# Wade and Lebron vs. Jordan and Pippen



## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

And... GO!

Who would win and why?

I pick Jordan and Pippen because of defense.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Jordan and Pippen...


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Lebron and Wade are more explosive, but their strong points and weak points are to similar and I think that they would overlap and thus become less effective.

Gotta go with Jordan/Pippen.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Jordan/Pippen.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

If we're taking everyone in their prime, there's nobody "more explosive" than MJ and Scottie.... maybe _as_ explosive.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

MJ and Pippen.


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

Wade and Lebron


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

SamTheMan67 said:


> Wade and Lebron


Care to elaberate on that one?


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

VanillaPrice said:


> Care to elaberate on that one?


Favorite team: Cavs

Favorite Player: Lebron.

This really isn't all that close. Jordon and Pippen by quite a good margin.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

So is there any SG-SF duo that would beat them?

Kobe/Bird?


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

The Krakken said:


> Favorite team: Cavs
> 
> Favorite Player: Lebron.
> 
> This really isn't all that close. Jordon and Pippen by quite a good margin.


I do think Kobe and Lebron would be a much better fit because of Kobe's shooting.. They would win easily IMO


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

myst said:


> So is there any SG-SF duo that would beat them?
> 
> Kobe/Bird?


Thats the only one that might have a chance, and it would require Kobe going into one of his "So incredibly hot you could put your entire team on me and i'd still score on you" modes and Bird would have to get inside Pippen's head.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

SamTheMan67 said:


> I do think Kobe and Lebron would be a much better fit because of Kobe's shooting.. They would win easily IMO


I know others have already asked why, but I'm curious too.


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

Ras said:


> I know others have already asked why, but I'm curious too.


I feel as if players have gotten bigger stronger faster more athletic and play tougher defense without the help of handchecking.. To say I know definately that one would win over another is kinda blasphemous, but Lebron and Kobe are as unstoppable a duo as ever seen.. Lebron can drive and dish or finish and guard anyone on this planet, and Kobe can score from 35 feet in effortlessly.. I dare to say Kobe is more skilled then MJ, but lets not start that..


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

SamTheMan67 said:


> I feel as if players have gotten bigger stronger faster more athletic and play tougher defense without the help of handchecking.. To say I know definately that one would win over another is kinda blasphemous, but Lebron and Kobe are as unstoppable a duo as ever seen.. Lebron can drive and dish or finish and guard anyone on this planet, and Kobe can score from 35 feet in effortlessly.. I dare to say Kobe is more skilled then MJ, but lets not start that..


You do realze that defense is half of the game right?


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

VanillaPrice said:


> You do realze that defense is half of the game right?


And you're saying that Kobe and Lebron are not elite defenders? do you watch basketball?


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

SamTheMan67 said:


> And you're saying that Kobe and Lebron are not elite defenders? do you watch basketball?


It wouldn't matter. Neither of them would be able to stay in front of Jordan in his prime. He would get to the rim at will.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

SamTheMan67 said:


> And you're saying that Kobe and Lebron are not elite defenders? do you watch basketball?


As much as I love Kobe, he just isn't on Jordan's level defensivly, (Or really, offensivly for that matter) and although Lebron has made tremendous strides in his defense, he's still not remotly close to Pippen.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

I refuse to answer this thread question because there's no poll.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

Jordan, by himself, is arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time, and Pippen is like right behind him.

Add that to the fact that a prime Jordan is UNSTOPPABLE.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

SamTheMan67 said:


> And you're saying that Kobe and Lebron are not elite defenders? do you watch basketball?


They are elite TEAM defenders, but I don't think they are elite man on man defenders.




IceMan23and3 said:


> I refuse to answer this thread question because there's no poll.


I don't think it requires a poll, I am not making a scientific calculation, this is a discussion.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Michael Jordan and Pippen since they won multiple championships together, although Wade and Lebron did serve in the Olympics however that can't compete to the hundreds of games worth of experience their Bulls counterparts have.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Let's wait til 2010 when Bron comes to Miami and we'll speak again


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Jordan and Pippen > Wade and LeBron

*MJ in his prime* was the most explosive scorer with the most deadly first step I've ever seen play the game. Plus MJ was a terror on defense, MJ was the most dominate on both the offense and defensive end of the floor, what LeBron and Wade are doing this season, and What Kobe has done in the past, pales in comparison to the defensive impact MJ had while dominating the league in offense, and dropping 8 dimes, and getting 8 boards a game. MJ is still the gold standard for being a beast on the perimeter. Jordan in his prime was shattering back boards ala Shaq, dropping 37 PPG seasons and routinely putting up huge offensive numbers while shooting over 50 percent from the field, and than locking up the elite guards in the NBA on the defensive end from man to man to help D, whatever it took, MJ set the bar through the roof when it came to drive and work ethic in the NBA.

*Pippen was Mr. intangible*, and every bit as explosive as the premier high flyers of today. Pippen would drool over the opportunity to hound LeBrons dribble for an entire game full court. In Pippens prime he was one of the best perimeter defenders of all time, always hit timely clutch buckets, could create his own shot, and was a force on the break on offense, and defense. Plus the chemistry Pippen and MJ had is like no other man, these dudes ran up six championship's and could of darn well had 8 if MJ never retired, and the Bulls kept their core players intact. This would be a fun match, and for all the size, and explosive difference in different eras, there is always a handful of guys you can take from any era, that's games would translate just fine to the modern day era going all the way back to the 60s.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

Well if Pippen was Mr. Intangible, then this question should be Wade and Haslem vs. Jordan and Pippen. 

If you don't visit the Heat board, don't flame me, it's a Heat fans joke.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

I think it would be closer than you think. LeBron is a physical beast, and could take Pippen and MJ to the rack all day. Wade is arguably faster than both of them. None of the four are really great three point shooters. But I still think MJ and Pippen have this one, but by a very slim margin.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

ChrisRichards said:


> Jordan, by himself, is arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time, *and Pippen is like right behind him.*


Let's not get crazy...


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## hendrix2430 (Mar 21, 2005)

Pippen was better than MJ defensively, IMO...


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> It wouldn't matter. Neither of them would be able to stay in front of Jordan in his prime. He would get to the rim at will.


and still get his shot swatted by wade/lebron coming up from behind him.

oh and your favorite team is the bulls. my guess is that your favorite player is jordan. so that explains away your answer as irrelevant, right?


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

i think this would be very close. are we actually just talking about a game of two on two or just which duo in general would be better?

i think wade/lebron would win a game of 2 on 2. i feel like in that setting of just a one game or series of 2 on 2 games rather than a full season of 48 minute games wade/lebron could equal or even surpass what jordan/pippen do defensively.

as for who the better duo would be to have on your team for a season(or several seasons), i'd go with jordan/pippen at this point. they obviously complimented each other very well and it would take a while for lebron/wade to get to that level of being able to play with each other. at this point i'd very clearly rank the players as jordan, lebron, wade, and the pippen but i think the chemistry of jordan/pippen would put them over the top(and that they are more consistent with their great defense).


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

Pippen was very nearly as good as Wade. Remember, Pippen is probably the greatest perimeter defender of all time, while Wade's defense, even with the spectacular blocks, is about average. Pippen, in the years without Jordan, showed that he could carry the offense of a very good team. He was also an excellent rebounder and passer. While pretty clearly an inferior offensive player to Wade, his defense puts him on the same level.


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## hendrix2430 (Mar 21, 2005)

Hakeem said:


> Pippen was very nearly as good as Wade. Remember, Pippen is probably the greatest perimeter defender of all time, while Wade's defense, even with the spectacular blocks, is about average. Pippen, in the years without Jordan, showed that he could carry the offense of a very good team. He was also an excellent rebounder and passer. While pretty clearly an inferior offensive player to Wade, *his defense puts him on the same level*.


When you put it this way, it makes sense, but it's hard to admit though...perhaps because Pippen was always overshadowed by Jordan. Nobody realized just how good he was. 

It's safe to say that Pippen was a better help defender, and a much (to the Nth time) better man defender.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

hendrix2430 said:


> Pippen was better than MJ defensively, IMO...


Pippen = 8 all-defensive first teams

Jordan = 9 all-defensive first teams, 1988 Defensive Player of the Year

As I said, Jordan is arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time, but Pippen is like right there behind him. They were a deadly duo. Then add to the mix Jordan being the greatest player of all time, the greatest or 2nd greatest scorer of all time (you could argue Wilt Chamberlain is 1st)....

I love Wade obviously. He plays for my team. I love LeBron and Wade, but they play roam defense. Play the passing lanes, play help defense to get steals or blocks, etc... they aren't elite man-to-man defenders.

so you have :

the greatest player of all time : Jordan

two of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time : jordan/pippen

the greatest or 2nd greatest scorer of all time : Jordan


yeah. Jordan Pippen would rule.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)




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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

pippen was a bit overrated as an on-ball defender, and jordan had the most trouble defensively against shorter quicker players. this will be close because noone is really stopping wade, lebron or jordan. jordan the most unstoppable of the bunch, but pippen easily the most stoppable.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

kflo said:


> pippen was a bit overrated as an on-ball defender, and jordan had the most trouble defensively against shorter quicker players. this will be close because noone is really stopping wade, lebron or jordan. jordan the most unstoppable of the bunch, but pippen easily the most stoppable.


Agree with this: Jordan isn't going to be stopped but on the other hand I couls easily see Lebron shutting down Pippen. Both Wade and Lebron would be slowed somewhat bythe Bulls tandem but not to the same extent that Pippen would be IMO


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

I dont have a lot of faith in lebron's or wade's jumper...


MJ/PIP


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

ChrisRichards said:


> Pippen = 8 all-defensive first teams
> 
> Jordan = 9 all-defensive first teams, 1988 Defensive Player of the Year


honestly, all defensive teams really don't mean a lot to me. they are based on reputation, not reality.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Hakeem said:


> Pippen was very nearly as good as Wade. Remember, Pippen is probably the greatest perimeter defender of all time, while Wade's defense, even with the spectacular blocks, is about average. Pippen, in the years without Jordan, showed that he could carry the offense of a very good team. He was also an excellent rebounder and passer. While pretty clearly an inferior offensive player to Wade, his defense puts him on the same level.


i still think wade is definitely the better of the two players. and in the setting of a two on two game where wade is really going to have to be focused defensively(assuming they were taking such a game seriously), i think wade's defense would be well above average.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

Jordan and Pip win but its closer than most make it out to be. who has the better chance of scoring more points? 

defensively, if Jordan is on Wade then he is locked up. no drives, no jumpshots, no nothing. that leave LeBron on Pippen, which I think is a landslide in LeBron's favor on both ends since Pip would not be able to guard him due to strength/force mismatch nor would he be able to get his shots off against a more athletic LeBron. 

now, change the matchup. Jordan on LeBron. *if* LeBron goes to the box, he stands a better chance of scoring on Jordan but I say he has trouble even dribbling straight up against MJ's focused defense. meanwhile Jordan abuses with impunity whoever has the Herculean task of trying to guard him. Pippen on Wade...I honestly think Pippen has a better chance here, since Wade's defense isn't all that great while Pippen had great length and quickness to stay with Wade's change of direction moves on the offensive end.

game, set, match: MJ & Pip.
final score (to 21): *21 to 16*.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

JT said:


> Jordan and Pip win but its closer than most make it out to be. who has the better chance of scoring more points?
> 
> defensively, if Jordan is on Wade then he is locked up. no drives, no jumpshots, no nothing. that leave LeBron on Pippen, which I think is a landslide in LeBron's favor on both ends since Pip would not be able to guard him due to strength/force mismatch nor would he be able to get his shots off against a more athletic LeBron.
> 
> ...


jordan was a great defender, but he's not locking up wade.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

if he locked up Isiah Thomas, he can lock up Wade.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

JT said:


> if he locked up Isiah Thomas, he can lock up Wade.


So Isiah was better then Wade?


