# Carmelo for Oden? No.



## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

Just listened to the new draftexpress podcast. Carmelo was offered to Portland for the #1 pick. Portland said no thanks.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Well, you don't get what you don't ask for.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I'll take him for the 9th pick


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Hustle said:


> Just listened to the new draftexpress podcast. Carmelo was offered to Portland for the #1 pick. Portland said no thanks.


No **** they said no.

"Hey, Portland: We've got this horribly overhyped and overrated headcase who really isn't any kind of a meaningful difference maker in the NBA. And we've maxed him out in $$ and years. How about you take him and give us one of the top 10 most dominant big man prospects in the history of the NBA? Huh? Please?"


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I wonder if Lebron for Oden would happen - hypothetically.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

theanimal23 said:


> I wonder if Lebron for Oden would happen - hypothetically.




Our GM has said....whether he's joking or not I don't know....that the only player he would trade the pick for is Lebron. 

Then again he also said if a team offered 3 superstars all in their early 20's he would consider that as well.


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

mediocre man said:


> Our GM has said....whether he's joking or not I don't know....that the only player he would trade the pick for is Lebron.
> 
> Then again he also said if a team offered 3 superstars all in their early 20's he would consider that as well.


To a Portland fan i pose this question to you. Would you trade the no.1 pick(Oden) for Dwight Howard?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

mediocre man said:


> Our GM has said....whether he's joking or not I don't know....that the only player he would trade the pick for is Lebron.


What about Hinrich?


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Oden's going to be very good, but I love how everyone has already annoited him the second coming of wilt chaimberlain.


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

The Krakken said:


> Oden's going to be very good, but I love how everyone has already annoited him the second coming of wilt chaimberlain.


I think they are comparing him more to Bill Russell than any other player because of his defensive skills. But other than that the only other similarity is the way they look...


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

*Carmelo was offered to Portland for the no.1...*

and portland kindly said "NO thanks" .. interesting....


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

*Re: Carmelo was offered to Portland for the no.1...*

Melo for Miles and #1?


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

*Re: Carmelo was offered to Portland for the no.1...*

Over here.


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## Foulzilla (Jan 11, 2005)

kulaz3000 said:


> To a Portland fan i pose this question to you. Would you trade the no.1 pick(Oden) for Dwight Howard?


While I am not that Portland fan, as a Portland fan I personally wouldn't. I honestly think the only single player I would want to trade him for is Lebron.

I like Dwight a lot. I think he'll be real good, I just think Oden will be better.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

Make those offers to Seattle, my guess is they'd take Howard and possibly several other players or combinations of players.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

I'd take Melo and Camby.

Oden/Miles/Zack for Melo/Camby/Blake


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

Foulzilla said:


> While I am not that Portland fan, as a Portland fan I personally wouldn't. I honestly think the only single player I would want to trade him for is Lebron.
> 
> I like Dwight a lot. I think he'll be real good, I just think Oden will be better.


Really? I really think whenever the draft comes to town, there is always that hype that overrides a persons common sense. Im not saying it makes us idiots, because it happens to everyone including myself. But i would make that trade in a heart beat, since Howard is still very young, the same position and is obviously PROVEN already at a young age, where as Oden is not. Both great prospects regardless of how you put it but i would have loved if Oden was in the east just from the stand point of the east having two power-house centers going at each other for a decade. That would have been a great rivalry..


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## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

I would trade Oden for Howard, only because his further along and not that much older. I'd put them on par as far as potential goes. If I had to choose I'd pick Howard. If they were both in the same draft year I couldn't split them though. Howard is a physically gifted as Oden, if not more so.


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## Deng101 (Jan 13, 2005)

Wow, if that was the deal I dont know how you say no. Portlands biggest hole right now is the SF spot which is what Carmelo is. Not too mention Carmelo is a proven star can score 25-30 points a night and is still very young. Oden you have no clue how good he will be, he might be just a better Ben Wallace that can avg. 10-12 points a game....


