# The Kobe Factor



## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Thought I would run some stats...some mention on the local talk radio stations have mentioned this but not really run with it. The numbers are astonishing.

Through 21 games: 601 points. 202 in 9 wins, 399 in 12 losses.

Win average: 22.45.
Loss average: 33.25.

Delimiters:

Lakers' record when Kobe scores 30 or more: 1-9.
Lakers' record when Kobe scores 29 or less: 8-3.

Lakers' record when Kobe scores 25 or more: 3-12.
Lakers' record when Kobe scores 24 or less: 6-0.

Ball don't lie.


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## Laker Freak (Jul 1, 2003)

I think this ends up happening because he normally starts the game off looking to pass. If guys are hitting shots it usually means they open up a big lead and he can cost for the rest of the game.

When his teammates aren't hitting he knows he has no choice but to look for his own shot and that's when you see the 20+ attempts. If he didn't look to score in those situations these close games we keep losing would turn into blow outs.


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## Cajon (Nov 1, 2012)

As my friend would say, "correlation does not imply causation."


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Cajon said:


> As my friend would say, "correlation does not imply causation."


12 games is a pretty good sample size, and I will be updating it game to game as the season wears on.

Defense is the main problem for the losses. But Kobe needs to share the rock also. It will be interesting to see what Nash will do when he spots an open man other than Kobe waving his hand on every play and passes to the other player.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

From what I've watched, it does seem like his high scoring moments come as a reaction to the team struggling and having to crawl back form behind. May not always be winning basketball, as I've seen him take a ton of bad shots in those moments, but he's as good as anyone at hitting absurd shots. I'm inclined to say they should try to go to Dwight a little more when adversity strikes, but I see a lot of complaining about Dwight turning it over or just not garnering confidence in those moments, not to mention the FT shooting.


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## Cajon (Nov 1, 2012)

Ron said:


> 12 games is a pretty good sample size, and I will be updating it game to game as the season wears on.


It is regardless of sample size IMO. :whoknows:



> Defense is the main problem for the losses.


Let me add effort there as they have shown they're fully capable of playing great D.



> But Kobe needs to share the rock also. It will be interesting to see what Nash will do when he spots an open man other than Kobe waving his hand on every play and passes to the other player.


Nash will wave him off for a better shot as was shown in the limited time they played together.



Oh and regarding the stats, I suggest including the shooting %s of the other Laker players to spice things up.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

But that could also be affected by Kobe not getting them involved, or looks in quality spots. It's hard to tell what's affecting what. Really, everything is affecting everything else, both ways, probably. Stats can be extremely misleading without viewing the film meticulously.


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## Cajon (Nov 1, 2012)

Jace said:


> But that could also be affected by Kobe not getting them involved, or looks in quality spots. It's hard to tell what's affecting what. Really, everything is affecting everything else, both ways, probably. Stats can be extremely misleading without viewing the film meticulously.


I only said that it'll add spice. Never have I said or implied any of what you mention regarding the other Laker players. :whoknows:

Might, most likely IMO, even help in analyzing this "Kobe factor."

As for viewing the film meticulously, I believe we have objective Laker/basketball fans here who watch Laker games more often than the casual fan to provide meaningful insights and "evidences."



Oh and I agree that stats without applying context can often be misleading, sometimes even meaningless.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

Well, it seemed like you were making the implication that he scored a lot in those games because his teammates were struggling.

I understand you guys watch the games closely, but with Ron updating that as a composite stat, it's hard to attribute specific play to the numbers.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Your team is weak in the depth department to begin with, and with Gasol and Nash out it makes it even worse.

When I have to hear "Jodie Meeks coming in the game. Now there's a real dynamic young player for you!" from your announcers, you know your bench sucks.

When I have to hear about how amazing Duhon is by the same guys, you know your depth sucks.

If Howard, MWP and Jamison aren't hitting their shots, Kobe has to be Kobe. You guys aren't loaded with options to pick up the slack offensively.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

I can only think of 1 game where he Kobe'd it and that was his flu game where he pretty much chucked the entire 2nd quarter - otherwise I think it's been more chicken (hero ball in a losing situation) than egg ( kobe-ying up an otherwise winnable game)


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## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

I think it just starts to spiral some times. Lakers arent hitting shots or making good cuts, so Kobe takes it upon himself to score. This takes the other guys out of the game more and they lose their rhythm and then there is little movement and bad spacing. This flows over to defense where the other teams get fast breaks and we have bad balance defensively. What Kobe needs to do, is score when the team is really stagnant, but work hard to get other guys motivated and involved afterward. This is not something he has ever really excelled at.

