnett can take a team of scrubs and make it very good. But an "average superstar" like Tracy McGrady proved last year that he isn't that caliber of player (and I don't think he ever will be). I'm not just saying this because the Pistons won the title; deep teams have always been better than paper-thin teams led by a Tracy McGrady - caliber player. 



> You make it seem like Cato was an important part of the defensive identity of the team, when in actuality he played *fewer* minutes per game than Maurice Taylor, who you slammed in your analysis of the team. If Taylor is as bad as you claim he is, and if Cato was that valuable and the Rockets got worse for trading him, how on earth did a coach like Jeff Van Gundy play Taylor more than Cato?


Because Cato is the type of player who can only play a certain number of minutes a game, or else he'll get tired and lose his effectiveness. There are lots of good players like that in the NBA. Adonal Foyle is one, Jeff Foster is another. Jim Jackson played way more minutes than Yao Ming last year, does that mean Van Gundy think Jackson is better than Yao? No, it just means Yao gets tired if he plays more than 30 minutes per game.

If you go to 82games.com and look at Houston's performance with Cato in the lineup vs. their performance with Taylor in the lineup, it's quite obvious that Cato is the better player. Sorry, but I'll take those stats over your "If you watched Houston play more."



> The Rockets will sign or trade for another PG like Antonio Daniels, Damon Jones or Mike James and place them as the starter, with the bench rotation of Lue, Piatkowski/Nachbar, Taylor and an additional big body that they'll sign later in the offseason. It's not the best bench in the league, but it's not bad. Taylor averaged the second most points in the league in terms of bench players last season. And all of that group will be better for playing off of McGrady and Yao.


Let me tell you (and everyone else in this thread who mentioned him) a dirty little secret about Damon Jones: he sucks. He's yet another awful defender as if you need another one, and on offense his MO is to push the ball up the court really fast and chuck up a terrible shot with 16 seconds left on the shot-clock. If you ever visit a message board for Bucks fans, you'll find that almost all Bucks fans hated Damon Jones last year.

I actually really like Mike James, he's the only point guard left on the market who I think would help the Rockets much. But the Clippers and the Bobcats and many others need a point guard just as badly as the Rockets do and there's no guarantee that Houston will get him. I don't really think you have the trade bait to get Antonio Daniels. If you get a guy like James or Daniels, that's something, but that won't push you up more than a spot or two at best.



> The Rockets will be a top 5 seed and make a lot of teams nervous in the playoffs. They aren't the most deep team in terms of talent, but a one-two punch like Yao and McGrady is enough for any reasonable person to put them there. *Hell, the starting five could be Yao, McGrady and three of us, and they still might beat .500. *


Well, that's your opinion. If it doesn't work out for Houston, I don't want to see you blaming Houston's awful supporting cast, because if you do, I'll pull up this statement and laugh at you.

Good post though.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*those guys would've won period.*



> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> The truly great players, the Jordans and the *Birds* and the Hakeems, are able to take a team of scrubs and make it a title contender, and players like David Robinson and Kevin Garnett can take a team of scrubs and make it very good.


Kevin McHale and Robert Parish are scrubs?


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

*Re: those guys would've won period.*



> Originally posted by <b>sherako</b>!
> 
> Kevin McHale and Robert Parish are scrubs?


Maybe you should try to understand where I'm coming from instead of just assuming I'm saying something idiotic and then jumping right down my throat.

The year before Larry Bird was drafted, the Celtics won 29 games. Bird's rookie year, Parish and McHale still weren't Celtics, and Bird singlehandedly improved their record to 61-21. They didn't add Parish and McHale until Bird's second season.

Sheesh.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Well I also think the Rockets aren't going to be as good as 'experts' think but not because of T Mac. It is the other things AF has posted. They will be horrible defensively and will go Van Gundy style and try to cover it up by limiting possesions but will also be horrible rebounders so that won't work. I don't think people understand how difficult the West will be this year. Unlike last year when Utah, Denver, and Memphis came from nowhere to 'steal' a lot of early victories, every team in the West knows they have to come out the gate like gangbusters or they will not be in the playoffs.

Start out 3-8 and you might be 6 games out of the playoffs with 8 or 9 teams ahead of you who won't be falling back to the pack. I think this might be the best NBA season in recent history (thank NBA League Pass) and very game with a WC team will be heated. Coaches know they might be fired 20 games into the season, GMs have given most every team in the West more to work with than last year so the hooks will be coming out very quick. IMO only Golden State is a lock not to make the playoffs, every other team has a legit shot.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> I'll co-sign with ArtestFan in this vain. I think the Orlando Magic will have a much better season than the Houston Rockets will.


You must be joking? The Magic have no coaching. Francis and Mobley are going to do what they want. They'll be lucky to make the playoffs out east with that ramshackle bunch. Depth is nice if you have the coaching to turn average players into good ones. But I don't think Johnny Davis is going to do much with that talent.

As far as the Rockets. Has JVG ever missed the playoffs? I'm asking. I don't remember. It seems like his teams have always been very competitive no matter who was playing.

Fact of the matter is, the Rockets have what no team in the league besides Miami has. A center who can change the complexion of the game.

I fully expect Yao and JVG to get T-Mac's game back into shape. He can play defense, rebound and all of that. It's in his skill set. He just has to get his butt kicked around in practice a little bit. On offense he'll relish playing with a passing big man like Yao. And inversely, T-Mac will open the floor up for Yao even more.

Frankly if you watched the Rockets last year, they won in spite of Steve Francis a lot. Getting rid of him will help things, addition by subtraction.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> It was a lesser year only in that McGrady shot a lower percentage. It was essentially equivalent in all other ways. So yes, it was a worse year, but not a "bad" year nor anywhere near a large enough drop-off from the previous year to explain the team's drop-off in wins.


Oh right, sorry, I should have clarified. I didn't mean to say that the Magic's record had a direct, linear correlation to Tmac's poor 2004 season. I was merely saying that his poorer year was one of the bigger reasons the Magic sucked. In fact, perhaps moreso than his sorrier teammates in 2004.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

*Re: Re: those guys would've won period.*



> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Maybe you should try to understand where I'm coming from instead of just assuming I'm saying something idiotic and then jumping right down my throat.
> ...


Nice. :laugh:


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

Only way Houston will end up 10th is if Yao or T-Mac gets injured. 
I don't wanna bring up the Kobe/Shaq comparison, but at least they proved that 2 great players can carry a team to a 50+ win record despite a pathetic supporting cast. Who else was there for them in the 2002-03 season? Fisher, Fox, Horry, Mevdevenko, Rush, Russell, Horace Grant.... Anyways point is I'll take Jim Jackson, Juwan Howard, Mo Taylor and co. over them any day. What made things worked for Lakers was that everyone knew their role - spot up shooters, defensive specialists, rebounders, etc. Gumby's a great coach, and I'm sure he'll put everyone into place by mid-season.

Anyway like I've been saying let's just all sit back and see how Yao and T-Mac play together when the season begins... I can tell you right now that Yao is in the best shape of his young career right now.


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## snowmt (Jan 28, 2003)

Artest Fan,

Most of the bonafide superstars you mentioned are either top 10 players of all time 
or post players. It's much harder for a superstar swingman to lead a competitive 
team than a superstar post player(that's why they are more valuable). And TMac's 
supporting cast did suck last year. Put Kobe in TMac's shoes, he wouldn't have done 
much better.

Moreover, Houston will not be a team led by TMac only. It's TMac/Yao so your 
one-superstar argument becomes inaccurate. In fact, HOU will be more of a 
Yao-centered team. One of the major reasons Francis was shipped out is he 
doesn't fit with Yao's game. As great as Tmac, HOU will go as far as Yao takes them.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Cat</b>!
> 
> 
> A lot of it has to do with Grant Hill declaring himself healthy at the beginning of the seasons when those predictions were made.
> ...


I didnt read this post but some loser next to this post said it was a good post. so I replied.

So NBA media were predicting that Hill was ready so they had high expectation on the Magic. OKay, that's rationale.

But the team without Hill was the worst the team in the league. But with Hill, the team would be great, right?

So im summary, Hill then is the true superstar on the team, not T-Mac. Losers!


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## The Cat (Jul 14, 2002)

I'll respond to your post in a second, AF. Thanks for the props!



> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> But the team without Hill was the worst the team in the league. But with Hill, the team would be great, right?
> 
> So im summary, Hill then is the true superstar on the team, not T-Mac. Losers!


No one said the team would be *great* with Hill. No one was predicting conference finals for this squad at any point in McGrady's career in Orlando. But they did project them to be a middle seed in the playoffs, while the best they ever got was 7 or 8 and of course last year when everything fell apart. I think a second star can very reasonably be the difference between a decent 40-45 win season and being under 30 wins.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Cat</b>!
> I'll respond to your post in a second, AF. Thanks for the props!
> 
> 
> ...


