# It's time for Derrick to play.



## thebizkit69u

Everyone here knows that I'm a big critic of the lack of talent on this team, the lack of vision from the front office and a huge Derrick Rose supporter, but honestly I think its time for Rose to play and by him holding out, its just flat out unfair to the rest of these guys. 

For one, hes physically ready to play. The doctors have cleared him to play, so he NEEDS TO PLAY. Granted, I understand his lack of confidence is the major hurdle, but the only way hes going to get over it, is by playing in meaningful games. No amount of extended rest is going to bring back the old Derrick Rose, he needs to test himself and push himself. I get that Iman Shumpert and Ricky Rubio din't come back the same but the point is they pushed themselves to come back. Rubio has played MUCH MUCH better of late, so has Shumpert. 

Second, its just not fair to the mediocre talent on this team, that has overachieved and played their asses off for half a season. You got guys like Noah battling through injuries, you got Hinrich playing half dead, but at least he tries to come back after every setback. These guys are a lottery team without Rose, but they played inspired ball with the idea that if they stay afloat, that Derrick would return to give them an extra boost. Alas, Derrick has refused to come back and its no secret that this decision has deflated the Bulls, they are just giving up of late. 

It pains me to question Rose's heart, but its damn obvious that hes getting some dumb advice. Derrick needs to prove to himself that he can come back, he needs to understand that hes not just going to all of a sudden comeback the same exact player, he will struggle and he needs to experience these struggles NOW, not in the playoffs.


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## RollWithEm

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*

The passionate fandom on display in that post brought a tear to my eye.


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## thebizkit69u

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



RollWithEm said:


> The passionate fandom on display in that post brought a tear to my eye.


A sarcastic reply from a Jazz fan is quite surprising. I expected this from a Pacers fan, not a Western Conference fan lol.


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## RollWithEm

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



thebizkit69u said:


> A sarcastic reply from a Jazz fan is quite surprising. I expected this from a Pacers fan, not a Western Conference fan lol.


First, that wasn't sarcastic. 

Second, I hate the Jazz. I'm from New Orleans... the rightful home of the Jazz moniker.


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## transplant

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*

As Thibodeau has become fond of saying, "nothing's changed." Depending on your perspective, it was time to play on Feb 18 when the docs cleared him...or the next day...or the next week...or the week after that...

...or now...

...or ?

bizkit, you're ready now, maybe the Sacramento debacle flipped your switch, but you ain't Rose.

I ain't Rose either and since I haven't walked a mile in his shoes, I won't judge him. This said, yeah, this team is on life support and sure could use the lift his return would bring.

And FWIW, I didn't think RollWithEm's response was sarcastic.


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## RollWithEm

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



transplant said:


> And FWIW, I didn't think RollWithEm's response was sarcastic.


I legitimately respect passionate fans.


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## Dornado

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*

I like how we're still a lottery team without Rose... despite the fact that we're clearly better than a lottery team without Rose... silly.

I don't know where I really sit on this... I think Derrick Rose will come back when he's ready and I'm not particularly worried about it, I guess. I think it is fair to say that the Bulls front office didn't go all-out this past offseason, probably understanding that we weren't going to have Derrick at full strength this year(which may be the source of Reggie Rose's frustration). If he doesn't play this year I'll be disappointed but not heartbroken, and I don't think he's doing a disservice to his teammates by coming back on his own timetable. I do have to give credit to Bizkit for making Kirk Hinrich's constant injuries seem like an act of heroism.

I've heard the "he needs to come back and play on it to really come back" argument, and to me that is the only compelling reason I've heard as to why he should come back now... its just hard for me to gauge whether or not he could make a similar recovery by practicing and engaging in his off-season workouts or if actual NBA game play is a necessity.


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## Diable

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*

I'm willing to trade some of the mediocre players on the bobcats for Noah or some of these other mediocre players on the Bulls.


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## jnrjr79

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



Dornado said:


> I like how we're still a lottery team without Rose... despite the fact that we're clearly better than a lottery team without Rose... silly.
> 
> I don't know where I really sit on this... I think Derrick Rose will come back when he's ready and I'm not particularly worried about it, I guess. I think it is fair to say that the Bulls front office didn't go all-out this past offseason, probably understanding that we weren't going to have Derrick at full strength this year(which may be the source of Reggie Rose's frustration). If he doesn't play this year I'll be disappointed but not heartbroken, and I don't think he's doing a disservice to his teammates by coming back on his own timetable. I do have to give credit to Bizkit for making Kirk Hinrich's constant injuries seem like an act of heroism.
> 
> I've heard the "he needs to come back and play on it to really come back" argument, and to me that is the only compelling reason I've heard as to why he should come back now... its just hard for me to gauge whether or not he could make a similar recovery by practicing and engaging in his off-season workouts or if actual NBA game play is a necessity.



Well, bizkit's assertion that this team would be a lottery team sans Rose has clearly been demonstrated false. However, the point he's making in this thread I believe to be true. Rose's own surgeon says he won't complete his recovery until he plays in live games. Based on all information available, it appears he should be playing now or playing very soon, at the least. In any event, there seems to be no support for the notion that he needs to sit out the remainder of the year.


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## Da Grinch

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*

in life as in sports , you earn respect .

rose has earned more than enough to the point where i trust his judgement.

if anything he has a history of not fully healing before he suits up, its time when derrick says so.


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## PD

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*

Kobe tried to play to night. He makes Rose look pretty bad.


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## bullsger

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



PD said:


> Kobe tried to play to night. He makes Rose look pretty bad.


 
tittle-tattle


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## thebizkit69u

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*

People can debate the overall talent on this team all they want. The Bulls are a first round exit team, they are 10-16 against the Western conference, nothing about this team screams above mediocre. Go ahead and point out their meaningless record against the joke that is the Eastern Conference, but lets just get real. The Bulls are playing above their lottery status because of the fine job that Thibs has done. You guys wan't to get into a debate about this fine, but lets stick to the topic.



> bizkit, you're ready now, maybe the Sacramento debacle flipped your switch, but you ain't Rose.


Actually the Doctors and BULLS think hes ready, in fact he HAS BEEN READY to play for a while now.


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## BobStackhouse42

Selfishly I just want to see him play because he's so fun to watch.


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## yodurk

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*

Until recently I never doubted Rose's passion to return for a microsecond and knew he would return as soon as physically able. And on some level I still don't doubt this. 

However, the stuff we hear via Ric Bucher (who is clearly tied into Rose's circle) and Reggie Rose's comments make me think Derrick is getting bad advice that goes against conventional medical wisdom. Derrick is a loyal guy and IMO caught in the middle, but at the end of the day he's not going against what his brother says, as we all know the influence his brother has in his life. 

The worrisome part about that is, Reggie is using the situation to gain leverage over the organization and in the process doing his brother a major disservice, and making him look bad PR wise (at least to anyone paying attention!).

So in general I believe Derrick is trying to please everybody which is impossible. He just needs to accept the fact he won't be 100% when he comes back whether he returns tomorrow or a year from now. He will always have to get over that hump of playing in NBA games.


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## thebizkit69u

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



yodurk said:


> Until recently I never doubted Rose's passion to return for a microsecond and knew he would return as soon as physically able. And on some level I still don't doubt this.
> 
> However, the stuff we hear via Ric Bucher (who is clearly tied into Rose's circle) and Reggie Rose's comments make me think Derrick is getting bad advice that goes against conventional medical wisdom. Derrick is a loyal guy and IMO caught in the middle, but at the end of the day he's not going against what his brother says, as we all know the influence his brother has in his life.
> 
> The worrisome part about that is, Reggie is using the situation to gain leverage over the organization and in the process doing his brother a major disservice, and making him look bad PR wise (at least to anyone paying attention!).
> 
> So in general I believe Derrick is trying to please everybody which is impossible. He just needs to accept the fact he won't be 100% when he comes back whether he returns tomorrow or a year from now. He will always have to get over that hump of playing in NBA games.


Pretty much spot on.

One major thing that kinda slipped through the cracks, was that Thibs said Rose might, might not play against the Warriors. This is very important because Tom is a guy who doesn't really reveal much of anything, and he especially dint reveal much about Rose's situation for the majority of the season. This has me believe that Tom is the one who is giving Rose the much needed kick in the ass to get on the court, and it might mean that Rose might just play in the Bulls next home game.


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## yodurk

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



thebizkit69u said:


> Pretty much spot on.
> 
> One major thing that kinda slipped through the cracks, was that Thibs said Rose might, might not play against the Warriors. This is very important because Tom is a guy who doesn't really reveal much of anything, and he especially dint reveal much about Rose's situation for the majority of the season. This has me believe that Tom is the one who is giving Rose the much needed kick in the ass to get on the court, and it might mean that Rose might just play in the Bulls next home game.


Yeah I caught that too. Thibs is probably the one guy who can get away with putting some pressure on Rose right now. You know how much Rose loves and respects Thibs, and I doubt anyone would accuse Thibs of carrying out the front office agenda. That just isn't his MO.


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## mvP to the Wee

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*

If Rose has been cleared for full contact practice then that means he's healthy to play in games. We need him back, not for a basketball winning standpoint, but because it's part of the recovery and 18 months without playing a game is quite a long time.


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## PD

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*

Rose is slowly looking pretty bad PR-wise. You can always play every other game. If you are healthy and not coming back when you are the leader of the team, you look pretty bad.


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## thebizkit69u

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



PD said:


> Rose is slowly looking pretty bad PR-wise. You can always play every other game. If you are healthy and not coming back when you are the leader of the team, you look pretty bad.


Outside of the PR hit, whats even more important to remember is that PLAYING is a huge part of the recovery process! By not playing, he is avoiding the next phase in the recovery process. Derrick is NOT going to be the same player when he comes back, at least not at first. Whoever is telling Rose that if he waits he will return just the exact same, is giving Rose the wrong advice.


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## transplant

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*

I'm not denying that there's a bit of a "PR hit." Based on my listening to local sports-talk, for the first time, there are callers who are basically calling DRose a "wuss."

Provided that he returns in the next week or so, I expect that PR hit to pretty much evaporate. On the other hand, if he were to actually sit out until next season, it might take winning a championship to erase the memories.


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## Da Grinch

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



yodurk said:


> Until recently I never doubted Rose's passion to return for a microsecond and knew he would return as soon as physically able. And on some level I still don't doubt this.
> 
> However, the stuff we hear via Ric Bucher (who is clearly tied into Rose's circle) and Reggie Rose's comments make me think Derrick is getting bad advice that goes against conventional medical wisdom. Derrick is a loyal guy and IMO caught in the middle, but at the end of the day he's not going against what his brother says, as we all know the influence his brother has in his life.
> 
> The worrisome part about that is, Reggie is using the situation to gain leverage over the organization and in the process doing his brother a major disservice, and making him look bad PR wise (at least to anyone paying attention!).
> 
> So in general I believe Derrick is trying to please everybody which is impossible. He just needs to accept the fact he won't be 100% when he comes back whether he returns tomorrow or a year from now. He will always have to get over that hump of playing in NBA games.


i strongly disagree.

no one is talking about rose coming in and easing his way in like most players coming off an acl tear, for instance iman shumpert tore his acl the same day and came back 2 months ago , but has yet to play more than 33 minutes in any game.

when jamal crawford came back from his acl tear he played 2 months played 23 games and never more than 31 minutes.

rose is the star of the team , by far its most impressive talent, his level of play has to be at a certain place for him to play, coupled with his style of play, he can't afford to take his time and find his way over the next 2 months, when he comes back he has to be at 35+ minutes within 2 weeks because his team has to work around him in time for the playoffs, they can't still be working him in at that point.

now lets entertain for a moment that all the negativity is right and that rose is merely using his health temporarily as a negotiating tool to improve his team, if the end result of this is the bulls get better in the long run and they are able to compete with the powers of the league at a more even level, or better yet it eases a possible resentment growing between the rose camp and the bulls FO and reggie rose's salvo was a calculated attack right after the trade deadline. thus preventing an ugly feud before it becomes more than a squabble.

and all it cost was a week or so of rose not playing...either way rose not playing should be supported , it doesn't make a lot of sense to side with management unless the belief is they will only make it worse, and if rose is on the up and up and just trying to make sure he is confident in his body and role, it makes people look small and desperate questioning a player who has never given reason to be questioned.


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## thebizkit69u

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



Da Grinch said:


> rose is the star of the team , by far its most impressive talent, his level of play has to be at a certain place for him to play, coupled with his style of play, he can't afford to take his time and find his way over the next 2 months, when he comes back he has to be at 35+ minutes within 2 weeks because his team has to work around him in time for the playoffs, they can't still be working him in at that point.


Which is why he should have been playing a long time ago!


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## Da Grinch

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



thebizkit69u said:


> Which is why he should have been playing a long time ago!


no its why he would need more time .

i dont think you understand there is a huge difference between playing 5 on 5's and 35 minutes a game nba shape.

from an article today,


> When Derrick Rose returns to the Chicago Bulls, he is expecting to be more confident in his three-point shooting and could be more dangerous offensively than before.
> 
> *"I'm feeling healthy, man," Rose said after a 70-plus minute pregame workout Friday. "That's the only thing that matters."
> 
> There is not a target date for Rose's return, but he is "at the end of the tunnel" of his rehabilitation process, according to a source close to the point guard.
> 
> Tom Thibodeau believes the Bulls have not pressured Rose to come back.
> 
> "This kid has done everything to come back," Thibodeau said. "When he is ready, he'll be ready and we will know. He is getting closer. We don't want him out there unless he's completely comfortable. He's handled his part great. Everyone has to remain patient, let him work through it and he's going to be fine."*


i bolded the only parts that mattered everything else people are saying is 3rd party hearsay or pure speculation.


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## jnrjr79

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



thebizkit69u said:


> People can debate the overall talent on this team all they want. The Bulls are a first round exit team, they are 10-16 against the Western conference, nothing about this team screams above mediocre. Go ahead and point out their meaningless record against the joke that is the Eastern Conference, but lets just get real.



It's kinda funny that you were strident about how the Bulls would not make the playoffs with a roster without Rose, have been proven wrong on that point, but now pivot and declare it "meaningless." Convenient, eh?

By no means am I declaring the Bulls without Rose to be an elite team. Still, they are a middle-of-the-pack squad. With Rose? They are probably the 4th best team in the NBA. And you'll recall, Derrick Rose is actually on the team, right?


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## Diable

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*

I don't think anyone can be viewed as a first round exit team in the East, unless you plan on playing Miami. Not saying Chicago is very scary, but who the hell else are they (and their fans) supposed to be scared of?


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## thebizkit69u

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



Da Grinch said:


> no its why he would need more time .
> 
> i dont think you understand there is a huge difference between playing 5 on 5's and 35 minutes a game nba shape.
> 
> from an article today,


This is just wrong. You are still talking about Rose as if his knee is not healed yet. IT IS, he has been cleared to play for a while now! The next step in the recovery process is to PLAY. No more amount of rest is going to magically make Rose return to his previous form, no more amount of rest is going to guarantee a "from the get go" 35+ mpg Rose. 

He will be on a minute limit anyways once he comes back. What makes more sense? Having Rose try to gel with this team on a minutes limit in the playoffs, or have him work his way back to form BEFORE the playoffs? I think this is a no brainer. 



> I don't think anyone can be viewed as a first round exit team in the East, unless you plan on playing Miami. Not saying Chicago is very scary, but who the hell else are they (and their fans) supposed to be scared of?


They got handled by the 8th seed last year.



> It's kinda funny that you were strident about how the Bulls would not make the playoffs with a roster without Rose, have been proven wrong on that point, but now pivot and declare it "meaningless." Convenient, eh?
> 
> By no means am I declaring the Bulls without Rose to be an elite team. Still, they are a middle-of-the-pack squad. With Rose? They are probably the 4th best team in the NBA. And you'll recall, Derrick Rose is actually on the team, right?


They are an irrelevant team without Rose. To me, there isn't much of difference between an Eastern Conference 5th seed and a lottery team. You want to "hurrah" the fact that such teams can make the playoffs go ahead. The Bulls are irrelevant right now, thats just a fact. Thibs has done an amazing job with this team, any other coach and we are talking about who to draft with our lottery pick.


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## jnrjr79

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



thebizkit69u said:


> They are an irrelevant team without Rose.



So what? Do you believe there is a team in the NBA that could win a championship without its best player?


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## RollWithEm

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



jnrjr79 said:


> So what? Do you believe there is a team in the NBA that could win a championship without its best player?


Boston will certainly be giving it a go this season.


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## thebizkit69u

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



jnrjr79 said:


> So what? Do you believe there is a team in the NBA that could win a championship without its best player?


I'm not talking about winning a title, they can't even win a series without their best player!


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## Dornado

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*

Wilbon says it isn't worth it:

http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/story/_/id/9065399/derrick-rose-chicago-bulls-sit-rest-season



> We're talking about a 10-year decision Rose is making, which ought to suggest to the know-it-alls it's infinitely wiser to err on the side of caution, whether that means returning for the final three weeks of this season or not until training camp. The know-it-alls obviously have forgotten about Gilbert Arenas, who before his gun issues was one of the 10 best players in the game from 2004 to 2006. He thought he was appeasing a whole lot of people when he tried to sprint back from major knee surgery in 2007. All his expedited return got him was one physical setback after another and at 30 years old Arenas was playing in China, a shell of his old self.
> 
> The reward for Rose returning, say, this week is minimal. To what end? Would his return enable the Bulls to beat Miami in the second round? Third round? No, neither.


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## RollWithEm

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*

There are anecdotal examples on both the positive and negative sides of this discussion. I don't think either hold as much water as what Derrick's own body is telling him. None of us have any insight into that at all.


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## bullsger

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



RollWithEm said:


> None of us have any insight into that at all.


And this is the reason why we should wait patiently.


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## Da Grinch

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



thebizkit69u said:


> This is just wrong. You are still talking about Rose as if his knee is not healed yet. IT IS, he has been cleared to play for a while now! The next step in the recovery process is to PLAY. No more amount of rest is going to magically make Rose return to his previous form, no more amount of rest is going to guarantee a "from the get go" 35+ mpg Rose.
> 
> He will be on a minute limit anyways once he comes back. What makes more sense? Having Rose try to gel with this team on a minutes limit in the playoffs, or have him work his way back to form BEFORE the playoffs? I think this is a no brainer.


his knee is healed but he still has to play confidently on it. he doesn't feel he is ready .

so unless you think he is lying , it comes down to a simple question. who would know better , him or you?
.


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## jnrjr79

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



RollWithEm said:


> Boston will certainly be giving it a go this season.



Yeah, no. 

I kid, I kid. But I certainly don't view Boston as being a real contender this season. 

You would need to be a very ensemble-ish team rather than a superstar-based team to make it happen. I considered San Antonio, but I don't think they could win without their "best player," whomever that is (Toni? Duncan?).


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## jnrjr79

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



thebizkit69u said:


> I'm not talking about winning a title, they can't even win a series without their best player!


So? I'm not sure that really matters.


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## jnrjr79

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



Da Grinch said:


> so unless you think he is lying , it comes down to a simple question. who would know better , him or you?
> .



Actually, that's not the question. The question is who knows better, Derrick or his surgeon?

His surgeon says he needs to play in NBA games _as part of the recovery process_, and not _after_ the recovery process.

This notion that somehow every person knows their own body better than anybody else is silly and is belied by the fact that we sent smart people to school for many years precisely so they can tell us what to do with our own bodies.


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## yodurk

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



jnrjr79 said:


> Actually, that's not the question. The question is who knows better, Derrick or his surgeon?
> 
> His surgeon says he needs to play in NBA games _as part of the recovery process_, and not _after_ the recovery process.
> 
> This notion that somehow every person knows their own body better than anybody else is silly and is belied by the fact that we sent smart people to school for many years precisely so they can tell us what to do with our own bodies.


Exactly. No offense to Derrick, but he's had precisely 1 ACL injury in his career. That means he's never felt what he's feeling, so it's really hard for him to know what is a "safe" feeling. Granted the doctors can't feel what he's feeling, but guys like Dr. Cole have seen hundreds of ACL tears. I think they know the probabilities of when it's safe to come back and when it's not. (That is not to imply their word is infallible...they are human like everyone else, and they will always be wrong some % of the time).

Also, I am constantly seeing people compare the ACL tear to other injuries, everything from broken bones to microfracture surgery recovery. Worse yet, basketball "experts" and former players are doing the same thing. Their lack of attention to detail is honestly kind of disturbing. Returning to play basketball games is not part of rehab from a broken bone, whereas it is the case for ACL recovery.


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## Da Grinch

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



jnrjr79 said:


> Actually, that's not the question. The question is who knows better, Derrick or his surgeon?
> 
> His surgeon says he needs to play in NBA games _as part of the recovery process_, and not _after_ the recovery process.
> 
> This notion that somehow every person knows their own body better than anybody else is silly and is belied by the fact that we sent smart people to school for many years precisely so they can tell us what to do with our own bodies.


that's ridiculous...i never said after his recovery process, i do say rose chooses when he starts or finishes any stage of his recovery . its his body so ultimately he is the one who risks his health , or reaps his reward, he can receive advice , but its always his decision.

also if the issue were as black and white as you were making it Rose along with any other injured player would be fined for malingering the moment the team physician cleared them and they didn't play.

all of which means exactly what i wrote on the 1st page of this thread.

rose is ready when he says so.


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## thebizkit69u

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



Da Grinch said:


> rose is ready when he says so.


More like, Rose IS READY, he just doesn't want to play yet.


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## jnrjr79

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



Da Grinch said:


> that's ridiculous...i never said after his recovery process, i do say rose chooses when he starts or finishes any stage of his recovery . its his body so ultimately he is the one who risks his health , or reaps his reward, he can receive advice , but its always his decision.


It's far, far from ridiculous.

Nobody is disagreeing with the notion that it's Rose's decision to make as to when he comes back. What they are saying is that though it's his call, he might be making the wrong one by continuing to hold out and insisting that he be playing at "110 percent" when he does come back. Aside from the fact that nobody can play at 110%, Rose's own surgeon made it known that Rose cannot return to his full abilities absent playing in NBA games _as part of the recovery process_. So, the timetable/threshold Rose has set for his own return appears impossible if taken at face value.




> also if the issue were as black and white as you were making it Rose along with any other injured player would be fined for malingering the moment the team physician cleared them and they didn't play.


Thanks for putting words in my mouth, but no. I'm simply saying that playing is part of what Rose does to recover, not what he does after he recovers. This is again based on what his own surgeon says.



