# LeBron James - 2012-13 Most Valuable Player



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

So far, I'd say the likely candidates are LeBron, Durant and Melo. I think Kobe's playing at an MVP level but the Lakers' record won't help him right now. Thoughts?


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## 29380 (Feb 23, 2009)

My top 5:

1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Tim Duncan
5. Zach Randolph


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I'd say LeBron and KD are definitely the front runners followed by guys like Kobe, Randolph, CP3 etc.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Oh throw 'Melo in there too. Brainfart.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

To win it, LeBron will have to play much more exceptionally than he's playing right now. He's been content to hold back until he has to take over late in games, and the stats have reflected that. Guys like Greg Monroe and Larry Sanders have beaten him to a triple double this year, not to mention Durant and Bryant. Voter fatigue will be a factor. If the Heat have a far better record than the other top candidate, he may not need the transcendent stats, though.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

It might be Durant's year. They've been trying to get him one for a minute now but LeBron has been special these past few years.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

Right now it's Melo. This is just as much a story award as it is a production one. He has everything going for him: 1) Redemption. 2) Surprising record. 3) Missing his co-star. 4) Leading the NY revival. 5) Rounding out his game.


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

Luke said:


> *It might be Durant's year*. They've been trying to get him one for a minute now but LeBron has been special these past few years.





Jace said:


> *Right now it's Melo.* This is just as much a story award as it is a production one. He has everything going for him: 1) Redemption. 2) Surprising record. 3) Missing his co-star. 4) Leading the NY revival. 5) Rounding out his game.


*No.*


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

Dr., the quicker you realize LeBron is a terrible choke artist who only won a ring because Spo got it for him and Durant took it easy because he felt bad about getting a ring before The Chosen One, the quicker you'll stop embarrassing yourself here and in life.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Right now:

1. Kevin Durant
2. Carmelo Anthony
3. Lebron James


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

Just looked at the stats (should've done that before posting the first time). Durant's are clearly better than Melo's, but as we saw with Rose, the narrative often wins out. I'd personally give it to Kevin over Melo right now.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Anyone not from Memphis going to mention Zach Randolph or does he not get consideration because he's not much better than Gasol or Gay?


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

The michael jordan rule is in effect for me. Lebron is the best player in the league and he is on the best team. He wins it every year until that fact changes


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Jamel Irief said:


> Anyone not from Memphis going to mention Zach Randolph or does he not get consideration because he's not much better than Gasol or Gay?


I'm not from Memphis.


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

Durant
LeBron
Melo
Duncan
Randolph

in that order. Pretty clear top 5 right now.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> Anyone not from Memphis going to mention Zach Randolph or does he not get consideration because he's not much better than Gasol or Gay?


He's definitely better than Gay, but Gasol has been huge for them, too. Also Conley is playing a big role. If you had to pick an MVP candidate out of that bunch, would have to be ZBo, I'd assume. He hasn't completely separated himself enough for it not to be forced, though, I'd think.


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

roux2dope said:


> The michael jordan rule is in effect for me. Lebron is the best player in the league and he is on the best team. He wins it every year until that fact changes


This.

Nobody in the league is more Valuable to their team that what Lebron is to his team. Nobody. 


/Thread


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## akashaa01 (Dec 6, 2012)

i think Kevin Durant is now number 1 right now


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## Bleeding Gums Murphy (Nov 29, 2012)

I think Rondo should be thrown into the conversation. If he got a jump shot, he would be almost untouchable.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

*Kevin Durant or Carmelo Anthony. Who's your mvp right now?*

Alot of people and some media believe melo is the mvp because nobody expected the knicks to be number 1 seeded in the eastern conference and melo is playing like a superstar and all other stuff but what about durant? sure the knicks are 16-5 but the thunder are 18-4 and durant is playing out of his mind. And look at stats durant is leading in mostly every category over melo in points, assist, steals, rebounds, blocks, fg, freethrows. And people forgot, not many thought the thunder would still be this very good after harden was traded to the rockets.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Kevin Durant or Carmelo Anthony. Who's your mvp right now?*

Lebron James


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## 29380 (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Kevin Durant or Carmelo Anthony. Who's your mvp right now?*

1. Kevin Durant
2. Lebron James


#. Jason Kidd
#. Carmelo Anthony


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

*Re: Kevin Durant or Carmelo Anthony. Who's your mvp right now?*

LeBron, Durant, and 'Melo have all separated themselves from the rest of the pack so far. Obviously LeBron is the hands down best player in the league, so it *should* be him until that changes, but as we all know that is not necessarily always the case. The MVP goes to the best player with a great story, and so if Durant or 'Melo continue playing at their current pace one of the two will probably take home the hardware. I think that Durant's level of play is more sustainable than Anthony's so gun to my head I'm rolling with Durantula.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

*Re: Kevin Durant or Carmelo Anthony. Who's your mvp right now?*

Oh, so we're doing Carmelo Robinson and Lebron Olajuwon this spring? Wonderful.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

*Re: Kevin Durant or Carmelo Anthony. Who's your mvp right now?*



RollWithEm said:


> Lebron James


Really? Do tell.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

*Re: Kevin Durant or Carmelo Anthony. Who's your mvp right now?*



Knicks4life said:


> 1. Kevin Durant
> 2. Lebron James
> 
> 
> ...


