# Merged: Channel Kobe - All Kobe, All The Time



## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

Shooting his team out of the playoffs? Could it happen? Kobe has shot a TERRIBLE FG % lately...historically bad, now his team is in danger of not making the playoffs. Very MJ like


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## Pain5155 (May 28, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

buddy, the lakers are a lock for the playoffs, no way g-state can catch them.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

I think LA is purposely dropping this game to stay in that 7th spot in order to face Phoenix in the first round instead of San Antonio. If they won tonight, they'd be in the 6th spot with few games remaining for shuffling positions.

That said, Kobe shooting terribly is nothing new or surprising.


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## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

I hope the Suns get them in the first round...in fact...I pray the Suns get the Lakers.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Who the hell said Kobe is the greatest player ever?


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Who in their right mind actually said that Kobe was the greatest player ever? If someone actually did, they're probably extremely biased and don't represent a large population.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



JNice said:


> Who the hell said Kobe is the greatest player ever?





Ras said:


> Who in their right mind actually said that Kobe was the greatest player ever?


Card Trader did, just now. It's a cool strawman argumant you can use to degrade a great player having a bad shooting night. Or maybe he really believes it. Who knows.


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## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Card Trader did, just now. It's a cool strawman argumant you can use to degrade a great player having a bad shooting night. Or maybe he really believes it. Who knows.


"A" Bad shooting night? LOL.


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## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Obviously there are a few that think Kobe > MJ
http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-forum/349022-putting-kobe-perspective.html


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

The splits for April have him at 33ppg on like 46% FG, and a good TS% when you factor in free throws. He is just having a bad shooting night. He was 14-25 against Phoenix and 13-27 against Seattle his last two games. That's over 50%.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Card Trader said:


> Shooting his team out of the playoffs? Could it happen? Kobe has shot a TERRIBLE FG % lately...historically bad, now his team is in danger of not making the playoffs. Very MJ like


*looks at your title under the user name*

Yep, not even gonna bother.


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## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Tragedy said:


> *looks at your title under the user name*
> 
> Yep, not even gonna bother.


Yet...you did bother. Thanks for playing, sport.


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

9-30
wow.....
and yeah the Lakers are in danger of not making the playoffs...but its more likely the Nuggets and Lakers stay in than the Clippers...unless the Lakers really really give up ....
the Warriors are not ****ing losing....


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

His shooting % has been predictably pitiful since the games ended against those cupcake teams. Of course, they haven't entirely ended. He did manage to shoot near .500 against the sorry Sonics. But couldn't against the league's whipping boys the Sacramento Kings. Even T-Mac managed to shoot 50% against them the other day :laugh:

Kobe I believe has shot 50% or better *once* since the 4th 50 point game.

Yep, just as good as MJ offensively :lol:


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## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Sir Patchwork said:


> The splits for April have him at 33ppg on like 46% FG, and a good TS% when you factor in free throws. He is just having a bad shooting night. He was 14-25 against Phoenix and 13-27 against Seattle his last two games. That's over 50%.


Why don't you tell us all his % after his string of 50 point games?

15-33
7-26
19-44!!! 44 shots!
6-14
14-31
13-34
13-27
14-25
9-30


No matter how you slice that, it's terrible.


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## LineOFire (Apr 20, 2004)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

31.3 points on 46% shooting sounds pretty damn good to me.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Card Trader said:


> Why don't you tell us all his % after his string of 50 point games?
> 
> 15-33
> 7-26
> ...


A little under 42 percent over nine games. Below Kobe Bryant standards? Yes. Terrible? Not really.


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## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Rawse said:


> A little under 42 percent over nine games. Below Kobe Bryant standards? Yes. Terrible? Not really.


Actually, that IS terrible. When you have that high of a volume of shots, you HAVE to be hitting more than that...OR,what you do when you can't shoot worth a lick, get your teammates involved. Just isn't happening and the Lakers keep dropping games.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Card Trader said:


> Actually, that IS terrible. When you have that high of a volume of shots, you HAVE to be hitting more than that...OR,what you do when you can't shoot worth a lick, get your teammates involved. Just isn't happening and the Lakers keep dropping games.


Clearly, Kobe Bryant will never win an NBA title.

Unless, of course, he can learn to pass like Steve Nash.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

9-30????? Jesus.


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## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Rawse said:


> Clearly, Kobe Bryant will never win an NBA title without Shaq.
> 
> Unless, of course, he can learn to pass like Steve Nash, and shoot as well as him too.


Pretty much.


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Rawse said:


> Clearly, Kobe Bryant will never win an NBA title.
> 
> Unless, of course, he can learn to pass like Steve Nash.



He probably just needs a new car to ride to more championships.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

They should have traded Odom for Boozer last season and Bynum for Kidd but they didn't even want to give up Walton. Now, they're stuck in mediocrity with a crappy roster.


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Wasn't 45% Kobe's highest field-goal percentage for a season? It might have been 46%.

He has always been a volume shooter, and most of the time he makes a good portion of his shots.
He isn't even close to Michael Jordan in terms of accomplishments, but skill-wise, I think the comparison isn't far off. Lets wait 'till Kobe finishes his career and then decide if he is greater then Jordan.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Dr. Seuss said:


> Wasn't 45% Kobe's highest field-goal percentage for a season? It might have been 46%.


Nah...I believe it's actually 47%. His best w/ the big security blanket beside him under considerably easier rules equals MJ's worst FG% as a Bull(and that too a 36 year old MJ in 97-98) :biggrin:

Call me when Kobe sniffs .500 in a season. Much less average that for an entire career.

Skill-wise I'll admit Kobe's not that far behind MJ. I'll give him that. But as far as basketball brains and actual accomplishments are concerned he's not on the same planet.


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Rawse said:


> Clearly, Kobe Bryant will never win an NBA title.
> 
> Unless, of course, he can learn to pass like *Steve Nash*.


Are you being sarcastic? Because the last time I checked passing like Nash has not won him a title yet, but you never know, just like you will never know whether Kobe will win another title or not.
As for Kobe recent slump, where he is shooting 42%, Iverson who is one of the best player ever to play the game, averages around 42-43% for his careers and he attempts less threes.
P.s. those people who complain about seeing too many Kobe threads, did you notice that half of the threads are started by the haters.


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Theonee said:


> Are you being sarcastic? Because the last time I checked passing like Nash has not won him a title yet, but you never know, just like you will never know whether Kobe will win another title or not.



Greatest post...........ever.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

The problem isn't on Kobe. It's on the other 4 dudes who aren't producing. The offense is getting stagnant and he is being forced to shoot off-balance shots with the shot-clock winding down. If Odom stops showing up drunk to games and if Smush quits being such an easy cover by just standing there for the 24 seconds and if Bynum actually fought for position, they may have a chance. They aren't moving! It's like a friggin 15 seed in the NCAA playing with Kobe! The dude can shoot, he is probably the best individual talent (Nash is the best team talent which is more important IMO) on the offensive end in the league, but he needs to be set up. 

This is what happens when you let your GM go (Bus) to another team and think that that job is easy to do. Look at the moves they made after he left. Traded Shaq at 25 cents to the dollar (talent-wise). I mean come on! After they traded Butler for Brown, it was essentially a trade of Shaq for Odom and Brown! Next they let their PG go uncontested even for minimum, traded their backup SG (Rush) got rid of their energy guys(Medvedenko and George). They should probably just tank and hope that they end up with a good draft pick, because they will stay at the No. 6-8 seed until Jackson and/or Kobe leaves the team.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Shaq might have 2 rings without Kobe by the end of this year...

Damn....

Its almost like the split helped them both...kind of like how Nash and Dirk split.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



IceMan23and3 said:


> The problem isn't on Kobe. It's on the other 4 dudes who aren't producing. The offense is getting stagnant and he is being forced to shoot off-balance shots with the shot-clock winding down. If Odom stops showing up drunk to games and if Smush quits being such an easy cover by just standing there for the 24 seconds and if Bynum actually fought for position, they may have a chance. They aren't moving! It's like a friggin 15 seed in the NCAA playing with Kobe! The dude can shoot, he is probably the best individual talent (Nash is the best team talent which is more important IMO) on the offensive end in the league, but he needs to be set up.
> 
> This is what happens when you let your GM go (Bus) to another team and think that that job is easy to do. Look at the moves they made after he left. Traded Shaq at 25 cents to the dollar (talent-wise). I mean come on! After they traded Butler for Brown, it was essentially a trade of Shaq for Odom and Brown! Next they let their PG go uncontested even for minimum, traded their backup SG (Rush) got rid of their energy guys(Medvedenko and George). They should probably just tank and hope that they end up with a good draft pick, because they will stay at the No. 6-8 seed until Jackson and/or Kobe leaves the team.



Odom isn't the problem. 

The Lakers just need some consistency with frontline. If Kwame and Bynum would give them what they need in the next few years they will be perennial top 5 seeds.

Peace


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



compsciguy78 said:


> Shaq might have 2 rings without Kobe by the end of this year...
> 
> Damn....
> 
> Its almost like the split helped them both...kind of like how Nash and Dirk split.


I don't know how winning championships together to one winning a championship(s) and the other being at best a first round exit is helping them both, but ok.....


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Theonee said:


> Are you being sarcastic? Because the last time I checked passing like Nash has not won him a title yet, but you never know, just like you will never know whether Kobe will win another title or not.


:nonono:


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Theonee said:


> Are you being sarcastic? Because the last time I checked passing like Nash has not won him a title yet, but you never know, just like you will never know whether Kobe will win another title or not.


This is true... mainly because HE HAS NEVER PASSED LIKE STEVE NASH!!!!!!

If you are referring to last year's playoffs, there is a stark difference between 67 and 36 assists in a seven game series. Nash averaged 9.56apg in the series while Kobe averaged 5.14apg... but I guess? that's passing like Nash, if by Nash you mean a retarded kid playing by himself.


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



IceMan23and3 said:


> This is true... mainly because HE HAS NEVER PASSED LIKE STEVE NASH!!!!!!
> 
> If you are referring to last year's playoffs, there is a stark difference between 67 and 36 assists in a seven game series. Nash averaged 9.56apg in the series while Kobe averaged 5.14apg... but I guess? that's passing like Nash, if by Nash you mean a retarded kid playing by himself.


Ok, maybe you misunderstood me, let me re arrange the words ,*Are you being sarcastic? Because the last time I checked Nash has not won a title yet, but you never know, just like you will never know whether Kobe will win another title or not.*


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Card Trader said:


> Yet...you did bother. Thanks for playing, sport.


No. I didn't. Thank YOU for playing.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

At least Kobe also had 10 assists...


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## Blink4 (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



IceMan23and3 said:


> This is true... mainly because HE HAS NEVER PASSED LIKE STEVE NASH!!!!!!
> 
> If you are referring to last year's playoffs, there is a stark difference between 67 and 36 assists in a seven game series. Nash averaged 9.56apg in the series while Kobe averaged 5.14apg... but I guess? that's passing like Nash, if by Nash you mean a retarded kid playing by himself.


Hmmm, could this possibly be because Kobe is a shooting guard and Nash is a point guard? Just throwing that out there, genius.


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## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Cut it out with these assissts already. Kobe's a friggin shooting guard and still puts up impressive numbers in this category. Out of the 19 players that have a higher apg in the ENTIRE league than him, only 3 play other positions then PG (T-Mac, James and Iggy). But I guess he's just stat-padding anyway when he has a lot of assissts; and being selfish when he has fewer.

The thread is pretty stupid, Cart Trader is reminding me of Amareca (your regular Einstein of basketball) more and more. The % was not good (since his % for the season is .462), but terrible? Please, man... AI, like someone already said, had a whole season below .400 (actually he had 2, 01-02 and 03-04); Kobe's had a bad stretch and still managed to shoot around .420 and yet you have to start a pointless thread like this. I also didn't like some of his games in this strecth, but hey, what can you do? But I'll try to play along: Yes, Kobe is shooting them out of the playoffs... but he's the one who put them into a position to get into the playoffs in the first place, so you really can't hold nothing against the guy THIS season, as he's done everything humanly possible for this pathetic team. Smush, Kwame, Bynum, Walton etc? Jesus Christ, I wonder on which other team these guys would be starting games on a regular basis... and before you mention Odom. He's played a total of 51 games! So all of you should really stop acting obsessed and let a team/player/whatever be. 

p.s.: Cart Trader where were you when he averaged 52.6 points on .526 shooting over that stretch that "revived" then rock bottom Lakers? Oh yeah, haters like yourself only crawl out of their stone when there's something to criticise. Grow up!

peace


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## Headfake98 (Dec 10, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Theonee said:


> Ok, maybe you misunderstood me, let me re arrange the words ,*Are you being sarcastic? Because the last time I checked Nash has not won a title yet, but you never know, just like you will never know whether Kobe will win another title or not.*


Are you ****ing serious? Of course the guy who you originally posted about was being sarcastic. Its just you're too much of a laker homer to see it.


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## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Tragedy said:


> No. I didn't. Thank YOU for playing.


Your second response in the thread that you obviously don't want to bother with....LOL. :lol:


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



SPMJ said:


> Nah...I believe it's actually 47%. His best w/ the big security blanket beside him under considerably easier rules equals MJ's worst FG% as a Bull(and that too a 36 year old MJ in 97-98) :biggrin:
> 
> Call me when Kobe sniffs .500 in a season. Much less average that for an entire career.
> 
> Skill-wise I'll admit Kobe's not that far behind MJ. I'll give him that. But as far as basketball brains and actual accomplishments are concerned he's not on the same planet.


kobe's league adjusted ts% has been pretty comparable to jordan from '93 till he retired the 2nd time (we'll forget about jordan's final return). kobe's currently 36th in the league. jordan wasn't higher than 46th after '92. there are only 7 sg's ahead of kobe in the league, and only 2 of them score over 20 ppg (and both have played 19+ less games than kobe).

is it too much for everyone to stop using fg% as a relative measure? it's meaningless.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Theonee said:


> Ok, maybe you misunderstood me, let me re arrange the words ,*Are you being sarcastic? Because the last time I checked Nash has not won a title yet, but you never know, just like you will never know whether Kobe will win another title or not.*


Yes he was being sarcastic.

This thread might not last too long. We'll have to see if the trolling gets a little out of control. Unless of course the original thread starter was just joking. :wink:


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## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Plastic Man said:


> p.s.: Cart Trader where were you when he averaged 52.6 points on .526 shooting over that stretch that "revived" then rock bottom Lakers? Oh yeah, haters like yourself only crawl out of their stone when there's something to criticise. Grow up!
> 
> peace


I equate Kobe to Jay Buhner...if any of you use to follow baseball in the early 90s. Buhner would hit some of the most monsterous bombs you would ever see....but he'd also strike out a considerable amount of times. Sure, he helped his team when he hit those homers, but boy did he hurt them when he kept swinging for the fences in situations where he just needed to advance a runner or just put the ball in play.

Kobe can hit those homers and have games like he did...he can even string a few together...but he's always got that homer hitter mentality in the back of his head and will chuck up the 31st shot with no hesitation, knowing he missed 20 of the previous 30 and there are two players with better shots, wide open.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Card Trader said:


> I equate Kobe to Jay Buhner...if any of you use to follow baseball in the early 90s. Buhner would hit some of the most monsterous bombs you would ever see....but he'd also strike out a considerable amount of times. Sure, he helped his team when he hit those homers, but boy did he hurt them when he kept swinging for the fences in situations where he just needed to advance a runner or just put the ball in play.
> 
> Kobe can hit those homers and have games like he did...he can even string a few together...but he's always got that homer hitter mentality in the back of his head and will chuck up the 31st shot with no hesitation, knowing he missed 20 of the previous 30 and there are two players with better shots, wide open.


how many perimeter scorers have scored more efficiently than kobe this year? or does that not matter?


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



kflo said:


> how many perimeter scorers have scored more efficiently than kobe this year? or does that not matter?


Damnit! Now he's gonna say Steve Nash! lol


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



kflo said:


> is it too much for everyone to stop using fg% as a relative measure? it's meaningless.


Not as long as the NBA keeps using FG% as the standard stat, unfortunately. It's a primitive measure, but the "official" one. Dwyane Wade's FG% isn't the same thing as Kobe Bryant's FG% and can't be compared, but people will act like it is without taking into account other factors, like three-point shooting (and how Wade takes relatively little). If people feel the need to keep ignoring these things, that's a mark on them. If you give more weight to a measure that doesn't take into account three-pointers and free-throws, than to one that does, you need to rethink a few things. Nobody can ever respond to kflo when he brings up a player's ts% or pps to show that they aren't as inefficient as their FG% might show, and might actually be surprisingly efficient. I wonder why that is.

Having said that, even if you love FG% as a measure, Kobe's at 31+ ppg on 46% shooting for the season. That's terrible? I can only name two players with the exception of Shaq in the post-MJ era that have posted similar scoring numbers: LeBron and T-Mac, who have both done it once. This will be the third season Kobe goes for 30+ points on 45%+ shooting. This thread does a solid job with continuing to give merit to the notion that Kobe's haters talk about him and bring him up far more than his fans, though.


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

In the numbers provided, Kobe would be shooting 42% which isn't that awful. It's called a slump, which is regular thing for a high volume shooting guard. Jordan went through it. West went through it. Every major guard goes through it.
More importantly, some of your idiots (once again) obviously do not watch Lakers game and just base their juvenile opinions on stats like they're still a highschool kid writing awful pieces of journalism on their awesome blogs. Here is why he has a hard time consistently hitting a high percentage:

a) He's always getting double teamed. Nothing new, and he deals with the double team better than anyone in the game by far.

b) His team is awful at hitting open shots. The fact remains is that Kobe cannot even get the double team to slack due to the fact that when he gives it off to teamates, they fail to hit easy open buckets. This results in the constant doubling and the feeilng that he has a better shot at making baskets with a double team in his face than giving it to the open guy, and at times, he's right.

c) His team is very mediocre. What comes of this? Well, if YOU WERE watching Lakers game, you would see that 20% of Kobe's shots come from getting the ball deferred to him with 5 or less seconds on the shot clock after his team was unable to produce anything of value. This forces him to rush a shot with a double team coming at him as the shot clock expires. 

d) His team is very mediocre part II. In this case, Kobe's forced to either force it by driving to the rim in order to get free throws, stop the clock and help his team back into the game. If not that, he has to jack up threes because once again, his team is mediocre.

See? If you having any sort of reading comprehension, you should be able to clearly understand what I just explained since it as basic as it gets. The fact that he is able to put up a string of 50+ points on a relatively good shooting percentage with the supporting cast he has is quite phenomenal, and makes him the most prolific offensive weapon of our generation (since Shaq no longer dominates).

Got it? Understood? Great. Stop posting utter No masking.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



kflo said:


> kobe's league adjusted ts% has been pretty comparable to jordan from '93 till he retired the 2nd time (we'll forget about jordan's final return). kobe's currently 36th in the league. jordan wasn't higher than 46th after '92. there are only 7 sg's ahead of kobe in the league, and only 2 of them score over 20 ppg (and both have played 19+ less games than kobe).
> 
> is it too much for everyone to stop using fg% as a relative measure? it's meaningless.


Why? It's a usful stat. It shows how often someone makes vs. misses shots. Why should we stop using it. It doesn't take into account _everything_, nor should it IMO.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Mateo said:


> Why? It's a usful stat. It shows how often someone makes vs. misses shots. Why should we stop using it. It doesn't take into account _everything_, nor should it IMO.


one guy shoots 4-10. another shoots 5-10. 40% vs 50%. neither takes a ft. which was better?

fg% is entirely meaningless in answering the question. therefore comparing performance on the basis of fg% is meaningless. that's why.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

It's entirely meaningful in telling you which player shot better for the night. What you seem to be saying is that because it doesn't tell the *complete picture*, that it's therefore meaningless. I disagree. That's why we have a lot of different stats, to tell different parts of the picture.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

dup


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Mateo said:


> It's entirely meaningful in telling you which player shot better for the night. What you seem to be saying is that because it doesn't tell the *complete picture*, that it's therefore meaningless. I disagree. That's why we have a lot of different stats, to tell different parts of the picture.


ok - which player shot better for the night? and please define better.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Excuse me, it tells you which player _made more shots_. "Better" would be a qualitative term.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Mateo said:


> Excuse me, it tells you which player _made more shots_. "Better" would be a qualitative term.


so why would anyone compare players based on a measure with little qualitative value? what's the point? when someone whips out their little fg% comparison, they are indeed trying to make a qualitative judgement.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



SPMJ said:


> His shooting % has been predictably pitiful since the games ended against those cupcake teams. Of course, they haven't entirely ended. He did manage to shoot near .500 against the sorry Sonics. But couldn't against the league's whipping boys the Sacramento Kings. Even T-Mac managed to shoot 50% against them the other day :laugh:
> 
> Kobe I believe has shot 50% or better *once* since the 4th 50 point game.
> 
> Yep, just as good as MJ offensively :lol:


As good? Probably better.

One of the two has hit 12 3's in a game.

One of the two has hit 30 points in a quarter (that one has done it twice).

One of the two has hit 50 points in a half.

One of the two has hit 80 points in a game.

One of the two has hit 50 for 4 games in a row.

One of the two has hit 35 for 13 games in a row.

One of the two has averaged 40 points for a calender month (and done it four times).

When you can figure out the answer to those questions, get back at me with who has more offensive "accomplishments." Here is a tip, the answer to all those questions is the same player.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Mateo said:


> Why? It's a usful stat. It shows how often someone makes vs. misses shots. Why should we stop using it. It doesn't take into account _everything_, nor should it IMO.


It's not that it doesn't tell everything.

It's that it's a *fundamentally flawed statistic*. It would be much better if all shots were worth 2 points, but they're not. The fact that some shots are worth 3 points means that a player that shoots 3 pointers with great regularity will have an artificially lowered FG%, whereas he will be scoring at a much higher efficiency than the FG% would indicate.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

it doesn't have "little qualitative value". It has little qualitative value *by itself*, but combined with other measures (ft%, 3p%, minutes, etc) it allows a person to make a full argument. That's the strength of the stat; that tells you something very narrow that no one can really disagree with.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jamel Irief said:


> As good? Probably better.
> 
> One of the two has hit 12 3's in a game.
> 
> ...


That's definitely cherry-picking accomplishments. A similar list of "accomplishments" could be made just as easily for Jordan being the better scorer. And there are enough Jordan fans here that I expect someone will do just that.

I'm not saying one is a better scorer than the other, but making a list like that isn't a very good way of proving it. At the very least, all those numbers indicate only that Kobe is the streakier scorer. 

Cherry-picking a run of 9 or 10 games is just as dumb when trying to evaluate whether a player is great or not. Everyone goes through highs and lows.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Mateo said:


> it doesn't have "little qualitative value". It has little qualitative value *by itself*, but combined with other measures (ft%, 3p%, minutes, etc) it allows a person to make a full argument. That's the strength of the stat; that tells you something very narrow that no one can really disagree with.


eFG% gives an accurate quantitative measure of efficiency from the field, taking into account the value of 3-pointers when determining efficiency.

Now TS% may be a little more questionable because of the .44 FT% factor, but it's still a reasonable indicator of overall scoring efficiency.

But there is no argument I can think of where FG% would ever be used over eFG%.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Mateo said:


> it doesn't have "little qualitative value". It has little qualitative value *by itself*, but combined with other measures (ft%, 3p%, minutes, etc) it allows a person to make a full argument. That's the strength of the stat; that tells you something very narrow that no one can really disagree with.


give me a single context where it makes sense to use fg% instead of eFG% or ts% in formulating a qualitative argument comparing players.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jamel Irief said:


> As good? Probably better.
> 
> One of the two has hit 12 3's in a game.
> 
> ...


It was actually 9 games, and both Kobe and Michael did it.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Brandname said:


> That's definitely cherry-picking accomplishments. A similar list of "accomplishments" could be made just as easily for Jordan being the better scorer. And there are enough Jordan fans here that I expect someone will do just that.


I'll wait.


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



kflo said:


> kobe's league adjusted ts% has been pretty comparable to jordan from '93 till he retired the 2nd time (we'll forget about jordan's final return). kobe's currently 36th in the league. jordan wasn't higher than 46th after '92. there are only 7 sg's ahead of kobe in the league, and only 2 of them score over 20 ppg (and both have played 19+ less games than kobe).
> 
> is it too much for everyone to stop using fg% as a relative measure? it's meaningless.


Umm, FG% is not meaningless. TS% adjusts for FT's and three-pointers, but fails to account for (or inadequately accounts for) two things:

*1)* The deleterious effects of missed 3's, particularly the type that Kobe usually takes (i.e., off of one-on-one activity when the offense is stagnated, relatively early in the shot clock etc.). These lead to less of a chance of offensive rebounds as well as a better chance of transition opportunities the other way due to long rebounds and poor floor balance.


*2)* The fact that Kobe's TS% would be a lot lower if he wasn't getting 10+ FTA/gm but rather 7.4 FTA, 7.3 FTA, 8.0 FTA, and 7.0 FTA like Jordan received from the '92-'97 seasons. Calculate Kobe's TS% with an average of 7.3 FTA/gm and get back to me.


Personally, I like to use "points per possession" (PPP), because it's a more accurate measure of scoring ability since it accounts for the number of possessions used. Basically, it's points/(FGA+(FTA/2)). Here are Jordan's in the six championship seasons:

1.188 PPP (+.137 above league average)
1.138 PPP (+.092)
1.111 PPP (+.056)
1.144 PPP (+.079)
1.115 PPP (+.062)
1.046 PPP

Now, here are Kobe's the last three seasons ('05, '06, and '07):

1.098 PPP (+.056)
1.096 PPP (+.043)
1.130 PPP (+.077 estimated)

So no, they're not really close. Kobe is _easily_ having his most efficient year this season by this metric, however. He's also 28, the same age Jordan was in 1991, when he was +.137 above league average. Kobe's efficiency will undoubtedly get worse as he ages unless he cuts his volume. Jordan's best seasons by this measure came pre-championship (1.202 and 1.192 in '89 and '90). And the league average PPP has been fairly consistent, too, making it a reliable measure of offensive performance:


1.051 (1991)
1.046 (1992)
1.055 (1993)
1.065 (1996)
1.053 (1997)
1.042 (2005)
1.053 (2006)


I'd also like to know where you're getting these league rankings for TS% (e.g., "Kobe ranks 36th in TS%"), btw. Unless you've calculated every player's TS% every season, which would be incredibly tedious.

And lastly, to reiterate, Kobe's TS% *and* PPP are being artificially inflated by the absurd # of FTA's handed out today. Kobe (and several other players) is getting 2-3 more FTA/gm than a visibly more aggressive Jordan did from age 28-30. And no, the added FT's don't even things out relative to one's own league, because the preponderance of FT's are being awarded to wing players today, so FT's aren't normally distributed across positions/players, even controlling for volume of points or FGA's. In essence, the PPP and TS% of wing players are being inflated relative to the average league value (never mind relative to past leagues and players).


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

FG% Might be the most overrated stat in the game. There are so many things to factor in that people are either ignorant to or ignore to get their agende across. That stat is as representative of your team as it is shooting ability. You can watch Kobe and tell that he's not a _bad_ shooter, the problem is that he's shooting it too much...something he pretty much has to do. Why is that not ABC simple?


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Theonee said:


> Ok, maybe you misunderstood me, let me re arrange the words ,*Are you being sarcastic? Because the last time I checked Nash has not won a title yet, but you never know, just like you will never know whether Kobe will win another title or not.*


ahhhhh... now i understand your words. For a minute I thought you actaully believed Kobe could pass as well as Nash. What Kobe it to his own shot, Nash is for the team. And it all comes down to the PF/C. Shaq, Duncan, Olajuwon, Sheed.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Umm, FG% is not meaningless. TS% adjusts for FT's and three-pointers, but fails to account for (or inadequately accounts for) two things:
> 
> *1)* The deleterious effects of missed 3's, particularly the type that Kobe usually takes (i.e., off of one-on-one activity when the offense is stagnated, relatively early in the shot clock etc.). These lead to less of a chance of offensive rebounds as well as a better chance of transition opportunities the other way due to long rebounds and poor floor balance.


Do you have any evidence that this is the case?

In my viewing experience, I believe that missed 3's tend to create more opportunities for offensive rebounds, as the ball bounces away from the hoop more, beyond the point where boxing out is entirely effective. 

I obviously don't have any evidence for this, but then again I'm not trying to make any points with it. It just seems to me that 3 pointers tend to lead to offensive rebounds more often than other shots.



> *2)* The fact that Kobe's TS% would be a lot lower if he wasn't getting 10+ FTA/gm but rather 7.4 FTA, 7.3 FTA, 8.0 FTA, and 7.0 FTA like Jordan received from the '92-'97 seasons. Calculate Kobe's TS% with an average of 7.3 FTA/gm and get back to me.


This is true. But it is hard to quantify the differences in officiating tendencies between eras. Not only that, there are a number of different rules that have been changed since Jordan's highest scoring seasons that could cause an effect that isn't entirely related to rule changes. Legal zone defenses, for example, obviously have an effect on FTs and such. 

I'm not making the case that you're wrong on this point. But I don't fully agree with just normalizing the FT attempts because there have been more changes than just perimeter foul calling. These changes may also have an effect on the number of FT attempts which would invalidate your normalization.


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



_Dre_ said:


> FG% Might be the most overrated stat in the game. There are so many things to factor in that people are either ignorant to or ignore to get their agende across. That stat is as representative of your team as it is shooting ability. You can watch Kobe and tell that he's not a _bad_ shooter, the problem is that he's shooting it too much...something he pretty much has to do. Why is that not ABC simple?


*1)* There are players who managed good/great FG%'s on poor teams. Kobe's not the only player in history in his situation; this also ignores his middling efficiency pre-2005, when he had a good/great team.

