# L.Odom or K.Martin



## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

Who would u rather have between those 2.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

id rather have odom. I know people will disagree, but I think he is better all around. Their are only 3 players in the nba top 40 in all points, rebounds, and assits, KG, Pierce, and Odom. Thats all star company. Martin relies to much on fastbreaks with Kidd and his athleticism.


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## AL9045 (Nov 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> id rather have odom. I know people will disagree, but I think he is better all around. Their are only 3 players in the nba top 40 in all points, rebounds, and assits, KG, Perice, and Odom. Thats all star company. Martin relies to much on fastbreaks with Kidd and his athleticism.


Yeah, but he's ranked 35 in points and 37 in assists. I don't really think that means much, to me anyways.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Odom quite easily IMO. 

Martin benefits from playing with Kidd. Martin is more of a hustle energy player whos more athletic than Odom. Has a better post game, and is a better shotblocker although neither are very good at shotblocking. 

But...Odom is the better passer, equal rebounder, better ball handler, shooter, pretty much everything when it comes to actual bball skills. 

Martin is averaging 17.6 points, 9.7 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 1.29 blocks 

Odom is averaging 16.9 points, 9.7 rebounds, 4.1 assists, .81 blocks

I think very highly of Odom though, I think he could be a top 10 player if he had the focus. Neither of these players are that strong mentally though.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> Martin relies to much on fastbreaks with Kidd and his athleticism.


Thats not true at all. The vast vast majority of Martins point come from him making his own shot. It really kills me how everyone thinks Kidd scores Martins points for him.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

I take Martin without even having to think about it.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

So basically, Odom and Martin are equal right now as far as their performance and stats. BUT my point is that Martin is playing at the top of his game because he has Kidd, and Odom still has a ton of potential to fill. Yet they are still equal.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

The Nets have more options then the Heat right now, which attribute to Odom's higher numbers right?

-Petey


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> So basically, Odom and Martin are equal right now as far as their performance and stats. BUT my point is that Martin is playing at the top of his game because he has Kidd, and Odom still has a ton of potential to fill. Yet they are still equal.


They may be equal, until you look at each's D. Kenyon is such a better defender than Odom there is no point even arguing it.

Dont get me mistaken, I like Odom's game, but as to this question, I take Martin with ease.


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## Vinsanity (May 28, 2002)

Odom, he can play SG, SF, PF


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> They may be equal, until you look at each's D. Kenyon is such a better defender than Odom there is no point even arguing it.
> 
> Dont get me mistaken, I like Odom's game, but as to this question, I take Martin with ease.


You're right about the defense. Martin is a much better defender because of his intensity and athleticism. 

I still think Odoms offensive skills are much much better than Martins.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

also with rebounding, Odom was at sf the first 15 or so games of the season. Since he made the move to pf, he has been averaging well more than 10.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> The Nets have more options then the Heat right now, which attribute to Odom's higher numbers right?
> 
> -Petey


not really. The heat have had all 5 starters go for double figures in many games as of late. Odom, Wade, Caron, Jones, Haslem, and Grant all share the wealth.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> The Nets have more options then the Heat right now, which attribute to Odom's higher numbers right?
> 
> -Petey


Thats a common misconception I think. Especially when you're the 2nd leading scorer on a team where the best player is leading the league in assists.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

look at the head to head matchup in the last game

Odom 12 points 18 rebounds 6 assists 1 steal 1 block
Martin 16 points 8 rebounds 0 assists 3 steals 0 blocks 

who won that one


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

Im not sure of the offense the Heat play, but Im psoitive about the Nets team offense. Put Kenyon on a team where he is the #1 option and it isnt really a team O, he could easily put up 25 IMO.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> look at the head to head matchup in the last game
> 
> Odom 12 points 18 rebounds 6 assists 1 steal 1 block
> ...


Well then Jason Collins must be better than Yao Ming, right?:uhoh:


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## AL9045 (Nov 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> Well then Jason Collins must be better than Yao Ming, right?:uhoh:


Haha.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Thats a common misconception I think. Especially when you're the 2nd leading scorer on a team where the best player is leading the league in assists.


Well have you ever watched a Nets game? They distrubute the ball, and work off each other. They have run 3 years straight now without a 20 ppg scorer. And that being said, even though Kidd leads the league in assists you think half of those 10 are to KMart or there is some equal distrution among the team?

-Petey


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> Well then Jason Collins must be better than Yao Ming, right?:uhoh:


well head to head meetings is a way to tell who is better...facing eachtoher is way way of determining it


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> Well then Jason Collins must be better than Yao Ming, right?:uhoh:


terrible comparison because their stats arent similar. If Martins stats were wayyyyy better than Odoms, then you'd have a point. 

Odoms stats are better than Martins though, AND he outplayed him head to head. Yet people still claim Martin is the better player in a "no brainer"


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> not really. The heat have had all 5 starters go for double figures in many games as of late. Odom, Wade, Caron, Jones, Haslem, and Grant all share the wealth.


*As of late?* Ok, well Kidd, Kittles, RJ and KMart have been doing it for 2 years. When they had Todd and KVH they ran it up for 6 guys often.

-Petey


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> Well have you ever watched a Nets game? They distrubute the ball, and work off each other. They have run 3 years straight now without a 20 ppg scorer. And that being said, even though Kidd leads the league in assists you think half of those 10 are to KMart or there is some equal distrution among the team?
> 
> -Petey


I have watched plenty of Nets games. Martins points usually come off either fast breaks, rebounds, that little post move where he faces up and goes left, and this year hes added a decent jumpshot. 

Odom however, has the ability to create offense for himself and others in many many more ways than Martin. He can handle the ball MUCH better, pass the ball MUCH better, shoot MUCH better, and still rebounds just as good if not better than Martin. Martins only edge really is on defense.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> Odoms stats are better than Martins though, AND he outplayed him head to head. Yet people still claim Martin is the better player in a "no brainer"


Did Lamar Odoms stats just get better than Kenyons over the past 10 minutes?


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> Did Lamar Odoms stats just get better than Kenyons over the past 10 minutes?


If 10 minutes means in the last month. 

Man Odom is starting to steal Brands thunder as the most underrated player in the league. Unbelievable.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> I have watched plenty of Nets games. Martins points usually come off either fast breaks, rebounds, that little post move where he faces up and goes left, and this year hes added a decent jumpshot.
> ...


How else do you want Kenyon to score?

"Well Kenyon usually gets his points off fast breaks, rebounds, post moves, jump shot..." Damn, I guess he better invent a knew way to score that no one else has ever done before? Would you like him to head the ball into the basket next time?

For some reason, Odom can shoot the ball "MUCH better", yet his FG% is 80 points lower. A true phenomenon, right?

If Kenyon played point forward like Odom does, he would get the same number of assists. The man is even shooting a better 3 PT% than Odom!:laugh: 

Kenyon IMO, is a better scorer, defender, rebounder, more athletic, etcetera etcetera. To me, it is a NO BRAINER.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

In the last month:

Martin is averaging 17 points, 10 rebounds, 2 assists
Odom is averaging 17 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> In the last month:
> 
> Martin is averaging 17 points, 10 rebounds, 2 assists
> Odom is averaging 17 points, 11 rebounds, 5 assists


I didnt know one player can be better than the other from a single month. Thanks for the lesson teacher.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> Kenyon IMO, is a better scorer, defender, rebounder, more athletic, etcetera etcetera. To me, it is a NO BRAINER.


defender- martin is better. Odom has been holding his own against bigger pf's though
scorer. equal 
atheltic- yes, martin
rebounder- no way. Have u looked at Odom's rebounding numbers since going over to pf. Been averaging well over 10 since than

and if ext, ext, includes passing, thats another wong


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> How else do you want Kenyon to score?
> 
> "Well Kenyon usually gets his points off fast breaks, rebounds, post moves, jump shot..." Damn, I guess he better invent a knew way to score that no one else has ever done before? Would you like him to head the ball into the basket next time?
> ...


Thanks for misquoting me. Kenyon only has one post move and he just added a jumpshot. The fastbreaks are created by Kidd. 

If Kenyon was a point forward, the Nets wouldnt get the ball past halfcourt. 

Odoms shooting percentage is lower because people actually GUARD him on shots. I've seen Kenyon Martin get countless open jumpshots because either A) defenders dont think he can shoot or B) Kidd created the offense


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> I didnt know one player can be better than the other from a single month. Thanks for the lesson teacher.


Check the season totals, their not much different. I guess you're not paying attention.


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## SKiP (Jan 28, 2004)

I would rather have Odom because hes more talented as a basketball player. He's a better 3 point shooter, passer, ball handler, and rebounder. 

Nobody has brought this up but its something else Odom is better than Martin at. Martin is a 65% freethrow shooter and gets to the line 4.5 times a game. Odom is a 72% freethrow shooter with 4.9 attempts a game.

Odoms had to adjust for playing with the Heat and a new coach in Stan Van Gundy. While Martin has played for the Nets and the same coach for much of this season and last season. Now that Odom has had time to adjust to the change his stats have gone up. These are their stats in the month of December.

Odom: 17.4 ppg 11.4 rpg 4.5 apg 0.9 bpg
Martin: 17.3 ppg 9.7 rpg 2.1 apg 1.1 bpg

Odom is better in all those catogories except blocks. Martin has the advantage by .2 bpg. Now Odoms true potential is becoming noticed.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Thanks for misquoting me. Kenyon only has one post move and he just added a jumpshot. The fastbreaks are created by Kidd.
> ...


I have seen every single Nets game over the past 3 years. Kenyon does not get "countless open shots" unless he moves to create them himself. The Nets play in a _motion_ offense, therefore, because everyone is moving around, eventually an open shot should present himself. I didnt know the coaches are so horrible in the NBA that they tell their 4's not to guard K-Mart.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> I have seen every single Nets game over the past 3 years. Kenyon does not get "countless open shots" unless he moves to create them himself. The Nets play in a _motion_ offense, therefore, because everyone is moving around, eventually an open shot should present himself. I didnt know the coaches are so horrible in the NBA that they tell their 4's not to guard K-Mart.


They dont tell them "dont guard Kmart" but they DO tell them "help defense" and Martin is still the worst shooter on the floor for the Nets besides the center, even though hes improved in that area. 

I like Kmarts game, but is definitely not a no brainer. 

Question: How many games have you seen Lamar Odom in?


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> Question: How many games have you seen Lamar Odom in?


cant be many...its not like the heat are on television at all except in s florida


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b><< SkipToMyLou >></b>!
> I would rather have Odom because hes more talented as a basketball player. He's a better 3 point shooter, passer, ball handler, and rebounder.


For supposedly being a good 3 point shooter, Lamar Odom has a disgusting percentage: .285% Like I said before, even Kenyon is shooting better from the arc! BTW, Kenyon is a better rebounder.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> ! BTW, Kenyon is a better rebounder.


how?????....tied in that category, with odom way over since moving to pf


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> Question: How many games have you seen Lamar Odom in?



Over the past 3 years, pretty much every Clippers/Heat games that have been on Nat'l TV or against the Nets.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> cant be many...its no tlike the heat are on television at all


Thats obvious, which is why I asked. I havent seen Odom once this year because the Heat are never on TV. I live in LA though, so I got to see him game in and game out as a Clipper. The guy has the raw skills to be a top 10 player in the NBA. He can do it all.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vinsanity</b>!
> Odom, he can play SG, SF, PF


Yeah, I like Odom's versatility. He's even got the "potential" to play PG, though he hasn't reached that level yet.

If Odom were putting up weak numbers like Miles has, I wouldn't put so much stock in Odom's potential.

But since he's putting up similar numbers to Martin, and I feel Martin is tapped out in terms of talent while Odom can still improve, plus Odom has more versatility...I'd rather have Odom.

At worst, he'll simply be a minor star like Martin with lesser defense but more versatility. At best, Odom could become a superstar, if he fulfills more of his potential.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats obvious, which is why I asked. I havent seen Odom once this year because the Heat are never on TV. I live in LA though, so I got to see him game in and game out as a Clipper. The guy has the raw skills to be a top 10 player in the NBA. He can do it all.


Why do you continually refer to this year about Odom when you just admitted you havent seen him play once? BTW, many players have the "raw skills" to be a top 10 player, but there are certain ones who take it upon themselves to achieve it.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> Why do you continually refer to this year about Odom when you just admitted you havent seen him play once? BTW, many players have the "raw skills" to be a top 10 player, but there are certain ones who take it upon themselves to achieve it.


First of all, I've probably seen Odom play 20 times more than you, so dont talk about that. I've seen Martin more than you've seen Odom. 

Second of all, theres not "many" players who have the skill to be a top 10 player. The only one that comes to mind is Rasheed Wallace, and thats not bad company.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> how?????....tied in that category, with odom way over since moving to pf


Lets take a look at the starting rebounders surrounding each player(since Odom made his famed move to PF:

Brian Grant 7.7
Eddie Jones 3.6
Caron Butler 3.7
Rafer Alston 2.5
Total 17.5

Jason Kidd 6.4
Richard Jefferson 5.8
Jason Collins 4.8
Kerry Kittles 3.7
Total 20.7

Martin is obviously surrounded by better rebounders, therefore he doesnt have to pull down as many rebounds. While Kenyon splits his boards with Kidd, Jefferson, and Collins, the only player Odom really splits his boards with is Grant at 7.7.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

Nice poll


It's 10-10


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Marcus13</b>!
> Nice poll
> 
> 
> It's 10-10


Make it 11-10, it wont let me vote, but you know who my vote is for.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> Lets take a look at the starting rebounders surrounding each player(since Odom made his famed move to PF:
> ...


Grant was over 10 last year and would be if not for odom. Odom is pulling down his boards. I remeber everyone saying at the beginning of the year how we would be the worst rebounding team with a frontcourt of odom and grant. We lead the league in allowing the least offensive rebounds and are one of the best offensive rebounding and rebounding teams. Is it fair to say that odom is underatted when it comes to rebounding. Who woulda thought we would be one of the best when everyone put us as worst earlier this year. Odom is a huge reason for that


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## SKiP (Jan 28, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> Lets take a look at the starting rebounders surrounding each player(since Odom made his famed move to PF:
> ...


You cant just look at the starters rebounds per game because Odom has played a lot with Udonis Haslem, who is a great rebounder off the bench. Plus Dwyane Wade is one of the best rebounding PG in the league. You left him off the list as well. Those two are key rebounders for Miami.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

12-10 Odom, good to see that hes not as underrated as I thought.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b><< SkipToMyLou >></b>!
> 
> 
> You cant just look at the starters rebounds per game because Odom has played a lot with Udonis Haslem, who is a great rebounder off the bench. Plus Dwyane Wade is one of the best rebounding PG in the league. You left him off the list as well. Those two are key rebounders for Miami.


I left Wade off the list because this move to PF that you guys keep talking about, has Dwayne Wade not been injured for almost that entire time?


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## SKiP (Jan 28, 2004)

These are what the rpg should look like:

MIAMI
Brian Grant 7.7
Udonis Haslem 6.4
Wade 4.2
Butler 3.7

NEW JERSEY
Jason Kidd 6.4
Richard Jefferson 5.8
Jason Collins 4.8
Kerry Kittles 3.7


Miami is the team with the better rebounders on it. Odom still manages to slightly get more rebounds than Martin as well.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 12-10 Odom, good to see that hes not as underrated as I thought.


Just going to ignore my vote when I am the main one arguing for Martin?


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b><< SkipToMyLou >></b>!
> These are what the rpg should look like:
> 
> MIAMI
> ...


What position does Odom play when the PF, Haslem is in the game? You guys keep on referring to the move to PF. Has Wade not been injured the entire time Odom has been at PF?


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> What position does Odom play when the PF, Haslem is in the game? You guys keep on referring to the move to PF. Has Wade not been injured the entire time Odom has been at PF?


haslem plays time at center when grant is out of the game at times. Also, odom plays some time at sf when haslem is in which makes his reoubding total even more impressive. And no, wade hasnt been out the entire time, he was out for 9 or 10 games of the 30 or so


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

double post..ignore


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> Just going to ignore my vote when I am the main one arguing for Martin?


I had thought you voted. My bad.


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## SKiP (Jan 28, 2004)

Caron Butlers rpg should be up also because he played injured for a lot of games early on in the season. Hes playing better now, like he was playing last year. In the past 5 games hes been avg 6 rebounds per game. He would have been averaging this many if he hadn't returned from his injury so quickly. And 4.5 rpg for the month of January. When he was injured in november he had about 1 a game.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Some Random Comments on topic...

-Odom has by far the worst FG%, Least Points Per Game, and his team isn't in the Playoffs, whereas Martin's is the #2 Seed in the Conference. Martin also gets more steals and blocks, and the FG% difference is huge, 49.8%-41.6%. Odom turns the ball over more, and they both average 9.7 Rebounds per game. Odom's only advantage over Martin is in Assists, 4.1-2.4 per game. Martin averages 17.6 ppg compared to Odom's 16.9. 

-In reference to "Odom's FG% is only low because he takes so many 3's":
Who's fault is it that Odom takes too many 3's? He shoots over 3 of them per game, and shoots under 30% percent from behind the arc. Who's fault is it that Odom is chucking up so many 3's that he shouldn't be taking, Martin's?

-No, that is incorrect that they would shoot about the same if Odom didn't jack up so many 3's. Odom shoots 44.9% 2-Pointers, whereas Martin shoots about 50.4%. 

-Martin's team is the #2 seed in the East, Odom's team isn't in the playoffs. That's the fact.

-Other than Martin, who gets 17+ Points, 9+ Rebounds, 1.5+ Steals, 1+ Blocks and Shoots over 46% from the floor? I'll help you out, NOBODY. Martin is a complete player, offensively and defensively. He's lightyear's ahead of Odom on the defensive end. Martin is arguably a top 10 defender in the NBA. 

-Sure he benefits from playing with Kidd, but K-Mart is a good player in himself too. His athleticism is only one aspect of his game, an important one, but not his only asset. 

-Look at Martin's performence in the finals 2 years ago against the Lakers. In Game 4, he was the only reason the Nets were in the game, and he showed me a lot that game by the way he kept fighting despite being down 3-0 in the series. He played a hell of a game that night in the biggest game of his life to that point. Odom hasn't even been to the playoff's in his 5 year career. 

-The question is who you'd rather have, would you rather have a guy who has been suspended for drug abuse multiple times, and is injury prone, or a guy in Martin who has played almost 90% of the Nets games since entering the league. Martin is without a doubt more durable than Odom.

-Points per game? Advantage Martin. Rebounds? Push. Assists? Advantage Odom. FG%? Advantage Martin(By a lot). 3-PT%? Advantage Martin. Free Throw Percentage? Advantage Odom. Turnovers? Advantage Martin. Blocks? Advantage Martin. Steals? Advantage Martin.

-K-Mart is better than Odom, plain and simple. The stats back it up. Make all the excuses you want for Odom, and discredit Martin all you can, the numbers still speak for themselves, and show that Martin is clearly a superior player to Lamar Odom. The numbers don't even show how far ahead Martin is to Odom defensively.

*Verdict: Kenyon Martin over Lamar Odom*


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> -Points per game? Advantage Martin. Rebounds? Push. Assists? Advantage Odom. FG%? Advantage Martin(By a lot). 3-PT%? Advantage Martin. Free Throw Percentage? Advantage Odom. Turnovers? Advantage Martin. Blocks? Advantage Martin. Steals? Advantage Martin.


Your bias shows when you say "by a lot" on FG% but not on assists. 

Odom is averaging more points in the last month or two, and 1-2 more rebounds as well.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> *Verdict: Kenyon Martin over Lamar Odom*


ok....i see and understand your opinion, but is it a "no brainer" like others may think, or are they extremely close to one another


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Your bias shows when you say "by a lot" on FG% but not on assists.
> ...


That is because 4.1-2.4 is a far lesser difference than 49.8% to 41.6%. And like I said, Odom is the ball handler on the Heat, that is why he has 1.7 more assists than Martin, which is kinda pathetic ocnsidering how much more he handles the ball.

BTW, im pretty sure tupac isnt a Nets fan, therefore wouldnt have too much of a bias, other than the bias of the truth.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I voted for Odom because he was my boy. And after this season maybe he can have his spot back as one of my favorite players.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> ok....i see and understand your opinion, but is it a "no brainer" like others may think, or are they extremely close to one another


They are close to each other, but if someone was to ask me who I would rather have, it would be a no brainer to me.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

So averaging almost DOUBLE the assists isnt "alot" more? 

Like I said, If Martin did the ballhandling that Odom did, he wouldnt average more assists. The Nets wouldnt be able to get the ball past halfcourt. 

I doubt anyone who thinks Martin is a better ballhandler than Odom has seen Odom play. 

