# Darko still looking bad...



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Maxiell is looking good though.

http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1037

I tried to copy and paste, but it wasn't letting me. Jason Maxiell will be an outstanding fit for the Pistons. As for Darko, you can't unteach a guy being soft as butter. Getting your shot packed by Marcus Haislip = not good. :nonono:


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## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

Yes indeed. I can't believe people still have faith in this guy.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

> Jonathan Givony
> 
> Darko Milicic] Started the game a little slowly, backed down Schenscher and then tried to get cute with a hook shot instead of throwing it down. He was stuffed by Marcus Haislip. After that he had a wide open look from 18 feet out and he hesitated and then turned it over on the ensuing pass. Other then that he showed a lot of potential in a lot of areas, but mentally he just can’t put it together. His feet are very quick on defense, his hands are great in the post, he has a beautiful hook shot, can stroke the 18 footer, has nice footwork and great body control to get his man off balance and get his shot off in the paint. The biggest problem here is that he just won’t take the ball strong up at the hoop and finish with authority, preferring to get cute and fade away everytime instead. Darko put a lot more effort in today, though, hitting the deck twice for a loose ball and calling for the ball. You can tell with the passes he makes and the way he moves off the ball that he really knows how to play and has some serious talent, he just needs someone to believe in him and bring it out out of him now.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't call that bad. I haven't given up on him yet.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

So, he was blocked once? Wow. It's not the end of his career no matter who it is. And expecting him play great right away when he hasn't played much thanks to LB is putting expectations high. Even if he was drafted 2nd. No wonder why people make him to be a bust. The Kid just needs to be given a break. He's just what, 20 yrs old? This whole thing about him has gotten old.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

kamego said:


> I wouldn't call that bad. I haven't given up on him yet.


You didn't read that as being an apologist for him stinking up the court? I sure as heck did. They tried their hardest not to be critical of his poor play.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

HKF said:


> You didn't read that as being an apologist for him stinking up the court? I sure as heck did. They tried their hardest not to be critical of his poor play.



I took the comments to mean he played better after the first few minutes....

Remember the Detroit coach said he played "great in the first two games".... I don't see why people not at the game are coming down on him? Box scores don't mean everything in the summer league....


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## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

I guess I should throw away my "Darko 2006 MVP" t-shirt then...

EDIT: D'oh. You knew what I meant kamego


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

Final stat line?


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

Nash won the 2005 award already lol I would be shocked to see Darko win the revote


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

dissonance19 said:


> So, he was blocked once? Wow. It's not the end of his career no matter who it is. And expecting him play great right away when he hasn't played much is putting expectations high. Even if he was drafted 2nd. No wonder why people make him to be a bust. The Kid just needs to be given a break. This whole thing about him has gotten old.


The problem is Jason Maxiell is a 6'6 PF and he's going to end up playing more than Darko next year. Simply because he's more aggressive. That says a lot.

Reading Mark Stein's article where Dave Hanners said that Darko is the best shooting, passing, dribbling 7'0 his age was hilarious. What he also failed to mention is that Darko is soft, weak rebounding and can't score in the paint. So he can pass from 20 feet away from the rim, big deal. So he can shoot, big deal. He can't shoot like Dirk, so he's going to have to spend most of his career in the paint, where even after two years of what they call "development," he is still unconfident under the paint. 

Although they did say look how his body has improved. He is Skita Redux and they are going to hold out for as long as they can before declaring him a failed mission. Just look at Washington.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

I've always tried to support him, but if he doesn't show something this season - especially if Larry Brown isn't coaching - then I'm just going to have to give up.

All the Darko backers - me included - are running out of excuses.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

HKF said:


> The problem is Jason Maxiell is a 6'6 PF and he's going to end up playing more than Darko next year. Simply because he's more aggressive. That says a lot.
> 
> Reading Mark Stein's article where Dave Hanners said that Darko is the best shooting, passing, dribbling 7'0 his age was hilarious. What he also failed to mention is that Darko is soft, weak rebounding and can't score in the paint. So he can pass from 20 feet away from the rim, big deal. So he can shoot, big deal. He can't shoot like Dirk, so he's going to have to spend most of his career in the paint, where even after two years of what they call "development," he is still unconfident under the paint.
> 
> Although they did say look how his body has improved. He is Skita Redux and they are going to hold out for as long as they can before declaring him a failed mission. Just look at Washington.


I have seen Darko in person 20 to 25 times, and in warm ups he always seem to have a nice stroke from 25 feet in. If you don't like Darko thats ok with me but since neither of us were at those summer league games, its hard for us to make an accurate judgement of how he played. Calling him a bust off a few box scores isn't the best way to go though.

Mad Max will get some minutes but those could come at the 3 spot if we use a big lineup. It doesn't sound like Delfino will be getting any next year anyway.


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

Does anyone still hold hope for Darko?


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

dissonance19 said:


> So, he was blocked once? Wow. It's not the end of his career no matter who it is. And expecting him play great right away when he hasn't played much thanks to LB is putting expectations high. Even if he was drafted 2nd. No wonder why people make him to be a bust. The Kid just needs to be given a break. He's just what, 20 yrs old? This whole thing about him has gotten old.


Your excuses keep getting old.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

Most Piston fans. I don't see why so many people like to hate on this guy. He is a project and Joe Dumars never said he wasn't lol


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

HKF said:


> The problem is Jason Maxiell is a 6'6 PF and he's going to end up playing more than Darko next year. Simply because he's more aggressive. That says a lot.
> 
> Reading Mark Stein's article where Dave Hanners said that Darko is the best shooting, passing, dribbling 7'0 his age was hilarious. What he also failed to mention is that Darko is soft, weak rebounding and can't score in the paint. So he can pass from 20 feet away from the rim, big deal. So he can shoot, big deal. He can't shoot like Dirk, so he's going to have to spend most of his career in the paint, where even after two years of what they call "development," he is still unconfident under the paint.
> 
> Although they did say look how his body has improved. He is Skita Redux and they are going to hold out for as long as they can before declaring him a failed mission. Just look at Washington.


Maxiell though has had much more experience though in college. And is also not 20 yrs old is he? Darko is learning how to play and sitting on the bench is not learning anything. 

And the people saying LB would play him if he knew he could play. That's BS. If he played enough and had experience and still sucked then yeah it's different. But that's not what is happening. His confidence is shot because of LB not even giving him a chance to play more than 2 mins in blow out wins/losses or more than one of the meaningless games there are in a 82 game season when Detroit winged it. 

Darko still has room to improve at his age, and do the things he needs to do to get better if given the tiem. As I said he's 20, hasn't played, and what do you expect from someone who hasn't played? Quick results, improvement? Not gonna happen.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

DWadeistheTruth said:


> Your excuses keep getting old.



Darko has had 2 years in the league and hasn't done much, does this mean I can trash on Dorrel Wright after next season? Because it seems most fans on here think 18 year olds only need 2 years to develop nowadays.

Maybe he should have went to college (uh hmm DePaul).


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

DWadeistheTruth said:


> Your excuses keep getting old.


This is the 2nd time I've even posted about Darko. I just don't see the logic in what people are saying in how he's a bust when he hasn't been given a chance to do anything. Or even in this thread cuz he got blocked once or looks bad in a summer league game. There is no logic in it. Maybe you should read my posts over.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

I think by "your" he ment all Darko supporters. There was no research behind his post.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

kamego said:


> I have seen Darko in person 20 to 25 times, and in warm ups he always seem to have a nice stroke from 25 feet in. If you don't like Darko thats ok with me but since neither of us were at those summer league games, its hard for us to make an accurate judgement of how he played. Calling him a bust off a few box scores isn't the best way to go though.


Now you know I'm not calling him a bust off of two box scores. That's just assinine. However, it doesn't look good when he can't do anything against guys who will make it in the league. Do you think I could take Darko to Rucker or to Long Beach to hoop and he would perform well just against regular tough streetballers? I'm not talking And1. I'm talking guys who just hoop and some have played semi-pro ball. I think he'd be overwhelmed just going there. He'd be shooting jumpers, not rebounding, getting blocked and not playing like a 7'0.

It isn't about him being a bust. What it is about is that he's 20 years old and you can't use his age anymore as a reason why you should be patient with him? When you have a Sebastian Telfair come right in (first HS player drafted under 6'5) and look like he belongs in the league simply because he can hold his own, that's what this is about.

I don't simply think long term that Darko can hold his own in this league. Like Skita (who had to give up on), they are just too damn soft. The NBA is a man's league.



> Mad Max will get some minutes but those could come at the 3 spot if we use a big lineup. It doesn't sound like Delfino will be getting any next year anyway.


And Max is a MAN. He'll play at least 15 mpg next year.

Mark Stein, Darko article


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Tony Parker was drafted at 19 in the bottom half of the first round and he played/started. If you can play you will. Even Biedrins got on the court last year. I bet you Andrew Bynum as a 17 year old rookie will play more than Darko as a 20 year old 3rd year player.


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

kamego said:


> Darko has had 2 years in the league and hasn't done much, does this mean I can trash on Dorrel Wright after next season? Because it seems most fans on here think 18 year olds only need 2 years to develop nowadays.
> 
> Maybe he should have went to college (uh hmm DePaul).


First Dorrel was like a 19 pick, not a second pick. Second you could start bashing him if you want. But give him one more year. Dorrel Wright was a project, we did not throw away a second pick. When there was Melo, Bosh, and Wade voted after him.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

HKF said:


> Now you know I'm not calling him a bust off of two box scores. That's just assinine. However, it doesn't look good when he can't do anything against guys who will make it in the league. Do you think I could take Darko to Rucker or to Long Beach to hoop and he would perform well just against regular tough streetballers? I'm not talking And1. I'm talking guys who just hoop and some have played semi-pro ball. I think he'd be overwhelmed just going there. He'd be shooting jumpers, not rebounding, getting blocked and not playing like a 7'0.
> 
> It isn't about him being a bust. What it is about is that he's 20 years old and you can't use his age anymore as a reason why you should be patient with him? When you have a Sebastian Telfair come right in (first HS player drafted under 6'5) and look like he belongs in the league simply because he can hold his own, that's what this is about.
> 
> ...


I am not argueing you about Max even though he went to Cincy (eww) because he is going to be solid and Delfino is going to lose most of his minutes to him in my mind.

Darko wouldn't do good in streetball because thats not his game. He's a euro who sat on the bench for 2 years... If it takes him more then 2 games to get his act together, I wouldn't be suprised. Don't judge him on what you saw in garbage minutes last year, why don't we wait till after next season when he should see a few real minutes a game and then talk about him.

How much did Dirk and JO do in their first years?


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

DWadeistheTruth said:


> First Dorrel was like a 19 pick, not a second pick. Second you could start bashing him if you want. But give him one more year. Dorrel Wright was a project, we did not throw away a second pick. When there was Melo, Bosh, and Wade voted after him.


A project pick is a project no matter the number taken at. It wouldn't be right for me to bash on a guy like Dorrel until he was atleast 22 and we knew what he could do, so why bash Darko now? Maybe because he plays for Detroit.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

kamego said:


> Darko has had 2 years in the league and hasn't done much, does this mean I can trash on Dorrel Wright after next season? Because it seems most fans on here think 18 year olds only need 2 years to develop nowadays.
> 
> Maybe he should have went to college (uh hmm DePaul).


Nope because he will play next year and he was drafted No. 19. List all the players drafted 19 in the last 6 years and tell me how good they are. Wait, I'll do it for you.

2005 Hakim Warrick
2004 Dorell Wright
2003 Sasha Pavlovic
2002 Ryan Humphrey
2001 Zach Randolph
2000 Jamaal Magloire

Dorell knew he wasn't going to play. Unlike Darko, who actually thought he would play his first year and most certainly his 2nd year. He's shellshocked because he realized how good these guys in the NBA are. If you're weak and soft, you're not going to make it. Andrew Bogut is the same age and yet who will have a better year next year. Bogut is a rookie. Would Bogut have been picked over Darko in 2003? Darko was obviously picked cause he had some kind of talent, correct?


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Ok so those others have shown something at early ages. They're all in different situations and should be treated as different cases because different elements go into it. Not everyone will do what Telfair or Parker or those other guys do. Even if it's show flashes. How can anyone say anything about someone who has yet to be given a chance to show anything, and expect something great right away? Like I said, If Darko was given mins and played more than he has for awhile and hadn't shown anything then I'd be with everyone else. He hasn't though. And from what we've seen, it's too soon.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

HKF said:


> Tony Parker was drafted at 19 in the bottom half of the first round and he played/started. If you can play you will. Even Biedrins got on the court last year. I bet you Andrew Bynum as a 17 year old rookie will play more than Darko as a 20 year old 3rd year player.


Of course Bynum will get more time, who else do the Lakers have in the front court right now? Darko did have to sit behind Dice, Wallace, and Wallace.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

kamego said:


> A project pick is a project no matter the number taken at. It wouldn't be right for me to bash on a guy like Dorrel until he was atleast 22 and we knew what he could do, so why bash Darko now? Maybe because he plays for Detroit.


This is not true. A project like Kendrick Perkins is not the same as a project like Darko.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

HKF said:


> Nope because he will play next year and he was drafted No. 19. List all the players drafted 19 in the last 6 years and tell me how good they are. Wait, I'll do it for you.
> 
> 2005 Hakim Warrick
> 2004 Dorell Wright
> ...


Being picked exactly 19th has nothing to do with anything lol. I was using Dorrell as an example because Wadefan is a Miami guy. I said it wouldn't be right for me to bash him right now. I never said he wouldn't be a good player, I acutally used him because I saw him play in person before in high school. Remember he was a DePaul commit, so I was trying to talk about someone I knew about.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

HKF said:


> This is not true. A project like Kendrick Perkins is not the same as a project like Darko.



Some projects need more time/work that doesn't make it right to bash on them quickly. Some guys just need a few years to develop. Remember Darko had to adjust to life in America unlike Perkins when he moved here. He has no family in America and had to learn most of the language. Top that on to sitting for 2 years and being only 20, give this man some time before everyone attacks him.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

i dont get the people who keep saying he hasnt had a chance yet. he's played in 71 games the last two years, and is shooting .298 from the field. come on, thats absolutely pitiful, thank god for the age limit.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

kamego said:


> I am not argueing you about Max even though he went to Cincy (eww) because he is going to be solid and Delfino is going to lose most of his minutes to him in my mind.
> 
> Darko wouldn't do good in streetball because thats not his game. He's a euro who sat on the bench for 2 years... If it takes him more then 2 games to get his act together, I wouldn't be suprised. Don't judge him on what you saw in garbage minutes last year, why don't we wait till after next season when he should see a few real minutes a game and then talk about him.
> 
> How much did Dirk and JO do in their first years?


He wouldn't do well in streetball, because he's soft. If you're big and you can play, you can dominate on the blacktop. I see it all the time. If you're a big kid who doesn't want to get physical and shoot a bunch of jumpers then you'll be dog meat.

Dirk's rookie year (drafted 9): 8.2 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 1.0 apg 
Dirk's 2nd year: 17.5 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 2.5 apg

O'Neal's rookie year (drafted 17): 4.1 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 0.6 bpg
O'Neal's 2nd year: 4.5 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 1.0 bpg

Darko's rookie year (drafted 2): 1.4 ppg, 1.3 rpg
Darko's 2nd year: 1.8 ppg, 1.2 rpg

I could take any number of HS kids from the 2003 HS class and they would do better then he did/is doing. Heck Leon Powe at one time was ranked right behind Lebron, even after tearing his ACL he would have done better numbers than Darko these first two years.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

Debt Collector said:


> i dont get the people who keep saying he hasnt had a chance yet. he's played in 71 games the last two years, and is shooting .298 from the field. come on, thats absolutely pitiful, thank god for the age limit.



Name one 7 footer who can sit on a bench for 3 hours with no nba experience and can come into a game for 2 minutes and light it up. Any Detroit fan would tell you, when Darko recieves extended minutes he plays better and shows a lot of postive signs.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

kamego said:


> Some projects need more time/work that doesn't make it right to bash on them quickly. Some guys just need a few years to develop. Remember Darko had to adjust to life in America unlike Perkins when he moved here. He has no family in America and had to learn most of the language. Top that on to sitting for 2 years and being only 20, give this man some time before everyone attacks him.


C'mon man. Darko Milicic speaks better English than Darius Miles. He spoke fine in 2003.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Debt Collector said:


> i dont get the people who keep saying he hasnt had a chance yet. he's played in 71 games the last two years, and is shooting .298 from the field. come on, thats absolutely pitiful, thank god for the age limit.


It's not like he's playing every day or getting enough mins or even getting the confidence. I still see no logic in everyone's argument for this.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

HKF said:


> He wouldn't do well in streetball, because he's soft. If you're big and you can play, you can dominate on the blacktop. I see it all the time. If you're a big kid who doesn't want to get physical and shoot a bunch of jumpers then you'll be dog meat.
> 
> Dirk's rookie year (drafted 9): 8.2 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 1.0 apg
> Dirk's 2nd year: 17.5 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 2.5 apg
> ...


So you believe it's fair to write this guy off at 20 years and 2 weeks old just because you heard he was soft? What'd he do to upset you?


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

kamego said:


> Name one 7 footer who can sit on a bench for 3 hours with no nba experience and can come into a game for 2 minutes and light it up. Any Detroit fan would tell you, when Darko recieves extended minutes he plays better and shows a lot of postive signs.


nobodys asking him to light it up, but a 7'1" rotting corpse could do better than a career .298 field goal percentage.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

HKF said:


> C'mon man. Darko Milicic speaks better English than Darius Miles. He spoke fine in 2003.


Of all I said there, all you counter me on is language? If I remember right he said a few words, I believe I said he had to learn most of english. I didn't say he didn't know anything when he was coming over. He had a little time to prep with his agent before the draft of course.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

Debt Collector said:


> nobodys asking him to light it up, but a 7'1" rotting corpse could do better than a career .298 field goal percentage.



Why don't we look at stats from every game Darko played over 10 minutes then? Instead of judging garbage time


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

As Mark Stein had in his write up



> The Pistons believe it, too. They still swear by the kid and, as president Joe Dumars reminds, Milicic was drafted for another season or two down the road, no matter what *anybody * thinks.


That applies to all of us since I would take the guess Joe Dumars knows basketball better then all of us.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

Darko's 2nd year games with over 10 minutes played

12/4/04 @NOR 14 minutes shot 1 for 5 1 board 1 block 1 to

12/10/04 vs ATL 24 minutes shot 1 for 3 2 for 2 FTs 1 foul 6 boards

2/14/05 vs MIL 13 minutes 3 for 6 shooting 2 for 4 FTs 2 blocks 1 rebound 1 assist 2 fouls 2 to's

2 starts to end the year
4/19 @ATL 30 minutes played shot 7 for 11 2 of 4 from FT 3 blocks 1 turnover 4 fouls 5 boards 2 assists 16 points

4/20 @CHA 30 minutes shot 2 of 8 5 of 6 from FT 1 block 1 steal 2 fouls 3 boards 1 assist 9 points


Now those are all the games in which he played more then 10 minutes last year. Don't talk to me about garbage time or career stats, lets talk real game experience.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

kamego said:


> So you believe it's fair to write this guy off at 20 years and 2 weeks old just because you heard he was soft? What'd he do to upset you?


He hasn't done anything to upset me. He's soft because of his demeanor. Channing Frye is soft too. Don't believe me, watch when you see him during the season with 2 rebound performances. 

It's amazing how people think I hate these guys. No. I don't hate any players. I am just a tough critic. If there is something about your game that holds you back, I'm going to admit it. The rap on Euro players is that they are soft and disappeared in crunch time, however guys like AK-47, Ginobili, Nocioni, Dirk and Radman were bucking the trend. 

Then came guys like Skita, Darko, Lampe, Welsch, Zarko, Udrih, Rasho (he's not young but he's pretty soft). It's like they went back to the stereotype on them. Now I understand why European fans say their players should stay over there until they are ready, because their kids are so used to fundamentals only, that they have no individualized aggression. Which means, if they are not all playing on the same team, their meek timid mindsets put them in the shark's tank with a leg hemorrhage going on.

I'd love for Darko to become a superstar, but it's just not going to happen. I mean damn, even Matt Bonner has had a better career than Darko so far. He was drafted in the 2nd round in the same year and had to go over to Europe.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

kamego said:


> Darko's 2nd year games with over 10 minutes played
> 
> 12/4/04 @NOR 14 minutes shot 1 for 5 1 board 1 block 1 to
> 
> ...