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## soonerterp (Nov 13, 2005)

Ballscientist said:


> I'd take Melo and Camby.
> 
> Oden/Miles/Zack for Melo/Camby/Blake


Unless they do sign and trade, Blake can't be involved ... he's a UFA and some team is probably going to use some of their MLE on him.

To the question at hand, HELL NO I'd keep the No. 1 pick and spend it on Oden.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Oden is a franchise changing center and Carmelo is a wing player. This is the same reason you don't draft Durant over Oden. In the 2010 decade and beyond, it's going to be Oden-led teams winning the West, unless Amare keeps improving.


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## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

HKF said:


> Oden is a franchise changing center and Carmelo is a wing player. This is the same reason you don't draft Durant over Oden. In the 2010 decade and beyond, it's going to be Oden-led teams winning the West, unless Amare keeps improving.


Just to broaden your point a little. From here to around 2010-12 duncan will still be dominate and then Oden will take over. So it's likely we're still going to need to continue with a big dominate centre if we make the finals. 

We've definitely moved passed the building a play off team stage in my mind, we need to build a contender now. Our pick this year could be a complete bust but we'd still a play off team for the forseeable future.

To me Howard, Amare, Duncan and Oden are guys we really have to focus on having someone to counter(i.e a half decent match up for them) Even solid bigs like Gooden are currently a handful for us.

Paxson next challenge in my mind is finding the piece/pieces that would allow us to contend. We've acquired the assets, mainly through sucking for quite a number of years.


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## Deng101 (Jan 13, 2005)

Oden is still unproven, Carmelo is.... its a big difference than the Durant vs Oden comparisons. Not 2 mention the Trailblazers already have a pretty good front court with Aldridge and Randolph. If im the GM i make the trade for Carmelo. You than have 4 guys on your team that could avg. 15 plus. Hell Jack is a pretty good PG too you could actually have the whole starting 5 all avg. 15 plus.


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## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

Chris Richard is top three in standing reach and wing span. He played in a good system and was behind good players (his probably under hyped). I'd take a punt on him. 252 pounds.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Yes, I would probably take Howard for Oden......Maybe. Only because I would be scared to death to give up Oden


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

People are underestimating Oden a lot. Oden's freshmen offensive statistics in college are similar to Shaq's freshman year with better defense. When you think about the fact that he was playing mostly with his weak hand during that year and was not 100% even at the championship game (where he had 26 points and double digits in rebounds)...

Anthony is great, Howard is great - but Oden's potential is so high that you just have to roll the dice on him. You either live in the penthouse or the outhouse.

Carmelo is not a good defensive player, if you look at the Nuggets - they had a PG that is only slightly worse than Jack, AI is a better offensive machine than Roy at this point in his career and Camby/Nene vs. Randolph/Aldridge - probably a better offense for Zach/Aldridge vs. better defense for Camby/Nene.

It is unclear that Carmelo on the Portland roster is any better than Denver's roster - and Denver was bounced out of the first round in the western conference playoffs.

If Oden lives to be "only" as good as Robinson (less than what his potential is, IMHO) - a lineup of Jack/Roy/SF for Randolph/Aldridge/Oden is better than Jack/Roy/Carmelo/Randolph/Aldridge.

Portland did the right thing.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Deng101 said:


> Oden is still unproven, Carmelo is....


. . . . proven to be a no-defense playing, over-rated, attitude problem, overpaid, glorified role-player. 

If Portland made that trade, it would become legendary among draft day debacles when Denver is contending for Championships in 7 years and 'Melo has since been traded two more times for decreasing value with each transaction.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> . . . . proven to be a no-defense playing, over-rated, attitude problem, overpaid, glorified role-player.
> 
> If Portland made that trade, it would become legendary among draft day debacles when Denver is contending for Championships in 7 years and 'Melo has since been traded two more times for decreasing value with each transaction.


LOL! :laugh:

You really REALLY don't like Melo......:laugh::lol:


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

HKF said:


> Oden is a franchise changing center and Carmelo is a wing player. This is the same reason you don't draft Durant over Oden. In the 2010 decade and beyond, it's going to be Oden-led teams winning the West, unless Amare keeps improving.