The problem with this team is defense. If Kobe's hero balling is affecting them on the defensive side of the court, I dont know. Some times it looks like it to me, but its not like the defense gets better when Kobe is not on the court.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

elcap15 said:


> The problem with this team is defense. If Kobe's hero balling is affecting them on the defensive side of the court, I dont know. Some times it looks like it to me, but its not like the defense gets better when Kobe is not on the court.


Phil's mentioned this before. Saying when Kobe doesn't involve them they lose rythm and energy on both ends of the court. It's only natural that you are just stagnant standing around on one end and then asked to switch gears and bust ass on the other... not as easy to do.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Through 22 games: 643 points. 202 in 9 wins, 441 in 13 losses.

Win average: 22.45.
Loss average: 33.92.

Delimiters:

Lakers' record when Kobe scores 30 or more: 1-10.
Lakers' record when Kobe scores 29 or less: 8-3.

Lakers' record when Kobe scores 25 or more: 3-13.
Lakers' record when Kobe scores 24 or less: 6-0.

I really don't know if I want to keep up with these depressing stats.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Stupid stat. Lakers wouldn't even be in these games if Kobe wasn't doing what he was doing. Tonight Kobe was 16/28 shooting. The rest of the team was 15/47. But let's blame Kobe for our losses.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

The Lakers had 11 assists tonight.  Kyrie Irving by himself had 11.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

didnt see the game but I know you cant get dimes from the free throw line and it looks like hack-a-dwight was in full effect


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Basel said:


> Stupid stat. Lakers wouldn't even be in these games if Kobe wasn't doing what he was doing. Tonight Kobe was 16/28 shooting. The rest of the team was 15/47. But let's blame Kobe for our losses.


So what you are saying is that the rest of the team only shoots well when Kobe is not so selfish?


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Like Twain said there's two kinds of lies: Damn lies and statistics. You can make stats say whatever you wish. 

Ron, you have the wrong stats. What you should count is the record when the others shoot 40% or better, 50% or better etc...

When you have two starters combine for 4 pts and Artest is your third option, Kobe could score 81 and it wouldn't work.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Ron said:


> So what you are saying is that the rest of the team only shoots well when Kobe is not so selfish?


Who exactly should he be passing to ?

And what does that have to do with getting back on defense which is the real problem ?


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

e-monk said:


> didnt see the game but I know you cant get dimes from the free throw line and it looks like hack-a-dwight was in full effect


Hack-A-Dwight wasn't in effect at all.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Ron said:


> So what you are saying is that the rest of the team only shoots well when Kobe is not so selfish?


Just because Kobe doesn't have the assist numbers, it doesn't mean he's being selfish. Did it ever occur to you he passes but his teammates just aren't hitting?


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

LA68 said:


> Like Twain said there's two kinds of lies: Damn lies and statistics. You can make stats say whatever you wish.
> 
> Ron, you have the wrong stats. What you should count is the record when the others shoot 40% or better, 50% or better etc...
> 
> When you have two starters combine for 4 pts and Artest is your third option, Kobe could score 81 and it wouldn't work.


That's my whole point. There are a limited amount possessions.

What comes first, the chicken or the egg? Are the Lakers really going to score 37 points for the entire game if Kobe misses the Indiana game? Get real.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Basel said:


> Just because Kobe doesn't have the assist numbers, it doesn't mean he's being selfish. Did it ever occur to you he passes but his teammates just aren't hitting?


And did it ever occur to you that he isn't passing and his teammates cannot get into the flow of the game?

It cuts both ways.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Basel said:


> Just because Kobe doesn't have the assist numbers, it doesn't mean he's being selfish. Did it ever occur to you he passes but his teammates just aren't hitting?


Basel you don't have to argue. Just give a link to the box score where two starters went 2/8 in about 60 mins of action. No one did anything of significance outside of Kobe and Howard. 

They would be better grabbing three kids from the D-League, at least they would get back on defense !


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

And as I said above, if you apply that kind of logic, the Lakers score only 52 points tonight. And 37 against Indiana.

Obviously, that's ridiculous. But the bigger question is: Will this team PLAY as a TEAM if Kobe continues to shoot lights out?