Judging from that, he looked like he had one fluke game against the worst team in basketball. :laugh:


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

HKF said:


> He hasn't done anything to upset me. He's soft because of his demeanor. Channing Frye is soft too. Don't believe me, watch when you see him during the season with 2 rebound performances.
> 
> It's amazing how people think I hate these guys. No. I don't hate any players. I am just a tough critic. If there is something about your game that holds you back, I'm going to admit it. The rap on Euro players is that they are soft and disappeared in crunch time, however guys like AK-47, Ginobili, Nocioni, Dirk and Radman were bucking the trend.
> 
> ...


I never said you hated him but it seems like your jumping the gun here on Darko. He has shown flash of great talent and then followed up with gradeschool mistakes but that matter of fact is, he is 20 and is an atheltic freak. He hasn't played in two years but you can't blame a rookie for not cracking Detroit's front line and Larry Brown's usual use of veterns (Read Darvin Ham) I am not trying to sell you on Darko or trying to make believers out of the people who think he's a bust but I am trying to show reasons why a 20 year old 7 foot 1 kid shouldn't be labled a bust yet.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

kamego said:


> Darko's 2nd year games with over 10 minutes played
> 
> 12/4/04 @NOR 14 minutes shot 1 for 5 1 board 1 block 1 to
> 
> ...


honestly doesnt look much better.


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## Scinos (Jun 10, 2003)

I think the point HKF is trying to make, is that you can't teach traits like agressiveness and physical toughness. It's something you either have in you, or you don't. Learning the english language better isn't going to suddenly make him more aggressive on the court. :no:


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

kamego said:


> As Mark Stein had in his write up
> 
> 
> 
> That applies to all of us since I would take the guess Joe Dumars knows basketball better then all of us.


You think they going to bash the kid. Ofcourse they going to say the right things.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

HKF said:


> Judging from that, he looked like he had one fluke game against the worst team in basketball. :laugh:



Those aren't horrible numbers but no they are not allstar numbers by any means. I was just showing some stats that show where Darko really is as a player. People shouldn't look at his garbage stats to see how good or bad he is but atleast look at how he plays when he gets into the game for real.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

DWadeistheTruth said:


> You think they going to bash the kid. Ofcourse they going to say the right things.



If Joe Dumars didn't think he was going to be great don't you think he would trade him like former number 10 overall pick Rondey White of the Pistons?

Joe Dumars also traded Mateen Cleaves quickly. He is known for admitting mistakes quickly


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

Scinos said:


> I think the point HKF is trying to make, is that you can't teach traits like agressiveness and physical toughness. It's something you either have in you, or you don't. Learning the english language better isn't going to suddenly make him more aggressive on the court. :no:


If you beat someone in practice enough you can create agressiveness and physical toughness. No it didn't work for Yao but it sure did work for JO when Rasheed beat him in practice for 3 years. It didn't work for Yao because he was already developed as a player and wasn't a project.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

I'm going to bring up a point I made in an old Darko thread (a few weeks ago), and my point is more valid now. If you read between the lines it's obvious that Joe Dumars isn't too impressed with what he's seen with Darko.

First he went and got McDyess last offseason, re-acquired Elden Campbell after he was waived by the Nets, and then in this year's draft they go and draft Jason Maxiell and Amir Johnson who are both front court players.

Ben Wallace's contract is expiring after this season, but even if they did let him go (I doubt it), they'd have Maxiell, Wallace and McDyess all ahead of Darko on the roster.


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

kamego said:


> If Joe Dumars didn't think he was going to be great don't you think he would trade him like former number 10 overall pick Rondey White of the Pistons?
> 
> Joe Dumars also traded Mateen Cleaves quickly. He is known for admitting mistakes quickly


They already waited on his *** for two years. And Darko really has lost so much value. You aint getting no superstar, or star for Darko. You might as well wait.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Scinos said:


> I think the point HKF is trying to make, is that you can't teach traits like agressiveness and physical toughness. It's something you either have in you, or you don't. Learning the english language better isn't going to suddenly make him more aggressive on the court. :no:


To my point, you understand me. How does Robert Swift play? How does Collison? How will Bogut play? How does Matt Bonner play? Kris Humphries? Al Jefferson?


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

PhillyPhanatic said:


> I'm going to bring up a point I made in an old Darko thread (a few weeks ago), and my point is more valid now. If you read between the lines it's obvious that Joe Dumars isn't too impressed with what he's seen with Darko.
> 
> First he went and got McDyess last offseason, re-acquired Elden Campbell after he was waived by the Nets, and then in this year's draft they go and draft Jason Maxiell and Amir Johnson who are both front court players.
> 
> Ben Wallace's contract is expiring after this season, but even if they did let him go (I doubt it), they'd have Maxiell, Wallace and McDyess all ahead of Darko on the roster.



Of course Joe Dumars is going to try and win now. No one is trying to say Darko can be any type of answer today. Joe Dumars would be stupid if he put all the eggs in one basket


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

DWadeistheTruth said:


> They already waited on his *** for two years. And Darko really has lost so much value. You aint getting no superstar, or star for Darko. You might as well wait.


Well if Detroit might as well wait, why are we argueing about the guy? If Dumars thought he was a bad pick, he would have traded him for a first rounder by now.


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

kamego said:


> Well if Detroit might as well wait, why are we argueing about the guy? If Dumars thought he was a bad pick, he would have traded him for a first rounder by now.


And fans like you will be mad. Cause you wasted a second pick, for a really late round pick.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

kamego said:


> Of course Joe Dumars is going to try and win now. No one is trying to say Darko can be any type of answer today. Joe Dumars would be stupid if he put all the eggs in one basket


That wasn't my point at all, my point is if Dumars had more faith in Darko from what he saw in practice he would've pushed to get him more playing time. Instead he's making the front court situation even more crowded than it was before.

I don't even think Dumars has enough faith to keep a yolk in Darko's basket.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

I'm trying to hold off on judging Darko until he gets consistent minutes which will boost his confidence which hopefully will help in his play. However, I can't help but to wonder, being the 2nd overall pick and having as much talent as people say why hasn't he gotten the minutes. Dumars hasn't even put pressure on Larry Brown to play Darko which leads me to believe he has nothing to offer.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

PhillyPhanatic said:


> That wasn't my point at all, my point is if Dumars had more faith in Darko from what he saw in practice he would've pushed to get him more playing time. Instead he's making the front court situation even more crowded than it was before.
> 
> I don't even think Dumars has enough faith to keep a yolk in Darko's basket.


Dumars added players to win now, I don't see adding Dice as a reason against Darko but as good planning. Mad Max was a good pickup because he will see some time at the 3 spot for the Pistons. Dumars said himself he isn't counting on Darko for 1 to 2 more years so he has find ways to add guys to fill in the gap.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

DWadeistheTruth said:


> And fans like you will be mad. Cause you wasted a second pick, for a really late round pick.


If Darko is going to be a bust wouldn't it be smart to get at least that if you know he's not going to pan out?


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## mr.ankle20 (Mar 7, 2004)

kamego said:


> Dumars added players to win now, I don't see adding Dice as a reason against Darko but as good planning. Mad Max was a good pickup because he will see some time at the 3 spot for the Pistons. Dumars said himself he isn't counting on Darko for 1 to 2 more years so he has find ways to add guys to fill in the gap.



by that time it will time to a get new contract , how much money do you think he will ask ?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Just to be speak about Jermaine O'Neal. During his first two years, he played 45 and 60 of the games for a very good Portland team (then the lockout came in 1999). His numbers were better than Darko. Darko on the other hand, as the No. 2 pick in 2003 has played 71 total games in two years (34 and 37). Even Darvin Ham played in more games than Darko. (47)

No. 56 pick Brandon Hunter (soon to be career journeyman) has played in 67 total games. He has outscored Darko 220 points to 115. Darko is pretty pathetic man.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

HKF said:


> Just to be speak about Jermaine O'Neal. During his first two years, he played 45 and 60 of the games for a very good Portland team (then the lockout came in 1999). His numbers were better than Darko. Darko on the other hand, as the No. 2 pick in 2003 has played 71 total games in two years (34 and 37). Even Darvin Ham played in more games than Darko. (47)
> 
> No. 56 pick Brandon Hunter (soon to be career journeyman) has played in 67 total games. He has outscored Darko 220 points to 115. Darko is pretty pathetic man.



I said I was done talking career numbers. Larry Brown never gave him minutes so I'm not even going there.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Jason Maxiell is not a 3 man. He will be a backup PF. Watch. He's not even playing the 3 in summer league.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

mr.ankle20 said:


> by that time it will time to a get new contract , how much money do you think he will ask ?


He has one year left on his deal, then the team option. After that he is a restricted free agent.

So the quickest he can hit unstricted free agentcy is in 3 seasons, if he takes a one year deal as a restricted free agent. I would look for him to ask for a raise for his restrcited deal which I would be suprised wasn't only one year.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

HKF said:


> Jason Maxiell is not a 3 man. He will be a backup PF. Watch. He's not even playing the 3 in summer league.


When Rasheed, Dice, and Ben are on the roster he might be forced to switch. At his height look for the Pistons to move him to the 3 and play big ball. I am not saying he will be a 3 for his career but expect the Pistons to give him minutes there next season.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

HKF said:


> Just to be speak about Jermaine O'Neal. During his first two years, he played 45 and 60 of the games for a very good Portland team (then the lockout came in 1999). His numbers were better than Darko. Darko on the other hand, as the No. 2 pick in 2003 has played 71 total games in two years (34 and 37). Even Darvin Ham played in more games than Darko. (47)
> 
> No. 56 pick Brandon Hunter (soon to be career journeyman) has played in 67 total games. He has outscored Darko 220 points to 115. Darko is pretty pathetic man.


 so J.O. got extended playing time and performed well in Portland...cause I must've missed it...

they traded him for Dale Davis....I hope you thought J.O. was pathetic too

once again people act as if Dumars saw him at the YMCA and decided to draft him....he was a top 5 pick for a reason..

people want him to fail, and I dont know why....damn that Darko for being a top 5 talent/prospect...the nerve of him to have scouts going crazy over his talent


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

tone wone said:


> so J.O. got extended playing time and performed well in Portland...cause I must've missed it...
> 
> they traded him for Dale Davis....I hope you thought J.O. was pathetic too
> 
> ...


 :clap:


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

tone wone said:


> so J.O. got extended playing time and performed well in Portland...cause I must've missed it...
> 
> they traded him for Dale Davis....I hope you thought J.O. was pathetic too


Nope. I always felt trading O'Neal was a mistake. I have the McDonald's All-American game on tape the year he, Kobe, Hamilton and Bibby were in it and he was beast. There is a reason he was ranked top 3 in that class. I knew he could ball. 



> once again people act as if Dumars saw him at the YMCA and decided to draft him....he was a top 5 pick for a reason..


So please explain how you teach someone to be confident and assertive on the basketball court? Greg Oden is one of the nicest kids you'll ever meet, but on the basketball court he plays like a damn hoss. He's not so nice when he's stuffing shots back in your face and dunking all over your team.



> people want him to fail, and I dont know why....damn that Darko for being a top 5 talent/prospect...the nerve of him to have scouts going crazy over his talent


Scouts have been wrong before. No one wants him to fail. I just want Dumars to acknowledge he ****ed up. Bottomline. Chris Washburn was a bust. William Beford was a bust. Charles Shackleford was a bust. Sam Bowie was a bust. Why can't Darko? Because he's 20 and he hasn't earned the chance to play?

Well I guess two years from now, when he's simply mediocre, people will put in the Chris Washburn category. People love trying to hold off on calling Darko a bust, but Kwame Brown is a bust. 

Make no mistake, Kwame is a bust (so far), but Darko has to put in work to become the bust that Kwame is.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

HKF said:


> Nope. I always felt trading O'Neal was a mistake. I have the McDonald's All-American game on tape the year he, Kobe, Hamilton and Bibby were in it and he was beast. There is a reason he was ranked top 3 in that class. I knew he could ball.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 other than the J.O. comment I wasn't really refering to you...

its just people act as if he wasn't a top 5 talent...now, will he be a star? he hasn't shown in the least bit that he will be...but, hasn't gotten to show much of anything...is he bust? if you or anyone wants to believe he is...go ahead...but, I have to see more of him


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

HKF said:


> Nope. I always felt trading O'Neal was a mistake. I have the McDonald's All-American game on tape the year he, Kobe, Hamilton and Bibby were in it and he was beast. There is a reason he was ranked top 3 in that class. I knew he could ball.


I was at that game because it was in Detroit that year. Kobe didn't impress me to much though atleast during that game  lol


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

kamego said:


> I was at that game because it was in Detroit that year. Kobe didn't impress me to much though atleast during that game  lol


Stephen Jackson did. Vasco Evtimov dunked all over Jason Collier on a dish from Shaheen Holloway. Just filthy. It was also not in Detroit. The McDonald's All-American Game in 1996, was in Pittsburgh, PA on Duquesne's home court.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

HKF said:


> Scouts have been wrong before. No one wants him to fail. I just want Dumars to acknowledge he ****ed up. Bottomline. Chris Washburn was a bust. William Beford was a bust. Charles Shackleford was a bust. Sam Bowie was a bust. Why can't Darko? Because he's 20 and he hasn't earned the chance to play?
> 
> Well I guess two years from now, when he's simply mediocre, people will put in the Chris Washburn category. People love trying to hold off on calling Darko a bust, but Kwame Brown is a bust.
> 
> Make no mistake, Kwame is a bust (so far), but Darko has to put in work to become the bust that Kwame is.


Scouts have been wrong before but is 2 years enough time to label someone a bust when he's on a 4 year contract? Things could happen in the next 2 years who knows. I can't predict the future and neither can anyone else here so why don't we wait until we see him play before I have to hear another person suggest taking him out back and shooting him like old yeller


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

HKF said:


> Stephen Jackson did. Vasco Evtimov dunked all over Jason Collier on a dish from Shaheen Holloway. Just filthy.


Going into that game I expect more out of Kobe but that's alright. High school allstar games aren't always a true indicatator of talent.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

What is the sense of having a message board, if we can't make predictions? You think he'll be good, I think he'll be a bust, what's the difference?


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

HKF said:


> Make no mistake, Kwame is a bust (so far), but Darko has to put in work to become the bust that Kwame is.


Haha. Classic!


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

Alright I am done talking on this thread for 2 years. If anyone wants to save my comments and talk to me about how wrong I was then, go for it  I for one will wait until a players rookie contract is over before I call them a bust.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

kamego said:


> Going into that game I expect more out of Kobe but that's alright. High school allstar games aren't always a true indicatator of talent.


As I said, the game you supposedly went to the McDonald's. The 1996 McDonald's All-American Game was in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

http://mcdepk.com/2004allamericangame/downloads/boys_games_statistics.pdf

It may have been the Magic Johnson Roundball Classic game.


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## thaKEAF (Mar 8, 2004)

I really didn't understand why he was picked second overall to begin with. He supposedly had all this potential but as of now he's just been a joke.


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## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

It's really informative to see your opinions of Darko based on secondary sources HKF. I guess reading others opinion's of summer league exhibitions makes you some sort of know it all scout now.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

ian said:


> It's really informative to see your opinions of Darko based on secondary sources HKF. I guess reading others opinion's of summer league exhibitions makes you some sort of know it all scout now.


 Give me a break. So no one can feel he's a bust because it hurts Pistons' fans feelings? Who needed summer league to conclude that he's a bust? I've thought it for some time. When he only avg. 1.5 ppg and couldn't even get into half of the games, even though Detroit has won over 50 back to back years?

Darko Milicic, 71 games = 115 total points
Brandon Hunter, 67 games = 220 total points

The Number 56 pick in the 2003 draft is better than the No. 2 pick. :rofl:


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

ian said:


> It's really informative to see your opinions of Darko based on secondary sources HKF. I guess reading others opinion's of summer league exhibitions makes you some sort of know it all scout now.


This post doesn't make sense, if it's wrong someone to take into account a report on a player's bad play in summer league, is it any better to just assume those accounts are wrong?


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## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

HKF said:


> Give me a break. So no one can feel he's a bust because it hurts Pistons' fans feelings? Who needed summer league to conclude that he's a bust? I've thought it for some time. When he only avg. 1.5 ppg and couldn't even get into half of the games, even though Detroit has won over 50 back to back years?
> 
> Darko Milicic, 71 games = 115 total points
> Brandon Hunter, 67 games = 220 total points
> ...


If he's not playing, how can you make absolute judgments that he's soft? And how could you possibly call someone that just turned 20 a bust? Not every teenage big man ends up in an Andrew Bynum type situation where their team is horrible and they're put right into the fire. There are only so many minutes a teenage 7 footer can get when Antonio McDyess, Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace and Mehmet Okur have been on the roster.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

You people are writing him off way to soon. Detroit scouts > > > > > > > > > your basketball knowledge times one hundred. Joe Dumars still has faith and anyone on here who thinks they see something Joe doesn't is smokin the dope.

And for the record, Jason Maxiell is more like 7'1 because he has a freakish wingspan and last I checked, you play defense with your arms, not your head.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

ian said:


> If he's not playing, how can you make absolute judgments that he's soft? And how could you possibly call someone that just turned 20 a bust? Not every teenage big man ends up in an Andrew Bynum type situation where their team is horrible and they're put right into the fire. There are only so many minutes a teenage 7 footer can get when Antonio McDyess, Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace and Mehmet Okur have been on the roster.


Why can't I? Isn't this a message board to say the opinions that are on your mind? What makes you opinion correct and mine incorrect? Cause you say so? If I feel he is a bust and will continue to be a bust it's my perogative is it not? 

Mehmet Okur left and proceeded to be average and overpaid in Utah. Elden Campbell was waived and the Nets picked him up. I didn't see Darko getting into those ball games when Campbell was not there for any type of minutes. 

Face it. How do you explain a career backup scrub in Brandon Hunter playing 4 less games than Darko and having practically double his points? If Hunter did what Darko did, he'd be out of the league so fast. Doesn't it make you feel sad, that Detroit is afraid to put Darko in a game during the 2nd quarter when he might actually be facing meaningful PT? Heck even Biedrins, when the Warriors were going to on their winning streak, got to play in the first half, where the game means something.

Not Darko. He's not good enough to play above garbage time. After two years. The No. 2 pick. He's so bad, they've given him a demeaning nickname like the "Human Victory Cigar." He can't even come into the games, unless Detroit is up 20 points with a minute to go, because they are afraid of his bumbling. Maybe he should go to Ringling Bros. :clown:


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

CiMa said:


> You people are writing him off way to soon. Detroit scouts > > > > > > > > > your basketball knowledge times one hundred. Joe Dumars still has faith and anyone on here who thinks they see something Joe doesn't is smokin the dope.


:mrt: Is this supposed to be an insult? Do you think only people who get paid to scout know how to spot talent? LOL @ you. If so, how come the Clippers keep drafting busts? If this was the case, there would never be busts. :rofl: If you don't know anything about the game, my advice to you would be to play NBA Live Dynasty mode and be quiet.



> And for the record, Jason Maxiell is more like 7'1 because he has a freakish wingspan and last I checked, you play defense with your arms, not your head.


Freakish wingspan or not. He's still only 6'5-6'6. He's at a disadvantage, but he is relentless and works hard, so he'll be fine.


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## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

HKF said:


> Face it. How do you explain a career backup scrub in Brandon Hunter playing 4 less games than Darko and having practically double his points? If Hunter did what Darko did, he'd be out of the league so fast.


Your argument is nothing more than "As a teenager Darko isn't getting PT on a team loaded with studs"

Do I feel bad that Andris Biedrins gets playing team on a sucky team and Darko doesn't get PT on a good team? What are you even talking about? Great point, sucky teams play raw talent more than good ones.

Wow... 

When you have to revert to games played rather than minutes played, purposely misusing statistics, you've really sunk low.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

ian said:


> Your argument is nothing more than "As a teenager Darko isn't getting PT on a team loaded with studs"
> 
> Wow...
> 
> When you have to revert to games played rather than minutes played, purposely misusing statistics, you've really sunk low.