Oden is only one player and it take more than one great player to win, much less compete for a championship.

However, Portand has three potentially great young players now. That's enough to win consistently and compete for championships. The only thing that could go wrong is that they get infected by whatever disease Zach Randolf has. It's not impossible -- Portland teams in the early 1990s (Duckworth days) had great players who just never learned to play together on a consistent basis. Management should be taking a hard look at their coaching staff about now.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

Oden for Melo is a no-brainer. 

Oden for Howard is almost a wash, IMO. If they were both the same age, both played college ball in their freshman year, I think the two would have had very similar results, albeit in a different fashion. You could almost flip a coin. 

I think Oden's career trajectory will look very similar to Dwight's his first 3 years in the league, except he'll have the benefit of playing on a team that had more talent to start out with, and playing with a coach/GM that aren't grossly incompetent.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

Also, I think it's creepy how Oden and Russell don't look that far apart in age.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

rosenthall said:


> Oden for Melo is a no-brainer.
> 
> Oden for Howard is almost a wash, IMO. If they were both the same age, both played college ball in their freshman year, I think the two would have had very similar results, albeit in a different fashion. You could almost flip a coin.
> 
> I think Oden's career trajectory will look very similar to Dwight's his first 3 years in the league, except he'll have the benefit of playing on a team that had more talent to start out with, and playing with a coach/GM that aren't grossly incompetent.



He'll be a more efficient scorer from the word go though, simply by virtue of the fact that hes a MUCH MUCH better free throw shooter.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

The Krakken said:


> LOL! :laugh:
> 
> You really REALLY don't like Melo......:laugh::lol:


Its not that I don't like him, its that I think he's about as overrated as they come. He's the modern day version of Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury or Big Dog and his career arc will resemble that of those "superstars". I think he'll have a better career than those guys, but not by a whole lot. And he won't ever accomplish anything of note as a centerpiece and will ended up being traded multiple times in his career. 

You don't trade a guy like that - or even a guy a little bit better than that giving him the benefit of the doubt - for a prospect like Oden. Never, ever, ever.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Oden played with one hand, had great combine numbers, and demonstrates good fundamentals. He has a long way to go, especially in terms of learning how to be a dominant rebounder in the League, but I think he'll be one of the best centers of this generation.

But let's not sell Carmelo too short here. I know everyone thinks he's overhyped, but he led the league in scoring for a while. He's a consistent performer and was one of the only bright spots on Team USA last summer. He's made several clutch shots and over a period of a few months, he was considered one of the hottest clutch players in the league. I can't believe he still gets that baby-Glenn Robinson jawn.

He's not LeBron, fine, and he's not Wade either, but he deserves to be considered one of the best pure small forwards in this league. That won't get you Oden, I agree, but all the hating isn't necessary.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Carmelo is still better than any player the Bulls have and if he played in the East, he would get further in the playoffs as well. The Bulls would have been smacked around by the Spurs or the Suns as well, so I am not sure where the hate for Melo comes from.

I still would not trade Oden for Melo, because at the end of the day making the playoffs is cool, but winning championships is the goal. Oden is the centerpiece of a championship team in the future and that's what you want.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

What Carmello won't do IMO is lead his team to the finals. That's what he lacks.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Showtyme said:


> But let's not sell Carmelo too short here. I know everyone thinks he's overhyped, but he led the league in scoring for a while. He's a consistent performer and was one of the only bright spots on Team USA last summer. He's made several clutch shots and over a period of a few months, he was considered one of the hottest clutch players in the league. I can't believe he still gets that baby-Glenn Robinson jawn.
> 
> He's not LeBron, fine, and he's not Wade either, but he deserves to be considered one of the best pure small forwards in this league. That won't get you Oden, I agree, but all the hating isn't necessary.


(1) I don't know hardly anyone that shares my opinion of 'Melo (this thread is proof). To be overhyped, you have to be hyped to begin with. So I don't think its accurate to say a lot of people think he's overhyped.

(2) He's excellent at accumulating points in a basketball game. No doubt about it.