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

LeBron and Wade just because Pippen is a clear weak link offensively of that bunch. No shot he outscores or outplays Wade or LeBron.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Stop underrating Pippen, and saying he couldn't guard LeBron effectively. Did you not see how well Ron Artest guards LeBron or for that matter Bruce Bowen ? Who LeBron said is the hardest guy for him to go against. Pippen has guarded everyone from Charles Barkley , Magic Johnson, Anthony Mason, to PG's like Mark Jackson. I think you guy's are selling one of the top 50 players of all time a bit a short. Not to mention Pippen being 230 and 6'8" isn't going to be just rolled over by anyone. And I believe someone said he didn't have the athletic ability ? That makes me think you never saw him play, or didn't realize he can dunk from the free throw line, or haven't seen his numerous dunks putting guy's on posters ?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

23AJ said:


> Stop underrating Pippen, and saying he couldn't guard LeBron effectively. Did you not see how well Ron Artest guards LeBron or for that matter Bruce Bowen ? Who LeBron said is the hardest guy for him to go against. Pippen has guarded everyone from Charles Barkley , Magic Johnson, to PG's like Marc Jackson. I think you guy's are selling one of the top 50 players of all time a bit a short.


You do realize that it was a team effort to defend LeBron, and if you think Artest or Bowen (Especially Bowen) is that good then you're crazy.

And come on, at the VERY least Wade and LeBron will end up being top 25-30, which is about Pippen's level.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

It's clear to me that some posters here are too young or have short-term memory.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

VanillaPrice said:


> You do realize that it was a team effort to defend LeBron, and if you think Artest or Bowen (Especially Bowen) is that good then you're crazy.
> 
> And come on, at the VERY least Wade and LeBron will end up being top 25-30, which is about Pippen's level.


What the hell are you talking about, everyone saw Ron Artest frustrate LeBron defensively many times. Give the man his due. He's a former DPOTY, and is capable of taking James out of his games. As he's done it with Indiana, and with Houston. Stop saying it's team defense, you can make that statement about any single player in the game, the fact is most dudes get abused by LBJ, not the case with Ron Ron. And Wouldn't be the case with Pippen.

As for the Bowen comment, THATS LEBRON JAMES WORDS not mine. LBJ made no mention of Duncan, he simply said Bowen is the best defensive player against him. Do you need a link to read it for yourself ?


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

VanillaPrice said:


> You do realize that it was a team effort to defend LeBron, and if you think Artest or Bowen (Especially Bowen) is that good then you're crazy.
> 
> And come on, at the VERY least Wade and LeBron will end up being top 25-30, which is about Pippen's level.


Also next time please quote my entire post. I hate it when people cherry pick, instead of taking the entire post , and responding to it as an entire statement, not just little bits of fragments. 

thx
23AJ


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

kflo said:


> jordan was a great defender, but he's not locking up wade.


How do you know that ? And I do believe doubters much like yourself are one of the main motivators that drove Jordan to be so great. And one of the reasons why Jordan became such an Iconic athlete. He didn't come into the league with the red carpet laid out for him, like other stars, he wasn't suppose to be he GOAT and etc His Bull's were not suppose to make the playoffs his rookie year. All of his double digit 4th quarter come backs were not suppose to happen. He wasn't suppose to be a great defensive player, he wasn't suppose to be able to be an efficient beast in the NBA. Hmm sounds familiar ? Doubting MJ seems a little counter productive and a trend I thought many NBA fans realized he shattered, when he shattered their hearts and souls winning chips, and being better than your favorite player will ever be.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

23AJ said:


> Also next time please quote my entire post. I hate it when people cherry pick, instead of taking the entire post , and responding to it as an entire statement, not just little bits of fragments.
> 
> thx
> 23AJ


You do realize that he probably quoted you before you went back and edited your post to make it longer and add the YouTube video...


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## Chan Ho Nam (Jan 9, 2007)

as good as Pippen is i dont see him able to guard Lebron without some help, Lebron would just start from half court, start running full speed knowing the only help would be Jordan, if Jordan comes to help, he'll pass up to Kobe on the ft line


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Basel said:


> You do realize that he probably quoted you before you went back and edited your post to make it longer and add the YouTube video...


Lakers fan's definitely do stick up for another. Next time maybe let the poster speak up for themselves. And I have no idea at what point he quoted me. And it's moot anyways, because many posters cherry pick statements, which is really frustrating.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

chairman5 said:


> as good as Pippen is i dont see him able to guard Lebron without some help, Lebron would just start from half court, start running full speed knowing the only help would be Jordan, if Jordan comes to help, he'll pass up to Kobe on the ft line


That's a fair statement, but couldn't the same logic apply the other way around, if MJ comes running down from half court, and just pass the ball to Pippen when he's doubled ? The point was people were saying Pippen didn't have the athletic ability and defensive skills to guard LeBron. Which if you ever followed Pippens career is a pretty asinine thing to say as his career by and large is centered around defense, and the guy was one of the best at it ever.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

myst said:


> So Isiah was better then Wade?


what do you think? you're the Heat fan here.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Lakers fan's definitely do stick up for another. Next time maybe let the poster speak up for themselves. And I have no idea at what point he quoted me. And it's moot anyways, because many posters cherry pick statements, which is really frustrating.


when addressing specific statements, why include the whole post?

and you can see the time of the post and the edit. both are include as part of the post.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

JT said:


> what do you think? you're the Heat fan here.


Are we talking Peaks? If so it's hard to go against Zeke, a 20/10 guy highly efficent and was good for 2 steals a game. Plus a proven champion, and very clutch player who played through pain.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

23AJ said:


> That's a fair statement, but couldn't the same logic apply the other way around, if MJ comes running down from half court, and just pass the ball to Pippen when he's doubled ? The point was people were saying Pippen didn't have the athletic ability and defensive skills to guard LeBron. Which if you ever followed Pippens career is a pretty asinine thing to say as his career by and large is centered around defense, and the guy was one of the best at it ever.


no one is saying that pippen doesn't have athletic ability. they are saying he doesn't have the athletic ability of lebron and wade.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

23AJ said:


> Lakers fan's definitely do stick up for another. Next time maybe let the poster speak up for themselves. And I have no idea at what point he quoted me. And it's moot anyways, because many posters cherry pick statements, which is really frustrating.


:laugh:

I'm not standing up for anybody; it could've been any poster and I would've pointed it out.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Are we talking Peaks? If so it's hard to go against Zeke, a 20/10 guy highly efficent and was good for 2 steals a game. Plus a proven champion, and very clutch player who played through pain.


wade is a "proven champion" as well and has already had multiple seasons in which he put up betters stats than isiah's best season.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> when addressing specific statements, why include the whole post?
> 
> and you can see the time of the post and the edit. both are include as part of the post.


Because the entire post is tied together. Now if you start by saying I AGREE with this part of your post, but have a difference opinion in this regard. That would demonstrate to me a tactful and tasteful way to debate certain points. However I don't get a lot of that from posters on here, seems like to me by and large it's about IM RIGHT YOUR WRONG attitude's going on. Hence why a lot of people don't like to debate with me, because they don't want a fair and balanced approach to the debate at hand. So cherry picking has left a taste of dookie in my mouth on this board. 

Also dude just the heads up, I don't go around checking edit and posting times. Besides it's moot to me, unless as I posted up above you are willing to tell me you agree with the part's of my statements your leaving out. If not quote it all, as the entire post in a statement, and coherent thought that' ties into one another.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I find it hard to believe a guy like Pippen, who's one of the most complete and successful defenders ever, would get terribly overmatched by a guy who isn't even the best offensive player of all time. I think a prime Pippen is the perfect matchup for Lebron. If not him, I can't think of anyone else.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> wade is a "proven champion" as well and has already had multiple seasons in which he put up betters stats than isiah's best season.


My point is that it's close. Also they play two different position's and were asked to do two different things. So of course their stats are going to be different.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> no one is saying that pippen doesn't have athletic ability. they are saying he doesn't have the athletic ability of lebron and wade.


Pippen doesn't have the athletic ability of LeBron or Wade ? I find that very hard to believe.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

23AJ said:


> My point is that it's close. Also they play two different position's and were asked to do two different things. So of course their stats are going to be different.


that's weird. it seems like your point was that it would be hard to pick wade over isiah.



23AJ said:


> Also dude just the heads up, I don't go around checking edit and posting times. Besides it's moot to me, unless as I posted up above you are willing to tell me you agree with the part's of my statements your leaving out. If not quote it all, as the entire post in a statement, and coherent thought that' ties into one another.


if you edit your post and don't bother to check what time someone quoted you, then you shouldn't complain that they didn't quote your whole post.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> that's weird. it seems like your point was that it would be hard to pick wade over isiah.
> 
> 
> if you edit your post and don't bother to check what time someone quoted you, then you shouldn't complain that they didn't quote your whole post.


If it's close wouldn't it be a difficult pick ? 

I'll do all the complaining I want, as everyone else does here as well. So please don't try and tell me what to do, you can treat your mother, wife, and children ,and dog how you want. But don't think I'll allow you to bust my backside on here as some kind of yes man. No thanks, I don't put up with that kind of trash talking.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*talk about cherry-picking eh?*



23AJ said:


> Because the entire post is tied together.


makes sense.


> Now if you start by saying I AGREE with this part of your post, but have a difference opinion in this regard. That would demonstrate to me a tactful and tasteful way to debate certain points.


seems reasonable.


> However I don't get a lot of that from posters on here, seems like to me by and large it's about IM RIGHT YOUR WRONG attitude's going on.


and that's a shame.


> Hence why a lot of people don't like to debate with me, because they don't want a fair and balanced approach to the debate at hand.


23AJ=Fox News of BBF?


> So cherry picking has left a taste of dookie in my mouth on this board.


how disgusting.



> Also dude just the heads up, I don't go around checking edit and posting times.


 fascinating.


> Besides it's moot to me, unless as I posted up above you are willing to tell me you agree with the part's of my statements your leaving out.


that's how it goes.


> If not quote it all, as the entire post in a statement, and coherent thought that' ties into one another.


no thank you.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

23AJ said:


> I'll do all the complaining I want, as everyone else does here as well. So please don't try and tell me what to do, you can treat your mother, wife, and children ,and dog how you want. But don't think I'll allow you to bust my backside on here as some kind of yes man. No thanks, I don't put up with that kind of trash talking.


i was just letting you know that you have the ability to check. logic would dictate that you would probably want to check the times before you complain about it. if that's too much effort, it seems complaining would be too much effort as well.

but hey, that's just me. post as you wish.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*keep that backside protected holmes.*



23AJ said:


> If it's close wouldn't it be a difficult pick ?


who can say?



> I'll do all the complaining I want, as everyone else does here as well.


understood.


> So please don't try and tell me what to do, you can treat your mother, wife, and children ,and dog how you want.


you gotta fight for your rights bro.


> But don't think I'll allow you to bust my backside on here as some kind of yes man.


do you like getting your backside busted?



> No thanks, I don't put up with that kind of trash talking.


tell 'em how you feel!


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> i was just letting you know that you have the ability to check. logic would dictate that you would probably want to check the times before you complain about it. if that's too much effort, it seems complaining would be too much effort as well.
> 
> but hey, that's just me. post as you wish.


Right, and that's fit for you. To me zero effort goes into talking about a sport I love. Maybe that's the whole key for you, if I took this more serious, put a lot of effort into it, and became a more serious poster in the sense, I go back double check my posts and others, I wouldn't make certain comments. Well that may be true, but for me this is fun, and entertainment that seems pretty much effortless, it's one of the reasons why I like to post about sports. It's a great escape from the rigors of my day job, and aspects that can make this a difficult world to live in at times.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Right, and that's fit for you. To me zero effort goes into talking about a sport I love. Maybe that's the whole key for you, if I took this more serious, put a lot of effort into it, and became a more serious poster in the sense, I go back double check my posts and others, I wouldn't make certain comments. Well that may be true, but for me this is fun, and entertainment that seems pretty much effortless, it's one of the reasons why I like to post about sports. It's a great escape from the rigors of my day job, and aspects that can make this a difficult world to live in at times.


nevermind. not worth it.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

23AJ said:


> Right, and that's fit for you. To me zero effort goes into talking about a sport I love. Maybe that's the whole key for you, if I took this more serious, put a lot of effort into it, and became a more serious poster in the sense, I go back double check my posts and others, I wouldn't make certain comments. Well that may be true, but for me this is fun, and entertainment that seems pretty much effortless, it's one of the reasons why I like to post about sports. It's a great escape from the rigors of my day job, and aspects that can make this a difficult world to live in at times.


