# 2005 Class = stinks



## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

> The verdict is in for next year's incoming NBA class.
> 
> "At the top, it's the worst class I've ever seen," says Hoop Scoop recruiting analyst Clark Francis. "And I've been doing this for 20-some years. It's a bad class."
> 
> After a great 2004 class and what looks to be a spectacular class of 2006, 2005 seems to become lost somewhere in-between.


RealGM.com

It's not looking great, but I don't think it will be as bad as 2000, which may be the worst ever:

1.) Kenyon
2.) Stromile
3.) Darius
4.) Fizer
5.) Mike Miller
6.) DerMarr
7.) Mihm
8.) Crawford
9.) Pryzbilla
10.) Dooling
11.) Moiso
12.) Etan Thomas 
13.) Courtney Alexander
14.) Mateen
15.) Collier

:sour:


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## Kuskid (Aug 18, 2004)

Little early to say that for sure. There's always some busts/breakout players. We'll see in a few years.


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

Means good year for college


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> RealGM.com
> ...


francis was talking about the 2005 highschool class being weak. i'm not sure how that translates to the nba draft being weak.


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## Starbury03 (Aug 12, 2003)

Gerald Green will be a very good NBA and a perineial all-star. I've seen him play and I was really impressed.


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## ChrisCrossover (Sep 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> It's not looking great, but I don't think it will be as bad as 2000, which may be the worst ever


You may be right but after all we have seen a rich man's Etan Thomas become this year's #2 pick and in all likelyhood the NBA's new Rookie of the Year: Emeka Okafor. I think this says a lot about this year's draft class, too. Perhaps we are just spoiled by 1995, '96, '98 and 2003.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

> It's not looking great, but I don't think it will be as bad as 2000, which may be the worst ever:


Haven't really thought about, but that was a bad year! Some serviceable players (Martin, Miller) but overall pretty lousy.

Almost as bad as the 85 draft? with Bias, Washburn, and all those flameouts


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> 
> 
> Haven't really thought about, but that was a bad year! Some serviceable players (Martin, Miller) but overall pretty lousy.
> ...


first, it was the 86 draft... guys like patrick ewing, chris mullin, joe dumars, and karl malone were taken in 85. second, how can u call bias a flameout? its straight up ignorant to say the guy who died two days after being drafted was a bust.


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>-James-</b>!
> 
> 
> first, it was the 86 draft... guys like patrick ewing, chris mullin, joe dumars, and karl malone were taken in 85. second, how can u call bias a flameout? its straight up ignorant to say the guy who died two days after being drafted was a bust.


I dont think it is possible to be more of a bust than someone who died before he ever played an NBA game :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:


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## Springsteen (Jan 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>-James-</b>!
> its straight up ignorant to say the guy who died two days after being drafted was a bust.


Now THAT'S an ignorant statement.

A pretty good definition of bust would be someone who does not live up to their potential. Bias, certainly did not live up to his potential. Tragic circumstances aside, he's one of the biggest busts there is.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Springsteen</b>!
> 
> 
> Now THAT'S an ignorant statement.
> ...


truth is, im not exactly sure what ignorant means... what i guess i meant was insensitive


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## pharcyde (Jun 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>-James-</b>!
> 
> 
> truth is, im not exactly sure what ignorant means... what i guess i meant was insensitive


Oh, the irony...


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## pharcyde (Jun 22, 2002)

Clark Francis also ranks the top 4th graders in the country. I wouldn't turn to him for the most reliable information no matter how many years he's been doing it.

That said, the 2005 high school class is generally regarded as pretty weak, not only at the top but also throughout. It'll be a bad one for both the NBA and college, it seems.

And for the poster who's seen Green play, big deal. Seeing a dude play a few times in high school is hardly enough to tell if he's a perennial All Star or not. A lot can happen between now and the day he's drafted, whenever that may be.


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

Dont get me started Springsteen!!!:upset:


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## #1BucksFan (Apr 14, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> 
> 
> RealGM.com
> ...


You're forgetting Dez Mason (17), Q Richardson (18), and Mike Redd (43). It was bad, but there are some good players in there.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

James said:



> first, it was the 86 draft... guys like patrick ewing, chris mullin, joe dumars, and karl malone were taken in 85. second, how can u call bias a flameout? its straight up ignorant to say the guy who died two days after being drafted was a bust.


If you look at my post I specifically put ? mark after the year because I didn't remember the exact year.