Great or not, T-mac's team was the worst team in the NBA!


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

Im not gonna come in and predict doom for the Rockets, but i see where Artestfan and HKF are coming from. I do think they have about a 50% chance of missing the playoffs, for a few reasons...

1) They are by far the thinnest of the West playoff teams. This is not even debatable. They are gonna have long stretches in games when they cannot score at all. They will have to squeeze every point out of their starters as possible.

2) The two superstars have never played together before. It took a while for Francis and Mobley to get used to Yao and they still were only halfway there. It will take at least 30 games for them to really get in the flow of the offense, but probably more. And this is all dependent on....

3) If Yao plays to his potential. In my honest opinion Yao's lauding is due to the fact that he is a center, and the league has such little quality at that position, and that he has such upside. Realistically, he has yet to put up over 18ppg and even 10 boards even at 7'5'', boards the rockets need BIG TIME now that you add Juwan Howard and take away Kelvin Cato, just look, people say the Lakers have a weak frontcourt but the Rockets are gonna be a much worse rebounding team than the Lakers will. Waaay to much of a stretch to say these guys are Kobe-Shaq material, especially since T-Mac isnt exactly the type of guy who is gonna make his team better, he is more of a "im gonna get mine" player


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## The Cat (Jul 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> Well, my eyes must be failing me then. The Pacers also have one of the best defensive coaches in the league we also have a great big man patrolling the paint, and on top of that, we have the best perimeter defender in the game. Yet I saw Jamaal Tinsley (and even worse, Kenny Anderson) get burned over and over and over again this year by other teams' point guards.


I agree; Tinsley isn't a good defender. But he certainly wasn't as bad as Lue last season, and I do believe part of it had to do with his interior help. There are varying degrees of below average. Also, I think Pacer point guards all generally suffer because of Ron Artest. With Artest guarding the other team's top swingman and O'Neal guarding the post player, I'd wager that opposing points shoot a lot more against the Pacers than other teams because they realize that the other guys will have a harder time scoring points.



> Having a good coach is nice, but he can't wave a magic wand and turn a horrible defender into a good defender. At some point, if your defense sucks, it sucks. Van Gundy couldn't turn Mo Taylor into a good defender last year and he won't turn Tyronn Lue or Juwan Howard into good defenders this year. The Rockets have too many individually horrible defenders to be a good defensive team.


I'm not expecting JVG to turn them into good defenders; merely passable ones. Like I said, if you go back in time and look at tapes of Steve Francis before last year, he was _horrible_ on the defensive end. With Van Gundy's help and with the excellent team defense that he preaches, he made it to where Francis wasn't much of a liability. He wasn't good, but he made it to where it didn't kill us. Also, remember how well Lue defended Iverson in the 2001 Finals? Lue does have a little bit of defensive ability, and he'll have more freedom to give ball pressure to opposing points (like he did with the Lakers) given that he has Yao behind him.

I don't think we'll agree on that, though, so let's make a bet.  I don't know what we can really wager - maybe the loser makes a thread next April to confess their poor prediction - but I'll say the Rockets hold opponents under 88 points a game.



> In the past 25 years, the Pistons are the only deep team with no superstars to win a *championship*, but they're hardly the only such team to be any good, as you imply. There have always been teams built on depth that were good or even very good, but didn't win the championship. Teams like last year's Grizzlies, the 2001 Bucks, and the 2000 Pacers and Blazers.
> 
> The truly great players, the Jordans and the Birds and the Hakeems, are able to take a team of scrubs and make it a title contender, and players like David Robinson and Kevin Garnett can take a team of scrubs and make it very good. But an "average superstar" like Tracy McGrady proved last year that he isn't that caliber of player (and I don't think he ever will be). I'm not just saying this because the Pistons won the title; deep teams have always been better than paper-thin teams led by a Tracy McGrady - caliber player.


Sorry - I didn't mean to imply they can't be good. They can be very good, but they won't be great in the regular season, and they generally underachieve in the playoffs. I think the Rockets starpower neutralizes any advantage in depth the other teams have, and said stars will generally help them to be a more effective team late in games and maybe steal a few more games than they deserved to win.

(Also, fwiw, I'm expecting Yao Ming to be at least on McGrady's level next season, so I'm not sure if I would compare McGrady to the situations like Robinson and Garnett had. I know this is based on expectation more than reality, but I think given the circumstances that we can assume Yao's in for a big year. If he stays at the same 18 and 9 level, though, you may be right.)



> Because Cato is the type of player who can only play a certain number of minutes a game, or else he'll get tired and lose his effectiveness. There are lots of good players like that in the NBA. Adonal Foyle is one, Jeff Foster is another. Jim Jackson played way more minutes than Yao Ming last year, does that mean Van Gundy think Jackson is better than Yao? No, it just means Yao gets tired if he plays more than 30 minutes per game.
> 
> If you go to 82games.com and look at Houston's performance with Cato in the lineup vs. their performance with Taylor in the lineup, it's quite obvious that Cato is the better player. Sorry, but I'll take those stats over your "If you watched Houston play more."


Jackson and Yao played different positions, though, so I don't think that's a fair comparison. Cato and Taylor generally played the same position, with Cato stealing a few spot minutes at center when Yao would sit down.

I'm not a huge fan of +- numbers, because they're very dependent on the players with you at the time you're in the lineup. The Rockets bench was worse last season... a 40-year-old Mark Jackson, a constantly injured Eric Piatkowski and Scott Padgett were generally the three other guys in the bench rotation besides Mo. When you consider that Mo is putting in several minutes each game with those players and that Cato is generally playing with Francis and/or Mobley and Yao, it's to be expected that they'll have a better +- number with Cato on the floor.



> Let me tell you (and everyone else in this thread who mentioned him) a dirty little secret about Damon Jones: he sucks. He's yet another awful defender as if you need another one, and on offense his MO is to push the ball up the court really fast and chuck up a terrible shot with 16 seconds left on the shot-clock. If you ever visit a message board for Bucks fans, you'll find that almost all Bucks fans hated Damon Jones last year.
> 
> I actually really like Mike James, he's the only point guard left on the market who I think would help the Rockets much. But the Clippers and the Bobcats and many others need a point guard just as badly as the Rockets do and there's no guarantee that Houston will get him. I don't really think you have the trade bait to get Antonio Daniels. If you get a guy like James or Daniels, that's something, but that won't push you up more than a spot or two at best.


I'll agree to disagree here. I'm a TJ Ford fan, so I watched the Bucks on League Pass whenever I had a chance, and I was really impressed with Jones. I thought he was an excellent shooter and that he generally made good decisions with distributing the ball. To be fair, I don't remember much about his defense, but I thought about his offense and how I'd like to have it on our team.

As far as trading Daniels, the Rockets would in all likelihood be giving a future first-round pick. The Sonics need to rebuild, and they want to give Ridnour more playing time... it's a deal that would make some sense for both teams. Houston has a 6.9M trade exception, so they have some flexibility in dealing.



> Well, that's your opinion. If it doesn't work out for Houston, I don't want to see you blaming Houston's awful supporting cast, because if you do, I'll pull up this statement and laugh at you.
> 
> Good post though.


Thanks, and I can tell you ahead of time that you won't hear that from me. If McGrady and Yao elevate their games to the point I expect them to and also stay healthy, it's almost impossible (imo) for this team to not win 50 games. If this team fails, I'll put the blame squarely on one or both of the stars that didn't maximize the incredible talent they have.


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## The Cat (Jul 14, 2002)

> Great or not, T-mac's team was the worst team in the NBA!


12 players win and lose games, not one. If there's one stat that I really can't stand, it's comparing players based on the win-loss record of their respective teams. Those 11 other players and the coaching staff might have had just a _little_ to do with the results as well.



> especially since T-Mac isnt exactly the type of guy who is gonna make his team better, he is more of a "im gonna get mine" player


Disagree.

If McGrady wanted to get his, he would've stayed in Orlando or forced a trade to a team where he could be the man. He wouldn't have chosen Houston, which is still clearly Yao Ming's team. It was his team last season, and it's why Francis isn't here and why so many changes were made. Before anyone else, Yao will be the number one offensive priority for this team, and he always will be. And McGrady knew this when he asked to be traded to Houston.