Right, but in those posts, you weren't talking about sports. You were talking about someone quoting only part of your post (when that's not what happened) and thus put in effort talking about something that never should've been brought up to begin with. But if that's fun and entertaining for you, then kudos to you.
eace:


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Basel said:


> Right, but in those posts, you weren't talking about sports. You were talking about someone quoting only part of your post (when that's not what happened) and thus put in effort talking about something that never should've been brought up to begin with. But if that's fun and entertaining for you, then kudos to you.
> eace:


Yep I get the point, and to each their own. And no reason to derail this thread anymore. I'll do my part by only posting anymore regarding the topic of the thread.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

JT said:


> if he locked up Isiah Thomas, he can lock up Wade.


when did he lock up isiah thomas, and was thomas as good a scorer as wade?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

23AJ said:


> That's a fair statement, but couldn't the same logic apply the other way around, if MJ comes running down from half court, and just pass the ball to Pippen when he's doubled ? The point was people were saying Pippen didn't have the athletic ability and defensive skills to guard LeBron. Which if you ever followed Pippens career is a pretty asinine thing to say as his career by and large is centered around defense, and the guy was one of the best at it ever.


and my point was simply that he's overrated by some as an on-ball, shut-down defender. he's the best help perimeter defender ever, but not as effective at shutting down individual scorers.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

23AJ said:


> Lakers fan's definitely do stick up for another. Next time maybe let the poster speak up for themselves. And I have no idea at what point he quoted me. And it's moot anyways, because many posters cherry pick statements, which is really frustrating.


Yes, you are so right; it wasn't just a simple observation that Basel decided to point out, it was that the Laker fan signal appeared in the sky and he had to swoop down and "cherry pick" your post.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

23AJ said:


> How do you know that ? And I do believe doubters much like yourself are one of the main motivators that drove Jordan to be so great. And one of the reasons why Jordan became such an Iconic athlete. He didn't come into the league with the red carpet laid out for him, like other stars, he wasn't suppose to be he GOAT and etc His Bull's were not suppose to make the playoffs his rookie year. All of his double digit 4th quarter come backs were not suppose to happen. He wasn't suppose to be a great defensive player, he wasn't suppose to be able to be an efficient beast in the NBA. Hmm sounds familiar ? Doubting MJ seems a little counter productive and a trend I thought many NBA fans realized he shattered, when he shattered their hearts and souls winning chips, and being better than your favorite player will ever be.


i love the revisionist history about jordan the poor malnourished soul who overcame all odds. he scored more points in the mcdonald's all-american game than anyone ever had. he was a starter on a championship team as a freshman, and then he was a 2 time player of the year on #1 teams. he was drafted 3rd and was instantly a sensation from day 1 in the league (from preseason actually). 

if there were any players who jordan struggled with, it was the quicker smaller guys. saying now that he could have if he was doubted doesn't mean he suddenly could. just because he was the best doesn't mean he could do anything. he didn't need to just think something and it happened.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

23AJ said:


> Are we talking Peaks? If so it's hard to go against Zeke, a 20/10 guy highly efficent and was good for 2 steals a game. Plus a proven champion, and very clutch player who played through pain.


Meet STD-Wade (Couldn't resist, sorry) he's only a 29/7.5 guy that was highly efficient and good for two steals a game. Plus he was a proven champion, and a very clutch player who played through pain.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

kflo said:


> i love the revisionist history about jordan the poor malnourished soul who overcame all odds. he scored more points in the mcdonald's all-american game than anyone ever had. he was a starter on a championship team as a freshman, and then he was a 2 time player of the year on #1 teams. he was drafted 3rd and was instantly a sensation from day 1 in the league (from preseason actually).
> 
> if there were any players who jordan struggled with, it was the quicker smaller guys. saying now that he could have if he was doubted doesn't mean he suddenly could. just because he was the best doesn't mean he could do anything. he didn't need to just think something and it happened.


Smaller quicker players like Zeke ? Oh yeah forgot about that one didn't you. Also no revisionist history going on, but a hate like yourself couldn't admit as much Believe I don't expect you to say anything other than how you are right, and I'm wrong. It's your human disposition, and believe me we all realize this on this board.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

23AJ said:


> Pippen doesn't have the athletic ability of LeBron or Wade ? I find that very hard to believe.


You do realize that Scottie was 6'8 and weighed 228 pounds right? LeBron weighs (At the VERY least 260) is faster and FAR stronger then Pippen. Lebron will take him to the rack every time, and Scottie isn't going to be able to do anything about, the real game is decided by Jordan/Wade, and although nobody is going "Shutting down" Wade, Jordan is going to do a better job then anyone from his or the current era on him.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

VanillaPrice said:


> Meet STD-Wade (Couldn't resist, sorry) he's only a 29/7.5 guy that was highly efficient and good for two steals a game. Plus he was a proven champion, and a very clutch player who played through pain.


And Wade also turns the ball over more, and Isn't as good of a 3 point shooter as Zeke was. You see it's not as black and white as you think. There is a lot more to their games, than just the basic stats, it's one of the reasons Zeke is considered a top 50 player ever. My initial point isn't a bad one, I don't think it's an easy choice, both are great players.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Smaller quicker players like Zeke ? Oh yeah forgot about that one didn't you. Also no revisionist history going on, but a hate like yourself couldn't admit as much Believe I don't expect you to say anything other than how you are right, and I'm wrong. It's your human disposition, and believe me we all realize this on this board.


tell me about zeke, please. 

yes, i'm a true hater. i think jordan's the best ever. such a hater. i don't think he's put wade on lock. a true hater i am.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

VanillaPrice said:


> You do realize that Scottie was 6'8 and weighed 228 pounds right? LeBron weighs (At the VERY least 260) is faster and FAR stronger then Pippen. Lebron will take him to the rack every time, and Scottie isn't going to be able to do anything about, the real game is decided by Jordan/Wade, and although nobody is going "Shutting down" Wade, Jordan is going to do a better job then anyone from his or the current era on him.


You act like size is a reason why LeBron couldn't be stopped. I can understand your point if he's barely six feet in shoes ala Allen Iverson, but Pippen is big enough to disrupt LeBron, much like Pippen was big enough to guard Charles Barkely and Anthony Mason who happeend to be 6' 8" and 265 pounds legit.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

23AJ said:


> And Wade also turns the ball over more, and Isn't as good of a 3 point shooter as Zeke was. You see it's not as black and white as you think. There is a lot more to their games, than just the basic stats, it's one of the reasons Zeke is considered a top 50 player ever. My initial point isn't a bad one, I don't think it's an easy choice, both are great players.


of course wade doesn't turn the ball over more(same turnovers per game though wade plays more minutes) and isiah really wasn't much of a better perimeter shooter(2.5% difference so far in their careers) than wade.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

23AJ said:


> And Wade also turns the ball over more, and Isn't as good of a 3 point shooter as Zeke was. You see it's not as black and white as you think. There is a lot more to their games, than just the basic stats, it's one of the reasons Zeke is considered a top 50 player ever. My initial point isn't a bad one, I don't think it's an easy choice, both are great players.


Not being as good of a three point shooter hasn't stopped him from scoring FAR more then Zeke ever did; it doesn't matter that he was the better three point shooter, Wade puts the ball in the basket more. I guess you think that Larry Joe is a better scorer then Jordan because he can put shot better? Thats a stupid arguement, and if thats the only reason why you can come to the Zeke>Wade conclusion, then you should probobly stop arguing the topic altoghether.

One of the reasons that Wade turns the ball over more is because he's never had a competent guard to go in the back court with him and relieve pressure (An old Eddie Jones doesn't count, sorry) while Zeke had Finals MVP Joe Dumars to help him.

And Wade (For his peak atleast) is already a top four shooting guard, and I would venture to say that being a top four shooting guard of all time warrants being called one of the 50 greatest to play the game.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

kflo said:


> tell me about zeke, please.
> 
> yes, i'm a true hater. i think jordan's the best ever. such a hater. i don't think he's put wade on lock. a true hater i am.


Anybody can get burned by any player that's fast, it happens time and time again to every single great defensive player, but Jordan was more than willing to guard any player 1 to 3 and IMO did very well at it across the board. However very quick point guards, have a hard time guarding other very quick point guards. So I think your comment about that being a weak area in Jordan's game is completely asinine. 

I find that hard to believe as I Saw Jordan guard players from Zeke, Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf, Terry Porter, Prime quick Ainge (Boston days), and Kevin Johnson. IMO Jordan did a great job guarding them all.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

23AJ said:


> You act like size is a reason why LeBron couldn't be stopped. I can understand your point if he's barely six feet in shoes ala Allen Iverson, but Pippen is big enough to disrupt LeBron, much like Pippen was big enough to guard Charles Barkely and Anthony Mason who happeend to be 6' 8" and 265 pounds legit.


Sir Charles was what? 6'4? 6'5? He also was nowhere the athlete that LeBron is, (He may in fact be the most athletic player ever) and played a completly different style then LeBron does.

And please don't compare Anthony Mason to LeBron, you know better then that.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Anybody can get burned by any player that's fast, it happens time and time again to every single great defensive player, but Jordan was more than willing to guard any player 1 to 3 and IMO did very well at it across the board. However very quick point guards, have a hard time guarding other very quick point guards. So I think your comment about that being a weak area in Jordan's game is completely asinine.
> 
> I find that hard to believe as I Saw Jordan guard players from Zeke, Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf, Terry Porter, Prime quick Ainge (Boston days), and Kevin Johnson. IMO Jordan did a great job guarding them all.


in other words, jordan wouldn't lock down dwyane wade.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

VanillaPrice said:


> Not being as good of a three point shooter hasn't stopped him from scoring FAR more then Zeke ever did; it doesn't matter that he was the better three point shooter, Wade puts the ball in the basket more. I guess you think that Larry Joe is a better scorer then Jordan because he can put shot better? Thats a stupid arguement, and if thats the only reason why you can come to the Zeke>Wade conclusion, then you should probobly stop arguing the topic altoghether.
> 
> One of the reasons that Wade turns the ball over more is because he's never had a competent guard to go in the back court with him and relieve pressure (An old Eddie Jones doesn't count, sorry) while Zeke had Finals MVP Joe Dumars to help him.
> 
> And Wade (For his peak atleast) is already a top four shooting guard, and I would venture to say that being a top four shooting guard of all time warrants being called one of the 50 greatest to play the game.


Your tangent seems way off base,please show me where I ever stated Zeke > Wade ?

Also 3 point shooting, and taking care of the rock are aspects of Zekes game that are better than Wades, it's only a few aspects, Zeke was also a great creator, and averaged a lot more assist than that of Wade. 

Both were great scorers , Wade definitely gets the edge there, and both solid defenders for their positions. Although I give Wade an advantage there as well.

My point was that's it's not an easy choice.

Interesting how you have spun this far from what I ever said.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

kflo said:


> in other words, jordan wouldn't lock down dwyane wade.


Err, you could take from that Jordan did a good job playing against players quick and smaller. But that would be to hard for you, I get that. So yeah just continue saying Jordan was bad at guarding smaller players who were quick, and will let the rest of the contributing members here decide if that was really the case or not. I've made my point.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

VanillaPrice said:


> Sir Charles was what? 6'4? 6'5? He also was nowhere the athlete that LeBron is, (He may in fact be the most athletic player ever) and played a completly different style then LeBron does.
> 
> And please don't compare Anthony Mason to LeBron, you know better then that.


