# Phil Jackson on Kobe Byrant



## Rayza

I found this article and dont know if it has been posted yet ..

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-jackson12oct12,1,7986146.story?coll=la-home-sports

Throwing the Book at Bryant
* In new diary, Jackson paints Laker star as key figure in last season's tumult, says he wanted to trade him.

By J.A. Adande, Times Staff Writer

The "unavoidable" conflict between coach Phil Jackson and Kobe Bryant led Jackson to ask the Lakers to trade Bryant in January and hampered the team's shot at the 2004 championship, Jackson wrote in a soon-to-be-released diary of the season.

A 5,500-word excerpt of "The Last Season" will appear in the November issue of Los Angeles magazine, which will hit newsstands Monday. The book, published by Penguin Press, will come out this month. A copy of the magazine excerpt was made available to The Times on Monday.

Although the book is Jackson's personal look at the tumultuous year, Bryant emerges as the central figure.

"I do know that there were many occasions this year when I felt like there was a psychological war going on between us," Jackson wrote. "Amazingly, we came to a truce, even to a higher level of trust. Ultimately, though, I don't believe we developed enough trust between us to win a championship."

Jackson details their deteriorating relationship, marked by Bryant's defiance and Jackson's own budding prejudice against him.

The coach had a January "tirade" about Bryant in front of General Manager Mitch Kupchak in which Jackson demanded the team trade Bryant and said, "I won't coach this team next year if he is still here. He won't listen to anyone. I've had it with this kid."

Jackson also revealed that he wanted to trade Bryant to the Phoenix Suns for Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion during the 1999-2000 season, Jackson's first with the Lakers, but that Jerry West, then the team's general manager, told him owner Jerry Buss would never trade Bryant. Jackson wrote that Kupchak told him the same thing last season.

Jackson suspected that the organization's public announcement in February that it had suspended contract negotiations with him was a means of appealing to Bryant, who became a free agent at the end of the season.

In their final meeting, days after the Lakers lost to the Detroit Pistons in the NBA Finals, he asked Bryant whether Jackson's return would influence his decision to re-sign with the Lakers, "He said I should make up my mind about my future independently of his decision," Jackson wrote.

Jackson told him he was going to retire.

"Really?" Bryant asked, his eyebrows rising.

Then Jackson asked whether Shaquille O'Neal's presence on the team would affect Bryant's decision.

"Yes, it does," Bryant said, according to Jackson.

Jackson told them they could play together, to which Bryant responded, according to Jackson: "There's no doubt about that. I've done that for eight years with him, but I'm tired of being a sidekick."

(Buss said over the summer that his decision to trade O'Neal — he eventually was dealt to Miami for Lamar Odom, Brian Grant and Caron Butler — was made independently of Bryant. Bryant said he had no role in either Jackson's or O'Neal's departures.)

Bryant's relationship with O'Neal — which slid from chilly to frozen — was an unavoidable topic for Jackson as well.

In Jackson's first meeting with Bryant before the season, Bryant said he would hold his ground in the public war of words with O'Neal.

"If he starts saying things in the press, I'll fire back," Bryant said. "I'm not afraid to go up against him. I've had it."

Jackson wrote that after O'Neal and Bryant exchanged shots in the media two days before the start of the season, O'Neal was frustrated at what he perceived as an organizational favoritism toward Bryant and said: "I'd like to pound the chump."

When O'Neal missed practice the day after the All-Star game, Bryant told Jackson: "That just shows you what kind of leader he is."

"He was angry about the allowances the Lakers afford Shaq, failing to note the hypocrisy in his accusation," Jackson wrote. "Nobody this year, or in any year I've coached, has received more 'allowances' than Kobe Bryant. At times the pettiness between the two of them can be unbelievably juvenile."

Jackson and O'Neal had their own squabbles, but Jackson called coaching O'Neal "an experience I will cherish forever."

He didn't use those words for Bryant.

Among the "allowances" the organization made for Bryant was to pay part of the expense of Bryant's taking private jets to and from Colorado for hearings in his sexual assault case. Jackson wrote, "Kobe was unhappy with the type of plane that was selected; he wanted one with higher status. He should feel fortunate that he's not footing the bill himself."

Jackson thought Bryant was disrespectful during the season, whether mocking him or flat-out defying orders. An incident when Bryant told Jackson he would do some running, then didn't follow through, set off Jackson's January trade demand.

But another incident showed Jackson how much of the battle was his own doing. In March, Bryant was late for a bus to the airport, by Jackson's reckoning. Bryant insisted he was on time and Jackson should "get with the rest of the world" and synchronize his watch. Jackson later checked with a trainer and discovered that Bryant was right; Jackson's watch was three minutes fast.

"The incident illustrated to me how conditioned I am to find fault with this kid, after everything I've gone through with him," Jackson wrote. "I suppose the anger is deeper than I imagined."

Jackson had reached the conclusion before the season that "a major confrontation between the two of us seems unavoidable."

It prompted Jackson to hire a therapist "who has dealt with narcissistic behavior in the Los Angeles public school system" to consult during the season.

Jackson wrote that he knew he would be out of a job after he took the me-or-him stance with Bryant, and deep down inside it was what he wanted after the usual rigors of the NBA season and the unusual drama on "this dysfunctional team." That decision was confirmed in his final meeting with Buss, when he was told the team wanted to scale back and would go in a direction that didn't involve Jackson as coach.


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## Pejavlade

good find enjoyable to read 

Jackson and O'Neal had their own squabbles, but Jackson called coaching O'Neal "an experience I will cherish forever." :yes:


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## Cap

Wow, now that's some juicy info. It's almost sickening to see how childish these people can be. Phil, Shaq and Kobe all need to be smacked upside the head. 

Sidenote; notice that the LA Times link doesn't work anymore. Adande making last minute changes? :laugh:


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## Kodo20022001

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Wow, now that's some juicy info. It's almost sickening to see how childish these people can be. Phil, Shaq and Kobe all need to be smacked upside the head.
> 
> Sidenote; notice that the LA Times link doesn't work anymore. Adande making last minute changes? :laugh:



I think it's amazing they coexisted for as long as they did.


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## Kunlun

Kobe is a spoiled peice of trash.


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## Kodo20022001

> Originally posted by <b>KL Dawger</b>!
> Kobe is a spoiled peice of trash.



Kobe no doubt has his faults. But they're all in the wrong.


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>Kodo20022001</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Kobe no doubt has his faults. But they're all in the wrong.


True statement here


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## John

Kobe the next Jordan my A$$!


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## futuristxen

This is why we all hated the Lakers so much. Maybe now you Lakers fans can understand it.

They're all babies.


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> Kobe the next Jordan my A$$!


True homer here

Everybody say F! to the true homer!

F!

John=Scrub poster who is not the bball knowledge level of

Beez
Bball Doctor
or Rifleman

Coach level please


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## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>KL Dawger</b>!
> Kobe is a spoiled peice of trash.


If that's what you got from reading that, then I don't know what to tell you. 

In many ways, Shaq is the little kid, that Phil was mentoring and Kobe was the phoenix being left to the side, so Phil could tend to the little kid. 

Sometimes these things happen. Phil actually wanted to trade Kobe for Marion and Kidd. Note if that happened, the Lakers would have no titles. 

How can you put Marion and Kidd on a half-court oriented team? The Lakers should be glad West stayed as long as he did.

If the owner Buss is with Kobe, you got to get with the program or get out. That's what happened, so move on. I don't expect Phil's book to be too scathing of O'Neal, if for no other reason than O'Neal can't handle it emotionally.


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## John

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> True homer here
> 
> Everybody say F! to the true homer!
> 
> F!
> 
> John=Scrub poster who is not the bball knowledge level of
> 
> Beez
> Bball Doctor
> or Rifleman
> 
> Coach level please


lol, I wonder if the hall of fame title can be taken off.


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> True homer here
> 
> Everybody say F! to the true homer!
> 
> F!
> 
> John=Scrub poster who is not the bball knowledge level of
> 
> Beez
> Bball Doctor
> or Rifleman
> 
> Coach level please


Had Jordan been put in Kobe situation, how would he have behaved? Would he have been willing to take a lesser role the way Kobe did.... if so, surely he would have eventually become feed up. Sort of how things turned out in Washington????? Kobe the next Jordan.... he sounds a lot like I'd imgaine Jordan would sounds given the same situation.


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## John

I hate poster only shows up when his player get bashed..

Sigh... this message board at least half of the amounts are wasted!


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## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> I hate poster only shows up when his player get bashed..
> 
> Sigh... this message board at least half of the amounts are wasted!


I'd imagine if Penny were still relevant, then you would be saying the same about yourself, eh?


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## John

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd imagine if Penny were still relevant, then you would be saying the same about yourself, eh?


lol, I at least have the guts to say T-mac is overrated, Kobe is Jordan my A$$?

You? Freaking homer posting on the Nets board?

LOL, Richard is overpaid and sux for sure!


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## MemphisX

I think the problem is Kobe came to the Lakers as a HSer and Shaq wanted to keep treating him like a little boy. Phil also wanted to do the same thing. There is no doubt that Kobe is an egotistical and self centered person. Most extraordinary talents and millionaires are that way.

To me it is PJ's MO, get the supposed best, most dominate player as your ally ('I won't play for anyoneelse') and try to force out of the prganization all that you don't want...heck in LA he took the extra step and dated the owners daughter.

Kobe for Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion? You can subtract at least 2 titles and add them to San Antonio if you make that trade.


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## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> lol, I at least have the guts to say T-mac is overrated, Kobe is Jordan my A$$?
> 
> You? Freaking homer posting on the Nets board?
> 
> LOL, Richard is overpaid and sux for sure!


Well at least we do know where I stand with you. How am I a homer of the Nets? I predict them to be the 29th best team in the league this year.

I'm a homer of realism and rational thinking.


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## John

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Well at least we do know where I stand with you. How am I a homer of the Nets? I predict them to be the 29th best team in the league this year.
> 
> I'm a homer of realism and rational thinking.


I lose, I lose...
But as long as your home team is the 29th best team, LMAO..
hahah...


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## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> I lose, I lose...
> But as long as your home team is the 29th best team, LMAO..
> hahah...


:laugh: :laugh: Okay, I call a truce.


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> I hate poster only shows up when his player get bashed..
> 
> Sigh... this message board at least half of the amounts are wasted!


Too bad your feelings aren't a consideration of anyone on these boards, let alone your opinion when it comes to anything basketball related.


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## Jamel Irief

I can't wait to read this book. I'm guessing I'll finish it in less than 3 days.

Anyways, I'm pretty releaved all this drama is finally gone from the Lakers. All the remaining Lakers (Slava, Rush, George, Walton, Cook) all respect and even look up to Kobe, so he has a fresh start. If the turmoil happens again it's all on him.


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> lol, I wonder if the hall of fame title can be taken off.


NO that means I am forever enshrined in the annuls of BBB.net. I have said that you should be hall of fame but why? Anyone that like Penny Hardaway and Vince Carter. 2 scrubs not on the level of Kobe or Tmac then 

No Hall of fame title for you. Say Vince Carter sux and Penny sux and I'll see if I can pull some strings. Until then Im Legend and John is not.:laugh:


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## John

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Too bad your feelings aren't a consideration of anyone on these boards, let alone your opinion when it comes to anything basketball related.


LOL, IV dont take it personality, I hate the characterisc of IV, but I dont hate you personally.

But if u change your screename to other would help lower my anger!


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## John

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> NO that means I am forever enshrined in the annuls of BBB.net. I have said that you should be hall of fame but why? Anyone that like Penny Hardaway and Vince Carter. 2 scrubs not on the level of Kobe or Tmac then
> 
> No Hall of fame title for you. Say Vince Carter sux and Penny sux and I'll see if I can pull some strings. Until then Im Legend and John is not.:laugh:



Of course of coursem the guy spent all his time here, look at the 9000 posts. What am I? Just a normal person acted likea troll to fire up the board once in a while. But the guy is here all the time, of course the guy is a legend.

But does lengend of message board = No life personally?
lol, I dont know, go ask around!


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## HKF

So you finally admit that you like trolling, eh John?


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## John

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> So you finally admit that you like trolling, eh John?


lol, you dont? People who laugh at my so called trolls are the people liked to troll but didnt have teh essential ability to troll in a "get away with it" manner..

The guy who has the right to say I am a troll is someone like Lucky777s from the Raps board, the guy ignored every of my posts and he thinks he knows a lot.

1) The guy said he is a business man, lol. What kind of Business does he do? Come On, buy this entire website if you Business is doing well.

.....

F!


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## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Of course of coursem the guy spent all his time here, look at the 9000 posts. What am I? Just a normal person acted likea troll to fire up the board once in a while. But the guy is here all the time, of course the guy is a legend.
> 
> But does lengend of message board = No life personally?
> lol, I dont know, go ask around!


I dont spend all my time here I mean I log on to here from work and from home, I like being here great message board. I only have a little over 8000 posts though. Not my fault you arent able to log on more. At the beginning of you being here think Dial-up, think dial-up ISP, think no Broadband or DSL. Not my fault, I would have sent you a subscription if you needed it that bad. True legend in the making you are but not at Beex level thats for sure F!


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> LOL, IV dont take it personality, I hate the characterisc of IV, but I dont hate you personally.
> 
> But if u change your screename to other would help lower my anger!


It's okay man, & trust me when I tell you that I don't take any of this personally. It's just sports talk, and anger doesn't even play a part of my behave. Most of the time when you argue seems like you're arguing with yourself instead of anyone else, so it's laughable, not upsetting. :greatjob:


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## CrossOver

As far as the whole situation with the Lakers last year I really didn't care. One interesting thing I'd like to note, there is alot of "spin" going on in some of these posts.


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## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> lol, you dont? People who laugh at my so called trolls are the people liked to troll but didnt have teh essential ability to troll in a "get away with it" manner..
> 
> The guy who has the right to say I am a troll is someone like Lucky777s from the Raps board, the guy ignored every of my posts and he thinks he knows a lot.
> 
> 1) The guy said he is a business man, lol. What kind of Business does he do? Come On, buy this entire website if you Business is doing well.
> 
> .....
> 
> F!