So if Tmac played the point, he'd average more assists than Jkidd? Yea okay. Handling the ball more doesnt get you more assists, you have to actually be a good passer. Odom is a better passer and a MUCH better ballhandler. 

This is definitely debatable on whos the better player, but it is NOT debatable when it comes to ballhandling.


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Odom quite easily IMO.
> 
> Martin benefits from playing with Kidd. Martin is more of a hustle energy player whos more athletic than Odom. Has a better post game, and is a better shotblocker although neither are very good at shotblocking.
> ...


you watch net games? take for isntance yesterday's game vs Houston, kenyon just blew up all by himself. There is no way someone can average 18ppg all based on hustle points and stuff backs, otherwise ben wallace should be able to score 18 a game. Guys like you make Kmart sound like a poor man's Ben Wallace who only scores cuz of kidd. If you even watched a friggan game you'd see he does have an array of post moves and is a superb passer for a PF. Yea sure take odom if you wanna be like the mavs and outscore evryone. Kenyon is the easy choice cuz he brign much more energy and play great D, Kenyon has proved he can guard the likes of Jermain O'Neal. Lamar would get schooled on D by any quality offensive player.


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## SKiP (Jan 28, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> Some Random Comments on topic...
> 
> -Odom has by far the worst FG%, Least Points Per Game, and his team isn't in the Playoffs, whereas Martin's is the #2 Seed in the Conference. Martin also gets more steals and blocks, and the FG% difference is huge, 49.8%-41.6%. Odom turns the ball over more, and they both average 9.7 Rebounds per game. Odom's only advantage over Martin is in Assists, 4.1-2.4 per game. Martin averages 17.6 ppg compared to Odom's 16.9.
> ...


FG% doesn't really prove who the better shooter is. Look at these comparisons.

Nowitzki- 45%
Brand- 53%

Q Richardson- 40%
Mason- 47%

Nowitzki and Q are obviously the better shooters but Brand and Mason have better FG% because they get more close shots and dunks. 

Even if you take away Odoms 3s he still shoots some far jumpers and tougher shots than Martin. The ball is usually in Odoms hand when the shot clock is winding down so he takes a bad shot. Martin doesn't need to decide whether the shot is good or bad because the ball isn't in his hand during those times. The ball is in JKidds hand and thats why JKidd has a 39 FG%. He gets blamed for the bad shooting and Martin doesn't because JKidd is forced to take the shot when nobody else is wide open.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> ok....i see and understand your opinion, but is it a "no brainer" like others may think, or are they extremely close to one another


No, it's not a no brainer, they are pretty close, but K-Mart is clearly better IMO.



> That is because 4.1-2.4 is a far lesser difference than 49.8% to 41.6%. And like I said, Odom is the ball handler on the Heat, that is why he has 1.7 more assists than Martin, which is kinda pathetic ocnsidering how much more he handles the ball.
> 
> BTW, im pretty sure tupac isnt a Nets fan, therefore wouldnt have too much of a bias, other than the bias of the truth.


I'm not a Nets or Heat fan, I have an unbiased opinion on the matter. 

And sure, Odom gets more assists, but he turns the ball over a lot more as well.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> quote:
> Originally posted by *wadecaroneddie*!
> 
> 
> ok....i see and understand your opinion, but is it a "no brainer" like others may think, or are they extremely close to one another


Your boy John the Cool Kid said "Lamar Odom quite easily".


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> you watch net games? take for isntance yesterday's game vs Houston, kenyon just blew up all by himself. There is no way someone can average 18ppg all based on hustle points and stuff backs, otherwise ben wallace should be able to score 18 a game. Guys like you make Kmart sound like a poor man's Ben Wallace who only scores cuz of kidd. If you even watched a friggan game you'd see he does have an array of post moves and is a superb passer for a PF. Yea sure take odom if you wanna be like the mavs and outscore evryone. Kenyon is the easy choice cuz he brign much more energy and play great D, Kenyon has proved he can guard the likes of Jermain O'Neal. *Lamar would get schooled on D by any quality offensive player.*


That whole paragraph contradicts the last statement if you had been aware of how Martin did against Odom head to head this season. 16 points, 8 rebounds which is under his average. While Lamar had 12 points, 18 rebounds, 6 assists in a win. 

So does Odom really get "schooled" by quality offensive players? Or is Martin just not a quality offensive player? Choose your point and stick to it.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b><< SkipToMyLou >></b>!
> 
> 
> FG% doesn't really prove who the better shooter is. Look at these comparisons.
> ...


Here's the deal brother. Its quite obvious you dont watch Nets games because that isnt true at all. The fact of the matter is, youre not arguing that Odom is the better player, youre just making excuses for him. When you have to make excuses to prove one player is better than the other, odds are you're wrong, which you are. Better check yourself.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b><< SkipToMyLou >></b>!
> 
> 
> FG% doesn't really prove who the better shooter is. Look at these comparisons.
> ...


Nobody will argue with you that K-Mart is a better jumpshooter than Odom, that's not what FG% represents. His FG% is a lot higher than Odom's for several reasons, and one is not that he's a better jumpshooter. Martin has better shot selection and better post moves, and knows where his weaknesses and strengths are, and utilizes his strengths to help the team offensively. 

Getting close shots and dunks don't just happen by themselves, you have to work to get position down low, move well without the ball, and run the floor. Martin does all those things very well.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> Your boy John the Cool Kid said "Lamar Odom quite easily".


ok.....i havent said that....ive said id rather have odom, but that they are very similair and have very similair stats....why u quotin me because somebody else said something


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## SKiP (Jan 28, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> 
> 
> you watch net games? take for isntance yesterday's game vs Houston, kenyon just blew up all by himself. There is no way someone can average 18ppg all based on hustle points and stuff backs, otherwise ben wallace should be able to score 18 a game. Guys like you make Kmart sound like a poor man's Ben Wallace who only scores cuz of kidd. If you even watched a friggan game you'd see he does have an array of post moves and is a superb passer for a PF. Yea sure take odom if you wanna be like the mavs and outscore evryone. Kenyon is the easy choice cuz he brign much more energy and play great D, Kenyon has proved he can guard the likes of Jermain O'Neal. Lamar would get schooled on D by any quality offensive player.



Wallace is averaging 9.6 points per game right now on the Pistons with Chauncey Billups at PG. If Ben Wallace and Jason Kidd were on the same team, Wallace's points per game would be way higher. Martin is a better offensive player than Wallace but just by a lil. Rip and Billups' shots are taking away from Wallace's offensive potential. If Wallace and Martin were to switch teams a lot of people would be surprised how good Wallace is on offense.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

jmk, I also said "quite easily IMO" which means in my opinion if you werent aware. 

Just like you have said Martin is easily better in YOUR opinion.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> ok.....i havent said that....ive said id rather have odom, but that they are very similair and have very similair stats....why u quotin me because somebody else said something


I was just usuing what you said against John who said Odom was better quite easily. I know I said it, but I was just showing it was both sides of the argument saying it.


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## MagnusPinus (Aug 27, 2003)

Odom by far... he can make the other players better..he is a lot more talented... Of course this is IMHO


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> That whole paragraph contradicts the last statement if you had been aware of how Martin did against Odom head to head this season. 16 points, 8 rebounds which is under his average. While Lamar had 12 points, 18 rebounds, 6 assists in a win.
> ...


Using one game is really a fair sample to assess a player's defensive capabilities, or another player's offensive capabilities. It is very well possible Martin can preform below his averages and it have nothing to do with Odom's defense. It's also convenient of you to leave out the fact that Odom shot 5-15 from the floor that game, a hardly stellar 33%.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Your bias shows when you say "by a lot" on FG% but not on assists.
> ...


Honestly where is the Heat's point? As you said KMart gets his points from Kidd. So now if that is true, Kidd must be getting others points. Odom is their ball handler. If the Nets didn't have Kidd won't it reason his apg would go up and his turn overs too like Odoms?

So you can't really say that Kidd creates all his offense, and that Martin can't get assists in the same arguement can you?

-Petey


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b><< SkipToMyLou >></b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Martin is a better offensive player than Wallace but just by a lil.


First of all, this isnt a Ben Wallace thread. Second of all, are you serious? I mean really, are you serious? How old are ya, 10, 11?:laugh:


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

Odom is a triple double threat. Odom had to play with skip to my lou vs Martin playing with Kidd. 

sure martin is underrated because most of the country just watch him on the break with Kidd running it and they won't show Martin shooting a jumper when sportscenter can show a dunk or alleyoop.

However Odom is so underexposed and so underrated. I'm voting for Odom


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> First of all, this isnt a Ben Wallace thread. Second of all, are you serious? I mean really, are you serious? How old are ya, 10, 11?:laugh:


He was just throwing any credibility he ever had out the window, that's all. Don't mind him.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

I just found it funny how you spent a whole paragraph praising Martins offensive ability and downing Lamars defense, but head to head Lamar held him under his average. I never said Martin wasnt a good defender, I expect him to do a good job on Odom thus the 5-15. Odom also more than doubled Martin in rebounds.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

Hey John, I just saw your signature. Pretty funny considering the stance youre taking here.:laugh:


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> I just found it funny how you spent a whole paragraph praising Martins offensive ability and downing Lamars defense, but head to head Lamar held him under his average. I never said Martin wasnt a good defender, I expect him to do a good job on Odom thus the 5-15. Odom also more than doubled Martin in rebounds.


Whoop dee do, Martin got held to 16 Points(1 point lower than his average) in a game where he took a whole 9 shots! Does Lamar deserve a medal for his efforts? One game can not be used to base anybody's defensive abilities or lack there of, either.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> Honestly where is the Heat's point? As you said KMart gets his points from Kidd. So now if that is true, Kidd must be getting others points. Odom is their ball handler. If the Nets didn't have Kidd won't it reason his apg would go up and his turn overs too like Odoms?
> 
> So you can't really say that Kidd creates all his offense, and that Martin can't get assists in the same arguement can you?
> ...


Its not about being forced to do something, I hate that assumption. You're saying Martin would make up for the slack without Kidd by upping his assists. In reality, without Kidd the Nets assists as a team would go way down, and the ball movement wouldnt be nearly as good. If you lose your best passer, the team assists per game dont just stay and same and get distributed through each players assists per game.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> Hey John, I just saw your signature. Pretty funny considering the stance youre taking here.:laugh:


LOL. I noticed that too earlier.


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## SKiP (Jan 28, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> First of all, this isnt a Ben Wallace thread. Second of all, are you serious? I mean really, are you serious? How old are ya, 10, 11?:laugh:


I guess I was exagerating a bit. But the fact is Kidd makes everyone around him better. When he first came to the Nets he was complaining that there weren't any good big men. Martin wasn't that good at the time. Now a couple years later martin has become a lot better on offense because of Kidd and the offense they run.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> Hey John, I just saw your signature. Pretty funny considering the stance youre taking here.:laugh:


Even though he's openly admitted K-Mart is a better defender, plus K-Mart averages more points and shoots a better percentage than Odom. Unbelievable...


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## KIMCHI (Oct 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> look at the head to head matchup in the last game
> 
> Odom 12 points 18 rebounds 6 assists 1 steal 1 block
> ...


you cant judge ones skills base on one game performance, odom clearly have big EDGE over k mart in all areas except DEFENSE, like so many have point out, k mart is virtually useless in a half court set offense, looking like hes gonna lose the ball everytime he touch it, and yes its in the post, i cant believe which idiot actually say he can play point forword, but thats insane, i believe every coach in the league wishes that nets put k mart as a point forword so that their point guard will have a chance to break the record for the assists in one game ha ha

back to the topic, k mart flourish in the fastbreak nets system, if you put odom in k mart's position then i agreed with you he might not be as effective simply because hes less athletic, but in terms of real basketball knowledge and skills, odom's overall game is more round and sophisticate, k mart never look comfortable with
the basketball, and have stiff hands, his shooting mechnics is rather mechenical, does not look natural at all, while odom is basically a point guard trap into a 6-9 body.
if you are compare both of them in terms of pure basketball skills then you all have to choose lamar odom, its a fact, if you cant face the fact then you are in serious denial.
but if i am the gm of nets i would take k mart over odom at any given day.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> Whoop dee do, Martin got held to 16 Points(1 point lower than his average) in a game where he took a whole 9 shots! Does Lamar deserve a medal for his efforts? One game can not be used to base anybody's defensive abilities or lack there of, either.


One game is definitely something you CAN refer to when you're comparing two players playing the same position. If the situation was reversed and Martin had outplayed Odom, you would be using the same argument. Odom outplayed Martin in that one game. Its not concrete, but it definitely only supports my side of the argument.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b><< SkipToMyLou >></b>!
> 
> 
> I guess I was exagerating a bit. But the fact is Kidd makes everyone around him better. When he first came to the Nets he was complaining that there weren't any good big men. Martin wasn't that good at the time. Now a couple years later martin has become a lot better on offense because of Kidd and the offense they run.


K-Mart's ppg have raised 5.6 since his rookie year 3 years ago without Kidd. 5.6 Points in 3 years really isn't all that much considering he's 26 now, and is supposed to be developing a lot as a player. How much of that can you honestly say is because of Kidd? He definitely would improve with or without Kidd.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> 
> 
> k mart is virtually useless in a half court set offense, looking like hes gonna lose the ball everytime he touch it, and yes its in the post


What in the world are you talking about? I wonder if youve seen the Nets even once. K-Mart is especially useful in the half court offense. He gets almost all of his points in the paint working it by himself. His spin mini-hook is almost unstoppable.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> Even though he's openly admitted K-Mart is a better defender, plus K-Mart averages more points and shoots a better percentage than Odom. Unbelievable...


Yep, Kmart is a better defender. His defense doesnt make up for the fact that hes not as good of a scorer, rebounder or passer.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> odom clearly have big EDGE over k mart in all areas except DEFENSE


How can you say Odom is clearly better in all areas except defense(a big part of the game by the way) when he is worse than Martin in PPG and FG% and plays for a team that is currently out of the playoffs when Martin's team leads the division and is currently the #2 seed in the playoffs for the East.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Yep, Kmart is a better defender. His defense doesnt make up for the fact that hes not as good of a scorer, rebounder or passer.


What makes Odom a better rebounder and scorer? They are even in rebounds and K-Mart has the edge in PPG even though he is in a team oriented O, plays 2 less minutes, and takes less shots.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Yep, Kmart is a better defender. His defense doesnt make up for the fact that hes not as good of a scorer, rebounder or passer.


Yet on a better team he scores more and shoots a better percentage, but he's not as good a scorer. And he averages the same number of rebounds as Odom, yet Odom's a better Rebounder? Why, because you say so?


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> plays for a team that is currently out of the playoffs when Martin's team leads the division and is currently the #2 seed in the playoffs for the East.


# 2 seed, not second best. Heat are half a game away from the 7th seed. Your arguement of that is true, but weak. Its not like the nets have a much better record than us either


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> What makes Odom a better rebounder and scorer? They are even in rebounds and K-Mart has the edge in PPG even though he is in a team oriented O, plays 2 less minutes, and takes less shots.


Exactly, that's what I want to know. K-Mart outpreforms Odom in every category except assists(and even in rebounds) despite playing less minutes. Explain how Odom is better in those areas.


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## KIMCHI (Oct 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> One game is definitely something you CAN refer to when you're comparing two players playing the same position. If the situation was reversed and Martin had outplayed Odom, you would be using the same argument. Odom outplayed Martin in that one game. Its not concrete, but it definitely only supports my side of the argument.


the reason odom is a better overall basketball player in term of skills is not base on one game, because odom is BETTER than k mart in terms of overall skills, if you have eyes and you can see you will understand what i am talking about, the closest comparison to k mart should be stro not odom, you put stro in nets system i believe he has the ability to accomplish just as much as k mart if not more.

i dont think theres too many will disagreed who has better overall basketball skills and knowledge between these two, and the answer clearly is LAMAR ODOM.
k mart clearly has a typical big man, while being super ultra athletic, he simply does not have the overall basketball skills of someone much shorter, lamar odom is closer to guys like kobe/t mac (as those are the most well rounded players in the league with a well balance of perimiter/post skills) in terms of overall skills than k mart, lamar is fully equipped with skills possess by someone much shorter.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> # 2 seed, not second best. Heat are half a game away from the 7th seed. Your arguement of that is true, but weak. Its not like the nets have a much better record than us either


Point is, it's true. The Nets are the #2 Seed in the Eastern Conference playoffs as of right now, and the Heat are not in the playoffs. Fair or not, and if the season ended today, that's the way it would be.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> What makes Odom a better rebounder and scorer? They are even in rebounds and K-Mart has the edge in PPG even though he is in a team oriented O, plays 2 less minutes, and takes less shots.


again, if odom played pf the entire year, they would not be even. Odom would have a good sized rebound advantage. Odom is easily the better rebounder. Thats one thing Odom is easily better in.


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## SKiP (Jan 28, 2004)

The Heat are 1/2 a game from the 7th seed in the East and only 5 1/2 games behind the Nets in the Atlantic. Despite the fact that Wade, Grant and Butler have all missed games or played injured for long stretches. The players on the heat had to have time to adjust and learn how to play with each other. Thats why they were 0-7 in the beginning of the season. If the heat didn't have these problems they would definetely be up in the standings. They still have the easiest schedule left in the East and will probably be no lower than #7. The #2 Nets vs #7 Heat would be a nice series.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Why is athleticism being talked of as if it's such a bad thing? Athleticism is a good thing to have, and if you use it to make you score more, or rebound more, why are those stats discredited because you use athleticism to obtain them? Doesn't that make you better, and why is it being looked down upon?


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## KIMCHI (Oct 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> 
> 
> Yet on a better team he scores more and shoots a better percentage, but he's not as good a scorer. And he averages the same number of rebounds as Odom, yet Odom's a better Rebounder? Why, because you say so?


you cant deny the fact that he got most of his points off j kidd's pass and he benefit greatly from a nets' fast break system, stats can easily fool you because he can have a 100 % field goal percentage on many games simply because he got all of them by a dunk or a putback.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> again, if odom played pf the entire year, they would not be even. Odom would have a good sized rebound advantage. Odom is easily the better rebounder. Thats one tinkg Odom is easily better in.


Shoulda, woulda, coulda. K-Mart averages .3 less rebounds over his career than Odom while Odom plays 2 more minutes per game.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

by far the easiest schudule. We have no west road games left and the least road games left of any nba team. As the only east team playing all their west road games, that does reflect our record


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> Shoulda, woulda, coulda. K-Mart averages .3 less rebounds over his career than Odom while Odom plays 2 more minutes per game.


and thats pathetic considering odom was a sf most of his career. A pf should average more and usually does. Thats why odom is averaging a lot more rebounds this year than others. He is finally getting to play where all his skills could be used


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> 
> 
> you cant deny the fact that he got most of his points off j kidd's pass and he benefit greatly from a nets' fast break system, stats can easily fool you because he can have a 100 % field goal percentage on many games simply because he got all of them by a dunk or a putback.


Lets face the facts, its looking more and more like youve never seen a Nets game in your life. Despite what SportsCenter shows you, there are more than 3 or 4 plays in a single NBA game. Kenyon doesnt get most of his points off JKidd passes. He gets most of them off working his *** off in the post and hitting the mid-range jumper. As a matter of fact, Kenyon hasnt done that much at all in the fast break this year.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

Odom is always going to be one of those players who is *overrated* in many fans opinions simply because of his "potential". Don't misundestand what I am saying Odom is a good player, but people fall in love with what he "could be".

Martin is a solid player at both ends of the court and the emotional leader of the back to back EC champs.

If all the NBA GM's were given a choice between Martin and Odom, IMO 99.9% of the GM's would take Martin.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> Exactly, that's what I want to know. K-Mart outpreforms Odom in every category except assists(and even in rebounds) despite playing less minutes. Explain how Odom is better in those areas.


I guess you came in late. 

Odom is averaging more points, rebounds, assists in the last two months. I believe something like 17-18, 11 and 5. While Martin puts up a consistent 17, 10 and 2. Those numbers are very close to their season averages, so the "its only two months" argument doesnt really hold any value. Stats only reflect ability.


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## nikebasketball (Jan 28, 2004)

*
I'd choose Lamar Odom.
*


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

More stats to consider:

Odom: 19.26 Efficiency Rating(23rd in the NBA)
Martin: 21.18 Efficiency Rating(15th in the NBA)

Odom: 24.17 Efficiency Per 48 Minutes(42nd in the NBA)
Martin: 28.2 Efficiency Per 48 Minutes(17th in the NBA)


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> If all the NBA GM's were given a choice between Martin and Odom, IMO 99.9% of the GM's would take Martin.


if u have insider can u please find an article of 5 gm/s who put together who should be on the all star team, and put odom in instead of martin. If i had insider i would post it myself. 99.9% gm's:laugh:


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> I guess you came in late.
> ...


