# The Ammo bandwagon



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

I'm sick of being on the fence. I'm picking my pony. He's Adam Morrison and this is his bandwagon.

Put your weight behind it.

I'd rather have a good player that cares than a great player that doesn't.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

Wow, that's bold. Repped, not because I agree, but I love boldness.

edit: what the hell is the point of that spreading rep around bull----. Christ.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

First thing that comes to mind:
"I'd rather have Adam Morrison than Tyrus Thomas."


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

I'm no hater of the 'stache.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

I am not sure he is the perfect fit in Toronto, but he is my favorite player in the draft!

I would not be upset seeing him lace them up for us.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

As of today, Morrison is only working out for Toronto, Chicago, Charlotte and Portland.

Morrison's agent, Mark Bartelstein, guarantees that Morrison's diabetes will be a non-issue in the NBA with a regiment of proper dieting and insulin.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

This is going to sound really bad, but after watching quite a few Zaga games this year and seeing the highlight reels of Bargnani, the two players seem somewhat similar. The biggest difference being the 4 inch height difference.
-They're both really crafty on offence, not super quick or amazing leapers but score in many different ways. Sometimes it doesn't look all that pretty, but effective.
-They both have a really high release on their shot, making it hard to block.
-They're both white.
-They're both lanky.
-Both expected to be defensive liabilities at the offensive end.
-I haven't followed Bargnani enough to know about his demeanor and work ethic, which really set Ammo apart from a lot of other players, so I can't make a comparison on this.

Okay, it's late and maybe there's nothing to this. But does anyone else see this.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

On a team that lacks leadership and intesity the Raps could do a lot worse than AMMO.

Kudos for Speedy for coming out and declairing his pick for the Raps.

I'm still on the fence, but AMMO is someone who I've wanted on this team for quite a while.










I love this pic, gonna use it as my next avy.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Team Mao said:


> -I haven't followed Bargnani enough to know about his demeanor and work ethic, which really set Ammo apart from a lot of other players, so I can't make a comparison on this.
> 
> Okay, it's late and maybe there's nothing to this. But does anyone else see this.


That's the biggest diff for me, is that I've seen Morrison hit amazing clutch shots for two years now, I haven't had that luxury with Bargnani.


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

sorry to ruin your party boys...

give me an Aldridge.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

I don't think he's going to be that great, which is why I had to subscribe to this thread. Just in case on the rare occasion.. that I'm right.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

I dont care for Morisson, but if Aldridge doesnt want to be in t.o. gimme AMMO!


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## Ballyhoo (May 30, 2003)

He's got the best intangibles in the draft. From a tangible standpoint he doesn't seem to fit the Raptors (we have scoring, need defense), but we need the intangibles too. I don't think Kobe would have scored 81 if we had Morrison on the team. 81 points doesn't only come from a lack of defense, it's from a lack of intensity, and that's what Morrison would bring. 

However, that said, I think there are better options first overall.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

There is a really good Katz article up on ESPN.com right now (link) that takes you through a day in the life of Adam in the weeks leading up to the draft.

Interesting to note he's been working out with Devean George and Danny Granger, two long-limbed defensive players with shooting range. Also gets the info out that Ammo might be a spokesperson for Type-1 Diabetes, much like Charlie is the spokesperson for Alopecia Areata.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

speedy's top-ten reasons to draft Adam Morrison:

10. *Marketability* -- Because of the 'stache, the hockey hair, the facial expressions; Ammo would be a fan favourite right out of the gate and would challenge JYD and the Red Rocket for most popular cult sports figure in Toronto.
09. *Fit* -- Because one of the best scorers in college history would make a perfect compliment to the inside game Chris Bosh and Charlie Villanueva continue to develop. All three players have shooting range and can play at the same time wreaking havoc for opposing defenses--who do you sag off? You can't.
08. *Experience* -- Because two Olympians are better than one.
07. *Character* -- Because Ammo gets the spotlight for all the right reasons. Class act. Leader. Team-first. Has what it takes to succeed.
06. *Intensity* -- Because he plays every game like it's his last. At the risk of sounding utterly cliche, he leaves everything on the floor each game. Will spill his blood for the name on the front of his jersey, not the back.
05. *Desire* -- Because he wants to be the first pick. He wants to be a great player. He wants to emulate Larry Bird. It's one thing to be able to do it--another entirely to have the desire to follow through.
04. *Skill* -- Because he is the best player to come out of college basketball since Carmelo Anthony, the best scorer in a decade, and the quintessential small-school hero.
03. *Success* -- Because he doesn't just have what it takes, he gets it done. Led the Bulldogs to a 14-0 conference record and a 29-4 total record. Got the Zags a 3rd seed in the NCAA tournament where they were eventually beaten in a comeback victory by the favoured UCLA Bruins.
02. *Heart* -- Because it is so big it burst at the end of the UCLA game. "I've been told, 'Don't let that emotion leave,' and hopefully it doesn't. I use it to my advantage and play with that emotion every night. I hate losing..."
01. *Demand* -- Because I said so.​


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## Lope31 (Jun 11, 2002)

If the Raptors get AmMo than they might aswell do all in their power to acquire AK47, or else it just doesn't seem worth it.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

has Aldridge said anything yet on where he prefers to go? or he has'nt saif =d anything, have we worked him out yet?


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Damn speedy, your doing a nice job of convincing me.


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## VTRapsfan (Dec 5, 2004)

Team Mao said:


> This is going to sound really bad, but after watching quite a few Zaga games this year and seeing the highlight reels of Bargnani, the two players seem somewhat similar. The biggest difference being the 4 inch height difference.
> -They're both really crafty on offence, not super quick or amazing leapers but score in many different ways. Sometimes it doesn't look all that pretty, but effective.
> -They both have a really high release on their shot, making it hard to block.
> -They're both white.
> ...


I don't know about Ammo over Aldridge, but I'd take him over Bargnani. If they are in fact equal talents it would be a toss-up, but Ammo is a SG/SF, while Bargnani is a PF/SF. Anyone who knows the Raps at all knows that we are much deeper at 4 than at 2.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

Sorry Speedy, had to do it.....










next great white hype? or just overhyped?

sorry can't co-sign with this pick

I'd take both Gay and Roy ahead of this guy, I think Morrison's game will not translate as well to the NBA as these two.


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

TRON said:


> Sorry Speedy, had to do it.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i said it in the past and i said it again... the guy spent the last couple of seconds of the game crying instead of playing ball... they coould've still won the game, but he decided to cry...


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

Pick Rudy Gay!!!!


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Guess who NBADraft.net has going #1?