How am I misusing the stats? Let me simply for you and anyone else. Here is the Darko's page and you look at his career numbers and career games and then you tell me why a 29% shooting 20 year old is the future of the league?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/milicda01.html

I'm simply using the stats that are available to me.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

I don't know anything about the game? I'm not the one writing off a 20 year old kid who hasnt been given jack **** for playing time. Patience is a virtue. Darko was drafted as a 17 year old FOREIGNER. Foreigners usually take more time to develop and then you have to factor in that he was only <b>17</b>. Teens usually take more time to develop as well. Darko has two negatives working against him by default, then you factor in Larry Brown, there's three negatives working against him. Holy crap just give him some time.

And you pretty much twisted around what I said. Clippers' scouts are obviously fools, Detroit's are obviously not.

Finally, Maxiell is 6'7" and it doesn't matter because height is overrated. Ben Wallace is 6'9" at best with his afro.


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## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

HKF said:


> How am I misusing the stats? Let me simply for you and anyone else. Here is the Darko's page and you look at his career numbers and career games and then you tell me why a 29% shooting 20 year old is the future of the league?
> 
> http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/milicda01.html
> 
> I'm simply using the stats that are available to me.


Saying how does Brandon Hunter have nearly double the points of Darko when he's played 4 less games?

Geez, I don't know, because Brandon Hunter has more than 200 more minutes played? You purposely tried to make it seem like Hunter had more points while playing less, which isn't the case. Now you're bringing up different stats and ignoring what I was saying.

The truth is, Hunter has more points per 48 minutes than Darko. While I think that's irrelevant to Darko's future/status as a bust, you had to have seen that Hunter had many more minutes played, yet you purposely stated it in a misleading way. There goes your credibility as far as I'm concerned.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

Oh and whatever Darko did/didn't do in practice, it wouldn't have mattered. Larry Brown does NOT play young players. Did you even watch the Olympics?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

CiMa said:


> I don't know anything about the game? I'm not the one writing off a 20 year old kid who hasnt been given jack **** for playing time. Patience is a virtue. Darko was drafted as a 17 year old FOREIGNER. Foreigners usually take more time to develop and then you have to factor in that he was only <b>17</b>. Teens usually take more time to develop as well. Darko has two negatives working against him by default, then you factor in Larry Brown, there's three negatives working against him. Holy crap just give him some time.


LMAO, you're getting all worked up. It's obvious you haven't had your Junior juice. Just relax and count to 3. He was draft at 17 (and turned 18 a few days later, big damn deal) and he's 20 now. What's your point? Kobe was drafted at 17? Jermaine O'Neal was drafted at 17? Andrew Bynum was drafted at 17? Will Darko have a better 3rd year than Bynum's rookie year? Darko will be 20. 



> And you pretty much twisted around what I said. Clippers' scouts are obviously fools, Detroit's are obviously not.
> 
> Finally, Maxiell is 6'7" and it doesn't matter because height is overrated. Ben Wallace is 6'9" at best with his afro.


If height was overrated, every undersized big man would succeed in the NBA. Guards under 5'11 would be all-stars. Height matters in the pros. 

Oh and Detroit drafted Carlos Delfino and is already very upset with him. He is looking like he wasn't a good pick (for the Pistons anyway). Didn't Detroit draft Mateen Cleaves and Rodney White back to back? What happened with those picks from their "super scouts?"


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

CiMa said:


> Oh and whatever Darko did/didn't do in practice, it wouldn't have mattered. Larry Brown does NOT play young players. Did you even watch the Olympics?


If he trusts the players, he'll play them. In Larry Hughes rookie year, he actually benched a trusted player in George Lynch to give Hughes the start in the playoff series Vs the Magic. 

Larry Brown is a guy who likes to be loyal to players who are loyal to him and give them minutes, but he'll still give minutes to guys he feels he can trust on the floor even if they are young.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

CiMa said:


> Oh and whatever Darko did/didn't do in practice, it wouldn't have mattered. Larry Brown does NOT play young players. Did you even watch the Olympics?


Dwyane Wade didn't play? Larry Brown didn't play the right players, but he did play young players. Lebron, Wade and Boozer did get on the court, while Melo, Okafor and Amare didn't.


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## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

HKF said:


> LMAO, you're getting all worked up. It's obvious you haven't had your Junior juice. Just relax and count to 3. He was draft at 17 (and turned 18 a few days later, big damn deal) and he's 20 now. What's your point? Kobe was drafted at 17? Jermaine O'Neal was drafted at 17? Andrew Bynum was drafted at 17? Will Darko have a better 3rd year than Bynum's rookie year? Darko will be 20.


And you'd think people would learn from Jermaine O'Neal that a teenage big man sitting on the bench behind good players doesn't equal bust.




> If height was overrated, every undersized big man would succeed in the NBA. Guards under 5'11 would be all-stars. Height matters in the pros.


Most players have a strong correlation between height and wingspan. Those that do not can succeed, if it is favorable for their wingspan, because wingspan is more important. If you're not able to give an actual gameplay reason (ex. they won't be able to block the ball with their head) I will consider the debate over.



> Oh and Detroit drafted Carlos Delfino and is already very upset with him. He is looking like he wasn't a good pick (for the Pistons anyway).


They're not mad at Delfino anymore.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

HKF said:


> LMAO, you're getting all worked up. It's obvious you haven't had your Junior juice. Just relax and count to 3. He was draft at 17 (and turned 18 a few days later, big damn deal) and he's 20 now. What's your point? Kobe was drafted at 17? Jermaine O'Neal was drafted at 17? Andrew Bynum was drafted at 17? Will Darko have a better 3rd year than Bynum's rookie year? Darko will be 20.


None of the guys you mentioned are FOREIGNERS. Nice try though.





> If height was overrated, every undersized big man would succeed in the NBA. Guards under 5'11 would be all-stars. Height matters in the pros.


You're missing my point again. I clearly mentioned that Jason Maxiell has a freakishly long wing span. When you have a wingspan like that, height IS overrated. Maxiell and Ben Wallace are the same size. Charles Barkely too. Alonzo Mourning played C at 6'10. Heck, Muggsy Bogues made a heck of a career. Damon Stoudamire, Allen Iverson, the list goes on and on. Height is overrated. Wingspans are far more important. If Tayshaun Prince didn't have his wing span, he would be a scrub a dub dub.



> Oh and Detroit drafted Carlos Delfino and is already very upset with him. He is looking like he wasn't a good pick (for the Pistons anyway). Didn't Detroit draft Mateen Cleaves and Rodney White back to back? What happened with those picks from their "super scouts?"


You know what they did with Cleaves and White? They traded them away. Wow, Darko is still with the team. Why wasn't he traded if he was a bad pick?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

ian said:


> And you'd think people would learn from Jermaine O'Neal that a teenage big man sitting on the bench behind good players doesn't equal bust.


Jermaine O'Neal is a one time thing. Why would you think what happened to O'Neal has any correlation to Darko? It's more than likely that O'Neal is the exception, while Darko is the rule. Every situation is different. I'd put money on Darko becoming the next Joe Kleine before becoming the next Jermaine O'Neal.



> Most players have a strong correlation between height and wingspan. Those that do not can succeed, if it is favorable for their wingspan, because wingspan is more important. If you're not able to give an actual gameplay reason (ex. they won't be able to block the ball with their head) I will consider the debate over.


What debate? How can we have a debate, when you guys are so far gone in defending a guy who has no reason to be defended? He has done and shown nothing. How he is different from Skita? At least Skita dominated summer league. What has Darko dominated? 



> They're not mad at Delfino anymore.


That's what they say publically, but who knows what's going on behind closed doors?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

CiMa said:


> None of the guys you mentioned are FOREIGNERS. Nice try though.


They're foreigners so that means it's okay to be a bust? Explain Skita to me? 



> You're missing my point again. I clearly mentioned that Jason Maxiell has a freakishly long wing span. When you have a wingspan like that, height IS overrated. Maxiell and Ben Wallace are the same size. Charles Barkely too. Alonzo Mourning played C at 6'10. Heck, Muggsy Bogues made a heck of a career. Damon Stoudamire, Allen Iverson, the list goes on and on. Height is overrated. Wingspans are far more important. If Tayshaun Prince didn't have his wing span, he would be a scrub a dub dub.


Every great player in this league doesn't have a long wingspan. Kobe for instance. You pick Tyrone "Mugsy" Bogues, Charles Barkley and then now to Jason Maxiell. 

You basically take 20+ years of basketball anomalies and make it seem like this is the norm. Many guys have long wingspans and don't make it in the league. It's about talent. Not about wingspans.



> You know what they did with Cleaves and White? They traded them away. Wow, Darko is still with the team. Why wasn't he traded if he was a bad pick?


You said the Pistons scouts were great, did you not? Then why did they draft two busts back to back? Great scouts don't to do that? The Spurs have great scouts. The Sonics have great scouts. Those teams rarely draft busts.


----------



## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

HKF said:


> Jermaine O'Neal is a one time thing. Why would you think what happened to O'Neal has any correlation to Darko? It's more than likely that O'Neal is the exception, while Darko is the rule. Every situation is different. I'd put money on Darko becoming the next Joe Kleine before becoming the next Jermaine O'Neal.


Why do I think a 17 year old left handed big man entering the NBA as a first round draft pick that received little playing time behind a talented front court has any correlation to Darko?



> What debate? How can we have a debate, when you guys are so far gone in defending a guy who has no reason to be defended? He has done and shown nothing. How he is different from Skita? At least Skita dominated summer league. What has Darko dominated?


I was talking about the importance of wingspan vs. height. You haven't explained any gameplay reason why Maxiell needs more height.


----------



## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

DWadeistheTruth said:


> Does anyone still hold hope for Darko?


i still think darko will turn out fine. even if he's a backup center in the league those are valuable positions. honestly I'm worried about detroit being able to resign him. I understand that if he was the best phenom ever he would be playing better now. but nevertheless u dont get many 7 footers like him. I'd be happy if he played his entire career in detroit.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

hey I love maxiell, is there any chance he could be like corliss williamson and be a powerful SF? I'd also really like to reduce tayshaun's minutes(I think tayshaun will be more effective w/ fewer minutes neway).


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

kamego said:


> Alright I am done talking on this thread for 2 years. If anyone wants to save my comments and talk to me about how wrong I was then, go for it  I for one will wait until a players rookie contract is over before I call them a bust.


am counting.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

ian said:


> Why do I think a 17 year old left handed big man entering the NBA as a first round draft pick that received little playing time behind a talented front court has any correlation to Darko?


What I'm saying is, just because O'Neal took a few years to develop, doesn't mean Darko will go down the same path he did. He will more than likely be a bust. The chances of him being O'Neal are remote.



> I was talking about the importance of wingspan vs. height. You haven't explained any gameplay reason why Maxiell needs more height.


I didn't say Maxiell needs more height at all. I said he's going to be a great fit and lauded the selection when it was made. He's perfect for them. I said he'll be good, not because of his wingspan, but because of his athleticism and aggressiveness. He has a long wingspan, but if he was timid like Darko, he wouldn't even sniff the league.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

yavoon said:


> hey I love maxiell, is there any chance he could be like corliss williamson and be a powerful SF? I'd also really like to reduce tayshaun's minutes(I think tayshaun will be more effective w/ fewer minutes neway).


He looks like a pure PF to me and he'll be do fine as a backup 4.


----------



## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

Darko had 13 and 6 today.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> He looks like a pure PF to me and he'll be do fine as a backup 4.


as long as he can guard a SF(or a reasonable amt of sf's) he can play as an off the bench mismatch. which IMO would provide a lot more value than simply being a PF. I also heard he's incredibly athletic. 

and corliss plays pretty much like a pure PF too.


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

CiMa said:


> Oh and whatever Darko did/didn't do in practice, it wouldn't have mattered. Larry Brown does NOT play young players. Did you even watch the Olympics?


He played D Wade alot. Yeah I guess he aint that young. For your standars.


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

CiMa said:


> None of the guys you mentioned are FOREIGNERS. Nice try though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cause people like you.


----------



## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

http://www.nba.com/athens2004/usa_stats.html


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2104064

Can you say one of the biggest busts in NBA history? All you have to do is look who was taken after Darko. I rest my case.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Hehe and yet other than Okafor, they all played more minutes per game then Darko ever did.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

To guys who saw some Kentucky basketball last year, how does Maxiell compare to Chuck Hayes? I think Hayes will make it in this league, he's a fighter and a damn good defender despite his height. Unlike Maxiell, he'll probably have to make the transition to SF.

And it's weak to give up on Darko now. He's got great footwork and is extremely quick. The guy isn't 'raw', he just needs time on the floor and experience to groom himself and adjust to the NBA life quicker. Once he does, he'll be a 18-8 player in this league easily.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

HKF said:


> They're foreigners so that means it's okay to be a bust? Explain Skita to me?


What? You're not even making any sense. None of those guys you mentioned are busts and neither is Darko. Foreigners usually take time to develop, longer than US players, look up the history. Darko should be given more time because of his ridiculously messed up situation.





> Every great player in this league doesn't have a long wingspan. Kobe for instance. You pick Tyrone "Mugsy" Bogues, Charles Barkley and then now to Jason Maxiell.
> 
> You basically take 20+ years of basketball anomalies and make it seem like this is the norm. Many guys have long wingspans and don't make it in the league. It's about talent. Not about wingspans.


What exactly are you trying to say about Jason Maxiell? He has talent and he has a huge wingspan. People like you were underrating him all year long because of his height, then in the pre-draft camps (and now summer league, for what it's worth) he is proving that height is not an issue. He went from undrafted to 1st round pick because he proved my point. Jason Maxiell is a younger version of Ben Wallace (more scoring, less rebounding). If you have talent and a huge wingspan, height is NOT an issue.





> You said the Pistons scouts were great, did you not? Then why did they draft two busts back to back? Great scouts don't to do that? The Spurs have great scouts. The Sonics have great scouts. Those teams rarely draft busts.


Mistakes don't take away from greatness unless they are done over and over for an extended period of time. It's funny you mentioned the Sonics though. Their great scouts drafted Robert Swift. In 16 games he averaged .9 PPG and .3 RPG. Is he a bust too? What's his issue?


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

DWadeistheTruth said:


> Cause people like you.


Wow, really? Darko wasn't traded because there's people in the Pistons' front office that actually have a brain and still believe in Darko because he hasn't been given a chance to prove himself? Wow, what a bunch of idiots.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

CiMa said:


> What? You're not even making any sense. None of those guys you mentioned are busts and neither is Darko. Foreigners usually take time to develop, longer than US players, look up the history. Darko should be given more time because of his ridiculously messed up situation.


You used Darko being a foreigner as an excuse why he didn't do anything, when I brought up other players. So explain why he can't be Skita? There is that clear enough.



> What exactly are you trying to say about Jason Maxiell? He has talent and he has a huge wingspan. People like you were underrating him all year long because of his height, then in the pre-draft camps (and now summer league, for what it's worth) he is proving that height is not an issue. He went from undrafted to 1st round pick because he proved my point. Jason Maxiell is a younger version of Ben Wallace (more scoring, less rebounding). If you have talent and a huge wingspan, height is NOT an issue.


I didn't underrate nor overrate Maxiell. Had he gone to any other team, I wouldn't have liked his selection. However on a team like Detroit that emphasises tough physical play, he is a perect fit. So you're people like you comment is off base, because you'll have to pull where I said he wasn't talented. I said he was at a disadvantage because of his height, which he is. Just because he plays like Ben Wallace doesn't mean on the pro level, against pro athletes, that this is who he will be. They didn't draft him to be a starter. Saying he's the next Ben Wallace, is a little bit much. He has to prove that first. I also said to make in the league you need talent and athleticism, if you're undersized. The two things that Maxiell has to make up for his lack of height, are wingspan and athleticism. He can jump out of the gym. Just because you're a Cincy fan and I'm supposed to be impressed that you know about Bearcats players? Do you think you're the only one? Sell that garbage to draft city. I never dissed Maxiell anywhere.



> Mistakes don't take away from greatness unless they are done over and over for an extended period of time. It's funny you mentioned the Sonics though. Their great scouts drafted Robert Swift. In 16 games he averaged .9 PPG and .3 RPG. Is he a bust too? What's his issue?


Except the Sonics are perfectly fine with letting Jerome James go and giving Robert Swift PT. Sonic fans might not be so forgiving, if they passed on Emeka Okafor, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng and Andre Iguodala. I have no doubt that Robert Swift will be better than Darko. Robert plays like a true 5 man and tries takes it strong to the rim and has excellent defensive instincts. Since people like myself have seen clips of him from HS and other games (Roundball Classic & McDonald's), we kind of know what he can do.

There is a reason why Mystery Euro players aren't going high anymore. No more hiding in workouts and drills. Now you have to actually play against these boys and some of them just aren't good. Remember Nemanja? He was the next Darko. Maybe that's why he keeps pulling out of the draft.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> You used Darko being a foreigner as an excuse why he didn't do anything, when I brought up other players. So explain why he can't be Skita? There is that clear enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ur just being too harsh ona 20 year old 7 footer. I guess it makes a slightly more interesting thread but its kinda silly reading ur posts because to me ur just using a lot of hyperbole and very little restraint.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> Robert plays like a true 5 man and tries takes it strong to the rim and has excellent defensive instincts. Since people like myself have seen clips of him from college and other games, we kind of know what he can do.
> t.


seen robert swift perform in college have u? now that is a very interesting video. care to release it to the rest of us?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

yavoon said:


> ur just being too harsh ona 20 year old 7 footer. I guess it makes a slightly more interesting thread but its kinda silly reading ur posts because to me ur just using a lot of hyperbole and very little restraint.


Please elaborate. Last I checked he is in a man's league and is not a little boy. You live in America? Since when was age 20 a little kid?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

yavoon said:


> seen robert swift perform in college have u? now that is a very interesting video. care to release it to the rest of us?


It was obviously a typo as he was a HS player last year. Oops I made one spelling mistake. Hey, it happens.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> It was obviously a typo as he was a HS player last year. Oops I made one spelling mistake. Hey, it happens.


oh because I JUST heard a rant about how players now have to perform against "real competition" in order to be deemed worthy. so I guess the 17 year olds were really skilled that year.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> Please elaborate. Last I checked he is in a man's league and is not a little boy. You live in America? Since when was age 20 a little kid?


in terms of developing big men it is quite young. but its ok u can give up on him if u wish. If I was GM i would actually hold onto him. trading him now would just be showing contempt and stupidity.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

yavoon said:


> oh because I JUST heard a rant about how players now have to perform against "real competition" in order to be deemed worthy. so I guess the 17 year olds were really skilled that year.


Of course they were. Did you not see, that they had 8 HS kids drafted in the first 19 picks?

Dwight Howard - drafted 1
Josh Smith - drafted 17
JR Smith - drafted 18
Shaun Livingston - draft 4
Sebastian Telfair - drafted 13 
Al Jefferson - drafted 15
Dorell Wright - drafted 19
Robert Swift - drafted 12

And now: Marvin Williams (this year) - drafted 2

All in the same HS class. Best HS class by far since 1995.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

yavoon said:


> in terms of developing big men it is quite young. but its ok u can give up on him if u wish. If I was GM i would actually hold onto him. trading him now would just be showing contempt and stupidity.


Now this I agree with. Dumars is going to do like Kiki did with Skita. He's going to hold on to him as long as he can and when Darko busts, it will be because he was simply not tough enough, that way he can deflect himself from blame when people ask why he didn't draft Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh or Carmelo Anthony.

Even though Skita wanted out, Kiki wouldn't trade him, until he exhausted his trade value to the lowest possible level. That way Kiki couldn't be burned for wasting a top 5 pick on a guy who couldn't even contribute in the league.


----------



## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

HKF said:


> You used Darko being a foreigner as an excuse why he didn't do anything, when I brought up other players. So explain why he can't be Skita? There is that clear enough.


Of course he could end up like Skita, but that doesn't mean he's going to. I'm sure everyone thought Jermaine O'Neal was going to end up like Leon Smith. It's funny what happens when you're actually given a chance to play. Wasn't Jermaine playing behind Rasheed Wallace, Brian Grant, Arvydas Sabonis, and Dale Davis? Darko is playing behind Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace, Antonio McDyess, Mehemet Okur (his rookie season). All he needs is a chance.





