# All Buyout Team...



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Apparantly Layden did have a plan...The All Buyout team..Shadone is facing a buyout if hes lucky and guess who else just may be bought out....yes,Mr Eisly





> "FADING FAST: Suns point guard Howard Eisley, also an ex-Stockton backup, is doing little to impress in Phoenix.With former Dallas Mavericks star Steve Nash now in town with a six-year, $66 million deal, and young Brazilian Leandro Barbosa in line to backup Nash, Eisley is trying to fend off a rookie from Japan, BYU-Hawaii product Yuta Tabuse, for Phoenix's No. 3 point position. Even with two years and $13-plus million left on his current deal, some in Phoenix suggest 10-season vet Eisley may be a contract-buyout candidate."


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Oh yawn. You fully know that Layden did not give Anderson and Eisley their contracts, and you probably forgot that *the guy they were traded for (Rice) was also bought out* (outright waived by the Jazz, actually). The Knicks got more out of them than they did Rice, who played a whopping 100 games in the 3 seasons after the trade.


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## NYKFan123 (Sep 26, 2004)

And who even said to get Rice? Nobody. Rather than just lettig Ewing rid out his deal we traded for over the hill garbage and traded a contract that would've expired 1 year later in Rice for Anderson and Eisley. Layden did not give them the deals, no, he was even stupider in trading for them.


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## NYKFan123 (Sep 26, 2004)

And who even said to get Rice? Nobody. Rather than just lettig Ewing rid out his deal we traded for over the hill garbage and traded a contract that would've expired 1 year later in Rice for Anderson and Eisley. Layden did not give them the deals, no, he was even stupider in trading for them.

Oh yes....and Eisley sucks.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> And who even said to get Rice?


*DOLAN*. Ewing wanted a trade, and Dolan said trade him.



> and traded a contract that would've expired 1 year later in Rice


Uh, no. Rice had a 4 year deal.



> Layden did not give them the deals, no, he was even stupider in trading for them.


It's more the "stay in contention" mindset that the team was supposed to have (and sadly still have to this day). Like it or not, Eisley/Anderson did more for the team than Rice. The problem was that Camby was injured in 01-02, and McDyess was injured in 02-03. When Luc Longley had his career ending injury, the Knicks had to start Felton Spencer.

But you can keep pretending that the Knicks were losing games because of two bench players.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

RAshidi, I love how you call all of Layden's bad moves Dolan's doing with no evidence to support it.

Layden started with the Knicks in Sept '99 and the Ewing trade occurred in Sept '00. How could that not be Layden's deal? Personnel decisions certainly fell under his job description. Yes he was asked to trade Ewing from above, but it was his job to come up with a sensible trade.

And if there were any wild scenario whereby Checketts or Dolan (how do you put him into this?) had to come up with a trade it could only mean he was too pathetic to do his job for himself.

He got off to a decent start when the deal was going to be Ewing and parts for Rice and a pre-alcoholic all-star Vin Baker. When Vin fell out of the deal Layden pushed ahead anyway picking up the bad contracts of an injured Longley and the horrible Travis Knight (who he later cut).

What might have made that lousy deal more palatable were the two first round picks that were included. But in typical Layden fashion 5 months later he tossed them both away for scrubs in Jackson and Harrington. A few months after that came the Rice for Anderson and Eisley trade.

In effect, within a year the trade turned into Ewing+Dudley for Longley (injured, cut inside of a year) Knight (horrible worthless contract) Eisley, Jackson, and Othella. *ALL Layden's doing.*

If you really want to break your heart you could look at how many guys we could have had with those two picks, and I mean guys who went late in the draft: Zach Randolph, Dalembert, Arenas, Tony Parker, Memet Okur, etc. But sadly Layden had a penchant for flat footed flat footed veterans.

You may ultimately think those deals around Ewing were good. Fine, then defend them on those grounds, but don't try to pawn it off on somebody else. 

Ditto the 100M to Houston. Layden knew how to kill a club on his own, he didn't need help from the owner.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> But you can keep pretending that the Knicks were losing games because of two bench players.


Not so fast...they were a large part of the problem



> McDyess was injured in 02-03


and he was seriously injured before that..Of couse Dolan insisted that Layden trade away a solid draft pick plus Camby.Layden just followed orders


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!But you can keep pretending that the Knicks were losing games because of two bench players.


What's sad is that Eisley had 33 starts last year in half a season and Anderson 37. That scrubs like them (both looking to get cut by their respective teams) were starting is why we were losing.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> "Isiah probably wouldn't have wanted me to leave," Sprewell said. *"It came from Dolan. It's his team. As a GM it would be hard to go against what the owner says."*


That's how it is in ALL of NY sports.



> What's sad is that Eisley had 33 starts last year in half a season and Anderson 37. That scrubs like them (both looking to get cut by their respective teams) were starting is why we were losing.


And if they hadn't traded Rice, who would have started?



> Not so fast...they were a large part of the problem


And an injured Rice would have been a larger problem. Anderson/Eisley were valuable and positive contributors in 02-03. That team won only 2 fewer games than this year's team, despite McDyess' season long injury, and the team would have made the playoffs (as the 8th seed) this season. Silly me, I forgot how much better it is to be a 7th seed rather than 8th. And according to what is coming out of Detroit, McDyess is healthy again and will get starters minutes this season. I think I might prefer a tandem of McDyess/Crawford over Marbury/Crawford.



> RAshidi, I love how you call all of Layden's bad moves Dolan's doing with no evidence to support it.


I have presented evidence many times.

1. Articles that state Dolan told Layden to trade Ewing when he demanded the trade.

2. The simple notion that most of the trades made by this team have been a trickle down effect of the forced Ewing trade. The fact that the original trade brought in Baker/Rice/Knight instead of Rice/Longley/Knight/scrubs doesn't hurt either.

3. Sprewell getting traded. He certainly didn't curse out Layden in front of his family. It has always been Dolan, I don't think he has EVER mentioned Layden.

4. Van Gundy himself said he felt Layden's hand was forced on more than one occasion (Probably referring to more than just the obvious Ewing/Sprewell).



> and he was seriously injured before that..Of couse Dolan insisted that Layden trade away a solid draft pick plus Camby.Layden just followed orders


Who is to say that Isiah isn't? Layden was unpopular, and newspaper writers hated his secrecy. Isiah is more colorful and isn't afraid to open his mouth (even if garbage is the only thing that comes out). Don't forget that Layden did most of the ground work on the Marbury trade, and that hiring a new GM so he can take credit for it and get off on the right foot was likely in the best interests of the team. It's hardly some coincidence that Layden was fired the day Spree returned to town. If you believe it is, you're probably one of the few that thinks Shandon being benched in his home town to end the streak was a coincidence too.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> I have presented evidence many times.
> 
> 1. Articles that state Dolan told Layden to trade Ewing when he demanded the trade.
> 
> ...


See we are talking about two different things. I acknowledge that Layden was asked to trade Ewing. (I think it was a bad move but it was a favor to the bigman who served the franchise well for so long.) We don't have issues there. But you have a way of insinuating that Layden was forced to make the specific trade(s) that he made. 

If you work for me as an interior decorator and I ask you to come up with a classy color scheme for my living room and you shoot the budget on fluoresent orange who's at fault?

And try to be consistent. You blame the Ewing trade on Dolan or Checketts (it seems to vary) but since you liked the trade for Van Horn you usaully credit Layden for that (but seemingly not here.)





> Who is to say that Isiah isn't? Layden was unpopular, and newspaper writers hated his secrecy. Isiah is more colorful and isn't afraid to open his mouth (even if garbage is the only thing that comes out). Don't forget that Layden did most of the ground work on the Marbury trade, and that hiring a new GM so he can take credit for it and get off on the right foot was likely in the best interests of the team.


The degree of Layden's involvement is purely speculative. I've heard he was unwilling to involve Hardaway in the deal, and it's hard to imagine it getting done without him. And indeed we see that a) it didn't get done without him, b) it didn't get done by Layden, c) few deals did get done by Layden (see my sig), d) Layden had a reputation for asking for the moon and trying to hit homeruns every time (I guess he got that reputation not for homeruns but the many strikeouts long ballers are known for.)


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> And try to be consistent. You blame the Ewing trade on Dolan or Checketts (it seems to vary) but since you liked the trade for Van Horn you usaully credit Layden for that (but seemingly not here.)


Actually, you just made me remember that it was Checketts (I don't vary). But Ewing probably wasn't enthused with the change in ownership that was about to occur. He probably wanted out on his own terms because the new ownership would have wanted him out anyway.

I was one of the few that liked the trade because it improved our rebounding and post scoring. Van Horn would still be the best or second best inside presence if he were still with the team (depending on how ready you think Sweetney is). That doesn't take away from the fact that he was forced into trading the popular/talented Sprewell.

