# Frahm "Lighting It Up" In Camp



## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

Apparently, a dead-eye on many treys.

Hmmmm......I wonder if this guy will get many minutes, let alone stick with the team? (strange as it may seem, there's still a part of me that wishes the team could just cut DA.)


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

Frahm did this in Seattle last year too in actual games when they let him play. I was surprised they didn't re-sign him since good shooters are so hard to come by these days....he may not have much else to his game but a dead-eye shooter is not a bad thing for an 11th or 12th man.


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## riehldeal (May 11, 2003)

*well hell...*

he cant much worse of a defender than DA so why the hell not start him at the 2 if he stroking the ball like this on a consistent basis....although i digress, i am getting very excited about his potentially devasting affect he could have coming off the bench and lighting up the 3's....we need a scoring punch off the bench and with the combo of NVE and frahm i think we have it, and thats not even factoring in either SAR or miles will be coming off the bench too....we are looking deeper and deeper each day....although NVE's health might hurt that depth alittle, but if he cant play immediately at the start of the season THEN we might be able to see telfair play a few minutes here and there sooner than we were expecting


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

I keep hoping that DA will be the DA the Spur for us. He can be a godd contributer in this league, but as we all know injuries have limited him throughout his career.


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## 4-For-Snapper (Jan 1, 2003)

The more I hear about this guy, the more excited I get about seeing him play. If he can hit jumpers as well as it's been reported, then perhaps NVE will be playing backup to Frahm.


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ABM</b>!
> Apparently, a dead-eye on many treys.
> 
> Hmmmm......I wonder if this guy will get many minutes, let alone stick with the team? (strange as it may seem, there's still a part of me that wishes the team could just cut DA.)


Stick with the team? Have you not heard Nash's comments about Frahm? He's not going anywhere.


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## BLAZER PROPHET (Jan 3, 2003)

Well, with an injured DA (herniated disc in his back), an injured Gansta (knee) and with Quintel being dogged out (sorry, couldn't resist), he may get some serious playing time. I like that idea.


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## Scinos (Jun 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>whiterhino</b>!
> Frahm did this in Seattle last year too in actual games when they let him play. *I was surprised they didn't re-sign him* since good shooters are so hard to come by these days....he may not have much else to his game but a dead-eye shooter is not a bad thing for an 11th or 12th man.


He couldn't be resigned. The Bobcats took him in the expansion draft and players selected can't be resigned by their own team. Otherwise, he probably would've resigned. I'm glad he found another team anyway.

If you look at the games where he played 15 minutes+, he shot very well. It's not a big sample size (14 games), but he shot 46-84 in those games, 55%.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Seattle fans were all excited about Frahm last year, too.

In spite of comments like whiterhino's, the fact is that Frahm was NOT that effective when given a chance to play regular minutes. He had three strong games in mid-December, including his 31 point outburst. He also had 3 games in December when he got double-digit minutes and failed to score more than 2 points.

There's no doubt that Frahn's a shooter, and I hope he can help us, but I find it hard to believe that he's going to emerge at age 27 as some sort of above-average NBA player.

As with Joel Przybilla, though, players like Frahm are going to determine how long of a down period the Blazers have. Unlike Przybilla, though, who's 7'1" and still only 24 (he turns 25 in 3 days), Frahm's earned no significant playing time in the NBA previously and I have lower expectations for him.

Ed O.


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## Scinos (Jun 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> Seattle fans were all excited about Frahm last year, too.
> 
> In spite of comments like whiterhino's, the fact is that Frahm was NOT that effective when given a chance to play regular minutes. He had three strong games in mid-December, including his 31 point outburst. He also had 3 games in December when he got double-digit minutes and failed to score more than 2 points.
> ...


Well, that's a fairly harsh opinion of him Ed. But, if Blazers fans are expecting him to be a 'scorer' then they will be disappointed, because he's not. He is a spot up jumpshooter, and that's what Portland seems to be missing. Those games you are talking about when he failed to score more than 2 points, you fail to mention that he only attempted _1 shot_. He's a good 4th (or 5th) guard to have on your team and that's exactly what he is.


