# Suns snap 8 game losing streak..



## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

Well, they finally won one.. Amare was his usually beastly self, Joe Johnson had a horrible first half but came alive later, getting 16 pts, 4 boards, and 4 assists in the second half, with no turnovers for the game.. Marion played brilliant but reaggrivated the ankle that he tweaked against the Lakers and left early.. the announcers said it was a sprained ankle..

As long as we get off to a good start, we're actually a good team.. Amare has scored 20 or more his last 7 straight games, and 11 of the last 13 games. Joe looked like he was slumping big time but played well tonight against a tough defender in Shandon Anderson.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Amare was amazing again.

You tell me this guy isn't a top 5 PF already? He IS.

Offensively he is just amazing. There is nobody at the 4 that scores as well, nobody.

Amare waiving the figer at Mutombo was funny and his posterization on Mutombo? Just sick.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> Amare was amazing again.
> 
> You tell me this guy isn't a top 5 PF already? He IS.
> ...


He threw down a nasty one on Deke, for sure.. then he turned around and swatted his **** a couple plays later.. good stuff. I still don't think Amare is top 5 PF.. it's just a stacked position.. Aside from Garnett and Duncan, you've got Brand, Webber, Randolph, Martin.. well I guess he's close, but I wouldn't say he's cracked the top 5, at least statistically, yet.. soon though, no doubt. He has been unreal over the last 7 games.. hence the new avatar..


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## PhatDaddy3100 (Jun 16, 2002)

Yeah, ,when Amare dunked on Demeke and then came right back and blocked him and waved at him and mutumbo got mad. It was great.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Webber isn't playing, Randolph has no defense and simply isn't as good, Brand is all about numbers and Martin is a poor version of Amare.

Jermaine O'Neal shoots 43% from the floor.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> Brand is all about numbers


As opposed to Amare... who is leading his team to victory after victory?



> and Martin is a poor version of Amare.


No, Amare is a poor version of KMart. No PF can attack the basket like KMart can, plus check out his numbers under Frank. Not to mention his team is winning.



> Jermaine O'Neal shoots 43% from the floor.


Jermaine shoots .438, Amare shoots .471. Jermaine has taken 1,005 FG attempts this year, and Amare has taken 437. I just think you constantly look at Amare with blinders, all 3 of these players are currently better than him.

On the other hand, Amare did have a huge game today. He has been playing with great consistency lately and totally proved me wrong when I said he can't put up more than 16 ppg. Few questions about his game, does he demand the ball alot? Can he consistently hit a mid range jumper? How many points of his come from fast breaks? And why does a player as athletic as him continue to struggle to get more than 1 block per game?

Thanks.


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## #1SUNFAN (Jul 17, 2002)

Amare will be a top 5 power forward next year. I wouldn't be surprised if he put up 23 and 10 next year with a couple of blocks a game.


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## #1SUNFAN (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> 
> 
> As opposed to Amare... who is leading his team to victory after victory?
> ...


Amare doesn't get alot of points in transition, didn't have any tonight, he's usually the trailer on breaks but the guards just pass to each other most of the time.

He's averaging basically the same amount of blocks as Ming, he doesn't struggle that much at all.

Check out Amare's numbers since the Marbury trade.

Amare has only played 32 games this year because of an ankle injury, that is the major reason he has taken so few shots. That and J. O'Neal has been the number one option on the Pacers while Amare has just recently been given the reigns.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> 
> 
> As opposed to Amare... who is leading his team to victory after victory?
> ...


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Please

The Franchise do you even watch games?

And considering your Brand comment. Amare Stoudemire helped his team to the playoffs as a rookie. Brand never tasted what playoffs feel like.

Why did the Suns break up this year? Because Amare Stoudemire is so important for them, they couldn't win without him.

Amare's Stoudemire post game is GREAT. Scoring-wise there is no better PF in the game already and that includes Duncan and Garnett.
He is scoring with such ease it is amazing. He will simply find ways to get the ball in the basket or to the line and he does that while drawing double teams.

Amare Stoudemire has the 2nd longest streak of 20+ games in the NBA right now. Only Tim Duncan has more.

There is no reason Amare shouldn't average 25+ppg for the rest of this season. Absolutely none , he can't be stopped offensively.

Since when does Amare struggle to get a block a game? Last time I checked Amare had a 10 blocks game already this season more than Yao ever did and is averaging close to 2 blocks per game and averages about 18/8 but should end up at 21/9.