By the way, would you have essentially traded Sprewell for Tim Thomas and Nazr Mohammed?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> I've heard he was unwilling to involve Hardaway in the deal, and it's hard to imagine it getting done without him.


I still think it's funny that most people would rather have Penny than Eisley. Penny makes twice as much as Eisley. Just goes to show you how people formulate their opinions on popularity. Nobody has said a word about Penny's contract since he came to NY.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

And newsflash for the "all-buyout team", *if Penny were on any other team but the Knicks, they'd be trying to buy him out too.*


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> Actually, you just made me remember that it was Checketts (I don't vary). But Ewing probably wasn't enthused with the change in ownership that was about to occur. He probably wanted out on his own terms because the new ownership would have wanted him out anyway.


Rashidi, a Cablevision bought a stake in the Knicks along with ITT in 1995. Then Cablevision bought out ITT in 1997. They've been the sole owners ever since. Ewing was traded in 2000. I don't know what you are talking about and it appears you don't either.



> I was one of the few that liked the trade because it improved our rebounding and post scoring. Van Horn would still be the best or second best inside presence if he were still with the team (depending on how ready you think Sweetney is). That doesn't take away from the fact that he was forced into trading the popular/talented Sprewell.


This came as a non sequitur. You liked what trade, Ewing or Spree?



> By the way, would you have essentially traded Sprewell for Tim Thomas and Nazr Mohammed?


I don't know yet. I was against the Sprewell trade but in hindsight it may not have been so bad and perhaps the Van Horn for TT/Nazr trade will be a bust. I always said I'd need to see what happens this season. 

I'm not out to say everything Layden did was horrible and everything Isiah does is genius. But I do say overall Layden did a horrible job and so far overall Isiah is doing a significantly better job.

But I don't do for Isiah what you do for Layden and credit him for the good moves but blame Dolan for the bad ones. Isiah is responsible for the ship while he's the captain, as was Layden. If you could understand that simple concept you and I would disagree with much less frequency.




> I still think it's funny that most people would rather have Penny than Eisley. Penny makes twice as much as Eisley. Just goes to show you how people formulate their opinions on popularity. Nobody has said a word about Penny's contract since he came to NY.


There are several reasons for this. Penny was once a top star in the league, people respect that. If he maintains his health this season he could be a significant contributor. And mostly it's because he was part of the expense of OBTAINING Marbury. Shandon and Eisley were an expense for LOSING Ewing. See the difference? With Layden you pay coming and going.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Rashidi, a Cablevision bought a stake in the Knicks along with ITT in 1995. Then Cablevision bought out ITT in 1997. They've been the sole owners ever since. Ewing was traded in 2000. I don't know what you are talking about and it appears you don't either.


Then i guess I DON'T remember. Which makes sense. You threw me off since you said I vary with Checketts and Dolan. Pray tell, why exactly would I vary with Checketts and Dolan, if I don't even remember when Checketts left?



> This came as a non sequitur. You liked what trade, Ewing or Spree





> I was one of the few that liked the trade because it *improved our rebounding and post scoring*


Obviously the Ewing trade. Rice > Ewing in scoring, and Longley and Knight >>>>>>>>>> Ewing in rebounding.



> But I don't do for Isiah what you do for Layden and credit him for the good moves but blame Dolan for the bad ones.


Dolan hasn't left his fingerprints on any moves yet.



> There are several reasons for this. Penny was once a top star in the league, people respect that.


Like I said. *He's more popular.* That's the only reason you're defending him. *Vin Baker was once a top star in the league too*, and that didn't stop Boston and Seattle from doing everything in their power to get out of his contract. Seattle went as far as trading him for Vitaly Potapenko with 30 million left on his deal. The Suns want to buyout Eisley? Good for them, they earned it. He's only got 13 million on his deal. *Penny makes more than that this season alone (nevermind next year)*. Buying out Eisley is a lot cheaper and easier than buying out Penny. You think Phoenix would have Joe Johnson (not being held back by), Quentin Richardson, and Steve Nash if they still had Marbury and Penny? No way in hell.



> If he maintains his health this season he could be a significant contributor.


Howard Eisley 02-03
9.1 ppg
2.3 rpg
5.4 apg
1.8 tpg
0.9 spg
0.1 bpg
.417 fg%
.389 3pt% (131-337)
.848 ft%
82 games
11.26 EFF

Shandon Anderson 02-03
8.4 ppg
3.1 rpg
1.1 apg
0.9 spg
0.2 bpg
1.4 tpg
21.1 mpg
.422 fg%
.371 3pt% (52-140)
.732 ft%
82 games
8.13 EFF

By significant contributor, do you mean numbers better or worse than those? And we're assuming of course, that he doesn't break a finger nail and miss a months worth of games.



> Shandon and Eisley were an expense for LOSING Ewing.


You mean LOSING a Glen Rice that averaged 33 games a year. 



> See the difference? With Layden you pay coming and going.


Whereas with Isiah it remains to be seen if 

1. Marbury can even turn the Knicks into more than a mediocre .500 team
2. if McDyess is a healthy force
3. they miss out on special players with those draft picks (this year it was Al Jefferson, Kirk Snyder, Jameer Nelson, Sebastian Telfair, and Pavel Podzolkine)
4. Lampe breaks out (at age 18 he certainly didn't struggle like Darko and Nikoloz Tskitishvili have)

Marbury will be the 6th highest paid player in the league next year (and that will only go higher with each passing year, to 08-09 when he is pulling down 21.9 million at age what, 33?). Penny btw, is the 8th highest paid player in the league. He makes only 2.9 million less than Allan OmGz HeZ oVeRpAeD Houston. Which makes it humorous how few people talk about Penny's contract, when they're willing to talk about all the bad ones that the previous regime added. At least Houston has averaged at least 18 ppg since getting his deal. The last time Penny averaged that was 96-97.

The difference between myself and other people here is I think Isiah has made many questionable moves, for which the answers will not be shown for awhile, whereas other people are proclaiming that he has not only made the right moves, but that the answer has already arrived. Marbury is not the answer, he hasn't been for any franchise he has played on. Neither is Crawford. The Knicks traded Sprewell because they were guard heavy. Well, they're still guard heavy. The answer isn't a bunch of shoot first PGs. The answer is a big man. At the very least Layden tried to answer that with McDyess. And before McDyess was lost literally out of nowhere, he was playing very effectively, good enough to be the 2nd best big man in the east.

Both GMs misplayed their card with McDyess. Layden rushed him back partially because the Knicks needed to see what he had, to showcase him for trade (or decide to keep him) but also because Layden probably felt pressure from upstairs. Isiah traded him too early. Rasheed Wallace and Kenyon Martin were both free agents this summer. If McDyess isn't the answer, I'd rather have either of those players than Marbury. *Denver only dealt 3 first round picks for K-Mart. The Knicks dealt two first rounders, Lampe, and 20 million in cap space for Marbury AND the most overpaid player in the league (Penny).* Rasheed was traded for Abdur-Rahim, but the main thing Portland wants is salary relief. If Isiah is as creative as everyone makes him out to be, you'd think he'd have been able to work out a deal for Sheed and Damon Stoudamire, one that would have left the Knicks enough pieces to still trade for Crawford, and who knows, maybe even get someone in the first round this year (Telfair, Nelson).


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I'm in a hurry to get out for the day but I wanted to quickly reply that I agree with your assessments on Isiah's moves. In perfect hindsight it might have been possible for him to expiring contracts for SAR and Ratliff, kept Lampe and/or picks, and still gone for Crawford, for example. But that's in perfect hindsight. But the Marbury move might not be so far off, time will tell.

A few GMs once in a while get to make the perfect moves. Dumars has been brilliant in Detroit, Kiki has been in Denver. But we have the benefit of years of performance to judge them by. With Isiah it's months. Evrybody assumes the Marbury trade will be his signature move which defines his legacy. It maybe, but what he does with TT< PEnny, and Nazr's expiring contracts next year may be equally important, as well has his draft picks, player development and coaching selection. But with Layden we HAD four years, he had sufficient time to leave his mark and his mark was not a good one.

Still some will break down his moves and say each one isn't so bad, and if such and such had happened, etc. Fine, somethings are a matter of luck and taste. If you like Layden's moves and style of players I cant argue with taste (though I think his win-loss record speak for itself). I mostly argue with the assessment he had to make the moves he made. I agree he had to move Ewing and Spree, but I don't agree he had to make the specific trades he made. But if you want to give him credit for the Spree trade he must also take "credit" for the Ewing and Rice trades, Houston's contract, trading four first round picks in four years, Chaney's extensions, Frank and Sweets chained to the bench, Spree's disrespect, etc . It's that simple - he has a record to be judged by, and it is HIS record.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> And newsflash for the "all-buyout team", *if Penny were on any other team but the Knicks, they'd be trying to buy him out too.*


With the reports that Penny is healthier than he's been in years...

