# Houston's knees



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Guess this is why we were pursuing the likes of Crawford and Van Exel.

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/16372.htm


February 20, 2004 -- A leading knee cartilage growth specialist told The Post yesterday that if Allan Houston returns from his rehab assignment and continues to relapse into pain, the Knicks shooting guard should consider another arthroscopic surgery to stimulate more cartilage growth. 

Dr. Howard Luks, chief of sports medicine at Westchester Medical Center, said Houston's recurring pain after undergoing surgery in June is a clear sign the cartilage that grew back in Houston's right knee is "soft and fragmented." 

Dr. Luks said some patients whose pain persists after Houston's kind of surgery wind up needing a cartilage transplant procedure that sidelines an athlete for about a year.


----------



## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

Very good post. I think Houston's knees is a question both Houston and Knick management will have to come clean about. I understand about how we have been winning without Houston, and of the new additions to the team, but I firmly believe we need Houston to make it past the first/second round in the playoffs. We need Houston to keep everyone honest and not try to take out Marbury (and I mean physically take him out). We have a real shot to do something and I feel we need Houston to make it work with the team constituted as it is now.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

I've been screaming about this for two months. Houston looks hobbled. That makes me real leary about giving up Lampe, Vujanic, and two first rounders.


If houston goes down this team has no, reliable shooter, and no three point threat. This means a box zone or a 3 2 zone would rape us nightly.


We need to get a shooter if hope to get past Jersey and Detroit.


----------



## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

If he goes down, someone else has to step up. Sounds like he might be like Grant Hill, enormous contract and not playing....


Offseason, get Crawford.


----------



## Jmonty580 (Jun 20, 2003)

I blame it on whoever is doing all the surgies for the knicks, or whom ever the knicks team is recommending. First camby, then McDyess, now they are screwing up Houston. Why didnt the first surgury work? I bet Houston never plays like he did last season again and I bet that if he has another surgery that he will be finished.


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> I've been screaming about this for two months. Houston looks hobbled. That makes me real leary about giving up Lampe, Vujanic, and two first rounders.
> 
> 
> ...


I was just wondering why you think giving up Lampe. Vujanic, and two first rounders has anything to do with the Knicks beating the zone. None of the above would be able to contribute to the Knicks at all this season, and neither is a shooter either, so even if the trade didn't happem, the Knicks would have had no shooters either (don't count van horn, because he has nothing to do with the Marbury trade). IMO, only counting shooters (and players who would contribute) the knicks got a better shooter, Marbury, for Ward and Eisley. Teams could "rape" us with the zone if Houston went down even if the Marbury trade didn't happen.

And I think the knicks could still play well even without Houston. I point to the Pistons game, in which the Knicks played extremely well late in the game without Houston.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> I was just wondering why you think giving up Lampe. Vujanic, and two first rounders has anything to do with the Knicks beating the zone. None of the above would be able to contribute to the Knicks at all this season


Why is every Knick fan in the world obsessed with THIS SEASON. Dolan puppets.



> and neither is a shooter either, so even if the trade didn't happem, the Knicks would have had no shooters either (don't count van horn, because he has nothing to do with the Marbury trade).


Huh? Lampe is a shooter, and Vujanic is more than likely at least as effective as Marbury from 3pt range (in other words, average at worst).



> IMO, only counting shooters (and players who would contribute) the knicks got a better shooter, Marbury, for Ward and Eisley.


Ward and Eisley are vastly better than Marbury from 3pt range. He's a career 32% shooter, and even that number is a little bloated due to the shortened 3pt line in his first 2 seasons. His .353 rookie accuracy is his career high, and his 102 makes as a rookie rank 2nd. Talk about his Knick accuracy all you want, shooting percentages mean little over 20 games. Ward is a career 36% shooter and has shot at least 37% in 5 of the last 7 seasons. Eisley has also shot 37% in 5 of the last 7 seasons.



> And I think the knicks could still play well even without Houston. I point to the Pistons game, in which the Knicks played extremely well late in the game without Houston.


One game does not mean very much. Don't forget Shandon Anderson held Rip Hamilton to 3-20 FG. Allan Houston wouldn't have done that.



> Offseason, get Crawford.


Crawford = Vujanic. Well, except that the Knicks had a better chance of bringing Vujanic over next season than they do Crawford. Crawford is a restricted FA. Considering the Knicks can only offer the mid-level (meaning Chicago can easily match), and considering they already plan to use it on Rasheed, they're kinda strapped for options, no?



> Why didnt the first surgury work? I bet Houston never plays like he did last season again and I bet that if he has another surgery that he will be finished.