James over Melo? hmmm i dont know about that and i love lebron with a passion.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

*Re: Kevin Durant or Carmelo Anthony. Who's your mvp right now?*

This is going to get weird isn't it...eh, I'm too late.


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## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

*Re: Kevin Durant or Carmelo Anthony. Who's your mvp right now?*

Durant, then Carmelo. I don't buy the Knicks continuing this type of play, and at the end of the day Durant is the better player on the better team.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

Definitely a three-horse race here at the 1/4 point.

1a. LeBron James
1b. Kevin Durant
3. Melo

LeBron has won three of the last four and nobody else can do what he does for his team night-in, night-out. Averaging 25.2 points, 8.8 rebounds and 6.8 assists is simply incredible. Let's remember Melo is averaging a measly 2 APG. Durant is right there with LeBron and to me there is virtually no seperation between the two at this point. My eye test says LeBron because it's his job to go out and get his team W's at the end of games (weather it be scoring or playmaking)...that's not always the case with Durant.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

Jace said:


> Dr., *the quicker you realize LeBron is a terrible choke artist who only won a ring because Spo got it for him and Durant took it easy because he felt bad about getting a ring before The Chosen One, the quicker you'll stop embarrassing yourself here and in life.*


That comment right there shows the only person should be embarrass is you. Lebron won a ring cause Durant took it easy and felt bad? That's one of the most terrible disgraceful comments any forum posters have ever say. You disrespecting what lebron has done last season and last playoffs. So i guess durant forgot to took it easy in game 1? This is beyond ridiculous.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

:drake:

I thought no one could possibly think that wasn't sarcasm. Holy hell. Congrats.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Right now, it's clearly between Durant and Anthony.


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## billyhoyle (Sep 24, 2012)

Melo probably just edging Durant atm. But I would be happy with either picks.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

It's funny when you compare the numbers of the top 3. This has Rose for MVP written all over it (NARRATIVE!).


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## 29380 (Feb 23, 2009)

A PF averaging 6 RPG has no place in an MVP discussion.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

To play devil's advocate, he's technically playing out of position. I think that's where some of the Melo-backing narrative comes in. People look at him as making this big sacrifice to pound with the big boys in the absence of a "superstar." But yeah, he's averaging less rebounds playing PF than Wade did in '11 playing further from the basket.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

Zach Lowe weighs in



> Most Valuable Player
> 
> 1. LeBron James, Miami Heat
> 2. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City Thunder
> ...


Here is his reasoning for Lebron over KD:



> This is a race, for now, between James and Durant, the two finest players in the league. And we have to start here: James is just better, even as Durant has closed the gap with what may end up as one of the greatest shooting seasons in league history — a 50/40/90 tour of NBA destruction. Durant is no. 2 in Player Efficiency Rating, and he has made incremental progress in every aspect of his game. He's increased both his assist totals3 and the quality of his assists, threading some smart passes out of the pick-and-roll and occasionally whipping one-handed cross-court lasers that make you rewind your DVR to make sure it was Durant.
> 
> He's also a better defender than he was last year, both one-on-one and as a helper. Opposing small forwards have recorded a laughable PER of just 7.9 with Durant on the court, and like the rest of his young Thunder brethren, he's moving to the right place at the right time more often away from the ball as he gains experience.
> 
> ...


It's an argument that's brilliant in its simplicity.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

Stat update:

*Kevin Durant* (43 GP)
29.6 PPG 
7.4 RPG
4.4 APG
1.6 SPG
1.3 BPG
52% FG / 42.1% 3P
39.7 MPG

*LeBron James* (39 GP)
26.5 PPG
8.2 RPG
7.1 APG
1.6 SPG
0.9 BPG
55% FG / 39.2% 3P
38.5 MPG


Per 36:

*Durant* 
26.9 PPG 
6.7 RPG
4.0 APG
1.4 SPG
1.1 BPG

*James* 
24.7 PPG
7.6 RPG
6.6 APG
1.5 SPG
0.8 BPG


Ridiculous numbers. Close enough to go either way right now, though most feel LeBron is having the better season.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jace said:


> *Ridiculous numbers. Close enough to go either way right now, though most feel LeBron is having the better season*.


Interesting fact: Durant his having back-to-back seasons with >.500FG%, >.4003PT% and >.900FT%.
Only 2 other players (Bird, Nash) have ever done that.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Lebron still runs this league but durant is one of the best players we've ever seen. Both are just incredible basketball players


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

Funnest MVP race since DWade vs. LeBron in 2009


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

roux2dope said:


> The michael jordan rule is in effect for me. Lebron is the best player in the league and he is on the best team. He wins it every year until that fact changes


Might be changing my tune to Mr. Durant


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

If voting happened today, I would hope Durant gets it.

For one, OKC simply has proven to be the better team and ultimately winning is the most important thing a player can do on the hardwood. Maybe that won't be the case in the playoffs but you can only go by what's been done this season, not by who is better on paper or in the playoffs. You also see the culmination of Durant's improvement in his all around game as having an impact, and he was already so good to begin with. 