What if we assume TT and Ariza can hold down the SF position, and Crawford and eventually Allan (limited minutes) can hold down the SG...

What if we just end this backup SG controversy between Norris and Brewer, two servicable nobodys, and just make Penny our designated backup PG? We know Marbury will be playing 36 mins or more leaving only 12 or less for Penny. Does he still have the athleticism to ball handle and penetrate? If he does what better way to utilize one of our highest bball IQ players?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Denver only dealt 3 first round picks for K-Mart. The Knicks dealt two first rounders, Lampe, and 20 million in cap space for Marbury AND the most overpaid player in the league (Penny).


you refuse to learn basketball economocs 101...cap space is MEANINGLESS when you are so far over the cap.What is the difference if you are 10 million over the cap or 50 million.Either way,you cant sign free agents.As long as the H20 albatross of a contract exists,The Shandone fiasco and any other nuclear waste from laydumb,cap space is MEANINGLESS......

When TT.Penny,H2o,Shandone all come off the books,then talk about CAP SPACE..Until thenits MEANIGLESS,especially to Cablevision as MSG is one of their few profitable divisions..

The Knicks dealt a conditional pick,a non lottery pick and Lampe..I think the Denver picks are better picks..If you think Ariza is overhyped then Lampe is a BUM..At least be consistent...

And once and for all,stop bringing Penny into this...He was filler,he was an accomodation to the trade...As for the worst contracts in the league,Eisly and Shandone both start for the "never injured" pure garbage" overpaid team...Penny is better than Shandone on one knee....

When are you ever going to get over the fact that Layden was just awful and that is why he is unemployed


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

And speaking of the all buyout team,we certainly know who the GM is..Laydumb..And in case you were wondering who should coach them,I will give you a hint...

He was hand picked by laydumb and singlehandedly ruined the Knick careers of two of our superstars..Yes that imbecile,Don Chaney..

The man played Mcdyss a full 40 something minutes in a MEANINGLESS PRE SEASON game and we all know the results of that...

Did the moron learn his lesson??

Hmmmm..you decide....



> Houston sat out most of 2003-04 training camp after having arthroscopic surgery on his right knee in June. He then played 49 minutes in the Knicks' season-opening overtime loss to the Orlando Magic and months later Houston said that his body never recovered from that one game.


Not only is layden clueless about players and contracts,he is brain dead when it comes to coaches....


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> He was hand picked by laydumb and singlehandedly ruined the Knick careers of two of our superstars..Yes that imbecile,Don Chaney..


Whaattt????

*Don Chaney was handpicked by Van Gundy.* Chaney was his lead assistant and Van Gundy quit. Chaney finished out the year (which was lost the moment Camby went down) and nearly took the Knicks to the playoffs (a .500 record after Spree returned, and notably without McDyess OR Camby). It's not like Lenny Wilkins has done anything noteworthy since getting here either.

And since when did the Knicks have a superstar? They haven't had a superstar since 93-94.



> The man played Mcdyss a full 40 something minutes in a MEANINGLESS PRE SEASON game and we all know the results of that...


Meaningless preseason game? If you can't go 40 minutes in a preseason game, then how can you do it in regular season? McDyess' knee didn't pop because Chaney played him an extra 10 minutes. It blew out on an effortless dunk

My brother recently suffered a stress fracture in one of his vertabrae. This injury occured in pretty much the same manner McDyess's did - on a common play, with no warning. My brother had no history of back problems either. He went up for a layup (no contact made by opposition), and felt it crack in mid-air. He was going to try out for the school basketball team the next day, and now it turns out that he won't be able to do anything athletic for at least the next 4 months as he wears a back brace.

McDyess wasn't medically cleared to play by Chaney, nor was he medically cleared to play by Layden. *He was medically cleared to play by DOCTORS*, not to mention the Knicks Medical Staff, headed by a 20 year Knick vet (I think Mike Francesca).



> Houston sat out most of 2003-04 training camp after having arthroscopic surgery on his right knee in June. He then played 49 minutes in the Knicks' season-opening overtime loss to the Orlando Magic and months later Houston said that his body never recovered from that one game.


It's also Houston's fault for trying to play through the injury. He wanted to play, and he acknowledged that in previous articles saying that he shouldn't have tried to play through injuries like he did in the past (because the fans are ungrateful to that). If you remember (which I doubt you do, he of the 90 day limited warranty memory), Houston also played most of 98-99 with a bad wrist on his shooting hand that was still recovering from surgery. He also played through the knee problems in 02-03. I recall there was one stretch (around the 50 point games) where he had a bunch of 30 point games sandwiched between a couple 2-11s. That was when he started having the knee trouble, and he played through it rather than take a seat on the IR while the team was fighting for the playoffs.

I suppose we should blame Pat Riley and Jeff Van Gundy for annhilating Ewing's knees.



> The Knicks dealt a conditional pick,a non lottery pick and Lampe..I think the Denver picks are better picks..


You're just saying that, with no show of evidence. Denver will defintely have a pick in the 20s this year. The Knicks have to keep their pick this year (they can't trade it until AFTER they draft someone), but I don't see the Knicks having a pick in the 20s at ANY point in the next 5 years. Since the conditions of the pick require it to actually be in the 20s, it's more than likely that the Knicks have given up a high pick, ala the Grizzlies in 2003 with Darko (from the Otis Thorpe trade, of all places). What are the conditions of the Denver picks? And would it have been a problem for the Knicks to actually remove the conditions of the pick if they would have gotten K-Mart instead?




> If you think Ariza is overhyped then Lampe is a BUM..At least be consistent...


1. Lampe is a big man.
2. At age 18 (now 19) Lampe is quite possibly a better shooter than Ariza will EVER be at any point in his career.
3. Lampe is only 4 months older than Ariza but is now entering his second pro year.
3. Ariza is undersized for SF and can't shoot enough to play SG.
4. The Knicks need players that weigh 275 pounds, not 200.



> What if we just end this backup SG controversy between Norris and Brewer, two servicable nobodys, and just make Penny our designated backup PG? We know Marbury will be playing 36 mins or more leaving only 12 or less for Penny. Does he still have the athleticism to ball handle and penetrate? If he does what better way to utilize one of our highest bball IQ players?


Penny can do this from the 3 spot in a point forward role, but he's not quick enough at the 1 or 2. I doubt he's any healthier than he was in 01-02, 02-03, or 03-04. I'm sure it was said somewhere during the last 3 years that "Penny feels healthy again". I'm not against him bringing the ball up, as long as at least one of Crawford/Marbury are on the floor. But really, that's as significant as his role is going to get, just from a glass half full perspective. He won't be worth his contract any more than Shandon would be.



> If you like Layden's moves and style of players I cant argue with taste (though I think his win-loss record speak for itself). I mostly argue with the assessment he had to make the moves he made. I agree he had to move Ewing and Spree, but I don't agree he had to make the specific trades he made.


The thing is that Ewing wasn't valuable. He was what, 38 years old and making 17 million dollars entering his free agent year? The only thing you were going to get back was players that teams WANTED to dump, like Baker, Longley, Knight, and Rice. It took the involvement of 6 different teams (4 the first time, 5 the second time) and 2 trade scenarios (both of which landmarked the largest trades in NBA History just to make it happen. It's not like the Knicks really would have had much of a choice in the Ewing trade. They were going to collect burdenss regardless. Baker didn't work out because Detroit backed out (and even he later suffered from alcholism that debately may have been avoided if he went to NY), Rice developed Plantar Facilititis, Longley retired like 20 games in (leaving the Knicks with Felton Spencer when Camby got injured AGAIN), and Knight was a hustling backup PF on a team loaded at the position.

I have only heard people criticize the Ewing trade, rather than draw up another trade scenario (like I did with K-Mart/Sheed for McDyess). Usually the "drawn up scenario" is "The Knicks shouldn't have traded Ewing". Well, duh, but the GM wasn't the one who got to make that decision.

Then people say they shouldn't have gotten Eisley/Anderson (usually forgetting that Rice's career was practically over). Well, who else could they have gotten in a trade for Rice? He had 3 years on his contract and was clearly about to enter a steep decline. It's not like Anderson/Eisley didn't contribute along the way, as something is better than nothing (unless of course you wanted to see Larry Robinson as the backup SG). Most people here would probably have you believe that Jamison Brewer is an upgrade over Howard Eisley. The main gripe people had with them is their contracts (which were NOT given to them by Layden) and as someone else stated, should be irrelevant since the Knicks were/are in cap hell.

The Knicks were going to miss the playoffs regardless of who they got in the Ewing/Rice trade once Camby went down, and most people forget (scratch that, "refuse to acknowledge" would be a better term) that the 03-04 team only won 2 more games than the 02-03 team.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

layden gave chaney the extension for some odd reason..and there is NO way anyone who had serious knee injuries should play 40+ minutes in the very first exhibition game..and you are totally correct an injury can come out of nowhere,but please.a little coomon sense on behalf of a coach is in order..NOBODY plays 40+ minutes in preseason,let alone coming off major surgery.The chances of injury go up exponentially when a player is fatigued as one is not able to fully engage the stabalisers and supporting muscles...

