# Merged: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...



## John

more and more as Kobe gets older with his jumping ability slow down year by year.

What's with all the turnaround jumpers in the highpost against guys like Bowen, Brown?????

Anyone noticed it?


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## ivo_krka

I don't think any player has ever dunked by Bowen with ease. He's probably the best one on one defender in the league so it's really hard to go past him without losing the ball or passing so he's basically forced to shoot the turnaround jumpers.


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## IV

*Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> more and more as Kobe gets older with his jumping ability slow down year by year.
> 
> What's with all the turnaround jumpers in the highpost against guys like Bowen, Brown?????
> 
> Anyone noticed it?


Kobe tends to rely of his jumper more than Jordan did at this age. I'd personally like to see him take the ball to the rack more than he does, but it's not a bad thing that he doesn't. As players get older their range of athleticism decreases. Since Kobe's been working on his jump shot, it could benefit his game once he's 30 or older.


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## John

*Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe tends to rely of his jumper more than Jordan did at this age. I'd personally like to see him take the ball to the rack more than he does, but it's not a bad thing that he doesn't. As players get older their range of athleticism decreases. Since Kobe's been working on his jump shot, it could benefit his game once he's 30 or older.


I understand what you meant, but can he force a drive anytime he wants?


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## IV

*Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> I understand what you meant, but can he force a drive anytime he wants?


:yes:


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## The MAgiC

It'll help his game when he's 30 or over, but it'll just make him mediocre until then. And Kobe was never gonna be anywhere near Jordan's level. No surprise here.


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## IV

*You might be hatin?*



> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> It'll help his game when he's 30 or over, *but it'll just make him mediocre until then.*


There's no such thing as an allstar, first team all nba, first team all nba defensive team, top 5 MVP canididate... who's mediocre. 

:uhoh:


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## HEATLUNATIC

*Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> I understand what you meant, but can he force a drive anytime he wants?


Obviously he cant when Bowen is guarding him!!!

I think Kobe is using the turnaround more this season because hes not 100%!!!Im sure his knee and shoulder are giving him problems,and u can tell just by looking at him that he isnt even close to being in the shape he was in last year!!!

I think Kobe and T-Mac use the turnaround jumper *way too much* for their age!!!They need to take that **** to the rack!!!


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## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>ivo_krka</b>!
> I don't think any player has ever dunked by Bowen with ease. He's probably the best one on one defender in the league so it's really hard to go past him without losing the ball or passing so he's basically forced to shoot the turnaround jumpers.


Jordan at about age 36 used to terrorize Bowen, so he wasn't always a guy who could stop everybody. He couldn't stop old Jordan, but seems to excel against Kobe......hmmmm.


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## John

That's what I have been saying guys.

Guys like T-mac and Kobe are already peaked skill wise, they are using the 33 years old Jordan game approach on their young body. It helps them to score points easlier. That was also why I said Vince Carter could be the best among all before his knee injuries, although Jordan had a better mid-range game than Vince at such a young age, both Jordan and Vince didnt relie on "full package" skills to do their damage.

If Vince knees were never injuried plus the skill he has this year, he could easily be the 28 points scorer with 48% FG from the field.


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## LB26matrixns

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> :yes:


Yeah right. He'll never penetrate like Jordan and finish with big dunks AS FREQUENTLY as Jordan.....or even close.


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## LB26matrixns

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>HEATLUNATIC</b>!
> 
> 
> Obviously he cant when Bowen is guarding him!!!
> 
> I think Kobe is using the turnaround more this season because hes not 100%!!!Im sure his knee and shoulder are giving him problems,and u can tell just by looking at him that he isnt even close to being in the shape he was in last year!!!
> 
> I think Kobe and T-Mac use the turnaround jumper *way too much* for their age!!!They need to take that **** to the rack!!!


This is the age when coming into the season the comparison was still somewhat close. However......just as I said last year.....Jordan just got better and better. He averaged 37 PPG at 25 and just dunked and finished on whoever he wanted to. Kobe went downward. It's not my problem why......but it is reality that he did.


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## Marcus13

He doesnt even dunk on fast breaks anymore, he is starting to lay it up more......just like Jordan


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## Showtime84'

Contrary to popular belief(Lakers Fans!), Kobe HAS NEVER possesed the athletisism Jordan had.

Kobe is a very good athletic player, but not a super freak. He doesn't have blinding A to point B speed with the ball like Jordan had. Michael in his prime could could give a defender just a subtle fake and once the defender bit, he was gone.

Kobe also has very small hands compared to Jordan wich hinders him when driving into crowded spaces like the painted area. With Kobe he just can't grip a ball with one hand the way Jordan did, so many times you will see him go up with 2 hands and try to double or even triple clutch the shot wich the majority of times ends up like an awkward looking brick. Whe he goes up with one hand he relies on momentum, but that momentum can easily be stoped by the slighest tap on any part of his upper body. That's why Jordan was able to CARRY 1, 2 or 3 defenders towards the rim, because he could palm the ball like an orange and use his leaping and gliding ability to full strengh.

Another part of Kobe's game wich he has actually regressed on is GAME MANAGEMENT. Right know Kobe has YET to find a balance between aggresive and passive play. He's either shooting the ball 22+ times or just floating around the perimeter not looking to attack. He has to find the balance and the PATIENCE to reach even Jordan's 96-98' level.

For my money I think what you see with Kobe now is what you're gonna get for pretty much his entire career. People say "Well he's only 25" yeah but he's been in the league 8 YEARS!!!! and played deep into the playoffs every one of those seasons so the excuse of "youthful inexpirience" goes out the window.


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## John

> Originally posted by <b>Showtime84'</b>!
> Contrary to popular belief(Lakers Fans!), Kobe HAS NEVER possesed the athletisism Jordan had.
> 
> Kobe is a very good athletic player, but not a super freak. He doesn't have blinding A to point B speed with the ball like Jordan had. Michael in his prime could could give a defender just a subtle fake and once the defender bit, he was gone.
> 
> Kobe also has very small hands compared to Jordan wich hinders him when driving into crowded spaces like the painted area. With Kobe he just can't grip a ball with one hand the way Jordan did, so many times you will see him go up with 2 hands and try to double or even triple clutch the shot wich the majority of times ends up like an awkward looking brick. Whe he goes up with one hand he relies on momentum, but that momentum can easily be stoped by the slighest tap on any part of his upper body. That's why Jordan was able to CARRY 1, 2 or 3 defenders towards the rim, because he could palm the ball like an orange and use his leaping and gliding ability to full strengh.
> 
> Another part of Kobe's game wich he has actually regressed on is GAME MANAGEMENT. Right know Kobe has YET to find a balance between aggresive and passive play. He's either shooting the ball 22+ times or just floating around the perimeter not looking to attack. He has to find the balance and the PATIENCE to reach even Jordan's 96-98' level.
> 
> For my money I think what you see with Kobe now is what you're gonna get for pretty much his entire career. People say "Well he's only 25" yeah but he's been in the league 8 YEARS!!!! and played deep into the playoffs every one of those seasons so the excuse of "youthful inexpirience" goes out the window.


I agree everything you said, I will give you a 5 stars. But dont blame me if I hit the wrong button.


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## John

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree everything you said, I will give you a 5 stars. But dont blame me if I hit the wrong button.


Opps, I did, I gave you an 1. Sorry. Maybe when I registered as another, I will give you a 5.


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## John

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> This is the age when coming into the season the comparison was still somewhat close. However......just as I said last year.....Jordan just got better and better. He averaged 37 PPG at 25 and just dunked and finished on whoever he wanted to. Kobe went downward. It's not my problem why......but it is reality that he did.



I like this Chicago fan, i cant say he is a Bull fan because of the bandwagoner he might be, this guy shows immediate impact left and right in this website on bashing Kobe. I love this guy, may I know his age?


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## IV

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah right. He'll never penetrate like Jordan and finish with big dunks AS FREQUENTLY as Jordan.....or even close.


Why are you so stuck on Kobe / Jordan comparisions?


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## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>Showtime84'</b>!
> 
> For my money I think what you see with Kobe now is what you're gonna get for pretty much his entire career. People say "Well he's only 25" yeah but he's been in the league 8 YEARS!!!! and played deep into the playoffs every one of those seasons so the excuse of "youthful inexpirience" goes out the window.


we did see a stretch last year ('03) when he had pretty much the green light to be as aggressive as he could be on offense. the results were pretty impressive. with shaq healthy, kobe does need to figure out how to be aggressive offensively while still running the offense through shaq.


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> we did see a stretch last year ('03) when he had pretty much the green light to be as aggressive as he could be on offense. the results were pretty impressive. with shaq healthy, kobe does need to figure out how to be aggressive offensively *while still running the offense through shaq.*


This may be a determining factor in Kobe's decision to stay in LA or leave. Last year, Kobe was a menace when he had the green light offensively. I doubt he wants to defer to Shaq his entire career. Plus, Shaq's getting older and the offense can't run through him forever.


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## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>Marcus13</b>!
> He doesnt even dunk on fast breaks anymore, he is starting to lay it up more......just like Jordan


Compare them at the same age. Jordan started doing that when he was 33, not 25.


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## LB26matrixns

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> I like this Chicago fan, i cant say he is a Bull fan because of the bandwagoner he might be, this guy shows immediate impact left and right in this website on bashing Kobe. I love this guy, may I know his age?


I am a Bulls fan. A huge one. I never miss a game. I never missed a game in 1999! I don't care if we win 5 games....I can't stop watching, but I can admit that we have sucked, do suck and probably will suck unless we get extremely lucky in either the draft or free agency. So yes I am a huge Bulls fan. I am 26 years old, and excel at Kobe v. Michael. No one is more armed to detonate Kobe fans than me. I have every comparison, argument, counter-argument, and counter-counter-argument nailed. Many a subject I am still a novice at, but throwing jabs, hooks and uppercuts to the face of Kobe fans is not one of them.



PS -- Any Bulls fan from the dynasty who jumped off the bandwagon.......isn't welcome back ever!


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## LB26matrixns

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Why are you so stuck on Kobe / Jordan comparisions?


Because Laker fans were for so long. Ironically in 2002 you could go to any sports chat or message board and find hundreds of Laker fans talking about how Jordan wouldn't be able to do today what he did in 1987, and comparing Kobe and his rat face to the greatest ever. Now, ironically.......no Laker fan ever said that. You can't find one now......it was "the other Laker fans who said that." "I never said that, so why are you so stuck on it, let Kobe be Kobe." Ah yes.....let Kobe be Kobe.....the approach I wanted Laker fans to take in 1999.......not 2004! So please......don't act like I am stuck on it. Everyone who was here or on any other message board in 2000-2002 knows that it wasn't Bulls fans or Jordan fans who were stuck on it at all......it was Kobe fans! Kobe was "like a young Jordan, only Better..."

ROFLMFAO!!


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## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> we did see a stretch last year ('03) when he had pretty much the green light to be as aggressive as he could be on offense. the results were pretty impressive. with shaq healthy, kobe does need to figure out how to be aggressive offensively while still running the offense through shaq.


Yes but.....doing it for a month and doing it for 12 years are two entirely different things. Pippen and Grant usually averaged as much per game as Shaq and any other Laker besides Kobe. So please......stop acting like Kobe just isn't blessed with the green light. When Kobe shoots 42% and Jordan shoots 53% is that argument really valid? Yes that's right. Jordan had two seasons where he shot a better FG% than Karl Malone and Hakeem Olajuwon in the 1980s. So its not "if Kobe only got more shots." Try....."if Kobe only had the Jordanesque ability to hit A HIGHER PERCENTAGE of his shots." Even last February (when Kobe fans were comparing him to MJ with more fervence than ever [idiots]) Kobe only shot 47%. That's not the 53% that your father, Michael Jordan, shot at that age.


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## kflo

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Because Laker fans were for so long. Ironically in 2002 you could go to any sports chat or message board and find hundreds of Laker fans talking about how Jordan wouldn't be able to do today what he did in 1987, and comparing Kobe and his rat face to the greatest ever. Now, ironically.......no Laker fan ever said that. You can't find one now......it was "the other Laker fans who said that." "I never said that, so why are you so stuck on it, let Kobe be Kobe." Ah yes.....let Kobe be Kobe.....the approach I wanted Laker fans to take in 1999.......not 2004! So please......don't act like I am stuck on it. Everyone who was here or on any other message board in 2000-2002 knows that it wasn't Bulls fans or Jordan fans who were stuck on it at all......it was Kobe fans! Kobe was "like a young Jordan, only Better..."
> 
> ROFLMFAO!!


back in '02, i was saying kobe has an opportunity to approach what jordan accomplished in the league. roflyfao at that if you want. i'm still here. 

i love how people who dislike kobe or the lakers label anyone who says anything positive about them as kobe-lovers or laker-lovers. as if steve kerr was a kobe-lover when he made comparisons himself. or ron harper. or phil jackson. or popovich. or countless others in or around the game. all kobe-lovers.

noone can argue kobe had a season up to the standards he set in the past. there are some pretty understandable reasons for that. some not so understandable. but i wouldn't hold this season up as proof of anything regarding what kobe can or can't do. it's foolish. if you want to be the kobe ain't jordan police, fine. you'll find yourself arguing with yourself often. sorry, this ain't '02, and you don't have much of a history with anyone here to bring up any points made in '02.


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## IV

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Because Laker fans were for so long. Ironically in 2002 you could go to any sports chat or message board and find hundreds of Laker fans talking about how Jordan wouldn't be able to do today what he did in 1987, and comparing Kobe and his rat face to the greatest ever. Now, ironically.......no Laker fan ever said that. You can't find one now......it was "the other Laker fans who said that." "I never said that, so why are you so stuck on it, let Kobe be Kobe." Ah yes.....let Kobe be Kobe.....the approach I wanted Laker fans to take in 1999.......not 2004! So please......don't act like I am stuck on it. Everyone who was here or on any other message board in 2000-2002 knows that it wasn't Bulls fans or Jordan fans who were stuck on it at all......it was Kobe fans! Kobe was "like a young Jordan, only Better..."
> 
> ROFLMFAO!!


The irony I see is you're strong dislike for Kobe/Jordan comparisions yet you are the main one bringing that up as a top of discussion. 

Not to mention, you are seemingly confusing Lakers fans, with the media and sports fans in general. You'd be kidding yourself to think that Laker fans are the only ones who have compared Kobe to MJ over the years.


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## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> This may be a determining factor in Kobe's decision to stay in LA or leave. Last year, Kobe was a menace when he had the green light offensively. I doubt he wants to defer to Shaq his entire career. Plus, Shaq's getting older and the offense can't run through him forever.


So if Kobe stays and the offense is run through Kobe you have a few options:

Keep Shaq -- LMAO yeah right. All the Lakers love Shaq and hate Kobe. Phil would be like "run the offense through Kobe" and all the other Lakers would nod their heads and continue to do what they do now.....give the ball to Shaq. And the locker room would be so peaceful too lol. The Lakers locker room is vietnam when Shaq feels like the offense just "kinda" runs through him instead of totally running through him.

Trade Shaq -- To who and for what? The other GMs in the league aren't puppets for the Lakers. They know that if the offense were to run through Kobe......the Lakers are F'd, so they won't be coming with prime offers. They'll just circle the wagons and the next thing you know the Lakers will settle on:

Shaquille O'neal
Kareem Rush 

for 

Tyson Chandler
Eddie Robinson
Jerome Williams
Scottie Pippen
Antonio Davis
Jamal Crawford S&T (you'd likely have to separate Jamal and Rush into their own trade, since Jamal can't be part of a multi-player deal in an S&T)

Obviously that was a joke, but if Laker fans think the offers are going to get much better than that.......they're in for a huge reality check.

Shaq retires -- And his salary still counts against the cap for two more seasons. ROFL. Then you can see Kobe by himself like MJ was before Pippen got there. Can someone say.......naked, exposed, flogged?


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> So if Kobe stays and the offense is run through Kobe you have a few options:
> 
> Keep Shaq -- LMAO yeah right. All the Lakers love Shaq and hate Kobe. Phil would be like "run the offense through Kobe" and all the other Lakers would nod their heads and continue to do what they do now.....give the ball to Shaq. And the locker room would be so peaceful too lol. The Lakers locker room is vietnam when Shaq feels like the offense just "kinda" runs through him instead of totally running through him.
> 
> Trade Shaq -- To who and for what? The other GMs in the league aren't puppets for the Lakers. They know that if the offense were to run through Kobe......the Lakers are F'd, so they won't be coming with prime offers. They'll just circle the wagons and the next thing you know the Lakers will settle on:
> 
> Shaquille O'neal
> Kareem Rush
> 
> for
> 
> Tyson Chandler
> Eddie Robinson
> Jerome Williams
> Scottie Pippen
> Antonio Davis
> Jamal Crawford S&T (you'd likely have to separate Jamal and Rush into their own trade, since Jamal can't be part of a multi-player deal in an S&T)
> 
> Obviously that was a joke, but if Laker fans think the offers are going to get much better than that.......they're in for a huge reality check.
> 
> Shaq retires -- And his salary still counts against the cap for two more seasons. ROFL. Then you can see Kobe by himself like MJ was before Pippen got there. Can someone say.......naked, exposed, flogged?