> rose is ready when he says so.


Obviously, this is false. From a physical standpoint, he is ready now (based upon info available to us, anyway). He may not feel he is mentally ready, but it seems like this concern is something he may just need to get over.


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## seifer0406

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



jnrjr79 said:


> Rose's own surgeon made it known that Rose cannot return to his full abilities absent playing in NBA games _as part of the recovery process_. So, the timetable/threshold Rose has set for his own return appears impossible if taken at face value.


This statement always seemed a bit odd to me. Are you saying that if Rose doesn't play another NBA game the rest of his life his injuries will never heal? It really makes no sense to me. I think what this really means is that if he wants to work off the court rust Rose will have to play which is just common sense in my opinion.

I think people are just complicating things. Rose might be medically cleared to play but that still doesn't account for the actual feelings that he feels when he performs basketball activities. Our medical science isn't advanced to the point where the doctors know 100% of what goes on inside a person's body, a lot of it still depends on the feeling of the actual person. If Rose doesn't feel like his body is ready, then he's not ready, end of story. He's not risking becoming a worse player by taking more time off, the only thing that is at risk is Bull's chances of winning a championship this year. Seeing that there isn't much chance of that happening anyway, I don't see what is the rush of getting Rose on the court.


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## RollWithEm

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



seifer0406 said:


> He's not risking becoming a worse player by taking more time off, the only thing that is at risk is Bull's chances of winning a championship this year. Seeing that there isn't much chance of that happening anyway, I don't see what is the rush of getting Rose on the court.


I've read all the legitimate and reasoned back and forth in this thread, and I have come to believe that this is the salient point, here. Taking more time off is not going to negatively affect his career, and the Bulls aren't getting a chip this year anyway. I'm at peace with Rose's decision.


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## thebizkit69u

Oh I'll play when I can dunk. 
Oh I'll l play when I can dunk off one leg. 
Oh I can dunk but I'm sore after running full workouts, so I'll wait. 
Oh I feel great but only God knows when I'll play. 

WTF.


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## yodurk

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



seifer0406 said:


> Are you saying that if Rose doesn't play another NBA game the rest of his life his injuries will never heal? It really makes no sense to me. I think what this really means is that if he wants to work off the court rust Rose will have to play which is just common sense in my opinion.


No, that is not what he meant, and that is not what Dr. Brian Cole (Rose's surgeon) said either. Rose's knee is already 100% healed and has been for months. The amount of healing is not the problem. It's the strength and flexibility of the muscles and ligaments around the knee, as well as the mental confidence to use the knee like he did prior to the injury. Cole himself has said there is no perfect simulation for building up that strength/flexibility, and confidence, beyond real games. Rose is at the point where from a physical standpoint he is just getting diminishing returns; that is why Dr. Cole cleared him to play, there is no added physical benefit to sitting out more games. Mentally speaking he might still have some room to get better, however the final mental hurdle is getting out there in games too...




> He's not risking becoming a worse player by taking more time off, the only thing that is at risk is Bull's chances of winning a championship this year. Seeing that there isn't much chance of that happening anyway, I don't see what is the rush of getting Rose on the court.


I disagree. I think there IS risk in taking off too much time. If Rose sits out all of this season, that will be more than 18 months since he's played in an NBA game. That's a looonnnggg time. I can't recall there ever being a player be away from NBA basketball for that long and come back "110%" the player they were before, like Rose claims he wants to do.

Besides, what is wrong with coming back to play 15-20 minutes a game for a while? Rose wants to pick up exactly where he left off, that just isn't realistic.


----------



## seifer0406

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



yodurk said:


> No, that is not what he meant, and that is not what Dr. Brian Cole (Rose's surgeon) said either. Rose's knee is already 100% healed and has been for months. The amount of healing is not the problem. It's the strength and flexibility of the muscles and ligaments around the knee, as well as the mental confidence to use the knee like he did prior to the injury. Cole himself has said there is no perfect simulation for building up that strength/flexibility, and confidence, beyond real games. Rose is at the point where from a physical standpoint he is just getting diminishing returns; that is why Dr. Cole cleared him to play, there is no added physical benefit to sitting out more games. Mentally speaking he might still have some room to get better, however the final mental hurdle is getting out there in games too...


Then it doesn't really make much sense in my opinion. Basketball is basketball, this is basically saying there are things that Rose can only do in a *NBA game* that can't be done anywhere else. This isn't boxing where guys wear headgear when sparring, if Rose wants to simulate a NBA game, participate in full contact practice. This statement is at least 90% from a mental standpoint, that Rose needs to play to regain his confidence. I might even say that there is a chance that these doctors are paid to say something like this since the team that is paying them wants their players on the court.



> I disagree. I think there IS risk in taking off too much time. If Rose sits out all of this season, that will be more than 18 months since he's played in an NBA game. That's a looonnnggg time. I can't recall there ever being a player be away from NBA basketball for that long and come back "110%" the player they were before, like Rose claims he wants to do.


I can also recall some players who were pressured back too early and ended up ruining their careers. Penny and Grant Hill were medically cleared multiple times before they hurt themselves again. The doctors don't know everything that the patient is feeling and can't just make the decision for them. 

The bottom line is whether you believe Rose wants to play basketball and if Rose is loyal to his team. With what Rose has already done and said for the Bulls organization I don't know why there are still people questioning his motives. Not to mention the fact that there is very little to gain in terms of playoff performance from having him return this season anyway.


----------



## bullsger

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



yodurk said:


> I disagree. I think there IS risk in taking off too much time. If Rose sits out all of this season, that will be more than 18 months since he's played in an NBA game. That's a looonnnggg time. I can't recall there ever being a player be away from NBA basketball for that long and come back "110%" the player they were before, like Rose claims he wants to do.
> 
> Besides, what is wrong with coming back to play 15-20 minutes a game for a while? Rose wants to pick up exactly where he left off, that just isn't realistic.


15-20 minutes for the rest of the regular season and max. 30 minutes playoffs. Sounds good to me.

And he needs some more rest then give it to him. Even if he sits one or two games in a series.

It is time to play again.

Meanwhile, I have the fear that he does not play anymore this season.

I think he comes back in the next two games or not at all this season.

But I hope that he will play this season.


----------



## Dornado

Anybody else secretly holding out hope (even though I don't care if they shut him down for the year) that he makes a surprise triumphant return against Miami on Wednesday?


----------



## Hoodey

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



Dornado said:


> I like how we're still a lottery team without Rose... despite the fact that we're clearly better than a lottery team without Rose... silly.


I think you're right in your conclusion. Perhaps someone like Bizkit misunderstands things because there was a day when this team would not have made the playoffs. I think back to the 1991-92 season when the Pacers of Reggie Miller, Chuck Person, Rik Smits and Detlef Schrempf were a 7 seed. The league is super watered down now, so "making the playoffs" is pretty easy. That Pacers team would smoke the Hawks.

I'd also ask, does it matter? Even with Rose we're clearly a team who, after Rose, relies on a bunch of players along the lines of Buck Williams, Jerome Kersey and Terry Porter.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



seifer0406 said:


> Then it doesn't really make much sense in my opinion. Basketball is basketball, this is basically saying there are things that Rose can only do in a *NBA game* that can't be done anywhere else. This isn't boxing where guys wear headgear when sparring, if Rose wants to simulate a NBA game, participate in full contact practice. This statement is at least 90% from a mental standpoint, that Rose needs to play to regain his confidence. I might even say that there is a chance that these doctors are paid to say something like this since the team that is paying them wants their players on the court.


Well, he is already playing full contact 5 on 5 in practice. But realistically that just isn't the same. I don't know how else to argue it other then there is no perfect simulation of the intensity that occurs in real NBA games. Opponents won't hold back at inch like they may in practice. You don't have thousands of fans keeping the energy level and adrenaline up. And then there is the mental aspect...knowing it's a real game where the game won't stop at your command like in a practice, or that the outcome actually matters and you can't hold back for a second. Bottom line, there is a difference, I can pretty much guarantee that as fact. I'm just saying let Rose work his way into that environment right away, even in small doses.



> I can also recall some players who were pressured back too early and ended up ruining their careers. Penny and Grant Hill were medically cleared multiple times before they hurt themselves again. The doctors don't know everything that the patient is feeling and can't just make the decision for them.


Apples and oranges. Penny had multiple knee surgeries, one of which was microfracture (which is way more of an NBA death sentence these days than ACL tears). Grant Hill had a messed up ankle. Rehab from bone injuries are a completely different ballgame. 

The biggest risk to Rose is overcompensating and/or not trusting the knee which could lead to ripple effect injuries like back issues for example. However with only a month in the regular season I tend to think that's low risk...if that creeps up, then summer is right around the corner.

I don't get the misconception that Rose is at any further risk to reinjuring the ACL than any normal player. He isn't. (not that you said this, it's just a common line I hear thrown out...and it's wrong)



> The bottom line is whether you believe Rose wants to play basketball and if Rose is loyal to his team. With what Rose has already done and said for the Bulls organization I don't know why there are still people questioning his motives. Not to mention the fact that there is very little to gain in terms of playoff performance from having him return this season anyway.


I am not questioning Rose's motives, only the quality of the advice that he's choosing to follow.


----------



## seifer0406

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



yodurk said:


> Well, he is already playing full contact 5 on 5 in practice. But realistically that just isn't the same. I don't know how else to argue it other then there is no perfect simulation of the intensity that occurs in real NBA games. Opponents won't hold back at inch like they may in practice. You don't have thousands of fans keeping the energy level and adrenaline up. And then there is the mental aspect...knowing it's a real game where the game won't stop at your command like in a practice, or that the outcome actually matters and you can't hold back for a second. Bottom line, there is a difference, I can pretty much guarantee that as fact. I'm just saying let Rose work his way into that environment right away, even in small doses.


How isn't it the same though? This argument that he must play in a game or else he can't recover just seems bogus to me. To even suggest that he might become a worse player (physically) by resting a bit longer is just even worse.

I think you need to step back and realize what you are suggesting. There are 13 regular season games remaining. Let's say that he plays 20 minutes a game, that's 260 minutes. For the sake of this argument let's say that he plays 600 minutes (including playoffs), you're telling me that these 600 minutes played will make a significant difference in Rose's career? It's just a dumb argument to make, period.



> Apples and oranges. Penny had multiple knee surgeries, one of which was microfracture (which is way more of an NBA death sentence these days than ACL tears). Grant Hill had a messed up ankle. Rehab from bone injuries are a completely different ballgame.
> 
> The biggest risk to Rose is overcompensating and/or not trusting the knee which could lead to ripple effect injuries like back issues for example. However with only a month in the regular season I tend to think that's low risk...if that creeps up, then summer is right around the corner.
> 
> I don't get the misconception that Rose is at any further risk to reinjuring the ACL than any normal player. He isn't. (not that you said this, it's just a common line I hear thrown out...and it's wrong)


I'm not comparing their injuries. I'm comparing athletes who rushed back too early. Penny did that numerous times, same with Grant Hill. 



> I am not questioning Rose's motives, only the quality of the advice that he's choosing to follow.


Well it seems like you are considering Rose already told you that his body doesn't feel like it should be playing. Who's to say that he didn't come up with that decision on his own? Again, there is a lack of trust somewhere and I don't see why Bulls fans would not trust their franchise player.


----------



## jnrjr79

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



seifer0406 said:


> I think you need to step back and realize what you are suggesting. There are 13 regular season games remaining. Let's say that he plays 20 minutes a game, that's 260 minutes. For the sake of this argument let's say that he plays 600 minutes (including playoffs), you're telling me that these 600 minutes played will make a significant difference in Rose's career? It's just a dumb argument to make, period.



His surgeon apparently disagrees.


----------



## seifer0406

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



jnrjr79 said:


> His surgeon apparently disagrees.


Well that's why I said originally that it sounds quite odd to me that Rose must play in a NBA game in order for his injuries to heal. If he doesn't play this year he will somehow be a worse player than if he played this year. 13 games and 230 minutes will change his career.

Or I think the Bulls are influencing the doctor's opinion. It's a business afterall and not having Rose this year cost them a lot of money. Even that doesn't make much sense since there are so little games left.

Again, I just don't see the benefit of making him play when he doesn't feel like he's ready.


----------



## jnrjr79

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



seifer0406 said:


> Well that's why I said originally that it sounds quite odd to me that Rose must play in a NBA game in order for his injuries to heal. If he doesn't play this year he will somehow be a worse player than if he played this year. 13 games and 230 minutes will change his career.


It doesn't seem odd that one would need to break up scar tissue, learn to trust the joint, etc. by playing at full speed. It also would not seem odd to me that Derrick would hold back a bit in practice in a way he would not in live games. 

My presumption is if he doesn't go through this process now, it defers that final aspect of his recovery.



> Or I think the Bulls are influencing the doctor's opinion. It's a business afterall and not having Rose this year cost them a lot of money. Even that doesn't make much sense since there are so little games left.


Those quotes were at the outset of the injury, not recent, so it's exceedingly unlikely the Bulls are having any influence on the physician.

How did not having Derrick cost the Bulls a lot of money? TV deals are in place. Every game is sold out. The only money lost would be whatever playoff rounds the Bulls don't advance to that they would have with Rose, and obviously that has not transpired yet.



> Again, I just don't see the benefit of making him play when he doesn't feel like he's ready.


I don't advocate that you force the guy back. But, it's important to know that people all the time in life need to take steps when they don't feel like they are ready. Indeed, much of what occurs in physical therapy can be forcing people to push beyond the boundaries of their own comfort level so that a full recovery can be reached. Derrick's subjective feelings of readiness are certainly relevant, but his instincts could actually be contrary to what he really needs. From the outside, it's hard for us to know, but there are certainly some indication this may be the case.


----------



## seifer0406

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



jnrjr79 said:


> It doesn't seem odd that one would need to break up scar tissue, learn to trust the joint, etc. by playing at full speed. It also would not seem odd to me that Derrick would hold back a bit in practice in a way he would not in live games.
> 
> My presumption is if he doesn't go through this process now, it defers that final aspect of his recovery.


You're talking as if Rose has no control over his own body. If it is necessary for Rose to perform certain motions, there are more than one way for him to perform that motion. The only reason why Rose would be holding back is that his body doesn't feel like it should be going at full speed. In that case I don't see the benefit of forcing it by going into a real game where might be more tempted to do something that he shouldn't.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



jnrjr79 said:


> It doesn't seem odd that one would need to break up scar tissue, learn to trust the joint, etc. by playing at full speed. It also would not seem odd to me that Derrick would hold back a bit in practice in a way he would not in live games.
> 
> My presumption is if he doesn't go through this process now, it defers that final aspect of his recovery.


but you can simulate real action in practice , you cant control others , but you can always control how hard you play and clearly rose feels his comfort level in practice does not yet warrant playing in real games.




> Those quotes were at the outset of the injury, not recent, so it's exceedingly unlikely the Bulls are having any influence on the physician.


except for the very real fact that its the bulls who pay for and choose the physician , not rose so its easy to see where people would assume he may take a team oriented viewpoint.



> How did not having Derrick cost the Bulls a lot of money? TV deals are in place. Every game is sold out. The only money lost would be whatever playoff rounds the Bulls don't advance to that they would have with Rose, and obviously that has not transpired yet.


rose is the team's most marketable player he sells everything for them from pez dispensers to jerseys and while tv deals are in place , their next deal is dictated by their ratings during their current one. 

and i think conservatively every playoff home game is worth a million dollars to the bulls , that was the estimate with the knicks in the last cba, and the bulls have long since been the more profitable team so it stands to reason they have more to gain than that...especially since the value of nba teams have grown more than 30% since then

so yes, rose on the court means more money to say otherwise is either naive , or just an outright lie.



> I don't advocate that you force the guy back. But, it's important to know that people all the time in life need to take steps when they don't feel like they are ready. Indeed, much of what occurs in physical therapy can be forcing people to push beyond the boundaries of their own comfort level so that a full recovery can be reached. Derrick's subjective feelings of readiness are certainly relevant, but his instincts could actually be contrary to what he really needs. From the outside, it's hard for us to know, but there are certainly some indication this may be the case.


these are some huge leaps you are taking, that somehow his mind is doing him harm or that he is mentally soft. considering the image of his mental state is quite the opposite that he is generally considered an extremely, loyal strong willed individual who loves to play nba ball your opinion is that we should instead trust the opinion of a doctor who we nothing about, but we do know who pays him, the average time it takes an nba player to come back from acl surgery is 8-12 months, he had surgery in mid-may he is well within the normal time frame to return , but also its perfectly normal for him not to return yet as his acl tear was an especially bad one, if you remember iman shumpert tore his acl and his mcl the same day but had his surgery that week while rose had his 2 about weeks later because they had to wait for his swelling to go down.

and its actually quite normal for players to have a fear of re-injury through movement of surgically repaired knees , *if* that is what rose is going through pressuring or forcing rose to play only increases the chance of re-injury because if he's not mentally ready to play instinctively he'll overcompensate and that causes injury .

the bulls are a professional sports team , they know this , which is why they know to take this slow, in the post-jordan era they have had a few acl tears and one of them is certainly a cautionary tale on the effects of coming back too early (marcus fizer sr.) its not a situation where its a minor thing and the bull could or would claim malingering.


which means yet again.

Rose will be ready ...when he says so.


----------



## seifer0406

I'm still baffled at this notion that players would suddenly be doing extraordinary things once they step into a NBA game. This isn't water diving where athletes practice without water when they're not competing or boxers spar with headgear. It's the same court, same ball, same caliber of players defending them. Rose isn't going to jump higher or run faster just because there are more people watching him. If this is the Bulls's reasoning for making him play(because he can't rehab outside of a real game), perhaps they should get a better medical team because this current one is just ridiculous.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



seifer0406 said:


> How isn't it the same though? This argument that he must play in a game or else he can't recover just seems bogus to me. To even suggest that he might become a worse player (physically) by resting a bit longer is just even worse.


Fair questions but you are asking the wrong guy. The horse's mouth here is one of the most respected experts in ACL injuries among athletes, Dr. Brian Cole. Question him all you want but I have a feeling he's not pulling it out of nowhere. 

[quoteI think you need to step back and realize what you are suggesting. There are 13 regular season games remaining. Let's say that he plays 20 minutes a game, that's 260 minutes. For the sake of this argument let's say that he plays 600 minutes (including playoffs), you're telling me that these 600 minutes played will make a significant difference in Rose's career? It's just a dumb argument to make, period.[/quote]

Yes, and let me spin that another way. 10 months versus 18 months without playing real NBA basketball. You are basically having him sit out double the amount of time if he sits out the season. Plus...going back to Dr. Cole, it is *part of his rehab*. 




> I'm not comparing their injuries. I'm comparing athletes who rushed back too early. Penny did that numerous times, same with Grant Hill.


What makes you think he is at the point of rushing back too early. Most pro athletes can easily return from ACL tears in 10 months or less. Rose is already past that. I'm just saying Hill and Penny were completely different injuries without much validity for comparison. Microfracture has a far higher rate of follow-on problems, and Hill just had a jacked up bone structure in his ankle that took the Orlando staff forever to figure out how to fix. We are better off comparing to Rubio, Shumpert, CP3, Baron, and other NBA guards who've suffered the same injury in the past decade. 




> Well it seems like you are considering Rose already told you that his body doesn't feel like it should be playing. Who's to say that he didn't come up with that decision on his own? Again, there is a lack of trust somewhere and I don't see why Bulls fans would not trust their franchise player.


Well for starters his brother, Reggie Rose, has made his opinions well known, and really shines a light on some of the "advice" Derrick is getting. Reggie is practically Derrick's father figure, and a guy Derrick is going to listen to. I think Derrick's heart is in the right place, and he just isn't going to go against what his brother says or thinks, hence the crappy advice I was referring to.


----------



## seifer0406

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



yodurk said:


> Fair questions but you are asking the wrong guy. The horse's mouth here is one of the most respected experts in ACL injuries among athletes, Dr. Brian Cole. Question him all you want but I have a feeling he's not pulling it out of nowhere.


One doctor's opinion isn't exactly fact especially when the people paying his salary may have an interest in Rose returning early. Again, unless medical science has progressed to the point where doctors have full understanding of how a patient's body feels some of that decision is left for the patient to decide.



> Yes, and let me spin that another way. 10 months versus 18 months without playing real NBA basketball. You are basically having him sit out double the amount of time if he sits out the season. Plus...going back to Dr. Cole, it is part of his rehab.


Except what exactly is NBA basketball? Explain to me what Rose can do in a NBA game that he cannot simulate outside of it. On one hand you're praising doctors ability to know exactly what goes on in a patient on the other end they are unable to design a proper rehab that doesn't involve playing in a NBA game.



> What makes you think he is at the point of rushing back too early. Most pro athletes can easily return from ACL tears in 10 months or less. Rose is already past that. I'm just saying Hill and Penny were completely different injuries without much validity for comparison. Microfracture has a far higher rate of follow-on problems, and Hill just had a jacked up bone structure in his ankle that took the Orlando staff forever to figure out how to fix. We are better off comparing to Rubio, Shumpert, CP3, Baron, and other NBA guards who've suffered the same injury in the past decade.


I don't know if he's being rushed back too early. I was only giving you a counter example to the point you were making previously. You said that there were some guys who sat out too long and I said there were also guys who came back too soon. If Rose doesn't feel like he's ready and is pressured into playing then that qualifies as coming back too soon in my opinion. Of course that is under the presumption that he isn't lazy and just want to sit home and collect his salary.



> Well for starters his brother, Reggie Rose, has made his opinions well known, and really shines a light on some of the "advice" Derrick is getting. Reggie is practically Derrick's father figure, and a guy Derrick is going to listen to. I think Derrick's heart is in the right place, and he just isn't going to go against what his brother says or thinks, hence the crappy advice I was referring to.


That's a bit of a stretch. It's not like his brother came out and said that Rose should wear yellow shirt with red tie and purple pants and then the next day we see Rose with the exact same attire. The decision is either play or not play. Just because his brother made it public that he believes Rose shouldn't play doesn't mean Rose took his advice over his own.


----------



## jnrjr79

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*

Jesus, enough with the Derrick being rushed back stuff. Lord knows the Bulls would take the long view on this, and prioritize the next decade of profits rather than a couple of months.