:biggrin:


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

speedythief said:


> Guess who NBADraft.net has going #1?
> 
> :biggrin:


So you're Aran Smith. I never would've guessed before today. :biggrin:


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## Flush (Jul 25, 2005)

speedythief said:


> Guess who NBADraft.net has going #1?
> 
> :biggrin:





> There's a good chance the Portland Trailblazers or another team will trade up to the number one spot and select Adam Morrison. Sitting at the 4th position, Portland fears another team will make a move with a top 3 team (Charlotte perhaps) to grab Morrison in front of them. Portland could offer Jarrett Jack and an additional first rounder to move up.


http://nbadraft.net/draftbuzz060.asp

I think they are basing this more on the prospect of someone else trading up to grab Morrison. I like AMMO, I just don't think he is a Colangelo type or the best option available. If he can prove himself in workouts (I love the fact that he is taking on the top prospects) then I may reconsider my stance.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Flush said:


> http://nbadraft.net/draftbuzz060.asp
> 
> I think they are basing this more on the prospect of someone else trading up to grab Morrison. I like AMMO, I just don't think he is a Colangelo type or the best option available. If he can prove himself in workouts (I love the fact that he is taking on the top prospects) then I may reconsider my stance.


I'll take that deal.

Sorry. I'm not up for this either. Of course his agent is gonna say his illness won't be a problem. I'm not going to debate it, but what else is he going to say?

I'm for whatever BC wants. He has a complete vision. If that's AM, so be it. But AB, JJ and a future first sounds better to me as a hypothetical.


.net also talked about moving down more than once. 1 to 4 then maybe to 7-9.(?)

I know I was in this camp a LONG time ago. Unprotected 07 first, Jack, Shelden Williams + something else? 

BC still talks about D and toughness, I don't know ****, but BC certainly knows Shelden via Daddy and MK.


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## The_Notic (Nov 10, 2005)

speedythief said:


> I'd rather have a good player that cares than a great player that doesn't.


Nicely Put.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Morrison next to Charlie = big defensive liability.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

vigilante said:


> Morrison next to Charlie = big defensive liability.


I hope we get to see for ourselves.


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## Flush (Jul 25, 2005)

vigilante said:


> Morrison next to Charlie = big defensive liability.



If Charlie and AMMO are on the floor at the same time, they would be at the 4/5. Charlie has proven that he is an adequate defender against most 4's in the league. His defensive problems were at the 3. 

I also think that Morrison is a better defender than he gets credit for. His positioning is very good. He isn't a shut down defender by any means, but a good team defender.

Still not on this banwagon (FTR)


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## Flush (Jul 25, 2005)

Draftexpress.com's AMMO workout:

http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1327

90/110 from the NBA 3 point line. Wow.

I'm so confused


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Holy smokes, this guy is looking better all the time. nice read, btw.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Everyone knows the kid can shoot/score, so the high percentage in shots (guarded/unguarded) doesn't really impress me.

What did impress me though was how fundamentally sound he is.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

speedythief said:



> 02. *Heart* -- Because it is so big it burst at the end of the UCLA game. "I've been told, 'Don't let that emotion leave,' and hopefully it doesn't. I use it to my advantage and play with that emotion every night. I hate losing..."\


Remember this factor also made him cry with two seconds left in the game. His lack of composure concerns me more then his heart.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

didn't know where else to post it so i guess i'll blurt it out here: i love watching these hype machines go to work- at least this year (with the 1). just over the past week, our pick has earned a lot more value on the market. it probably has a few peaks and dips left to travel but i'm expecting that, come june 28, the 1 will be in its heaviest demand. from some of the early rumours, there might even be a bidding war of some kind- it'd make complete sense considering the teams involved- and we'd be the direct beneficiaries.

i'm just loving the 1. the machines'll continue to work their magic (some players are _without a doubt_ far more ready for pro basketball than they were 6 weeks ago!) and it'll be great for our team- i mean, we're bound to get the player we want anyway. to think that we might get something else on top of said player is just a bonus that we couldn't have even planned for... oh... about two weeks ago.

i won't take our current position for granted. this is great stuff for the toronto raptors.

peace


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

I certainly will say Morrison > Gay.


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## no_free_baskets (Jan 4, 2006)

Flush said:


> Draftexpress.com's AMMO workout:
> 
> http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1327
> 
> ...


just read the article...just looking at the raw numbers, im pretty sure they miscaculated that...i mean how can you have so many 5/8 and be over 80%??


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## no_free_baskets (Jan 4, 2006)

i guess just to be anal about this, i quickly caculated his numbers to be 75/110, which comes out to roughly 68%...still very good, but most of us already knew he was a good offensive player so no big surprise...

for those morrison backers (im obviously not), what i would be slightly concerned about in this article is that some nobody pf was able to "get a hand in almost everyshot" morrison took...this speaks volumes to me about morrison athleticism...this article doesnt really do much for me really...i mean who cares that he can score against some nobody pf...i much rather hear hows he doing vs. granger n george in his other workouts...


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

now at #1 1 at nbadraft.net.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

no_free_baskets said:


> for those morrison backers (im obviously not), what i would be slightly concerned about in this article is that some nobody pf was able to "get a hand in almost everyshot" morrison took...this speaks volumes to me about morrison athleticism...this article doesnt really do much for me really...i mean who cares that he can score against some nobody pf...i much rather hear hows he doing vs. granger n george in his other workouts...


i guess it makes sense, but think about it: does that mean that adam had nothing to gain by attending this workout? if so, i simply give him points for that- he has nothing to gain ("who cares that he can score against some nobody pf"), everything to lose ("some nobody pf was able to get a hand in almost every shot") and he still does it.

you could call that bad management on the part of his agent, you might have a decent point there, but it's admirable no matter how you look at it. he's willing and really doesn't appear to be fazed or put much weight behind the opinions of his critics.

personally, i'm not going to criticize the choice of any of these players to attend _any_ workout session. i'd rather they go in with a ball of steam and show what they can do and what they _want_ to do. i'm not going to blame them when they bet it all on an empty pot.

peace


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

blowuptheraptors said:


> I certainly will say Morrison > Gay.


We'll see I guess when they workout together.


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## no_free_baskets (Jan 4, 2006)

ballocks said:


> i guess it makes sense, but think about it: does that mean that adam had nothing to gain by attending this workout? if so, i simply give him points for that- he has nothing to gain ("who cares that he can score against some nobody pf"), everything to lose ("some nobody pf was able to get a hand in almost every shot") and he still does it.
> 
> you could call that bad management on the part of his agent, you might have a decent point there, but it's admirable no matter how you look at it. he's willing and really doesn't appear to be fazed or put much weight behind the opinions of his critics.
> 
> ...


oh i dont fault morrison at all for putting up this workout..it doesnt bother me in the least...just for me personally, it doesnt prove much to me that he can score on a pf that nobodies heard of...and even thou i dont really like morrison as an option to the raps, i certainly admire his moxie...he certainly doesnt look like he will duck anyone in this draft, which is pretty cool to see...


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by *Ballocks !*
> 
> i love watching these hype machines go to work-


yep, by the time all these glowing articles come out, just about all the prospects will have their turn at the #1 spot

workouts will be fun, I wish I had access!


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Defense?
Will he defend as well as Wally Szerbiak?

Athleticism?
Will he be as athletic as Mike Dunleavy?

