# EuroHype........oh my god I hate it!! Just an example



## Brazilian_Nuts (Jun 26, 2003)

Geezzz......this EuroHype think is getting out of control when scouts and Gms will find out. A lot of players from Europe are so over hyped, first Milicic, than Lampe, Pietrus, Pavlovic, Diaw, Sofoclis.........they might even turn out to be good players .....but it seems to them that ever euro will turn out to be like Nowitzky....
Lampe averaged just 2 points in Real Madri......come on
Just like Jason Kapono said he should have dropped out of UCLA on his freshman year moved to croatia grown a beard and changed his name to Jason Kaponovich and after 2 years he would a lottery pick with a huge upside....

Just look at this example :

The first guy is 6-10 280 pounds PF 

The Second guy is is 6-9 310 pounds PF

The first one is from Texas

The second one is from Greece

The first one is expected to be a 2nd round pick

The second one is expected to go in the top 20 ....and was once considered a top 10

They are both the same age

And i believe they have a similar game

U probably know that the first one is Kendrick Perkins

And the second one is Sofoclis Schortsanitis

The difference that makes the second one go in the top 20 and the first one in the second round is where they were born to me. 


Just imagine the opposite a 18 years old 6-10 280 pounds PF who plays agressively down low, has a softch touch around the basket, has a power game and has a strong work ethic (source: nbadraft.net) ......................who is from Serbia named Kendric Perklimovich..... i bet he would go top 15 in this year draft.....but since he is from Texas he is going on the second round.


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## TMOD (Oct 12, 2002)

He (Perkins) was projected to go top 10 when he was a junior in high school. He didn't improve much, was out of shape, and didn't show a lot of passion. Sofoklis is more athletic, so he probably has more potential. Scouts have had ample time to see all the faults in Perkins' game and when they're used to seeing the great prospects of the past, he seems to fall short. That is my opinion, at least.


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## theSayHeyKid (May 13, 2003)

The difference is that Perkins is playing against boys, while Shortsanidis is playing against pros. You can't underestimate the value of playing high quality professional basketball for a few years before joining the NBA. Perkins also didn't work out for as many teams because he was hesitant about staying in the draft and was paying his own way to his workouts. Therefore, he didn't create the opportunity to build some hype for himself.
Jason Kapono may have a point, but as Tony Kornheiser pointed out, Kaponovitch would be a lottery pick until teams saw how slow he was in the individual workouts.
The fact is, Milicic, Lampe, and Shortsanidis have huge potential, and that is a real value when it comes to the draft.


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## Brazilian_Nuts (Jun 26, 2003)

Perkins is believed to have a strong work ethic
source: nbadraft.net 
and being out of shape right now is not a problem since the Draft is based on potential........
And as 18 he has a lot of time to develop
that´s what i think


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Brazilian_Nuts</b>!
> Geezzz......this EuroHype think is getting out of control when scouts and Gms will find out. A lot of players from Europe are so over hyped, first Milicic, than Lampe, Pietrus, Pavlovic, Diaw, Sofoclis.........they might even turn out to be good players .....but it seems to them that ever euro will turn out to be like Nowitzky....
> Lampe averaged just 2 points in Real Madri......come on
> Just like Jason Kapono said he should have dropped out of UCLA on his freshman year moved to croatia grown a beard and changed his name to Jason Kaponovich and after 2 years he would a lottery pick with a huge upside....
> ...


I agree with alot of this,this hype has gotten ridiculous. 

Chris Bosh is criticized for having a perimeter game and maybe alittle soft. Millicic is being praised for being tall and having a perimter game. The double standard is obvious. A ton of these Euro's are gonna be busts but why do we always mention the succceses. Skita, Nachbar, and Welch all did nothing and people will make the same mistakes this year. Darko won't be as good as Melo. Lampf is another bust waiting to happen. 

Every tall Euro who can hit a 15 footer becomes a hot prospect but when the American bigs can hit those same shots their criticized for playing outside when they should be downlow.


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## TMOD (Oct 12, 2002)

> Chris Bosh is criticized for having a perimeter game and maybe alittle soft. Millicic is being praised for being tall and having a perimter game. The double standard is obvious. A ton of these Euro's are gonna be busts but why do we always mention the succceses. Skita, Nachbar, and Welch all did nothing and people will make the same mistakes this year. Darko won't be as good as Melo. Lampf is another bust waiting to happen.
> 
> Every tall Euro who can hit a 15 footer becomes a hot prospect but when the American bigs can hit those same shots their criticized for playing outside when they should be downlow.


 That post seemed rather pro-american, I'm hoping you were joking. In any case, nobody criticized Bosh for being able to shoot from the perimeter, it is more an inability to compete down low in the pros. Darko is better inside, and outside, and tougher. It isn't a double standard - but if you want to talk about double standards I think that Schortsianitis versus Perkins and Lang would be more appropriate...


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## RD (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Brazilian_Nuts</b>!
> 
> and being out of shape right now is not a problem since the Draft is based on potential........


Being out of shape right now IS a problem. If you aren't in shape, you won't reach your full talent level. That certainly is a problem. Im not necessarily pointing at Perkins, but being out of shape is a problem for whoever it might apply to.

As for the foreign hype ... It's a crock. NBA teams are not going to take a foreign guy just cuz he's foreign. It creates intrigue and they bring them in and then judge how good they are. A team isnt going to draft the foreign guy if he flops in their workout. If a foreign guy goes over an american player its because the team thinks he is better. Let's not hate on the Euro's cuz they actually stress basketball fundamentals. Using Lampe as an example, even though some compare him to Dirk, just about everyone says he is a much less talented version. I havent seen too many saying he'll develop into a player of Dirk's talent level, just that he is a Dirk type of player. NBA organizations, well maybe aside from the Clippers, are not naive enough just to hear the hype and draft a foreign guy on that alone.