From Reinsdorf:



> "I'm not going to let him back until the doctors tell me that it's absolutely safe for him to come back," Reinsdorf said on ESPN 1000's "Talking Baseball" on Saturday. "I made that mistake with Michael Jordan years ago where I think we let him come back too soon. It worked out OK, but it might not have. This time I'm not going to make that mistake. Until the doctors say he's 100 percent and they put their reputations on the line, he's not coming back."


http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/stor...o-bulls-derrick-rose-rushed-back-knee-surgery

If the organization is internally providing some pressure to come back, it is because they are 100% convinced that Derrick is 100% healed, and that whatever is going on with him is strictly between the ears.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*

Yes, and the concept of the Bulls needing to "sell tickets" is ridiculous; something that has been suggested in the media quite a bit. They sell out every game. They make plenty of money without Derrick. And they will make far more money with the 10-year investment into his health. They have no incentive to rush him back. As JNR said, if they are putting any pressure on him to come back, it may be just b/c they believe in following sound medical practices and the fact he is at no added risk of hurting himself out there.

Also here is a novel concept...maybe a little pressure is a good thing? Why do people always make out "pressure" to be some act of evil? If my boss at work never put any pressure on me, I would probably never get half the things done that I actually get done. The key is not to go overboard and apply pressure in the right doses necessary for that person. A little pressure on Derrick to come back may actually be what he needs to get over the mental hurdle. I've not heard a single person make this point surprisingly.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Its starting to look like hes is not coming back for the regular season, honestly he would have done it by now if he wanted to play. I'm starting to believe that Derrick will make his debut in the playoffs, which looks to have been planed out by Rose's group from the get go. The east is so bad that even without Rose the Bulls would be in the playoffs and if they can secure the 7th or 6th seed they will avoid the Heat until a potential ECF match up. In theory it makes sense, but its also doing a disservice to Derrick's teammates who are busting their asses and playing through injuries, for what? So Derrick can come back on a minutes limit in the playoffs and debut his new Adidas on MSG?

Again, this strategy is hard to argue against since the regular season really is pointless. But, doing this makes me question the kids heart.


----------



## taco_daddy

thebizkit69u said:


> Its starting to look like hes is not coming back for the regular season, honestly he would have done it by now if he wanted to play. I'm starting to believe that Derrick will make his debut in the playoffs, which looks to have been planed out by Rose's group from the get go. The east is so bad that even without Rose the Bulls would be in the playoffs and if they can secure the 7th or 6th seed they will avoid the Heat until a potential ECF match up. In theory it makes sense, but its also doing a disservice to Derrick's teammates who are busting their asses and playing through injuries, for what? So Derrick can come back on a minutes limit in the playoffs and debut his new Adidas on MSG?
> 
> Again, this strategy is hard to argue against since the regular season really is pointless. But, doing this makes me question the kids heart.


Where are you getting the information that he's coming back in the playoffs? I'm not doubting you, just wanted to read the article.


----------



## thebizkit69u

taco_daddy said:


> Where are you getting the information that he's coming back in the playoffs? I'm not doubting you, just wanted to read the article.


Its no sure thing that he's going to be play in the playoffs, but not playing at all makes even less sense, seeing as he's been cleared to play a while ago.


----------



## taco_daddy

thebizkit69u said:


> Its no sure thing that he's going to be play in the playoffs, but not playing at all makes even less sense, seeing as he's been cleared to play a while ago.


Gotcha. I had been seeing that theory around on a few messageboards so I thought maybe it was reported somewhere. Thanks for the info. Hopefully we do see Rose back sometime this season.


----------



## BenDengGo

if he doesnt play atleast 10 games (now only 7 games left...), +/- 20minutes, he shouldnt suit up for the playoffs.

i think he has his mind set on not playing this season, including playoffs, at all.


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## yodurk

Part of me wonders if he will return during the playoffs to try and make a bold "I'm back" statement to help capitalize on the Adidas THE RETURN campaign. Granted that doesn't seem like Derrick Rose's personality but I also think he is easily influenced by Team Rose and could be talked into that approach. Not that I think this is likely, I just can't get past the facts that, a) he has been practicing full speed for almost 2 months now, b) he has already taken longer than almost every modern day ACL injury to return, and c) he refuses to publicly acknowledge that he is shutting it down until next season; and Thibodeau says "he is close to returning". 

I'm not so much worried about Derrick getting hurt in the playoffs, it is more about his playing rhythm and team chemistry. Keep in mind his minutes will also be limited at first and we'll need to work around that. That is a pretty big change to bring back your superstar in a playoff situation. But I guess if we play Brooklyn or Atlanta that's not exactly the stiffest playoff competition I've ever seen. And, if we get past the 1st round there is a good chance it's Miami in the 2nd round, and we know that will be a super intense series.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



yodurk said:


> Yes, and the concept of the Bulls needing to "sell tickets" is ridiculous; something that has been suggested in the media quite a bit. They sell out every game. They make plenty of money without Derrick. And they will make far more money with the 10-year investment into his health. They have no incentive to rush him back. As JNR said, if they are putting any pressure on him to come back, it may be just b/c they believe in following sound medical practices and the fact he is at no added risk of hurting himself out there.


there is always more money to be made , the ratings they get now dictates the money they make in their next tv/radio deals, and if you dont think the bulls make more money when their most marketable star is out there from jerseys to programs i dont know what to tell you.



> Also here is a novel concept...maybe a little pressure is a good thing? Why do people always make out "pressure" to be some act of evil? If my boss at work never put any pressure on me, I would probably never get half the things done that I actually get done. The key is not to go overboard and apply pressure in the right doses necessary for that person. A little pressure on Derrick to come back may actually be what he needs to get over the mental hurdle. I've not heard a single person make this point surprisingly.


pressure is rarely seen as a good thing when someone's health is involved, and derrick rose is one of the more accomplished people in his field , lazy is not a word anyone would use to describe him...quite the opposite actually, so perhaps his employers should treat him differently.

also its worth noting people are holding onto the fact that rose has been cleared to play as if people cant be wrong, wasn't marcus fizer cleared to play limited minutes and then tore his acl again?

i have never heard of a player who took too long to come back and got hurt , but the saddest tales in sports are usually about guys who came back before they are ready.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Team Rose is 100% behind when Rose comes back, not Derrick. BJ and Reggie have too much power in deciding what Rose does. A few days ago I heard Waddle and Silvy talk about how "Team Rose" (BJ especially) would love to have a situation similar to Lebron's (minus the decision) when he left Cleveland for Miami. I laughed this theory off at first, but when you take into consideration that ever since he signed his contract extension, Rose has taken every single injury as an excuse to miss a bunch of games. BJ and Reggie have dictated when their "Asset" plays and doesn't play, this is the only reason I can see why Rose has not played yet. 

From Robert Smith to BJ Armstrong, Derrick has never made a decision on his own. I wish this kid would grow a pair and do whats right for his career and his teammates.


----------



## transplant

FWIW, If Rose returns this season, I absolutely don't care whether he's great or good or simply OK. I'd just like him back.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



Da Grinch said:


> there is always more money to be made , the ratings they get now dictates the money they make in their next tv/radio deals, and if you dont think the bulls make more money when their most marketable star is out there from jerseys to programs i dont know what to tell you.


You are only right if looking at this year in a vacuum. Long term, the extra money they would make this year is peanuts compared to the 10-yr investment into Rose's health. I am sure Reinsdorf knows this and is likely part of the reason he's been vocal about not wanting to rush Rose, and why he regrets Jordan coming back early way back when (not a wise risk business wise).

And whatever happens for the remainder of this year is trivial to radio and TV deals; everyone knows Rose is locked up on a long term deal and that is what will drive those deals, not the Bulls' playoff performance this year sans Rose.




> pressure is rarely seen as a good thing when someone's health is involved, and derrick rose is one of the more accomplished people in his field , lazy is not a word anyone would use to describe him...quite the opposite actually, so perhaps his employers should treat him differently.
> 
> also its worth noting people are holding onto the fact that rose has been cleared to play as if people cant be wrong, wasn't marcus fizer cleared to play limited minutes and then tore his acl again?
> 
> i have never heard of a player who took too long to come back and got hurt , but the saddest tales in sports are usually about guys who came back before they are ready.


For the 109th time, Rose's knee is fully healed. He has been practicing full speed for nearly 2 months. People say he looks great. He has taken longer to come back than almost every modern day ACL injury in pro sports. That is fine and all, and nobody is questioning his work ethic. Since his issues are reportedly only "mental" at this stage, I am just saying a little pressure might be what he needs; i.e,. someone to say "just go out there and see what happens", even if you are a little nervous. IMO, the Bulls only want him to come back because they genuinely think he can go out there and play without putting himself at risk. The biggest problem with this approach is that Team Rose is so damn protective, they get offended at the mere suggestion of "rushing" Rose. Boers and Bernstein recnetly said on the radio that the Bulls have backed off these suggestions the past month b/c Team Rose just doesn't want to hear it. Which is wise from a PR standpoint, however it doesn't mean Team Rose is fully in the right either. They are countering conventional medical advice.


----------



## Bulls96

I am not sure who else is thinking the same way, but IMO Rose is done as a leader, 
it is became so clear by now. 

We are back to square one.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Bulls96 said:


> I am not sure who else is thinking the same way, but IMO Rose is done as a leader,
> it is became so clear by now.
> 
> We are back to square one.


No, hes still the leader but I think its fair to say that he loses the title of "Unquestioned leader".


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Its time for Derrick to play.*



yodurk said:


> You are only right if looking at this year in a vacuum. Long term, the extra money they would make this year is peanuts compared to the 10-yr investment into Rose's health. I am sure Reinsdorf knows this and is likely part of the reason he's been vocal about not wanting to rush Rose, and why he regrets Jordan coming back early way back when (not a wise risk business wise).


JR gave in to jordan because falk and jordan stated they wouldn't resign when his deal was up, krause made the monumental mistake of claiming jordan to be their property and he was going to do what they said, in reality they had no choice because jordan was already playing unsanctioned games on the UNC campus and letting him play bulls games was the only way they could limit him.

that was no Reinsdorf caring more for jordan than jordan( or rose in this case) cared for himself situation no matter how much they try to spin it , all JR's statements from here on out should be considered damage control and nothing else.

jordan was someone who was mentally ready to come back at that point, and rose currently is not....and in both cases the player will win out and play when they are ready.



> And whatever happens for the remainder of this year is trivial to radio and TV deals; everyone knows Rose is locked up on a long term deal and that is what will drive those deals, not the Bulls' playoff performance this year sans Rose.


actually no , not at all, tv/radio stations aren't going to give the bulls a pass due to injury , the ratings directly affect their revenue now, if anything rose staying out gives them reason to offer less in the future due to uncertainty.






> For the 109th time, Rose's knee is fully healed. He has been practicing full speed for nearly 2 months. People say he looks great. He has taken longer to come back than almost every modern day ACL injury in pro sports. That is fine and all, and nobody is questioning his work ethic. Since his issues are reportedly only "mental" at this stage, I am just saying a little pressure might be what he needs; i.e,. someone to say "just go out there and see what happens", even if you are a little nervous. IMO, the Bulls only want him to come back because they genuinely think he can go out there and play without putting himself at risk. The biggest problem with this approach is that Team Rose is so damn protective, they get offended at the mere suggestion of "rushing" Rose. Boers and Bernstein recnetly said on the radio that the Bulls have backed off these suggestions the past month b/c Team Rose just doesn't want to hear it. Which is wise from a PR standpoint, however it doesn't mean Team Rose is fully in the right either. They are countering conventional medical advice.


was marcus fizer's knee healed ?, when he got cleared avg. 16 minutes and then in 3 months tore it again?

didn't conventional medical advice say he was ready?

do you blame the bulls? and their medical staff?

and actually the recovery time for an acl tear is 8-12 months ,so anything before mid-may is pretty much normal, some players come back early , some don't.

the simple truth is the mental part of getting over a debilitating injury such as an acl tear can take anywhere from nothing to 4 years and rose coming back early not only risks his knee ,other parts of his body due to overcompensation, his career and his well being and future earning potential.

rose pays team rose to look out for him and they are doing it , they are not bulls employees and don't pretend to be. as far as i am concerned the bulls brought this on themselves by releasing that rose was cleared by them to play in games, any acrimony and distrust being shown is their own doing, they have been through enough of these over the last 28-29 years and should have known better.


----------



## Bulls96

thebizkit69u said:


> No, hes still the leader but I think its fair to say that he loses the title of "Unquestioned leader".



Agree. 

We were cursed again , and I am not surprised...just think about how many players, managers, coaches were upset with Bulls organization.


----------



## Da Grinch

thebizkit69u said:


> No, hes still the leader but I think its fair to say that he loses the title of "Unquestioned leader".


unquestioned among whom?


he is certainly still the unquestioned leader of the team.



players are generally going to side with players in any dispute when health or management are involved, they all have their own teams of agents, managers, drivers valets etc., and its not like a player has emerged that could possibly challenge him.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Da Grinch said:


> unquestioned among whom?
> 
> 
> he is certainly still the unquestioned leader of the team.
> 
> 
> 
> players are generally going to side with players in any dispute when health or management are involved, they all have their own teams of agents, managers, drivers valets etc., and its not like a player has emerged that could possibly challenge him.


Its a different story when said player is "healthy". If you think the guys on this team are 100% fine with playing their asses off, while at the same time a healthy Rose refuses to play, well then you need to think twice.


----------



## thebizkit69u

> Yes, and the concept of the Bulls needing to "sell tickets" is ridiculous; something that has been suggested in the media quite a bit. They sell out every game.


They haven't sold out their playoff tickets, so it would be to their benefit that they still float the possibility of a Rose return. In fact if you go on Ticketmaster you can easily find great seats for their first round series. These tickets are in the 700 dollar range, and if you think someone is going to shell that kind of money to see a Rose less Bulls team, well I will have to disagree with you.Funny how the closer we are getting to playoffs, the more information you are getting out of Thibs and Rose that they just might NOT shut down Rose.


----------



## Bulls96

thebizkit69u said:


> They haven't sold out their playoff tickets, so it would be to their benefit that they still float the possibility of a Rose return. In fact if you go on Ticketmaster you can easily find great seats for their first round series. These tickets are in the 700 dollar range, and if you think someone is going to shell that kind of money to see a Rose less Bulls team, well I will have to disagree with you.Funny how the closer we are getting to playoffs, the more information you are getting out of Thibs and Rose that they just might NOT shut down Rose.


Yes, it is all about money … and nothing wrong with that. 

Bull’s organization is constantly manipulating our expectation. At this point someone should be extremely stupid to trust JR or Pax. 

IMO, the chances that Bulls win a championship anytime soon are just around 3%.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Derrick has shown no interest in coming back, yet the Bulls organization still refuses to say hes out for the season. This whole situation if a joke, only the Bulls are capable of botching this sort of situation.


----------



## Dornado

Are they really botching it? Seems like the ball is in Rose's court... I'm personally finding it hard to get that upset about any of it, particularly at the Bulls... I kind of figure he'd be out all of this year anyway. It is shitty, but we knew not having Derrick would be shitty. I guess I could try to take it personally that they hinted he might come back early... but I attribute that to Derrick at this point. The Bulls can't force him back on the floor... they've told everyone he's medically cleared, that's about as much pressure as they can reasonably apply.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Dornado said:


> Are they really botching it? Seems like the ball is in Rose's court... I'm personally finding it hard to get that upset about any of it, particularly at the Bulls... I kind of figure he'd be out all of this year anyway. It is shitty, but we knew not having Derrick would be shitty. I guess I could try to take it personally that they hinted he might come back early... but I attribute that to Derrick at this point. The Bulls can't force him back on the floor... they've told everyone he's medically cleared, that's about as much pressure as they can reasonably apply.


There was no unified front in this situation; you had Jerry Reinsdorf saying that he wants Rose to take as long as he wants, yet you have Garpax going on record and saying that they fully expected Rose to play this season. You have the Bulls leaking out that hes been cleared to play since late February, yet show no backbone in getting their guy on the court. Rose has REFUSED to play for this team, yet the Bulls are allowing him to basically humiliate his teammates in practice. By all accounts hes destroying his teammates during practice! The Bulls are allowing Reggie and BJ to dictate Rose's future, this is not in the best interest of the Bulls.


----------



## Dornado

What would you do if you were the Bulls? Tell him to play or else? Or else what?


----------



## transplant

thebizkit69u said:


> only the Bulls are capable of botching this sort of situation.


What? The only thing the Bulls could do is fine Rose for not playing. While you may want them to do this to show their "backbone," it would do the organization immeasurable harm. Top free agents would put the Bulls on their pay-no-mind list for a generation. While some fans like you would applaud, I think most would recoil from the unnecessary harshness and shortsightedness of such a move.

No. Thank. You.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Dornado said:


> What would you do if you were the Bulls? Tell him to play or else? Or else what?


Or else say you are taking the season off! Its that simple! I understand its in Jerry Reinsdorf's best interest to keep the possibility of Rose's return alive as long as possible, but its laughable that its still like this, at this POINT!


----------



## thebizkit69u

transplant said:


> What? The only thing the Bulls could do is fine Rose for not playing. While you may want them to do this to show their "backbone," it would do the organization immeasurable harm. Top free agents would put the Bulls on their pay-no-mind list for a generation. While some fans like you would applaud, I think most would recoil from the unnecessary harshness and shortsightedness of such a move.
> 
> No. Thank. You.


I never said fine him.

Shut him down then.


----------



## BenDengGo

"**** d-rose"!!!
he does not deserve to play in the playoffs...

if he comes back, nate rob will probably ride the pine, while he actually faught all season for the bulls.


i'm dissappointed and pissed at rose, there would have been no problem if he would have been transparent about the injury.
if he had told everyone, he's not gonna play regardless, than everyone would have been informed.

instead he's been cleared to play for almost two month now and says stupid stuff like "only good knows, when i'll be back..."
why drag god into this?

something is rotten!


----------



## yodurk

IMO, once Derrick was medically cleared the Bulls front office tried to convince Derrick to follow the doctors' advice, but Team Rose was having none of it and interpreted it as "pressure". Since then it would seem the Bulls backed off significantly and decided it just isn't worth the PR hit of trying to make Rose do anything. Only a little to gain and so much more to lose. 

This is basically what I've pieced together from the reports over the past few months, and Boers/Bernstein (can't remember which one) claim their sources say this went down very similar to this. 

It's a catch 22 situation; as long as Rose's camp doesn't see eye to eye with the doctors, the Bulls front office literally cannot come out a winner here. They are either "pressuring" Derrick too much which would turn into a PR hit most likely, or they are not doing anything to get their guy back on the floor, which in and of itself sucks as we all know.

As someone else said, the ball is in Derrick's court; he is the only one who can end the drama and that is by getting back on the court.


----------



## jnrjr79

Dornado said:


> What would you do if you were the Bulls? Tell him to play or else? Or else what?


This is exactly the right point. There is nothing they can do but defer to him and show as much solidarity as possible, especially given the apparent sensitivity of his "camp" to any pressure to come back.


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> I never said fine him.
> 
> Shut him down then.



Any criticism of the organization for mishandling Rose is pretty absurd. If the organization went out of its way to shut him down without his OK, it would be a shitshow. There's nothing you can do but let Derrick make his own decision.


----------



## Da Grinch

taking a long view of the situation , the bulls clearly flubbed when they released rose was medically cleared to play.

but once you let the genie out the bottle its hard to get it back in.

if rose interpreted it as pressure it probably speaks to a disconnect between front office and player and as hard as i usually am on bulls management i have a hard time believing they had any real malice in their hearts , more so building anticipation for an imminent return looking to boost ratings to line their pockets.

it was always in the bulls best interest to come in as the 6th seed anyway and avoid the heat as long as possible

in truth when a team negotiates extensions with their star player generally the direction of the team is discussed and putting 2 and 2 together with reggie rose's outburst and the bulls continued lack of impactful action this may be a precursor to a larger battle which hopefully doesn't happen, and since rose is loathe to publicly disparage his teammates for not being good enough this may be the way he makes his point to management.


----------



## Basel

I think Kobe might be back before D-Rose.


----------



## yodurk

Da Grinch said:


> taking a long view of the situation , the bulls clearly flubbed when they released rose was medically cleared to play.
> 
> but once you let the genie out the bottle its hard to get it back in.


This has to be the most overrated piece of info that came out of the Rose saga to date. Tons of fans assumed that Rose was most likely medically cleared back when reports were out stating he was practicing full speed with no restrictions. This was at least a week, maybe several weeks, before the report came out. On top of that, Rose's status was pretty transparent throughout the whole process of his rehab so I don't see why it's some big secret that he is medically cleared. It was good news to hear.

This may be mincing words, but the Rose camp response after this news was released was, they were "unhappy with the characterization of the report". I took that to mean they were pissed at the writer for suggesting Rose is ready to return to game action, not necessarily at the news that Rose is medically cleared. Maybe it was both, who am I to say, but that is sure what it sounded like.


----------



## thebizkit69u

jnrjr79 said:


> Any criticism of the organization for mishandling Rose is pretty absurd. If the organization went out of its way to shut him down without his OK, it would be a shitshow. There's nothing you can do but let Derrick make his own decision.


Yeah, cause having Reggie and BJ dictate every damn move Derrick makes is not a shitshow.


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> Yeah, cause having Reggie and BJ dictate every damn move Derrick makes is not a shitshow.



What would you do differently? Your only suggestion so far - "shut him down" - would be utterly destructive. 

You're venting just to vent.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Basel said:


> I think Kobe might be back before D-Rose.







Yet hes not ready.







*AFTER BLOWING HIS DAMN Achilles tendon!!!*

What a ****ing joke.


----------



## thebizkit69u

jnrjr79 said:


> What would you do differently? Your only suggestion so far - "shut him down" - would be utterly destructive.
> 
> You're venting just to vent.


Destructive? 

And having him NOT play when hes clearly ready to play is not destructive to the teams chemistry? 

Get real, these guys may not say stuff publicly, and if you think this situation has not caused a rift between the organization and Team Derrick and even the players on this team with their Captain. You need to take a second look.


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> Destructive?
> 
> And having him NOT play when hes clearly ready to play is not destructive to the teams chemistry?
> 
> Get real, these guys may not say stuff publicly, and if you think this situation has not caused a rift between the organization and Team Derrick and even the players on this team with their Captain. You need to take a second look.



My whole point is the team shutting him down would worsen the rift. How can you not see that?


----------



## thebizkit69u

jnrjr79 said:


> My whole point is the team shutting him down would worsen the rift. How can you not see that?