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

LA68 said:


> Basel you don't have to argue. Just give a link to the box score where two starters went 2/8 in about 60 mins of action. No one did anything of significance outside of Kobe and Howard.
> 
> They would be better grabbing three kids from the D-League, at least they would get back on defense !


You ever play the game? You ever stand around when someone else is hogging the ball, no matter how good they are? Besides being irritated, how was your ability to make baskets when you finally (if ever) got the ball into your own hands?


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Ron said:


> And did it ever occur to you that he isn't passing and his teammates cannot get into the flow of the game?
> 
> It cuts both ways.


He IS passing, though. Maybe not like a PG since that isn't his job, but he's passing. When his teammates aren't hitting (which has often been the case), that's when he starts to shoot more and score a lot.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Basel said:


> He IS passing, though. Maybe not like a PG since that isn't his job, but he's passing. When his teammates aren't hitting (which has often been the case), that's when he starts to shoot more and score a lot.


Which somehow translates into losses just about every time. It is quite clear "hero ball" doesn't work with this team.

Add that to an atrocious defense and we are 9-13.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Adam said:


> The Lakers had 11 assists tonight. Kyrie Irving by himself had 11.


Thanks for the insight Adam.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

Kinda wild seeing all of those great Kobe games go to waste.



R-Star said:


> Thanks for the insight Adam.


I'm sure the Laker faithful here appreciate your "you guys suck" offerings much more.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Jace said:


> I'm sure the Laker faithful here appreciate your "you guys suck" offerings much more.


He has to get them in now while he still can...we all know this team will turn it around...don't we?


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

When Paul George becomes George Gervin.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Jace said:


> Kinda wild seeing all of those great Kobe games go to waste.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure the Laker faithful here appreciate your "you guys suck" offerings much more.


I post with Laker fans daily.

Not like some *unnecessary* who shows up in losses to rub it in Laker fans faces. How many threads has Fairweather Adam posted in when the Lakers win?


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

R-Star said:


> I post with Laker fans daily.
> 
> Not like some who shows up in losses to rub it in Laker fans faces. How many threads has Fairweather Adam posted in when the Lakers win?


doctordrizzay is even worse. He is really close to being banned from this team board.

Adam is okay, try to keep name calling out of the posts.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Ron said:


> You ever play the game? You ever stand around when someone else is hogging the ball, no matter how good they are? Besides being irritated, how was your ability to make baskets when you finally (if ever) got the ball into your own hands?


The Lakers supposedly have that taken care of. They hired this guy they call a "coach" and its his job to handle that. 

I can solve it for both of us. What the heck is he playing 40 mins a night in the first place ?? He can't hog the ball sitting down can he ?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

R-Star does post with the Laker fans on this board pretty regularly, he's not trolling. Really the only excessive troll we have around these parts is doctordrizzay, even Adam only shows up like five times a year with a one liner.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

And Kobe is not the problem. As others have touched on, somebody has to put up points, if the rest of the team feels content to play passively or shitty in general then somebody has to step up and take action. It may not necessary be conducive to winning basketball, but neither is trying to get incompetent players involved in the offense.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

You guys know better than I do from watching him every game, but from what I've seen I don't really think it's fair to look at those numbers and infer that Kobe shooting and scoring a lot makes the Lakers lose. In fact I would argue the reverse is actually closer to the truth -- Kobe shoots a lot when the Lakers are losing to try to get them back in it. His efficiency has been superb this year. 

To me it's similar to passing yards in football. Some of the biggest passing numbers in NFL history are put up in losses from quarterbacks trying to make up a deficit quickly. Passing the ball a lot does not cause your team to lose, it is often a symptom of falling behind. Kobe shooting and looking to score on his own is like passing, running your offense is like running the football. You try to establish the run early, but if you get down sometimes you need Kobe to try and bring you back. Everyone knows he's capable of scoring and scoring in bunches. 

I agree with R-Star, the glaring issue is obviously the lack of depth, particularly with Nash and Gasol out.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Luke said:


> R-Star does post with the Laker fans on this board pretty regularly, he's not trolling. Really the only excessive troll we have around these parts is doctordrizzay, even Adam only shows up like five times a year with a one liner.


R-Star isn't a Lakers troll, but he is an Adam troll.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Ron said:


> doctordrizzay is even worse. He is really close to being banned from this team board.


I called it in the preseason! Ron would end up banning him from this board!



Basel said:


> He IS passing, though. Maybe not like a PG since that isn't his job, but he's passing. When his teammates aren't hitting (which has often been the case), that's when he starts to shoot more and score a lot.