Martin had stretches last year where he averaged 25/10, which mostly came when JKidd was out.

Martin also averaged 20/10 through the entire EC playoffs, which is a lot harder then the NBA regular season.

Additionally it is harder to accumulate stats on a good team, than a bad team. Proven fact in all sports.


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## KIMCHI (Oct 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> Why is athleticism being talked of as if it's such a bad thing? Athleticism is a good thing to have, and if you use it to make you score more, or rebound more, why are those stats discredited because you use athleticism to obtain them? Doesn't that make you better, and why is it being looked down upon?


my man, theres a big difference between a 100 percent field goal percetage consist of 10 dunks and a 60 percent field goal percentage consist of 10 jump shot create off the dribble, yes athleticism should also be look upon, but its a physical gifts, not an acutal basketball skills.

face the fact, LAMAR ODOM is a much better overall basketball player in term of actual basketball skills than KENYON MARTIN.
KENYON MARTIN is a highly super athletic garbage big man who excel in a fast break system run by jason kidd, take away jason kidd and replace him with dwayne wade lets see how his overall number will look like.
if you switch them by their respective team, i seriously think if lamar odom in the nets will do better than k mart in the heat, when it comes to athlecism, odom is no slouch also.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> if u have insider can u please find an article of 5 gm/s who put together who should be on the all star team, and put odom in instead of martin. If i had insider i would post it myself. 99.9% gm's:laugh:


It's an All-Star game. Different standards IMO.

If you are building a NBA team to win and had a choice between two players, similiar offensively, but one is a lot better defender AND a proven leader, it's not a hard choice.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

I am surprised no one has really looked at how unreliable Odom is. Not only has he had his problems with drugs, he also misses an unbelievable amount of games over his first 4 seasons.

Lamar Odom: 230 out of a possible 328. That means he's missed 30% of his teams games.

Kenyon Martin: 218 games out of a possible 246. That means he has missed only 11% of his teams games.

Kenyon played nearly as many games in his first 3 years as Odom played in his first 4.


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> 
> 
> face the fact, LAMAR ODOM is a much better overall basketball player in term of actual basketball skills than KENYON MARTIN.
> ...


I know this was said already, but you don't watch many Nets games do you.

Try to catch a replay of the Nets game yesterday, a majority of Martin's points came off of iso plays (which isn't that abnormal for Martin).


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> Additionally it is harder to accumulate stats on a good team, than a bad team. Proven fact in all sports.


Biggest misconception ever. 

You have to take into account whos the leader/distributor and whos the roleplayer. 

Martin is a roleplayer on a good team. Odom is the leader/distributor on a bad team. 

EXAMPLE: Latrell Sprewell went from leader on the Knicks, to roleplayer on the Twolves. His numbers from last year are UP this year despite playing on a MUCH better team.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

hes missed a total of 2 games this year, less than martin. He admitted that before coming to the heat he never lifted weights ext. He is a lot more reliable this year, with the heats trainers putting him the correct condition to play basketball. He is also averaging more minutes this year than martin, which shows he is more reliable


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## KIMCHI (Oct 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> Lets face the facts, its looking more and more like youve never seen a Nets game in your life. Despite what SportsCenter shows you, there are more than 3 or 4 plays in a single NBA game. Kenyon doesnt get most of his points off JKidd passes. He gets most of them off working his *** off in the post and hitting the mid-range jumper. As a matter of fact, Kenyon hasnt done that much at all in the fast break this year.


lets face the fact, KENYON MARTIN will and always will excel base on his ATHLETICISM, he will never be anything more than an athletic garbage big man, work his *** off in the post ?? with that little UNRELIABLE crummy move ?? hitting mid-range shot ?? no no, it seems to me he need to work extra hard on those ones.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> 
> 
> my man, theres a big difference between a 100 percent field goal percetage consist of 10 dunks and a 60 percent field goal percentage consist of 10 jump shot create off the dribble, yes athleticism should also be look upon, but its a physical gifts, not an acutal basketball skills.
> ...


Thats odd. Because I remember that when Kenyon played with Kidd out last year, and Anthony Johnson as the PG, Kenyon averaged something like 25 points and 17 rebounds. Perhaps Kidd was giving him those points and boards on the bench?


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

It would be nice to have either player, but I'll go with Odom.

Yeah, Martin's a really good player, but he has to learn to play in the half court more. It would be nice to seem him post up more often, I know he does it, just not often enough for a big man with such strength. He's also a great post defender.

But Odom is one of the most talented players in the league. He can play any position from the 1-4. He's not a good shooter, but he know's how to slash and cut inside. He's a great passer, and a very good rebounder. He does commit maybe too many turnovers, but that comes with a 6'10 player playing the point. He can be a great defender, if he really puts his head into it.

If Odom stays away from trouble, stays healthy and plays to his full potential. I believe he's a top 5 player in the NBA.


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## KIMCHI (Oct 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> I know this was said already, but you don't watch many Nets games do you.
> ...


i do watch more than you do, and everytime when k mart try that silly looking awkward low post move it just makes me yawnnnnnnn  and wanted to go to sleep, and by the way he missed those shots a lot more than he make them. hes at his best when he has to rely on his athleticsm, he will never have the overall skills of lamar odom, i just dont understand why none of you k mart *** kisser can get that fact straight.

and first of all i dont like lamar odom's game but to say k mart is better than odom just piss me off, but i respect lamar odom's game in terms of what he bring to the table, he might not be as athletic as k mart and will never be as spectacular on fast break as k mart but in terms of degree of difficulty in their shot attempts to convert into their field goal percentage, i definately have to go with lamar odom.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> 
> 
> lets face the fact, KENYON MARTIN will and always will excel base on his ATHLETICISM, he will never be anything more than an athletic garbage big man, work his *** off in the post ?? with that little UNRELIABLE crummy move ?? hitting mid-range shot ?? no no, it seems to me he need to work extra hard on those ones.


Your point is what? If he can get dunks, why the **** shouldn't he take them? Should he instead dribble out and chuck up dumb 3's like Odom and shoot barely over 40% from the floor? 2 points is 2 points, who cares how he gets it. What makes 2 points worse than another 2 points?


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> 
> 
> i do watch more than you do, and everytime when k mart try that silly looking awkward low post move it just makes me yawnnnnnnn  and wanted to go to sleep, and by the way he missed those shots a lot more than he make them. hes at his best when he has to rely on his athleticsm, he will never have the overall skills of lamar odom, i just dont understand why none of you k mart *** kisser can get that fact straight.
> ...


Lemme guess, you have seen more Nets games than me as well?


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Biggest misconception ever.


There have actually been dozen's of articles written (for each of the major sports) talking about the relevence of stats in comparison to how good your team is.

With out going into to detail, it is harder to put up good numbers in meaningful games than put up good numbers when teams take it easy against you.



> You have to take into account whos the leader/distributor and whos the roleplayer.
> 
> Martin is a roleplayer on a good team. Odom is the leader/distributor on a bad team.


If you are talking about a leader teamwise, almost every Nets player (including Kidd) refers to Martin as the heart of the team.

If you are talking about on the court leader, the Nets road Martin through the EC playoffs last year. It was his ability to score in the paint that allowed them to go 12-2 in that span. 

Calling Martin simply a role player is inaccurate.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> 
> 
> i do watch more than you do


:laugh: 

The Nets must play private games for you that aren't televised.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> If you are talking about a leader teamwise, almost every Nets player (including Kidd) refers to Martin as the heart of the team.
> 
> If you are talking about on the court leader, the Nets road Martin through the EC playoffs last year. It was his ability to score in the paint that allowed them to go 12-2 in that span.
> ...


Unbelievable. If I'm debating with people who think Martin is the leader of the team and not JASON KIDD, then this is truly hopeless.


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## KIMCHI (Oct 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> There have actually been dozen's of articles written (for each of the major sports) talking about the relevence of stats in comparison to how good your team is.
> ...


k mart isnt a role player, hes a star, in the same class as shard, stro etc
a little below the level of a top level star consists the likes of matrix, monster mash, peja, baron davis and odom.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Unbelievable. If I'm debating with people who think Martin is the leader of the team and not JASON KIDD, then this is truly hopeless.


I think i've used the term emotional leader, which is 100% correct with the Nets.

Jason Kidd is the on the court leader/general. Martin is the guy that gets after people and leads by example.

Do you disagree with that?

Are the Nets lying when they call Martin the emotional leader?


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## KIMCHI (Oct 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> Lemme guess, you have seen more Nets games than me as well?


maybe  was i there watching the game with you ??
how am i suppose to know ? DUH !!


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Unbelievable. If I'm debating with people who think Martin is the leader of the team and not JASON KIDD, then this is truly hopeless.


Then I guess we can kick all the Nets out of the league, because they all say that K-Mart is their heart(including J Kidd).


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> k mart isnt a role player, hes a star, in the same class as shard, stro etc


If you are refering to Rashard Lewis and Stromile Swift, Martin in better than both of them.



> a little below the level of a top level star consists the likes of matrix, monster mash, peja, baron davis and odom.


Odom does not belong on that list, but I would agree everyone else is ahead of Martin.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> I think i've used the term emotional leader, which is 100% correct with the Nets.
> 
> Jason Kidd is the on the court leader/general. Martin is the guy that gets after people and leads by example.
> ...


We were talking about stats and numbers. That emotional nonsense is irrelevant when talking whos the leader of the team in terms of creating for other players.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> 
> 
> maybe  was i there watching the game with you ??
> how am i suppose to know ? DUH !!


Well I, and prob, PSUmtg, watch every Nets game there is. Like I said before, I have seen every single Nets game over the past 3+ years.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

I don't think Martin is a "creation of Kidd," but I would note that a player on a fast-breaking team is likelier to have a superior field goal percentage to a player on a half-court set team, due to the higher number of easy baskets.

Further, Kidd *does* help Martin, as any great point guard helps his teammates get easier baskets. If Odom played with Kidd, Odom would get more easy baskets. That's what makes Kidd good. If Martin *weren't* benefited by Kidd, then we'd have to say Kidd is overrated as a play-maker. That's a reality that can be accepted without going all the way to the extreme of "Martin would be nothing without Kidd."

So, while Martin has an edge in field goal percentage, his system and teammates *do* have a significant impact on that.

I would definitely expect Odom's field goal percentage to rise if he played for the Nets in place of Martin and Martin's field goal percentage to drop if he played in Odom's place on the Heat.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> We were talking about stats and numbers. That emotional nonsense is irrelevant when talking whos the leader of the team in terms of creating for other players.


In that case, my comment was that Martin carried the Nets through the EC playoffs last year.

Do you disagree with that?


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## KIMCHI (Oct 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> I think i've used the term emotional leader, which is 100% correct with the Nets.
> ...


i like k mart's trademark scowl whenever he complete an alley-oops, but i have never seen odom does anything after he make his shot, maybe he should get a trademark as well dont you think ?? how about rub his 2 eyes and take a yawn as a trademark ?? wouldnt that be unique ??

toine's shimmey look funny and i like stro's birdy, d miles' head tapping is funny too, oh well too bad hes no longer a buddy of little q :uhoh:


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> We were talking about stats and numbers. That emotional nonsense is irrelevant when talking whos the leader of the team in terms of creating for other players.


I am wondering if you truly understand the game of basketball. "The emotional nonsense is irrelevant"? If guys like MJ, Bird, Magic didnt have heart, they wouldnt be what they were. Without Kenyon's heart and emotional leadership, the Nets would not be where they are.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> In that case, my comment was that Martin carried the Nets throw the EC playoffs last year.
> 
> Do you disagree with that?


I dont disagree with that, I never did. Although I dont think he "carried" them, but I do think he stepped up and was more of a duo with Kidd during those games, as opposed to being the 2nd option and roleplayer he usually is.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> I am wondering if you truly understand the game of basketball. "The emotional nonsense is irrelevant"? If guys like MJ, Bird, Magic didnt have heart, they wouldnt be what they were. Without Kenyon's heart and emotional leadership, the Nets would not be where they are.


READ! 

That emotional nonsense is irrevelant...okay here is where you forgot to read the rest, WHEN CONSIDERING STATS AND NUMBERS.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> 
> 
> i like k mart's trademark scowl whenever he complete an alley-oops, but i have never seen odom does anything after he make his shot, maybe he should get a trademark as well dont you think ?? how about rub his 2 eyes and take a yawn as a trademark ?? wouldnt that be unique ??
> ...


What the **** are you babbling about *edited: Let's dial down the heat a bit, eh? It's only a game...it's supposed to be fun.*?


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> READ!
> ...


It isnt irrelevant though. K's heart picks up the whole team and all of the players have evn said this: When they see K-Mart working so hard, it makes them work even harder.


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## KIMCHI (Oct 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> 
> 
> Your point is what? If he can get dunks, why the **** shouldn't he take them? Should he instead dribble out and chuck up dumb 3's like Odom and shoot barely over 40% from the floor? 2 points is 2 points, who cares how he gets it. What makes 2 points worse than another 2 points?


which of the following activity compose a higher degree of difficulty ?? dribble up and chuck up dumb 3's on a 40 something % or a dumb 2 handed dunk on a 80 something % ??
who has better skills out of these two ??


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> 
> 
> i like k mart's trademark scowl whenever he complete an alley-oops, but i have never seen odom does anything after he make his shot, maybe he should get a trademark as well dont you think ?? how about rub his 2 eyes and take a yawn as a trademark ?? wouldnt that be unique ??
> ...


I'm talking more about when Martin severly sprained his ankle in the playoffs last year and came back immediately with out getting it checked up.

People forget how "soft" the Nets were considered before Martin. Following the Nets as long as I have, I do remember the opinions of the Nets pre-Kidd and pre-Martin. I know where they have changed and who brings what to the Nets. There are some great/important qualities on the Nets that cannot simply be written of by the "well they have JKidd" comment. A lot of what the Nets do right (team defense), is lead by Martin.

Going off what you have read you seem to like the NBA's versions of And1 players (DMiles, Q, Odom), it doesn't suprise me that you like Odom more than Martin. But in terms of winning basketball, Martin is easily the better player.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> 
> 
> which of the following activity compose a higher degree of difficulty ?? dribble up and chuck up dumb 3's on a 40 something % or a dumb 2 handed dunk on a 80 something % ??
> who has better skills out of these two ??


Do you understand that not only are your numbers way off, but every single thing you have said makes no sense. Perhaps Lamar should stop taking these 3's if he's so damn bad at them?


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## KIMCHI (Oct 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> ...


yes they do sometimes, and your point is ?


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> It isnt irrelevant though. K's heart picks up the whole team and all of the players have evn said this: When they see K-Mart working so hard, it makes them work even harder.


Which is great. Its still irrelevant because I was talking about who creates the shots for the Nets, and whos running the show. 

Mark Madsen gives his team energy and heart when hes is, but he has nothing to do with running the show or creating shots for his teammates.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> There have actually been dozen's of articles written (for each of the major sports) talking about the relevence of stats in comparison to how good your team is.


Sure there have been. That doesn't make it true. Sportswriters write lots of things that sound good to them, whether it's actually true or not.



> With out going into to detail, it is harder to put up good numbers in meaningful games than put up good numbers when teams take it easy against you.


Now prove that teams take it "easy" on players, on a bad team. Think defenses take it easy on Tracy McGrady? They double and triple him and most defenders get up massively for any game against McGrady.

When teams "take it easy," they get beaten, by good or bad teams. Therefore, the vast majority of games, teams play hard, even against bad teams.

It's just one more attempt to discredit players on bad teams and simplistically blame them for being on a bad team. Sports media is so in love with winners that they'll invent anything to tear away at a player on a losing team.


----------



## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Which is great. Its still irrelevant because I was talking about who creates the shots for the Nets, and whos running the show.
> ...


The original point of yours was that Kidd was the leader of the Nets. My point is that Kenyon and Jason are co leaders of the NJ Nets.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> I dont disagree with that, I never did. Although I dont think he "carried" them, but I do think he stepped up and was more of a duo with Kidd during those games, as opposed to being the 2nd option and roleplayer he usually is.


Kidd carried the Nets through the 2001 EC playoffs.

Martin carried the Nets through the 2002 EC playoffs.


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## KIMCHI (Oct 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you understand that not only are your numbers way off, but every single thing you have said makes no sense. Perhaps Lamar should stop taking these 3's if he's so damn bad at them?


if k mart can show me he can take those dumb 3's like lamar on a 40 something percentage then i will consider take him in a heartbeat, k mart is not so bad at them, he simply CANT make them.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Now prove that teams take it "easy" on players, on a bad team. Think defenses take it easy on Tracy McGrady? They double and triple him and most defenders get up massively for any game against McGrady.
> 
> When teams "take it easy," they get beaten, by good or bad teams. Therefore, the vast majority of games, teams play hard, even against bad teams.
> ...


Exactly. Latrell Sprewell and Sam Cassell are PERFECT examples of that. Playing on a good team where the focus isnt on them at all times has boosted their games.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Which is great. Its still irrelevant because I was talking about who creates the shots for the Nets, and whos running the show.


If you have Jason Kidd (on almost any team), why would you have someone else create shots?

I don't get that argument.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> 
> 
> if k mart can show me he can take those dumb 3's like lamar on a 40 something percentage then i will consider take him in a heartbeat, k mart is not so bad at them, he simply CANT make them.


Do the research smartass. Kenyon actually has a better 3 PT% than Lamar's disgustingly bad 28%.


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## KIMCHI (Oct 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> I don't think Martin is a "creation of Kidd," but I would note that a player on a fast-breaking team is likelier to have a superior field goal percentage to a player on a half-court set team, due to the higher number of easy baskets.
> 
> Further, Kidd *does* help Martin, as any great point guard helps his teammates get easier baskets. If Odom played with Kidd, Odom would get more easy baskets. That's what makes Kidd good. If Martin *weren't* benefited by Kidd, then we'd have to say Kidd is overrated as a play-maker. That's a reality that can be accepted without going all the way to the extreme of "Martin would be nothing without Kidd."
> ...


come all you k mart *** kisser, read it


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> The original point of yours was that Kidd was the leader of the Nets. My point is that Kenyon and Jason are co leaders of the NJ Nets.


You guys took the "leader" part and ran with the emotional aspect. I originally said "leader/distributor" which means who creates the offense and distributes on the X and O part of the game. Martin is definitely not that guy, hes a roleplayer in that regard.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> If you have Jason Kidd (on almost any team), why would you have someone else create shots?
> 
> I don't get that argument.


When did I say Kidd shouldnt create the shots?


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## KIMCHI (Oct 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> Do the research smartass. Kenyon actually has a better 3 PT% than Lamar's disgustingly bad 28%.


oh yeah, and shaq had a 100 % 3 point field goal percentage a few years back, and we should consider him to be in the 3 point contest huh ??


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Sure there have been. That doesn't make it true. Sportswriters write lots of things that sound good to them, whether it's actually true or not.


I'm aware of your distate for the media and your belief that they create people, so I do not really want to get into that. It's a dead end argument based on opinion.



> Now prove that teams take it "easy" on players, on a bad team. Think defenses take it easy on Tracy McGrady? They double and triple him and most defenders get up massively for any game against McGrady.
> 
> When teams "take it easy," they get beaten, by good or bad teams. Therefore, the vast majority of games, teams play hard, even against bad teams.
> 
> It's just one more attempt to discredit players on bad teams and simplistically blame them for being on a bad team. Sports media is so in love with winners that they'll invent anything to tear away at a player on a losing team.


In football if one team gets up by a lot, they often go into a soft defense. This distorts the stats.

In baseball if one team gets up by a lot, they use a different sequence of relief pitchers. This distorts the stats.

In basketball if one team gets up by a lot, they usually play a softer defense. This distorts the stats.

Like I already said, I am not that concerned with your conspiracy theory regarding the media. Is bias? Sure, but you are on some Oliver Stone type stuff.

Additionally I don't base my opinion on what I read in the media. I simply stated that I was not the only person who ever came up with the concept that it's easier to put up numbers on a bad team.


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## KIMCHI (Oct 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> Do the research smartass. Kenyon actually has a better 3 PT% than Lamar's disgustingly bad 28%.


hey smart ***, whos a better 3 point shooter ?? shaq on a 1/1 attempt in a 100 % field goal percentage or steve kerr on a 995555/1000000 attempt in a 99 % field goal percentage.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> 
> 
> oh yeah, and shaq had a 100 % 3 point field goal percentage a few years back, and we should consider him to be in the 3 point contest huh ??


I love how you *edited* as this goes on. It makes it a lot easier for me. Lamar is a horrible 3 point shooter, therefore he should stop shooting so many.

*If you can't discuss this civilly, don't discuss it*


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> When did I say Kidd shouldnt create the shots?





> I originally said "leader/distributor" which means who creates the offense and distributes on the X and O part of the game. Martin is definitely not that guy, hes a roleplayer in that regard.


