# Pg dominance



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

Who are the top point gaurds in the league as of right now?Before you answer that...

Steve Nash scored 11 of his 30 points in the fourth quarter as Dallas improved to 10-0 on the season with a 96-88 victory in New Jersey on Saturday. The Mavs outscored the Nets 29-15 in the fourth period, when Dirk Nowitzki talled 10 of his 18 points and Shawn Bradley hit two clutch jumpers in the final five minutes. Michael Finley finished with 20 points and 13 boards.

All that was because of Nash pentrating and just killing JKIDD off the dribble. With a bad hip and back on top of that. Hes seeing a chrirprator to realign his back before the game with Lakers..Random thoughts?

Payton
Nash
Francis
Miller
Kidd

thats my top 5 in order.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> Payton
> Nash
> Francis
> ...


did you mean not in any order? matter of fact, knowing you, you would put Jason Kidd as the 5th best point guard in the NBA:| 

My top PG's would go something like this:

1.*Jason Kidd* - is by far the best PG in the NBA.
2.*Francis - *Steve has unbelieveable talent; he may not be a traditional PG but he gives his team the lift and inspiration they need every night.
2.*Payton* - a true vet who knows how to win. he has a complete game 
4.*Baron Davis* - true impact players with a complete all around offensive game; he's not a bad defender either.
5.*Stephon Marbury*-mad handle, good passer, good rebounder for a guard. his done side seems to be his work ethic.
6.*Dre Miller*-great playmaker but needs a little work defensively.
7.*Steve Nash*-a great scorer/shooter and has nice court vision; although he's a liability on defense.
8.*Bibby*-I like the clutch and he's a very good team player
9.*Cassell*-great shooter, good passer, and he can step up to make big shots.
10.*John Stockton*-can still do exactly what you need a pg to do find the open man, he's still a good defender, and he can shoot from anywhere on the court.


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Pg dominance*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> did you mean not in any order? matter of fact, knowing you, you would put Jason Kidd as the 5th best point guard in the NBA:|
> ...


how is Nash a liability on D when the Mavs have the 10th best D in the League?


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Pg dominance*



> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> 
> 
> how is Nash a liability on D when the Mavs have the 10th best D in the League?


I dont think of him as a very good defender, he isnt bad. But I'm sure he'll never be an all league defender. 

Nash is by no means the heart of the defense.


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Pg dominance*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> I dont think of him as a very good defender, he isnt bad. But I'm sure he'll never be an all league defender.
> ...


all I know is he murdered Kidd in the 2nd half 30 points total, 20 int the 2nd half 11 in the 4th when the Nets were up by six. I dont think Ive seen Kidd fustrated like that in a long time.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pg dominance*



> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> 
> 
> all I know is he murdered Kidd in the 2nd half 30 points total, 20 int the 2nd half 11 in the 4th when the Nets were up by six. I dont think Ive seen Kidd fustrated like that in a long time.


oh i know Nash is an outstanding offensive player. he is one of the best in the NBA, but he's not better than Kidd. he just played better that game.


----------



## stevenash (Nov 11, 2002)

whooooooooa whhhoa kidd is overated, i put payton and nash ahead of him, kidd wasnt exactly playing great defense on nash in the nets mavs game. nash smoked him


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pg dominance*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> oh i know Nash is an outstanding offensive player. he is one of the best in the NBA, but he's not better than Kidd. he just played better that game.


Nobody thought Kidd was all that great until that fluke season in NJ.


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Nobody thought Kidd was all that great until that fluke season in NJ.


Huh? How many times was Kidd first team All-NBA, first team All-Defense, and an All-Star?

Nash is alright and played a better game than Kidd, but if you think Nash is a better player than Kidd...whatever man.


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> Huh? How many times was Kidd first team All-NBA, first team All-Defense, and an All-Star?
> ...


Im not saying hes was not a great player what Im saying (I guess in trying to get my point acroo I belittled him) is that It was always about payton and Stockton until he led NJ to the Finals. But I do think Nash is better than Kidd but a lot of it has to do with the systems theyre in.