I blame the players for getting old. Jerks.

And what are you complaining about surgeries for? You do realize that 20 years ago, these players would be RETIRED because of that injury?

Consider that today there are 11 players in the NBA who played in the 80s. Cliff Robinson, Kevin Willis, Vlade Divac, Mark Jackson, Rod Strickland, Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, Olden Polynice, Reggie Miller, Avery Johnson, and Karl Malone. 12 if you count Glen Rice, who was waived earlier in the year.

Compare that to 10 years ago, when only 5 players were in the NBA that played in the 70s. James Edwards, Moses Malone, Robert Parish, Bill Cartwright, and Tree Rollins.

20 years ago, only 2 players were in the NBA that played in the 60s. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Elvin Hayes.

Improved medical care has lead to longer careers. Last year Michael Jordan and John Stockton played in the NBA at 40 years old. It used to be unheard of to see a guard last longer than 35 in the NBA. Houston and Penny are both 32. That should put a couple things in perspective.

Not every surgery is 100% successful, there are plenty of instances where a player has had to get a follow up surgery because something didn't work out right. Players usually get that kind of surgery in the offseason. Houston has been having operations every offseason for a while now. Why is it no surprise that he is finding it harder to endure the rigors of an NBA schedule as he grows older? 20 years ago Houston's career would likely be over, so be grateful that he'd only miss a year.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Good thoughts about injuries, Rashidi. 

One thing that does bother me though is I remember Houston complaining about pain and saying the Drs told him it's normal and part of the process. Then we read in that article one of his docs saying he should have shut it down when he felt discomfort. So which is it? How well is he being advised? 

I do think teams often demand too many minutes too soon from some of their guys. I hope with Penny and F-will this team is deep enough now that Houston can contribute 20 mins a night and we not sink. And as Marbury has had ankle injuries, and ankles are critical to his game, do we really need him logging the second most minutes in the league?


----------



## Jmonty580 (Jun 20, 2003)

Hey Rashandi, I know that madical care has improved vastly over the years. Im talking about whomever the knicks recommend or send thier players to coupld be the problem. Name a Knicks that has had an injury and had surgury while playing with the knicks and then came back and was sucessfull. Ewing retired, camby had to have surgry again in denver to correct his problem, and mcDyess hasnt been right since his injury. Im just saying no knicks ever seems to recover from a surgury.


----------



## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

Someone posting here compared Marbury's 3 pt accuracy to Charlie Ward's and Eisley. While both of them shoot 36% and 37% respectively for their careers, I don't think any Knick fan would take either of those numbers now over Marbury. You keep knocking Marbury, but at the end of the day, it is Marbury who is the catalyst for this teams' turnaround. Those aforementioned PG's you continue to heap praise upon didn't get the job done the last few years, did they? Look that the final product at the end of the season...what would you rather have a) the Pre Marbury Knicks with Ward and Eisley or b) the Knicks with Marbury and Penny. Check the stats you're so fond of and tell us what you come up with...


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Ewing retired, camby had to have surgry again in denver to correct his problem, and mcDyess hasnt been right since his injury. Im just saying no knicks ever seems to recover from a surgury.


The Knicks acquired McDyess after his first surgery.
Camby has not had a major injury this season.

EWING? Ewing was 36 when he had wrist surgery. Most players have already retired at 36. I remember the injury very well, it was quite a terrible one.

How is Karl Malone handling his first time on the IL?

Stop blaming surgeons for major injuries that the players themselves suffer. You can't fix everything 100% everytime you have surgery. Have you ever had surgery before? When you tear or break something, that's something that stays with you for life, regardless of how well the surgery is performed.

I suppose if Penny hurts his knee for the 5th time, has surgery as a Knick, and retires, you'll blame it on the doc.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Someone posting here compared Marbury's 3 pt accuracy to Charlie Ward's and Eisley. While both of them shoot 36% and 37% respectively for their careers, I don't think any Knick fan would take either of those numbers now over Marbury. You keep knocking Marbury, but at the end of the day, it is Marbury who is the catalyst for this teams' turnaround. Those aforementioned PG's you continue to heap praise upon didn't get the job done the last few years, did they? Look that the final product at the end of the season...what would you rather have a) the Pre Marbury Knicks with Ward and Eisley or b) the Knicks with Marbury and Penny. Check the stats you're so fond of and tell us what you come up with...