How many people do you think read post like this and think... wow he's got a good point? Next to none, most people who read your post about LA, think Damn he's incredibly misinformed and biased.


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## LB26matrixns

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> back in '02, i was saying kobe has an opportunity to approach what jordan accomplished in the league. roflyfao at that if you want. i'm still here.
> 
> i love how people who dislike kobe or the lakers label anyone who says anything positive about them as kobe-lovers or laker-lovers. as if steve kerr was a kobe-lover when he made comparisons himself. or ron harper. or phil jackson. or popovich. or countless others in or around the game. all kobe-lovers.
> 
> noone can argue kobe had a season up to the standards he set in the past. there are some pretty understandable reasons for that. some not so understandable. but i wouldn't hold this season up as proof of anything regarding what kobe can or can't do. it's foolish. if you want to be the kobe ain't jordan police, fine. you'll find yourself arguing with yourself often. sorry, this ain't '02, and you don't have much of a history with anyone here to bring up any points made in '02.


LMAO I'll bring up whatever I want. Awww poor *edited: Remain civil* Laker fan wishes he had ammo.......but Kobe and his season, and last seasons playoffs aren't leaving Laker fan with any ammo so its...."waaaa, you're arguing with yourself. You can't bring that up.....waaaa."

Yes.... Popovich, Harper, Kerr and Jackson, out of a desire to bring more importance to what, where and who they are NOW at this moment......bring the comparisons up. They are retarded. 

This season will never go away. You can wish for it all you want, make all the excuses you want or whatever. But if you are waiting for Kobe to vindicate you keep waiting. The fork in the road was the end of February 2003. Just as I warned.......from that point (at the same age) Jordan's game went up and up and up year after year and Kobe's has taken a tremendous turn downward.

Is next year the year where Kobe has to do better than 32 PPG 8 RPG and 8 APG, NBA MVP and Defensive player of the year to equal Jordan?? I think it might be. Kobe next year will either be the same age Jordan was that season, or the season before when MJ averaged 35 PPG on 53% FG and shot a better FG% than Karl Malone and Hakeem Olajuwon.

Interestly enough I think it breaks down like this

Michael Jordan at age 25 = 53.5% FG
Karl Malone at age 25 = 52% FG
Karl Malone at age 40 = 48.%


Kobe Bryant at age 25 = 43.8% FG

And this isn't a Laker thing. It's a Kobe thing. I root against LA because of Kobe and his dumb fans, just like I did in the 80s because of Magic and his dumb fans. I was a big fan of Jabblunt and am a huge fan of Shaq and his fans. Shaq-first Laker fans are not only bearable.....they are pretty cool to talk hoops with, because they hate Kobe and his rat face as much as I do.

Kobe.....give Derek Harper his nose back

Kobe "I just have to impwooove"
Reporter "Did you say 'improve'??" 
Kobe "Yeah I said impwoooove. Did I ever tell you that I took Brandi to the prom?"
Reporter "Yeah that's great....where you're going....they don't have prom Kobe. Every day is the prom lol."


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## The MAgiC

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> Opps, I did, I gave you an 1. Sorry. Maybe when I registered as another, I will give you a 5.


I bet you think that was some kind of hilarious, genius remark, huh? Not even close. Just give him the 1 star you give everyone you don't like and don't waste space telling us about it.


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## LB26matrixns

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> The irony I see is you're strong dislike for Kobe/Jordan comparisions yet you are the main one bringing that up as a top of discussion.
> 
> Not to mention, you are seemingly confusing Lakers fans, with the media and sports fans in general. You'd be kidding yourself to think that Laker fans are the only ones who have compared Kobe to MJ over the years.


It's your as in "your strong dislike"

Stop conventing my posts man. 

You know you brought it up back in the day. You know you are waiting for Kobe to drop 40 points once....and you'll be bringing it up again.


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## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> How many people do you think read post like this and think... wow he's got a good point? Next to none, most people who read your post about LA, think Damn he's incredibly misinformed and biased.


ACtually I am not. Except to Laker fans. Because I am a Laker fans worst nightmare. I point out reality in a way where EVERYONE besides Laker fans and Laker sympathizers says "damn that sure is a concise way to throw all the daggers in one post, and always what I thought but couldnt' quite put into words."

Don't be a contestant and a judge. You can't be part of an argument and judge it at the same time. But incidentally, the only non-Laker, non Jordan fan to weigh in thinks my arguments on Kobe are nice.


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## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes but.....doing it for a month and doing it for 12 years are two entirely different things. Pippen and Grant usually averaged as much per game as Shaq and any other Laker besides Kobe. So please......stop acting like Kobe just isn't blessed with the green light. When Kobe shoots 42% and Jordan shoots 53% is that argument really valid? Yes that's right. Jordan had two seasons where he shot a better FG% than Karl Malone and Hakeem Olajuwon in the 1980s. So its not "if Kobe only got more shots." Try....."if Kobe only had the Jordanesque ability to hit A HIGHER PERCENTAGE of his shots." Even last February (when Kobe fans were comparing him to MJ with more fervence than ever [idiots]) Kobe only shot 47%. That's not the 53% that your father, Michael Jordan, shot at that age.


my post wasn't a direct jordan comparison (not everything is). i was commenting on kobe's ability to do more than he did this year.

is kobe's role in the lakers offense the same as jordan's was with the bulls? was jordan's primary responsibility to run the offense through someone else? it's a different dynamic, and something jordan didn't have to deal with. kobe doesn't have the same green light jordan had, because the offensive objective is different. jordan's primary responsibility when he had the ball was to create for himself or someone else. kobe has to run an offense, through someone else. the difference should be pretty obvious.

53% was 13th in the league. 13th in the league last year was 50%. 

mj's not my father. he was a basketball player i used to watch. he hasn't been a dominant figure for many years now (as you know, 6 years removed from his last title). 

i don't think kobe's as good as jordan. i think he's a great player, and could be one of the best ever. he's got a long way to go.


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> ACtually I am not. Except to Laker fans. Because I am a Laker fans worst nightmare. I point out reality in a way where EVERYONE besides Laker fans and Laker sympathizers says "damn that sure is a concise way to throw all the daggers in one post, and always what I thought but couldnt' quite put into words."


Your invisible friends don't impression any of us, nor does the smug or arrogant tone of your post.



> Don't be a contestant and a judge. You can't be part of an argument and judge it at the same time. But incidentally, the only non-Laker, non Jordan fan to weigh in thinks my arguments on Kobe are nice.


Aren't you the same person who argues with those you disagree with and then judge them as "idiots'


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## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> my post wasn't a direct jordan comparison (not everything is). i was commenting on kobe's ability to do more than he did this year.
> 
> is kobe's role in the lakers offense the same as jordan's was with the bulls? was jordan's primary responsibility to run the offense through someone else? it's a different dynamic, and something jordan didn't have to deal with. kobe doesn't have the same green light jordan had, because the offensive objective is different. jordan's primary responsibility when he had the ball was to create for himself or someone else. kobe has to run an offense, through someone else. the difference should be pretty obvious.
> 
> 53% was 13th in the league. 13th in the league last year was 50%.
> 
> mj's not my father. he was a basketball player i used to watch. he hasn't been a dominant figure for many years now (as you know, 6 years removed from his last title).
> 
> i don't think kobe's as good as jordan. i think he's a great player, and could be one of the best ever. he's got a long way to go.


Forget role in the offense. Look at the percentages. So MJ shot 53% and Kobe 43%. That means even if they both got 30 shots and 0 free throws........Jordan scores 32 points and Kobe scores 26 points. Why is that so hard to understand??

Also......if Kobe had a chance to be the best ever.....wouldn't you think he'd have an MVP award by his 8th season??


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Your invisible friends don't impression any of us, nor does the smug or arrogant tone of your post.
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't you the same person who argues with those you disagree with and then judge them as "idiots'


[edit] 

Also......why don't you try disputing one of my points on what will happen if Kobe stays and the offense is run through him. Give it a shot. I noticed you didn't do that. Know why? [edit].

Please review our guidelines regrding harassment. TB#1
http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/misc.php?s=&action=faq&page=6


----------



## kflo

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> LMAO I'll bring up whatever I want. Awww poor butt hurt Laker fan wishes he had ammo.......but Kobe and his season, and last seasons playoffs aren't leaving Laker fan with any ammo so its...."waaaa, you're arguing with yourself. You can't bring that up.....waaaa."
> 
> Yes.... Popovich, Harper, Kerr and Jackson, out of a desire to bring more importance to what, where and who they are NOW at this moment......bring the comparisons up. They are retarded.
> 
> This season will never go away. You can wish for it all you want, make all the excuses you want or whatever. But if you are waiting for Kobe to vindicate you keep waiting. The fork in the road was the end of February 2003. Just as I warned.......from that point (at the same age) Jordan's game went up and up and up year after year and Kobe's has taken a tremendous turn downward.
> 
> Is next year the year where Kobe has to do better than 32 PPG 8 RPG and 8 APG, NBA MVP and Defensive player of the year to equal Jordan?? I think it might be. Kobe next year will either be the same age Jordan was that season, or the season before when MJ averaged 35 PPG on 53% FG and shot a better FG% than Karl Malone and Hakeem Olajuwon.
> 
> Interestly enough I think it breaks down like this
> 
> Michael Jordan at age 25 = 53.5% FG
> Karl Malone at age 25 = 52% FG
> Karl Malone at age 40 = 48.%
> 
> 
> Kobe Bryant at age 25 = 43.8% FG
> 
> And this isn't a Laker thing. It's a Kobe thing. I root against LA because of Kobe and his dumb fans, just like I did in the 80s because of Magic and his dumb fans. I was a big fan of Jabblunt and am a huge fan of Shaq and his fans. Shaq-first Laker fans are not only bearable.....they are pretty cool to talk hoops with, because they hate Kobe and his rat face as much as I do.
> 
> Kobe.....give Derek Harper his nose back
> 
> Kobe "I just have to impwooove"
> Reporter "Did you say 'improve'??"
> Kobe "Yeah I said impwoooove. Did I ever tell you that I took Brandi to the prom?"
> Reporter "Yeah that's great....where you're going....they don't have prom Kobe. Every day is the prom lol."


you seem to have me confused with someone else. i could give a rats arse if kobe keeps pace with jordan or not. i don't have a need to guard the legend of current or past players. it'll play out however it plays out. if kobe falls way short of jordan, big deal to me. i don't have a kobe-jordan spreadsheet to measure how they stack up season-by-season. it's not really very relevant at this point. 

kobe's legacy won't be decided by this season alone (unless of course this is the season he gets convicted of sexual assault).


----------



## LB26matrixns

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> you seem to have me confused with someone else. i could give a rats arse if kobe keeps pace with jordan or not. i don't have a need to guard the legend of current or past players. it'll play out however it plays out. if kobe falls way short of jordan, big deal to me. i don't have a kobe-jordan spreadsheet to measure how they stack up season-by-season. it's not really very relevant at this point.
> 
> kobe's legacy won't be decided by this season alone (unless of course this is the season he gets convicted of sexual assault).


See you say you don't, but if there was ammo to be had.....you would. There is simply nothing you can point to that is favorable.


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> [edit]
> 
> Also......why don't you try disputing one of my points on what will happen if Kobe stays and the offense is run through him. Give it a shot. I noticed you didn't do that. Know why? [edit].
> 
> Please review our guidelines regrding harassment. TB#1
> http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/misc.php?s=&action=faq&page=6


Ahhh Tom. You was meant as in a person in your shoes.

Not specifically IV. As in "A person who can't distinguish between covet and convent is an idiot."


----------



## IV

*Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> Also......why don't you try disputing one of my points on what will happen if Kobe stays and the offense is run through him. Give it a shot. I noticed you didn't do that. Know why? Cause I am smarter than you and you don't want to be exposed.


Your post are so ridiculously biased where would I start? You already called me an idiot because you think the offense runs through Kobe because he's takes more shots per game than Shaq? Everyone knows otherwise and now that it's out in the open, you are request a debate on how things will work with Kobe at the head? Are you for real? Everything you post is subjective. Just like before, I don't have to debate you to make you look silly, you do a good enough job of that on your own.


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Ahhh Tom. You was meant as in a person in your shoes.
> 
> Not specifically IV. As in "A person who can't distinguish between covet and convent is an idiot."


But Tom I do bet that he appreciated you stepping in for him. I mean there he was....a cut over his left eye, blood squirting out of his nose, staggering with his gloves down.....

"Your invisible friends don't impression any of us, nor does the smug or arrogant tone of your post." -- IV

Tom couldn't a post like that be construed as a personal attack. He's basically saying I hear voices....


----------



## kflo

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> See you say you don't, but if there was ammo to be had.....you would. There is simply nothing you can point to that is favorable.


except i wouldn't be doing it because of a blind kobe is god agenda. i'd be having a discussion on the credentials of one great player compared to another. like i do all the time with other players. sorry if that's not convenient to your agenda here.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Ahhh Tom. You was meant as in a person in your shoes.
> 
> Not specifically IV. As in "A person who can't distinguish between covet and convent is an idiot."


Have you ever heard the phrase 'stuck on stupid?'

Get over it man, this is not a spelling bee.


----------



## IV

*fellas, I'll give him a week... maybe 10 days*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> But Tom I do bet that he appreciated you stepping in for him. I mean there he was....a cut over his left eye, blood squirting out of his nose, staggering with his gloves down.....
> 
> "Your invisible friends don't impression any of us, nor does the smug or arrogant tone of your post." -- IV
> 
> Tom couldn't a post like that be construed as a personal attack. He's basically saying I hear voices....


This guy is taking the rope a dope and he doesn't even realize it.

btw, who's running to the mods now?


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Showtime84'</b>!
> Contrary to popular belief(Lakers Fans!), Kobe HAS NEVER possesed the athletisism Jordan had.
> 
> Kobe is a very good athletic player, but not a super freak. He doesn't have blinding A to point B speed with the ball like Jordan had. Michael in his prime could could give a defender just a subtle fake and once the defender bit, he was gone.
> 
> Kobe also has very small hands compared to Jordan wich hinders him when driving into crowded spaces like the painted area. With Kobe he just can't grip a ball with one hand the way Jordan did, so many times you will see him go up with 2 hands and try to double or even triple clutch the shot wich the majority of times ends up like an awkward looking brick. Whe he goes up with one hand he relies on momentum, but that momentum can easily be stoped by the slighest tap on any part of his upper body. That's why Jordan was able to CARRY 1, 2 or 3 defenders towards the rim, because he could palm the ball like an orange and use his leaping and gliding ability to full strengh.
> 
> Another part of Kobe's game wich he has actually regressed on is GAME MANAGEMENT. Right know Kobe has YET to find a balance between aggresive and passive play. He's either shooting the ball 22+ times or just floating around the perimeter not looking to attack. He has to find the balance and the PATIENCE to reach even Jordan's 96-98' level.
> 
> For my money I think what you see with Kobe now is what you're gonna get for pretty much his entire career. People say "Well he's only 25" yeah but he's been in the league 8 YEARS!!!! and played deep into the playoffs every one of those seasons so the excuse of "youthful inexpirience" goes out the window.


Very good post, I agree 100%.

I've been saying that game management part about Kobe for awhile. 

Anyways, Kobe is a homeless mans Jordan. Its a shame people have seemingly created that comparison and made it so that if Kobe never reaches that level (and he wont) that his career will have been a dissappointment. Kobe is a top 5 player in the league, and that makes him a great player.


----------



## LB26matrixns

*Re: Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Your post are so ridiculously biased where would I start? You already called me an idiot because you think the offense runs through Kobe because he's takes more shots per game than Shaq? Everyone knows otherwise and now that it's out in the open, you are request a debate on how things will work with Kobe at the head? Are you for real? Everything you post is subjective. Just like before, I don't have to debate you to make you look silly, you do a good enough job of that on your own.


First, I never said the offense runs through Kobe......I asked how Laker fans could ask for a bigger role for Kobe when he's taking more shots.

I back nearly all of my contentions up with numbers.......or did you miss the part where I referred to percentages??