(3) He's already a better scorer than Glenn Robinson ever was. But I think he's the same "type" of player as it pertains to true substance.

(4) I don't evaluate him based on his relative standing to LeBron or Wade, I evaluate him based on his game and attitude. 

(5) Small Forward Players/Prospects I'd take over 'Melo if I was forming *a team *(in no particular order):
Durant
Marion
Deng
LeBron
J. Howard
Prince
Jefferson (if healthy)
Butler
Kirilenko (but only if he rebounds from this wierd and poor season he just had)

You also have guys like Artest, J. Smith and Wallace that are good offensively and miles ahead of Melo on the defensive end (though I'd take Melo - I'm just saying its close). 

Melo is good and talented. But unless he figures out how to really win and lead a team, and play defense, he'll be just another Steve Francis. Seriously, that Nuggets team is LOADED. If Melo were legit, instead of style over substance, they'd do something in the playoffs. Maybe he'll figure it out, but I doubt it.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

mediocre man said:


> What Carmello won't do IMO is lead his team to the finals. That's what he lacks.


Not many wing players can. Heck the only reason why Lebron can do it right now, is because the East is godawful.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

And do me a personal favor, fellas. I'd prefer if my analysis weren't referred to as "hate". To me, that term is applied to fans who know that a player is actually awesome but refuse to acknowledge it due to some irrational jealousy or personal loathing (i.e., "hating" on Kobe even though he's probably the best player on the planet). 

I simply don't think Melo is anywhere near as good as advertised and I suspect the passage of time, and 4 different jerseys, will prove me right.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> (1) I don't know hardly anyone that shares my opinion of 'Melo (this thread is proof). To be overhyped, you have to be hyped to begin with. So I don't think its accurate to say a lot of people think he's overhyped.
> 
> (2) He's excellent at accumulating points in a basketball game. No doubt about it.
> 
> ...


All good points, as always. And as always, I respect your opinion and respect the fact that you name it as such. A lot of petty fighting on this board could be avoided by many of our more sensitive posters if we all remembered that everything is an opinion.

And for the most part, I'll agree with you. And I hope you don't take my reference to "hating" too personally. I think that a lot of the anti-Melo sentiment is just a matter of some people who are spiting what is popular. You can see this in this thread, I think. If I clumsily grouped the anti-Melo camp together, my bad.

For counterpoints, though:

1. We haven't seen Melo's best basketball yet. He's a 4-year NBA vet that just turned 23 years old. He's shown a trend of improvement and has a team that both puts a heavy weight on his shoulders AND challenges him to be The Guy. Not as an excuse for his immaturity and some of his off-court stuff, but that's not an easy circumstance for anyone between the ages of 20 and 23, most of the time with no other veteran presence in the locker room. LeBron is unnaturally mature and Wade has always been totally surrounded with a host of vets, at least some of which have served to lead and take the pressure off of him.

2. Fault him for not getting past the first round, and yes, by comparison, Wade and LeBron have both been to the Finals. But at least he's BEEN to the playoffs every single year, and in the Western Conference. The Nuggets were pretty terrible before he got there; they're pretty dangerous now. Melo may not have elevated his team to greatness, but he's a positive contributor as far as talent goes.

3. Maybe he has a Big Dog style of play, but he's got the potential to be a better defender and is a far superior athlete. Melo is blessed with a nice mid-range jumper and can play a high post, just like Glenn, but Melo is much more of a slasher and likes to finish around the hoop much more.

4. Purely a difference in opinion, but I wouldn't take 50% of those SF's on your list over Melo. This may stem from the fact that the guys on the bottom half of the list are complementary, and maybe your team concept has the SF as the uber-complementary player. I don't think it needs to be that way. But I'd take Carmelo Anthony over a healthy R-Jeff, Caron, and the 2005 Kirilenko any day of the week.

I fear for Carmelo's future, simply because of the presence of Allen Iverson, but if someone can get AI to play like a normal SG and trust his teammates, the team is ready to take on anyone. Camby just had a career year as DPOY, getting Nene or K-Mart back is essential, and they need a trade to get some positive karma on the team. 