Unlike Kobe, McGrady *has* been in situations where he can get all the shots he wants, and he's figured out that it sucks because you don't win that way. I think TMac will be a different player in a situation where he actually has help and has a chance to win.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

I just didnt like that trade for the Rockets one bit. You could say what you wanted about Francis, but the guy went balls out every single night, playing out of position even. No one could ever question his effort, and unfortunately you can question T-Mac's. And Mobley was just sweet. Plus Cato? T-mac is all about points really - he doesnt bring too much else to the table, combined Mobley/Francis get you a few more points than Tmac, and Cato loses the boards, defense Tmac ISNT gonna give you. They probably could have done Francis for Iverson str8 up, which i would have liked 100 percent more than what went down

On a sort of related note am i the only one who thinks Tmac should switch to the 3...? i know you'd lose the matchup advantage but he would probably be a really good defender at that position, plus learn a bit more of a slashing game- i dont like how he's evolving into a jumpshooter first slasher second, it should be the other way around. He is a natural 3 does anyone have any more imput?


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Cat</b>!
> 
> I don't think we'll agree on that, though, so let's make a bet.  I don't know what we can really wager - maybe the loser makes a thread next April to confess their poor prediction - but I'll say the Rockets hold opponents under 88 points a game.


No need for a bet, because one way or another, this thread will get bumped in April. The Franchise likes to laugh at me because I always bring up old threads, so I have no doubt he'll bump this thread if the Rockets are a good team.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> You just described Derek Fisher and Tony Parker. Sorry, but it's a well known fact that you don't need a great, pure PG to win championships. Is it really all that difficult to understand when we've been given proof that it's true with multiple NBA champions in recent history?





What? Parker can't initiate a fast break, or Popovich doesn't want him to initiate a fast break? Parker can't create for others, or the offensive scheme won't allow him to create for others?


I'm sorry, but Parker is not on the same level as Derek Fisher and Tyronn Lue. As a matter of fact, when Parker is in his prime, Fisher and Lue won't even be breathed in the same sentence as Tony Parker. 



Anyway, as I mentioned during the Rockets/Lakers series in the playoffs, they need a bench, just like ArtestFan said. Their bench stunk last year, and their bench might stink again. However, I do think you stopped short on a couple of players, namely Jim Jackson. Jim Jackson is not a very good player, but he's a very solid role player that's only going to be asked to play physical defense and hit some threes. Maurice Taylor as a poor man's Juwan Howard? If that's the case, Taylor would not play one more minute in this league. Taylor is a very nice scorer to come off the bench, only when you have a player that compliments him well (Like Cato). The Rockets should be better, depending on their bench, but I don't think they are serious title contenders yet.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In 2003, when Parker was the starting PG for the Spurs, he wasn't smart or talented enough to do any of those things. Late 2004 Parker looked like a different animal, though still with the inconsistency problems. And he *still* has a streaky shot. 

That said, I am of course aware that both Parker and Fisher are better than Lue. I'm simply making the point that neither were more than average PGs during the Lakers and Spurs title runs. 



> I'm sorry, but Parker is not on the same level as Derek Fisher and Tyronn Lue. As a matter of fact, when Parker is in his prime, Fisher and Lue won't even be breathed in the same sentence as Tony Parker.


On the whole, Parker hasn't had *that* much better of a career than Fisher. Fisher is the far superior shooter (though still streaky), much more steady/consistent player night in and night out, and an equally good (though both are still average) defender. Parker is a better scorer and passer, and is much quicker (off the dribble specifically) on the whole. Anyway, I was talking about Lakers title run Fisher versus Spurs title run Parker. Neither were much better than the other by any *significant* margin during those years. I have no doubt Parker will have a much better overall career, though. Assuming he gets his consistency problems in order. 



> Anyway, as I mentioned during the Rockets/Lakers series in the playoffs, they need a bench, just like ArtestFan said. Their bench stunk last year, and their bench might stink again. However, I do think you stopped short on a couple of players, namely Jim Jackson. Jim Jackson is not a very good player, but he's a very solid role player that's only going to be asked to play physical defense and hit some threes. Maurice Taylor as a poor man's Juwan Howard? If that's the case, Taylor would not play one more minute in this league. Taylor is a very nice scorer to come off the bench, only when you have a player that compliments him well (Like Cato). The Rockets should be better, depending on their bench, but I don't think they are serious title contenders yet.


The reason I call the Rockets a contender (albeit, lower tier) is because two great players are usually enough to carry a team far. Again, we've seen it before, it's nothing new.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Comparing Fisher playing in the prime of his career against Parker around the age of 20 seems kind of short sighted. It's just bound to come off wrong.

Parker brings more to the table than Fisher. He's just playing in a system that he has to adjust to, as opposed to the system being built around him. Parker is a slashing scoring kind of guard, and he's having to learn leadership and how to create for others, and still get his in the flow of the game. It will come. He's shown flashes of utter brilliance already, and he's still young. I don't agree with putting him and Derek Fisher together in any sort of comparison, regardless of the supposed merit.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Comparing Fisher playing in the prime of his career against Parker around the age of 20 seems kind of short sighted. It's just bound to come off wrong.
> 
> Parker brings more to the table than Fisher. He's just playing in a system that he has to adjust to, as opposed to the system being built around him. Parker is a slashing scoring kind of guard, and he's having to learn leadership and how to create for others, and still get his in the flow of the game. It will come. He's shown flashes of utter brilliance already, and he's still young. I don't agree with putting him and Derek Fisher together in any sort of comparison, regardless of the supposed merit.


Well, I really can't see how you can argue that Parker was all that much better than Fisher during the Lakers/Spurs title runs up to 2003. Parker was better, but certainly not by much. Of course Parker was young then, but that was never the point; the point was that you can have a streaky, young and inexperienced PG like Parker and still win a title if you have other great pieces around you and the right coaching. 

As I said before, I'm perfectly aware that Parker will very likely have the much better career than Fisher.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

I see where you are coming from EHL, but I've got a little bias towards Tony Parker, and I fail to see how he is being compared to Derek Fisher and Tyronn Lue. Derek Fisher is a pretty good player, but outside of his big shots that he's hit over his career, there's not much that he's done.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> The Rockets will sign or trade for another PG like Antonio Daniels, Damon Jones or Mike James and place them as the starter, with the bench rotation of Lue, Piatkowski/Nachbar, Taylor and an additional big body that they'll sign later in the offseason. It's not the best bench in the league, but it's not bad. Taylor averaged the second most points in the league in terms of bench players last season. And all of that group will be better for playing off of McGrady and Yao.


Damon Jones: signed by the Heat
Mike James: signed by the Bucks

I'm still drumming my fingers waiting to see who the Rockets' starting point guard is going to be. Who are they going to sign to shore up their backcourt? Or if there will be a trade, who is their trade bait?


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

I agree with ArtestFan.
I think the Houston Rockets will be the biggest dissapointment of the season measured by media expectations and it doesn't need an injury to TMac or Yao. 
If one of them got injured they would be worse than the Magic last season not just "non-playoff".
If they make the playoffs it will be fight for the last seeds in my opinion.
And the Shaq/Kobe comparison is not valid. For one are Kobe and Shaq both individually better players, in Shaq's case much better. They also have the attitude and the killer instinct to win.

They also had better supporting casts (still bad but not that bad) in my opinion.

Yao and TMac are the wussie version of Shaq and Kobe not the 2nd coming. If you could have Shaq and TMac or Yao and Kobe that would be much different because you would have either Shaq or Kobe bringing an edge to the team.

Cato anchored their defense last season and really helped Yao because Yao had an easy time playing behind Cato and guarding simply the rim.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

Charlie Ward is still available for a low price, and Carroll Dawson is going to be patient if he tries to trade for a PG... but I have no specific names in mind.

It's possible the Rockets are sizing up some foreign PG's right now.


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## Jordan4life_2004 (Jul 24, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>The Cat</b>!
> 
> 
> A lot of it has to do with Grant Hill declaring himself healthy at the beginning of the seasons when those predictions were made.
> ...



EXCELLENT post by thecat. I was gonna make a post of my own saying basically everything you said. But since you already did. I don't have to.


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## shoprite (Dec 18, 2002)

> Cato anchored their defense last season and really helped Yao because Yao had an easy time playing behind Cato and guarding simply the rim.


I think you haven't watched enough Rockets last season. Yao anchored defense from what I saw. Huston's defense has gone from bad to very solid since Yao's arrival.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Good thread. This is really generating some quality discussion on both sides of the issue. Artest Fan, while I don't agree with you, you've made a great case for your opinion and I respect it. The Cat has done a great job arguing for the pro-Houston side. 

One thing I would like to say though is, if you take Yao away from the Rockets, they are seriously almost exactly like last year's Magic team. Granted, Yao makes them a lot better, but does he really make the team 30 wins better?

03-04 Magic....04-05 Rockets
PG: Tyronn Lue/Reece Gaines | Tyronn Lue/Reece Gaines
Here we obviously have the same two players, so there's litterally no difference in the two barring an miraculous breakout season by Lue or Gaines. 