Chaney was out of his mind for that

QUOTE]It's also Houston's fault for trying to play through the injury. He wanted to play, and he acknowledged that in previous articles saying that he shouldn't have tried to play through injuries like he did in the past (because the fans are ungrateful to that). If you remember (which I doubt you do, he of the 90 day limited warranty memory[/QUOTE] 

Every athlete wants to play,its the trainers and coaches responsibilty to moderate them...

And please dont compare a wrist injury to a knee injury..One is non weight bearing and subject to much less stress

The Knick pick this year was not lottery,and i thought their future pick was conditional.Its their option over a predetermined period.Are you saying it isnt??

And Denver gave up 3 first round picks,and i think one of them was not their own,which is good for the nets..



> 1. Lampe is a big man.


 ..so is Sundov,whats your point??..So,you also liked Sam Bowie over Michel Jordan..smart



> 2. At age 18 (now 19) Lampe is quite possibly a better shooter than Ariza will EVER be at any point in his career.


Steve Kerr is a better shooter than MJ,TMAC and Kobe..what your point?



> 3. Lampe is only 4 months older than Ariza but is now
> entering his second pro year.


And that is relevant because??????????????????



> 3. Ariza is undersized for SF and can't shoot enough to play SG.


Have you ever watched basketball in your life,let alone watch Ariza??Hes 6'7" to 6'8",19 ,a 40 inch vertical and is probably close to te leading rebounder in preseason...Ariza is close to Sweetney in height if not taller,and not much shoerter than KT...And hes taller than Spree..Do yourself a favor..Turn the computer off and watch him play



> 4. The Knicks need players that weigh 275 pounds, not 200.


Oh good..Oliver Miller,Staley Roberts.,Jake Tsakalidis....Who needs TMAC,Kobe,Kmart,Artest,KG..Rashidi,have you lost your mind???????????


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> layden gave chaney the extension for some odd reason.


Because you can't have a coach in a lame duck situation in NY, or the media will eat it alive. 

<quote>and there is NO way anyone who had serious knee injuries should play 40+ minutes in the very first exhibition game.</quote>

It wasn't the first exhibition game genius, it was game 5 or 6. He was playing like the 20/10 force in the games prior to that.



> and you are totally correct an injury can come out of nowhere,but please.a little coomon sense on behalf of a coach is in order..NOBODY plays 40+ minutes in preseason,let alone coming off major surgery.


He didn't play 40 minutes. It was over 30, but not 40.

Crawford has played 36 minutes twice this preseason. You know why? Because the team needs to see what he can give, and to get him involved and aquainted with the plays. Same with McDyess.



> The chances of injury go up exponentially when a player is fatigued as one is not able to fully engage the stabalisers and supporting muscles...


It was garbage time in a preseason game, which are hardly grueling efforts.

You know when else the chances of injury go up?
A regular season game.

You know when else?
Contact practice.

You're acting like it was the 35th minute on the court that did him in. That ******* Chaney. If only he had played him 34 minutes, then the injury never would have occured. 

Like it wouldn't have carried over to the next day. As long as he never played 40 minutes, it never would have caved? Give me a break.



> And please dont compare a wrist injury to a knee injury..One is non weight bearing and subject to much less stress





> ..so is Sundov,whats your point??..So,you also liked Sam Bowie over Michel Jordan..smart


Wtf? What a wonderful analogy. <b>Jordan wasn't a second round pick. He was picked 40 picks ahead of Ariza, in a deep draft</b> Portland also happened to have a guy named Clyde Drexler at SG. They needed a center and missed out on Olajuwon.



> Steve Kerr is a better shooter than MJ,TMAC and Kobe..what your point?


What is yours? Another "thought" provoking analogy. Hubert Davis is a better shooter than Lampe, maybe the Suns should plead with the Mavs to let him out of retirement so he can take Lampe's roster spot.



> And that is relevant because??????????????????


He was younger when he was drafted. Teams got to develop him sooner. Durr.



> Have you ever watched basketball in your life,let alone watch Ariza??Hes 6'7" to 6'8",19 ,a 40 inch vertical and is probably close to te leading rebounder in preseason...Ariza is close to Sweetney in height if not taller,and not much shoerter than KT...And hes taller than Spree..Do yourself a favor..Turn the computer off and watch him play


I'm talking about his weight, genius.



> Oh good..Oliver Miller,Staley Roberts.,Jake Tsakalidis....Who needs TMAC,Kobe,Kmart,Artest,KG..Rashidi,have you lost your mind???????????


Another brilliant analogy. I might as well compare Shaq to Bo Kimble in response. Unless of course, you're saying Ariza is going to be a top 5 all-time SG, and that they weren't lottery picks.

Speaking of Artest, he plays Ariza's position and outweighs Ariza by about 40 pounds.

And yeah, the Knicks could use Tsakalidids more than Trevor Ariza. Why do you ask?.

What do Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Ron Artest, Kenyon Martin, and Kevin Garnett have to do with Trevor Ariza?

What do Stanley Roberts, Oliver Miller, Jake Tsakalidis, and Bruno Sundov have to do with Maciej Lampe?

And you called me a Master of Evasion.... I should be flattered.


Regarding the preseason

McDyess btw is 16-22 (.727) this preseason. 
Lampe is 10-22 (.455)
Crawford is 20-57 (.351)
Ariza is 15-43 (.349). 

The few shots that Ariza has hit have been layups and dunks. Man, this guy is Jordan in the making.
Ok I was joking. 
Maybe only a Drexler in the making.

And what's with the Sundov comparison? Don't you know the players on your own team? Sundov is nothing like Lampe. Sundov came into the league at 7'2 and 220 pounds. But hey, 7'2, he definitely wasn't undersized for center. He's currently 260 pounds, which is still 15 pounds less than Lampe (despite 3 more inches of height). There is no question which player has more bulk, nor is there any question which player is better, and which player will be better 5 years down the line.

And wtf? One of the leaders in rebounding? Ariza's 44th, at a time when NBA regulars aren't getting regular minutes, and scrubs are clanking shots left and right. OMGz Yao Ming is averaging 6.8, so I guess Ariza would average 8 during regular season if he started. Which means Dwight Howard would average like 11. Ooh, and Keith McLeod averaging more assists than Lebron James, signals big things for his future. And LiEk oMg, Loren Woods is leading the preseason in blocks, what was Isiah thinking when he decided to target Erick Dampier in the offseason? Man we really let him get away.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> It was garbage time in a preseason game, which are hardly grueling efforts.


So you keep your "future" on the floor in garbage time after a serious knee injury after playing 40 minutes??



> Crawford has played 36 minutes twice this preseason. You know why? Because the team needs to see what he can give, and to get him involved and aquainted with the plays. Same with McDyess.


Once again,McDyss was coming off of a MAJOR knee injury..you dont play the guy 35+ minutes...You bring him along slowly..Hey,you,Layden and Chaney obviously know best...Dyss even said he came back too soon...

BTW,you are losing the one marble you had left..

I didnt write this ..you did..

1. Lampe is a big man.
2. At age 18 (now 19) Lampe is quite possibly a better shooter than Ariza will EVER be at any point in his career.
3. Lampe is only 4 months older than Ariza but is now entering his second pro year.
3. Ariza is undersized for SF and can't shoot enough to play SG.
4. The Knicks need players that weigh 275 pounds, not 200.

And now you are arguing with yourself....

Lampe is a big man,who has small foward offensive skills without any quickness or defensive ability..Why bring up that he is BIG??He is No center, hes barely a power foward..Who gives a #$%^ if hes big????What is your point??Big=better??

Granted Lampe is a better shooter than Ariza..But what does that have to do with anything??Ariza is a far better athlete,and far better defensively..Great,lampe is a 6'11 inch guy who can stick the 19 footer but couldnt stick with his shadow if his life depended on it..

That is such a good point that Lampe is in his second year..Great,if he gets off the bench he can qualify for the sophmore team.......

Ariza is 19 and weighs 200 pounds and rebounds well already..How much do you think Artest weighed at St Johns as a soph??What do you think MJ weighed??

We need guys who weigh 275????

You might want to qualofy that or just give Vince Mcmahon a call....

Face it Rashidi..Layden is NEVER coming back no matter what..McDyss wrecked his Knee in GARBAGE time,you keep on defending that....Shandone had every opporunity to shine in the playoffs and was horrific..Keep on defending him..Eisly is gonna be cut by Phoenix...Keep on believinbg he was a great aquisition..Ariza has exceeded everyones expectations...You keep on believing he is Shandone in the making...

Its a pleasure doing business with you..