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## CelticPagan (Aug 23, 2004)

DA is a major detriment to the team. Let's start Frahm, his killer shooting will end the sagging zone defense teams play against us. And look at how well the 'unathletic' European players fared against our NBA all-stars.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>CelticPagan</b>!
> And look at how well the 'unathletic' European players fared against our NBA all-stars.


Apples, meet oranges.

That's not an orange.

Ed O.


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## BlazerFanFoLife (Jul 17, 2003)

that was close from the title i thought frahm was cought smoking at training camp. one problem with framh is he cant create his own shot, meening that he has to be open when he gets the ball.


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

> There's no doubt that Frahn's a shooter, and I hope he can help us, but I find it hard to believe that he's going to emerge at age 27 as some sort of above-average NBA player.


We don't need him to be an above average player, merely an above average shooter. We've already got me-first offensive players on the team, but no outside threat to compliment them in a secondary role.

Dan


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## CelticPagan (Aug 23, 2004)

Ask me if I"m an orange.


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## kaydow (Apr 6, 2004)

The Sonics had no low post threat last year--none. You ask any "pure shooter" how they like the ball delivered to them and they'll tell you they like it kicked out from the post where they can catch it with momentum going towards the basket. With SAR and Z-Bo, Portland has the Post pressence to demand double teams and teams will force them to beat them from the outside. They're not asking RF to create shots, they're asking him to knock down open "J's". I can already hear somebody replying that Z-Bo is a ball hog and not that great of passer even when he tries, but maybe (assuming he trusts Frahm will knock them down) he'll try. It would only help him if there was a consistant outside threat to keep teams honest. Even if he is totally one-dimensional, he can reek havoc by knocking down shots. I think he may be more athletic than people think (we all heard about his dunk in summer league) Regardless, this team is desperate for a consistant shooter and Frahm will get his chance to prove he's a legit NBA player. You have to start DA--there is virtually no chace to trade him if you bench him and he's got multiple years left, but I'm excited to see what RF can do with 15-20 minutes/game.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Frahm was not drafted for a reason: he wasn't that good of a prospect coming out of college.

Frahm was cut by the Blazers in preseason two years ago for a reason: the Blazers had better players than him.

He was not signed by Utah after playing in their summer league last year and was protected by the Sonics in the expansion draft for the same reason: each team (LOTTERY teams, mind you, in Utah and Seattle) had superior players.

Does being not drafted alone mean much? No. Or being waived once or twice? No. But is there a pattern of Frahm not being successful in the NBA? Absolutely.

That the Blazers and their fans are pinning their (our) hopes on such a fringe NBA player shows (to me) how limited our chances of success are in the near term.

Ed O.


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## Scout226 (Sep 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> That the Blazers and their fans are pinning their (our) hopes on such a fringe NBA player shows (to me) how limited our chances of success are in the near term.


I don't see the fans or the organization pinning their hopes on Frahm. I see them just excited about a young player that can be a decent role player. Just like everyone wanting Person. They weren't wanting him as a savior, but just as a role player to fill an outside shooter need.

Scout


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Scout226</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't see the fans or the organization pinning their hopes on Frahm. I see them just excited about a young player that can be a decent role player. Just like everyone wanting Person. They weren't wanting him as a savior, but just as a role player to fill an outside shooter need.
> ...


That's the way I view the situation, as well.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Scout226</b>!
> 
> I don't see the fans or the organization pinning their hopes on Frahm. I see them just excited about a young player that can be a decent role player. Just like everyone wanting Person. They weren't wanting him as a savior, but just as a role player to fill an outside shooter need.


I always have hopes of all the Blazer players doing well. That said, from what I've seen of Richie he's pretty athletically challenged compared to most NBA 2's. Sure he might fill the outside shooter need, but if his man is taking him off the dribble at will, thats not a tradeoff I'm all that excited about. That would be like filling one need and creating a greater one.