Do all great, clutch college players make good clutch NBA players?

Ammo as first overall?

Never gonna happen.

I think Ammo is a little better than Kyle Korver though.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

The Mad Viking said:


> Defense?
> Will he defend as well as Wally Szerbiak?
> 
> Athleticism?
> ...


Don't you want to compare him to Mike Miller, or Matt Harpring? Aren't there more white players out there that are exact indicators of what Ammo will be in the NBA?


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

JuniorNoboa said:


> Remember this factor also made him cry with two seconds left in the game. His lack of composure concerns me more then his heart.


I said it before but it bears repeating...

I'd rather have a good player that cares than a great player that doesn't.

The last thing I'm concerned about with Ammo is the mental part of his game.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Flush said:


> Draftexpress.com's AMMO workout:
> 
> http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1327
> 
> ...


C'mon in, Flush. The water is nice.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

ballocks said:


> i guess it makes sense, but think about it: does that mean that adam had nothing to gain by attending this workout? if so, i simply give him points for that- he has nothing to gain ("who cares that he can score against some nobody pf"), everything to lose ("some nobody pf was able to get a hand in almost every shot") and he still does it.


LOL, ballocks. What the hell are you trying to say? You lost me.

People reading too much into whether he works out with a team, or not. It isn't that significant. In 2004, Josh Smith's camp were trying to schedule a workout against Luol Deng, but his people didn't want to risk it. Deng has turned out OK. I don't think it speaks that loud about a player's competitiveness, or what not.

And for all these people clamoring over Adam Morrison's "intensity".. what about Tyrus Thomas. Now, I am not much of a fan of either of the two players. But TT looked like he was about to eat Coach K, after the Duke game. Pretty intense player himself.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

kirk_2003 said:


> We'll see I guess when they workout together.



As a person, AM is automatically better. Gay is just another Darius Miles.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Morrison is slightly better now, but when it's all said and done you won't even be able to mention him in the same sentence as Gay.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

vigilante said:


> Morrison is slightly better now, but when it's all said and done you won't even be able to mention him in the same sentence as Gay.


only if Gay goes to the raptors.
AMMO can motivate himself.
Gay cannot, but with the help of Sam Mitchell, and his former teammate CV3, he can become a star


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

can not? you're saying that rudy gay can not motivate himself? 

slow down. gay could very well end up the hardest worker in this group.

i don't know these prospects as well as i'd like but i like the mental pictures i'm deriving. 

morrison is going to be a pretty money player. he's going to be a very good small forward. if i drafted him, i wouldn't trade him for rashard lewis. right now he's my pick for ROY. he can come in and provide motion on offense, shots created and shots finished. i think he'll be a better passer than expected and has better athletic potential than most expect. hate to have to say it but he's going to be a great white player.

thing that is scary about rudy gay is that even as a rookie, he could be just as effective. gay isn't raw like gerald wallace coming out of alabama. gay is a calhoun product that has been educated and probably somewhat restrained at uconn. his shot is apparantly coming along very nicely and we've seen the difference that this can make with elite athletes. massive defensive potential. he's not going to lead the team but neither does tayshaun prince.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

speedythief said:


> Don't you want to compare him to Mike Miller, or Matt Harpring? Aren't there more white players out there that are exact indicators of what Ammo will be in the NBA?


Ok, Jalen Rose.

Although Jalen is a better passer, they're pretty similar. Jalen hits clutch shots, and is a crafty scorer in a variety of ways; plus he can't defend a tree stump either.


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## l2owen (Apr 24, 2006)

The Mad Viking said:


> Ok, Jalen Rose.
> 
> Although Jalen is a better passer, they're pretty similar. Jalen hits clutch shots, and is a crafty scorer in a variety of ways; plus he can't defend a tree stump either.


jalen rose has nowhere near the shooting ability, basketball iq, desire, leadership skills... very bad comparison.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

vigilante said:


> Morrison is slightly better now, but when it's all said and done you won't even be able to mention him in the same sentence as Gay.


as Gay will be a bust.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by *Speedythief !*
> 
> Don't you want to compare him to Mike Miller, or Matt Harpring? Aren't there more white players out there that are exact indicators of what Ammo will be in the NBA?


can't think of any more white comparisons, but how about.....

Glen Robinson
6'7 forward
93-94 - averaged 30.3 PPG (Purdue)

Adam Morrison
6'8 forward
05-06 - averaged 28.1 PPG (Gonzaga)

A Glen Robinson career isn't bad, but as soon as the already slow footspeed decreases, an average veteran player is what is left over....... ie// Glen Robinson


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by *blowuptheraptors !*
> 
> As a person, AM is automatically better. Gay is just another Darius Miles.


ouch, not Darius Miles

I'd say a more athletically gifted James Posey, with the potential to be an AK-47 type
not a go-to scorer, but an important piece of the puzzle.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

Gay isnt Skinny
dont throw mean words around (like miles and darius)


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## wavedashkoala (May 24, 2006)

I'm a Morrison fan myself.

But would drafting him make CV expendable?
I really like CV at the 3 spot, he brings great rebounding (especially on the offensive board), and for the most part, I feel that he's a better 3 on our team (and arguably the better 3 over all tham AM).

However, AM is a great clutch player. He's the type of player that you want to take the last shot of a close game, and in that regard, may be a better fit for us. We need all the help we can get finish out games.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

What separates Morrison from Rose and Robinson is that he is a ****ing hard worker and has the right mindset for success. Robinson and Rose, besides being unenthusiastic defenders, were chronic underachievers after being drafted. Morrison is already an overachiever.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

wavedashkoala said:


> I'm a Morrison fan myself.
> 
> But would drafting him make CV expendable?
> I really like CV at the 3 spot, he brings great rebounding (especially on the offensive board), and for the most part, I feel that he's a better 3 on our team (and arguably the better 3 over all tham AM).
> ...


he could play the 2


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

l2owen said:


> jalen rose has nowhere near the shooting ability, basketball iq, desire, leadership skills... very bad comparison.


Uh, no.

You're looking at Jalen after a lot of miles on the tank. And you're looking at ammo with love in your eyes. I'll give ammo an edge in shooting, but Jalen has a high hoops IQ, desire, and leadership skills. And he doesn't cry on the court, either. They are both very clever scorers, who can shoot the trey, or mid-range, and have an vast arsenal of interior moves that allows them to get shots off in heavy traffic. Both are clutch. Neither have great athleticism, nor are they good defenders. And to compensate for not being quite as good a shooter, Jalen is a much better passer. 

We'll see how being the big fish in a small pond translates to the NBA. But this kid is absolutely not the next Larry Bird.