Second, if you want to justify on the stat sheet, Durant is technically a more efficient scorer this year. Both Durant and Lebron average around 18.5 shots per game, but Durant is garnering 3 more PPG out of the same # of shot attempts. That goes to show the value of Durant's superior FT and 3-pt shooting (both in accuracy and volume).

People like to cite defense as boosting Lebron's argument, but Miami HAS slipped in that area (as opposed to last year when Miami was one of the best defenses in the league). Maybe not Lebron's fault per say but the fact of the matter is this is a team game.

And if it's truly too close to call, then just give the damn thing to Durant anyways. Michael Jordan is the GOAT and even he couldn't win MVP every single year; it's too boring to just give it to the best player every year. Just as with Jordan's era when they found reasons to give MVPs to guys like Barkley and Malone, it's fair to distribute MVPs to deserving elite players not named Lebron who are having outstanding seasons. Hell, Lebron already has 3 of them and will likely win a few more...whereas Jordan had 5 in his career. I'm not about to put Lebron over MJ just yet, he still has a long long ways to go.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

In fairness, you totally glossed over LeBron's playmaking, and unfairly punished him for the team's slippage in D. His D has still been great. The additions of Allen/Lewis to the rotation, as well as Chalmers and Haslem's awful/declining D have been the main culprits.

I've always felt it should be judged in a vacuum as much as possible. Give it to the guy who had the best season, even if he won the last 7. Even great players only have ephemeral playing careers. Let them rack up MVP after MVP if they earn it. I hate seeing them gifted to players because the basketball community felt it was their turn or were heartwarmed by their story or the best player has won too many.

I understand the record argument, but OKC's isn't drastically better, and you can make a strong case Durant has the better supporting cast. On top of that, Miami has won the only matchup thus far.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Jace said:


> In fairness, you totally glossed over LeBron's playmaking, and unfairly punished him for the team's slippage in D. His D has still been great. The additions of Allen/Lewis to the rotation, as well as Chalmers and Haslem's awful/declining D have been the main culprits.


It's not most versatile player, though. Value comes in many different packages; they don't always have be capable of doing every role on the court. And yeah it's unfair to punish one player for subpar D, but that's how the narrative goes. Voters like to spin it as who had the biggest impact on what the team accomplished. If the team didn't accomplish much on one side of the ball, then the MVP candidate may very well lose some brownie points. Not saying I agree with it, just some voters think of it that way. It was alot easier to justify Lebron last year when the Heat were excellent on both sides of the court. Besides, he will still make All-Defense 1st Team and get recognized for his individual D that way, I guarantee it.



> I've always felt it should be judged in a vacuum as much as possible. Give it to the guy who had the best season, even if he won the last 7. Even great players only have ephemeral playing careers. Let them rack up MVP after MVP if they earn it. I hate seeing them gifted to players because the basketball community felt it was their turn or were heartwarmed by their story or the best player has won too many.


I don't blame you for wanting it that way. But historically that's just not the way it is. The precedent has been set, especially with MJ winning MVP in less than half his seasons played, despite being the unanimous league's best player for most of his career. 



> I understand the record argument, but OKC's isn't drastically better, and you can make a strong case Durant has the better supporting cast. On top of that, Miami has won the only matchup thus far.


It's far from the only factor, true, but it does supply another piece of evidence for justifying picking one over the other, especially if voters are explicitly seeking a reason to give the award to a particular player.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Lebron is going to have to make them give it to him. If it's close then Durant is going to be taking the statue home.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Diable said:


> Lebron is going to have to make them give it to him. If it's close then Durant is going to be taking the statue home.


True. Voters have been dying to get durant the MVP since like 2010.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Diable said:


> Lebron is going to have to make them give it to him. If it's close then Durant is going to be taking the statue home.


Agreed, pretty much all I was saying in a nutshell.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

yodurk said:


> It's not most versatile player, though. Value comes in many different packages; they don't always have be capable of doing every role on the court. And yeah it's unfair to punish one player for subpar D, but that's how the narrative goes.


Wasn't pointing out his assists in order to demonstrate his superior versatility; it's just another important component of his overall production to consider. Not sure you wrote that last sentence as you intended. It's totally fair to punish one player for subpar D. There probably isn't enough of that in consideration. They both play good D, James' is just clearly better.



> Voters like to spin it as who had the biggest impact on what the team accomplished.


You mean in deciding between the top candidates? I don't know how you'd argue Durant has had a bigger impact over his team's success than LeBron on his. I don't think that's any sort of ultimate decider for voters. With stats nearly even, team record and the narrative attached to the team/player are typically major deciding factors.



> If the team didn't accomplish much on one side of the ball, then the MVP candidate may very well lose some brownie points. Not saying I agree with it, just some voters think of it that way. It was alot easier to justify Lebron last year when the Heat were excellent on both sides of the court. Besides, he will still make All-Defense 1st Team and get recognized for his individual D that way, I guarantee it.