*2)* You're suggesting that FG% goes up as volume of shots goes down, which basically amounts to a truism. With those extra attempts, however, comes volume of points. No one has ever suggested that if Kobe were content to average, say, 26.5-28.5 ppg that he couldn't or wouldn't achieve much better efficiency in all measures (FG%, eFG%, TS%, ppfga, PPS, PPP).


----------



## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Card Trader said:


> Obviously there are a few that think Kobe > MJ
> http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-forum/349022-putting-kobe-perspective.html





Ras said:


> Who in their right mind actually said that Kobe was the greatest player ever? *If someone actually did, they're probably extremely biased and don't represent a large population.*


And you don't even disagree with me considering you said there are a 'few.' You're just hating to hate. Only extremely biased people will actually believe that Kobe is the greatest ever, and there's no point in arguing with people like that.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Why has this thread suddenly turned into Jordan-Kobe debate again. Remember we tried this million times.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> *1)* There are players who managed good/great FG%'s on poor teams.


But are they perimeter players? Can I have some names?



> Kobe's not the only player in history in his situation; this also ignores his middling efficiency pre-2005, when he had a good/great team.


You can call it middling if you want, but 45% is fine from a guy who takes most of his shots from 18 feet out. There are very few players who can average more than that without being primarily penetrators/midrange shooters. 



> *2)* You're suggesting that FG% goes up as volume of shots goes down, which basically amounts to a truism.


Well close the thread then. Case solved. 

And it's not a truism. People are misconstruing the main reason for his low percentage. They're trying to say it comes from inefficiency (compared to Jordan) rather than the true reason, which is what I said. 



> With those extra attempts, however, comes volume of points. *No one has ever suggested that if Kobe were content to average, say, 26.5-28.5 ppg that he couldn't or wouldn't achieve much better efficiency in all measures (FG%, eFG%, TS%, ppfga, PPS, PPP)*


So what are you telling me? That's just a random fact you're throwing there. _That's_ a truism If he was content to "average 26", as if he would stop scoring after a certain point, then he'd be content to losing. Bottomline, he's doing what he has to do to win, not maintain a percentage to stay on par with what people want.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Mateo said:


> Excuse me, it tells you which player _made more shots_. "Better" would be a qualitative term.


so why would anyone compare players based on a measure with little qualitative value? what's the point? when someone whips out their little fg% comparison, they are indeed trying to make a qualitative judgement.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Theonee said:


> Why has this thread suddenly turned into Jordan-Kobe debate again. Remember we tried this million times.


It never fails.


----------



## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Theonee said:


> Why has this thread suddenly turned into Jordan-Kobe debate again. Remember we tried this million times.



Because that is exactly what the thread starter intended for....


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Ok then, let me throw something there Jordan has made *581-1,778 *three pointers in his entire career, His made 111 three pointers twice in his career, and if I am not mistaken, NBA , shortened the three point line during that time.
Kobe has so far made *931-2,759* three pointers.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

I'm still waiting for that list Brandname was promising.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> *2)* The fact that Kobe's TS% would be a lot lower if he wasn't getting 10+ FTA/gm but rather 7.4 FTA, 7.3 FTA, 8.0 FTA, and 7.0 FTA like Jordan received from the '92-'97 seasons. Calculate Kobe's TS% with an average of 7.3 FTA/gm and get back to me.



jordan himself had a huge drop starting in '90 in his fta/fga relative to league average fta/fga. is kobe to blame? kobe should be penalized for his advantage relative to league average? 



Jordan23Forever said:


> Personally, I like to use "points per possession" (PPP), because it's a more accurate measure of scoring ability since it accounts for the number of possessions used.


no, it's not more accurate. it's less accurate.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jamel Irief said:


> I'm still waiting for that list Brandname was promising.


Actually Brandname and Dre are two of the most unbiased people around here, I think he is just telling that some Jordan fans will bring up some selective stats, which is irrelevant in judging someone's career.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

just to get this out of the way:

http://www.nba.com/jordan/list_honors.html


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jamel Irief said:


> I'm still waiting for that list Brandname was promising.


I hope you weren't expecting the list from me. I wasn't planning on making one because I don't really have a horse in this race one way or the other. I like both Kobe and Jordan, not really one more than the other though. All I know is that they're two of the best scorers I've ever seen (probably the two best pretty easily).


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Theonee said:


> Ok then, let me throw something there Jordan has made *581-1,778 *three pointers in his entire career, His made 111 three pointers twice in his career, and if I am not mistaken, NBA , shortened the three point line during that time.
> Kobe has so far made *931-2,759* three pointers.


Eve if you remove every 3-point make and attempt, Kobe is shooting 47.9% in his career on 2-pointers. Good/very good, but not stellar, either.

If you take only Kobe's career 2-point attempts/makes and give him Jordan's career # of 3FGA (1778 attempts) along with his (Kobe's) career 3-pt% (33.7%), he'd be shooting 46.0% on his career. Again, better than he has now, but nowhere near Jordan, not even if we only compare relative to league averages. And even pre-zone.


The thing that always gets me about those trying to act like Kobe's just as efficient as Jordan (see: kflo) is this: why couldn't the supposed "best player in the league; better than Jordan OMG!" shoot >47% (never mind 50%) even *once*, even before the implemtation of zone rules, and with the most dominant player of the last 30 years drawing multiple defenders every trip downcourt? Why couldn't he do it? Not once? This was even before he shot a ton of 3's, mind you. Never mind shooting 51% for an entire career like Jordan did pre-Washington...


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Kobe is not as efficient as Jordan. Jordan had two edges on Kobe in that regard. Jordan's athleticism allowed him more “clean” looks and Jordan was simply smarter. Kobe will often take extremely difficult shots when he doesn't necessarily have to. Shot selection plays a big part here.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Brandname said:


> I hope you weren't expecting the list from me. I wasn't planning on making one because I don't really have a horse in this race one way or the other. I like both Kobe and Jordan, not really one more than the other though. All I know is that they're two of the best scorers I've ever seen (probably the two best pretty easily).


No I wasn't expecting it from you, I'm actually curious to see it, because as of now I'm sure the only pure scoring acheivements Jordan has on Kobe has to do with longevity.


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



bballlife said:


> Kobe is not as efficient as Jordan. Jordan had two edges on Kobe in that regard. Jordan's athleticism allowed him more “clean” looks and Jordan was simply smarter. Kobe will often take extremely difficult shots when he doesn't necessarily have to. Shot selection plays a big part here.


I absolutely agree. Jordan was more athletic, especially in terms of quickness. His basketball IQ/court awareness (of which shot selection is a part) were off the charts as compared to Kobe imo. I think this is readily apparent when you watch the two of them play. The problem is that people act like this aspect of the game isn't that important, even when discussing who the "better offensive player" is, when in fact it's one of the biggest determining factors. It's why Larry Bird is one of the best scorers ever imo despite only being passably athletic -- his bball IQ was astronomical. He knew exactly what to do and when, and knew it 5 seconds before everyone else. 

It's the biggest difference between Kobe and Jordan imo.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Jordan had a better brain for the game. He knew what was going to happen before it went down. It wasn't a flow with him, he was the game, and everyone adjusted. That's that next level Kobe has to get to. He has reached the pinnacle of All-Star players and now has to get to that eschelon of the greats. I think that is why there are so many "haters" of Kobe is because we are ALL waiting for him to get to that eschelon. He just doesn't have the focus for a full 48 minutes of hell. He turns it on and off all the time but never really full throttle for a whole game. Jordan did. Everyone adjusted to Jordan, and Kobe needs to learn how to do that.

As for this season, he is doing his old tricks which won't work, and isn't committed to new ones to properly implement them.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Theonee said:


> Why has this thread suddenly turned into Jordan-Kobe debate again. Remember we tried this million times.


Jordan is the one player that Kobe haters can always hold over him. They probably don't realize that it's really more of a compliment to Kobe. They would be better off trying to put Kobe down at Wade or LeBron's level than comparing him to the consensus greatest player ever. That's basically conceding that no player in today's game is good enough to compare favorably to Kobe, so we have to reach into history.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Jordan is the one player that Kobe haters can always hold over him. They probably don't realize that it's really more of a compliment to Kobe. They would be better off trying to put Kobe down at Wade or LeBron's level than comparing him to the consensus greatest player ever. That's basically conceding that no player in today's game is good enough to compare favorably to Kobe, so we have to reach into history.


I will agree that he is by far the best shooting guard in the league, which will get him noticed and compared to the greatest SG/player of all time. But these accolades and comparisons are premature he still has another couple of levels to go.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



IceMan23and3 said:


> I will agree that he is by far the best shooting guard in the league, which will get him noticed and compared to the greatest SG/player of all time. But these accolades and comparisons are premature he still has another couple of levels to go.


He will never have the athleticism/explosiveness that Jordan did, or the huge hands that Jordan did. That's the only difference, but it's not something that can be learned. It's just god-given. Kobe will never be better than Jordan or as good. 

Shouldn't stop anyone from appreciating him while he is here, because if you don't, you might end up wishing that you did. He is well on his way to being the 2nd best shooting guard of all-time and maybe a top 10 player of all-time. That's not the type of player you want to take for granted. Not me anyways.


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Jordan is the one player that Kobe haters can always hold over him.


Not really. Kobe's nowhere near as good as Magic, Bird, Shaq, Dream, KAJ, Wilt etc. either, but when a guy devotes his entire life to trying to be another human being, it's only natural that people will notice and make the comparisons. 

He's definitely a top 3 SG, though. You said "player," though, not SG.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Card Trader said:


> Shooting his team out of the playoffs? Could it happen? Kobe has shot a TERRIBLE FG % lately...historically bad, now his team is in danger of not making the playoffs. Very MJ like


"Historically bad"?

Didn't someone won the MVP award shooting .420FG% for the season?


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Sir Patchwork said:


> He will never have the athleticism/explosiveness that Jordan did, or the huge hands that Jordan did. That's the only difference, but it's not something that can be learned.


That's far from the only difference, though. It's not even the biggest one.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> That's far from the only difference, though. It's not even the biggest one.


Yes it is.


----------



## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Jordan is the one player that Kobe haters can always hold over him. They probably don't realize that it's really more of a compliment to Kobe. They would be better off trying to put Kobe down at Wade or LeBron's level than comparing him to the consensus greatest player ever. That's basically conceding that no player in today's game is good enough to compare favorably to Kobe, so we have to reach into history.



a point i've tried to make every time one of these pops up, so about every other day or so. let 'em keep arguing. most of us who are a little more seasoned do realize the truth lies somewhere in between. and the two players grow closer and closer every passing season. i would love to see this debate when kobe is 38 instead of a ripe old 28.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Yes it is.


I beg to differ.

The majopr difference between Jordan and Kobe is not athletic habilities, IMHO, but demeanor.

Jordan in his late 20's learned how to tone down his act and play the team game. 
Kobe has still to show he has learned that lesson.


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Yes it is.


No, it isn't. Basketball IQ/court awareness is the biggest difference; one of the manifestations of this is shot selection, but there are others (e.g., knowing when to be aggressive/passive on the court, controlling tempo etc.). Even die-hard Kobe fans on another site noted that themselves, without me prompting them.

But hey, if you want to believe that the only differences between them are relatively minor physical ones, be my guest. Most of us who watched both in their prime would beg to differ.




Jamel Irief said:


> No I wasn't expecting it from you, I'm actually curious to see it, because as of now I'm sure the only pure scoring acheivements Jordan has on Kobe has to do with longevity.


What a stupid thing to say. Here:


-- Highest career playoff ppg average (33.4 ppg); Kobe's only had _a single series_ higher than this (35.0 ppg vs,. Sacramento, 4 games total) -- Jordan did it for his entire playoff career (179 games)

-- Highest career ppg average (30.1; both of these have nothing to do with longevity, and in fact were higher when he was 28 like Kobe)

-- Single game playoff scoring record: 63 points (Kobe's high: 50)

-- Scored 40+ 37 times in one season (1987); Kobe's high is 27 such games in one season)

-- Averaged 41+ ppg in a playoff series 5 times (Kobe: 0 times)

-- Averaged 45 ppg in a playoff series twice

-- Had a career playoff average of 34.8 ppg upon retirement in 1993; Kobe has only had *one series* in his entire career above that average (35.0 ppg vs. Sacramento, 4 games); Jordan basically averaged Kobe's playoff career *best* single-series ppg average over *111 games* in 9 postseasons

-- Kobe's career high in FGM in one season is 978, while Jordan bettered that mark *5 times*, including marks of 1034, 1069, and 1098 FGM. 

-- Most points in one half, NBA Finals (35 points); he sat over 6:30 that half, too.

-- Highest average, NBA Finals: 41.0 ppg (1993)

-- Most consecutive games of 40+ points in the NBA Finals: 4 games (Kobe has never even had *a game* over 36 points in the finals, much less 4 straight games of 40+ in one series)

-- One of only 4 players to score 30+ in every game of a Finals series, in 1993 (6 consecutive games of 30+ points). For comparison's sake, Kobe's only scored 30+ in the Finals *4 times in his entire career* (in 19 Finals games).

-- Scored 40+ points in the playoffs as astounding *40 times*; Kobe's only done so *4* times in his career. 4 games of 40+ was a great playoff _series_ for Jordan, not an entire career.

-- Scored 50+ in the playoffs 8 times as compared to Kobe's 1 time.

-- Scored 40+ in at least 3 consecutive games in the playoffs three separate times. Remember, Kobe's only had 4 playoff games of 40+ in total.

-- Scored 50+ in one season 8 times (Kobe: 6 times)

-- Scored 23 consecutive points, an NBA record



And there are others as well. Don't even get me started on efficiency stuff, which is certainly an aspect of scoring. Scoring isn't just about who can put numbers up, but who can do so efficiently and consistently, and who can bring it on the biggest stage.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

I knew J23F would be the man for the job.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> What a stupid thing to say. Here:
> 
> 
> -- Highest career playoff ppg average (33.4 ppg); Kobe's only had _a single series_ higher than this (35.0 ppg vs,. Sacramento, 4 games total) -- Jordan did it for his entire playoff career (179 games)
> ...


Is there a reason you 95% of your posts pertain to the playoffs? Could it be because Kobe has seven career playoff games as the first option?


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

I'm probably one of the biggest Kobe homers on this site. IMO Kobe eats guy's like LeBron, and Wades lunch in the NBA game today. However I don't believe Kobe is really that close to the greatness that was Michael Jordan, and I'm not even talking about points per game, huge scoring games, or efficieny. To me Jordan actually freaking ruled the court on offense, and defense like a beast. Dude was as strong as centers, and so ferocious when he was hot that Jordan would make the SG's, and Forwards of todays generation wilt, and cry. I have never seen a guard be so incredible on both ends of the court like MJ. And Kobes not even close. I pray Kobe watches Jordan games. Because Jordan had a never say die attitude about basketball. We all have seen MJ make a great play, but then another player strips the ball from him, yet Jordan hustles his butt off on defense runs down the guy for the open dunk and knocks the ball out of bounds. Jordan never gaven an inch, not even when he was beat on a play. And thats something I see Kobe do way to much, when Kobe gets beat on a play or makes a mistake he freaking whines to the ref or stops playing because he's mad. Please Kobe watch MJ, and Kobe talk to the refs when the game is stopped.


----------



## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jamel Irief said:


> Is there a reason you 95% of your posts pertain to the playoffs? Could it be because Kobe has seven career playoff games as the first option?


No...it could be, however, that Jordan was just a much better player and knew how to come up big when it counted. He didn't take his ball and go home when his team was down in a game 7 and refuse to shoot for an entire half, just to prove a point. He was a leader.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jamel Irief said:


> Is there a reason you 95% of your posts pertain to the playoffs? Could it be because Kobe has seven career playoff games as the first option?


Aheemmm... Kobe has had more then that, Should I remind you of the Detroit Pistons vs Lakers finals ?


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



23AJ said:


> Aheemmm... Kobe has had more then that, Should I remind you of the Detroit Pistons vs Lakers finals ?


Go ahead? 

I think it's common knowledge at this point that Kobe became a more dangerous scorer when he didn't have Shaq backing him up. Nobody was claiming Kobe was as good of a scorer as Jordan back when he played with Shaq.


----------



## theflyballa (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Kobe is the greatest player ever. Just the worst supporting cast ever. Put Jordan on this Laker team and they'll go 0-82. Kobe should win MVP.


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jamel Irief said:


> Is there a reason you 95% of your posts pertain to the playoffs? Could it be because Kobe has seven career playoff games as the first option?


Right. That's why he took more shots than Shaq for 4 of their 5 postseasons together since 2000. In fact, he averaged 26.4 FGA/gm in the '03 postseason, yet didn't even crack 40 points _once_. Please...

For all the talk of Kobe's playoff heroics, he hasn't done much in that regard. Sorry, but that's a huge part of the game, and a huge part of one's legacy. Guys like Jerry West, Bird, Hakeem, and Jordan built their legend in the postseason, not performing trivial scoring feats against sub-.400 teams in meaningless regular season games. Let's see him do his thing against elite teams, not bottom-feeders like he usually does.


I also like how you insisted that Jordan only has longevity-related scoring records/accomplishments over Kobe, but now all the qualifications come when it's clear that there's a yawning gulf between them.


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jamel Irief said:


> Go ahead?
> 
> I think it's common knowledge at this point that Kobe became a more dangerous scorer when he didn't have Shaq backing him up. Nobody was claiming Kobe was as good of a scorer as Jordan back when he played with Shaq.


The only way in which the two are comparable scoring-wise are volume of points and scoring-related skills (midrange game, footwork, shooting etc.). Note I said comparable, not equal. When you look past that -- at things like efficiency, consistency of production (which is important to a contending team; i.e., a consistent 30-35 per game on great efficiency is better than 40 one game on good efficiency and 20 the next on 7-25 FG), and basketball IQ/court awareness -- it becomes clear that Kobe is not as good as Jordan as a scorer. He also had a fair advantage in athleticism.


The new rules helped him out a bit also -- he's not averaging 35.4 ppg on 45% shooting under 2002 defensive rules, I'll tell you that much. You can subtract about 2-3 ppg from that average. That said, he's clearly an all-time great scorer who would put up numbers in any era. For that reason I don't want to criticize him too much, but some of the comments people make are ridiculous.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jamel Irief said:


> Go ahead?
> 
> I think it's common knowledge at this point that Kobe became a more dangerous scorer when he didn't have Shaq backing him up. Nobody was claiming Kobe was as good of a scorer as Jordan back when he played with Shaq.


Okay, so you are trying to only use a sample size of Kobe's career to judge him against Jordan? If thats the case people are now allowed to use a sample size of Jordans career to judge him against Kobe. Fair is fair right ? You notice how people like kflo only use the years Jordan's stats are not out of this world amazing to show how Kobe is comparable to Jordan right now? However since you guys are all using sample size merits of Kobes 10 year basketball career. I will use a few seasons of MJ's basketball career, and let's see how comparable Kobe is to MJ.

Some of Jordans seasons,

Note- Stats are accurate and not rounded up to try and bolster players over all stats.

37.1 PPG 5.2 RPG 4.6 APG 2.88 SPG 1.52 Blocks Per Game FG% 48%
32.6 PPG 8.0 RPG 8.0 APG 2.89 SPG .80 Blocks Per Game FG% 53%
33.6 PPG 6.9 RPG 6.3 APG 2.77 SPG .66 Blocks Per Game FG% 52%
35.0 PPG 5.5 RPG 5.9 APG 3.16 SPG 1.60 Blocks Per Game FG% 53%


----------



## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

LOL, you don't wanna mess with Jordan23Forever when it comes to MJ. I've seen him embarass anyone and everyone all over the net. Not only does he have a great understanding of the game and is old enough to have followed MJ's prime(something I know not even 1% of bb.net has, and with the exception of kflo, jordan23forever and myself NOBODY in this thread. Least of all 22-year-old Patchwork who routinely makes the most clueless comments when it comes to MJ that I've ever read). Back to Jordan23Forever, he's also a ****ing computer when it comes to MJ's statistics and those of his rivals/peers. An amazing fanatic if there ever was one.


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



23AJ said:


> Note- Stats are accurate and not rounded up to try and bolster players over all stats.
> 
> 37.1 PPG 5.2 RPG 4.6 APG 2.88 SPG 1.52 Blocks Per Game FG% *48.2%*
> 32.6 PPG 8.0 RPG 8.0 APG 2.89 SPG .80 Blocks Per Game FG% *53.8%*
> ...


I fixed the shooting percentages for you.


I also love how no one has responded to the post I made about Kobe's career FG% if we look only at 2-pointers, and also if we take Jordan's career 3FGA at Kobe's 3-pt%. 

Similarly, no one answered me about how this supposedly "greatest scorer ever; better than Jordan OMG!" (see: flyballa) couldn't even manage to shoot 47% in a *single season* despite having the most dominant player of the last 30 years drawing multiple defenders, despite not taking a huge # of 3's back then (the usual excuse), and despite no zone being played (the other usual excuse). Could it be that <gasp!> Kobe is just nowhere near as efficient as Jordan for various reasons? 

Nah, can't be that. I guess people will cling to whatever fanciful notions they will, even if it's contradicted by the evidence.


----------



## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



theflyballa said:


> Kobe is the greatest player ever. Just the worst supporting cast ever. *Put Jordan on this Laker team and they'll go 0-82*. Kobe should win MVP.


Can somebody take away this guys posting privileges?


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> I fixed the shooting percentages for you.
> 
> 
> I also love how no one has responded to the post I made about Kobe's career FG% if we look only at 2-pointers, and also if we take Jordan's career 3FGA at Kobe's 3-pt%.
> ...


They can't respond because you pwned them! Jordan is clearly better at basketball then Kobe. Anyone who really disagress with that notion is clearly biased or not informed of the incredible ability, skills, and domiance that was Michael Jordan the basketball player. The guy had it all, and then some. And Kobe Bryant is my favorite player, however I don't live in denial like some Kobe fans.


----------



## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



SPMJ said:


> LOL, you don't wanna mess with Jordan23Forever when it comes to MJ. I've seen him embarass anyone and everyone all over the net. Not only does he have a great understanding of the game and is old enough to have followed MJ's prime(something I know not even 1% of bb.net has, and with the exception of kflo, jordan23forever and myself NOBODY in this thread. Least of all 22-year-old Patchwork who routinely makes the most clueless comments when it comes to MJ that I've ever read). Back to Jordan23Forever, he's also a ****ing computer when it comes to MJ's statistics and those of his rivals/peers. An amazing fanatic if there ever was one.


That seems to be the problem, no one here REALLY remembers Jordan's greatness. That's sad...and shocking. It's too bad that more here never got to see him play as #23. Not many on here watched him give 150% effort against the Pistons three years in a row to be defeated(how many playoff series did the other team gameplan to TRIPLE team Kobe each time he got the ball?). The only time people on bbb.net saw him hit that shot over Ehlo was during a shoe commercial some 10+ years later.

Jordan was everything Kobe is not...and then some.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Card Trader said:


> That seems to be the problem, no one here REALLY remembers Jordan's greatness. That's sad...and shocking. It's too bad that more here never got to see him play as #23. Not many on here watched him give 150% effort against the Pistons three years in a row to be defeated(how many playoff series did the other team gameplan to TRIPLE team Kobe each time he got the ball?). The only time people on bbb.net saw him hit that shot over Ehlo was during a shoe commercial some 10+ years later.
> 
> Jordan was everything Kobe is not...and then some.


Agreed,

Let them remember the GOAT!

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----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

From a viewing perspective - and somebody lucky enough to see both play - there hasn't been anyone i've seen since Jordan that could seemingly dominate a game on both ends of the court for an entire game. Kobe can dominate like Jordan for periods but Jordan could dominate an entire game. I remember times watching Jordan when I was shocked when he missed or shocked when he didn't make the big defensive play. I don't get the same feelings watching Kobe - only in certain moments.

I'd say Kobe is definitely the closest thing to Jordan but there is something lacking there. IMO Kobe has a problem channeling his competitiveness at times into productive basketball.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Can we all agree that Jordan is the basketball god, he is perfect, Jordan makes no mistakes,everything Jordan did was perfect, no one can be compared to Jordan. If it wasn't for the rules, referees, opponent, small rims, bigger balls, Jordan would have averaged 100 points per game on 100% shooting.
Infact Jordan was the one who invented basketball. Basketball didn't exist before Jordan, just like golf didn't exist before Jack Nicklaus and Tennis didn't exist before Sampras.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Theonee said:


> Can we all agree that Jordan is the basketball god, he is perfect, Jordan makes no mistakes,everything Jordan did was perfect, no one can be compared to Jordan. If it wasn't for the rules, referees, opponent, small rims, bigger balls, Jordan would have averaged 100 points per game on 100% shooting.
> Infact Jordan was the one who invented basketball. Basketball didn't exist before Jordan, just like golf didn't exist before Jack Nicklaus and Tennis didn't exist before Sampras.


No, but anyone that's not living in denail should be able to reach the conclusion that Jordan is a much better basketball player then that of Kobe Bryant. And thats who we were comparing. However another attempt at a bitter Lakers/Bryant fan trying to slight MJ for being awesome at basketball. Congrats to you! Bryant is the best in the game right now, but may not even be top 10 in the game ever at this point in his career, where as Jordan is the GOAT IMO, and easily arguably the GOAT with another guy named Wilt.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



23AJ said:


> No, but anyone that's not living in denail should be able to reach the conclusion that Jordan is a much better basketball player then that of Kobe Bryant. And thats who we were comparing. However another attempt at a bitter Lakers/Bryant fan trying to slight MJ for being awesome at basketball. Congrats to you! Bryant is the best in the game right now, but may not even be top 10 in the game ever at this point in his career, where as Jordan is the GOAT IMO, and easily arguably the GOAT with another guy named Wilt.


I have always said and rightfully so that Jordan is much better player than Kobe, you can check my post, but that doesn't mean Jordan fans should discredit what Kobe does. That also doesn't mean that no one can be compared to Jordan. I was a Jordan fan myself, and when someone says Kobe is better than Jordan or is equal to Jordan, I think either that person is crazy or has never seen Jordan play.
Having said that,they are two different players playing in different eras, just like Wilt and Jordan are two different players who played in different eras.
The only fair comparison would be comparing Jordan to players of his era and Kobe to players of his era.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Right. That's why he took more shots than Shaq for 4 of their 5 postseasons together since 2000. In fact, he averaged 26.4 FGA/gm in the '03 postseason, yet didn't even crack 40 points _once_. Please...
> 
> For all the talk of Kobe's playoff heroics, he hasn't done much in that regard. Sorry, but that's a huge part of the game, and a huge part of one's legacy. Guys like Jerry West, Bird, Hakeem, and Jordan built their legend in the postseason, not performing trivial scoring feats against sub-.400 teams in meaningless regular season games. Let's see him do his thing against elite teams, not bottom-feeders like he usually does.
> 
> I also like how you insisted that Jordan only has longevity-related scoring records/accomplishments over Kobe, but now all the qualifications come when it's clear that there's a yawning gulf between them.


Without even looking it up, I'm sure Kobe averaged more shot attempts than Shaq in those regular seasons as well. However again Kobe wasn't unleashed as the scorer he is until Shaq left down. In fact his first 40 point month came when Shaq was injured.

The Lakers don't even sniff one championship without Kobe, and that's pretty much undebatable. Not just from scoring, but you forget that he was THE ONLY playmaker on that team. On top of that he was the only athletic wing they had to check perimeter players outside of Devean George. Kobe didn't have Pippen to help him out there. So while he wasn't averaging 35 points or whatever, he had other responsibilities. Obviously his role is different now, he has tons of playmakers and athletes playing alongside him.... but no finishers. 



> I also like how you insisted that Jordan only has longevity-related scoring records/accomplishments over Kobe, but now all the qualifications come when it's clear that there's a yawning gulf between them.


Please, you can't not look at your list and not notice they are all playoff accomplishments. I would of said the same thing if you posted how Jordan shattered rookie records or something. Most of the stuff you listed is stuff Kobe does with ease now, he just doesn't have the stage yet.



> The only way in which the two are comparable scoring-wise <b>are volume of points and scoring-related skills </b>(midrange game, footwork, shooting etc.). Note I said comparable, not equal. When you look past that -- at things like efficiency, consistency of production (which is important to a contending team; i.e., a consistent 30-35 per game on great efficiency is better than 40 one game on good efficiency and 20 the next on 7-25 FG), and basketball IQ/court awareness -- it becomes clear that Kobe is not as good as Jordan as a scorer. He also had a fair advantage in athleticism.


I agree with everything said here. However all I compared were the points in bold anyways. Kobe is more capable of putting points on the board than any player not named Wilt. 



> The new rules helped him out a bit also -- he's not averaging 35.4 ppg on 45% shooting under 2002 defensive rules, I'll tell you that much. You can subtract about 2-3 ppg from that average. That said, he's clearly an all-time great scorer who would put up numbers in any era. For that reason I don't want to criticize him too much, but some of the comments people make are ridiculous.


If you really want to compare era's, then the pre-93 Jordan stats are skewed to the free wheeling, no advanced scouting 80's where people launched jumpers 5 seconds into the clock and 220 pound centers were the norm.



SPMJ said:


> LOL, you don't wanna mess with Jordan23Forever when it comes to MJ. I've seen him embarass anyone and everyone all over the net. Not only does he have a great understanding of the game and is old enough to have followed MJ's prime(something I know not even 1% of bb.net has, and with the exception of kflo, jordan23forever and myself NOBODY in this thread. Least of all 22-year-old Patchwork who routinely makes the most clueless comments when it comes to MJ that I've ever read). Back to Jordan23Forever, he's also a ****ing computer when it comes to MJ's statistics and those of his rivals/peers. An amazing fanatic if there ever was one.