Martin plays a true PF spot with Kidd, who is arguably one of the best PG's in recent times. 

Odom plays a point SF/PF spot.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> 
> 
> hey smart ***, whos a better 3 point shooter ?? shaq on a 1/1 attempt in a 100 % field goal percentage or steve kerr on a 995555/1000000 attempt in a 99 % field goal percentage.


The thing is, youre an *edited*. Kenyon doesnt take 3's because that is not part of his game. Odom takes more than 3 3's a game, even though hes horrible at them. Dont know how Steve Kerr or Shaq got in on this convo.

*I'm going to just start removing posts you make that have insults.*


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> Martin plays a true PF spot with Kidd, who is arguably one of the best PG's in recent times.
> 
> Odom plays a point SF/PF spot.


I know. I didnt say Kidd shouldnt create the offense, I said Martin doesnt.


----------



## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Anyways, this thread got really out of hand, it was a good topic. We got like 150+ replies in a few hours. Thats a contraversial topic. 

I gotta jet though, good debate/argument with everyone. I dont think Martin is bad, I just think Odom is better. Its definitely debatable though, both sides brought up some good points in here. 

Peace.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> I know. I didnt say Kidd shouldnt create the offense, I said Martin doesnt.


Maybe part of the reason Martin doesn't create the offense is because of Kidd being there?

Just a thought.


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## KIMCHI (Oct 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm talking more about when Martin severly sprained his ankle in the playoffs last year and came back immediately with out getting it checked up.
> ...


dont blindfold your eyes just because k mart is your favourite player so automatically you assume that hes better than odom, neither k mart or odom is my favourite player and if odom is playing for the nets now instead of k mart, you will be one of those guys sitting here arguing about this topic the other way around.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> Maybe part of the reason Martin doesn't create the offense is because of Kidd being there?
> 
> Just a thought.


err, stop making me come back. 

You're right, Kidd is the reason Martin doesnt create the offense. That doesnt change the fact that Martin doesnt, and Odom does. That type of difference in roles can alter stats because the defenses strategy is focused on the Kidd/KG type player, and not the Martin/Sprewell type player. Thats why Sprewells number as a roleplayer, are BETTER on a BETTER team then when he was the leader of a bad team.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> Lamar is a horrible 3 point shooter, therefore he should stop shooting so many.


i agree he shouldnt shoot as much, but he isnt horible in any means. If kmart shot as much as him, he would have about the same percentage, because the ones who shoot a lot usually go through extended droughts at times, which lamar has gone through plenty of times this season with his 3 pt shot. He has been better as of late which has been good to see. He was 2-2 yesterday, with those 2 coming at huge times in the 4th quarter when the other team was making a run to catch up


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## KIMCHI (Oct 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> I love how you make yourself look more and more stupid as this goes on. It makes it a lot easier for me. Lamar is a horrible 3 point shooter, therefore he should stop shooting so many.


you have already reach a conclusion after knowing i have embarass you so badly you have to take this personally into your own account by attack me with some very friendly words, dont let your lack of maturity get in between you and your fight for k mart is the better player than odom.


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## Natty Dreadlockz (Jul 21, 2003)

I'd take Odom in a heartbeat.. Reason being.. This is the first season in 2 year's that Odom's been healthy & had his head on straight.. In his first 2 year's in the league, he was by far a better player than K-Mart!.. Right now.. Their number's do look similar, and I can see why there's so many people in K-Mart's corner considering all his success.. I guess only time will tell.


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## KIMCHI (Oct 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> i agree he shouldnt shoot as much, but he isnt horible in any means. If kmart shot as much as him, he would have about the same percentage, because the ones who shoot a lot usually go through extended droughts at times, which lamar has gone through plenty of times this season with his 3 pt shot. He has been better as of late which has been good to see. He was 2-2 yesterday, with those 2 coming at huge times in the 4th quarter when the other team was making a run to catch up


k mart's 3 point field goal percentage would have drop to a batting-average like number if he attemp as much 3 point as odom.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> k mart's 3 point field goal percentage would have drop to a batting-average like number if he attemp as much 3 point as odom.


Their point is he doesnt take threes. It doesnt make Martin a better three point shooter, but it means he has a better shot selection.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

*Removed. Fourth insulting post of this thread by you. I'm just going to keep removing posts with insults.*


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

wow. I think we found a replacement for T-Mac vs. Kobe.

Holy cow. Who knew so many people were passionate about Odom and Martin? And the board looks pretty much split down the middle about it.

Astounding.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm aware of your distate for the media and your belief that they create people, so I do not really want to get into that. It's a dead end argument based on opinion.
> ...


Sorry, buddy, but you don't know what you're talking about. This has *nothing* to do with the "media constructs images" argument of before.

This is about pretty common stuff about writers not using logic, just floating their pet theories. Writers rarely use logic, nor do they ever back up their opinions with facts. They write what sounds good to them.



> In football if one team gets up by a lot, they often go into a soft defense. This distorts the stats.
> 
> In baseball if one team gets up by a lot, they use a different sequence of relief pitchers. This distorts the stats.
> 
> In basketball if one team gets up by a lot, they usually play a softer defense. This distorts the stats.


Blow-outs are actually uncommon, which totally nullifies this *opinion-based theory*. (Let's forget about this being a "fact," as you portrayed it before.)

Limiting his to basketball, for now, since I don't want to lengthen this post by addressing each sport, even the best teams rarely break a 10 ppg average winning differential. Sure, they'll blow some bad teams out, but lose to or win close to plenty of others. Generally, winning spreads fall between 1 and 10 points, which means the game is in doubt until the final few minutes. And those final few minutes aren't enough time for teams to pull out all their starters and start using crap the rest of the game, nor does this leave enough time for players to quickly run up big numbers against "softer" defense.

In fact, one might argue that such "almost out of reach" games *hurt* the losing players' stats, because they're obligated to play a high-risk type of game that rarely works: shooting lots of threes. That hurts their field goal percentage and generally leads to *less* points than they would have scored if they had just played normally. That more than makes up for "softer defense" (defense is soft because teams know the losing team is going to be firing threes).

Therefore, this "bad teams get to bloat their numbers in garbage time" theory, while sounding nice at first, really doesn't work under any deeper scrutinty.



> Additionally I don't base my opinion on what I read in the media. I simply stated that I was not the only person who ever came up with the concept that it's easier to put up numbers on a bad team.


Oh, definitely you're not the only person. A lot of people think so. But no one has ever proven such a thing...they're all making up their own theories and backing them up with very little.

The fact that a lot of people think it doesn't really make it any likelier to be true, unless they show it with evidence. More evidence than, "I think teams go easy on bad teams."


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## Mattsanity (Jun 8, 2003)

Odom, because he's performing literally at the same level as Martin who's accompanied by the best point guard.


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## WhoDaBest23 (Apr 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> Odom, because he's performing literally at the same level as Martin who's accompanied by the best point guard.


I agree... Plus Odom has so much versatility and has a better shot than K-Mart.


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## AL9045 (Nov 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> If you are refering to Rashard Lewis and Stromile Swift, Martin in better than both of them.


You can't really compare them? Rashard is a SF, while Stromile is more of a center, although he does play PF.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> 
> 
> dont blindfold your eyes just because k mart is your favourite player so automatically you assume that hes better than odom, neither k mart or odom is my favourite player and if odom is playing for the nets now instead of k mart, you will be one of those guys sitting here arguing about this topic the other way around.


Blindfold my eyes?

Their offensive stats are similiar, Martin is pretty much the unquestioned better defensive player, Martin has shown an ability to lead his team while Odom has been in trouble, and Martin has carried his team through an entire playoff run.

The "simply arguing for your guy" arguement doesn't work here.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> err, stop making me come back.
> ...


Once again, Martin plays a true PF role while Odom plays more of a point SF/PF role. Of course they are going to have different styles of play. The same would be said if you compared a PG and a SG. 

Kidd is the unquestioned best player on the Nets, but the KG/Sprewell and Kidd/Martin comparison doesn't really work. KG is such a dominate post player that you have to double him or zone him, that it creates shots for other players. Kidd is not that great of a scorer and therefor does not draw as much attention in the halfcourt, which increases the pressure on Martin (who has been double teamed more than any other Nets player). 

The main stragey that teams apply to stopping Kidd is forgetting about offensive boards and getting back on defense to prevent the fastbreak, but that also hurts Martin.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Their point is he doesnt take threes. It doesnt make Martin a better three point shooter, but it means he has a better shot selection.


Shot selection is a reflection of the players ability. :grinning:


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Writers rarely use logic, nor do they ever back up their opinions with facts. They write what sounds good to them.


If that is your opinion on ALL writers, your opinion on ALL writers is naive. There are respectable writers that study the game and write respectable books/articles.



> Therefore, this "bad teams get to bloat their numbers in garbage time" theory, while sounding nice at first, really doesn't work under any deeper scrutinty.


That was just one example of how it is easier to put good numbers up on a bad team. There are other examples.

As a Nets fan, I have seen Derrick Coleman put up meaningless numbers for year when teams could careless about the Nets. Living close to Philly, I saw the same thing with Jerry Stackhouse.

Quality players not only score, but make their team better (for example, Michael Jordan, Shaq O'Neal, and on smaller terms Kidd/Martin). Average players put up nice stats, while their teams don't change much (Coleman, Stackhouse, Odom).


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> Odom, because he's performing literally at the same level as Martin who's accompanied by the best point guard.


Offensively they are similiar, but defensively they are not.

Do you feel this team goes 12-2 in the EC playoffs last year...

Kidd
Kittles
Jefferson
Odom
Collins

???


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> Offensively they are similiar, but defensively they are not.
> ...


i think they would do as well.....truly, if odom was healthy of course


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> i think they would do as well.....truly, if odom was healthy of course


Did you watch the EC playoffs last year?

The main reason the Nets went 12-2 and to the NBA Finals was Martin's ability to score in the post and take advantage of the other EC front courts.

Do you honestly believe Odom could have provided the same thing?

Along with the interior defense of Martin?


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> Did you watch the EC playoffs last year?
> ...


of course he couldnt have provided the same things, but he could of done many other things that Martin does not do that could of helped u win. He is good at posting up himself, not as good as martin of course, but above average at it. I do agree that for the Nets, Martin is a better fit than Odom, but Odom i think is a better player and could of gotten u guys as far..honestly


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> of course he couldnt have provided the same things, but he could of done many other things that Martin does not do that could of helped u win. He is good at posting up himself, not as good as martin of course, but above average at it. I do agree that for the Nets, Martin is a better fit than Odom, but Odom i think is a better player and could of gotten u guys as far..honestly


Fair enough.

My take is that interior offense/interior defense is what got the Nets so far in the playoffs last year. Martin was the main cog in that interior offense/interior defense.

Odom is much more of an offensive player, so to replace Martin with Odom...Odom would have to increase the Nets offensive by the same amount he decreased their defense. And IMO, Odom is not THAT much better offensively than Martin.


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> of course he couldnt have provided the same things, but he could of done many other things that Martin does not do that could of helped u win. He is good at posting up himself, not as good as martin of course, but above average at it. I do agree that for the Nets, Martin is a better fit than Odom, but Odom i think is a better player and could of gotten u guys as far..honestly


lol you telling me lamar odom could stick with jermaine o'neal?? martin played duncan very well the first 4 games of the finals, if odom was there nets would'e been swept in 4 vs spurs last year if they would have even made it there,


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> If that is your opinion on ALL writers, your opinion on ALL writers is naive. There are respectable writers that study the game and write respectable books/articles.


Well, I said "rarely," not "never." There are a very few writers (Rob Neyer or the Baseball Prospectus writers, in the sport of baseball, are examples of the rare sort) who actually provide solid evidence.

The vast majority of sports writers are all assertion, little to no supporting evidence.



> As a Nets fan, I have seen Derrick Coleman put up meaningless numbers for year when teams could careless about the Nets. Living close to Philly, I saw the same thing with Jerry Stackhouse.


I would say that's a subjective opinion based on the pre-conception that stats are meaningless on bad teams, rather than objective evidence that swayed you from total neutrality to believing players on bad teams get easy stats.



> Quality players not only score, but make their team better (for example, Michael Jordan, Shaq O'Neal, and on smaller terms Kidd/Martin).


The best players do that. But then, such players can exist on bad teams...make their teams better, but still have so little talent around them that the team still can't win, like Tracy McGrady or Jason Kidd on the Mavericks.

Laughable that you threw Martin in. Kidd, of course, makes his team better. Adding Martin to the list (and Odom to the next list) was blatantly self-serving and ridiculous. Martin hardly makes his teammates better. He's a good player, but not one of the special players that makes players around him better.



> Average players put up nice stats, while their teams don't change much (Coleman, Stackhouse, Odom).


Those players are hardly average. Elton Brand is another example of a player who puts up nice numbers but doesn't make his team better. The reason is because he doesn't draw double-teams in putting up his numbers, so his teammates don't benefit from his presence.

That doesn't make Brand (or Jerry Stackhouse, Lamar Odom, Kenyon Martin, etc) average players, just because they don't make their teammates better.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> 
> 
> lol you telling me lamar odom could stick with jermaine o'neal?? martin played duncan very well the first 4 games of the finals, if odom was there nets would'e been swept in 4 vs spurs last year if they would have even made it there,


well for one, the nets didnt face the pacers, so i have no clue where u are gettin JO from. With the spurs, they had no shot anyway. He said eastern conference playoffs, and in that i think they could of done as well


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> well for one, the nets didnt face the pacers, so i have no clue where u are gettin JO from. With the spurs, they had no shot anyway. He said eastern conference playoffs, and in that i think they could of done as well


Martin shut down JO the year before and does so pretty regularly.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Well, I said "rarely," not "never." There are a very few writers (Rob Neyer or the Baseball Prospectus writers, in the sport of baseball, are examples of the rare sort) who actually provide solid evidence.


I grew up on baseball and most of the literature I have read is baseball related, but at the same time most of the concepts are universal to sports.



> I would say that's a subjective opinion based on the pre-conception that stats are meaningless on bad teams, rather than objective evidence that swayed you from total neutrality to believing players on bad teams get easy stats.


This is a message board were we argue/debate opinions, nothing more, nothing less.

My opinion is based on years of watching sports, just as yours is based on something.



> The best players do that. But then, such players can exist on bad teams...make their teams better, but still have so little talent around them that the team still can't win, like Tracy McGrady or Jason Kidd on the Mavericks.


Kidd had a significant impact on the Mavs his first year.



> Laughable that you threw Martin in. Kidd, of course, makes his team better. Adding Martin to the list (and Odom to the next list) was blatantly self-serving and ridiculous. Martin hardly makes his teammates better. He's a good player, but not one of the special players that makes players around him better.


I said Martin on smaller terms, which is true.

Kidd is the main reason the Nets have turned around in respects to their offense. He is a great PG and it shows in the Nets fast break. However Kidd has his liabilites on defense.

The Nets have been one of the top defensive teams the past few season and Martin is the main reason why.


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## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

Martin hands down.

Kenyon is a better rebounder, low-post scorer, and hustler.

Lamar is to injury prone. But when comparing players, it all depends on what a team needs. 


Kenyon Martin is best because he is a physical enforcer. But he also is a dangerous scorer and rebounds the basketball very well.

Ill take the qualities of a enforcer who can do the same things if not better over a average NBA scorer. 


KMART.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

if you need just a guy to bang inside, you take kmart


odom can give you any position from 1-4 and possibly even 5 (not really-but he probably could for a lil while)

Odom is a better shooter, KMart is stronger inside

their rebounding is about even in my opinion

passing goes to odom

if i pick, i take odom b/c he gives you more than kmart can


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## xbballplaya223x (Dec 17, 2003)

why is it that in the jefferson vs artest thread people say artest is a better defender and jefferson is a better scorer and pick artest. AND in this thread they say martin is MUCH better defensive player than odom but pick odom because of his offensive skill


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>xbballplaya223x</b>!
> why is it that in the jefferson vs artest thread people say artest is a better defender and jefferson is a better scorer and pick artest. AND in this thread they say martin is MUCH better defensive player than odom but pick odom because of his offensive skill


That's what i'm saying. :no:


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

wow this thread has exploded...

i would take either...


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> if you need just a guy to bang inside, you take kmart
> 
> 
> ...


How about Kenyons far more superior D? Kenyon brings more to the floor. They only thing Odom does better is pass/ball handle. And thats it. Other things are close except for post play and D, both of which Martin far exceeds Lamar.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> They only thing Odom does better is pass/ball handle. .


until u give odom his rebounding credit im going to keep bringing it up. Odom is a better rebounder and the best rebounder on a team that leads the league in giving up the least offensive rebounds. Martin is not better than him at it. Again, since they started playin the same position, odom has been well over him. Odom is also a better scorer who could get it done in more ways than martin


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> This is a message board were we argue/debate opinions, nothing more, nothing less.


Okay, then don't claim your opinion is proven fact, as you did for this opinion several pages back.

It's far from proven. In fact, zero evidence for it has been shown, which makes it nothing but a guess.



> I said Martin on smaller terms, which is true.


Everyone helps their team "in smaller terms." The Miami Heat are better than they were last year...clearly, then, Odom has had a significant effect.

It's just your Nets fan bias to claim Martin "makes people better" while Odom is just an "average player" who doesn't make his teammates better.

In fact, with Odom's far, far superior play-making skills, Odom probably makes his teammates better considerably more than Martin does.


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## AL9045 (Nov 27, 2003)

32-32.

Pretty even.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Everyone helps their team "in smaller terms." The Miami Heat are better than they were last year...clearly, then, Odom has had a significant effect.


The Nets were a horrible team on both ends of the floor pre-Martin/Kidd. In 2000-2001 they gave up 97 ppg, this year the Nets are giving up 86. Martin's defensive impact on the Nets has been significant.

To this point, the Miami's scoring is up 1 ppg from last year. If Odom's impact is on the offensive end, it really has not came yet. Although it may.



> It's just your Nets fan bias to claim Martin "makes people better" while Odom is just an "average player" who doesn't make his teammates better.


Maybe it's your hatred for the Nets that causes you to dog them.

Or maybe it is my bias towards defensive players, considering I picked Ron Artest over RJ in the other thread.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> Maybe it's your hatred for the Nets that causes you to dog them.


What is there to hate the Nets for?

Because they are awful this year? 2 Finals in a row and fall to an average team now....pathetic....

I have absolutely no respect for K-Mart after the Zo incident. He is a punk who can't control his temper. He has talent but is too busy being a toughguy to put it out there 100%.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> The Nets were a horrible team on both ends of the floor pre-Martin/Kidd. In 2000-2001 they gave up 97 ppg, this year the Nets are giving up 86. Martin's defensive impact on the Nets has been significant.


You seem to be confused. Your original standard was "making your *teammates* better." Now you're arguing "making your *team* better."

*All* average or above average players make their team better. Nobody argued that the young Jordan didn't make his team better. It was making his *teammates* better than people said Jordan didn't do.

Those are two very separate things. There's no way in hell Martin makes his *teammates* better. As a good player, of course he makes his *team* better.

As does Odom or any other good player.



> To this point, the Miami's scoring is up 1 ppg from last year. If Odom's impact is on the offensive end, it really has not came yet. Although it may.


You really need to stop approaching these things so simplistically. The Heat have suffered tons of injury to key players like Caron Butler, notably. The fact that they are up in scoring at all, despite that, shows big improvement.



> Maybe it's your hatred for the Nets that causes you to dog them.


What hatred? I've rooted for the Nets in both Finals they've been in.

I guess to your way of thinking, if I'm not a Nets fan, I must hate them. Very logical.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Because they are awful this year?


Those awful Nets, who played as late as any team last year, sent their three best players to play in the Olympic Q's, and battled through some tough times this year (Zo, team moving) are still 5.5 games ahead of the Heat.

So if the Nets are AWFUL, where are the Heat at?



> 2 Finals in a row and fall to an average team now....pathetic....


The season is only about half way over, plenty of basketball left. 



> I have absolutely no respect for K-Mart after the Zo incident. He is a punk who can't control his temper. He has talent but is too busy being a toughguy to put it out there 100%.


Zo himself had anger problems when he was younger and had to attend anger management classes, so to hate Martin for his anger is a bit ironic.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> You seem to be confused. Your original standard was "making your teammates better." Now you're arguing "making your team better."


Re-read my original standard, maybe you are confused. 

*Quality players not only score, but make their team better* 



> You really need to stop approaching these things so simplistically. The Heat have suffered tons of injury to key players like Caron Butler, notably. The fact that they are up in scoring at all, despite that, shows big improvement.


And the Nets have been healthy all year?



> What hatred? I've rooted for the Nets in both Finals they've been in.
> 
> I guess to your way of thinking, if I'm not a Nets fan, I must hate them. Very logical.


