# New York vs Orlando



## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

Win.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Orlando with its worst first-half of the year and giving up 71 pts by half-time. Not gonna win many of those.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

i think marbury takes games personally when he plays another elite point guard. usually against the likes of brevin knight and other scrubby guards he just passes around. tonight he took it personally.

tim thomas had a huge three in the end. he had 15 4 and 5. 

who needs crawford?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

The Knicks need a bridled JC..and they really need TT


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Allan Houston
15 points, 6-9 FG, 2-3 3pt

Some one really needs to tell Houston that he 15 points is supposed to come on 15 shots. How can we go on without Crawford?

Nevermind, it seems that Tim Thomas filled the 15 points in 15 shots role tonight.

Houston
10.6 ppg
2.0 apg
21.6 mpg

On the year Houston is shooting
40-84 FG
12-25 3pt
14-16 FT

In 10 games, he has taken as many shots as Crawford puts up in 5 games.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Was I the only one nervous we'd blow it in the 4th? Be honest.

But a good win on the road against a team with a winning record. I'll take it.

TT turning clutch again. Aside from his hideous early season slump, that's the one thing that's separated him from KVH, good late in games.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> TT turning clutch again. Aside from his hideous early season slump, that's the one thing that's separated him from KVH, good late in games


The other big difference is that TT has to get thrown to the floor and almost decapitated to be a no show in the playoffs..

KVH needs no assistance..he turns into the invisible man the moment the regular season ends


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> KVH needs no assistance..he turns into the invisible man the moment the regular season ends


Let me know when Thomas gets guarded by someone other than Cliff Robinson or Ben Wallace. He's played well in every playoff series that didn't happen. Oh, except that one against the Bulls and Dennis Rodman. Considering more of his shots taken in the playoffs are jumpers, 40% is what should be expected, no?

It's pretty well known that KVH was the kickout shooter in the Jersey Finals run.

Van Horn
Regular season: 13.4 fga, 3.6 3pa, 30.4 mpg
Playoffs: 12.0 fga, 4.2 3pa, 32.1 mpg

Martin
Regular season: 13.1 fga, 34.3 mpg
Playoffs: 15.2 fga, 37.4 mpg

Kidd
Regular season: 13.8 fga, 3.9 3pa, 37.3 mpg
Playoffs: 17.7 fga, 4.5 3pa, 40.1 mpg

None of these players shot the ball particularly well in the playoffs. Kidd was .415. Martin was .423. KVH was .400 on mostly jumpers, .440 on 3's. Kidd on the other hand was .189 on threes, or 17-90.

You're right. Without Keith Van Horn's playoff production holding them back, the Nets would be NBA champions.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Thanks for showing that KVH's attempts went down in the post-season while Martin's and Kidd's went up. That's just what truth was saying.

And while I wouldn't say that VH held them back they also didn't miss him. The next year they also went to the finals but instead of going 11-9 in the post-season they went 14-6. 

Hardly the key ingredient you'd like to make him out to be.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Nevermind, it seems that Tim Thomas filled the 15 points in 15 shots role tonight.


shut up he had 20 points on 11 shots yesterday.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> You're right. Without Keith Van Horn's playoff production holding them back, the Nets would be NBA champions



Now Now Rashidi,lets not put words in my mouth..But you can quote me on this..

Mr Van Horn,alias the Invisible man,SUKKS come playoff time

A carreer .444 shooter with a 17.5 scoring average,suddenly shoots .393 and scores 11.7 per game in the playoffs...

Interestingly enough,TT's scoring and shooting percentage goes up while the ScareCrows goes down...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....Funny how you negelected to mention that


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

I don't get it though. The only thing Thomas can do is shoot, yet he is clutch in the playoffs. Considering most of his minutes in the playoffs come at PF, what about his 4.6 rpg? Van Horn was averaging more rpg than Martin. Thomas would get outrebounded by his SF. Which was Glenn Robinson or Desmond Mason, mind you. Thomas = Danny Ferry.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I assume you mean all he can do is score (not shoot), because TT seems to have a more diverse offensive game.

And in the playoffs even the rebounding differencial diminishes. 6.4 vs 4.6. Again TT's goes up while KVH's goes down come post season.

It's a simple thing really. Whatever TT and KVH give you in the regular season, come the post season you can expect TT to crank it up and VH to crank it down. One gives hope and optimism, the other not.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

I'll pick a team. How about the Lakers? Numbers are for career of course.