You want to contribute outside of telling Jordan23 how great he is? Funny because you were challenged earlier in this thread. 

How old are you? 20? You want to act like you are the only one old enough to watch Jordan in his "prime"? :laugh:


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> No, it isn't. Basketball IQ/court awareness is the biggest difference; one of the manifestations of this is shot selection, but there are others (e.g., knowing when to be aggressive/passive on the court, controlling tempo etc.). Even die-hard Kobe fans on another site noted that themselves, without me prompting them.


You can chalk it up to coincedence that when Jordan had a Kobe-like supporting cast, he had the same ball hog reputation. The Jordan IQ and "shot selection" nostalgia is pretty sickening around here. Jordan shot 27 times per game too for a season, and he was a ballhog for it. 

It's easy to tone that down when you have a great supporting cast to help you out. 



Jordan23Forever said:


> But hey, if you want to believe that the only differences between them are relatively minor physical ones, be my guest. Most of us who watched both in their prime would beg to differ.


Except that they weren't minor, they were major physical differences. Their mentality was nearly identical.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jamel Irief said:


> You want to contribute outside of telling Jordan23 how great he is? Funny because you were challenged earlier in this thread.


SPMJ actually admits to _hating_ Kobe Bryant, someone he has never met or interacted with. You could say anything negative about Kobe and he'll be your cheerleader and best friend for a day. Take his Kobe rants with a grain of salt, everyone else does.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Sir Patchwork said:


> SPMJ actually admits to _hating_ Kobe Bryant, someone he has never met or interacted with. You could say anything negative about Kobe and he'll be your cheerleader and best friend for a day. Take his Kobe rants with a grain of salt, everyone else does.


Oh I know all about him... I think it's funny he has yet to change his signature and it's been almost three years.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> I fixed the shooting percentages for you.
> 
> 
> I also love how no one has responded to the post I made about Kobe's career FG% if we look only at 2-pointers, and also if we take Jordan's career 3FGA at Kobe's 3-pt%.
> ...


again, kobe's efficiency rank, this year, is comparable to or better than jordan for every year from 1992 on. what is often considered his absolute peak (hey, he learned how to win!). 

jordan scored more efficiently on 2 pointers. yes. and of course, he was phenomenal. 

and again, putting up a fg% bar is meaninless. and kobe's role within the lakers with shaq didn't necessarily make it easier for him to score more efficiently, as he needed to play inside out and facilitate the offense. again, he did unprecedented things as a g/wing with a dominant big man.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> I fixed the shooting percentages for you.
> 
> 
> I also love how no one has responded to the post I made about Kobe's career FG% if we look only at 2-pointers, and also if we take Jordan's career 3FGA at Kobe's 3-pt%.
> ...


again, kobe's efficiency rank, this year, is comparable to or better than jordan for every year from 1992 on. what is often considered his absolute peak (hey, he learned how to win!). 

jordan scored more efficiently on 2 pointers. yes. and of course, he was phenomenal. 

and again, putting up a fg% bar is meaninless. and kobe's role within the lakers with shaq didn't necessarily make it easier for him to score more efficiently, as he needed to play inside out and facilitate the offense. again, he did unprecedented things as a g/wing with a dominant big man.


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Theonee said:


> I have always said and rightfully so that Jordan is much better player than Kobe, you can check my post, but that doesn't mean Jordan fans should discredit what Kobe does.


Find me someone in this thread who's discredited what Kobe's done. If anything, the opposite is true -- Kobe fans trying to discredit Jordan.



> That also doesn't mean that no one can be compared to Jordan.


Stylistically? Of course not (especially since Kobe ripped his entire game off). Even scoring-wise is okay, since Kobe's an all-time great scorer (though not Jordan's equal imo). But to compare him favorably as a player to Jordan? That's silly imo.



> Having said that,they are two different players playing in different eras, just like Wilt and Jordan are two different players who played in different eras.


Wilt's prime and Jordan's prime were about 25 years apart. Kobe's prime and Jordan's prime are about 10 years apart, and Jordan was considered the best player in the game in 1998, just 4-5 years before Kobe was considered a top 5 player in the league. Jordan also played (at an advanced age) in 2002 and 2003, and performed very well, considering. So these situations are not exactly the same thing. We can extrapolate performance to this era much more easily for Jordan than we can for Wilt, considering that he played against most of the same players playing today.




> The only fair comparison would be comparing Jordan to players of his era and Kobe to players of his era.


I actually agree, but Kobe fans don't like to do that either, because the gap in dominance relative to their respective peers is enormous. So what else can we do?




Sir Patchwork said:


> You can chalk it up to coincedence that when Jordan had a Kobe-like supporting cast, he had the same ball hog reputation. The Jordan IQ and "shot selection" nostalgia is pretty sickening around here. Jordan shot 27 times per game too for a season, and he was a ballhog for it.
> 
> It's easy to tone that down when you have a great supporting cast to help you out.


No question he was considered a ball-hog for a couple of years ('86-'87; by '88 and '89 that had died down). And no question that a poorer team necessitates a greater amount of shots being taken by its star player. But when I was referring to basketball IQ/court awareness, realize that that has nothing to do with how many or how few shots a player takes -- it's something you can see in watching them. Kobe didn't exhibit Jordan's bball IQ/court awareness when he was taking 17 shots/gm, when he was taking 22 shots/gm, or the last couple of years when he's taken 27+ shots per game.

They're simply very different in that regard. That you can't see it says more about your basketball acumen than about the existence of said difference.




> Except that they weren't minor, they were major physical differences. Their mentality was nearly identical.


Jordan's athletic advantages were fairly sizeable, but mostly centered around quickness/explosiveness (which is very important in basketball). Jordan was also a slightly better leaper (especially off one foot). He had better reflexes. Kobe's body control and agility are comparable.

That said, it's certainly not the biggest difference between the two of them -- their basketball IQ/court sense is. And that's mental/instinctual. Kobe's "mentality" is similar to Jordan's insofar as he's an aggressive player who wants to win at all costs, and who has a tremendous work ethic. But the rest of the mental/insinctual part of the game Jordan has all over him. It's pretty apparent when you watch the two of them play.

Go watch the videos I posted in the NBA History forum if you're unsure.




Jamel Irief said:


> Without even looking it up, I'm sure Kobe averaged more shot attempts than Shaq in those regular seasons as well. However again Kobe wasn't unleashed as the scorer he is until Shaq left down. In fact his first 40 point month came when Shaq was injured.


What does that have to do with him gunning in the 2003 playoffs and not even cracking 40 points _once_?

And funny you should mention the stretch that year when Shaq was injured; here are Kobe's numbers in the 15 games Shaq missed that year, and with Shaq in:

*Without Shaq:* 32.4 ppg on 43% shooting (~27 FGA/gm)

*With Shaq:* 29.4 ppg on 46.5% shooting (~22.5 FGA/gm)


You can see that he was significantly more efficient with Shaq. He also gunned to extend that 40-point streak in the last couple of games, to the point where he was embarrassing himself -- it was that obvious.




> The Lakers don't even sniff one championship without Kobe, and that's pretty much undebatable.


Really? So you couldn't have plugged in several other players on that 2000 team and win a championship? Kobe averaged 22/6/5 that season and 21/5/4 those playoffs -- yeah, that's irreplaceable. 




> On top of that he was the only athletic wing they had to check perimeter players outside of Devean George. Kobe didn't have Pippen to help him out there.


I guess that's why Phil Jackson made it a point to put Rick Fox or George on most difficult wing assignments those years. 


What SG's did Kobe face in the playoffs? Jalen Rose and an even older Reggie Miller, who both badly outplayed him? A 30 year old Steve Smith? A hobbled Penny Hardaway (who, incidentally, abused Kobe)? A past-prime Nick Anderson? A 12 ppg Doug Christie? A 10 ppg Aaron McKie and Eric Snow? An 11 ppg Ruben Patterson? One-dimensional 7 ppg Bruce Bowen? A 12 ppg Kerry Kittles? A 14 ppg defenseless Wally Szczerbiak? A past-prime Kendall Gill? 13 ppg journeyman Stephen Jackson? The 15 ppg, 33 year old Jim Jackson? The 16 ppg Cuttino Mobley? The 13 ppg Manu Ginobili? A 17 ppg Rip Hamilton? A 14.7 ppg Raja Bell? 


Yeah, I'm sure that those incredibly difficult defensive assignments were what prevented Kobe from performing optimally at the offensive end. 




> Most of the stuff you listed is stuff Kobe does with ease now, he just doesn't have the stage yet.


Right, with "ease." Against sub-.400 teams. Again, call me when he does something noteworthy in the postseason, against good teams.

And when he doesn't, and falls well short of the illustrious playoff career of, say, Jordan or West, I'm sure the excuse will be that he "could have" done it, but he was trying to play a different style.



> If you really want to compare era's, then the pre-93 Jordan stats are skewed to the free wheeling, no advanced scouting 80's where people launched jumpers 5 seconds into the clock and 220 pound centers were the norm.


League average FG% was only 1.6% higher in 1993 than today. The mid-80's I'll grant you was more free-wheeling, but Jordan proved that he could put up numbers with great efficiency in any era, no matter the defense played.

LOL @ 220 pound centers -- you mean centers who actually, you know, _blocked shots_ unlike today where they're either disinclined to or they try to draw charges? Yeah...

Jordan was taking it in strong against Eaton, Bol, Hakeem, DRob, Ewing, Mutombo, and others. Kobe's taking it in strong against Erika Dampier, Kurt Thomas, and Chris Kaveman.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> What SG's did Kobe face in the playoffs? Jalen Rose and an even older Reggie Miller, who both badly outplayed him? A 30 year old Steve Smith? A hobbled Penny Hardaway (who, incidentally, abused Kobe)? A past-prime Nick Anderson? A 12 ppg Doug Christie? A 10 ppg Aaron McKie and Eric Snow? An 11 ppg Ruben Patterson? One-dimensional 7 ppg Bruce Bowen? A 12 ppg Kerry Kittles? A 14 ppg defenseless Wally Szczerbiak? A past-prime Kendall Gill? 13 ppg journeyman Stephen Jackson? The 15 ppg, 33 year old Jim Jackson? The 16 ppg Cuttino Mobley? The 13 ppg Manu Ginobili? *A 17 ppg Rip Hamilton?* A 14.7 ppg Raja Bell?
> 
> 
> Yeah, I'm sure that those incredibly difficult defensive assignments were what prevented Kobe from performing optimally at the offensive end.


Checking Rip Hamilton for an entire series will make *anyone *tired.


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Brandname said:


> Checking Rip Hamilton for an entire series will make *anyone *tired.


22.6 ppg on 37.5% shooting in the '04 Finals -- I'd say Kobe was tired.  

Nice of you to focus on one out of over a dozen examples, however. The point was that Kobe's defensive assignments aren't a great excuse for why he wasn't lighting it up in the playoffs, as Jamel Irief implied.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> 22.6 ppg on 37.5% shooting in the '04 Finals -- I'd say Kobe was tired.
> 
> Nice of you to focus on one out of over a dozen examples, however. The point was that Kobe's defensive assignments aren't a great excuse for why he wasn't lighting it up in the playoffs, as Jamel Irief implied.


My point wasn't to invalidate your post with one counterexample.

It was just an example of a case in which the opponent's ppg average doesn't indicate how tiring it is to guard him. Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Brandname said:


> My point wasn't to invalidate your post with one counterexample.
> 
> It was just an example of a case in which the opponent's ppg average doesn't indicate how tiring it is to guard him. Nothing more, nothing less.


Fair enough.  You have to admit that it's an extreme example, though.


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



kflo said:


> again, kobe's efficiency rank, this year, is comparable to or better than jordan for every year from 1992 on. what is often considered his absolute peak (hey, he learned how to win!).


Except it's not, and you're only using one metric -- a metric which you apparently champion to the exclusion of all else -- at that. 

Jordan used fewer possessions to get his points (and at a higher ppg as well); you chose to ignore this because it doesn't support your assertion. The only reason TS% is comparable (and at the same age, Jordan has a decided advantage there), and why you like to use it, is because of the ludicrous # of free throws awarded today. Unless you're trying to tell me that Kobe is more aggressive than post-'88 Jordan, which would be a joke.




> jordan scored more efficiently on 2 pointers. yes. and of course, he was phenomenal.


He was _significantly_ more efficient even if we assume *only* two-pointers for Kobe, or only 2's with a reduced # of 3's. Or did you not see my calculations earlier? 




> and again, putting up a fg% bar is meaninless. and kobe's role within the lakers with shaq didn't necessarily make it easier for him to score more efficiently, as he needed to play inside out and facilitate the offense.


So you're trying to tell me that he *didn't* have a clear path to the basket every time he drove since the interior defenders would never leave Shaq? Guess I actually wasn't watching the Laker games I thought I was watching, then.  And if Kobe didn't get into the paint as much as he should have, then that goes back to athleticism and basketball IQ/court awareness.

Kobe hardly ever saw a double-team pre-2004 because of Shaq. I'd say that should help his efficiency a bit as compared to a guy like Jordan, who saw them his entire career. He's getting a taste of that the last few years.




> again, he did unprecedented things as a g/wing with a dominant big man.


Good for him. That alone doesn't mean much, however. What he's done the last 3 years and for the rest of his career is what will really define him.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> What does that have to do with him gunning in the 2003 playoffs and not even cracking 40 points _once_?
> 
> And funny you should mention the stretch that year when Shaq was injured; here are Kobe's numbers in the 15 games Shaq missed that year, and with Shaq in:
> 
> ...


My whole point is the comparison to Kobe as a scorer with Shaq versus now isn't valid since Kobe had a completely different role. You tried to discredit that by saying he attempted more shots than Shaq. Again you keep wanting to go to his scoring numbers from that era but I never argued that it was the same scorer we see today.



> Really? So you couldn't have plugged in several other players on that 2000 team and win a championship? Kobe averaged 22/6/5 that season and 21/5/4 those playoffs -- yeah, that's irreplaceable.


Like who exactly? Michael Finley? Can he be the primary ball handler? Remember Derek Fisher, Brian Shaw and Harper were the other guards. Could Allen Iverson guard Steve Smith and Bonzi Wells? Funny you made that comment then you go on to say all the wing players back then sucked. 



> I guess that's why Phil Jackson made it a point to put Rick Fox or George on most difficult wing assignments those years.


No he didn't. In 2000 George wasn't even in the rotation yet. That year in the playoffs. Kobe primarily guarded Anderson (who did suck, but was their top wing option), Kidd in the next round, Smith/Wells in the conference finals and then Reggie in the finals (Kobe had an ankle injury and Bird wasn't doubling Shaq).



> What SG's did Kobe face in the playoffs? Jalen Rose and an even older Reggie Miller, who both badly outplayed him? A 30 year old Steve Smith? A hobbled Penny Hardaway (who, incidentally, abused Kobe)? A past-prime Nick Anderson? A 12 ppg Doug Christie? A 10 ppg Aaron McKie and Eric Snow? An 11 ppg Ruben Patterson? One-dimensional 7 ppg Bruce Bowen? A 12 ppg Kerry Kittles? A 14 ppg defenseless Wally Szczerbiak? A past-prime Kendall Gill? 13 ppg journeyman Stephen Jackson? The 15 ppg, 33 year old Jim Jackson? The 16 ppg Cuttino Mobley? The 13 ppg Manu Ginobili? A 17 ppg Rip Hamilton? A 14.7 ppg Raja Bell?
> 
> Yeah, I'm sure that those incredibly difficult defensive assignments were what prevented Kobe from performing optimally at the offensive end.


LOL, the first time Lakers faced wolves Sczerbiak averaged 17 ppg that year and was an all-star. Penny was arguably a top 3 SG in 2000 behind Finley and... Kobe. On top of that Harper guarded Penny. The entire point again was the Kobe and George (who didn't play in 2000) were the only athletic defenders and Kobe was the only NBA pg caliber ball handler and playmaker. I didn't bring this up to "make excuses" about his scoring, I brought this up because you are acting like he was just a role player on those teams. I might actually argue that he was more valuable for his playmaking than scoring, considering Derek Fisher was incapable of doing anything other than flat footed 3's and dribbling in a straight line. Unlike with Jordan, who had Pippen and then Kukoc to handle all the playmaking/ball handling and Pippen who always guarded the best offensive player, he was needed the most as a pure scorer. 

By the way, I would love to see what the stats are on game winners/tiers in the playoffs between Kobe and Jordan. 



> Right, with "ease." Against sub-.400 teams. Again, call me when he does something noteworthy in the postseason, against good teams.


I will when he has a chance, but he hasn't yet. Which is what I said in the first place.



> And when he doesn't, and falls well short of the illustrious playoff career of, say, Jordan or West, I'm sure the excuse will be that he "could have" done it, but he was trying to play a different style.


Unless the roster changes or players drastically step their offensive game up then no. However if that happens the Lakers will be winning again and could care less about Kobe's scoring.



> League average FG% was only 1.6% higher in 1993 than today. The mid-80's I'll grant you was more free-wheeling, but Jordan proved that he could put up numbers with great efficiency in any era, no matter the defense played.


Yes 1993 is more comparable than today, but what about 2002? You were the one that said Kobe wouldn't be doing what he is doing in 2002, I believe he would do it in 1993 though.

BTW Jordan didn't put up numbers with great efficiency in 2002. I bet prime Jordan would of seen a huge drop in his efficiency in 2002 as well.


> LOL @ 220 pound centers -- you mean centers who actually, you know, _blocked shots_ unlike today where they're either disinclined to or they try to draw charges? Yeah...
> 
> Jordan was taking it in strong against Eaton, Bol, Hakeem, DRob, Ewing, Mutombo, and others. Kobe's taking it in strong against Erika Dampier, Kurt Thomas, and Chris Kaveman.


Don't forget Kevin Duckworth, Sam "lead feet" Perkins, Bill Laimbeer, Mark West, Greg Ostertagg or the immortal Jim McIlvaine. I wonder how Jordan averaged 31 in the playoffs against those shot blockers. They certainly aren't Marcus Camby, Dalembert or Chandler. 

Even the greatest shot blocker only blocks a shot 4 times a game. Defenders overall are bigger, stronger, and more prepared than they were in the 80's.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

jordan had a SIGNIFICANT drop in his fta/fga himself starting in 1990. kobe's fta/fga relative to league fta/fga is well higher than jordan's was after his drop, but still less than jordan's peak in that category. kobe's 22nd in the league, and more than 1/2 of those ahead of him are frontcourt players. back in jordan's day, there were a bunch of perimeter players who ranked above him as well. and ts% is a possession adjusted scoring efficiency measure. i like to use it because it's the best measure. 

and of course he didn't always have a clear path to the basket when he drove with shaq. 

on bball iq:

"I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it. I never asked Michael to be a playmaker. That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that."


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> But when I was referring to basketball IQ/court awareness, realize that that has nothing to do with how many or how few shots a player takes -- it's something you can see in watching them.


It's something _you_ see, because you look for it. Jordan being your favorite, Kobe being someone you dislike. I would say you're in a terrible position to make unbias judgements about such subjective things. Me being a Bulls fan and a fan of Jordan, but also a fan of Kobe, and it's easy to see that their IQ differences have everything to do with their environment. 



Jordan23Forever said:


> They're simply very different in that regard. That you can't see it says more about your basketball acumen than about the existence of said difference.


Yep, me and Phil Jackson man, a couple of hacks who don't know the game. 

Those "you must not know the game if you disagree with me" arguments are pretty cool dude. Thought you should know. You should learn to handle disagreement better.


----------



## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

One thing that people forget when comparing the 80's or 90's to today's game is that we are currently in the flopping era. It is absolutely more difficult to attack the basket and post up defenders because they are constantly trying to beat you to a spot and flop backwards. Mismatches today are nothing what they were 10-15 years ago. If you had Steve Blake and Allen Iverson or Head and Lucas in your backcourt, you would be in big trouble. Because of zone rules and flopping, that is only an occasional problem for teams who put two smaller guards out on the court. 

Now, we only have a few big men who would rather get in position and try to block the shot, Zo being one of the best. Most want to get outside the circle and dive, and the list of big men with this preference is a long one. 

Even guys like Wade and Lebron who are the best at using their athleticism to blow by defenders and get to the hoop still draw their share of offensive fouls. 

The game was more pure when you could attack the hoop without caution, without worrying about getting cut off on the way there by a Raja Bell or Devin Harris, or getting undercut by Jason Collins or Anderson Varejao at the hoop.

Big difference nobody talks about.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



> Find me someone in this thread who's discredited what Kobe's done. If anything, the opposite is true -- Kobe fans trying to discredit Jordan.


For starters, check the thread starter and start reading.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



bballlife said:


> One thing that people forget when comparing the 80's or 90's to today's game is that we are currently in the flopping era. It is absolutely more difficult to attack the basket and post up defenders because they are constantly trying to beat you to a spot and flop backwards. Mismatches today are nothing what they were 10-15 years ago. If you had Steve Blake and Allen Iverson or Head and Lucas in your backcourt, you would be in big trouble. Because of zone rules and flopping, that is only an occasional problem for teams who put two smaller guards out on the court.
> 
> Now, we only have a few big men who would rather get in position and try to block the shot, Zo being one of the best. Most want to get outside the circle and dive, and the list of big men with this preference is a long one.
> 
> ...


Really good point, the Lakers game against the Phoenix suns, last Sunday was unbearable to watch. I think they called at least 7 offensive fouls on the Laker players.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

This thread is funny.

Somehow, by reading it, i'm almost positve Adrian Dantley was a much better offensive player than Michael Jordan...


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jamel Irief said:


> Like who exactly? Michael Finley? Can he be the primary ball handler?


Vince Carter. Grant Hill. Payton. Probably Iverson, too.



> Remember Derek Fisher, Brian Shaw and Harper were the other guards. Could Allen Iverson guard Steve Smith and Bonzi Wells? Funny you made that comment then you go on to say all the wing players back then sucked.


Who said all the wing players sucked? All I noted was that Kobe didn't face any incredibly tough defensive assignments (which might hinder his offensive performance) in the *postseason*. There were great wings -- Carter, TMac, Pierce, Allen etc. -- but Kobe didn't face them in the playoffs. And it was the playoff we were talking about, and his playoff scoring you were trying to defend.





> No he didn't. In 2000 George wasn't even in the rotation yet. That year in the playoffs.


I wasn't talking about just 2000, but '00-'03 in general. We were talking about Kobe's entire postseason career since 2000 (and how it pales in comparison to Jordan's), not just 2000.




> LOL, the first time Lakers faced wolves Sczerbiak averaged 17 ppg that year and was an all-star.


A 17 ppg all-star. He didn't even guard him most of the time; he split time between him, Peeler, and Gill.



> Penny was arguably a top 3 SG in 2000 behind Finley and... Kobe.


Yet a shadow of his former self.



> On top of that Harper guarded Penny.


Because Kobe was getting roasted when he tried. This is well-documented.




> Kobe was the only NBA pg caliber ball handler and playmaker.


Kobe is far from an "NBA PG caliber ball handler." The only time in his career when he was actually trying to play that ball-dominant quasi-PG role (a la Jordan in '89 or Lebron/Wade today), he averaged 6.7 assists and an appalling 4.6 TO's (a record TO pace and a poor 1.46:1 Assist:TO ratio) through the first 33 games of the '05 season (to say nothing of his abysmal 40.5% shooting during that stretch). He also led the league in getting the ball stolen from him that season.

Kobe's a great ballhandler for a SG, especially in terms of "And-1" style stuff (fundamentally he could use work in terms of protecting the ball against pressure), but let's not get carried away by saying stuff like "he's an NBA PG calibver ball handler." He's not.



> I didn't bring this up to "make excuses" about his scoring, I brought this up because you are acting like he was just a role player on those teams.


I never said nor implied that. He certainly wasn't -- he was an indispensable part of that team. But that doesn't change the fact that his playoff exploits pale in comparison to Jordan's.




> I might actually argue that he was more valuable for his playmaking than scoring, considering Derek Fisher was incapable of doing anything other than flat footed 3's and dribbling in a straight line. Unlike with Jordan, who had Pippen and then Kukoc to handle all the playmaking/ball handling and Pippen who always guarded the best offensive player, he was needed the most as a pure scorer.


You're acting as if Kobe put up monstrous assist numbers during the three-peat, either regular or postseason. Yeah, Pippen relieved Jordan of some of his ballhandling and playmaking duties from '91-'93, but even then Jordan was a better playmaker than Kobe.

Jordan was placed in a PG role by DOug Collins during the final 26 games of the 1989 regular season. He averaged 29.6 pts/9.0 reb/10.5 assists/52.2% FG and 3.6 TO's during that stretch, for an A:TO ratio of 2.9:1, which was *twice* as good as Kobe's when placed in the same role.


And you're kidding yourself if you think that Pippen "always guarded the best offensive player." That wasn't even true during the second three-peat, much less the first. Pippen almost exclusively guarded SF's, with three exceptions that I'm aware of (and I have nearly 300 Bulls games from '87-'98 on tape and DVD):


-- Magic in the '91 Finals, whom he guarded about 50% of the time along with Jordan

-- Penny Hardaway in the '96 ECF, whom he guarded about 85% of the time

-- Mark Jackson in the '98 ECF


Those were the only times when Pippen didn't take a small forward, and in one of those cases the player wasn't "the best offensive player" on the other team anyway. Who took Hawkins, Sprewell, Houston, Ricky Pierce, Chris Mullin, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller, Clyde Drexler, Dale Ellis, Isiah Thomas (at times), Joe Dumars, Bernard King, Kevin Johnson (at times), Mark Price (at times), Ron Harper, Gary Payton (at times), Rolondo Blackman, Reggie Lewis, and many more? All of these guys were the best offensive players on their respective teams (and where they weren't, they were the best perimeter player when the best player was a PF/C). 


Pippen didn't guard these guys, Jordan did. Like I said, Pippen almost exclusively guarded SF's; the rare exceptions are noted above.




> By the way, I would love to see what the stats are on game winners/tiers in the playoffs between Kobe and Jordan.


Wait, wait -- you actually think that Kobe has nearly as many playoff game-winning/tying shots as Jordan does? Surely you're joking...




> I will when he has a chance, but he hasn't yet. Which is what I said in the first place.


He'll have a chance, but I don't think he will. If he never does, what will you say then? More excuses ("he could have" etc.)?




> Unless the roster changes or players drastically step their offensive game up then no. However if that happens the Lakers will be winning again and could care less about Kobe's scoring.


Here's an indisputable fact: Kobe will never win championships while carrying a team the way Jordan did. He can certainly win a championship as the best player on his team, but if he does so, he'll be averaging (for instance) 28.7/5.5/5.3/47% in the postseason, not 34/6.4/6.7/51% like Jordan did during the first three-peat. He won't have to carry whatever team he ends up with to the degree that Jordan did. 

I'd bet my life on that, actually.




> Yes 1993 is more comparable than today, but what about 2002? You were the one that said Kobe wouldn't be doing what he is doing in 2002, I believe he would do it in 1993 though.


Not really. Jordan averaged 32.6 ppg on 49.5% shooting in '93. Kobe would put up numbers like either 32 ppg on 46.5-47.5% shooting or 30 ppg on 47-48.5% shooting. He's just not as good a scorer as Jordan. When he gets scorching hot he's the best scorer ever, but those games aren't every game. That's how Kobe would fare in 1993 imo -- he'd put up comparable (but not equal or better) numbers. That's not an insult to Kobe -- it's only perceived as such by those who'd like to believe that the two of them are equals.



> BTW Jordan didn't put up numbers with great efficiency in 2002. I bet prime Jordan would of seen a huge drop in his efficiency in 2002 as well.


No question that he wouldn't be shooting 54% like he did in the late 80's in 2002. But he'd still be 5-6.5% above league average, which would put him around 50-51%. Jordan at age 39-40 didn't have great efficiency, you're right -- but he was also 39-40 years old. Yet he had flashes and spurts which gave us a glimpse of what he could have done had he had the stamina and athleticism he used to. 

He scored 40+ points in 2002 more times than all but 3 players (Shaq, TMac, and AI). He had back-to-back games of 40+ (including 45/51 in consecutive games) twice. He was averaging 25.2 pts/6.3 reb/5.2 ast/43.4% FG until he hurt his knee. His per 40 numbers were better than any other wing player's save for TMac. At age 39.

So yeah, suggesting that he'd somehow be limited in 2002 if he were, say, 25-28 years old is a *big* stretch. Never mind today, where the new rules make it a feast for quick perimeter players. 




> Don't forget Kevin Duckworth, Sam "lead feet" Perkins, Bill Laimbeer, Mark West, Greg Ostertagg or the immortal Jim McIlvaine. I wonder how Jordan averaged 31 in the playoffs against those shot blockers. They certainly aren't Marcus Camby, Dalembert or Chandler.


So you're suggesting that there weren't more dominant shotblockers then as compared to now? And that the prevailing mentality wasn't to block shots rather than take charges like pansies? And that the excessive amount of foul calls today doesn't make big men think twice about going for blocks? Even the defensive 3 second call has had an impact on shotblocking/interior intimidation, since centers can't camp out in the lane anymore.




> Even the greatest shot blocker only blocks a shot 4 times a game.


And alter many more. And prevent many more shot attempts on top of that.



> Defenders overall are bigger, stronger, and more prepared than they were in the 80's.


Too bad Jordan played and dominated until '98, and even occasionally abused guys like Pierce, Marion, Tmac, KG, Jim Jackson, Kenyon Martin, Kidd, R.Jeff, Eddie Jones, Aaron McKie etc. when he was 39-40 years old in 2002 and 2003. 