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

How far do you think Nash/Kittles/Jefferson/Martin/Mutumbo would go in the East?

Likewise...

How far do you think the Mavs with Kidd would go?


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> How far do you think Nash/Kittles/Jefferson/Martin/Mutumbo would go in the East?
> 
> Likewise...
> ...


we alredy tried with Kidd...we sucked.


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

If anybody watched the Lakers game then you might see my arguement. Nash minipulated the Lakers, Nash decimated Kidd.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pg dominance*



> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> 
> 
> Nobody thought Kidd was all that great until that fluke season in NJ.


you have lost your mind!


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pg dominance*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> you have lost your mind!


I admitted my mistake if you read the whole thread.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pg dominance*



> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> 
> 
> I admitted my mistake if you read the whole thread.


I see, but do you really think nash is better than kidd. 

i can't believe you think that. if you'll still had Kidd, youd beat the lakers with or without shaq. 

Jason Kidd is a top five point guard of all time


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> How far do you think Nash/Kittles/Jefferson/Martin/Mutumbo would go in the East?
> 
> Likewise...
> ...


With who? Jim Jackson and Jamal Mashburn?

How about giving Kidd your current roster, you think they would go farther with Nash than Kidd?


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> With who? Jim Jackson and Jamal Mashburn?
> ...


IMO Kidd is the better Point Guard but not neccesarily the best point guard for the mavericks. He most likely wouldnt fit into the style that the play. They need Nash doing what he does to keep defenses honest. His jumper is light years ahead of Kidd's


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> IMO Kidd is the better Point Guard but not neccesarily the best point guard for the mavericks. He most likely wouldnt fit into the style that the play. They need Nash doing what he does to keep defenses honest. His jumper is light years ahead of Kidd's


Jason Kidd is the right point guard for any offense.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Jason Kidd is the right point guard for any offense.


Not neccesarily, would the mavericks be able to run the same offense with Kidd at the point who doesnt shoot nearly as well as Nash does to keep the defenses honest???


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> Not neccesarily, would the mavericks be able to run the same offense with Kidd at the point who doesnt shoot nearly as well as Nash does to keep the defenses honest???


Nash is a better shooter that's it. If Kidd played for the Mavs regardless of the offense he would create for others to get open shots. He's the best point guard in the NBA. If I were cuban and the Nets wanted to deal, I'd be on it like a charlotte hornet!


----------



## stevenash (Nov 11, 2002)

OMG IV [strike]YOU ARE RETARDED[/strike] :dead: 



he was obviously the wrong point guard for suns and the mavs


No personal attacks--BEEZ


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pg dominance*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> I see, but do you really think nash is better than kidd.
> ...


Now isnt that a bit of the stretching of the truth?


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

Obviously Mavs fans will take up for their boy and Nets fans will do the same. If you want an unbiased opinion to the question "who would you rather have as your PG, Kidd or Nash?" Take it to the NBA board. It's just my opinion, but I think Kidd would win out.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> Obviously Mavs fans will take up for their boy and Nets fans will do the same. If you want an unbiased opinion to the question "who would you rather have as your PG, Kidd or Nash?" Take it to the NBA board. It's just my opinion, but I think Kidd would win out.


That is true but that wasnt the question. Plain and simple Nash is better for the Mavs than Kidd would be


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> Obviously Mavs fans will take up for their boy and Nets fans will do the same. If you want an unbiased opinion to the question "who would you rather have as your PG, Kidd or Nash?" Take it to the NBA board. It's just my opinion, but I think Kidd would win out.


your only as good as the media portays you.


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> Obviously Mavs fans will take up for their boy and Nets fans will do the same. If you want an unbiased opinion to the question "who would you rather have as your PG, Kidd or Nash?" Take it to the NBA board. It's just my opinion, but I think Kidd would win out.


Fine, present the question as Kidd with the four other Mavs starters vs Nash with the four other Mavs starters. IMO Kidd still wins out.