Kobe Bryant
Season: .454
Playoffs: .434

Shaq
Season: .577
Playoffs: .566

Karl Malone
Season: .516
Playoffs: .463

Payton
Season: .469
Playoffs: .443

Fisher
Season: .397
Playoffs: .416

Medvedenko
Season: .444
Playoffs: 477

George
Season: .392
Playoffs: .412

Russell
Season: .434
Playoffs: .441

Fox
Season: .450
Playoffs: .444

Horace Grant
Season: .509
Playoffs: .531

Michael Jordan
Season: .497
Playoffs: .487

LiEk OmGz YoU dOnT kNo WuT uR tAlKiN aBoUt

I mean, there's gotta be a reason why stars shoot lower percentages in the playoffs, and why role players shoot a higher one. Wait... you don't think it's got to do with... stars drawing the attention? You honestly want me to believe that Ray Allen, Glenn Robinson, and Sam Cassell made shots easier for Tim Thomas? That's such a ludicrous idea I won't even entertain it.

Yeah. Horace Grant just came alive come playoff time. He was the real deal, forget that clutchless SOB Jordan.

Keith Van Horn doesn't show up in the playoffs? Let's talk about Stephon Marbury.

Marbury
Season: 20.4 ppg, 8.3 apg, *.431 fg%*, .781 ft%, .315 3pt%
Playoffs: 19.4 ppg, 6.7 apg, *.365 fg%*, .725 ft%, .276 3pt%

Marbury makes Keith Van Horn look like Big Shot Rob. In four playoff series, Marbury has shot 40% (Van Horn's playoff average) once (he shot exactly .400 in his rookie year, and then .306 the following year, no wonder this guy wanted out of KG's shadow and why the Wolves were so willing to trade him for Terrell Brandon).

So you've really got two choices here. You can live by my sword, or die by your own.

But while we're at it.

Ewing
Season: .504
Playoffs: .469

No wonder the media hated this guy.

Starks
Season: .412 (.340 3pt)
Playoffs: .421 (371 3pt)

That's including his 2-18 (0-10 3pt) game.

Houston
Season: .445
Playoffs: .448

Sprewell
Season: .426
Playoffs: .418

Ward
Season: .411
Playoffs: .422

Paul Pierce
Season: .432
Playoffs: 393

Ron Artest
Season: .412
Playoffs: .385

Allen Iverson
Season: .417
Playoffs: .396

Jamal Mashburn
Season: .418
Playoffs: .389

Now Mashburn was a choke artist. He's the main reason why Miami couldn't get past the Knicks.

Nowitzki
Season: .465
Playoffs: .455

Webber
Season: .491
Playoffs: .462

Bibby
Season: .451
Playoffs: .434

Isn't Bibby supposed to be clutch? Clearly he is not if Tim Thomas shoots a higher percentage in the playoffs.

Duncan
Season: .509
Playoffs: .507

Garnett
Season: .488
Playoffs: .458

Charles Barkley
Season: .541
Playoffs: 513

Hakeem Olajuwon
Season: .512
Playoffs: .528

Finally! I found one! Olajuwon shot better in the playoffs than the regular season. But Tim Thomas' improvement is much more significant, therefore Tim Thomas is clearly more clutch than Hakeem. If only we had Tim Thomas in 93-94, things would have been so different. He could have started in place of that choke artist Charles Smith. Speaking of Smith...

Charles Smith
Season: .475
Playoffs: .481

You can call me poetry in motion from now on.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> One gives hope and optimism, the other not.


Van Horn had a sprained shooting wrist in last year's playoffs.

And seeing as how Van Horn was the only legit 3pt shooter on the Nets... are you saying the Nets would have made the Finals without Van Horn?

If the Nets had Van Horn in 02-03, let's just say that that zone that San Antonio killed Jersey with probably doesn't work as well.



> And in the playoffs even the rebounding differencial diminishes. 6.4 vs 4.6. Again TT's goes up while KVH's goes down come post season.


No duh KVH's went down. That's what happens when you're the designated jump shooter, you don't grab as many offensive boards because you're far away from the basket. Thomas was playing on a team that had Robinson/Cassell/Allen. It's safe to say he was NOT designated jump shooter.