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## TMOD (Oct 12, 2002)

> Being out of shape right now IS a problem. If you aren't in shape, you won't reach your full talent level. That certainly is a problem. Im not necessarily pointing at Perkins, but being out of shape is a problem for whoever it might apply to.
> 
> As for the foreign hype ... It's a crock. NBA teams are not going to take a foreign guy just cuz he's foreign. It creates intrigue and they bring them in and then judge how good they are. A team isnt going to draft the foreign guy if he flops in their workout. If a foreign guy goes over an american player its because the team thinks he is better. Let's not hate on the Euro's cuz they actually stress basketball fundamentals. Using Lampe as an example, even though some compare him to Dirk, just about everyone says he is a much less talented version. I havent seen too many saying he'll develop into a player of Dirk's talent level, just that he is a Dirk type of player. NBA organizations, well maybe aside from the Clippers, are not naive enough just to hear the hype and draft a foreign guy on that alone.


Great post.


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## cheezdoodle (May 25, 2003)

You are crazy. Sofoklis is a rock and has been playing in the 2nd or 3rd best league in the WORLD. He put up a bunch of 15 and 20 point games playing against some of the toughest guys in Europe. Perkins was playing against scrawny kids in puberty who just happy to go to Mcdonalds after the game. 

You can make a much stronger case then the particular one you made. How about Barbosa going over some real proven NCAA point guards (like Troy Bell)? Can anyone really make an accurate prediction about what kind of career he will have?


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## RD (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: Re: EuroHype........oh my god I hate it!! Just an example*



> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree with alot of this,this hype has gotten ridiculous.
> ...


There is absolutely no double standard when comparing Bosh and Milicic.

Bosh is criticized for his toughness in the post because of his size. The kid is unbelievably skinny, and his shoulders are not very broad, which tends to mean that he likely wont fill out a great deal more. That is the deal with him.

Milicic on the other hand is a year younger, but already packs a sturdy 25 more lbs than Bosh. He can play outside, but he also has the size to play inside as well. 

Also Darko supposedly is a much better ball handler, which gives him yet another edge over Bosh. Bosh has the body of a 3, but the game of a 4. If he had the ball handling to play the 3 spot, he might actually be rated a bit higher because they he has the ability to play 2 spots. But he is strictly a 4 because of a lack of standout ball handling(he's actually solid for a 4, but projecting to the 3 is a whole different thing).


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

i don't think asking this question is hating or xenophobic...i think there is slight favoritism right now, but that happens with anything new and the game expanding is a great thing...Things will even out as the years go by and we won't have these conversations so much.


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## Brazilian_Nuts (Jun 26, 2003)

Hey have u guys noticed a guy named Skita that plays for the Nuggets ......he is supposed to be a 3 year project .......but he sucks right now......and he probably sucked in last years workouts.......or he was awesome in the workouts and after he was drafted he forgot how to play basketball........


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## RD (Jun 10, 2002)

I happen to agree with the previous poster about saying Sofoklis is more highly sought after because he has shown more ability.

Perkins topped out as a junior in HS and didnt expand his game like most thought he would. He does not have that standout athleticism or agility down low to project him high. 

Sofoklis has played professionaly and shown the willingness to bang against grown men and the fearlessness and explosion to go up and bang on opponents. Perkins hasnt shown that type of aggression or explosion on the block. He's big and strong, but he doesnt get off the floor quick enough to pack that extra punch to go with his frame. It's kind of like Shaq and Priest Lauderdale ... Shaq is huge, but he can explode at the bucket and throw it down on anyone. Priest is actually bigger, but doesn't have that explosive ability to throw down like that. Obviously Shaq to Priest is comparing extremes - Im only using that to illustrate my point. Im not saying Sofoklis is Shaq and Perkins is Lauderdale. Im just saying that even though they might have similar frames at similar ages, Sofoklis has that attitude and ability to get up and explode on opponents better than Perkins does. Thats why he's rated higher.


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## TMOD (Oct 12, 2002)

> Hey have u guys noticed a guy named Skita that plays for the Nuggets ......he is supposed to be a 3 year project .......but he sucks right now......and he probably sucked in last years workouts.......or he was awesome in the workouts and after he was drafted he forgot how to play basketball........


 What is your point? You're right; Skita is at least a three year project. He was the youngest player in the NBA last season. Were the majority of pro players, mainly the high schoolers, good at his age? No they weren't...and he still shows that potential when he is on the court. No one said he was experienced or NBA ready.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TMOD</b>!
> That post seemed rather pro-american, I'm hoping you were joking. In any case, nobody criticized Bosh for being able to shoot from the perimeter, it is more an inability to compete down low in the pros. Darko is better inside, and outside, and tougher. It isn't a double standard - but if you want to talk about double standards I think that Schortsianitis versus Perkins and Lang would be more appropriate...


I am pro American. I won't deny that. But thats not essential to what I'm saying. Bosh is often criticized for having perimeter skills. He lead the Acc in fg percentage and was tops in shot blocks that says he has inside game. But Darko is lauded for those same attributes. He takes alot of jumpers and his toughness can't be measured until he plays against OUR big players. He has alot of Kukoc in his game the next Magic Johnson if you remember. The Baby Shaq/Perkins comparison is accurate also. 

Ginobilli wouldn't be lauded as much either had he been forced to start and play a bigger role. His stats weren't that great but filling a role magnified just how effective a player he was. I like his game he's is going to be a solid pro,athletic and a very smart player manages game situations well.