A player like Dwight would lose more MVP pull for his team's declined D than LeBron. For one, your Dwights and KGs anchor the backline of defenses, thus the efficacy for more of an impact on team D. Secondly, that's their prominent contribution. LeBron's is clearly offensive, so his stellar D is icing, and to any knowledgeable mind his team's slippage on D has nothing to do with him. Also, people who watch the games know that the Heat have still been just as great on D for key stretches and with trusted lineups. It's clearly a personnel matter.

Of course he'll make the All-D First Team. There are 3 spots he can get in at (2-4). Kinda a lock. Not sure what that has to do with MVP though.



> I don't blame you for wanting it that way. But historically that's just not the way it is. The precedent has been set, especially with MJ winning MVP in less than half his seasons played, despite being the unanimous league's best player for most of his career.


OK. And I completely agree with that, but you're now changing the position of your argument from...



> If voting happened today, I would hope Durant gets it.


...to something along the lines of "I know it's not right but this is how the writers vote." I'm totally aware of all the ancillary factors clumsily thrown into MVP voting. I don't doubt the likelihood Durant has a cushion with voters. I was merely critiquing your reasoning for what appeared to be presented as your preference for the award. That's the trouble with discussing MVP races. Hard to tell if someone is arguing from the standpoint of what the voters will likely do, or who actually had the best season (i.e. what the voters _should _do). It's not like the voters get it wrong more often than not. I think they're often right. That's what makes the conversation difficult.



> It's far from the only factor, true, but it does supply another piece of evidence for justifying picking one over the other, especially if voters are explicitly seeking a reason to give the award to a particular player.


I think it's more of a factor in cases where the player with the better record (Rose) is seen to have the inferior supporting cast to the other candidate (LeBron). Not the case with this year's matchup. And again, it's not like we're talking Wade v. James in '09, where the stats were about even (Wade had the scoring edge), but the Heat won 43 games compared to the Cavs' 66. Huge disparity there.



Diable said:


> Lebron is going to have to make them give it to him. If it's close then Durant is going to be taking the statue home.


This exactly. Again, if I had to bet on it right now, I'm going Durant. In my first post in this thread I said LeBron's stats would have to be ridiculous, even for him, to win it again, unless his team's record is significantly ahead of the next best candidate. If it ended right now, it would be ridiculously close, though. I think voter fatigue and the long-awaited crowning are huge factors that could push Durant ahead. I definitely don't think it would be wrong to vote for him, as what I'd consider to be a legitimate case could be made for him in lieu of his scoring more efficiently than LeBron right now (Durant even has the higher offensive rating, which if I'm not mistaken factors in assists). Depends what you're looking for exactly.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Durant will win it.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Durant will win it.


Haven't seen you around here in a while, stick around.

I do agree that durant is going to win it. He's far and away the second best player in the world and the narrative is just too strong at this point barring something miraculous.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

The lockout kind of killed my frequency in visiting this forum. Lebron has been the best player in the league for awhile but I think based on this years performance alone you could argue that Durant has been better.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Yeah that happened to a lot of our regulars. Hopefully all of y'all will come back for good.

I can agree with that. This is still lebron's world but he's clearly been coasting a little bit this year and KD has been unreal.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> The lockout kind of killed my frequency in visiting this forum. Lebron has been the best player in the league for awhile but I think based on this years performance alone you could argue that Durant has been better.


You really couldn't.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

It would be a tough case, inevitably having its holes. People are eager to give it to KD, though, so it will be rationalized. 

Was thinking that if somehow KD and LBJ were hypothetically able to play the same exact seasons as last year, but with this year's backdrop/narrative, KD would win it. Heat would have to go on a major tear in the 2nd half of the season to give LeBron the edge if the stats remain close enough.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> The lockout kind of killed my frequency in visiting this forum. Lebron has been the best player in the league for awhile but I think based on this years performance alone you could argue that Durant has been better.


People are taking what Lebron does for granted. It's just more of the same. Dude has been the best player in the game since Shaq and Duncan faded, it's all become old hat. The public and the voters are going to look for something new to talk about.


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## Maravilla (Jul 6, 2010)

Bron will probably be a victim of expected greatness. I think the current run that he is on is pushing his candidacy though. He is on another plane right now.. even for him.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

People have taken LeBron for granted ever since they decided they wanted to dislike him for irrational reasons. A lot of those people are just apathetic now and acting in silence. It's a shame because they spoke too soon and now they either have to eat their words and enjoy him making history, or shut up and be stubborn. 

Statistically, the difference between Durant and LeBron is marginal. You can absolutely make a case for Durant. He has been an all-category player and leading scorer in the NBA while being historically efficient. LeBron certainly has the all-around game and defensive end of the court in his favor. 