STOMP


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> Frahm was not drafted for a reason: he wasn't that good of a prospect coming out of college.


and who were the teams drafted Ben Wallace and Brad Miller?


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> and who were the teams drafted Ben Wallace and Brad Miller?


Did you read the rest of my post, Hap? Specifically, "Does being not drafted alone mean much? No. Or being waived once or twice? No. But is there a pattern of Frahm not being successful in the NBA? Absolutely."

I don't really know what you're asking if you read my entire post and still are asking the question you're asking.

Ed O.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> Did you read the rest of my post, Hap? Specifically, "Does being not drafted alone mean much? No. Or being waived once or twice? No.


so, these patterns, which don't mean anything, mean something if they're combined?

a lot of players have been waived or traded. Infact, Ben Wallace was traded twice. Once for crap. 




> But is there a pattern of Frahm not being successful in the NBA? Absolutely."
> 
> I don't really know what you're asking if you read my entire post and still are asking the question you're asking.
> 
> Ed O.


because someone was cut or waived or not drafted doesn't mean they can't be a good productive player in the NBA. 

maybe there are other reasons than not having a "successful" career in the NBA. For example, was he better than Bonzi or DA when he was here? nope. Are the sonics supposed to keep him over Ray Allen and Flip Wilson? (or whoever he is)?

Or Antonio Daniels?

Does that mean he can't be successful?

Look at David Wesley and Darrell Armstrong. both were undrafted, and Wesley was waived/not re-signed by more than 1 team, and Armstrong was undrafted, and signed with the GBA for like 2 seasons.

just because someone doesn't follow the typical route to get to the NBA doesn't mean they can't be 'successful"


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## Scinos (Jun 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> Did you read the rest of my post, Hap? Specifically, "Does being not drafted alone mean much? No. Or being waived once or twice? No. But is there a pattern of Frahm not being successful in the NBA? Absolutely."
> 
> I don't really know what you're asking if you read my entire post and still are asking the question you're asking.
> ...


Well Ed, there's still a guy like Bruce Bowen. Not drafted, bounced around several bad teams like the Celtics and Bulls. Not exactly a pattern of success in the NBA. Yet, he's found a home in San Antonio and has become a valuable role-player on a very good team. The same could happen to a guy like Frahm...


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Scinos</b>!
> 
> 
> Well Ed, there's still a guy like Bruce Bowen. Not drafted, bounced around several bad teams like the Celtics and Bulls. Not exactly a pattern of success in the NBA. Yet, he's found a home in San Antonio and has become a valuable role-player on a very good team. The same could happen to a guy like Frahm...


exactly.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> so, these patterns, which don't mean anything, mean something if they're combined?


Absolutely. If an animal has stripes, it's unclear what it is. If it's got stripes and four legs is't still unclear. If it's got stripes, four legs and a mane, it's probably a zebra.



> maybe there are other reasons than not having a "successful" career in the NBA. For example, was he better than Bonzi or DA when he was here? nope. Are the sonics supposed to keep him over Ray Allen and Flip Wilson? (or whoever he is)?
> 
> Or Antonio Daniels?
> 
> Does that mean he can't be successful?


Well, first of all nobody's saying he can't be successful... just like nobody's saying I can't win the World Series of Poker. I don't like either of our chances.

And your argument is that the reason he's not found success is because he's not as good as the players ahead of him? I don't know where that gets you.

If it's just about opportunity (if he were on a worse team, he'd get more of a chance), I can see it. Except that every team in the NBA, including the Bobcats (who might be one of the worst teams in NBA history) has had a chance to add him and nobody outside of the Pacific division (the Blazers, Jazz, and Sonics) seems particularly interested.



> Look at David Wesley and Darrell Armstrong. both were undrafted, and Wesley was waived/not re-signed by more than 1 team, and Armstrong was undrafted, and signed with the GBA for like 2 seasons.


I don't think that Wesley was waived by any teams... if you can point me in the right direction I'd be interested to know more. He played in the CBA his first year out of college, so maybe he was, but he played as a 23 year old rookie for the Nets... which is a pretty typical age for a player in the early 90s.

