# Horry & Nash



## ProudBFan (Apr 29, 2003)

Wow. That body-check Horry put on Nash last night was the biggest hit I've seen one NBA player put on another without throwing a punch, an elbow, etc. Actually, it did kinda look like Horry put a little elbow into it, but it was a different kind of elbow action, if you know what I mean. More of a push-off than a throw, is what I'm trying to say.

Anyway, ya know, I was just thinking about something: Do you think Horry did that with the intent to draw some Suns off the bench and get them suspended for the next game? It looks like Amare and Boris will be. And that's a much bigger hit to the Suns than Horry himself being suspended would be to the Spurs. Would be a complete shame to see the Suns suffer more than the Spurs for something a Spur did, but rules are rules (and somewhere down deep I think Horry had that in mind when he did it).

One other thing: That kind of play is the last thing I would expect from Horry. Just never known him to have that kind of mean streak in him. Looks like "Big Shot Rob" has expanded his repretoire a bit.

PBF


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Total Bush league play. That being said, Horry being the savvy vet that he is really made a great play there because Amare and Diaw SHOULD be suspended if they uphold the letter of the rule. 

I don't think they should really be suspended though. They didn't do anything.


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## AllEyezonTX (Nov 16, 2006)

Horry knows how young & quick tempered the Suns are....Great Move by Horry, now the "L" has to follow the rules & suspend them for a game!


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

As I said in the Bowen thread, Amare was at the scorers table to check into the game, so he didnt technically come off the bench.


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## BIG Q (Jul 8, 2005)

Just the thought of them being suspended is a joke. If the league wants to maintain any semblence of fairness, they will also then suspend Duncan and Bowen for fighting on the court. Sure, they claim they were just trying to be "peace makers," but you can not let one teams goon get the other teams starters suspended and not also be adversely affected.


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## BIG Q (Jul 8, 2005)

I am listening to a Iavaroni interview right now on local radio. He is saying that earlier in the game, when Elson hung on the rim and there was an interuption in play do to some pushing, etc. Duncan was on the bench at the time of that incident and he left the bench and stepped on the court. The Suns will be having the league look at that incident as well.


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## ProudBFan (Apr 29, 2003)

Assume for a second that Amare, Diaw, Bell, and Horry get suspended. If I'm the Suns, I wait until Duncan heads to the bench in Game 5, send in a group of 5 players who are not in the regular playoff rotation, and do exactly what Horry did last night; deliver some hard hits and start something. Let's see how many Spurs come up off that bench.

Tired of crap like this from the Spurs. Someone's gotta swing back on 'em.

PBF


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

No matter what the league does in this situation, they will look bad. There is no easy out here. All doors lead to problems.

IFFFFFFFFFF, the officials had not let this series get so out of hand to begin with, they probably wouldn't in this difficult situation. But the Suns players are very jumpy right now because the Spurs are trying, and mostly succeeding, in thugging up this series. Very little too blatant. But constant fouling, grabing, pushing, etc. The Bowen, "whoops, did I just clip the back of your foot?", and "whoops, did I just knee you in the nuts?" are examples of getting caught by the camera in the barrage of constant, non-stop fouling. 

If the officials had put Timmy and Orberto in foul trouble like they did to Amare, and fouled out Bowen, as he should be in every game, it would have cleaned things up.

So, yet again, it comes down to the officiating. One way or another, it has huge impact on the game.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

ProudBFan said:


> Assume for a second that Amare, Diaw, Bell, and Horry get suspended. If I'm the Suns, I wait until Duncan heads to the bench in Game 5, send in a group of 5 players who are not in the regular playoff rotation, and do exactly what Horry did last night; deliver some hard hits and start something. Let's see how many Spurs come up off that bench.
> 
> Tired of crap like this from the Spurs. Someone's gotta swing back on 'em.
> 
> PBF


Ummm, I think the league has some rule in place, that if a team pulls something like this, they fine the team $1 million, or something.

Big time no no.

The Suns have to be covert and semi-sneaky with their retaliation. Just like the Spurs. Think Bowen. He is the master of nasty fouls that can't be proven to be intentional. He has NEVER talked trash or admitted what he is doing. Thus, he always says, "oops". Total bull. But, without a smoking gun, what have you got?