Like I said, this isn't a Wilt-like situation. Jordan was the best player in the game a mere 9 years ago, and was an MVP candidate a mere 4 years ago. He played against most of the same players playing today. You're acting as though it's difficult to infer what his performance would be like despite these facts. Nobody is saying that he'd put up the same exact numbers he did back then. In some ways he'd be better (e.g., I think he'd average more steals/blocks because he'd no longer have to play a man, but could play an area instead), and in some he'd be worse (instead of shooting 53-54%, he'd be at 50.5-52% tops imo).


But it isn't difficult to reasonably infer these things.




kflo said:


> jordan had a SIGNIFICANT drop in his fta/fga himself starting in 1990. kobe's fta/fga relative to league fta/fga is well higher than jordan's was after his drop, but still less than jordan's peak in that category.


Yes, but Jordan's peak came from age 23-26. Why do you think that a Kobe Bryant who takes 80% jumpshots is getting to the line many more times than a visibly more aggressive Jordan? If 27-30 year old Jordan played today he'd be up in the 10.2-11.5 FTA range as well (instead of 7-8 FTA like he averaged), and his TS% -- the only statistic you like to employ -- would correspondingly increase.

Jordan's usage rate was as high in 1993 as Kobe's was last year, yet he only averaged 7.3 FTA/gm (as compared to Kobe's 10 FTA/gm) despite being visibly more aggressive. That's no coincidence.


Like I said, the only reason why TS% is even in the same ballpark (though, again, Jordan has a decided edge in TS% at the same age) is because of the ridiculous number of FT's doled out. Do yourself a favor and calculate Jordan's TS% in 1993 for 10.5 FTA, which is the minimum he'd be getting today based on his style of play in 1993. Then you'll see that it's not that close. The absurd # of FT's awarded is the only reason TS% is comparable, and that's why you focus on it to the exclusion of every other metric: FG%, eFG%, PPS, PPP (as I detailed earlier), ppfga, Ortg etc.



> on bball iq:
> 
> "I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it. I never asked Michael to be a playmaker. That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that."


Phil knew full well that Kobe was an egomaniac who, more than anything, needed praise and adulation. The above quote entirely misses the point (not least of which because Phil says that he never asked Jordan to play that sort of game, so you can't reasonably infer how he'd perform). And the point is that basketball IQ and court sense is something that is *instinctual and mental*; moreover, it is something that is perceptible. Most people who watch the following videos:

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=joleroke

...can see this with their own eyes. And it is, in fact, the largest difference between the two players.




Sir Patchwork said:


> It's something you see, because you look for it. Jordan being your favorite, Kobe being someone you dislike. I would say you're in a terrible position to make unbias judgements about such subjective things. Me being a Bulls fan and a fan of Jordan, but also a fan of Kobe, and it's easy to see that their IQ differences have everything to do with their environment.


Not at all, really. See above.

Again, Kobe has never, in any season or in any role, exhibited the basketball IQ and court awareness that Jordan did. Period. It's easily ascertained if one simply watches them. Heck, there are posters at another board I frequent who noted the same thing, and Kobe is their favorite player.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Like I said, this isn't a Wilt-like situation. Jordan was the best player in the game a mere 9 years ago, *and was an MVP candidate a mere 4 years ago.* He played against most of the same players playing today. You're acting as though it's difficult to infer what his performance would be like despite these facts. Nobody is saying that he'd put up the same exact numbers he did back then. In some ways he'd be better (e.g., I think he'd average more steals/blocks because he'd no longer have to play a man, but could play an area instead), and in some he'd be worse (instead of shooting 53-54%, he'd be at 50.5-52% tops imo).


Please define "MVP candidate".


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



PauloCatarino said:


> Please define "MVP candidate".


A top 4-5 MVP candidate. We've been through this. People have shown you several articles which stated as much; I have numerous telecasts from that season on tape where the commentators say as much. In fact, I've heard people say that he was a *leading* MVP candidate (on telecasts), but I didn't even use such strong language -- all I said was that he was an "MVP candidate." But apparently all that matter is your own personal belief, and the fact that he ended up hurting himself and watched his team slip, and ended up 13th in MVP voting at the end of the season after missing 22 games.


----------



## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



PauloCatarino said:


> Please define "MVP candidate".


As in being 2nd only to Jason Kidd in the MVP race at the AS break of 01-02. This is well known. The Wizards had ridiculously overachieved and MJ was one of only 2 players(T-Mac the other) to be averaging over 25 points, 6 rebs and 5 assists. This despite being 38-39 years old. 

It really cracks me up when people talk of MJ's era as if dinasours roamed the planet when he was dominating the league. The GOAT even as recently as '98 was the league's best player. Was easily a Top 10 player in the league at the age of 38/39 despite crappy knees and being away from the game for 3 1/2 years.

The talk of prime MJ not being able to duplicate his numbers in today's league is laughable. I'd say under the softer defensive rules starting 05-06 he'd be BETTER. More unguardable, at least.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> A top 4-5 MVP candidate.


Good grief.



> We've been through this.


No we haven't. I was arguing with Gilgamesh that Jordan shouldn't be considered a Top-5 MVP candidate *untill the All Star Break*. I stated my case that he was leading, to that ponit, the Wizards to a 45-37 finish, which wasn't very good, and there were at least 5 guys that, *untill that point*, were more deserving. And after i stated who and why, the thread went silent...



> People have shown you several articles which stated as much; I have numerous telecasts from that season on tape where the commentators say as much. In fact, I've heard people say that he was a *leading* MVP candidate (on telecasts), but I didn't even use such strong language -- all I said was that he was an "MVP candidate."


Again, people were using that argument to support Jordan being considered a Top-5 MVP contender *untill the All Star Break*. You said he was "Top 4-5 MVP candidate". If you were talking about "untill the AS break", please reactivate the thread. If you are talking about the whole season, then you are wrong.



> But apparently all that matter is your own personal belief, and the fact that he ended up hurting himself and watched his team slip, and ended up 13th in MVP voting at the end of the season after missing 22 games.


the team started sliping right after the AS break, wchi was like the 10th Febreuary or something. Jordan played in 7 more games following. The Wizards lost 6 of them.

Jordan played 60 games and ended up #13 in the voting. Curiously, Iverson played the same amout of games and finished #9. Webber played even less games (57) and finished... #7. And Shaq, with 67 games, finished #3. 

Yeah, it's my "own personal beliefs"...


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Yes, but Jordan's peak came from age 23-26. Why do you think that a Kobe Bryant who takes 80% jumpshots is getting to the line many more times than a visibly more aggressive Jordan? If 27-30 year old Jordan played today he'd be up in the 10.2-11.5 FTA range as well (instead of 7-8 FTA like he averaged), and his TS% -- the only statistic you like to employ -- would correspondingly increase.
> 
> Jordan's usage rate was as high in 1993 as Kobe's was last year, yet he only averaged 7.3 FTA/gm (as compared to Kobe's 10 FTA/gm) despite being visibly more aggressive. That's no coincidence.
> 
> ...


not sure why you're not following this. jordan changed how he attacked offensively and it resulted in a significant drop in his fta/fga relative to league avg. kobe currently gets to the line at a relative rate than jordan did during his lowered years. relative to league averages, relative to comparables at his position. jordan stopped going to the line as much. period. in '92, jordan was 70 in the league in fta/fga. and now you want to just make kobe and jordan equal here? on what basis?


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> A top 4-5 MVP candidate. We've been through this. People have shown you several articles which stated as much; I have numerous telecasts from that season on tape where the commentators say as much. In fact, I've heard people say that he was a leading MVP candidate (on telecasts), but I didn't even use such strong language -- all I said was that he was an "MVP candidate." But apparently all that matter is your own personal belief, and the fact that he ended up hurting himself and watched his team slip, and ended up 13th in MVP voting at the end of the season after missing 22 games.


These are probably the same idiots that call Jordan a top 5 NCAA player of all time act like he was the MVP of the 83 tarheels when James Worthy was. The media worships Jordan is about as objective as the poster SPMJ.



> Vince Carter. Grant Hill. Payton. Probably Iverson, too.


I will conceed Payton, but that's it. Carter and Hill had yet (and arguably still haven't) shown that they can handle the playoff pressure. Who knows if they step up in game 7 when Portland shut down Shaq. Who knows if they hit the game winner over Jason Kidd in game 2. Who knows if they beat the Pacers by themselves in overtime of game 4 when Shaq fouled out.

Iverson is just laughable. He would be a disaster playing for Phil. This isn't fantasy basketball. Hell I would of taken rookie Andre Miller over him just like Andre Miller is better today.



> I wasn't talking about just 2000, but '00-'03 in general. We were talking about Kobe's entire postseason career since 2000 (and how it pales in comparison to Jordan's), not just 2000.


Ok, in 00 and 01 George didn't play. The other 'athletes' alongside Kobe were Glen Rice, Ron Harper and Rick Fox. 



> A 17 ppg all-star. He didn't even guard him most of the time; he split time between him, Peeler, and Gill.


Your brought up Wally and selectively posted the numbers the year he came off the bench.



> (Penny was) Yet a shadow of his former self.


So? In 2002 Jordan was a shadow of his former self. In 2003 he still was when Kobe dropped 44 in the first half on him and his Wizards.



> Because Kobe was getting roasted when he tried. This is well-documented.


Why not bring up the player he guarded for the majority of the series? Probably the same reason misreprenseted Wally's stats.



> Kobe is far from an "NBA PG caliber ball handler." The only time in his career when he was actually trying to play that ball-dominant quasi-PG role (a la Jordan in '89 or Lebron/Wade today), he averaged 6.7 assists and an appalling 4.6 TO's (a record TO pace and a poor 1.46:1 Assist:TO ratio) through the first 33 games of the '05 season (to say nothing of his abysmal 40.5% shooting during that stretch). He also led the league in getting the ball stolen from him that season.


Is Derek Fisher a "NBA PG caliber ball handler?" Kobe played the quasi-PG role every game of his Laker career after Derek Harper retired until Payton got there. Even then Phil Jackson stated in his book that he handed over play-calling duties to Kobe in the playoffs. Well at least as "quasi-PG" as you can get in the triangle. Derek Fisher didn't handle the ball in the back court, Kobe did. Derek Fisher didn't attack the basket looking to create, Kobe did. 



> Kobe's a great ballhandler for a SG, especially in terms of "And-1" style stuff (fundamentally he could use work in terms of protecting the ball against pressure), but let's not get carried away by saying stuff like "he's an NBA PG calibver ball handler." He's not.


Again, the point was Kobe had other important roles besides scorer.



> You're acting as if Kobe put up monstrous assist numbers during the three-peat, either regular or postseason. Yeah, Pippen relieved Jordan of some of his ballhandling and playmaking duties from '91-'93, but even then Jordan was a better playmaker than Kobe.
> 
> Jordan was placed in a PG role by DOug Collins during the final 26 games of the 1989 regular season. He averaged 29.6 pts/9.0 reb/10.5 assists/52.2% FG and 3.6 TO's during that stretch, for an A:TO ratio of 2.9:1, which was *twice* as good as Kobe's when placed in the same role.


Save this stats stuff for kflo. When I say playmaker, I don't mean assists. Without Kobe the Lakers pray nobody pressures them in the backcourt and rely on the other team not fronting so they can make good entry passes to Shaq.



> And you're kidding yourself if you think that Pippen "always guarded the best offensive player." That wasn't even true during the second three-peat, much less the first. Pippen almost exclusively guarded SF's, with three exceptions that I'm aware of (and I have nearly 300 Bulls games from '87-'98 on tape and DVD):
> 
> 
> -- Magic in the '91 Finals, whom he guarded about 50% of the time along with Jordan
> ...


You probably are right, I guess my memory is too vivid of Jordan guarding Vlade Divac and Pippen disrupting the Pacers entire offense in 98.



> Wait, wait -- you actually think that Kobe has nearly as many playoff game-winning/tying shots as Jordan does? Surely you're joking...


I don't, I am just curious.



> He'll have a chance, but I don't think he will. If he never does, what will you say then? More excuses ("he could have" etc.)?


Again, you want to talk about excuses, but not at one point in this thread did I argue that the Kobe-Shaq Kobe was the comparable scorer to Jordan.



> Here's an indisputable fact: Kobe will never win championships while carrying a team the way Jordan did. He can certainly win a championship as the best player on his team, but if he does so, he'll be averaging (for instance) 28.7/5.5/5.3/47% in the postseason, not 34/6.4/6.7/51% like Jordan did during the first three-peat. He won't have to carry whatever team he ends up with to the degree that Jordan did.
> 
> I'd bet my life on that, actually.


I don't know. I never thought I would sit down and see a player drop 40 points in less than 20 minutes with so much ease like Kobe does.



> So you're suggesting that there weren't more dominant shotblockers then as compared to now? And that the prevailing mentality wasn't to block shots rather than take charges like pansies? And that the excessive amount of foul calls today doesn't make big men think twice about going for blocks? Even the defensive 3 second call has had an impact on shotblocking/interior intimidation, since centers can't camp out in the lane anymore.


What's your point?

The focus is to stop points. Even the best shot blocker will get flushed on. If you try to take a charge you either get a turnover or send the guy to the line... and if he goes around you somehow he still might have to contend with backup. Every college coach in the country tries to teach taking charges over shot blocking. Why? It stops more points. There are millions of lanky athletic idiots that can block shots in the D leagues, they aren't in the NBA because they can't play basketball.

I'm sure Kobe would rather attack Manute Bol then a "charge taking pansy" like Kurt Thomas or Anderson Varejao. Especially considering Kobe's athleticism is still above his stubborness. Against the Rockets two weeks ago he flopped right into TMac and tried to attack traps 55 feet from the rim. 

And also of that list of shot blockers you made, Kobe faced 3 of them in the playoffs. While Jordan only faced Ewing. I found that funny.



> Too bad Jordan played and dominated until '98, and even occasionally abused guys like Pierce, Marion, Tmac, KG, Jim Jackson, Kenyon Martin, Kidd, R.Jeff, Eddie Jones, Aaron McKie etc. when he was 39-40 years old in 2002 and 2003.


And I'm sure he would tell you it was harder than in the 80's.


----------



## AFunk4Life (Jan 10, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

ONE WORD...MAGIC. The greatest team player in the history of basketball. Made all of his teammates better...its a team sport so enough said. If anybody says Kobe or Lebron James they should be severely beaten. Seriously.


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



SPMJ said:


> As in being 2nd only to Jason Kidd in the MVP race at the AS break of 01-02. This is well known. The Wizards had ridiculously overachieved and MJ was one of only 2 players(T-Mac the other) to be averaging over 25 points, 6 rebs and 5 assists. This despite being 38-39 years old.
> 
> It really cracks me up when people talk of MJ's era as if dinasours roamed the planet when he was dominating the league. The GOAT even as recently as '98 was the league's best player. Was easily a Top 10 player in the league at the age of 38/39 despite crappy knees and being away from the game for 3 1/2 years.
> 
> The talk of prime MJ not being able to duplicate his numbers in today's league is laughable. I'd say under the softer defensive rules starting 05-06 he'd be BETTER. More unguardable, at least.


Easily? Calling Jordan a top 10 player after he came back from his second retirement is a stretch. Since when does a guy averaging 23 ppg on 41.6% shooting as the number one option taking over 22 fga per game constitute as a top 10 player in the league?


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Drewbs said:


> Easily? Calling Jordan a top 10 player after he came back from his second retirement is a stretch. Since when does a guy averaging 23 ppg on 41.6% shooting as the number one option taking over 22 fga per game constitute as a top 10 player in the league?


He was averaging 25.2 pts/6.3 reb/5.2 ast/43.4% FG prior to hurting his knee. Those are top 10 numbers, but I personally wouldn't go so far as to call him a top 10 player in '02, though he might have been. Top 12, though, definitely. Regardless, it's very impressive for someone 39 years of age.

Shaq
TD
KG
AI
Kobe
TMac
Pierce
Carter
Kidd
Dirk
Webber
Payton


Those are about the only guys I'd put ahead of him in '02, and some of those are questionable. So he was top 15 almost unquestionably before hurting his knee.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

dp


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Drewbs said:


> Easily? Calling Jordan a top 10 player after he came back from his second retirement is a stretch. Since when does a guy averaging 23 ppg on 41.6% shooting as the number one option taking over 22 fga per game constitute as a top 10 player in the league?


When that Jordan nostalgia kicks in, anything is possible. Jordan's efficiency is so often attributed to his shot selection and decision making, but it's funny how when that same Jordan with the same mind for the game lost his athleticism, it took him 22 shots to get 23 points and all that stuff disappeared. First because he didn't have the supporting cast, second because the athleticism was gone. Much like Kobe now, except to a greater extent (in terms of athleticism).


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

the actual all-star game was the specific point in the season where the wiz hit their peak (26-21). for the year, jordan had the single worst scoring efficiency in basketball history for a 20 ppg scorer. at the all-star break it was still the worst ever. by the time he went out of the lineup, they were 1 game over .500. that he was considered a leading mvp candidate is a testament in part to his legend. the high iq jordan had the lowest efficiency for a bulk shooter in history. 

look, it was impressive what jordan still was during his comeback from an individual standpoint. and he had a short term positive influence on the teams performance. the '01 wiz had the worst defensive team in the league, and they improved in '02, in part leading to the improved performance. new coach. more stable roster ('01 team had 21 players play 13+ games). but lets not fool ourselves into thinking jordan was still an elite player. and that's not to demean him. he was still pretty good.


----------



## da bully (Oct 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

i think you kobe fans need to let it go this 23 forever guy is cleanin all of you guys clocks. and i thought i was a good debater. SHEESH


----------



## da bully (Oct 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

I ALSO DONT BELIEVE THAT HE HAS RELEGATED YOU GUYS TO TRYING TO PROVE YOUR POINT BY TRYING TO JAB HOLES IN A PLAYER THAT WAS 39-40 years old and still playing good basketball and was def a top 15 player.


----------



## da bully (Oct 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

and while i believe that kobes fg% would be higher if he was not taking so many threes, i also know that it was those three pointers that got him all those scoring records that he has. so you guys cant have it both ways.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



da bully said:


> i think you kobe fans need to let it go this 23 forever guy is cleanin all of you guys clocks. and i thought i was a good debater. SHEESH


It is the quality that matters, not quantity, having studied business, we were always taught to write short and to the point articles.
As far as debate is concerned, people will believe what they want, Jordan fans and Kobe haters will believe what he writes and Kobe fans will believe in what Kobe fans write.
But we all know the truth lies somewhere in between.


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Theonee said:


> It is the quality that matters, not quantity, having studied business, we were always taught to write short and to the point articles.
> As far as debate is concerned, people will believe what they want, Jordan fans and Kobe haters will believe what he writes and Kobe fans will believe in what Kobe fans write.
> But we all know the truth lies somewhere in between.


But his posts are all quality and most of them supported with factual informations unlike some of the Kobe apologist.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Air Fly said:


> But his posts are all quality and most of them supported with factual informations unlike some of the Kobe apologist.


Jordan = Kobe.


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



PauloCatarino said:


> Jordan = Kobe.


PauloCatarino = Jordan (hater) > Magic.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Air Fly said:


> PauloCatarino = Jordan (hater) > Magic.


Wilt > Magic > Jordan.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Air Fly said:


> But his posts are all quality and most of them supported with factual informations unlike some of the Kobe apologist.


Exactly the same thing I was getting at, Kobe haters will like his posts, you won't be supporting him, if he was saying bad things about Vince Carter.
Even facts can be twisted to suit ones needs or point.


----------



## theflyballa (Aug 8, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Jordan = Kobe = NOT TRUE
KOBE > JORDAN

Anyone that doesn't agree doesn't watch basketball.


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Sir Patchwork said:


> When that Jordan nostalgia kicks in, anything is possible. Jordan's efficiency is so often attributed to his shot selection and decision making, but it's funny how when that same Jordan with the same mind for the game lost his athleticism, it took him 22 shots to get 23 points and all that stuff disappeared.


The mind sees what it wants to do, but the body is not willing or able to carry it out. Jordan at age 33-35 still exhibited better basketball IQ and court sense than Kobe. So unless you'd like to make the rather bold claim that a 33-35 year old Jordan is more athletic (his only advantage, according to you) than a 27-28 year old Kobe, I think you'd have to concede that there are other differences between them as players.



> First because he didn't have the supporting cast, second because the athleticism was gone. Much like Kobe now, except to a greater extent (in terms of athleticism).


Is this a joke, Patchwork? "Much like Kobe now"? :lol: I wasn't aware that Kobe at age 28 was equivalent or even in the same ballpark as a 39-40 year old player playing on one knee.

Further, you must have missed it before, so I'll reiterate it: Kobe has *never* -- in *any* season, in *any* role, and with *any* caliber team -- exhibited the bball IQ and court awareness that Jordan did. It has nothing to do with athleticism and everything to do with how quickly one can anticipate and read defenses and react appropriately in various situations. Jordan had that in spades. Kobe's certainly above average in that regard, but the gap there is large; as I said, it's the biggest difference between the two of them.

Anyone is free to watch the videos I posted earlier and see for themselves. Fortunately, these things are pretty plain to non-Laker/Kobe homers when they see each player play.




Drewbs said:


> Easily? Calling Jordan a top 10 player after he came back from his second retirement is a stretch. Since when does a guy averaging 23 ppg on 41.6% shooting as the number one option taking over 22 fga per game constitute as a top 10 player in the league?


Like I said, I don't think he was top 10, but I'd put him top 15 until he hurt his knee. Unless you can name more than 15 guys with better lines/impact than a 25.2/6.3/5.2/43% FG player who had, by the ASG, taken a team that had won 19 games _the entire previous season_, to a 26-21 record despite losing two of their top 3 scorers from the year prior. So yeah, top 10 is a stretch, but top 15 isn't imo. I listed all the guys who I'd probably put over him that year, and even a couple of those are questionable. Unless I'm forgetting people. And to be in the top 4% of NBA players at age 39 is remarkable achievement. You likely won't see it again, in fact.




> but lets not fool ourselves into thinking jordan was still an elite player. and that's not to demean him. he was still pretty good.


Define "elite." Top 15, or even top 20, is still elite imo. But no, he wasn't top 5-10, much less unquestionably #1 as he was for nearly a decade.




Paulo Catarino said:


> and there were at least 5 guys that, untill that point, were more deserving.


Umm, no there weren't. There was Kidd, Shaq, Duncan, Tmac, and KG. That's it.




Paulo Catarino said:


> If you were talking about "untill the AS break", please reactivate the thread. If you are talking about the whole season, then you are wrong.


How could I be talking about the whole season when Jordan hurt his knee in the game right after the ASG (or the second game, I forget), then played several more games on that bad knee, dropping most of them, and then the team then went on a huge skid without him. So no, I wasn't referring to the entire season, and I made that clear in my posts both herein and in the other thread being referenced. I know you know how to read...




> the team started sliping right after the AS break, wchi was like the 10th Febreuary or something. Jordan played in 7 more games following. The Wizards lost 6 of them.


See above. He played on the bad knee after he banged it on Etan Thomas' knee for several games before deciding to shut it down.




> Jordan played 60 games and ended up #13 in the voting. Curiously, Iverson played the same amout of games and finished #9. Webber played even less games (57) and finished... #7. And Shaq, with 67 games, finished #3.


They also all had better records than Washington ended up having (Webber and Shaq much better). They also ended up having better stats (pre-ASG Jordan's stats were at least star-quality).



kflo said:


> not sure why you're not following this. jordan changed how he attacked offensively and it resulted in a significant drop in his fta/fga relative to league avg.


After 1989? Really? What, pray tell, was the significant change in his game that led to this reduced number of FT's, kflo? Don't give me that "relative to his peers" nonsense, since every wing star's FTA/gm is jacked up nowadays. Explain to me in simple English how a player who was *visibly* more aggressive than Kobe can average 2-3 fewer FTA/gm. Hint: he didn't start going to the post on the majority of his possessions until his post-retirement phase.




> jordan stopped going to the line as much. period. in '92, jordan was 70 in the league in fta/fga. and now you want to just make kobe and jordan equal here? on what basis?


So you're asserting that Kobe actually _deserves_ 2-3 more FTA/gm than Jordan took from age 26-30 based on his (Kobe's) style of play and abilities? I think that virtually anyone who watches the two of them play will see that Jordan, even until age 30, was a *far* more aggressive offensive player; this, ostensibly, should lead to more trips to the line. That it didn't only illustrates that the high number of FTA's awarded to many stars today isn't based on aggressiveness or _actual_ foul drawing (under the foul interpretations of yesteryear), but rather on vaguely defined, loose criteria specifically designed to benefit perimeter players (and this is documented).


Here's a thought experiment, and I want your honest answer: how many FTA's would 26-27 year old Jordan average in today's league?




Jamel Irief said:


> I will conceed Payton, but that's it. Carter and Hill had yet (and arguably still haven't) shown that they can handle the playoff pressure. Who knows if they step up in game 7 when Portland shut down Shaq. Who knows if they hit the game winner over Jason Kidd in game 2. Who knows if they beat the Pacers by themselves in overtime of game 4 when Shaq fouled out.


Ever think that maybe the series wouldn't have even _gotten_ to a game 7 if you replaced Kobe with VC or Hill? I'm pretty sure they could have done a bit better than Kobe's 20.4 ppg on 43.9% shooting that series. Or that they wouldn't even _have_ to "take over" against Indiana because they wouldn't have been badly outplayed by Reggie Miller and Jaln Rose that series? I bet you never considered these things, though...



Jamel Irief said:


> Ok, in 00 and 01 George didn't play. The other 'athletes' alongside Kobe were Glen Rice, Ron Harper and Rick Fox.


Try to follow here: we were talking about Kobe's *entire playoff career* (relative to Jordan's). You posited that Kobe's defensive efforts were why he couldn't or didn't play better offensively in the postseason. I noted (quite correctly, mind you) that Phil Jackson frequently put Rick Fox or Devean George on tough assignments in the postseason; you proceeded to tell me that George didn't play in '00 or '01 (which he didn't). What you fail to realize was that this was a discussion about Kobe's *entire postseason career since 2000*, not just 2000 or 2001. George played significant postseason minutes in '03 and '04, and Fox in '01-'03.



> Your brought up Wally and selectively posted the numbers the year he came off the bench.


Umm, there was nothing "selective" about it. That was *what he averaged* the first year the Lakers faced the Wolves in the playoffs. The second time they met in the postseason, Sczczczczczczerbiak only averaged 10 ppg, but Kobe spent most of his time on an aged Latrell Sprewell. So I actually posted his best numbers of the years they met in the postseason. See how kind I am?




> In 2003 he still was when Kobe dropped 44 in the first half on him and his Wizards.


Jordan didn't guard Kobe for a single one of Kobe's baskets that half. Go watch the video. So I'm not sure how it was "on him."



> Why not bring up the player he guarded for the majority of the series?


Because Kobe getting embarrassed by a crippled Penny is fresh in my mind; I actually don't recall who he guarded aside from Penny.



> Again, the point was Kobe had other important roles besides scorer.


No doubt he did. The pertinent question to ask (in light of how this digression began) is whether these other responsibilities were weighty enough to preclude the possibility of great offensive performances (40+ point games), especially given the volume of shots Kobe took in the postseason. I think most would agree that they weren't.



> You probably are right, I guess my memory is too vivid of Jordan guarding Vlade Divac and Pippen disrupting the Pacers entire offense in 98.


Funny how you can have a vivid memory of something that only occurred for half of one quarter of one game (Jordan guarding Divac). :lol: And yes, I am right (about Pippen and Jordan's defensive assignments).




> I don't, I am just curious.


Fair enough. I don't actually know of any such list for either player, however, unless Kobe and Jordan's GW list includes the postseason. Neither would include game-tying shots, though.



Jamel Irief said:


> Again, you want to talk about excuses, but not at one point in this thread did I argue that the Kobe-Shaq Kobe was the comparable scorer to Jordan.


Something to consider is that players don't change that much from age 23-24 to age 27-28. The circumstances may change, and players can improve marginally by adding new skills (Kobe's 3-point shot is certainly much better now than it was in, say, 2002), but no player is virtually an entirely different/incredibly more potent player than they were at age 24 when they are 27 or 28. Just something to consider...




> I don't know. I never thought I would sit down and see a player drop 40 points in less than 20 minutes with so much ease like Kobe does.


We'll see if I'm proven right about him carrying his team to the same degree as Jordan did production-wise.

By the by, when has Kobe scored 40+ points in under 20 minutes? Not from the start of a game, certainly; the only two times I can possibly think of is the first half vs. Washington and perhaps a 20 minute stretch in the second half vs. Toronto. Are those games what you were referring to? Not to take anything away from those performances (as I said, I believe that Kobe is the most explosive scorer ever when he gets in his super zone from deep), but neither were against particularly good teams. Jordan's scored 35 points in 17 first half minutes in the NBA Finals. And he only had 1 FT that half.




> I'm sure Kobe would rather attack Manute Bol then a "charge taking pansy" like Kurt Thomas or Anderson Varejao. Especially considering Kobe's athleticism is still above his stubborness


This is a joke, right? So dominant shotblockers have no effect on the complexion of a game, and don't constrain what an offensive player can do? News to me...



> And also of that list of shot blockers you made, Kobe faced 3 of them in the playoffs. While Jordan only faced Ewing. I found that funny.


Oh, so _now_ it's about who a player faced in the playoffs, but before, when speaking about his comp at the SG spot, it was just about who happened to be in the league? Nice consistency, there.

Your entire line of "argumentation" attempting to discredit the effect of dominant shotblockers and a pervasive shotblocking *mentality* (as opposed to taking charges) is bunk.




> And I'm sure he would tell you it was harder than in the 80's.


No question. Not least of which because he was on one gimpy knee and was 39-40 years old. But yes, defenses have gotten better, just not to the extent you suppose. This is why I don't say anything absurd like "Jordan would shoot the same FG% he did back then!" or "Jordan would average 40 ppg with the new rules!" like some people do. What I say is entirely realistic and reasonable. Sorry you can't see that.