Additionally, the Conference Finals run (the majority of his playoff games) happened to be Thomas' best regular season as a pro. it also happened to be his contract year. We all know what happened after he got that contract.

Is Tim Thomas clutch, or does he just coast through the regular season?

Everytime Van Horn has a bad series, it's because he happens to be guarded by a tough defensive PF that can chase him on the perimeter

vs Bulls 97: Dennis Rodman
vs Pacers 02: Van Horn sends game 5 into overtime
vs Hornets 02: Van Horn destroys Hornets in series nobody remembers because it was the last days for the team in Charlotte.
vs Celtics 02: Van Horn buries Celtics with daggers
vs Lakers 02: Robert Horry
vs Hornets 03: Van Horn puts up 18/18 in clincher, solid shooting in every game after game 1 (1-8).
vs Pistons 03: Cliff Robinson (who happened to shut down Pat Garrity in similar fashion the series before)
vs Pistons 04: Wallace x 2, Tayshaun Prince, and sprained shooting wrist.

Let me know when Tim Thomas faces a defender on par with anyone mentioned above. Aside from Kenyon Martin, who completely shut him down in game 5 and 6 of Nets/Bucks 03 when the series was tied 2-2. I notice that Van Horn does more at the end of a series, while Tim Thomas does more at the beginning.


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## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

Can you say "off track"?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Nice stats,but of all those guys you mentioned,how many of them have their regular season PPG go down by 35% come playoff time??


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

none of those stats significantly went down except our very own Marbury. and guess how many playoff series hes won? 0. and he hasnt been in many playoff series anyway.

tim and van horn have a pretty big sample size, and both were role players. Tim and keith both are in the top 5 in all time 3pt fg % though, but van horn gets owned anywhere inside the 3 point line. mainly cause Tims post game is superior to keiths. Remember when guys five inches shorter then keith would block him like it was nothing?


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> I mean, there's gotta be a reason why stars shoot lower percentages in the playoffs, and why role players shoot a higher one. Wait... you don't think it's got to do with... stars drawing the attention? You honestly want me to believe that Ray Allen, Glenn Robinson, and Sam Cassell made shots easier for Tim Thomas? That's such a ludicrous idea I won't even entertain it.





> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> You can call me poetry in motion from now on.


Hey Poetry In Motion, I think you even confuse yourself with your blizzard of statistics.

If I can cut my way through I think what you are saying is that in the post season we should expect "star's" stats to go down and "role player's" to go up, and, if I can believe my ears... Keith is a star.

Thus Keith's numbers should go down along with any other star's on his teams while the role player's will go up.

But why crisscross around the globe for stats to support this argument when we can just look at a more relevant sample: Keith's teams?

Here are Van Horn's post-seasons currently published by bballreference.

Reg season/post season
PPG
FG%

1997-98:

Van Horn:
19.7/12.7
.426/.448

Kittles:
17.2/16.3
.440/.425

Gill:
13.4/14.3
.429/.450

J. Williams:
12.9/7.0
.498/.429

Was Jason WIlliias playing hurt? Anyway, we see Kittles and Gill keep pace, not VH. Kittles was just as much a "star" of that team and the "designated jump shooter" yet he kept pace.

2001-02

Van Horn:
14.8/13.3
.433/.402

Kmart:
14.9/16.8
.463/.424

RJ:
9.4/7.0
.457/.465

Kidd:
14.7/19.6
.391/.415

Funny how Kidd and Kmart, the stars, have rising stats like we're supposed to expect from the role player. But a third tier role player like VH sees his stats go down. How can that be, Poetry in Motion?

2002-03

In Philly, which you seem to refer to as his finest hour...

Van Horn:
15.9/10.4
.482/.448

Iverson:
27.6/31.7
.414/.416

Kenny Thomas:
10.2/10.6
.482/.535

Mckie:
9.0/7.8
.429/.535

How come the others, role players AND stars could hold their own, but not VH? How does that fit your formula, Poetry?

I see why you chose the Lakers as your example. It must have taken you quite some time to find a team to fit your theory about VH, too bad none of HIS teams fit it.

Good work, Poetry in Motion.

Quick recap on VH:
career reg season: 17.7/.442
career post season: 12.3/ .400

But we have to remember, by your theory those stats would be far superior if he wasn't such a big time star.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

I do have a half-finished reply, but due to computer meltdown it is saved to word and will have to wait.


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