No, I just like throwing out inaccurate labels just like you.

If I were simply going my Nets "bias" as you like to call it, I would have picked Richard Jefferson over Ron Artest. But just as I argued in this thread, I argued in that thread that if the players are similiar offensively...I will take the better defender 10 times out of ten. 

I didn't change my standard of what I want in a player based on which Nets player was in the poll, which I would do if I made my choices off of bias. 

You like to whine about people presenting opinion as fact, then do so yourself, then label people, then whine when they label you. You are like talking to a lawyer/politician.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> *Quality players not only score, but make their team better*


Every player does that, or gets cut. No team employs players unless they feel they make the team better.



> And the Nets have been healthy all year?


So? I wasn't the one arguing that Martin hasn't helped his team. You were trying to use team stats to show that Odom had had little effect, which wasn't an accurate analysis.



> No, I just like throwing out inaccurate labels just like you.


Oh, you're *not* a Nets fan?



> If I were simply going my Nets "bias" as you like to call it, I would have picked Richard Jefferson over Ron Artest.


That's like saying a Knicks fan proves he's objective by picking Michael Jordan over John Starks. Yes, that's an exaggeration but my point is, some picks are obvious. Nobody in their right mind would select Jefferson over Artest. Almost everyone has been saying Artest is a legitimate All-Star candidate. No one on Earth is calling Jefferson a legitimate candidate.

Odom and Martin are actually close. And, in fact, *can go either way* (which I've never denied). I said you were being biased by putting Martin up in some special class of players who help their team and putting Odom in another class that don't. There's no way you would if you were a Miami fan or even a neutral fan (like me, being neither a Miami nor a New Jersey fan).



> You like to whine about people presenting opinion as fact, then do so yourself


Where did I do so? Show me one instance where I said something was proven or a fact.

And I didn't "whine" that you labelled me, I was pointing out that calling me a hater was foolish because it was wrong. Meanwhile, saying you're biased because you're a Nets fan is perfectly reasonable. Almost every fan is biased towards his team.

Think you'd be willing to die to protect Kidd's golden rep if you were, say, a Kings fan, or a Clippers fan? If so, you're in a dreamland...you're obviously biased towards your favourite team's players.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Every player does that, or gets cut. No team employs players unless they feel they make the team better.
> 
> So? I wasn't the one arguing that Martin hasn't helped his team. You were trying to use team stats to show that Odom had had little effect, which wasn't an accurate analysis.


Does every player have the same impact, or do some players impact their team more than others?

My point was that Martin has had a bigger impact on the Nets defense, than Odom has had with Heats offense to this point. 

And that wasn't my only reason for Picking Martin over Odom, just one aspect of the discussion that we have had here.



> So? I wasn't the one arguing that Martin hasn't helped his team. You were trying to use team stats to show that Odom had had little effect, which wasn't an accurate analysis.


My point was injuries are a part of the game. 

The impact a player has on his team is important *in my opinion of who I think is better.* It is not the sole reason I think Martin is better, but it is part of the reason.



> Nobody in their right mind would select Jefferson over Artest. Almost everyone has been saying Artest is a legitimate All-Star candidate. No one on Earth is calling Jefferson a legitimate candidate.


My standard is the same though. If the players have a similiar offensive output, I lean to the better defensive player.



> Odom and Martin are actually close. And, in fact, can go either way (which I've never denied). I said you were being biased by putting Martin up in some special class of players who help their team and putting Odom in another class that don't.


I never said that they were not close and I never said that Odom does not help his team.

I did say that they were close offensively (with Odom being better), but Martin was clearly the better defender.

I also said Martin has had a bigger impact on his team.



> Where did I do so? Show me one instance where I said something was proven or a fact.


I am familiar with the rhetoric of argument. I could go through each of your posts picking out small techincalities, like you do to other people, and we could go back and forth all day. 

But I come here to talk basketball, not write persuasive arguments. 



> And I didn't "whine" that you labelled me, I was pointing out that calling me a hater was foolish because it was wrong. Meanwhile, saying you're biased because you're a Nets fan is perfectly reasonable. Almost every fan is biased towards his team.


And it's perfectly reasonable for you to have a bias towards a player/team, even for a reason such as disliking their fans, etc. Biases exsist in every argument and for you to say that I have a bias and you don't is rather arrogant.



> Think you'd be willing to die to protect Kidd's golden rep if you were, say, a Kings fan, or a Clippers fan? If so, you're in a dreamland...you're obviously biased towards your favourite team's players.


You seem to enjoy arguing more than the actual discussion itself. Like I said, just like a lawyer.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> You seem to enjoy arguing more than the actual discussion itself. Like I said, just like a lawyer.


Like a grade schooler, you seem to enjoy attacking posters more than the actual discussion, itself. While this is a very low-grade attack (and perfectly within the rules), it's still juvenile on your part. Ad hominem attacks are typical of those who can't coherently put together their position. 

We can end this, then. I doubt much productivity is going to come from this exchange anymore.


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## catcher (Jan 2, 2004)

What is there to argue about kidd's misdeeds? That's like three years ago


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Like a grade schooler, you seem to enjoy attacking posters more than the actual discussion, itself. While this is a very low-grade attack (and perfectly within the rules), it's still juvenile on your part. Ad hominem attacks are typical of those who can't coherently put together their position.
> ...


Actually my discussion with almost everyone else have been pretty cival, sticking strictly to the topic at hand. Even in this thread, I pretty much talked about Martin vs Odom until I got involved in this debate with you over who knows what. 

In a debate I will questions someone's stance while sharing mine, because that is the point of the debate in the first place in my opinion. I don't feel i've attacked anyone personally. If I have and you can point it out, I have no problem appologizing to that person.

And just as you have accused me of "attacking posters more than the actual discussion", I hope you realize you have done the same to me from very early on in this discussion.

I feel I can coherently put together a position and feel I have done so here. Outside of the dialogue we have shared, I feel I have been fairly cival and respectful. Like I said earlier, my interest is talking basketball not going back and forth with you or anyone else over this stuff. Maybe it's just something between me and you. 

Either way it's not that big of a deal, this is just a message board. Take care.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> If I have and you can point it out, I have no problem appologizing to that person.


I was referring to your multiple times calling me a "lawyer," which was obviously meant to undermine my position without actually addressing my points.

As I said, it was low-grade (which is why I wouldn't even consider editing it; it's well within the rules), but is *is* bush-league and juvenile.

But anyway, no apology necessary. You felt I was arguing in some fashion you didn't like, and I clearly feel you argue in a fashion I don't like.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> I was referring to your multiple times calling me a "lawyer," which was obviously meant to undermine my position without actually addressing my points.
> 
> As I said, it was low-grade (which is why I wouldn't even consider editing it; it's well within the rules), but is is bush-league and juvenile.


I tried to address all of the Basketball/Martin v Odom points that you put out there. 

As far as the "lawyer" comment. My exact words were that you *argue* like a lawyer and what I meant by that is you get upset when someone argues in a certain manner, while you argue in the same manner yourself. That is as far as my "lawyer" comment/comparison was meant to go. 

Still, my aim is not to slide just within the rules or make "bush" comments. Right or wrong, if my comment bothered you I apologize for it.



> But anyway, no apology necessary. You felt I was arguing in some fashion you didn't like, and I clearly feel you argue in a fashion I don't like.


Like I said before, maybe it's just something between me and you. Even so...I post here to talk sports, not to argue about each other. In future threads you do not have to worry about this being a problem from my end.


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## Kunlun (Jun 22, 2003)

I would choose Odom because he is younger and more versatile.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Its not about being forced to do something, I hate that assumption. You're saying Martin would make up for the slack without Kidd by upping his assists. In reality, without Kidd the Nets assists as a team would go way down, and the ball movement wouldnt be nearly as good. If you lose your best passer, the team assists per game dont just stay and same and get distributed through each players assists per game.


I guess I will have to use some logic to explain this. For arguement sake, let us say Jason Kidd is the best player at getting assists in the league. If you replace him with Skip, do you think Skip will pick up all his assists? Or do you think while overall the team would be less effective offensively, but Martin would be able to get an assist more per game which would close the gap between him and Odom in that category? I am not saying Martin will becoming a passing big like Duncan or KG, but would the 2 assist difference become smaller?

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> you cant deny the fact that he got most of his points off j kidd's pass and he benefit greatly from a nets' fast break system, stats can easily fool you because he can have a 100 % field goal percentage on many games simply because he got all of them by a dunk or a putback.


Right now Kidd averages about 10 apg. KMart averages 17 ppg, how many on FGs? For arguement sakes lets say KMart makes 7 FTs per game, and makes 5 FGs per game. You think Kidd only picks up 5 more assists from the other guys on the floor?

It's really mind blowing that some people can't use some simple calculations to reason thoughts.

-Petey


----------



## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> and thats pathetic considering odom was a sf most of his career. A pf should average more and usually does. Thats why odom is averaging a lot more rebounds this year than others. He is finally getting to play where all his skills could be used


Do you happen to realize Martin plays with Jason Kidd? A PG whom can out rebound Duncan, Shaq or KG on some nights? It's the nature of their game. Martin starts to set up offensively with Kittles behind the arc, Jefferson on one wing, and Martin in the post and Collins at the FT while Kidd brings the ball up. If now KMart stayed closer to the board, that would mean 1 more pass at the least, slowing down offensive setup.

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> I guess you came in late.
> ...


Stats only reflect ability? Dude you been following the Lakers when they put Malone, Payton, Kobe and Shaq on the same floor? Or have you seen Peja's production without Webber eating up shots? ALOT of the time stats are as much about the team you play on, their options, not just ability. Kittles, Kidd, RJ, Martin are not the Kings or Lakers, but Kidd is way better then the Heat's PG. You tell me how much Jones is then Kittles (I think he is better and would be the biggest advantage the Heat have over the Nets, but how often is the man out?), is Butler better then Jefferson now? There is a reason Martin has taken less shots then Odom...

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Biggest misconception ever.
> ...


Have the stats of Malone and Payton fallen on the Lakers? Has Peja scored more points Webbers' yearly vacation? When Jordan came back to the Bulls did Pippen's PPG fall? From what I remember off the top of my head, Pippen has his career high in PPG when Jordan was playing baseball. Try to look at more then 1 example at a time and the circumstances behind the example. From what I remember about the Knicks last year, Sprewell broke his hand, was made at the Knicks (for fining him), he was just not a happy camper. Perhaps he feels a sense of renewed vigor in Minn?

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> hes missed a total of 2 games this year, less than martin. He admitted that before coming to the heat he never lifted weights ext. He is a lot more reliable this year, with the heats trainers putting him the correct condition to play basketball. *He is also averaging more minutes this year than martin, which shows he is more reliable*


No that shows just how stupid our coach was. If you read the Nets forum, 3/4 the posters said Scott should had been fired long ago. Once again this is a team related situation. If you want to say Kidd makes his points, Scott put in poor sub patterns.

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> k mart isnt a role player, hes a star, in the same class as shard, stro etc
> a little below the level of a top level star consists the likes of matrix, monster mash, peja, baron davis and odom.


Do you want to prove your point so badly that you just listed Odom in the same boat as Peja, Baron, Marion and Mash? Well I think his "talents" are similar to Mash, but Mash has had much better seasons. Lets wait till he scores 20 over a season to put him with that group... or even make the playoffs. 

I don't think there are many Net fans that would even put Martin with that group... but putting Odom there. I don't think so right now.

Check out his career numbers on ESPN please.

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> I don't think Martin is a "creation of Kidd," but I would note that a player on a fast-breaking team is likelier to have a superior field goal percentage to a player on a half-court set team, due to the higher number of easy baskets.
> 
> Further, Kidd *does* help Martin, as any great point guard helps his teammates get easier baskets. If Odom played with Kidd, Odom would get more easy baskets. That's what makes Kidd good. If Martin *weren't* benefited by Kidd, then we'd have to say Kidd is overrated as a play-maker. That's a reality that can be accepted without going all the way to the extreme of "Martin would be nothing without Kidd."
> ...


Totally agreed. But I'd also like to think that on the Nets Odom would rebound less, and get less points or chances to score right?

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> READ!
> 
> That emotional nonsense is irrevelant...okay here is where you forgot to read the rest, WHEN CONSIDERING STATS AND NUMBERS.


Does only numbers and stats make the player? There are other intangibles right? If Odom is all you think he is why wouldn't the Jazz, or other teams with cap make an offer last year? Why won't the Clippers have matched? They matched for Maggette and Brand. There are several things that go with determining a players value.

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> 
> 
> if k mart can show me he can take those dumb 3's like lamar on a 40 something percentage then i will consider take him in a heartbeat, k mart is not so bad at them, he simply CANT make them.


www.espn.go.com

If you want to make an arguement please use some real numbers. Odom has NEVER shot 40% behind the arc ever. In fact his best year behind the arc was when he was a rookie and was not throwing them up at the rate all the years that followed. Now you suggest KMart puts up his points on the put backs right? So that means he is not camping behind the arc. Perhaps because Kittles and Kidd play on the outside? KVH before too right? There is no need for Martin to camp out there nor shot. They are PFs right? 

Now if you argue Dirk does it, that is different. Dirk is a pure shooter. He will convert the points. He is a good option behind the arc. If Odom throws them up and converts at under 30% isn't he hurting his team as their SF and C now have more responsibilities in rebounding?

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KIMCHI</b>!
> 
> 
> oh yeah, and shaq had a 100 % 3 point field goal percentage a few years back, and we should consider him to be in the 3 point contest huh ??


Hello? Do you really watch games? Shaq has made 1 3 pointer in his career. He is 1/20. He has NEVER averaged 100% in a season.

If you don't like espn; here is another site... www.sportsline.com

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> until u give odom his rebounding credit im going to keep bringing it up. Odom is a better rebounder and the best rebounder on a team that leads the league in giving up the least offensive rebounds. Martin is not better than him at it. Again, since they started playin the same position, odom has been well over him. Odom is also a better scorer who could get it done in more ways than martin


You do know that rebounds are a products of shots and the tail end of ft shooting right? Since the Heat are actually a team among the tail end in terms of fouling, players go to the line more and there are less chances for offensive rebounding. More so, the Heat shot at a .415 clip while they allow teams to put up at a .439... which help explain why they limit other teams to offensive boards. If you aren't shooting, there is no rebound to get. If you are making your shots, there are no rebounds to get.

-Petey


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> 
> 
> You do know that rebounds are a products of shots and the tail end of ft shooting right? Since the Heat are actually a team among the tail end in terms of fouling, players go to the line more and there are less chances for offensive rebounding. More so, the Heat shot at a .415 clip while they allow teams to put up at a .439... which help explain why they limit other teams to offensive boards. If you aren't shooting, there is no rebound to get. If you are making your shots, there are no rebounds to get.
> ...


still, the heat are suprisingly one of the better rebounding teams in the league( we dont get the most, but we get more than we give up, which is the important thing). Nobody thought that before the year started. Odom is a huge part.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> 
> Totally agreed. But I'd also like to think that on the Nets Odom would rebound less, and get less points or chances to score right?


Well, they have exactly the same rebounding numbers and they're taking almost exactly the same number of shots. It seems Odom would just slide in and replace Martin's production there.

If Odom were taking more shots than Martin, with the Heat, I'd definitely agree he'd get fewer chances with the Nets. But it appears to me he'd basically fill the same role Martin is, in the offense.

Rebounding is tough to say, but it doesn't seem like the Nets are a significantly better rebounding team when you factor in Udonis Haslem. If Odom can snare nearly 10 a game on the Heat, I think he could do similar things with the Nets.

Possibly not. It could be argued either way.


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## schub (Jul 13, 2003)

I have not read this whole thread, but I wanted to add this:

K-Mart gets very little points on the break. RJ and Kittles are the ones that benefit from the fast break. K-Mart is almost always the last man down the floor in transition.

I like Odom's talent, but I'd probably take K-Mart for his intensity and desire.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

Just the stats

I'm not saying this ranking is the end all be all answer, but another tool we can use to rate individual contribution.

ESPN player rater

*20.*Martin
*32.*Odom

averages vs. averages against the rest of the league.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> I don't think Martin is a "creation of Kidd," but I would note that a player on a fast-breaking team is likelier to have a superior field goal percentage to a player on a half-court set team, due to the higher number of easy baskets.
> 
> Further, Kidd *does* help Martin, as any great point guard helps his teammates get easier baskets. If Odom played with Kidd, Odom would get more easy baskets. That's what makes Kidd good. If Martin *weren't* benefited by Kidd, then we'd have to say Kidd is overrated as a play-maker. That's a reality that can be accepted without going all the way to the extreme of "Martin would be nothing without Kidd."
> ...


Definitely, that's absolutely correct, but do you think that the difference it would make would make *that* huge a difference? The Field Goal Percentage gap is enormous, 41.6%-49.8% is quite a difference. Sure Martin's would go down, and Odom's up, but would it really be that much that it would change the results here? I certainly don't think so.



> which of the following activity compose a higher degree of difficulty ?? dribble up and chuck up dumb 3's on a 40 something % or a dumb 2 handed dunk on a 80 something % ??
> who has better skills out of these two ??


Why does scoring harder points make you a better player per se? If you have the ability to consistently get easy buckets, why the hell shouldn't you? That arguement is totally pointless.



> Exactly. Latrell Sprewell and Sam Cassell are PERFECT examples of that. Playing on a good team where the focus isnt on them at all times has boosted their games.


That's definitely true as well, but there are arguements the other way too. Does anyone honestly think Larry Hughes(18.9 ppg) is a better scorer than Michael Finley(18.7 ppg), Shawn Marion(18.7 ppg), Rasheed Wallace(17.5 ppg) among many others? Is Richard Jefferson a better scorer than Steve Francis?



> come all you k mart *** kisser, read it


That certainly looks like baiting to me.



> You're right, Kidd is the reason Martin doesnt create the offense. That doesnt change the fact that Martin doesnt, and Odom does. That type of difference in roles can alter stats because the defenses strategy is focused on the Kidd/KG type player, and not the Martin/Sprewell type player. Thats why Sprewells number as a roleplayer, are BETTER on a BETTER team then when he was the leader of a bad team.


Well, you use the Kidd factor to discredit Martin, it can also work for him. If Odom was on Kidd's team, would Odom still be creating the offense. No.



> k mart's 3 point field goal percentage would have drop to a batting-average like number if he attemp as much 3 point as odom.


Haha, well the point is that Martin is smart enough not to do that, whereas Odom is not, and Odom does indeed shoot a batting-average like number(.285). Great Arguement.



> odom can give you any position from 1-4 and possibly even 5 (not really-but he probably could for a lil while)
> 
> Odom is a better shooter, KMart is stronger inside
> 
> ...


Well, you leave out almost half the game there, defense, which Martin wins in a landslide. Show me a person who takes Odom's defense over Martin, I'll show you a person that has never watched the Heat or Nets play ever.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

i agree that they are equal until you look at the Defense
and martin gets the edge
although its hard to give it to him though because odom is such a great passer

i think potentially Odom can be a top 10 player
but he never plays with a consistent jumper and gets lazy on defense

Odom potentially:
21 10 6 and great D


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>fjkdsi</b>!
> i agree that they are equal until you look at the Defense
> and martin gets the edge
> although its hard to give it to him though because odom is such a great passer
> ...


I'd say that's a fair assessment. Odom definitely has more superstar potential, but Martin is better right now, and is the safer bet. You know what you're getting with him.


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

Today's Boxscore:

martin:
6-14 shooting
13 points
12 rebounds
4 assist
1 block
0 steals
5 TO
34 minutes

odom:
5-14 shooting
18 points
14 rebounds
7 assist
1 block
0 steals
2 TO
47 minutes


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## schub (Jul 13, 2003)

The coaches have spoken.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Lamar Odom has not proven himself to be of any worth so far in the NBA. Kenyon Martin has been a key member on a back to back Eastern Conference championship team. Plus Lamar has been mostly popularize for his off the court troubles violating league substance abuse policies. You'd have to take KMart of Odom.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>schub</b>!
> The coaches have spoken.


I'm glad KMart made it, he has put together a nice season, and has shown steady improvement in his years in the league. I was hoping he would not make it as it would drive up his salary this offseason for sure.

-Petey


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm glad KMart made it, he has put together a nice season, and has shown steady improvement in his years in the league. I was hoping he would not make it as it would drive up his salary this offseason for sure.
> ...


He's definitely earned it:yes:


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>schub</b>!
> The coaches have spoken.


well the fans have voted....50-44 odom......and nobody from losing teams got voted in by the coaches...


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> well the fans have voted....50-44 odom......and nobody from losing teams got voted in byt he coaches...


Paul Pierce?


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> 
> 
> Paul Pierce?


nobody from the 11 worst teams in the league got voted in.....and Boston is a playoff team as of now


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## schub (Jul 13, 2003)

I hadn't voted yet. 50-45. 