----------



## LB26matrixns

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> except i wouldn't be doing it because of a blind kobe is god agenda. i'd be having a discussion on the credentials of one great player compared to another. like i do all the time with other players. sorry if that's not convenient to your agenda here.


Yes but you just admitted.....you would be doing it. So don't say that you don't do it, as if you wouldn't if you had any ammo.


----------



## LB26matrixns

*Re: fellas, I'll give him a week... maybe 10 days*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> This guy is taking the rope a dope and he doesn't even realize it.
> 
> btw, who's running to the mods now?


I'm not running to the mods for anything. I'd love for the mods to back off and let me verbally smack you in your pie hole any way I see fit. But Tom seems to want to tell me things that he doesn't hold you to. Moderators should be fair. If they aren't fair, they aren't moderators.....they are boys with one of the contestants. 

BTW Ali wasn't cut and bleeding in rope-a-dope.....you're more like Holmes against Tyson.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes but you just admitted.....you would be doing it. So don't say that you don't do it, as if you wouldn't if you had any ammo.


i'd be doing what? comparing players? again, i do it all the time.


----------



## LB26matrixns

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan..*



> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> i'd be doing what? comparing players? again, i do it all the time.


Yes so its no different from what I am doing. You're just *edited: Please stop using this term. Attack points you disagree with and *not* the poster* because you have no ammo.


----------



## IV

*Re: Re: Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> First, *I never said the offense runs through Kobe*......I asked how Laker fans could ask for a bigger role for Kobe when he's taking more shots.


Word for word this is exactly what you said:



> Kobe has shot the ball 8 more times than O'neal in this series.....genius
> 
> Also......you said something about first option Laker fan. *Do first options always average 4 less shots per game than second options??*


You didn't outright say it then, so I asked:

"_In other words, Kobe is the lakers first option because he takes more shots per game than Shaq? Is that what you think?_"

*You replied:*



> That is usually the biggest defining benchmark.....


 

You've blurted out so much nonsense you can't even remember what you've said.




> I back nearly all of my contentions up with numbers.......or did you miss the part where I referred to percentages??


And it's a poor arguement. You don't argue stats across eras of basketball. There's no respectable conclusion you can draw from them. Difference levels of talent explain the difference in percentages. Do you think Wilt is the greatest of all time because he averaged better number than Mike? If not, why is this any different?


----------



## kflo

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jord*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes so its no different from what I am doing. You're just *edited: Please stop using this term. Attack points you disagree with and *not* the poster* because you have no ammo.


but again, you're arguing with yourself. you say kobe's not jordan. everyone agrees. you repeat. yawn.


----------



## LB26matrixns

*Re: Re: Re: Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Word for word this is exactly what you said:
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't outright say it then, so I asked:
> 
> "_In other words, Kobe is the lakers first option because he takes more shots per game than Shaq? Is that what you think?_"
> 
> *You replied:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've blurted out so much nonsense you can't even remember what you've said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And it's a poor arguement. You don't argue stats across eras of basketball. There's no respectable conclusion you can draw from them. Difference levels of talent explain the difference in percentages. Do you think Wilt is the greatest of all time because he averaged better number than Mike? If not, why is this any different?


Running an offense through someone (as in every time we run down the floor we pass to shaq and he passes or shoots) isnt the same as being the first scoring option.

Wilt didn't have better stats than Jordan. I have yet to find a player in the history of the NBA that averaged better numbers in four of the following seven categories PPG, RPG, SPG, APG, BPG, FG%, FT% than Jordan. Wilt had a better RPG, BPG, and FG%, but Jordan wins PPG, APG, SPG, FT%.

No player beats MJ in 4 of these 7 categories career......not Wilt, Magic, Bird, Oscar, Kobe, Shaq or Duncan. Not in the 60s, 80s or 00s. No one.

How is it such a bad argument? Jordan shot a better percentage than Karl Malone and Hakeem Olajuwon. Could Kobe shoot a higher percentage than a top 3 Center and the top power forward from today?? NO! Jordan was better against his era than Kobe is against his era too! Don't try it Kobe fan. There is no successful argument. Whereas Jordan statistically blew everyone in his era out of the water (including players like Magic, Bird, Malone, Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Payton, O'neal, etc) Kobe has not shown the ability to even be the number 1 statistical player in today's game.


----------



## LB26matrixns

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from*



> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> but again, you're arguing with yourself. you say kobe's not jordan. everyone agrees. you repeat. yawn.


So you agree that one great month or great series wouldn't prompt you or any other laker fans to start?


----------



## kflo

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Running an offense through someone (as in every time we run down the floor we pass to shaq and he passes or shoots) isnt the same as being the first scoring option.


in la's case it is the same thing. the first objective of the offense is to get shaq a scoring opportunity, or have shaq create an opportunity for someone else. 



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> Wilt didn't have better stats than Jordan. I have yet to find a player in the history of the NBA that averaged better numbers in four of the following seven categories PPG, RPG, SPG, APG, BPG, FG%, FT% than Jordan. Wilt had a better RPG, BPG, and FG%, but Jordan wins PPG, APG, SPG, FT%.


wilt's peak numbers are far greater. he's downside numbers pulled them down. does that mean wilt's peak was better than jordan's?

btw, i think jordan's the best ever, although i also think reasonable arguments could be made for others, and don't get indignant at any suggestion he's not.


----------



## IV

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Running an offense through someone (as in every time we run down the floor we pass to shaq and he passes or shoots) isnt the same as being the first scoring option.


Shaq is the Lakers number one option and he is the guy they run the offense through. You put your foot in your mouth either way, so just eat the crow.



> Wilt didn't have better stats than Jordan. I have yet to find a player in the history of the NBA that averaged better numbers in four of the following seven categories PPG, RPG, SPG, APG, BPG, FG%, FT% than Jordan. Wilt had a better RPG, BPG, and FG%, but Jordan wins PPG, APG, SPG, FT%.


I don't think Wilt is the greater of the two. Just like K said, if you like to argue with yourself about Jordan being the greatest of all time, go right ahead. 

and BTW, blocks were not a lodged statistic in Wilt's day, in which case Jordan recorded more blocks per game than Chamberlain.



> No player beats MJ in 4 of these 7 categories career......not Wilt, Magic, Bird, Oscar, Kobe, Shaq or Duncan. Not in the 60s, 80s or 00s. No one.


Even if a player did, MJ would still be the greatest of all time. 



> How is it such a bad argument? Jordan shot a better percentage than Karl Malone and Hakeem Olajuwon. *Could Kobe* shoot a higher percentage than a top 3 Center and the top power forward from today?? NO! Jordan was better against his era than Kobe is against his era too! Don't try it Kobe fan. There is no successful argument. Whereas Jordan statistically blew everyone in his era out of the water (including players like Magic, Bird, Malone, Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Payton, O'neal, etc) Kobe has not shown the ability to even be the number 1 statistical player in today's game.


I wouldn't waste time blindly arguing what any player could do.... see that would be speculating and that's always questionable... which is why it's a poor arguement. But regardless the point remains the same, no one disagrees that Jordan is better than Kobe.. so save your breath.


----------



## kflo

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind f*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> So you agree that one great month or great series wouldn't prompt you or any other laker fans to start?


if kobe averaged 40 for a month, or a playoff series, or did something that was awe inspiring, it's likely jordan's name will be mentioned (jordanesque?). it's actually a compliment to jordan that he's the reference point. i'm sure you'll be here to stop the insanity, but i'm sure a majority won't be claiming kobe has equaled or surpassed his-greatness for a long time (at least not in terms of career).


----------



## LB26matrixns

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> in la's case it is the same thing. the first objective of the offense is to get shaq a scoring opportunity, or have shaq create an opportunity for someone else.
> 
> 
> 
> wilt's peak numbers are far greater. he's downside numbers pulled them down. does that mean wilt's peak was better than jordan's?
> 
> btw, i think jordan's the best ever, although i also think reasonable arguments could be made for others, and don't get indignant at any suggestion he's not.


1. Yeah.....so when Shaq does that and creates more shots for Kobe than he takes himself.......what are Laker/Kobe-first fans complaining about.

2. Did Wilt play until he was 40?? Wilt's numbers at 34 "pulling him down" are not my problem. You say Wilt's numbers were better........show me a number of seasons as large as 4 even where Wilt averages a better APG, SPG, FT% or PPG than Jordan.....you'll get the PPG.....but then show me someone on wilt's team who averaged as much as Pippen, OR even the fact that Wilt's team won something during those years. 

Yeah I think if you put Jordan on the Wichita Flyers of the 1950s NBA, told him he had no chance, gave him no other scoring options and told him to go at it and shoot everything he could put up against 6'0" white guys with far less athleticism.......he'd average 50 PPG for a season. Mu F'in Clyde Drexler probably would too under those conditions. Maybe if Wilt didn't average 14 PPG at 36 (MJ was MVP at age 35 and averaged almost 30) he wouldn't have dipped.

But the best part is.........from the age of 21 (when Jordan entered the league; it would be unfair to bring Kobe's stats from ages 17-20 into this) to the age of 25 (Kobe's current age)....if you compare both players stats......its not even close. MJ has better averages in EVERY stat. If you don't believe me go to NBA.com with a calculator and do the comparison. 7 of 7 stats! So this isn't just one number (there were SOME seasons where Wilt had 4 of 7 stats on MJ, even though he only finished with 3 of 7)........with Kobe v. MJ.......its all of them.

Nice try.


----------



## LB26matrixns

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Shaq is the Lakers number one option and he is the guy they run the offense through. You put your foot in your mouth either way, so just eat the crow.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think Wilt is the greater of the two. Just like K said, if you like to argue with yourself about Jordan being the greatest of all time, go right ahead.
> 
> and BTW, blocks were not a lodged statistic in Wilt's day, in which case Jordan recorded more blocks per game than Chamberlain.
> 
> 
> 
> Even if a player did, MJ would still be the greatest of all time.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't waste time blindly arguing what any player could do.... see that would be speculating and that's always questionable... which is why it's a poor arguement. But regardless the point remains the same, no one disagrees that Jordan is better than Kobe.. so save your breath.


No you aren't getting what I asked you. I said that Jordan averaged a higher FG% than the top PF and a top 3 center (depending on who you asked back then) in the game in his era?

Does Kobe do that now? Does he average a higher FG% than say Yao Ming and Kevin Garnett?? NO!


----------



## LB26matrixns

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behi*



> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> if kobe averaged 40 for a month, or a playoff series, or did something that was awe inspiring, it's likely jordan's name will be mentioned (jordanesque?). it's actually a compliment to jordan that he's the reference point. i'm sure you'll be here to stop the insanity, but i'm sure a majority won't be claiming kobe has equaled or surpassed his-greatness for a long time (at least not in terms of career).


You seem to take a reasonable stance here. I can concur, but with suspicion. Let's just say I wouldn't take both eyes off of you, but we can squash it for now


----------



## IV

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> 1. Yeah.....so when Shaq does that and creates more shots for Kobe than he takes himself.......what are Laker/Kobe-first fans complaining about.


No one is complaining. We would just like to see how Kobe would do if the offense was ran around him and not Shaq. Just like the month when he averaged 40 a game. Small sample, but it could speak of what he would do as the number one option.



> 2. Did Wilt play until he was 40?? Wilt's numbers at 34 "pulling him down" are not my problem. You say Wilt's numbers were better........show me a number of seasons as large as 4 even where Wilt averages a better APG, SPG, FT% or PPG than Jordan.....you'll get the PPG.....but then show me someone on wilt's team who averaged as much as Pippen, OR even the fact that Wilt's team won something during those years.


Wilt's showed an array of skills through his career. He's averaged 50 ppg. He's averaged nearly 30 boards a game. He once led the league in assist, nearly 9 assist a game. Surely he averaged 5+ blocks per game. He was a terrible free throw shooter. He's FG% was as high as 68%!


----------



## IV

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> No you aren't getting what I asked you. I said that Jordan averaged a higher FG% than the top PF and a top 3 center (depending on who you asked back then) in the game in his era?
> 
> Does Kobe do that now? Does he average a higher FG% than say Yao Ming and Kevin Garnett?? NO!


Your standards can do no more than prove what everyone here agrees to. 

All you're doing is Kobe bashing or Laker bashing or Shaq bashing... okay. You've extablished yourself as a Laker hater, we get the point, now move on.


----------



## LB26matrixns

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> No one is complaining. We would just like to see how Kobe would do if the offense was ran around him and not Shaq. Just like the month when he averaged 40 a game. Small sample, but it could speak of what he would do as the number one option.
> 
> 
> 
> Wilt's showed an array of skills through his career. He's averaged 50 ppg. He's averaged nearly 30 boards a game. He once led the league in assist, nearly 9 assist a game. Surely he averaged 5+ blocks per game. He was a terrible free throw shooter. He's FG% was as high as 68%!


1. And Kobe has also averaged 29.7 PPG on 44% FG and gone 3-9 as the number one option when Shaq had surgery.

2. And Jordan still finished with a better career average in 4 of 7 stats while playing to an older age.


----------



## LB26matrixns

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Your standards can do no more than prove what everyone here agrees to.
> 
> All you're doing is Kobe bashing or Laker bashing or Shaq bashing... okay. You've extablished yourself as a Laker hater, we get the point, now move on.


Don't tell me when to move on.......this isn't China. I'll decide when I've established what I have to say and when I'll move on. I don't need help from a boy that doesn't know the difference between covet and convent.

You disputed the point by saying "there is no way we can know what Kobe would do back then".......when, in reality, what I was saying was can Kobe do TODAY something comparable to what MJ did back then......which would be to lead Yao and Garnett in FG%.


----------



## IV

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> 1. And Kobe has also averaged 29.7 PPG on 44% FG and gone 3-9 as the number one option when Shaq had surgery.


Yes, and they went 11-19 from that point forward with Shaq. 



> 2. And Jordan still finished with a better career average in 4 of 7 stats while playing to an older age.


Jordan is an all court player he should average more.


----------



## IV

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Don't tell me when to move on.......this isn't China. I'll decide when I've established what I have to say and when I'll move on. I don't need help from a boy that doesn't know the difference between covet and convent.


I don't expect you to. You're too smart to know when and when not to overemphasis a point. But then again sometimes points are pointless. 



> You disputed the point by saying "there is no way we can know what Kobe would do back then".......when, in reality, what I was saying was can Kobe do TODAY something comparable to what MJ did back then......which would be to lead Yao and Garnett in FG%.


how long will you persist to talk in circles.


----------



## LB26matrixns

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, and they went 11-19 from that point forward with Shaq.
> 
> 
> 
> Jordan is an all court player he should average more.


REally?? NO! The stats that a center should average more are RPG, BPG, FG%. The stats that a guard should average more are SPG, APG, FT%. Which leaves PPG as an equal fighting ground for superiority. Jordan wins....he's the all-time NBA leader in PPG.


----------



## LB26matrixns

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't expect you to. You're too smart to know when and when not to overemphasis a point. But then again sometimes points are pointless.
> 
> 
> 
> how long will you persist to talk in circles.


I wasn't talking in circles, but the answer, if you assume I was for the sake of discussion is twofold:

1. Longer than you
2. However long I want


----------



## kflo

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> REally?? NO! The stats that a center should average more are RPG, BPG, FG%. The stats that a guard should average more are SPG, APG, FT%. Which leaves PPG as an equal fighting ground for superiority. Jordan wins....he's the all-time NBA leader in PPG.


if you want to go this route, wilt was far more dominant in his categories (rpg & bpg) than jordan was in his. and again, jordan's the leader in career ppg, but wilt has 4 of the top 5, and 5 of the top 7 seasons. if wilt retired at 35 instead of 36, he'd be better?


----------



## ivo_krka

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Jordan at about age 36 used to terrorize Bowen, so he wasn't always a guy who could stop everybody. He couldn't stop old Jordan, but seems to excel against Kobe......hmmmm.



Sorry, but Jordan was 36 in 1999. so he didn't play in the league at the time.


----------



## Minstrel

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> show me a number of seasons as large as 4 even where Wilt averages a better APG, SPG, FT% or PPG than Jordan.....


While I also think Jordan is the greatest of all-time, I'm not sure why you argue it like this. There are two major flaws:

1. All statistics are not equally important. PPG or RPG or APG are all *hugely* more important than FT%, or SPG/BPG. If one player "wins" PPG and the other "wins" FT% and the other numbers are all equal, are they equal players? I wouldn't say so...while it's nice to shoot a higher free throw percentage, it's not as impactful as scoring more. 

2. Being outrebounded by 14 is not the same as being outscored by 2. It matters how *much* you win a stat by. Some of Wilt's rebounding numbers just crush Jordan's, even if Jordan had slightly more assists or steals.