How would it worsen? All the Bulls have to say is, "We believe you when you say that your are not 100% ready to play. So we think its in both of our interests to mutually agree that you should sit out the season." Its what Team Rose wants and it ends the constant questions of when hes coming back.


----------



## Da Grinch

thebizkit69u said:


> Destructive?
> 
> And having him NOT play when hes clearly ready to play is not destructive to the teams chemistry?
> 
> Get real, these guys may not say stuff publicly, and if you think this situation has not caused a rift between the organization and Team Derrick and even the players on this team with their Captain. You need to take a second look.


i tend to agree with jnrjr on this one , 

if there is a rift because the bulls are pressuring rose to play , then ordering him not to play is just as bad if not worse...if you dont think so you should investigate what happened the last time the bulls tried to shut their star guard down back in 1986.

if its not already personal, it would get there ...very quickly.

as far as the rest of the team goes , i dont think you give them enough credit, they have a job to do, and you may not want to hear it but if anything there are some guys on the roster are benefiting from rose's absence, as much as we can talk about chemistry and jib , when its contract negotiating time all they do is talk stats.


----------



## yodurk

My delusional hope here is that Derrick is trolling the rest of the league and is going to make a sneak attack on Indiana come playoff time. Or better yet, beat Indiana and New York without Rose and do the sneak attack on Miami. 

My non-evidence from Joakim Noah's Twitter (posted today: https://twitter.com/JoakimNoah): "A lot of basketball left chi. Watch"


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> How would it worsen? All the Bulls have to say is, "We believe you when you say that your are not 100% ready to play. So we think its in both of our interests to mutually agree that you should sit out the season." Its what Team Rose wants and it ends the constant questions of when hes coming back.


It is absolutely not what Team Rose wants, which is why it would worsen the situation.


----------



## thebizkit69u

jnrjr79 said:


> It is absolutely not what Team Rose wants, which is why it would worsen the situation.


Team Rose wants Rose to sit out. Having the Bulls declare that Rose is done for the season, takes pressure off team Rose.


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> Team Rose wants Rose to sit out. Having the Bulls declare that Rose is done for the season, takes pressure off team Rose.



No. If the Bulls would've announced a month or two ago that they were shutting Rose down for the season, many, many people would've called Rose's character into question (understandably). If the guy wasn't ready on February 15, for example, that would be no reason to believe he couldn't be ready on March 15 or April 15, given what we know about ACL recoveries.

The _only_ approach that saves face for Rose is to have the team and the player both saying that Derrick is working really hard and will be back as soon as he is physically ready. If you shut him down, you destroy that narrative.

It's incredibly naive to think that if Derrick's camp wanted an announcement that he was shut down for the season from the organization that he wouldn't have gotten it. He certainly would have, and very easily so.


----------



## thebizkit69u

jnrjr79 said:


> No. If the Bulls would've announced a month or two ago that they were shutting Rose down for the season, many, many people would've called Rose's character into question (understandably). If the guy wasn't ready on February 15, for example, that would be no reason to believe he couldn't be ready on March 15 or April 15, given what we know about ACL recoveries.
> 
> The _only_ approach that saves face for Rose is to have the team and the player both saying that Derrick is working really hard and will be back as soon as he is physically ready. If you shut him down, you destroy that narrative.
> 
> It's incredibly naive to think that if Derrick's camp wanted an announcement that he was shut down for the season from the organization that he wouldn't have gotten it. He certainly would have, and very easily so.


People are already calling his character into question, BECAUSE hes healthy enough to play. If they would have shut him down a long time ago, people would have just assumed hes not ready. Nobody is buying the idea that hes not physically ready, the perfect narrative has been long gone and is no longer a possibility.


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> People are already calling his character into question, BECAUSE hes healthy enough to play. If they would have shut him down a long time ago, people would have just assumed hes not ready. Nobody is buying the idea that hes not physically ready, the perfect narrative has been long gone and is no longer a possibility.



Ugh, this is so blatantly false. I fail to see why we continue running around in circles.

If Derrick misses the entire season + playoffs, that will be nearly a year of total time out. No rational person would believe, if he had been shut down, that he was not physically ready to return at some point while games were still being played. Nobody.

Your position simply makes no sense, and it only gets worse as we continue to discuss it. If the team announced at some point in February or whatever that it was shutting Derrick down, it would harm him, not help him. If he actually wanted that, _he would have gotten it_. The mere fact the announcement was not made proves he did not want the team to announced a shut-down.

Sheesh.


----------



## yodurk

http://www.isderrickrosebackyet.com/

:laugh:

I'm still a huge Rose fan, nothing that's happened has changed that, but that doesn't make the guy immune to poking fun or even outright criticism of his approach to this. And I do wonder if Boozer and Gibson's comments the other day allude to some impatience growing within the team. They don't seem to have a clue when he plans to return even though they see him dominating in practice.


----------



## taco_daddy

yodurk said:


> http://www.isderrickrosebackyet.com/
> 
> :laugh:
> 
> I'm still a huge Rose fan, nothing that's happened has changed that, but that doesn't make the guy immune to poking fun or even outright criticism of his approach to this. And I do wonder if Boozer and Gibson's comments the other day allude to some impatience growing within the team. They don't seem to have a clue when he plans to return even though they see him dominating in practice.


I missed that report. What did Boozer/Gibson say?


----------



## King Joseus

taco_daddy said:


> I missed that report. What did Boozer/Gibson say?





> Gibson said there are still times he looks around the floor and wonders about what could be if Rose were there.
> 
> "Without a doubt," Gibson said. "Without a doubt. Because we really beat a lot of good teams this year and a couple of games we blew them out. With Derrick, he just gives us that extra edge. He's a closer, really. He's our closer. For him to be in late, I remember a lot of games late we had to finish the game, he had to just dominate, finish the game for us.
> 
> "Just to have that kind of aspect and have a guard that can create his own shot and help others get their own shot, that would just put us over the hump even more."





> "We can't worry about all that," Bulls forward Carlos Boozer said of Rose's status. "We just got to worry about what's in front of us. He's doing his job on what he has to do. We're doing our job on what we have to do and if he comes back ... whew, it would be awesome. If he doesn't then we got to go with what we got."
> 
> Boozer still believes there's a chance Rose will play and that's why he's still holding on to the possibility of a return.
> 
> "Absolutely," Boozer said. "I don't know why we wouldn't. Absolutely. Because he makes that big of a difference. I'll put it quite frankly, he makes that big of a difference."


Don't have a link due to China silliness, oh well..


----------



## taco_daddy

Thanks KJ, you're still the man. Also, I must credit Yodurk with an assist.

Thanks!


----------



## Da Grinch

its funny how people try to construe any statement to fit their belief system, boozer was clearly backing rose , being supportive as well he should be ....and gibson acknowledging rose's role within the team.

i didn't see any impatience there and even if there were some nugget for a poster to squint his/her eyes and create fiction most quotes are useless without context, the questions that brought out those responses weren't posted.


----------



## BenDengGo

i gotta be honest, some of those "_______ before D. Rose comes back" meme jokes are pretty funny


----------



## thebizkit69u

*Fun Fact of the Day!*

Iman Shumpert tore his ACL minutes after Derrick Rose tore his.

Iman Shumpert has played 996 minutes this season, not including the 22 he played today in the playoffs.
Derrick Rose has played 0 minutes this season!

The More you Know!


----------



## Porn Player

*Re: Fun Fact of the Day!*

It will be interesting to track this for future reference. Does Shumpert endure an injury blighted career because he came back so early? Does Rose lose on out a chance at a Championship for no good reason other than what's going on in his head?


----------



## Ben

*Re: Fun Fact of the Day!*

Shumpert himself even admitted that he isn't a shadow of his former self and lacks explosiveness and rhythm. Why would Rose come back earlier than he feels proper when his whole game needs the explosiveness?


----------



## yodurk

*Re: Fun Fact of the Day!*



Ben said:


> Shumpert himself even admitted that he isn't a shadow of his former self and lacks explosiveness and rhythm. Why would Rose come back earlier than he feels proper when his whole game needs the explosiveness?


One can argue that Shumpert and Rubio may have both rushed back a little, but I do not think it will have negative long-term effects. In Rubio's case he had some aches and pains, and didn't play too well the first 1-2 months, but just like Dr. Cole says you saw the exponential improvement over time. By season's end Rubio was back to his old self and now he can enter next season at a near guaranteed 100%. While Shumpert is not himself yet, he is much better positioned to start next season at or near 100% of his old self thanks to on-court rehab of returning. 

Because Rose chose to skip the on-court rehab, I would not be surprised if he returns at 75-80% of his MVP self when next season starts. Who knows how long it will take before he looks like the old Rose. Maybe it will never happen. As I've said before I don't like the idea of him going 18 months since he played his last NBA game. Skills and muscle groups used in game situations can degrade and there is no guarantee they return 100% with that much time away. The thing Derrick has going for him is that he's young at least. Would love nothing more than for him to look like MVP Rose for next season's opener, though.


----------



## thebizkit69u

*Re: Fun Fact of the Day!*



Ben said:


> Shumpert himself even admitted that he isn't a shadow of his former self and lacks explosiveness and rhythm. Why would Rose come back earlier than he feels proper when his whole game needs the explosiveness?


Because its a part of the recovery process. It blows my mind that so many dumb bulls fans fail to acknowledge the fact that Rose is NOT following what the doctors want him to do. Playing, regardless of the idea of missing a step, is a MUST DO!


----------



## thebizkit69u

A good Article on the whole Derrick Rose fiasco.
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/derrick-rose-owes-chicago-bulls-minutes-or-answers-after-brooklyn-nets-rout-game-1-playoffs-042013



> Please, Derrick Rose. Come onto that floor in Game 2 and show us what you’ve got. Or come to that microphone and tell us, with clarity and honesty, when you’ll have what you once did and why there is a six-week gulf between what your doctors believe and what you believe.
> 
> Give us minutes or give us answers.


Either play, or call "The Return" off.


----------



## Ben

*Re: Fun Fact of the Day!*

It also blows my mind that random guys sit on a message board and act like they know Rose's pain threshold and how he's definitely ready to play. At the end of the day it's down to the player, if he's not confident coming back, he's only going to reinjure himself.


----------



## R-Star

Doctors say he's 100% ready and Derrick says he wants to be 110% ready....

These aren't regular season throw away games, its the playoffs. And a very winnable series if Rose played. 

So there's two options. 

A) He's a coward and afraid to go back out and play

or more likely 

B) He's a lazy bitch who's just happy to make a huge paycheck and couldn't care less about the team.

Either option adds up to the same thing. Derrick Rose is a bitch. You think Kobe is sitting in a situation like that? Hell, even Lebron? Not a ****ing chance.


----------



## roux

*Re: Fun Fact of the Day!*

My question is how does anyone know that it isn't the Bulls management making Rose sit, and not Rose himself?


----------



## thebizkit69u

*Re: Fun Fact of the Day!*



Ben said:


> It also blows my mind that random guys sit on a message board and act like they know Rose's pain threshold and how he's definitely ready to play. At the end of the day it's down to the player, if he's not confident coming back, he's only going to reinjure himself.


If he's still experiencing pain that's a career ending concern. The fact that he was cleared to play over a month ago, tells me he's not experiencing pain.

He's ready to play, that's a fact and not some random opinion.


----------



## Luke

Oh hey what's up man


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## R-Star

Just enjoying the playoffs, bro.


----------



## Luke

Good to have ya back


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Dornado

Merged.

R-Star... good to see you back. Tone it down.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Fun Fact of the Day!*



roux2dope said:


> My question is how does anyone know that it isn't the Bulls management making Rose sit, and not Rose himself?


Why would they?


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Fun Fact of the Day!*



thebizkit69u said:


> If he's still experiencing pain that's a career ending concern. The fact that he was cleared to play over a month ago, tells me he's not experiencing pain.
> 
> He's ready to play, that's a fact and not some random opinion.


I'm not sure that being cleared to play means you aren't feeling pain... those are different things.

Reading this thread I can't help but picture you listening to Boers and Bernstein and getting all worked up (which is why they love this topic... angry listeners = ratings, one of their specialties... just like when they go after MJ). 

I guess I just don't get how anyone could have not written this entire season off a year ago. We knew this was going to be a wasted season and that there was a chance Rose didn't come back.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: Fun Fact of the Day!*



R-Star said:


> Why would they?


I guess in theory if they wanted to tank (like when they pressured a young MJ to sit out an entire season... MJ wasn't having it) but that wouldn't make a lot of sense given that the Bulls were going to be playoff bound and pretty much everyone (except for Bizkit) knew it. And I think the fact that the Bulls organization went public with the fact that Rose was medically cleared pretty much nixes this theory.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Fun Fact of the Day!*



Dornado said:


> I'm not sure that being cleared to play means you aren't feeling pain... those are different things.
> 
> Reading this thread I can't help but picture you listening to Boers and Bernstein and getting all worked up (which is why they love this topic... angry listeners = ratings, one of their specialties... just like when they go after MJ).
> 
> I guess I just don't get how anyone could have not written this entire season off a year ago. We knew this was going to be a wasted season and that there was a chance Rose didn't come back.


You guys are in the playoffs though, and most of us didn't really expect that. Not to mention the team played extremely admirably in Derricks absence. They could make some real noise in the playoffs, but only if Rose came back.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Fun Fact of the Day!*



Dornado said:


> I guess in theory if they wanted to tank (like when they pressured a young MJ to sit out an entire season... MJ wasn't having it) but that wouldn't make a lot of sense given that the Bulls were going to be playoff bound and pretty much everyone (except for Bizkit) knew it. And I think the fact that the Bulls organization went public with the fact that Rose was medically cleared pretty much nixes this theory.


Yep. There's 0 sense in sitting him now. Especially since now that they're in the playoffs, losing games gains them nothing draft pick wise.


----------



## thebizkit69u

*Re: Fun Fact of the Day!*



Dornado said:


> I'm not sure that being cleared to play means you aren't feeling pain... those are different things.
> 
> Reading this thread I can't help but picture you listening to Boers and Bernstein and getting all worked up (which is why they love this topic... angry listeners = ratings, one of their specialties... just like when they go after MJ).
> 
> I guess I just don't get how anyone could have not written this entire season off a year ago. We knew this was going to be a wasted season and that there was a chance Rose didn't come back.


I think pain and discomfort are two entirely different things. I feel like yeah maybe Rose is still experiencing some discomfort, but I'm pretty sure that's normal during the recovery process. Pain is more serious and if that's what he's experiencing, I highly doubt hr would have been cleared to play.


----------



## Da Grinch

perhaps there was more to reggie rose's comments than were previously believed.

http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/stor...rose-brother-says-no-trades-big-factor-return



> CHICAGO -- Derrick Rose's brother and manager, Reggie Rose, said Thursday* that the franchise hasn't put enough quality players around the Chicago Bulls star to win a championship and that could be a "big factor" in whether he returns this season from a knee injury.*
> 
> Reggie Rose said he was speaking for himself and not his brother.
> 
> "What have you pieced together? Have you made any moves? Have you made any trades to get better? You know all roads to the championship lead through Miami," Reggie Rose told ESPNChicago.com. "What pieces have you put together for the physical playoffs?





> "Joakim Noah is a great player. Luol Deng is a great player. But you need more than that. You have to put together pieces to your main piece. The players can only do so much. It's up to the organization to make them better."
> 
> The Bulls, who stood pat at Thursday's trade deadline, issued a statement from Derrick Rose on Thursday evening.
> 
> "I have always felt that the Bulls organization's goals have been the same as mine and that is to bring another championship to this city," Derrick Rose said in the statement.
> 
> Reggie Rose, meanwhile, expressed his frustration with the team's lack of movement.
> 
> "It's frustrating to see my brother play his heart and soul out for the team and them not put anything around him," Reggie Rose said.





> Initially believed to return sometime after last weekend's All-Star break, Rose said last week he wouldn't "mind missing this year" if he didn't feel ready to return and insisted that the decision is his to make.
> 
> Reggie Rose, who attended Thursday's game at the United Center, said the Bulls have known all along Rose could sit out this season, but the organization hasn't mentioned it because it would affect ticket sales.
> 
> "Everyone is expecting Derrick to come back," Reggie Rose said. "If Derrick comes back, they're going to sell more tickets. Is the reason for Derrick to come back to win a championship or make money? Right now, I don't believe a championship. Everything in the NBA is financial."



simply in hindsight it looks like maybe the bulls knew rose had threatened not to come back and announced he was cleared as a way to put pressure on him, 

that there may be a rift in the relationship between rose and the team, 

while i have echoed many of the same sentiments as far as the bulls not making moves, it does seem extreme i would have to assume the bulls must have already promised rose action and provided none, because i strongly doubt rose want out of chicago.


----------



## R-Star

Da Grinch said:


> perhaps there was more to reggie rose's comments than were previously believed.
> 
> http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/stor...rose-brother-says-no-trades-big-factor-return
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *simply in hindsight it looks like maybe the bulls knew rose had threatened not to come back and announced he was cleared as a way to put pressure on him, *
> 
> that there may be a rift in the relationship between rose and the team,
> 
> while i have echoed many of the same sentiments as far as the bulls not making moves, it does seem extreme i would have to assume the bulls must have already promised rose action and provided none, because i strongly doubt rose want out of chicago.


So they paid doctors off to lie?

Come on man.


----------



## BenDengGo

if this gets out, that derrick didnt play because he thaught the team was/is weak than he might as well pack his bags.

i dont know what the issue is, the dude doesnt even talk. i'd like to slap him if he says "only god can tell" again.

clearly something is rotten here. 
i mean he says wants to play if he's 110%, thats laughable, no player ever is in that condition. 
yesterday noah was 65% tops and you could tell he wanted to play real bad.

i followed pro sport a lot and i happen to witness a lot of acl rips especially in soccer, and those player hardly take more than 7 months. how did peterson make it? nfl is tougher on the knees than bball.

either something went wrong with the rehab or i dont know.
how can you willingly miss the playoffs?


----------



## Diable

Whatever the reason is, they have handled it incredibly poorly. There's no way you should tell everyone that you could play, but you won't. Your reasons just don't matter when you let that be the perception.


----------



## Da Grinch

R-Star said:


> So they paid doctors off to lie?
> 
> Come on man.


reading is fundamental.

i never wrote anything about doctors lying .

the bulls announced rose was cleared to play , the bulls .

they never had to say anything at all, they all by themselves put out the news.

in fact if memory serves me isn't there a law against doctors publicly discussing their patients without consent.


----------



## R-Star

Da Grinch said:


> reading is fundamental.
> 
> i never wrote anything about doctors lying .
> 
> the bulls announced rose was cleared to play , the bulls .
> 
> they never had to say anything at all, they all by themselves put out the news.
> 
> in fact if memory serves me isn't there a law against doctors publicly discussing their patients without consent.


So you think it would be better if the Bulls kept it secret that Derrick is cleared to play and just milking it now?


----------



## Da Grinch

R-Star said:


> So you think it would be better if the Bulls kept it secret that Derrick is cleared to play and just milking it now?


no i think it would have been smart to clear rose when you are sure his going to play.

not clear him 3 weeks after he muses about missing the whole season and 2 weeks after his brother/manager goes off on a tirade espousing the same thing.

in truth the bulls have been milking it the entire time and its just doing more harm than good.

he's a player on their team is it really believable that they had no idea he wasn't going to play when they cleared him?

i think they knew and cleared him anyway to pressure him to come back and it didn't get him back any earlier, but at the same time they drummed up interest in the team ,i think they viewed it as a win/win but there is always money to be made by keeping the bulls in the headlines and the bulls are always about making money , its not a secret .


----------



## thebizkit69u

I like how Thibs goes to the excuse "Well the doctors said its an 8-12 month recovery process, soooooo..He still could come back". So what the hell happens if that 12 month mark hits and Derrick still refuses to play, DESPITE being cleared a long time ago?


----------



## R-Star

Da Grinch said:


> no i think it would have been smart to clear rose when you are sure his going to play.
> 
> not clear him 3 weeks after he muses about missing the whole season and 2 weeks after his brother/manager goes off on a tirade espousing the same thing.
> 
> in truth the bulls have been milking it the entire time and its just doing more harm than good.
> 
> he's a player on their team is it really believable that they had no idea he wasn't going to play when they cleared him?
> 
> i think they knew and cleared him anyway to pressure him to come back and it didn't get him back any earlier, but at the same time they drummed up interest in the team ,i think they viewed it as a win/win but there is always money to be made by keeping the bulls in the headlines and the bulls are always about making money , its not a secret .


So Derrick is cleared to play, doctors say he's 100% recovered.......but the Bulls are in the wrong because Derrick doesn't have to play unless he feels like it?

If anything they should be going after him for breach of contract.


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> I like how Thibs goes to the excuse "Well the doctors said its an 8-12 month recovery process, soooooo..He still could come back". So what the hell happens if that 12 month mark hits and Derrick still refuses to play, DESPITE being cleared a long time ago?



He's going to luck out because the Bulls will probably get bounced from the playoffs just before the 12-month mark is reached.


----------



## Da Grinch

R-Star said:


> So Derrick is cleared to play, doctors say he's 100% recovered.......but the Bulls are in the wrong because Derrick doesn't have to play unless he feels like it?
> 
> If anything they should be going after him for breach of contract.


truth be told its an 8-12 month injury and playing is a part of the recovery process , he's playing in practice but states he's not ready for games . legally you can't make someone do something they feel is harmful to them or puts them at risk for harm they haven't specifically sign up to do.

inside of a year there really isn't anything they can do about it and by the time of the anniversary of his surgery which is in mid-may they will have to get by the nets to have a legit case , which they would lose anyway outside of proof derrick is lying about how he feels about his knee.

the bulls would also be fools for going after rose because he is a bargain at his deal(if his knees are fully healed of course),if on the small chance they succeeded it would just make him a free agent , you go after the boozers of this world , not the derrick rose's.


----------



## R-Star

Da Grinch said:


> truth be told its an 8-12 month injury and playing is a part of the recovery process , he's playing in practice but states he's not ready for games . legally you can't make someone do something they feel is harmful to them or puts them at risk for harm they haven't specifically sign up to do.
> 
> inside of a year there really isn't anything they can do about it and by the time of the anniversary of his surgery which is in mid-may they will have to get by the nets to have a legit case , which they would lose anyway outside of proof derrick is lying about how he feels about his knee.
> 
> the bulls would also be fools for going after rose because he is a bargain at his deal(if his knees are fully healed of course),if on the small chance they succeeded it would just make him a free agent , you go after the boozers of this world , not the derrick rose's.