Looking forward to tomorrow night's game now more than ever.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> nobody from the 11 worst teams in the league got voted in.....and Boston is a playoff team as of now


I was thinking "losing team" meant a team with a losing record. Silly me...


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> 
> 
> I was thinking "losing team" meant a team with a losing record. Silly me...


Speaking of "losing team", Odom has never been apart of a winning team in the NBA. I understand the team aspect of basketball, but it is not like Odom has been on talentless teams. He has played with the likes of Elton Brand, Corey Maggette, Eddie Jones, Caron Butler, etc. 

Is the fact that Odom has never played on a winning NBA team a reflection on him or simply bad luck?


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## SKiP (Jan 28, 2004)

I predict the Heat will finish this year above .500. That'll give Odom a winning team for a season. They've been playing well lately and have an easy schedule left so its very likely to happen.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> Speaking of "losing team", Odom has never been apart of a winning team in the NBA. I understand the team aspect of basketball, but it is not like Odom has been on talentless teams. He has played with the likes of Elton Brand, Corey Maggette, Eddie Jones, Caron Butler, etc.
> ...


well without counting this year, he was on the clips...You think martin would of won in LA. Not everybody is so lucky to play with the best pg in the league leading your team deep in the playoffs.....lots of players couldnt win there.....YOu cant blame the clips losing on odom just like u cant blame the hawks losing on Reef. Those are 2 horrible franchises. Have talent, but no clue what to do with them. The clips are turnin it around it seems, which is good for the nba


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> well without counting this year, he was on the clips...You think martin would of won in LA. Not everybody is so lucky to play with the best pg in the league leading your team deep in the playoffs.....lots of players couldnt win there.....YOu cant blame the clips losing on odom just like u cant blame the hawks losing on Reef. Those are 2 horrible franchises. Have talent, but no clue what to do with them. The clips are turnin it around it seems, which is good for the nba


There was still a lot of talent on the Clips though, especially last year (Miller/Q/Maggette/Odom/Brand). But i am not blaming the Clips losing soley on Odom, just asking at what role did he play in that. Likewise the Heat have a good bit of talent this year and SHOULD finish above .500 in the EC. If they don't, then that is a reflection on Odom in my opinion.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> Speaking of "losing team", Odom has never been apart of a winning team in the NBA. I understand the team aspect of basketball, but it is not like Odom has been on talentless teams. He has played with the likes of Elton Brand, Corey Maggette, Eddie Jones, Caron Butler, etc.
> ...


The first 2 years Odom was in the league he was the star. When they traded for Miller, Brand, when Magette matured as a player, Odom was on the IR. Now Miami has had alot of injuries. In his defense. 

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> well without counting this year, he was on the clips...You think martin would of won in LA. Not everybody is so lucky to play with the best pg in the league leading your team deep in the playoffs.....lots of players couldnt win there.....YOu cant blame the clips losing on odom just like u cant blame the hawks losing on Reef. Those are 2 horrible franchises. Have talent, but no clue what to do with them. The clips are turnin it around it seems, which is good for the nba


Shareef? I think you can blame him. Robinson played for a healthy chunk last year. Terry did too. They had Ratliff whom was / is a very servicable center in the East. You can't make excuses for them not winning, heck even their team promised they would make the playoffs or pay all season ticket holders, remember that? They were that confident as they had the talent.

-Petey


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> 
> 
> Shareef? I think you can blame him. Robinson played for a healthy chunk last year. Terry did too. They had Ratliff whom was / is a very servicable center in the East. You can't make excuses for them not winning, heck even their team promised they would make the playoffs or pay all season ticket holders, remember that? They were that confident as they had the talent.
> ...


they have talent. Shareef gets the job done every night. He is on of the most consistent guys on the team. Defense was their main problem that year. Robinson, Terry, and Shareef could not play together and they were hurt because of ratliff being injured a lot of that one year. Shareef was their one constant. I dont think you can blame him Hes just had the bad luck of bein drafted and than traded to horrible teams


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Petey</b>!
> 
> 
> The first 2 years Odom was in the league he was the star. When they traded for Miller, Brand, when Magette matured as a player, Odom was on the IR. Now Miami has had alot of injuries. In his defense.
> ...


Thanks for clearing that up (re: the Clips).


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## Wilt_The_Stilt (Jun 7, 2002)

I don't even think this is close. Lamar is the better player.

Kenyon is more of a hustle, high-energy player, while Lamar has a much wider variety of skills. 

And, while it is true that dominating in only a few things can make you better than being good at everything, Kenyon does not dominate enough at anything to pass Lamar. 

Kenyon is a better defender, Lamar is better at everything else.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wilt_The_Stilt</b>!
> 
> Kenyon is a better defender, Lamar is better at everything else.


Explanation/backup porfavor?


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

Kenyon is an overachiever and Odom is an underachiever...KENYON gets the nod. I don't see it as even being a topice worthy of discussion.


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

Votes:
Odom:53
Kmart:49

Lamar wins.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> they have talent. Shareef gets the job done every night. He is on of the most consistent guys on the team. Defense was their main problem that year. Robinson, Terry, and Shareef could not play together and they were hurt because of ratliff being injured a lot of that one year. Shareef was their one constant. I dont think you can blame him Hes just had the bad luck of bein drafted and than traded to horrible teams


You agree they have talent. Shareef, Robinson and Terry numberwise are more powerfull then the Nets and Pistons. So defense was that much a short coming? I think there is a bit more...

-Petey


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tom</b>!
> Kenyon is an overachiever and Odom is an underachiever...KENYON gets the nod. I don't see it as even being a topice worthy of discussion.


i dont understand how kenyon is an overcaheiver...wasnt he picked mumber one in the draft????


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## schub (Jul 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MiamiHeat03</b>!
> Votes:
> Odom:53
> Kmart:49
> ...



All-Star Roster

Kenyon wins.




> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> i dont understand how kenyon is an overcaheiver...wasnt he picked mumber one in the draft????


Yes, he was. It was a pretty weak draft, but what I think Tom is saying is that K-Mart gets the most out of his ability. He has a tremendous work ethic and plays with a lot of intensity and emotion.

I think there's a perception that Odom has a lot of talent and ability, but hasn't done enough with it. Maybe that's starting to change this year.

K-Mart was drafted #1 after 4 years of college. Odom was drafted #4 after 1 year.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>schub</b>!
> Yes, he was. It was a pretty weak draft, but what I think Tom is saying is that K-Mart gets the most out of his ability. He has a tremendous work ethic and plays with a lot of intensity and emotion.
> 
> I think there's a perception that Odom has a lot of talent and ability, but hasn't done enough with it. Maybe that's starting to change this year.
> ...


He was playing in "basketball hell" aka clip land. He was misrable. I would agree that the smart thing to do would be to play your way out of there. But its obvious his play here in Miami is ALOT different than it was in LA. He bangs the boards, dives on the floor, etc. here in Miami. Before this year, I never remember Odom hustling like that.


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

If I could only have one, I would take Odom because of his versatility.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Seems like the majority of the people voting for Martin are Nets fans and the people who just pop in who are fans of other teams think its Odom.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Seems like the majority of the people voting for Martin are Nets fans and the people who just pop in who are fans of other teams think its Odom.


I think most of the people arguing for Martin are Nets fans, but I don't know about the voting. I know the Nets forum is pretty active, but I do not think there are 49 members there.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> 
> 
> He was playing in "basketball hell" aka clip land. He was misrable. I would agree that the smart thing to do would be to play your way out of there. But its obvious his play here in Miami is ALOT different than it was in LA. He bangs the boards, dives on the floor, etc. here in Miami. Before this year, I never remember Odom hustling like that.


Let's not forget that NJ used to be consider "Clippers East" by some, but I agree that Odom is putting a lot more effort into his game this year.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>schub</b>!
> 
> Yes, he was. It was a pretty weak draft, but what I think Tom is saying is that K-Mart gets the most out of his ability. He has a tremendous work ethic and plays with a lot of intensity and emotion.
> 
> ...


do u consider a player taken overall number 1 who is a quality (not great)player "overacheiving"


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## schub (Jul 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> do u consider a player taken overall number 1 who is a quality ( not great)player "overacheiving"


Read my post again. He is overacheiving in the sense that he does more with his talent and ability than most players do with theirs.

Also, he was one of the least-hyped #1 picks of the last 10 years or so (only maybe Olowokandi had less). Odom had more hype at #4 in '99 than K-Mart had at #1 in 2000. If Odom stayed in school one more year, he probably gets picked #1 ahead of K-Mart.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MiamiHeat03</b>!
> Votes:
> Odom:53
> Kmart:49
> ...


Yeah, we all know that the fans on this board(and the trolls that know nothing about the topic) who voted on this know more than the Eastern Conference coaches that selected K-Mart over Odom.  



> Seems like the majority of the people voting for Martin are Nets fans and the people who just pop in who are fans of other teams think its Odom.


I'm not a Nets/Martin fan by any stretch of the imagination, and I'm aruging for K-Mart.


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## Rollydog (Jan 24, 2004)

Today Nets face Heat. 

I'll give you a fair take on Martin vs Odom.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Martin: 24 Points(10-16 FG) 13 Rebounds, 5 Assists, 1 Block
Odom: 27 Points(8-13 FG) 5 Rebounds, 9 Assists, 2 Blocks


This game didn't prove much, except they're both good players. Martin's team won, K-Mart dominated the offensive glass with 6 Offensive boards. I don't know about that whole, "Odom's a better rebounder now that he's playing PF", but he got worked by Martin.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> Martin: 24 Points(10-16 FG) 13 Rebounds, 5 Assists, 1 Block
> Odom: 27 Points(8-13 FG) 5 Rebounds, 9 Assists, 2 Blocks
> 
> This game didn't prove much, except they're both good players. Martin's team won, K-Mart dominated the offensive glass with 6 Offensive boards. I don't know about that whole, "Odom's a better rebounder now that he's playing PF", but he got worked by Martin.


Odom also had 4 steals. 

Martin outrebounded Odom, Odom out-everthing elsed him according to the stats. I didnt see the game though, so I dont know.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rollydog</b>!
> Today Nets face Heat.
> 
> I'll give you a fair take on Martin vs Odom.


Kenyon Martin: 34 min 10-16 FG 4-4 FT 13 reb(6 Off) 5 ast 2 blk 2 stl 24 pts(14 in 3rd)

Lamar Odom: 39 min 8-13 FG 10-12 FT 5 reb 9 ast 4 stl 1 blk 27 pts

Though the stats are similar, if you watched the game, Kenyon straight schooled Lamar. All of Lamar's scoring came in the first when he was guarded by Rogers and RJ. In the 2nd half it was Kenyon and RJ guarding him. I saw how Lamar Odom can be assertive in the 1st half, and how he can totally disappear in the 2nd half when his team needed him most. 

And since people were looking at a one game comparison, who said Lamar was the better rebounder? Kenyon almost tripled up on him.

BTW, as Mr. Bill Walton would say...Lamar Odom is hooooorrible on defense.


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## bballer27 (Aug 21, 2003)

k-mart is better


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> Martin: 24 Points(10-16 FG) 13 Rebounds, 5 Assists, 1 Block
> Odom: 27 Points(8-13 FG) 5 Rebounds, 9 Assists, 2 Blocks
> 
> ...


yea...they both played great, and kmart played a lil better 2nite...they were both in foul trouble....odom had 4 steals as well..and he is a good rebounder, just didnt do it 2nite...last time odom and 18 while kmart had 8, and this time around kmart had the rebounding advantage....


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> Martin outrebounded Odom, Odom out-everthing elsed him according to the stats. I didnt see the game though, so I dont know.


Odom outscored Kenyon in the first half. Kenyon was *****ing Lamar the whole second half though. He thoroughly outplayed him. Many of Lamars points and assists came late in the 4th when the game was put away.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> Kenyon Martin: 34 min 10-16 FG 4-4 FT 13 reb(6 Off) 5 ast 2 blk 2 stl 24 pts(14 in 3rd)
> ...


I didn't watch the game, so I can't vouch for you, but looking at the stats, the rebounding edge was obvious.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> And since people were looking at a one game comparison, who said Lamar was the better rebounder? Kenyon almost tripled up on him.


are u forgetting the 1st game.....18 to 8 odom advantage


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> yea...they both played great, and kmart played a lil better 2nite...they were both in foul trouble....odom had 4 steals as well..and he is a good rebounder, just didnt do it 2nite...last time odom and 18 while kmart had 8, and this time around kmart had the rebounding advantage....


Yep, they both played well. But Kenyon really killed Lamar in the 2nd half.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> are u forgetting the 1st game.....18 to 8 odom advantage


Thats actually exactly what I was talking about. All the Lamar supporters were looking towards that one game as proof. So why cant I look at this one game as proof?


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

And the debate begins to heat up again...


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats actually exactly what I was talking about. All the Lamar supporters were looking towards that one game as proof. So why cant I look at this one game as proof?


put both games together....odom averaged 1 more rebound per game than martin...u cant call martin a much better rebounder...about even in that..scoring about even as well. Assists in favor of odom. Steals in favor of odom....martin better in blocks....martin in shooting percentage..putting the 2 games together, they played about even


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> put both games together....odom averaged 1 more rebound per game than martin...u cant call martin a much better rebounder...about even in that..scoring about even as well. Assists in favor of odom. Steals in favor of odom....martin better in blocks....martin in shooting percentage..putting the 2 games together, they played about even


_cough_DEFENSE_cough_


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> Thats actually exactly what I was talking about. All the Lamar supporters were looking towards that one game as proof. So why cant I look at this one game as proof?


If you're referring to me, I never said that game was the only thing to look at. I said it is something to look at, and of course you can also use this game. Neither game individually, or even put together, determines who is the better player.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

Tonight's game really emphasized the difference between Martin and Odom, at least to me.

Odom is a much better SF than Martin. Odom has superior ball skills and can create off the dribble.

Martin is a much better PF than Odom. Martin is a dominating finisher, fierce rebounder when his team needs him to be, and a defensive force.

Who is better? Depends on what position you are talking about.

Who would I take on my team? Depends on what my team needs. The Nets have Jefferson at SF and Martin fills the PF role much better than Odom.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> Tonight's game really emphasized the difference between Martin and Odom, at least to me.
> 
> Odom is a much better SF than Martin. Odom has superior ball skills and can create off the dribble.
> ...


I agree. Odoms rebounding skills are excellent for a SF, combine that with his height and it makes him seem like a PF. His ballhandling, passing and shooting skills make him better fit for a full time SF who can switch over to PF for some minutes.


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## schub (Jul 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> Tonight's game really emphasized the difference between Martin and Odom, at least to me.
> 
> Odom is a much better SF than Martin. Odom has superior ball skills and can create off the dribble.
> ...


Great post. I was just writing something similar in the Nets game thread. Early in the game, we saw Odom use his quickness and length to go around K-Mart to the basket, and score from the outside. In the second half, K-Mart bullied Odom around down low, getting all his points in the low post or on offensive boards.

I would also take K-Mart on the Nets, because they use their defense to fuel the running game, and K-Mart is a huge part of that.

The great thing is, the Nets and Heat play 3 more times this year, so this thread will never die.


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## xbballplaya223x (Dec 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>schub</b>!
> 
> 
> Heat play 3 more times this year, so this thread will never die.


yep:yes:


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

This thread lives!!!

Kmart vs. Odom III

Odom played 17 foul plagued minutes he finally fouled out. He had 10 pts on 4-6 shooting, 4 rebs, 3 assists, 1 block and 1 TO. 

Kenyon had *18 pts* on 5-13 shooting but 8-13 at the line. *15 rebs*, 2 assists, and 1 steal, 3 blocks (including a key block at the end that sealed the victory) and * 7 TO's* he also fouled out but played 39 minutes.

The refs really called a lot of fouls 62 of them in all. Nets went to the line 49 times (RJ went 15-19) and the Heat went to the line only 28 times.

Martin wins this battle.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> This thread lives!!!
> 
> Kmart vs. Odom III
> ...


Martin started off poorly but really turned it on at the end. He had this nice defensive play where he blocked-caught Wade's shot. Although Martin didn't get his numbers vs. Odom, more so they were against Grant and his backup.

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

It's interesting too, that Martin has almost caught up, there was a point where Odom was well ahead.

-Petey


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

Odom only played 17 mins in the game, in constant foul trbouel...for 17 mins in, he did pretty good....but martin certainly outplayed him in the game


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Martin named Eastern Conference Player of the Month 



> Kenyon Martin took Eastern Conference honors after averaging 18.5 points, 10.7 rebounds, 2.8 assists and 1.62 blocks per game while leading the New Jersey Nets to an NBA-best 11-2 mark during the month. He scored a season-high 29 points against the Philadelphia 76ers and is averaging career highs of 17.8 points, 9.9 rebounds and 1.45 steals per game for the season.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MiamiHeat03</b>!
> Votes:
> Odom:53
> Kmart:49
> ...


Check again buddy, 60-56 K-Mart.


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## Rollydog (Jan 24, 2004)

Martin brings so many intangibles to the game... He's better than his stats indicate... And his stats aren't too shabby.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> 
> 
> Check again buddy, 60-56 K-Mart.


Wow Lamar was up by 2 just 2 days ago.

-Petey


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## junh (May 23, 2003)

After witnessing Odom's triple double performance with the Heat: 30 pts - 19 rebs - 11 asts, I have to give my vote to Odom since he is so versatile, he can dominate in a lot of different situations.

Though Kenyon Martin is a better defender and rebounder than Odom, this is only due to KMart's superior athleticism. Odom can affect the game in so many ways that I would rather have Odom anytime. :yes:


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

KMart will never have a triple double like Lamar did yesterday

they have different games---Lamar can do so much more on the offensive end-just like Kmart can do more on D.

Lamar isn't a punk on D though, thats why i'd pick Lamar over KMart


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

KMart is not the play maker on the team. Even with Kidd out, the Nets are using RJ, and Kittles as their play makers.

And how does Martin play D like a punk?

-Petey


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

thats not how i meant it


Lamar is alot better offensively, KMart is better defensively, but Lamar still isnt bad on D

thats why Lamar is better


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> KMart will never have a triple double like Lamar did yesterday
> 
> they have different games---Lamar can do so much more on the offensive end-just like Kmart can do more on D.
> ...


K-Mart was only 3 Assists shy of a triple-double today, to go along with his 17 points and 20 boards, despite shooting the ball horribly all day.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> thats not how i meant it
> 
> 
> ...


So then that would mean you're implying that K-Mart _is_ bad offensively, or else you wouldn't say Odom is better. So you're saying that the gap between Odom and K-Mart's defense is smaller than that between their offense, yet you're claiming Odom's offense is that much better despite him averaging less points per game on a worse team. I just can't see your logic there.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

KMart can't do close to as many things on the offensive end as Lamar can.....

I don't even think you can argue that...


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> KMart can't do close to as many things on the offensive end as Lamar can.....
> 
> I don't even think you can argue that...


So? He still scores more on a better team. My point is that the gap on the offensive end between the two players isn't even CLOSE to the gap on the defensive end, where K-Mart is lightyears ahead of Odom.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rukahS capuT</b>!
> 
> 
> So? He still scores more on a better team. My point is that the gap on the offensive end between the two players isn't even CLOSE to the gap on the defensive end, where K-Mart is lightyears ahead of Odom.


i dont think kmart is lightyears ahead of him. How much do u get to see lamar play? He has gotten a lot better on defense since coming to miami. Of course Kenyon is better than him there, but lightyears ahead is not true


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> i dont think kmart is lightyears ahead of him. How much do u get to see lamar play? He has gotten a lot better on defense since coming to miami. Of course Kenyon is better than him there, but lightyears ahead is not true


I live in Florida, I can see all the Heat games on local TV, I just don't choose to watch them all because I'm not a fan of the Heat, but I've seen a lot of Odom this year. If we're talking defending PF's, yes, K-Mart is lightyears ahead of Odom. Overall defense, K-Mart may not be lightyears ahead of Odom, but he's still *a lot* better.


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> i dont think kmart is lightyears ahead of him. How much do u get to see lamar play? He has gotten a lot better on defense since coming to miami. Of course Kenyon is better than him there, but lightyears ahead is not true


Personally, Kmart IS light years ahead of Odom defensively. Kmart is such a beast on defense...we all know about his post defense and help defense, but his perimeter defense is very good as well.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

Is kenyon out? I was looking forward to this matchup again.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> Is kenyon out? I was looking forward to this matchup again.


KMart is out from the Bulls game.

-Petey


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Bump

Both have been eliminated from the playoffs, after watching what they did in the postseason, are there any new opinions out there? Anyone's mind been changed?


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

lamar odom is much better.