He will be an allstar next season.


Post-allstar game he is averaging ~25ppg 10rpg 1.3apg 1.8bpg 1spg ~47%FG in about 37mpg.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

Excellent game from Amare, if anyone noticed, Suns outrebounded Knicks 27 to 58.

Thats more than double the rebounding. Everyone in our team had 2+ rebounds I think.


Amare top 5 PF?

Not yet, he is definitely gaining grounds and have proven that he has improved from his rookie year. I think Jermaine O'Neal is still significantly a head of Amare. The top 3 PF is pretty much locked, with Duncan, Garnett, Webber.

Nowitski is top 5, with Boozer, Martin, Randolph and Brand arguably top 10. Amare is among that crowd, but Amare has the most upside and still developing and improving rapidly.

Next season, I can see him putting 20 points and 10 rebounds consistently and maybe 2 blocks a game. But Amare is still 3-4 seasons away from being his true ability. Which is scary, the guy has the potential to be top 5 most dominant player in the NBA.


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## azirishmusic (Feb 25, 2004)

Amare puts up some pretty impressive numbers for a guy with as little expereince as he has. He is close to joining the "second tier" of PF's although his man defense is holding him back.

There was a recent article to the effect that Amare will participate in the Suns summer league team in Utah. He wasn't able to do that last season due to his toe surgery so he will get a chance to work on skills. I look for a better all round game from Amare next season, although the only stat that should rise will rebounds.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>azirishmusic</b>!
> Amare puts up some pretty impressive numbers for a guy with as little expereince as he has. He is close to joining the "second tier" of PF's although his man defense is holding him back.
> 
> There was a recent article to the effect that Amare will participate in the Suns summer league team in Utah. He wasn't able to do that last season due to his toe surgery so he will get a chance to work on skills. I look for a better all round game from Amare next season, although the only stat that should rise will rebounds.


I think Amare has a legitimate chance to be a 25ppg scorer very soon. One thing he has in common with all great scorers is that the man knows how to get to the line, and he's becoming a pretty good free throw shooter. If he gets to the line at least 10-12 times a game like he has been, no reason he shouldn't be in the top 10 scoring.. He's also gone away from his little jump hook recently, but I'd like to see him stick with that, it's very hard to guard and not a difficult shot. He does a lot of face up in the post, and that's where he always gets his TO's.. it's still effective, I just would like to see him work on more back-to-the-basket type stuff.

Considering Lonny Baxter, JJ, Maciej and Zarko all averaged more than 22ppg in the summer league in Salt Lake City, Amare should be good for about 40 and 20 :grinning:. If he wants to do it, I'd say go for it, but let it be his decision.. he might be insulted being asked to play against the likes of NBA 12th men and Isaac Austin and Felton Spencer after the season he's having.. maybe not though..


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>#1SUNFAN</b>!
> He's averaging basically the same amount of blocks as Ming, he doesn't struggle that much at all.


My bad. Ming and Amare are pretty much level.



> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> Kenyon is very ferocious, but that's about all he has on Amare. Stoudemire already has a better offensive arsenal. K-Mart's also 26, and spent four years in a vaunted college program.


So what if Amare is more raw right now, still doesn't make him better than KMart. Are you telling me Amare is a better defender than KMart? On the ball Martin is near the Artest-Wallace tier. Amare is a great player, but a top 5 PF? No.



> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> Why did the Suns break up this year? Because Amare Stoudemire is so important for them, they couldn't win without him.


They are just coming off a 8 game losing streak with Amare playing the best basketball of his career. They aren't winning with him either. The Suns weren't producing with Marbury and Colangelo saw an opening to clear cap space with the New York trade. I think his intention was to rebuild with Amare being a key piece to the future, he needed talent alongside his big 2 players and he chose the risky FA approach... he wasn't getting results for the money he was shelling out, a top 5 payroll in the league. It wasn't a difficult choice. Can you see Amare Stoudemire leading a team to the NBA Finals? Maybe with a Kobe Bryant, but not alone with a bunch of role players. 
I doubt the Suns get anyone of superstar value in free agency, and that's why they could be looking at another losing season. How often has the cap clearing experiment worked out for teams?



> Amare's Stoudemire post game is GREAT. Scoring-wise there is no better PF in the game already and that includes Duncan and Garnett.


I haven't seen him play since the Houston game, but I don't see the need to reply to this.



> He will be an allstar next season.