The point of the post was that Derrick is the one who is obviously ok to play, and you're blaming the Bulls.


----------



## Da Grinch

R-Star said:


> The point of the post was that Derrick is the one who is obviously ok to play, and you're blaming the Bulls.



i go by what is shown and what is logical.

if the bulls went the breach of contract route it would just be stupid , if they lost they which is by far the most likely scenario they would just be embarrassing themselves at best and at worst would be the standard bearer for franchises no one would want to play for .

and if they won they lose their franchise player for no compensation. because you cant legally make anyone play especially if they are claiming its unsafe in some way, at the most you would get back 5 weeks salary(when he was cleared)and the rest of the contract voided...its simply a stupid viewpoint to have .

which is why no one in the nba has ever done it...and if they were going to start they wouldn't start with rose but with a scrub who wasn't waiting for in the first place.

also the bulls cant decide how rose rehabs his knee , its not their call, its rose's , and as long as a player is working to get better as rose does appear to be doing , he cant be faulted for not being done on the bulls timetable. being cleared to play does not equal 100% players play hurt all the time, if you are legitimately hurt you dont have to play ,

they choose to play as rose did for most of last season.

a doctor clearing him is not the end all be all , if it were Rose would be playing and i think its clear to everyone that he isn't.

the idea of suing him is foolishness .


----------



## R-Star

Da Grinch said:


> i go by what is shown and what is logical.
> 
> if the bulls went the breach of contract route it would just be stupid , if they lost they which is by far the most likely scenario they would just be embarrassing themselves at best and at worst would be the standard bearer for franchises no one would want to play for .
> 
> and if they won they lose their franchise player for no compensation. because you cant legally make anyone play especially if they are claiming its unsafe in some way, at the most you would get back 5 weeks salary(when he was cleared)and the rest of the contract voided...its simply a stupid viewpoint to have .
> 
> which is why no one in the nba has ever done it...and if they were going to start they wouldn't start with rose but with a scrub who wasn't waiting for in the first place.
> 
> also the bulls cant decide how rose rehabs his knee , its not their call, its rose's , and as long as a player is working to get better as rose does appear to be doing , he cant be faulted for not being done on the bulls timetable. being cleared to play does not equal 100% players play hurt all the time, if you are legitimately hurt you dont have to play ,
> 
> they choose to play as rose did for most of last season.
> 
> a doctor clearing him is not the end all be all , if it were Rose would be playing and i think its clear to everyone that he isn't.
> 
> the idea of suing him is foolishness .


Again, you seem to be refusing to talk about the point that you're blaming the Bulls for stating that the doctors cleared him to play. Why you refuse to talk about that is beyond me.


----------



## yodurk

Whatever the case may be, Derrick Rose can still salvage this situation. But time is running out fast. If we get bounced from the playoffs with no return from Rose, and no definitive statements on his status, people will continue to pound him for the next 6 months until training camp starts. 

Not getting my hopes up or anything, but a return on either Thursday or Saturday would go a LONG way to smoothing over his terrible PR strategy with fans and media.

Then again I wonder -- in a conspiracy theory sort of way -- if Rose is seeing if his teammates can take care of New Jersey by themselves so he can pull a sneak attack on Miami. Silly I know.


----------



## Da Grinch

R-Star said:


> Again, you seem to be refusing to talk about the point that you're blaming the Bulls for stating that the doctors cleared him to play. Why you refuse to talk about that is beyond me.


what's to talk about ?

i already posted about it, maybe you should consider reading before you post and it wouldn't be beyond you.

you clear a player who in less than month earlier mused about not playing at all that season , and whose brother/manager 2weeks earlier went on a tirade about how the bulls lack of trade action was a big factor in derrick's decision to play this season (apparently the decision was no )..

the whole point of clearing a player to play is a public declaration he can play in games , and it didn't happen its not too much to ask that the bulls be on the same page as their player .

that's common sense.

if the decision to play was made by rose this season due to bulls front office inaction , then that decision was made 2 months ago before he could come back .

and either the bulls knew about it or they didn't .

if they didn't despite the public statements and the fact rose was there working out everyday rehabbing they fell down on the job.

if they did know , which is much more likely they cleared him anyway to put pressure on him to play and answer questions constantly on when he would be back, putting the ball in his court.

if the decision was made by rose because of his confidence in his knee , then the bulls are simply assholes because that is a legit concern , far too many players have destroyed their careers because they came back too early and re-injured themselves because they were overcompensating other parts of their bodies (penny, grant hill, marcus fizer did it on the bulls 10 years ago) and they weren't honest with themselves and came back even though they knew they were favoring their knee.

either way the blame and result is the same , the bulls shouldn't have cleared him and derrick wont play till he feels like it.


----------



## Da Grinch

yodurk said:


> Whatever the case may be, Derrick Rose can still salvage this situation. But time is running out fast. If we get bounced from the playoffs with no return from Rose, and no definitive statements on his status, people will continue to pound him for the next 6 months until training camp starts.
> 
> Not getting my hopes up or anything, but a return on either Thursday or Saturday would go a LONG way to smoothing over his terrible PR strategy with fans and media.
> 
> Then again I wonder -- in a conspiracy theory sort of way -- if Rose is seeing if his teammates can take care of New Jersey by themselves so he can pull a sneak attack on Miami. Silly I know.


if rose comes back and plays well all will be forgotten very fast no matter when he comes back. 

hopefully the front office gives him the help he feels he needs over the summer.


----------



## taco_daddy

yodurk said:


> Then again I wonder -- in a conspiracy theory sort of way -- if Rose is seeing if his teammates can take care of New Jersey by themselves so he can pull a sneak attack on Miami. Silly I know.


Rose isn't even in game shape, no way this could happen or even be effective. If Rose is expecting to play against Miami in the next series, he needs to play Game 3 of this series to start with. Even then, he wouldn't get into game shape, let alone Miami playoff game shape in a week anyhow. But he's for sure not going to pop up out of nowhere to play Miami in the playoffs as the very first game of his for the entire season.


----------



## taco_daddy

Da Grinch said:


> what's to talk about ?
> 
> i already posted about it, maybe you should consider reading before you post and it wouldn't be beyond you.
> 
> you clear a player who in less than month earlier mused about not playing at all that season , and whose brother/manager 2weeks earlier went on a tirade about how the bulls lack of trade action was a big factor in derrick's decision to play this season (apparently the decision was no )..
> 
> the whole point of clearing a player to play is a public declaration he can play in games , and it didn't happen its not too much to ask that the bulls be on the same page as their player .
> 
> that's common sense.
> 
> if the decision to play was made by rose this season due to bulls front office inaction , then that decision was made 2 months ago before he could come back .
> 
> and either the bulls knew about it or they didn't .
> 
> if they didn't despite the public statements and the fact rose was there working out everyday rehabbing they fell down on the job.
> 
> if they did know , which is much more likely they cleared him anyway to put pressure on him to play and answer questions constantly on when he would be back, putting the ball in his court.
> 
> if the decision was made by rose because of his confidence in his knee , then the bulls are simply assholes because that is a legit concern , far too many players have destroyed their careers because they came back too early and re-injured themselves because they were overcompensating other parts of their bodies (penny, grant hill, marcus fizer did it on the bulls 10 years ago) and they weren't honest with themselves and came back even though they knew they were favoring their knee.
> 
> either way the blame and result is the same , the bulls shouldn't have cleared him and derrick wont play till he feels like it.


Excellent post. I don't know if Rose is being a chicken by not having already come back or if he is being wise waiting a little longer, but I wanted to throw Kobe's name in the mix. Too many people think Rose should have Kobe's heart and just play through whatever, but a large part of why Kobe tore his Achilles tendon is because he rushed back to play. If he had of sat out a few games and let other injuries heal, he wouldn't have over compensated and ended up with this season ending injury. Sure, he got his team into the playoffs. Our team is in the playoffs too. But both of our teams are basically staring at the same fate. Kobe would be playing now if he would have just treated his previous injuries more serious and sat out a game or two (or at least reduced the minutes he was playing).

Again, I don't know if Rose should have already come back or if he is on the right path. Only he and those close to him know the answer to that. But based on Rose's history here, I'll just give him the benefit of the doubt. He came back multiple times last season and played through a few different injuries only to tear his ACL in the first game of the playoffs last year. If he feels he needs to sit to get well, then I'll support that. 

HIS ASS BETTER BE READY TO PLAY START OF NEXT SEASON THOUGH!!! :azdaja:


----------



## King Joseus

taco_daddy said:


> Excellent post. I don't know if Rose is being a chicken by not having already come back or if he is being wise waiting a little longer, but I wanted to throw Kobe's name in the mix. Too many people think Rose should have Kobe's heart and just play through whatever, but *a large part of why Kobe tore his Achilles tendon is because he rushed back to play. If he had of sat out a few games and let other injuries heal, he wouldn't have over compensated and ended up with this season ending injury. Sure, he got his team into the playoffs. Our team is in the playoffs too. But both of our teams are basically staring at the same fate. Kobe would be playing now if he would have just treated his previous injuries more serious and sat out a game or two (or at least reduced the minutes he was playing).*


Pretty sure this is a misconception, at least as it pertains to the achilles injury that has him out right now. Almost positive I've read that that's an injury not caused by wear and such.

In any case, I'd obviously love for Rose to come back in these playoffs, but I don't expect it. Unfortunate for sure, as I think he'd be better off having come back at some point this season (assuming he is medically fine as has been reported).


----------



## taco_daddy

King Joseus said:


> Pretty sure this is a misconception, at least as it pertains to the achilles injury that has him out right now. Almost positive I've read that that's an injury not caused by wear and such.
> 
> In any case, I'd obviously love for Rose to come back in these playoffs, but I don't expect it. Unfortunate for sure, as I think he'd be better off having come back at some point this season (assuming he is medically fine as has been reported).


What do you think caused it? It's a move he's made a thousand times before, by his own statements. He wasn't doing anything fancy when he tore it. It's not just about wear and tear, it's over compensation. One body part is injured so you shift the stress to other body parts.


----------



## Diable

Without being a doctor I can't say this with any certainty, but I doubt that anyone knows why your Achilles tears on any particular move. It does seem that that particular injury is probably something that occurs over the course of time, you develop some weakness there and over the course of time it gets worse. Then you just snap it when the weakness is great enough.


----------



## King Joseus

taco_daddy said:


> What do you think caused it? It's a move he's made a thousand times before, by his own statements. He wasn't doing anything fancy when he tore it. It's not just about wear and tear, it's over compensation. One body part is injured so you shift the stress to other body parts.


I am not a medical professional, so I don't speculate on such things.


----------



## jnrjr79

taco_daddy said:


> Rose isn't even in game shape, no way this could happen or even be effective. If Rose is expecting to play against Miami in the next series, he needs to play Game 3 of this series to start with. Even then, he wouldn't get into game shape, let alone Miami playoff game shape in a week anyhow. But he's for sure not going to pop up out of nowhere to play Miami in the playoffs as the very first game of his for the entire season.



Oh, come on. Joakim Noah isn't in game shape, and single-handledly willed the Bulls to a win last night. 

Let's not pretend that Derrick Rose right now would not make this team immensely better.


----------



## taco_daddy

Diable said:


> Without being a doctor I can't say this with any certainty, but I doubt that anyone knows why your Achilles tears on any particular move. It does seem that that particular injury is probably something that occurs over the course of time, you develop some weakness there and over the course of time it gets worse. Then you just snap it when the weakness is great enough.


I can buy that. On another note, to agree with a point thebizkit69u made earlier, Rose should at least at this point declare whether he intends to play or not. Not many games left, so no sense in continuing the suspense. He either suits up for Game 3 or at least addresses the fans as to why not.


----------



## jnrjr79

taco_daddy said:


> Too many people think Rose should have Kobe's heart and just play through whatever, *but a large part of why Kobe tore his Achilles tendon is because he rushed back to play*.



Thanks, doctor.

:rofl:


----------



## taco_daddy

jnrjr79 said:


> Oh, come on. Joakim Noah isn't in game shape, and single-handledly willed the Bulls to a win last night.
> 
> Let's not pretend that Derrick Rose right now would not make this team immensely better.


He's got to be better conditioned than Rose. Noah played most of the season. Rose hasn't played a single game yet. Plus, since Noah is playing now, should we win this round Noah will be in better game condition to play against Miami. Sure Rose would make this a better team if he came back, but the further along we go the more doubtful I become. He doesn't think he's ready to play meaningless regular season games but he's ready to take on Miami in the playoffs?



jnrjr79 said:


> Thanks, doctor.
> 
> :rofl:


So you don't think playing on major injuries makes you more susceptible to other injuries? Players should almost always play then.


----------



## R-Star

Da Grinch said:


> what's to talk about ?
> 
> i already posted about it, maybe you should consider reading before you post and it wouldn't be beyond you.
> 
> you clear a player who in less than month earlier mused about not playing at all that season , and whose brother/manager 2weeks earlier went on a tirade about how the bulls lack of trade action was a big factor in derrick's decision to play this season (apparently the decision was no )..
> 
> the whole point of clearing a player to play is a public declaration he can play in games , and it didn't happen its not too much to ask that the bulls be on the same page as their player .
> 
> that's common sense.
> 
> if the decision to play was made by rose this season due to bulls front office inaction , then that decision was made 2 months ago before he could come back .
> 
> and either the bulls knew about it or they didn't .
> 
> if they didn't despite the public statements and the fact rose was there working out everyday rehabbing they fell down on the job.
> 
> if they did know , which is much more likely they cleared him anyway to put pressure on him to play and answer questions constantly on when he would be back, putting the ball in his court.
> 
> if the decision was made by rose because of his confidence in his knee , then the bulls are simply assholes because that is a legit concern , far too many players have destroyed their careers because they came back too early and re-injured themselves because they were overcompensating other parts of their bodies (penny, grant hill, marcus fizer did it on the bulls 10 years ago) and they weren't honest with themselves and came back even though they knew they were favoring their knee.
> 
> either way the blame and result is the same ,* the bulls shouldn't have cleared him and derrick wont play till he feels like it.*


Why? Because it will make him look bad? Why the hell should the Bulls care about that if he's 100% and just refusing to play in some sort of pathetic attempt at a power move initiated by his brother?


----------



## jnrjr79

taco_daddy said:


> He's got to be better conditioned than Rose. Noah played most of the season. Rose hasn't played a single game yet. Plus, since Noah is playing now, should we win this round Noah will be in better game condition to play against Miami. Sure Rose would make this a better team if he came back, but the further along we go the more doubtful I become. He doesn't think he's ready to play meaningless regular season games but he's ready to take on Miami in the playoffs?


Rose has been practicing fully for some time now, while Noah hasn't practiced basically since the All-Star break, and missed 12 of the final 14 games. 

Rose would obviously be in better shape right now.

He was likely "ready" to play meaningless regular season games, so I reject that particular sentiment re: readiness for Miami.



> So you don't think playing on major injuries makes you more susceptible to other injuries? Players should almost always play then.


It is ridiculous and irresponsible for you to make some assertion about what caused Kobe to tear his Achilles. You have no earthly idea.


----------



## taco_daddy

jnrjr79 said:


> He was likely "ready" to play meaningless regular season games, so I reject that particular sentiment re: readiness for Miami.


So what is going to change his mind to get him to play against Miami that didn't convince him to play less intense games in the regular season?


----------



## jnrjr79

taco_daddy said:


> So what is going to change his mind to get him to play against Miami that didn't convince him to play less intense games in the regular season?



I don't think anything is going to change his mind. I don't expect to see him play. Based on the information available to us, I think that's the wrong decision, but it's how I expect it to go.


----------



## R-Star

taco_daddy said:


> So what is going to change his mind to get him to play against Miami that didn't convince him to play less intense games in the regular season?


Problem is, this shouldn't be up to Rose in the first place.


That is why I wish all leagues had non guaranteed contracts like the NFL.


----------



## Dornado

R-Star said:


> Problem is, this shouldn't be up to Rose in the first place.
> 
> 
> That is why I wish all leagues had non guaranteed contracts like the NFL.


I don't know if emulating a league where 78% of players are either bankrupt or under financial stress after they are out of the league for 2 years is the way to go (the non-guaranteed contracts are obviously only part of the problem, but still).


----------



## yodurk

taco_daddy said:


> Rose isn't even in game shape, no way this could happen or even be effective. If Rose is expecting to play against Miami in the next series, he needs to play Game 3 of this series to start with. Even then, he wouldn't get into game shape, let alone Miami playoff game shape in a week anyhow. But he's for sure not going to pop up out of nowhere to play Miami in the playoffs as the very first game of his for the entire season.


Would surprise the hell out of me, that's for sure. Again I'm not getting hopes up.

But remember, Miami did the same to us with Udonis Haslem 2 years ago (Game 2, I believe) and that was a major turning point in that series. We were dominating the glass and interior until Haslem entered the fray and he wasn't held back by rustiness. Granted different injuries and different lengths of time out.


----------



## yodurk

jnrjr79 said:


> Oh, come on. Joakim Noah isn't in game shape, and single-handledly willed the Bulls to a win last night.
> 
> Let's not pretend that Derrick Rose right now would not make this team immensely better.


Give me 20-25 minutes of Derrick Rose off the bench as a Miami sneak attack, and I'm thrilled as all heck. Definitely helps our chances of winning, IMO. Game shape or not.


----------



## R-Star

Dornado said:


> I don't know if emulating a league where 78% of players are either bankrupt or under financial stress after they are out of the league for 2 years is the way to go (the non-guaranteed contracts are obviously only part of the problem, but still).


I have no sympathy for that. I'm tired of hearing the "They don't know how to save money. The league needs to invest in teaching them."


Give a white trash kid a few million bucks when he turns 18 and see how many people feel bad when he's out of cash in a few years. I know I wouldn't.


----------



## jnrjr79

yodurk said:


> Give me 20-25 minutes of Derrick Rose off the bench as a Miami sneak attack, and I'm thrilled as all heck. Definitely helps our chances of winning, IMO. Game shape or not.


Exactly. This is a notion that's wholly separate and distinct from whether or not Derrick is ready. If he is indeed ready, there is no argument somehow the Bulls would be more likely to win with him riding the pine.


----------



## Da Grinch

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/k...-spectator-for-now-and-for-foreseeable-future



> "He really wants to play," teammate Luol Deng was saying in the visiting locker room, after the Bulls became the first road team to win in these playoffs with a 90-82 victory in Brooklyn on Monday night. "And this decision, even though people are coming down on him, it's really killing him. It's really hurting him. I know how much he wants to be out there with us."






> "I'm sitting next to him at the end of the bench; I've been sitting in that same spot all year long," Taj Gibson said. "It's real frustrating for him. All he keeps saying is, 'I can't wait to get out there, I can't wait to get out there, I can't wait to get out there and guard that player,' and stuff like that."
> 
> "He never shut off," Deng said. "He's still within the team. … His leadership is still there."


well according to deng and gibson it appears rose is not legitimately not ready.

it is possible he has had unpublicized setbacks.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Da Grinch said:


> http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/k...-spectator-for-now-and-for-foreseeable-future
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well according to deng and gibson it appears rose is not legitimately not ready.
> 
> it is possible he has had unpublicized setbacks.


That is very scary if hes having some physical setbacks. His ACL should be 100% healed by now, his game will come along but if that knee surgery din't fix anything........ Winter is indeed coming.


----------



## Da Grinch

thebizkit69u said:


> That is very scary if hes having some physical setbacks. His ACL should be 100% healed by now, his game will come along but if that knee surgery din't fix anything........ Winter is indeed coming.


the acl should have been healed for quite some time , the rehab now is mostly to build up the muscle strength and endurance around the ligament.

thats why playing is the last phase to rebuild the muscle around the joints , but if he's not building strength to equal his other leg , he's just an injury waiting to happen.


----------



## R-Star

Da Grinch said:


> http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/k...-spectator-for-now-and-for-foreseeable-future
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well according to deng and gibson it appears rose is not legitimately not ready.
> 
> it is possible he has had unpublicized setbacks.


Setbacks that allow him to do between the legs dunks and fool doctors into giving him 100% clearance?


----------



## Dornado

Dr. R-Star has decided he's ready to go, we know that


----------



## jnrjr79

Dornado said:


> Dr. R-Star has decided he's ready to go, we know that



Well, and Dr. Cole.

Not sure which is more persuasive.

:clown:


----------



## R-Star

Dornado said:


> Dr. R-Star has decided he's ready to go, we know that


No one else has come out saying he's ready to go? Like his doctor, and the Bulls?


----------



## Da Grinch

R-Star said:


> Setbacks that allow him to do between the legs dunks and fool doctors into giving him 100% clearance?


is there a difference between clearance and your 100% clearance ?

either way he isn't playing so i guess it doesn't matter.


----------



## R-Star

Da Grinch said:


> the acl should have been healed for quite some time , the rehab now is mostly to build up the muscle strength and endurance around the ligament.
> 
> thats why playing is the last phase to rebuild the muscle around the joints , but if he's not building strength to equal his other leg , he's just an injury waiting to happen.


So anyone agreeing with the doctor's saying he's 100% cleared gets replies like "Oh really? Is that your professional opinion doctor?"

But you write shit like "He needs to rebuild the muscle around the joints, or I'm sure he'll just get injured again."




.....That's cute.


----------



## yodurk

thebizkit69u said:


> That is very scary if hes having some physical setbacks. His ACL should be 100% healed by now, his game will come along but if that knee surgery din't fix anything........ Winter is indeed coming.


This may very well be true. However, connecting the dots...I somehow doubt the problem is with his knee or ACL directly. Not only the clear footage of him dunking in pregame and reports of killing it in practice. Also those reports of "burning hamstrings", sore quads and back, etc. The hamstring stuff was reported during a TNT broadcast and I think the other stuff came from Boers/Bernstein if I recall (via their "source"). So the whole thing about not being able to trust his body may actually be causing some physical problems, i.e., overcompensation.

In any case I don't understand why he needs to keep this so private.


----------



## Da Grinch

R-Star said:


> So anyone agreeing with the doctor's saying he's 100% cleared gets replies like "Oh really? Is that your professional opinion doctor?"
> 
> But you write shit like "He needs to rebuild the muscle around the joints, or I'm sure he'll just get injured again."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .....That's cute.


must be fun.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Derricks recovery was said to be 8-12 months, tomorrow is the one year anniversary of his injury. If Rose doesn't play on Monday, what's up?


