# MERGED: Brown on Chapu:"He Ain't Dirty"



## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Before the contest, Brown heaped praise on Nocioni. Brown faced the Bulls’ rookie forward in the Olympics last summer and earlier this season at the Palace of Auburn Hills, Detroit collected 3 technical fouls complaining about plays by Nocioni
> “He was like that every game in the Olympics,” Brown said. “I don’t think it’s dirty. If it was dirty, I’d have a problem. He’s aggressive and he plays hard. That’s the way we should all play.
> “I respect that. I think most coaches in the league would love to coach a kid like him. That’s why (Argentina) won (the gold medal) … their passion to win was so great.”


Brown after game:



> “There was a cheap shot in that game. A real cheap shot,” Brown said early in his postgame news conference without prompting. “As hard as both teams played, it’s real disappointing.”


http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/bulls.asp?id=112 

Billups:



> "We have to feel a little fortunate to come out of this with a win because the Bulls really played hard and are a very good team that's going to be good for a long time,'' Billups said. "They don't play dirty. They just play hard, especially on defense.''


http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bull122.html


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## madox (Jan 6, 2004)

*Re: Brown on Chapu:"He Ain't Dirty"*

That was the first time I've ever seen someone catch an elbow like that in a professional basketball game. 

Very disturbing.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

*Re: Brown on Chapu:"He Ain't Dirty"*

I don't know if its just me but I don't mind being called dirty anyways. 

Detriot is a tough team like us, so you don't have to listen to a bunch of 6'6" guys covered in tatoos whining about how we play defense too aggresivily (and when it's called dirty you know we are in that players head)

I missed the game yesterday and din't see the elbow, so I can't comment on that.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Brown on Chapu:"He Ain't Dirty"*

Who elbowed whom?


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Brown on Chapu:"He Ain't Dirty"*

On ADs terrible pass in overtime, Prince was playing pretty good denial ball defense. Nocioni faked to his left then tried to put his left arm over Prince's left arm (so he could get leverage to get by). Prince shuffled his feet, and Noc's elbow caught Prince pretty much square in the eye (or might have been slightly above the eye).

It was an ugly elbow, but I don't see how anyone could think it was intentional, or a "cheap shot."

That was the only sort of redeeming part about AD turning the ball over, was that Nocioni should have been called for the offensive foul, but the refs missed it.


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## madox (Jan 6, 2004)

*Re: Brown on Chapu:"He Ain't Dirty"*

I was being sarcastic. 

Someone catches an elbow in just about every game.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

*Detroit declares Nocioni "Dirty".*

Prince crowned by Nocioni elbow

My favorite quote is at the end.



> Teammate Tyson Chandler jokingly said he understands.
> 
> "Noce could get me a technical, and I'm on the same team," Chandler said. "He steals my rebounds."


Tyson is quickly becoming my favorite bull.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Detroit declares Nocioni "Dirty".*

I could care less what other teams think of our players, especially Nocioni. It's players like Noch that add a certain "toughness" element that's hard to find, and it can often put a team over the top. Bruce Bowen has been labeled "dirty" by many players around the league, but he was a key ingredient to the Spurs' championship run. Rick Fox was a dirty wing defender who frustrated opponents during the Lakers championship runs (most notably Peja when the Kings almost took down the Lakers). And you don't think Ben Wallace gets away with extra holding and grabbing all the time in the post? Please. I would almost go so far to say that it's a MUST to have at least 1 or 2 players in your rotation who play physical defense like this if you want to win a championship.

As for the incident at hand, this was just another clumsy accident by Nocioni. I saw the replay several times, and it looked to me Noch was trying to curl around Tayshaun's long arms for the inbounds pass. "Cheap shot" is certainly an excessive word because it did not look intentional at all. But Noch does need to be less clumsy, that's for sure.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

*K.C.: Prince crowned by noc elbow; Noc, "But I'm a good guy"*

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=27 

Andres Nocioni continued his habit of inciting the Pistons on Monday night when he inadvertently hit Tayshaun Prince with an elbow to the head.

Replays showed Nocioni trying to swing his arm free as he went to break toward an inbounds pass. Prince, denying Nocioni the ball, fell hard to the court.

House - Content Promotion

"It definitely was a cheap shot," Prince said. "I know he's that type of player."

Detroit coach Larry Brown agreed and called the "cheap shot very disappointing."

"I play hard, but it's not my intention," Nocioni said. "I play clean. It's an accident. I said I'm sorry."

"He's one of those defenders who tries to get under your skin," Pistons guard Richard Hamilton said. "He's a great actor. He knows how to hit you and when you hit him back, he knows how to flop. He's very crafty. He tries to bump you. But you have to keep moving. You can't get into his little game."

"In Spain, it was the same way," Nocioni said. "Everybody is angry with me. But I'm a good guy. It's not my problem. It's their problem."

*"Noce could get me a technical, and I'm on the same team," Chandler said. "He steals my rebounds."*

:biggrin: love the last bit.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Detroit declares Nocioni "Dirty".*

The only "dirty" play that I have seen Nocioni make all season was that little shove after the end of the hard foul on Wade where he bit on the fake.

Nocioni approaches the game like every game is a playoff game. If he's going to get faked into a foul, then he better be sure that that player is not going to have a three-point play attempt (see the Vince Carter throwdown and the hard foul on Wade). Most NBA players don't play this way until the playoff stretch at the end of the season where the energy and defense are turned up.

Cartwright would have loved Noc.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

*Re: KC: Detroit declares Nocioni "Dirty."*

Nocioni is a winner plain and simple. It pains me to say this as a Dukie but boy Deng will have a hard time getting the starting SF job back next year.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: K.C.: Prince crowned by noc elbow; Noc, "But I'm a good guy"*



such sweet thunder said:


> http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=27
> 
> Andres Nocioni continued his habit of inciting the Pistons on Monday night when he inadvertently hit Tayshaun Prince with an elbow to the head.
> 
> ...