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



JNice said:


> Who the hell said Kobe is the greatest player ever?





theflyballa said:


> Jordan = Kobe = NOT TRUE
> KOBE > JORDAN
> 
> Anyone that doesn't agree doesn't watch basketball.


*Spotted*


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Theonee said:


> Exactly the same thing I was getting at, Kobe haters will like his posts, you won't be supporting him, if he was saying bad things about Vince Carter.
> Even facts can be twisted to suit ones needs or point.


I would support him regardless cause Jordan is my favorite player of all-time.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> The mind sees what it wants to do, but the body is not willing or able to carry it out. Jordan at age 33-35 still exhibited better basketball IQ and court sense than Kobe. So unless you'd like to make the rather bold claim that a 33-35 year old Jordan is more athletic (his only advantage, according to you) than a 27-28 year old Kobe, I think you'd have to concede that there are other differences between them as players.


Jordan at 33-35 had an entirely different environment than Kobe does now. That was my original point. He had the luxury of picking and choosing his spots, and leaning on his teammates, because well, his team was damn good. Hell, they won 56 games without him, and without even a decent replacement for him. 



Jordan23Forever said:


> Is this a joke, Patchwork? "Much like Kobe now"? :lol: I wasn't aware that Kobe at age 28 was equivalent or even in the same ballpark as a 39-40 year old player playing on one knee.


We're talking about their IQ. Why should Jordan's IQ change when he is older? He should still be able to read defenses and adjust accordingly, as you say. That doesn't jive with the fact that in a Wizards uniform he was far worse than Kobe in terms of shot selection and decision making. Even an 80's Jordan was criticized for his shot selection and decision making, and that has a direct correlation to him not having the supporting cast. Jordan's (large) advantage on Kobe clearly lies in the athleticism and the hands. 



Jordan23Forever said:


> Further, you must have missed it before, so I'll reiterate it: Kobe has *never* -- in *any* season, in *any* role, and with *any* caliber team -- exhibited the bball IQ and court awareness that Jordan did. It has nothing to do with athleticism and everything to do with how quickly one can anticipate and read defenses and react appropriately in various situations. Jordan had that in spades. Kobe's certainly above average in that regard, but the gap there is large; as I said, it's the biggest difference between the two of them.


Again, Phil Jackson would disagree. You can stir up a bunch of bogey man about how he didn't really _mean_ what he said (because it flies in the face of your opinion) but you know that's reaching on your part. Burden of proof is on you. 



Jordan23Forever said:


> Anyone is free to watch the videos I posted earlier and see for themselves. Fortunately, these things are pretty plain to non-Laker/Kobe homers when they see each player play.


Says the guys with the Username "Jordan23Forever" who clearly dislikes Kobe. Playing the bias card is not your best bet. I'm a Bulls fan for christ sakes, and Jordan is absolutely one of my favorite players of all-time. Jordan's Bulls got me started on basketball for crying out loud.


----------



## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



SPMJ said:


> LOL, you don't wanna mess with Jordan23Forever when it comes to MJ. I've seen him embarass anyone and everyone all over the net. Not only does he have a great understanding of the game and is old enough to have followed MJ's prime(something I know not even 1% of bb.net has, and with the exception of kflo, jordan23forever and myself NOBODY in this thread. Least of all 22-year-old Patchwork who routinely makes the most clueless comments when it comes to MJ that I've ever read). Back to Jordan23Forever, he's also a ****ing computer when it comes to MJ's statistics and those of his rivals/peers. An amazing fanatic if there ever was one.














> *Sycophant* differs from Me-Too in that he is much more concerned with sucking up than he is with actually doing battle. Of course, he WILL engage in some light combat to impress Big Dog and other stronger Warriors, but he never exposes himself to unnecessary danger. Although combatants sometimes employ *Sycophant* to buttress an attack, his constantly shifting loyalties make him a weak and unreliable ally.


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Rawse said:


>


You are not funny. When did it become a crime to complement someone for his great posts? 

I thought this is why we have the rep power.


----------



## da bully (Oct 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

you guys just dont get it. if i were to say that ray allen was a better jumpshooter than reggie miller does that mean that miller is a bad jumpshooter? or that nash is a better passer than stockton? is stockton a bad pg? 23 is simply stating that he as do i believe that jordan is a much better player than bryant. and thats not a knock on kobe. the fact is that kobe is in so many arguments, because he is a great player. now if someone was to try to make a case that lets say a kerry kittles was better than jordan , noone would respond because everyone other than MAYBE kittles mom knows that that is a rediculous statement.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Rawse said:


>


*reads amazed at how much that site matches posters here*


----------



## da bully (Oct 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

i think 23 forever is a great poster. the only thing that i would love to debate him in is the fact that he (i believe) feels that jordan was a better player in his first championship than the last and that he doesnt believe that jordan could average around 40 a game in this era of basketball.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



da bully said:


> you guys just dont get it. if i were to say that ray allen was a better jumpshooter than reggie miller does that mean that miller is a bad jumpshooter? or that nash is a better passer than stockton? is stockton a bad pg? 23 is simply stating that he as do i believe that jordan is a much better player than bryant. and thats not a knock on kobe. the fact is that kobe is in so many arguments, because he is a great player. now if someone was to try to make a case that lets say a kerry kittles was better than jordan , noone would respond because everyone other than MAYBE kittles mom knows that that is a rediculous statement.


For the 324924630543th time, nobody is saying Kobe is better than Jordan (except theflyballa who nobody even takes serious). We're arguing the differences and what made Jordan better.


----------



## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Air Fly said:


> You are not funny.


*Air Fly Warrior Analysis*

CURRENTLY:












> Though annoying and often disruptive, *Fanboy* is a relatively harmless Warrior because his interests and knowledge are strictly limited a single obsession. He's fixated on a particular video game, a celebrity, a television show, a sports team, – almost anything, really. *Fanboy*’s compulsion makes him very easy to identify, but it also arms him with supernatural tenacity. The most benign criticism of his beloved immediately provokes a cascade of virulent abuse. Once alerted to *Fanboy*'s sensitivities Evil Clown, Troller and Jerk will goad him mercilessly. CAUTION: ANYONE can become a *Fanboy*, but the warning signs of an emerging *Fanboy* are subtle and easily overlooked. For example, are you a little hasty to defend Linux?














> *Palooka* will battle anyone, anytime, anywhere - he seems to love it, even though he always takes a beating. After a terrific pounding at the hands of, for example, Kung-Fu Master, he'll just struggle to his feet and wobble back into the ring. His astonishing ability to absorb punishment leads one to suspect that during his long Warrior career *Palooka* has taken a few too many punches. Often, as an act of mercy, Nanny will step in to stop the fight.


FORMERLY:












> Be he a Baptist, Scientologist or Zoroastrian, in the heat of battle Deacon will call down Divine retribution on all net sinners, and will never miss an opportunity to blather endlessly about his religion. Deacon is fervent and earnest, but seldom contributes anything of interest or substance to the discussion. Occasionally Tireless Rebutter or Philosopher will rouse themselves engage Deacon in battle, but they soon lose interest because of his utter predictability.


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

4 words for you - SHUT THE **** UP



Rawse said:


> *Air Fly Warrior Analysis*
> 
> CURRENTLY:
> 
> ...


----------



## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Air Fly said:


> 4 words for you - SHUT THE **** UP














> Although sometimes a male, *Crybaby* is usually a female, and often a close ally of Innocence Abused. When teased or attacked, *Crybaby* will pitch a loud public temper tantrum, holding her breath and kicking her feet. If that defense fails she will run to Nanny for comfort.


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Rawse said:


>


So you admit that you attacked me first. How modly, and still continued with this silly act.

behave yourself, you're 24 years old for christ sake. Grow the **** up.


----------



## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Air Fly said:


> So you admit that you attacked me first. How modly, and still continued with this silly act.
> 
> behave yourself, you're 24 years old for christ sake. Grow the **** up.


Actually, you addressed me first, Fanboy, in an attempt to further along your little passive-aggressive grudge from several months back. Lest I forget those hysterical (not meaning "funny") private messages. 

But if you're that worried about my moderator abilities (which you aren't, but playing the "You aren't acting like a MOD!" card is about the only thing you're capable of doing when you try coming after me and I respond), direct those complaints to the appropriate people...and live up to the description I just posted.


----------



## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Rawse is a pretty funny dude


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Rawse said:


>


Is that an easter bunny shot by Dick Cheney.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

wow, this thread degenerated quick. I think I'll put this into the "Kobe's Fault Bin"


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> And to be in the top 4% of NBA players at age 39 is remarkable achievement. You likely won't see it again, in fact.


except maybe karl malone. that same season.




Jordan23Forever said:


> After 1989? Really? What, pray tell, was the significant change in his game that led to this reduced number of FT's, kflo? Don't give me that "relative to his peers" nonsense, since every wing star's FTA/gm is jacked up nowadays. Explain to me in simple English how a player who was *visibly* more aggressive than Kobe can average 2-3 fewer FTA/gm. Hint: he didn't start going to the post on the majority of his possessions until his post-retirement phase.


why would i possibly have to argue why kobe gets to the line at a better rate when players like john starks, terry porter, drexler, dumars, doc rivers, willie burton, bimbo coles, reggie miller, kj, michael williams, marciullonis, all got to the stripe at a better rate than jordan (1992)? if you want to go back to 1990 we've got marciullonis, magic, kj, reggie, porter, ice reynolds, hersey hawkins, sam vincent, reggie theus, dan majerle, ricky pierce, strickland, mitch richmond. all perimeter players getting to the stripe at a better rate than jordan. again, his rate to the stripe materially changed in 1990, reaching a low in 1993. you might want to start here, instead of continuing to insist your eyes know. instead of asking why kobe, you might want to ask why john starks. 




Jordan23Forever said:


> So you're asserting that Kobe actually _deserves_ 2-3 more FTA/gm than Jordan took from age 26-30 based on his (Kobe's) style of play and abilities? I think that virtually anyone who watches the two of them play will see that Jordan, even until age 30, was a *far* more aggressive offensive player; this, ostensibly, should lead to more trips to the line. That it didn't only illustrates that the high number of FTA's awarded to many stars today isn't based on aggressiveness or _actual_ foul drawing (under the foul interpretations of yesteryear), but rather on vaguely defined, loose criteria specifically designed to benefit perimeter players (and this is documented).


see above.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Phil knew full well that Kobe was an egomaniac who, more than anything, needed praise and adulation. The above quote entirely misses the point (not least of which because Phil says that he never asked Jordan to play that sort of game, so you can't reasonably infer how he'd perform). And the point is that basketball IQ and court sense is something that is *instinctual and mental*; moreover, it is something that is perceptible. Most people who watch the following videos:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=joleroke
> 
> ...


when jordan's skills and athleticism eroded, that high basketball iq led to the worst scoring efficiency for a bulk shooter in league history, covering 1000+ player seasons. the game came easy to jordan so you're fooled into thinking his mind was far superior to what it was. he had a sound basketball mind, but it was his skills and ability that set him apart. it's like really being into some girl and thinking it's her mind you love, and then when she puts on 25 lbs you realize that her mind wasn't that great after all. 

and to say the quote entirely misses the point is simply denial.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Ever think that maybe the series wouldn't have even _gotten_ to a game 7 if you replaced Kobe with VC or Hill? I'm pretty sure they could have done a bit better than Kobe's 20.4 ppg on 43.9% shooting that series. Or that they wouldn't even _have_ to "take over" against Indiana because they wouldn't have been badly outplayed by Reggie Miller and Jaln Rose that series? I bet you never considered these things, though...


It wouldn't though. Vince Carter averaged 19 points on <b>30%</b> shooting that same year in the playoffs. 20.4 and 43.9 doesn't look so bad now does it? Hill averaged 11 points on 38% shooting but was hobbled by the ankle that eventually ruined his career. As for this stuff you keep insisting about Reggie, Kobe shut him down in game 1, got hurt early in game 2 and missed game 3. Stop making stuff up, Reggie had much better playoff series against Jordan than he did against Kobe.



> Try to follow here: we were talking about Kobe's *entire playoff career* (relative to Jordan's). You posited that Kobe's defensive efforts were why he couldn't or didn't play better offensively in the postseason. I noted (quite correctly, mind you) that Phil Jackson frequently put Rick Fox or Devean George on tough assignments in the postseason; you proceeded to tell me that George didn't play in '00 or '01 (which he didn't). What you fail to realize was that this was a discussion about Kobe's *entire postseason career since 2000*, not just 2000 or 2001. George played significant postseason minutes in '03 and '04, and Fox in '01-'03.


Neither George or Fox would EVER check a backcourt player. So it's all point less anyways.



> Umm, there was nothing "selective" about it. That was *what he averaged* the first year the Lakers faced the Wolves in the playoffs. The second time they met in the postseason, Sczczczczczczerbiak only averaged 10 ppg, but Kobe spent most of his time on an aged Latrell Sprewell. So I actually posted his best numbers of the years they met in the postseason. See how kind I am?


You're wrong again here, the first time the Lakers faced the wolves Wally was a 17 ppg scorer. Unless you posted his playoff averages, in which case you can only praise Kobe and the Lakers for slowing down their 2nd best scorer.



> Jordan didn't guard Kobe for a single one of Kobe's baskets that half. Go watch the video. So I'm not sure how it was "on him."


I said "on him" in the sense that him and his team were the one suffering from that onslaught. I guess Doug Collins has the same silly belief that who you are asked to guard on the defensive end impacts your scoring. So Kobe was "hounded" by Stackhouse, Lue and Simmons.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/he0akllbsoU"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/he0akllbsoU" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>



> No doubt he did. The pertinent question to ask (in light of how this digression began) is whether these other responsibilities were weighty enough to preclude the possibility of great offensive performances (40+ point games), especially given the volume of shots Kobe took in the postseason. I think most would agree that they weren't.


Well hopefully they will chime in. I would like your theory on why Kobe is such a better scorer now that he has a different role now then since you don't like mine.



> Funny how you can have a vivid memory of something that only occurred for half of one quarter of one game (Jordan guarding Divac). :lol: And yes, I am right (about Pippen and Jordan's defensive assignments).


It's the last time I ever remember a guard checking a center. Especially considering this was supposed to be your elite all-team defender. 



> Something to consider is that players don't change that much from age 23-24 to age 27-28. The circumstances may change, and players can improve marginally by adding new skills (Kobe's 3-point shot is certainly much better now than it was in, say, 2002), but no player is virtually an entirely different/incredibly more potent player than they were at age 24 when they are 27 or 28. Just something to consider...


All I said is his role has changed, not his skills. I didn't even say he was a better player than he was at 24, just a better scorer.



> By the by, when has Kobe scored 40+ points in under 20 minutes? Not from the start of a game, certainly; the only two times I can possibly think of is the first half vs. Washington and perhaps a 20 minute stretch in the second half vs. Toronto. Are those games what you were referring to? Not to take anything away from those performances (as I said, I believe that Kobe is the most explosive scorer ever when he gets in his super zone from deep), but neither were against particularly good teams. Jordan's scored 35 points in 17 first half minutes in the NBA Finals. And he only had 1 FT that half.


To start the game the only time he did it was against the Wizards. He also did it this year against the Jazz, and last year against the clippers. Also not sure but I think he did it against the Grizzlies 5 years ago when he got 55 in 3 quarters and last year against Mavs. Every time I see him do something like that I am convinced I am watching the performance of my lifetime.



> This is a joke, right? So dominant shotblockers have no effect on the complexion of a game, and don't constrain what an offensive player can do? News to me...


Not compared to a great overall team defense.



> Oh, so _now_ it's about who a player faced in the playoffs, but before, when speaking about his comp at the SG spot, it was just about who happened to be in the league? Nice consistency, there.


All I was trying to prove is that shot blockers are in every era. Great team defense wasn't. More than half the shotblockers you listed were guys Kobe took it on to.



> Your entire line of "argumentation" attempting to discredit the effect of dominant shotblockers and a pervasive shotblocking *mentality* (as opposed to taking charges) is bunk.


It is because you say it is right? Obviously shot blockers weren't doing much to stop scoring in the 80's.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



da bully said:


> and while i believe that kobes fg% would be higher if he was not taking so many threes, i also know that it was those three pointers that got him all those scoring records that he has. so you guys cant have it both ways.


you're just not understanding the argument. i'm not rationalizing his fg% or hypothesizing about what it would be. i'm saying it's not very relevant in the first place.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



da bully said:


> I ALSO DONT BELIEVE THAT HE HAS RELEGATED YOU GUYS TO TRYING TO PROVE YOUR POINT BY TRYING TO JAB HOLES IN A PLAYER THAT WAS 39-40 years old and still playing good basketball and was def a top 15 player.


the question is what do you want to extrapolate from that. karl malone was just as effective as jordan at around the same age / year. what do you want to deduce? it's the jordanites who bring up 39 year old jordan in the first place as evidence of something. of what? what it says about karl malone, or michael jordan, or john stockton, in part, is that they took good care of themselves and didn't have any real debilitating or degenerative injuries (that befell many of their contemporaries). beyond that, i don't think you can draw much more. that jordan may have been a top 15 player at 39 proves absolutely nothing in comparison to players who were materially better than him at the same time.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Here's an article on Jordan vs Kobe...



> Jordan versus Kobe
> 
> 
> 
> ...


http://kicksguide.com/articles/comparisons/jordan-vs-kobe/jordan-vs-kobe.asp


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Basel57 said:


> Here's an article on Jordan vs Kobe...
> 
> 
> 
> http://kicksguide.com/articles/comparisons/jordan-vs-kobe/jordan-vs-kobe.asp


Who cares? This is one of the articles written by Jordan fan,pretending to be unbiased, Kobe fan.
I am sure Kobe fans can write same article which can make Kobe look better.
It is just his opinion, *Opinions are like *******s, everyone has got one*.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

I suppose...just wanted to post it since I found it.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Basel57 said:


> I suppose...just wanted to post it since I found it.


My comments wasn't aimed at ya, it was at the author of the article, who claims he or she is a huge kobe fan, but all he or she does is insult Kobe, his game, and his personality to so that he can make Jordan look better.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Theonee said:


> My comments wasn't aimed at ya, it was at the author of the article.


I know.


----------



## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Theonee said:


> My comments wasn't aimed at ya, it was at the author of the article, who claims he or she is a huge kobe fan, but all he or she does is insult Kobe, his game, and his personality to so that he can make Jordan look better.


Did you read it? Though it wasn't the highest grade of writing, the points the author makes are very good and logical. And the conclusion was the right one, Jordan had a more significant impact on the game of basketball than Kobe and was a better player than Kobe. Just read the paragraph under 'Shooting.' It's pretty basic but it appears that logic seems to escape certain Kobe fanatics and it essentially spells it out for you.


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



theflyballa said:


> Jordan = Kobe = NOT TRUE
> KOBE > JORDAN
> 
> Anyone that doesn't agree doesn't watch basketball.


When Jordan was in his prime, how old were you?


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



SickGame said:


> Did you read it? Though it wasn't the highest grade of writing, the points the author makes are very good and logical. And the conclusion was the right one, Jordan had a more significant impact on the game of basketball than Kobe and was a better player than Kobe. Just read the paragraph under 'Shooting.' It's pretty basic but it appears that logic seems to escape certain Kobe fanatics and it essentially spells it out for you.


The author of the article has cherry picked some Jordan Stats. Any moderate fan could see that the author was a huge Jordan fan, but tries to act like he is unbiased by saying, he is a huge Kobe fan.
Why lie about it, when it obvious.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



John said:


> When Jordan was in his prime, how old were you?


I don't think anyone takes him seriously though.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Umm, no there weren't. There was Kidd, Shaq, Duncan, Tmac, and KG. That's it.


Doesn't that make, like, 5 players?



> How could I be talking about the whole season when Jordan hurt his knee in the game right after the ASG (or the second game, I forget), then played several more games on that bad knee, dropping most of them, and then the team then went on a huge skid without him. So no, I wasn't referring to the entire season, and I made that clear in my posts both herein and in the other thread being referenced. I know you know how to read...
> 
> See above. He played on the bad knee after he banged it on Etan Thomas' knee for several games before deciding to shut it down.


Yeah, you are right.

In fact, the proof that Jordan is Jesus is that:
- In 23/02/2002, he went for 37pts, 7 ast, 5rbds in a loss to the Heat;
- In 24/02/2002 (i guess it's the following day), he went for 9pts-6asts-5rbds in a loss to the Heat.

That proves Jordan's greatness: on a "bad knee" he goes for 37 and the next day he goes for 9.



> They also all had better records than Washington ended up having (Webber and Shaq much better). They also ended up having better stats (pre-ASG Jordan's stats were at least star-quality).


Off ocurse they all had better records. And that's exactly the point.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



PauloCatarino said:


> Doesn't that make, like, 5 players?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yet someone like Kareem couldnt even average 10 points a game at age 40 Paulo. However I'm sure Paulo will agree with me when I say MJ > Kareem > Kobe.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Theonee said:


> Who cares? This is one of the articles written by Jordan fan,pretending to be unbiased, Kobe fan.
> I am sure Kobe fans can write same article which can make Kobe look better.
> It is just his opinion, *Opinions are like *******s, everyone has got one*.


You're making an unsupported assumption about the author. Please provide me some factual information that the author is pretending to be a Kobe fan, who really likes Jordan more. I think it's hard for you to swallow that there is many Kobe Bryant fan's like myself who think Kobe is the whole world in the NBA right now, but at the same time realize Kobe Bryant is a poor mans version of Michael Jordan.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



23AJ said:


> Yet someone like Kareem couldnt even average 10 points a game at age 40 Paulo. However I'm sure Paulo will agree with me when I say MJ > Kareem > Kobe.


Kareem averaged 14.6ppg at age 40.

What are you talking about?


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



PauloCatarino said:


> Kareem averaged 14.6ppg at age 40.
> 
> What are you talking about?


You just made my point thank you. And Paulo MJ > Kareem > Kobe.

Paulo drop a list of NBA players names you think are better then Kobe Bryant in a greatest ever list of basketball players. I'm curious where you rank kobe right now in his career, compared to Kobe's peers such as Tim Ducnan, Shaq etc and to former greats such as Magic, Bird, Wilt, and Jordan.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



23AJ said:


> You just made my point thank you. And Paulo MJ > Kareem > Kobe.


I know i am slow, but i don't understand this. You said Kareem couldn't put up 10ppg at age 40. He did, and i informed you of it. What gives?



> Paulo drop a list of NBA players names you think are better then Kobe Bryant in a greatest ever list of basketball players. I'm curious where you rank kobe right now in his career, compared to Kobe's peers such as Tim Ducnan, Shaq etc and to former greats such as Magic, Bird, Wilt, and Jordan.


You didn't say "please"... :yay:


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



23AJ said:


> You're making an unsupported assumption about the author. Please provide me some factual information that the author is pretending to be a Kobe fan, who really likes Jordan more. I think it's hard for you to swallow that there is many Kobe Bryant fan's like myself who think Kobe is the whole world in the NBA right now, but at the same time realize Kobe Bryant is a poor mans version of Michael Jordan.


The author also says that he is Kobe fan, is there any proof of that. At least my proof is in his article.
No one said that Kobe is better than Jordan, how many times do we have to say that. At the same time, Jordan has his strengths and Kobe has his strengths. Jordan is a better all-round basketball player. The author of the article stoops so low that he has to mention Greg Anthony incident to insult Kobe. Is that what fans of a certain player do.


----------



## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Is it like a cool thing to hate on Jordan these days? 

I find it useless to argue over the greatness of a 40 year old Jordan. At 39-40 regardless of efficiency Jordan still had impact and before his knee injury at 39 he was a MVP candidate. That's incredible when you think about it and more incredible when you consider he didn't play competitive basketball for what 3-4 years? That's all I'm gonna say about this because this argument is getting old and stale. People are gonna have their biases no matter what. 

Is Jordan the greatest? I will tell you what he has more argument than Kobe thats for sure. We are looking at an entire career's worth of accomplishments when we answer that question. When we talk about skill. Kobe is right up there. Jordan is not untouchable. I dun't even think Jordan was the most skilled player. Look up Magic.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Gilgamesh said:


> Is it like a cool thing to hate on Jordan these days?
> 
> I find it useless to argue over the greatness of a 40 year old Jordan. At 39-40 regardless of efficiency Jordan still had impact and before his knee injury at 39 he was a MVP candidate. That's incredible when you think about it and more incredible when you consider he didn't play competitive basketball for what 3-4 years? That's all I'm gonna say about this because this argument is getting old and stale. People are gonna have their biases no matter what.
> 
> Is Jordan the greatest? I will tell you what he has more argument than Kobe thats for sure. We are looking at an entire career's worth of accomplishments when we answer that question. When we talk about skill. Kobe is right up there. Jordan is not untouchable. I dun't even think Jordan was the most skilled player. Look up Magic.


the issue around a 39 year old jordan is how it is brought up in his favor somehow as proof that he would be more or as dominant today as he was back in his day. again, karl malone was arguably just as good as or even better than jordan at that point, so what do we extrapolate about that? i consider jordan the best ever, and i am impressed with the level he was able to play at upon his return (although disappointed in some ways as well), but i'm certainly not going to use it as some sort of evidence as to why he's better than another all-time great. so full context of his season can provide better perspective, so we don't connect dots that aren't really there. lets just not try an imply a 39 year old jordan was anywhere close to the best player in the league. and with how his season is presented, that's almost what is implied. he was impressive, he was effective, beyond that, what more can you conclude? i'll give you you can conclude he was a special player. beyond that? not too much.


----------



## da bully (Oct 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

i have a question for you kobe fans. if a relatively healthy jordan a age 39 can after an almost 4 year layoff from the nba, average 25 5 and 5, be in the running for the mvp most of the season, come with in one shot of winning the allstar game mvp, get on a team that had no chance to be a playoff contender and make them a playoff contender, and not disgrace himself defensivly if he can be that good, statisticly. how good do you think he would be?


----------



## carlos710 (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



kflo said:


> the issue around a 39 year old jordan is how it is brought up in his favor somehow as proof that he would be more or as dominant today as he was back in his day.


Who said that ?



kflo said:


> again, karl malone was arguably just as good as or even better than jordan at that point, so what do we extrapolate about that? i


Except that he wasnt:

-Neither close to MJ in their respective primes 
Nor
-Better than Olajuwon, shaq, nor even Robinson IMO.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

he took 3 seasons off. he also took almost 2 other seasons off in his prime. his body didn't have any degenerative conditions that befell other peers, like hakeem, ewing, bird, etc. in some respects, the time off at least minimized the chance of him not being able to perform at 39 due to degenerative injuries. he also obviously stayed in good shape and kept his basketball skills sharp. and he's arguably the best player ever. put it all together, and you have someone capable of still playing at a very high level. like karl malone, who simply never got injured and was right there with jordan. again, what do you want to deduce about malone if he's playing at the same level as jordan at the same age? jordan was a minor mvp candidate (candidate to maybe crack top 5 in part due to being mj) for maybe 1-2 weeks, when the wiz hit their peak at 26-21. 

how good would he be? he'd be great - the best player in the league. but i don't need a 39 year old jordan to make that determination. a 39 year old jordan and a soon to be 39 year old malone simply proved that they were able to maintain their greatness longer than most. and that some of their talents didn't rely upon freakish athleticism, at least at that point. 

and lets remember jordan amassed his 25 ppg less efficiently than anyone in league history. if it wasn't a 39 year old legend, we might have viewed his game a bit differently.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

I love how people can watch a little ESPN classic and be so certain about careers that spanned the period they were playing with transformers.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



carlos710 said:


> Who said that ?


SPMJ said:



> As in being 2nd only to Jason Kidd in the MVP race at the AS break of 01-02. This is well known. The Wizards had ridiculously overachieved and MJ was one of only 2 players(T-Mac the other) to be averaging over 25 points, 6 rebs and 5 assists. This despite being 38-39 years old.
> 
> It really cracks me up when people talk of MJ's era as if dinasours roamed the planet when he was dominating the league. The GOAT even as recently as '98 was the league's best player. Was easily a Top 10 player in the league at the age of 38/39 despite crappy knees and being away from the game for 3 1/2 years.
> 
> The talk of prime MJ not being able to duplicate his numbers in today's league is laughable. I'd say under the softer defensive rules starting 05-06 he'd be BETTER. More unguardable, at least.


again, i'm talking about what's implied by talking about the 39 year old jordan.



carlos710 said:


> Except that he wasnt:
> 
> -Neither close to MJ in their respective primes
> Nor
> -Better than Olajuwon, shaq, nor even Robinson IMO.


[/quote]

i said he was arguably as good or better than jordan in 2002. at the same age. so if you want to conclude anything about jordan based on what he was at 39, we could similarly conclude about the mailman.


----------



## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

7/26...just about out of the playoffs now.


----------



## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

The "greatest player" arguement is the dumbest thing I've heard of. It's impossible to factor in what a player would have done in a different time period. Would Shaq be as good as Wilt if he played in Wilt's era? Would Wilt dominate now?

And you can't take their accomplishments out of that context, because that betrays the nature of the argument. Or does it? 

It's like, "hey, I'm not going to change your mind at all, but I'd like to argue, because, **** it, I have nothing better to do."

Why can't people just appreciate players for what they are, and more importantly, just accept my opinions as the truth that I've acknowleged them to be?


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Sliccat said:


> The "greatest player" arguement is the dumbest thing I've heard of. It's impossible to factor in what a player would have done in a different time period. Would Shaq be as good as Wilt if he played in Wilt's era? Would Wilt dominate now?
> 
> And you can't take their accomplishments out of that context, because that betrays the nature of the argument. Or does it?
> 
> ...