Another hi-jacked thread by John. So you are saying that I'm a troll? What makes me a troll? I don't troll around here, well maybe sometimes...


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## Amareca

> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe for Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion? You can subtract at least 2 titles and add them to San Antonio if you make that trade.


Buahahha the rumor back then was Jason Kidd for Kobe Bryant. I am glad that Kidd/Marion for Kobe never became reality.


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## mysterio

"I do know that there were many occasions this year when I felt like there was a psychological war going on between us," Jackson wrote. "Amazingly, we came to a truce, even to a higher level of trust. Ultimately, though, I don't believe we developed enough trust between us to win a championship."

Though I don't like Kobe I REALLY don't like Phil. What a whiny *****. He said he wanted to trade him in 2000, so we know since there there probably was little trust between Kobe and Phil back then how could they still win 3 titles with him?

But the moment the lakers lose a few playoffs, he puts the blame on Kobe and the level of trust. What a cop out. Kobe is not to blame for the team's demolition byt the Spurs and Pistons. They were flat out, outclassed by better teams. Phil is such a wus that he'd never admit it and just make excuses. By far the most overrated, pathetic coach ever.

Only a damn fool would waste their money on getting what should be used as toilet paper. Its just going to be another volume of Phil's ego fest. No thank you.


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## Minstrel

Kobe, Shaq, Phil and John are all to blame.

Thx!


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## Lope31

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Kobe, Shaq, Phil and John are all to blame.
> 
> Thx!


:laugh: John is a BBB.Net legend. He is like RTFFF but more complex and muc hmroe consistent. Enshrine him already.

Phil is a wuss
Shaq is an idiot
Kobe is self centred

Phil is very replacable
Shaq isn't replacable but not as valuable as he once was
Kobe is irreplacable


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## Hibachi!

> In their final meeting, days after the Lakers lost to the Detroit Pistons in the NBA Finals, he asked Bryant whether Jackson's return would influence his decision to re-sign with the Lakers, "He said I should make up my mind about my future independently of his decision," Jackson wrote.
> 
> Jackson told him he was going to retire.
> 
> "Really?" Bryant asked, his eyebrows rising.
> 
> *Then Jackson asked whether Shaquille O'Neal's presence on the team would affect Bryant's decision.
> 
> "Yes, it does," Bryant said, according to Jackson.*


And you don't think Bryant had something to do with Shaq being traded?


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## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>KABI</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh: John is a BBB.Net legend. He is like RTFFF but more complex and muc hmroe consistent. Enshrine him already.
> 
> Phil is a wuss
> Shaq is an idiot
> Kobe is self centred
> 
> Phil is very replacable
> Shaq isn't replacable but not as valuable as he once was
> Kobe is irreplacable


phil goes to his place
where all is serene and nice
retreats to himself

shaq's gotta be shaq
gone but you will not forget
i did not forget

kobe's own island
lake show firmly on shoulders
damn this is heavy


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## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> 
> And you don't think Bryant had something to do with Shaq being traded?


do you think shaq demanding to be traded had anything to do with shaq being traded?


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## Hibachi!

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> do you think shaq demanding to be traded had anything to do with shaq being traded?


Yes, that's obvious... Then you have to look at the fact that your GM goes out in a press interview and basically says, we are going to do everything in our power to keep Kobe, but Shaq? Yeah we can trade him... Which lead to the demand


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> 
> And you don't think Bryant had something to do with Shaq being traded?


_"I don't want to be a part of this."_ -- *Shaq*

He demanded a max contract. When that was denied, he demanded a trade, but I think I get your point. It is Kobe's fault! :yes: 







:whoknows:


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, that's obvious... Then you have to look at the fact that your GM goes out in a press interview and basically says, we are going to do everything in our power to keep Kobe, but Shaq? Yeah we can trade him... Which lead to the demand


So the GM chooses Kobe over Shaq, and that's Kobe's fault?


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## jazzy1

Shaq and Phil Jackson lost the power struggle to Kobe and now both are throwing sour grapes at him. 

Funny the guy still there has nothing but positive stuff to say. 

Phil figures he's gonna throw one last blow at Kobe. 

Shaq has been doing it all summer. 

In a few motnh's who will care about this stuff. 

MJ got 2 coaches fired, all the greats get people dismissed. 

Phil hmself said he started blaming Kobe for things he wasn't even responsible for.


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## jazzy1

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, that's obvious... Then you have to look at the fact that your GM goes out in a press interview and basically says, we are going to do everything in our power to keep Kobe, but Shaq? Yeah we can trade him... Which lead to the demand


So Shaq showing up the owner in the preseason saying Payme had nothing to do with Shaq being traded. When have you ever seen a player scream and show up the owner and be given a 150 more dollars of that owners money. 

NEVER.

That was Kobe's fault also.


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## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> So Shaq showing up the owner in the preseason saying Payme had nothing to do with Shaq being traded. When have you ever seen a player scream and show up the owner and be given a 150 more dollars of that owners money.
> 
> NEVER.
> 
> That was Kobe's fault also.


and he did that with about $90M still remaining on his current contract.


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## sweet_constipation

This is just like an old school Godzilla movie.
Just replace Godzilla and the other monsters with the egos of Phil, Shaq, and Kobe.

And certain Laker fans used to wonder why so many people hated the Lakers the last few years.


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>sweet_constipation</b>!
> And certain Laker fans used to wonder why so many people hated the Lakers the last few years.


It's not that we wondered, we just didn't care.


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## Drewbs

> Originally posted by <b>sweet_constipation</b>!
> This is just like an old school Godzilla movie.
> Just replace Godzilla and the other monsters with the egos of Phil, Shaq, and Kobe.


done.









thank you MSPaint


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## sweet_constipation

Always will  ya IV.


:laugh: 
Nice one Drewbs.


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## PauloCatarino

Man, i can be in the vast minority, here... but Phil Jackson's capacities as an NBA coach seem more and more overated to me...

His lack of "people skills" make me believe it was Jordan, not him, that put that leash on Rodman long enough to three-peat... 

People always wondered if Phil was indeed a great coach or if he was just lucky to have 2 All-Time top 10 to rely on... Nowadays i'm forced to strongly believe the latter...


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## bballlife

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> Man, i can be in the vast minority, here... but Phil Jackson's capacities as an NBA coach seem more and more overated to me...
> 
> His lack of "people skills" make me believe it was Jordan, not him, that put that leash on Rodman long enough to three-peat...
> 
> People always wondered if Phil was indeed a great coach or if he was just lucky to have 2 All-Time top 10 to rely on... Nowadays i'm forced to strongly believe the latter...


And thats exactly how I feel as well. I find myself losing more and more respect for him all the time.


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## Springsteen

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Too bad your feelings aren't a consideration of anyone on these boards, let alone your opinion when it comes to anything basketball related.


Oddly enough, I feel the same way about you any time you make a Kobe related comment. 

To be fair, aside from your Kobe comments, you are quite a knowledgeable poster.

There are a few arguments on here that are funny. Kuptchak and Buss are lauded for not trading Kobe for Marion and Kidd. Well, I'd say you can't be sure that the Lakers wouldn't have won some championships. But that's irrelevant. What's funny is that this is the same brain trust who has decimated a championship team. This is not a good management team.

Shaq demanded a trade. IN PART because of Kobe and Kobe's attitude towards him. Any denying of this is ignorant.

Shaq and Kobe both at times have behaved like little boys. It's true. Both are at fault.

However, what is being ignored, or justified in mystifying fashion is how the Lakers went out of their way to help Kobe this year and he chose instead to act, on occassion, extremely spoiled. The plane thing, the Sacramento debacle etc.


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## Cap

> However, what is being ignored, or justified in mystifying fashion is how the Lakers went out of their way to help Kobe this year and he chose instead to act, on occassion, extremely spoiled. The plane thing, the Sacramento debacle etc.


I'll cut him some slack, he had that rape trial thingy hanging over his head and all. But if Kobe were to shut out a teammate or coach this season the way he did Shaq and Phil last season, I'll be sure to call Kobe on it. Thankfully, Odom and Rudy are no where near the same kind of people that Phil and Shaq are, so I see little chance of Kobe causing any trouble there. Of course, it helps that there's no chance he'll be convicted of rape this season.


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## Pan Mengtu

> Originally posted by <b>Rayza</b>!
> 
> Jackson also revealed that he wanted to trade Bryant to the Phoenix Suns for Jason Kidd and Shawn Marion during the 1999-2000 season, Jackson's first with the Lakers, but that Jerry West, then the team's general manager, told him owner Jerry Buss would never trade Bryant. Jackson wrote that Kupchak told him the same thing last season.


They might have won 5 titles with Kidd and Marion.


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## Cap

*Re: Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe Byrant*



> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> They might have won 5 titles with Kidd and Marion.


Uh, Kidd in a half court offense? Are you *kidd*ing me? (bad pun, yes). It also doesn't help that Kidd's one of the worst shooting point guards in the league. 

Of course, had that trade gone down, the future of the Lakers would have been on Marion's shoulders, now that Kidd is 32 and basically done. Basically, an unnecessary sacrifice. Thankfully Buss and GM West (at the time) were smart not to trade the Lakers' future away.

Sidenote; the Lakers wouldn't have gotten Glen Rice in 2000, who at the time was a far better shooter than Marion and Kidd, if the Kobe for Marion-Kidd trade went down. No Glen Rice in 2000 = no title.


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## bballlife

*Re: Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe Byrant*



> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> They might have won 5 titles with Kidd and Marion.



:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## Pan Mengtu

*Re: Re: Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe Byrant*



> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


2000-2003: Kidd > Kobe
2000-2003: Kidd + Marion >> Kobe
2004: Kidd + Marion > Kobe


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## Dynasty Raider

*THIS IS TOOOOOO MUCH ....*

You Kobe Lovers/Laker Fanaticss are absolutely hilarious. You're so far out in LaLaLand that you can't even hear yourselves think.

Do you remember at all your arguments, say 3 months ago, FOR PJ AND SHAQ?

It is going to be a very long season for you all --- get ready.


Shaq and PJ are not saying anything different from what every "Kobe Basher"/"Laker Hater" hasn't said for years --- you all just don't want to accept the obvious. But I don't blame you --- you have no alternative now; you must live and/or die with Kobe as your Franchise Player.

Glen Rice tried to tell you, Horry tried to tell you, Payton tried to tell you. Hell, even Oakley, Ameche, Fortson and a very few others tried to tell you when they refused to play for the Lakers --- the organization stinks and it is nowhere near what it once was when Jerry West was in charge.

"I apologize for the interruption; carry on with your delusions". 


Oh ... wouldn't it be something if the "lowly" Clippers beat the **** out of you? It is possible, you know?  GO CLIPPERS!!!


----------



## Dynasty Raider

*STOP IT!!! I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE ....*

You Kobe Lovers/Laker Fanaticss are absolutely hilarious. You're so far out in LaLaLand that you can't even hear yourselves think.

Do you remember at all your arguments, say 3 months ago, FOR PJ AND SHAQ?

It is going to be a very long season for you all --- get ready.


You guys are tooo much ...

Shaq and PJ are not saying anything different from what every "Kobe Basher"/"Laker Hater" hasn't said for years --- you all just don't want to accept the obvious. But I don't blame you --- you have no alternative now; you must live and/or die with Kobe as your Franchise Player.

Glen Rice tried to tell you, Horry tried to tell you, Payton tried to tell you. Hell, even Oakley, Ameche, Fortson and a very few others tried to tell you when they refused to play for the Lakers --- the organization stinks and it is nowhere near what it once was when Jerry West was in charge.

"I apologize for the interruption; carry on with your delusions". 


Oh ... wouldn't it be something if the "lowly" Clippers beat the **** out of you? It is possible, you know?  GO CLIPPERS!!!


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe Byrant*



> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> 2000-2003: Kidd > Kobe
> 2000-2003: Kidd + Marion >> Kobe
> 2004: Kidd + Marion > Kobe


.

Obviously, the Lakers would have had great regular seasons with those 2 instead of Kobe.

YET, can you grasp the importance Kobe meant to the Lakers while it mattered (playoffs)? 

I wouldn't trust nor Kidd nor Marion to make (or take) the last play in a tight playoff game. I believe those were the moments when Kobe's star shone the brightest. and he (almost) never failed to deliver.

The Lakers' fate resides on the hands of this kid. He has another decade of ball to lead the team... I am happy the Lakers' brass decided to trust him that much and not trade him like (it seems) Phil wanted...


----------



## Pan Mengtu

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe Byrant*



> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> .
> 
> Obviously, the Lakers would have had great regular seasons with those 2 instead of Kobe.
> 
> YET, can you grasp the importance Kobe meant to the Lakers while it mattered (playoffs)?
> 
> I wouldn't trust nor Kidd nor Marion to make (or take) the last play in a tight playoff game. I believe those were the moments when Kobe's star shone the brightest. and he (almost) never failed to deliver.


Really? I'd rather have Shaq take the last shot. Then Horry. Then Kobe. The thing is, with Kidd and Marion, you wouldn't have guys demanding to take the last shot, like you had with Kobe. Also, you'd have a bad SG, instead of a bad SF and PG.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe Byrant*



> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> Really? I'd rather have Shaq take the last shot.


Shaq never takes the last shot. He is fouled when attempting it and ends up bricking the free throws... That's pretty much a given... 



> Then Horry.


Would you prefer Steve Kerr or Joh Paxson to take the last shot instead of Michael Jordan?



> Then Kobe.


I posted that Kobe *making* the last play was better than Kidd or Marion. It doesn't necessarily means we would take the shot (although chances are that he would). Kobe can create out of nothing. Marion surely can't. Kidd can, but mostly (not to say "only") on the open court...



> The thing is, with Kidd and Marion, you wouldn't have guys demanding to take the last shot, like you had with Kobe. Also, you'd have a bad SG, instead of a bad SF and PG.


Nothing worng with guys demanding to take the last shot... as long as they can make it... think Larry Bird... Think Kobe Bryant...  

"Bad PG"? The 0.4 Miracle Maker? Naaahhh...