When Wilt Chamberlain averaged 50 ppg and around 20 rpg, would you really say it was not a far better season than any of Jordan's, just because Jordan may have shot a better FT% and gotten 1 extra steal, perhaps?


----------



## Lakers_32_4ever

Oh.. btw.. Bird wins four of the seven categories..

FT% ... He wins .886 to .835

RPG he wins 10.0 to 6.2

APG he wins 6.3 to 5.3

BPG he wins 0.84 to 0.83

Michael Jordan only wins the other three... so yea.. 

Anyways, as was said earlier, that doesn't change who the better player was. It just shows that you made a strongly declarative statement that was wrong...You have repeatedly bashed IV for his lack of knowledge on covet and convent, but you are wrong, too.



> Wilt didn't have better stats than Jordan. I have yet to find a player in the history of the NBA that averaged better numbers in four of the following seven categories PPG, RPG, SPG, APG, BPG, FG%, FT% than Jordan. ...No player beats MJ in 4 of these 7 categories career......not Wilt, Magic, Bird, Oscar, Kobe, Shaq or Duncan. Not in the 60s, 80s or 00s. No one.


So, you might wanna check up on that again. Theres no really clear argument being made in this debate.

Theres no Kobe v. Jordan anymore. It just seems like its "lets argue against LB26matrixns because he wants to argue with us"

And also, from the peak stat argument, Jordan has no grounds again. As Minstrel noted, the difference is important, too. 

Since you seem obsessed with arguing from a statistical perspective, and do not care to adjust for era arguments, you have no response at all so the 50ppg season and other such feats of Wilt. Your excuse is athleticism, but excuses can be made for all sides. And about Jordan averaging 30ppg when he was 35 as opposed to Wilt's 14 at age 36, realize the difference that exists in the physical beating and deterioration that a center takes as opposed to a shooting guard. That's a far more legit excuse than the idea that the old NBA was not athletic enough to stop Wilt.

I don't want to get embroiled in this endless argument, but I'm throwing my support on the other side. You have no point to make; you are just obsessing over Jordan when no one is contesting his monolithic stature as a great. So, yes, go ahead. Continue, if you wish. You are wasting your own time. If you claim to be as smart and superior to "idiots" as you really are, then you would have stopped by now. But, alas, maybe you aren't.


----------



## LB26matrixns

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> While I also think Jordan is the greatest of all-time, I'm not sure why you argue it like this. There are two major flaws:
> 
> 1. All statistics are not equally important. PPG or RPG or APG are all *hugely* more important than FT%, or SPG/BPG. If one player "wins" PPG and the other "wins" FT% and the other numbers are all equal, are they equal players? I wouldn't say so...while it's nice to shoot a higher free throw percentage, it's not as impactful as scoring more.
> 
> 2. Being outrebounded by 14 is not the same as being outscored by 2. It matters how *much* you win a stat by. Some of Wilt's rebounding numbers just crush Jordan's, even if Jordan had slightly more assists or steals.
> 
> When Wilt Chamberlain averaged 50 ppg and around 20 rpg, would you really say it was not a far better season than any of Jordan's, just because Jordan may have shot a better FT% and gotten 1 extra steal, perhaps?


Yes but we aren't even at that point. I agree with you. If we got to the point where the only category MJ had on someone was FT% or something like your example, then it would be completely valid. I agree. Good job. But no one can get to the point where that is an issue.

Ok the point was EVEN with Wilt's playing era advantage Jordan still "leads" in 4 of 7 stats. We all know that the league was much whiter and shorter than the one Jordan played in in the late 50s, and 60's and 70s. It got much better by the late 60s, but Wilt was in decline at that time anyway. If Jordan were to play in that time you don't think his stats could be gaudy?? First of all.......for the first half of his career the average guy to guard him would be white, secondly instead of being 6'4" of 6'5" like the average guy Jordan did face.....his defender would likely average about 6'1".

I really don't care what Wilt did against Dolph Schayes and Dane Fife's 11 cousins, or what he did to Tom Coverdale's dad. Not that significant to me. How about the fact that he played with more hall of famers than Jordan, and has two rings in four finals appearances?

That's right. One time he was popped in the mouth in a game 7 by Russell hobbling on his last legs. Wilt was just 33 when that happened. Russell was 38 and fighting injuries bad. The rest of the Celtics roster was depleted from previous seasons.

Then there was the "Willis Reed" game......"here comes Willis." Reed actually played very little. Chamberlain failed to lead his team to victory while being guarded by 6'8" Dave Debuschere. It would be like putting Mark PRice on Jordan and Michael not finding a way. The "4 of 7" test is great. Because even when a player gets close to Michael......then you can go deeper in the analysis and see he isn't really close at all. 

Now ....... if you put Russell's heart in Chamberlain's body .....you would have a player equal to Michael Jordan.


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>Lakers_32_4ever</b>!
> Oh.. btw.. Bird wins four of the seven categories..
> 
> FT% ... He wins .886 to .835
> 
> RPG he wins 10.0 to 6.2
> 
> APG he wins 6.3 to 5.3
> 
> BPG he wins 0.84 to 0.83
> 
> Michael Jordan only wins the other three... so yea..
> 
> Anyways, as was said earlier, that doesn't change who the better player was. It just shows that you made a strongly declarative statement that was wrong...You have repeatedly bashed IV for his lack of knowledge on covet and convent, but you are wrong, too.
> 
> 
> 
> So, you might wanna check up on that again. Theres no really clear argument being made in this debate.
> 
> Theres no Kobe v. Jordan anymore. It just seems like its "lets argue against LB26matrixns because he wants to argue with us"
> 
> And also, from the peak stat argument, Jordan has no grounds again. As Minstrel noted, the difference is important, too.
> 
> Since you seem obsessed with arguing from a statistical perspective, and do not care to adjust for era arguments, you have no response at all so the 50ppg season and other such feats of Wilt. Your excuse is athleticism, but excuses can be made for all sides. And about Jordan averaging 30ppg when he was 35 as opposed to Wilt's 14 at age 36, realize the difference that exists in the physical beating and deterioration that a center takes as opposed to a shooting guard. That's a far more legit excuse than the idea that the old NBA was not athletic enough to stop Wilt.
> 
> I don't want to get embroiled in this endless argument, but I'm throwing my support on the other side. You have no point to make; you are just obsessing over Jordan when no one is contesting his monolithic stature as a great. So, yes, go ahead. Continue, if you wish. You are wasting your own time. If you claim to be as smart and superior to "idiots" as you really are, then you would have stopped by now. But, alas, maybe you aren't.


Ahh yes......last I checked that argument MJ was still playing. So he came back at 40 and fell .01 BPG below Bird......

Now you can step a level beyond that. MVPS and RINGS 

But you don't get it. You are trying to do what I am trying to do. Be the last post so you can prove you shut me down. You just aren't successful.

Adjust for eras? The point was MJ dominated his era statistically just like Wilt dominated his. But MJ also won 6 rings. Even with the hall of fame laced CEltics Wilt had two prime opportunities that he blew. Adjust for eras? That's funny. Wanna see Wilt today......watch Shaq and then take some talent and dominance off and you have Wilt. God I would love to see what Daddy Diesel (who i am a huge fan of) could do if his average defender was white, 6'8" 235 lbs. LMAO. 

.8 blocks per game and .8 blocks per game looks the same to me.


----------



## DaBruins

anyone comparing FG percentages would be stupid for doing so. The game was completely different when Jordan was 25 and now when Kobe is 25. EVERYONES FG percentage was higher than because of the style of play and the fact that there weren't as many good on-ball defenders.

Why is the fact that kobe takes more jumpers a bad thing? He can make them any time he wants and is already more clutch than Jordan. Yeah i said it. The Portland game put him over the top. I've never seen a more clutch performance, Ever! And i've been around for a while. The fact that he takes jumpers instead of driving to the hole uncontrolably is due to his maturity. Unlike all these young guys (and idiotic players like Carter) Kobe knows he has more skill than just his athletic ability. TMAC on the other hand should keep driving because his shot and his form is not as good as kobes and he's not even close to being clutch at the end of the game.

Anyone comparing Jordan and Kobe is killing a dead horse and is fighting a stupid argument on BOTH SIDES! There will be no one like Jordan, and there will be no one like Kobe and its as simple as that. Jordan did it his own way and it took him a lot of years before winning a ring. Kobe is doing it his way and although he doesn't have full control of the team his success has been far greater thus far. Compare the two at their age, and i'll give the edge to Kobes success over Jordans numbers. But comparing them over the length of their careers or just as basketball players in general is unnecessary. MJ stands alone in that regard.


----------



## John

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> 
> 
> I bet you think that was some kind of hilarious, genius remark, huh? Not even close. Just give him the 1 star you give everyone you don't like and don't waste space telling us about it.



I have to admit you would be of the fews I would give a 5 if you have your thing on once again.


----------



## IV

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh so, the offense runs through Kobe now?*



> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> if you want to go this route, wilt was far more dominant in his categories (rpg & bpg) than jordan was in his. and again, jordan's the leader in career ppg, but wilt has 4 of the top 5, and 5 of the top 7 seasons. if wilt retired at 35 instead of 36, he'd be better?


Arguing numbers across eras of ball is a weak way to prove any point. Micheal Jordan is the greatest player of all time because his impact on the game was greater than any player before or after him. The stats are oblivious. You can tweak the stats to favor a few players over MJ, but you can't make a respectable arguement vs the Jordan impact from 85 to now!


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>DaBruins</b>!
> anyone comparing FG percentages would be stupid for doing so. The game was completely different when Jordan was 25 and now when Kobe is 25. EVERYONES FG percentage was higher than because of the style of play and the fact that there weren't as many good on-ball defenders.
> 
> Why is the fact that kobe takes more jumpers a bad thing? He can make them any time he wants and is already more clutch than Jordan. Yeah i said it. The Portland game put him over the top. I've never seen a more clutch performance, Ever! And i've been around for a while. The fact that he takes jumpers instead of driving to the hole uncontrolably is due to his maturity. Unlike all these young guys (and idiotic players like Carter) Kobe knows he has more skill than just his athletic ability. TMAC on the other hand should keep driving because his shot and his form is not as good as kobes and he's not even close to being clutch at the end of the game.
> 
> Anyone comparing Jordan and Kobe is killing a dead horse and is fighting a stupid argument on BOTH SIDES! There will be no one like Jordan, and there will be no one like Kobe and its as simple as that. Jordan did it his own way and it took him a lot of years before winning a ring. Kobe is doing it his way and although he doesn't have full control of the team his success has been far greater thus far. Compare the two at their age, and i'll give the edge to Kobes success over Jordans numbers. But comparing them over the length of their careers or just as basketball players in general is unnecessary. MJ stands alone in that regard.


Ok but you had to go there.........no he's not more clutch than Jordan......I really don't care what he did against the *edited: Using mocking names for teams is not encouraged*. See that's the thing.......you really think that and its painfully obvious you haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about.

It's pretty easy to compare across eras. You can say what you want about percentages. Jordan's was higher than some elite centers and power forwards. Can Kobe do that? And don't bust out with Zach Randolph and Zydrunas Ilgauskas (not saying he is higher than them). I want two players as good as Malone and Olajuwon.


----------



## The MAgiC

> TMAC on the other hand should keep driving because his shot and his form is not as good as kobes and he's not even close to being clutch at the end of the game.


T-Mac's jumpshot is a lot more deadly than Kobe's, and you lost the right to talk about clutchness the moment you not only uttered Kobe's name in the same sentence as Jordan's, but actually said he's more clutch, which is plasphemy. I'm not sure you even understand the meaning of the term.


----------



## reggie4life

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> 
> 
> T-Mac's jumpshot is a lot more deadly than Kobe's, and you lost the right to talk about clutchness the moment you not only uttered Kobe's name in the same sentence as Jordan's, but actually said he's more clutch, which is plasphemy. I'm not sure you even understand the meaning of the term.


Tracy's Jumpshot is more deadly than Kobes?? thats debateable at best! Tracy is the king of dribbling up the court and just raising up and jacking up 3's, without even running any of the offense. You obviously havent seen kobe play that much. Kobe might be the 3rd best mid range shooter in the league behind rip and sam. Tmac might have better %'s from three. But last time i checked Kobe is the nba record holder for All the three pt stats in a game??


----------



## John

> Originally posted by <b>reggie4life</b>!
> 
> Tracy's Jumpshot is more deadly than Kobes?? thats debateable at best! Tracy is the king of dribbling up the court and just raising up and jacking up 3's, without even running any of the offense. You obviously havent seen kobe play that much. Kobe might be the 3rd best mid range shooter in the league behind rip and sam. Tmac might have better %'s from three. But last time i checked Kobe is the nba record holder for All the three pt stats in a game??



*Tracy is the king of dribbling up the court and just raising up and jacking up 3's, without even running any of the offense*

Thank God. Finally, someone speaks the truth.


----------



## Spriggan

kobe sure did a great impression of MJ tonight vs the spurs


----------



## John

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> kobe sure did a great impression of MJ tonight vs the spurs


LMAO.


----------



## reggie4life

I dont understand why he is hated on so much. The guy plays with so much passion and heart. He never said he wanted to be Michael Jordan. So what he patterned his game after him. I mean who should he have patterned it after, Ced Ceballos?? I mean every young kid growing up has his fav pro's poster on the wall in his room. Maybe if other stars ( In toronto, philly and orlando) played with half of the heart that #8 played with they might have actually made the playoffs. That was one of the greatest Halves of basketball under the pressure the lakers were under EVER. The kid loves to play basketball, and if you wouldnt want him on your team, then you obviously dont know anything about basketball.


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> kobe sure did a great impression of MJ tonight vs the spurs


See.....that's just it though. Look like that every other game and then we have something to talk about. Look that dominant once in ten games and you are no MJ...you are capable of turning in performances on par with MJ's SOMETIMES, but not nearly as often as he did. You wanna go look at the number of 40 point games MJ had in the playoffs by age 25, or 26.....? He had more 50 point games than Kobe's had forty.....he was ridiculous. Am I saying Kobe sucks? No. I have him currently behind West and Jordan all time, but lets just leave the Jordan comparisons be......because doing what he did tonight every other game for 12 years will be what make him MJ.


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>reggie4life</b>!
> I dont understand why he is hated on so much. The guy plays with so much passion and heart. He never said he wanted to be Michael Jordan. So what he patterned his game after him. I mean who should he have patterned it after, Ced Ceballos?? I mean every young kid growing up has his fav pro's poster on the wall in his room. Maybe if other stars ( In toronto, philly and orlando) played with half of the heart that #8 played with they might have actually made the playoffs. That was one of the greatest Halves of basketball under the pressure the lakers were under EVER. The kid loves to play basketball, and if you wouldnt want him on your team, then you obviously dont know anything about basketball.


it's not really him that is so annoying. Ok well he's utterly annoying......when he scrunches his lips up and looks like a damn rat I want to barf.......but its not even that. It's mostly his fans and how annoying they are.

Michael Jordan was a gold standard set night in and night out for YEARS. It was games like this AND MUCH BETTER FAR more often. But every time Kobe has a game that wouldn't even rank in Jordan's top early playoff performances he "sure did a good MJ impression tonight." It's like fine.........wanna do that......then when he's mediocre by Jordanesque standards.......come in and say that then. Come in when Kobe is anything but Jordanesque and say "man Kobe sure did look more like Gerald Wilkins than Michael Jordan tonight."


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> See.....that's just it though. Look like that every other game and then we have something to talk about. Look that dominant once in ten games and you are no MJ...you are capable of turning in performances on par with MJ's SOMETIMES, but not nearly as often as he did. You wanna go look at the number of 40 point games MJ had in the playoffs by age 25, or 26.....? He had more 50 point games than Kobe's had forty.....he was ridiculous. Am I saying Kobe sucks? No. I have him currently behind West and Jordan all time, but lets just leave the Jordan comparisons be......because doing what he did tonight every other game for 12 years will be what make him MJ.


no one is saying he IS mj. saying that he's doing a good impression of MJ is just that... an impression. kobe isn't on MJ's level, but he's not as far behind as a lot of people seem to think.


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> no one is saying he IS mj. saying that he's doing a good impression of MJ is just that... an impression. kobe isn't on MJ's level, but he's not as far behind as a lot of people seem to think.


Yes he is.......he's realistically 60-80% of the player Jordan was. Some Laker fans wait till he has a good game and all the sudden he's 95% of the player he was. Two more good games and he's better.....it's discusting.