USE YOUR NOODLE


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Not to mention that it didn't take Isiah long to know NOT to trust Knicks Drs. That's why he hired the woman who did Vin's heart surgery to oversee them.

And Van Gundy did hand pick Chaney... to be his assistant coach. I believe he "hand picked" several others over the years too. But notice LA went and hired Rudy T, they didn't keep re-signing Phil's Tex Winters to extensions.

And Rashisi you make it sound like Layden had the infinite wisdom to favor bigmen over small. That's why he traded Ewing for Rice, a SG, when we already had Spree and Houston?

And sure it would have been nice to have Dyess in all-star form, but 1) the likelihood of that was uncertain after his first knee injury 2) we still gave up two solid bigs we'd love to have now (both of whom can play center) in Camby and Nene (#7 lottery pick that could have also netted us Wilcox or Amare) to get him. That's a tough call to make when you don't even have a legitimate backup center at the time. Hmm, Camby+Amare or a broken McDyess??? "Well since I'm Layden and I prefer my bigmen short or injured I've got to go with McDyess. Why would I want a center anyway?"


It also strikes me a s a little reckless to let Luc Longley and Larry Johnson retire early with injuries and not file for injury trade exceptions. How many bigs can we afford to toss or lose in short time without trying to get something to replace them -- unless you consider Spoon a serviceable center(?) which you probably do. 

Instead we were left to fend with 6'9 KT with his 2" vertical as starting center. He did a good job too, but I remember you saying he was overpaid at 5M. meanwhile the non bigs you'll defend to your death (Eisley and Shandon) were each making more money than that for whatever scrub roles they played on the short end of the court.

Jeesh, to say Layden put more emphasis on the frontcourt is like saying Isiah favors tall point guards.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Lampe is a big man,who has small foward offensive skills without any quickness or defensive ability..


Wait for him to develop it. It'll happen before Ariza ever becomes a good shooter.



> Once again,McDyss was coming off of a MAJOR knee injury..you dont play the guy 35+ minutes...You bring him along


The guy said he was healthy. The docs said he was healthy. He looked healthy. You're trying to find out what he has. Can you even verify that it was even the first time he played 30+ minutes in the preseason?



> What is your point??Big=better??


Last I checked, the Knicks need size, not another swingman. Last I checked, big men with versatile offensive games are worth more than swingmen that can't shoot. I'll take Raef LaFrentz over Stacey Augmon any day.




> And Van Gundy did hand pick Chaney... to be his assistant coach. I believe he "hand picked" several others over the years too. But notice LA went and hired Rudy T, they didn't keep re-signing Phil's Tex Winters to extensions.


Tex was an extension of Phil. Phil also said he didn't want to coach Kobe. Kobe also doesn't want to do the triangle. They wanted Phil and all associated with him gone.

Van Gundy QUIT. Midseason. Not even midseason. 19 games in. Without warning. There's a difference between the situations, a big one. Cheaney could have left with him, but stayed on. That's why he was given the chance to coach the next season, to repay his loyalty in a dire situation, and give him a chance to run his own training camp. The Knicks' 4th and 5th best players were Howard Eisley and Shandon Anderson (while 6th to 9th were manned by Spoon, Harrington, Ward, and Doleac), yet somehow they won only 2 fewer games than last years team, and had enough wins that they would have made the playoffs last year. Considering how people here say Anderson/Eisley (as well as the others mentioned above) are lucky to even be in the league, I'd say that's not a bad job.

And perhaps you are forgetting, what coach was available? This was before the mass wave of coach firings (and most of those guys all found new jobs anyway). The best coach on the market was Van Gundy. Who was second? Well?



> That's why he traded Ewing for Rice, a SG, when we already had Spree and Houston?


Baker (the guy he really wanted), and Longley must have been chopped liver. And like I said before, come up with a trade scenario involving someone other than Rice.



> And sure it would have been nice to have Dyess in all-star form, but 1) the likelihood of that was uncertain after his first knee injury 2) we still gave up two solid bigs we'd love to have now (both of whom can play center) in Camby and Nene (#7 lottery pick that could have also netted us Wilcox or Amare) to get him. That's a tough call to make when you don't even have a legitimate backup center at the time. Hmm, Camby+Amare or a broken McDyess??? "Well since I'm Layden and I prefer my bigmen short or injured I've got to go with McDyess. Why would I want a center anyway?"


You didn't mention any centers. And calling Camby a "solid" big is laughable, there's a reason he brought in McDyess. One injury prone big man for another. McDyess was a 20/10 guy, whereas Camby was an 11/10 guy. Did he finally have a healthy season? Yep. Was it any surprise it was in his contract year? Nope. Whatever the length of his contract is, it's a sizeable risk by Denver. I have two theories on why Camby was healthy last season, only one of them my own.

1. Camby was BORED in Denver. He stayed at home at night. He didn't go out partying like he did in NY, he got more rest, and thus didn't break down every 20 games.

2. He no longer plays with reckless abandon. He's a finesse player now. Fewer dunks, more jumpers.

But seriously, what's up with calling McDyess short? Not a center? I guess you'd rather take Jeff Foster over a 20/10 guy like Jermaine O'Neal? The Knicks don't have a dominant big man at PF or C. They didn't 3 years ago, and they don't now. I'll take a front court of Thomas/McDyess over Jermaine/Foster. I can't say the same about Sweetney/Thomas, or any other combination of Knick big men.



> It also strikes me a s a little reckless to let Luc Longley and Larry Johnson retire early with injuries and not file for injury trade exceptions. How many bigs can we afford to toss or lose in short time without trying to get something to replace them -- unless you consider Spoon a serviceable center(?) which you probably do.


Perhaps you can name a serviceable center, the league was quite short on them at this point in time.

Spoon replaced Johnson, as insiders figured he'd call it quits before the season started.



> He did a good job too, but I remember you saying he was overpaid at 5M.


Huh? You're gonna have to quote me on this one. Jason Collins is commanding 6 million a year. 5 million is Kurt's fair market value.



> meanwhile the non bigs you'll defend to your death (Eisley and Shandon)


Only because everyone else thinks they deserve the death penalty. I have always said that Ward is better than Eisley (and that's why Ward played the 4th quarter), yet this always seems to go unnoticed, as it seems that if you don't hate Layden and every single thing about him you are branded a non-fan.



> Jeesh, to say Layden put more emphasis on the frontcourt is like saying Isiah favors tall point guards.


The Knicks added more big men in the Layden era than they ever did guards. What guards came in during the Layden era? Mark Jackson, Howard Eisley, and Frank Williams (and Shandon Anderson if you don't consider him a SF, which he mostly played since Spree was playing 2 when Houston wasn't in). Spoon, Harrington, Longley, Knight, McDyess, Doleac, Sweetney, Lampe, Vranes, Van Horn, and Mutombo account for all his sizable acquisitions. Isiah has shuffled that size around. Spoon for a PG. McDyess, Lampe, and 3 PGs for a PG. Mutombo, Harrington, and a PG, for PF and a PG. Van Horn was traded for a "smaller" version. The only time the team gained size was when he signed Sundov for 10 days, and Baker.

The Knicks may not have the glut that they had last year, but they haven't improved the situation either.
Would you have me believe that Thomas/Sweetney/Baker/Nazr/Williams/Sundov is any better than Thomas/Mutombo/Spoon/Harrington/Sweetney/Lampe?

The only thing I see is Isiah brought in two star PGs to replace the two star SGs.

In something else thats gone unnoticed, Spoon was traded for another untradable guy in Moochie Norris. Jerome Williams isn't that much different from Spoon, and has what, 5 years on his contract or something? I'm too lazy to check. What exactly was the point of trading Spoon for a worthless player if we were just going to replace him?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

ugggghhhh...Jerome williams was FILLER to make the trade work for JC...you constantly bring that up..You act like ZEKE had a meeting with Dolan..

Zeke: James,if you want to get back to the glory days,we need to shore up the power foward and 3/4..

Dolan: Didnt that nitwit Layden fix that with Shandone and Spoon??? Who are you thinking??Tmac and Kmart???

Zeke:..Not quite James..But I think I could land Penny and Junk Yard dog...

Dolan: I love nicknames..Great marketing tool....Get to it Zeke

Zeke...One problem,Jim..We may have to take on the contracts of Starbury and JC to make it happen...

Dolan...Zeke,nothing could be worse than Shandone and Eisly..We havent had a great nickname since Earl the Pearl...Sign em


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Rashidi, I don't have time to debate this today, perhaps tonight or tomorrow. But in the meantime just meditate on Layden's four years. Two trips to the lottery within two years of the finals and a 90M payroll with a final season's .350 percentage.

If that's good enough for you who am I to tell you otherwise. Meanwhile no owner would let Layden manage his concession stand, let alone team.

More later...


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Its official..Eisly is on the buyout squad and I am really hoping Latraell Spreewell makes the team..I can not believe what he is up to in Minnesota...