Something I highly doubt, because even if Amare puts up big numbers he hasn't shown the ability to take over games, or play big down the stretch (what do I know I don't watch games). He isn't as popular as sportscenter makes him out to be, post a poll in the NBA forum (Will Amare be voted in as an All Star) and you will get a taste of what I am getting at, even if he puts up 20 and 10. Look at Zach Randolph, who is less flashy but is getting the job done in Portland.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Um the franchise, he will average about 21/9 at the end of this season most likely.

He won't put up 20/10 next season.

Expect more like 25/11/2/2/1. That is allstar and Amare is popular among coaches.

Like I said you have seen Amare play only 1 time, you shouldn't even comment.

And in that game Amare stuffed Yao at least 4 times.


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## PhatDaddy3100 (Jun 16, 2002)

You got a point franchise with the space-clearing teams not panning out. But Did those point clearing teams have a Top 5 sf in the league or one of the best upcoming big men in the league? Didnt think so.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> 
> So what if Amare is more raw right now, still doesn't make him better than KMart. Are you telling me Amare is a better defender than KMart? On the ball Martin is near the Artest-Wallace tier. Amare is a great player, but a top 5 PF? No.
> 
> ...


I didn't say Amare was better than Kenyon, if anything it was the opposite. Kenyon's defense and his presence on the floor is a product of his aggressiveness and ferocity more than anything. He's got it down now, but last year and even sometimes earlier this year he would play with a lack of energy and disappear. Amare isn't close to the one-on-one defender that K-Mart is, but if he had Martin's approach to defensive intensity he would be a good defender.

The Magic were a last-minute decision away from signing both McGrady and Duncan, and if Hill had stayed healthy who knows where they would have gone. Did you look at Denver? Part of the reason they're a good team is because on top of doing well in the draft, they solidified their team through free agency. The main reason with the cap clearing experiment hasn't yielded tremendous results up to this point is that it's only been done a few times. Even the Jazz were a better offer to Brad Miller and the Clippers being their normal stingy selves away from a starting lineup of Arroyo, Maggette, Harpring, Kirilenko, and Brad Miller.. and nobody is exactly jumping out of their shoes to go play in Salt Lake City..

As for the Suns not winning with Amare, that's folly.. if they had some strong veteran leadership instead of Howard Eisley running the point for entire fourth quarters, the Suns would have converted those countless 3 point losses into wins. As it is, the Suns are 6-21 without Amare (much of that with Stephon still on the team), and 13-19 with him.. a vastly different team when Amare is playing. The 8 game losing streak was characterized by more often than not non-existent (or worse) point guard play, the inconsistencies of Marion, and Johnson's mini-slump..

Only time will tell on the free agency situation.


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## azirishmusic (Feb 25, 2004)

This year's Denver Nuggets team is the poster child for cap clearing. It took a few years to get rid of some bad contracts like Nick Van Exel and Raef LaFrentz. But they could very well see a 30 game turnaround from last season following their cap dump operations.

The tricky part in duplicating Denver's trick is that they would not have made the same progress if the Pistons had drafted Anthony like Larry Brown wanted. Also, it was hardly a sure thing that Camby would remain mostly healthy this year after living on IR for the previous two years.

In any case, the Nuggets started with Nene, Camby and Rodney White, got Carmelo through the draft and added PG Andre Miller, SG Voshon Lenard, and PG Earl Boykins through free agency. (The also signed Jon Barry, but he has been injured and has not really contributed much).

The Nuggets continue to have a lot of cap space to re-sign players and go after other free agents. It has been an impressive run, but some of it was due to Camby coming back and Rodney White having a good year (after sever not so good years).

It is not clear that a total house cleaning like the Hawks did will work. I certainly didn't for the Bulls.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>azirishmusic</b>!
> This year's Denver Nuggets team is the poster child for cap clearing. It took a few years to get rid of some bad contracts like Nick Van Exel and Raef LaFrentz. But they could very well see a 30 game turnaround from last season following their cap dump operations.
> 
> The tricky part in duplicating Denver's trick is that they would not have made the same progress if the Pistons had drafted Anthony like Larry Brown wanted. Also, it was hardly a sure thing that Camby would remain mostly healthy this year after living on IR for the previous two years.
> ...


Good post.. If we don't get Kobe, I would hope the cap space is used to go after a defensive minded center like Camby or Dampier, both of whom have player options after this season.. Camby seems content in Denver, but Dampier has voiced his distress playing in Golden State.. I don't think he'd be as nice a fit as Camby, but he's a monster on the offensive boards and plays nice D, on top of having real center size.. Milos coming over wouldn't hurt either..