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## l2owen (Apr 24, 2006)

The Mad Viking said:


> Uh, no.
> 
> You're looking at Jalen after a lot of miles on the tank. And you're looking at ammo with love in your eyes. I'll give ammo an edge in shooting, but Jalen has a high hoops IQ, desire, and leadership skills. And he doesn't cry on the court, either. They are both very clever scorers, who can shoot the trey, or mid-range, and have an vast arsenal of interior moves that allows them to get shots off in heavy traffic. Both are clutch. Neither have great athleticism, nor are they good defenders. And to compensate for not being quite as good a shooter, Jalen is a much better passer.
> 
> We'll see how being the big fish in a small pond translates to the NBA. But this kid is absolutely not the next Larry Bird.


wrong again . 

leadership skills... like the ones he showed while fighting with isiah thomas in indy? the only thing that he proved was that he COULDNT lead the pacers once the team was broken up after their eastern confrence runs at the title with larry bird ... the leadership skills that got him run out of chicago.. or the invisible leadership he brought to toronto? or maybe the leadership skills that got him on the bench in new york after a handful of games? jalen rose is a great character no mistake about it , but he is NOT A LEADER. in any way shape or form. hes the cool kid everyone wants to be around, 110 % yes. however he is NOT the guy who bleeds himself to death trying to win. adam is that type of person. 

the crying thing is overblown, did you watch jordan break down after he wont the championship , when he came back after his fathers death? he layed on the basketball court face down with tears in his eyes. take the crying thing up with michael jordan . i dont care for the reasons, if the greatest competitor on earth can have break down moments on camera in front of the world adam should be allowed too at 21 years of age losing the biggest game of his life. 



and by better passer do you mean having a humongous turnover rate compared to assists? Jalens carrer assists to turnover is 4 : 2.34 , thats a bit less than thats somewhere along 1.7 ast per to that doesnt say amazing passing skills . and his iq.. ergh did you watch the raptor games with jalen? when he would run down the court and jack up a shot with 3 defenders on him while Bosh is in the post screaming for the ball? and all this time i thought peopel got smarter with age....

jalen took more dumb shots that mike james, and even fewer of his shots went in. jalens game does not say IQ. it says selfish. what he was really smart at was attacking every rook that came his way. that he was good at. defensively hes a complete idiot. staying behidn to argue with the reffs while the other team was already up the court. 

Jalens IQ is nowhere near Adam's at the same age, adam still has years of nba learning to do . desire and jalen dont go in the same sentence.. did you forget how mitchell had to bench him not once but twice to light a fire under his ***?? Jalen's desire and passion are nowhere near what adam brings to the table. its not even close. he has desire to whine , complain, and be in front of a camera. yes he does have desire to do that. 

in the end jalen has nowhere near the iq of an adam morisson. nowhere the heart. he says the right things to the camera but that doesnt translate to good things on the bball court. who has jalen rose ever led ? his non existant leadership skills got traded after two years in denver to indiana. he wasnt the leader on the veteran indiana team with veteran heavy reggie miller, AD and DD, rick smits and larry bird that went to the finals. he certainly wasnt a leader in chicago, those guys were extatic at getting rid of him . toronto said good riddance to him only after a few years. 

oh ps. larry bird cried when indiana was beat in the nba finals. he must suck too!!


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## l2owen (Apr 24, 2006)

speedythief said:


> What separates Morrison from Rose and Robinson is that he is a ****ing hard worker and has the right mindset for success. Robinson and Rose, besides being unenthusiastic defenders, were chronic underachievers after being drafted. Morrison is already an overachiever.



agreed . jalen rose had a fantastic physical skillset which he never utilized or used to his fullest potential because he was either just too lazy or he didnt want to, or he had other priorities . he cruised with his great skillset/physical talents . he could have been one of the greats,but he didnt even come close. 

Adam on the other hand has limited physical tools which he has used to excel beyond even the most atheletic people in the ncaa to already become one of the best NCAA players to come out in the last decade. all that while being a type one diabetic. thats desire . thats heart. thats a guy i want on our team so all the athletic beasts can look at him and say , wow , if this guy can do it while being so limited ... then i could probably be even better if i worked just as hard. putting in that volcano of desire and passion in with the rest of our youth is probably the best thing we could hope for . its going to encourage and motivate our young guys. your leader has to be your best worker. adams workethic is unsurpassed by anyone in the draft class, or anyone on the raptors . CV could take some lessons from adam in the heart dept, put adams heart in cvs body and you have yourself a superstar. thats the kind of influence we need in our locker room. a guy who is gonna come in, shake things up , yell at people for dragging their asses, and they will appreciate it . if anyones played basketball on an organized level all i can say is that the best motivation comes from the peers on the court, not the coach yelling from the sidelines. i want the guy who has a lions heart in a limited body ( think of it as the rudy motivation. people see that hes not the most physically intimidating, heck hes even goofy looking sometimes, but they see that with heart anyone can do anything ). the raptors dont need mcgrady-like atheletes who have no heart. its a waste.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

l2owen said:


> agreed . jalen rose had a fantastic physical skillset which he never utilized or used to his fullest potential because he was either just too lazy or he didnt want to, or he had other priorities . he cruised with his great skillset/physical talents . he could have been one of the greats,but he didnt even come close.
> 
> Adam on the other hand has limited physical tools which he has used to excel beyond even the most atheletic people in the ncaa to already become one of the best NCAA players to come out in the last decade. all that while being a type one diabetic. thats desire . thats heart. thats a guy i want on our team so all the athletic beasts can look at him and say , wow , if this guy can do it while being so limited ... then i could probably be even better if i worked just as hard. putting in that volcano of desire and passion in with the rest of our youth is probably the best thing we could hope for . its going to encourage and motivate our young guys. your leader has to be your best worker. adams workethic is unsurpassed by anyone in the draft class, or anyone on the raptors . CV could take some lessons from adam in the heart dept, put adams heart in cvs body and you have yourself a superstar. thats the kind of influence we need in our locker room. a guy who is gonna come in, shake things up , yell at people for dragging their asses, and they will appreciate it . if anyones played basketball on an organized level all i can say is that the best motivation comes from the peers on the court, not the coach yelling from the sidelines. i want the guy who has a lions heart in a limited body ( think of it as the rudy motivation. people see that hes not the most physically intimidating, heck hes even goofy looking sometimes, but they see that with heart anyone can do anything ). the raptors dont need mcgrady-like atheletes who have no heart. its a waste.


I agree...but I do think that CV is going in the right direction. Adam might just be the guy to help him get over the top!


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

l2owen said:


> wrong again .
> 
> leadership skills... like the ones he showed while fighting with isiah thomas in indy? the only thing that he proved was that he COULDNT lead the pacers once the team was broken up after their eastern confrence runs at the title with larry bird ... the leadership skills that got him run out of chicago.. or the invisible leadership he brought to toronto? or maybe the leadership skills that got him on the bench in new york after a handful of games? jalen rose is a great character no mistake about it , but he is NOT A LEADER. in any way shape or form. hes the cool kid everyone wants to be around, 110 % yes. however he is NOT the guy who bleeds himself to death trying to win. adam is that type of person.
> 
> ...


Neither bird nor mj cried when there was still time on the clock. Or stood around in backcourt where he gave the team no chance to pass it too him for a prayer, so instead Batista had to launch it.