But Carmelo is as talented as any small forward in the league. Turning him down for Greg Oden is an easy call to make, sure, but I'd say that there's a possibilty for time to actually prove the Blazers very wrong.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> And for the most part, I'll agree with you. And I hope you don't take my reference to "hating" too personally. I think that a lot of the anti-Melo sentiment is just a matter of some people who are spiting what is popular. You can see this in this thread, I think. If I clumsily grouped the anti-Melo camp together, my bad.


I didn't mean it that way. I just don't like that term in general, whether applied to me or whoever. It suggests that someone is just making a blanket statement based on spite rather than actually forming a real opinion. 



> 1. We haven't seen Melo's best basketball yet.


Sadly, I think we may have. Iverson's presence will dampen Melo's dramatic scoring outputs and, in my opinion, we will begin to see his attitude deteriorate even further as a result. Next year will be Melo's most important year in taking a permanent step fowards or backwards, I think. 



> Fault him for not getting past the first round, and yes, by comparison, Wade and LeBron have both been to the Finals. But at least he's BEEN to the playoffs every single year, and in the Western Conference. The Nuggets were pretty terrible before he got there; they're pretty dangerous now. Melo may not have elevated his team to greatness, but he's a positive contributor as far as talent goes.


I think its entirely possible that if you substituted James Posey for Carmelo on that stacked team, it would still be good enough to earn a quick first round exit from the playoffs.



> Maybe he has a Big Dog style of play, but he's got the potential to be a better defender and is a far superior athlete. Melo is blessed with a nice mid-range jumper and can play a high post, just like Glenn, but Melo is much more of a slasher and likes to finish around the hoop much more.


I'm referring more to the general idea that he's a score whore and is disinterested to his team's detriment on the defensive end. And his attitude in general just seems to be selfishly stinky.



> Purely a difference in opinion, but I wouldn't take 50% of those SF's on your list over Melo. This may stem from the fact that the guys on the bottom half of the list are complementary, and maybe your team concept has the SF as the uber-complementary player. I don't think it needs to be that way. But I'd take Carmelo Anthony over a healthy R-Jeff, Caron, and the 2005 Kirilenko any day of the week.


I would expect very few people to disagree with you on that. 



> But Carmelo is as talented as any small forward in the league.


You'll get no argument from me on that front. In fact, I'd say he's probably *the most *talented except for LeBron (and perhaps Marion).


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

rosenthall said:


> Oden for Melo is a no-brainer.
> 
> Oden for Howard is almost a wash, IMO. If they were both the same age, both played college ball in their freshman year, I think the two would have had very similar results, albeit in a different fashion. You could almost flip a coin.
> 
> I think Oden's career trajectory will look very similar to Dwight's his first 3 years in the league, except he'll have the benefit of playing on a team that had more talent to start out with, and playing with a coach/GM that aren't grossly incompetent.


:lol: :lol: 

This has to be on of the most uniformed posts I have ever seen. A "no brainer.." for Melo...:lol: 

Much much easier to get a good SF then it is to get a good center....how many of the last 10 championships have been won by teams with a dominant center? 

Unless it's Jordan, a dominant center is much more likely to win you a title then a dominant SF or SG. And Melo surely ain't no Jordan. 

fyi...Oden will dominate D. Howard by 2010.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

sa1177 said:


> :lol: :lol:
> 
> This has to be on of the most uniformed posts I have ever seen. A "no brainer.." for Melo...:lol:
> 
> ...


I'm about 99% positive rosenthall meant no brainer in that it's a no brainer non-trade.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Sadly, I think we may have. Iverson's presence will dampen Melo's dramatic scoring outputs and, in my opinion, we will begin to see his attitude deteriorate even further as a result. Next year will be Melo's most important year in taking a permanent step fowards or backwards, I think.





> I think its entirely possible that if you substituted James Posey for Carmelo on that stacked team, it would still be good enough to earn a quick first round exit from the playoffs.