----------



## HKF

This thread is complete. Dynasty Raider chimes in. Now all we need is Mack Ten and we'll have all the main Kobe haters in the same thread.

Hate on <strike>clowns</strike>.


----------



## Cap

Pan, be honest, how much Lakers basketball have you watched the last few years? No one in their right mind wants Shaq with the ball in his hands towards the end of a game.


----------



## Dynasty Raider

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> Hate on <strike>clowns</strike>.



Welcome to the team ... because you fit that description to a T.

We will see who has the last laugh.  ---<strike> CLOWN!!!</strike>


----------



## reHEATed

> Jackson and O'Neal had their own squabbles, but Jackson called coaching O'Neal "an experience I will cherish forever."


coming from one of if not the best coach of all time

see, its not only the fans who are annoyed by Kobe. Even his coach was highly annoyed by him, enough to want him to be traded. So we could "hate" all we want, but if his coach hates him and is extremely annoyed by his antics and attitude, there is no reason we cant be. Shaq has said some irresponsible things, calling out Kobe as of late, but it seems everybody else except Laker fans blame Kobe for about everything that happened. 

Kobe also seems to call out shaq, and pout behind the scenes (the leader/practice comment). There is a reason Shaq has said what he said about Kobe.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> This thread is complete. Dynasty Raider chimes in. Now all we need is Mack Ten and we'll have all the main Kobe haters in the same thread.
> 
> Hate on clowns.



Checking in!  

(the av is just a front)


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Pan, be honest, how much Lakers basketball have you watched the last few years? No one in their right mind wants Shaq with the ball in his hands towards the end of a game.


He can't bring up fg%. If he does, there's no point in putting Horry above Kobe.


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Checking in!
> 
> (the av is just a front)


Wasn't talking about you though? You know exactly who I'm talking about. The regulars. 

I also find it funny, that now that Phil and Shaq have left the Lakers, the majority (who are not Laker fans) are quick to label Kobe as being the chief proprietor of all the problems. At least be consistent. Some said they hated all the Lakers, now they like Shaq and like Phil. I mean c'mon now, no need to flip flop like a fish out of water.

No one could ever say I flip-flopped regarding Phil or Shaq, because I have always stated that I don't like either one of them. 

It just strikes me as a dogpile. Whether Phil likes Shaq or not, it's because Shaq has the brain of a pea and he knows if he said something disparaing of Shaq, Shaq would spaz out.


----------



## bballlife

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe Byrant*



> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> 2000-2003: Kidd > Kobe
> 2000-2003: Kidd + Marion >> Kobe
> 2004: Kidd + Marion > Kobe


*edited: Any insulting post will simply be deleted. I've told you that before, keep it in mind*


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Wasn't talking about you though? You know exactly who I'm talking about. The regulars.
> 
> I also find it funny, that now that Phil and Shaq have left the Lakers, the majority (who are not Laker fans) are quick to label Kobe as being the chief proprietor of all the problems. At least be consistent. Some said they hated all the Lakers, now they like Shaq and like Phil. I mean c'mon now, no need to flip flop like a fish out of water.
> 
> No one could ever say I flip-flopped regarding Phil or Shaq, because I have always stated that I don't like either one of them.
> 
> It just strikes me as a dogpile. Whether Phil likes Shaq or not, it's because Shaq has the brain of a pea and he knows if he said something disparaing of Shaq, Shaq would spaz out.


They have nothing better to do. Like I said before, if you truly, honestly hate a player to the point of bashing them almost every chance you get, you're probably a very insecure person or a fake white rapper.


----------



## bballlife

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe Byrant*



> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> Really? I'd rather have Shaq take the last shot. Then Horry. Then Kobe. The thing is, with Kidd and Marion, you wouldn't have guys demanding to take the last shot, like you had with Kobe. Also, you'd have a bad SG, instead of a bad SF and PG.


Oh really, Have you ever watched the Lakers out there in San Juan? 

Because<strike> that statement you just made shows you are completely ignorant.</strike><b>( do not insult other posters with hyperboles.)


----------



## sweet_constipation

Wow, we have a lot of people here that deserve my _"Get-tha-____-outta-here"_ award.

Marion is a great role player that can't shoot.
Kidd isn't the greatest PG in the halfcourt....and by not the greatest, I mean horrible.
You wanna see what happens to teams when there isn't a true outside threat, or someone that is efficient in the half court, look at the USA in the olympics.
I hate Kobe, HATE, but you can't dismiss what he meant to those Laker championship teams in the playoffs.



PauloCatarino, you're not alone.
Or should I say welcome to the club of those that have known that Phil Jackson is one of the most overrated figures in sports history.



Also, as much drama as there was between the organization, Shaq, Phil, and Kobe, Shaq was asking to get paid crazy amounts of dollars for the next couple of years.
If you're the owner, what would you do.
Keep the hungry 26 year old, or the 32 year old that has come into camp out of shape and doesn't have 1/10 the determination of his younger counterpart, and is on the decline.
If you still don't know what to do.......the older one wants max dollars 'til he's 36/37.
Not a difficult decision.


----------



## Pan Mengtu

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe Byrant*



> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh really, Have you ever watched the Lakers out there in San Juan?
> 
> Because that statement you just made shows you are completely ignorant.


Argument = At least 2 premises (can be implied) + conclusion

Premise 1: Implied that i haven't watched lakers games. *Logical fallacy known as ad hominem*.

Premise 2: My statements are completely ignorant. *Logical fallacy known as ad hominem*.

Conclusion: I'm wrong. Not supported by any logical premises.

Since your argument has invalid reasoning, it is itself invalid. Please try again.


----------



## RP McMurphy

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe Byrant*



> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> Since your argument has invalid reasoning, it is itself invalid. Please try again.


And what was your argument as to why you'd want Shaq taking the last shot?


----------



## Pan Mengtu

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe Byrant*



> Originally posted by <b>RP McMurphy</b>!
> 
> 
> And what was your argument as to why you'd want Shaq taking the last shot?


+10 fg%


----------



## Cap

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe Byrant*



> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> +10 fg%


Incorrect.


----------



## Spriggan

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe Byrant*



> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> +10 fg%


Wow, yeah. Let's not take into account that Shaq is one of the worst free-throw shooters in *league history*.

There's a reason Kobe/Horry always took the last shot, and not Shaq.

Think about it carefully.


----------



## Bball_Doctor

I didn't read past the first page of this thread but you should all know by now that the NBA (and professional sports in general) is full of prima donnas. 

The Lakers of recent past as successful as they were, were a travelling soap opera. 

Also, let's not forget that even the "godly" Jordan had disputes with Jackson about the system as well. But I don't want to get into that...even though I have compared Kobe to MJ in the past I am getting terribly sick of that comparison. It is as if people now _expect_ Kobe to be like MJ rather than him _wanting_ to be like him.

Anyways thanks for the shoutout Beez.


----------



## Drewbs

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe Byrant*



> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> +10 fg%


-36ft%

lol, that is simply pathetic.

49% from the line. Of course you are aware that if anyone with a brain would hack Shaq the second he touches the ball when the game is close? They guy can't even shoot 50% of his freebies, and not only that but he only shoots 43% during crunch time. Why on earth would you rather give Shaq the ball while there was 10 seconds left?


----------



## ChristopherJ

wow everyday kobe seems to be turning into more of an ***


----------



## RP McMurphy

Even if the defense didn't foul Shaq, he wouldn't shoot anywhere close to his normal percentage in an end-of-game situation. Moving the ball around and looking for an opportunity to make an entry pass is a process that takes up a good chunk of the shotclock. You can't expect to inbound the ball, make an entry pass to Shaq, and have him score, all in a few seconds.

There's a reason why perimeter players are usually the ones taking the last-second shots.


----------



## John

Bunch of posters agin seeing the obivous.

Yeah, Kobe hit clutch shots left and right, but there were situations that Kobe could have done better..

I remember the Kobe jumper on the Suns Game 2, LA fans should remember?

But what about the 2 plays before? Kobe drove to the traffic and the ball got loose and Cliff Robinson went for the fast break, missed it Penny with the follow.

There were tons of mistakes Kobe created in at least the first 2 NBA championship runs that other veteran players could aviod but LA could still win it..


----------



## Tersk

People don't remember the shots you miss, it's the ones you make


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> Bunch of posters agin seeing the obivous.
> 
> Yeah, Kobe hit clutch shots left and right, but there were situations that Kobe could have done better..
> 
> I remember the Kobe jumper on the Suns Game 2, LA fans should remember?
> 
> But what about the 2 plays before? Kobe drove to the traffic and the ball got loose and Cliff Robinson went for the fast break, missed it Penny with the follow.
> 
> There were tons of mistakes Kobe created in at least the first 2 NBA championship runs that other veteran players could aviod but LA could still win it..


Kobe was not a veteran. He was 21 years of age in his first championship run. Speaking of mistakes, remember how poorly Vince Carter played in his first playoffs?


----------



## Johnny Mac

There is a whole lot of ridiculousness going on in this thread on both ends of the spectrum. 

That said, John = BBBnet MVP. Nobody else even got any votes.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> That said, John = BBBnet MVP. Nobody else even got any votes.


Now *that* we can all agree on. :yes:


----------



## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> That said, John = BBBnet MVP. Nobody else even got any votes.





> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Now *that* we can all agree on. :yes:


Im not to sure he would F! you all


----------



## John

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe was not a veteran. He was 21 years of age in his first championship run. Speaking of mistakes, remember how poorly Vince Carter played in his first playoffs?


What about Vince Carter? The guy was tripple team like when he wasnt even in the scoring position?

And had Kobe play in that situation before?

lol, I didnt say Kobe was a veteran, but Penny/Carter and a few could have won the champs with Shaq as well.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> Bunch of posters agin seeing the obivous.
> 
> Yeah, Kobe hit clutch shots left and right, but there were situations that Kobe could have done better..
> 
> I remember the Kobe jumper on the Suns Game 2, LA fans should remember?
> 
> But what about the 2 plays before? Kobe drove to the traffic and the ball got loose and Cliff Robinson went for the fast break, missed it Penny with the follow.


But that's the point, he may have made mistakes, no one ever claimed Kobe is perfect, but he came through and made the basket for his team to win that game. When you do that nothing else matters.... Seriously, which would you rather be the guy who goes 12-13 and misses his last shot that cost his team the game, or the guy who goes 1-13 but makes his last shot that wins the game for his team??????



> There were tons of mistakes Kobe created in at least the first 2 NBA championship runs that other veteran players could aviod but LA could still win it..


But.... they.... still..... won!


----------



## kflo

la's 2nd title was the '01 season. kobe did very little wrong that postseason. and he was dominant. very few player ever could have filled in and did what he did at the same level, imo.


----------



## jc76ers

> a's 2nd title was the '01 season. kobe did very little wrong that postseason. and he was dominant. very few player ever could have filled in and did what he did at the same level, imo.


where was kobe's great D in the finals??? iverson lit up kobe in the first half of game by scoring something like 35 points. lakers had to rely on tyronn lue to 'contain' AI. once again, this just proves kobe's d is overrated. lue was more important to the lakers title that year than kobe. without lue, sixers would have beaten lakers since LA had no one besides Lue to contain AI.


----------



## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> 
> 
> where was kobe's great D in the finals??? iverson lit up kobe in the first half of game by scoring something like 35 points. lakers had to rely on tyronn lue to 'contain' AI. once again, this just proves kobe's d is overrated. lue was more important to the lakers title that year than kobe. without lue, sixers would have beaten lakers since LA had no one besides Lue to contain AI.


hopefully, this was a mock post. lue played 14.6 min per game in the finals. the game he played the most minutes in was game 1, the game la lost anyway. he played 12.75 mpg in games 2-5, and iverson's ppfga in those games was a horrid 0.94. 

iverson's a tough cover when he's on. he'll score on anyone. 

were you really serious when you said ty lue was more important to la's title in '01 than kobe? c'mon now.


----------



## Jamel Irief

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> 
> 
> where was kobe's great D in the finals??? iverson lit up kobe in the first half of game by scoring something like 35 points. lakers had to rely on tyronn lue to 'contain' AI. once again, this just proves kobe's d is overrated. lue was more important to the lakers title that year than kobe. without lue, sixers would have beaten lakers since LA had no one besides Lue to contain AI.


jc, this as an embarassing post because Fisher guarded Iverson in game 1 when Lue wasn't on him.

Go watch ESPN classic please.


----------



## HKF

Yeah where was Kobe's D? I mean Allen Iverson only won the MVP that season. He only was an unstoppable force that year. 

Don't worry, keep reaching, you'll grasp those straws soon enough.


----------



## jc76ers

oh trust me....i've seen the game numerous times....iverson was guarded by a combination of kobe and fisher. they kept switching on and off and no one can do a thing. 

and that proves my point about kobe being overrated...if he's such a good defensive player why didn't kobe get the assignment full time?? why did they need a 10th man to 'contain' AI? 

Lue didn't play that many minutes, but when he was in, he was extremely effective in slowing down AI. 

don't get me wrong...kobe was good offensively, but you said that he did everything perfectly that year but in actuality, his defense sucked!

lue was the x-factor in the series.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Yeah where was Kobe's D? I mean Allen Iverson only won the MVP that season. He only was an unstoppable force that year.


Iverson was unstoppable, but Kobe defense was clearly present since he was an all league defender in the same year. This was also the year that LA posted the most impressive playoff run in NBA history by winning 15 games and only losing 1, which was in overtime.


----------



## bballlife

Please stop wasting your time posting and go watch some basketball.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> oh trust me....i've seen the game numerous times....iverson was guarded by a combination of kobe and fisher. they kept switching on and off and no one can do a thing.
> 
> and that proves my point about kobe being overrated...if he's such a good defensive player why didn't kobe get the assignment full time?? why did they need a 10th man to 'contain' AI?
> 
> Lue didn't play that many minutes, but when he was in, he was extremely effective in slowing down AI.


It would be wise for a coach to guard 1 of the greatest scorers in league history with a number of different defenders, instead of just using one, who also happens to be the most versatile weapon you have offensively. Why expend energy when you can save some by using your team instead of 1 player? That doesn't makes sense to you? Team defense doesn't ring a bell?