Secondly

Although Len Bias was bust for the most horrible of reasons, I actually didn't mean flameout to apply him, specifically. Simply look at the first round of that draft:

1. Brad Daugherty North Carolina Cleveland
2. Len Bias Maryland Boston
3. Chris Washburn North Carolina State Golden State
4. Chuck Person Auburn Indiana
5. Kenny Walker Kentucky New York
6. William Bedford Memphis State Phoenix
7. Roy Tarpley Michigan Dallas
8. Ron Harper Miami (Ohio) Cleveland
9. Brad Sellers Ohio State Chicago
10. Johnny Dawkins Duke San Antonio
11. John Salley Georgia Tech Detroit
12. John Williams Louisiana State Washington
13. Dwayne Washington Syracuse New Jersey
14. Walter Berry St. John's Portland
15. Dell Curry Virginia Tech Utah
16. Maurice Martin St. Joseph's Denver
17. Harold Pressley Villanova Sacramento
18. Mark Alarie Duke Denver
19. Billy Thompson Louisville Atlanta
20. Buck Johnson Alabama Houston
21. Anthony Jones UNLV Washington
22. Scott Skiles Michigan State Milwaukee
23. Ken Barlow Notre Dame LA Lakers 
24. Arvidas Sabonis USSR 

Lots of "flameouts" in this draft

Out of the league becuase of drugs: bias, washburn, and tarpley
Just plain scrubs: Bedford, Walker, Sellers, etc

Of the 24 picks only Sabonis, Daugerty, Person, Harper, Curry, Salley actually had decent careers. If you want to throw in the second round you can add Price and Rodman to this list

Again a lot like the 2000 draft some decent players but no franchise players and you most likely would have been better off trading a pick from either of these years for draft picks in other years

IMO: It looks the 2005 draft might equal both of these years in terms of lack of talent. But hopefully we won't have any more Tarpley's let alone Len Bias situations ever again


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## ChrisCrossover (Sep 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> Of the 24 picks only Sabonis, Daugerty, Person, Harper, Curry, Salley actually had decent careers. If you want to throw in the second round you can add Price and Rodman to this list


But that's something, isn't it? One of the best defenders and possibly the best rebounder in league history (Rodman), a couple of franchise leaders (Price, Daugherty), some more quality guys (Harper, Person, Curry) and one of the top-ten centers of all time (Sabonis). It could be worse.



> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!Although Len Bias was bust for the most horrible of reasons, I actually didn't mean flameout to apply him, specifically.


The way I see it, a player qualifies as a bust only after failing. Did Len Bias fail? Did he even have the chance to fail? You can call Darius Miles, Todd Fuller, Michael Olowokandi or Ed O'Bannon a bust, but not Bias, who seemed to have a bright career in front of him before he passed away.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> James said:
> 
> 
> ...


i thought u meant that as a question


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

> But that's something, isn't it?


Of course, you're going to get some decent players each year, but we're comparing draft years. You didn't give an example of which draft class you thought was actually worse then '86. For example, compare that class to the year just after it (87)

1. David Robinson Navy San Antonio
2. Armon Gilliam UNLV Phoenix
3. Dennis Hopson Ohio State New Jersey
4. Reggie Williams Georgetown LA Clippers
5. Scottie Pippen Central Arkanasas Seattle
6. Kenny Smith North Carolina Sacramento
7. Kevin Johnson California Cleveland
8. Olden Polynice Virginia Chicago
9. Derrick McKey Alabama Seattle
10. Horace Grant Clemson Chicago
11. Reggie Miller UCLA Indiana
12. Tyrone Bogues Wake Forest Washington
13. Joe Wolf North Carolina LA Clippers
14. Tellis Frank Western Kentucky Golden State
15. Jose Ortiz Oregon State Utah
16. Christian Welp Washington Philadelphia
17. Ronnie Murphy Jacksonville Portland
18. Mark Jackson St. John's New York
19. Ken Norman Illinois LA Clippers
20. Jim Farmer Alabama Dallas
21. Dallas Comegys DePaul Atlanta
22. Reggie Lewis Northeastern Boston
23. Greg Anderson Houston San Antonio

You of course you have your busts but look at the number and quality of these players (Robinson, Gilliam, Pippen, Johnosn, Mckey, Grant, Miller, Jackson). Even Polynice, Ken Norman, and Williams stayed in the league awhile. Past the first round, also out of this year came Dudley and Marcuilinis. The contrast is especially apparent in the first 10 picks where teams have the most at stake when drafting.


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## ChrisCrossover (Sep 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> Of course, you're going to get some decent players each year, but we're comparing draft years. You didn't give an example of which draft class you thought was actually worse then '86.