> I didn't underrate nor overrate Maxiell. Had he gone to any other team, I wouldn't have liked his selection. However on a team like Detroit that emphasises tough physical play, he is a perect fit. So you're people like you comment is off base, because you'll have to pull where I said he wasn't talented. I said he was at a disadvantage because of his height, which he is. Just because he plays like Ben Wallace doesn't mean on the pro level, against pro athletes, that this is who he will be. They didn't draft him to be a starter. Saying he's the next Ben Wallace, is a little bit much. He has to prove that first. I also said to make in the league you need talent and athleticism, if you're undersized. The two things that Maxiell has to make up for his lack of height, are wingspan and athleticism. He can jump out of the gym. Just because you're a Cincy fan and I'm supposed to be impressed that you know about Bearcats players? Do you think you're the only one? Sell that garbage to draft city. I never dissed Maxiell anywhere.


Well what you said that stood out to me initially was that Maxiell was at a disadvantage because he is undersized. My arguement is that he isn't because he makes up for it with everything else. You even said it yourself. Maxiell isn't at a disadvantage at all.

And sell what to draftcity? I watched Maxiell all four years at UC, I can guarantee you no one at draftcity can say the same thing. I was always a firm believer that Maxiell would make it into the league because height in his case is not an issue. How tall was Charles Oakley? Maxiell reminds me of him (and Ben Wallace) and as I recall, Oakley wasn't a very big guy. He was 6'8 at best. It wouldn't matter what team Maxiell was drafted to, he could make an impact anywhere he went.





> Except the Sonics are perfectly fine with letting Jerome James go and giving Robert Swift PT. Sonic fans might not be so forgiving, if they passed on Emeka Okafor, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng and Andre Iguodala. I have no doubt that Robert Swift will be better than Darko. Robert plays like a true 5 man and tries takes it strong to the rim and has excellent defensive instincts. Since people like myself have seen clips of him from HS and other games (Roundball Classic & McDonald's), we kind of know what he can do.


The Sonics have no problem with letting James go? Really? Show me a link, I want to see some proof of this.



> There is a reason why Mystery Euro players aren't going high anymore. No more hiding in workouts and drills. Now you have to actually play against these boys and some of them just aren't good. Remember Nemanja? He was the next Darko. Maybe that's why he keeps pulling out of the draft.


And if Darko proves them wrong, then what? Are they going to go high again?


----------



## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

HKF said:


> Please elaborate. Last I checked he is in a man's league and is not a little boy. You live in America? Since when was age 20 a little kid?


Age 20 for a big man in the NBA is definitely considered a kid. For every KG, Amare, and Dwight, there is a JO, Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler, and Kwame Brown.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> Of course they were. Did you not see, that they had 8 HS kids drafted in the first 19 picks?
> 
> Dwight Howard - drafted 1
> Josh Smith - drafted 17
> ...


none of those ppl have made an impact yet. sure they all got potential but honestly, u made it sound like ppl had to perform against real men who could really play right now. none of those fit that bill when they were 17. lebron did.

also my guess is he facecd all those ppl in all star games, and lets face it all star games are glorified practices.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> Now this I agree with. Dumars is going to do like Kiki did with Skita. He's going to hold on to him as long as he can and when Darko busts, it will be because he was simply not tough enough, that way he can deflect himself from blame when people ask why he didn't draft Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh or Carmelo Anthony.
> 
> Even though Skita wanted out, Kiki wouldn't trade him, until he exhausted his trade value to the lowest possible level. That way Kiki couldn't be burned for wasting a top 5 pick on a guy who couldn't even contribute in the league.


no GM in the league that year would have drafted wade over darko. the consensus was lebron/darko/melo. with some ppl putting melo above darko, but that was a minority.

u might as well ask why everyone waited so long on gilbert arenas and michael redd.


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## Scinos (Jun 10, 2003)

CiMa said:


> The Sonics have no problem with letting James go? Really? Show me a link, I want to see some proof of this.


James is going to get a decent contract after his playoff performance, and he will walk. The Sonics have drafted Robert Swift and Johan Petro, in back to back years, so they've been preparing for his departure. Remember, they've already been burned by JJ in a contract year, the same mistake won't be made twice.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

yavoon said:


> none of those ppl have made an impact yet. sure they all got potential but honestly, u made it sound like ppl had to perform against real men who could really play right now. none of those fit that bill when they were 17. lebron did.


JR Smith, Josh Smith, Dwight Howard, Al Jefferson, Sebastian Telfair and Shaun Livingston haven't made an impact? Are you watching the NBA games at all?

I don't know what to say. Lebron was a star off the bat, but Dwight Howard as a 19 year old big man avg. 12/10.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

yavoon said:


> u might as well ask why everyone waited so long on gilbert arenas and michael redd.


There is no need to ask. Gilbert Arenas was a person who NBA scouts thought would have a tough time transitioning to the point guard position, not to mention he was one of the most immature players in the draft. He's a jokester, but they took it as him not being serious.

As for Michael Redd, the 2000 draft looks like the worst draft of the last 10 years. Everybody got it wrong.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

ian said:


> Geez, I don't know, because Brandon Hunter has more than 200 more minutes played? You purposely tried to make it seem like Hunter had more points while playing less, which isn't the case. Now you're bringing up different stats and ignoring what I was saying.
> 
> The truth is, Hunter has more points per 48 minutes than Darko. While I think that's irrelevant to Darko's future/status as a bust, you had to have seen that Hunter had many more minutes played, yet you purposely stated it in a misleading way. There goes your credibility as far as I'm concerned.


Projected out on a /36 basis, to give a decent idea of what they'd do in starter's minutes, Hunter produces at a 12.6 p/g & 10.7 r/g pace. The mighty mighty Darko, on the other hand, puts up a 10/7.5 line. What that says there is that Darko is being outplayed by a major scrub. Will Darko necessarily wash out of the show and join Jiri Welsch in the Uzbekistani Basketball Federation? No. But maybe his supporters can finally admit that Dumars should have chosen Wade or Bosh instead?


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## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> Projected out on a /36 basis, to give a decent idea of what they'd do in starter's minutes, Hunter produces at a 12.6 p/g & 10.7 r/g pace. The mighty mighty Darko, on the other hand, puts up a 10/7.5 line. What that says there is that Darko is being outplayed by a major scrub. Will Darko necessarily wash out of the show and join Jiri Welsch in the Uzbekistani Basketball Federation? No. But maybe his supporters can finally admit that Dumars should have chosen Wade or Bosh instead?


Hunter was 23 and 24 during those seasons. Darko did not have enough quality minutes to project him, either (meaning, 2 minutes of garbage time with all backups isn't good to use as a predicator)


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> There is no need to ask. Gilbert Arenas was a person who NBA scouts thought would have a tough time transitioning to the point guard position, not to mention he was one of the most immature players in the draft. He's a jokester, but they took it as him not being serious.
> 
> As for Michael Redd, the 2000 draft looks like the worst draft of the last 10 years. Everybody got it wrong.


obviously u missed my point by 18 ****ing miles. my point was that its impractical to tell dumars he should have taken wade instead when no other GM would have taken wade instead.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

yavoon said:


> no GM in the league that year would have drafted wade over darko. the consensus was lebron/darko/melo. with some ppl putting melo above darko, but that was a minority.
> 
> u might as well ask why everyone waited so long on gilbert arenas and michael redd.



I guess I must be a genius, I thought Wade the best that year, and had James and Melo second and third. Now, while Wade has been everything I expected, LBJ has been better than I ever anticipated. I didn't expect him to light up the NBA the second he walked on the court and get seriously discussed with Kobe & T-Mac year two. After reading about Darko in a Chad Ford column, I knew that he'd be a bust. :biggrin:


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> JR Smith, Josh Smith, Dwight Howard, Al Jefferson, Sebastian Telfair and Shaun Livingston haven't made an impact? Are you watching the NBA games at all?
> 
> I don't know what to say. Lebron was a star off the bat, but Dwight Howard as a 19 year old big man avg. 12/10.


howard i'll giv eu somewhat, but what doe sit matter? so swift played against them in a stupid all star game. thats hardly massive competition. u make it sound like swift was some proven commodity when all he really was was great potential as a 17 year old who himself had never played good competition in a real game.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

CiMa said:


> Of course he could end up like Skita, but that doesn't mean he's going to. I'm sure everyone thought Jermaine O'Neal was going to end up like Leon Smith. It's funny what happens when you're actually given a chance to play. Wasn't Jermaine playing behind Rasheed Wallace, Brian Grant, Arvydas Sabonis, and Dale Davis? Darko is playing behind Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace, Antonio McDyess, Mehemet Okur (his rookie season). All he needs is a chance.


O'Neal was traded for Dale Davis. He was behind Grant, Sabonis and Wallace. However, Rasheed Wallace also raved about Jermaine O'Neal saying he was giving them the business in practice. Not to mention, his first two years even though his numbers are meager, he still has better numbers than Darko did. 

O'Neal also had to suffer through a lockout season, hurting his development. He was also picked No. 17 in the 1996 draft, which had AI, Camby, Ray Allen, Stephon, Peja, Nash, Kobe, Kittles, Antoine Walker, Abdur-Rahim. Many of those guys were proven coming in and more highly regarded then O'Neal. 

Now Darko was drafted No. 2. After the Chosen One. Look who O'Neal went after, look who Darko went after and then look who he was regarded highly over (Hinrich, Wade, Melo, Ford, Kaman, Bosh, Ridnour, Collison, Josh Howard, Marquis Daniels)



> Well what you said that stood out to me initially was that Maxiell was at a disadvantage because he is undersized. My arguement is that he isn't because he makes up for it with everything else. You even said it yourself. Maxiell isn't at a disadvantage at all.


He is at disadvantage, because he is a smaller man then his counterparts. Do you deny that the reason Ben Wallace is so effective is because he outworks every single big man he faces? He gives up size, but he makes up for it, in hustle, effort, athleticism and heart. Maxiell will do the same, but don't sit here and say a 6'5-6'6 PF isn't giving up a lot when they have to go against a Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Amare Stoudemire and Dirk Nowitzki. 



> And sell what to draftcity? I watched Maxiell all four years at UC, I can guarantee you no one at draftcity can say the same thing. I was always a firm believer that Maxiell would make it into the league because height in his case is not an issue. How tall was Charles Oakley? Maxiell reminds me of him (and Ben Wallace) and as I recall, Oakley wasn't a very big guy. He was 6'8 at best. It wouldn't matter what team Maxiell was drafted to, he could make an impact anywhere he went.


Oakley was listed for his entire career at 6'9. 



> The Sonics have no problem with letting James go? Really? Show me a link, I want to see some proof of this.


Sonics Mod just told you. He isn't coming back to Seattle.



> And if Darko proves them wrong, then what? Are they going to go high again?


If monkey's flew out of my butt, I'd need preparation H cream to soothe it. He isn't going to prove them wrong.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> I guess I must be a genius, I thought Wade the best that year, and had James and Melo second and third. Now, while Wade has been everything I expected, LBJ has been better than I ever anticipated. I didn't expect him to light up the NBA the second he walked on the court and get seriously discussed with Kobe & T-Mac year two. After reading about Darko in a Chad Ford column, I knew that he'd be a bust. :biggrin:


yah everyone on a forum is a draft genius. congratufrickinglations.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

yavoon said:


> obviously u missed my point by 18 ****ing miles. my point was that its impractical to tell dumars he should have taken wade instead when no other GM would have taken wade instead.


I didn't miss your point at all. You don't have a point, when you say the HS kids didn't make an impact last year. You obviously need to watch the NBA more often (other than the Pistons).


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## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

HKF said:


> O'Neal was traded for Dale Davis. He was behind Grant, Sabonis and Wallace. However, Rasheed Wallace also raved about Jermaine O'Neal saying he was giving them the business in practice. Not to mention, his first two years even though his numbers are meager, he still has better numbers than Darko did.


Do you realize that all the Pistons rave about how good Darko is and how hard he works?


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> I didn't miss your point at all. You don't have a point, when you say the HS kids didn't make an impact last year. You obviously need to watch the NBA more often (other than the Pistons).


**edited**

the point I am trying to get through to u is that no GM was going to take wade over darko so saying that dumars would be under fire for not taking wade is retarded.

at worst he can be under fire for not taking melo the only player who really was in competition for darko for #2.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

yavoon said:


> howard i'll giv eu somewhat, but what doe sit matter? so swift played against them in a stupid all star game. thats hardly massive competition. u make it sound like swift was some proven commodity when all he really was was great potential as a 17 year old who himself had never played good competition in a real game.


Except Robert Swift is going to play in his 2nd year. Unlike Detroit which brought in McDyess, the Sonics are comfortable, even though Swift barely played at all last year, with his development enough to throw him into the fire. It's not like they don't have Fortson, Radman and Collison there in the frontcourt either. 

Swift will be playing in his 2nd year after not playing in his first, that's still more than Darko. While the Pistons signed McDyess and then drafted two more big men in Maxiell and Amir Johnson (who is skinny right now, but once he fills out, oh my goodness) almost two weeks ago. If they were so set on Darko, why do they keep drafting more bigs? I read an article and Larry Brown was raving about Amir Johnson's athleticism.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

ian said:


> Darko did not have enough quality minutes to project him, either (meaning, 2 minutes of garbage time with all backups isn't good to use as a predicator)


Neither did Hunter. The point is that Hunter scores and rebounds at a higher clip than Darko. And neither is anything over a garbage time player. Darko'll eventually get some burn somewhere because he's 7'1", while Hunter will always be an end of the roster guy because he combines Charles Barkley's height with Vitaly Potapenko's athleticism. At least he's energetic and plays hard in practise.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

yavoon said:


> **edited**
> 
> the point I am trying to get through to u is that no GM was going to take wade over darko so saying that dumars would be under fire for not taking wade is retarded.


I'm obviously illiterate and you use words like "ur?" :krazy: He still took Darko over Melo and Bosh and they are both miles ahead of that kid. Miles. 



> at worst he can be under fire for not taking melo the only player who really was in competition for darko for #2.


I bet this was the same reasoning used when Bowie was selected over Jordan years back. Hmmm... "How was he supposed to know those other guys would get good?" So much for talent evaluation huh?

I'll keep being illiterate though. I love how fired up you guys get over a colossal bust. This is fun. :clap:


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

HKF said:


> O'Neal was traded for Dale Davis. He was behind Grant, Sabonis and Wallace. However, Rasheed Wallace also raved about Jermaine O'Neal saying he was giving them the business in practice. Not to mention, his first two years even though his numbers are meager, he still has better numbers than Darko did.
> 
> O'Neal also had to suffer through a lockout season, hurting his development. He was also picked No. 17 in the 1996 draft, which had AI, Camby, Ray Allen, Stephon, Peja, Nash, Kobe, Kittles, Antoine Walker, Abdur-Rahim. Many of those guys were proven coming in and more highly regarded then O'Neal.
> 
> Now Darko was drafted No. 2. After the Chosen One. Look who O'Neal went after, look who Darko went after and then look who he was regarded highly over (Hinrich, Wade, Melo, Ford, Kaman, Bosh, Ridnour, Collison, Josh Howard, Marquis Daniels)


Darko was dealing with contract issues his rookie year, thus not getting to play in the summer league. Then in the NBA finals he broke his hand and again missed out on summer league play. So JO can have excuses but Darko can't?





> He is at disadvantage, because he is a smaller man then his counterparts. Do you deny that the reason Ben Wallace is so effective is because he outworks every single big man he faces? He gives up size, but he makes up for it, in hustle, effort, athleticism and heart. Maxiell will do the same, but don't sit here and say a 6'5-6'6 PF isn't giving up a lot when they have to go against a Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Amare Stoudemire and Dirk Nowitzki.


He's 6'7, not 6'5. Of course he's giving up a little bit, but with his wingspan, it's not going to be very noticeable. 





> Oakley was listed for his entire career at 6'9.


I read 6'8 at bbr, but it doesn't really matter. 2 inches isn't a big difference.

I can also bring up Ex-UC player Danny Fortson. He was 6'7-6'8 and did just fine. He is more talented on the offensive end than Maxiell, but he's not nearly the defender Maxiell is. 




> If monkey's flew out of my butt, I'd need preparation H cream to soothe it. He isn't going to prove them wrong.


Nice intelligent contribution there. I'm also impressed with your ability to see into the future. While you're at it, why don't you tell me what kind of career the best player out of the 4th grade class is going to have.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> Except Robert Swift is going to play in his 2nd year. Unlike Detroit which brought in McDyess, the Sonics are comfortable, even though Swift barely played at all last year, with his development enough to throw him into the fire. It's not like they don't have Fortson, Radman and Collison there in the frontcourt either.
> 
> Swift will be playing in his 2nd year after not playing in his first, that's still more than Darko. While the Pistons signed McDyess and then drafted two more big men in Maxiell and Amir Johnson (who is skinny right now, but once he fills out, oh my goodness) almost two weeks ago. If they were so set on Darko, why do they keep drafting more bigs? I read an article and Larry Brown was raving about Amir Johnson's athleticism.


larry brown goes sweet and sour on players constantly, he means nothing. he also saise a lot of things out of emotion(duh he's emotional) and not out of scout like observation.

mcdyess was an opportunity pickup, and a great one too, just like a lot of dumars FA moves. u dont stop making ur team beter JUST to throw someone into the fire. tho I guess if u never want to win a championship(hello seattle) u can keep doing it.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> I'm obviously illiterate and you use words like "ur?" :krazy: He still took Darko over Melo and Bosh and they are both miles ahead of that kid. Miles.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no, but it was the reason hakeem was selected over jordan. bowie was selected on need and turned out to be a retarded pick.


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## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

HKF said:


> Except Robert Swift is going to play in his 2nd year.


Based on what? Darko so far is an all-star compared to what Swift has contributed, and Swift was behind a much lesser frontcourt.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

ian said:


> Based on what? Darko so far is an all-star compared to what Swift has contributed, and Swift was behind a much lesser frontcourt.


:nonono:


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

CiMa said:


> Darko was dealing with contract issues his rookie year, thus not getting to play in the summer league. Then in the NBA finals he broke his hand and again missed out on summer league play. So JO can have excuses but Darko can't?


Wait a minute. Darko breaking his hand is something that was unfortunate. Jermaine O'Neal as a 19 year old soon to be 3rd year player, can't control the NBA locking out the players. Let's be real, they aren't the same.



> He's 6'7, not 6'5. Of course he's giving up a little bit, but with his wingspan, it's not going to be very noticeable.


I meant Maxiell. He was not listed at 6'7 at Chicago. He was listed at 6'5 w/o shoes, 6'6 with. Ben Wallace, I'm sure he's 6'7. 



> I can also bring up Ex-UC player Danny Fortson. He was 6'7-6'8 and did just fine. He is more talented on the offensive end than Maxiell, but he's not nearly the defender Maxiell is.


I think Sonics fans would beg to differ. He's a terrific rebounder, but Fortson's main problem that will help Maxiell over him, is that Maxiell is a superior athlete. He can jump out of the gym. Fortson gets by, because he is a goon. Plain and simple.



> Nice intelligent contribution there. I'm also impressed with your ability to see into the future. While you're at it, why don't you tell me what kind of career the best player out of the 4th grade class is going to have.


The best player out of the rising 9th grade class is easy, because they all gather to the shoe camps. 4th grade is a little difficult, simply because not every soon to be big time ball player, even plays basketball competitive yet. Sorry can't do it. I wish I could see the future, I merely say what I feel. You don't like it, that's kind of your own problem.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

yavoon said:


> larry brown goes sweet and sour on players constantly, he means nothing. he also saise a lot of things out of emotion(duh he's emotional) and not out of scout like observation.
> 
> mcdyess was an opportunity pickup, and a great one too, just like a lot of dumars FA moves. u dont stop making ur team beter JUST to throw someone into the fire. tho I guess if u never want to win a championship(hello seattle) u can keep doing it.


I didn't say McDyess wasn't a good pickup. He was an excellent pick (considering he stayed healthy). However, picking up McDyess and bringing back Elden Campbell pretty much told you that Darko was not ready to play any minutes again. Now this year, they bring in Maxiell (and Campbell retires), which means once again, Darko is the 5th big on the depth chart. Then they drafted a project in Amir Johnson and are going to send him to the NBDL. A year of filling out and I'd expect him to get more tick then Darko in 2006-07. Rick Pitino loved his potential, but he was picked number 56 in the draft not No. 2.

Is he (Darko) going to play at all next year?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

CiMa said:


> Darko was dealing with contract issues his rookie year, thus not getting to play in the summer league. Then in the NBA finals he broke his hand and again missed out on summer league play. So JO can have excuses but Darko can't?


And yet, JO produced at a much higher rate than Darko his first two years.



CiMa said:


> He's 6'7, not 6'5. Of course he's giving up a little bit, but with his wingspan, it's not going to be very noticeable.