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## cheezdoodle (May 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Brazilian_Nuts</b>!
> Hey have u guys noticed a guy named Skita that plays for the Nuggets ......he is supposed to be a 3 year project .......but he sucks right now......and he probably sucked in last years workouts.......or he was awesome in the workouts and after he was drafted he forgot how to play basketball........



Yeah I remember him. Played in the 80's, right? I remember Fat Lever threw him an alley oop and he tripped over his shoe laces trying to dunk it. What a clown he was that guy from Georgia Tech. 

You remember that one dork from Germany way back then that was drafted by the Bucks as the 9th pick? He sucked too. Averaged like 8 points and 3 rebounds his rookie season. What a waste of a pick. 

damn Euros keepin us down.


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## Brazilian_Nuts (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by *cheezdoodle*
> You can make a much stronger case then the particular one you made. How about Barbosa going over some real proven NCAA point guards (like Troy Bell)? Can anyone really make an accurate prediction about what kind of career he will have?


I have seen barbosa play a lot since I´m Brazilian, he is a very agressive player, not such of a playmaker, very gifted physically, who is a decent defender. He is more like a Arenas kind of player.
A scorer PG.......
He played in Brazilian National championship wich isn´t such a bad league, so he was playing against man, not kids, and averaging 28 points a game.......
for me he will be a very good nba player
and he is my sleeper for this draft


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## TMOD (Oct 12, 2002)

> I am pro American. I won't deny that. But thats not essential to what I'm saying. Bosh is often criticized for having perimeter skills. He lead the Acc in fg percentage and was tops in shot blocks that says he has inside game. But Darko is lauded for those same attributes. He takes alot of jumpers and his toughness can't be measured until he plays against OUR big players. He has alot of Kukoc in his game the next Magic Johnson if you remember. The Baby Shaq/Perkins comparison is accurate also.


 Bosh hasn't played against OUR big guys yet either. I don't know how much his shotblocking or field goals point to inside game either, in his case. I don't think he is criticized for his perimiter game - he is criticized for being too perimeter oriented, which is a bad sign in college. The guys Darko plays against are plenty tough - and sure as hell tougher than those that Bosh plays against. We KNOW that Bosh doesn't play tough against his inferior comp, compared to Darko's, and Darko does play tough against his competition. Those are 30 year old men. RD responded perfectly to the Bosh - Milicic statement, too.


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## RD (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TMOD</b>!
> Bosh hasn't played against OUR big guys yet either. I don't know how much his shotblocking or field goals point to inside game either, in his case. I don't think he is criticized for his perimiter game - he is criticized for being too perimeter oriented, which is a bad sign in college.


Exactly. I have yet to see anyone criticize Bosh for having a perimeter game. In fact, it is one of the things people point out when talking about why Bosh is a good player.

What people do criticize is that he is going to be a PF in the NBA, but his body is seriously underdeveloped, and his body structure is such that it does not look like he will be able to add a great deal of weight/strength to his frame. If he doesnt get bigger and stronger, he wont be sturdy enough to bang on the block on defense for 35 minutes a game. And he doesnt have the all around skills to play on the perimeter. His body is that of a perimeter player, but his game and skills are that of strictly a PF. That's not a great combination. 

His body is the big question right now. If Bosh were 6'11 240, but still played outside all the time, I think he would be thought of higher because he would at least have the body to play inside. As it stands right now, his lack of bulk puts him at a pretty big disadvantage. Can he overcome it? That is very possible, but that is a question nonetheless. 

Darko has the skill advantage and the size advantage. He is the clearcut better prospect. There is no comparison and certainly no double standard.


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## Brazilian_Nuts (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by *Tmod*
> What is your point? You're right; Skita is at least a three year project. He was the youngest player in the NBA last season. Were the majority of pro players, mainly the high schoolers, good at his age? No they weren't...and he still shows that potential when he is on the court. No one said he was experienced or NBA ready.


U will see where i made my point ....
some guy said 



> Originally posted by *RD*
> 
> NBA teams are not going to take a foreign guy just cuz he's foreign. It creates intrigue and they bring them in and then judge how good they are. A team isnt going to draft the foreign guy if he flops in their workout


and i said .....



> Originally posted by *RD*
> Hey have u guys noticed a guy named Skita that plays for the Nuggets ......he is supposed to be a 3 year project .......but he sucks right now......and he probably sucked in last years workouts.......or he was awesome in the workouts and after he was drafted he forgot how to play basketball........


did u get it?


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## TMOD (Oct 12, 2002)

I think you missed my point...


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TMOD</b>!
> Bosh hasn't played against OUR big guys yet either. I don't know how much his shotblocking or field goals point to inside game either, in his case. I don't think he is criticized for his perimiter game - he is criticized for being too perimeter oriented, which is a bad sign in college. The guys Darko plays against are plenty tough - and sure as hell tougher than those that Bosh plays against. We KNOW that Bosh doesn't play tough against his inferior comp, compared to Darko's, and Darko does play tough against his competition. Those are 30 year old men. RD responded perfectly to the Bosh - Milicic statement, too.


Listen I'm really not championing Bosh as much as I'm making a point. Darko's toughness is very questionable we'll see too call him this tough guy is wrong sure he's played against grown men but when playing the tournament here Bosh was the MVP of the Global Games not Darko. Larry Brown said tonight Darko isn't much of a defender or rebounder. Larry Brown talked about Darko as being a project when pressed about how much he could contribute next year. That should tell you something. There's alot of Kukoc in Darko's game a whole lot. 

Bosh did average 10 rebs per game playing in the ACC. Again he lead in blks and fg percentage which suggest he was playing inside a whole lot. Now you're making the same idiotic argument using his versatility as a weakness. I heard the same things tonight on Espn. Darko's the great mystery and they'll be sorry for not taking the other college guy who WON the title in Melo. 