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> That is true but that wasnt the question. Plain and simple Nash is better for the Mavs than Kidd would be


Media is a weak excuse. To this point in the season, no team has received more positive media than the Mavs.


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> Media is a weak excuse. To this point in the season, no team has received more positive media than the Mavs.


Im not talking about the Mavs. Im talking about players in general. Obviosly everyone cant see every single game in the NBA so you form an opinion about players based on what you read. Two players with the same stats can get two different articles. Did anyone really know that Bibby was that good outside of Vancouver? No because noone wrote himin that light. Now hes the best thing since sliced bread. So many players on small market or losing teams recieve the same treatment cause the media is scared to do real articles on people. Thats why I enjoy this board so much because you here the stories that you dont read in your local newspaper. As soon as the media says Nash is the best point gaurd in the game every one else will say it and call you crazy for believing otherwise. Ifd they say Harold Minor is the next Jordan thats what we believe and if he doesnt meet that expectation run him out the NBA. The media has the power to make a good player seem great or a great player only seem good. Thats what I meant by your only as good as the media portrays you.


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> Media is a weak excuse. To this point in the season, no team has received more positive media than the Mavs.


And as far as positive recogntion all you here is they have a soft schedule they havent played any body. Wait until this or that happens. If they went 82-0 that probably wouldnt be good enough for people.

you dont here they are 6-0 on the road against the top eastern conference teams.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> Media is a weak excuse. To this point in the season, no team has received more positive media than the Mavs.


What does this have to with anything  , where are you coming from with that?????


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> What does this have to with anything  , where are you coming from with that?????


BEEZ I was refering the comment that you are only as good as the media portays you, which implied people would take Kidd over Nash simply because of the media. I completely disagree with that.


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> 
> 
> Im not talking about the Mavs. Im talking about players in general. Obviosly everyone cant see every single game in the NBA so you form an opinion about players based on what you read. Two players with the same stats can get two different articles. Did anyone really know that Bibby was that good outside of Vancouver? No because noone wrote himin that light. Now hes the best thing since sliced bread. So many players on small market or losing teams recieve the same treatment cause the media is scared to do real articles on people. Thats why I enjoy this board so much because you here the stories that you dont read in your local newspaper. As soon as the media says Nash is the best point gaurd in the game every one else will say it and call you crazy for believing otherwise. Ifd they say Harold Minor is the next Jordan thats what we believe and if he doesnt meet that expectation run him out the NBA. The media has the power to make a good player seem great or a great player only seem good. Thats what I meant by your only as good as the media portrays you.


Kidd has received more press since moving to the New York area, but that does not explain his countless All-NBA first team awards and All-Defensive first team awards PRIOR to coming to New Jersey.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pg dominance*



> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> 
> 
> Now isnt that a bit of the stretching of the truth?


Okay, name 5 better point guards then jason kidd?


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pg dominance*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Okay, name 5 better point guards then jason kidd?


ever? or this year.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pg dominance*



> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> 
> 
> ever? or this year.


when its all said and done. top five of all time!


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pg dominance*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> when its all said and done. top five of all time!


Magic, Stockton, Cousy, Archibald, Oscar Robertson


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pg dominance*



> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> Magic, Stockton, Cousy, Archibald, Oscar Robertson



Stockton
Magic
Zeke
Cousy
Kidd

Oscar Robertson was a shooting guard


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pg dominance*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually he wasnt he finished his career as a shooting guard. His last 3 1/2-4 years were as a shooting guard:bbanana:


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pg dominance*



> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually he wasnt he finished his career as a shooting guard. His last 3 1/2-4 years were as a shooting guard:bbanana:


You'd have to prove that to me,(not saying that you can't). I've always known him as a SG


----------



## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

Kidd hasn't been that great, he's the same player he was since he entered the league, solid defender, not very quick compared to other PG. Good rebounder, and good passer. Questionable jump shot, can score going to hole for layup.

he's a top PG in the league, but Payton has better D, better offensive game other then passing ability; but payton still does solid job of passing, and can carry his team on his back, even w/o any stars around him. 