I don't care either way. I just hope _neither_ player is taken for granted. LeBron is on another level, and I hope this doesn't make people overlook the historic season Durant is having. The two best players in the NBA right now are the best pair of perimeter players the league has seen in a long, long time. I think back to Kobe and McGrady, but even those two fall short in comparison. For those who followed me from back in 2007 and 2008 know how much I respect Kobe's game, but I don't think he ever had a season like LeBron or Durant this year. That's saying something.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> People have taken LeBron for granted ever since they decided they wanted to dislike him for irrational reasons. A lot of those people are just apathetic now and acting in silence. It's a shame because they spoke too soon and now they either have to eat their words and enjoy him making history, or shut up and be stubborn.
> 
> Statistically, the difference between Durant and LeBron is marginal. You can absolutely make a case for Durant. He has been an all-category player and leading scorer in the NBA while being historically efficient. LeBron certainly has the all-around game and defensive end of the court in his favor.
> 
> I don't care either way. I just hope _neither_ player is taken for granted. LeBron is on another level, and I hope this doesn't make people overlook the historic season Durant is having. The two best players in the NBA right now are the best pair of perimeter players the league has seen in a long, long time. I think back to Kobe and McGrady, but even those two fall short in comparison. For those who followed me from back in 2007 and 2008 know how much I respect Kobe's game, but I don't think he ever had a season like LeBron or Durant this year. That's saying something.


tl;dr

It's not close.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> People have taken LeBron for granted ever since they decided they wanted to dislike him for irrational reasons. A lot of those people are just apathetic now and acting in silence. It's a shame because they spoke too soon and now they either have to eat their words and enjoy him making history, or shut up and be stubborn.
> 
> Statistically, the difference between Durant and LeBron is marginal. You can absolutely make a case for Durant. He has been an all-category player and leading scorer in the NBA while being historically efficient. LeBron certainly has the all-around game and defensive end of the court in his favor.
> 
> I don't care either way. I just hope _neither_ player is taken for granted. LeBron is on another level, and I hope this doesn't make people overlook the historic season Durant is having. The two best players in the NBA right now are the best pair of perimeter players the league has seen in a long, long time. I think back to Kobe and McGrady, but even those two fall short in comparison. For those who followed me from back in 2007 and 2008 know how much I respect Kobe's game, but I don't think he ever had a season like LeBron or Durant this year. That's saying something.


Historic? Durant isn't doing anything people didn't see from Dirk from 04-07.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> People have taken LeBron for granted ever since they decided they wanted to dislike him for irrational reasons. A lot of those people are just apathetic now and acting in silence. It's a shame because they spoke too soon and now they either have to eat their words and enjoy him making history, or shut up and be stubborn.
> 
> Statistically, the difference between Durant and LeBron is marginal. You can absolutely make a case for Durant. He has been an all-category player and leading scorer in the NBA while being historically efficient. LeBron certainly has the all-around game and defensive end of the court in his favor.
> 
> I don't care either way. I just hope _neither_ player is taken for granted. LeBron is on another level, and I hope this doesn't make people overlook the historic season Durant is having. The two best players in the NBA right now are the best pair of perimeter players the league has seen in a long, long time. I think back to Kobe and McGrady, but even those two fall short in comparison. For those who followed me from back in 2007 and 2008 know how much I respect Kobe's game, but I don't think he ever had a season like LeBron or Durant this year. That's saying something.


It's certainly akin to Bird/Magic in prime form. Both are absurdly good right now, but I think LeBron is noticeably more dominant, on both ends. Regarding Durant's efficiency advantage, I'm not sure how many voters look at eFG%/TS%/O-rating. They might just see LeBron's 56% and say he's scoring more efficiently.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> Historic? Durant isn't doing anything people didn't see from Dirk from 04-07.


Dirk has never had a season as good as Durant is having.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Jace said:


> It's certainly akin to Bird/Magic in prime form. Both are absurdly good right now, but I think LeBron is noticeably more dominant, on both ends. Regarding Durant's efficiency advantage, I'm not sure how many voters look at eFG%/TS%/O-rating. They might just see LeBron's 56% and say he's scoring more efficiently.


Youre right, although the FG%/FT%/3PT% trio has gained media love recently with Nash/Dirk winning MVP.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Jace said:


> OK. And I completely agree with that, but you're now changing the position of your argument from...
> 
> ...to something along the lines of "I know it's not right but this is how the writers vote."


Not changing my argument at all, actually. I am basically just saying the precedent for the award has been determined long before Lebron arrived on the NBA scene, and within that precedent, I believe Durant simply "fits" as the MVP if the season ended today. Not going to beat a dead horse any more beyond that, as many other comments in this thread state similar points.


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## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

Can we rename this thread the LeBron James thread?


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

People get extremely caught up in the moment. All the media people I'm hearing right now are essentially saying LeBron has it locked up. There's still plenty of season left. This stretch has been absurd, but Durant is still within striking range.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

An interesting sub-point that came up earlier is, to what degree defensive performance should have an impact on the award. TBH, that is one of the least defined parts of the MVP and is very inconsistently weighted each year.

I have to believe offensive performance (both scoring and the "making teammates better" achievement) carries the vast majority of the weight; even as high as 90% if I had to put a number to it. Otherwise how did Steve Nash win 2 in a row, or Nowitzki winning one. 

But then you see how many MVPs were excellent 2-way players, probably more often than not.

On top of that, you have an All-Defensive Team but not an All-Offensive Team. So it begs the question, do you let great defenders get recognized via All-D Team, or do you try to lump that into the All-NBA and MVP discussions? If so, what degree?