> don't get me wrong...kobe was good offensively, but you said that he did everything perfectly that year but in actuality, his defense sucked!


Kobe has got to be the only all league defender to win that award year in and year out and still suck defensively. Very confusing? :whoknows:

I mean, how do you win all league defensive reckognition on a yearly basis if your defense sucks?


----------



## jc76ers

a lock-down number 1 defender always defends the opposing teams number 1 option. bruce bowen always defends kobe, AI, VC, etc. ron artest does the same. these guys are known for their defense. since you guys think kobe is such a great defender, why don't he defend the opposing teams best player???

here are your reasons...
team defense......that doesn't fly because artest and bowen always defend the best player thats not a center or PF. and those guys are considered the best defenders as well.

all league defense award.....it still boggles my mind that kobe gets it over guys like artest, bowen, christie, etc.....kobe has the name recognition and the NBA is a business. thats why he gets it over those guys. I'm not the only one that thinks kobe's d is overrated. a lot of people of this board think so as well. its not preposterous. his d will be exposed this year since theres no shaq to bail him out anymore....i didn't see the pre-season game yesterday but i noticed ray allen had like 25 points...where's kobe's great d ? are you gonna tell me he didn't guard ray now?


just admit it...kobe's d sucked against AI. everyone knows this....thats why Lue actually played some minutes cuz he was the only one that could do anything.


----------



## kflo

jordan didn't always guard the opposing teams best player. duncan doesn't always guard the opposing teams best player. neither does garnett. why? because their responsibilities go far beyond just defense. it's often a tradeoff. 

iverson is often guarded by the opposing point guard, because of his size and quickness, and because of the size of the pg that he plays with. using the players you hold up as known for defense, guys like bowen and artest often don't guard iverson for this very reason.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> a lock-down number 1 defender always defends the opposing teams number 1 option. bruce bowen always defends kobe, AI, VC, etc. ron artest does the same. these guys are known for their defense. since you guys think kobe is such a great defender, why don't he defend the opposing teams best player???


The difference is Kobe is also an exceptional offensive weapon, which Artest, & Bowen are not. 



> here are your reasons...
> team defense......that doesn't fly because artest and bowen always defend the best player thats not a center or PF. and those guys are considered the best defenders as well.


You ever wonder why San Antonio would not use Tim Duncan to guard Shaq quarters 1 - 4? It's the same reason LA doesn't use Kobe on the opposing teams best players 1-4... you gotta save energy somewhere. Kobe and Duncan are the teams best offensive weapons. If they concentrate more on defensive than offense, it wouldn't fit into the teams offensive skeme, so they throw different defenders at the opposing shooting guard or pf/center. Team defense makes much more sense than tiring your best players out by expecting him to perform every possible task one could expect from a player at his position.



> all league defense award.....it still boggles my mind that kobe gets it over guys like artest, bowen, christie, etc.....kobe has the name recognition and the NBA is a business. thats why he gets it over those guys. I'm not the only one that thinks kobe's d is overrated. a lot of people of this board think so as well. its not preposterous. his d will be exposed this year since theres no shaq to bail him out anymore....i didn't see the pre-season game yesterday but i noticed ray allen had like 25 points...where's kobe's great d ? are you gonna tell me he didn't guard ray now?


Great defense doesn't mean you hold a good scorer to zero points. When Bruce Bowen guards Kobe, doesn't Kobe score 30 on him? Isn't that the same guy you're saying is a better defender than Kobe because Ray gave Kobe 25 last night?????




> just admit it...kobe's d sucked against AI. everyone knows this....thats why Lue actually played some minutes cuz he was the only one that could do anything.


I'll agree to disagree because Kobe Bryant has played excellent defense against AI many times.


----------



## jc76ers

> You ever wonder why San Antonio would not use Tim Duncan to guard Shaq quarters 1 - 4? It's the same reason LA doesn't use Kobe on the opposing teams best players 1-4... you gotta save energy somewhere. Kobe and Duncan are the teams best offensive weapons. If they concentrate more on defensive than offense, it wouldn't fit into the teams offensive skeme, so they throw different defenders at the opposing shooting guard or pf/center. Team defense makes much more sense than tiring your best players out by expecting him to perform every possible task one could expect from a player at his position.


i disagree...its not about the energy...its more on the drawing fouls issue. duncans not on shaq because he might foul out in 2 quarters....HOWEVER, in the philly-LA series, AI was the only sixer lighting it up. the lakers problems weren't offense, it was defense. they had no answer for the answer....kobe failed...fisher failed...until lue tried.

i guess we agree to disagree then....i don't think i can convince you otherwise.


----------



## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> 
> 
> i disagree...its not about the energy...its more on the drawing fouls issue. duncans not on shaq because he might foul out in 2 quarters....HOWEVER, in the philly-LA series, AI was the only sixer lighting it up. the lakers problems weren't offense, it was defense. they had no answer for the answer....kobe failed...fisher failed...until lue tried.
> 
> i guess we agree to disagree then....i don't think i can convince you otherwise.


are you standing by your statement that lue's 14 mpg were more important to la's success than kobe? that it was his 12.8 mpg forced ai to have a ppfga of 0.94 over the final 4 games?

iverson had a huge game 1. he was hot. philly won. he was less effective the rest of the series, even though lue played less.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> 
> 
> i disagree...its not about the energy...its more on the drawing fouls issue. duncans not on shaq because he might foul out in 2 quarters....HOWEVER, in the philly-LA series, AI was the only sixer lighting it up. the lakers problems weren't offense, it was defense. they had no answer for the answer....kobe failed...fisher failed...until lue tried.
> 
> i guess we agree to disagree then....i don't think i can convince you otherwise.


You're right. That also is a reason why you don't want to use a primary offensive weapon... because of possible foul trouble.
But think about this, Iverson was scoring, and was seemingly unstoppable, but was that really an issue of concern? One man is not going to defeat an entire team. As long as LA continued with it's game plan.... which may have been to let Iverson 'get his' and stop everyone else.... and that was good enough to win convincingly which they did, why change that?


----------



## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> are you standing by your statement that lue's 14 mpg were more important to la's success than kobe? that it was his 12.8 mpg forced ai to have a ppfga of 0.94 over the final 4 games?
> 
> iverson had a huge game 1. he was hot. philly won. he was less effective the rest of the series, even though lue played less.


He had 23 35, 35 and 37. I dont think he was any less effective. No one else rose to the occasion.


----------



## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> He had 23 35, 35 and 37. I dont think he was any less effective. No one else rose to the occasion.


his ppfga was 0.94. which is rather bad. agree that no one else rose up, but iverson's scoring was double-edged. and he was indeed less effective than he was in game 1, where his ppfga was 1.07.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> his ppfga was 0.94. which is rather bad. agree that no one else rose up, but iverson's scoring was double-edged. and he was indeed less effective than he was in game 1, where his ppfga was 1.07.


Exactly. Iverson is going to score whether you play great D on him or not because he's a volume shooter. He probably averaged 35 shots per game during that series so 35 pts on 35 shots is not all that impressive. More than anything else, Iverson determines whether or not he has a big night rather than any particular defender. No one can stay in front of him, even PGs. If he's missing his shots, he'll have mediocre games. If he's hitting them, Joe Dumars couldn't keep him under 40.


----------



## Cap

<strike>Why is jc allowed to post here? Isn't there a grade school BBB.net board he can go read?</strike>(Personal attacks on posters are NOT allowed.trm):nonono:


----------



## BEEZ

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> his ppfga was 0.94. which is rather bad. agree that no one else rose up, but iverson's scoring was double-edged. and he was indeed less effective than he was in game 1, where his ppfga was 1.07.


It was or it is but thats all determined of how those games were played and if you remember after the 2nd quarter of the 2nd game no one else came to play the rest of the series


----------



## kflo

btw, who wants to be coached by a guy who's going to turn around and write a tell-all book at seasons end?


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> btw, who wants to be coached by a guy who's going to turn around and write a tell-all book at seasons end?


Jackson's a rat, just like Kobe!


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Jackson's a rat, just like Kobe!


You just don't talk about a player's practice habits and personal life like that. What a snitch.


----------



## Ballin101

I agree with Kobe's reaction to the Phil's criticism:

"He's just trying to sell books. I'll just leave it at that,'' Bryant said Wednesday at the Lakers' training camp at the University of San Diego." I wish him the best at whatever he's doing now. I have responsibilities here, and that's what I have to take care of. That's it.''

Look, the bottom line here is that Phil's pissed because someone finally realized that he just isn't that important. Same thing with Shaq. Both of those guys have major ego problems. Not to say Kobe doesn't have a huge ego too, but at least he's kept his mouth shut. I'm sure there's a lot of stuff that he would like to say about the both of them, but he's moved on, and I respect that. I know if I were in his shoes, I definitely would have gone off on Shaq and Phil by now. I mean, why the hell does Phil care about Kobe's allowances? These guys really want to find something wrong in everything Kobe does. It's pretty pathetic. The two of them (Phil & Shaq) just can't accept the fact that the Lakers wanted Kobe instead of them.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>Ballin101</b>!
> I agree with Kobe's reaction to the Phil's criticism:
> 
> "He's just trying to sell books. I'll just leave it at that,'' Bryant said Wednesday at the Lakers' training camp at the University of San Diego." I wish him the best at whatever he's doing now. I have responsibilities here, and that's what I have to take care of. That's it.''
> 
> Look, the bottom line here is that Phil's pissed because someone finally realized that he just isn't that important. Same thing with Shaq. Both of those guys have major ego problems. Not to say Kobe doesn't have a huge ego too, but at least he's kept his mouth shut. I'm sure there's a lot of stuff that he would like to say about the both of them, but he's moved on, and I respect that. I know if I were in his shoes, I definitely would have gone off on Shaq and Phil by now. I mean, why the hell does Phil care about Kobe's allowances? These guys really want to find something wrong in everything Kobe does. It's pretty pathetic. The two of them (Phil & Shaq) just can't accept the fact that the Lakers wanted Kobe instead of them.


Very well said, you nailed each and every point in that paragraph.


----------



## Vintage

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Phil Jackson on Kobe Byrant*



> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> 2000-2003: Kidd > Kobe
> 2000-2003: Kidd + Marion >> Kobe
> 2004: Kidd + Marion > Kobe



Bibby > Payton
Christie < Bryant
Stojakovic > George
Webber > Malone
Miller < O'Neal


So why weren't the Kings better than the Lakers if 3/5 SL starters are better?

Because it doesn't work like that........

And neither does your example.


----------



## jc76ers

ehl



> <strike>Why is jc allowed to post here? Isn't there a grade school BBB.net board he can go read?</strike>(personal attacks on posters are not allowed.trm) :nonono:


seriously ehl...you got some major issues...why come out with the insults??? is it because your still bitter that you never win any arguments against me???

<strike>why is ehl allowed to post here? isn't there a i-am-an-idiot bbb.net board he can go read???</strike><font color=blue>( eventually, a moderator will catch derogatory remarks. BUT, why on earth would you THEN resort to the same verbal exchange as the one you rightly ascertain as unacceptable???? trm)</font>


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> seriously ehl...you got some major issues...why come out with the insults??? is it because your still bitter that you never win any arguments against me???
> 
> 
> 
> It's hard to win arguments when you don't actually make any. Stuff like "AI tore up Kobe in the 01 Finals" is fun to say for some, certainly doesn't mean it's true (it's not). Just one of many examples that shows you started watching basketball last season.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> why is ehl allowed to post here? isn't there a i-am-an-idiot bbb.net board he can go read???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was this an attempt at humor? :laugh:
Click to expand...


----------



## jc76ers

ehl,



> It's hard to win arguments when you don't actually make any. Stuff like "AI tore up Kobe in the 01 Finals" is fun to say for some, certainly doesn't mean it's true (it's not). Just one of many examples that shows you started watching basketball last season.


yes, if you actually watch basketball and not kobe's balls all the time, you will notice that AI did tear up kobe in the finals....kobe couldn't stop him. nobody could that year....and don't give me the bull about the FG%....thats just how iverson shoots...if you're gonna say he was ineffective because of only FG% then you don't really know bball. 

let me ask you something...has ANYONE ever tore up kobe in ANY game??? any one??? any one??? knowing the history of your love affection for kobe, you don't have to answer...its written on the wall....


----------



## IV

The point he's making is you are greatly exagerrating Iverson's performance in the finals. He was as good as he could have possibly been, we know this, but he didn't tear Kobe up the entire Finals, and that's certain not grounds for you to revoke Kobe's all league defense reckognition.


----------



## Cap

Yup, pretty much what IV said. But I fail to see why you're commenting on any of this jc, you started watching basketball last season and aren't old enough to legally view porn.


----------



## jc76ers

iv...



> The point he's making is you are greatly exagerrating Iverson's performance in the finals. He was as good as he could have possibly been, we know this, but he didn't tear Kobe up the entire Finals, and that's certain not grounds for you to revoke Kobe's all league defense reckognition.


its not exaggerating....look at iversons stats for the finals...they are simply amazing....its well documented that lue played just to guard AI...when your 10th man gets playing time to guard the opposing superstars guard, there is something wrong. and normally blame is placed on the opposing teams best defender (according to many here, it is kobe). kobe tried and he failed miserably.

and i am not revoking kobe's all league recognition....i was responding to the topic of kobe being perfect in the finals/playoffs....and the fact is...he wasn't...he couldn't shut down AI. sure, he was good offensively, but couldn't do anything against AI. 

ehl,



> Yup, pretty much what IV said. But I fail to see why you're commenting on any of this jc, you started watching basketball last season and aren't old enough to legally view porn.


your idiotic response just proves that you have no sense of rational thought. what the hell does basketball or age have anything to do with porn?? maybe YOU just finished watching porn of kobe in a buff body lifting weights. 

if you would actually cutback on the idiotic responses, i would respond to you normally like i did with IV. unfortunately, you are so in love with the rat that you lost all sense of reality.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Yup, pretty much what IV said. But I fail to see why you're commenting on any of this jc, you started watching basketball last season and aren't old enough to legally view porn.