----------



## Wade County

Sometimes things dont work exactly to the doctors schedule...

I dont think anyone should be challenging Derrick's heart on this. If he was OK, he'd be playing. Clearly he is still feeling discomfort and a lack of confidence in the knee.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Wade County said:


> Sometimes things dont work exactly to the doctors schedule...
> 
> I dont think anyone should be challenging Derrick's heart on this. If he was OK, he'd be playing. Clearly he is still feeling discomfort and a lack of confidence in the knee.


Well he's as ok as he's going to get. This is something more than just not feeling 100 percent.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Reggie Rose just told the tribune that Rose might/could return in the second round. Says that Rose mentally is 90% right now and improving rapidly.


----------



## Firefight

thebizkit69u said:


> Reggie Rose just told the tribune that Rose might/could return in the second round. Says that Rose mentally is 90% right now and improving rapidly.


I've said this for awhile... I have a good feeling that _when_the Bulls knock off Brooklyn, you'll see Rose come back. That is of course if he doesn't come back tonight :cabbagepatch:


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> Reggie Rose just told the tribune that Rose might/could return in the second round. Says that Rose mentally is 90% right now and improving rapidly.



This saga just gets weirder and weirder.


----------



## thebizkit69u

jnrjr79 said:


> This saga just gets weirder and weirder.


I think team Rose fully believed that the Bulls were not going to get past the first round and technically not hit that 12 month mark in the 8-12 month recovery process. Things have changed now, the 12 month mark is up and it looks like the Bulls will move on to the next round. I can't see how team Rose could sit Rose out past the 12 month mark, it would damage his image even more. 

Is Adidas pushing team Rose, could this be the reason why the possibility of a Rose return is now looking like it might just happen?


----------



## Firefight

thebizkit69u said:


> I think team Rose fully believed that the Bulls were not going to get past the first round and technically not hit that 12 month mark in the 8-12 month recovery process. Things have changed now, the 12 month mark is up and it looks like the Bulls will move on to the next round. I can't see how team Rose could sit Rose out past the 12 month mark, it would damage his image even more.
> 
> *Is Adidas pushing team Rose,* could this be the reason why the possibility of a Rose return is now looking like it might just happen?


This is one thing all along I have not agreed with. Yes, Adidas has a lot invested in DRose. But, that doesn't mean that they have much of a say in his return. First I heard they pushed him NOT to come back to early. Now, I'm hearing they are pushing him to come back so their product can be on display. 
The truth is, DRose already has his money from them. It's not like he's listening to them to get paid. Plus, why put pressure on DRose and possibly piss him off? I'm sure Nike would love to have Rose on their team, injured or playing. It's not like the Rose Adidas line is exactly struggling anyways.


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> I think team Rose fully believed that the Bulls were not going to get past the first round and technically not hit that 12 month mark in the 8-12 month recovery process. Things have changed now, the 12 month mark is up and it looks like the Bulls will move on to the next round. I can't see how team Rose could sit Rose out past the 12 month mark, it would damage his image even more.
> 
> Is Adidas pushing team Rose, could this be the reason why the possibility of a Rose return is now looking like it might just happen?



I do wonder about the Adidas thing sometimes. I can never get myself to fully believe they have a lot to do with it, but then again, if you were paying me $200 million, you would have a hell of a lot of say in my affairs, frankly.

I do think that Reggie's comment most likely stems from a bit of embarrassment he has about his prior comments. He didn't think the Bulls would make it past anyone without Derrick. Instead, they are one game away from advancing to the next round, and that's with guys like Noah and Hinrich playing (or at least tonight for Kirk, not playing) at much less than 100%. 

I still have a hard time seeing Derrick coming back against the Heat, even as we pass the 12-month since surgery mark. I'm all for it, but I would be surprised. 

I will say, finishing off Brooklyn would be mighty satisfying in terms of accomplishment for a Roseless team, but I have a hard time seeing them stealing more than one game from Miami. They will play tough, physical basketball, but Miami has that extra gear (and obviously talent) that the Bulls do not, absent odd Nate Robinson heroics.

If Derrick comes back, I can't really see him playing well enough right out of the gate to beat Miami, but what the hell? It would make things more interesting, at least.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Firefight said:


> This is one thing all along I have not agreed with. Yes, Adidas has a lot invested in DRose. But, that doesn't mean that they have much of a say in his return. First I heard they pushed him NOT to come back to early. Now, I'm hearing they are pushing him to come back so their product can be on display.
> The truth is, DRose already has his money from them. It's not like he's listening to them to get paid. Plus, why put pressure on DRose and possibly piss him off? I'm sure Nike would love to have Rose on their team, injured or playing. It's not like the Rose Adidas line is exactly struggling anyways.


Its just interesting how all of a sudden it sounds like Reggie is changing his tone. As for the Adidas angle, while they aren't struggling, I can't say that they would not be happy to see one of their players in the second Round, especially now that Dwight is out.


----------



## Firefight

thebizkit69u said:


> Its just interesting how all of a sudden it sounds like Reggie is changing his tone. As for the Adidas angle, while they aren't struggling, I can't say that they would not be happy to see one of their players in the second Round, especially now that Dwight is out.


Happy, yes... That's an understatement. I guess my point was more that they very well can have an opinion, but that the opinion doesn't matter too much. $200 million dollars has a contract attached to it that requires Derrick to make commercials, appearances, etc... But doesn't say anything about playing on the court. That's between Rose and the Bulls org.


----------



## taco_daddy

jnrjr79 said:


> If Derrick comes back, I can't really see him playing well enough right out of the gate to beat Miami


This is basically what I was saying in my other comments. I know you took issue with the terminology I used, but I just wanted to point out, this is still basically what I was saying.


----------



## jnrjr79

taco_daddy said:


> This is basically what I was saying in my other comments. I know you took issue with the terminology I used, but I just wanted to point out, this is still basically what I was saying.



Sure. I still think he should play, but I'll be surprised if he's at a superstar level right out of the gate. Of course, that's why he should have come back earlier.


----------



## giusd

Am i the only one who thinks the reason Rose is not playing is he feels he is not ready????
We can all debate why he thinks he is not ready to play but it has nothing to do with the Adidas angle, his family, ect. IMHO I just think he does not feel ready to play! But i am old(er) so maybe i am just out of touch.


----------



## doctordrizzay

I don't think Rose is going to make a difference when it comes to Miami. 

The heat beat them in 5 games when Rose was the MVP and had one hell of a team while the Heat had bibby and james jones as point guard and sixth man.


----------



## thebizkit69u

> "And to me, I think Derrick owes it to his teammates at this stage," Kerr said. "And again, I've been Derrick's biggest supporter on this. I've been saying all along, up until two days ago, I've been saying, 'He should not play if he's not comfortable.'
> 
> "But if this is just about not being fully confident, you've got to go out there. If this is about, 'Hey, it doesn't feel right and I'm worried I can hurt it,' then no way should he play. But if this is just about, 'You know gosh, I'm just not quite confident yet.' I would appeal to him and say, 'Can you give us 20 minutes.' And if you're Derrick, you've been watching Noah and Hinrich play on one leg this whole series, at what point do you start to feel sort of self-conscious and guilty about what's unfolding?"


Steve Kerr


----------



## yodurk

Thanks Steve, check's in the mail.

Have to wonder if we lose Thursday and Hinrich is still out (major bummer, he's arguably our MVP of the series), would Derrick consider a Game 7 return to be the hero? Or is he sticking to his guns and saying he still doesn't feel right. I highly doubt he'd come back rusty for a Game 7 but whatever, what else would get us past New Jersey on the road in Game 7 without Hinrich's D on Deron?


----------



## Good Hope

giusd said:


> Am i the only one who thinks the reason Rose is not playing is he feels he is not ready????
> We can all debate why he thinks he is not ready to play but it has nothing to do with the Adidas angle, his family, ect. IMHO I just think he does not feel ready to play! But i am old(er) so maybe i am just out of touch.


No, not the only one. However, I too am old.


----------



## jnrjr79

Well, there's a difference between _feeling_ ready and _being_ ready. There are lots of obstacles in life that we encounter that may make us uncomfortable or frightened. sometimes, you just have to get over it and take the plunge. Sometimes you even need a little prodding from those close to you.


----------



## transplant

It's kind of ironic. A stud player's prime generally only lasts about 5 or 6 years. A recurring theme among many Bulls' fans has been that they didn't want to see Bulls' management pass up any opportunities to win a championship while Rose is in his prime. Few of us know exactly how to feel as we see Rose himself pass up one of those opportunities.


----------



## Good Hope

Well, this next one is it. Win or go home. 

I think Kirk can't make it back. 

Whatcha gonna do, Derrick?


----------



## Rhyder

Good Hope said:


> No, not the only one. However, I too am old.


I just choose not to speculate on the matter, because it really is impossible to know what he is feeling.

He has the support of his teammates, coach, and GM, and you can tell he is invested in the team from the sidelines.

It sucks, but no one at the beginning of the year expected us to compete for the championship this season anyways. In fact, a lot of people were saying he should take the full year off even before he started his recovery process. It's amazing how the tune changes.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Rhyder said:


> In fact, a lot of people were saying he should take the full year off even before he started his recovery process. It's amazing how the tune changes.


Is there an athlete in pro sports who has ever taken this long to come back from 1 acl surgery in the past what, 2 decades? 



> Lastly, ACL rehabilitation is not only an issue of time. ACL rehabilitation involves a progression of therapeutic and *sport-specific activities*. In order to *progress *from one step of rehabilitation to the next, you *must *be able to complete certain activities. *If a patient is unable to continue progression, overall rehabilitation may be delayed.*


He is refusing to continue the recovery process by not playing. Sitting out this long and even longer since the pre season isn't even till October, could hurt him and not help.


----------



## jnrjr79

Good Hope said:


> Well, this next one is it. Win or go home.
> 
> I think Kirk can't make it back.
> 
> Whatcha gonna do, Derrick?




Warm up before the game, then watch it in a suit.


----------



## jnrjr79

Rhyder said:


> I just choose not to speculate on the matter, because it really is impossible to know what he is feeling.
> 
> He has the support of his teammates, coach, and GM, and you can tell he is invested in the team from the sidelines.
> 
> It sucks, but no one at the beginning of the year expected us to compete for the championship this season anyways. In fact, a lot of people were saying he should take the full year off even before he started his recovery process. It's amazing how the tune changes.


1. Whether the Bulls can win a championship has nothing to do with whether Derrick should play basketball if he's healthy.

2. If one disagrees with the sentiment in #1, then the fact the Spurs are vulnerable, OKC lost Westbrook, and Wade is hurting for the Heat all of a sudden should make you think this isn't a bad year to take a shot at it.

3. None of us knows whether he actually has the support of the teammates, coach, and GM. These are all people savvy enough to say the right things in public. The fact the Bulls FO leaked his medical clearance tends to indicate there is at least some feeling within the organization that he should be playing. 

4. How he is "feeling" really isn't dispositive of the issue. It is well documented that when it's time to return to the court, your knee might not feel identical to how it did pre-injury, and that playing in live games is part of how you get back to that state.


----------



## Rhyder

jnrjr79 said:


> 1. Whether the Bulls can win a championship has nothing to do with whether Derrick should play basketball if he's healthy.
> 
> 2. If one disagrees with the sentiment in #1, then the fact the Spurs are vulnerable, OKC lost Westbrook, and Wade is hurting for the Heat all of a sudden should make you think this isn't a bad year to take a shot at it.
> 
> 3. None of us knows whether he actually has the support of the teammates, coach, and GM. These are all people savvy enough to say the right things in public. The fact the Bulls FO leaked his medical clearance tends to indicate there is at least some feeling within the organization that he should be playing.
> 
> 4. How he is "feeling" really isn't dispositive of the issue. It is well documented that when it's time to return to the court, your knee might not feel identical to how it did pre-injury, and that playing in live games is part of how you get back to that state.


I understand the counterpoints. As I mentioned, I choose not to speculate. There is no way to know.

The players could be saying the right thing or actually mean it.

Reggie could be iterating Rose's thoughts or he could not.

Thibs definitely has his players back, so his comments don't really point you one direction or the other.

GarPax could be putting pressure on Rose intentionally by not ruling him out, or he could not be.

The best thing for Rose could be to play, but if Rose thinks the knee isn't strong enough, it might not be.


----------



## taco_daddy

LCMJ said:


> Luol feels guilty for missing one game because he had a spinal tap and was in the ER.
> 
> Rose misses the whole year and eats candy on the bench, while Nate Robinson is throwing up right next to him


I got this from RealGM. I found it funny. Not saying I agree with it, but it did make me chuckle.


----------



## thebizkit69u

taco_daddy said:


> I got this from RealGM. I found it funny. Not saying I agree with it, but it did make me chuckle.


Lol, I was going to try to make a meme out of this. 

Its just so damn insulting that its gotten to this point. Now the excuse is muscle memory.... Wtf.


----------



## Bulls96

It is time to close this thread or rename it to - *It's time for Derrick to play in D-league.*


----------



## thebizkit69u

The Bulls continue to allow this cluster **** to continue by not just saying Rose is out. Its no longer an insurance issue since the Bulls have been paid 6.5 million because Rose missed the entire season. There is NO POINT in continuing to allow the possibility of his return to even be a possibility! 

This story is going to reach a fever pitch nationally during this series.


----------



## BlakeJesus

I can't stand hearing about Rose anymore, and the worst part is he is absolutely bringing all of this on himself.


----------



## thebizkit69u

BlakeJesus said:


> I can't stand hearing about Rose anymore, and the worst part is he is absolutely bringing all of this on himself.


The interview he gave on Saturday was just bizarre. Answering questions without even looking at the reporters, giving nonsensical answers and laughing off a couple questions which clearly tell us that hes actually lying in some of his answers. 

When asked if BJ and Reggie came to a conclusion to sit out the entire season, Derrick just laughed nervously and denied it... 

This whole situation is just bizarre, the fact that he wouldn't even just say hes out is bizarre and saying stuff like "You never know" about a possible second round return is bizarre.


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> The Bulls continue to allow this cluster **** to continue by not just saying Rose is out. Its no longer an insurance issue since the Bulls have been paid 6.5 million because Rose missed the entire season. There is NO POINT in continuing to allow the possibility of his return to even be a possibility!
> 
> This story is going to reach a fever pitch nationally during this series.



The Bulls are keeping it open because Team Rose has asked them to do so. Would you recommend going against those wishes?


----------



## thebizkit69u

jnrjr79 said:


> The Bulls are keeping it open because Team Rose has asked them to do so. Would you recommend going against those wishes?


My point would then be, "Or else what?"

Honestly, the Bulls organization just continues to look like a bunch of idiots and have looked like idiots plenty of times in the past, so either way this organization is incapable of making a decision that will please anybody. 

Team Rose can't realistically shut him down the rest of his contract, so what else can they do? Its pretty clear that Team Rose is aiming for a Lebron'esque decision once Rose's contract is up. The Bulls have babied Rose from the get go, so if team Rose is headed in the direction that BJ wants, then whats the point of continuing to play nice?

Its time to man up, stop being a bunch passive idiots and shut his ass down.


----------



## Rhyder

thebizkit69u said:


> Its time to man up, stop being a bunch passive idiots and shut his ass down.


...which would do what exactly? Satisfy the group of fans who can't handle the "uncertainty?"


----------



## thebizkit69u

Rhyder said:


> ...which would do what exactly? Satisfy the group of fans who can't handle the "uncertainty?"


It tells us who the hell is in control. What exactly is the point of keeping the possibility of a return open? I see no benefit, yet a bunch of backlash has occurred because of it. It makes the Bulls organization look bad and its making Rose look bad.


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> My point would then be, "Or else what?"
> 
> Honestly, the Bulls organization just continues to look like a bunch of idiots and have looked like idiots plenty of times in the past, so either way this organization is incapable of making a decision that will please anybody.
> 
> Team Rose can't realistically shut him down the rest of his contract, so what else can they do? Its pretty clear that Team Rose is aiming for a Lebron'esque decision once Rose's contract is up. The Bulls have babied Rose from the get go, so if team Rose is headed in the direction that BJ wants, then whats the point of continuing to play nice?
> 
> Its time to man up, stop being a bunch passive idiots and shut his ass down.



To me, your position is insane. "Or else what?" Or else you further alienate your first superstar player since Michael Jordan, the cornerstone of your franchise, and the person you desperately need to re-sign at the end of his deal.

That doesn't matter to you? Weird.


----------



## jnrjr79

Rhyder said:


> ...which would do what exactly? Satisfy the group of fans who can't handle the "uncertainty?"



Right. Anyone who thinks the Bulls organization and not Derrick Rose personally is taking the bigger PR hit clearly isn't following the media. 

If Rose wants it this way, fine. But it's not a poor decision because it makes the organization look bad. It's a poor decision because it makes Derrick look bad.


----------



## BlakeJesus

Right, I would imagine the team wants its best player on the court. He's been medically cleared, there's no reason for the team to rule him out. The only reason Rose isn't out there contributing is because he doesn't "feel up to it".


----------



## thebizkit69u

jnrjr79 said:


> To me, your position is insane. "Or else what?" Or else you further alienate your first superstar player since Michael Jordan, the cornerstone of your franchise, and the person you desperately need to re-sign at the end of his deal.
> 
> That doesn't matter to you? Weird.


Listen, if Derrick leaves the Bulls (along with MILLIONS of Dollars)because the Bulls basically said hes not coming back with this little left in the post-season... I hate to break it to you, but that just means the kid was leaving anyways.

Everyone is looking bad right now, NOT just the Bulls but Derrick as well. Whats so disappointing is that its only going to get worse because the Bulls and Rose are keeping the door open.


----------



## doctordrizzay

Even though I think D-Rose should play at least 20 minutes a game. He probably doesn't want to become the 2nd Gilbert Arenas.


----------



## Rhyder

thebizkit69u said:


> Listen, if Derrick leaves the Bulls (along with MILLIONS of Dollars)because the Bulls basically said hes not coming back with this little left in the post-season... I hate to break it to you, but that just means the kid was leaving anyways.
> 
> Everyone is looking bad right now, NOT just the Bulls but Derrick as well. Whats so disappointing is that its only going to get worse because the Bulls and Rose are keeping the door open.


Looks bad to who, and what negative impact will that have?

Rose, the Bulls FO, the coach, and his teammates are all on the same page. They are holding out hope that he can come back and play.

If the Bulls announced they were shutting him down, and Rose felt ready to play at the end of the week, would that not get just as much negative PR?


----------



## thebizkit69u

Rhyder said:


> Rose, the Bulls FO, the coach, and his teammates are all on the same page.


Huh? Obviously in the case of Rose and the Bulls management, they are not on the same page. 



> If the Bulls announced they were shutting him down, and Rose felt ready to play at the end of the week, would that not get just as much negative PR?


I would be very skeptical if after all this time, he all of a sudden feels 110%. Especially, after just as recently as Sunday just said that hes the same and that NOTHING has changed.



> Who knows? Derrick Rose knows. His choice has been made to sit out the season and it includes no provisions for turning back, sources with direct knowledge told Yahoo! Sports.
> Inside and outside of the organization, that isn't much of a revelation.





> Of course, Derrick Rose could make everything easier and simply say so publicly. He refuses. So, Rose will still needlessly linger over this Heat-Bulls series.
> Make no mistake: The issue shouldn't be Rose's unwillingness to play until he believes his reconstructed knee meets his standards, but rather this charade of refusing to rule out his return in these playoffs. He's done so much to construct a deserving, rightful image as a star who always puts team over self, who cares deeply about leading, winning and sacrifice. That's who Rose was with the Bulls – who he'll be when he plays again – but this has needlessly chipped away at that reality of himself.





> For now, though, he owes this to everyone else: The truth about a decision that's been cemented, the truth that this remarkable Bulls run belongs to his teammates without a shadow, without the public specter of a savior who won't come back in these playoffs. - Adrian Wojnaroski


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> Listen, if Derrick leaves the Bulls (along with MILLIONS of Dollars)because the Bulls basically said hes not coming back with this little left in the post-season... I hate to break it to you, but that just means the kid was leaving anyways.


That sentence is literally untrue. If he leaves the Bulls _because_ they subverted his desires as to how the injury situation be handled, then he _per se_ would not have otherwise left. 

If you don't think maintaining a good relationship with your superstar player is important, I don't really know what to tell you.



> Everyone is looking bad right now, NOT just the Bulls but Derrick as well. Whats so disappointing is that its only going to get worse because the Bulls and Rose are keeping the door open.


Again, the Bulls don't look bad in comparison to Derrick. They're just doing what Derrick wants. I have not seen a lot of national pundits cry out that the Bulls need to announce a shutdown. I have seen a lot of national pundits cry out that Derrick Rose either (a) needs to play or (b) at least announce he will not be playing. That seems to demonstrate pretty clearly that the organization is not bearing the brunt of the ill will generated by this fiasco.


----------



## jnrjr79

Rhyder said:


> Rose, the Bulls FO, the coach, and his teammates are all on the same page. They are holding out hope that he can come back and play.



I do not believe Rose holds out any genuine hope that he will play this season. The FO and Thibs? I don't know. I suspect they also know he's not coming back.


----------



## thebizkit69u

jnrjr79 said:


> That sentence is literally untrue. If he leaves the Bulls _because_ they subverted his desires as to how the injury situation be handled, then he _per se_ would not have otherwise left.
> 
> If you don't think maintaining a good relationship with your superstar player is important, I don't really know what to tell you.


They have babied the guy, catered to his needs and made him incredibly rich. I think its a pretty damn good relationship if you ask me.


----------



## BenDengGo

i'm with bizkit on this one. i saw the post game interview with rose and it totally pissed me off!


...i wonder if he suddenly feels healty if the bulls some how get passed the heat, let alone the finals....


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> They have babied the guy, catered to his needs and made him incredibly rich. I think its a pretty damn good relationship if you ask me.



And in your last pist, you said he's leave.

Just take every contrary position I guess, even if it's yourself you're contradicting!


----------



## thebizkit69u

jnrjr79 said:


> And in your last pist, you said he's leave.
> 
> Just take every contrary position I guess, even if it's yourself you're contradicting!


I said that if he was going to leave because the Bulls shut him down, that he was just going to leave anyways. 

I never said that he was just going to leave period.


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> I said that if he was going to leave because the Bulls shut him down, that he was just going to leave anyways.
> 
> I never said that he was just going to leave period.