Bottom line is that even if Kobe doesn't come to Phoenix, it's not like the team is doomed. We've got a good future with or without Kobe (just a lot better with him ).


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## azirishmusic (Feb 25, 2004)

I am guessing that Dampier will be considered the best prospective FA center this summer, depending on what positon Sheed Wallace plays.

The case for Dampier is that he is big, strong, plays defense, blocks shots and is a very good rebounder. The downside is that he has been injured for most of his career and has been accused of being lazy and out of shape in previous years.

Camby has been injured much of his career as well, but he is a lot smaller than Dampier. Camby is probably better suited to play PF, but he is a great shot blocker and rebounder. His weakness is in dealing with strong centers in the paint.

The Pistons went to great lengths to clear enough cap space to re-sign Okur. He is only in his third year and they are hoping he will continue to improve. His recent bout of pouting due to Sheed Wallace getting the extra minutes may sour the Pistons on him, but unless the Pistons use their money on Sheed Okur is probably not available.

No one ever mentions that Greg Ostertag will be a free agent this summer. He is overpaid at $8.7 million, but will probably stay with the Jazz (probably for less money) because Utah is unlikely to be able to get anyone better and few GM's will be beating down his door unless he is willing to play for mid cap.

Divac is making $12 million this season. He will get less next season. At the age of 36 he is not looking to play a lot of minutes. Several people have suggested he might come to the Suns for one or two years until Lampe is ready to play to tutor him on how to be sneaky.

Further down the food chain,

Stromile Swift will be a restricted free agent. At 6'9" 230 he is more of a PF, but he has played some center. While a good rebounder and shot blocker, his minutes per game have been going down for the past three seasons.

Adonal Foyle is a career backup with the Warriors who has been injured much of this year. He has played in only18 games for an average of 6 minutes a game. His status with the Warriors will be enhanced if Dampier is moved.

Chris Mihm of Boston will be a restricted free agent with a qualifying price of $3.9 million. It is widely believed the Celtics will not offer the qualifying amount inspite of credible numbers for a backup player.

Rebraca was injured most of the season with Detroit and is only averaging 19 minutes a game with Atlanta.

Keon Clark is expected to come off the IR around March 8th. He has played only two games this season. He was considered a competant backup when with Sacrament and prevsiously Toronto. He had some drug possesion issues and is not considered a good guy in the lockerroom.

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There are some players who could be availabe in a trade that used part of the cap space. Dale Davis of Portland will have one more year on his contract for $9 million. Theo Ratliff of Portland has one more year on his contract at $11 million. Portland enters next season with a salary structure of $69.4 million so they may be willing to make a deal.

Houston is rumored to be shopping Kevin Cato, with a salary of $8 million next season and $8.6 million the following year.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

Actually not a horrible crop of FA centers to choose from, all things considered.. The Pistons have cleared enough cap that they'll be able to resign Okur.. he is like Arenas was last year, a second round pick that is restricted but only of the team has enough money to match the offer w/o going over the cap.. 

I can't really see Divac going anywhere other than Sacramento, Europe, or retirement but if he does go anywhere else it would likely be here because a) there's not a lot of pressure, they just need him to be an anchor in the paint and pass, we have a capable backup that can play ~20mpg, b) Zarko and Milos.. he owns the team that Milos is playing for right now and has said that Milos will be one of the best point guards in the NBA..

Toasterhag is notorious for playing for contracts, if we gave him a 3-4 year contract I think it would be a mistake.. He's lazy and wouldn't be a big enough upgrade over Voskuhl to merit a healthy sized contract, in my opinion..

Swift and Amare together in the frontcourt would be vicious, but I think it would be hard to entice Swift to come here, play out of position, and be the fourth option, but who knows.. my gut feeling is Utah is going to push for this guy and get him..

Foyle, Mihm, Davis, Cato, Rebraca.. I'll pass on all those guys unless worst comes to absolute worst. Not worth the risks, to me. Rebraca is Voskuhl part two in my eyes, with a bit more versatile offensive game. Go read the Portland boards and see how they feel about Ratliff.. don't think we have a legit shot at him, and our cap space could be put to much better use.

So, that essentially narrows it down to Damp, Camby, and Vlade.. well, I hope JJ and Shawn's recruitment attempts toward Camby during the game in Denver worked.. The Nuggets owe us one anyways..