Armstrong is a case that's more similar to Frahm... he finally made the NBA as a 26 year-old rookie, just like Richie. I don't know the particulars of how he was signed as a rookie (other than that he'd played in Spain immediately beforehand) but he made a good enough impression with his first NBA team that they were willing to re-sign him in spite of giving him limited playing time the first couple of years. The same can't be said of Frahm.

Ed O.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Scinos</b>!
> 
> Well Ed, there's still a guy like Bruce Bowen. Not drafted, bounced around several bad teams like the Celtics and Bulls. Not exactly a pattern of success in the NBA. Yet, he's found a home in San Antonio and has become a valuable role-player on a very good team. The same could happen to a guy like Frahm...


There was also Spud Webb, who won a slam dunk contest at the height of 5'6". Bowen is an aberration, as you well know.

Is it possible the Frahm could emerge like Bowen has? Sure. It's not very likely, though.

Ed O.


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## ebott (Jan 7, 2003)

The thing about Frahm this year that goes against Ed's theory that his past failures indicate another one this year is this. Never before has Richie Frahm been in such an ideal situation. When he was with us in 02 we had both DA and Bonzi and our overall exterior offense was much better than it is now. Last year when he was with Seattle they had three players (Allen, Barry and Murphy) that were both better shooters and all around players than he is. This year with us we only have one shooting guard and really no one on the team that is a dependable outside shooter.

That being the case I expect him to be able to command 15 minutes a game. His two main contributions will be to hit open shots and after he's done that to keep the offense honest. With post players like Zach and S.A-R. and slashers like Miles and uh..... maybe DA (if he's healthy and surprisingly good) and Damon (if all his getting to the line talk is worth anything) there should be lots of open outside shots for Frahm.

If he can do that it could net us up to 10 more wins if we're in as many close games as we were last year. I seem to recall that we lost a lot of them because our offense was stagnant. Having never seen him play I'm optimistic about his defensive abilities and I think he'll be a fine role player for this team.


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## FeloniusThunk (Jan 1, 2003)

He's done pretty well when given a chance so far. He shot poorly in the summer league a couple of years ago with the Blazers, but clearly he's either improved or just had bad timing, considering his shooting before that and since. He's not going to translate into 10 wins by himself or be an all-star, but he fills a great need.

I watched him play quite a bit in college, and I thought he was definitely nba capable then. A lot like Richard Hamilton, though a bit less of a scorer and bit more all-around player. He won't be a Chris Mullin by any stretch, but he could be something a bit like a Ricky Pierce or Voshon Lenard. If he can be a reliable shooter and good team passer, he should be a perfect role player to go with Miles and Randolph, quite possibly fitting with them better than Derek Anderson or Stoudamire do. He might not be, but he's not breaking the bank either way. If he does, he will probably have a better effect on the win column than past, bigger signings like Jeff McInnis.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

This may be neither here nor there but, it sounds like Telfair's appreciating his presence. There are quotes from him (Telfair) suggesting that Frahm is one of the guys he's most impressed with due to work ethic, being on time for things, etc. Frahm may even be out of the league in a year but, if he can help keep Telfair from following the path of some of the other Blazers around him, it might be well worth having him on the roster just for that. And yes, I realize that Telfair might well manage that all on his own. Still, a guy's gotta have someone to hang with while on road trips and better Frahm than Woods, eh?


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

> Bowen is an aberration, as you well know.


Rudy T was quite the fella at finding those aberrations en masse. We even had a pretty good one of them ourselves in Mario Elie.

Dan


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dkap</b>!
> 
> Rudy T was quite the fella at finding those aberrations en masse. We even had a pretty good one of them ourselves in Mario Elie.
> 
> Dan


I think that was Golden State and Don Nelson(?) who found him first. we just stole him, and then Houston stole him from us (in a bad trade).

shoulda sent them Tracey "Defense?" Murray.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dkap</b>!
> 
> Rudy T was quite the fella at finding those aberrations en masse. We even had a pretty good one of them ourselves in Mario Elie.