The comparison was in size. And Mason was a beast did you not watch him play ? He also had great handles and had a solid NBA career, don't slight him just because he didn't have the career LeBron is having. If you did that you would cancel out almost the entire history of the NBA. Point I made was obvious, is that LeBrons size wouldn't be as big of an issue to Pippen as you made it out to be.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Err, you could take from that Jordan did a good job playing against players quick and smaller. But that would be to hard for you, I get that. So yeah just continue saying Jordan was bad at guarding smaller players, and will let the rest of the contributing members here decide if that was really the case or not. I've mad my point.


i said jordan wouldn't lock down wade. you seemed to take exception to that, with a diatribe about doubting michael jordan. 

i never said jordan was bad at guarding smaller players. just that it wasn't his strength (relative to his other strengths). 

i don't think jordan would lock down wade. you seem to think jordan would lock down wade.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

kflo said:


> i said jordan wouldn't lock down wade. you seemed to take exception to that, with a diatribe about doubting michael jordan.
> 
> i never said jordan was bad at guarding smaller players. just that it wasn't his strength (relative to his other strengths).
> 
> i don't think jordan would lock down wade. you seem to think jordan would lock down wade.


Wrong, I never said anything about Jordan locking up Wade. You must have my post mixed up with somebody else. My point about Jordan being doubted is exactly what pushed him to become the GOAT. The man said it himself. No reason to think if he was playing right now, someone telling him he couldn't out play D Wade wouldn't motivate him. 

You said that Jordan struggled against smaller quicker players, I disagreed with that notion.

You keep bringing up Jordan locking up Wade, When I never uttered those words. SO please stop spinning, it's insulting to me ,and asinine of you to do. What I ACTUALLY SAID was HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT ? You never answered my question. You supplied an argument that Is wrong IMO to begin with that Jordan struggled against smaller quicker players. Which he didn't Jordan played 1 through 3 positions as well defensively as anyone this league has ever seen.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

23AJ said:


> Your tangent seems way off base,please show me where I ever stated Zeke > Wade ?
> 
> Also 3 point shooting, and taking care of the rock are aspects of Zekes game that are better than Wades, it's only a few aspects, Zeke was also a great creator, and averaged a lot more assist than that of Wade.
> 
> ...


You said that it would be hard to go against Zeke, everyone proved that Wade was better then Zeke at his primes, and then you just kind of rambled on about 3PT% and Turnovers.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

23AJ said:


> The comparison was in size. And Mason was a beast did you not watch him play ? He also had great handles and had a solid NBA career, don't slight him just because he didn't have the career LeBron is having. If you did that you would cancel out almost the entire history of the NBA. Point I made was obvious, is that LeBrons size wouldn't be as big of an issue to Pippen as you made it out to be.


I for one, personally think that it's pretty stupid to compare someone who has had a "Solid NBA career" with someone who may end up being the GOAT.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

VanillaPrice said:


> I for one, personally think that it's pretty stupid to compare someone who has had a "Solid NBA career" with someone who may end up being the GOAT.


Nobody mentioned LeBrons skill set when explaining why Pippen would have a hard time guarding him, they said his Size would be a problem and athletic ability. Hence the comparison's I came up with to showcase that Pippen could guard guy's that were as big as LeBron.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

VanillaPrice said:


> You said that it would be hard to go against Zeke, everyone proved that Wade was better then Zeke at his primes, and then you just kind of rambled on about 3PT% and Turnovers.


Well you could also throw in health as well. Zeke had a very long career with no major injuries. Something D Wade hasn't proven yet. MY whole point is that it a hard choice. Am I not entitled to my opinion ? Because you and others disagree with it ? Man do you just sit around thinking about stuff like, everyone should think like me, and have the same opinions. What I say is the Truth!! Everyone else is just wrong ?

I think I made a good case why Zeke was a great player, and how it's a tough choice between the two players.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

23AJ said:


> Well you could also throw in health as well. Zeke had a very long career with no major injuries. Something D Wade hasn't proven yet. MY whole point is that it a hard choice. Am I not entitled to my opinion ? Because you and others disagree with it ? Man do you just sit around thinking about stuff like, everyone should think like me, and have the same opinions. What I say is the Truth!! Everyone else is just wrong ?
> 
> I think I made a good case why Zeke was a great player, and how it's a tough choice between the two players.


Of course you can have your own opinion; The thing is that no one ever seems to agree with yours, and so every discussion ends with you sayig that it's not worth debating once you get exposed for either showing a lack of knowladge on the subject, or just an ignorant opinion.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

VanillaPrice said:


> Of course you can have your own opinion; The thing is that no one ever seems to agree with yours, and so every discussion ends with you sayig that it's not worth debating once you get exposed for either showing a lack of knowladge on the subject, or just an ignorant opinion.


Oh is that the case, if it's true you wonder why so many would be so eager to have any kind of discussion with me, yourself included ? Seems a bit silly doesn't it ? IF that's actually the case. I guess everyone else here would have to agree with you, and solidify that accusation you have made about my posting here.

So because a discussion ends on this message board, is there like a group or something that says so and so won this debate ? If so yeah, I would be a bit clueless about that, because I don't take this very seriously, I'm not here trying to win anyone over, and I don't look at my posts like they need validation from anyone here, I don't leave a debate saying I've won, there for my opinion is right and grand. Interesting that's what it seems like you do, and I guess many others on this board. Good to know I suppose.

Also I don't see anyone saying I've been exposed in this thread, or I've showed a lack of knowledge on any subject as you've put it.

Hmm...


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

23AJ said:


> Oh is that the case, if it's true you wonder why so many would be so eager to have any kind of discussion with me, yourself included ? Seems a bit silly doesn't it ? IF that's actually the case. I guess everyone else here would have to agree with you, and solidify that accusation you have made about my posting here.
> 
> So because a discussion ends on this message board, is there like a group or something that says so and so won this debate ? If so yeah, I would be a bit clueless about that, because I don't take this very seriously, I'm not here trying to win anyone over, and I don't look at my posts like they need validation from anyone here, I don't leave a debate saying I've won, there for my opinion is right and grand. Interesting that's what it seems like you do, and I guess many others on this board. Good to know I suppose.
> 
> ...


I wasn't talking about this in paticular topic, more of just me saying what i've noticed since I started posting here.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

You guys need to answer the thread question and list your reasons again because it's degenerating into a slugfest.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

^ Yeah, got a little off topic there.. My bad.

Anyway, i'm still waiting for someone to explain how Pippen is going to be able to stop, or even slow down LeBron.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

Here's how I see it. Not one individual can stop Lebron, especially if he is hitting his outside shot. When he is stopped, it's because of a team effort. If this is a 2-on-2 game, nobody has a chance at stopping Lebron, he will just drive to the hoop and dunk over you. BUT, if anyone had a chance of stopping him a little bit, it would be Pippen.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

I'd go with MJ and Scottie, because not only are they better defenders, but they're better perimeter shooters. Because all 4 of these guys can play defense, so they're probably going to have to settle alot of times. Wade and Jordan cancel each other out as midrange jumpshooters,and since Pippen is the more consistant perimeter shooter over LeBron, I think they'll have the edge.

LeBron and Jordan are two of the greatest athletes to ever play, and I think Wade and Pippen (in different ways) are probably in that very next tier.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

I don't like the way that superstars get Defensive Player of the Year consideration when they don't deserve it. I think the true best defenders in the league are often never the superstars. Bruce Bowen shut down LeBron earlier in LeBron's career when he wasn't too different from he is now. I just don't think Pippen is at that great a level to stop LeBron in that way. Not that kind of defense. Of the four players in the topic, I think that Pippen is 4th best. If it's 2v2 I give the edge to the LeBron team. If it's team play then I give it to Jordan because of the chemistry.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

The '93 Heat said:


> I just don't think Pippen is at that great a level to stop LeBron in that way. Not that kind of defense. *Of the four players in the topic, I think that Pippen is 4th best*.


psssssshhhtt. You serious?


I mean, nobody is going to _stop_ LeBron, but the key is to force him into being ineffecient.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Prolific Scorer said:


> psssssshhhtt. You serious?
> 
> 
> I mean, nobody is going to _stop_ LeBron, but the key is to force him into being ineffecient.


Who do you think Pippen is better than?


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Well for starters as a man defender he's better than both James and Wade. He probably doesn't make the big time blocks that those two make, but in a game of 2 on 2 that's not as important as straight man to man defense IMO.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Prolific Scorer said:


> Well for starters as a man defender he's better than both James and Wade. He probably doesn't make the big time blocks that those two make, but in a game of 2 on 2 that's not as important as straight man to man defense IMO.


Oh, I see the confusion. I meant that overall he was 4th not 4th in defense. I think he's probably the best defender in the group. None of the four can shut each other out so the best defender of the group is disadvantaged in this argument.


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## MojoPin (Oct 10, 2008)

are the hypothetical refs making calls for traveling?

one duo would be doomed

:biggrin:


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## Fray (Dec 19, 2005)

The thing about 2 on 2 is that you can't really double team. So I think Jordan would pretty much score at will while Scottie put his energy into defense. Plus Jordan and Pippen played together and already have great chemistry. They're my pick.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

All this talk of guys being shut down... in a 2-on-2 game, no one's locking anyone up. These guys are going to score on the majority of possessions.

And while LeBron-Wade would win in a 2-on-2 game mainly because Pippen's greatest strength (team D) is less valuable in that setting, realize that without having to play nearly as aggressive team defense, Pippen (and Jordan, who was an even more aggressive - though less effective - help defender) becomes a significantly better man defender.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

I've never seen Wade and Lebron James duo in action other than during the olympics. But I do know Jordan and Pippen was one of the best combo I have ever seen; if not the best.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Hakeem said:


> All this talk of guys being shut down... in a 2-on-2 game, no one's locking anyone up. These guys are going to score on the majority of possessions.


Exactly.

With Wade, Lebron, Jordan and Pippen, theres gona be a foul or score on many of these posessions.

The "defence is half of the game" line doesn't really apply when theres no real defence majority of the time for these guys.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

pippen was nowhere near the level of the other 3 in terms of creating his own offense though. he'd have more trouble, imo, breaking down lebron than the other way around. of course, he'd be relying on the other guy to carry the load offensively.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Wrong, I never said anything about Jordan locking up Wade. You must have my post mixed up with somebody else. My point about Jordan being doubted is exactly what pushed him to become the GOAT. The man said it himself. No reason to think if he was playing right now, someone telling him he couldn't out play D Wade wouldn't motivate him.
> 
> You said that Jordan struggled against smaller quicker players, I disagreed with that notion.
> 
> You keep bringing up Jordan locking up Wade, When I never uttered those words. SO please stop spinning, it's insulting to me ,and asinine of you to do. What I ACTUALLY SAID was HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT ? You never answered my question. You supplied an argument that Is wrong IMO to begin with that Jordan struggled against smaller quicker players. Which he didn't Jordan played 1 through 3 positions as well defensively as anyone this league has ever seen.


well, you certainly took exception to saying he wouldn't lock up wade. 

how do i know? how do i know wade wouldn't lock up jordan? 

how do i know jordan wouldn't lock up reggie miller or mitch richmond? 

it's hard to lock down the best offensive players the game has seen.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Jordan vs Richmond:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=richmmi01

Jordan obviously got the better of Richmond in most games but Richmond definitely more then held his own outside of a few games. Wade is clearly a better then Richmond so I don't see the "shutting down" happenings


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

And this is a pretty silly topic, because when you're in the top 95% of the world in basketball (and are all wing players) playing 2 on 2, anything could happen to shift the balance of a game, we all know that from playing people on our own talent level and size.

Like Hakeem said, there's going to be points on about every possession, it just comes down to whos hot or who misses a key shot :whoknows:.