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

The parameters are inconsistent. But I'm fine with a poor individual defender like Nash getting it when he has such a ridiculous offensive year and is the key to the league's best offense. It's certainly important when comparing two similar-impact players, though.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

_Statistically_ it might be close, but LeBron is infinitely more valuable as a distributor. He affects more possessions than Durant does when you compound points, ability to draw double teams and his *passing*. 

And defensively LeBron is better. I don't really see the argument whatsoever.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Durant the narrative was a better story than LeBron until his recent tear. So there's that. 


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

It'll be a better story when he gets one later on. _Durant finally gets over the hump and eclipses his rival. _I can see it now. He's still technically pre-prime and LeBron is at peak power while generating discussion on whether or not he's better than the best ever. Once LBJ gets to 5 to tie Mike, then we can get into voter fatigue and start giving it to guys who didn't have as strong of a season.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Dre said:


> _Statistically_ it might be close, but LeBron is infinitely more valuable as a distributor. He affects more possessions than Durant does when you compound points, ability to draw double teams and his *passing*.
> 
> And defensively LeBron is better. I don't really see the argument whatsoever.


IMO, you are right to an extent, but it also neglects a facet about Durant's presence that is frequently missed. Lebron _directly _affects almost every possession because he touches the ball on every possession in his point forward role and distributes better. Durant _indirectly _affects almost every possession because he is such an extreme threat to catch and shoot from nearly anywhere inside half court, that it creates invaluable spacing for his teammates in a different way from Lebron. The only thing with this is, it's impossible to quantify the benefit from Durant's standpoint beyond things like team scoring efficiency when he is/isn't on the floor. People are probably going to naturally weight this part of Lebron's game higher because it's just more easily understood and observed on paper. I've gotta believe this plays a big role in a guy like Westbrook being able to put up numbers like he does by getting into the lane, with the defense knowing that Durant guy is sitting out there waiting to kill you from deep. Not unlike what Ray Allen provided his teams for years, and still does in limited doses.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

LeBron has definitely pulled away with his recent tear. He has been unreal even for him over the past month, and that game against Oklahoma City will certainly weigh heavy in MVP voting. 

It's crazy he will likely be pulling down his 4th MVP. That puts him with Kareem, Jordan, Russell and Wilt with 4+. And he is only 28.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

It's crazier that he's actually deserved all of them without question. 


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## BobStackhouse42 (Oct 7, 2010)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It's crazy he will likely be pulling down his 4th MVP. That puts him with Kareem, Jordan, Russell and Wilt with 4+. And he is only 28.


And he should have gotten his 4th last year.


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

This should have been Lebron's fifth. And Durant isn't doing anything no one else has, he just having an extremely great season. It's pretty crazy though Durant is shooting 4 more freethrow's per game than Lebron. Almost the league's way of sayin "We gotta somehow Lebron slow down" Lebron's career freethrow's is 8.9 and right now he's at 6.7...with a post game and living in the post. Make's no sense.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

LeBron is, weirdly enough, pretty fairly officiated. He doesn't get absurd love like wade, durant, or cp3 get, but he doesn't get hated on like a Derrick rose does. 


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

No one outside of Miami will believe me on this one, but he's been terribly officiated this year. It's gotten a little better lately, but the first couple of months of the season were brutal. He was getting destroyed going to the hoop, and not getting calls that opponents were getting on the same court. Part of his FTs being down is because he was attacking less earlier in the season, but that could've been a result of the shitty officiating.



yodurk said:


> IMO, you are right to an extent, but it also neglects a facet about Durant's presence that is frequently missed. Lebron _directly _affects almost every possession because he touches the ball on every possession in his point forward role and distributes better. Durant _indirectly _affects almost every possession because he is such an extreme threat to catch and shoot from nearly anywhere inside half court, that it creates invaluable spacing for his teammates in a different way from Lebron. The only thing with this is, it's impossible to quantify the benefit from Durant's standpoint beyond things like team scoring efficiency when he is/isn't on the floor. People are probably going to naturally weight this part of Lebron's game higher because it's just more easily understood and observed on paper. I've gotta believe this plays a big role in a guy like Westbrook being able to put up numbers like he does by getting into the lane, with the defense knowing that Durant guy is sitting out there waiting to kill you from deep. Not unlike what Ray Allen provided his teams for years, and still does in limited doses.


And someone arguing LeBron's case can argue that all of the double teams he commands lead to open teammates, whether he gets the assists or not (hockey assist?). I don't think voters will go that deeply into rationalizing Durant.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

It's not a Yao situation and from what I've seen they're pretty fair. He gets normal superstar calls but it's not ridiculous like some of the players I mentioned above. All I'm saying is its incredible how he can still blow the other guys out of the water with a relatively conservative amount of help from the officials.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

It seems the refs are still trying to figure out how to officiate him.

Speaking of trying to figure out LeBron, finally finished watching the Thunder game yesterday. Amazing Brooks tried everyone from PG (Westbrook) to C (Perkins) guarding him. Shows what kind of revolutionary player he is.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

LeBron, no contest. 