As for nash, he's not that much of a defensive liability currently. he's fast and can keep up w/ most PG in the league, which is something kidd can't do. He's a little short but if a PG posts up, a big man will probably come and swat it anyways.

As for kidd being the greatest, when did this happen? Last year. I don't remember ANYONE saying he's the best, or even close to the best pg in the league before that.


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

Wouldn't All-NBA first team be considered "the best"?


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> Wouldn't All-NBA first team be considered "the best"?


Bingo!!!!!!

Kidd is the best point guard in the NBA. Some mavs fans are just a little excited since the team is doing so well.


----------



## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KennethTo</b>!
> Kidd hasn't been that great, he's the same player he was since he entered the league, solid defender, not very quick compared to other PG.


His speed is deceptive... 

-Petey


----------



## wizard21 (Nov 19, 2002)

Top 5 Point Guards.

1. Gary Payton. A better scorer than Kidd, and still better defensively. Plus still gets 8-10 apg a year on a worse offensive team than Jason Kidd. Great leader.

2. Jason Kidd. Also a great leader, and a fantastic point guard, but just not as good as Gary Payton offensively.

3. Andre Miller. Led the league in assists playing for Cleveland. Needs better range on his J to become more of a threat.

4. Baron Davis. Triple-double threat and is incredibly quick on the break. Showed his ability when McGrady called him out last year.

5. Steve Francis. Is only a point guard because of his height. Very good offensively, but tends to hog the ball too much, such as when Yao was hot against the Mavs.

What about young NBA TRUE point guard prospects. I'm not talkin bout the likes of Wagner and Steph. Tony Parker and Jamaal Tinsley are both good, young true points. Miller will be the best of the true PG bunch. And how good is TJ Ford? When he plays healthy this year, he'll be good enough to come out.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wizard21</b>!
> Top 5 Point Guards.
> 
> 1. Gary Payton. A better scorer than Kidd, and still better defensively. Plus still gets 8-10 apg a year on a worse offensive team than Jason Kidd. Great leader.


are the sonics really a worse offensive team than the nets, or are the nets a better offensive team because of Jason Kidd?


----------



## wizard21 (Nov 19, 2002)

I agree with you that Kidd makes them better, but not THAT much better. Kidd has Kittles and Harris too shoot for him, plus Jefferson to knock down the midrange J and run with JKidd and KMart. And Mutombo to... well never mind. He's also got Rodney Rogers. It is a real close call between GP and JKidd, but GP's extra scoring makes him the better PG in my view.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

it is real close. I'm a GP fan, but its hard for me to say that he is the better PG. I think Kidd is barely better than GP. Year before last the nets were awful and look what Kidd did. GP has a nice group of ballers around him too. Barry is one of the leagues better well rounded players. R. Lewis is a hecht of an athelete. The two guys from over seas can shoot extremely well for big men. and the bench isn't bad either. 

I really wanted to see GP get out of Seattle last year. if he could have switched conferences maybe I'd give him the edge. we'll see what happens next year.


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

Looks like Im not that crazy. ESPN has Nash as the 2nd best point gaurd in the league behind Kidd.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> Looks like Im not that crazy. ESPN has Nash as the 2nd best point gaurd in the league behind Kidd.



I agree after watching Nash's play this season, but ESPN holds no weight with me anymore:upset:


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> I agree after watching Nash's play this season, but ESPN holds no weight with me anymore:upset:


Why?


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dragnsmke1</b>!
> 
> 
> Why?


As a sports reporting news service. They show highlights of what they want. They highlight the weaknesses of particular players to make it seem to the public like some players are less than others. They dont tell the whole story. So on and so on


----------



## INTELLECT (Nov 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> Wouldn't All-NBA first team be considered "the best"?


well nash was chosen all nba THIRD TEAM last year so that'd make him the third best pg in the league right? hmmmmmm....


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> As a sports reporting news service. They show highlights of what they want. They highlight the weaknesses of particular players to make it seem to the public like some players are less than others. They dont tell the whole story. So on and so on


I agree that was one of my arguements ealier in this thread.


----------