> Swingman Latrell Sprewell said Friday he doesn't plan on rushing back from his ankle injury, and he indicated it wasn't an accident that he missed the team's kickoff luncheon Thursday at the Target Center.


After missing a team luncheon



> When asked if he was trying to prove a point, Sprewell said, "Yeah, you can say that."


And why is Spree up to his old antics??Did saunders decide to start Wally over Spree??Not quite..



> Sprewell is in the last year of a contract that will pay him $14.6 million this season. He is seeking at least a two-year extension, but he's not willing to take a pay cut. It's believed the Wolves are offering more than what Sprewell could get on the free-agent market next summer, but not as much as he would like


I loved Spree as a player,and felt everyone deserves a second chance..He does not get it and worse he never learns..:no:


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

*Long, torturous, but please read. I don't ever want to have to discuss this again.*

Okay, I said I'd be back so I am. This after losing half the reply to a crash and having to do it over. I hope I can stand on this reply for a while and we can put this silly conversation behind us.

First a couple of general observations. 

1) Is it a fair guess that you became a Knicks fan in the 1999 playoffs - the successful season before Layden took over? I can only assume your formative years were watching Layden and you've never had the opportunity to see a good GM in action.

2) You make a lot of illogical comparisons. Comparing the likes of Eisley and Shandon to Hardaway and JYD is ridiculous. Can you not see the difference between the primary component of a trade vs filler? You seem to continuously try to bring isiah down to Layden's level by comparing the best of Layden's acquisitions against the worst of Isiah's. We are not so gullible.

So what's your bottom line on this stuff, that fans vent far too much anger on guys like Shandon and Eisley? Maybe, but who cares? They are players that teams would rather pay $25M to go away so they can replace them with rookies or NBDL players. That's pretty sad. And they represent all that was wrong with Layden: over paying scrubs, disregard for the cap, poor talent evaluation, poor player development, no personnel improvement, etc. Their problem wasn't that they sucked, it was that they were near impossible to to get rid of, as Anderson's resistance to being bought out reiterates each and every day.



> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> The guy said he was healthy. The docs said he was healthy.


Yup, those same docs that Camby wanted to sue. Those same docs who rushed McDyess' rehab the second time around too. Those same docs who Allan Houston would sooner shoot than let near his knee again after they told him all that pain and swelling was normal. "Go ahead Allan, play on it whether there's cartilage in there or not. 

And please don't reply until you've researched the micro-fracture surgery Allan had done. It was designed to replace or stimulate cartilage regeneration, since he had none. You don't just start wearing through fresh cartilage regeneration that is struggling to "take" to the bones -- you give it time, like Kidd is doing, and Webber did before him, as it's really a low probability of success in the first place and something of a last ditch effort to salvage a career.



> Tex was an extension of Phil. Phil also said he didn't want to coach Kobe. Kobe also doesn't want to do the triangle. They wanted Phil and all associated with him gone.


You're just missing the point entirely. Tex Winters will NEVER be a head coach. Not every assistant is meant to be his boss' successor.



> Van Gundy QUIT. Midseason. Not even midseason. 19 games in. Without warning. There's a difference between the situations, a big one. Cheaney could have left with him, but stayed on. That's why he was given the chance to coach the next season, to repay his loyalty in a dire situation, and give him a chance to run his own training camp. The Knicks' 4th and 5th best players were Howard Eisley and Shandon Anderson (while 6th to 9th were manned by Spoon, Harrington, Ward, and Doleac), yet somehow they won only 2 fewer games than last years team, and had enough wins that they would have made the playoffs last year. Considering how people here say Anderson/Eisley (as well as the others mentioned above) are lucky to even be in the league, I'd say that's not a bad job.


I love when people compare '02/03 with '03/04. The only reason they were close is that Isiah salvaged the 03 season going something like 28-24 after Layden's 10-18 start. Layden/Chaney were on track to waste the careers of it's two "saviors" (Dyess and Houston) in a desperate attempt to reach .400. Just enough to miss the playoffs but not get a high draft pick. Brilliant, destroy out your stars frail injury inflicted knees while assuring you can't replace them.

And please, don't tell me about the schedule. Yes the beginning of the season was a tougher run, but it included Allan Houston. A starting 5 of Eisley, Shandon, VH, KT (with funky finger) and Mutombo were NOT going to make a great late season run. They were NOT better than Cleveland and Milwaukee and Miami. That is one of the worst starting 5 in the league.



> And perhaps you are forgetting, what coach was available? This was before the mass wave of coach firings (and most of those guys all found new jobs anyway). The best coach on the market was Van Gundy. Who was second? Well?


Chaney would have been find as the first season fill-in, but for following seasons available coaches included guys like Czar, Hubie, Doug Collins, George karl, not to mention Rick Carlisle, Stan Van Gundy or any number of more capable assistants.

However, Chaney's biggest problem wasn't that he wasn't a good X&O guy, which he wasn't, it was that he was grinding injured vets into the ground on the way to the lottery while letting promising youth fester on the bench.

Do you not get that the Knicks should have been rehabbing and rebuilding and not pretending to be jockeying for some imaginary post season homecourt advantage?





> Baker (the guy he really wanted), and Longley must have been chopped liver. And like I said before, come up with a trade scenario involving someone other than Rice.


You're kidding me, right? Now he gets credit for guys he _wanted_? What a great GM --he wanted Duncan, Webber and Bosh -- his nighttime fantasies make him one of the best GMs ever!!!


But seriously, yes the inclusion of pre-alcoholic all-star Vin would have made it a better deal. But even the final deal could have been better or salvaged. Lets look at the trade closely, there were essentially two parts:

A) He traded Ewing (expiring contract) for an injured Rice ( two or three years left,) and with a might as well have been injured Knight, and two first round draft picks. Fine, it extends an already bad payroll situation, and with Houston and Spree we didn't need a SG, but for arguments sake because of the two picks I'll call that a good trade.

B) He traded Dudley and our 1st rd pick to Phoenix for an injured Longley, (a freshly bum knee AND an arthritic ankle, the same ankle that ended his career later that year). Longley absolutely WAS chopped liver. Layden gave up a functional backup center and a pick for him when he had a known career threatening bum ankle. If I remember correctly we didn't even make him pass the physical. This part of the trade was an unmitigated *disaster*.

Now back to "A", putting aside Rice's health and contract and our abundance at his position, one could justify it for the picks. But Layden turned around and blew them on Jackson and Othella. So in the 2001 draft, had we not wasted our pick on chopped liver Longley, Jackson and Othella, we could have had 3 first rd picks: ours and the two from the trade. That year Randolph, Dalembert, Parker, Tinsley, Arenas, and Okur all went very late. We could have had any three of them. Instead we got a center a few games from retirement, Jackson, and Othella. 

He buried our future right there in his very first season. Look at it like this, he traded Randolph, Dalembert and Arenas for Longley, Jackson and Othella.

Now, regarding the later trade of Rice for Eisley and Shandon. At the time Rice had a year or two left on his contract. Whatever his health he was near to being valuable as an expiring contract. But again Layden shows an utter disregard for the payroll and trades them for two bad 6 year deals. It would be like Isiah deciding we had to get something useful for Penny (with 2 years left on his deal) *now*, and trading him for E-rob + Tariq Abdul-Wahad, each signed to six year deals. Would that be wise and would you go to such lengths to defend Isiah in that scenario?

Also, you seem to think it mitigates blame if Shandon's contract was given to him by the Rockets. First off, I don't agree with that logic, we should be able so see a bad deal whoever inked it. However, that's a moot point, the truth of the matter is that Shandon's contract was extended or re-signed specifically to make the numbers work in the Rice trade:

http://www.geocities.com/clutch34_2000/anderson.htm

Position: Shooting Guard 
College: Georgia
Birthdate: 12/13/73
Height: 6-6
Acquired: Signed by the Rockets as a free agent on September 29, 1999. 
Contract Info: Signed for 3 years at $6.6 million, starting in the 1999-2000 season. Holds option for third year.

See, the Rockets signed him at $2.2M/yr thru 2002/03, but we brought him here in August 2001 signed thru '07. Layden gave him that money, nobody else. And nobody else ever will.

Oh, and Phoenix officially bought out Eisley.



> You didn't mention any centers.


Huh? I mentioned Camby and Nene. Remember Camby? 6'11, played center on 3 teams including NY? The other guys is Nene, also 6'11 weighs 260 (same size as a chap named Duncan) and very strong and athletic. Can easily play center in this league and probably would if Camby weren't on the same team.




> And calling Camby a "solid" big is laughable, there's a reason he brought in McDyess. One injury prone big man for another. McDyess was a 20/10 guy, whereas Camby was an 11/10 guy. Did he finally have a healthy season? Yep. Was it any surprise it was in his contract year? Nope. Whatever the length of his contract is, it's a sizable risk by Denver.