+rep for Hamilton, Nocioni, and Chandler
-rep for Prince
unch for Brown as he was protecting his player


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

*Re: KC: Detroit declares Nocioni "Dirty."*



> "In Spain, it was the same way," Nocioni said. "Everybody is angry with me. But I'm a good guy. It's not my problem. It's their problem."
> 
> "Noce could get me a technical, and I'm on the same team," Chandler said. "He steals my rebounds."


Man I love this team!

"It's not my problem, it's their problem", that is great. Between that and his new hair cut Noce just earned big points with me.

Against Prince what is Noce suppose to do but muscle him? Prince is taller, quicker, and has a much longer wingspan. But he is built like he's from a bad neighborhood in struggling third world country.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Brown on Chapu:"He Ain't Dirty"*

i merged the nocioni threads - hope that's ok with everyone!


the best bit was this from rasheed from the daily herald article: 




> A few seconds later, Prince did see tape of the incident. The Pistons’ video coordinator held a laptop inside the Pistons’ locker room and aired the play for Prince, Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace to see.
> 
> *Rasheed Wallace reacted with his best Howard Cosell imitation, yelling, “Down goes Prince! Down goes Prince!”*



http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sportsstory.asp?id=112


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## Benny the Bull (Jul 25, 2002)

*Re: KC: Detroit declares Nocioni "Dirty."*



Basghetti80 said:


> Nocioni is a winner plain and simple. It pains me to say this as a Dukie but boy Deng will have a hard time getting the starting SF job back next year.


I don't think Deng will have any problem getting his starting job back since he is superior player to Nocioni. I like the energy Nocioni brings off the bench anyway.

I didn't see the incident so I can't say whether it was dirty or not, but Nocioni has helped the Bulls establish a reputation of being tough, along with other players that will help them in the future.


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## Copper (Dec 9, 2004)

*Re: KC: Detroit declares Nocioni "Dirty."*

Against Prince what is Noce suppose to do but muscle him? Prince is taller, quicker, and has a much longer wingspan. But he is built like he's from a bad neighborhood in struggling third world country.[/QUOTE]

So, your theory is " if you cant beat em, beat em up" ? Prince is not the type of player to cry foul and accuse anyone of being dirty unless he feels they are. Prince has shown since he entered the league that he is level headed and very poised, for him to feel this way about nocioni there is defenitely something there. Andres is gonna earn himself a reputation that he doesnt want real soon if he keeps commiting these types of foolish plays. And it will probably be his more talented teammates that it ends up effecting.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: KC: Detroit declares Nocioni "Dirty."*

There are a couple of expressions that come to mind regarding this situation about black pots and throwing stones from glass houses.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

I copied my post from the thread I started on Jay Mariotti's latest column, and I'm putting the post here as well, since it fits the topic.

--------

Its too bad that Jay had to take that nice article about concern for Eddy and start another one of his soapbox campaigns. It appears Noc has caught The Wrath of Mariotti, which means the latest Jay Broken Record has been set to spin. Against Nocioni, whom he calls a thug, a goon, and dirty player, plaing in a thugfest, all in the course of a 2 paragraph rant, wrapped around two Pistons quotes about Noc, in the middle of a column about Eddy Curry.



> In the case of Andres [The Thug] Nocioni, the battle continues to spill out of control -- to the detriment of his reputation. Not a week after gooning up Dwyane Wade in Miami and launching a war of words between Scott Skiles and Heat coach Stan Van Gundy, Nocioni's elbow caught Tayshaun Prince in the skull and knocked him to the floor for a couple of minutes in the extra period.
> 
> "It was a cheap shot, a real cheap shot,'' Pistons coach Larry Brown said. "As hard as both teams played, it was pretty disappointing.''
> 
> ...


And no, I don't think "The Argentenian Rodman" is remotely an accurate comparison. And despite a low scoring game marked by relentless D by both teams, I don't think the game was even close to "a throwback to the old Bulls-Bad Boys bloodbaths."

Typical JM over-the-top histrionics.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

*Re: KC: Detroit declares Nocioni "Dirty."*



Copper said:


> Against Prince what is Noce suppose to do but muscle him? Prince is taller, quicker, and has a much longer wingspan. But he is built like he's from a bad neighborhood in struggling third world country.
> 
> So, your theory is " if you cant beat em, beat em up" ? Prince is not the type of player to cry foul and accuse anyone of being dirty unless he feels they are. Prince has shown since he entered the league that he is level headed and very poised, for him to feel this way about nocioni there is defenitely something there. Andres is gonna earn himself a reputation that he doesnt want real soon if he keeps commiting these types of foolish plays. And it will probably be his more talented teammates that it ends up effecting.


 I think Andres wants that reputation. He's just asking for it.

If it means anything, Prince was inbounding the ball and before that, Noc went up to him and asked him if he was ok, Prince gave him a nod. I was surprised to hear Prince's reaction to the elbow. I thought he thought it was incidental. Guess not.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

*Re: KC: Detroit declares Nocioni "Dirty."*

"Noce could get me a technical, and I'm on the same team," Chandler said. "He







steals







my







rebounds."


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: KC: Detroit declares Nocioni "Dirty."*



spongyfungy said:


> "Noce could get me a technical, and I'm on the same team," Chandler said. "He
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: 

Classic.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

I'm going to say it: Tayshaun Prince is a big faker.