The Nugs got GOOD as soon as Anthony stepped foot on the team. You don't see rags-to-playoffs in the NBA very often, and certainly not in the West. And it was mostly because of him. Adding Camby and Miller helped, of course, but the team went from scoring 84.2 ppg to scoring 97.2. Voshon Lenard had a stellar season that year (and killed the Bulls on a regular basis, strangely), but there's no way James Posey would have gotten them into the playoffs. I'll never believe it for a second.

The same goes for the next season, 04-05. They still pushed into the first round, with an injured Nene and missing Camby for much of the season. Again, swapping Anthony for Posey would not have gotten them there. There are more talented teams in the West that didn't make the playoffs altogether than a team of Dre Miller, James Posey, Kenyon Martin and Marcus Camby.

Say what you want about Melo's struggles with the team, and they've obviously gotten some help from AI and others, but this is Carmelo's team. Next season, as you say, will prove that, or be a messy self-destructive row.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> The Nugs got GOOD as soon as Anthony stepped foot on the team. You don't see rags-to-playoffs in the NBA very often, and certainly not in the West. And it was mostly because of him. Adding Camby and Miller helped, of course, but the team went from scoring 84.2 ppg to scoring 97.2. Voshon Lenard had a stellar season that year (and killed the Bulls on a regular basis, strangely), but there's no way James Posey would have gotten them into the playoffs. I'll never believe it for a second.


I agree with you 100%. I probably wasn't clear. I was referring to the current team that got ousted in the first round this year. The team with Iverson, Camby, Nene, Blake, Melo. I think if you put Posey in Melo's place on THAT team, that it still makes the playoffs and promptly gets eliminated. 

No doubt Melo's presence on a bad team is going to make it better. But his game, in my opinion, is of the type that has a relatively low ceiling in ascending to legitimate, consistent contention unless he makes some major changes or is forced to a secondary role. 



> The same goes for the next season, 04-05. They still pushed into the first round, with an injured Nene and missing Camby for much of the season. Again, swapping Anthony for Posey would not have gotten them there. There are more talented teams in the West that didn't make the playoffs altogether than a team of Dre Miller, James Posey, Kenyon Martin and Marcus Camby.


Agree again. See above.



> Say what you want about Melo's struggles with the team, and they've obviously gotten some help from AI and others, but this is Carmelo's team. Next season, as you say, will prove that, or be a messy self-destructive row.


I know its his team. And their underachievement in the face of how loaded they are is part of the basis for my opinion. Next year is huge for him (and for my opinion of him).


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

sa1177 said:


> :lol: :lol:
> 
> fyi...Oden will dominate D. Howard by 2010.


You live in Oregon, therefore your opinion isn't valid. 

And for the record, Detroit won without a dominant big man, and so Shaq was HARDLY dominant last year for Miami.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

Showtyme said:


> The Nugs got GOOD as soon as Anthony stepped foot on the team. You don't see rags-to-playoffs in the NBA very often, and certainly not in the West. And it was mostly because of him. Adding Camby and Miller helped, of course, but the team went from scoring 84.2 ppg to scoring 97.2. Voshon Lenard had a stellar season that year (and killed the Bulls on a regular basis, strangely), but there's no way James Posey would have gotten them into the playoffs. I'll never believe it for a second.
> 
> The same goes for the next season, 04-05. They still pushed into the first round, with an injured Nene and missing Camby for much of the season. Again, swapping Anthony for Posey would not have gotten them there. There are more talented teams in the West that didn't make the playoffs altogether than a team of Dre Miller, James Posey, Kenyon Martin and Marcus Camby.
> 
> Say what you want about Melo's struggles with the team, and they've obviously gotten some help from AI and others, but this is Carmelo's team. Next season, as you say, will prove that, or be a messy self-destructive row.


Actually, I think your own post contains the answer you seek.

Marcus Camby and Andre Miller added to that team are at least as responsible for the Nuggets quick turnaround as adding a primary scorer for "nothing" (out of the draft, not a trade).

Andre Miller is a solid, underappreciated point. Has been so most of his career. Are there better points? You bet. About a dozen, give or take. But if you are one of the teams on the outside looking in, and you add Andre at the point as a free agent, that will have a big impact on your team's ability to compete.