SG: Tracy McGrady/Keith Bogans | Tracy McGrady/Eric Piatowski
T-Mac equals T-Mac obviously, and I'll actually give the to the Orlando Magic here because Bogans and Piatowski are both good 3-point shooters, but Bogans can rebound and defend too. Regardless, T-Mac is the big difference maker here anyway.

SF: DeShawn Stevenson/Britton Johnsen | Jim Jackson/Bostjan Nachbar/Adrian Griffin
Neither are very good here, neither the starters nor the bench are really good. Stevenson isn't far behind Jackson in terms of scoring, but Jackson is a lot better rebounding and defensively. Nachbar and Griffin are garbage as were Britton Johnsen, Derrick Dial, Desmond Penigar, etc. 

PF: Juwan Howard/Drew Gooden | PF: Juwan Howard/ Mo Taylor
Little to no difference here at all. Howard= Howard, Gooden=Taylor. Gooden and Taylor are similar players in terms of style and production, really no gain for Houston here either. 

C: Andrew DeClercq/Zaza Pachulia/Sean Rooks | Clarence Weatherspoon???
Remember I'm comparing the two teams taking away Yao. The center position totally sucks for both squads minus Yao. You have to say Orlando's centers are better, but they're still awful.

So there you have it. The 2003-2004 Orlando Magic are arguably better than, at least as good as the 2004-2005 Houston Rockets minus Yao Ming. Take into account that they're playing in the West and not the East, you're probably looking at a team that won't win 20 games without Yao. The million dollar question is just how much of an effect Yao Ming will have on the win total. It'll be interesting to see how much better he makes McGrady, if at all. The other wild card in this equation is the obvious huge upgrade in head coaches from Johnny Davis to Jeff Van Gundy.


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## Jordan4life_2004 (Jul 24, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> Good thread. This is really generating some quality discussion on both sides of the issue. Artest Fan, while I don't agree with you, you've made a great case for your opinion and I respect it. The Cat has done a great job arguing for the pro-Houston side.
> 
> One thing I would like to say though is, if you take Yao away from the Rockets, they are seriously almost exactly like last year's Magic team. Granted, Yao makes them a lot better, but does he really make the team 30 wins better?
> ...


Nice post. But you do have to take in account the previous 3 years. T-mac pretty much single handedly got the Magic into the playoffs. With Yao/Van Gundy, it's easy to see why this Rockets team can be very good.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> The other wild card in this equation is the obvious huge upgrade in head coaches from Johnny Davis to Jeff Van Gundy.


You also have Jim Jackson who can consistently sink treys, he can act as Pat Garrity did to McGrady a couple years back. And how good did the Magic do with Pat Garrity as opposed to no Pat Garrity?


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## rocketsthathavespurs (Jul 17, 2004)

o my gosh why the heck do yall(some) think the rockets will be in lottery you adressed this all wrong.


1.undcieded
2.jim jackson(one of the most underrated player in the nba averaged around 13.5 pt and great ball handler and good defense player
3.t-mac(best scorer and has chance to be best defender)
4.howad(averaged 17 and 8 how is that bad?)
5.yao(can be the best center of all time and now is an allstar.)


nachbar(great defense player and spot up shooter)
griffin(great defender but realy can shoot)
wilks(great play maker but not to much know)
piakouski(lead the frachise clippers in 3pts made)
taylor(very good offense play but needs to work on defense)
gundy is one of the best coaches in the nba so that helps to

i pridict rockets get around 4th or 5th seed.

ps u dont no what you are talking about and you probaly have never seen a rockets game ever. you probaly are just a tmac hater who doesnt want him to do well. or ur scared of the rockets.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Jordan4life_2004</b>!
> 
> 
> Nice post. But you do have to take in account the previous 3 years. T-mac pretty much single handedly got the Magic into the playoffs. With Yao/Van Gundy, it's easy to see why this Rockets team can be very good.


I defitinely agree with you there, I was simply throwing that out there for discussion purposes. I don't think the Rockets will be bad, I think they're a mid-low playoff team in the West. Ming Bling makes a good point about Pat Garrity, I think Eric Piatowski can serve as the Garrity for the Rockets this season and spread the court to give T-Mac more room to drive in the lane. Garrity was an underrated member of the Magic's playoff teams for the past few seasons before last year. The Magic probably missed Garrity as much as anyone other than Darrell Armstrong last season. I really think that may be missing from the Rockets this season that the Magic also missed last season, and that is a veteran leader who hustles a lot, is a really high energy guy, and a good guy to have in the locker room. Who's going to be the teams vocal leader?


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rocketsthathavespurs</b>!
> o my gosh why the heck do yall(some) think the rockets will be in lottery you adressed this all wrong.
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, it's easy to put spin on stuff isn't it?

Name me the last NBA team that won a championship without at least a contributing point guard? (Billups, Parker, Fisher, Harper, etc.)?

Jim Jackson is 34 years old, and had a great year last year, but can you really count on someone who's 34 years old to be able to step up for 82 games next year? Because you'll need all 82 games.

T-Mac is a great scorer, nothing special on defense, but he's still a good defender. None of this top-tier bull**** some of you are trying to spin.

Howard was the annual "Great Stats On A Bad Team" Award winner from last year. He contributed 17 and 7 to a team that won 5 games. Terrific! He still can't play defense. 

Yao Ming, greatest center of all-time? Please. He's a good player though, I don't know what to expect from him this year though. He could break out, stagnate, or this could even be the year his body just decides "hey, you've been playing for 3 straight years now, I'm quitting."

Everything you said about the bench is absolute horse****. Piatkowski can shoot, Mo Taylor can score inside, other than that they all absolutely suck. They have no business being on a basketball court.

Van Gundy IS a good coach, maybe even a great coach in todays NBA, but good coaching doesn't magically turn bad, bad, BAD defensive players like Howard and Lue into great defensive studs.

And as to your PS, it wouldn't matter if we had seen a Rockets game; this is a whole new animal. You can dislike a team without being a hater, or without being scare. You DO know that right? Because you always seem to ask people for their opinions on things and then blast them on it, and I'm starting to wonder why you ask at all.


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## rocketsthathavespurs (Jul 17, 2004)

ok fine im just saying what i think thats it. nothing more or less. ill listen to what you say but i dont have to agree with it. i dont blast them but it might sound diffrent on the computer and i guess its just diffrence of an opion and we will see about the rockets this season. o and ps........ u are a huge hyporcrite(not that i can even spell it lol) saying that i blast everyone (wich isnt true) and u blast me lol! plus its my opion u can agree with it or ignore it. im not forcing it on you or i dont like u less i just think u need to get ur facts straight before u run ur mouth. this website is sopposed to be fun place where u can share i deas not yell at people and im just sharring my ideas.


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## sweet_constipation (Jul 3, 2004)

Can be 7th or 8th seed.
They aren't the deepest team, but a nice core group.
Also, while Howard has the rap of being one of those stat guys on a bad team, he has proven he could be a good '3rd' or '4th' guy to compliment the stars.
They DO need another point, and they NEED someone decent to back up Ming as he isn't a big minute player for 82+ games.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Hey, if they really have a $6.9million trade exception, perhaps we could work out a deal? You guys take Waltah & Chucky Atkins, we'll take the exception. Hey, we'll even throw in Jumaine Jones.


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## rocketsthathavespurs (Jul 17, 2004)

lol


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## The Cat (Jul 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Damon Jones: signed by the Heat
> ...


Trade exception, first round picks, Piatkowski, etc.

The Rockets aren't fools. Damon Jones signed for 2.5 million to be a backup with the Heat... the Rockets wouldn't have let that happen unless they had a clear plan for what to do. I don't know who it is, but the Rockets aren't dumb enough to let Jones go for that if they didn't have another alternative.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: without significant injuries, the Rockets will be a top five seed, and possibly a top three seed. You guys can go on and on about depth all you want, but to think that a team with elite starpower like Tracy McGrady and Yao Ming will finish 7th or 8th or even out of the playoffs is absurd.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Matt85163</b>!
> Everything you said about the bench is absolute horse****. Piatkowski can shoot, Mo Taylor can score inside, other than that they all absolutely suck. They have no business being on a basketball court.


piatkowski can shoot and when he's playing alongside tmac and yao it will be very important to have guys that can hit open jumpers. piat is definately a guy that can stand around and hit 3s when other guys get double team.

mo taylor can score. he's not a good rebounder or defender but he is a very good scorer off the bench. he was one of the top 6th men in the entire league last year. he definately has business on the basketball court(maybe not starting), and is a very good player off the bench.


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## sweet_constipation (Jul 3, 2004)

Hey Cat, do you think they'll use their exception on Payton?