Allen Iverson says MJ is the GOAT. Yet I guess it's still the dumbest thing ever.


----------



## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



23AJ said:


> Allen Iverson says MJ is the GOAT. Yet I guess it's still the dumbest thing ever.


It's always nice when somebody completely misses the point. Either way, why do I have to think something is smart just because Iverson says it?


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Sliccat said:


> The "greatest player" arguement is the dumbest thing I've heard of. It's impossible to factor in what a player would have done in a different time period. Would Shaq be as good as Wilt if he played in Wilt's era? Would Wilt dominate now?
> 
> And you can't take their accomplishments out of that context, because that betrays the nature of the argument. Or does it?
> 
> ...


Finally an argument that makes sense. I have tried to say this million times, that they played in different eras, so it all comparisons cannot be accurate.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Card Trader said:


> 7/26...just about out of the playoffs now.


So you were hiding when he scored 50 points on 17-33 shooting.


----------



## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Theonee said:


> So you were hiding when he scored 50 points on 17-33 shooting.


Are you talking about the game they lost? Umm..good point! :lol: 

Like I said, shooting his way out of the playoffs.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Card Trader said:


> Are you talking about the game they lost? Umm..good point! :lol:
> 
> Like I said, shooting his way out of the playoffs.


Lost or won, you just show up when he is having a bad shooting night and disappear when he is shooting good.


----------



## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Theonee said:


> Lost or won, you just show up when he is having a bad shooting night and disappear when he is shooting good.


Funny. The point wasn't that he doesn't have decent...17/33 is decent, not good, shooting nights, it's that he shoots so much and never gets his teammates in rythem and his selfish selfish play might cost his team a shot at the playoffs.


----------



## mattematikz (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Card Trader said:


> Funny. The point wasn't that he doesn't have decent...17/33 is decent, not good, shooting nights, it's that he shoots so much and never gets his teammates in rythem and his selfish selfish play might cost his team a shot at the playoffs.


yeah i can agree with you on kobe not getting his teammates in rhythm. i am a laker fan and from watching last night's game, kobe shot us out of a win last night. he pissed me off with his forced shots, he couldn't even pass it to the open man especially during the 4th quarter. but when he's on fire, it's an amazing thing to watch


----------



## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Card Trader said:


> Funny. The point wasn't that he doesn't have decent...17/33 is decent, not good, shooting nights, it's that he shoots so much and never gets his teammates in rythem and his selfish selfish play might cost his team a shot at the playoffs.


No, 45% is decent. When you shoot above 50%, its good.


----------



## arhie (Jul 4, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Its not about percetages people. Thats what you don't understand. Its all about pps. Points per shot. The higher it is, the more its worth giving the ball to you. Trust me its worth giving the ball to Kobe on that team, because other people don't produce when he gives it up. You look at Odom's nasty scoring efficiency and you see why you can't blame Kobe most of the time.


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Rawse said:


> Actually, you addressed me first, Fanboy, in an attempt to further along your little passive-aggressive grudge from several months back. Lest I forget those hysterical (not meaning "funny") private messages.
> 
> But if you're that worried about my moderator abilities (which you aren't, but playing the "You aren't acting like a MOD!" card is about the only thing you're capable of doing when you try coming after me and I respond), direct those complaints to the appropriate people...and live up to the description I just posted.


Dude, were you high or something when you typed this dumb ****?

Actually, you addressed me first with that stupid picture of yours on another thread that was about Kobe, and I let it go to just prove that i'm not as silly as you are. Then i come over to this thread and see you post the same **** to one of the posters just cuz he gave props to jordan23. And when did i pull the "mod" card? lol, your'e living in such funny world i tell ya that.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

Kobe the best talent in the game no doubt. Lakers to battle in the playoffs. The Stars are lined up for another show down.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

Cool. I wonder if they can take even a game from the Suns.


----------



## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

Will be a short playoffs for the Lakers.

Golden State, Lakers or Denver? I think we have the jackpot. Kobe got 50 again but it was almost again in a losing effort to one of the worst teams (tanking also) playing back to back.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

It seems unfair to expect one man to do so much every game for his team to have a chance of winning. Something tells me, even if he scored 50 a night in that Suns series it wont be enough to guarantee a win


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Amareca said:


> Will be a short playoffs for the Lakers.
> 
> Golden State, Lakers or Denver? I think we have the jackpot.


Pray you dont face GS


----------



## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

yeah, we'll probably get 1 gme out of that series. don't sell us so short though, we played great earlier in the season. there's no reason why, after a long rest, we won't be able to play well. 

im rooting for the spurs this year. i want to see finley win a title.


----------



## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



HB said:


> Pray you dont face GS


True I would rather have the Lakers, but why not GS? Because they beat us once when Richardson had a career shooting game?


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

Last year, everyone said the same thing about Lakers/Suns in that Lakers would have no chance...well, they definitely scared the hell out of Suns fans and were a few seconds away from winning that series.

Don't underestimate them...


----------



## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Basel57 said:


> Last year, everyone said the same thing about Lakers/Suns in that Lakers would have no chance...well, they definitely scared the hell out of Suns fans and were a few seconds away from winning that series.
> 
> Don't underestimate them...


With help from the refs, with no Amare, with no Kurt Thomas and after a strong regular season finish by the Lakers and a poor finish by the Suns (without Thomas) but yet you still lost no ifs and buts, you lost 3 straight.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

By the way, Kobe was extremely efficient tonight...

18/25 shooting, 50 points, 8 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals


----------



## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

They did shock everybody last postseason but I don't think they have enough defense to do much this time around. But you never know...Phil's a postseason genius and a hot Kobe can keep you in ball games. Although hot and Kobe is a huge rarity when LA faces good teams.


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

All signs point to a sweep. Don't tell us that though. We're blind Lakers fans, and I wouldn't have it any other way.  Also Laker fans, save yourself the time and don't take Amareca's bait.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Amareca said:


> True I would rather have the Lakers, but why not GS? Because they beat us once when Richardson had a career shooting game?


They match up well with the Suns and Mavs. Just because they are 8th doesnt mean they should be overlooked.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

Great shooting night for Kobe though. You wonder what he is going into the playoffs with because he has been so hot and cold lately. 7-26 and 9-30 recently but 14-25, 17-33 and now 18-25 from the field sprinkled in between those games.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

Suns fans seem quite arrogant considering the Suns haven't won squat either in the playoffs.

As I always say. They play the games for a reason. You never know what will happen. The Lakers could upset PHX IMO.


----------



## nitric (Dec 14, 2006)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

No chance for Lakers to upset the Suns. Amare is back to full form and Suns are going to make a run.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

18-25 FG :eek8: 

Kobe's an offensive monster.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



HB said:


> Pray you dont face GS


I also think GS could take the Suns out. GS has good shooters to match the Suns shooters one on one.


----------



## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



23AJ said:


> Suns fans seem quite arrogant considering the Suns haven't won squat either in the playoffs.
> 
> As I always say. They play the games for a reason. You never know what will happen. The Lakers could upset PHX IMO.


You haven't won a playoff series without Shaq in like what? 14 years or more?

We have made it to the WCF the last 2 years straight despite injuries, wow call me arrogant for not giving you a chance, now that we are even healthy and beat you easily 3 straight games in the season, only exception being the season opener, when we struggled all around against everyone and working Amare back into the rotation.

Oh and another thing

Lakers = 3rd worst record in the NBA since January, haven't beaten a +500 team since February. Excuse me..


----------



## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Well, he had a great night and the Lakers are in! I hope the Suns get them round 1....a 4 game sweep will be nice to get rest before facing SA.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

I can't believe it took Phil so long to realize he needed to bench Smush Parker.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Card Trader said:


> Well, he had a great night and the Lakers are in! I hope the Suns get them round 1....a 4 game sweep will be nice to get rest before facing SA.


Yeah, a 4-game sweep will be great for Kobe & Co. :biggrin:


----------



## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

The Lakers might...MIGHT....take 1 game from the Suns. It will be a cakewalk.


----------



## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

Just too good..


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

You never know, Laker might pull off a Saint Louis Cardinals.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

It is still possible we play Dallas...


----------



## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

Have the Lakers won 4 games since the all-star break?


----------



## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



23AJ said:


> Suns fans seem quite arrogant considering the Suns haven't won squat either in the playoffs.
> 
> As I always say. They play the games for a reason. You never know what will happen. The Lakers could upset PHX IMO.


Lets not generalize Suns fans, we all know its just that one guy


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Yao Mania said:


> Lets not generalize Suns fans, we all know its just that one guy


Actually two add Rasheed Wallace to that.:biggrin:


----------



## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

No because the Lakers have the 3rd worst record since the all star game and haven't beaten a .500+ team since february...something along those lines.

I hope they heat up somehow and give another gritty playoff performance like last year.


----------



## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

lakers' win also guarantees that phil will at least be .500 or better in every one of his coaching seasons.


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

The question now is "Will Kobe drop 50 in the playoffs?"

Has he ever dropped 50 in the playoffs, I don't think so.


This is going to be fun to watch!


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Amareca said:


> You haven't won a playoff series without Shaq in like what? 14 years or more?
> 
> We have made it to the WCF the last 2 years straight despite injuries, wow call me arrogant for not giving you a chance, now that we are even healthy and beat you easily 3 straight games in the season, only exception being the season opener, when we struggled all around against everyone and working Amare back into the rotation.
> 
> ...


:laugh: Shaq was a Laker for almost a decade and just recently left. The Suns still haven't even won a ring without Shaq.

BTW it was 12 years ago in the 95 playoffs when the Lakers beat Seattle.


----------



## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Sliccat said:


> It's always nice when somebody completely misses the point. Either way, why do I have to think something is smart just because Iverson says it?


i guess he though it would matter because for some people its hard to imagine that others dont blindly and obsessively believe their favorite player is perfect


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

Maybe Kobe should change his jersey# to 50...


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



compsciguy78 said:


> The question now is "Will Kobe drop 50 in the playoffs?"
> 
> Has he ever dropped 50 in the playoffs, I don't think so.
> 
> ...


He dropped 50 last year against the Suns, but they lost that game. I believe it was Game 6 (which went into overtime).


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

I can't believe I didn't remember that. 

It will be interesting to see what Kobe does in the playoffs. Last year he tried to play PG and it worked. Not sure if he will do the same again.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



compsciguy78 said:


> I can't believe I didn't remember that.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what Kobe does in the playoffs. Last year he tried to play PG and it worked. Not sure if he will do the same again.


I think he will...it worked last year, so I don't see why the Lakers wouldn't go back to doing it again this year. 

The only thing is that many times this season, Kobe would play facilitator for the first half, and then try to take over in the second half...that's nice and dandy, but sometimes even if his teammates were having horrible games, he would still wait until the second half to score.

He needs to know when he continue passing and letting his shots come to him and when he needs to just take over.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

Here's hoping the Lakers lose to the Kings and the Warriors sweep. Watching the Warriors take Phoenix to 7 games would be fun for me, as the faux MVP is powerless to stop the onslaught.


----------



## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

*IMO, which is just that -- IMO*

These lists are always subjective and relative to the times in which the players played, but IMO here is the short list for those who can make a legitimate argument for the best player in NBA history:

* Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
* Larry Bird
* Wilt Chamberlain
* Magic Johnson
* Michael Jordan
* Oscar Robertson
* Bill Russell


----------



## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



23AJ said:


> Suns fans seem quite arrogant considering the Suns haven't won squat either in the playoffs.
> 
> As I always say. They play the games for a reason. You never know what will happen. The Lakers could upset PHX IMO.



Way to generalize a whole fan base. Amareca is now the entire Suns fans group?

Holy **** man.


----------



## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

So who would LA fans actually prefer facing -> Dallas or Phx?


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Dr. Seuss said:


> Way to generalize a whole fan base. Amareca is now the entire Suns fans group?
> 
> Holy **** man.


He has a habit of doing that to Cavs fans, too. Oh well.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



SPMJ said:


> So who would LA fans actually prefer facing -> Dallas or Phx?


I'd rather face the Suns.


----------



## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

eh, nm.


----------



## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



SPMJ said:


> So who would LA fans actually prefer facing -> Dallas or Phx?


Phoenix. Dallas actually defends. Stopping Dirk doesn't guarantee you anything with Howard and Terry around. If you can keep Nash off his game, you can beat the Suns. Either way, we're probably going to lose in no more than 5 games.


----------



## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

Kobe scoring 50 is no longer a big deal to me. I just dont understand how he seems to always get exactly 50 or 60...not 54 or 53 or 59


----------



## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Geaux Tigers said:


> Kobe scoring 50 is no longer a big deal to me. I just dont understand how he seems to always get exactly 50 or 60...not 54 or 53 or 59



You do know they teach addition in highschool, right?

jk =)


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

I'd rather face Dallas. I still think the reason the Lakers can't beat Phoenix is they are not strong enough defensively to stop the Suns in a 7 game series, along with not having consistent offensive players. Golden State might not be a great defensive team, but they can go toe to toe with the Suns offensively and beat them (at least IMO).

The Mavs would beat the Lakers, but I feel if Kobe goes off, we have more chances of them going cold offensively than the Suns.


----------



## Gtown07 (Dec 10, 2003)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



HKF said:


> I'd rather face Dallas. I still think the reason the Lakers can't beat Phoenix is they are not strong enough defensively to stop the Suns in a 7 game series, along with not having consistent offensive players. Golden State might not be a great defensive team, but they can go toe to toe with the Suns offensively and beat them (at least IMO).
> 
> The Mavs would beat the Lakers, but I feel if Kobe goes off, we have more chances of them going cold offensively than the Suns.



Agree w you on a GS-PHO series. They certainly have the gunners and the coach to hang w the Suns. Ultimately the Suns would win but it's certainly a tougher match-up for the "Faux" MVP (love that) and the Suns.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



HKF said:


> I'd rather face Dallas. I still think the reason the Lakers can't beat Phoenix is they are not strong enough defensively to stop the Suns in a 7 game series, along with not having consistent offensive players. Golden State might not be a great defensive team, but they can go toe to toe with the Suns offensively and beat them (at least IMO).
> 
> The Mavs would beat the Lakers, but I feel if Kobe goes off, we have more chances of them going cold offensively than the Suns.


How I feel too, and Kobe has a better chance of going off against Dallas because nobody on that team takes guarding Kobe so personally as Raja Bell does. Raja Bell will clothesline and tackle Kobe before letting him score 50 on him ever since their little exchange of comments. And besides the personal thing, Raja is a more physical defender, while Howard is more of a lengthy defender who tries to give you space and close gaps with his athleticism and length. Kobe typically lights up those type of defenders far more often than the physical ones. 

Lamar Odom is the key though. If he can outplay Shawn Marion as bad as he did last year, while guys like Walton and company contribute, Lakers may pose a decent challenge. Fat chance of that though.


----------



## Fray (Dec 19, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



23AJ said:


> Suns fans seem quite arrogant considering the Suns haven't won squat either in the playoffs.
> 
> As I always say. They play the games for a reason. You never know what will happen. *The Lakers could upset PHX IMO*.


They COULD, but they won't.


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



SPMJ said:


> So who would LA fans actually prefer facing -> Dallas or Phx?


I think CDRacing answered this question perfectly. It's like asking whether you would rather be kicked in the balls or pepper sprayed in the face. Obviously I would take the pepper spray(Suns), but that doesn't mean it won't completely suck. The odds are overwhelming that the Lakers go home soon.


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

Phoenix still has not learned their lesson. Keep asking for Phil Jackson in the playoofs if you want....


----------



## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

phx had no center or PF in the playoffs last year. phil exposed them of that for a 7 games. phx has a center, pf and a full arsenal this year.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

REGULAR SEASON SERIES
Suns lead 3-1
Oct. 31: at Lakers 114, Suns 106
Mar. 4: at Suns 99, Lakers 94
Apr. 8: Suns 115 at Lakers 107
Apr. 13: at Suns 93, Lakers 85
All the games Phoenix won have been close games. They basically came to free throws towards the end of fourth quarter. I wouldn't call those cake walk. Lakers never got blown out by the Suns in those three games.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Theonee said:


> REGULAR SEASON SERIES
> Suns lead 3-1
> Oct. 31: at Lakers 114, Suns 106
> Mar. 4: at Suns 99, Lakers 94
> ...


Someone finally said it. People need to stop looking at how the Lakers play the rest of the league and start looking at how they match up against the Suns.


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

how many 50 pt games has it been this season?


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



DuMa said:


> phx had no center or PF in the playoffs last year. phil exposed them of that for a 7 games. phx has a center, pf and a full arsenal this year.


And the Suns have yet to play the Lakers with a full healthy lineup as well this year. What your point?? If theres anything this Laker team has proven this year, its that we play to the level of our competition.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Drewbs said:


> how many 50 pt games has it been this season?


10.


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Basel57 said:


> I think he will...it worked last year, so I don't see why the Lakers wouldn't go back to doing it again this year.
> 
> The only thing is that many times this season, Kobe would play facilitator for the first half, and then try to take over in the second half...that's nice and dandy, but sometimes even if his teammates were having horrible games, he would still wait until the second half to score.
> 
> He needs to know when he continue passing and letting his shots come to him and when he needs to just take over.


It worked last year because they could run the ball through Odom and Kwame because Phoenix had no inside defense whatsoever and Odom was able to simply abuse Marion w/ his size and length. 

Kwame is going to get dominated by Amare though. 

The problem with Kobe's game these days is simply that he doesn't maximize his presence on the floor. This was in last years playoffs as well. imo, Kobe doesn't need to be a facilitator, but when hes made into the pure scorer to the extent that he has been lately, it makes his game so predictable. When hes hot, you KNOW hes going to be shoot it if he catches the ball anywhere 18 feet and under. Really, he needs to pass more, not in the sense that he catches the ball, waits for a double and passes to an open man, imo, that doesn't put any pressure on the defense, but I'd rather see him passing when hes in that attack mode. There would simply be no way to stop him in those situations.

I have no idea if that made any sense at all.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

Amare shot 4-16 against the Lakers bigs WITHOUT Kwame last time they played. Turiaf held him in check and Kwame is a MUCH better man defender than Turiaf. Im not worried about Amare. Im more worried about the Suns scrubs getting off on us. For some reason this Laker team always lets the least likely players have career night on them.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Sir Patchwork said:


> How I feel too, and Kobe has a better chance of going off against Dallas because nobody on that team takes guarding Kobe so personally as Raja Bell does. Raja Bell will clothesline and tackle Kobe before letting him score 50 on him ever since their little exchange of comments. And besides the personal thing, Raja is a more physical defender, while Howard is more of a lengthy defender who tries to give you space and close gaps with his athleticism and length. Kobe typically lights up those type of defenders far more often than the physical ones.
> 
> Lamar Odom is the key though. If he can outplay Shawn Marion as bad as he did last year, while guys like Walton and company contribute, Lakers may pose a decent challenge. Fat chance of that though.


With the way Barbosa has been playing and with Amare back, the Lakers would be looking at gettng swept. The Warriors bring Baron Davis, Jason Richardson, Stephen Jackson, Al Harrington, Monta Ellis, Matt Barnes, Sarunas Jasikevicius, Andris Biedrins to the floor. I mean damn the Warriors have some serious talent and had it not been for the injuries this is the 6 seed in the West. 

I want them to play Phoenix so Stephen Jackson can pop Raja Bell in the mouth. Not to mention against the Warriors, Nash has no one to guard. He would get ISO'd to death.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

Kwame's interior defense isn't bad at all...I don't think Amare will dominate us...Kwame's defended Duncan well...he's defended KG well...don't see why he can't guard Amare well.

In 4 games against the Lakers this season, Amare has averaged 14.25 PPG (on 38% shooting), and 9.25 RBG. Not exactly dominating. The guy dominating us is Steve Nash because we had Smush Parker guarding him...

Oh, and if you don't want to count Amare's first game since he was still getting in the swing of things, then Amare's numbers look like this:

17 PPG, 35% shooting, 12 RPG.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



HKF said:


> With the way Barbosa has been playing and with Amare back, the Lakers would be looking at gettng swept. The Warriors bring Baron Davis, Jason Richardson, Stephen Jackson, Al Harrington, Monta Ellis, Matt Barnes, Sarunas Jasikevicius, Andris Biedrins to the floor. I mean damn the Warriors have some serious talent and had it not been for the injuries this is the 6 seed in the West.
> 
> I want them to play Phoenix so Stephen Jackson can pop Raja Bell in the mouth. Not to mention against the Warriors, Nash has no one to guard. He would get ISO'd to death.


That is scary. Yeah if Warriors claim the 7th seed, Phoenix be afraid, be very afraid. Warriors are a team loaded with talents and nothing to loose.


----------



## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

*Kobe Bryant vs. Michael Jordan*

As for this comparison, all I will say is that Kobe Bryant is basically a "mortal" version of Michael Jordan. Bryant can do the things Jordan did and in glimpses even reminds you of Air Jordan, however Bryant cannot do it with the same level of efficiency or consistency that MJ did. Also, the things that Kobe is doing today are the things MJ did in his early 20s.

And nothing against Bryant fans, but how can you be considered arguably the greatest player ever when on a year-by-year basis you're not even the best player in the league (and in the first eight years of his career, Kobe wasn't even the best player on his _team_)?


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: Kobe Bryant vs. Michael Jordan*



Najee said:


> As for this comparison, all I will say is that Kobe Bryant is basically a "mortal" version of Michael Jordan. Bryant can do the things Jordan did and in glimpses even reminds you of Air Jordan, however Bryant cannot do it with the same level of efficiency or consistency that MJ did. Also, the things that Kobe is doing today are the things MJ did in his early 20s.
> 
> And nothing against Bryant fans, but how can you be considered arguably the *greatest player ever* when on a year-by-year basis you're not even the best player in the league (and in the first eight years of his career, Kobe wasn't even the best player on his _team_)?


The thread was started by Kobe hater to be sarcastic.


----------



## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



HKF said:


> With the way Barbosa has been playing and with Amare back, the Lakers would be looking at gettng swept. The Warriors bring Baron Davis, Jason Richardson, Stephen Jackson, Al Harrington, Monta Ellis, Matt Barnes, Sarunas Jasikevicius, Andris Biedrins to the floor. I mean damn the Warriors have some serious talent and had it not been for the injuries this is the 6 seed in the West.
> 
> I want them to play Phoenix so Stephen Jackson can pop Raja Bell in the mouth. Not to mention against the Warriors, Nash has no one to guard. He would get ISO'd to death.


Agreed, GS is very dangerous, I think they have a good chance of beating the suns if they play them. They have enough offensive weapons to keep up with the Suns in terms of scoring.


----------



## Mohamed_#8 (Jan 24, 2006)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

Lol tell me about it, Suns fans these days seem to be so arrogant towards us Laker fans.

What the **** have you won? Kobe has more rings than your whole damn franchise. Actually, Samaki Walker has more championship rings than the ****ing Phoenix Suns.

I hope we play those losers in the first round so we can humiliate them again, and this time we won't blow a 3-1 series lead.


----------



## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

Aw, shucks--L.A. fans vs Phoenix fans. It's on now.


----------



## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Mohamed_#8 said:


> Lol tell me about it, Suns fans these days seem to be so arrogant towards us Laker fans.
> 
> What the **** have you won? Kobe has more rings than your whole damn franchise. Actually, Samaki Walker has more championship rings than the ****ing Phoenix Suns.
> 
> I hope we play those losers in the first round so we can humiliate them again, and this time we won't blow a 3-1 series lead.



Once again, it was one person. Seriously, some of you need to read more carefully. Make yourself look stupid when you say something like this.

Plus, haven't we been through this for last few yrs? It's Amareca. IGNORE HIM ALREADY. Is it that ****ing hard?


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Mohamed_#8 said:


> Lol tell me about it, Suns fans these days seem to be so arrogant towards us Laker fans.
> 
> What the **** have you won? Kobe has more rings than your whole damn franchise. Actually, Samaki Walker has more championship rings than the ****ing Phoenix Suns.
> 
> I hope we play those losers in the first round so we can humiliate them again, and this time we won't blow a 3-1 series lead.


if the Lakers even make it.... I love the hate that spews forth from fans of teams that aren't even near contention. Too bad you guys don't have Shaq, kinda wish you had a do over on that trade huh?


----------



## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



HKF said:


> With the way Barbosa has been playing and with Amare back, the Lakers would be looking at gettng swept. The Warriors bring Baron Davis, Jason Richardson, Stephen Jackson, Al Harrington, Monta Ellis, Matt Barnes, Sarunas Jasikevicius, Andris Biedrins to the floor. I mean damn the Warriors have some serious talent and had it not been for the injuries this is the 6 seed in the West.
> 
> I want them to play Phoenix so Stephen Jackson can pop Raja Bell in the mouth. Not to mention against the Warriors, Nash has no one to guard. He would get ISO'd to death.



Bell apologized for what he did, and he and Kobe were seen talking and laughing together before and after a game 2 weeks ago. Since his fans take it so personally what he did, some of you might forgive and forget, or move on, since Kobe did. I mean, he's your hero right? Follow suit, like you guys did before.

And some of you act like women around here holding on to **** like Nash's MVP. Give it up already. No, I didn't think he should've won it last yr, so don't even go there.

As far for GS or LA, go. I don't care who the Suns face. But I don't think GS would have that kind of success on the Suns. Phil Jackson and Kobe led team scare me more


----------



## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



DuMa said:


> phx had no center or PF in the playoffs last year. phil exposed them of that for a 7 games. phx has a center, pf and a full arsenal this year.



Don't forget. No Thomas, nor Amare for the Suns last year and Leandro was not playing this good last time around.


----------



## kisstherim (Jul 15, 2004)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Mohamed_#8 said:


> Lol tell me about it, *Suns fans *these days seem to be so arrogant towards us Laker fans.


Making groundless generalization is a bad habit, bro.



Mohamed_#8 said:


> What the **** have you won? Kobe has more rings than your whole damn franchise. Actually, Samaki Walker has more championship rings than the ****ing Phoenix Suns.


By this criterion, it's strange how the **** the Celtics fans manage to be much less arrogant than *some* Lakers fans.



Mohamed_#8 said:


> I hope we play those losers in the first round so we can humiliate them again, *and this time we won't blow a 3-1 series lead.*


Because you simply can't make it?


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

Caron Butler, the now all-star, whose ppg went up after leaving the Lakers(coincidence?)

Lamar Odom, should have been all-star with Miami, who is a mismatch at the forward position.


Kobe didn't have good teammates?


----------



## shakespeare (Nov 2, 2006)

*It's Time For The Lakers To Be Honest*



> It's Time For The Lakers To Be Honest
> 
> 
> excerpt from article:
> ...


Good article.

Contrare to popular belief, Kobe is the only way in LA.

:worthy:


----------



## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

*Re: It's Time For The Lakers To Be Honest*

Gave no actual suggestions on how to improve the team. Typical sports article, all about the best player including a lot of vague comparisons to past teams. No actual meat to the article. Pretty much a waste of time to read.


----------



## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

Lamar was never an all-star.


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: It's Time For The Lakers To Be Honest*

No, he can't turn Kwame Brown and Luke Walton into Shawn Marion. Nobody expects the Lakers to be a 60 win team. But they barely just now clinched a playoff spot and are going to be a 7th or 8th seed, out of 16 teams. With a hall-of-fame coach who has only missed the playoffs once in his career...


----------



## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

Caron Bulter wouldn't have been an All-star in the west.

He also didn't have the ball handling skills to run PG "that year". Or any type of jump shot which is essential to the triangle. (As we can see when Lakers scrubs brick wide open jump shots.)

Odom hasn't been voted all-star or played in an all-star game since the rookie challange in like 2000 or something. Even then he wasn't an all-star and to my knowledges he hasn't ever been voted in since. Are you sure were talking about the same Lamar Odom? Or are you just making assumptions to troll or bait an argument?


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: It's Time For The Lakers To Be Honest*

Anyone who actually knows basketball and is without bias can tell you that the Lakers are seriously lacking talent. Phil and Kobe have been turning water into wine for almost 2 years now and it's catching up to them. It doesn't help that they were hit with injuries a lot this year.


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

Why are you knocking Caron down? He's not good enough?
He wouldn't be an all-star in the WEst? Everything somebody does to help Kobe and the Lakers is thrown in the toilet.

There are always millions of excuses.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

That was also the year Kobe was hurt the entire season with plantar fasciitus, which is why he had the worst season of his prime career.


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Re: It's Time For The Lakers To Be Honest*



Hibachi! said:


> No, he can't turn Kwame Brown and Luke Walton into Shawn Marion. Nobody expects the Lakers to be a 60 win team. But they barely just now clinched a playoff spot and are going to be a 7th or 8th seed, out of 16 teams. With a hall-of-fame coach who has only missed the playoffs once in his career...


And the best player in the entire league. It just goes to show that players win games, not coaches.
A good coach will help, but you need the players to win championships.


----------



## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

Kobe is great as he is has one big problem
and that's holdin on to the ball too long

Arenas will either shoot or pass or drive to shoot or pass

Kobe is gonna have the ball 20 out of 24 seconds


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: It's Time For The Lakers To Be Honest*

A good coach certainly helps, you can have all the talent in the world and still suck unless the right coach comes along. I'm not saying the Lakers have a bunch of talent, but they certainly have talent higher than that of a 7th or 8th seed if they play right. 

Second of all, what's with the rush in Kobe threads all of a sudden?


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

I honestly think Kobe is the best player in the game, but I also think he shoots way too much.

The last game the next best player had 10 shots! 

I agree with Barkley that if you shoot enough shots anybody could get 50 points. If Yao Ming shot 39 shots, mofo would be pulling 50 every night!


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



Sir Patchwork said:


> That was also the year Kobe was hurt the entire season with plantar fasciitus, which is why he had the worst season of his prime career.


Would you want to play with Kobe?