Didn't anyone else here think, after seeing the replay, that Noch's elbow just barely grazed Prince's head? It looked to me, to paraphrase everyone's favorite WGN play-by-play man, like the slightest of glancing blows. The only thing I could think was Noch's elbow might have rubbed across Prince's eyeball which would have caused irritation. But Prince didn't react that way. He acted like he had been hit across the head with a sledgehammer.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

You don't have to work so hard with the pix. Just like last quote, all you have to do is find the subliminal message....

"Noce could get me a technical, and I'm on the same team," Chandler said. "He steals my rebounds."

"Noce could get *m*e a technical, and I'm *on* the same t*e*am," Chandler said. "He steals m*y* rebounds."


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Dude, the elbow opened up a cut. As the Pistons were getting ready to inbound they had to stop play to get him cleaned up.

When a guy is at the center of conflict in a game on what is seemingly a weekly basis, there might be something to it. Now when he's involved with a play like this, people are going to look at it like there was something extra involved, whether that's true or not. He's earned himself that reputation.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

Well, for all the high-profile incidents, he has yet to be suspended or even fined by the league, so they must not see anything to it when they watch the video.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Mike luvs KG said:


> Dude, the elbow opened up a cut. As the Pistons were getting ready to inbound they had to stop play to get him cleaned up.
> 
> When a guy is at the center of conflict in a game on what is seemingly a weekly basis, there might be something to it. Now when he's involved with a play like this, people are going to look at it like there was something extra involved, whether that's true or not. He's earned himself that reputation.


One could easily say the same about Ben "the thug" Wallace. Or have all pistons fans, in their righteous indignation forgotten so quickly the disgrace that was the "Arch Rivals" (the video game), performance put on by Ben and Jermaine Oniel. BTW--He should have been suspended longer too.....


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

bullsville said:


> Well, for all the high-profile incidents, he has yet to be suspended or even fined by the league, so they must not see anything to it when they watch the video.


Unlike some players we know....


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Mike luvs KG said:


> Dude, the elbow opened up a cut. As the Pistons were getting ready to inbound they had to stop play to get him cleaned up.
> 
> When a guy is at the center of conflict in a game on what is seemingly a weekly basis, there might be something to it. Now when he's involved with a play like this, people are going to look at it like there was something extra involved, whether that's true or not. He's earned himself that reputation.


No one is saying that Nocioni did not elbow Prince.

The fact that it was a "cheap shot" can only be labeled as such because the refs missed the play and did not call Nocioni for the offensive foul (as he should have). It was good defense by Prince that made Nocioni try and release towards the ball which caused the elbow.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

Ladewski :


> Pistons forward Tayshaun Prince was elbowed above the left eye by Nocioni on the play. Although television replays appeared to show the blow was accidental, both Prince and Pistons head coach Larry Brown called it "a cheap shot."
> 
> Then again, the Pistons whined repeatedly to the referees throughout the series.
> *
> "Larry Brown can watch the tape," said Nocioni, who scored 12 points and grabbed 10 rebounds. "I never play with bad intentions. He talks a lot. Maybe he is the best coach in the NBA, but I don't want to listen to him."*


http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/121sd1.htm


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

"He talks a lot."

Sounds like Nocioni has been reading up on Brown.

You think maybe Larry is a little jealous that he couldn't get his team of All-Stars to play the way Andres did in Athens? You don't think Larry would have been estatic if the 'dream team' would have actaully played as a 'team' like the Argentinians?


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

I've watched the replays over and over and I don't think Noc was "gooning it up" against Wade or Prince. I think Noc's D is physical, but not dirty, and he does a great job of getting under opponents' skin. I think coaches are starting to complain about him not because he truly is a goon, but to try to get the refs to watch Noc more closely on all the little bumps and pulls that he gets away with.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Just sad that the focus is on an elbow, when Noch hit a couple huge 3 pointers that <i>should</i> have sealed it in OT.

Saw the end of yesterday's game and it didn't look dirty to me. Prince wasn't cut, though they held a towel up to his head for a few minutes. Cuts on your face don't clot that quickly, obviously. Noch even came up to Prince afterward (he was inbounding) to make sure he was okay. Brown as usual was crying the whole game so why not continue it in the post-game? What I find most satisfying about beating the Pistons is Brown's meltdown's during the close of these games. Too bad we couldn't see another one


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Rhyder said:


> No one is saying that Nocioni did not elbow Prince.
> 
> The fact that it was a "cheap shot" can only be labeled as such because the refs missed the play and did not call Nocioni for the offensive foul (as he should have). It was good defense by Prince that made Nocioni try and release towards the ball which caused the elbow.


Whether you want to consider it a cheap shot or not, I don't really care. It probably wasn't intentional, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a dirty play. He cleared space with his elbows, which, for reference, is supposed to be an automatic ejection if contact is made above the shoulders. 

Nocioni just has very dirty style of play, that was obvious as far back as the olympics, he probably honestly doesn't mean to hurt people, but that doesn't make it any less dirty or less cheap.

Doesn't mean you have to dislike the guy or anything like that, just accept the fact that it is what it is.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Mike luvs KG said:


> Whether you want to consider it a cheap shot or not, I don't really care. It probably wasn't intentional, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a dirty play. He cleared space with his elbows, which, for reference, is supposed to be an automatic ejection if contact is made above the shoulders.
> 
> Nocioni just has very dirty style of play, that was obvious as far back as the olympics, he probably honestly doesn't mean to hurt people, but that doesn't make it any less dirty or less cheap.
> 
> Doesn't mean you have to dislike the guy or anything like that, just accept the fact that it is what it is.