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

Kenyon Martin wasn't terrible in the playoffs, and Lamar Odom wasn't great. I take Martin now, Odom for the future.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> Bump
> 
> Both have been eliminated from the playoffs, after watching what they did in the postseason, are there any new opinions out there? Anyone's mind been changed?


well Odom ended the season with more points, rebounds, and assits. He led in all 3 major categories. :yes: . When this discussion started, Martin had a slight lead in points, and rebounds were tied. 

The both played alright in the postseason. I still think Odom is and is going to be more valuable. Martin is deifntly the better inside presense, but I feel Odom is a better all around player


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## Rollydog (Jan 24, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> well Odom ended the season with more points, rebounds, and assits. He led in all 3 major categories. :yes: . When this discussion started, Martin had a slight lead in points, and rebounds were tied.
> ...


If Martin had played more than 20 mpg in the last month of the season (when the Nets had locked up the Atlantic) along with all the rest of the startes, his numbers would be around 18/10. He put up 19/11 in the playoffs and 17/10 on close to 50% shooting against Detroit. Ranked #7 in efficiency in the playoffs... Odom was down at #24.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Odom is also a few years younger I believe


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> Odom is also a few years younger I believe


Odom is a little less than two years younger than K-Mart. Odom is 24, Martin is 26.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rollydog</b>!
> 
> 
> If Martin had played more than 20 mpg in the last month of the season (when the Nets had locked up the Atlantic) along with all the rest of the startes, his numbers would be around 18/10. He put up 19/11 in the playoffs and 17/10 on close to 50% shooting against Detroit. Ranked #7 in efficiency in the playoffs... *Odom was down at #24*.


alright. Odom led in efficiency for the season, and 82 games are more telling than 13 games. 

also, how could u ignore how the stats turned out for the year

Odom
17.1 ppg > 16.7 ppg
9.7 rpg > 9.5 rpg
4.1 apg > 2.5 apg
20.43 eff > 20.28 eff. 

Efficiency over a entire season is more telling than efficiency over 13 games, no matter what excuse u use


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## BlazerFanFoLife (Jul 17, 2003)

odom... he can just do more, post up play ok d, steal, create for himself, shoot off screens... He also puts in more effort day to day


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## Rollydog (Jan 24, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> alright. Odom led in efficiency for the season, and 82 games are more telling than 13 games.
> ...


As I said, Martin's reg season stats are artificially low because the Nets had nothing to play for in the last month of the season, and therefore he did not play much... nor have much to play for. Because of that, the validity of the statistics are lessened. Instead of this, why don't we look through all the months of the season except for April and March... (kenyon was injured most of March). 

Odom's best month... 18/10/4 on 40% FGs. 1.3 spg, 1 bpg
Martin's best month... 19/11/3 on 49% FGs. 1.2 spg, 1.6 blocks

PS
And despite averaging just 11 ppg and 25 mpg the last two months of the season Martin still finishes just .15 eff points behind Odom.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> alright. Odom led in efficiency for the season, and 82 games are more telling than 13 games.
> ...


Oh, so now the stats mean something. Back when K-Mart was leading in Points, Rebounds and Efficiency you still thought Lamar was better. You can't have it both ways. You can't just use stats when they're convienient for your argument, and say they don't mean anything when they're not. Martin still had far superior per/48 minutes, which do mean a lot in this case since both played quite a significant amount of time. 

Per 48:
Martin- 23.1 ppg, 13.2 rpg, 3.4 apg, 2.02 spg, 1.7 bpg, 3.6 tpg, 48.8% FG
Odom- 21.9 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.36 spg, 1.1 bpg, 3.8 tpg, 43.0% FG

This, with Martin's numbers taking a serious hit because of his injuries and physical condition. Martin's efficiency was still 28.09 per 48 minutes, 16th in the league, while Odom's was 26.12, tied for 29th in the league.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> per/48 minutes


per 48 means absolutely nothing to me. Ive said that so many times in the last couple days. Just cant stand the stat, and imo it shows nothing valuable. 

Lets go back to what I said before
1. Odom is a better rebounder. More per game, even though he played sf and got a lot less the first month of the season because of it. Since his move to pf, hes been gettin around 10 a game, more than Martin got when healthy
2. Better playmaker, obviously
3. Has more ways to score. Martin relies a lot on althleticism. How will he do when he gets older. Odom has the skills to still get it done even when his body gets older. Theres a reason he's called " The Goods"

Minutes per game and injuries. You talk about double standards, and u use this as an excuse. I remember one of the main downsides on Odom before this year were injuries. People were saying since he was injury prone, he was not as valuable. So now that he stayed healthy the entire year, you are using it against him in a arguement ? So accoding to how most thought beofe this year, woudnt Martins injures be a negative, and not used as a way to justify Odom getting * superior *stats. 

And before they were tied in rebounds. I did say Odom was a better rebounder, and I said stats didnt prove anything before with rebounds because Odom was getting a lot more than him at pf, and if he played there all year he would be ahead of Martin. I ended up being right. I *never* said stats mean nothing, just in this one arguement that rebounds meant nothing. But I will say *per 48 means absolutely nothing*, at least imo. If a player gets in foul trouble or nic nac injury problems, its part of the game. Players should only get stats on what they play. And Odom leads in all major categories. 

As I said before, Martin is defintly a better * inside presence and defender*, but Odom is a more complete player.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> per 48 means absolutely nothing to me. Ive said that so many times in the last couple days. Just cant stand the stat, and imo it shows nothing valuable.


That's true when you are expanding a bench players stats to 48 minutes. Often times you see a PG with an outrageous assists per 48, or a PF with an outrageous rebounds per 48.

But the per 48 stat is somewhat useful when you are comparing starters who have very similiar stats, especially when one or both have been injured recently.


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## Rollydog (Jan 24, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>wadecaroneddie</b>!
> 
> 
> Minutes per game and injuries. You talk about double standards, and u use this as an excuse. I remember one of the main downsides on Odom before this year were injuries. People were saying since he was injury prone, he was not as valuable. So now that he stayed healthy the entire year, you are using it against him in a arguement ? So accoding to how most thought beofe this year, woudnt Martins injures be a negative, and not used as a way to justify Odom getting * superior *stats.


MARTIN'S STATS WERE LOWERED NOT BECAUSE OF INJURIES BUT BECAUSE THE NETS PLAYED HALF-*** FOR THE LAST MONTH OF THE SEASON. WHY? BECAUSE THEY HAD LOCKED UP SECOND SEED! 

Injuries I admit, are not the best excuse. Martin's 26 years old. He's young and he works to stay in shape. Jordan still had his athletism when he was 33, 34. As long as Martin keeps woking, his skill increase will negate his slight athletic decrease. Injuries are another matter but Martin is no more injury prone then Odom. Kenyon is a pretty good passer for a big man though, averaging 2.5 assists which puts him in the top 5 among PFs. Martin is a better rebounder than Odom though... he's far more tenacious and strong on the boards. You can see that from watching the games. You have to remember that Martin runs the floor A LOT and gaurds the perimeter a lot too because he's often switched up onto guards or SFs.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> That's true when you are expanding a bench players stats to 48 minutes. Often times you see a PG with an outrageous assists per 48, or a PF with an outrageous rebounds per 48.
> ...


Exactly, we're not comparing him to someone who plays 10 minutes per game and gets their stats with all the scrubs on the court in meaningless time when the game's outcome is determined. We're talking about two big time players who log over 30 minutes a night. To suggest that those extra minutes that Odom played this season have no effect on their statistical comparisons that wadecaroneddie used is just close-minded and irrational.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

I pick Odom, because he has more offensive versatility AND talent.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

I agree, per 48 means nothing. If a player only gets 20mpg and your all bragging about his per 48 stats its not very helpful, if he were actually any good he'd get more minutes. Its not what he *could* do but what he *can* in whatever time he's allocated


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

Did any of you guys read that guy who used per 40 minute stats? They were pretty accurate, he predicted that Redd, Randolph and other stars who had break out seasons to er.. "break out".


----------



## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

EDIT: double post


----------



## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly, we're not comparing him to someone who plays 10 minutes per game and gets their stats with all the scrubs on the court in meaningless time when the game's outcome is determined. We're talking about two big time players who log over 30 minutes a night. To suggest that those extra minutes that Odom played this season have no effect on their statistical comparisons that wadecaroneddie used is just close-minded and irrational.


if you read my post before, I explained why



> But I will say per 48 means absolutely nothing, at least imo. If a player gets in foul trouble or nic nac injury problems, its part of the game. Players should only get stats on what they play. And Odom leads in all major categories.


If a player gets in foul trouble, and therefore plays a couple less minutes a game (which may or may not be the case with Martin), that should be a negative for the player, not a positive because he may of done a little better with the smaller amount of time he was on the court. The 2 extra minutes per game Odom has on Martin may be becuase of something Martin does not do well, because even beofore the end of the year, Odom had more minutes. 



> Martin is a better rebounder than Odom though...


No way. Even before the monstrous decrease in minutes Martin had, they were tied. That was with Odom playing sf the first month of the season. Since they started playing the same position, Odom has averaged a good amount more than him, and passed him for rebounds on the season. Pretty good for a sf who some people said would never make it as a pf when we signed him. Rebounds are defintly in Odom's favor

anyway, I am done with this arguement. You all know my opinion, and theres no point in repeating it. So if u quote me and expect a response, its not happening


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## BrYaNBaIlEy06 (Jul 15, 2003)

Martin


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

I don't know where you guys got "the Nets slacked the whole last month of the season"

They finished 5 games ahead of the Heat for the division crown. Now last time I checked you play more than 5 games in a month. The Heat were close enough to take the division with about 2 weeks left in the season, so throw out your bull**** comments to make Martin look better b/c "The Nets had nothing to play for..."


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> I don't know where you guys got "the Nets slacked the whole last month of the season"
> 
> They finished 5 games ahead of the Heat for the division crown. Now last time I checked you play more than 5 games in a month. The Heat were close enough to take the division with about 2 weeks left in the season, so throw out your bull**** comments to make Martin look better b/c "The Nets had nothing to play for..."


The Heat finished 5 games back *after* the Nets lost a bunch of games in the last month (partly due to resting players), while the Heat went on a run during the same stretch. It was not like the Heat were 5 games back the entire last month and were in striking distance. The Heat, or any other team in the Atlantic, never had a real shot at catching the Nets.


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> I agree, per 48 means nothing. If a player only gets 20mpg and your all bragging about his per 48 stats its not very helpful, if he were actually any good he'd get more minutes. Its not what he *could* do but what he *can* in whatever time he's allocated


Like I said, per 48 is a poor tool for comparing players who get very little minutes. It does have some value when looking at starters.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

I can't believe this thread is this close.

There isn't a thing Martin can do that odom can't. The reverse does not hold true in this case.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> I can't believe this thread is this close.
> 
> There isn't a thing Martin can do that odom can't. The reverse does not hold true in this case.


:no:


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> :no:


:yes:


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> :yes:


So you honestly think Martin and Odom are on the same level defensively?


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> So you honestly think Martin and Odom are on the same level defensively?


Kenyone Martin is slightly better, on smaller players, but Odom can cover a larger range of positions. I think that balances out their defense as equal.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Kenyone Martin is *slightly better*, on smaller players, but *Odom can cover a larger range of positions*. I think that balances out their defense as equal.


Your crazy.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Odom gives alot more overall than KMart


KMart is a great player but Odom can be just as good if not better


To be honest, it's basically a tie, but if I had to pick, I'd take Odom.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> Your crazy.


You're delusional.


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> You're delusional.


Maybe, but I am sane enough to know Martin is the better defender.

I think you just don't like KMart. :yes:


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> Maybe, but I am sane enough to know Martin is the better defender.
> ...


I don't like Kmart, but I am unbiased enough to know that Martin is not a good post defender.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't like Kmart, but I am unbiased enough to know that Martin is not a good post defender.


You're 2 months late. April Fools has already passed.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> You're 2 months late. April Fools has already passed.


Now tell the one that doesn't suck.


----------



## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> Now tell the one that doesn't suck.


Sentences are used to express thoughts. If the thoughts in your head are so incoherent and non-sensical as that sentence, I would never want to be trapped in that bottomless pit of emptiness.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

> I don't like Kmart, but I am unbiased enough to know that Martin is not a good post defender.


EDIT: Kmart has been the lone post presence for the Nets all year, and if he wasn't good at it, they wouldn't have gotten as far as they did.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> ]If the thoughts in your head are so incoherent and non-sensical as that sentence, I would never want to be trapped in that bottomless pit of emptiness.


When you get out of highschool you'll truly be able to appreciate the irony of this sentence. You really owned grammar right there; it reads well.

Honestly I've seen second graders write more cogent sentences extolling the virtues of Pikachu.

Now stop with the personal attacks and defend your weak argument. You're acting like a child that missed his nap.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>dre1218us</b>!
> 
> 
> Some people are just *******s. For no reason.


EDIT: 

That's one of the big reasons the not only lost in the semi-finals, but why they're record against the West was so poor.


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't like Kmart, but I am unbiased enough to know that Martin is not a good post defender.


Then why does Jermaine O'Neal have such a hard time playing against KMart?

You just don't like KMart.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> Then why does Jermaine O'Neal have such a hard time playing against KMart?
> ...


JO is severly overated IMO. It's not that I don't like Kmart, other than make fun of Zo's kidney ailment he hasn't done much to make me feel anything about him.

I just don't respect his game all that much.

He scores well on a post game against weak post players. 

Guys like PJ Brown or Even Antoine Walker used to get the better of him. 

Furthermore, He only got to JO once this season. The other two times JO shot 50% or more.


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## Baron Davis (Apr 14, 2004)

Kenyon Martin is garbage. He gets points from fast breaking. He is garbage at ball handling. There is a fine line between athleticism and skill, and Odom has tons more skills than Martin, while Martin only has athleticism. 

Martin can't create his own shot, if you call dunking a "shot", then you should just quit watching basketball or playing basketball. Why are you people saying Martin has such good post moves? Hell no, his post moves are garbage. Don't tell me I haven't watched him play, I have YES Network and I always watch crappy Nets games. Wow he can post up, drop step, and what do you know, a dunk. Shows how much skills he has. 

Look at Jermaine O'Neal and KG's post moves, excellent footwork and body control with good elevation on the jumpshot or fadeaway. The only reason that Martin has such a higher FG percentage is because all he does is dunks and layups, mainly on fastbreak or by slashing to the basket.

Martin a good defender? What happened in 2003 Finals? Foul trouble almost every game, couldn't stop TD, what a great defender he is. 

What's with this crap about Odom chucking up 3's? He has a good stroke but probably doesn't practice shooting 3's enough. 

I bet half of the people on this board can't shoot with correct form. 

Back on topic, Odom is an excellent ball handler and has the ability to create his own shot off the dribble or use dribble penetration to create a shot. He's also a better freethrow shooter, which can affect the game down the stretch. 

To the people who think Martin is good without Kidd, I'll believe it when I see it. Martin can't lead a team by himself.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Baron Davis</b>!
> Kenyon Martin is garbage. He gets points from fast breaking. He is garbage at ball handling. There is a fine line between athleticism and skill, and Odom has tons more skills than Martin, while Martin only has athleticism.
> 
> Martin can't create his own shot, if you call dunking a "shot", then you should just quit watching basketball or playing basketball. Why are you people saying Martin has such good post moves? Hell no, his post moves are garbage. Don't tell me I haven't watched him play, I have YES Network and I always watch crappy Nets games. Wow he can post up, drop step, and what do you know, a dunk. Shows how much skills he has.
> ...


Somehow I don't believe you. Why would you watch every Net game if they're all so crappy? And why would you say Kenyon gets all his points off fastbreaks when he is barely ever on the fast break?

Oh, I know. Because you don't watch them.

I can't believe someone is criticizing a player for taking the best shot in the game. Would you rather Kenyon free himself up for the dunk, but then drop back and shoot a 8 foot fadeaway? God forbid he try to score them most secure way. Well, since you watch every crappy Nets game, you should realize that Kenyon does not get all his points on dunks. Maybe that's all you see when you watch Sports Center, not YES. Kenyon has developed a very servicable mini hook and he is superb at rising above his defender towards the basket and lofting it in. His jump shot has developed nicely over the season as well. Kenyon isn't getting all his points, contrary to what you believe, on dunks and layups.

Your Duncan comment was pretty funny. You came off pretty much saying that Duncan was not a worthy offensive player. Kenyon can't guard Duncan? He must be a horrible defender. News flash buddy. NO ONE can guard Duncan. There is a reason he won back to back MVP's. Kenyon actually guarded Duncan the best 1 on 1 in the playoffs, because the Nets did not double(because of Scott's stupidity) like every other team did. Kenyon Martin is one of the best defenders in the league. Don't even try denying that.

Also, I might be wrong, but this is a Kenyon Martin/Lamar Odom comparison, not a Kenyon Martin/Jermaine O'Neal and KG comparison. So, why even bring them into the conversation.

Lamar is a very talented player, and the matchup is very close, but I will take Kenyon because of his defensive superiority, bigger heart, and greater intensity.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Baron Davis</b>!
> Kenyon Martin is garbage. He gets points from fast breaking. He is garbage at ball handling.


If you watched the Nets, you would know the majority of their fastbreak points go to either Richard Jefferson or Kerry Kittles. Martin has not had a large role in the transition game since 2002.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> Somehow I don't believe you. Why would you watch every Net game if they're all so crappy? And why would you say Kenyon gets all his points off fastbreaks when he is barely ever on the fast break?
> ...


Why did you even bother responding to such a misinformed, stupid post as that? I just read his post, laughed and said to myself, has this guy ever watched the Nets play?


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## xbballplaya223x (Dec 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Baron Davis</b>!
> Kenyon Martin is garbage. He gets points from fast breaking. He is garbage at ball handling. There is a fine line between athleticism and skill, and Odom has tons more skills than Martin, while Martin only has athleticism.
> 
> Martin can't create his own shot, if you call dunking a "shot", then you should just quit watching basketball or playing basketball. Why are you people saying Martin has such good post moves? Hell no, his post moves are garbage. Don't tell me I haven't watched him play, I have YES Network and I always watch crappy Nets games. Wow he can post up, drop step, and what do you know, a dunk. Shows how much skills he has.
> ...


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

Hopefully, I can put a rest to all this bs. 

Kenyon Martin...

1. Doesn't get all his points off fastbreaks, but is aided by having Kidd running the point. 

2. He is good in the low post and has added a nice jumper, but isn't necessarily a low post threat. Doesn't have too much offensive versality. 

3. Great rebounder, ferocious on the boards at times. 

4. Good defender. Great on the weakside, decent one on one. Certainly a defensive presence but is sometimes overrated, in my opinion. 

5. Intense but childish. After the shot he took at Zo, I really began to question his intensity. He struts around the court trying to bully everyone around but for what purpose? He needs to start putting some of that energy towards winning a championship. He talks a lot but in the scope of the team, he doesn't back it up. Just wasn't a difference maker in the playoffs this year. That said, he one of the toughest competitors in the league. He just needs to grow up some. 


Lamar Odom...

1. One of the more rare talents in the league. A guy 6-10 should not be able to do the things he can, which include: run the point, at least in terms of getting the offense in a set and distributing the ball; take people off the dribble; shoot the three (albeit at a pretty low percentage, but he can at least hit the three). 

2. His shooting isn't that great. He really doesn't settle for jumpers too much but he needs to improve his midrange shot. 
That said, he can still hit it. 

3. His rebounding is much improved. Watching this guy hit the boards in the playoffs was impressive. He has really become aggressive on the boards. 

4. His defense is pretty awful, at times. Obviously, he isn't strong enough to match up well against some of the bigger power forwards but his effort and weakside defense just aren't always there. 

5. He really matured this year. Fact is, this fool can straight up ball and he made a strong committment last offseason. He flew out to Miami right away and committed himself to getting in shape. He was healthy this year and really became the court leader for the Heat. If this guy puts it all together, he has top 10 potential. He's a matchup nightmare. 


So who is better? In my opinion, it's Odom. His offensive game is much more developed and he rebounds just as good as Kenyon. The defensive edge obviously goes to Kenyon, as does the post game, but Odom can still post up and play anywhere else to boot. Both of these players have had maturity issues but from what I see, Odom is maturing. Kenyon has calmed his emotions on the court some (at least insofar as getting technicals) but his tangle with Zo and overall childishness seem to receive too much of his attention. Overall, Kenyon is a very intense, sometimes childish defensive presence who will hit the boards hard, fast break, and provide some scoring in the post. Obviously, one of the better power forwards in the league. Odom, on the other hand, is a versatile 6'10 power forward with the ability to drive, pass, shoot, and rebound. His defensive is below average at times though and will have to improve eventually. But between a guy like Kenyon and a rare talent like Odom who looks like he's putting it all together, I just gotta take Odom. Kenyon is a good player in his own right but talents like Odom don't come along often.