Marcus Camby is one of the most underrated players today. He makes a huge impact on the game, and when he is healthy (a big if, and his biggest problem, 29 games the year before, 72 games Carmelo's rookie year) his teams win more often than not. Funny that.

Carmelo rolls into town. Gets all the hype. Takes all the shots. And gets all the credit for the turnaround.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

To add to the Carmelo debate, check out this list from the Wages of Wins folks.

http://www.wagesofwins.com/Top10PerNBA.html

They have some nutty system where they attempt to crunch a whole bunch of nubmers to come up with a number of how impactful a player has been, in this case for last season, or how much "credit" they deserve as an individual player for the team's success, or "wins".

This list is the top 10% (top 46) of players in their ranking.

Some of the names are what you expect, all-stars. Some are surprises - "hustle" players/defenders.

Don't get all excited, it is just another way to look at things. It can make you think. 

You do have to remember that players have roles. Teams need guys that shoot like Carmelo. Teams need guys that draw attention like Carmelo. Teams need a face of the franchise. You can't make up a team full of only defender/role player types, no matter how high they rank on a system like this.

But, look real hard for Carmelo's name on this list. See it? I see Camby and Miller.

I do see Ben Wallace, Luol Deng and Kirk Hinrich. Which is interesting, as Deng and Hinrich are the two guys I want on my team: Hinrich-Roy-Deng-Aldridge-Oden. he he. How was it that Chicago won games without a "superstar" like a Carmelo? Because they 3 players that make a large impact on the game, regardless of the hype or their ppg numbers.

So, um, yeah, no way Carmelo for Oden.

But, try this Chicago fans: would you trade Hinrich and Deng for Carmelo?


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## SodaPopinski (Aug 10, 2004)

The Krakken said:


> You live in Oregon, therefore your opinion isn't valid.


... says the guy who lives in a state that still flies the confederate flag above its capitol building.

-Pop


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Masbee said:


> But, try this Chicago fans: would you trade Hinrich and Deng for Carmelo?


I wouldn't, but I would expect many Chicago fans would.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

Masbee said:


> But, try this Chicago fans: would you trade Hinrich and Deng for Carmelo?


i'd pass on this as well.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Masbee said:


> But, try this Chicago fans: would you trade Hinrich and Deng for Carmelo?


Not only wouldn't I trade them both for Melo, I wouldn't trade either for him. Seriously.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Ok, so I am assuming that most bulls fans if the Bulls had the #1 pick and no SF would take Carmelo Anthony for Greg Oden.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Schilly said:


> Ok, so I am assuming that most bulls fans if the Bulls had the #1 pick and no SF would take Carmelo Anthony for Greg Oden.


Huh??? Not one person in this thread said they would take Melo for the #1.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Schilly said:


> Ok, so I am assuming that most bulls fans if the Bulls had the #1 pick and no SF would take Carmelo Anthony for Greg Oden.


Why would you assume that? It appears that the consensus is that Portland's decision to reject the trade proposal was a good one. 

Its just that most Bulls fans don't agree with more extreme opinions - like mine - that Melo simply isn't really all that significant of a player to begin with.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

I know, there were a couple people banking the Melo is a prieven this or that how do you not take Melo for Oden jive, early on. I was being sarcastic.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

I'd trade Hinrich for Melo, I think. I don't think I'd trade Hinrich and Deng, nor even just Deng by himself, mainly because I think Deng is probably like 85% of Melo's offensive talent with 200% of his defensive talent, and this team's style is predicated on defense.