Kobe's body guards are starting to get sensitive!


----------



## Cap

> your idiotic response just proves that you have no sense of rational thought. what the hell does basketball or age have anything to do with porn?? maybe YOU just finished watching porn of kobe in a buff body lifting weights.
> 
> if you would actually cutback on the idiotic responses, i would respond to you normally like i did with IV. unfortunately, you are so in love with the rat that you lost all sense of reality.


It really had nothing to do with porn (though you're not old enough to watch it, which speaks to your basketball history). That said, your response to IV lacked the usual substance. Lue guarded AI because he was very quick and had the energy fresh off the bench to give him some considerable trouble scoring. The fact that Kobe didn't guard him for those stretches says nothing about his ability to guard AI. If it did, you'd call Jordan an overrated defender because he never guarded the best offensive player on the opposing team for more than a few critical stretches during a game. Of course, as usual, you fail to see the logic in saving your best player's legs for other things (scoring, rebounding, etc.). 



> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe's body guards are starting to get sensitive!


Sam Cassell drives the lane....and it's a pull up!


----------



## Hov

..Being a Kobe fan is tough work. :laugh:


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> ......... The fact that Kobe didn't guard him for those stretches says nothing about his ability to guard AI. If it did, <b>you'd call Jordan an overrated defender because he never guarded the best offensive player on the opposing team for more than a few critical stretches during a game.</b> <u>Of course, as usual, you fail to see the logic in saving your best player's legs for other things (scoring, rebounding, etc.). </u>
> 
> 
> 
> Sam Cassell drives the lane....and it's a pull up!


That was my exact reasoning when "people" said that TMac should have played defense the way he did offense, while with Orlando. It's a shame many fans cannot see that same reasoning holds true for more players than just Kobe.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> That was my exact reasoning when "people" said that TMac should have played defense the way he did offense, while with Orlando. It's a shame many fans cannot see that same reasoning holds true for more players than just Kobe.


Don't look at me, I'm not one of those "people".


----------



## jc76ers

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> It really had nothing to do with porn (though you're not old enough to watch it, which speaks to your basketball history). That said, your response to IV lacked the usual substance. Lue guarded AI because he was very quick and had the energy fresh off the bench to give him some considerable trouble scoring. The fact that Kobe didn't guard him for those stretches says nothing about his ability to guard AI. If it did, you'd call Jordan an overrated defender because he never guarded the best offensive player on the opposing team for more than a few critical stretches during a game. Of course, as usual, you fail to see the logic in saving your best player's legs for other things (scoring, rebounding, etc.).


go back and watch the finals again....kobe DID guard AI in game 1...in the first half....it was him and fisher....he stunk up the joint. afterwards phil thought lue played AI the best so he was assigned to play him....i'm sure you remember lue dressing up as AI in practice. 

just face it...kobe tried to guard AI in the finals, but he was ineffective...at least in game 1.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> Sam Cassell drives the lane....and it's a pull up!


Exactly what I expected from you...you're really starting to reach.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> 
> 
> go back and watch the finals again....kobe DID guard AI in game 1...in the first half....it was him and fisher....he stunk up the joint. afterwards phil thought lue played AI the best so he was assigned to play him....i'm sure you remember lue dressing up as AI in practice.
> 
> just face it...kobe tried to guard AI in the finals, but he was ineffective...at least in game 1.


Incorrect. 



> Exactly what I expected from you...you're really starting to reach.


*I'm* starting to reach? Yeah, I guess you had no hand in this conversation starting in the first place!


----------



## jc76ers

ehl,

if you refuse to acknowledge at the facts, then theres no point in talking to you because you only acknowledge facts that kiss kobe's butt.....watch the game again unbiasedly and you will fisher started on AI...AI scored...then kobe tried....AI wiped the floor with kobe's butt...then it was halftime...and lue was brought in. there you have it in a nutshell....too bad you don't like facts.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> ehl,
> 
> if you refuse to acknowledge at the facts, then theres no point in talking to you because you only acknowledge facts that kiss kobe's butt.....watch the game again unbiasedly and you will fisher started on AI...AI scored...then kobe tried....AI wiped the floor with kobe's butt...then it was halftime...and lue was brought in. there you have it in a nutshell....too bad you don't like facts.


Fact; you started watching basketball just last season.


----------



## John

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Fact; you started watching basketball just last season.


EHL, you cant just say that man. You act like a loser.


----------



## bballlife

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Fact; you started watching basketball just last season.


Ya so why are you going back and forth with him? Its clear as day he has no clue what he is talking about.


----------



## bballlife

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> iv...
> 
> 
> 
> its not exaggerating....look at iversons stats for the finals...they are simply amazing....its well documented that lue played just to guard AI...when your 10th man gets playing time to guard the opposing superstars guard, there is something wrong. and normally blame is placed on the opposing teams best defender (according to many here, it is kobe). kobe tried and he failed miserably.
> 
> and i am not revoking kobe's all league recognition....i was responding to the topic of kobe being perfect in the finals/playoffs....and the fact is...he wasn't...he couldn't shut down AI. sure, he was good offensively, but couldn't do anything against AI.
> 
> ehl,
> 
> 
> 
> your idiotic response just proves that you have no sense of rational thought. what the hell does basketball or age have anything to do with porn?? maybe YOU just finished watching porn of kobe in a buff body lifting weights.
> 
> if you would actually cutback on the idiotic responses, i would respond to you normally like i did with IV. unfortunately, you are so in love with the rat that you lost all sense of reality.


Please stop, you are wrong.

Try posting 10 years from now when you have actually seen some games.


----------



## RP McMurphy

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> Ya so why are you going back and forth with him? Its clear as day he has no clue what he is talking about.


I'd have to agree, these pissing contests are boring. Just respond with a :greatjob: and be on your way.


----------



## John

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> Ya so why are you going back and forth with him? Its clear as day he has no clue what he is talking about.


Talk about clueness, I hate the entire Minnie city! So I have no clue as well eh?


----------



## jc76ers

ehl,

i know all about the type of fan you are...i see them each day at work. You're probably somewhere between the ages of 25-30 and started watching basketball in the mid to late 80's when the Lakers were the dominant team. That's why you picked them to be your team...you just hopped on the bandwagon. thats probably when you were somewhere between 10-15 - the age when kids start gaining an interest in sports. The lakers of the 80's made an impression on you and you wanted to be in the "in" crowd so you rooted for them like mad. You're favorite football team is probably either the giants or niners. Or maybe the raiders since you seem to be uncouth and from LA, or at least been leaving here for a few years.
its okay if you're current hero is not perfect. its alright man....take a moment and compose yourself and move on....all this name-calling and ridicule towards different opinions is bad for your health.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> ehl,
> 
> i know all about the type of fan you are...i see them each day at work. You're probably somewhere between the ages of 25-30 and started watching basketball in the mid to late 80's when the Lakers were the dominant team. That's why you picked them to be your team...you just hopped on the bandwagon. thats probably when you were somewhere between 10-15 - the age when kids start gaining an interest in sports. The lakers of the 80's made an impression on you and you wanted to be in the "in" crowd so you rooted for them like mad. You're favorite football team is probably either the giants or niners. Or maybe the raiders since you seem to be uncouth and from LA, or at least been leaving here for a few years.
> its okay if you're current hero is not perfect. its alright man....take a moment and compose yourself and move on....all this name-calling and ridicule towards different opinions is bad for your health.


I became a Laker fan because I was born and raised in LA, pure and simple. I thank Allah that I got to watch some of Showtime live, had nothing to do with bandwagoning. 

That said, I'm done. <b><strike>But you're still ghey.</strike>

I have edited you more than I wanted to - you KNOW that you are breaking the rules when you get PERSONAL with your attacks on other posters. :nonono:


----------



## jc76ers

ehl,




> That said, I'm done. But you're still ghey.


haha....look who's talking...I'm not the one that superimposed my hero's face onto some buff body....Of all the retorts you come back with, you wanted to bring up being "ghey". hahahahahaaaaa


----------



## reHEATed

very nice article by Wilbon on the situation



> Every morning, it seems, Kobe Bryant wakes up and has to pull an arrow out of his backside. From the east Shaq takes aim every few days, though it's usually comical and we've grown used to Shaq poking Kobe with a stick, now from 3,000 miles away in Miami. But these newest shots are being fired from Big Sky Country or wherever Phil Jackson was summering when he took the entries from his daily diary and made them into a book called "The Last Season, a Team in Search of Its Soul."
> 
> 
> There's nothing lighthearted or comical about Jackson's assessment of Bryant, whom the former Lakers coach portrays as a egomaniac who ultimately undermined last season's team. Jackson says in the book he grew so tired of battling with Bryant he tried to get him traded before last season's trade deadline. Jackson recalled one conversation with GM Mitch Kupchack in which he said, "I won't coach this team next year if he is still here. He won't listen to anyone. I've had it with this kid."
> 
> Okay, it's one thing to hear Shaq or some former teammate take shots at a peer; that happens in every locker room in America. *But to hear a coach with Jackson's credentials and credibility rip Bryant on the record and in great detail is a stunner and amounts to an indictment. What is Kobe going to say to refute Jackson? "He's jealous!" I don't think so, since Jackson has 11 NBA championship rings (nine as a coach, two as a player). *What this also means is that even though Jackson is up in his cabin and Shaq is in Miami, and Kobe is the only one left in Los Angeles, we will still have the Phil- Kobe-Shaq Triangle of Doom for at least as long as Jackson is stumping to promote his book.
> 
> *Jackson's revelations and Shaq's pointed criticisms make it clear that the stories of the friction on that team were, if anything, underreported. And it raises the question of just how deep and intense their dislike for Kobe was. Apparently all of Jackson's Zen couldn't balance him when it came to dealing with Kobe, and the coach hired a therapist to consult during the season after coming to the conclusion that "a major confrontation between the two of us [seemed] unavoidable."*
> 
> I completely disagree with the notion that Jackson should somehow be above the fray and shouldn't have put the criticism of Kobe in ink *because it's indisputable now that Kobe, favored by owner Jerry Buss, drove Shaq to Miami and Phil to a shrink*. All three tend their images very carefully. So, Phil and Shaq get to shoot arrows if they want, and what does it hurt anybody anyway since it's just the adult version of sticks-and-stones?
> 
> Even so, the most fascinating, difficult-to-peg figure in all of this, easily, is Kobe. I've spent enough time with him over the past four years to find him thoughtful, engaging, diverse and usually charming. *But I've talked to enough of his teammates to know many of them, even if we exclude Shaq, feel he's self-absorbed, high-handed, agenda-driven and condescending. I've defended Kobe in this space after he was booed in his home town of Philadelphia for no good reason at the conclusion of a recent all-star game. And I've ripped into him for playing disturbingly selfish basketball during last June's NBA Finals between the Lakers and Pistons when it seemed winning was secondary to proving his point. *
> 
> And none of this even touches the allegation, since dropped, that he sexually assaulted a woman in Colorado and all the melodrama that flowed from thatepisode.
> 
> He appears to be a young man of whom a lot of stuff, much of it conflicting, is true. And he also appears to be a public figure who will live the next dozen years in the spotlight, playing and living in Hollywood, where everything he does in and out of basketball will be examined to death. And it's tough not to wonder how in the world a kid with so much going for him has run afoul of so many people and become so resented despite his talents.
> 
> First, it's too bad the kid wasn't made by his parents to go to college. And yes, I mean made to go. Several times, after playing fabulously or hitting a dramatic shot to lift the Lakers to victory, Bryant, knowing my position on skipping college, has said to me in the locker room, "Still think I needed to go to college?"
> 
> The answer, louder than ever now, is yes, both for basketball and personal growth. He needed very desperately to negotiate that formal transition in his life from childhood to manhood. He needed a college coach who could ride him and not fear for his job. He needed to learn how, literally, to play with others. He needed to learn not how to pass a basketball, but when. He needed to learn how and why it is necessary to rely on teammates.
> 
> *These are holes in his résumé that have been there all along, just covered up because he played for a great coach, with a great big man who has a tremendous amount of talent and creativity himself. Still, there's so much he doesn't appear to get, and at 26 when you've got all the money in the world, three championship rings, and once again freedom, maybe he'll never get it. If we are to believe Jackson, and I do to an extent, there's a basic immaturity in Bryant that makes him ill-suited to a team sport, at the very least.
> 
> Okay, he doesn't get a do-over on a decision he made nine years ago and given his riches one he probably wouldn't make any differently anyway.
> 
> But at some point he's going to have to deal with criticism from those close to him in some way other than, "I'm right and everybody else is wrong."
> 
> He goes into a season in a couple of weeks with a team dramatically less than the teams he played on that included Jackson and Shaq. The Lakers look to be the sixth or seventh best team in the West, doomed to the middle-of-the pack no matter how many points Kobe scores. In the first preseason game he played 41 minutes and took 13 three-pointers, which suggests he'd rather play his way than another way that gives him a better chance to win.
> 
> Jackson's book confirms to many of us what all the signs from last season pointed to: that Bryant wanted to give it a go without Shaq and without Jackson. And as talented and as willful as Bryant is, he will find out through a grueling and closely watched season whether he ought to have been more careful about what he asked for. *


*

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6252289/*


----------



## Spriggan

I bet $20 JNice comes in here and says "so I guess Wilbon is whining now."



Well, I bet $20 he *would* have.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> I bet $20 JNice comes in here and says "so I guess Wilbon is whining now."
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I bet $20 he *would* have.


I would say it sounds like Wilbon is dead on. Kobe takes a lot of unfair criticism, but it also appears that much of the criticism he takes is well deserved.


----------



## Pinball

I hate the guy but that was a solid piece by Wilbon.