I didn't know I'd have to. If you dig deep into each draft, you will always find players who wound up having a decent career. Just compare Armon Gilliam, Olden Polynice, Ken Norman, Reggie Williams, Chris Dudley and Sarunas Marciulionis, all of whom you mentioned, with 1986 rookies Johnny Dawkins, Johnny Newman, Nate McMillan, Kevin Duckworth, David Wingate, Jeff Hornacek (!), Kenny Gattison, Drazen Petrovic (!!), Anthony Bowie, all of whom you did not mention.

Thus, I'd say that the 1986 draft wasn't especially great - with the exceptions of Daugherty, Sabonis and a few others, eventually Petrovic - but I wouldn't call it something like the all-time worst. 

Aren't drafts defined twice, once when they are held and once when its players' careers are over? Looking back, I'd say 1986 was a decent year, and of course clearly overshadowed by 1984 and 1987. 

So, if you want to know which drafts I think are pretty weak, I would list 1990, 1997, 2000 for various reasons - and, in all likelyhood, 2005, maybe even 2006, depending on who comes out.


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

Scott Skiles never gets any love


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>HeinzGuderian</b>!
> Scott Skiles never gets any love


30 assists


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Kenyon Martin
Stromile Swift
Mike Miller
Jamal Crawford
Hedo Turkoglu
Desmond Mason
Quentin Richardson
Jamaal Magloire
Marko Jaric
Jake Tskalidas
Jake Voshkul
Eduardo Najera
Michael Redd
Brian Cardinal


These are some decent-good players but not the cream of the crop. Michael Redd and Kenyon Martin are 2 players that I would consider franchise cornerstones. Do not misinterpret this, no FRANCHISE PLAYER like Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, where you can just put role players around them. These guys are guys that can be the best on a good team but not on a championship team YET, but could be a top contributor (1 or 2 depending on the overall depth in talent level on the team). This class may be weak compared to others but Michael Redd and Kenyon Martin are top talents in the league no doubt. This is not the crap class that some people make it out to be.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

> So, if you want to know which drafts I think are pretty weak, I would list 1990, 1997, 2000 for various reasons - and, in all likelyhood, 2005, maybe even 2006, depending on who comes out.


I guess you can define how a good draft is by the number of players who have a long career and number of franchise players.

Agree with you about 2000 and 1990, but 97?

That draft had two legitimate franchise, HOF players: Duncan and McGrady

Then some guys putting up decent careers (all these players have been starters or sixth men for more then one season):
KVH, Battie, Billups, Mercer, Fortson, Derek Anderson, Maurice Taylor, Cato, Knight, Pollard, Bobby Jackson, Tim Thomas

I think it's also important to remember that drafts are only two rounds now so players like Hornacek or Petrovic wouldn't even be considered part of the draft now


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Most experts have been saying that it will be a very strong draft because of all the europeans opting out of last years draft and a strong college class.

Randolph Morris
Marvin Williams
Chris Paul
LaMarcus Aldridge
Martynas Andriuskevicius
Johan Petro
Kosta Perovic
Aleksandrov
Chris Taft
Jarrett Jack
Mustafa Shakur
Hassan Adams
.........

There will be plenty good prospects in next years draft.


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## ChrisCrossover (Sep 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> Agree with you about 2000 and 1990, but 97?
> That draft had two legitimate franchise, HOF players: Duncan and McGrady


This is how far we agree. But after that? A couple of underachievers: van Horn (dubbed as Larry Bird #2), Tim Thomas (who should be NBA top-10), Cato, Mo Taylor, Foyle. 

Then, there are some half-busts, considering their draft positions: Daniels, Battie, Mercer, Abdul-Wahad. And what about real busts like Johnny Taylor, Anstey, Grant, and almost every player after # 17 (with a few exceptions like Pollard and B. Jackson)? 

I admit that the class of '97 has improved some in recent years. Billups has increased his level, though I still see him as an underachiever. What is he anyway? A point guard? Surely not a playmaker. Personally, I would expect more out of a #3 pick, and I believe that Ben Gordon will outclass Billups within two or three years.

Antonio Daniels was a bust before he wound up in Seattle, Bobby Jackson used to be a journeyman, and when did the careers of Mark Blount, Stephen Jackson and Chris Crawford really start? I guess you see my point.

In order to judge how weak this draft really is, try to fit in any player from '97 in either the previous or following drafts. Apart from Duncan (as the sure-fire #1) and van Horn, no 97er would have cracked the top-10, perhaps even the top-15, of either the '96 or '98 draft, at least not in my opinion.



> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> I think it's also important to remember that drafts are only two rounds now so players like Hornacek or Petrovic wouldn't even be considered part of the draft now


You're right but after all, those late-rounders (Mase, Elie, Dudley) still represent their draft years - just like Redd will still be representing his draft even if Stern limits the draft to one round only in the future.