You call Jalen selfish? You want to compare shot attempts to assists with ammo? Of course he took some questionable shots, especially in his last season with the Raps. That does not reflect on his whole career. 

You can't compare what Jalen has already done in the NBA to what ammo did in the NCAA. It's not comparable. Jalen went to the NCAA final twice in 3 years in college. How many did ammo go to? Jalen was a 20ppg 4apg 6rpg NCAA player, and in his prime was BETTER than that in the NBA. Bleat all you want, but at the end of the day, I wouldn't put money on ammo having better career numbers than Jalen, or ever having a season to compare with Jalen best, 20ppg 6apg 5rpg as a 6-8 PG.

I hope you stick around a couple years on this forum so we can talk again.

So who is your "comparable" for ammo?


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

The Mad Viking said:


> So who is your "comparable" for ammo?


Does anybody have to have one?
Does it make it easier to draft someone if they mirror an existing NBA'er?
These comparisons rarely (never?) come true, anyways.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

hybrid of rip hamilton and dirk? seems about right to me. 

as for whether he can play the 2 spot, if Charlie's on the other wing i'd be inclined to say no (though you never know what a coach can do with all that length) but alongside Mo or Joey he'd be fine of course. He shouldn't be covering the speedier wing on the opposiving team anyways.


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## MentalPowerHouse (Oct 9, 2003)

I think he is the best player in the draft. He is also the safest bet out of all the top players. I mean safest bet in that there is no doubt in my mind this guy will annualy put up atleast 20-25 ppg every year, with the potential to be one of the top scorers in the league. 

Best fit be damned, draft the superstars and sign the role players not the other way around. With Bosh and the Mustashe we will have the core of the team to fill with role players. Charlie V may be apart of that core too, or he could be traded, but there would still be minutes for him backing up PF/SF and can playing the 3 of them at the same time.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

The more I read about Morrison, the more I'm loving him.

But I'm a stubborn fool so...


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## TDrake (Jun 8, 2003)

I'll jump on the Morrison bandwagon now - I agree he's the best player available, based on superstar potential, and that's where we should go. 

With the Hoffa trade, we've all the bigs we can handle. Of course, there could be further trades before the draft, but you seldom trade big for small. I think BC may still put together a package of some of our 4's for a legitimate starting 5, but that's not easy to do. I can seriously see a trade involving CV in the works. Of course, if he trades the first pick, all bets are off.

Assuming we keep the first pick, I think Morrison is the kind of unique talent that can blend in with the rest of our roster going forward to give us a the kind of character team we want - one that'll challenge for the top spots year after year.


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## ATCQ (Jun 16, 2005)

i hope the morrison bandwagon gets t-boned by an 18-wheeler. i absolutely hate morrison.


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## l2owen (Apr 24, 2006)

The Mad Viking said:


> Neither bird nor mj cried when there was still time on the clock. Or stood around in backcourt where he gave the team no chance to pass it too him for a prayer, so instead Batista had to launch it.
> 
> You call Jalen selfish? You want to compare shot attempts to assists with ammo? Of course he took some questionable shots, especially in his last season with the Raps. That does not reflect on his whole career.
> 
> ...


well he went to the ncaa final true that, but he also had the full fab 5 around him for both of those NCAA finals. the talent level around rose at that point was waaaayy higher than what adam had to work with in gonzaga. put adam morrison on the fab 5 and im sure he would have gone to the ncaa finals each time and won every single one of them . J.rose had a much much much better supporting cast.

as for my comparison, this has already been made by some other people around here, but chris mullin is a far better comparison for adam than jalen . ><.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

While he's almost exactly the kind of player we need the most at the offensive end of the court, he's also almost exactly the kind of player we need the least at the defensive end of the court. And guess where we have the bigger problem? Pass.


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## l2owen (Apr 24, 2006)

GuelphRaptorsFan said:


> While he's almost exactly the kind of player we need the most at the offensive end of the court, he's also almost exactly the kind of player we need the least at the defensive end of the court. And guess where we have the bigger problem? Pass.


thats passing on a megastar based on need. you dont draft ON NEED. you draft on BPA. offense defense whatever . you take the best possible baller/player/soldier/star anything you want to call it. dont pass on a once in a generation player because youre looking for someone to plug the defensive hole. that is extremely short sighted.


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## ATM (Jun 23, 2003)

l2owen said:


> thats passing on a megastar based on need. you dont draft ON NEED. you draft on BPA. offense defense whatever . you take the best possible baller/player/soldier/star anything you want to call it. dont pass on a once in a generation player because youre looking for someone to plug the defensive hole. that is extremely short sighted.


Since when is Morrison a once in a generation type player? He isn't even thought of as the top player in this draft and lots of people don't even have him in their top 3 or 4.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

ATM said:


> Since when is Morrison a once in a generation type player? He isn't even thought of as the top player in this draft and lots of people don't even have him in their top 3 or 4.


He is far and away the top player in this draft, he's just not the consensus top prospect. Two different things.


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## ATM (Jun 23, 2003)

speedythief said:


> He is far and away the top player in this draft, he's just not the consensus top prospect. Two different things.


I'm a little confused as to what you mean by that. Do you mean that he is the best player right now, or he will be the best player drafted in the long run?


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

ATM said:


> I'm a little confused as to what you mean by that. Do you mean that he is the best player right now, or he will be the best player drafted in the long run?


He is the best player right now. I don't know who the best player will be looking back a decade from now, but who can?


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## ATM (Jun 23, 2003)

speedythief said:


> He is the best player right now. I don't know who the best player will be looking back a decade from now, but who can?


I don't disagree with you on that, but we all know the best pick is the one that contributes more in the long run and while that may be Morrison, I would venture a guess that Aldridge or someone else will be a better pro.


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## l2owen (Apr 24, 2006)

ATM said:


> I don't disagree with you on that, but we all know the best pick is the one that contributes more in the long run and while that may be Morrison, I would venture a guess that Aldridge or someone else will be a better pro.



how is aldrige going to be a better pro when he couldnt even dominate the NCAA with his far superior athleticisim to Adam's? it doesnt make sense that all of the sudden lamarcus will dominate nbaers when he had a hard enough time dominating mediocre NCAAer.... while adam blasted anyone who tried to guard him straight to hell . lamarcus is just as old / experienced , has more athleticism , and has faced weaker defense at his position than Adam did at his . lamarcus was never double and triple teamed with as much ferocity as Adam was. all signs point to lamarcus NOT having more success in the nba than Adam .


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

l2owen said:


> how is aldrige going to be a better pro when he couldnt even dominate the NCAA with his far superior athleticisim to Adam's? it doesnt make sense that all of the sudden lamarcus will dominate nbaers when he had a hard enough time dominating mediocre NCAAer.... while adam blasted anyone who tried to guard him straight to hell . lamarcus is just as old / experienced , has more athleticism , and has faced weaker defense at his position than Adam did at his . lamarcus was never double and triple teamed with as much ferocity as Adam was. all signs point to lamarcus NOT having more success in the nba than Adam .


good post. :cheers:


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Ammo has jumped to the head of the line in the DraftExpress and NBADraft mocks, now.