Second I would go with Melo or Harden


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

What's your argument for them over Durant?


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Or Paul and Parker. The Knicks are playing .500 ball lately. Harden is going to get some votes, but his team is fighting for the 8th playoff spot and the four candidates ahead of him are on teams with the best records in the league. Harden has a case, but your team record is a big factor in MVP voting. He's not Andre Dawkins either.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

I forgot Parker. If the Spurs get the number one seed, I would pick him second. Paul's been injured and missed a few games.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

And they were awful when he was out. He hasn't missed enough games to hamper his bid.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

I wonder how much of an effect Twitter and other social media have on voters in this era.


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

Lyndon Baines Johnson


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

I've moved my TP9 piece ahead of my CP3. Their stats are almost a toss-up, maybe even an edge to Tony. Team breaks the tie.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Picking anybody but Lebron over Durant is just an attempt to go against the grain. Durant is clearly having a better season than anyone not named Lebron.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Picking anybody but Lebron over Durant is just an attempt to go against the grain. Durant is clearly having a better season than anyone not named Lebron.


Yup. The latest fad that's been making its way around the various media outlets this week is talking about Tony Parker as a serious MVP candidate. With all due respect to him and the season he's had, it's really absurd to consider voting for anyone but LeBron or Durant. LeBron should win, Durant should finish second and no one else should be anywhere close. If you want to argue Parker or any of the other guys for third, fine. Now I know that it doesn't make for interesting banter on ESPN, but you're just trying to be controversial or different for the sake of being different if you're seriously talking about anyone but LeBron and Durant.


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

This LeBron guy. lol.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I guess LeBron posted a PER of 38.5 in February. Crazy.


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## MVPportal (Feb 27, 2013)

Probably Lebron, i would like it to be Durant. Maybe even Toni Parker, Charles Barkley was right, he plays the best season in his career, and his team is currently the best in NBA. But, the way he plays lately, maybe it should be Al Horford .


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

/thread


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

:laugh: :wtf:


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)




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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

100x better than the Super Bowl shuffle.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Picking anybody but Lebron over Durant is just an attempt to go against the grain. Durant is clearly having a better season than anyone not named Lebron.


Picking Durant over lebron is an example of someone being a homer. 

At least Parker has the "best player on the best team" argument.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> Picking Durant over lebron is an example of someone being a homer.
> 
> At least Parker has the "best player on the best team" argument.


Good thing nobody is picking Durant over LeBron after LeBron turned in the best month in NBA history statistically. What was a slight edge in December and January is a clear edge in March. 

And the "best player on the best team" argument is a horrible one that has no merit.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Good thing nobody is picking Durant over LeBron after LeBron turned in the best month in NBA history statistically. What was a slight edge in December and January is a clear edge in March.
> 
> And the "best player on the best team" argument is a horrible one that has no merit.


Hopefully nobody is picking anyone over lebron or they're just absurd. There's degrees of "absurd ness" (word) I guess. 

Then again you think lebron turned in the best month in nba history statistically based on what?


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

Yeah the only thing I've heard about his Feb statistically was that no one (qualified) has shot 64% from the field over a month since KAJ in '83. Wouldn't make it best ever. Putting it in context in terms of position and style of play does shade it more favorably, though.


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## Laker Freak (Jul 1, 2003)

Shaq had multiple seasons where he shot over 60% from the field. I find it hard too believe he never shot 64% for an entire month.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

The qualifier is 15+ FGA/game I think.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Jace said:


> Yeah the only thing I've heard about his Feb statistically was that no one (qualified) has shot 64% from the field over a month since KAJ in '83. Wouldn't make it best ever. Putting it in context in terms of position and style of play does shade it more favorably, though.


I think he was either speaking in hyperbole or didn't think his statement through before he said it. I hope so at least. 


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I think he was referring to PER.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I want to see better statistical months than LeBron just had. Maybe Jordan in the 80's had something similar? Possibly Shaquille or David Robinson in their prime? It's all opinion on what statistics you choose to value, but I doubt you'll find too many 30ppg, 8rpg, 8apg, 64%FG, 43%3pt, 81%FT with a couple blocks and steals in addition. He had a PER of 38+ in February. Given that 31.8 is the highest PER ever for a season (Wilt and Jordan), it's reasonable to conclude that a PER of 38.5 over 1/6 of a season is probably one of the highest, if not the highest. That's just unreal. 

Maybe I'm totally out of line, and if so, I would like to see who did better and when, just for informations sake. Maybe it's not all that good of a month historically. I'll defer to the facts when presented with them.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I want to see better statistical months than LeBron just had. Maybe Jordan in the 80's had something similar? Possibly Shaquille or David Robinson in their prime? It's all opinion on what statistics you choose to value, but I doubt you'll find too many 30ppg, 8rpg, 8apg, 64%FG, 43%3pt, 81%FT with a couple blocks and steals in addition. He had a PER of 38+ in February. Given that 31.8 is the highest PER ever for a season (Wilt and Jordan), it's reasonable to conclude that a PER of 38.5 over 1/6 of a season is probably one of the highest, if not the highest. That's just unreal.
> 
> Maybe I'm totally out of line, and if so, I would like to see who did better and when, just for informations sake. Maybe it's not all that good of a month historically. I'll defer to the facts when presented with them.