Unfortunately, this has nothing to do with the discussion. We're talking about whether or not Marbury's 3pter can be depended on to beat the zone. And the answer is no. He is as good(bad) at 3's as Jason Kidd. If the Nets can't depend on Kidd and Kittles to beat a zone, then the Knicks are going to have an even tougher time against a zone with Marbury and Penny. Ward and Eisley obviously were good enough to beat a zone last year, when the Knicks were 2nd in the league in 3pt%.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> I've been screaming about this for two months. Houston looks hobbled. That makes me real leary about giving up Lampe, Vujanic, and two first rounders.





> We need to get a shooter if hope to get past Jersey and Detroit.


Hold on there...Before we gave up that bunch of WHAT IFS,we were playing .333 ball...There was no playoffs,no present and no future...Now that the trade pays off and we are turning it around,you miss the guys we traded Marbury for???

Makes no sense......if we diddnt make the trade we wouldnt have to worry about nj and detroit

Secondly,what did we give up....Rights to vujanic??Lampe,who isnt getting run for phoenix,Eisly,pure garbage...Dyss,out for the year...

Lets be real....


----------



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

not just that^ but our first round pick looks like it will be the 17th or 18th pick this year. This years draft doesnt look really promising so i dont think we lose much in terms of the draft either


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

If Sebastian Telfair (Marbury's cousin) enters the draft, he is expected to go 18th according to nbadraft.net.

If he goes to college, he's a lottery pick the following year.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

.


> Ward and Eisley obviously were good enough to beat a zone last year, when the Knicks were 2nd in the league in 3pt%


true,the 1% of the time other teams played a zone,they shot well..Too bad the other 99% of the time against a man to man,the flat out sukked



> Why is every Knick fan in the world obsessed with THIS SEASON. Dolan puppets.


Not everyone is as happy as you and layden spending 80 million and winning .333 of your games..with NO future....

Iteresting how you did not want to NUKE the Knicks and start over and now you are a big picture thinker....layden Puppet




> Huh? Lampe is a shooter, and Vujanic is more than likely at least as effective as Marbury from 3pt range


In what league and what country are they shooters of Marburys caliber..How about having one of the two of them play 10 minutes in the NBA before you make comments like that....



> Crawford = Vujanic


Once again,lets see what mr Vujanic can do in the NBA...Crawford has hit for 40 in the Nba...Vujanics main skill was being smart enough to not come to play for the Knicks under that moron layden

You really should filter out some of your statements....Are you insane comparing lampe and Vujavic to Marbury before one is in the NBA and the other makes his first NBA 3 pointer????


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>dcrono3</b>!
> 
> 
> I was just wondering why you think giving up Lampe. Vujanic, and two first rounders has anything to do with the Knicks beating the zone. None of the above would be able to contribute to the Knicks at all this season, and neither is a shooter either,



I am just going to post under the assumption you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Lampe shot the hell out of the ball in the summer leagues. He had a 3 point explosion. Milos is a good slasher and has a good midrange game.

So a guy who can drive and dish and tall shooter with great range beat the zone.



> so even if the trade didn't happem, the Knicks would have had no shooters either (don't count van horn, because he has nothing to do with the Marbury trade). IMO, only counting shooters (and players who would contribute) the knicks got a better shooter, Marbury, for Ward and Eisley. Teams could "rape" us with the zone if Houston went down even if the Marbury trade didn't happen.


Why should I not count van horn , he was the only mobile shooter we had left, and sure enough he is gone. We gave up to much for steph in my opinion. That's my point. 

Clearly you don't watch Knick games, before we had steph and had houston ward and Van horn, teams would rarely through a zone at us, and if they did it was some kinda weird zone where there was lots of collapsing. Remember the game against Dallas??




> In what league and what country are they shooters of Marburys caliber..How about having one of the two of them play 10 minutes in the NBA before you make comments like that....



Marybury a shooter? You need to do some research on who we lost before you make a comment like that. Lampe proved he could shoot, milos has proven he can shoot. What's this crap about Marbury being a great caliber shooter.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

KBF....

are you out of your mind?



> I am just going to post under the assumption you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Lampe shot the hell out of the ball in the summer leagues. He had a 3 point explosion. Milos is a good slasher and has a good midrange game.


Hello its the summer league ....He hasnt gotten a 3 points shot since then..

Milos hasnt played 1 minute in the NBA!!!!If he is soooo talented,why didnt Layden pay up and bring the savior over.....

KBF,can you at least let the guy play 1 minute in the USA before making these irrational statements??



> Clearly you don't watch Knick games, before we had steph and had houston ward and Van horn, teams would rarely through a zone at us, and if they did it was some kinda weird zone where there was lots of collapsing. Remember the game against Dallas??