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## ProudBFan (Apr 29, 2003)

Masbee said:


> Ummm, I think the league has some rule in place, that if a team pulls something like this, they fine the team $1 million, or something.
> 
> Big time no no.
> 
> The Suns have to be covert and semi-sneaky with their retaliation. Just like the Spurs. Think Bowen. He is the master of nasty fouls that can't be proven to be intentional. He has NEVER talked trash or admitted what he is doing. Thus, he always says, "oops". Total bull. But, without a smoking gun, what have you got?


I hear ya, Masbee. As in life outside the NBA, the truly devious are sometimes able to manipulate the rules so they end up hurting the very people they are intended to protect.

Still, I hope the Suns don't take this one lying down.

PBF


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

I think Robert Horry has more rings than any other active player. I'm sure he wants one more before he retires, but I can't imagine he would wait until this point in his career to decide to do something like intentionally draw the other team into a fight to get them suspended.

I think the Spurs are getting thuggish, and the league should continue reviewing plays and retroactively assigning flagrant fouls. I don't know how the rules work, but multiple offenders like Bowen should start getting suspensions if the review finds them to be serious. Yeah, the league is definitely a lose-lose situation for the league. Do they let ref reviews of games decide who plays, and potentially decide who wins? Or do they let the players just keep bashing each other? Neither option is pleasant, but I think if they take the high road and do enforce the rules, even if it likely affects the outcome of the series, the L comes out smelling less like doo-doo.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

I guess "Big Shot Bob" is now "Big Shove Bob."

I'm hoping the Suns pull this series out, because I can't stand watching the Spurs play in another title series. They've got to be the most boring team in the league to watch. Not to mention they are smug, obnoxious, and dirty players.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

B_&_B said:


> As I said in the Bowen thread, Amare was at the scorers table to check into the game, so he didnt technically come off the bench.




Did you see the play B&B? As much as I don't want to see them suspended, Amare was nowhere near the scorers table.


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## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

ProudBFan said:


> I hear ya, Masbee. As in life outside the NBA, the truly devious are sometimes able to manipulate the rules so they end up hurting the very people they are intended to protect.
> 
> Still, I hope the Suns don't take this one lying down.
> 
> PBF


Yeah, well, haven't we seen this before? Stockton with his choirboy face putting an elbow or knee into someone's nuts?

I am concerned the series are getting thuggish and funnily enough it's in the West, although the East has the rep as the thug conference. The Warriors will also be lucky if they have no suspensions. Derek Fisher chose to take the high road (up 3 games to 1, why not?) after taking an elbow to the head. 

Query: do you think guys like Tim Duncan and Tony Parker can keep their gentleman reps because someone else is doing the thug work for them?


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

ProudBFan said:


> Still, I hope the Suns don't take this one lying down.


The best revenge wouldn't be to hit back, it would be to win the series. The Suns would be smart to remember that.


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## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

Alright, everyone get ready to boo . . . personally this is what I love about NBA basketball playoffs (boooooo). You don't get this intensity during the regular season . . . and when you get this kind of intensity in a contact sport, questionable incidents are bound to happen. 

I know I'll be tuning into the next game . . . part of the draw is too see just how physical this series gets. Imagine game seven in Phoenix, SA will figure the only way to win game seven on the road is to physically dominate and intimidate the Suns for 4 quarters. Phoenix will not try to get caught up in all that and outplay SA with an uptempo game . . . good stuff.


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## ProudBFan (Apr 29, 2003)

mediocre man said:


> Did you see the play B&B? As much as I don't want to see them suspended, Amare was nowhere near the scorers table.


No, he wasn't. That defense isn't going to hold up for him, I'm afraid. Sir Charles tried the same defense back in the day, and it didn't work for him either.