He isn't even 6'7" in shoes. His official measurements from Chicago:

Maxiell, Jason 6' 5" 6' 6¼" 257.6 7' 3¼" 8' 11"


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

ian said:


> Based on what? Darko so far is an all-star compared to what Swift has contributed, and Swift was behind a much lesser frontcourt.


Really? Swift sat the bench last year and is going to play in 2005-06. I doubt the Sonics mind much, as they had him getting stronger and they won the Northwest Division. 

He's probably going to play more than Darko next year. He also was drafted No. 14, not No. 2. Number 2 picks are supposed to be franchise level players. Darko is far from the franchise.


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## Scinos (Jun 10, 2003)

ian said:


> Based on what? Darko so far is an all-star compared to what Swift has contributed, and Swift was behind a much lesser frontcourt.


Based on Seattle drafting him with the knowledge that he would develop for a year, then contribute once Jerome James and Vitaly Potapenko were off the books.

As for those who say Swift didn't go up against any competition, he established himself as one of the top big men going against guys like Dwight Howard and Al Jefferson in ABCD camps and all-star games. He also played against NBA players for two years before he was drafted, at Tim Grover's big man camp. He went up against Eddy Curry, Rasheed Wallace and Jermaine O'Neal. Despite being much younger and not having a developed body, he didn't back down and he held his own.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

HKF said:


> Wait a minute. Darko breaking his hand is something that was unfortunate. Jermaine O'Neal as a 19 year old soon to be 3rd year player, can't control the NBA locking out the players. Let's be real, they aren't the same.


So what if they're not the same? They're still obstacles. Jermaine O'Neal can't control the lockout, correct. But Darko can't just magically fix his hand.




> I think Sonics fans would beg to differ. He's a terrific rebounder, but Fortson's main problem that will help Maxiell over him, is that Maxiell is a superior athlete. He can jump out of the gym. Fortson gets by, because he is a goon. Plain and simple.


What? Please re-phrase that, I have no idea what you're saying. Fortson may have more of an offensive game and he is a better rebounder, but his defense is atrocious. Maxiell is a great defender and is no slouch when it comes to rebounding. His offensive talent rivals Fortson, although it's probably slightly worse.




> The best player out of the rising 9th grade class is easy, because they all gather to the shoe camps. 4th grade is a little difficult, simply because not every soon to be big time ball player, even plays basketball competitive yet. Sorry can't do it. I wish I could see the future, I merely say what I feel. You don't like it, that's kind of your own problem.


I have no problem with it, but you make yourself look ignorant for saying things like that. If Darko turns out to be a bust, then yeah you can kid yourself into thinking that you are a genius and you knew it all a long, but if he isn't a bust, you're going to look like an idiot.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> And yet, JO produced at a much higher rate than Darko his first two years.


JO wasn't a foreign kid playing for Larry Brown either.





> He isn't even 6'7" in shoes. His official measurements from Chicago:
> 
> Maxiell, Jason 6' 5" 6' 6¼" 257.6 7' 3¼" 8' 11"


Sorry, but 3/4 of an inch means absolutely nothing.


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## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

Joe Dumars has said publicly Darko will get significant playing time this year, by the way.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

HKF said:


> I didn't say McDyess wasn't a good pickup. He was an excellent pick (considering he stayed healthy). However, picking up McDyess and bringing back Elden Campbell pretty much told you that Darko was not ready to play any minutes again. Now this year, they bring in Maxiell (and Campbell retires), which means once again, Darko is the 5th big on the depth chart. Then they drafted a project in Amir Johnson and are going to send him to the NBDL. A year of filling out and I'd expect him to get more tick then Darko in 2006-07. Rick Pitino loved his potential, but he was picked number 56 in the draft not No. 2.
> 
> Is he (Darko) going to play at all next year?


If Larry Brown is gone then yes Darko will play next year.


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## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

HKF said:


> Really? Swift sat the bench last year and is going to play in 2005-06. I doubt the Sonics mind much, as they had him getting stronger and they won the Northwest Division.


So it's OK for Swift not to play, because the Sonics planned for it and had team success?


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> I didn't say McDyess wasn't a good pickup. He was an excellent pick (considering he stayed healthy). However, picking up McDyess and bringing back Elden Campbell pretty much told you that Darko was not ready to play any minutes again. Now this year, they bring in Maxiell (and Campbell retires), which means once again, Darko is the 5th big on the depth chart. Then they drafted a project in Amir Johnson and are going to send him to the NBDL. A year of filling out and I'd expect him to get more tick then Darko in 2006-07. Rick Pitino loved his potential, but he was picked number 56 in the draft not No. 2.
> 
> Is he (Darko) going to play at all next year?


picking up elden campbell just meant shaq hasn't retired yet. thats all.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

ian said:


> So it's OK for Swift not to play, because the Sonics planned for it and had team success?


No, because they are giving him every opportunity to play next year. They are happy with his progress. If Swift doesn't play (at all) next year, then we got a problem.


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## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

HKF said:


> No, because they are giving him every opportunity to play next year. They are happy with his progress. If Swift doesn't play (at all) next year, then we got a problem.


Why is it OK to develop a player for one year and not two?


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

Scinos said:


> Based on Seattle drafting him with the knowledge that he would develop for a year, then contribute once Jerome James and Vitaly Potapenko were off the books.
> 
> As for those who say Swift didn't go up against any competition, he established himself as one of the top big men going against guys like Dwight Howard and Al Jefferson in ABCD camps and all-star games. He also played against NBA players for two years before he was drafted, at Tim Grover's big man camp. He went up against Eddy Curry, Rasheed Wallace and Jermaine O'Neal. Despite being much younger and not having a developed body, he didn't back down and he held his own.


anyone can go up agaisnt anyone else in a frigging camp. it doesn't mean u played them in a meaningful game. god this is no different than a specialized practice session.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> No, because they are giving him every opportunity to play next year. They are happy with his progress. If Swift doesn't play (at all) next year, then we got a problem.


ur joking right? u know some players actually blossom PAST the age of 19. I know its hard to realize this. I mean holy crap if he doesn't begin starting in his second year we have ap roblem? **edited**


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

yavoon said:


> ur joking right? u know some players actually blossom PAST the age of 19. I know its hard to realize this. I mean holy crap if he doesn't begin starting in his second year we have ap roblem? **edited**.


lol...


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

CiMa said:


> So what if they're not the same? They're still obstacles. Jermaine O'Neal can't control the lockout, correct. But Darko can't just magically fix his hand.


Yes he can't magically fix his hand, but that still doesn't explain why during a whole season the only thing he could show was at the end of the year playing big minutes against the worst team in basketball. He avg. 1.6 ppg and 1.2 rpg. They didn't even want to give him any burn during how many easy wins they had this year. That's saying something.



> What? Please re-phrase that, I have no idea what you're saying. Fortson may have more of an offensive game and he is a better rebounder, but his defense is atrocious. Maxiell is a great defender and is no slouch when it comes to rebounding. His offensive talent rivals Fortson, although it's probably slightly worse.


You've done this several times in the thread and yet people seem to read what I'm saying just fine. Fortson is a goon. That's how he plays defense. He is an intimidator who basically hard fouls guys and gets in their heads. He doesn't play great defense in terms of contesting shots, but he puts his body into you, denies positioning and will foul the snot out of you or flop all over the place. He is a goon and does a good job of it. One of my least favorite players in the league. Maxiell is really not a similar player at all, except he's undersized. Forston was a college All-American scoring force at Cincinnati. 



> I have no problem with it, but you make yourself look ignorant for saying things like that. If Darko turns out to be a bust, then yeah you can kid yourself into thinking that you are a genius and you knew it all a long, but if he isn't a bust, you're going to look like an idiot.


I don't make myself look ignorant at all. People make predictions all the time on this site. They make predictions that the Bulls will suck, that Phoenix will be great, that Kobe will blow up at Phil Jackson, that guys will be superstars and guys will bust. 

I don't make myself look like an idiot anymore than any other person here. You don't know me at all and yet you assume that I take pride in being a genius in regards to basketball. I just like talking about basketball. I like starting threads and getting people all lathered up, because at the end of the day it's all opinion anyway. So saying I'm going to look like an idiot is pretty funny.

Ask around what my NBA related track record is and you'll see I have some wrong ones, but I have some right ones. Heck, ask RP McMurphy or rawse. They'll fill you in on my track record.

Who said two years ago Deron Williams would be drafted in the top 5? I knew it and it happened. Who said Ben Gordon would be a stud when people doubted him, said he be a bust? So if I look like an idiot fine. I'm right enough times, not to really care when I'm wrong. It's a rare occurence.


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## Ballyhoo (May 30, 2003)

CiMa said:


> If Larry Brown is gone then yes Darko will play next year.


Better to remain on the bench and be thought a bust, than to step on the court and remove all doubt.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

ian said:


> Why is it OK to develop a player for one year and not two?


It doesn't look good when the No. 2 pick can't get more than garbage time minutes for two full years. Name another top 5 pick (in the last 10 years) who hasn't played in two full years and isn't Skita (who is a bust). 

Two years. 164 games (He's played 71 of them, 66 of which garbage time minutes).

Even undrafted FA's like Ronald Dupree play more then he does.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> It doesn't look good when the No. 2 pick can't get more than garbage time minutes for two full years. Name another top 5 pick (in the last 10 years) who hasn't played in two full years and isn't Skita (who is a bust).
> 
> Two years. 164 games (He's played 71 of them, 66 of which garbage time minutes).
> 
> Even undrafted FA's like Ronald Dupree play more then he does.


most top 5 picks goto **** teams. and there's only one larry brown who is btw famous for not liking young players(and they didnt come much more raw than darko).


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## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

HKF said:


> It doesn't look good when the No. 2 pick can't get more than garbage time minutes for two full years. Name another top 5 pick (in the last 10 years) who hasn't played in two full years and isn't Skita (who is a bust).
> 
> Two years. 164 games (He's played 71 of them, 66 of which garbage time minutes).
> 
> Even undrafted FA's like Ronald Dupree play more then he does.


So in other words, you have no explanation for that arbitrary one year rule of yours. You already know it's a matter of frontcourt depth on a championship team. What a waste of time this has been...


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

yavoon said:


> ur joking right?
> u know some players actually blossom PAST the age of 19. I know its hard to realize this. I mean holy crap if he doesn't begin starting in his second year we have ap roblem? **edited**


**edited**

Swift doesn't have to start. He's going to play (in the games) and not garbage time. It's pretty simple. Darko won't play before Garbage time and Swift will play in meaningful minutes.

The only cool thing about this thread is you'll disappear, because usually when people are wrong on this site and they are newbies, they just disappear forever. Anyone seen MarvinWilliams#1in2005? Oh wait, he had to change that screenname. :rofl:


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

yavoon said:


> ur joking right? u know some players actually blossom PAST the age of 19. I know its hard to realize this. I mean holy crap if he doesn't begin starting in his second year we have ap roblem? **edited**


I just want to understand something, if Darko doesn't contribute this season is still the human victory cigar for a third consecutive season.. will you consider him to be a bust?

There's no doubting that no one drafts a player with the express thought that they won't be able to contribute until their contract year.

I've heard enough of the guys playing in front of Darko, if you're good enough to play you should find your way on the court by your third year. I think the funny thing is everyone who's posting in this thread knows he won't play next year, and they'll run out the same horse and pony show next year.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

ian said:


> So in other words, you have no explanation for that arbitrary one year rule of yours. You already know it's a matter of frontcourt depth on a championship team. What a waste of time this has been...


How is it arbitrary? Swift is further along in his development than Darko and his minutes will reflect that. Darko after two years, still seems to be at square one. It's like he is a 20 year old project now, instead of an 18 year old project. In two years nothing appears to be different.

Hey, glad I could ruin your Saturday night. Anytime. :wave:


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> **edited**
> 
> Swift doesn't have to start. He's going to play (in the games) and not garbage time. It's pretty simple. Darko won't play before Garbage time and Swift will play in meaningful minutes.
> 
> The only cool thing about this thread is you'll disappear, because usually when people are wrong on this site and they are newbies, they just disappear forever. Anyone seen MarvinWilliams#1in2005? Oh wait, he had to change that screenname. :rofl:


**edited**

its not my fault u seem incapable of comprehending ideas such as why dumars is not to blame for not drafting wade or why swift wasn't anymore proven when drafted than darko. 

and what am i to be wrong about? if u think I'm wrong name it, what amazingly brazen prediction have I made? my first post was that darko could be a good backup center sometime later in his career and I would like to keep him w/ detroit. honestly I've said nothing that amazing, its u who has the extreme view, its u who has the lack of understanding.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

PhillyPhanatic said:


> I just want to understand something, if Darko doesn't contribute this season is still the human victory cigar for a third consecutive season.. will you consider him to be a bust?
> 
> There's no doubting that no one drafts a player with the express thought that they won't be able to contribute until their contract year.
> 
> I've heard enough of the guys playing in front of Darko, if you're good enough to play you should find your way on the court by your third year. I think the funny thing is everyone who's posting in this thread knows he won't play next year, and they'll run out the same horse and pony show next year.


thats not true at all. detroit is a championship team taht is very deep in the front court. should steve young have "found playing time" in front of joe montana? its an absurdity if there are quality proven commodities in front of u on a team trying to win championships then u have to expect to be shoved back.

that being said I hope this darko's first ever summer league he is able to mature some, develop more than good looking practice moves. I am willing to be in this for the long term. if darko takes 5 years to develop into a backup center that can be in detroit for the next 10 years then retire I won't be extatic but I will be happy that patience and foresight was choosen.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

You'd be happy with the No. 2 pick developing 5 years into a backup Center? Way to lower expectations.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

yavoon said:


> **edited**
> 
> its not my fault u seem incapable of comprehending ideas such as why dumars is not to blame for not drafting wade or why swift wasn't anymore proven when drafted than darko.
> 
> and what am i to be wrong about? if u think I'm wrong name it, what amazingly brazen prediction have I made? my first post was that darko could be a good backup center sometime later in his career and I would like to keep him w/ detroit. honestly I've said nothing that amazing, its u who has the extreme view, its u who has the lack of understanding.


I'm not incapable of anything. You're looking at the drafting of Swift (at No. 14) the same way as Darko being draft No. 2. It's obvious that after two years Darko isn't ready to consistently play against NBA players and yet after one year of getting stronger Seattle feels Swift is. What aren't you understanding?


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> You'd be happy with the No. 2 pick developing 5 years into a backup Center? Way to lower expectations.


sure I would like him to become very good. but if he developed into a backup center I wouldn't get rid of him in disgust. not everyone can be an all star, its jus treality. drafts have 2-4 all stars in them and thats it usually. also noting that darko plays THE premium position in the league and that everyone else had him ranked either 2 or 3. then yah sometimes u take ur lumps.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> I'm not incapable of anything. You're looking at the drafting of Swift (at No. 14) the same way as Darko being draft No. 2. It's obvious that after two years Darko isn't ready to consistently play against NBA players and yet after one year of getting stronger Seattle feels Swift is. What aren't you understanding?


seattle is just throwing swift in because it no longer wants to keep jerome james. should detroit let both wallace's go to see if darko is ready? yah.....


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

yavoon said:


> sure I would like him to become very good. but if he developed into a backup center I wouldn't get rid of him in disgust. not everyone can be an all star, its jus treality. drafts have 2-4 all stars in them and thats it usually. also noting that darko plays THE premium position in the league and that everyone else had him ranked either 2 or 3. then yah sometimes u take ur lumps.


See I have no doubt Darko could develop into a backup center. However if that is the case, he would be a bust, the same way Benoit Benjamin, Chris Washburn, William Bedford, Michael Olowokandi., Shawn Bradley and Joe Smith are busts. 

No. 2 picks are not supposed to become backup Centers.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

yavoon said:


> thats not true at all. detroit is a championship team taht is very deep in the front court. should steve young have "found playing time" in front of joe montana? its an absurdity if there are quality proven commodities in front of u on a team trying to win championships then u have to expect to be shoved back.
> 
> that being said I hope this darko's first ever summer league he is able to mature some, develop more than good looking practice moves. I am willing to be in this for the long term. if darko takes 5 years to develop into a backup center that can be in detroit for the next 10 years then retire I won't be extatic but I will be happy that patience and foresight was choosen.


That's a terrible example, since one Joe Montana is arguably the best QB ever, and two you don't often rotate QBs in games. But that's apples, we're talking oranges right here.

There are 96 minutes of playing time available between the PF and C positions, if Darko can't get burn he's a bust. Championship caliber team or not. Also if he becomes a career reserve from the #2 pick, people will rightfully tag him with that label.

I don't see why you're even arguing in this thread, you're basically saying that you hope he turns out to be at least a bust.


----------



## Scinos (Jun 10, 2003)

PhillyPhanatic said:


> I just want to understand something, if Darko doesn't contribute this season is still the human victory cigar for a third consecutive season.. will you consider him to be a bust?
> 
> There's no doubting that no one drafts a player with the express thought that they won't be able to contribute until their contract year.
> 
> I've heard enough of the guys playing in front of Darko, if you're good enough to play you should find your way on the court by your third year. I think the funny thing is everyone who's posting in this thread knows he won't play next year, and they'll run out the same horse and pony show next year.


Exactly, when do you draw the line with all the excuses. He's had two full seasons, and he still can't put together a strong performance against summer league players. 

He has the tools, but he doesn't have the mental aspects to be a good player. Is that something that you can develop ? I don't think so. Just look at guys like Kwame Brown.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> See I have no doubt Darko could develop into a backup center. However if that is the case, he would be a bust, the same way Benoit Benjamin, Chris Washburn, William Bedford, Michael Olowokandi., Shawn Bradley and Joe Smith are busts.
> 
> No. 2 picks are not supposed to become backup Centers.


backtracking off the skita comment already? **edited**


----------



## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

HKF said:


> Yes he can't magically fix his hand, but that still doesn't explain why during a whole season the only thing he could show was at the end of the year playing big minutes against the worst team in basketball. He avg. 1.6 ppg and 1.2 rpg. They didn't even want to give him any burn during how many easy wins they had this year. That's saying something.


No it doesn't. Larry Brown is the reason he's not playing. Darko scored in double figures the last 2 games of the season, and he had 13 his last summer game. He's rusty as hell, but he's actually productive when given a chance to play.





> You've done this several times in the thread and yet people seem to read what I'm saying just fine. Fortson is a goon. That's how he plays defense. He is an intimidator who basically hard fouls guys and gets in their heads. He doesn't play great defense in terms of contesting shots, but he puts his body into you, denies positioning and will foul the snot out of you or flop all over the place. He is a goon and does a good job of it. One of my least favorite players in the league. Maxiell is really not a similar player at all, except he's undersized. Forston was a college All-American scoring force at Cincinnati.


You've obviously never seen Maxiell play. All UC big men have the same pedigree- tough minded, hard nosed defenders. K-Mart and Maxiell get in your face and make you work. I believe they are both #1 and #2 on the all time blocks list at UC. Fortson was never a shot blocker, but he still got in your face, just like K-Mart and Maxiell do. And I only brought up Fortson because he's an undersized big man like Maxiell is.






> I don't make myself look ignorant at all. People make predictions all the time on this site. They make predictions that the Bulls will suck, that Phoenix will be great, that Kobe will blow up at Phil Jackson, that guys will be superstars and guys will bust.
> 
> I don't make myself look like an idiot anymore than any other person here. You don't know me at all and yet you assume that I take pride in being a genius in regards to basketball. I just like talking about basketball. I like starting threads and getting people all lathered up, because at the end of the day it's all opinion anyway. So saying I'm going to look like an idiot is pretty funny.
> 
> ...


I don't understand your prediction though. If you have such a good track record then why are you writing off a guy who hasn't been given a chance? Seems pretty silly to me for a guy with a "good track record".

Oh and you being wrong is a rare occurance? Wow, cocky are we? Not that it means anything, but I predicted LeBron would be an NBA superstar when he was a freshmen in high school (which was well before he was nationally known). I predicted the Bulls would make the playoffs this year. Infact I think only Sloth and I were the ones who made that prediction. I was in the don't trade Ben Gordon club from day one. I said Duhon was a good pick for Chicago on draft night when most people were blasting Pax for picking him.

Your track record is no better or worse than mine, and they are both completely irrelevant in this discussion.