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> Originally posted by <b>Amareca</b>!
> Most experts have been saying that it will be a very strong draft because of all the europeans opting out of last years draft and a strong college class.


I doubt that there will be top-level international talent in next year's draft. Pick whom you like, there's probably none better than Petro, Aleksandrov and Andriuskevicius, and I wouldn't take any of them over Paul or Taft.

Who else is there? Spain's Rudy Fernandez? Too young, too unproven, too raw. Kosta Perovic? A bust waiting to happen. Splitter? Omerhodzic? Chiriaev, Pecherov, Vasquez? I doubt the quality of their game, at least for the first round and real impact within the first couple of years. The best Euopean player with immediate impact, ironically, may be Ronny Turiaf of Gonzaga. 



> Originally posted by <b>Amareca</b>!
> Randolph Morris
> Marvin Williams
> Chris Paul
> ...


Only in the unlikely case that they all come out at the same time. It happened in '96 and '98 but it doesn't need to happen in '05.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

You know, following the NBA draft as I have for quite awhile now, it is always at this time & pretty much right up to a few weeks before the draft, that the draft is called weak. I don't think the 2005 draft will be nearly as weak as many people are predicting it to be. I think in the end, the 2005 draft will ned up being fairly strong. Provided that a number of european players stay in, which I think a fair number will. 

The 2005 HS class IMO, appears to be rather weak for preps to pros players, but there will be a few who make the leap. As for college players, I expect most of the "highly rated" prospects to defect to the NBA, as they ALWAYS do. That means players like Chris Paul, JR Giddens, Chris Taft, Jarrett Jack & Ray Felton will probably declare if they are projected to go high, which most of them will be. It is FAR FAR more the exception for a player to pass up being a 1st round (let alone a lottery) pick to stay in college. Particularly a player who has played in college for more than a year. IT HAS happened of course, but it is more the exception than the rule.

The question mark is guys like Marvin Williams & Rudy Gay. I think there are a lot of factors affecting (or not?) their decision. How did they play in there 1st year? Where are they projected to go in the draft? & How does their play in college effect their draft position? What outside factors could enhance\detract from their decision to jump? Actually, I think those are questions you could ask of any player deciding whther or not to enter the draft. But if history has showed anything, it is that IF a player has a guaranteed 3-year contract waiting for him (meaning, he will be a 1st round pick), more than likely, that player will enter the draft. This becomes even MORESO IMO, the higher that player is projected to go.

Anyway, I think the 2005 draft could be pretty good, there will be a lot of good european players who COULD enter: Petro, Splitter, Andriuskevicius, Aleksandrov, Pecherov, Fernandez, Perovic, Ukic, Rodriguez, Jianlin, Omerhodzic, Bogdanovic & Sani to name a few. There is good, albeit young college talent as well, mix in a few HS players and it should be a decent draft. Of course, not every player listed here will enter, but my bet is that a majority of them will, and there will be a few players not listed who will be in the draft as well. There always is.

*PG –* Chris Paul, Roko Ukic(Euro), John Gilchrist, Mustafa Shakur, Ray Felton & Sergio Rodriguez (Euro), Chris Thomas, Deron Williams, Nate Robinson, Jarrett Jack, Travis Diener

*[SG –* Rudy Fernandez (Euro), Rudy Gay, JR Giddens, Julius Hodge, Kennedy Winston , Fransico Garcia, Hassan Adams, Antoine Wright, Brandon Rush (HS), BJ Elder, Marco Belinelli (Euro) 

*SF –* Nemanja Aleksandrov (Euro), Marvin Williams, Sean Banks, Hakim Warrick, Charlie Villanueva, Ryan Gomes, Damir Omerhodzic (Euro), Luka Bogdanovic (Euro), Ivan Chiriaev, 

*PF –* Chris Taft, Tiago Splitter (Euro), Wayne Simien, LaMarcus Aldridge, Lawrence Roberts. Andrew Bogut. Randolph Morris, Ronny Turiaf, Fran Vasquez (Euro), Andray Blatche (HS), Uros Slokar (Euro), David Lee, Josh Boone, Brandon Bass, Ike Diogu, Torin Francis, Sean May, Tahirou Sani (Euro)

*C –* Martynas Andriuskevicius (Euro), Johan Petro (Euro), Yi Jianlin (China), Kosta Perovic (Euro), Peja Samardziski (Euro), Channing Frye, Paul Davis


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## ChrisCrossover (Sep 27, 2004)

Good comment, kmurph, and I agree with most of what you said. 



> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> But if history has showed anything, it is that IF a player has a guaranteed 3-year contract waiting for him (meaning, he will be a 1st round pick), more than likely, that player will enter the draft. This becomes even MORESO IMO, the higher that player is projected to go.


I think Luol Deng is a good example for a player you describe here. When he entered Duke, he was seen as somebody who was wise enough to seek education just as much as success in basketball, following the likes of Shane Battier, Emeka Okafor or Tim Duncan. Then, when his draft stock sky-rocketed, he started to ponder and eventually entered the draft.

Hakim Warrick is the opposite example. He was a safe first-round pick with a realistic shot at the lottery in '04, and still he returned to 'cuse for his senior season. Although I still see him as a lottery pick in '05, the odds were clearly against him returning to college but he did. 



> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> 
> Anyway, I think the 2005 draft could be pretty good, there will be a lot of good european players who COULD enter: Petro, Splitter, Andriuskevicius, Aleksandrov, Pecherov, Fernandez, Perovic, Ukic, Rodriguez, Jianlin, Omerhodzic, Bogdanovic & Sani


How many of them are ready to contribute right away? Ukic, perhaps Petro. All the others are pure projects, and in the case of Bogdanovic, Omerhodzic, Pecherov and Sani, one has to doubt if they make it to the first draft round at all.



> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> 
> *PG –* Chris Paul, Roko Ukic(Euro), John Gilchrist, Mustafa Shakur, Ray Felton & Sergio Rodriguez (Euro), Chris Thomas, Deron Williams, Nate Robinson, Jarrett Jack, Travis Diener


There is a typical situation on the log-jammed PG position: All of them *could* enter but only half of them *will*. Paul and Shakur should be top-10 in any draft, Gilchrist, Jack and Rodriguez are lottery-material also, but the rest? Ukic and Felton will make the first round, though especially the Tar Heel has been a disappointment during his time in North Carolina, given his talent and physical abilities. Those remaining will face the hardship of an unguaranteed contract, which makes it even more doubtful they'll declare at all. 

Apart from the seniors of course, I wouldn't expect more than four of them to declare. In 2005 this should be Paul (top-5), Jack, Ukic and Felton. Being Sergio Rodriguez, why enter at age 18 if rival point guards may harm your draft status? 

Thus, though we are talking about a pretty good draft if everyone declares, it's more than likely that at least half of those you've listed up will withdraw, with the result being a decent draft and best.

BTW: Splitter, as a Brazilian, shouldn't be counted as a Euro, and there is no way that Yi LianLian is a center. He's a Garnett type, stuck between the three and four positions.


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## Kapono2Okafor (Oct 20, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pioneer10</b>!
> 
> 
> Haven't really thought about, but that was a bad year! Some serviceable players (Martin, Miller) but overall pretty lousy.
> ...


the only reason bias was a bust is because he made a bad decision and i think its time for u guys to stop talkin trash bout a guy who is dead that is the ignorant thing right there just stop with it and continue on with other people who survive there bust status


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## J19 (Nov 16, 2004)

Ignorance, stop looking at the mock draft now, its going be totally different a couple of months from now


You never even seen half of the players in this draft play 5 - 10 games


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## sMaK (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> Kenyon Martin
> Stromile Swift
> Mike Miller
> ...


No way, that draft IS the crap class people make it out to be. The best played in that draft was taken in the 2nd round.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The bottom line is, this is a strong year for NCAA prospects. Lots of impact players will be able available even into the 2nd round, if guys don't stay in school. 

This draft has the potential to be much better than this one and I liked the guys in this draft.

When you have guys like Paul, Deron Williams, Gilchrist, Giddens, Garcia, Hodge, Warrick, Graham, Taft, Bogut, Paul Davis, Shakur, Winston, Jack, Felton, LaMarcus Aldridge, Sean Banks, Rodney Carney, etc...

It shows that its' going to be a wonderful year for the college athlete. The draft is usually at it's best when you have NBA caliber NCAA talent, like the 2003 draft with Wade, Bosh, Melo, Hinrich, Ford, Hayes, Ridnour, Howard, Daniels.

This draft is even deeper with prospects as I feel good system players like Romel Beck and Dijon Thompson will fall into the 2nd round, but some good team is going to figure out that these guys can play and if you stick them on the right team, they could be dangerous. A guy with Thompson's skills (to be able to play 3 positions out there) is a much needed asset to someone looking for versatility off the bench. 

Sometimes, I wish I had a GM job, because this is the kind of draft where you can build a team quickly. Watch out for the Nets in this draft because they have multiple picks, included with more than likely will be cap room from dealing Kidd and you could be looking at a decent team next year in Jersey.


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