----------



## sweet_constipation

> Originally posted by *jc76ers*
> _ehl,
> 
> i know all about the type of fan you are...i see them each day at work. You're probably somewhere between the ages of 25-30 and started watching basketball in the mid to late 80's when the Lakers were the dominant team. That's why you picked them to be your team...you just hopped on the bandwagon. thats probably when you were somewhere between 10-15 - the age when kids start gaining an interest in sports. The lakers of the 80's made an impression on you and you wanted to be in the "in" crowd so you rooted for them like mad. You're favorite football team is probably either the giants or niners. Or maybe the raiders since you seem to be uncouth and from LA, or at least been leaving here for a few years.
> its okay if you're current hero is not perfect. its alright man....take a moment and compose yourself and move on....all this name-calling and ridicule towards different opinions is bad for your health._



......Dr. Phil?


----------



## bballlife

<strike>Wilbon also has down syndrome.</strike><font color=blue>(Since Down's Syndrome is a genetic defect, it is therefore not to be ridiculed or subjected to anything derogatory! trm)</font> :nonono:


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> Wilbon also has down syndrome.


Sorry to disappoint you, man, but Kobe isn't perfect.

Can't you admit to any of his faults?


----------



## reHEATed

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> Wilbon also has down syndrome.


he has a lot more information and insiders than you do, thats for sure. A homeristic Kobe jocker against a professional journalist who spent a lot of time with the Lakers last year since he was at the nba finals covering it. Who to beleive. Very difficult decision

He says the others were somewhat at fault, but Kobe did some stuff as well. He states teammates other than Shaq were saying the same things, but not in the media. 

Kobe has some weaknesses, whether you care to realize them or not is your busniess, but Wilbon knows a lot more than you do, but since he says Kobe isnt Mr Pefect, he has down syndrome. Kobe isnt perfect. He was a lot to blame for what happened (along with Phil and Shaq. I realize that)

heres a quote from Wilbon that you should follow


> But at some point he's going to have to deal with criticism from those close to him in some way other than, "I'm right and everybody else is wrong."


he is being critized from a lot of people. Doesnt that show that he did something to deserve it.


----------



## HKF

My only point about this whole thing is if Kobe tried to defend himself, people probably would still say well Phil and Shaq believe differently, so then it must be his fault and thus we shouldn't believe his side at all.

Still have to wonder about a coach who writes a book right after the season ends on purpose. 

It doesn't matter to moi though, because this **** is over and it's time to move on, only two of them can't. Neither can the media, who feel these kinds of things (while they are finished) are still worth discussing, when all types of amazing stories around the league are ready to be discussed.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> Wilbon also has down syndrome.


Wow, good one.

:hurl:


----------



## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> Sorry to disappoint you, man, but Kobe isn't perfect.
> 
> <b>Can't you admit to any of his faults?</b>


This is one obvious example that irritates Laker fans. It is obvious that Kobe has faults - duh, we all do. WhatEVER that has to do with being a Laker fan supporting their star player is beyond me.

When one is logical, watches the game with some delight, one can easily see that Kobe has game - and that is ALL any fan should judge.


----------



## bballlife

> Originally posted by <b>Spriggan</b>!
> 
> 
> Sorry to disappoint you, man, but Kobe isn't perfect.
> 
> Can't you admit to any of his faults?


Im not disappointed the least bit. 

I have noted some of his faults before, but I am exhausted of everyone going on and on about them. Nobody is perfect as we all know, why do we have to lambaste him for every little thing he has done. 

All of the assumptions and judgments on this guy need to stop, my defense of him comes from endless bs.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> Im not disappointed the least bit.
> 
> I have noted some of his faults before, but I am exhausted of everyone going on and on about them. Nobody is perfect as we all know, why do we have to lambast him for every little thing he has done.
> 
> All of the assumptions and judgments on this guy need to stop, my defense of him comes from endless bs.


For the most part he isn't getting lambasted for "little" things. If Kobe stopped giving people reasons to criticize him, there wouldn't be much criticism. Unfortunately for Kobe, I think the things he is getting criticized for are rooted within his personality and aren't likely to go away any day soon.


----------



## bballlife

> Originally posted by <b>wadeshaqeddie</b>!
> 
> 
> he has a lot more information and insiders than you do, thats for sure. A homeristic Kobe jocker against a professional journalist who spent a lot of time with the Lakers last year since he was at the nba finals covering it. Who to beleive. Very difficult decision
> 
> He says the others were somewhat at fault, but Kobe did some stuff as well. He states teammates other than Shaq were saying the same things, but not in the media.
> 
> Kobe has some weaknesses, whether you care to realize them or not is your busniess, but Wilbon knows a lot more than you do, but since he says Kobe isnt Mr Pefect, he has down syndrome. Kobe isnt perfect. He was a lot to blame for what happened (along with Phil and Shaq. I realize that)
> 
> heres a quote from Wilbon that you should follow
> 
> he is being critized from a lot of people. Doesnt that show that he did something to deserve it.


I never said anyone was perfect or ideal. My problem is with all of the people only calling it one way. Wilbon needs to write an article about his buddy Shaq and what a classless egomaniac he is. 

I have no respect for Wilbon though, he is horrible on PTI, too confident in his own stupidity. 

This is the same guy who has trouble coming up with 3 players on the Sonics or Raptors. 


He is a journalist and good for him, but his flawed analysis, and shallow overall knowledge of the game are enough for me to dismiss just about everything he says or writes.


----------



## bballlife

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> For the most part he isn't getting lambasted for "little" things. If Kobe stopped giving people reasons to criticize him, there wouldn't be much criticism. Unfortunately for Kobe, I think the things he is getting criticized for are rooted within his personality and aren't likely to go away any day soon.


Well then I think Its safe to say that nearly all of these criticisms are from the past, or during the Phil, Shaq, Kobe era. Times have changed, Kobe has certainly changed. 

If you go on the Laker board or read newspapers around LA, there is nothing but good things to say about him, lots of praise from teammates and the coaching staff. Lots of positive, notable changes around the organization, on and off the court. 

Things have changed and i still believe those problems in the past were largely due to Phil and Shaq.


----------



## Half-aMAziNg

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> I never said anyone was perfect or ideal. My problem is with all of the people only calling it one way. Wilbon needs to write an article about his buddy Shaq and what a classless egomania he is.
> 
> I have no respect for Wilbon though, he is horrible on PTI, too confident in his own stupidity.
> 
> This is the same guy who has trouble coming up with 3 players on the Sonics or Raptors.
> 
> 
> He is a journalist and good for him, *but his flawed analysis, and shallow overall knowledge of the game* are enough for me to dismiss just about everything he says or writes.


If that were true, he wouldent have a job. Just because he told us all the obvious about Kobe and it happened to be something bad about him, doesent mean that the people who like Kobe have to "Dismiss" what he says

Since you think his analysis is flawed, what if Wilbon had written something good about Kobe? Something that made Kobe look good to the public? Would you still think Wilbon has no knowledge and dismiss his comments? I Doubt It


----------



## HKF

I don't think anything Wilbon said needs to be dismissed, however, when will the scathing articles about Phil Jackson and Shaquille O'Neal come out? Will they ever come out? Will anyone even look into discussing them? 

I guess since Kobe is the only one still standing when the dust settles, we'll have to hear about this, till they die. Shaq will keep talking about it even when he is not in the league anymore. 

I would be shocked if Kobe talks about it once this year, yet you will see attack after attack lobbed at him. Now my question to non-biased people here is, when is enough enough? Wouldn't it be tiime to move on? Hasn't it gotten to the point, where Shaq should just say I don't care what Kobe is doing? 

Like when I hear media pundits say they are tired of talking about it, yet they report on it daily. This whole thing seems to not make a lick of sense. I guess Kobe is the anti-christ and the Lakers won in spite of him. When he was destroying the Pacers in 2000 and the Spurs in 2002, I doubt everyone thought he was the anti-christ then. 

They're all petty and at fault, but no one says anything about the two who keep firing the ammunition at all, when they've been in cohoots the whole time. I think I am done posting on the bash Kobe threads, because there are just too many to keep my thoughts straight regarding this matter.

And yes JNice, I am a Kobe mark.


----------



## Half-aMAziNg

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> Well then I think Its safe to say that nearly all of these criticisms are from the past, or during the Phil, Shaq, Kobe era. Times have changed, Kobe has certainly changed.
> 
> *If you go on the Laker board or read newspapers around LA, there is nothing but good things to say about him, lots of praise from teammates and the coaching staff. Lots of positive, notable changes around the organization, on and off the court. *
> 
> Things have changed and i still believe those problems in the past were largely due to Phil and Shaq.


Do you really think that the city he plays for and the organization he plays for would say negative things about him? Of course not. Remember when Shaq said that Kobe was the best player in the league and some years would even talk about how if you dont think Kobe is the MVP, you need to go drink some Ant Poisining?? And remember when Phil said Kobe was just as good as MJ? They dont seem to think that anymore...they only said positive things about him because he played with them at the time. Remember all of the positive things said about Shaq when he played for the Lakers and now everyone in LA dislikes him and even Tex Winters is now calling him overrated...Stuff like this happens all the time

I would bet anyone a great number of dollars that over half of the Laker organization doesent particularly like Kobe at all but of course they will say positive things about him because if you say something negative about him, you know he will have you kicked off that team in a heartbeat


----------



## bballlife

> Originally posted by <b>Chi§e³</b>!
> 
> 
> If that were true, he wouldent have a job. Just because he told us all the obvious about Kobe and it happened to be something bad about him, doesent mean that the people who like Kobe have to "Dismiss" what he says
> 
> Since you think his analysis is flawed, what if Wilbon had written something good about Kobe? Something that made Kobe look good to the public? Would you still think Wilbon has no knowledge and dismiss his comments? I Doubt It



You must have missed some of my points. Wilbon is indeed a successful journalist with a show on ESPN, that might give him instant credibility with the basic fan, but not with me. Not when I have clearly observed that his knowledge of the game is not that deep. 

Strong opinion + shallow knowledge= flawed analysis.


----------



## bballlife

> Originally posted by <b>Chi§e³</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you really think that the city he plays for and the organization he plays for would say negative things about him? Of course not. Remember when Shaq said that Kobe was the best player in the league and some years would even talk about how if you dont think Kobe is the MVP, you need to go drink some Ant Poisining?? And remember when Phil said Kobe was just as good as MJ? They dont seem to think that anymore...they only said positive things about him because he played with them at the time. Remember all of the positive things said about Shaq when he played for the Lakers and now everyone in LA dislikes him and even Tex Winters is now calling him overrated...Stuff like this happens all the time
> 
> I would bet anyone a great number of dollars that over half of the Laker organization doesent particularly like Kobe at all but of course they will say positive things about him because if you say something negative about him, you know he will have you kicked off that team in a heartbeat


Everything I said went way over your head, and after reading this post, I now know not to waste my time.


----------



## Half-aMAziNg

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> You must have missed some of my points. Wilbon is indeed a successful journalist with a show on ESPN, that might give him instant credibility with the basic fan, but not with me. Not when I have clearly observed that his knowledge of the game is not that deep.
> 
> Strong opinion + shallow knowledge= flawed analysis.


Well then I guess we don't have any knowledgeable(sp) journalists in the world, or is that only implied to the ones who disrespect Kobe?


----------



## Half-aMAziNg

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> Everything I said went way over your head, and after reading this post, I now know not to waste my time.


Didnt go over my head, I was just replying to your "The whole city and organization says nothing but good things about the guy" argument

Please explain to me what went over my head


----------



## el_Diablo

> Well then I think Its safe to say that nearly all of these criticisms are from the past, or during the Phil, Shaq, Kobe era. Times have changed, Kobe has certainly changed.


uhh. shaq, phil and kobe era sure is long gone. so kobe changed his personality in four months, based on what? I'm not saying this isn't possible, just _very_ unlikely.



> If you go on the Laker board or read newspapers around LA, there is nothing but good things to say about him, lots of praise from teammates and the coaching staff. Lots of positive, notable changes around the organization, on and off the court.


uhh. no one talks smack about a *teammate* who has the power within the organization to drive away shaquille o'neal and phil jackson.

still, I'm not saying that kobe isn't in the right (shaq is an idiot and has always been), but the point that teammates aren't saying negative things doesn't prove anything. 

I have no respect (off court) for shaq, or kobe, but phil jackson is one of the best coaches ever. he must know something. or he has decided to quit coaching for good and is trying to sell his book (and that's bad...)

by the way, what I don't get is why people keep bashing him. 9 championships in 14 years should be enough. bulls won in his second season and lakers in his first.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> Well then I think Its safe to say that nearly all of these criticisms are from the past, or during the Phil, Shaq, Kobe era. Times have changed, Kobe has certainly changed.


Yeah, most of them are from the past because only recently is when the events surrounding the criticisms have become public knowledge. And when there were criticisms about Kobe's selfishness and attitude almost the whole time he was in LA, though they weren't as magnified as they are now, there is no reason that is just going to go away.

I don't believe Kobe has changed, at least not changed what is the root of his problems with other people, his immense ego. 



> If you go on the Laker board or read newspapers around LA, there is nothing but good things to say about him, lots of praise from teammates and the coaching staff. Lots of positive, notable changes around the organization, on and off the court.


:laugh: 

What would you expect from the Laker board and local media? And of course the organization is going to give nothing but happy reports on everything. It is the same organization that just traded the most dominating player on the planet and they know everyone is watching them and that many want them to severely fail. They can't give any hint of weakness, even if it was present.




> Things have changed and i still believe those problems in the past were largely due to Phil and Shaq.


Shaq and Phil both had there roles in the problems. But it is pretty obvious that Kobe's self-absorbed attitude was the main catalyst for the problems. You'd think that if you are a player whose only concern is winning then you wouldn't have much of a problem conforming to the rules and the system of one of the winningest and highly regarded coaches in NBA history and accepting a role of second fiddle to the most dominating player on the planet.


----------



## kflo

it seems pretty obvious in this nba game of survivor, phil and shaq aligned themselves together. they've both since been voted off the island, and continue their alliance against the one the believe sabatoged their stay.

personally, i think they've all got issues, and they all have huge egos that got in the way. however, it was phil's job to manage those egos. sounds like he lost faith in his own ability to get the job done, and had a tough time separating himself from what was going on. kobe/shaq together tested phil's ability as the guy you want to keep unity - the failure of the '04 season falls on all of them, as does the fallout.

this book isn't the objective view of an unbiased observer. phil wasn't just an observer to the soap opera - he was fully a part of it.