----------



## bananas (Apr 20, 2003)

Isn't the offseason a blast?! Poor fans are still not done throwing tantrums over this years finals. As a Piston fan, I love the bitterness, keep it coming. What better way to get at Detroit than its achilles heel aka "The Human Victory Cigar". These people (well actually its just that same guy repeating content for the past 10 pages) are like feeding frenzy sharks circling Darko after every move (literally). The title is misleading because none of us saw Darko playing bad, it should be edited to "Darko is rumored to be looking bad". Well we have a contradicting assessment for Darko because the Pistons summer league coach of the team has said that Darko played well in both of these recent VSL games. Yet some internet draft scout is stating that Darko appears to be playing with poor intensity (Tim Duncan anyone?). Ok, so all of these pages have surmounted from a single scouts perspective well then let us take a look at what this 'draft expert' scout has to say about Darko's game:



> [Darko Milicic] Started the game a little slowly, backed down Schenscher and then tried to get cute with a hook shot instead of throwing it down. He was stuffed by Marcus Haislip. After that he had a wide open look from 18 feet out and he hesitated and then turned it over on the ensuing pass. Other then that he showed a lot of potential in a lot of areas, but mentally he just can’t put it together. His feet are very quick on defense, his hands are great in the post, he has a beautiful hook shot, can stroke the 18 footer, has nice footwork and great body control to get his man off balance and get his shot off in the paint. The biggest problem here is that he just won’t take the ball strong up at the hoop and finish with authority, preferring to get cute and fade away everytime instead. Darko put a lot more effort in today, though, hitting the deck twice for a loose ball and calling for the ball. You can tell with the passes he makes and the way he moves off the ball that he really knows how to play and has some serious talent, he just needs someone to believe in him and bring it out out of him now.
> 
> Darko was very active on the offensive and defensive glass in the 2nd half, but settled way too much for the outside jumper which kept bouncing off the back of the rim. He also had some very nice passes and a strong offensive move to score after turning off his shoulder for a kiss off the glass. All in all, a better game for Darko than yesterday, but still nothing really to write home about. He showed a couple of sparks here and there, the upside is definitely still there, hopefully he’ll gain some confidence for next time off this outing.
> 
> Towards the end, Darko came strong with some really good moves at the basket. One great jab step to get him man off balance and drill the 14 footer, and another strong dunk off of an offensive rebound. He was rebounding the ball very well in the fourth as well. He showed some emotion by telling his guys that he wanted the ball more in the post, not on the perimeter.


This is the summer league people, have you ever seen one of these games? Every player out there is trying to prove something so you can gauge an increase in isolation style basketball -- especially in the first game or two (or all of them depending on the roster make up). So going by what this internet individual reported (which is what we all are doing) then it looks like Darko's initial offensive play was a weak attempt but he followed that up the rest of the game with some level headed playing. Milicic had open looks from the perimeter but they didnt fall (hitting the back of the rim) yet the scout seemed to be enthusiastic over Darko's ability to hit the '18 footer' along with his passing ability. Not to mention his foot speed for a player his size is very impressive (this has been known for awhile) and overall quickness. Darko Milicic is not a true center, he needs to be at the four spot for the majority of his playing time (I'd say 70/30 ratio). That means he'll be out on high screens /pick and rolls with the ability to roll in the lane for a received pass / rebounding position or hit the open jumper from the screen (which has been known) or distribute the ball from the high post (his passing/vision is his strongest asset atm) or drive for a easier shot/draw foul (he has foot speed and handles and quickness to drive especially on centers/forwards). Time will tell and the summer is young.

And why do we keep seeing Dyess and Campbell being mentioned as a knock against Darko. Come on, are we all that dry on material? Do you even follow the Detroit Pistons? Campbell was brought back to guard Shaq (which he once again did) in the playoffs. Neither have anything to do with Darko's role on the team. He is the future, the long term future and this was stated since before Dumars and Co. drafted the kid. Dyess was brought in to replace Okur as the first pf/c off the bench. Larry Brown is the only star of this team and he wants a 3 man roation at the 4/5 and thats what he got (no quarrels from Dumars this year). LB delivered another finals appearance with his strict rotation so he gets a pass for not developing Darko in any way on the court. Though it did cost them in Game 7 when the Piston bigs got in foul trouble that wouldve been a great time to see a prepared and groomed Milicic out there. That is the yang of LB for Detroit, his inability to relate to these young foreign kids. It isnt one sides fault, it takes two to tango-- both Darko and Delfino have acted immature on multiple occasions. This summer was supposed to be the time to mend egos and put everyone on the same page. So far so good but again the summer is young.


----------



## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

Scinos said:


> Exactly, when do you draw the line with all the excuses. He's had two full seasons, and he still can't put together a strong performance against summer league players.
> 
> He has the tools, but he doesn't have the mental aspects to be a good player. Is that something that you can develop ? I don't think so. Just look at guys like Kwame Brown.


what has he really had tho? this isnt his third summer league. he hasn't had playing time in games. he's had two seasons of practices.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

PhillyPhanatic said:


> I've heard enough of the guys playing in front of Darko, if you're good enough to play you should find your way on the court by your third year. I think the funny thing is everyone who's posting in this thread knows he won't play next year, and they'll run out the same horse and pony show next year.


Someone in this thread said that Joe Dumars said publically that Darko will get more playing time next year, so you can take that for what it's worth.


----------



## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

CiMa said:


> Infact I think only Sloth and I were the ones who made that prediction.


This is OT, but Sir Patchwork had a pretty extensive list of people in his sig who predicted the Bulls would make the playoffs, I was one of them. So it wasn't just you and Sloth alone.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

yavoon said:


> backtracking off the skita comment already? **edited**


How am I backtracking off of Skita? Skita is a bust. 3 years and he's a FA fishing for a team. He played 3 years, showed nothing, he's toast. Back to Europe. I really wanted him to succeed as well.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

bananas said:


> Isn't the offseason a blast?! Poor fans are still not done throwing tantrums over this years finals. As a Piston fan, I love the bitterness, keep it coming. What better way to get at Detroit than its achilles heel aka "The Human Victory Cigar". These people (well actually its just that same guy repeating content for the past 10 pages) are like feeding frenzy sharks circling Darko after every move (literally). The title is misleading because none of us saw Darko playing bad, it should be edited to "Darko is rumored to be looking bad". Well we have a contradicting assessment for Darko because the Pistons summer league coach of the team has said that Darko played well in both of these recent VSL games. Yet some internet draft scout is stating that Darko appears to be playing with poor intensity (Tim Duncan anyone?). Ok, so all of these pages have surmounted from a single scouts perspective well then let us take a look at what this 'draft expert' scout has to say about Darko's game:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 :clap: End of discussion. Lock this thread now and open it again when Darko's contract runs out.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> How am I backtracking off of Skita? Skita is a bust. 3 years and he's a FA fishing for a team. He played 3 years, showed nothing, he's toast. Back to Europe. I really wanted him to succeed as well.


earlier in thread u said darko was like skita, now u say darko is like olowakandi. slight difference.

**edited**


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Skita is a bust.
Kandi is a bust.

See a pattern?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

CiMa said:


> You've obviously never seen Maxiell play. All UC big men have the same pedigree- tough minded, hard nosed defenders. K-Mart and Maxiell get in your face and make you work. I believe they are both #1 and #2 on the all time blocks list at UC. Fortson was never a shot blocker, but he still got in your face, just like K-Mart and Maxiell do. And I only brought up Fortson because he's an undersized big man like Maxiell is.


You're right, I've obviously never seen Maxiell play. I didn't see him play in 2004 against East Tennessee State or Illinois (when the Bearcats got rolled) and I didn't see him play when they beat Iowa and lost to Kentucky this year in the NCAA tournament. I never said Fortson was a shotblocker. I just said, he doesn't contest shots, he simply fouls, keeps guys off the block with his body andflops. Maxiell is undersized, but he is an athlete. No one would dare call Fortson an athlete. 



> I don't understand your prediction though. If you have such a good track record then why are you writing off a guy who hasn't been given a chance? Seems pretty silly to me for a guy with a "good track record".
> 
> Oh and you being wrong is a rare occurance? Wow, cocky are we? Not that it means anything, but I predicted LeBron would be an NBA superstar when he was a freshmen in high school (which was well before he was nationally known). I predicted the Bulls would make the playoffs this year. Infact I think only Sloth and I were the ones who made that prediction. I was in the don't trade Ben Gordon club from day one. I said Duhon was a good pick for Chicago on draft night when most people were blasting Pax for picking him.
> 
> Your track record is no better or worse than mine, and they are both completely irrelevant in this discussion.


I see no point in holding off on predictions because the likes of you doesn't like them. I'm not cocky at all. All you have to do, is do a search on the site. If you have made predictions before, then you should not have a problem with me many any and go on your merry way. Later.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

TheATLien said:


> Skita is a bust.
> Kandi is a bust.
> 
> See a pattern?


they aren't even close to the same. olowakandi has gotten minutes in the league for a long time, contributed too. sure he's not as good as he should be, but he got a new contract after his rookie one ran out. 

skita is gone, off the planet., and infact skita never DID anything.

honestly now, stop and think before u post.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

yavoon said:


> they aren't even close to the same. olowakandi has gotten minutes in the league for a long time, contributed too. sure he's not as good as he should be, but he got a new contract after his rookie one ran out.
> 
> skita is gone, off the planet., and infact skita never DID anything.
> 
> honestly now, stop and think before u post.


You do know that Kandi was taken #1 in a good year, right? That's a bust.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

yavoon said:


> they aren't even close to the same. olowakandi has gotten minutes in the league for a long time, contributed too. sure he's not as good as he should be, but he got a new contract after his rookie one ran out.
> 
> skita is gone, off the planet., and infact skita never DID anything.
> 
> honestly now, stop and think before u post.


Let the record show, that he has different degrees of busts. So I'm not the only one who notices this, he has degrees of busts. 

In the human world, they are just busts. No need to separate them. Just flat out busts.

Edit: Oh and to keep the insults going, according to yavoon, I'm illiterate, on crack and a 14 year old girl. Keep score, he's got a million of them. :clap:


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

TheATLien said:


> You do know that Kandi was taken #1 in a good year, right? That's a bust.


do u not understand the idea that skita and kandi are not the same level of 'bust.' u can't just say they're both busts and therefore are the same player. its retarded and simplistic.

**edited**


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

yavoon said:


> do u not understand the idea that skita and kandi are not the same level of 'bust.' u can't just say they're both busts and therefore are the same player. its retarded and simplistic.
> 
> **edited**


:rofl:

You said it yourself! They are both busts! Period! There are no degree's. This ain't geometry. Either you are a bust, or you are not.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

TheATLien said:


> :rofl:
> 
> You said it yourself! They are both busts! Period! There are no degree's. This ain't geometry. Either you are a bust, or you are not.


**edited**


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

yavoon said:


> **edited**




I figured this would be appropriate since you've been getting ***** slapped up and down this thread...


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Duh, you guys are such idiots. Especially the ATLien. I mean, Michael Olowokandi is a level 3 bust whilst Skita is a level 5 bust (highest level). Even a drunk, illiterate 14 year old girl on drugs would know that


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

HKF said:


> I see no point in holding off on predictions because the likes of you doesn't like them. I'm not cocky at all. All you have to do, is do a search on the site. If you have made predictions before, then you should not have a problem with me many any and go on your merry way. Later.


You don't think you're cocky? You said being wrong is a rare occurance for you. If that's not cocky I don't know what is. By the way, I remember you being one of the people who said the Bulls would win 25 games. One of those rare occurances, right?


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

CiMa said:


> Wow, really? Darko wasn't traded because there's people in the Pistons' front office that actually have a brain and still believe in Darko because he hasn't been given a chance to prove himself? Wow, what a bunch of idiots.


Maybe not idiots, but this is a case just like when a man don't want to admitt his girl, is a ho. But everyone tells him, she is. This the same case. You fell in love with him, but know you don't want to admitt it, after spending so much time and energy, in the relationship. You are in denial. Darko fans are in big time denial.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Darko = Level 5 Ho :yes:


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

DWadeistheTruth said:


> Maybe not idiots, but this is a case just like when a man don't want to admitt his girl, is a ho. But everyone tells him, she is. This the same case. You fell in love with him, but know you don't want to admitt it, after spending so much time and energy, in the relationship. You are in denial. Darko fans are in big time denial.


lol this just made my night, that was a great analogy. It's incorrect, but it was still good none the less.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

CiMa said:


> You don't think you're cocky? You said being wrong is a rare occurance for you. If that's not cocky I don't know what is. By the way, I remember you being one of the people who said the Bulls would win 25 games. One of those rare occurances, right?


Do you forget that many Bulls fans were running for cover when the team started 0-9? Hey the Bulls rebounded, but you honestly believed they'd make the playoffs after starting 0-9? You're a true fan.

Speaking highly of yourself is not cocky. It's not my fault you have low self-esteem (hence your tribal tattoo thread). I'm a happy dude and I wear a smile on my face. :biggrin:


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## bananas (Apr 20, 2003)

TheATLien said:


> Skita is a bust.
> Kandi is a bust.
> 
> See a pattern?


No. Oh wait, I do see a pattern-- players with five letter nicknames are doomed to be a bust! Add Kwame to that list and I guess you all are right.. Darko is doomed, done, stick a fork in that bleached head of his.

All jokes aside if you all cannot absorb the point that Larry Brown makes it his way or the high way then we can just drop this discussion now. He had his way in the olympics and look what transpired; a bunch of unhappy Team USA fans. Now, I won't knock Pound4Pound's methods of coaching because he has produced consecutive finals appearances and one NBA championship. Yet that doesn't make everything peachy keen. The young guys, Delfino and Darko, will need some regular season playing time. Delfino was in the rotation but injuries brought his rookie season to a screeching halt. Darko plays the same position as Brown's three favorite players (Dyess, Wallace, Wallace) and we all know how LB's favoritism plays out. For the second offseason Dumars has stepped in and stated that Darko will get regular season minutes. I believe him this time because A] Brown is on a much shorter leash (If he returns) and B] We all saw in the finals what a short rotation did to Detroit. 

I am loving the potential of the Pistons for present and future. They have three PF/Cs that are playing at a high level now and three that are waiting in the wings with massive amounts of potential and primed skill. The majority of teams would love to have any six of these big men on their roster. This thread just reminded me once again to thank the basketball gods that we got the right Piston Bad Boy guard to run the team... Hi Isiah!


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

HKF said:


> Do you forget that many Bulls fans were running for cover when the team started 0-9? Hey the Bulls rebounded, but you honestly believed they'd make the playoffs after starting 0-9? You're a true fan.
> 
> Speaking highly of yourself is not cocky. It's not my fault you have low self-esteem (hence your tribal tattoo thread). I'm a happy dude and I wear a smile on my face. :biggrin:


Yes I did. West Coast trip kills us every year, but this year was going to be different.

I have low self esteem because I asked for opinions on my tattoo? **edited** Go re-read that thread. The only people I lashed out at were people who gave me **** about my hat and my bracelet. I have no self esteem issues at all and you're just fooling yourself if you think otherwise. I stand up for what I believe in and don't take **** from anyone (hence the Do you believe in God thread), nor do I care what anyone thinks about me. **edited**


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## bananas (Apr 20, 2003)

Ah, Darko debates always seem to bring the best out of people. The Offseason, I LOVE THIS GAME!


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

BaronMcGrady said:


> Yes indeed. I can't believe people still have faith in this guy.


Couldn't have stated it better myself.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

CiMa said:


> Yes I did. West Coast trip kills us every year, but this year was going to be different.
> 
> I have low self esteem because I asked for opinions on my tattoo? **edited** Go re-read that thread. The only people I lashed out at were people who gave me **** about my hat and my bracelet. I have no self esteem issues at all and you're just fooling yourself if you think otherwise. I stand up for what I believe in and don't take **** from anyone (hence the Do you believe in God thread), nor do I care what anyone thinks about me. **edited**



**edited**


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> I figured this would be appropriate since you've been getting ***** slapped up and down this thread...


oh so u want to jump in on the camp that believes skita and kandi were of equal value. I can't expect much less of u. tho really what ur post was about was some lame attempt to take the last 5 pages of me correcting ur remedial ability to understand by u posting some funny animation.

but seriously I hope ur a GM I would so trade u rashard for lebron.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

yavoon said:


> oh so u want to jump in on the camp that believes skita and kandi were of equal value. I can't expect much less of u. tho really what ur post was about was some lame attempt to take the last 5 pages of me correcting ur remedial ability to understand by u posting some funny animation.
> 
> but seriously I hope ur a GM I would so trade u rashard for lebron.




**edited**


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

The reason I think Darko is going to be the bust he has proven to all of us. I caugh a couple Detroit games, where they threw him in garbage time. He doesn't have basketball instincts. He is just not a good basketball, player. Man being 7 feet, misses dunks like WNBA women trying to attemp a dunk. In other words, he plays like a girl. NBA is a man's game.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

HKF said:


> Me posting on a message board doesn't change the fact that you seem to have low self-esteem. It's alright. Counselors will help you, if you ask for it. The trendy tribal tattoo, the live strong bracelet, the fake baking, the popped collars, the horrible mainstream movies, the trendy awful hip hop. You're a middle age marketers dream. Everything they shell out, you'll consume.
> 
> You have to know people on this board see this. All you need to do is make a thread on EBB and ask, "Am I too trendy?" I guarantee a bunch of people will tell you, yes, in fact you are. I read your posts merely for entertainment though.
> 
> Yes you don't care what others think of you, yet you got upset when you posted your picture w/ your tattoo and people made jokes about your tattoo, backwards hat, no definition bicep and livestrong bracelet. I got to hand it to you though. I laughed.


Dude you've never even met me and you're making a baseless assumption over the internet. I have no self esteem issues at all, I'm perfectly fine with the way I am (minus my muscle, but that's why I work out).

Yeah I don't care what other people think of me, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to defend myself. It's called standing up for what you believe in. I'm not going to just sit back and take **** from people.

I'm not trendy and you're foolish for judging me for what I wear. Getting something or wearing something popular doesn't make you trendy. I'm sure you wear a hat, and whatever you way you wear it, I'm sure millions of other people wear it that way too. Guess what, according to your stupid analogy, you are now trendy.

And finally, notice how I'm still not poking fun at you? If I had low self estreem issues I'd probably be lashing out at you. But no, there's no reason for that.

Looks like you're the one with issues. I know you're getting off by making fun of me and it's not bothering me personally one bit.

You can call me trendy, make fun of what I wear, what I believe in, or what I stand for, but I don't care. But just remember that it's dickheads like you that make the world less enjoyable for a lot of people. Fortunately, I know how to handle **** from people like you.

Judging by the enjoyment you get out of trying to hurt my feelings or insult me, my guess is you were one of those kids who was picked on in high school and now takes his frustrations out on kids younger than yourself. I pity you.

*Please take the personal comments to PM.*


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## bananas (Apr 20, 2003)

DWadeistheTruth said:


> The reason I think Darko is going to be the bust he has proven to all of us. I caugh a couple Detroit games, where they threw him in garbage time. He doesn't have basketball instincts. He is just not a good basketball, player. Man being 7 feet, misses dunks like WNBA women trying to attemp a dunk. In other words, he plays like a girl. NBA is a man's game.


One thing Darko does have is pride so garbage time offends him. EVERY game the fans cheer for him to be put in and he has publicly stated that that is embarrassing. And coming into the league he had a 'mean streak' but his confidence has dropped big time over his two seasons in the NBA. It is a big mess. I'm not sure Larry B. can change his ways so the only solutions to this is either trade Darko now while his value is high (which I do not want to do) or hire a new coach most likely Flip who will boost up the kids morale.


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

ian said:


> Joe Dumars has said publicly Darko will get significant playing time this year, by the way.


I guess you guys don't want to contend for the title no more. Damn Detroit gave up, that easy. :biggrin:


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

yavoon said:


> ur joking right? u know some players actually blossom PAST the age of 19. I know its hard to realize this. I mean holy crap if he doesn't begin starting in his second year we have ap roblem? are u on crack? thats the stupidest thing I've ever heard.


If he was such a phenon, like he was supposed to be, he should of already being at ok level by know, not his peak, but a pretty ok player, right know his like a joke. Meaning Darko, is a pretty slow, learner. Meaning they had no idea he was fake phenom. Even when Kobe came out highschool, the boy played stupid, but you could see brilliance. Darko, is another story.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

HKF said:


> **edited**


well I see u've given up arguing anything. I was so awaiting the xplanation of kandi and skita being the same too. but i guess we can't all be privy to the way that works out.