Kobe isn't doing a good impression of MJ. He DID a decent one THIS night. He hasn't been DOING a good impression of MJ over the course of the playoffs.....or over the first 9 games......4 or 5 would have been like tonight....which is the key thing you dont seem to understand (that's SEEM; not pretending to KNOW you)


----------



## shobe42

*I don't get whats so bad about this...*

I loved MJ and what makes me such a bigger Kobe fan is hes the only one who can bring back those memories-- and hes solely the only one. I don't think anybody on here really says hes better, but whats wrong with have fun and saying its Jordanesque its the next best thing. 

If hes 90% 80% or 50% who cares people dont wanna forget Mike so theyre gonna compare. nuthin wrong with that


----------



## MarioChalmers

I'm not arguing with anyone, but I think Kobe should develop his own game. I'm not saying that he is trying to become like Mike, but if he is, he should stop. 

But I'm sure Kobe wants to stop all the Jordan comparisons. So we can stop comparing all the great SGs solely to how Michael Jordan played, and start getting more options in the SG Comparison dept.


----------



## JT

I just don't like Kobe, is that a crime?

Fans as well as people in here are calling him more clutch than MJ or Reggie which is annoying and undermines what those guys have done for the game. 

He was clutch for one game that's cool, but MJ's very career is clutch. Last all-star game anybody? Utah 97'?

And WOW, he dropped 40 on the Spurs going one on one. Pair MJ with Shaq, he'd be averaging 50-60 a night playing by his dolo. What he does on the court can't be taken for granted but lets be real here.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes he is.......he's realistically 60-80% of the player Jordan was. Some Laker fans wait till he has a good game and all the sudden he's 95% of the player he was. Two more good games and he's better.....it's discusting.
> 
> Kobe isn't doing a good impression of MJ. He DID a decent one THIS night. He hasn't been DOING a good impression of MJ over the course of the playoffs.....or over the first 9 games......4 or 5 would have been like tonight....which is the key thing you dont seem to understand (that's SEEM; not pretending to KNOW you)


if you'll notice, all i said is that kobe did a good impression of MJ TONIGHT vs the spurs, so direct all of that at someone else. much appreciated.


----------



## Cap

> Originally posted by <b>jtx</b>!
> I just don't like Kobe, is that a crime?
> 
> Fans as well as people in here are calling him more clutch than MJ or Reggie which is annoying and undermines what those guys have done for the game.
> 
> He was clutch for one game that's cool, but MJ's very career is clutch. Last all-star game anybody? Utah 97'?


Like MJ, Kobe's entire career has been chalk full of clutch shots. Do you really want a list, I could probably dig one up on Google? 



> And WOW, he dropped 40 on the Spurs going one on one. Pair MJ with Shaq, he'd be averaging 50-60 a night playing by his dolo. What he does on the court can't be taken for granted but lets be real here.


Give me a break. Kobe routinely was greeted by 2-3 Spurs defenders in the lane. He was breaking down the best (or second best) perimeter defender in the league in Bruce Bowen. He was doing whatever he wanted against the best (or second best) defending big man in the league in Tim Duncan. 

To say MJ would have obviously done better is unprovable hyperbole at best.


----------



## JT

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Like MJ, Kobe's entire career has been chalk full of clutch shots. Do you really want a list, I could probably dig one up on Google?


They've also been full of airballs at the buzzer.



> Give me a break. Kobe routinely was greeted by 2-3 Spurs defenders in the lane.
> To say MJ would have obviously done better is unprovable hyperbole at best.


MJ would have obviously done better. MJ his entire career was breaking down guys like Sidney Moncrief [originator of DPoY award] and the whole Bad Boys *team* back when refs allowed a lot more contact on defense. 

Anyway, I really can't tell you that MJ is more clutch than Kobe, that's he's a better defender, and just a better player because then I'd look like a fool. Its beating horses to death and beating dead horses to life.

But what I CAN tell you is this-both teams played hard. :grinning:


----------



## DaBruins

LB26, you do realize its hard to get 50 point games in the playoffs when you're not the teams #1 option. The fact that he is the #2 option and is still arguably the best player in the league is ridiculous. And yes Kobe is more clutch than Jordan and i'll stand by that. The game against Portland was so incredibly important because if they won it would give the division championship on the last day of the season and a better seeding in the playoffs. And Kobe not only hits 1 Mind blowing buzzer beater to send it to OT, he then hits another Mind blowing buzzer beater in double OT to win the game. Tell me when something like that has ever occured, and not just with Jordan, i mean anyone ever.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> 
> 
> T-Mac's jumpshot is a lot more deadly than Kobe's, and you lost the right to talk about clutchness the moment you not only uttered Kobe's name in the same sentence as Jordan's, but actually said he's more clutch, which is plasphemy. I'm not sure you even understand the meaning of the term.


Many NBA analyst and former greats agree that Kobe has the same sense of deadly killer instinct in the clutch the way Jordan did in his career. While it may be pre-dated to say he's more clutch than Jordan, it's not "*p*lasphemy" to think he's in the same league.


----------



## IV

*Couldn't have said it better myself!*



> Originally posted by <b>shobe42</b>!
> I loved MJ and what makes me such a bigger Kobe fan is hes the only one who can bring back those memories-- and hes solely the only one. I don't think anybody on here really says hes better, but whats wrong with have fun and saying its Jordanesque its the next best thing.
> 
> If hes 90% 80% or 50% who cares people dont wanna forget Mike so theyre gonna compare. nuthin wrong with that


:clap:


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>jtx</b>!
> I just don't like Kobe, is that a crime?


I can live with this!



> Fans as well as people in here are calling him more clutch than MJ or Reggie which is annoying and undermines what those guys have done for the game.


If someone could find a way to verfiy, I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe has had more clutch moments at his age, than either Jordan or Reggie did. If it's undermining them the opposite undermines Kobe because his clutch status is not a figment of anyones imagination. 



> He was clutch for one game that's cool, but MJ's very career is clutch. Last all-star game anybody? Utah 97'?


one game? Come on man, you know he's been clutch more times than once.



> And WOW, he dropped 40 on the Spurs going one on one. Pair MJ with Shaq, he'd be averaging 50-60 a night playing by his dolo. What he does on the court can't be taken for granted but lets be real here.


That's ridiculous. Anyone who plays with a players like Shaq will defer to him. Even Michael Jordan.


----------



## reggie4life

People are acting Like MJ never failed.. I remember so many big games early in his career (While kobe at the same age was winning rings) That MJ missed winning shots against Boston and Detroit!!! Clutchnes to me is defined as someone who steps up when the game is on the line, and Kobe does that ALL the time( Im not saying hes more clutch that MJ, but hes def. the most clutch in the nba right now). Anyways Kobes career average for the playoffs is 22.5 5 and 4. Which yes is behind Jordans, but just remember Kobe came in the league at 17 years old, so if you take away the first 3 years(Becuz jordan didnt come into the league until his 4th year away from hs) that Kobe was in the playofs then compare his averages and rings to Jordans at this age they would prob. favor kobe!!


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>reggie4life</b>!
> People are acting Like MJ never failed.. I remember so many big games early in his career (While kobe at the same age was winning rings) That MJ missed winning shots against Boston and Detroit!!!


It's true, but people forget easily. I can remember the Jordan commercial where he's entering the arena and he's thinking about all the times he had to fail to become the winner he is today. I think he said he missed 21 game winners.




> Clutchnes to me is defined as someone who steps up when the game is on the line, and Kobe does that ALL the time( Im not saying hes more clutch that MJ, but hes def. the most clutch in the nba right now).


There's no denying this. Anyone who'd argue otherwise knows no better.



> Anyways Kobes career average for the playoffs is 22.5 5 and 4. Which yes is behind Jordans, but just remember Kobe came in the league at 17 years old, so if you take away the first 3 years(Becuz jordan didnt come into the league until his 4th year away from hs) that Kobe was in the playofs then compare his averages and rings to Jordans at this age they would prob. favor kobe!!


:yes:


----------



## Showtime84'

"Which yes is behind Jordans, but just remember Kobe came in the league at 17 years old, so if you take away the first 3 years(Becuz jordan didnt come into the league until his 4th year away from hs) that Kobe was in the playofs then compare his averages and rings to Jordans at this age they would prob. favor kobe!!"

Um, to put it in simple terms, HELL NO!!!!!

Here are Kobe's playoff averages from 2000 to 2003:

2000- 21ppg 44%FG 5rbs 4assts

2001- 29ppg 49%FG 7rbs 6 assts

2002- 27ppg 43%FG 6rbs 5assts

2003- 32ppg 43%FG 5rbs 5assts

Here are Jordan's playoff stats his first 4 years:

1985-29ppg 43%FG 6rbs 9assts

1986- 44ppg 51%FG 6rbs 6assts

1987- 36ppg 42FG% 7rbs 6assts

1988- 36ppg 53%FG 7rbs 5assts

Nuff said!


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>DaBruins</b>!
> LB26, you do realize its hard to get 50 point games in the playoffs when you're not the teams #1 option. The fact that he is the #2 option and is still arguably the best player in the league is ridiculous. And yes Kobe is more clutch than Jordan and i'll stand by that. The game against Portland was so incredibly important because if they won it would give the division championship on the last day of the season and a better seeding in the playoffs. And Kobe not only hits 1 Mind blowing buzzer beater to send it to OT, he then hits another Mind blowing buzzer beater in double OT to win the game. Tell me when something like that has ever occured, and not just with Jordan, i mean anyone ever.


Here's michael at the foul line the shot on Ehlo......game, the Bulls win, they win!!!!!!!!!!

As for Jordan......he shot a much higher percentage than Kobe because he took it to the hole every night like Kobe did last night. You always hear "oh Shaq is in the middle clogging the lane..." Shaq was there last night......Kobe did just fine. You must not have knowledge of the number of 40 and 50 point games Jordan got, OR the relatively and remarkably LOW amount of shots it took to get there!!

PEople always say on this board "who is comparing Kobe to MJ, or WHO is saying Kobe is better than MJ?" DING, DING, DING...we have a winner right here.......DaBruins. So next time someone tries to act like nobody does it.......here's exhibit A. Kobe has two more good games and there will be 1000 people doing it, and it is just so annoying it makes me sick!


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> I can live with this!
> 
> 
> 
> If someone could find a way to verfiy, I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe has had more clutch moments at his age, than either Jordan or Reggie did. If it's undermining them the opposite undermines Kobe because his clutch status is not a figment of anyones imagination.
> 
> 
> 
> one game? Come on man, you know he's been clutch more times than once.
> 
> 
> 
> That's ridiculous. Anyone who plays with a players like Shaq will defer to him. Even Michael Jordan.


1.... Jordan had three buzzer beating game winners by age 21. How soon people forget.

2. NO Jordan would not have deferred to shaq.......because Shaq never would have had the justification of "well my way is much higher in percentage" because Jordan was capable of driving on 3 defenders and dunking on another. Of course Shaq is higher % because he's a center, and a dominant one.....but not SO much higher as to be leaps and bounds better than Jordan. For example.......Shaq shot 58% this year, Kobe shot 44% and when Jordan was Kobe's age he shot 53%. And this was with constant triples and quadruples (but usually doubles) because they didn't have to guard anyone. Laker fans always say MJ would have deferred to shaq......they just have no evidence to back it up. By Shaq's age Jordan had 3 mvps.....not 1. Jordan would have started a fistfight with Shaq back in 1996 were he in Kobe's shoes.


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>Showtime84'</b>!
> "Which yes is behind Jordans, but just remember Kobe came in the league at 17 years old, so if you take away the first 3 years(Becuz jordan didnt come into the league until his 4th year away from hs) that Kobe was in the playofs then compare his averages and rings to Jordans at this age they would prob. favor kobe!!"
> 
> Um, to put it in simple terms, HELL NO!!!!!
> 
> Here are Kobe's playoff averages from 2000 to 2003:
> 
> 2000- 21ppg 44%FG 5rbs 4assts
> 
> 2001- 29ppg 49%FG 7rbs 6 assts
> 
> 2002- 27ppg 43%FG 6rbs 5assts
> 
> 2003- 32ppg 43%FG 5rbs 5assts
> 
> Here are Jordan's playoff stats his first 4 years:
> 
> 1985-29ppg 43%FG 6rbs 9assts
> 
> 1986- 44ppg 51%FG 6rbs 6assts
> 
> 1987- 36ppg 42FG% 7rbs 6assts
> 
> 1988- 36ppg 53%FG 7rbs 5assts
> 
> Nuff said!


Exactly showtime......some of these kids get caught up in the fact that the media likes to act like Jordan started playing in 1996. They need to have all Kobe fans attend a class called "Michael Jordan in the 1980s and early 1990s -- From the greatest showman the game has ever seen to the greatest winner (or right there with Russell [though Jordan didn't get to play with 8 hall of famers against teams with 2 hall of famers])"


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>reggie4life</b>!
> People are acting Like MJ never failed.. I remember so many big games early in his career (While kobe at the same age was winning rings) That MJ missed winning shots against Boston and Detroit!!! Clutchnes to me is defined as someone who steps up when the game is on the line, and Kobe does that ALL the time( Im not saying hes more clutch that MJ, but hes def. the most clutch in the nba right now). Anyways Kobes career average for the playoffs is 22.5 5 and 4. Which yes is behind Jordans, but just remember Kobe came in the league at 17 years old, so if you take away the first 3 years(Becuz jordan didnt come into the league until his 4th year away from hs) that Kobe was in the playofs then compare his averages and rings to Jordans at this age they would prob. favor kobe!!


Kobe wasn't winning rings......Shaq and Kobe were winning rings. Don't start with this "Kobe won at the same age that MJ failed" Far is the difference between being the best player on your team and winning a ring, and being on a team with shaq that wins a ring." Then add the fact that these teams "Jordan was FAILING against" had 3 and 5 hall of famers......

Are you really that naive......?


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt

Kobe is not on equal grounds with MJ. But I would be proud of being even remotely close to him, and I think Kobe is.


----------



## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> 1.... Jordan had three buzzer beating game winners by age 21. How soon people forget.
> 
> 2. NO Jordan would not have deferred to shaq.......because Shaq never would have had the justification of "well my way is much higher in percentage" because Jordan was capable of driving on 3 defenders and dunking on another. Of course Shaq is higher % because he's a center, and a dominant one.....but not SO much higher as to be leaps and bounds better than Jordan. For example.......Shaq shot 58% this year, Kobe shot 44% and when Jordan was Kobe's age he shot 53%. And this was with constant triples and quadruples (but usually doubles) because they didn't have to guard anyone. Laker fans always say MJ would have deferred to shaq......they just have no evidence to back it up. By Shaq's age Jordan had 3 mvps.....not 1. Jordan would have started a fistfight with Shaq back in 1996 were he in Kobe's shoes.


it's just unlikely jordan would be able to shoot 53% today. 53% was good for 17th in the league back then (1990). now, 17th in the league is 48.5%.

if jordan came to a team with a dominant shaq, it would be difficult to say the offense needs to run through him. and people would credit some of jordan's success to playing with a dominant big man who makes things easier for him. 

not saying he wouldn't be regarded as the best. just that there'd be naysayers, and there'd be conflict, and mj would have had to play a slightly different game and role.


----------



## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe wasn't winning rings......Shaq and Kobe were winning rings. Don't start with this "Kobe won at the same age that MJ failed" Far is the difference between being the best player on your team and winning a ring, and being on a team with shaq that wins a ring." Then add the fact that these teams "Jordan was FAILING against" had 3 and 5 hall of famers......
> 
> Are you really that naive......?


but just throwing stats around doesn't get us anywhere either. jordan scoring 40 ppg is great, but it's relevant that his team was out in 3 games. jordan scoring less but winning more doesn't mean he's a worse player. jordan's gaudiest stats came when he was arguably a less effective overall player than when his stats were lower. moses went from a 31 ppg player on mediocre teams to a 24.5 ppg scorer on one of the best teams ever. was he worse when his team was better? the stats just don't tell the whole story, and shouldn't be presented like they do.


----------



## reggie4life

> Originally posted by <b>Showtime84'</b>!
> "Which yes is behind Jordans, but just remember Kobe came in the league at 17 years old, so if you take away the first 3 years(Becuz jordan didnt come into the league until his 4th year away from hs) that Kobe was in the playofs then compare his averages and rings to Jordans at this age they would prob. favor kobe!!"
> 
> Um, to put it in simple terms, HELL NO!!!!!
> 
> Here are Kobe's playoff averages from 2000 to 2003:
> 
> 2000- 21ppg 44%FG 5rbs 4assts
> 
> 2001- 29ppg 49%FG 7rbs 6 assts
> 
> 2002- 27ppg 43%FG 6rbs 5assts
> 
> 2003- 32ppg 43%FG 5rbs 5assts
> 
> Here are Jordan's playoff stats his first 4 years:
> 
> 1985-29ppg 43%FG 6rbs 9assts
> 
> 1986- 44ppg 51%FG 6rbs 6assts
> 
> 1987- 36ppg 42FG% 7rbs 6assts
> 
> 1988- 36ppg 53%FG 7rbs 5assts
> 
> Nuff said!