----------



## bballlife

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, most of them are from the past because only recently is when the events surrounding the criticisms have become public knowledge. And when there were criticisms about Kobe's selfishness and attitude almost the whole time he was in LA, though they weren't as magnified as they are now, there is no reason that is just going to go away.
> 
> I don't believe Kobe has changed, at least not changed what is the root of his problems with other people, his immense ego.
> 
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> 
> What would you expect from the Laker board and local media? And of course the organization is going to give nothing but happy reports on everything. It is the same organization that just traded the most dominating player on the planet and they know everyone is watching them and that many want them to severely fail. They can't give any hint of weakness, even if it was present.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shaq and Phil both had there roles in the problems. But it is pretty obvious that Kobe's self-absorbed attitude was the main catalyst for the problems. You'd think that if you are a player whose only concern is winning then you wouldn't have much of a problem conforming to the rules and the system of one of the winningest and highly regarded coaches in NBA history and accepting a role of second fiddle to the most dominating player on the planet.


Keep on assuming. 


Latest issue of ESPN the magazine page 122.

Says that Kobe rides the team bus to practice, trains in the team weight room, and even eats with his teammates. "All solo projects for Kobe in the past." 

There is a source that is not biased.

Ever think for a second now that the dysfunctional duo is gone, Kobe can be himself?


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> Says that Kobe rides the team bus to practice, trains in the team weight room, and even eats with his teammates. "All solo projects for Kobe in the past."


:laugh: 

So now he is doing what most normal people do? Congrats to him. That doesn't mean his incredible ego is a thing of the past.


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> 
> So now he is doing what most normal people do? Congrats to him. That doesn't mean his incredible ego is a thing of the past.


Very true, but it doesn't mean we have to assume that he hasn't matured at least somewhat and sees what he needs to do. That coin can be flipped both ways.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Very true, but it doesn't mean we have to assume that he hasn't matured at least somewhat and sees what he needs to do. That coin can be flipped both ways.


Very true. But it is much easier to assume things will stay as they have been for a long time rather than to assume suddenly things have changed. I just think Mr. bballlife would earn a lot more respect for his opinion if he would actually concede something in regards to Mr. Bryant, but I doubt that is going to happen since he is the same guy that refused to believe that there was any chance Kobe might never get another ring the rest of his career, regardless of how magnificent he plays.


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Very true. But it is much easier to assume things will stay as they have been for a long time rather than to assume suddenly things have changed. I just think Mr. bballlife would earn a lot more respect for his opinion if he would actually concede something in regards to Mr. Bryant, but I doubt that is going to happen since he is the same guy that refused to believe that there was any chance Kobe might never get another ring the rest of his career, regardless of how magnificent he plays.


Well assuming that Kobe plays till he 36 at least, he's got 10 more years to at least get close. I don't doubt he will at least be in contention to win another title, but too many things can happen to say he WILL win one. I hope he does though.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Well assuming that Kobe plays till he 36 at least, he's got 10 more years to at least get close. I don't doubt he will at least be in contention to win another title, but too many things can happen to say he WILL win one. I hope he does though.


Exactly. Kobe could be absolutely awesome the rest of his career and not even necessarily make it to even another Finals depending on how good the team around him is. But only a supreme homer wouldn't be able to recognize that.


----------



## sweet_constipation

I seriously don't know why people are still trying to put the majority of blame on only one of these egotistical drama queens.
It's like trying to argue which one of the Golden Girls you wouldn't sleep with.
:yes: 


And for those asking where are the Shaq and Phil articles.....don't worry, they'll arrive in mass quantities before the season is over.
Just the way the corporations like the NBA and BSPN work.


----------



## Half-aMAziNg

> Originally posted by <b>sweet_constipation</b>!
> *I seriously don't know why people are still trying to put the majority of blame on only one of these egotistical drama queens.*
> It's like trying to argue which one of the Golden Girls you wouldn't sleep with.
> :yes:
> 
> 
> And for those asking where are the Shaq and Phil articles.....don't worry, they'll arrive in mass quantities before the season is over.
> Just the way the corporations like the NBA and BSPN work.


Maybe because he is the only one we hear overwhelmingly bad stuff about. The guy is a headcase and is a selfish, arrogant, pompous, jerk. I think he deserves all of this criticism that he is recieving, maybe it will teach him a lesson and he can change his attitude and become alot more mature


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>Chi§e³</b>!
> 
> 
> Maybe because he is the only one we hear overwhelmingly bad stuff about. The guy is a headcase and is a selfish, arrogant, pompous, jerk. I think he deserves all of this criticism that he is recieving, maybe it will teach him a lesson and he can change his attitude and become alot more mature


Interesting. The way you sound, if there is no negative news coming out of Lakers camp, it would be, because they are afraid of speaking out for fear they will be dealt. This guy is in a no win situation if *all* the blame is going to be levied against him and no one else.


----------



## Half-aMAziNg

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> Keep on assuming.
> 
> 
> Latest issue of ESPN the magazine page 122.
> 
> *Says that Kobe rides the team bus to practice, trains in the team weight room, and even eats with his teammates. "All solo projects for Kobe in the past." *
> 
> There is a source that is not biased.
> 
> Ever think for a second now that the dysfunctional duo is gone, Kobe can be himself?


I didnt know that riding a bus and eating around people turns you from bad to good...

That seriously is News to me :dead:


----------



## Half-aMAziNg

I think Kobe is a great player, he just needs a swift kick in the butt. I dont care at all for him off the court, but I respect his game on the court

Kobe just rubs me the wrong way, he just seems to me like the villian in the world who is portrayed as a great guy and a goodie 2 shoe, but behind the cameras is a disturbed, arrogant, angry man

I just can't find it in my heart to take a liking to people that are like that


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>Chi§e³</b>!
> I think Kobe is a great player, he just needs a swift kick in the butt. I dont care at all for him off the court, but I respect his game on the court
> 
> Kobe just rubs me the wrong way, he just seems to me like the villian in the world who is portrayed as a great guy and a goodie 2 shoe, but behind the cameras is a disturbed, arrogant, angry man
> 
> I just can't find it in my heart to take a liking to people that are like that


Who says you have to like him as a person? I'm asking why do people absolve Phil Jackson and Shaquille O'Neal of blame. You have not answered that. Are they completely faultless?


----------



## Half-aMAziNg

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Who says you have to like him as a person? I'm asking why do people absolve Phil Jackson and Shaquille O'Neal of blame. You have not answered that. Are they completely faultless?


I still have yet to understand why people keep saying that we should blame Phil and Shaq....maybe you could tell me what they did to deserve any blame?? That's why I havent answered that


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>Chi§e³</b>!
> 
> 
> I still have yet to understand why people keep saying that we should blame Phil and Shaq....maybe you could tell me what they did to deserve any blame?? That's why I havent answered that


See answering my questions with more questions doesn't answer what I asked. If you are going to just shirk the questions I've asked, than just don't respond. Since you feel there is only one culprit in the Laker dismantling I will leave it at. 

I guess Phil and Shaq are perfect and Kobe is the saboteur. If some of you can't even accept that Phil and Shaq were part of the problem, why would you think anyone who likes Kobe or the Lakers would say that Kobe is 100% at fault?


----------



## Half-aMAziNg

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> See answering my questions with more questions doesn't answer what I asked. If you are going to just shirk the questions I've asked, than just don't respond. Since you feel there is only one culprit in the Laker dismantling I will leave it at.
> 
> I guess Phil and Shaq are perfect and Kobe is the saboteur. If some of you can't even accept that Phil and Shaq were part of the problem, why would you think anyone who likes Kobe or the Lakers would say that Kobe is 100% at fault?


Untill I Hear something negative about Phil and Shaq on a personal level, then there really isnt anything for me to blame them for

Not trying to sound like a grade A jerk, but what you're saying sounds like the typical response from the leader of the Kobe fanclub (If you get my point)


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>Chi§e³</b>!
> 
> 
> Untill I Hear something negative about Phil and Shaq on a personal level, then there really isnt anything for me to blame them for
> 
> Not trying to sound like a grade A jerk, but what you're saying sounds like the typical response from the leader of the Kobe fanclub (If you get my point)


Interesting. Since I asked legit questions of you, which you still haven't answered, I'm the leader of the Kobe fanclub. What does me being a Kobe fan have to do with you answering what I ask? Ask around this place, there is no one here who knows more about the game than me. If you want to believe that Phil and his Zen crap and Shaq and his constant little shenanigans are absolved from blame than have at it. Just because you've never seen anything with your eyes, doesn't mean that behind the scenes, they aren't something totally different in regards to dealing with Kobe. What makes them 100% credible? 

Kobe is obviously not even 50% credible. But what makes them credible. Especially Shaq, who has said more dumb **** than anyone in the league combined.


----------



## Cap

> Untill I Hear something negative about Phil and Shaq on a personal level, then there really isnt anything for me to blame them for


Are you being sarcastic? :uhoh:


----------



## Half-aMAziNg

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Interesting. Since I asked legit questions of you, which you still haven't answered, I'm the leader of the Kobe fanclub. What does me being a Kobe fan have to do with you answering what I ask? Ask around this place, there is no one here who knows more about the game than me. If you want to believe that Phil and his Zen crap and Shaq and his constant little shenanigans are absolved from blame than have at it. Just because you've never seen anything with your eyes, doesn't mean that behind the scenes, they aren't something totally different in regards to dealing with Kobe. What makes them 100% credible?
> 
> Kobe is obviously not even 50% credible. But what makes them credible. Especially Shaq, who has said more dumb **** than anyone in the league combined.


So now it's not fair for someone to dislike Kobe?? Everything I'm hearing about him is exactly what I hate in a person (Do you understand that?) and he seems like a complete wacko. 

Why is it that just because this is about Kobe, we have to either like Kobe, or hate everyone on this planet? Because that is basically what you are saying. You are saying that Phil and Shaq arent perfect, no one is, I Know that, I dont live in a cave. But I also havent heard Phil Jackson whine about the kind of plane he is riding in after a court case and irritating someone to the point of therapy

Basically the point you are trying to make is that even though we hear negative things about Kobe, we should still love the guy because no one is perfect and everyone else does exactly what Kobe does and is still loved

whatever


----------



## HKF

Where did I ever say to love Kobe? I never said that once. If you don't like Kobe that's fine. You don't have to like him. You are the one who is basically making it seem as if Kobe is the only one to blame in the Lakers mess. 

However, to assert full blame upon him is wrong and misguided. Obviously all parties share blame. 

So whatever right back at you buddy. Basically what you want to do is run the man down at any chance you can. Are you sure you're not a former banned person of this message board?


----------



## el_Diablo

to me it seems that the relationship between kobe and shaq was so strained last season, that even phil couldn't fix it to the level that they would be able to succeed. and it destoyed (if you can say a western conference champion was destroyed) the lakers last season.

he sided with shaq to some level, which imho is understandable, even if he knew shaq was in the wrong. they couldn't have won anything without a "happy" shaq. kobe got pissed, and at some point stopped doing what phil wanted (understandably pissed, but it along the injuries may just have cost them the championship, or at least a chance for real finals). 

well, my opinion this is probably based on the fact that jackson is the only guy of the three that I like and respect (off court). but anyway...


----------



## sweet_constipation

> *At times the pettiness between the two of them can be unbelievably juvenile. Shaquille won't allow himself to be taped before a game by Gary Vitti because he's too aligned with Kobe. Kobe won't let Chip Schaefer, Shaq's guy, tape him. Reporters aren't immune from these territorial disputes. If a writer lingers too often around one superstar's locker, he is likely to be shut out by the other.*




Somewhere out there, there's a 4th grade student that's behaving like a 32 year old man, and some kid in 2nd grade that's as mature as a 26 year old.
:yes:


----------



## Half-aMAziNg

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Where did I ever say to love Kobe? I never said that once. If you don't like Kobe that's fine. You don't have to like him. You are the one who is basically making it seem as if Kobe is the only one to blame in the Lakers mess.
> 
> However, to assert full blame upon him is wrong and misguided. Obviously all parties share blame.
> 
> So whatever right back at you buddy. Basically what you want to do is run the man down at any chance you can. Are you sure you're not a former banned person of this message board?


I guess I'm missing something here, so we should put some of the blame on Phil and Shaq just because Kobe asked for a better plane coming back from Colorado?? What do Shaq and Phil have to do with that and why should they be blamed? Should they also be blamed for Kobe being a complete jerk and ratting out Shaq to the police?

You make no sense...buddy


----------



## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>Chi§e³</b>!
> 
> 
> I guess I'm missing something here, so we should put some of the blame on Phil and Shaq just because Kobe asked for a better plane coming back from Colorado?? What do Shaq and Phil have to do with that and why should they be blamed? Should they also be blamed for Kobe being a complete jerk and ratting out Shaq to the police?
> 
> You make no sense...buddy


you are missing something if you think the la soap opera started and ended with those 2 things.


----------



## Drewbs

> Originally posted by <b>sweet_constipation</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Somewhere out there, there's a 4th grade student that's behaving like a 32 year old man, and some kid in 2nd grade that's as mature as a 26 year old.
> :yes:


in a nutshell.


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## Half-aMAziNg

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> you are missing something if you think the la soap opera started and ended with those 2 things.


Well then obviously we arent talking about the same thing

I am talking about how I hate Kobe Bryant for his off-court antics and arrogant attitude

Jesus christ, why are there so many fans of this guy to begin with? Talk about a never ending bandwagon


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## Jonathan Watters

Personally, PJ has a lot more credibility than Kobe Bryant at this point. He's one of the top two coaches in NBA history, and has proven time and time again that he can win. Kobe wouldn't buy in, even though PJ clearly has the know-how to win games. But then again, maybe PJ is just a petty, backstabbing, whiny, 9-time champ.


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## bballlife

> Originally posted by <b>Chi§e³</b>!
> 
> 
> Well then obviously we arent talking about the same thing
> 
> I am talking about how I hate Kobe Bryant for his off-court antics and arrogant attitude
> 
> Jesus christ, why are there so many fans of this guy to begin with? Talk about a never ending bandwagon


Because of the passion he has for the game, the way he plays, lots of reasons.