PBF


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## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

ProudBFan said:


> No, he wasn't. That defense isn't going to hold up for him, I'm afraid. Sir Charles tried the same defense back in the day, and it didn't work for him either.
> 
> PBF



So what about the defense that after the foul, he went to go check in and had to go on the court to get around the players who were blocking his path to go check in. :biggrin:


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

As I have said in another thread, I do not believe anybody should be suspended but Horry, because there was no fight. Players are only supposed to be suspended if they join a fight on the court, which is defined by them standing up off the bench in the event of a fight. Robert Horry and Nash did not get into a fight, thus there should be no further suspensions. Harsh words hardly cross the boundries of a full flurry court rumble.


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## ProudBFan (Apr 29, 2003)

Kiss_My_Darius said:


> So what about the defense that after the foul, he went to go check in and had to go on the court to get around the players who were blocking his path to go check in. :biggrin:


Flimsy. He wasn't heading to the scorer's table with that look of fury on his face. He was rushing to the aid of his captain.

PBF


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## ProudBFan (Apr 29, 2003)

hasoos said:


> As I have said in another thread, I do not believe anybody should be suspended but Horry, because there was no fight. Players are only supposed to be suspended if they join a fight on the court, which is defined by them standing up off the bench in the event of a fight. Robert Horry and Nash did not get into a fight, thus there should be no further suspensions. Harsh words hardly cross the boundries of a full flurry court rumble.


As I replied in the other thread, hasoos, you've got it wrong. During or in response to an on-court altercation, ANY sidelined player who steps onto the court will be suspended. Yes, it's heavy-handed, but that's how the NBA is trying to keep brawls from getting started. You step onto the court during or in response to an altercation, you're going to be suspended. Doesn't matter if you involve yourself in the altercation or not.

Based on everything I've seen and heard, Horry, Amare, and Diaw will definately be suspended. Horry will get the longest suspension, because not only did he commit the flagrant 2 against Nash, but he also threw an elbow at Raja Bell during the ensuing scuffle. I don't know if Raja Bell was in play at the time the incident occurred (I think he was). If he was, he won't be suspended - he grabbed at Horry (prompting Horry to throw the elbow) but never threw a punch or an elbow. But Tim Duncan may also be suspended as well - he came off the bench during a scuffle earlier in the game. So...

Definitely Will Be Suspended: Horry, Amare, Diaw
May Be Suspended: Bell, Duncan

...is how I see it right now.

Suspending Duncan for coming off the bench during that scuffle earlier in the game may just be the "out" that the league needs to enforce their rules without hitting the Suns harder than the Spurs over this. That would be the right and fair thing to do.

PBF


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## yuyuza1 (May 24, 2006)

When do we find out about suspensions?


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## ProudBFan (Apr 29, 2003)

yuyuza1 said:


> When do we find out about suspensions?


I think the only time-table the League has for announcing them is game-time of Game 5. They are usually pretty quick about such things, though, to give the affected teams time to adjust their lineups and strategies accordingly.

I suspect we will start hearing rulings early this afternoon (Pacific). They may take more time on the rulings for Duncan and/or Bell.

PBF


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

Talkhard said:


> I guess "Big Shot Bob" is now "Big Shove Bob."
> 
> I'm hoping the Suns pull this series out, because I can't stand watching the Spurs play in another title series. They've got to be the most boring team in the league to watch. Not to mention they are smug, obnoxious, and dirty players.


Or "Cheap Shot Bob." And you left off "whining." I can't stand the Spurs and it isn't because they are supposedly boring. They whine on every offensive possession; they foul on every defensive possession; and yes they have turned into the league's top cheap shot team. That shot by Horry had nothing to do with giving a hard foul during the action of a playoff game. It would have been very easy to give the token end of game foul or simply to wrap Nash up. That was yet another attempt to injure a Suns player. That makes at least 3 this series, and it was completely uncalled for, playoffs or not.


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## smeedemann (Jul 16, 2003)

If the NBA is going to suspend Amare and Diaw along with Horry they need to suspend Duncan and Bowen as well. See links:

Article - http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_y...F?slug=sk-sunsspurs051507&prov=yhoo&type=lgns 

Video - http://bumpshack.com/2007/05/15/tim-duncan-left-the-bench-last-night-as-well/


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## ProudBFan (Apr 29, 2003)

Compliments of Sedd over on the Suns forum, video of Duncan leaving the bench during the earlier scuffle, before a team-mate quietly reminds him to get back.