HELLOOOOOOO....There was no need to play a zone before Steph got here.....There was no need to trap our point guard as he crossed midcourt!We had NOBODY who could create off the dribble..Why would you zone a team like that???You are missing the whole point as to why teams trap steph and throw zones against us

They play a zone against us now,because they dont want Steph breaking down the D and penetrating which he does at will..You want the ball out of his hands,and you dont want him going one on one....

Of course no one would zone Eisly,KVH,Houston,KT and DEKE...THey cant create!!!!!!!!!!!!

you are joking


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> KBF....
> 
> are you out of your mind?
> ...


The only thing irrational is your ridiculous comparisions to other leagues. Milos lead the Euroleague in scoring, if I am not mistaken two years in a row. Guess what? That pretty much means he can score in this league. 

You ever seen a star from that league play well in this one? Right you have. You ever seen a leading score from the NCAA do poorly in this league? Right rarely.


As for Lampe and the summer league, who gives a crap, an open look is an open look, come on man you watch basketball..




> HELLOOOOOOO....There was no need to play a zone before Steph got here.....There was no need to trap our point guard as he crossed midcourt!We had NOBODY who could create off the dribble..Why would you zone a team like that???You are missing the whole point as to why teams trap steph and throw zones against us



Teams zoned as quite a few times and payed for it dearly. Which games were you watching?



> They play a zone against us now,because they dont want Steph breaking down the D and penetrating which he does at will..You want the ball out of his hands,and you dont want him going one on one....
> 
> Of course no one would zone Eisly,KVH,Houston,KT and DEKE...THey cant create!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> you are joking


They actually moved away from zoning us for a while when we had KVH and Houston. It would be silly to cover a spot with a penetrator like marbury and good shooters on either side of the wing. 

They are going to go back to it, you'll see and it's efficacy will be based solely on how tempermental tim thomas and Shandon Andersen play.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Another huge point that you're missing is that. You are constantly saying steph can do this, steph can do that. No one is saying steph can't do anything. 

Steph is best when he just has to be a pointguard, not a shooter, a ball handler, a pentrator and a disher, and when he leaves the floor, what then? Penny? I hope he doesn't get injured, but he has little to no explosiveness? Frank Williams? Jury is still out.

Tim Thomas? The guy won't even play the 4 spot. See Sam Cassell for a summation of this guys attitude. A lot of talent, even more excuses.

Who else is left to hit the open shot? Who else is left to spread the defense to force the zone to explode?


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

http://www.hoopsanalyst.com/goodman16.htm

A nice statistical article on the 3pter.

Please note where Allan Houston, Charlie Ward, Latrell Sprewell, and Stephon Marbury's names can be found on this list.



> Who else is left to hit the open shot? Who else is left to spread the defense to force the zone to explode?


Moochie Norris.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Please note where Allan Houston, Charlie Ward, Latrell Sprewell, and Stephon Marbury's names can be found on this list.


Thanks for the link.

You seem to be making a point. What is it? Hmm, the clue must be in looking up those names.

Houston and Ward do well by the three, and we have Houston. Sprewell doesn't, and when traded him and our record got worse. We traded Ward and our record got better. So this article shows three point efficacy may be a bad thing for a team.

And Marbury is neither plussed or minused by it. Same as Van Horn and Tim Thomas. So why did you mention Marbury in particular?

I also look down that list and see that of the players that most benefit from the three they represent a hodgepodge of teams, good and bad. Certainly no worse than the list of players who suffer most by it.

So your point must be the same as mine, that three point efficacy isn't a great determinant of success. Thanks for backing me up for a change, partner.


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> I've been screaming about this for two months. Houston looks hobbled. That makes me real leary about giving up Lampe, Vujanic, and two first rounders.
> 
> If houston goes down this team has no, reliable shooter, and no three point threat. This means a box zone or a 3 2 zone would rape us nightly."





> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> I am just going to post under the assumption you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Lampe shot the hell out of the ball in the summer leagues. He had a 3 point explosion. Milos is a good slasher and has a good midrange game.
> 
> ...


Hey, all I do is post a simple post and I get all of this abuse? 

First, I will answer Knicks"Biggest"Fan's question. Of course I do know that Lampe can shoot. However, has he really proved that he can shoot (or even play) in the NBA yet? Summer league doesn't count, because you don't see your stars or good players playing in those games. Sure Lampe can hit the open three in a summer league game, and has a lot of talent i must agree, but he isn't going to help the Knicks now. When I posted, I was replying to your own post. You said that you were worried about the Knicks having no shooter after trading away Lampe, Vujanic, and two first rounders. I was simply pointing out that we didn't lose any shooters in the players you mentioned. Lampe COULD be a good shooter in a few years, but he wasn't going to help the Knicks this year. If houston went down, you think the Knicks would let Lampe play and have he beat the zone for them? No way, Lampe wouldn't have helped the Knicks beat the zone this year at all, which is what you were implying in your post. Vujanic isn't even playing in the NBA right now, so I don't see how he could help the Knicks this year either. That was my simple point. If you were talking about next year, then maybe you didn't consider that the Knicks could get a shooter in the offseason. Sure Vujanic and Lampe could help the Knicks beat the zone LATER, but not this year, which is what you were saying in your own post, Knicks"Biggest"Fan. 