Say what you will about Camby, but after Shaq, Yao and Duncan, Camby is easily in the next five centers below them, if not next three. And if you're gonna challenge that don't go stat crazy on me, show me some published power rankings. FWIW, which isn't much, CBS Sportsline has him at 3rd top center overall.

And your "one injured big for another" is flawed because it wasn't straight up Camby for McDyess, it was Camby PLUS the #7 pick, which yielded either of your choice from Nene, Wilcox, or Amare. That is a far different equation.

Look at it this way, if you asked Denver (even before Kmart) would they trade Camby (9/10) PLUS Nene (12/7) (combined 21/17) for a 20/10 guy like Brand I'm sure you'd get at best a 50/50 split. But if the offer was Camby plus Nene for Brand with a shattered knee with uncertain recovery, that ratio would go WAY down to 15/85 at best, and that is the type of deal we did. We took the 15% end of the trade. And none of this considers salaries, which was far better on the Camby+Nene side of the equation, allowing them to also add Kmart.



> But seriously, what's up with calling McDyess short? Not a center? I guess you'd rather take Jeff Foster over a 20/10 guy like Jermaine O'Neal? The Knicks don't have a dominant big man at PF or C.


No, Dyess is not short, he's a good size at PF. But we traded two 6'11 guys who can play two positions for one injured 6'10 guy who can play one.



> The Knicks added more big men in the Layden era than they ever did guards. What guards came in during the Layden era?


The fact that Layden added some 6'7-6'9 guys doesn't mean he favors a strong frontcourt, it's just in comparison to his inability to add anything of substance to the backcourt. He gave up healthy and/or starters in Ewing, Dudley, Camby and Nene, for injured and/or backups in Spoon, Dyess, Othella, and and Longley. 

Isiah gained Penny, Brewer, and Crawford, all tall at the PG, so therefor he favors tall PGs? See the forest through the trees my friend. Layden traded good frontcourt for bad and it only looks good to you in comparison to the NOTHING he did for the backcourt.



About KT filling in at center, I wrote: "He did a good job too, but I remember you saying he was overpaid at 5M."

You replied: 


> Huh?  You're gonna have to quote me on this one. Jason Collins is commanding 6 million a year. 5 million is Kurt's fair market value.


http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90739&highlight=kurt+overrated 

you write:

"Kurt Thomas flat out sucks, he had an overrated year, and he's done nothing since getting his fat contract extension....

...He is embarassing Kurt Thomas, *which pretty much means that Isiah's first contract extension is going to end up a bad one. I don't see any team taking KT for what he's making, nor do I see him improving any further. Basically the Knicks overpayed for a semi-popular player that peaked*..."



> The only thing I see is Isiah brought in two star PGs to replace the two star SGs.


what are the two stars he's replacing? Houston is one, who's the other, Rice? Well Rice was brought here injured and Houston is now injured, so replacing them seems like a good first order of business. If Layden hadn't have brought in so many injured players (Longley, Rice, Dyess) and burned out Houston's frail knees, Isiah wouldn't have had so many orders of business. 

Oh, now I realize you mean Houston and Spree. Same difference. If Spree hadn't been traded it would have made for one less trade for isiah to make.



> In something else thats gone unnoticed, Spoon was traded for another untradable guy in Moochie Norris. Jerome Williams isn't that much different from Spoon, and has what, 5 years on his contract or something? I'm too lazy to check. What exactly was the point of trading Spoon for a worthless player if we were just going to replace him?


I don't know that it's gone unnoticed, it's just that Isiah's goofs haven't been anywhere near as costly as Layden's. As I understand it Isiah had indication he might be able to involve moochie in a deal for Miles, perhaps before Cleveland picked up McGinnis. Spoon for Miles would have been great. It didn't work out, but big deal, he traded one unmovable contract for another of the same length (or there about). Why even bring it up, do you see it as affecting this team one iota?

Okay, let me try to tie some things together. You seem to like to compare Layden to Isiah, so lets have a look:

1) It's funny that you are so comfortable comparing Layden to Isiah. Do you realize that's because Isiah has accomplished more positives in 8 months than Layden did 4 years?

2) You keep trying to compare Eisley and Shandon to Penny and JYD. The difference is Penny & JYD came as filler for better players while Shandon and Eisley were the main players to their deals.

3) Layden didn't pull off too many trades and three of his most significant acquisitions came broken (Longley, Rice, McDyess). The only injured pickup of Isiah's was Penny and a) he was just filler b) he's reputedly pain free now.

4) Lets look at players lost and gained by each GM:

Significant players lost under Layden: Camby, Nene, Spree, LJ, Ewing. (very high calibre players)

Gained: Rice, Longley, Dice, (all acquired with career threatening injuries) Knight, Shandon, Eisley, (all bad players with horrible contracts) Spoon, KVH, Othella, Mutombo, Lampe.

(Fwill and Sweetney shouldn't count -- lottery picks aren't fair comparison to a playoff team) 

Significant players lost under Isiah: Dyess (injured) Ward, Doleac, KVH, Mutombo, Othella, Spoon, Fwill, Trybanski.

gained: Marbury, Penny, TT , Nazr, Crawford, Baker, Ariza (de facto sweetney as he'd not be half what he is now under Chaney/Layden)

Layden lost premium players and replaced them with damaged goods or players of little substance. In half a season Isiah has brought in players of the calibre that Layden's predecessor (Grunfeld) also accomplished, and as a group they are far superior to what Layden accomplished in four years. Layden lost ground for the team while Isiah gained. That's obvious to all but the blind scouts and the win-loss records bear this out.

Let's imagine the best of Isiah's "gained" team playing 5 on 5 against the best of Layden's gained team:

Layden's Laydowns:
Eisley, Shandon, KVH, Dyess, Doleac

vs

Isiah's Angels:
Marbury, Crawford, TT, Baker-Sweeteny-TT, Nazr

Which team would you put your money on? I'd go with Isiah's without hesitation. But if you want to tell me that *IF* McDyess comes back as half the player he was it's a close call...fine, I'll play along with that... but I see it as significant that Isiah is close or better in 1/2 season of work vs Layden's 4. Is it also relevant that as unrestricted FAs there's no guarantees we'd have been able to resign Dyess and Doleac anyway. In that case substitute Spoon and Mutombo.


Now as I alluded to above, Grunfeld also did a good job, he brought in guys like: Starks, Mason, Rivers, Harper, Xman, Spree, Camby, Houston (cheap then). Did Layden bring in guys of that calibre? Yes, if they were broken or if he could make a parallel trade like Spree for VH, but in no instance did he actually better a position in his 4 years. 

This is in Grunfeld Knicks Bio:

" During Grunfeld’s reign as the Knicks top personnel executive, New York advanced to at least the Conference Semifinals of the NBA Playoffs each season. His tenure included five 50-plus win seasons, three Atlantic Division Championships and two trips to the NBA Finals in 1994 and 1999. In eight seasons as general manager or vice-president of player personnel, his Knicks teams had a record of 397-227 (.636) and a 61-44 record in the playoffs. 

Grunfeld was named the Knicks director of administration in 1990-91 and was quickly promoted to vice-president of player personnel on April 23, 1991. After two seasons, he was named vice president and general manager on July 21, 1993. He was promoted to president and general manager of the Knicks on February 23, 1996."

See, this is what good GM's do. Nothing like this will ever be written about Laydown.

These are the kinds of paper trails left by Layden as seen in recent news:

"Anderson has been virtually untradeable since former Knicks president *Scott Layden paid him $42 million over six years to make the numbers work in the 2001 trade that sent Glen Rice to Houston. Rice had been overpaid the previous year when Layden acquired him as part of the deal that sent Patrick Ewing to Seattle.*

Those chickens have come home to roost, and Thomas has inherited them. Several teams are waiting to see if they can dump salary to the Knicks if Thomas is in a hurry to get rid of Anderson, whose value will go up when he enters the final season of his deal two years from now.

Unless Thomas is willing to wait that long, he either has to give the golden egg to Anderson in a buyout or hope the Knicks can get by with what amounts to an 11-man active roster, assuming they remain determined not to play Anderson. " 

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baske...523oct28,0,4334711.story?coll=ny-knicks-print 

Now being a GM is more than just making trades. Layden not only did a bad job in that department but he was also atrocious at player development and he had no relationship to the fans of this city. In contrast we see this kind of thing from Isiah: 

Isiah's code tailor made. 

Portions: 

_ Isiah Thomas has installed stricter dress codes for players, practice uniforms for coaches and has even changed the way the players stand during the national anthem. 

"Two things taught to me: You play as you live, and [if] you dress sloppy, you play sloppy" Thomas told The Post before last night's 89-83 preseason finale win over the Jazz at the Garden. "The little things make the difference between success and failure." 

in the latest behind-the-scenes move, the Knicks president has decreed all morning shootarounds on game days be staged at the Garden instead of the club's Westchester campus.