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

Seems to me the only guys who think the rockets are not at best a fringe playoff team are rockets fans


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Are the Rockets really better than the Mavericks, Lakers, Grizzlies, Jazz and Suns? I doubt that they are.

The Mutombo trade would help them, but they'd still have no PG and their backup guards and SFs would still be very very weak.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> Are the Rockets really better than the Mavericks, Lakers, Grizzlies, Jazz and Suns? I doubt that they are.
> 
> The Mutombo trade would help them, but they'd still have no PG and their backup guards and SFs would still be very very weak.


Why are the Suns included in that group? By adding Q-Rich and Nash, and losing two more frontcourt players on an already horrible defensive team especially up front, a 29 win team turns into a top tier team in the league? They will be awful defensively.


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## rocketsthathavespurs (Jul 17, 2004)

:sour: they are going to trade or sighn a pg thnx lol


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> 
> 
> Why are the Suns included in that group? By adding Q-Rich and Nash, and losing two more frontcourt players on an already horrible defensive team especially up front, a 29 win team turns into a top tier team in the league? They will be awful defensively.


They're another version of the Dallas Mavericks. They will put a lot of points up on the board.


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## The Cat (Jul 14, 2002)

I think they'd take Payton if the Celtics are willing to give him up. If I had to bet though, I'd say that Boston is keeping him.



> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> Seems to me the only guys who think the rockets are not at best a fringe playoff team are rockets fans


It seems to me that every reputable NBA analyst (see projections at espn.com, nba.com, cbssportsline.com and other sources) has the Rockets as *at least* the 5 seed in the West.



> Are the Rockets really better than the Mavericks, Lakers, Grizzlies, Jazz and Suns? I doubt that they are.


By *far*. It's not even that close. The Lakers are the only team among that group that has a bonafide star, although I'll give credit to the Mavs and Suns for each having a player on the cusp of that level. The Rockets have *two* players on the star level.

I don't want to come off as arrogant, and I apologize if I do - it's not my intent. I want to have a real debate. But are you guys kidding me here? You can surround Tracy McGrady and Yao Ming with 10 of the worst players in the entire league and I'd still pick them to make the playoffs over almost all the teams you listed above. Without any hesitation. They could start Reece Gaines, Clarence Weatherspoon and Adrian Griffin with McGrady and Yao and still be better than most of those teams.

This isn't baseball or football where 9 to 11 players play at one time. Despite whatever depth these other teams might have, the Rockets will have *Tracy McGrady* and *Yao Ming* on the floor at the same time for all but about 10 minutes of every single game. Think about that. Starpower wins games, and two stars in basketball is incredible. There is only one ball to go around, so you guys can go ahead and take the 9-10 deep teams. I'll take the stars, and judging by the last 25 years or so, history tells me I'm more likely to be right.


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## J Blaze (Jun 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>The Cat</b>!
> 
> 
> A lot of it has to do with Grant Hill declaring himself healthy at the beginning of the seasons when those predictions were made.
> ...


This post basicly answered everything ArtestGuy asked. Nothing left to add on really.


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

> I don't want to come off as arrogant, and I apologize if I do - it's not my intent. I want to have a real debate. But are you guys kidding me here? You can surround Tracy McGrady and Yao Ming with 10 of the worst players in the entire league and I'd still pick them to make the playoffs over almost all the teams you listed above. Without any hesitation. They could start Reece Gaines, Clarence Weatherspoon and Adrian Griffin with McGrady and Yao and still be better than most of those teams.


Are _you_ kidding _us_ ? You apparently learned absolutely nothing from the 2003-2004 Orlando Magic. You surround T-Mac with that team. And watch him start kicking balls into the stands out of frustration.



> The Rockets have two players on the star level.


Sorry, you lose! The correct answer was: *one*. If Yao is a star, I'm the Queen of England.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> 
> 
> Are _you_ kidding _us_ ? You apparently learned absolutely nothing from the 2003-2004 Orlando Magic. You surround T-Mac with that team. And watch him start kicking balls into the stands out of frustration.
> ...


Do you have something against Yao? We're talking about a young guy who is already the best center in the league not named Shaq. 

There is a big difference between a one star team like Orlando and a two star team like Houston will have, especially when one of those guys is a potentially dominant big man.


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## rocketsthathavespurs (Jul 17, 2004)

stop drinken the haterade lol u no the rockets are going to be greatttttttt.


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## The Cat (Jul 14, 2002)

> Are you kidding us ? You apparently learned absolutely nothing from the 2003-2004 Orlando Magic. You surround T-Mac with that team. And watch him start kicking balls into the stands out of frustration.


Were Yao Ming and Jeff Van Gundy parts of the 2003-2004 Orlando Magic? I didn't think so.



> Sorry, you lose! The correct answer was: one. If Yao is a star, I'm the Queen of England.


Then I guess you should get fitted for your crown.  

In just his second season, Yao averaged 18 points and 9 rebounds on over 52 percent shooting as a big man in the loaded Western Conference. That's also with a shoot-first point guard and a team of players used to isolation basketball and unfamiliar with quality spacing for an inside-out offense. That's with a power forward in Kelvin Cato who has no range outside of two feet and allowed opposing power forwards to double team Yao almost every possession. Yao was doubled almost every time he touched the ball, and he single-handedly opened up the floor for many of our other players. He also started in the All-Star game and was on the All-NBA third team, so it's obvious people around the league also look at him as a star.

And all of that isn't even considering the fact that it's all but a _sure thing_ that Yao will take greater steps this season. Take a look at Dirk, Peja, or almost any player from overseas... they don't really stop improving until their fifth or sixth year in the league. They just have so much to learn and improve on that it's ridiculous to assume they're anywhere near their peak after their first or second season. Last offseason was Yao's _first_ to ever work on his upper body, so that's just one example of where he will continue to improve in the years to come.

Yao is already a star, and given his talent, work ethic and the natural progression of players it would be foolish to assume that he wouldn't push 20 and 10 this season. And if you don't consider that a star at the center position, I'm not sure what I can say.


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## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> Good thread. This is really generating some quality discussion on both sides of the issue. Artest Fan, while I don't agree with you, you've made a great case for your opinion and I respect it. The Cat has done a great job arguing for the pro-Houston side.
> 
> One thing I would like to say though is, if you take Yao away from the Rockets, they are seriously almost exactly like last year's Magic team. Granted, Yao makes them a lot better, but does he really make the team 30 wins better?
> ...


Whoa, there are a lot of things wrong with this post. First, as a Magic fan I think you realize that while the Magic weren't a good team they shouldn't have been the worse team in the league; that was somewhat of a fluke. Second, I think you are underestimating the impact of a center like Yao Ming. If Yao had been on the Magic last year I'd have to think they would have won twice as many games. A player Yao's size commands double teams and is somebody that the offense can run through. Think about how many easy dunks he's going to get off of T-Mac's penetration. They'll be off of passes that DeClercq usually fumbles out of bounds but with Yao that changes everything. On the defensive end, Yao anchors the defense and makes everybody else look good. Finally, the biggest difference between the two teams is the coach. Jeff Van Gundy is a million times better than Johnny Davis. I think if you switch Van Gundy with JD last year and change nothing else the Magic would have won at least 30 games. Van Gundy and Yao alone make Houston a great defensive team. We all know T-Mac has the tools to be a top defender and with Yao taking a lot of the load off his shoulders on offense he should be able to shut down opposing wings like he did in Toronto. My point is, your comparison is unfair. The Rockets will sign somebody with the MLE, but even if they don't there is no way, barring injury, that the Rockets will miss the playoffs.


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

> Do you have something against Yao? We're talking about a young guy who is already the best center in the league not named Shaq.


That really says something about the quality of today's centers then. He's still young and has potential. He's also really tall. And he's also as soft as Jell-O and incredibly slow. All qualities of a great cent... err, nevermind. There's _at least_ half a dozen PF's I would rather have than him (and needless to say, they're all bigger than him, which is a bigger asset than height). Potential aside, he is not on the level Rockets fans are putting him on. They even think he'll actually be the #1 offensive option, which is so rediculous it boggles my mind. He wasn't even the best player on that team _last year_.


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## J Blaze (Jun 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> 
> 
> That really says something about the quality of today's centers then. He's still young and has potential. He's also really tall. And he's also as soft as Jell-O and incredibly slow. All qualities of a great cent... err, nevermind. There's _at least_ half a dozen PF's I would rather have than him (and needless to say, they're all bigger than him, which is a bigger asset than height). Potential aside, he is not on the level Rockets fans are putting him on. They even think he'll actually be the #1 offensive option, which is so rediculous it boggles my mind. He wasn't even the best player on that team _last year_.