You do realize that Detroit and Chicago's current teams are cut from the same cloth don't you? So Wallace can hip check Gordon out of bounds, Hunter can make no attempt at ball on a layup (while smiling and walking away afterwards), Rip can use that precious face mask to dig into other players like he's been doing all season, and of course Brown can cry about anything and everything within his sight... not to mention cross half court if he's not happy with a play. I don't think Detroit fans should be casting the first stone at the Bulls style of play. JMO


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

And speaking of high elbows, the only player in the league who swings high elbows MORE THAN BEN WALLACE (especially after rebounds) is Shaquille Oniel. But then I'm sure in those instances its incidental and he shouldn't be ejected right?? :whatever: :whatever: :whatever:


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

The 'Bad Boys' can apparently dish it out, but they can't take it.

As far back as Game 4 of the 1991 EC Finals when Isiah and the girls walked out on the final seconds of their destruction, the ladies from Detriot love to play physical ball vs the meek, they just can't handle a little retribution.

 Well, get used to it Piston fan, the Bulls are back, and they aren't taking crap any more than their ancestors from the early '90s.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

The road is long with many awaiting turns
That lead us to who knows where,
who knows where
But I'm strong,
strong enough to carry him
He ain't dirty, he's my Chapu

So long we go
His welfare is my concern
No burden is he to bear, we'll get there

For I know
he would not encumber me
He ain't dirty, he's my Chapu

If I'm laden at all,
I am laden with sadness that
everyone's heart isn't filled with the gladness
I am alone for one and other

It's so long long road
From there is no return
while we're on the way to live why not share

And the load doesn't weigh me down at all
He ain't dirty, he's my Chapu

He's my Chapu
He ain't dirty
He's my Chapu
He's my Chapu
He ain't dirty
He's my Chapu


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> The road is long with many awaiting turns
> That lead us to who knows where,
> who knows where
> But I'm strong,
> ...



+reputation... :clap:


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## lorgg (Dec 8, 2003)

*Re: KC: Detroit declares Nocioni "Dirty."*



Copper said:


> Against Prince what is Noce suppose to do but muscle him? Prince is taller, quicker, and has a much longer wingspan. But he is built like he's from a bad neighborhood in struggling third world country.


 So, your theory is " if you cant beat em, beat em up" ? Prince is not the type of player to cry foul and accuse anyone of being dirty unless he feels they are. Prince has shown since he entered the league that he is level headed and very poised, for him to feel this way about nocioni there is defenitely something there. Andres is gonna earn himself a reputation that he doesnt want real soon if he keeps commiting these types of foolish plays. And it will probably be his more talented teammates that it ends up effecting.[/QUOTE]
You obviously didn't see the replay or you'd know it was unintentional. What did the "Bad Boys" in Detroit do for 2 yrs winning the championship? Paybacks are hell. 
Noc. was was bringing his arm over to get open, plain and simple. Prince wasn't playing at the same speed and got whacked.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

I think the bottomline is Coach Browns Words of Nocioni:



> *“I respect that. I think most coaches in the league would love to coach a kid like him. That’s why (Argentina) won (the gold medal) … their passion to win was so great.”*


And coach Brown knows a little about defense and tough play.

Every good team needs guys like him , and so do we.

Thats his style , he ain't Dirty , he's just hyper aggressive :biggrin:


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

superdave said:


> You do realize that Detroit and Chicago's current teams are cut from the same cloth don't you?


Of course I realize that. That's why I like the Bulls. I get the WGN games and watch them whenever they are on. 

http://basketballboards.net/forum/showpost.php?p=2112868&postcount=18




> So Wallace can hip check Gordon out of bounds, Hunter can make no attempt at ball on a layup (while smiling and walking away afterwards), Rip can use that precious face mask to dig into other players like he's been doing all season


What are you even talking about? Rip digging into people with his facemask? Did you just make that up now? Lindsey making no attempt at the ball on a layup? The only layup I remember is when he got a clean block up top but got too much body down low on a Tayshaun style block attempt.

Detroit has a reputation of playing hard, but I don't think they are dirty. Tough, but not dirty. They don't have enough depth to play dirty. They rely on all the starters for 35+ minutes a game and really can't afford to pick up cheap fouls so they play everything pretty clean. In pior years, yeah, they were dirty as hell, expecially under Carlisle. They won 50 games with Chucky Atkins, Cliff Robinson, and Michael Curry in the starting lineup by employing the "they can only call one foul per play" strategy. This team, this year, the starters protect themselves a lot more. The dirty repuation is just that, reputation.

And keep in my mind by dirty I don't mean they are out to hurt people, but know and employ all the little tricks. Deadlegging screen setters, holding help defenders under the basket, etc... that kind of thing.

When I watch the Bulls, I see a lot of that kind of stuff. It's not a bad thing at all and it shouldn't be surprising, Skiles was that tough type of player and obviously he's going to impart that on his team. It just follows that it also shouldn't be surprising when they collect a high number of fouls. It's the price you pay for intimidation.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

superdave said:


> You do realize that Detroit and Chicago's current teams are cut from the same cloth don't you? So Wallace can hip check Gordon out of bounds, Hunter can make no attempt at ball on a layup (while smiling and walking away afterwards), Rip can use that precious face mask to dig into other players like he's been doing all season, and of course Brown can cry about anything and everything within his sight... not to mention cross half court if he's not happy with a play. I don't think Detroit fans should be casting the first stone at the Bulls style of play. JMO


Exactly, if the Bulls are dirty and cheap, the Pistons are too. That's how they won the title last year. That's why Larry Brown respected it before the game, but once he goes against it, he knows what other teams coaches and players have been complaining about.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

superdave said:


> Just sad that the focus is on an elbow, when Noch hit a couple huge 3 pointers that <i>should</i> have sealed it in OT.



this is so true. how much do you want to bet that if the bulls win this game, that there is no mention of any of this in the papers. bulls lose, so we search for conversation. oh, well. makes for good conversation.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

*Re: KC: Detroit declares Nocioni "Dirty."*



lorgg said:


> So, your theory is " if you cant beat em, beat em up" ? Prince is not the type of player to cry foul and accuse anyone of being dirty unless he feels they are. Prince has shown since he entered the league that he is level headed and very poised, for him to feel this way about nocioni there is defenitely something there. Andres is gonna earn himself a reputation that he doesnt want real soon if he keeps commiting these types of foolish plays. And it will probably be his more talented teammates that it ends up effecting.