I'm curious as to who you're talking about that Rudy T found.

I agree that Elie was another late-bloomer (to go with Bowen and Armstrong). He actually WAS drafted, but he's so old that it was before the modern 2-round draft, so saying he was drafted isn't saying much since it was the 5th round.

And Elie was actually a guy who debuted at age 26 under the 76ers coached by... Jim Lynam.

Ed O.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> And Elie was actually a guy who debuted at age 26 under the 76ers coached by... Jim Lynam.
> 
> Ed O.


Mario was waived several times during his career. For some reason, I thought he was picked up first by the Warriors..but I think he was drafted by Don Nelson, and then got his first real break with Don Nelson



> Selected by the Milwaukee Bucks in the seventh round (160th pick overall) of the 1985 NBA Draft ... Waived by the Bucks on 7/25/85.*1* Played in Portugal, Argentina, and Ireland from 1985-86 to 1988-89 ... Played in the United States Basketball League in 1987 ... Played in the CBA in 1989-90 and 1990-91 ...
> 
> * Signed as a free agent by the Los Angeles Lakers on 10/2/90. Waived by the Lakers on 10/15/90 ... 2 *
> 
> Signed to a 10-day contract by the Philadelphia 76ers on 12/28/90 ...*3*


from this point on he wasn't waived anymore. But he didn't stick with any team till he was 26-27. 

why didn't he make it? Better players maybe, or teams just not thinking he was good enough. But he was a vital cog on the Rockets 2 title teams, and the Spurs 99 title team.


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

My point wasn't where Elie started out, rather that he bounced around (A LOT!) and found great success later on.



> I'm curious as to who you're talking about that Rudy T found.


At least 2-3 significant contributors at any given time were CBA pickups or players no other team showed interest in. The names escape me right now, but Matt something or other at PG was one. As I recall, Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell weren't all that highly regarded before finding their niche with Houston.

Dan


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> why didn't he (Elie) make it? Better players maybe, or teams just not thinking he was good enough. But he was a vital cog on the Rockets 2 title teams, and the Spurs 99 title team.


From what I recall, Mario was able to add a respectable outside threat to go with his obvious athletic and defensive talents. His overall understanding of how to play the game had also improved. Thats how Don Nelson spun it here by the Bay.

IMO it hasn't been Richie's outside shot thats been keeping him from sticking on an NBA roster. It's been his inability to both create his shot and defend his man. Maybe Zach and SAR in the post will be enough to make his outside threat effective, but I don't see how thats going to help him out on the other end much. 

STOMP


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>dkap</b>!
> As I recall, Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell weren't all that highly regarded before finding their niche with Houston.


The Jet was highly regarded enough to be drafted #6 overall by the Kings in 1987. Vernon slipped into the 2nd round of the 1988 draft dispite having a standout college career at Florida scoring 20 pts+ his Jr and SR years. If I recall correctly, Mad Max's volatile makeup had everything to do with his drop. Both KS and VM had athletism and some talent, but it wasn't until they honed their skills and played with a truely dominant Big that they found success in the league.

STOMP


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

I didn't realize Smith was drafted that high. What was his production like prior to the championship run(s)? I don't remember him being better than average, if even that, then suddenly he was at a dominant level in the right setting.

Dan


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

John Starks might be another good example.

Dan


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>dkap</b>!
> I didn't realize Smith was drafted that high. What was his production like prior to the championship run(s)? I don't remember him being better than average, if even that, then suddenly he was at a dominant level in the right setting.


http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=SMITHKE01

As a King he made All-Rookie followed by a very impressive 2nd year (from a stats perspective at least...17 pts/8 assts). That was achieved on a loser in a small unhyped market, so maybe thats why it didn't make much of an impression with you??? maybe rightfully so. 

IMO he was a pretty decent all around guard from the get go, and he could always shoot back to when he started as a Frosh at UNC, but playing with The Dream raised both his game and celebrity.

STOMP


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

Nice article on Frahm from Today's O


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