Also, I know that Marbury isn't a pure shooter, but he does have a reliable outside shot that can help us beat the zone. Look at his percentages, which aren't great, but are still pretty decent.

And, the only reason I didn't count Van Horn is because you yourself were talking about the Marbury trade only. If we didn't make the Marbury trade and Houston went down, we would still have Van Horn for a shooter. You say that we gave up Van Horn for MArbury? Why do you think that? Marbury and Van Horn haven't been at each others' throats in NY, and were both playing well together. Explain to me how Van Horn would have fit into your first post. 



> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Why is every Knick fan in the world obsessed with THIS SEASON. Dolan puppets.
> 
> Huh? Lampe is a shooter, and Vujanic is more than likely at least as effective as Marbury from 3pt range (in other words, average at worst).


Rashidi, not every Knicks fan is obsessed with this season you know. For example, you aren't, right? If I remember correctly, you are a big fan of Dolan, so why are we considered Dolan puppets and you aren't? I'm begining to think that you change your beliefs to ones that are a minority on this board just so you can argue all day long. 

Anyway, as I was saying before, I was simplely responding to Knicks"Biggest"Fan's post. He said that he was leary about giving up our future, because then we would have no solution if Houston went down. Just stating that Vujanic and Lampe are not going to help us if Houston went down. Calm down.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Sure Vujanic and Lampe could help the Knicks beat the zone LATER, but not this year, which is what you were saying in your own post, Knicks"Biggest"Fan.


Again, why the obsession with this season?



> If I remember correctly, you are a big fan of Dolan, so why are we considered Dolan puppets and you aren't?


You remember incorrectly. Especially since you registered in January.



> Just stating that Vujanic and Lampe are not going to help us if Houston went down.


This season.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Dcrono,you have you keep in mind that SOME posters were very big Dolan supporters,in fact staunch supporters until Dolan fired layden and hired thomas..

I couldnt stand management,particuarly bin-layden and had many arguements with these staunch supporters who now no longer support management...


Gee,you mean Vujanic wont help us this season??????
Because he refused to come and play under layden???

And what season was he going to help us???
Should we just keep our fingers crossed and hope he comes over one day??

Thats a good way to run an organisation..Layden tried it and look what happened to him...

Dcrono,why dont you ask what these nannering neighbobs of negativity what they would have done if they were the owner with a league high payroll and a .333 winning percentage....

And since you werent here according to a senior board official,I can tell you that these very same people LIKED the Knicks chances and were quite content with a .333 winning percentage...

And good luck getting an answer..Just watch the topic change..


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Again, why the obsession with this season?
> ...


Rashidi, can't you just see? I was just replying to a post by someone else. About those players helping the Knicks if Houston went down THIS YEAR. Why don't you quote them then? 

Hey, maybe I registered in January, so what. I had another sn before and started using this one in January. For what its worth, I was here when Isiah came and Marbury trade happened, and you definately were a Layden supporter. And as Truth said, you were one before i came. I ask everyone who was here before, was Rashidi a Layden support or is he not like he now claims to be? I really want to be civil and nice with you Rashidi, but I can't if everytime you reply to my posts you diss me and never listen to my arguments.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Rashidi has always been a big supporter of Layden and it appears he stilll continues to be..I say appear because his way of making points is not to come out and simply be pro layden,but he will just rip Thomas for every move he makes....

Its just his style....I have asked him over and over what Thomas has to do to be successful in his opinion and NEVER got a direct answer....But he will come up with every excuse why layden was not responsible for the knicks team and .333 winning %......

I get bashed by Knicks biggest fan,sometimes Baller every now and then..But its cool,since they tell you EXACTLY how they feel and their clear opinion...

None of this,


> Especially since you registered in January


 ..stuff


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Surprisingly, he does seem to support the VH+MD for TT+NM trade, at least like I do, as somewhat lateral if nothing else.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

When is Houston coming back. I am sick and tired of Shandon Anderson playing so many damn minutes. He sucks so bad unless it is in a limited role. :upset:


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

True. Of all the trades, Houston for Shandon Anderson has hurt us the most.


----------