I would rather be teammates with 20 other players over Kobe. He might be the best player, but he wouldn't be the best teammate or winner.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



fjkdsi said:


> Kobe is gonna have the ball 20 out of 24 seconds


I would like to see a stat for this, because I don't think it's true. That's more like Allen Iverson. Kobe is a chucker if anything, and it doesn't take long for him to find a shot he likes. He doesn't waste time dribbling around when he can rise up and shoot a shot he believes he can make at almost any time.


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

I made this thread because fans were talking about him never having good teammates, but nobody mentioned Caron.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



compsciguy78 said:


> Would you want to play with Kobe?


Absolutely. Him, Duncan, Shaquille and Nash would top my list. Him because of the attention he draws and how many open looks I'd get. Duncan because he'd make me look like a half decent player on both ends. Shaquille because of the open shots I'd get and Nash because he will find you and put you in comfortable positions to score. Players make their teammates better in different ways.


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Re: It's Time For The Lakers To Be Honest*

I think most coaches are unnecessary if you have smart players. The problem is most players are unaware or rely on the coach. If every player thought the game through like Nash and Bird you wouldn't need good coaches.


----------



## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



compsciguy78 said:


> Why are you knocking Caron down? He's not good enough?
> He wouldn't be an all-star in the WEst? Everything somebody does to help Kobe and the Lakers is thrown in the toilet.
> 
> There are always millions of excuses.



Caron is one of my favorite players in the NBA. I wanted the Lakers to keep him because I knew he'd be something great in the NBA one day.

He wasn't an all-star caliber player when he was on the Lakers, and he never would have been an all-star in the west. You are aware of Caron's competition for all-star in the west? What all-star in the west should Caron have been put over? Or do you even know who his competition would have been. (Probably not since you didn't even know Lamar isn't an all-star).

I'm afraid that you have to be the least intelligent troll thats posted hypothetical questions on here if you cant read simple a simple paragraph and respond with a logic answer. At least the others like you try to post something witty.


----------



## Card Trader (Apr 17, 2006)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

Suns in 5...at worst.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: It's Time For The Lakers To Be Honest*



Hibachi! said:


> Second of all, what's with the rush in Kobe threads all of a sudden?


You know playoff time is coming.


----------



## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

*Re: It's Time For The Lakers To Be Honest*

Is anybody actually claiming that he has good teammates?


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

First off, I'm not a troll you <strike>freaking moron</strike>. I'm promoting conversation is that ok with you? If you don't like it go somewhere else and stop insulting me because I know more about the Lakers then you will ever know.


----------



## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



compsciguy78 said:


> First off, I'm not a troll you freaking moron. I'm promoting conversation is that ok with you? If you don't like it go somewhere else and stop insulting me because I know more about the Lakers then you will ever know.



I'm the moron? You can't even post a complete sentence with facts and logic to represent your point. Your first topic wasn't even written with correct information about the player comparison.

You know so much yet don't know Lamar's all-star status? Or Caron's competition for All-star if he had remained in the west? For some reason I doubt your knowledge.


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



compsciguy78 said:


> Last year he tried to play PG and it worked.


Yeah, he played great at PG to the tune of a whopping 5.1 apg and an embarrassing 1.09:1 assist-to-turnover ratio.


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



compsciguy78 said:


> *Caron Butler, the now all-star, whose ppg went up after leaving the Lakers(coincidence?)
> *
> Lamar Odom, should have been all-star with Miami, who is a mismatch at the forward position.
> 
> ...


Caron Butler, the now all-star, was mediocre with the Heat when they had Wade as well. (coincidence?)

Besides, who would Butler have gotten the nod over in the west?

At the forward spot, Nowitzki? Duncan? Garnett? Anthony? Brand?


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Yeah, he played great at PG to the tune of a whopping 5.1 apg and an embarrassing 1.09:1 assist-to-turnover ratio.


facilitators never average a lot of assists in the triangle because they don't dominate the ball in the offense.


----------



## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Card Trader said:


> Are you talking about the game they lost? Umm..good point! :lol:
> 
> Like I said, shooting his way out of the playoffs.




i'm just curious. are you a fan b/c you love the game itself, or b/c you just love to hate and talk mess? serious question.


----------



## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Amareca said:


> Will be a short playoffs for the Lakers.
> 
> Golden State, Lakers or Denver? I think we have the jackpot. Kobe got 50 again but it was almost again in a losing effort to one of the worst teams (tanking also) playing back to back.


for a team who has REALLY NEVER WON NOTHING
you are awfully cocky ....now wonder people just have you on 
ignore


----------



## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

*Re: It's Time For The Lakers To Be Honest*



Hibachi! said:


> A good coach certainly helps, you can have all the talent in the world and still suck unless the right coach comes along. I'm not saying the Lakers have a bunch of talent, but they certainly have talent higher than that of a 7th or 8th seed if they play right.
> 
> Second of all, what's with the rush in Kobe threads all of a sudden?



who should they be better than in the west? denver? houston? utah? the clippers hornets, warriors, and kings all arguably have more talent than the fakers. i'm also guessing you still think 300 is an all time great too. right up there with titanic, no? well, if you're a wizards fan you already know about sinking ships . . . (though we all miss out this year with arenas out).


----------



## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

by the way, if the Lakers dont play the Suns, id rather Golden State move on, and as much as i hate the Nuggets even them....
you can go 80-2 in a season but it really means **** if you get no title ...
eh


----------



## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

Was Caron also not a replacement player for the East?


----------



## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

it really doesnt matter who the Lakers play in the post-season, with Phil Jackson and Kobe on their side....ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE
but "haters" will never accept it so eh.....


----------



## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Dissonance19 said:


> Plus, haven't we been through this for last few yrs? It's Amareca. IGNORE HIM ALREADY. Is it that ****ing hard?


:laugh:


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



compsciguy78 said:


> Caron Butler, the now all-star, whose ppg went up after leaving the Lakers(coincidence?)
> 
> Lamar Odom, should have been all-star with Miami, who is a mismatch at the forward position.
> 
> ...


Its tough to find your niche when you play w/ the ulitmate gunner. If the Lakers are going to go w/ the Kobe shot-fest offense, then they need to build their team a la the Sixers team that made it to the Finals w/ AI. Basically a bunch of hustle defenders who don't need to touch the ball. Otherwise, the whole of the Lakers will always be less than the sum of its parts.


----------



## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Dissonance19 said:


> Once again, it was one person. Seriously, some of you need to read more carefully. Make yourself look stupid when you say something like this.
> 
> Plus, haven't we been through this for last few yrs? It's Amareca. IGNORE HIM ALREADY. Is it that ****ing hard?



you know it's gotten bad when your fellow fans call you out. ouch!


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



ElMarroAfamado said:


> for a team who has REALLY NEVER WON NOTHING
> you are awfully cocky ....now wonder people just have you on
> ignore


I guess it's fun for a fan of a team who wasn't won ONE single championship in, like, *38 years *to trash talk the Lakers...
:lol:


----------



## Javelin (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Card Trader said:


> Shooting his team out of the playoffs? Could it happen? Kobe has shot a TERRIBLE FG % lately...historically bad, now his team is in danger of not making the playoffs. Very MJ like


Kobe is nowhere near Michael statically but you can definitely compare him to Michael skill-wise, his clutch performance under pressure is just amazing, I would never say he's better than Michael since Jordan has the 6 championships, 5 reg season MVPs, and 6 finals MVPs, compared to Kobe's 3 rings and zero MVP's.

Kobe does have the edge over Jordan in that he won his first championship when he was only 22 years old compared to Jordan who got his at age 28.

I think LeBron will have a better chance of being compared to Jordan as he progresses.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Javelin said:


> Kobe is nowhere near Michael statically but you can definitely compare him to Michael skill-wise, *his clutch performance under pressure is just amazing,* I would never say he's better than Michael since Jordan has the 6 championships, 5 reg season MVPs, and 6 finals MVPs, compared to Kobe's 3 rings and zero MVP's.


Please direct me to the last time the Bull's Michael Jordan hit a game-winner while being double teamed...


----------



## Javelin (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



PauloCatarino said:


> Please direct me to the last time the Bull's Michael Jordan hit a game-winner while being double teamed...


I'm saying Kobe's clutch skills is just as good at MJ's


----------



## Tommy12 (Apr 16, 2007)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Javelin said:


> I'm saying Kobe's clutch skills is just as good at MJ's


Mabey even better.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

When are people going to realize that players improve. Dirk, Bosh, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Arenas, just to name a few are not the same player they were before.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

And if Arenas is good at making players betters, why hasn't he made Kwame into an All Star, and why hasn't Nash made Jalen Rose, Marcus Banks, etc better.


----------



## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



Theonee said:


> And if Arenas is good at making players betters, why hasn't he made Kwame into an All Star, and why hasn't Nash made Jalen Rose, Marcus Banks, etc better.


ridiculous statements.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Javelin said:


> I'm saying Kobe's clutch skills is just as good at MJ's


Sorry. Misunderstood your post. My bad.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



DuMa said:


> ridiculous statements.


Same as the thread starters. Only coaches make player better, saying some player made someone better is disrespectful towards the improved player, because it gives credit to other player, for the things the improved player achieved through his own hard work and dedication.


----------



## Kuskid (Aug 18, 2004)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



Theonee said:


> And if Arenas is good at making players betters, why hasn't he made Kwame into an All Star, and why hasn't Nash made Jalen Rose, Marcus Banks, etc better.


I think we're pretty much all in agreement that Steve Nash doesn't make his teammates better. Except those stupid Suns fans, but they're just in denial.


----------



## arhie (Jul 4, 2006)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

Bottom line is Caron Butler is still a 3rd player, he has potential to be the man, but it probably won't happen. Remember he was the leading scorer for all rookies in a draft class with the likes of Yao, Amare, Ginobili etc. The kid has talent. Honestly Lakers would have been better this year without Kwame, and with Butler. However, last year in the playoffs if they did not have Kwame it would been a 4 game sweep.


----------



## Kuskid (Aug 18, 2004)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



Theonee said:


> When are people going to realize that players improve. Dirk, Bosh, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Arenas, just to name a few are not the same player they were before.


I'm with you here, anybody who saw Caron in a Lakers uni would agree that he wasn't the player then that he is today. His game is vastly better than it was 2(?) seasons ago.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



compsciguy78 said:


> Caron Butler, the now all-star, whose ppg went up after leaving the Lakers(coincidence?)


Caron Butler had his best year in the Lakers till that point.



> Lamar Odom, should have been all-star with Miami, who is a mismatch at the forward position.


You don't know who Lamar Odom is.



> Kobe didn't have good teammates?


Nope.


----------



## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



compsciguy78 said:


> First off, I'm not a troll you freaking moron. I'm promoting conversation is that ok with you? If you don't like it go somewhere else and stop insulting me because I know more about the Lakers then you will ever know.


you are a troll, unlike other trolls you are worse because you honestly think you are offering unbiased opinions. There is no difference between you and Mack Ten or hotel312.

If you want credability, as less have the balls like Dynasty Raider to admit you are hater and stop acting like you are promoting debate.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



compsciguy78 said:


> I honestly think Kobe is the best player in the game, but I also think he shoots way too much.
> 
> The last game the next best player had 10 shots!
> 
> I agree with Barkley that if you shoot enough shots anybody could get 50 points. *If Yao Ming shot 39 shots*, mofo would be pulling 50 every night!


But he can't.
If we follow your logic, 
1. Mikki Moore, NJ	60.29
2. Dwight Howard, ORL	60.19
3. Andris Biedrins, GS	60.07 
are all shooting above 60%, these three guys could easily average 60 a game, if they shot 39 points.

Kobe this year average close to 23 shots per game,where did Barkley get 39 a game from.


----------



## Blink4 (Jan 17, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Jordan23Forever said:


> Yeah, he played great at PG to the tune of a whopping 5.1 apg and an embarrassing 1.09:1 assist-to-turnover ratio.


Do you actually watch games or do you just beat off to box scores afterwards?


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

Sad that these threads have to turn into pissing contests.


----------



## d_jizzle (Feb 12, 2007)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



CDRacingZX6R said:


> Caron Bulter wouldn't have been an All-star in the west.
> 
> He also didn't have the ball handling skills to run PG "that year". Or any type of jump shot which is essential to the triangle. (As we can see when Lakers scrubs brick wide open jump shots.)
> 
> Odom hasn't been voted all-star or played in an all-star game since the rookie challange in like 2000 or something. Even then he wasn't an all-star and to my knowledges he hasn't ever been voted in since. Are you sure were talking about the same Lamar Odom? Or are you just making assumptions to troll or bait an argument?


Well, the Lakers didn't run the triangle that season Caron was there because Phil Jackson wasn't the coach. Rudy T was. Sorry to nitpick =P....

Either way, that Lakers team that season was a mess. A bad year for the organisation, a bad year for Kobe and bad year for everyone on that team.


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

Just ignore the flip flopper guys. He thinks that jumping back and forth makes him objective. Stick to the impartial haters like Hibachi/SPMJ/etc. for debate.


----------



## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



d_jizzle said:


> Well, the Lakers didn't run the triangle that season Caron was there because Phil Jackson wasn't the coach. Rudy T was. Sorry to nitpick =P....
> 
> Either way, that Lakers team that season was a mess. A bad year for the organisation, a bad year for Kobe and bad year for everyone on that team.



Thats true. But before Caron was traded he was being told by Jackson, etc that they might keep him on the team. (Or that they would), and my argument was that he simply didn't hit open shots at that point in his career. Something they might have considered keeping him for after Phil took over if he had. He was a back door slasher, a good one at that, but that was about it. He also had poor ball handling skills up to that point, and wouldn't have made a very good PG that season. (As in the season Phil took over).

Laker's needed a big man, so they traded for one. Caron was good, but not great then. And still isn't great now. Although I'd rather have him than Kwame, I'm also not the GM.

:wink:


----------



## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

Sad all Lakers fans can come up with is, not having won a championship etc.. Stop living in the past, we care about the present or at least recent past.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Amareca said:


> Sad all Lakers fans can come up with is, not having won a championship etc.. Stop living in the past, we care about the present or at least recent past.


The amusing part is: you badmouth the Lakers like you are some freaking Celtics fan. You are just a player fanboy who will never post here again if the Suns don't win a championship in steve Nash's tenure...


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



KennethTo said:


> you are a troll, unlike other trolls you are worse because you honestly think you are offering unbiased opinions. There is no difference between you and Mack Ten or hotel312.
> 
> If you want credability, as less have the balls like Dynasty Raider to admit you are hater and stop acting like you are promoting debate.


You are a freaking troll. I don't need credibility from you? Who the **** are you? 
Nobody can comment about Kobe without being a troll? Is that how it works?


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*



Amareca said:


> Sad all Lakers fans can come up with is, not having won a championship etc.. Stop living in the past, we care about the present or at least recent past.


In the recent past, the Suns haven't done much of anything.


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



SeaNet said:


> Its tough to find your niche when you play w/ the ulitmate gunner. If the Lakers are going to go w/ the Kobe shot-fest offense, then they need to build their team a la the Sixers team that made it to the Finals w/ AI. Basically a bunch of hustle defenders who don't need to touch the ball. Otherwise, the whole of the Lakers will always be less than the sum of its parts.


This board is a mockery. You say anything that doesn't reflect Kobe in a positive light and you are a Kobe hater and troll. 

And then you argue with Kobe fans who know absolutely nothing except Kobe and its hilarious.


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

Kobe fans completely missed the point of this thread again.

I was expecting for a rational Kobe fan to say "Maybe if we kept Caron and Lamar with Kobe the Lakers would have been better."

Instead you get Kobe fans saying "Caron wouldn't be an all-star in the west" and basically downplaying his importance. 

Kobe fans constantly complain about lack of help, but at the same time can't see whats in front of them. Its funny to me and I love listening to the irrational comments by most of his fans.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



compsciguy78 said:


> Kobe fans completely missed the point of this thread again.
> 
> I was expecting for a rational Kobe fan to say "Maybe if we kept Caron and Lamar with Kobe the Lakers would have been better."
> 
> ...


So, does this mean you are NOT a Kobe hater and troll?


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

I'm not a Kobe troll, I just point out that blaring truths that seem to elude most of his fans. Its almost like they are living in the false light that is Kobe's hype and legacy, which is built by irrational fans and media. 

Follow the true light fellow basketball fans.


----------



## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

kobe had caron. now he doesnt. caron isnt the same player now he was two years ago. its not a coincidence that a young player got better during an off season, especially considering what i have heard about him being a hard worker.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



compsciguy78 said:


> I'm not a Kobe troll, I just point out that blaring truths that seem to elude most of his fans. Its almost like they are living in the false light that is Kobe's hype and legacy, which is built by irrational fans and media.
> 
> Follow the true light fellow basketball fans.


Now, you are REALLY getting desperate (sp?)...


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

Whatever...

It amazes me how many people have these false ideals of Kobe and his team. 
Many of his fans really believe he should shoot this much. Its funny.


----------



## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

Caron was quoted as saying something about not getting the ball enough in LA. It was getting pretty apparent that he didn't want to stay there.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



compsciguy78 said:


> Whatever...
> 
> It amazes me how many people have these false ideals of Kobe and his team.
> Many of his fans really believe he should shoot this much. Its funny.


you know, it's hard for me to believe you are a Lakers fan... Because you really don't seem to know much about the Lakers' team...

Well, maybe i'm mistaken and you are NOT a Lakers' fan afterall...


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

Caron wasn't as complete a player as he was in LA, nor was he given the oppurtunity. It's hard enough for Odom to assert himself, but Caron is a penetrator/isolation type of player, and he wouldn't have had the same oppurtunities he does in LA. I don't think this is fair for either player, Kobe or Caron.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



compsciguy78 said:


> Kobe fans completely missed the point of this thread again.
> 
> I was expecting for a rational Kobe fan to say "Maybe if we kept Caron and Lamar with Kobe the Lakers would have been better."
> 
> ...


For most posters here, their basketball world revolves around a particular player or set of players who in their eyes can do no wrong. So whenever something is wrong w/ their teams, it simply has to be because of the other players.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



SeaNet said:


> For most posters here, their basketball world revolves around a particular player or set of players who in their eyes can do no wrong. So whenever something is wrong w/ their teams, it simply has to be because of the other players.


Are you talking about Timberwolves fans, SeaNet? 

Or Nets fans?


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

Here are the facts about Butler, first of all he was a 1st round 10th pick.
He averaged 9 points the year before he came to Lakers. With lakers he averaged 15.5 points per game while attempting 13 shots per game playing 35 minutes per game.
Now with Washington this year he is averaging 19 points per game while attempting 15 shots per game playing 39 minutes per game.
So do the math.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



SeaNet said:


> For most posters here, their basketball world revolves around a particular player or set of players who in their eyes can do no wrong. So whenever something is wrong w/ their teams, it simply has to be because of the other players.


Visit the Lakers forum, Laker fans are not blind, no one is excempt from criticism, when they do something wrong.
But Lakers fans criticise because they care for the team, where as Haters do so to HATE the player.


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



Theonee said:


> Visit the Lakers forum, Laker fans are not blind, no one is excempt from criticism, when they do something wrong.
> But Lakers fans criticise because they care for the team, where as Haters do so to HATE the player.


Seriously. We have a whole thread dedicated to the criticism of Kobe's defense. When Kobe starts chucking like the Houston game, he got ripped apart on the gamethread. Stop generalizing. compsciguy, you damn well why you started this thread. It's the same reason you start every Laker/Kobe related thread. For the sole purpose of baiting the fan base. I remember at least two different times on the Lakers forum when you tried to jump back on the bandwagon. You are mocked because you are a flip flopper, bandwagon jumper. Like I said earlier, when guys like Hibachi and SPMJ rip on Kobe, we will participate in discussion. Some Laker fans take it to extreme because not all fanbases are perfect. Most of the fans like me respect what they have to say and even agree with them on occassion. They are quality posters who dislike Kobe. No big deal. So that tosses out your theory about every bad thing said about Kobe is labeled as "trolling". Ditch the little innocent, "I was just trying to start quality discussion" because most of your threads result in "Kobe fans this.." and "Kobe fans that...".


----------



## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



compsciguy78 said:


> Whatever...
> 
> It amazes me how many people have these false ideals of Kobe and his team.
> Many of his fans really believe he should shoot this much. Its funny.


Which fans believe he should shoot this much? I don't know one person (coming from this board) that thinks Kobe should shoot this much.


----------



## joehoo (Apr 17, 2007)

*Great MJ v. Kobe article*

*Kobe Bryant is still not as good as Michael Jordan - Separating fact from fiction 4/16/07*

It's begun again. Kobe Bryant fans are like flashers. It's derived from the arrogance of Celtics and Lakers fans from the 80s. They got so used to being the best and having the best of everything in basketball, that when Michael Jordan came into the league, it was often fans and writers from these towns who shot at him the most. There was "you can't score this much and yet your team will still win." When Jordan won championships, to people in Boston and LA it was only because the talent level of the entire NBA suddenly diminished greatly between 1990 and 1991. Yeah, that's right, overnight. 

When Kobe Bryant came into the NBA, Laker fans had their chance. They had their idol to hold up as being better than Michael Jordan. It started in full force in 1999, and didn't stop until about 2004. Kobe Bryant was "like a young Michael Jordan, only better!" Forget that Kobe's fans usually had no idea just how good MJ was from 84-91, as most memories we get to see of him are from his later years. Kobe fans assume that if Kobe can jump like MJ in 1996 then "he's just as good of a dunker as Michael Jordan." 

You heard it all. Laker fans loved to remind you that "Kobe has three rings at age 22, Michael Jordan had none." This of course completely ignores that Michael Jordan was the best player on his title teams, and Kobe was second fiddle to one of the best big men of all time. O'neal won the 2000 NBA MVP and all three Finals MVPs during the Lakers title run. So Kobe Bryant played Jon Havlicek during the Russell years, congratulations. 

But Kobe fans went away. Kobe turned 23 and 24, ages at which MJ started to take off to even higher heights. Kobe, on the other hand, failed to look Jordanesque in a 2003 series loss to San Antonio, while watching counterpart Manu Ginobili go off and become a force against the Lakers. Then he shot 37% in 2004 v. the Pistons, and his fans really went away. 

But they come back, all the time. If he has a 40 PPG month, they're back and he's Jordan only better all over again. Forget that Kobe fans who compare Kobe to Jordan were nowhere to be found in 2005, or after game 7 last year v. the Suns. When Kobe plays more like Michael Jordan mixed with Reggie Miller and Haywoode Workman, those games don't count. The comparison Kobe Bryant fans like is clear:

Kobe's best games v. MJ's entire career

The worst Kobe > Jordan article I've ever read

Jemele Hill of the Booya network, or ESPN, probably wrote the worst Kobe > MJ article I've ever read in my life. First, the media hegemons goal is clear in making Kobe, or anybody for that matter into the next MJ. See, to the corporate hegemon, MJ = Cash, BIG cash, unprecedented cash. Therefore if you can get Kobe or Lebron to = MJ in the public's eyes, then Kobe will = the same cash for the same people that you and I will never see on TV. Second, if you look at Hill's picture you can't imagine her having seen MJ in his athletic prime day in and day out. 

So, with that, let's delve into her argument (Hill's article displayed in italic quotes):

"Kobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan. Not more successful. Hasn't had a bigger economic impact. Hasn't won more MVPs. Hasn't won more titles. But he's a better player. Kobe can do everything Michael did, and even a few things Michael couldn't do."

Ok, so basically, he's not really better by any measure. He doesn't win more, he's never won as the best player on his team. He doesn't win more MVPs or defensive player of the year awards. He's not better statistically (if you compare Kobe and MJ's stats at the same ages, MJ wins in a landslide). So he's better because you think he is. Well that's great logic. Guess what? George Bush isn't President. See, whether or not anyone likes our system, he was "awarded" President, he lives in the White House, he acts as President, but I don't think he's President, so he's not. See how that works?

"Kobe is just as good a defender. His killer instinct is just as pronounced. He can shoot, finish and explode. And just like Jordan, the more he's pissed off, the more unstoppable he is."

Kobe is just as good a defender? Really? By what measure. Michael Jordan has 1 Defensive Player of the Year Award, Kobe has none. 

From ages 21-29 (since MJ entered the league at 21 and Kobe turns 29 shortly after this season is over), Kobe Bryant has averaged 1.65 steals per game and 0.58 blocks per game. Jordan, again, at the same ages, averaged 2.75 steals per game and 1.07 blocks per game. 

So Jemele has proven one thing here, that it's great to have an opinion. Your opinion is nice Jemele, but we've just seen, by the numbers, that Kobe is not close to the defender MJ is. I've never seen anyone even suggest Kobe Bryant for a Defensive Player of the Year Award. 

Next let's talk about Kobe's alleged "explosion." If you've ever watched Jordan in the late 80s and early 90s you know that Kobe does not dunk like, nor does he explode like Michael Jordan. Jordan's game was about tomahawk dunks and taking two and three defenders to the hole for facial jams over contact from multiple players. That's why MJ shot 53.5% in 88, 53.8% in 89, 52.6% in 90, 53.9% in 91, and 51.9% in 1992. 

See Jordan had one glaring difference from today's leapers like Bryant, McGrady and James. His lightning quick first step. Take Kobe Bryant. Now, give him Isiah Thomas' first step and you have Michael Jordan in his athletic prime (87-92). Jordan was able to blow by his on-ball defender so quickly and have such a running start that taking off from far distances and being able to come over the top of elite frontcourt players was seemingly easy.

Bryant, on the other hand, has never shot better than 46.9% from the field. His athleticism on his best day may be Grade B Jordan, but his tendencies are a lot more like Reggie Miller. Could Kobe take it straight to the cup more? Sure. Does he? No. He's a great great jumpshooter. But a great jumpshooter is like comparing a great singles hitter to Willie Mays, or a great all-purpose back to a player like Walter Payton. 

Bryant fans love to tell you that the game is so much more athletic now that you can't shoot the percentages that MJ shot back then in today's game from the SG position. Enter Dwyane Wade, who shot 49.5% in 06 and is shooting 49.1% this year. It is Wade, not Bryant, who reminds me most of MJ's ability to take it to the cup on multiple defenders. Wade almost single-handedly willed an inferior Miami team to victory over the Mavericks by taking it straight to the cup on whatever defenders that the Mavericks were willing to provide him. 

Take Jordan himself, at age 41 he shot 44.5% on his last legs. Bryant is shooting 45.2% this year. So you're telling me that MJ 15 years younger could not have shot markedly better than 45.2%.
This is what Bryant fans don't get. The scoring, the big points. It was welcomed in Chicago because Jordan was able to sometimes do it at higher percentages than players like Hakeem Olajuwon, Karl Malone and Rik Smits. 30+ PPG production at center FG% rates? That is efficient offense. Kobe is shooting at jumpshooting PG percentages. That's entirely different. 

"At the very least, Kobe's scoring spree over the last week should put to rest any lingering doubts that he's the best player in the NBA. Yes, better than Steve Nash, who is the best point guard, but not the lethal force that Kobe is. Yes, better than Dwyane Wade, who is certainly closer to the Kobe-Jordan level than LeBron James, but D-Wade's game is not as polished as Kobe's."

Wrong again, on all counts. First start with Wade. The last time I checked, when scoring on who has LED a team to a championship, the score is:

Wade 1
Bryant 0

And Wade is 3.5 years younger than Bryant. While you're talking about scoring explosion, Wade is averaging 27.8 PPG on 49.1% FG, while Bryant is averaging 31.5 PPG on 45.2% FG. Which do you want leading your team? 

Now, let's get to Nash. Wrong again. Nash's team is the two seed, and achieved a high seed last year without Amare playing a large role. He made Boris Diaw look all world in the post. For Bryant to be better than Nash, he has to lead a team to a ring.

And while you're going there, can you picture Nash winning MVPs over 29 year old Jordan? Yes, at Kobe's age, MJ won a ring, won an MVP, a Finals MVP, led his team to 67 regular season wins and averaged 30.1 PPG on 51.9% field goals. Oh and he averaged 6.4 RPG and 6.1 APG on a team with Scottie Pippen averaging 21.0 PPG, 7.7 RPG and 7.0 APG and Horace Grant averaging 14.2 PPG. So MJ did it all. He did what Nash did, what Bryant did and then some. 

As far as Kobe being the best player in the NBA, are you talking about career or one season? 

Because careerwise, you'd have to call Duncan and Shaq slam dunks as better players than Bryant. If Garnett or Dirk win one ring as the leader of their team, you'd have to include them. And you could easily argue that Nash is better and Wade and James will be better career players than Bryant. 

*The article goes on in much longer and more convincing fashion than could be posted here. The rest is at this link:* http://savejoe.net/id7.html


----------



## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*

It is a good article, but the fact of the matter is though is that he's targeting the article at fanboys. Fanboys are what they are because they don't listen to rationality. So, in essence, this is just telling us sensible people what we already know. It has some good information and comparisons but I still find it strange that he's targeting this at fanboys or just irrational pro-Kobe fans. Maybe 1% of those people are going to come across it, then they will probably write an e-mail to the writer and call him a *****, or something... if they know how to use their e-mail, that is.


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*

Not again, I puke whenever i see topics putting Kobe in the same sentence as Jordan.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*

Enough Kobe vs Jordan topics.


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*

:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:	:soapbox:

The majority of Kobe threads are started by his haters, so people don't complain about Kobe fans creating Kobe threads.
Please mods,close this thread.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

I just hate the Suns now. I didn't hate them before, but I hate them now. I love to watch them play, but I also like to watch them lose. Especially in the playoffs.


----------



## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*



Jizzy said:


> Caron was quoted as saying something about not getting the ball enough in LA. It was getting pretty apparent that he didn't want to stay there.