Yes, pretty much. Muscle can be a huge advantage. 

For example I could easily take Lebron James, when he was 8.


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## Copper (Dec 9, 2004)

*Re: KC: Detroit declares Nocioni "Dirty."*



lorgg said:


> So, your theory is " if you cant beat em, beat em up" ? Prince is not the type of player to cry foul and accuse anyone of being dirty unless he feels they are. Prince has shown since he entered the league that he is level headed and very poised, for him to feel this way about nocioni there is defenitely something there. Andres is gonna earn himself a reputation that he doesnt want real soon if he keeps commiting these types of foolish plays. And it will probably be his more talented teammates that it ends up effecting.


You obviously didn't see the replay or you'd know it was unintentional. What did the "Bad Boys" in Detroit do for 2 yrs winning the championship? Paybacks are hell. 
Noc. was was bringing his arm over to get open, plain and simple. Prince wasn't playing at the same speed and got whacked.[/QUOTE]

"Prince wasnt playing at the same speed"? What the hell does that mean? Are you saying his head should learn to move faster? As for the Bad Boys? why are you mentioning them? No one from that team is on this team. So exactly how is that payback? Obviously if you feel that Pistons are being "paid back", you also feel that there are dirty tricks being employed. So you agree with me? thank you.


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## ¹²³ (Jan 8, 2003)

I am not dirty!


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## Copper (Dec 9, 2004)

bullsville said:


> The 'Bad Boys' can apparently dish it out, but they can't take it.
> 
> As far back as Game 4 of the 1991 EC Finals when Isiah and the girls walked out on the final seconds of their destruction, the ladies from Detriot love to play physical ball vs the meek, they just can't handle a little retribution.
> 
> Well, get used to it Piston fan, the Bulls are back, and they aren't taking crap any more than their ancestors from the early '90s.


 Why do you guys continue to bring up the Bad Boys? Yes they were tough, they used every trick in the book, and yeah sometimes dirty play was involved. However, that team has nothing to do with this team except the fact that both won championships and both are named Pistons. Stop dwelling on the past and accept the present. The harsh reality is that you know underhand tactics are used and you continue to bring up the Bad Boys to make excuses for you teams behaviour. Its OK, I loved the bad Boys, but I never went around denying the fact that they used every loop hole and intimidation tactic available.


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## Copper (Dec 9, 2004)

superdave said:


> Just sad that the focus is on an elbow, when Noch hit a couple huge 3 pointers that <i>should</i> have sealed it in OT.
> 
> Saw the end of yesterday's game and it didn't look dirty to me. Prince wasn't cut, though they held a towel up to his head for a few minutes. Cuts on your face don't clot that quickly, obviously. Noch even came up to Prince afterward (he was inbounding) to make sure he was okay. Brown as usual was crying the whole game so why not continue it in the post-game? What I find most satisfying about beating the Pistons is Brown's meltdown's during the close of these games. Too bad we couldn't see another one


 You might want to watch it again and look at his hand when he removes it from his face, there is blood on his palm. Also take note of the cut in his eyebrow. He was cut from the elbow.


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## Copper (Dec 9, 2004)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> I've watched the replays over and over and I don't think Noc was "gooning it up" against Wade or Prince. I think Noc's D is physical, but not dirty, and he does a great job of getting under opponents' skin. I think coaches are starting to complain about him not because he truly is a goon, but to try to get the refs to watch Noc more closely on all the little bumps and pulls that he gets away with.


 Well, if it were 1 incident? I would shrug it as accidental and unintentional but it is not once. I love players like noc and appreciate the hustle and hard work, however he is on the road to a reputation around the league that he and his teammates do not want. The league will begin to watch him far more carefully and other teams will begin to take exception, but they will take exception on his more talented teamates rather than him.


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## bananas (Apr 20, 2003)

bullsville said:


> The 'Bad Boys' can apparently dish it out, but they can't take it.
> 
> As far back as Game 4 of the 1991 EC Finals when Isiah and the girls walked out on the final seconds of their destruction, the ladies from Detriot love to play physical ball vs the meek, they just can't handle a little retribution.
> 
> Well, get used to it Piston fan, the Bulls are back, and they aren't taking crap any more than their ancestors from the early '90s.


It makes no sense to recollect and highlight what a team did over a decade ago and make it relative to the present topic at hand. The inflated similarities by the media of the 90's Bad Boys and the 2005 defending world champion Pistons are asinine and unwarranted. What actions has led up to the dirty players label that this current Piston team deals with as a whole. The Palace Brawl had little to do with any irregular Detroit player's actions so what event caused this resurrection of the Bad Boys image. Credit should be placed upon the unified lock down defense that the Pistons unleashed during the second half of the 03/04 season after the acquisition of Sheed, which was entailed by the frustration of opposing teams and the media alike of such a physical and defense oriented ball club (As I recall Aaron Williams pumping his fist in the air after his last second tip in bucket to put NJ over 70 pts against Detroit to break their defensive streak).