Damn i didnt realize Jordan's numbers were that high then, however what was his win loss % during his first 4 years in the playoffs. People look at points and that doesnt always measure how great a player is. Look at tmac he averaged the most points in the playoffs 2 years ago, and that earned him a seat on the sofa. Like KG said basketball is a team sport, its not like tennis or golf! Who cares how many points u average its what ur team accomplishes..
Ive watched the Jordan Dvd prob 10 times, I love the guy and all that he was about. But michael didnt start winning championships til he realized that he needed to get others involved.


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> 1.... Jordan had three buzzer beating game winners by age 21. How soon people forget.
> 
> 2. NO Jordan would not have deferred to shaq.......because Shaq never would have had the justification of "well my way is much higher in percentage" because Jordan was capable of driving on 3 defenders and dunking on another. Of course Shaq is higher % because he's a center, and a dominant one.....but not SO much higher as to be leaps and bounds better than Jordan. For example.......Shaq shot 58% this year, Kobe shot 44% and when Jordan was Kobe's age he shot 53%. And this was with constant triples and quadruples (but usually doubles) because they didn't have to guard anyone. Laker fans always say MJ would have deferred to shaq......they just have no evidence to back it up. By Shaq's age Jordan had 3 mvps.....not 1. Jordan would have started a fistfight with Shaq back in 1996 were he in Kobe's shoes.


The stats don't back your opinion because the stats are irrelavant. There's only one spot in the triangle offense for a player of Shaq's size and that's on the block. The offense runs from the inside out; Jordan would have defered to Shaq. 



> Kobe wasn't winning rings......Shaq and Kobe were winning rings. Don't start with this "Kobe won at the same age that MJ failed" Far is the difference between being the best player on your team and winning a ring, and being on a team with shaq that wins a ring." Then add the fact that these teams "Jordan was FAILING against" had 3 and 5 hall of famers......
> 
> Are you really that naive......?


He's no more naive than you are claiming that Jordan accomplished all his teams success without crediting his teammates. I know you are a "Jordan is God guy" but he didn't win anything until he had the right core of players around him, just like Kobe and Shaq didnt win anything until they got the extra pieces they needed to win a title.


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> it's just unlikely jordan would be able to shoot 53% today. 53% was good for 17th in the league back then (1990). now, 17th in the league is 48.5%.
> 
> if jordan came to a team with a dominant shaq, it would be difficult to say the offense needs to run through him. and people would credit some of jordan's success to playing with a dominant big man who makes things easier for him.
> 
> not saying he wouldn't be regarded as the best. just that there'd be naysayers, and there'd be conflict, and mj would have had to play a slightly different game and role.


He shot better than Olajuwon and Karl Malone for two seasons.....so why couldn't he shoot that good today? I know you aren't going to get involved in saying todays players are bigger and more athletic......we can go on for days with that one. MJ dominates today. All Shaq means is LESS players could probably get to Jordan as quickly as they did when MJ played.....so it would be to his advantage.


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> but just throwing stats around doesn't get us anywhere either. jordan scoring 40 ppg is great, but it's relevant that his team was out in 3 games. jordan scoring less but winning more doesn't mean he's a worse player. jordan's gaudiest stats came when he was arguably a less effective overall player than when his stats were lower. moses went from a 31 ppg player on mediocre teams to a 24.5 ppg scorer on one of the best teams ever. was he worse when his team was better? the stats just don't tell the whole story, and shouldn't be presented like they do.


Jordan was MORE effective....he didn't have Pippen and Grant yet, and then for two years those two were youngsters learning the ropes. Still based on his % he'd average 40 PPG in the amount of shots that Kobe could take and average just 32 PPG.....


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>reggie4life</b>!
> 
> 
> Damn i didnt realize Jordan's numbers were that high then, however what was his win loss % during his first 4 years in the playoffs. People look at points and that doesnt always measure how great a player is. Look at tmac he averaged the most points in the playoffs 2 years ago, and that earned him a seat on the sofa. Like KG said basketball is a team sport, its not like tennis or golf! Who cares how many points u average its what ur team accomplishes..
> Ive watched the Jordan Dvd prob 10 times, I love the guy and all that he was about. But michael didnt start winning championships til he realized that he needed to get others involved.


NO! MJ didn't have Pippen and Grant those first four years....he had people who took shots.....like Oakley, Woolridge, and for one season he had Gervin (George's last in the NBA [maybe two]), but he just didn't have the team. The team surrounding Jordan for his first four years was arguably about the same team surrounding Eddy Curry right now......terrible.....yet he still made the playoffs and put up a fight. When you look at the fact that he was able to take the 86 Celtics of FIVE hall of famers to overtime with virtually no one on his team, after playing only 17 games in the regular season due to injury.....you have to be amazed.

So are some of you arguing that Kobe......or any player from today for that matter.......could singlehandedly battle teams with 3 and 5 hall of famers??


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> The stats don't back your opinion because the stats are irrelavant. There's only one spot in the triangle offense for a player of Shaq's size and that's on the block. The offense runs from the inside out; Jordan would have defered to Shaq.
> 
> 
> 
> He's no more naive than you are claiming that Jordan accomplished all his teams success without crediting his teammates. I know you are a "Jordan is God guy" but he didn't win anything until he had the right core of players around him, just like Kobe and Shaq didnt win anything until they got the extra pieces they needed to win a title.


Love that argument........"numbers mean nothing when put next to my, the Laker fan's, opinion" Jordan would not have deferred to Shaq......you have nothing to back that up but your own subjective opinion, and your fear of what it would mean to Kobe's image if someone were to show that it would be Shaq that would defer to Jordan.

Yeah but Jordan was the leader.......and Pippen was nowhere near the supporter that Shaq was. AND they weren't beating teams as god awful as the 00 Pacers, 01 Sixers and 02 Nets......much much better teams. Jordan simply didn't need as much talent around him as Kobe, to beat better teams, by bigger margins.....


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Love that argument........"numbers mean nothing when put next to my, the Laker fan's, opinion" Jordan would not have deferred to Shaq......you have nothing to back that up but your own subjective opinion, and your fear of what it would mean to Kobe's image if someone were to show that it would be Shaq that would defer to Jordan.


The arguement has nothing to do with Kobe.


----------



## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> He shot better than Olajuwon and Karl Malone for two seasons.


and worse than benoit benjamin, danny manning, chris mullin, hornacek, thorpe, williams, woolridge, etc. sedale threat had a higher % than hakeem. does that mean i think threat (or vern fleming) would shoot the same % today? no, not really.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Love that argument........"numbers mean nothing when put next to my, the Laker fan's, opinion" Jordan would not have deferred to Shaq......you have nothing to back that up but your own subjective opinion, and your fear of what it would mean to Kobe's image if someone were to show that it would be Shaq that would defer to Jordan.
> 
> Yeah but Jordan was the leader.......and Pippen was nowhere near the supporter that Shaq was. AND they weren't beating teams as god awful as the 00 Pacers, 01 Sixers and 02 Nets......much much better teams. Jordan simply didn't need as much talent around him as Kobe, to beat better teams, by bigger margins.....


are you joking me? of course MJ would have deferred to shaq. MJ shot 50%? very nice. shaq has shot just under 60% almost every year. the offense would have run through shaq, whether you like it or not. the offense runs through the dominant big man, because they get points far more easily and open up the game for everyone else. this is common logic.

if hakeem olajuwon and MJ were on the same team, who would the offense run through? hakeem, obviously, just as it would shaq. please don't let your laker-hatred/MJ-adoration get in the way of simple logic.


----------



## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Jordan was MORE effective....he didn't have Pippen and Grant yet, and then for two years those two were youngsters learning the ropes. Still based on his % he'd average 40 PPG in the amount of shots that Kobe could take and average just 32 PPG.....


so could alot of players from the 80's-early 90s. just extrapolate their fg%'s. dantley could have scored near 50. b. king 45 (and who'd THEY have to play with - imagine them with shaq!).


----------



## reggie4life

The greatest thing Kobe ever did for MJ was send him off with a great farewell present!!


Some people like to call it the Double Nickel


----------



## reggie4life

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Love that argument........"numbers mean nothing when put next to my, the Laker fan's, opinion" Jordan would not have deferred to Shaq......you have nothing to back that up but your own subjective opinion, and your fear of what it would mean to Kobe's image if someone were to show that it would be Shaq that would defer to Jordan.
> 
> Yeah but Jordan was the leader.......and Pippen was nowhere near the supporter that Shaq was. AND they weren't beating teams as god awful as the 00 Pacers, 01 Sixers and 02 Nets......much much better teams. Jordan simply didn't need as much talent around him as Kobe, to beat better teams, by bigger margins.....


Its pretty crappy thing to do to write kobe off and say he wont be better than Jordan. What happens if he retires with say 8 or 9 rings, 2 or 3 mvps 16 all star selections 13 or 14 All nba selections and 10 all nba defenses, will he not be better then?? People need to realize that records are meant to be broken, I mean Barry Bonds came along and proved hes a better player than Willie, Tiger is trying to do it to Jack, and Kobe one day will do it to MJ. Just feel Privliged enough that u were able to see it happen!!


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> and worse than benoit benjamin, danny manning, chris mullin, hornacek, thorpe, williams, woolridge, etc. sedale threat had a higher % than hakeem. does that mean i think threat (or vern fleming) would shoot the same % today? no, not really.


What does showing that Jordan didn't shot as good as two very good guards and a bunch of forwards who weren't bad players show? Chris Mullin was a SF, Manning was a PF/SF, Benjamin was a PF, Woolridge was an SF, Thorpe was a PF......Hornacek and Threatt didn't shoot nearly as much as Jordan. Jordan would shoot as good as he shot today.


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> are you joking me? of course MJ would have deferred to shaq. MJ shot 50%? very nice. shaq has shot just under 60% almost every year. the offense would have run through shaq, whether you like it or not. the offense runs through the dominant big man, because they get points far more easily and open up the game for everyone else. this is common logic.
> 
> if hakeem olajuwon and MJ were on the same team, who would the offense run through? hakeem, obviously, just as it would shaq. please don't let your laker-hatred/MJ-adoration get in the way of simple logic.


Jordan was just a better player........the offense would have run through him the same way Kobe fans WANT it to run through Kobe. He would have created until the double and triple came and then he would have started to dish off to shaq.......it would have been just like the second half was last night for Kobe.....but every night.


----------



## Jordan23

One thing all Kobe Bryant Fans have to take in to consideration is how things have changed.

Kobe Bryant in several interviews has stated basketball isnt as important to him as it use to be. For Kobe to ever to do some of the things he is definitely capable of to reach a Jordan Level will need that Jordan Drive and Passion for the game.

Since the Kobe Bryant Legal trouble in Colorado. It seems to have changed him psychological make up on the court. I dont blame the guy cause now if he is found guilty or not guilty to rape. He will always have a black mark on him. Which is unfortunate because I like Kobe Bryant. I don't think he is any where near Michael Jordan's accomplishments. But he is still very young.

If Kobe Bryant doenst go to prison for rape. He will have to some how some way put all this behind him and get back to his former self with his former passion and agressive winning mentality back on the basketball court to reach MJ's Level.

Only time will tell though.


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> so could alot of players from the 80's-early 90s. just extrapolate their fg%'s. dantley could have scored near 50. b. king 45 (and who'd THEY have to play with - imagine them with shaq!).


What else could those two do though? Could they defend like Jordan? Did they have the passing? The rebounding? The steals? the blocks? The leadership ability?? A lot of players could not do what Jordan did. They may do one thing Jordan did...but that is why we have the 4/7 test with rings/mvps to swing a close contest.

Again you keep saying 'who is comparing Kobe to Jordan' but like I said.....the minute you have one bullet to put in the gun the answer is YOU!!


----------



## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> What else could those two do though? Could they defend like Jordan? Did they have the passing? The rebounding? The steals? the blocks? The leadership ability?? A lot of players could not do what Jordan did. They may do one thing Jordan did...but that is why we have the 4/7 test with rings/mvps to swing a close contest.
> 
> Again you keep saying 'who is comparing Kobe to Jordan' but like I said.....the minute you have one bullet to put in the gun the answer is YOU!!


the point was that other players have been able to put up even better %'s than jordan with little help on bad teams. it doesn't make them better offensive players than jordan, does it? looking at %'s, extrapolating to points scored, it doesn't get us a definitive answer.

where did i compare jordan to kobe? ans: nowhere.


----------



## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> What does showing that Jordan didn't shot as good as two very good guards and a bunch of forwards who weren't bad players show? Chris Mullin was a SF, Manning was a PF/SF, Benjamin was a PF, Woolridge was an SF, Thorpe was a PF......Hornacek and Threatt didn't shoot nearly as much as Jordan. Jordan would shoot as good as he shot today.


you were making a point that jordan shot better than hakeem, so he could do the same thing today. what does that matter when sedale threat shot higher than hakeem? the number of players breaking 50% was significantly higher back then, and it wasn't solely because they were more proficient offensively. 

jordan would have shot a higher % than any other high scoring 2 guard today. he would have shot a relatively high %. but i don't think he puts up 53-54%. it's unlikely based on leaguewide #'s.


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> the point was that other players have been able to put up even better %'s than jordan with little help on bad teams. it doesn't make them better offensive players than jordan, does it? looking at %'s, extrapolating to points scored, it doesn't get us a definitive answer.
> 
> where did i compare jordan to kobe? ans: nowhere.


Yes but......Sedale Threatt? Jeff Hornacek.......these guys were scoring close to Jordan or Kobe? I mean there was a long time that Speedy Claxton was shooting a higher FG% than Kobe this year, but I won't ever use that as ammo because he's speedy claxton.......he's not the focus of defenses and likely doesn't shoot that much, and definitely never with more than one defender on him......


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> you were making a point that jordan shot better than hakeem, so he could do the same thing today. what does that matter when sedale threat shot higher than hakeem? the number of players breaking 50% was significantly higher back then, and it wasn't solely because they were more proficient offensively.
> 
> jordan would have shot a higher % than any other high scoring 2 guard today. he would have shot a relatively high %. but i don't think he puts up 53-54%. it's unlikely based on leaguewide #'s.


League was better back then. You are willing to join arguments talking about how good the league was in 85, 86, 83, etc, but now........Jordan, or any player back then runs parallel to today's player? There were no Eddie Robinson's making big bucks or even decent bucks back then. I mean the league was smaller and teams were better, and Jordan excelled.


----------



## Mattsanity

I don't understand the title of this thread. Does it mean Kobe is approaching Jordan's level? 

In the playoffs, Iverson is the closest guard to Jordan, and next is Carter.

I say Carter because in only 15 career playoff games, he was playing like one of the greatest players ever.


----------



## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> League was better back then. You are willing to join arguments talking about how good the league was in 85, 86, 83, etc, but now........Jordan, or any player back then runs parallel to today's player? There were no Eddie Robinson's making big bucks or even decent bucks back then. I mean the league was smaller and teams were better, and Jordan excelled.


ok - say top to bottom the league was better - that wouldn't mean the best players were significantly better. you'd still expect to have some players at the top who perform comparable or near where they were. you don't see that. top interior players shoot much lower than they did 10 years ago. top perimeter players much lower. it's a leaguewide thing, not just at the lower levels. 

i don't talk about how good the league was in the 80s. i talk about how good certain teams were, how good certain players were, or even how good certain rivalries were. i don't hold tight some notion that the top players were significantly better than top players of other eras.


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> ok - say top to bottom the league was better - that wouldn't mean the best players were significantly better. you'd still expect to have some players at the top who perform comparable or near where they were. you don't see that. top interior players shoot much lower than they did 10 years ago. top perimeter players much lower. it's a leaguewide thing, not just at the lower levels.
> 
> i don't talk about how good the league was in the 80s. i talk about how good certain teams were, how good certain players were, or even how good certain rivalries were. i don't hold tight some notion that the top players were significantly better than top players of other eras.


Point is.....more teams, more players, worse bottom level players, and the percentages are lower......maybe the whole LEAGUE isn't as good as it was.


----------



## reggie4life

> Originally posted by <b>Mattsanity</b>!
> I don't understand the title of this thread. Does it mean Kobe is approaching Jordan's level?
> 
> In the playoffs, Iverson is the closest guard to Jordan, and next is Carter.
> 
> I say Carter because in only 15 career playoff games, he was playing like one of the greatest players ever.