I think Bosh and Darko are just about equal as projects with bosh maybe having more upside there's alot of players Skita, Nachbar, Welch and others who' played against grown men and didn't and may not amount to much is all I'm saying. Just like there are American busts there will be a large number of Euro Busts. And Darko's not obvious to be great here because he has versatility Kukoc has versatility also and can't bust a grape with his soft behind.


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## RD (Jun 10, 2002)

Even I dont know what your trying to say brazilian.

You admit Skita was a 3 year project, so what does him struggling last year have to do with anything?

He has talent, but is very young and has very little experience. In workouts he blew people away with his shooting stroke, agility, and size. But they knew it would take awhile for him to become a consistent basketball player. He's like a HSer, except evne less experience(he didnt even play much his last year overseas cuz he was so young) and he was adjusting to a new country.

Skita pretty much did what the Nuggets expected of him. 

Denver did not draft him solely because he was from Europe. They brought him in for workouts and fell in love with his talent. That is why the drafted him. Im still not sure exactly what you're trying to say, but if its what I think you're saying, all you're doing is proving exactly what I said true. The hype can create intrigue and cause you to work the player out. Denver did and Skita blew them away in the workout. They drafted him because of that, not just because of the hype. Had Denver drafted Skita without EVER seeing him play, then they would have drafted him on hype alone. But that was not the case in the slightest.


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## TMOD (Oct 12, 2002)

Have you seen both Bosh and Darko play? Versatility is not Chris Bosh's weakness - he is NOT a good inside player. That is plainly obvious watching Georgia Tech. Darko is much more skilled inside and out, along with his superior size. It comes down to that. Darko is not Toni Kukoc, either. Nothing alike, really. I think you're reading too much into certain things - like Bosh's numbers, the Global Games MVP, and the former comparison to Kukoc (it wasn't as bad when Darko was young...). Darko is no mystery - Many scouts have seen Darko play a dozen times, or more. He is only a mystery to you...


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## RD (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TMOD</b>!
> Darko is no mystery - Many scouts have seen Darko play a dozen times, or more. He is only a mystery to you...



Very good point. All of these scouts have seen Darko a ton, and have been present at his workouts. Darko is no mystery at all to NBA personnel. They know how good he is.

He is a mystery to the public because we live in the US and werent priviliged to see him overseas and we do not have access to seeing workouts. Darko has blown away everyone who as seen him. 

Does that mean he is a lock to be a star? Certainly not. But, we dont know who will be busts and who will be stars right now. But NBA people are obviously much more sold on Darko, as he's been #2 for quite some time now, and Bosh isnt even viewed on the same level as the #3 player, Carmelo Anthony.


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## Brazilian_Nuts (Jun 26, 2003)

> Orinally posted by RD
> Even I dont know what your trying to say brazilian.You admit Skita was a 3 year project, so what does him struggling last year have to do with anything?
> 
> He has talent, but is very young and has very little experience. In workouts he blew people away with his shooting stroke, agility, and size. But they knew it would take awhile for him to become a consistent basketball player. He's like a HSer, except evne less experience(he didnt even play much his last year overseas cuz he was so young) and he was adjusting to a new country.
> ...


I give up.....on making my point .....maybe its my english that is not so good....but anyway i tryed .....sorry if I could not make my self clear........


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TMOD</b>!
> Have you seen both Bosh and Darko play? Versatility is not Chris Bosh's weakness - he is NOT a good inside player. That is plainly obvious watching Georgia Tech. Darko is much more skilled inside and out, along with his superior size. It comes down to that. Darko is not Toni Kukoc, either. Nothing alike, really. I think you're reading too much into certain things - like Bosh's numbers, the Global Games MVP, and the former comparison to Kukoc (it wasn't as bad when Darko was young...). Darko is no mystery - Many scouts have seen Darko play a dozen times, or more. He is only a mystery to you...


Darko only advantage is size thats it. He's no more athletic has no more of a shooting stroke nothing just the size. But again the knock is there with Bosh limited inside game. Next year when Darko's shooting three's hanging out there like Okur than we'll talk about his bruising inside game. He's gonna get killed in practice by Wallace. Scouts miss on players all the time do we have to recount on the hype players get whom don't pan out. Darko's has the buzz is all I'm saying by playing overseas's. Melo's the better pick and Bosh is nearly just as good an option. Larry brown the man's future coach calls Darko's a project but I see you don't mention that. He said Darko would probably come off the bench at the pf spot. 


I didn't call Skita a project so what are you saying that wasn't the Buzz he was supposed to have this great cross over and he was supposed to be the next Gasol who isn't that great himself. Skita was supposed to be a real player last year not time to get revisionist here.


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## TMOD (Oct 12, 2002)

I don't really understand your what you are talking about with Skita there, he was called a project the night he was drafted by Kiki himself...

I really don't think you understand the difference between Bosh and Darko. Where do you get the idea that Darko shoots threes like Okur? Also, I don't mention Larry Brown because he was terrible as a general manager, and I seriously doubt he has seen as much of Darko as the rest of the league has. The difference between Darko and Bosh isn't just size as you like to portray it...


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## TMOD (Oct 12, 2002)

Brazilian_Nuts...make your point again, your english is fine - we probably just misinterpreted it.


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## RD (Jun 10, 2002)

Yeah, your english seems fine, maybe its just late and we're having problems. What I took from your post was that you were implying that Skita was drafted by Denver just on hype that he was a Euro. And I disagree, because he went in and had great workouts with teams and thats why he was drafted where he was. He was just too raw to make an immediate impact, and teams knew that.

Back to the Darko/Bosh comparison. Darko has much more than just a size advantage, though that is one of the big things he does have on Bosh.