PBF


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## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

smeedemann said:


> If the NBA is going to suspend Amare and Diaw along with Horry they need to suspend Duncan and Bowen as well. See links:
> 
> Article - http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_y...F?slug=sk-sunsspurs051507&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
> 
> Video - http://bumpshack.com/2007/05/15/tim-duncan-left-the-bench-last-night-as-well/



Speaking of body check . . . check out the body on the "bumphottie of the moment"


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

ProudBFan said:


> As I replied in the other thread, hasoos, you've got it wrong. During or in response to an on-court altercation, ANY sidelined player who steps onto the court will be suspended. Yes, it's heavy-handed, but that's how the NBA is trying to keep brawls from getting started. You step onto the court during or in response to an altercation, you're going to be suspended. Doesn't matter if you involve yourself in the altercation or not.
> 
> Based on everything I've seen and heard, Horry, Amare, and Diaw will definately be suspended. Horry will get the longest suspension, because not only did he commit the flagrant 2 against Nash, but he also threw an elbow at Raja Bell during the ensuing scuffle. I don't know if Raja Bell was in play at the time the incident occurred (I think he was). If he was, he won't be suspended - he grabbed at Horry (prompting Horry to throw the elbow) but never threw a punch or an elbow. But Tim Duncan may also be suspended as well - he came off the bench during a scuffle earlier in the game. So...
> 
> ...



That is where I disagree with you. See I don't view last nights event as an Altercation. There were no blows exchanged, so I don't view it as a fight, or even an "altercation". I view it as a few words exchanged. No big whoop this is playoff basketball.


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## ProudBFan (Apr 29, 2003)

hasoos said:


> That is where I disagree with you. See I don't view last nights event as an Altercation. There were no blows exchanged, so I don't view it as a fight, or even an "altercation". I view it as a few words exchanged. No big whoop this is playoff basketball.


Whether you and I disagree (and it's OK to disagree, BTW) doesn't matter to the league. And the league has a history of playing very closely to the letter of the law in such cases.

And yes, there were blows exchanged. Horry threw an elbow at Raja Bell's head during the ensuing scuffle.

PBF


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## kaydow (Apr 6, 2004)

dudleysghost said:


> I think the Spurs are getting thuggish


That's something I never thought I'd hear. We're talking about Tim "Big Fundamentals" Duncan and company, right? The Spurs play physical, and Phoenix doesn't like it. Truthfully, I don't think Horry meant to create this fiasco. I think he was frustrated they blew a double digit lead and bumped Nash accordingly. People are giving him far too much credit for "taking one for the team". That said, I don't think the NBA should supsend ANYONE. I think the league should send a message that they will not tolerate anymore nonsense and supsensions will be sent down to the next player (s) who gets out of line. I know rules are rules, but it just isn't fair to supsend Amare. Give me a break. That just gives the series to SA, and rewards them for Horry's flagrant foul. I don't think the league wants to "reward" that type of play, regardless of the Horry's intent. It's total BS if they do, and I can imagine how mad I'd be if it were the Blazers playing SA and we were in the Suns position - I'd be furious.


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

ProudBFan said:


> Whether you and I disagree (and it's OK to disagree, BTW) doesn't matter to the league. And the league has a history of playing very closely to the letter of the law in such cases.
> 
> And yes, there were blows exchanged. Horry threw an elbow at Raja Bell's head during the ensuing scuffle.
> 
> PBF



I think if the league suspended Amare and others for this, the next game I would have my 5 starters on the bench(safely tucked away) and send over everybody else on my team to start a fight with the Spurs and get them all thrown out. :biggrin:


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## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

So what should the new rule be:

You can not leave the bench and step onto the court during an altercation, unless you had reasons to and/or suspending the person would be too damaging to the team.

Really if Amare doesn't get suspended, doesn't that allow the next violator to use the "they started it" defense. 

Do we really want Stern deciding, in his discretion, what is fair and what isn't?


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## ProudBFan (Apr 29, 2003)

kaydow said:


> That said, I don't think the NBA should supsend ANYONE. I think the league should send a message that they will not tolerate anymore nonsense and supsensions will be sent down to the next player (s) who gets out of line.