A better question would be which team would be better with either duo. Which is still pretty silly.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Pioneer10 said:


> Jordan vs Richmond:
> http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jordami01&p2=richmmi01
> 
> Jordan obviously got the better of Richmond in most games but Richmond definitely more then held his own outside of a few games. Wade is clearly a better then Richmond so I don't see the "shutting down" happenings


exactly


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## Chan Ho Nam (Jan 9, 2007)

how did Wade get in the topic?

anyways, im still going with MJ/Pippen because i realize Lebron doesn't have great handles, especially this season, there are too many times where he relies on his pull up rather than just driving, it's kind of hard to watch someone like lebron throwing his athleticism away for hot shooting


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Here's another 'Nique vs Pippen:
Looks like the Human Highlight Film pretty much owned Pippen till he got old
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=wilkido01&p2=pippesc01

Pippen vs Hill is interesting: pretty much even. Two guys who are pretty similar in size and shape
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=pippesc01&p2=hillgr01


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

rocketeer said:


> and still get his shot swatted by wade/lebron coming up from behind him.
> 
> oh and your favorite team is the bulls. my guess is that your favorite player is jordan. so that explains away your answer as irrelevant, right?


Try a little harder. Your guess is wrong. My favorite player is NOT jordan, and doesn't even play for the bulls. This of course makes the rest of YOUR argument irrelevant.

As to your point above, not really, since Jordan would dunk, and likely be fouled in the process.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

kflo said:


> when did he lock up isiah thomas, and was thomas as good a scorer as wade?


He most certainly put the brakes on Magic Johnson in 1991......


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> He most certainly put the brakes on Magic Johnson in 1991......


who did?


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Lets describe the difference between Wade/Lebron and Jordan this way, since some people think they are close, offensively:

Wade currently averages 30ppg against no team in the NBA for his career.
Lebron currently averages 30ppg against one team in the NBA for his career.

for good measure we'll throw Kobe, the most lethal scorer in the game today in:

Kobe currently averages 30ppg against no team in the NBA for his career.

Not shaq, arenas, iverson or any other current player. None of them average 30ppg against any one team.

Jordan FINISHED HIS CAREER (including his stint in Washington) with a career average of 30ppg or higher against 14 different teams..........

If you only count his Chicago days, that number goes WAY WAY up, to include nearly every team in the league.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

kflo said:


> who did?


He's talking about Pippen.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

kflo said:


> who did?


Scottie. He did not completely stop his scoring and assists. But Magic was all over the place in game one. In games 2-5, they switched pippen to him, and all of a sudden the entire Laker offense looked out of sync...to the point where they really weren't competitive for the rest of the series. It's not something that shows up in the stat sheet, and in a game or two, the score was closer than the game, but if you go back and watch those games (as I do from time to time), you'll notice that entry passes got ALOT harder, there were MANY MANY more deflections, steals, bad passes, blocked shots, and forced bad shots. Once they put Pippen on the lakers best player (magic) the lakers offense was never even CLOSE to the same.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

The Krakken said:


> Lets describe the difference between Wade/Lebron and Jordan this way, since some people think they are close, offensively:
> 
> Wade currently averages 30ppg against no team in the NBA for his career.
> Lebron currently averages 30ppg against one team in the NBA for his career.
> ...


That is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. Jordan's career points average is 30.1 ppg. So technically, if he scored 30 points every game (his average) then he should average 30ppg against EVERY team, since that is his average. Kobe, Lebron and Wade don't have 30ppg career averages, so of course they aren't going to average 30ppg against many teams. Kobe averages 25ppg for his career, so why would he average 30ppg against teams? Just a ridiculous statement for you to make. 


A much better, and actually accurate statement, would be a year-to-year comparison.

Wade's 6th season vs. Jordan's 6th season.

Points
Jordan: 33.6
Wade: 29.2

Rebounds
Jordan: 6.9
Wade: 5.0

Assists
Wade: 7.4
Jordan: 6.3

Steals
Jordan: 2.8
Wade: 2.2

Blocks
Wade: 1.4
Jordan: 0.7

Turnovers
Jordan: 3.0
Wade: 3.5


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> Scottie. He did not completely stop his scoring and assists. But Magic was all over the place in game one. In games 2-5, they switched pippen to him, and all of a sudden the entire Laker offense looked out of sync...to the point where they really weren't competitive for the rest of the series. It's not something that shows up in the stat sheet, and in a game or two, the score was closer than the game, but if you go back and watch those games (as I do from time to time), you'll notice that entry passes got ALOT harder, there were MANY MANY more deflections, steals, bad passes, blocked shots, and forced bad shots. Once they put Pippen on the lakers best player (magic) the lakers offense was never even CLOSE to the same.


the prior comment was about jordan and isiah though. anyway, yes, pippen was disruptive defensively.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> Lets describe the difference between Wade/Lebron and Jordan this way, since some people think they are close, offensively:
> 
> Wade currently averages 30ppg against no team in the NBA for his career.
> Lebron currently averages 30ppg against one team in the NBA for his career.
> ...


good job bringing out some completely irrelevant numbers.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

myst said:


> That is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. Jordan's career points average is 30.1 ppg. So technically, if he scored 30 points every game (his average) then he should average 30ppg against EVERY team, since that is his average. Kobe, Lebron and Wade don't have 30ppg career averages, so of course they aren't going to average 30ppg against many teams. Kobe averages 25ppg for his career, so why would he average 30ppg against teams? Just a ridiculous statement for you to make.


Obviously you didn't take math, or you wouldn't be making yourself look so foolish right now. They are called AVERAGES, because they are not the same, genius. They are an approximation of the mean, or "what's normal" in output.

What a CAREER average has to do with averages against individual teams is a complete mystery. Moreover, what individual games (scoring 30ppg in every game? We know he didn't do that, so what's the point of such an idiotic starting point?) have to do with this discussion is irrelavent as well. For all you know, he could have (and likely did) averaged 45 against the Suns, Blazers, Warriors and Jazz for example, and only 25 or less, against the Knicks, Pistons, and celtics. Some teams were better defensively than others, just like todays NBA. And he feasted on them. Todays NBA players....not so much. Not as often, and not nearly as effectively. End of discussion.

PS--I have no problem with you throwing my numbers out, and dismissing them. But make sense next time.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

rocketeer said:


> good job bringing out some completely irrelevant numbers.


Glad I could oblige.:yay: For discussions like this, all the numbers are irrelavent anyway, as they played in different eras. You have to use the eyeball test. Jordan would positively OWN either Wade OR Lebron offensively, ESPECIALLY in his prime (90-93), after he found his post game and his jumpshot.

Neither of them really are that close to him yet. Though they do have time. Kobe wasn't that close to him in his sixth year in either. He's closer now, even if he's lost a step.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> Obviously you didn't take math, or you wouldn't be making yourself look so foolish right now. They are called AVERAGES, because they are not the same, genius. They are an approximation of the mean, or "what's normal" in output.
> 
> What a CAREER average has to do with averages against individual teams is a complete mystery. Moreover, what individual games (scoring 30ppg in every game? We know he didn't do that, so what's the point of such an idiotic starting point?) have to do with this discussion is irrelavent as well. For all you know, he could have (and likely did) averaged 45 against the Suns, Blazers, Warriors and Jazz for example, and only 25 or less, against the Knicks, Pistons, and celtics. Some teams were better defensively than others, just like todays NBA. And he feasted on them. Todays NBA players....not so much. Not as often, and not nearly as effectively. End of discussion.
> 
> PS--I have no problem with you throwing my numbers out, and dismissing them. But make sense next time.


so what were jordan's mean, median and stdev against the competition compared to lebron and wade and kobe? is your point that jordan had a smaller stdev?


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

The Krakken said:


> Glad I could oblige.:yay: For discussions like this, all the numbers are irrelavent anyway, as they played in different eras. You have to use the eyeball test. Jordan would positively OWN either Wade OR Lebron offensively, ESPECIALLY in his prime (90-93), after he found his post game and his jumpshot.
> 
> Neither of them really are that close to him yet. Though they do have time. Kobe wasn't that close to him in his sixth year in either. He's closer now, even if he's lost a step.


non pace adjusted numbers are completely irrelevant. Pace adjusted numbers are relevant.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> Glad I could oblige.:yay: For discussions like this, all the numbers are irrelavent anyway, as they played in different eras. You have to use the eyeball test. Jordan would positively OWN either Wade OR Lebron offensively, ESPECIALLY in his prime (90-93), after he found his post game and his jumpshot.
> 
> Neither of them really are that close to him yet. Though they do have time. Kobe wasn't that close to him in his sixth year in either. He's closer now, even if he's lost a step.


your point? we aren't talking about jordan playing one on one with lebron or wade and i hadn't seen anyone say that lebron or wade is better than jordan.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

rocketeer said:


> your point? we aren't talking about jordan playing one on one with lebron or wade and i hadn't seen anyone say that lebron or wade is better than jordan.


My point is that Jordan is "Better enough" than Lebron or Wade to offset either or both of them being better than Pippen.

In english: Even if you believe there's a gap between Lebron and/or Wade, and Pippen, the gap between Jordan and Lebron/Wade is big enough to offset that.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

The Krakken said:


> Obviously you didn't take math, or you wouldn't be making yourself look so foolish right now. They are called AVERAGES, because they are not the same, genius. They are an approximation of the mean, or "what's normal" in output.
> 
> What a CAREER average has to do with averages against individual teams is a complete mystery. Moreover, what individual games (scoring 30ppg in every game? We know he didn't do that, so what's the point of such an idiotic starting point?) have to do with this discussion is irrelavent as well. For all you know, he could have (and likely did) averaged 45 against the Suns, Blazers, Warriors and Jazz for example, and only 25 or less, against the Knicks, Pistons, and celtics. Some teams were better defensively than others, just like todays NBA. And he feasted on them. Todays NBA players....not so much. Not as often, and not nearly as effectively. End of discussion.
> 
> PS--I have no problem with you throwing my numbers out, and dismissing them. But make sense next time.


Wow, you just made yourself look like a fool. If somebody is averaging 20ppg, and another player is averaging 40ppg. And you say well, the second player averaged 35ppg against 20 teams, but the first player averaged 35ppg against 0 teams, you do realize that the first player averaged less then 35ppg, therefore it is idiotic to use that against him. 

Now, if both players averaged 40ppg, but the first player averaged 35ppg against 20 teams, and the second player averaged 35ppg against 10 teams, then that is a fair comparison, but it still proves nothing.

You could have simply said, Jordan scored more points per game (regardless of who it was against) then the other 3 players.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> My point is that Jordan is "Better enough" than Lebron or Wade to offset either or both of them being better than Pippen.
> 
> In english: Even if you believe there's a gap between Lebron and/or Wade, and Pippen, the gap between Jordan and Lebron/Wade is big enough to offset that.


and i'm saying that the gap between lebron/wade and pippen is larger than the gap between lebron/wade and jordan.

you talking about how jordan averaged 30+ points per game against 14 teams doesn't really say anything either way to any of that.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

Also I think one point that many people seem to miss when talking about duos is how they complement each other.

To me both Lebron and Wade are the same type. They are used to play the same type of role: go to guy, main ball handler, etc. Obviously they're both very good players and will give defenders nightmare. But, from what I've seen so far, I have a feeling that if Wade and Lebron would play together, when one is dominating the play then the other one don't really know what to do other than to wait for his chance. These 2 guys are so good at being go to guys and playing one on one I doubt they know how to be effective when the other guy is dominating the ball.

On the other hand MJ and Pippen are two different players who knows how to fill each other's void; especially Pippen. That's why IMO he's so good. I'm a Pippen fan so you guys might stamp me a homer. But I've seen Pippen play many times and I still haven't seen a player who can dominate a game and have a big impact as a complementary player/sidekick type player like he did. Many times when you see a star player on a roll offensively, the team offense tend to be stagnant and you see a lot of the movements will be made by the star player and the other just wait. What was so special about that MJ/Pippen team was they're both active at the same time constantly throughout the game looking to take over the game. It was like MJ depends on Pippen just as much as Pippen depend on MJ. Pippen always knew how to run next to MJ and make himself effective whether it's making cuts for an entry pass, making the rigt pass, drive and dish, hitting the threes, covering MJ by going the extra mile on defense. Pippen IMO was the reason behind why it was extra difficult to stop MJ in those days.