Gotcha. Fair enough.


----------



## yodurk

You know, if the Bulls are going to make Rose feel terrible about sitting out, this is probably the right way to do it. Let Rose sit on the bench and feel tortured about not playing while his teammates continue their Cinderella run in the playoffs. I guarantee this is killing him; if not for being unable to contribute, at the very least for lessening his perceived worth to the team. If he really did let Reggie & BJ convince him months ago to sit out all season, this is karma coming back to bite him in the ***. That said, I would welcome Derrick back in any capacity, even 15 minutes off the bench at a moment's notice. And man, that would be a major kick to the balls for Miami if it happened. Make it happen Derrick, it's not too late.


----------



## Rhyder

jnrjr79 said:


> I do not believe Rose holds out any genuine hope that he will play this season.


Rose's comments tonight say otherwise.



> The FO and Thibs? I don't know. I suspect they also know he's not coming back.


There is no reason not to shut him down if they *know.* There is no point in stating they are shutting him down unless it is 100% so.

For the record, I do not believe we will see Rose in the postseason.


----------



## jnrjr79

Rhyder said:


> Rose's comments tonight say otherwise.


Right. I don't believe him. And it's obviously been widely reported that this is false and the decision to shut it down was made some time ago. The only hope now is an unexpected change of heart.



> There is no reason not to shut him down if they *know.*


Sure there is. Team Rose requested no shut-down be announced. Team Rose is powerful.


----------



## yodurk

jnrjr79 said:


> Right. I don't believe him. And it's obviously been widely reported that this is false and the decision to shut it down was made some time ago. The only hope now is an unexpected change of heart.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure there is. Team Rose requested no shut-down be announced. Team Rose is powerful.


JNR, don't underestimate the significance of Miami having to gameplan for the possibility of a Rose return. That may very well be the motivation for not announcing a shut down to begin with, and honestly it is Thibs' MO to be a little secretive about whether his guys will play. Anything to get that extra edge no matter how small. 

Also there is this little tidbit from Alex Kennedy at Hoopsworld. Not the greatest source but this guy has broken stories in the past and is legit. At the very least this can't hurt from the standpoint of messing with Miami's heads a little bit. If they catch wind of this news, they will be thinking about this all thru Game 2 and while prepping for Game 3. The timing of this news does not seem like a coincidence, and we all know the only chance of beating Miami is to kick em in the balls early and often in this series.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/derrick-rose-may-suit-up-in-game-3

For the record I do not expect a Rose return either, just that there may be other motivations that haven't been discussed much.


----------



## jnrjr79

yodurk said:


> JNR, don't underestimate the significance of Miami having to gameplan for the possibility of a Rose return. That may very well be the motivation for not announcing a shut down to begin with, and honestly it is Thibs' MO to be a little secretive about whether his guys will play. Anything to get that extra edge no matter how small.
> 
> Also there is this little tidbit from Alex Kennedy at Hoopsworld. Not the greatest source but this guy has broken stories in the past and is legit. At the very least this can't hurt from the standpoint of messing with Miami's heads a little bit. If they catch wind of this news, they will be thinking about this all thru Game 2 and while prepping for Game 3. The timing of this news does not seem like a coincidence, and we all know the only chance of beating Miami is to kick em in the balls early and often in this series.
> 
> http://www.hoopsworld.com/derrick-rose-may-suit-up-in-game-3
> 
> For the record I do not expect a Rose return either, just that there may be other motivations that haven't been discussed much.


----------



## yodurk

jnrjr79 said:


>


:laugh:


----------



## Rhyder

http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/stor...tics-back-chicago-bulls-teammate-derrick-rose

Joakim on Rose:



> "Derrick's a brother," Noah said. "And to see him go through this is tough, but at the end of the day it's really funny how quick people are to judge. But people don't know what it's like to lead a team, especially after you tore your ACL.
> 
> "If you tore your ACL and you have to be the starting point guard and have the expectations that Derrick has, then maybe you can judge, but everybody who hasn't been in that situation before should really shut up because I feel like it's just so unfair to him and to this team. We're fighting, and everybody's going to just s--- on somebody who's been giving so much to this organization. It's crazy to me."


He obviously may not represent the sentiments of all the players, but Noah has not proven to sugar coat.


----------



## jnrjr79

Rhyder said:


> http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/stor...tics-back-chicago-bulls-teammate-derrick-rose
> 
> Joakim on Rose:
> 
> 
> 
> He obviously may not represent the sentiments of all the players, but Noah has not proven to sugar coat.



Except for blatantly lying about his altercation with Ben Wallace?

He's a good teammate. He said what you'd expect. And he didn't say Derrick is still hurt, just that he shouldn't be questioned. That's important.


----------



## BlakeJesus

I would like to place Derrick Rose on my ignore list until next season.


----------



## BenDengGo

jnrjr79 said:


> Except for blatantly lying about his altercation with Ben Wallace?
> 
> He's a good teammate. He said what you'd expect. And he didn't say Derrick is still hurt, just that he shouldn't be questioned. That's important.


he also considers derrick to be his little brother. so they are really good friends. there is no way he would stab him in the back in front of the press.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Injured the same day as Derrick Rose.






You gotta love the "What ACL recovery!" quote.


----------



## Rhyder

jnrjr79 said:


> Except for blatantly lying about his altercation with Ben Wallace?
> 
> He's a good teammate. He said what you'd expect. And he didn't say Derrick is still hurt, just that he shouldn't be questioned. That's important.


But to spin Jo's comments into a criticism is not fair either.

Everyone close to Rose is wrong, and the critics who do not interact with him at all are right.

I suppose everyone does enjoy a good conspiracy theory.


----------



## jnrjr79

Rhyder said:


> But to spin Jo's comments into a criticism is not fair either.
> 
> Everyone close to Rose is wrong, and the critics who do not interact with him at all are right.
> 
> I suppose everyone does enjoy a good conspiracy theory.



Who is spinning it into a criticism? No one. All we're saying is comments from teammates should be given little weight.

Charles Barkley agrees:



> Noah had pointed words for critics after the Bulls won Game 1 of the Eastern Conference semifinals against the Miami Heat on Monday.
> 
> ...
> 
> "You can't go by what his teammates say," Barkley said. "Your teammates always have to defend you. Your teammates can't question you publicly. But as fans and media people, we have the right to ask legitimate questions. And these aren't criticisms, these are fair questions.
> 
> "If he's practicing now for two moths without limitations, that tells me that he's practicing like there's nothing wrong. I don't understand why he's not playing."


http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/bulls/post/_/id/13859/barkley-very-surprised-rose-not-playing


----------



## thebizkit69u

Alex Kennedy from Hoopsworld wrote today that Derrick Rose might suit up for Friday's game against the Miami Heat.



> Word out of Chicago is that Rose may suit up for Game 3, which will be played this Friday. Suiting up doesn’t guarantee that Rose will play, but being in uniform on the bench rather than donning a suit would be a step forward for the 24-year-old. Nothing has been confirmed at this point, but it’s a possibility.


Ugh.. It just gets weirder.


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> Alex Kennedy from Hoopsworld wrote today that Derrick Rose might suit up for Friday's game against the Miami Heat.
> 
> 
> 
> Ugh.. It just gets weirder.



Actually, yesterday. See above.


----------



## Basel

:laugh: at suiting up being a big deal if he's not going to play.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Basel said:


> :laugh: at suiting up being a big deal if he's not going to play.


Its a big deal because then someone else will have to sit for a guy who might not even play.


----------



## BenDengGo

thebizkit69u said:


> Its a big deal because then someone else will have to sit for a guy who might not even play.


on that matter...

does anyone know why rip is in thibs doghouse?!?!

he cant possibly be worse than d.cook.


----------



## thebizkit69u

BenDengGo said:


> on that matter...
> 
> does anyone know why rip is in thibs doghouse?!?!
> 
> he cant possibly be worse than d.cook.


I honestly think hes just done as a player. Got nothing left in the tank.


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> I honestly think hes just done as a player. Got nothing left in the tank.


I still think it's something more. Rip has been meh when healthy, but Cook has been downright abysmal.


----------



## doctordrizzay

Has Rose' knee healed yet?


----------



## thebizkit69u

doctordrizzay said:


> Has Rose' knee healed yet?


Yes. Since February.


----------



## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> Yes. Since February.



Indeed.


----------



## Bogg

thebizkit69u said:


> Yes. Since February.


Yea, well, KG's knee was cleared to play right up until the bone fragments in it shredded the ligaments. This is one of those scenarios where it makes all the sense in the world to be overly cautious.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Bogg said:


> Yea, well, KG's knee was cleared to play right up until the bone fragments in it shredded the ligaments. This is one of those scenarios where it makes all the sense in the world to be overly cautious.


Garnet din't have the same injury. This is a poor comparison.


----------



## yodurk

thebizkit69u said:


> Garnet din't have the same injury. This is a poor comparison.


Yeah, everyone needs to stop with the lazy comparisons to other injuries. This is all over the place, in the media, among fans, and even former players speaking out.

Rose is 100% healthy from a physical standpoint. His off-court rehab was complete nearly 2 months ago. He is not 100% the old Derrick Rose yet but that is only b/c he hasn't done the on-court rehab. He is NOT going to reinjure his knee unless he has another freak landing like last time which could happen even he sat out another 2 years. 

This would not be a case of Rose playing injured, ala Garnett, Grant Hill, Robert Griffin, etc....not even close to any of those situations. He would arguably be the healthiest guy on the team in fact. That is what makes his decision to sit so ridiculous, particularly when the ACL surgeon says that you will benefit yourself from playing at this point.


----------



## thebizkit69u

He abandoned his team, I don't know why this doesn't bother people. There is just no defending his stupid stance. In fact, his refusal to continue the rehab plan is hurting him, not helping.


----------



## jnrjr79

According to ESPN, he's been ruled out for tonight (along with Kirk and Deng).


----------



## transplant

thebizkit69u said:


> He abandoned his team, I don't know why this doesn't bother people. There is just no defending his stupid stance. In fact, his refusal to continue the rehab plan is hurting him, not helping.


I haven't walked a mile in DRose's shoes so I'm having trouble condemning him. What I mean by this is that, though I've played competitive sports, been injured playing competitive sports and always returned just as soon as the docs said I could (OK, a couple times I jumped the gun), I have never been an elite, multi-millionaire professional athlete.

I don't understand why Rose has ignored physicians' advice and delayed his return. The best I can piece together is that he's waiting to feel "like his old self again" despite the fact that his docs and nearly every top athlete who has gone through ACL rehab says that this isn't how it works.

Fans can judge Rose however they like, but when they try to place the standards that apply to them on someone like Derrick Rose, I think they're foolish. Derrick Rose was the youngest MVP in the history of the NBA and is playing on a Bulls contract that will pay him a little less than $100mil and has endorsement deals that figure to more than double this amount.

He's not us and we'd probably be well-served to really and truly get this concept.

Bulls' fans waited more than a decade for a superstar to replace Michael Jordan. Rose is it. Many have fallen out of love with Rose, but most of those who have will fall back in love with him again if he shows that he can still ball like few others.


----------



## thebizkit69u

The Bulls would have won last night's game if rose played. How can Rose not be botheredby this? The whole series could have changed if he just gave us 15 minutes.


----------



## yodurk

Transplant, you make good and fair points, and it sounds like you and I agree more than not. Despite my confidence in Rose's knee being safe to play on from a health standpoint, I am actually going a little easier on him than the average fan. 

While I do question Reggie and BJ's motivations while whispering in Derrick's ear, I do not question Rose's intentions, and do not believe he is trying to cause a controversy. However that doesn't absolve him from making idiotic decisions to ignore doctors' advice and instead be worried about not being the old Derrick on Day 1. Fans would be far more forgiving IMO if he just goes out there and plays hard, even if he is only 50% of his former skill level and athletic ability at this point.

So really this is partly a PR issue -- i.e., making a statement to the world that he'll never give up on his team -- but also a health one in that his body would benefit from in-game action. Even if it's a mere 10-15 minutes off the bench as the energizer guy. That would be a HUGE boost from a basketball standpoint, and also to help sway the mental aspects of this series which we desperately need, e.g., take the Heat by surprise, make the refs protect Derrick (and they will!), etc.

I really do wonder how much it must eat at him to sit on the bench watching these playoffs so far. To simply be a spectator for that amazing 7-game series in Round 1, then punch Miami in the mouth at the start of Round 2, and to watch Miami team up with the officials in Games 2 and 3...and to know you are healthy enough to DO something about it. Man, that would just kill me if I were in his shoes.


----------



## transplant

yodurk said:


> Transplant, you make good and fair points, and it sounds like you and I agree more than not. Despite my confidence in Rose's knee being safe to play on from a health standpoint, I am actually going a little easier on him than the average fan.
> 
> While I do question Reggie and BJ's motivations while whispering in Derrick's ear, I do not question Rose's intentions, and do not believe he is trying to cause a controversy. However that doesn't absolve him from making idiotic decisions to ignore doctors' advice and instead be worried about not being the old Derrick on Day 1. Fans would be far more forgiving IMO if he just goes out there and plays hard, even if he is only 50% of his former skill level and athletic ability at this point.
> 
> So really this is partly a PR issue -- i.e., making a statement to the world that he'll never give up on his team -- but also a health one in that his body would benefit from in-game action. Even if it's a mere 10-15 minutes off the bench as the energizer guy. That would be a HUGE boost from a basketball standpoint, and also to help sway the mental aspects of this series which we desperately need, e.g., take the Heat by surprise, make the refs protect Derrick (and they will!), etc.
> 
> I really do wonder how much it must eat at him to sit on the bench watching these playoffs so far. To simply be a spectator for that amazing 7-game series in Round 1, then punch Miami in the mouth at the start of Round 2, and to watch Miami team up with the officials in Games 2 and 3...and to know you are healthy enough to DO something about it. Man, that would just kill me if I were in his shoes.


Yodurk, I can't imagine watching my teammates busting their asses while playing hurt with me watching, but able to play. This is the thing I can't relate to. This said, it seems clear that Rose ain't playin' this season and I have to be honest that I'll welcome DRose back with open arms in October.


----------



## Da Grinch

thebizkit69u said:


> Garnet din't have the same injury. This is a poor comparison.


what about penny hardaway , gilbert arenas and marcus fizer ?...they all had acl tears got cleared but weren't ready and re-injured themselves wrecking their careers with it.

are they better comparisons?


----------



## yodurk

Da Grinch said:


> what about penny hardaway , gilbert arenas and marcus fizer ?...they all had acl tears got cleared but weren't ready and re-injured themselves wrecking their careers with it.
> 
> are they better comparisons?


*Penny*: Different era of ACL surgery/rehab. His decline was also compounded by other non-ACL related injuries.

*Arenas*: I believe he tore his meniscus and started experiencing a degenerative condition after that. That is a different type of tear from Derrick's I believe. Interesting link on that here: http://dimemag.com/2011/07/dime-qa-expert-surgeon-talks-gilbert-arenas-knee-injuries/ Interesting point in that article, the doctor talks about the negative effects of overresting an injury and how the core muscles can experience atrophy. That is precisely why Dr. Cole's prescription to Derrick was on-court rehab, and why it is a terrible idea to ignore that advice. Arenas' decline was also compounded by multiple surgeries. 

*Fizer*: I cannot recall or find info on the specifics of his injury, but I can certainly say that Fizer was never very good to begin with. He was also very heavy -- at least 270 lbs -- and I can't imagine all that weight was very conducive to getting his former knee strength and range of motion back where it was pre-injury.

If we're comparing apples to apples, we really need to look no further than Ricky Rubio and Iman Shumpert. All similar sized guards with similar ACL injuries, using modern day medicine.


----------



## Da Grinch

yodurk said:


> *Penny*: Different era of ACL surgery/rehab. His decline was also compounded by other non-ACL related injuries.
> 
> *Arenas*: I believe he tore his meniscus and started experiencing a degenerative condition after that. That is a different type of tear from Derrick's I believe. Interesting link on that here: http://dimemag.com/2011/07/dime-qa-expert-surgeon-talks-gilbert-arenas-knee-injuries/ Interesting point in that article, the doctor talks about the negative effects of overresting an injury and how the core muscles can experience atrophy. That is precisely why Dr. Cole's prescription to Derrick was on-court rehab, and why it is a terrible idea to ignore that advice. Arenas' decline was also compounded by multiple surgeries.
> 
> *Fizer*: I cannot recall or find info on the specifics of his injury, but I can certainly say that Fizer was never very good to begin with. He was also very heavy -- at least 270 lbs -- and I can't imagine all that weight was very conducive to getting his former knee strength and range of motion back where it was pre-injury.
> 
> If we're comparing apples to apples, we really need to look no further than Ricky Rubio and Iman Shumpert. All similar sized guards with similar ACL injuries, using modern day medicine.


you are clearly missing the point , all 3 came back after they were cleared but before they were ready , overcompensated and re-injured themselves rather quickly. it has nothing to do with medical acumen...and you need to give it up with the modern medicine bit , 2 of those guys are still playing pro ball...just not well enough to do it here due to their repeated injuries.

http://ptthinktank.com/2011/02/14/f...return-to-sport-following-acl-reconstruction/


> Findings
> 
> 49% of their cohort had not returned to sport 1 year post operatively
> 50% of those that had not returned to sport cited fear as primary reason
> Fear was the most commonly cited primary or secondary reason for not returning to sport



fear of re-injury is a very real thing whether or not you or others want to believe it.

the risk is no where near worth the reward .


----------



## yodurk

Da Grinch said:


> you are clearly missing the point , all 3 came back after they were cleared but before they were ready , overcompensated and re-injured themselves rather quickly.


And you have proof that they were "overcompensating" instead of the possibility that there was a more severe underlying issue beyond just an ACL tear that may have required the additional surgeries? If so I'd love to see that. We could assume what you are saying...or we could make the more likely interpretation that their situations were just flat out different from Derrick Rose's. At least alot more different than what guys like Rubio and Shumpert have gone through. 




> it has nothing to do with medical acumen...and you need to give it up with the modern medicine bit , 2 of those guys are still playing pro ball...just not well enough to do it here due to their repeated injuries.


You know full well that comment was in reference to Penny as I clearly stated above. Unless you are claiming medicine has not progressed at all in the past 15 years since Penny's physical problems? I surely hope not.

And it is not just surgical technique, it also the better informed and standardized rehabilitative procedures relative to even 10 years ago. Where even your average joe who tears an ACL has a good chance at 100% recovery if they just follow and attack the rehab process (i.e,. that one that Derrick refuses to complete by training his muscles with true game activity looks like).



> http://ptthinktank.com/2011/02/14/f...return-to-sport-following-acl-reconstruction/
> 
> fear of re-injury is a very real thing whether or not you or others want to believe it.
> 
> the risk is no where near worth the reward .


There is always going to be risk on some level, but at some point the player has to get out there and let their body readjust to the level of player they were accustomed to pre-injury. You are really willing to go against the experience of guys like Dr. Cole who have seen hundreds of these types of injuries? Nothing is 100% certain but they sure as hell know the probabilities of risk vs. reward. Or we can just ignore the fact that your average pro athlete does not experience re-injury related to the ACL tear, and is still able to return within 9 months or so.


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## yodurk

I do have to correct an error in memory. Rose did actually have a meniscus tear, on top of the ACL tear. The MCL did not have a tear. 

The meniscus tears have their scary aspects the more I read about it. On the one hand you can make a full recovery and they appear to heal faster, but a tear means you've worn down a notable portion of the cartilage in the knee. Tearing it multiple times in a career can be very bad. And it can be a career killer if said player is older with alot of mileage on his knees, or is already suffering from knee problems. It is worth noting that Adrian Peterson did NOT have a meniscus tear, and I don't think Rubio or Rondo did either, whereas Derrick, Westbrook, and Shumpert all had meniscus tears.

Given Derrick's youth and non-history of knee trouble, he is likely to have no issues in the foreseeable future related to the meniscus (my interpretation of Cole's statements). If this happened 5-7 years from now it would probably be a different matter when he has another 15,000 NBA minutes on his knees, in which case it might turn into a degenerative condition (bone on bone, no cartilage left).


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## Da Grinch

yodurk said:


> And you have proof that they were "overcompensating" instead of the possibility that there was a more severe underlying issue beyond just an ACL tear that may have required the additional surgeries? If so I'd love to see that. We could assume what you are saying...or we could make the more likely interpretation that their situations were just flat out different from Derrick Rose's. At least alot more different than what guys like Rubio and Shumpert have gone through.


what i do have proof of is bulls doctors clearing rose of far less serious injuries last season and derrick getting re-injured on about a monthly basis .

i'd love to see what proof you have that rose is a liar though?






> You know full well that comment was in reference to Penny as I clearly stated above. Unless you are claiming medicine has not progressed at all in the past 15 years since Penny's physical problems? I surely hope not.
> 
> And it is not just surgical technique, it also the better informed and standardized rehabilitative procedures relative to even 10 years ago. Where even your average joe who tears an ACL has a good chance at 100% recovery if they just follow and attack the rehab process (i.e,. that one that Derrick refuses to complete by training his muscles with true game activity looks like).


i think the major issue is you are holding onto the bulls doctors as if what they say cant be wrong when in fact they have misdiagnosed bulls serious injuries pretty regularly. 

they missed asik's injury 2 years ago and cleared him to play when he had a broken leg.

they cleared deng to play when he had a stress fracture even though he said something was wrong .

he had to see a 2nd opinion(outside of the bulls medical staff) to get his stress fracture revealed .

they cleared him then too.



> There is always going to be risk on some level, but at some point the player has to get out there and let their body readjust to the level of player they were accustomed to pre-injury. You are really willing to go against the experience of guys like Dr. Cole who have seen hundreds of these types of injuries? Nothing is 100% certain but they sure as hell know the probabilities of risk vs. reward. Or we can just ignore the fact that your average pro athlete does not experience re-injury related to the ACL tear, and is still able to return within 9 months or so.


the bottom line is there is a medical staff who have the team's best interest at heart and everyone knows it ...and on the other hand you have a player who has basically played through everything til now , who claims he isn't quite right yet.

to me its an easy decision who to trust in and to believe , he has done everything asked of him and most considered him rugged player before this situation and if its a question of trusting him over a medical staff that to put it mildly is kind of short of healthy bodies right now and has in the past been less than competent .

i pick rose.


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## yodurk

Da Grinch said:


> what i do have proof of is bulls doctors clearing rose of far less serious injuries last season and derrick getting re-injured on about a monthly basis .
> 
> i'd love to see what proof you have that rose is a liar though?