Still Detroit as well as Nocioni currently have the trademark of playing a dirty game. The difference is the entire Piston franchise is under scrutiny while only Andres is catching fire in Chicago. The young Bulls forward deserves the hardnosed label, he desires such a thing and he has to deal with the consequences of his playing style. Not to mention that this is just his first year in the league and he has already been in the spotlight negatively on multiple occasions. You reap what you sew


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

bananas said:


> It makes no sense to recollect and highlight what a team did over a decade ago and make it relative to the present topic at hand. The inflated similarities by the media of the 90's Bad Boys and the 2005 defending world champion Pistons are asinine and unwarranted. What actions has led up to the dirty players label that this current Piston team deals with as a whole. *The Palace Brawl had little to do with any irregular Detroit player's actions* so what event caused this resurrection of the Bad Boys image. Credit should be placed upon the unified lock down defense that the Pistons unleashed during the second half of the 03/04 season after the acquisition of Sheed, which was entailed by the frustration of opposing teams and the media alike of such a physical and defense oriented ball club.
> 
> Still Detroit as well as Nocioni currently have the trademark dirty game. The difference is the entire Piston franchise is under scrutiny while only Andres is catching fire in Chicago. The young Bulls forward deserves the hardnosed label, he desires such a thing and he has to deal with the consequences of his playing style. Not to mention that this is just his first year in the league and he has already been in the spotlight negatively on multiple occasions. You reap what you sew


:laugh:

You don't think that Ben Wallace's attempt to remove Ron Artest's voice box without the benefit of surgical instruments or anesthesia had something to do with the brawl?

Let's resume this argument when you've guided your spaceship back to earth.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> :laugh:
> 
> You don't think that Ben Wallace's attempt to remove Ron Artest's voice box without the benefit of surgical instruments or anesthesia had something to do with the brawl?
> 
> Let's resume this argument when you've guided your spaceship back to earth.


 :clap: :clap: :clap: 

Ben Wallace has ben mentioned 4 times in this thread and for all their highbrowing of Nocioni, the Detroit fans have not rebutted a single point reguarding him. I think we know where they stand on that.


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## Copper (Dec 9, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> :laugh:
> 
> You don't think that Ben Wallace's attempt to remove Ron Artest's voice box without the benefit of surgical instruments or anesthesia had something to do with the brawl?
> 
> Let's resume this argument when you've guided your spaceship back to earth.


 No, Ben wanted Artest......Plain and simple.......He got 6 games which is pretty normal for his actions, and his history. The heavy fines were levied by the league for attacking fans( not completely unprovoked) but the league will not allow fans to feel threatened. Just look at the leagues response and you can tell how serious they are about fan involvement. Players fight players? usually 2-10 games...fans involved? bye bye. If you really want to determine who did what and who is at fault? follow the trial of the players.


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## Copper (Dec 9, 2004)

The Krakken said:


> :clap: :clap: :clap:
> 
> Ben Wallace has ben mentioned 4 times in this thread and for all their highbrowing of Nocioni, the Detroit fans have not rebutted a single point reguarding him. I think we know where they stand on that.


 Yes, stand the same place I did then. Ben retaliated out of anger and frustration to what he felt was a hard cheap foul. Ben was suspended and served his time.case closed. Now remind me what this has to do with Nocioni?


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Copper said:


> No, Ben wanted Artest......Plain and simple.......He got 6 games which is pretty normal for his actions, and his history. The heavy fines were levied by the league for attacking fans( not completely unprovoked) but the league will not allow fans to feel threatened. Just look at the leagues response and you can tell how serious they are about fan involvement. Players fight players? usually 2-10 games...fans involved? bye bye. If you really want to determine who did what and who is at fault? follow the trial of the players.



There was nothing USUAL about that incident, on either side. He should have gotten a bigger suspension, and he didnt. Plain and simple.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Copper said:


> Yes, stand the same place I did then. Ben retaliated out of anger and frustration to what he felt was a hard cheap foul. Ben was suspended and served his time.case closed. Now remind me what this has to do with Nocioni?


Nice attempt at sterilizing the incident. Didnt work though. As for what it has to do with Noc. Not much. It does have quite a bit to do with a bit of hypocrisy on the part of certain posters though....


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

The Krakken said:


> There was nothing USUAL about that incident, on either side. He should have gotten a bigger suspension, and he didnt. Plain and simple.


Are you aware that Ben Wallace's 6 games are the second longest suspension in the HISTORY of the NBA for a player on player incident? The only person to ever be suspended longer was Kermit Washington for his punch that nearly killed Rudy T.

Fights are relatively common in the NBA, and the penalty is virtually always 1-3 games.

And that is the only incident of this nature in Ben's career.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Copper said:


> No, Ben wanted Artest......Plain and simple.......He got 6 games which is pretty normal for his actions, and his history. The heavy fines were levied by the league for attacking fans( not completely unprovoked) but the league will not allow fans to feel threatened. Just look at the leagues response and you can tell how serious they are about fan involvement. Players fight players? usually 2-10 games...fans involved? bye bye. If you really want to determine who did what and who is at fault? follow the trial of the players.


My thoughts on the Riot of Crapstain Hills can be found, ad nauseum, in two other threads on this board. In a nutshell, I have no problem with the suspensions handed down, although Wallace should have gotten at least twice as many games off as he did. My problem was that at the same time the league was (rightfully) reassuring fans, they weren't doing nearly enough to warn fans that their misconduct is just as dangerous and intolerable, or making sure that all of their arenas are staffed with an appropriate number of properly trained security personnel (the Palace wasn't that night).