Don't care if it's because of trade rumours; still feeling it.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

> He is far and away the top player in this draft, he's just not the consensus top prospect. Two different things.


I think thats clearly a stretch. He's an almost completely one-dimensional player, he's not even trying to pretend he's interested in playing defense. You can get away with being one-dimensional at the college level, its considerably harder to do so at the NBA level. Aldridge was on the Defensive All-America team for CollegeInsider.com. Thomas is a great shot-blocker, is very athletic and is a great rebounder. Roy can guard three positions effectively. Morrison might still be the top player in the draft despite being so one dimensional, depending on what a given team is looking for, but to say that he's far and away the top player is absurd.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

GuelphRaptorsFan said:


> I think thats clearly a stretch. He's an almost completely one-dimensional player, he's not even trying to pretend he's interested in playing defense. You can get away with being one-dimensional at the college level, its considerably harder to do so at the NBA level. Aldridge was on the Defensive All-America team for CollegeInsider.com. Thomas is a great shot-blocker, is very athletic and is a great rebounder. Roy can guard three positions effectively. Morrison might still be the top player in the draft despite being so one dimensional, depending on what a given team is looking for, but to say that he's far and away the top player is absurd.


Redick won the Naismith and Wooden awards but you swap those two players, with Morrison getting the Dukie attention and Redick playing for the small-school warriors, and Ammo is winning both those awards.

Calling the USBWA co-player of the year and the Naismith/Wooden runner-up the best college player "absurd" challenges the meaning of the word "absurd" which, ironically, is absurd.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Wow. If we pick Morrison, I'm killing myself immediately..


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

speedythief said:


> He is the best player right now. I don't know who the best player will be looking back a decade from now, but who can?


I would probably call Morrison the best player right now. There are just too many guys with (much) higher upside. Adam is not going to get a hell of a lot better.


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## Flush (Jul 25, 2005)

This argument is being argued from two different perspectives.

1) Morrison as an NCAA player

2) Morrison as an NBA prospect

Morrison is arguably the best NCAA player in this draft, the relevant question IMO is; Is Morrison the best NBA prospect? 

For once in my life I have no opinion. I'm very glad we have a capable GM to make this decision.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

More importantly, is Adam the best NBA prospect for our team? 

He certainly could be; i think he's going to be a fine NBA player, around the Michael Redd level I'd guess. 

But look at the primary factors for us-

1) Defense- I don't think Adam is going to be as bad as advertised but he's certainly never making an all-defensive team. We NEED a renaissance in the defensive end of the court and Ammo certainly isn't going to take us to the next level. If we're getting a player that will push Charlie to PF and Bosh to C, I want the guy to have freak defensive potential.

2) Offense- I guess he'd fit in, though I don't really see him as a true run and gun/dunk player. In the half court, he's always going to be money but will he ever maximize his potential when you're going to Bosh so frequently? I know Mitchell might not be here for much longer but he's point guard/frontcourt intensive and hasn't displayed all that much offball movement to this point. 

That said, Morrison would be fine. I've been coveting a wing play-maker since Vince left. He fits nicely on the wing with Joey and Mo. He certainly can't be left to double team Bosh. He's got the heart and Bball IQ to fit in perfectly. I could certainly see us making playoffs if we were to draft him at #1.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

SkywalkerAC said:


> More importantly, is Adam the best NBA prospect for our team?
> 
> He certainly could be; i think he's going to be a fine NBA player, around the Michael Redd level I'd guess.
> 
> ...




reading your post, one thing jumps to mind.


With Bosh as our #1 option on offense and CV who dropped 48, thus proving he is reliable on offense, he should be #2 as Mike James doesn't seem to be staying.

I don't expect Adammo to be our #1 or 2 offensive option, not over Bosh and I hope not over CV (who by the way, I think should be our #1 option over Bosh, he has shown he has better a better offense, but that's besides the point).

thus, have such a "great" offensive player who has weak defense is beneficial to us how? I think he'll be our 4th option behind mo pete even, and if he is able to get to #3, that's cool, but no way he will be #1 or 2 with the raps I think.


so why do we need him? His D will ALWAYS suck due to his 40 years old legs.


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## wavedashkoala (May 24, 2006)

I would actually argue that Morrison could be at least a second scoring option on our team. From what I see, running an offence through him could make Bosh look a whole lot better as well.

When Morrison was on Gonzaga, he was causing all kinds of problems for defenses, giving Batista open looks on almost every position. The way I see it, is that Morrison is the type of player that can score a ton of points, and can play relatively well while double teamed. Bosh has better offensive outings when he's got a defender iso-ed.

But thats considering that Morrison's game translates into the NBA.

I also don't see what the huge fuss is about not being a great defender. How many guys do you see as being lock down defenders in their first year? Defending is only partly about foot speed and lateral movement, a big part of it is ball IQ. The only problem that I can see is having a coach that feels defense can't be taught.


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## l2owen (Apr 24, 2006)

wavedashkoala said:


> I would actually argue that Morrison could be at least a second scoring option on our team. From what I see, running an offence through him could make Bosh look a whole lot better as well.
> 
> When Morrison was on Gonzaga, he was causing all kinds of problems for defenses, giving Batista open looks on almost every position. The way I see it, is that Morrison is the type of player that can score a ton of points, and can play relatively well while double teamed. Bosh has better offensive outings when he's got a defender iso-ed.
> 
> ...



the big issue here is the type of defense being played. Larry Bird for instance was never a good man to man defender. going one on one he was not a defensive stopped. much like adam . however what larry bird was really really good at was playing TEAM defense, and ANTICIPATION of what the defender was going to do . he could see offensive sets play out before the other team already started them and would assert himself and his whole team to match that. 

the similarity between bird and adam is this. neither of them were or ever will be ( in case of adam) one to one defensive stoppers ala AI2 or the old Rodman. but what the two do share is an incredibly high basketball IQ , incredible game instincts and the ability to see plays happen before they do . adam will have no problem playing team defense. hes got the smarts, hes got the wingspan to play off of players, and hes got some nice shotblocking to rely on from charlie v ( who i think has the potential to be a fantastic blocking machine if he trains himself right ) and of course chris bosh who is extremely atheletic and will get you a good ammount of blocks . in the nba team defense is the most important , not individual defense. especially with the new zones that allow teams to cover up a players weakness.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Why the **** are people even mentioning Adam Morrison in the same sentence as Larry Bird?

Defence? Bird averaged nearly 2 steals a game and a block a game in the NBA, until he got hurt at age 32. 

Morrison can't even average 1 steal and 1/2 a block in a weak conference in the NCAA.

In college Bird led the nation in scoring AND rebounding - 30ppg and 15 rpg.

Bird was an all-star every season he played (excepting his injury season where he played just 6 games. He was MVP 3 straight times.