Averaging 18 and 9 in your 2nd season is definitely above average for a center coming from another country and culture. Yao's culture is to not be aggressive and to not embarass your opponent when you are beating them. Yao was taught for over 20 years, when you block someone's shot, you don't pound your chest. Yao was also taught to not dunk on competition just because you were much taller than they were. Last season Yao started adjusting to the NBA style of play. I'm sure you saw Yao dunking on guys and yelling or blocking a guy's shot and showing authority in the middle. Get this MaGiC, this is only his *3RD* season guy. Yao was also, like Cat stated above, playing with players that were used to running isolations and taking the ball themself. Even with that his average rose. If you would take bulk over height then that would be very foolish. You can work and gain weight and muscles but you will never get taller. Some of the best players of all time have called Yao the future dominant center. Some have said Yao can be the best center of all time. Moses Malone has said Houston is an elite team and many experts agree. And about your potential statement, what else can we judge him by? His stats have increased each of his 2 years. He has had stretches when playing against Shaquille O'Neal, called the Most Dominant Player of all-time btw, where he has dominated Shaquille and beat him in their much televised battles. Last year Yao waas supposed to be the #1 option but Francis decided he was the number 1 option against the coach's wishes. That is why Francis and Van Gundy had their well publicized spouts against each other. Yao *WAS* the #1 option on the team, it's just that Francis felt he should be the first option so he took shots that Yao should have taken. In conclusion, Yao Ming *IS* indeed the #1 option on the team and Tracy McGrady knows it. Tracy has been the #1 option and it has gotten him nowhere. Check out the press conference videos on rockets.com. Championships as a general rule are won by dominant big men and every sports analyst ever will tell you that. Yao is *definitely* on the level Rockets fan are putting him. We know and have followed Yao throughout his career whereas other teams have only caught glimpses of him. *Yao is a superstar.* Otherwise, would Tracy have chose to come here over Indiana, Phoenix, or everywhere else where there are other big men? Answer: No.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> 
> 
> Whoa, there are a lot of things wrong with this post. First, as a Magic fan I think you realize that while the Magic weren't a good team they shouldn't have been the worse team in the league; that was somewhat of a fluke. Second, I think you are underestimating the impact of a center like Yao Ming. If Yao had been on the Magic last year I'd have to think they would have won twice as many games. A player Yao's size commands double teams and is somebody that the offense can run through. Think about how many easy dunks he's going to get off of T-Mac's penetration. They'll be off of passes that DeClercq usually fumbles out of bounds but with Yao that changes everything. On the defensive end, Yao anchors the defense and makes everybody else look good. Finally, the biggest difference between the two teams is the coach. Jeff Van Gundy is a million times better than Johnny Davis. I think if you switch Van Gundy with JD last year and change nothing else the Magic would have won at least 30 games. Van Gundy and Yao alone make Houston a great defensive team. We all know T-Mac has the tools to be a top defender and with Yao taking a lot of the load off his shoulders on offense he should be able to shut down opposing wings like he did in Toronto. My point is, your comparison is unfair. The Rockets will sign somebody with the MLE, but even if they don't there is no way, barring injury, that the Rockets will miss the playoffs.


I agree with all of that, but really, you're just agreeing with me not "proving me wrong". I was throwing the comparison out there for discussion purposes like I specifically said in my post. I also said I don't think they're going to miss the playoffs, I think the impact of Yao Ming and Jeff Van Gundy, not to mention having T-Mac improving from playing with Ming and under Van Gundy as well as being motivated on both ends of the court will have a huge impact. I agree, Rockets will make the playoffs.


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## The Cat (Jul 14, 2002)

> They even think he'll actually be the #1 offensive option, which is so rediculous it boggles my mind. He wasn't even the best player on that team last year.




He *was* the #1 offensive option last season and he *was* the best player on the team last year. And this is coming from someone who watched them for more than 85 games. Everything went through Yao Ming. He consistently drew double teams _on the touch_ against every team that didn't have Shaquille O'Neal. He could score on the block against anyone. His range could also pull centers away from the basket when needed and open the lane for Francis to penetrate. Francis was a good player, but Yao Ming was the man for the Rockets last season and he's the reason the Rockets got past the playoff hurdle. I highly doubt an Orlando fan who watched a few of our games on national TV is in better position to make that judgment.

Furthermore, soft? If Yao was soft, he would've backed down against Shaquille O'Neal, the most dominant center of all-time. In the regular season, Yao had three of his best games of the season in his four games against the Lakers. In the playoffs, Yao's post defense held Shaq to just 16 points per game in the series - the lowest in one series that Shaq has ever been held to *in his life*. Shaquille O'Neal rips apart "soft as Jello" centers, especially when they are in their second seasons. The stats don't match your theory.

Also, Yao's certainly not Kevin Garnett, but he has adequate athleticism and speed for a center in today's NBA.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>The Cat</b>!
> By *far*. It's not even that close. The Lakers are the only team among that group that has a bonafide star, although I'll give credit to the Mavs and Suns for each having a player on the cusp of that level. The Rockets have *two* players on the star level.


sorry, but i simply don't understand how can you call yao ming a star, yet state that dirk nowitzki is only on the cusp of that level.

i think most people on this board would agree that right now, dirk is the superior player.


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## The Cat (Jul 14, 2002)

Fine; I'll give you that one and say that Dirk's a bonafide star. I don't think he's as good as Yao because he doesn't have the same _presence_ and doesn't draw the same amount of attention on either end of the floor, but the numbers don't lie. He's deserving of that status. That said, if I had to win one basketball game today, there's no question I would take Yao on my team before I would take Dirk.


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## snowmt (Jan 28, 2003)

I can't believe how hypocrite some people call Yao soft. How can 
a soft center stand against Shaq? Shaq has trashed many great 
players but does have respect for Yao because Yao plays him 
straight. No flop or dirty trick. I bet you guys would 
piss your pants to face a monster like Shaq.

Van Gundy said it perfectly after the Tmac trade. Many people 
mistaken bravo as toughness.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> Potential aside, he is not on the level Rockets fans are putting him on. They even think he'll actually be the #1 offensive option, which is so rediculous it boggles my mind. He wasn't even the best player on that team _last year_.


He is the #1 offensive option on the team, and he is their best player. He led the Rockets in Points, Rebounds, Blocks and FG%. Not to mention everything he did without the ball in his hands. The only argument you can make about Yao not being the best player on the team last year was that he rarely got the ball on the last posession of the game. How many centers, going back to Chamberlain, DO get the ball in the last posession of the game? Hakeem was the only center who could produce those clutch shots every time. We had Steve Francis throwing up airballs or making horrible passes on those plays. You are greatly misinformed about Yao Ming.


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## J Blaze (Jun 21, 2004)

lol, I think we responded to everything he said politely and countered everyone of his points. Shall I say, thread shut down! jkin :laugh:


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

> In conclusion, Yao Ming IS indeed the #1 option on the team and Tracy McGrady knows it.


You are in for the shock of your life. It completely leaves me dumbfounded how anyone could possibly think Tracy McGrady will be Yao Ming's sidekick. *Yao is not good enough to have a top 5 player as his sidekick*. ESPECIALLY when that top 5 player just won the scoring title 2 years in a row. Yao and Shaq are two very different people. You're actually calling Yao the better player? In T-Mac's specialty no less, offense? He will get the ball when T-Mac says he will. Not the other way around. Bet you'll be whining about that in no time, but anyone with common sense would already know that's the way it'll be. 



> Furthermore, soft? If Yao was soft, he would've backed down against Shaquille O'Neal, the most dominant center of all-time. In the regular season, Yao had three of his best games of the season in his four games against the Lakers. In the playoffs, Yao's post defense held Shaq to just 16 points per game in the series - the lowest in one series that Shaq has ever been held to in his life. Shaquille O'Neal rips apart "soft as Jello" centers, especially when they are in their second seasons. The stats don't match your theory.


Stats? I saw him get dominated by Drew freakin' Gooden, who is soft even for a *PF*. I don't care what he did against Shaq, because I didn't watch it, but I've seen him get pushed around consistently by the Magic's old, horrid frontcourt. So I can only assume what happens to him in all his other games. But let me guess, he only plays soft when he plays us, right? :laugh: 



> If you would take bulk over height then that would be very foolish. You can work and gain weight and muscles but you will never get taller.


Let's see, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Jermaine O'neal, Dirk Nowitzki... uhm, yeah, I'm pretty sure height isn't everything. Everyone I just mentioned is better than Yao, and I'd bet most of them are better than Yao will ever be. I repeat, he is not Shaq. He is not Hakeem. He is not Kareem. He sure as hell isn't Wilt. I don't know what you think he'll become just because of his height, but he will never become some dominant, unstoppable force like anyone I just mentioned. Simply being tall won't get him much farther than where he currently is. He doesn't have *that* much potential. You wanna know why he's already considered one of the best centers? It's because there's about 5 in the entire league. That's why. If Duncan or Garnett actually played center, like they should, watching them toy with Yao would be hilarious.