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

After thinking about it , Tmac should only be the backup plan.

I wouldn't want Kobe and Amare to have to share with TMac especially at the questionable price that at least Orlando fans are demanding.

Just get rid off White possibly using the Cavs pick.

Trade down in the draft getting rid off Eisley and Jacobsen. For example down to #4-7

We will have ~27.5M$ available.


Kobe 14M$ ~6yrs/100+M$
Dampier 5M$ ~6yrs/40M$ or something like that
Vujanic 1M$ ~3yrs/4M$
Swift 5M$ ~6yrs/40M$
Draftpick 1.5-2.5M$


Dampier/Voshkul/Lampe
Amare/Swift
Marion/Cabarkapa
Kobe/(G/F)
Johnson/Barbosa/Vujanic


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## RyGuY43084 (Jul 15, 2002)

*Please NO*

if we sign ostertag, I am jumping off of Sqawpeak, just so I won't have to endure the ABSOLUTE torture of watching the Biggest White Stiff in the NBA...

I have good friends that are Jazz fans, and they all say the Ostertag is good for 1 MAYBE 2 good games a year, other than that he is an 8.7 million dollor WASTE OF SPACE!!

Please PLEASE, don't sign Greg!


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> After thinking about it , Tmac should only be the backup plan.
> 
> I wouldn't want Kobe and Amare to have to share with TMac especially at the questionable price that at least Orlando fans are demanding.
> ...


If we get rid of White using the Cleveland pick, how do you see us getting rid of Eisley without using a draft pick? He's obscenely overpaid for a looong time.. He's signed until 2007, and in the 2006-07 season he'll be making _7.43 million_.. Eisley is virtually unmovable unless we give up our top pick.

I still don't think Swift would sign if he knew he was going to be delegated to a back up role.. he seems like a guy who wants to get out and show what he can do. If we could somehow get both Kobe and Dampier though, wow.. that would be unreal. Don't see it happening though unless we unload Eisley, which is going to be very, very tough.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

2 in a row now.. Amare 24 pts on 9-12 shooting, but only rebound in the second half.. he also had 6 TO's (3 offensive fouls). Good road win though.. JJ had some killer defense on Jesus tonight, and when Allen got past him the interior defense stepped in to help..


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

good game against sonics.

If Amare can learn not to commit rushed fouls, he would be even more dangerous. Rebounding was a bit low, but Marion got 11 rebounds, so Amare was probably more focused on being the offensive go to guy....


And I was actually very sympathetic towards Antonio McDyess tonight, the guy is seriously unfortunate to be injured, It was painful to see him struggle to go up, he couldnt even jump 15 inches. The guy was like playing 10% of his atheletic ability. Hopefully he continues playing, he gains his confidence and recovers to atleast 75% of his old self.... suns may want to sign him if he holds on enough.


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## PhatDaddy3100 (Jun 16, 2002)

yeah, for a very small price. And amare is playing really well right now on the offensive side of the ball, ,his defense is still s omething that could be worked on......


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## azirishmusic (Feb 25, 2004)

I am really reluctant to dump White. He is one of the few players that can disrupt Shaq and Yao. Also, his ability to block out means that Amare's rebounding figures seem to go up when White is playing unless White grabs 13 boards on his own like he did against Memphis.

The only FA centers that are better than White are Dampier, Camby, Divac, and possibly (but not necessarily) Okur. All are likely to be more expensive than White. Plus White is on the last year of his contract and would have great trade value next February.

Getting rid of White to have the space to get Kobe will leave a hole. If the Suns do not get Kobe with the space, they would be forced to sign one of the FA centers even if the guy is very overpriced.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

considering white gets paid 5+ million... its just not worth it.


if he was getting paid 2-3 million.... it would be fair


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## PhatDaddy3100 (Jun 16, 2002)

I like white, if we can just dump Eisley somehow, to get kobe i would like that. I really like Jahadi. Did a great job against Shaq


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## azirishmusic (Feb 25, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>1 Penny</b>!
> considering white gets paid 5+ million... its just not worth it.
> 
> if he was getting paid 2-3 million.... it would be fair


I'm guessing white would command about $3 to $3.5 million if he was a free agent this summer. My guess is that if he does stay, the Suns would sign him for about that amount in 2005.

The problem with Eisley is that he would not get more than $1 million if he was a free agent this summer or about the amount Kenny Anderson is getting.


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