All of us that are talking about Darko only go from what NBA people say and what the 'experts' say. None of us have seen DArko obviously, so we hvae to go by that. And every single person that has seen him raves about him and every one says that he is better than bosh in just about every area. Some people are just too stubborn to realize it. They refuse to believe what Darko can do because they havent seen him play, but they form their own opinion that he cant do this or that. Scouts are wrong all the time, or there would never be busts. But every single person that sees Darko raves about him and all of them would take Darko over Bosh. There is no reason to try and claim him and Bosh are equal considering that.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

I don't know why you would assume Darko is just going to stand around shooting threes. He hasn't been allowed to shoot threes in the Yugoslavian league because he is supposed to play inside. All the scouts who have seen him play have said that he is very tough and likes to fight for position in the paint. This is him at 17 playing against men. What reason do you have to worry about his toughness when the people who have seen him play consider it a strong point?

It's true that most people haven't seen these international players play. But that doesn't mean you can xenophobically invent flaws for them. Scouts have been watching Darko since he was 14. This isn't some mystery man of a questionable nature. They don't just pick any random young European player to be the consensus number two pick.

Some people are hypocritical about international players, saying they're overrated because few have seen them play. But these ignorant people haven't seen them play either, and are no more qualified to evaluate them than the people they are arguing with. You might be reluctant to have faith in these international prospects, but don't pretend that you know anything about them.


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## Sed (Apr 29, 2003)

Looking at Sofocles, he didn't only compete at the men's level.. he also dominated guys his age at the Euro championships. And I hope he'll play at the Junior WC in Greece, so he can open up a can of whoop *** on the American big guys.

Further more, scouts like Tony Ronzone know what they're doing. If they rate a prospect THAT good, he won't be a bust.
As described he has a great and athletic body (wingspan, reasonable vert, pretty bulky, good speed) + he has a great technique on his shot. He can stroke it very well..

His inside game is highly advanced. The big plus of playing against older and more experienced men (especially americans and yugo's) is that they know the tricks of the inside game. So as a young guy you have to bring the whole package to score on them. And be ready to take the mean hit or the low elbow in the back. This means he will be more prepared to take on the inside guys in the NBA. (We've all talked about how tough he is, let me tell you this; the older the players, the tougher they'll be on a young kid that scores on them...)


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## Chef (Nov 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Brazilian_Nuts</b>!
> Geezzz......this EuroHype think is getting out of control when scouts and Gms will find out. A lot of players from Europe are so over hyped, first Milicic, than Lampe, Pietrus, Pavlovic, Diaw, Sofoclis.........they might even turn out to be good players .....but it seems to them that ever euro will turn out to be like Nowitzky....
> Lampe averaged just 2 points in Real Madri......come on
> Just like Jason Kapono said he should have dropped out of UCLA on his freshman year moved to croatia grown a beard and changed his name to Jason Kaponovich and after 2 years he would a lottery pick with a huge upside....
> ...


Have you seen all those players??? Probably not, so shut up your mouth and let the scouts work. Ok?

Also you talk about European hype and not South American one?? :uhoh:


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## starvydas (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> Darko only advantage is size thats it. He's no more athletic has no more of a shooting stroke nothing just the size. But again the knock is there with Bosh limited inside game. Next year when Darko's shooting three's hanging out there like Okur than we'll talk about his bruising inside game. He's gonna get killed in practice by Wallace. Scouts miss on players all the time do we have to recount on the hype players get whom don't pan out. Darko's has the buzz is all I'm saying by playing overseas's. Melo's the better pick and Bosh is nearly just as good an option. Larry brown the man's future coach calls Darko's a project but I see you don't mention that. He said Darko would probably come off the bench at the pf spot.
> ...


Jazzy do you mind commenting on players you have actually seen play? Your comparisons are so stupid it's not even funny replying to them.
First Darko is nothing like Kukoc. Kukoc is a SF/SG while Darko is a post player. That alone proves you wrong. Kukoc is a much better passer and long distance shooter (i.e. his role) while Darko's game is about beating his man inside. He also averages 2bpg, something Kukoc could only dream of, even when he was playing in Europe.



> Next year when Darko's shooting three's hanging out there like Okur


Bull**** again. Even in Europe where the 3pt line is a lot closer than in the NBA Darko did not shoot threes. He shot 5 and made 3 in 18 games in the European Cup.



> I didn't call Skita a project so what are you saying that wasn't the Buzz he was supposed to have this great cross over and he was supposed to be the next Gasol who isn't that great himself. Skita was supposed to be a real player last year not time to get revisionist here.


Skita was the youngest player in the L last year. How can you not call him a project? Even his GM said that. You're twisting facts so that they can fit your bias.



> Gasol who isn't that great himself


You really do hate Euros don't you? You sound very scornful and xenophobic jazzy.


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## starvydas (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Brazilian_Nuts</b>!
> 
> 
> I have seen barbosa play a lot since I´m Brazilian, he is a very agressive player, not such of a playmaker, very gifted physically, who is a decent defender. He is more like a Arenas kind of player.
> ...


You're so right Euros are so overhyped but this was an unbiased, objective report  

Dude what's wrong with you?


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## wichtelmann (Jun 12, 2003)

> You remember that one dork from Germany way back then that was drafted by the Bucks as the 9th pick? He sucked too. Averaged like 8 points and 3 rebounds his rookie season. What a waste of a pick.


who the hell are you talking about?????