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## snowmt (Jan 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> 
> Stats? I saw him get dominated by Drew freakin' Gooden, who is soft even for a *PF*.


 

1/25/04 Yao 37 pt 10 rbs Gooden 9 pt 2 rbs
11/8/03 Yao 16 pt 11 rbs Gooden 8 pt 4 rbs
4/6/03 Yao 14 pt 8 rbs Gooden 2 pt 4 rbs

So much for the domination.


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## Baron Davis (Apr 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Ming Bling</b>!
> 
> 
> He is the #1 offensive option on the team, and he is their best player. He led the Rockets in Points, Rebounds, Blocks and FG%. Not to mention everything he did without the ball in his hands. The only argument you can make about Yao not being the best player on the team last year was that he rarely got the ball on the last posession of the game. How many centers, going back to Chamberlain, DO get the ball in the last posession of the game? Hakeem was the only center who could produce those clutch shots every time. We had Steve Francis throwing up airballs or making horrible passes on those plays. You are greatly misinformed about Yao Ming.


Haha, I agree, I see Francis on ESPN or TNT trying to be Mr. Hero, throwing up airballs or bricks.


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## The Cat (Jul 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>snowmt</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll quote this instead of responding - I couldn't say it any better. It is pretty ironic, though, that Yao not only wasn't dominated, but actually had arguably the best performance of his entire career in his last game vs. Gooden! 

Want to try again?


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> If Duncan or Garnett actually played center, like they should, watching them toy with Yao would be hilarious.


In the January 17 game against Houston, Yao Ming was embarassing Ervin Johnson so Saunders put Garnett on Yao. That didn't slow him down at all. Garnett has guarded Yao many times, and wasn't able to stop him, or do anything that Ervin Johnson couldn't. Yao had 22 pts and 15 rebounds in that game. In their next matchup, Yao put up 27 against Olowakandi and Garnett.


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## J Blaze (Jun 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> 
> 
> You are in for the shock of your life. It completely leaves me dumbfounded how anyone could possibly think Tracy McGrady will be Yao Ming's sidekick. *Yao is not good enough to have a top 5 player as his sidekick*. ESPECIALLY when that top 5 player just won the scoring title 2 years in a row. Yao and Shaq are two very different people. You're actually calling Yao the better player? In T-Mac's specialty no less, offense? He will get the ball when T-Mac says he will. Not the other way around. Bet you'll be whining about that in no time, but anyone with common sense would already know that's the way it'll be.


Tmac *HIMSELF* said in an interview on ESPN that he came to Houston because he wanted to play with a big man that could become the next dominant player in basketball. He also said he is here to help Yao get there and win championships in the process. Here's a quote: 



> When McGrady talks of the next level, he isn't referring to anymore scoring titles or all-star appearances or even any All-NBA first-team awards. He's done all those, even though at age 25, he is just entering his physical prime.
> 
> He is talking about a championship, which he believes he will win in Houston playing *alongside* center Yao Ming.


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/spor...g09,1,4341626.story?coll=orl-sports-headlines

Enough said here. The biggest problem with Francis last year is he wanted to be the man while Jeff Van Gundy told him Yao was the go to guy. Tracy has made it clear that he will follow JVG's order's and JVG has been adamant that Tracy will work out just fine here in Houston. Check the "Welcome to Houston" press conference on Rockets.com for more proof.



> Stats? I saw him get dominated by Drew freakin' Gooden, who is soft even for a *PF*. I don't care what he did against Shaq, because I didn't watch it, but I've seen him get pushed around consistently by the Magic's old, horrid frontcourt. So I can only assume what happens to him in all his other games. But let me guess, he only plays soft when he plays us, right? :laugh:





> 1/25/04 Yao 37 pt 10 rbs Gooden 9 pt 2 rbs
> 11/8/03 Yao 16 pt 11 rbs Gooden 8 pt 4 rbs
> 4/6/03 Yao 14 pt 8 rbs Gooden 2 pt 4 rbs
> 
> So much for the domination.





> Let's see, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Jermaine O'neal, Dirk Nowitzki... uhm, yeah, I'm pretty sure height isn't everything. Everyone I just mentioned is better than Yao, and I'd bet most of them are better than Yao will ever be. I repeat, he is not Shaq. He is not Hakeem. He is not Kareem. He sure as hell isn't Wilt. I don't know what you think he'll become just because of his height, but he will never become some dominant, unstoppable force like anyone I just mentioned. Simply being tall won't get him much farther than where he currently is. He doesn't have *that* much potential. You wanna know why he's already considered one of the best centers? It's because there's about 5 in the entire league. That's why. If Duncan or Garnett actually played center, like they should, watching them toy with Yao would be hilarious.


Jermaine O'Neal: 8 years in the league
Kevin Garnett : 8 years in the league
Tim Duncan: 7 years in the league
Dirk Nowitzki: 6 years in the league
Yao Ming: 2 years in the league

After all that about so many people better than Yao you came up with a grand total of 4 people. Wow. He isn't Shaq right now. He isn't Hakeem right now. He isn't Kareem right now. He won't be Wilt ever because no person will. But Yao has the opportunity and has the tools to be better than all of the above. Remember this is only Yao's *3RD* year. Yao will be a superstar and if you can't see that then :whoknows:, I can't make you. Anyway next, what else can you throw at me. :laugh:


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

> But Yao has the opportunity and has the tools to be better than all of the above.


Now you're really trying to embarass yourself.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>snowmt</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not that it's really relevant, but Yao got outplayed by Steven Hunter on 11/8/03, the guy that actually played center, not Gooden. 

11/8/03:
Steven Hunter- 15 Points(7-9 FG) 9 Rebounds, 2 Blocks
Yao Ming- 16 Points*(6-18 FG)* 11 Rebounds, 1 Block

Hunter was frustrating Yao all game long, he was never able to get anything started. Yao scored 16 points, sure, but he attempted 18 shots just to get those 16 points. Yao was so frustrated he even picked up a tech in the 4th quarter.


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

Tmac+ any top 10 player in the league especially a top 5 center in the league will take any team to the playoffs..mark my words.. post it in your signiture... send me a postcard.


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## The Cat (Jul 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> 
> 
> Now you're really trying to embarass yourself.


Instead of responding with a random one sentence insult and ignoring his entire post, why don't you try to refute his points? You still haven't posted one legitimate complaint about Yao Ming in this entire thread. What can't he do? Does he not have the footwork? Does he not have the post moves? Does he not have the strength? What does he supposedly not have according to you that limits his potential and won't allow him to be great?

And don't come back with this dominated by Drew Gooden stuff... that's alright been discussed and proven wrong when he dropped 37 points on your team.

That might be a nice comeback if you had any way to support it... it's obvious you don't, though.


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## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

Yao Ming was the clear number one option last year just like T-Mac is the clear number one this year. T-Mac would be the number one option on any team; he is the best offensive player in the league. It doesn't matter that Yao is a big man, T-Mac should be the one scoring the most points on the Rockets.


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ming Bling</b>!
> 
> 
> He is the #1 offensive option on the team, and he is their best player. He led the Rockets in Points, Rebounds, Blocks and FG%. Not to mention everything he did without the ball in his hands. The only argument you can make about Yao not being the best player on the team last year was that he rarely got the ball on the last posession of the game. How many centers, going back to Chamberlain, DO get the ball in the last posession of the game? Hakeem was the only center who could produce those clutch shots every time. We had Steve Francis throwing up airballs or making horrible passes on those plays. You are greatly misinformed about Yao Ming.


dude you are so mis informed about steve. You were one of those rocket fans who just became a fan because yao got on the team. If you remember some of those airballs were clutch shots in that denver nuggets game that made us a lock in the playoffs and some of those other supposed "airballs" helped the rockets have a good match-up with the lakers in the playoffs. Where was yao during the playoffs??


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> Tmac+ any top 10 player in the league especially a top 5 center in the league will take any team to the playoffs..mark my words.. post it in your signiture... send me a postcard.


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## snowmt (Jan 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> Yao Ming was the clear number one option last year just like T-Mac is the clear number one this year.


Actually Francis was the No. 1 option, one of the major reasons that he was traded.

FG attempt: Francis 14.5 Mobley 13.5 Yao 12.5
Scoring: Yao 17.5 Francis 16.5 Mobley 15.5


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## snowmt (Jan 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>farhan007</b>!
> 
> 
> dude you are so mis informed about steve. You were one of those rocket fans who just became a fan because yao got on the team. If you remember some of those airballs were clutch shots in that denver nuggets game that made us a lock in the playoffs and some of those other supposed "airballs" helped the rockets have a good match-up with the lakers in the playoffs. Where was yao during the playoffs??


he's not wrong. Francis missed so many clutch shots he usually made last year, by far his worst season.