You do know wilt averaged 50 points and 25 boards a game for a season right?


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> You do know wilt averaged 50 points and 25 boards a game for a season right?
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Someone get XxIrvingxX and The Big Dipper in here to handle this.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

hobojoe said:


> Someone get XxIrvingxX and The Big Dipper in here to handle this.


You referenced PER. 
You failed.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Ha. If only I knew how to rep on my phone, hobojoe.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

PACE!


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## WithHotCompanyInMiami (Feb 9, 2013)

What an joke if Kobe Bryant get this years MVP because of Lakers' latest run and now being on a playoff position. :whoosh:


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Y'all are full of shit :2ti:

Y'all hinge on PER any other time but LeBron apparently has a 36 from what I heard on ESPN and people are trying to debate this


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## BIGDIMITRI007 (Mar 12, 2013)

In all honesty, im a celtic fan but i still think lebron would be the MVP


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

hobojoe said:


> Someone get XxIrvingxX and The Big Dipper in here to handle this.


I'M HERE! EVERYONE RELAX ITS ALL GOOD!

*waits patiently in corner*


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

You're not here to just stand there and look pretty. Get to work!


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

So I know LeBron is the clear cut MVP, but what does your Top 5 look like?

LeBron
Durant
Chris Paul
Carmelo
Kobe


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Chris Paul 
Carmelo Anthony
Tony Parker

I can't in good conscious put Kobe in the top 5. There are players having equal or better seasons statistically while leading teams with better records that have less talent.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

If Parker or Paul had stay healthy all year they'd both probably have as good an argument for second as Durant


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> LeBron James
> Kevin Durant
> Chris Paul
> Carmelo Anthony
> ...


Even with Kobe's injury he's going to have quite a few more games played than Parker, and he's second in the league in minutes per game. 78 games at 38.6 mpg is a pretty massive difference from 65 games at 33 mpg, as long as the Lakers are a playoff team I would put Kobe over TP.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

BlakeJesus said:


> Even with Kobe's injury he's going to have quite a few more games played than Parker, and he's second in the league in minutes per game. 78 games at 38.6 mpg is a pretty massive difference from 65 games at 33 mpg, as long as the Lakers are a playoff team I would put Kobe over TP.


What about Harden? Curry? Kobe is top 10 MVP candidate, but there are players doing more with less from a team standpoint, and statistically at least equal or better. The Warriors and Rockets are better than the Lakers with less firepower behind their top player.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Do they really have less firepower? Games aren't played on paper, they're played on a basketball court. Nash played 50 games this season, and he's looked very pedestrian when he does play. Pau Gasol has played 48 games, and though Dwight has only missed a handful of games it's very obvious that he did not start the season anywhere near 100%. They've had 2 different coaches, and poor health across the board (Steve Blake only played 44 games, Jordan Hill went down after 29 games). Their expectations were high, but that's because we and the media hyped them up because we assumed best case scenario.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

BlakeJesus said:


> Do they really have less firepower? Games aren't played on paper, they're played on a basketball court. Nash played 50 games this season, and he's looked very pedestrian when he does play. Pau Gasol has played 48 games, and though Dwight has only missed a handful of games it's very obvious that he did not start the season anywhere near 100%. They've had 2 different coaches, and poor health across the board (Steve Blake only played 44 games, Jordan Hill went down after 29 games). Their expectations were high, but that's because we and the media hyped them up because we assumed best case scenario.


Yes they have less firepower. This is a bunch of excuses. It's not Kobe's fault the team sunk, but they certainly underachieved even given their injuries. I'm a big advocate of individual performance being valued above team performance in determining individual awards, and Kobe had a fine season, but no better than players who led overacheiving teams putting up equal or better individual numbers. It doesn't make much sense to put Kobe over those guys unless you value reputation over output. It's crazy to think the Lakers might have two 1st teamers this year and possibly miss the playoffs. That's just an insane level of underachieving.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

If you put Parker, Harden, or Curry on the lakers in place kobe are they better than they were this year? I say no.


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

Luke said:


> If you put Parker, Harden, or Curry on the lakers in place kobe are they better than they were this year? I say no.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


You put any of those 3 on the Lakers instead of the Kobe...Thats 60+ wins. No question, most matter a fact thing of all time in life in general. 

Kobe has Dwight Pau, and Nash...and Artest. That starting lineup besides Kobe himself is ALOT BETTER than Hardens, Curry's and Parkers.

Like come on give Kobe David Lee....and lets see that team work. 

Curry has DAVID LEE. HARDEN HAS JEREMY LIN.

GIVE THEM JUST DWIGHT...THATS IT......JUST DWIGHT. AND YOU WILL SEE AN AMAZING TEAM.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

If you disregard the balance of positions being off (Lakers were built around a SG), I think the Lakers would have been better with those guys. That's really irrelevant though because there is no way to prove it either way.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

So...LeBron won this. One vote shy of him being the first player to win it unanimously. The other vote went to Carmelo Anthony.


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