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## Zalgirinis (Feb 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Brazilian_Nuts</b>!
> Geezzz......this EuroHype think is getting out of control when scouts and Gms will find out. A lot of players from Europe are so over hyped, first Milicic, than Lampe, Pietrus, Pavlovic, Diaw, Sofoclis.........they might even turn out to be good players .....but it seems to them that ever euro will turn out to be like Nowitzky....
> Lampe averaged just 2 points in Real Madri......come on


I'm from Europe and I agree that sometimes that EuroHype comes out of control. It seems that clubs must take every European who is more than 205 cm (dont know how many is it in inches, but something about Kirilenko height) and expect that hes new Nowitcky, I think its crazy. But in other way, there are so many mediocre players in NBA, so why dont give Euro boy a chance. And one more fact, if one club will take that skinny white boy and in time it becomes new Nowitcky, so other GMs, who had higher picks but did not take, would be first to blame.

Now about Euro players. I've seen Darko play and he really impressed me. Hes NBA deal, maybe he wont be superb in first years, but he has big big potential. Lampe - hes a bust, like that Tsikiwhatever from Denver.

Pietrus and Diaw. I've seen them play last summer in U20 championship, even few games of France. Pietrus was the leader of team, with great leaping ability. Both of them had super dunks. Diaw was the captain of the team and he was everywhere, while normally playing as SF, he was PG in offence and C in defense - made some enormous blocks, very versatile. Doesnt shoot much, but work on defence is a best weapon of his. They both wont be superstars or smth, just good hardworking NBA players. I think, they are ready this season.

Pavlovic - also seen that kid last summer. When I saw Yugo's team first, I of course searched for Nenad Krstic and then thought they all are almost men, oh just one kid running - the kid Pavlovic. But he impressed me with his leaping, not bad as for white boy, though he didnt show much stuff in games (more in warmups). But when this season his club came to play my club in Euroleague, I saw someone other. He was more mature, confident, took good shots (maybe too much of them for Euro style, but fits to NBA), he really improved in those few months, but later when I heard thats hes headin for NBA, well I laughed a little bit. Of course hes a yugo and you cant underrate yugos, but I think he should have few years in Europe first and when maybe, maybe NBA.

Sofoklis - I havent seen him, but from what I heard, I think hes ready for NBA, he has already played with pro's and NBA is his future.

I said it few times, but repeat one more: the GM who will draft Slavko Vranes will be the most dumbest in this draft, that guy cant run, cant shoot, cant think, cant catch the ball, oh he looks huge with his 228 cm height, well maybe in the street, not on the court


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## starvydas (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: EuroHype........oh my god I hate it!! Just an example*



> Originally posted by <b>Zalgirinis</b>!
> 
> 
> Lampe - hes a bust, like that Tsikiwhatever from Denver.


I really don't understand people's rationale when they say so and so is a bust when they're only 18 or 19. Isn't it what people said about Jermaine O'Neal? Rashard Lewis? Zach Randoplh? 

Of course there's always going to be some William Averys and Dontonio Wingfields in drafts but at least wait for a good couple years (if not three!) before labelling them busts. The days when the lotto picks can dominate right away are over!


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## Chef (Nov 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: EuroHype........oh my god I hate it!! Just an example*



> Originally posted by <b>starvydas</b>!
> 
> 
> I really don't understand people's rationale when they say so and so is a bust when they're only 18 or 19. Isn't it what people said about Jermaine O'Neal? Rashard Lewis? Zach Randoplh?
> ...


:clap:


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## Zalgirinis (Feb 18, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: EuroHype........oh my god I hate it!! Just an example*



> Originally posted by <b>starvydas</b>!
> 
> I really don't understand people's rationale when they say so and so is a bust when they're only 18 or 19. Isn't it what people said about Jermaine O'Neal? Rashard Lewis? Zach Randoplh?
> 
> Of course there's always going to be some William Averys and Dontonio Wingfields in drafts but at least wait for a good couple years (if not three!) before labelling them busts. The days when the lotto picks can dominate right away are over!


Allright maybe I was a little bit harsh on him, but I really dont think anything will go out from Lampe. Hes a polish, how many good polish players you know? He havent showed anything in Europe yet as Tsiki in Europe also, they both drafted only they are tall. Darko or Sofoklis have showed they can play and those two are just tall, of course if they are lucky and hardworking they could learn the stuff, but no talent in them.


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## Chef (Nov 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: EuroHype........oh my god I hate it!! Just an example*



> Originally posted by <b>Zalgirinis</b>!
> 
> 
> Allright maybe I was a little bit harsh on him, but I really dont think anything will go out from Lampe. Hes a polish, how many good polish players you know? He havent showed anything in Europe yet as Tsiki in Europe also, they both drafted only they are tall. Darko or Sofoklis have showed they can play and those two are just tall, of course if they are lucky and hardworking they could learn the stuff, but no talent in them.


You are wrong. Lampe averaged 18 ppg and 8 rpg in the spanish second division (22 ppg and 8 rpg in the playoffs).


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## Zalgirinis (Feb 18, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: EuroHype........oh my god I hate it!! Just an example*



> Originally posted by <b>Chef</b>!
> 
> You are wrong. Lampe averaged 18 ppg and 8 rpg in the spanish second division (22 ppg and 8 rpg in the playoffs).


Sorry then, I havent seen him myself, so thats why I relyed on some other people opininions, that he will be a bust. Not sure now. We'll see.


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## cmaher (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>cheezdoodle</b>!
> 
> You remember that one dork from Germany way back then that was drafted by the Bucks as the 9th pick? He sucked too. Averaged like 8 points and 3 rebounds his rookie season. What a waste of a pick.


Yeah, what a bust.


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## trueorfalse (May 31, 2003)

Jazzy, how many Euro players have you seen live, in game situations?
Of the people in this discussion Ive had the opportunity to see Bosh, Pietrus, Diaw, Schortsianitis, Lampe and Milicic.