OH god did he really just say that AI and vince are better in the playoffs than Kobe!!! :mrt: 
Every single announcer or head coach last night was saying Kobe is the best wing player in the game by far. But yet there are people on here who think guys that dont make the playoffs in the jv conf are better :sigh:


----------



## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Point is.....more teams, more players, worse bottom level players, and the percentages are lower......maybe the whole LEAGUE isn't as good as it was.


again, the top level players have lower %s as well.


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> again, the top level players have lower %s as well.


And AGAIN....if the TOP LEVEL players of today can't shoot as high a FG% as those from yesteryear WITH PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE WHO WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN IN THE LEAGUE BACK THEN......

MAYBE TODAY's NBA IS WORSE FROM THE BOTTOM to the TOP!

What is so hard to understand about that??


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>reggie4life</b>!
> 
> 
> Its pretty crappy thing to do to write kobe off and say he wont be better than Jordan. What happens if he retires with say 8 or 9 rings, 2 or 3 mvps 16 all star selections 13 or 14 All nba selections and 10 all nba defenses, will he not be better then??


Nope, he wouldn't be better then because he didn't shoot as high of a FG%! :laugh:


----------



## reggie4life

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> And AGAIN....if the TOP LEVEL players of today can't shoot as high a FG% as those from yesteryear WITH PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE WHO WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN IN THE LEAGUE BACK THEN......
> 
> MAYBE TODAY's NBA IS WORSE FROM THE BOTTOM to the TOP!
> 
> What is so hard to understand about that??


Ill agree with that, the NBA sucks now..look at the lakers bench or the whole magic or hawks team, Those guys should be lucky to be in the NBDL! Stupid *** guys like Outlaw lang and Perkins should be in college instead they are taking up spots on the bench!! And now David Stern decides to bring in a new Team -- So 15 MORE players can join the league :sigh: The Nba would be better with like 25 teams at most.
But compare Kobes numbers to the players at his position NOW..not back then!!! I mean wilt averaged 50 pts per game Shaq averaged like 25 or so, so does that mean wilt is twice as good as shaq??


----------



## DaBruins

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Here's michael at the foul line the shot on Ehlo......game, the Bulls win, they win!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> As for Jordan......he shot a much higher percentage than Kobe because he took it to the hole every night like Kobe did last night. You always hear "oh Shaq is in the middle clogging the lane..." Shaq was there last night......Kobe did just fine. You must not have knowledge of the number of 40 and 50 point games Jordan got, OR the relatively and remarkably LOW amount of shots it took to get there!!
> 
> PEople always say on this board "who is comparing Kobe to MJ, or WHO is saying Kobe is better than MJ?" DING, DING, DING...we have a winner right here.......DaBruins. So next time someone tries to act like nobody does it.......here's exhibit A. Kobe has two more good games and there will be 1000 people doing it, and it is just so annoying it makes me sick!


wow you really do like twisting the truth dont you. Tell me when i EVER said Kobe is better than MJ. Please tell me, because the argument isn't even close, MJ is shoulders above everybody. I'm saying Kobe is more clutch and yes he is. Oh and you never answered my question either, did MJ ever do what Kobe did against Portland in such an important game?


----------



## reggie4life

> Originally posted by <b>DaBruins</b>!
> 
> 
> wow you really do like twisting the truth dont you. Tell me when i EVER said Kobe is better than MJ. Please tell me, because the argument isn't even close, MJ is shoulders above everybody. I'm saying Kobe is more clutch and yes he is. Oh and you never answered my question either, did MJ ever do what Kobe did against Portland in such an important game?


On this site i have found out 3 things really quickly!!
(1) Michael Jordan is the greatest thing since slice bread, NO one will EVER be better
(2) Kobe is only good becuz he has shaq, No matter what kobe accomplishes, its no big deal and put any other 2 guard in his spot and they would do the same, even guys who cant make the playoffs in the east.
(3) Lebron is already better than Kobe Bryant becuz people here think Kobe has hit his prime already


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>DaBruins</b>!
> 
> 
> wow you really do like twisting the truth dont you. *Tell me when i EVER said Kobe is better than MJ.* Please tell me, because the argument isn't even close, MJ is shoulders above everybody. I'm saying Kobe is more clutch and yes he is. Oh and you never answered my question either, did MJ ever do what Kobe did against Portland in such an important game?


Don't waste your time Bruin! No one has ever said that Kobe is better than MJ. He can't get passed everyone agreeing upon something as simple as this.


----------



## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> And AGAIN....if the TOP LEVEL players of today can't shoot as high a FG% as those from yesteryear WITH PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE WHO WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN IN THE LEAGUE BACK THEN......
> 
> MAYBE TODAY's NBA IS WORSE FROM THE BOTTOM to the TOP!
> 
> What is so hard to understand about that??


it's just hard to understand why we don't have a single perimeter player today equivalent to guys like johnny dawkins, mugsy bogues, willie anderson, jay humphries, sherman douglas, nick anderson, alvin robertson, sedale threat, vern fleming - all perimeter players who shot a higher % than the highest % for a perimeter player this year. maybe the league doesn't have any players of that caliber.


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Nope, he wouldn't be better then because he didn't shoot as high of a FG%! :laugh:


yeah from ages 21-25 (since Jordan came into the league at 21 and Kobe is 25) he also doesn't have as high of a:

PPG
RPG
APG
SPG
BPG
FT%

So it's not just one things......it's EVERYTHING :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 

Also......Kobe's been in the league 8 years now.....

NO MVP 

What makes people think he's gonna win 3??


----------



## IV

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> it's just hard to understand why we don't have a single perimeter player today equivalent to guys like johnny dawkins, mugsy bogues, willie anderson, jay humphries, sherman douglas, nick anderson, alvin robertson, sedale threat, vern fleming - all perimeter players who shot a higher % than the highest % for a perimeter player this year. maybe the league doesn't have any players of that caliber.


Not really. We still have perimeter players in the league that are nearly as good as Jordan, like Bonzi Wells and Trent Hassel. Bonzi almost shoots as well a % as MJ, but Hassell is clearly better because he shoot around 56%! And they had the nerve to leave these guys off the all nba teams! :whoknows:


----------



## reggie4life

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> yeah from ages 21-25 (since Jordan came into the league at 21 and Kobe is 25) he also doesn't have as high of a:
> 
> PPG
> RPG
> APG
> SPG
> BPG
> FT%
> 
> So it's not just one things......it's EVERYTHING :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
> 
> Also......Kobe's been in the league 8 years now.....
> 
> NO MVP
> 
> What makes people think he's gonna win 3??


It took Barkley 10 years It took Malone 10+years and Shaq around 10 also.. Kobe should be winning one in the next couple years :yes:


----------



## DaBruins

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> yeah from ages 21-25 (since Jordan came into the league at 21 and Kobe is 25) he also doesn't have as high of a:
> 
> PPG
> RPG
> APG
> SPG
> BPG
> FT%
> 
> So it's not just one things......it's EVERYTHING :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
> 
> Also......Kobe's been in the league 8 years now.....
> 
> NO MVP
> 
> What makes people think he's gonna win 3??


one last time before i leave this thread alone, Kobe has the MVP on his team. Its quite difficult to win an mvp when your teammate is the MVP. I dont know anyone who won the award who was the 2nd option on his own team.


----------



## reggie4life

> Originally posted by <b>DaBruins</b>!
> 
> 
> one last time before i leave this thread alone, Kobe has the MVP on his team. Its quite difficult to win an mvp when your teammate is the MVP. I dont know anyone who won the award who was the 2nd option on his own team.


Except in the 4th quater when the game is on the line, Shaq Never touches the ball becuz he is such a huge liability!!


----------



## Mattsanity

> Originally posted by <b>reggie4life</b>!
> 
> 
> OH god did he really just say that AI and vince are better in the playoffs than Kobe!!! :mrt:
> Every single announcer or head coach last night was saying Kobe is the best wing player in the game by far. But yet there are people on here who think guys that dont make the playoffs in the jv conf are better :sigh:


Iverson has always been better than Kobe in the playoffs, you can't deny that. I might be a bit bias for mentioning Vince, but he has been incredible in the playoffs. This has nothing to do with the fact that they didn't make the playoffs this year


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>reggie4life</b>!
> 
> 
> Except in the 4th quater when the game is on the line, Shaq Never touches the ball becuz he is such a huge liability!!


Shaq still wins the team ballgames in fourth quarters. He is the guy who grabbed Kobe's airball and slammed it down for an eventual win against Houston. He still scores in the fourth, rebounds in the fourth, and blocks shots in the fourth.


----------



## Duece Duece

> Originally posted by <b>reggie4life</b>!
> 
> 
> On this site i have found out 3 things really quickly!!
> (1) Michael Jordan is the greatest thing since slice bread, NO one will EVER be better
> (2) Kobe is only good becuz he has shaq, No matter what kobe accomplishes, its no big deal and put any other 2 guard in his spot and they would do the same, even guys who cant make the playoffs in the east.
> (3) Lebron is already better than Kobe Bryant becuz people here think Kobe has hit his prime already




:yes:


----------



## reggie4life

Do you want to compare Shaq's scoring to Kobes scoring in the 4th?? Yea shaq does other things in the 4th, i never said he didnt. I just said kobe is the go to guy.. and thats blantantly obvious!


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>reggie4life</b>!
> Do you want to compare Shaq's scoring to Kobes scoring in the 4th?? Yea shaq does other things in the 4th, i never said he didnt. I just said kobe is the go to guy.. and thats blantantly obvious!


He is the goto guy, but I wouldnt say the entire fourth either. Maybe the last 3 or 4 mins. But the Lakers have also had guys like Fisher, Fox, Horry, Shaq, and even Kareem Rush hit big shot after big shot for them over the past few years.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

*Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> more and more as Kobe gets older with his jumping ability slow down year by year.
> 
> What's with all the turnaround jumpers in the highpost against guys like Bowen, Brown?????
> 
> Anyone noticed it?


Micheal Jordan Never did turn around Jumpers. Bowen is laterally slow

F! Bowen

Frieakin Kobe,


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>reggie4life</b>!
> (2) Kobe is only good becuz he has shaq, No matter what kobe accomplishes, its no big deal and put any other 2 guard in his spot and they would do the same, even guys who cant make the playoffs in the east.


I seriously doubt anyone would argue that Kobe is only good because of Shaq. Even the worst of haters will put him in their top 5 or 6 players in the world.

But a lot of people, including myself, believe there are other players in the league just as good as Kobe and if they had a similiar situation in which to excel, the result could very well be equal or even possibly greater. Problem is, the Kobe lovers refuse to believe that.


----------



## reggie4life

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> I seriously doubt anyone would argue that Kobe is only good because of Shaq. Even the worst of haters will put him in their top 5 or 6 players in the world.
> 
> But a lot of people, including myself, believe there are other players in the league just as good as Kobe and if they had a similiar situation in which to excel, the result could very well be equal or even possibly greater. Problem is, the Kobe lovers refuse to believe that.


JNICE what is your reasoning for TMAC in your opinion the greatest wing player, to lead his team to the worst record in the NBA?? What is your reasoning for once he leaves toronto they make it out of the first round, with a rookie 2 guard startin in his place?? Whats your reasoning that Orlando has gotten worst since Tracy has come to that franchise?? Kobe hits those shots with shaq on the bench as well as in the game, And if you dont think Kobe would average 30+ and easily lead any eastern team to the playoffs you are pretty clueless.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>reggie4life</b>!
> 
> 
> JNICE what is your reasoning for TMAC in your opinion the greatest wing player, to lead his team to the worst record in the NBA?? What is your reasoning for once he leaves toronto they make it out of the first round, with a rookie 2 guard startin in his place?? Whats your reasoning that Orlando has gotten worst since Tracy has come to that franchise?? Kobe hits those shots with shaq on the bench as well as in the game, And if you dont think Kobe would average 30+ and easily lead any eastern team to the playoffs you are pretty clueless.


I never said he was the greatest wing player. If you can find where I did, I'll give you a cookie.

I think he is every bit the player that Kobe is.

The team has gotten worse every year Tmac has been there and ironically enough, so have all the player's around him. They've gotten worse, younger, and less experienced every season and that cannot even be debated.

And Kobe might be able to average 30+ a game without Shaq, I am just saying it shouldnt be assumed he will do so.


----------



## reggie4life

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> I never said he was the greatest wing player. If you can find where I did, I'll give you a cookie.
> 
> I think he is every bit the player that Kobe is.
> 
> The team has gotten worse every year Tmac has been there and ironically enough, so have all the player's around him. They've gotten worse, younger, and less experienced every season and that cannot even be debated.
> 
> And Kobe might be able to average 30+ a game without Shaq, I am just saying it shouldnt be assumed he will do so.


Well his #'s while Shaq were out have gone up, plus when Shaq has fouled out in the playoffs Kobe has led the team to Victories in pressure situations, which tracy has yet to EVER do. So i guess he is pretty good with or without shaq huh?? Anyways Im really expecting the Magic to miss the playoffs again next year and for you to make excuses instead of accepting reality.


----------



## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>reggie4life</b>!
> 
> 
> Well his #'s while Shaq were out have gone up, plus when Shaq has fouled out in the playoffs Kobe has led the team to Victories in pressure situations, which tracy has yet to EVER do. So i guess he is pretty good with or without shaq huh?? Anyways Im really expecting the Magic to miss the playoffs again next year and for you to make excuses instead of accepting reality.


Accepting what reality? That Orlando's team sucks? I already know that.

His numbers while Shaq was out did go up, unfortunately the wins didnt.

And saying Tmac has never led his team to wins is again, completely baseless. He just hasnt done it in the spotlight of LA like Kobe has.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

*Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> Micheal Jordan Never did turn around Jumpers. Bowen is laterally slow
> 
> F! Bowen
> 
> Frieakin Kobe,


What are you talking about? :whofarted Michael Jordan basically invented the turn-around fade-away!


----------



## DaBruins

actually if Kobe was in the RIGHT situation he could almost average 40. We saw last year Kobe had 9 straight games with 40+ points. Not many teams would be able to accomodate Kobe getting 40 every night, but they do exist.


----------



## Spriggan

didn't you guys know? there's a double standard on kobe.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

*Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> 
> 
> What are you talking about? :whofarted Michael Jordan basically invented the turn-around fade-away!


Good post but I am still giving you a 1 rating, so you will never make com mod ++


----------



## JT

A lot of people here trying to force Kobe's greatness down everybody's throats. He's a great player, but lets not forget that he can be replaced with anyone from TMac to VC. Reason being? Shaq.


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>jtx</b>!
> A lot of people here trying to force Kobe's greatness down everybody's throats. He's a great player, but lets not forget that he can be replaced with anyone from TMac to VC. Reason being? Shaq.


you neglect to mention how vince carter is nowhere near kobe's level. the ONLY person you could replace kobe with and still have the 3-peat is t-mac, and even then, that's not a sure thing. kobe has saved the lakers plenty of times in the playoffs with his 4th quarter domination.


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>DaBruins</b>!
> 
> 
> one last time before i leave this thread alone, Kobe has the MVP on his team. Its quite difficult to win an mvp when your teammate is the MVP. I dont know anyone who won the award who was the 2nd option on his own team.


Shaq was MVP........FOUR SEASONS AGO!! LMAO nice try.


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Not really. We still have perimeter players in the league that are nearly as good as Jordan, like Bonzi Wells and Trent Hassel. Bonzi almost shoots as well a % as MJ, but Hassell is clearly better because he shoot around 56%! And they had the nerve to leave these guys off the all nba teams! :whoknows:


Are those two the focus? Are they complete players? Do they have all the things Kobe and Jordan have IN COMMON like rings? If one of them were the player Jordan was IN EVERY OTHER ASPECT but in FG% they were BETTER.....then they'd be BETTER PLAYERS. Surely you can do better than false analogies....


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>Duece Duece</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :yes:


You nod but I don't think Jordan fans are saying that no one will ever be better.....I don't know. I'd like to think it would be pretty hard, but who knows......because of all the things you have to combine it will be very difficult. You need to combine a player who is tall enough to embody the size and strength of a forward, with PG quickness, long arms, big hands, mind boggling hops, a very gifted basketball mind and court vision, and fundamentals learned from a master like Dean Smith......then you need to fuse that with a desire that can't be taught and borders on insane unhealthy obsession. A desire to win at all costs. A desire that I have only ever seen in Bird, Jordan and Russell. Magic didn't even have it. It's that look you can sometimes see in still photos of one of those three players making such a maniacal grimace that you swear you've looked into the eyes of a madman....ive seen it on a still photo of Russell and it's scary. 

That being said.......