* The break from tradition is more than just Thomas' desire to achieve a stronger homecourt advantage. He also wants the players to know the city better.* Only three live in Manhattan: Penny Hardaway, Kurt Thomas and Tim Thomas. The Westchester residents are afforded hotel rooms during the day with a chance to explore Manhattan.


Last season, Thomas mandated jackets and ties be worn to games. This season, Thomas went further, requiring jackets and ties on all charter flights, even if leaving from the practice facility.

"Everytime we get off a plane or bus, we represent New York," Thomas added. "Even if you're checking into a hotel late at night, the people at the front desk, they see the Knicks walk in. We can't walk in looking like a bunch of guys wearing sweatclothes. When you're on Knick time, you're working."

* It's a far cry from the old regime. Former GM Scott Layden attended practice in shorts and slippers.*

Thomas said he has encouraged them to ride the subway, walk around and try out restaurants to get a feel for the hustle and bustle of the world's greatest city. 

*"We got to make a connection to the city," Thomas said. "We've got to give the team back to the city." *

Thomas, hired on Dec. 23, didn't understand New York until summer when he rode the subway. 

"What makes this city so special, no matter who you are, when you're on the train, the guy next to you could be making $5 million or $15,000 or be homeless. But everyone's on the same train. . . . That's finally when I really got what this city is really about. Money doesn't matter. . . . Our players need to feel and see that." _

Isiah is demonstrating himself to be a rather complex GM who knows how to endear himself to the city. Will it allow him to get away with some blunders that Layden got roasted for? Sure, but once you stop your microanalysis and justifications for all of Layden's moves you'll see he's really demonized because he had no successes to offset his failures. He simply had four years of failure with no redeeming qualities to protect him.

So, quick summary of a long post: 

1) Layden brought in nothing but injured or ineffective players, with the exception of Van Horn, but in giving up spree in the process it was largely a parallel move. His best move was a parallel move.

2) Layden's players and their style of play had little relationship to this city and that went for him too.

3) The way Layden tried to grind wins out of frail players like Houston and McDyess was damaging to our long term prospects and theirs and we still had losing record in the process.

4) Layden was brought here because of a reputation for being a good draft talent evaluator but then traded away three 1st round picks in his first year. Picks that could have netted us very substantial players, like Randolph, Dalembert and Arenas.

5) He traded away 4 pretty good centers of 6'11 or taller. The youngest two make up one of the better frontcourt tandems in the league today, while center remains our position of greatest need today.

6) Under Layden the reputation and magnetism of the entire franchise was being eradicated. Under Grunfeld the Knicks were a respected franchise that fans, players and coaches wanted to be a part of. Layden wasted a lot of that respect and the Garden became a destination to avoid (oxymoron). Isiah may overhype it but there is truth to his statements that the quality fans, players and coaches again want to be a part of the organization.

7) I'm tired, you fill in the blanks, I'm sure there are still many more...

8) ...Like overpaying Houston dramatically. And If you say "Dolan" one more time without any supporting evidence, or even a viable theory, I'm gonna shoot you!

We Knicks fans had a good GM in Grunfeld, we expect that much from all our GMs. Now it appears Isiah will be a good GM too, maybe even a special one, and that pleases many of us. Layden was a *BAD* GM, and most of us are glad his reign is over. It will take a while to undo the harm he did to the payroll, to the health of some players, to our clogged bench of unmovable contracts, to the reputation of the franchise, etc, but so far Isiah has done a good job on all those fronts in a short time. That's good enough for me right now. How about you?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Nice post..I hope this uts an end to the saga..but i am sure the caped crusader,"AntiZeke" will return:devil:


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> 1) Is it a fair guess that you became a Knicks fan in the 1999 playoffs - the successful season before Layden took over? I can only assume your formative years were watching Layden and you've never had the opportunity to see a good GM in action.


1994.



> You make a lot of illogical comparisons. Comparing the likes of Eisley and Shandon to Hardaway and JYD is ridiculous. Can you not see the difference between the primary component of a trade vs filler?


Silly me, I hadn't realized how significantly better Penny and JYD are, and how they are non-filler.

Unless of course you mean that Penny/JYD were filler in the trades that brought over a main player. Let's go over what was traded for these players.

Anderson/Eisley: 1 damaged player

JYD: 4 players (all with expiring contracts)

Penny: A lot more than 1 damaged player

Perhaps if the Knicks had traded Sprewell and Rice for Anderson and Eisley, your complaint would hold ground. Anderson/Eisley was a 2 for 1 deal (more like 2 for half). If Rice had value, then maybe they would have brought in a Cuttino Mobley, but he didn't.



> Yup, those same docs that Camby wanted to sue. Those same docs who rushed McDyess' rehab the second time around too. Those same docs who Allan Houston would sooner shoot than let near his knee again after they told him all that pain and swelling was normal. "Go ahead Allan, play on it whether there's cartilage in there or not.


Those same docs have been with the club for more than 5 years.



> I love when people compare '02/03 with '03/04. The only reason they were close is that Isiah salvaged the 03 season going something like 28-24 after Layden's 10-18 start.


And I maintained the entire year that the Knicks had the toughest early season schedule in the league. They played the best of the west early. The Pre-Marbury Knicks had more quality wins than the Marbury Knicks. Who did the Marbury Knicks beat, the Pacers at home, and Jersey without their best 2 players (before getting killed by 25 by that team a few nights later)?



> And please, don't tell me about the schedule. Yes the beginning of the season was a tougher run, but it included Allan Houston.


And it DIDN'T include Marbury.



> You're just missing the point entirely. Tex Winters will NEVER be a head coach. Not every assistant is meant to be his boss' successor.


Chaney was Coach of the Year. That's HEAD coach of the year, not assistant. And like I said, what head coach was available?



> Hubie, Doug Collins, George karl, not to mention Rick Carlisle, Stan Van Gundy or any number of more capable assistants.


Stan was locked in as Riley's heir.
Karl is on TV, and I don't think he's any better than Chaney. Hewas also coaching Milwuakee back then.
Hubie is coaching Memphis because he's friends with Jerry West.
Collins is on TV, and he was still coaching the Wizards back then.
Carlisle was Coach of the Year in 2001. He wasn't avaiable, he was coaching the Pistons when JVG was still here. Further, when he lost his job to Larry Brown, it was well known he was going back to Indiana to take over the biggest underachieving team in the league (led by Isiah). Why? Because he was Larry Bird's top assistant in Indiana, and Bird was justifiably pissed when Isiah got the head coaching job over Rick. Don Chaney could have dropped dead and Carlisle still wouldn't be going to NY.



> You're kidding me, right? Now he gets credit for guys he wanted? What a great GM --he wanted Duncan, Webber and Bosh -- his nighttime fantasies make him one of the best GMs ever!!!


Uh, no. It's a reference to the trade that fell apart when Dumars got cold feet in the 11th hour.



> See, the Rockets signed him at $2.2M/yr thru 2002/03, but we brought him here in August 2001 signed thru '07. Layden gave him that money, nobody else. And nobody else ever will.


How else were they going to make it work under the CBA? They needed to get within 10% of Rice's contract. Jamal Crawford had his contract value dictated by sign and trade. He wanted more money but had to take less because the Bulls didn't want to take on any other players than what they were taking on. It works both ways.



> Look at it this way, if you asked Denver (even before Kmart) would they trade Camby (9/10) PLUS Nene (12/7) (combined 21/17) for a 20/10 guy like Brand I'm sure you'd get at best a 50/50 split. But if the offer was Camby plus Nene for Brand with a shattered knee with uncertain recovery, that ratio would go WAY down to 15/85 at best, that isand the type of deal we did. We took the 15% end of the trade.


Nene was 10/6 on a 17 win team, but regardless, quality over quantity. The Knicks had lots of guys that could put up similar to 12/7 or 9/10 in 30 minutes. 20/10 from one player is always more valuable. By your logic the Lakers got the better end of the Shaq deal.



> And none of this considers salaries, which was far better on the Camby+Nene side of the equation, allowing them to also add Kmart.


Huh? McDyess contract expired this summer, just like Camby's (although Camby was an opt out if I'm not mistaken. How did Camby/Nene allow them to get K-Mart?



> He gave up healthy and/or starters in Ewing, Dudley, Camby and Nene,


Ewing wanted out, and he was a shell of his former self anyway. Ewing was averaging 6/4 in his final year, while even Othella was averaging more than that. Dudley is by far the worst player you mentioned, I would hope there isn't anyone who thinks he is better than Spoon/Othella/1-legged-Dyess.

That's all I have time for right now.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Oh brother. I give you far more credit than you deserve. 

Anyway, I've already made the case sufficiently, no sense doing it over and over again. Someday maybe you'll have an "Aha!" moment and it'll make sense for you, god willing.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

LOL..this will never be settled....the guy is relentless:sigh:


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