So I think Jordan/Pippen combo can certainly give Lebron/Wade a lot of trouble. In their prime I think both are about the same athletically and physically. I'd give Lebron an edge due to his freakish combination of size, athleticism and quickness. But Pippen is not too bad himself. he's athletic, very long and scary versatile.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

> _when did he lock up isiah thomas, and was thomas as good a scorer as wade?_


Thomas is a better long-range threat and was quicker than Wade. simple reasoning shows that if Jordan could stop player A-Zeke at these things, even if for a limited time only (the space of a game or so) then player B-Wade, who is worse in those areas, would have less of a chance.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

JT said:


> Thomas is a better long-range threat and was quicker than Wade. simple reasoning shows that if Jordan could stop player A-Zeke at these things, even if for a limited time only (the space of a game or so) then player B-Wade, who is worse in those areas, would have less of a chance.


Your reasoning doesn't much much sense since Jordan didn't guard Thomas all that much. Plus Zeke had a couple of bad games against Chicago but otherwise did pretty much his average against them:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=thomais01&p2=jordami01

In fact Isiahs' numbers from ppg, apg, fg% against Chicago are almost the exact same as his career averages.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> Your reasoning doesn't much much sense since Jordan didn't guard Thomas all that much. Plus Zeke had a couple of bad games against Chicago but otherwise did pretty much his average against them:
> http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=thomais01&p2=jordami01
> 
> In fact Isiahs' numbers from ppg, apg, fg% against Chicago are almost the exact same as his career averages.


The reason Jordan guarded Zeke was because he was usually the most threatening scorer of the Pistons. Not because it was Jordans natural position to cover, and I'm Not sure where you found your link, but I Saw a lot of games where MJ guarded Zeke. The point all along is that small guys who are quick were not really a problem for Jordan. As I pointed out, through out MJ's entire career he guarded a lot of quick PG's and off guards.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

chairman5 said:


> anyways, im still going with MJ/Pippen because i realize Lebron doesn't have great handles, especially this season, there are too many times where he relies on his pull up rather than just driving, it's kind of hard to watch someone like lebron throwing his athleticism away for hot shooting


LeBron's not going to be pulling up for jumpers when there's no collapsing help D or interior presence.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

23AJ said:


> The reason Jordan guarded Zeke was because he was usually the most threatening scorer of the Pistons. Not because it was Jordans natural position to cover, and I'm Not sure where you found your link, but I Saw a lot of games where MJ guarded Zeke. The point all along is that small guys who are quick were not really a problem for Jordan. As I pointed out, through out MJ's entire career he guarded a lot of quick PG's and off guards.


who was guarding isiah in game 6? game 2? game 4? 

jordan would not lock down dwyane wade, certainly not with any consistency.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Call me crazy but I think Wade and Lebron might win this if it's 2 on 2.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Wade and Lebron are significantly bigger than Jordan and Pippen. It would be like when your dad played you in one on one when you were 13. Wade himself is like 15 pounds bigger than Pippen. Lebron is 50 more than Pippen, 70 more than Jordan. With 3 inches on Jordan, and 2 inches on Pippen. How would Jordan and Pippen keep Lebron or Wade out of the paint? Once they got their shoulders past it would be over.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Wade and Lebron are significantly bigger than Jordan and Pippen. It would be like when your dad played you in one on one when you were 13. Wade himself is like 15 pounds bigger than Pippen. Lebron is 50 more than Pippen, 70 more than Jordan. With 3 inches on Jordan, and 2 inches on Pippen. How would Jordan and Pippen keep Lebron or Wade out of the paint? Once they got their shoulders past it would be over.


c'mon, lets not act like wade is outmuscling pippen and jordan in the paint.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Brandname said:


> Call me crazy but I think Wade and Lebron might win this if it's 2 on 2.


Cuz Jordan wouldn't be able to score at will? Anyways, it would be one hell of a game. We're talking about two elite players of today and two elite of yesterday.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

IceMan23and3 said:


> Cuz Jordan wouldn't be able to score at will? Anyways, it would be one hell of a game. We're talking about two elite players of today and two elite of yesterday.


I have no doubt Jordan would be able to score at will. I'm not sure Scottie would be able to though.

EDIT: Also, I firmly believe that nobody in NBA history could consistently stay in front of Wade without defensive help. Nobody.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Brandname said:


> I have no doubt Jordan would be able to score at will. I'm not sure Scottie would be able to though.
> 
> EDIT: Also, I firmly believe that nobody in NBA history could consistently stay in front of Wade without defensive help. Nobody.


thing is, there aren't many guys i'd put in front of jordan to guard a guy like wade (payton, moncrief and cooper, maybe smaller guys like cheeks or blaylock). but stopping him is pretty tough.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Wade and Lebron are significantly bigger than Jordan and Pippen. It would be like when your dad played you in one on one when you were 13. Wade himself is like 15 pounds bigger than Pippen. Lebron is 50 more than Pippen, 70 more than Jordan. With 3 inches on Jordan, and 2 inches on Pippen. How would Jordan and Pippen keep Lebron or Wade out of the paint? Once they got their shoulders past it would be over.


I would love to know where you're getting these numbers... apparently Scottie Pippen shrunk...

Edit to add: D-Wade right now is listed at 216 pounds... Pippen finished his career listed at 228


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

Pioneer10 said:


> Your reasoning doesn't much much sense since Jordan didn't guard Thomas all that much. Plus Zeke had a couple of bad games against Chicago but otherwise did pretty much his average against them:
> http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=thomais01&p2=jordami01
> 
> In fact Isiahs' numbers from ppg, apg, fg% against Chicago are almost the exact same as his career averages.


okay the numbers are the same. that's great. add, subtract and divide them however you like. but the games where MJ made a concerted effort, he was able to significantly slow down Zeke. dealing with blobs of raw data might cause one to overlook this.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

kflo said:


> who was guarding isiah in game 6? game 2? game 4?
> 
> jordan would not lock down dwyane wade, certainly not with any consistency.


Strange you keep saying Jordan wouldn't lock down Wade. Even though nobody in this thread has ever made that claim. The truth is factually that you really don't know what Jordan would do in a game of 2 on 2 with him guarding Wade. 

However it's factual based on a large amount of evidence in Jordan's NBA career, that Jordan didn't struggle guarding smaller quicker players. Where you were implying earlier in this thread MJ did struggle against smaller quicker players.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

23AJ said:


> Strange you keep saying Jordan wouldn't lock down Wade. Even though nobody in this thread has ever made that claim. The truth is factually that you really don't know what Jordan would do in a game of 2 on 2 with him guarding Wade.
> 
> However it's factual based on a large amount of evidence in Jordan's NBA career, that Jordan didn't struggle guarding smaller quicker players. Where you were implying earlier in this thread MJ did struggle against smaller quicker players.


I think where the trouble is is that people construe being locked up as Wade being held to zero points? that's unrealistic in any thought experiment. what would happen though, is that Wade would be made to struggle far more than he has against any perimeter defender playing in the nba today. thus the "locked up" phraseology. of course he would still score, nobody is denying that.

hopefully, that clarifies things. so, if that's not the reason (for the disconnect), I don't have any more answers. people are objecting just to object.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Strange you keep saying Jordan wouldn't lock down Wade. Even though nobody in this thread has ever made that claim. The truth is factually that you really don't know what Jordan would do in a game of 2 on 2 with him guarding Wade.
> 
> However it's factual based on a large amount of evidence in Jordan's NBA career, that Jordan didn't struggle guarding smaller quicker players. Where you were implying earlier in this thread MJ did struggle against smaller quicker players.


noone made that claim? that was what i originally responded to, when you seemed to take exception. 

what large amount of evidence are you talking about? has any been presented?


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

kflo said:


> noone made that claim? that was what i originally responded to, when you seemed to take exception.
> 
> what large amount of evidence are you talking about? has any been presented?


Umm I asked a simple question, how do you know what Jordan would or wouldn't be able to do. Because I sure as hell don't know. Than you made the argument that Jordan struggled against smaller quicker players thus he wouldn't be able to lock up Wade. I refuted your point (not about Wade/but about small quick players), showed MJ guarding a smaller quicker player in Zeke, also gave numerous example's of MJ in his career doing just fine against quicker smaller players. I think you assumed that when I asked you how do you know what Jordan would do, as me saying MJ would lock up Wade, but I never said that buddy.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Umm I asked a simple question, how do you know what Jordan would or wouldn't be able to do. Because I sure as hell don't know. Than you made the argument that Jordan struggled against smaller quicker players thus he wouldn't be able to lock up Wade. I refuted your point (not about Wade/but about small quick players), showed MJ guarding a smaller quicker player in Zeke, also gave numerous example's of MJ in his career doing just fine against quicker smaller players. I think you assumed that when I asked you how do you know what Jordan would do, as me saying MJ would lock up Wade, but I never said that buddy.


and i asked how you know wade wouldn't lock down jordan. 

you didn't refute anything. you showed a clip of jordan guarding isiah. that doesn't tell us anything, and it certainly doesn't refute anything. it doesn't tell us isiah scored 33 points in game 2 and 6, and 27 in game 4. 

at minimum, you took exception to me saying jordan wouldn't lock up wade, and responded with a jordan gatorade commercial script (wade's the gatorade man now!). how do i know he wouldn't lock up wade? i already made the point that he didn't lock up reggie, he didn't lock up richmond, he didn't lock up alot of guys who weren't as good as wade. he was a great defensive player, one of the best i've seen, but a guy like wade is going to score and he's going to penetrate. these guys don't get locked up. the can be slowed by individual and team defense. 

by the way, here's the original post i responded to:



JT said:


> defensively, if Jordan is on Wade then he is locked up. no drives, no jumpshots, no nothing.


i said that's not happening, and that shouldn't be too controversial. yet you took exception.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

I've seen Kirk Hinrich and Thabo Sefolosha both lock Wade up... 

and we're talking about Michael Jordan.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Dornado said:


> I've seen Kirk Hinrich and Thabo Sefolosha both lock Wade up...
> 
> and we're talking about Michael Jordan.


But Kflo is a know it all. If you haven't noticed yet. The guy pretty much spins every post of mine, and act's as if any of the evidence means nothing.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

I'm just waiting on my guy who is a bonafide jordan expert to get back to me, so I can end this. I cannot find the place I saw it, but I distinctly remember seeing a video showing indisputable evidence that Zeke gets held up by the long-arms of MJ. if I turn out to be wrong, then so I be, but I really doubt it.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Dornado said:


> I've seen Kirk Hinrich and Thabo Sefolosha both lock Wade up...
> 
> and we're talking about Michael Jordan.


and i've seen michael jordan locked up. 

it's no disrespect to jordan to think he's not going to do this:



> no drives, no jumpshots, no nothing.


to dwyane wade with any regularity.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

23AJ said:


> But Kflo is a know it all. If you haven't noticed yet. The guy pretty much spins every post of mine, and act's as if any of the evidence means nothing.


boo hoo. 

the evidence is that this "(defensively, if Jordan is on Wade then he is locked up. no drives, no jumpshots, no nothing)" isn't happening to dwyane wade with regularity. 

it's not a freakin insult to the great one. 

and you haven't presented much evidence. i mean, if i showed a clip of isiah thomas scoring 17 pts in the 4th and 33 for the game in the clinching game 6 of the very same series of your video, would that make me right? 

do i know for a fact that this (defensively, if Jordan is on Wade then he is locked up. no drives, no jumpshots, no nothing.) isn't happening? no, just like i don't know for a fact that wade isn't doing the same to jordan. i find it unlikely, given what i've seen from both. if someone would have predicted "no drives, no jumpshots, no nothing" for mitch richmond against jordan, they would have been wrong. and the same goes for many others. it's simply the nature of great offense vs great defense. 

do you really think my position was that controversial?


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

kflo said:


> boo hoo.
> 
> the evidence is that this "(defensively, if Jordan is on Wade then he is locked up. no drives, no jumpshots, no nothing)" isn't happening to dwyane wade with regularity.
> 
> ...