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## Baron Davis (Apr 14, 2004)

> Also, I might be wrong, but this is a Kenyon Martin/Lamar Odom comparison, not a Kenyon Martin/Jermaine O'Neal and KG comparison. So, why even bring them into the conversation.


Because of this 



> Then why does Jermaine O'Neal have such a hard time playing against KMart?





> I can't believe someone is criticizing a player for taking the best shot in the game. Would you rather Kenyon free himself up for the dunk, but then drop back and shoot a 8 foot fadeaway? God forbid he try to score them most secure way. Well, since you watch every crappy Nets game, you should realize that Kenyon does not get all his points on dunks. Maybe that's all you see when you watch Sports Center, not YES. Kenyon has developed a very servicable mini hook and he is superb at rising above his defender towards the basket and lofting it in. His jump shot has developed nicely over the season as well. Kenyon isn't getting all his points, contrary to what you believe, on dunks and layups.


If Kenyon has a wide open lane, then yes dunking is good but trying to dunk most of the time? Yea ok. I rather have Kenyon drop back and shoot an 8 foot fadeaway, takes much more skills than a dunk since you're shooting while going down instead of up. I watch YES, and I know I may have exaggerated about Martin getting all his points from dunking and layups, but that's what he mostly does. His jump hook is luck and inconsistent, I've watched so many times. Thats why Nets struggle in half court offense so much. He barely takes jumpshots, and like others have said, people don't respect his jumper and hes usually wide open, which is why you claim he has developed a nice jumpshot, but really he has just been getting open looks because hes not a threat from the perimeter.



> Well, since you watch every crappy Nets game, you should realize that Kenyon does not get all his points on dunks. Maybe that's all you see when you watch Sports Center, not YES.


hmm well the only thing Sports Center shows for basketball are highlight dunks most of the time, which isn't really skillful, just using athleticism. They should show a nice stroke getting a swish, much more skills than any dunk, which Martin doesn't have.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Baron Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Because of this
> ...


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## RunToFreeForFly (Jul 16, 2003)

Hello everyone, I am the one, why compare ODom and Konmartin when they are not comparable?


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> JO is severly overated IMO. *It's not that I don't like Kmart, other than make fun of Zo's kidney ailment he hasn't done much to make me feel anything about him.*


If anyone on this board should dislike Kmart over making fun of Zo's kidney ailment, it should be me. Yes, it was a dumbass statement by KMart but that's not a reason to dislike him after 6 months pass. 

Zo has forgiven him. Zo says nothing but good things about KMart and really respects the guy. KMart called Zo the Nets good luck charm and begged him (along with his teammates) to travel with the Nets in the playoffs. 

If those guys can move past it, why wouldn't you?


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> If you watched the Nets, you would know the majority of their fastbreak points go to either Richard Jefferson or Kerry Kittles. Martin has not had a large role in the transition game since 2002.


I wouldn't say KMart doesn't have a large role in the transition game now...

You are right that Kidd usually is running with Kittles and RJ, but how do you start a break 80% of the time???

Defensive Rebounds


And who gets alot of those boards? Kenyon Martin.

If you don't get the board, you don't start the break.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say KMart doesn't have a large role in the transition game now...
> ...


Very true, but he was speaking towards the topic of Kenyon scoring points on the fastbreak. Kenyon is a major part of the Nets fastbreak, pulling down rebounds and forcing turnovers, but he is not a part of the scoring side of it.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> 
> 
> I wouldn't say KMart doesn't have a large role in the transition game now...
> ...


My fault for not being more clear. I was talking about Martin scoring in the transition game. You are correct in that Martin has taken a larger role in getting defensive boards to start the break.

And let me just say, both of these guys are very good players. I don't get why one guy has to be bad for the other to be good (I'm not talking about you CB, but just the general feel of some of these posts).


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> 
> 
> If anyone on this board should dislike Kmart over making fun of Zo's kidney ailment, it should be me. Yes, it was a dumbass statement by KMart but that's not a reason to dislike him after 6 months pass.
> ...


Read it again. Then read it again. If his treatment of Zo didn't do anything for me liking him, then why would I feel anything for him? Did you assume that because I don't like him that I hate him?

Read the post once more. Notice I say his game is what I don't like, I could care less about him as a person.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> Read the post once more. Notice I say his game is what I don't like, I could care less about him as a person.


It's just my take, but part of the reason you don't like him is because of the team YOU like and team Martin plays for.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> It's just my take, but part of the reason you don't like him is because of the team YOU like and team Martin plays for.


Your take couldn't be more off. The Net's Knicks Rivalry is something dreamed by the media, I've disliked Kmart's game long before Isiah came town, it's in my posts.

To me the nets are as fierce a rival as the Generals.


Nobody I know cares about this ridiculous rivalry it doesen't exist, it's just a way for fat greedy drunk dolan to line his pockets. No thanks don't believe it don't want any part of it.

I don't buy into media hype, I just don't like guys that have one dimensional skill, and can't dominate 

I don't like watching him play. Bottom line.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

It has nothing to do with "media hype" and everything to do with the stepchild (Nets) out performing the biological son (Knicks). I know how important the Knicks are to NY and how bitter it makes a lot of their fans (maybe not you, but a lot of my friends in NYC) to see the Nets win while the Knicks struggle. 

Maybe I am reading you wrong, but you seem to have a lot of displaced dislike for Martin for no reason. If you don't like him because...



> I just don't like guys that have one dimensional skill, and can't dominate


...watching the Knicks must really frustrate you.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> It has nothing to do with "media hype" and everything to do with the stepchild (Nets) out performing the biological son (Knicks). I know how important the Knicks are to NY and how bitter it makes a lot of their fans (maybe not you, but a lot of my friends in NYC) to see the Nets win while the Knicks struggle.
> 
> Maybe I am reading you wrong, but you seem to have a lot of displaced dislike for Martin for no reason. If you don't like him because...
> ...


Care to elaborate and be proved wrong or do you just want to keep it vague and be safe?

The only players on the Knicks that are good at anything, either dominate in that skill or have a lot of other things going for them.


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

If you're a Knicks fan, why do you like Zo?


Are you atleast 5 years old or have you watched basketball longer than the past 5 years?


----------



## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> Care to elaborate and be proved wrong or do you just want to keep it vague and be safe?
> ...


Man, you're a funny one. You actually think players on the Knicks dominate! Are you talking about their complete domination of the loss column? :laugh:


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> Care to elaborate and be proved wrong or do you just want to keep it vague and be safe?


Proved wrong about what? That there is a lot of resentment towards the Nets in the NYC area?

Or that you have a lot of resentment towards Martin?



> The only players on the Knicks that are good at anything, either dominate in that skill or have a lot of other things going for them.


Those skills showed in the Nets/Knicks series.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> If you're a Knicks fan, why do you like Zo?
> 
> 
> Are you atleast 5 years old or have you watched basketball longer than the past 5 years?


Yeah I'm 5.

How the **** are you moderator going around insulting people like that. You're the one acting like a 5 year old with your infantile reading comprehension

Where did you read that I liked Zo?


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> Proved wrong about what? That there is a lot of resentment towards the Nets in the NYC area?
> ...


Proved wrong about the only players on the Knicks who have skill don't dominate in it.

I don't know why you think I resent martin, it's kinda silly, I think you net fans really do want him to be a bad guy or at least garner some respect in that sense, but that fact is he's just to goofy.

Resent martin for what??? Haha! That's funny like Martin ever did anything to me.

Steph looked awesome in the game against the Nets. If houston was there he would have looked great too.

Everyone else played up to their level.


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Proved wrong about the only players on the Knicks who have skill don't dominate in it.


Well Martin averaged 23.3 ppg and 14 rpg against the Knicks in the playoffs.

Who were those dominate Knicks players again?



> I don't know why you think I resent martin, it's kinda silly, I think you net fans really do want him to be a bad guy or at least garner some respect in that sense, but that fact is he's just to goofy.


When did I mention Martin being a "bad guy"?

It's just my opinion, but you just seem to dislike him.



> Resent martin for what??? Haha! That's funny like Martin ever did anything to me.


Resenement: a feeling of indignant displeasure or persistent ill will at something regarded as a wrong.

Does that not describe your feelings towards the opinion that Martin is a pretty good basketball player?

I think that is clear, even to the Heat/Odom fans reading this thread.



> Steph looked awesome in the game against the Nets.


I can't tell if you are young or are just messing with me. 

I think everyone who watched the Nets/Knicks series, including Knicks fans, realizes Marbury had a pretty poor series.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> Man, you're a funny one. You actually think players on the Knicks dominate! Are you talking about their complete domination of the loss column? :laugh:


Stephon Marbury is a top 3 point guard in this league, Allan Houston when healthy is the best pure shooter.

Looks like you're wrong yet again. Stick to personal attacks. You fail at those a lot less.


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Again as I stated earlier the only good knicks are stephon marbury and Allan houston, the rest are crap


I'm sure you are aware of this, but both Martin and Marbury have a career playoff average of 19 ppg. :yes: 



> Actually
> 
> 1.Indignation or ill will felt as a result of a real or imagined grievance
> 
> ...


I took the definition of resentment right from Merrian-Webster Online.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=resentment

Why would I think that you have resentment towards Martin? 

Because to say Odom is better than Martin is fine...matter of opinion, but to go to the length you have to dog Martin (an "OK" defender) is silly.


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> Stephon Marbury is a top 3 point guard in this league, Allan Houston when healthy is the best pure shooter.
> ...


Neither of those players dominate. I really hate to burst your bubble. Marbury really dominated the series, right? He really dominated missing crucial FT's and bring his team's morale down. He dominates that! Houston was dominating all series long on the bench. He is the best at wearing a basketball uniform when everyones knews he is not going to play. He dominates that!


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> Neither of those players dominate. I really hate to burst your bubble. Marbury really dominated Kidd, right? Houston was dominating all series long on the bench. He is the best at wearing a basketball uniform when he is not going to play. He dominates that!


My god you suck at reading.

Did I ever say they dominated the nets?

Are you really that dumb? Did you honestly read my poststhink that's what I wrote?


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm sure you are aware of this, but both Martin and Marbury have a career playoff average of 19 ppg. :yes:
> ...



And I took mine from the Oxford English Dictionary.

Are you aware that both Marbury and Martin play different positions and roles?

Notice I am not the only one to say martin is an okay defender, the only thing silly is your zealtous defense of him.

Somehow you think I have feelings about Martin that just don't exist. You tried naming all kinds of silly reasons which I've refuted and you still persist in going back to them.

Perhaps a visual aid will help you.

Let's say I am scrooge


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## jmk (Jun 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> My god you suck at reading.
> ...


It really is funny how everyone but you reads your posts wrong. Every sngle response in this thread has been "Are you dumb? Can you read? You read my post wrong." Maybe you don't even know what you're typing anymore.



> The only players on the Knicks that are good at anything, either dominate in that skill or have a lot of other things going for them.


Well, if they dominate in that skill, why wouldn't their games against the Nets count? If they dominate, they dominate against all, do they not?


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

everybody take a few breaths :laugh:


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jmk</b>!
> 
> 
> It really is funny how everyone but you reads your posts wrong. Every sngle response in this thread has been "Are you dumb? Can you read? You read my post wrong." Maybe you don't even know what you're typing anymore.


Pot Kettle Black. You'll notice my first response to you contains none of the aforementioned statements. 

Stop lying.



> Well, if they dominate in that skill, why wouldn't their games against the Nets count? If they dominate, they dominate against all, do they not?


Because Marbury was solo. I believe that was already discussed.

Notice during the regular season he did dominate. During the 2002 he did the same.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> And I took mine from the Oxford English Dictionary.


That's fine, but I showed you the intended definition of the word I used. 



> Are you aware that both Marbury and Martin play different positions and roles?


Yeah, and I also know Marbury is known as a "dominant scorer".

You said that you disliked Martin because you don't like players that are not dominant. You also said that Marbury is one of the Knicks "dominant" players. I was just pointing out that they have pretty similiar track records in the playoffs. 



> Somehow you think I have feelings about Martin that just don't exist. You tried naming all kinds of silly reasons which I've refuted and you still persist in going back to them.


I didn't name all kinds of silly reasons. I just stated by opinion on your comments about Martin.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> everybody take a few breaths :laugh:


This is what happens when your teams are knocked out of the playoffs. :laugh:


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> This is what happens when your teams are knocked out of the playoffs. :laugh:


Yep.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> That's fine, but I showed you the intended definition of the word I used.


And I showed you the true one. Regardless of that, describing my feelings towards martin as " Indignant Displeasure" would be compeltely inaccurate as they lean closer to hilarious apathy.



> Yeah, and I also know Marbury is known as a "dominant scorer".


No. He is known as a scoring pointguard, there is a huge difference. to put it another way, his game is compared more to Baron Davis's than Allen Iverson's



> You said that you disliked Martin because you don't like players that are not dominant. You also said that Marbury is one of the Knicks "dominant" players. I was just pointing out that they have pretty similiar track records in the playoffs.


No, they really haven't PPG is as valid as TPG and MPG in this comparision.



> I didn't name all kinds of silly reasons. I just stated by opinion on your comments about Martin.


Did you mean your(my) opinion?

If so then I consider your opinion silly, because it's way off base.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> And I showed you the true one.


So Merrian-Webster is wrong?



> No. He is known as a scoring pointguard, there is a huge difference. to put it another way, his game is compared more to Baron Davis's than Allen Iverson's


Marbury's career playoff line is 19.4 ppg, 6.7 apg, and 3.8 rpg.

Martin's career playoff line is 18.1 ppg, 2.5 apg, and 8.3 rpg.

I use playoff stats because they come against the best competition and the respective players should be giving their best effort.

How you can call Marbury dominant, Martin average, and then wonder why I question if you dislike Martin, is beyond me.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> So Merrian-Webster is wrong?


No but Oxford-English is more dominant or rather it contains the definition which is more accepted .

This sounds funny but it's true. 

Either way, either definition the word resentment does not apply to my evaluation of Kenyon Martin



> Marbury's career playoff line is 19.4 ppg, 6.7 apg, and 3.8 rpg.
> 
> Martin's career playoff line is 18.1 ppg, 2.5 apg, and 8.3 rpg.
> 
> I use playoff stats because they come against the best competition and the respective players should be giving their best effort.


Comparing stats from player who play different positions and roles is non sensical.



> How you can call Marbury dominant,


Name 5 point guards better/more dominant at his position.


> Martin average, and then wonder why I question if you dislike Martin, is beyond me.


Name 5 powerforwards better/more dominant at his position.

Marbury is arguably the best pointguard in the league

Kenyone Martin is not even the best power forward in his own Conference.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Comparing stats from player who play different positions and roles is non sensical.


A dominant player transcends the position he plays. 



> Name 5 point guards better/more dominant at his position.
> 
> Name 5 powerforwards better/more dominant at his position.


I never said either player was dominant and I don't feel they are.

Shaq is dominant, Tim Duncan is dominant, KG is dominant.

Right now both Martin and Marbury are good, young players.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> A dominant player transcends the position he plays.


So Kidd isn't a dominant pointguard, because he can't score or shoot?



> I never said either player was dominant and I don't feel they are.
> 
> Shaq is dominant, Tim Duncan is dominant, KG is dominant.
> 
> Right now both Martin and Marbury are good, young players.


I disagree, and I am going to sleep. 

I think Lamar Odom is better because his offensive game is orders of magnitude more efficient, effective, and versatile than Martin's, and that he can do more things that Martin cannot ( dribble the ball, drive well, post well)

I think his defense isn't that far behind Martin's neither is his rebounding ability. While he was with the clippers especially when his rookie year, he was an excellent perimeter defender.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> So Kidd isn't a dominant pointguard, because he can't score or shoot?


Kidd is dominant because of his court vision/passing ability. The ability to dominate a game with out scoring is a remarkable trait.



> I think Lamar Odom is better because his offensive game is orders of magnitude more efficient, effective, and versatile than Martin's, and that he can do more things that Martin cannot ( dribble the ball, drive well, post well)


Odom is a more skilled offensive player, but their end result is similiar (ppg, fg %, etc).



> I think his defense isn't that far behind Martin's neither is his rebounding ability. While he was with the clippers especially when his rookie year, he was an excellent perimeter defender.


I don't feel they are that close defensively.



> I disagree, and I am going to sleep.


G'night.


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## Baron Davis (Apr 14, 2004)

Gayson Kidd is garbage and hes injured so his skill will continue to go down the drain. Martin is garbage like I said before and Nets will continue to be garbage.


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## supaazn (Feb 18, 2003)

I wouldn't say kidd is garbage but i think he is overrated. I agree that he can SOMETIMES take over a game w/o scoring but he still need to score and I don't see him as a good offernse player. For some reason i can't picture the Nets with its current starters to be serious contenders now that the east has improved with Detriot and Indiana. Back to the topic i think Odom skills wise is better than martin because his footwork is sloppy and his jumper isnt that great either and for his hooks, he just uses power and doesnt really have a good hook shot like yao. Martin just uses his strength and pushes the ball. His defense is pretty good but not great. Odom on the other hand can do a lot of things like handle the ball, has a nice jumper, can knock down 3s, post up, rebound, and get assists.


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## Baron Davis (Apr 14, 2004)

Nice post supaazn, I agree with everything. Looks like I win this argument since nobody is willing to argue :laugh:


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

well now that NJ and Miami lost them and now the West has acquire both Forwards.

Question:
Who will make the Allstar next year or the soon?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MiamiHeat03</b>!
> well now that NJ and Miami lost them and now the West has acquire both Forwards.
> 
> Question:
> Who will make the Allstar next year or the soon?


I think it's entirely possible that neither will make the All-Star team during their time in the West.

Duncan, Garnett and Nowitzki have three of the positions locked down for the foreseeable future, most likely. Shawn Marion and Peja Stojakovic are established All-Star forwards. Andrei Kirilenko, Amare Stoudemire, Zach Randolph and Carmelo Anthony are all players who are becoming stars at the position who produce more. And Elton Brand and Pau Gasol are both very good power forwards who will get All-Star selections here and there.

Can Martin and Odom break through those? Maybe, but not highly likely, in my opinion. If I had to select one, I'd go with Lamar Odom. I believe he's more talented, plus he's younger so he has more years to manifest that talent.


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## ssmokinjoe (Jul 5, 2003)

I doubt either of those those cats will make the Western All-star roster. I'm not trying to slight either one of them because both of them are above average players for sure, but the top forwards in the West are already understood. In the case of Odom, he's been in the West most of his career with the Clips already and never established himself as an upper echelon player.

It is still very possible if they have monster seasons, but i doubt it.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Really weird reading this thread knowing that Lamar Odom is a Laker...


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## NugzFan (Jul 26, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> Really weird reading this thread knowing that Lamar Odom is a Laker...


i know the feeling...

look how close the poll is!


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

I like some aspects of KMart's game, but over all versatility goes to Odom - in my opinion.

Also, Jason Kidd is not overrated, imho. ANYBODY that can dominate a game/series without scoring is almost NEVER appreciated enough. But, true connoisseurs of the NBA know better & appreciate it as one of the most enduring attributes of only a great "few" in the history of the NBA.


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## Eamer (Jul 15, 2004)

I'd have Odom


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

I still say K-Mart, mainly because he's an elite defender who can guard guys in the post and out on the perimeter very well. Offensively, they'll give you about equal production scoring the ball and equal rebounding. Martin shoots a better percentage(easily) and Odom is easily the better passer. The one deciding factor has to be defense, which Martin wins quite easily as he is an elite defender in the league in my opinion.


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## espy (May 25, 2004)

I didn't read the other 26 pages of this thread, so my apologies if this has already been mentioned, 

but I'll take Odom.

I've always believed that Kittles, Kmart, Jefferson are good players, but are made to look much better than they are because they have someone with the court vision and passing talent of Jason Kidd running the point.

Odom is much more effective at creating his own shot, and is longer.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

im still talking Odom, of course. Why, more points, rebounds, and assists. Younger, and more versatile.


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## CrossOver (May 19, 2003)

I'd prefer Odom for his versatility, but, they are both extremely effective players that contribute equally yet differently.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

*Lamar Odom v.s. Kenyon Martin*

Lamar v.s. K-Mart


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

LAMAR! 

No, honestly I think it's pretty even. They really play a different style of game so it's weird to compare them. Would be sort of like comparing McGrady or Kobe to Duncan or KG.


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

This has been done before...

Link 

I'll take Martin.


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## bballer27 (Aug 21, 2003)

odom


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>FanOfAll8472</b>!
> This has been done before...
> 
> Link
> ...


Its the same.

I rather have Odom IMO too.


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

okay its been reported that the first game the lakers will play is against Denver.

Who provides a better stats? assuming they are both healthy.


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