The only time he said anything negative about the team or his role was after he found out he was heading to Washington. If you want to try and prove me otherwise, go for it. But you wont.

In fact, when Phil was signed he was "excited" because Phil told him how he saw Caron fitting into the back court with Kobe. In fact, Caron even said he was hurt by the trade because he really thought he'd fit into the new system.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*

He compared Kobe Bryant to Reggie Miller. Credibility shot. Kobe is closer to Jordan than Reggie is to Kobe, which is to say a comfortable margin. 



> Wrong again, on all counts. First start with Wade. The last time I checked, when scoring on who has LED a team to a championship, the score is:
> 
> Wade 1
> Bryant 0
> ...


Actually it's 3 to 1, and if you don't want to count the titles he won with Shaquille, then his career really started in 2004, a year after Wade's career started, meaning the whole 3.5 years younger argument to make Wade look like he has done more in less time is really meaningless. 

Of course it's cooler when you can have your cake and eat it too.


----------



## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: Kobe had Lamar and Caron on the same team*

So a 25-year-old averages 15.5 ppg, and two years later is up around 20 ppg making an all-star team [Joakim Noah voice] Oh my God![/Joakim Noah voice] It can't be that he's progressed as a player his age normally does, or even more simplistically he plays in a higher paced offense than he did. It must be Kobe's fault, he was holding him back.


----------



## Brandon Real (Mar 14, 2006)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*

Terrible article. We've heard it all before. I always liked Jordan in the day, and I think Kobe is cool now, but it's getting to a point almost where I'm disliking both of them because I'm running into so many of these. I totally need to stay away from this beaten horse. :-\.


----------



## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*

I hate how this guy says that Kobe has to win a title to prove hes better than Nash. So Kobe has to win a title, and Nash doesn't? He acts like Nash has won a title.


----------



## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Air Fly said:


> Dude, were you high or something when you typed this dumb ****?


No. And it wasn't "dumb ****." Spotted!



> Actually, you addressed me first with that stupid picture of yours on another thread that was about Kobe, and I let it go to just prove that i'm not as silly as you are.


What? Two or three weeks ago? This is a separate conversation. Do you want me to search back to June 2005 or something to see who first responded to who?



> Then i come over to this thread and see you post the same **** to one of the posters just cuz he gave props to jordan23. And when did i pull the "mod" card? lol, your'e living in such funny world i tell ya that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See, when you said, "How modly," you were pulling the mod card. By saying "How modly," this was to question my behavior as to whether it's becoming as a moderator of the site (nah) and thereby try and use my position against me. By using a moderator's position against him in an argument - essentially, trying to handicap me any debates or arguments, as any "appropriate" response by me will automatically result in you crying, while you, on the other hand, get off light telling me to "shut the **** up" - that's typically called "pulling the mod card."

You should know, since you wrote the book on the subject.

Anyway, that's the reason for the Crybaby. If you need me to dumb this down any further for you, just ask. I'll try my best.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*



Sir Patchwork said:


> He compared Kobe Bryant to Reggie Miller. Credibility shot. Kobe is closer to Jordan than Reggie is to Kobe, which is to say a comfortable margin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, because Wade had Shaq on his team as well.

Also, lets not treat Reggie like a punk. When they met in the finals, Reggie played better than Bryant, check the stats.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*

I thought this was a terrible article. If he went about it in a different way, it could have been great.

All I could hear in my head when I read this was, "I love Jordan, I love DWade. I hate Kobe, Jordan DWade parade" (ok so thats not really what I heard, but when I was writing it I wanted it to rhyme).

This guy comes off as a rabid Kobe hater, and I find it hard that one guy can fit both Jordan, and DWades **** in his mouth at the same time, thats a big mouth.


Anyone knows me knows I have no love for Kobe, but he is what he is, the best scorer in the league today. And I respect him for that. 

Just another guy who gets mad when he see Kobe torch someone for 50, instead of enjoying the best scorer we've seen in years.


----------



## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*



R-Star said:


> Just another guy who gets mad when he see Kobe torch someone for 50, instead of enjoying the best scorer we've seen in years.


More like a guy who gets irritated as hell the day AFTER the 50-point (at 40% *snicker*) "explosion", when Kobe's pole-riders start proclaiming him "better than Jordan". Any explanations as to why these same people were so quiet here:



> *But Kobe fans went away. Kobe turned 23 and 24, ages at which MJ started to take off to even higher heights. Kobe, on the other hand, failed to look Jordanesque in a 2003 series loss to San Antonio, while watching counterpart Manu Ginobili go off and become a force against the Lakers. Then he shot 37% in 2004 v. the Pistons, and his fans really went away.*


----------



## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*



R-Star said:


> I thought this was a terrible article. If he went about it in a different way, it could have been great.
> 
> All I could hear in my head when I read this was, "I love Jordan, I love DWade. I hate Kobe, Jordan DWade parade" (ok so thats not really what I heard, but when I was writing it I wanted it to rhyme).
> 
> ...


He made a point of saying how much he enjoyed Kobe, and that he was the second best SG ever.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*



carrrnuttt said:


> More like a guy who gets irritated as hell the day AFTER the 50-point (at 40% *snicker*) "explosion", when Kobe's pole-riders start proclaiming him "better than Jordan". Any explanations as to why these same people were so quiet here:



Anyone who thinks Kobe is better than MJ is wrong, thats just how it is.

But this stupid article just adds fuel to the fire. It doesnt need to be writen. This makes him no better than the same people hes complaining about. As a guy who isnt on either side of the argument, I can say he, and people like him, annoy me just as much as the guys who say Kobe is the greatest of all time.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*



Sliccat said:


> He made a point of saying how much he enjoyed Kobe, and that he was the second best SG ever.



I read the article. To me it doesnt sound like hes a big fan of Kobe. And with his little Wade=1 Kobe=0 argument, it seems as though hes a hater to me.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Tommy12 said:


> Mabey even better.


Maybe even worse.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: The greatest player ever*



Rawse said:


> No. And it wasn't "dumb ****." Spotted!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You think your so cool because you're a mod. 

If I was a mod, I'd be 10 to the factor of *R* cooler.


Oh, and by the way, I've been waiting awhile to find the right time to say this, so here it goes.

*No Rawse, you tank harder!*


:fball: :football:


----------



## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*

BTW, I love how, when Paul Shirley was asked about his real opinion on a star like Kobe in his most recent chat, his response was edited by BSPN within 15 minutes of his response. What did he say?



Paul Shirley (NBA journeyman/ESPN blogger) said:


> The most arrogant person I've ever met in my life.


Most of you Kobe pole-riders will discount what he said, as being from a fringe person, but I doubt if many of you will ever come as close as he has to Kobe, when he tried out of the Lakers, and as a writer for ESPN. He has not been anything but candid in all of his writing.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*



carrrnuttt said:


> BTW, I love how, when Paul Shirley was asked about his real opinion on a star like Kobe in his most recent chat, his response was edited by BSPN within 15 minutes of his response. What did he say?
> 
> 
> 
> Most of you Kobe pole-riders will discount what he said, as being from a fringe person, but I doubt if many of you will ever come as close as he has to Kobe, when he tried out of the Lakers, and as a writer for ESPN. He has not been anything but candid in all of his writing.



Thats my problem with Kobe. While I respect his game, I hate him for being such a cocky, arrogant *****.

I remember him once saying something about how he didnt have to talk or be friends with his teammates, and that he wanted nothing to do with them outside of games and practices. To me, thats not the attitude of a winner.


----------



## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*

Here's another good one:



> *Jemele Hill, By Popular Demand *
> 
> 
> I'll be honest with you, I don't read any columns on ESPN.com anymore. I don't really enjoy any of their authors. I used to read Bill Simmons and enjoy it, then I read Bill Simmons to see how he would bother me, now I just think he's boring. So you'll forgive me for missing the latest Jemele Hill article. The fifty people who found our website (and this post) by searching some iteration of "Jemele Hill sucks/idiot/stupid" convinced me to check it out. Hill's article is something to behold. Too bad it's serious. If it were a satire, I believe its sheer brilliance would be enough to resurrect Jonathan Swift.
> ...


----------



## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Actually it's 3 to 1, and if you don't want to count the titles he won with Shaquille, then his career really started in 2004, a year after Wade's career started, meaning the whole 3.5 years younger argument to make Wade look like he has done more in less time is really meaningless.
> 
> Of course it's cooler when you can have your cake and eat it too.


Yeah that's my beef with the article too. The author measures ability by titles, but then completely writes off Kobe's three titles because he wasn't the best player on his team; trying to imply that Kobe was just a role player during the Laker 3-Peat. How many titles did Prime Shaq win without Kobe? Exactly.


----------



## nguyen_milan (Jun 28, 2005)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*



carrrnuttt said:


> BTW, I love how, when Paul Shirley was asked about his real opinion on a star like Kobe in his most recent chat, his response was edited by BSPN within 15 minutes of his response. What did he say?
> 
> 
> 
> Most of you Kobe pole-riders will discount what he said, as being from a fringe person, but I doubt if many of you will ever come as close as he has to Kobe, when he tried out of the Lakers, and as a writer for ESPN. He has not been anything but candid in all of his writing.


Oh please, he met Kobe and Shaq in a Lakers summer camp or something back when Kobe was 18 lol No wonder he liked SHaq more than Kobe, so typical 



> Quick story, since I have totally wrecked the flow of this anyway. When I was first out of college and reported to training camp with the Lakers, with whom I had no chance of making the team as an undrafted, non-guaranteed camp invitee, I was determined to not betray the fact that I had no idea what I was doing. To that end, upon entry into the locker room prior to the media day that goes on the day before training camp begins, I marched right up to Shaq and said, “Hi. My name is Paul Shirley.” He smiled and said, “Yeah, I know who you are.” I nearly fell onto the floor. Instead, though, I said, “Nice to meet you,” and walked back to my locker to get dressed so that I could be asked exactly zero questions by the reporters in attendance. Throughout camp, Shaq was unbelievable. He was completely down-to-earth, funny, and approachable. When I was released at the first available opportunity, I was left with a lasting impression of a very cool individual.)


http://www.nba.com/suns/news/shirley_playoff_blog.html


----------



## magic_bryant (Jan 11, 2004)

*Re: Kobe Drops 50, LA in Playoffs*

At the end of the season, the Suns still didn't win **** last year. So, they had nothing to brag about in even the "recent past". At least Lakers fans can say "Rings" and it not be something of a fairy tale/dream.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*



carrrnuttt said:


> More like a guy who gets irritated as hell the day AFTER the 50-point (at 40% *snicker*) "explosion"...


kobe's lowest fg% for his 50 pt games this year is 43%. his ts% has been under 57.7% once (52.8%) in his 10 50 pt games. his ts% over his 50 pt games is 65%. lets make something up and then snicker at it! lol.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*



R-Star said:


> No, because Wade had Shaq on his team as well.
> 
> Also, lets not treat Reggie like a punk. When they met in the finals, Reggie played better than Bryant, check the stats.


kobe hurt his ankle 9 minutes into game 2. miller shot 1-16 in game 1. 

there's a large gap between reggie miller and kobe bryant. that doesn't imply reggies a punk nor is it insulting to reggie.


----------



## Pnack (Aug 23, 2005)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*

Owned.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*

another writer breaking out the fg% comparisons. good grief.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*

Too bad Kobe has 3-point range. He'd be a better scorer if he couldn't shoot threes.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*



kflo said:


> kobe hurt his ankle 9 minutes into game 2. miller shot 1-16 in game 1.
> 
> there's a large gap between reggie miller and kobe bryant. that doesn't imply reggies a punk nor is it insulting to reggie.



Damnit kflo, I didnt _really_ want you to look up the stats. I love Reggie Miller, I was just making up stuff to make me feel good.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*



carrrnuttt said:


> Most of you Kobe pole-riders will discount what he said, as being from a fringe person, but I doubt if many of you will ever come as close as he has to Kobe, when he tried out of the Lakers, and as a writer for ESPN. He has not been anything but candid in all of his writing.


A friend of mine met Steve Nash and said he was smug and sarcastic, and thought he was too good to talk to anyone. Who cares? These are professional athletes, they're not paid to be our friends.


----------



## shakespeare (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: It's Time For The Lakers To Be Honest*



Mateo said:


> Gave no actual suggestions on how to improve the team. Typical sports article, all about the best player including a lot of vague comparisons to past teams. No actual meat to the article. Pretty much a waste of time to read.


Either Kupchak signs better teammates or the Lakers can allow Kobe to as selfish as he wants to be.


----------



## shakespeare (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*

Jemele Hill wrote a piece where she actually gave readers more reason to believe Kobe is, and will never snif the heroics of MJ.

I wonder did she re-read her article before she submitted it?


----------



## shakespeare (Nov 2, 2006)

*Re: The greatest player ever*

MJ is the greatest player that my eyes have seen. I never saw Oscar Robertson play.


----------



## Javelin (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*

Anyone who claims Kobe is a cocky mother****er is retarded, he's one of the most humble players out there. But still, he's nowhere near Michael but definitely belongs on the top 5 in history.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 
3. Wilt Chamberlain 
4. Kobe Bryant or Larry Bird
5. Allen Iverson or Magic Johnson


----------



## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

*Re: It's Time For The Lakers To Be Honest*



socco said:


> Is anybody actually claiming that he has good teammates?


Someone I know on another board actually BELIEVES that Kobe is the FOURTH best player on the team.

After Odom, then Bynum, then Walton - he puts Kobe fourth.

He also considers Odom and Walton to be the MVPs of the team, and Kobe is the biggest detriment to the lakers and they would be better off if they just got rid of him, even if they added nothing.

I'm DEAD serious.


----------



## Wombatkilla1 (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*

As jordan may be more humble of a "player" i dont think that his attitude was any better as a person. I have in my life been face to face with Mike once when he was playing baseball for the scorpions here in phoenix and once at a bar. 

My uncle who managed the field in Peoria got me into to meet Mike while playing baseball for the scorpions here in Az. (keep in mind i was 8 years old at the time) Along with 4 other kids my own age walking around meeting every player on the team we get to big Mike! I remember being so happy and excited to be in his presence and so dissapointed after meeting him. You see as us kids were standing there waiting for him to say something all the dude did was spit on the ground beside him, get up, turn around take his jersey off and walk away and into the coaches office. No hello, no hand shake, not even a smile! Being a young kid that looked to Jordan as a larger than life hero it really really hurt my respect for him.

Fast forward 13 years im 21 and working at a clothing boutique at scottsdale fashion square mall called "the hub" and my boss Tom who had met Charles Barkley while selling his wife clothing was invited to a local bar to drink and eat with he and "some freinds" as was stated to me the night before he asked if i wanted to go. So, Me being a huge bball fan was all in and who could these freinds be? Well to my surprise it was Michael Jordan "this is so great" i remember thinking to myself not letting what happened so many years ago effect my thought of him now, but only for now... Any how we walk up to the table and Charles says "mr. Mike J this is Tom he owns a clothing shop at the mall" Mike shakes his hand and before i can say anything at all includes " i wont sign anything just so you know" i was shocked i must of looked really stupid because i remember my jaw dropping and me staring at him for an akward amount of time. I then held out my hand and said "my name is kyle, nice to meet you guys" charles shook my hand and told me "you are the skinniest white chick i have ever seen" (i have long hair) I then turned to Mike he nodded and shook my hand with a grip weaker than my grandmothers and promptly looked away. the whole night we chatted with barkley and every once in awhile mike would say something but never to Tom or I. at about 10 pm he got up hugged Barkley and went home obviously without saying anything to us as he left. we ended up hanging out with Charles until like midnight he was awesome and it was one of the coolest experiences of my life, Jordan however was the biggest ***** i had ever met. 

Im not sure if i have a point here because i do feel that jordan is a better player than Kobe, i do however feel something should be said about him as a person if we were to be attacking Kobe in this way as well. Besides, Ive been itching to tell these stories since ive been on this board...seemed like the perfect opportunity.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

We all know Kobe is a great player, but this is a general NBA board and we don't need five threads on one player. Please direct all your Kobe praise, criticism, insightful recommendations, irrational love and irrational hatred to this thread. It's a channel just for Kobe Bryant, and it's always on.

Thanks.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Haha, Kobe has his own channel here now. 

So uh...which Kobe do you guys think we'll see in the playoffs?


----------



## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

Minstrel said:


> We all know Kobe is a great player, but this is a general NBA board and we don't need five threads on one player. Please direct all your Kobe praise, criticism, insightful recommendations, irrational love and irrational hatred to this thread. It's a channel just for Kobe Bryant, and it's always on.
> 
> Thanks.


Brilliant, hope we don't see any more Kobe threads.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Quote:
Jemele Hill, By Popular Demand 


I'll be honest with you, I don't read any columns on ESPN.com anymore. I don't really enjoy any of their authors. I used to read Bill Simmons and enjoy it, then I read Bill Simmons to see how he would bother me, now I just think he's boring. So you'll forgive me for missing the latest Jemele Hill article. The fifty people who found our website (and this post) by searching some iteration of "Jemele Hill sucks/idiot/stupid" convinced me to check it out. Hill's article is something to behold. Too bad it's serious. If it were a satire, I believe its sheer brilliance would be enough to resurrect Jonathan Swift.

To the article. Her premise is that Kobe Bryant is a better player than Michael Jordan. That's also her first sentence. Here are her next four: "Not more successful. Hasn't had a bigger economic impact. Hasn't won more MVPs. Hasn't won more titles." Hmm, interesting strategy. I'm not sure pointing out four ways (four big ways) that Kobe is not better is the strongest way to build your case. But don't worry, it becomes apparent throughout the article that Hill isn't really interested in proving that Kobe is better than Jordan. She's merely interested in saying it.

Before we go any further, there are several places where Hill blindly asserts that Kobe is better than Jordan at some skill or ability. I'm not going to address those because I would just be blindly asserting back and there are funnier things to talk about.

For example, did you know that Vince Carter is clearly a better defender than Joe Dumars? It's true, look, "Jordan was guarded by the likes of John Starks and Joe Dumars, who were fine players but weren't nearly as skilled or physically imposing as LeBron, D-Wade, Tracy McGrady or even Vince Carter." I can write a sentence equally true and equally meaningful. Here it is. A lot of people think Ozzie Smith was a good defensive shortstop, but Omar Vizquel is better because Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez, and Nomar Garciaparra hit way more home runs than Rafael Santana and Alfredo Griffin. Wait I found an even better example. Unfortunately for Hill, it's in her article. "Seven-footers weren't launching 3s [when Jordan was playing]." You heard it here first, Dirk Nowitzki's three-ball is why Kobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan. Also mentioned by Hill as reasons that Bryant is better than Jordan: Steve Nash's MVP awards and Tim Duncan's MVP awards. I wish I was kidding.

Hill points out that Bryant gets hit with a lot of off the court stuff that people let slide with Jordan. They mention Jordan forcing out Doug Collins, him beating up Steve Kerr in practice, his gambling, and his less than stellar marriage. Hill must be making the point that there are just as many off the field reasons to dislike Jordan as there are to dislike Bryant, and that maybe Jordan's are even a little bit worse than just one problem with Phil Jackson and a bogus rape charge. Surely this character judgment should impact our evaluation of them as players. Wait, what's that Jemele? "The best-player argument shouldn't be determined by personal dislike." Oh.

I guess we have to rely solely on their playing careers then. It's been a few paragraphs, could you tell me again how Bryant compared to Jordan in that regard? "Not more successful. Hasn't won more MVPs. Hasn't won more titles." Oh yeah.

Great article. You proved your point with adroit logic and eloquent language. Now, stop writing crazy things so I can go back to ignoring ESPN.com.


*Now that's genius. Cheers! And Kobe Bryant is my favorite player in the world of all time. However Kobe isn't as good as MJ now, Kobe was never as good as MJ in the past, and Kobe in my opinion is never going to be as good as MJ. So what ? Is being the second best SG of all time that terrible ?*


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*



Javelin said:


> Anyone who claims Kobe is a cocky mother****er is retarded, he's one of the most humble players out there. But still, he's nowhere near Michael but definitely belongs on the top 5 in history.
> 
> 1. Michael Jordan
> 2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
> ...



Kobe in the top 5 all-time? Maybe, but not right now.

AI at top 5 player of all time? You're kidding right? Thats not even funny. AI is not, nor will he ever be considered by anyone but yourself and his grandma, to be a top 5 all-time player.


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*

Kobe IS a cocky mf. But thats one of the reasons hes so good. Just because he doesn't say cocky things, doesn't mean he isn't. Thats also why I hate when people call guys like Wade humble, he may say the right things but just look at him on the court. He KNOWS hes good, just like Kobe KNOWS hes the best in the game today. All the great players were full of themselves, they all knew just how good they were.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*



Wombatkilla1 said:


> As jordan may be more humble of a "player" i dont think that his attitude was any better as a person. I have in my life been face to face with Mike once when he was playing baseball for the scorpions here in phoenix and once at a bar.
> 
> My uncle who managed the field in Peoria got me into to meet Mike while playing baseball for the scorpions here in Az. (keep in mind i was 8 years old at the time) Along with 4 other kids my own age walking around meeting every player on the team we get to big Mike! I remember being so happy and excited to be in his presence and so dissapointed after meeting him. You see as us kids were standing there waiting for him to say something all the dude did was spit on the ground beside him, get up, turn around take his jersey off and walk away and into the coaches office. No hello, no hand shake, not even a smile! Being a young kid that looked to Jordan as a larger than life hero it really really hurt my respect for him.
> 
> ...



I would much rather spend time with Chuck than MJ. I read a picture book that MJ put out years ago about his life, and one page was him saying something along the lines of "I will never say Im the best player ever, because I dont have to." Thats great and all Mike, but writing that in a book just contradicted that statement. What ever happened to the humble sports player? If Im the best at something, I dont need to rub it in anyones face.


----------



## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*

can i get a refund on channel kobe? not sure it's worth the scrilla.


----------



## Imdaman (Nov 29, 2006)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*



Wombatkilla1 said:


> As jordan may be more humble of a "player" i dont think that his attitude was any better as a person. I have in my life been face to face with Mike once when he was playing baseball for the scorpions here in phoenix and once at a bar.
> 
> My uncle who managed the field in Peoria got me into to meet Mike while playing baseball for the scorpions here in Az. (keep in mind i was 8 years old at the time) Along with 4 other kids my own age walking around meeting every player on the team we get to big Mike! I remember being so happy and excited to be in his presence and so dissapointed after meeting him. You see as us kids were standing there waiting for him to say something all the dude did was spit on the ground beside him, get up, turn around take his jersey off and walk away and into the coaches office. No hello, no hand shake, not even a smile! Being a young kid that looked to Jordan as a larger than life hero it really really hurt my respect for him.
> 
> ...


"I then turned to mike he nodded and shook my hand with a grip weaker than my grandmothers and promply looked away" ROFL:lol:


----------



## Fray (Dec 19, 2005)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*



R-Star said:


> Kobe in the top 5 all-time? Maybe, but not right now.
> 
> AI at top 5 player of all time? You're kidding right? Thats not even funny. AI is not, nor will he ever be considered by anyone but yourself and his grandma, to be a top 5 all-time player.


I'm not saying Iverson is top 5 all time but I always ask this question when people compare him to Kobe, what would have happened if the Lakers would have been able to draft Iverson and the 76ers drafted Kobe?


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*



Fray said:


> I'm not saying Iverson is top 5 all time but I always ask this question when people compare him to Kobe, what would have happened if the Lakers would have been able to draft Iverson and the 76ers drafted Kobe?



Iverson would have had 3 rings and Kobe would have had less people ragging on him saying he cant win without Shaq.


----------



## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*



Drewbs said:


> Kobe IS a cocky mf. But thats one of the reasons hes so good. Just because he doesn't say cocky things, doesn't mean he isn't. Thats also why I hate when people call guys like Wade humble, he may say the right things but just look at him on the court. He KNOWS hes good, just like Kobe KNOWS hes the best in the game today. All the great players were full of themselves, they all knew just how good they were.


Wade actually comes across as a guy who's very arrogant and conceited veiled as humble. Everytime I see him on something off the court he's talking about how hot he is or whatever, and on the court he's very cocky, but all that is confidence in his ability.

With that said, I really don't care, because I'm a fan of what these players do on the court unless they are just reprehensible beings in general. I think Bill Romanowski is the only player in any league who falls in that category for me.


----------



## joehoo (Apr 17, 2007)

Minstrel said:


> We all know Kobe is a great player, but this is a general NBA board and we don't need five threads on one player. Please direct all your Kobe praise, criticism, insightful recommendations, irrational love and irrational hatred to this thread. It's a channel just for Kobe Bryant, and it's always on.
> 
> Thanks.


zzzzzzz

I love when people on message boards talk about precious message board space like it is finite. I can see what you mean about not wanting a Kobe thread when you have threads like "Tyrus Thomas = Shawn Kemp"

Why debate an article that makes very specific and all-encompassing points when you can debate whether or not "I'm all about the free money" is just like a fat crack addict or not. 

Next time an article like this goes up, just delete it and post a thread called "Earl Boykins, IS he Mugsy Bogues' cousin?"


----------



## joehoo (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: Great MJ v. Kobe article*



Tragedy said:


> Wade actually comes across as a guy who's very arrogant and conceited veiled as humble. Everytime I see him on something off the court he's talking about how hot he is or whatever, and on the court he's very cocky, but all that is confidence in his ability.
> 
> With that said, I really don't care, because I'm a fan of what these players do on the court unless they are just reprehensible beings in general. I think Bill Romanowski is the only player in any league who falls in that category for me.


How can you criticize Wade for anything and have the picture you have on your avatar? Players like Dwyane Wade end up transcending generations. Chubby, malcontent, drug-video, prepacked "superstars" like "Melo" who don't play defense end up getting left behind by history. With Wade, at least people are questioning whether he is better than Kobe, or close to MJ. "Melo"..? Doubt it.


----------



## joehoo (Apr 17, 2007)

23AJ said:


> Quote:
> Jemele Hill, By Popular Demand
> 
> 
> ...


Man your last paragraph is a compromise I'll take with any Kobe fan at any time. Barring Wade continuing to have seasons like last year, I can't imagine anyone overtaking Kobe for #2 for a long time. Why is that so terrible for some media people? #2 SG of all time puts you ahead of JERRY WEST. How awful lol.

Hill's comparison to yesterday's league is hilarious. John Starks and Joe Dumars.. let's see how many shooting guards were left out that are better than John Starks:

Reggie Miller
Clyde Drexler
Ron Harper
Alex English
Mitch Richmond

I guess those guys don't count.

Then she brings up the center position. And that Kobe has had to play against Shaq. 

Here are all the centers from 84-93 to be better than 05-07 Shaq:

Olajuwon
M. Malone
Abdul-Jabbar
Parrish
Shaquille O'neal (1993)
Mourning
Ewing
Robinson

Duncan is better than some of those players. Not Olajuwon or Robinson in his prime, but better than most. But who else? Name me two players on that list that Yao Ming is better than? Or Eddy Curry, Zyrdunas Ilgauskas or Erick Dampier. Dwight Howard is a nice prospect, but he's not better than Hakeem, 93 O'neal (whom Jordan faced almost as many times as Kobe has faced Shaq in three years since Shaq and Kobe are not in the same conference), Robinson or Ewing.

She then brings Lebron up. Lebron is a SF. Okay:

Larry Bird
Scottie Pippen (since Hill thinks that Kobe has had to face Shaq so many times)
Dennis Rodman (who was a SF early)
James Worthy
Bernard King

Quick, name me 3 PFs today better than McHale, K. Malone and Barkley.


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

so what happens if for example this off-season the lakers go after & get j.oneil or k.garnett plus a decent point guard and the lakers end up winning a championship or two, does that take away form kobe because he got help from another all-star like jordan did, i just have a feeling if it were to happen that everyone would say he's still not on jordans level cause he needed help from another all-star


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Undefeated82 said:


> so what happens if for example this off-season the lakers go after & get j.oneil or k.garnett plus a decent point guard and the lakers end up winning a championship or two, does that take away form kobe because he got help from another all-star like jordan did, i just have a feeling if it were to happen that everyone would say he's still not on jordans level cause he needed help from another all-star


Please read through this thread, nobody is saying Kobe doesn't match up with Mike over all because he doesn't have the rings. People are saying Kobe just isn't as good as MJ on a whole in many different facets of basketball. Like being a team player, being the most dominating offensive scorer check Jordans career average, playing defense, being a good distributor of the ball, never quiting, rebounding, and the all around fundmentals that make a great basketball player. Kobe is great at these things, but Jordan is pretty much over all a little better and in some areas such as defense/rebounding a lot better then that of Kobe. The MVPs, Championships, Awards etc MJ will always own Kobe in that regard because Jordan actually domianted his peers, something we can't say Kobe has really done to this point in his career.

However as Kobe being my favorite player in the world. I'm totally on board with you about the Lakers trying to get Kobe some more great players to surround him, he needs it. No shame in that.


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

23AJ said:


> Please read through this thread, nobody is saying Kobe doesn't match up with Mike over all because he doesn't have the rings. People are saying Kobe just isn't as good as MJ on a whole in many different facets of basketball. Like being a team player, being the most dominating offensive scorer check Jordans career average, playing defense, being a good distributor of the ball, never quiting, rebounding, and the all around fundmentals that make a great basketball player. Kobe is great at these things, but Jordan is pretty much over all a little better and in some areas such as defense/rebounding a lot better then that of Kobe. The MVPs, Championships, Awards etc MJ will always own Kobe in that regard because Jordan actually domianted his peers, something we can't say Kobe has really done to this point in his career.
> 
> However as Kobe being my favorite player in the world. I'm totally on board with you about the Lakers trying to get Kobe some more great players to surround him, he needs it. No shame in that.


Sounds good to me. Im not implying myself that Kobe is better then MJ.


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