Adam Morrison is just a scorer in the NCAA. A fantastic scorer, but that's it. He rebounded ok, and in no way projects to be a rebounder in the NBA. He will probably get more assists in the NBA than he did in college, because he will have more options to pass to, and better defenders covering him. But there is nothing to suggest he will EVER approach Bird's WORST season: at age 35, crippled with a herniated disk, he was 20 -10 with 7 apg, and better steal/block numbers than Morrison had last year with 'Zaga!

Just say NO to Bird comparisons.


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## no_free_baskets (Jan 4, 2006)

l2owen said:


> the big issue here is the type of defense being played. Larry Bird for instance was never a good man to man defender. going one on one he was not a defensive stopped. much like adam . however what larry bird was really really good at was playing TEAM defense, and ANTICIPATION of what the defender was going to do . he could see offensive sets play out before the other team already started them and would assert himself and his whole team to match that.
> 
> the similarity between bird and adam is this. neither of them were or ever will be ( in case of adam) one to one defensive stoppers ala AI2 or the old Rodman. but what the two do share is an incredibly high basketball IQ , incredible game instincts and the ability to see plays happen before they do . adam will have no problem playing team defense. hes got the smarts, hes got the wingspan to play off of players, and hes got some nice shotblocking to rely on from charlie v ( who i think has the potential to be a fantastic blocking machine if he trains himself right ) and of course chris bosh who is extremely atheletic and will get you a good ammount of blocks . in the nba team defense is the most important , not individual defense. especially with the new zones that allow teams to cover up a players weakness.



having a high bball iq at one end of the court doesnt neccesarily translate to the other end...steve nash has a high bball iq on the offense end but does that mean he has a high one on the def. end too? obviously not...similarly, b. wallace has an extremely high bball iq on the def. end, but does that mean he has a high off. bball iq as well? nope...

team d is overblown on the t.o board...i dont think its disputable that the majority of the time (at least 70+% imo) teams are running a man d in the nba, so how does team d become more important then how an ind. d's up a guy one-on-one when thats the majority of defense the guy will be playing?

also, to play effective team d, yes you must have a coach that can implement and make you believe in that system, but you must also have the players that have the sufficient defensive bball acumen (i.e being at the right place at the right time, when to switch, etc, etc...) and sufficient skills to make said system work...the raptors simply put, dont have those players...who on the raps do you think has a high bball iq on the defensive end and/or are good def. players?? i personally cant count too many....


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## no_free_baskets (Jan 4, 2006)

yeah, the morrison bird thing is kind of crazy...morrison is good, but bird is one of the all time greats...youre talking about probably the best shooter of all time plus probably also one of the best passing sf ever...he was just a sick passer...

believe me, if morrison was a young bird, he would have been easily considered #1 months ago...


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

> Calling the USBWA co-player of the year and the Naismith/Wooden runner-up the best college player "absurd" challenges the meaning of the word "absurd" which, ironically, is absurd.


I didn't say calling him the "best college player" is absurd, I said that calling him "far and away" the "top player in the draft" is absurd. In case you missed the memo, being the best college player in the draft doesn't make you the best NBA prospect.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

GuelphRaptorsFan said:


> I didn't say calling him the "best college player" is absurd, I said that calling him "far and away" the "top player in the draft" is absurd. In case you missed the memo, being the best college player in the draft doesn't make you the best NBA prospect.


I wrote the memo!



speedythief said:


> He is far and away the top player in this draft, he's just not the consensus top prospect. Two different things.


http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3648015&postcount=77



As for him being the best "far and away" Tom Cruise-style, obviously that's JMO. But I personally think he is miles ahead of guys like Aldridge, Gay, Roy, etc., who are all good players who have all underachieved to various degrees. The second best player on the Zags was JP-freaking-Batista and Ammo almost got them to the Elite Eight. Thomas would be the obvious exception.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

> As for him being the best "far and away" Tom Cruise-style, obviously that's JMO. But I personally think he is miles ahead of guys like Aldridge, Gay, Roy, etc., who are all good players who have all underachieved to various degrees. The second best player on the Zags was JP-freaking-Batista and Ammo almost got them to the Elite Eight. Thomas would be the obvious exception.


Fair enough. I don't personally agree, though. Perhaps its my dislike of one-dimensional players. One thing the Zags did have was a team that could let him get away with coasting on defense. I would agree that Gay and Aldridge underachieved but I don't personally think Roy did (he's a natural distributor, nor a natural scorer), Williams took his team within a hair's breath of the Final Four and did it in solid fashion all the way along. Is Morrison the best offensive threat right now? Absolutely. Is he the best player? I have my doubts. Is he far and away the best player. No, not in my mind. All he'd have to do is *try* to play defense on a consistent basis and I might agree, but I haven't seen that yet.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

^ He's trying. Between workouts he's been putting in hours with Devean George and Danny Granger, mostly trying to fine-tune getting his shot off against long, athletic NBA players, and defending them in turn.

You can read about it here. Is it spin? Partly, but regardless, he's trying.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

^ Well, he might *say* he's trying, but it doesn't sound like the critics agree:



> One thing that we certainly did not come away impressed with from this workout was Morrison's defense.


The full article is 
here


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

^ And while we're quoting DraftExpress, here's another one:



> It's easy to forget in all this mess that Brandon Roy is still the same player he's always been, in our mind the most polished and NBA ready player in this draft


To be fair, "most polished and NBA ready player" doesn't really translate seamlessly to "top player", but it certainly makes an argument for it, working on the assumption that "top player", being differentiated from "top prospect", means the top player right now.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

The knocks on Roy, besides being a little smaller than people would like, are about the same as the knocks on Josh Howard when he came out, but obviously the 2003 and 2006 drafts are hard to compare. And Howard has turned into a very good pro.


Anyways, one thing worth mentioning is that Morrison is also the only natural vocal leader of the top picks, which is something our team sorely lacks.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

speedythief said:


> The knocks on Roy, besides being a little smaller than people would like, are about the same as the knocks on Josh Howard when he came out, but obviously the 2003 and 2006 drafts are hard to compare. And Howard has turned into a very good pro.
> 
> 
> Anyways, one thing worth mentioning is that Morrison is also the only natural vocal leader of the top picks, which is something our team sorely lacks.


For most people, being a vocal leader is only possible when you are the best player on a team.

As soon as Morrison joins the NBA, he will have to shut his feathery lip the hell up.

Part of projecting how a player will do in the NBA (or in any new situation) is looking at how he was used in the old one.

Morrison was the go-to guy. He was expected to take the ball and make the shot. And he was very, very good at it.

Rudy Gay worked within a structured UConn system. He had rules to abide by, when to drive when to pass, when to shoot. It can be your opinion that he underachieved, and you might be right. But it is more likely the role and the system.

Or do you think that Boris Diaw and Raja Bell were simply chronic underachievers until this year, and suddenly started trying?