Its a shame you don't like him because of what he has done off the court.


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## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> Personally, PJ has a lot more credibility than Kobe Bryant at this point. He's one of the top two coaches in NBA history, and has proven time and time again that he can win. Kobe wouldn't buy in, even though PJ clearly has the know-how to win games. But then again, maybe PJ is just a petty, backstabbing, whiny, 9-time champ.


Not at all. He's more like a petty, backstabbing, and whiny Jordan-Pippen-Shaq-Kobe coattailer who used Tex Winter's offensive schemes to win 9 rings.


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## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>Chi§e³</b>!
> 
> 
> Well then obviously we arent talking about the same thing
> 
> I am talking about how I hate Kobe Bryant for his off-court antics and arrogant attitude
> 
> Jesus christ, why are there so many fans of this guy to begin with? Talk about a never ending bandwagon


people have a right to like or dislike any player they wish. i have no problem with that.

if we're talking about reasons to dislike kobe, yeah, take whatever you want and run with it.

if we're talking about the issues behind the implosion of the lakers, don't expect everyone to pin it on the same 1 guy.

there are many reasons to like kobe, many to dislike him, and many to appreciate his talents. he's obviously one of the top players in the league. what i don't understand is why it's either a bandwagon or not. why if you're not slamming him you're on a bandwagon? if we're talking about other top players, the word bandwagon usually doesn't come up. with kobe, it's always homers and haters. 

the nba is filled with flawed individuals who are brilliant basketball players. many of the ones we think we know, we have no idea. some go about their business in different ways. they all have a public persona that is only part of who they really are. some talk more than others to the media. some give us more to go by. these guys have real relationships, real problems, real feuds, real feelings, real vices. they also have work ethics, skillsets, on-court personas. the thing we know the most about these guys is what they can do on the floor, and how much they give out there. pick whatever you want as the basis for how much you like / dislike a player. i'd just be hesitant to put too much in what we read 2nd hand about these guys.


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## Jonathan Watters

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> Not at all. He's more like a petty, backstabbing, and whiny Jordan-Pippen-Shaq-Kobe coattailer who used Tex Winter's offensive schemes to win 9 rings.


There's no way you would have said this back in March.


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> Personally, PJ has a lot more credibility than Kobe Bryant at this point. He's one of the top two coaches in NBA history, and has proven time and time again that he can win. Kobe wouldn't buy in, even though PJ clearly has the know-how to win games. But then again, maybe PJ is just a petty, backstabbing, whiny, 9-time champ.


It's not true that Kobe wouldn't 'buy in to' PJ's know how. He followed that man into three titles. Tex Winters has defended Kobe Bryants in doing what he supposed to on the court. He's held his responsibilities very well, just not flawless which really is no different than Shaq not hustling, playing defense, or rebounding.


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## tatahbenitez

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> Because of the passion he has for the game, the way he plays, lots of reasons.
> 
> Its a shame you don't like him because of what he has done off the court.


It is because of what Kobe has done off court and sometimes on the court which has soured my opinion of him. I am a Laker fan, and because of that, I gave Kobe the benefit of the doubt when he started playing in the league. I remember him as a selfish teenage primadona who thought he was the greatest player to step on the court. I said to myself, he is young and will learn that being the best does not mean scoring 35 points a night. I have waited 8 years for Kobe to mature.


Now he is a 26 year old adult primadona who thinks he is the greatest player to step on the court. He may be one of the top 5 players now and possibly make a run at MJ, but he has done so much more to negate his advances as a basketball player.
Kobe is a person who said he never went out to clubs, after games, to fool around because he was married. :angel: Talked about other players alleged indescretion, when he was confronted with his own. :sour: To prove a point that his teammates were wrong that he "took ill advised shots"; Did not take a shot in one half of a the important game against Sacramento last season.  Let The Lakers hang in the wind when his contract expired. (I think Kobe was trying to see what direction The Lakers were heading...Kobes direction or the wrong direction) :upset:


At least he's not 18 anymore. 


I will always be a Laker fan, but this coming year, I will have a tough time cheering whenever Kobe makes a basket.


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## bballlife

> Originally posted by <b>tatahbenitez</b>!
> 
> 
> It is because of what Kobe has done off court and sometimes on the court which has soured my opinion of him. I am a Laker fan, and because of that, I gave Kobe the benefit of the doubt when he started playing in the league. I remember him as a selfish teenage primadona who thought he was the greatest player to step on the court. I said to myself, he is young and will learn that being the best does not mean scoring 35 points a night. I have waited 8 years for Kobe to mature.
> 
> 
> Now he is a 26 year old adult primadona who thinks he is the greatest player to step on the court. He may be one of the top 5 players now and possibly make a run at MJ, but he has done so much more to negate his advances as a basketball player.
> Kobe is a person who said he never went out to clubs, after games, to fool around because he was married. :angel: Talked about other players alleged indescretion, when he was confronted with his own. :sour: To prove a point that his teammates were wrong that he "took ill advised shots"; Did not take a shot in one half of a the important game against Sacramento last season.  Let The Lakers hang in the wind when his contract expired. (I think Kobe was trying to see what direction The Lakers were heading...Kobes direction or the wrong direction) :upset:
> 
> 
> At least he's not 18 anymore.
> 
> 
> I will always be a Laker fan, but this coming year, I will have a tough time cheering whenever Kobe makes a basket.



You need to take a look at the facts, because judging by your last post, you are assuming quite a bit about Kobe. Besides that a lot of that stuff you mentioned is hearsay or rumor. I myself like to form my opinions around facts not hearsay. 

You remember a cocky, "selfish" 18 year old. I remember a young energetic Laker full of passion, ready to play, but not treated the same by his coaches and teammates for several reasons, the main one being his age.


Judge him all you want, make false assumptions, but that can not take away from his abilities on the court, and the reality that he plays the game the way it should be played.


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## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> There's no way you would have said this back in March.


I've been saying it since 2000. I'd link you, but then you'd just say that Sam Cassell is a slasher.


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## Hibachi!

All three of them are a bunch of *****es... END


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## Clutch

*ty*



> Originally posted by <b>KL Dawger</b>!
> Kobe is a spoiled peice of trash.


I agree 100%

Thanks for saying what most of us are thinking.


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## John

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> I've been saying it since 2000. I'd link you, but then you'd just say that Sam Cassell is a slasher.


lol, yeah EHL hates Shaq. I can tell, but I hate Kobe, can you tell?

F!


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## Da Grinch

shaq was petty and childish , kobe was petty and childish and phil was childish and petty as well.

the difference is we are talking about a story written by phil about the other 2 so its obvious who comes out better out of the 3 and in which order.

that being said if you look at their actions away from each other as a determiner of the people they are, kobe comes out dead last , and its not even because he may or may not have raped the young lady form colorado.

he dropped a dime on shaq with the police , unsolicited and it probably wasn't even true because its well known they dont hang out or socialize so anything kobe knows about shaq and the ladies is pure heresay if it isn't just something out of his imagination. to do that is the absolute worst thing outside of violent crime i have ever heard of by a sports figure.

shaq's biggest crime away from this disfuncional trio is he cant keep his trap shut. It seems if a reporter ask him about the weather he will somehow take a shot at the lakers , kobe ,buss and kupchek.

phil jax he too is no angel he torpedoed the bulls because of his need for power and when he couldn't have it he decided it was good just to piss off his boss, and make him out to be the devil basically , he is guilty of the same tactics he used in L.A. he alligned himself with his big star (in chi. it was jordan) against his adversary and did his best to rid himself of him and if failing at that make sure the power structure favored him .

in chi. he got his asst. coach fired by leading krause to believe it was johnny bach who gave most of the info for the book in The Jordan Rules when it was really himself.

he also alligned himself with jenny buss and got jerry west out of L.A. , he may have had other reasons for being with her but this was obviously his doing as their relationship was in the toilet and his relationship with jenny buss made sure he would win any power struggle , a battle he couldn't win in chicago.

arguing over who hates who more is the stuff childhoods are made of and they should all be ashamed of themselves , but when reading a message its always important to know who wrote what you are reading.

phil jackson wrote this with an obvious agenda you have to weigh that in any discussion about this.


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## Jonathan Watters

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> I've been saying it since 2000. I'd link you, but then you'd just say that Sam Cassell is a slasher.


Go ahead and link...

And watch a Wolves game while you're at it.


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## tatahbenitez

> Originally posted by <b>bballlife</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> You need to take a look at the facts, because judging by your last post, you are assuming quite a bit about Kobe. Besides that a lot of that stuff you mentioned is hearsay or rumor. I myself like to form my opinions around facts not hearsay.



Then can you please tell me how Kobe can be "held down" to no shots in a half against their rivals, The Sacramento Kings, during a game where they were only one game apart for the division lead? Please don't tell me that The Kings defense was "on" that afternoon, just like what Kobe said. Then that means Sacramento must have a better defense than Detroit, because no matter how well Detroit played against Kobe, they never shut him down in a half. And don't tell me I'm a Kobe hater. I was concerned about Kobe when he got the shoulder injury a few months before. I knew that without Kobe The Lakers had a slim chance to go to the finals. But this type of behavior (pouting during a game) was the last straw for me. I know Shaq is lazy, and comes to games not in the best of shape, but I haven't seen him toss a game to prove a point. 

I have trying to give Kobe the benefit of the doubt, but can you please tell me why let The Lakers and the Laker fans hang during off season before saying he was a Laker for life? If he loved The Lakers so much, then he wouldn't have put himself up for free agency. As a Laker fan, this also left a bad taste in my mouth. Can you please tell me what were the "facts" about this?

I'm not going to talk about the rape allegations because it never went to trial and the alleged victim did not go through with it, but what Kobe said about Shaq and payoffs to other women was uncalled for. 



> You remember a cocky, "selfish" 18 year old. I remember a young energetic Laker full of passion, ready to play, but not treated the same by his coaches and teammates for several reasons, the main one being his age.


I also remember the coaches treating Kobe "differently" during a game (I think it was playoff game) against Utah, when Kobe was in his second year. Del Harris let Kobe keep shooting the ball in the closing minute when there was only a 1 or 2 point difference, instead of Nick Van Exel, who was making his shots or Shaq. It's a wonder that Kobe didn't have emotional scars after being treated so differently.



> Judge him all you want, make false assumptions, but that can not take away from his abilities on the court, and the reality that he plays the game the way it should be played.[


I haven't taken away from his abilities. I've said Kobe is one of the top 5 players now. Along with Duncan, Garnett, McGrady, and Shaq. And he still could be better, maybe even in terms of MJ before his career is over. But that doesn't change the fact that I have grown to dislike him.


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>tatahbenitez</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Then can you please tell me how Kobe can be "held down" to no shots in a half against their rivals, The Sacramento Kings, during a game where they were only one game apart for the division lead? Please don't tell me that The Kings defense was "on" that afternoon, just like what Kobe said. Then that means Sacramento must have a better defense than Detroit, because no matter how well Detroit played against Kobe, they never shut him down in a half. And don't tell me I'm a Kobe hater. I was concerned about Kobe when he got the shoulder injury a few months before. I knew that without Kobe The Lakers had a slim chance to go to the finals. But this type of behavior (pouting during a game) was the last straw for me.


It's one of those things where the defense actually is trapping and forcing Kobe to be a playmaker, before he can become a scorer. The same thing happened a week or so later against Houston and no one seemed to care. IMO, it's just like Larry Brown's defensive attempt to slow Kobe before Shaq. Defensively they can hound a perimeter player to force him either into bad shots(i.e. the finals), or to distribute the ball to his teammates. Against Sac and Houston Kobe got the ball to his teammates. IMO, that is what he should do, just as Phil Jackson adn Tex Winters explained, that was his role! 



> I have trying to give Kobe the benefit of the doubt, but can you please tell me why let The Lakers and the Laker fans hang during off season before saying he was a Laker for life? If he loved The Lakers so much, then he wouldn't have put himself up for free agency. As a Laker fan, this also left a bad taste in my mouth. Can you please tell me what were the "facts" about this?


Only Kobe could tell you the facts, but you should have been able to see the turmoil that was developing in LA. Also know that this is not just a game, it's a business... it should be understand that Kobe is going to have terms and expectations of the franchise(whether he loves it or not) just as the fans and franchise have expectations of him. It would have been a terribly poor business move for any player up for free agency to not explore all options before signing with any team.



> I'm not going to talk about the rape allegations because it never went to trial and the alleged victim did not go through with it, but what Kobe said about Shaq and payoffs to other women was uncalled for.


If Kobe said those things about Shaq, you're right it was uncalled for, but none of us know any of that to be true. 

If someone tells you something over and over again, you will eventually begin to believe it whether you know it to be true or not. 



> I also remember the coaches treating Kobe "differently" during a game (I think it was playoff game) against Utah, when Kobe was in his second year. Del Harris let Kobe keep shooting the ball in the closing minute when there was only a 1 or 2 point difference, instead of Nick Van Exel, who was making his shots or Shaq. It's a wonder that Kobe didn't have emotional scars after being treated so differently.


:whoknows:



> I haven't taken away from his abilities. I've said Kobe is one of the top 5 players now. Along with Duncan, Garnett, McGrady, and Shaq. And he still could be better, maybe even in terms of MJ before his career is over. But that doesn't change the fact that I have grown to dislike him.


I can respect that!


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## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> 
> 
> Go ahead and link...


No problem: http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=1218727#post1218727.

Just one of many examples off the top of my head.



> And watch a Wolves game while you're at it.


http://www.82games.com/03MIN5A.HTM

Oh but wait, a big chunk of that 89% were layups....yeah, that's right!


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## RP McMurphy

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> No problem: http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=1218727#post1218727.


That was a fun thread. On another note, how long has it been since Ron posted something wortwhile?


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## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>RP McMurphy</b>!
> 
> 
> That was a fun thread. On another note, how long has it been since Ron posted something wortwhile?


ron is to bbb.net as phil was to lakers


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