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## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>snowmt</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually Francis was the No. 1 option, one of the major reasons that he was traded.
> ...


Those stats are wrong. Yao was the number one option, that's why he scored the most. BTW, Francis was traded because they were getting T-Mac in return.


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## snowmt (Jan 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> 
> 
> Those stats are wrong. Yao was the number one option, that's why he scored the most. BTW, Francis was traded because they were getting T-Mac in return.


He scored most because of shooting 52% vs Francis' 40.3%


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>farhan007</b>!
> dude you are so mis informed about steve. You were one of those rocket fans who just became a fan because yao got on the team.


I've been a Rockets fan for just under 2 decades now.



> If you remember some of those airballs were clutch shots in that denver nuggets game that made us a lock in the playoffs and some of those other supposed "airballs" helped the rockets have a good match-up with the lakers in the playoffs.


There were far more instances where he tried to create for himself during the final play and ended up losing the ball or airballing it. The only time he did what he was supposed to was during game 1 of the Lakers-Rockets playoff series, when he penetrated and kicked it out to JJ.



> Where was yao during the playoffs??


Like I said before, guards normally get the ball during the last play of the game because it is easier for them to create. There haven't been many great clutch perfomers over 7 ft tall and Yao is still young.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

last year Bryant scored more points and took more shots than Shaq, so I suppose you could argue that Kobe was the first option. but of course, he wasn't. most of the plays went through Shaq, and of course Kobe was the biggest beneficiary.

I think almost everyone expects McGrady to score the most points this year on the Rockets squad. it doesn't make him the first option though, any more than Kobe was the primary option last year. 

the offense will run through Yao, just like it was supposed to last year. the difference is that McGrady is good enough and has the experience and intelligence to actually take advantage of the second best center in the NBA. 

I predict McGrady will score around 26 ppg, on 45% shooting. Yao will score around 19 ppg on 53% shooting. 

but make no mistake, it's Yao's team.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> Let's look over the Rockets' roster this year.
> 
> *STARTING LINEUP*
> ...


does everyone still feel the same about the rockets after they signed sura and ward? the rockets still need a big man but this helps answer a lot of the questions with the rockets backcourt by giving them depth and pushing lue to the bench where he belongs.


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## J Blaze (Jun 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> 
> 
> Now you're really trying to embarass yourself.





> *Instead of responding with a random one sentence insult and ignoring his entire post, why don't you try to refute his points? *You still haven't posted one legitimate complaint about Yao Ming in this entire thread. What can't he do? Does he not have the footwork? Does he not have the post moves? Does he not have the strength? What does he supposedly not have according to you that limits his potential and won't allow him to be great?
> 
> And don't come back with this dominated by Drew Gooden stuff... that's alright been discussed and proven wrong when he dropped 37 points on your team.
> 
> That might be a nice comeback if you had any way to support it... it's obvious you don't, though.


Here's something from one of your fellow Magic fan's....



> Tmac+ any top 10 player in the league especially a top 5 center in the league will take any team to the playoffs..mark my words.. post it in your signiture... send me a postcard.


I will send you a postcard my friend....:laugh:


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## J Blaze (Jun 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Captain Obvious</b>!
> 
> 
> Those stats are wrong. Yao was the number one option, that's why he scored the most. BTW, Francis was traded because they were getting T-Mac in return.





> last year Bryant scored more points and took more shots than Shaq, so I suppose you could argue that Kobe was the first option. but of course, he wasn't. most of the plays went through Shaq, and of course Kobe was the biggest beneficiary.
> 
> I think almost everyone expects McGrady to score the most points this year on the Rockets squad. it doesn't make him the first option though, any more than Kobe was the primary option last year.
> 
> ...


And another thing that was wrong. Yes, Francis was traded because we were getting Tracy McGrady in return but another reason, which may be even bigger, was that Francis was not the #1 option because the coach annointed Yao the first option. You remember all the stories in the media about Francis and Jeff Van Gundy not getting along. Their disagreements were largely about Francis not willing to defer to Yao. Remember the infamous, "I'm going to play my way." Francis comment? And you DON'T think that had something to do with Francis leaving?


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## ljt (May 24, 2003)

watch out,new rockets is coming!


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## bob718 (Jul 28, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ljt</b>!
> watch out,new rockets is coming!


watch out,new rockets is coming!


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

bump bump


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

RP McMurphy has been burned by the bump a couple of times before, but I like the fact he puts his balls on the line.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Greg Ostertag! said:


> RP McMurphy has been burned by the bump a couple of times before, but I like the fact he puts his balls on the line.


he made the original post before the rockets signed ward and sura and before they got mutumbo. barry, welsey, and james were all added midseason. so i don't think this looks as terrible for him. though now the rockets are looking at the 5 seed unless they try to drop to a lower seed to avoid dallas.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

Yet it was commonly talked about how the Rockets would try and tinker with their roster as soon as possible. When you have two of the top 15 players in the league and a coach named JVG I don't see how you can end up with the 10th seed. One can even argue that this Rocket team would have had the same record had JVG opened up the offense from day 1 and made no trades during the season. Would we be a better team? No. But we'd have a similar record considering how poor our start was.

I think the biggest flaw in ArtestFan's argument was letting his personal disgust with Juwan Howard underrate him. The starting PF positiong was shaky at the beginning of the season, but once Howard got into a groove Yao had space to work with and started putting up the expected numbers. We won't have him for the playoffs which severely hurts our chances of going far, but with McGrady and Yao playing their best basketball of the season things are looking good for a WC final push. 

But he was one of the first to point out that Nachbar would be a flop, and I give him props for that.


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## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

I love it when people start bumping old threads, I should start looking for more


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Illegitimate bumps are annoying. This was all before Sura, James, Wesley, Barry and Mutombo (who is arguably a 6th man candidate this season) were added. Come on now people.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

rocketeer said:


> he made the original post before the rockets signed ward and sura and before they got mutumbo. barry, welsey, and james were all added midseason. so i don't think this looks as terrible for him. though now the rockets are looking at the 5 seed unless they try to drop to a lower seed to avoid dallas.


Beat me to it.


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## TheRoc5 (Mar 1, 2005)

people in there crazy pridictions, haha they said they wouldnt make the playoffs and now there title contenders hahaha


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

Greg Ostertag! said:


> RP McMurphy has been burned by the bump a couple of times before, but I like the fact he puts his balls on the line.


Thanks. What's the point of coming on here anyway if you're afraid to have a little fun and say what you think. That said, I did a pretty terrible job all around with my predictions this year. Minnesota winning the title? The Rockets in the lottery? Utah in the second round? Not a good job by me at all.


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## J Blaze (Jun 21, 2004)

RP McMurphy said:


> Thanks. What's the point of coming on here anyway if you're afraid to have a little fun and say what you think. That said, I did a pretty terrible job all around with my predictions this year. Minnesota winning the title? The Rockets in the lottery? Utah in the second round? Not a good job by me at all.


True. But when you rip people's team so confidently and turn out to be absolutely wrong, you really deserve all of the "I told you so's." Good you can take it and not be offended because you really brought it on yourself :laugh: I think your only problem wasn't your opinions themselves but how you stated them. Looking at your other predictions...... :whofarted :laugh: The Rockets proved many people wrong this year so don't feel bad  In any event, this post was good for a quick laugh, now back to spanking the hottest teams in the league.... :starwars: 

p.s. I just had to use the Star Wars smilie at least once.....


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## ThaShark316 (May 7, 2004)

RP, think of it like this...You could have been this guy...

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?t=118532

To think, I was just gonna type "AHAHAHHAHAHAHA" and be on my way. :biggrin:


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

It would've been great if Chris Duhon was Houston's starting PG


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

RP McMurphy said:


> Thanks. What's the point of coming on here anyway if you're afraid to have a little fun and say what you think. That said, I did a pretty terrible job all around with my predictions this year. Minnesota winning the title? The Rockets in the lottery? Utah in the second round? Not a good job by me at all.


 I did as well. I also had Minnesota winning the title, Seattle as the 10th or 11th seed in the West, Memphis not making the playoffs(I even made a big thread about it like you did with Houston here) Washington sucking, and Miami only being a few games better than they were last season.


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

hobojoe said:


> I did as well. I also had Minnesota winning the title, Seattle as the 10th or 11th seed in the West, Memphis not making the playoffs(I even made a big thread about it like you did with Houston here) Washington sucking, and Miami only being a few games better than they were last season.


I tried running a search so I could bump you into next century, but it blew up.


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