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

^ I don't think Morrison will suddenly stop trying to be a leader. If anything Bosh and the rest of the team would like for someone to take that role.

And I do see him having a similar playing role in the NBA, especially on our team, or Portland, or Charlotte. I think he could eventually develop into our go-to scorer.


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## McFurious (Mar 25, 2004)

Ive been a Bargani fan, but only recently have I opened up to the idea of drafting Adam Morrison. I think he can be a 2nd verison of a Carmelo Anthony, a scoring machine our 2nd option. Also, we lack depth at the SF position so he also fits a team need, which allows us to be able to fit him into our starting 5.

Pg- Calderon
Sg- Mopete
Sf- Morrison
Pf- Charlie
C- Bosh


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## Gkwizzle (May 24, 2006)

how is he different from keith van horn ?


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## l2owen (Apr 24, 2006)

ok people you have misudnderstood my comparison of adam to larry . obviously he will in no way be as good as larry bird. i am only comparing their defenses. larry averaged two steals a game by using his braing and anticipating where the pass was going to go . he had great anticipation skills. he didnt necessarily use his quickness. there is no reason for adam not to develop a good defensive iq and become a mediocre defender. his passing will get better, it does with age. hes a mental chess player, he looks at defences , picks them apart, and makes the right play . its only a matter of time before he learns nba offences and with experience, will become a much better defender. and team defense will ALWAYS be more important than how a single person plays defense. 

team defense utilizes everyones strengths. it is a theory that when all the parts of a unit are functioning in tune, the team as a whole becomes a better functioning unit than if everyone was to just follow their individual goals. either way , i dont think adams defense is going to be too much of a problem . again if you play the right way , play team defense, and are always helping at the right time, there is no reason why his defense should be that much of a concern.

^^ i see this same question about kvh come up in almost every thread.... im beginning to think its just to stir things up with people . its been discussed to death.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

l2owen said:


> ok people you have misudnderstood my comparison of adam to larry . obviously he will in no way be as good as larry bird. i am only comparing their defenses.


Okay. So you are comparing a guy who made the NBA All-Defensive Second Team 3 times, who average 2 spg over his entire NBA career, to a guy who managed 65 steal in 94 NCAA games in a mediocre conference. 

That makes it SO much better.



> larry averaged two steals a game by using his braing and anticipating where the pass was going to go . he had great anticipation skills. he didnt necessarily use his quickness.


You're making it worse. 



> there is no reason for adam not to develop a good defensive iq and become a mediocre defender.


Well, one might suspect that such a hard worker who will "do anything to win" might have already TRIED to work on his defense. 

Actually, when you look at his collegiate career, there are a lot of reasons to suspect that he will never be anything but a weak NBA defender.



> ...team defense will ALWAYS be more important than how a single person plays defense.
> 
> team defense utilizes everyones strengths. it is a theory that when all the parts of a unit are functioning in tune, the team as a whole becomes a better functioning unit than if everyone was to just follow their individual goals.


You're dreaming in technocolor.

Defense, unlike offense, is only as good as it's weakest link.


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## l2owen (Apr 24, 2006)

The Mad Viking said:


> Okay. So you are comparing a guy who made the NBA All-Defensive Second Team 3 times, who average 2 spg over his entire NBA career, to a guy who managed 65 steal in 94 NCAA games in a mediocre conference.
> 
> That makes it SO much better.
> 
> ...


huh how am i making it worse? have you ever watched larry play defense. his steals came of anticipating the passing lanes and knowing where the ball was going to go . that takes basketball smarts. if you know where the ball is going you dont need to be the fastest person on earth to get it. once adam gains more experience he will probably average 1+ steals per game. if you ever watched larry you would know that brains and heart was a far bigger game than his brawn .



huh how am i making it worse? have you ever watched larry play defense. his steals came of anticipating the passing lanes and knowing where the ball was going to go . that takes basketball smarts. if you know where the ball is going you dont need to be the fastest person on earth to get it. once adam gains more experience he will probably average 1+ steals per game. if you ever watched larry you would know that brains and heart was a far bigger game than his brawn .


and its obvious you have no idea what youre talking about when it comes to team defense.

this is a list of top teams in the nba and they seem to have no problem with their defense.
http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_team_statistics/sortable2.html?cnf=1&prd=1

miami - if jason williams can be a started on a good defensive team im sure adam can too.
clippers- mobley, cassel, good defenders? what? your weakest link theory has failed so far. and the clippers have been one of the top defensive teams all season.
chicago- a team thats good because they have a good defensive coach. everyone knows skiles made
defense a priority when he got to chicago and now they are an oustanding defensive team. that is what a team mentality will do for defense. everyone is accountable for their actions. 
cleveland- none of their players are supereb defenders yet they play good defense . could it be that team play helps them play better defense?
golden state-baron davis a good defender? troy murphy is a strong link to you? If troy murphy can be a starter on a top 10 defensive team that blow your argument entirely out of the water .
dallas- no great defenders. mayeb josh and marquise are good. but thats about it . but yet play great team defense as a unit.
detorit- all about team defense. rich hamilton is not a good 1v1 denfesive player. yet the team is still one of the best in defense. 

dont give me this bs like team defense doesnt matter and like you know what youre talking about .
wow your point about team defense is really bad.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

l2owen said:


> huh how am i making it worse? have you ever watched larry play defense. his steals came of anticipating the passing lanes and knowing where the ball was going to go . that takes basketball smarts. if you know where the ball is going you dont need to be the fastest person on earth to get it. once adam gains more experience he will probably average 1+ steals per game. if you ever watched larry you would know that brains and heart was a far bigger game than his brawn .


Larry Bird was ****ing quick. And smart, and long.

Knowing where a ball will go doesn't help you steal it if you aren't quick enough to get there; and if you're not quick, you can't afford to gamble because you have no chance to recover.

Smarts alone gets you very few steals.

I'm curious what slow players you can think of that average 2 steals per game.


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## l2owen (Apr 24, 2006)

The Mad Viking said:


> Larry Bird was ****ing quick. And smart, and long.
> 
> Knowing where a ball will go doesn't help you steal it if you aren't quick enough to get there; and if you're not quick, you can't afford to gamble because you have no chance to recover.
> 
> ...



huh who ever said larry bird was slow? and who said adam was slow. larry wasnt slow. but he wasnt the best athelete either. neither is adam. stay with me here. both have amazing game instincts and both can use anticipation and their high basketball iq to play the passing lanes and get steals. adam may not average 2 setals per game , but he sure as hell has the ability to learn how to play the passing lanes, learn offenses and their schemes, and adjust his defense to better intercept the ball. and dont make larry sound out to be like some sort of super freak quick athelete. he wasnt. he was the best because of his heart and hustle, size wise he wasnt . larry was the best because he was smarter thane veryone else and beacuse he had more desire than everyone else.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

The scuttlebutt around the ACC is that Ammo might be the Raptors choice... but if ever there was a time to spread false rumours it would be now.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

ok.. now i may shock you all when i compare him to....
Melo!


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