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

HKF said:


> Yes he can't magically fix his hand, but that still doesn't explain why during a whole season the only thing he could show was at the end of the year playing big minutes against the worst team in basketball. He avg. 1.6 ppg and 1.2 rpg. They didn't even want to give him any burn during how many easy wins they had this year. That's saying something.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I got no track record. But anyone, can comeback at me, if Darko aint no bust. I be the first one, to tell you am an idiot. Or whatever.


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## yavoon (Jul 2, 2005)

DWadeistheTruth said:


> If he was such a phenon, like he was supposed to be, he should of already being at ok level by know, not his peak, but a pretty ok player, right know his like a joke. Meaning Darko, is a pretty slow, learner. Meaning they had no idea he was fake phenom. Even when Kobe came out highschool, the boy played stupid, but you could see brilliance. Darko, is another story.


not necessarily true, everyone knew he was a project. he has been in zero summer leagues and has been behind a very good front court competing for a championship. and I think it is true that larry brown basically didn't give a crap and has wrecked the kids confidence some.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

CiMa said:


> Judging by the enjoyment you get out of trying to hurt my feelings or insult me, my guess is you were one of those kids who was picked on in high school and now takes his frustrations out on kids younger than yourself. I pity you.


I'll simply say this. If you didn't care, you wouldn't have responded. I don't get any enjoyment out of exposing you. It's whatever man. I don't think about the people here enough for it to really be an issue. When people try and insult my intelligence and call me cocky among other things, they don't like when I turn the tables on them. I mean, I don't get mad, I just simply type rebuttals. It's just that I'm really good at it. 99% of the time, I talk basketball, that 1% I have fun. 

No hard feelings. I'll sleep fine.


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

Ballyhoo said:


> Better to remain on the bench and be thought a bust, than to step on the court and remove all doubt.


Genius.Had me laughing for a lil bit.


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## LakerLunatic (Mar 1, 2005)

Im sooooo sick of this Darko Crap, HE IS NOT GOOD, IF HE WAS, HE WOULD GET MINUTES, I DONT CARE IF HE WAS PLAYING FOR THE CHAMPS! HE WOULD DEMAND THE MINUTES HE DESERVED IF HE DESERVED THEM! Larry Brown wouldnt just try to lose games, he is a bust, he was picked ahead of frigen Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh, and Dwayne Wade, are you kidding me? Darko was a BAD PICK! SORRY, HE WILL NOT AMOUNT TO ****!


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

PhillyPhanatic said:


> I just want to understand something, if Darko doesn't contribute this season is still the human victory cigar for a third consecutive season.. will you consider him to be a bust?
> 
> There's no doubting that no one drafts a player with the express thought that they won't be able to contribute until their contract year.
> 
> I've heard enough of the guys playing in front of Darko, if you're good enough to play you should find your way on the court by your third year. I think the funny thing is everyone who's posting in this thread knows he won't play next year, and they'll run out the same horse and pony show next year.


I think the 3rd year rule is irrevelant for foreign players, especially ones drafted as 'projects'. Playing behind Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace and Antonio McDyess with Larry Brown as your head coach is excuse enough. I honestly never expected Darko to dominate in summer league, why would he? He's been sitting on his *** for the last 2 years. No matter how skilled he is, he has to hone those skills and get acclimated to the way basketball is played in this league and this country.

I like the guy, but honestly he's in a bad situation.


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

HKF said:


> You'd be happy with the No. 2 pick developing 5 years into a backup Center? Way to lower expectations.


Very low, by then Bosh will be and all star, Carmelo and All Star, and D Wade MVP.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

HKF said:


> I'll simply say this. If you didn't care, you wouldn't have responded. I don't get any enjoyment out of exposing you. It's whatever man. I don't think about the people here enough for it to really be an issue. When people try and insult my intelligence and call me cocky among other things, they don't like when I turn the tables on them. I mean, I don't get mad, I just simply type rebuttals. It's just that I'm really good at it. 99% of the time, I talk basketball, that 1% I have fun.
> 
> No hard feelings. I'll sleep fine.


If I didn't care I wouldn't respond? News flash, every human being is different.

Anyway, I respect your basketball opinion but you brought up issues that were completley irrelevant to basketball. I may have called you cocky, but I wasn't insulting you. You went too far. You're older than me (I'm assuming), you're supposed to be the bigger man here.

But whatever, I'm done. You have your views and I have mine. Next time don't make it personal.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I've given him a chance, and no I haven't lost all hope, but every season he doesn't do anything is more and more time I've given him and more and more I'm going to start holding it against him. If he doesn't do anything this coming season, I'll be a lot less supportive than I am this offseason. This offseason I am a lot less supportive than I was last offseason. And so on.


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

CiMa said:


> No it doesn't. Larry Brown is the reason he's not playing. Darko scored in double figures the last 2 games of the season, and he had 13 his last summer game. He's rusty as hell, but he's actually productive when given a chance to play.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Am not asking for much of a prediction, will Darko this year score, over 5 points, or under? Cause I know is under. :biggrin:


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

DWadeistheTruth said:


> Am not asking for much of a prediction, will Darko this year score, over 5 points, or under? Cause I know is under. :biggrin:


I believe he will if he does get more playing time.


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

Theo! said:


> Duh, you guys are such idiots. Especially the ATLien. I mean, Michael Olowokandi is a level 3 bust whilst Skita is a level 5 bust (highest level). Even a drunk, illiterate 14 year old girl on drugs would know that


I though this was either wil Darko be a bust or not? Not what level bust will Darko be?


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

The One said:


> I believe he will if he does get more playing time.


That is up to you to decide?


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

DWadeistheTruth said:


> That is up to you to decide?


Just saying my opinion, that's all.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

why is this thread so long? why are there so many people in denial? darko is literally the worst player ive ever seen in the NBA. and before someone comes at me wrong, i know, he hasnt got a chance, give him a chance, blah blah blah. fine, but in five years if he still sucks, i get to make fun of you.


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

edit: wrong


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## xman (Feb 20, 2005)

The intense hate has to come from being a white European player or a combination of both. Some people resent the looks the European players are getting from the NBA and are happy when they fail. They do not like any of the spotlight taken away from american talent, and I am sure Darko being taken #2 really chapped there asses. I am sure the NBA developmental league will help these young Euro prospects bridge the gap to the NBA game. Atleast they will be able to play and develop. The league would have helped Darko if he would have been playing for the last two years. Tyson Chandler was the 2nd pick the year before Darko and Kwame Brown went #1 overall. Both went to suck teams and got playing time, Chandler got 19 minutes his first season averaging 6pts and 4.8 rebounds. I bet Darko would have put up comparable #'s if he would have went to the Bulls and got 19 minutes a game. No pressure at all just go out with the other kids and play but Darko goes to a team that is in the midst of conteding for the championship no wonder he has not gotten much time. If they went to the Pistons I doubt they would have gotten much more significant playing time then Darko has in his first two seasons. Darko went #2 overall but to a championship team with a great frontline. If Tyson Chandler would have been drafted by the Pistons I doubt he would get quality minutes either. But I doubt I would have seen any 16 page threads on how much of a bust he is. In watching basketball I have not seen more venom thrown at another player or so many people eager for him to fail.

I can't know for sure if this kid sucks or not. I have to see more of him to tell you the truth. However that scouting write up from summer league was not as negative as some of you are making it out to be. The fact is, it's very odd how many people are getting there rocks off calling this 20 year old a bust and are happy over seeing him fail. I would think it prudent to reserve judgment. Then again I am not as eager as some of you to see this kid fail.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

xman said:


> The intense hate has to come from being a white European player or a combination of both. Some people resent the looks the European players are getting from the NBA and are happy when they fail. They do not like any of the spotlight taken away from american talent, and I am sure Darko being taken #2 really chapped there asses. I am sure the NBA developmental league will help these young Euro prospects bridge the gap to the NBA game. Atleast they will be able to play and develop. The league would have helped Darko if he would have been playing for the last two years. Tyson Chandler was the 2nd pick the year before Darko and Kwame Brown went #1 overall. Both went to suck teams and got playing time, Chandler got 19 minutes his first season averaging 6pts and 4.8 rebounds. I bet Darko would have put up comparable #'s if he would have went to the Bulls and got 19 minutes a game. No pressure at all just go out with the other kids and play but Darko goes to a team that is in the midst of conteding for the championship no wonder he has not gotten much time. If they went to the Pistons I doubt they would have gotten much more significant playing time then Darko has in his first two seasons. Darko went #2 overall but to a championship team with a great frontline. If Tyson Chandler would have been drafted by the Pistons I doubt he would get quality minutes either. But I doubt I would have seen any 16 page threads on how much of a bust he is. In watching basketball I have not seen more venom thrown at another player or so many people eager for him to fail.


Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry were ripped to shreds on the Bulls board since I've been on this site (which has been for over 2 and a half years). They didn't start truly getting praise from Bulls fans till now and yet people still look at their draft position and realize they are not what we expected them to be. They might be getting big contracts, but it's more because their big, then because they are outstanding. They look like busts to me. No one wants Darko to fail because he is European. Certainly not I. Two of my favorite players in the league are Radmanovic and Gasol and I've been screaming for 3 years to find Skita some PT. I'm not a xenophobe. However, after 3 years and nothing to show for it, I have to conclude that Skita is a bust. He's proven nothing. Why should Darko get a pass? Is it because he's European? No one hesitates to call Kwame Brown a bust. Him being white has nothing to do with him being a bust. Robert Swift is white and I don't expect him to be a bust at all.



> I can't know for sure if this kid sucks or not. I have to see more of him to tell you the truth. However that scouting write up from summer league was not as negative as some of you are making it out to be. The fact is, it's very odd how many people are getting there rocks off calling this 20 year old a bust and are happy over seeing him fail. I would think it prudent to reserve judgment. Then again I am not as eager as some of you to see this kid fail.


Why would it be prudent? Because you say so? Why should people hold off on making judgments? Because you feel that people should wait? If you want to wait, fine do so. That doesn't mean others should follow your advice.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

once again the race thing has been brought up again. Kwame Brown, Joe Smith, Micheal Olowokandi this dudes have been taunted mercilessly because some believe they havent lived up to expectations. Darko shouldnt be excluded or looked at with special preference because he is 'white'. After all they all play the same sport


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## xman (Feb 20, 2005)

No not special just the same, besides is that the only thing you got from that post? You do not think it is fair to wait and see this guy get on the court on a regular basis before judging him? You also do not see the difference of getting drafted by a team like the Bulls and a team like the Pistons. Wow all you got out of it is getting defensive about the race issue, whatever.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

xman said:


> No not special just the same, besides is that the only thing you got from that post? You do not think it is fair to wait and see this guy get on the court on a regular basis before judging him? You also do not see the difference of getting drafted by a team like the Bulls and a team like the Pistons. Wow all you got out of it is getting defensive about the race issue, whatever.


Who was being defensive about race? You clearly injected him being "white" into the discussion. You said you saw 16 pages on Darko, but not one post mentioned people think he's a bust because he's white and from Europe. People think he's a bust because he was picked in the top "2" and hasn't shown anything of note in two full seasons. 

As Hbwoy said. If Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler, Eddy Curry can be ripped to pieces and called busts (which for their expectations & draft position they without question are), why can't Darko? He's a big boy, no need to coddle him cause he is white, as few people like yourself do.


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## xman (Feb 20, 2005)

I interjected quite a few things I just thought it funny that race was the one you were most sensitive to. One of my main interjections was that he needs to get playing time before we can judge. Also cracking the Detroit line-up was harder than cracking the Bulls line up when Chandler got his 19min per game as a rookie. 

You said..........



> Does that mean that Toronto's draft will be regarded as good? No of course not. If people want to say your draft sucks, then let them. I haven't said that (because I like Graham a lot), but they are well within their right to say it. You don't like it, tough noogies. *It's all opinion till they get on the court anyway*.


Thats all I'm saying buttercup.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

And what about the part I bolded before that. I said they are well within their rights to say I guy is a bust. If you don't like it tough noogies. I addressed the points you made, but your interjection of race was egregious not because we can't talk about race (ask around, I'll talk about it quit easily), but because it really had nothing to do with the entire discussion. 

You swooped in said some weak points and then said that people were sensitive about it. Sensitive what? To you thinking people want Darko to fail because he's a Serbian white kid? Serbians are my favorite Euro ballers. This is the problem with hype. There is hype and then there is _hype._ Lebron had hype and met his hype and has now exceeeded his hype.

However Darko, like many others before him (in this country alone) ala Chris Burgess, Schea Cotton, Lester Earl, Jonathan Bender, peaked early and seems rather overwhelmed with the major step up in competition. This happens all the time. Some guys don't live up to the hype. Why are people afraid to admit it?


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## xman (Feb 20, 2005)

I think it is because he is an unknown comodity. If we could have watched him play the last two years then I would have be more inclined to pass judgement. I don't know I just can't label him a bust sight unseen. I can go with you on one of your points however........ 



> *but they are well within their right to say it. You don't like it, tough noogies*


There is alot of wisdom in that Quote especially on a fan board full of varying opinions. Hell maybe I will agree with you that he is a bust in a couple years until I actually see him play consistant minutes it's something I can not do. However if he fails to crack that line up with signifigant minutes during the next two years I would tend to agree with you. However at age 20 with two years in the league, and considering he has to crack a formidable frontline to get playing time. I will not label him a bust just yet not after two years not any kid black or white.


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## bananas (Apr 20, 2003)

Screw TNT, Darko IS drama. Well, beyond Darko I don't consider Kwame close to a bust yet. KB is entering his fifth season and would have been graduating college this year. I see the skills and potential in him, like Darko it is primarily mental development that is needed. Both of these kids are known to have minor character problems relating to their respected teams. I believe a change of scenery for Kwame would do him well. 

T.H.V.C, well ofcourse he would look more productive on the Atlanta Hawks but only time will tell whether his commitment to the Pistons is a prosperous one. Like Brown, I examine Milicic and see he has some great natural honed abilities. Then I see his rebound positioning game in game out and his missed defensive assignments I have to remember he is 20 and has played under 500 total career minutes. So should the criticism be completely directed at Darko for his lack of playing time? No, I look at Detroit's roster and see the best frontcourt rotation in the league ahead of Darko. Then you factor in your prima donna coach who could have a made for TV movie life story-- who gets his way which is the right way, right? To sum up Darko the player he is like a foreign Aston Martin vehicle that needs a good driver.. so you would think maybe afew more seasons of seasoning for this youngster would be a valid time to then point-and-shout-and-scream DARKOBUSTO


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Darko isn't soft. He doesn't play hard if the games/minutes don't matter, but I don't see him as soft.

Dwight Howard had only 5 rebounds his 1st summer league game this year, does that make him soft?

I find it funny people are posting Darko's rebounding totals as proof of his "softness" when he's been the teams leading rebounder in both games. Outrebounding even the ultra-aggressive Maxiell.

I didn't watch either game, so I don't know if he looked bad or not- but box scores can be very deceiving. A lot of times in these situations big men struggle because the guard play simply isn't good enough for them to get any quality looks.

All the debating on the issue is just worthless really. He has skills, he hasn't played. That's really all their is to say. The day he was drafted Joe Dumars said he wouldn't be ready for 2 or 3 years. I guess people just didn't believe him.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

*I don't enjoy having to spend fifteen minutes going through a thread and deleting all the personal attacks. Cut it out now, or this thread gets shut down like a clam.*


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## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

Mike luvs KG said:


> All the debating on the issue is just worthless really. He has skills, he hasn't played. That's really all their is to say. The day he was drafted Joe Dumars said he wouldn't be ready for 2 or 3 years. I guess people just didn't believe him.


No offense but only a braindead GM would draft a player they think won't be ready until his contract is up. I mean honestly... what in the hell point would that be?


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Mike luvs KG said:


> All the debating on the issue is just worthless really. He has skills, he hasn't played. That's really all their is to say. *The day he was drafted Joe Dumars said he wouldn't be ready for 2 or 3 years*. I guess people just didn't believe him.


Man, what an understatement... "being ready" for what? 

Darko played 6.9mpg in the regular season and 2.3mpg in the playoffs. And this is a #2 pick in his sophomore year... Come on, that's absolutely ludicrous... 

The "playing for the championship on a satcked team" excuse is weraing old... I found it interesting to see Darko playing 2-3 minutes in severall blow out wins for the Pistons... Is THAT the way Joe D wants Darko to improve?


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## Lope31 (Jun 11, 2002)

I tried to read through this thread but couldn't finish. 

At the end of the day people that bash Darko, bash Darko for the sake of it. People that priase Darko likely praise Darko for the same reason. 

I can sit here and listen to HKF rant on about Brandon Hunter being a better player, or I can walk outside and slam my head in my car door. Neither of which are good decisions. But he's not the only one typing for the heck of it, everybody is. Trying to convince Darko haters to stop hating on Darko is like trying to tell them not to go ****, and likewise for Darko fans. 

I will summarize this thread for anybody that is just tuning in...


> "Darko's a bust"
> "Darko's not a bust"
> "I'm right and you're wrong"
> "No, I'm right, you are the wrong one"
> ...


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## kingofkings (Jun 9, 2002)

I can't see where the minutes are going to come from for Darko this year. Remember the Pistons know that they are playing within their window of opportunity and wont give Darko the meaningful minutes this year. Its easier to play the vets who have been there and done that and who are able to do the things that they know are right.

He can show everything in practice as much as he can. He can run the length of the floor in practice and dunk on and post up Ben Wallace all he likes, but until he gets into a game in the crunch and makes an impact, he won't be making it as a player.

I was one of the guys who learned that potential doesn't really mean much in the NBA anymore. Tim Thomas, Jon Bender, Stro Swift tearing up the practice courts? Its about getting the job done, being a factor and a difference maker for your team. 

the guy is under enormous pressure and the Pistons can try to lower the expectations as much as possible. But the guy had alot of hype around him and when you are the number 2 pick in a top heavy draft and the guys behind you are either nba all-stars, potential superstars, it is only normal and rational for the knives to start sharpening.

The guy simply has to produce on the court now. Enough of him getting better in practice. He has had in depth coaching and training for 2 years learning from high level coaches, The Wallaces, etc. If he can't get at least 10 mins per game as a backup now, he aint worth much, in my opinion.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

great post kingofkings. its like coach bernie bickerstaff said, i don't care how you do it, just as long as you get it done. and darko ain't gettin it done. if he was really that amazing in practice, joe dumars wouldn't keep signing guys like mcdyess and campbell back onto the squad. darko=bust of epic proportions


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## kingofkings (Jun 9, 2002)

Potential is like an oasis in the desert. The "p" word that is more important and more relevant in the NBA - is production. The NBA is one business where guys get paid millions of dollars based on potential rather than based on results, performance and skills.

Granted the guy plays for a hard coach in Brown who will yank him for rookie type mistakes. But that aint really the point. The point is, if he cant get on the court and make an impact, well he is just as valuable as a fan sitting in the stands. Honestly, that is the reality of it all.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

HKF said:


> **edited**


 lmao! kills me everytime!


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## midnight_balla (Apr 20, 2005)

Ok guys .Here's my 2 cents worth.Gotta agree with some of what HF said but not everything.Ifor 1 have seen Darko play his 1st pro game in Serbia.Darko is a phenom talent imo but he's got major motivation issues.For starters he's lazy undisciplined and really doesn't care much.I repeat he's a great talent but talent will only bring you very far.The biggest problem with Darko is he already thinks he's a superstar(not just a star) given that and listening to his agent its what has brought him to what we see now( a talent who ain't going nowhere).I myself haven't given up on Darko coz he's really immature now(some people mature later ),but once he realises only hard work pays off he will meet those expectations from Dumars.I say all this coz Darko has major talent and btw in europe he mainly played PF not Center.It all comes back to Darko himslef,if he wants it he has to bust his azz from now on and prove people wrong.This is a make of break for Darko,he has to do well in summer league and try to make the serbian team for the euro c'ships(won't be easy coz Nenad Krstic,Zeljko Rebraca,Peja Drobnjak are all vets and infront of him now).I for one won't judge him just yet ,i'll give him some more time but the clock is ticking real fast.


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## midnight_balla (Apr 20, 2005)

BTW,wheres my last post,cheers.


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## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

Poor Poor Darko. You have to watch out for Draftexpress, they are big time cheerleaders who need someone to reign them in. The way some of them hyped Ramos and Petro when they were on draft city was ridiculous. Ramos is at least two years away from helping and Petro sucks.