I think Milicic will be a good player in the short run (2 years top)and a very important piece for the Pistons future. The only knock on Milicic that I can see is how he will cope with the increased media coverage and injuries that might occur.

Pietrus will never have the same impact, look at him as someone who will be a second or third guy of the bench.

Diaw doesnt have the same ballhandling abilities and will have to find a nisch as a defensive stopper and needs to improve his range.

Bosh, needs to bulk up...three years from now he will be a very good player, hopefully someone will have faith in him and give him time to improve. If he will be shipped around I think he might stagnate.

Schortsianitis have a great desire to improve and thats what will decide how good he will be. Physically he might be more ready than maybe everyone but James, but its the rest that needs i some work -most important his shot and explosiveness.

Lampe will need to bulk up really bad and at the same time improve his footwork, besides that he might need an attitude adjustment. He is used to get atleast 15 shots/game and that will just not happen his rookie season or the following. If I where a GM I would draft him and send him back overseas for a year or two to develope.

Hype or no hype, I hope people realize that all of the above will need time to adjust to a new culture, a lot more explosive basketball and a killing 82 game regular season. 

But thats just my opinion(s)


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## wichtelmann (Jun 12, 2003)

> You remember that one dork from Germany way back then that was drafted by the Bucks as the 9th pick? He sucked too. Averaged like 8 points and 3 rebounds his rookie season. What a waste of a pick.


could cmaher or cheezdoodle tell who you are talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

Many of you guys have great arguments going on here but I just like to add some of my thoughts:

First Skita was always labeled as a project. He was the second once he got scouted. Skita hardly played in Europe and was a pick PURELY based on potential and no merit. I actually anticipated him having a really bad rookie year and actually said he should not have been a top 10 pick last year but he IS A PROJECT. What really surprised me about him this season however was his shooting percentage....everything else was on par with pretty much what I had predicted. No one can label Skita a bust after only one season. The kid was the youngest in the league last year and is going through a learning process. Skita IS NOT Gasol. Although nbadraft.net does great scouting jobs and a terrific service to fans like us...their comparison of Euro players often involve another euro player with the exception of Darko and Sofo. Even when players are being compared it is only their games not that they would pad the same stats. One huge flaw I have noticed about a lot of posters is that they take comparisons too much to heart without realizing that comparisons are only an easy way to summerize their game especially for those who have yet to see them. Repeat it does not mean that the two players being compared will have the same success or pad the same stats. It is just merely a comparison of their individual game. Now that I got that of my chest...Skita is a longterm project. If he learns and develops as projected he will be a fine pro...if not at least a quality one. 

Second Darko is good...very good and TMOD is right. Nobody is faulting Bosh for his perimeter skills...in fact it is that that has him projected as high as he is. It is the fact that he spends to much time as a perimeter player but that is the new generation big man. I doubt we will see much more pure old schol PFs like Malone anymore. Brand was the last premier oldschool PF to come into the league and one of only a handful "real" PFs in the NBA. 

Third I actually have Lampe at the top of my most "risky" player list. But that has a lot to do with the fact that I haven't manage to see him play...not even in one second. And NO a 30 sec workout clip means nothing...you cannot base someone's game on such. I think Lampe will have a similar season to that of Skita's first year. Mainly sit and learn. He is also a long term project IMO and unlike Darko who was able to dominate at times and play very well against top competition in his native land and in the euroleague, Lampe could not cut it in the first division of Real Madrid. He did post great numbers in a lower league but that is just that a lower league. But Lampe has a lot of potential and only a blind man cannot see that. I also do not think Lampe like Skita a year ago is worthy of a top 10 pick but that has more to do with me never seeing Lampe play before than anything.

Star make many good points here and he has seen these Euro player much more than we have since he resides in France. There is no difference between a European player entering into the league than with any other draft prospect. Remember most rookies do not impact after their rookie season. That is why I questioned networks claiming that the Euros picked last year were "ready to play" last season let alone impact as some claimed. Truth is like I said they are in no different position than North Americans entering into the league...meaning they need time to adjust and learn the game at the pro level. Sure they played against better competition than some college players and every HS player but that does not disregard the process. Only top lottery picks are meant to contribute in their first season. Sure Skita did not but like I said he is a project at best and who can doubt Nene...even he surprised me at times like Yao but in the end their numbers were close to that I predicted (Yao - 11, 7, 2 bpg...Nene - 8, 6 and 2 bpg). But for every Skita there is a Wilcox. How about Jay's performance in his rookie year. All first year disappointments but not busts...can't determine that only after one season. Are euro players being overrated? Yes I believe so...I believe many of the players here are not given second looks because of European players. Like Kapono said send me to crotia and let me grow a beard...he might just become lottery. But that is not to disregard the European players who do make it into the league because they obviously have game which has warranted the attention of a GM to select them in the draft. The NBA is now really becoming a global game with all these internationals it can now really be called the "world's" best professional basketball league. The inclusion of international players only makes the product better through diversity IMO.


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## shroombal (Jul 17, 2002)

these euros beat us in those world games thigns...


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wichtelmann</b>!
> 
> 
> could cmaher or cheezdoodle tell who you are talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


They are talking about Dirk.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>trueorfalse</b>!
> Jazzy, how many Euro players have you seen live, in game situations?
> Of the people in this discussion Ive had the opportunity to see Bosh, Pietrus, Diaw, Schortsianitis, Lampe and Milicic.
> 
> ...


Like you I have managed to seen those player you listed not for a long period of time except for Lampe who I have not seen before at all. I agree with your Darko assessment...talent and skill wise he is NBA ready but mentally is the question. He is just beginning to experience America and hopefully he can cope with the culture shock and media frenzy which has not really surrounded him at all back in his native country. IMO it is actually great for Darko to go to an established team which allows him more time to develop. Like one scout said in 7 out of the last 10 years he would have been #1 pick and I agree with that.