LOL

My position has always been the same. How do you know ? You gave your argument, and I disputed it. Simple as that.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

you'd probably be in a better position to tell me to stop digging if you did more than calling me a know it all. 

but lol at you deciding you are just killing it here.

it's easier to respond with a "you're a know it all", than to actually counter. but whatever. you did post a video after all.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

kflo said:


> you'd probably be in a better position to tell me to stop digging if you did more than calling me a know it all.
> 
> but lol at you deciding you are just killing it here.
> 
> it's easier to respond with a "you're a know it all", than to actually counter. but whatever. you did post a video after all.


I call it how I see it. Just as everyone here has no issues calling me out. Also I believe JT had it right you rather just object for the sake of it, not that you actually have any legit merit to what your posting. At any rate I'll maintain what I've said all along in this thread, you maintain what you will. And will let the other contributing members figure out who's more on point here, me or you.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

myst said:


> And... GO!
> 
> Who would win and why?
> 
> I pick Jordan and Pippen because of defense.


If it were a 2 on 2 I might say wade and lebron but for a team i am saying Jordan and Pippen 10 X out of 10. 

They were more tough on defense and Jordan is the best player ever, so.........


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

JT said:


> okay the numbers are the same. that's great. add, subtract and divide them however you like. but the games where MJ made a concerted effort, he was able to significantly slow down Zeke. dealing with blobs of raw data might cause one to overlook this.


That still doesn't make sense: you stated he shut down Thomas and you have no evidence of it. Detroit won more then there fair share of games against Jordan's Bulls so you would think it Jordan could just shut down Thomas they would have had him do it


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

Jordan mostly failed to shut down Vernon Maxwell, btw. 6'3" athletic SG (though barely an average offensive player).

No good offensive NBA player can be shut down by one man alone. Even with help defense in a 5-on-5 setting, you will probably never find a case where a defender was able to hold an All-Star-level scorer to below 75% of their normal output over the course of a few seasons.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Hakeem said:


> Jordan mostly failed to shut down Vernon Maxwell, btw. 6'3" athletic SG (though barely an average offensive player).
> 
> No good offensive NBA player can be shut down by one man alone. Even with help defense in a 5-on-5 setting, you will probably never find a case where a defender was able to hold an All-Star-level scorer to below 75% of their normal output over the course of a few seasons.


What's your definition of shut down ?

For example I Saw Paul Pierce shut down LeBron James tonight on ESPN. 5-15 shooting for example is being shut down IMO.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

1. It wasn't just Paul Pierce. It was the entire Celtics defense.
2. It's one game. He's not going to shoot 33% against them for a whole series, let alone over the course of multiple seasons.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

21 points on 15 shots is not shutting down: it's definitely not Lebron's best or usual production but it was still an efficient game. The Cavs didn't lose the Celtics game because of offense they scored enough points it was just there defense was atrocious


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> 21 points on 15 shots is not shutting down: it's definitely not Lebron's best or usual production but it was still an efficient game. The Cavs didn't lose the Celtics game because of offense they scored enough points it was just there defense was atrocious


5-15 shooting is efficient if your a scrub. Not if your name is LeBron. But maybe the expectations are falling.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Hakeem said:


> 1. It wasn't just Paul Pierce. It was the entire Celtics defense.
> 2. It's one game. He's not going to shoot 33% against them for a whole series, let alone over the course of multiple seasons.


Actually LBJ shooting percentage against the Celtics since KG/Pierce/Allen have been on the celtics together as been pretty ugly, I believe it's in the low 30 percent, I'll find the stats for you if I can. They showed it on ESPN last night.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

^ LeBron's average against the Celtics since last season: 30/7/8 on 55% TS%. 

And it's actually 43% from the field, but three-pointers and free throws make his efficiency decent (his TS% is average for all starters in the league; slightly worse than Kobe's efficiency for the season, slightly better than Tony Parker's). This is against the best defense in the league.


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## pG_prIDe (Jun 23, 2002)

If it was a 2 vs. 2 situation, hypothetically (as in comparing abilities), I'd say its about even overall. Realistically, if you put current Wade and Bron together versus prime Jordan and Pippen, I'd go with Jordan and Pippen. I mean these two practiced with and against each other for 11 years. Their chemistry and familiarity would win out in the latter situation.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

kflo said:


> and i've seen michael jordan locked up.
> 
> it's no disrespect to jordan to think he's not going to do this:
> 
> ...


my point there was not to imply, as I said, that Wade would not score at all. frequently I exaggerate for effect. so be it.

unfortunately as I haven't gotten a response back yet from my guy, I'll have to suspend my claim that jordan locked zeke up for 48 minutes. in-depth internet searches turned up nil, which makes me distrust my memory a bit even knowing about its constructive nature beforehand.

moving on, kflo you mentioned that jordan wouldn't be able to stop wade with any consistency. I never once attested that he would, and in fact qualified my post as saying that I envisioned this to be a sort of one shot game only. you seem to be arguing with phantoms again, by tacking on that "with regularity" toward the end there. again, the claim was never made by me, so drop it.

another poster wrote that since isiah's averages (against the Bulls) were pretty much spot-on with his career averages that Jordan must not have done much against him. and, if Jordan could just lock him up at anytime, why not go to it at all times? ignoring the spotty reasoning there, I have to state that there are too many circumstances to account for. of the pistons backcourt duo, zeke was undoubtedly much more proficient one. but dumars was no slouch either. that is, if dumars gets hot then MJ has to switch over. the exact same thing happened in the 2004 finals with Kobe sticking either Rip/Chauncey. contain one hole and the other starts leaking water. foul situations also come into play. then there are the times where Isiah scores off of his own defensive plays, scoring in transition, switches, etc. so facing man-up against Jordan was extremely rare. but in the few full games I've seen of 80s Pistons/Bulls basketball, MJ more than held his own against Zeke in the halfcourt. and by 'holding his own' I mean off-balance shot or pass-off.

I still stand by my idea that Jordan would significantly limit Wade in in this type of an environment (one game only, winner take all). does good offense usually beat good defense as is generally thought? yes. but appealing to general truisms, or pre-digested maxims is easy and quite frankly intellectually lazy. I could just as easily throw out Jordan always performed when the stakes were highest, say he had the will to win, and make some sort of fuzzy statement about his defensive fundamentals being rocksolid when it came to one-on-one defense...etc. but that's below me. 

I don't have any numbers for this, but contrasting Jordan's strengths as a man defender along with Wade's strengths as an offensive player, leads me to the reasonable conclusion that Jordan would have the edge, a clear majority of the time during this game, three salient aspects of that edge being Jordan's strength, hand/foot speed and anticipation.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

i use with regularity because anything could happen in a single game. jordan was "locked up" many times in his career. mostly in one-off games against guys he would otherwise torch. in a single game, jordan can be locked up against wade just the same. but certainly not with any regularity. if you don't think someone could lock someone else up with regularity, it's meaningless to suggest they would do it in any single game. 

jordan played solid defense against isiah in game 3 of the '89 playoffs. helped hold him to a bad shooting night. but isiah also had big games in game 2, game 4 and the clinching game 6, including 17 in the 4th (33 for the game) to ice the series. what do we conclude? jordan wanted to lock him down in game 3, but not game 6? and while dumars came into his own in '89, it was still isiah's show. '90 maybe less so. 

and you did say this: "defensively, if Jordan is on Wade then he is locked up. no drives, no jumpshots, no nothing". without any caveats. that's what i initially responded to, and simply said he wouldn't lock him up as you defined it (no drives, no jumpshots, no nothing). those were your words. you came in much later and caveated locked up to mean something it seems much different. i'm fine with defining it differently, but that's not what i initially responded to.


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> Wade and Lebron are significantly bigger than Jordan and Pippen. It would be like when your dad played you in one on one when you were 13. Wade himself is like 15 pounds bigger than Pippen. Lebron is 50 more than Pippen, 70 more than Jordan. With 3 inches on Jordan, and 2 inches on Pippen. How would Jordan and Pippen keep Lebron or Wade out of the paint? Once they got their shoulders past it would be over.



Wade and Lebron signifantly bigger than Jordan and Pippen? Which MJ and Pip are you talking about, the 80's version, when either weren't in their primes?

Prime MJ and Pip were both bigger than Wade. Any fool could see that.

And Lebron ain't that much bigger than either. I personally think folks exaggerate the kid's size, making it seem like he's as big as Karl Malone or Anthony Mason.

THOSE guys were significanly bigger than Jordan or Pippen. And neither could stop MJ or Pip from scoring on them.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

Air Jordan 23 said:


> I personally think folks exaggerate the kid's size, making it seem like he's as big as Karl Malone or Anthony Mason


Karl Malone- 6'9 255 pounds
Anthony Mason- 6'7 250 pounds
Lebron James- 6'8 272 pounds





> Some hearsay from an Oklahoma City radio show that LeBron James was recently seen standing on the scale, and it said 272 pounds. ESPN's Ric Bucher responds saying he has heard a similar number about James' weight, then says the great line: "He's Karl Malone with Allen Iverson's speed and agility."


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

We might get to see Lebron and Wade play together to get a fair comparison against MJ and Pippen




> EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. -- Somebody is going to try to blame me for this, I just know it.
> 
> Having seen Dwyane Wade play in New Jersey Friday night, I of course made the trip across the bridges and tunnels to see his pal LeBron James Sunday. Rule No. 1: Never miss a LeBron appearance in the New York metropolitan area.
> 
> ...


http://ken-berger.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/14173475


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> That still doesn't make sense: you stated he shut down Thomas and you have no evidence of it. Detroit won more then there fair share of games against Jordan's Bulls so you would think it Jordan could just shut down Thomas they would have had him do it


Jordan most certainly locked up Isiah for many games/halves in all of those playoff series. He didn't guard him every game, though. Check game 3 of the '89 Finals, when he held Isiah to 7 points and 6 assists on like 2-9 shooting. He also guarded him for several halves and some entire games in each of the '89-'91 playoffs and did a fantastic job each time. The full games are up on youtube (michalus and tjhunt's channel, among others).


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Jordan most certainly locked up Isiah for many games/halves in all of those playoff series. He didn't guard him every game, though. Check game 3 of the '89 Finals, when he held Isiah to 7 points and 6 assists on like 2-9 shooting. He also guarded him for several halves and some entire games in each of the '89-'91 playoffs and did a fantastic job each time. The full games are up on youtube (michalus and tjhunt's channel, among others).


Yeah but if it's 89 Jordan, he didn't have a consistent J, so Lebron can just play off him and give him the jumpshot. He was built like a stick then too, so either Bron or Wade could take him into the post and beat him like a rented mule.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

myst said:


> We might get to see Lebron and Wade play together to get a fair comparison against MJ and Pippen


Um...they have played together...for the last few summers. In the olympics. You might have seen them combining to bring home the gold this past summer as the heart and soul of team USA. I think they have pretty decent chemistry.

I think a closer matchup would be Magic and Michael vs. Lebron and Wade. At least Magic is similar in size to Lebron. More exciting matchup too.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Jordan most certainly locked up Isiah for many games/halves in all of those playoff series. He didn't guard him every game, though. Check game 3 of the '89 Finals, when he held Isiah to 7 points and 6 assists on like 2-9 shooting. He also guarded him for several halves and some entire games in each of the '89-'91 playoffs and did a fantastic job each time. The full games are up on youtube (michalus and tjhunt's channel, among others).


so he guarded isiah in the game 3 win, but decided not to in the game 4 and game 6 losses when isiah had big games.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

myst said:


> Karl Malone- 6'9 255 pounds
> Anthony Mason- 6'7 250 pounds
> Lebron James- 6'8 272 pounds


where was this mysterious scale lebron was standing on, adding more mystery to the lebron weight mysterious mystery?


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## Bon]{eRz (Feb 23, 2005)

I'm in the Jordan/Pippen camp, simply because they've been one of the best (if not the best) duos of all time to play together winning multiple championships over many seasons who's skill sets we already know completmented each other well, whereas its difficult to say how Lebron and Kobe/Wade would co-exist on the same team with only one ball to share between them from the small sample of All-star and Olympic games they've played together in. 