Regarding Darko he has looked terrible, Which is so ridiculous. The kid is talented but Larry Brown destroyed him, he is not a tough kid mentally. Which is to bad because physically speaking he has every gift you could ask for in a b-ball player his size. 

One of the most telltale things is lack of aggresiveness. I swear you just want to beat this kid senseless when you see him throw up layups and hook shots time after time after time. Somebody teach this kid how to dunk the crap out of the ball! He can!! He just won't!!! wtf is up with that!!! Even more frustrating is that the kid IS NOT STUPID. We're not talking about a Larry Hughes type of player who is gifted but needs a good degree of time to figure things out. He's a smart kid ( for an athlete) so wtf is the god damn hold up with this kid.


I support him but someone really needs to have an intervention with this guy before it gets to be to late. Something drastic along the lines of monetary compensation/penalization to break his mental hangups and stupid behavior patterns, otherwise he will be DOOMED to a carrier of mediocrity, and for him the clock is ticking, time is not his friend.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

HKF said:


> As for Darko, you can't unteach a guy being soft as butter. Getting your shot packed by Marcus Haislip = not good. :nonono:


Marcus Haislip is actually a pretty good shot blocker. I think of him as a poor man's Stromile Swift. Then again, I don't want to stand up for Darko, so I'll be silent now.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I sure as the devil don't care enough about Darko to read this thread,much less contribute much to it.The Pistons are trying to win titles and it's up to Darko to earn his playing time.If I were Dumars I would entertain offers for him rather than risk getting nothing for him when his contract expires.He is in a bad position,but it's really up to him to salvage himself.Coaches on bad teams develop players.Players on good teams have to force the coaches to put them on the floor.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

what, is nobody going to welcome me back. as for darko he can still get repsonses thats for sure. a lot of problems with his situation starting with him coming over too early and then detroit brass trying to, as they said, make him the next bill russell as opposed to the next tony kucoc. those of you too young to remember, a young tony kucoc was one of the best players in the world. the pistons should have let him play more facing the basket and then when he had some experience in the league and was able to bulk up then move him inside more. add to that the fact that brown basically did the marine boot camp number on him by completely destroying his confidence. that worked. at this point though he needs to start to turn things around for himself. i thought he played well in the last couple of regular season games even though it was against the junior varsity(atlanta and new orleans). i am always the optimist with young players like kwame brown and darko but it can take time.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

I've been always in favor giving Darko more time as he's still pretty much a kid in both basketball and off court term. But after his summer league performances you wonder if he will ever pan out, he's getting pretty much beaten up by guys like Lampe who are at the same stage as he is. This isn't even comparing to him other young big men like Howard and Biedrins (Golden State is going to be very good next year as Biedrins is a mean SOB with talent) who looked dominant.

Still hate giving up on these young guys before they have a real chance but I think if Darko shows nothing in training camp like summer league, I doubt he'll ever pan out in the league


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

bump for all you haters. darko is the man. that boy is a blocking machine and he looks very promising.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

..

12 pts, 8 rebs, 4 blocks tonight and even closed out the 4th quarter over Dwight Howard because the lineup he was in with was working well.

Kid can play. Recognize.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

I got to watch the game and he has some nice post moves, if he could just use them more often and get more looks he'd be a real threat down low, and he can go high post to compliment Dwight really well.


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## iverson101 (Mar 4, 2006)

Good bump. Lots of crow to be eaten.


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## JT3000 (Nov 3, 2004)

JNice said:


> ..
> 
> 12 pts, 8 rebs, 4 blocks tonight and even closed out the 4th quarter over Dwight Howard because the lineup he was in with was working well.
> 
> Kid can play. Recognize.


He closed out the 4th because Dwight played like crap.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

JT3000 said:


> He closed out the 4th because Dwight played like crap.



He wasn't that bad. He was frustrated not getting a lot of calls he should have gotten. Anyway, Dwight is entitled to a less than fantastic one now and again. But no, I think it had more to do with the lineup than Dwight's play.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

JNice said:


> He wasn't that bad. He was frustrated not getting a lot of calls he should have gotten. Anyway, Dwight is entitled to a less than fantastic one now and again. But no, I think it had more to do with the lineup than Dwight's play.


that and the fact that darko effing owns!!!


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## aNgelo5 (Oct 24, 2005)

hahha yeah man, I mean Darko i don't care his bad, he needs get sent down to the DLeague pretty sad that he went number 2 but ohh well, it doesnt matter if he so call "dominates" in the DLeague the Nba needs to know what his really about..


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## JT3000 (Nov 3, 2004)

^ Wtf?


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

aNgelo5 said:


> hahha yeah man, I mean Darko i don't care his bad, he needs get sent down to the DLeague pretty sad that he went number 2 but ohh well, it doesnt matter if he so call "dominates" in the DLeague the Nba needs to know what his really about..


He's a third-year pro, and therefore, ineligible to play in the D-League.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Darko is great for the NBA. It will mean more chances for young Euro big men and the league needs more good big men. I hope he becomes an All Star. 

However, I don't think he stays in Orlando. I think somebody is going to offer him >Eddy Curry money when he is restricted in 2007. If I am Orlando I try and lock him up this summer.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> Darko is great for the NBA. It will mean more chances for young Euro big men and the league needs more good big men. I hope he becomes an All Star.
> 
> However, I don't think he stays in Orlando. I think somebody is going to offer him >Eddy Curry money when he is restricted in 2007. If I am Orlando I try and lock him up this summer.



I agree and I think Orlando will try to lock him up this summer. Either that or they are blind. He's already proven in a short time he is a player and if Orlando gives him more minutes next year his stats are really going to rise ... along with the contract he'll be able to pull. Orlando should sign Darko and Ariza this summer because right now they can get both rather cheaply most likely.


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## JT3000 (Nov 3, 2004)

Err... I don't like Ariza. He's a spaz. The fact that Hill left him in at the end of last night's game made me question his competence. At least he pulled the plug on Arroyo, thank God.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

The Knicks didn't want Trevor Ariza. That should say something.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

urwhatueati8god said:


> The Knicks didn't want Trevor Ariza. That should say something.


Of course not. He plays hard and is good at defense.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

urwhatueati8god said:


> The Knicks didn't want Trevor Ariza. That should say something.


Look at who the Knicks _do_ want though. :angel:


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

Rawse said:


> Look at who the Knicks _do_ want though. :angel:


 uke: 
Hey, they wanted Qyntel Woods. He's still better than Ariza. Richardson sucks. Anybody making 5 million or higher on this team sucks, but Qyntel is good.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

come on HKF...eat your words!


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

CiMa said:


> come on HKF...eat your words!


Eat my words? Now I apologize, because I never saw this thread, but now that I have... let's compare.

Detroit: 1.5 ppg, 1.1 rpg, ah who cares, the rest of the stats are weak.
Orlando: 7.9 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 1.3 apg, 2.3 bpg

Now those numbers would be cool, if he wasn't a third year player, but I guess you find joy where you can.

Talk to me, when he starts putting up real numbers.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

HKF said:


> Eat my words? Now I apologize, because I never saw this thread, but now that I have... let's compare.
> 
> Detroit: 1.5 ppg, 1.1 rpg, ah who cares, the rest of the stats are weak.
> Orlando: 7.9 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 1.3 apg, 2.3 bpg
> ...


2.3 blocks in 20 mpg aren't real numbers?


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Yeah, he's a 3rd yr player but when he came in he was a project to begin with. Not someone who can come in and score 20 pts a game or make an impact. He was drafted out of potential. He's what freakin 20 yrs old? Not everyone can make an impact right away at that age or 3 yrs in, when expectations aren't that high by someone who is realistic on the situation. Even though he is #2 pick in the draft your expectations shouldn't be that high.. No matter what anyone thinks. I guess, people seem to block this all out of their minds.

He's getting time and coming along. He has plenty of time to get better.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

This is revisionist, but Darko was not considered a project in 2003. This was spun this way, once it was found out that he wasn't as good as he was hyped to be.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

I'll say it again. 2.3 blocks in 20 mpg are not real numbers? What is that, like 6th in the league? And that's counting the first 2 or 3 games where he only played like 3 minutes each and had no blocks. It's really more like 3 bpg.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The blocks are nice, but it's still only been 23 games.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

HKF said:


> The blocks are nice, but it's still only been 23 games.


Yea, he's got to have more time to get into game shape, and get more blocks. Good point.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Maybe some did. But how can they say that knowing most Euros avg less 10 pts or so? I remember seeing Darko came in overseas avging 5-10 pts overseas. That's considered a project. Not someone who's ready to come in and play right away. Realistically, you can't expect too much at the age of what 17 no less? it's not like he dominated over there with those stats even playing against men since he was what 12? It's a different game too.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I'm just saying that leading up to the draft, he wasn't considered a project. It's like Andrew Bogut for example. He was considered ready to compete at this level and while he has, he's got a long way to go.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

HKF said:


> I'm just saying that leading up to the draft, he wasn't considered a project. It's like Andrew Bogut for example. He was considered ready to compete at this level and while he has, he's got a long way to go.



He wasn't considered a project? I think you are wrong here. Especially considering the team that was drafting him. Darko was most definitely a project pick. I don't think they were expecting him to come into the league ready to go.


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## 96 draft (Apr 1, 2006)

milicic looks pretty good out there, its incredible what a change of scenery can do for a player... even if he never lives up to the hype of his #2 overall draft status, orlando should be proud of themselves for getting a solid player for very little... his post moves look very refined and he's been a great defensive presence, watching him and dwight should be very exciting in the next few years


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

JNice said:


> He wasn't considered a project? I think you are wrong here. Especially considering the team that was drafting him. Darko was most definitely a project pick. I don't think they were expecting him to come into the league ready to go.


I'm not talking about when the Pistons selected him. I'm talking about the weeks leading up to the draft. NBA teams felt he was a franchise big man. Good enough to be a superstar. That's obviously not correct.

Projects obviously have varying degrees. There's Jermaine O'Neal project, there's Rafael Araujo project. He wasn't so much of a project, that they expected him to not play at all for 2 full years.

Although I do blame Larry Brown for that.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

HKF said:


> I'm not talking about when the Pistons selected him. I'm talking about the weeks leading up to the draft. NBA teams felt he was a franchise big man. Good enough to be a superstar. That's obviously not correct.
> 
> Projects obviously have varying degrees. There's Jermaine O'Neal project, there's Rafael Araujo project. He wasn't so much of a project, that they expected him to not play at all for 2 full years.
> 
> Although I do blame Larry Brown for that.



Ok .. but why is that obviously not correct? It won't happen in Orlando because Orlando is clearly Dwight Howard's team ... but I'm not so sure Darko couldn't be a superstar big on another team if given the opportunity. If he stays in Orlando he'll need to accept and adapt to being Dwight's wingman. 

Dwight is bigger, stronger, and more explosive but quite honestly Darko is far more naturally skilled. His post moves are much better and more advanced than Dwight's. Darko can shoot all the way out to just inside the 3pt line. Darko's passing is very good. Darko is clearly a top notch shotblocker. The only area Dwight completely trumps Darko is in rebounding although Darko hasn't been terrible.

It was a beautiful thing in the last game to see Darko score over Rasheed Wallace, one of the top big man defenders in the league, twice on post-ups with beautiful moves ... a nice left-handed hook and then he even pulled a turnaround fade-away over Sheed.

Considering Darko is still around one of the 20 youngest players this year and that this is really his rookie year I think he is doing pretty damned good. His numbers aren't spectacular but they are solid and his actual impact on the court has been better than his numbers indicate. In only a couple games has he had little impact or any sort of negative impact.

It will be interesting down the road to see what develops between Darko and Dwight. Will they accept each others strengths and weaknesses and form maybe the best big man duo we've seen in a while or will one of them want more, get pissed, and want out. Two years from now there is no reason Orlando should have a single non-fastbreak possession where Darko or Dwight doesn't touch the ball on the block.


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## Arti (Nov 6, 2004)

HKF said:


> I'm not talking about when the Pistons selected him. I'm talking about the weeks leading up to the draft. NBA teams felt he was a franchise big man. Good enough to be a superstar. That's obviously not correct.
> 
> Projects obviously have varying degrees. There's Jermaine O'Neal project, there's Rafael Araujo project. He wasn't so much of a project, that they expected him to not play at all for 2 full years.
> 
> Although I do blame Larry Brown for that.


More like good enough to _become_ a superstar, not become one right away. That, by definition, is a project. Larry Brown just happens to favor experienced players heavily. Darko has gotten a lot better since he broke his hand trying to dunk.

I'm betting Darko will have stats like 13/8 next year.


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## Unique (Apr 13, 2005)

Kwame>Darko :clap:


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## Ryoga (Aug 31, 2002)

urwhatueati8god said:


> uke:
> Hey, they wanted Qyntel Woods. He's still better than Ariza. Richardson sucks. Anybody making 5 million or higher on this team sucks, but Qyntel is good.


Qyntel should die


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## CrackerJack (Jul 2, 2005)

Ryoga said:


> Qyntel should die


man wtf, is there something wrong in your head that just aint right


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## Ryoga (Aug 31, 2002)

He's the only guy in the NBA I really hate.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

JNice said:


> Considering Darko is still around one of the 20 youngest players this year and that this is really his rookie year I think he is doing pretty damned good. His numbers aren't spectacular but they are solid and his actual impact on the court has been better than his numbers indicate. In only a couple games has he had little impact or any sort of negative impact.


But.. it *isn't* his rookie year!

I really don't get people who are now automatically getting rid of the bust label off Darko because of what he is doing in Orlando. He is not doing that much in Orlando! 2 BPG in 20 minutes, is good. But Marvin Williams is putting up better numbers in his real rookie year, yet people have already put the bust label on him. So why do people think it's all good with Darko all of a sudden? He's still got to do a lot more before I praise him.


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

i sense the words "because he's a white stiff" or something along those lines rapidly being assembled..

n how the hell did he break his hand trying to dunk?!
he's 7 feet tall!
my friend's only 5'11 n he can dunk!
(and yes, he is white too)

on the other hand, the block stats are ace, n as long as he's never on the court without dwight or another strong rebounder (unless he improves) it'll be fine.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

TheATLien said:


> But.. it *isn't* his rookie year!
> 
> I really don't get people who are now automatically getting rid of the bust label off Darko because of what he is doing in Orlando. He is not doing that much in Orlando! 2 BPG in 20 minutes, is good. But Marvin Williams is putting up better numbers in his real rookie year, yet people have already put the bust label on him. So why do people think it's all good with Darko all of a sudden? He's still got to do a lot more before I praise him.



This is the first time Darko is getting any meaningful minutes and that is after coming to a team late in the season and not playing hardly at all in 2 yrs. How did Marvin look earlier this season before he had caught up to the NBA game and before he knew his teammates? It took time for Marvin to start playing decent. Am I wrong? Anyway, the idiots calling Marvin a bust right now are the same idiots who called Darko a bust. If Darko was so bad you wouldn't see all his previous teammates continuing to support him and say they knew he'd be a player.

Darko most likely won't ever live up to being the 2nd pick in that draft but as an Orlando fan, we don't care. I think it is easy now to remove the "bust" label from him. At worst Darko will be a solid starter in the NBA. At worst. It is more than just the 2 BPG. A lot more, but you have to watch him to see it.

Just to get an idea of where I see Darko going ... I think 2 yrs from now with Darko starting next to Dwight (assuming Orlando is smart and gets him signed) he will be putting up something along the lines of 15 ppg, 8 rpg, 3 apg, 3 bpg.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

JNice, a solid starter at the No. 2 pick is a bust. Believe it or not. No one wants to draft in the top 3 and take solid starters.


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

ah, but orlando didnt spend a draft pick getting him.
they spent cato's contract (n got carlos arroyo as well)

which lessens the....mistake? of darko's draft position in my opinion.
darko can be a better blocker than cato, a better scorer, and getting arroyo as well just ups the bonus.
(cant say i know exactly how much cato's contract was though.. but then this year's FA class isnt that great, i think getting those two is doing alright for orlando)


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

HKF said:


> JNice, a solid starter at the No. 2 pick is a bust. Believe it or not. No one wants to draft in the top 3 and take solid starters.


 Which means nothing anymore. Everyone knows he was a bad pick for the Pistons at #2, but a solid starter is great value for what the Magic gave up to get him (Kelvin Cato's contract), not to mention also getting Arroyo.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

hobojoe said:


> Which means nothing anymore. Everyone knows he was a bad pick for the Pistons at #2, but a solid starter is great value for what the Magic gave up to get him (Kelvin Cato's contract), not to mention also getting Arroyo.


This is not true. For the Magic it was a great value because they did not select him No. 2. For the Pistons they will always be remembered taking him at No. 2 over Melo, Bosh and Wade, who have all developed into superstar caliber players.


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## PaCeRhOLiC (May 22, 2005)

Darko = :no:


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

HKF said:


> This is not true. For the Magic it was a great value because they did not select him No. 2. For the Pistons they will always be remembered taking him at No. 2 over Melo, Bosh and Wade, who have all developed into superstar caliber players.


Well the Pistons are in a no win situation, even if Darko becomes a superstar (won't/can't happen) they'll get grief for trading him.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Coatesvillain said:


> Well the Pistons are in a no win situation, even if Darko becomes a superstar (won't/can't happen) they'll get grief for trading him.


And I wouldn't have it any other way, although I told you why I think they traded him because Amir Johnson will be just as good as him on the pro level.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

HKF said:


> And I wouldn't have it any other way, although I told you why I think they traded him because Amir Johnson will be just as good as him on the pro level.



They traded him and Arroyo for monetary reasons because they are going to cash out Ben Wallace this summer.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

HKF said:


> JNice, a solid starter at the No. 2 pick is a bust. Believe it or not. No one wants to draft in the top 3 and take solid starters.



Go back and look at the top 5 picks in the last decade. Besides 2003, whose top 5 is incredibly strong not including Darko, and the drafts are littered with guys who aren't even in the league any more and the rest of the guys are mostly solid starters or contributors with just a few real stars. Everyone has this perception that they are going to land a superstar with a lotto pick and it just isn't that easy.

If Darko ends up putting up 15-8-3-3 which is around where I think he can go that is in no way bust numbers. And he could probably do more down the road if he wasn't on a team that already has a potentially dominant big man.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

JNice said:


> Go back and look at the top 5 picks in the last decade. Besides 2003, whose top 5 is incredibly strong not including Darko, and the drafts are littered with guys who aren't even in the league any more and the rest of the guys are mostly solid starters or contributors with just a few real stars. Everyone has this perception that they are going to land a superstar with a lotto pick and it just isn't that easy.
> 
> If Darko ends up putting up 15-8-3-3 which is around where I think he can go that is in no way bust numbers. And he could probably do more down the road if he wasn't on a team that already has a potentially dominant big man.


20/8/3/3
magic will start runnning plays 4 him, more plays=more points


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

pmac34 said:


> 20/8/3/3
> magic will start runnning plays 4 him, more plays=more points


I doubt he'll get that high. Dwight will probably be getting at or just above 20 ppg next year. I can't imagine both of them putting up 20 or more on a nightly basis. On another team I think he could eventually average 20 ppg.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

JNice said:


> They traded him and Arroyo for monetary reasons because they are going to cash out Ben Wallace this summer.


And Chauncey Billups next summer, and they weren't interested in getting their pipes cleaned by the luxury tax. Of course, that first from Orlando's looking a little weak at the moment.


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## RunTMC (May 11, 2003)

JNice said:


> If Darko ends up putting up 15-8-3-3 which is around where I think he can go that is in no way bust numbers. And he could probably do more down the road if he wasn't on a team that already has a potentially dominant big man.


Just to chime in real quick, Darko's per 36 stats from his time with Orlando are:

13.3ppg
7.7rpg
2.2apg
2.4to
0.7spg
3.9bpg

Which is very solid. Given the starting role and a couple years of actual playing time I would expect Darko could rather easily put up 20/8/3/4, personally, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was more than that. The kid is still only 20 years old and has just over 1000 total career minutes, which is roughly the equivalent of one season at about 12 minutes a game. Even beyond looking at the numbers, just watching him play you can tell the kid is a player. It's a shame Orlando's management botched so many decisions over the last couple years - imagine if they had gotten Granger or someone instead of Vasquez and still had Mobley, they'd be legitimate contenders in a year or two. Oh well, I for one, am not worried at all about Darko, I think he's going to be more than fine.


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