Good assessment on Pietrus and Diaw.

Two questions how much has Sofo improved the last couple months? I have heard that he ahs improved his footwork but is still unagressive and a defensive liability especially in the NBA. Also what is up with Lampe's accused bad attutide? Any truth in that and how far or close are scouting reports to Lampe's actual game?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> Like you I have managed to seen those player you listed not for a long period of time except for Lampe who I have not seen before at all. I agree with your Darko assessment...talent and skill wise he is NBA ready but mentally is the question. He is just beginning to experience America and hopefully he can cope with the culture shock and media frenzy which has not really surrounded him at all back in his native country. IMO it is actually great for Darko to go to an established team which allows him more time to develop. Like one scout said in 7 out of the last 10 years he would have been #1 pick and I agree with that.
> ...


Good Post as always BBall Doctor.

But I question what everyone is saying negatively against Lampe. He has had great workouts all over the league, the reason why he is not going to go 5th is because Riley is being pressured to win now, and he has two overrated players in Grant and Jones, so he has to win or there will be turnover in the Heat front office.

Lampe is 7'0 265. He has already gained 15 lbs since working out with Tim Grover. He will be with Grover till the Middle of August working out and training. This guy is not some small soft player. Elton Brand in workouts and scrimmages has been quoted as saying that he is really really good. 

He will be a PF, and I have a feeling he will be an All-Star in the NBA. The thing working for him, is he is working with Grover and Grover has put him on the diet and training he needs to be a top pro, but what I liked was that Grover said, he has a lot of desire to make this happen (speaking about Lampe). When a guy like Grover says it, I listen, because he doesn't just say that all athletes have desire. This kid wants to contribute this year and I have a feeling he just might.

Oh yeah Skita haters, he was a project, he is not a bust and I have a question how many people here actually watched Nuggets games, I have league pass so I caught a few. The problem for Skita was his body and the speed of the game. He was just too skinny and he grew 2 more inches on top of it. He is now 7'1 231. He will probably be 240 by the beginning of the season and should be playing summer league again. Again I state if you watched Nuggets games for some reason the nuggets coach didn't want to throw him out in the fire (probably to save his confidence, but he had a few games of 14 pts and 7 assists. He is very versatile and I think he will be improved this year. 

Most Euro's need a year to adjust, but once they adjust they sure seem to be real good.

Dirk, Peja, Hedo, Gasol, AK-47, Rasho, Illgalskus, - they were all much better than 2nd year, so don't be surprised.

Also on Nachbar, when was he gonna play for the Rockets, they have Posey, Griffin, Mo Taylor, Glen Rice and Kenny Thomas before then. That is not enough minutes to go around to fit Nachbar in. Why do you think they are trying to trade Rice and Griffin, Mobley for a top notch SG. They want Posey as the defensive 2/3 and Nachbar as a 3. He can play.

Also look for my man Radmanovic to be a star if he can ever get out and start. 

Sorry this is so long, but another reason why their is so much eurohype, is because they are 6'9 and taller and they all can shoot. The NBA front office guys want guys who can hit open jumpshots. You don't see many Euro guards in the NBA and you probably never will, because of defensive purposes, but guys 6'11 playing SF that can shoot in real games and not just practice (aka Jon Bender) will always be desired.


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## starvydas (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> Also what is up with Lampe's accused bad attutide? Any truth in that


I've read a lot of bad stuff about him in bball magazines. Apparently he's a kind of diva that can't take criticism and thinks he's the best thing since slice bread because he's the man in a, let's admit it, joke of a league (Spanish second division). I've also read he has the tendency to blame his teammates when his team loses, not a sign of being a great leader. 
I must say those comments were made early in this season so maybe he has evolved? Looks like it's the case since I've read that he had good interviews with the Heat when he worked out for them.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>starvydas</b>!
> 
> 
> I've read a lot of bad stuff about him in bball magazines. Apparently he's a kind of diva that can't take criticism and thinks he's the best thing since slice bread because he's the man in a, let's admit it, joke of a league (Spanish second division). I've also read he has the tendency to blame his teammates when his team loses, not a sign of being a great leader.
> I must say those comments were made early in this season so maybe he has evolved? Looks like it's the case since I've read that he had good interviews with the Heat when he worked out for them.


I am hoping so because like I have said in many of my posts....better talent = better product. That bodes very well for any fan of the NBA product.


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## minero (Jun 21, 2003)

top 6 last years rookie 

- stoudamire
- ming 
- butler 
- bozzer
- hilario 
- ginobilli
..................think wagner n tshikibiebgicbpocqville gonna improve a lot ...u have gasol as rookie of the year n dirk as a top player n the league...think then worth the risk ....


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## Chef (Nov 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>starvydas</b>!
> 
> 
> I've read a lot of bad stuff about him in bball magazines. Apparently he's a kind of diva that can't take criticism and thinks he's the best thing since slice bread because he's the man in a, let's admit it, joke of a league (Spanish second division). I've also read he has the tendency to blame his teammates when his team loses, not a sign of being a great leader.
> I must say those comments were made early in this season so maybe he has evolved? Looks like it's the case since I've read that he had good interviews with the Heat when he worked out for them.


Spanish second division "a joke of a league" ???

French ProA league is not much better 

Problem with Lampe is that he wanted to play with Real Madrid senior team and Real Madrid wanted him to play with the junior team, where he was the best player by far. That's why people may have thought he is a kind of "diva"


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## suspect (Sep 10, 2002)

I don't think that the French League is that much better than the Spanish Second Division...


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