FWIW, my views on Nocioni are closer to yours than most Bulls fans. But I can also understand why folks are reacting so poorly to the idea of a Pistons fan doling out advice on what constitutes a dirty or clean basketball player.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> My thoughts on the Riot of Crapstain Hills can be found, ad nauseum, in two other threads on this board. In a nutshell, I have no problem with the suspensions handed down, although Wallace should have gotten at least twice as many games off as he did. My problem was that at the same time the league was (rightfully) reassuring fans, they weren't doing nearly enough to warn fans that their misconduct is just as dangerous and intolerable, or making sure that all of their arenas are staffed with an appropriate number of properly trained security personnel (the Palace wasn't that night).
> 
> FWIW, my views on Nocioni are closer to yours than most Bulls fans. But I can also understand why folks are reacting so poorly to the idea of a Pistons fan doling out advice on what constitutes a dirty or clean basketball player.


Exactly. I really couldn't care less with the Noc suspension. He had it coming. You could tell he was getting close to havng this happen. But hearing pistons fans rave on about it like they have is akin to hearing Madonna chastise Jlo for being loose. :angel:


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## Ragingbull33 (Apr 10, 2005)

if u watch the replay in slow motion u can see where detroit MIGHT have a point, but the most important thing to remember is tayshaun prince grew up near a toxic waste dump and his body is deformed. know that looney tunes condor? well thats what he looks like, his neck is crooked and his head points out 2 feet from hib body. Noc should not be held accountable for prince's deformity.


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## bananas (Apr 20, 2003)

ScottMay said:


> :laugh:
> 
> You don't think that Ben Wallace's attempt to remove Ron Artest's voice box without the benefit of surgical instruments or anesthesia had something to do with the brawl?
> 
> Let's resume this argument when you've guided your spaceship back to earth.


Well let us take a look at a similar situation involving your team's player, Nocioni, and his late game hard foul on Wade. Haslem retaliated with a shoving of Andres into the stands, toppling over an adolescent fan. Then remember what followed; we didn't see Nocioni basking upon the media table, talking to the announcers all the while the game still has not ended (Irregular actions for a player). Please reread what I stated in that Ben Wallace did nothing irregular, meaning that the majority of players in Ben's position would have acted in a similar fashion as seen by Mr. Haslem's backing of his teammate Wade. The two teams (Pacers and Pistons) already had a recent rivalry going from the last seasons ECF among other subplots between the two squads. It was a foolish thing for Artest to do when the game was out of reach and there already was some bad blood boiling.

Now that the league has come down on Nocioni there is no point to reiterate the predicament that Andres put himself into. The results of his unreasonable actions speak for itself.


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## Ragingbull33 (Apr 10, 2005)

u forgot dikembe, he should be kicked out of the league for his elbows


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

ScottMay said:


> My problem was that at the same time the league was (rightfully) reassuring fans, they weren't doing nearly enough to warn fans that their misconduct is just as dangerous and intolerable, or making sure that all of their arenas are staffed with an appropriate number of properly trained security personnel (the Palace wasn't that night).


The NBA really doesn't have any authority over private citizens which makes it tough for them to send a message to fans like they can to their own players. That's more the legal systems territory, which by the way came down pretty hard on those involved.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

bananas said:


> Well let us take a look at a similar situation involving your team's player, Nocioni, and his late game hard foul on Wade. Haslem retaliated with a shoving of Andres into the stands, toppling over an adolescent fan. Then remember what followed; we didn't see Nocioni basking upon the media table, talking to the announcers all the while the game still has not ended (Irregular actions for a player). Please reread what I stated in that Ben Wallace did nothing irregular, meaning that the majority of players in Ben's position would have acted in a similar fashion as seen by Mr. Haslem's backing of his teammate Wade. The two teams (Pacers and Pistons) already had a recent rivalry going from the last seasons ECF among other subplots between the two squads. It was a foolish thing for Artest to do when the game was out of reach and there already was some bad blood boiling.
> 
> Now that the league has come down on Nocioni there is no point to reiterate the predicament that Andres put himself into. The results of his unreasonable actions speak for itself.


Sorry, I'm going to have to split hairs here. There is a considerable difference between the shove Haslem gave Nocioni and the two-handed chokehold/neck tackle that Wallace gave Artest. I might agree with you on just about every other point, but I can't on that one. If Wallace had done something similar to a guy like Tayshawn Prince or Jannero Pargo, they would have died.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Mike luvs KG said:


> The NBA really doesn't have any authority over private citizens which makes it tough for them to send a message to fans like they can to their own players. That's more the legal systems territory, which by the way came down pretty hard on those involved.


I agree about the authority over private citizens. But the NBA should have certainly gone out to the teams and said, "If you intend to host NBA games in the future, here are a bare minimum of security standards and procedures that have to be met." That hasn't happened, and doesn't appear like it'll ever happen unless there's another incident. All they've done is issue a loose set of guidelines that aren't mandatory.

And I'm not sure I agree the local prosecutor came down too hard on anyone but the easiest targets, Idiot Beer Thrower and Crazy Chair Thrower. As far as I'm concerned, any object thrown at a player from the upper deck should have warranted a felony assault charge. How many of the hundreds of people who stormed the floor after the brawl were charged with criminal trespass? And so on. I know the sheer numbers of people (and sheer lack of security) makes what I'm proposing unrealistic. But I just get the sense that way too many people got off scot-free.


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## Ragingbull33 (Apr 10, 2005)

i used to praise the nba for having their **** together compared to the other 3 major sports, but after this season i odnt know anymore. why on earth would they suspend nocioni. because he had 2 hard, but not illegal fouls? are we now using a cumulative system? 

i pray they fix some of their problems this summer with the CBA at the least.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

I have an issue with the league circumventing the decision of an official and suspending a player when the official did not find the incident worthy of an ejection.