Going through some of the points and arguments discussed throughout this thread though, I can't believe kflo's patience and tolerance with some of the posters. I'd have given up in frustration trying to have a rational debate by the first few posts lol


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> Um...they have played together...for the last few summers. In the olympics. You might have seen them combining to bring home the gold this past summer as the heart and soul of team USA. I think they have pretty decent chemistry.
> 
> I think a closer matchup would be Magic and Michael vs. Lebron and Wade. At least Magic is similar in size to Lebron. More exciting matchup too.


Um... thanks for the heads up, I've never heard of this thing you call the Olympics...



Anyways, on the USA team they are playing with other superstars against great teams, it would be different to see them on an NBA team playing with mostly mid-level guys and scrubs going against teams like the Lakers, Spurs and Celtics.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Jordan most certainly locked up Isiah for many games/halves in all of those playoff series. He didn't guard him every game, though. Check game 3 of the '89 Finals, when he held Isiah to 7 points and 6 assists on like 2-9 shooting. He also guarded him for several halves and some entire games in each of the '89-'91 playoffs and did a fantastic job each time. The full games are up on youtube (michalus and tjhunt's channel, among others).


that's what I was referring to, but I couldn't find the boxscores nor those videos where I saw 'em. anyone have a site that lists the data? oldtime stuff is hard to locate.


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

wade and jordan are about even, with wade getting a slight edge offensively because of his sheer quickness. i can see wade blowing past jordan. and also pippen guarding lebron?


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

OMGBaselRocks! said:


> wade and jordan are about even, with wade getting a slight edge offensively because of his sheer quickness. i can see wade blowing past jordan. and also pippen guarding lebron?


Are you saying Wade is better then Jordan? Because even I wouldn't go there.


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

myst said:


> Are you saying Wade is better then Jordan? Because even I wouldn't go there.


no. its just a matchup problem for mj imo. mj never had to face a player as quick, athletic and explosive like wade. its like mj facing a younger verison of himself.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

OMGBaselRocks! said:


> no. its just a matchup problem for mj imo. mj never had to face a player as quick, athletic and explosive like wade. its like mj facing a younger verison of himself.


That would be the case for almost any SG: Wade's going to go down if he stays healthy for a few more years as either 3rd best SG or even second best SG of all time depending on how career shakes out versus Kobe. Drexler was great but he was never as good as Wade


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

LOL wade isn't even on jordan's planet. nobody is.

lebron and wade are getting close, but no way.


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

Pioneer10 said:


> That would be the case for almost any SG: Wade's going to go down if he stays healthy for a few more years as either 3rd best SG or even second best SG of all time depending on how career shakes out versus Kobe. Drexler was great but he was never as good as Wade


yeah. also, if wade continues this onslaught for the next 5-6 years and wins a couple more of titles and maybe even an mvp, then i could see him overtaking kobe in ranking, as it stands right now.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

LMAO @ Current Wade "blowing by" or being quicker than a young MJ.

I'll give current Wade the midrange game over a 26-27 year old MJ, but that's about it.

Jordan never had to guard players as quick as Wade? Then who are Isiah Thomas, a prime Latrell Sprewell or a prime Anfernee Hardaway?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Prolific Scorer said:


> LMAO @ Current Wade "blowing by" or being quicker than a young MJ.
> 
> I'll give current Wade the midrange game over a 26-27 year old MJ


i wouldn't



Prolific Scorer said:


> , but that's about it.
> 
> Jordan never had to guard players as quick as Wade? Then who are Isiah Thomas, a prime Latrell Sprewell or a prime Anfernee Hardaway?


neither sprewell or hardaway were as quick as wade. i don't think isiah even was, although he was probably shiftier. and both hardaway and sprewell peaked when jordan was on his decline defensively.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

kflo said:


> i wouldn't
> 
> 
> 
> neither sprewell or hardaway were as quick as wade. i don't think isiah even was, although he was probably shiftier. and both hardaway and sprewell peaked when jordan was on his decline defensively.


Nice rebuttle :sarcasm: 

It doesn't matter when Jordan faced whoever the point is he defended guys who have comparable quickness to Wade.

Sprewell and Hardaway didn't have speed as a far as running up and down the floor, but both of those guys had the first steps and lateral quickness of a Wade. I don't know exactly what you're trying to argue.

[email protected] in defensive decline in 1993-1996..

Nice to see Chicago go 72-10 & MJ making All-D first team in spite of him declining defensively.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Prolific Scorer said:


> Nice rebuttle :sarcasm:
> 
> It doesn't matter when Jordan faced whoever the point is he defended guys who have comparable quickness to Wade.
> 
> Sprewell and Hardaway didn't have speed as a far as running up and down the floor, but both of those guys had the first steps and lateral quickness of a Wade. I don't know exactly what you're trying to argue.


i'm arguing they didn't have the first step or lateral quickness of a wade. 



Prolific Scorer said:


> [email protected] in defensive decline in 1993-1996..
> 
> Nice to see Chicago go 72-10 & MJ making All-D first team in spite of him declining defensively.


well, neither spree or hardaway were in their prime in '93 (hardaway wasn't in the league). latrell had a per of 13.5 in '93, and peaked in '97 at 19.7. hardaway averaged 24.5 on 61% ts% ppg head-to-head against jordan from '95 to '97.

yes he made first team in '96. no, he wasn't in his prime defensively.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

kflo said:


> i'm arguing they didn't have the first step or lateral quickness of a wade.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The initial point wasn't that MJ was in his defensive prime (does that really matter? Are you saying that MJ wasn't still a semi-stellar defensive player at that time?) when he guarded those guys, just that he HAS guarded guys with comparable quickness and athleticism to Wade.

...and if you honestly think that Spree and Penny didn't have comparable quickness (or a comparable first step) then you my friend don't know what you're talking about.

Go watch some vintage highlights or mixtapes.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Prolific Scorer said:


> The initial point wasn't that MJ was in his defensive prime (does that really matter? Are you saying that MJ wasn't still a semi-stellar defensive player at that time?) when he guarded those guys, just that he HAS guarded guys with comparable quickness and athleticism to Wade.
> 
> ...and if you honestly think that Spree and Penny didn't have comparable quickness (or a comparable first step) then you my friend don't know what you're talking about.
> 
> Go watch some vintage highlights or mixtapes.


because i disagree with you i don't know what i'm talking about?


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

I can't believe that this is still going! This is the thread that never ends! AND it has nothing to do with Kobe!


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

kflo said:


> because i disagree with you i don't know what i'm talking about?


Have I ever said that in any other arguement? Uh...


ANYWAYS...


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

IceMan23and3 said:


> I can't believe that this is still going! This is the thread that never ends! AND it has nothing to do with Kobe!


I bumped it because of Lebrons comments about playing with Wade.


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

kflo said:


> i'm arguing they didn't have the first step or lateral quickness of a wade.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


precisely.i think people are just confused with determining what a lateral 1st step quickness is. also like you said penny wasnt even i the league on 93 and hasnt peaked in 97.


jordan was'nt the quick defender he was in his second tenure with the bulls (95-99).


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

Everybody is comparing individually. We all know they are all great individually but how will they mesh?

I think I read through 7-8 pages of this thread and only saw the word *chemistry* once.

That is why MJ/Pippen will win more so than anything else. They have proven chemistry. 6 championships proof. They complement each other like gin and juice.

MJ is a great defender. I saw a 40 year old MJ get burned by VC in the first quarter and then totally shut him down the next three. Jordan was a terrific on the ball defender but he really should have had 6-7 all defense first teams not nine. 

Pippen was equally as good defensively when you factor in his versatility. He could guard the 1-2-3 and even the 4 at times. Only defender I can think off my head that was clearly more versatile is Rodman. 

MJ will not lock up Wade but I won't be surprised if MJ really played D on Wade he could make him go 5-24 like the other night and 10 turnovers and score 35 on him the other end. Wade can't stop Jordan. Period.

Pippen has defended 6'8 260 players before but not of Lebron's mobility and strength. Lebron is unstoppable going to the basket especially with his ability to take contact and finish but Pippen will be able to defend Lebron as well as anyone. 

2 on 2 or 5 on 5 I take MJ/Pippen over Wade/Lebron 7 out of 10.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

kflo said:


> i wouldn't
> 
> 
> 
> neither sprewell or hardaway were as quick as wade. i don't think isiah even was, although he was probably shiftier. and both hardaway and sprewell peaked when jordan was on his decline defensively.


Penny was wirly quick (does that even make sense?) and Wade is explosively quick. Penny had more speed than Wade though. At first when I read that you wrote Isiah might not have been as quick as Wade I thought it was blasphemy but just thinking back in my head I say Wade's first step is quicker than Isiah's. Lebron and Jordan were incredibly quick as well. 

On another note, KJ and Derrick Rose are probably the quickness players I have ever seen.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Gilgamesh said:


> Everybody is comparing individually. We all know they are all great individually but how will they mesh?
> 
> I think I read through 7-8 pages of this thread and only saw the word *chemistry* once.


It was actually mentioned in 6 posts


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

Gilgamesh said:


> MJ is a great defender. I saw a 40 year old MJ get burned by VC in the first quarter and then totally shut him down the next three.


Mj got away with a lot of contact, especially defensively. 40 year old MJ always had that fire but his body rarely agreed with him. as a basketball fan who saw a lot of wizards games in DC a few years ago, ill say jerry stackhouse was a much more appropriate defender for washington. i do admit though that, in his first year as a wizard jordan was quite possibly the best defender in washington. thats one of the reason why rip hamilton got traded the next year.




Gilgamesh said:


> Penny was wirly quick (does that even make sense?) and Wade is explosively quick. Penny had more speed than Wade though.


penny was pretty quick for a guy who is 6'7 (?) but he's no match for wade on lateral quickness and full court press quickness. wade, tony parker and barbosa are among the leagues quickest players ive seen recently (reminds me of steve francis and stephon marbury during their younger years). in top form no one player today is going to cover them man to man. penny was quick but he's no match for wade. i saw mookie blaylock shut penny down on more than one occassion, i dont think mookie would've done the same to wade, as elite as a defender mookie was.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Gilgamesh said:


> Jordan was a terrific on the ball defender but he really should have had 6-7 all defense first teams not nine.


Nonsense. There was no other guard besides Payton who had more defensive impact on games than '96-'98 Jordan. The only other guard besides Payton who was close in terms of 1-on-1 defense was Eddie Jones in '97 and '98, but I'd still give MJ the edge there, plus Jordan's help/team defense was miles (literally miles) beyond Jones'. Go watch the Bulls/Pacers series from '98 and tell me that Jordan didn't deserve his defensive team selection.

As for Jordan not being able to guard Wade, well, I've seen Kobe this year and last (a worse defender than '89-'93 Jordan) do a great job on Wade. I've also seen Jordan lock down guys like Isiah, Tim Hardaway, Kevin Johnson etc. I don't think Wade is much quicker or more explosive than, say, KJ. And KJ literally couldn't do anything against Jordan in the '93 Finals when he was on him (~30% of the series). 2-on-2 is obviously different than when you have 10 guys on the court (more space to make moves), but Jordan would do as good a job as anyone on Wade even if he didn't shut him down (which he wouldn't imo).


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

Prolific Scorer said:


> Have I ever said that in any other arguement? Uh...
> 
> 
> ANYWAYS...


I realize you are trying to celebrate your teams accomplishments, and there is nothing wrong with that. But celebrating division championships, and having only 4, I think that is actually doing the opposite of what you are going for.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

myst said:


> I realize you are trying to celebrate your teams accomplishments, and there is nothing wrong with that. But celebrating division championships, and having only 4, I think that is actually doing the opposite of what you are going for.


I'm sure his banner will get bigger as time goes on considering the Magic have Howard and all. Probably will add a few NBA championships to that banner as well.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

Idunkonyou said:


> I'm sure his banner will get bigger as time goes on considering the Magic have Howard and all. Probably will add a few NBA championships to that banner as well.


Well of course, as long as Howard stays long term, this will be the best generation of Magic basketball. But showing off 4 division championships is a little weird to me.


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