Someone could be better than Jordan......but they have to BE BETTER than him. That means present tense, and past tense. Only when that player has done it on the same level or better for 12 years can we look back and say.......he was better. So far Kobe is 25 years old and has had one season that you could call on par with MJ up to age 25......EVERY YEAR of MJ up to age 25, with the obvious exception of the year he was gone for nearly the entire season with a broken leg 85-86. When a player actually does it.......night in and night out....I'll be the first to admit he's better. But he has to have the performances night in and night out. It can't be every fourth game is a reasonable facsimile of MJ......it has to be EVERY GAME


----------



## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Shaq was MVP........FOUR SEASONS AGO!! LMAO nice try.


shaq is a perennial MVP candidate. i'm pretty sure that's what he was referring to. you're really reaching here.


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>DaBruins</b>!
> actually if Kobe was in the RIGHT situation he could almost average 40. We saw last year Kobe had 9 straight games with 40+ points. Not many teams would be able to accomodate Kobe getting 40 every night, but they do exist.


See........this is the kind of crap I am talking about. NO Kobe could not average 40. Kobe had 9 games where he averaged 40 last year. He also started the 2002-03 season in 12 games, without Shaq, and averaged 29 PPG while going 3-9. So forget about what you THINK he could do.....there is just as much, if not more, evidence that Kobe couldn't average over 30 without O'neal. Why would you even want Kobe to play on a team so bad that he could approach 40......as a Kobe fan? Why? Kobe can be as good as he wants......and if he averages high points and loses all the time he's gonna be on the Gervin plan just like "Psyche, you thought I was gonna play defense, ha ha" McGrady. Gervin was a fine player........but Kobe is on his way to being better than Gervin and "No-D Whack" (or Tracy McGrady).

Please McGrady fans......don't try to get in this discussion. Kobe Bryant will never be better than 80% of what Jordan was (same age)......but he's eons better than McGrady. Kobe is all NBA defense. McGrady's game is confined to the offensive end of the floor. So assume you rated both players a 9 offensively......Kobe would get an 8 or 9 defensively (numbers being based on the standards of CURRENT players and not the likes of MJ....), and McGrady would get a 4. 

One day Eddy Curry is gonna be able to score down low pretty darn close to O'neal (IMHO), but it's not gonna matter if he doesn't move his butt on defense. I mean every team wants a center like Curry that can abuse single teams consistently.....but Curry will never even be 50% of what Shaq was if he doesn't play D. I know some of you think Curry is pigsh*t.......and you are certainly entitled after the egg he laid last year, until further notice, but I was trying to form an analogy to drive the point home to McGrady fans......if someone can think of a better one I am all ears. I think whether or not you think Eddy will ever amount to anything....the analogy makes the proper point.

And that is.....

Great offense doesnt' equal great player without at least good defense.


----------



## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> shaq is a perennial MVP candidate. i'm pretty sure that's what he was referring to. you're really reaching here.


Then say.....perennial MVP candidate.......

Wanna note the McGahee v. Dorsey thing.......go ahead.....but don't say MVP......


----------



## John

Good post, Jordan fan.

But fans, kids or adults need to come in and understand why skills are being developed?


Jordan VS Kobe.

Interms of slashing, PLAIN slashing. the only player that we can compare with Jordan in his prime is Vince Carter.

Both Jordan and Vince had the ability to get by and dunk on guys anytime they want here. It's hard to ask them to hold his "game" for some mid range jumpers when attacking.

But Kobe, a great athlete but not at the level of Vince and Jordan, had to develop his mid-range game much younger because he just coudnt plain flying to the basket for dunks and sh!ts!

Of course Jordan was a much better dribbler than Vince which helped Jordan much better when escaping from all the double teamsand tripple team.

The triple team from Knicks on Vince mostly based on the lack of talents in the Raps, the explosive one on one scoer Vince was, but also his lack of dribbling ability to find himself being a threat under tripple team situations. (Vince has improved in this area much better this yearm, but then it's his kness that hold him back.)

Anyway, Kobe plays the style that works well in the NBA, but he plays like that because he has to. But Jordan didnt play like that until the 96 season, because in his prime, he is the combination of Kobe and Vince Carter.

Kobe will never be as good as Jordan!!!


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## John

*Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> Micheal Jordan Never did turn around Jumpers. Bowen is laterally slow
> 
> F! Bowen
> 
> Frieakin Kobe,


Why freaking hate me because of the 1 rating I have you? Did u really have to care abou the rating system? Okay, you need me to buy some CS guys to hack into the system so that you can have the full rating once again?

Beside, I will try to be more assertive if you are 16-17 years old kid.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

*Re: Re: Re: Kobe is starting to get behind from Jordan...*



> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> Why freaking hate me because of the 1 rating I have you? Did u really have to care abou the rating system? Okay, you need me to buy some CS guys to hack into the system so that you can have the full rating once again?
> 
> Beside, I will try to be more assertive if you are 16-17 years old kid.


Can you buy me some CS guys please, I mean I prefer C++ guru's but Java proficient bean writers will do, I must have this rating system I live for it, I am certainly not poking fun at your ridiculous behavior I am only concerned about ratings and spreading warm fuzzy feelings.


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## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> Good post, Jordan fan.
> 
> But fans, kids or adults need to come in and understand why skills are being developed?
> 
> 
> Jordan VS Kobe.
> 
> Interms of slashing, PLAIN slashing. the only player that we can compare with Jordan in his prime is Vince Carter.
> 
> Both Jordan and Vince had the ability to get by and dunk on guys anytime they want here. It's hard to ask them to hold his "game" for some mid range jumpers when attacking.
> 
> But Kobe, a great athlete but not at the level of Vince and Jordan, had to develop his mid-range game much younger because he just coudnt plain flying to the basket for dunks and sh!ts!
> 
> Of course Jordan was a much better dribbler than Vince which helped Jordan much better when escaping from all the double teamsand tripple team.
> 
> The triple team from Knicks on Vince mostly based on the lack of talents in the Raps, the explosive one on one scoer Vince was, but also his lack of dribbling ability to find himself being a threat under tripple team situations. (Vince has improved in this area much better this yearm, but then it's his kness that hold him back.)
> 
> Anyway, Kobe plays the style that works well in the NBA, but he plays like that because he has to. But Jordan didnt play like that until the 96 season, because in his prime, he is the combination of Kobe and Vince Carter.
> 
> Kobe will never be as good as Jordan!!!


Kobe knows about this thing called defense though. Vince and T-Whack don't. And also....while Kobe has missed some time.....he doesn't have a Gine like Vince.......so he doesn't miss big chunks of every season due to injury


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## DaBruins

i was referring to perennial MVP candidate but forget that because everyone knows that Shaq is the MVP regardless of who has won the award the last few years. He is still the most dominant force and changes the entire game. That equals MVP. Does anyone honestly think Kobe couldn't average 30 on his own team? I'm not saying its best for the team to have him get 30, thats another issue but 30 would be a given. Yes kobe did average 29 in those first 12 games, and 29 does not equal 30 but thats just semantics. Average like the 40+ he had in 9 games and the 29 in those 12 games and thats pretty high up there in the 30's. Kobes numbers would be more comparable to Jordans if he was on his own team and i hope we could all agree with that. The whole point of this Kobe debate is that he has the most potential anyone ever saw after MJ. Their careers are vastly different however and just because their games are the similar doesn't mean you can make that comparison.

For you, LB26, to honestly say you think Curry will be Shaq-like on offense is more blasphemous than saying Kobe almost equals MJ.

BTW, if Kobe was on Orlando instead of TMAC, i truthfully believe he would average 35. And somewhere along the way he would be getting almost 40. Almost.


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## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>DaBruins</b>!
> i was referring to perennial MVP candidate but forget that because everyone knows that Shaq is the MVP regardless of who has won the award the last few years. He is still the most dominant force and changes the entire game. That equals MVP. Does anyone honestly think Kobe couldn't average 30 on his own team? I'm not saying its best for the team to have him get 30, thats another issue but 30 would be a given. Yes kobe did average 29 in those first 12 games, and 29 does not equal 30 but thats just semantics. Average like the 40+ he had in 9 games and the 29 in those 12 games and thats pretty high up there in the 30's. Kobes numbers would be more comparable to Jordans if he was on his own team and i hope we could all agree with that. The whole point of this Kobe debate is that he has the most potential anyone ever saw after MJ. Their careers are vastly different however and just because their games are the similar doesn't mean you can make that comparison.
> 
> For you, LB26, to honestly say you think Curry will be Shaq-like on offense is more blasphemous than saying Kobe almost equals MJ.
> 
> BTW, if Kobe was on Orlando instead of TMAC, i truthfully believe he would average 35. And somewhere along the way he would be getting almost 40. Almost.


Two three years from now when Shaq is done.....it's gonna be Eddy and Yao. Eddy will be the player who reminds us most of what Shaq was able to do on offense.....NOT because he's gonna be shaq-like......just because he's gonna be closer than anyone else. Unless you were going to argue that like Pavel Podkolzine was gonna be the player that reminds us.....? But it won't matter if Eddy doesn't learn to D up, because he could score like Shaq on offense and not even be considered the player Ewing was if he doesn't at least play adequate D.

As for your disbelief.....I thought I put enough disclaimers in there for even you to understand Laker fan. But hey its cool......go ask Laker fan if Michael Jordan could be better than Magic one day when Michael was 21 like Eddy and Laker fan flips his lid. After all......how could a selfish player like Jordan EVER be as good as the "do it all man" Magic. He's such an all-around player that Magic. He has eyes behind his head......he doesn't just score......he looks to set his teammates up. Please don't suggest Jordan could ever be HALF the player Magic is. 

To say Jordan could ever be considered better than Tragic and Jabblunt.....those were the days.


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>DaBruins</b>!
> 
> 
> one last time before i leave this thread alone, Kobe has the MVP on his team. Its quite difficult to win an mvp when your teammate is the MVP. I dont know anyone who won the award who was the 2nd option on his own team.


Exactly, another good example would be John Stockton. I don't think anyone would undermine Stockton as the great point guard he is, but the MVP of his teams was Karl Malone. Since the game is best played from the inside out, Karl should shine, but that's isn't to say John didn't have a major role in Karl Winning the those MVP awards.


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Shaq still wins the team ballgames in fourth quarters. He is the guy who grabbed Kobe's airball and slammed it down for an eventual win against Houston. He still scores in the fourth, rebounds in the fourth, and blocks shots in the fourth.


This is true, Shaq is not a total liability in the 4th, but we all know who the Lakers most valueble player is come crunch time.


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> He is the goto guy, but I wouldnt say the entire fourth either. Maybe the last 3 or 4 mins. But the Lakers have also had guys like Fisher, Fox, Horry, Shaq, and even Kareem Rush hit big shot after big shot for them over the past few years.


It really depends on the score of the game. If LA is behind in the 4th, Phil usually gives Kobe the green light to bring them back. If the score is close, they tend to run the offense through Shaq to keep the teams familiar sceme in place.


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> I seriously doubt anyone would argue that Kobe is only good because of Shaq. Even the worst of haters will put him in their top 5 or 6 players in the world.


:yes:



> But a lot of people, including myself, believe there are other players in the league just as good as Kobe and if they had a similiar situation in which to excel, the result could very well be equal or even possibly greater. Problem is, the Kobe lovers refuse to believe that.


We don't refuse to believe this, it's just hard to understand how you can do better than winning the title, being an allstar, and being first team all nba on both sides of the ball? Plus, the more you contend that other players can do what Kobe has done the more it undermines his accomplishments. The one thing a Kobe fan can't stand is a when fans of other players let their guys live vicariously through Kobe. When they accomplish what Kobe's done, they'll get their props... but until then I have a hard time saying Drexler is as Great as Jordan because he could have won 6 rings, countless MVPs, blah, blah, blah... if he had a great coach like Phil Jackson and the right players around him like Pippen, Rodman, etc.


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## JT

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> This is true, Shaq is not a total liability in the 4th, but we all know who the Lakers most valueble player is come crunch time.


Dick Bavetta?


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## IV

Guess again! :dead:


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## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly, another good example would be John Stockton. I don't think anyone would undermine Stockton as the great point guard he is, but the MVP of his teams was Karl Malone. Since the game is best played from the inside out, Karl should shine, but that's isn't to say John didn't have a major role in Karl Winning the those MVP awards.


Karl won one MVP award


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Karl won one MVP award


Karl Malone won the National Basketball Association Most Valueble Player award twice. The first was in *1996-1997*, and second was in *1998-1999.*


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## LB26matrixns

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Karl Malone won the National Basketball Association Most Valueble Player award twice. The first was in *1996-1997*, and second was in *1998-1999.*


Ahhhh yes......I almost forgot the "asterisk season" as Laker fan likes to call it.


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## DaBruins

well to answer your previous statement LB26, i still believe Magic is the best basketball PLAYER and that Jordan is the best basketball SCORER with Bird being the best basketball SHOOTER of all the time. The fact that they were all in the league together for several years made for some exciting times.


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## Spriggan

> Originally posted by <b>DaBruins</b>!
> well to answer your previous statement LB26, i still believe Magic is the best basketball PLAYER and that Jordan is the best basketball SCORER with Bird being the best basketball SHOOTER of all the time. The fact that they were all in the league together for several years made for some exciting times.


classifying MJ as just "the best basketball scorer" is greatly undermining his accomplishments and talent.


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## JNice

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> We don't refuse to believe this, it's just hard to understand how you can do better than winning the title, being an allstar, and being first team all nba on both sides of the ball? Plus, the more you contend that other players can do what Kobe has done the more it undermines his accomplishments. The one thing a Kobe fan can't stand is a when fans of other players let their guys live vicariously through Kobe. When they accomplish what Kobe's done, they'll get their props... but until then I have a hard time saying Drexler is as Great as Jordan because he could have won 6 rings, countless MVPs, blah, blah, blah... if he had a great coach like Phil Jackson and the right players around him like Pippen, Rodman, etc.


You might not refuse to believe it, but others do. At least you make some sense, unlike some of your other comrades.

I dont think Drexler vs Jordan is a good comparison in this argument. I dont consider Jordan greater because of the rings he won. I think Jordan was better because I saw them play and it was pretty obvious who the greater player was.

Watching Kobe and Tmac on the court, there isnt that separation in abilities. The two are nearly identical on the court and the only thing that really separates them is the teams they have played with. The only personal ability I would be willing to concede to Kobe is defensively. Although Tmac has the ability, he tends to not use it at times. Of course, neither does Kobe, but when Kobe does it, it is usually at the end of a big game on national TV for everyone to see it.


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## VCHighFly

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> classifying MJ as just "the best basketball scorer" is greatly undermining his accomplishments and talent.


To say the least! He belongs in the discussion of best defensive players of all-time, too. Not to mention rebounding and court vision.


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## WhoDaBest23

*Better creator: Jordan or Kobe?*

Who is better at creating and getting his teammates involved, Jordan or Kobe? Everyone knows that they're both superior offensive players, but in terms of creating for their teammates, who's better?

For stat lovers...

Jordan's assists
Career: 5.3 APG
Season: 8.0 APG
Game: 17

Kobe's assists
Career: 4.3 APG
Season: 5.9 APG
Game: 15


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## Tragedy

Jordan. 

For the sheer fact that i cannot remember a game where jordan looked to assist only because he didnt wanna take shots, in a selfish attempt to appear unselfish.


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## Minstrel

Merged. We don't need *another* "Kobe vs." thread.


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## JT

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Merged. We don't need *another* "Kobe vs." thread.


It should be Kobe vs. Pippen.


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## Pinball

How about Kobe vs. the world? Maybe the media was right about Kobe, or should I say "RamKo".


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## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>jtx</b>!
> 
> 
> Dick Bavetta?




:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Ahhhh yes......I almost forgot the "asterisk season" as Laker fan likes to call it.


I am a Laker fan, and I have never once undermined the Spurs championship or any other acheivement awarded to any player that season. Enough with the stereotypes.


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## IV

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> You might not refuse to believe it, but others do. At least you make some sense, unlike some of your other comrades.
> 
> I dont think Drexler vs Jordan is a good comparison in this argument. I dont consider Jordan greater because of the rings he won. I think Jordan was better because I saw them play and it was pretty obvious who the greater player was.


:yes:



> Watching Kobe and Tmac on the court, there isnt that separation in abilities. The two are nearly identical on the court and the only thing that really separates them is the teams they have played with. The only personal ability I would be willing to concede to Kobe is defensively. Although Tmac has the ability, he tends to not use it at times. Of course, neither does Kobe, but when Kobe does it, it is usually at the end of a big game on national TV for everyone to see it.


I've always contended that,(while I might be a Kobe fan, and may be biased,) the difference between Tracy and Kobe is defense and clutch performance history. They are on an even plane outside of those two areas.


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