Sorry, but I literally don't remember him making a play for anyone tonight. Only time he would pass is when he picked up his dribble and didn't like the shot. But he would look hard at that rim before he did pass.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

King Sancho approves of R-Star.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

hobojoe said:


> You guys know better than I do from watching him every game, but from what I've seen I don't really think it's fair to look at those numbers and infer that Kobe shooting and scoring a lot makes the Lakers lose. In fact I would argue the reverse is actually closer to the truth -- Kobe shoots a lot when the Lakers are losing to try to get them back in it. His efficiency has been superb this year.
> 
> To me it's similar to passing yards in football. Some of the biggest passing numbers in NFL history are put up in losses from quarterbacks trying to make up a deficit quickly. Passing the ball a lot does not cause your team to lose, it is often a symptom of falling behind. Kobe shooting and looking to score on his own is like passing, running your offense is like running the football. You try to establish the run early, but if you get down sometimes you need Kobe to try and bring you back. Everyone knows he's capable of scoring and scoring in bunches.
> 
> I agree with R-Star, the glaring issue is obviously the lack of depth, particularly with Nash and Gasol out.


I like the bench a lot more than I did a month ago.

Denver, Clippers, Spurs... maybe the Knicks. Only teams I can think of where depth wouldn't be an issue if they were missing 2 of their 4 best players. Take Ibaka and Martin off OKC. Take Allen and Bosh off Miami.



hobojoe said:


> R-Star isn't a Lakers troll, but he is an Adam troll.


He's trying more. Before it was "shut up Adam, leave the thread!" now he just subtly mocks him. I think the "sorry, I can just draft Norris Cole" thread is what started this.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Just want to add that R-star has trolled in here for sure in the past (re: Bynum two years ago) but at least back then I didn't mind since he was passionate and thorough about his opinion and it lead to good banter. Adam and drizzay just come in here and state a negative fact about the Lakers and leave.

"CJ Miles was averaging 6 points a game coming in to tonight" 

(exits thread)

That adds nothing.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> I called it in the preseason! Ron would end up banning him from this board!
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but I literally don't remember him making a play for anyone tonight. Only time he would pass is when he picked up his dribble and didn't like the shot. But he would look hard at that rim before he did pass.


Maybe not tonight, but I'm talking about overall this season.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

hobojoe said:


> R-Star isn't a Lakers troll, but he is an Adam troll.


Now THAT I would put in my sig if it weren't for the Kings being the defending SC champions! Repped.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> I called it in the preseason! Ron would end up banning him from this board!
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but I literally don't remember him making a play for anyone tonight. Only time he would pass is when he picked up his dribble and didn't like the shot. But he would look hard at that rim before he did pass.


It hasn't happened yet. I am hoping he gets the message loud and clear.

But I'm pretty sure he can't resist one more troll post. Then its curtains...so he better make it a good one. :|


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Ron said:


> It hasn't happened yet. I am hoping he gets the message loud and clear.
> 
> But I'm pretty sure he can't resist one more troll post. Then its curtains...so he better make it a good one. :|


Does "hey guys, how's it going?" Count as a good troll post?


Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Basel said:


> Hack-A-Dwight wasn't in effect at all.


he went to the line 22 times is why I thought maybe


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

It was for one possession at the end. For some reason, up 7 with under a minute left, Scott fouled Dwight when he caught the ball early in the shotclock instead of letting them run time. Dwight hit both FT's.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

so the rest were just regular during the course of the game things? that would explain the only 9 shots


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

It comes down to the simple fact that Kobe does not make his teammates better. Not trolling but this is how I always felt. He doesn't trust them enough.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Heat fans sure love posting in here.


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

R-Star said:


> Heat fans sure love posting in here.


And you like posting everywhere, let us be thread whores for once.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

No.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> Does "hey guys, how's it going?" Count as a good troll post?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


He gets a pass on that because it was a few days ago. I remember seeing it, Jamel. Just one more troll post and he's history on this board. Promise.

P.S. If you see something before I do, PM me and I will pull the plug on the good doctor.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

doctordrizzay said:


> It comes down to the simple fact that Kobe does not make his teammates better. Not trolling but this is how I always felt. He doesn't trust them enough.


Likewise, if you post thoughtfully like this no ban. I'm good with you (or anyone else, for that matter) coming into any team board as long as the posts are thoughtful and respectful.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Ron said:


> He gets a pass on that because it was a few days ago. I remember seeing it, Jamel. Just one more troll post and he's history on this board. Promise.
> 
> P.S. If you see something before I do, PM me and I will pull the plug on the good doctor.