I know I underrate Hinrich a lot too, and he's proven his worth recently, but I think there's also been a big emergence of good point guards in the league. Check it out:

Star to superstar-level PG's:

Kidd (has years left at nearly the top of his game, IMO)
Nash (among the best 3 PG's of my lifetime so far)
Billups (quintessential vet, makes very few mistakes, lots of years left in him too)
Deron (greatness in the making)
C. Paul (ready to take that next leap into all-out stardom)
Kirk Hinrich (deserves to be called a star, Team USA contributor and rocksteady heady play, possibly the best PG defender in the league)
Baron Davis (finally coming into his prime, somewhat injury-free, and defensively surprising solid)
Ray Felton (tons of talent, coming out much more, ready to run a team big-time)
Andre Miller (yes, underrated as someone says, but I've always felt he's learned to truly make his teammates better)

Here's guys on the brink of becoming star PG's, or are a tier below that "star" level:

Jameer Nelson (a real serious point guard)
T.J. Ford (wish he could just stay healthy, definitely a CP-lite type of player)
Mike Bibby (dropped off in recent years but his whole team has problems)
Jarrett Jack (exceptionally solid, will be greatly behooved by an exciting supporting cast)
Jason Terry (doesn't get respect for what he does)

I'm not saying that there's guys that can do what Hinrich does for us, but I'm saying that there are a lot of good point guards out there, many of whom I'd feel very comfortable plugging in for Kirk. Not to mention bright prospects in Conley and Law, that gives almost 2/3rds of the Association very good to superstar-level point guards.

Now, name the small forwards in this league that can do what Carmelo does, or even come close. Two somewhat true SF's come to mind: LeBron, and Pierce. 

I'd trade Kirk for Melo almost right away, and that's not a slight to Kirk.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Showtyme said:


> I'd trade Hinrich for Melo, I think. I don't think I'd trade Hinrich and Deng, nor even just Deng by himself, mainly because I think Deng is probably like 85% of Melo's offensive talent with 200% of his defensive talent, and this team's style is predicated on defense.
> 
> I know I underrate Hinrich a lot too, and he's proven his worth recently, but I think there's also been a big emergence of good point guards in the league. Check it out:
> 
> ...


Do you mean in a vacuum? Or do you mean in reality? Because if you trade Hinrich only, then you have Deng, Melo, Nocioni, and Thomas on the same team.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Masbee said:


> But, try this Chicago fans: would you trade Hinrich and Deng for Carmelo?


I probably wouldn't give up either one of them for Carmelo straight up.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

SodaPopinski said:


> ... says the guy who lives in a state that still flies the confederate flag above its capitol building.
> 
> -Pop


Which has nothing to do with me. Nice try though. My point was to take potshots at your location. Live wherever the hell you want to. But you are a Portland Fan who lives in Oregon. Don't expect to come in here and pass off your opinion as the objective in the slightest. Especially when you say things like Oden will DOMINATE D. Howard in 3 years. Ridiculous.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

If I'm Portland, no way in hell do I trade Oden for Howard. Howard is a nice player but Oden is projecting out a lot higher ceiling IMHO.

Also, can I trade Hinrich and Deng for Melo and Gasol. I would have to think long and hard about that one.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

Started reading this thread. Made my head hurt. I HATE when that happens so I stopped. As nearly as I can tell, it started with whether you'd trade the most promising center prospect in a decade or so for Carmelo Anthony and has degenerated into whether you'd trade Hinrich for Anthony. When it gets to Duhon for Anthony, wake me up.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

johnston797 said:


> Howard is a nice player


Matt Carroll and Boobie Gibson are "nice players". Dwight Howard is the most dominant big man in the Eastern Conference and probably will continue to be for the next decade.


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## ChadWick (Jun 26, 2006)

kulaz3000 said:


> To a Portland fan i pose this question to you. Would you trade the no.1 pick(Oden) for Dwight Howard?



*ABSOLUTELY NOT*

Dwight Howard is a young domiant all-around BEAST down-low, but Oden is just about the same, and 19! Now I would consider it, because Dwight is would have a Championship if he had a good team!! I would definently consider it..So I actually don't know if I would...Dwight threw down, o think it was 275 or 175 Dunks in the regular season this year! So he is dominant down-low and a great powerful dunker. He also isn't afraid to get physical


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

From what I have seen of D-Howard and Oden - it seems that Oden might be a better defensive player and could turn to be just as dominant on the Offense. With this in mind and with Oden's younger age - it just makes sense to take a flyer on Oden vs. Howard. It is impossible to say if he will be as good as Howard or better - but it is worth the risk.


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