I never once have claimed that Rose is lying about anything. However I have claimed many times that Rose made an idiotic decision to listen to his NON-medical advisers about sitting out all season, rather than made the medically sound decision of Dr. Brian Cole to play for the therapeutic benefits. There IS proof that Rose made this decision a long time ago. Adrian Wojnaroski from Yahoo is very well connected and claims to have a source indicating the decision to sit out all year was made a long time ago. This was around the time that Ric Bucher (the mouthpiece of Team Rose) reported rumblings that Rose's camp was unhappy with the roster and was thinking about sitting out all year. Most Bulls fans didn't give Bucher much credit at the time but turns out he was right. 

There is not any hard evidence for any side of the equation -- if there was, we wouldn't be talking about this at all -- but there is definitely an indication that Rose sat out all season for non-medical reasons, which would be pretty crappy of him if true. Nonetheless I am betting the farm this issue will largely be put in the past if/when Rose is back playing next year and if the Bulls are among the league's better teams again. I for one am willing to move on because frankly it's not worth dwelling on anymore.




> i think the major issue is you are holding onto the bulls doctors as if what they say cant be wrong when in fact they have misdiagnosed bulls serious injuries pretty regularly.


Yikes. I am pretty certain Dr. Cole was not the one who diagnosed any of those injuries you are citing. Those are pretty big assumptions you are making for a highly reputable knee specialist who had little to nothing to do with the recent track record of Bulls injuries. And even if he did, most of those cases involved players choosing to play through injury. Rose would not have been playing through an injury, it is literally the next prescribed step in his rehab. This is standard operating procedure for ACL rehab, not some customized diagnosis and treatment plan thought up by physician X.


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## Da Grinch

yodurk said:


> I never once have claimed that Rose is lying about anything. However I have claimed many times that Rose made an idiotic decision to listen to his NON-medical advisers about sitting out all season, rather than made the medically sound decision of Dr. Brian Cole to play for the therapeutic benefits. There IS proof that Rose made this decision a long time ago. Adrian Wojnaroski from Yahoo is very well connected and claims to have a source indicating the decision to sit out all year was made a long time ago. This was around the time that Ric Bucher (the mouthpiece of Team Rose) reported rumblings that Rose's camp was unhappy with the roster and was thinking about sitting out all year. Most Bulls fans didn't give Bucher much credit at the time but turns out he was right.



actually since rose has only given his ability to play basketball as to why he isn't playing , and you just finished a diatribe as to why that is not true , you are saying he is lying.



> There is not any hard evidence for any side of the equation -- if there was, we wouldn't be talking about this at all -- but there is definitely an indication that Rose sat out all season for non-medical reasons, which would be pretty crappy of him if true. Nonetheless I am betting the farm this issue will largely be put in the past if/when Rose is back playing next year and if the Bulls are among the league's better teams again. I for one am willing to move on because frankly it's not worth dwelling on anymore.


true there is no hard evidence , i go by simple logic and assume it plays a part in his decision , but to state its the major reason accuses Rose of fraud and  habitual lying on the subject.





> Yikes. I am pretty certain Dr. Cole was not the one who diagnosed any of those injuries you are citing. Those are pretty big assumptions you are making for a highly reputable knee specialist who had little to nothing to do with the recent track record of Bulls injuries. And even if he did, most of those cases involved players choosing to play through injury. Rose would not have been playing through an injury, it is literally the next prescribed step in his rehab. This is standard operating procedure for ACL rehab, not some customized diagnosis and treatment plan thought up by physician X.


then who is clearing these guys to play ?

the bulls have him listed as their head physician ...if not him who?

the players choosing to play should have nothing to do with it....after all if rose being cleared to play supposedly means he should play ....so him clearing other guys means the same... doesn't it?


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## giusd

So I have written before (and maybe this is just due to me being some old guy) but I think Rose should come back when Rose thinks his knee is healed and well maybe i am just out of touch.

But i can comment on a few things. "First, medicine has not progressed at all in the past 15 years since Penny's physical problems". In fact, unless i am very mistaken the the tradiation repair for an tear in the ACL or other knee ligaments is pretty much the same procedure that has been done the last 10 years or so. The major advancements were the scope (smaller incissions) and the new grafts but that is not really new. While some new twists on the procedure have been developed over time the basics are pretty much the same. But if someone does this procedure you should comment.

Finally, i think there is another mistake here. A physician does not clear someone to play in competition and now i am pretty sure about this. A physician works with a patient and via a back and forth dialog and a collaborative decussion in the context of the patient physician relationship it is agreed upon when a player is ready. Now Rose was definately cleared to practice but i think it very unlikely that any Orthopod would tell a player "they are cleared to play in an NBA game". It just does not work like that! I am pretty sure only a Rose can make that decission and unless i have missed this i have not seen any think in print that Rose's surgeon said he was cleared to play. Just one man's thoughts.


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## R-Star

giusd said:


> So I have written before (and maybe this is just due to me being some old guy) but I think Rose should come back when Rose thinks his knee is healed and well maybe i am just out of touch.
> 
> But i can comment on a few things. "First, medicine has not progressed at all in the past 15 years since Penny's physical problems". In fact, unless i am very mistaken the the tradiation repair for an tear in the ACL or other knee ligaments is pretty much the same procedure that has been done the last 10 years or so. The major advancements were the scope (smaller incissions) and the new grafts but that is not really new. While some new twists on the procedure have been developed over time the basics are pretty much the same. But if someone does this procedure you should comment.
> 
> Finally, i think there is another mistake here. A physician does not clear someone to play in competition and now i am pretty sure about this. A physician works with a patient and via a back and forth dialog and a collaborative decussion in the context of the patient physician relationship it is agreed upon when a player is ready. Now Rose was definately cleared to practice but i think it very unlikely that any Orthopod would tell a player "they are cleared to play in an NBA game". It just does not work like that! I am pretty sure only a Rose can make that decission and unless i have missed this i have not seen any think in print that Rose's surgeon said he was cleared to play. Just one man's thoughts.


You and a few other posters are absolutely delusional.


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## Firefight

Was that post a joke? I can tell you for a fact, knee surgery had progressed lightyears in the last 15 years. It's progressed in just the last 5 years... 

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## 77AJ

I think it was the safe bet to wait until next season for Rose to come back. If he's not able to rebound from missing a full season, and off season, well he's never going to be ready. Next year will see how it pans out. If Rose starts ballin at an MVP caliber level again and push the Bulls back to the top of the Eastern Conference. How can you fault him for his decision ? I know I sure wont.


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## yodurk

Medical opinions aside...I don't understand why people continue to believe that Derrick sat out _predominantly _because of how he feels. There have been multiple sources close to the Rose camp -- Bucher, Woj, just yesterday it was Stephen A. Smith -- saying that Reggie and Derrick made the decision to sit out months ago, long before a verdict should've been made in any normal recovery process. And those same sources are making the direct connection to Team Rose's opinion of the Bulls roster as playing a significant factor. Stephen A. Smith even goes a step further and says there is major tension between Reggie Rose and the Bulls front office, and that Derrick is "caught in the middle". I can't definitively say what to believe here, but there is alot of smoke coming from the possibility that Reggie/Derrick milked the rehab process as a form of protest. *If true*...that is just a terrible thing...and worse yet, it's clear this Bulls squad was much better than Reggie gave them credit for, and who knows what they could've done if Derrick returned in early March and got to 95% old Derrick by the playoffs. Winning 3 games against the league's best team and winning a playoff series while banged up. Reggie has egg on his face. And I hope Derrick feels awful about letting his brother talk him into that, and comes back with a vengeance next year.


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## Good Hope

I like Derrick Rose. I'll be happy to watch him play. I hope it will be at the level or above what he played at before getting hurt. 

I don't trust what anyone says about what happened this past year, and now that it's over and done with, I don't care, either. 

Just let me see that Derrick is back and ready to play at a superstar level.


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## Da Grinch

> John Paxson says Derrick Rose received unfair criticism for not returning to action this season and believes the Chicago Bulls star will benefit from the work he did on his body during his time away.
> 
> Paxson, the Bulls' executive vice president of basketball operations, told WSCR-AM 670 on Sunday that Rose "took a lot of unfair shots" from critics who felt he should have returned late in the regular season or during the playoffs.
> 
> "It's the way of the world now, the social media, everything that goes on," Paxson said. "Everybody wants to point a finger and blame and accuse and that kind of stuff. And the reality is, Derrick and us, we were all on the same page from the beginning. If he was ready to play mentally and physically, he was going to play. It didn't happen this year."
> Paxson said Rose will continue his rehab work during the offseason and will be an even better player when he returns as a result.
> 
> "There's no question in my mind that the time he spent on his body this past year was the best thing he's ever done because I think he's learned that, to compete in an NBA season and absorb the physical contact that he does, what he's done during this rehab has benefitted him greatly. I think it's going to make him better and stronger.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...go-bulls-derrick-rose-20130527,0,815132.story


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## R-Star

Da Grinch said:


> http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...go-bulls-derrick-rose-20130527,0,815132.story


What the hell are they supposed to say? That they're upset with him?

They're also reporting that they will monitor every single thing he does this offseason. That includes rehab, or lack there of, pick up games, etc. 

That isn't done out of trust obviously.


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## thebizkit69u

I don't even know why GM's bother even giving interviews if they are just going to kiss ass and lie. Being on the same page doesn't mean that one side leaks out stories that hes medically cleared to play. Its just the same old upper management crap we get out of this regime year in and year out. 

The season was a failure, plain and simple. The whole point of the season was about Derrick Rose's recovery, he did not follow his plan the way doctors wanted him to go about it.


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## Firefight

*yawn*

Old News to me. 2013 is over, and so is the DRose story. Everyone has an opinion and think they know what everyone is thinking... 

I'm not mad at Pax...
I'm not mad at Rose...

I'm ready to see next year and move on with a great organization and a great star PG.


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## Da Grinch

thebizkit69u said:


> I don't even know why GM's bother even giving interviews if they are just going to kiss ass and lie. Being on the same page doesn't mean that one side leaks out stories that hes medically cleared to play. Its just the same old upper management crap we get out of this regime year in and year out.
> 
> The season was a failure, plain and simple. The whole point of the season was about Derrick Rose's recovery, he did not follow his plan the way doctors wanted him to go about it.


i wouldn't call the season a failure at all.

they made the 2nd round with in my opinion 9th or 10th seed talent , not bad considering the whole season was a wash from may 2012. there is a lot of merit in that.

that being said.

rose's recovery wasn't about a handful of games he did or did not play but the balance of his career , if i had my way they would have tanked the season and considered the season a success if they drafted in the top 10 and either drafted or used to the pick in trade for a legit #2 option to help the bulls in the long run.

rose may wind up better than ever(increased strength and jumpshot) if that is the case the season was a success no matter how many games they won.


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## thebizkit69u

Da Grinch said:


> i wouldn't call the season a failure at all.


It was a failure. Winning a series in one of the weakest conferences in decades, against a mediocre team like the Nets is no trophy.




> rose's recovery wasn't about a handful of games he did or did not play but the balance of his career , if i had my way they would have tanked the season and considered the season a success if they drafted in the top 10 and either drafted or used to the pick in trade for a legit #2 option to help the bulls in the long run.
> 
> rose may wind up better than ever(increased strength and jumpshot) if that is the case the season was a success no matter how many games they won.



I agree about the draft pick. But, as for Rose's improvement, I guess all I can say is wait and see. Even with all this time off, there really is no guarantee that he wont blow his other knee in the first game of the season.


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## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> It was a failure. Winning a series in one of the weakest conferences in decades, against a mediocre team like the Nets is no trophy.



I accept the premise that the goal of an NBA season is to win the championship, and any year in which that does not occur is a failure, in an abstract sense.

Still, if you ever want to get any enjoyment out of sports in your life, you need to also be able to measure success relative to expectations. In this respect, the Bulls' season was an overwhelming success.

For instance, you predicted the Bulls would be a lottery team this year without Rose. They actually performed much better than that. They were a mid-seed in the playoffs, had a winning record, and spawned two All-Stars. Jimmy Buckets emerged as a starting-caliber NBA wing player. The Bulls ended the Heat streak, stopping them from making history. They ended the Knicks' mini-streak. They won a round in the playoffs after losing Hinrich and Deng, which was just absurd. They stole a game from Miami with this same depleted roster. 

For what should have been a "lost" season with Derrick gone, the Bulls certainly succeeded in giving us a lot more wins and entertaining basketball than one would have thought. So, relative to expectations, it was an immensely successful season. With Derrick out the entire year, an NBA championship (and even much progress toward one) was out of the question. Still, I'm glad the season was played and got a lot of satisfaction out of some of these smaller victories.

So, sure, it was a failure in that there is not another banner hanging from the rafters. I agree with that. However, there were still reasons to enjoy the season and be pleasantly surprised on the character this depleted roster showed over the course of the regular season and playoffs.


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## thebizkit69u

jnrjr79 said:


> For instance, you predicted the Bulls would be a lottery team this year without Rose. They actually performed much better than that. They were a mid-seed in the playoffs, had a winning record, and spawned two All-Stars. Jimmy Buckets emerged as a starting-caliber NBA wing player. The Bulls ended the Heat streak, stopping them from making history. They ended the Knicks' mini-streak. They won a round in the playoffs after losing Hinrich and Deng, which was just absurd. They stole a game from Miami with this same depleted roster.


I still stand by my statement that this is a lottery team, I just din't expect the East to be this shitty. If you look at the Bulls record vs the West, it was 11-19. At the end of the day they overachieved and if you look at how bad the Bulls roster was, you gotta give a ton of credit to Thibs. 



> For what should have been a "lost" season with Derrick gone, the Bulls certainly succeeded in giving us a lot more wins and entertaining basketball than one would have thought. So, relative to expectations, it was an immensely successful season. With Derrick out the entire year, an NBA championship (and even much progress toward one) was out of the question. Still, I'm glad the season was played and got a lot of satisfaction out of some of these smaller victories.


Pointless entertainment sure, but did the Bulls get any closer to winning a title, no. Even in a lost season, you gotta show signs of being able to get over a hump, they showed no signs that they can compete with Miami. Even when Rose was 100% healthy, Miami beat them easily.


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## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> I still stand by my statement that this is a lottery team, I just din't expect the East to be this shitty.


It is _per se_ not a lottery team, in that it qualified for the playoffs. This is not debatable. 

Further, not only did they make the playoffs (as a #5 seed, rather than barely qualifying), they _won a goddamned series_.

Doubling down on your assessment just makes it look worse.

Hell, the Bulls' record would've been good enough to qualify for the playoffs in the Western Conference, so even in your fantasyland where we ignore the existence of the East, your position still fails on its face.




> At the end of the day they overachieved and if you look at how bad the Bulls roster was, you gotta give a ton of credit to Thibs.


That was the point of my post. The Bulls exceeded expectations, making it a more satisfying season that one would've thought at the outset if you knew Derrick wasn't returning.



> Pointless entertainment sure, but did the Bulls get any closer to winning a title, no. Even in a lost season, you gotta show signs of being able to get over a hump, they showed no signs that they can compete with Miami. Even when Rose was 100% healthy, Miami beat them easily.


You're losing track of yourself. You first complain about "no signs" happening this year, but then cite evidence from before this year to prove the assertion. It's incoherent.

Second, it's utterly wrong to view it as "pointless entertainment." Entertainment is the point itself.

The emergence of Jimmy Buckets this season, if nothing else, makes them "closer to winning a title" than they were before.


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## thebizkit69u

jnrjr79 said:


> t is _per se_ not a lottery team, in that it qualified for the playoffs. This is not debatable.
> 
> Further, not only did they make the playoffs (as a #5 seed, rather than barely qualifying), they _won a goddamned series_.
> 
> Doubling down on your assessment just makes it look worse.


This is a team with lottery talent, they played just mediocre enough to not be a lottery team. My hats off to Thibs, but it doesn't change my opinion that this team was bad. 



> Hell, the Bulls' record would've been good enough to qualify for the playoffs in the Western Conference, so even in your fantasyland where we ignore the existence of the East, your position still fails on its face.


Dude they were well bellow .500 against the West, I highly doubt they would have won 45 games playing in the West. 




> That was the point of my post. The Bulls exceeded expectations, making it a more satisfying season that one would've thought at the outset if you knew Derrick wasn't returning.


Then you are easily satisfied. 



> Second, it's utterly wrong to view it as "pointless entertainment." Entertainment is the point itself.
> 
> The emergence of Jimmy Buckets this season, if nothing else, makes them "closer to winning a title" than they were before.


There are 6 banners hanging at the UC, winning titles is the POINT. 

All Jimmy proved this season was that he's not terrible. Hes a decent player who hasn't proven that he can start on a title contending team. I find it funny that buckets is the nickname of a player who only scored 8 ppg. I like his floor as a backup 2/3, but don't expect this guy to give you SIGNIFICANTLY more than what hes already given us.


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## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> This is a team with lottery talent, they played just mediocre enough to not be a lottery team. My hats off to Thibs, but it doesn't change my opinion that this team was bad.


This is hilariously inaccurate. A team with 2 All-Stars and Boozer is "lottery talent," akin to the Bobcats? Keep digging.



> There are 6 banners hanging at the UC, winning titles is the POINT.


Which I have acknowledged repeatedly. I'm not sure what you're arguing against. As a sports fan, though, if the only seasons you can enjoy are the seasons in which titles are won, and the others bring you only misery, then you are a masochist.



> All Jimmy proved this season was that he's not terrible. Hes a decent player who hasn't proven that he can start on a title contending team. I find it funny that buckets is the nickname of a player who only scored 8 ppg. I like his floor as a backup 2/3, but don't expect this guy to give you SIGNIFICANTLY more than what hes already given us.



He proved more than that, and frankly, anyone paying attention would share that assessment.

Indeed, if nothing else, Jimmy demonstrated that Luol can be moved in a deal to help improve this team, or the Bulls can be more comfortable not re-signing him at the end of this season if it helps with the future plan. That in and of itself is huge.


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## thebizkit69u

jnrjr79 said:


> This is hilariously inaccurate. A team with 2 All-Stars and Boozer is "lottery talent," akin to the Bobcats? Keep digging.


2 Allstars lol. Please, you act like this is the be all end all when rating how good a player is. Jamaal Magloire, B.J. Armstrong and James Donaldson were all All-Stars. 

NATE ROBINSON was the best player on the Bulls for a bunch of games! They had one of the worst FG% in the entire NBA, they had the 3rd worse PPG in the NBA, just ahead of Wizards and 76r's. Mediocre +-, had a worse rebounding year than the previous couple of years and their supposed best player shot 42%. The only thing they did well was their defense, 9th in opponent FG% (behind the wizards and just above the clippers), yet they did held opponents to 93ppg which is 3rd best in the NBA. 

You look at the roster they put out there at times, it was atrocious! Like I said before, this is the product of Thibs coaching. Take him away and this team wins 30 games max. 



> He proved more than that, and frankly, anyone paying attention would share that assessment.
> 
> Indeed, if nothing else, Jimmy demonstrated that Luol can be moved in a deal to help improve this team, or the Bulls can be more comfortable not re-signing him at the end of this season if it helps with the future plan. That in and of itself is huge.


Depends on what you are doing with Butler after said trade. Hes not a starter on a title contending team, not yet.


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## jnrjr79

thebizkit69u said:


> 2 Allstars lol. Please, you act like this is the be all end all when rating how good a player is. Jamaal Magloire, B.J. Armstrong and James Donaldson were all All-Stars.



So what? These players are better than those players, and you know it. The dishonesty, though, is quite amusing.

This team is not a lottery team. It did not go into the lottery. It won 45 games. Get over it already. It's embarrassing watching the contortions you're going through to try to save face after being flat wrong. Just say "Well, this team turned out to be better than I thought it was, but I still don't think it can compete for a championship." At least then you could be critical of the path the team is on while still being honest.




> NATE ROBINSON was the best player on the Bulls for a bunch of games! They had one of the worst FG% in the entire NBA, they had the 3rd worse PPG in the NBA, just ahead of Wizards and 76r's. Mediocre +-, had a worse rebounding year than the previous couple of years and their supposed best player shot 42%. The only thing they did well was their defense, 9th in opponent FG% (behind the wizards and just above the clippers), yet they did held opponents to 93ppg which is 3rd best in the NBA.


Wake me when you say something relevant. The Bulls without Rose were exceptional on defense and poor on offense? Who knew!?!?

Still not a lottery team.



> You look at the roster they put out there at times, it was atrocious! Like I said before, this is the product of Thibs coaching. Take him away and this team wins 30 games max.


Hooray for moving the goalposts.

So now you want to live in a fantasyland where the Eastern Conference doesn't exist AND Thibs doesn't coach the Bulls? Ok.

If the Bulls were the Bobcats, they would suck. But they're not. So let's get back to reality.



> Depends on what you are doing with Butler after said trade. Hes not a starter on a title contending team, not yet.


The notion that Butler couldn't be a starting wing on a title contending team is silly.

Mario Chalmers started on an NBA championship team last year. 

The undead corpse of Jason Kidd shooting all of 36% started for the NBA champion in 2011.

Derrick Fisher and Ron Artest started for the NBA champions in 2009 and 2010.

Kendrick Perkins started for the NBA champions in 2008

Etc., etc., etc. The idea that Butler would somehow be grossly out of place starting on a championship team has no merit. Obviously, he hasn't shown he's a _star _player, but he's demonstrated enough to be a _starter_.


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## Dornado

I thought for sure bizkit would drop the "Lottery" bullshit at a certain point... apparently, not so much. Calling a team that won 45 games despite dealing with a fair number of injuries a "lottery" type team takes some serious imagination. Or stubbornness.


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## Da Grinch

You can't have both ways

They can't be a " lottery talent" and finish as a 5th see with 45 wins and be a failure

If the goal was to win games winning above your talent level is always a success

That being said it can certainly be questioned how bad the bulls management wants to win a title. They haven't advanced themselves in their title quest if anything they have gone in the other direction

Omer asik was a loss in both asset and productivity

It hasn't been made up nor is it likely be made up in the draft of free agency

Teague and the rest of the bench mob did well but with rose back they will be in more focused roles their games don't appear to mesh with that. 

Robinson will need to be a much better defender because his offense won't be such a dire need and at 5'9 it's a bit of quandary he's better as a scorer but he's short to be consistent in that role if he's brought back


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