I honestly don't care either way. His posts don't bother me, they are just a waste of space.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Through 23 games: 674 points. 202 in 9 wins, 472 in 14 losses.

Win average: 22.45.
Loss average: 33.71.

Delimiters:

Lakers' record when Kobe scores 30 or more: 1-11.
Lakers' record when Kobe scores 29 or less: 8-3.

Lakers' record when Kobe scores 25 or more: 3-14.
Lakers' record when Kobe scores 24 or less: 6-0.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Through 24 games: 704 points. 232 in 10 wins, 472 in 14 losses.

Win average: 23.20.
Loss average: 33.71.

Delimiters:

Lakers' record when Kobe scores 30 or more: 2-11.
Lakers' record when Kobe scores 29 or less: 8-3.

Lakers' record when Kobe scores 25 or more: 4-14.
Lakers' record when Kobe scores 24 or less: 6-0.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Through 25 games: 738 points. 266 in 11 wins, 472 in 14 losses.

Win average: 24.18.
Loss average: 33.71.

Delimiters:

Lakers' record when Kobe scores 30 or more: 3-11.
Lakers' record when Kobe scores 29 or less: 8-3.

Lakers' record when Kobe scores 25 or more: 5-14.
Lakers' record when Kobe scores 24 or less: 6-0.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Through 26 games: 768 points. 296 in 12 wins, 472 in 14 losses.

Win average: 24.67.
Loss average: 33.71.

Delimiters:

Lakers' record when Kobe scores 30 or more: 4-11. (3 in a row.)
Lakers' record when Kobe scores 29 or less: 8-3.

Lakers' record when Kobe scores 25 or more: 6-14.
Lakers' record when Kobe scores 24 or less: 6-0.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Are we seriously still caring about this completely useless stat?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

I'm more concerned about his minutes per game


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## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

I think Kobe's play against the Bobcats was really detrimental to the team. We need a facilitator, and when Kobe doesnt do it, there really isnt anyone who can right now.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Basel said:


> Are we seriously still caring about this completely useless stat?


Just ignore it if you don't like it. I think its instructive that we now have won 3 in a row where Kobe has scored more than 30 points.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

elcap15 said:


> I think Kobe's play against the Bobcats was really detrimental to the team. We need a facilitator, and when Kobe doesnt do it, there really isnt anyone who can right now.


We'll be okay once Nash comes back (in the facilitator department, I mean).

What's going to be interesting to me is to see how many times Kobe raises his arm during the game calling for the ball when Nash is doing all the quarterbacking.

Our defense (or lack thereof) is the biggest issue to me right now. The Bobcats (!) guards tore us a new one during that third period...the only reason they didn't beat the Lakers by a wide margin is for some inexplicable reason they went away from consistently driving the lane.

Losing teams find a way to lose, and that is the definition of the Bobcats for far too long.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

That inexplicable reason was that we finally decided to stop dribble penetration. Morris and Meeks played excellent defense on Kemba, Gordon and Sessions down the stretch.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Ron said:


> Just ignore it if you don't like it. I think its instructive that we now have won 3 in a row where Kobe has scored more than 30 points.


This is a strange thread to be made, considering Kobe, so far, has been scoring better than ever (%-wise) before.

i don't mind Kobe shooting a lot. If he makes plenty of the shots taken, that is.

BTW, besides Howard, no player in the Lakers roster is averaging over .470FG% besides Kobe Bryant.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Ron said:


> Our defense (or lack thereof) is the biggest issue to me right now. The Bobcats (!) guards tore us a new one during that third period...the only reason they didn't beat the Lakers by a wide margin is for some inexplicable reason they went away from consistently driving the lane.


one of the big defensive problems Im hoping Nash will solve is that we turn the ball over way too much and dont have the athletes to transition back so are getting killed on the break - less turnovers and more efficiency should cover up some of those blemishes


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## MojoPin (Oct 10, 2008)

Are there any sites that keep track of the average amount of points scored off turnovers against the Lakers? I would be curious to see that statistic.


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## Laker Freak (Jul 1, 2003)

UPDATE:

Lakers are now 1-0 when Kobe shoots 40 times or more.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> I honestly don't care either way. His posts don't bother me, they are just a waste of space.


He can go waste his space somewhere else, he is done on the Laker board.


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