They already have the rules in place. To do what you're suggesting would be to make an exception for everything that's happened up to this point, and "start fresh" from here on out. And that undermines the rules that exist right now, that were in effect at the time the incident(s) occurred. And that undermines the league's ability to enforce the rules, both now and in the future. Don't like this idea at all. Would invariably lead to more of the same, with players/coaches/teams all having the ability to point at this series and say, "You made an exception for them!". Bad precedent to set, espectially in the face of established rules (which were agreed to by the NBA Players' Association, BTW).



> I know rules are rules, but it just isn't fair to supsend Amare. Give me a break. That just gives the series to SA, and rewards them for Horry's flagrant foul. I don't think the league wants to "reward" that type of play, regardless of the Horry's intent. It's total BS if they do, and I can imagine how mad I'd be if it were the Blazers playing SA and we were in the Suns position - I'd be furious.


You're right. The only "fair" and "right" thing the league CAN do in this case is to suspend Duncan along with Horry, Amare, and Diaw. Duncan is guilty of doing the EXACT same thing Amare and Diaw did. Can't suspend them without suspending him. It lets them enforce their rules, while at the same time avoiding punishing the Suns more heavily than the Spurs for the things the Spurs have been doing. Like I said, it's really the only "fair" and "right" thing the League can do in this case that also preserves the integrity of their rules.

PBF


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## kaydow (Apr 6, 2004)

hasoos said:


> I think if the league suspended Amare and others for this, the next game I would have my 5 starters on the bench(safely tucked away) and send over everybody else on my team to start a fight with the Spurs and get them all thrown out. :biggrin:


Think about that - if you're Tim Duncan, Ginobli, or Tony P. and Pat Burke (from the Suns) takes a cheap shot at you . . . are you going to retaliate? Maybe a knucklehead like some of the guys we've had before is stupid enough to fall for that, but not those guys.


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## ProudBFan (Apr 29, 2003)

hasoos said:


> I think if the league suspended Amare and others for this, the next game I would have my 5 starters on the bench(safely tucked away) and send over everybody else on my team to start a fight with the Spurs and get them all thrown out. :biggrin:


Yeah, but that would be too obvious, and would likely lead to a coach suspension, HUGE fine, or worse from the league (as Masbee pointed out earlier).

But if I had the ability to see into the future and know what the outcome of the series would be (either way), I'd go ahead and do it (to the Spurs).

"OOPS! Didn't mean to undercut you on your dunk attempt!"

"OOPS! Didn't mean to knee you in the privates!"

"OOPS! Didn't mean to trip you on that fast break there!"

"OOPS! Did I just smack you with my off-hand when I shot that one?"

"OOPS! Sorry 'bout that really hard pick, man!"

You get the picture....

PBF


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## ProudBFan (Apr 29, 2003)

kaydow said:


> Think about that - if you're Tim Duncan, Ginobli, or Tony P. and Pat Burke (from the Suns) takes a cheap shot at you . . . are you going to retaliate? Maybe a knucklehead like some of the guys we've had before is stupid enough to fall for that, but not those guys.


The point is to take 'em out hard enough so they don't have the ability to retalliate. You know, a "preemptive strike"...

PBF


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## stockfire (Jul 17, 2004)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2007/news/story?id=2871615

Wow, Amare and Diaw to miss a game, Horry to miss two.

What an amazingly poor use of judgement by Stern. If I were a Suns fan i'd be LIVID. Wait, i'm a Blazers fan and i'm livid. Terrible deicision, not even close to being fair and/or just.


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## ryanjend22 (Jan 23, 2004)

ProudBFan said:


> The only "fair" and "right" thing the league CAN do in this case is to suspend Duncan along with Horry, Amare, and Diaw. Duncan is guilty of doing the EXACT same thing Amare and Diaw did. Can't suspend them without suspending him.
> 
> PBF


The rules clearly state that IF and only IF there is a altercation, anyone coming off the bench will get suspended. However when Tim Duncan did this there WAS NOT an altercation. The two players involved never even looked at each other in the eyes, let alone approach each other.


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