Is the league now going to choose to review and override traveling calls, ticky-tack fouls, and every judgement call by referees, consequently altering the score of a game days after it has been played?


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

ScottMay said:


> I agree about the authority over private citizens. But the NBA should have certainly gone out to the teams and said, "If you intend to host NBA games in the future, here are a bare minimum of security standards and procedures that have to be met." That hasn't happened, and doesn't appear like it'll ever happen unless there's another incident. All they've done is issue a loose set of guidelines that aren't mandatory.


They did issue guidelines that went into effect at the all-star break and teams are fined for not following them.

Although I'm not sure security was the issue in that incident. Security can't come onto the floor until the referees call them. The refs never took control of the situation. I don't know how many people realizes this, but Ben Wallace was never actually ejected from that game. They should have ejected him immediately and called for security when things were starting to get more and more heated. That never happened. Security had to sit around and watch while assistant coaches tried restraining players from going after each other because the referees never took action. By the time Artest rushed the stands it was too late. It doesn't really matter how tight your security is if they aren't allowed on the floor.



> And I'm not sure I agree the local prosecutor came down too hard on anyone but the easiest targets, Idiot Beer Thrower and Crazy Chair Thrower. As far as I'm concerned, any object thrown at a player from the upper deck should have warranted a felony assault charge. How many of the hundreds of people who stormed the floor after the brawl were charged with criminal trespass? And so on. I know the sheer numbers of people (and sheer lack of security) makes what I'm proposing unrealistic. But I just get the sense that way too many people got off scot-free.


Hundreds of people did not storm the court. Only 2 people actually came onto the playing surface, the two guys who were knocked out by Artest and O'Neal. One got a year probation and 150 hours community service, the other got 2 years probation 100 hours community service, plus 10 weekends community service after the probation is done. I think that is pretty stiff for simply walking onto the court and getting punched. I think it sends a convincing message.

I think there were far less people involved in the incident than most seem to think. The arena was mostly empty by the time the incident had occured. There were a lot of liquid showers, some cups being thrown... I think felonious assault, a charge that carries prison time would be overly excessive for tossing a cup.

Anyway, I just saw a clip on ESPN of Italian soccer fans throwing flares/torches onto the field, hitting one player and lighting the entire field on fire. Kind of puts the incident into perspective in regards to how mild American fans actually are compared to the rest of the world, even when they are 'rioting'.


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## showstopper496 (Nov 28, 2003)

Bulls Fans ALWAYS trying to defend Nocioni :uhoh: 

I bet you, if Nocioni went out and raped someone, all of you homer fans would still be defending him.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

showstopper496 said:


> Bulls Fans ALWAYS trying to defend Nocioni :uhoh:
> 
> I bet you, if Nocioni went out and raped someone, all of you homer fans would still be defending him.


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## Future (Jul 24, 2002)

showstopper496 said:


> Bulls Fans ALWAYS trying to defend Nocioni :uhoh:
> 
> I bet you, if Nocioni went out and raped someone, all of you homer fans would still be defending him.


Ignorant comment of the year! Um yea... we would definately support Nocioni for a felony.  Give me a break and don't ever make such a stupid comparison again. And homer fans? Some of us have been supporting this team through these hardships the past 5 years.... watching Kornel David score for us in the post or Mark Bryant hitting game winning shots.... don't ever give me that bull****. Homer fans? That phrase "Through thick and thin" applies to us. Give me a break and grow up and add something that is actually worthy of discussion.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

showstopper496 said:


> Bulls Fans ALWAYS trying to defend Nocioni :uhoh:
> 
> I bet you, if Nocioni went out and raped someone, all of you homer fans would still be defending him.


Yes I agree... hard fouls on Vince, Wade, and an elbow to Prince tend to lead to rape theoreticals.

Makes sense.


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## madcows_playing_point (Mar 31, 2005)

showstopper496 said:


> Bulls Fans ALWAYS trying to defend Nocioni :uhoh:
> 
> I bet you, if Nocioni went out and raped someone, all of you homer fans would still be defending him.


What does that have to do with the game of basketball? You have now lost all credibility. Please stop posting nonsense and try to actually add to the thread. If you actually have been reading the Bulls forum for any amount of time you would realize that they do not give anyone a free pass. They also don't defend someone who doesn't deserve it. I think the "homer" label belongs to you.


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## remlover (Jan 22, 2004)

Future said:


> Ignorant comment of the year! Um yea... we would definately support Nocioni for a felony.  Give me a break and don't ever make such a stupid comparison again. And homer fans? Some of us have been supporting this team through these hardships the past 5 years.... watching Kornel David score for us in the post or Mark Bryant hitting game winning shots.... don't ever give me that bull****. Homer fans? That phrase "Through thick and thin" applies to us. Give me a break and grow up and add something that is actually worthy of discussion.


Couldn't have said it any better myself.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

bananas said:


> Well let us take a look at a similar situation involving your team's player, Nocioni, and his late game hard foul on Wade. *Haslem retaliated with a shoving of Andres into the stands, toppling over an adolescent fan.*


Interesting that you bring this up. How does a league suspend a Noc for what could be argued as an inadvertant elbow while they do nothing about another Haslem for intentionally shoving Noc headfirst into a crowd of people?!

This league must be run by a bunch of doctors, because the *Hypocritical Oath* appears to be in play here.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Wynn said:


> Interesting that you bring this up. How does a league suspend a Noc for what could be argued as an inadvertant elbow while they do nothing about another Haslem for intentionally shoving Noc headfirst into a crowd of people?!
> 
> This league must be run by a bunch of doctors, because the *Hypocritical Oath* appears to be in play here.



LOL!!! As a Doctor to be, your play on the *Hyppocratic Oath* was classic. :clap: :clap:


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